A reader writes:
I have been offered a promotion to a manager position, recommended from my current manager. He has already begun to train me in doing his duties, since he is leaving for a different job. He has already told the owners that he recommended me becoming his replacement. I have asked him several times about discussing my pay and benefits package, but he keeps giving me the same answer: They are in still in the talks about final approval, etc. Now he has started his new job, and I am currently scheduled to manage the store, without having actually sat down with the owners to discuss my salary. I’m not sure how I should approach this. I like this company, but the way they are approaching this has me worried.
I get a surprising number of variations of this letter, all essentially saying, “I’m taking a new job or a promotion, but we haven’t yet nailed down the salary.” This makes me a little weepy.
Here’s the deal: If you accept a job without discussing salary, you have relinquished your negotiating power. You’re essentially saying, “I’ll do this job for anything you want to offer me.” In your case, you might not have formally accepted but I’d bet you anything that they think you’ve accepted through your actions – if you start training for the job and acting as if you’re going to be doing the job, and salary hasn’t yet been discussed, your employer is going to assume that you’re taking the job, regardless.
You have to talk salary before you start acting as if you’re taking the job. (Or at least you do if you care about getting paid a certain amount.)
In this case, before you got too far into the training, you should have said, “I’m definitely interested in this promotion, but before we go too far, I’d like to discuss the salary.” When your boss told you that the owners were still “in talks” about final approval, you’d then say, “I understand. Please let me know once they’re ready to talk with me about salary. If you’d like me to train in the meantime, I certainly can, but I want to make sure that it’s clear that I can’t accept the position until we’ve discussed the salary.”
And then — and this is important — you need to stay clear in your own head that the position is not a done deal, because you haven’t discussed salary yet. If you start thinking of it as final — because you’re training, after all, and everyone is talking to you like this will be your new job — then you will start thinking of it as final, and that will make it much harder for you to stand up for yourself when salary finally does get discussed … because you need to be willing to walk away if the salary isn’t right.
And that’s the key thing here: You need to be willing to walk away if you can’t come to terms on salary. Your employer needs to know that you’re willing to walk away, and you need to know it too. Otherwise there really isn’t a salary negotiation at all; it’s just them telling you what you’ll be getting paid, and you accepting it. Even if it’s no salary increase at all.
So, as for what to do now … Contact the owners or whoever you currently report to now that your boss is gone and say, “I’m very interested in taking on Bob’s role, which he’s trained me for, but we haven’t yet had a chance to formally discuss it. I’d like to talk with you about the terms of the offer, including salary. When can we sit down and speak?”
If they put you off and push you to start doing the new job now, you need to hold firm: “I’m not comfortable taking on a new job without discussing the terms, such as salary. I want to make sure that we’re able to reach an agreement on salary before I start in that role. When can we have that discussion?”
If you let them push you into starting work now, you will have very little negotiating power at whatever point they do decide to talk to you — because you’ll have already shown that you’re willing to do the work at your current rate of pay.
Always, always, always talk about salary before agreeing to a new job or promotion.
{ 49 comments… read them below or add one }
So on a somewhat related note, what if you get promoted and you have no idea it’s coming until it’s unveiled in a department-wide meeting (in a room of about 70 people)? And you have no choice but to accept the promotion or leave and there is no opportunity for discussion? Also, you weren’t invited to the meeting where the promotion was unveiled. Not that this happened to me or anything.
Immediately after the meeting, you go to whoever’s the appropriate person and say, “That’s great news. When can we sit down and hash out salary and other changes?” And if they look at you blankly, you say, “I’m really interested in taking the promotion, but of course we’ll need to work that stuff out before I can say yes.”
Yeah, that’s the problem. I had to say yes unless I wanted to be out of a job. And then was told there is no room in the budget for additional compensation, etc. Yes, I’m looking elsewhere.
Ah, in that case, you accept that it’s a changed condition of your job and you start looking elsewhere if you don’t want it (as you’ve done).
So it’s not really a promotion just a lot more duties and responsibilities. Genius way to treat your employees.
Piper, I feel for you. I was in a similar situation several years ago. It’s like management knew they were asking something unreasonable, so they pull it out in a public meeting so that you’re so taken aback that you can’t do anything but say yes. (And you may be too much in shock afterward to do what Alison suggests below, which I think is a great idea if one has the presence of mind — I certainly didn’t.)
Good luck in your search — my way around this dilemma was to leave the company, and I hope you can do that soon too.
Piper, I work for a company that is notorious for calling people into meetings to say “we are moving you to X position, effective this day” with little to no room for discussion. I think I got moved around once every six months there for a while.
Our boss is fond of quoting the Good to Great book about putting people in the right seats on the bus; I refrain from sharing my thoughts on the subject, but if you’re constantly moving people around on the bus, are you sure you’ve even got the right people with you? And how often do you move everyone else around because of a few?
Again, I don’t say it, but I think it. (And I’ve actually been where I am nearly two years now, which is okay. I almost wish they’d move us around again…)
Good advice. Everyone I’ve ever known that took a promotion without discussing getting more money too…never got more money. And in my personal experience, when you start talking about wanting a promotion, they will play games until the bitter end…because they have no intentions of giving you more money, and they know you will ask for it. So no promotion.
this is actually an interesting counterpoint to the letter the other day, about feeling frustrated when you have to officially apply for an internal promotion. if you’re treated like another candidate during the application process, it also ensures you can negotiate like an external candidate would after getting hired.
I agree. But I don’t think many companies treat internal candidates the same as external when it comes to salary negotiations. They always want to look at the old salary in the old position as a jumping off point. Which I don’t think is fair.
Agreed here. I think there is a downside to being an internal candidate when it comes to salary.
This is timely, because my department head is leaving for maternity leave in 4 months and will come back in a different capacity afterwards. I’m 95% sure that I will be expected to step into her shoes–and I’m also 95% sure that they will expect me to do it at my current salary.
My company is weird in that they don’t do performance evaluations and (rumor has it) you don’t go to them about a raise. Every January, employees get a raise in their paycheck based on how the owners feel you performed over the past year. I got $.50 more per hour and was just hired in September.
In this culture, can I go to them with a “Let’s talk salary” chat? Or should I just do the work and assume they will reward me next January? So confused…
Can you talk now with your manager or department head (if they’re not the same person) about what’s likely going to be expected of you? If they say you’ll probably move into that role, say that you’re really interested in doing that but that you’d like to discuss the salary that will go along with that.
Your company may not like people asking for raises (!), but what you’re talking about here is a whole new job, and it’s appropriate to negotiate salary for it just like if you were coming in to a new job from the outside.
I got a promotion all of a sudden to “Senior Title.” I had a short meeting with my manager immediately and said “Since we are in talks of moving up my position with more responsibility, what will the rest of the changes be as far as benefits and salary?” She said “um… the same….(insert taken aback expression)” So I said directly “You’re promoting me with no increase in salary.” And she said “We don’t really do that here.”
I took another position with a 40% pay increase. On my last day on my way out of the office (she had forgotten somehow I put in my 2 weeks notice with her face-to-face and in writing) She asked me why I was leaving and I said because it was because I’ll be getting a 40% pay increase and you don’t really do that here. Not my finest moment, but I was 25 and it felt so good at the time.
dude, you rock! Sounds to me like that manager (and company) had it coming!
I probably should have said something like “a better opporunity” and kept it at that. Instead I said that to her while I was walking out the door FOREVER. I felt like a total badass and then flames shot out as I exited with a Jay-Z theme song playing…
How is that not your finest moment? You explained to then that their policy of expecting senior level employees to do senior level work for junior level wages wasn’t going to cut it. There’s nothing wrong or unprofessional about that statement.
+1!
I agree!!
Agreeing!
Hurray for you! This was, if not your finest moment, one of the best. It should still feel good.
My employer “gives” you the job before you “earn” the raise. To my friends I call it “try before you buy”.
I think this is common in some cases. IME in SMBs I’ve never been officially promoted in the sense of clear delineation from one position to the next.
I am a one person department – that level of formality would be weird but perfectly normal in a larger company or department where others have the same type of roles.
For me it was always just scope creep of responsibilities and then an acknowledgement of the change in roles with raises. Title changes come when redoing the org chart and realizing the old one wasn’t descriptive of the current role. So sometimes the recognition and reward does come after you’ve proven yourself at the job.
Yeh, but like the saying goes, “why buy when you can get it for free?”
In which case, I would want to come to an agreement with the boss regarding the expectations of the new position, the qualifications necessary to be met in order to receive a raise, and the specific day on which the evaluation would happen and the pay period for which the increased salary would take effect. And I would get it all in writing (for all the reasons listed here: http://www.askamanager.org/2012/06/company-refused-to-give-me-details-of-their-job-offer-in-writing.html ).
And then I would hold them to it. If an employer is “giving” the job before you “earn” the raise, you need to ensure that they are being very clear on what “earning the raise” entails. Otherwise you’re giving them carte blanche to get higher-level work out of you for zero additional dollars in compensation.
Even under the “giving” you the job and “earning” the raise later, you can still have a discussion. Even if the discussion is if I do well and prove myself I expect that we will discuss the raise in three or six months.
I’d be leery of even doing the training without having been given the promotion first! It sounds like the OP is still waiting to hear if she actually got the job. Not only are salary/benefits being considered but so is the actual job since it’s under “final approval”.
Frankly, I would refuse to do the duties of a manager without knowing for sure I actually got the job and they were actively negotiating salary. Otherwise, you could just be the go between person they’re using for a few months while they hire another manager.
I saw you refer to academia in anther post and wondered how this negotiation process would work in this environment. In academia, we are very much expected to go above and beyond our required responsibilities and rarely encouraged to decline a request. How do you go about talking about salary for a higher position in academia when you are expected to perform what is asked of you even if it outside of your job responsibilities?
And for reference, I do like the work and find it very interesting. So, I enjoy it, am expected to do it, but am not paid to do it. And it is fairly outside of my actual duties (which I do in addition to these).
That’s actually not just academia; most jobs expect you to do things outside your job description at times, and you’re expected to do it without asking for more money. It’s when it’s an actual promotion to a new role that this stuff applies.
I’d like some clarification on this point. I work in a small start-up where we don’t really have clear job titles. We’re a pretty small team and we share lots of responsibility. Ergo, the line between “promotion” and “stuff outside what you were hired to do” is much fuzzier.
I recently was given some managerial/HR duties that I (a) really enjoy and (b) think I’m better at than what I was originally hired to do. It’s much more responsibility, and in any other workplace would be a title change for sure. But it seemed gauche to me to ask for a raise when I had just been offered one a few months prior after being with the company a short period of time. My thinking was that this would all be good evidence for a raise down the line, and ultimately I’m happy just to be in a role I feel more comfortable in. Did I sell myself short here?
I’m in academia, and I got more money with a promotion by asking (which I did belatedly, due to the confusion of the situation, but it was still successful). Like other nonprofits, academics are capable of using the mission to tacitly discourage employee requests, but there’s no reason for you to be complicit with that, assuming the situation warrants a request for a raise.
It’s not clear that this is that situation, though. For one thing, I’m not sure what you mean when you say you’re “not paid to do it.” If you’re a non-exempt employee, you must be paid for the time you’re doing it, so if you’re not–if you’re working off the clock–that’s a big problem and you need to bring that up. If you’re exempt, it probably falls under “other duties as assigned,” so you are indeed getting paid for it, you’re just not getting paid *more* for it. And as Alison notes, it’s not a good idea to ask for more money just because you were asked to take on something new, unless that something new is really a whole job that used to be done by a second person and now is added on to yours.
I don’t know how the nonprofit at which I work works regarding salary negotiations, but do know that they tend to promote people who do a great job and give them a salary bump along with that.
As far as I know, it never happens that they promote someone without also raising the pay.
That was also my experience at my old for profit firm.
Assuming you’re talking about faculty positions, rather than admin (which I don’t have much experience with), I think the implicit assumption is that the payoff for going “above and beyond” is that you get tenure – that is, a guaranteed job for the rest of your life.
Now, that said, tenure is not a guarantee before you get it – I’ve known colleagues who did everything expected of them and then some, but then politics and personalities undermined their tenure approvals – so I’m not going to say that this is the best way to handle it, and I’d argue that for a lot of people – say, adjuncts – the implied quid pro quo of free work = career advancement is pretty much broken. But it is a part of academic culture – especially at smaller institutions – so if you’re uncomfortable with it, you might need to rethink your career ambitions.
If you are tenured, then there are chances for salary increases as you move up from assistant to associate to full professor, but those are fairly spread out, and, again, you will probably have to demonstrate your “collegiality” by doing a lot of “service” work (e.g. committees, serving on student boards, etc.) that isn’t strictly part of your contracted job obligations. Welcome to academia!
But is tenure based much on service? Sure, service can’t hurt, but I keep reading about research impact, research impact, research impact as key.
Not in the smaller liberal arts colleges. Research may help get you hired, but in a place where teaching and committee work are the main activities, your willingness to pull extra weight is what persuades them to keep you around (especially since if you have a lot of publications, they may well suspect that (a) you’re slacking off in those areas, and (b) liable to jump ship for a Research I at the first chance).
And even at the big universities, which are even more competitive, if you’re a junior colleague without tenure, you’re expected to jump through hoops your senior colleagues may not be; you may teach fewer classes than your equivalents at a smaller college, but your research expectations will be correspondingly higher, and neither minimizes your service obligations. Expecting to only do the things enumerated in your job position in academia is a bit like expecting to go home at 5pm when you’re a young lawyer starting out in a big practice while all your peers are working 80-hour weeks; it’s not going to make them want to keep you around.
I should note that this is in the humanities. It’s probably different if you’re in the sciences at a Research I.
My last promotion, my boss came in and said, “I made a decision. You’re it. You have a meeting in 10 minutes.” No thinking-it-over. No salary discussion.
He had a pretty good idea that I would take the job if offered, and I had a pretty good idea that I would be getting more money, so it worked out. But still, scary.
See, but that’s a great example. You still need to say, “Great, I’m excited to talk about it. When do you have time to discuss salary?” You can’t be intimidated into not saying anything.
I’ve had a similar experiences: a manager would hand me the HR form with the title, the job level, and the salary, already processed, and say,”Congratulations! You’re promoted to Senior Whatsit! You get a raise so I’m expecting you to work longer hours.” I always wanted to say (and never dared) “Thanks so much for the new job but can you take the raise back? I’ll do a great job with my current schedule but I don’t want more hours. Your money doesn’t buy my life.” Really, you can negotiate promotions? I always thought they were orders not to be questioned: like it or lump it.
This is great info and discussion! I love being able to be prepared for these situations as they seem to happen all of the time. I’m hoping for a promotion in the next year and I will now be prepared with a professional response. Thank you!!
Hmm… this is an interesting topic, and one I’ve been lending some thought to on and off.
Our company has a practice of promoting from within whenever possible. These things generally take the form of “you are rewarded for your efforts” and then given the additional responsibility.
I wasn’t aware of this, but apparently you don’t immediately get a pay rise. You have a probation period of a few months, to see if you can handle the stuff. And only after that, do you get the monetary compensation.
Granted, I don’t know if there were any talks about the salary beforehand (and it’s quite possible there were). A lot of people have accepted this position, and they’re still in the company, years later.
What’s your take Alison? Shouldn’t they have accepted the extra responsibility under such circumstances? Or is this an acceptable approach?
I think a probationary period of 3 months or so is reasonable, especially if someone is moving departments or making some other major change in which there really is a possibility that the employee who has performed well in her current role won’t do well in the new one. But, I wouldn’t enter into this kind of arrangement without some kind of assurance in writing that, pending satisfactory performance evaluation at the end of the probationary period, I would receive a raise, and if my performance weren’t good enough, I could return to my old duties. YMMV, but that’s the kind of assurance I personally would want. (I’d also want to know that a late performance evaluation counts the same as a satisfactory one, because managers can drag that @#*& OUT!)
Seriously – THIS! If a performance review/raise is scheduled and it’s dragged out by tptb then it should be retroactive…that is a huge pet peeve of mine.
From what I heard, it was more like 6 months, as I understood. Of course the reason could be that the yearly performance evaluation happened then, and generally all salary negotiation happen during that event.
If it’s a full-on promotion to a new position, the new salary should kick in right away. You’re doing the new job, with a higher level of responsibility for that, and it’s unfair to say “we’ll see if you can handle it before we compensate you” — just like you wouldn’t say that to someone being hired for the job from the outside. If you’re not performing at the level they need in a few months, that should be addressed — but you don’t just not compensate someone for the new role until you deem they’re ready to be paid for it.
Ew yes! My department did that to me! Seven internal people went for a role, and it took them 8 (!) weeks to decide who would get the job. In the meantime, we were all trained to do the role.
8 weeks later, all seven of us were pulled into a meeting, and they explained that they’d restructured the department so that we’d all get a promotion, gave us our envelopes with salary, position description and contract, and said “you start on Monday. Bring your contract signed.” No room for negotiation, as it was exact same salary for all.
It sucked. The job changed in the restructure so we have less responsibility, so I’m bored out of my mind, and I didn’t get the chance to negotiate salary at all. :(
I was in a position once where my coworker was leaving, and, since there was no way for me to move “up”, I requested a sideways promotion by proposing the ways in which I could absorb that coworker’s job responsibilities.
Management was very agreeable to this, and dictated that they would be bumping me up to a certain amount of money which I found extremely insulting for the amount of new work I had asked to take on. I made it clear in discussion that I could not go through with the promotion for that amount, and they very quickly came up to a number that was satisfactory for the new position. So, things worked out.
It’s so important to be your own advocate in these situations because it can make a huge difference.
I was offered a promotion yesterday, we only talked about my duties in the new promotion and didn’t talk about salary. I don’t know when I should talk about my salary regarding the new position, I haven’t started and they need to find a replacement for me first, should I talk to him today?