open thread – February 20, 2015 by Alison Green on February 20, 2015 It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers. * If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :) { 1,442 comments }
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 11:01 am I work in an industry that’s very keen on having a passion for one’s work. I know it’s a much-mocked cliche, but I’ll bet well over 75% of our job listings have “passion” or “passionate” in them. In the past, I’ve absolutely been passionate about my job, showing up early and staying late and doing lots of extra stuff out of pure personal interest. There have been times I would’ve kept showing up even if they’d stopped paying me! But I’m just not in that place anymore. I show up and do my work because they pay me, but my passion for my job falls somewhere between my passion for cleaning the shower and my passion for purchasing eggs and milk. Is this just the natural trajectory of a career? Do you think not having a passion for one’s work is necessarily a bad sign, or is it just sort of most people’s reality?
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:03 am That’s a natural ebb and flow of life, I think. I’ve had that roller coaster within the same job before., from up to down to up. It’s just life, a period of time to work through. Changing jobs may help, but sticking it out may too.
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am I think not having a passion for your work is most people’s reality. In an ideal world, it would be great if everyone could be passionate about the work they do but I think the fact is, most people are passionate about earning a liveable income and benefits.
AmyNYC* February 20, 2015 at 1:02 pm To quote Mad Men, “Not every little girl gets to do what they want; the world can’t support that many ballerinas.” Sad, but true. I’m struggling with this right now, and I’m using the not passionate/dull work to focus on passions outside of work.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 1:46 pm I always joke about cross-stitching things like this on pillows, but for real, I want to commit this quote to posterity somehow, because it is perfect.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am If you’ve been at your job a long time, I can see how things could become stale. One of the best parts of my job is learning new tasks and without the challenge of tackling something new, the actual work is pretty boring. Maybe you’ve fallen into a rut because your work isn’t challenging or engaging you the way it used to. Do you think taking on a new project or learning a new skill would help?
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 1:49 pm Yeah, definitely. I really enjoy learning new stuff. I hadn’t thought about it until now, but in the past I’ve tended to be in roles that involved a lot of small projects that took a week or less. I really liked the constant turnover of knowledge and information. I’m now typically involved in long-term projects that I’m excited about initially but am heartily sick of by the time they limp to a finish. I’m not sure I’m cut out for long-life-cycle projects. That’s an interesting thing to think about. Maybe I need to look for a way to keep things fresh even as I’m slogging through these elephant-pregnancy-length projects.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 3:18 pm I went on a trip to NYC when I was in high school for Drama Club. As part of the trip, we had the opportunity to interview a couple of actors who worked on Broadway. One student asked about boredom and one of the actors said that they give the shows a theme – pirates, cowboys, etc. – and act out the show using that theme (in ways that are too subtle for the audience to notice). It became a way to keep them engaged and it almost seemed like a way to bond because it was a big, collaborative inside joke. You don’t want to create more work for yourself, but could you challenge yourself to find shortcuts, a better way of doing X, or things like that? Do the same thing, but with little twists that keep you on your toes?
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 3:45 pm I love this anecdote and am going to have to ponder this idea.
Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.* February 20, 2015 at 4:40 pm Mmmm, that might be it. I am crazy passionate about what I do and have been forever BUT, I do lots and lots of different things and I don’t do well when something oddball comes up and I have to stick to a long life cycle project for even a week. I really liked the constant turnover of knowledge and information. Describes me. It’s worth looking at if you can get that back, I think.
AnotherAlison* February 20, 2015 at 8:01 pm I completely identify with this. I spent my first 8 years on projects that lasted around a year or longer and was so burned out that I did a bunch of internal transfers within a couple years. Then I spent 6 years doing a job that was the same (but slightly different) thing every month. Now I have projects that last a few months at most. Much, much better.
Bio-Pharma* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am I’m reminded about this post (although not necessarily 100% relevant): https://www.askamanager.org/2012/04/is-it-okay-to-leave-work-right-at-5-p-m.html
SJP* February 20, 2015 at 11:33 am I’m really lucky, the company i work for are very hot on people having good work/life balance and if people are spotted staying later than their leave time managers will pop over and enquire why youre staying late and encourage you to leave it unless absolutely necessary. I usually finish at 5.30pm but had to stay til 6.20pm yesterday cause I forgot my laptop and had to return home to get it.. My ‘functional’ (unofficial) boss popped over and enquired why I was staying this late and I explained I was making up the time but they want people to generally leave when you’re supposed to. It’s really refreshing for managers to be making sure you’re going home to rest and have a life and hot on making sure people aren’t so swamped that they have to stay late..
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:03 pm My workplace has an 8 to 5 policy too, in that it becomes a ghost town by 5:00:02PM. On the same token though, if you’re not in the office by 8am (well, before the boss), the boss will notice and call you on the carpet if he thinks it is a problem.
The IT Manager* February 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm cause I forgot my laptop and had to return home to get it.. I worry about this. Not stress level worries, but just “better make sure I pack up the laptop at night and put it by the door” thoughts.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 1:56 pm There isn’t any particular pressure to stay late in my office, particularly for my team. There’s a tacit understanding that myself and one other team member are on call pretty much whenever, and because I always arrive early and am always at least semi-available on weekends and after hours, no one minds that I’m usually gone not just AT five, but BY five. I think I’m more concerned that I no longer have any interest in being there in excess of what’s expected. It used to be that the day often flew by and I didn’t even notice that it was well past five; now I often wonder if the clock is actually working because it moves so slowly!
intjCoping* February 20, 2015 at 10:09 pm Sometimes that feeling means I need a vacation or that I have stress in other parts of my life. Could that be true for you?
De Minimis* February 20, 2015 at 11:05 am I think it’s just how it is after a while, the novelty wears off. And I think a lot of people never feel a lot of passion for their work, it’s just something you do to pay the bills. I don’t feel passionate about my job, but I do feel a certain amount of satisfaction about getting things done.
Rex* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am I think that is a natural progression, both as you get older and have more obligations, and as you get more experience and learn the difference between working hard and doing good work. I would keep a sharp eye on how these organizations treat work life balance, some get it and some don’t.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:10 am I am dealing with this, too!! I used to be on fire for training employees and now. Bleh. I just want to sit at my desk and coast. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I have been in this position for 8 years. I do have flexibility on the topics I teach and that’s nice. But somehow that’s not enough right. There has been a change in leadership at the top and I really, really hate this person’s style and the effect this person has had on everyone under her (which rolls down to us low on the totem pole). Personally I’m stressed just having two small children and my life feels completely out of control there. I have wondered if my discontent at work is really discontent with the demands of my home life, but no mother in today’s society should honestly admit that. All I know is I’m a bit of a mess right now and it’s not like me to have no direction. I feel unmoored – that’s exactly the word that’s been bouncing around my head right now. Anyway, sorry didn’t mean to therapize on your post here. I just wanted to say that I’m with you and I’m hoping it’s just one of life’s ups and downs. The struggle for me is in what Anie said above: Maybe changing jobs will help and maybe it won’t. I have a basically good job and I don’t want to gamble on something that may not work! UGH.
PX* February 20, 2015 at 11:29 am Just going to pick up on your comment about mothers in today’s society not admitting they are discontent with their home life/kids – that is exactly one of the problems with society today, and I think if you need to admit that you’re not happy at home, you should be able to! The prevailing notion that everybody else is perfectly happy/satisfied with their life is incredibly destructive I think – the world would be a much better place if more people were open about their struggles. So in that vein, I would say find someone to talk to (husband/good friend/therapist) and maybe that might help in figuring out what the root cause of your discontent really is.
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am “The prevailing notion that everybody else is perfectly happy/satisfied with their life is incredibly destructive I think – the world would be a much better place if more people were open about their struggles. ” I think you hit the nail on the head. A fair amount of road rage, people yelling at store clerks, and other expressions of rage and anger in society today is largely a manifestation of misplaced and supressed frustration.
Ama* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm That and also that it’s a some kind of weird absolute situation where to be “happy” you can’t acknowledge any kind of flaws or thing you wish would be better, or if you’re “miserable” you can’t have anything you like about a situation. I love my job, pretty much for the first time in my adult life, but I wouldn’t say I’m “passionate” about it. I still prefer not being at work to being at work and there’s still days where it’s hard to get motivated. I just feel like that a smaller percentage of the time.
SevenSixOne* February 21, 2015 at 9:57 am Often, when you do admit that you’re unhappy or struggling with any aspect of your life, many people will just scoff about how you have so many good things in your life so what exactly are you complaining about because they’d just LOVE to have YOUR problems because THEIR problems are JUST SO MUCH WORSE LET ME TELL YOU ALL ABOUT IT. It sucks.
C Average* February 21, 2015 at 11:52 am Yeah, I get this, too. I just tell ’em, “yeah, I know these are first-world problems, but since that’s where I actually live, these are the kinds of problems I’m trying to solve.” We can all play the somebody’s-got-it-worse-off-than-me game. By that standard, only the saddest and most downtrodden person on earth has any business complaining and looking for ways to improve areas of unhappiness. Which seems . . . not realistic.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 5:30 pm The scoffers are the ones that can NOT help us. They are too busy scoffing to be of any real assistance.
Heather* February 20, 2015 at 11:51 am +1 million. So many of my friends who have kids have told me that they were surprised by how much harder parenting is than they thought it would be. I think that’s because it’s such a taboo to admit that it’s not all hugs and cute photos.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 12:07 pm The closest I hear a lot of people come to it is, “Yeah, it’s a lot of work.” You’re right; it’s very much a taboo to complain about it. You’re supposed to be over the moon even on days when you’d like to ACTUALLY go over the moon and not come back! It’s especially hard when you’re working full time. But we’re so focused on being positive that sometimes you have no outlet when things aren’t going so well. What bugs me most is when they act like I think it’s all hugs and roses when I say I want a family. I’ve been the de facto stepmom to a child from age three to seven. I’ve cleaned up bed puke and yes, I’m not ignorant; I know it’s not perfect.
Mallory Janis Ian* February 20, 2015 at 12:40 pm ” You’re supposed to be over the moon even on days when you’d like to ACTUALLY go over the moon and not come back! OMG, that reminds me of when my first child was a baby, and I hadn’t learned that I could control the amount of nursing to some extent, so I just felt like a milk machine. So I was sitting in an upstairs bedroom, nursing and looking out the window. I saw my car parked in the driveway below, and I had a momentary thought of, “There’s my car — I could jump out the window right now and get in it and drive away.” No thought of going down the stairs and out the front door. Nope — at that point, my immediate thought was to go straight out the window (the shortest distance between two points, you know).
Revanche* February 20, 2015 at 6:09 pm Hi new milk machine here! :) This is one of those things I keep hearing from moms, new or not, that they didn’t know this about milk production and how to manage it. And I experience that fun phenomenon of depression during my milking because of the dopamine drop and boy howdy…..
Heather* February 20, 2015 at 1:00 pm What bugs me most is when they act like I think it’s all hugs and roses when I say I want a family. It’s a lose-lose… I say I don’t want kids because I know how hard it is & I don’t want to make those sacrifices, and they tell me “Oh, but it’s diferent when they’re yours!” FFS.
Revanche* February 20, 2015 at 6:07 pm Well yes, it’s different when they’re your own. YOU’RE STUCK WITH THEM, when they’re your own. This is why I loved babysitting, I could go home to peace and quiet after. I say this while I lovingly shade my infant captor sitting in the car seat glaring at me when sun gets in hir eyes. Yes darling, I live to serve. Seriously love them as much as you might, that doesn’t change the fact you’re at their beck and call until they can survive without you!
Vanelope Von Schweetz* February 22, 2015 at 12:43 am Yes, this + 1 billion! Society has the perception that women still should be mothers and ENJOY every single minute. And if you don’t, oh dear, you’re terrible. If you want to work, you’re a bad mom, if you want to stay home, you’re a bad woman. And if you complain about either choice, oh the world will fall apart! Sometimes people just want an ear, and we, as people, don’t want the person with their opinion to fix it! Sorry, I got up on my little soapbox there. It’s something I am actually struggling with right now as I want to go back to work (it’s been 4 years and I am so ready) after being a SAHM and I am getting tons of flack for it. Everyone makes decisions that work best for their families. We, as people, as parents, need to stop minimizing our feelings and discounting them because others don’t want to hear them. Parenthood, in any shape or form, is hard! I would honestly say SAHM parenting is harder than my actual job was. I can only imagine what it’s going to be like when I actually get to go back to work and juggle the two.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:30 pm Through my wellness plan through my employer we get to have a few free counseling sessions a year with a local therapist. I have seriously considered doing that. I also agree about how our society reinforces that. I LOVE Pinterest, but I blame Pinterest, too. Lucky for me, I’ve never been the type of person that tries to be perfect. Good lord, I celebrate my messiness and post if on FB for others to enjoy! haha. Truly, on the day to day stuff I don’t have a problem showing up with my kids’ hair uncombed, me smeared in toothpaste and us out of breath. That’s who we are. But surprisingly, when it gets down to those really hard moments when you’re like EFF THIS. I haven’t had a full-night’s sleep in 5 years. I’m tired of having to think for everyone in my house and be at the demands on a toddler terrorist….those are the hard things to admit you hate (oddly. I’m weird. And tired. This might be causing most of this. Thanks for your comments, PX :) )
Anna* February 20, 2015 at 7:28 pm What they say about terrorists is true: there is no negotiating with them. :)
PX* February 21, 2015 at 8:45 am Your welcome! (And again, things in your post which jump out at me – ‘thinking for everyone in the house’? Unless you’re a single parent, there should be someone else who can do the thinking, and someone else who can ensure you get a fully nights sleep…so my last comment would be to think about how household tasks are distributed [see statistics about how women are still expected to do more around the house/with kids even when they have full time jobs while men get to do….not much] and perhaps see about getting a fairer balance in who does the thinking! And actually, even if you are a single parent, taking time off to decompress and work on yourself is never a bad thing if you can!)
Vanelope Von Schweetz* February 22, 2015 at 12:47 am Toddlers are LITERALLY the worst kind of terrorists. For real. And if you get free counselling, take it. Think of it as a mini-vacation, 1 hour per week for a few weeks. I did it and it has made a huge difference in my mental stability.
JB* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am I don’t have any advice or words of wisdom, but I wanted to send words of encouragement your way. If you could find a way to make your home life less stressful and more contented, then you could see whether that has an effect on your work life, but obviously if that were easy you’d have done it already. And the only thing I can tell you to cheer you up is something you already know–that in a few years your kids will be older, so that part will be less stressful? So hey, in a few years, maybe everything will be better! :/ Yeah, I got nothing, but I hope you can get through this.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:34 pm Thank you, JB. :) Knowing that others feel exactly the same way or have been in that spot before helps tremendously. I do know that when my girls are older, the things I hate about right now will get better. I just have a few more years until the little one is doing what the older one is able to do and that will make the things that are personally hard for me to deal with, better. I used to exercise regularly and haven’t for years. I know that’s contributing to a huge part of it. I used to scoff at women’s magazines when they talked about forcing yourself to carve out time for yourself. I so arrogantly (this was before kids, obviously) used to think how much of a cop-out that was to take care of yourself. Um, no. It’s real. From the moment I wake up to the moment I fall asleep I’m taking care of someone else. But this isn’t new to humankind. Thanks for your kind words though :)
Future Analyst* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am I think it’s completely understandable to be put off from doing your job how you would have otherwise b/c leadership has changed– regardless of your position, leadership can really make or break your experience, and I think we’ve all been in situations in which we love what we do until something (or someone) changes the “feel.” Additionally, don’t discount the major energy suck that comes along with being a parent. I have a 16 month old and am pregnant with no. 2, and some days I just don’t have the energy to care about things I used to think are really important. This is both normal, and will pass, I promise! Pick one thing to address, and work on that. Don’t try to address discontent at home AND discontent at work at the same time. Address individual situations, and pay close attention to what makes a difference. It could very well be that you love hanging out with your kids, but hate the laundry that they bring about (or the extra cleaning/grocery shopping, etc.) ID anything that someone else might be able to take on, and delegate, delegate, delegate. OR, if you want to start at work, tell yourself that you want to roll out a great new training for ____ by x date. Sometimes, having no set deadlines is the biggest source of our malaise at work, since there’s no urgency to accomplishing something new. Sorry for the novel! TL;DR: this is all normal, focus on changing concrete, small things.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:37 pm Thanks!! You’re SO RIGHT about the “feel” of the workplace changing. I guess we enjoyed a lot of the same until this new person came along and I have to say I hate it. And yes- kids = time suck. The lovable, little zombie makers they are. Mine are 5 and 20 mos. And I LOVE your reminder to just focus on one area at a time (either work or home). I heard one time in a class that if your home life is crazy, you need your work life to be stable. And vice versa. If both of them are crazy, then you are in trouble. So I guess my work life is pretty stable, which is probably all part of the larger plan for me to just get through these challenging little kid years. Work sort of is my haven during the day. Unless I’m teaching a class I really don’t have to talk to anyone :)
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 11:48 am You have expressed a lit of things I’m currently feeling right now, hildi. It’s a tough place to be but I wanted you to know that you’re not the only one. I think it’s normal to get unjazzed about your work. Sometimes the novelty wears off, sometimes personal circumstances get in the way. For me, it’s that a lot of my current job is wearing me down, and I tend to get mired in it and then can’t feel the passion that I used to. However, I have found that if I can take a step back from that part of my position, and work for a while on an exciting project, or attend a conference or seminar, those passionate feelings come back. So, for me right now, I would say that I have a passion for my industry but not necessarily passion for my current position.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:39 pm “So, for me right now, I would say that I have a passion for my industry but not necessarily passion for my current position” THIS. So true. I have thought about job searching and when I think about what I want to do, I still want to teach adults in some capacity (which some days I don’t even know why. Adults can be terribly unforgiving. But still, somehow that’s what I feel called to do). You’re right – this particular position isn’t really doing it for me anymore, but I still do have passion for teaching others. Thanks for that perspective :)
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am I’ve seen as obligations have increased outside of work, especially when they end up interfering with getting adequate sleep, that work suffers. I know that I need 8.5+ hours of sleep, but often that just doesn’t happen. That is a slow wearing that dulls everything for me, but it’s so slow that it’s often not recognized as the problem.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:42 pm Yes!! Before kids I was an absolute expert sleeper. Brushing my teeth often, drinking tons of water, and getting loads of sleep were my healthy claims to fame (watching what I eat = not a strength). So it has been really hard for me to adjust to having my sleep interrupted often throughout the night. And you’re right, it’s been such a gradual progression that I didn’t even realize how foggy thinking I am, how often I type the wrong thing or say the wrong thing. It’s spooky. I am holding out for my little one to turn 3 because that’s when her sister started reliably sleeping through the night. I can white knuckle it for another year. And then if not, we’re going nuclear option because momma needs to sleep again.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 2:02 pm Thank you for therapizing on my post! You’re always such an upbeat and positive person that in a way it’s consoling to know that you, too, experience these moments of less-than-optimal enthusiasm toward your job. I do think home life is a huge part of it for me, too, and for a lot of people in general. And maybe by “people,” I do mean parents or parental figures. I’ve found that beyond the specific responsibilities of kid-raising (which can be intense), there’s the less easy to define challenge of being at the mercy of other people’s moods and emotions at every waking moment, and having to calibrate yourself to their needs. At work you have to be “on” from a professional perspective, always taking colleagues’ feelings and preferences into account and tempering your personality to fit into that group dynamic. And then at home you have to do the same thing for your family. It can be a bit emotionally exhausting. I love my family, but I recall with fondness the days when I could give 100% for 12 hours at work, come home, and know that I didn’t have to give anyone else anything else for the rest of the day.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:44 pm C Average – you and I could be good friends. Your comments about having to be at the whims others’ emotions – YES. OMG, YES. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you’re right – that’s SO tiring. I’ve often found for myself if I can articulate the problem then I have a better time dealing with it. It’s when I can’t analyze what’s going on and why it’s happening that I have trouble coping. Your thoughts on this have helped me name a big part of the stress, so thank you :)
Nerd Girl* February 20, 2015 at 4:22 pm I’m responding to this post and the one you wrote below. Why can’t we mothers honestly admit that we might not be happy with things going on at home? It makes me sad that we feel like we can’t be honest about the thing that is keeping us from being content right now. I say that we spurn the Judgy McJudgerstons and start saying the thing that people don’t like hearing: sometimes having kids kind of sucks. My apartment never stays clean. It’s harder to save money. Something is always sticky. I miss having a purse that didn’t have at least three toys in it at any given time. Nobody ever seems to listen to me, but I’m the one who actually knows what’s going on. Spontaneity is a thing of the past. I’d love to stay late at work but I need to pick up the kids from the sitter. I feel guilty about everything. Of course, saying this doesn’t mean I’d change a second of the past 10 years. It’s just sometimes I’d like to not have to pretend that I’m happy with motherhood all the time. If I can complain about my day at work and what a crap boss I have or wonder what a new job would be like – I should be able to do the same with that other huge part of my life. Additionally…Pinterest is evil. It incites serious anxiety in me. I never before felt truly unsatisfied with my decorating, cooking, crafting, clothing, etc. All that changed when a friend turned me on to Pinterest. Not only does it steal my time but I come away feeling like I’m some kind of slacker as a mom, woman, and human being in general. It causes a noticeable shift in my personality. Suddenly I’m not satisfied with anything around me: my living room is not pretty enough, my clothes are hideous, I need to work out more, I need to be more creative, I can’t believe my office isn’t organized with a color coded, cross referenced system from the container store. The list is endless. Do yourself a favor and ditch Pinterest. :)
Revanche* February 20, 2015 at 6:03 pm I am right there with you on hating the societal demand that mothers pretend there is no higher calling than having kids and every day is rainbows and kittens. It doesn’t negate the experience or the meaning of what you do, it’s just reality that it’s hard work and there are good and bad days just like in anything else.
C Average* February 21, 2015 at 12:00 pm This makes me so, so glad I don’t “get” Pinterest and have never really bothered to try. I spent this past weekend with a dear old friend I’ve known since fourth grade. We used to play at one another’s houses often as kids. My mother, who freelanced from home, kept a beautiful house, served healthy meals, and pretty much ran the household like a boss–I’m seriously in awe when I look back. My friend’s mom, by contrast, ran their household by the seat of her pants, and I always LOVED going there. We could set up a project on the kitchen table and have it ongoing for a week, and she didn’t care; they’d eat dinner on the couch for a few days. We could move all the furniture to the side so we could breakdance on the hardwoods, and she thought it was great and often joined us. Sometimes dinner was a polyglot assortment of leftovers eaten on the back patio well after dark, and she’d leave the dishes until the next day–something my mom NEVER would have done. I think of her often and remind myself that the common denominator between those houses was that people had fun and were well-loved. It helps on the days when, realistically, the counter isn’t going to get de-cluttered.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 4:58 pm I listen to music most of the time in the car, so I only get bits of songs. Maybe someone will know what I am saying here. There is a song “No one told me it was this hard.” The singer is talking about work/family/home stuff. I heard that line and said Amen. I call it the hamster wheel. Go to work, go home, go to work, go home. It almost gets robotic. But you can’t get off the hamster wheel. Or so it seems. It seems like an endurance contest- mentally/physically/financially/emotionally- on all levels. The only thing I know to do is change one thing that you are doing. Make it easier, get rid of it, mix it up, whatever applies to Thing. This got me to thinking about how things around me change often, it’s not a change I created and these changes usually cause ME extra work. But how passive have I been? I can’t tell you, because I don’t know for sure. Let’s assume that means I was pretty passive at that point. I decided to simplify as much as possible. And that worked into a life-long commitment because there are always more ways a person can simplify things. I did start feeling better. And the other thing that came out is I must invest in me. Don’t allow yourself to be drained and drained and drained. Call a time out and do something to put stuff back into you. It doesn’t matter what “it” is. It’s critical to do it, though. Maybe the best you can do is set aside a time out once a month for 2 hours. Get there, do that. Do something to build yourself up. Looking back on it, I realize that I might be stronger than I thought. I would go for years without investing anything in me but putting everything into other people. That is when I learned something that blew me away. It’s unethical not to put something into yourself. Why. Because you should not allow yourself to be come so broken down that others have to take care of you. Yes, there are a lot of folks that have problems that could not be prevented. But self-neglect CAN be prevented. And this does not necessarily mean go to the doctor, eat right, and all that stuff. People can do all that and still be pretty neglectful. Us humans have many, many ways of neglecting ourselves. Human beings need a sense of belonging in reciprocal relationships (not one-way relationships); an outlet to create something and human beings need to feel that they are making a contribution. These three areas are good baseline check points to see how things are going in your life. I have had many relationships with people, but some how it felt like some of them needed me way more than I needed them. I have created some things and didn’t get much satisfaction from what I made. And I have worked like a dog and felt I never made a contribution. Take a hard look at what you are doing and how you really feel about it. In a harsh twist, I think that every decade or so our answer to these needs change. What met my needs in my 30s would never work now. My needs shifted. It took me a while to realize that is okay. We are supposed to shift. It’s okay.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 5:09 pm This friend speaks my mind. But I have to go a step further here: don’t let your self-care consist of mindless dissociation. I realized a few months back that I’d reached a state of personal and professional burnout that left me just wanting to mindlessly experience and consume in my off-hours. I walked to and from work listening to podcasts. I listened to audiobooks while cleaning the house. I turned on dumb TV when I was doing busywork. I took long showers and drank too much wine and got my nails done. I read books that didn’t challenge me. I didn’t want to think or feel. It was the emotional equivalent of the BRAT diet. Lately I’ve been making an effort to engage more, to go places I want to see and spend time with people whose company I enjoy and read books that make me think and learn to do things that sound interesting to me. It requires more get-up-and-go, but it’s a hell of a lot more rewarding than what was passing for self-care in my world.
Mallory Janis Ian* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 pm This is where I am right now. My work was stressful, so I gave myself a break at home by coasting and mindlessly experiencing/consuming (same as you, right down to the “too much wine” part). It felt good to catch the break, but now I feel stressed at work, but empty and adrift at home. Some of the things I put on hiatus at home were habits that seemed like too much work at the time, but would have formed a net of comfort and self-care for me if I’d kept up at them. Now it seems like I haven’t done them in so long, it is like having to start a brand-new habit, and I stumble from comparing my current weakness with my former successes.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 9:45 am More Amens. It is scary to me but all the little choices we make along the way add up, with consequences we never dreamed of. I don’t know how many people I have seen that spend all Sunday morning reading the paper. Is it coincidence that these people get so up-in-arms about current issues? Is it a coincidence that they are very nervous about their current setting or their future? Why do they see a plot behind everything that happens? (Yes, I know, not all people and not all the time. Typically, these things are much more subtle than the examples here. People get nervous about their jobs or their homes when there really is no need to be nervous- it’s more of a subtle erosion.) Ugh. It’s a learn as we go thing. We do something for a while and then realize, “hey this is not working out so well.” I try not to think about how much time I have wasted in the past. I try to focus on making today better. Some days are easier than others.
The Other Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 11:10 am I struggle with this now. I love the company I work for and I enjoy my job. What I don’t enjoy is having to get out of bed in the morning at a certain time, get ready for work, drive there, and be there. I thought that getting this new job and loving my company would make that go away, but it didn’t. Then I started to think that maybe I picked the wrong job again (!!). I’ve come to the realization that I just hate having to be somewhere at a certain time for a defined period of time. But the reality of my work is that I have to be here during certain hours, no matter what company I work for, and that’s the way it is. The only way to escape that is to change careers, which I’m not really interested in doing.
Heather* February 20, 2015 at 1:07 pm When I feel like this, I try to remind myself that there’s literally no job that doesn’t require you to be working sometimes when it’s the last thing you want to be doing. Even movie stars have to get up at the butt crack of dawn and stand around for hours. It doesn’t always improve my mood, but at least it makes me feel grateful that I don’t have to get up at the butt crack of dawn ;)
brightstar* February 20, 2015 at 4:02 pm I love my job but often feel this way. But being unemployed a few years ago showed me that, if you’re always home, you can’t really enjoy being home. So I try to think about that when I’m tired of waking up at 5:30 a.m. to get to work on time. I get to enjoy my time at home more.
HeyNonnyNonny* February 20, 2015 at 11:21 am I think of it like I am passionate about some parts of my work…but my job– especially all the parts about a long commute, annoying coworkers, and office politics? Well, it’s hard to keep passion up for all the everyday parts of a job.
Ali* February 20, 2015 at 11:27 am This is how I am too. I’m in a field so many people want to work in, and I admit I got caught up in the glamorous aspects of the business. It’s harder than it looks on paper to make a career of what I do, even though I was once fine with some of the less “cool” aspects of my job because I once enjoyed it. Unfortunately, with the work I do, you’re either 100% in or you’re not. It requires a lot of commitment and sacrifice and it’s hard to find an in between. I’m now miserable and trying to get out, and I ended up in therapy to boot from the burnout and depression partly caused by my job! Not saying my experience will be everybody’s because some people who do my work truly can’t see themselves doing anything else or think it’s low stress. But once I decided I didn’t want to be in anymore, I really meant it. However, my job search isn’t going overly great (had a mix of interviews and phone screens, but have yet to get an offer) so I’m mostly just trying to cope.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 12:09 pm Yes, how many times have we heard on this site that there is no such thing as a dream job! Even the best job in the world has boring stupid stuff.
Florida* February 20, 2015 at 11:29 am It is absolutely most people’s reality. Everyone at your office is motivated to show up everyday because of the paycheck. Sure, there might be other factors as well, but if passion were their primary driver, the company wouldn’t have to pay those people. I work in the nonprofit world and everyone says you have to be passionate about the mission. In reality, the bookkeeper at a foster care agency could absolutely hate children and still excel at their job. The bookkeeper needs to be excited numbers, not foster care. I’ve even raised a lot of money for organizations that I am really quite ho-hum about. My passion is about seeing other people use their money to achieve their personal missions. I don’t care if their mission is animals or homeless or education or whatever. So, I don’t need to be passionate about the organization. I need to be passionate about donors achieving their goals. By the way, even if you work for a religious organization or a nonprofit organization, there is nothing wrong with going to work because you want paycheck. People in certain industries will proudly profess that they want to be rich, but people in nonprofit and religious organizations (I don’t know if this is you) sometimes tend to feel shameful if they go to work to get money. This is crazy talk. If you are as passionate about your job as you are about buying milk that makes you pretty normal. Yes, there are people who jump out of bed every morning excited to go to work. There are also people who would rather each vomit than go to work everyday. The vast majority of the world falls in the middle. Work is a means to a paycheck. Sometimes it’s enjoyable , but other times, it sucks. Also, I’ve found that the times when I’ve felt that I would work for free, it’s not because of the product the company is selling. It’s because I feel camaraderie with my co-workers. It’s because I feel challenged in my job. It’s because of good management, not because of the mission of the organization.
Revanche* February 20, 2015 at 5:24 pm So true. While a certain percentage of people should probably have passion for the goal of the non profit, I always felt like a bit of a fraud because I cared more about getting the job done than being passionate about it. And I’m much more effective that way since my job isn’t advocacy. The mission may be meaningful but it’s no replacement for good management, a healthy work environment, and making a fair wage.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 11:31 am I think it’s natural to go through phases of feeling that work is just another part of you routine. And while I too roll my eyes at the “passion” stuff, I think you need to be mindful of something that WOULD make you a little more excited. A new project? A new product line? A new client? Not something that negates the daily grind, but something that adds new interest.
Malissa* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am I miss having a passion for work actually. I would love to have that excitement back. But yeah, there have been times I have been less passionate and that’s okay. Like some one else said, ebb and flow of life.
Kyrielle* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am I think honestly, it comes and goes with the rest of your life. It has to. Though I wouldn’t advertise it when they expect passion. I’ve gone through phases of being utterly passionate about what I do and phases where it was more ‘meh, but I will do what I should because they are paying me’ and rare phases where it was ‘oh no do I have to do this?’ – the last largely because of people rather than actions. Generally I would look around for other things I would want to do more. Had I found them, I’d have moved on. Since I didn’t, I stuck around – and in time it cycled back around. If you hate it, look for things to move on to. If you’re okay with it but just not desperately in love, keep an eye out for things so excellent you want to move on, but don’t jump for less than an excellent match. Otherwise, this is just life, I think.
matcha123* February 20, 2015 at 11:41 am I don’t think “passion” is necessary. Personally, I find it a bit off-putting when I see it in a job listing.
SevenSixOne* February 21, 2015 at 11:51 am Me too… especially since I’ve seen first hand that “passionate” is often code for “will work such long hours that having any kind of personal life is impossible”.
Tris Prior* February 21, 2015 at 1:28 pm +1. In my experience “passionate” is also code for “well, since you really like what you’re doing and believe in it, it’s OK for us to pay you next to nothing.”
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am It’s called burnout. I am definitely sick of my industry these days and no longer think our product is a good and wonderful thing to churn out into the world. But I can’t get any other jobs, so I have to suck it up. I think not having a passion for work is most people’s reality though. Most of us can’t get paid for what we wish we could be doing all day anyway.
Kyrielle* February 20, 2015 at 6:47 pm I would have SUCH a lovely career as a computer-games tester. :P
Perpetua* February 21, 2015 at 5:13 am As someone whose company employs game testers, I can tell you that even that loses its charm when it’s a job, when you have to keep playing even when you’re not in the mood for it, when you have to play the games you might not choose for yourself, when you have to do the same thing over and over and over again, etc. :) In other words, a job like many others. :)
Kyrielle* February 21, 2015 at 8:48 pm lol!! That makes sense, though. I’ve played some games, that the thought of continuing to play them, hunt for bugs, and thoughtfully evaluate fit *for the intended audience* (which I’m not) is kind of…ugh. So I can totally see how it would be a job and not a joy.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am I like to think that being passionate means you’re passionate about excelling in that line of work. Like a lot of people say, the novelty kind of wears off. I work in event planning and at first I was so excited. Yay so fun! But now, it’s just like ‘yup i have to do that today’. If I had a different job or position where I was learning new stuff, maybe I’d be more excited? I think it’s a reality for most people. And I think as long as you keep challenging yourself and excelling, you can live a very happy, fulfilled work life in most industries.
A Reader becoming QAT Contractor* February 20, 2015 at 12:01 pm Without going too far into the details, I used to be very passionate about my job in IT. I wanted to make every single thing I worked on the best I could because I knew other people would be using the product I was working on. At first it was all great and I made siginificant finds that improved the product for the end user. Fast forward 8 years, I’m still working in the same industry, same company, same job (more or less) and my passion has diminished. I pretty much just go to work every day, do what I need to do and move on. I do still get some of my passion back with each new client I work for, but it all ends up being the same dysfunctional issues at each one and none of them want to listen to my expertise. At the beginning of a new client, I have higher hopes, but after about 3-4 months (typically we have 6 month contracts) I feel the passion is lost. When talking about what I do and my thoughts on different processes, my passion is still as firey as ever, it’s just the implementation of it in a medium to large team where it starts to pitter out. Of course I do still love what I do, it just get’s repetative sometimes and I am able to remind myself that it’s only temporary and that maybe the next client will be better. On the notes that others have mentioned, passions change throughout a person’s life. Perhaps you were an avid reader for many years then you decided to take up painting. I know these are hobbies typically, but the same can be said for work too. What you used to enjoy doing may have changed and perhaps a career change is in order (if it’s feesable and actually something that makes sense). As for a job posting looking for “passionate people”, isn’t EVERY job looking for that? Calling it out just begs the applicant to put it on their resume. What they should really be doing is asking questions during interviews that would uncover that passion, the drive for better things, the desire to keep learning and doing.
Anon Accountant* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm It sounds like it’s just natural and happens. Not necessarily a bad sign but just something that happens.
August* February 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm I was very passionate too when I stated my career. I used to treat the company I work for as my own company. I used to get stressed, work weekends, nights if something is getting delayed as if I will experience a personal loss if I don’t get it done. Even now I am passionate, but definitely not as before. I have realized that the company I work for is just that, the company I work for and not a company that I own. The change happened when I went through an episode when my manager called and informed that he will be firing me for poor performance without any warning,without any proof and for reasons not in my hands. However, I defended myself and proved him wrong. But I know this incident has changed my perspective on work. I came to the realization that I am pretty disposable. I enjoy doing work, but I am not killing myself any more at my job
NJ Anon* February 20, 2015 at 1:38 pm I am in the same boat. Switched companies (same basic job) and thought that would help. It hasn’t. I just don’t want to do what I do anymore. Forget passion, I can barely get motivated to go in to work and I’ve only been here a couple/three months.
Mantra* February 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm I can relate to this – my passion in my last job led to it feeling personal. I shed tears over that job (sometimes at work, i’m ashamed to say). I don’t feel anywhere near as passionate in my new job, but little setbacks and disappointments roll off my back. Does make it a little harder to feel motivated though, all that passion brought a lot of energy with it.
A Reader becoming QAT Contractor* February 20, 2015 at 3:58 pm I’m not sure I agree 100% with your idea of passion. Stressing out over work, doing weekends/nights just to stay on track (at least in my field) doesn’t really say passion to me. Responsibility and/or dedication sure. But I think passion is more about loving what you do and wanting to be the best you can be at it. This could result in weekend/night work that’s nonbillable to improve skills or knowledge though. That’s just my take on passion. Your take could be just as valid, but I thought I’d put this in here.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 5:29 pm An obsolete definition of passion is “suffering”. (Merriam Webster online dictionary) This makes sense to me. If your emotions can run very high that means the potential for emotions to run very low is available. If a person can be head over heels in love with their job it could happen that the person might also fall into resentment/hatred of that same job.
August* February 20, 2015 at 7:48 pm I don’t think working weekends/nights just to stay on track is passion either. If any one is doing that, then they are at the wrong job. But that desire to do better, to accomplish more and beating the deadlines brings some amount of stress and the need to work nights and weekend. However, one jackass manager can screw you big time when you have done everything right. Oh..I didn’t believe that a manager can harm me so much without any fault of mine until I personally experienced it. I am happy my perspective has changed. Though I enjoy what I do and generally work a bit more than my colleagues (due to my inability to unplug from work easily), I have put certain boundaries around it like no working on the weekends, no meetings or working before 7:00AM and between 6:00PM to 9:00 PM, and no serious work at night . So I just answer emails, read some work related stuff or just one meeting with cross site team. I used to work from 5:00AM to 8:00AM to get some time overlap with our cross site team so that I can communicate with them real time and complete the tasks faster. Then I used to work from 9:00AM to 5:30 or 6:00PM. Now, I care more for my spouse and parents now than work. I spend time on my hobbies and social life and striving for some balance.
Sherm* February 20, 2015 at 2:07 pm I’m not worried that you would no longer work for free, but to me it’s a bit concerning that your passion is about at the cleaning the shower level. Did anything happen at work? Were you passed up for a promotion or raise? Did your boss throw you under the bus? Did your company do something that made you realize that it is not an Eternal Force For Good? I think it’s easy for people to discount their feelings, to say something like “Well, I wasn’t entitled to that promotion, and they were really nice when they told me no.” But in my opinion there is no such thing as an invalid feeling. Or maybe you just need a good long vacation. Remember when you were a kid and summer vacation was awesome at first? But then by August you were bored and actually missing school? Perhaps a 2 week (or more!) vacation is what you need to feel recharged.
Nerdling* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm You know, I’m very passionate about the overall mission of our organization. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t times when what I’m immediately passionate about is getting more sleep or paying my mortgage or whatever because the realities of work have gotten me down. That’s a completely normal thing.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 3:51 pm Well I think there’s a difference between a passion for a field/subject/etc. and a passion for work. Passion for work does follow that trajectory, but hopefully, a passion for your field will boost your energy etc. I think some people need to feel connected to their jobs in a passion-like way long-term, and changing jobs within a field (even staying in the same company) is a common way to re-energize yourself.
Artemesia* February 20, 2015 at 7:05 pm Hey the same is true in marriage and I say that after 40 years and counting of a very happy marriage. But feeling the drag is a sign you should take seriously. If you don’t enjoy work you have enjoyed for years, it is time to figure out what you can do to change up the job. I was lucky in that I had a job where I could literally reinvent myself every few years and do new things; if your job doesn’t lend itself to that, think about how you could pursue a new project, a new client, cross train, get certified to do another task your business needs, get involved in some charitable outreach your business does so you have a change of scenery — something to shake things up a bit. Works the same in marriage — when things are in a dip, it is the sign to figure out how to change the routine. If your job no longer engages you, figure out how to change the routine.
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 11:01 am Whenever I write my cover letter and even resume, I feel like it makes me seem so much more impressive than I actually am. Does anyone else have these feelings? Is it just another manifestation of imposter syndrome? Plus, I feel like I’m kind of socially awkward so if it gets to the point of interviewing, I feel like I present myself in a way that’s LESS impressive than I actually am.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 11:28 am I could have written this. I find it helpful to think about whether or not I’d hire myself. I sometimes worry that my self-assessment is way off base, but, if the position I have in mind is a good fit (not something way out of touch with my skills and experience), my answer is usually yes. It’s kind of like treat others how you want to be treated, but in hiring and you make yourself the other.
I hate interrogations... I mean interviews* February 20, 2015 at 11:36 am I think you’re suffering from the imposter syndrome, like many of us. If you’re being truthful in your resume and cover letter, then there’s no reason for you to feel like you’re not impressive. You shouldn’t feel odd about presenting the truth. The socially awkward thing is an entirely different situation. I think most people feel awkward, or weird, or scared, or stupid, or… or …or… in an interview. As someone who’s been on both side of the table, I think that interviews are hard and still feel like I’ve not mastered it even though I’ve done hundreds over the years. I interned for the city police department, and you know what they call taped interrogations? Interview… Don’t present yourself less impressive, just tell facts and events: I’ve done x, y, z and here are some results. Be clear, concise, and factual and it’ll help you feel less stressed. If they’re impressed, they’re impressed. If not, that’s their problem :p.
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm I just have a really hard time articulating my accomplishments aloud. I end up blushing or stumbling over my words. I’m able to put it in writing, but ugh. Talking about it to someone who is evaluating me is just hard for me.
CheeryO* February 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm I have a hard time talking about myself in general, and interviews are extra hard. It’s almost impossible for me to say something positive about myself without qualifying/reducing it in the next breath. What has helped me in the past was to write my accomplishments down on paper and then imagine them belonging to one of my super-confident peers. I’d really try to visualize her sitting down in my interview and speaking confidently about my projects. Actually channeling that energy in an interview is trickier, but it got easier as I got more and more practice.
Trixie* February 20, 2015 at 9:55 pm Adding to CheeerrO’s practice of writing it down, this is where lots of interview practice really hits home. The more we practice actually answering the questions out loud, the more confident we’ll feel and sound. having a friend stage practice interviews, rotating questions, is a good opportunity to get some feedback as well as look at answers that need to be more succinct. (That last point really hits home for me because I can go when the point has been made.) So practice, practice, practice out loud with someone else.
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 11:38 am To me, that really sounds like imposter syndrome, maybe disguised with a new hat so you don’t always recognize it.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am Hah, oh yeah, it’s totally bullshitting. Though sometimes I will start thinking that I’m hot shit reading it. Too bad nobody else agrees!
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:58 am Probably imposter syndrome. I’d bet that all the people you’re impressed by feel the same way.
JMegan* February 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm I don’t think it’s necessarily impostor syndrome. Chances are, it’s more a function of seeing it through fresh eyes. All the day-to-day stuff you do tends to get lost in the day-to-day, you know what I mean? So you forget, because you’re so immersed in it all the time, and because it’s mixed in with things like changing the toner in the printer, fighting traffic, and making sure your kids brush their teeth at night. Then you narrow your focus so you’re only looking at your career, and then narrow it even further to the highlights of your career, and you have a whole new perspective. So it’s not that you’re seeming more impressive than you actually are, it’s just that you’re only looking at the parts that actually are impressive. In which case, it’s totally okay to say “Hey, maybe I *am* that great at my job!”
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 12:42 pm Hm, that’s an interesting perspective. Thanks for pointing that out. If I’m only REALLY impressive 25% of the time but only presenting that 25%, it does make it seem skewed (to me). But of course it wouldn’t make sense to just talk about the times I’ve done my job well, I suppose.
Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 12:17 pm Hoo boy I am with you on this one! So much of what I did at my last job seemed like just routine, run of the mill type stuff but in actuality was really in-depth and impressive on a professional level. I think that for most people it’s impossible to self-evaluate the true impact of their skillset and contributions to a company, because for you it was just what you did that day. For example, one of the big projects I tackled at my last job was evaluating outside contractors who were going to come in and build an integration between our Teapot Software product and a big Teapot Vendor Software product. I did everything from evaluating our needs for Teapot Vendor Software integration, looking at which Teapot Vendor Softwares to integrate with first, evaluating any and all contractors who could help with the integration, contacting the contractors that seemed a good fit, whittling down the ones I contacted into ones that I felt we could work with, then coordinating 2 hour engineering calls with four of the major Teapot Vendor Software integration contractors (following up with all parties involved, documenting next steps, documenting the calls for anyone who wasn’t there), AND THEN coordinating and leading four on-site all day meetings with the Teapot Vendor Software contractors (following up with all parties again, getting a formal written offer and statement of work from each vendor, and writing up the minutes of the meeting to send to the execs who were going to decide which contractor to go with)- all of this ultimately culminating with the company agreeing to go with one of the contracting firms that we met with. When I write it all out, it looks impressive! But truth be told I had never tackled a project of that size, scope, importance, or magnitude before and when I think about it all I can remember is how terrified I was of screwing up or saying something stupid on the phone or missing some critical detail or looking like a total noob idiot in front of these consultants from Big Important Well Known Consulting Firm. So no, I don’t think of it like a Big Important Project That I Did, I think of it as “DAMN I’m glad I got through that one without screwing up!”
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 2:13 pm Think of writing a resume and cover letter like having professional pictures taken. You’re probably wearing nicer clothes than usual, and maybe more makeup. The photographer is going to put you in an attractive setting under the best light. When you see the results, you might think, “Wow, that doesn’t look like me!” But it IS you, obviously. There’s nothing fraudulent about cleaning up nice in print.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:13 pm Me too! I don’t think you’re manifesting the impostor syndrome, but maybe you don’t feel good about tooting your own horn. So long you don’t inflate your ego out of proportion, it’s not a bad thing! One of my problems with tooting my own horn is that I set the bar high for myself, so even though I may be kicking butt and taking names on the job, in my mind, I see the gap between how I think I should perform and my actual performance. A trick for interviews: think of it as a conversation. Would you find it awkward to talk about the job with a friend? Or with a friend of a friend? I totally missed the innuendo that a first meeting with a recruiter was an interview (DOH!) and showed up in my regular Friday attire of jeans, tennis shoes and a polo shirt. Then I ordered a pastry and coffee and ate while we chatted!! I just thought we were meeting to chat about things casually and because I was relaxed, I nailed it! Now I try to recreate that mental relaxation about interviews by phrasing it “conversation” in my head, without the casual dress and food.
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:02 am Ugh, that one co-worker of mine…. This is just a rant. No point in trying to change his behavior anymore, I think. We’ve always had “things.” A few weeks ago he started calling me a b****. Like, openly. In front of co-workers. This week he’s begun threatening to hit me. As in shaking a fist in my face and saying he’ll punch me. Of course, he does so “jokingly.” Sometimes. I’ve brought these things up to others and to him to show how inappropriate and mean these things are and he always insists that no one ever hears all the awful things I say to him. Of course, I shut that down with “Like what?” Obviously he has no examples, because I don’t talk that way with co-workers. Now he’s begun throwing things like paperclips at me when he walks by. Even when I confront him, he denies doing it. I’ve watched him do it and immediately called him out on doing it, and he just plays innocent. I’ll admit, I finally started throwing them back out of frustration. Good god, not only am I at his level, I’m also acting like a child.
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 11:05 am You say you’ve brought these things up to others, but have you brought them up to management? Because if you’ve tried talking to him unsuccessfully, I think it’s time to get management involved. It’s not appropriate to call you a b**** at work or throw things at you or threaten to hit you, joking or not.
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am My boss knows. Doesn’t seem to bother her. He’s pretty high up, so I’d have to say something to the COO if I wanted it to stop. And I feel like that would have a huge impact on our small office. As awful as he is, I’m not sure the down-pouring of drama would be worth it.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:10 am I would go to the boss again and be really clear – you want this behavior to stop. He’s creating a hostile work environment for you and using derogatory terms for women. Not ok.
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 11:12 am As crappy as it is, sometimes you have to directly tell your bosses that something specifically bothers you before they’ll do anything about it. It’s not a good trait, as a manager, but I’ve definitely seen it in small companies especially. Have you directly spoken with her about it or does she just know from hearing things here and there?
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:16 am He’s done this stuff while she’s standing there. But I’ve never sat down one-on-one with her to ask her to take steps. I honestly thought if she sees it happen and I tell him immediately that his behavior is not okay…shouldn’t she know?
brightstar* February 20, 2015 at 11:20 am Wait, he calls you offensive, sexist names and throws thing at you in front of your manager and she doesn’t do anything?
Seal* February 20, 2015 at 11:41 am Time to take this to your manager’s manager. If your own manager has seen this behavior and refused to step in, she’s part of the problem. Also, as others have said, make sure you start documenting every incident so they know this is a pattern.
Gladys* February 20, 2015 at 11:24 am Create a Word document, and note every interaction you’ve had where he called you a name or threatened you or hit you – make sure you note the date and time (if possible). It may not be a good idea to share this document with your manager, but writing it will give you the evidence you need to say exactly what “Katie the Fed” recommends. I’d also check your HR policies and also any laws in your state against workplace harrassment, so that if your boss does not take you seriously as you speak to her, you casually say “I notice this goes against our policy on “XYZ” “
Lizabeth* February 20, 2015 at 1:36 pm And the people who witnessed it, don’t forget to list them as well….
Observer* February 20, 2015 at 2:45 pm And keep this document on YOUR computer that YOU OWN that is NOT IN THE OFFICE.
Dynamic Beige* February 20, 2015 at 7:18 pm Or, if your workplace allows you to have access to Gmail, get/use a Gmail account. You can compose an e-mail and just keep it in your drafts, update and save it for each event. Not on your computer, no one will be able to find it. I do this when I have an idea or want to leave myself a note. I have one e-mail in my Drafts box that I just open, type what I want to remember for later, close and close the browser window.
JustanObserver* February 20, 2015 at 11:36 am Just because she’s seen it doesn’t mean she’d automatically say something. Co-workers have all different types of boundaries and comfort levels with one another, so she probably wouldn’t want to run the risk of stepping in when it’s unwanted.
Laurel Gray* February 20, 2015 at 12:18 pm While this is true, there should never be a comfortable boundary in a professional workplace where coworkers can openly refer to one another as the b-word in front of other colleagues or management.
catsAreCool* February 20, 2015 at 10:15 pm “there should never be a comfortable boundary in a professional workplace where coworkers can openly refer to one another as the b-word in front of other colleagues or management.” This!
Clever Name* February 20, 2015 at 2:26 pm This is a good point. I have a coworker who calls me “smelly” and I call him “ho” (not when we have visitors, of course), so we definitely have a bit of a different dynamic going on– I’m sure it looks awful, but we do it because it makes us laugh. Anyhow, I think you need to sit your boss down and say you would like the behavior to stop and you’ve talked to the guy and he doesn’t stop, and you’d like your boss’ help. Then if she blows you off, talk to upper management with the ammunition of trying to deal with it yourself, going to your boss, and oh by the way you have this document of each time he’s been inappropriate.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 12:39 pm I would sit down with her. Your boss may not think it bothers you. I’m not meaning for this to come off as your boss is a jerk(because she doesn’t seem like one) but a lot of times people are busy and aren’t going to start a fire for no reason. There are some people, believe it or not, who would think this stuff is funny or would enjoy bantering back(which might be coworkers intention). Your boss may be thinking ‘well if this is a big deal, she’ll talk to me’.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm It’s absolutely worth it. This is getting worse, not better, so what you’re doing is ineffective. You are being physically threatened now. It’s way past time to escalate to management. Stop throwing paperclips back and start documenting, if you haven’t already. If he starts up with you, walk away. If he lays a finger on you, immediately go to your boss and tell him/her. This is not okay and talking to him won’t fix it. I agree with Seal below–if your lame-ass boss won’t do anything, go over her head.
Observer* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm Are you kidding me?! YOU are worried about “creating drama” when someone else is acting this way? NO. Just, NO. Please go to the COO immediately Calling you names is wildly inappropriate, and things should have been stopped cold at that point. But threats and threatening gestures (even “joking” ones), and THROWING THINGS (even small things) at you are just over the top crazy. The fact that your boss knows and isn’t bothered is almost as bad. Email your boss ONCE and bcc a personal, non-work accessible email account. Remind her that you’ve already spoken to her about the issue, and it’s getting worse, not better. Be specific. Ask her what she plans to do about this? If she responds to you in email, forward the response to your personal account. If she responds verbally, recap what she tells you in an email, bcc’ed the same way. And if she doesn’t answer you within 2 days, send one follow up stating that you understand that she is not going to do anything about it. Keep bcc’ing yourself. Then kick it up the chain. Speak to your COO. Do not worry for even ONE SECOND about the “drama”. You are NOT creating any drama – your co-worker is. Make sure to document everything in email bcc’ed to yourself. This cannot go on indefinitely, and when things get to an impossible point, your employer will try to (at best) wash its hands of this, or ty to make it your fault – including trying to keep you from collecting unemployment (or worker’s comp if you wind up injured.) You are absolutely going to need to be able to document what was going on.
BuildMeUp* February 20, 2015 at 7:00 pm I’m so sorry this is happening to you! In regards to “drama,” a good way to try and reframe it to yourself is that, if there is drama, it is being caused by the situation, and the situation is being caused by your co-worker. If he was acting like a rational, adult human being, there would be no drama. If you need to tell the COO to get him to stop, it’s because *he’s* enough of an immature jerkwad to continue this behavior, even when you’ve called him on it. He is bringing the drama on himself. This situation exists because of him, not you.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:07 am I’m with CCL–this is something to take to management. Calling you a bitch and threatening to punch you aren’t funny once you’ve made it clear that you don’t consider them humorous. But don’t throw stuff back.
Risa* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am Stop responding in kind. Keep your moral high ground – it will be really important as you get this dealt with that he really has nothing to hold over you. Make a note to yourself when these things occur – including who was present to witness it. And take this to your manager – have you taken this to your manager yet? You should not have to deal with this on your own – his behavior is completely inappropriate. Do you both have the same manager – or does he report to someone else?
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am Wow. Would your manager (or his) do anything about this if you brought it up to them? I know it seems like it’s in jest, but I suspect if you went to someone and said “Coworker has been calling me a b**** and threatening to hit me”, that should be taken really seriously. Seriously, though, holy crap. That behavior is so far out of line it’s ridiculous.
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am What? That is SO outrageously inappropriate. Have you brought it up with your manager? Please do so and don’t downplay it when you do!! No “I know he’s joking, but…” – nope, this is so far beyond. A coworker is calling you a bitch, threatening to punch you, and throwing things at you then lying about it.
Regina Phalange* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am Anastasia, I love your name! But to address Anie – do you have HR or anything? This is so beyond inappropriate, I don’t even know where to start. Especially that he is saying that in front of your manager and she isn’t handling it. That is a hostile work environment and grounds for a lawsuit if they don’t take it seriously. Granted, I’m not a lawyer, but if I were in your position and I’d taken repeated steps to try to stop this behavior and no one did anything, I would certainly talk to a lawyer. And for what it’s worth, I dealt with a very hostile coworker at my last job. He didn’t call me names in front of others or threaten to hit me, but the way he treated me in general made me not want to come to work every day. And my manager also didn’t care. When I lost that job, it was the best thing that EVER happened to me. Not sure if looking for a new job is feasible for you or not, but regardless, I wish you the best and hope this gets resolved.
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 12:12 pm Ha! He IS HR. Thank you for your story. Something to think about.
Heather* February 20, 2015 at 1:10 pm This is your HR person doing this?!?!?!!?! My head just exploded.
Anon for this one* February 20, 2015 at 10:41 pm Don’t think about what his position is and don’t assume nothing will be done about it. I was in a similar situation earlier this year with a boss who was acting this way and he was extremely high up- like one of the top three. He had been doing this to people for years. I finally couldn’t take any more and complained, positive that I would end up being the one who was fired. I turned in all of my documentation (and I documented everything, not just stuff he did to me personally and not just the illegal stuff- EVERYTHING that showed he was a bully and showed what his character was made of. If they want to help you, give them the ammunition). They investigated and interviewed other people and at least one person must have confirmed what I said because he is gone. The bottom line is, either you work for a place that tolerates this stuff or you don’t. You won’t find out until you do something about it.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am Take this to management. I’d shut that down in a hot second. Also, as much as managers want people to take care of things themselves, this is the kind of thing we need to know about. Sometimes we know more about the history of someone’s behavior and issues and they’re one strike away from getting canned. So we need to know these things.
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 11:56 am Yeah, absolutely. This is completely unacceptable and should be addressed immediately by a manager.
NacSacJack* February 20, 2015 at 11:18 am Deck him for calling you a nasty name. Slap him across the face. If mgmt doesnt mind you getting called it, they also wont mind the face slap. Alternatively, taunt him, tell him you dare him to hit you. Then let him hit you. Then sue the bejeezus out of him.
Gladys* February 20, 2015 at 11:26 am Not a good idea. You will be viewed as the aggressor if you escalate things.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 11:20 am Threats and unwanted contact? That’s assault and battery in just about every jursidiction! You could probably get a temporary restraining order, but I’ll bet if you mention unwanted physical contact (thrown objects count), fearing for your safety, and that you’re considering a restraining order, your management will suddenly start taking this much more seriously. Maybe ask them if there’s anything more they can do before you start taking legal action, that should set a fire under them!
TeapotCounsel* February 20, 2015 at 11:28 am In a past life I was a plaintiff’s employment lawyer. Step one: Go to current boss and say, “co-worker’s behavior is unacceptable. It is unacceptable for someone to call me a ‘bitch’ and threaten me with violence. Will you put a stop to it, and if not, do you mind if I go to senior management or the EEOC?” Surely that will make it stop. But if it doesn’t then: Step Two: Go to senior management and say the same thing. If Step Two doesn’t work, file a complaint at the EEOC. You’re facing a hostile work environment based on gender (as shown by the ‘bitch’ comment). Successful claims require a showing that you take some measures to try to stop/report prior to filing. And, truth be told, you don’t want to file except as a last resort.
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:46 am Thank you for your input! You’ve got a very interesting background. It would take a lot for me to get to the EEOC step. My last boss used to throw things and call me the C*** word. Heck, he also once told me to kill myself. This was a week after my mother attempted to do so. I’d only told him I had a personal family issue–it was a co-worker I’d confided in who reveled to him the details of my days off. I think, at this point, anything to a lesser degree looks better.
AnonAcademic* February 20, 2015 at 11:52 am “anything to a lesser degree looks better” I’m very sorry that you have had such bad experiences that you feel this way. But the way you’re being treated is unconscionable. Would you ever want someone else in your job to be treated this way? How about an employee fresh out of college and new to the workplace? Just because you can grin and bear it doesn’t mean you should have to.
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm Those are really good things to think about. Honestly, I always try to be very friendly and complimentary at work, from “thanks for getting me that thing so quickly” to “what a gorgeous new dress!” I don’t know why I keep ending up with co-workers who seem to hate me on such a high level.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 5:44 pm I had a similar problem. Someone pointed out to me that I let too much go by me unchecked. Before this guy got to where he is now, he sent out little tests to see if he could get away with it. Something happened that told him green light – GO. It’s too late for this guy, but going forward if you see an undesirable behavior toward you three times, you must say something. Even if you just say “stop it”. For this guy, follow this advice here. And be sure to document what is going on. Keep the documentation at home or at least a second copy of it. Please know that his behavior is totally unacceptable. (I’m not using the language I really want to use. I think Elizabeth West, here, will send a virtual kick in the back of the pants to him though.She’s good at this.) You will also need to have a candid conversation with your boss. Because for whatever reason she is not understanding the extent of the problem.
ali* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am That is horrible. What an awful person your last boss was. However, as you seem to have realized, that doesn’t make the current situation okay. It may be better than the past for you, but it absolutely is not okay behavior from this person.
Heather* February 20, 2015 at 12:01 pm Holy shit. Since you didn’t want advice, I’ll just say: you deserve much, much better than either that boss or your current coworker. Their behavior isn’t even in the same galaxy as what’s considered acceptable behavior at work (or anywhere!)
Laurel Gray* February 20, 2015 at 12:22 pm “it would take a lot for me to get to the EEOC step” Is it possible that these workplace a**holes get the sense of your grin and bear it attitude about their abuse toward you and why they haven’t stopped? I know the word “snitch” has come up quite a bit lately in regards to the office place and I really hope you aren’t allowing this foolishness to go on for the sake of not making waves. The EEOC exists for a reason. Good luck Anie!
Observer* February 20, 2015 at 2:52 pm Well, at the rate things are going, you are going to wind up with just as bad or worse. Besides all the work advice, I would seriously suggest you get into therapy. NO ONE should ever see this kind of treatment as even somewhat acceptable – not to themselves, and not to others. You can’t help it that your employer employes total jerks. But you CAN help your own attitude, and you CAN start taking steps to change your situation. That includes therapy, I would think, and looking SERIOUSLY for a new job.
Zillah* February 21, 2015 at 5:23 am For me, what’s often helpful is thinking about what I would do if it was a loved one rather than myself being treated in a certain way. It clears waters that sometimes my own poor self esteem likes to muddy.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 12:29 pm TeapotCounsel, thanks for weighing in. I know you said that you were an employment, not criminal, lawyer, but what’s your take on this being assault and battery, what with the history of physical threats and the throwing objects? Any reason you didn’t mention going to the police as a step? I thought a police complaint might help with Step one or Step two, but I’d really like your thoughts on that.
TeapotCounsel* February 20, 2015 at 1:58 pm Hi, Cosmic. I agree with you that there are, technically, crimes being committed. My concern about a police complaint is that in the early stages it wouldn’t help and would likely hurt. If Anie files a police report prior to trying to resolve the problem with management, it will make management angry and feel blindsided. Further, the police aren’t really going to do anything except write a report (which has no value in any legal proceeding, because only convictions do) and tell Anie that she can file for a civil restraining order. My sense of the matter is that filing a police report would REALLY escalate the ill-feelings involved without getting an appropriate resolution. Also, rightly or wrongly, calling the police at this point would make Anie look like she’s overreacting. In my opinion, calling the police is a Step Three and beyond option.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 2:07 pm Great to know, thanks TeapotCounsel! I know it’s usually better to start small and escalate, but something about bullying and assault in particular make me want to jump straight to Step 3 (or even NacSacJack’s unproductive advice)! It’s very helpful to know that it could be unproductive to let my indignation get the best of me like that.
TeapotCounsel* February 21, 2015 at 12:44 pm We have arrived at the same conclusion. I have learned, the very hard way and over several decades, that when I react in anger/indignation, bad things are usually the result.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:26 pm When I worked at a Fortune 500 company, a cranky guy got into a heated fight with a coworker, pulled his fist back and threatened to punch him. A third coworker had the sense to call security and the cranky guy was terminated immediately (two witnesses I guess were enough to bypass a thorough investigation). No physical contact was made. He was escorted by HR and security to collect his personal items from his desk and then to the parking garage. Anie, you don’t have to tolerate his behavior. Either go to the EEOC or get yourself an attorney. Good luck.
LizNYC* February 20, 2015 at 12:04 pm Step 1) Go back to your boss and say it is unacceptable for you to be treated this way and even though you’ve asked him to stop numerous times, he persists. Step 2) If your manager refuses, hedges, or doesn’t do anything immediate (like that day or the next), then talk to the COO. Schedule a meeting. Relate what you’ve said to your manager–the fact that you’ve asked him repeatedly to stop and how it has escalated. You need this to stop immediately.
Observer* February 20, 2015 at 2:44 pm Oh. Also, polish up your resume and start looking for another job.
Mr. Wilson's buddy* February 21, 2015 at 1:33 am Blood … pressure … rising … erk! Before … I die … has anyone ever … told … you … that you look like … Julianna Margulies? [Dies.] Seriously, though: I just read twice through what you wrote and – you’ll probably think I’m insane, but – in an odd way – is it possible that he’s trying to flirt with you? The first time I read your comment, his behavior sounded unbearably harsh and aggressive. The second time … I dunno, his behavior reminded me of an 8yo boy on the playground, trying (and failing) to get a girl to like him. I’m most certainly not trying to make excuses for the guy. It’s just something I noticed.
Observer* February 22, 2015 at 2:22 pm It seems to me that if this is his version of “flirting” it’s probably time to look into an order of protection. Think about it – if he really thinks that ratcheting up the intimidation factor is going to “get” the girl, I’d hate to think of where he would draw the limit, if anywhere.
beckythetechie* February 21, 2015 at 1:17 pm I agree that it’s time to escalate. While I’m not blaming you for *any* of this, I would suggest you take a minute to think about how you’ve “asked” him to stop. Selfish idiots don’t take someone saying “C’mon, stop it!” while they’re walking away with the same weight as standing up, squaring off, making direct eye contact and being blunt: “I’ve asked you stop, now I’m telling you. Leave. Me. Alone. I’ll be taking it up with (Insert Manager’s Manager’s Name) the next time you (threaten to hit me, throw things, call me a derogatory name).” And it’s clear that you’re dealing with a selfish idiot in this “HR” guy. If his response to a very clear, firm “stop” is “Don’t be such a cry baby!” off to the big boss you go, because what happens if Imogen the summer intern comes to him in a few months and says “Ferdinand put his hand on my rear end.”? “Oh don’t be such a cry baby,” leaves the company open to a HUGE legal issue. The above is how I make it clear in a social or public setting that I don’t appreciate someone’s “joking” and expect it to stop immediately. It is not “causing drama” or “rude” to escalate things that protect ourselves. In my case, if I’m startled in the wrong way, I swing, which is not a situation anyone wants. That fist in the face thing might make me throw a punch/elbow first and think later. (I’m fairly jumpy and have been hit way too much in the past.)
Aussiegirl* February 22, 2015 at 6:20 am In my country it’s called bullying & harassment. You would lose your job for being a bully. This jerk is a rude numnut. Best ignored and as suggested, document everything and be prepared to make a formal complaint. You need to see the bigger picture and honestly, my opinion, you need to respect yourself more – seems you are letting too many people walk all over you. Time to find a new job…good luck.
Snarkus Aurelius* February 20, 2015 at 11:02 am I’m currently struggling with a reference issue. I work in government, and I had a not so great boss who has a terrible memory. If you worked with her, she didn’t care for you. She’d misremember things, which meant you were taking blame for someone else’s mistakes. Don’t try to argue with her. There’s no point. When you gave your two weeks, she was your biggest fan. She’d shower you with praise and credit you with things done 20 years before you started working there. It was so weird to watch because you can’t spend years openly trashing someone then turn on a dime. I got out and am better. Unfortunately she is a big enough bureaucrat that even if I avoid putting her name down on my work history, there’s a good chance someone knows I worked for her as if the case in yesterday’s interview. She’s supposedly doesn’t give bad references, but I don’t trust her. Never did anyway. Her memory sucks when it comes to her staff and who did what. Any thoughts on how I can avoid referencing her at all? I don’t want her fingerprints anywhere near my job applications.
Snarkus Aurelius* February 20, 2015 at 11:46 am I have been. The problem is the applications want supervisors, not coworkers. Add that factor into my boss’ name and job title. That’s what happened in yesterday’s interview. At least her name is getting me interviews!
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am I may be off here, but if they know who this lady is, perhaps they know how she is with her staff and will realize that she has trouble getting along with people and has a bad memory?
AdAgencyChick* February 20, 2015 at 5:23 pm Is she the only person who ever supervised you at that job? Usually employment apps have room for only one supervisor’s name, so if there was someone else I’d list the someone else.
Anna* February 20, 2015 at 7:39 pm This. When I was job searching while employed, I didn’t want my manger to know what I was doing, but my lead knew and she was fine with acting as a reference.
Marcy* February 20, 2015 at 10:55 pm I’m in government, too, and supervisors aren’t allowed to give references where I am (even though many do anyway). I use that as an excuse to write “Human Resources” in the blank for supervisor and I provide the phone number for the person there who is the one who confirms employment. Even if the person calling asks HR for the supervisor’s name and contact information, the HR person will inform them that the supervisor can’t talk to them. I have never had a problem doing that. I also found on interviews that even when they know who my supervisor was, they also knew her reputation and would immediately say something like “Oh, you work for her. No wonder you are looking for a new job”.
Rayner* February 20, 2015 at 11:42 am Maybe try reading some of AAM’s stuff on awkward references – where she walks you through how to tell employers that despite your good work and reputation, your boss will bad mouth regardless of the work you did. And maybe offer up other references as well from other colleagues, people who oversaw your work etc.
Snarkus Aurelius* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am I vaguely recall a similar letter. Am looking in archives now.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm Can you reach out to her? Let her know you’re job searching and ask if it would be okay for someone to contact her? I think I’ve read that AAM recommends mentioning some stuff you did while you worked for her.
Anonymous for this* February 20, 2015 at 2:24 pm I have no idea if this will resonate with you, but I’ll throw it out just in case it does. I’m pursuing internal opportunities at my current company, and it’s customary to loop in one’s manager in these situations. (Ours is a culture where people change positions pretty frequently, it’s not frowned upon, and managers very rarely obstruct or interfere with efforts to find a new role. We’re lucky that way.) My manager can be somewhat erratic, and we’ve never meshed all that well, and we’ve tended to operate in separate silos. While I don’t think she’d deliberately give me a poor reference, I can totally envision her saying things she thought were helpful or accurate that actually weren’t, and I have worried a lot about prospective hiring managers talking to her. I confided my worries in a colleague from another department who knows my manager, and he laughed and said that everyone who knows her at all knows how volatile and unfiltered she is, and would take anything she says with a grain of salt. Is it at all possible that your manager’s reputation similarly precedes her?
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 5:50 pm Yeah, this is my thought, too. I have gotten a job offer or two because if I could work for Sue, then I could probably work for them and be just marvelous.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:30 pm Could you get a reference letter from her instead? Then if it’s not that good, resort to AAM’s suggestions on awkward references, but if it’s good, then you’ve got something.
Snarkus Aurelius* February 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm I tried right before I left. She said she didn’t want to write a generic recommendation letter, and that she doesn’t do it for anyone. If it were anyone else, I wouldn’t blink, but her saying that? I think something stinks.
No-Luck Dragon* February 20, 2015 at 11:02 am Little vent about job searching advice: Does anyone else get incredibly frustrated when you ask for tips on how people got to positions you see yourself in one day and all they say is that it was luck? I can’t tell you how many times people just say ‘Oh I got lucky, right time and right place sort of thing’. That is not useful to me! I can’t improve upon my luck like I can with an actual skill-set or work experience. Yet sometimes it is all people seem to say. I once went to an event my college hosted with a panel of young editors and published authors, who were there to talk about how they got their jobs and encourage us English Majors in the audience. They went down the line and all four of them attributed it to luck in some sense. I understand that luck, being in the right place at the right time, having the right connections, that kind of stuff can indeed heavily impact your career path but please think of a piece of advice that I can actually use and put into action. Unless I start carrying around rabbit feet and four-leaf clovers, I can’t increase my luck! Thank goodness for AAM and its useful advice! :D
Ali* February 20, 2015 at 11:05 am Yes! I worked with someone who got a cool job. Not necessarily saying I wanted to work at his new company or that I wanted his job. But when I asked how he got it, he said it was part networking and part because he lucked out. The same thing happened when I asked a coworker how he got his new position. He said he was lucky and it was really right place, right time. I’m happy for them, but it does nothing for me!
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:12 am Try changing your question. Instead of saying, “how did you get here?” ask about skills that are really useful to them in their job, the most impressive experience they’ve ever seen on a resume (if they are involved in hiring), best advice that they would give to anyone looking to enter the field, etc. I suspect that this is partially a modesty thing. We’re kind of trained that getting good things isn’t because of who we are and our skills, it’s always just good luck. Which is silly! But that means that asking that question isn’t going to be as useful to you as other approaches might be.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am Yeah, I get that’s frustrating. On the other hand, it’s often true, and it’s not like people can come up with a formula in a situation where a formula isn’t what got them there. I have a job that either nobody else in the country has or about 3 other people in the country have depending on how you count it; that’s not stuff you can plan for in a career trajectory. So I think the problem really isn’t with what people are saying but the fact that so often it’s true. One possibility is to change your approach by adding a followup there: “How did you prepare yourself so you could take advantage of that luck?” Because luck is often crucial, but not everybody benefits from it, and that might get you more actionable information.
Mallorie, the recruiter* February 20, 2015 at 11:44 am Agreed, my career has been part working my ass off and being amazing and part complete dumb luck. The working my ass part comes from being the kind of person people WANT to work with and the kind of person who has a good reputation. The luck part is absolutely being in the right place at the right time when it came to moving up the ladder. Example, I DIDN’T get a job in April 2012, but did get one in July 2012. The job I took in Jan 2014 would have been less an option had I gotten the first job and not the second…. like that right there is just luck my friend.
JB* February 20, 2015 at 11:45 am I totally agree. As OriginalEmma pointed out, it’s really preparedness plus opportunity. You need to be qualified for the job you want,to be putting yourself out there so that you have a large network of people who either will maybe one day have job opportunities or know of them, to be able to sell yourself in a way that makes people want to give you a shot, and you need to learn to recognize opportunities when you see them. Those last two parts are the ones that are hard for me. I have a coworker with very similar skills and qualifications to me, but if we both lost our jobs today, I’d probably be out of work for some time, but he’d probably have another job by the end of next week. He’s good at selling himself in a way that doesn’t sound like a pitch, and he’s really good at recognizing opportunities.
Anna* February 20, 2015 at 12:09 pm I disagree that it’s true. People give a lot of credit to luck where none is due. The whole “discovered working at a make-up counter and became a world-famous actress” thing is a myth. One of the responses was networking. Probably that had a lot more to do with it than luck. The only thing that makes sense to me is that what they’re attributing to luck is something they don’t actually recognize like taking advantage of an opportunity when they heard about it, or realizing it would be a good idea to attend a function and then actually attending. Malcolm Gladwell talks about how the luck myth is exactly that in one of his books. Bill Gates even says luck is mostly made up.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:20 pm Sure, that’s where the followup question matters, but it absolutely does involve luck, and it’s perfectly reasonable to point that out. I am either the only person with my job in the country or one of four or so people with it. If you ask me how to get a job like mine the only strategy I can offer you is a bloody coup. There’s no way to get this without a massive amount of luck. I can tell you how to position yourself, how to do things that are similar, etc., but I can’t tell you how to get this job. I agree that “luck” can mean a variety of things–I’m not using it to mean being beloved by the Fates or anything–but it boils down to “things out of your control.” And there’s a lot of that in careers generally. It’s still advisable to prepare the hell out of your application and interview, because you want the part you can control to be as competitive as possible, but the difference between the finalist who is hired and the finalist who isn’t is, essentially, luck–that’s why second-choice candidates tend to work out just fine as well.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:21 pm Sorry, I didn’t realize how much I was repeating myself there! Oops.
College Career Counselor* February 20, 2015 at 12:13 pm I’m a big fan of John Krumboltz’s “Planned Happenstance” theory of career exploration/development (tagline: “Luck is No Accident”). Paraphrasing significantly, you have to clarify your interests, be curious, remain open to possibilities (pivot from “I can’t because” to “How can I?”) and say “yes” to opportunities that come your way (project at work, random/chance encounters, etc.). Through these actions and attitudes, you may find that you create your own luck. TL; DR: I think that fposte is spot-on with asking a contact how did s/he prepare to take advantage.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 1:11 pm Yeah, and I find nothing more frustrating than when someone lucked into a job and then tries to make out like it was something they did and gives some misleading advice. Example: When I was an intern, a former intern came by and our boss decided to have us all meet her and give us the opportunity to hear from her experience moving from the internship to a job in the same field. I’d never met her before and I asked a few questions and just got, for lack of a better word, weird answers that got strangely hostile. It ended when I asked about finding listings and she snapped that I was short-sighted and not going to find work with my attitude. After she left one of the other interns who knew her leaned over and told me she had actually got her job through a friend who already worked there and probably got defensive because she didn’t want to admit that.
E.R* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am I hear you. I think, looking back on a career, its just that they see that moment where sweat and fate combined to finally get to the place they were always hoping for but never fully sure they would reach. It sure feels like luck. Maybe a good follow up question would be something like “what really prepared you to take advantage of that luck?”. Because a lucky break won’t do much for you if you dont have the skills to take advantage of it. Yay English majors! And good luck to you ;)
Gwen* February 20, 2015 at 11:18 am I think you can definitely put yourself in the right positions to be “lucky,” though. The right connections matter? Then really focus on making new connections. Do good work, develop diverse skills because it sure will be “lucky” when one of your connections just happens to need someone who can do XYZ, and you’re pretty much there with a bow on your head!
OriginalEmma* February 20, 2015 at 11:23 am Isn’t luck just preparedness meets opportunity? I “got lucky” with my current job….but what’s behind the scenes in repeatedly applying and being rejected for similar roles, improving my resumes and cover letters, building my professional and people-skills, and generally just moving along. I used to just say “Luck” or “They just liked me, I guess,” as an intellectually lazy way to answer the question. But if you’re seriously asking, you should challenge people on that intellectually lazy answer with more specific questions. Oh, I remember reading about writers and their success. It stated point-blank that you needed wealth, to start and for many of us, that’s just as unattainable as luck! From Salon, the article is called “The real secret to making it as a writer: Be fabulously wealthy before you even start.”
Meg Murry* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm I was coming to give the same “luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity” quote – I first heard it in Randy Pausch’s book “The Last Lecture” but I’m pretty sure its an old/famous quote. All you can do is keep preparing yourself as best you can, and putting yourself in places where you might have an opportunity. As a for instance, I am starting a job next week where someone I worked with on a random project 7-8 years ago found my two year old resume on Monster and called me up for an interview. I’d never even known his company (or one like it) existed , and I wasn’t actively looking for a new job, but its the kind of position that seems tailor made for me, my experiences and my career/life goals. So for anyone that says “networking” – yes, definitely, but understand that some networking doesn’t pay off for 5-10 years or more.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am There’s an aspect of privilege to it, definitely. You have to be in a position to be able to take a risk with a start-up that might not be around next year.
matcha123* February 20, 2015 at 11:46 am I wouldn’t feel annoyed over it because in the end, it is luck. They were in the right place at the right time and had the right person who was open to hearing what they said. I would rather hear someone tell me honestly that it was luck than listen to them give me bad advice. This is especially true of people who aren’t particularly more skilled than you are. And, with my current job, it definitely was luck that got me here.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 11:56 am Yeah, all of my jobs have essentially been “right place, right time” luck. You can’t prepare for luck, it just happens or not.
Katie* February 20, 2015 at 11:51 am It reminds me of married people who like to tell single people, “You’ll meet someone when you’re least expecting it. That’s how I met my soul mate!” Great. That helps me meet people. How about setting me up with one of your friends, or some friendly advice on what I could be doing differently socially? The rabbit’s foot & four-leaf clover thing, totally.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 11:57 am I haven’t been expecting it for over a decade now. That trick only works for some people.
PurpleMonkeyDishwasher* February 20, 2015 at 12:01 pm I hate the “you’ll find it when you least expect it” line from marrieds, especially because most of them are straight-up lying. Unless you signed up for an all-ladies boat cruise and you happened to meet and fall in love with the only male staff member on the 2500 person ship or something, you most certainly did NOT meet your husband when you “least expected” it. FWIW, I met my husband on an online dating site, and I’d highly recommend online dating. Safest way I’ve encountered to widen the pool of potential dates while simultaneously screening out potential weirdos with as little personal risk and drama as possible.
Katie* February 20, 2015 at 12:07 pm Thanks, PurpleMonkeyDishwasher. I had my first foray into online dating for a 6-month period last year. It went ok, but I wanted a break and didn’t want to pay for another block, but now I’m thinking of giving it another go. I like the cruise illustration! Hahaha
PurpleMonkeyDishwasher* February 20, 2015 at 2:15 pm Don’t be afraid of the free online dating sites! I met my H on OkCupid, another friend met her long-term girlfriend on OkCupid as well, and my 50-something mom is currently having an absurd amount of success on PlentyofFish. There’s certainly more weirdos to sift through, but there are also a lot of good people there.
Nerd Girl* February 20, 2015 at 4:49 pm I have to disagree. I think that “you’ll find it when you least expect it” line to be especially honest when it comes to relationships. My best friend met the man she was to marry when he started dating me. Another friend met her husband while on a family vacation with her parents. I met the man I married because I forgot to close my AOL chat options when I turned on my computer. (yes…this was that long ago!). None of us were looking for it and certainly none of it was expected. Frankly I think that advice is given when the person receiving the advice is reeking of desperation. I have one friend who hears it a lot but she’s also the same woman who tosses her desperation onto the dinner table with phrases like “I’m thinking of going to church so I can use some of those Christian dating sites” or “It’s really not that bad if he’s into swinging, is it? I mean, as long as *I* don’t have to join I guess I could be okay with it.”
Windchime* February 20, 2015 at 8:27 pm The only people who ever say, “You’ll meet someone when you stop trying/least expect it” are people who are happily paired up. “Not looking” doesn’t work for anything else. It doesn’t work as a job-hunting strategy; can you imagine telling someone to just stop looking and quit being desperate and a job will come along? Or house hunting. Just stop looking! Stop expecting it, and a perfect house-for-sale will drop into your lap! But somehow this advise is smugly handed out by married/attached people to us single people; after all, the reason we are all single is because we are giving off waves of desperation.
Zillah* February 21, 2015 at 5:47 am I think that this is a tough one because there’s some truth to both sides of it. Sometimes, I think you really do find fulfillment in your life when you aren’t looking for it – a hobby, friendships, romance, living arrangements, etc. I’ve experienced that for sure – I met my partner when I was in a really bad place emotionally and actively did not want the stress of a relationship to make it worse. However, there’s an element of luck in that, and you’re right that people can often veer into diminishing everyone who is actively looking, when there’s nothing wrong with that, either.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 12:24 pm Oh, God, I HATE when people say that. It’s such bullshit. With my job, I lucked out in that I found the exact right job at the exact right time (a week before my unemployment’s final tier ran out). But I made some of that luck by doing the following: –I checked back on their employment page even after interviewing for another position that I did not get. That’s when I saw the listing. If I’d just gone schlumping off in defeat, I wouldn’t have seen it. –I worked really super hard on the test materials and scored an interview. –I read AAM incessantly and thanks to all the advice here, I was extra prepared to ace both interviews. As far as the dating thing, I’m thinking it probably WILL have to be luck, because I’ve tried everything else. :P
AvonLady Barksdale* February 20, 2015 at 11:53 am I hear you, but I also think that if they’re willing, you can probe into that “luck”. Most of the time, “luck” in finding a job has to do with timing and circumstance, but it’s not impossible for you to do the same. I often tell people I got my current job because I “stumbled” on a LinkedIn posting, which I did, but that stumbling took time and required creative search terms. I did get lucky in that a job in my field happened to exist in my current city (that was pretty unusual), but I had to pursue that “luck” myself. I happened to vaguely know the CEO of this company, but more importantly, I had colleagues who definitely knew him and would vouch for me, which they did– not luck but the hard-earned establishment of a good reputation. It wasn’t lucky that I got my first interview– I was the one who sent in my resume and I had skills they needed/wanted. I don’t attribute that to luck, but to being a good candidate for this particular company. I also had to shine in my interviews, which I did thanks to research and Alison. So while there was an element of stars aligning, there was also required action on my part.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 2:25 pm I agree. I suppose I would attribute my current job to luck – I’d just been laid off from my last job when this listing went up. It was a new, understaffed company that hired me for one role and then expanded my responsibilities when I showed them that I possessed other skills. But even so, I might have left that old job for this one if I hadn’t gotten laid off. I was already checking Craigslist daily, and this job was too good to pass up (great location, an industry that I enjoy independently of working within it, much better pay, consistent hours). And yep, as far as the relationship luck goes….is it luck if you deliberate go to places where guys hang out (or women, if that’s what you’re into) and then talk to the ones that you like? Why call it LUCK just because, after all of your savvy decision-making, you happened to end up in the same room as someone else who was also making those choices? I guess it’s not so magical when you say, “I never stopped looking, but I tried to act chill about it.”
RandomName* February 20, 2015 at 11:53 am I think it’s a combination of luck and hard work. I currently make a lot more money and hold a higher position than the coworkers I started out with who were all at my same level (and some that were a level ahead of me). It was luck that when I interviewed with who is now my current boss, that it turned out he knew very well a former boss of mine that I worked with for 6 years a few years prior. It was hard work that resulted in my former boss giving my now current boss a glowing reference that I attribute to my getting the job over candidates that were much more experienced than I was.
AnonAcademic* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am You can position yourself to be prepared for luck, though :). For example, I got lucky in that I started my job search a few months earlier than normal to test the waters. A job got posted at the top university in my field. They were posting 1-2 months ahead of the normal schedule. They were looking for someone with my exact, not super common skill set. I applied, interviewed, and got offered the position. It was only the third posting I applied to. I got lucky but I was also prepared with a solid cover letter, had already asked people to act as references, etc.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm I think that’s it–you have to be prepared. If the luck comes your way and you aren’t ready for it, it might go swooshing by before you know what happened. So that resume should be in shape, you should gear yourself toward the job hunt, etc. like you did. When it comes to job searching, I don’t think you can ever start too early. Before I got laid off, I knew I wanted to leave Exjob, so I updated my resume and reopened my account with the state job center. When the layoff came, I had some of my ducks in a row at least.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 12:03 pm Enjoy this: http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-95-of-grandfathers-got-job-by-walking-right,35621/
Dan* February 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm But it *is* luck, like others have said. If you’ve got your eyes set on Company X, Company X has to have Job Y available that matches your skills at a time you’re looking. Then, you have to stand out from the crowd and somehow make it to and through an interview. My current job (which I love) called me out of the blue when I was laid off, for a position that wasn’t even posted publicly. That’s luck. Oh yeah… I had applied here twice already, never even got an interview. You can graduate in the middle of a recession and get screwed. *That* is luck. An undergraduate degree is four years long. God only knows how hot your field is going to be, and how the economy as a whole is doing four years from now. Gas prices had been high for quite some time, and all of those petroleum engineering grads were looking at some hot job. Oil prices cratered in a matter of a couple of months, and those grads just got screwed.
Glorified Plumber* February 20, 2015 at 3:04 pm Reddit had a thread of a directory at engineeringjobs.com asking petroleum engineers about their plans. http://www.reddit.com/r/oilandgasworkers/comments/2w8x6n/petroleum_engineering_undergrads_what_are_your/ Hiring down 32% nationally in ONE MONTH. A lot of folks dropping the “I’m going to grad school” line, which… I really think is a mistake. If this is a repeat of 1981-83, a lot of them will wish they had studied mechanical or chemical engineering.
Anna* February 20, 2015 at 7:48 pm So you’re saying they just divined your name out of the ether and called you? That they wouldn’t have called you if you hadn’t just been laid off?
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 9:08 am Probably not (at least on the first–headhunters call employed people all the time), but do you think he had a secret method that jobseekers have never heard of to make sure it happened? If I told people that my secret tip was to be good and enthusiastic at my entry level jobs, do you think they’d feel more informed? Sure, sometimes people get successful because they found X skill to be extremely in demand (though by the time they’re successful enough to be talking to hopefuls, probably that news has gotten out and X isn’t such a door-opener any more). But mostly it’s doing the stuff job hunters already know about; we may have been able, through diligence or natural whatever, to do those things slightly better than others, but it’s doing the basic work and application stuff well and getting lucky that gets you jobs. It’s like all those posts that want to know the secret behind what this hiring manager’s email means. The secret is there is no secret.
Dan* February 21, 2015 at 10:44 am No, HR person at Old Job used to work at New Job and still knows people there. My resume was passed around without my knowledge. I looked at new jobs postings and saw nothing I was qualified for. I call that phone call luck.
insert pun here* February 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm I couldn’t tell from your comment if you were actually interested in an editing or writing career, but: if so, here are some things you can do: 1.) if you’re still in school, work or volunteer on a student publication — editing, layout, copywriting, whatever. 2.) internships are key. Many of these will be unpaid, I am sad to say. 3.) work experience — anything relating to books or publishing looks good on your resume. Work in a bookstore, even if it’s a short stint. 4.) if you want to go into book publishing, you should be applying for every single entry level position, not just the (relatively more prestigious) editorial positions. Every. Single. One. (this is where luck comes in. This is a numbers game, pure and simple, and you have to play to win.) 5.) you can also get good experience working as an assistant or a slushpile reader at a literary agency. 6.) read everything you can get your hands on, as well as the trade publications and major book review venues (PW, Bookforum, LARB, NYRB, NYTBR, bookslut, etc) — this will give you a working vocabulary for the industry. 7.) if you want to be a writer, you should have a backup plan, because (a) it can take a long time to see the money you earn from writing and (b) for most writers, it’s not going to be a huge amount of money. It’s ok if your backup plan is “boring 9-5 office job that allows me to write in the early mornings before work.” 8.) if you can swing it financially, consider a publishing certificate (Columbia, NYU, Emerson, etc) — these are great opportunities to network. 9.) read everything, all the time.
Olive Hornby* February 20, 2015 at 1:12 pm +10000, especially w/r/t working in a bookstore, which is incredible experience, and reading everything. You would not believe the number of people I’ve interviewed for entry-level publishing positions who don’t seem to know about any books that were published within the last two years. I’d add that when you do read these books and find some that you love, try to find out who edited them, and try to get an informational interview with that person. Sincere flattery goes a very long way in the industry. I disagree a bit, though, with #4 — yes, definitely look into different departments (marketing, publicity, sub rights), but still be selective about houses. You will be much more successful working on books that you legitimately enjoy. If you love literary fiction and never read romance novels, a good interviewer will be able to tell, and if you get the romance novel job anyway, you will be miserable. Also, in writing/editing, “luck” is often shorthand for “privilege,” i.e. the privilege to spend three months working an unpaid internship in Manhattan, or to pay for the Columbia Publishing Course, or to know the right people in the industry, since many jobs are filled by personal referral.
insert pun here* February 20, 2015 at 1:52 pm I’m going to disagree, slightly, with your disagreement: obviously, if you have real ethical objections to a certain kind of book (like if you are very religious, erotica publishing may not be for you; vegans may not want to work on certain kinds of cookbooks; people with strong political sentiments may not work for politically-oriented houses), there are houses you should say no to. But I think it’s good to see how different segments of the industry work — there is plenty of time to specialize later in your career. I’d never advise someone to work on something that they loathe, but something they are lukewarm or just uninformed about? Sure. In addition to the luck of knowing the right people, I would also add “marrying rich.” That’s a shockingly common one — very bright people working for not great wages because they’re married to someone in law/medicine/finance or who is independently wealthy.
Carin Siegfried* February 23, 2015 at 11:12 am I too am in book publishing and I have talked to loads of students and alumni at my college about the career path. I’m sorry, I do hate to give a personal pitch, but I wrote a book on the subject, The Insider’s Guide to a Career in Book Publishing, that I hope is helpful. I would also mildly disagree with #4 as it can be hard to transfer departments sometimes so, for example, if you end up in Sales but you’re dying to be an editor, that’s a (not impossible but) difficult switch to make. That said, I think way too many young adults want to be editors without considering (or even knowing about) all the other interesting jobs in the business, all of which pay better and have more openings with fewer applicants than Editorial. Working in a bookstore is amazing experience, although it’s not always valued as highly in publishing as it should be. If you’re applying for jobs in publishing but you want to be a writer, DO NOT mention that. People who work in publishing want to hire people who really want to work in publishing, not people who are trying to back-door their way into another job altogether. It’s not an advantage. #9 so so much! Read RECENT books. Not classics. Books published within the last 5 years, and don’t only read one single genre that you like, but branch out and try new things.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm I am a guilty party in this regard! When you got into a role in a way that’s nearly impossible to reverse-engineer and imitate (as I did), it feels really disingenuous to attribute your success to anything other than luck. I got my job because I had a particular combination of skills and interests that could have only been acquired through serendipity, and because I leveraged a connection that could likewise only been acquired through serendipity. No reputable career counselor would have ever said, “Take up distance running, do some freelance tech writing, and then cold email the acquaintance of a former sorority sister and tell him you’d love to work for his company. They’ll happen to have an entry-level position open that requires a writing skill set and an affinity for distance running, and he’ll happen to know the hiring manager. Oh, and before all this happens, you’ll unsuccessfully apply for about a million positions at the same company without even getting an interview.” If I were to try to distill my lucky break into actionable advice, I guess it would look like this: –Don’t be afraid to highlight your extracurricular interests on your resume and in your career search in general (even though lots of career advice cautions you specifically not to do this) –If you want to work somewhere, never ever ever give up, even when common sense and most decent career advice would suggest that you do exactly that –Go ahead and leverage even the weakest ties in your network–hey, the worst they can do is say no
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 6:08 pm OP, look at this. This is exactly what to do. Ask people their stories. People love to tell stories and it’s fun to listen. Then break it down. What happened? Here C Average, left no stone unturned. She talked to her connections even if they were third cousins twice removed. She did not take her life activities for granted, she looked for NEW ways to connect OLD familiar dots. I think the key here is she says she applied a million times to this company before she finally got an interview. She stuck with it, no matter how crappy she felt from all those rejections. It’s a lot of work but if you can make an inventory of things you have done and make an inventory of people you know- you will have a written reference right at your fingertips. My suggestion is to build these inventories as you go along- don’t just sit and make lists. Keep the lists handy and as something occurs to you write it down. Even if you do this 10% of the time, your mind will start thinking along these lines more and more. It will be easier to connect old dots in new ways. Here the goal is not to complete the list- the goal is to limber up your mind to think in new patterns that you can use to your advantage.
afiendishthingy* February 20, 2015 at 9:06 pm “Ask people their stories. People love to tell stories and it’s fun to listen. Then break it down. What happened?” Yes,exactly. Things like graduating into a good economy or being the grandson of the CEO of YourDreamCompany, that’s luck (and privilege). Or running into someone you haven’t seen in years at the gas station and they happen to be hiring for YourDreamJob. Having skills and experience? Not luck. Privilege played a role in me getting to where I am now, as my upper middle-class parents were able to lend and flat-out give me a fair amount of money to supplement my $20k salary at full-time paraprofessional jobs while I went to grad school at night and online. They also helped pay for private undergrad, including the semester abroad in Latin America where I became fluent in Spanish, and after college they helped me when my savings ran out during the year I spent sometimes-working-sometimes-bumming-around(and also brushing up on Spanish) in other Latin American countries. Thanks Mom & Dad, I am VERY lucky. However! I also worked my ass off to learn to speak Spanish without feeling like a fool and in my grad school course and at the low-paying paraprofessional jobs (which were invaluable experience for my current job) and studying for months for my professional certification exam, and those were the things that DIRECTLY helped me to get my current flexible-schedule, challenging, interesting position with supportive bosses, good coworkers, and a paycheck that’s not huge but more than meets my needs. Not luck. So I would ask what positions they held before the current one and what skills have been most useful in their career. And I just realized that I started with NotSoNewReader’s quote about people loving to tell their stories and then I accidentally wrote my autobiography. NotSoNewReader speaks the truth.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 10:09 am And I liked reading it. ;) I love how you broke it down. We all have assets, even when we don’t want to believe that. And just because an asset is not obvious does not mean it doesn’t exist. Figure out your assets and leverage your assets. My cousin went to an interview. He did procurement. The boss interviewed and in the course of the interview it came out that the boss needed xyz material. This was a difficult material to find and he had been searching for awhile. My cousin asked to use his phone (before cell phones), he called Bob. “Bob, I have a man here looking for xyz material. Can you help?” Bob said yes to my cousin and the boss told my cousin he got the job. The back story on this was my cousin had sent out hundreds of applications with no results. My cousin had reached new levels of despair. In the midst of all this blackness in his head, my cousin manage to connect old dots, leverage his relationship with Bob to make a good deal for Bob and New Boss and in turn get himself a job. When we break stuff down it is much easier to see how we can impact our own good fortune.
C Average* February 22, 2015 at 9:44 am Very slightly off-topic: One of the career sites I like posted a link to a really great piece this weekend that kind of nicely distills some of the stuff I was doing when I landed the job in question. Although I’m introverted by nature, I was really, really putting myself out there in ways that weren’t my norm. Maybe some of this will help others. http://www.brazencareerist.com/blog/2015/01/26/looking-for-a-job-5-things-you-need-to-know-about-yourself-first
literateliz* February 20, 2015 at 12:54 pm A few thoughts on this as it relates to publishing specifically… 1. Not sure what the gender breakdown of this panel you mention was, but supposedly a lot of women have a tendency to attribute their success to luck (as a way of being self-effacing and not taking credit for it), while men attribute their success to hard work. The publishing world skews heavily female, especially in editorial, so this was my first thought. 2. Reading between the lines, these people actually are telling you something very useful: that you cannot depend on an entry-level editorial job opening up when you are ready for it, so you need to be ready to hustle. I worked my ASS off to get my current (entry-level editorial) job. I did two unpaid internships while working a retail job. I volunteered to copyedit at a magazine for free. I went to every damn networking event I could find and read everything. I also had the incredible good luck to have the perfect position for me open up at one of the best publishing companies in San Francisco, right when I was finishing up my internships. I’ve been here for over two years now and have kept my eye on job boards, and in that time I’ve seen maybe three other editorial assistant positions open up in the area, and a small handful of other related jobs like copyeditor or “assistant to the publisher.” A few more in book marketing/publicity. It might be different in New York, but I understand it’s still very competitive. I love to talk to people who are interested in my field and I give them all the useful advice I can (insert pun here has some great advice above), but I would also feel like I was lying if I gave the impression that as long as you do exactly what I did, you’ll end up with an editorial job. I would have been fine either way, but with slightly different timing or choices, I could have ended up proofreading financial press releases, or doing publicity at a much smaller publisher, or pitching advertising to bloggers at a marketing startup (ugh). I try not to attribute everything to “luck” now that I’m aware of the gender divide and what I’m implying about myself when I say that, but since new grads often come in with unrealistic ideas about the industry, I also try to make it very clear that you can’t depend on things working out the way you want them to.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:14 pm Maybe try asking simply ‘How did you get here’. that can open them up to talking about their career path, risks they took, projects they took on. Honestly though, depending on industry and who you’re talking to, the person who had your job 10 years ago was probably in a very different spot than you were when you got it. Have you tried reaching out to people who are only a couple rungs above you as opposed to in the holy grail position? I’ve found that to be much easier and they are able to give you more direct answers you’re looking for. In one way, I got my job because of luck. I was working here part-time and a full-time job that was more in line with what I wanted to do happened to open up. To get the part-time job though I 1. Put together a thoughtful resume 2. Rehearsed talking points before my interview 3. Took a chance on a part-time job in hopes something would come from it Also ask: ‘What chances did you take that paid off’, ‘What would you say to someone who is trying to break into the industry’, ‘What other paths have you seen similar people take to get here’
August* February 20, 2015 at 1:27 pm I think the people whom you contacted have given you the honest answer. For many people, career is not something they have absolute control over. Being at the right place, at the right time is what makes the difference in many people’s career. That said, you can try to reach your dream job or build your dream career. You identify the gaps between your current position and the position that you want to go to. Work to fill those gaps. Be ready to take pay cuts or volunteer for projects if necessary to gain experience to reach the position and build your resume. When the right opportunity arises, give your best shot.
W* February 20, 2015 at 1:29 pm I’m an English Major working for a legal publisher now. I’m a recent grad and it’s my first real job. I got the job by applying to an online ad, no fancy networking or anything, so there’s hope. I don’t live in a city where publishing is a big industry like New York or Toronto either. I’m a Publications Assistant and most of what I do is just word processing. In fact, the job title used to be Word Processor. My job does not require a degree, and it’s open for anyone with just a high school diploma. If they hadn’t changed the title to something with Publishing/Publications in it, I doubt people would apply to be a word processor. My work is really unimpressive work, but once you’re in the door, you’re in the publishing environment and there will be new opportunities and room for growth. In a few years, I can move onto coordinating publishing production and so on. So don’t be afraid to apply for jobs that may seem beneath you. I know other English Majors who are keen on working in Editorial (which seems more “professional” or “esteemed”) or want to work for trade publishers (which pay the worst), but they’re still unemployed.
W* February 20, 2015 at 1:45 pm Just wanted to add that the publishing industry isn’t just trade publishing. I didn’t just look for publishing jobs in traditional publishing companies. There are publishing departments in different fields, and STM (scientific, technical, medical) or educational/academic publishers tend to be more financially stable as they’ll always have a target audience and can generate revenue. Even if you’re interested in working for trade or journalism, starting off at STM or an academic publisher may be better because they’re stable enough to provide training and can support your professional growth. I definitely find that’s the case with my company.
Pony tailed wonder* February 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm I heard the actor Karl Urban speak at one of those Comic Con things and someone asked him about how he felt about being an overnight success. He said that he wasn’t an overnight success and people could look at his resume and see that. He said that the harder he works, the ‘luckier’ he gets. He said that he is always trying to improve his acting skills and that he will never rest on his supposed laurels. He said that you should always keep learning about your job. He said he even still takes classes. I thought it was great career advice in general, not just for actors.
katamia* February 20, 2015 at 7:29 pm Been a fan of Karl Urban since the 90s (overnight success? hah!), so I love seeing him mentioned here, and I love his answer. It’s a great attitude.
Kathryn* February 22, 2015 at 8:13 am Both my husband and I are in our current jobs because we went to a party where a friend of a friend got drunk and had a bitch fest about work problems it turned out we could solve. Seperate parties. Mine involved going into an entirely new career field – they needed my skills but were looking in the wrong places to hire so weren’t finding any good candidates. My previous field has TONS of people with this skill set, and I’m not the most advanced practitioner, but I was (am) good enough to get things going. I learned a lot about my new field and pivoted that into a high visibility role doing really facinating, amazing work, and I can hold my own with people at the top of my field. Its awesome. And I can’t say that I got here by anything other than luck, being willing to apply my skills in new ways, and learning everything I could. I know its frusterating, but much of this has been outside of my control, I’m no more deserving of it than a bunch of other hardworking, smart people. (eh… I tend to have reasonably decent social skills, which gives me a bit of an edge in this field… a lot of my counterparts believe getting someone to help you do work is a magic power.) Demaning a formula that gives you total control and a list of things you can improve is awfully close to the Fundemental Attribution Error in action. Most people don’t deserve what they have, life isn’t fair like that.
Rant about Exit Interview* February 20, 2015 at 11:03 am You know what’s annoying, is when your boss knows there were personal relationship issues and really wants to know what he did or what went wrong (in a sincere tone)… and you hesitantly describe some things (even specific examples), and all you get are defensive comments (in a calm tone). So….. then what was the point of asking me???
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:12 pm Because she wanted to be the kind of person who asks that question even though it turned out she wasn’t the kind of person who could accept the answer.
AwesomeCreativePM* February 20, 2015 at 12:22 pm I agree, it’s annoying. Common sense is that you are leaving because there is an issue with the company. I had an exit interview after giving notice and I made sure that the exit interview would be about me. Once you start being negative, it becomes about them and you are leaving because you want to. Besides it helps leaving on a positive note even if the place sucked! You never know when you’ll cross paths again.
TNTT* February 20, 2015 at 1:01 pm I once was asked to be a witness to an exit interview (good start, right?) where exactly this happened. The boss asked for genuine feedback, the intern (!) gave it, and the boss actually yelled at her about how she doesn’t understand the industry and he does things the way he does because has so much experience. She cried, he yelled, it was horrible.
Seattle Writer Girl* February 20, 2015 at 1:58 pm Oh, this happened to me after being specifically told “we’re all friends here” and directly asked by my boss to “speak freely.” Got reamed out over the phone by a higher up telling me I needed to “check my assumptions” without actually explaining what about my assumptions was incorrect.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:33 pm Surely there is a name for this psychological phenomenon.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 6:20 pm “Tell me what I want to hear, don’t tell me the truth.”
Golden Yeti* February 21, 2015 at 1:21 am “I value your opinions…assuming they are the same as mine.” Totally have a boss like this. :)
Clever Name* February 20, 2015 at 2:36 pm This is why I didn’t even fill out my name or put “no comment” on my last exit interview form. My boss was a terrible boss (not to mention a terrible person who lied and blamed others for stuff he did), and he was the number 1 reason why I left.
PX* February 20, 2015 at 11:03 am All – advice on using a work contact to follow up on a job application? I’m currently working at company A, where I have very occasionally had to work with a rep from company B – but most of our conversation has been general chit chat at the coffee machine. I just applied for a job at company B (large multinational who use online application/Taleo, so no real information about a specific contact or hiring manager) – and I’m wondering if its appropriate to ask them to follow up/check on the application process/put in a good word for me to a hiring manager? The rep works in a different location (country) from the job I applied for – but I’m guessing they could find out internally if they really wanted to. So is this appropriate? If so, whats a good script given the caveats mentioned above?
RandomName* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am I’d let the person know you applied and ask if they know the hiring manager next time you’re chit chatting.
Dan* February 20, 2015 at 12:19 pm I work for Big Company, and if somebody were to say “I applied, can you help?” The answer’s no. Here, our external job ads suck ass, and I wouldn’t even know which recruiter or hiring manager to talk to. Now, we have a better internal referral system (same jobs, just more detailed information.) If I referred you, I know exactly what jobs I put you in for, who the recruiter is, and who the hiring manager is. At my company, you really, really want to use an internal referral if you can find one.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:18 pm You could casually mentioned you applied for a job but don’t expect anything. I asked my friend a bit about the hiring practices at her company (she does fundraising for a large hospital) and she basically said ‘I have no idea how any of that works. You just apply and someone contacts you. I wouldn’t even know who to talk to’ On another note, my sister works at a big public accounting firm and things are much different there- however, they are very big on referrals so that could be why the hiring is a much more open process there.
HP fan* February 21, 2015 at 4:26 pm Like Dan, I work for a big company with a sucky external job site, but a good internal one. The external one doesn’t show hiring manager names. But if I have an acquaintence who applied, I would be happy to look at the internal requisition and give you the hiring manager name so a follow up email can be sent. I probably won’t know the person, so I can’t be a reference, but I wouldn’t mind at all passing on the email address so you can at least follow up. If I was talking with you and you said, “I applied for a job and wanted to follow up with the manager, but the external site doesn’t show, would you look it up?” I would have no problem getting the req number from you and saying, “Looks like that’s Neville.Longbottom@Hogwarts.edu. I don’t know him, so using my name won’t help, but hopefully you can send over a great cover letter! Good luck!”
Gwen* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am What does a CEO actually do? I know that “shaping culture” and “guiding the company’s vision” are their goals but like…what do they do on a day to day basis? I just know a laundry list of things our CEO doesn’t do, and I’m curious!
MJH* February 20, 2015 at 11:29 am Not a CEO, but from what I have seen: they have meetings. They talk to their reports. They schmooze. They think about big picture stuff and try to find the right people to help make it happen. They network in the community a lot. They answer questions from their reports about how to handle X and Y situations. They communicate with the press. They communicate with the Board of Directors or whomever. They read a lot of emails.
De Minimis* February 20, 2015 at 11:33 am I work in government so it may differ somewhat from the private sector, but basically our CEO is responsible for our facility’s relationships with outside parties…governing boards, outside stakeholders, and relationships with our regional and national headquarters.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am Hahaha….I wonder myself what I actually do all day sometimes. Overall, I solve all kids of problems, big and small, short-term and long-term. That takes a lot of different forms – from communicating with stakeholders, to handling HR issues (20 employees, I’m also HR), to making long-term plans, to being the sounding board for problems, to holding/sharing institutional memory, to solving money problems, to getting the board to do what they need to be doing.
Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 12:24 pm At my last company, the CEO was the figurehead of the company and the COO was the guy who went in and got the day to day stuff done. So the CEO would come up with ideas of where he’d like the company to go, what new technologies we should implement, that kinda thing. He would also go and talk to industry leaders/ heads of state/ influential business people about them adopting and using our products. He was the “prestige” guy- basically if we wanted to schmooze a large company he’d be the one to go in and schmooze and get them to agree to working with us. The COO would be the one to handle the day to day of running the company- where money is spent, what the theme was for our next conference, just the nitty gritty stuff of running a business. He was where the buck stopped, basically. He’d been with the company since the beginning and had pretty much worked any and all jobs within the company and so he was really well qualified to make decisions impacting the company and those jobs.
De Minimis* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm We have a similar setup, we have an administrator that handles the day to day operational stuff. The CEO is more about the big picture, but also is the one that is held responsible for major issues, if goals aren’t being met, and so on.
Clever Name* February 20, 2015 at 2:42 pm The president and owner of our company really has very little to do with the day-to-day running of the company, but she is an incredibly busy person. Yes, she indeed shapes the culture, and she is leading us in a new direction in terms of how our organization is managed (we’re a small company and we’ve tripled in size the 3 years I’ve been here). She is an officer at the national level for a trade group for our company, she is on a major state regulatory board (appointed by the governor), she attends conferences where she represents our company and the trade group, she is developing new business in a new office in another state. A lot of what she does is indeed sit in meetings, but they aren’t BS meetings necessarily. She also occasionally acts as an expert witness, and she still does review some of our technical reports. So does she do “actual work”, but a lot of what she does probably doesn’t look like work to an outsider.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am Workplace Coach/Life Coach Does anyone have experience with this? Either the recipient of the services or you are one or you know someone that is one? Are these people/credentials taken seriously in the business world? I’m getting itchy in my current job to do something else (I’m an employee professional development trainer). One aspect of my current job that I’m getting kind of weary of is presenting training to different people all the time. Not one class is ever the same because of the mix of people, the class dynamics are different each time, and that’s not fun for me anymore. I have a desire to really dig in with a group, get to know their training needs, get to know their development needs and work with a group in-depth. I am considering training manager positions in private organizations. But I also like doing my own thing and wondered if workplace coaching is a legitimate path to follow. Just curious if anyone has any ideas about that – thanks very much!
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 11:57 am It depends so, so much on the person. I don’t think that people can become effective coaches by taking a class – the good ones, IMO, are already effective mentors and consultants. Some of them are basically pretending to be therapists. I’ve gotten better support and advice from natural mentors than I ever have from a paid coach.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:47 pm That’s good to know! I would agree that a natural mentor is absolutely priceless and how lucky a person is to find one. And pretending to be therapists – lol. I can see how some people would be attracted to coaching as a substitute for being someone’s shrink. That’s a danger to look out for.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:45 pm I’d also say that the better ones seems to have a niche where they are really knowledgeable, so they aren’t just providing generic listening/reframing. For example, if you’re coaching nonprofit executives, you should have a good bit of nonprofit experience so you know where people are coming from. The ones that aren’t so good seem to be really broad – and that starts to feel like they’re just looking for any way to get paid. I worked briefly with one who wanted to work with nonprofit executives, and felt like because she had no nonprofit experience, that she could provide a broader perspective – but really, she just didn’t get it, and a lot of time was spent with me telling her that she was way off base. So, I wonder if there’s a way for you to focus on coaching people who are in your field – trainers, HR people, etc.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm I think you would be absolutely awesome at this! I would go to you. It seems to be a really vague and open field, and I suspect it might have some strong regional tendencies–people who are doing regular corporate gigs in New York and DC (I met several at a conference once) are different from the person I know here who quit a small-town admin job and hung out her shingle. I don’t know if there are credentials that are really respected, but I’m betting there are plenty that aren’t, since there seem to be certificate mills in the area. Can you dig to see if there’s somebody whose trajectory or career you’d like to emulate, or nearly emulate? (Is there an AAM for coaching?) That could give you some indications.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:48 pm Thanks! Actually, now that you mention it, there is someone that comes to mind that I would reach out to. She’s not anyone I’ve worked with personally, but my coworker knows her through some other training stuff and I’d feel comfortable asking about the coaching aspect of what she does. Thanks for the idea,fposte!
HR Pro* February 20, 2015 at 1:45 pm I had an executive coach for over a year (I think that was a little longer than an average coaching engagement, FYI). It was really great and I’d definitely recommend it. I think the chemistry between you and your coach is very important, so if there isn’t good chemistry, then it wouldn’t work at all. There were helpful, concrete things I learned that I still use today. I’m also in HR and I’ve noticed a significant increase in the acceptance of coaching as a profession in the last few years. My current employer pays for (certain select) people to get coaching for 3 months. I’ve met several other HR people who have transitioned from HR to coaching. There also seems to be crossover between coaches and trainers – several trainers I know are also coaches. I’d say go for it!
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:49 pm That’s encouraging to know some trainers/HR folks you know have transitioned into coaching! Also good to hear that there’s growing acceptance for it as a legitimate profession. Thanks so much for your input, HR Pro!
HP fan* February 21, 2015 at 4:30 pm My company (financial) has started posting jobs for Retail Performance Coaches. They seem to work with a specific line of business and stick with that departner to learn/train the frontline workers on changes. I’m not one myself, but it seems to be growing in my industry.
Quitting* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am I am about to leave my first job. I plan to give two weeks’ notice as soon as I have another job lined up. This seems like a silly question, but how do you do it? Just tell your manager?
Bio-Pharma* February 20, 2015 at 11:06 am Yup, just tell your manager! Take a deep breath and have a few phrases prepared ahead of time. “a great opportunity came up…” etc
Quitting* February 20, 2015 at 11:10 am Ok, thank you! I have seen a lot of advice about strangely formal letters…
Bio-Pharma* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am One good way to end the (awkward) conversation is to ask things like “Would you like me to write a formal letter to HR?” or “Would you like to tell the rest of the team, or would you like me to?”
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 11:23 am I would write the letter anyway, unless you REALLY trust your boss. Tell them first, then you can give them the letter at the end of the conversation. You don’t want the boss to forget, or worse yet, “forget”, that you gave your notice or when, or what the terms were. (“You said you’d stay 6 months! And give birth to your replacement first! And turn us into a Fortune 100 company before you left!”)
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:32 am I think that would only be necessary in maybe 5% of companies…most bosses aren’t nuts like that. I know you’re exaggerating but I’d think someone would truly have to be a whackadoo to forget than an employee quit.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm I think (I hope!) that my employees trust me to be honest and fair with them, but I hope they don’t trust me to remember lots of details – I’ve got way to much going to for details to stick in my mind. I always appreciate an in-person conversation followed up by a quick letter or e-mail with their dates/plans. That was, there’s no room for anybody to misunderstand. Also, I’ve had a few people over the years quit (supposedly for another job) and then file unemployment. It makes my life much easier when all I have to do to contest their claim is to send in a copy of their resignation letter. So if I don’t get something in writing, I’ll usually ask. Don’t agonize over the letter, though.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 12:17 pm Well, like I (kind of) said in another comment today: it’s usually fine not taking extra precautions…until it isn’t. I’m just saying, if the OP here has any reason to be concerned or if they’ve seen any shenanigans from their boss or the company, I suggest it’s worth a couple of minutes effort being overly cautious in order to avoid the risk that they’ll be writing in next Wednesday with their epic tale of woe.
Quitting* February 20, 2015 at 11:17 pm I do really trust my boss. She’s fantastic, but there are problems in my workplace that are completely out of her control.
Katie* February 20, 2015 at 11:56 am At my last resignation I came with a short letter to hand him at the end of my verbal resignation, as a sign of goodwill. In California, it’s a lot easier to collect unemployment than in than in other states. Giving him my notice in writing was a sign that “I like you guys, I won’t do anything sleazy like trying to collect unemployment after voluntarily resigning, and here’s your backup.”
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:31 am I think people like to write a letter just to make sure the details of the remaining time are in writing, but it doesn’t have to be formal. Typically there are other things to work out with the transition anyway, so once those are hashed out it’s fine to just jot down an email with all of those details including your last day and have that serve as your paper trail. I had one that just naturally generated during the course of figuring out who would take on what responsibilities with my manager, so there wasn’t a need to write a separate letter or anything.
Samantha* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am Every place I have worked requires a letter for your file. I have always just handed this over after my face-to-face conversation with my manager.
The IT Manager* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am Yes. Preferably in person in private: “I just wanted to let you know, I’ve taken a new job. XX will be my last day”
AvonLady Barksdale* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am Wait until you have a written offer from the other job, then either ask your manager for a meeting or go into his/her office. You say, “I’ve accepted an offer from New Job– my last day here will be on X [two weeks from today].” There’s some other stuff you can say, like you’ve enjoyed your time at your current job (if that’s true) and ask if there’s anything you can do to make the transition easier, but really, that’s about it. I have also followed up with an email so there’s a “paper trail”, and some bosses ask for a letter of resignation. But a conversation should do it. Good luck!
HeyNonnyNonny* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am Yeah, I had prepared a paper that said pretty much that. I gave verbal notice and then handed over the paper so that it could be on file.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:24 am Written offer with a starting date and you’ve accepted it. We’ve had to amend that rule a couple of times :)
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:22 pm Yes to all of this. Seems like some companies will make you write a letter but that seems like more of a formality for HR. Your boss will probably be happy and might ask some questions about what you’re doing and where you’re going. But AvonLady Barksdale pretty much covered it!
Quitting* February 20, 2015 at 11:19 pm Thank you for bringing that up. I’ll wait until I’ve accepted an offer and gotten everything really lined up.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:25 am If it were me I would write out a couple of sentence just to practice what I am going to say. Don’t actually read off of the paper but it’s nice to rehearse ahead of time instead of thinking of it on the spot.
Swedish Tekanna* February 20, 2015 at 11:25 am In the UK they often ask for confirmation in writing, even if you have told your manager/HR or whoever. Sometimes it is in the contract but they also like it as it tidies things up legally and it is harder for an employee to then claim the role was terminated or s/he was coerced into resigning. But an employer will always tell you anyway if they want a letter or an email so I shouldn’t worry too much. Nothing is a silly question when you haven’t done it before. Good luck!
Chloe Silverado* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am Just don’t do what I did. I walked into my manager’s office, took a deep breath…and burst into tears.
AvonLady Barksdale* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am Aw man! I can see myself doing the same thing. I’ve burst into tears waaaaaaay too many times. :)
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 7:43 pm I give my resignations in writing because it’s too easy to have misunderstandings over the date of the last day. It’s also an opportunity for me to thank the boss for the opportunities she gave me while working there. This works into three or four sentences. I don’t put a lot into it. While it may not be mandatory, I think it helps to “make it real” the boss can be less apt to try to sweep it under the rug or hem and haw about it.
LouG* February 20, 2015 at 11:04 am Bereavement leave policies: my employer gives bereavement leave for immediate family members, which does not include grandparents. Is this a common policy? It seems especially cruel to me right now.
Aunt Vixen* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am I don’t know a lot about a range of bereavement policies, but I’m sorry for your loss.
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:12 am Doesn’t it? That’s unfortunate. But that’s just for paid days off. You should still be able to take time, just paid by your personal time. Right? And condolences.
SLG* February 20, 2015 at 11:14 am I think this varies pretty widely by company. My company offers something like 3 days for the death of a parent or child, and 1 day for any other family member or family member of your spouse. My spouse’s company offers bereavement time only for immediate family members. Which meant that when we traveled for my his aunt’s funeral, I used bereavement time but he had to take a vacation day. It was weird (although we were grateful we could go at all).
Anie* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am Can you imagine your child dying and only taking three days off? I don’t even have children, but I can’t imagine any of my co-workers coming in for a solid month.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:58 am Unfortunately, I think that’s about what organizations can offer, rather than what people need. I think most places that have bereavement time do also offer personal/vacation days, so there are those possibilities; of course, for a lot of places you don’t have any of those options, even in the face of tragedy.
Nerd Girl* February 20, 2015 at 5:00 pm Every time I’ve ever reviewed the bereavement policy for the company I worked for I’ve thought this exact thing.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 8:52 pm Yeesh. I probably would have to take a leave of absence if my husband died, which I wouldn’t expect my employer to bankroll, but very weird that child/spouse is on the same level as parent. Is it wrong to think of them as deaths that are not supposed to happen vs. supposed to happen? Of course you’re devastated that your parent died, but it is an inevitable event, whereas most people expect to not outlive a child.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:18 am Ours includes grandparents but draws the line for aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I think it’s pretty common to have a line drawn, and that unfortunately means some people are going to have beloved relatives that fall on the outside of it. I’m sorry that’s happening to you, and I join with Anie in hoping you can take personal days.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:27 am Mine is the same. Parents, siblings, children, and grandparents I believe of you or a spouse.
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm Mine is the similar, but we don’t get three days for a grandparent of a spouse — just your own grandparents.
Krom* February 20, 2015 at 11:20 am I’m so sorry for your loss. My office does not have an official bereavement leave policy but when my grandfather died (who I was close with) I talked with my manager and they were very helpful on an individual level. Perhaps if you spoke with someone they would be able to accommodate you without making a blanket change (blanket policies always have to have an arbitrary cut off, which hurts some individuals).
the gold digger* February 20, 2015 at 11:38 am I worked in a nightmare position in corporate finance years ago. In at 7 a.m., out at 9 p.m, counseled once for leaving work at 6 p.m. (Not for missing a deadline, not for work quality – for walking out at 6 p.m., which was the end of the official work day.) When my dad was dying, I was gone for two weeks. I told them not to pay me – I had just started the job three months prior. They just shrugged and said, Nah, too much trouble to deal with payroll. Don’t worry about it.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:20 am I believe most I’ve heard about do include grandparents, but bereavement policies do tend to be depressingly restrictive – I’ve never heard of one that covered anyone outside of your family, for example. So I guess the answer to your question is that while this one sounds a little more strict than usual, it’s not totally ridiculous compared to how they usually are.
NoPantsFridays* February 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm Yeah – I’d be far more devastated if a close friend died than if a distant relative died. Everyone’s life is different, but they have to draw the line somewhere. I’ve even heard of some that exclude stepfamily, so stepsibs or stepparents. I don’t remember what ours says exactly, but I know it’s in the employee handbook I got, and I think it includes grandparents. It’s also interesting when they have guidelines on which conflicts of interests need to be declared that don’t include close relationships one might have with stepfamily, or siblings’ children, or parents’ siblings, etc.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 7:56 pm This. My immediate family is gone and I don’t like the idea that a company defines who your family is for you. At this stage of the game, my family is whomever I am have build close bonds with. It rankles me because I was never one to use up bereavement time anyway. If I am asking for time it’s because it’s a big deal. In my 35 plus years working that I have taken bereavement leave twice. It used to be that you could ask for time to go to a funeral and people trusted that you were using good judgement in making that request. I hope this changes because our (society’s) definition of family changed quite a while ago.
JC* February 20, 2015 at 11:23 am I’m sorry for your loss. I’m not sure what is standard, but when I worked for the federal government they had a very specific set of relatives whose deaths you could use sick leave for. It did include grandparents, although it did not include your spouse’s grandparents, so when my grandfather died I could take sick leave but my federal employee husband had to take vacation leave. My current non-profit employer has catch-all “emergency leave” and does not prescribe bereavement of whose deaths it could be used for.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 11:28 am I’ve never seen grandparents included in bereavement leave. However, some employers are more flexible than others if you ask.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 11:30 am I checked, ours just say “immediate family member or loved one”. But some companies offer better benefits than others. I’m sorry for your loss.
CheeryO* February 20, 2015 at 11:42 am When one of my grandfathers died, I was in a job that didn’t include grandparents in their definition of “immediate family.” I don’t know if it’s common or not, but I remember feeling really bad that I had to take an unpaid day off for his funeral. I feel for you, and I hope you can work something out with your employer.
bad at online naming* February 20, 2015 at 11:49 am My company does , but draws the line elsewhere – however, it also has a “talk to your manager” clause if you could use more time than what is automatically granted. I can’t really see many managers here saying no to a politely worded request about extending the policy. My condolences.
Rita* February 20, 2015 at 11:53 am I’m very sorry for your loss. Ours is three days for immediate family, defined as: spouse, parents, stepparents, siblings, stepsiblings, children, stepchildren, grandparents, grandchildren, father-in-law, or mother-in-law. One day for aunts, uncles, cousins, and other in-laws, and case by case for close non-family members. Though with this company, I bet they would be accommodating to extend that in certain situations. I feel like bereavement is impossible to pin down to a policy. My old job gave me an entire week off when my cousin died suddenly in a pretty tragic circumstance. I ended up going in for a few hours that week (mostly to escape my family) and it helped that it was over the summer and slow. But when my aunt died of cancer a few years later, I didn’t take any time off (she lived 1,000 miles away and I had pretty much no relationship with her). I think a good employer would be flexible and accommodating.
H* February 20, 2015 at 11:56 am It seems to vary between policies. I of course was working at a place that did not include grandparents this past summer when both my grandparents died, and couldn’t afford to take the unpaid time off I would have needed to to really sort myself out. My dad, however, got five days and they were just (I mean, not “just”) his in-laws. Sincerest condolences for your loss, and I hope even without an inclusive bereavement policy you’re able to take the time you need.
Hlyssande* February 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm Mine gives 3 days for immediate family (parents, siblings) and one day for non-immediate family (grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins). It’s never enough. Since I live far away from my family, I’m banking vacation time against when my grandmother passes away. She’s 103 and still in fairly good health (and living in her own house!!1), but I know there’s not much longer there. I’m sorry for your loss.
primary buffer panel* February 20, 2015 at 4:37 pm I think my company has an official policy somewhere, but I’ve never heard it quoted. When my in-laws died, they just told me to take whatever time I needed to deal with it. Same when my mom and later my dad passed. Frankly, the people who were a huge pain in the ass over this kind of thing was my kids’ high school. My daughter was put on probation from the National Honor Society because I pulled her out of school for a few days to attend her grandfather’s funeral. Yer gorram right I complained – it made no difference.
catsAreCool* February 20, 2015 at 10:25 pm When my grandma passed away, my company let me have some time off to fly up there and attend the service. I had the impression that this was standard.
Apollo Warbucks* February 21, 2015 at 6:26 am I dony know how common it is but My last firm didn’t include grand parents in bereavement leave, and I had such a row with HR and the department head when someone I supervised had ran out I’d PTO and they wanted to dock his pay for a the day off he wanted for his grand mothers funeral.
mdv* February 22, 2015 at 4:41 pm I work for a department at a state university, and whether or not to allow use of bereavement for not direct family members is at the discretion of the supervisor/director. I was able to combine 6 days of bereavement with vacation time to spend 17 days in Germany when my grandmother passed away there. (I live in the US.)
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:05 am OH GOOD! I have a question that’s really vexing me. OK – I’m a manager. I have an employee who is having issues who I’m working with to improve performance and behavior – I don’t want to get into the whole history of that again. Anyway, new issue with this person – apparently when I have meetings to discuss concerns I have, he goes and tells the team “the boss is on my case again” or “the boss is pissed at me” or things along those lines. So the team, who I have been VERY careful not to let see me taking disciplinary action, is all aware of it. Now, they usually tell me at some point (not like a tattle-y way, but a brief mention some weeks later), because they’re generally really frustrated with him too, and they tell him things like “sounds like Katie is doing her job.” So – my question – do I bring this up with him or just let the team keep policing it. I think he’ll stop soon since he’s not getting much of a reception for this – they don’t have the same problems with me so I don’t think they’re going to entertain much of these complaints. Plus, it might be good for them to know I AM taking action against a poor performer. On the other hand, it speaks to a general lack of professionalism and discretion. So do I tell him to knock it off, or leave it alone? I’m leaning toward leaving it alone.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 11:10 am I’d leave it alone* and assume he’s making himself look bad to the rest of your team, but I’d also take it as further confirmation that he’s unprofessional and has bad judgment and that you need to replace him. * But if you ever did want to address it and make him uncomfortable about what he’s saying, you could make the point to him by saying, totally genuinely, “I’m surprised that you feel our conversations are signs that I’m ‘pissed off’ at you or ‘on your case.’ I’m hoping that by working together we can get you to a place where you’re successful in this role. Is there a reason you’re taking this differently?”
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am Thanks – that’s a good point, and that’s sometime I’ve been wanting to talk to him about – he over personalizes feedback. I try to make it clear it’s about his work, not him, but he seems to think I’m really out to get him. Unfortunately, I really am on his case about a lot of legitimate issues (I try to focus on the big stuff) so it probably feels that way.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 11:18 am Yeah, but there’s “on someone’s case” because you need to be (the situation here) and “on someone’s case” because you’re just hassling them for no known reason. I’m sure he’s talking about it like the latter (because people don’t go around saying “man, I am really screwing up, and Katie has to watch me like a hawk as a result”), which is why it’s annoying.
NacSacJack* February 20, 2015 at 12:03 pm It is personal…to him. Men have a tendency to validate themselves by their jobs. This is why a lot of make retirees die or start to suffer ailments shortly after retirement. Taking away a man’s job is very debilitating because until recently, there was this perception that the man is the breadwinner and provider of the house. Keep making it clear to him that it is not personal, its business. Repeat it many times.
afiendishthingy* February 20, 2015 at 10:15 pm I’m a thin-skinned woman and I constantly have to remind myself that professional feedback from my supervisors, not mention occasional screaming diatribes from clients who are mostly angry about things that have nothing to do with me, are not personal attacks. (It’s harder with those shouty clients, since they are actually yelling at me, but they don’t actually know what I’m like outside of my brief interactions with them, and I know for a fact I’m delightful. So I vent and debrief with my supervisors or coworkers, determine if the rude person had valid complaints about my work so I can address them, and try not to lose sleep over it.) But even though I know I SHOULDN’T take it personally, it’s hard to turn off the voice in my brain saying “I SCREWED UP EVERYTHING SO I’M OBVIOUSLY A TOTAL LOSER.” Men definitely aren’t the only ones who feel at least partially personally defined by their professional competence. Feeling annoyed or ashamed or depressed when your boss gives you critical feedback is not ideal, but you can have those feelings and still take the feedback to heart and correct the performance issues. Katie’s employee seems to be acting like a teenager, unable to connect the dots between his own behavior and the resulting disciplinary action. “I stole $50 from my mom’s purse and got a homeless guy to buy us Boone’s Farm and cigarettes and she like went CRAZY because she had to pay the electric bill or some s*%#, I don’t know I wasn’t really listening, and she took away my car and grounded me for a month. GOD I don’t what her problem is, she just hates me and wants my life to suck. I think she’s a sociopath.”
TeapotCounsel* February 20, 2015 at 11:10 am My $0.02: Leave it alone. Sounds like the team is doing some of the correcting for you, which is a typical (and good) team dynamic. >Plus, it might be good for them to know I AM taking action against a poor performer. Yes, this. And what better way to have that communicated than by the poor performer himself.
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm I agree. This actually worked out well in my favor one time with a staff person who was really having issues and it was affecting the team. He would say things to his co-workers about getting in trouble or whatnot, but since I wasn’t discussing it with the rest of the team, and there wasn’t marked improvement, it was really the only way they were knowing that I was addressing it. I tend to find that in these situations, you can’t really control what they are going to say to their coworkers, and since it doesn’t particularly look bad to the rest of the staff, I would leave it alone. If he was outright lying (“Katie the Fed threatened me!”) or making you look bad in some other way, I would be more inclined to address it, because to me that seems way more like an additional performance issue.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:11 am I think what this really comes down to is how much negativity armor your other employees have. It’s possible to not engage in someone’s whining while still being infected by its presence. I used to sit next to two people who would spend all day complaining to each other – never with me involved – and it made me miserable. If your team seems otherwise positive and happy and is fine with just deflecting the conversation and moving on, I don’t think you need to do anything. If they seem tired of having to listen to him whether it’s a conversation or just a diatribe, I think including “having a positive attitude” and “only addressing issues with me with me” as points in his improvement plan is worthwhile and valid.
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am I would leave it alone, but man, this would really tank my motivation to keep working with him towards improving.
snarkalupagus* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am I’d lean toward leaving it alone. Your team knows he’s a poor performer, and I agree with your feeling that it’s probably good for them to know that you’re doing something about it. They don’t need to know details, just that there’s something happening. That they tell him that you’re doing your job is actually a pretty big vote of confidence in you. If he’s a poor performer even in light of the work you’re doing with him, that’s what speaks to a general lack of professionalism. Bellyaching about it as you being on his case speaks to a lack of self-awareness, self-discipline, and personal accountability–three important components of professionalism. Sounds like your team knows that he’s blaming you for his own shortcomings, and I’d wager that they’re pleased to hear that you’re doing something about it. I’d leave it be.
Golden Yeti* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am If he’s already being sensitive about it, my impression would be leave it alone for now, but if it keeps on, mention that other people are coming to you about it because they’re getting annoyed. At the same time, he may need a reminder that there is a huge difference between feedback designed to improve performance and an actually pissed off boss.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:27 am “there is a huge difference between feedback designed to improve performance and an actually pissed off boss.” True – although this particular person sometimes pushes my buttons to the point that I have to say “let’s revisit this Monday after you’ve had some time to think about it” because I’m worried I’ll lose my cool. GAHH.
afiendishthingy* February 20, 2015 at 9:32 pm Ok, so sometimes you are actually pissed off, being a human and all. But you’re professional enough to wait until the steam stops pouring out of your ears before bringing him in a for a calm, discreet conversation. And you ARE giving feedback designed to improve performance – or get enough documentation to get rid of him, but I’m sure you’d be thrilled with improved performance! It’s not like you’re writing him up because he has an obnoxious laugh and you really resent what he said about Ringo being an untalented hack riding the other Beatles’ coattails. Good luck!
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:28 am I have really enjoyed following this ongoing story. I would also leave it alone. Since he doesn’t seem to get it bring it up probably won’t fix the situation.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 am I would enjoy it if it were someone else’s story :) I had nightmares about doing his performance appraisal the other day. Like, actually nightmares. I think a lot of the problem is that our leadershp thinks people are interchangeable – he was always going to be a bad fit here so he shouldn’t have been placed on the team. So in some ways he was set up for failure, and it’s not entirely his fault. People aren’t widgets – what works in one environment might not work in another. So in addition to taking all the necessary steps, I’m trying to get leadership to be more careful in how they realign people.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 12:30 pm A) you’re being an awesome manager, I wanted to remind you of that B) I forget, are you able to move forward with disciplinary actions with him?
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 12:34 pm Thank you :) I am, but I’m laying the groundwork at the moment by setting Very Clear goals and timelines and things. Most of my people don’t need a lot of specific instruction but I’m making sure I’m covering all possible arguments by making everything Extremely Clear. Sigh.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 12:35 pm Also I second people are not interchangeable. That’s why people job hunt for fit and skills and stuff. Like job hunting 101.
LCL* February 20, 2015 at 11:48 am I would be a little sneaky with this one. I would tell him “some of the team has told me that they know I have been talking to you. I want to reassure you that all of our conversations about this have been and will be kept strictly confidential by me.” This reminds him that these issues should be kept confidential, without you having to tell him to stop talking about it.
Dan* February 20, 2015 at 12:30 pm We have this weird obsession with “privacy” in this country. Sure, it’s pretty damned rude to be broadcasting somebody else’s business all over the office, but it’s not illegal. So when you’ve got a problem employee making inaccurate statements, frankly, a reasonable thing to do is correct the record. (Put it this way… he’s sort of waiving any sort of right to privacy by trash talking you.) The one thing I hate the most in the office is when management lets rumors fly and does nothing to correct them. If I know you and think you’re reasonable, and somebody starts talking about you in ways that aren’t consistent with what I know of you, I actually really want to know if I see you through rose colored glasses or if the other person is right and I should change my perception.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm This is a really good point, but it’s probably unnecessary in this case. The team knows the guy is a poor performer and it seems they’ve figured out that Katie is dealing with it, so it’s not like they’re suddenly going to start believing him when he says she is hassling him.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 1:18 pm In fairness, I AM giving him a hard time. It’s just that it’s related to work and he deserves it.
Lizzy May* February 20, 2015 at 12:36 pm I agree to leave it alone. He’s doing himself no favours by bringing it up and as long as you don’t see it effecting his work or the office morale it’s more trouble than it’s worth. I tend to think it’s silly to try to police what your employees talk about unless they’re lying or talking about something that has to be confidential. It tends to stir up resentment even if it’s about something a smart employee would never talk about.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 12:55 pm I’d leave it alone too, but he sounds like the type of person who may have a tendency to twist things around to suit his own agenda, or try to garner sympathy for himself. So just by reading this, I wouldn’t be surprised if later he’s suddenly upset about everyone knowing about what’s going on, and then being mad at you for airing his dirty laundry (even though you haven’t). So just be aware of that, and if he tries to go there, shut it down by reminding him that it was his choice to share the details of your meetings with the rest of the team, not yours.
Observer* February 20, 2015 at 3:05 pm Unless I’m mixing this up with a different case, what he is doing is actually a good thing, although incredibly stupid and unprofessional on his part. By talking like this, he is underscoring the fact that he has workplace issues. And, he’s letting people know something that you really do want them to know – ie that you are working seriously with him on the issues that they are seeing – without the need for you to act in an unprofessional. If he says anything to you about this, you could point out that you have been trying to be discreet to protect his privacy (and dignity.)
Crush! Kill! Destroy!* February 20, 2015 at 4:44 pm Yeesh, how long have you been dealing with this guy? I don’t mean to be callous, and I’m sure you’ve got good reasons, but – it sure seems like this guy is drawing it out.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 4:55 pm I can appreciate that but all I’ll say is there is a process and I’m following it.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 5:15 pm Actually, no – I’ll say more. This is NOT an easy thing. I could do the easy thing and shlep the problem off on another unsuspecting organization (which is essentially how we ended up with him), or I can do the right thing and follow the arduous bureaucratic process to either improve his performance or pursue discplinary action. I gave him a few months upon arrival to adjust to a new assignment because it was very different, and I gave him training – that’s fair and right. Once it was clear that wasn’t going to be enough, then I had to start a process. But I’m trying to do this right so I can appreciate that from the outside it looks like I’m just letting things fester, I’m not. I’m not going into a ton of detail because I’m not comfortable doing that, so I should probably just stop posting about it altogether.
Crush! Kill! Destroy!* February 20, 2015 at 7:40 pm +10,000 Respect. (for the record, I didn’t mean to imply that you were doing it ‘wrong’. It’s more like: you’ve got a lot more tenacity than I do!)
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 7:58 pm Thanks. I think it hit a nerve because I am just. so. frustrated. And stressed and tired but this situation is like a nonstop pebble in my shoe.
J.B.* February 20, 2015 at 8:08 pm As a government employee I want to sincerely thank you for following the process and neither ignoring nor railroading. Either stinks for other employees.
Anon Accountant* February 22, 2015 at 10:42 pm The government red tape of documenting performance issues and eventual dismissal if needed. Sometimes these organizations really tie management’s hands.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 8:16 pm I have seen bosses lay it on the line: “There will be no repeating this discussion outside of this office. Period.” OR: “If you discuss this outside of this meeting here, then x or y will happen next.” Where x or y is something about insubordination, or trying to rope others into something that is not their concern and hijacking the work process itself. The other technique I have seen used is “Several people have complained to me that you are complaining about our meetings during the work day.” Point blank let him know that what he says is repeated to you. Maybe consider it from the angle of “do I have the energy to pursue this problem on top of all the other problems?” OTOH, it might be helpful in building your case because you can show that you have put your best foot forward in counseling him and his response is to bad mouth you and your discussions together to the entire group. This clearly shows that he has no intention of following through with what you have told him to work on. And it is a talking point when you want to say the situation is not fixable.
catsAreCool* February 20, 2015 at 10:30 pm I think leaving it alone sounds good. His co-workers are probably pleased to know that he’s being dealt with.
Creag an Tuire* February 20, 2015 at 10:49 pm Y’know, it’s probably wishful thinking that -anything- will get through this guy’s skull, but you’d think that after his attempts to commiserate with his peers were met with either stony silence or outright support for the boss, he’d start to realize the problem was him?
HigherEd Admin* February 20, 2015 at 11:05 am I posted last week about a bad phone interviewer and a strange follow-up assignment. I had my HR phone screen yesterday and I really wish the HR conversation had happened first. I found out we were very far apart in terms of salary expectations (and that Glassdoor was right about this company paying lower than market value), and we essentially parted ways. I wish I knew this before I spent nearly an entire day completing the follow-up assignments!
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:26 pm Feel the same way! I just had a phone interview and while it wasn’t a huge time suck, we butted heads a bit at the end of the interview over salary. Wish we would have addressed it sooner!
Golden Yeti* February 20, 2015 at 11:06 am It’s been a week, guys. Just this week, we lost 30% of our office staff. I’m struggling with jealousy of those who can have great opportunities come out of the blue just when they need it, or who can afford to just quit miserable jobs without financial concern (or a backup plan). Last week, one of the managers dared to correct one of “the untouchable ones,” even though this person was definitely out of line. This manager did it in the most diplomatic way possible and didn’t even direct the correction to this person specifically. Of course, the correct-ee got majorly offended and has been freezing this manager out as much as possible all week. Yesterday, one of the bosses was getting onto me for letting the manager of a department (who has a budget) know that there were outstanding balances in her department. This manager was concerned and brought it up to said boss the day before, who basically tried to divert the conversation. This boss emailed me a correction the next day, saying these matters should be brought to the financial boss and not the department head. (I had been bringing it up to the financial boss, but that boss has been out and these vendors were getting desperate.) In the correction, the boss went on to say basically that these things should be kept secret even from department managers and should be addressed by the bosses only. He then referenced the other situation with the correction, saying with “personal matters” feelings can get hurt, and you don’t want hurt feelings to accumulate in an office. Basically, the impression I got was that this boss wants any issues–even if they’re legitimate–to be ignored or swept under the rug. Even though they say they want positive changes to happen here, if suggested changes get uncomfortable (or hit too close to home), they wimp out. I just don’t want to deal with this anymore. I cannot even describe how much I don’t want to be at work today, and how much I want out of this job.
Ali* February 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm I’m with you. One of my work friends got a promotion this week, which comes with a pay bump and better experience for him. And I know my response should be “Oh Friend congratulations you deserve this!” but I don’t really want to talk to him right now because I’m envious that he got the pay bump he kept telling me he needed, whereas I’m on the outs with my team and company. It’s so difficult.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 1:20 pm *hugs, kicks wimpy bosses in the kiester with skates on*
Golden Yeti* February 20, 2015 at 5:05 pm Thanks, ladies. It’s nice to have someone to commiserate with sometimes. :)
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 8:20 pm Oh God. Not another one of those bosses that does not want anyone having hurt feelings. Unless of course, it’s you, then that is okay. ugh,ugh, ugh.
Sharon* February 20, 2015 at 11:06 am I have a mini-vent I want to talk about and see how other people handle this. I seem to be rather a process person. I don’t demand absolute conformity to the process because bringing things to a crawl purely for beaurocratic reasons is stupid and inefficient. I also tend to be a rule-bender rather than a rule-book-thumper. But I do prefer when things are efficient. The older I get the less tolerance I seem to have for things like the following: Company has a process in place. It’s documented and there is some effort to conform to it. I am generally second in the order of workflow with some overlap with the first and third actions/teams. Flexibility is good, we need to be able to sometimes smush two actions into one in order to deliver product faster. My issue is with one person, a manager of the team ahead of me in the workflow. She ends up doing tasks (or having her reports do tasks) that I should do, but as part of her initial action. Let me explain better. In our workflow, her team takes care of strategy, meaning advance planning of projects and feasibility studies. My part of the workflow is tactical; requirements gathering and getting customer buy-in for our implementation dates. Lots of times this strategy manager has her team do the customer buy-in and some of the requirements gathering at the same time as working on the feasibility study. I feel like I can’t jump ahead and do my tasks before she can because I don’t even know if we’ll do the project since the feasibility study isn’t done. This week she jumped ahead even further by declaring the end of this week to be the end of requirements gathering period for a fast-turnaround project before I’ve even done the requirements because I’m waiting for output from her team that won’t be done for another week or two. Everybody seems okay with this, that we’ll officially pass the “stage gate” even though the work’s not done for it, no big deal. But then you have to wonder why we even have the stage gates or the process! It also bothers me that there seems little solution to this. Upper management assumes rightly that we’re all professionals who will play nice and get the work done. I’m on board with that. Except for the people like this manager who subtly DON’T play nice. She’s asserting her preferences for how things are done, and the other managers (especially mine) go along with it because they’re professionals who play nice. This management approach tends to allow the strong personalities to dictate policy and I don’t think that’s quite what they want. When I bring up the issue professionally, people like my manager agree that it’s not ideal but don’t really do anything. If I make a stink then I’m the unprofessional person. I guess my solution is to just not care about the process, right? I run into this at every company I work for!
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am Ooooh, I hate stuff like this. Circumventing these processes is like skimping on building codes. Sometimes you can get away with it, and you might save a little money. But other times you’ll be caught and you’ll have to retrofit it, which is a lot more work than just doing it right to begin with, or it could mean a complete teardown of everything because you can’t retrofit some omissions. As you can probably tell, I agree with you, but sometimes you have to say “OK, but if we skip these steps, we risk having to start this project all over again if the requirements change.” It might help if you have an example of when this happened, or could give a well-thought-out, thoroughly researched theoretical example. But sometimes they have to learn by making expensive, preventable mistakes first.
Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm Honestly it sounds like you have more of a Waterfall approach to Project Management and this other manager has more of an Agile approach. You like things to progress from A to B to C in such a way that A is fully complete before B is started, and B is fully complete before C is started. However this other manager (barring any ill-intent on her part, which is impossible for me to know from your letter) is just wanting to get to C as fast as possible, so if she feels like A and B can be done concurrently and C can be truncated as a result of that, she’ll do things that way. Honestly I would think this could be worked out by sitting down with this manager and talking about how your team and her team can work concurrently towards the same things while honoring both the written processes and your individual project management styles.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:57 pm This is really interesting to me–I’m somebody who can get stuck on the process, and as with so many things I don’t always realize that the other person isn’t just doing process wrong but is doing it differently. Thanks for the insight.
Sharon* February 20, 2015 at 1:27 pm Except it’s not MY process. It’s one that the department came up with and documented and seem to comply with. I’m actually rather new here and trying to figure out how things work while making the fewest mistakes, so her shortcuts – along with stepping on my toes by doing my work before I can get to it – is making it hard for me to know the right things to do at the right times.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:20 pm I don’t think that really changes the value of Dawn’s suggestion, though–it’s not like you can wave a wand and make her not be that way, so why not meet and figure out a way to mesh the different approaches? I get the frustration that somebody’s not doing what they should be–I’d be frustrated too–but the goal isn’t really to correct her but to move forward, right?
Meg Murry* February 20, 2015 at 3:50 pm Was your role un-filled for a while so she got used to doing B since there wasn’t a person there to do it? I think this is a good chance to play the “I’m new” card – as in, “I’m new here, but I thought I was supposed to do B after you do A, but you already did B on project XYZ. Is there a reason you did B instead of waiting for me?” Or substitute [Jane} did A instead of [you] if you take this to your boss. That way, its not tattling, its you trying to understand your job better. Its possible the documentation is out of date, regularly ignored, or doesn’t include the “except in case L, M, N, P” exceptions.
Sharon* February 20, 2015 at 3:57 pm There was a reorg before I came on board, and she used to be a manager on the tactical side. So that’s why she keeps doing tactical work. The whole strategy thing is new and I don’t think she’s really fully embraced that. I don’t think there is a solution. My manager and the manager I had when I was first hired have both commented privately that she oversteps her bounds a lot. If THEY can’t/won’t do anything about it, it’s not my place to try to fix it. I mostly wanted to vent. :-) It’s sort of like I should be happy if she does my work, it’s less for me to do, right? But somehow it bugs me.
The difficult art of mud-breathing* February 20, 2015 at 5:04 pm I sympathize, this sounds very close to her trying to make your job obsolete. Are there any negative business consequences to her not following the mandated process? I obviously don’t know all of the details, but I’d assume the process is in place for a reason? If she’s breaking the process and stomping all over something important – that’s bad. If she’s breaking the process but everything’s okay – I hate to say this, but maybe the process needs to be re-evaluated? If that’s the case – maybe this is an opportunity for you to sound the call for change? I know this is all hand-wavy and stuff. But if it does happen that the process is re-defined, wouldn’t you want to be in on it?
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 8:29 pm Have you asked your boss what to do when she takes your work and leaves you with nothing? There is no point to having you work there if there is nothing to do. Thought #2: Should the sequence of steps in the process be changed? Is information from step 2 necessary to complete step 1? Sometimes this happens where process order needs to be tweaked because of subtle changes that have worked into the system over time. When was the process order set? how long has it been since anyone has reviewed the process order? Thought #3. Maybe the two of you could just trade jobs? If she likes your work so much she could do that, and you could do hers?
kristinyc* February 20, 2015 at 11:06 am I have great news – I got the nonprofit job I’ve been talking about (and interviewing for…) for months! I’ll start at the end of March. I got the salary I wanted, and I’m really excited about it!! Now’s the fun part – I have to buy pretty much an entirely new work wardrobe! I haven’t had a dress code at work in about 5 years, and before then, I wore really ugly stodgy suits (that don’t fit anymore). I’ve been browsing Corporette and trying to figure out how to dress stylishly (I am in NYC after all) and professionally.
Moonpie* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am Congratulations!! I found the Vivienne Files thanks to a previous open post blog list, and I really love her posts on how to start from scratch building a classic, enduring wardrobe with fashionable accents. Link in the next comment. Happy Shopping!
Moonpie* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am http://www.theviviennefiles.com/p/starting-from-scratch.html?m=1
Kyrielle* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am Thank you! I hadn’t seen this link before, and I’m looking at my wardrobe lately and frowning a bit, so…handy timing!
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 1:01 pm Oh dear…this makes me want to throw out my entire closet and start over. In a good way.
I am now a llama* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am Yay!! Congratulations! I love Ann Taylor for professional clothing and they have good sales sometimes.
PurpleMonkeyDishwasher* February 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm I’ll be honest, I find the more recent Corporette picks mostly meh. Try the Classy Cubicle for more fashion-forward looks. Also, I find in general it’s a lot easier to keep my base clothes very simple/classic (pencil skirts, sheath dresses, wool trousers, blazers) and then add style through up-to-date accessories, like a great bag, on-trend jewelry and/or scarves, and great shoes.
PurpleMonkeyDishwasher* February 20, 2015 at 2:40 pm Oh! Also! Since you’re in NYC – look for consignment and thrift shops. They’ll often have great clothes for a lot less than retail. I’ve gotten many a dress or blazer from my local thrift store, and at one point I had a deal with one of the consignment shops where she actually called me when a particular woman dropped off pants because we were the exact same (short) height and I was basically the only person who bought this woman’s hemmed pants.
PurpleMonkeyDishwasher* February 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm Edit: I don’t mean to suggest NYC alone has good consignment and thrift shops, I realize I worded that weirdly. I just meant NYC has a really extensive list of options, that’s all. :-)
kristinyc* February 20, 2015 at 6:04 pm Thanks! Just added Classy Cubicle to my feedly. (Looks like the name changed – it’s now called “Memorandum.” I’ll check out consignment shops – great idea!
Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 12:34 pm A) AWESOME! HIGH FIVES ALL AROUND!! B) NY and CO is incredible for stuff like this. You might want to branch out after a while, when you figure out your personal corporate style, but NY&Co is freakin’ amazing for going in and buying four pants, three blazers, two button ups, two blouses, two dresses, shoes, belts, and jewelry that are all interchangeable, stylish, and affordable. And then when you have more of an idea of how you want to dress professionally you can start hitting up Banana Republic or Nordstrom or Bloomingdale’s for the higher end, super fashionable, crazy stylish stuff.
Sparrow* February 20, 2015 at 12:48 pm Congrats! You may also find the blog Cap Hill Style helpful. I also follow Outfit Posts. It may be more on the casual end, but there are some posts with suits, etc.
TNTT* February 20, 2015 at 1:16 pm For NFP, I think you’ll find Cap Hill Style much more helpful than Corporette, which has gotten weird/terrible.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 1:23 pm Congrats on the new job! I have no advice, because I have enough trouble dressing myself! But enjoy your shopping!
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm Yayy!!! May I suggest The Limited- they have a new collection based on Scandal and their stuff usually goes on at least 40% off sale. Same with Loft.
kristinyc* February 20, 2015 at 6:34 pm I COMPLETELY forgot about the Limited!!! I used to shop there all the time, but they don’t have a store in NYC, so I haven’t been there in a while. They have some cute stuff online! :)
Sparrow* February 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm Also wanted to mention You Look Fab. I haven’t been on in a while, but I remember the forums being very helpful.
Otter box* February 20, 2015 at 9:26 pm Yay! Congratulations! I actually just did the exact same thing – I started my new non-profit job on Wednesday, and I spent the past two weekends hitting up sales at NY and Company, H&M, Banana Republic, Macy’s, and I think a couple others I’m forgetting. SO MUCH FUN! I’ve never had the means or a reason to so thoroughly re-vamp my wardrobe and it rocks! I still have some more things I want to get, so I might try the outlet mall here sometime soon too. I’ve also been reading the Capitol Hill Style blog, which has given me some good ideas. I wish you luck in your new job and I hope you have a great time shopping!
afiendishthingy* February 20, 2015 at 11:52 pm That’s so exciting!! I had a low-paying job at a school where I couldn’t wear any jewelry a kid could yank on and choke me or rip an earlobe off, and my clothes had to be suitable for a full range of motion and for getting dirty, but professional enough that I wouldn’t get mistaken for a middle school student (I was 29 but petite). When I got a decent paying job in a mostly business casual office I was thrilled to get a new wardrobe, although mine was more along the lines of dress pants, shoes that were not sneakers, and cute little dressy tops from JCPenney. Things you have to iron or dry clean only things intimidate me. (Unlike you I am not in a stylish city.) (I’ve also been wearing this ridiculous knit hat lately that has those long braided cords coming down from the ear flaps, if I’m describing it well, and it is not professional in the slightest but dammit it keeps my ears warm.) Congratulations on the job and happy shopping – get some nicely fitted basics and you’ll be sharp :)
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:06 am Help! My friend/coworker needs some wording advice on a situation with our manager. This stuff is usually my forte but I’m stuck on this one. Here’s the deal: my coworker is part of a 5-person team with 2 senior reps and 3 non-senior. He’s a non-senior who has been here about as long as the 2 seniors. He’s frequently tasked with all sorts of additional responsibilities – testing new system updates, redesigning procedures, serving as a representative for the team in meetings or when there’s a visitor, having new employees shadow him, etc. 99.9% of the time, anything additional falls to him instead of the actual seniors. He was even brought in on a meeting yesterday with just the manager, the two seniors and himself – so clearly he’s being treated as a respected, important member of the team, but he doesn’t get the pay grade or the title to go with it. He’s asked about it before and has been given somewhat vague answers as to how and when he can become a senior. At this point he wants to make a firm declaration that either our manager needs to promote him, or he needs to give these responsibilities to the seniors because they’re being completely underutilized while getting paid more (some tasks have even been taken off the seniors and given to him!). Any suggestions on how to go about this conversation without making it sound like an ultimatum?
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:30 am I think he may need to pick one. It’s tough to simultaneously say “I love the new responsibilities and would like to see my growth reflected” and “Stop giving me this work.” I would opt for the first, because it sounds like that’s what he really wants, and the second is likely to both fail and hurt him. I also think he needs to start looking at external possibilities, since it’s quite possible his workplace isn’t interested in changing this. Since this has been in discussion for a while, I’d push harder to say “I know we’ve talked about the future on this, but I’d like to get more specific on the timeline. I’m doing senior-level workload without senior-level title or compensation. I’d like to ask for a promotion to Whatever It Should Be and a salary bump of x% by my mid-year review–how do we make this happen, and who else should we loop in?”
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:45 am That was my first instinct – to treat this the same way he should if there weren’t any other seniors and base it solely around the work he does and his desire to be adequately compensated for it. I suspect he’ll have to end up going with the external option, honestly. I can tell our manager is nervous about a “too many chiefs, not enough Indians” situation if over half the team are senior reps. It also doesn’t help that the criteria for becoming a senior is extremely vague. It had traditionally been given to someone who had been in the position for at least a year and proven to be a peer leader among the team, but then he hired someone directly into a senior position and she has turned out to only be an adequate employee – no signs of leadership and nothing particularly great about the work she does. At any rate, thanks for the insight, as always!
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:52 am (Also just to clarify my relationship to the work here since it probably sounds weird – we work on two separate teams under the same manager, and I used to be one of the seniors on his team before I moved to this one so I know the ins and outs of the work and positions.)
The difficult art of mud-breathing* February 20, 2015 at 5:14 pm I know you don’t mean anything bad by it – I grew up using the expression myself – but I recently discovered that it’s not good to use the phrase “too many chiefs, not enough Indians” if your group has large numbers of programming resources in Asia.
ella* February 20, 2015 at 6:59 pm I don’t think it’s particularly flattering to Native Americans either. Maybe go with the more innocuous “too many cooks in the kitchen” and leave the cultural references out altogether.
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:31 am It’s going to be hard NOT to make it sounds like an ultimatum when it is, in fact, an ultimatum. Your coworker needs to tone it down and accept that there may be other things that the seniors are doing instead of these tasks, and that this is clearly the way the boss wants things to be arranged. That said, if the coworker was willing to compromise and listen, it would definitely be a good conversation to have with their boss. Talk about why certain tasks are getting assigned to them, and if it’s possible to distribute them more evenly, and what to do when they get overwhelmed by tasks that the seniors could help with but aren’t for whatever reason. They can express concerns about their personal workload, but no one else’s workload should be included in the conversation, because it’s not relevant. Also, if possible, they should separate out the issue of becoming a senior from this conversation. Otherwise it runs the risk of coming off as a whiny, “but I don’t wanna do X, I wanna be a senior!” kind of complaint instead.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:39 am Part of the problem with this approach is that the workload isn’t unmanageable. That’s probably part of why he always gets selected – regardless of the amount of work, he always finds a fast and efficient way to get it all done in the span of 40 hours per week. The only source of frustration with being assigned all the additional work is the misallocation to a junior rep when the seniors are available (and they are – everyone’s workload is extremely visible due to the system we use, there’s no question that they have availability to handle additional tasks).
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am Then perhaps it would be worth discussing the nature of the tasks, rather than the number of them. Like… they’re happy to help out, but they feel uncomfortable with managing senior-level tasks as a junior-level employee. Then propose some kind of solution that the management might agree to (since it sounds like they are dragging their feet on the title bump). I’m not sure what the solution would be offhand (small raise? opportunities for more/different training related to these tasks? more chance to collaborate on some important/interesting project?), since that will probably depend a lot on what your office does, exactly.
Dwight K Schrute* February 20, 2015 at 3:02 pm I am in a similar situation. I have 4 “senior” coworkers and I’m the only junior. The difference in titles is purely driven by authority to make decisions. Once I realized I make the same decisions and do the same amount of work (and then some), I made a list for my manager to note all the similarities. I used that list to suggest a title change and promotion. At the time, the suggestion was well received, but no changes could be made until everyone’s annual reviews. When I found out about the extended time period for a change to occur, I (politely) said I was open to taking on various tasks, but that they needed to be limited to fit within my current junior authority until the promotion was made. My manager honestly didn’t realize I had taken on so much extra work and was not upset by the various conversations. Also, this lead to discussions about the efficiency and processes of the department as a whole and what changes needed to be made. My story will have a happy ending soon, but I was prepared to look elsewhere if my request wasn’t met. I’d advise the same for your coworker. If the roles can’t be changed or there’s no firm timeline in place for a change, they need to start looking.
Which would you rather see?* February 20, 2015 at 11:06 am I am looking to move on from my current position but have only been there for about 1.5 years. I originally took the position, which was a step-back from previous positions, because I had some health issues that I needed to deal with and additional stress was verboten. I am happy to say that the health issues have been resolved and I’m looking to get back into my previous career path. During the time I’ve worked for current company they were taken over by a large international holding company which includes their biggest competitor. So my question is, if you were hiring, which reason for the short tenure would you rather see in a cover letter – looking to move on because of now-resolved health issues or because of the uncertainty that a purchase raises for existing staff?
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:31 am My gut reaction is that I don’t want to see your reasons for leaving in a cover letter, period. That’s an interview question to me. I’ll be interested to hear what other people think.
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:32 am I agree. I’d prefer to see information about why you’re excited for this job in your cover letter, not information about why you’re excited to leave your last one.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm Nthing don’t mention it in cover letter–just point out the great opportunities you see in the job listing. As for the interview…I think you’re never supposed to mention health issues unless you absolutely have to.
Which would you rather see?* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am But don’t I need to address 2 things – 1) going backward in positions; and 2) wanting to leave a place so quickly? Both of those seem like red flags to me.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm If they ask you, yes, address it. But it is not something to offer in a cover letter.
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 12:38 pm Agreed. Also, a year and a half is really not *that* short of a window, and it may be obvious from your resume that your current position is a step backward, which may make “and I’m looking to get into a role more in line with my previous career track” kind of a given. If you are asked, in an interview, why you took the step-backwards role, then you can explain you needed a job that would allow you to deal with a now happily resolved health issue.
Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 12:40 pm Honestly I think it’s all about how you present yourself. To you, you know that it was going backwards on a career path, but the hiring manager is only going to know that if you tell them. Present the awesome things you did at every job on your resume in such a way that it plays up your strengths independent of your job titles. Also it kind of sounds like you’re ashamed of the position you’re in currently, when there’s no need to be! It’s what you needed when you needed it, and now you’re ready to move on. If your work history is otherwise stellar, I really don’t think that anyone’s going to bat an eye at you looking after 8 months- sometimes positions don’t work out, or aren’t a good fit, or whatever, and people need to leave. People pick up on your energy when you talk about things. So if you talk about your current position as a “crappy step backwards” and are really apologetic about looking after only 8 months, then they’re going to pick up on that and it’s going to reflect badly on you as a candidate. However, if you are really positive about what you liked about your current position and the accomplishments that you had, and if you keep your tone positive about jobs you are applying to and act enthusiastic, I seriously doubt anyone’s going to bat an eye about the timeline. And if they do (during an interview, probably), just say you are ready for more responsibility and commitment to a job after taking your current job due to health reasons or whatever.
RandomName* February 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm I understand why you feel like you need to put this information in a cover letter. At the last company I worked for, after having worked there only 8 months, I received notice that they were restructuring and I would have to leave my job 6 months later when the transition period was over. I felt like I needed to address that somewhere in either my resume or cover letter because I had only been at the position prior to that for 1 year and I didn’t want to look like a job hopper. I ended up putting an asterisk on my resume next to the dates for that position with a small note right below it saying, “Position being relocated due to restructuring.” I think some people would not find that to be appropriate and think I should have waited for an interview to address why I was seeking other employment, but I was worried I wouldn’t even get to the interview stage to explain why I was looking to leave after only 8 months. I don’t think it hurt me because I was called back for interviews with most of the companies I applied to (I used tailored resumes and cover letters for each position like this site suggests). But who knows, maybe I still would have gotten the interviews anyway. It’s tough to say.
TotesMaGoats* February 20, 2015 at 11:07 am This is a straight up brag about my sister. She is a hematology/oncology pediatric nurse. Finished her MS last summer and wants to move onto being a nurse educator. With help from me on her resume and cover letter, because she hadn’t had to do one in 10 years, and some interview quizzing and fashion help. She didn’t just nail the first interview but got a call back the same day for a second interview. And the salary bump is almost $25k more than she makes now! Way to go little sis. But really the thanks goes to AAM and the community here for giving me such valuable information to share with her to help prepare.
Aunt Vixen* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am Hooray! That’s great that you were able to help her out, and great news for her–and well deserved, because pediatric oncology nurses are angels walking the earth in human form. <3
TotesMaGoats* February 20, 2015 at 2:06 pm Yes, she is absolutely an angel and she loves her kids so much. I know she’ll miss being on the floor but she wants to move into being a clinical nurse educator.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm Great story! Good for you for being a good sister and yeah for her for going for it!
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm Hooray!! I agree with Aunt Vixen. Halos. They gotta have halos.
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am A job has been posted that I think is both a great opportunity for me AND maybe I shouldn’t even bother to apply because I want to avoid burning bridges with this employer. Reasons to stay away: it’s a senior title, definitely a stretch for me but exactly the direction I want to stretch in, and it’s also in the location I want to live so I could likely stay a long time. My current employers use a not-so-great title for my line of work which will make me sound more junior than I am, making it even less plausible, even though I believe I can make a case for meeting their requirements (while understanding that others could make better case or have a longer history of meeting the requirements). It’s a major employer in my desired location and I don’t want to look desperate by applying for something that seems unrealistic. It was posted a week ago and not advertised in any of the usual places, which to me suggests “internal candidate in mind.” Worst of all, I have a prior bad experience with this employer including people certain to be involved in this hire. I applied there 2.5 years ago, did a phone interview and never heard back. A couple weeks later, I was offered my current job in my less desirable location. There was no HR contact ever involved, so I emailed the main interviewer, thinking that having another offer with a deadline was a reasonable reason to check in. I didn’t hear back for several days. Not knowing about this blog at that time, and in a panic about the deadline, I placed a phone call to one of the other interviewers, who didn’t know anything. I accepted *that* as a “no,” took my current job, and never heard back from them–a year later they hired someone with very different qualifications, so I think they had no idea what they wanted. I thought they were being rude and I’m pretty sure they thought I was crazy because a contact there later said “the follow-up call at XYZ is not necessary” (in what I perceived as a snarky tone at the time although I think it was kindly meant and she was probably struggling to warn me gracefully). So I’m afraid that applying for a job there will just make them think “oh, it’s crazy old Anon again, she’ll apply for anything.” *Obviously* if I did apply, I’d put in my application and never ever call or email them again no matter how much they blew me off, but should I not even *try* if it doesn’t seem like a perfect and obvious match? Of course, being so afraid of irritating them that I never apply for anything also gets me nowhere.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am I think you’re overthinking the hell out of this. I don’t think you’re going to hurt yourself by applying, and I don’t think the signs guarantee an internal candidate. I don’t think two contacts, with time in between, when there was silence after an interview has pegged you as a major crazy in the company; I think it’s likelier they don’t actually remember you. And even if everything you suspect is true, I don’t see it as hurting any future endeavors to apply. You don’t get “liking you better now” credits from a company for skipping application opportunities, so waiting this round out wouldn’t get you anything.
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 12:24 pm Plus, worst case is you apply and they don’t respond. Then, in a couple of years when you might apply for something else, your last interaction with them was totally professional.
Kyrielle* February 20, 2015 at 12:36 pm Yep. IF your history with them marks you as weird or crazy to them and they remember you (which IMO shouldn’t be the case based on what you’ve said here), then they’ll reject your application. If that doesn’t happen, but they don’t think you meet the requirements, then they’ll reject your application. What have you lost in that case? The time spent applying – so what? For the scenario where they phone screen and/or interview you, I’d be prepared with a response if these issues come up. I wouldn’t tackle the “weird” earlier application at all unless they bring it up; I would, in your shoes, sell my relevant skills, of course. But you’ve very little to lose and potentially a good job to gain, it sounds like.
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 7:16 pm Thank you! And yes, you’re right… I could tell I was overthinking it, but then I couldn’t tell whether it was in the direction of “sheesh, what do you have to lose” or “why would you apply somewhere that doesn’t like you?” The responses saying they might not even remember are especially helpful because, as you can tell, I was mortified by the whole thing. I’m still concerned that I am, or will come off as, too inexperienced for the position, but that’s garden-variety imposter syndrome talking, I think. Plus I sometimes hear about someone getting a real solid promotion and think “Yeah! Go {person}!” and eventually that could be me, right? I’ll work on an application and if I can put something together that doesn’t feel like a house of cards, I’ll send it in. Really appreciate it!
I am now a llama* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm I think you should apply! It sounds like it’s been over a year and at this point, they may not even remember (or be there anymore). One email and one phone call follow up when you have a pending job offer doesn’t seem very “wow, she is NUTS” to me. Good luck!!
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 8:37 pm Worst case scenario- if they tell you that you are nuts for applying, you will not die from that. However, if you do not apply you will wonder what would have happened for a very long time.
MostCommonLastName* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am I’m nearing the end of my six month contract and already have one interview booked two weeks from now. My issue is how to speak about one of my projects in the upcoming interview and any future ones. I was involved in the planning and execution of a one day festival that was outdoors. In February. It ended up being the coldest day of the year at -40C and unsurprisingly, we ended up having to cancel. I’d still like to talk about the work I did with the festival, I worked for the last five months on it, but I’m not sure how/if I should since I can’t speak about attendance since it was nonexistent. I think most interviewers would understand that you can’t control the weather, but I worry about what they’ll think when I say I had to cancel everything. Any advice would be great!
Apple22over7* February 20, 2015 at 11:12 am Definitely speak of your experience in arranging the festival, and explain that unfortuantely it had to be cancelled because of extreme weather. I would then speak to what you did to limit the impact of the cancellation – did you negotiate (partial) refunds for equipment/services you’d paid for? Did you communicate with ticketholders/exhibitors about the cancellation and resolve any problems there may have been from them? I’m sure you would have some work to do and whilst attendance numbers can’t be counted, you certainly can explain what you did to limit the impact and make it as successful a cancellation as possible.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 12:21 pm Sometimes we learn the most when plans go awry. Talk about how you handled the decision to cancel…how it was communicated, did you re-schedule or what alternate plans did you consider before you cancelled? How did you contact the suppliers/vendors/partners, did this cost money to cancel, if so how will you re-coop?
Apple22over7* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am How much should I trust recruiter’s judgement? I’m working with a recruiter to find a new job at the moment, and she’s sending me details of jobs which look really cool on paper, but going through the essential skills & requirements I have maybe 70% of the required skills. These are also jobs with salaries of 20% or more than I’m currently earning. On the one hand I think it’s great that someone thinks I’d be good for these roles, but another part of me is worried that the recruiter is putting me forward for jobs which are too much of a leap for my actual skills. I have got an interview through her next week so maybe she’s not aiming too high for me.. but in my own independent job hunt, I’m looking at applying for jobs which are at a lower level than the ones I’m being put forward for with the recruiter. Should I trust that the recruiter knows what she’s doing, and maybe even start looking at the slightly higher level roles in my own searches? (Also, mini-rant – why can’t companies specify what Excel skills they want rather than just listing “advanced” or “intermediate”? I applied for one job which needed advanced excel skills, and when I got to an interview I was told the job involved nothing moer than creating basic graphs. Another job asked for intermediate skills, but the job required extensive use of pivot tables and indepth knowledge of VBA macros. Grr. Make up your minds!!)
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 1:34 pm Well, I suppose you could just ask her. Sometimes companies will put all the skills they can think of and if their best candidates have at least most of them, they come out ahead. There isn’t anyone who will rock at every single thing. She may think you have an excellent shot at these, especially if she’s worked with these companies before. But I’d want to talk to her about her reasons for that, before making up my mind one way or the other.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 1:57 pm Hmm I would trust her as long as you’ve conveyed the right information to her. 70% of the required skills is still a good match-up. Maybe something you did in the past is especially desirable so it’s giving you a leg up. I would open yourself up to independently looking at job’s more on the recruiters level. 70% isn’t a huge reach and no one would think you’re out of line for applying. On your rant about excel skills, I’m not sure what industry you’re in but I’d say it depends on the position and most of it is based on who made the job description. Excel is not used widely in our office and I think most people would think that graphs are advanced. We have forms we create in Excel that require really basic math skills like adding up columns. When I first went in to update them, I noticed none of them had formulas or functions. Someone had manually added up numbers!! So yeah for some people, advanced excel skills are basic functions
voluptuousfire* February 20, 2015 at 3:45 pm (Also, mini-rant – why can’t companies specify what Excel skills they want rather than just listing “advanced” or “intermediate”? I applied for one job which needed advanced excel skills, and when I got to an interview I was told the job involved nothing moer than creating basic graphs. Another job asked for intermediate skills, but the job required extensive use of pivot tables and indepth knowledge of VBA macros. Grr. Make up your minds!!) I’ve ranted about this quite a bit myself. Once I applied for a job that required “working knowledge of Excel.” Great! Turns out it meant extensive knowledge of pivot tables and how to clean data and such. That’s a difference of opinion the size of the Grand Canyon. Needless to say I’ve seen this job posted for months and it never seems to have been filled. I also see a lot of ads that ask for candidates to be “proficient” in a software. Again, totally subjective. When they’re not specific enough about experience with a software, it really does waste both their and the candidate’s time, especially if it’s a large part of the role. Never did get that sort of thing. The other week, I saw a job ad that explained what they required in experience for MS Office. I saved it, because it was so brilliant: Strong Microsoft Office Suite skills – example Word – inserting headers / footers, page breaks, page numbers and tables and/or adjusting table columns Excel – using SUM function, setting borders, setting column width, inserting charts, using text wrap, sorting, setting headers and footers and/or print scaling PowerPoint – applying a theme, formatting character spacing, inserting a picture, changing slide layout and theme colors, adding transitions, customizing slide numbers, changing chart style and/or formatting font I wasn’t qualified for the role but wanted to write the company a thank you note for being so diligent with their job descriptions.
Sherm* February 20, 2015 at 3:56 pm As Elizabeth West said, sometimes employers list a million things that they would like, but they won’t think that an applicant who can’t meet every qualification is unsuitable for the job. I’ve certainly run into bad recruiters, butthey suggested positions in which I wasn’t 20% qualified. 70% sounds reasonable to me, as long as something in the other 30% isn’t a Big Deal (like “must have a medical degree and a lengthy publication record”). The fact that you got an interview is a good sign. But even if you have the world’s best recruiter, continue searching for jobs independently, too.
MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)* February 20, 2015 at 5:30 pm Also, mini-rant – why can’t companies specify what Excel skills they want rather than just listing “advanced” or “intermediate”? Ha — you have just reminded me of the job ad I saw recently which said “We require highly advanced Excel skills, including pivot tables and VLOOKUP”. Sigh. Apparently I could have been listing ‘highly advanced Excel skills’ on my resume all this time :P
PX* February 21, 2015 at 9:12 am Late I know but please read this! Applying for jobs when you meet 70% of the requirements is plenty :D http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/
Shell* February 20, 2015 at 11:08 am Earlier this week, my new boss asked me to see if I can find some documents that my predecessor might’ve worked on. I searched the computer and didn’t find anything, so I started going through the piles of paper on my desk that I inherited from my predecessor. I didn’t find what I was looking for, but I did find my predecessor’s employment contract and his performance review. Why he left that lying around on top of the desk is beyond me. Since that is not something I should be privy too, I walked the documents over to my boss and told her that this shouldn’t be on my desk. And I know I did the right thing in doing that. …but damn, I am really, really curious as to what my predecessor’s salary was. My mom pointed out that I could’ve read the documents and then returned them, which I said the point was that this is not information I should be privy to. Mom’s rather disheartening reply was that my boss probably assumed I read them before I returned them, adding that if she was in my boss’s place, that’s exactly what she would assume. Damned if I do and damned if I don’t! Mom’s reply is making me wish I did read it in the first place xP (Though…no. I just think of Alison’s disapproving face and I’m glad I didn’t read it. But I am so, so curious…) I know in the end, it’s more useful to look at market rates and figure out if I’m in line with that for my given experience/job/duties. But if I knew the previous person’s pay…well, if it was higher, than I have an idea of what to aim for/maybe get an idea of how much I can get in terms of raise/etc. Knowledge is power, right? :P (And if it was lower, then I can be happy for a bit.)
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:19 am You are a better person than I am, because I definitely would have looked at the salary.
CollegeAdmin* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am Me too. Actually, confession: My manager saved her paystub in our shared folder and I totally looked at it. I then moved it and her other personal documents (credit report, lease agreement, etc.) into a folder called “Manager’s Personal” and told her all that stuff was there. She then didn’t move the documents for another 3 months, despite knowing that I had access.
AvonLady Barksdale* February 20, 2015 at 12:01 pm Same. Totally nosy here. The key to being nosy is to keep all that info to yourself– it’s like Googling your blind date but pretending you know nothing about him.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 11:49 am You did the right thing. There would have been no benefit to you seeing his salary. As Allison has said many times here, salaries are independently negotiated. Just because one person gets more money than you do even if you perform the same job, doesn’t mean that you are entitled to that salary. Also, that person’s salary may have been their ending salary which may have been based upon years working with the company.
AndersonDarling* February 20, 2015 at 11:53 am Ignorance is bliss. I think you did the right thing. No matter what the salary was, or what the notes said, it likely would have made you upset. When you get a peek of information, it is so easy to misinterpret it because you don’t have the whole picture. I hope your boss gives you kudos for returning the documents!
Brett* February 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm The performance review might have been way more interesting and useful than the salary. When I took this job… I received my predecessor’s workstation. He left a pros/cons list in his “My Documents” folder titled something like “Should I quit my job”. At the time he wrote the document, he had been with this organization exactly as long as I have now been here. Now I know that the “cons” half of his list was dead-on (I did actually get in touch with him to let him know that was left behind, and he told me I should read it).
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 1:36 pm Remember though that their ending salary might have been higher if your predecessor were in the job for a while. I can’t blame you for being curious, however; I would have felt the same way!
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 8:44 pm Please let yourself up for air. You’ve got it set up so you will not win either way. FWIW, I agree with the others, you did the right thing. I have gone in both directions with similar situations. I found that I am actually happier not knowing. Even if you found out that she made less than you do- you could still find something to chew on. Like maybe she worked there x years and all her raises added up to less than what you make starting out. What does that bode for you in years to come? grrr. NO, stay out of this stuff. The work day is hard enough.
Clever Name* February 20, 2015 at 10:03 pm I once came across a disciplinary action letter for a coworker when I was searching through a former employees files for records pertinent to my job. I have no idea why former employee had that document, but I read the hell out of it. (And never mentioned a word of it to a soul)
Former Diet Coke Addict* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am My boss is having the Labour Board come for an investigation next week. This week he’s been telling us that he may or may not close the place for a week in March. Why? “To cut payroll over spring break when it’s always dead.” The flaw in this plan is that we work over an entire country, none of which has break at the same time, and we are always incredibly busy EVERY week in March! My boss always goes to Cuba that week–he’s never been here and therefore seems to believe that while the former and following weeks are busy as hell, that one week is dead because he personally spends it in Cuba. Not to mention we would like to know beforehand if he’s going to randomly close for a week! It’s so very difficult to retain any sort of enthusiasm or energy for work when every week we have some kind of ridiculous curveball thrown our way!
Former Diet Coke Addict* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am I have an interview next week that I’m fairly cautious about, since the interviewer gas already changed the job description from the initial listing (from full time to part time)–but it won’t hurt me to go and see what the deal is there. If nothing else I’d like the practice interviewing!
Ali* February 20, 2015 at 11:09 am So I had a phone interview yesterday and I have mixed feelings about how it went. Overall, I feel very positive about it and it was a pleasant surprise to hear from the company. I’d applied there in December, and the recruiter didn’t schedule my phone interview until Tuesday. I seemed to have a good rapport with the woman yesterday and I tried to ask engaging questions and show that I’d done my homework. (It was a social media job, so I mentioned looking at their Instagram and the things they do, for example.) However, as seems to be par for the course with some of my interviews, she said she’s concerned that I don’t have the experience they’re looking for but that she’ll talk with the hiring manager to see how big of a deal it is before bringing me in from out of town. I’m kind of upset that this “you don’t have experience” thing keeps cropping up when the companies are the ones calling me for interviews when they know what is and isn’t on my resume. But, this company is based in NYC and is a big brand name to boot, so I also feel confident knowing my resume was good enough to solicit an interview from out of my hometown. And it came just as I was thinking no one in NYC would ever call me. So I guess that’s good? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. This is the second interview I’ve had since the start of the new year, so I have some faith that my resume/cover letter aren’t all that bad.
Kyrielle* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm Sounds like your cover letter/resume are excellent, if the lack of experience is a concern but they’re still calling you – there was enough promising about your materials to make them want to talk to you, and enough promising about your phone interview that while they’re being honest that the experience might be an issue, they’re still considering moving forward – subject to the hiring manager’s input. Fingers crossed, but at least you know you’re doing well on how you present yourself, written and verbal. :)
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 11:10 am So…I’m 36.5 weeks pregnant, and my boss keeps making comments about how happy she is there’s another chubby person in the office, and I no longer look like I’m using the hallway as a runway to show people how skinny I am. Like…multiple times a day. I’m a pretty laid back person, but this is entering wtf territory for me. I can usually just shrug it off, but sometimes you just need to vent, you know?
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:18 am That’s really inappropriate. I don’t know what you could do about it, but yeah, not okay.
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:23 am Replying to myself because I decided not to say it the first time, but I’m going to say it. Comments about your body would be unacceptable from anybody else. This woman’s no better than a strange man bothering you on the street.
Swedish Tekanna* February 20, 2015 at 11:29 am Also sounds like the boss has some vanity or self-confidence issues.
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am Yep. As does almost anyone who harasses somebody about their body.
Former Diet Coke Addict* February 20, 2015 at 11:19 am That is utterly bizarre and off putting. If it were me, I would probably just mentally chalk it up to weirdness and let it go since you’ll be on mat leave fairly soon–but if it gets too much for you, I think you’d be within your rights to say “Boss, would you mind not remarking on my size, please?” because wow.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:27 am The part that gets me though is that apparently the manager has been silently judging her when she was thinner. That’s just as inappropriate.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am I almost think that’s worse…I’d at least want to know if someone was judging me for something really weird and inappropriate so I could put a stop to it. Imagine if she’d never gotten pregnant and the manager had just perpetually thought of her as a show off without ever telling her.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 12:06 pm Well, yes. But people are going to judge. You can’t really concern yourself with what people think. You can DEFINITELY concern yourself with what they say though.
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am There’s something very weight-centric about my particular office. Most people do weight watchers together and multiple people have commented about what I’m eating when I wasn’t pregnant. Note: it’s not a pound of m&ms everyday. Mostly sandwiches. E.g. “I wish I could eat whatever I want and not gain weight.” Uh, yeah…me too.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 1:31 pm Oh lord, I’ve gotten this before. It’s especially weird because I’m not actually very thin or hot or anything, I’m not the Cerie to their Liz Lemon or whatever. It is 100% about them and projecting their own feelings about their own bodies onto people around them.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:27 am Wow. That is wildly inappropriate. I would say something along the lines of “I’d appreciate if you would stop making comments about my weight, both current and past. If there’s a problem with the way I carry myself that affects my perception as an employee and colleague, please let me know so it can be addressed, but otherwise I’d prefer to focus on my work rather than my appearance.”
LizB* February 20, 2015 at 11:29 am Whoa, that is super wtf and inappropriate. I don’t know how to address it exactly — if you had a good relationship with your boss, you could mention that you prefer not to have people make comments about your body (which should be common sense)… but if she’s making these comments in the first place, she’s clearly not a reasonable person.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:32 am You’d be 100% in the right saying something short and direct like “I’m really uncomfortable with you commenting about my size – please stop!” You can use “please” because she’s your boss. She has issues.
MJH* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am Maybe a puzzled and concerned, “Is that how I come across when I’m not pregnant?” like you are really sad and hurt? Because that is how I would feel if someone said that to me. I mean, if you feel like dealing with it. (Also, I am 38.5 weeks pregnant, so, my sympathies.)
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am Is she heavy? Probably completely insecure. Those kind of comments always come from insecurity. People that are fine with themselves are usually fine with others in this regard. Will be curious to how she reacts after your baby is born. Congrats, btw!
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 am And holy crap I better qualify this by saying that I don’t believe all heavy people {raising my hand here} are insecure and jealous of others. Just when there’s this kind of vitriol coming from someone I would argue there’s insecurity at the root of it.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:49 am I totally got that sense too – sounds like projection of her own body issues more than anything the OP is doing.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 11:37 am Are you not tempted to start treating the hallway as a runway and doing a spin every time you get to the end?
Traveller* February 20, 2015 at 2:23 pm Take your jacket off half way, look back over your shoulder and stick your hip out before going back the other way!
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 11:39 am Um, this is weird and rude. I don’t have any advice but that would hurt my feelings too :(
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 11:43 am I guess I should mention that we have always had a ‘jokey’ relationship, and I suspect that the majority of this comes from that place…it doesn’t make it ok, but it doesn’t make me feel as bad about it. Part of it is just trying to be funny and failing miserably.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am Oof. I think guiding her away from these jokes would be a kindness to her as well as a seriously good thing for you. “Please don’t make comments about my body–it makes me really uncomfortable” is another script possibility.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am I think it’s fine to say in that case “I know we normally have a friendly, joking relationship, but this is one area that’s more sensitive and I’d prefer not to joke about it.”
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 2:10 pm I’d be soooo tempted to come back with something like, “Good thing I’m only temporarily fat!”
Mephyle* February 20, 2015 at 9:13 pm I fear that remarks like “Please don’t comment on my body, it makes me uncomfortable” are not going to sit well with her. Her reaction (interior) will likely be “Oh, you’re uncomfortable? Well I’m uncomfortable being heavy. All the time. And it’s not going to change in a few weeks, unlike you. So you’re going to hear about it.”
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm Tell her it would be a moot point if she did something to lose they weight besides talk about it, and tell her not to worry, she will once again be the only office “chubby.” Woops, my NY attitude has slipped out again..
LizNYC* February 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm Your best response might be to just say “Wow,” per Carolyn Hax, and see what she does. These comments are totally inappropriate.
Nerd Girl* February 20, 2015 at 5:20 pm I would be tempted to say something along the lines of “well, I am making a human being with my body and in 3.5 weeks the office will have lost it’s other chubby person. Make sure this runway is clear so when I come back from Maternity leave I can strut my stuff.” Of course, I wouldn’t actually say it but I’d bust my butt to lose that baby weight and I WOULD strut down that hallway my first day back. :)
Flip Side* February 21, 2015 at 1:22 am I can relate somewhat to this… I’ve lost 60 pounds in the last year through eating less & moving more. Whenever I run into a co-worker, I get a “You look GREAT!” comment. Wtf? Did I look terrible before?! I don’t know which is worse, that or the side eye glances at me.
Vanelope Von Schweetz* February 22, 2015 at 1:11 am I totally get it. When I was pregnant, I had a co-worker say to me that I looked huge at 25 weeks and I looked like I was having twins. I was SO mad.
Calla* February 20, 2015 at 11:11 am Since I’ve been house-ridden post surgery I’ve been doing things to entertain myself like reading the glassdoor reviews, including my current company. And within the last 1-2 months, HR’s responses on the site to (validly) dissatisfied employees have included blatant lies that I and anyone currently at the company would know. Like factually, statistically wrong, not just opinion or putting a spin. So when people tell you to take glassdoor with a grain of salt, definitely do it for both sides!
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 2:00 pm Glassdoor has become my enemy I can never win with. If I see too many positive reviews, I think something is up. I looked up a staffing company on there and they had terrible reviews. I clicked on a very similar company and it sounded cult like with the way people described the work. Felt like the company made their employees go in and write how amazing they were!
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 2:16 pm Mine had one bad review that was obviously people upset with a particular manager/office culture and the rest were quite positive. It made me wonder, but it actually is a really good company to work for, which verified what I’ve heard through the grapevine.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 11:12 am I’m hoping the ad problems of the last 1-2 weeks may have been largely fixed as of this morning. However, if you start seeing ad problems again, please (a) clear your cache and (b) if you’re still seeing them after that, email me (alison @ askamanager.org) with details. Thank you!
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:24 am I haven’t had any problems with ads in the past few days. Thank you for paying attention to this.
CAA* February 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm I am still seeing an occasional problem that I haven’t pinned down. The way I read AAM and other blogs is to start from Feedly and use my middle mouse button to open the posts I want to read in a new tab. I then go from tab to tab, reading each item. I’m now getting a Flash plugin error on the AAM pages from time to time. My whole browser slows to a crawl and then I get the popup asking if I want to stop the script. I can’t tell if there’s a specific ad that’s got bad Flash code, or if it just doesn’t like to run when it’s not the tab with focus. Disqus scripts also cause a lot of problems on other blogs when they’re loading on background tabs, so it could be something like that. If I’m able to pin it down to a specific ad, I’ll email you.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 1:47 pm I think it’s probably not related to Feedly but is related to an ad code here. Has it happened since this morning? Have you cleared your cache?
CAA* February 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm I agree, it’s not a Feedly issue, it’s coming from a background tab, which would not be Feedly. Yes, I’ve cleared my browser’s cache and Flash’s cache. Also verified that both computers that have experienced the problem have the latest Flash plug-in and latest version of Firefox. I did see the problem earlier today, but at that time I had tabs other than AAM also open in the background, so I can’t conclude that today’s issue was related to an AAM ad; though I am certain that yesterday’s occurrence was.
charlotte* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am Hi all, Any ideas on giving presents to bosses? I’m one year into my job and my boss’ birthday is around the corner. Any suggestion? Nothing fancy and expensive. Maybe the price of a Starbucks drink. What do you all think? Is this appropriate? Any other ideas??
Calla* February 20, 2015 at 11:29 am I have never given a real gift to my boss, and I think that’s the general advice. However, I don’t think recognition (i.e. a card) or a small treat are out of line. By small treat I mean get her that Starbucks drink if you know her favorite, a bag of Lindt truffles if you know she likes chocolate, etc. If you can do something to make her day easier (i.e. as an admin, if she plans on working, I’d still make the day light on meetings), then do that.
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 11:30 am I wouldn’t. Gifts usually flow downward in an office environment, from bosses to junior staff. If you really feel you want to mark the occasion, maybe give your boss a nice card.
RandomName* February 20, 2015 at 12:18 pm I wouldn’t give a gift to your boss at all. You could circulate a card that you and his/her other direct reports sign with nice messages in them or treat you’ve baked at home. My direct report gave me a Christmas gift this year and I thanked him for it and told him I appreciated his thinking of me, but that it wasn’t necessary, his hard work is enough, and that office etiquette dictates that gifts should flow downward.
Darth Admin* February 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm Don’t. I’d be really uncomfortable if my reports got me a present for my birthday. It was weird enough when someone brought in a cake. Very nice – don’t get me wrong – but I don’t want people to feel like they have to do that. Far better would be to simply wish her a happy birthday and maybe tell her something you like about working with her.
Hlyssande* February 20, 2015 at 1:28 pm We did give our supervisor and manager gifts for the holidays this year. I was a little uncomfortable with it, but they were both really happy and we combined it with bringing in snacks and drinks for just our team. Made for a nice thing the Friday before the holidays.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 2:01 pm I wouldn’t give one. A card is nice and fine enough. Maybe make a baked item if you really wish to do something?
Hearts On Fire* February 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm I think a nice card and/or some homemade treats (i.e. cupcakes, cookies, etc.) is fine. Please don’t do what some of my former co-workers did – buy their boss a diamond bracelet, an expensive lunch, and a $100 birthday cake. Wow.
charlotte* February 20, 2015 at 7:51 pm Hi all, II was thinking something more like a Starbucks coffee, not really some expensive stuff. Would that still work? How would getting a cup of coffee differ from something I baked myself (for those who suggested bakes) because baking seems to require more effort than a cup of coffee. Thanks for all your inputs!
EmilyG* February 21, 2015 at 12:37 am From my POV the baking would be less sensitive because it could be with an air of “I just love to bake so I brought something in!” (although of course sometimes people get pressganged into baking…) and also it could be something the whole office could share in honor of someone’s bday instead of a gift to just that person, which seems more low key to me. But I agree with the people saying to just get a card or say something to acknowledge it. I try to make sure no one knows my birthday. If someone gave me a gift I’d start wondering “Do I have to keep track of everyone’s birthdays on the team and acknowledge them or else look like a jerk?” :/
Margaret Lea* February 20, 2015 at 11:13 am I manage a call center. In one of my year-end reports, I suggested getting rid of a specific calling shift and transitioning the callers to other shifts. Yesterday, I had a meeting in the head office and they love my idea but I have to implement it now. They want the shift gone by next week. As for transitioning the callers, I’m supposed to transition the best and fire all of the worst. Basically, I have to fire about 20% of my callers. I haven’t gotten any guidance from upper management on how to do this and I feel like this is my fault because of my suggestions in the year-end report. (Except my original plan didn’t include firing anyone because there is room for current shifts to absorb the other one. How do I fire all of these people? Is it fair to say I don’t agree with this decision (because I don’t) or do I just let them think it was all my idea (because it kind of was)? This is the first time I’ve ever had to fire anyone and I’ve only been in this job for 8 months.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:36 am I wouldn’t tell them you don’t agree with it. Put yourself on the other side, imagine being fired by someone who is saying they don’t agree with firing you. I can’t exactly put it into words but that would piss me off. And I’m so sorry you have to do this, this majorly sucks.
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 11:46 am Even though they’ve asked you to terminate your lowest performers this sounds more like a layoff to me. The people are being let go because they’re cutting staff, not because Jane and Joe and Bob were so bad that they needed to be fired. I’ve never let any go, but it seems to me the conversation is different in a layoff scenario.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 11:58 am Are they letting you give severance pay to the employees being let go? That would certainly ease the tensions. Also, I agree with Natalie below that it sounds like a layoff, not firings, so even if the person isn’t great, if you are getting rid of their shift……you can’t really tell them during the firing “it’s just not working out,” because that ultimately isn’t why your firing them.
AnonAcademic* February 20, 2015 at 12:03 pm My husband has been on both ends of layoffs like this. He says that when it was clearly for organizational/financial reasons it was easier to take. So I would explain to them that the business is reorganizing, and you are very sad to say that means that you’ll have to let them go. You tell them their position is being eliminated. You also need to clarify if this is a layoff or firing with the higher ups because it could affect their ability to collect unemployment. If you can reassure the employees you let go that they will qualify for unemployment that helps. If you can offer any amount of severance (even just a week or two of pay) that will also help.
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm Actually, in most states they’ll be eligible for unemployment even if they’re officially “fired”. You usually have to be fired for something exceptionally bad, not just being a mediocre employee, to no longer be eligible. However, if you tell them they’re being fired, rather than laid off, a lot of them probably won’t bother applying for unemployment because this misconception is so widespread. To me, that is a strong argument for telling these employees it’s a layoff.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm 1. This is a layoff, not a firing. (Their positions are being eliminated; they’re not being fired for performance.) Make sure you use the correct terminology with them. 2. Find out ahead of time if your company will offer severance. 3. Ask your management for guidance on how to handle this. Explicitly say, “I’ve never done this before and want to make sure it goes as smoothly as possible and the company is protected.” 4. Do not say you disagree with it. You’re representing the company here, not yourself.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 1:21 pm Well in essence they are being fired for performance if there is room for them elsewhere. It’s just a convenient time to do it.
some1* February 20, 2015 at 2:02 pm Yes and no. They are RIFing due to a restructuring of the shifts – and they choosing performance as the metric for who will be laid off (instead of seniority or salary or something else). They would not be letting these people go if the restructure wasn’t happening.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 2:37 pm Its not much different than an employer firing you for performance but agreeing to list it as a lay off for your benefit.
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm There’s nothing to suggest these people would be fired for performance if the OP didn’t have to cut her staff. Being “the worst” among a group doesn’t mean that one isn’t meeting expectations – if you’re ranking people, someone’s gotta be last.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 3:23 pm Sure there is. If there’s room for them and they still don’t want them that’s a strong sign they’re not meeting expectations.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 4:31 pm That doesn’t sound like an accurate reading of the situation to me – it sounds like the OP’s plan made room for them but the higher ups decided not to. If the department is permanently shrinking in size, that’s a layoff, not a firing. This is no different than any other downsizing or reorganization where you have to fire X% of people and the easiest way to do it is by performance.
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 2:16 pm Are those positions going to be re-filled with better performers? People use layoffs to get rid of poor performers all the time. It doesn’t mean they weren’t laid off.
Margaret Lea* February 20, 2015 at 3:59 pm I honestly don’t know. Probably not because there isn’t room for as many people without this shift.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 1:19 pm ask if that decision can be changed. Then show them how they can achieve their goals without firing anyone. Sounds like it might be hard to defend keeping poor performers.
Ama* February 20, 2015 at 11:14 am So I have spent the last two weeks rushing to prep a last minute launch of a program that we were originally planning to launch this summer, but which certain PTB decided they’d rather launch in this fiscal year. *Other* PTB did not particularly support this plan (you have to apply to this program, and to fit it into this fiscal year meant an application period about half what we usually have). So there’s been a lot of internal discussion and back and forth with a firm end date of today (since launching any later than that would *really* be too short a timeline)… and they decided to wait and launch at our usual time. This is mostly great news for me — all my yearly project timelines have been based around the fact that the program was scheduled for summer, so adding it on top of everything would have meant a ridiculous amount of work (not to mention I was hoping to take some vacation in April which would have become impossible). It also means the program is basically prepped for the summer launch well in advance. But it’s still kind of deflating to have spent the last two weeks working super hard and coordinating the external vendors we work with on ads and our application system to be ready to go at the last minute to now have to send a bunch of, “well, never mind” emails.
Dani S* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am I work in social services and I’m trying to put together a basic job search skills class. Most of my clients are looking for positions in food services, retail, or jobs like construction and welding. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on searching for office jobs, thanks in no small part to this website. But does the same advice apply for jobs like fast food or retail? I’ve applied for these kinds of jobs when I was in school, but I never even got called in for an interview, so I’m feeling doubtful of my knowledge in this area. And I have no idea where to start with manual labor jobs. Is there anything that I should address differently (such as applying in person)? Any good resources to help me start putting together a simple class? Thanks in advance!
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 11:44 am Look through the AAM archives for posts, including (I think?) guest posts, by Kimberlee Stiens, who has a lot of experience in this area. I just searched on “Kim” and “fast food” in the archives and got some good hits right up top.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 12:30 pm Yes! Here’s Kim’s answer to a relevant question: https://www.askamanager.org/2011/12/how-to-get-a-job-in-food-service.html
Kelly L.* February 20, 2015 at 11:58 am They’re trending toward being more online, actually. It’s probably not universal yet, but when I was working at the public library, I met a lot of patrons who were using our computers to apply for retail and factory jobs, as these jobs had moved their application processes online. Additionally, there was a retail job I applied to when I was unemployed myself, where I dropped in but was directed to the website instead. I think the key thing is probably to look at each individual job and do what they ask for. There doesn’t seem to be a universal rule yet, but it’ll be pointless at best and a turn-off at worst if an applicant tries to go through an incorrect channel. Disclaimer: I’m not an official or expert anything. This is anecdotal.
MaryMary* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm Have you thought about reaching out to some local business owners? Maybe even the local chamber of commerce. They would be able to given you specific advice on what they’re looking for and how they do things. You might even be able to make some connections between your program participants and local employers.
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm One tip that applies especially to online applications: If they do one of those personality tests, where you have a spectrum of, say, 1-5, where 1 is Strongly Agree and 5 is Strongly Disagree, ONLY put 1’s and 5’s. Absolutely no 2s, 3s, or 4s. That little tidbit was actually revealed to me by a hiring manager at a retail store who knew he wanted to hire me, but corporate required all applicants to do this test. Also, when asked in an interview “Why do you want to work here?” don’t say “I have to apply for jobs to keep my unemployment.” I have actually received that answer several times in hiring fast food positions. I got sick of the bullshit, so the last person that said that, I gave an offer to just to spite him. He was actually an OK employee.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 3:13 pm I got sick of the bullshit, so the last person that said that, I gave an offer to just to spite him. He was actually an OK employee. That is hilarious.
PuppyPetter* February 20, 2015 at 4:09 pm I would see if you could get a few of the fast food/retail/blue-collar business owners in to do a career talk. What they do, why take an entry level FF job (i.e. what it can lead to), expectations of employers… The basics for any interview – dress appropriately (sometimes you have to define “appropriate” too), speak clearly, write clearly, be able to speak about yourself for a full minute/no one or two word answers, sit up straight, shake hands…
Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* February 20, 2015 at 5:38 pm Maybe seek out someone who IS an expert in this area. Do you have any friends in retail management? (I do – if you’re interested, I could ask a friend if they would be interested in chatting with you.)
ACA* February 20, 2015 at 11:15 am I have a job interview this afternoon! I think I’ve prepped as well as I can, but that doesn’t keep me from being nervous as anything.
Wolfey* February 20, 2015 at 11:25 am YOU CAN DO IT! You will dazzle with the brilliance of a thousand qualifications.
Sarah Nicole* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm I know, I always get so nervous that they’re going to ask a question about the company that I didn’t find in my research, or that I’ll forget some major part of an answer to a question about my experience. It’s easy to get tense, so just relax and remember that you’ve prepared as well as you can. If you keep it cool, one less-than-stellar answer won’t hurt you. Good luck!
AvonLady Barksdale* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm Good luck! And here is something I believe is universally true: a bit of nervousness keeps us on our toes. Better to be nervous (manageably so!) than complacent. You’ll be great.
Rita* February 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm Good luck! Hopefully the nerves will disappear once the interview begins.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 2:22 pm +1 – if you’re nervous it means you care about the opportunity, so channel that energy into showing enthusiasm about the position.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 2:20 pm I’m sure it’s too late for this now, but I used AAM’s interview guide for my last one and it was extremely helpful, even as someone who’s been reading AAM daily for almost a year now. I had an extremely brief moment of nervousness for about 10 second as I was walking into the room but other than that I was completely relaxed. Highly recommended!
Corporate Imposter* February 20, 2015 at 11:16 am I’m experiencing a major case of imposter syndrome. I’m transitioning from non-profit education (with some technical and software training experience) to corporate training and I have landed a major interview with a global software company. They reached out to me and we’ve been talking for a little while now. I would be relocating for this and I am heading to their offices for an interview next week. It would be an incredible opportunity for me and the job sounds exciting. However, it’s in sales operations, which I have virtually no experience with. Presumably they know that based on my resume, but I can’t help but feel like they have made an enormous mistake and weren’t paying attention to who they were talking to when they reached out to me. I have read the job description and I feel qualified as a trainer and my abilities in creating presentations and delivering complex content. But as I’ve been talking with them to prepare for the interview they’ve been using a lot of sales operations terms that I have only a rudimentary understanding of. I could not hold a conversation about these aspects of the business at any length. My training skills are topnotch, so I am not worried in that sense. I’m worried about them understanding that I don’t have sales operations knowledge. Would it be prudent to point this out in some way? For example, “Coming from an education background, what is is that you are hoping I can bring to the sales operations team? and “Will there be a training period provided for me to come up to speed on sales operations functions?” Obviously, I don’t want to pretend that I have a full grasp on sales operations and then either come off poorly because it’s clear that I don’t or somehow get a job that I would be drowning in. But it’s possible they are just looking for bright, talented people who are capable of learning the industry, but who have the necessary skills to create excellent training materials for the sales operations team. How should I handle this? How do I make a good case for bringing someone in from an education background and explain that there will be a learning curve for some of this stuff without sounding like I am really out of my league here? And how do I get over this feeling of inadequacy?
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 11:52 am Well, you should read up on sales ops! The few things I’ve learned via being in sales ops since my left my 1st “real” job not in sales ops 8 years ago have been (+ many things that are common sense): 1) NDAs and channel partner agreements…..be sure at new jobs that you know what you can say to who. For example, if there is a new company you want to do business with and they ask “how much commission do you usually pay to partners?” you probably aren’t allows to say “we usually pay 5%,” even if you know that to be true. Your company might consider such tidbits of information proprietary and expect you to have the potential business partner sign a non-disclosure agreement before sharing even sometimes mundane bits of information 2) CRM databases…or customer relationship management software….they aren’t as intense as most job ads would make you think…Salesforce and others are for the most part common-sense-to-use databases, Salesforce has lots of cool features and reports to run, sales prospects by $ amount, by stage in the sales process (which can be a subjective thing but most are on scales of 1-5), by date, by product type, etc…..and Salesforce has different levels of users, so its important to know who can do what before you assign them work, some people can just set up new accounts, some people can’t even attach documents to an account, some people can set up and save reports, some can write new reports…. 3) What Sales Operations can include: Keeping the CRM database up-to-date Contract Management (updating the contract database, if any, making sure customers aren’t buying off of contracts that are expired, helping renew soon-to-expire contracts that can be for certain pricing or to do business together at all) The financial side of sales transactions: calculating sales commissions, making sure any business channel partners receive their fees/commissions as well, make sure that any rebates for bulk purchases (or other) are applied for, occasionally running reports on the above to ensure that all of this stuff is running as it should Reporting and Analysis: running/designing reports: monthly, quarterly sales and margin reports, estimates, true-ups of past forecasts, explaining variances (this are can overlap with Accounting and Finance, but at some companies Accounting/Finance runs sales reports by their own aggregate categories, but Product Managers and other VPs usually want sales reports with more detail than Accounting can provide. For example, Accounting may have a field on their reports “intercom system sales, Q3 2014,” but sales ops will be able to design a more custom report, such as “Intercom sales by distributor and by product type, Q3 2014 vs. Q3 2013, with explanation of changes greater than 20% in any category.” ) Vendor Management: there may be some functions that could hypothetically be done in-house but there is not enough work to warrant a FTE, so you have a vendor do the work for you. That needs to be monitored. For example, a manufacturer may hire someone to print the labels for its 20 products. Quality control of the labels probably happens in the factory, but the tracking of how good the vendor is doing probably goes under Sales Ops. Maybe you get quantity discounts, but the vendor doesn’t always apply them, so you need someone to make sure they are applied if need be. Maybe you have two big orders back to back that don’t qualify for a quantity discount, but if they were one big order, the would…and since the orders happened the same week, you feel entitled to ask for a discount. Someone needs to be monitoring for things like this. Maybe you get a late fee for not paying on time. Yeah, that might go to accounting, but some accounting depts have invoices sent to a pile where the checks just get cut without a huge amount of questions (after they are approved). The Accounts payable clerk may not realize that their is a penalty/discount for paying late/early, so someone from Sales Ops would monitor the vendor invoices to make sure they are paid early, etc. etc. etc. I’m probably missing stuff, but I do think that a lot of it is common sense…..
ali* February 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm Coming from the non-profit world, you might already even have experience with CRMs, just under the name “Donor Database”. If you’re using any of the popular tools for that, almost all the skills are transferable to Salesforce.
Corporate Imposter* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm Oh, that is a helpful link for me. I have not done work specifically with donor databases but I understand it and have database experience. I actually have used salesforce before as well.
Corporate Imposter* February 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm Wow. Thank you so much for all of that information. That was extraordinary helpful. A lot of the terms you used are mentioned in the job description and this helps give me a jumping off point know that I am looking up the right things. I did just talk to the recruiter and he said I don’t need the sales ops background at all, they are excited about my education background. But I still want to go with some understanding of what the department does. So thank you for the time you took to write all of that.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:00 pm Your welcome…..also forgot to mention it will behoove you to memorize what a couple of popular Accounting terms/acronyms mean, as they get thrown around a lot in non-Accounting settings – COGS, EBITDA, net profit, gross profit, margin, etc. and the different between “markup” and “adding points of margin”….you won’t want some know-it-all to make a show of explaining those to you on the job:-) Good luck
Corporate Imposter* February 20, 2015 at 1:55 pm Thank you, thank you. I think I can get over the imposter syndrome issue if I feel like I know what I am talking about a little more.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm Don’t have imposter’s syndrome because there are lots of (mostly) guys who have the opposite mentality, and act like they know everything, even when they only know bits and pieces
Corporate Imposter* February 20, 2015 at 12:49 pm On another note, I have to say a big thanks to Alison and the commenters here. I’ve been following for about 8 months now and have used the guidance here to improve my resume and cover letter and it is paying off big time! Never in my life have I seen this much interest. I’m getting contacted daily by employers. In the past few weeks I’ve had 7 interviews and 1 job offer (which I turned down several times after they kept increasing the salary!), plus another 3 interviews scheduled for next week. It’s more than I have had in years! Also, I am having a phenomenal experience with this recruiter. He is actually walking me through the interview, making himself available for questions, giving me tips about the interviewer and their expectations, and has answered every one of my questions in depth, without making me feel rushed. He said he was here to support me through the process. Absolutely wonderful. I have never had an experience with a recruiter like this. To all you recruiters out there who do this sort of thing, thank you for making the interview process that much easier!
voluptuousfire* February 20, 2015 at 3:56 pm Just chiming in: Salesforce is wonderful. I used it in my last two jobs and it’s super user friendly. You’ll do fine.
Wolfey* February 20, 2015 at 11:20 am Just wanted to pop in with thanks and an update: I really appreciate all the people who’ve given advice and kind words over the last few Fridays. It’s really helped in dealing with my co-workers and plans to switch careers. That friend of mine who was upset by my hours unexpectedly left this week. She had a fantastic opportunity come up, gave her notice two days ago and tried to make plans to wrap up her projects over the notice period, but the firm rudely indicated that they wouldn’t keep her for the notice period (they have a tendency to boot people at the notice) and she made plans to start immediately with her new job. Yesterday our creepy HR dude came back to ask her to stay because important people had be frantically emailing him about how they needed her, but she since she was already finishing up her urgent projects and had assigned everything else out to other people, she declined. The back and forth gave her hives. The whole process exposed such rudeness, manipulation, indiscretion/gossip, outright lying, and a glee in throwing people throwing under the bus that I wish I could just walk out in protest. Apparently the heads of my firm have a terrible reputation in the legal community for exactly this kind of behavior. I’m SO glad my friend got out. I’m planning to give my 2 notice next Friday :)
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 2:57 pm I’m glad your coworker found an out, and I wish you luck with yours. The place sounds like a nightmare! I’m sure it will feel soooo good to get out of there!
Wolfey* February 20, 2015 at 3:21 pm Oh, it will be!!! And it is. HR dude (who has also written a creepy book about teenage girls who pant for and lust after and want to lick the sweat of a douchebag guy [i.e. HR dude himself]. So many shout-outs to rape, genitals of all sorts, and wavy medieval swords in the first 10 paragraphs. $1.99 on Amazon!) outright lies to the staff about what other people say about them, lies to the board about the staff, will completely deny that he ever promised you something, and will do everything he can to trap you with your own words (even if it means inserting his into your mouth). No joke, ~30 people have left in 10 months and we’ve lost about 4 of them since January. At least 3 more are looking to go. We’re only a 70 person firm! This will all be funny once I give notice.
Lord Kubera of the Lokapalas* February 20, 2015 at 6:13 pm So … it sounds like you work at a law firm?
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:22 am Last week I had asked about disclosing my depression/anxiety/ADD to my boss and I want to thank everybody for their responses. I wanted to give an update for those who are going through a similar situation. I went to my one on one and my boss started with telling my work has slipped and asked if I was having a crisis. I told her I have a medical issue that is affecting my work and I’ve noticed the quality of my work has mirrored how effective my treatment was going. Also that I know the quality of my work is a problem but I’m working on fixing it. She responded that she was relieved, asked if I needed any accommodations, and said her door is always open. She was worried that I had lost interest in my job and just didn’t care anymore (which couldn’t be farther from the truth, I love what I do and she stated that’s one of the reasons they hired me). However she did indicate that it can’t go on forever like which I agree with. This part is not work related but apparently there is a genetic test to see which antidepressants you respond better to however insurance companies don’t cover it unless you have tried a couple and they haven’t worked well. I got it done this week but won’t find out for another week or two. So basically instead of my doctor making an educated guess he could have started me on the right one letting me skip over the two that made everything worse. I’m livid at the American insurance system. Hopefully this helps anybody going through the same thing.
ACA* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 am there is a genetic test to see which antidepressants you respond better to Interesting! Do you remember the name of the test? I’ve got a doctor’s appointment coming up in a few weeks and that might be worth trying for me. And I hope that once the results of this test come in, you can get yourself on a medication that will actually help improve your mental health. :)
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:38 am I believe GeneSight. After looking more into it I think he only marked it for antidepressants which now I’m also ticked at him because my ADD meds aren’t great.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 12:07 pm Oooh, is this for real? God, I hope this actually happens someday because one of the reasons why I fear the drugs is because of the whole blind guess-and-check thing.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 12:37 pm I will update once I find out. Thank god I am going on vacation next week. That means I will be producing no work.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 3:17 pm It sucks but it’s totally worth it. I used to tongue my pills in high school (thank you to Girl Interrupted for giving me that lovely idea!) because I hated the side effects and I thought that meant I just shouldn’t take any anti-depressants. Fast forward 10 years and I finally found a doctor that helped me get on the right meds. It was like putting on glasses for the first time and realizing how bad your vision was all along.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:03 pm There’s been some dispute over how effective it actually is as a predictor, though, so it’s not a guarantee that medication won’t misfire.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 1:34 pm Yes, it’s actually a big issue with the FDA right now and the actual accuracy of the tests and the efficacy of their advice is largely unexamined. Some of the companies offering these were forced to halt for a while when under examination for their claims last year.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 1:49 pm That’s good to know. As I went on one that made my depression worse and nullified any affects from my ADD medications it can’t hurt at this point.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 4:33 pm I went Googling after this and about all I could find was (a) their web page, and (b) a couple of articles on Fox News. This did not bode well to me for this being a legitimate thing, perhaps. Sigh.
LizNYC* February 20, 2015 at 12:16 pm That sounds like it went really well. Good luck in finding a good treatment!
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 2:05 pm Sounds like a pretty good conversation with your boss. And take what she said seriously. Are there any accommodations that would help you work better? Just seeing that you’re trying to make an effort towards fixing it would be a good step forward!
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 3:04 pm I came up with a couple. I wanted to come in with an action plan going forward.
Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* February 20, 2015 at 5:41 pm Would you be willing to share your ideas for accommodations? This is something I’ve struggled with.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 7:23 pm I guess it’s not accommodations as much as strategies. The big ones are I go to a private room to edit and using a blank sheet of paper to go line by line. I also have in-ear buds that i put in with no music to help block external noise. I was specifically told without asking that I can’t have an office which was disappointing. Mostly I’m just battling genetics at this point.
Anx* February 20, 2015 at 2:46 pm I’m so excited to see that there’s a demonstrated interest in this genetic testing! I’m hoping my advisor lets me work on something similar on this for my independent study but I doubt it will be allowed because of funding (I’m an undergrad) and resources.
how philip jose farmer inspired purple haze* February 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm I’m not a doctor, but I really hate SSRI drugs. So my doctor gave me Wellbutrin for a few years, and it worked really well with me. It may not work for you – heck, it might be the drug that you had a reaction to – but if you’ve never tried it, you may want to ask your doctor about it. Jeepers, I sound like one of those crappy Big Pharma commercials they show during the TV news. Sorry. But I gather that effective non-SSRIs are somewhat rare, and also that many doctors seem to never move beyond SSRIs.
Carrie in Scotland* February 20, 2015 at 11:23 am I’ve been pondering this for a wee while but will throw it out to the hive in the hope that someone can come up with better phrasing that I can! So: I am due for an annual review in the next few months and basically I am bored in my job. I am a general admin for the entire department as a whole, so I can support teams that do different things with one main co-ordinator being my “main” source of work. However, this “main” source of work really doesn’t offer me very much; partly because the co-ordinator is excellent and partly because there really isn’t that much admin to do on a daily (or even weekly) basis. My office-mate was out sick for 2 days and I helped with her work and I enjoyed it because it was a stack of work so I was busy and it was something different. However, because of spreadsheets and things, we both couldn’t do this at the same time. How do I put it that I’d like more work to do on a daily basis without saying I’m bored? (and is it also worth is given I’m hoping to move away in the summer?)
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 11:37 am What about something like, “Now that I’ve been with the company for X amount of time and feel comfortable in my current position, I’d love to talk about ways I could expand my role to include additional responsibilities.”
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am I enjoyed doing a,b,c, while Jane was out because of x,y,z. I have the capacity to be doing more, would it be possible to expand my responsibilities.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 11:26 am Unsolicited career advice…1/2 rant / 1/2 want feedback… I recently left a job I was at for a long time in a niche industry of another medium sized industry. Thinking I wanted to stay in niche industry, I went to a competitor, and left after only a few weeks because I felt micromanaged and like I had gone years back in my career, and I saw that there was never going to be room for advancement (+ a few other issues I won’t go into online)…. So now the unsolicited career advice. Keeping in mind I am 34 in a large city and finished college 12 years ago and have 6 years of this particular industry experience: 1) Beg for old job or job-I-was-at-shortly back. (my rebuttal is that I hit the glass ceiling in terms of responsibility and the only place left to go is down or stagnate, doesn’t it make sense to try something new after a while, even if it’s at the same level?) 2) Take an entry level job somewhere else and work your way up (my rebuttal has been, why would a company even hire me at the entry level at this point? Also, what are the chances of me starting at the bottom and “working my way up,” meaning “get a +/- $5K raise every 4-6 months for the next couple of years?) 3) “Eat humble pie” and take what you can get. (Again, not sure if I’m missing the connection, but I don’t automatically equate being humble with a job search. If I applied “humble” to job searching, wouldn’t that just mean that I take a minimum wage job and think that I’m not worthy for better? I don’t see how that is helpful). I feel a little backstabbed that people who saw me work 10-11 (and every once in a while 12) hour days every day for years trying to work my way up the “old fashioned” way think that I am the one who needs a reality check and doesn’t deserve a good job. They all just did 9-5 and delegated the parts of their work that they found difficult. I also think that this type of not helpful advice is the result of the bad stereotypes out there about millenials that pops up every single day on the internet. The comments on those Millenial articles are nasty, and show how clueless people can be in that they blame things people 34 and under do on their age, but don’t blame all of the bad things people 35+ (or is it 36+ now?) do on their age. It’s a double standard. But I digress…..but I really see people indirectly quoting me advice from those “how to work with a millennial” articles on the internet. Older people have gone from treating me like an adult to talking me out of my “high expectations” and they keep telling me not to expect “so much” money, even though my expectations are really quite average, as is my salary. I’m questioning why I worked so hard for years right now, because I’m not seeing how it had much of a long term benefit, especially if people are going to see me as a “millennial” stereotype (I must note that boss at company I was at very shortly mentioned millenials quite often. It was quite annoying to be lumped in with a huge age range before they even knew much about me.) Aaahhh!! Has anyone else reinvented their career after getting out of a niche industry? To how different of an industry where you able to make a jump to? It seems hiring managers like to hire people who did the same exact thing before, but not only do I not want to do same-exact-thing anymore, but jobs doing it are so few that the I’ve only seen 2 job postings doing it in the entire NE corridor this month, both 200 miles from me!
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 am I’m sure you have other transferable skills, why would you have to start over at entry-level? I guess not knowing the details, it makes it a little difficult to give advice but to me, it sounds like you’re selling yourself short!
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:46 am But, but, you just need to get your foot in the door! (Actual advice: Don’t take advice from friends or relatives who don’t work in your field. They don’t know what they’re talking about, but they want to help, so they give the advice they’re familiar with. Which in your case isn’t relevant.)
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am I feel the same way. I would conduct a job hunt looking for positions you’re qualified for and what you want to do. Career changes don’t mean starting over from the bottom, just not being able to change and move up or a lateral move. Also begging for an old job probably won’t work.
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 11:52 am I agree with BRR and it sounds like you don’t really want to go back to old job any way.
voluptuousfire* February 20, 2015 at 4:24 pm I’m in the same boat to a certain extent. Mid thirties, so technically I’m Gen X but often get lumped in with the Millennials. (I’ve heard us referred to as the Catalano generation, after Jordan Catalano from My So-Called Life. :D) I also came from a niche industry. I worked for the largest company in my industry (it created the industry, actually) as a recruiter and although I did well in the role, my work as a recruiter was more focused on the administration of the process than actual, proper recruitment (sourcing, doing in person interviews, etc). After my job at the niche company was eliminated, I took on a temp role with a recruitment department. I took on some lower level recruitment and both my experiences and the temp gig didn’t work out. So much for recruitment. Ever since that temp job, I’ve been drifting. I jumped from education to education tech to start up. The start up was interesting but ultimately I felt like someone’s grandmother because on average I was about 7-10 years older than my colleagues, unless they were on the exec team. Ultimately I really could see myself working at a start up because my eclectic background shows I can wear many hats/have transferable skills but hiring with those seem so fickle. Minds change so quickly. The jobs that I see nowadays seem to split into two categories: 1) they need 7+ years experience in something or 2) require 1-3 years or 1+ years experience. I rarely see anything in between. If seems if you’re mid-career and not on a manager or executive track, you’re screwed. I’ve been interviewing for recruitment coordinator type roles (which is ultimately the best way to describe my niche recruitment job) that involve some recruitment and I’m hoping to revisit the recruiter possibility again. I’m not sure my experience with that temp job was situational or my skills aren’t up to par. Eh, I’ll figure it out eventually! So in long and short, it’s not just you. :) I can’t really offer any advice, but maybe a bit of solidarity.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 11:37 pm Wow so many things in common, we should do coffee:-) I get your “why aren’t you on the management track” stigma thing, um, duh mr. interviewee, it’s not my fault! I actually would be management material in a larger company! Many jobs don’t have such a track! As per years of experience, I noticed that too this year. It was different during my 2nd real job search in 2007. I was leaving a job of 3 years and kept thinking “ugh, all of the jobs want 5-7 years of experience”….now I want those, and can’t find them. Everything says 2-3 years. I don’t know if they mean it or not. As per age, yeah, it is awkward. I do have many good qualities that older workers recognize, but younger workers don’t seem to notice, so I do like to work around older people. I did only briefly last at a company where people were on average 6 yrs younger than me. Many of my strong points were under-utilized, and my in-person communication skills were lost because no one wanted to actually talk, it was all email and chat until my wrists hurt. In general the whole search is frustrating because I can afford to take less than some people our age take. I am in NYC so I “should” be making 70s-80K from what I gather. I made that at past job, but I am in a good position to take mid-60s (which as you may know, in NY isn’t great, but I have a great cheap apt.), and I occasionally see a fresh grad making $60K+, so some days I meet people who say “wow I wish I made that much,” on other days, I’m surrounded by 26 year olds making $70K, so I have NO clue what is acceptable or expected of me. Am I wasting my time applying to xyz analytical roles because they want a 25yo? Are they rejecting me because they think someone my age in NYC won’t be willing to work for less than 70K? I’ve actually heard such conversations at past job, but I have no clue if people are having such conversations about my applications….a big fat “uuggghhh” is due.
Dr. Doll* February 20, 2015 at 11:31 am I had a situation arise that I’d love some perspectives on. I have a new team member who took on a very big “stretch” project and it wasn’t working out; s/he didn’t have the skills for it. With a tight deadline looming, I moved the project to a more experienced person. New Person responded in what, to me, was a very gracious and professional way: “I’m disappointed with myself, but I’m glad to contribute in any way that will help” and then took on a lot of support activities for the project. To me, this indicates that I made a good hiring choice even if I could have wished for more developed specific skills. (I couldn’t FIND anyone with the skills I really needed, and with universities being how they are, if I didn’t hire fast, I could lose the position). The person took a risk, worked really hard, and then when it didn’t go well and they lost the project, picked up a different bag and toted that load. What do you think, AAMers?
Rayner* February 20, 2015 at 11:37 am I think there’s not much either of you could have done. You gave them a project beyond their scope, even as a stretch project, and while they tried, they couldn’t handle it. You made the best of a bad situation and they handled that well, and helped any way they could. It’s not good to have to shift gears midproject but you should be impressed with your hiring choice and feel satisfied that you made the best of what you had, and made a good choice as a manager with regards to the project. A bad choice would have been to let the deadline hit and then have to scramble to make up the time or to get mad about it. I say good job – you tried, it didn’t work out, but you fixed it anyway. Can you teach the hire those skills now? Let them work up to being at the level you want because it sounds like otherwise, they did work with the project as support, but not the main.
CollegeAdmin* February 20, 2015 at 11:43 am I think that is a sign of an excellent hire! Not only was the person willing to take on this project, but also willing to accept that it was beyond her and still help the new project lead (instead of being confrontational and/or refusing to assist). I’d make sure to pass that along – that you thought she handled it very well – and give her opportunities to take on different stretch assignments going forward and for training (to be able to handle a project of that scope in the future). Plus, remember this when performance reviews/raise season roll around – I think this a person you want to keep!
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 1:46 pm Yes, please let her know that you appreciated how she handled this, and are interested in giving her additional training and responsibilities so that she can successfully take this type of project on in the future. If it were me in her shoes, that would be very encouraging.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm It would help to know what skills you’re talking about, but I do agree with you that your hire sounds OK. I would try to fill in the skill gap though, and I also appreciate your hiring a non-perfect candidate. I am an Analyst and feel like I get cut from consideration from certain jobs because I don’t know SQL and barely know Access. I am very advanced in Excel though. NO job I ever worked at used either Access or SQL, so if no one gives me a chance to use it (and both look easy enough from the tutorials I’ve looked at), I will NEVER become an expert. So it’s nice when employers are willing to take the leap and hire people without the person having every exact skill on paper.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 1:29 pm I think it would be great if you see how she responds to “what can we do to prepare you to be successful next time.”
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 3:23 pm Honestly, I think you found a gold mine here, because that kind of attitude is something that’s rare and almost impossible to teach. She sounds like the kind of person you find a place for just so you can keep her, even if she might not be able to move up to the next level of where she is.
Hi! I'm the Devil's Advocate. Pleased to meetcha!* February 20, 2015 at 6:46 pm Kudos to both of you – some bosses wouldn’t take the “stretch” into account. My name’s Azazel – you can call me Az. Not knowing the actual nature of the project, the one issue I might raise is: what, if any, effort did the person put into developing the skills that would have been necessary to successfully complete the project? And yes, one thing to consider is whether or not it’s even possible to learn these skills in the given time (ie, the project involves pro-level golfing skills). It is of course soooo easy for me to suggest that you perhaps try to help her gain some of the skills that she lacks? Of course, this might not be possible. But I’ll bet you a dollar this person would love to someday give that project (or something like it) a second shot, and succeed.
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 11:32 am I have been getting very distracted at work lately. I guess sometimes I get in these “distracted moods.” It’s really hurting my performance :( Does anyone else suffer from these occasionally? How do you stay on track and shake it off? I usually don’t have a problem concentrating. I’ve been making lists with specific times I need to accomplish things, using Outlook reminders, my phone is locked in my desk drawer, etc. The only thing that has really helped is listening to music. I’m not sure why but it helps me focus. I just feel a little all over the place! Any advice is appreciated.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am Whenever I need to buckle down and work on a training manual or some other big project I’ve been putting off and that will require periods of focus, I turn on classical music on YouTube and it locks my concentration down like nothing else does. I have always enjoyed classical music, so I suppose that helps, but that is one of the only things that helps settle and focus me. The other thing I have noticed about myself is I get really distracted when I’m procrastinating (which if often). I flit from thing to thing and really am not very productive. But once I reach the point where I have to start working on a project or else I’ll be in trouble with a deadline, I find that I am able to focus better. Are you feeling overwhelmed right now?
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 11:51 am Hildi, First of all thank you so much for the advice. I’ll try the classical music :) I am feeling a little overwhelmed right now- there are so many things to do! I make list after list but it keeps growing, no matter what I cross off! I am doing the same thing that you described- going from thing to thing and not being very productive :(
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm I hope someone else will weigh in on this, cause I need advice in this category, too. :) Ironically, I am tasked to teach a time management class (which I despise, btw, because I feel like such a fraud telling people what to do when I don’t do any of it). ANYWAY, one of the points I’ve talked about in classes with people is that sometimes that list just never goes away. That is just the reality of the working world, I’m afraid. One thing that’s a perennial time mgmt. topic is prioritizing. The only real measure of sucess I’ve had on this front is to not make lists and prioritize at the beginning of each day. But instead I constantly bounce each new thing that comes up against the other things I have to get done and ask myself “which one has the bigger payoff?” or “which one is the best use of my time right now?” oddly, that has helped me quite a bit when I actually do it.
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 1:20 pm Oh goodness, the “Aaack, I have too much work to do, so watch me not do any of it!” thing. You’re not the only person who gets that. Here’s a few things that have helped me: – Write down everything that needs to be done. If it’s on paper, I can stop worrying that I’ll forget it and stop trying to hold it all in my head at one time. – Make a very short to-do list of things I want to work on today. I limit myself to one post-it note. Then I only have to pick between working on one of three or four things, instead of ten or twenty. Plus having everything crossed off (or at least progress made) at the end of the day feels good. – Make myself unavailable. Close the office door, set my chat status to busy. – Take good breaks. This is a bit counter-intuitive, but if I find myself procrastinating like crazy it often helps to go work on my knitting for 10 minutes. I come back with some of the brain fog cleared and am able to break the procrastination cycle.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 4:37 pm Post-it note to-do lists are amazing. I use them every day and highly recommend that technique.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 4:36 pm One music-related suggestion that might sound weird but makes sense – try to find a video game soundtrack you like. Video game music is specifically designed to provide ambient noise but not enough to distract you from what you’re doing. The Final Fantasy series has famously beautiful music and I’ve always been a fan of the Metroid Prime soundtrack, too.
Sarah Nicole* February 20, 2015 at 12:10 pm I find that I have trouble focusing when I don’t sleep well and haven’t been eating well. I know it’s not exactly related to what you’re doing at work, but could you be taking better care of yourself? I focus when I have time to wake up, eat breakfast, get my coffee, and have had a good night’s sleep. If I don’t get all that in, no matter what techniques I use at work, I am a mess!
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 2:28 pm I was going to suggest trying to get more sleep – this totally happens to me when I’ve been staying up late. I come to work and feel like there’s just cloud in my head instead of a brain.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 3:09 pm Me too. On days like that, even music doesn’t help, and that is usually my go-to focus thing.
OriginalEmma* February 20, 2015 at 3:32 pm I’ve noticed when I’m not so active, I become more easily distracted. I’ve started jogging and doing yoga to, to quote the Oatmeal, “rescue myself from my computer.”
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 9:12 pm Yep, that is what it sounds like to me. A tired mind will wander around and around and never settle anywhere. I used to make it a point to go to bed early on Wednesdays. It seemed to give me an added boost for the rest of the week. But try increasing your hours of sleep and see where that puts you.
RandomName* February 20, 2015 at 12:24 pm I find I really need external deadlines to get myself motivated to work quickly. And it doesn’t just have to be that my boss tells me to have something done by a certain date… if I tell someone I will have something to them by a certain date, I won’t miss the deadline except for extreme circumstances. I also find that checklists are a motivator for me. I really like checking things off and hate to see a full list.
Random Name* February 20, 2015 at 12:35 pm So I guess as a follow up to this, when you have been really productive in the past, what has driven you to be that way? You mentioned listening to music, but are there any other factors?
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm In addition to Sarah Nicole’s excellent point, you might try getting up and stretching/walking every half an hour or so–it’s good for you anyway, and it’s quite likely to help your concentration.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm I didn’t get a chance to read others’ replies, so sorry if this is a duplicate answer, but I find that things like music are managed distractions. If a room is too quiet, part of my focus gets trained on random noises. If the distraction is a known and minimally engaging noise, I don’t dedicate further attention to it. Same goes with visual distractions – if part of my job involves responding to people, my brain would be trained to dedicate attention to movement in case it was a person. However, if I situate myself so I’m looking out a window that has trees or cars or even people that move (but that I don’t have to respond to) I don’t get as distracted by it. The visual component took some conditioning, though.
OriginalEmma* February 20, 2015 at 3:28 pm I’ve recently noticed a correllation for me between less physical activity and more distractedness. Since it’s been bitterly cold (-11F, -22F with the wind chill), I’ve been driving to work instead of taking the train. I also haven’t been jogging. Without my typical 1-mile walk to and from the station (2-mile round trip),I’ve been feeling unable to focus. I wonder if adding a bit of regularly-scheduled activity (whatever it takes to rescue you from your computer or TV or what-have-you) before or after work might help?
catsAreCool* February 20, 2015 at 10:54 pm Music helps me focus, too. Especially jazz for some reason. I think because most of it is instrumental only, and it’s complicated.
Rayner* February 20, 2015 at 11:32 am Ever do that thing where you keep ruminating on a problem that you had in the past, and it’s so skeevy and weird it won’t go away even though there’s nothing you can do about it now? Even though it was over a decade ago. I’m having issues with something that happened to me when I was 15, and wondered how you guys think I should have handled it in the past. Basically, in the UK, aged 14-15, you get to spend an exciting two weeks in the workplace to learn what it’s like to be a productive member of society. Whee, yay, it actually means that 90% of your year group get to work in an office, filing and learning how to be a peon while the other 10% do interesting things, all the while being unpaid. Bonus. I was sent to the local council – think local government – and first week was in the department that dealt with councillors, and the post room. All fine, all okay, all very boring. Second week, I get sent to the typing pool. First few days, fine. Last few, not so much. I need a computer to log into as obviously, I don’t have one. Creepy guy sitting across from me gives me his log on, and I use it to type up documents, and do transcripts. Creepy guy keeps looking at me, smiling at me every time I look up, and I always feel like his attention is on me. He’s socially awkward and keeps being in the same places I am. He always asks me what I’m doing even when it’s none of his business and I get definite creepy vibes off of him. When he logs me in into the computer, he doesn’t ask me to stand up from the chair, he leans over me. On my last day, he kneels down next to me while I’m working and hands me a note: “here’s my name, address, and email. I really like you, it would be great to talk more.” He must have been… easily 25-30? Wtf does a fifteen year old say to that? I have no idea if he thought I was older – I was one of those girls who looked eighteen at fifteen but even so. I think i just hid it and fobbed him off until I could leave but it was super creepy. When I got back to school, I handed the note to a teacher and as far as I know, nothing happened. Obv. super badly handled, would not fly now. What would you have done? As a manager or as a colleague? Should I have told someone in the council and reported it properly that way?
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 11:36 am You did the right thing telling your teacher. The only other thing you/your parents could have done was go to the company who co-ordinated the work experience, not the council there would have been a central agency who provided the lists to the school. They would have then followed up with the person in charge of the placement.
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am Oh, gross. He must have know you were a teenager, right, if that’s a nationwide thing?
Rayner* February 20, 2015 at 11:45 am IDK whether he knew that because I never went around the office and said, “Hey, I’m on work experience etc” and I didn’t obviously look, you know, fifteen, especially not when I was borrowing my mother’s work clothes. But, on the other hand, spend time with a fifteen year old and they don’t sound like an adult. At all. They don’t act that way. And I sure as hell didn’t come off as an employee – was way too disorganised and impulsive. Just… super gross.
some1* February 20, 2015 at 12:20 pm But this is why you shouldn’t walk up to coworkers you don’t even know and ask them out. He could have asked you a couple of getting to know you questions that coworkers would (“Where’d you used to work?” “Do you have a long commute?”) and found out you were underage.
asteramella* February 20, 2015 at 11:25 pm Yeah, your actual numerical age does not matter in this situation as much as the fact that you were obviously and materially a child. People who focus super heavily on what age is “legal” (e.g. “it’s not ok to hit on a kid who is 16 but it’s fine at 18 because it’s legal!”) are just looking for ways to exploit young people.
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:43 am And yeah, you could have reported it, and maybe someone would have taken appropriate actions. But that’s SO hard for a 15 year old. I know I let so many creepy shit slide because I wasn’t equipped to deal with it, didn’t know how to react, didn’t know who to go to… kids generally don’t know how to respond to their boundaries being violated by an adult. And creeps like this KNOW that and take advantage of it.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:43 am I probably would have done what you did, but I’m not even sure I would have had the presence of mind to give the note to my teacher. I honestly have no idea what I would have done because I was a super innocent kid. I probably was one of that that would have easily been taken advantage of because I was so trusting (but could definitely tell when men were being weird). I’m sorry that pops up for you in your mind every now and again; I think you probably did the think that most 15 year olds would have done?
PurpleMonkeyDishwasher* February 20, 2015 at 3:04 pm As a 15 year old, you did the best thing you possibly could’ve done in that scenario by telling the teacher. Don’t dwell on it. Also, don’t assume nothing was done just because you didn’t hear anything further about it – I volunteer with teenagers, and a co-advisor of mine was in a somewhat similar scenario, but on the adult-who-was-told side. The creeper at issue was removed from the program, with no further follow-up with the kid reporting the creeper because co-advisor didn’t want to re-traumatize her or create added stress for her by turning a one time “that was weird” into drawn-out her-vs.-creepy-adult experience when it wasn’t necessary. Also, side note, no matter how old or young they look, I can immediately tell which of the teens I work with are 14/15 and which ones are 18/19 – there’s a *remarkable* difference over the course of those few short years, and no matter how dressed up or self-possessed or “mature for his/her age” the 15 year old is, the 15 year old is clearly, clearly not 18. You were 100% right to be creeped out then, and you are 100% right to be retroactively creeped out now. Dude was creepy.
Gully Foyle is my name* February 20, 2015 at 8:21 pm I understand that you were creeped out by this guy, but … in all honesty, it sounds like he may have been a socially inept guy in his late 20s who thought you were 18yo. I mean:you don’t mention any inappropriate touching, and it sounds like he waited until you were going to leave to give you his contact info. What would have raised red flags with me would have been stuff like: he was always touchy-feely on you. Or he took it upon himself to find your phone # or email address and call you or email you. Or he repeatedly tried to meet with you outside of work. Or he made inappropriate / sexual remarks to you. There may be more to this story than you are telling us, but based on the above, I don’t see anything that sounds like anything but social ineptness on his part. I’m speaking as a hetero guy who was apparently cute when he was 16yo: I had older men ask me to lie down in their bed with them and listen to music and give them a massage, and I got high-pressured into skinny dipping with some guy in his pool after cutting his lawn (where, natch, he wants to talk about masturbation) and when I was in college, I was at the grocery store and some old drunk guy walked past me and grabbed my crotch, and even later in life, when I was out of college and working, an older fellow I was working with grabbed my butt. I didn’t do anything about any of those incidents except avoid the instigators. Arguably I should have done something about those last two incidents – but they happened so quickly, and were such a shock – like “did that really happen?!” – in some odd way I just ignored that the incident happened and moved forward.
Naomi* February 20, 2015 at 8:52 pm This sort of thing happened several times when I got my first job at 16. I think at that age I was too young to have the confidence to say anything. I felt that if someone didn’t do something really overtly inappropriate, there wasn’t any point in reporting it, even though the comments made me very uncomfortable. In retrospect, I could probably have handled it better, but I think it’s unreasonable to expect a teenager to know how to respond to something like this.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 9:24 pm This is going to sound odd. But sometimes when a long-ago experience keeps replaying in our heads it is because something parallel to it is happening right now and we do not see it. Is there anyone around you right now that is making you uncomfortable? Or it could be that you still feel you do not stand up for yourself very well. (Notice, I say “feel”, you may actually do a good job of not letting people walk all over you, but you do not realize it.) Or is there someone in your life who has let you down in a significant way- because your story here is also about an authority figure who let you down/failed you. Think about what is going on right now that might in some way echo that earlier story. If you come up with something that does, start thinking about steps to remedy.
Ineloquent* February 20, 2015 at 11:33 am What can I do about my manager? He’s a nice guy (to me, at least), but he complains to me about all my coworkers, going into detail about stuff that they’re doing and investigations into their behavior. I know it’s not professional, and I don’t initiate these bash-fests, but I also feel like I can’t shut them down effectively whithout pissing him off. I’m pretty sure it’s mostly inexperience on his part, but it’s getting really uncomfortable for me.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:37 am Oh ew, I hate this. I had a boss like this once – and I made it clear that I wasn’t comfortable gossiping about my coworkers, which put me on her target list. She was very “in group”/”out group”. So immature. I think your best reaction with this is a noncommittal “hmmm” when he does this. Just make a noise to acknowledge that you’re listening but don’t give any encouragement. What a tool.
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:38 am I had a coworker like this. A simple “I’ve never had that experience with Jessica” or a non-commital “hmm” usually bored him into stopping.
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:49 am Me too. The coworker really stopped when I started responding with only positive things.
CrazyCatLady* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am I would probably just try to change the subject to something else work-related. Like “Huh, interesting. Did you ever end up hearing more details about XYZ project?” Unless he’s completely clueless, enough times of doing this should hopefully clue him in that you’re not great sounding board for those types of discussions.
Snork Maiden* February 20, 2015 at 3:42 pm (Today I learned I have completely clueless people in my office)
Ineloquent* February 20, 2015 at 11:56 am Part of the problem is that I kind of opened the door to it. I had to bring up potential time fraud that’s happening with one of my coworkers (because he’s off site and would never have known otherwise) and I just assumed it would be handled professionally. But now it’s like ‘Oh, Ineloquent, Alice said she was working from home for six hours after work on Monday and that’s why she took of Tuesday, but I don’t believe her’ ‘You know, Boss-man, as her manager you have the ability and responsibility to ask her to account for her time…’ ‘Oh, and let me tell you about the super big screw up Kevin made. Why is that guy so useless? I wish all my employees were as awesome as you, Ineloquent.’ I mean, it’s great that he thinks I’m great, but so awkward.
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 12:32 pm I don’t know, but I feel for you. I have a manager like this now, and it makes me wonder what he’s saying to my colleagues about me behind my back. Really ramps up the insecurity, I tell ya.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 9:28 pm He is probably talking about you in a similar manner behind your back. Just be aware. One thing I have done is made a statement such as “Hmmm. I can see your point. But I’m not a boss so I feel that I have to try to get along with everyone as best as possible. I feel that is part of my job.” Go with your gut- if this does not sound like it will fly then don’t use it.
Iro* February 23, 2015 at 12:03 pm I’ve been in this situation both ways (both finding out that my boss is spewing unfounded BS about me to my co-workers as well as the one sitting there being informed about another’s co-workers “wrong doing”. It totally sucks! It’s actually something I mentioned on my exit interview as something management needed to improve on. What drives me crazy is the double standard. YOU need to be professional, keep things close to sleeve, etc but I CAN talk behind people’s backs and it’s not a problem. ><
Malissa* February 20, 2015 at 11:33 am So my telephone interview seemed like it was cut short and they were just doing it out of obligation to include so many people in the candidate pool. Sigh. Moving on and looking for the next opportunity now.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm I’ve never heard of anyone doing courtesy phone interviews just for the sake of numbers. More likely you said or did something that turned you into a “no.”
PuppyPetter* February 20, 2015 at 4:22 pm It could be that someone other than the interviewer wanted the person to be interviewed. I’ve had to do that (i.e. board member’s brother’s sister-in-law has a child who “would be perfect” for the job even if the child isn’t interested in it type thing). Also had the comptroller tell me once who I had to interview even though I knew it would not be a match.
Dang* February 20, 2015 at 6:55 pm Has happened to me too, as recently as 2 weeks ago. Academia? My old job instructed us to look for reasons to not bring people in for interviews if they wanted an internal candidate.
9moreminutes* February 20, 2015 at 11:34 am I started a job in December through a recruiting company. When I started I knew the work wasn’t very exciting but I loved the environment so I was happy at the job. Slowly, the environment has started to change and now I’m dreading going to work so I reached out to my recruiter explaining I was unhappy and asking about other opportunities. My recruiter told me they were out of town due to a family emergency but would contact me as soon as they got back. Today, I got called into a meeting with my supervisor and manager because my recruiter called them and told them that I wanted to be transferred to another company. Is this normal behavior for a recruiter? I thought I was doing them a solid by offering to get another job through them instead of reaching out to another recruiter.
College Career Counselor* February 20, 2015 at 12:49 pm In my opinion, that recruiter has no tact. Now, the recruiter’s allegiance may be to the company you work for (because they have a contract), but even so, I would think that the recruiter should (ethically) have said something along those lines when you inquired about other opportunities. And ideally kept their mouth shut, because “outing” you as a job-seeker can jeopardize your current work situation.
9moreminutes* February 20, 2015 at 1:56 pm Is there any point to emailing the recruiter to ask them why they did what they did or should I just move on?
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:11 pm Recruiter at past temp job kept visiting the company I was placed at and trying to solicit more business from them, to the point that they had to politely ask all of the temps from that agency not to let him in the building. Awkward!
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 am Is it normal for exempt vs non-exempt employees to have different benefits? I work at a major university as an non-exempt employee. The faculty and exempt staff get better benefits that we do. For example, from day 1 of employment the faculty and exempt staff can get football tickets (we have a major football program) but non-exempt employees have to be there at least 10 years (i think it is longer) to get football tickets. However, the more important one is that non-exempt employees do not get matching in the 403B program ever, yet starting very early, exempt employees do get 403B matching. In all fairness, non-exempt employees do get 1 extra day off a year (birthday holiday) where exempt employees do not get this benefit. However, exempt employees (I believe) get more time off per year from day 1 than non-exempt employees do. I would gladly exchange my 1 day off for matching in the 403B program. Is this normal? Thanks!
april ludgate* February 20, 2015 at 12:29 pm I work in a college as well and, though I’m fairly new, from what I’ve observed it’s common and expected. I have a coworker who once referred to it as the “caste system.” I have no idea if it’s just an academia thing, though.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:09 pm Benefits at my university are all over the place; they’re not even all handled by the same HR group. It’s additionally complicated by who’s unionized, who’s civil service, etc. I’m with you on the matching thing, though–that’d be really frustrating.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm Not specifically exempt vs non-exempt, but yeah– the larger organizations I’ve worked for have offered better benefits to the higher up staff, who by coincidence are primarily exempt.
Sabrina* February 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm I work for an insurance company on the group benefits side, and I would say it’s not uncommon. I think most of our clients don’t do that and I see a lot changing over to one “class” all the time. But not all of them. Sometimes it’s changed up by job type, sometimes it’s location, or even years of service.
ChandraNH* February 20, 2015 at 2:28 pm Yep, it’s pretty normal. When employers offer benefits (non-required such as WC) they can offer different benefits through the use of carve-outs, which specify that they treat all people in a specific group, the same, yet they can treat each group differently. Example of groups for carve-outs: exempt vs non-exempt, hourly vs salaries, full-time vs part-time, employees at location 1 vs employees at location 2, employees covered under a bargaining agreement vs employees not covered under a bargaining agreement, management vs non-management.
changing my name for this* February 20, 2015 at 8:40 pm I work at a university too. I wish they would give out tickets to athletic events to staff, because then you would at least give the people who work the concession stands for various high school fund raisers a decent shot at getting a nicer sum of money for showing up. We are not known as a school that does well in athletics and this year, one of our teams is worse than usual. They had a game last night where only ten people showed up to buy tickets. I almost died of embarrassment when the announcer did his usual overly loud and hearty “Come on fans, let’s hear you make some noise for the t-shirt toss!”. They, again, had more t-shirts than fans. When your attendance is this bad, just take the time to go up to each and every fan and personally thank them for coming and hand them a t-shirt. Our policy is to just give the retirees free tickets because they had it in their contracts from long ago that this would be a benefit they would get when they retired. It’s free for the students but I think I only saw about 15 students show up last night. It’s just so weird to go to the games. They have taken so many benefits and cut back so much at our university it is like walking into a pool of sadness and I think it would cost so very little to hand out tickets to the employees to these little attended events and it would get a lot of mileage in employee attitude but it just isn’t done. They could even have special employee pricing but no dice.
changing my name for this* February 20, 2015 at 8:41 pm Oh – and when I say staff, it means everyone of the payroll and board. The board of regents once came to a game and they all had to pay to get in. So it’s not a caste system here at all, unless you count the retirees in some odd way.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 9:06 pm Wow. Is that for football? Don’t the players have friends and family that would show up for a game? To be clear, as non-exempt staff we can’t even purchase tickets. Granted we are a top 5 football team but for some of the staff to not even be able to purchase tickets that is insane. If you have tons of money and belong to the booster club you can get tickets even if you have never had any association with the university at all.
changing my name for this* February 21, 2015 at 9:16 pm Basketball – although football is low attendance as well. Friends and family occasionally show up.
changing my name for this* February 21, 2015 at 9:33 pm Also, there was a news organization that once had a question of the day sort of thing where people had to name the worst college for sports overall and we sort of lead off the conversation and kind of ended it as well.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 9:10 pm Thanks for all of the replies. I can understand using some benefits as a reward system, more vacation days, more flexibility, etc. However, to me even though it seems to be the norm, not offering matching to the 403B and not offering tickets to the football games just seems a bit caste system to me also.
Ali* February 20, 2015 at 11:35 am I feel like I have a few questions today, but I posted this one last week and it got no feedback, so I’m trying again: Does anyone here work in marketing communications? I would like to transition out of my journalism-type job into a more marketing-based role. I feel I have several transferable skills: I wrote for some websites (although to be fair, that was articles and not marketing materials), I have a part-time job doing some social media work (I’ve worked with Pinterest, a little with Instagram but spend most of my time on Twitter and in social media management tools) and my full-time job requires that I collaborate with people, pay attention to detail and do some reports. I applied for a marketing job where the company recruiter felt that I had transferable skills, but of course, the hiring manager was holding out for a specific skill set/experience. (The job is still being posted, and it’s been about 3-4 months since I interviewed, but I digress.) So what should I do? Should I try to pick up a volunteer gig? Is there any way I can get some extra skills on my downtime by, say, playing with some software? I would go back to school if there weren’t such an overwhelming consensus against it for the field, but I had considered that as well. I’ve been searching for a new job for about eight months and hiring managers are so stuck on lack of experience even though they can see how I’m a good candidate in other areas. (I’ve been told this, so I am not just making up things about my own abilities.) I feel like I have some foundation, but I need to pull off the transition successfully somehow. I’m miserable in my full-time role, and once I leave that job, I have no desire to ever do that kind of work again.
ali* February 20, 2015 at 12:46 pm I used to work in marcomm, as a web developer/graphic designer. So I wasn’t doing the things that you are looking to do, but I did end up writing a lot of copy for brochures and even a couple of PRs. The skills I noticed that were hugely important to have were event planning & logistics (ie, best ways to ship all your marketing materials to a conference in California, etc), and basic marketing administration (being able to talk on the phone to vendors and contractors). In fact, in my company they had layoffs and eliminated everyone except the event planner and the marketing admin – they figured everything else could be handled by contractors managed by the admin. So maybe hooking up with a nonprofit for their annual gala or similar event might be useful? You can help with planning the event, but also take charge of marketing the event (from start to finish so you have an entire project you can point to), including the print marketing and the social media. Some orgs even have money to give people for this sort of thing, but I wouldn’t count on that.
AVP* February 20, 2015 at 4:33 pm My only knowledge of this come from a (not very close) friend who has a job doing this, but it seems like the online nexus of writing/journalism and marketing right now is in these sponsored posts / ad posts. They’re often written by someone on the ad side, not a writer for the site. There’s a specific term for this kind of thing that’s totally escaping my mind right now, but hopefully someone else can chime in with it…
LMW* February 20, 2015 at 4:54 pm I work in marketing communications, and transitioned from a similar type of role in publishing. I had go the contractor route…it was a one year contract to hire position that ended up morphing into a few other position over the next few years. And now I work in content marketing, which is a great fit for journalist-types. Both times it took months of searching before the stars aligned.
Kate* February 20, 2015 at 11:36 am I applied for a job recently that requested cover letters and resumes be sent to an e-mail address, something like jobposting123@gmail.com. The job is at a medium-sized church. I included the cover letter in the body of the e-mail (thanks for all of the help with that, Allison), and attached my resume as a PDF. It’s been about 3.5 weeks and I never even received a confirmation that they got my e-mail. Would it be out of line to e-mail the address again confirming they received everything? Or is it still too early? I know in the ad they said they were hoping to hire someone by April. If I do send a follow up, should I re-attach my resume and include my cover letter again? Thanks!
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:12 pm Lots of places don’t confirm receipt, so I wouldn’t email; I’d assume they’d gotten it and just wait for the process to play out.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 3:27 pm Or take it one step further and assume the process has played out, and you’ve been silently rejected. That way you can move on and it will be a happy surprise if they do end up calling you at some point.
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 2:08 pm I’m going to disagree with fposte, only because it’s possible for emails to be waylaid or sent to spam folders. I’d send a short note, with no attachments, just mentioning that you’d sent a cover letter and resume and asking if it had been received. That should not be offensive, and it’s only one email. It may prompt them to look for it in their spam folder. If they reply that they got it, good. If they don’t reply, then let it go. But if they reply that they didn’t get it, then you know to send it again.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm It’s possible it got spam filtered, but there is a risk to following up. I know I’d be annoyed if I got a “just checking to see if you got my email” email.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:56 pm Though this is why employers should confirm–it minimizes people’s asking. (Or at least include the information that they don’t confirm, so applicants know.)
Snork Maiden* February 20, 2015 at 3:37 pm As someone with a work email address that’s been known to capriciously sort, I usually tell people to call when they are sending an important email so I know to expect it. I’ve had follow up emails go directly to spam, right next to their originals :(. Even Gmail is not immune – it’s been sending emails from the city to trash. This doesn’t always translate to job applications – I can imagine it being frustrating for the hiring manager to get dozens of calls saying “Didja get my email?” but it’s so frustrating not to know. I usually put delivery confirmation and read receipts on important things I send. They’re annoying, but at least I know it got there.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 11:36 am I have a second and final interview coming up next week. 2 questions (I’m in the US) 1. I’m meeting with the same person as before(who will be my boss) as well as the CFO(company has about 1500 employees). I’ve never done a second interview before. What differences should I expect in relation to the first interview? 2. The start date could be a problem(if they decide to hire me of course!). They want to hire someone soon and the process has moved fairly quickly(I got in on the end of the app. deadline and only applied for this job 2 weeks ago). In the initial phone screening, they asked me when I could start and I said’ 2-3 weeks after an offer and I give notice to my employer’. My sister’s wedding is coming up in about 12 weeks. The last 2 weeks of March is tricky- I will need to take 4 days off for things related to it, including 3 in a row at the end of the month for a non-refundable trip. For the actual wedding, I will only need 1 day off before. Ideally, it would probably be best to start at the beginning of April. Is this something I should offer up or should I present the info and let them decide the best thing to do? I don’t foresee needing to negotiate anything major(salary and benefits seem great). I’ve always been able to start right away after an offer so I don’t really know how to bring this up?
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 1:14 pm I think that the second meetings tend to be a bit more give and take. They tend to spend more time telling you about the company. It’s a good time to be watching for things that might be a problem later. Ex: “We work until it’s done.” I don’t do 24 hour work days. Tell them before you accept the offer about your time off needs.
Guava Cheese* February 20, 2015 at 11:38 am Do any of you have professional part-time or side jobs? I have my master’s degree, a great job, great benefits, etc. In short, I am a young professional, but until a promotion I’ve been working on comes through I would like to make more money (and yes, I budget and save quite a bit of money already but it’s all those extras in life that are expensive :) ). I’ve only briefly searched CL and it was kind of sketchy. Other than applying to new jobs, does anyone have suggestions? I’m too inexperienced to do consulting and I am not creative enough for Etsy, haha.
Brett* February 20, 2015 at 12:09 pm I’ve had as many as three side jobs at once. For my line of work, I am required to get my employer’s permission to work them. If you have a grad degree, you can teach at community colleges and other schools. This can actually be an interesting way to learn a lot yourself from the course prep. Startup companies are often looking for part-time expertise for a small amount of pay (so you could do a couple of hours a week and make a few thousand extra a year). This is basically consulting, but with a lower tolerance level on the amount of experience needed to do it.
Gwen* February 20, 2015 at 12:24 pm I’m a copywriter, and I do some freelance writing (and would like to do more). That’s not super helpful if your skills aren’t really transferable to freelance work!
Dasha* February 20, 2015 at 12:27 pm Not sure what your master’s degree is in, but I used to teach one night a week or one Saturday morning class at a local community college. The requirement is most always a master’s degree to teach there. It’s not a ton of money but it made my car payment for awhile and the various stories about the students are priceless, ha!
Guava Cheese* February 20, 2015 at 12:58 pm Thanks everyone! I have my MPH. There are a lot of community colleges where I live, so I’ll start there. Also, I hadn’t thought of start up companies. Great suggestion! Freelancing could be an option too. The department I work in is on fire in the news right now (yay science, truth, preventing eliminated diseases), so maybe writing health articles is in my future. Thanks again AAMers!
the_scientist* February 20, 2015 at 4:43 pm I’m a fellow young professional with an M.Sc Epi degree- so pretty similar to you, it sounds like! (and also not creative enough for Etsy). I guess it depends whether you want resume-building side gigs or just extra cash side gigs. If you want resume-building side gigs, you’re right that at this stage, consulting is out of the question. But what about research assistant work for any academic colleagues (i.e. literature searches, paper-writing, data analyses)? These are usually pretty flexible, can be done wherever/whenever (depending on your data) and pay decently well. Teaching at the community college level is also a great suggestion, but be warned that the prep work can be intense (and is often unpaid). Have you considered tutoring? Either freelancing or with an agency, this is again a flexible and often pretty well-paying gig (apparently boutique tutoring companies staffed by Ivy League grads are a big deal in large US cities). Technical writing might be another alternative. If you’re strictly looking for jobs to boost your bank account- think about any hobbies or activities you do that can be parlayed into a money-earning thing. I made money as a piano accompanist for music students as an undergrad, and I taught first aid courses on the weekends. Bartending, serving and nannying are probably not good options if you’ve already got a full-time gig, but what about pet or house sitting? Dog walking? Occasional babysitting? Anything you find on Craigslist is probably going to be kind of shady so I’d look first to the things you already do/enjoy.
anonymous educator* February 20, 2015 at 11:39 am Just got a job offer on Wednesday, accepted yesterday. Excited!
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 2:03 am Thanks. This has been after a long, hard search, and I think it’ll be a much better fit than the place I’m currently working at. The conversation with my current boss to give my two weeks’ notice was a bit awkward, but it’s hard not to be.
Cruciatus* February 20, 2015 at 11:39 am Chinese food is causing some hurt feelings today at work. Sigh. I have a group at work I eat Chinese food with every so often–we have to order out since we only get 30 minutes for lunch. This new, pushy coworker saw this and told me to tell her the next time we did it. I don’t like when people invite themselves to things but…I said I would. Fast forward a few weeks and today is Chinese day, but it’s also a short notice goodbye day to someone in the group and she asked earlier in the week that we just keep it to our usual group because ordering for so many is a pain (she had no idea this coworker took me aside asking me to invite her next time). So I haven’t said anything to anyone else, yet another coworker said “yay for Chinese tomorrow” to me in front of the pushy coworker and now she’s not saying much to me (which actually is OK with me but I don’t like the reasons why). I will probably not address anything and will let it go because I don’t care that much, but am I a jerk in this situation? The group is being a little exclusionary but not really against anyone in particular, just because this is the normal group and we’re saying goodbye to one of them. As I type this out I realize how stupid it all is! Sometimes you just need to see it in print!
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am I’m also a now that I walked through it I get it I just needed to say it out loud. I don’t see the big deal in adding on one person to a take-out order. Even if you don’t like them. If you went out and ate their this would be different.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 12:04 pm Maybe, but if it were me and I promised someone to include them next time, I might go to them and say “I know I said I’d include you next time, but this was a farewell lunch for Wakeen, and he asked that we keep it to these people for this one time.” After all, it’s not Cruciatus that was doing the ordering, so if the person doing the ordering said no, there’s not much more to be done other than stop doing things with this group if they are turning into a clique.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm Yeah, I’d say the same thing because coworker is going to get snitty if you don’t explain.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 2:35 pm That’s what I would do, with the one caveat that if everyone is on the same team and the new coworker is the only one on that team who would be excluded, then you need to include that person. I had to attend a farewell lunch for someone after my first week at a new job and while it was a little weird, it would’ve been weirder if the other 8 people on my team went while I sat at the office by myself.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am As the new co-worker I’d feel pretty crappy if I experienced this. You could have sent her an email if you didn’t want to say it face to face “We’re getting Chinese tomorrow but as it’s Jane’s goodbye lunch we aren’t including anyone else in the order, if you want to get your own we normally go to Golden Palace, here’s their number, delivery normally takes 30 minutes, more on a Friday”
Cruciatus* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm Well crap. Thing is, she is not lonely at lunch. She now seems to know the entire building better than I do (she’s very social) and I’ve been here nearly 4 years. She’s been here maybe 2 months and already has a lot of work friends and people she eats with daily. Just not my work friends (though they are all friendly enough together). It was just about the Chinese food. I so feel bad, but as Cosmic Avenger said, I wasn’t doing the ordering and none of this was done to specifically exclude her (as the rest of the group didn’t know she wanted in). Maybe if it comes up I’ll say something about how I was sorry I didn’t include her but it was so-and-so’s goodbye and she asked that it remain small.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:17 pm Yeah, I think it was exclusionary enough, since she asked, that it’s probably best to address it. I’d keep it low-key and say that you absolutely have it on the radar to let her know when you guys had another casual lunch; this one was a special occasion, so it wasn’t the usual thing, but when you do the usual thing again she’ll be alerted.
foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife* February 21, 2015 at 1:57 am This is just me, but it would depend on just how rude and pushy she was when she “old [you] to tell her the next time we did it.” If she was nice about it, and asked (versus “told”) about being included, I might say something to her like “Sorry. I know you asked about Chinese, but the other day it just got weird.” If she was rude, I’d just forget about it. She might be miffed, but I think it’s best that she not get into the habit of thinking you’ll obey her orders without question. “Special delivery huh… Let me guess… Chinese? Thai, maybe? Ahh, I’ve got it. Italian food.”
Gwen* February 20, 2015 at 12:33 pm I don’t really think “I’d also like to order Chinese food” is really inviting yourself to something? Especially in a work environment, asking to get in on a group order or even tagging along to lunch is pretty common in my experience. I get that in this situation there was a reason why you didn’t want to add someone new to the group but yeah, if I was that coworker and you’d told me you would tell me then blew me off, I would think you were a jerk.
Brett* February 20, 2015 at 11:40 am So, this week I had a conference at a site 3 hours away. I was running an all-day pre-conference event on Monday, with a presentation on Wednesday. As I am getting into the car on Sunday, I get an email that the instructor for an 8-hr short course on Tuesday (that is 1/3rd of the revenue for the conference) has an emergency and the organizers want me to sub for him. I write back that I need his course materials to do it. 3 hours later I get to the conference site and find out that we are not getting a copy of the materials, and I am the only available instructor or else the short course gets cancelled and they lose a bunch of money, hurting the statewide professional organization. Turns out, I can put together an 8-hr short course in less than 36 hours if I don’t sleep more than 2 hours (I did teach a semester long class on the topic, so I consolidated from the material I used for that class). But by the time I drove home yesterday I was unbelievably exhausted.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 11:55 am But that nap or night’s sleep feels SO good after a stint like that. Yay for being nimble!!
Brett* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm Worst part was that I was enrolled in a short course on Thursday, with an instructor I know personally. I could barely stay awake, but since I was the only one in class he personally knew, he kept calling on me with questions! At least it kept me engaged in the class, but if I had not already checked out of the hotel I think I was ready to just go take a nap.
Pretend Scientist* February 20, 2015 at 9:18 pm Awesome on getting it done, but how hard was it for the intended instructor (or management) to send you the items?
Brett* February 22, 2015 at 11:31 am I don’t know the circumstances of the emergency, but I was under the impression that it involved surgery. None of the conference organizers would tell anyone, even when asked (I did not ask, since I did not know him). It might have been legitimately impossible for him to get us materials.
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 11:41 am Just had a phone interview that rubbed me the wrong way. It was with a recruiter looking to fill a role for a client. It was great until salary came up. I said I could not and would not disclose my salary. She pushed it so I said I had a non-disclosure agreement since it’s always gotten them off my back in the past. She told me in her 20 years of recruiting she has never heard of a person unable to disclose their salary. She then tried to work around it by asking how much I made at my old job and what was my increase when I took this job. I told her I was a little uncomfortable and would need to think it over. She asked if I had a range I was looking for which I gladly disclosed. When I asked if there was a target the company had in mind, she said no because the role varies greatly between people. She then urged me to reconsider not disclosing because even though it has never been a problem in the past, she doesn’t want me to miss out on opportunities because I choose not to. The only thing I would be comfortable saying is my range is more than I make now. She told me she needs to know so they can get a feel of how my duties have progressed. I get the feeling they are going to take my current salary into consideration when choosing a salary. She said she can attempt to submit me without a salary but they might not hire me. The job has great perks but I’m thinking of taking the chance. Thoughts?
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 12:09 pm I agree that it shouldn’t be a big deal to not give it, but I’d still give it when pressed, but then restate your requirements for the new role. It sounds like you’re currently employed, so you can afford to not be lowballed. It sucks when they do this, because they often are relying on people being desperate for a job, and IMO those kinds of hirings deserve to have the person jump ship for a better offer. Can I ask…have you actually signed an NDA with respect to your salary?
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 12:32 pm Not exactly. I did sign a confidentiality agreement that has a bunch of jargon in it that salary could fall under. The way my past job was set up was based on salary + a bonus. Technically my salary here is higher than my past but I still made a good amount more total at my past job. I think I’d be comfortable telling her my past salary + base was X and my current salary is more than my past but that seems kind of deceptive since technically I’m telling the truth but it might come off sounding like I’m making more in my job than I am. Not sure what is the right move considering she was kind of doing the same to me, trying to find out a number without me actually saying one.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:16 pm Recruiter sounds kind of snippy, not sure of the importance of salary history in this economy, many people take on more responsibility with only tiny raises now…. And I feel your pain about the salary shenanigans. There is the “perfect job,” as in the description is written for my little niche, but I refuse to apply because it pays $10K-$20K less than it should. 1/2 of the postings for said company on glassdoor say that they underpay. Very annoying to feel like you miss out on a job you’d enjoy for an amount as “small” as $10K-$20K when such business count $ in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and millions
Sadsack* February 20, 2015 at 1:33 pm Yeah, don’t do it. I once had a recruiter really working me over for it. I said that I knwo for a fact that I am paid under market for my area, plus the area fo the new job has higher rates than my area, so I wouldn’t want the hiring company to make an offer based on my current salary. He assured me that they would not. I was new to the whole recruiting thing so I finally gave in and told him my current salary. His response was, “Oh, no, they won’t go for that. They wouldn’t go from what you are making to the range for this position. Um, hello? So much for not basing their offer to me on my current salary.
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 2:21 pm And as someone who took a significant salary drop with current job (after unemployment), my response would be “Ok, but I won’t consider the job at less than $X, since I pointed out I was underpaid. I’m not interested in moving to another underpaid position.”
Just me* February 20, 2015 at 10:15 pm I was seriously underpaid and went the same route. The recruiter was awesome, though. The OPs seems to be pretty pathetic. If she’s being difficult, I’d look for a different recruiter.
Theresa* February 20, 2015 at 11:42 am I’m attending a conference that’s “resort casual.” Typically, the majority of the people in this industry are men, so it’s harder to gauge appropriate dress for women. Anyone have any thoughts? (Normally, I’d just do professional but casual dresses, but it’s supposed to be kind of cold, so…)
Sparrow* February 20, 2015 at 1:02 pm Corporette did a post on this recently. Search for “corporette resort casual” and it should come up.
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:43 am How do you feel about the importance of a candidate’s minority status when applying to positions with “diversity” in the title? Should a person applying to be a “Diversity Manager” be part of a racial minority? Are other types of diversity equally valid for such a role? Is the same true of roles like “Accessibility Coordinator”? There have been a few roles in my area that have come up recently with similar job titles and descriptions. While I’ve made some impact locally on diversity initiatives, I’m hesitant to apply to these roles because I’m white, and to be honest I personally would be much happier to see people of color in that position, advocating for their own needs, as opposed to some outsider trying to speak for them. Is that silly? If I were to apply to these roles, should I address my own lack of diversity in my cover letter, or is that a topic best left untouched?
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am I would not say anything about your own demographics in your cover letter. For one thing, they’re not actually allowed to use that information in a hiring decision.
nona* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am I think talking about your relevant experience would cover your “lack of diversity.” FWIW, I’ve known straight/cisgender people who did great work in LGBT organizations, etc.
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 11:56 am Yeah, I know a lot of roles in diversity-centric organizations are not filled by people of that specific demographic. But it always makes me a little uncomfortable… especially in this case, where the role would really be the “face” of diversity for the organization.
Calla* February 20, 2015 at 11:57 am My opinion (as a white lesbian) is two parts: – if it’s a role specific to a certain minority in a larger general company, that person should probably be that specific minority; i.e. the person who leads the company’s Professional Women’s Group should be a woman or the person who does the AAPI Community Outreach should be AAPI. BUT if we’re talking a generalized Diversity Manager, and it’s for monitoring EEO compliance or outreach to ANY minority group, be it sex, gender, race, religion, etc, I think you are well within rights to apply. – If we are looking at organizations that specifically serve/cater to those groups, the *leadership* should be that group. So like at GLAD or the NAACP or something for Latin@ community health services, I don’t care if the receptionist is straight/white and I doubt anyone else will, but the President or Chairwoman or what-have-you of the org should have some personal experience there. So no, not silly! If you do decide to apply, I don’t think it’s something you should mention in the cover letter… they’ll figure it out if you interview, and in that interview you can talk about why it matters to you (and any reason you have to identify with that).
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm That actually makes a lot of sense. These would be more general roles, so it wouldn’t be quite as awkward (like it would if I was the Latin@ Outreach Coordinator or something). You have a great point about the leadership aspect, too. Thanks!
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm This! When I was job hunting, I figured out the line for the types of jobs I was applying for. If it referenced that the person should be a “peer” of some kind, then that was your signal to not bother applying unless you fit the description. But be prepared to not get these types of jobs because (consciously or not) they want a candidate with visible diverse traits.
Swedish Tekanna* February 20, 2015 at 12:22 pm It would be kind ironic if skin colour made someone unsuitable for a diversity role. Besides, your skin colour/racial origin is only one protected characteristic and a diversity manager (or similar) should also be involved in age, disability, etc.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:25 pm It depends on what the goal of the org/company is. If they’ve created this role specifically because they’ve realized they need to address racial diversity in their hiring/work/etc. then it makes perfect sense for that person to be of color.
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 1:54 pm “… a diversity manager (or similar) should also be involved in age, disability, etc.” See, that’s what I was wondering. Obviously, when I read the title of ‘diversity manager’ my brain first went to racial diversity, since that has been my primary focus. But nothing in the job description mentioned if there were specific types of diversity that would be focused on. I’m visibly disabled (wheelchair user), so that might suffice as a visible aspect if it was a general role, but if the main goal is address racial diversity (as Treena Kravm mentions above), then it might not be quite the same.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 4:58 pm With a visible disability (diversity), I would have -10 qualms about applying. Yes, they may be focusing on race, or religion or something, but that’s just one possibility I suggested for preferring a person of color. They’re most likely going to want someone who has a background in this kind of work (which you do!) and who doesn’t scream “privileged in every visible way!” (which you don’t!). Go for it!
Now, I want you to tell me everything you know about Italian food* February 21, 2015 at 2:10 am This reminds me of the question the other day about whether or not being a parent is relevant to getting a job at a parenting magazine. If the Diversity Manager is a straight, male member of a racial minority, does that imply that the company doesn’t have any commitment to gender or LGBT issues? My personal feeling is that choosing a Diversity Manager on the basis of their race or gender or sexuality is part of the problem that Diversity Managers are supposed to be trying to fix.
Rita* February 20, 2015 at 11:44 am I’m exhibiting at my first conference next week and I’m super nervous. Mostly because it’s my first one and I don’t know what to expect. I’ll be with two senior level employees (I’m director level), who have been to tons of conferences, so that helps. Any advice going into this?
OhNo* February 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm Give yourself some time to prepare beforehand, especially if you’re nervous the day of. Don’t try to attend a presentation/session right before yours so you have to rush to your presentation and don’t have time to set up properly. Get there as early as you can, make sure everything is set up and ready to go, double check your notes/presentation/displays… and then relax! Take a few seconds to sip some tea or something before you start. Good luck! I bet you’ll do great. :)
EmilyG* February 21, 2015 at 12:46 am I attend a lot of conferences, as an exhibit visitor and not an exhibitor, but I find them surprisingly tiring/overwhelming if you aren’t prepared to manage that feeling. I try to make sure that I have a pre or post lunch break, away from other people, and also a break between work stuff and any dinners. I’m an introvert and that’s a big reason why, but more extroverted people I know experience the same thing, they just stay out way longer than me at night. I seek out healthier food outside the venue sometimes, and maybe use a break to go to the hotel gym. In short, you’ll be busy, but take a little time to be yourself and be a human.
De Minimis* February 20, 2015 at 11:45 am We are on pins and needles still waiting to hear if my wife will get a job with her former employer. Kind of hoping she won’t at this point, but it’s too good an opportunity for her to pass up if she does. Can’t remember if I mentioned it, but a job came up a while back with an agency that is in a nearby town, I applied for it but haven’t heard anything and according to USAJobs they have yet to even look at or evaluation my application [didn’t get any kind of Notice of Results which is the initial evaluation where they look to see if you’re qualified.] The hiring timeline could be slower, or this agency could do things different than mine–from my experience it seems like different agencies and even different locations really vary in how they use USAJobs once an application is received. Have seen a few other opportunities out of the area, and I will probably apply to those once I know for sure what’s going to happen with my wife’s job opportunity. Would really like to hear something today, just to get it over with. The longer it goes on, the more I’m inclined to think they decided to pass on her, but just want to know! I’m doing okay at my current job still, but am really getting tired of the commute and just the feeling that I’m not going to get any further kind of professional development in this job.
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am I just hired a new admin assistant about a month and a half ago. I think I mentioned this before. She has very limited work experience, which I knew going in, and so I was prepared to have to train her. However, I’m having a huge problem getting her to follow instructions on basic tasks. There are two issues: 1, somebody asks her to do a task, and explains that the steps are A, B, and C. She turns the completed work in, but she’s done A, C, and D instead. I talked to her about following instructions properly, and there was some improvement. Now, she usually does A, B, C, and D. Which is still a gigantic problem. Sometimes she’s not meant to do step D. Sometimes what she assumes is Step D is wildly not what is wanted (her office instincts are incredibly poor). Sometimes Step D is the next step, but she has to re-do it because she still did parts of B and C wrong and we needed to check the work before she moved on. 2, massive attitude related to corrections about the above. When people tell her not to move on to her proposed step D, she is visibly annoyed, and often argues with them, or tells them that their concerns don’t matter because they don’t bother her (!? and by people, we’re talking the top executives in the firm, not Suzie the junior assistant chocolate tea pot designer). If they try to add extra explanation, she makes little hand motions that make it seem like the person is verbally attacking her. I can almost hear her saying “woah, calm down.” But the people are never doing anything other than calmly explaining why she needs to follow their instructions. When I first discussed following directions better with her it was in the context of a specific task where she skipped step B, moved on to step D and potentially opened up herself, the firm, and a director to legal issues. Now, every time she does a task, she makes snarky comments about litigation (even when there is no chance of a legal issue with the task). “Oh, I wouldn’t want this minor problem with the address to get litigious!” I’ve tried giving her tasks broken down by bullet point in emails, asking her to take notes on what she’s supposed to do, and to come to me with projects before moving on to the next step. Even still, this is going on. How should I start dealing with this more proactively, especially the attitude? It’s hard to have a conversation with somebody about a perceived bad air hanging over a conversation, or a “joke” that feels like a dig. Overall, I don’t want to fire her, as she’s capable of doing most of the rote support work, and she *should* be able to handle following instructions. But this is such a problem that she’s not trusted to do any of the larger tasks it was hoped she could take over, and one of the executives has asked if it might be a good idea to consider letting her go in hopes that somebody else will.
Anastasia Beaverhausen* February 20, 2015 at 11:50 am Generally I’d expect a new hire to have a learning period – it’s the defensiveness and the snark that’s the real problem here. I would not want to work with this person. Was there a probation period?
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am I have to agree with Anastasia here. If she was doing it thinking that she was taking an extra incentive that would be one thing. However, you told her specifically not to and she still does. You can correct actions (most of the time) but there is very little one can do to correct attitudes. I don’t think her attitude will ever change. I think it is time to seriously consider if she is worth keeping on as an employee.
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am Yeah, it’s not surprising to me at all that she’s needed a lot of coaching, or that she’s made a lot of mistakes. If she were doing the tasks as assigned, but just making a lot of mistakes, it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. The problem is definitely the attitude, coupled with the fact that she keeps overstepping. I think the two are likely connected. She’s over-confident for no deserved reason, so she reacts badly when she’s called on her mistakes. There wasn’t an official probation period, but she hasn’t hit ninety days yet, so if we’re going to drop her, the decision would probably be made within the next few weeks.
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 12:18 pm I mean, legally it doesn’t matter at all. The issues you’ve described are perfectly understandable reasons to fire someone, within 90 days or an official probation period or not.
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm In our state, she won’t be eligible for unemployment benefits if she hasn’t worked here for 90 days. Of course, she also will likely not be eligible if she’s terminated for cause. But the firm was once upon a time sued by a former employee who was fired for misconduct, so it’s gun-shy about unemployment.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:17 pm Honestly, I would fire her. But have you tried specifically telling her that this job has a bigger learning curve than many jobs? And that mistakes are expected? She may be under a different impression and that can be amping up her attitude.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am Are you having weekly one on ones with her? I think that’s probably a good way to start because you use it as a way to find out what she’s doing/how she’s finding the job and also provide feedback.
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm That’s not something I’m doing yet. She works within site of my desk (we have a semi-open office, so my “office” has half walls and no door [it makes it fun to discuss payroll and HR issues, but that’s a different issue!]) so I’m constantly checking in with her. But something more structured is a good idea.
some1* February 20, 2015 at 12:39 pm Okay, well, if a top exec has suggested letting her go, you owe it to her to sit her down and have a frank discussion about her attitude and let her know if she keeps being snotty and defensive with people her job is on the line.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm Yep. It’s time to give her a clear and explicit warning that she could be jeopardizing her job. And really, I’d be prepared to let her go, and soon– what you describe isn’t the hallmark of an employee who’s just inexperienced but will learn; this sounds like someone really unlikely to end up being great with the amount of time you can reasonably invest in her.
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 2:31 pm I agree. Writing all of this out has made me realize that the attitude is the real issue, not the performance. I had discounted the “maybe we should fire her” suggestion from the exec before because he was reacting mostly to a single instance, and it was more of his making than hers, dumping a gigantic project on her at the last minute, and then being angry when it didn’t work out perfectly. But clearly the attitude issues are not likely to be fixed without a lot of intervention, and can’t be blamed on deadlines or inexperience.
Darth Admin* February 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm ^This. But before you have that conversation, I’d also think long and hard about whether this is a problem you want to take on for the long haul first. IME attitude problems are some of the hardest to fix, and it’s not likely that this will be a “one and done” type conversation.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:21 pm What did her references say? I’m surprised that this behavior didn’t come out in them–it’s pretty pervasive. Basically, I think this is a mis-hire and that it’s time to part ways. She doesn’t want to change her behavior, she wants the company to change its mind about how she currently is.
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 1:44 pm Before she was here, she was in a leadership role in a college extra-curricular (think captain of the varsity volleyball team) and the assistant manager of a fast-food restaurant, and her only experience in a quasi-office experience was a few months temping. She did an English degree (recent grad), and is clearly intelligent, a good writer, etc. There was no indication from that that she would have problems in a professional role, and her former manager at the restaurant was very positive about her. But, then, this “I’m going to figure out what to do next” strategy is probably useful in a kitchen or a sports team where what needs to happen next is more obvious and everything needs to happen quickly to avert crises.
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 1:46 pm “Overall, I don’t want to fire her, as she’s capable of doing most of the rote support work, and she *should* be able to handle following instructions.” I’m sure you could have a hundred applicants who can do the support work, follow instructions, and cheerfully accept feedback. You owe yourself and your company better than what you’re getting!
Sadsack* February 20, 2015 at 1:50 pm I cut myself off there. So, she is able to do the bare minimum, but you can’t trust her to always do it right, you do not expect to be able to give her anything higher level, and she has a terrible, combative attitude on top of it all. I ask again, why are you keeping her?
Serin* February 20, 2015 at 2:03 pm Seems like somewhere on the site, quite recently, Alison addressed “attitude problems.” The main thing I remember about it was that in addition to addressing work problems, the manager needed to spell out, “When someone gives you feedback, I need you to listen carefully and respond without defensiveness. This is part of your job.”
CherryScary* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am Any marketing/communications people out there do any kind of blog analytics? I want to get a regular report together on the blog I’m launching, and I’m trying to determine what metrics we should be watching. We’re not trying to sell products, just do outreach to internal employees and potential applicants. I’m using Google Analytics, but not sure what should be key metrics. There’s a lot of info!
Sarah Nicole* February 20, 2015 at 12:21 pm Look for indicators that folks are staying on your blog to really read it – time spent on pages, click through rates if there is another step. Do you have any links shared on social media or in emails that point to the blog? You can look at acquisitions to see where your blog visitors are coming from. If most of them are clicking through from Facebook, for example, you have a better idea about your audience. Also, look at your most popular posts. You can determine this by how many visits there are to the posts, how long visitors were on that page, and how many comments or other interactions you get on those. Blog measurement can be tough depending on how yours is set up. If a person can navigate to your blog and read the whole post without having to click into the page, your analytics may be less helpful as you would show many views to your blog page, but perhaps fewer to your actual individual post pages. Hope some of this helps!
CherryScary* February 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm This does! You have to click through to read all the post, so hopefully I can see what content people like. (So far everyone has been gravitating to our Welcome post that went up at launch.) I have a slight addiction to the real-time numbers, I enjoy seeing where the people viewing the blog are from!
Sarah Nicole* February 20, 2015 at 2:07 pm Yeah and it’s really helpful to know where your audience is getting the link to your blog. For example, if you post your blog to LinkedIn and never get any acquisitions from them, you know that something about your LinkedIn audience either doesn’t value your posts, or perhaps you need to post more relevant content for that crowd specifically – or you need to find out how much your LI posts are actually being seen. There’s so much you can get out of just knowing how long your readers spend on your site, where they come from, and what times of day they access your posts. Since you know everyone loves your Welcome post, try to figure out what it is about the tone, images, or content that people really love. Then you can either write a post like that once in a while or use elements from that one in your other posts.
Aardvark* February 20, 2015 at 11:47 am Any advice/resource recommendations for improving one’s written work communication? I’d like to be able to be the person who can dash off an intelligible, 1 paragraph email response in 5 minutes. I am not that person. I tend to be overly flowery in my first drafts, and I suck at the finer points of grammar. Because of that I spend way too much time editing my responses. I’d like to write: “this is why we make our white chocolate emulsions in the microwave, so we need to revise the pre-emulsion mixing process (please consult Wakeen before updating the mixing bowls) before we can change to making all ganache in the emulsifier” But my first draft is always something more like: “Well, we really want to use the emulsifier for all ganaches and other emulsions including white chocolate ones, but we just currently do these in the microwave just because that’s how Wakeen has always done it, which I don’t really know why we do but you could ask Wakeen about it. So we should probably consider doing something like revising some things before we do this.” Then it takes me 15 minutes to remove all the “likes” and “justs” and reformat it and make it make sense. I want the first example to become second nature. Writing isn’t a core function of my job, but I do have to write project updates and other normal work communications. I have fewer issues with longer-form reports because I have academic writing experience and I can usually allocate time to edit those. It’s the shorter summaries and arguments for say, what kind of chocolate teapot categorization fields we should add to the CRM system that I find challenging. Any ideas or resources would be very much appreciated. I’m willing to work on this systematically, but I don’t quite know where to start…
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am A lot of my job is communicating to executives, so this has become kind of second nature to me. Executives often don’t have much time to read beyond the first few lines. So what you want to do is think of the main message you want the reader to take away, and then convey it as briefly as possible. So, the bottom line is you need to revise the pre-emulsion mixing process. Say that first, then you can explain more: ” All – we need to revise the pre-emulsion mixing process before implementing a change to making all ganache in the emulsifier. The reasons are twofold : blah blah Please consult Wakeen before updating the mixing bowls” There, done. Bottom line goes first, then supporting information. It’s direct and gets the message across. Use bullet points if that helps.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 1:09 pm Agreed!! The bottom line up front and then supporting info after it has helped me tremendously in being more direct and succinct.
LBK* February 20, 2015 at 1:55 pm Another +1 for starting with the conclusion. My email process used to sound exactly like yours – basically write a stream of consciousness for 10 minutes, then spend 5 minutes cutting it down from 5 paragraphs to 2 sentences that were really all I needed to say in the first place. Making my point first is really helpful in making sure the only information that follows is really, truly necessary and relevant.
Aardvark* February 20, 2015 at 3:57 pm Thanks! I think it’s easier for me to write a report because I have a known outline for that. I didn’t think about creating one for emails and other standard communication. I’ll put those two steps (bottom line, supporting evidence) on a reference post-it next to my computer screen.
abby* February 21, 2015 at 12:02 pm Totally agree with putting the bottom line up front. I have even started adding an “action needed” line up front if I need someone to take action. Many people have responded very favorably to this.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:01 pm This may be something that will come with practice, so be patient. Can you get with a co-worker who is good at doing this and ask for their help? Can you talk to your boss about maybe some classes you can attend (great if the company pays for them but they may not)? Just have patience, I think with practice it may become second nature.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm This will probably come with experience but it looks to me like your first draft is a written version of what you would say out loud if this were a conversation. My suggestion would be to try creating bullet points. That might let your brain see those as smaller less wordy pieces. Then you can either remove the bullet points and create a sentence or just keep the bullet points until your brain starts with this method as the default.
Aardvark* February 20, 2015 at 4:04 pm Oh wow, I didn’t realize that was my process. I like the perspective of starting from a structure rather than from “brain thinks sideways-like why not matchy words”. I didn’t think about coming at this from a different direction. I tried fposte’s suggestion below (which seems really similar to the bullet points) and that definitely helped.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:26 pm A couple of possibilities: 1. Start by pretending it’s a tweet–seriously. Work within those limits. Right now the lack of structure is working against you. 2. Start by noting in nouns or noun clauses what people need to know. Microwave emulsification protocol Revision of process Looping in Wakeen Then embed them. Katie the Fed had a good example, but you might try a bullet-point approach, too, because that could give you structure that allows you to abandon some syntactic niceties.
Aardvark* February 20, 2015 at 3:49 pm I just tried listing the nouns in 3 emails, and it helped me stay on track. Thanks!
Anonicorn* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm You might want to pick up a copy of “The Dictionary of Concise Writing” by Robert Fiske. According to the cover it has “more than 10,000 alternatives to wordy phrases,” and I’ve used it as a reference for years. Eventually conciseness becomes almost second nature.
Anonicorn* February 20, 2015 at 1:51 pm http://www.amazon.com/The-Dictionary-Concise-Writing-Alternatives/dp/1933338121
LPBB* February 20, 2015 at 2:45 pm What a fantastic looking resource, I have to check that out later. Thanks!
nona* February 20, 2015 at 2:47 pm That sounds good! I can recommend “The Dictionary of Worthless Words” by Dave Dowling. Dowling pointed out a lot of redundant phrases that I had never noticed.
Aardvark* February 20, 2015 at 3:14 pm Thanks! I’ve added that to my to-buy list. It looks like an excellent resource!
nona* February 20, 2015 at 2:50 pm What helped me the most: 1. Time or length limits on writing. 2. No adverbs. 3. Fewer adjectives. When you’re thinking about using an adjective, try removing it from the sentence or replacing it with its opposite to see if it’s really needed. If you’re going to write something about “the huge skyscraper,” you could look at “the skyscraper” (fine) or “the tiny skyscraper” (what?) and see that you don’t need the adjective.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 4:08 pm Something that’s helped my writing enormously (although, alas, it’s also made it boring!) has been to write for a global audience. Most of the content I write gets localized for 22 different geographies and translated to 16 different languages. And translation is crazy expensive. So everything I write has to be clear (so my meaning won’t get lost in translation) and concise (so it won’t cost my company a fortune to translate). Can you pretend you’re writing for someone in China and getting charged by the word for translation? :)
Dino* February 20, 2015 at 11:48 am Hi all, an update: last week I posted about my frustration about not hearing about a job where I was a finalist. Well, I got the job! All the advice on this site was really helpful, and I used Alison’s resume review service, which I’m sure helped as well. So a big thank you to Alison, and all the other great commenters here.
AnonAcademic* February 20, 2015 at 11:49 am I have a question about having a stay at home spouse. I am finishing my Ph.D. this semester, after which my husband and I are moving from the east coast to the west for a job I’ve accepted. My husband got laid off from his nightmare job recently. He has been looking for short term contract work in our area but it’s been slower going than anticipated. I proposed that since we’re moving in under 5 months, he focus entirely on finding a west coast job and we can live off his unemployment + my stipend until we move (which is thankfully doable). He would run the household and coordinate the move and also work on professional development (certificates that will make him more competitive in his field). I think he’s amenable to the idea and for me, not having to worry about household stuff as much or move planning will REALLY help me focus on finishing this (godforsaken) Ph.D. However, I would like to have some sort of defined agreement in place about how household duties are split to avoid resentment or unfairness. I am fine with still doing light housekeeping, like removing my clutter from common areas, wiping down counter tops, and doing dishes. But I’m thinking that stuff like dusting, vacuuming, mopping, cooking, household errands like groceries, etc. should probably become his responsibility if he is going to be home full time. Has anyone else had a spouse shift from working to staying at home temporarily? How did you handle this stuff? What challenges did you face, as either the working spouse or the stay at home spouse?
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:08 pm I was in that exact situation a few years ago. I was the stay at home spouse. I can tell you that I would have been highly offended if my wife had proposed a “written agreement.” There is no harm in discussing it, and planning things out but I think writing up a “contract” is a very bad idea. If he doesn’t do what needs to be done, remind him. You can even remind him that is what the two of you agreed to. Also, please keep in mind that looking for a job by itself can amount to a full time job, especially if it is in a different location. Further, as a man who has been laid off, please realize that this is an *enormous* blow to a man’s ego. The man is used to being the breadwinner in the family (just by tradition, not that it is valid, but that is how the world perceives things). I consider myself very progressive and it still hit me very hard. I did end up getting another job but making substantially less than what I did before and less than my wife makes. It took a couple of years for this to sink in and for me to be okay with it. Again, losing a job is a *major* blow to a man’s ego. Watch for signs of depression. I could very easily happen and it did happen to me. I hope it doesn’t happen in your case.
Satsuma* February 20, 2015 at 12:15 pm Personally, I wouldn’t expect household chores to fall to one person just because they are taking temporary time off work. Especially given that your spouse is going to be job hunting and working on professional development certificates. It doesn’t sound like your work load is changing, so why do you suddenly get out of doing all the chores? I’d see it differently if your spouse was thinking of staying home permanently, or if you were taking on longer hours/more work responsibilities specifically so that you were earning enough for your spouse to stay home. On the other hand, as a fellow PhD, I would be very grateful if my partner were to help me out by lightening my load of chores while I work on writing up my work. But this would be a bonus, and something which I would be grateful for. Your suggestion of a ‘defined agreement’ seems to tip the balance into making these chores something that you expect of your spouse. It sounds like you will be cross if he doesn’t do your chores, rather than grateful for him helping you out.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 12:50 pm While it’s completely reasonable to think ahead and plan for potential problems, doing so in such an outwardly systematic way could come across as stiff or heavy-handed in such a close/intimate relationship (depending on the dynamics of that relationship). I think you’re trying to get at how to best manage expectations (who expects whom to do what) and communication. Unless your spouse is the type to go for a written agreement, you could focus on a verbal discussion instead. If you tend to be the sort of person who needs things written down to remember (rather than needing to do so to hold someone accountable should they fail, which is what a written agreement may come across as to some), why not make a chore chart? I have a spreadsheet that covers one month on my fridge. I have daily, multi-weekly, weekly, etc. tasks and dates set up in a grid. When I do something, I fill it in with a colored pen. If Boyfriend does it, he (or I) fill it in with his color. In our case, neither side is responsible for X, Y and Z, but those things need done in order to have clean dishes to eat from and clean clothes to wear so that’s why we do them. It feels more collaborative that way and it puts less pressure on one person to be in charge of the other. The key here is to come up with a system that works for you both.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 12:56 pm All of this was in response to the written agreement aspect, btw.
AnonAcademic* February 20, 2015 at 3:24 pm The chore chart suggestion is good. Something like that is what I meant by “defined agreement,” not some sort of legally binding contract. I’m really not that literal ;).
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 3:29 pm Ah, okay! It might seem silly, but it really does help to have a straight-forward way to track progress and a chore chart can do that without making one partner accountable to the other for all the chores (which might work for some but create a lot of tension for others). I guess my mind assumed you were being that literal because I tend to be way too literal myself :)
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 12:51 pm First he should just probably forget about local employment. The entire hiring process even for a short term contract could be longer than 5 months. Just make sure he keeps up his requirements to receive UI. If your job is an academic appointment, is there somebody at the university who helps with spousal employment? As for housework it totally depends on how both of you view housework. My husband and I both hate it and need to force ourselves to do it. If it falls too far away from roughly evenly split either of us will get mad. So saying, “stop looking for local work also by the way you should do more housework” would not go over very well. Defined agreement is bad phrase. I would maybe approach it, “From now until the move can we figure out how to split the household stuff up ?” It sounds a little (acknowledging I may be wrong) that you expect him to support you too much . He’s already moving across the country for your job. You really don’t want to push it. I say this as a spouse of someone who is finishing their PhD.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm I think the general idea of what you’re proposing is fine, but I can’t tell where you think this resentment or sense of unfairness is going to come from. Presumably him, because he’ll be doing all of the domestic things, but realistically, does housework take that much time (at least in comparison to job hunting, professional development, and moving)? Or are you going to resent him when he doesn’t do the housework up to your standards and you’re going to go back and re-do whatever it is, making you feel like he’s not holding up his end of the bargain? Or maybe something else for all I know. Moving is going to have your house turned upside down with packing in only 2-3 months, so I don’t think chores are going to be a big deal (unless you’re the type that can’t live in chaos) . I work about 30 hours/week and my husband usually works 60+hours/week. So I handle all our moves (every 1-3 years), plan 6-10 trips/year, cook dinner, and do a lot of the cleaning. But he definitely pitches in when it’s needed, and frequently does a load of dishes here and there while listening to the news. And there are somethings I just don’t do, so he vacuums and takes out the garbage. There are a couple of things that make this work. We are both so grateful every time the other person does something, and we express it out loud, each and every time. We also just don’t care if something doesn’t get done, and our house is usually “too messy” 70% of the time.
OtherAnon* February 20, 2015 at 2:24 pm I was coming to say the same as others above- a written agreement for housework feels a bit heavy handed. But asking him to forgo the short term job search to plan for the move strikes me as being more reasonable, but it would definitely need to be a discussion. If you two have only spoken about this arrangement in passing, why don’t you say something like “I’m hoping we can talk about this more in depth, and figure out a plan for our last few months on the east coast and the big move. Want to sit down after dinner and come up with some type of plan?” I’d then frame the conversation as about planning for the move, and then work backwards on all the steps you need to do before now and then. If your husband’s current short term job search comes up, why don’t you just say something like ‘it seems like it would make more sense for you to focus on West Coast jobs, and maybe you can take the lead on arranging the move’. Again, I wouldn’t bring up any formal contract about household duties, but if you REALLY want him to take on more of the household duties, maybe you can ask if his new schedule would permit taking on a larger burden on the household duties/errands? That’s about the least antagonistic way of bringing this up as my Friday brain can think of…
De Minimis* February 20, 2015 at 5:08 pm I was the stay at home spouse for nearly three years…. I was always supposed to help out more at home, about the only thing I really did well though was food shopping, taking the cars in for oil changes, taking dogs to vet appointments, things like that which were more time consuming but didn’t really require a lot of physical work. I would do some light cooking from time to time, but not a whole lot usually [at that time we tended to not do a lot of serious cooking for dinner anyway.] In our case, the division of labor tended to mostly remain the same, which wasn’t a good deal for my wife. If your husband is already pretty good to help with things, he will probably continue to do that, if he isn’t, it might be more of a challenge. But not everyone is as lazy as I am–though I think I might do better at it if we were faced with the same situation today.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 2:53 pm My job tends to ebb and flow. I do project-type work, so the closer we get to the launch date, the more hours I’m working. I also have traveled quite a bit in the last few years. My husband is great about picking up the slack when I’m working more hours or when I’m on the road. He’s great about doing stuff when I ask him to help out, like taking our daughter to swimming lessons, getting her through the bath, etc. I told him once that I really appreciate how supportive he is about this stuff, and he just said that we’re a team and that means sometimes he’s doing more when I can’t, and vice versa. I will say that if I need him to do something that I normally do, he gets annoyed with me if I ask at the last minute. He finishes work at 3:30, and often he’ll intend to do something — get a haircut, work in the yard, get started on his next project, etc — so if I ask that morning if he can do this or that, then his plans get derailed. I don’t think you need to put anything formal into place. I imagine that the last stages of getting a PhD are pretty frantic trying to get everything finished up. So if you frame it like that, and say, “Hey, if you could take on some of my usual duties around the house while I get through the end of this thing, it would really help me out,” then it shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
Snork Maiden* February 20, 2015 at 3:09 pm Where I would start is assessing the current load of housework and how it is currently balanced (and how you feel about the current situation – whether it is fair). That gives you a baseline to work from. Then I’d discuss how much time he expects to be doing his job search etc during the day and how much you are planning on doing w/r/t the Ph.D. It helps if you frame it in terms of fairness and agree on the difficulty/achievement metrics for each task (a “clean kitchen” can look very different to two different people; some people consider doing the laundry to involve folding and putting away, others just washing and then drying.) This sounds really clinical, but it doesn’t have to be. There’s also a lot of cultural pressure for the woman to take more responsibility for housework, if you’re in a hetero situation. I’m fortunate that my current partner is All About Fairness and we split the house along lines of preference (he cares more about the dishes, so he does the dishes; I clean the bathrooms because I’ve got a stronger stomach.) I can see for some couples a written agreement – it doesn’t have to be lawyer grade – can take the personal issues out of chore splitting as you can always refer to the document. One couple I know, one partner didn’t know just how much the other was doing until the 90% housework partner (they were both working full time) fell seriously ill from overwork. Yikes! He didn’t realize how much she was doing until it was too late. Now they have a more balanced situation but it took a serious discussion.
Anx* February 20, 2015 at 3:10 pm I was involuntarily unemployed and underemployed (I’m still only working part-time but I’m in school now). For a while I was living at home with my boyfriend (I almost wished we were married so I could feel more legit as a supporting homemaker). One issue that came for me a lot was that when my boyfriend came home, he wanted to come home and relax. Home = relax. To me, home became work. So I’d quietly resent him for kicking back immediately when he had a long day at work/school. It was incredibly difficult to keep applying to jobs that seemed to go nowhere, so I’d sometimes throw myself into housework. But since our budget was tight, no amount of cleaning could get the apartment looking nice (broken furniture, mismatched everything, no storage containers, hoarding items we may need later). I also knew it wasn’t very important to my boyfriend, so while he appreciated my efforts he didn’t really value what I was doing. And then I’d go back to applying for jobs. To be honest, I felt more overwhelmed and overworked then than I do now (I work 15 hours a week and take 24 credits at school, which I think is about equal to working a job). I wouldn’t have liked a written agreement that feels like a contract, but I very much would have liked to sit down and talk about expectations, schedules, divisions of labor, and write down a chore list.
MF* February 20, 2015 at 11:52 am About to start a job search, and am feeling a little in need of advice. I’ve been at my current job almost 2 years, and I’m definitely in need of a new challenge. I was promoted about 6 months ago, and there’s not a whole lot of room for more upward movement at my current job- maybe a few additional responsibilities, but no big change in my day to day duties or the type of work/level of work I’m doing. So, I’ve been planning to start a job hunt for the last few months, and have been keeping an eye on job postings, both in my city/area and in other places. I think I’m feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome, because there are a few jobs that sound perfect (although they are often a little more junior than I’d like, ideally), and a good number of jobs where I feel like I can do the majority of the requirements, but there are a couple of areas I feel relatively weak in. I know I should apply, but it feels daunting when I think of who else is applying, who probably has more experience in specific technical things I’m only a beginner at. I’m also hoping to transition a little from one area (private sector/political stuff) to another (non-profit), and it feels like that adds another layer of under-qualification. In some ways, I’m very comfortable at my job (I get excellent reviews, the clients I work for love me, my boss thinks very highly of me), which makes me reluctant to leave, but I also know that I want a less-demanding work schedule, a new work environment, new challenges, etc… I don’t know if I really have a question, but I would love any advice on psyching myself up for job hunting (getting back into doing more networking/reaching out to past contacts, which I dread a little), not letting myself underestimate my skills, etc… Also, I feel like my boss would be happy to help me with her contacts (and she has tons), but I also think that she’d really not want to lose me, and so I’m hesitant to even mention that I’m tentatively job hunting… any advice on that?
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 1:55 pm The two-year mark is a great time to start looking, especially if you’re interested in advancement that your current company can’t provide. You’ll have proven that you can be committed and that you have a track record for merit raises and promotions, but you won’t be dealing with feeling like you’re backtracking too far if you have to start on the bottom rung somewhere else (in order to eventually move up).
Emme* February 20, 2015 at 2:34 pm I wouldn’t discount your private sector/ political experience in the nonprofit job search. It obviously depends on what type of nonprofit you’re looking to get into, but private sector/ political experience would have been a great fit for my previous nonprofit advocacy organization (assuming there was an ideological fit, or rather, not an ideological conflict). Also, a nonprofit job isn’t guaranteed to give you easier hours- there is a crazy amount of variance in nonprofits, so it really really depends on what kind of nonprofit you’re looking to get into, and even then, on the individual nonprofit. Overall, it sounds like you’re in a good position- you have a good job which you can stay in for a while while you’re searching, and that gives you the freedom of waiting for a great opportunity. Don’t be discouraged! And one small piece of advice from someone who has read a number of job applications from people switching from for-profit to non profit: be sure to refer to the non profit as an organization, not a company. Its a pet peeve of mine, but I think it shows that an applicant isn’t aware of the difference or hasn’t taken the time to think it through.
MF* February 20, 2015 at 4:22 pm Thanks for the advice! I do feel a lot of freedom from having a job currently, so having the time to be picky is nice! I also think once I start actively applying, I’ll feel better about my skills/what I have to offer – just reading all the job listings makes it all start to feel very daunting!
Sherm* February 20, 2015 at 11:53 am Hey all! When starting a new job, how long do you think you should work there before going on a week-long vacation? I don’t want to run the risk of annoying anyone/making them think I’m not dedicated to the job, etc.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm I think this varies a lot. I’d ask around to find out what the norm is. In my office it would take you about 4 months to accumulate a week of time off, so that’s just about the earliest. Before that, I would expect to have been told during the hiring process that a vacation was planned.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:10 pm I agree completely. Unless it is something out of the ordinary, I would not take a week long vacation until after the probation period (if there is one) or about 6 months. Unless, of course, it was brought up during the hiring process.
CollegeAdmin* February 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm At my company, we’re not allowed to take any time off (sick time or vacation) for the first three months of employment.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:57 pm Out of curiosity, when you say “you are not allowed to take any time off” does that mean that you won’t get paid if you take time off or you will get fired, if you take time off. Do they seriously want you coming in with a bad case of the flu or worse?
CollegeAdmin* February 20, 2015 at 1:14 pm I’m not sure, to be honest. In my first three months, I managed to have a severe allergic reaction to something and get a strep throat-like illness. My managers both told me to take sick days, and I did – I just marked them as regular hours and marked down my sick time after I passed the probation period. I would guess unpaid, though – getting fired would seem unfair to me.
S* February 20, 2015 at 6:32 pm we have unlimited pto/vacation here, but i believe there’s something in our contracts about a limit on # of days taken off in the first 90 days?
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am Any advice on how to handle situations where you’re being held accountable for something that you don’t have responsibility for? My manager has delegated a few tasks/projects to me at the last minute without any guidance/direction. In one case, it hadn’t even been delegated – I just received something, forwarded it on, and found out in a reply that I’m now in charge of X. There are no regular meetings, I don’t see this person face-to-face, and, because some projects aren’t supposed to be handled by teapot designers, I can’t call the other teapot designers and say “hey, how do I do this?” Aside from not knowing her goals or vision for things (which can vary), I’m at a loss for how to do things because nobody else in my role does these things and I can’t just google how to do X at my specific organization – there are procedures and forms and processes to learn PLUS completing the actual project with a day’s notice. I’m being left to pull off projects that are barely defined, that I’ve never done and that I have a heck of a time figuring out at the last minute. I don’t know what to do.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm The obvious first step is to ask for guidance from your boss. If that is not feasible, then just keep the emails and keep documentation like crazy. Document (with date and time stamps) everything that has happened, all communications and what you did (basically document *everything*) just in case you need to defend yourself. Good luck!
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 12:32 pm Thank you. 99% of communication is via email. I am sad that it might be to that point, though. I do ask questions, but I’m wondering if it would be possible to shift from “Boss assigns X” (literally just that. Do X) to “I want X done by March 1st and I want it to cost X.” I can tell boss doesn’t have time for questions but at the same time I have no idea what they want and just because I don’t ask the questions doesn’t mean they don’t need answered…
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 1:02 pm You are welcome. My first suggestion is to find another job. If your boss assigns you something and can’t take the time to explain it to you, you need a new job. However, until then, before he sends you the next email, tell him that it would be beneficial to you and the company and would be more efficient, same you time, etc. if when he assigned you a new project to specify the deadline and a cost. If that doesn’t work, then find a new job. As I said, before, document *everything* to cover your-self.
Kyrielle* February 20, 2015 at 1:15 pm Also, in addition to other advice, you could ask your boss “is there a good resource in the company that I could contact for more information/procedures on this sort of project?” when you’re given a project that’s not something you or your peers would normally do. Maybe you’ll get a helpful contact to explain X, and failing that, the email shows you didn’t know how and were trying to find out how.
Dawn* February 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm Are you afraid of asking questions? It’s totally and completely reasonable within any working environment to expect that someone you assign something to should ask questions about their assignments! If you know your boss is busy, then maybe take a crack at figuring out what they’d want and then phrase it like “You asked me to do X. Based on what I know, I think that means you’re looking for A, B, and C within the scope of D, and adhering to the parameters L and M while eliminating Q and Z. Therefore, my first steps are going to be 1, 2, and 3, and then I will check in with you before proceeding.” This is basically “managing upwards” and is something I had to do ALL THE FREAKIN TIME at my last job. It’s kind of nerve wracking in the beginning because I always felt like I was bugging my bosses but they actually were super grateful for it because it meant they didn’t have to hand-hold me when they gave me an assignment, they could just trust I’d figure it out by myself and then give me a heads up before I dove in completely because I would send them an email beforehand telling them what I was going to do. If you’re unsure how this might work, just google “managing upwards” and find some good advice that way. It feels weird the first few times but I promise it gets easier with practice.
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 1:51 pm I think I am a little bit afraid to ask questions – if boss thought I should know, why didn’t boss say so? (which doesn’t make sense to me more some reason anyways) I’ve done a lot of research on managing upwards and I just haven’t gotten the hang of it yet I guess.
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 2:40 pm I hadn’t thought of it like that. I had just assumed that there was a minimum standard (like with the task where boss put me in charge of X, I thought I’d at least be notified I am now required to do X if not told a little bit about what X is). Maybe my expectations are off.
Observer* February 22, 2015 at 3:15 pm Just ask the questions you need answers to. Keep the simple and short: When does this need to be done by? What is the budget? Who can give me x, y or z materials? Do we already have an existing vendor for Piece A? If not, where can I find the procedures for identifying a vendor?
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 3:46 pm I JUST realized what the issue is. (From Alison’s post about a waiting for folder) “I go through it once or twice a week, and it’s fascinating to see how often I haven’t heard back about something and need to follow up on it, and which I otherwise might have forgotten about until the lack of answer popped up as a problem.” Many of these items are things I have no way of knowing about (upper level decisions that aren’t communicated to me, projects that are typically handled by the person in Boss’ role) and I’m finding out about them once they require action which allows for almost zero preparation and leads to a lot of scrambling. And these are not surprises to Boss, Boss just doesn’t think to tell me or doesn’t get around to things until they are very last minute. And I’m strongly convinced time is a huge factor here – Boss just doesn’t have the time to be proactive about everything Boss has to do. How do I ask about the things I don’t know to ask about so they don’t turn into a hot mess that I’m unequipped to clean up?
it happens* February 20, 2015 at 8:09 pm Even though you said your boss is crazy-busy and always stretching to meet a deadline, is there any way you can get boss to commit to a regular one-on-one to keep you in the loop on upcoming projects? You seem to be the go-to person for last minute requests (which suggests a lot of confidence in you) so you can approach it as you want to be able to meet these requests and knowing what’s in the pipeline (decisions made by higher-ups, changes in strategy/direction, etc.) will enable you to do so. (and take the advice above on finding out who will be able to help you in these projects…)
Katie* February 20, 2015 at 11:54 am I am just curious if anyone has tips on preparing a phD resume. Do the same general rules AAM describes apply? Any major changes? Does it depend on the jobs people apply for?
Another Ellie* February 20, 2015 at 12:06 pm What do you mean a PhD resume? You mean an academic CV? A resume for a PhD application? Or a resume for non-academic jobs after you’ve completed your PhD?
Kay* February 20, 2015 at 3:11 pm I should have specified, I’m editing a resume for a friend who has their phd but is applying for industry jobs. The part that stumps me is how much of an emphasis I should put on the publications section
Sherm* February 20, 2015 at 5:04 pm I would put the publications in, something like this: PUBLICATIONS Smith, J. and Jones, P. Melting point of chocolate teapots as a function of pressure. (2014) Journal of Teapots. Vol 14:453-457.
Sherm* February 20, 2015 at 12:08 pm I assume you mean you have the degree (or soon will) and are looking for jobs? I’d say the rules are the same. In the “Education” section of course you want to list your PhD, and think about all the skills you’ve learned while pursuing the degree, which can also go into your resume.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 12:48 pm The big thing that changes are dependent on the jobs you’re applying for. If the job requires/lists the PhD as a desirable quality, you list it. Usually, if it’s not a job that wants one, you leave it off.
Sherm* February 20, 2015 at 5:11 pm I would be careful about that. People in STEM at least have been fired because they omitted their PhDs in their resume (out of fear of appearing over-qualified for the position) and were later found out.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 5:49 pm Well if an application says you must include all education, then yea. But putting together your own resume? I doubt that could happen.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 12:57 pm The only difference is what type of job you’re applying for. If you’re applying for non-academic* jobs you just add it to your education section. If you’re applying for academic jobs I would visit “the professor is in.” It’s like AAM for academia. *By academic I mean professor or researcher.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:38 pm I would also think that your program should have resources devoted to helping you with this; I’m a little alarmed by the possibility that they don’t. But please expand so we can give you more specific advice–as noted, an academic CV is very different from a resume for a non-academic position.
Kay* February 20, 2015 at 3:16 pm I changed my name because there seem to be a lot of katies. Sorry I was hurrying so I didn’t add what I should have. The part im getting stumped on is how much emphasis is due the publications section and whether this changes formatting. I’m actually editing my friend’s resume who is graduating but looking to work in industry.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 9:18 am That’ll depend on what industry and how close it is to the doctoral field–if we’re talking a biology PhD applying to Abbott there’ll be interest in publications, for instance, but it it’s an English PhD applying to 3M that interest will be considerably less. I wouldn’t bother with journal articles if it’s closer to the second, which means unless there’s a snappy monograph or sexy-sounding book chapter I would probably cut the publications section entirely.
Calacademic* February 20, 2015 at 3:14 pm I have two completely separate documents, one a CV one a traditional resume depending on the job. Be aware that more and more non-academic places want something more like a CV. I’m in a STEM field, and I sent my list of publications to several industrial companies when I was actively applying. Usually they will indicate whether they want the CV or the resume.
SC in SC* February 21, 2015 at 7:20 am I think you’re on the right track with the sentiment that it depends on the position. Also, the same typical rules about resumes apply. You have to consider “real estate” versus information. If publishing is a plus for the role , the publications are on point for the job and there is room to include a list, then include it. If it’s not a critical part of the role or space is an issue (although probably not the case for a new PhD) you can always include a general statement under education or publications such as “Available upon request: over 10 publications in professional, peer reviewed journals such as Professional Teapot Design and The American Teapot Design Society.”
NewishAnon* February 20, 2015 at 11:57 am I have an interview coming up and I’m told I will be asked to draw a diagram or image (like a piechart or graph) to represent myself and what I bring to the table. How creative can I get with this? I’m thinking of drawing different flavored pie slices to represent different qualities and skills. For example: a basket weave slice to show excellent presentation skills, a mixed berry slice to show collaboration, etc? Or is that just crazy?
Sarah Nicole* February 20, 2015 at 12:25 pm I don’t think that’s crazy considering they;re asking you to draw a pie chart to talk about your skills. Jeez, why don’t they just ask you some questions? Weird.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 12:26 pm I would worry that assigning pie flavors to various characteristics would be distracting rather than helpful. If this were a pie magazine and the type of pie made sense for each trait, then maybe it’d be worth a shot, but in general I’d refrain from using literal pie as a metaphor in this context.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 1:14 pm Can you fashion it after an infographic? Can you actually do an infographic ahead of time? Memorize it kind of and then try to recreate in the interview?
NewishAnon* February 20, 2015 at 1:53 pm Hmm, this is an interesting idea. I probably could bring an infographic. They would probably like that.
NewishAnon* February 20, 2015 at 1:51 pm After reading the responses I think I agree with GOG11 that I shouldn’t do this. I’m thinking rather that I will do something like 3 overlapping circles that represent my core competencies and then use the overlapping parts to explain how they work together and show what I am all about. My understanding is that they are looking to see that I know who I am and what I bring to the table, in addition to being able to get up in front of a group and talk. It’s definitely a different exercise, but I personally don’t think it’s dumb. I think it’s making me think what I want to say about myself in a different way and it’s a hands on activity that gets you talking and moving in an interview.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 3:24 pm I didn’t think the pie chart wasn’t the way to go – just that tying in actual pie flavors/fillings might create too much clutter or be distracting. I hope I didn’t dissuade you too much – you should go with whatever format allows you to communicate your ideas the best (i.e., most clearly, concisely, and comfortably).
NewishAnon* February 20, 2015 at 3:54 pm Nope, you didn’t dissuade me from the pie chart, just the idea of pie flavors. It’s hard to know exactly what they are looking for with this, I just have to guess. They are forming a new team and want to make sure it is comprised of different types of people. I don’t think the goal with this particular exercise is to show how I’m the best candidate for the position (so to speak), but what specifically I bring to the table. What makes me…me, so that they can form a dynamic and differentiated team.
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 2:04 pm It certainly depends on what field you’re in. I’d never expect that in an engineering field. But, if I were doing this, I’d do a bar chart or graph showing how my skills had progressed over years or positions. You want to show how you’ve grown over the years to keep them thinking you’ll keep growing. I did actually send Alison a question once about how I wanted to present something on my resume, was it OK to use a table to represent the size and complexity of projects and the amount of source code reuse. I had some pretty awkward sentences that were all identical except for the numbers. She said it sounded OK.
SJ* February 20, 2015 at 11:58 am In yesterday’s work from home post, someone in the comments mentioned they’ll work two extra hours when they work form home, i.e. during their normal commute time. I don’t understand this at all. Commute time is not work time, it’s different for different people, and I certainly don’t get paid for it! Do people love working so much that they do this?
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 12:28 pm I am not sure I’m thinking of the same comment, but I think they meant work at home doing things around the house. They’re already up so why not get some around-the-house work done with what would normally be “lost” time?
CheeryO* February 20, 2015 at 1:17 pm I think the idea was that people will work longer hours but with some errands or a long lunch in the middle, in defense of the poster’s friend who goes on long walks on her work-from-home days.
The IT Manager* February 20, 2015 at 1:52 pm Yes! that is what I saw; although, first understood it as SJ did and was confused by that decision.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 1:53 pm This is one thing, for sure. The other I saw was working from home to try to get a project done without distractions, in which case occupying the same amount of your day but getting more time in on the project is a good bonus. If you have flex time I could see doing that so you can have a shorter day later in the week too, maybe?
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 2:16 pm I think it really depends. Commute time is not work time, but it’s not really leisure time, either, so working through it can result in 2 more hours of work without any impact to your non-work life. I don’t think this is a good practice in general, but if you have a lot of work to do, it’s an easy way to get more done.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 4:06 pm I don’t, because I’m hourly. I work the same amount of hours that I do when I’m in the office, but without a commute, I can start earlier (and end earlier).
Cruciatus* February 20, 2015 at 11:59 am Has anyone worked in a government (state or local) OCY office (Office of Children & Youth)? I’m applying to an administrative assistant job there but don’t really know what I could expect. I’m just a little nervous about the types of things I might see and how upsetting it might be on a daily basis. It does require getting FBI clearances and child abuse clearances so obviously there is potential for children to be around. Is the office the main hub of activity or are things dealt with more by case workers out in the field or through other agencies? If anyone has any information at all, beyond even what I just asked about, I’d appreciate it!
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm I’ve never worked in that specific office, but if you’re worried, it probably will be too much. You probably won’t see physically abused children to the point of it upsetting you, because if they’re that bad, they’ll be in the hospital. In general, kids are in the office only between placements, or after getting removed, so that’s a pretty traumatic time for youth. But hey, for all we know, this could be one of those (rare) awesome offices that has a playroom, etc. for kids to hang out in, not on a chair 5 feet from your desk for 4 hours. I would worry not about seeing the children, but more hearing what’s happened to them. Doing admin, you’ll see/hear all the horror stories, and you may even be a person someone vents to, or just be in an area where you’ll overhear a lot, even without being part of the conversation. You may be the point of contact for angry adults, etc. You have to decide for yourself if that’s the environment you want to work in, and the interview process should help with a lot of that.
AyBeeCee* February 20, 2015 at 12:01 pm Does anyone have any good tips for job hunting in a limited geographic area? A lot of job hunting advice I’ve come across seems to think that you’ll move for the Perfect Job that suits your skills down to the ground. I like where I live but unfortunately there are a limited number of large employers. Moving isn’t impossible but difficult enough that it’s a last option in my mind. I currently have a job but 1) I don’t see how I would advance at all without becoming a manager (I have zero desire to manage people) and 2) my company has made some moves over the past few months that rub me the wrong way and I basically don’t trust them any more.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 12:27 pm In my experience, if you can’t job search outside of your area, you have to take what you can get and not have high expectations. If your priority is living there over moving (and not all of us are in high powered jobs enough where moving is an option), then…well, you have to take the fish in your particular pool.
AyBeeCee* February 20, 2015 at 2:17 pm Thanks, that part I understand. I guess my question is more of how to find jobs that would suit me/my experience without having to wade through every single local job posting (or where I suit the job, whichever way you want to look at it). If I’m casting my net more broadly it’s difficult to come up with a specific search term or to cast out feelers to other companies about if they might be looking for someone to fill xyz position. Sorry I wasn’t more clear originally.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 4:35 pm Ah. Well, I haven’t figured out a solution to that problem either, unfortunately.
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 2:11 pm Networking. Try to find local groups that do what you do. Certainly in technical fields, there are User Groups for different types of software (.NET user group, etc) and Professional Societies (IEEE, ASME, SWE). They are good sources of networking. Do something with a local university, like volunteer with a club that relates to your career. It will allow you to at least know more people.
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm Yes, and keep in touch with people you’ve worked with before. I know people all over my area, and when they move to a new job, I learn about new companies that I didn’t realize even existed.
Laufey* February 20, 2015 at 12:05 pm Dear Job Applicants, As part of the recruiting team for a company that is currently hiring, please follow the directions we provide. We put them up for a reason. If we tell you send your cover letters, resumes, and writing sample to Sandor Celgane multiple times, Tywin Lannister will not be impressed to receive your materials in his inbox. You will make yourself stand out, but in all the wrong ways. And yes, we will laugh at your inability to follow directions, your typo-infested cover letter, and your poorly conceived resume (You enjoy ‘satirical and crime television’? How is that resume worthy?). This concludes this public service announcement.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 12:18 pm +1 I am fielding applications for an opening at my organization for the first time. I’m trying to refrain from deciding who will make it to the next round based on their ability (or lack thereof) to follow simple directions.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 1:05 pm Why are your trying to refrain from using the ability follow directions as a deciding factor? I think that is a very valid way to decide who moves on to the next level. However, if there is someone who is otherwise outstanding and misses one small item in the directions, I would not say that is a reason to exclude them from moving forward. There are exceptions to every rule.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 3:25 pm I’m simply the repository for the materials – I don’t have any say in the actual hiring process.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:37 pm Dear Prospective Employers: In your job ads, please post the salary range or something similar so that I don’t have to take a day off from work to find out that the job pays less than what I am making now. If an interview is scheduled at 3:00, don’t keep a prospective employee waiting until 4:00. If you say that an interview will last 1 hour, don’t schedule the person to meet with 10 different people, all wanting at least 15 minutes of time with the candidate. If your normal office attire is jeans and t-shirts and it is 90 degrees with 70 percent humidity, please let the candidate know that they can come in business casual and don’t have to wear a coat and tie (and they end up drenched in sweat). I realize that you have lives and deadlines also, but please don’t insist that a candidate come for an interview tomorrow at 9:00 AM when you call them at 5:10PM. Many people have to arrange time off from work and often that can’t be done on such a short notice. If at all possible, please try and schedule interviews after 5:00. For some people, taking off of work may mean not getting paid and that could be a major financial hardship for some people. If you can’t do it after 5:00, try and do it either first thing in the morning (maybe even at 7:00AM) or late in the afternoon (maybe at 3:00 or later) but definitely not at 11:00 or 1:00 (for an interview that will last only 1 hour). Some people can’t afford to take the entire day off and having to go to work in normal work attire, having to find a place to change into interview clothing, going to an interview, finding a place to change back into normal work attire, and then working the rest of the day can be very difficult for some people, especially when it is 90 degrees outside with 70% humidity. If for some reason you do have to do that, definitely don’t hold it against the candidate if they are dripping in sweat. Most of all though, never, never, NEVER, interview someone who you have no intention of hiring (even if you feel a courtesy interview is in order). This is a waste of the interviewees’ time and your time. Just a friendly suggestion.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:23 pm I wish they listened to your first point! As an Analyst I have a hard time picking which jobs to apply to because they can pay anywhere from $45K-$80K,ish in NYC, and all say 2-3 years of experience, even though a person cannot have had all of the experience listen in other parts of the ad by 2-3 years out of school. Thank God you can find salary ranges on glassdoor now, but it’s a huuugggeee waste of time having to keep doing research for every ad
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm Also, “please remember to reject candidates you have no interest in, and within a reasonable time frame.” I’m going through the list of jobs I’ve applied to and someone of them were applied to 2-5 months ago when I was still gainfully employed, so I had forgotten about them….but I never received rejection notices. Now some of the same (large) companies have jobs that look up my alley posted again. Do I apply? Am I still in the running for the other one? Hello, company, can I get some type of response!
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 2:00 am Yes, even an impersonal form email rejection is better than no rejection at all.
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 1:58 pm Dear applicant, Would you rather me stand up 10 minutes into the interview and tell you I’ve already decided you’re not right for this job? Even after you gave your boss little notice to take time off, got all dressed up, and stressed about getting here on time. And would you rather have an interview time slotted for tomorrow at 9am or give it up to someone else equally or more qualified who doesn’t mind the short notice?
Dang* February 20, 2015 at 7:13 pm I would feel relieved if the interviewer would do that rather than make me take two entire days off (without pay, I might add), interview with 12+ people, and then disappear completely.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 9:29 pm Answer to your first question: If you did not know before the interview that I was not the person for the job (if you did then why did you interview me), and in the first ten minutes of the interview you realized that I wasn’t the right person for the job, I would appreciate it if you did cut the interview short. Just make it look like that is all the interview was supposed to be. I would prefer that than wasting an hour or more of my time. Then send me a rejection letter in the mail. You can cut an interview short and still be diplomatic about it. Answer to your second question: If you are the type of employer who is not willing to work with their employees, who expects them to find childcare when you tell them that they have to work on Saturday at 5:00 on Friday, who tells them that they have to work the next day when they already have airline tickets, a company that sees President’s day, and MLK day equal to Christmas (see another posting on this site) then yes, I would prefer if you interviewed the other person. You do not sound like a company that I would want to work for. Having said, all of that, there have been times when I have worked late, came into work at a moment’s notice and cancelled other plans because my job needed me. However, that should be an exception rather than the rule and someone’s employment should not be on the line if they say “no.”
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 1:58 am Yes, and yes. I know you’re trying to be cheeky here, but honestly yes to both of these. 1. If, after 10 minutes of interviewing, you decide this person isn’t right, it means something happened in that 10 minutes that’s alarming. When the alarming thing happens, you can say, “You know, based on what you’re saying, it seems this may not be a good fit. I really appreciate you coming in, and I wish you the best on your search.” That said, why are you talking to that person in person if that’s going to happen? That’s what phone screens are for. You get the résumé and cover letter. If you like the candidate enough, you ask her for a phone interview. The phone interview can be 10-15 minutes or up to a half hour (if it goes well). Only then, after that 10 minutes, do you decide to bring the person in to interview in person. And then the likelihood she’ll flub it up significantly in 10 minutes is a lot lower. 2. Yes, absolutely fill the slot with someone else who can do it on short notice. And then slot other candidates in later slots. If the only kinds of people you can hire are those who can fill interview slots on short notice, you’ll end up losing out on a lot of good candidates. Your choice.
Mimi* February 20, 2015 at 7:41 pm Re: your rant about attention to detail….it’s Sandor Clegane, not Sandor Celgane.
Sally* February 20, 2015 at 12:08 pm I’m contemplating changing my contribution to my retirement fund. I’m currently contributing 9% and my company matches 6% (which is awesome, highest match I’ve ever had!). I got a 4% raise at my annual review this year so I’m debating upping my contribution to 10 or 11% — what do you guys think? Tuck more away now or just enjoy the extra cash? I’m still more than 30 years from retirement if that makes a difference.
CollegeAdmin* February 20, 2015 at 12:19 pm If you can, I’d say tuck it away! “Enjoying the extra cash” often equals lifestyle inflation, which can make it harder to cut down the road if it’s necessary. Plus, if you put away more now, it gains that much more interest, and you have that much more money when you retire. (You might even be able to retire early!)
Sally* February 20, 2015 at 12:26 pm Thanks! I’m thinking that if I up my contribution by 2% then I still get the satisfaction of seeing my paycheck grow while still saving :) Also, I used my Health Savings Account for the first time yesterday — feeling so adult!
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 12:34 pm I would take the excess of matched funds and put it in an IRA. So 6% in retirement fund, and 5-6% in an IRA. Diversifies your retirement and it’s still a tax incentive. In general, tuck away!
Sally* February 20, 2015 at 12:51 pm Okay, so I’m clearly not an expert in these things, but what’s the difference between the 401k and an IRA?
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 1:04 pm They’re similar, a 401k is employer sponsored while an IRA is an individual retirement account that can be set up by anyone (plus additional rules). I agree with Treena Kravm that I would take the excess of matched funds but I would look into a Roth IRA.
reader* February 20, 2015 at 1:06 pm Both are retirement vehicles but 401(k) is related to employment (replaced traditional pensions and investments are determined/managed by the company handling the 401(k)) and the IRA is managed by the taxpayer who can invest in almost anything they want using any adviser/investment company they want.
Sally* February 20, 2015 at 1:22 pm Thanks for the clarification! Do I need to be super savvy about financial markets to set up an IRA? Why would that be better than my org’s 401k? I can see the benefit of not needing to transfer money around when you change jobs, but are the returns significantly greater?
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:34 pm It’s not that the returns are greater, you’re just diversifying your investment, which is usually a safer bet. For those people in their 50’s in 2008/09, a lot had been dumping all their retirement money into one account. When the stocks in those accounts tanked, they watched their retirement disappear. With IRA’s you can invest in stocks/mutual funds etc., but you can also invest in anything else–even property! (with a lot of rules attached). Also, if you leave your job and don’t have another company retirement fund to rollover the funds to, your IRA will serve that purpose. In terms of needed savvy, I don’t know. I don’t feel financially savvy, but people tell me I’m more savvy than the average person. It will require some research if you want to find a higher-yielding investment.
Sally* February 20, 2015 at 1:46 pm Thanks so much for all the advice — I know what I’ll be spending this frigid weekend researching!
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:56 pm That’s misleading on a few fronts, though. First off, nobody’s retirement actually disappeared unless they yanked their money out, which you shouldn’t do in general and especially for a 401k pre-retirement, as there’s a substantial penalty. Stocks taking a downturn doesn’t mean anything disappears–it means your assets have less cash value, but they generally come back, and they have come back. The closer you are to retirement, the less of a drop you’re probably willing to weather, because you have less time to wait for the market to come back. The way you affect that isn’t by having multiple accounts but by the percentage of money you have in stock funds. Stock funds overall earn you more but are also more volatile, where bonds and other fixed income earn you less but won’t drop 25%-50% in a market dive, either. That’s where the old line about “age in bonds” comes in–the older you are, the lower the percentage you’re likely to want to have in stocks, because the less time you have to wait for the market to recover. That’s why target date funds are so helpful–they set the stock to bond allocation for you according to your age and grow more conservative as you approach retirement.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 3:08 pm Sorry, I was rushing and I should have been clearer, and I made a typo. I meant people in their 60’s, who were planning on retiring during those years, who all of a sudden had much less money to take out (when they were supposed to). In general, the real reason I’m not a huge fan of relying on an employer’s retirement fund for all of your retirement is because you don’t have all that much control over what the investment options are (there are lots of options to choose from, but you can’t invest in anything not on their list), and while target dates are great in theory, then you have 0 control over the types of stocks/bonds you’re investing in. You just pick a category and then let it go on it’s own. But hey, that might be attractive to a lot of people, and that’s why it’s there.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:23 pm Yeah, I understand how commenting shorthand can take over :-). It’s true that a lot of 401ks suck foul, foul things, but some of them don’t. I’m not sure what you mean about target date funds–they’re generally quite clear in being aggregations of other funds offered by that company (Vanguard’s is total stock, total international, total bond, and total international bond, for instance) and change isn’t hugely common; in that respect they’re more stable than managed funds whose assets change according to the decision of the manager. In general, it takes a really bad 401k to completely eradicate the advantage of tax deferral; some of them are out there, but mostly you’re still ahead even with the poor ones. However, it matters more that you put the stuff away, period. If somebody’s not comfortable with a 401k and is with taxable, put it in taxable–just put it somewhere.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:47 pm To clarify–you can actually be invested in the exact same assets in your IRA and 401k, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing as long as those assets are themselves diversified. The advantage of the IRA is that you have *much* more control over it and it’s much more flexible. Additionally, a Roth IRA allows the money to compound tax free, so it’s basically free money over the years if your tax bracket makes that advantageous. The rule of thumb on priorities is: money into your 401k to the match, then fund your IRA, then put money in the 401k over the match. You do not need to be a financial whiz kid to open an IRA. The easiest and cheapest and, generally, best way to do it is to open with a discount brokerage like Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab, etc., and choose a target date retirement fund with a low expense ratio (Vanguard’s will likely be cheapest). That should put you in thoroughly diversified index funds and at an asset allocation–stock-to-bond ratio–that’s set to be more conservative as you grow older, so you can just “set it and forget it.” It is also much more important that you put money away than you get it exactly right where you put it. But in general, avoiding fees and choosing low-expense funds (which you have more ability to do in an IRA) are the main goals, and if you can meet those and put money away you’ll be in good shape.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 2:09 pm I have my Roth through vanguard. I have been very satisfied with their service and performance. They list all of expense rations and fund returns in easy to read charts and graphs. I don’t support the target retirement funds completely though as they ignore what the market is doing and focus on the right ration. Since the OP says they are 30+ years away from retirement I wouldn’t invest even a little in bonds right now. Also make sure you have a decent emergency fund saved up.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:32 pm It’s because they ignore the markets that they’re such a great plan :-). Market-chasing is one of the worst things you can do for your investments–that’s why index funds beat managed funds, because index funds don’t *try* to beat the markets. (That’s also why men tend to invest less successfully than women–investing is one area where the risks of commission can be much greater.)
Natalie* February 20, 2015 at 3:28 pm @fposte – that gender this is so interesting. I had no idea. My brother loves investing, like people love sports or gambling. Which is fine, whatever – he’s not trying to make a living on it or investing his food money or whatever. Glad to know I’m not losing anything by sticking my 401K in a target date fund and calling it a day.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:35 pm They can still invest their money in an index fund. I think an S&P 500 index fund is wonderful (and is what I have for now) and looking at Vanguards returns it has outperformed the target retirement date returns along with having a lower expense ration. I just don’t think someone who is 30+ years from retirement should put money in bonds so young because as of right now bond don’t pay well, well go down as interest rates rise, and you don’t need the safety of bonds this far from retirement. I believe I started with a 2055 fund but the 10% that was in bonds like 10% of my money not making money.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:37 pm When I think of trying to beat the market I think of being very active such as going oil is down do this, the new apple product is coming out buy apple stock. I think the broader trend in bonds right now is acknowledging the market.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 9:28 am @BRR–of course the S&P index fund outperforms the target date fund; it’s supposed to in any period where the market’s generally up. The S&P index is all stocks, while the target date funds include bonds. You don’t buy bonds to make money; you buy bonds to minimize how much money you’ll lose when the market goes down. And that’s a “when,” not an “if.” I agree with you that younger people need to have less in bonds; whether they should have any or not depends a lot on individual risk tolerance. Even some young people can find it really harrowing when their assets drop 50% or in value, meaning their account is now worth considerably less than the money they put in, and stop contributing or put their money all in cash as a result when that’s the worst thing they can do. But if you sailed through 2008 without turning a hair at your account’s volatility and just kept contributing, 100% stocks might be fine for you. The goal is the allocation that lets you sleep well at night and keep investing; tweaks beyond that are much less important.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 10:10 am To be clear, I mean “of course the S&P outperforms the target date fund *recently*.” The market’s been up for six years. When you look at longer time frames, though, you can see that the S&P 500 (or even Total Stock Market, which tends to outperform S&P because of garnering much more small and mid-cap premium) often loses to balanced funds. That’s the whole thing about past performance not being a guarantee of future results; that’s why you don’t put your money in the S&P 500 because its returns *have been* so good (especially when, as noted, they’ve been exceeded by other fund classes). The fact that the S&P 500 has had several years of gains doesn’t mean that it isn’t going to tank for the next several. And if you look at the amazing Callan periodic table of investments, you can see that there’s nothing special about the S&P 500 when it comes to returns. (And when you’re talking Vanguard expense ratios, the difference between them in actual dollars is pretty negligible. On a $10k investment, for instance, you’re looking at $17 vs. $5. That’s a difference that it’s easy for performance to compensate for.)
it happens* February 20, 2015 at 6:54 pm There are also contribution and income limits on IRAs (regular and Roth.) The 2015 limit on 401(k) contributions is $18,000, IRA contributions are limited to $5,500. If you earn more than $61,000 (single, higher for married) the IRA contribution limit is reduced gradually, to zero at $71,000 annual income.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 9:31 am True on the limits, except that you’re describing the limits for the *Roth* IRA, not IRAs generally–you can contribute to a traditional IRA regardless of income. (Though contributions are only deductible at the low end of the income scale.) You can, however, *convert* a traditional IRA to a Roth IRA at any income level through what’s known as a backdoor Roth, so you can in fact have a Roth IRA even if your income exceeds the threshold.
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:25 pm I’d put the difference in your own Ameritrade account and buy the stocks you want….and then sell them when/if you need emergency $$$$, without the penalties associates with withdrawing from 401Ks
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 1:58 pm You can take contributions out of a Roth IRA without penalty, too, but you also get the benefit of the tax-advantaged space. It’s almost never better to skip the IRA and go straight to taxable.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm *Rules apply to the withdrawl but I agree it is great for a secondary source of emergency fund I would be more concerned about trying to manage your own portfolio. Except for people who like to do (and know how to do) this it is usually better for someone else to manage your investments via various funds.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm I know this is a digression, but I’m strongly disagreeing–managing your own can be as simple as putting it in a target date fund, and it saves you a *huge* amount of money over the years over putting your money with an advisor. Advisors don’t reliably outperform index funds across the board. They just don’t. And neither you nor I nor they know which advisor *might* outperform an index fund in future and how long they’ll manage it, so your odds of picking the advisor who does are a lot worse than your odds of getting a decent retirement if you just put your money into cheap index funds. Advisor fees generally will *start* at around 1% of your assets annually. Remember that in retirement the highest safe withdrawal rate theorized is currently 4%–that means you’re giving 25% of what you’re taking out to your advisor *every year*, and there are estimates that it’s more like 3% now, so that’s as high as 33% to give to somebody for doing something you could do for yourself online. And in a year when your investments go up 1%, they don’t, because that 1% goes to your advisor; when they go down 5%, they actually go down 6%, because of the fee. And that’s if you’re lucky enough to have only a 1% fee with no additional commissions. Most retail advisors make a *ton* from additional commissions. I’ll put link to a chart about the effect of fees in a follow-up.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:42 pm Here’s the link. It’s just for IRAs, so the effect is actually limited by the annual contribution ceiling–the effects in a taxable account are even larger: http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/advise.html
NoPantsFridays* February 20, 2015 at 3:24 pm Totally agree on the index funds vs advisor. The expense ratio is a % of the total balance, so 1% per year is absolutely huge in the long run! Just be careful with which target date funds you choose — some of them can have expense ratios of 1% per year, like an advisor. I would rather put the money in index funds (as you suggest) and rebalance it yourself over the years. Index fund expense ratios with low-cost brokerage firms can be ~0.1% per year. I think one of mine is like 0.05% per year! But I’m lucky – my company’s 401k is with one of these low-cost firms. The expense ratios on target date funds will also depend on where you have your 401k.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:43 pm Right; Fidelity is one of our 403b vendors, and though they’ve actually developed an index fund target date class, the only target dates they’re offering in our 403b are still the annoying more expensive ones with weird assets. I can put together a better mix for about a quarter of the cost with their Spartan funds, which are really good. OTOH, it’s still better for somebody to dump their paycheck into those target funds (expense ratios are at least under 1%) than to fail to put money away. Our 457 gets hugely low expense ratios because of volume; a difference of 2 basis points from the commercial offering is mostly psychological, but it’s still cheering compared to how totally crappy many 457s are. I will yet again post the link to William Bernstein’s If You Can: How Millennials Can Get Rich Slowly, because I think it’s the closest thing you can get to financial vaccination. 16 pages, that’s all, and the download is free.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:45 pm http://www.etf.com/docs/IfYouCan.pdf Really, it’s the clearest, easiest thing to read that lays out the issues of saving for retirement and gives you a plan. Even if you decide you want to follow a different plan, this is a starting place.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:43 pm I should have clarified, by managing your own portfolio I meant picking individual stocks. Picking which index fund to invest in is the way to go. Expensive advisers aren’t really outperforming any market but they charge like they are.
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 2:21 pm We consciously made the decision about 6 years ago to do some long term savings outside of retirement accounts. We had some good savings in a retirement account, and a house that we always talked about when we drove by went on the market. We basically drained our non-retirement savings dry to get the down payment, and replenished when our current house sold. We decided that we wanted more flexibility with our savings. What if we want to retire before 59 1/2? What if we see a vacation house we want to buy? What if we want to take a really nice vacation? It’s nice to be able to just write the check for a new car every 6 years or so. You can just open a taxable account with Vanguard or whomever, and just save that way. My employer will allow me to direct deposit into 2 accounts, so we just have a certain amount automatically deposited there rather than our bank.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 2:56 pm Put away everything you can, it will serve you well in the future. I up my 401(k) contribution by 1% every year, and I time it to start when I get my annual raise, and that way I never miss it.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 2:58 pm Also, this strategy has served me well. According to the articles I read, I save quite a bit more, and my retirement savings is significantly higher, than other people in my age range.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:44 pm Also saving while you’re young like the OP will benefit you so much. It has more time to grow.
Iro* February 23, 2015 at 12:30 pm Have you met with a financial adviser? You are already contributing 15% to your 401K (your contribution + match), which is well over the typical 10% advised, so more in your 401K might not be the best move for you. Where to put excess money is highly dependent on your financial goals. For example, I’m under 30, sock away 6% in my 401K (which includes the employee match) and plan to buy a house and have kids in the next 5 years. Therefore the “extra” money in my budget right now is going towards paying down debt faster because that will get me to my financial goal of being able to afford a house faster.
The IT Manager* February 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm Does your office officially or unofficially give days off for a person’s birthday? I work for the US government, and they do not give days off for a birthday. Getting your birthday off as a paid day off strikes me as odd. Uncommon yes, but also childish. I love a day off as much as the next person, but as an adult my birthdays means very little to me, and I certainly don’t have plans that requires a normal work day to be taken off. Also friends and family don’t have that day off with you. Celebrations and parties can be scheduled for nights or weekends. I do have a vague memory of very early in my career that my organization may have given a days off for a birthday – not official leave but approved by the commander. But it’s so long ago, that this strikes me as odd. * Inspired by cajun2core’s comment above.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 12:22 pm My organization does count the birthday as a holiday and you’re supposed to take it on your birthday or as near to it as possible. If it were an extra day of vacation, it’d be great, but it’s a real pain to schedule around if your birthday falls during busier parts of the year.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm I’m not a big birthday person myself, but I LOVE taking the day off and just doing nothing all day, or going on a trip. I don’t think it’s about accommodating all the things people have to do (celebrations/dinners etc.) on the day, it’s more of a gesture of good will from the employer. It’s also an easy way to give everyone an extra paid holiday without having to shut the office down. My job gives us a “flex holiday” which is one day off that you can use whenever you want, in addition to vacation/other holidays/etc. A friend’s husband works for a cancer charity, and their tagline is that they are the “sponsor of birthdays,” so their employees get their birthday off, and they can even move it to any day in the week. So if their birthday is Wednesday, they can make it either a Mon/Fri to give themselves a long weekend.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:42 pm Wow, didn’t mean for that to happen but it is a great question. As GOG11 said, we are supposed to take it on or near our birthday (but I can see it being trouble if it falls during the busiest time of the year). Most people (as Treena Kravem stated) do take it either on a Monday or Friday. While I do enjoy it, it is not nearly enough of a compensation for not matching the 403B contributions.
Gwen* February 20, 2015 at 12:44 pm No, but my roommate’s office (publishing company) does give you the day off. My job gives everyone a floating holiday that I suppose could be used on your birthday? But there’s no official policy about having birthdays off (in fact, I would say most people come to the office on their birthday, judging by the amount of birthday treats we get…)
MaryMary* February 20, 2015 at 12:59 pm OldJob gave us a floating holiday. Many people used it for religious holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Good Friday), but since I’m not religious I took my birthday off. I amused myself by declaring my birthday a holiday.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm Ooo good call! It’s probably cheaper to give you the day off, than it is to have a company-sponsored birthday “thing.”
LCL* February 20, 2015 at 1:06 pm A lot of people will ask for this day as a vacation day, and we oblige if we can. It is more common to get the phone request thusly: “@#$%! I forgot Saturday was my wife’s birthday! Can I please have it as vacation, or she will kill me.” I treat these like any other last minute request and try to fill them. I have been known to say that it sure must be hard to request vacation for a birthday since birthdays don’t occur on the same date each year…
ACA* February 20, 2015 at 1:10 pm I’d personally love to have a company-sanctioned day off on my birthday, but alas, that’s not one of our many benefits.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 2:01 pm I think it’s one of those ways companies try to promote people to just take some damn time off sometimes, and making it for your birthday is just a convenient excuse since everyone has one.
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 2:55 pm My office doesn’t officially give birthdays off, but I always take it if I can.
ThursdaysGeek* February 20, 2015 at 3:05 pm I worked at a place a long time ago where a union benefit was getting your birthday off. So the company added that for everyone, including us who were not union. Like others, it needed to be in the same week as your birthday. Since then, no, that has never been an option.
Tris Prior* February 20, 2015 at 5:35 pm We get a paid day off for our birthdays, which has to be taken in the same month as your birthday.
AggrAV8ed Tech* February 22, 2015 at 10:38 pm My boss doesn’t even know when my birthday is, so…nope!
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 12:13 pm First, thank you to the folks who gave me some feedback the other week, with regards to managing a very difficult coworker. Knowing I was on the right track helped a lot. I’ve even disarmed her some by being politely empathetic, so yay. Second, Alison, thanks for hosting such a space and encouraging people to – appropriately – advocate for themselves regarding raises. Last week, I found the nerve to make a case for a higher review rating, to my boss. I didn’t get it, but feeling confident enough to try made a positive impression on her… even if she did basically tell me to always come in sick then go home, instead of calling out, unless I was in hospital. That was a bit of an eye roller, but baby steps right? I’ll still get at least a cost of living increase anyway, and I discovered I had a spine.
PEBCAK* February 20, 2015 at 12:14 pm Is there a way to add my twitter handle to my linked in profile without letting LI send out tweets?
Gwen* February 20, 2015 at 12:45 pm My twitter handle is on there and I’ve never had it tweet. Is that a thing?
PEBCAK* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm I don’t know…when I tried to add it, it said I had to give LI permission to tweet on my behalf.
Sadsack* February 20, 2015 at 2:03 pm I know this isn’t meant to be funny, but man did it make me laugh.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm I think that’s only if you post an update to LI there’s an option to tweet it at the same time (I do this with Instagram and FB).
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 12:17 pm So I’ve posted in the past that I make my holiday cards in Adobe Illustrator to improve my skills so I can later use it professionally. I’ve started to do the same thing with WordPress, keeping a blog to keep family up to date, but meanwhile learning the ins and outs of WordPress. It’s not something usually required for my career, but my type of position does sometimes lend itself to be the external communications/social media role, so I’m hoping to one day use these skills in an actual job. It’s proving to be somewhat tougher than I anticipated, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a (free) online resource that goes over WordPress at the beginner-intermediate level. (I couldn’t decide if this was work or non-work thread appropriate, but I figured I’d get better responses here. Let me know if I should re-post Sunday!)
Lore* February 20, 2015 at 12:59 pm This may or may not be relevant depending on your location–but NYPL and Brooklyn Public Library offer free access to Lynda.com for cardholders. On a quick search, it looks like other members include St. Paul, Omaha, Arlington Heights, etc. I’ve found their courses really helpful (I did the beginner WordPress one a few years ago before a brief foray into blogging). The thing I like best is that all the courses are broken down into “chunks” about 6-10 minutes long focused on a very specific skill or set of skills, so if you need a refresher on a particular task, it’s really easy to find and review only that segment. You can also get a free 10-day trial–which should be enough time to do one particular course (most are 6 hours or so).
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm Thanks! I’m not in any of those cities, but the local university offers free membership to its students, and so I send my interns there all the time (like when one told me she didn’t know how to make a table in Word…another story!). I didn’t realize there was a free trial, though.
loquaciousaych* February 20, 2015 at 12:18 pm Yay! An open thread on a day when I am home! I have two work related issues. The first is that I recently changed to a new company in the same industry that I’ve worked in previously. This new job is about 6 months old, and it is a HORRIBLE disaster from top to bottom. The major issue is fit- despite careful questions and good replies in the interview, I am absolutely NOT comfortable here and my boss knows it. She isn’t comfortable with me in the role, either (wow, thanks for that pressure =< ) and it is obvious that I made a crucial mistake when taking this job. I am just as responsible for some of the issues as they are, but the end all be all is that I want out, like yesterday. Any tips on addressing this in interviews? I keep feeling like "this was a bad culture fit" isn't very specific, and I don't want to badmouth my current employer. 2nd: I had an AWESOME interview earlier this week and it really gave me confidence to keep looking for better opportunities – I am a viable candidate and something is out there for me. (yay!)
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 1:31 pm I wrote about a very similar position above. I also need tips for handling it in the interview…..it really sucks, some companies do things so oddly or hoard information and manage in ways that are so off-the-wall that you couldn’t possibly have asked about them in the interview.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 12:22 pm I would love some feedback on this. Here’s the background. I am starting my MBA/M.S. in a few weeks through the top-ranked online program from a bricks and mortar school. I, personally, am completely on board with the wave of online schools and feel like it’s where the future of education is going, at least in some areas of study. I also love that I get to interact with people all over the world AND not have to stop working for two years. So there’s my take, but really, it’s how others view this that matters. I remember a post on AAM a while back about a woman who didn’t respect her boss because he got an online degree. I would love to know what people think. Believe me, I’ve gotten a lot of negative or snobby comments on it, so I can take it.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 12:30 pm Not trying to be snarky, but what’s the point of gathering all this feedback if the decision is already made? (and presumably you can’t get your money back, at least for the first set of classes) Honestly though, as long as on your degree/resume, you can’t tell there’s a difference between the online version and the brick and mortar version, I wouldn’t even worry about it. It’s the all-online schools that people still flag and question. The people I don’t respect (more like roll my eyes at) are the ones who get degrees in things like Leadership, or something vague/non-specific/non-teachable topic like that, where they probably paid a lot of money at a low-rate school and didn’t have to write a thesis. But then all of a sudden, they think they’re the cat’s meow and their signature is Treena Kravm, M.A. as if it means something.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 12:46 pm Well, the decision has been made on my end and I feel confident in it. But I also feel like I will probably have to defend my decision since it’s not the typical way to get an MBA. So if all the feedback is, “Yay! No one will view it any differently!”, then I would present it in interviews in a totally different way than if the feedback is, “Ugh, what a stupid waste of money.” Just some background… a lot of these online degrees from bricks and mortar schools say, as a selling point, that you don’t even have to tell people it’s online. Not the school I am attending but a lot. It seems to tell two stories… that yes, an online degree can be just as good, but by the way, you don’t even have to tell anyone it’s online.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm Is it a for-profit or a non-profit? That makes more difference to me than online vs. brick and mortar. Though I’m with Treena Kravm in wondering about what’s actionable here–is there something specific that would be helpful to you here?
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 12:50 pm Oh, and yes ,the feedback I would be seeking would be how others view it because it will totally change how I present it. Please see above response to Treena for more specifics about where I am coming from. I am hearing two thought processes from most people… either just pretend you went bricks and mortar, or go all out and speak to the merits of online. I am totally for the latter and refuse to pretend I went to the traditional MBA, but I wonder why they would even suggest the former if there wasn’t a stigma with these degrees, you know?
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 1:40 pm Do you expect to be discussing the merits of an online degree? I would think that if an interviewer asked about your degree, you would be talking much more about a project/thesis, or your courses. Unless they went to the brick and mortar version, and wanted to talk to you about the good old days or something, I can’t see how an online vs. on-campus conversation would even come up. Maybe you’re just trying to over-prepare, but once the degree is done, you’re going to have a lot to say about why it was awesome. Just the “I was able to get my degree and continue working” line is going to do you wonders. I wouldn’t ever lie about the fact that it was online, but I think the common method is to not draw unnecessary attention to it, because some people do have a thing about them.
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 2:26 pm I’ve never had anyone ask me about my degrees in particular, except in the “hey, me too” way. My master’s degree was videotapes mailed to me from a brick & mortar school in the 1990’s. If you look at my resume, you’d see that, because I have a job 600 miles away continuously for 9 years before the degree was granted.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 2:45 pm Lol, yeah, they’ll definitely be able to see that I was working in one state and attending school in another at the exact same time.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:45 pm I am not a hiring manager so take this with a grain of salt. If it is from a brick and mortar school that has an online program it is very different from a diploma mill school that is only on-line. I would respect for former much more than the latter.
Kara Ayako* February 20, 2015 at 12:46 pm Based on your description, I believe I just completed my M.S. from the same school. Some things to note: when I talked about my degree (while I was in the program), no one focused about the “online” part of it. It’s a very well-known school with a fantastic program (both online and in person). For those who seemed a little dubious, talking to them a bit more about the program did the trick: same professors as the on-campus program, one week in person annually (so actually getting to know your cohort), and tremendous opportunities like study abroad. Once they see the program is top-notch, people get over the “online” thing pretty quickly.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 12:54 pm Thank you! So they needed convincing, but didn’t discount it outright is how I understand this. The whole reason I chose this school is because they DID make the online seem just as good… so many others had the, “And just don’t tell anyone it’s online!” attitude. It’s all about the perception of the people hiring you though. And congrats on earning your M.S.!
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 1:11 pm I mean this with good intentions but of course they made it seems just as good. Online courses/degrees have a huge financial advantage for universities in they can hope to grab more people and save on facilities. I find them to actually be a ton more work than brick and mortar ones. Both the students and professor have to make up for the lack of class discussion and attendance and that is more work for students to do and more things for professors to grade. I wouldn’t list it as online only on your resume and I support the talk about it like it’s just a program but don’t lie. Being as it’s from a real university I think it would be perceived as the same or slightly lower than a brick and mortar program depending on the hiring manager.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:00 pm Our online program has class discussions, and I don’t think that’s unusual. “Online” isn’t the same thing as “asynchronous.”
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 2:23 pm I don’t think it’s unusual either. I just find it more work to type out things every week in place of in class discussion/instruction. This could be a personal preference as a student but I know every person I know who has taught one considers an online class more tedious.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:47 pm Oh, our professors don’t seem to feel that way, but then we’ve been doing it for 20 years, so it’s pretty embedded.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 3:51 pm Just for clarification fposte…when you say “our online program”, are you saying that you are an instructor of online programs? Or work at a bricks and mortar with online? I have a friend that teaches online and she’s all about it and prefers it to her former work in traditional education. She likes that she seems to get a more diverse background too and had said that her former student body were all pretty similar. That IS something I’ve noticed with my future classmates… they are truly from all walks of life and backgrounds. Surprising amount of deployed military too, but that makes sense since they can stay where they are while still attending school. And as a person that is typically bad with social media, I’ve had to step up my game in order to get in on the networking. These are just offhand things that I’ve noticed, but hadn’t considered.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:47 pm I will only speak for the several I know. They have all complained about how they still have to prepare a lesson as usually but then they have more grading since there is no in class component. This could also just be that they don’t like online teaching and are being all bitch eating crackers about it.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:58 pm @Jessica–I’m at a brick and mortar grad program with an online incarnation; I’ve never taught online (I only teach occasionally), but I haven’t heard anybody complaining about teaching online since the early days we were doing it. I agree that the student bodies vary somewhat between B&M and online, though we do a lot to bring the groups together; it’s also interesting to see people with different communication styles respond to different interfaces. (As I note below, we’ve had some classes that mixed online and in-person classrooms, which are really interesting.)
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 2:38 pm So, I do agree that a lot of these programs seem like a cash cow for some universities. I heard from someone that works at one in my state that their school takes as many people as they can because class sizes are virtually limitless. Interesting story on how they are able to be limitless when there needs to be grading…. they actually outsource it to some company in China. This wasn’t an admissions person trying to get me to go there, but a friend that told me the behind the scenes info. The school that I will be attending has dedicated teaching assistants and limited class sizes, so that was something I was seeking. In addition, they require various on-campus experience to meet your classmates and use an awesome system where professors teach and people interact realtime. It’s all very fascinating to me, but you’re right that it can be asynchronous… if you choose to go about it that way. I plan to attend the realtime sessions though.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm I’m in a hurry to go to lunch so I may not have fully read the question/comments and what I’m offering might be totally irrelevant and not helpful. SOrry if it is… I have two Master’s Degrees – one from a bricks and mortar public university satellite campus on a military base. My other one (more recent) is from University of Phoenix. I have always thought that UoP had a bad reputation as being a diploma mill, but I didn’t care because I has GI Bill money to burn and the degree was 150% relevant to what I do in my day job. Since I have two MA degree experiences from two different institutions I love telling people that my UoP program was WAY more rigorous and relevant than my “traditional” degree. Hands-down it was a really great experience and I learned a ton of stuff that I use often in my work. I am sure there are some crappy online schools out there, but I am always quick to tell people that my online degree program with UoP was really very good because I, too, fear the stigma of it.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 2:26 pm My friend’s mom did a degree at DeVry, She described her workload and it was way harder than my bachelors or masters.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:54 pm yeah, it was pretty intense in terms of the amount of interaction they required you to have. Then there was group projects that required a whole other set of ongoing interaction, in addition to your own personal project for the class. It kept me hopping. I’d love to teach online just because of the interaction students/instructor can have with each other (not unlike what we do here on AAM, to be honest).
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm Glad to hear that! I think that no matter the online school, if it comes up, you kind of have to sell the merits of it just because people are so used to the alternative. I’m a huge fan of online education as a whole, including Coursera, Khan Academy, Code Academy, MIT Opencourseware, etc. I just like that it is accessible to more people. I hope it continues to be more accepted.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:52 pm Agreed. I can’t see it not being more accepted as time goes on when it’s frankly a damn good way for many people to get an education. I could have never gotten that the degree I did in my local area without the online option. And I think when people have good experiences and share that with others it helps break down the stigma. Least that’s what I’m hoping :)
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm Exactly! I actually can’t get this degree combination that I want in my home state; I checked every school just to see. I love that I could find an alternative that I felt was the best combination of all factors, because when I first started looking into graduate degrees a few years back, I was limited by what was available in my area and didn’t really want to relocate. I’m glad you were able to find something that worked for you too!
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 3:46 pm Yeeeeees, let us defeat the stigma! Without my online courses (at a non-profit bricks and mortar school where I can also locally attend classes at a satellite where they know me on sight, OR the main campus), I wouldn’t be able to manage school. I have a disability that worsens badly in the winter, and makes getting to class reliably nearly impossible sometimes. But I can stick to a schedule of discussions Wednesday, assignments and watch lecture Fri/Sat, etc. because I can avoid unnecessary painful cold exposure. It’s pretty sweet, especially since once it warms up, I can mix in some in-person courses when I can reliably make it to class. I’m really grateful to have wound up near such a flexible school.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 4:09 pm What I love about online learning is the seemingly endless variety a person could have: synchronous online; asynchronous online; blended with in-person and online; etc !
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 4:14 pm I know!!! My school has realtime interaction, which can turn into recorded asynchronous, an on-campus portion, plus tons of intensive weekend workshops, clubs, and study abroad programs. It really IS what you make of it.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:53 pm We’ve had great success with classes mixing online and in-person attendees, too–it’s fascinating to see how they develop communication with one another.
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 5:03 pm Yeah! I think even the in-person classes are actually much more like blended classes, in that assignments are submitted online (at least on comp sci) and there’s discussion boards and resources online. At least, they were moving towards that when my husband finished this degree program six years ago. I’m excited to find out once it stops going all COLDPOCALYPSE on us outside. (Not my most professional phrasing, but this arctic stuff doesn’t make me feel real professional you know?)
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm I do think that earning a degree online is a fundamentally different experience than earning one the traditional way, and I admit that I’m not altogether pleased at the expectation that people who don’t sit in classrooms want the same exact certifications as people who took time out of their lives to be there. I’m not an employer, so who knows if I’m off-base, but I think you can expect some people to be aware that your particular program was completed online, even if you end up with a MA that isn’t different in other ways.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:01 pm I think this discussion is also a good illustration that people have a lot of different perceptions about what online courses of study actually involve.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 2:11 pm Perhaps, but I think this discussion is more colored by the majority of people who tend to flock to online programs. There’s a vast difference between, “I’ll just cut corners and get this degree on weekends without having to adjust anything in my current lifesytle,” and “I’d like to earn a legit degree but it’s not feasible for me to give up my full-time paycheck for two-plus years.”
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 2:30 pm Or, I’m working at a job out here in the middle of nowhere, I guess I’ll get my masters degree now, especially since the company is willing to pay for it.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 2:42 pm That’s probably the best reason to go the online route. I won’t go so far as to say it’s a waste of money, but considering that pretty much all online programs are tainted by association due to the University of Phoenix and its ilk, I’m not sure it’s worth it to ever bother, even if you find a legit program. If the goal is to get a good job, you have to consider the perspectives of your future employers.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:48 pm I think it also depends on the online program and the field, too. In my field, it’s really not true to say it’s all tainted by UoP.
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 3:07 pm You do know that distance education has been going on for a very long time, even before the internet, right? In Indiana, before online courses, the universities had a program called IHETS (Indiana Higher Education Telecommunications System) that involved satellites and direct phone systems. (Wow, google says it was created in 1967.) Companies throughout the state would have equipment, and students would attend class real time with a phone connected to a classroom and viewing live the class.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 3:14 pm I honestly didn’t know that, but I doubt my boss would have known that either. I’m not saying I agree with it the prejudice, but I think it would be unwise to drop a lot of money on an online program without being aware of the fact that, depending on your field, your degree might not make a difference in your career.
Judy* February 20, 2015 at 5:18 pm And I do say that IHETS was focused more on masters degrees, as far as I know. I’m not sure how many brick and mortar schools are offering bachelor’s degrees online.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 3:00 pm From my experience alone, it seems to me that the possibility of someone being able to coast in a traditional university setting (or even the 4 hours, once a week night classes like I did) is higher than in an online setting (of course this all depends on your degree and school and lots of other factors). I think online degree programs try to make up for the fact that you’re not gathered together and demand that you complete responses to prompt questions; you have to log in and provide answers/generate discussion a few times a week, you have group work (which I loathed since it was virtual. But that was also a really practical exercise because we face stuff like that in the workplace these days); and then you had personal projects. I would expect more people to wash out of an online program because of it’s demands versus just showing up one night a week to listen to lecture. (but again that was my experience, ymmv)
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 3:05 pm Yes, I can see the burnout factor here. It can be VERY different to manage your own time and schedule when you don’t have the structure of, “Go to class at this time”. That’s actually a concern of mine as I start. Personally, I can’t ever see myself back on a college campus in person…that’s just not where my life is anymore, though I loved my undergrad. Just too many life factors that make it impossible. Yay for other options!
naanie* February 22, 2015 at 3:27 pm Yes – I did an online 2 year degree program, after completing my bachelor’s degree in-person, and online coursework is different and at least as challenging, if not more so, as in-person classes in my experience, because there’s no one forcing you or helping you do things on time, it’s all you. You really have to be committed and be good at managing your time to do well. I found I liked the online class discussions better than in-person ones, because I could take the time to form a response online in a way that I couldn’t in a live classroom. But you have to commit to being consistent throughout the week of participating and doing the work. If someone questions how “legit” your online program is, you could go over the reputation of the school and program, and describe briefly all that you had to do, e.g. participate in online discussions x times a week, do group projects, write so many essays, complete an internship, etc. I complemented my online class with an in-person job and an internship, and I met some of my online classmates in person, which all really helped my experience, but that may not be possible for you; you can still include colleagues in your network later, though.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 2:56 pm I don’t think that it’s the same as a traditional degree, and they don’t even try to present it that way, because it’s geared toward those that need the flexibility. But I am definitely taking time out of my life to get this degree and will probably have almost no free time because of it for 2.5 years. I’ll most likely have to be waking up way earlier and going to bed later and not having a lot of weekend plans to keep up with the workload. Whether that adds up to the same as a traditional degree, I’ll never know. What it comes down to is accessibility and it’s just not feasible for me to stop working for over two years and I can’t attend night classes because of family obligations. I don’t expect people to view it as exactly the same, but I most definitely will be taking time out of my life.
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 3:57 pm The perception that one can do it all on the weekend, and that one doesn’t have to change one’s lifestyle, is not true to my experience as someone doing a bachelors with online courses. I spend three to four nights a week working on my coursework, depending on how difficult a topic is or how engaged I get in discussions with my classmates or (already in the field) brother and husband. There’s a lot of social events and interest groups I have to miss out on attending, because of school. There were a few folks who thought they could phone it in, earlier in this course chain, but they washed out. Rigor and life-work-school balance challenges still exist in online courses, from good schools.
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 3:59 pm Shoot, I meant to post this as a reply to the comment from soitgoes at 2:11pm.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 10:32 pm My experience online was that they made you do more work, in part to combat the negative that is out there. One course had us reading several hundred pages a night, plus posts plus assignments. The first thing that happened was the posts stopped. After a bit one person came on and said “I. cannot. do. this.” Everyone jumped in and the prof reduced it to 300-500 pages a week. It was tough but it was doable. (The reading was very time consuming. Some of it could only be absorbed by allowing it to incubate.) If this had been a B&M class, I could have done two classes in the time I spent doing this one class. It was hugely interesting, so I stayed with it.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm I did my MBA online from a brick-and-mortar school, and all I have on my resume is that I received an MBA from This University, with no mention of it being online. I’ve never gotten any negative feedback, but I will say the school is a pretty prestigious Jesuit university in this area, so the name carries quite a bit of weight. I didn’t even really need it for my career, it was just something I wanted to do. Plus my company offered tuition reimbursement at the time, which is the only reason I could do it — it would have been way too pricey to foot the bill myself. I LOVE the online format, but that isn’t surprising. I am an INTJ who came up as 89% introverted (!) the last time I took an MB test.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 3:10 pm You MIGHT live in my state… there is a school just like that known for the same things here. I love the online format too…but I think a person needs certain skills, like great time management, to get the best of it. Glad you enjoyed your program!
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 3:32 pm Honestly, I’m surprised at the view about online degrees because (as I understand it) many students in the US have to work the equivalent of a full time job during college anyway so to me an online degree is just a more flexible way of doing that. To give you some non-US perspective, the Open University has been running in the UK since 1969 and has embedded the idea of distance learning into UK culture. It generally takes longer to get an Open University degree because it’s expected that you will be working full time (or similar) and not able to commit as much time as you would if being a student were your only commitment. My friend did her masters which would have taken a year if she’d dropped out of work and done it full time, it took her three years. I think that’s another good indication is if it takes you longer than it would if you were attending the institution then it implies that you’re doing the same amount of work just over a longer period.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 3:58 pm And this is yet another thing I’ve noticed in my extensive research before I took the plunge into online/hybrid programs. The stigma varies wildly between countries. USA is pretty accepting or getting there, on the whole. Didn’t know that about the UK, but I love the attitude. Middle East, India, China, really Asia on the whole… not really having it yet. My school does have diversity from other countries, but by far, students from Asia flock to the traditional version. I would like more diversity in that regard.
Onymouse* February 21, 2015 at 10:57 pm It could also be a visa issue – if the students have the money and want a path to working in the US, getting a student visa as a full-time student can be the first step.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 5:09 pm I’ve been looking at programs at Open University, what’s the general opinion a lot of people have? I like the programs, but am not sure about the reputation.
PuppyPetter* February 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm Including Salary Requirements? I’m being downsized and applying for new jobs I’m coming across requests to include salary requirements. I hate this! What do I say? Don’t want to give a number but don’t want to send without… Help!
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm Unfortunately, this is just something you have to do. I fully agree that employers should post salary ranges in the ad and I hate those that don’t. I think Alison has posted on this before. Try searching this blog.
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 1:52 am If they require salary requirements, I think you should just tack it on the end of the cover letter: “As requested, my salary requirement would be in the range of $__,___ to $__,____.” This is actually a great opportunity to weed out positions that won’t work for you, and they won’t waste your time, and you won’t waste their time. Find out what the market rate is for that kind of position, and then put in whatever is around that range that’s the lowest you would possible accept and then put in the highest you would want.
limenotapple* February 20, 2015 at 12:24 pm This is a question for those who work in an academic setting (college or university). How close is too close for student contact? My supervisor (mid-60s) has become very close friends with a student (early 20s) who works in our department. They go out for drinks, dinner and lunch. The student spends weekends at the supervisor’s house in a neighboring community. Until now I’ve written this off as Not My Problem/None Of My Business, but I’m not sure if there is a bigger picture I should be considering. Do your institutions have rules about this? I can think of bad outcomes but that doesn’t mean this is headed there. It does make things difficult re: other workers thinking the student gets special treatment, and yes, I am worried about how it looks from the outside. Their relationship is not a mentoring type of relationship, it’s just a friendship.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm If the supervisor supervises that student, it’s inadvisable. But I don’t see this as a university thing, really; it’s more about it being a risky thing to be close friends with a direct report and a likely problem if you’re close to one of your staff and not others. I think your Not My Problem approach is probably the best response.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 1:11 pm As fposte said, that question is not limited to the academic setting. If a person supervises another person, that sort of relationship is not advisable (if not downright dangerous) regardless of the setting. If they are of opposite sex, then that opens the supervisor up to charges being brought up.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 1:17 pm See if your university has any policies, if not then it’s none of your business.
Former PhD* February 20, 2015 at 1:40 pm As a former PhD student, I don’t think it’s necessarily alarming. Especially towards the end of your candidacy, you are on more equal standings in terms of expertise because you have specialized so much. I regularly had meals with my advisor and attended social functions, though not always alone. It’s not unheard of for grad students to help their advisors move. If this were an undergrad, your worries about special treatment are valid, but for PhDs, especially if their research group is small (e.g. my group just had me and two other students), it’s expected that your advisor gives you more attention and support. Unless you really think there are sexual undertones to the relationship, I don’t think it’s anything you should worry about.
Malissa* February 20, 2015 at 12:29 pm Can we all agree that Fifty Shade of Grey and why someone would not want to see the movie are not topics for the workplace?
nona* February 20, 2015 at 12:39 pm Yeah, also not topics for a long car ride with family. Ask me how I know!
HeyNonnyNonny* February 20, 2015 at 1:10 pm Yes, this. There is no good answer when your mother asks for your opinion on it.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 1:33 pm OMG yes. My mother spent about a month trying to discuss it with me and just kept talking about it no matter how many times I told her it was not an acceptable topic for us to discuss. She also used to try to ask me about Samantha on Sex & the City: “Are there really women with sex lives like this?” And then she’d want to discuss that. Why? She has friends for these conversations; there are no excuses for harassing her daughters about it.
Merry and Bright* February 20, 2015 at 3:50 pm Last year someone in the rural town where my parents live applied for permission to open a pole dancing club. It caused a bit of uproar but my mum’s question was “What is a pole dancer?”
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 4:38 pm My mom keeps asking me about the book and how she wants to see the movie. (We have a mutual friend who is into this crap so I was all “why don’t you go see it with her?” She already saw it. And apparently doesn’t want to see it again?). Some doofus coworker of hers gave her the book but she has yet to touch it. Knowing my mom, she will absolutely be traumatized if she ever watches the movie or reads the book. I have flat out told her she’ll hate them and not to do it. I fear someday she’ll watch the movie (I rest assured she’ll probably never get around to the book because it has been rotting around the house for years) and it will not be a fun discussion afterwards.
catsAreCool* February 20, 2015 at 11:31 pm Dave Barry wrote about it in one of his recent books. I had no intention of reading Shades of Gray before I read Dave’s description. Now I really, really have no intention of reading it.
catsAreCool* February 20, 2015 at 11:32 pm Maybe your Mom can read Dave’s Barry’s description of it – that might put her off of it.
nona* February 20, 2015 at 2:39 pm “It’s Twilight fanfiction” worked, but that relied on my mom knowing what Twilight and fanfiction are. My dad was the culprit in the car ride. :(
NoPantsFridays* February 20, 2015 at 3:06 pm Pretend you don’t know what she’s talking about. Or, if you’re like me, don’t pretend and genuinely don’t know what it’s about (and then be informed by your mother. Some conversations you cannot un-have).
Tris Prior* February 20, 2015 at 5:39 pm haha! This came up just today in a phone conversation with my mother. Just… no. I don’t think she is fully aware of what the movie is about… but I am sure as hell not explaining BDSM to my mother!
MaryMary* February 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm I had awkward conversations with more than one male coworker when the books first came out. Very much “have you heard of this book my wife is obsessed with?” Yes, I have, and no, I am not discussing why I think your wife is so into the book.
EvilQueenRegina* February 20, 2015 at 2:39 pm This one guy at my last job made the mistake of asking who in the office had read it. Cue a disclosure from my Bitch Eating Crackers about how she had suggested to her then partner that they get the handcuffs out and he refused. Everybody else was then Fifty Shades of Green after that.
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 4:17 pm Oh how I wish, but that doesn’t work when the office bookclub read the books together. Including reading them at work. People can read whatever but please to not read blatant softcore porn at work, thanks!
trichwig* February 20, 2015 at 12:30 pm So…having them do another spontaneous interview for another position is good right? I’ve worked myself into a lather because I can’t reach one of my references, and I’ve thought of someone I should have used. Could someone with more PeopleSoft expirence than I tell me why I getting ‘application materials recieved’ notices? I about cried with the first one, I thought it was a rejection notice
Brian_A* February 20, 2015 at 12:32 pm I have a Skype interview this afternoon with a panel of 3. Please send good vibes! My first Skype interview ever, and it’s for an organisation that I really want to work for. Fingers crossed!
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 4:12 pm ~~~~~~~~~~~~VIBES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I hope all went well!
LizB* February 20, 2015 at 12:33 pm I’m about to run a meeting that may be a total disaster. Wish me luck!
LizB* February 20, 2015 at 1:58 pm Update: it was not a total disaster! It wasn’t as well-attended as I had hoped it would be, but we accomplished what we needed to accomplish. (For context, the attendees are all between the ages of 11 and 17 and are not known for their stellar behavior or listening skills, so I was worried. They did a great job, though!)
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:35 pm Yay for partial disaster :-)! Okay, yay for the kids for pulling it together and you for leading them.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 12:39 pm Today’s news: there are six of us who have to do public service/front counter shifts. Those of us who aren’t officially doing public service all day long have been having to do a mandatory minimum of 4 hours a week (more if someone’s sick). There are two people on customer service officially. They have now decided that one of those people is going to be doing 4 hours EVERY DAY so that the rest of us only have to do 2 hours a week during lunch shifts. Which is certainly nice for me, but it makes me wonder if my poor coworker (who’s an excellent person and probably the best at that particular job) is going to burn the hell out doing 4 hours a day. And what will happen if/when she’s sick. I kind of wanted to ask her if she’d gone insane except someone else did first :P They’re going to try it out for 30 days…we shall see.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 12:52 pm I did front line tech support for 11 years. I loved every minute of it. I would love to have a more customer focused position. Since your co-worker is so good at it, I have a feeling that your co-worker may enjoy it and it may not be the hell for them that it would be for you. Some people (like me) really enjoy working with people and could do it all day long. Your co-worker may be one of those people.
Jennifer* February 20, 2015 at 4:42 pm She generally is, but I’ve heard comments out of her at times about getting tired and the like that makes me think she may find it wearing pretty soon. A good chunk of the time, front counter work is intense/you’re the front line of the impending drama and I’ve heard her say things along the lines of “I wish someone else would do the Friday closing shift for awhile because I get stuck with the disasters,” so…. doing that for 4 hours doesn’t seem sustainable. Especially since usually nobody does more than 3 hours a day even on emergency “we have no staff” days. But…whatever. I do think it’s a good point they made that if the clientele is dealing with the same person most of the time that she’ll remember their problems instead of them having to start over every time. I’ll trade you if you want to focus on customers! I find it incredibly draining to deal with complaints all day and am more of an introvert than I thought.
cajun2core* February 20, 2015 at 9:34 pm Deal. If you are in the Tuscaloosa, AL area, let me know and I will figure out a way for us to communicate.
GigglyPuff* February 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm Very specific question: Does anyone here by any chance use the scanning software OmniScan?
John R* February 20, 2015 at 12:42 pm I wrote in a couple months ago about being in a job for 19 years but wanting a change. Well, I went on some interviews and followed all of AAMs advice about resumes and cover letters. I’m happy to say out of 10 applications for jobs, I was interviewed for four and offered two so THANK YOU AAM. My past approach would have been to submit 100 applications in the hope something would stick but instead I concentrated on 10 jobs I *really* wanted. Now I’m in a bit of a different “pickle”. I accepted a new job, and gave my notice here. They seemed surprised that I want to leave after so long, but I convinced them it was time for a change for me. Now that the start day for the new job is approaching I’m having second thoughts and jitters about leaving a place I’m so familiar with. What if I made the wrong choice? What if I hate the new job even though it seems great? What if I can’t do the new job? etc. Are these normal feelings to have or a warning sign that maybe I really should think twice about leaving?
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 12:48 pm Congrats!!!! All the feelings you’re having are totally normal. Starting a new job is scary for anyone. After being somewhere for 19 years, I’d have to imagine you are experiencing that tenfold. Disclosure: it’s normal to walk into a job and feel like you have no idea what you’re doing for I’d say the first couple months? I think almost every job I’ve had I’ve gone into it and thought at some point ‘OMG what am I doing, why did I take this job’. Sure enough, after a few months I feel more comfortable and then things start feeling easier and like clockwork. Before you know it, you’ll be able to train other people and show them around the office. If the job ends up not being what you were looking for, okay then you can make the decision then. You obtained a new job before so you surely can do it again if need be. Good luck!!
Sparrow* February 20, 2015 at 1:11 pm Congrats! I can relate to your situation. I’ve been at my current job for 14 years (first job out of college actually) but there have been some changes recently that are making me consider looking for a new position. It is definitely scary to leave the comfort zone and jump into something new. I don’t have any advice, but I understand how you feel!
College Career Counselor* February 20, 2015 at 3:08 pm First, congratulations! Second, I had my first job for over 10 years before I moved to a different area of higher ed (one where most of my knowledge was accumulated through on-the-job self-training), at a completely different institution. So, I had some feelings of anxiety about leaving a comfortable, familiar environment where I was the acknowledged expert and moving to a team-based environment where my knowledge base was a lot less than everyone else’s. Frankly, that anxiety hung around for awhile until I realized that a) I was learning the new terminology, processes, etc. b) I had areas of knowledge/expertise that my colleagues found helpful c) There were definite “transferrable skills” from the previous environment to the new one–and I relied on those a LOT, until I began to increase my knowledge base d) bringing experience and different practices to a new employer is often useful and valued (*caveat: don’t over-do the “well, at old job, we always did it this way”, particularly early on) While everyone’s mileage may vary, what I personally found was that after an adjustment period (a few months) I liked the new institution and field even MORE than the previous one (and I liked that one a LOT). I suspect a certain amount of change anxiety is normal (had it at every new job I’ve ever had), but only you can tell if it’s because you should “think twice before leaving.” However, if there weren’t something that wasn’t right at the current job (even if it’s “I need a change of institutional scenery after 19 years”), then you probably wouldn’t have done any job search, much less a targeted one for “10 jobs [you] *really* wanted.”
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 4:49 pm Congratulations! Nope, totally normal. Change is scary. But it’s going to be good. :)
Sunflower* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm Can you trust job applications on CareerBuilder/Monster? I have always had a bad taste in my mouth about these sites- usually because if I ever apply, I end up getting emails and phone calls about jobs not at all related to my field. A lot of the posts are ‘too good to be true’ with company’s that are sketchy at best. If I find a job, I usually try to look up the job on the company’s internal system but for this one I recently applied to, it’s not posted. The company is legitimate but I’m curious of other people’s experience with these job boards?
some1* February 20, 2015 at 1:55 pm I experience the issues you did when I posted *my* resume on those sites, but I have been interviewed for and got one job from a posting there. You just have to be really, really careful not to click “Yes” when they ask if you want to post your resume there.
Casey* February 20, 2015 at 1:56 pm In my experience, I haven’t nailed anything from a job board; which, makes me believe employers use them to “see what’s out there.” I’ve received countless emails for all sorts of insurance sales and other sales from every job board you could imagine. I am not a sales person, nor believe my skills match. I’ve done a bit of online research and found out that these jobs have a high rate of fallout due to competitive wages and low stability ratings … so, these companies are most likely looking for anyone and everyone. The best way to use a job board, is to find companies that are hiring and go directly to the source. Go to the company website, visit the store, call for an informational interview, etc.
Sam* February 20, 2015 at 4:07 pm My one time going through them, I ended up having to change my phone number because I was getting so many sales calls. In the future, I would see a job posting there, and then apply directly through the company itself.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 4:53 pm I found useful listings on CareerBuilder, but do NOT put your resume up there. It’s a data farm for junk. I basically used it like the newspaper ads from days of yore. You can apply through there and the email/attachments goes to the company–that’s how Exjob did it. But if you upload your information, you’ll get spammed to death. Monster was completely useless to me. Remember to PDF any listings you apply to so you’ll have them if the company pulls them or the ads expire.
acmx* February 20, 2015 at 7:22 pm I’ve had a few interviews through CB but they were well known (in my industry) companies. I always look up a company before I apply if they are unknown to me (and a they ended up being sizeable companies). Monster- I only look at when Indeed has picked up a posting. Although, I have wondered if some of the WFH or make 9k/month jobs emails were from using CB.
Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.* February 20, 2015 at 9:18 pm Careerbuilder has been our primary source of job applicants/hires. I have never liked results on other job sites, although I think our in house recruiter also posts on Linked In now. Surprisingly, Craig’s List wasn’t bad in some situations.
Moving on?* February 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm I have worked for the same company for 15 years and recently their stock took a huge plunge. So they decided the best way to fix that would be to rate more people as low performers and fire all of them. I see the writing on the wall and figure it is time to move on, but I am so scared of moving on. This company is all I have known! How can I help get over that fear? Everyone I know that has moved on (either by force or choice) has been happier so I am pretty sure it will be fine – but I still have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach wondering if that really is the best thing to do.
Regina Phalange* February 20, 2015 at 1:00 pm So sorry to hear this! Change is definitely scary. My situation was that I lost my job (hadn’t been there nearly as long) and found myself moving halfway across the country where I knew zero people for a new job. Few things are scarier than that. However, I had to just allow myself to simultaneously be scared out of my mind but still just do it because I had no choice. Sometimes the only way out of your comfort zone is by force, but that is when you find your inner strength and surprise yourself. And it may take a few months for that feeling to go away, but it DOES go away. Good luck!
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 4:55 pm Everyone I know that has moved on (either by force or choice) has been happier so I am pretty sure it will be fine. There, fixed it! Now tell yourself this over and over, without the but. It’s scary, I know. You can do it.
Not So NewReader* February 20, 2015 at 10:45 pm The times I have been most afraid of changing are the times that I, now, am so very glad I did. You are wise to start looking now. Read AAM daily. You will be fine. You can do this.
Christina* February 20, 2015 at 12:52 pm Hi all, I was hoping someone could provide insight. I was offered a position two days ago and I think I want to take it. However, the job ad gave a wage range stating it was DOQ. I was offered the lowest wage posted. I really feel I am worth more than the lowest wage, based on my qualifications. I have a college degree and more than two years experience, which I think far exceeds the minimum qualifications for the job (HS diploma and 12 months work experience). I was going to try negotiate this morning, but I just found out the hiring manager went out of town and she gave the email of two other employees to give my answer to (one being her boss). I know she wants this position to start asap, but now I’m frazzled because I wouldn’t be negotiating with her and had previously said I would give an answer by tomorrow. I don’t know if a response stating “I’ll take the job if you can look in into increasing the pay,” is really accepting the offer or appropriate based on who would be responding to me. Can anyone give me some advice as to what to do? Thank you!
ACA* February 20, 2015 at 2:11 pm Do you have the option to say, “Would it be possible to delay my response until Hiring Manager gets back? There are a few questions I had that I’d prefer to discuss with her directly.” (This only works if she’s not gone for two weeks, of course – if she is, I have no advice, only sympathy.)
Steve G* February 20, 2015 at 2:50 pm +1. It’s not your problem that they want you to start asap, but are also conveniently not available to answer questions. Most jobs that rush to start ASAP….it’s usually a lot of hype on their end, most can wait a week or two…
Christina* February 20, 2015 at 2:52 pm I know she wants an answer by Saturday. So since one of the people I will be contacting is her supervisor, I was hoping he would be willing to perhaps negotiate. I have an email response which I was thinking of sending to all of them. I do ask for a higher wage then they offered me, but still in the middle of the wage ranges displayed on the job posting. “Hi Mary, I’m really excited to work at ABC, and I know that I will bring a lot of value. I appreciate the offer at $X, but was really expecting the starting wage to be higher range based on my experience, drive, and past work performance as displayed during the interview. I know I exceed the minimum qualifications by bringing a college degree and quite a bit of related work experience to this position. I would be happy to accept the offer if we could meet closer towards the middle of the pay scale posted in this position. Can we look at $Y as the starting wage? If that is possible, I’d be excited to get working as soon as possible. Anna and James – I understand Mary is out of the office. Is there any way you could assist me with this dialogue? Or would I need for Mary to return for this discussion? Christina” That’s the best I have so far…
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 3:16 pm First paragraph good, second paragraph rocky – and I would NOT say “I’m glad to accept, contingent on money.” Try this: “I’m really excited to work at ABC, and I know that I will bring a lot of value. I appreciate the offer at $X, but was expecting the starting wage to be higher range based on my experience, drive, and past work performance as displayed during the interview. Would you be able to do $Y as the starting wage? Anna and James – I understand Mary is out of the office. Is there any way you could assist me with this dialogue, or would you prefer to wait for Mary to weigh in upon her return?”
Miss Anona* February 20, 2015 at 12:57 pm My company recently sent out some email blasts asking employees to consider self-identifying disability status, as part of our HR employee files, due to the recent OFCCP changes requiring affirmative action for individuals with disabilities. Self-identification is optional and is said to be confidential; however, the messages clearly state that the info will be used, among other purposes, to “make improved strategic business decisions.” I have a chronic illness that qualifies as an ADA disability, but is otherwise totally invisible to those not already “in the know.” I’ve told my boss in case of emergency, and we’ve talked about potential ADA accommodations should that become necessary, but I don’t currently have anything officially in place/in my employee file. (My illness is episodic and I’m currently able to control the symptoms well enough on my own time.) Are there any benefits to self-identifying officially as an IWD? Are there any risks to my professional reputation, unofficially, in doing so (e.g. being labeled as possibly high-maintenance in the back of a future internal hiring manager’s mind, even though disability is clearly a protected class)? For what it’s worth, I’ve been in this position for two years, and will hopefully be looking to move up to the next level of my title via a promotion in place, staying with the same team/manager, around this time next year. So far I’ve averaged only 3-4 sick days per year, no expensive special equipment needed, etc. Thoughts?
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 1:08 pm I wouldn’t. This is something that only benefits the company and not you. That being said, I don’t think there’s any HARM in it. I just don’t see any benefit either.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 2:04 pm Oh man. I would not ever, never under any circumstances do this if probed by my company.
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm I wouldn’t self-identify. If you need accommodations at some point, you can disclose your disability then. There’s no benefit that I know of to doing so earlier. That email also makes me really uncomfortable. It reminds me of a scene in The Office where Dwight gets put in charge of choosing a medical insurance policy and he goes around the office trying to collect a list of all the illnesses that everyone has. It’s not to anyone’s benefit.
Miss Anona* February 20, 2015 at 2:47 pm Thank you all for confirming my instinct to RUN AWAY from this. I will not be self-identifying. I had started to wonder if maybe I was looking at this with a distorted lens, because I’ve had different many labels applied to me since I was diagnosed as a child, with varying outcomes. For some reason this request just rubbed me the wrong way. This is a huge company with offices in most states and a few dozen other countries, which employs its own fleet of company lawyers, so I’m sure they are operating within the bounds of the law here. That doesn’t make this whole thing feel any less icky to me as one of the rank and file, though.
Nashira* February 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm My very similar company is preparing to do the same self-identification request. Thank you for showing that I’m not the only one who feels really wary!
Greggles* February 22, 2015 at 9:07 am I work for a big bank that just did this and I didn’t not self disclose. If it’s not affecting my performance it doesn’t need to be mentioned.
nona* February 20, 2015 at 2:37 pm I wouldn’t. I only self-identify at work when there’s a safety-related reason to do so. I don’t see how disclosing would benefit you here.
EG* February 20, 2015 at 6:07 pm My company started asking for these disclosures (IWD and Vets) since we’re a federal contractor. We’re required to ask, you’re not required to answer. My understanding is that this helps businesses know whether they’re being successful in hiring a diverse workforce of vets, individuals with disabilities, minorities, etc. since we’re required to show efforts of outreach to these groups for job postings. All that to say, disclose if you’re comfortable. It should in no way impact you negatively, just help the company.
De Minimis* February 20, 2015 at 1:04 pm Just gotta rant for a second….if you call me into your office for help with a project, please let me know beforehand if this is about some kind of sensitive topic or political matter that you want kept quiet! Don’t just act like it’s something ordinary and then get all panicky when I ask something about the who and why of what we’re needing to do! I guess a certain stakeholder is wanting some financial data, and we’re having to figure out how to produce it, but when I asked more about it my boss started shushing me as if I was saying something I shouldn’t…. Just tired of all the political BS here….I know all jobs have that, but this has been one of the worst as far as being pulled in multiple directions by our regional headquarters, by the various governing/health boards, and by the tribal leadership! But one of the other jobs I’m looking at will probably be even worse in that respect….. Just want to get to an ordinary agency where you generally only have one government to worry about appeasing….
Anon Accountant* February 20, 2015 at 1:04 pm I’m pondering a career change. I’m 31 and when starting college my original major was computer science but then I’d worried all these IT jobs would be outsourced overseas and changed to accounting. While I like accounting the field in my area is oversaturated badly. I’ve job searched for 3 years and the available jobs are the ones that have high turnover and pay peanuts. The companies that pay well are places that it’s years before a position is open. For several reason I’ll be in my current area for a few more years at least. There are a steady number of IT related jobs in my area and I’ve been considering returning to school to take some IT classes to make the change. It doesn’t help me that the cost of IT classes at our local state university would be about $5,000 which is doable for me and would cover a substantial number of classes. I’d have to work full-time while taking classes if choosing to go that route but am so confused my head feels like it’s spinning.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 3:10 pm I have an accounting degree (which I received in 1993) and I worked in the finance arena for many years. I transitioned about 10 years ago and now I do ERP implementations/support for the Oracle Financials suite. Since you have the financial background, you could probably do work like this (for any big ERP system, not just Oracle). Accounting people will respect your guidance and suggestions, and trust your feedback, because you’ll be able to prove that you know the difference between a debit and a credit, and have an understanding of GAAP. Plus it lets you use your accounting knowledge, but you don’t have to plan your life around month-end, quarter-end, and year-end.
Anon Accountant* February 20, 2015 at 3:42 pm This sounds interesting and like it was a great change for your career. How did you prepare to make your transition? If you had to make the choice all over again would you do it again?
Ann Furthermore* February 21, 2015 at 2:06 am I kind of fell into it. I used Oracle in a very limited capacity at one job, and at the next job ( dot-com startup) they were implementing Oracle and my boss named me the “expert” since I’d used it a few times and no one else had. On top of that, she was nuts, and pretty mean to anyone who didn’t report to her. So the IT people would come to me and basically say, “Your boss is really mean, but you’re nice. So can we talk to you about what we want to do?” So I acted as their go-between. I found I really enjoyed working with the ERP system. After the IPO, I spent a few months watching money fly out the door at a truly staggering rate and I could see the writing on the wall. A friend of mine was working for a consulting firm and passed my resume along. And the rest is history! I would definitely choose this career path again. I do like the finance stuff, but the never-ending grind of month-end, quarter-end, and year-end gets pretty old. This lets you use your knowledge in a different way. To be successful in role like this, you need to like figuring out how to do things, and sometimes it takes several tries before you hit on something that works. If something doesn’t work the way you expect it to, you need to be willing to dig in and figure out why. If a user is having trouble with something, they’re going to call somebody to help them….and that somebody is you. If you have a finance/IT background, a business analyst role would probably be perfect.
Apollo Warbucks* February 20, 2015 at 4:37 pm Seconding Ann furthermore’s suggestion Ive a similar background and have worked on providing IT support for an accountancy practice’s time and billing software. With your computer science degree I bet you understand relational databases and SQL, so you’d be in a good position to transition into a support or implementation role.
Sandra Dee* February 20, 2015 at 6:16 pm I am in the same boat as Ann Furthemore. Did accounting and finance work for 10+ years, and then transitioned to a business analyst role, and currently working on several modules of our ERP system, and working on a major GL system conversion. Knowing and understanding debits and credits is an asset when working on financial systems.
Wannabe EdTech* February 20, 2015 at 1:07 pm I feel like giving up an update, bad job help agency has continued to be bad. Right now they’re telling me as a recent grad that I should try to get a job that pays 12k per year, isn’t on a career track, and makes me severely underemployed. While it’s a job, it’s not a viable option since I would be paying to work there in the long run and my energy is better spent on finding a job that pays double. So at the moment, I’m applying to everything that fits (even ones that are asking for 2-3 years experience) and working on making my portfolio website better while learning code (Ruby on Rails is frustrating). I’m working on a game activity focusing on K-12 and hope to be able to code the project by hand.
Blerp* February 20, 2015 at 1:12 pm I work in a department at a university as a staff member. The role is supporting students, checking out equipment for projects they undertake. I love my job, I love working with the students and it’s driven me to the goal of getting my masters and teaching. The problem are my coworkers. I have never worked a job in which I’ve had so many unprofessional things happen. I have had a coworker tell me “you look naked” when I wore a black maxi dress to work. On Tuesday Charles thought it would be a good idea to print out Jim’s picture and tape it to the dart board at work. He then proceeded to throw darts at it with a student worker. To top it off they then took the picture to the urinal where regular students made fun of it. Charles is checked out from the position and he initiates cliquey behavior and favoritism. This undermines everything we are supposed to be doing and students have learned to ask for Charles when they come to the counter because he will do them favors. He will gossip about students in a situation where there is no privacy, students walk by all the time. Recently notes on the boards surrounding my department have started having graffiti with one specific students name in a heart but it says “Rape Dan”. From past experiences where Charles had student worker A photoshop the face of student worker B onto a picture of a butt and set it as the background for the computer I know he has something to do with this. Conversations usually veer off to highly inappropriate topics for a school setting. Some gems include when the celebrity nudes leaked this summer Jim kept talking about how the women deserved the photos to be public. He said he wished he had saved more or seen more of this or that celebrity. It was during orientation week!! Students were walking by the counter and it got to the point were I had to ask him three times to shut the conversation down before telling him it was done and walking out because I was so angry I was shaking. Jim has told a female student worker that no one wants to see Lena Dunham naked because she was fat. All the student worker had said was that she liked the show and Jim just threw that nugget out there. I’m looking for new work but after not being able to find a decent position for five years I know it might be a while before I find something. I kinda had to rant/vent. This isn’t something I can change and I know for my sanity I need to move on, there is only so many times comments like “woman bias” can be yelled at me before I flip. Anyone with advice on getting through this until the next opportunity?
SR* February 20, 2015 at 2:01 pm That’s awful. Sorry, no real advice, just sympathy. That sounds truly terrible. I’d usually ask about going over their heads to someone and bringing up the fact that this sounds like a hostile workplace (in the legal sense of the term), but if it’s as pervasive as it sounds I’m not sure whether or not that would help.
Blerp* February 20, 2015 at 2:10 pm It’s frustrating because I’ve gone to my manager about issues with the coworker who has checked out mentally and nothing has come of that. I’m not trying to be defeatist but I really can’t imagine going to HR or above my bosses head would change anything because it would require serious changes like a more active manager and replacing staff. I’ve learned a lot from this job but my jaw drops to the floor sometimes because it’s so hard for me to believe people indeed behave like this.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 2:08 pm Have you raised this to management or reported it via your sexual harassment policies?
Blerp* February 20, 2015 at 2:13 pm I have raised it to management and nothing has happened from that. I could go to HR but that doesn’t seem like it would help at all because in the fall a student went to them about a teacher making inappropriate comments and there was no discretion. It would make my job astronomically more difficult if they found out I had reported them because they team up. At this point I know I need to move on.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 4:59 pm Gah, it sounds like a horrid place. I can’t stand when people misbehave like that and nothing is done. The only solution is to shake the dust off your heels as fast as you can.
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 1:14 pm Anyone a reformed control-freak? How do you keep these tendencies in check?
HeyNonnyNonny* February 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm Say to yourself (when applicable): Not my chair, not my problem. Repeat.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 1:43 pm I had an interesting discussion with someone regarding control freak behavior. His main point was that a person exhibits control freak behavior because privately they believe everything is out of control. So on that basis, two suggestions: 1) When the control freak thinking bubbles up it is time to ask “what did I forget/neglect?” It could be that I am not paying my bills on time and that grates on me. BUT it comes out as CF behavior some where else in my life. 2) At the same time, talk reassuringly to yourself. “If x goes wrong, then I will just handle it. Like I always do.” OR “If Sue forgets Y, we will work together to fix it.” OR simply say, “It will be okay. Whatever it is, it will be okay.”
Tiffany In Houston* February 20, 2015 at 1:15 pm Alison: Have you ever thought about doing a podcast? I’d definitely listen!
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 1:37 pm All the time! I’d love to do one. My secret dream is to turn AAM into a live Q&A radio show one day (one that pays me lots of money, not the kind where I pay them to produce it, like the offer I got last month). I’m just too lazy to figure out the logistics for a decent podcast. If someone here has a dream of handling the logistics of making an AAM podcast a reality, we should combine our dreams into one fantastic reality.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:15 pm I don’t have the patience to listen to podcasts in general, but an AAM podcast I would definitely listen to.
Swedish Tekanna* February 20, 2015 at 2:52 pm Almost anything I download to read or listen to later just stays there, if it isn’t for work. But I would definitely listen to an AAM podcast too.
Sabrina* February 20, 2015 at 2:50 pm I have a podcast (or sorta had, it’s kind of semi-permanent hiatus) . I’d be interested in helping, but not doing the production/editing. Ha. I hate that part. And I’m not very good at it. There’s a podcast out there called Tauren Think Tank, it’s an advice podcast for people who play World of Warcraft. Even if you don’t play the game, you could listen to an episode or two and get an idea of how the question/answer thing works. I don’t think they have live callers though. I haven’t listened in awhile so I could be wrong.
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 3:25 pm I have to record and produce my own short (under 10 minutes) podcast for a class I’m taking this semester. I’ve never done anything like this before, but if it turns out well, maybe we can team up.
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 1:44 am I don’t know how others feel about it, but I would definitely subscribe and religiously listen to even a low-production-value AAM podcast. It doesn’t have to be all NPR-like polished. If you did a GarageBand or Audacity recording of you and someone else chatting in a room with no background soundtrack or cool sound effects, it’d still be worth listening to.
beckythetechie* February 20, 2015 at 1:32 pm Could someone talk me through the differences between non-profit/educational fundraising and direct sales? Background: I’m looking at a position at a local university designated part of “annual giving”. Duties include: “direct mail, phonathon, electronic solicitations, online giving, volunteer management; management of annual giving prospect portfolio; promotion of annual giving; and annual giving events. the position serves as development liaison with various departments on campus and coordinates special projects as assigned.” (Typo theirs; it makes me twitchy.) It requires a bachelors, and their ad/”wish list” requests 3-5 years experience, which is where I throw on the brakes. BUT, they continue with, “Must be able to handle multiple projects, deadlines, and priorities while demonstrating creativity and vision.” (Been doing that for the last 5 years at my last position.) “Must have excellent oral and written communication skills and be able to interact effectively with individuals from diverse backgrounds and ages.” (Check.) “Individuals with experience related to issues of campus diversity and/or program experience related to multiculturalism are of particular interest.” (Semi-check, because the theatre department I was with is popular among the few multicultural students that university admits. I’ve coached kids from the inner city through learning Shakespeare and how not to chop their fingers off with the table saw. If I can swing that, I’m sure I can work with student volunteers/employees in an office or event setting too.) I’ve got 10 years of retail sales experience plus some teaching on the university level, though that teaching was related to theater skills. I’m also an officer for a local dog rescue, and have done some limited fundraising through it, mostly direct (aka: Stand outside the pet store with a jug and a rescue dog.) I’m hesitant to start the cover letter (because hell, what have I got to lose by sending my stuff?) until I have a better grasp of the difference between what I’ve been doing and what I could be doing in this assistant’s position. But the resources I’m finding from my online research aren’t really making the specifics much clearer. Thoughts?
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm Sales is a VERY transferrable skill to fundraising. You have to be able to talk to people, move them to part with their money, and be able to take a lot of “no” without losing your spirit or pulling your hair out. Really, really similar skillsets.
beckythetechie* February 20, 2015 at 8:52 pm So that’s why I’m not finding a list of skills a candidate from one would “lack” or need to work on for the other? They just streamline that well?
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 21, 2015 at 2:30 pm Actually, yes. I think that there are probably some technicalities that are different (nonprofit fundraising is a lot about storytelling, for instance, and you have to play with motivations a bit more… rather than convincing someone that their life sucks without a certain product, you’re convincing them to do something fairly selfless because they will benefit in the future or because they feel a moral impetus or because it will just make them feel good, etc), but on the whole, there’s more overlap than not.
Casey* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm How do I communicate with co-workers and create positive relationships? I am completely introverted and rarely spark up small talk – let alone have very many friends. I am very socially awkward. It’s hard for me to develop a relationship with anyone who doesn’t have something interesting to say or pertains to myself or direction. For example, I could talk about the automotive industry forever, but if someone changes said conversation to family, children, going out to bars, movies, etc. I am at a loss at what to say. My mind goes blank, I am completely out of my element. Some people notice instantly from unrealized body language, saying I’ll stare off like I’ve blacked out. And I kinda do :(
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 1:57 pm Can you think of topics you’re not comfortable with as a way to learn about them? In other words, instead of contributing, could you ask questions to learn more?
Casey* February 23, 2015 at 4:30 am It seems every time I ask questions, people either don’t care, or have no clue how to respond. I would try to simplify my question, but can’t seem to “dumb it down” – not to offend or think too highly of myself …
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm Are you comfortable just asking them some more questions about whatever it is they’re talking about and listening? Instead of focusing on becoming a better conversationalist, would you be more comfortable focusing on becoming a better listener? People often can’t really tell the difference as to specifically why someone is a great person to “speak with.” Often an individual that everyone enjoys talking to is someone that is really just an excellent listener. haha, I’m just now looking at Colette’s answer and we had the same thought! Well, I agree with her! For instance, yesterday I had taught a class about customer service and had some prison correctional officers in class. After class I just asked them a simple question if they were working the night shift and thanks for coming to a day class. They were surprisingly talkative and we had a great conversation after class for about 20 min – and all I did was keep asking them questions because I was genuinely curious about what their daily world is like. I had no skin in that game as far as having anything to talk about, but I was curious about them so I just kept asking questions and they were happy to answer. People generally love to talk about their work if you show genuine interest. Also, your emotions come from your thoughts. So if you continue to tell yourself you’re socially awkward, I promise you that your feelings will reflect it. Maybe reframe your thinking about yourself: “I have a really strong interest in the automotive industry and it’s a fun topic to talk about, but I haven’t spent much time learning about other things that people enjoy. In the next conversation I have where someone changes the subject to something I don’t know much about, instead of feeling awkward I’m just going to ask them some more questions, such as: “oh, I have heard about that movie. It looked interesting. Do you tend to like thrillers? Is it based on a book? Do you like that actor?” … and then let them talk. And after they self-disclose a little more, you offer something that fits in with what they’re saying: “I don’t get to the movies much, but I know it’s fun to watch them now with the Oscars coming soon. Do you watch the Oscars?”…and then let them talk. Don’t put pressure on yourself to know first-hand a lot about the topic they are talking about. You can become very skilled at offering a little bit of information based on what they just said and then asking another question. It can become quite a smooth and unawkward conversation that way. Good luck :)
Turtle Candle* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm This is a wonderful comment and I’m seconding all of it. I’m very, very introverted and fairly socially anxious, but I’ve gotten a reputation at my (engineering-heavy, very geeky) company as being ‘good at small talk with ‘normal people” (“normal people” is not how I’d put it, but it’s how they put it–meaning, people who are not geeky introverts) and it’s solely because I’ve worked hard on asking questions and listening. For me, a big, huge, giant important change was in reframing feelings about ‘small talk’ and what constitutes ‘boring’ conversation. If your first feeling upon someone mentioning the weather, their weekend plans, their families, etc., is ‘oh how boring and mainstream and stupid,’ then chances are excellent that two things will happen. One, you’ll start to shut down and glaze over, which makes it really hard to maintain the conversation (you can’t ask questions if you aren’t listening, after all, and it’s hard to keep listening attentively to something you’ve pre-emptively labeled as ‘boring’). Two, most of the time the other person will notice, and nobody has an easy time getting along with someone if they’re getting giant ‘I think you’re stupid and/or a bore’ vibes off them. I find that it’s a tendency of a lot of smart, geeky people to sort of categorize the world into ‘things that are interesting’ and ‘things that are not,’ and often to put a bunch of things that are super useful for developing social relationships (family, sports, weather, etc.) into category two. But if you can only carry on a conversation if it’s about something that happens to be a personal passion of yours, you’re going to be really limited. So (if you recognize this as something you do; it might not be? but I find that it’s quite common) I’d recommend aggressively reframing those topics. If someone starts to talk about their dog, their kid, their sports team, the movie they saw last night, etc., and you catch yourself going ‘ugh this stupid thing,’ stop yourself and think ‘here’s a chance for me to learn about something I don’t know about.’ Or if you absolutely can’t do that, then at least, ‘here’s a chance for me to practice social skills.’ If you can summon up even a tiny bit of engagement, that can change your whole manner from ‘ugh, why can’t this person talk about something interesting?’ (which is actively offputting to most people) to at least a kind of pleasant neutrality, if not enthusiasm. And ‘friendly neutrality’ is probably the most you really need–it’s certainly worlds better than ‘hostility’ or ‘visible boredom.’ This goes triple if your response isn’t ‘this topic is boring and stupid’ but ‘this person is boring and stupid.’ In general, people are really good at picking up if you think they’re boring or stupid (and most people who think they’re hiding their contempt/boredom are generally… not), so if that’s at all in your head when talking to people, I’d recommend being particularly aggressive in reframing it. (I don’t know that you do? But I have found that it’s often something that ‘smart people’ [scare quotes intentional] fall into.) Almost everyone you interact with will have something interesting about them, or will have some knowledge or skill that you don’t. You just may not have seen it yet–and part of the beauty of small talk and being friendly is going on a kind of scavenger hunt for the hidden interestingness of the people around you. Also, paying attention to social niceties (thanking people for things, smiling, saying ‘good morning,’ saying ‘excuse me,’ etc.) will go a long way towards making it easier. Again, you may already be doing this, and if so keep it up, but I know some of my coworkers consider it ‘a waste of time’ or ’empty words’… to their detriment. If you seem to be polite and friendly, people will cut you a ton of slack if you are otherwise shy or awkward. For me, I found that introversion is a pretty fixed trait–it isn’t for everyone, but it is for me, and frankly I have no particular interest in changing it. But social skills–making small talk, showing at least general acquaintance-ly interest in their lives, basic niceties, etc–can be learned. They’re skills like any other. It was really helpful to me to think of it as acquiring an incredibly useful skill rather than as changing my personality. One more tool in the toolbox is rarely a bad thing, but especially for a tool as multitasking as ‘getting along with people.’ (And it is an incredibly useful skill. Incredibly, incredibly useful.)
Turtle Candle* February 20, 2015 at 2:52 pm Posting separately in case the link gets it filtered, but this xkcd makes the point I’m trying to make with far more succinctness: http://xkcd.com/1480/
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 3:18 pm That was such an excellent comment – I learned a lot from it!! I really liked your analysis in your 2nd and 3rd paragraph. Now that you point it out, I completely understand what you mean by it and those people are very offputting. It actually reminded me of Sheldon from Big Bang!!! Though he’s an extreme example, I assume. Casey – listen to Turtle Candle – there is some really good stuff here.
Casey* February 23, 2015 at 4:32 am “I find that it’s a tendency of a lot of smart, geeky people to sort of categorize the world into ‘things that are interesting’ and ‘things that are not,’ and often to put a bunch of things that are super useful for developing social relationships (family, sports, weather, etc.) into category two.” Completely agreed. I tend to do this more naturally. It’ll be very challenging changing this habit.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 2:49 pm Just ask them questions and show that you’re really listening to what they’re saying. This sort of thing is rough, because you might not always be able to befriend your coworkers even if you haven’t done anything wrong. I work with two other women who are my age, and they’re 1) already very close, and 2) very similar to each other in ways that I can’t match. I’m not married and I don’t have kids. Plus (and this is rough), when you get to your late 20s, you enter a sort of mental landscape where, as nice as someone is, you’re just not interested in making new friends. Lots of people mentally close off their friend groups for no real reason and it’s not easy for new people to get in.
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 3:20 pm “you enter a sort of mental landscape where, as nice as someone is, you’re just not interested in making new friends. Lots of people mentally close off their friend groups for no real reason and it’s not easy for new people to get in.” I think this is a really insightful point. I have felt myself drifting toward that at times. Not wanting to invest in getting to know another mom at my kids’ daycare or something. Just cause, “meh, I have my friends. I’m good with what I have going on right now.” But that mentality does close us off to other people that we might click with. Good points.
CheeryO* February 20, 2015 at 4:30 pm Yeah, I work with some very nice women in their late 20s/early 30s, but I’m in a really different place in my life as a 25 year-old renter with no kids and a rocky relationship that doesn’t really lend itself to non-depressing chitchat. I am genuinely interested in their families and house adventures, but I have to keep reminding myself to ACT interested by asking questions/actively listening.
Turtle Candle* February 20, 2015 at 4:55 pm That’s very true. There’s also the fact that you don’t have to be friends with your coworkers to get along with them, you just need to be… friendly acquaintances, I guess? People with whom you have occasional pleasant interactions, but you’re never going to hang out with them after work or be a confidante or anything. That was something that took me a long time to get used to in the workplace, because in school the world (at least with regard to peers–teachers/professors/etc. are another matter) was sort of divided into ‘friends’ and ‘people you can basically ignore if you want.’ It took some time to realize that I could hit a middle ground with coworkers, be friendly without being friends exactly, that it wasn’t a failing if the relationship never got any deeper than a ‘good morning’ and maybe some brief small talk about what they or I did that weekend. I am fortunate enough at my current job to have a couple of genuine friends (although some people prefer to keep friendships and work entirely separate, I like having a couple of work friends). But most of my coworkers through all my jobs have been more ‘friendly acquaintances,’ and that’s fine.
Xarcady* February 21, 2015 at 10:07 am What has helped me, in similar circumstances, is to see inter-personal relationships as part of my job. While I would much rather cut the chit-chat and get down to business, I have found that learning that Susie in Department X has six cats actually makes it easier for me to go to Susie and ask her to make a gazillion changes in the teapot she just delivered to my department. I remember to ask about her cats, listen for a couple of minutes to the latest cat story, bring up the teapot, ask for the changes and we’re good. Whereas when I just walked over to Susie, pointed out all the errors and told her when I needed them fixed by (which, in my mind is all I should need to do), I got push-back and procrastination and late deliveries. Now, I’m known as easy to work with and easy to get along with–I temped at my current company for 6 months until a permanent opening came up and was told by the manager to apply, in large part because, “Everyone loves working with you and you get along so well with all the departments.” I feel like a heel sometimes, stopping by Alice’s desk to ask about the grandchildren, and commenting on the latest piece of small child artwork in Bob’s cubicle. They think I’m interesting in them and their doings. They don’t know that I’ve just realized I haven’t talked non-work stuff with them in several days and I’m just checking another item off my to-do list. (And I realize this makes me seem like an awful person.) But, the more you do this, the easier it becomes. I wish I didn’t have to be so rote about this. I wish I could be more natural at work. But in the long term, this is the best I’ve been able to do.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 2:02 pm As others have said, that “blacking out” only leads to widening the disconnect which leads to more introversion. It’s a self-feeding circle. I find that if I am not interested in what someone is saying usually with in five minutes that changes. Try to stay connected to the person you are talking to until you hit something of interest or something in common. Not what you asked, but I’d like to give a shout out to “established workers” (not necessarily older workers, but folks who are settled in to the work place) to look for the Caseys around you. I think this is something we have to be aware of and work at. We were once new to the workplace and feeling kind of alone to some degree. Keep striking up random conversations. Does not have to be long, nor deep. I have met some very cool people by doing this. Folks that have interests and do things I would never do, but it’s interesting to hear about their experiences. My friend and her coworker decided to tag-team a new employee. They each took turns showing her new stuff, talking about work issues and so on. The new employee blossomed. It turned into a very rich/rewarding experience for all three people. (I can’t go into detail here, but it was a much longer story with lots of heart-warming things happening. The new employee quickly became on equal footing with her informal mentors.)
Casey* February 23, 2015 at 4:25 am I’m beginning to see a silver lining, but am still having trouble understanding a few aspects. I’m a great listener and ask questions, but am very limited to response – usually having nothing to go on in comment – I’m thinking due to a lack of not getting out, having extremely limited interaction with the outside world. I’m not quite sure I’m getting the same types of responses given as examples. For instance, I could be talking, subject changes, then the person asks me a bunch of questions – and all I can muster are brief no’s. (Example: Do you have kids? Do you know where that bar is? Do you want to go out with us next time to that bar that you don’t know where it is? What would you sing for karaoke? Me: Sing for karaoke? What?! Me? Never! ‘barf’ …. pops anxiety meds … Other person: Starts talking about movie they saw. Me: What was it about/what was main theme/lesson/story? Other: “Not really sure” .. describes it. Me: Tells them what the movie was about. Them: Stares mouth on floor then states: “Your super smart, it’s kinda creepy” – walks away. Me: ????????????????????????????) This is about 99% of conversations with co-workers (when I have co-workers to interact with).
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm Mostly just a rant here but, man, are we having a ridiculous day. Our administrative staff is responsible for running the dishwasher here in the office. Recently they have been upset at the amount dirty dishes in the sink that they have to deal with in order to run the dishwasher. So this morning they found the most sympathetic member of management they could and asked to have something done about people leaving dirty dishes in the sink rather than putting them in the dishwasher. The management member agreed that it was unfair and maybe the company could add something to orientation about kitchen etiquette to help in the future. The admin staff felt this wasn’t helpful to the them right now and suggested they could put up a sign. The helpful management member admitted that might be necessary as a last resort. The admin staff took this as all the permission they needed and put up the following sign: No dishes are to be left in the sink. Any dishes in the sink at the end of the day will be thrown away. Did I mention that this is our busiest and most stressful time of the year? They also did this on a day when our elevator was going to out of service for several hours so management graciously brought in pizza for the entire company and every single member of management was guaranteed to see the sign. Our managing partner is furious and now more members of management have been drawn in to a discussion that never should have gotten this far.
Sadsack* February 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm Why aren’t people putting their dishes in the dishwasher? If it is embarrassing to have visitors and upper management see the sign, imagine how demeaning it is to have to clean off a coworker’s dirty dishes. I wouldn’t do it.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 2:57 pm I don’t think they know who isn’t cleaning their dishes which is frustrating. (And who is going to admit to it now?). But to go from asking for help at 8:30 in the morning to a sign saying they are going to throw other people’s property in the trash by 11:30 seems like a bit of an extreme escalation. That is not finding a solution that is becoming part of the problem.
jillociraptor* February 20, 2015 at 3:02 pm My first thought too. I’m on the other side of this issue right now, managing an admin who is feeling pretty crummy about how others have treated her as responsible for things that are really just normal adult responsibility (cleaning up after an event, for example). This is just basic “working in an office together” stuff to put your dishes away.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 3:27 pm How is it demeaning? I mean, I don’t think it’s fun, but I also don’t think it’s demeaning. It’s just a job – and one they are getting paid to do. There may be the odd person who isn’t putting their dishes in the dishwasher intentionally, but there may also be people who picked up the dishes from a 20 person meeting and didn’t have time, or who brought their dishes in while the dishwasher was running, or who wanted to soak that cooked-on oatmeal for an hour and forgot to go back.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 3:55 pm Yep, I don’t agree it’s demeaning either. I actually think it’s kind of demeaning to say that it’s demeaning — because that’s in some way demeaning to janitors, house cleaners, and others who do clean for a living. You might legitimately feel like you don’t want to do that particular work, but I don’t think it’s right to call someone else’s job inherently demeaning.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 4:18 pm Colette, your last paragraph does seem to be part of the problem. People who are upset about the sign have pointed out all those things to us. But we want to make sure that one person who forgot doesn’t turn into a dozen who think that is a signal to do the same.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 4:23 pm I absolutely think you can (and probably should) reiterate that everyone should take care of their own dishes. However, I also think you should remind the admins that this is not a personal affront – no one is out to get them, and they are being paid to clean up the mess, even if it’s not what they’d prefer to be doing.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:50 pm Yup. And that no sign or email is going to prevent that completely. All you can do is encourage people and then deal when they still fail.
HR Manager* February 20, 2015 at 4:27 pm More than just ‘not fun’ though – so I kind of get what the Sadsack means. I’m not anyone’s mother, father, servant or butler. What the heck? I already feel annoyed when I have to deal with messy coworkers (like the random guy who leaves half-filled cups in the conference rooms after a meeting. Who exactly is he thinking will come in and pick this up for him? And I know it’s a HIM). This is basic respect for your coworkers that you don’t ask them explicitly or implicitly to clean up after you like a baby.
Jessica* February 20, 2015 at 2:30 pm As as admin, I am so grateful I work somewhere where people take care of their own dishes. Admins aren’t maids. It won’t kill people to put their own dishes in the dishwasher. Sorry, not sorry.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm I agree that people should put their own dishes in the dishwasher. And we have assigned running the dishwasher to the admins but no one ever told them they were responsible for cleaning other people’s dishes. They are upset at the mess and I don’t blame them. What our managing partner is upset about is escalating immediately from other people’s dishes are a problem to we’ll just throw them away as a response.
Sadsack* February 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm Yeah, I might add that it “never should have gotten this far” because grown-ass people shouldn’t be making others in the office clean up their dishes. Doesn’t matter that it is the busy season, no one is too busy to scoop their own uneaten food into the garbage, rinse off their plate and put it in the dishwasher. The admins have the responsibility to run the dishwasher, but they should expect that all they have to do is add detergent and hit the start button. I find it infuriating on behalf of Bonnie’s admins that she is characterizing them as drama queens because she and the rest of her coworkers are too busy to clean up after themselves.
Sadsack* February 20, 2015 at 3:04 pm Sorry if that was over-emotional and over the line, but I take so much offense to the attitude in the post.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 4:15 pm Sadsack, I am sorry if I sounded unsympathetic in the post. I agree that there is a problem and I am happy to try to help them solve it. But the first time I knew there was a problem was when another staff member came to ask me if the sign was for real or a joke. Now, in addition to having discussions about what are we going to do to make sure that people clean their own dishes, I am having discussions about how we are going to handle the admin staff that went too far in trying to solve a problem while making sure they understand we want them to come to us with these problems.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 3:31 pm I think you’re really over-invested in this. Sure, everyone should be able to put their own dishes in the dishwasher, but they’re not doing that, and the admins are getting paid to deal with it (along with the rest of their job, of course). It’s worth having a discussion about what the expectations are, but the admins handled this badly.
Rebecca* February 20, 2015 at 2:57 pm Wait – you have a dishwasher, and a sink? We have nothing. At my office, if we need to wash a cup or dish, we use the bathroom sink. You are so lucky.
Elizabeth West* February 20, 2015 at 5:05 pm Gah! We have a dishwasher and cleaning crew run it at night. I don’t put my dishes in the dishwasher because they’re usually clean and no one puts them away–we just take them out as needed. They’re paying them to do that so I’m not doing it. If we did it, there would be no need for the house elves (I call them that because they come in at night and we don’t see them) and they’d be out of a contract. The only thing I typically leave is a cup and sometimes my tea strainer. Most people wash their containers and take them home, because the rule is if you leave stuff in the fridge when they’re cleaning it out, it gets pitched in the trash. Now that I read that, it sounds kind of entitled….but they do a good job keeping the break rooms clean. I should leave them a sock or something.
Xarcady* February 20, 2015 at 3:27 pm I suspect that at this busiest time of year, the admins are as stressed out as the rest of the staff–surely they are involved to some degree in helping out at the busiest time of the year. I also suspect that the dishes in the sink issue has been rankling for some time, and the added stress of the busiest time of the year threw this admin over the brink. No, the sign should not have been put up, and throwing out dishes as the first step in getting people to change their ways? Not on. But I think this sign is the symptom of a larger problem and while the admin should be told to take the sign down, something should be done a) to get people to act like grown-ups and put their dishes in the dishwasher and b) to help this admin realize that she needs to ask for help before things are at the breaking point, rather than after her personal breaking point has been reached.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 4:23 pm You are absolutely right that this period is stressful for everyone at the firm and that includes the admins. I also think that most of management didn’t know this problem existed because the admins were cleaning the dishes and putting them in the dishwasher so many of us in management who don’t use the kitchen on a regular basis didn’t really see dishes in the sink. Your point B is a very important one because we need them to know that their solution was inappropriate but we don’t want them to think that they can’t come to us with these problems.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 2:16 pm This, exactly. It was a pressure cooker waiting to pop. Everything in this story makes total sense. There was a problem brewing. No one did anything. Seemingly unrelated, stress built up because of other happenings. Someone blew their top. This problem should have been handled long before now. Since it is a fairly simple thing to fix, that to me says management was asleep at the switch. Yes, if managers ignore a festering problem there is a potential for an employee to take matters into their own hands. Honestly, I don’t see anything wrong with the sign. There is no maid service, get over it and clean up your own mess. Period. Done. I feel sorry for the admin in this story. She’s not getting the support she needs to do her job.
I'm not a control freak, I'm a control enthusiast.* February 20, 2015 at 3:27 pm Your poor admin staff! How (understandably) frustrated they must be with this situation. I hope that having this come to the attention of higher management will result in a better solution, since the member of management they initially approached seems to have been rather unhelpful. And of course, that your colleagues will behave better in future and not leave their dirty dishes for the admin staff to deal with. Because yuck!
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 4:29 pm I think this is an instance where email communication hurt the situation. The manager they presented their problem to was very much on their side. She thought they were having a dialog to figure out how solve the problem. I think if they had come to talk to her in person they would have realized that and not have gone so far in trying to solve the problem without management’s help.
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 3:37 pm I know this isn’t very environmentally friendly, but during really crazy busy times (product launches, pre-holiday, FY end, etc.), our admin sometimes puts paper plates, bowls, and cups and plastic cutlery in the kitchen with a sign inviting people to use them and politely reminding everyone that no dishes are to be left in the sink, even during peak times. It’s a small thing, but I think it really does improve everyone’s quality of life a bit at an otherwise hectic time. Could your office consider something like this?
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 4:40 pm Actually we have both. I have to be honest that I don’t use the kitchen much and when I do, I use paper. So I don’t really know how we got here. But I am learning more that I ever wanted to know about how my co-workers handle food and dishes.
Kate* February 20, 2015 at 5:20 pm I’m confused as to why this would even be a problem. It takes an equal amount of time to put a dirty dish in the dishwasher as it would to put it in the sink. Or that’s what my mother always said anyway ;) I don’t have a dishwasher at work or at home so I’m lucky not to have this problem. Maybe the offender doesn’t realize that the dishwasher is empty/partially full of dirty dishes? Get one of those magnets that you can flip between clean/dirty, and have whoever empties the clean dishwasher flip it when they’re done.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:53 pm This might be an unpopular opinion, but: My admin’s job is to wash the dishes. It takes 5 minutes to wash the leftover coffee mugs, etc. and a whole lot longer to get upset about it and try to figure out who didn’t rinse their water glass and then get a supervisor involved to mediate. We are just not doing that. It’s also demoralizing to have people running around the office being angry at each other. Most people wash their own dishes, but the admin washes what is left. Part of her job is to keep the office tidy, whatever that takes. I have a very firm rule that there are No. Angry. Signs. Nobody likes to walk around their workplace and see signs (which are often passive aggressive) telling them what to do and reminding them times that people were pissed about something. It’s not pleasant or professional. This is exactly why I’m so firm about both of these things.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 2:22 pm In small work places, this makes a lot of sense. In the larger places I have worked (100 or so employees) the angry signs went up. Well, they had to be angry signs, because gentle signs did not work at all. So the sign would read “if you do not do X, then Y will happen.” I don’t think that is passive, that is pretty direct really. Sadly, those are the only signs that worked. But in small workplaces people should be able to talk to one another. In your example here the admin is probably actually only spending 5 minutes a day doing this. But if the admin is supposed to spend 5 minutes and ends up spending more time than that, then that is a situation that needs to be addressed.
Jules* February 23, 2015 at 10:20 am Wait, your admins are paid to do dishes at work? I am amazed. We have a signed on the wall that says, ‘There are no dishwashing service. Please clean up after yourself.” In my other workplace which has a dishwasher, my boss would run it when she adds her stuff to it but she doesn’t load anyone’s dishes. If there are too many clutter on the counters, the email will go out to ask the responsible party to deal with it or it would get thrown out. I don’t understand why anyone would get upset about cleaning after themselves. I don’t care how high up there you are, there is no maid service at work. If you are part of the big wig, your secretary would have dealt with it anyways. Why are adults upset about being told to act like an adult?
SR* February 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm I could really use the hive’s help with something fairly time sensitive. I’m job hunting and received an email this morning asking me to come in for an interview – yay! The problem is that the email began “Hello Jane.” (My name is Wakeenette.) Any suggestions on professional but friendly language for saying something like “I’d love to come in for an interview but wanted to make sure you meant me, since I noticed you said Jane in your email”? Thanks!! (If it matters, the email was sent as a reply to my initial resume and cover letter email, not as a separate email, which I think makes it slightly more likely that they really did mean to email me but used the wrong name, as opposed to using the right name but sending it to the wrong email address. But I do of course want to leave room for either possibility and avoid making the person feel uncomfortable.)
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 1:54 pm I’d write something pretty close to what you did. Maybe: “Thanks for the invitation, I’d be happy to come in for an interview. I do want to double check that this email was intended for me, though, since it was addressed to Jane and I’m Wakeenette. My availability is _________, please let me know what works for you.” Hope you get the interview and it goes well!
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 3:28 pm Good luck! (I’m assuming it was a copy/paste error.)
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:01 pm That’s my guess. I’m always afraid of doing those, and I maniacally check rejections in particular because that’s the worst place to have a name mistake.
MaryMary* February 20, 2015 at 4:52 pm Something like this happened to me once. I got an email inviting me to interview (with my actual name), and then a second email regarding a totally different position, addressed to another person. I sent the second email back to the recruiter saying that it appeared there had been an error, and confirming the interview information in the first email. It was no big deal.
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 1:49 pm I’m having a coworker problem and am hoping for some advice. I have a coworker, let’s call her Jane, who has the longest tenure in our group. I’m the team lead, and also the youngest person on the team by a wide margin. We’ve just gotten a new boss after a year-long project to overthrow the terrible old boss, so there’s a lot of upheaval, and Jane doesn’t deal with that well. She’s increasingly looking to me for emotional support, in ways that I don’t think are appropriate, and it’s starting to affect my productivity. For example, the other day she couldn’t get the handle to attach to the teapot. We are the teapot setup and repair department, so this is a totally normal part of the job. If she asked me “hey, is there a trick to these handles?” I’m happy to assist. Instead she came to me three separate times during the day, complaining about how difficult these handles are, and she didn’t have time in her day to deal with this, and isn’t it awful? I didn’t know of a trick for these handles, and she eventually figured it out on her own. She can do this stuff, she’s just making a production out of it. She also tends to panic and get frustrated with everyone and everything when she encounters an obstacle that is new to her. This is emotionally draining for me, and distracting from the piles of my own work I need to do. We’re in the same office on an irregular schedule, and at this point I expect to not get much done on days when she’s in. She walks over to complain to me at least once an hour. So far I’ve tried giving her very non-committal “hmm” reactions when she’s looking for me to hold her hand and do her job for her. She’s not one to take a hint, though. I’ve asked our new manager for ideas (making it clear that I don’t need them to get actively involved at this point) and they suggested making myself less available by closing my office door or marking myself ‘busy’ on chat, gently telling her that I need to focus on what I’m doing right now and can we talk later, and suggesting that she take specific complaints to the manager. I’m hoping to avoid a blunt ‘look, I need you to do your job without having an emotional meltdown on me’ conversation because the backlash would be bad, but if it needs to happen, it needs to happen. I’m pretty frustrated. Anyone here have insights? Worked with someone like that? What helped for you?
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:53 pm It sounds like there’s room to be clearer. “Jane, is there specific help you’re looking for? I’m happy to answer any actionable question, but it seems like you’re just looking to vent, so I’m asking you not to interrupt me for that.”
No name this time* February 20, 2015 at 2:54 pm Oh Lord….no advice, but coworker like this was let go for alcohol abuse, so we got “lucky” no longer having to deal with the drama and round about ways of asking for help without really wanting help, and of always hearing of how difficult stuff is. It is indeed hard to do complicated work whilst drunk!
HR Manager* February 20, 2015 at 4:04 pm Sounds like she’s stuck in the resistance phase on the change curve (reference the 4 stages of change and change management, if you have no idea what I’m talking about). This is not uncommon when someone is going through some type of organizational change. While you can (and have been) play a role in helping her to move forward and to accept the new boss. Is there something you can give to her, like a cheat sheet that would help her become more self-sufficient rather than coming to you each time? Otherwise, I would suggest setting up some boundaries — like I have to finish this right now, do you mind if I help you with that later (and pick a time for her to bundle all her issues with handles in one sitting)? I would also let the manager know that Jane seems to be struggling and that while you’re happy to help, it’s becoming a distraction. Ask the new boss what his suggestions are. The manager should be the one leading the employee through the emotional/morale aspects of the change, so the boss should be stepping up once s/he knows this information.
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 5:33 pm Oh, that makes sense! Even though the change is a good one and she’s at least verbally enthusiastic about the new boss, I’m sure the process still applies. She worked with the toxic ex-boss for more than 10 years – it was nasty, but stable. The new boss is pretty savvy, when I spoke to them they said there’s probably some insecurity about being heard and valued underlying Jane’s behavior (no duh!), and they’ll be able to mitigate that to some extent. The trick will be for me to draw lines around how much support I am willing to give her and stay out of bitch-eating-crackers territory.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm When she comes to you for a problem ask her what she has tried so far. If she has not tried anything, tell her that she has to try a couple ideas before coming to you. Say what you said here, that you know she can come up with good ideas. You could ask her if she is feeling a little stressed with all the changes and talk about how it’s normal to feel stress with changes. Sometimes just saying something is normal is enough to get people thinking. As her lead, you can remind her of what you can and cannot fix. “It’s not in my scope to get the ceiling painted, Jane. That is Bob’s job to keep the building maintained. We won’t worry about the paint on the ceiling.” Keep in mind that she IS coming to you. I think it would be a worse problem for her to be going behind your back, badmouthing everyone in sight. She is coming to you so that means she has some faith in you. It might work in your favor to talk about your insights about the New Boss. Tell her the positive things you are seeing. Let her know that you feel optimistic (IF that is true). I know the last time I got a new boss, I relied on my immediate supervisor to let me know how good or bad things were going. We all did and we should not have. Your answer maybe to simply give her the reassurances she is looking for. “Oh New Boss is ordering that gizmo we have always wanted. New Boss seems to care about what we think.” The more of these random tidbits you can give her, the more you will see her start to calm down, that’s my thought.
T* February 20, 2015 at 1:51 pm Does anybody have advice about working in a school? I”ll be a bit vague and say that I’m not a teacher, admin or custodian. I’m pretty new to my role and I’m enjoying it much more than I thought I would, but I find myself struggling with the “school” aspects of my job. Especially with dealing the principal. Because I’ve never worked in a school, I’m honestly not even sure how to interact with her. I’ve always worked in places really specific to my field, where I was able to ask the managers questions about little things that I didn’t know about when I first started — because they’re basically experts in the field. Where it’s not quite the same, the principal here sort of seems “above it all” and is, of course, busy doing her important work and is rarely here (okay, not to sound like a complete jackass, but I’m not even sure if I properly understand what a principal does). I’m not sure when I should ask the principal something, or when to ask the assistant principal, or when to ask the admins. Sorry if this kind of sounds vague and ranty, but I just feel confused about the hierarchy in schools.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 2:07 pm I’m in a university, but I think there may be similar conditions here. If so, you’re looking at a flat hierarchy and a workplace that expects a lot of autonomy from the staff rather than a lot of reporting or even asking up the chain. In a place like that, I’d definitely start with the admins and see if they can help illuminate the reporting and asking norms, because they’re likeliest to see them. I’ve internalized the structure so completely that it’s hard for me to be objective about it, but I would almost never go directly to the top person with a question–that’s like going to the CEO. Mostly my conversations with that level would be either within meetings (though they could be meetings I initiated) or things the top-level person initiated.
Xarcady* February 20, 2015 at 3:11 pm My sister is a database administrator for a private high school. She reports directly to the head IT person. Do you report directly to the principal or someone else? In general, the admins are your go-to people for the small details on how things are done, or how to get things done. In most academic settings, admins keep things running. They will also probably have a very good idea of who you should ask about specific issues. Specific job-related questions should probably be asked of whomever you report to. However, if that is the principal, then maybe ask the vice-principal first. And it wouldn’t hurt to schedule a meeting with the principal and ask her some of these questions–when should you contact her directly and when would contacting someone else be more appropriate?
T* February 20, 2015 at 4:16 pm I think that’s what I find confusing about my role, essentially I’m the only person who has this role. So ultimately I don’t report to anyone (aside from the principal)? I’ve found the admin assistants to be lifesavers though. I think I’m finding the unavailability of a “boss” to be the most jarring part of my position? It’s just a work culture thing that I have to get used to though.
Xarcady* February 20, 2015 at 4:33 pm I think some of this depends on what type of school this is. In a private school, yes, probably the principal is the person you report to. But if this is a public school, is there anyone in the school district administration that is, well maybe not your supervisor, but someone who could mentor you a bit? I’m thinking if you are the entire IT department for the school, is there an IT department in the school district? You could get to know people there and get answers to some of your questions from them. If this is a private school, then I’ll repeat my suggestion of scheduling a meeting with the principal. Just be honest and explain that you are trying to figure out how things work, does she want you to report on every little thing, should some reports to the the assistant principal, the guidance counselor, etc.? Approach it from “I want to do my job well, but in these new circumstances, I’m not sure of exactly how.”
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:48 pm Yeah, a lot of people in my building are functionally bossless, including me; most of what I do just isn’t important enough to take up space with the person I technically report to, so I run pretty much autonomously as long as I don’t wreck any trains. If you like it, it’s a great arrangement, but it may take some getting used to.
Lizzie* February 20, 2015 at 4:26 pm Ask the admins, because they know everything. I also ask questions of the assistant principal, school social worker, and the head of my department far more than my principal – I find that they tend to be more accessible (both in terms of being less busy and less blunt). As long as you don’t work in a nightmare school, nobody’s going to get mad that you asked the “wrong” person.
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 1:38 am I’ve been working in schools almost my entire professional life, including both public and private schools. I would say if the principal is too busy to be bothered with details, stop asking for permission/advice and just stuff and keep her informed. If you keep her informed, she’ll let you know if something you’re doing is way off the mark. That said, someone doesn’t have to be your supervisor to give you guidance. Do you have a peer or other co-worker who knows the school well (or knows well how the principal operates) whom you can bounce ideas off of? Again, you’re not necessarily asking for approval here—you’re just getting a second opinion and operating autonomously.
Laurie* February 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm Back in mid-2011, I was laid off of my management position within a large international corporation. After that, I found another position within a vendor that provides services to corporations as a Director of Production Services a few months after my layoff. Well, I was laid off only six months later after I laid off most of my staff. I had struggled to find a new position as a manager or even a lower level position due to my extensive management experience. I would get tons of in-person interviews; however, not one offer. I was asked a lot about leaving if I found a new position that is a step up. I am a firm believer if there are opportunities for promotion, I will be loyal. Well, apparently that did not work. I had several contract positions that helped fill the gap until I found a full-time position which is a not a management position but high level technical position. I have found that I really enjoy being a manager or director within organizations. I have been applying for management and director level positions when they are available where I am qualified for. I hardly get a call from those positions. I am not sure if my resume is being stuck in the application databases etc. How can I get back into a management or director role after having to take a step or two back in my career due to the recession? How can I get my resume to pop in those databases?
Chief Detail Officer* February 20, 2015 at 10:35 pm Laurie, Do a Google search for: Lou Adler Have you heard of the hidden job market? He has great advice about “finding the backdoor”, because your chances of getting an interview and being hired increase greatly compared to just sending your resume through the normal channels. “Spend at least 80% of your time finding a key to the back door. Unless you’re a perfect fit you will not get an interview by applying directly to a job posting. So don’t waste your time.”
Anon for this* February 20, 2015 at 2:15 pm Is it common to have a 90 day new hire style review with your supervisor after a promotion? Mine was a title and pay bump, but nothing about my job has changed. The bumps were given as an acknowledgement that the work I’d been doing was more closely fitted to that title, and the title change meant a pay increase. My supervisor has a history of giving Her direct reports meetings with negative feedback when something unrelated makes her angry, and she tends to get aggravated when budget related things come up. I had to broach a budget question to her this week, knowing she would not like having to go over it with me but needing the info, and *immediately* after the conversation she sent me an email scheduling a 90 day review. Is it normal to even have such a meeting in the first place? I’m not sure how worried I should be. If it were anyone else I wouldn’t be troubled, but this is ominous considering the source.
Karowen* February 20, 2015 at 2:22 pm The timing is weird, but a 90-day review sounds normal to me. It may be something that she has to do as a formality, even though you’re essentially in the same position just with a more accurate title.
WithaZ* February 20, 2015 at 2:23 pm Happy Friday! I just got an unexpected internal promotion to a project management position. While I’m so excited and believe I have the skills to succeed, my project management experience is limited and this is a new position at my company in this particular division. Any suggestions for websites or books that would be helpful to an entry level project manager?
HistoryChic* February 20, 2015 at 2:24 pm I am about 7 months in a new position (which I love) for a company that is the largest company I have ever worked for. (I went from 6 employees to one with 1500!) Every year my current organization holds a talent show to raise money for a scholarship fund. Before everyone gets upset about having a talent show…it isn’t forced. People who work for the organization and their talented families can opt to participate if they want. It is accompanied by a dinner. That said, my department organizes it and always participates in it in someway. From what I gather, usually a dance routine of sorts. I do feel like I have to participate in that aspect of it, but am totally fine with it. I think it will be fun. My question is….do any of the highly creative and talented folks here have ideas for a group talent show at work? I’ve been trolling around the internet for ideas to bring to the table and haven’t come up with much. :-)
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 2:45 pm I’m not sure you’re going to find many folks here who can even fathom doing it voluntarily.
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 2:51 pm If you’re comfortable getting really close to coworkers, there’s an optical illusion dance that is fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16ZvkOkXo It’s apparently a German folk tradition. There’s also synchronized (air) swimming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNaPsfMXHUY And the good old “act out Mario” skit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGQ20yDDVzQ Have fun! :-D
beckythetechie* February 20, 2015 at 10:06 pm Given the diverse nature of many teams, can you come up with some kind of “100 Years of Dance” and set up pairs/groups to do different dances from different eras? Start with something like the Charleston, then move forward a few years to a Foxtrot, then Swing, etc. on up to “Thriller” or the Cha-Cha Slide, some big easy-to-learn line-dance that would get everyone back out? That way if Ethel the 73 year old cleaning lady wants to get in on the action, she just has to scrounge up a dancer partner that remembers how to Jive and she’s set, and those coworkers that might have two left feet can at least follow the music to “jump to the left and a step to the riiiiiiiiiiight”.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 2:28 pm I’m about to attend a conference in a city where I have a few friends I haven’t seen in several years due to distance. The scheduled times for the conference are over regular business hours, but often other coworkers or even supervisors will invite me to go get dinner, drinks, etc with them afterwards. We usually have one meal scheduled all together and then it’s a patchwork of groups splintering off together the other nights. The thing is that I’d really like to have dinner with my friends on the two non-scheduled nights, but I feel like it may not be kosher to turn down one of our big bosses if they invite me to go with their group for something personal. I know you’re allowed down time on a work trip (especially one spanning nearly a week) but I haven’t been at this long enough to know if this is considered ok or not? If it’s relevant, the unscheduled nights are played totally by ear on the afternoon of the same day. It’s usually just people I already work with, no they’re not entirely networking dinners or anything but once they did invite some big names from a different institute.
soitgoes* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm Could you have lunch with your friends instead? It’s not ideal, but I don’t think it would be wise to miss a dinner with your bosses.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 5:47 pm Probably not, they’re a good 40 minutes away from where I’ll be.
Bonnie* February 20, 2015 at 3:09 pm Generally where I work it is fine. We generally let the group know before we go that we have friends or family in area and one night we would like to have dinner with them. Often if I am making plans with my staff for dinner in the afternoon it is part of making sure that no one has dinner alone unless they so chose. If I knew you had friends you wanted to see my invitation would be more like, “Jane, Wakeen and I are going to dinner later, if you are not meeting your friends tonight would you like to go with us?”
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 4:07 pm I think the no one eating alone thing is a big part of it. We split off into lots of groups and often that means the junior folks go out in small parties and the higher ups go out in separate small parties, but they always make sure any junior staff that don’t have plans have been invited to dinner by someone so no one’s stranded. Even on the nights with scheduled meals they seem open to the junior staff doing their own thing… Now that I think about it, one night last year I was the only junior staffer who showed up at the second dinner. The thing is that in all those cases the junior folks were going out together, or they were Skyping with their kids or something. The other part is because those are the folks who have the company credit cards and they can buy our meals so we don’t have to wait for reimbursement. They really look out for us on these trips! It makes them fun instead of stressful, and I really appreciate that they focus on that. But that’s also making it hard for me to tell how much of the invites are more compulsory and which are just to make sure we’re comfortable. The junior folks who have been here longer than me do seem to bow out of more things than I ever do, maybe I should take that hint from them.
Persephone Mulberry* February 20, 2015 at 3:31 pm Two evenings out of how many? Two out of four seems like a lot, two out of 6, more reasonable.
MaryMary* February 20, 2015 at 4:41 pm Could you do drinks with one group and dinner with the other? Either meet your friends for happy hour before dinner or a nightcap after, or spend time with your bosses for a drink or two, and excuse yourself to meet your friends?
SanguineAspect* February 20, 2015 at 2:29 pm Random “did I do the right thing” question. My company is the official tech partner of another company, but because I’m relatively new, I haven’t had the chance to meet everyone yet. Earlier today I was in a meeting with our partner and our mutual client. I was the only one from my company physically present in the room; our more sr. leadership (including my boss) and the clients were on the phone. We had the meeting with the clients, the phone was hung up, and someone in Sr. leadership on our partner’s side blurted out “we need to watch Sr. Leader X. He’s really been getting on my nerves. I’m not thrilled with him right now, and we’re going to have a conversation about it.” There was also a lot of eye-rolling and gesturing while my boss was on the phone and was talking. It was EXTREMELY rude and unprofessional, and I’m not sure if our partner just didn’t realize I worked for MY company and not his, or if he really just is that rude and didn’t care who heard him. I didn’t say anything to him directly, but I did give my boss a heads up. Should I have said something? I don’t want to stir the pot at ALL (they’re pretty much top-of-foodchain in their companies), but I also felt that if I were my boss, I’d want to know.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:48 pm I think you did the right thing. What your boss does with the information you’ve given is up to her/him.
The Cosmic Avenger* February 20, 2015 at 2:57 pm I’m used to clients, not partners, so I’d have done the same thing, act like I saw nothing and heard nothing out of the ordinary, then given a detailed account to my boss. But if your employer is the tech “partner”, that mostly means vendor, right, so this other company really is your client then? In that case I might even be a little more proactive to make sure that my company knew about it, because you don’t want to lose a big client.
SanguineAspect* February 20, 2015 at 3:30 pm Our relationship is…complicated. We’re this company’s official “tech partner” (they’re a marketing firm with no in-house technical teams). Our CTO and their CTO are old buddies and have been doing business together for a long time. This sr-level person in the meeting isn’t the CTO, but is the COO, so he has some pull at the top-levels of the company. The relationship is definitely symbiotic, but I’d say we probably get at least 50% of our business through our relationship with them at this point. So you’re absolutely right–maintaining good relations is key.
SanguineAspect* February 20, 2015 at 2:58 pm Thanks, BiT. That makes me feel better. My boss hasn’t responded to that email (he’s out of town), but has responded to other emails related to that meeting, so I’ve been a little paranoid about it.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 2:55 pm No. Do not say anything on stuff like this. All he did was tell you that he was PO’ed and let you know what was coming up next. He knew he planned to have a tough conversation and he was cuing you to expect it. He did not care what anyone thought. Unless you have first hand knowledge on a given thing, it’s best to just be silent. Try to remember that this is their relationship with each other and has very little to do with you. I think you are saying you told your boss about the eye rolling and gesture later on, that is fine. Hopefully he gave you something to go on, such as “yeah, Frank is like that. I know this.” OR “Frank and I had a difference of opinion but we are working on it.”
Daydreamer* February 20, 2015 at 2:39 pm This is kind of related to C Average’s post (first one), but a little bit of a different angle. Hope this isn’t too repetitive. I’m so happy to read this post and the associated comments. For a while in my role (past teapotmaker communications type role at a university – I’ve been here for over 5 years now, with a year pause when my daughter was born) I was very enthusiastic – I took it as challenging and was eager to do things, try new things, and do whatever I could to make things work with the others involved in what I do (other departments, others in teapot maker communications). But in the year before my daughter was born, the frustrations were building — struggling to get buy-in, feeling like I wasn’t accomplishing much, and slowly developing an apathy for everything around my job. Add to that a lack of direction, guidance and support from my two bosses (my role is funded between two departments, so I have two bosses), a lack of buy-in and interest from others I needed to work with (no time, no money, not my job mentality), a very challenging audience to reach out to, and it made for a very frustrating time. The frustration has continued in the year I’ve been back, and I’m struggling to find enough of a “spark” to keep me going. Thankfully my husband is starting to see that it’s not my lack of accomplishments (I’ve done some really good things), but the lack of direction and support and everything else that’s making it hard to sort out my annual plan and to stay inspired and interested in what I’m doing. I am considering a job change, but my husband is currently looking for a new role (that’s a story unto itself), and we’re not sure if we’ll have to relocate. And the perks that come with my current job (flexibility schedule-wise, able to deal with my daughter’s daycare illnesses and snow days, ability to work from home if necessary) are some that I’m in no rush to leave until I have something to move on to (run to something, not away from something). In the meantime, I’m doing some leadership development courses to hopefully inspire me. So to make a long story short: How do you find that “spark” to keep you going when it’s not the right time to move on due to outside factors? How do you start to care again?
hildi* February 20, 2015 at 3:42 pm Oh my gosh, Daydreamer, you and I are the same person, different jobs. But your second to last paragraph there is EXACTLY what I’ve been struggling with, too. I do want to move into something different, but I’m kind of afraid of leaving this gig behind because I don’t know if I’ll ever this level of autonomy and flexibility back and I’m scared of cutting off my nose to spite my face (is that the right one to use here?). I don’t know the answer to finding the spark, unless the answer is that maybe you won’t be getting the spark back in your job until you find something different, so maybe focus on something in your life in general that makes you happy? Hobby you can do at home, your daughter, weekends, etc. I know that’s somewhat unsatisfying (because it is to me – I don’t feel like I have time for all that fun stuff in my personal life!). Maybe here’s what I’m trying to say: We all have a desire to make meaning. Most of us get that need fulfilled through our jobs, many don’t. But maybe we should just be ok with (for now) the meaning making to happen in places that aren’t our day job. Is that an ok thing to live with for the time being until things settle.
Daydreamer* February 20, 2015 at 8:54 pm A “work to live, not live to work” attitude, hildi? I’m trying to hang onto that. :) I love my weekends with my family and doing fun things, and I love picking my daughter up at daycare at the end of the day. There are days, though, where I feel like I wear the frustration and “WTF??” and stuff home, and I don’t want that to affect my girl. I’m glad that I”m not the only one facing the “Should I stay or should I go?” — I really don’t want to lose this flexibility, and I don’t know where to find it outside of where I’m at. Well, kindred spirit, shall we find some inspiration outside our workplaces? :)
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 3:11 pm This is the reason why I kind of reject the idea of being passionate about one’s job. It’s kind of like a long term marriage, passion can fizzle. What’s left? Commitment. Commitment will carry you when passion gets tired and wants to take a nap. So. Take pride in doing your job well every day. Tell yourself that you are deeply satisfied to have learned so much about this job that is now second nature to you. Tell yourself you are strong. Lots of people quit looong before they reach the point you are at now. Remind yourself that you are earning a living to support and grow your family life. Take pride in the fact that others find you reliable, trustworthy, creative, sharp, whatever. And quit looking for spark. Sparks are fleeting. They go a way, just like a good coffee buzz. It’s temporary. You will end up disappointed over and over, not unlike the aftermath of a good coffee buzz, where you drop lower than where you were before the coffee. And start looking around to see if you can help the people around you in new ways. (This is hard and the ideas do not come up that often, so give yourself breathing room here.)
Daydreamer* February 21, 2015 at 7:48 pm Not So NewReader, I’m trying to maintain a sense of commitment, but with the frustrations I’ve been dealing with for the last four years continuing and lack of support and direction, it’s hard to feel committed 100% to what I’m doing. I’m about 75% right now. A fleeting spark would be fantastic! Even if it’s just for a short time, I’d like to feel enthusiastic and invested and interested and creative again! (Thinking again, maybe “spark” isn’t the right word to use… not sure what is off the top of my head…) Just a little something to get me going again would be so nice so I can stop mentally checking out. And I’m not sure how much of that has to come from me, and how much of it would have to come from those around me. I will continue reminding myself what I’ve done well to date, and what obstacles I’ve dealt with.
Not So NewReader* February 22, 2015 at 6:04 pm I think most people are about 75% committed to their jobs. I also think that you might have unbearable externals that mean it’s time to move on. In other words, it sounds like it is not you. Sadly, I believe that if the externals will not change, then it is up to me to find ways not to be checking out. Other people could have better ideas on this, though. One thing I have tried is to influence change on those externals that are causing me to check out. You might be able to gain a little ground there. Pick your battles strategically. Don’t take on something if you feel you will not win. And I will say, this is a hell of a way to live. When you have to stand there and argue that the AC needs fixing because it’s not apparent to anyone else that a 85 degree room is not comfortable, it can feel like you are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Why am I standing here explaining obvious things???? grr. Picking these battles and working on them did do one thing for me. It verified that leaving was the best plan. I should say, in fairness, that there were actually some battles I won. The amount of energy I put into the battle left me so drained, I had nothing left to enjoy the victory with. I felt no victory. Just some random thoughts. They may or may not apply to your setting that well.
Daydreamer* February 23, 2015 at 8:56 am Your thoughts do apply – thank you. There seems to be more outside factors (managers, other departments, administrators, etc.) that are making what I want to do very challenging. The likelihood that I’ll be moving on in the next year is growing, but I’m giving myself another six months to try a different approach to see if it helps at all. Battles are being picked, but with such different workplace cultures and personalities, I’m cautious in my optimism. How were you able to influence change? Thanks. :) I really appreciate your thoughts on this!
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm Hubby is an ambitious, love-to-work IT professional that started his own business at age 20 and merged it with Company X in 2011. Last December, Company X let him go, but hubby saw it coming as there was dissatisfaction on both sides. Hubby has laid low for about three months, as a client of Company X has been talking about an employment opportunity with hubby and a severance agreement prolonged ties with Company X until February 2nd. Now all ties with Company X are severed and oil-business Client has offered a 30-day renewable employee contract instead of full-time employment, due to the price of oil. Hubby is hesitant to accept the contract position, as he thinks it will look bad on his resume, having a short-time contract gig. However, it is paying 47% more than Company X and he’s seeking an executive position (which I know can take months). Oil-business Client has executive/stockholder potential in the next four years, but even if the month-to-month is ended due to finances, it’s still cash in hand while he looks for something else. What’s your opinion about a short term contract gig on an executive’s resume?
SanguineAspect* February 20, 2015 at 3:11 pm Hey BiT! I’m not anywhere close to an executive level myself, but I’ve worked with consultants in the IT/software development space who were former-business-owners-turned-contractor. I wouldn’t bat an eyelash about seeing that. There’s no saying that he couldn’t still look for other employment during those 30 days, and maybe he could let his Client know that because it’s a 30 day contract, he won’t be able to stop interviewing elsewhere (though he’d really love to work for Client, of course). At the end of 30 days, if they want to bring him on full time, excellent. If not, your husband’s still been actively looking for work. He also doesn’t HAVE to put the 30-day contract work on his resume if it doesn’t pan out. No one would think twice about someone who got laid off taking some time to find a new job, especially at an executive’s level.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 4:25 pm Good point – it doesn’t have to go on the resume, and assuming the ‘one month job searching for every $10k in salary earned’ rule of thumb applies, we’re looking at least another 4 months or more of job searching. A seven month gap would not be unusual.
HR Manager* February 20, 2015 at 3:53 pm It happens – I don’t think it’s a problem at all, as long as it’s a gig that makes sense. Consulting on high level stuff, or projects that require knowledge and experience to pull off (not just labor) wouldn’t cause me to blink at all. It’s not like they’re asking him to work the helpdesk, right?
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 4:56 pm His title at Company X was VP of Infrastructure, but part of his dissatisfaction with the company was lack of actual authority to execute anything. The Oil-business Client is looking to hire someone to step in and provide the service that Company X has been supplying, not to their complete satisfaction. So yes, the duties would include helpdesk, because he’ll be the one-man IT department. But he’d also have to know what he was doing, because he’ll be supporting roughly 80 people remotely and 10 people locally, who work for two different companies that are related, but must keep separate equipment. He’d be handling everything from “my email isn’t working” to “we’re going to be setting up an office at this remote site and you’re in charge of getting everything they need” and the phone company doesn’t even have copper lines out there yet. At first, the job wasn’t very tasteful to him, returning to being The IT Guy, but the Client asked him for his compensation plan and he laid out what he needed to be happy – a salary near $100k, flexible schedule, remote work accessibility, etc. He also laid out his desire to have the authority to run the show as he sees fit, with plans for hiring people, authority to source hardware/software and expressed his goal of becoming the CIO of the company in time. Thinking they’d balk at the salary (but having an idea of what they’re paying Company X every month), he was pleasantly surprised that they tentatively came back with $10k less in salary, and they’d make up the difference in company stock and bonuses. They liked everything else in his plan. The opportunity to build the IT department himself, hold company stock and become the CIO appeals to him. Now the offer is his original salary request, but month-to-month employment, no benefits, and he’d get 30 day notice of cancellation of the contract. I suppose the title of what he’ll be doing can be changed to be anything – given that his actual duties and title at Company X didn’t align either.
A Non* February 20, 2015 at 5:46 pm So if he continues looking for other work, the story line will be something like “built a company, sold a company, doing some consulting work in former company’s area of expertise for a bit while looking for the next big thing” – that sounds totally normal to me. It sounds like this gig isn’t a step down from what he was doing, and even if it is it’s entirely expected to spend a while regrouping between one business enterprise and the next.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 3:16 pm I am not expert but I think he should go for it. Don’t worry about how it looks on the resume. That is small potatoes compared to the rest of the story. He should go and show them his best. Seriously.
araminty* February 20, 2015 at 2:45 pm Yay, perfect timing – I have a question for you all, this just happened yesterday. You know when you don’t get hired, and the recruiter says that they really liked you, it was just [reasons], and they’d keep your resume on file and call you if anything came up? Well, something came up! I applied for a job in an animal shelter about this time last year. I had a phone screen, but they were looking for different skills, blah blah, and they didn’t even invite me to interview in person. But they contacted me this week saying there was a job available that I would be a good fit for! Obviously, I’m extremely flattered. I’ve looked at the position description, and asked the recruiter the salary range (it’s $50-55K). But: I started a new job in August, that’s six months ago, salary of $37K. It’s going OK, but there are aspects of it that I actively dislike. I told myself I could start looking for a new job THIS August if I still wasn’t enjoying it. It’s not what I expected going in, basically. And this isn’t necessarily a job I’d ordinarily be attracted to, I mean, if I’d been actively job-searching, I might not even have applied for it. It’s also at least a 45 min commute (currently it’s 15 minutes against traffic, rare in the Bay Area!) Maybe we could move…? I should get back to the recruiter today. Thoughts welcome!
Xarcady* February 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm I’d at least have the first interview for the animal shelter job. If you don’t like your current job and this one seems like a good fit, you can change jobs. If the animal shelter job isn’t a good fit, you stay where you are for another six months. There’s the possibility of a better job and significantly more money, so I’d at least explore the opportunity. then make your final decision weighing all the factors, including the increased commute. (45 minutes isn’t outrageous. My last office moved and my commute changed from 7 minutes if I hit all the traffic lights red to 45 minutes and I was surprised at how quickly I adapted to the increased time spent in the car. This was also when I discovered podcasts and starting listening to them while commuting.)
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:08 pm It sounds like you’re at least interested enough to continue with the process; you don’t need to decide whether you’d absolutely take the job to keep talking. I think you’re approaching this logically to avoid being blinded by the “they asked me!” shiny. It seems like you’re not long for this current job, and I don’t know what the odds would be of you finding something else with a 15-minute commute; $13k might compensate nicely for some reading time on BART–or you might feel that it doesn’t. You might also find that moving to the city would eat up the difference. So you need to think about those things, but also know more about the job to know if it’s one that would make a 45-minute commute a dreaded approach or a pleasant anticipation.
Sarah Nicole* February 20, 2015 at 3:16 pm I think it’s always good to explore the options you have, even if you don’t plan on accepting the job for sure. You may interview and something about it is so incredibly awesome that you can’t pass it up. Although I wouldn’t want a 45 minute commute in the Bay area – I hate driving up there just to visit, lol (I live in SoCal). But if it’s a pay jump and you would enjoy the work and don’t mind the extra bit of drive, at least interview!
SanguineAspect* February 20, 2015 at 3:18 pm Do it! There’s no harm in talking to them, and there’s the possibility you’d really love it.
araminty* February 20, 2015 at 3:55 pm Thanks everyone. Of course there’s the usual interpersonal reasons for NOT leaving a job after 6 months, including my boss being on sabbatical until June. Plus, my last few jobs have been relatively short stays (3 years, 1 year, 3 years) and I took a year off between old job and current job to write a novel. (Or attempt to, anyway…) So not sure how my job history would bear up to having another short stay listed. Hence my “at least a year” plan… Also, honestly, although it seems a lot on paper, the $13K increase isn’t a big draw for me. If it was a LOT more, like a salary of $75K, my reservations would certainly be less. Is that weird?
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 4:06 pm Is the job offered something in which you’d possibly enjoy? Do you think you’d thrive in it? If you don’t think you’d do well or enjoy it, pass it by. Weigh the factors that matter most to you – commute appears to be one – against each other job for job. Perhaps a 45 min commute would be less painful with a flexible schedule, where you don’t have to watch the clock and worry about arriving at a certain time. Try not to include your current job peeves as motivations for taking the new job. You may find yourself jumping out of the pot and into the fire (as I have done, taking the first job offered because I was so miserable in a previous one). Good luck.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 5:27 pm DOH. Took so long to type my reply, I missed the whole show.
ella* February 20, 2015 at 2:49 pm I feel like I should’ve asked this over a year ago, or figured it out by now. but… I’ve been applying for jobs for awhile, mostly in city agencies and at higher ed institutions. A lot of these institutions use the same online software to manage their applications and will hold on to my previous applications, which is often an awesome time saver in terms of not having to type in my work history over and over and over. And I always double check and make sure that the resume it has is the right one. But in terms of cover letters, how do I manage those, particularly if I’m applying to one job before I’m certain that another one in my history has run its course? Should I upload multiple cover letters, and make it clear by the document name which cover letter is for which position? Should I be making different “profiles” for every single applcation (when I can, not all software allows for this) so that there’s no question of overlap? And yes, I’m being careful to try and make sure I’m not just throwing resume spaghetti at the proverbial employer wall to see what’ll stick, but occasionally I find that Institution A and Institution B use the same hiring software, and I’m not sure if Institution A is done with my application so I don’t want to delete it, but I also don’t want Institution B reading my cover letter for Institution A. If that makes sense.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 3:06 pm I don’t know the answer, but I’d love to understand more about how that software works. I assume that when you apply for a job, it records a copy of your documents at the time that you applied and that is what gets submitted, but I don’t actually know.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 2:59 pm One of the unseen advantages of my new job (as in I didn’t know it would be part of the job) is dealing with some of the admin around the hiring we do, it’s really interesting to see recruitment from the other side and see why sometimes things take time even if someone wants to put an offer out. Example being, one of my jobs is to approve listings but I was out sick on Monday so they didn’t get approved until I was back in the office.
Elkay* February 20, 2015 at 4:15 pm I think it’s one of the many annoyances of online/HR systems, they get programmed to go through certain steps and the process can stall quite easily.
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 1:31 am Yes, all the stuff candidates complain about you then see in a totally different light once you’re the one doing or managing the hiring process!
Revanche* February 21, 2015 at 2:21 am Yes, it’s amazing how many pieces have to come together for an offer to even be made. In one job, I had to clear a new hire through three different departments – their processes were awful! But of course you can’t badmouth colleagues for unnecessarily complicating your hiring process.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm Today is really confirming my decision to leave and luckily I had an enjoyable interview this morning elsewhere :) The good news is that my plan to find a new job is progressing well. My goal was to have an offer in hand by the end of April. based on the market for the roles I am looking for and the results I am getting so far, I am pretty sure I can hit that target. Knowing that I will be leaving soon makes the ridiculousness here all the more intolerable. So my question this week is: How do you stick it out and still care about your reputation and job performance when you are mentally checked out and leaving? I really truly do not care about this place. The reference is not an issue because they do not/cannot respond to reference requests here. My sole dept co-worker is also making moves to leave so its not like I would leave him in a tight spot…see I keep convincing myself that its OK to not care. So is it?
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 3:37 pm It’s okay not to care, but I don’t think it’s okay to let your apathy/indifference affect your job performance until you leave. It doesn’t seem like there are many practical reasons for you to worry about your performance too much and it’s hard to do something 40ish hours per week on principle alone. Can you map out what needs done before you leave and just stick to the list? I know it seems weird to suggest that a list could hold you accountable where other things have failed, but having something concrete and right in front of you that’s separated from coworkers and policies and whatnot might do the trick.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 5:22 pm Thank you, this is where I was headed; its good to hear it confirmed. I know there are a few things I can do to leave my house in order so to speak and those are what I will focus on. It is actually kind of exciting to think about doing that – it starts the closure process. And you are spot on about involving myself in something separate from coworkers and policies – that is really needed at the moment.
GOG11* February 22, 2015 at 11:01 am I hadn’t even thought about the closure aspect, but that’s so true. I hope you keep us updated on your progress – hopefully you’ll have some great news for us come April :)
A. D. Kay* February 20, 2015 at 3:04 pm In early January, I posted about the best timing to let a prospective workplace know that you will need to schedule arthroscopic surgery in the near future. Great news! They made me a great offer and I have been there for about seven weeks–and they urged me to go ahead and schedule the surgery to get it out of the way. I’m having it done next Tuesday and I am SO glad it’s going to finally get fixed.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:10 pm Yay! I’m so glad that they were open to that–it’s amazing how much that does for new employee morale. And good luck on the surgery.
A. D. Kay* February 20, 2015 at 4:39 pm Thanks! Oddly enough, the first week I was there, another employee just came back into the office after having it done. I was all o_O once I saw the immobilizing harness. Going to be an interesting six weeks! Also, I found out that the surgery will involve a “Mumford procedure.” I keep picturing my surgeon playing a banjo and singing tight vocal harmonies with his surgical staff while I’m laying there unconscious.
Lipton Tea For Me* February 20, 2015 at 3:09 pm I suspect I am burned out, but in a different way than most folks are familiar with. I am an Internal Revenue Service employee working in a call center environment, so low man on the totem pole. I really like the job as it allows me to help others and to teach people how to resolve their tax issues in an efficient way. It is a one stop shop as I never talk to the same person twice and each call is a different set of circumstances that need to be addressed and fixed. The burn out is coming from the constant verbal abuse from Congress, as they set the stage for everyone else to become judge and jury on every action taken while at work. It is like the politicians during the Vietnam War having no clue what the troops dealt with and yet, still making policy and laws regarding the same. Then of course, the general public jumps on the bandwagon as well to voice their dissatisfaction and the news channels speculate on things that have no basis in the story and suddenly when you wake up the next morning, those very same things are now the truth and you are covering it up. I am associated with Lois Lerner only in that we work for the same entity. How would you feel if your income, benefits, hours, etc., were affected by the payroll department’s policies and implementation? What if you came into work tomorrow and your manager said, all your past emails need to be sent to whatever policing unit the company has. I expect you’d feel like you were in the crosshairs without knowing exactly what management was looking for. Then you’d start feeling guilty for some imagined wrong doing and until the powers that be announced the result of the email search, you’d live on pins and needles wondering when the other shoe will drop. What if the payroll clerk was caught embezzling money and made it look like you were the one taking the checks to the bank. The constant hassle would be like having your identity stolen as no one would believe you and yet, the onus would be on you to prove otherwise. What if the parking lot attendant broke into every car on the lot except yours and took various personal items from each and placed them in the cubicle next to yours. How do you ever extricate yourself from something that you have no personal knowledge of? Where do you even begin? The thing is that all of these things happened to someone in your office and the only connection you have to them is that they are in your office, yet you are shellacked with the same brush without having any input. This has happened to all of the federal employees who work for the IRS, but for the actions of those many pay grades above our own, we suffer the consequences. Those individuals many pay grades above are not saddled with deciding whether they are buying groceries or paying the mortgage, they do not have to worry about having enough gas to get to work. And yet most of the general public seems to believe that we are overpaid and make $100k a year with fantastic benefits. It used to be a job that validated my contribution, but now, I am vilified with verbal abuse by the newspapers, the people I try to help, management, the liberals, the tea party, the conservatives, religious figures, and on and on. I just don’t really seem to care anymore and that is sad as the people that need the help the most are the very ones hurt by the actions of so many others.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 3:13 pm I’m sorry. I do have some experience with this, as I’m a state employee in an embattled state, and I know other feds here who’ve talked about this. But can you turn off some of this noise? Unless congresscritters are calling you personally, you’re hearing about this when you read or listen to the news (or to colleagues), and that’s something you can shut down. I know it can feel like you might miss something important, but trust me, if the government all goes on a trip to Mars together, someone will alert you :-). Noise-listening is a hard habit to break, but I think you’ll find it really valuable during a tough time.
Katie the Fed* February 20, 2015 at 3:23 pm Yeah, honestly, being a political punching bag is the worst part of this job. The sequester and shutdown and hiring freezes have all been awful, and then we get to read about congress wanting to cut our pay raises, or people talking about the overpaid and lazy federal employees. The people I work with are wonderful, dedicated professionals, and deserve a lot better than being the punchline of politicians’ barbs. So please know that you’re not alone, but also that many people are grateful you’re there. As far as the emails go – don’t stress about it. They’re not doing a massive search to find every evidence of wrongdoing – they’re looking for very specific things. If it comes out you did do something wrong inadvertently, as the low man on the totem pole chances are you make a mistake because that’s what you were taught, so it’s not on you. If that happens, you fight it, but cross that bridge when you come to it. I doubt you’ve done anything wrong so please don’t lose sleep over it!
cuppa* February 20, 2015 at 3:46 pm As someone who’s life has also been made extremely harder by Congress’s budget cuts to the IRS, please let me tell you that I feel deeply for you and your co-workers. I don’t have much advice for you, just all the support in the world. Also, contact your Congressperson and express your dissatisfaction with their funding cuts. On the day to day, keep your nose clean, cya when necessary, and try to just focus on the person calling you at that very moment. Sometimes you just have to get through the day. Best of luck to you, and thanks for your service.
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 5:57 pm I’m so sorry you have to deal with this! For what it’s worth, the “IRS targeting conservative groups” scandal pissed me off so so so much. People don’t understand the legalities or issues involved in the non-profit sector, but that doesn’t stop them from commenting like they do! None of those groups were denied tax-exempt status, and all they had to do was provide a bit of additional information to prove that they weren’t going to engage in electioneering or make political expenditures (which has a very specific definition in IRS code, as I’m sure you know). All those groups, liberal and conservative, ARE using tax-exempt status to advance political agendas, but they’re generally doing so in a way that is totally legal per our weird laws. That’s what the IRS found in each of those cases. I don’t think you can call it targeted harassment when you send a letter saying “Please provide this bit of info,” and then they provide it, and then you give them what they want. And this was what, like 26 orgs, out of the thousands that applied for tax exempt status that year? So yeah, I can understand how you’d be worn down from being the target of inquiry not only for stuff you never had anything to do with, but was also mostly trumped-up crap in the first place (because, as Katie the Fed notes, you apparently sign up to be a public punching bag when you take any government job at any level). /rant
private citizen* February 20, 2015 at 7:00 pm First off there are still groups waiting for approval years later. Second like any company who does things that are improper, the government will be all over their but. Usually it’s the IRS making people’s life miserable, not congress. I just got done with 4 months of an IRS audits. I had to spend 3 months proving my innocents,becuase with the IRS, you are guilty until proven innocent.
private citizen* February 20, 2015 at 7:03 pm And the last month trying to get the IRS to pay for my attorney’s fees
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 3:28 pm I see this stuff around me, too. My friend got written up in the newspaper. I read the article. The reporter had absolutely NO idea what he was talking about. He did not have a grasp of even the most basic parts of the situation. (Picture someone whose background is gardening and they start writing a sports column on national games. How accurate is this person able to be?) The public took it as gospel what the reporter said. This is our country. These are our systems. sigh.
Hermoine Granger* February 20, 2015 at 3:11 pm I’m job searching for a regular full-time marketing position and am currently in consideration for a few temp / temp-to-perm assignments in the interim. These assignments are expected to last from a few weeks to about three months. I’m not interested in these specific positions on a permanent basis as they’d be a step back for me experience and salary wise (the salary would only work short-term as a way of stretching my savings). However, they do present an opportunity to gain experience in new industries while continuing to job search. I was in a similar position after graduating from college and could simply take a few hours off unpaid for interviews but that was a definite temporary position. However, I’ve gotten the feeling from a few interviewers that they’d be put off by the possibility that temp-to-perms would continue job searching. If you’ve been in a similar position, how did you handle interviewing for other positions without PTO or a flexible schedule? Do temp-to-perms typically hide that they’re still job searching? Would it be unwise to ask to come in a bit late / leave a bit early for an interview? Would bridges be burnt if I’m offered a permanent position and have to give notice before the end of an assignment?
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 4:18 pm Ugh. It’s never easy to do interviews when you don’t have flexibility. The company might not see if this way, but I think it’s totally reasonable to keep interviewing when the “to perm” part isn’t for sure. You might be stuck with trying to schedule at lunch, or asking for the time off for no particular reason. I don’t think I’d tell them, unless you feel sure they will be okay with the fact that you’re not really planning to stay.
Hermoine Granger* February 20, 2015 at 11:26 pm Thanks for responding. I agree with your advice that it’s probably best to keep that I’m looking to myself with temp-to-perm positions. In those situations I’ll just have to find creative ways to schedule interviews.
Ann Furthermore* February 20, 2015 at 3:12 pm My husband runs a very small business, and the work lately has really dried up. It’s been very slow for quite awhile, and he’s going to have to lay some people off next week. :( I just feel terrible for him.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 3:37 pm Oh man, that is hard. I am so sorry. When Old Company went through layoffs, the managers were just crushed that they had to give this bad news to people who deserved to keep their jobs but just couldn’t because of the recession. I hope things pick up again, the business thrives, and he can re-hire soon. :/
Revanche* February 21, 2015 at 2:10 am Much sympathy to him and the staff. :( Really hope business picks up again soon for him.
Long Weird Title? Or a Vague Title?* February 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm I’ve just been assigned management of an additional area! With a promotion! And a raise! Yay! And then my boss asked me to suggest a new title for myself. Um…. Suddenly I realize that my two areas are super unrelated and I have no idea what title to use. I’ve been google searching, brainstorming, and even trying out Brangelina-esque conflations. Nothing sounds good. My options seems to be using a really vague title or a long weird title that includes two totally separate areas. So I leave it up to y’all. Vote now: Long Weird Title vs. Vague Title
Karowen* February 20, 2015 at 3:26 pm We have a lot of long weird titles at my company – While it’s annoying in signature lines and on business cards, I prefer it to vague titles where I have no clue if I’m speaking to the right person.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 3:39 pm Ditto…My manager went with the vague one and it causes confusion internally and externally.
Barefoot Librarian* February 20, 2015 at 3:42 pm I agree with this. I’m in academia, long titles are par for the course. ;)
Joey* February 20, 2015 at 3:35 pm Id pick a title that is marketable if you ever decide to leave. That means no weird stuff. Find the closest title that the rest of the world uses. Maybe it’s an all encompassing title like Sr. Manager.
ZSD* February 20, 2015 at 5:34 pm What if your official title is two-part (long and weird), but you only use the appropriate part of the title with external communications regarding the two different parts of your role? For example, your official company title could be, “Beekeeping project manager and assistant director of wardrobe design,” but you’d set up two different email signatures, one of which says just, “Beekeeping project manager,” and the other of which says, “Assistant director of wardrobe design,” and you use whichever signature is relevant to the email you’re sending? (And if necessary, two sets of business cards, etc.)
super anon* February 20, 2015 at 3:21 pm i’m late to the open thread (living on the west coast does that to you~), but i have a question to throw out. i finished school in december but since then i’ve been drifting and not really sure of what to do. i’ve applied to some jobs and gone on some interviews but haven’t gotten anything yet. for the past few weeks i haven’t really been able to bring myself to do anything other than go to the gym and clean up around my house, and do general errands. I don’t really go outside my home because I don’t really have anything I need to be doing or spending money on. i’ve found that applying for jobs has become really overwhelming to me – i think in part because i can’t decide what i want to jobs i want/can do, what area to focus in, and because i’m in a major city there’s hundreds of new job postings each day to sort through. i’ve tried to focus on one thing in regards to the job search each day – but i find even that to be too much. i’ve spent the last 3 days completely overhauling and redoing my resume to bring it’s look and feel into 2015, but i don’t feel that great about it. i have anxiety, and i find the longer i’m unemployed the more anxious i get that i’ll never be hireable by anyone (i have one of those degrees that everyone hears and says “oh yeah you’ll never get a job!!” so that really doesn’t help me at all), and the more lectures i get from the people around me trying to be helpful that really aren’t. i just feel stuck, and not in a good way. how do i get out of this rut? is this a normal thing for recent grads to feel? i feel like I’m drifting aimlessly and i have no real purpose or direction, and i can’t think of how to figure out what to do. my last job was really toxic and left me feeling like i wasn’t capable of doing anything thanks to a crazy micromanager boss and lead to me becoming incredibly burned out, and finishing my last term at university (during which i had created and taught a class while also finishing up my last semester) really sucked the energy out of me. all i know is that i need to figure something out fast, because i can’t burn through my savings account forever.
HR Manager* February 20, 2015 at 3:48 pm I don’t think it’s that unusual. I know many fresh grads who were lost when they left school, and I think that has only increased in recent years when the economy was under water. Do you have any experience to draw on? Internships? Summer jobs? I’d use your experience from those to draw some insights into what you enjoyed, and what you didn’t. What did you study at school? Are there any natural paths from your field of study? Do you still have access to their career services office for some career counseling? If that doesn’t work, I think the key is going out there and doing something — go volunteer! It’s not only an opportunity to contribute, but will give you a practical experience in living in a schedule, with responsibilities and assigned tasks, and working with different people. If you need money, sign up with a temp agency and take on some assignments. I think getting some additional real world experience is the most helpful solution to “what now?”
super anon* February 20, 2015 at 4:06 pm i have a decent amount of work experience in retail and sales, but for the last 4 years i’ve worked as a researcher with universities and at the government, and my last position was working with a small team to help find ways for students who are part of an at-risk portfolio succeed. my resume has lots of really great experience that i can pull from to apply to a wide variety of jobs, thank god. also i’m older than your standard new graduate because i went to university about 4 years after all of my friends did. my problem is i just can’t really motivate myself i guess? i feel stuck and overwhelmed by the sheer amount of choice and freedom and lost and really kind of meh. for years i’ve pushed myself working two jobs, or working full time and going to school simultaneously, that i’ve never actually done nothing or had nothing to look forward to. i have no plan and no real way forward and i just… don’t know what to do about it to push myself out. if someone asked me the “where do you see yourself in 5 years” question i really can’t answer it, because i can’t even see myself in a week.
super anon* February 20, 2015 at 5:08 pm edit: i realized that last line sounds way more dramatic than i meant it to so i felt i should clarify it. i meant that i’m finding it difficult to imagine myself in 5 years or even next week because i don’t have a plan. the future is kind of this grey abyss of unknowns. i feel a bit like i’m piloting a boat through insane fog without a fog horn to guide me.
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 5:44 pm Eh, I don’t think you need a five year plan at this point (that’s hard for me to say, as someone who has always had a Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, and usually a Plan D). If you do get that question, say that you haven’t figured out your true calling yet, but you’re excited to learn and grow, and then talk about specific things in the role you’re applying to that you’re interested in “I’ve never done X before, but given my research skillset from college, I think I could be good at it, and I’d love to learn about how X impact Z…” Even if you’re a slightly older new grad, I don’t think you’ll be penalized too much for not having it all figured out!
Olive Hornby* February 20, 2015 at 6:14 pm I definitely think this is a normal thing for recent grads to feel, especially recent grads in liberal arts degrees that don’t necessarily translate obviously to a particular career path. I would suggest, though, that not leaving your house might be part of your problem. If you’re spending most of your time at home, stewing in your own anxiety, it’s not surprising that you feel so out of sorts. Even if you can’t spend money to go to a coffeeshop, could you block out a period of time to go to a library and apply for jobs from there? Giving yourself structure (“I’m going to go to the library from 9 am to 1 pm every Monday through Friday to apply for jobs”) might help it feel less overwhelming, and it will certainly make your home more of a respite.
Susan* February 21, 2015 at 1:55 am I was going to suggest something similar to this. Basically when you’re home a lot (which I experience as a freelancer) sometimes you actually start to lose your mind. I try to go to a library. But practically speaking, while you’re in-between jobs, I feel like it’s nice to be doing something that’s stimulating and maybe even a resume builder, even if it doesn’t pay. I’m not sure if there’s somewhere you could volunteer. Or maybe you could start a blog to discuss issues in your field. I don’t know your situation enough to give concrete suggestions, but for me, it completely changed my perspective once I started doing something after a long unemployment.
afiendishthingy* February 21, 2015 at 3:20 am Agreed, super normal for new grads, especially liberal arts grads, and yes you are making yourself crazy not leaving your house. I have been there– actually just remembered a conversation about a year after I graduated in which I cried about how overwhelmed and scared I was about not knowing which path to choose. Applying for one particular job – or even getting that job and accepting it – is not going to determine your entire future; you’re not signing a contract that you’ll stay in this job forever. Personally I think if past experiences haven’t made you swear off the entire industry, you should apply for some retail jobs. Nobody expects you to stay there forever, and you need some social interaction because your brain isn’t good company right now. You’re going to be ok. Your next job probably won’t be the best one you ever have, but it’s going to teach you things, even if it’s just teaching what kind of work you want to avoid. I swear – it will be ok.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 3:41 pm It sounds to me like you are doing too much alone. Don’t let yourself fall into isolation. Make it a habit to connect with friends/neighbors/others on a more regular basis. I think you have been commenting here for a little bit, so that is a good thing. Keep reading here, we will not bring back a good mindset if we do not put good thoughts into our thinking. You are probably job hunting too much. Take a walk. Go to the library and wander aimlessly through the racks. If you cannot decide on your focus, that is okay, don’t worry about that. Figure out where your natural abilities are. Apply for jobs that fit your natural abilities. Put yourself where you will probably succeed, in other words. Read up on toxic bosses and toxic work places. Teach yourself about them. Know when you should cope and know when you should RUN. Learn about red flags on interviews, so that you can feel a little more confident about choosing an employer. If all this sounds daunting pretend your bestest friend in life is having difficulties remarkably similar to what you say here. Pretend you have to read up and learn so you can help your dear, dear friend.
Audiophile* February 20, 2015 at 3:26 pm How long do you go back and forth trying to schedule a phone interview? I applied for a job in the fall and communicated via email with a recruiter for the company. We couldn’t nail down a time to talk and she disappeared. She reappeared last month with, seemingly, no recollection of our previous emails. And again we’re having the same issues. We can’t get connected, we were scheduled to speak, I got a call more than an hour later that she was running late and she instead wanted to reschedule. I’d be willing to let it go but it’s been months now.
GOG11* February 20, 2015 at 3:31 pm Ugh. Unless you’re over the moon and halfway to Mars about this position and know that the rest of the company doesn’t operate similarly, I wouldn’t try to reconnect. Maybe there is a way around this interviewer, but if there is I don’t know how to go about that.
puddin* February 20, 2015 at 3:44 pm Yah, this is a lost cause unless it the rainbow unicorn of jobs. I have to believe that a company that tolerates this will continue to be disrespectful of your time (and who knows what else) if you do end up working there.
Audiophile* February 21, 2015 at 1:42 pm I’m inclined to agree that it’s a lost cause at this point. I’m not over the moon about the job but I also haven’t had any real interviews since Thanksgiving. I’ve had a few phone interviews, but nothing panned out. She disappeared in early November with just a simple, ‘I’ll get back to you.’ and when I didn’t hear from her, I took it to mean the position had been filled. So imagine my surprise when she popped up again in January. She seems to miss a lot of my emails to her, because I won’t hear back and then I’ll email again and she’ll say, she didn’t receive my previous email.
Susan* February 20, 2015 at 3:30 pm Gah. I was just applying for a job through a form, and the final submit button wouldn’t work. I kept hitting back, and trying to see if the page wasn’t loading properly. I eventually went into another browser and tried that. Then I opened my email and saw it submitted six times — I just never got a confirmation screen. I probably look obnoxious now!
Barefoot Librarian* February 20, 2015 at 3:40 pm Technology can be weird sometimes. Chances are they’ll realize what happened when they see six identical submissions back to back. I wouldn’t stress too much over it.
HR Manager* February 20, 2015 at 3:42 pm Don’t worry about it. Especially if the times are close together, you can probably tell it was some technology blip. This would happen to me every once in a while as a recruiter – I’d go in and see the same application multiple times.
Susan* February 21, 2015 at 1:37 am Thanks! I’m glad this isn’t some sort of signifier for “impatient person.”
Barefoot Librarian* February 20, 2015 at 3:38 pm I have to share my good news! I got a verbal offer and am in negotiations for the job I applied for back in November. It was a long process and there were times that I stressed unnecessarily over the lack of feedback and long gaps in communication, but it paid off. So stay positive job hunters! Just sell your skills and share your lovely personalities the best you can and something will come along. :)
Susan* February 21, 2015 at 1:38 am Congrats! I think people should share good news more; it’s encouraging!
A.K.* February 20, 2015 at 3:53 pm I’m in the midst of hiring for the first role that I’ve ever been responsible for hiring on. It’s a really exciting position and we’ve gotten a ton of applications for it, including over a dozen from people who I know personally or for whom I’ve gotten a recommendation from a close friend. I originally felt that I would do at least a phone screen with anyone in those categories, but at this point, that number is getting high enough that it’s more people than I have time to talk to, even without counting all of the unconnected applications I’ve gotten that are great. How much obligation do you have to interview someone you know personally? Also, when I end up having to send rejections, how do you personalize a rejection to someone you know well, without making it something they take personally?
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 4:03 pm I don’t think you have an obligation to interview them, but I do think you have an obligation to respond to them, even if it’s with a rejection.
A.K.* February 20, 2015 at 4:17 pm Oh, I’m definitely planning to respond to everyone who applied, even if it’s with a form letter rejection. I just feel like it’s weird sending a form letter rejection to someone who I see regularly, especially if I haven’t interviewed them.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 4:24 pm I’d send a personal rejection – i.e. “Hi friend, I saw that you applied to the Teapot Designer position. While I’d love to work with you in the future, we’ve decided to go with other candidates this time. Best wishes on your job hunt!”
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 4:14 pm As a rule, I don’t do “courtesy” (read: sham) interviews. If I had a lot of time on my hands, I might do it in the hopes that I’d be pleasantly surprised, but I just can’t fit this in. Candidates are often taking time off work for interviews, too – so if I truly have no intention of hiring them, I don’t do an interview. I know that some people will be left thinking, “but I didn’t even get an interview!”, but I’m not sure if it’s really better for them to have a fake interview.
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 5:38 pm In the hiring I’ve done recently, we had a short written exercise as the second step, instead of jumping to the phone interview. I generally have the same policy you do; if someone was a referral or someone I personally know, they get a “free” pass to the exercise (unless they’re just OBVIOUSLY unqualified. I won’t string along someone with zero chance, but I will advance someone with, say, a 10% chance). This isn’t to make them feel better or anything; rather, I think it makes sense. “You’re someone that I probably would have passed on just based on your materials, but because I have just a tiny bit of positive information on you, I’ll give you a chance to wow me with your exercise.” Typically, they don’t “wow” me, but it also takes much less time to evaluate a crappy exercise than it does to conduct a phone interview, and I can whenever I have a couple spare minutes. And a few times, it’s really been beneficial. I like to think of this as one way to combat the “I can’t put together a resume to save my life, and I can’t write for a hill of beans, but I can actually do really well at the job I’m applying for” bias.
ck* February 20, 2015 at 3:59 pm I was unexpectedly laid off in October 2012 when my boss decided to close the business. I haven’t had a job since because my anxiety and depression got really bad and it really got in the way of job searching. I’m feeling better and ready to get back to work, but how do I explain this employment gap without delving into personal details? Do I explain it in my cover letter or do I just wait until it comes up in an interview?
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 4:02 pm “medical issue that is now under control” (or something like that).
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:40 pm I agree with Collette. If you give any explanation, frame is as being sick. You were sick, and there’s no need to clarify mental vs. physical health. If people ask for details, you can repeat, “I was dealing with some health problems that are now resolved”. If they press further, “thanks for your concern. I’m doing fine” – even if that’s a bit of a non-sequester. People will either understand that you don’t want to talk about it, or they will assume it’s a an obgyn-type issue, and they probably won’t want to know more.
Colette* February 20, 2015 at 4:01 pm So I’m reading a lot of job descriptions, and I’m finding the typos very amusing. “Bookeeper” seems to be a common one – I assume it’s a position looking after ghosts.
Anonsie* February 20, 2015 at 4:12 pm Ah yes, my great grandfather was the bookeeper on the poltergeist ranch of a wealthy landowner in Kentucky.
Beancounter in Texas* February 20, 2015 at 4:13 pm LOL I’ll keep that in mind, as perhaps I’m missing some job openings simply based on the misspelling.
TheExchequer* February 20, 2015 at 4:55 pm So if you pass all your classes, you get alumni membership in ghostbusters? Sign me up!
AnotherAlison* February 20, 2015 at 5:43 pm Nothing as funny as “bookeeper” but I’m amazed by the typos I see in the RFP I’m responding to this week. Mostly, it is hard to read due to the poorly constructed sentences, but there is a “siesmic” zone mentioned and few other things like that. Your/you’re errors might slip through the cracks, but you should at least fix the ones that Word spell check catches.
Jcsgo* February 20, 2015 at 5:46 pm Haha, that speaks to me right now! I posted below about interviewing for a bookkeeping position tomorrow. Writing the cover letter was a lesson in that (two Os, two Ks, two Es!) Reminds me of the current ‘test’ I face in my job to not misspell the word pantry as panty. (That is on my mental list of TRIPLE CHECK OR ELSE.)
Arjay* February 20, 2015 at 6:10 pm Flag “panty” as a misspelled word in your custom dictionary for the word processing software you use. Unless you commonly have to write about both pantries and panties. :)
hermit crab* February 21, 2015 at 1:14 pm We use the word “public” a lot and everyone does a find-replace for “pubic” before submitting documents!
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 3:47 pm “Bookkeeper” is the only word in the English language with three sets of double letters in a row. I missed that trivia question once. So thought I would mention it here as a public service thing. No one should suffer this like I did.
TheExchequer* February 20, 2015 at 4:09 pm So I’m updating my resume even though I’ve only been at my job 7 months. Which is not ideal, but it is what happens when your bosses decide being too busy is an adequate reason for being late with payment of the paycheck. (And yes, I have this in writing! Oh, the miles my jaw dropped when I saw that). I’d like to vent in frustration and ask if there’s anything appropriate to say when asked why I’m looking for a job. Does “because they didn’t pay me on time” with a straight face and zero emotion sound right?
ZSD* February 20, 2015 at 5:28 pm I think you can give that reason, but I’d phrase it a bit differently. How about, “My current company does not reliably deposit paychecks on time”? Or, “My current employer has failed to pay us on time a few times now”? I think these options sound a little less hostile than the phrasing you suggested, but they’re similar to yours in that they don’t go into more detail than necessary.
Spiky Plant* February 20, 2015 at 5:31 pm I think that that can totally be appropriate. I might frame it as “I take my commitments very seriously and follow through with what I promise to deliver to my company. I think payroll is a pretty fundamental commitment my employer should make to me in return, and my current organization doesn’t appear to take that commitment as seriously as I’d like. I want to work somewhere that lives up to its commitments to me, so I can focus on delivering results.”
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:36 pm I don’t know, I think i’d keep it brief, and without judgement of the past employer’s values or fundamental beliefs. Just be matter-of-fact: most employers will understand that not getting paid on time is something that would upset people.
Susan* February 21, 2015 at 2:02 am Oh, I’ve had the same question. I just let a freelance client go and so relations are tense through no fault of my own (I never got nasty, I just kept asking for payment). I’m relatively new to freelancing and so losing a reference kind of sucks, and I have some anxiety about it coming up. But you guys are right. I can probably get out of that with a quick “wasn’t reliably getting paid.” I’m sure other references are great, though. I try to do things early and well. I just had to move on for my sanity.
Corporate Newbie* February 20, 2015 at 4:09 pm Should I mention my intention to pursue further education (part-time) during interview? I am heading to an interview next week for a strategy job at a large pharma. I know that this is a job that that will have more room for advancement, if I had pursued an MBA or MPH degree some time down the road. In fact the company is known to give tuition reimbursement to employees who seek further education in a related field. My question to you is this: if I were asked questions about my plans in the next 5/10 years, do you think it is wise to mention my intention to pursue a masters degree? I can see it go both ways – on one hand, it could be interpreted as my desire to grow; on the other, it could be interpreted as a potential disruptor to me doing my real job.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 5:19 pm It depends on whether you’d quit your job to do this, or if you would go to school part-time and keep your job. If you’d keep the job, I would absolutely mention it.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 5:26 pm I would also take into consideration whether or not the degree will lead to you searching for a new job. If you can work it into your narrative that the degree will hopefully help you move up in the company within the next 3-5 years, that’s good.
ACA* February 20, 2015 at 6:19 pm I just did this in an interview today – in an “I’m so committed to higher education that I’m planning to apply to a MSEd program in the fall” kind of way – so I say go for it. Although now I’m worrying that I didn’t make it clear to my interviewer that I meant a part-time program. Oops.
MB* February 20, 2015 at 4:22 pm I’m looking for some advice how to take advantage of my alumni network and if that’s even appropriate in this situation. There is a job I am very interested in and very qualified for. Somebody from my university who I have never met (we weren’t there at the same time and have different majors) works at this employer (100-200 employees) but in a different department. She is also head of the alumni association in my area. Also my husband used to work with her at her previous job but they had little interaction. Enough to know who he is but not enough for him to comfortably introduce us. I was never active in the alumni association. To even sign up for my universities alumni associate I have to pay $25, so perhaps I can connect with her there but I hate the concept of giving my university money (I don’t like them) especially if I can’t connect? How can I utilize this connection? Should I connect on LinkedIn? My goal would be for her to forward my materials to the hiring manager or at least help my candidacy. I feel like this is what alumni associations are for and she clearly cares about it.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:42 pm I agree that such a connection can be helpful, though I’d keep my expectations modest. I’d suck it up and join the alumni association (it’s not really going to impress the head of the local alumni association that you hate the school) and then drop her an email saying that you’re a fellow alum, you’re looking at an opening at her company, and does she have any insight into the position or the organization that she’d be willing to share?
MB* February 20, 2015 at 4:52 pm Thank you for your response and advice. If it makes any difference it’s a teaching position at a private school and she’s in the development department and has only been there a couple months but her position is high up. Would this influence your advice at all?
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 5:23 pm I totally agree with fposte. I’d go a step further and say that it seems a tad unfair to attempt to avail yourself of a primary benefit of your alumni association without paying the membership fee. It’s possible that even if you didn’t join, if you connected with the alum on LinkedIn, she’d pitch you on membership and then you’d be in the position of either paying anyway or possibly awkwardly declining. If it were a TON of money, I’d say it wouldn’t matter, but that doesn’t seem like a horrible amount to pay for a solid lead. But yes, don’t feel at all awkward about just writing her. That’s what she’s there for. That’s what alumni associations are all about. Even if she can’t put in a good word for you or anything, she can possibly give you insider tips for your application, a good idea of the culture of the school, etc. She’ll probably be pumped to help (I reach out to my school all the time, practically waving my arms yelling “I HIRE FOR POSITIONS IN DC AND HAVE LOTS OF CONNECTIONS, I CAN TOTALLY GET GRADUATES COOL JOBS” and I’ve not gotten a single bite).
katamia* February 20, 2015 at 5:57 pm LOL. You sound like me–I hate my alma mater, too. In addition to the alumni association (which my father signed me up for without my knowledge just after I graduated even though I was very clear that I never, ever wanted to give them another cent), though, my school also has local alumni email mailing lists and meetups (which I don’t go to, but I know they’re there). It’s probably too late for this situation, but if you think this is a situation that might come up again, you could check to see if your school has something similar and try to go to some events to build some relationships that way.
IT Kat* February 20, 2015 at 4:24 pm Thanks to all the advice from Alison and commenters on this blog, I’ve decided to start looking around at what else may be out there – and thanks to the wonderful resume and cover letter advice contained in this blog, I’ve gotten three recruiter calls in the last two weeks, one of which resulted in a phone interview today and another phone interview for an Very Large, Well Known, Difficult-to-Get-Into IT company. Obviously, neither is guaranteed, but I just wanted to say thank you for all the assistance that’s gotten me this far!
A volunteer mediator* February 20, 2015 at 4:32 pm On last weekend’s open thread, I mentioned that I mediate for a local organization where I live. Not So NewReader asked wanted me to talk more about that topic on today’s work-related thread and asked: “Cool, among my dozens of questions, where do you get funding from so that you can offer free services? I can see where there is a huge need out there, so there must be criteria for applicants.” I used to be more involved with the financial aspects of the organization (I used to work for it, now I just volunteer) and, at that time, we were a program of a parent organization and we were partially funded by grants. Our hope is to offer certain services on a sliding fee scale, though others will always be offered at no-cost. The mediators are volunteers so that helps cut down on costs.
fposte* February 20, 2015 at 4:35 pm Wow, that’s amazing that you’re able to volunteer to provide such a great service. I’m sure it helps a lot of people.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 3:58 pm So how would one start this type of service in their community? Or how would one start to find out about it? What types of situations does your group mediate? What qualifications do volunteers have to have? Do you have some kind of metric for success? How do people find you? Do lawyers refer people to you? I hate to ask about your people that you serve. So I will ask about you. How did you get involved in this group? How do you know when NOT to take a given situation? It must be that you have an intake person? (It’s taken me almost two days to read down this far in the comments, I wish I had seen this sooner. I will check back for you.)
Hearts On Fire* February 20, 2015 at 4:48 pm Super late to the party, but I’ll post this anyway. :) I would like to transition out of marketing/communications to another field, but I’m just not sure what field that should be. I’m very interested in business in general, but unsure what path to take. Has anyone done this successfully? Any tips for transitioning that doesn’t involve going back to school?
AnotherAlison* February 20, 2015 at 5:13 pm Consider moving to the market analysis/data analysis side of your field. . .without school. If those roles and opportunities don’t exist at your current company, can you teach yourself some things and volunteer to implement some analysis there? And then search for a new role that is 75-100% that next time, once you have some experience? If those roles do exist, can you talk to your manager about shifting into that type of position? (Marketing is extremely broad, but we had marketing proposal people with communications and journalism degrees who worked on implementing a CRM system and developing the reporting, so that’s kind of what I’m thinking. Other industries may have different areas to focus on.)
StudentA* February 21, 2015 at 12:55 am It’s hard to say without knowing what your interests are. One thought I had is this: Since marketing is a function in many organizations, you can transition to other functions within your current industry. So for example, if you do marketing in a hospitality organization, you might be able to transition into doing something else within hospitality, such as operations or office administration. Marketers are often both great salespeople and good communicators. Perhaps try to harness the communications and writing strength into something else, such as editing. There’s also tourism, such as working as a docent/tour guide or a volunteer coordinator (paid job, requires a very diplomatic person). And there’s always teaching, either marketing or career switcher teaching programs. But for the latter, further education may be necessary (think Teach For America).
Nethwen* February 20, 2015 at 4:50 pm I’ve been searching for half an hour and can’t find the discussion on if people who are out on vacation when the office closes for weather should still have to use their vacation time for that day (because those working get a comp day). Was it maybe in an open thread? The subject has come up with us and I want to point to outside experiences. (Don’t spend half an hour looking, but if you know right off where to look and could point me, you have my gratitude.)
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:54 pm I don’t know where to look but I know the end result was some offices do it one way and some do it another. It’s nice if they don’t dock you vacation time but it’s within their right as PTO is a company perk, not a law. I will attach some links in the next comment.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 4:55 pm https://www.askamanager.org/2014/01/how-should-companies-handle-snow-days.html https://www.askamanager.org/2015/01/how-should-your-office-handle-snow-days.html
AndreaA* February 20, 2015 at 5:19 pm Is it weird or off-putting to have a line on my LinkedIn profile that I’m not looking for new opportunities? I’m very happy in a relatively new role. My LinkedIn was pretty bare bones but I’ve started filling out more info for networking and that kind of thing, and I’ve had a few contacts already from people looking for employees in my particular field. Also, I don’t want anyone I currently work with to have any ideas that I’m looking for new work–I turned off the updates to connections when I edit my profile, but even so, I just want to be sure.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:32 pm It’s one thing not to list that you want to be contacted about opportunities, it might be a little weird to say directly that you aren’t interested. You could just disregard unwanted message. It’s awesome that you’re happy, but there’s always that chance of being laid off, etc. and I’d be hesitant to close too many doors.
StudentA* February 21, 2015 at 12:48 am I totally agree with Ashley. Also, I’ve never come across something like this on a LinkedIn profile. I am not sure there’s a professional way to say so. Ignoring people seems to be totally accepted now as a form of rejection on LinkedIn!
SystemsLady* February 21, 2015 at 12:08 pm I tried this once. Not only did I realize it wasn’t the best idea, but it didn’t even work.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 5:23 pm Just a rant. Someone in a different department broke a $350 piece of equipment using it for non-work purposes (99% sure of this). She’s one of those weasely-types who waited to ask our brand-new intern where the supplies to use it were, knowing the intern wouldn’t know to say no. Then she came up to us and was like “Oh I want to help fix it, I don’t know what I could have done differently.” UM you could have read the directions and NOT BROKEN IT. ARGHH When I told my boss, she just laughed and said, “Oh I think we have some money in the budget for a new one.” UM what? I need to use it like yesterday for work!
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 6:25 pm Ugh, that’s a pain! But, since you can’t prove anything and your boss isn’t interested anyway, I think the best way to approach this, honestly, is to pretend that you’re certain the co-worker is telling the truth. Like, she just had a horrible day, and now people think that she broke this expensive thing because she’s dumb and trying to use it for non-work purposes… It’s surprisingly effective in ameliorating situations that you just can’t control or change. Well, at least relatively minor ones like this. :)
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 8:36 pm I agree there’s nothing I can do, but I don’t need to prove anything, she is telling the truth, I know that. She admits it all as if there’s nothing wrong with it. That’s what bugs me, the lack of shame. I’m not even going to pretend that I can be successful implementing your suggestion (although it’s a good one). I already have a particular taste for this woman that’s not going away anytime soon. (I was a guest speaker at one of her department meetings and passed her walking into the room, and she looked at me with such disgust and said, “What are YOU doing here??”) She probably was having a bad day, but she has too many for me to feel any sympathy.
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:30 pm Does your boss care if the equipment is used for non-work purposes? I have no problem with laptops, projectors, etc. being used for personal stuff as long as they are back at the office when they are needed. It sounds like your frustration is more than it’s not there when you need it than the rather than the fact that your co-worker broke it for a non-work purpose. It’s part of the cost of doing business to replace broken stuff – your boss is right to be prepared for that.
Treena Kravm* February 20, 2015 at 8:30 pm Well, it’s not just the wear and tear, it requires the use of supplies, even if she didn’t break it. I’m annoyed at the few week’s I’ll be without it, but way more pissed because that $350 is coming out of other supplies I need to do my job effectively. I’m at a non-profit, so the money just doesn’t appear, something else gets cut. What really pisses me off is that she thinks she has a right to use it in the first place. It exists solely for my department and what we do, and she has no business need to use it. Our departments in general do not get along, because people from her department keep applying for the openings in our department, because it’s more money, and they never get hired, and instead and outside person gets brought in. All that results in them resenting us a lot. Our department pays part of their department’s rent/utilities/and things like photocopies, so when they see us using their equipment, they don’t realize we pay for it and they probably think it’s a free-for-all.
Jcsgo* February 20, 2015 at 5:23 pm I’m interviewing for a nonprofit’s (let’s call it Mint Teapots Inc. – MTI) bookkeeper position tomorrow morning. I have zero direct work experience in bookkeeping, but I have work experience in the general “teapot” industry as well as personal volunteer experience within MTI. Though I have not been employed by this organization before, I have been very involved with it for 2+ years. MTI is a small organization with less than 10 employees. Seeing as I know little about bookkeeping, my research mentioned a need for good accountability procedures. **What is a good way to phrase the question “What procedures are in place to prevent fraud?” Or, really – what are better/more specific questions I should ask about accountability for finances? I want to communicate to the interviewers that I am aware of the concern, and I also want to learn what precautions are already in place (without presuming they’re clueless about this!) After all, who would want to take a position where they could easily be accused of major theft or other illegal behavior? (The same concern would apply for any job working with kids.) **Other good bookkeeping interview questions to pose to the interviewers are very welcome too! (And if it makes a difference, I do personally know 2 of the 4 interviewers–one of whom most recently held the position. The other interviewer I know is my potential boss.)
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 6:22 pm I think I’d go with something like “Can you tell me how much of this job will be following previously established accounting/bookkeeping procedures, versus how much I need to be on top of industry practices and implementing new systems?”
Ashley the Nonprofit Exec* February 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm I am currently hiring a nonprofit bookkeeper (It’s not you – I haven’t started interviewing :-)): The questions you are asking are framed as “internal controls” and “segregation of duties” (vs. fraud prevention, because it’s also error prevention, accusation prevention, and accountability). If you google those two phrases with “nonprofit” added, you will get examples of what I’m talking about. Questions, therefore, might be: Can you tell me about your internal control processes? Who else is involved in the finances for the purpose of segregating duties? It’s normal for the ED, the board treasurer, and maybe an admin to have some role in an agency that size. I’d be curious about whether this job is truly just data-entry bookkeeping, or if you’re also analyzing the finances, generating reports, graphs, etc. If so, has this been done before? If reports are involved, I’d ask about those – are they funder reports, or reports to the board? What information will you be sharing in order to keep internal and external stakeholders up to date? What elements of their bookkeeping would they like to enhance/improve upon over the next year or two? What bookkeeping software do they use? Are they happy with it? Does it do everything they need it to do?
voluptuousfire* February 20, 2015 at 9:37 pm It’s only a few weeks, but it’s something! My timing with jobs the past year have just been crap. It’s nice to know something worked out!
MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)* February 20, 2015 at 5:56 pm Well, we’re going through a restructure. And the structure has clearly been designed by someone who has no knowledge or understanding of our department, because it actually makes zero sense.
Come On Eileen* February 20, 2015 at 5:59 pm Any tips for how to make a smooth transition back to work after being out on medical leave for two months? I didn’t share any information about my diagnosis with co-workers, and am sure they are concerned for me. I’m doing really well and excited to get back to work, just not sure if there are any unwritten protocols for how to gracefully return, get caught up on projects, and make sure folks know I’m good without sharing private details about the health problems I’ve been experiencing.
StudentA* February 21, 2015 at 12:46 am Just emphasize how excited you are to return to work, that you really missed your job, and that you’re positive your health will begin improving now that you are back to an actual routine. If someone tries to get more personal info out of you, say something like “It’s been tough and a bit unnatural being away from the office. I am really glad things are back to normal now, both health-wise and work-wise.” Some people are plain nosy, while others want to prove their concern to you, so that’s often why folks ask questions. I wouldn’t put too much weight on this though. Just show a reasonable amount of appreciation for their concern, and move on. I think you should cut yourself some slack, and be kind to yourself, now that you’re soon back in the office. Be as organized as you can, so nothing falls through the cracks. But if it does, don’t beat yourself up.
Guppy* February 20, 2015 at 6:00 pm I made a mistake at work and I’m wondering how to handle it. I have a mostly rigid schedule, but I do have appointments on two days a week that I take at lunch time. I take shortened lunches on the other days to make everything even out to the appropriate number of hours. If my appointment ends early, I simply leave early enough on Friday so that I don’t go over on hours. My supervisor has approved this plan. I was out ill on one of my longer days and I came in early enough over the next two days to offset that time (like 15 minutes early) without supervisor’s approval. Now, I’m thinking that that was a big no-no. I’m worried that I overreached and I don’t know how to approach my boss.
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 6:14 pm On face, I don’t think you need to panic. Your boss does seem to be OK with flexible scheduling, so there’s precedent for you thinking it would be OK. I might approach her and say something like “Hey Gandalf! I wanted to talk to you about last week. I was ill on X day, so I came in 15 minutes early on Y and Z to make up the time. It didn’t even occur to me then that that might not be OK, but I just realized that that might be totally outside the scope of the flexibility you’ve granted me. Is my making up time like that OK, or how should I handle this in the future?” I *suspect,* knowing nothing of your manager, that this is totally NBD, so approaching it with pure contrition is likely to provoke a “Oh, no, Guppy, coming in 15 minutes early is TOTES fine. Don’t even worry about it. If it’s going to be more than that, run it past me first, but we don’t need to worry about 15 minute increments.” If the boss seems OK with it but doesn’t offer anything further, though, I would definitely politely press to figure out what the actual boundaries are, so you know that going forward. And if your boss is just super pissed about it, well, at least you were apologetic and up-front, so you’re still probably going to get the best outcome you could in that situation.
Revanche* February 21, 2015 at 1:51 am I agree with Kimberlee! I was going to echo some if it but there’s no need, she covered it :)
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 4:05 pm Yeah, this is what I do with my boss and everything is just fine. 1) Don’t wait for your boss to find you, go find her. 2) Tell her what you did. And say you hope it never happens again but in the future how would she like you to handle that differently. Your willingness to confront the situation and your willingness to follow her directions should work out just fine. She will be happy with you and you will be comfortable knowing what her expectations are.
Kimberlee, Esq.* February 20, 2015 at 6:08 pm Hey! I did something that I thought might be of interest to ya’ll: I’m hiring for a senior level position at a non-profit. I thought I had an awesome group as my final picks, sent them off to do interviews with the ED, aaaand… there was only one that he liked enough to make an offer to, and that offer was declined. So we were back to square one, and I started renewing/re-posting the position. Well, one of the candidates I’d previous rejected (after the exercise, so he’d advanced a little bit, but not to any interviews) emailed me saying that he was “in negotiations” for another job, but that if we were still looking, he’d be interested in being reconsidered. So, knowing more about the needs of the position than I did the first time (the ED told me exactly what had been lacking in a couple candidates, which was something I hadn’t realized he’d valued so much and so specifically), when I re-read his materials, he actually seemed like he could be a pretty great fit. But I waffled a bit. How weird is it to be rejected for a job, then take a shot in the dark and say “hey, I’d love to be re-considered,” which is something that I previously thought NEVER worked, and actually get an email back saying “Yeah, actually, I’d love to schedule a phone interview.” I actually considered not doing it… until I realized that 1) I really WAS working with a different set of assumptions before, so it’s totally reasonable to think some of these other rejections were ill-founded, and 2) the real reason I was thinking about not doing it was because I felt BAD. Like I should never have rejected him, and I was A Bad Person for not only putting him through an unnecessary rejection, but now possibly (maybe even probably?) putting him in the position of getting rejected twice for the same job. How crappy would that be? Now I’m starting to feel bad again. But I try to balance that with feeling good about the fact that there is one guy out there who, possibly against his better judgement, decided to reach out again even as he was on the cusp of another job, and it actually worked out. At least in the short term.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 7:52 pm I wonder if he’s in negotiations as a way to try and make you interested or wants another offer to up his current offer? Is it possible to do everything before he needs to respond to the other offer? I would screen carefully about a candidate who would do this. Don’t feel bad about a second rejection, he’s the one who asked to be reconsidered, that doesn’t mean he gets an offer.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 20, 2015 at 8:49 pm One thing to keep in mind: That guy knows rejection is a possibility (he’s not expecting you’ll now just hand him the job), and he’d almost certainly rather risk that chance than not get a shot at all.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 4:08 pm This sounds like stuff Alison has talked about in the past. I think that your intentions are sincere and his intentions are sincere. Let the rest go. Just interview the guy see where it lands.
Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.* February 20, 2015 at 6:13 pm We had our largest $$ ever, single order/product, in our division this past week, six figures. I am so crazy proud of everybody involved! We have been together for a long time and we’ve been working for years to get our process and our institutional knowledge up to the point where we could land and handle a project like this. (Seriously, four years ago my chief partner-in-crime and I sat down and said: we want to be able to get (this) kind of business, do you think we ever could? It seemed impossible to conceive, but we set to work.) Have you ever experienced that? We worked so hard and so long on our processes and our funnels and our education and our rapid response times and……….. it actually worked. And! It was like a relay team! This wasn’t just one sales rep. This was a funnel of people touching this opportunity all along the way and bringing it home. (BTW, this is our kind of team building exercise. The rest of ya’ll can go hike in the woods and use an outhouse for the weekend. We like this better. :) :) :) ) Seriously though, have you had this? Where you set out a long term institutional goal, transformation on an existing enterprise, and it worked?
C Average* February 20, 2015 at 6:19 pm Ahhhh, what a great post! Thanks for sharing your triumph. I read this with a big dumb grin on my face, I honestly did. And yes, please, to the suggestion of actual teamWORK as team-building exercise, rather than silly made-up imitations of teamwork. Congratulations!
Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.* February 20, 2015 at 6:25 pm Well we did have excellent celebratory food. there’s a “e” for “eat” in our TEAM. :p
Revanche* February 21, 2015 at 1:44 am Once, on a much smaller scale, but it was pretty fabulous so I can only imagine how awesome you feel right now. CONGRATS!
sunnysideup* February 20, 2015 at 6:24 pm Has anyone had experience with dealing with mental health topics at work? I started getting help a few months ago and my life is COMPLETELY different but I’m finally starting to unpack all the underlying issues. This is making it really difficult to concentrate at work because I can’t really “hear” anything over the roar of my own thoughts. I work as a contractor in a corporate office doing inbound “recruiting”/resume screening. How have other people kept productive at work while dealing with their outside stuff? Any advice is appreciated!
AnotherAlison* February 20, 2015 at 10:07 pm No real useful advice because I have no idea how you shut off the outside stuff, but what I can say is that I went through something similar, off and on for about 4 years. When I finally got through all my personal problems, I changed positions. My previous position wasn’t too demanding (no client deadlines or managing people) so it was good for surviving during that time. You might find you just get by right now, but you’ll be ready to grab the bull by the horns later.
Revanche* February 21, 2015 at 1:38 am I don’t think I’d have classified my issues as mental health but they affected it. At the time I was dealing with a challenging work environment that was so stressful I was nauseated the moment I put my key in the door in the morning. At home I had crushing family-incurred debt to pay off on their behalf, an ailing mother, a depressed and in denial father, and a freeloader sibling. Three things kept my head in the game at work: 1. Focus picture. I kept a picture of a destination I imagined to be uber relaxing on my desk. When the anger started distracting me (or any negative emotion, really), I stared at the photo and repeated: this is for Finland*! 2. Sanity checks. I had a couple mentors and friends I’d email whenever incredibly off the wall and illegal things happened that I couldn’t do anything about and ask for a reminder that it was most definitely not normal or OK. Conversely, keeping my boyfriend at the time completely uninvolved in either work or home life difficulty gave me one safe haven, one significant place in my life I didn’t have any of that pervasive stress. This taught me how to compartmentalize until I was good at it. 3. I started blogging about money. It was just a thing to do but it became my way of venting about the things that worried me about family, money, etc. That gave the personal things their own space away from my work mental space. I also hugged my dogs a lot in those years. They’re still good therapy :)
afiendishthingy* February 21, 2015 at 2:10 am That’s a tough one. I’ve seen a therapist for several years for anxiety and occasional depression as well as to manage ADHD, Between the ADHD and anxiety my brain is pretty noisy as well. The most flare up of the anxiety and depression wasn’t from “outside stuff,” it was from the stress of adjusting to my current job, which has considerably more responsibility than any of my previous jobs. I was unproductive because I was paralyzed by fear of making mistakes and causing some sort of irreparable harm. Decided it was time to go back on SSRIs (took for 2 or 3 years, then stopped for 2 or 3 years) after I cried at work for the third time in maybe 6 weeks. Now every client interaction doesn’t fill me with dread and I don’t lie in bed obsessively reviewing my mental list of every loose end and complication in every case. It’s nice. But anyway, that’s not to say your solution is Lexapro because it doesn’t sound from your description like you’re depressed or anxious, your brain is just chewing on the puzzle (mixed metaphor alert). My anxious thoughts are very loud while I’m driving, and talky podcasts like Serial helped with that, but I don’t think I could try to concentrate on work and follow the podcast at the same time. My focus is still pretty crappy thanks to ADHD but my best results are when I put on headphones, listen to music, and set a timer for 30 or 45 minutes and resolve to work on a specific task at least until the timer goes off. The headphones are great for blocking out the other people around me so I don’t feel the need to make a contribution to every conversation in the building, but I wear them sometimes when there’s nobody around and it’s kind of centering to eliminate all the ambient noise. Some pretty standard recommendations are to get regular exercise and to write in a journal to help do a brain dump and process. I pretty much never exercise these days (or any days), but I do think I should and it would help my focus. I journal sporadically, it helps sometimes. My journal tends to be pretty repetitive because it’s just me worrying about the same crap all the time, and then lists of happy thoughts and the things I’m going to do differently, like exercise and get more sleep instead of writing obnoxiously verbose blog comments at 2 am. But since you’re trying to really figure some stuff out, writing every day might be a good way to do that and hopefully empty your brain out enough that you can work. Ok. I am so sorry that went on so long, I also started a new ADHD med this week. Hopefully you can wade through that and find something of use . Good luck, and good for you for starting on this path.
sunnysideup* February 23, 2015 at 11:48 am Thanks everyone for the advice! It helps just knowing that there are other people out there.
S* February 20, 2015 at 6:25 pm Interview next week! I haven’t done one in about 6 months and this is the first interview I’ve gotten in this round of job-searching. So, very exciting! I don’t know if I’d take this position if offered (the fit seems great on paper for my interests, but I… want to get out of the city I’m in now), but I do plan on giving this interview my all, and at worst, taking it as practice for any future interviews. It also means the pressure is off, just a little bit. Whew!
Ruffingit* February 20, 2015 at 9:20 pm It was a long week and I am just exhausted. I realized recently that I need to start doing way more self-care stuff than I’ve been doing because, although I love my actual job, the job atmosphere is not a good thing thanks to arrogant prick boss. Therefore, I come home wrung out and exhausted a lot of the time. I’ve gained weight, I’m tired physically and mentally. So, it’s time to make some changes. I started drinking more water this week and next week I’ll be back in the gym starting with some 20-minute walks on the treadmill and working my way up to more vigorous exercise. Feeling good about feeling good once again :)
Revanche* February 21, 2015 at 1:13 am Rooting you on! I spent a long two years feeling drained like that in a previous job and lacked the perspective or objectivity to realize that it’d long crossed the line past normal.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 4:13 pm This self-care stuff seems to be going around. It sounds like you are on a good track. Yep, don’t let stupid boss wear you down- you have too much to offer.
NoPantsFridays* February 20, 2015 at 9:37 pm My work shoes have ripped. They are just normal women’s dress shoes. Apparently not that well made. But they were the only pair that fit in all of DSW (a shoe store). I have only one pair, so I’ve been wearing my dressy/work-appropriate boots in the office this past week. I think they are acceptable, thankfully, because my coworkers and even my manager were like “nice boots”. Phew. Anyway, I need new dress shoes now. Problems include my massively wide, size 11 (women’s) feet. I’ve never had a narrow width or size 10 fit, so maybe 10.5 WIDE at the smallest. I don’t need wide-calf but I do need WIDE-width. I’m open to wearing androgynously styled men’s shoes, as I’ve worn men’s athletic shoes and steel toed boots without issue. Any suggestions?
AnotherAlison* February 20, 2015 at 10:01 pm Wing tips! I have avg feet, but I like them just because I want a real freaking shoe sometimes. Most women’s shoes aren’t very practical. I want something that laces up and is durable.
BRR* February 20, 2015 at 10:12 pm Have you tried zappos? So many selections and it’s free shipping and free returns.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 8:38 am Or Amazon, even. I have wide feet and I haven’t bought shoes at a brick and mortar for years. I’m surprised NoPants managed to score a pair at DSW.
Jean* February 21, 2015 at 1:10 am As somebody with feet like a duck (narrow heels & wide, wide toes) I’ve never had much luck with pumps. Over the years I have done well with t-straps, slingbacks, Mary Janes and/or fisherman’s sandals. Caveat: I’ve spent almost all of my professional life in business casual, academic, or nonprofit environments. Brands that have worked for me over the years include: easy spirit, Naturalizer, Reiker, Propet, LLBean (sandals), Bass, and Arcopedico. Years ago I also wore SAS and (when they were not quite so crazy expensive) Birkenstock. A friend of mine with wide feet swears by Clarks but I have never found a pair to fit me comfortably. Buying shoes online takes time, persistence, and patience but _will_ eventually yield results. Helpful hints: – use the sort-by-size-and-width features available on most web sites – learn which styles and brands work best, or worst, with your feet so you know what to seek out or avoid – check multiple sites: Zappos, Maryland Square, and others the names of which I now forget – search for blogs about wide shoes, or hard-to-fit-feet because they reference specific brands and styles – search online for brick-and-mortar stores in your area that sell “Comfort Shoes” or “Walking Shoes.” Nordstrom’s (either brick-and-mortar or online) has a good reputation for serving hard-to-fit customers. I’ve always hung back because I thought that their prices were beyond my budget.
NoPantsFridays* February 21, 2015 at 12:42 pm Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I’ll try the online route. My office is business casual so basically anything remotely dressy would be fine. I also don’t do heels well and I’m confident I can find some flatter options online. Thanks all!
Arjay* February 21, 2015 at 1:53 pm Footsmart has a lot of shoes for problem feet and a good search function. This is 11W dress shoes: http://bit.ly/1zvCb2p
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 4:18 pm I can’t believe I am saying this but… Kmart. I have very wide feet, I wear about a size 9. Additionally, my feet do not forgive me. The shoe must, absolutely must fit me nicely or I am in PAIN. You might be able to find something cheap that you can tolerate while you search for your real shoes. I have bought cheap men’s boots there for snow blowing, etc and been pretty happy with the boots. They last about a year or two, then I toss them and start over.
beckythetechie* February 23, 2015 at 2:15 am You’ll think I’m nuts, but Crocs makes some surprisingly nice business/office casual shoes that are reasonably priced. They have a Maryjane type called the “Alice” that runs quite narrow, but at least they have reviews that will tell you whether it runs big/small and allow you to sort by size. I regularly wear an 8.5-9 and in the Alice I need a 10, so you would likely want the 12. But it comes in a 12, which is saying something for a lot of shoe types.
voluptuousfire* February 20, 2015 at 9:49 pm Google Duo Boots. I can’t speak for the quality (they appear to be pricey), but they do appear to carry sizes 11 and 12 and offer wide widths. They even give you the measurements for wide width shoes, so that can help a lot.
SuzanneM* February 20, 2015 at 10:22 pm I finally got a job offer last Friday after 3 years of working as a temp and searching for an academic advising position. This week I’ve been waiting for the background check email, only to find out at 5:20 tonight that there’s a “paperwork glitch”…. basically, University is hiring 2 people for the one open position, and has to open another position specifically for me. Thankfully this doesn’t affect my start date, but it might have! I’m so relieved to know there’s nothing serious, and part of the reason I hadn’t lost my mind completely was because of things I’ve read here. So, thank you, Alison!! You’re a lifesaver.
AKB* February 20, 2015 at 11:33 pm I’m hoping there might be some feds who have advice for me. I’ve been at my agency for about 2.5 years. I was promoted last July, but have taken on substantially more responsibility in the last few months (basically a whole different person’s job in a related, but distinct field – think project manager vs. analyst). From my read of the GS promotion rules, it seems like I’m out of luck until I hit the 52 week mark. Is there anything to suggest that might not be the case?
AnotherFed* February 22, 2015 at 7:51 pm I think that’s accurate, especially if you’re above GS-11. However, they might be able to promote you by accretion, meaning they declare that your billet has accumulated sufficient responsibility to be elevated to a higher grade. In that case, your billet and you both get a raise. I’m not sure if accretion is still allowed, though – my agency has pretty much banned it, so the upgraded position has to be posted and competitively selected, so the 1 year rule applies.
Lulubell* February 21, 2015 at 12:39 am Just a note that I can’t access this post on my computer – I keep getting a 504 host error message. I can access the main page, but not the comments. I thought it might be because of so many comments, but it appears I can view it from my iPhone. Just FYI.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 21, 2015 at 12:45 am The site was down for a little while just now, but it’s back up now!
AnotherFed* February 22, 2015 at 7:52 pm I’ve noticed it’s been intermittently down a lot over the past week or so. Is there something going on, or just gremlins being gremlins?
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 22, 2015 at 11:39 pm Yeah, a couple of different issues hit this week. Mostly fixed now though.
Fruitfly* February 21, 2015 at 1:01 am Hi everyone, How would you go about applying for a position at another department in your company? When will you let your current manager know that you have applied? How would you schedule the interview?
Jules* February 23, 2015 at 9:01 am Look at the company’s policy. Some companies requests that you get your current supervisor’s support before they would consider your application. But it would make sense to give an FYI to your manager so he/she is not caught unawares.
Oh anon* February 21, 2015 at 3:41 am Guys, I am having a major panic attack. I just noticed an email I sent earlier today, to a perspective employer, had two ridiculously stupid typos and I am freaking out. I don’t know how I (or spell check) missed them, but we did and now I feel like an idiot. What should I do? I don’t want to send a corrected email, because that would just draw attention to it. I really hope I haven’t messed up my chances. Would you still consider hiring someone with a couple typos in their email, if their cover letter & resume was great or did I blow it?
Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.* February 21, 2015 at 5:10 am Sure, it’s not great to have typos in emails but to me typos in resumes are a bigger deal. We all typo emails. I’d spend 5 seconds reading your email and the bulk of read time on the cover letter and the resume. So try not to worry! Your typo might be missed entirely.
Anonymous Educator* February 21, 2015 at 10:43 am Yeah, your best bet is to hope they don’t notice. P.S. Since we’re talking about typos, I hope you don’t think I’m being pedantic in pointing out it should be prospective employer and not perspective employer.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 4:21 pm I assume this is part of the panic, in a clear moment OP would have twigged that one. OP, breathe. Inhale, exhale slowly. Yeah, they could toss your app. But maybe most people had ten errors, so your two errors are not a problem. Keep positive images in your head.
oh anon* February 21, 2015 at 11:51 pm I’ve been dealing with depression, which seems to cause a brain fog, causing me to do really stupid things, which cause a panic attack and the panic attack make the fog worse. I’m really trying to stay positive and just put it out of my mind; there’s nothing I can do now.
oh anon* February 21, 2015 at 11:52 pm Thank you. The horrible thing is, I most certainly know the difference!
Lisbonslady* February 21, 2015 at 6:04 am Hopefully someone will still see this. I’m curious how many people have task lists/to do lists that you keep with your managers and are also expected to provide written weekly updates? Just started a new job and I have two managers. Each had a task list for me and they want me to email weekly updates. There is a lot of focus on ‘what are you working on’ and I’ve never had to account for my time or work like this. In the past I have been given tasks and completed them but never had to go through this kind of process. Then we also have a weekly meeting to review the list line by line. One of my managers has a secretary who also has her task list (of course!) and tried to explain to me how she puts things in different colors on the list but I can use whatever system I like…… uh ok… I just want to do my work! Has anyone else seen this kind of thing? This feels so micro managy to me and actually takes a lot of time. I can see why these managers seem to be viewed as outsiders and poor communicaters by others in the company (I’ve picked up on a vibe from some off handed comments here and there).. any suggestions? Figure I just have to do what I’m told but figured it couldn’t hurt to put it out there.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 8:33 am I don’t think task lists and weekly updates are a bad thing, actually. It’s the sort of thing people often keep for themselves anyway; this is just looping your managers in. It also sounds like it could be a good way to deal with having two different managers, which can be confusing. If there are things you’d change about the task list, I think it would be reasonable to propose those changes; I also think that when you’ve been there a while, they may be a little less focused on the lists. But overall this seems like organizing and documenting, not micromanaging, and I think it could be a really helpful way for you to know you’re meeting expectations in the early days of a job.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 8:36 am Reconsidering a little–depending on the job, having somebody else do a task list for me might be weird. What I’d do in that case is propose I create my own and log it with the managers instead.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 21, 2015 at 10:50 am What kind of job is it? For a lot of jobs, this is pretty normal.
Lisbonslady* February 21, 2015 at 12:28 pm I’m a coordinator/assistant… the job is largely administrative, research, a little bit of everything really. We are working on a large conference and I work for the programming team. I’m not clicking with my manager at all (of the two managers one reports to the other but I work for both) so that is not helping. I’ve never had anyone manage my work like this. I had managers give me tasks and then follow up to make sure they were done, or I would let them know, if they didn’t become otherwise aware. I certainly keep my own to do list but to have one on Google docs to have to check everyday to see if my manager has updated something… i guess that’s the way they organize themselves. And for all the documenting and meetings and such there are a lot of communication issues so it’s not very effective from what I can see.
Jules* February 23, 2015 at 8:58 am I love it actually. In my other job, it let’s my supervisor know what my work load look like. The bonus is that at the end of the year when you have to do performance review, I compiled all the reports into a Clift note version and can do it fairly quickly. I don’t have to do it now but I keep my list anyways so that in case I am asked if I have capacity and my work timeline, a quick glance could give me the answer I need.
Brit in the US* February 21, 2015 at 6:30 am I’ve been filling in temporarily in a position that would be a promotion for me if it were to become permanent. A week ago, I decided to formally apply. Since then, the hiring manager who I now directly report to hasn’t said a word about my application. To be honest, the position is a stretch for me, and I would understand if they didn’t want me to take the role permanently. I’m just surprised the manager didn’t say a word. I’m a little worried I’m being taken advantage of- I’ll bust a gut in the hopes of promotion and then be sent back to my old position! Is it too soon to ask how the hiring process is going, or is this one of those times I should just be patient?
Amber* February 21, 2015 at 8:01 am Be patient! They may not have even looked at the applications yet. Did you discuss your decision to apply with the hiring manager beforehand? You’d be doing your best in this role anyway, right? So they can’t really take advantage since you’d be working just as hard, and it sounds like you agreed to take the role temporarily before you decided to apply for it.
Brit in the US* February 22, 2015 at 5:44 am Hm. Food for thought. I probably should have spoken to him first, but my manager encouraged me to apply and they’re all pretty close to each other so I guess I made a silly assumption. The only hesitation with busting a gut in this role is that it could impact my progress in my professional exams. Put me back a year kind of impact, which would be hard to swallow if there were no promotion at the end of it.
little Cindy Lou who* February 21, 2015 at 8:40 am I probably would’ve spoken to the hiring manager before applying but I’d broach the topic now by asking her/him if they’d be willing to discuss how your performance in the stretch role has measured to date, whether you might be a good fit now or down the road, and if down the road what skills might you need to hone to be a stronger candidate next time. The manager might also not know that you applied yet if HR is gathering and reviews resumes first etc
anonyclass* February 21, 2015 at 8:53 am How should I go about helping to fill an open role on my team? To clarify, it’s technically a peer role. My manager asked me to help find someone. I had initially gone through the list of my previous coworkers (the ones I keep in touch with anyway) at former employers, decided who had the right skills and would fit in the team and contacted them. range of answers from too far to commute/can’t relocate, just started another new job, looking for something with more wfh, etc. All ok. That was a few months ago. The request to help find someone like us for this role came up again the other day. Do I check back in with my network to see who they might know? Never had a hand in hiring before.
fposte* February 21, 2015 at 9:34 am Is there a reason why posting the opening and doing a regular hiring process isn’t an option?
anonyclass* February 21, 2015 at 10:18 am It’s a bit like over the past few years they tried listing it, and tried recruiters, and though a few hires were made along the way they all jumped ship in less than 6 months. I know that seems like red flag central but I think it was just bad capacity to gauge fit (from commute, other commitments/priorities etc to the balance of skills in this hybrid role) because nothing about the role, department, company, culture or management style should make a normal person run for the hills. You do need to be truly self-starting and autonomous, but it is a supportive, friendly group and questions will be answered when asked. I think the request came out of frustration with those usual chanels, particularly in finding the right culture fit in the small pool of those with right chops. I do know people who could thrive here, like I think was the hope, but I can’t just physically drag them in the door if they’ve politely declined, particularly since that’s probably what makes for a bad culture fit. Should I offer to review resumes or do some phone screening? Could it be interviewer fatigue on my manager’s part? I feel like “I already tried my network” is lame and unhelpful.
Customer Service Manager* February 21, 2015 at 11:09 am A candidate in my department got an offer this past week. Today, I did some googling and found the candidate’s instragram account, twitter etc. All of the social media accounts show photos of bags of weed, bongs, pipes and indications that the person drives while under the influence. Would this be a deal-breaker for you because of the bad judgment?
Apollo Warbucks* February 21, 2015 at 11:32 am Only driving under the influence bothers me, I don’t think there’s much wrong with smoking pot.
KAZ2Y5* February 21, 2015 at 1:11 pm I would think it spectacularly dumb, but I work in the medical field where random drug tests are a way of life.
Liane* February 21, 2015 at 1:30 pm I meant to post this in the previous Work Open Thread, but was recovering from 1 of the bad illnesses going around. About a week & a half ago, Alison was kind enough to provide a quick emailed-answer to my question about a conference call related to my volunteer work as a low-level officer in one of the international Star Wars costuming groups. Since I’d never been on a conference call and this was being led by employees of the company that owns Star Wars, I knew who to go to. Thanks, Alison! I know you aren’t able to do that all the time & it gave me confidence. I got some extra reassurance when I learned a friend would be on the call as well. It went really well. I am sure it was a little more casual than a call with only, say, employees of partner/vendor firms would have been. The Events person, Leia, who was leading the call has worked with the 2 or 3 major costuming clubs for a long time & understands how to treat volunteers. We were repeatedly told how much we were appreciated and given as much clarification as needed to make sure everyone understood the topics covered. No easy matter, since this call included many fan costumers from a number of countries. They were also happy to address issues that weren’t closely related to those topics. I came away impressed with company and the 3 on the call with us. The only thing that bothered me–which wasn’t the fault of the company & its representatives at all–was the number of times Leia and her 2 colleagues had to request that people get off speakerphones. This was stated plainly in the email with the call-in information, so I felt that they shouldn’t have needed to do more than remind callers at the beginning. I was amazed that they kept a polite, even kind, tone after the third time. (On the bright side, I am a good customer service rep & now I have an example of how to do even better.) I did mainly listen, but asked a few questions during the Q&A section. Things were a little more chaotic in that part, but the few times people accidentally started talking at the same time, were handled without fuss. Example: I and a GErman man started about the same time. He said, “The lady should speak first” and after my question was answered, I said, “Now it’s the turn of the kind gentleman who let me go ahead of him.” Oh yes, it was also very cool to do this. Up my Geek Cred while getting a little experience with something I could use in professional life!
asteramella* February 23, 2015 at 10:48 pm Yes, it would be a deal breaker. Even if you personally don’t have a problem with pot, DUI is unacceptable. And more distantly, depending on your industry, the candidate is a representative of your organization and their conduct online does reflect on the organization to an extent.
SystemsLady* February 21, 2015 at 11:56 am My boss made the following comment to a coworker in another department this week (while talking about how much time it would take me to complete a training module): “SystemsLady – and male coworker – are the smartest young chocolate teapot architects I know in this region. But I don’t want them to know that.” Naturally, she told us, but that strikes us as a strange comment to make. For some idea of context, neither of us has ever received a performance review.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 21, 2015 at 12:05 pm I’d interpret that as a well-intentioned joke about not wanting you to get a huge ego.
SystemsLady* February 21, 2015 at 12:11 pm We did think of that possibility, but I guess the lack of feedback we get otherwise threw
SystemsLady* February 21, 2015 at 12:25 pm *us off. (And less because he doesn’t say we’re doing well, but more because he’s never really provided feedback the other way) For all his other negatives, he does seem to really like us in particular so that’s probably what he meant. I’m not sure why our coworker didn’t read it like that, though. She tends to “go to bat” for us and our coworkers, so perhaps she was just too frustrated that he doesn’t give any of us feedback to take it that way.
Not So NewReader* February 21, 2015 at 4:25 pm I guess he meant what he said. He thinks highly of you and does not want you to know it. Some people manage this way.
NewJobandLonely* February 21, 2015 at 12:23 pm I was head hunted by another company and started a new job with them this week. My old job had a corporate office of around 50, largely female, with many people close to my age (mid 20s-early 30s). In the 3 years I worked there I amassed many very close friends. My new job is a step up in my career, with a boss I really click with, and work more in line with what I enjoy– however with a staff of only 15, I can’t help but feel very lonely! I know that the point of work is not to socialize, but any advice for stopping this lonely feeling? Everyone at my new office seems very tightly knit, but they haven’t let me into the fold yet (understandably) and it has me missing my old crew. I don’t want the lonely funk to distract me from an otherwise awesome opportunity .
Mimmy* February 21, 2015 at 12:55 pm I can’t get the font size thingy to work – not sure if I lost my “cookies” but it’s back to default size on my screen, and I can’t click the “A”s to change it.
Ask a Manager* Post authorFebruary 21, 2015 at 12:57 pm I’ve been making some repairs on the site this morning and temporarily disabled that. Try it now!
Buu* February 22, 2015 at 11:01 am I’ve spoken before about my Boss’s inattention and it’s leading to stuff getting overlooked, but things recently escalated especially since we’re getting very busy. One day I finished my tasks and thought I would ask my boss if he needed anything else done. He forwarded me an email chain where another dept asked for work doing and said ” You can help with this” , my boss had replied back with some basic questions on how to do that task and then someone had replied back clarifying how to do the task. My boss didn’t say anything further to me. I went ahead and followed those instructions and got and instant result ( but at a guess this was 5% of the entire task). I turned to my boss and said “Boss, I set up Task X and got a result immediately do you want me to write up that result, or wait until you’ve had a chance to divide up the work?”. My boss then snapped back ” I thought we were doing Task X together, go on and do it all yourself then”. I tried to ask how he envisioned the task going forward, because he’d given me no instructions. I hadn’t set out to do the work for him, I’d just read the e-mail, followed the instructions and then made sure my set up worked, but he just replied ” I said just do it.” I then spent the entire day doing the task on my own, with no idea if he actually wanted me to do it. A few days later my boss made some irrelevant comments about the work I was doing. At first I said ” OK” , but he kept repeating his request. I tried to explain I was doing something else but that I would of course make sure I did the actual task he was talking about like he wanted, but he would not listen. I admit here I’m also in the wrong as I eventually snapped back ” I am checking the teapot handles not the forks right now”. After that a few days later he took me into the meeting room ( and I honestly thought it was going to be my overdue annual review) and called me “Passive aggressive.” Now I know I should not have snapped but he also brought up the task I ended up spending all day doing by myself. I appologised again for snapping , and again explained in the other incident all I’d done was set things up and asked how he would have liked me to do that task, he wouldn’t explain. There’s been a bad vibe between us ever since it happened. After the day long task I’m really nervous about doing stuff without asking because he seems to think when I get on with things that I’m somehow undermining him, but then sometimes he’ll just say ” I’m busy you’re in charge of day to day tasks today” but even on days where he doesn’t say this I usually have to ask him what he wants doing ( and even then he’ll often say ‘ I don’t know), so I’ll go off and find something to do. I think management have started to notice that there are tasks going undone, my boss will tell other depts we’re too busy moments after telling me there’s nothing to do. I feel like a big part of the problem is my boss is not organised and is not tracking what is and isn’t done . I can never tell when he’ll respond normally and when he’ll snap back at me. I feel the only thing I’ve done wrong is snap back that one time. For what it’s worth I have another co-worker who is on another project but is helping us out. I asked them to check over my work and they couldn’t see any major problems. I’m wondering if it’s a good idea to start tracking what I do with my day in a private Excel sheet/Word doc, so if he tries to blame me for stuff not getting done I have a record of what I am doing and what he’s asked me to do. But aside from that I’m not sure how to proceed. I honestly think he’s struggling with his job, and I’m not sure to what extent management know. Do you think keeping a log of my work is a good idea? Any tips on how and what to note down?
GOG11* February 22, 2015 at 5:13 pm I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. I struggle to understand what it is that my manager wants due to lack of clarity/information given up front and then I struggle with feeling like I bug them too much or that I should just know what to do somehow – and that’s on top of the stress that comes from doing the actual work. It’s not a fun place to be and I’m sorry that’s where you are right now. I would recommend keeping a log. It seems like you have a “paper trail” anyways due to the emails, but if you ever need to document what’s going on, it will be much easier to use this as a reference than try to remember everything all at once. I would note the project, task, and way it was assigned to you (i.e., ’16 chocolate teapot model design, handle materials proposal, per Boss’ email on Feb 22). I would also make a note of attempts you’ve made to clarify how things should be handled in the future. It seems like your attempts to seek clarification for how to handle things in the future aren’t yielding results because your boss doesn’t have a consistent way of handling things. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to go to someone else regarding this type of issue. Most of the time, issues should be worked out with management, but there are some instances where you have tried that, it didn’t work, and you need to escalate things. I don’t know if this is that sort of case and, if so, how to do that. I really hope others will see this and chime in with more advice. Best of luck to you, Buu.
Buu* February 22, 2015 at 5:25 pm Thanks GoG11 , that sounds like a sensible way to log things! ( and thanks for reading that wall of text).
Not So NewReader* February 22, 2015 at 6:39 pm ” I can never tell when he’ll respond normally and when he’ll snap back at me” That one sentence is grounds to start looking for another job. No one deserves to be snapped at. And no one should have to walk on eggs to get through their work day. It sounds like you are not getting enough instruction/information to do you job. Any normal human being would fail at this point. I do not think your boss is a reasonable person, based on the examples you give here. And that is the biggest reason why you don’t know how to remedy the situation. Yes, you can keep a log. That might help. If he says do X, ask him if you can finish Y first, or does he want you to start X immediately. That might help sometimes. Keep all of his emails. They might be handy at some point. But mostly, I’d say, work on finding something else. Maybe you can make a lateral move in your company. A freaked out boss very seldom calms down and regains control. Often they just remain freaked out until they crash and burn. This process can take a very long time. Don’t wait around for it. I am sorry you are going through this. Do your best to stay organized and keep track of what you are doing. Try to show concern for his concerns more often. Offer him choices where ever possible. “Do you want me to do A or B first?”or “Do you want me to start this or wait for you?” Remember if you say something supportive five times, he may only hear you say one supportive thing. So be sure to say supportive things through out your day. “You mentioned yesterday afternoon you were concerned about the Smith account, so I checked into it. Here is what I found: ______.” Whatever you do – don’t let him see that you think you know better than he does. EVEN if you actually do know better than he does. Do not let him see that. Any concerns you have frame them as questions. For example, he is worried about the Smith account but you happen to know the Jones account is having major problems. So that would look like “Okay, I will look at Smith right away. Oh, btw, I was also concerned about Jones because of X, do you want me to look at that too?” Do Smith first because that is his worry, then do Jones if he okays it. Do the things he tells you he is thinking about first.
Casey* February 23, 2015 at 5:41 am Am I doomed? Most jobs I’ve applied to (about 500 or more in the past 2mo) are entry level and all require and online pre-employment screening/assessment test, like Brass Ring or Taleo. I would like to point out that about 99% of the 500 or more jobs I’ve applied to, I’ve failed this test. These jobs cover a multitude of industries and jobs – most as simple as backroom stock man, cashier, cook, janitor, etc. I’ve stuck with telling the truth, I’ve stuck with lying, I’ve done everything I can imagine to try and beat these types of tests on my own, but I can’t pass! Am I doomed?
Buu* February 23, 2015 at 3:06 pm Are these jobs all for big companies/franchises? Is so perhaps try for smaller firms or local businesses?
Casey* February 24, 2015 at 11:20 am Some for big franchises, some for local, some for all. I can’t figure it out, and the best I’ve received has been through sending out rogue resumes.
ism* February 23, 2015 at 10:24 am Darn it, I’m always busy on Fridays by the time the open thread comes around. I hope this comment isn’t too late, and it’s not a present matter. Just something I was curious about. I very briefly was employed at a call center. We didn’t fill out withholding forms when I and other newbies were hired for a quarterly project the call center handles. And we got handwritten paper paychecks with nothing withheld, and no information besides that. I ended up losing the job because public transportation was difficult with that particular schedule and location, so I was late too many times. They tracked our hours with time sheets, required us to be at work at scheduled shifts, with scheduled breaks, and a very strict attendance policy. And of course we were on site using their office equipment. Fast forward a few months to a new tax year and I was doing my taxes. I called them to ask about reporting my income for tax purposes. I was informed that figuring out withholding and what I owe the government on my paycheck, was my responsibility because I was a contractor, not an employee. So I looked around but my records of the pay weren’t easy to find right away. I called my old supervisor back and asked her if she could at least send me some kind of pay stub or report of what they’d paid. (I assumed that info would be no problem for their payroll person to find). On this second conversation with her she was very short with me, seemed irritated that I was still bugging her, and basically said I should have been more responsible about keeping records for myself and that they couldn’t help me and to please not call again. First of all I didn’t realize the difference between an employee and a contractor at that time. (Thanks to this blog, I do, hence this question) Second of all, we weren’t told we were contractors and we weren’t given any information to lead us to believe we were anything but employees. It was ignorant not to wonder about the fact we didn’t fill out W-4s, but oh well. I was miffed. I ended up reporting the income on my taxes without a W2 and it didn’t make a difference because I earned so little. But I wonder if it made a difference when all the other hires did their taxes… or if they instructed those hires in any way later on down the road after I’d been fired. So question: Is this legal? What should I have done? Why do you think the company did things this way and were so rude?
De Minimis* February 23, 2015 at 1:28 pm Some of the people more astute in employment law will hopefully add more, but it sounds like one of those cases where the company says you’re a contractor but the IRS may not agree. There are specific rules about what makes someone a contractor instead of an employee, and that’s what determines a person’s status, it’s not up to the company to decide. What you’re describing sounds more like an employee to me. I believe there’s some kind of paperwork you can file with the IRS, but hopefully someone else will fill in the details. I don’t know if there’s any real relief for the worker [sounds like you were lucky your time there was too brief to have a negative impact on your tax bill], but the employer can get hit with significant penalties for playing these type of games with employees.
Law School Admin* February 23, 2015 at 7:09 pm Ugh I made adumb mistake and need some advice. I work for a university and saw a job opening listed on our job board for a position in another department (and at another campus). I applied for the job using the normal external application, since that is what I got automatically directed to when I began the application. I thought that was strange, since I knew there was an separate application for internal staff transfers, but I figured this job was different and applied anyway. Just out of curiosity, I created a new login, and this time when I went to apply, it gave me the option to do the internal transfer application. So, should I also complete the internal transfer application? I get the feeling internal applications may be given slightly higher priority, but I don’t want to look stupid by submitting two applications. Should I email HR and ask them to withdraw my original application so I can submit the internal one?
ism* February 24, 2015 at 9:43 am I would go ahead and submit the internal application, and then contact HR to let them know about the mistake. They may not be able to “withdraw” the original application since it’s possible your info was already forwarded to concerned parties, but I do think it’s important to get it on the record that you intend for the internal application only to be considered.
Buu* February 24, 2015 at 3:41 am E-mail HR and say that there was a fault with the site and you got redirected to the wrong page and ask them how to proceed. They’ll want to know if the system is malfunctioning.