open thread – February 6, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,233 comments… read them below }

  1. Betty*

    Busy people! I need organization tips. How do you keep track of everything you need to do? I’m normally a post-it person but my workload has tripled and I’m having trouble keeping track of things. I need a way to stay on top of immediate to-dos, long-term to-dos, and things that may not necessarily require action but that I need to be aware of. So far I’m managing to stay on top of everything but I feel like at any moment I could lose it.

    I’m wondering if I should start utilizing my iPad more but I’m not sure how to transition from post-its to a tablet.

    Tips? Suggestions?

    1. Kyrielle*

      I’m just checking out Trello. I can’t advocate for it yet because I literally just loaded it yesterday, but so far, it looks promising. It’s a web site and an app for your iPad (or in my case iPhone).

      And at least on my phone it was free. There are paid expansions, but I can explore the basics for free, so…win.

      1. Ethyl*

        I was literally coming here to ask about Trello! I use Basecamp at my current job but am looking to start a nonprofit in the next year or so, so something free is particularly attractive, since at least one of my collaborators is in a different city. I’d love to hear everyone’s thoughts!!!

        1. CherryScary*

          I’ve used both Basecamp and Trello, and I found Trello 100x easier to use. Its pretty straightforward, and you can find lots of templates out there that you can modify to your needs.

      2. Mary (in PA)*

        I love Trello for projects! I haven’t used it for personal organizing, but for projects, it’s great. It gets you out of that “Oh, it’s in your email” mentality, though it will take a group some time to get used to it.

        My own favorite personal organizing tip is to take five minutes at the end of my day to write down what I need to do in the next day. It’s super helpful to get to work in the morning and be able to start right away.

        1. nep*

          I’m an evening list-maker too. (Just plain old pen and paper.) Helps me immensely.
          I also have a steno pad (use whatever sort of notebook or electronic device suits) that I keep with me all the time for things that come up throughout the day — Things I’ve got to jot down to be incorporated into the to-do list, things I want to look up, what have you. Sort of like that ‘miscellaneous’ folder that you go through and sort at the end of the day.

          1. Lizzie*

            Same. I learned this from my first boss, who probably kept the 3×5 notebook companies in business.

        2. Anony-moose*

          I started using Trello for my to-do list about a month ago and I am so obsessed with it. It’s AMAZING. I love how forgiving it is, how easy it is to use, how I can look at all the color-coded tabs and assess my day at a snap, and how I can email to certain boards.

          I think the best value for me has been the “later” board and the “wishlist” board. It helps me prioritize what I need to do so I can tackle those two boards on a weekly basis.

        3. Karowen*

          Conversely, I only use Trello for personal things! To do lists around the house, shopping lists, Christmas gift lists, etc. It’s pretty fantastic on that end, but I can’t speak to it in a professional sense.

          I also make a list of items to deal with as I leave work each day, and I also try to keep my inbox very clean so that the only items in it are items that I need to deal with. And I flag those and have them marked in different categories so Outlook reminds me to follow up and I can know at a glance why I need this information.

          1. Anony-moose*

            I’ve been using it for home stuff too! I emailed myself my flight itinerary for an upcoming trip, ideas for holiday presents, and even tax information I know I will need shortly.

            And then I have boards with things like “to do – get a flu shot.” It really is a fantastic tool.

      3. Risa*

        I don’t like Trello for anything remotely complicated. I need at time functionality that includes reporting…. but my biggest peeve is that I can’t assign due dates to individual items on a checklist on a card. So it totally depends on what your needs are. Definitely think about how detailed you want to be in your organizing. I personally use a simple excel spreadsheet with a few columns including a sequential numbering (for sorting), task name, primarily person responsible (if group work), estimated due done, actual completion date, status (not started, in progress, contingent, complete, late) and notes. I can print it easily if I feel the need for the paper and pen, or if I want to have something I can jot new to-dos on in a meeting.

    2. Sadsack*

      I use Outlook at work, and utilize the reminder flags, task list, and pst folders for certain things. I have many routine deadlines, but I tack a handwritten list to my cubicle wall of the deadlines that are not routine, usually a month at a time. I am also tracking these bigger items with my Outlook task list, but I like them to be in front of me where I can glance over and remember what I need to get done in the next week or month.

      1. Sadsack*

        Thought I’d add that my manager is the post-it king — seeing post-its all over his desk makes me wonder how he can stay organized, but somehow it seems to work for him. I would fail miserably if that’s how I tried to stay organized.

    3. Helen*

      Is this for work? I keep a spreadsheet of all projects/deadlines. The columns are something like this “name of project,” “client,” “due date,” “what has been done,” “what needs to be done,” “waiting for X from Y,” etc. When I’m done I highlight the row in grey and move it to the top.

    4. kozinskey*

      (Repeat post because I accidentally posted this as a separate comment) — I have a Word document on my desktop listing in outline form the things I need to get done that I check each morning. I organize it by deadline with the most important things at the top and most new stuff at the bottom. It’s not a perfect system but it helps me stay focused and keep from forgetting about things I need to do.

    5. Future Analyst*

      I find that using my Outlook calendar is very useful to keep track of items that need to happen, because by scheduling time to deal with x, y, and z, you can actually see what you have time for, and what will need to wait. That way you don’t walk into every day with a list that contains 24 hours of work to be done. And don’t schedule something for every single block of time: try to keep at least three hours a day free, so that you have capacity to deal with things that come up (as they always do), and you can use some of that time to work on long-term to-dos. Alternatively, if you find that your long-term to-dos keep getting pushed out, start adding time on your weekly calendar to address them.

      Hope that helps!

    6. HeyNonnyNonny*

      If you like post-its for the physical/writing aspect, then giant monthly calendar is the way I go. I can write in all my due dates, see everything in a glance, and put date-less items along the side in the ‘notes’ section.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. I tried several systems, but it turns out, I work best with my old fashioned linear mind, with a physical calendar I can write on. I have high lighters to mark different categories of task. I also keep a running list in a word document.

    7. C Average*

      What are you trying to keep track of? Information or tasks or both?

      I know there are lots of organization philosophies out there, and there are adherents to all of them. I like a tags-and-flags approach, and I like having everything in one tool. I live and die by Outlook. I use the “categorize” function a lot, I create tasks for myself a lot, and I sometimes intentionally search-optimize my own content by making sure I use certain keywords in my responses to ensure that I can easily find the right thread. It feels intuitive to me.

      What feels intuitive to you? Start there and build. Do you like having everything in one tool, or do you like having a whole tool kit with a specialized tool for each thing? Are you a paper person or a screens person? Do you tend to remember things by words, names, visuals, etc.?

    8. Lore*

      My overall to-do list is an Excel spreadsheet, organized by project. I’ve got conditional formatting set up to highlight anything whose next due date is this week no matter how it’s sorted (though I usually do keep it sorted by date); the other columns are completion date, next task, notes, and then a couple of other columns for specific features that need approval by someone else for each project (which also use conditional formatting to highlight things waiting on certain actions). Now, I should note that my department also operates a master FileMaker database which holds overall project schedules, so it’s pretty easy for me to update to the next task/next-stage due date in my own spreadsheet when the time comes. I also use Outlook flags/tasks/reminders for things requiring follow-up but not necessarily associated with a particular project.

    9. HR Noob*

      My best advice is to keep all your information in one place–one notebook, or your Outlook task bar, or one app. I have ADHD and write notes and lists to myself somewhat compulsively, and I always have to make sure they make it to the task management app I use (Asana, for the record, though I don’t necessarily recommend it) or else they get lost on my desk and I forget things. It’s not enough just to write things down; you have to put them someplace you will regularly check.

      1. Midge*

        I use Asana, too, and it’s been great for me so far. I make projects for my various ongoing job tasks, which I used to keep track of in a notebook. It’s helpful for me to have my notes and tasks in a searchable format. Once I send out an email relating to a task I also give the task a new deadline a few days to a week in the future to remind myself to follow up if there hasn’t been a reply.

    10. Jordi*

      I’m a fan of handwritten lists–not of the post-it variety, but full sheets of paper that I can cross things off, make multiple columns, and rearrange by making a new list as needed (every few days/every week). I like having everything in one place and easy to do.

      1. Lizzie*

        Yeah, I still hand-write it all. I usually either pin the lists to the bulletin board next to my desk (at work) or clip it into my planner (which is also made of paper, still!) if it’s something I need to take home.

    11. matcha123*

      I’ve stuck to writing things down. I, too, have a tablet, but I don’t normally take it to work with me and when I do have it, I don’t remember to look at certain apps.

      I stick a post-it on my desk with everything I need to finish that day/week. I add to it when needed and things that are going through a check get a check and when they come back to me, I cross them off the list.

    12. Anonicorn*

      I use Podio at work, which is similar to Trello and its basics are free for up to five users. You can access it online and it has an Apple app (though I haven’t used it). I will say it could probably seem a bit daunting to setup at first, but the customization is pretty awesome.

      For something more simplified, you could try Evernote. Also free. Also has phone apps.

      Another option might be Todoist. This might be best for you since it’s more akin to your post-it note to-do lists except they’re online. If you use Chrome, there’s a free extension for it and it integrates with your gmail. It may also be available in other browsers. Again, also free and available in an app.

      1. Rachael*

        Todoist is great! It allows you to keep subprojects for everything that you need and you can share with your colleagues and write comments. I have been using it for the last six months, as part of a GTD process and think its great. Also, read Getting Things Done. The main idea that I found most helpful was to write EVERYTHING down, even when you are waiting for a response, and so you don’t need to worry about it.

          1. Rachael*

            Sure! So this is a loose interpretation of GTD, but here goes! I have seperate projects for everything at work, and also projects for Agendas for standing meetings, Projects for staff who report to me, and keep track of either things I need to ask people about, things that my colleagues are working on for me, or action items that need to be done. For each project, I also have a waiting for project, with subprojects that list the name of the person and the item I am waiting for. I really like the whole Projects/ subprojects function, because it allows me to keep track of the never ending projects, but cross things off to see my progress!

        1. Aardvark*

          Seconding Todoist!
          I really like how you can set up recurring tasks–there are things I have to do every week, and I don’t have to constantly re-type them. I also like being able to set a website as a task (we use a web-based ticketing system), and have an Outlook extension so I can flag an email as a task. It has IFTTT integration, and I use that to keep a google spreadsheet of all my completed tasks for weekly check-ins with my boss and more detialed analysis (I pay for premium so I can see them, but this helps me break down the data better since their API and I are still doing battle…) I like that I can assign a date and a time to a task, as well as a priority.
          Also, I find the karma feature really motivating…

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I’ve been using Trello for about a year, and I love it. My list set-up, from left to right is: Incoming ( this is where I email tasks and move them to other categories later), Currently Doing, Most Important for Today, Today, This Week, Later, Waiting, Done, and Reference ( where I keep things I want to reuse, such as checklists, etc).

    13. CrazyCatLady*

      I’ve tried Evernote and other things but I really just end up going back to a notebook. The trick for me is to have one notebook that I ONLY use for a To-Do list. I usually take a few minutes at the end of each day to make a list for the following day. I also flag lots of things for follow up on a certain date/time in Outlook and use calendar reminders a lot.

      I usually have a small post-it kind of notebook to keep track of random things that come up during the day, but that’s all I can use it for, otherwise they end up getting disorganized, too.

      1. AVP*

        I have the same thing! For some reason hand writing out tasks and notes is what makes things stick in my mind. I have one notebook that is to-do lists on the right side of the page, leaving the left side blank for any phone numbers or things that I need to jot down quickly (those get put in their proper places immediately afterward). I also keep a second, smaller notebook for longer notes or project-based notes that I use left often.

        1. AVP*

          Oh, also, I’m a huge nerd and have a special green Muji pen that I use for writing and crossing out to-do items. Using a pen you love makes it exciting!

          1. afiendishthingy*

            I have an ultra-fine tip Sharpie pen and I draw little boxes next to each item so I can put a check mark in it when I’m done, stole that idea from a coworker and it’s way more satisfying than crossing something out!

    14. AnonPi*

      I’ve found the easiest thing is a notebook, and have a different page for immediate to-do and long term to-do. Then as I mark out stuff/run out of room, I start a new page. For stuff that has a hard deadline (x must be turned in by midnight on day y) or stuff that has a routine deadline (timesheets!) I set up either a task or appt in outlook, and add reminders. I’ve tried using Outlook for all my organization/to-do tracking, but for whatever reason I’m not as good doing that, and found writing stuff down in a notebook is easier for me. Admittedly there is a bit of satisfaction seeing work crossed off :) Also its small enough (little bigger than a 4×6) that I can take with me and add stuff during meetings and what-not.

    15. Anonamouse*

      If you are more of a paper person that needs to write items down, you could try the Day Designer (sample download is available to print out and try) or an Erin Condren planner. They have different layouts depending on how you mind works but don’t follow the typical planner layout.

      1. DG*

        I use an Erin Condren in conjunction with Outlook and it’s saved my life. A couple years ago I read Getting Things Done. I added a paper planner to my day-to-day routine for keeping track of next actions and things like that. It’s been life changing. I really can’t recommend it enough.

        And GTD is a super short read that really will help you get organized. I skim through it every 6 months or so to keep myself accountable to the system. I absolutely love it.

      2. Kelly O*

        I have to interject here. I really, REALLY dislike the Erin Condren planner.

        I got one in the fall, and it is just not working for me. It’s big and bulky, and I’m just not using it like I used other planners. I actually ordered a MomAgenda/MyAgenda at 50% off and am just going back to what works.

        The other thing with Erin Condren is that the cover bubbles up. I use my flat iron to push them down, but considering what you pay for them, I just really don’t think it’s worth it. It’s pretty, and I like the cover with my name on it, but it’s just not worth the money.

        Here endeth my rant on Erin Condren. I guess I just like to tell people my experience, because there are just so many gushing reviews, and I’m not feeling that exuberant love… especially at the price point.

        1. Al Lo*

          I just ordered a Plum Paper planner — similar to Erin Condren, but more customizable in some ways, less in others. Because I didn’t order in January, I was able to pick my start month; and because each one is custom made, I could pick the different elements — you can add up to 75 or so pages, so I added some direct sales planning sections (I sell Jamberry, and am planning to mostly use it for that, since I have my job and other stuff organized elsewhere), stickers, and some extra calendar months, but I could have added extra notebook pages, home planning, diet planning, teacher planning, etc. I could also choose from something like 5 different layouts for the weekly pages.

          I’m really hoping I can make the best use of it possible, but I was drawn to the other ways I could customize, even though it’s not quite as cute as an EC planner and doesn’t have as many accessories.

    16. KMC*

      I use a paper written list for daily items – this allows me to add to it throughout the day, and since it’s a notebook, I can refer back to it for resolutions, and also move things forward each day (or to the next week, etc).

      I put recurring items on my Outlook calendar, so I have weekly/monthly/yearly recurring items on there. This works for me for long term tasks, and I normally set up a reminder before they are due, so they can then move to my paper list.

      I also have another, smaller notebook that I leave my longterm open items with other people on, so that I can refer to it when needed, but it’s not cluttering up my daily list.

      And, I try to keep my email inbox in Outlook empty except for open items (this has been an issue lately, but it’s a good goal!) – once an item is done, it gets sorted into another folder, generally by name of project or name of person.

      lastly, some open items wind up arranged on my desk – I’m trying to move to a file folder system, but am afraid of out of sight/out of mind.

    17. Anon Accountant*

      I’m not very fancy. I use Excel with recurring due dates such as client name, requirements such as sales tax filings, due dates, and a checkbox for when completed. My spreadsheet has different tabs for immediate, recurring, long-term tasks.

      If it’s a very important task I’ll email myself about it and benchmarks. “Chocolate Teapots books completed through June 30th by Tuesday. 4th Quarter done by February 15th”.

    18. Natalie*

      Critical caveat in that I don’t have multi-step projects, but personally I find that an overly complicated organization system ends up being totally counterproductive for me. I spend too much time designing it and not enough time using it, or it requires too many steps and they get broken down. So I’m an old fashioned lists & alerts person.

      What helps with lists is that I have them broken out into sublists. I use the Reminders app on my phone (I know there are 3rd party ones, but I like the simplicity of reminders) with two shopping lists (“need immediately” and “get when on sale” and several different to-do lists. I have some tasks set to recur (for example, paying my bills every payday) and anything time sensitive gets alerts. I also reorganize my lists constantly, so the most critical things are on top.

      Occasionally when my to-do list gets too long and overwhelming, I move less important items to a B-Squad list.

    19. JB*

      I’ve known some people who were fond of workflowy, but I’ve never used it, so I have no personal insight on it.

    20. GeekChick603*

      I use Evernote because I can load it on my home computer, office computer, and smart phone. It syncs with all 3, so my lists are always up to date.

    21. HR Generalist*

      I keep a pile of scrap paper on my desk that’s clipped together like a note pad. I keep a running list on the front page and cross off things as I complete them. They are short and long-term items, there’s no real method for organization. As I come up with something I need to do (or someone gives me something) I put it on my list right away.
      I read the list regularly as part of my daily activities, making a point not to skim – to REALLY read and figure out what I can cross off. If the page starts getting full, I un-clip it, transfer all un-crossed things to the next page and continue on my way. I’ve tried other methods but this is the only tried and true one that has worked for me!

    22. LMW*

      I use outlook and my calendar for meetings, and sometimes I’ll schedule time for stuff that’s critical, so I get a pop up reminder.
      I also keep a written to-do list — I use a date book and write down goals for the day, checking them off as I go. If I need to flip a page and still haven’t finished a to-do, it gets moved to the next page. I also use a note-taking method where I star things that should be added to my to-do lists and take a few minutes at the end of each day to add those to the list. I imagine that this could be done using an electronic medium too — I’ve just found that handwriting works better for me personally.

    23. C Average*

      One other thing: I think there’s a common fallacy that if you just find the right tool, all you have to do is install it and you will magically be all organized and stuff.


      Once you settle on your tool(s) of choice, be prepared to watch tutorials, explore features and settings, Google reviews and how-tos, and peruse FAQs. Then set aside some time for implementation.

      Once I realized a key thing about myself–I wanted everything in ONE PLACE, and which place was kind of incidental–I went all-in on Outlook. I spent the better part of a long international flight exploring the nooks and crannies of Outlook and making myself into an Outlook ninja. It’s been one of the most useful things I’ve ever done.

    24. Anon369*

      Organization-related hijack – is there a way to store Excel and Word files in particular in the cloud, and update them there? I have been using Dropbox on my home and work computers, but I’m not comfortable with continuing to do so, since my company backs up everything on the computer and my files include things like medical records I want online access to (Dropbox stores your files on the computer and syncs them somehow). Day-to-day, I want access to my Excel to-do list both at home and at work. I Carbonite, but I don’t think I want to down/upload each day. Any way to do this?

      1. Lore*

        I think office 360 does this? But I also do something similar in google docs /sheets. They’re not as sophisticated as the ms versions so it wouldn’t work for, say, heavily tracked documents or spreadsheets with elaborate formulas. But for to do list sheets it’s totally fine.

    25. Grace*

      I use Basecamp at work for projects, and the team and clients are on there as well. However, Trello is really great for pretty in-depth internal task lists—I love it! I suppose you could connect with clients on there as well. I actually got my whole team to start using it in addition to Basecamp for project tasks, as it has many more dimensions to it than spreadsheets, and the @ comments/replies are great for quick and easy communication on tasks. I love that you can attach different file types as well.

      I’ve also used it for personal planning, like recipes, parties, etc. It’s a very versatile tool, and is also easy to use on your phone!

    26. Noah*

      Workboard is our newest tool at work and I love it. It was a little overwhelming at first, but once I figured it out it has been perfect for our organization. My favorite feature is designating people as “in the loop” and the multiple workstreams and teams. It is free, although there are some premium feature that my organization hasn’t used at all.

    27. Betty*

      Wow, you guys are awesome. I’m on Outlook all day long and, in addition to post-its, I like to use my inbox as a to-do list. I make sure my inbox doesn’t scroll – if I can scroll, I’m almost certain I’m behind on tasks. The problem is I’m doing the job of 3 people and I’m finding I can’t rely on my “no scroll” method anymore.

      I’m still reading through the responses but so far I think I’m going to try to fully utilize Outlook based on some of the comments here and I’m going to look into a large desktop calendar to write long terms tasks on.

      When I have some downtime, I might explore some of the apps mentioned here.

      THANK YOU!

    28. Purple Scissors*

      Our museum’s special events team just started using Redbooth at the start of the year and they are in love with it. It’s a little pricey, but great for long-term project management, you can assign tasks to people with deadlines and then integrate with your Outlook or Google calendar so that the tasks show up in the same place as all of their other appointments. There are also chat, calendaring, and file-sharing options I believe.

    29. Betty (the other Betty)*

      Hi other Betty,
      I keep track of a lot of projects. I just did a quick count: I have around 25 active projects going right now. That’s a little crazy but doable. A couple more and I might lose it! (I’m a freelance graphic designer.)

      I like Evernote. I have a projects notebook and each project gets a note named with the project name. I use that same project name on the project folder on my computer and for an email folder.

      Then I use Evernote tags to show status and priority for each note. I have tags for 1-First, 1-Now, 2-BOLO (Be on the Lookout; stuff that will be coming in soon), 2-Next, 3-Follow Up, 4-Waiting, 5-Inactive, 9-Done). The numbers let me sort the list with the most urgent jobs at the top. It’s easy to change the tag on a project note when the status changes. Evernote also has reminders so I can have it email me to remind me of future stuff.

      The tags were inspired by a website called The Secret Weapon (.org) which uses Evernote for the GTD Getting Things Done system. I think someone else mentioned Getting Things Done: it’s worth a read. The basic philosophy is get everything on a list so your brain doesn’t have to remember it all.

      For daily work, I put my projects on a computer calendar in a special “To Do” calendar. I look at my email and Evernote to see what needs doing, then add it to the calendar. If I have a project or task to do in the future, I put it on a future date. I try to block out the appropriate amount of time for each project task, but if I don’t it is easy to move the To Dos around. I just delete from the calendar when the project is done for the day (or move it to another day if needed.)

      Both Evernote and my calendar sync to my phone so I can check or add things on the go.

  2. Future Analyst*

    I need some advice—I am a new supervisor for a small division, and most of my reports do fine work. However, one consistently works very slowly, and the others are left to pick up his slack. I outlined a plan for his current project with deadlines based on his performance on good days, and sought input from HR, since I was told from the start that HR wants to make sure we’re not setting ourselves up for being sued. (I have no idea what I walked into, only that the division manager and this employee have not gotten along, and it appears I was hired to serve as a buffer between the two.) Instead of providing a different deadline or plan, HR told me not to give this individual any deadlines. I really don’t know how to forge ahead—I’m still measuring his productivity between batches, but my hands are tied in terms of addressing how his slow work is affecting our other employees. I don’t want to lose good workers because they (rightfully) feel as though they’re being treated unfairly.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      It sounds like there might be an ADA concern from HR. While they might not disclose the details, I would ask them if their concerns are ADA related, and ask that they provide you with guidance about ensuring the the essential components of the job can be done by this employee, because right now x, y, and z essential job functions are not being done.

      1. Spiky Plant*

        This makes a lot of sense. But yeah, “never give me a deadline” is not a reasonable accommodation in most organizations. If it’s not ADA related, then that person just needs to be managed!

    2. fposte*

      I’d get clarity from HR on just what the limits are and what has to be met. In other words, can you actually manage and even fire this person if necessary, and if so what guidelines do you need to observe to do so, or are they committed to non-action and you just have to deal?

      1. Celeste*

        Yes, this. It might help if he was given a lesser workload to begin with. That way the other, faster workers won’t have to take up the slack at the last minute. That to me is a bigger morale killer.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Did they tell you why you can’t give him deadlines? That would drive me up the wall! Even if, as another poster suggested, it might be an ADA issue — sure, I recognize that ADA requires that one make “reasonable accommodations,” but if your job is deadline-oriented, then it sounds like an unreasonable accommodation to me not to be able to assign any at all.

      Anyway, I’d kick this back to HR. “This position requires that we get X done in Y amount of time. Can you help me figure out how we can do that if I can’t ask Wakeen to adhere to the Y timeline?” This is one case where I think HR shouldn’t be able to give you a problem without proposing at least some kind of solution.

    4. Anonicorn*

      I currently work along side someone like your employee, and the absolute worst thing is having to take over a project at the very last minute, or whenever we realize the work won’t get done on time. From that perspective, I would rather be given the lion’s share of the work up front, that way I know what I have to do and I can budget my time.

    5. Anon Accountant*

      Will HR tell you why you can’t give him deadlines? Can he receive smaller projects or something where his work or lack of progress won’t hinder the others too much? I have no advice on morale though.

  3. C Average*

    Been waiting for this! I’ve got a doozie.

    A couple months ago I accepted a stretch assignment to write a long-form history of one of my company’s product lines for our company archives. Typically, such pieces are published in the internal-only archive website, where they remain available as an ongoing resource.

    I’ve worked on or around this product line for my entire time here (7+ years), which is true of very few people. I’m a card-carrying SME on the product line.

    I’ve put together a 12,000-word document based on my own recollections, interviews, and secondary sources. It’s been a lot of fun and I’m proud of what I’ve written.

    I sent out my draft to my interviewees and got mostly really good feedback. People had minor tweaks, but liked the piece overall.

    One of the interviewees forwarded the draft to someone else (let’s call him Zeus) in his department he thought would like to review it. He didn’t ask me first.

    I had actually tried repeatedly to get an interview with Zeus when I was working on the first draft, but he never responded to my emails. He knows who I am, so it wasn’t a cold-email situation. We’ve worked together before and know each other well enough to say hello in passing.

    So Zeus skimmed my draft and then emailed me to tell me he wanted to talk because he had some issues with my piece and felt that he could fill some gaps. I reached out to the archive team and asked whether we could push back the deadline to schedule an interview with Zeus, and they agreed.

    I met with Zeus, and it turns out he feels that the entire piece doesn’t focus enough on and is too negative about a couple of products that failed. He was heavily involved in these products and is insistent that they failed because they were “before their time,” and weren’t marketed effectively. (I disagree, and the piece reflects my thinking. I’ve used quotes from others who concur.) He hinted strongly that he would really like me to rewrite the whole piece.

    I then met with the company archive team, and they LOVE the piece and don’t want me to significantly change anything about it.

    I am leaning toward making sure that I weave in some quotes from Zeus and try to incorporate his viewpoint (which I’m sure represents many in his department), but I am unwilling to rewrite a piece I’m proud of, especially when the people who tasked me with writing it are happy with the draft I’ve given them and want to move forward.

    I’m meeting with Zeus for a second interview this afternoon. How shall I communicate to him that I plan to revise to ensure that his voice is included, but that a significant rewrite is not going to happen and I’m going to leave in place some content critical of his failed product line?

    (Also, if you’ve made it this far, can you think of anything I should ask him today that might lead to some good quotes and interesting content?)

    In the interest of full disclosure, he’s important and I need to have a decent working relationship with him. I don’t care much for him–I find him arrogant and kind of a blowhard. I don’t think he’s crazy about me, either. But we’re always cordial and I’d like that to continue.

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      I don’t have any advice I’m afraid but just good luck and please let us know how it goes.

    2. Iro*

      Zeus I appreciate your position here and want to incorporate your thoughts, however I want to be clear that we are way beyond the point of rewriting chapter 10. I was thinking that the best way to incorporate your viewpoints was with a [insert section]. Considering the constraints we have on this project, do you any additional ides for incorporating your viewpoint?

    3. Mary (in PA)*

      Ooof. A thought occurs to me – would he be able to write a dissent, almost like a Supreme Court ruling? That way your original document remains intact, but Zeus still gets to have his perspective represented.

      Other than that – good luck.

      1. C Average*

        Considering he didn’t even read my whole document ( . . . yeah), I can’t imagine he’s going to find time to write his own.

        That’s another reason this irks me–he basically said to me, “Yeah, I skimmed your document, and I have some thoughts.”

        Thanks, and good luck to you, too! It sounds like you have lots more to gripe about than I do.

        1. Mary (in PA)*

          He didn’t even read it? Ugh. I am with the posters downthread – they have good suggestions for you.

          And thank you for your good wishes. I love the commentariat on this blog; everyone is the best.

        2. Student*

          No no, that’s perfect. What you want is to make him felt respected and heard so that you continue to have a reasonable relationship. You don’t actually care about incorporating his specific information.

          Ask him to write up his perspective in a short (~5-10 pages? whatever makes sense) appendix. Give him a hard deadline, 1-2 weeks out. He’ll miss the deadline, but it’ll be his own fault instead of your fault for excluding him.

          1. themmases*

            I agree. When you’re doing the work of writing up someone’s contribution for them, you are the one doing them a favor. Give them a deadline to contribute and then don’t baby them about it.

            I used to run a research newsletter and this was what I did. Tons of people would ignore my emails asking what they’d accomplished lately, yet also had the personality type that would be offended to be left out and have the newsletter look like they did nothing. At the same time, there were others with the common sense to realize they shouldn’t need to be asked for this information and would just forward me good news as it came in. I would send out one, maybe two emails depending how long I could wait, name-dropping the department head who wanted it done and giving people a deadline to “get to” be included.

            1. Mallory Janis Ian*

              OMG this sounds just like how the faculty would react to our communications director’s requesting (nay, begging for) updates for the quarterly newsletter! No response to multiple attempts tho include them, followed by extreme umbrage at being left out.

      2. Karowen*

        I was thinking something along the lines of a dissent as well. Even if you don’t use the dissent phrasing, having that in your mind may make it more palatable to write.

    4. Dan*

      Do you need Zeus’s blessing? If not, don’t explicitly ask for it. Remember the old adage “it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission?” Work his feedback in there.

      Oh, and make sure your boss is in your corner and will got bat for you if necessary.

      1. C Average*

        Thanks, good call. I love that adage. I do not actually NEED anyone’s blessing, but given that I plan to spend the rest of my career at my current company, Zeus is a person who could help or hinder me in the future and I need to remain in his good graces.

        My boss is out of the country at the moment, but I know she would support me philosophically; however, she’d also expect me to fight my own battles.

        1. The white zone is for loading and unloading only.*

          I feel for you, I truly do.

          I think you might need to do some meta-thinking about the purpose of the document you’re composing. Please don’t take this wrong, but sometimes the company is less interested in truth and historical accuracy than they are in handing out warm fuzzies. Pragmatically, this works out to the question: are you sure your management will back your decision here?

          I think / hope that a total rewrite – especially when suggested by someone who hasn’t even given the piece a full read – should be relatively easy to fend off.

          The sections he’s unhappy with, I don’t really know what’s there or how it reads, but despite the fact that he ignored your earlier requests for input, I think that Zeus’s opinions on the umm “less than successful” products probably have some validity. If I was in your shoes, I might just bite the bullet and re-write those sections so that they’re factual in terms of sales and whatever numbers you’ve got, but they offer multiple interpretations of what was going on. “[someone] says the Mark 10 failed because they were stupid and ugly. But [Zeus], product manager of the Mark 10, offers a different perspective: “people were too stupid to know how to use the product …” etc etc etc.

          Again, though, I stress the importance of making sure your management has your 6 on this. Zeus has the potential to interfere with this project in a number of ways – for instance, you kindly ask him to review a draft and he never gets back to you, thus potentially causing delays. I understand that your manager expects you to solve your own problems, but this situation really sounds like a case where it’s important that you and your manager discuss and reach an explicit agreement.

          1. C Average*

            Thanks for the thorough and helpful response.

            To be clear, I am very interested in capturing his point of view and making sure it’s added! I’ve been planning to rewrite the sections that specifically deal with the product in question. I sought an interview with him repeatedly when I started the project, proceeded without it, and then asked for an extension to make room for his viewpoint because it’s valuable and will make the piece a better piece. Talking to him isn’t an exercise in appeasement.

            At the same time, when I balance his stated outlook (the piece needs to be rewritten to give the failed product more of a starring role and equal standing with several successful products to which I devoted more ink) with the outlook of everyone else who commented (the piece is great, and has a really readable narrative flow, and gives a true recounting of events), I think he’s asking for too much and that the only reasonable answer is no.

            When I send out the revised draft, it’s going to have the same general tone and structure, with rewrites of the specific sections that concerned him. And, because he only skimmed the first draft, I’m concerned that he may find those changes too subtle when I send them to him.

            I want to set clear expectations with him. I want him to understand that I value his viewpoint and I’m going to make space for it, because it adds to the depth of the story, but I am not going to rewrite the entire piece, and he’s also not going to have any kind of final editorial say-so.

            He’s someone I think is used to getting his way in all things.

            I don’t think I can consider my manager a factor here. She’s very hands-off in pretty much all things, and she doesn’t know the personalities or the politics involved. I am confident she wouldn’t oppose me, but I don’t think I could count on her to defend me, either.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      Oh my goodness. I feel your pain. I am quite familiar with the concept of too many damn cooks spoiling the broth, especially when one of them is an opinion you didn’t solicit in the first place!

      Have you talked to your manager about the issue? If I were your manager, I’d be very likely to tell you, “Well, everyone else loves it, so Blowhard can suck it up.” And then when you speak to Zeus, you butter him up and ask him all kinds of questions that make him feel included, but then if he asks you whether you’re going to completely rewrite the piece, you say, “Boss and I talked and we’re sticking with the general flow that’s there now — but I’m so glad you agreed to talk to me, because we can use your input today to make the piece even stronger.” (Basically, something that indicates you have the backing of another authority, followed by some honey.)

      Anyway, good luck. Opinions really are like a-holes (and unfortunately, it’s the a-holes who tend to be loudest about expressing their opinions).

      1. C Average*

        Good stuff–thank you! It’s been a struggle to even get my manager to read the piece and she’s been out of the country for nearly three weeks, so I’m probably on my own on this one.

        (She does really like the piece, so there’s that. She’s just not heavily invested in any of this, because it’s a stretch assignment and she’s been minimally involved.)

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          She may not be heavily invested in the piece, but she’s probably interested in not having it eat your time to the extent that she can’t have you do other things! In your shoes, I’d probably say to her, “Rewriting the piece the way he wants would take another X months, can you back me up on keeping it the way it is, especially since everyone else loves it?”

    6. Cristina in England*

      If he asks you outright, you could say something like “I really appreciated having your point of view on the product line since you worked on it for so long. I have incorporated some of your thoughts into that section to round it out. Thanks again.” If he pushes back, maybe add “I am happier presenting both points of view.” Good luck!

      1. C Average*

        Thank you, this is really nicely phrased and strikes the kind of tone I’m hoping to hit. Appreciate it!

    7. Gene*

      “Can you give me a couple of written edits for specific sections by end of day Wednesday so I can consider them?”

      BTW, SME?
      Society of Military Engineers?
      Sausage McMuffin with Egg?
      Special Minister of the Eucharist?


      1. Cristina in England*

        I love this. If he REALLY wants it to be rewritten, he can do the work himself and you can choose whether or not to incorporate it.

    8. Larry Scroggins*

      I used to be an internal auditor, and if there’s one thing auditors are experts at it’s negotiating with people that aren’t happy with something you’ve written.

      My first piece of advice would be to stick to your guns. If you don’t want to re-write the entire article and everyone except Zeus doesn’t want you to re-write the article, don’t. But, in the interests of making nice and maintaining a healthy relationship, come up with some compromises you can make on the parts that he’s bothered with. Read through those parts. Do they seem harsh to you, then figure out a way to soften the language. As much as I dislike passive voice in writing, it can really help to soften things by taking away the whole blame factor. You could include some of his quotes, or maybe not in quote form, to discuss how the pieces were marketed or point out how it somehow might have been too early for adoption and that something similar being done by Facebook/Boeing/Starbucks/Children’s Health/whatever is being accepted now. It might even result in someone taking another look at the project if it’s now been proven effective by someone else.

      Be as diplomatic as possible, especially if Zeus is someone you’re going to have to work with frequently. People are weirdly attached to the projects they work on, as you can see by how proud you are of the article you wrote. Zeus probably worked very hard on the projects, and was very disappointed when they didn’t succeed to the level he was hoping for or to to at least the level of his effort.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Think like a historian, which is sort of what you are doing. I would stress how you want to make sure that you talk about many aspects of the given thing. You can talk about how it is important to include as many people’s stories as possible, anyone writing a record would be concerned about these things. Of course, you are interested in accuracy and fairness, etc. This can lead in to a conversation about allotting a finite amount of space or hard set deadlines or whatever other constraints you are facing.

      Short formula- what he has to say is important to you. Add in constraints. Equals this is what you can do right now. And “Of course, I am most willing to do that and I will work on it immediately.”

      What I like about this is you totally escape the conversation about re-writing the thing. If pressed I would just say “I promise you I will do as much as I am able to do, but I cannot promise you an entire rewrite”.

      People are amazing. Sometimes just by the simple fact they feel that they have been heard, they will take a giant chill pill on their own and in the end just go along with what you are saying. Make sure he feels heard, maybe ask a couple questions to show that you are involved in this conversation with him.

      Good luck!

    10. puddin*

      Would it be feasible to work in some of his feedback now and then create a new archive doc that is more reflective of his opinion/style?

      I would also keep in mind the ‘prove it’ tactic that was mentioned here this week?last week? Ask him to being the process with by writing and submitting a draft to you. I know you said that was unlikely. But if he is that interested, would it be unreasonable to put the project as a new item in his to-do list rather than altering yours?

    11. C Average*

      Arrrgh, serenity now.

      Zeus and I were supposed to meet today for the second half of the interview, and he just bailed on me because he’s “so busy,” but can we reschedule for next week?

      After laying it on thick about how valuable his point of view is, I can’t very well say, “no, I must proceed without you.” But the man is singlehandedly destroying my ability to stay on deadline with this project.

      1. misspiggy*

        Accep the delayed meeting with him, but in the meantime revise the article and submit it. Send him the revised article, saying that unfortunately you couldn’t delay any further, but pointing out all the ways in which you’ve incorporated his point of view. (It actually sounds like you’ve done quite a substantial rewrite to bring in his perspective, so tell him that. No need to highlight that you haven’t done everything he wanted.) Then say you hope that in the meeting, you’d like to get any further insights from him to record so that if there is follow-up on the issue you can make sure the organisation is learning from his experience. He may well cancel the meeting and drop his objections once he realises you have actually taken his points on board.

  4. I am now a llama*

    Yay, getting in early!

    I’m looking to transition out of sales after 7 years. I love the customer/people interaction aspect but the high stress of sales is too much.

    Any suggestions for roles that use my experience without starting back at entry level? Also, should I mention in my cover letter why I am looking to transition?

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      I would imagine your personality and skills would be well-suited for something like campus recruiting, college admissions, or alumni/donor relations. (As you can see from my username, I have a higher ed lens on.)

    2. Kyrielle*

      Customer support, training, and in some companies project management roles all carry a lot of customer/people interaction.

      Beyond that observation, I’m not sure what to advise you. I do know that some of our absolute best at supporting customers are (unsurprisingly) best described as ‘a people person’ and really are able to convey to our customers how much they care about and are focused on resolving their issues.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        I don’t see sales and project management as having similar skill sets at all! At least where I work. Our project managers are highly skilled in “XX” (depends on the dept) and all have advanced degrees in their topic areas. For example, our PMs in one dept. all have engineering degrees. In my dept, they all have MBAs or urban planning grad degrees. Having people skills is important in sales, but not so much in project management. Tons of our PMs are socially awkward and it’s not a hindrance to their jobs, like it would be in sales. It just seems like apples and oranges to me.

        1. Kyrielle*

          Hence my “in some companies” – in one I’ve worked at extensively, project managers are managing customer install/deploy projects and are responsible for getting what they need from engineering (they do not manage the engineers, but have to talk to the engineering managers to get resources), training (ditto), etc., and also for interfacing with the client. It’s all schedules and people, people and schedules.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            I noticed that after I submitted, sorry. So the PMs at the place you mention don’t need specific degrees? That’s so interesting, I’ve only seen that in marketing before.

            1. Kyrielle*

              Nope! They also don’t direct development. They say “my client wants system X implemented with settings Y” (which were filled in by a trainer, using a standard document), and sometimes “and they’d like to know if we can add feature Z”. (Or several features.)

              That goes to an engineering group, and they respond with the appropriate software (for the first request) and a number of hours for any enhancements, as well as whether they’d be custom or baseline. The project manger then tells engineering whether they want any of the enhancements (which may have been promised to the client and will definitely be wanted, or may be something they will ask the client if they want to pay for first). At that point, engineering responds with a schedule. (And if the schedule doesn’t match their needs, the PM(s and their boss) get to figure out which of their prior requests can be done a bit later in order to squeeze these in faster.)

      2. Ebonarc*

        Backing up your point, in the telecom industry, there is a lot of moving between sales and project management, at least at the company I work for. Usually it’s project managers moving into sales (for more money), but there have been sales folks who’ve moved into project management as well.

    3. Helen*

      In addition to highered’s suggestions, you might be a good fit for development/fundraising.

      Also, what about account management? (or is that the same thing? I don’t know much about sales…)

      1. Celeste*

        I was just thinking fundraising. That is all about relationships and sales calls. Not everyone can do this; having done it in sales, you are ahead of somebody who has never done either.

      2. brownblack*

        I went into fundraising because I wanted to work in the arts. It never occurred to me that fundraising was essentially just sales. Thinking in those terms really helped me clarify my career goals.

      3. OOF*

        Fundraising, however, is high pressure and stressful. Most sophisticated shops have rigorous performance metrics. So beware if you’re looking for less stress – a high performing shop likely won’t give you that.

    4. E.R*

      It really depends what your other skills are. I’m personally working (long-term) on a transition from media sales to public relations, because I have strong writing skills and high-level corporate experience, and I think my experience in sales has has helped me develop a lot of relevant skills, like pitching, stakeholder engagement, communication etc.

      My colleagues who I’ve worked in sales with have moved into marketing roles, fundraising roles, business development and other roles in the industry they were selling in (since sales gives you a good understanding of how an industry works). What are you excited to do next?

      1. Rachael*

        I am actually looking to move into sales! Could you tell me why you want to leave? I don’t know anything about sales, but any information would be appreciated!

        1. E.R*

          What do you do now, Rachael? I actually like sales, but I’ve been doing it for long enough at 6 years. The upsides include good money, lots of opportunities to develop skills and grow, lots of challenges, flexibility, meeting lots of interesting people. But it can be stressful. I often feel like my bosses take me for granted when things are going well, and really harp on me when things aren’t going so well (but dont have any advice or support to offer) and that’s been pretty consistent across all my jobs. I’m getting tired of the stereotype that successful salespeople have some sort of magic powers, rather than just crediting plain old hard work and skills.

          Not all sales jobs are equal, as I’m sure you know. Definitely seek ones out that have a good training program (if you’ve never done it before), a living wage for a base salary, and in an industry you find at least peripherally interesting.

          Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble :) Good luck!

          1. I am now a llama*

            E.R, you definitely hit the nail on the head as to why I’m looking to transition out :)

        2. Pennalynn Lott*

          After over 15 years in software sales, I have gone back to school to get a degree in accounting. Many things have driven me out:

          (A) The “what-have-you-done-for-me-lately” syndrome, where you can close a $2.5M deal on Friday, and come into the office on Monday only to have your manager screaming at you because you haven’t met quota for the week/month/quarter.

          (B) Managers who can’t do anything to help you meet quota except scream at you because they either have never been in sales, or were in sales but don’t know how to manage or translate their innate knowledge into something teachable.

          (C) Kicking ass on quota for the year only to have it raised by 30% the next year, when I worked 60 hour weeks with no vacation just to kick ass the year before… which means now I’ll have to work 80 hour weeks just to meet this year’s quota.

          (D) The never-ending stream of cold-calling and networking and constantly talking your product and company up at every freaking opportunity, lest you not exceed your quota.

          (E) Meeting quota isn’t enough. You’ll eventually get PIP’d out of a job if that’s all you do.

          (F) Having to sell things the company can’t deliver on. Sure, we’ve got the software, but we don’t have any consultants available to implement it for another six months, at minimum. But close that deal or get fired. And then dance your way around the customer’s ire.

          (E) And to circle back to the first one, It Never Ends. There’s never a break; there’s never a lull; there’s never a pause for celebration that lasts more than a celebratory lunch. There aren’t extensions on your quota “deadline”; there’s no benevolent manager who understands that you crushed your ankle and need 12 weeks to heal; the quota drives everything.

          And similar to E.R., my experiences have been consistent across all software companies that I worked for.

          Mind you, there was a lot that I loved about sales, or I wouldn’t have done it for so long. It was great to work with a customer that had been struggling with kludgy software systems for years, and finally get them something that worked for their business model. The pay was fantastic. I made a lot of decent work friends, many of whom I’ve stayed in touch with over the years. I learned a lot and kept my brain engaged, because technology is ever-changing. But it wore me out and, I believe, made me sick eventually. I now hate talking on the phone to anyone about anything, hate networking and “mingling”, and hate promoting anything to strangers (even little things like getting neighbors to sign up for our neighborhood association). I used to love all that stuff.

          If there’s any way you can shadow someone in sales for a few days, just to get a feel for it, that might be helpful. Well, maybe. I remember it all looking so glamorous and exciting from the outside, before I got to really see how the sausage was made. :-)

    5. Chloe Silverado*

      At some companies, marketing and sales are very much intertwined. Maybe you could look for a marketing role where your sales background would be useful?

    6. Sunflower*

      Second that marketing and sales go hand in hand. Also maybe event planning or promotions? A lot of promotional events focus around educating a person about a product and selling them but it’s not your job to close the deal or hit certain numbers.

      Also someone mentioned fundraising down below but something related to that might be donor relations maybe? My friend technically works in fundraising for a hospital but her job is really to talk to donors and set up their fundraiser as opposed to find new donors.

    7. GeekChick603*

      Customer Success is the latest name for ‘continuously improving the customer experience’ initiatives. With your background in Sales, you have seen where the products fail to meet expectations of the clients and potentially where your processes fall down in keeping clients after they sign-on. It could be a good place to transition.

      You could use your sales experience as a catalyst for moving. “I’ve seen the issues some customers have with our product (or products in general) / process / system / etc. and I wanted to shift my focus from getting clients in the door to keeping the good clients we already have.”

      1. C Average*

        This goes under the moniker “member services” at my company, because we use the “member” terminology for people who set up accounts to shop online with us. So if this line of work interests you, I’d add “member” and “consumer” to your keyword searches.

      1. I am now a llama*

        Thanks, Apollo Warbucks! It’s insipired by the previous post and the alternate meaning to IANAL :)

    8. puddin*

      Last week I recommended purchasing to a reader looking to leave sales. Its like sales but in reverse :) Less pressure but maintaining the people interaction you want.

      I would not mention in the letter, but certainly you should be prepared to answer that question in the interview. I would highlight the skills that would transfer but the desire to transfer should wait til someone asks.

      1. I am now a llama*

        Hi Puddin! Your post is actually what inspired me to gather more suggestions in the next open thread.

      2. I am now a llama*

        Can you tell me more about that field? I guess I don’t know too much about it but… What is purchasing?

        1. puddin*

          Happy to help!

          Direct Buyer or Purchasing: You act as an agent for a company (usually a manufacturer) to obtain components or parts needed to build/manufacture an item. Sometimes the buyer will also buy parts to be used as ‘spare’ or service parts. You would be responsible for a set of parts or a ‘client list’ of suppliers that you develop a relationship with. Normally a purchaser ‘owns’ the relationship with the supplier. They cultivate terms and good business relations. In a healthy business this means a partnership with both entities…one of those win-win situations.

          Daily activities include:
          +Getting quotes for new parts or re quoting.
          +Performing market studies to see who has the best value/price combo.
          +Negotiating current pricing or purchasing terms like minimum order quantities or lead times.
          +Improving quality and delivery times of the items you are purchasing.
          Your performance can be based on metrics like item cost, inventory carrying costs, and supplier quality performance.

          Some purchasing requires product knowledge like clothing and other retail. For example, Kohl’s wants people who understand fashion trends, fabrics, and customer base in their purchasing. But many positions will not require product knowledge. You do not have to know about the items you are buying – what they do are how they are used – in many cases.

          Indirect purchasing is related to buying things like office equipment, facilities upgrades, services like cleaning or maintenance. I do not know a whole lot about that, but it is typically more financial in nature.

          1. puddin*

            Oh I forgot – usually one of the perks is that you get schmoozed by the sales people of the suppliers you manage. Its kind of fun to be the customer instead of the salesperson for a change :)

        2. Shell*

          Purchasing is dealing with the supply. You’d work with the sales team pretty closely, because you’d want to purchase products that your customers want to buy (or ideally you’d already have them in stock). Working with the sales team you might even do some inventory analysis to figure out what’s selling well, what’s not selling well, should we discontinue this product or not, should we have clearance sales if we discontinue it, if it’s selling well how much should I order for the next shipment to keep up with the sales team’s needs, etc. etc.

          There’s also a lot of dealing with vendors. You want to build up relationships with vendors, you want to figure out a lot of logistics (“so if shipment A comes in from Warehouse 1 in Idaho, and shipment B comes in from Warehouse 2 in Nevada, and I need something to give to the customer in four days, what magic combination of shipping speeds and priorities do I need to make it the cheapest overall package but still have everything on time?”). You will also probably be the one to decide to switch vendors if need be, or add new vendors to your roster, or source new products.

    9. Felicia*

      Member services for a professional association. I work at a professional association and have experience with others, and a lot of people who work in member services (which is like customer service, administrative and data entry, mixed in with some marketing) used to work in sales. It’s a sort of niche area and there aren’t really school programs in it so it could work for you maybe.

  5. Helen*

    You all might enjoy this–I have a phone interview with a temp agency Monday. To get to this stage I had to send them my resume, references, and fill out one of those online portals from hell.

    Yesterday, they sent me a paper application (in PDF form) saying I needed to fill it out by hand “IMMEDIATELY” and mail or scan it back. (*None* of the information asked for on the paper app is any different from what I’ve already given them.)

    They haven’t even told me if they have me in mind for any positions yet….

    1. Sadsack*

      Would it be terrible to write back to them asking why they need this form completed when you have already provided the information online?

    2. AnonPi*

      The nature of temp agencies, they will drive you mad with all the paperwork in triplicate you have to fill out, not to mention they often put you through a battery of skill tests…

    3. College student*

      They’re probably just getting information from you so that you can be in their system. Hence why I avoid staffing agencies. They act like they have a position for you, phone screen you, ask you to come in for an interview, ask you to do their online application, provide an updated resume and references, then tell you at the end of it all that they’ll contact you when there’s a position available.

    4. The Manager*

      I was sought out by a temp/staffing agency via LinkedIn. Went through their process and once they had secured me an interview, I was sent a four page document, that I needed to fill out “immediately” – but it was actually for the company that I would be ultimately working at.

      It was a lot of information to write by hand – not a task I enjoy at ALL. But I filled it out. Interviewed. I was hired on as a temp-to-perm role, and after 4 months, transitioned to that organization and into a HIGHER role than what I started out with.

      So, yeah, temp agencies are a pain in the butt, BUT, they have skills, they do know what they are doing…

  6. HAnon*

    Best languages for front-end developer to learn?

    Hi all, I’m trying to transition from being a full time graphic designer to the more web/digital side of things, and was wondering what are the best languages to learn? I am decent with HMTL and CSS, but not sure what my next steps should be to become a more competent developer. I’m interested in learning how to do design and develop for web, mobile, tablet, and possibly apps as well. I’m going to be investing some significant time and effort into whatever platform, so I want to make sure that I’m learning the most relevant languages that will make me competitive and current. Thanks!

    1. Barbara in Swampeast*

      PHP is a must and probably WordPress. There is lots happening in the WordPress area. There are frameworks like Genesis, Elegant Themes, Builder, etc. WordPress also allows customization of themes for people who don’t know how to code, but… it’s still helpful if you are familiar with CSS and PHP.

    2. Spiky Plant*

      I’m not a dev, but in a lot of roles I’ve seen in the web/digital space, SQL is super handy to know if you don’t know it already. Lots of content management systems have a database component, so being able to write queries and whatnot makes you much more of a power user of those systems.

    3. Sally*

      jQuery and/or javascript. Every single front end position is going to want you to know one of these. Codecademy’s online tutorials are a great place to start.

      1. Bun*

        Seconding this and Brett below. I’m a manager of front-end developers, and jQuery/javascript is essential to our work.

        Frameworks like LESS/SASS aren’t strictly development languages but will be very helpful to know and be familiar with. Learn about content management systems, too. Chances are anyplace you want to work will have one.

        Also, be sure you’re familiar with the basics of web servers, versioning, code repositories and the technical side of how web pages are created, stored and served up. A little knowledge in this area goes a long way to being a self-sufficient front-end developer.

    4. Brett*

      Javascript. Everything is moving towards HTML 5 with responsive design, and that means lots of Javascript/HTML. Php is still pretty popular; but while you can find plenty of projects that will not use php, you will not find many that are not using javascript.

      Thanks to Node.js, you can even use javascript for backend development too.

      Meanwhile, for app development it is going to still be Objective C (iOS) and Java (Android). A lot of backend development for apps is in python and C (or basically, python unless you need things to be really fast, then C).

      1. Thor Arthur 66DDZ*

        +1000 to what Brett said, but I can’t resist adding my own comments: HTML 5, CSS 3, and Javascript w/ jQuery are the heavy-hitters. For extra credit pick up some experience with the Javascript Dojo framework.

        You’ll want at least a passing familiarity with SQL for “traditional” relational DBs, plus it would be good to get to know Cloudant and redis. Yeah, these are all ‘back-end’ technologies, but you’ll want some passing familiarity with them.

        Android devices will require Java and iOS devices will require Objective C or possibly the new Swift language – at this point in time it’s impossible to tell if Swift will be a huge success or a failed experiment.

        You’ll want to know some stuff about XML and JSON.

        Back-end can be anything, but C, C++, Java, and Python tend to be the big ones. Node.js – which uses Javascript on the server side – has been gaining in popularity. But I don’t know if it will ever been the back-end of choice for serious Enterprise projects.

        You should learn and use Git. And I guess it goes without saying that you should learn to use the Xcode development environment and tools if you’re working in iOS, and Android Studio (or possibly Worklight if you prefer an eclipse-based environment). Worklight is supposedly moving to support native iOS and Android development, so it might be advantageous if you’re targeting an app at both iOS and Android.

    5. just laura*

      Not a dev but look at the job ads for companies you like/would like to work for– what is on their “must have” and “nice to have”? Go for those. :)

    6. LeisureSuitLarry*

      If you want to do anything in the web development world, you absolutely must learn JavaScript and jQuery. There are literally no relatively modern sites in the world that don’t use JavaScript and the last time I looked @53% of them have a jQuery component. Plus, JS is largely browser neutral, so it’s used in desktop, mobile, tablet and can also be used to write apps (both web apps and standalone apps). Really, if you want a job in the web dev scene, JavaScript is your ticket to success.

    7. Front End Dev*

      Hey! I’m a front end developer. In addition to HTML and CSS, jQuery is a must. Admittedly I’m not 100% versed in it, but I know enough that I can do the basics and figure out how to do the more advanced stuff by googling it. For an entry-level/early-career position, that’s all you really need.

      For responsive stuff, familiarize yourself with Bootstrap or a similar responsive framework.

      Learning the basics of WordPress and PHP would be a nice bonus, but not every company uses WordPress, and if you’re not using WordPress, you probably don’t need to know PHP as a front-end dev.

    8. Bexk*

      I’m a front end web designer….not a developer.

      I know HTML, CSS and enough JavaScript to debug. I haven’t used PHP at all, except for maybe once a few years ago. I am a mix of graphic designer and web designer, and social media has now become a new addition to my plate.

      Responsive design you want to take a look at various frameworks and learn media queries in CSS. I like Foundation, my boss has played around with Twitter Bootstrap. Both are ultimately media queries.

      Email marketing is another big part of what I do. I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE mailchimp, and made sure to become familiar with their platform (I love their culture, honestly.)

      Hope this helps!

    9. C Average*

      To build off of this conversation, for those of you who are self-taught in these skills, what tools and resources did you use to learn?

      I had to pick up basic html on very short notice a couple of years ago due to the phaseout of the WYSIWYG pane in our publication tool, and I’m proficient in the very basic basics, but I’d like to build on that.

  7. Jordi*

    One of my coworkers gave a powerpoint presentation to part of our department a couple days ago. I was scheduled to cover essential services and so I could not attend, but I found out afterwards that he included a picture of me he had pulled from facebook in the presentation. The picture was from a recent vacation and showed me and some friends, all in bikinis/bathing suits and covered in mud at the dead sea. Although I have a good work relationship with this coworker and we joke around sometimes, we are not friends on facebook–he used someone else’s account to access this photo without my knowledge. Even if he had asked ahead of time, there is no way I would have given permission for a photo of me in a bikini to be shown at work, and it is making me uncomfortable knowing that my coworkers saw this at work. Some have commented about it to me, and I think they all assume that I okayed the photo. I told my coworker that I thought it was inappropriate for him to have used this photo, but he didn’t offer any apology, just told me that everyone thought it was funny. I realize it is largely my own fault for having shared this photo on facebook, even if it was only visible to my friends, and it is a photo that I wouldn’t mind sharing myself with anybody in a casual setting, I just don’t want it displayed without my knowledge in a meeting at work. I really don’t know how to handle this, maybe I am overreacting, but I really feel like he crossed a line on this.

    For some additional context, he was giving a talk about breast cancer, and apparently came up with some sort of funny story to tie in my photo but I don’t know what the story was, and frankly I don’t think I want to.

    1. Kyrielle*

      I…I don’t have any advice, but you have my complete and utter sympathy. I would be tempted to complain to your boss since talking to him directly didn’t resolve it, but I’d also worry that would (further) sour the working relationship and some companies would possibly be “can’t you take a joke?” about it.

      1. Jordi*

        Thanks. I thought about talking to my boss but I know it wasn’t meant to be malicious and escalating things would probably make our whole work environment very awkward (moreso than it is right now).

        I’ve kind of been avoiding him since this happened so I think he gets how upset it made me.

        1. Jazzy Red*

          Wasn’t meant to be malicious? OK then, but he did state that it was meant to be “funny”. Talking about a coworkers breasts is completely inappropriate no matter what words he actually used (“So let’s all hope Jordi never loses her great boobs to this dreadful disease.)” Nah, that still doesn’t work for me.

          He needs a reprimand from his boss.

          1. Jordi*

            I got the sense that the tie-in wasn’t directly breast related, but more the health benefits of the dead sea. Still doesn’t make it any better.

          1. HR Generalist*


            You should not be uncomfortable for something he did to you, he should feel uncomfortable for crossing a line of appropriateness and not asking your permission to use your photo

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      That is beyond creepy and inappropriate. If he didn’t apologize, I’d talk to your manager about it! (And it is in no way your fault, the guy had to jump through a lot of hoops to access it, and even if something is available online does not make it sharing-at-work appropriate!)

    3. Sadsack*

      I’d be going straight to my manager and possibly HR with this. Your coworker needs some education.

    4. HigherEd Admin*

      I realize it is largely my own fault for having shared this photo on facebook

      I disagree with this premise. You shared it on a social network, for social purposes, to a limited audience. That doesn’t give someone outside that audience the right to take it without permission for a professional purpose. I’m sorry your coworker did this, and I agree that he crossed a line.

      1. Lo*

        seconding HigherEd Admin. I would definitely say you can change up some privacy settings (so people you are friends with with whom you work can only see some of your pictures? Maybe) but this person did something relatively disgusting, and kind of creepy. HR and boss, ASAP.

        1. Jordi*

          Thanks. I went ahead and deleted many of my photos from facebook altogether after this.

          I keep my privacy settings pretty tight and I honestly wouldn’t care about anybody (including him) seeing this photo if it were in the setting of “hey everybody, who wants to see my vacation photos”. I just want to be the one in control of sharing my photos.

      2. JMegan*

        Agreed. This is not okay, and just because you shared the photo with your friends, does not mean that someone who is not on your friends list (!) has permission to share it at work (!!) without asking you (!!!). Definitely escalate this to your manager, or his.

    5. Kelly L.*

      Eeek! Ick! No, this is not your fault for having it on facebook. That doesn’t make it OK for him to put it in his work presentation or to make what was probably a rude joke about it. >:(

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree. That is like saying it is your fault for going on vacation, or wearing a bikini.

        No, he used your personal photo without your permission. Compounding matters there was a questionable remark about breast cancer. No. Just NO for so many reasons.

        I get wanting to climb into a shell or something- but the opposite action is the route to go.

        Also have a chat with the friend that gave him access to the photo- if you can.

    6. sev*

      Wow. That was a really gross thing for him to do. And then for him to dismiss your totally legitimate complaint by saying everyone thought it was funny? Not OK. You’re not overreacting at all, but I bet he wants you to think you are. “Maybe I’m overreacting, better keep quiet” is how gross guys get away with being gross.

    7. fposte*

      Yeah, that’s way out of line, and it feels kind of stalkery given that he apparently couldn’t have gotten the image directly off of your Facebook. I’d chat with my manager, assuming a good relationship with her, to clarify my options. I also think guy is no longer a workplace friend whatever you do, given that he clearly doesn’t care that he upset you, so I wouldn’t prioritize keeping the friendship in my reaction.

    8. Katie the Fed*

      You are not overreacting. That’s insanely inappropriate and creepy. Even worse that he doesn’t seem to grasp how creepy and inappropriate it was.

      You’ve tried to talk to him. At this point I would elevate the complaint to your boss, his boss, HR, wherever. He’s a creep and has no sense of professional conduct. I would fire someone for a lack of judgement that severe.

      1. Adam*

        Agreed. OP is NOT overreacting. I’m a dude who’s pretty laissez faire and my eyes went wide when I read the post. Since addressing it with your coworker didn’t help I’d bring it up with your supervisor. Absolutely nothing about what he did is ok.

        1. The Othe Katie*

          I agree with Katie the Fed and Adam. This is insanely creepy. This needs to get escalated to your boss and possibly HR. You were not wrong for having it on Facebook and you are not over-reacting.

    9. AdAgencyChick*

      I’m a big proponent of “don’t put anything on Facebook you wouldn’t want the whole world seeing” — but I think of that in terms of “people may see something if they’re poking around,” not “someone may grab your clearly personal photo and drop it into a professional context”!

      It’s not your fault. He’s a jerk. I’d go to your boss and say that you’re upset that this happened, you approached him and you got no apology. (Seriously? He just told you “everyone thought it was funny”?) And you would like such things not to happen again. If your manager is worth her salt, she’ll have your back here.

    10. Mike C.*

      First of all, this isn’t “largely your fault” just because you posted it online. This is completely the fault of your creepy, stalkerish coworker. I would be livid.

    11. Anna*

      I can’t think of a single funny story about breast cancer that would be even remotely linked to a group of women in bikinis. Other than that, no it’s not your fault for this guy’s boorish behavior. AdAgencyChick is right; this is not what is meant by “the whole world seeing” something you post on social media.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, what is up with the “funny story about breast cancer”? This is a person with no filters, I mean that in an extreme way. He sounds like someone who just does whatever he feels like.

    12. Jordi*

      Thanks to everybody.
      I’m glad I’m not overreacting. I was just so stunned that he would think it was okay. And also, there was a supervisor at this presentation (though not my/his manager), and she must have thought it was funny as well, or at least she didn’t react to it being inappropriate.

      1. Snowglobe*

        But the supervisor most likely thought that you agreed to having your photo used. I’d say something to your supervisor, to let her know how he got that photo and that he didn’t apologize when you told him that he shouldn’t have done it.

        1. Jordi*

          I noticed that everyone is assuming my manager is a women, but he is a man. Which shouldn’t make a difference, especially since he is generally great and approachable, but I would almost feel better going to the supervisor (woman) who was at the meeting. At least she is already familiar with the photo and knows in what context it was discussed.

          1. fposte*

            We default to “she” when gender isn’t identified here; it wasn’t about assumptions.

            I’d still go to your manager first. If it were my employee, I’d want to be in the loop on any subsequent actions.

          2. Observer*

            No, don’t go the supervisor who was there. She is not your supervisor, nor his, so this is not her issue to deal with. Go to your supervisor and his supervisor / hr.

    13. Artemesia*

      This is pretty much a textbook example of sexist and inappropriate. If it were random women from stock photo, it would be inappropriate. (just as a doctor who includes playboy shots in a lecture on anatomy is sexist and inappropriate — and this was commonplace 30 years ago) The fact that it is a work colleague without her permission increases the inappropriateness by a factor of ten. This is demeaning, objectifies you, and inserts ‘sexy’ into a talk where it is not appropriate.

      The fact that he wasn’t mortified would cause me to escalate this. This guy needs some training before he gets the company into trouble for his lack of judgment.

      1. Jordi*

        The photo was me, one other women, and three men. And I don’t think he directly mentioned breasts in relation to the photo, but I’m sure it popped into the minds of more than one person in the audience given breast cancer was the topic of the talk.

      2. Jordi*

        Although I agree, still hugely inappropriate which is why I am still upset over this a couple days later.

    14. Beezus*

      You’ve gotten a lot of great advice on dealing with your coworker, so I’m not going to add to the pile, but have you any idea which of your friends assisted him in getting a copy of this photo? Do you know how that came about? In your shoes I would really want to know how that photo was shared, and I would have a serious problem with a friend who knowingly provided access to it for the purpose it was used for.

      1. Jordi*

        It was another coworker who I am friends with and occasionally (but not regularly) talk to outside of work, but he is really close with, has known for years, and spends a lot of time with away from work. I don’t know if she knew that he used her facebook to get the photo before the fact or not–I wouldn’t be surprised if he sometimes has access to her personal computer without her being there.

        1. Natalie*

          Alternatively, in privacy settings one of the optional levels is “Friends of friends”. If you have that set on your photos (or if it’s automatic?) he wouldn’t need to get onto her computer.

        2. Observer*

          No, don’t go the supervisor who was there. She is not your supervisor, nor his, so this is not her issue to deal with. Go to your supervisor and his supervisor / hr.

          1. Observer*

            That was an accidental double post.

            What I meant to say HERE is that if he used her account without her knowing it, you REALLY need to escalate it. Even if the use of the photo was appropriate (which is was NOT), using someone else’s accounts behind their back is just utterly out of line and, as I said elsewhere, asking for trouble.

    15. A Teacher*

      No. Just no. What he did was way out of line. Please don’t blame yourself for having a personal life and posting pictures to facebook–its not like you were doing something highly illegal. What a jerk.

    16. another IT manager*

      Whose account did he use to get this picture, and did they know that he was doing it? If they did, I’d probably take them out of the “vacation photos” group. If they didn’t, WTH?

    17. Observer*

      How utterly inappropriate. I think that both your boss and his need to know about the background. You need to make sure your boss knows that you did NOT ok the use of the picture – There are too many possible unfortunate conclusions your boss could draw from this.

      Your co-worker showed appallingly bad judgement – stuff that could potentially get the company in hot water. He used someone else’s Facebook account to essentially snoop on you. And then he put an identifiable work inappropriate picture of you in everyone’s faces – while making it look like you were ok with it. I can’t imagine how a stupid stunt like that would play out if someone decided to go after him for harassment or the like. But I’m sure it would not go well for him or the company.

    18. Observer*

      If someone shared their account information with him, then you need to unfriend that person. And, if he figured out someone else’s password and used it without permission, his boss / HR need to know that.

    19. Grace*

      This is appalling! The fact that he went out of his way not only to get the photo, but to get it in a way without alerting you to it or asking you for it, means that he obviously knew you would be uncomfortable with it. If he thought it would be okay with you, then why wouldn’t he have asked?

      Not to mention that the whole thing is just a completely inappropriate crossing of boundaries, and a really creepy invasion of privacy. It would be even if you weren’t in a bikini, but that just makes it so much worse! I think that this could even be classified as sexual harassment, (however, I wouldn’t mention that term).

      You should definitely go to your boss. This is unacceptable. What if he thinks he can get away with this type of behavior, and does something else inappropriate?

    20. Lizzy*

      Because there are people who think anything put on social media is fair game, I will throw this angle out there: a person should always ask another person if it is okay to be the topic of a presentation. It doesn’t matter if he pulled a picture of you from LinkedIn or the company website; he should have cleared with you first. Just the thought of being the topic of someone’s presentation–especially someone that isn’t a very good friend–is making me stabby.

      The fact that he went out of his way to do this ups the creepy factor. You are definitely not overreacting.

    21. Unmitigated Gal*

      I would absolutely tell my manager. If he is only doing this sort of thing to women, it could be sexual harassment. Even if it isn’t, it is completely out of line and unprofessional. He should be spoken to by leadership.

    22. beckythetechie*

      Since the privacy violation happened on Facebook, I’d put it on Facebook too. “It’s come to my attention that someone I thought I could trust was willing to share a private photo for a third party to use in a public situation without my permission. The person who used it sees nothing wrong with this, but I do. So, if you no longer see updates and photos from me on here, it’s because I apparently need to be more careful about who feels entitled to use my social life for his or her personal gain.”

  8. kozinskey*

    I have a Word document on my desktop listing in outline form the things I need to get done that I check each morning. I organize it by deadline with the most important things at the top and most new stuff at the bottom. It’s not a perfect system but it helps me stay focused and keep from forgetting about things I need to do.

    1. Adam*

      I do the same thing, but mine is in a text doc. Also I set a daily reminder in my outlook to tell me to check it by 8:00 a.m. when my day usually starts.

  9. Sunflower*

    Hoping for some advice talking to someone interested in my industry? I’m not sure if this is imposter syndrome rearing it’s ugly head

    I’ve been working in event planning for 2 years(graduated 4 years ago). I have a good friend who is in fashion as a buyer(she’s been out of college for 12 years) who is doing well for herself but tired of the industry and looking to make a career change. She wants to sit down and talk to me about my job- what I do, if I like it, etc. I really want to help but feel somewhat like I have nothing to give? I think I’m feeling this way since she is tapping me for advice yet is so much further along in her career. Beyond knowing that it’s common to go from fashion to event planning, I don’t actually know how people do this.

    I’d also like to help her out because in addition to being an all around great person, she has a great network. Any advice? Facts I should definitely include about my career/job? I’m used to being on the other side of this so any tips would be great!

    1. HigherEd Admin*

      Just keep in mind that while she may have 12 years of experience, it’s not in your area of expertise. She’s coming to you for advice because you honestly have more experience and insight in event planning than she does. I would let her lead the conversation, ask the questions she wants to know, and answer as honestly and fully as you can. If you see areas of overlap or skills that transfer, tell her about those; those will be the most helpful in her job search.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Tell stories. Talk about getting your first job, the interview, etc. Tell her about what types of projects you have done so far. Talk about problems you have been expected to solve.

      If she is as smart as you say, she will have good questions lined up for you. She might ask if you know anyone who would talk to her that might have more to add. But never underestimate the power of stories. People learn a lot through stories.

    3. girlonfire*

      I agree with HigherEd Admin — own the knowledge you have spent two years accruing! Think about your daily work: what hours are you putting in? what does a typical day look like? what skills would someone need to be successful at your job? what do you honestly like/dislike?

    4. NatalieR*

      I’d get into what a typical week/month/event cycle is like in terms of tasks involved, typical issues, the varying types of events you do, etc.

      I’ve been events my whole career (almost 15 years, eep) and worked on long-cycling events (annual fundraisers, festivals, conferences, etc.) and very short cycling events (catering sales and small meeting planning). Though the core skills are the same, the day to day work is totally different. I also think the level of reward is quite different. I like to work on longer and more intricate events like professional conferences and festivals more, as I find them to be more satisfying. The difference in event types isn’t always something people moving into the work think about.

      Also, there are event jobs that are design-heavy and others that are logistics heavy. That’s something to mention that she should look for, depending on her skills and interests.

      Also, there are internal event planning jobs for companies/universities, fundraising events, catering events, hotel event planning, festival jobs, wedding planners, private planners for other types of events … they run the gamut. I have no idea what sort of planning you do, but I’d mention that there are opportunities across many organizations and industries.

      Also, it’s easier to get into event planning from another career if you take a position that takes from your old profession with events peppered in. For example, since she’s a fashion buyer, she might look for jobs that involve planning fashion shows or fashion/merchandise marts, so she’ll know the players involved and expectations.

      Wow – this was a lot. A final recommendation (for you too) is to look on LinkedIn for a group called “Career Advice for Event Professionals” (or something similar). It’s really active, and there is a ton of great advice and wisdom in their threads.

      1. Sunflower*

        Wow thanks for all that great info! I am also looking to make a slight career change- I want to get more into more long-term, project management based events. Right now my events are short-term and there isn’t much design work- it’s purely logistics so this is great info for me as well!

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        Former event planner here and I second all of this. Like one of Natalie’s examples, I kind of ended up in event planning accidentally (had a job where it was a peripheral part of the role and when I was looking for my next job, ended up in a job focused on event planning due to the previous experience)

        I had a couple of these types of conversations when I was in my event planning job, and I think what stood out to me was that the people I spoke with didn’t have a great grasp of what event planners actually do. Your friend may have a better idea if she’s involved at all in events in her current role, but I tried to make it really clear what the job actually entails and what your typical work week/month will look like. Granted, a lot of the people I was speaking with were younger, but I think to some people event planning sounds like an awesome job with no downside, when it’s actually pretty difficult and definitely not for everybody.

        I’ll also echo some of the other advice above that she’s coming to you so you can share your experience, as it’s something she’s less knowledgeable about than you are, so try to let the nervousness go!

  10. Mimmy*

    A bit of a cautionary tale for job seekers and HR reps:

    This morning, the HR department of a major hospital near us called to return someone’s call. My husband answered, told them he didn’t call, then asked me if I’d called. I didn’t call either. So they obviously had the wrong number. Either the original caller didn’t clearly give their number, or the message taker didn’t write the number down correctly. I sure hope they get in touch with the person who’d originally called!

    Just goes to show that it’s so important, when job seeking or recruiting, that you give / receive information very carefully!! :)

    1. Rebecca*

      I remember I got a message on my answering machine at home from a college out West. They were leaving a message for someone, not me, for a graduate program, and asked that this person call them back immediately as spots were limited. I called them back, gave them my phone#, time of call, and who called, and asked them to please call the right person. I was very concerned that someone could miss out on an opportunity because someone probably misdialed an area code.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        My mother once got a voicemail from a local high school talking about work experience placements. Since our number was very similar to a local dental surgery, she called them first, but they said they weren’t taking anyone on. Then she called the school, but without a name of who they were trying to reach, the school had no idea what she was on about. So someone may have lost a work experience placement.

      1. Mimmy*

        Since my husband had to ask if I’d called this HR department, it doesn’t sound like the person calling specified who they were looking for. Good point.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My home phone number is one digit off from the phone number for a town court that is several towns over from me.

      I get messages on my answering machine, “Hi, Judge, this Bob Scofflaw, I am going to miss court tonight, okay?”.

      It’s okay by me, Bob.

      I state my phone number in my greeting. Sigh.

      1. The Othe Katie*

        When I was growing up, my dad’s business was listed in the yellow pages right under the number for the local mental hospital. Even though his answering machine message clearly stated the business name, we would get some REALLY strange messages.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I’m one digit different from Child Support Enforcement. I had to put their number on my answerphone message because people would leave messages with their case number and “Call me back.” One woman left her Social Security number. 0_0 I did call her back and told her not to do that any more.

      3. Ama*

        My first job in academia our department extension was one digit off from the Bursar’s. The week tuition bills went out was never a particularly pleasant time to be answering the phone.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      But again, this is why you follow up a call with an email. This way you know you’ve covered your bases with contacting someone.

    4. Sabrina*

      I once missed out on a job because my brother took a message on a paper plate, which he didn’t tell me about, and then threw the plate away. And then I bought a pager. Like you did in 1997.

    5. sittingduck*

      Ugh. I had this problem! My phone number is from my home-state, its the only number I’ve ever had and I didn’t want to change it when I moved to a neighboring state. Well my new state only has 1 area code. Even in today’s dynamic world, a lot of people who are dialing from a land-line will just omit the area-code when dialing a phone number – therefore when people were trying to call me, they instead got a lady in another part of my state that has my number with the state area code.
      I only figured this out when someone who had tried to call me emailed me to let me know they were getting someone else when trying to call. Together we figured out that apparently people were just glancing over my phone number on my resume an completely ignoring the fact that the area code was not that of the state I live in.
      I ended up doing two things:
      1. I got a Google voice number with the correct area code for the state, and started putting that on my resume
      2. I called the lady who was getting my phone calls and explained the situation to her and asked her to let me know if anyone else called. I never heard from her.

      So hiring mangers apparently just don’t look at complete phone numbers sometimes. I have a great job now and am not applying for jobs anymore, so its not an issue. But it was a pain! I have no idea what calls I might have missed because of this.

  11. Labratnomore*

    I have a question regarding a cover letter. A couple years ago I applied and received an offer at a company. The job was a lateral move, but the offered pay and benefits were less than what I made then so I did not accept the offer. Now there is a job I am interested and am wondering how to wright the cover letter. This job is to replace the person who would have been my boss had I accepted the other position, which is still a step up from my current position. During the previous discussions, when I said I was not comfortable with the offer the HR person said that she saw me more on an equal level to the hiring manager and thought I would be promoted quickly. I just brushed it off as trying to sell me on the job, though I do believe I was qualified for that job then. The HR person and the former hiring manager have left the company, and the person formerly one up from the hiring manager is now in a different department. Long story, but the question is how do I write the cover letter, considering I turned down an offer there before and none of my former contacts in the company are involved in this hire?

    1. TOC*

      If everyone who was involved in the process last time isn’t going to be involved this time, I don’t see any point in wasting space in your cover letter to acknowledge that you received an offer from them once a few years ago. Focus on the current position and why you’re great for it.

      Also, don’t feel so apologetic about having turned them down, years ago, for a different position. That’s a normal thing to do, and companies (at least most of them) know better than to take that personally. If it comes up during your interview process, just say, “Yes, I did receive an offer from your company a few years ago. I was, and am, really interested in working for you, but that position just didn’t turn out to be the right role at the right time for me. However, when I saw this opening come up I jumped at the chance to apply with this company again. This role is definitely what I’m looking for because of…”

  12. Colette*

    I was notified yesterday that I’m being laid off at the end of the month. I’m fine, but I’ve spent the morning comforting people. I’ve been laid off before, but this is the first time I’ve had a transition period – previously, I wasn’t expected to work after being notified. I like being able to transition things, and it’s good to be able to say goodbye, but it’s a bit of a struggle to get my head together today.

    1. Celeste*

      My suggestion is to leave early today if there is any way that you can. Take the weekend to regroup.

      I totally feel for your situation.

      1. Colette*

        I left early yesterday, but today my issue is that I have tons of things to do. (Start goodbye email, figure out who to transition X to, update resume, register with outplacement service, ….) Those things are almost all easier at work.

        I think my issue is that I have too many things that I want to do. I should make a list to help me focus.

    2. Cautionary tail*

      I hope you have a supportive network. When I was laid off I was a good friend of the HR VP so he thought he did the right thing by being able to keep me on for 3 additional months. My boss on the other hand was a backstabbing slimeball (a near universal assessment) and he made those three months pure hell for me.

      So I wish you well with the transition period and your future and hope all works out for you.

    3. fposte*

      Uch, Colette. I hate that situation where you have to manage everybody else’s distress about what’s happening to you.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        People do this with sick people as well. Hey, um, can we get back to MY feelings?

        Sorry you’re dealing with this. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “I don’t really feel like talking about it today, but thanks for your concern”

        1. Ama*

          The “comfort in, dump out” ring theory is a really great concept I wish more people would use. I first heard about it in the context of serious illness (link in reply), but it applies to SO many things.

          1. Kelly L.*

            I think if I’d really figured this out during a previous long-term relationship, it might well have saved it.

        2. Colette*

          Yes, I’ll use that if necessary, but right now I’m really just trying to restrain myself from saying things like “yeah, I don’t know what you’ll do, either” or “glad that’s not my problem anymore”.

          I’m sure I will reach a point where this is upsetting to me, but I’m not there right now.

      2. Colette*

        The hard part for me is that this is good for me. I would have preferred to move to another job within the company, but I was ready for a change. (Also, all the parts of my job that I don’t like, I no longer have to do.) And when people are upset and trying to sympathize, being too happy is … not really the right approach.

    4. Mimmy*

      I was one laid off to with a month’s notice, but I was the only one! And it was on a Monday! I know there’s no set rule on what day to let someone go, but at least you get the weekend to process this in private. Best of luck to you going forward.

    5. Sunflower*

      Ugh so sorry. I agree to try to take the rest of the day or take the weekend off to just kind of relax. good luck

    6. Rebecca*

      Oh, I can relate! I also had a month’s transition period and to be honest, it was annoying to spend a whole month being like, “Yeah, it sucks. No, I don’t know what I’m going to do” Especially the first couple of weeks, it was only a few of us getting let go and I had never been laid off or fired before so I was a little bit of a wreck in private. But the good part was that I had a head start on job hunting and had an offer from another company within two weeks. And like you, I wasn’t particularly happy at that job so I was actually relieved to be able to move on.

      Good luck! Like others have suggested, take the weekend to re-group, then start reaching out in your network to let them know you’re looking.

  13. OriginalEmma*

    I started a new, permanent government position late last year, moved to a new state for said job, and am starting to really get comfortable with my responsibilities. I’ve been here less than 3 months, at this point. It’s the same role as that which I did as a fellow years ago, but with the proclivities inherent in working at a different field office as well as adapting/adopting any new protocols developed during my absence. I legitimately feel good right now – about my job, my life…pretty much everything. Yayyyy!

  14. Ayeaye*

    I have a new job I was very happy about. Except! It involves lots of behaviour management of quite feisty 16-18 year olds in a library. I was interviewed in a lovely place, but then they switched me elsewhere so I’m now having to unexpectedly deal with this. When I ask about level of noise tolerated, I’m told “use your judgment” – but I’m getting the impression my tolerance is significantly higher than theirs. I am fairly relaxed about “rules” in the library, I think this place is more old fashioned than the campus I originally interviewed for. I can imagine really enjoying the job if it weren’t for this aspect – I pretty much have panic attacks when I am supposed to be “monitoring” the library because I just have no idea what my expectations should be, or how to enforce anything when half the time I don’t agree with the rules so when they argue back I struggle to not just say “well, yes, fair point! Carry on.” I am also short and young looking so feel totally lacking in authority, besides which it just isn’t my style – I like to talk to them as though they’re actual humans and develop rapport! But that’s not what is expected there from what I gather. I’ve tried asking for feedback but get vague “use your judgment” and when I ask for clarification of rules, it’s about consistency and so on, which I understand, but still don’t agree with… I don’t have the most welcoming colleagues. It’s genuinely massively impacting on me in weird ways. I had a pretty much total breakdown about this on Sunday – I am not very good at feeling incompetent at work. I’m going to buy “Authority Clothes” (not sure what this means yet, shoulder pads?) to try and boost my sense of Being In Charge. It just wasn’t expected in the role that I would have such a position so I’m totally thrown by it. This is rambling and incoherent, I just need some sort of solution before I really do drive myself totally around the bend. Does anyone have any ideas of how to either get better at this, or how to get through feeling like this about being bad at it? Or how to get uncommunicative colleagues to be more supportive? (Directly asking doesn’t work, nor does hinting).

    1. fposte*

      “I am also short and young looking so feel totally lacking in authority”–I know tons of short and young-looking librarians who have a roomful of teens cowering when they speak, and tall old people who kids run riot with. Sure, appearances may be initially what people read, but it’s quickly about more than that, so I think you’re getting overfocused on appearance when it’s your experience that’s really the obstacle here. There’s also nothing about following rules that makes people less than actual humans :-).

      So–you either need to have library guidelines, need to have clearer library guidelines, need to change library guidelines, need to decide what your guidelines are if you’ve decided to deviate from the library guidelines, or need to follow library guidelines. If you’re on point in a library, you’re almost certainly going to need to know how to redirect noise, kick people out, etc.–that’s pretty SOP for just about any patron group. Maybe the existing librarians are not teen-friendly, it’s true–but also, maybe they’re making too much noise and the teens want a space to work quietly don’t have one.

      Your spelling puts you out of the US, but I’m not sure how far out–there’s a ton of writing, workshops, etc., about this in US librarianship (maybe an actual YA librarian will weigh in). I Googled “YA librarians teen behavior issues” and found quite a lot to start with–I suggest you drill down into that topic and find some work to draw in, since I think part of your anxiety is that you’re trying to reinvent the wheel when there are whole tire shops out there. (And if you’re looking for a starting textbook, go for Connecting Young Adults and Libraries, originally by Patrick Jones and now multiple editions along.)

    2. Crabtree*

      I have been there. As a student librarian I worked in the Children’s/Teen department of a public library and it can be hard to figure out noise levels. Later I worked at a much smaller public library so I was managing everyone’s expectations. My rule of thumb when kids/teens argue back is to say ” I know that (what you are doing) doesn’t seem like a big deal, but if everyone was doing this, then the space would be too loud/too wild/unsafe for other patrons. ” Even if you don’t totally agree with the rules you are forced to follow , it’s a good stance to take. Work on seeming strict but fair, which means going along with the rules all the time. People always remember if they got away with something in the past so it actually makes things worse if you let it happen most of the time and then are just strict when the library is really full. Stay calm, serious and even voiced throughout all those discussions. I like half-smiling during the first interaction, and then my face became more neutral if it continued after the first discussion. I have in the past kicked people out for not following the rules. If you have to do that then do ask for back up from a colleague and see if they can stand beside you while you tell them they have to leave. The more practice you get, the better you’ll be.

      For authority clothes in the library I go for washable blazers (it can be colorful if you are working somewhere more casual) or cardigans. Being a little more business-y can help add authority. I always wore machine-washable business casual pants that had quite a bit of stretch so I could get down on my hands and knees when work required it. If that never happens to you (and you’re a lady) I might suggest pencil skirts. My colleagues were always really supportive but depending on patrons who were more complain-y on certain days, the rules sometimes changed.

      Be patient with yourself. Young adults are great, but they can be exhausting.

    3. Lt. Short Stuff*

      I’m a short, fairly young (27) female volunteer firefighter who was promoted to Lieutenant about a year ago. I was pretty confident about my general competence up until that point, but then suddenly I was placed in charge of 6-8 ego-and-testosterone-driven young (teens and 20s) volunteer firefighters and EMTs. All of whom were taller than me. When I need to give orders and I face any kind of resistance, I think about the short-but-scary people that I know, fictional and otherwise, and try to channel that energy and confidence. Do you know anyone, particularly women, who are tiny but seem to radiate authority? Even if you don’t, I’m sure you know of the general trope of the 5-foot-tall angry drill sergeant, or Napoleon, or whatnot. Work towards emulating that. Fake it till you make it, basically.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        LOL, I love your name. I recently read that Napoleon was 5’6″. I was so surprised – I always thought he was much shorter than that.

        1. Lt. Short Stuff*

          Several history nerds have corrected me on that (apparently common) misconception, but it holds up well as an example of this trope, so I won’t stop using it. Sorry, Napoleon!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “…. how to enforce anything when half the time I don’t agree with the rules so when they argue back I struggle to not just say ‘well, yes, fair point! Carry on.’ ”

      I hate when I have to enforce rules that I do not agree with. So here is a couple things that have worked for me.
      The person states their disagreement with a rule then I use one of these options:

      1) Tell them that I can understand why they are saying that. But the rule is in place because [fill in with reason].

      2) I give them indication that I have heard/understood what they have just said, but unfortunately the rule is in place and we must adhere to it. I point out the rule is required of everyone, so we are all in the same boat. If I can I offer some one to contact to discuss changing the rule. [I use this when I reeeeally disagree with the rule.]

      3) Sometimes my thinking changes. After I have been on a job long enough, I start to understand why the rule is necessary. In those cases I will mention this, “you know, when I first started working here, I would have totally agreed with you. But , now I see that once in a while we have problems with X so we actually have to have this rule.” I expand on how I learned that, or came to understand the importance.

      4) I am surprised by how often a redirect works. “I am sorry that is the rule. Hey, was that book helpful for your project?” This is good in low key situations, with people who will probably not push the envelop. I shrug sometimes along with my words, as if to emphasize- “Eh, it is the way it is. What can ya do?”

    5. Ragnelle*

      When it comes to enforcing rules at the library (and trying to feel authoritative in general), here are my suggestions:

      -Don’t discuss–inform. Practice saying a few key phrases like “I need you to stop doing X” and “You’ll have to leave if you continue to do Y.” Resist the urge to over-explain or equivocate. Hand the person a copy of the policies, if you think it will help (if the policies are vague, it probably won’t).
      -Wear “authority clothes” if you need (this is how I feel about my eyeliner), but only pick things you can wear comfortably. Don’t wear 3-inch heels because they make you taller if you can’t walk confidently in them. This will actually undercut your authority.
      -Reward good behavior. If your usual troublemakers learn that you are nice and friendly and will talk to them about books and recommend good movies when they follow the rules, most will start following the rules.
      -Consider ways that the current library environment is either encouraging bad behavior or discouraging good behavior. Talk to library management about what you’ve noticed, and advocate for the teens to have a better place to chit chat, meet, study, whatever it is they need to do. Maybe propose some more teen programs where they can meet somewhere else and game or do crafts or some other activity they enjoy. Even if they cause problems, they are your patrons, too, so try to find innovative ways of engaging them.

      Hope this helps. Try not to be too discouraged, especially if having to do enforcement is only a small part of your job. Focus on the things and people that make you feel like you are making a positive difference, because you are.

      1. Aisling*

        I absolutely agree! As a 5’1″ female, I’m the one who polices the teens the most in my library. Size really has nothing to do with it. Inform, do not discuss – as they will generally always try to convince you that you’re wrong. In my library, after 2 warnings, we boot them for the day. The teens know I will actually do that, so I generally get better behavior from them than my coworkers, who feel mean if they kick kids out. I’m also in a library where the level of noise that will not be tolerated is just not clear. I give warnings for cussing, inappropriate conversations loud enough for everyone to hear, yelling or calling across the library to their friends, running, wrestling, and some others. I really had to try giving warnings a few times to see what level of noise my management was comfortable with, and to date they’ve never told me to knock it off.

        I can be just as authoritative in jeans as anything else, and I don’t wear blazers. I really think it’s confidence. When I talk to the teens, I give them a choice: quit what you’re doing, or you’re going to have to leave. At that point the choice is up to them, and I don’t feel bad for asking them to leave if they don’t behave. They made that decision themselves. If they see you wavering in what you’re saying, they’re going to try to talk you out of it. If they won’t leave when asked, ask a security guard to escort them out, or call the police if you don’t have a guard. Things will settle down after the kids see you’re serious.

        It sucks, and this was not something that I knew I’d have to do either. I have learned to tolerate a higher noise level than I’m comfortable with, but I’ve also learned to nip issues in the bud as fast as I can. No running – you might knock over a toddler or an unsteady elderly person. No cussing or inappropriate sex talk – the 5 year old’s mother does not want to explain that one! And on and on. I see it as making the library a safe and welcoming place for everyone.

        And no, I don’t hate teens. I’ve worked with our summer reading teens for the past few summers, and I had a blast! I’m just all for a library that everyone is able to use without anyone hindering access for anyone else.

    6. girlonfire*

      Another script you can use with the teens when they push back is, “I know you disagree, but it’s my job to enforce the library’s rules. If you can’t follow them, I will ask you to leave.” That way you’re not agreeing with rules but making it clear you will follow them and expect them to do the same.

      Also, can you observe other people when it’s their time to monitor the library? Maybe keep a notebook where you note when they enforce rules, or when they decide it’s too loud, to better evaluate the boundaries you’re expected to keep? Or keep a journal where you evaluate your day; if you didn’t handle something the way you wish you had, reflect on it and determine what you would do differently next time. Then put it out of mind and don’t dwell on learning mistakes!

      And, FWIW, “talking to them as though they’re actual humans and developing rapport” is not mutually exclusive with “having authority”. You can absolutely develop a rapport with these kids, and they likely will respect you more for it. But you still have to be consistent and fair when rules are violated, without letting your rapport with them give more slack than they deserve.

      1. TL -*

        Yes to the last paragraph! You can absolutely develop rapport while maintaining a position of authority – and, frankly, with kids and teens, you should strive to do that. Teens rely on authority figures to make decisions and enforce boundaries that they’re still struggling with.

    7. Observer*

      I’m betting that I’m overlapping what others have said, as I haven’t read the replies yet.

      The rules are the rules and everyone needs to abide by them. Period. This is not up for discussion. When the kids start to argue, you need to shut it down.

      Your clothes need to be put together and a bit (not too much) more formal than what the kids wear. And you need to carry yourself with the authority that you have the right to enforce the rules and the assumption that they will do what they are supposed to.

    8. cuppa*

      A lot of great advice here. The biggest thing with teens is that you need to have guidelines and enforce them. I’ve learned as I get older that I did a lot of things as a teen and child that were, really, super, annoying to others, but that thought absolutely would not have occurred to me at the time. “Use your best judgement” doesn’t really work for teens.
      Do your teens have a place to go? Things to do? If they are going there, and have nowhere to sit, etc. etc., then yes, they are going to be in the way and they are going to be a disruption for everyone. Is there a way you can set up a space for them to be a little more “disruptive” (a meeting room?) in order to prevent a disruption for the rest of the library? Is there any way you can relax the rules during the peak teen times and allow a little more noise in the library?
      Another thing I have learned is to not look at teens as a problem from the second they walk in the library. In order to gain respect, you have to cut them a little slack. I realize that this can be a slippery slope (yes, you let adults have conversations in the library, but one adult having a conversation is way different than ten teens having a conversation), but I see so many librarians just acting like teens are the plague of the earth, and one giggle gets them kicked out. That absolutely does you no favors.
      The key is to set expectations and enforce them fully. I know that “use your best judgement” is tough, but essentially, that is what you have to do. Probably the best thing I would do is make every effort to minimize their ability to be disruptive, and then enforce from there. There are also hard deal-breakers (cursing, shouting, running, etc.) You get one warning and then you have to leave. It has to be absolutely consistent. Be sure of yourself, be friendly when you aren’t kicking them out, and be consistent. Good luck!

    9. HR Generalist*

      I used to work in a library so I love this question!

      I learned quickly that the authoritative style doesn’t work for me, and I think treating them like humans is a better ideology anyway. I would approach loud groups the way I’d want to be approached, “Hey guys, you’re getting a little loud and might be disturbing other people in the area – do you mind taking it to (outside, conference room, coffee shop, etc) if you need to be this loud to work together?” I found that usually works and I still use the same approach if it escalates. My second warning would be “hey guys – I hate to do this but I’m giving you a second warning here, you’re just too loud and my boss is going to crack down on me if I don’t act on it. If I have to ask you again it’ll unfortunately mean you have to leave.” It’s a little passive aggressive I guess, but I prefer acting like they’re my friends (on the same plain of respect) than “you have to listen to me!!”

      Consider re-zoning – our library was a “one size fits all” quiet area but I found it much better in university when the libraries I’d go to were zoned into separate quiet areas and loud/teamwork spaces.

    10. Cristina in England*

      Ugh, this is a personal pet peeve on mine. I cannot stand it when libraries’ behaviour policies begin and end with “what personally annoys the librarian”, because that’s what you get when you don’t have written, clear policies. Even a simple “be respectful of others’ need for quiet, no eating and drinking, 4 people to a table, and no cell phone conversations” posted on a wall is a mile better than “use your judgement”. It is incredibly unfair to staff working with young people because kids are so prone to pushing boundaries.
      My suggestions would be to try and develop rapport when possible. In the end, a library is a service and patrons are customers. Without customers, you’re out of business. One of my favorite research papers about the service profession used the terms “service enthusiasts and service bureaucrats”. The bureaucrat might be a school librarian who punishes students for having the wrong kind of hall pass by sending them back to class, even if it was the teacher’s fault for filling it out wrong. The enthusiast would be a school librarian who let students break the ‘4 to a table’ rule if they were working on a group project (this is a good “use your judgement” example, but it is in fact based on a concrete rule).
      Anyway, back to your question. If the noise isn’t bothering you but is bothering other librarians, why aren’t they the ones to go address it, why are you being put in the middle? It seems like there is some poor staff behaviour going on that is adding pressure on you.

    11. TL -*

      Authority is about attitude, not appearance. When I TA’d, I was only 2 years older than the kids in my classes and often wore hoodies and jeans, but they figured out quickly that I meant business.

      Just be firm – make clear your boundaries and then outline consequences, then follow through. Do this verbally enough and you’ll be able to correct your regulars with just a look after a while. Be friendly and polite and firm. Follow through; don’t make empty threats. Apologize if you’re mistaken about something. Remember that you’re not their friend, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have a good rapport with them or that you can’t be interested in their lives/selves.

  15. Sunflower*

    Wondering if I handled this the right way. My sister works at a great public accounting company and I’d like to get in there working in support services. I applied for Job A(not in my city) and am now in an internal referral system. I was contacted by a recruiter about a Job B in my city. After looking at the description, I asked my sister about the job and she said she had no idea what it was. It didn’t really seem to fit with where I wanted to go next and it felt like a big step down(Job A was degree and 2 years experience, Job B was high school diploma and some college credits). I told the recruiter I was looking for something more project focused and to keep me in mind for any future openings at which she said to apply through the internal system for anything that interested me.

    My sister FLIPPED out. She came back and told me that 1. I should have applied because I want to get my foot in the door 2. Job A and B are actually very related and close to the same job(I didn’t get that at all from the description). 3. They don’t hire anyone who doesn’t have a degree and 4. Said a lot of jobs are never posted on the system so I should have told the recruiter more about my future plans esp since she recruits out of the city I want to move to.

    Should I have said I was interested in the job? Gone into more depth? Maybe if the job was actually way more hands on and invasive than the description said I would be interested but I felt it was so obvious that I was overqualified for the job- I kind of got the impression she was contacting me as only a courtesy. Also, I doubt the salary would have been what I’m looking for and I would not want to stay in the role for a long time. Just wondering if I burned a bridge or if my sister is just being nuts(she got recruited her out of college so she has never really gone through a formal job search)

      1. fposte*

        Seriously. No need to loop sister in in future, especially with that initial “I dunno” that turns into “I know everything about this job and how you did it wrong!”

        1. Sunflower*

          Initially I did need her because the company puts internal referrals into their own separate system so in order to get the referral, she had to set that up but now that I’m in, I’m in. I’m just not going to mention anything else to her if I do find something I’m interested in there since it seems like I might not even get the real picture of the job.

    1. Sadsack*

      I think you handled it fine. You were honest about your thoughts on the job. There is no guarantee that you will move up any time soon by taking a lower level job than you are qualified for, or that you are interested in. You could be stuck at the lower level for years, being paid way less than you want or deserve, so I think you were right to pass it up.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Some people want the foot-in-the-door method and some people hold out for the job they want.
        I suspect Sis used the foot-in-the-door method and is not at the job she wants.

  16. Mary (in PA)*

    Ooh, I’ve been waiting for this too!

    I got fired this week. It’s a dumb situation; there is fault on both sides. I got frog-marched out of the building at noon and had to return to pick up my personal effects. However, after talking with my former boss yesterday and getting a copy of my severance agreement, he told me that the company wants me to come back as an hourly consultant “to aid in the transition.” You see, I worked as the only member of the marketing department, and now obviously someone else is going to have to do what I was doing, whether it’s someone there already or someone that they hire. Quite honestly, even though the company is run by a couple of very poor managers, everyone else I worked with was kind, helpful, and genuinely awesome. My leaving so abruptly disrupts their lives more than anything else, and having the chance to go back and prepare adequate documentation for them would be a huge help. I want to be helpful; I want to make their lives easier; I also want to move on with my own life. Has anyone else ever been in this kind of situation before? What would you do? Thanks in advance for your input.

    1. Celeste*

      I wouldn’t do it, because of the frog march. Let them spend the money on a consultant because of their business practices.

      But that’s just me. I totally understand your reasons for loyalty to the others, but the reality is that they work for a crappy company that doesn’t have its act together.

    2. sev*

      Not me, but my partner. They wanted to tell the old company to get stuffed, but old company agreed to not contest unemployment in exchange. But if not for that agreement, they totally would’ve told the old company to get stuffed because it wasn’t their fault the company hurt itself by firing them.

    3. Cautionary tail*

      Since you have extreme short-term value to them make them pay for it. “Sure I would love to help you, just sign here to agree to my $500 per hour rate.”
      Seriously, if you were fog-marched out then this will last as short a time as possible so any hourly rate won’t last long.

      All this assumes you need the money. If you don’t then focus on your future, not theirs, which you will have to do shortly or right now anyway.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        I estimate it would take me 4 8-hour days to prepare adequate documentation, whether they hire someone immediately or have existing employees pick up what I was doing. And even if they plan to have the beleaguered IT manager pick things up for the moment, the more I can document for him to refer to, the better. He’s a smart guy, but it would be tough for him to pick up and run with a year’s worth of marketing planning in a single conversation.

        I realize that I have no obligation to help them out with their abrupt decision, and I’m not in dire financial straits. But the money would help. It always does.

        1. Cautionary tail*

          If you have no immediate need for the money, like bill collectors knocking on your door, then I have to agree with the other posters to move on with your life and make sure you get uncontested unemployment. Heck if you have an offer in writing from them to do consulting, you could take that straight into unemployment as proof that you were not fired for performance. It’d be hard for them to contest their own words.

          1. Lily in NYC*

            I was coming to write this as well. Let them suffer unless you really need the money. Frog-marching someone who hasn’t done something dangerous or illegal seems like major overkill. We used to escort people out after their being let go but our new president put a stop to it because everyone was so disgusted by it.

    4. TOC*

      I wouldn’t do it, either. If this place was so awful, why would you want to remain messily entangled with them? “Feeling bad” isn’t a good enough reason to put yourself through misery. Put your energy into finding a new job at a more positive place. You can reach out to your colleagues personally to express how much you enjoyed working with them, and offer to serve as a reference or resource when they’re ready to move on to a more functional workplace.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree with the “feeling bad” as not being a strong reason. If you have another reason that you are not mentioning that might be worth considering. But lacking any other reason, no I would not do it. The whole thing sounds dramatic- they walked you out then you had to go back in???? ugh. ugh.

        I jumped out at me that you said you want to go on with your life. I think you should go on with you life.

    5. Barbara in Swampeast*

      I wonder if you could negotiation something like sev’s partner. The company and you will agree to say that the separation was by mutual agreement that it just didn’t work out, instead of them saying they fired you.

      If you do go back, remember to ask for AT LEAST 1.3x of your salary because you will be responsible for your own taxes and FICA. And make it part time so you have time to concentrate on finding a new job.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        The severance agreement says the separation was mutual. (Haven’t signed it yet.)

        If I do go back, they are definitely going to give me a big pile of money.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, good–you kept talking about how you wanted to help them and I was afraid the money part was going to be a pittance as a result. And make sure it’s a big pile of money for a contractor, not just an employee, since your costs will be much higher.

          1. Mary (in PA)*

            Definitely not a pittance. I would probably begin with my current freelance editing rate, which is around US$75/hour. 32 hours of work at that rate would be a hefty sum.

            1. Natalie*

              Hell, if it won’t be too painful for you I say go for it. You’re getting a pretty good deal here – they’ll say the separation was mutual *and* pay you a good bit.

              1. Dynamic Beige*

                And I was going to say double it… you know, with all the additional taxes added in, annoyance tax, jackass tax, I can’t believe you want me to come back here after giving me the boot tax…

        2. Cautionary tail*

          I have a HUGE RED FLAG on the mutual separation. To me this if you sign it as is then you may not get unemployment because you quit, you were not laid off/fired for nonperformance reasons.

    6. Grand Canyon Jen*

      If they fired you and escorted you from the premises, that is the end for them. You are not responsible for their poor decision. If they didn’t think it through, that is on them. I was in a similar situation before (felt responsible to my former co-workers), but if the company doesn’t have a transition plan, that is absolutely not your problem. Your colleagues will understand.

    7. Pooski*

      I would think that you need to balance a couple more things than what you mentioned:
      1) Your need of the money from the contracting work
      2) Your need of a reference for the company
      After firing you and frog marching you out of the building I don’t think you have any reason to help your former employer at all – the co-workers that you found tolerable included. In the end, they still have jobs, and you do not, so they are in a much better situation and you should not have to feel bad for them at all. But having said that, if you need the money or really need the reference, I could understand going back – but in this situation it would be because of your needs, not anyone elses.

    8. BRR*

      First I would look at this financially. Do you need the money? Keep in mind this will affect your unemployment as well. If you can comfortably afford to not do this I wouldn’t and would say, “because of how we parted I would feel uncomfortable continuing to work at chocolate teapot inc.”

      If you need the money or for personal satisfaction you could try asking for a higher hourly rate or your benefits (specifically insurance comes to mind) to continue.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        That is a great idea, though I am not on the company health insurance plan and was not yet permitted to contribute to the 401K program.

    9. Christian Troy*

      FROG MARCH?? I’m sorry but what??? That sounds insane. I would never speak to these people again.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I had to google “frog march” and if this is literally what they did to you, then there is no way in hell I would go back. Like others have said, your former colleagues will understand.

        I would also really have to think about signing something that says that the separation was mutual, unless they are giving you a big pile of money to sign it. I’m guessing that you will not be able to get unemployment benefits if you sign something that says you were not fired.

    10. Artemesia*

      It would be a cold day in hell before I helped a company that treated me like that. Frog march me out of the building and you don’t get anything from me that I do not legally have to provide. Let this be their problem. You are too busy. You don’t have to tell them ‘screw you’, you can just let them know that you don’t have the time to do that. Your former co-workers are their responsibility and helping them helps people who publicly humiliated you. No way.

    11. Jady*

      You’ve got all the power in this situation, so I’d say do what you want or need to do.

      If you need the money, it will give you time to look for a new job while still having an income. You can probably get away with demanding a pretty high rate since they rely so heavily on you, and probably add in other conditions like a better severeness and/or not contesting unemployment claims. Either way, if I decided to do it, I’d try to get as much out of it as possible.

    12. INTP*

      I personally would be open to it if paid at market standard short-term consultant rates — i.e. very, very high, a lot more than it would have cost them to just employ you for another week. Ask for something above your current freelance rate, expect them to bargain down, but still try to gouge them :) If they asked you back after a frog march, they’re probably desperate.

    13. Camellia*

      First, I urge you NOT to do this.

      However, if you decide to do so, please please please have a formal/legal contract with every stipulation possible spelled out and SIGNED by all parties BEFORE you do one little jot of work. My guess is that, if you insist upon this, they will hem and haw and somehow just not get around to signing.

    14. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      People who frog march you don’t get an extension of credit.

      Don’t be the sad letter to AAM three months from now about how they never paid your bill. You aren’t going to have any employment protections on getting paid. You’d have to take them to small claims court.

      Retainer or nothing. You get a retainer. You work the retainer off. Then you get another retainer.

      I’m serious. I can smell a bad credit risk 100 miles away.

      1. Cautionary tail*

        If you work for them, then Wakeen’s has given the best advice of all of us.

        Still the best advice bar none is to walk and don’t look back, after you remove that mutual BS.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Yeah, I agree. I just had the feeling, reading the thread, that the odds were more on the work being done than not.

      1. weird name gal*

        I did too – and this is what I got:

        past tense: frog-marched; past participle: frog-marched

        force (someone) to walk forward by holding and pinning their arms from behind.
        “the cop frogmarched him down the steep stairs”

        Is THAT what they did to you??? whoa. negotiate to get UE, get a good recommendation, and charge a TON of money hourly for your services……if you need the money.

        1. Mary (in PA)*

          Ugh, I definitely used the term incorrectly in my original post. That’s on me. The president (who is the one who fired me) asked me to leave immediately, without saying goodbye to anyone or even allowing me to gather my personal effects (like photos and such.)And hovered, to make sure that I did so. Though the situation was uncomfortable and awkward, he did not physically manhandle me out of the building.

          I have a call out to an employment attorney. Though I believe the offer for consulting services was made in good faith by the company president, the company owner is…well, very litigious. I want to have all my bases covered.

          1. Cautionary tail*

            Mary (in PA),

            Here’s an employment attorney in PA that I have used before and highly recommend: Robin Bond at RobinBond . com.

            1. Mary (in PA)*

              Thank you! I will check that out.

              And thanks to everyone else who replied, as well. I hope to continue to keep all of you updated as the situation develops.

  17. Ariela*

    I gave a 3 week notice, which is generous compared to the normal 2 weeks in my field and pay grade. I’m leaving because I’m moving out of state, but I’m not physically leaving immediately- I have loose ends to tie up, and so I’m budgeting about 6 weeks before I physically move. My manager really wants me to be as available as possible after my end date, especially because I am not starting a new job immediately. I am thinking about asking for a temporary raise on my salary, or to work as a consultant. I’m worried that doing that would spoil the possibility of a good reference. Is there any way I can get the extra money without ruining my relationship with my manager? What percentage higher of my current salary should I ask for?

    1. Iro*

      I’m really not sure what you are asking here. Is it a) you are considering asking for a raise at the job you are leaving for the last three weeks? Which is totally innappropriate. Or are you b) asking for additional money at the job offer you just accepted? Which is also innapproriate.

      I may be misunderstanding your situation, but if you accepted an offer the time for negotiating sign on bonuses, your salary, relocation expenses, etc is over. If, however, you are still negotiating a start date you might be able to say something like “Due to financial constraints I can not start before X date but if I were to be granted reolcation assistance I could start as soon as Y date.” But it doesn’t really sound like you are still in this stage since you have already given notice to your previous employer.

      1. fposte*

        I think she’s talking about doing work for the old job past her notice period. In that case, a contractor arrangement would be appropriate, though a bit uncommon for such a short term; a raise would be highly unusual.

        Honestly, Ariela, I’d discourage you from doing either in most cases, and this sounds like one of them. This isn’t just a “We need to finish up the Andronicus project,” it just sounds like security-blanket stuff from your manager. You’re leaving; you need to focus on your time off and your new job, not ways to tie you to the old job for nonspecific reasons. State that you’ll be happy to answer help emails in the first week or two, so long as they’re below a level that you’d need to charge them for, and move on.

        1. Ariela*

          fposte, that is the situation. It is not only a security blanket issue- there has been a lot of turnover in the office recently. Once I am gone, the most senior person in my department will only have been here for 2 months. Obviously, retention issues are not my problem. I also really don’t want to work extra past my end date- I would much rather have a clean break and work on having an easy move. I’m just worried about both the fallout with me ‘betraying’ my manager and ruining the reference, or the fallout from ‘betraying’ my manager by asking for a 15% raise for any work done after my end date.

          1. Gene*

            15% isn’t enough. You’ll be working as a contractor, so you need to cover all the taxes, you may need to get a business license with the city and or state, your tax filings are going to be more complicated.

            You say “really don’t want to work extra past my end date”; don’t. You gave him a three week notice; do the best you can to wrap up loose ends and document, then leave your badge and key on his desk your last day.

          2. Artemesia*

            3 weeks notice is generous and it is perfectly clean to not be available after that point. Asking for a raise is odd. Don’t give off the vibe that you will be around and ‘could’ help out when you are in the middle of a move and don’t want to do it. ‘I gave 3 weeks notice instead of 2 because I want to do my best to make a smooth transition, but I won’t be able to be available after March 1’

            Less said other than that, the better.

    2. Spiky Plant*

      I would recommend doing this as a consultant, and specifying an hours cap (so you can spend most of your time tying up loose ends), and an hourly rate that is at least 1.25 times your previous hourly equivalent. Since you’re transitioning to a new job, I’m guessing there’s no benefit-purchasing at play, so that would be my sort of minimum. However, if you calculate that out and it doesn’t seem worth it, up it to whatever would make it worth your time to do it.

      If you are polite and professional (maybe adding a “I understand if that’s just not in the budget, but I wanted to offer my services during the transition, and this is the only way I can” then I can’t imagine it affecting your reference. Unless your boss is a crazy person.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Just enjoy the break between jobs and tell your boss you decided to leave town earlier than originally planned. I think many people give their employers way too much information when they leave. I think it would be weird to ask for more money – you resigned, you weren’t fired.

    4. College student*

      I would just leave and not worry about any “work” from your old work place after said date of leave. It just solves so many problems and eliminates any future problems.

  18. Fawn*

    Looking for a managerial perspective on whether a request is reasonable or not. I’m pretty early on in my career (~2 years) in higher ed. My portfolio includes a bit of student counselling, which is by far my favourite part of my job…so much so that I’m considering working towards becoming a guidance counsellor more formally as a long term career goal, and have been exploring volunteer opportunities to gain more experience. I’ve recently found an opportunity in a high-needs high school classroom that would be a great fit for volunteering. The program runs one morning a week, from 9-12.

    Now for the question. I’m salaried in a fairly autonomous junior position. I have a great boss who has generally been supportive of my professional development so far. Am I totally off the mark in thinking that it’s reasonable to request a regular morning off to allow for this volunteering, and make up for the 3 hours by staying late throughout the rest of the week? If you had this request from a report, would you have thoughts or concerns that I could preemptively address at the time or my request?

    1. Judy*

      I’m not in higher ed, but it is not that unusual in businesses to have active recruitment for either JA-type volunteers or STEM-type volunteers. I’ve gone to talk at high schools both at a one time all day event and also a 6 week once a week class. In my case, it was considered volunteering in the same way our company sponsored Habitat builds, so I didn’t need to make up the time. (Of course, I generally work enough extra time, that making up 8 hours to have a 40 hour week would only take 2-3 weeks.) I’ve either taken vacation days or modified hours to go on field trips for my kids school.

      My husband teaches at a community college, and he has “program outreach time” in which he is encouraged to go do STEMy things with the local schools.

    2. Anna*

      I don’t think it’s crazy, but be prepared to answer questions about how you intend to get any work done that would need input from coworkers who are gone for the day, etc. You would also want it to be a new schedule instead of “last week I stayed three hours late on Wednesday, this week I’m breaking it up in half hour increments over the rest of the week”. You might also couch it in how it would be good for your current role and company. What will it add to the work you’re doing now rather than just focusing on how it will benefit you long term.

    3. INTP*

      In the corporate world, this would not be a good idea. As a junior employee you don’t want to give the impression that you’re seeking professional development outside of the company (unless it’s classes in skills you would use in the company, but not volunteering). I am not sure how this would differ in higher ed, though. I believe it’s more accepted for people to openly seek to grow outside their current roles.

      1. Natalie*

        I think that’s an overly broad statement. Whether this would raise any kind of red flag in the corporate world vastly depends on what kind of work you do, how dependent other people are on your physical presence, and the company’s general attitude towards both volunteering and ROWE vs butts in seats.

      2. Labratnomore*

        I disagree on this one. It would not be a problem at all at my company. We have had people who had to adjust their hour to do weekly thing for their kids, go to school, and other personal activities. Often times the schooling they were going to was not related to their current jobs, and we knew they would be leaving upon graduation. If it was a worry that they wouldn’t want you to go because it is career development that is not related to your current job you could easily just approach it as a volunteer opportunity for a cause you really care about. Of course it all depends on the job you do and if there is any significant impact to not being there for part of a day, but if your work is something that can be accomplished at any time I think only a poor manager would have a problem with it. Good luck!

    4. College Career Counselor*

      I’ve seen this done in the higher ed landscape. In one case, the supervisor worked out a combination of flex-time scheduling and vacation to cover someone’s internship while she was in graduate school. Higher education can be more accommodating than the corporate world for this kind of thing, but YMMV, and the needs of the office/dept. are going to come first. I think it’s worth having the conversation, particularly if you can explain during that conversatoin how you plan to mitigate any problems (front desk coverage, contact with colleagues, specific deadlines, etc.) that might arise from your absence.
      Good luck!

    5. Blue_eyes*

      Design and clear plan for how you will make up the hours and get all your work done so you can go to your boss with a solid plan. You might also ask to do the volunteering on a trial basis for a month or so and then re-evaluate with your boss to make sure you’re stilling getting all your work done.

  19. Mar*

    Resume question for ya’ll: How would you list four positions at one company, starting at an associate level and working your way up to director? I’m working with a career development coach (not *that* kind) who strongly recommended that I list it like this:

    Director of Chocolate Teapot Development (May 2011-Present) — with a consolidated list of top achievements from all roles, but not including the prior titles

    She says that I should represent myself by my current director-level position; otherwise, I’m selling myself short…. She recommended I talk about rising up in the ranks in my cover letter. I don’t feel right about this. It feels deceitful! Maybe if I DID do this I could put a bullet saying something like “Previous positions held:…”

    What are your thoughts, fabulous commentariat?

    1. Mary (in PA)*

      I have this, too! I have two positions that moved up in title/responsibility while I was in them. I show them like this:

      Editorial Assistant –> Copy Editor
      Chocolate Teapots, Inc., Pittsburgh, PA
      – Responsibility 1
      – Responsibility 2
      – Etc.

      You may not have room for all four on a single line, but using arrows like that is an efficient way to show how you moved up.

    2. Iro*

      You definitely want to show the progression to directorship. 1) you don’t want to mislead people into thinking you have been a director the entire time and 2) having little to no experience and then suddenly a directorship might actually do you more harm than good because people will assume it’s an inflated title that you didn’t earn.

      If you show the natural progression of your roles you are actually doing yourself a favor.

      Also this is how I do it:
      Director, Company A, January – Present
      Jr Team lead Company A May – January

      1. Mar*

        Thank you for this advice! This resonates with me much more. And that’s such a good point that suddenly moving from an entry level to director role would look like a totally inflated title!

        I’m planning to combine the first two roles (associate & coordinator), and keep the achievements minimal there, so that my stint at this company doesn’t take up the whole page!

      2. EmilyG*

        I agree with this. Also showing these promotions within a single organization would strike me as a sign that you’re very valuable and good at what you do! It would actually impress me more than if you’d been in the same position the whole time.

      3. Karowen*

        I agree that you want the natural progression. To keep from having to repeat my company’s (way-too-long) name, I have it set up as:

        Chocolate Teapot Conglomerates R Us (2008-Present)
        Superwoman (2013-Present)
        Supergirl (2012-2013)


        1. DJ*

          My husband has spent pretty much his entire career at one company, and had also moved up the ranks. His resume is set up just like Karowen’s.

    3. Joey*

      It depends. If the titles are a natural progression in a career path from your then I would just list your current title. For example if your previous job was Engineering assistant and you lateralled to another company and worked up to Sr Engineer it’s sufficienct to just list Sr. Engineer and talk about it in the interview. But, if you came in as Engineering Asst, and got promoted to Budget Analyst, to to Sr. Ops Manager it would be more valuable to list all titles.

    4. LillianMcGee*

      I am also interested in peoples suggestions to this issue.

      Another semi-related question I have is should I include my time as an unpaid intern? I’ve been at the same place for 5 years, spent the first 4 months as an intern and now worked my way up to supervisor.

    5. Judy*

      I’ve generally done:

      Chocolate Teapots LTD, Hershey, PA (2007-Present) ((BOLDED))
      Director of Chocolate Teapot Development (2012-Present) ((ITALICS))
      Stuff ((NORMAL))

      Manager of Handle Design (2010-2012) ((ITALICS))

      Senior Handle Designer (2007-2010)

      I guess I feel it’s good to show longevity with the company, and then be clear about the roles held and timeframe.

        1. Judy*

          I just always felt that if you didn’t make the company the heading, and have dates there, it looked like job hopping at first glance. It also felt that you needed to have dates on each position.

      1. puddin*

        This is how I have mine set up and it conveys the progression nicely. My (otherwise useless) recruiter commented that she thinks that is the best way to set that situation up on a resume.

    6. Apollo Warbucks*

      You should being showing the progression of your career, list them all as separate jobs, after all it something to be very proud being promoted a number of times and it is a more straight forward logical way to present your experience.

    7. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      I have:

      Bank 2006-Present
      Job Current (dates)
      Job Before (dates)

      This way I can show the achievements in each role and show my progression through the company as I was promoted without misidentifying that I’ve been in my highest level role longer than I have.

    8. themmases*

      I have two positions at one company due to a promotion, and I list them separately. For me the higher position is also my longest position and I wore a lot of hats, so I am usually claiming to be qualified for stuff on the basis of that job. I give it a lot of space on my CV without implying that I held it the whole time.

      I made the higher position a lot longer and listed only a couple of highlights of the older, lower position. My goal in writing it was to a) not waste a lot of space describing an assistant position, but b) have anyone who did read be impressed at what I did as only an assistant. To me that is both more honest, and worth the trade-off of having someone not read closely and think I changed jobs.

    9. Labratnomore*

      I have done it like this and it has been well received:

      Current title – Dates
      Previous title – Dates
      Title before that one – Dates

      I do it this way because the jobs were so similar, just a promotion with slight additions to responsibilities. If I listed them in separate sections it would take up too much space. Also many of the accomplishments overlapped multiple titles. This avoids the appearance of missrepresenting yourself, and also shows you have been sucessful enough to get promoted.

      1. Anon333*

        This is how I do it too – same situation (similar role, more levels of responsibility each time)

  20. Nervous New Hire*

    So, I just recently accepted a job offer contingent on a background check, and according to the BG check company, the report is done. My start date is in a week, and I’m supposed to get an account to fill out all sorts of paperwork, but there’s been no updates to me.

    Can someone reassure me that no news is good news? I’m pretty sure I don’t have red flags on the background check, but I’m kind of unsure what the general procedure is around hiring and BG checks. The company would respond immediately if there were problems, right?

    1. BRR*

      They would contact you (it happened to my friend when the background company messed up). New employees don’t typically fill anything out until their first day.

      1. Jady*

        This has been my experience in all of my jobs. You get the pile of paperwork on your start day – either at the office or via mail. I’ve never gotten it in advanced.

        OP – To comfort your nerves, you could always send an email to the hiring person and say something like “What time should I arrive in the office on [date]?” It isn’t all that abnormal for a person to be asked to come in an hour or so late to give people time to prepare your equipment and such.

        1. Nervous New Hire*

          Yeah, I’ve gotten an e-mail even before my background check went through that told me my start date & time, along with driving directions. The only thing that’s worrying me is that the e-mail also said that certain paperwork should be completed before that date via their online portal, and I’ve so far not received the info to log in! *stress* I think I’ll e-mail my recruiter closer to the start date if I still haven’t received any further info, if it’s custom to leave the official paperwork stuff close to the start date.

    2. Nerd Girl*

      I’d follow up with the hiring manager/contact person with a quick email.
      Something like:
      I’m really looking forward to starting on Monday. Is there any additional info I may need to bring in with me? (also a great place to ask any questions about parking, building entry, etc).

      1. Nervous New Hire*

        Thanks! I think I’ll e-mail sometime in the middle of next week, and then call on Monday if I still don’t receive the information. Hopefully this is just something they leave closer to the start date and I’m worrying for nothing.

  21. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    This Week at My Job: My coworkers and I received our paycheques a day late, because according to my boss, “you didn’t ask me for them and I just forgot. You need to remind me!” No, we need to remind you if you genuinely forget, but this is the third straight pay period you’ve left before giving us our cheques. Write yourself a damn sticky note, set an alarm, fix it.

    Last week he told us all about how we needed to pitch in and help out, keep our space clean. When I got to work first and was shoveling the walk from the 20 cm of snow so other people could walk in, he turned up and asked “Look at you shoveling all by yourself! What are you doing that for?”

    This is the same guy who referred to the Dean of a local college’s technical department as “just a good Irish girl” behind her back. I give up.

      1. Jazzy Red*

        I would be IN the boss’s office first thing in the morning on payday and not leave until he started his rounds of delivering the checks (while offering to help him, of course).

        Sorry that you’re working for such a jerk.

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      This just in–my coworker was in talking to him and asked about the cheques, and he said “Well, did you email me the things I asked for by Saturday?” And when she said no, she had been busy with other (revenue-producing) work, he said “Get that to me and I’ll give you your cheque.”

      Not. Okay.

      1. BRR*

        My passive-aggressive side would just print out my state’s payment laws if he’s violating them and leave them on his desk. Possibly with the pertinent parts highlighted.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          Yeah, and also highlight the number that employees can call to report violations, so he can see that that may be under consideration.

  22. Katie the Fed*

    Been on vacation but back for this:

    I work in a male-dominated industry. From time to time I’ll encounter people who curse quite a bit. No big deal; I don’t really care. What DOES however bother me is when a man who will say something to me like “oh, I just realized I have to clean up my language since there’s a lady present! Huhuhuhuh”

    If you don’t want to curse around me, fine. Just stop. But why the need to make such a patronizing announcement?

    (fwiw I usually respond with a slightly bewildered/confused “ok…?”)

    1. Carrie in Scotland*

      I get that too!

      Especially where I volunteer – and I don’t work in a male orientated place. I think I also partly get it because I’m younger than the people saying it. Nobody my age or younger has ever said to me.

    2. hildi*

      I usually get rankled by all the gender outrage discussions, but I totally agree with you on this. I bet I could put some of those men to shame with my own mouth (which is not something I’m proud of and wish I was smarter to think of a different word to convey my emotions!), so yeah, I’m not fainting flower, dude.

      I usually smile and let them continue. I guess I’d rather have him be that way than a total ass to a woman. But still, it’s kind of a weirdly patronizing way to do it, I agree.

    3. Celeste*

      That’s a non-apology since it happens after the fact (and always will). You are right, it’s very sexist to keep calling attention to the fact that you’re a woman and they are not.

      I guess it depends on whether you want to take a stand or not.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Nah, I don’t want to take a stand. I just find it so patronizing, especially because it’s usually within a group setting, so I feel like it’s a bit of a power play, like “oh you’re probably one of those easily-offended women so we can’t have any fun now.” I really don’t carr, but I don’t feel the need to explain my views either.

        1. Anna*

          What the (actual eff word here) are you talking about?

          At least, that’s what I would do. I suppose I don’t need to say I curse a lot.

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            Ha. I was able to use something like this just recently. I went out for a beer for the first time last Friday night with my new, all-male, younger coworkers. I think they think I’m all prim because they’re 20’s – 30’s young men and I’m a 45-year-old woman.

            One of the guys, talking about why another one wasn’t there, said, “He’s probably at home [effing] his wife” (who had just returned from a trip). Then he said, “Oh god, Mallory, I’m sorry! God, I’ve got to learn to watch my language!” etc, etc.

            I just said, “That’s okay. Elmer, I know that people like to [eff] their wives.” Bam — hit of the evening!

        2. BRR*

          I would take a stand on the patronizing part. “Oh do you usually treat your female coworkers differently?”

    4. SpecialOps*

      I can’t count the number of times I’ve found myself in this same conversation and all I ever want to say is “Oh, FFS.”

      1. SpecialOps*

        I’m also with Hildi on wishing I didn’t swear as much. I find myself doing it as a way to build rapport (not swearing AT people, obv.) but like “hey we’re all friends, I’m being casual and swearing to underscore that fact”. And my guess is it probably backfires.
        It’s a trait similar to the DECADES I’ve spent telling goofy, self-deprecating stories about myself to build rapport and make others feel more comfortable about opening up. 60% of the time it works, 40% of the time I just overdisclose and act like a goofball with no relational payoff…and yet…I still do it.
        Whoaa…Wait? Am I doing it right now??

        1. hildi*

          Wow, SpecialOps, are we the same person? Because you articulated my thoughts exactly. I didn’t really think about that I swear too much in an effort to show I’m casual. Good insight!

          Oversharing – guilty. I think I self-disclose a lot to other people because (a) I mean it. I don’t do it until I feel like I can trust them with myself; (b) I do it for exactly the same reason: maybe others will feel like it’s a safe place to open up if I go first and show that I’m just as normal as them. And you’re right – success rate is most often good. But there will always be those misses.

    5. OfficePrincess*

      Ugh yes! Except with me it’s my boss who apologizes every. single. time. Or preemptively, if certain topics are being brought up. I’ve told him I don’t care, but it hasn’t changed. Of course, not only am I one of a handful of women in the building and the only one at my level or higher, I’m also young enough to be his daughter. At this point, I’m just rolling my eyes and letting it go.

    6. Sutemi*

      I find that with some of this type of man, dropping a well deserved curse (if you are someone who does occasionally curse in your private life) very occasionally does make them lighten up.

        1. fposte*

          The Miss Manners answer (paraphrased due to my fuzzy memory) is “Don’t worry about it–we don’t have time to work on your social graces or your grammar.”

          While it does tend to suggest it was wrong for him to swear, which isn’t a lesson I’d be likely to teach anybody, putting “grammar” in is great because it’s no longer about being excessively manly.

      1. beckythetechie*

        “Oh, guess we can’t cuss in the shop. There’s a girl here!”
        *turn around, look confused* “What the hell, where?”

        “Oops, there’s a lady present.”
        “And don’t you f****** forget it.”
        *shock brings silence*
        “Or maybe not.”

    7. MaryMary*

      I work in a male dominated industry (especially at a senior management level) and get this all the time. I usually roll my eyes and remind people I’ve heard the words before. I made a joke once about clutching pearls and just confused the men.

      What really gets me is that there is a young man in our office who is very religious, and I know profanity bothers him. The only people who apologize to him after they swear are the handful of people who know he dislikes swearing and remember to feel bad about it.

    8. BananaPants*

      I also work in a male-dominated industry. Fortunately my male coworkers/team members are aware that with very few exceptions, profanity isn’t something I’m going to get upset about, and in fact indulge in myself – only among my peers. I won’t swear gratuitously or in reference to a person, of course, but I have no qualms about saying, “Oh sh*t, the chocolate teapot tester just broke again!” when I’m in a group of my peers.

      I’ve experienced the apology lately when I was updating senior management on a major problem and a VP dropped the f-bomb then immediately looked at me and said “sorry” – I simply said, “Yeah, that was my reaction when we found out about the problem.” I wasn’t sure if he apologized because I was the only woman in the room or because I was by far the most junior person in the room, but either way I didn’t want to make him feel like the apology was necessary at all.

      1. Dmented Kitty*

        I won’t mind it much if they apologized for the sake of professionalism, that they realize they are in a professional setting and shouldn’t really be throwing out those words.

        I would feel awkward if they make a big show of apologizing because “there’s a lady in the room”. I would be less affected if they apologize regardless of whatever gender I have, the same reason as just trying to professional or civil (to err on the safe side i.e. if there are people within earshot who are offended by cuss words, or if they’re not sure how I’d react to it).

        IMO, cuss words are only as powerful as the meanings people put into them. To me, once someone throws a bunch of F-words every other word in a sentence, it starts losing its “flavor”. :/

        1. Sif*

          +1 for apologizing for the sake of professionalism, rather than “because there’s a lady present”! At work, people should keep the swear words to a minimum, regardless of who’s around.

    9. Nerd Girl*

      I have no witty comeback and don’t understand why men do this. The truth is I have the worst potty mouth. The “F” word is one of my favorite words and my husband hates it. LOL…which means when we’re fighting I use it 3 Xs many times I normally would. My husband was worried that my daughter’s first word would be a curse word based on the amount of time she spent in the car with me – I do the worst of my cursing when driving!

    10. CheeryO*

      I am the only woman in a department of 13, and I get this ALL the time. I don’t know how you’re supposed to respond to it. It’s weird, because they clearly respect me professionally and know that I’m capable of doing the job, but there are a couple who treat me like a delicate little flower socially. It doesn’t help that I’m 20-30 years younger than virtually all of them.

    11. Lily in NYC*

      ugh, that’s happened to me as well. I am a mouthy broad and said “Ladies say F*ck too you @sshole” in a jokey manner and the guy just laughed and said “touché”. But I knew it was ok to act like that with him – I would never say that to someone I didn’t know pretty well.

    12. Serin*

      “oh, I just realized I have to clean up my language since there’s a lady present! Huhuhuhuh”

      “Damned right you do! I am fucking offended.”

    13. Cupcake*

      I like the Miss Manners response. Otherwise, I would simply tell him it’s OK, I dropped the “Lady” title when I divorced Lord Farquahr.

  23. OfficePrincess*

    I’ve been mulling this over for a while and would love some thoughts on this. At what point is it reasonable to ask for the company (for-profit) to pay for a hotel during company-paid training? There’s a four-day training coming up that I’m required to go to. In the best possible traffic it’s about an hour and a half away, but it’s on the other side of a major city, so 2+ hours is more realistic. I’d have to be on the road between 5:30 and 6:00 every morning and wouldn’t get home until after 7:00. I’m at a point where I can’t really afford to cover a hotel in that area for that long (even the “budget” places) but 4 or more hours of travel a day for almost a week on top of keeping up with my regular responsibilities would be grueling. What’s normal in this type of situation?

    1. Lia*

      4 hours a day of travel is definitely something to consider — and wouldn’t the company reimburse you for mileage? Perhaps presenting the hotel coverage in lieu of mileage costs would help.

      I would definitely ask for them to cover it, and really, they ought to offer. You could always drive out early morning Day 1 and home in the evening of Day 4, so they would pay for hotel for nights 1, 2 and 3 only.

    2. Brett*

      My workplace goes with the irs definitions of local versus out of town travel.
      Out of town is travel where “duties require them to be away from the general area
      of home substantially longer than an ordinary day’s work, and sleep or rest is needed to meet the
      demands of the work while away from home.”
      Our manual even includes a specific example of travel to a city 2 hours away that would be local travel for a day trip, but should be classified as out of travel (and hotel provided) for a multi-day trip. Several of my co-workers have had that exact scenario (even with the example city in our manual) and always been given a hotel room to stay in.

      1. Cautionary tail*

        And yet I’ve had the opposite experience. I got conference organizers to give me a free attendance to a conference that was critical to work I was doing and the event also included breakfast and lunch. My company would need to pay for one night in a hotel/one dinner because the conference was a four-hour drive away.

        I was told I could attend if I drove the 16 hours across two days and paid for my own dinner, but they would not cover any travel expenses.

        Sadly I had to call the organizers to tank them for their gracious offer and tell them I could not attend

        Your mileage may vary…literally.

      1. Jazzy Red*

        Back to part 1 – You should also ask for your regular pay for the driving time (4 hours x your hourly pay).

        THEN settle for a hotel room.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          First, I would ask someone in the office/HR what the policy is for this sort of thing. Odds are, someone else has set the precedent.

          If there aren’t any other alternatives — no public transit, no friends who live in the area that you could crash on their couch for those days — then do push for a room. Honesty is always the best policy. IMO, asking for the room, the first word out of their mouth may be “no”. Assume you’re going to get one, and build your case. Do some research, find out what the rates are in the area and present it that you found X hotel at Y price (which would be cheaper than the $Z mileage), it may not be the hotel that is attached to the conference centre or right next door to the training. Because it’s always easier to go “Oh, I just thought with the 2 hour commute to get there in the morning, that a hotel would be part of this training… because I don’t think I could function at the required level to do the training if I’m exhausted and frazzled from driving in to it.” If then you get the “no, we can’t afford that/the optics on that”, explain to them that you can’t keep up with your work/e-mail as they require you to, take the training, be _present_ at the training and be driving 4 hours a day in rush hour during this period of time, you would need to include those hours as travel time. Hopefully, they will see that your request is reasonable and agree. After all, they do get to write off your expenses. I can see how any company would balk if you handed them a pricelist for the Four Seasons, but something more HolidayInn Express?

          However, I have occasionally been in similar situations where they were not reasonable and so I told a client I drove, charged them the mileage and just booked my own hotel room at a place I found that I could afford. Unless your company demands to see photos of your odometer or something, how are they going to know? You submit your hours, the mileage you would have driven, whatever meals you had and the hotel bill remains on your credit card, they will never be the wiser (so long as you aren’t reading or answering your e-mail during the time you should be driving and you keep your mouth shut) . Yes, it may not be completely above board, but you can’t reason with unreasonable people and I’m at an age where I can’t physically drive like that anymore and be functional — my health suffers. Unless you are the most amazing of morning people, no one could do that and get all they could out of a training course. One day, maybe, four days? They would be a gibbering idiot by the fourth day of 2 hour morning rush traffic.

        2. OfficePrincess*

          Unfortunately, I’m exempt, so it would just be mileage, not mileage plus time. But, thanks everyone for confirming tha it’s ok to ask. I’m still relatively new at this and not sure what’s “normal”.

          On the bright side, I’d be the only woman, so it would be my own room!

  24. Iro*

    How to move into management?

    I have 6 years of experience as a trainer/team lead where I have tangential management responsibilities (training, first point of contact for errors, scheduling, quality reviews etc) and I would really like to move into supervisor position where I have direct reports. Any suggestions for how to take the next step?

    1. Iro*

      Or perhaps a more answer friendly version: How did those of you who are direct supervisors land your first management position?

      1. Jen RO*

        My answer probably won’t be very helpful, because I never wanted to move into management, but here goes: I got this job by being good at my job, reliable, a source of calm in the team, no-drama and – while I wouldn’t call it going above and beyond – I was always happy to train and help my coworkers, who appreciated it and told the boss.

    2. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      I feel like a lot of “first” manager jobs kind of happen by accident and getting that FIRST ONE is always kind of the hardest. I would say that you just need to try to be really awesome at your current job and talk to your manager about development so they know you are interested. Also, you might have to move companies… sometimes going to another company can help: you can showcase all the things you’re currently doing at your current job that are “management type things”. Sorry, not the best advice… I got a manager job at my current company and it was because I was previously on the team I now manage but also because I had moved on to a higher level role that was going to be beneficial in this new position. The person who hired me felt that the “management” piece could be taught, but a lot of people are going to want that experience beforehand. Its like the chicken and the egg. Where do you get experience if everything requires experience?

  25. Helka*

    A couple resume/job-hunting questions, I haven’t felt like they’re big enough to send them into Alison, but I’d love to get some thoughts.

    #1 – I’ve been with the same company for about 5 years, in two different roles, and it’s my only office/non-retail experience. Even with plenty of accomplishments to list for the two roles I’ve held, my resume feels pretty bare with just this one company. If I leave off my (generally irrelevant) retail experience, there’s a two-year gap between my graduation from college and the beginning of my work experience. Should I leave retail on in this case? It feels embarrassing and trivializing to have it on there, but bare and underachieving if I have a gap.

    #2 – My experience is in a very niche aspect of a very large industry — think something along the lines of “attachment specialist for nonstandard white chocolate teapot handles” in the “confectionary dishware” industry. It implies a certain amount of easily transferrable knowledge, but no specific training or experience in anything but exactly the thing I do. How would you angle that if you’re looking to broaden your horizons?

    1. Helen*

      Was it more than one job? I might just put “2006-2008 various retail positions” and leave it at that.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about the resume looking bare–employers will like that you’ve stuck around at your job.

    2. littlemoose*

      I think it’s better to at least account for the work gap. Maybe just list the retail job and dates, with no additional info about accomplishments or duties, at the bottom of the resume, after your relevant work experience. That way you acknowledge that your retail job doesn’t necessary translate to experience for the professional job you’re currently seeking, but it nonetheless shows that you have been working.

      I had a retail survival job for a long time, and I wasn’t listing it on my resume when looking for professional work after graduation because I didn’t think it was relevant. I really regret this now, as I think that gap in my work history did me no favors in a competitive industry.

    3. Renee*

      #1 – I usually find that separating “relevant experience” and “supporting experience” is a good way to do that. It acknowledges that you didn’t not work for two years, but separates a more “professional” job from retail.

      1. Helka*

        I might do that! Reverse-chronological will put it on the bottom anyway, but giving it an extra divider might help make it clear that this isn’t on the same level.

    4. Mallorie, the recruiter*

      Don’t leave off your retail… even though they may seem trivial, people still learn a lot in those roles. You don’t need to use up a ton of space, but I think it hurts more than helps to leave them off. Even just showing you were employed for that time period helps erase questions. And its even better if you were at one place for a year or longer. If you had a bunch of different retail jobs, you might want to find a way to kind of combine them into just one thing, again, to just show you were employed. And if you do have SOME achievements, I’d list them (like being promoted to shift leader, winning sales contests, etc). Again, your most recent experience is the bread and butter, but if you have the room, use it!

      For your second question, focus on transferable skills for the resume and tailor your res for the jobs you apply to. Even though your experience is super niche, you can talk about it more broadly on the resume to showcase your skills for other jobs and I don’t think it will be a problem. Plus, achievements are achievements at the end of the day!

  26. Trixie*

    Re: Gov jobs. How does one go about getting experience in “gov protocols?” My mother works academic science and has exp in grants/study protocols, but this isn’t carrying over to gov jobs.

        1. Aisling*

          In my case, it was applying for and accepting a job that was a grade lower than what I should have been in. I had a degree, I took a lower-paying position just to get my foot in the door. I was able to move up within a year, but it took being willing to do it that way.

  27. Nancy Blackett*

    I was late to the thread earlier this week on strange things to include on a resume and was hoping for some advice.

    I’m a recent college grad trying to leave my first position out of school after 3 years. I’m updating my resume and was wondering if I should include an online course I took. It topically isn’t relevant to the positions I’m applying to (as much as I wish I could get a position in baseball statistics!) but served as an interesting introduction to some relevant database programs that I have then further expanded my knowledge in. I’m also hoping it serves as a bit of a conversation piece. Would this be an appropriate thing to include?

    1. Trixie*

      I lean away from including courses, online or otherwise. I’d probably include something like, “Familiar with Database Program A, B, and C.” Or say you have experience with them if you’ve actually used them.

    2. The IT Manager*

      Forget the class but mention familirity/skills in relevant database programs that I have then further expanded my knowledge.

  28. JackieJen*

    So I had a two-parter that I wanted to see if people have feedback on.

    For one, I grew up in a pretty high modesty movement. Women wore calf-length skirts and at least some ladies I knew wore head coverings (usually not full coverings, generally a kerchief over the head). I was wondering how that sort of thing would translate to an office environment. Especially the head covering – I know this was seen by many women there as a reason to not work, because they felt like they couldn’t work and still be modest.

    For two…while I’m not in that movement anymore, I still feel really uncomfortable sometimes with women’s clothing. Suit pants and pencil skirts just feel like my ass is highlighted. Is there anything I could wear to an interview that wouldn’t feel quite so exposed? I know I’m probably just being silly but it’s still uncomfortable – I wish I could wear pants loose like men do, but properly fitted women’s pants and pencil skirts make me super self conscious all day.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      1 I’m sure it depends on where you’re looking to work and what you do, but I see women in head coverings around all the time and I’m in a pretty traditional/conservative office.

      2. How about a pant suit with trouser/wide leg pants? I have a pair that always gets compliments, and they’re very loose and flowy.

      1. just laura*

        Agreed on the wide leg pant. They might not be the most cutting-edge thing in terms of fashion, but they (when part of a suit) would be perfectly reasonable for interviewing, etc.

      1. Lia*

        Seconding this. A-lines are often less clingy.

        On head coverings, I used to live in an area with a high Mennonite population, and although most of the women did not work outside the home, no one seemed to mind the coverings for the women who did. The only exception I could see is that if protective headgear was required, you’d need to ensure that it fit correctly (hard hat or whatever).

        1. JackieJen*

          I suspect part of the worry is that few people in our wider area would have recognized the sort of headcovering most women in our group wore. Typically it was just a kerchief tied over the head, something that could be easily mistaken for a fashion choice – if someone didn’t know what the purpose was I could see it being mistaken for someone just not knowing how to dress.

          1. OriginalEmma*

            It may just be my upbringing, but I grew up in an area with a sizeable Orthodox Jewish and Hassidic population. That was my introduction to more modest clothing by worn by a female population. So, I usually always evaluate “long skirt + scarf/snood/headcovering” with “religious group,” not fashion-statement, regardless of the specifics of the head covering (from Mennonite to Muslim) or skirt (fabric to denim). But that’s just me!

            1. Natalie*

              Same here, although around me it’s lots of Muslim women and not a lot of Orthodox Jewish women. Assuming I even notice a head covering I just chalk it up to religion and move on.

          2. Fawn*

            If I saw a combination of modest dress and a headcovering of any sort, I would register it as a religious or cultural choice, and immediately move on. It would not occur to me as unusual or unfashionable, and I suspect I’m not alone in that.

    2. Celeste*

      You can wear an A-line dress with a suit jacket. I’ve seen this worn by Hasidic women who dress for modesty. I think it looks nice.

    3. Helka*

      For the head coverings, I think it makes a big difference whether the modesty movement you belonged to was religious-based or not (at least if you’re in the US…). If you have religious protection, the company would have to prove that the head coverings interfered with core job functions in order to ban them. If it wasn’t a religious group, it would be more difficult, since there isn’t the same kind of protection for secular philosophies.

      As for dressing modestly for interviews… it depends a lot on what kind of job you’re interviewing for. I’m far more comfortable with longer, looser attire in general, and with a little shopping around I’ve found artsy, work-appropriate cardigans and jackets that came down past my hips with an open drape. I’ll include a link to an example in a separate comment. Obviously, if you’re interviewing for something like an attorney position, it’s not going to fly, but in a lot of business-casual environments, it would be fine.

      You also might try wearing very plain pants with a brighter, more eye-catching top — simply redirecting attention can do a lot for your sense of exposure.

    4. Cb*

      Perhaps an a-line skirt in a suiting fabric might be good. Or a suiting dress with a full skirt. It’s a bit of a tough look to pull off proportionally (especially if you’d like something less form fitting on top as well) but definitely worth a look. Often these types of skirts are made in more casual fabrics so you might need to go custom.

      In an early episode of Borgen, the prime minister wore an a-line skirt suit and it was amazing. Not finding a photo but will keep digging.

    5. Purple Scissors*

      I’ve had good luck with professional dresses paired with a complementary blazer. I find that it’s easier to find loose skirts on dresses that are at least knee-length than in suit separates. Of course, I work in a relatively casual industry so departing from a real suit isn’t seen as anything crazy.

    6. Helen*

      I used to dress modestly too and still prefer to. I have found lots of awesome “just below the knee” skirts at vintage stores. One is technically a “pencil” skirt but the only area it’s snug is my waist. The others are mostly pleated. I’ve fit in wearing them and no one has asked if I’m Amish.

      I’m not sure about suits though. Your best bet might be a pant suit with loose fitting trousers.

    7. fposte*

      A lot of this is going to depend on your field and your region, too. Here (Midwest, outside of major cities, academic workplace), you wouldn’t have much trouble. A head covering would probably just have people thinking you were Muslim or Orthodox Jewish, but I don’t think it would hugely shock them; the skirt length and clothing cut thing wouldn’t cause anybody to bat an eye. If you’re trying to be a lobbyist in DC, it’s another story.

      I think you also might consider finding a clothing style that has a style narrative and not just a modesty narrative–I have a friend, for instance, who does a ton of long and flowy because of medical stuff, but it’s just a long and flowy look–Eileen Fisher-type knits, J. Jill, etc. That’s often a lot of longer tops, too, so the top takes care of the ass-highlighting thing if the knit’s a bit clingier.

    8. OriginalEmma*

      What suggestions has Google brought up for you? There must be a blog or two written by a working woman from a high modesty environment (whether Muslim, Jewish, Mennonite, Christian Patriarchal, etc.).

      1. JackieJen*

        Unfortunately google has been low on suitable stuff that’s not trying to sell some super-expensive online stuff. Many of the suggestions I’m finding tend more towards the business casual end, whereas I’m looking at an area where suits are pretty much expected for interviews (and to be quite honest, “modest” dress would probably get you not hired).

    9. Barbara in Swampeast*

      If you are having problems with finding suitable clothing, try They have skirts and pants that have the “old fashioned” waist that is higher than is currently fashionable and don’t show off the butt as much.

    10. MaryMary*

      I’ve worked with women who wore head coverings for religious reasons. It was a non-issue (at least, no one was rude enough to make it one).

      I hope this doesn’t come off the wrong way, wearing a head covering might cause people to make less of a big deal out of non-fashionable interview wear. If you choose more generous cuts or longer skirts along with a head covering, it’s clear that your wardrobe reflects your religious beliefs, not that you’re fashion-challenged or unaware of current interview attire. At the same time, I wouldn’t discount a candidate who wasn’t wearing a skirt suit or trendy pantsuit as long as their clothing was appropriate for an interview.

    11. Gene*

      I know I’m probably just being silly but it’s still uncomfortable

      If you’re uncomfortable, that will come across in an interview. It’s important that you find something you are comfortable in and wear it out a few times so it’s not on your mind.

    12. No to Stella and Dot*

      I consider myself a pretty modest dresser (i.e. religious and I have a rather large bust that I hate ‘showcasing’). I bought my suit at The Limited a few years ago and it has wide leg trouser pants with it. I wear a button down with it and use double-stick tape to cover any ‘gaps.’ Plus, The Limited will tailor it for you for free (as least they used to – not sure about now).

    13. The IT Manager*

      JackieJen – Do you plan to wear the head covering or is that just part of your example of the modesty movement?

        1. The IT Manager*

          This makes it easier for you then. You just want to avoid the tight fitting clothes that show off more of your silhouette than you’re comfortable with.

    14. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      How about something like this? Longer A-line skirt and well-fitted (but not body-skimming) jacket?

      As for head covering, I might consider covering *more* hair, to ensure that interviewers recognize it as as religious choice rather than a fashion choice. Like this:

      It may also help to have a head covering made in a formal fabric (to match your interview suit) – tweed, wool, etc.

      1. JackieJen*

        Looking like a woman who covers is badbadbad in my field. You’d never get hired wearing that thing.

    15. voluptuousfire*

      One thing you may want to look into are skater dresses. They usually nip in at the waist and flare out at the hips. It covers your hips and if you find one in a suiting material with a slightly longer skirt, you should be fine.

    16. Natalie*

      For suits, what about a longer jacket so you don’t feel quite so much like your butt is center stage?

    17. Anonsie*

      I’m not sure whether you’re still interested in fitting the modesty standards or just providing your background to explain why you are uncomfortable in regular suits, but I’m taking it at the latter. In that case, the only way to get around this is practice, and by that I mean wearing the clothes. Wear fitted pants when you’re running errands or something where you’re free to throw in the towel and go home if you change your mind. Try to get comfortable in them before it’s important for you to wear them. It definitely takes time but I would recommend it over trying to work around wearing normal pants forever.

      That’s what I had to do, at least. There was a long period of going a round feeling like everyone in the world was looking directly at me but now I’m wearing whatever and it feels fine, and boy is that an upgrade.

      The thing about going outside the norm for modest clothes is that the regular clothes don’t actually draw attention to your body– but the more modest selections will because they’re unusual, they make you stand out more. If your goal is to prevent attracting attention to the body under the clothes, realistically wearing the same things as everyone else is the best way to do that.

      1. JackieJen*

        The latter, yes. It’s extra confusing because I’m still a religious woman and I do still want to be modest. But I feel like I’m caught between the “long skirts and headcovering” crowd and the “yoga pants and a tank top” crowd, and I don’t really belong to either. I think where I want to be is where things look modest and downplayed, but not so much that it stands out.

        1. Natalie*

          Properly fitting business pants are definitely not in the “yoga pants and tank top” category, although I appreciate they might feel like that since they’re so different from how you grew up.

          In general, if you follow the dress codes of conservative industries (think law or investment banking) you’ll be very modestly dressed but still within more normative styles.

        2. Anonsie*

          I agree with Natalie that regular conservative business clothing is quite modest (in fact I would go so far as to say modesty is a tenant of businesswear) with generous cuts typically meant to prevent the shape of your bottom or bust from being noticeable. The whole point is so it’s the person inside the clothes that gets noticed and the clothes aren’t even on the radar. They feel like they’re drawing attention since they are more fitted in the cut than you are accustomed to, though, which is why there’s an acclimation period.

        3. Observer*

          If you are in NYC, look at where Orthodox Women shop, because a lot of the stuff will work well in office environments. The landsend cardigans are really nice (and I tend to buy the overstocks, so I’m not spending an arm and a leg.) They also have some nice skirts, but a lot of them are dry clean only, which I hate.

        4. misspiggy*

          I have to make similar choices because health issues mean I can’t handle tight clothing. I go for dark polyester panelled midi skirts with a matching colour suit jacket. The skirts drape enough to look interview-smart, but are flarey enough that no-one can see your actual body shape except for a bit of upper hip, which is covered by the jacket.

      2. TL -*

        Yes to this – there’s a lot of good suggestions here but it sounds like you’re in a field where there’s a high emphasis placed on look and in that case – well, you’ve just got to get used to looking like someone they want to hire.

        There’s a lot that’s in between tank tops/yoga pants* and super modest wear, but it sounds like you’re still at a point where everything that’s not super modest feels tank top/yoga pants and if you’re interested in dressing at the in-between point, you should work on getting a better sense of the nuances between the two examples.

        *Also, can I just say that this does not strike me as a super immodest outfit? I wouldn’t blink an eye at seeing someone dressed in this (unless it was in a super professional setting, and even then it would be the lack of professional, not the reveal!). You don’t have to wear it, but I bet most people would not feel that such an outfit was deliberately for the purpose of drawing attention to bust/butt area.

        1. JackieJen*

          I’m not sure how much if it is actually a high emphasis placed on looks – you wear suits to interviews but outside of that it’s pretty casual. The thing is a lot of people in my field tend to presume that conservative religious person equals judgmental bigot. So you might not get hired because people are worried you’re going to cause problems.

          1. TL -*

            That sucks. But if it’s not the hill you want to die on, I’d take a look at ask the options here and then just wear the pants/skirt you find until you’re comfortable in then for the interview (and then never wear them again if you want.)

        2. JackieJen*

          Oh, I should clarify on the examples – it’s more that I feel like I’ve got no one to compare notes with irl that respects my views. I know a bunch of super conservative people that wear the very very modest stuff, and a lot of stuff that looks really outdated or odd. And then I know people who think the whole idea of modesty is oppressive and I shouldn’t even be considering it. What I’m not finding is people who can help me look relatively modest without wearing those awful jumpers and prairies dresses!

          1. Salyan*

            Yeah, that’s tough when you feel like you’re the only one with your views. Keep looking for those like-minded friends. :)
            For my part, as someone who wears long skirts for modesty (but not headcoverings), it is definitely possible to look professional while still feeling modest – especially now that skirts seem to be making a come-back in the fashion world! My favorite ‘power’ outfits match a quality skirt with nice lines with a nice blazer/jacket and accessories. Who says you have to wear pants and pencil skirts to be professional?

      3. Observer*

        Anonsie, I have to disagree with you. In a sense, more modest clothes do draw attention – at first – because they are different. But the other clothes to keep focus on a woman’s curvier bits. This is exactly what they are intended to do. Wearing those clothes does nothing to keep attention of your body – it just makes it easier for anyone who wants a good look.

    18. BananaPants*

      A suit with wide leg trousers? If they’re cut correctly, they won’t look sloppy or baggy.

    19. Observer*

      As part of a “high modesty movement” myself, I can tell you that mostly it’s not an issue. Kerchiefs can be a bit of a head scratcher for many people, but a wig or wig plus something over that mostly goes uncommented on where I’ve worked.

      As for what to wear: Pencil skirts are not too bad IF you get one that doesn’t fit too closely and you wear a good slip underneath. Lined skirts are better as well. Avoid really drapey fabrics, whatever style you wear. Good rule of thumb: if you can see panty lines, don’t get it. Also, for many women a-line skirts work well. Combining that with a blazer or cardigan that falls well below the waist works well.

    20. Andrea*

      Any chance you can afford a tailor or seamstress? It you take clothes with tags on they can advise on the fabric and how to adjust the cut to be more modest. I often buy suits a bit big and then tailor because I prefer a straighter line from my hips/rear to the ground. Usually fuller fabric (a thicker “hand”) in a sturdy fabric with some drape (often wool). Also, linings or “split-slips” will help with feeling modest under both skirts and pants partly because of the increased coverage and partly because they will really help have the fabric fall in a way that follows modest lines even on a more modern suit.

    21. beckythetechie*

      Palazzo pants?

      There are business suitable skirts out there that are neither terribly short nor closely fitted, but they can be difficult to find given the current trend to short with flare or pencil skirts. I’ve had luck finding them at Sears, JC Penny, and Bon Ton, but I’m usually standing next to 70 year old women when I do. The catch for me is that I’m both very tall and very curvy, so I have to do a lot of my own alterations anyway; starting from good quality makes getting the fit you want out of off-the-rack clothing easier.

    22. Mackenzie*

      I somehow lucked into finding a long skirt that’s sort of a tulip shape (widens faster below the knee than above it, but not pencil-skirt-ish) and matches my suit jacket wonderfully, so I wear that combination for job interviews. At some point, I think I will sew myself a long-skirted suit though. Really, it’s finding shirts for with the suit that have all the buttons that’s the problem.

      I do understand the women in your old environment, though. I started covering full time a year and a half ago, and I don’t know if I would be taken seriously in a job interview. My cover is very similar to some midwest Amish ones (except that I made it to not cover my ears), and I am often asked by strangers whether I’m Amish, and I work in the tech industry.

  29. Christy*

    I got a really great work compliment! I’m currently on a temporary assignment to another office, and people keep advocating that they hire me full time. I’m regularly a Grade X, and I’m temporarily at Grade X+1. Yesterday, I found out that instead of trying to hire me at Grade X+1, the big boss (!) who is interested in hiring me (!) wondered if she could hire me at Grade X+2! X+2 would be a nearly 50% raise from X. (Holy crap.)

    She won’t be able to hire me at Grade X+2, but she COULD post as Grade X+1/X+2 and then promote after a year. (How did I find that out? A coworker who has been singing my praises told me!) I’m like ecstatic.

    1. Blue_eyes*

      Awesome! Congrats! Love hearing about people who are doing great work and being rewarded for it.

  30. Elkay*

    Just witnessed a fantastic example of why those tiles that show your most visited websites are a bad idea. Sales pitch and the guy opened a new tab to show in the middle of it a dating site. So if you’re going to browse dating sites on your work computer use private/incognito browsing because nosy people like me will look at your most visited tabs (more interesting than the sales pitch).

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      My co-worker was given a recycled lap top and did a search on it form a reporting tool / software called Crystal, what they found was a number of pictures of a naked woman called Crystal.

      The guy who’s laptop it was still worked in the office, we teased him so much about it for ages.

    2. it happens*

      Awesome! And if you’re making a presentation with your work laptop, don’t have a scanty vacay picture as your desktop background. (yup, seen this, too)

      1. Dmented Kitty*

        Oh jeez!

        Good thing I’m a bit self-conscious, I never would dare to use any self-portrait pictures as my wallpaper — work or home computer. I’d bristle if I boot up my computer and I see my huge face staring at me when I log in. Hissssss! ** Crawls under the table. **

        I only pick still life for my wallpaper. Or cats.

        1. Revanche*

          My profile photo is still the only picture file in my Win8 file tile thing and every time I accidentally open it my face pops out and I have the same reaction. *kkkssssss* I advocate food backgrounds and screensavers.

  31. HeyNonnyNonny*

    So I’m starting keeping track of the annoying conversations my work-neighbors have. Highlights of this week:

    •A discussion if “perquisites” was a word. After a minute, someone suggested Googling it. No one did. The “discussion” went on for 10 more minutes, mostly them just repeating the word over and over and over.
    •The word “diarrhea” at least 6 times in as many minutes. Accompanied by childish squealing of “eew, don’t say that!”
    •“Sex studies? Like how to stick it in?”

    Writing down how ridiculous it is makes it much easier to cope. Anyone else have ridiculous things they overhear?

    1. Helka*

      Yesterday, one of my coworkers ranting about how her son wanted to learn to play the viola — apparently she found this ridiculous, although she didn’t really have any reason beyond “Viola? Really? Who wants to play viola?”

    2. Anie*

      HA! Yes. The other day the IT guy was helping the lady in the cube behind me. I over heard him say, “Don’t worry, I won’t throw you in the wood for the sharks.” He then paused and said thoughtfully, “I think I meant bears. There’s no such thing as a land-shark.”

      I wanted to shout, “Thank you for clarifying!!”

    3. attornaut*

      If it makes you feel better, I can hear basically everything my work neighbors say and 95% of it is vicious, toxic, horrible things about other people in the office, including me. I would definitely prefer ridiculousness.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Oh, that sucks attornaut. You’re right, as much as I sometimes wish they weren’t quite so distracting, it could be so much worse. Hope your toxic neighbors get the boot (or at least get moved) so you don’t have to deal with that!

    4. Jennifer*

      Everything about the health aliments of my cube neighbor. And her husband. And her cat. You don’t want to know the TMI, suffice it to say the contents of anyone’s stool or the condition of their toenails is not acceptable public conversation.

    5. Rebecca*

      Haha, we have an open office format and one of my coworkers says the weirdest things, sometimes to us and sometimes on the phone. My neighbor and I regularly email each other asking, “Did you hear what she just said?!”

      A few gems:
      – She’s not a very computer-literate person. Someone was showing her how to do a shortcut for Excel and she couldn’t get it. She finally said, “I need a new keyboard.” Then proceeded to call IT and ask for a new keyboard. This did not fix the problem. :)
      – On the phone with one of her kids: “Well, now you know that you can’t leave food in your car overnight, especially with milk, and then eat it.” Um, her kids are 27 and 30.
      – We heard ALL about her daughter’s wedding leading up to the event. Every call with a vendor, her daughter, her family members. We could recite the entire timeline, what time people had to be various places, what was on the menu. OMG, we were so tired of it.
      – Daily weather updates.

  32. This is Me Not Being Me*

    So. Our company got bought by one of our biggest competitors.

    They are stopping new sales of an entire product line – they wanted the customers, not the product. It will be supported for existing customers and contracts, so the jobs aren’t vanishing right away. Not all of them. But some of them will and more will go.

    And I work on that product line.

    I know what my next steps need to be, but I could use some well-wishes or “you will get through this” type encouragement.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I’m so sorry. A lot of times these things end up being forcing mechanisms to bring about good changes in the long run, but it really sucks in the meantime.

      Office Depot, by chance?

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        I had been questioning whether I should look at moving on. I landed on the “no, I like what I am doing and where my career path is headed”.

        So, now I no longer like where my career path is headed. Swift kick in the pants, received.

        And no; much smaller. Oddly comforting (and yet not) to realize that it plays out similarly so much that an easy recognition of another such situation is possible, though.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The more advanced notice we get the more time we have to prepare. You will land okay- keep your courage up and keep pushing forward.

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        True! I am very grateful to know now. We also have a firm date for the earliest (and latest) point that the first round of adjustments to staffing could occur. It is not as far in the future as I would like but it is far enough in the future to give us time to prepare and ramp up. And knowing we have a short window means we can at least go in to work until then knowing that we need not worry about it happening on any other day. And once the window passes, at least they’re not planning to do rolling cuts. That’s more stability than you’re usually guaranteed in this sort of thing, as I understand it.

    3. This is Me Not Being Me*

      Thanks, everyone. Fingers crossed! I’m trying to update my resume. The last time I job-hunted I hadn’t yet found Ask A Manager, so it needs some clean-up.

      However, how do you list a multi-year stint at one company at which you held five titles, when the company name changed (due to acquisition) in the middle of title #3, then changed back (before title #4 was achieved), then changed again (just now when we were acquired) while under title #5?

      These titles are all increasing levels of seniority/skill of the same career path. The first two logically share a lot of duties, the middle and later ones start to differentiate, but I’m not sure how to make this look graceful on a resume. Listing the company names separately makes it look like I jumped about when in fact I have a long singular tenure. Listing them bunched up seems to mean listing the positions separately, though, and that seems odd in the case of some roles.

      Do I use a mixed format? In terms of what logically goes together, that makes the most sense – but it looks untidy to me.

      For example:

      Deep Space Chocolate Teapots Inc (stardate 2231.2-present)
      Enterprise Chocolate Teapots (stardate start 2229-2231.2)
      Senior Teapot Mold Designer and Engineer
      * details go here

      Enterprise Chocolate Teapots (stardate 2228-2229)
      Teapot Mold Designer and Engineer
      * details go here

      Enterprise Chocolate Teapots (stardate 2225-2226, 2227-2228)
      Ferengi Ltd. Chocolate Teapots and Maple Sugar Baskets (stardate 2226-2227)
      Senior Teapot Mold Engineer
      * details go here

      Enterprise Chocolate Teapots
      Teapot Mold Engineer (Stardate 2225-2226)
      Jr. Teapot Mold Engineer (Stardate 2224-2226)
      * details go here

      …and of course, responsibilities of each of the positions include, in part, the responsibilities of the position before it. (But the “what I did better than others in the same position might” talking points do change with time, since what’s excelling for a Jr. Teapot Mold Engineer is firmly expected of a Sr. Mold Designer and Engineer.)

      1. This is Me Not Being Me*

        I have definitely determined one thing from this example: Writing about chocolate teapots makes me hungry for sweets.

        Also, I really dislike the look of both ways of lumping things together. :(

        Maybe I just need to format it every possible way and see how it looks to me when filled in.

        1. Judy*

          We talked about multiple positions with one company above, I’d put this similarly…

          ((BOLD)) Teapots LTD (formerly Enterprise Teapots, formerly Deep Space Teapots) (2007-Present)
          ((Italics)) Senior Mold and Design Engineer (2012-present)

          ((Italics)) Mold and Design Engineer (2011-2012)


          Where you have 2 title levels (on mine bold and italics), one for the company and one for the job. Put dates on both the company and the jobs. Put the current name of the company with the former names in the parentheses. Don’t worry about the dates of the name changes.

  33. LizzyP*

    Just wondering if this is a new trend as I am seeing something and in talking to a few friends they are seeing the same thing…

    to keep this brief, I just started a new assignment as a contractor and am being paid hourly for my work. The other day we had an important email that i sent out, around some issues with a vendor who is not doing their job, and so after much discussion I sent this before I left for the day. But before I walked out someone else on the email told me there was already a reply pushing back on my attempt to get things moving, basically.

    So I logged into my email when I got on the train and replied to my two managers that I was looking forward to their direction. And the reply I got was “we pay you hourly, please don’t log on when you are off”… which is fine, but this was a special circumstance and I certainly don’t make a habit of it. Wasn’t going to charge them for the time to check email and write a one line reply.

    When I talked to other people they told me that they are seeing a trend in this, don’t do more than you are asked, don’t stay late… it’s the opposite of what I was always taught… is this the new way to be?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      It’s smart of them. They’re covering their asses legally, because even though you say you wouldn’t charge them for it, they’re still potentially legally obligated to pay you.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Yes. This is what I am told. Even if there is a fire to put out, I have to get written approval to stay late, and then it’s counted as overtime. I adore it, because everyone knows they won’t get a response from me outside of my hours, and I don’t have to stress about work when I’m not there.

      2. Jazzy Red*

        Yeah, this.

        My manager wouldn’t even let me clear a paper jam in the copy machine because I had just clocked out (and she didn’t know how to clear it, either. I suppose she got another secretary to help her.)

        This is one of those “silly” things where TPTB have a very good reason for doing.

    2. Kelly L.*

      I don’t think it’s a new way to be, in general–if anything, I feel like there’s an opposite trend of expecting people to be on call when they’re off the clock and not getting paid. I suspect your managers might be cheap and don’t want to pay any more than they have to for your contracting services.

    3. The IT Manager*

      it’s the opposite of what I was always taught

      Who taught you this? Because the rules are different for exempt (from overtime) and non-exempt employees. So the rules are not necessarily wrong, but they apply to different categories differently.

      1. Judy*

        I’d also expect that even if you’re doing “exempt work”, the contract that goes with a contractor has terms in it about overtime. Your contract house is probably interested in making sure that they’re paid for all the time you’re working.

    4. edj3*

      I’m self employed as a consultant and I charge by the hour. I’m very careful about the hours worked and charged and I don’t work overtime unless the client specifically requests it or I’ve gone to the client with an updated timeline for the project that includes overtime.

      So at the end of the work day, I’m tools down entirely. No email, no voice mail, nothing.

      That shows my clients that I pay attention to the work load and to their budget concerns. You aren’t being a slacker in the least if you do this, you are paying attention to the bottom line.

    5. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      It’s a thing. We’re doing the same thing.

      Nobody wants the $$$ cost that goes with being on the wrong side of non-exempt workers not being compensated for their work time.

      The only feedback I’ve gotten from non-exempt employees on this is unhappiness, but there’s nothing we can do it about it other than authorize extra hours as needed. That’s a lot less freedom than people want to make their own choices like check email, catch up on work for a few minutes, clean up for the next day for half an hour but, that’s how it is.

    6. LizzyP*

      When I did contact work in the past the focus was the work, getting the work done, not leaving for the day until everything was completed.

      I took this assignment and they talked about the availability for overtime. Because this is around a large event in the fall I had to commit to being available in the summer, no vacation after June 1st. But once I was on site I was told even though I’m scheduled for 40 hours I have to take one hour unpaid lunch and even my agency was surprised that after their huge concern with overtime availability I work a 35 hour work week and even 30 minutes over has to be approved (which is still not overtime).

      Not used to this at all but glad to see I’m not alone. Guess I need to adjust but I wish they had been clear about their time constraints from the beginning. I commute a few hours a day, it would have been nice to know going in they were so rigid.

  34. W*

    How can I tell my supervisor nicely she is being nitpicky and micromanages too much in our upcoming review? This is a chance for me to communicate how I feel and work out better ways to improve our professional communication. My supervisor is very nice but a very big perfectionist and doesn’t like it when things are out of place. I feel like I have to notify her of everything or everywhere I’m going. I believe my communication skills are fine as I don’t withhold information or anything. I just feel like she’s asking me to notify her of everything.

    In my last review, which was shortly after I joined, my supervisor told me I needed to work on my communication skills just because I didn’t notify her when I took some work off her desk one time. She was in a meeting until after my day was over at the time so I wasn’t going to interrupt her meeting and she already told me to move on to that work. The next day, she told me I should’ve let her or someone else know. In another instance, I was using a loud tape gun in an empty office so not to disturb others. I’ve done it in that office before but my supervisor still told me I should’ve notified her that I would be in the spare office before I let so she knows where I am.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Frame it as a question, not a complaint. Ask her if she trusts you and has confidence in your ability to do the job, because you’ve noticed that she reminds you a lot about details (or whatever it is she’s doing) and you’re concerned she doesn’t trust you.

      1. W*

        That’s a good idea. I don’t think she distrusts me, as she’s acknowledged the quality of my work. But this way she can be more aware of how she comes across with all these reminders.

    2. GOG11*

      This is something I’d like to address with my supervisor because it leads to delays – I end up having to wait on her replies to move forward, so I have periods of very little work followed by periods of DOING ALL THE WORK. If it causes delays in your work, perhaps you could address it from that angle? I’m not sure about the wording, though, or if it applies to other areas of your work (it seems like this might not work for the examples you’ve provided so far).

      1. Revanche*

        I’ve addressed micromanaging with bosses before by explaining that I have a system (and explaining the system) of how I manage specific tasks, then asked if they were satisfied that they didn’t need to nag me about work or if there was something specific they were looking for when they followed up 30x per task or project. For example, was I moving too slowly or did they want feedback as I worked on them?

        Once I made it clear that the nagging was both slowing me down and established that on the boss’s side it was nothing more than a bad habit we agreed that the routine nagging would stop and we would have regular checkups and reporting at reasonable intervals. Perhaps framing it similarly would help?:
        I work best like X. Is there something more/different you need me to incorporate in that workflow so you can be confident I’m getting things done the way you’re looking for them to be done? Because, at the moment, I’m finding that Y (your style) is at odds with how I work best and I’d like to make sure we’re communicating enough while allowing me to be most efficient.

  35. A.K.*

    I’m reading through applications for the first hire that I’m in charge of selecting, and dear lord are there some terrible cover letters out there. Literally less than 10% of people bother to express anything about why they want to work at our (small, niche, very specific, mission-driven) organization. It’s astonishing.

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      Ouch! If it’s any consolation, it sucks to be on the other side, too. I keep submitting cover letters with reasons why I’d like to work there and details about my experience and all the AAM-approved stuff, and nothing.

      There should be a job site that matches good employers who care about things like cover letters with good employees who write them.

    2. Lady Bug*

      Cover letters are the bane of my existence. I just sit there for hours attempting to write why I’m great for the position, feel like a pretenious jerk, and just send something highlighting my experience. I’ve read all the AAM advice, but just can’t do it! Even expressing why I want to work for your organization comes off sounding fake to me.

      1. A.K.*

        I don’t even need it to be all that original or in depth. Simply “I’d love to work for your organization because I’ve always been passionate about ” would be good. It’s not a creative writing position so it doesn’t need to be eloquent. Just state facts. “I like chocolate teapots. I like making chocolate teapots. I’m good at making dark chocolate teapots and I like learning new things. For these reasons, I am interested in your milk chocolate teapot position.” I just need to know that you care even a little bit and that you aren’t just auto-applying to everything you see online, because if you are, you will hate this job.

      2. Jennifer*

        I second that. And sometimes you’re not applying because you love the org or what they do, but because they have an admin assistant job open and you need one. So it’s hard to rave about the awesomeness of …any of it.

      3. GOG11*

        There was a recent AAM post about thinking of cover letters (and other application materials…and the interview process) as a way of helping the hiring manager determine your fit for the role (and vice versa) rather than selling yourself as a perfect candidate. Maybe thinking of it in those terms would help?

    3. Blue_eyes*

      Look at it this way, they’re making your job easier because you can immediately whittle it down to less than 10%.

    4. Revanche*

      Amen. I hate writing them too but as an HM, all I need to know is that you want THIS job and why you’d be a good fit. Not looking for eloquence, selling yourself, or anytjing creative at all. I just need some basic evidence you know what you’re applying to and actually mean it. Unlike the applicant who was truly interested in the position as a lab tech…and the job had nothing to do with labs.

      I had so many bad letters (75% of the pool!!) my last hiring round, I had a bit of a rant (if links are OK:

      1. Kyrielle*

        Hee. I loved the people who applied to work on our Computer Aided Dispatch system touting their experience in Computer Aided Design and so on…yeah, we spelled it out in the job ad once at the start, then abbreviated, and clearly they keyword-hit on ‘CAD’ and didn’t even really read the ad….

  36. Rachael*

    Career change question! I am interested in getting into sales, but don’t really know anyone who has worked in sales. If anyone here works in sales, how do you like it? One thing I am concerned is that many people have described sales as a “frat bro” culture, and I am a woman who has never been in a frat or sorority… I just like the idea of working on a cool product and talking to people about it and working together. Any advice about books to read or places to look for jobs or guidance would be much appreciated!

    1. Snowglobe*

      I’ve worked in sales and hated it, but that’s because I’m an introvert. I work in a male-dominated field, but the best sales person I ever worked with was a woman, so don’t let that stop you. The key is that you need to like talking to people, you need to listen well, and have a problem-solving approach with your clients.

      1. Rachael*

        Thank you! I am looking to get into sales because I am more of an extrovert and think it would play better to my skills that Project Management, which is currently what I am doing. Thanks!

        1. Blue_eyes*

          That’s interesting because I’m also an extrovert, but I actually think I would love Project Management and sales is the last thing I would want to do. While I’m chatty, friendly, and enjoy being around people, trying to convince people to do what I want (aka buy my product) is not one of my skills.

    2. Book Person*

      I love it! I fell into sales somewhat by accident, but found it worked well for me. I’m introverted, so it takes a lot out of me energy-wise, but I’ve built great relationships through regular client visits. I haven’t had any frat bro encounters–I wouldn’t stay in the job otherwise.

      Important things: working for a great company, ample vacation time in down periods to compensate for work travel and overtime, and actually liking the thing you’re selling. If you can find a sales job that isn’t solely paid on comission, so much the better.

    3. Otter box*

      I currently work as a support rep in a pretty aggressive retail sales environment (just got a job in a TOTALLY different field, though, and I cannot wait to move on!). I’ve been there a little over 3 years, and in my experience a lot of our best sales reps have been women, but there is definitely a serious “good old boys” culture. At my current store, for example, I was hired as a transfer back in early 2013, and since I have joined they have hired SIXTEEN men and no women, except for our new manager who was brought on a couple weeks ago. It might just be the particular place I work, but some subtle sexism is there. For example, several months ago my manager encouraged me to look into moving into a sales role, and when I decided to take him up on the offer when we were significantly understaffed, he backtracked and told me he didn’t think I could emotionally handle working with customers and that he wouldn’t promote me until I was “ready for success.” I even received an AUTO REJECTION from the company for the sales position I applied to. Um. Then why the big talk before?

      How enjoyable sales is really does depend on your company’s culture and your management (neither of which have been great in my case). If sales is something you think you’d enjoy and be good at, then I think you should go for it! My experience obviously isn’t everyone’s experience. Just maybe be prepared for the possibility (not a guarantee though, by any stretch!) of some sexism creeping into your workplace.

      Also, just today I had two customers in a row call me a “doll.” So there’s that, too.

  37. Golden Yeti*

    A coworker was privately venting to me this week about some understandable frustrations, and later sent me an e-mail to apologize, saying it was unprofessional.

    This got me wondering: obvious things aside (doing it publicly, slandering character, etc.), is it possible to vent unprofessionally if it’s just privately venting to a trusted coworker?

    1. Iro*

      I think in general venting at work, even to a trusted co-worker, is unprofessional because you never know who can overhear you and it’s usually not condusive to improving the situation.

    2. fposte*

      I disagree with Iro in that I think venting isn’t automatically unprofessional, but it’s not the most professional of habits to develop. I say as somebody a bit inclined to do so myself. I think the very term “venting” misleadingly makes it sound like it was blowing off some steam that had to be blown off, and that’s not really how it works. Most of the time if you slept on it you wouldn’t feel the same urge to kvetch to somebody, or you could find a more appropriate listener (like your spouse–or your cat. They listen very attentively when you have a can in your hands).

    3. MaryMary*

      When I first became a manager, someone advised me to “vent up.” Everyone has bad days, everyone needs to let off steam about crazy customers or that our office PCs have a habit of randomly restarting or how frustrating this new re-org is. But people put extra weight on what a manager is saying, even if they’re not your direct report. And you can look really bad as a manager if you’re bad mouthing a client or a corporate initiative. So when I need to vent, I vent to my peers or folks a notch or two up. Maybe your coworker felt you weren’t an appropriate audience (nothing against you personally, more so your position)?

    4. Jazzy Red*

      I think your coworker meant is was unprofessional to vent to you, another worker. It’s better to vent about work to someone you don’t work with. Sometimes you get a different perspective on it, other times you just want to get it off your chest but not into the office grapevine. As one of the other posters said, you don’t know who else might overhear it.

  38. Helen*

    Do any of you have experience working two part-time jobs? Is it any easier getting a PT job than a FT job?

    If I don’t find FT work within a couple months, I think I’ll start applying to PT jobs with the hope of getting two that will add up to around 40 hours. To be honest, I might actually like the variety, but is it a huge pain? Is it even possible to get two part time jobs in traditional M-F hours?

    1. Ali*

      I am thinking of doing this soon too, but mainly because I’m on thin ice at my current job. I can’t seem to find any full-time either. A lot of listings for jobs in my field are part-time/temp and internships.

      1. Helen*

        Yeah, the fields I’m interested in seem to have a disproportionate number of PT jobs. I’m thinking even if I can only get one at least it’ll help me get more experience in the field (I’m making a career change back to a previous field).

        Best wishes to you.

    2. Cautionary tail*

      At one point in life I had three jobs. Since all of them had set hours I was able to manage it, but if you are looking at part-time jobs where they post a schedule every week or two then you are setting yourself up for failure when both places schedule you for the same time.

      Even if one has set hours and the other doesn’t the same overlap can occur. Based on personal experience by others very close to me, having the company that does weekly scheduling know when you are unavailable is laughable since they’ll schedule anyway if they have a need.

    3. Sunflower*

      It’s defintely easier i think to get a part time job over full time. A lot of companies will start employees part-time as almost a probationary phase. If they like you, they’ll bring you on full time.

      Scheduling them both is a little harder. When I worked part time in an office, my hours were scheduled and I could switch them up a bit if I needed to. Some jobs vary their hours so it makes it a little harder to juggle.

      A lot of part time work lists the hours on the job posting or the hours are flexible. I would apply for jobs and upfront ask about the hours. For you, it might make sense to work 1 job 3 days a week and another 2 days. Working 4 hours a day at each might be more difficult. Regardless, it’s defibrely possible and I would recommend going for it

    4. Jean*

      How about _taking- one part-time job (as an employee) and _making_ another (as a freelancer, hourly, entrepreneur, etc.)? Sometimes an odd job schedule is sufficiently flexible to wrap around another part-time position with more rigid scheduling. Depending on your skills and the nearby job marketplace, you could offer either professional services (consulting or doing research, freelance editing, proofreading, or accounting) or domestic assistance (running errands; doing light housekeeping; helping someone declutter, downsize, or move; or providing occasional child or elder care or companionship). The “second boss” would have to be willing and able to revise your working hours whenever your “first boss” varied your work schedule.

      I don’t mean to chatter blithely or dismissively about having only a part-time income until the second job is up and running! Combining two part-time positions also requires courage, self-discipline, time management skills and the ability to juggle multiple obligations over time and space.

      Disclaimer: I’m trying to do this myself and find it very hard, slow going to add self-directed entrepreneurial activity to my already-full portfolio of working part-time, providing various family members with varying levels of emotional and logistical support, and safeguarding my own mental and physical health. If I didn’t really want the extra income, I’d abandon the idea entirely! (We’re meeting present needs with our present income. I’m trying to stockpile some resources for future situations.)

    5. Gwen*

      It’s a huge pain. I worked two permanent part time jobs (one 9:00-1:00 and one 1:30-5:30) for more than a year, and though the variety was interesting, it became really draining. You generally don’t get any benefits (luckily I was still able to be on my parent’s insurance at the time), little or no PTO. It’s a hassle to try to rearrange your schedule if you need to be at a meeting or an event outside your usual time, trying to make sure you still meet your hours at both jobs. And at least for me, although everyone at both jobs was very nice, I never REALLY felt like I was part of the group until I started one full time. You just miss so many interactions and celebrations as a part-timer, and I feel like people in general don’t think of you the same way. (The worst part, of course, was all the times I’d come in to my second job to an email about treats in the kitchen which were all gone by the time I saw it!)

    6. GOG11*

      My current role is a less prestigious one than one of my PT jobs was but is full time and has benefits…before that, all of my work experience involves two and three PT jobs (and one period of a full time job and a PT job).

      I found that the longer I worked at a certain place, the easier it was to get the hours I wanted and to have the same schedule week after week. This made scheduling MUCH easier. I worked Tuesday through Sunday with Monday off (I was working 50ish hours per week). Also, I think PT jobs that require certain skills may provide better options than something like retail where you could end up working any hours the store’s open and where entry-level employees are expected to have a relatively high level of turnover.

      I did find that I developed time management and project management skills from juggling different positions with vastly different duties (retail and social services, for example).

      I hope you’re able to find some options that are a good fit for you.

      1. GOG11*

        **re current job – I meant that I opted for piecing together part time work until my current role, which I chose for the benefits (paid time off, sick time, etc.), not necessarily the hours or anything else one could associate with PT work.

    7. Revanche*

      I did it successfully some time ago but it was a bit complicated and I think only worked because the jobs weren’t all the same type. I did one retail (worked the most hours there and it was shift work but they were good about letting me have all the shifts I wanted because no one else liked them), one teaching center thing that catered to young adults and then private tutoring and childcare for a young child. They were all sufficiently different and i had more control over the hours so that I didn’t have the problem of opposing or overlapping schedules that you would with more than one retail type job.

      I can’t say it was much better or worse than one full time job except there were more logistics.

    1. Cautionary tail*

      I’m on a PC using Firefox 35.0.1 and I just got an “Error 1001 Access denied” message. “The owner of this website ( has banned your access based on your browser signature. (1b4893a7d8e50926-mh5).”

      I screenprinted the error and then refreshed the screen and it’s been working normally ever since.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I have been getting a lot of 508 (site not available errors) since yesterday. Refresh and still nothing. Then I just wait a bit and try again later. Worked eventually.

    2. Claire (Scotland)*