open thread – September 11, 2015

by Alison Green on September 11, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,405 comments }

{ 1,405 comments… read them below }

  1. BRR*

    What questions do you ask when you’re interviewing with somebody from HR but aren’t interviewing for an HR position? I always struggle to think of what to ask because my questions tend to be more specific towards the position.

    1. A Jane*

      Ask questions about the company such as culture, attrition. It’s fine to ask about the role too, they will tell you if they don’t know the answers.

    2. CJ*

      I would ask about culture, fit and the HR department. What are the top three things employees would say they liked (or disliked) about the company? How does the company handle conflicts between employees? What do you think the goals/purpose of HR are? These could all be pretty telling answers.

      2. Lizzie's Patronus*

        This is what I go with too, how long have you been with the company and what do you like most about working here are two of my go tos. What does the company value in it’s employees? General questions like that. GL!

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      I was going to ask this today! I just had a phone screen with HR (for a non-HR position) and I figured they wouldn’t know specific details of the position so I struggled to find questions to ask. I ended up asking about the culture, their growth, why the position was open (new or someone leaving) and who the position reported to.

    4. Meg Murry*

      I’ve found “what is your favorite thing about working here at MegaCorp?” Or “what initially drew you to MegaCorp and what keeps you here?” is a good question to ask just about anyone at any level during an interview – it looks thoughtful, gives people a chance to talk about themselves (which a lot of people like) and can tell you a lot about the culture or give you something to ask a followup question about – for instance, if they say they love the wellness benefit of getting $X off for a gym pass you can ask about that, if they mention work-life balance you can ask about flextime or typical hours, if they mention loving the people you can ask about the culture and whether its a super social place with lots of “group bonding”, etc?

    5. HR Recruiter*

      Any questions that aren’t too job specific are fine. I usually get asked about parking (downtown location), benefits, questions about the company, generic job questions and duties, scheduling/shifts, culture, etc. The questions that I or HR usually don’t know the answers to are really, really specific questions only relevant to that job. Yesterday I had an applicant ask me detailed questions about how our fire panel worked. It was a relevant question for the position but I have no idea how the panel works, I just know its one of the responsibilities for this job.

    6. KJR*

      To piggyback onto all of the above suggestions, always ask about turnover. You can often tell a lot about employee satisfaction by how long people stick around. And definitely ask why the position is open.

    7. Stephanie*

      I think it’s fine to ask about the role (provided it’s not something crazy specific no HR generalist would know). They’ll just tell you they don’t know. And a really good one will follow up or direct you to someone who knows.

      But keep in mind, this is an initial screen. You don’t need to get into the specifics of teapot glazing coefficients or anything. (Er, I’ve learned the hard way about getting too into the weeds in an HR phone screen.)

    8. SnowWhite*

      Culture, structure, objectives and how staff are supported/managed to achieve those objectives.,,

      Maybe managed is the wrong word – guided maybe?

    9. TootsNYC*

      I don’t actually -ask- the HR person about the specifics of the job, but I try to sneak them in this way:
      “Well, I’ll probably need to speak to the hiring manager to answer my questions about things like how much budget there is to hire freelancers, what the normal pacing of a crunch time is, how the communications work between this department and the others in the group.
      “So I guess my questions for you are more company specific: ….”

      This way, when the hiring manager says, “how was the interview?” the HR person can say, “The candidate is focused on the right things.”

      I figure that I’m demonstrating my knowledge of the job and its nuances, which is always good.

  2. Elkay*

    Anyone got any tips for how to write feedback on colleagues you don’t interact with much? These are all team-mates (we share a manager) but I’m in my first year in the role so short of saying “They’ve been helpful when I’ve asked questions” I haven’t got much to say.

    1. A Jane*

      I would imagine that it would be fine to just say that. Have you been asked to give more input than that? In that case ask your manager to expand on what’s required.

    2. AcidMeFlux*

      Be specific about how they answer your questions. Does someone go out of their way to get you an answer that’s not easy to find, are they always clear in their explanation, are they always pleasant and professional, are they sometimes proactive and check in with you before you need something, do they do any follow-up?….stuff like that . Little stuff counts and is a big part of professionalism.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I think it’s okay to be honest!

      I had a staff member who had been on less than 3 months when 360s were due. She wrote very similar things. She did ask specific mentions like, “Jill has been very receptive to my questions on X, and helped me understand our process.”

      2. cuppa*

        I once had to write a review on someone I had only worked with for three weeks due to medical leave. I’m pretty sure I acknowledged that in the review. I did get a little bit of feedback from a previous manager, but overall, it was a pretty neutral review.

      3. Charby*

        I like the specifics. If they’ve answered questions for you on a specific project you can sprinkle some details about what exactly they did for you in there to add verisimilitude and to make your response longer if you’re worried it looks too short.

    4. LBK*

      Not having to interact with them a lot could be a good point – something about how you don’t need to get info from them that often but when you do, it’s concise and accurate so you don’t have to go back and forth a lot?

  3. Daisy*

    My husband got an out of state job, I quit my job, it didn’t work out, and we came back (to a new job in our home state). This all happened in about 4 months. How do I explain me leaving my job in interviews? I’m afraid him leaving a job so soon will reflected badly on me. Like somehow he was flaky and I might be flaky and leave a job quickly.

    The job I quit I was only at for about 9 months but other than that the 3 other jobs on my resume were all 3-4+ years.

    1. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

      I’m not sure how to address it during the cover letter, but during the interview I would think it would be fine to be honest e.g. “My husband took a job in another city, but it didn’t work out for him, so we moved back.”

      Best of luck.

      1. puddin*

        ^THIS

        You do not need to go into any more explanation. If you did so, it might make you look overly pre-occupied (within the context of job hunting) with your recent travails.

      2. WLE*

        Yes, or something along the lines of “My husband was offered a great position in ______, but after a few months we realized how much we missed our home state (insert a few short reasons why), so we are excited to be back.” I don’t think this would reflect poorly on you.

      3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        Yes, I don’t think you need to go into details. You could add, “We’re also glad to be back in ThisTown, and plan to stay here long term” to reassure them that you don’t plan to move back to that other city.

      4. Daisy*

        Thanks. I hope they don’t press any further than that but a job interview should be about me and not him.

    2. Courtney B*

      Was he laid off or did the job change substantially? Did he take an engineering job but it turned out to be a sales job? I’d think it’d be a good explanation of you moved for your husband’s job but the role had changed substantially from the role he was hired for and you moved back to your home state. Maybe someone else can word it better than me.

      1. Daisy*

        It was a change in his field (and he was recruited for the job) and a new position for them. There were a lot of factors that helped make this decision but it came down to they didn’t 100% know what they were looking for and it wasn’t a good fit or his dream job like he thought. It was a mutually agreed split and they even paid for the move back.

    3. A Jane*

      The way you’ve explained it here is fine.
      The fact that you have very steady roles previously and no other gaps shows that you aren’t flaky.

    4. TootsNYC*

      Maybe say something like, “we experimented with a move to another city, but my husband’s position was eliminated, so we’re back for good.”

      Or “my husband’s job took us to another city, but when that ended shortly after our move, we came back.”

    1. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

      Best: Mostly productive work week. Made some really good progress on a large progress.

      Worst: Slightly overwhelmed at work and had an awful mom-guilt flare up for working outside the home instead of being home with my kiddos.

    2. CherryScary*

      Best: Blog we’re launching is out of development and in approvals!
      Worst: Responsibilities I was interested in taking over now sound like they’re going to a newly created position instead. Not sure if I want to jump ship on that…

    3. June*

      Best: Really great recruitment event on Wednesday!
      Worst: A request for something that would have made life a lot easier for my event was denied by the higher ups.

      Bonus: Because of the Jewish Holidays, I get Monday and Tuesday off next week. Happy New Year, fellow Jews! :)

    4. Natalie*

      Best: I’m pulling myself out of this weird out of nowhere work slump.

      Worst: my evening accounting class was cancelled, with no notice, and that was communicated by posting a note to the door. WTF? It’s 2015 – send us a damn email so I don’t need to drag my butt over to the college just to find out the class is cancelled. I was able to register for a different section, which is good, but it takes place in the middle of the work day and I’m a little concerned that will become a problem. I guess we’ll see.

      1. Anna the Accounting Student*

        Well, you registered for an evening section and they cancelled it with no notice. That in itself should be sufficient to demonstrate good faith on your end. Just how much they care about the new section being during the day will probably depend on all sorts of stuff: if you’re taking this class to be better at your job it might not be much of an issue at all.

    5. over educated and underemployed*

      Best: it’s been a slow work week and I’ve just been trying to enjoy it and relax a little instead of get anxious about whether what I’m doing could be More Significant Professional Development. (There has been a lot of anxiety about the job hunt lately.)

      Worst: I got rejected for 3 jobs in the last 2 days, so I guess people are coming back from summer vacations, and I haven’t heard back from an interview last week, which is probably bad given that the hiring manager said she’d probably let me know by the end of this week. Two of the three job rejections were from the major university where my husband works, and where I really really really want a job, and one was even in his institute within the university, in a capacity where I have good relevant experience. (I asked him to mention that I applied to his acquaintance who would be the supervisor, and try to talk me up a little to get my resume seen, but I don’t think he did and it looks like my resume didn’t even make it past HR.) I’m totally despairing about getting a job at this university, which is one of the major employers in our area, because I’m getting interviews elsewhere but I haven’t even made it to a phone screen here.

    6. Rubyrose*

      Best: I gave notice. No more late night/early morning meeting with offshore. No more dealing with a difficult PM. No more 70 hr weeks for a straight 4 months.
      Worst: telling me immediate coworkers, who have been great.

      3. Rubyrose*

        Thank you, thank you!
        Yes, they have been what I call stupid hours, caused by an install project where everything went wrong. My health has suffered. And while I have learned that I can communicate with Indians with a variety of accents, it does take a lot of concentration. I’m in IT, and this was worse that Y2K.

    7. ACA*

      Best: I got my first ever business cards! (In previous jobs, I was too low-level to qualify.) It’s silly, but it makes me feel like a real Adult.

      Worst: Our dinner schedule’s been messed up all week, so there haven’t been any leftovers and thus I’ve been spending too much money buying lunch every day.

      1. CdnAcct*

        Best: I got recognized for some process improvement I did in my new job which came with a cash bonus!

        Worst: I’m getting anxious about filing taxes for my side job/project, not because I hate doing the taxes, but because gathering the required revenue/expense info is a slog and not clean. I’ve procastinated a lot on this and feel awful about it.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Oh, I’m not the only one! My cards came in last week and I was sitting there alternating between excitementhe , and feeling silly for being so happy. =P

        2. Amber Rose*

          Hmm, autocorrect has invented a new word. Excitementhe: the alcohol that gives you uncontrollable feelings of joy.

          Or the toothpaste that makes your tongue dance.

          Or… the gum that bursts into fireworks when you blow bubbles.

      3. CMT*

        Yay, business cards!
        I asked for some recently when I went to a conference (my first ever work travel; that made me feel like a real adult!) and I got a few sheets of crappy-looking cards printed by an Admin Assistant. :-/ Oh, well.

        1. Anx*

          I still hold on to my business cards from 10 years ago (oh my goodness how as it been that long?).

          They’re a really space efficient memento from that job.

      4. LabTech*

        I felt the same way about getting my business cards. I even (unprofessionally) handed each person in the room one, gleefully saying “Here’s my card.” I’ll handle it better next time…

      5. Katie*

        I hate when I don’t have leftovers! It’s so frustrating. We have like 3 options close to work, and they’re all practically a $15 minimum for lunches.

    8. InterviewFreeZone*

      Best: Got enthusiastic job offer.
      Worst: Had to decline job offer. Didn’t hear back from other job I was excited about. Also, old friend died of cancer.

    9. Pineapple Incident*

      Best: This is my last week floating around my organization. On Monday I will have a home department where I am not called “hey, uh, you…float girl”

      Worst: My organization has not attempted folding performance into how annual increases are determined, and I still only make $11.92 an hour. Will hopefully jump ship within the year to something better paying.. if I can get someone to hire me :/

    10. ConstructionHR*

      Best: Monday holiday, worked 10s on Tues/Wed/Thurs, took 2 hours of vacay today to make my 40. Been home every night.

      Worst: Looks like my next project has significantly lower pay grades (to the tune of ~$550/week less). :(

    11. Whatsername*

      Best: My weekly update that gets rolled up leadership was impressive. It’s been a long quarter so far, but seeing all my accomplishments listed out in one place is very satisfying.

      Worst: Mandatory fun is happening today…and it’s on a boat. I’ve opted out because I really don’t need my coworkers to see me spazzing over being on a boat. Obviously I’m working instead of going- but I’m still worried I’m being seen as ‘not a team player’.

      (It’s not even a normal boat! It’s a freaking slab of fiberglass a foot above the water! And no one can even tell me how many people they’re trying to pack on there! GAAAAAHHH.)

      1. Whatsername*

        Oooh, and we’re almost to ten passive aggressive emails from people about how they “really hope to see everyone there” at the boat-thing.

        1. AnonEMoose*

          I hate passive aggressive emails with a passion. Reminds me of a time some years ago (same company, but different boss/role than I have now). I arranged with my supervisor to skip a company meeting because I had a lot of work to do, and was already taking some time off that week because my husband and I were closing on a house.

          And for two weeks after that, my supervisor’s boss made remarks in my hearing about how “motivating” and awesome the company meetings were. Never mind that I had a good reason for not being there – reason being that I was trying to GET MY WORK DONE. That I would almost rather remove my own eyeballs with a spork than sit in those meetings …that I at least had the common sense to avoid sharing with him. And of course he never directly asked me why I didn’t go. Because, you see, that would be too much like confrontation, and despite him being in a fairly senior management-type role, he could NOT handle confrontation. ::eyeroll::

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I am not so sure that is passive-aggressive but I do see what you mean. I agree I hate that stuff. There was a news article about a boat that sank with too many people. Well, long story short, it was not so much that it was too many people. The boat was designed to hold x people who were averaging y weight. It was built decades ago and people are bigger now. So it not just the number of people, it’s also the average weight per person. FWIW, I doubt I would go, either.

          1. Whatsername*

            As far as the last email being passive aggressive, it came on the heels of another person saying there was’no justifiable reason not to go since it’s during the day, another reminding everyone that participants got gift cards, and then half a dozen ‘hope to see you there’ with trailing ellipsis and smiley faces. In hindsight, now that almost everyone is finally gone and I get to work in peace, it’s pretty funny.

        3. Camellia*

          Send them the puking emojie and go on and on about your motion sickness in excruciating detail. When they babble about Dramamine tell them it knocks you right out and oh, how terrible that would be!

          I know this because both happen to me. :)

          1. Whatsername*

            This is genius! It doesn’t even have proper railing, so obviously I would fall right over the edge and they’d have to fish me out and then everyone would feel awful and it would ruin everyone’s standing around on a slab of fiberglass fun.

        4. NJ Anon*

          I hate mandatory “fun.” Co-workers is trying to put together a fun, after work, on a week night event. Um, no thanks. Not mandatory and only one person besides the person responded in the positive, 2 responded in the negative and no one else responded. Well, there you go.

    12. TheExchequer*

      Best: Potluck yesterday and /hilarious/ misspelling on a website. (Said they installed truck /wenches/. Pretty sure they meant truck /winches/).

      Worst: There’s a project the president told me to do, but my immediate boss is /sure/ he meant something else. Of the two of us, I’m the only one who wrote something down and what I wrote down lends itself to my understanding. I don’t wanna go over her head, but I’m not sure if it’s going to get done otherwise and I don’t want the president to think I’m not doing it. :/

      1. CM*

        Oooh, I don’t know where our organization would be without those truck wenches.

        I, too, sometimes find myself in the middle of a disagreement (ahem, ”difference in interpretation”) between immediate supervisor/organization president. Awkward situation, to be sure. Good luck working that one out!

    13. Kyrielle*

      Best: I got my new feature working (twice).

      Worst: the first time I got it working, it literally broke more than 50 other things.

      …I love regression tests. At least I knew!

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        And that’s why I now test one change at a time. Nice work catching it fast. My first year doing coding, I figured that rule didn’t apply to me because I’m smart*, so I put all the requested enhancements in, then had to back them all out one by one until I found the bad piece of coding.

        *like seriously, I thought I was smarter than other people and wouldn’t make any mistakes. How quickly QA disabused me of that notion.

        1. Kyrielle*

          *sigh* Yep. This was one change! I had to get integration to scripting working. The steps I was given to do that, my first attempt, ended up breaking over 50 *unrelated* tests because it broke some piece of scripting they were using.

          It was a single include line that broke them. I had to find a way to do it that didn’t require including that module, in the end.

    14. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Best: My direct boss has been really vocal about how helpful and amazing I’ve been with a project, and that’s always nice to hear.

      Worst: Our company has a lot of new leadership, so everything’s changing…and my role is high-responsibility, low-visibility, so I don’t get to meet with the new leadership and actually learn what they want, even though I’m the one delivering everything. Argh.

    15. Calacademic*

      Best: Got the best-ever result for the current experiment we’re running.
      Worst: Broke a machine by reason of sheer stupidity. Yes, I did this (I also fixed it, but bah.)

    16. MAB*

      Best: I am 5 weeks into my new job, I like my boss, coworkers and employees. We may be picking up a new customer and our production is picking up.

      Worst: I have gotten nothing done on our audit prep and I feel like I am having a hard time picking up things like scheduling and time cards. But no one has complained yet though.

    17. Hlyssande*

      Best from actual job: Coworker McButts brought me a canteloupe from his garden. :D After we had lunch last Friday, I think we’re getting along better, which is great – but he’s still a sexist jerk and inappropriate in many ways. Also, got my work laptop and it’s so much faster.

      Best from volunteer thing: Returning lost and found items to their owners is seriously the best thing ever, especially when they’re high value things (phones, wallets – I got one with a hundo in it last weekend, etc). Super rewarding.

      Worst from actual job: Received my new work computer (laptop) and had to rearrange my desk to make space for it and the docking station which is unnecessarily huge. Also had to tweak all the settings of all the things and I still hate a lot of it (Outlook 2013 looks like so much crap to me).

      Worst from volunteer thing: The weather last Saturday and Sunday was absolutely brutal and I’m surprised we didn’t have any medical issues within the team. It definitely made everyone more grumpy and exhausted and affected our relations with the patrons (who were also suffering similarly, but with booze too). Also, someone brought an actual flintlock pistol that had to be confiscated (no gun replicas on site; we didn’t know it was real at first) and caused a hullabaloo with us and the safety team. He didn’t know it was real since he’d gotten it (and the POWDER HORN) from a friend who got it at a garage sale or something.

      1. Liza*

        Who takes a pistol to a renaissance festival, anyway? (I remember your volunteer thing from an earlier open thread.)

        1. Hlyssande*

          Well, it was the steampunk-themed weekend so I get it, but it was like NOBODY actually checked the website for weapon restrictions. MNRF is more of a fantasy faire. :P

    18. Hlyssande*

      Other worst actual job thing: At the quarterly webcast yesterday they announced that since oil prices are still dropping, more reductions are going to be made. =\

    19. Anna*

      Best: Applied for a job that is a step up in the field I want to stay in (rather than having to move focus to move up) and it comes with a pay rise.

      Worst: I didn’t follow the directions for the cover letter because I couldn’t bring myself to write a blow-by-blow cover letter outlining everything they could see in my resume and electronic application, so now I have a bit of paranoia.

      1. CMT*

        Is it for a government job? I work for state government, and to get past any kind of HR screening, you really do have to address all of their bullet points in your cover letter. It obviously makes for shitty writing, and not a normal cover letter, but HR and the hiring managers aren’t using them in the same way as other places do. When I applied for my current job, my cover letter was a little over a page and a half, and I think I actually used bullet points to address each of the qualifications they required.

    20. CV*

      Best: Settlement and Career fair that my Immigration Org had booths at was much better attended than expected (and I was on teevee! Doing my job!)
      Worst: six straight hours of resume critiques. Ow.

    21. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Worst: I have a cough that’s kept me on the verge of losing my voice all week. It’s painful to talk. I teach elementary school. :-/

      Best: Being back at school, in a world where children run up to me on the playground and hug me spontaneously. Also, I’ve had a few times this week where I taught something totally new and it went great – always an awesome feeling.

    22. CMT*

      Best: Wrote what I think is an awesome cover letter, thanks to all of the advice from this blog. (We’ll see if the powers that be think it’s as awesome as I do.)

      Worst: I didn’t really have anything I *had* to do at work this week, so I was pretty unmotivated and bored. I’m really going to work on not falling into that trap next week.

    23. Rye-Ann*

      Best: I had assumed that I was out of the running for a job, since training was supposed to start on the 13th and I hadn’t heard anything from them. However, I recalled a post on here saying that it’s fine to follow up a few weeks after the interview to inquire about their timeline. I did that, and they got back to me this morning saying that they’re still reviewing candidates and that they hoped to have a decision soon! TL;DR: Not as out-of-the-running for a job as I thought! :D

      Worst: There was even fewer positions to apply for this week than there have been in the past couple weeks. I unfortunately live in an area where my field isn’t all that big (though it does exist), so this wasn’t SUPER surprising. Still, I keep seeing things like “you should be sending out at least 10 applications a week” and that is just literally impossible for me unless I start applying for jobs outside my field and/or am overqualified for. Which I will probably start doing soon unless I get the job I interviewed for a few weeks ago. I am just dreading it, because a) I don’t know how to convince them to hire someone with a MS for jobs that only require a HS diploma, b) I don’t have any retail experience, so even though I’d be willing to do that I’m not convinced I could even get a job like that and c) everyone in my department at the school I’ve just graduated from expects me to have a super awesome career, and I don’t want to disappoint them. ;_; On top of that, I keep arguing with myself as to whether I should have just convinced my boyfriend to move to Boston (one of the best places in the country to go for my field). We both really want to live here though, and I’m not sure our savings would be sufficient to sustain us while we job-searched in Boston (higher cost of living).

    24. Daydreamer*

      Best: Working well with a colleague on various projects, and love to see how she’s blossoming in this role
      Worst: Feeling overlooked by my boss re meetings, opinions, etc. Fighting a cold.

    25. RidingNerdy*

      Best: My boss was absolutely A+++ awesome when I announced my pregnancy to him.

      Worst: The nausea and tiredness hit me like a Mack truck this week and impacted my performance at work.

    26. schnapps*

      Best: My kid started grade 1 and I didn’t cry. Also, she seems to like school now.

      Worst: Started back to work after 2 weeks off, report from hell to get out to the people who need it (we need to change this! no we don’t! oh yes, we need to change it but not in the way that we initially thought we had to change it! But Matlock has to weigh in! Matlock has to talk to Ferdinand! We’ll have the change yesterday! No, today!), two hour commute to get in – double my usual thanks to an accident on the highway, and no love from either of the jobs I applied for over the last couple of weeks (didn’t get an interview for one, didn’t make it to second round for the other).

    27. Elizabeth West*

      Best: Four-day week!

      Worst: It seemed like a six-day week. I didn’t catch a mistake and my boss did (augh), we had to sit through the longest most boring WebEx meeting imaginable yesterday–at which the sound wouldn’t work properly, and the weather has been wonky.

      But it’s Friday!

    29. Ruffingit*

      Best: Relatively easy day today so I’m able to do some catch up work.

      Worst: The environment still reeks like Jeffrey Dahmer’s apartment.

    30. Angie*

      Best: had a patient call my boss to find out what office id be drawing blood at because im their favorite

      Worst: they must be handing out lists at the front desk today with my pet peeves and offering prizes to the patients who can manage to do more than 3 in the 3 minutes their with me. I cant tell you how many times ive been called a vampire or asked if id be drinking the blood, one person moved to get their phone out of their pocket while I had a needle in their arm, and THREE patients today have touched their arm to tell me where the vein was after I wiped it and uncapped the needle. Im so happy im out in an hour.

      1. Rebecca*

        Haha, you would love me! I stay perfectly still and try not to even think about the blood, let alone talk about it.

    31. BTW*

      Not so exciting over here.

      Best: Had a nice, relaxing week off! I’m a wedding coordinator so last week and long weekend was non-stop meetings, rehearsals and weddings.

      Worst: Didn’t make it to the next round of hiring for a job I really wanted.

    32. ThursdaysGeek*

      Good: I had an interesting dream about a work situation and in my dream decided it would be worth posting here on the open thread.

      Bad: I don’t remember what it was about.

      Better: You all are probably happy about that, because most dreams don’t make much sense when they are repeated in real life.

      Best? I’m now dreaming about AAM?

    33. GiGi*

      Best: My supervisor saying something about how far a problem would be “penetrating our backdoor” during a meeting when in fact she meant “our backyard.”

      No worst…pretty good week all in all.

    34. Carrie in Scotland*

      Worst: I’m not eligible for relocation like I thought I was…it is only for grade 6’s and above. I’m on a grade 4.
      Other worst: I’m still not entirely sure what I, or anyone else in my office actually does.

      Best: leaving work for the weekend.

    35. Aardvark*

      Best: Did some analysis, found out we’re doing great on something that was a huge pain point last time around (second best: added a new symbol to my note-taking system for tasks that have to be done at a certain time, makes getting everything done slightly easier)
      Worst: People keep doing odd things, and I get to clean up the fallout from those odd things on short notice and with tight deadlines.

    36. AW*

      Best: Finished latest projects & client seems happy.

      Worst: Now I have to find new work!

      Bonus: My husband got a new job and starts next week.

    37. aliascelli*

      best: our fall intern started! I don’t supervise the interns but I get to do a lot of their intro to the org and what we do, which is one of the most fun parts of my job.

      worst/funniest: was writing a recommendation letter last night and fell asleep mid-sentence. Woke up this morning still in the chair, still clutching my laptop. Every joint in my body is angry with me. oops.

    38. lfi*

      best: started a new job where everyone is SO thrilled that i’m here, which makes me feel good.

      worst: not sure there is one? aside from ants in our kitchen… :(

    39. CM*

      Worst: An emergency medical situation took me out of work for a week. I had the PTO to cover it… but this was the week I was planning on giving my one-month notice. Not the ”welcome back” conversation my supervisor is probably going to expect next week.

      Best: The week out of work, though unpleasant due to aforementioned medical reasons, gave me the distance and clarity I needed to think about the next step. So while the timing is unfortunate, any uncertainty I may have have before is now gone, thanks to a bit of perspective.

      Bonus Thoughts: It was so exciting to get the coveted ”real job” after graduation, but sometimes I sure do miss the simplicity of my barista days.

    40. Fish Microwaver*

      Best: attended an awesome PD day that lifted me out of the doldrums and has helped me reframe some things.

      Worst: have struggled all week with incipient flu and finally succumbed.

    41. asteramella*

      Best: started the ball rolling with my new side hustle (freelance editing).

      Worst: lost all confidence in the C-suite at my day job. Our busy season is winter and I will be seriously applying elsewhere by November.

    42. Anx*

      Job:
      Best: I’ve been so busy! I haven’t even had time to eat a snack or check my email some days. That may not sound like a good thing at first, but it does feel good to know my job actually needs me to be there. Plus, I find I can get into a good groove this way.

      Worst: We had Labor Day off. So I lost 25% of my pay for the week. Which not only stinks in a practical matter, but is even more frustrating because the higher-ups at work get a paid day off and don’t even seem to realize how frustrating a forced day off is if it means cutting back on groceries for the week.

      Volunteer:
      Best: I think I finally understand where a lot of my day-to-days tasks fit into the big picture. Also, every once in a while, I feel like I can actually do this work. At times I feel like I belong. For most of my life I’ve doubted my ability to do this work because I felt like I’d never have the stroke of genius I’d associated with it, but for the past two years I’ve noticed I had a lot of good ideas that I’d see published or explored a whiles after.

      Worst: I thought for sure I’d made a major blunder last weekend. I was afraid I made a mistake that would set us back a week or two and that could snowball into missed publications or patents and ruin my coworkers careers. It ended up being fine, but it’s obvious that I’m back to worst-case-scenario thinking and I am not ready to start making real mistakes. Oh boy.

    43. Mallory Janis Ian*

      Best: Had a faculty retreat at a very nice conference center in the middle of a botanical gardens. Got to take a walk downtown during the hour-and-a-half when we admins were not needed, and visited a museum.

      Worst: missing the Friday open thread!

    44. Dot Warner*

      Best: Got business cards at new job.

      Worst: One of the people who’s training me has subtly encouraged me to resign. I think I should, because it’s looking like either that or get fired. Now I wonder how to leave this job off my resume and still explain why I moved 2000 miles away…

    45. AgentScully*

      Best: 4 day work week

      Worst: After being promised pay increases for me and the staff I supervise, my boss suddenly refuses to speak to me about the increases. When I asked point blank what the status was (we’ve been waiting for 4 months) he told me that he hadn’t officially moved forward with them as “HR person hasn’t been in a good mood lately”. WHAT?!?!

  5. april ludgate*

    I share an office with my coworker, Ann. This is a private office, we don’t do any client-facing work and most of the time people treat it as such, they knock before entering, or pop their head in and ask if we can talk. Our office has an interior door that connects to Tom’s office, but his office has it’s own separate entrance as well, which most of our coworkers use. Lately, however, an employee from another department, Craig, has been frequently treating our office as a short cut to get to Tom’s office. He never knocks, just marches in and slams the door behind him, then he comes back through as soon as he and Tom are done talking. This is really annoying, as it interrupts our work, but neither of us are comfortable with confronting him since he does rank significantly higher than us, so we’re unsure what would be the best approach to stop this.

    1. Wanna-Alp*

      Does the door have a lock on it?

      Have you already asked him not to use your office as a shortcut? What did he say?

      1. april ludgate*

        The door does have a lock, and we considered just locking it, but we have enough people who come to see us for actual questions that it would be just as annoying to have to constantly let people in. Also, no one here locks their office doors unless they’re out, so it would definitely seem out of place if we started keeping our door locked.

        I’ve never said anything to him, but before I started Ann and the person previously in my position had talked to the department head because almost everyone, including Tom himself, was cutting through this office as a shortcut. The previous department head put a stop to it, but I don’t know if Craig has forgotten or is just rude.

              1. april ludgate*

                I’d love to do that, but unfortunately there are legitimate reasons that other people use the door, like our admin assistant brings the mail cart through that way.

                1. fposte*

                  Oh, then you’ve got an uphill battle, because it’s clear it’s a legitimate way to go. Really it’s your office design that’s at fault here.

                  What does your manager say about this? I might run it by her. Would you be okay if it the outcome was Craig remembering to knock and not slamming the door, even if he still used that entrance?

                2. Rex*

                  If there is some way to make it sort of inconvenient for Craig, like he has to walk around three tables and a potted plant to get to the door, while still not blocking it for the mail cart, that might be an approach?

        3. Charby*

          It might be worth trying that again (reaching out to the department head). Sometimes people really do forget and if no one is saying things to him he might think that it’s OK now that the department head has left. If the new person in that role reiterates that it might remind him and you wouldn’t have to confront Craig agian.

          1. april ludgate*

            That’s Ann’s thought. I know that on here people usually recommend talking to the offender directly before going above their head, but it was already addressed once by someone higher up than him and now he’s ignoring it.

            2. Charby*

              True, but my thinking is that Craig thinks that the rule was something that the old department head cared about (a pet peeve) and that since the old head is gone it no longer applies. If the new person reiterates it he might remember.

    2. Serin*

      I’d start by asking Tom to ask Craig not to do this.

      And then I’d rearrange the furniture so that the connecting door to Tom’s office is blocked by a credenza or something.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Or just a chair that they have to walk around…or, if you’re feeling particularly passive-aggressive, put the chair where they have to move it to open/walk through the door.

      3. april ludgate*

        I would ask Tom if I felt it would do any good, but the dynamics here are weird between our department and his right now and I really don’t think talking to him would help our case at all. But I would love to just block the door passive aggressively…

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I was thinking along similar lines. Do you have a task that involves spreading out a lot of papers or something? I’d borrow a table from somewhere and spread the work out, then plunk myself next to it. Hopefully, he would come barging in and I would be in his way. Of course, I would apologize for the road block and then point out- most people do not come this way so I thought it would be okay to set up right here. Depending on his reaction I might need my project table for weeks. Very P/A, I know, but it would be my last resort if nothing else worked.

        OTH, maybe you could ask the boss to have a pneumatic door closer installed on the door so it won’t slam anymore.

    3. TL -*

      Ideally, you should just mention it to him, politely but firmly, but you can try the below, too.

      When he walks in, you should smile and ask, “Hi, can I help you?” (or something along those lines.) (If you want to really firm, do it when he comes back out of Tom’s office too.)

      Do that every time and hopefully he’ll start realizing that you’re expecting that people who come in to have business with you.

      1. april ludgate*

        I like this idea! It’s definitely more productive than my initial instinct, which was to just follow him across the room with the stink eye each time.

        1. TL -*

          thanks! Just make sure you say it with a very friendly tone (you don’t want to be passive aggressive, you just want to make him think about what your expectations are when he comes into your office.)

      2. L*

        And if he says he’s just visiting Tom, you should be prepared to say (with a surprised face) “Oh! Most people just use the other door.” Then go back to working. Feign surprise/stupidity.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      Just ask him not to walk through your office, it doesn’t have to be (and in fact shouldn’t be) a confrontation. If you want to be polite then blame it on your own ability to concentrate when people are walk through the office.

      1. april ludgate*

        I agree that it probably wouldn’t be categorized as a “confrontation” I just couldn’t think of a better word. I just have pretty bad social anxiety (which I’m working on) and after the last time Ann complained about this, another employee told her to stop “bitching” about it, so I completely get why she’d rather just talk to someone else instead of approaching him directly.

        1. fposte*

          Do you mean the person Ann asked not to cut through the office asked her to stop bitching? Or was she complaining to a fellow co-worker? Because the latter is unpleasant but possibly understandable, and it has no bearing on what the person actually cutting through would do.

          1. april ludgate*

            Tom complained to another coworker (Donna) about Ann complaining to the dept head. Donna then told Ann that she shouldn’t have “bitched” to the dept head about it. (Which she did because Tom was the most frequent culprit of office-barging at that time and he has a history of treating women as being below him, despite the fact that he and Ann have the same rank)

              1. april ludgate*

                Yeah, she has a habit of getting into everyone’s business. It only took me about a week here before I pegged her as someone to never share anything personal with ever unless you’re cool with the entire office knowing.

            2. Not So Sunny*

              So basically, Donna made a negative gender statement against women by proclaiming that Ann’s complaint was “bitching.” Making Donna as bad as Tom. Nice.

    6. StillLAH*

      I’m sure Leslie has a color-coded binder that will have approximately 3,592 solutions. Check with her first. You could also install the remote controlled thing that closes Ron’s door and close yours when you see Craig coming.

      /unhelpful answer, but I couldn’t resist the Parks & Rec love!

    7. lowercase holly*

      is there something really wrong with tom’s regular entrance? i’m just having a hard time figuring out why people would want to go through two doors instead of one to get to his office.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Probably the OP’s door is closer to Craig’s own office than Tom’s regular door, so it saves him a few (perceived) steps in the hall.

      2. april ludgate*

        Because it takes a whole 10-20 seconds longer to walk to Tom’s actual door than to cut through our office.

    8. yahoo*

      Would it be rude to put up a sign that says “Do not use this door as a short cut” and have the original memo that stated that listed on that sign and have that sign on the door. If Craig comes in again, ask him to read the sign.

    9. Anonsie*

      Ohhh I kinda don’t want to go here but I’m doing it anyway: Do you think Craig maybe considers you and Ann to be assistants/support staff for Tom, so he’s acting like he’s walking through “reception” to Tom’s office?

      PS this is giving me a headache trying to picture because on the show, Tom sits right inside Leslie’s door and Craig is outside next to April and Ann has her own office so IT DOESN’T ADD UP *pulls hair*

      Sorry, I’m having a day.

    10. Rebecca*

      Haha, you could always pull a Joan Harris: “This is not a thoroughfare! Take the extra steps, you could use them.”

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I vote for creating a meme with Joan’s picture and this phrase and posting it where people can see it. Combine this humorous reminder with an actual reminder from the department head.

    11. TootsNYC*

      I’d start by asking Tom to sign off on the idea of you asking Craig, or whether he’d like to approach it himself.

      Because it sounds like you might need to get Tom on board, since he himself used to use this door.

    12. Jerry Vandesic*

      Peanut butter under the door knob. Vaseline is another option. Something that is gooey enough to stick. Extra points if it is difficult to get off your hands.

      Repeat as necessary.

  6. Wanna-Alp*

    Hellllp! I’d really appreciate some perspectives and possible responses on this.

    I’m the only woman on a team (programming & other techy stuff); generally my co-workers are ok to work with, albeit with a small but undercurrent of sexist microaggressions that I understand is a fairly typical experience for women working in tech.

    One of the team, B, sent out an email announcing that next week I get to lead an expedition to the nearest watering hole and officially become a [team name] drinker. We very rarely have a team social, and in recent years I have had committments elsewhere so haven’t attended any socials, and I think he was trying to encourage me to be social with the rest of the team.

    I really don’t like this email. I don’t like getting volunteered for things, and I’m very uncomfortable with the whole idea of socialising with the team in the first place, because I don’t feel 100% psychologically safe with them outside the structure of a work environment. In particular I’m not comfortable socialising with A, who has made it unpleasantly clear how irritating he finds my presence (B is probably unaware of this).

    1. Courtney B*

      I think it’s very inconsiderate they volunteered you for a social event without your permission. Especially for one that’s alcohol related. How do they know that the person they volunteered doesn’t abstain from alcohol for health or religious reasons?

      This really rubs me the wrong way. “Officially become a (team name) drinker”. Some people may be alcoholics in recovery and this just seems so disrespectful to those that may not drink for various reasons.

      1. INTP*

        Or for that matter, maybe the person just doesn’t drink and drive. I drink but never at work events because I don’t drink and drive, and I’m not paying for a taxi to work just so I can imbibe at happy hour. There are a million reasons why any person might not feel like drinking at any moment.

        At happy hour I can just say “No thanks, I’m so tired and need to stay alert for the drive home!” but with that sort of build up I’d feel very awkward showing up and not drinking.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I was just going to say this–if you do drive, then you can’t drink unless you get a cab, and then you have to leave your car and then go get it the next day, which is massively inconvenient.

      2. Honeybee*

        They don’t, but they probably don’t care. A lot of these tech teams made up primarily of young men have a very bro-y culture and they expect conformity. (Of course, not all of them are like that…but that would explain the insensitivity of it given Wanna-Alp’s comment.)

    2. UKAnon*

      I really don’t know what to say, other than yeek, I really wouldn’t like it either. Any chance you could move onto pastures better soon?

      Probably I would be tempted to come up with the most outlandish thing I thought I could get away with for why I couldn’t be there, I’m being abducted by aliens that evening, sorry, but it would be far better to say firmly that you don’t think it’s an appropriate social and won’t be attending, if you’re sure that won’t harm your credibility with the team. Unfortunately, it sounds from your post that it will, so I think you either have to put up with going or with taking the flak, which sucks.

    3. fposte*

      Can you clarify what you want to have happen? Are you trying to get out of the watering hole thing entirely or trying to negotiate it? Or is part of your question just figuring out what you might want?

      I’m not a drinker myself, but this sounds like an office where the social stuff matters, and it seems like B was reaching out to include you. In your position I think I would go and reconceptualize the “leadership” concept so the social stuff wasn’t all on me. (I’d also feel free to drink non-alcoholically, because that’s my general habit anyway.) And I’d probably drop in on every fourth social or so, even if I just was there for a short time before I bailed early, if the socials are important to the team.

      There is of course the other option of choosing not to take part; you could say “Thanks, B., but I’m actually out of town that evening–I officially nominate you to deputize for me.” I wouldn’t spend a lot of angst over the “voluntold” thing.

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        Part of it is figuring out what I want, and what might be possible.

        I prefer to keep levels of discomfort to a minimum all-round, both me and the rest of the team. (If someone else is uncomfortable, then I’m uncomfortable, especially if I have something to do with it, even if it wasn’t my fault.) At the moment I don’t know whether it’s going to be more uncomfortable to go, or not go. It might also be possible to clue B in a bit so he doesn’t make a habit of this. I’m sure he means well.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, there are a lot of parts here. Would socializing help me with the team? Is this the time? Is this the way? Can I socialize without making it look like I always do what B. says?

          FWIW, I was definitely picturing the kind of affable male-bonding thing where a guy who can’t go can just say say. Doesn’t mean people wouldn’t make good-natured jeering noises, but I read it more as a gesture of inclusion than a command of performance.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I love this answer. Or OP, shape it into the social YOU want. Choose a place that serves pizza and no alcohol. Or chose a family-type place that does serve alcohol and reserve a table for a limited amount of time. “We have a table at X, for 1.5 hours.” Start time can also help to control the event.

        I am not a drinker, so this social would not do a lot for me. I could stay for an hour and then be done with it.

        Putting your own spin on it, would be something to consider. I could also feel comfortable saying, “I am not much of a drinker, so I have no idea where people would want to go. As far as being lead group drinker, I can tell you right now, I will be a massive fail. It’s not my thing.”

        I am kind of frosted by the whole assumption that everyone drinks. And of the people who do drink some do not place much priority on it at all.

    4. Bend & Snap*

      Yuck. He should have talked to you about this first.

      I think you should take control of that email ASAP. Either turn it into a joke (I do my drinking at home!) or just deflect it from a scheduling perspective.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Yeah, this sounds pretty uncomfortable. Is there anyone on your team (B, even, assuming the social voluntolding was well-intentioned) that you can confide in/enlist as a wingman? Having someone in your corner who understands your discomfort might help make the event a little less awkward and can be a good buffer against others.

      …or, there’s always “Sorry, I have plans.”

    6. Ad Astra*

      Oh, I can totally see how this would bother you, though I bet B was trying to be fun and inclusive rather than demanding and presumptuous, which is how it comes off.

      If you want to be direct, you could tell B “I’d rather keep my work life and personal life separate, so I’m not going to be able to make it.” Or “I don’t like drinking with coworkers, so I’m gonna have to step out of this one.”

      If you’re not comfortable being direct, it’s totally ok to say you have other plans. It doesn’t matter that those other plans might be going home and watching TV.

      It’s hard to say without knowing the details, but the situation with A might be something you should bring up with HR. Lots of people prefer not to drink with coworkers, but not feeling psychologically safe around coworkers sounds pretty serious to me.

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        Yes I think you’re right, he was trying to be fun and inclusive. I appreciate his positive intentions.

        The situation with A was already brought up with HR (6 months ago), and HR were brilliant about the whole thing. That leaves A and I in a civil but minimal post-HR phase now. The psychologically unsafe thing is more about a culture clash (mine vs male-dominated tech) and a gut feeling rather than anything concrete.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          If you do end up going, I’d just not drink. Especially if you have a gut feeling about not feeling safe. Because alcohol rarely makes anyone act better than they normally do.

    7. LCL*

      You are going to have to do some minimal team socialization, sooner or later. But it gets to be on your terms, B can’t command you go anywhere. I would first speak to B and tell him thanks but no thanks, I’m not going. Then I would tell the people on your team that I will be at the local coffee shop on a Friday, and would treat them to a cuppa if they will stop by. This gets socializing done, on mostly your terms, in a safe setting where alcohol isn’t the focus.

      Don’t talk about microaggresions, or how much of a jerk A is, or that you feel unsafe. You have every right to think what you want and make your best decisions for yourself, and YOU DON”T HAVE TO EXPLAIN YOUR REASONS TO ANYONE. (There is a time and place for the microaggresions discussion…)

      Your instincts are sound, to not drink with these guys. It sounds like you are still finding your way working with them. If you go out with them and put on beer goggles that usually ends badly, and usually only for the woman.

    8. Mr. Mike*

      Regardless of how you might feel about gender issues, this is indicative of typical male bonding behavior and they are inviting you to participate in it even though they may not be aware of the discomfort. While you are under no obligation to participate, your rejection of this activity may lead to distrust among the rest of the team as they will likely feel rejected (we men can be dumb like that) and there may be a more definitive wall between you afterward.

      On the other hand, you should prioritize your safety above their ritual. If you feel like this may be something that is not on the level, don’t do it. If you decide to participate, there is nothing to say that you can’t just get a sipping drink and then exit gracefully. However, the way you phrased it sounds like this is just their clumsy attempt at being inclusive.

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        Yes yes exactly! Your words express very nicely what I couldn’t: “this is indicative of typical male bonding behavior and they are inviting you to participate in it even though they may not be aware of the discomfort. While you are under no obligation to participate, your rejection of this activity may lead to distrust among the rest of the team as they will likely feel rejected”

        Exactly. I think B is trying to do bonding behavior because we are not very well bonded as a team (C said, to an earlier suggestion, that “Tuesday would be a good day to have it. I’m not in the office on Tuesdays.”).

        To a certain extent, it is damned if I do, damned if I don’t, although there are several others in the team who have walls up too. Our default seems to be to have a lot of walls up!

        1. fposte*

          I think you can control the damnation level some either way, though. You can go and stay cheery and distant from A.; you can decline the invitation but do so in a broad and friendly way that reserves a future opportunity; etc.

        2. Mr. Mike*

          Glad I could help. Is this an established ritual? From your post it suggests that it already is, but, if not, you could have an opportunity to establish one that can be passed on to the next person by you in a way that would model the better behavior. For instance, you can set the venue up then, instead of simply passing it to the next person (like was done to you), you can ask for volunteers for the next outing. However, if this is already an established behavior, it will be difficult to change.

        3. Anonsie*

          I’m gonna give C some props for the finesse of that burn.

          So I’m not sure if you think you can duck out of this gracefully or not, but if not, I would suggest a pub or somewhere else with decent food. The beauty of this is that most people will probably eat and not talk. The downside is it’s harder to bail out on short notice… Bring cash I guess >_>

          Alternately, make it somewhere loud with no seating where the grumpier ones will hopefully just slip away when they get sick of it.

      2. Honeybee*

        I was coming in to say the same thing. Particularly if you already feel like an outsider, attending this particular social outing might be kind of important for bringing you more into the fold. B was probably trying to be helpful and inclusive in an awkward way, and who knows – A might be irritated by your presence because of (unfounded) assumptions about you not fitting in, which might be remedied if you go out with them.

        I agree with trying to go and maybe leaving a bit early. I’d order water or Coke with a lime on the side so it looks like a drink (it often cuts down on the badgering about not drinking AND the badgering about “nursing”).

      3. Alma*

        (After my 20’s) I learned it was unwise for me to drink alcoholic beverages at any work related event. I will order tonic and lime, cranberry and seltzer with lime, etc and not hesitate to be truthful if asked: I don’t drink at work events – or – I don’t drink and drive – or – this is exactly what I want, something refreshing.

      4. Anonsie*

        this is indicative of typical male bonding behavior

        Who says getting sloppy isn’t female bonding behavior too, eh? I’m a pretty big fan of the slops.

    9. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

      … my co-workers are ok to work with, albeit with a small but undercurrent of sexist microaggressions that I understand is a fairly typical experience for women working in tech.

      I’m sorry, but I do not believe that that is typical at all, at least not on a gender basis. Given the ego on the average tech guy, those “microaggressions” are targeted at everyone, regardless of gender.

      Regarding the invite: if you don’t want to go, then don’t go. You might optionally advise B that he should ask you first before assuming you’ll be free to “lead” such an expedition. But try to be nice about it, as it sounds like B may have thought he was being nice – you may disagree, but it sounds like he (and perhaps others) wanted you to know that they felt you were part of the team. Ref the musical Oliver.

      All in all, given your apparent feelings about your co-workers, I wonder why you continue to work with these people.

        1. Anna*

          She’s just being overly emotional, doncha know.

          Yeah, I’m going to go with the OP probably knows better what is actually happening since a) she’s experiencing it and b) this person is not.

        2. A Minion*

          What if she’s not experiencing sexism? While every claim of sexism, racism, bigotry, etc. should be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly, not every claim is valid. Issuing a blanket prohibition such as yours means that we should jump straight from accusation to punishment because if a woman alleges sexism, it must be true. Remember the post just recently about how incompetent people often have an overblown view of their own competence? Maybe an incompetent person can’t figure out why she’s not being promoted and comes to the conclusion that it must be sexism. Would it still be inappropriate to tell her she’s not experiencing sexism?
          Don’t misconstrue what I’m saying – I’m not making any statements about the OP here. I just take issue with the assertion that it’s “not appropriate” to question a woman’s accusation of sexism. It’s not appropriate to dismiss a person’s claims out of hand without investigation, but to suggest that something other than sexism may be going on here is not inappropriate at all. It’s just a different point of view to consider.

          1. Honeybee*

            First of all, sexism and microaggressions against women in primarily male workplaces (particularly in tech) has been well-documented.

            Secondly, women (and other minorities) have a long of history of people “helpfully suggesting” a “different point of view to consider” – aka that what they’re experiencing is not really sexism, but something else. It’s one of the ways in which sexism is subtly perpetuated: many people suggest or insist that it’s something else, and it does not get addressed.

            Thirdly, there’s a lot of research showing that perceived discrimination (whether or not it’s actually happen) is still really important for the perceiver. If you think you’re being discriminated against (and often with good reason), you’re still going to react in ways that impact how people view you, and you’re still going to be stressed out and hypervigilant about it (again, often with good reason).

            And fourth, I think the general consensus here is to accept LWs’ and commenters’ interpretation of events unless there’s something that indicates otherwise. She’s in the situation; we are not. Telling a coworker or employee whose work you see every day that her lack of promotion is not based upon sexism is completely different from telling a commenter on the Internet, that we don’t know and haven’t observed working, that maybe she’s not seeing sexism. Maybe it’s not sexism, but there’s nothing implausible about it being sexism, and suggesting that it’s not sexist microaggressions doesn’t really help either.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I think that last paragraph is key for our context. We’re not in a position where we have to do investigations and determine the truth. The OP isn’t asking for help in determining whether the sexism she perceives is in fact sexism and is problematic. She’s asking about a problem where sexism is a component. It’s okay for us to take her at her word about that.

              Sure, it’s possible that she’s reading it wrong and there is no sexism, but (a) we have no way of knowing that either way, (b) it’s highly likely that she’s right, given what’s known about the prevalence of this stuff, particularly in her particular industry (where it’s been extraordinarily well documented), and (c) the crappiness of telling her she’s wrong if in fact she’s right is much more than any potential damage caused by of giving her the benefit of the doubt and assuming she’s right.

            2. A Minion*

              Maybe you didn’t read the part where I said very plainly that I wasn’t making a statement about the OP at all? My issue was with the commenter’s statement, not the OP. If the OP feels that she is experiencing sexism, I have nothing to go on other than her word and, like everyone else, I accept what she’s saying at face value.
              I also didn’t say, suggest or imply that sexism doesn’t exist or that it hasn’t been “well documented”.
              I took issue with the blanket statement that it’s “not appropriate to tell a woman she isn’t experiencing sexism.” There are contexts where you might tell a woman that and it would be entirely appropriate.

              So, let me just say this again in an entirely separate section here so it’s easy to read and interpret:

              I am NOT saying anything negative about the OP. I am NOT saying sexism doesn’t exist or that OP didn’t experience it NOR am I agreeing with the person who suggested it may not be sexism. I am taking issue with a specific statement that issues a blanket ban.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I don’t think that statement (“It’s really not appropriate to tell a woman that she’s not experiencing sexism”) was a blanket statement on every possible situation — just in our context here.

                If I’m wrong, then I agree with you that that’s impractical; there are times when you do indeed have to say (for example), “The reason you didn’t get the promotion wasn’t because of sexism; it’s because you continually miss deadlines and lose client accounts.”

                1. asteramella*

                  Yes, sorry. I was typing on my phone and could have worded my comment better.

                  IMO the urge to answer “how can I deal with this problem that is complicated by sexism?” with “It’s not sexism, stop looking for microaggressions” is itself a microaggression.

              2. Honeybee*

                No, I didn’t miss that. I was actually responding to your comment.

                I meant my comment exactly the way that Alison interpreted it – referring to our context here, on a semi-anonymous Internet blog. Of course there might be a few situations in which it is appropriate to tell a woman that she’s seeing sexism where it doesn’t exist, but that’s hardly relevant here.

            3. A Minion*

              I went back and read my reply again and even though I did specify that I wasn’t talking about the OP, I see that it could look like I was referencing her when I said “What if she’s not experiencing sexism?” when I was referencing “a woman” in a general sense, not the OP.
              So, when I went on to talk about an incompetent woman, I wasn’t implying the OP is incompetent either.
              I do get sexism. I don’t know that I’ve experienced it. If I have, I’ve just been completely oblivious to it and dismissed it. In my professional life, that is.

              In my personal life, I definitely get it. I understood from a very young age that women can’t do certain things that men do because they’re not as strong, can’t handle it, aren’t capable of it, etc. That’s how I was raised and it impacted me quite a bit. I have 4 older brothers that I love and adore and I grew up in their shadows wanting to do everything they did, but I was constantly told I couldn’t do those things because they weren’t ladylike. Girls play with dolls, not trucks. Girls don’t climb trees and play baseball. Girls wear skirts, not pants or shorts. So, yeah – I get it. I would never, ever dismiss a woman’s claim of sexism out of hand, but I don’t believe in blanket generalities either.
              So, the issue is with the blanket statement, not the OP. And I apologize to the OP. I hope you didn’t take it that I was dismissive of your claims, but if you did, I am very sorry.

            4. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

              Actually, I was suggesting that she might be experiencing something like this:

              https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/stop-acting-so-surprised-how-microaggressions-enforce-stereotypes-in-tech

              Perhaps I’ve led a sheltered life, but any discriminatory attitudes I’ve witnessed in the hard-core tech field have been based on “how good are you as a developer” – gender or race or religion never comes into the picture. (Admittedly there’s been this “Gamergate” stuff of late which I totally do not understand).

              Some people are saying that microaggression against women in tech is “well-documented” – I’d appreciate some actual cites that back this up – my own efforts turned up little (except that the very notion of “microaggression” is not universally accepted). Frankly, a lot of this “microaggression” stuff seems to be almost an innate artifact of the language (would it help if we all switched to Esperanto?). So if there is any serious evidence that gender microaggression is more common in the tech field than it is elsewhere – I would be very interested in reading about it.

              1. Elsajeni*

                But that article is about sexist, racist, and classist microaggressions in the tech world. It’s oddly non-explicit about it — lots of talking about people who “don’t fit the stereotype,” little discussion of what “the stereotype” is — but it does get there, like in this paragraph:

                There have been many candidates who failed to get that one high-ranking job, promotion, or investment on the basis of an uninformed gut feeling that usually sounds like, “I just can’t imagine this person becoming the next Mark Zuckerberg or Steve Jobs.” Oftentimes, what’s truly difficult to imagine is the possibility that the next Mark Zuckerberg might be a person of color, or a woman, or anyone else who doesn’t fit the stereotype.

              2. Anonsie*

                gender or race or religion never comes into the picture

                Haha. Really? You sure about that?

                There is just a bountiful harvest of peer-reviewed research, publicly accessible reviews of said research, news and other articles discussing said research, and people’s responses to all of these above all out there already for you to harvest. If you want to argue about it, look them up and come up with a rebuttal yourself. It’s your responsibility to do your own research to back up your claims if you’re going to come in here and start arguing against a point that’s been made, alright? You can’t stroll in, make an assertion with no citations, and then insist everyone else bring offerings of journal articles to the alter of your disbelief.

              3. Honeybee*

                I do really suggest you do some reading on Gamergate, because that’s a pretty perfect example of gender bias in the industry. (Although that wasn’t so much microaggressions as overt, outright aggression).

                As for micro aggressions and discrimination against women in the tech industry, I’m going to avoid links, but I will post titles of scientific articles on it:

                “Voices of successful women advanced technological education graduates : counter narratives”.
                “Microagressions in Male-dominated Career and Technical Education Classrooms” – the research found that females experience non-verbal microaggressions, isolation, and differing teaching methods
                “Microaggressions” in engineering education: Climate for Asian, Latina and White women” – Microaggressions occur at multiple levels: at the institutional level, at the interpersonal level, and as jokes or humor that subtly deride women’s place in engineering.
                “Perceived Gender and Racial/Ethnic Barriers to STEM Success” – analysis of interviews showed themes of microaggressions, responses to microaggressions, and gender- and race-based support.

                There are more, and those are just the scientific articles about it. There are a lot of recent news articles and thought pieces about it, too. There is a reason that large technology companies are beginning to offer trainings on this topic and turning more attention to it. My own large technology company requires all employees to do a (really excellent, actually!) training on unconscious bias.

                Microaggressions are not innate artifacts of English language. Many microaggressions come from nonverbal communication anyway, but it’s totally possible to avoid them even if you speak English (or any language). There’s a really excellent book on them called Microaggressions in Everyday Life by Derald Wing Sue (one of the earliest researchers in the field, but the book is pretty accessible) if you are interested.

          2. Student*

            Specifically, it is not appropriate to question a woman’s assertion of sexism when you have no basis to do so. There is no information that one can make a judgement on, in this case – no facts of the matter whatsoever to discuss or consider.

            It makes you look defensive against and dismissive towards claims of sexism – i.e., sexist yourself.

            Would you do the same if it were a man who said simply, that his team mates were disrespectful of him? Would you say, “Well, maybe they aren’t disrespectful toward you.” Sure, it’s possible that they aren’t being disrespectful at all and anyone else would consider them normal; but you have no basis to contradict the assertion whatsoever, and it’s pretty dismissive of the person seeking help with an issue.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Euuw. That first bit was seriously, legitimately gross and uncalled for. As was the last bit. I have to wonder why you’re being so aggressive and confrontational.

      3. Kyrielle*

        Uh, “sexist microaggresions” doesn’t usually refer to “microaggressions when directed at a woman” but to microaggressions that are *specifically based on female gender and/or sexist tropes about same*.

        I say this as a woman blessed to work in places where, mostly, this didn’t happen – and I am also in tech, just fortunate – but they absolutely do happen sometimes and they *are* pretty clearly based on gender then.

        Remember, we tend to assume the OP’s information is accurate when incomplete here, too. :)

      5. Wanna-Alp*

        With regards to your first paragraph, discounting the lived experiences of women is itself a gender-related microaggression. Your own words are not exactly strengthening your case.

        Bazinga.

      6. Oryx*

        I….don’t even know how to respond to that first part. Are you seriously telling the OP she doesn’t know when she’s experiencing sexism?

      7. Ad Astra*

        I’m… not sure you understand what people mean when they’re talking about sexist microaggressions. It’s not that she’s getting the same ego-driven BS that everyone in the office is getting and it’s somehow sexist when it’s directed at her. It’s that the BS behaviors themselves are inherently sexist in nature, no matter where they’re directed.

      8. F. (another Frances)*

        I’m new to this whole concept of “microaggressions”, but if you believe you are going to be uncomfortable because you are constantly on the lookout for remarks that you perceive as sexist, then I am sure you will find them, and it would be best to politely bow out. (yes, I am female.)

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I’m confused about the “constantly on the lookout for sexist remarks” thing here. I’m sure you didn’t mean to be dismissive, but it sounds like you’re skeptical that there’s actual sexism being directed at her and more like she’s going out of her way to spot it? But this problem is really well-documented in tech (and other industries).

          1. F.*

            This is a general comment and is in no way about or directed to the op or anyone else here in particular.
            I work in the construction and civil engineering industry. I work at a company with 9 women and 32 men. I am paid a fair wage for my work, as are the other women in my company. I am treated with respect, and I give respect to my coworkers.
            I find it very sad that some people must always be offended and a victim. I could be perpetually offended if I chose to be. I choose not to be.
            I can see that I am not welcome here with my non-politically correct opinions, so I will no longer visit this blog. I wish all of you well.

            1. Marcela*

              It is truly a pity you didn’t have that early mathematical lesson about how from “I see a brown horse in a field” you can’t conclude “all horses are brown”, being in an engineering industry. If you have been lucky and never seen or suffer any sexism, that is truly fantastic. I’ve been very lucky too and the only sexism I had to suffer came from my professors in the university. But that doesn’t mean I can conclude from my experience that there is no sexism or people choose to be a victim or be offended. It’s truly sad you can’t see that.

            2. Elizabeth West*

              No one was attacking your opinion, but if you want to take it that way…..sounds like you’re suddenly offended. :P

              Maybe your workplace isn’t like that. If so, that’s fantastic. But just because you’ve never experienced something doesn’t mean it never happens. I’ve never been shot at, but I know people have that experience.

            3. lay your head down child, I won't let the boogeyman come*

              F., I wish you’d stay. If only because I could use some company. *grin*

              There really does seem to be a contingent of people on AAM who are quick to jump on anything that can be remotely taken as ‘sexism’. And then a week later they’ll join in the merriment talking about “man-buns”. *shrug* I mostly ignore it. But it does get old sometimes.

              > I find it very sad that some people must always be offended and a victim.

              I concur. And it is indeed sad.

              1. F.*

                “There really does seem to be a contingent of people on AAM who are quick to jump on anything that can be remotely taken as ‘sexism’. ” I have noticed this, too. But is it only ‘sexism’ if it is perceived as being against females. Numerous comments are made about males or older people, and they are blown off or even justified. I am encouraged to see that there are others here who find this narrow outlook disconcerting.
                I think it would help lend a little more rounded perspective to this forum in general if ALL opinions were welcomed without being put under a neo-feminist, liberal microscope. Otherwise, this forum will become just a another group of like-minded people agreeing with each other.
                I have reconsidered my decision to no longer read this blog. If anything, it gives me a perspective on what some women in the workplace are feeling, especially younger women. I also have learned useful things here (relational vs. results-oriented workers, for example) that are helping me understand life. So, yes, I’ll keep you company!

        3. Honeybee*

          I really, really don’t understand this sentiment.

          Generally, people do not like to feel uncomfortable. They don’t like to feel stigmatized, or offended, or like an outsider. Generally, people like to feel included and respected.

          So why would a reasonable person go looking for offensive remarks? Why would a person deliberately try to transform a remark that is innocuous into an offensive one, so that they can feel stressed out and worry and not feel like a full part of the team? Would people consider that folks facing this kind of trouble are not making something up, but are actually facing something real?

      9. Honeybee*

        Because people need money and jobs are difficult to find? Maybe she really likes her work and her coworkers just irritate her. She wouldn’t be the first person in the world in that situation.

        And gender-based microaggressions and sexism in predominantly male workplaces have been well-documented. That’s not saying that what Wanna-Alp is facing is definitely that, but it’s certainly “typical,” and not implausible.

      10. Artemesia*

        She probably ‘continues to work with these people’ (not after all afternoon tea we are talking about ) because it is her livelihood and tech environments are pretty much like this for women such that jumping to another job in this field is likely to bring a new collection of misogynist douche bags.

        1. F.*

          ‘misogynist douche bags’. Ah yes, I do believe that is a SEXIST remark against men. No double standard here!

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            “Misogynist” isn’t a sexist remark; it’s a description of biased attitudes. “Douche bags” isn’t unreasonable when talking about someone who is misogynist, racist, etc.

            1. F.*

              A ‘douche bag’ originally was a bag to hold fluid used to clean a woman’s vaginal area, especially after menstruation. How this has become an appropriate term to use to describe a person is beyond my understanding. Women should find this abuse of the term especially insulting.

        2. Wanna-Alp*

          Bingo.

          I could see the sexism even at the interview stage for this job, but I had no reason to suppose that it would be any less sexist anywhere else.

    10. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … I might just do it, but not drink.

      But this is annoying. I am un an usual state (for me) that many of my evenings are spoken for by recurring events some of which I feel obligated to attend because I am needed there. If this conflicted with something, I’d feel perfectly fine to say that I couldn’t lead that night because of X, but you may end up leading another night.

      I guess, really, you need to decide if you want to do this or not. If you do go, can you go for only an hour and not drink and not cause negative ripples?

      Also it is totally fair to ask the guy not to do it again in the future, but still go along with this instance after being called out simply to avoid the “not a team player” label. That sucks, but if you think that’s an outcome you probably do want to avoid it.

    11. Viktoria*

      Was it a group e-mail to the whole team? I think my response would be to Reply All and say politely but firmly, “Actually, I can’t make it that night. Sorry for any misunderstanding, have fun!”

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        Yes it was a group email to the whole team, but he’s trying to avoid a “can’t make it that night” response by trying to get me to organise it.

        1. Chriama*

          I think the best option is to make a limited attempt and set your boundaries up ahead of time. Are there a few coworkers you could stand talking to for a limited amount of time? Can you prepare a few ‘safe’ conversation topics ahead of time (e.g. look up the plot to a new movie on wikipedia)? If you announce a casual “sounds fun, let’s all head to [local bar] after work on Friday, I can stay for an hour”, that might be enough. The hour would be excruciating but you can leave right afterwards, and you don’t need to take responsibility for planning the next event.

          If you really don’t want to go at all, I think replying to the email with “I’m super busy with [plans] for the next little while so I’m going to have to leave this one to you. Have a drink in my memory!” is a good way to casually refuse, but I don’t know if that will be better or worse (or neutral) for your relationships with these coworkers.

        2. AW*

          I’d just go with, “I’m sorry, that won’t be possible.”. You don’t have to say ‘why’ it’s not possible, just let them know you can’t do it.

          Any time you get a variation on, “Why not?” just say, “It just isn’t.”

          1. I'm a Little Teapot*

            Or explain that you have regular commitments outside work that really prevent you from taking part. Lots of people have caregiver responsibilities, a second job, freelance gigs, or demanding community activities.

    12. Calacademic*

      Are you absolutely certain that this was mean literally? I’m one of two women in our group and have similar kinds of dynamics. One of the graduate students sent a note out to the list that I was going to be leading Journal Club on such and such paper later in the day (I was talking to him about it at the time) but it wasn’t real. (I think the graduate student actually would have liked to talk about the paper, but no one else did.) Is it possible that B has good intentions and just executed really really poorly like my poor graduate student?

    13. LadyMountaineer*

      Heya fellow techie! That sounds pretty gross and I’m sorry that you are experiencing this. Have you been to a Women Who Code or other type of tech meetup? It might help to get some perspective and see how other women have handled this type of day-to-day situation. Personally I used to keep an excel spreadsheet when I worked on a team like this and I counted the number of positive interactions with my teammates and my number of negative ones and it helped me get some perspective on how much weight I assigned the negative to the positive. It helped me get my wits about me why learning how to navigate sticky situations.

      So, back to drinkingfest. I know this probably sounds terrible to you right now but you really should go. Having control over where you go is actually a GOOD THING. I know being voluntold sucks but on our last quarter someone chose a tequila bar and it was a hot mess so on the next outing I chose a local microbrewery that also has a daily flavored sparking water. So, I could drink one ‘real’ beer and a sparking water. After about 20 minutes say “this was a fun event to host so who does it rotate to next time?” I do this all of the time with gender stereotypical tasks “oh yeah I’m taking notes this time so who does it rotate to next?” I would commit to four after work events a year and take a deep breath and go.

      Are there other women at your company that you could form a “women in tech group” with to go out to lunch or after work? They might have some insights or coping skills.

      The next time they say something gendered just say “wow” or “that seems like a weird expectation that you have of just women” or something that discourages the behavior. If you’re having trouble being heard try revisiting the topic later one-on-one. There are times when it’s appropriate to escalate beyond that and AAM has some really good strategies.

      Good luck! Let us know if it goes or how it goes.

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        I am hoping to go to a tech women’s meet-up at some point. I have a few fingers in pies although they haven’t come to much yet.

        But I have been put off other local tech meet-ups: A has a habit of attending them.

        1. LadyMountaineer*

          Once you’re comfortable and know the meetup community in your area it will get easier to avoid A.

        2. Nashira*

          Sometimes it’s possible to drive the As away, but it does take a lot of effort *and* group support. Finding your own places to go sounds like a great idea to me. He gets to keep “his” groups and you have a good time with people you enjoy!

    14. AnonAcademic*

      I am female and in a fairly technical research role that tends to be male dominated, in a field with a big drinking culture. I agree with others that this is a clunky attempt by B to include you in the culture, and if it were me I would go. BUT, I would pick a place where you feel comfortable (say, a wine bar instead of a Coyote Ugly style dive or something). If you have any coworkers you do have a good rapport with, bring them along as allies. Even better if they have feminist sympathies and you can warn them you’re worried A will say something off-color or whathaveyou so you can tag-team the situation (changing the subject, excusing yourself to get another drink, etc.). I would try to steer the conversation to neutral bonding topics- where did everyone grow up, how did they know they wanted to work in XYZ field, etc. And I’d stay more sober than A for sure, and be prepared to excuse yourself early. I’d stay at least an hour but not be the last one there.

      Good luck!

    16. lawsuited*

      I wish I had a better solution that this, but I’d recommend going to for one drink and arranging for a friend to meet you at the watering hole because you have “plans” for the rest of the evening. The only good thing about being voluntold is that that you can say “gosh, I wish you’d said something to me first because I’m actually already seeing my friend in a play that night!”

    17. LD*

      Lots of good advice here about participating on your own terms. If your concern is about maintaining cordial relationships, my recommendation follows what others have already said….go and drink non-alcoholic drinks. If anyone complains, you can always say you aren’t comfortable driving after drinking alcohol. If they jeer, then so be it…just agree “Yes, it may be lame but it’s safe,” or “Yes, I’m a real light weight when it comes to drinking.” Or some other agreeable remark. Think about what you’d be comfortable saying if there is some good-natured teasing. Maybe you can plan to meet a friend nearby or have some other plans that would require you to leave after an hour? And when you do leave, be sure to be friendly and say bye to the people who are still there. And it might even be good to say “thanks.” Again, if it’s your intention to develop good relationships with your coworkers, saying something along the lines of “Thanks for setting this up.” or “Thanks for including me…” might be helpful. “B” may feel like this is an attempt to help you acclimate to the team. Refusing may come off as you not wanting to be a part of the team. It is absolutely your call, and again, it’s what you feel comfortable with. Just think about the tone you want to set with your team. If you participate and are friendly at least once, that might go a long way to helping you get support from some of the more reasonable teammates. If you feel like you can trust one or more of the team, share that you don’t want to make it a big deal (unless it is a BIG DEAL) but you want to get along and work well with everyone, but that “A” has made some comments that made you think he’s unhappy with you being there. Explain that you don’t want them to approach “A” but that if “A” is rude or inappropriate, perhaps they could be available as helpful barriers.
      Good luck and I’d be interested in hearing how things go after the event, whether you participate or not and how the team treats you. I wish you success in whatever strategy you choose.

    18. blackcat*

      I am in a graduate program. I am the only woman in my cohort. I am one of only three women in the department, and the other two are in a different subfield which has more women. This means that 80% of the time, I am the only woman in the room. This is a field where drinking is A Thing. It was A Thing in my undergrad department. It is A Thing at certain conferences. It is A Thing in my current grad program. The departmental fridge always has beer. My main strategy for navigating these waters is to find a good ally: an ally to whom I can complain about being the only woman. And I only ever drink if that ally is with the group. I have found that this uniformly makes me feel safer in these settings, though I will admit that I have been very lucky that there has almost always been one good dude who I could peg early on as a solid ally. (And one of these good dudes now blogs about being a feminist ally in tech, readily admitting his mistakes and looking for ways to improve. He is a Good Dude.)

      My secondary strategy may or may not be available to you or something you are comfortable with: I invite my husband along when possible. This works because he is in a related field and he is a dude, so he automatically fits into the “dude” dynamic inherent in these social gatherings. Having him there helps, and he is now friends with many of the men in my program because of this. It is also easy to say “We have to go now” when that can be said by a second person. I could see this adding an icky layer of woman being protected by her husband, but it does not feel particularly icky to me. It at least makes me feel less icky than the two really, really icky dudes who I sometimes have to socialize with. I also think I am more comfortable with this dynamic because I am a rock star in my current department.

      Good luck. I know this is hard. I know that even many dudes who mean well end up being part of the problem. Finding a thoughtful dude who is willing to do the hard work to become less a part of the problem is the best strategy. I know that might not always be an option. You have my sympathy.

  7. aNoN*

    Seeking advice regarding government hiring:

    I currently work in the private sector and am looking to obtain a position with a government agency that surprisingly seems to have a lot of opportunities in my field. This is a specialized agency and the application only allows you to have three days to finish it from the time you start. I have not yet applied in order to give myself enough time to gather the application materials.
    I recently got put in touch with a recruiter from this agency who reached out in case I had any questions. I sent some basic questions such as elaborating on the position description, duties, tasks, etc as the role description was vague. I also wanted to know more about the work culture. However, I have not heard back from the recruiter for about 3 days and think I will just go ahead and apply this weekend regardless of whether or not they get back to me. I see this organization has a women in leadership initiative that makes me think I would be a good fit so here is hoping!

    Does anyone have any advice on how to prepare myself for the government application process? I heard it is a long and tedious process and actual hiring takes a long time.

    Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Mr. Mike*

      The application is the easy part. It’s the ‘behind the scenes’ bureaucracy stuff that takes the most time as your application probably goes to the state headquarters then back and forth, blah, blah, blah. I was actually recruited for a state job and it still took nearly three months before all the paperwork was finalized.

      Good luck

      1. Brett*

        “The application is the easy part”

        Except when it is 20 pages long, wants your entire address and work history for 10 years, and asks you questions like, “Have you ever been suspended from any school for any reason? Please explain each incident on a separate sheet of paper.”

        For aNoN, depending on the level of government, the applications tend to be a combined job application/background check in one. Without knowing which type of application it is, expect to have 10 years of work and address history (including dorms, etc if applicable) and have contact information for both a former manager and former co-worker for each position. Have personal references as well as professional references ready.
        My employer actually required me to list _all_ other job applications I had filed anywhere else in the last six months too.
        Also a really good idea to have a copy of your credit report and last tax return. You may be required to list all current debts and obligations as well as your current sources of income and financial holdings.

          1. LadyMountaineer*

            Actually I didn’t have to submit that kind of detail when I was a Fed. Now I’m in a high-level city position and I had to dig out of my brain which month in 2000 I received that speeding ticket in Florida (March) but no agency I’ve ever worked for ever cared about my financial information.

        2. Mr. Mike*

          Wow… 20 pages? Is this federal or state? At any rate, I think my statement still stands (relatively). The application is still the easy part…lol.

        3. fposte*

          But Brett, we’ve established that your employer is crazy even for government. I really wouldn’t assume this was the norm; it’s not with my state employer.

          1. Brett*

            Well, basically my employer included _all_ of the craziness in one application. But every government application has the potential to want any of the individual pieces of crazy detail.
            If you only have three days to fill out the application, having all the potential pieces handy would be a good idea.
            (I actually left off several of the most crazy pieces of our application. e.g. the K-6 school records.)

            3. Nashira*

              I can’t even… I mean, how do you get that stuff? What happens if you were homeschooled? That is so baffling.

        4. Mockingjay*

          Brett is spot on the level of detail required.

          You will probably need the actual day and month for employment dates, too.

        5. littlemoose*

          I didn’t need the tax and financial info when I applied, but I don’t have a security clearance or anything. I did need to provide every address at which is I’d lived and every job I’d held for the past (I want to say) 20 years, which as a 27 year old applicant meant all of them. I would take some time to at least compile that information before starting your application, because that was time-consuming.

    2. INTP*

      I’m not familiar with government hiring, so take my word with a grain of salt. However, when I was a recruiter I never spent much time answering questions or explaining the role to people who had not even applied yet. The vast majority of applications were instant rejections (for reason of location, visa status, not fitting our job description as well as they thought they did, etc) so it just wasn’t a good time investment to spend more than a minute or two on someone who statistically had maybe a 10% likelihood of being a viable candidate. (To be frank, I also found it a little off-putting – like “Your job isn’t worth my time applying when I don’t know if it’s one that I’d be super interested in, but I should be worth your time dealing with even though you don’t know if the company would be interested in me.” I’ve sense been made aware that many people are trying to tailor their cover letters, not scoop out whether the job is worth their time in putting together an application, but that’s how I felt at the time.)

      1. INTP*

        Crap, I forgot to include my actual point. The point is that I would think other recruiters handle this in the same way, so I would not count on an answer, and would go ahead and do the application.

  8. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

    Tips for applying for seasonal retail jobs?

    I have a full-time job I love but it’s not making my ends meet and we need the extra income. I haven’t had much luck in the past applying for part-time or seasonal jobs even with 10 years of retail experience. I realize having a 9-5 eats up most of my day but I am free on weekends and holidays (like black friday!) so I don’t really understand why I haven’t had more luck. The places near me that hire seasonal all use online apps.

    1. Serin*

      In my city, the women’s networking group is dominated by managers of retail operations. You might look for a networking group, go to a meeting, and get a chance to chat with some managers in an informal setting.

    2. AshleyH*

      I would go in person. Even if they use online applications, still walk in, ask to speak to the manager, explain that you recently applied for seasonal work online, and ask if you can do anything to further your chances.

      my last job was HR for a retailer- we would get HUNDREDS of applications for seasonal jobs, and a manager just can’t effectively sort through them. If you make the effort to make that connection, they’ll seek out your application. You might also be looking too early- I know most places don’t hire Winter holiday help until October.

      Also, I used to work seasonally in addition to my FT job for a few years in a row – I would typically work 5:30 or 6pm- close and weekends, usually about 20 hours a week. It was exhausting but a lot of fun, and a good way to make money. Also, I would highly recommend avoiding clothing stores- so annoying folding stuff. The best seasonal job I had was at bath and body works!

      1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

        Oh good to know about the “too early” thing, most of my googling said to start applying in September which did seem early to me!

        I know from experience I really like that kind of work blitz- I worked at the US trials and a full time job which was just non-stop moving for two weeks. It was exhausting but also really fulfilling to be that busy but also know when the end was in sight!

      2. LBK*

        Noooo, I wouldn’t do that. Especially now while it’s back to school season, the store will probably be swamped and the last thing a manager wants to do is stop to talk to someone where the entire conversation can be summed up by “Go apply online because I can’t do anything about this in person and also I have 12 other people paging me right now for help so I’m only going to remember you as the person who wasted my time.”

          1. LBK*

            Somewhat, but it still marks the beginning of the busier season for most retail places. Either way, unless it’s a small store that doesn’t get too busy, there’s rarely a good day to bug a retail manager.

          2. Anx*

            I think it depends where you live. I never went to school before labor day all the way through college.

            I also don’t think my family ever bought supplies before school started. It always took a few weeks to get everything together.

        2. ScarletInTheLibrary*

          Exactly. When I worked in retail, the managers would ask some of us long timers to pretend to be the manager to take off some of the heat. Before online applications, I can see that stopping in would make a difference, but it is largely ineffective now. Unless it’s dead and you make an impression, managers are not likely to remember your name more than a day or so. So many times we were getting people trying to stop in and introduce themselves every hour between August and December that it doesn’t make one stand out. A lot of times, managers will only see the names of people who pass the test and can’t see if the person who chatted with the, applied. Or in some systems, those who stated they are available at certain times.

          Ever test is different, but read the values statements. Many places skew the ‘right’ answers toward the company’s values.

      3. HR Recruiter*

        Going in person doesn’t always work but managers are busy and don’t always welcome unexpected visitors. But I do agree actually talking to a manager and explaining your interest does increase your chances. Our area is holding numerous job fairs for retailers this time of year. See if there are any in your area and stop by with resumes and let them know you applied online but wanted to express your interest in person. If you can’t find any, you could try calling or stopping in person but be very considerate of the fact that managers are busy this time of year and have higher priorities.

      4. "Jayne"*

        I was a retail manager for nearly three years, and we would get a lot of walk-ins seeking to put a name with the face and all that. It was usually pretty frustrating, and I never thought once about relaying the name to the hiring manager, who I know would forget it anyway. We rarely hired based on whether we met them in person. We even had plenty giving us resumes — which usually ended up in the trash. If you weren’t in the system after applying online, you weren’t considered. There was no physical way of hiring that person if they didn’t apply online first.

        I know not all retail places are alike, but we were pretty frustrated with follow-up calls, too. The usual response was “we’re still reviewing applications” or “we’re not hiring, but your application is in our system, so when we are, we’ll look at them then.” The hiring manager told me that she decided not to hire a candidate, that she was originally considering for a position, based on the fact that he called too much. So, sometimes for retail, you just kinda have to apply and sit and wait. We chose interviews based on the scores from the test on the application.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      When I was looking at seasonal retail work, they required set availabilities, and if you couldn’t meet their random shifts’ hours, you weren’t considered. Also, they wanted you available almost full time (full time minus whatever time would actually qualify you for benefits) through the seasonal period.

      1. KT*

        This–seasonal work doesn’t usually mean a few hours a week and on specific holidays–they usually want commitments of 20-30 hours a week.

        Try Craigslist in the jobs section–smaller retailers (like mom and pops, bakeries, etc) may have more flexibility

        1. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

          I mean, I can give (and expect to give if hired) a full 20 hours- it would just have to mainly be nights and weekends. The mom and pops suggestion is a good one though!

    5. rek*

      Check the schedule of events for your local mall, if you have one nearby. Ours has a job fair in mid-Fall specifically for mall stores hiring for the holidays. (Not sure of the time frame – maybe early October?) Like many job fairs it’s something of a zoo, but you do get a chance to identify stores that are hiring and you get to speak to someone in person.

    6. LeahS*

      Best: Had my first few solo shifts as a retail (assistant) manager. By the third day doing the office work solo, I was able to complete everything without my notes. I feel like I’m starting to understand what’s going on, at least a little.

      Worst: I’ve never done anything like this before, and I feel overwhelmed a lot.

      My new boss just doesn’t understand how my brain works at all, and sounds so irritated when I try to ask about stuff that I have just stopped asking. I know this is baaaad in the long run, but *huge sigh* followed by “I don’t understand what you’re asking” and *huge sigh* “What?” are not exactly encouraging responses when asking questions.

      And it goes both ways. I often have no freaking clue what she’s trying to say to me. It’s like my brain works in a clockwise direction and hers is going counter-clockwise. I feel bad for her, I am intelligent, but am not an easy person try to teach. Once it all clicks, I’m golden, but at this point she’s gotta think I’m hopeless…

      1. LeahS*

        Woah that was not supposed to go there!

        My advice to you would be to just stop in and ask for an application. Asking for a manager isn’t always a good idea- they are usually busy. But even if they just point you in the direction of an online app, if you are friendly to the person you talk to they are likely to remember and say something to the manager. Make sure you introduce yourself! There have been many times I’ve mentioned to my boss that someone came in asking for an application, seemed great, and passed on the name of that person. Also be sure to put down any and all hours you’d be willing to work on your application. Good luck!

    7. WLE*

      Perhaps it’s that they think you have too much experience and would be unhappy with what they’re willing to pay. I agree with what others have said. Definitely try dropping by.

    8. littlemoose*

      My two cents from working retail a few years ago – our applications had moved exclusively online, so we just told any in-person applicants to go there, and we usually started hiring for the holiday season around early October.

    9. KateAldasse*

      Retail supervisor here. Do start applying now. By the time your application gets through the online hiring system, and then a manager finally looks at the printout, and then they schedule interviews, then background checks/drug testing, then new employee orientation, it *will* be October by the time you actually start. Also, for seasonal employees the main thing we look for is availability. Check out the stores’ closing times and see if you can find out if they have extended hours closer to the holidays. If you say you can work their regular hours, they might assume you can’t work the extended hours and you won’t be considered.

  9. Biglaw Stormtrooper*

    Hello! For any lawyers out there–I’ve been fortunate enough to get a couple of judicial clerkship interviews (for federal district courts), and I’m not entirely sure how to go about preparing for them. I know that I should have answers to questions like “why do you want to clerk?” and “why do you want to move to x city?” and do some research on the judge’s opinions, but other than that, I’m pretty much flying blind. I am also terrified of being asked a lot of substantive legal questions–obviously I have to deal with those in my day to day life, but I usually have the benefit of having a database in front of me when I have to answer them. Also, what types of questions should I be asking? Any advice would be much appreciated!

    1. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

      It really varies from judge to judge and a lot of what they’re looking for is based on whether you’re a good “fit” (someone they can easily work with). I externed for a federal judge in law school and then decided to clerk for a state judge after, the judge I ended up working with told me that every candidate who gets an interview is exceptionally qualified so it’s really a question of who’s going to fit in well in chambers. Although it’s nerve wracking, try to be relaxed enough that your personality comes through.

      I know some judges like to put people through the wringer so maybe be able to reference a specific opinion or justice that resonates with you and why. Friends of mine were asked questions about what laws they would change and why, what they felt were the biggest flaws in the judicial system, what policy matters they felt strongly about, etc. The judge I clerked for actually turned the interview around on me and asked that I question him. I was not at all prepared for that and was certain that I’d failed miserably…so I guess, as usual, expect the unexpected?

      I also remember googling how to prepare for judicial clerkship interviews and finding a lot of helpful material, several law schools have guides and of course there are forums- might be a good start if you haven’t already done that. One of the professors at my law school was very enthusiastic about clerkships and offered to hold mock interviews with candidates who were preparing, I found that very helpful. Maybe see if you have a mentor or professor who will help you prepare?

      Good luck!

    2. attornaut*

      Be prepared to go into a lot of detail on your writing sample, student note, or any other topic you specifically highlighted in your resume, as far as substantive legal questions go. But other than that, it kind of depends on the specific judge. Sometimes it’s just a personality check to see if you’d get along, sometimes it’s more of a gauntlet.

    4. bridget*

      I’ve only done appellate clerkships (state and fed), so YMMV with a district judge. I think you should research the judge’s judicial philosophy, to the extent its available. Is she a “do justice” judge, who is looking for the right result? Or is she a “follow the law” judge, who sees her hands as much more tied in terms of flexibility? I’ve clerked for one of each, and when applicants come in who are out of touch with that philosophy, it’s usually a pretty big black mark for them.

      In terms of work environment, judges differ wildly. Does the judge prefer to work in chambers or from home when she doesn’t have hearings? Does she like to work cases out verbally and debate with clerks, or does she prefer to just see final written work product without discussion? I find that I’m much more successful in the former environment; I don’t like not knowing how my judge feels about a case until I’ve written a final bench m emo or opinion.

      Judges also vary with regard to how much they like to mentor their clerks. Some see their role as a lifelong career mentor, and really go to bat for their clerks who do good work for them for the rest of their career. Others think it’s an honor/lucky for the clerks to have such a prestigious job (true) and don’t invest any personal attention in them. Obviously this won’t be an issue for you unless you get competing offers, but if you do, I’d take this seriously into consideration when choosing a judge (and even when choosing where to apply).

      That’s all pretty philosophical – my best piece of practical advice is for each judge you get an interview with, find a previous clerk who will talk to you about the experience and what to expect in the interview. Your law school almost certainly has a clerkship committee or other database where you can find out if fellow alums have clerked for the judge. I’ve made and received several calls like that. For example, one of my judges always has a skills test – usually a portion of an opinion to review, and expects applicants in about 30-45 minutes to make it both technically perfect and give substantive feedback. With my judge, it would be bonus points if an applicant said that the opinion was wrong and the “suggestion” is to change it entirely. Other judges would have the opposite reaction, and would only want you to correct spelling errors. You need the inside scoop. Former career or long-term clerks will be the most helpful, if you can find them.

  10. Art Education*

    Thank you all for the advice last week! I’m still thinking about it, but if I do it, you are all free to say “I told you so” in a couple of years. :P

  11. CJ*

    Just venting. I’m on week 7 of the job application process. The Hiring Manager was out on vacation for 8 days and just got back in today. Just a waiting game…and I can’t get the job out of my head. Frustrating.

    1. Sydney Bristow*

      Same here, although I’m only at the end of week 3. They said they wanted to get out offers by the end of this week. But the HR person was out most of this week and the head honcho is out all this week. Waiting is the hardest part.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I interviewed for a job at the start of June, and didn’t hear a cheep out of them until this week and it was a thanks but no thanks.

    4. Rye-Ann*

      Yep, I am in a similar boat – it’s week 4 for me if we don’t count any searching I did while in school/moving (since I wasn’t able to really do it well then). It’s frustrating.

      1. CJ*

        This is just waiting on one job… I have a job I’m happy with now, but it took me 6 months of searching and interviewing straight of out college to land this one. Good luck with your search! I hope it is a quick one!

  12. Stephanie*

    I’m up early enough for one of these! Yay!

    So I started my new job (same company) back in July and it’s been sort of slow going getting me up to speed. I sort of feel like Arya Stark when she was at the House of Black and White just sweeping, waiting to do something substantial. My boss realized last night he hadn’t really been training either me or my day shift counterpart that quickly and that we were about to hit our busy season. So good is that I’ll have more to do. Bad is that I finally have to go switch to overnight hours.

      1. Stephanie*

        Eventually! I’ve been on swing. Originally, my bosses figured I’d be up to speed in a month…except my boss hasn’t really been doing much training, so the switch keeps getting pushed back (which I am fine with).

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Ugh, good luck! I was on third shift a lot when I worked in a factory and later when I worked for a food service company that had cafeterias in local factories. It was very hard for me to sleep during the day, even with blackout curtains and white noise. Hopefully you’ll get moved back at some point.

  13. AshleyH*

    Any tips for the new working from home person? My husband and I recently relocated and he will luckily be able to continue working for his old job, just doing so remotely. He’ll spend about half his week doing site visits but the other half will be spent working from home. We have a second bedroom where we can set up an office space, but does anyone have any general tips? He’s concerned about it seeming like he’s not working if he goes out for lunch or has to take the cat to the vet (stuff that was fine while he worked out of headquarters). I’m concerned about him “unplugging” and knowing when to stop for the day.

    1. UKAnon*

      One big step is having the separate space – being able to just close the door and physically leave all of your work behind is a huge disconnect. Otherwise I think it just takes some practice and getting used to.

        1. Honeybee*

          Yes yes yes. Procrastinating by “just throwing a load in” or “loading the dishwasher real quick” is not only a productivity killer; it also blurs the distinction between work and personal life and makes it more likely that you’ll sit at the desk until 8 pm because why not?

        2. NacSacJack*

          we have a rule here at work. No doing laundry, vaccuuming, quick stuff, at home while working. When you’re working, your’re working.

    2. Rubyrose*

      Hopefully his company has some type of instant messaging system that everyone uses. If so, he should use that to indicate when he is gone for lunch, vet visit, etc. It is important to let your co-workers know when you will be back. Keep that Outlook calendar up to date and use the out of office function when gone.

      Keep a set schedule; start work at the same time every day, leave at the same time. Only leave the office space when needed: bathroom, answer doorbell, get coffee, etc. Doing that will keep the temptation down to do other things. And only go into the office space when needed – no weekend peeks at the office computer.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I agree. Try to treat the extra bedroom as an office. Spend his work time there and not in the rest of the house. At “quitting time” get up, leave the office, and shut the door. Shut down the computer even. I have heard tales of people working from home who procrastinate work by doing all sorts of chores around the house or even shopping. Don’t start that or taking a quick nap or watching TV for a few minutes because all of these can be a slippery slope of bad habits which reduce work output.

        It sounds he’s worried about appearances so the best way for that is to be responsive during work hours and let people who work closely on him know when he’s running “approved” errands outside like taking the cat to the vet and when he will be back.

        1. Honeybee*

          Yes, if he’s going to working from home full-time, I would even advise making the second bedroom *just* an office and not a combined office/guest room. I’m the type of person who would “just take a quick nap” in the guest bedroom if I was sitting in front of it for hours.

          (I also definitely procrastinated by shopping and doing chores. Ugh. Terrible.)

      2. AshleyH*

        Ugh, unfortunately they do not (I actually used to work for the same company and it was a pain point for me). I believe they’re testing one now, though, so hopefully they’ll have it soon!

        Some great tips here, thanks everyone!

    3. J*

      I dunno, I never think that when telecommuters go out to lunch or run an errand. Not my business. Can’t imagine why any boss would see it differently either. Working from home is so common now.

      1. Rubyrose*

        The problem is not with the folks that do not take advantage of it. The problem is with the folks who disappear for hours on end. I have some folks where I know if they have been out for an hour (indicated on instant messaging) they will be back online within 15 minutes. I have some who show as not online for several hours. And if you call them, because there is an urgent issue, they don’t answer their phones. When pressed afterwards, the excuses can be entertaining.

        At best, it is a common courtesy issue. When you are in the office you will probably let someone know verbally that you are running an errand. Same courtesy is needed when working from home, just a different way of doing it.

        At worst, there is a performance issue and unwillingness to work effectively with your teammates. And if they are putting in those unavailable hours as having been worked, there is yet something else to address.

        Better to be safe than sorry, and not get the reputation as abusing the privilege of home work.

    4. K5280*

      I work from home full time and have for the past 3 years. Prior to that, I primarily worked from home for about 2 years as my last position transitioned to another state after 13 years of working in an office.

      My job is quite flexible and that sometimes does contribute to me working later into the day than I normally would if I didn’t work from home. Those are the days when I might leave for lunch or run another errand, so I think it’s a good trade-off. I don’t mind wrapping things up later in the day when it’s quieter if it means I get to battle less traffic because I ran out during the middle of the day rather than rush hour.

      What has worked for me is to be very open with my team about my schedule. I manage three other people who also work from home and have varying schedules. We start out every morning with an email chain that continues throughout the day. We talk about what we’re working on, what our availability is (“I’ll be here and working until 4p today.”), the times we’ll be unavailable (“I need to head downtown by 10:45 for a lunch meeting at 11:30 with the client and should be back no later than 1:30. Please call or text my cell if you need me during that time.”), when we step out for lunch (I’m going to grab lunch and walk the dog – I’ll be back and working by noon.”) and when we wrap up for the day.

      I LOVE working from home and manage to do so very easily except when I’m on AAM, that is!!!

    5. Koko*

      Definitely get up, make the bed, put on clothes that would be appropriate for going out into the world, and then go to the home office space. (Clothes don’t have to be office-appropriate, just 7/11 appropriate – a hoodie and jeans would be fine.)

      I work from home regularly and some mornings I used to skip getting showered/dressed and just pull my laptop into bed with me. I don’t it much anymore because I noticed I was more inclined to start surfing the web when I was using my laptop in bed, or even at a desk but still wearing my pajamas. Something about making the bed (to signal there’s no returning to it), changing into appropriate clothes (to signal you’re ready to interact with the outside world, even if they can’t see you), and entering the office space (to signal work has begun) just really helps me to transition into working-mode. It’s probably some sort of Pavlovian conditioning/association at play.

      Also second what Rubyrose said about being available on chat and using his Away indicator whenever he has to step out. I am really bad about setting my IM to “away” when I’m in the office and go to lunch, but I religiously set it when I’m working from home because I don’t ever want someone to IM me and not get a response for 30 minutes and think I must never actually be at my computer.

      Assuming that his company uses an Outlook or shared calendar system, he may consider any time he’s not going to be available during core work hours, in addition to marking himself as “unavailable/OOO” on his own calendar, he also send a “meeting” invite to the colleagues he works most closely with (routine daily contact). Give it a name like “Fergus at parent-teacher conference” and set it to show as “available” so when they accept it, it doesn’t block off their own calendars, but then they can see at a glance on their own calendar, “Ah, Fergus won’t be starting until 11 today, that’s why he’s not on IM/answering my email yet.”

      As for knowing when to stop – well, this is a combination of personal preference and sticking to your guns. I actually work very long hours when I work from home, but after about 6pm I work with much less focus. I’ll take a long break for dinner around 6, then return to work around 7:30 or 8 while watching TV, etc. I do this because I like my work and I see my at-home day as my chance to be uber-productive, and I find that I can make a lot of progress on my projects during those quiet evening hours when nobody else is emailing me.

      To that end, I’d recommend that even if he keeps working into the evening, he doesn’t answer most emails that come in after core hours. Even if like me, he enjoys getting ahead on projects in the evening, he doesn’t want to set a precedent that he has gaping evening availability or it will stop being a choice. Occasionally saying, “I happened to see your email while I was making dinner, here’s the quick answer you need:” is fine, but for the most part, wait until morning to answer emails that came in after COB. I’m more relaxed about sending emails afterhours than I am about answering them…someone it seems like less of an invitation to expect me to be available at night when I’m sending emails about my own progress on my own projects than when I’m responding to a request. But he should pay attention to his company culture there – if nobody else sends a lot of afterhours emails, he probably shouldn’t either.

      1. littlemoose*

        I second all of that. Getting adequately dressed, even if not what I would wear to the office, is a signal to my brain that it’s work time, not laze about and surf the Internet time.

      2. Honeybee*

        When I was most productive working from home, I stuck to a strict 10-6 schedule. It helped that at the time I lived with my husband, so he would be coming in from work/class around 6 and I’d get up to start preparing dinner and spend time with him. Because I wanted the evenings to relax and be with him, I focused on trying to actually work from 10-6. Sometimes I would go back and do an extra short burst of work from 9-11 or something, but it was occasional, and I still saw 10-6 as my core hours.

        When I was least productive working from home, I’d put off starting until “whenever” because I was living by myself (I’d moved for a new position) and who cared when I worked until? The paradox, of course, is that I was always working and yet never working – so I’d be at my desk at 8 pm, unable to leave because I hadn’t finished what I needed to, but stuck there because I wasn’t actually working much.

        I’m terrible at WFH, lol.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          Hee. I live alone and my job is super flexible and I constantly have to battle my inclination to start my work day at “whenever.” And that’s just for going into the office. I’m allowed to work from home but I almost never do because I get caught in the “always working and yet never working” trap more easily here.

    6. Honeybee*

      My general tip is doing a morning routine like you would if you had to go to work: getting up at a set time, brushing teeth and taking a shower, making coffee, etc. The important part is changing clothes out of pajamas into something different. It doesn’t have to be dressy clothes, of course – could be jeans and a t-shirt – but for me, the shower + dressing routine does something to my brain to transition myself over to WORK mode, even if I am working from home. Similarly, I change out of my work clothes into lounge clothes in the evening when I’m done.

      Part of the doing stuff in the middle of the day thing is psychological – if it was okay when he was at the office, it’ll probably be okay at home, too. But he could set up some emails to automatically send when he’s out at the vet or at lunch. Or he could just set it as a meeting on Outlook so it looks like he’s busy.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I’d have to do this. I might even have to leave the house so I could “commute” back to my office.

        Like, go to the corner coffee shop and read the paper, then come back and go straight to the office.

    7. Anon the Great and Powerful*

      The most important thing is to have a dedicated office in the house. Not a combination office/guest room or other shared-use space. You and other family members/friends should not be allowed in his office.

    8. Newly Remote at Home*

      This is a very timely post for me as I am starting a brand new job on Wednesday and the job is 100% remote. There will occasional site travel but it will be limited. The interview process was also remote (conference call and skype) so I have not yet met ANY of my team or my boss. I posted this question to Allison and will read this comments closely.

      I think I have a good handle on the logistics (separate room, steady schedule, etc.) I think my biggest challenge will be establishing good working relationships with new colleagues sight unseen.

      1. cuppa*

        I don’t want to get too identifying just in case, but there was some anger and destruction of company property. Oy.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          Oh man, I am sorry this happened to you. Having had some difficult conversations go bad, myself, I liked to do autopsies on the conversation. What would I do differently, what would I keep doing, what surprised me, what went the way I expected and so on. Sometimes analyzing it was helpful in minor ways. Don’t go into overkill on this, I mean maybe thinking about it for 15-20 minutes, looking for any insights you might find.
          It can be reeaaally stressful when a person gets destructive or scary like that. Do you have coworkers that you can debrief with? Or maybe just a person who witnessed the mess that would chat for a minute? Talking it out, even if it is just for five or ten minutes can be helpful, also.

  15. AnonyGoose*

    The Chicago AAM reader meetup group will be getting together tomorrow. If you’re in the area and would like to join, please email me (email to follow).

        1. CJ*

          Thanks, Alison! I feel like I had contact when a celebrity when you respond to my posts! ; )
          Now to find the Cincinnati foks!

    2. Anony-moose*

      I’m there in spirit! Bummed to be missing it (but I’m at a wedding tomorrow so I can’t really complain.) Next time!

    3. long time lurker*

      I’m in the area but missed that group getting set up. I might be interested in that kind of meet-up! How do I join?

  16. AV*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to “appear” more organized? I’ve been in my current position for about 9 months and the other day I something one of our admins said to me gave me a slight pause! We were chatting about our boss (all good) and just discussing what he likes to see in his employees, the admin pointed out how he’s a very organized man and that he looks for organization in his employees.

    Now, I’m a very organized person, but… I don’t think that I “appear” organized at work, if that makes any sense at all. My work-space is very busy, things are constantly being added to it and being removed (which is normal and fine with me)… but I’m afraid that my boss doesn’t think I’m organized because of this! What can I do to keep the natural workflow of my workspace, but appear more organized? I’m not even sure if this question makes any sense!

    1. Serin*

      Visually, people appear organized when their papers are contained — labeled trays are great for this.

      But to me the biggest signs of disorganization are less how someone’s desk looks and morethings like
      – how ready/able they are to answer questions
      – how quickly they respond to emails and how useful their responses are
      – how much I can rely on them not to lose or ignore emails

    2. CJ*

      Are you sure a change really needs to be made? Just be sure that you’re really wanting to work on appearing more organized. And organized doesn’t necessarily mean super clean desk. : ) I think there was a post or thread about this from Alison in the past.

      If you do want to “visually organize”:
      Find holders for the items that are being added/removed. Folders, dividers, trays, etc. Putting things in containers automatically makes it less busy looking. If you can’t do that, try to keep things in neat piles (consider a larger desk if necessary, but be careful that larger desk doesn’t just mean more clutter). : )
      Can things be digitized to get rid of the influx of papers? I’m not sure what you deal with, but a lot of things can be all digital and emailed (or google drived/or dropboxed/etc). Things like expense reports, forms (especially if they are not confidential, they can be done with Google forms – just email links), and other papers.
      Some of this might take trial and error or a bit of investment for setup, but can help in the long run.

    3. cuppa*

      Being able to formulate and articulate a plan and different steps in a process or project is a big part of organization to me. Being able to discuss the project as “first, we have to do this, and then we can do this” and so on shows to me that someone is organized.

    5. Jennifer*

      Unfortunately, I suspect the answer to this is “have an empty desk.” Since I like to have things instantly at hand for reference instead of having to dig through files/drawers, I look like a slob.

      1. Ad Astra*

        Having a clean desk is a really big deal in my office for some reason, and it drives me batty. When I put things out of sight, I tend to forget about them. Leaving stuff on my desk is an important part of managing my tasks. I’ve finally started using folders so that I’m not just throwing loose paper into drawers and filing cabinets.

        1. Jennifer*

          Any time I put something Away, I might as well have just flushed it down the toilet. I only put things Away if I have to hold on to it forever just in case but otherwise will never want it again.

      2. Ife*

        When I’m working, there’s stuff all over my desk. Before I go home, I put everything away in its appropriate folder/container, or at least put it in a neat stack. This takes less than two minutes on a really cluttered day. Most days, it’s like 15-30 seconds.

    6. KT*

      I am one of the people who is actually a slob and a disaster, but I have mastered giving the illusion of organization, the point where it regularly gets mentioned as a huge positive and new people are referred to me to get ideas on how to organize.

      Things I actually do that help keep me on track:
      -I am slightly ADHD, so I rely heavily on a Levenger notebook. I write down EVERYTHING. I date each page, then will write time of meetings, who was there, etc. If someone gives me a task–no matter how minor–I write it down and use a post-it tab to mark it. This could be everything from “Follow up with Wakeen” to “Email Percival about event”. If I don’t do this, those “little” tasks always slip my mind.
      -I keep a serious to-do list with several columns. Big project name, sub-tasks, task owners, due dates of each task, and status of task. After each meeting, I add that task to a running list with a deadline next to it and mark whether it’s part of a larger project. For instance, if I have a big event on Saturday, one task might say “9/11: Confirmed with Matt via email that tent will be set up. Next Steps: Call caterer to double food order (Jen to handle”)
      -As a scatterbrain, this has saved me when someone unexpectedly pops by to ask that status of a project. I’m able to quickly scan and see what has been done, what needs to be done, and who owns what parts.
      -When I run out of paper, I take out the pages and file them in a drawer with the date range and any key events/big projects that were handled during that time (i.e. July 1-August 15 2015, GIANT FUNDRAISER, volunteer event). It sounds OCD, but that has been a huge help when someone wants to know about a meeting that happened months ago.
      -I also keep a whiteboard on my wall with major events/deliverables (ANNUAL REPORT TO PRINTER, Place Event Invite orders)–this is more so other people who don’t work so closely with me can see what big things are coming up and they can see I’m on it

      Things That I do That Dont Really Help, but give the ILLUSION of helping!
      -Letter trays. I label them “in progress”, “complete”, “need approval”. I almost never use these, but people every now and again do place stuff in them and it’s one of those systems people in my company frequently cite as helpful
      -File folder and standing accordian file organizers: I hate them, but I labeled a bunch with our big events throughout the year and display them on my shelf. I have never ever used them and there is nothing in them, but people are always SO IMPRESSED to see it.

      Finally, clean space makes you look organized even when you’re scrambling. Every Friday before I leave, I straighten up. I throw out papers I don’t need, I put like items together in piles or put them away, and I leave out in a neat stack only what I know I need to work on for the next week. It makes my desk look clean but is still easy to work.

      2. Retail Lifer*

        I’m the kind of person that needs to see it to remember it, so I use notebooks, Post-Its, and a whiteboard as reminders. I just went on the Levenger site after reading your post. I might invest in one of those.

        I also have letter trays that are just there to look good. They’re labeled as to what’s supposed to go in them, but I usually just dump everything I don’t have time to file right now into them. It’s still a mess, but it sure looks better!

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          I love their notebooks! If you hand write a lot of notes like I do, they are wonderful. (They’re also great for writers.)

        2. KT*

          Staples has a knockoff of the Levenger called the Acer–they have different sizes and such and hole punches. Rollabind is another similar brand

      4. afiendishthingy*

        Now I really want to see your Serious To-Do List template. I have ADHD and struggle a lot with tracking all the tasks and subtasks for each project. I’ve been doing a bit better lately with an approximation of a Bullet Journal, but things still slip through the cracks sometimes.

        Also, I love your display of empty accordion files.

        1. KT*

          It’s just done in Word tables. There’s columns for Overall Project Name, Tasks, Task Owner, Status, and Deadline.

          Then each task within a project has a row –color coded to that project. So everything for the big January fundraiser is in purple, everything for the volunteer event is green, etc.

          I played around with it until I came up with something that worked for me and how I think. Pinterest has tons of templates/free printables!

      5. Slimy Contractor*

        These are such specific, concrete suggestions, thank you! This is a great starting guide for someone to look at and pick and choose the things from your list that would work for them. It sounds like you’re a good role model for other ADHD folks who might be looking for ways to work with that aspect of their brains.

      6. LBK*

        This is a fantastic list, and this one in particular cracked me up:

        -File folder and standing accordian file organizers: I hate them, but I labeled a bunch with our big events throughout the year and display them on my shelf. I have never ever used them and there is nothing in them, but people are always SO IMPRESSED to see it.

        I had a very intricate and impressive-looking system of folders at my old desk and in 3 years of working there I never filed a single thing into any of them. I find those kinds of filing systems really ineffective if you have ADD especially for short-term items, because as soon as you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist anymore. I’d much rather keep everything I need to do today in a pile next to my keyboard so I can’t forget it.

        I’m also a big fan of writing to-do lists on post-its for short-term items, then I have a long-term calendar I keep next to my monitor. The post-it notes are an absolute lifesaver for ADD; often when I have a ton of tasks to do in a given day and I feel like I don’t even know where to start, just jotting them down instantly makes it easy to prioritize.

    7. Not me*

      I keep getting compliments on time management and organization skills, which are average at best.

      Visibly working on organization seems to make a huge difference. I keep the surface of my desk clear. I leave a to-do list/schedule out. I keep my stack of random papers in a standing magazine file instead of flat on my desk. I have a little organizer tray in my top desk drawer. I keep my computer’s desktop mostly empty. It looks like I’m trying.

      But I spent about $5 on supplies in the Target dollar section two years ago and none of this takes any work.

    8. Dr. Doll*

      Along with all the excellent ideas so far — cleanliness. I have a team member who is kind of a disaster in many ways, and one of the ways is that their desk always has several empty water and soda bottles, scraps of paper and post-its everywhere, crumbs and such, and a lot of plastic ticky-tackies. There is a space approximately 8 x 11 inches clear in the middle. I can hardly bear to look at that desk.

  17. Dani X*

    I am posting on behalf of someone else, so while I am happy to answer any questions I might not have the answers. Basically Katherine discovered her husband Ned was having an affair. In her state you get more alimony for adultery so that is what she filed under. Now Ned is coming back and saying that if she files under Adultery he will get fired and then he can’t pay support for the little Starks and so she should change it to irreconcilable differences. Ned has more earning power then Katherine and she does need that support for now so she is very upset. I am saying this is all BS – while a company can fire for having an affair the chances of it happening is pretty small and I doubt they will go look and see what the divorce was filed under. Katherine is pretty upset about it and wants to know if there is a way to check and see if he is telling the truth. If she calls the company’s HR department will they tell her if that is a policy for them? Or is there another way she can find out. It’s not a small company – it has a global presence and it is a tech company so I doubt there is a morality issue (like say if this were a religious org).

    2. Squirrel*

      How would the company even know why he is getting the divorce? Would they even care? Would they actually look into it at all? He’s just trying to bully her into changing the reason so he doesn’t lose any money. Tell her to get a lawyer, then have her tell her soon-to-be-ex that he can direct all communications for everything through said lawyer.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Some companies still have morals clauses, although whether it’s any of their business is a topic for another discussion.

        Of course she needs to bring that to her lawyer, but my instinct is that she shouldn’t change how she filed until she has a written agreement specifying the support she’ll receive, because that could be a tactic Ned is using to try to reduce the amount of support he’ll have to pay.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, it’s absolutely a tactic, even if it’s true. And I think now is a really good time to start training herself away from listening to Ned.

          1. Dani X*

            Personally I would tell Ned he should have thought of that before he took his pants off, but I also don’t have little kids to think of so I can be harsh like that. I promised I would ask, but I also think this is a tactic to get out of paying money.

      2. Brett*

        The company might get a copy of the divorce decree when Ned files the qualifying life events for benefits purposes.

    3. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      Does Katherine have a lawyer? If so, the lawyer should have better answers to these questions (and if not, it sounds like she’s going to need one, especially with little Starks involved).

      To me, the solution here is that they reach some kind of agreement where Ned agrees to pay the higher alimony rate in exchange for Katherine changing the filing to irreconcilable differences. I have no idea what state they’re in, but I can’t think of any situation where a court would prevent a spouse from entering into an agreement to pay more than required in alimony/child support/etc.

    4. Dani X*

      Katherine has a lawyer and I will tell her to talk to him and let this all go through. I was hoping there might be a way to get the answer for sure on the side (lawyer is expensive) – but this is definitely not something to play with. I do think he is trying to get out of his obligations, and if she does change it should play hardball and write in that she still get everything she would if this were and adultery case. I was hoping someone would say “yeah – the X team would know about that – call them” but so be it.

          1. K5280*

            I’m only halfway through Storm of Swrods but that was my suspicion. Didn’t think I’d have worry about GOT spoilers on AAM, though!!!

              1. K5280*

                That helps to know it’s just speculation, thank you! My husband, who has not read the books, is adamant that I tell him nothing about them until the show wraps. I try to avoid fan sites for the same reason. I had thought about the nephew possibility the other day and brought it up to him but had to be very clear that it was just my thoughts on the subject and not anything I read.

              2. Kelly L.*

                (Sorry. I thought the speculation was well-known enough that most people would have seen it–it was everywhere for a while a few months ago, though it’s been discussed in die-hard fandom for yonks. But Alison is correct, it’s not a real spoiler, it’s a theory.)

                1. K5280*

                  No worries – perhaps I am a little slow since it just came together for me not too long ago. We were late to the series since we don’t have cable and pretty much watched all the episodes in the past year so I avoided all speculation and conversations about the show until we got caught up. I don’t want to repeat the 1-2 years of unwarranted depression I had when my friend’s son had me convinced that Darryl on the Walking Dead had died. Devious brat!

            2. KJR*

              In the middle of the first book, and I’m dying to know what you’re talking about! But don’t tell me! :D

          3. Creag an Tuire*

            She’s doing Ned a favor by getting him fired from Baratheon Ltd. I hear that company’s going through some ugly management turnover.

    6. The IT Manager*

      I suspect that’s BS ploy. At first I thought Ned might be in the military, but even then that’s rarely prosecuted unless there’s other issues in the mix. I think its highly unlikely that a company – a large global company – will care. Honestly companies don’t track their people so closely. They rely on the employee to inform them of changes in personal life like marriage, divorce, children. They’re certainly not going to find out an employee is divorcing and then go try and discover the reason for it.

      It’s so unlikely I’d tell Katherine to ignore the threat unless the affair is with someone at work or the partner of someone at work. In that case the issue isn’t the divorce, but fraternization, favoritism, and mixing the personal with business. But even then I don’t think companies will hear a rumor of Ned divorcing and go hunting for information.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This–all they care about is how the divorce will affect his health insurance and W2; they typically don’t care about the reason.

        Definitely Katherine needs to have her lawyer talk to his. She shouldn’t be doing this herself.

      2. Creag an Tuire*

        I suppose it could be a problem if Ned worked for Hobby Lobby or Chick-Fil-A or whatnot, but OP says he works for a tech company, and I don’t know of any tech companies that claim to be Deeply Religious. (It’s actually an amusing problem for anti-gay groups that try to boycott all LGBT-friendly companies and realize they can’t do it without going without any online presence at all.)

        Ned is almost certainly BS-ing, and if this an example of his behavior, Kat needs to lawyer up.

      1. Another HRPro*

        If that is the case, the company probably knows and would be terminating him. A divorce decree doesn’t matter.

        While almost all companies do have a morals clause, particularly for executives, they generally only get used when the person causes embarrassment to the company or their actions tarnish the companies image (think public affair, arrests, etc.). I seriously doubt his job would be in jeopardy for having adultery listed as the reason for filing for divorce (unless he is in the military), BUT she should talk to her attorney.

        1. Dani X*

          If that was the case I would assume the cause of the divorce wouldn’t matter – they would care about who he is sleeping with. I would be surprised if they say “well since the cause us adultery you are fired! If it had been ID then we would have just turned a blind eye”. Actually I would assume they wouldn’t care if there was a divorce at all since the problem is who he is sleeping with, not what the effect is on his marriage.

          1. The IT Manager*

            No you were clear on that. A military member getting a divorce won’t be investigated for why she’s getting a divorce either. I have heard rumor of angry spouse’s calling commanders about affairs and nothing happens. It’s really only prosecuted in conjunction with other messy stuff like theaffair partner being in the chain of command.

        3. Honeybee*

          Even in the military, they don’t automatically discharge for adultery. The Uniform Code of Military Justice addresses adultery that is not “discreet” and has a direct impact on the work of the servicemember.

  18. Retail Lifer*

    Any suggestions on a full-time job that would hire someone on quickly? The hiring process for halfway decent mid-level jobs seems to be getting longer and longer and usually lasts at least a month. I mentioned a few times that my boyfriend was laid off a couple of weeks ago, and trying to survive on his unemployment, which will be $8 and change, is going to be tough. Retail is always easy to get hired into, but there are virtually no full-time positions and they’re not going to pay more than his unemployment check anyway. Temp agencies haven’t been helpful for him thus far. Any suggestions?

    1. CJ*

      Factory line work? Hard to find openings? Depending on where you are, there are a couple of Amazon fulfillment centers opening and/or hiring. Warehouse work?

      1. Retail Lifer*

        Warehouse work is a possibility, as he’s done it before. The only concern is that they all see to be far out in the ‘burbs (we live in a downtown area) and I’m not sure if the pay would justify the drive. Someone else had suggested that to him a while back and he forgot about it, but now should be a great time because they’re all going to need extra holiday help.

        2. OfficePrincess*

          If that’s something he’d consider, this is probably the best possible time. We’re about to start ramping up our hiring and starting in mid October we’ll be offering overtime like crazy.

    2. Regina*

      No suggestions here, just sympathies. I haven’t found temp agencies to be helpful at all in 2015 either. It is SO frustrating how long the hiring process takes now for most jobs, and it’s equally frustrating how people who haven’t been on the job market in a long time don’t seem to understand (or even try to…). I put in an application for a job I am extremely interested in 5 weeks ago. Had an interview 16 days ago and I’m still waiting to hear back about whether I made the cut for a 2nd interview. They said their process takes a long time and as long as I haven’t heard from them, it’s still up in the air because they’re going to contact everyone yes or no at the same time.

      Best of luck to your boyfriend in his search!

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I REALLY wanted to get out of my current job before I get stuck working on Thanksgiving again. Even if I could land an interview somewhere tomorrow, the hiring process would probably still drag out past then. So frustrating!

    3. LCL*

      United Parcel Service? The majority of their jobs are part time, late evening or early early morning, which will allow him time to job hunt for something permanent. Working there 2AM to 5:30 or 6 got me through full time college.

    4. Sunshine Brite*

      Group homes tend to hire direct staff quickly. Around here you need a clean background, a driver’s license, and be over 18.

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        They require a special type of personality though, and can be very stressful positions (for not much money).

    5. puddin*

      These are all fairly entry level but I cannot think of too many mid-level jobs with quick turnarounds.
      Warehouse work like picking and packing.
      Driving jobs – nursing home shuttles, medical van service.
      Security guard.

      What are his skills or what job background does he have?

      1. Retail Lifer*

        His last job was pretty rare so I can’t mention it specifically, but it was an outreach-type job where he did a lot of things that an account manager might do. He’s done retail and warehouse stuff in the past.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        They pay better than many other similar places, but if it’s not full-time then he’ll be better off (financially, at least) just taking the unemployment check. I know a lot of people that have worked there, from baristas to managers, who have loved it though. It’s apparently a pretty good place to work.

        1. LBK*

          Starbucks does do tip jars, which may not sound considerable for a barista but I used to average an extra $2/hr from that and I didn’t work in a particularly tip-heavy area. I’ve heard suburbs tend to get better, usually upwards of $5/hr. Not sure what the base pay is in your area though – here it was $9/hr but it was a central city location. They do also start offering benefits at 20 hrs/wk, so even if the net pay isn’t much more than just taking the unemployment check he’d at least have health insurance if he can’t use yours. God forbid something happen, you definitely don’t want to be trying to pay a medical bill on top of everything else – one of the most common ways people go bankrupt.

    8. attornaut*

      Seasonal work at UPS, FedEx, USPS might be full time for at least a few months, and they’ll need to start hiring soon-ish to deal with black friday, christmas, etc.

  19. MF*

    I haven’t posted about my job search much on here, but I just wanted to share that I got a new job last week (yay!), and I feel like I owe a lot of it to Alison’s advice. From writing a substantive cover letter, to how to write an actually-good follow-up/thank you note, to a resume critique (when she offered it back in April), to salary negotiation and other little things along the way, my job search over the last few months was relatively painless, especially compared to last time (when I had just barely become an ask a manager reader). So, thanks, Alison, and all the commenters here for all your advice and knowledge! I’m super excited about my future position, and I can’t overstate how much I appreciate the community here and how much it’s helped me!

    3. ST*

      Congrats! This gives me hope. It bums me out to think about all the applications I sent out a few months ago before coming to AAM for advice, but I’m feeling more confident in my applications now. I’m glad it worked out for you!

    4. Dang*

      Congratulations! This community was a godsend to me also during my long period of employment and underemployment.

  20. Allison*

    I have a real problem with colleagues who send work e-mails from the car.

    If you want to check/answer work e-mail at night before you go to bed, fine. If you want to catch up before you leave for work, okay. If you want to do some work while at a cafe, or waiting at the doctor’s office, or on the train either to or from work, or on vacation, I can’t stop you. But for the love of god, stop doing it behind the wheel!

    I get that sometimes we have to make work calls from the car, and sometimes we need to fiddle with the GPS or music app, maybe we *check* messages at a red light even though we really shouldn’t. But anything that involves typing, unless it really is urgent, no! And if it’s too urgent to wait, it’s urgent enough that you can pull over to type it out.

    But I keep getting non-urgent e-mails from one colleague in particular that she sends from her phone while on her way to or from work. I’m sure she’s stopped at a red light or something, but it still really bothers me. My e-mail wasn’t important, she could have waited! Where we live, texting at a red light might not be dangerous but it is illegal, and it seems silly that she’s so plugged in to work, and so convinced she needs to be productive all the time that she’s even working while in the car to and from work. We even talked about this yesterday, she apparently didn’t know it was illegal but made some passive aggressive comment like “Ohh! Sorry, I just wanted to be productive.” NO! You don’t need to be productive while you’re driving! You’re allowed to unplug when you’re driving, and focus on DRIVING!

    Am alone in thinking that e-mail and driving don’t mix? Should I say something to my manager?

    1. CJ*

      You’re not alone. I don’t want to be killed by someone emailing work while driving…

      I don’t know if you can say anything to your manager? Maybe something like, “Jane replies so quickly to emails, but I’m concerned because it happens during the times she is normally driving. That could be dangerous for her and I’d hate to see anyone get hurt just because they were responding to a work email.”

    2. Squirrel*

      Email and driving don’t mix, but what would you actually get out of telling your manager about this? I think you run the risk of looking like a tattler, which is never a good thing. And if your manager does say something to your co-worker, she’ll get upset with you and it’ll affect your work relationship. I think this is something you just need to back away from.

      1. Allison*

        I’m sure my manager knows she’s doing this, too. She often includes things like “I’m on my way right now!” or “I’m in the car, I’ll be there soon!” But I have to wonder, if our manager has caught on, why hasn’t she said something? You’d think a manager should say “thanks, but you didn’t have to send that from the car. I admire your commitment, but I’d rather you wait until you get to work to respond to e-mails.”

        1. Squirrel*

          I agree that it is dangerous, but you realize that you’re suggesting that a company make a formal policy dictating what their employees do on their off hours (something that doesn’t actually have any bearing on the company)? It’s a slippery slope and can set a dangerous precedent. I realize that there are companies out there that do this, and I don’t necessarily agree with it in most cases. In this specific instance though, there is nothing that can actually be done to stop the employee. The only thing it will do is make her not reveal that she is in her car driving; it will not change her behavior. The OP also said the manager is likely aware of the situation, so if they haven’t said anything, why is it incumbent upon the OP to say something? I really think the OP will come off looking poorly in this situation if they say anything.

          1. Allison*

            I don’t think a formal policy is necessary, or even possible. But I think it’s a good idea for a manager to say “I’ve noticed you sometimes send e-mails during your commute, I don’t need you to work so hard that you risk a ticket and possibly a car accident, please wait until you get here (or get home) to respond to e-mails.” At least this way people feel encouraged to unplug.

            1. Squirrel*

              But that’s not your decision. You are not the manager in this instance. I don’t want to sound rude, but this isn’t really any of your business and does not personally concern you. You also risk looking like you’re trying to tell the manager how to do their job if you insist that they do something about this situation. Yes, this is dangerous. Yes, the employee shouldn’t do this. But ultimately, it has nothing to do with you. You are not the Behavior Police for your co-workers.

              1. Allison*

                OKAY, okay, I won’t say anything. It was just a thought I had, to bring it up during one of our weekly touch-base sessions as a concern, I wasn’t trying to tattle on her or tell her what to do. y main question was whether it was rational for me to be concerned about this, and I didn’t make that super clear, but I guess my concern at all makes me a busybody, so I won’t bring it up ever again.

                1. Squirrel*

                  I’m not saying you *are* a tattler or you *are* being nosey, I am pointing out that you could come across as those things to your manager. Being concerned about someone’s well being is never wrong, but I am being honest with you here. There’s nothing you can do and if you say anything, you do risk looking like all of the things mentioned above. You can always say something directly to your co-worker if you truly care about her safety. But in the context of bringing it up to your manager, I don’t think it’s a good idea.

                2. Allison*

                  I dunno man, your comments seemed to imply that by just *thinking* about talking to my manager about it made me a jerk.

              2. Allison*

                “I don’t want to sound rude, but this isn’t really any of your business and does not personally concern you.”

                People don’t normally say this unless the person they’re talking to is being a jerk and needs to be told off.

              3. TootsNYC*

                Actually, it would concern me–I’d have trouble sleeping if she killed herself because she was emailing me while driving!

                And I think I could say that directly to her.

          3. Viktoria*

            Lots of companies have device-free driving policies though, that encompass (in theory) non-work activities. Obviously it’s not enforceable if you’re texting your friend or whatever from the car on the weekend, and I don’t think it should be, but it seems like it would be perfectly enforceable to prohibit working while driving (sending e-mails is, after all, working).

            All that said, I don’t think I’d say anything to my manager. I might say something offhand to her directly, if we had a good enough relationship. “I see you’re often e-mailing from your car- I’m worried about you! Not worth risking your life for!” Ultimately, though, she’s an adult.

          4. catsAreCool*

            If someone is texting about work and gets into a crash, could that get bad publicity for the company? I think it might.

        2. AW*

          That only works when driving on company business. My employer actually has a policy about using mobile devices on driving and they specifically acknowledged that they can’t do anything about what people do on their commute. They encourage us to be safe and hope we will be but unless it’s on company business they can’t make us.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Oh my gosh this would drive me crazy too, and I wouldn’t be able to let it go. I’m not sure how I’d treat it, though, whether it should be a talk to them directly first or go to their manager.

      I’d love an update one you decide!

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It won’t kill them not to text or email while they drive, but it might kill them if they do.

      Worse yet, some innocent driver or pedestrian could be killed.

      As you can guess, I’m strongly against it, too.

    5. Charby*

      I understand your concerns; it really is dangerous to do any of those things while driving. Actually typing is of course dangerous but fiddling with the GPS or even opening emails is dangerous too. It’s amazing how much distance a car can cover in that blip of time, or what can happen on a road at the time. Most people who think they’re great at multitasking are really great at switching back and forth between tasks seamlessly — which is NOT the same thing as literally working on two separate tasks at the same moment in time.

      My main concern about approaching a manager is that you can’t really prove that she wasn’t pulled over or at a gas station or something at the time. If she’s feeling defensive about it she can deny that she actually texts while driving and then you’ll look like a “tattler” (even if she has previously admitted to you that she does text at red lights). That’s just my two cents, but unless you can prove that she’s texting while at a red light or while her vehicle is in motion (rather than while she’s parked, at a gas station, or some other place like that) it might not be worth it to go to a manager first. I would instead keep talking to her about it at first. Try a less accusatory tone to begin with and focus on the fact that your emails aren’t that time-sensitive that they have to arrive at the office before she gets to work.

    6. Natalie*

      “Am alone in thinking that e-mail and driving don’t mix?”

      Uh, absolutely not. If I was telekinetic a lot of people’s phones would have burst into tiny pieces.

      What to do though… that’s tougher. At a minimum, I’d personally refuse to drive with her if that ever comes up. I blacklisted two of my co-workers because they wouldn’t stop emailing while driving. I’ll rent a car and drive separately rather than end up wrapped around a tree, thanks.

        1. Allison*

          I’ll be honest, I send those too if I’m heading out to my parents’ house, but usually while I’m still parked at my building, before I actually start driving.

    8. asteramella*

      It’s becoming more frequent for companies to implement formal “responsible use” technology policies for precisely this reason.

    9. Almond Milk Latte*

      Eh. I send emails “from the car” all the time.. While I’m waiting in line at Starbucks, stopping for gas, waiting in line for a bagel, etc. She may not literally be driving.

      1. Shell*

        Yes, this.

        Also, it’s possible she’s using voice-to-text functions, so she might not be texting, just talking to the phone.

    10. K5280*

      For what it’s worth, I work with several corporations that give their EEs a company phone and they must sign an acknowledgement form in order to receive that benefit. There is a clause in there they they must initial that indicates that they are required to know and adhere to the local and/or state laws governing cell phone use while driving.

    11. ThursdaysGeek*

      At our company, she could get in serious trouble for using a phone while driving. And our managers would want to know, too. You don’t use your phone for company business or in a company vehicle unless the vehicle is parked. It’s also illegal and a primary offense in our state.

    13. Beezus*

      I would talk to her directly. Texting/browsing/emailing while driving is something I feel passionate about, and I never let it go without saying something. Nothing is that important that it can’t wait until you get to your destination. People don’t think. How are the people you’re reaching out to going to feel if something happens to you while you’re doing it? Can you imagine?

    14. Honeybee*

      My commute time is my time to get engaged or disengaged from work. I don’t want to be answering emails or anything. At most, I’ll think about my to-do list for the day, but mostly I just belt out songs from my Spotify playlist and relax. And drive.

    15. Rebecca*

      I’m with you, it drives me crazy! I’ll usually reply back to the email to say something like, “No hurry! Eyes on the road!” or something like that if it’s a colleague that I have a good relationship with.

    16. AnotherFed*

      Do you know she isn’t using a text-to-speech function? Or sending an “I’m on my way now.” email while locking her front door vs. while actually driving? Heck, in my old carpool van, the deal we had all worked out was that the shotgun seat had to be the driver’s designated texter/emailer – it was a way to make more people willing to drive and reduced the competition for the front seat/made it feel more fair (it was a captain’s chair and the back was bench seating, so it was a much nicer seat).

  21. Simplytea*

    How do you deal with people who are just absolutely lack self awareness? I’m talking about, think they’re the greatest coworker ever, helps everyone, does fantastic work, and yet literally can’t accomplish any tasks given to them?

    One of my superiors is like this, but one of my previous coworkers was as well. Is there a tactful way of calling attention to this whether or not someone is your superior?

    2. fposte*

      Unfortunately, no. There is no tactful way to call anybody’s attention to being the kind of person that bugs you. And it doesn’t sound like it harms you any–it’s just really annoying.

      So what you do is get better at ignoring it–or at finding it really (privately) funny.

      1. Simplytea*

        My whole team is trying–but she takes credit for everyone’s work, talks herself up to the higher ups, and ruins everyone’s morale.

        It’s mainly the ruining morale that’s the issue–and gosh it’s so annoying when people talk about how great they are!

        1. fposte*

          Okay, that may give you a little more to work with. How does she do this? Does she explicitly diss you guys and say she did all the work herself, or does she just never say that it was a team effort? (In which case the higher ups know damn well she didn’t do it all herself, so I wouldn’t worry.) Are there other specific things she does that ruin morale, or is it basically that you feel like all your work goes to making her look good and going nothing for you?

          1. Simplytea*

            Oof, where do I start? She gets forced to do things by the head honcho and then goes around telling everyone how nice she is for taking it off people’s plates. She sends lists to our boss (the head honcho) of ALL the things she does and how busy she is when we just do our work quietly. She says we’re ganging up on her because we disagree with her and cries to the boss. She nitpicks on every tiny mistake and says “come to my office” and beats you up for something that’s very small or a one-time random occurrence. She complains to the boss that we eat lunch together and don’t make her feel part of the team when of course we’re not going to eat lunch with her when she’s above us, that’s weird.

            Every time she’s given something she passes it on to someone else via delegation. She just hired someone to do the work we thought she was doing, and at this point, we have NO idea what she does all day. In fact, when the head honcho leaves she often leaves early or talks to her husband on the phone for an hour after complaining all day about how busy she is.

            And the list goes on and on and on and on and on…

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, that sounds like more of a problem than “she talks big about herself.”

              But I thought she was your boss. If she’s not your boss, what does your boss think? Does your boss do anything with these lists of how terrible you all are, or does she shrug them off? If the boss is forcing her to do things, the boss must have her on the radar.

              1. Simplytea*

                It’s weird–I kind of have two bosses? She’s a “superior”, but I don’t report to her. We both report to the same person.

                Our boss sometimes says strange things like “you guys gang up on her” and then ignores her but also takes everything she says into account. She’s been here for like 15 years. Boss says like “she’s abrasive but she’s fair” and then says something about how she’s going to do something about it and never does. Or she says “she made us XYZ money” and that’s why she’s here. Eh. I guess maybe I’m just here to complain. Not sure if there’s anything to do, really.

                1. fposte*

                  Yeah, it sounds like something that your boss would have to manage and your boss isn’t really interested in doing that.

                  So I freely offer you commiseration, because she sounds like a royal PITA and an energy suck.

    3. Nanc*

      At OldJob I worked with someone like this. I finally took the Professor McGonagall to Gilderoy Lockhart route when she started reporting how much she was doing and how hard she was working on my project by turning it over to her and letting her hoist herself on her own petard. My department head kept pairing us up because the stuff would get done (by me!) and I finally said that I was too involved in other project and couldn’t do both and since Ms. GL wannabe was so fantastic she should take the lead.

      I had to clean up the mess, but I never had to work with her again. Alas, I am gone from that job and she lingers in another department, still in all her Gilderoy Lockhart glory . . .

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Heh heh.

        An old workplace contained someone who reminded me a lot of Dolores Umbridge. She was sweet, but a total sociopath. Except she could have given Umbridge lessons on how to slide under the radar.

  22. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    We had a visiting supplier this week and my boss did a horrible job of making him feel welcome. He didn’t bother taking him to lunch or dinner until his last night here, when my boss took his wife and 10-year-old son AND the supplier out together. He invited me and my coworker by saying “we’re having dinner tonight at 5:30, are you coming?” At 3:30 in the afternoon. No, I am not free for dinner plans with two hours notice.

    On top of that, my boss bragged about his fancy Keurig coffeemaker and said he was going to go make himself a cup of “nice Brazilian coffee” but told our supplier he was welcome to the drip coffee pot in the kitchen. How gracious to a guest.

    My boss also screwed up one of my appointments with the supplier, castigated him for not pronouncing the name of our city correctly, and yelled at us, the employees, for not doing something he had literally never mentioned in our lives. Oh dear.

    3. Anony-moose*

      This sounds like the environment where I work. Not sure if there’s really anything to be done. I had an interesting conversation with a coworker this week about how we lack a culture of gratitude and respect. It comes from the top down and as a result there’s been a lot of unchecked nasty behavior.

    4. the gold digger*

      Half of our team at OldJob was here for a week from Australia – and we scheduled NOTHING. I kept asking my boss if we shouldn’t organize at least one dinner, but he didn’t want to.

      On my own, I had invited two of my Ozzie co-workers to dinner on other visits – each of them had to be here for a month. Both of them told me that I was the only person who ever asked them to do anything in the evening.

      I was embarrassed and appalled for my office.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I was once on a business trip meeting with a team in another location, but since they didn’t like their boss, none of the proposed dinners and drinks took place.

    5. SherryD*

      The boss takes the supplier out to dinner? Shouldn’t it be the supplier treating the boss to dinner, to thank him for his business? That’s been my experience, anyway; obviously it could vary.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        Usually we do both–our supplier usually takes us to lunch and we take him to dinner as a thanks for making the trip out to see us (in a different country) and general hospitality. Considering he was here for four days and all.

  23. Random Reader*

    Vent alert!

    It’s been a rough week at work. We implemented a new system with a lot of bells and whistles: unfortunately, it’s nowhere near as user friendly as our old system and doesn’t have a lot of the old things built. My boss is a hard worker, but an awful delegator- she wants everything to run by her, but there’s so much to do and she’s in meetings all day. I currently have a 2 page long list of process type things to run by her, but it’s hard when I only get 30 minutes a day at most. When we do have meetings, she’ll push them back or get involved in other things that interrupt our meetings.

    She’s looking to me to figure out how things work, but honesty I just need more guidance from her as she will be ‘abrupt’ about things not done exactly her way. The best example is a free program that usually costs $8,000. The free system works ok, but there’s no tech support and it’s difficult to work out. I finished my meeting with my boss fighting back tears as a problem that neither her or I expected popped up and it was my fault.

    I’m exhausted from my boss expecting perfection but not giving any guidance.

    1. MF*

      Ugh, that sounds so frustrating. I have a boss who works similarly in a lot of ways (not enough guidance, expecting perfection on new processes, and it’s always the fault of employees if we’re not able to read minds), and it’s incredibly difficult to deal with.

    2. AW*

      If you just need to hear from the outside that this is crappy and unfair, well, crappy & unfair is the nicest way to put it. I would be upset too.

    3. Fish Microwaver*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. My workplace has very unreliable technology (no uniformity of computer set ups, a very flaky house designed program that we rely on heavily but is prone to crashing, taking work with it, dodgy servers etc) and no matter what, it is always operator error. It sucks.

    4. Steve G*

      mmmm I’m not an expert but it sounds like its time to start making decisions on your own and dealing with the boss later. If she is in meetings all day, maybe she will never notice the decisions you made. If she calls you out on it, explain how she is never available.

      This reminds me of past job where first boss was very busy, travelled, and didn’t have the technical expertise to discuss the issues he wanted brought to him….and so I started making the decisions (which impacted larger and larger amounts of $$$) by myself, and it worked out well

      1. TootsNYC*

        can you start defining “umbrella decisions” for her? Either flat-out in front or her, or behind her back?

        She approves one thing, and you simply apply that approval to all the thinks loosely connected to it.

  24. Courtney B*

    How do you know when you are in the wrong career versus just the wrong job? My sister is definitely in the wrong job as per her own words. The management is terrible and have allowed several employees to remain employed that should have been fired years ago. She’s been job searching for 2 years but hasn’t found anything due to the economy.

    She’s been reconsidering her career choice and thinking if she’s in a totally wrong field. If she chooses to change careers she will do her due diligence and make a careful decision. I don’t want to steer her in any direction except to think carefully and do her due diligence. For those that changed careers how do you know when you are in the wrong career versus just a bad job?

    1. Jessica*

      I changed careers when I realized that all of my friends who were working in the same field but at different organizations all had similar complaints about their organization. I realized that even if I switched jobs, the new job would probably have the same problems I had with my previous job.

      Your sister could get a new job in her same field and then change careers if it turns out that she is in the wrong field. But if she isn’t finding anything after two years, she might need to switch careers out of necessity.

      1. themmases*

        This is how I think about it too. I’m changing between two related but definitely different career tracks (from clinical research coordinator to epidemiologist).

        I found that although there were things about my job that were uniquely terrible, there were some general things about the career path that I shouldn’t expect to change even if I moved or got promoted. I figured that out by seeing what my other options were as far as job openings and pay (and whether I even got called back for these not-great opportunities), and getting involved in a steering committee at my old employer.

        Another big question is whether you want the leadership or advanced individual contributor jobs in that career track. From my committee work I saw that people who were, to me, a big deal had the same problems I did and had people below them leaving for the same reasons I was thinking of leaving. It confirmed my sense that the jobs people worked long and hard to get in that career track weren’t interesting to me.

      2. Oryx*

        “I realized that even if I switched jobs, the new job would probably have the same problems I had with my previous job.”

        This. It’s important to recognize and acknowledge what issues are inherent to a field and what is specific to a job. I spent years working in my field and always thought what left me unhappy was specific to each job, but I recently switched to a related but very different career and have none of those same problems and am much, much happier.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Though….

          I stayed at a job where I was really “done” with it because I thought, “it’ll be the same boring stuff anywhere else, only the people will be new. And I won’t know the organization at all well enough to be effective. And if I stay here, the cast of characters changes every couple of years anyway.”

          It became horribly demotivating.

          Then I got laid off, got a new job exactly like the one I had before, and even t hough the same old stuff is going on, it feels OK. I’m happy.

    2. puddin*

      My philosophy is that I should enjoy 80% of what I do for a living – the tasks, meetings, goals, people. This is the fun stuff, the things that I always like to do, things that I am good at and make me beam with pride for a job well done. Does she enjoy 80% of her role? If so, maybe its just a company move.

      The 20% I do not enjoy is a ‘normal’ amount of work pain and what I get paid for – busy work, tech problems, that one guy who is a jerk.

      Recently my 20% grew to about 60-70%. Not Good. I wrote down everything I did not like. It was depressing but I plowed through it. When I looked at the list, I could see that really I needed to switch my role more than the company. It turns out that in order to switch my role I also had to switch companies due to lack of opportunity.

      That was my process maybe it will help…

    3. Honeybee*

      I think it’s a very personal kind of thing, and depends on the circumstances of the career. I knew I was in the wrong career, but I’m having a hard time explaining why in words. I was in academia, but I just didn’t like the pressures of trying to get a job in a super-tight field; of fighting on the tenure-track; of being expected to work “80 hours a week” (which is really working probably about 50 hours and just looking busy the other 30); and the work just seemed so pointless other than teaching – which ironically was the devalued part of it. Any job in academia would’ve been like that. Besides, as I told my postdoc before I left, my postdoc was actually the best possible situation: I had a lot of freedom to decide my own projects; I came and went when I wanted; I didn’t have to teach, so I had unlimited time to work just on my research; I had a pretty generous research budget and above-average pay for a postdoc. I was still bored and restless. That was my cue.

      I don’t know how to put that in more general terms. I guess on some level I just didn’t like the tasks I’d be expected to do in the majority of jobs in that field, and I was bored and restless with the idea of doing it for the next 20-30+ years. And looking at job descriptions in the field did not make me excited the way looking at job dxs in the career I switched to did.

  25. Regina*

    I’m working on a cover letter for a really exciting job opportunity at Doose’s Market, and the job listing says to email the cover letter and resume to Kirk Gleason in HR. I know from the description that the job, however, reports directly to Taylor Doose. So should I address my cover letter to Kirk or Taylor?

    Of course, my email will be addressed to HR Kirk, and the cover letter will be a PDF attachment. So if I were to address the cover letter to Taylor, the email still acknowledges that it’s going through Kirk first. But what if Kirk has major authority in the application sorting process and then I awkwardly have the letter addressed to Taylor? Would that make Kirk think less of my application?

    1. Jessica*

      I think you are overthinking it – not that I blame you, that is very easy to do. I would address it to Hiring Manager and be done with it.

    2. Tiffy the Fed... Contractor*

      Ah, Gilmore Girls. So much nostalgia.

      And address it to Kirk since the posting said to. It’s not going to be a big deal to Taylor if it’s not addressed to him. Following application instructions is more important than extreme correctness.

      1. Regina*

        Thank you, everyone, for the input! I’ll address the letter to Kirk. I AM way overthinking this one, because I just relocated back to my hometown (lived in a expensive west coast city, wasn’t making ends meet, moved home for lower cost of living and to be by family, no job lined up when I moved, just had to get out before going completely broke) and there aren’t many job opportunities in my field here. I really don’t want to settle for something in another field, so I need to make these applications count.

    4. Allison*

      Kirk is the person who’s going to read your cover letter first, and if he likes you, then he’ll either interview you first or set up an interview with Taylor, or *maybe* he’ll send your application to Taylor to see what he thinks. But you’re sending the materials to Kirk, so address them to him.

    6. Audiophile*

      Regina, you’ve just become my new favorite for throwing in GG references. Too awesome!

      You are overthinking it a bit. Even when I know who the position would be reporting to, I generally address the cover letter to “Dear Hiring Manager” (formerly “Sir or Madam”). I usually put my cover letter in the email, unless instructed otherwise.

      1. Pretend Scientist*

        I dunno, Taylor was manager of everything in Stars Hollow. He wouldn’t appreciate it being addressed to Kirk!

  26. Jessica*

    Thank you, Alison! This week, I accepted a new job with a significant pay increase. I doubt I would have aced my application and interview without your guidance. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, advice, and time.

  27. Squirrel*

    Let’s all remember that we’re here to help each other and other readers of this website, not to make severe judgments of them, or insult them, or pile on them because we didn’t like their “tone” or their word usage or whatever. This has happened a lot lately, but it was most notable in yesterday’s thread about Jake the spying coworker. People were all over the OP’s ass for saying that she was competent and polished, and were insisting she had some sort of tone to her letter (that many people, including Alison herself, did not read at all), and then implied it was all in her head.

    Yes, there are times when it is necessary to be “hard” on an OP, and sometimes they do have a snarky/rude/shitty tone or an odd word usage for whatever reason, but there are better, more mature ways to discuss the issue with them, instead of insulting them or piling on them repeatedly. A few people in the comments section of the post even said they were hesitant to post in this open thread today because of the general feelings in the comments section, and people’s reactions to that letter. They thought they would then be attacked by people because of some sort of tone their post might have.

    I think a good rule to follow would be similar to Alison’s posts about tattling versus actually discussing a problem: Is your post constructive? Is it just there to insult/belittle/condemn the OP, whether necessary or not? Are you offering any insight or advice? Are you making an actual contribution to the general (or a specific) discussion, or just piling on? Let’s work to be helpful and informative instead of rude or insulting.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Thanks. I rarely comment on the OP in a negative way but I was one of the ones who read into her tone that way and you’re right in that it really wasn’t helpful, nor did it really contribute to the conversation in any productive way.

    3. AnnieNonymous*

      Sometimes I have to force myself not to call people’s bluffs here. There’s a difference between, “Here’s a left-field example of a situation that seems strange, but I actually have experience with this, so I’ll throw it out there,” and, “I have a little bit of general knowledge about this subject, so I’ll act like an expert and shout down people whose insights are maybe a bit more relevant.” The commenters sometimes like to pick and choose what they take at face value, and in general, I don’t always agree with the general consensus here when it comes to reading people or certain real-world situations.

      1. Steve G*

        I concur…….(which is why I only comment if I’ve actually experienced something before, which is why my comments have been ebbing because there are so many new-to-me situations).

        It annoys me in other places where people use the internet to play expert. Not sure if people do it here, because I don’t know the readers, but on another blog or two, I’ve been called out for citing facts/news stories by people who clearly knew less on the topics than me, and it is awkward, and doesn’t happen in real life, and is annoying!

    4. LBK*

      I think there can be value in presenting another opinion – I was one of the people who commented about looking at things from Jake’s perspective yesterday. However, I think it should be done with the intention of helping the OP address the situation, not for the purpose of saying the OP is wrong or that their frustration doesn’t matter. In other words, it should be more like “Here is a possible explanation for your coworker’s seemingly irrational behavior that may help inform your mindset as you speak to this person.”

      I do also think it’s okay to question the OP’s read on a situation sometimes, but I agree there tend to be a ton of not-so-helpful “but the situation could actually have been X! you don’t know from the outside!” comments. It’s especially the implied “…and therefore you should just not do anything” that seems to follow those comments that annoys me. Okay, you may not know what’s going on, but that doesn’t preclude you from asking and then addressing whatever the answer is.

      1. BRR*

        I love the alternatives people present because some are things I never have considered. But they should be phrased more as “is it possible jake is doing this” vs “wow you just put down jake, he totally has a side in this story”

    5. BRR*

      Yes thank you. I feel like I’ve been stating things and saying they’re not all inclusive and somebody replies about how there are exceptions.

      Every so often as a comment base we tend to get fiesty and need a talking to. Not sure why but over the years I’ve seen it go down this way a couple times a year.

    6. F.*

      Another thing to remember is that we all have different communication styles. Some of us are more task-oriented and tend to get straight to the point without a lot of sugar coating. Others are more relational and deliver their point in a less direct and softer manner. When someone has worked up enough anger/frustration to write in, they have already thought about the problem quite a bit and may feel they have looked at it from every angle possible. That’s when other viewpoints come in. I tend to play devil’s advocate at times without coming right out and saying I’m doing that. Emotions may be raw, and offense may be taken where none was intended, as I think happened last night. I have also noticed a trend of hypersensivity to perceived slights being encouraged in American society, especially in the media and on college campuses. As humans, we are all going to be angered/annoyed/and even insulted at times by others. The key for me is to take away what is valuable from the exchange and let go of the rest without “shooting the messenger” who is telling me something I don’t want to hear or telling it in a way I don’t like.

      1. Squirrel*

        I agree that people are definitely hypersensitive, and that’s it’s being actively encouraged (for some weird reason), but in yesterday’s post, a poster specifically asked the OP if it was all in her head, in a very snarky way, and the rest of their post came off with a negative tone as well. There is absolutely a need to hear both side of a situation and to look at things critically from all aspects, but sometimes it’s either “care trolling” or just a lesson in futility. The fact that the OP specifically said that her other co-workers noticed this behavior *and* commented on it to her suggests that she wasn’t making any of this up, or misinterpreting Jake’s behavior. It seems silly–the me at least–to question the OP in that regard.

      2. fposte*

        I enjoy a bit of devil’s advocacy myself, but I think it’s worth contemplating whether we’re being useful by offering up Satan’s position. That’s not always helpful to somebody who’s concerned or perturbed about a sticky situation, and I think sometimes we lose track of being helpful to the questioner in our enjoyment of the conversation.

        And it’s the questioners that I get a little concerned about in this. That’s a hugely vulnerable thing to do, to write in to a big audience and ask for help, and they’re usually already stressed by the situation. I can do a lot of damage with good intentions in a situation like that, so I try to remember that to be truly helpful, I need to bring awareness as well as good intentions. I don’t always manage it, but I still try.

        1. fposte*

          The other thing that occurs to me, on the devil’s advocate thing, is that if it’s more than a single comment, it can be tough to distinguish from adversariality. Bring up a point once about something the OP may have overlooked? Sure, if it’s done nicely. Post repeatedly about it? That’s not what the devil is paying anybody to do.

      3. Honeybee*

        I don’t know, I feel kind of itchy about the term “hypersensitive” as it is normally used. I don’t think hypersensitivity is being encouraged so much as I believe that “American society” is becoming more aware of and more willing to discuss slights and microaggressions that heretofore were ignored or considered “status quo” or just regular interactions. I’ve also seen “hypersensitive” used mainly against people in marginalized groups (women, racial/ethnic minorities, people with disabilities, etc.) who are reacting to perceived discrimination.

        I agree that we are all going to be irritated with others at times, but I do think that we should think critically about that irritation/annoyance and decide whether it’s necessary. Like, if I intend to play devil’s advocate,should I announce it so that the person knows that’s what I’m doing? Do I even need to play devil’s advocate – is the “devil’s” scenario a realistic one that might actually help the person in question? Answering those questions can go a long way towards reducing the chances of offending or insulting someone – because why insult someone if I don’t have to ?

        1. fposte*

          I think it’s possible to be hypersensitive, but I also think it’s possible to be hyposensitive. If somebody gets upset at something I said, I think it’s worth considering if I wasn’t sensitive enough; the glitch isn’t automatically on the side of the reactor.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I do agree that American society has become a lot better about many, many things. I can remember growing up, it was normal to hear “Didn’t your mother teach you anything?” Well, my mother was sick so no, she did not. We are now much more aware that a person may or may not have a mother or if they do that mother may or may not participate in the person’s life for any number of reasons.
          Back then I can remember the question being ask dripping with snark and disrespect, coming from an adult that was supposed to be role modeling adult-like behaviors. Okay the person looked very, very foolish to me. What was disturbing was the number of adults that felt it was okey-dokey to speak this way to a younger person. It was a norm in that time frame. I don’t see or hear of people asking this question any more.

          I think, collectively, we are much more aware of other people’s different experiences than we have ever been in history. BUT. As we see right on this forum, we (society) have a looong way to go. We have only started to begin to learn what it is like to be someone else.

  28. kbbaus*

    Hi all! I found out that my position (Benefits Analyst) at my current org will be eliminated on Oct 2. I’m looking for advice on pursuing an entry level IT Project Management role that’s open in my org. I’ve done a lot of project work in my HR career including process documentation, recruiting strategy builds, and researching and documenting our benefit practices in the 14 other countries we operate in outside the US. But I don’t have real PM experience.
    Any advice on what kind of questions I should be prepared for in an interview and what kinds of things I should highlight from my own experience?

    Any thoughts and advice would be highly appreciated!

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      Do you know the methodology they use for project management, I’d start be finding that out and then do some research around that. PRINCE2 and waterfall for example are common methodologies and if your company use either of them you should be familiar with the terminology and definitions and concepts, you can also talk about being keen to do any certification associated with the methodology you’d be working with.

      Work through the job description and find recent examples from your work history that relate to them, When you’ve undertaken the projects you mention how much responsibility did you have for the final result? how did you keep stakeholders engaged.

      I’d expect questions about getting peoples by in and cooperation, how you have negotiated bottle necks, when have you missed a deadline or failed to deliver and how you keep on top of the project tasks (workflow software, spreadsheets, emails or a note book that sort of thing)

      Above all reach out to any other project manager who will talk to you over a coffee and ask their advise, I did this for an analyst job I’d applied for and it was really useful and made my interview so much stronger.

  29. Log Lady*

    Random email thing. I know a while back there was a letter about someone being annoyed about their boss emailing them with “Please advise.” My boss used to do that, but not it’s turned into when a customer needs something, he’ll forward the email to me, and all he’ll say is “Please…” I can’t explain why it irritates me, it just does. It feels like it’s weird and pleading, and I don’t feel like it’s proper to continue with the email trail with the customers with that in the middle of it. I don’t know, maybe I’m reading into it, but I’d almost rather him say nothing.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Hah! My recent peeve is people ending emails with “Please and thank you.” You are not Ron Swanson, and it feels very condescending, like you’re assuming I’ve already agreed to the request.

      1. Log Lady*

        Hahah, to be honest, I would love to work for Ron Swanson at this point.

        I just looked back and found one he sent that said “Help…” I remember my first reaction, that I avoided, was to to email him back to ask, “What? Are you stuck down in a hole?”

    2. Sara The Event Planner*

      That is pretty weird! It’s not like it would take that much longer to write “Please follow up on this,” or even “see below.” Just “please…” comes across as weirdly dismissive IMO, like the email equivalent of a “you’re excused” hand wave. That being said, it might just be one of those weird boss quirks you have to deal with. He more than likely doensn’t mean anything by it, and doesn’t realize how strange it comes across.

      1. Log Lady*

        He comes across as strangely pleading when he’s trying to be polite when talking to you as well. Like, when giving you a task, sometimes he comes across as an exasperated parent of a teenager, begging them to do their homework, when all he’s doing is giving you a task you do multiple times a day. He’s quirky.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      It does create such a weird tone! At PreviousJob ALL of the senior leadership team had the weirdest habit of ending statements with “…”

      “I think it’s too soon in the year to take that on…”
      “Can you schedule something soon…”
      “We should ask what Bob thinks…”

      The tone in my head is like they’re trailing off because what they’re responding to is so unspeakably stupid that they can’t even punctuate the sentence. It’s like the punctuation equivalent of a grimace and side eye. It was just an odd cultural thing but it does come across as so weird!

      1. Liza*

        My sister told me she used to work with someone who would often end sentences with an ellipsis because “it felt friendlier”. Maybe your old SLT wanted to be friendly?

        1. Jillociraptor*

          Yeah, I think it does come from a desire to not appear short or overly-directive. Softens the command a little bit.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            In person conversations, a person’s voice would trail off, allowing room for another person to speak.
            Unless the was a history of other problems with the boss, I would just figure the ellipsis was my opportunity to speak on the matter.

    4. LBK*

      Oh god, my manager has a really annoying habit of using a million ellipses in every email. I don’t think he’s ever used a comma or a single period. It makes every email come off really sarcastically, like “how could you even ask me the question…”

      It wasn’t until I sat behind him while he wrote an email that I realized that’s just how he writes and not to infer a tone from it. I’d try to do the same – just act like you’re reading an email in another language where “Please…” translates to “Can you look into this?” in English.

    5. Ife*

      I’m finding this to be oddly funny. I think it’s the way it comes off as lazy and pleading (and a touch sarcastic) that makes it seem so off, plus I can almost-but-not-quite picture my manager doing the same thing.

      I would just erase the word when I replied to the chain, so it looked like boss forwarded the email without comment.

      1. Log Lady*

        I never found it sarcastic because my boss doesn’t pull of sarcasm very well at all, but the thought of it being sarcastic has be giggling now.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I can see how that would sound like pleading. I would want to write back, “but your kidnappers have NOT sent a ransom note yet”.

      I think this type of thing is a handy substitute for the real problem. I had a boss that wrote “pls do x, y and z. TY.” You are asking me to do things that take hours and you cannot even write out the word please or the words thank you? Yep. BEC stage. There were many other things running in the background that needed to be addressed and never, ever would be. The “pls and ty” were symptoms of the problem but not the problem itself.

      I think the customers will just read it as is. They emailed him. He forwarded it to you for handling and he is politely saying please to you. People who handle a lot of repetitive work together, over time tend to develop a lingo all their own, usually just a word or two that means, “The same thing I ask you for with 2,000 other people.” My boss uses the word “envelop” and I know she wants me to do the well worn path of a particular 15 step process. I don’t need her to describe the process. I just need her to tell me to do the process. (I do not make the decision if the process needs to be done in each instance, she makes those decisions.) I was the one who chose the word “envelop” to give the process a name, using the name of the process saves her a huge amount of time/energy. “Do the envelop process here.” or she can write a post-it that simply says “envelop”.

  30. Holly*

    Update on last week: I still haven’t told IT Guy that he’s being inappropriate. Mainly because I’ve had a rough week personally and just didn’t want to deal with it too. He’s kept his distance, mostly out of being busy himself, but he did come by once and say that I looked beautiful and offered to come to my house one day and help me trim my cat’s claws. The latter wouldn’t be anything if it weren’t for all the intense one-sided flirting.. sigh. And the “what’s shakin, good lookin?” line came back.

    Meanwhile, my actual boss accidentally replied to my email with the line “coming over to play with you…” which he meant to mean “coming to your desk to mess around with the ad in Photoshop with you” but you know. I replied saying “X, that doesn’t sound right – but I got your meaning!” I found it funny because I’d never think he was trying to be inappropriate. He’s super professional. He wrote me back a long, not necessary apology. I thought the comparison was interesting – one line from him and he’s bending over backwards to fix a non-issue, but meanwhile, IT Guy… sigh.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Thanks for the update…I totally understand needing to put things off in order to deal with the now. We’re rooting for you! Keep us posted.

    2. Sunshine Brite*

      Haha, IT guy sucks but your boss sounds pretty awesome. It’s so easy to make a phrase sound wrong nowadays.

      1. Ife*

        I’m a programmer. I always double-check my words before I ask anyone to do something with my (code) packages. :)

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      I hope you can draw some appropriate boundaries with the the jerk from IT. Did he seriously say “what’s shakin, good lookin?” ? because WOW! I’ve got nothing to say to that, literally nothing , that’s not a great line anywhere but is so inappropriate to say to a co-worker

      At least your boss is acting reasonably.

      2. Charlotte Collins*

        Not only is it inappropriate, but it isn’t even correct. It should be “What’s cookin’, good lookin’?” I hate it when people are offensive, but somehow it annoys me more when they aren’t even accurate…

      3. Creag an Tuire*

        “…offered to come to my house one day and help me trim my cat’s claws.”

        ಠ_ಠ
        And to think that last week I was tempted to defend him as someone who may have just watched too many rom-coms and didn’t realize his attempts to make a “meet cute” happen were making you uncomfortable.

        Now I don’t want to be in a room with him, and I’m a 6-foot tall male.

        1. Holly*

          hahahaha. Well, in all fairness, we do frequently talk about our cats. But yes, an offer wasn’t extended by me, nor an implication that I wanted/needed help. I was a bit o.O myself.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The next time the IT guy says something like that, just deal with it really matter of factly: “Ick. Please don’t say that to me.” And then continue on with the conversation. Seriously, that’s all it might take and then this will be over. And if it’s not over after that, you say “did you not hear my earlier ‘ick’? Please cut that out.” Do it now, because the longer you wait, the more awkward it’s likely to be (and the less able you’ll be to address it with an in-the-moment offhand remark).

      1. CM*

        I have to say, one of the biggest takeaways I’ve had since I started following your blog is how it is totally okay (in fact, preferred) to be straightforward and assertive, rather than playing the self-doubt mind game of ”How on earth do I approach this uncomfortable situation without telling anybody else it’s an uncomfortable situation?”

        It has made me much more confident in my own life to stop second-guessing myself when something needs to be said!

        2. Clever Name*

          Totally. I have a coworker who would constantly comment on a pair of colorful pants I have. It was weird and creepy, so one time when I wore them I decided I’d tell him to stop if he made a comment. Predictably, he did, and I said something along the lines of , “can you stop talking about my pants? It’s getting weird”. It was awkward for maybe a day afterward, but I made a big effort to convey that I don’t hate him and we’ve been able to chat or joke about work appropriate topics.

          I also credit Alison for showing how you can be straightforward and maintain friendly relations with coworkers.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh.

      I know you know this, but you NEED to nip this in the bud as soon as possible. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to draw that line, because in his mind, it looks as if your tolerating it means you welcome it.

      Your boss sounds awesome, so if you have any trouble with this creepasaurus, I’ll bet he’d have your back.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree. My wise friend said, “if you see a behavior three times, that means you have a pattern. A pattern needs to be addressed.” I have used his advice so many times. First time, is a free pass, second time is “okay, I am starting the count and this is number 2”, third time is time to have a chat.

        There are some things that you do not need to wait for three examples to speak up. Those are the things that are so clearly out of place or just plain wrong that they need addressing right away. But there are other things, where it is easier to wonder, “maybe it’s just me” or “maybe that person did not mean what I think”, etc and the waters get muddy. In those gray areas, I use my friend’s advice. I see x behavior three times and I know I must speak up on the third occasion.

        When I see it a third time, I start with a low key approach. “hey, I’ve heard you say x before, I got to wondering what you meant by that.” You can accelerate if need be. But I found that I very seldom needed to raise my level. Most people get what I am doing.

        1. A Teacher*

          Love this concept of 3 times a pattern! Need to use that in a teaching example with my students and remember it for classroom management. I think I probably knew that but you articulated exactly the way I can use it in the classroom setting. Thanks!

    6. acmx*

      “I thought the comparison was interesting – one line from him and he’s bending over backwards to fix a non-issue, but meanwhile, IT Guy… sigh.”
      You gave your boss notice about a poor choice of words but have you given feedback at all to IT Guy? Sounds like you haven’t.

      1. misspiggy*

        Because there’s no possible negative consequence from giving feedback to the boss. But giving feedback to the co-worker is going to make it clear that OP knows the co-worker is doing something unpleasant. In theory that should be fine – why shouldn’t the co-worker be called out? But women tend to get blamed in unwanted-attentions situations – so it’s natural to want to avoid bringing such a situation into the light.

  31. katamia*

    I’m having trouble adjusting to my job because it’s basically the opposite of my work style. I’ve always excelled in chaotic environments where what I’m doing changes all the time. I also freelanced before this job and absolutely loved being able to set my own hours. I never had problems getting things done or anything.

    The new job is in an office with very set hours, and I keep getting distracted just thinking about how much I want to Be Elsewhere and work on my own schedule. It’s also a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery calm, laid-back office. No chaos at all, and I do exactly the same thing every day.

    Anyone dealt with anything similar? How can I make each day less awful? (It is an objectively non-awful job with nice coworkers where I can listen to music all day and wear whatever I want, including jeans and crappy plastic flip-flops, and nobody will care. I’ve been there a month now and I’m horrified at how much I hate every day there because it’s so objectively non-awful.)

      1. katamia*

        That’s what I’ve been thinking. It’s extra frustrating because the hiring process was so intense and I really worked hard and was excited about starting after I got the job. I knew it would be an adjustment after what I was used to, but I never thought it would be this bad.

    2. Vanishing Girl*

      I don’t have any advice, but I know what you’re going through! I have the same problems at my perfectly nice, good job that is way too chill for me.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I went from Hell to something very much like this, and all I can say is that you get used to it. I got used to Hell and now, if I had to work anywhere less laid-back, I think I would spontaneously combust.

      I think there was a previous post (or a comment thread, maybe on an open thread) recently about changing up your job and making it more interesting–mixing up tasks, giving yourself deadlines, etc. Maybe you could try that. Or if you feel like you’ve mastered your daily tasks, see if you can help someone else out or learn something new–though that might not be on your boss’s agenda after only a month.

      Either way, I’d give it a little more time–not to expect that suddenly raptors will invade the office, but that you’ll see more possibilities with it than you do now, once you get to know things a little better.

      1. katamia*

        There really isn’t much to mix up. :( I have almost daily deadlines, and it doesn’t make sense to do something that’s due Friday when it’s Tuesday, and it’s literally the exact same procedure for everything I have to do, other than a weekly check-in with the person training me (the highlight of my week just because it’s something different *sigh*).

        The person training me did mention that soon after my probation (3 months) ended, I’d probably be given some new duties because they were really happy with my work (nice ego boost, but I’m not going to get bent out of shape if that doesn’t happen because I don’t care and I don’t think the new duties come with a raise), but the new duties are very similar to the old ones, and, observing the people who do both what I do and the new duties, their days look basically the same as mine.

        Right now I’m holding on to how this will be great experience for when I go back to freelancing, but most days that just doesn’t feel like enough.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I had a job that was very fast paced with lots of unrelated things going on. We used to joke that we had gotten used to it and would not be able to work in calm, orderly place.

      I think there is a lot to what you are noting here. I went to work at another fast pace job but it was no where near as fast paced as the previous job. I listened to my coworkers complain about the pace and I kept my mouth shut.

      Now I am at a fairly normal job. It feels good not to go home falling down exhausted.

      You can set daily goals for yourself, even go as far as setting hourly goals. If you do not hit those goals find out why. Maybe the goals are not realistic or maybe you need to fix something you are doing.
      Take an extra interest in what is going on at work. Maybe there is a special task you can take on. Or maybe you can figure out ways to handle more of the repetitive stuff with even higher accuracy. Turn it into a game that you play in your mind.

      After work, find things to do with your extra energy. Maybe take walks at lunch or ride a bike after dinner. Take a look at your personal life- add interesting things to your time away from work.

      This last one may or may not apply to you. Chaotic environments are kind of tricky for these reasons:
      Chaos can feel like accomplishment (is it really, though?).
      The chaos can add a sense of importance where there would otherwise be no sense of importance.
      Chaotic environments can also cover/hide bad work habits. (Not saying you have bad work habits- noooo. But things that are acceptable in a chaotic environment might be totally UNacceptable in a saner environment. For example, you could be so used to repairing coworkers’ mistakes that you have forgotten what it is like to have coworkers that fix their own mistakes.)
      Some people derive energy from a sense of constant urgency. The problem with hopping from one crisis to another like this is that it burns a person out. You might be able to tell yourself that you are no longer relying on crisis hopping to get energy to go through your day. You will not burn out the way you did with previous jobs.

      If nothing here fits your situation and it does not trigger an ah-ha! where you think of tangent things, then you might actually be in a job that is not for you.

  32. Cruciatus*

    I could really use some tips on email management! I’m now a scheduling officer for a school within a university and it’s just nonstop. I’ve received more emails in the 5 weeks I’ve been here than in probably 1 or even 2 years at my last job. They are things that need to be done but just clicking the “to do” flag doesn’t mean I’ll look at it again. I’ve been leaving things that need to be seen again in my inbox but then I get 25 more emails after lunch and I don’t go looking again. If I put them into a folder I’m afraid it will be “out of sight, out of mind.” I may need to change some behavior here as well but does anyone have any recommendations? I have folders for things that I’ve done and want to keep record of but don’t want to see anymore. But how do I deal with the new stuff? For now I’m printing stuff so I SEE IT. But now I have huge piles (and I don’t like being a tree killer but until I have a better option I think I need to do it)! At least I see the work that needs done though. Help!

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Can you set up emails to automatically go to certain folders, based on subject line, etc? That way, you can prioritize what you are looking at, and a lot will be pre-organized for you.

    2. Natalie*

      I use folders and a clean inbox. When I get here in the morning or sit down after lunch/conference call/project time I spend time going through my new emails. I address anything that can be addressed in under 2 minutes (approximately) and then drop everything else into a folder. I check my to-do folders on a regular basis. I also found keeping an “Open Items” folder was really helpful – these are things that I know I’m going to need for an upcoming project, but they’re not really an action item, per se. I found they cluttered up my to-do folder and I would get overwhelmed, so quarantining them helped a lot.

      Ultimately, though, it sounds like a lot of what you need to do is develop habits. That takes a little time, so be patient with yourself. You *just* started this job.

    3. OfficePrincess*

      I use folders and labels for everything, then, to trick the system into listing specific folders at the top of the list I name them “!To Do” “!Follow Up” etc. I also set up filters to label messages from certain senders or subject lines so I can glance down and see what came in quickly.

    4. alter_ego*

      If you’re using outlook, I keep everything that still needs to be done in a folder labeled with a type of task, and I make sure that everything in the folder is marked as unread. This means a little number shows up next to the name of the folder, which makes it easy to keep track of how much stuff is in there that still needs to be taken care of.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I work with a shared email box – we also use subfolders labelled “Done” for things that are completed but that we need a record of. Also, we use dated subfolders as needed, too.

        1. Pipette*

          You can even set up Outlook to not mark e-mails as read until you have either replied to them or marked them as read manually.

    5. Rita*

      These suggestions are based on Outlook. I use rules to send certain emails to certain folders. I have folders with thousands of unread messages because I don’t need them unless I need to refer to something that’s going on. Then I have folders that are my critical ones that have top priority. My goal for those is to keep the unread count at 0 so I can easily see and address any new emails that come in.

      Also, Categories could be helpful also, so that you can label what you need with something in addition to the Flag. You can create colors and categories that fit your needs. Rules can also automatically assign categories, for example if there’s a keyword that you see a lot with import emails it can categorize them based on that keyword.

      I hope these are helpful. I know the feeling of changes from job with few emails to zillions of them.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Categories! Yes! The one really useful tool in Outlook!

        I create a new color category tag for each task, and a corresponding folder with the exact same title. I tag emails as received, and keep my Inbox sorted by category. By separating the emails on spouts from those concerning handles, it’s easy to see what needs to be done for which task.

        I use flags sparingly – too many tags (colors, subjects, and flags Oh my!) and you can’t tell the emphasis anymore.

        When I have completed the task, the categorized emails are dragged to the folder. Instant archive.

        1. Short and Stout*

          I do this too!

          Assigning categories allows you to organize emails while keeping those that require action in your inbox; this really helps me organize my time too, as I can close up all the categories except the one I want to work on and avoid task switching as new mail comes in.

        2. Renee*

          I have about seven colored tags that I use and then I move the email out of the in-box when it’s dealt with. I also have a “To Read Later” folder for articles.

    6. Dang*

      If I have something important that comes in through email that I can’t do, I add the email as a task with a reminder. It has helped me IMMENSELY- I used to add spots on my calendar but it got soo messy and looked like I was always unavailable.

    7. Liza*

      I need more email organization myself (so I’m going to be paying attention to this thread!) but I do have one tip I can add: for emails you don’t think you need to save forever but do need to keep for a while, make a folder with the name of the month. Keep each month’s folder for three months (or whatever length of time seems right to you) and then delete it or archive it.

      Right now I have 1507 July, 1508 August, and 1509 September in my folder list. (The number is two-digit year and two-digit month, to keep the folders in chronological order.

    8. BRR*

      Not entirely helpful but I use different folders including “archive” which is just basically stuff I want to reference but don’t want it in my inbox. I also use flags and reminders. I also keep anything marked unread that I need to address. So I might have to mark it as unread. My goal is to have nothing left unread.

  33. Yellow Flowers*

    I could really use the collective AAM brain for this one!
    I have an employee (that I supervise) that has been out on short term disability for a month. This is the longest time he has been out of the office as he usually takes a week of vacation at a time. Since he was out longer, a co-worker and I had to cover some of his responsibilities. I am finding out that a lot of his work is really not good. Lots of mistakes (not sure how some of them slipped by me), things thrown together seemingly last minute when there was lots of time to do them properly, just a real mess in getting to the final product, which was acceptable. I know that I have to talk to him about it, but how do I bring that up when he is just getting back? Do i let him settle in first, then talk to him about these bigger problems? Hit him with it when he first returns?

    1. AnnieNonymous*

      There can be some legal issues that crop up if someone feels that his/her employment status might not be stable right after returning from disability leave, even if your reasons are legit.

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        but there is nothing illegal about managing the poor performance of an employee even if they are just back from disability leave not if there are genuine performance issues.

        Keeping good documents is a must in case there is a claim later but if the process is fare and reasonable there shouldn’t a problem.

        1. AnnieNonymous*

          That is definitely true. I was just cautioning against indicating too soon that the person’s job might be in danger.

          A friend of mine was recently laid off. The company had wanted to keep him, but they opted to keep someone who had just returned from disability leave, since the timing would have opened them up to lawsuits (laying off the one with the legally protected disability who only just returned to work).

          So yes, start with the assumption that things can be resolved, but also give it a bit of time before you start in with anything more serious.

          1. fposte*

            It wasn’t because it would open them up to lawsuits, though; it was because they were *worried* it would open them up to lawsuits. Those are two different things that sometimes get treated as if they were the same.

    2. fposte*

      I would wait until he settles in. But I would also consider if it’s necessary and examine the process and your supervision. If the final product ended up okay, does it matter what it looked like in the mean time and how it was completed? If it was okay because somebody else saved his bacon, what could you be doing so you would have known about that?

    3. Charby*

      Looking at the process is definitely worthwhile. I work in a field where there is a lot of emphasis on process and multiple layers of review before any one person’s work makes it to the final product. The way we get accountability is that if a reviewer finds a problem — even if it’s small — they send it back to the person who was in charge of it before to fix it. It’s possible that this employee doesn’t even know that his work is subpar because the problems are either being ignored or they are being fixed later on without letting that employee know.

      One thing that might help is to include him in that review process more — either by having him fix his own problems after they are identified or at least letting him know what he’s doing wrong. It’ll be hard to have this conversation at first — it’s important that he doesn’t feel like he’s being blindsided with ancient criticisms so I would frame it as an overall process improvement rather than a, “here’s why your work for the past several months is subpar” thing. Not only will it help this employee it will help you since you’ll spend less time correcting his mistakes and you’ll notice other problems with his work further in advance.

    4. Lizzy May*

      Not knowing why he was off is it possible that the issue could have caused some of the poor performance? I certainly don’t do my best work when I’m unwell. I’d let him settle a little and closely monitor the quality of the work he’s doing. If the problem is still ongoing then I would address it.

      2. Anonsie*

        I would wonder that as well. Keep an eye open for it going forward and maybe don’t do anything just yet. For one it may have been a temporary issue around whatever problem he’s having (even if you don’t think that’s possible due to the nature of his illness, don’t write it off as not possible) but also he’s already going to be under a lot of pressure when he comes back. Letting him get back to a normal pace is probably going to be important.

    5. BRR*

      This is tough because as mentioned, worrying about a lawsuit. I might ask HR for some guidance if they don’t suck.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like he needs to cut back on mistakes, use better timing so he can put more thought into his work and perhaps he needs some organization.

      On something this large, I have started by owning the parts that are my fault. “Bob, I should have been more clear. When you do A and B, I would also like you to do C at that same point. While you were out, I noticed that sometimes C was not done. Then I realized I had never told you to do A,B and C together.”

      This part will be easier to start with and he might adjust some of things he is doing, once he sees you are changing what you are doing. It could be that it works into a non-issue. It could be that he figured out you did not look at his work that much and now that he realizes you are, he will double up his efforts to ensure better work.

  34. Anony-moose*

    Anyone on Twitter? I’m enjoying the fact that #InAJobInterviewDoNot is trending right now (at the same time as the Friday open thread!)

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t get on it until I get home because I can’t tweet from here, but I’ll look when I do.

      If I wasn’t tired of being piled on by meninists, I’d add:

      #InaJobInterviewDoNot -roll your eyes at your interviewer when you see she is a woman.

      Yes, this happened to one of my bosses at Exjob.

  35. Stephanie*

    Broadly speaking, I’m a number cruncher at an industrial plant of one of the big shippers. A big thing I’ve been doing lately is audits on our operation to make sure procedures are being followed., including checking the load quality of the 18-wheeler loads.

    So if I see a load that is bad, I am supposed to go in the trailer and talk to the loader and mention a couple of things he can do to improve (if there’s a good load, I’ll say something good to the loader and/or the supervisor). With the bad loads….I am unsure what to say sometimes aside from “Hi, just make sure you’re following the procedures from training class to avoid injury.” A lot of the guys in the truck are just trying to keep up with the packages coming into the trailer and don’t give a rat’s posterior about proper stacking and such. I think, too, it takes a lot to get even a warning, so most have picked up not much will happen if they do a poor job.

    I’m getting my big boss wanting to see improved numbers. Any suggestions?

    1. Bend & Snap*

      This sounds really hard for you to individually influence. It sounds like some parameters need to be put in place for performance–either incentives are penalties.

      1. Stephanie*

        Ugh, yeah. It’s hard to individually influence. Big Boss just wants the trailer utilization numbers up. Now, I’m a supervisor and not necessarily responsible for all the legwork, but I do need to try and coach when I can.

        We’ve got buy in from the floor supervisors (and have a few pilot loads we’re working on). But there aren’t really incentives either way for the loaders. It’s also a heavily unionized environment (not saying that’s a good or bad thing), so I think the loaders know that they have to really f*ck up to get fired or do something unconscionable like steal or punch a coworker. One of the supervisors said it took six formal warnings to let someone go. And I think the reward for doing well is….more work. (The people who do well do tend to get promoted into better jobs, if that’s what they’re interested in.)

    2. fposte*

      I’m with Bend and Snap–incentives sound like they’d be really useful here.

      Also, what’s the difference between the loaders who do things right and those who are just trying to keep up with the packages? Are the latter slower for some reason and are therefore scrambling, and is there an efficiency that could be taught to them? Could you ask them what they’d need to make correct loading easier?

      1. Stephanie*

        So that’s what I’ve been trying to ask. Management has a stereotype (that’s, um, sort of true) of being heavy handed and screamy, so I want to at least make it seem like I’m trying to get where they’re coming from.

        Well, first, no one will ever admit it’s his trailer. “Oh, I’m just covering for someone” or “Oh this is the day shift’s. See, this wall of packages is mine.” My boss is like “Only answer you’ll ever get. You could stand there for twenty minutes, watch them load, and ask and they’d say it’s not their trailer.”

        I think it might just be a work ethic thing? I think some of the longer tenured workers also have a lot of bad habits they’ve learned and done without any consequences.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I don’t think it’s a work ethic thing. I think that no one has ever come up with a strong response to negate the power of that statement. They all know if they say, “It’s not my trailer.” then they are off the hook for whatever is wrong.

          Maybe you can find that strong response. “Well, it is your trailer right now, why did you accept the trailer in such condition? Why didn’t you tell the person before you that the condition was not acceptable?”
          Or maybe, “I know the trailer is not yours, I am asking you to fix Problem A. Will you do that?”
          This may/may not be a good idea: “Yeah, I know. It’s never anyone’s trailer. Everyone is just filling in. I am pointing out a safety issue/efficiency issue. Either ask the person who did it to fix or fix it for yourself.” In this example here you draw the problem out into the light of day, “Yeah, everyone says it’s not their trailer.” It has to be someone’s trailer. And it is impossible that EVERYONE is ALWAYS just filling in for someone. It sounds like a lot of ghosts work there and real people fill in for the ghosts who are never there. Once this excuse is shown to be no longer viable, you should start seeing differences. I am not impressed that your boss did not know to reduce the power that comes with saying “It’s not my trailer”.

          You are right, also, that if nothing happens for not following procedure then procedure may not be followed.

    3. OfficePrincess*

      No ideas, just sympathy. I’m not directly responsible for our load quality, but I am on the front lines for any blowback from the customers, and unfortunately stopping the floor to yell “Do it right, you fools!” doesn’t actually help.

    4. Beezus*

      Do you have latitude to be more assertive? I’m naturally a bossypants, so I’d be more likely to say something like, “Hey, stop, no, that heavy box is going to tip and hurt you if you load it that way, you need to lay it down” or “Whoa, wait, that stack is going to tip and get damaged, I need you to rearrange it.” I’d follow that up with more detail on why they need to do it the way I’m asking, and I’d work in a mention of the training class they should have learned this from. Words that are your friends include whoa, wait, no, stop, I need you to, you have to, you need to, you can’t, etc.

      What leverage do you have? I get that warnings probably aren’t going to happen – can you refuse to sign off on a load? Make a note of it on your audit sheet? Invoke your boss’s desire for better numbers? What about sending someone back to training if they persistently do it wrong? – nobody likes training, that could be a powerful motivator.

      You mentioned that a lot of the guys are just trying to keep up with the packages coming in and don’t have time to stack correctly, which makes it sound like the issues aren’t strictly performance/training based – that’s really important to know. Can you put some data together to show a correlation between package rate and audit results?

      1. Stephanie*

        Hmmm, that’s a good idea about comparing the audit quality and the volume. (I have data for the volume at hand as well.)

        I have some leeway to be more assertive (and they’d eat me alive if I wasn’t somewhat assertive tbh…women supervisors tend to get more pushback, unfortunately). Numbers I think are a little too academic for them to are about. Their supervisors do care about those–which seems to be the big motivator currently. I usually send out my results nightly and saw some improvement after a particularly bad night (when the Big Big Boss* emailed like “Ok, c’mon. Does this reflect your efforts?”)

        *Yeah….Big Corporate. Our management structure is definitely the hierarchical analog of those matryoshka dolls where your manager has a manager who has a manager who has a manager…

        1. Not So NewReader*

          How bold are you feeling? Maybe email big boss back and let him know that his email helped to bring on improvements. Ask him for more emails like that one. ;)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This is interesting to me, I have not actually loaded an 18 wheeler but I have been involved enough that I can kind of see what you are saying.

      Going back to the start- the boxes come down a conveyor belt(?) and get sorted on to trucks? Then you are supposed to check for load quality. I thought you were checking the items inside the boxes initially. Then I remembered where you work. So it must be loads have to be done in a particular manner, for example, big boxes on the bottom and smaller boxes on the top. And probably the boxes are fed randomly so it is a mix of different size boxes. And let’s at the pressure of “hurry up, work faster!”, also created by the company.
      So this is an on-going problem that is inherent in the system they are using and you are supposed to single-handedly solve it? (okay, I will roll with this.)

      Big Boss wants utilization rates to go up- I think this means packing the truck tighter. (oooo- is it possible to pack too much weight into these trailers?) Well, even sorting quickly one can still pack things pretty tight. Maybe you can say something on that. “Big boss is interested in getting denser loads on the trailers, do you see any good ideas on how that could be accomplished?” Draw them in to finding solutions. If you give them solutions, they may/may not use the solutions. But if they help to form ideas, buy-in might be easier.

      I really think that upper management has to be out there ahead of you, telling them this is important to do x, y and z. If you do not have the higher ups telling them first then it just makes your job rougher. I see no problem telling a boss that I need her to speak up and talk about Important Thing, in order to get people on the right page.

      Going back to the weight limit thing. Dunno if I can say this. A friend worked for Company. Company put very little into their trucks. The brakes were always marginal and in need of repair. The joke was do not be in front of Company’s truck in traffic because they may not be able to stop. You might want to find out if there are things like this going on that make the people even MORE reluctant to put a tightly packed load on the trailer. In my example here, a person could gain inroads with a crew IF that person advocated for their (seemingly) unrelated concerns about brake wear. Maybe this does not apply to your company, but my overall idea is to take a look, see how you can help them, this may help to break down some walls.

      1. Stephanie*

        So this is an on-going problem that is inherent in the system they are using and you are supposed to single-handedly solve it? (okay, I will roll with this.)

        LOL, basically. I might get my boss helping me out every once in a while.

        Boxes go down a conveyor belt, get sorted by destination and then sent to the trailers. The trailers I’m looking at will be say, a trailer of packages going to a Texas facility. And yeah…if I know what’s in the box, that’s a bad sign. :) Although when people ship marijuana (which happens all the time), it’s kind of obvious due to the smell from the plants/drug or the pungent substance used to cover up the marijuana smell (“Hmmm, this person is shipping 5 lbs of coffee or mustard seeds? Unlikely.”)

        Yeah, utilization is basically getting more density in the trailers. They had a pretty similar metric that the floor supervisors got and switched to one that’s kind of more confusing for the floor guys, but more precise for us. There is a specific method, which I learned and went to training for, just so I’d know what I was talking about.

        I like the idea of drawing them into finding solutions! The floor supervisors definitely get beat up a lot, so it can be good if it feels like they’re contributing positively and not being told they suck.

        Upper management is usually all for some new pilot metric, but it rare you’ll see them out actively championing it. *sigh*

  36. Bend & Snap*

    I have a workplace question from the consumer angle.

    My divorce lawyer blew through my $6500 retainer and produced no work. I’ve consulted with 3 other lawyers, all of whom think there’s some billing padding at MINIMUM happening with my retainer, and more likely I’ll have some recourse.

    I’ve hired a new attorney and my old one will be notified of the change next week.

    They’re chasing me for another $6500 to re-up my retainer in the meantime and it’s bordering on stalking. I’ve gotten 4 emails and 4 phone calls in the last 24 hours, sounding increasingly panicked.

    Professionally speaking, is this how lawyers act if they’re afraid a client is going to jump ship? I’m feeling stalked and stressed and since this is happening during business hours, it’s impacting my workday.

    1. Graciosa*

      Most bar associations have resources to help you in exactly this kind of a situation. Mind you, I think the simple thing to do is to just tell the firm you’re not happy with their service and are not prepared to provide another retainer. However I do understand that this can seem very stressful and hard to deal with – which is why the bar provides resources to help handle these types of issues (fee disputes, communication problems, whatever).

      But to answer your other question, no, this is NOT how lawyers generally act if they’re afraid a client is leaving. That’s another reason why alerting the bar association to how this one is handling it seems like a good step.

      Best wishes.

    2. Natalie*

      I’ve never hired a lawyer, so maybe the answer to this is obvious, but could your new lawyer tell your old lawyer to GTFO?

    3. Bend & Snap*

      Thanks both! I’m hesitant to tell them I’m done because I don’t want to tip them off that I’m having my new attorney examine their invoices. I’ve already had a couple of disputes with them over billing that they eventually caved to.

      I’ll look into the bar resources. It’s a family firm and they are coming off a little crazy.

      Natalie the new attorney will send them an official communication to that effect when my retainer check clears!

    4. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

      I’m not a lawyer, etc.

      This is nothing you couldn’t find yourself, but

      http://www.lawyerquality.com/article_fees/

      I think it kinda comes down to the retention agreement you signed when you started working with this attorney, plus have they provided you with any kind of itemized bill? I believe that in general they are required to do so – and no, they can’t charge you for it, either.

      All that said: $6500 seems like rather a lot for an uncontested divorce. Although if there was contention over child custody or assets, the cost could easily go up quickly. Again: itemized bill. At $250/hour, he’s got 26 hours worth of ‘splainin’ to do.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        I have my itemized bill and it looks grossly padded. $27 for an unsolicited 2- line follow-up email. $900 to subpoena my bank records (which I just learned isn’t even a thing because I could have just printed them off myself).

        My ex doesn’t have a lawyer yet so this was basically 2 15 minute calls, 2 hour-long meetings, 2 draft UNFILED motions and that’s it.

        1. Chriama*

          I think you should talk to your new lawyer about possibly filing a complaint with the bar association for these current guys. If they’re padding their bills and frantically demanding retainers (and if your spouse doesn’t even have a lawyer yet, there’s not much work they need to do right now so I don’t get the panicked demands for another retainer — it’s not like there’s a bunch of time sensitive work they’re doing for free right now), there’s probably something weird going on and the Bar should know about it.

          1. Graciosa*

            On the other hand, you’re paying for your new lawyer’s time, and the bar association will normally have some time of free assistance available to non-attorneys who have complaints (my state has an entire function related to billing disputes). I would explore that option first before engaging your new attorney in billable work.

            1. Anonsie*

              Yep, my second attorney told me I could handle it all easily on my own and they were right. The bar association made it really simple, no other lawyer needed.

        2. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

          > UNFILED motions

          And they’re probably based on templates, so it’s not like it took umpteen hours to write them.

          Again, I’m not a lawyer, but something to consider is: is your original attorney a solo practitioner? A Partner in a small firm? A Partner in a large firm? An Associate in a firm? Their motivation may be very different, depending.

    5. Anonsie*

      Look at the bar association where you are and see what their grievance process is. I had to do this myself under similar circumstances (though for considerably less money) and my new attorney was vehemently in favor of me submitting a complaint. In my state, they require that you contact the attorney you have the issue with and attempt to resolve it with them directly before you submit a grievance and they ask you to provide any possible documentation of that with it. You should check into it and see what the process is where you are and jump on it right away.

      Also, I don’t know how you’ve been replying to them about the new retainer, but the next time they contact you be extremely blunt. Extremely. “I am ending my relationship with Wanker and Dingdong, PLLC, effective immediately. Do not contact me about this again.”

    6. Anon Lawyer*

      Four e-mails and four phone calls is ridiculous. I am not a family lawyer, but this kind of behavior makes me sick, because it’s why people (including my own family) have such negative impressions of lawyers. I would certainly consider reporting this behavior to the entity that licenses lawyers in your state. Please know that there are a variety of bar associations, and some of them are voluntary (i.e., they don’t actually license attorneys). For example, Illinois lawyers are covered by the Attorney Registration and Disciplinary Commission; the Illinois State Bar Association has nothing to do with licensing. Also, local bar associations (google your city or county and “bar association”) frequently have resources available, including fee arbitration for unhappy clients.

      If I had to guess, your attorney was taking advantage of the fact that your soon-to-be-ex does not have an attorney (so no one on the other side to check bad behavior). I wish you the best in dealing with your situation.

  37. The Cosmic Avenger*

    I applied for a Federal job a little over a month ago, and good news is that I was referred! The bad news is that I was referred for GS-11, but not for GS-12 or 13, even though I was classified as Eligible at those two grades. I don’t think GS-11 will pay me enough to warrant a move. Does anyone know if they might interview me for GS-11, but then like me enough to consider me for GS-12? Or is that pretty much impossible by Federal hiring standards?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I don’t know about the interview part, but they can move you up the grades fairly quickly if they want to.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Thanks. I probably wouldn’t take a position at GS-11 unless I got it in writing that I would get bumped up to GS-12 at a specific date. That should be conditional upon receiving excellent performance reviews, I suppose.

    2. Being Anonymous*

      One thing you can try to do, because I know someone who did, is negotiate your step to increase your pay.

      GS-11/12/13 is the grade. Each General Schedule (GS) grade has 10 steps. Within-grade increases (WGIs) or step increases are periodic increases in a GS employee’s rate of basic pay from one step of the grade of his or her position to the next higher step of that grade. Pretty much everyone starts at Step 1, but I was shocked to learn that a colleague negotiated starting at a higher step (I think 5) which resulted in increased pay. If you are hired as a GS-11, you can try negotiating with HR if that extra money makes the difference.

      I know someone who was a GS-13 in another agency, but was hired at a 12 because of lack of specific experience, but her boss went to bat for her at 6 months and she moved up to the GS-13 (having already had three years as a 13 in the other agency and being very awesome.)

      I personally kind of had the opposite of what you want. I interviewed for a job that which could be GS-11 through GS-13 and was hired for the 11 based on my interview, but I progressed up the ladder to a 12 and then 13 after a year each.

      It’s not impossible. I think it depends on your agency, but at this time I think you go for the interview a wow them. I think the hiring committee are the ones that decides on the grade where you start, but it’s HR that can negotiate the step. You should research to be sure, though.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Thanks, that helps. The top step in GS-11 would definitely be a pay cut for me, and I’m happy where I am, so they’d probably have to offer me a substantial raise to entice me to leave.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I got an interview!!! \o/

      Well, I’ll just need to rock it like I do, then if they really want me I will try to negotiate a higher salary.

  38. CrazyCatLady*

    This isn’t a question but something I feel good about, instead.

    I know Alison always writes that interviews are 2-way streets but in spite of that, I have a hard time not saying what I think the employer wants to hear with some questions (like salary – I have a hard time not saying “but I would be willing to negotiate depending on the details of the position, when I actually would need at least what I’m making now. Also, where you see yourself in 5 years, etc.).

    Yesterday, I had a phone interview and I felt like I was very “myself” and very honest. And it felt good! I feel like I’ll take rejection less personally this way because I would just view it as a mismatch between what I want and what they want.

    1. Dana*

      I like that way of looking at it–less of an “I failed to impress them” or “I failed to say the right things” and more “I succeeded in presenting myself accurately” and “I succeeded in determining that was not a good fit for me”.

  39. ElCee*

    Anyone recently (or not-so-recently) got a job after a long and/or frustrating job search? Please share! I need to hear some success stories! :)

    1. MLM Survivor*

      I started my new job this week after a long search (over a year). I was searching both internally and externally and my new position is internal and so far, I’m very happy with the new job.

      I had several, several interviews for different positions (both internal and external). About a year ago, I was the lead candidate for a job, was promised that the offer was coming, etc….and then they unexpectedly offered the role to someone else…who happened to be a co-worker of mine. Very long story short, the co-worker and my (now former) manager conspired together to get co-worker hired instead of me. It totally damaged the relationship I had with manager, and she never could understand why I didn’t trust or respect her after that incident. Luckily, the manager moved on to another role shortly after that and I didn’t have to work with her anymore.

      Earlier this year, I interviewed for an internal position for five months…yes, FIVE months. I had several interviews and then silence. I still have never heard anything about the position.

      A few months ago, I had interviewed for a position and was offered the job…however, after asking some really direct questions, the position turned out to be not a good fit for me (i.e. financially speaking, bad work/life balance, very few benefits, etc.) so I had to turn it down. It really stinks to turn down a job when you’ve been searching for over a year!

      My advice is to keep going and keep hammering away at it. Every “no” gets you closer to a “yes.” It’s okay to be discouraged and frustrated, but keep applying for jobs. Make the applications count (quality vs. quantity).

    2. littlemoose*

      I’ll share. I’m a lawyer who graduated in 2008 and passed the bar right as the bottom dropped out of the economy. I temped for a little while, and then the temp work dried up, and I worked part-time in retail and lived with my parents. I was un/underemployed for about 18 months, until I finally got my job in early 2010. I had to move across the state for my job, but I managed to transfer back home to another office with the same company a short while later, and I’ve been here ever since. It’s a great job that I love and am fortunate to have. The job searching was a terrible, depressing time for me, especially as most of my friends were working and making good salaries while I was literally living in my parents’ basement. I felt really worthless for a while, honestly. But it did finally work out for me, and I landed in a great place. I’m very happy with my job and my quality of life. It really does happen, I promise.

      I found AAM shortly after I got my job, and promptly realized that I had been doing a lot of job search stuff all wrong. (The student job center at my law school was not giving out great advice.) I definitely believe I would have found a job earlier had I known about this website before. So definitely avail yourself of the archives and resources here. I wish you all the best of luck – I know how rough the long-term job searching is.

      1. Honeybee*

        When I read “I’m a lawyer who graduated in 2008,” I immediately though “Oh, man…”

        I graduated in 2008, too, but from college. I went straight to graduate school, but I did watch many of my friends struggle for positions for months on end. It’s so weird how the recession has fundamentally changed the way an entire generation views work and finances. There are some ways my parents (late Boomers) stretch their budget that me and my same-age friends would never.

        I’m glad you found a job you love!

    3. Dang*

      Time is flying, but I started a job this past April after a 2-year search. June 2013-2014 I was unemployed, and June 2014-April 2015 I temped a really horrible job.

      The job I ended up with is fantastic and has far exceeded my expectations. I never thought it would be possible, so there is definitely hope, just keep plugging away.

    4. Anx*

      After being unemployed for the better part of the 6 years after graduation, I did get a part-time job that I’ve held for a year now.

      I went back to college. I knew I’d be more employable as a student than unemployed (despite having less availability)

      I’m still searching, because part-time is so hard to live on. But it feels so much better than being unemployed.

    5. Voluptuousfire*

      Yep. Was laid off from a job I really liked in April 2013 and with the exception of a temp gig and a crappy job where I lasted 3 months, I was pretty much unemployed.

      I was the queen of near misses;
      I somehow made it to the last interview but never got an offer . If I did get feedback it was positive: you interviewed well, we liked you but went with someone else who had x,y or z. I was too much of not enough.

      The other week I interviewed for a job that was a good fit and I got it. It was a quick process and while it’s not exactly where I want to be money wise, it’s a great location with really pleasant coworkers. Also the company culture is very much about work/life balance, so it’s a straight 40 hours.

      I start Monday. :)

      2. Anx*

        Ah, those near misses are so tough.

        I think one of the things that is really wearing on my confidence is that I will get enthusiastically positive reactions in some of my interviews. I heard through the grapevine once that they absolutely loved me and I had a lot of insightful responses. I heard twice that my answers to some questions were the best they’d ever heard. But no offers. So while I know there was probably someone with a better fit or a more traditional-for-the-role resume or better people skills, I can’t help but to feel distrustful for the positive feedback. I’m working very hard and trying to believe it, because I know how damaging low self-esteem or a lack of trust in your abilities can be.

  40. Anony-moose*

    So I’m gearing up for quite a month. I’m on a team of three. Our boss is unexpectedly out for a month with no warning and no planning. This place is already incredibly chaotic and bordering on toxic.

    1) The bulk of figuring out what to do with her being gone is already falling on my plate.
    2) I’ve been thinking of starting to look for new jobs but have been putting it off. We want to relocate within the year but I’m not ready to start the hunt now. (I’m in a 9 month program that starts Sunday).

    So I’m just…frazzled. I have no idea how to make the next month productive without completely burning out, and I’m fighting the urge to just start looking for new jobs now even though I can’t move until June at the earliest!

    Sigh.

  41. Sara The Event Planner*

    The time has come to tell my boss I’m pregnant. Eeek! I don’t know why I’m so nervous. She’s a great boss and a lovely person, and I have no reason to think she’ll react negatively. Yet I’m still freaking out! Once it’s over, I’m sure I’ll feel silly for being so anxious.

    Here’s my question: we have biweekly one-on-ones, which are used to discuss the status of projects, goals, etc. Can I tell her about my pregnancy during that meeting, or should this be a completely separate thing? I thought about bringing it up right away (“before I update you on X, I wanted to share some personal news…”). It feels dumb to schedule a separate meeting, but I also don’t want to spring it on her out of nowhere.

    Really, any advice on having this conversation would be greatly appreciated! I’ve never done this before.

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      I’d tell her at the end of the one-on-one, so the pregnancy news doesn’t derail the rest of the meeting. Congratulations!

      1. CJ*

        I would have a hard time concentrating on anything for the rest of the meeting because I’d be so nervous and anxious about telling them. It’d be easier for me to just get it out there. Although that’s highly dependent on you and the relationship with your boss.

    2. CJ*

      Congratulations! I was nervous too, but my boss is a guy. He said “Congratulations, that’s exciting!” directly followed by “Are you coming back afterwards?” LOL

      I think telling her at the beginning of your regular meetings is fine. Although, depending on the nature of your job, there might be additional specific meetings to discuss coverage if you will be out on maternity leave.

      1. Sascha*

        When I told my director, he groaned and said “What are we going to doooooo” followed by “But that’s great, really.” I know he was genuinely happy for me but he’s rather blunt and doesn’t filter well. :)

      2. Sara The Event Planner*

        Yes, I’m sure we’ll have to have additional meetings with some of my coworkers to figure out coverage. At this point, I just want her to know the situation, that I plan on taking leave and coming back after, and that I’m committed to making sure my duties are covered while I’m out.

    4. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Congratulations!
      This is a bigger deal to you than it is to your boss. Normally, when someone tells me they are pregnant, they seem really nervous and also overwhelmed at the thought of being out of work for a few months. This is a big event in your life! However, having an employee out is a normal part of doing business. Bring it up during your regular meeting. If I’m going to have someone out for a while, I’d much prefer it be for a happy reason than a sad/scary one. But not a big deal.

      2. OfficePrincess*

        Agreed. We had a baby boom here not that long ago, and while it made for some tricky scheduling, I totally understood that it’s a fact of life. Any rational manager knows that you’re intent is to have a child, not enact some bizarre plot to doom your workplace.

    5. fri anon*

      I would make sure you already have some of your details ready. I had someone who when they told me they were pregnant, told me they were going to tell me their final day, they were quitting, they wanted to be a stay at home mom. Then they came to tell me they did not know if the husband’s health insurance was going to work so they were probably not quitting. Then they told me they were planning to come back, but told everyone else that they were really not thinking of coming back; it even got back to my boss, who then thought I was somehow protecting the employee. I know pregnancies carry a lot of uncertainties but this was not the most professional way to do it.

    6. Nanc*

      Congrats! I’m in the tell them during the one-on-one meeting. I’ve only ever supervised one pregnant employee (which blows my mind considering how old I am!) and when she told me, she asked to have regular discussions about how to handle her stuff during maternity leave. She made sure her entire job had SOPs, she crossed trained another person in the office using her SOPs so when we hired a temp to cover for her it was practically seamless getting her up to speed. The only real glitch was she was a teeny tiny lady and our temp was nearly 6′ tall. We ended up having to buy another chair and desk so the poor temp didn’t have to schlump for six months!

    7. J*

      At my last job the president was a woman and she had a terrible filter, often casually saying things that were rude or passive-aggressively insulting. One of our male employees’ wife had a baby and he took a couple days of leave to be home afterward. During an all employee meeting, she said “Oh Ben, I was really worried when you said you needed to take paternity leave! But then I was glad you would only be out for a couple days.” Definitely a few jaws hit the floor after she said that.

    8. Thinking out loud*

      Congratulations! When I told my manager I was owner, he said, “That’s terrible news for me professionally, but I’m excited for you personally.” I gave him my due date and told him I hoped to take four to six months off and that I couldn’t promise anything but that my current plan was to come back after that, and that I would tell him as soon as possible if that plan changed.

  42. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

    Is there a blog that is the AAM-equivalent for start-ups/entrepreneurs/etc.? I’m starting to think about starting my own business, but I have no background in it and have no idea where to start, and while there’s plenty of advice to be found through Google, I’m realizing I don’t know enough to know which of the advice is actually good.

  43. Meg Murry*

    Favorite/most used keyboard shortcuts – either for Windows or Mac in general or for specific programs? I know there are lots of lists out there, but 95% of them don’t relate to me, so I thought it would be better to compile a list of ones people actually use. Feel free to point me elsewhere if we’ve already had this discussion recently, because I kind of feel like we might have :-)

    Earlier this week (Wednesday maybe?) someone mentioned Windows+D as a way to show your desktop, which I was happy to learn (and I only recently figured out that the show desktop button in Windows 7 is to the right of the clock – I was so frustrated as to where the old “show desktop” icon next to the start menu went!)

    Windows+L to lock your computer in one step, or Ctrl-Alt-Delete then enter for 2 steps

    Alt+Print Screen to get only the active window, not the whole screen in a screenshot

    Alt+Tab to switch between windows

    Windows+left arrow or right arrow to send a program to half the screen

    Ctrl-F to find, or Ctrl-H to find and replace in Excel or Word (although I almost never remember Ctrl-H, I usually do Ctrl-F and then click over to “find and replace”

    And of course, Ctrl-X, Crtl-C, and Ctrl-V for cut, copy and paste – I use these so often I don’t even think about it.
    Same with Crtl-S for save – its just part of my rhythm to hit it every so often, or whenever I step away from my desk.

    Any other favorites or daily use shortcuts?

    1. katamia*

      This is probably not useful for most people, but I do a lot of formatting of Word documents and just learned about Alt + O + P to open the paragraph formatting menu, which has really saved me some time.

        2. Meg Murry*

          Oh, yes I forgot about using the legacy Alt key shortcuts in Word and Excel

          Alt+I R or Alt+I C to insert new rows or columns in Excel – use that all the time, to the point I don’t think about it until it doesn’t work on a Mac or Open Office and I get annoyed.

          Ctrl+Alt+P for paste special is useful too. Always fun to watch people’s heads spin when I do Ctrl-C and than Cltl+Alt+P, then V then enter for paste special, values.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My favorite shortcuts that I can’t live without and use daily…well, most of the ones mentioned already, most specifically cut/copy/paste, save, find, lock the computer, and screenshots. The ones not yet mentioned:

      Browsers:
      Ctrl-+, Ctrl–(minus), Ctrl-0 to make the page bigger, smaller, or back to the default size.
      Ctrl-R to reload
      Ctrl-T for a new tab

      HTML editing:
      Ctrl-[1-5] for heading 1-5, Ctrl-0 for normal paragraph.

      Less used, but still useful:
      Ctrl-O to open a new file
      Ctrl-P to print (both work in most programs)

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        In most browsers, Ctrl + Shift + T opens the last tab that was closed. In Chrome, at least, you can go back quite a few. (Many, many bacons have been saved by this shortcut.)

        I also like Shift + Tab to travel to previous form fields, in case I have a typo or have missed filling out something.

    4. themmases*

      I love Ctrl + = for subscripts and Ctrl + Shift + = for superscripts in Word. People in my field love to use the same symbol for everything and just change the subscript.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Ooh, good one I forgot about. We use too many subscripts in my field too! Or I should say, we *should* use subscripts, but a lot of people don’t bother in drafts and it looks sloppy (think, writing H2O instead of using a subscript on the 2, but for a different chemical formula)

    5. NavyLT*

      Useful: Ctrl+shift+t to reopen the tab you just closed
      Entertaining: Ctrl+alt+any arrow key to rotate a coworker’s desktop

      1. Meg Murry*

        OMG, I am so using that anytime I come across an unlocked computer now! That would flip my coworkers out!

        April fools joke planned!

      2. littlemoose*

        My cat likes to sit on my laptop and makes this happen. The first time she did that, I had to Google it from my phone to figure out how to fix it.

    6. Charlotte Collins*

      Ctrl + Z to Undo
      Ctrl + A to Select All
      Ctrl + F to Find
      Alt + Tab to toggle
      These are really handy for using multiple programs and doing content editing.

    8. Gillian*

      I end up adding links to documents and webpages to internal newsletters as part of my job and Crtl-K for “add hyperlink” has become my new best friend.

    9. Liza*

      Not literally a keyboard shortcut but equally convenient: on a Mac, in System Preferences -> Desktop & Screen Saver -> Screen Saver -> Hot Corners, set up one corner to start the screen saver. Then any time you need to step away from your computer, just move the mouse all the way into that corner (and leave it there) and the screen saver will start. (This works best when you have “Require password [immediately or 5 seconds] after sleep or screen saver begins” turned on in System Preferences -> Security & Privacy -> General.)

    10. Swoop*

      Word: F7 for spellcheck, shift-f7 for thesaurus

      ctrl-Z to undo
      ctrl-Y to redo (usually. one program I use ctrl-Y deletes the line :/ )
      shift+arrows keys to select multiple lines of text (or shift+page up/page down for even bigger blocks)

      some programs: alt+holding down the left mouse button lets you select a block of text vertically and horizontally (but usually not if word wrap is on)

      show desktop in Windows 8/10: I think you might have to turn something on, but it’s a little wee slice of the taskbar in the bttom right (like where the icon is for 7, but even to the right of that)

  44. Jennifer*

    Well, we’re in our new office now. Plusses and minusses to that one. Lovely space, a lot quieter now that we’re not in all one big giant barn. However, people are still heavily hinting I can’t decorate, so my area is very, very empty (all I have as a personal item is a calendar and THAT’S IT). Sigh. I tried politely asking again if I could have a bulletin board and got politely heavily discouraged.

    I did get annoyed that I got told I had to do moving manual labor for 2 hours because the manager above mine insisted people be working every single minute even if we literally couldn’t because we had no computers and those weren’t coming till 10-11 a.m. Come on.

  45. CrazyCatLady*

    Also – I do have an actual question. My boss is SUPER micromanage-y in spite of me being a top performer, not making mistakes, going WAY above and beyond, being very proactive, keeping him in the loop, bombarding him with details (hoping to improve the micromanaging)… recently, I had an actual conversation with him where I asked if he had any concerns with my work or ability to get things done and that I’d been getting the impression that he did… he asked for examples, so I gave a couple recent ones. He said it’s the complete opposite, that he trusts me implicitly, that I have great ideas that even he would never think of, blahblah. But it still hasn’t stopped!

    Is there anything else I can do or is this something I’ll just need to either deal with or leave?

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        The usual kinds of micromanaging mostly … Constantly checking in on the status of things (even when I’ve already looped him in and involved him), meddling in my work (when he’s told me I am the best person they’ve ever had in this position), suggesting certain phrasing in emails back to suppliers (even when he’s told me how well I negotiate and how well I come across in email). I’m not entry-level or a new employee; I’ve been doing this work for 10 years and do well at it and I’ve been here for 2.5 years.

        1. Sascha*

          That sounds just like my former director. She was a very anxious person who didn’t do well in a high pressure job. She gave me lots of praise and good reviews, and was always telling me how much she appreciated me, but she just could not let things go. I knew it wasn’t personal, but it was hard, since I was in the same situation as you – not my first rodeo. Unfortunately nothing I tried worked, so I don’t really have any suggestions for you. She eventually left for another job.

    2. fposte*

      If you otherwise have a good relationship, maybe you could try suggesting the supervision level you’d like as an experiment. “Bob, I asked recently if you had any concerns about my work, and you assured me you didn’t; since you trust me, would you be willing to try a week where I reported in to you at the end of the day and not mid-project? I think that would be really helpful for my focus.”

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Maybe have one more follow-up, where you reiterate your concern, cite examples, and conclude with it’s impacting your work and want to know if there is anything you can do to alleviate his concern with how you ate managing your work?

    4. The Other Dawn*

      Sounds like maybe he’s someone who is always thinking and really feeds off of details, and getting those details just make him want more because he can’t stop thinking about what you just said. I once had a boss like that. I learned to reduce the details I shared and only gave her the high-level important information and that actually helped to reduce the number of questions I got from her. I would let her ask for the details, rather than volunteering them.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Hm, that’s a good point. I can try this. The reason I give him a lot of details is because he always complains that other people don’t give him enough details and he feels “out of the loop.” haha. Sometimes it does feel like he just has to ask ONE MORE QUESTION when I give him a details.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Yes, my former boss said the same exact thing. But I found that by giving her more info or elaborating on something, it just opened me up to more of an interrogation. And it was just her nature to ask a million questions.

        2. Ad Astra*

          Yeah, The Other Dawn makes a great point. Maybe he’s someone who really wants details, but actually doesn’t need them and probably shouldn’t even have them. The way people with insulin resistance tend to crave simple carbs, which actually make them feel worse. Put him on a low-detail diet and see if his behavior changes.

          1. CrazyCatLady*

            Thanks for the tip The Other Dawn and Ad Astra. I’ll try this. Maybe once he sees things go successfully without knowing all the details, he’ll feel better, too. Do you think I need to respond to all his emailed questions for details if they’re not necessary? I don’t want to ignore details but I also get tired of entertaining his every question, regardless of whether it affects him or he needs to know.

            1. fposte*

              I wouldn’t outright ignore my boss’s request for information. However, I might try an end of day/end of week wrap up that covers the answers and see if that’s enough for him. It might not be, though, if he’s somebody who panics without the details.

              1. The Other Dawn*

                I agree. It annoys me to no end when I email with a question and I don’t get an answer back. Plus, there’s a possibility that the question he’s asking is necessary for something he’s working on, or he might need to report it to someone else. No way to know that from your end, really.

    5. TCO*

      My boss, while talented, is also a micromanager. I get great feedback on my work from her and other managers, and while I’ve made small mistakes they’re par for the course in our department–nothing serious. She doesn’t really have a reason to oversee my work so closely, but it’s just her style. She does it to everyone. She wants lots of updates, while my style is much more autonomous.

      It’s helped me and my boss to start having really candid conversations about this. We’ve found some coping techniques. For instance, I’m not used to giving frequent proactive updates when things are proceeding as planned–I reach out for help when something goes wrong. But if my boss doesn’t get those updates, she sort of panics and tries to regain control, often by getting waaaaay too into the details of some other aspect of the project. To some extent, the more I learn to give those updates, the less she micromanages. We’ve also had some really clear conversations about our expectations for particular projects upfront: what is she comfortable having me do without oversight/permission? At what milestones does she want to review my work? What kinds of situations does she really worry about and want to be pulled in for?

      She’s the boss, so she ultimately gets her way and I have to adapt to her style. It’s still hard and sometimes frustrating; I’m still trying to develop habits (like sending proactive updates) that are just foreign and unnecessary to me. But it’s helped quite a bit to have these really honest conversations about what we need.

      We look at our management preferences as a difference–one style isn’t better or worse than the other, we’re just different people and have different “training” from the bosses we’ve had in our careers. Referencing StrengthsFinder and MBTI has also been helpful for us (our office is big into personality profiles)–it’s given us a common language to explain why our minds work the way we do. Good luck!

  46. The Other Dawn*

    For those of you that went from working at a very small company to a larger one, what has been the hardest thing(s) for you? What do you like about it and what do you hate (or miss)?

    Also, for those of you who went from a large company to a small company, what has been the hardest thing(s) for you? What do you like about it and what do you hate (or miss)?

    I’ll go first:
    I went from a large company (10,000+ employees) to a very tiny company (<15 employees). I loved that I got so much exposure to all parts of the business and moved up quickly, but sometimes it was really tough being "the one and only" and having to wear multiple hats. It was hard to focus on any one thing for very long. Money was also a problem, both in terms of pay and budget. Things got done fast because there wasn't a committee for this and a committee for that; I just got it done on my own.

    Now I've gone from that tiny company to a larger one (400+ employees). I love that I can focus on one department and basically be a specialist. What I don't like is that I don't "know everything" here; I know my one department. Although I know other areas of the bank and how it all works, it's not my job anymore, so it's hard to step back and not be involved in everything on a larger scale. It takes a lot longer to get things done, because instead working alone I'm working with four other departments that are all affected by the one little process I'm trying to change; we have to schedule meetings, invite 10 people, follow up with another meeting, etc. Another difficulty is trying to navigate within the company to get answers or get things done. It could be four different people handling one process, all in different departments. But the pay and benefits are awesome, and I have a decent budget.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I’ll add that working in a tiny company for so long, I really didn’t get the kind of exposure that would have made it easier to transition to a larger company. My job is to look for suspicious activity and when you’re in a one-branch bank, you don’t see much in the way of that. It’s probably going on, but the detection systems are manual, meaning me, myself, and I and some reports. Coming to this larger bank there are so many things I’m seeing now and it’s really opened my eyes to that fact that I wasn’t as worldly and experienced (in this area) as I thought I was, even though I’d been working in this area for many years.

    2. Ad Astra*

      At my new, larger company, it takes forever to get anything done. Everything needs the approval of multiple (very busy) people, and many decisions are made by large project groups. On the other hand, I love being able to take a sick or vacation day without worrying about coverage because there are other people in the department who can handle whatever comes up while I’m gone. The larger company has a far more competent HR department and offers significantly more/better training to new hires. I also have the option to attend an annual conference in my field, which was never an option at smaller companies (and I could never afford to pay my own way). Also, people here use a lot more corporate jargon, but maybe that’s just an industry thing.

      At the smaller company, it was easier to determine which colleague was the right person to go to about a certain issue. It was easier to keep people in the loop because there were fewer interested parties. Things happened at a much faster pace, which is usually a good thing but not always. Some days, taking a sick day really wasn’t an option because there would be no one around to do my job, which absolutely had to get done that day. Scheduling a vacation that didn’t interfere with our busy season or my boss’s anniversary or anyone else’s vacation was also pretty tricky. The parking situation was better, and it was easier to make friends at work. Training was almost nonexistent and HR existed almost exclusively to administer payroll.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Yes, I forgot about having coverage! I love that I can take time off and it doesn’t affect the team (I do the higher level, longer term stuff). If I’m sick I can stay home and not have to come in hacking and sneezing.

        And I’m actually going to my first annual conference on the September 21…to Huntington Beach, CA!! It’s so nice to be able to go and network with other people in my industry.

    3. Not Karen*

      I went from a large company (~50k employees) to a small company (n=130) and I love the culture so much better here. The only thing I can think of that I miss was that the large company had a much more formal training and on-boarding process which better prepared me to start working.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Agreed! With a small company it’s like, “OK let’s drive her out to the desert, set her on fire, and then tell her to go find water to put herself out.” I always said that about my small company. LOL

        1. Clever Name*

          Heh. I compare a new hire’s first week at my small company to being thrown into shark infested waters and saying, “you can swim, right? Well just figure it out and don’t ask too many questions, but don’t spend too much time on it!”

    4. the_scientist*

      I went from a very small, isolated team of 4 in a big organization (seriously, no interaction with the corporate side beyond hiring and orientation) to a much bigger team in a very large organization.

      What I liked about the small group: I knew the program really well, I was the “go-to” person when people had questions, I had ridiculous flexibility (work from home whenever I wanted, more or less, no dress code). What I disliked: no way to move up, no way to get a permanent position (I was contract, with no benefits/sick/vacation), I was wildly undercompensated for the level of work I was doing, I had to do a lot of administrative stuff because there was no one else to do it, and it was exhausting juggling so many things, and there was a real lack of leadership.

      What I like about the large org: transparent compensation framework, transparent employer/employee values, generous benefits, opportunity to move laterally and up in the organization, training and career advancement opportunities (and dollars) available, clearly defined policies and procedures, access to reliable IT support and facilities help, clearly defined roles and responsibilities, regular and transparent performance evaluations. There is a lot more stuff that I don’t know now, but people here are generally very helpful and I really get the sense everyone is committed to success; I don’t sense an undercurrent of tension/competition here.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I think that’s what I miss most is being the go-to person, the one with the institutional knowledge. But on the flip side it’s kind of nice not to have a line of people outside my door wanting to ask all sorts of questions.

    5. cuppa*

      I went from a Fortune 50 company to a company with 7 people in-house.
      The hardest part for me was the coverage — there was just me wearing many hats and I didn’t take a full week off for three years because there was something that needed to be done every week and I was the only one that could do it. Lots of politics there so no one else wanted to cover for me and the owners didn’t enforce it.
      I missed the formal structure and policies of the larger workplace. Everything was very wishy-washy and undefined and I prefered the more formal structure and expectations of the Fortune 50 company.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Yes, that’s a good point about policies. It was nice to walk in and have most of them written and on SharePoint. I didn’t have to search high and for them, or write them myself. I’m kind of 50/50 on the more formal structure, although it’s not overly formal here anyway.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Smalls to large here.

      –Communication, while better than working with people who flat out ignore you and get away with it because of spineless managers or ones who just don’t give a rat’s arse, is still iffy sometimes. Because people. Some are responsive; some not so much. Plus, there are so many people and half the time we don’t know who does what, so sometimes you get five referrals before you find someone who can answer your question! Technologically, it’s awesome–we have IM and WebEx and all kinds of things I never got to use before since only managers got to play with them. :)

      –Better pay.

      –Better benefits. I think larger companies tend to be more competitive because they can afford it. (Exjob did slightly better when they were bought out.)

      –Better workplace. Exjob had free coffee and cocoa; we have coffee, tea (cold and hot), and cocoa. We have dishwashers. We have a contracted cleaning crew that comes in every night (I call them house elves because you never see them). It’s just a nicer building with nicer amenities.

      –A more diverse workplace. This is not a very ethnically diverse area, but we have a lot of people from different backgrounds and who are different ages.

      –This is more job-specific, but telecommuting. I no longer have to worry about work if I have a repair person coming or am not feeling well enough to sit at my desk.

      The only things I miss about Exjob was some of the people, and the fact that if we needed something, it took no time to get it because 1) someone would either run out and buy it, or if it were a table or shelf, they would BUILD it (manufacturing). No going through a convoluted procurement process. And 2) everybody knowing everyone. Sometimes it gets a bit impersonal here because there are so many people on this campus alone. There are folks on my floor I see every day and I barely or don’t even know their names. And I’m always running into someone I didn’t know existed.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Better workplace–yes!! So much nicer in a bigger company. And we have money to keep it nice. Nothing high end, but nothing broken down either.

        And yes, I miss being so close with my co-workers. Not friends-outside-of-work close, but joking-gossiping-commiserating close.

    7. periwinkle*

      The last company I worked for full-time had 13 employees. I miss knowing everyone and miss the camaraderie of being part of this small but awesome team. What I did not like was the pay and benefits being as limited as the company size. It was fine while I was still in grad school, though, and I enjoyed the work/people/easy commute. I ended up doing a lot of “other duties as required” which is great because predictable routine bores me.

      My current company has roughly 160,000 employees. Just my tiny department is bigger than the entire Ex-Job company. The feeling of being a single paper clip in a office supply warehouse can be overwhelming. The bureaucracy and risk-averse processes are frustrating as heck. On the other hand, the pay and benefits are darned good and the opportunities for advancing or even switching careers are vast. And… I end up doing a lot of “other duties as required” which is still great because they’re challenging projects that get me visibility. In a company this big, visibility is necessary!

  47. Tris Prior*

    I’ve been working on my resume as I’ve decided to job hunt. About 6 months ago I was promoted into a more creative, strategic role, which was exactly what I wanted to do. My old role was very reactive and customer service-related, with a workload that was impossible to predict. It entirely depended on how many customers and what they needed. I had so many ideas about how to improve things in the new role, streamline them, make them more efficient… you know, the stuff you’re supposed to put on your resume regarding accomplishments.

    Unfortunately, I’d only been in the new role a couple weeks – barely got my feet wet – when we had a massive layoff and we lost everyone who was going to cover the business-critical customer service tasks. I was told I’d now need to do both jobs, and I’m not allowed to work on the new job tasks until all the customer service tasks have been done.

    Sometimes the CS stuff takes my entire shift, which means I can’t even touch the new job tasks. I never have any idea how much time I can devote to the new tasks. I’m hourly and not allowed overtime – I would LOVE to just stay late and give the new tasks the time they deserve, but I can’t. I am usually really good at time management but having to drop everything to help customers is making that impossible, as I never know how much time it will take.

    I’ve raised this with my supervisor, outlining very clearly that I have not been given enough hours to accomplish everything and how would he like me to prioritize, blahblahblah. He is sympathetic but is taking an “it is what it is” attitude since there’s literally no one who can absorb my old job now. His solution was to do the new tasks as quickly as I can and gave me permission to cut whatever corners I need to in order to get things done in the time I have.

    (All this is why I am job hunting, btw. That and the repeated layoffs, because I can’t deal with the constant fear of the business folding.)

    At any rate, I sat down to add the promotion to my resume and realized that I can only list duties at this point. Everything that I’d dreamed of changing and improving when I got promoted has gone out the window because there simply is no time to even think about it, much less implement it. I am not really sure what to do about this. Do I even list the new role on my resume? I want to, as it’s the direction I want my career to move in and I want OUT of customer service. But if I can’t point to anything I achieved, other than “pumped out an incredible amount of just-OK work while given almost no time to do so and concurrently helping customers”…is it worth it?

    1. Ad Astra*

      I think it’s worth it to reflect that someone thought you were worth promoting. I’d suggest some language about how you’re balancing customer service work with the additional duties. Even if you haven’t had a chance to produce measurable success, you’re showing that you’ve taken on a massive increase in responsibility. That might be all you can do in this situation, because it sounds like the company has put you in an impossible position.

      1. Tris Prior*

        True – maybe I could spin it as “met tight release deadlines while simultaneously blah blah customer satisfaction blah blah blah” Because I’m not blowing deadlines or anything; I just don’t have enough time to make the improvements I’d like to and put my stamp on the way the work is done. If that makes sense. Thanks so much for the input!

  48. InterviewFreeZone*

    Could use some support this week. So, I got an offer. But it wasn’t even within the range originally given to me from HR. I actually currently make a lot more than the range they originally gave me, and then their offer fell far below. The people were really great, and I would have liked to work with them, but the benefits made the extreme salary cut even worse, so I had to decline. I didn’t feel right accepting a job knowing that I’d be looking to leave in less than 2 years because I wanted more money.

    Other job I had in the works has gone MIA on me after saying they’d be in touch soon with next steps.

    Settling in and resigning myself to the fact that I’m stuck plowing through the long-term project I have late October. Depressed that likely means I won’t be able to find a new position until 2016. This is like dating, but worse. I’m being dramatic, but feeling really bummed on this cloudy Friday.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Take comfort in the fact that you made the right decision for you, the right *business* decision, and didn’t let you emotions take over. Had you taken that job, you might have spent the next couple years struggling and being miserable.

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        Thank you! I know I made the right decision, so that’s the one positive that I’m holding onto. It wouldn’t have been right for either party. I’m just struggling with the fact that I’m once again really an “interview free zone”. I have zero leads.

    2. ConstructionHR*

      Bummer.

      In our industry, we get money out of the way early. It saves a lot of time & emotional tolls.

      1. InterviewFreeZone*

        I thought we had! They were upfront with me about the range, and I thought it over before deciding to continue on in the process. When I was waiting on the offer, I was thinking I was ready to accept that range. Unfortunately what they presented was much lower. Tried to negotiate up…didn’t go anywhere.

        1. Fact & Fiction*

          That stinks, and I feel that was really unprofessional of that company. If you had told them you’d be happy with one salary, they offered that, and then you raised the amount you’d accept, they’d be rightfully upset. Sorry you had to go through that.

  49. AVP*

    My company has an office thief! I work for a very tiny company, less than 5 people who have known each other for years, and we’ve never had a problem like this before. Petty cash for the office and for various projects has gone missing, totaling around $900.

    We used to be pretty lax about security (again, nothing like this had ever happened, and we deal with a lot of fancy equipment, laptops, etc etc that are always around). We’ve started putting our cash lockboxes in a locked closet that only a few people have keys to, and I started running the iSentry app on my computer which takes time-lapse pictures overnight if it senses motion. Nothing good yet except the owner’s girlfriend hanging around in off hours, smoking on our fire escape and sitting at peoples’ desks. Hmmm.

    All good security steps that we should have been taking all along…but it’s driving me crazy knowing that someone close to us has less integrity than I thought, and I don’t know who it is yet.

    1. OriginalEmma*

      Do you have laptop locks? Get them. They are fairly inexpensive but indispensable for physical computer security.

  50. Anie*

    Update!

    You remember the guy who, on his first day, responded with “yessa massur” every time I asked him to do something and also mentioned that I have a “big rack”?

    He showed up at work last week wearing shorts. My boss looked him up and down and said, “Shorts are against our dress code. You’ll need to go home and change.”

    He nodded and said, “Oh I know they’re against dress code here–but they’re not at my new job. I start today! So…Bye!” And then he walked out.

    How’s that for two week’s notice?! Honestly, I find it hilarious and I’m just happy he’s gone, but my boss is pissssssed. It threw off our office schedule badly (because we’re all rotating vacations right now), and my boss has been slammed trying to fill all the holes in coverage.

    2. Anony-moose*

      That. Is amazing. What a guy. I can’t even imagine this happening outside of like, John Oliver’s show on HBO.

    11. Stephanie*

      LOLOLOL. If I didn’t care about a reference, I’d be so tempted to quit a job in a random fashion like that.

    12. The Toxic Avenger*

      Well, thank goodness. All’s well that ends well. I’m sorry he threw a wrench at you and crazied up your schedules, but you must be turning cartwheels right now.

    13. OfficePrincess*

      Wow. This actually tops my fired and showed up anyway story I was going to share from this week. It sucks that it created schedule headaches, but yay for him being gone.

        1. OfficePrincess*

          Haha well, long story short, he had attendance issues. Gave 1 week plus a day’s notice during the meeting where he was getting his final warning. Swore he would work out his notice period. Sometime in the 7 hours between the end of that meeting and the end of that shift, he put in a PTO request for two days that were already blacked out (FCFS for PTO). When I denied it, I reiterated that if he called off it should result in termination, but instead we would mark it as being asked to not work out the rest of his notice but still ineligible for rehire. Didn’t show up the two days. Then showed up for the following shift and was immediately walked back out. And then my boss and I stared at each other for a while.

    15. Mimmy*

      LOL!! I feel bad for your boss, but that story is funny.

      And OfficePrincess, I want to hear your story too!!!

          1. OfficePrincess*

            I guess I just have a hard time believing that more than one person would do that. Then again, people never cease to amaze me. (And let’s be real, they’re can’t be much intersection between the set of people who would pull that and the set of people who frequent this site.)

            1. Anie*

              Exactly! That type of people don’t recognize that they’re in error. I can’t remember where, but I was JUST reading about how competent people undersell themselves while wondering why everyone can’t handle the same things, but incompetent people almost never understand that there’s a problem. They see their mistakes as minor and end up feeling blindsided when they’re fired, while their managers don’t understand why they feel the firing is unjust because look at all the warnings!

              Maybe I read that on this site, lol.

              But in any case, remember the intern thread? There was one intern who even had a going away party at the end of their term but still showed up to work at the next day. Literally couldn’t comprehend the idea of employment ending.

              So yes, I completely believe there is a subset of people out there who do this.

    16. Rebecca*

      Let’s keep an eye out on future open threads for someone else referencing the offensive statements this guy makes!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I am going to say this and try not to say anything too telling. Two friends worked in the same industry but for different companies. Of course, they chatted about their work regularly. Friend A’s company hired an employee whose behavior was off the wall. Apparently, he knew how to interview, but did not know much about keeping a job. Time passed and Employee was fired. One day, Friend B said “Someone started working here and the name is familiar.” Of course, Friend A reminded Friend B in great detail who this Employee was. Friend B went passed the word to the higher ups. Employee lasted even less time at the second company.

        Moral of the story, if you work in a big city BUT your arena is small and people know each other, it’s best to just assume that your reputation WILL precede you. I hope this is the case for this guy and he learns something from it.

    18. littlemoose*

      Yeah, that’s crappy in the short run while you figure out vacation coverage, but your jerk coworker is gone and now you have an amazing story!

    21. Steve G*

      What a nitwit he is, granted, at my new office building in Williamsburg, BK, the majority of people in the other offices wear shorts/tanktops/or what look like pajamas. I am very curious what some of these companies do…..but yeah, it is normal some places!

  51. Lou*

    I recently emailed Allison but my situation is now completely changed. In that I am no longer employed by said company. Interview for new job went well and I got it. Handing in my resignation resulted in me fainting and bashing my head on the desk today, it all turned on me and words were twisted and I couldn’t explain myself I lost all feeling, and I still feel quite sick from it.

    GP and Doctors have said that my body was responding to stress and that the rest of my notice period is too regain my mental health skills and coping methods I had, as well as learn to look after my mental well being in prep for my new job. He basically told me to not return to work my notice period as it would be detrimental. The NHS paramedics were lovely. NHS I can never fault it myself. It’s always there for me when I have failed to cope with life by myself.

        1. Lou*

          thank you it means a lot to me :). I am surprised I got it after the way today ended up. I need to look after myself from now on.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You deserve to have an employer that respects you and treats you well. All the power to you for making this change even though it was very hard. You stood up for yourself and that is something you can hang onto for the rest of your life. Many happy, healthy years at your new place!

  52. Gem*

    You know that feeling when you have 12 things to do, and they’re all equally urgent so you stare blankly trying to decide what to do?

    Yeah, that’s been my whole week :(

    1. TheLazyB (UK)*

      Yes. Yes I do. Was told last week to stop working on something that I suspected was soon to become urgent to work on something important but with no urgency behind it. Guess what happened?!

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      Yes, I am not a fan of that feeling. I end up panicking and trying to do everything all at once! I hope it gets better for you soon.

      1. Cassie-O*

        Ditto. But I know the better method is to start by doing *one* of the things. Focus only on that. Once one of them is crossed off the checklist, it starts to get easier and quicker from there on out…

    3. The Other Dawn*

      Me, too. I’m preparing to leave for a conference in CA (I’m in CT) and also trying to finish a project and prepare for the upcoming regulatory exam. Where do I start?!?!?!

    5. Mimmy*

      Had that feeling at a job years ago. I was supporting two high-level people on top of my data entry duties. It often seemed like both directors wanted something done yesterday while i’m trying to stay on top of the data entry. That job was two years of chaos, lol.

    8. fretnone*

      Oh dear yes! I came back from vacation last week and *blank stare* at what had piled up while I was away.
      Eventually I came to my senses and picked the easiest ones first, scheduled them in. Might not have been the most fair or efficient way of deciding, but stuff got done and it got easier from there, and I realized perhaps that was the only way to stay sane and build momentum.

      You’ll find your way!

    9. Clever Name*

      Yep. And then when you ask for help in prioritizing you’re told to talk to the various PMs who all just tell you their project is the most important.

    10. catsAreCool*

      Anything management is interested in is high on my list.

      After that, I tend to pick items where I need more info from people before I can make much progress and send e-mails asking for the info. Then I might pick something where I think I’ll need more info once I make more progress. People don’t always get back as soon as you expect them to, so I like to start with requests.

      After that, I might take something that is easy to get finished or something interesting that will take some real work, etc.

  53. some1*

    Is there a nice way to say to a coworker/counterpart with a different supervisor, “You need to become more proficient in using Outlook?” My coworker and I are admins and she just doesn’t understand or know how to do basic stuff, and it creates more work for me.

    I do know of resources to point her to learn more, just wondering if there’s a way to approach it.

    1. Ihmmy*

      What about something along the lines of “Did you know you can do X Y and Z in outlook? I read a couple good articles the other month with some tips and tricks. Let me know if you want them sent your way”?

    2. fposte*

      By recasting it as being about what *you* can do, not what she should do. “I’m afraid I have to dial back on the Outlook assistance, since I’ve realized it’s been taking time I can’t afford–here’s a resource I’d highly recommend using now that I won’t be able to help.”

    3. some1*

      These are really good responses, but one scenario that won’t help is that we are part of distribution list of the admins in our region, and management will send an email like, “For those of you who have X event coming up to plan, please email me back with Details A, B, and C” and *I* have X event to plan, but she doesn’t (she supports a different group), she will respond anyway because she doesn’t understand that the email went to a distribution list and not to just her personally.

      1. Natalie*

        Does that actually affect you though? It sounds like she’s just making herself look a little dumb/out of touch but not actually causing you extra work or anything.

        1. some1*

          In that case, yes, it affected me because I had to go back to the people above me in my org chart and explain why she’s giving info out that’s supposed to come from me.

          And with the other things, yes, I have to drop what I am doing so a client’s question can get answered

              1. Natalie*

                That’s certainly obnoxious, although if they’re making the assumption (rather that her saying “the NYC Office doesn’t have anything” or similar) it’s more on them then her. You may be able to clarify with some people that Jane only speaks for the Chocolate Teapot department and they should wait to hear from you on the Caramel Cup department.

                Either way, I wonder if you’re making extra steps for yourself. I’m not sure that you need to explain her at all – a quick reply to the effect of “Actually I am planning an X event. I’ll be sending the details shortly” should resolve any confusion. You can reply-all if the distro list needs to know for some reason, or just reply to the sender as they originally requested.

                Is there any chance this is the same co-worker you were asking about a few weeks ago, who seems rude in email? Could you be in BEC mode with her?

                1. some1*

                  She is not, no. :) That coworker has pulled way back on the snark, and this coworker is extremely kind – which is what makes it a weird suggestion/conversation

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  @ Some 1, can you ask her to check with you before sending out a mass email on projects under your watch?
                  If she is basically a nice person that makes it much easier to handle stuff like this.
                  It doesn’t really sound like she has a problem with Outlook exactly. (I could be reading this wrong.) I am wondering is if the actual problem is understanding the various information flows in the company. For example, Sue needs to know about A and B. Bob needs to know about B and C but Sally needs to know ABCD annnd EFG.

  54. Not Karen*

    Curious about opinions/standards of how soon after starting it’s okay to take PTO/vacation in your job/industry, as Google is providing conflicting results. One Forbes article suggested waiting a whole year before taking a vacation, which seems excessive when at my job we accrue 7 weeks of PTO per year (for which I’m very grateful).

    I’d like to hear different answers, if they are different, for each of the following scenarios:
    a) a few hours off, e.g. for an appointment
    b) a day off
    c) a week or more off (aka an actual vacation)

    1. The Other Dawn*

      a) Appointments and such, I think it’s fine right away as long as it isn’t excessive. Depends though. Is it an appointment to have your hair done, or is it a doctor’s appointment? That’s two different things. But I wouldn’t ask an employee to tell me that anyway.

      b) A day off? Probably a couple months, but would depend on the workload.

      c) Vacation? I think three months is fine, since that’s when new employees are allowed to start using their PTO. I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    2. AnonPi*

      I think this could vary a lot from place to place, so you kind of have to play it by ear. Especially depending if your job is such that if you’re not there it affects other people’s work, if the job doesn’t really affect other people’s work/function of the office then it would be easier to take off at least for appointments or a day. Of course this is colored by my perceptions, as I don’t think I’ve worked somewhere that’s very stringent about taking off, especially for appointments. So my estimate would be:
      a) appointments – few weeks to a month (although if its for something like a specialist where it’s hard to get into, and you already have it scheduled, I’d talk to your boss and see if you can keep it)
      b) day or two off – 2-3 months
      3) vacation – 6 months (though for something like around the christmas holidays, and you’ve just started a few months before, depending on the office environment it may be perfectly acceptable/expected to ask for a few days).

    3. jhhj*

      A few hours off, not in the first 2-3 weeks. A day off, not during the first month or maybe 2. A week or more off, you can ask after month 2, but for vacations 1.5 months or more out (so, starting around month 3-4).

      Anything you request as part of the hiring negotiation is different of course.

    4. Ad Astra*

      a) A few hours off: Fine after a month or so, if it’s a somewhat rare occurance

      b) A day off: As soon as you’ve accrued enough time to do so, as long as the timing isn’t a business problem

      c) A week or more off: Really, I think it’s fine to do that as soon as you have the PTO. But if you want me to put a timeline on it, I’d say 6 months.

    5. Rita*

      I think if it’s things that are already planned and difficult to change they should be okay to take off, as long as they are communicated during the offer process. If you were planning on taking a long weekend to sit on the beach, maybe reconsider. If it’s your parents’ 50th wedding anniversary and you need to take off a Friday to travel there, then that seems okay to me.

      It also depends what the onboarding process is like. If it’s a multi-week process with multiple people and missing time will set you back, that makes it tricky. If it’s just you starting and there’s a day or two of orientation with a fluid training schedule, then it’s fine.

      For new requests, I’d say 3 months is good for days off or vacations. For appointments, that should be allowed at anytime. Some appointments are difficult to get.

    6. NicoleK*

      New coworker started taking a day off here and there beginning her second to third week on the job. And started working from home a month after she started. And no, it’s not the norm here at the organization. She’s someone who has operated outside professional norms from the first day. Oh, and she complains about the workload to some colleagues.

    7. Honeybee*

      a) My manager has already told me it’s fine to take a couple hours off to take care of some business, including a day off when I move into my new apartment. I’m at the end of week 3 and she told me this last week. But I also moved cross-country for this job in a company where moving cross-country (or internationally) is very common, so I’m sure that influenced it – there are a lot of little issues that need to be taken care of after the move.

      b) See above, but I wouldn’t take a day off for non-personal business reasons until about 6-8 weeks in. There are two people who started about a month before me, and they’ve both taken off a day or two here or there to do personal things. I don’t think anyone really cares as long as the work gets done.

      c) Probably about 3 months. I don’t think that’s a standard, but that’s when I’d feel comfortable taking a week off.

      I’ve also wondered the same thing about working from home and coming in late because of X – it’s very common around here for people to do either or both because they’re getting their roof done, repainting their house, getting blinds installed, feel sick, have potential renters coming through, etc. (lots of people are doing things to their houses right now lol). I have no desire to do either right now, but I do wonder.

    8. skyline*

      My org has a 6 month probationary period, which means paid leave is accrued but not usable for the first 6 months.
      a) 1-2 months
      b) 2-3 months (unless negotiated at hire)
      c) 6 months (unless something different negotiated at hire)

      For us, the rules are somewhat different if you make a move internally, as it’s generally accepted that you might already have vacation plans. In my latest job, I took one week off during month 2, and another week off during month 4, since the time off was already planned and approved when I was promoted.

    9. AnotherFed*

      a) a few hours as soon as you have the PTO (or if salaried, whenever). It shouldn’t be a regular thing, but especially if you just moved for a job, there’s tons of things to take care of that have limited hours or must be at specific times – meeting movers or a workman, DMV stuff, appts as part of buying a house, etc.

      b) after 2 or so months. Exceptions would be pre-negotiated things or unavoidable things like movers are coming (and the boss has cleared it).

      c) Once the PTO has accrued or 3 months (whichever is later), unless it’s a big holiday time like the end of December, when most US offices get pretty empty.

  55. AnonPi*

    I am on pins and needles waiting to hear back if I got a job I interviewed for last week. It’s a program coordinator job at a university and exactly the kind of thing I’ve been looking for, not just any job so long as I can get away from toxic work place/bad supervisor. They finished interviews yesterday, so anytime now I could get a phone call (unlike all the other jobs I’ve applied for they’ve moved super quick on every step, usually 1-2 day turnaround). I know it’s not likely they’d call today, but just knowing they’re at the final step to decide is, like, aaaggghhh!! lol

    The bad thing is I’ve really got my hopes up for getting this job, especially after the director said I was his top pick and the job was mine unless the committee came back with a strong argument for someone else – I almost wish he hadn’t said that because it only got my hopes up more. I know I need to try keep a level head about this because right now, I’d be devastated if it falls through. Desperation is part of it, because if this doesn’t come through then I’m facing potentially being laid off next month or quitting. I don’t know, I’m gonna drive myself crazy until I find out at this rate…

    1. over educated and underemployed*

      Good luck! Signs point to yes but the waiting game is awful. I hope you get it!

      On the selfish front, can I ask what kind of background you have and what experiences you stress for project coordinator jobs? I have gotten rejected for several at a local university but keep on trying!

      1. AnonPi*

        Full time university jobs in general are hard to get. In fact a lot of people I know only got in because they were already student workers there or had part time jobs. When I worked at my undergraduate university, I know there was a lot of internal transferring for jobs from department to department, like musical chairs, lol, so that makes it hard for an outside person to get in. If you can afford to take a part time job to get your foot in the door, that may be the way to go. Otherwise I’d say network like crazy, because another thing they often check/ask is if you know anyone in the department the position is in, and that can help a lot.

        As far as a project coordinator role, be sure to emphasize that on your resume. That’s part of my current job but certainly not the majority of it, and that’s what I emphasized heavily on my resume since that’s the parts relevant to the job I was applying for. And if you haven’t already, maybe look into getting a certification in project management, even if its just the CAPM (for entry level) as showing you’ve took some training may help too. Or if you don’t have much experience in project coordination, maybe see if you can find some volunteer work that does that sort of thing to gain more experience. Good luck!

  56. Jcsgo*

    Two of my coworkers have developed the habit of pulling open the copier’s paper trays before printing documents they need on a specific type of paper. They leave them open for a few minutes while printing, as to “force” the copier to use the remaining available tray. Is there a polite way I can show them how to designate which tray to print from using their computer rather than doing this? I don’t want to seem pompous – it’s a bit of a pet peeve for me but I also think it would be helpful – – they often run back and forth from their computer to repeatedly open and shut the drawers. If there is a polite way, how would I start the conversation? (I work in a small office and we all know each other well.)

    1. T3k*

      Maybe something like “Hey, I couldn’t help but notice that you have to run back and forth a lot between the copier and your computer to shut the drawers. If you want, I can show you an easier way so you don’t have to do so much running.” And if they decline, drop it and chalk it up to being one of those small annoyances in the workplace.

    2. HigherEd Admin*

      FWIW, I have to do this with my printer because it will outright ignore my printer tray settings. But I like T3k’s wording suggestion above.

      1. OfficePrincess*

        We use this method too since we need to go over and physically put the specialty paper in a drawer. And then yell to everyone else in the room to not print for a minute or it will be purple/green/transparent/whatever.

        1. CMT*

          I worked in an office in college where “Printing on cardstock!” was a common refrain. I wonder if that office has ever figured out a better system.

      2. Isben Takes Tea*

        I’ll pipe in that I agree it’s annoying, but along with HigherEd Admin, I know how to do this but my computer refuses to work with the printer properly, and it’s just been low enough enough of a priority that I haven’t gone to IT about it yet.

        You could mention it in a “I found it helpful” way of you meet someone doing this at the printer, but they may not take you up on it.

        Unless it’s affecting your work (I’ve had people leave extra sheets in the tray once they were done…urgh!) I’d drop it after that.

  57. over educated and underemployed*

    You know that research that’s been in the news about how men apply for jobs they’re 60% qualified for, women hold out for ones they’re 100% qualified for, and men tend to play their experience up, while women are more humble? I hear that, as a woman, and I’m like “well, might as well try if MEN are doing that!” So it seems I’ve talked myself into an interview for a job that I’m 60% qualified for (hopefully more, but I’ll have to learn more about the actual duties in the interview, since it covers a lot of areas).

    So…how do the 60% qualified handle interviews and get jobs? Particularly in terms of addressing the areas where you don’t have much experience, but want to develop it? Specifically, I have a PhD in qualitative research, and this job involves qualitative and quantitative research with a different population/topic than my previous work. I’d be very, very excited to do more quantitative work and make a switch in terms of topics, since I think there’s more of a future outside of academia for me that way, and I am experienced at finding and using resources for learning new methods independently, but quite honestly the job would involve methods I have not yet used and I can’t fake that. On the bright side, the pay is low for this kind of work in this area, so maybe there’s not as much competition? (Ha.)

    1. katamia*

      I’ve gotten jobs I don’t have all the qualifications for, and one of the things I try to do when I apply to those jobs is…I don’t want to say I ignore the qualifications I don’t have, but I never directly say in a cover letter that I don’t have X or Y qualification. I don’t want to bring it to people’s attention because “I don’t have X” isn’t a great way to sell myself. Instead, I focus on the strengths I do have and also on my ability to learn new things, be a self-starter, etc.

      I also make sure that the qualifications I’m missing aren’t really crucial ones–I’m not going to apply for a job teaching Korean because I can’t speak Korean, but I’ll apply if my degree is in the “wrong” field, and I’ve gotten at least one job before that’s theoretically required a master’s even though I only have a BA. I suspect there are some jobs/fields where that might really be an issue, but it’s not crucial for anything I’ve done.

      I don’t know much about research, but is this the kind of thing you could study on your own or get some kind of certification for? If so, that might help a lot, too.

      1. over educated and underemployed*

        I can study it on my own, but I can only get so far before my interview Monday :) More broadly, I have studied some of the methods, so I’ll be trying to brush up a little online this weekend, but I haven’t applied them on the job, and can’t actually do that in my current position. I assume they’ll quiz me on how much I know, and I’ll try to be honest but also talk up my ability to learn…I just hope they’re not like “welp, here’s a test!”

        2. LibbyG*

          Maybe your interviewers won’t really know these methods either? As you brush up, I’d focus on what kind of data and questions each model is for. Then if you can say things like, “That sounds like a logistic regression model” even if you can’t quite, at this moment, construct and interpret one. Toward that end, you might find it more helpful to skim papers in the area of the project rather that methods texts per se. I find that much more memorable.
          Best of luck! Let us know how it goes!

    2. Charby*

      I think AAM has covered this before, and I think a lot of it is the fact that many job descriptions contain both actual requirements and aspirational requirements — things that the person who wrote it would *like* to have but don’t actually *need*. If you see a job description where you think you can do the vast majority of the work but there are a few technical skills that you can probably pick up on pretty fast you can apply. Especially for those “laundry list” job descriptions, odds are no one person actually does meet all the requirements.

      As far as how to do it in interviews — it depends on the specifics. For example, if it’s a software developer or coding job — if you know .NET and C# and have HTML experience but the job wants all that and Javascript and specific experience working with CSS you can apply. Those languages are fairly similar to each other and someone who has learned some can probably figure out the related ones without too much trouble. You can read up on trade publications to get a feel for how those are used in that type of industry and explain why your experience with those other languages translates well to this one.

    3. Jcsgo*

      In cover letter and interview, expound upon times in the past where you haven’t had a skill but you’ve developed it – and the steps you took. Or you’ve problem-solved on your own – that’ll give interviewers a sense of why you’re a solid candidate. And to be honest, it’ll help convince you too if you feel like this is a job you can do well – which is helpful when you’re conscientious and possibly feeling inadequate in a new job! You can remember you were honest with them about your qualifications and not feel like you need to hide behind some persona of “I *totally* get how to do this (looks to the side with panic-stricken face)”. They know where your skills are coming in.

      Also, express the ambition and desires you wrote about here – I’m sure most employers want driven, dedicated employees who see purpose in their work, even if they don’t have *all* the qualifications (and maybe they’re not expecting to find all the qualifications either – sometimes the list is just a wish list for their ideal candidate. It helps possible applicants understand the position better.)

      I say this as someone who took a bookkeeping job earlier this year with zero experience. I have a BA in a humanities field and haven’t taken a stats or accounting course in my life. Zero QuickBooks experience and almost zero Excel experience (I learned about AutoSum during my first few days…). But my employer trusts me as a person, and saw potential & hard work in my previous position elsewhere. I was also realistic with myself about the learning curve. My honesty up front about my skills has made it easier to ask questions – and probably reassured them, since I’m not just lone-ranger guessing what to do off by myself.

      All that to say – portray yourself accurately and well, then see what options appear!

      1. over educated and underemployed*

        Good for you! I hope to be given a chance like that to grow into a job myself. Sometimes it feels like it’s hard to even get considered unless you’ve done the same job before. Thanks for the advice!

    4. ST*

      I recently applied for a job I didn’t have all the qualifications for and it backfired! I KNOW it was a fluke, but it bummed me out big-time.

      I got an interview for this job I knew I’d be great at but was a bit of a reach and also had a few areas I didn’t have experience in (but I am very interested to learn more about, as I said in my interview). I was hoping I could emphasize my experience that perfectly fit 75-80% of the job description, but instead the interviewer cherry-picked the few items in the job description I had no experience in (other than the basics that would allow me to excel — communication skills, etc.), grilled me on them, and didn’t ask any questions about my experience in the other areas. I answered as best I could by steering the conversation to my strengths and how I’d be great even in the stuff I’ve never done before, but she obviously only heard “I’ve never done that so I’m a terrible fit for this job.” It became clear pretty fast that they were looking for the magical unicorn who had done every single thing on their (very long) list of requirements — the fact that they originally posted the job in March, took it down, then re-posted it in June confirmed that for me (along with the fact that she ended the 30-minute interview after 15 minutes!).

      Anyway, it was a really terrible interview. I know it wasn’t my fault, because I was prepared to address her concerns but she had no interest in hearing them, but it still made me feel like “why did I take this chance???” But I reminded myself that not every interview for a “reach job” will be like this.

      1. over educated and underemployed*

        This is what I’m terrified about! I’ve definitely had interviews for jobs I thought I was VERY well qualified for where interviewers have asked, “So when have you done X specific duty?” and I’ve said, “I have done Y, which is not quite X but is super close because it requires the following identical skills and background,” or “I’ve volunteered to do the background work on X beyond my current job description, though in my organization only a higher level employee is officially authorized to complete X,” and had the response be, “So…you have no experience with X.” Sigh.

        1. Jennifer*

          “stretch” jobs or anything like that are so out these days, unfortunately.

          A friend of mine has argued that I should be trying this sort of thing, but man, it is NOT working these days.

    5. Jcsgo*

      Oh also, really think about your skills and see which are transferable to the new position (with or without certain experience). The more you can communicate well about your strengths in a convincing way, the better candidate you will be. That means understanding the position very well – which you can do by preparing good questions in advance, and then thinking through hypothetical answers and how various answers would make you a stronger candidate or weaker candidate. If their answer has you appear as a weaker candidate (or if you’re now less interested in the position or think it wouldn’t be a good fit), it helps you think of solid follow-up questions, indicating your level of thoughtfulness toward your candidacy and likely also your work. And if you come to the realization it isn’t a good fit, it’s a bit easier to accept rather than to just not get why they didn’t hire you.

      1. over educated and underemployed*

        Thanks. I did a lot of thinking on this front before the phone screen, and then felt like I totally bombed it and came off like an idiot, so I was shocked that they invited me in for an interview at all…clearly, I need to not only THINK, but actually write out stories and answers and questions to practice and hopefully remember during the interview itself.

        I feel like a lot of jobs are not quite a perfect fit because I’m trying to make a career transition, so it’s easy to reject someone with transferable and related skills (me) in favor of someone with a more straightforward work history. I just assume this is why I’ve been rejected for all the jobs I’ve interviewed for this summer, and I hope eventually somebody is willing to take a chance on me.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, esra, that’s great news! Are you leaving soon enough that you can gloat at how badly the director took it, or is it going to be bad for a while?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Remember, if the director makes it really miserable, you can always walk out (after a request or two for them to treat you in a civil and professional manner).

        But most of all, focus on how you now have a defined end date for this job. I find that I have a much better attitude about things that are unavoidably unpleasant or painful if I just focus on the time when they’ll be over.

        1. fposte*

          Though I believe esra is Canadian, so she may have some weird maple-syrup-infused rules about resignation notice that we USAns don’t.

      2. esra*

        Usually with a mat leave contract, they build in more notice so it works better for both sides. I requested at least four weeks be built in, but they insisted on two so that’s what they’re getting.

        We had a very awkward talk where she asked how I could do this to her? How could I blindside her like this? Am I okay? Where is this coming from? Why, this doesn’t seem like me at all! PS Can’t I give two months instead of two weeks?!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I love the “this doesn’t seem like you at all.” What a weird thing to say to someone about resigning.

          I once had a boss who, upon hearing of my resignation, locked me in her office for an hour while she alternately both berated me for my selfishness in leaving and promised to give me the moon if I stayed. It was like good cop/bad cop but all coming from the same person.

          2. esra*

            I think she thought I may have quit emotionally (my resignation email was very standard, but she tends to act emotionally so…).

            Bad bosses, on top of everything else they do poorly, really don’t handle resignations well.

              1. Dynamic Beige*

                That was me on a train a last week, reading a book. Everyone does it, but then they’re surprised to hear someone else doing it. Sometimes, the funny… it cannot be contained!

  59. T3k*

    This is a question for those who accept jobs in unfamiliar cities/states: how do you go about doing so? I really want to stay in the current area I’m in, but of course if I’m offered a nice job in another city, it’s off I go. How do you guys go about finding new doctors, apartment, etc. in the new city/state?

    1. katamia*

      Oh, I just did this! Moved to a new country, actually. I had a couple friends and family friends who were familiar with the city and asked for their advice on apartments and where to live. Still figuring things out, but Yelp, Google reviews, etc. are also good to at least get company names and such.

      I’m not sure what your family situation is like, but having a roommate for a little while can also be really helpful, both because I’ve always found it easier to find “Roommate wanted” ads than “I have this apartment for someone to lease” ads and because in my experience, people are pretty willing to share their knowledge about a place when someone new comes along. If you’d be moving by yourself, having a roommate for a few months to start out (especially if you’re not super familiar with the city and don’t want to lock yourself into a lease in an area you turn out not to like) might be a good way to go.

      Reddit has a lot of location-based subreddits. I’ve asked a couple of questions on the one for the place I moved and gotten good answers.

      1. Ad Astra*

        I second the roommate idea, if you’re single. It can ease some of the costs of relocation (not sure if that’s an issue for you) and your roommate is likely to be a helpful resource even if they don’t turn out to be your best friend.

        I did this in a college town known for its particularly friendly and kind student body, and it worked out great for me. The house was awesome, my roommates were nice, and even my landlord was excellent. It’s a little more of a risk in other places, but I would think you’d have lots of good choices in “transplant” cities like New York, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, etc.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I did this a couple years ago. I moved 2000 miles away and we stayed in a extended-stay type of hotel for a few weeks while we looked for a house. I think we lucked out because we didn’t do a ton of research on where to live; we just picked an area that was about half way between both of our jobs and convenient to possible future jobs.

      As for doctors, once I got insurance, I went to their website and looked at doctors near me (again, between my job and home) and read their bios and picked one. I ask for recommendations, use Yelp, etc. My biggest struggle has been finding a new hairdresser and dentist!

      It took about 6 months before I started feeling really comfortable with all the changes (even going to new grocery stores, drug stores, etc. was weird), but after that it was pretty smooth-sailing. Let me know if you have any other specific questions!

    3. Ad Astra*

      I’ve done this a few times.

      – For apartments, I’ve had good luck with Craigslist. That will vary by market, of course.
      – Finding doctors can be tricky. I spent a lot of time Googling the specialties I needed and reading online reviews and the practice’s website. Remember that if your new doctor ends up being a bad match, you can ask your new friends for recommendations once you have them.
      – Google Maps was so, so crucial for getting around and I have no idea how anyone moved anywhere before this technology. (I guess they had to read actual maps, which is not my specialty.)
      – Usually there’s a particularly helpful employee at your new job (perhaps the hiring manager) who can guide you to good restaurants, bad parts of town, etc.
      – Look for an alumni group affiliated with the college you went to. Those people are usually very receptive to people reaching out.

    4. The IT Manager*

      The internet.

      I second renting before you buy (or short-term renting before signing a year lease) to get to know the area and pick a place that makes the most sense for you. When I knew I was not in my “forever home” because I’d be moving within the next few years I always prioritized a short commute in my selection process. I had very good luck with Craig’sList for finding a rental on my most recent move. A couple of moves ago, I ended up staying in an extended stay motel until my house was ready for me to move in. If you can afford it, it gives you time to figure out what neighborhood you actually want to live in. This allows you to find out from your co-workers where they live and what they recommend before you commit to a lease.

      As for the other stuff, honestly, I have no idea how people did it before the internet and car/phone GPS; although, I do remember printing up maquest directions in the “old days.” Your insurance will probably have a list of health care providers in your network and then I look at reviews, location, and office hours to figure out which is most convenient for me. I picked an eye doctor near my house because often I won’t go back to work if my eyes have been dilated. I picked a dentist near my office (with early and late hours) so I could make a quick visit to the dentist and not have to take much time off. You probably want a doctor near your house so if you’re really sick you don’t have to travel far.

      All that is a pain, but people can do it and you can do it too.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Best dentist recommendation I ever got was from just emailing the co-workers at my new job and saying “Hey, anyone got good dentist recommendations?”

    6. Liza*

      Check Yelp for reviews–some cities have more activity on Yelp than others, but it’s been useful to me in my new city. Around here even dentists get reviewed on Yelp. (Though that’s not how I found my dentist in the first place. I went to a play put on by a small local theatre group and this dentist had bought ad space in the program book. I decided I’d like to support a dentist who supported local arts, and it turned out she’s also a great dentist.)

      I second/third/whatever using Craigslist to find an apartment, and possibly also housemates. (I found my apartment via Craigslist and then found housemates to live in it with me, also via Craigslist.)

      You might also want to find information on what various neighborhoods are like, which neighborhoods tend to be high crime, etc. I’m not sure where to suggest finding that information, though. When I moved here I had friends in the area already, and they gave me the scoop on that.

      1. Honeybee*

        City-data.com is a good place. They have crime statistics, median home prices and rents, demographic characteristics, latest news, average commute times, etc. But even more useful are the forums – there are lots of archived discussions about virtually every place on that website.

    7. Honeybee*

      I just moved 2600+ miles across the country! (I have moved states 3 times in the last 7 years, all for education/work!)

      The answer to all of that is “Internet.” When it looked like I was advancing forward in the interviews and there was a decent chance I might get the job, I started researching the area to see if it was a place I’d want to live. I looked up the subreddit for the city and surrounding suburbs; I Google searched things like “[City] traffic” and “best places to live in [city]”, I read through threads on house-hunting, etc. SO I narrowed down some towns that it sounded like I might want to live in, and then I searched online to find apartments in the areas and looked at floorplans and pictures. From there I made a list and made some appointments for some tours – such that I was able to sign a lease within my first two weeks in New City. (And good thing, because the rental market moves quickly here). The place I went with was the second place I saw.

      One good thing to do is maybe do a short-term rental so you can get an idea of the area and the towns a bit – like a sublet or a temporary roommate. My job provided temporary housing for me, so I got a chance to ask my coworkers where they lived and got a sense for what their commutes were like. This also prevented me from having to rent an apartment sight unseen. Extended stay hotels are good, but also see if there are any corporate housing solutions, too. They’re usually furnished apartments.

      New doctors – you can use ZocDoc for reviews, or you can use your insurance company’s listing on their website – most insurers have a list of in-network providers and you can search by ZIP code. With other services like hair salons, dog groomers, that kind of thing, I use Yelp and Google reviews.

    8. periwinkle*

      I’ll second the rec for city-data.com’s forums. When I moved metro areas (from DC to Seattle) I did a fair amount of reading through the forum threads to get a sense of neighborhoods and commuting situations. I had Google Maps open for many, many hours as I zoomed in on different areas and used Google Street View to check out shopping and residential areas. Redfin was helpful for getting a handle on residential areas, too. I used Yelp at first to look for businesses but eventually switched to the usual ask-a-coworker method. Oh yeah, Angie’s List was useful for narrowing down options for health care including veterinarians!

      Arranging a rental from a distance is nerve-wracking – I wound up at a brand-new apartment complex which had been advertising on Craigslist (a lot of professionally managed complexes turn up on our local CL). We rented for the first year and thus had plenty of time to get to know the area before deciding where to buy.

      If you’re a foodie, check out the Chowhound forums on chow.com to get info on local restaurants, supermarkets, farmers markets, etc. Realtor websites often include neighborhood information and links to local community pages. The internet really does help prep for those long-distance moves to a strange new city!

  60. Days Off*

    (US workers) how much time is normal to take off your first year in a job? (Not your first job, but when you start a new job). Do you think 5 days in eight months is excessive?

    1. Graciosa*

      Generally, no. If the five days always popped up at the last minute and consistently prevented handling some key responsibility (major conference, presentation, etc.) or there were other red flags (suddenly “sick” after vacation was denied, never coming back the first day after a holiday) I would be worried, but the amount alone is not an issue.

      Normally, the company is clear about its expectations. For example, everyone gets at least 2 weeks of vacation (not sick time) off each year, but new employees are told none of it can be taken in the first 90 days of employment. I would recommend a frank discussion with the manager and/or HR if there are questions about a specific workplace.

    2. Sascha*

      Not if they are spaced out. If you took all five days off in the first couple of months that would be weird to me.

    3. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I don’t think that is excessive at all. I would take the full amount of vacation you are allocated aside from any time you want/can roll over. While I think it’s important to not start a job and immediately go on vacation, you are still entitled to your vacation time. I think a new employee just needs to be flexible and not schedule a week’s vacation your first month in (unless of course this was negotiated during the offer process due to plans that had already been made).

    4. Ad Astra*

      Not excessive at all. I would expect most people to take off all of their allotted days within the first year. For a lot of people that would be 10 or more days.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I think whatever your manager is cool with. Just communicate about it (assuming your manager is approachable and reasonable).

      My first non-teaching job had only a certain (small) number of vacation days you accrued per year, so, apart from major events we had to attend mandatorily, we could take vacation days any time we wanted.

      I had another office job that allowed us three weeks a year, and that time could also be taken any time that didn’t conflict with major events for our office.

      And at yet another job, we were not allowed to take time between January and June, but any other time was okay.

      My current supervisor says he’ll approve pretty much any time.

      I would just talk to your supervisor about what’s prudent.

  61. themmases*

    Your CEO makes you all watch a TED Talk about positivity and then engage in a “happiness challenge” with another company run by his friend.

    How fast would you be job searching? I keep telling my partner there is no wrong time to update your LinkedIn and see what comes your way… But there are some times that are very, very right.

    1. Sascha*

      Ehhhhh, it’d probably come down to how much I like my benefits. That’s pretty much the only reason I’m still at my current job. (Oh that sweet, sweet telecommuting.)

    2. fposte*

      What does a happiness challenge entail? Is that a reason to request your CEO bring in puppies and eclairs? I could see making this work for me.

      1. themmases*

        Lol, I wish! It seems to involve global emails exhorting people to engage in weird self-help/positive thinking activities, and time given over to this at all their meetings. Unfortunately it’s because this person is really into making the company a good place to work, but apparently by just constantly telling people to be happier rather than changing stuff at the company.

        I think I’m most offended by the fact that this is for a personal bet between the CEO and a friend, like they own their employees or something.

        1. I'm a Little Teapot*

          Wow. I hate that crap and actually consider it really destructive and hurtful (read Barbara Ehrenreich’s Bright-Sided and Helaine Olen’s Pound Foolish for why) and I’m not sure I’d be able to refrain from telling everyone that at work.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          So this is all for a bet and not to, like, improve the company or anything? Ugh. Thumbs down, it’s a company not a chessboard, those are employees not pawns, this is real life not some game you keep on the closet shelf. ugh, ugh, ugh.

    3. Rose of Cimarron*

      Ugh. I’m so tired of the happiness police. Even my cough drops have freaking happiness platitudes on the wrapper. Read “The Happiness Industry” by William Davies for very interesting thoughts on how corporations are exploiting the happiness movement to put the entire burden on the employee for workplace satisfaction and morale.

    4. Stephanie*

      Within a business day, unless I just really liked my job otherwise and didn’t have to take this super seriously.

  62. K.*

    I’ve been laid off for a few months but things are starting to pick up now that summer is over. I did a pretty successful short-term gig and a friend of mine, who is a senior person in our field (she’s older than I am), put me in touch with another senior person in the field. I had a call with the contact recently and am going in next week to meet him and a bunch of team members. There are some openings there (which my friend didn’t know about when she referred me), and they’re a bit of a stretch from what I was doing before. The contact seemed totally unfazed by this and likes my experience; I am terrified. It’s Impostor Syndrome at work – I know this, I’ve battled it before. So do y’all have any thoughts about how to keep Impostor Syndrome at bay?

    The other thing that makes me a bit nervous is that this is a client-facing company, and I’ve always worked on the client side – do any agency folks have any suggestions about that transition? Thanks!

    1. Buttonhole*

      I won’t be fazed about being on the client side before- you can use this to your advantage. Make a list of how you like and disliked being treated etc as a client, and keep that in mind when you deal with clients. As for Impostor Syndrome- I suffered too but let it get to me and I didn’t perform as well. I think you should be humble and proud of who you are and achieved, take to heart compliments like this one about you being able to do the job well, remove the words “I was just lucky” and replace them with “I worked darn hard and I got here because I CAN” and don’t be afraid of failure, problems and also ask for help which is not a sign of weakness.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Impostor Syndrome. Think of times where it was you trying to convince someone that they should go for it with a new job. Or maybe you tried to convince someone to just apply for a job that they liked but felt they would not get. Think of those times. Think of how strongly you believed in what you were saying as you were trying to convince this person to check out that job. Now switch this. Someone feels strongly that you will be okay at New Job. You know what that feeling is because you have done it for other people. You could ask them what they see in you that makes them think that way OR you could just decide to trust their judgement because their vantage point is different from yours.
      And another good way to combat impostor syndrome is to promise, promise, promise yourself that you will do your absolute best and you will not let YOU down. When that impost0r syndrome comes flooding in, tell yourself, “I promise me that I will not let ME down. I will learn what I need to learn. I will own my mistakes with dignity and responsibility. I will shape myself into a great employee.”

  63. Dasha*

    OK I’m new to this sort of thing… Any graphic designers or marketing folks have any advice for when people start to become really nit picky with flyers or designs? Like say, you have redesigned something multiple times and each time takes hours upon hours in Adobe CS. How do you explain that it isn’t as simple as they think to change everything around or that they need to be really specific with requests? I know that part of this comes with the territory and I have to bite the bullet but maybe there’s some advice I haven’t heard yet to better handle these things.

    1. Bekx*

      The best thing to do is to set a limit when you start. I’ll usually say “The price is X for the flyer and 4 revisions. Any additional revisions are ____” and then price by hour or by a set rate depending on what you feel comfortable with. Most people I do a flat rate.

      1. T3k*

        This. This this this this. Unfortunately I’m in a position where I can’t do that (I work as a graphic designer for a company that doesn’t charge for design fees) but if I could, I would so put in a revision limit. Most customers are good about having 2-3 revisions, but I’ve had several jobs where the customer goes “change this word” then after that proof go “oh, change this other word” another proof “oh, change the color”, etc. Sad part is, the worst one was actually my boss’ family, who do custom shirts every year for a reunion. Must have done 7 different designs before they were happy. Thankfully, I have a boss that I can be upfront with and so after the 5th new design where all the feedback was “no” I finally went “Ok, your family keeps just saying no. What exactly aren’t they liking? The font, the colors, the design, what?”

      2. K.*

        Exactly – and agencies do this too, not just freelancers. It’s standard operating procedure in my experience. The agency we used at my old company gave us three revisions; anything more cost extra. This was outlined in the quote for the work up front.

    3. Lizabeth*

      Are they changing the information in the flyer or the design of the flyer?

      I let people do one round of text editing then it becomes AA’s and charged accordingly. If they are changing the design, I let them tweak once and after that charge accordingly (more $$$ than text changes).

      Make sure that this is established up front and written in the job contract, then there’s no surprises later. Part of the trick is to get complete information up front to do the job right the first time. Don’t start work if they aren’t clear on their vision/needs. And charge for that time as well…or building it into the bid.

    4. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

      Some good ideas have been presented.

      When my wife and I were doing website dev for attorneys, we found it was helpful to insist upfront – and we’d get it in writing – that we would be working directly with a Decision-Maker, ie, someone who had the authority to say “yes, let’s go with #3”. Especially when working with larger entities, there was a tendency for our contact people to want to run the designs past their management and get back to us in a week. This led to all manner of delays and extra work. Working directly with a Decision-Maker saved everyone a lot of hassle (and also the end result tended to be better).

    5. Mockingjay*

      What about writing an SOP to govern the process? Include several drafts and reviews. Focus on a different facet during each review. Also assign stakeholders. Example:

      1. Initial draft of flyer. Review design: fonts, graphics, layout. Client and Designer.
      2. Second draft of flyer. Review text. Client and Technical Writer.
      3. Final flyer. Proof before printing/production. Quality Control.

      Add timelines for each step; this will give you metrics for hours expended and corresponding costs (your rate).

      Say a flyer takes 50 hours total if the SOP is followed. Adding extra text and changing the flyer size took 15 more hours to finalize the design. Now you can show the boss how these little, insignificant changes add up.

      I’m actually writing an plan for scope control right now. The boss is trying to control project costs and schedule, and the biggest culprit is scope creep – all the little informal requests from the customer, which eat up time and resources and weren’t part of the original, agreed tasking. Everyone wants more bang for their buck!

  64. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    Just wanted to stop in and say that I had an interview with a Fortune 50 company yesterday and I think it went pretty well! I was there for 5 hours which included a writing assessment. By the end I don’t even really know what I was saying anymore but I got through it and feel pretty positive. I should hear something soon and I’m remaining cautiously optimistic until I do hear.

  65. Kate*

    Just need to vent. I’m in charge of component A for a new grant, and I’m organizing a highly technical meeting in a few weeks to start the implementation process for component A. My boss (who is in charge of the whole grant) said, very emphatically, that no one from the donor should be invited to the meeting because it is so technical. And then this morning she sent an email copying me, the donor, and colleagues saying that we must have neglected to invite the donor and we really need to make sure we include them. So now I look unorganized (at best).
    I did point out privately to my boss that she is the one who gave me that instruction (I have the original email, so I know that I am not mis-remembering), but obviously I can’t say that to the donor, so I still look bad.

    1. fposte*

      Ooh, that’s the kind of thing that really makes me burn. I might even ask her about it. “Can you explain what was going on here? I felt like I was getting publicly dressed down for following your private orders, and I’m really confused about what you wanted.”

      1. Kate*

        That’s basically what I did (by email, since she works remotely). I am 99% sure that she just forgot that she told me not to invite the donor, but I still feel like I got screwed

        2. Anie*

          Well, now that her mistake has been pointed out to her, won’t her reasoning still be true? Can’t she go back and say, “Oh, so sorry. I didn’t realize this was done on purpose becuase the content would make attending a waste of your time and we were trying to be conscientious. If you’d like, HERE is an invite info. Otherwise, we’d understand why this particular meeting isn’t within your busy schedule.”

    2. LBK*

      I’m generally the last person to assume conspiratory motives, but this sounds intentional to me – she knew she was cutting them out but she didn’t want them to know that, so she threw you under the bus later to make it look like a mistake. Either that or they called her out on it and she didn’t want to admit she’d asked to exclude them so she opted to throw you under the bus. I would be surprised if she genuinely forgot she’d asked you to do that.

  66. Ygritte*

    Ugh, so at my current job (which is at a government agency), getting any kind of raise or compensation basically takes an act from several deities. In the latest rounds, I was promised right under 20% (which is the highest they can go without triggering an additional committee review and paperwork). I got less than half of that after two years of stuff being added and paperwork and fights.

    Now my immediate supervisor is in a tizzy because it’s hard to be enthusiastic about a job who’s only reward is more uncompensated work. I’m kind of over a barrel because my dad is sick (beginning a descent into Alzheimer’s) and this job is fairly flexible when it comes to taking time off for appointments and lawyers and things.

  67. Bekx*

    Anyone do any side jobs?

    I’m trying to save up some extra money to buy new furniture for when I **finally** move out. I’ve been doing Amazon Turk for a few months, but have only earned about $50 so far. I like that most of these tasks are done in a few minutes, but I don’t feel like the payment option is there.

    I signed up for a few secret shopper/consumer marketing places, but haven’t gotten any bites there either.

    I’m a web/graphic designer…and theoretically I could do that on the side…but honestly I’m a procrastinator and am not good with freelance when I’ve tried to do that. While I am an excellent photo retoucher and could advertise those services, I feel like craigslist really low-balls you. Plus, with web design it usually is a multi-month process and takes a lot of energy and my precious free time to do. Not to mention I can’t touch anything in my industry.

    I’ve been selling some of my old book series on ebay, but I miscalculated shipping and ended up only making about 80 bucks for 4 book series.

    I crochet, but the time involved + materials seems a bit…low money wise. People may pay 10-15 for a hat that took me 5 bucks to buy yarn and 10 hours to do. I don’t feel like I’m good enough to sell my stuff yet, anyways.

    So what do you guys do, if anything, for extra cash?

    1. Anony-moose*

      I freelance write. Happy to chat about it more if it’s helpful.

      What I’ve found is that the writing has far exceeded any other side jobs I could do. For a while I sold knit items and yarn on Etsy but the ROI was low. Same with selling books/video games on eBay and Amazon.

      But after 5 years of freelance writing I can easily charge $25 to $50 an hour and make a few hundred bucks a month with minimal effort. It just takes some time to get going which is hard if you want to hang out and watch TV after work, not build a website… (this week has been one of much procrastination on my part!)

        1. Anony-moose*

          I actually blog about it (i’ll post the link in the following comment) if you want more detail but in short I just started googling. I started on Odesk (now Upwork) and worked my way up from $8/hour to $25/hour. After 5-6 years I get most of my jobs through my network. Two people reached out to me via LinkedIn in the last 3 months, and many are referrals from other clients. It’s a lot of fun!

      2. Bekx*

        Really cool!

        I enjoy writing, but I’m not sure if it’s something that people would pay me to do. I’d definitely be interested in more information. I was good at bsing my college papers ;) (Writing a 10 page essay on a font was tons of fun. /s )

        1. Anony-Moose*

          “I enjoy writing, but I’m not sure if it’s something that people would pay me to do.”

          As soon as you start writing for money you’ll be so surprised by how wrong you are! If you can develop a niche, you can make decent money. Like any other field it takes time to build a reputation but once you have a solid portfolio and decent referrals you can definitely get paid to write.

          I write about/for nonprofits/fundraising since that’s my bread and butter anyways and have written everything from grants to thank you letters. It’s a ton of fun.

          I posted my blog about getting started a few comments up if that’s helpful. I don’t want to be self promotional at all, just want to share the writing love. I was joking the other day that I’m a bit of a freelance writing evangelist now. EVERYONE CAN WRITE! WOOT! WRITEZ FOR EVERYONEZ!

          1. I'm a Little Teapot*

            *wave* Fellow freelance writer here, though I write fiction. I really admire people who write projects for clients the way you do, because I have no idea how to get such work and writing to a client’s precise specifications would probably drive me nuts.

            I use writingcareer.com (fiction, poetry, memoir, and magazine article calls for submissions) and ralan.com (specific to science fiction, fantasy, and related genres) to find markets. The ROI is low, but it’s very satisfying.

    2. SaltWater*

      I’ve done those consumer opinion surveys on and off for several years. When I started it used to be cash on the barrel head; they’ve gone to prepaid cards now.

      For a season I was a card dealer for one of those casino party companies. This would be a good time to sign up for that. A few parties now to get some experience, then crazy busy through the end of the year. Be forewarned though: the work is almost always on Friday nights and weekends so you may miss events you want to go to.

      Consignment shops are an option if you have stuff to sell but don’t want the hassle of doing that yourself.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I make OK side money doing beta testing and user testing. Centercode tests are usually pretty well run, and I’ve made anywhere from $15/month for participating in a few surveys and discussions in a “user community” to $200-300 for a multi-week app test.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          No, I don’t think so! They usually end the application questions by asking why they should consider you for this beta test when you apply, and you could include that in your answer.

          To be honest, it’s not the most time-effective way to make some extra money, but you can pick and choose, and I tend to choose home theater and home automation gadgets, and now I can get picked for those more easily because of those that I’ve gotten into. And since I’m testing something that is related to my interests and hobbies, it’s fun, and I can still get paid for it!

    4. Oryx*

      I have an invitation and party game Etsy shop. I actually buy clip art from graphic designers that sell their items on Etsy!

    6. InterviewFreeZone*

      I do freelance event work. There are usually a lot of opportunities for this kind of thing even if you have no experience. If you have any friends who work in events, ask around.

  68. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

    Ugh. So, we have volunteers at my organization. They really like volunteering here and tend to say around for a very, very long time. Basically, we have lots of people who stay until they are too old to be capable. They are doing skilled client-facing work. So, we have a lot of older people. At least every few years, we find that one of our beloved volunteers is showing signs of memory loss and loss of control of their “filter”. In more than once case, a very sweet person has become hostile and difficult. We are totally fine with having a heart-to-heart and asking them not to volunteer anymore or to come to training. We can prevent them from having contact with clients by not scheduling them for client appointments. That part is easy. However, they keep showing up for training, and spending the time ranting, yelling, and generally being very off topic and helpful. Despite directly telling them (more than once) that we can’t tolerate that kind of behavior since it prevents us from carrying on with the training, they keep showing up. We are pretty sure that they don’t recall our previous conversations where we clearly said that since the behavior has continued, they cannot attend anymore. We’ve taken them off the e-mail list so they aren’t reminded about meetings, but these things happen on a set schedule that is tough to change, so they are coming anyway. Even though they don’t need training for something they aren’t doing anymore, these meetings seem to serve a social purpose for people.

    We really believe this is age related, and we don’t want to be disrespectful or mean to an elderly person who has given a tremendous amount of their time and energy to the organization over several decades. However, this obviously can’t continue. We really need a system for handling them so that it doesn’t go on so long – it’s likely to happen again and again as more volunteers age. Any ideas for getting a person to stop coming to a meeting when they can’t remember that you told them not to come?

    1. fposte*

      Holy cow, Ashley, I don’t have any answers but I’m hoping somebody with experience does. As somebody who isn’t in your position, I find the challenge rather fascinating; as somebody who may one day be in their position, I also find it resonant.

    2. MsM*

      I think you’re just going to have to designate someone to play “bouncer,” gently remind them that you’ve discussed the meetings not being the best fit for them any more, and send them home or call their families (or be prepared to do so if they become disruptive).

    3. Buttonhole*

      How about writing it down, as in a letter? And then but a post-it note on the door “Jane, go away!” – OK, that is a joke. But maybe writing it down will help? Can you contact the person’s relatives in any way and ask for their help. Is there a way of rescheduling all such events in the future at different times and rooms that will make it harder for similar elderly folks to do the same? Escort the person very gently out of the room, and then offer her a cup of tea, saying “Jane, dear, no you will find this so boring, but let me show you our new display in the lobby” ie distract her. Could you lock the door, asking someone to keep an eye out for non-Janes who arrive late to be let in?

      This may not work, but can you not find a way to actually include her in the training, she probably has some expertise, of course give the person guidance on what to do. Make her hand out things to the attendees, and give her a time slot to speak and share her experience, provided she then behaves during the rest of the course. Or is that too much of a gamble? Maybe this person just wants to feel important and valued and you need to find ways of doing that, within bounds of course.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        You know, we had not thought about putting in writing. That’s a good idea though. (We tend to default to having a direct conversation, and don’t always think of that). We’ve hesitated about contacting relatives – in part because it feels disrespectful to the volunteer, and in part because we feel like the family member might feel like we were overstepping. These aren’t cases where the person is totally detached from reality, and we are worried about infantalizing them. But I do like the idea of writing them a letter, and handing it to them at the end of a conversation.

      2. LBK*

        Yeah, I like the idea of putting it in writing – maybe not asking them not to volunteer anymore via letter, because I agree doing that face-to-face is better, but a follow up letter sent to their home right after the most recent discussion? Something that thanks them for their service but firmly reminds them that that service is now terminated.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        You could spin it as, “Thank you for your __ years of service.” Then go on with a personal message that relates only to the individual’s unique contribution. Perhaps have it done up like a certificate they can hang on the wall.

    4. Meg Murry*

      When you say “they” is it 1-2 people now coming to the trainings and interrupting, or is it more like “someone becomes disruptive for 6 months, and then we finally get that person dealt with and then a new person starts to be disruptive?”

      If it’s starting to become a larger group, could you offer 2 sets of trainings – one billed for “returning long time volunteers” in the current timeslot of the current training, and another one at a different time that is the real, actual training? And let your volunteers that are actually doing the client work know that the 2nd training is mandatory for them but the first one is optional?

      Alternately, can you find a different task at the same time? Oh look Susie, I’m glad you’re here, can you fold these brochures for me?” “oh, but I”m supposed to be at training” “yes, well, you know all that stuff already, you’ve been doing this for so long. Just sit and chat with me instead”

      I understand where this is coming from – my town has a long standing tradition of people serving on committees and commissions for years and years, and at some point they either don’t have the mental faculty to keep doing it, or their health issues means they miss every other meeting. But how do you kick someone off of a committee that they’ve been on for years and years? On the other hand, these commissions only have a certain number of seats, and are an actual voting body that need quorum (more than a majority) of attendees there to vote, so it gets annoying if someone is taking up a seat they aren’t using and someone else could be appointed. We’ve (half) joked that we need some kind of additional committee that is tasked with something that would be nice if they accomplished, but not mission critical, so we could move all these volunteers to that committee, and they could still feel useful but it wouldn’t matter if nothing actually got done.

      Is there some other program you could create for these former volunteers? How do most of them get to your facility? If they aren’t still driving, could you talk to their kids or whoever is bringing them?

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Oooo! I like that idea of a different task at the same time. That way they could socialize before and after, and then do something helpful and important but low-risk in another room.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        That’s what I was going to say — there must be some envelopes that need stuffing or whatever that could happen while the meeting is going on. If there are more than one of them, they could keep each other company doing the same task.

    5. the_scientist*

      Is this one volunteer or several volunteers? Is there any way you could hold a retirement ceremony of some type for them? If they can’t remember a conversation, they might remember a ceremony/tea/party thanking them for their years of service. Give them an official letter and a small gift, which serve both as actual gifts (after all, after decades of dedication they truly deserve recognition of some kind) and as physical reminders of the event? And then, have an organizer “bounce” at the meetings as someone else suggested. Likely it’s as much a social outlet as anything else, and it sucks to cut that lifeline……

      This is a super interesting question! I volunteer for an org that has a similar demographic, although I don’t think they are quite as elderly as yours because they still have to be quite physically mobile and reasonably strong. However, I have seen some active volunteers who are quite clearly liabilities due to frailty/lack of physical strength and it’s like “……yikes”, but of course nobody wants to have a hard conversation with someone who’s been around the org for decades.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Well, right this minute it’s one person, but we see two others who seem to be headed in this direction. And it’s come up one person at a time over the years. I really like the idea of having a retirement ceremony – something to honor them in a way that’s respectful. That might also be a way for us to invite their family and friends so that someone else is aware that they are officially retired.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I love this idea. And it would also give you something to refer back to if they show up in the future — “Jane! How nice of you to stop by and see us even though you retired. Only current volunteers need to go to the training, but here, come over to the office with Fergus for a few minutes and he’ll show you some of the latest projects we’ve been doing.”

      3. Gillian*

        I’m involved with an arts nonprofit that is working on something very similar. Many of our board members – especially the executive board officers, the “newest” of which has a 25 year tenure – are getting to the point where they’re either losing their filters or just becoming a bit less sharp mentally and it’s starting to affect our donor outcomes. Examples:
        – In a end of year wrap-up speech at our donor appreciation party, one went off on a tangent about how awful city taxes (almost totally irrelevant to our operations) are and how more people should give us money, instead of thanking the donors that were there and we do have.
        – A major foundation grant proposal that we do every year was neglected because the volunteer in charge of it for the past 20 years forgot it was July (not forgot that the paperwork was due in July, but forgot what month it was).

        We’ve had an “emeritus board” in our bylaws for decades and never used it before last year. It allows any board member to still come to meetings (which are run as potlucks out of people’s homes and are their major social event of the month) and participate behind the scenes without giving them voting rights or being able to represent the organization externally. This helps us be able to officially thank them for their service (the emeritus board is listed on all of our materials with the current slate of board members) and keep in touch to use their experience and knowledge without having to worry so much about them causing a disruption (unintentional, obviously) in the organization’s business. This is an all-volunteer group (no employees) that claims to be a family rather than a business, so it’s been tough to navigate these relationships without any hurt feelings.

        Now if we could only get those who most need to take advantage of emeritus status to do so (it’s sort of like Alison’s post earlier this week about believed competence).

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          We’ve thought about having an “emeritus” group of some sort, where we honor them and invite them to certain things, and give them a new title (volunteer emeritus vs. volunteer). Thanks for explaining how this plays out for you.

    6. W.*

      Does this person have an emergency contact you can reach out to and explain the situation to. (If not you should start taking emergency contact information from all your volunteers.) A grandparent did similar things to neighbors who informed relatives which led to a whole system of carers and later a care home.

      This person hopefully has a carer/relative who is able to help, but if not perhaps you should ask social services to look into it – in that this person is forgetful and angry/ violent ? and you’re concerned for their health and safety/wellbeing as well as your colleagues. Could be something that you call local police about and they start a social investigation (you’d hope) or would find their relative to help out.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I’m not concerned about safety – more inappropriateness that derails the (important!) training we are doing for the other volunteers. For example, I had one person (who has since died) who would constantly interrupt with rants about how it was outrageous that he was not allowed to talk to the clients about Jesus while providing service (which he was no longer providing, but he didn’t remember/realize that). We are most certainly not a religious organization, and I think our clients would feel pretty violated when they came for one service and then someone turned it into a religious conversation. We were totally direct in our responses to this (“Jim, this is inappropriate, not relevant, and it’s not something we are going to discuss at any point. Please stop talking about this so that others can take part in the conversation” and then “Jim, that’s enough, either let others speak or you will have to leave”), and met with him individually several times. During these private meetings, he was contrite and apologetic , but then it happened again. He was yelling, but in a “Jesus is really important to me” way, not a threatening way.

        1. W.*

          Well if they’re having memory issues it can develop into a safety issue (for him) and is something you can contact their emergency contact person about – Wakeen has turned up to the training event on multiple occasions even though we have spoken with about this and unfortunately his behavior had been inappropriate, we are concerned that he may be having memory issues are you able to speak to him.
          But I do like the above letter retirement idea, but it is still something that it’s a good idea to inform the family about, it’s the kind of thing that can fall through the cracks until things get really bad if everyone is too embarrassed to speak up about it, or check that this person has someone helping them out.

    7. TCO*

      Great ideas here. VolunteerMatch used to offer a webinar on this topic; it doesn’t look like it’s recorded or currently being offered, but I found the slide deck. Perhaps it will offer a bit of help: http://www.slideshare.net/volunteermatch/volunteer-transitions-resources

      Your organization might not have the capacity for this, but I like the suggestions about offering an alternative activity, whether that be a volunteer task or a strictly social activity. Could managing these tricky volunteers be a volunteer project in itself? If you have a particularly kind, gentle, and experienced volunteer, perhaps she/he could take this on as a special project. They could be charged with being the “buddy” for anyone who shows up uninvited, offering another activity. They might also be able to organize a retirement ceremony, special communications/tokens, or whatever else you and they think will help.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I like the retirement ceremony idea. Also, is there any way to have a kind of tenure, so when people reach this milestone it’s after a certain amount of years of service? Like companies do, with five years you get a certificate, ten you get a small plaque, at fifteen you get a retirement ceremony with a little medal or something?

  69. I am now a llama*

    I work in a “do more, more, more!”environment so when I finished up a major project, my manager’s next sentence was ok what’s next?

    I’ve seen discussions on here about not tying personal emotions to work accomplishments. Any tips on this?

    I want to celebrate my victory without thinking I need to do even more next time immediately after.

    1. W.*

      Can you celebrate yourself – take yourself out for a nice lunch/cake and coffee – glass of wine. Or set up a nice evening out with girlfriends etc.

    2. LBK*

      I’d build a translator in your head that converts “what’s next?” to “I was so thrilled with the work you did on the last project that I’m giving the next one to you right now” – because realistically that’s kind of what it means, since if you’d done a crappy job they probably wouldn’t be rushing to give you more work.

      I’d also think about what you really want in those moments, because it doesn’t seem clear to me. Are you looking for a pause between projects? Some kind of actual celebration? Just verbal confirmation that you did a good job? Something as simple as your manager saying thanks? That will guide you towards what will help, since it could be a range of things like asking your manager for feedback to having your own private celebration, as W. said.

    3. PX*

      If you can, take a day off/long week. I normally find myself mentally exhausted after finishing long projects, so I love treating myself to a day to just be a sloth at home and do nothing!

  70. AP Ferengi*

    I live and work in one of the most beautiful places in the country. Unfortunately the local slogan is “A view of the bay is worth half the pay.” And I do make much less here with a high cost of living.
    My question is, is it worth it to take a higher paying job in an area that might not be as pretty?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think that’s a call anybody can make for you.

      I’ve lived and worked in San Francisco and loved it; I was young and the tradeoffs were right for me at the time. Now I’m older and I work in a LCOL area with no particular scenic notability, and I really love my life here–it’s easy to get around, I have good friends, I love to cook, I can save for retirement, etc.

      So what gives you satisfaction and pleasure? How would the now and later fit with your overall life and work trajectory?

    2. danr*

      Yes, you will discover hidden beauty where you go, and appreciate your home view even more when you come home from work .

      1. LBK*

        This sounds kind of cheesy but it’s so true. I moved to a not-super-great-looking neighborhood a couple years ago, but I discovered if you stood at the right angle on the street next to mine you had this gorgeous shot of the downtown skyline. That little glimpse of the city always perked me up.

      2. Steve G*

        I totally agree, I get totally excited about such “normal” places outside of NYC. It would seem so exciting to me living on 2 acres in a 4 bedroom house with tree lines roads and mountains…which is like how millions of people in the NE live….meanwhile, I paid 2X what I’d pay for that for a small house in NYC and am constantly frustrated by the traffic, noise, lack of parking, and oddities of certain areas, like the fact that the uber expensive Williamsburg area has so few delis. Being in an expensive area does not = luxury or beautiful

        1. InterviewFreeZone*

          I’m in my early 30s and have friends who have made it their career goal to be able to afford a place in Williamsburg. Some of them have gotten there only to discover exactly what you just said. Umm and that it’s full of like early 20 something rich kids, NYU students, and a hell of a lot of noise.

          Meanwhile, I’m starting to fantasize about moving somewhere that $1000/month would get me a 4 bedroom house lol.

          1. Steve G*

            I started working in the rich part of Williamsburg last month, and I find it weird/annoying that an area with such ridiculous rents/apartment prices has so few services – delis, dry cleaners, grocery stores. Everything is coffee houses or bars with limited food choices (a few desserts, a few sandwiches, a few salads….) or expensive restaurants. It’s very ironic bringing food when I can afford to eat out every day and work in an area that has a lot of people, and a lot of people making in the mid-$100Ks. If I made that much, I’d want luxury, as in, hunting down food and basic services wouldn’t be a chore.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Rich people don’t use those directly, I guess. They might have groceries, dry cleaning, and other things delivered. So it doesn’t matter if they’re not right there because they don’t have to take their shirts in or pick them up or grab a gallon of milk. And the fancy shops make the neighborhood look “nice.”

              I noticed that in London too, when I was farking around in Hampstead. The areas where the shops were located was just….nicer. No big loud off-licence signs, etc. It was like the difference between strip malls here in my city–south side all have nice clothing stores, restaurants, etc. My end has smoke shops, flea markets, and Dollar General. And of course I cannot forget the pawn shop on the corner. :P

    3. AnnieNonymous*

      While money is a primary concern, don’t nickel-and-dime yourself out of your current job if you otherwise have no issues with it. Always factor the commute into the job (it’s the commute, not the work itself, that will have you hitting the snooze button), and make sure you have a good sense of how generous your current company is with benefits/flex time in relation to the rest of your industry.

      That said (and this is a bit of a tangent, but it’s relevant), consider whether you want to tie yourself to a region that is defined by its youth culture. I don’t know much about the Bay Area (which I assume is where you are), but take time to observe whether the current residents are staying there or if there’s a constant influx of new, younger people. I live in an area with a thriving hipster/art/music culture, and while I enjoy it, I’m very aware that my days here are numbered. There simply aren’t a lot of options for people who stay here past the age of 35.

      1. AP Ferengi*

        Actually I’m in Northern Michigan. It’s very family-friendly here, which I love, but I’d like to be able to afford my own house soon and I just can’t so that on my current salary.

        1. AnnieNonymous*

          Hmm, well it sounds like you’re having all of the right thought processes about this stuff.

          As a side note, I’m permanently annoyed at how the housing market is largely geared toward coupled people/families. Obviously single people with good incomes can buy homes, but it’s idiotic that grown adults with otherwise workable salaries aren’t able to buy homes unless their relationship status aligns a certain way.

    4. Ad Astra*

      It depends. If you’re living in one of the most beautiful places in the country, you can probably find a more affordable location that’s still easy on the eyes. I wouldn’t pay a premium to jump from a nice place to a stunning place, but I probably wouldn’t drop down from a nice place to an ugly place just to save money. (Right now I live in a very affordable city that is extremely mediocre in many ways, including the views.)

      For me, things like culture, nightlife, restaurants, and convenience would be more important than beauty. But there are a lot of more affordable cities I’d pick over beloved places like New York and San Francisco because, to me, it’s not worth the money.

      1. Charby*

        I agree. On top of that, it might be possible to live *near* the Dream Place without necessarily living *in* it, if you don’t mind using public transportation or driving when you want to see the sights. It would be unfortunate at least for me to live in a lovely place but never get to see it because I have to spend all my time at work to make ends meet and being too stressed out to really unwind. I’d rather live 45 minutes from “the bay” for full pay than 10 minutes from “the bay” for 50% of the pay.

        But honestly though it’s a matter of priorities, there aren’t really good or bad priorities just different ones. If you can easily afford to live comfortably at “half the pay” (or whatever it is the rate is at that area) I wouldn’t feel pressured to move somewhere ugly for more money either.

  71. ACA*

    Someone is having a lunch event in the lobby outside my office, and the smell of the pizza wafting in is making me ravenous. It’s probably bad office etiquette to steal some, isn’t it?

      1. Buttonhole*

        Go buy your own pizza, or else why don’t you just ask? Tell them it is their fault for letting you smell the pizza.

    2. Brett*

      Just ask. We have food at our location all the time because of various events. If they have none to spare or otherwise cannot share (e.g. goofy grant restrictions), they will say no.

      It is just as bad etiquette to have a lunch event in or near someone’s office space and not be able to feed them too.

      1. Cassie-O*

        I agree, wait ’til it seems like most of the intended attendees have taken their pizza, and then ask! Chances are they will be glad for your help in making sure it doesn’t go to waste.

      2. T3k*

        Eh, bad etiquette, maybe not. A friend of mine works for a large department (about 100 people) that has a bunch of smaller departments in it. They have almost bi-weekly events where they need to call in catering, but sometimes the event is only for one department (say, doctors have a scheduled program or nurses are doing a workshop). I kid you not, my friend has to stand there and guard the food to make sure the right people get their food first because others from another department will otherwise try to sneak in and get something. May not sound like a big deal except if even 10 others tried to get food, there’d be none left for the intended group (they try not to order too much as, obviously, it costs more to do so). They’ve also had problems where complete outsiders (they work in a shared building with other companies) will sneak in and walk off with food, though now that they’ve installed keypads on all entering doors, that hasn’t been as big of an issue. If there is food left over after the intended department gets theirs, then they let all the rest know there’s extras and they can come and get some.

  72. NDR*

    Let’s say you were not an event planner but had meeting/conference/party planning duties in your position. Would it interest you/make sense for you to attend a 2 hour seminar on planning basics, taught by event professionals? If so, what sorts of things would you want to learn?

    And what types of resources would you want to leave with? Examples would be budget templates, vendor referrals, timeline templates, checklists, etc.

    1. Cassie-O*

      Lots of templates and checklists, yes! Also an understanding of the *minimum* that needs to happen to pull off any event, vs the higher-level stuff that makes an event great.

    2. Retail Lifer*

      Event planning is a small portion of my job and I came into this job with NO event experience and got no training. The things I initially struggled with were trying to figure out roughly how many attendees would even show up, how to staff it, and how to find vendors. My first couple of events were trainwrecks with not enough staff, activities, or supplies. Any kind of timeline or checklist would have been appeciated since I walked in with nothing.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I would love this. I think e it could go wrong if the professional event planner makes it sound like things need to be more complex and detailed than they need to be in the case of your employees. So, if the pro is something who plans $100,000 weddings where there’s an expectation of creating a perfect fairy-tale, and that’s their frame, it could end up being overwhelming and making people feel less confident rather than more confident. So I’d make sure you have someone who can simplify the most important parts.

      Personally, I’d like to have tips on working with vendors, since this is a type of vendor I don’t have a lot of experience with. How much notice to caterers expect? Who should I tip? Are their any hidden costs I should expect? What do the vendors expect from me? For example, I know that you can usually increase your guaranteed number by x%, but you can’t decrease it. That’s not obvious to someone who isn’t used to working with a caterer and could end up being frustrating. There can be a lot of assumptions when working with a new type of vendor that results in conflict, and I’d love to hear an insider’s view.

    4. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Also, I have sometimes done a really quick employee survey before something like this. What questions do people want answered? What topics feel most important?

    5. TCO*

      This would be relevant to my current job and I wish it existed! I think it’s really easy for an inexperienced planner to overlook so many details, particularly about setting up a venue: what should I expect the venue to do and what do I do myself? Do we need signs to the bathroom? Coatracks? A table to hold nametags? Are there power outlets in the right places?

    6. NDR*

      Thanks, all! A former coworker and I (both event planners but with very different types of experience) were thinking of pitching a single class or series of classes to a spot in our area that hosts workshops and seminars. They want a bit of information on your class plan and target audience, so I have been trying to figure out what would appeal to potential attendees.

      I would definitely want to keep it to basics unless I got requests for more intricate details. I appreciate all the ideas!

  73. TotesMaGoats*

    Got to make a job offer today and the candidate accepted!! Yay!!! I might be able to get my actual job done now.

    I’ve been going through our files and finding so many things wrong. It boggles the mind. Like really wrong. And they wonder why numbers are low.

  74. Cassie-O*

    My cube-mate is weirdly in tune to every little physical thing I do, and it’s getting on my nerves.

    If I’m talking to her and I scratch my ankle, she’ll say, “Got a mosquito bite?”
    If I sneeze, she’ll say, “Allergies?” or “Getting a cold?”
    If I eat a cracker, she’ll say, “Having your mid day snack?”
    If I put on my sweater: “Feeling chilly?”
    If my hair looks slightly different: “Oh, decided to change up your hair today?”

    Do I just ignore/downplay it or do I ask her not to comment on such things? It weirds me out that she pays so much attention to my bodily functions, but I think that’s just the way she is. She has slightly boundary issues elsewhere, as well. She’s older than me and a mom, so maybe that’s part of it!

    1. Retail Lifer*

      I would just answer every question with “no” even if it was blatantly obvious that yes, I’m having a snack and yes, people put on sweaters when they’re chilly.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I would probably just make comments like “Wow, you really notice a lot about me!” and hope that it stopped, but I don’t know if that’s the best way to handle it. If a comment like that didn’t stop it, I’d probably just tolerate it; it’s annoying but I personally wouldn’t care enough to have an actual conversation about it.

    3. Rebecca*

      I’ve heard people finally reply, “what, are you writing a book? Why do you need to know?” to make the point that the questions are becoming obtrusive.

      She might be lonely, or just want to start a conversation, and she’s awkward, but this is a bit much. If my office mate did this, I’d ask her why she’s so interested all of a sudden, and make it clear if I was having problems I’d let her know.

    4. W.*

      Do you talk to her? She might be a chatty/bored person who wants to get to know you/ have someone to take to/connect with and is taking *any* little piece of information you provide as an opportunity to do so. I’d actually turn it around and do the same to her- not in a creepy way but in a trying to make a connection way – and try and make some small talk or a bit more than that if you can. Or just return her comments with a question – yes it is a bit chilly in here – how are you finding it, yes I like snacks – have you brought any? Etc.
      If she’s still weird then I’d follow other people’s advice.

    5. LBK*

      So, my cube neighbor does this and most of the time I just don’t respond. At all. If I’m feeling extra friendly, I’ll give a confirmatory grunt but that’s it. Busybodies like this won’t usually be offended if you don’t answer, so while it probably won’t get her to stop, it will at least relieve you of feeling obligated to engage.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like she is grasping at straws to make conversation. Do you and she converse at all during the day? Do you prefer not to converse? If so, maybe that is the actual conversation you need to have. ” Sue, I am actually a very quiet coworker. I am not ignoring you, I am just concentrating. I don’t do much in the way of small talk, but if you need something I want to know and I will help you.”

  75. Lizzie's Patronus*

    I posted last week, about my interview in Philly with a manager that had an issue with me being from NY. Thanks to all who offered feedback.

    In continued adventures, I was told they would have a decision this week but instead I was asked to come back for a third time, just to meet with the manager again. She did not mention NY at all this time but asked me very probing questions that I felt were a bit personal in the way that she probed many answers for more details. Such as:

    Manager: I didn’t see any education on your resume? Did you go to school?
    Me: I did not go to college, I was on my own at a young age and started working
    Manager: Did you just feel it was unimportant?

    Which I now had to elaborate and again say I lost my mother at a young age and was on my own, etc… I didn’t want her to think I didn’t find it important but I mean what more do you really need to me to say. Then she commended me on my writing skills, given I don’t have a degree. It felt strangely complimentary and condescending at the same time. She probed what I did at each non-profit I volunteered for and asked why I was no longer working with them (some are back in NY and 3 hours away?). She made a statement about me not having a career path which I assume was related to the answer I gave to the ‘where do you see yourself’ question that she asked me about, and then asked me to elaborate on. Guess I wasn’t specific enough.

    It felt intrusive to be honest. And at this point I’ve been interviewing at your company for a month, met with 6 people, my patience was wearing thin. At the end I asked if there was anything else I could answer or any hesitations that she wanted to discuss. She had kept saying it needed to be the right fit for the company and that people stay there a long time. So she said she felt that I lived in NJ and that could mean that I would take this job only until another job came up closer to home. She even mentioned the city taxes I would have to pay in Philly. (I just completed a 6 month contract role in Philly btw).

    WTF??? First being from NY means I’m harsh, now living in NJ means I won’t keep the job? why have me come in if you already have all these preconceived notions about who I am? I assured her that I am looking for a full time role and have no intentions of securing a position while continuing to look. I paln to stay in the city (but of course didn’t ring the bell of the fact I’m a city mouse lest it remind her I’m from NY!)

    Is THIS what interviewing has become now? I feel tired. I was so excited about this position when I first saw it posted, in July. Today it feels like a huge waste of time and energy.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      As someone who also doesn’t have a college degree (because of life circumstances, not because I don’t think education is important), I’d find those comments irritating and off-putting as well!

      1. Retail Lifer*

        Seriously. I went to college but had to space out my associate’s and bachelor’s by more than 10 years due to finaces and other life stuff getting in the way. And it is certainly not possible for everyone to go at all.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          Right, exactly. I think being able to go is a privilege. It’s not feasible for everyone financially. I went for 2 years but had to drop out due to medical reasons. I’ve continued to take classes but it’s a very slow process and I may never get a degree. I hate that not having a degree is sometimes held against me even though I am good at my job, have a decade of experience, and continue to show that I DO prioritize learning. Some people go to college just because it’s a thing you do after high school, so it’s not a given that going to college means you’re smarter or more motivated than someone who didn’t. There are plenty of brilliant people who went to college and earned their degree, but there are also plenty of brilliant people who did not.

      2. Lizzie's Patronus*

        Thanks. I’m clearly on fire about the whole thing right now. I’m not quite sure how I am supposed to respond to questions about things that I cannot change and are neither good or bad, at least in my view (where I’m from, where I live, etc.) and very probing questions of this nature.

        At the end she actually apologized for the round of “difficult questions”. I just politely left.

    2. Buttonhole*

      To be honest, I would not want to work for this person even if I needed the job. There are too many red flags here. This person may be a nightmare to work with as she sounds terribly prejudiced. Did she really say “you write well, even though you don’t have a degree”? Gosh, rude! You should have said “my goodness, did YOU really have to finish a degree before you could write? Now me, I am so smart I just needed basic schooling to learn to be a pro writer”.

      1. Brian*

        I feel the same way – an organization that ignores quality candidates because they don’t have a piece of paper from a university, despite a successful professional track record, strong reputation and marketable skills, is an organization run by stupid people who don’t understand the difference between a proxy indicator of qualifications and actual qualifications.

        1. MsM*

          Agreed. This woman obviously feels you’ve got something to prove to her beyond the basic expectations facing a new employee, and even if it’s possible to do so, do you really want to put up with constant second-guessing and bending over backwards to show that you’re the “right fit” in order to do it?

        2. Retail Lifer*

          Seriously. Marketable skills would be a whole lot more useful to me in my job search right now than this useless degree.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think this is what interviewing has become, necessarily; I think she’s just not good at it. If she would be your direct manager, though, I think you’ve gotten some clear signs that you and she would not work well together, and it’s worth considering whether you want to go forward with that distinct possibility.

    4. Lizzie's Patronus*

      I do need the job but don’t feel I can take this job and work closely with her. I should not be taking her behavior personally of course, she’s reacting to something I assume that has nothing to do with me. Regardless, I wouldn’t feel comfortable working with someone that I felt like was looking down on me in any way.

      But I highly doubt I’ll be offered the job. I clearly challenge and confuse her, I feel, so I can’t see her choosing me when I’m one of 3 finalists.

      There IS another job at this organization and they are large enough I would hope it’s in another area. My meeting with HR went very well so I’m considering reaching out to them once I hear the final decision and perhaps apply to the other.

      Thanks everyone, interacting with this woman has really set me off.

    5. Charby*

      This does seem unusually bad. In my experience interviewers are a lot more polite. If I were more cynical I would suggest that the interviewer was trying to rattle your cage as part of some awful theory about how to get “‘real’ answers, not ‘canned’ answers” or something like that. But honestly I just think that this interviewer is inexperienced and uncomfortable and is pushing that onto you.

      Do you know if you’ll be working under this person if you accept the job?

      1. Lizzie's Patronus*

        She would be my direct manager, that’s why I feel I can’t take it if offered (it won’t be).

        I had thought maybe she was having a hard time deciding between the finalists and this was some kind of therapeutic analysis to get a sense of who we were to help her make a decision.

        It’s funny, a friend said I should have set a boundary with her when she started to get a bit rude. I’m so used to trying to be polite and present myself well, I normally wouldn’t think that was necessary in an interview. But in addition, I had gone in with the “be mindful not to be too direct” given she was concerned my NY harshness would be an issue if I got the role.

        Oh how ridiculous. At least I know better if I ever feel someone is overstepping again.

        1. Sunshine Brite*

          Oh, I know it’s hard when you need a job, but don’t take it. The microagressions were strong and backhanded coded language already throughout the interview, I can’t imagine how angry it would make me over time.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          It’s an interview not a battlefield, though. I don’t think that you should have to set boundaries on an interview. You are both “shopping”, she is shopping for an employee and you are shopping for a job.

          I see red flags all over the place here, too. I hope you do not take the job if offered. I cannot imagine 8 hours a day, 5 days a week of this constant analysis stuff. She is so busy analyzing every little thing, I cannot see where she could possibly be getting any work done. Keep in mind that people are usually on their best behavior and most likable during an interview. That may or may not change once you start the job. I can’t see this getting better.

    6. Anonsie*

      I’m not gonna lie, I feel like this type of interaction is really common in that whole region and it’s a big part of why I moved away from there.

  76. asteramella*

    My boss’s boss’s boss’s new hobbyhorse is how he envisions the company becoming the Uber of our industry. (Meaning a successful disrupter of industry norms.)

    It is hard to bite my tongue and not say that we’re already like Uber … in that we’re being investigated by a regulatory agency regarding worker misclassification. Sigh.

    2. Steve G*

      Ha! On a side note, I noticed an Uber car in an obscure area of inner NYC outside of Manhattan…with PA license plates. So not only does he get screwed by Uber, but he screws his insurance company by pretending to live out of state. Not exactly the direction I think society should be going

  77. Jenniy*

    Help!
    I’m in my senior capstone course for my B.S in Business. 30%of our grade is coming up with our own business, and writing a complete business plan with financials.
    I have my business (that was the easy part -a garage that targets female customers, where women don’t have to worry about being taken for a ride – haha get it?)
    But the teacher is giving us zero support and instructions. This is actually common for him. We had an assignment last week to do a franchise comparison, and half the class did poorly because he gave no instructions other than “complete and submit” – kinda important to include that whatever franchises you research to fill do the comparison need to be in the same industry. I even emailed and asked him if they needed to be related and was told “do whatever you are comfortable with,” and had to redo it once he told another student they had to be related.
    ANYWAYS did anyone have something like this during their degree? Where did you go to estimate the financials? I’m open to other suggestions as well. We have to do a full set of financial statements (not that he says exactly what he wants that to include, or what time period like 3 or 5 years). I have business plan pro but without figures to give it it cant help me, and I don’t know where to get them from.
    Unless I just make my prices, and estimate customers?(I hope this isn’t a dumb question)

    1. Escalator Temporarily Stairs - Sorry for the Convenience!*

      Have you tried talking to repair shops in your area. Even if they aren’t comfortable sharing numbers, maybe they can at least give you percentages or ranges. For example, I do some back-office work for liquor stores and they can pretty much count on having 15-25% profit margin in my area; 20% is average, 15% is if you’re doing a terrible job (or, say, another store opens up in your geographic area) and 25% is if you have a really strong customer base for a high-end store. I think that would give you a pretty good starting point from which you can start making educated estimates for everything else.

    2. MsM*

      In the absence of clear directions from him, I think you either need to err on the side of being overly inclusive, or do what makes sense for the business. If it’s going to take longer for you to ramp up to full capacity, or you have an expansion plan somewhere in there, you have a longer timeline than if you expect to be fully functional and self-sustaining within three years. Same with what’s actually in the financials. How many employees do you have? What are average salaries in your area for those positions? Does that take taxes and benefits into account? What equipment and supplies do you need? What’s the depreciation on those? Do you own the garage outright, or are you going to be renting? Are you accounting for utilities and overhead? How many customers does your market research tell you that you can expect, what services are you offering, and what rates do you need to charge to make a profit without driving people to a cheaper competitor? Are you going to be doing any advertising or making any special offers to drum up business, and how does that affect the bottom line?

      Do some research and see if you can find examples in annual reports or investor prospectuses. You may even want to reach out to some comparative businesses and see if they’d be willing to talk to you; they can be surprisingly helpful if you’re clear it’s for a school project.

    3. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      I had a similar assignment where I had to price out the production costs for a documentary film with no support from the professor. I took a lot of haphazard googling to find out what the rental costs for camera crews and equipment would be, and unfortunately that’s the only advice I really have “google at will” and pull together what seems relevant.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Obviously I can’t read your instructor’s mind, but I did something like this before.

      While the basic structure was factual I didn’t have access to the numbers so I made them up using my best guess. Given that in the real world finding the numbers isn’t the hard part so I think you can make them up and then you that as the basis for a financial statement which should be calculations based off of those numbers. You can still be dinged if the calculations are wrong.

    6. Ella*

      My public library district has a service where small business owners (or small business starters) can access demographic data about different neighborhoods in the city. You could examine the number of garages that already exist, where they are (and aren’t), who owns cars, etc.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      OMG. I can so relate to this. I had to do an M and A. The key piece was estimating the market price of the targeted company. omg. It was one of those three or four day turn around assignments. I worked on it for 8 hours a day all four days. I used all the wrong formulas, all the wrong data, and I arrived at the wrong answer. I decided that dollar amount was too large. I googled. I found one guy who did M and As who said, “Take the number you arrive at and reduce it by 50%.” I used his name and website in a reference. I reduced my answer by 50%.

      I got a 92 on that assignment. Go figure.

      I bet you have that same prof. sigh.

      One thing I would suggest is review your class notes. MAKE SURE you are trying to use the stuff the prof has mentioned in class. It could be using references to well known business writers or thinkers. It could be using actual terms that you learned in class. If he likes pie charts, you better have some in there somewhere. If he spent days going over X analysis, you know that is his baby and he will be looking for it in your paper.

      I feel for you, I really do. To this day I hate fn M and As. Hate ’em. Let us know how you make out with this.

      1. Jenniy*

        We have no class notes, it’s an online course. The assignment literally says “students will submit a complete business plan, including financials.”

  78. Escalator Temporarily Stairs - Sorry for the Convenience!*

    How many of you out there own your own business? It seems like AAM probably has a majority office-worker audience, but I’m wondering, who out there is an entrepreneur? Do you moonlight or do it full time? How’d you get started? What’s your biggest reward/challenge?

    I work full time but really want to start my own business. The catch is that I co-own a business with my husband that takes up another 40+ hours of my time in the summer (closer to 25 per week in the fall/winter), so trying to find time and energy to start my own company is tough. Plus, I have way too many ideas; I’m kind of a generalist and know how to do a lot of different things fairly well without being a specialist in any one of them. The best reward, though, is seeing something that we’ve built for ourselves and not The Man.

    1. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

      My wife and I have owned a biz in the past. It was highly educational and we made a lot of money from it, too. Offhand observations:

      – Find a niche. Ours was websites for attorneys.

      – Never work for free. We’d insist on half the money up-front. It is very important that your client have skin in the game.

      – Make sure your customers have the time and money to work with you. Lawyers were great this way. Restaurants were the worst.

      – When problems happened, and there was nothing we could do to directly fix the problem (ex: an ISP went down), the best thing to do is keep the client informed.

      – Know when to call it quits. We were lucky enough to establish a foothold in a niche at just the right time. But the world changed, as it does, and there came a time when our original business model was simply not working well enough to justify continuing. We needed to either modify our biz or quit; for [reasons] it made more sense for us to quit.

      Good luck! If I were doing this again today, I’d again target a niche market and then get very involved in whatever online communities exist around it.

  79. Tiffany*

    I was laid-off at the end of August and while I would like to take my time and find a job that’s going to be the right fit, that’s not really financially possible right now. Unfortunately, hiring is typically pretty slow in my industry. Since that could very well take some time, I’m also looking at a job that I can get easily that would get me through until something better comes up. I’ve got tons of call center experience, so I should be able to get something pretty quickly. My question is, should I put that on my resume? My inclination is no, because I don’t think it would look good to list a job that I’ve only been in short-term and already be looking for something new. While I don’t think there’d be an issue with not listing it at first, if my real job search takes months, when do I hit the point where too long of an employment gap starts becoming an issue. I feel like it’s kind of a ‘rock and hard place’ type of thing. Is leaving it off my resume and then just putting a line in my cover letter that says something like ‘since being laid-off from my last position I have been working at ____ to make ends meet, while continuing to seek work in my chosen field’ a solid option?

    1. Buttonhole*

      Why don’t you find a voluntary role in your community? You can use that as a filler instead of the make-ends-meet role. That is what I have done. I lost my job in January and due to depression (which is finally being treated) I didn’t focus on applying for jobs. I have now got two voluntary roles on my CV, and both agreed to be a reference and one even recommended me on LinkedIN. Think a bit about your next career step, and try to find voluntary roles that would give you some new skills. Perhaps it won’t be easy in practice but at least try it out.

      1. Tiffany*

        I do volunteer regularly and I’m on several committees with a local nonprofit. So getting references isn’t really an issue for me…I’ve already got one of the best networks and reference lists I could have. It’s more of having to be able to pay my bills. I just graduated in college in May and my job very suddenly ended after 3 months…I haven’t had time to build up any sort of savings. I can make it through October bills without any additional income, but I’ve got to have something coming in if I want to be able to pay rent on November 1st, which means I’ve got to get a job within the next few weeks, regardless of if it works into my career path or not.

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t do it in the cover letter; that’s a distraction from the real focus. I’d put it on the resume after a month or two just for clarity’s sake.

    3. Lizzie's Patronus*

      I would be concerned that it could be a distraction on the res or in the letter. But then again I do Executive Assistant work and I find that anything that deviates from all things Administrative on the resume, can throw people.

      If your industry is slow to hire I might add it if a lot of time had gone by, down the road, but in general if it doesn’t add anything skill wise, I would leave it off. Just my .02. GL!

  80. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    I don’t think this is normal at all and would be really concerning for me. I’m not sure I could or would want to continue considering this job. Would this manager be your manager?

  81. Nonniemoose*

    This is just me venting: My supervisor’s supervisor (the head of our department) recently had his admin person for this project quit, so now he wants to stuff me with “some of the responsibilities.” (Which is a super-vague term that could mean anything and I’m worried it actually means, “do her job on top of yours.”) :( As a formality, he has to ask my supervisor for “permission” so I’ve been asked if I can fit “some of these admin jobs” it into my workload (again, what does “some” mean?).

    It’s not really that I mind more work, because I like to think of myself as a hard worker, but I’m in an entry level position already with ambitions of moving up (I’m applying else where since they won’t promote me) and I don’t want the little substantive work I do to be put on the backburner, which will make it harder for me to give examples of accomplishments in job interviews.

    My mentor told me to take this seriously and coached me on what to say, but I’m worried I’m going to go into this discussion with them being serious and they’re going to be like, “Pshaw! You’re overreacting! It’s not a big deal! Why are you being so weird?” Also, department head is avoiding me. Said he’d be available this morning… didn’t show up until he had a meeting with other people, said it would be quick and then we’d talk, and still hasn’t finished said meeting over an hour later. :| He knows I go on vacation next week.

    1. Nonniemoose*

      UPDATE: Yep. He said it wasn’t a big deal but then wouldn’t define the parameters for me. Had to talk to the person quitting to get the parameters. They’re not a big deal, I’m happy to do it. He’s still adamant that taking meeting minutes will expose me to all of these great partner organizations and be a real professional development opportunity… even though I wouldn’t interact with them outside of that meeting. I’m not buying it. I’ve decided he’s not sinister, just incredibly out of touch or lying to himself.

    2. Charityb*

      “(Which is a super-vague term that could mean anything and I’m worried it actually means, “do her job on top of yours.”) ”

      That’s what it means. There’s no other meaning. Now, there’s a slim chance that you might not have to do *all* of the other person’s job, but it’ll probably be a lot if they’re working so hard to have you do it instead of either leaving the position unfilled or hiring someone to do it.

  82. house mouse*

    I work in research at a giant, famous university. The nature of my workplace means that every weekend, on both days, someone has to go into work to check on something. Kind of like Desmond on Lost putting in those numbers, but different. It’s not an intellectual exercise but you physically have to go in. It takes about an hour and you bill for an hour.

    Turns out, I’ve been here for over three years and have never gotten paid for the times I’ve gone in on the weekends. (I make very little money and for a long time thought one hour wasn’t making a difference in my paycheck.) Eventually I figured it out and brought it to the attention of my boss.

    It’s been quite a while – I know I mentioned it verbally, but I’ve brought it up over email a few times, and that’s been over 3 months now. I just sent a polite follow up, and was told that’s it’s going to have to come out of the next grant that comes in. That’s not entirely legal, right? What on earth do I do?

    1. fposte*

      Not just oy, but oy yoy yoy. No, that’s not legal at all. (AFAIK, IANAL etc.)

      At my giant university, I could consult HR about the process; they would be unlikely to get back to anybody in my department because they would have no idea who anybody was, but it would take a while. Can you do that, and take your answer back to your boss?

      And is it possible this isn’t just you, and that there are other non-exempt people going into the lab (guessing it’s a lab) who are owed money as well?

      1. house mouse*

        I am the only one owed money. I’m the only one at this particular pay level/title as well.

        You’re right, it’s a lab.

        1. fposte*

          It’s going to be a paperwork and budget nightmare, so I can kind of see why she’s resisting, but still.

          But another worse thought: when you submit your hours, where do they go? Does Payroll/Accounts/whatever cut your check? Because around here this couldn’t happen without somebody messing with your time sheets, and that would be Very Bad.

          (And this has stopped, right? Either you’re not going in on the weekend or you’re getting paid for it?)

          1. house mouse*

            Somehow it’s been overlooked. I submitted the hours using my standard procedure. Turns out in my department there’s a ‘secret form’ that other employees use/knew about.

            Yes, I’m finally getting paid. Finally. For the first time ever. It comes out as a separate line item on my paycheck, so I can see it. Checked my upcoming paycheck today, in fact.

            1. house mouse*

              At this point, having the two most recent weekend hours show up on my paycheck really feels like “too little, too late.”

              I’m really disillusioned.

              And worried – is this what a career in research science is like? If so, I need to drastically rethink my life.

              1. fposte*

                Bureaucratic and inept about it? Yes, that’s academia. Openly hostile to people who want what they’re legally owed? Not a universal thing, in my experience.

                I’m not on the science/lab side of academia, so others may have more insight; however, the tales people are telling here of the big research cheeses having little practical clue about employment ring true to me, and a lot of places don’t have broader staffing processes in place to compensate (there’s a reason a lot of grad students have been unionizing). Your work experience depends very much on who you’re working for.

                I like it and it’s worked for my students, but I have relatives who’ve really struggled under poor lab leadership, and I don’t think it’s uncommon.

            2. fposte*

              I can get that if the weekend hours come out of a different budget line, they want a separate form submitted–it’s baroque but kind of understandable. What I don’t get is a process where they just ignore the weekend hours included on your regular timesheet rather than kicking it back to you or telling you.

              I would definitely raise this with HR–it sounds like it should be pretty trackable, since they’ve likely retained the time sheets for most of that period.

    2. Anonsie*

      Oh lord. Well, if you’re asking whether it’s legal to take it out of the next grant, they could bill it out of there if it was part of the budget that the sponsor originally approved ($x for x support staff salary or whatever). If you’re asking whether or not it’s legal to make you wait however many months that would be… Probably not.

      Is your boss a PI on faculty, a manager for research staff, lab personnel, something else? This needs to go to someone on the personnel management chain, I would wager, not faculty and prrrobably not lab management either unless they’re seated under the general management chain at your university (at mine they’re a separate branch, it’s weird but not terribly unusual). Also, fposte’s HR suggestion is good, go to them as well.

      I also highly, hiiiighly doubt you are the only one not getting paid for that time. And in fact you may come to find that this is not an accident and you will have to fight it because they expect you to quietly work off the clock because “that’s the way this biz works.” Protip, it does not work that way unless you let it work that way against you. But boy are there a lot of departments that will try to convince you that rocking that boat will ruin your career.

      Also look at the local laws where you are for what timeframe they are responsible for at this point. If the state/county/whatever departments that handle workplace issues where you are have any resources for people to contact someone for information, do that as well.

      1. blackcat*

        Yeah, go to HR and/or a department manager, not the lab PI. Physically show up. I am at a large university now, and while HR can be a bit of a maze, there are really, really excellent people in part because they get the standard tuition benefit that faculty get.

        HR will get that it is NOT OKAY for you to be working extra hours for which you are not paid. The PI might be used to grad students who work 50+ hours a week for what works out to be less than minimum wage (when you account for overtime, etc) and simply not see the big deal here. The idea of actually keeping track of hours is not something faculty nor grad students do in the US (it’s different in Canada, and I’m sure elsewhere too).

        My advisor is great, but when I had payroll problems he did not see why it was a problem that needed urgent attention. The department manager was like “WTF?!?! WE WILL FIX THIS NOW!!” and called someone in HR and said, “A grad student, blackcat, will be coming to your office this afternoon. Please help her.” And the problem got solved that afternoon.

        So get this out of the hands of the academics and into the hands of the pros. They will help you.

        1. house mouse*

          My boss was like, oh wow, I think if anyone finds out about this the department will get fined! So don’t tell anyone.

          For this and other some other really good reasons, I really need to move on. The thing is, I’m still kind of hopeful that it isn’t this bad all over the University. It’s a big employer and really just about my only option if I’m going to 1) stay in this specific geographic location and 2) stay in science.

          So I’d love to transfer elsewhere. Wondering if University HR will be helpful or will see this pay quandry as me being a ‘problem child’

          1. Not So NewReader*

            “I think if anyone finds out about this the department will get fined! So don’t tell anyone.”
            The only people who set fines are government people. A random university employee is not going to fine the university. It’s okay to talk to HR. This is called resolving the problem internally without involving the labor board.

      2. house mouse*

        My immediate boss is a postdoc, that just got named to faculty recently by getting her first grant.

        I’m definitely the only one not getting paid for weekends. Turns out there was a ‘secret form’ that the other two folks (long time university employees, thick as thieves) that work weekends knew about, and I didn’t. Eventually after I vented to them about never seeing a difference in my paycheck, they asked me about the form. (what form???)

        1. blackcat*

          Can you get the form now and fill it out? Whether or not you go to HR now and report the lack of pay depends to me on 1) how much $$ it is (1 month of rent or greater? DO IT) and 2) if you are willing to never work in that department again. Given what you’ve said above, it’s likely the PI will make sure you can’t work in the department anymore if you rat them out. And that’s terrible, but it’s the way it is.

          But yeah, get the form and fill it out so you at least get paid going forward.

          1. house mouse*

            It’s a significant amount of money to me, yes.

            But then, with this job, any amount of money is significant. I initially took a pay cut for this position but then they cut my hours down. (While expecting the same amount of work completed.)

            It’s an unpleasant situation to be in. :(

            However, I still have student loans. And I’m on my own – I don’t have familial support. And these past three years of low pay have sapped my savings. So I need to carefully move on and secure something new before burning bridges.

  83. AnonAnalyst*

    Is there a professional way to turn down new projects/more responsibility at work? I’m thinking probably not, although if there were I think it would be the best option in my current situation.

    As a bit of background, I’ve become increasingly unhappy in my current job. It started awhile ago as some frustration that there seemed to be no opportunities for growth or advancement in the organization, and has subsequently grown to a point, along with other issues that have come up in the meantime, where I now dislike my job and leave work most days feeling annoyed and totally frustrated. I’ve decided that most of these issues aren’t fixable, so it’s best for me to move on. I started actively job hunting a couple weeks ago. The type of work I do seems to be fairly in demand, especially in my geographic area, so I think I’ll be able to find something else relatively quickly (2-4 months is my educated guess).

    Suddenly, this week, there are several potential new projects at work that I’m being eyed to lead. Leading these projects would be a step up in responsibility and would present a growth opportunity for me; however, it would be best for the company and for the clients if I don’t lead these projects, because leaving so soon after the beginning has the potential to negatively affect the client relationship and the project timeline.

    So, is there any way I can request more of a behind the scenes role in these projects? I’m obviously not concerned about not being tapped for any other opportunities since I’m planning on leaving the organization at some point in the foreseeable future. However, I think my manager has gone to bat for me to try to get me more opportunity within the organization since he knows that I’ve been frustrated with the lack of growth potential in my role, but ultimately any client or timeline issues that would arise would blow back on him.

    1. AnotherFed*

      I would not turn down the opportunity at your current job. First, it could give away that you’re looking, especially if your manager has gone to bat for you to get you this opportunity because they know you want these opportunities. Second, if your manager has gone to bat for you and you turn it down (after asking for or at least discussions about how you want to grow), then that’s going to negatively affect your relationship. A good manager would mostly shrug it off, but it would still be hugely irritating, and a bad manager could well hold it against you more significantly. Third, organizations have to handle transitions. It might suck some, but they just have to deal with it – if you’d be completely irreplaceable, that’s seriously screwed up stuff, but rarely is it a showstopper unless you take all of the passwords and documentation with you when you leave instead of transitioning that. Finally, you don’t actually know when you’ll get a job offer – it’s a bit of a gamble to expect to be hired at a job you want in 2-4 months. You’re in a better position to judge the demand and the timeline for your industry than we are, but at least the 2 month end of your range sounds optimistic if you haven’t started looking yet.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Perfect answer. Some of the bigger regrets I have in life are opportunities I turned down. It’s a feather in your cap to have these projects, take them. Let the chips fall where they may.

        Think of it this way, they could hire another person. Six months later that person decides to run away to Bermuda and never return. The net result would be the same, they would have to figure out what to do with the projects in progress and the clients.

    2. Camellia*

      I know it’s late for a response but hopefully you will see this. The standard response from Alison and others here is that you should proceed at your current job as though you fully intend to stay there, instead of on what “may” happen in the future.

      And if you do get another job, well, people leave jobs all the time and it’s up to the company to just deal with it. There are posts on this site about how to deal with any guilt you may feel about leaving your coworkers “in the lurch”; I suggest you search those out and read through them.

  84. Brian*

    Hey guys, I work for a large nonprofit with a super conflict-avoidant CEO. No one ever gets “fired” here (or written up, or disciplined, or told what their goals are, but that’s a longer story). But, when you piss the CEO off personally, the department gets “restructured”: your position gets eliminated, and you get walked out of the building on a Friday morning with all your stuff packed up in boxes. Then they call the position something else and hire another person to do the exact same job with a different title. I have been here for about a year and a half, at the VP level, and three of my VP colleagues have been replaced under this arrangement. Everyone across the organizations understands this is based entirely on the CEOs personal whims.

    Is this a common thing? Does this strategy actually protect the org from firing liabilities when the person who was let go never once got any formal feedback or instruction or was notified that they weren’t meeting goals? One of my colleagues, who was beloved throughout the organization, had a recent review where every category was “outstanding” but when she told the CEO that the center’s numbers on the federal grant report weren’t true, and that duplicates were inflating the service records, her department was “reorganized” a week later and she was gone. It seems crazy shady to me, but i don’t know if it is an organizational liability from a legal perspective (although its clearly an issue for moral/retention/effectiveness/culture).

    1. MsM*

      Nope, this isn’t normal. And it doesn’t protect the organization if your funders decide to investigate irregularities. They don’t care what the position was called or who originally led it; they want to know if you did the work you said you were going to do, or at the very least are reporting accurately on why you couldn’t do it. Especially if the former employees have proof shady stuff is going on. Which, if they’re sensible, they’ve been collecting before their desks get taken away.

    2. asteramella*

      Bogus RIFs or reorgs create liability, they don’t reduce it. This is an EEOC lawsuit waiting to happen if any of those fired belong to a protected class and can show that they weren’t fired for genuine performance issues.

    3. Charby*

      This behavior definitely increases risks. Because they’re not documenting or communicating performance issues, it actually makes it easier to argue that the firings are discriminatory, not harder. Merely changing the name of the position doesn’t fool anyone if the job descriptions are substantially the same. I find that a lot of businesses actually overstate the risk of discrimination lawsuits though. They’re actually pretty hard to prove in court and not particularly common. Part of that is probably due to hyper-conservatism, but part of it really is that most people don’t want to file a lawsuit just because they lose their job as long as they feel like they were treated fairly. They’re more likely to sue if they feel that they been treated unfairly or capriciously, and they’ll probably feel that way more often if they are fired abruptly without any warning or feedback.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. I have seen a lot of this, too. My opinion is that it is very common and very wrong.

        The most disturbing part of this story is that numbers were falsified in order to obtain federal grant monies. I would not be surprised to find out someone could go to jail for this.

        Get out. Run. Now.

        If you do not believe me, then keep your eyes wide open. You will probably find more examples of corruption and people covering up for other people and a tangled web of lies. BTDT.

  85. Ethan*

    I got a promotion and a raise! Woo! The thing is, I don’t have new responsibilities. My responsibilities in my old role increased so much after company downsizing and I was managing more projects, so my promotion was made to reflect how much more I have been doing. How to put on a resume with dates? The promotion is new; the expanded duties are not at all new – I want my resume to reflect the fact that I’ve been managing these projects for a while (in some cases, years).

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Good question! The same thing happened to me, and I list the dates of when it was made official but now I wonder if I should list it differently.

    2. nerfmobile*

      “Promoted to Senior Teapot Marketer in reflection of successful performance at this level over the past 2 years.”

  86. Noni Noni*

    I’m at a loss as to how to handle an issue with my team of direct reports. We have four teams across four offices in different time zones. We have work that is assigned to us, automatically, every 15 minutes. Unfortunately, due to the system we use, if you aren’t in the schedule for the full hour, no work will be assigned to you at all during that hour. So…example:

    Team A, C and D in Memphis, Tallahassee and Portland have a schedule that has them start at 9am and end at 3:45pm (but different time zones). They immediately begin getting work assigned to them at 9am but get no new work assigned to them after 2:45pm.

    Team B in Chicago has a schedule that has them start at 12:15pm and end at 7pm. They do not get any work assigned to them until 1pm but get work assigned to them until 6:45pm.

    Team B is regularly complaining that it isn’t fair that teams A, B and C don’t get new work in their final 45 minutes and are “doing nothing.” Now, they are working, it just isn’t visible because the reports are not showing in the team ERP. Team B feels like, since A, C and D are still there, they should be getting reports until the very end.

    I can’t seem to find a way to explain to Team B that this is actually an equitable setup because each team has 45 minutes where no new work is being assigned. In addition, the other teams ARE working, just not on very visible items. Finally, if they need help (which, admittedly, could be the case) they simply need to ask their teammates for help. Every time we’ve discussed this and I’ve made these arguments, I get heavy sighs and complaints that it just isn’t fair.

    Frankly, I’m done with it. This is a limitation in our system, the workload is evenly spread out and while we are incredibly busy, we are all pulling our fair share. Any thoughts on how I might be able to better address this?

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      I haven’t even gotten halfway through your post and I’m excited because it sounds like a math problem. I’m seriously reaching for pen and paper to work on this – I may be a nerd.

      1. CollegeAdmin*

        Okay, I see where this is equitable, but I do have a question.

        Equitable:
        Teams A, C, and D have a schedule that has them on for 6 hours and 45 minutes. They are assigned new work for 5 hours and 45 minutes of that block – no new work is assigned in the last hour.

        Team B has a schedule that also has them on for 6 hours and 45 minutes. They too are assigned new work for 5 hours and 45 minutes of that block – no new work is assigned for the first 45 minutes and the last 15 minutes of that schedule (aka 1 hour).

        HOWEVER, my question is this:
        What does Team B do for the first 45 minutes of their shift and last 15 minutes of their shift, versus what do Teams A, C, and D do for the last hour of their shifts? What I’m imagining Team B is irked about is if Teams A, C, and D receive new work until 2:45 and that work is then done in 15 minutes, leaving them with nothing to do for the last 45 minutes of their shift (since no new work is assigned).

        Meanwhile, Team B gets new work at 6:45pm and finishes that work at 7pm, meaning they constantly have work. If new work comes into the system at 7pm, is that work waiting there at 12:15pm the next day, meaning that they are working more – but not longer – than Teams A, C, and D?

        1. Noni Noni*

          Good question! The first 45 minutes of Team B and last 45 minutes of Team A, C, and D are meant to do follow up work from either earlier in the day (A,C and D) or the previous day (B), do project work and catch up on emails, etc.

          As for new work, once you are off shift, no new work is assigned at all. Any work coming in at 7pm or later would be held in limbo until Teams A, C and D start the next day.

    2. asteramella*

      It sounds like you have explained the rationale as well as you can. Perhaps you can let your team know that they can bring you any concrete, specific evidence that the assignation system directly and adversely impacts their own roles (not just a nebulous feeling of unfairness) and beyond that the discussion is over.

      1. Noni Noni*

        I’ve definitely asked that. All they can point to is that they get a ton of reports in that 45 minute timeframe (they do, it is true) and there are people getting none. But when you look over the course of the full day, everyone gets about the same (with some variation for those that work faster and therefore get more, etc)

        1. nerfmobile*

          Well, it also seems that Team B works significantly later in the day than the other teams. They may be feeling like they get all the “end of day” stuff dumped on them, in addition to having their catch-up time be in the beginning of the day instead of at the end. I know I would hate to be working busily until the end of the day and then have to wait until the next morning to catch up on anything from the previous day. Perhaps it’s the combination of those two factors (late shift plus end of day crunch) that is causing complaints. Is there any reason you can’t adjust their shift to start 15 minutes earlier? (letting them have the same end of day wrap up.) Or 15 to 30 minutes later? (letting them have some wind-down time at the end of the day.)

          1. Noni Noni*

            Because of the nature of their work, their shifts cannot be changed. We have certain hours we have to be available during and they work the later hours. And there is no difference in the work that comes in at the beginning of the day vs the end of the day.

            As for following up, if their work was of a different nature I would see your point. I don’t want to get into too much detail, but it is actually to their benefit to follow up the next morning when the issue might actually be resolved as opposed to at the end of the shift when it may not yet be, and then have to follow up again the next day.

    3. cuppa*

      At this point, I would just say that you’ve investigated and found that they are doing work whether or not it looks like it and that they need to move on.

    4. Coax or trick or drive or drag the demons from you*

      Heh. Sorry, not laughing at you, just – this reminds me of part of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court where Hank is trying to explain basic economics to some townspeople – how cost of living can affect the value of one’s wages – and they Just Don’t Get It. I think it’s chapter 33. If you’re feeling frustrated, it may help to read it.

    5. Student*

      It’s not equitable. Talk to your teams more about how this actually affects them. Have you asked them for proposed solutions that would be more equitable?

      I bet it’s at least partially a problem of wind-down time not being equivalent. Does Team B get to leave on schedule, or do they have to stick around past 7 PM regularly because assignments take a nontrivial amount of time to resolve?

      Why don’t you just have all shifts start and stop at the same relative variation in the hour to accommodate the software limitations? Have you checked to see how hard it’d be to change the software to better meet your needs?

      1. Noni Noni*

        Team B leaves on schedule, every night. If their work isn’t completed, it goes to Team A to do in the morning. When I asked Team B for a solution, their solution was to have A, C, and D continue to be assigned reports until the end of the their shift. Not only is this not possible with our program, it would leave A, C and D with no time to follow up on issues or do project work. I’ve tried talking to them about how it affects them and they just say they feel busy and that no one else is working but 1. they aren’t any busier than they are the rest of the day (on an individual level) and 2. the other teams are working, just not on the reports.

        Everyone has the exact same amount of process vs. follow up/project time. No one stays late to finish work (not only would this not be permitted due to them being hourly workers, due to security systems in place it would not be possible).

        The software is old and not very customizable. We are working on procuring a new program that will hopefully give us more options but that is proving more difficult than we initially anticipated. We’ve been trying for over 3 years to find a way to manipulate this process and each time it causes more trouble and doesn’t solve the issue. At this point, it cannot be changed. And their hours cannot be changed due to regulatory processes that need to be completed at certain times and intervals at different locations.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Can you change the hours they work?

          See, each team has 45 minutes at the end of the day to wind down and wrap up. This great, because their train of thought is still intact and they can quickly complete loose ends. Team B, not so great. They don’t get the wind down period and they cannot complete their loose ends. Psychologically, this is very fatiguing to go home every night knowing darn well your day’s work is incomplete. Don’t skate by this point, it’s a big deal.

          The other teams come in start work immediately because the work is coming in. Then they have the 45 minute wind down/wrap up period.
          Why not have Team B start at 1pm and work until 7:45? Then they would have the same set up as the other teams.

          Barest minimum, change how you are explaining it. The set of words you are using is not registering with them. And, I agree with others who said to ask them how this impacts them.

  87. JessA*

    Hello. I’m searching for jobs in another area of the country. Normally on my resume, at the top, I have my name, address, email address and phone number. I am afraid that because I am not a local candidate, I might be overlooked for someone more local. Because I’m trying to relocate, would it be wrong to have my info listed like:

    Name
    Address
    Email and Phone number
    (Relocating to City Fall 2015)
    (Will be in City September 25 – 30)

    Any suggestions, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!

    1. Buttonhole*

      I wouldn’t mention address on your resume if this is your concern. There is no rule that says you should – only your email and phone will do.

      I would, however, mention this in the cover letter. I would in fact try to include it at the top: “Dear so, I would like to apply for job xxxx…..bla bla and I will be relocating to your city in September”. This way the reader catches your drift early. You can mention that you will be around at the end.

  88. Lunar*

    I have yet anothe question about interns! I am supervising interns for the first time and they are unpaid (which I have a lot of mixed feelings about, but it’s not up to me). Because they are students and unpaid, I try and be pretty flexible about their schedules (having been an unpaid intern a few years ago I would have appreciated this). I know that they have class and school commitments and the project that they are working on is not something time sensitive or that they have to be in at certain hours to complete, so I really don’t mind when they come in. I have also let them know that they can come in a little bit later in the mornings because my boss and everyone we share a suite with are always in after 9:30. I am in earlier, but culturally our day starts a bit later here and it gives me time to prepare since we have a revolving door of people who are in the office on different days of the week.

    I guess I am wondering if I am doing a disservice by being lax about scheduling? The intern scheduled for today arrived around noon without letting me know she would be later than usual and the other is constantly changing which days he is coming in. Again, this is no problem for me and it doesn’t impact the project, but should I be more strict just because future jobs might be?

    1. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … I don’t know that you have to be strict about it for the sake of training them about office norms.

      I do wonder, though, if you would benefit from having something of a set schedule. I sounds like you noticed that today’s intern just showed up late. You can let them set it, but expect them to stick to it once its set.

      But if the answer is honestly “no” maybe you can just make the point that while you’re office is super flexible they shouldn’t expect that kind of flexibility at all jobs.

    2. the_scientist*

      I think flexible scheduling is different from “show up whenever”. I was a student worker as well, and scheduling flexibility was incredibly helpful to me. When I managed student workers at my old job, I tried to be flexible and accommodating, but I also needed to know when they would be in so I could assign work. And because someone needed to be in the office to let them in- one time a student showed up without letting me know and everyone was offsite at a meeting, so they were stuck waiting and it was kind of a disaster. I would ask the interns to pick their days (or half-days, or whatever blocks of time you prefer) once their class schedules are set and then let them know that you generally expect them to be there on the day they’ve committed to, at the start time they’ve committed to. However, if they can’t make it due to exams/upcoming midterms/illness/appointments, they should email someone and let them know. I assume they have a minimum number of hours to meet? If so, they should also be making up missed hours.

      1. Lunar*

        They are working on a huge project that will take months to complete and that they have been trained in so I don’t have to worry about assigning work. They don’t have keys, so they can’t be the first ones in, but once the doors are opened for the day it is fine. I have let them pick days for consistency. The schedule has been a little off lately because of Labor Day this week and a change on our end so I think I will wait and see if it firms up going forward.

    3. Ad Astra*

      If it’s really not a problem, then I guess you don’t need to be stricter about it. But since part of your job is to help these interns learn about professional norms, it might be helpful to point out that most jobs aren’t able to provide that kind of flexibility, so he doesn’t get himself in hot water at a future gig.

    4. Weekday Warrior*

      I think it would be a disservice to establish unnecessarily tight scheduling but also think that given that our experience establishes our ideas of “norms”, it would be great if you had a few briefing/debriefings with them about “how things work in offices” along the lines of “here’s how things work here but in many offices they work differently. For example, XXX”. You could also have some good talks about how to ask about expectations and how to figure out unspoken rules. Maybe when they start, sometime along the way, and as part of an exit interview? Reinforcement would be good, considering how many of us were gormless about figuring this stuff out in our early working days. The first time I had a full day job I didn’t take any breaks the first few days because I didn’t know I was supposed/allowed to and the manager thought it was obvious what to do. I also didn’t really understand why a different manager spoke harshly to me when I mused that I might have to go home sick before the end of the day – in retail – on Dec 24!

      1. TCO*

        I did something similar when I supervised an (unpaid) intern, except with dress code. She dressed very, very casually most of the time, which was allowed in our office (and in line with what some other staff wore). I tried to find teachable moments during her tenure and at the exit interview to make clear that she would most likely have to dress up more in her next position (while making it clear that her attire wasn’t a problem for us). On rare occasions where we did need to dress more formally, I’d be really clear about that, too: “We’re meeting with donors tomorrow, and most staff will dress up for that a bit. I’d suggest wearing khaki or black pants along with a little dressier and/or collared shirt.” She’s smart and I know she got the message about not expecting all workplaces to have the same standards ours did.

  89. Z*

    I guess this is a work/etiquette question. I am getting married soon, and have invited my boss who is awesome. However, I also invited a former coworker of mine who my boss fired last year. Nothing terrible happened, it was more of a fit issue. The former coworker is coming to the wedding, and I’m not sure if/when to tell my boss or my former coworker. I definitely don’t want to blindside anyone, but I don’t want to make a huge deal out of it or make either of them (but more so my boss) feel like they will be uncomfortable at the wedding. Any thoughts on the best course of action?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Do either of them harbor resentment or anger toward the other? I would probably mention it casually like “oh, did I mention Joe is coming?” The less of a Thing you make it, hopefully the less of a Thing it will be.

    2. Buttonhole*

      I would “warn” the co-worker to avoid her/his being shocked with an encounter with former boss, and then place both on different ends of the venue (assuming you have tables with a seating plan?) to prevent potential awkwardness. I won’t warn your boss. And if they bump into each other, that is not the end of the world- assume both are mature enough to handle this.

      1. some1*

        Yup. Also maybe tell the coworker over text or email so they don’t have to process it live and give you an immediate response.

    3. Z*

      Thanks for the advice! I think I’m going to wait until my boss RSVPs, then give them both a heads up and seat them at completely opposite sides of the room. My boss definitely doesn’t harbor resentment, but there’s a possibility my former coworker might. So texting would definitely be a better way to let the former coworker know.

  90. just laura*

    In this week’s edition of “Should I lie in my resume,” I noticed lots of people suggesting volunteering. That got me thinking: what kind of volunteer work would you like to see on a resume if you were hiring? Be specific! :)

    1. Mimmy*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but if I were, I’d value: Active participation on a council or committee. Bonus points for being a subcommittee chair. (Okay, I’ll admit it….this is what’s on my resume!)

      1. Brian*

        Having worked with lots of volunteer committees, I would want to see actual evidence of investment or work. It’s easy to be on a committee or sub-committee. It’s a lot less easy to be the volunteer project lead for a homeless outreach event, or a lead silent auction volunteer that managed the auction floor and check out procedures during a gala. To me, committees where people sit around and bloviate without really doing anything are a dime a dozen – but that might be my personal frustrations showing :-)

        1. Mimmy*

          No that’s a fair point – my state council is, unfortunately, like that. When I was recruited, the woman said that a lot needed–and still needs–to be done. Yet, we just get ourselves mired in details and discussion (and sometimes conflict). I’ve been volunteering to help with some of the work to move things along, but it just seems like we’ve been moving like sludge. The council does work closely with state government agencies and its members are governor-appointed. So….yeah. Working with the government plus having a skeletal group…yeah, I really thought this one through. Not -.-

    2. Katie the Fed*

      It really depends on the field. But personally, I’d be interested in
      -taught job skills to homeless people/immigrants
      – Habitat for Humanity (especially if it was a leadership position)
      – Website design or writing for any organization

      What I won’t care about
      – Animals (I mean, I like them, but unless you were in a leadership or skill-related position, I won’t care that you walked puppies)

      What would actively deter me:
      – Spending a week “volunteering” at an orphanage in a 3rd world country. Just my issue – I have strong feelings about it
      – Volunteering for an organization that I have strong ideological objections to

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Just curious, but if they held a leadership position with valuable skills for your organization, would your ideological objections still come into play?

      2. Anony-Moose*

        This is great advice. Love the way you lay it out.

        There’s volunteering meaning you are actively giving back to your community, which is great, but which I tend to think of as more personally fulfilling. Walking dogs, serving food at a shelter, sewing/knitting for children, etc. You’re awesome but not *necessarily* skill building.

        Then there is pro-bono work where you’re using your skills to help in a more administrative way. Serving on a committee/sub-committee. Writing grant proposals. Helping with bookkeeping, clerical work. The list goes on. I think you can probably do BOTH kinds of volunteering at the same time but it’s the latter that sticks out to me as valuable job experience.

      3. J*

        “– Spending a week “volunteering” at an orphanage in a 3rd world country. Just my issue – I have strong feelings about it”

        Curious about your objection to this. Does it seem too much like they were just being a tourist or trying to make themselves look good?

        1. Katie the Fed*

          It’s exploitative and harmful to the children. There’s almost no benefit to the organization or the children (unless they get the volunteers to pay), when volunteers DO pay it sets up a weird supply/demand dynamic for orphans (you see this a lot in Cambodia – there’s a demand for “orphans” so they can cater to tourists who want to help out for a day), it encourages children to get used to white/western saviors who drop in and may not have their best interests in mind, etc. It’s all just really gross, to be honest. Voluntourism that exploits local populations (especially children) is really wrong.

          If you actually want to help children in a developing country, donate to an NGO.

    3. CollegeAdmin*

      Depends on the job. If I were hiring for my current position, I might want to see volunteering at a senior center or elementary school teaching people how to use computers, since part of my job is software training. However, if I was hiring for my last position (admin asst), I’d be interested in something like working at a soup kitchen, where it can often be busy and it’s a customer service-type role.

      I agree with Katie the Fed that general animal work would mean nothing to me (especially since I dislike animals), and work that I strongly disagreed with could be a detractor.*

      *Within reason. For example, if someone volunteered for a pro-life group and I was pro-choice but it had nothing to do with the position I was hiring for, I’d ignore it. But if they listed working with a group that I don’t know, tried to bomb a Planned Parenthood, I would count that as a strike.

    4. Felicia*

      Long term, and at least somewhat related to the skill set required to do the job. Once for a single day, i don’t care about. Once a week for 3 hours at a time, but you do it for a few months of a year, then that’s good. I hire for roles that are communications related, and there are a lot of communication volunteer positions out there, so i’d look for one of those.

  91. Persephone Mulberry*

    How honest is too honest in a job interview? I think I shot myself in the foot a couple of weeks ago during a phone screen – the interviewer was asking me to rate my experience (beginner, intermediate, advanced) in various software, and when she got to Outlook I unthinkingly replied “beginner” and followed it up with “I haven’t worked for a company that uses Outlook in at least 10 years.” And then promptly started kicking myself. I’ve used Outlook in the past and I’m more proficient than most of the people around me with the rest of Office – I’m sure I could have said “intermediate” and left it at that, but noooo. I managed to undersell myself and sound condescending at the same time.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If they use Outlook and you say you haven’t used it in 10 years, that does look bad, but it’s also the truth. At the same time, I find those kinds of questions useless, for two reasons:

      1. It’s user self-assessed, so someone could say “Beginner” and be more intermediate, and someone else could say “Expert” and be more beginner. If you, as an interviewer, really want to know how proficient users are in software, have them use the software in front of you, or ask them specific questions that would tap their knowledge about the software.

      2. Outlook isn’t that complicated a program. If you hire a fast learner (I know that phrase has become trite code for “I’m a super beginner no one should hire; please take a chance on me, please!”), Outlook can be mastered within an hour or two. Really, what do you have to do? Send emails? Do some mail merges? Back up contacts? Share calendars? Not that complicated.

  92. Applesauced*

    I’ve been at Company A for just over two years, and it’s fine. Not spectacular, not my dream job, but the people are nice, the pay is decent and I’m learning. I’m planning to move to a different state in the next year, so I am/was content to stay at Company A until then.
    BUT – I just got an email from Company B by way of a former coworker saying they’re hiring people with my experience level.

    If I were looking for a new job, Company B wouldn’t be on my list – I’m not interested in the work they do (large scale teapot development, and I’m looking to get in to… handle design (this a stretch of the metaphor, but basically they do big big big projects and I want to work on smaller specialized projects)), all the Glass Door reviews talk about terrible hours and nonexistent work-life balance, and on top of that they are HUGE (think Goliath National Bank).

    But since they reached out to me… I’m a little curious; I’ve never worked somewhere like B, but also I don’t see myself there. Is there really “no harm” in going for an interview? Would I be burning a bridge if I go while undecided about working there?

    1. CollegeAdmin*

      I think there’s no harm if you’re truly undecided. They’re undecided about you right now until after they interview you. But if you know that you’d never take the job, I would decline an interview and not waste your time or their time.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      The whole point of an interview is that both parties are undecided, so I think it’s okay to go if you’re undecided. You may find out information that turns you off, or makes you more interested. But if you really don’t want to work there, I wouldn’t waste the time unless you want interview practice.

  93. Questioning*

    I have a job interview on Monday and have two quick questions:

    1. If the interviewer offers me water or coffee, is it alright to accept? What’s protocol?

    2. I’ve heard that it’s unprofessional to say phrases like “that’s exciting” or “that’s great” when the hiring manager is talking about the position/company and is looking for a response from me. For example, I had an interview recently where the hiring manager mentioned that the company was about to open their first international office. I responded by saying “that’s exciting.” When I was talking to a friend of mine in HR after the interview, she said that hiring managers see these types of phrases as condescending and presumptious since candidates would not know enough about a company to form an opinion. According to her, it’s even worse to use these expressions at a more formal company or when interviewing for management and above positions. I think my friend has lost her mind, but assuming she’s right, what should I say instead of “that’s wonderful,” “that’s fantastic,” “how exciting,” etc.?

    1. asteramella*

      1) Yes, as long as you take care not to spill it or fidget with it (peeling label off water bottle, etc).

      2) i don’t think this is true.

      1. Buttonhole*

        About 2: difficult one. I think commenting “that is interesting/wonderful” re the new office is fine and shows enthusiasm. It would be even better if you can add something insightful that shows you know the company and industry or market trends “good move, I believe demand for teacups will increase in Wonderland”. But then it has to be true and a really good comment. Otherwise, when the job is described, there is nothing wrong with saying “that sounds interesting”, although one could be really pedantic and argue that of course it does, that is why you applied, duh! Follow it up with a question, or an insightful remark to keep the conversation going, otherwise it could look a bit silly saying only “that’s exciting, huuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh” (cue goofy expression). I guess it depends on your body language and how you say it.

    2. Kara Ayako*

      1. Yes, absolutely all right! We offer this and rarely do candidates accept, but it’s always okay if they do.

      2. I have no idea what your friend was thinking. These phrases are so innocuous.

    3. CrazyCatLady*

      1. I don’t think it matters. If it will make you feel more comfortable, go for it. If it will make you feel nervous, don’t.

      2. I’ve never heard this. I am sure a good comment or something insightful would be good as well, but I think your friend is reading into it too much. At least I hope, because that’s the same type of thing I’d say.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      Personally I wouldn’t drink cafine in an interview as it would likely make me over animated, but I’d always take a glass of water if offered.

      Those phrases sound ok to me , but use them sparingly and in the right place, I’m sure I told my boss that a big project coming up sounded fantastic because it was a really exciting change and it was the right word to use. I woudln’t say that’s amazing when given a glass of water it just doesn’t fit. you need to show some enthusiasm for the job so I don’t get where your friend is coming from day the phrases are not good to use.

    5. Rebecca*

      1) I always accept it, it gives me something to hold so I don’t have that awkward “What do I normally do with my hands?!” thing. Also, I can take a sip if I need to process something in my head before saying it out loud.

      2) I have never heard that. But now I’ll be paranoid.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      If they refuse to hire you because you said “that’s exciting”, you did not want to work there anyway because you would be constantly worried about what other words were no-nos and in constant fear of being fired for using those words.

      I hate to say it, but your friend gives lousy advice. Keep reading AAM, and you will be fine. You will know what to do and how to handle things. Your friend is just going to give you more and more things to needlessly worry about.

  94. Ella*

    I finally have a job offer!! But I don’t know if I should take it. Help me, Obi-Wan AAM-commenters!

    Pros:
    It’s a professional step up in a small town that seems to have a lovely atmosphere/coworkers.
    I would have a more diverse job description than I currently have and would be less bored.
    It’s part time, which would give me ample time to pursue outside creative pursuits, of which I have many.

    Cons:
    It’s part time, so even though I would be earning more per hour, I would be taking home less money (not much less, but I’m skating pretty close to the edge as it is, and would really love some financial breathing room).
    It’s in a town 3 hours away. I have a reliable car, but still, I’d be commuting almost as much as I’d be working. I won’t have money to move to the town for probably at least a month, and that’s if I get outside help.
    Less benefits (because part time).

    There’s other factors pulling me both ways but those are the biggest. Also I’ve been job searching for 2 years so turning down a job just seems like such a terrible decision. I applied for a full time position at this organization but they called/interviewed me about a part time job. I could stay on as a sub at my current job and fill some of the income gap, bit I would still be losing my benefits.

    It feels like the pros are all intangible and the cons are all concrete and I don’t know what to do. I have until Monday to decide.

    1. asteramella*

      I have a hard time envisioning a job where you have a 6-hour round-trip commute working out, no matter how lovely the coworkers or interesting the work.

      1. MsM*

        Me too. Especially if it’s a stretch to make it work financially already. That’s a lot of gas money. Unless you know you want to move to the town and this is the best option there, I’d decline, or at least try to negotiate for a salary that actually would make it a feasible option.

        1. ella*

          Yeah. I calculated it out and it’d be like $200 a month, and that’s if I stay in the small town (probably camping) for one or two nights a week on days when I clopen (close on one night and then open the next morning). And over a mountain pass, too, which in a month or so is going to get hairy.

      2. Stephanie*

        Yes, this. I do 90-100 minutes R/T, all highway, and it’s exhausting. And I can see the wear and tear on my car already. Can you just stay there during the week?

    2. CJ*

      A reliable car can become unreliable fast with an approximately 250mi trip each day. That’s potentially 5,000 miles per month and over 60,000 a year. That would be a $400 a month in gas (at 30mi/gal and $2.25/gal) and an oil change every month.

      Granted, even at part time… you would still have a lot of extra transportation expenses and challenges.

      This isn’t worth it.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Your financial concerns are what tip me into the “don’t do it” camp. If you were confident you could afford the cut in pay (AND benefits!), I’d say go ahead and take this step toward a more fulfilling job and enjoy the work/life balance of being part time. At the end of the day, though, you need a roof over your head and maintenance for your car and an emergency fund to protect you from disaster. I really think you should turn this job down and wait for an opportunity you can afford to take.

      And, like asteramella, I have some real concerns about that commute.

      1. Tris Prior*

        I feel like the long commute negates any work/life balance that might come with a part time schedule, though. That is a LOT of time in the car. I once had a job that was an hour away in decent traffic, but this sometimes morphed into as long as 3 hours (one way) if there was bad weather. That can be soul-killing, and I’d arrive home and just want to go to bed exhausted from that long drive.

        1. Ad Astra*

          Yeah, it really could. That answer upthread about camping (!!!) when she “clopens” is a big ol’ NOPE for me, though perhaps Ella and I have different ideas of what The Good Life looks like. And that’s ok, I guess.

      2. OfficePrincess*

        VERY high six figures. Like, high enough to have a second home close to work and outsource all of the cooking/cleaning/etc for both places.

      3. Ad Astra*

        I think it would have to be closer to 7 figures for me, like how professional athletes maintain households in one city and then play for teams in totally different cities.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I would not take the job if it was my situation. I think your concerns are murkying the waters here and pushing you toward something that is going to be very hard to do as time goes on.

      Consider the wear and tear on your car. Three hours away and you make that drive daily? So let’s say it’s 150 miles one way. That is 300 miles a day. My husband drove between 500-700 miles a week. He car was constantly in for service- oil changes etc. Every time I turned around it was time for new tires. Will you actually get to move in a month or will all your money go into maintaining your car?

      Consider the wear and tear on you. Six hours of drive time plus your work day. Let’s say you work six hours a day. You will be gone from home 12 hours per day. And that is in good weather. Psychologically, are you prepared for isolating this is? Even a strong person would end up feeling very alone in this world after doing this drive for a while.

  95. TheLazyB (UK)*

    I had feedback this week that my emails are quite long.

    It was an observation not a criticism, but it totally amazed me – because no one has ever told me before.

    I’ll work on shortening them, which should be fairly easy, as I do think things through by writing, so I can take some sections out. But, wow. Useful feedback I can act on, yay!

    Anyone else get unexpected-but-true feedback like that?

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Same here. I actually try to send my emails with bullet points now because it helps me focus on what the recipient(s) need(s) to know and I think makes it easier to read, too.

  96. CJ*

    A reliable car can become unreliable fast with an approximately 250mi trip each day. That’s potentially 5,000 miles per month and over 60,000 a year. That would be a $400 a month in gas (at 30mi/gal and $2.25/gal) and an oil change every month.

    Granted, even at part time… you would still have a lot of extra transportation expenses and challenges.

    This isn’t worth it.

  97. TheLazyB (UK)*

    So, tell me truly. Have you ever read a comment here and known that it was from someone at your org?

    Getting a bit paranoid that people at my work could be reading :-/

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think the only people at work who know me well enough to recognize details I put in here would also be cool with it. Besides, it’s a big world, there must be someone somewhere in the world with exactly the same job situation and life events going on right now, right? Plausible deniability is all you need. :D

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Big world: Yes. I sometimes see people say “oh, I think I know where you work!” in response to comments describing things that are really not uncommon at all. (I actually wish people would stop saying things like that because it’s likely to rattle the person they’re talking to!)

    3. Blue_eyes*

      Not from my office, but I did manage to figure out that another regular commenter is a close friend from college. Commenter mentioned a few details such as her job title, and combined with what I know of her IRL, plus her screen name, I figured it out. (FWIW she had already recognized me from my avatar). And if you’re reading this right now, you know who you are – hi!

    4. Anonsie*

      Yes. And not only yes, more than once!

      I already have a personal policy of never making anything publicly available (even just by talking about it in public) or putting anything in writing that I wouldn’t want being broadcast to the entire world, so it’s more or less a non-issue for me. No joke, even in my personal journal that is made of paper and sits on my desk at home where no one should feasibly be looking through it or my texts to friends. You could blow up every word I’ve ever written onto huge posters and plaster the whole country with them, and the only thing I would care about would be my embarrassing middle school short stories.

    5. InterviewFreeZone*

      There was a post once from a manager who wanted to give an employee a raise but powers that be suggested swag instead. I laughed. So hard. Because I’m pretty sure that was my old organization.

  98. J*

    Minor dilemma:

    I started a new job a couple weeks ago at a really great company. One of my former coworkers wants to meet up for a drink next week and talk about it, since he wants to jump ship and come to my new company. I don’t feel like I’m in a position to say how it’s going yet, since I just started. Also, we’re not actually hiring more people in my role right now but I imagine we will later. He’s good at what he does and his personality would fit well here, so I would consider referring him if a position opened up. I don’t know him super well so I don’t want to sound like I’m not willing to help him at all but I also don’t know what to say at this point. Any ideas?

    1. NicoleK*

      Just ask him to contact you in six months after you’ve settled in. And in the meantime, you’ll send job posting his way when there are vacancies (if you actually want to)

    2. MoinMoin*

      Pretty much what you’ve said here seems fine, “They aren’t currently hiring anymore Kingslayers, Jaime, but I know you’re great at slaying kings and I think your personality would fit well here, and I imagine Cersei is getting restless and we’ll be hiring again soon so I’ll be happy to keep you updated and provide a reference when a position opens. By then hopefully I’ll be more acclimated to the position and castle and be able to give you a better idea of how things are run in Westros.”

  99. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I just wanted to thank everyone for bearing with the latest round of ad issues this past week or so. My ad network is working hard to solve the problem, but it’s a tricky fix; auto-play ads are supposed to be turned off entirely on this site, but sketchy advertisers have found ways to circumvent that and send them through anyway.

    If you continue to see ads that auto-play audio, if you’re able to email me the URL they link to, it”s easier for them to block those specific ads. (I know that’s a pain to do, and I really appreciate anyone who’s willing to do it.)

    Also, y’all have my blessing to use an ad blocker if you keep getting problematic ads here!

    Alternately, in Chrome you can set ads to never auto-play. To do that, to to Settings/Advanced/Content settings/Plugins/Detect and run important plugins. (It’s not the default, and you’ll need to be in version 43 or higher). After doing that, automatically running ads shouldn’t run and should instead have a “Start arrow” to click if you want to run them.

    1. Rebecca*

      Hi Alison, I use Firefox 40.0.3 on my Windows desktop, and have yet to see an autoplay ad. I hope this is helpful to you.

  100. Rebecca*

    Life in Kindergarten continues. It’s so bizarre here I don’t even care any more, so at least going to work isn’t as stressful. I’m looking at it this way – I’m learning all the things one should not do as manager, so if I ever get to be a team leader someday, I’ll know what not to do. I just work my 8 hours, walk out the door, and forget about it until the next day. The work day is just a necessary interruption of my life so I can get money to live, sort of like going to the dentist – I dread it, but at least I know the pain will be over in X hours, so I can deal with it.

    At least the whole ganging up on the new person thing has died down. Two coworkers have aligned, and started tattling (yes, that is the correct term) on the new person, criticizing her work, and both were swatted down in one way or another for things they failed to do. In other words, if you live in a glass house, don’t throw stones. Plus, both of the new aligned team have and will find themselves out on a limb, because they’ve alienated themselves from the rest of us. We want to support and teach new people, not belittle them. No one is happy about this. PHB could step in and put a stop to it, but I don’t see this happening because one of these people is on her favorites list.

    Oh the day I can hand in my two week’s notice can’t come soon enough :(

    1. Lizzie's Patronus*

      I assume you’ve been posting about this but this is the first post I’ve seen… Sounds very crazy and childish… So tough… All I can say is I’ve been in a toxic workplace and yes, one day you will be free and so much better for it! I hope that day comes soon for you!

  101. AnonAcademic*

    I am feeling a little bit guilty about the sacrifices I’ve asked my spouse to make for my career. We moved 3000 miles from home so I could take my dream job, which is working out great for me career-wise so far. He has been job searching here and just accepted an offer. It pays a little more than he was making at his last company back home, but it’s more of a lateral move than a step up. He was a finalist for a job that was a step up but wasn’t offered it and I know he’s disappointed about that (so am I, I think he would have been awesome at it but they wanted more specialized industry experience than he has). He is mid-career whereas I am early career (age gap) and so I feel like his time window to climb the ladder in his field (trying to get from middle management closer to C-level) is more constrained than mine. His job is still a good job, it uses his skills, will allow us to live comfortably, and he really likes the crew he’ll be working with. It’s just tough because we’re both ambitious and I feel like my ambitions have taken precedent this time around. But we can’t afford for him to hold out for another opportunity a level up right now.

    1. Anonsie*

      Sometimes, your ambitions should take precedent. It has to go back in forth– don’t feel guilty that it went for you this time, especially since it doesn’t sound like he’s really suffered any consequences for it. The job he got is good and he likes it! That’s just about a best case scenario.

    2. Ad Astra*

      A couple of years ago, my then-fiance quit his job to join me in a new state where I had just taken a new job. He was never able to find a job in his field and we struggled mightily for two years, until I was laid off (I was a journalist so layoffs are par for the course). We gave up on that state and moved back to his home town, where he found a great job in his chosen field within 24 hours.

      I don’t like living here. All my friends live in a different part of the state, which also happens to be a more exciting city with more amenities and more fun stuff to do and a better airport situation. It took me a few months to find a job here, in part because there were very few openings that matched my skill set (of course, there were tons of great options in Other City). The job I have now is fine but nothing special. But we stay here because he’s doing so well and he’s in a great program where he can learn a lot from some really talented people. This is a job that has him working 7 days a week for about 3 months of the year, so I leave work right at 5 to get home and let the dog out and start dinner while he’s at the office. But that’s what I signed on for. I knew this is how our life would be if he succeeded in this field.

      He knows that about 5 years from now, I’ll be tugging on his shirt to start applying for jobs in Other City. Because I’d rather be doing chores and taking care of the dog and making dinner in a cooler place.

      For a lot of couples, it’s a back-and-forth thing. Timing has so much to do with careers, and usually someone’s career will take precedent at a given moment. Make sure you’re communicating with your spouse about needs/wants/expectations, but there’s no reason to feel guilty.

      1. BRR*

        Sounds semi similar to my situation. I agree there’s back and forth. You have to decide on rules. My husband would love to work in academia. As he searches our rules are it has to be a tenure track position, the university has to not be a fiscal mess, and I get veto on location (we both want big city but I’m finding now as jobs pop up that we’re differing a little on this definition).

    3. blackcat*

      Unfortunately, this is the way it works in academia if the academic partner is to be successful: the other spouse must be willing to follow.

      No one ever seems to bat an eye when it’s women who’s the trailing spouse to their academic husbands, but a man being the trailing spouse tends to bring up way more emotions (both for the couple and for the people around them). I’ve seen multiple marriages collapse under this weight.

      But it’s important to remember that it’s okay for your career to take the priority. It sounds like his job is relatively portable. Yours may not be–if you’re aiming for the tenure track, you need to to go where the jobs are. Because of that, it simply makes sense that he’s the trailing spouse. He’s making a choice to follow you, and that choice comes with sacrifices. That’s okay.

  102. Anon for this*

    I recently changed jobs and have several direct reports, one of whom my supervisor has warned me is not as strong as the others on the team and is not necessarily pulling her weight. Of course I need to see for myself, but this person has apparently been with the organization for over a year and is well liked for her personality, not sure how others perceive her work yet.

    This person also has a family member with severe health issues and has been out several days since I started (less than a month ago).

    I plan to observe her myself and see whether or not she should stay or I should take steps to fire her, but a) I’d feel really bad firing someone who’s in such a bad family situation, and b) legally, I feel like it’s going to be a huge pain since if her work hasn’t been up to par and yet she’s been allowed to stay more than a year, it’s going to look like a firing for a protected reason.

    Any advice?

    1. Cati*

      a) Completely understand this reaction, but unless that family situation is the short-term source of the performance problem, it can’t really be part of your consideration for a long-term under-performing employee. Someone else might have a different perspective on this, though.

      b) I don’t think you need to have legal concerns if you approach this up front as a performance problem and take steps to give the employee a chance to address the issues and go from there. Obviously if you fire them after a week that could cause problems, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re looking to do! Alison has great posts on addressing performance problems: https://www.askamanager.org/2009/07/how-to-deal-with-employee-performance.html https://www.askamanager.org/2013/02/how-to-fire-someone-for-mediocre-work-when-theyre-trying-hard.html

    2. fposte*

      Well, there’s the intermediate possibility, which is taking steps to improve her work–it doesn’t have to be just “keep” or “prepare to fire.” And taking those steps may well help you to quantify productivity in a way that can allow you to state what her productivity should be even with missed days of work. Remember, her performance during her work days isn’t protected–FMLA doesn’t say you have to tolerate substandard work, just that you have to give people leave.

      1. Meg Murry*

        My question is, does she have FMLA paperwork in place, and is the issue that she isn’t keeping up with the workflow, or is the issue that if she has been out “several” days, is it just that she can’t do the full job when she’s missing so many days? For instance, is she getting 30 hours of work output done the weeks she’s there for 30 hours but the problem is you need 40 hours of work output? Or is it that even when she’s physically there for 30 or 40 hours her output is only 20-30 hours worth?

        Is she spending a lot of the time when she is at work dealing with things for the sick family member instead of working? For instance, spending hours at a time making phone calls for doctors appointments instead of working, because she can only make those calls during work hours? Do you need to encourage her to either take time off to deal with these things, or to make up the time she is spending on non-work by working later or taking projects home (if she is salaried?)

        When you say “substandard” do you mean produces not as much work or produces work that isn’t as good? Can you quantify it in some way? Has the group been working without a boss for a while and she needs more direction and/or training?

        Last, if she has only been there a year, how long has everyone else been there and is she at their same level? If she is a “junior teapot maker” and her coworkers are “senior teapot makers” in theory he coworkers would be paid more and expected to produce better or more complicated or faster results – that’s why you have the distinctions.

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Well, there’s a lot of territory between “keep” or “fire.”

      How about starting with a discussion of her performance and your expectations and going from there?

  103. Anon for now*

    I have a question I’ve been struggling with, so maybe y’all can help. If you found information on the internet that made you seriously question a new hire’s integrity w0uld you inform your employer? What if this new hire and the owner of the company are best friends?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      What’s the information and how relevant is it to their job? Like are they a fraudster with access to client money?

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      It would totally depend on what the information was and whether I thought I had any particular biases against the information I found.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I have been struggling with this same question, except the new hire is my replacement at my old job. I know it would look vindictive and petty to put this info out to the wrong people, so I simply haven’t done it.

      1. Anon for now*

        It was very serious (think felony level crime) and while he’s not handling client money, he is in a position of authority. I can’t really give more information without going into more detail than I would like. If he and the owner were not best friends I would take this to my employer in a heartbeat, but they are, so I think the owner must already know about it – and that bothers me even more.

      2. Anon for now*

        I actually meant this reply for Apollo Warbucks.

        AdAgencyChick – I can see why you would worry about that. I’m pretty sure this information will come out some other way eventually. So, I’m inclined to just wait and see how things play out.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. I would assume that the owner is very much aware of it and is attempting to get his friend out of a bad spot. Some people use their companies to give back to society or to help those around them. I had one employer that routinely hired people with jail records. Yes, he got burned from time to time but he kept hiring these folks. His choice. And although, some stuff was difficult, for the most part I admired the man.

  104. Cati*

    I have a coworker whose role is supposed to be my “other half” – I am dependent on her to manage a lot of work for us to be productive as a team. When we first started working together there were some obvious gaps in her knowledge, but I assumed she would catch up as she was still relatively new. She is also very soft-spoken and lacks confidence, so she was not able to drive our very smart/very stubborn team with authority. After a year she still has significant gaps, and the team pretty much steamrolls her. I have had to take on a lot of her role and while it has exhausted me, I have been told by the team and by my superiors that I’m doing a good job at it. I just wish I didn’t have to. I am not my coworker’s boss/supervisor in any way, and she is also senior to me age and experience-wise, so I haven’t been sure how I could address these problems aside from just doing it myself. Her boss pulled me aside and asked me for feedback on how she was doing (I believe other people had been expressing concerns) so I told him frankly what I was observing.
    Well, he told her everything I said later that week and told her I had said it all. She then came and talked to me and said she would like me to give her feedback directly, which I did. It was very awkward. She also seemed to want me to tell her specific things to do, which felt like I was literally telling her how to do her job (which I super don’t want to do). Now our relationship is really, really awkward. I don’t really know where to go from here. She’s being moved off of our team right now but I don’t know if this relationship is salvageable. And I’m still not really clear on what I should have done here – she was my peer, and when it was applicable I’d make suggestions for process improvements or try to teach her things, but it didn’t feel like it was my place to be giving her performance feedback? I also don’t know how to tell someone that a big part of their problem is that they don’t project confidence or authority so the team doesn’t feel like they need to listen/pay attention.
    Anyone else been in a situation like this? How did you handle it? How WOULD you have handled this?

    1. NicoleK*

      Her boss did not handle it well. Sounds like you handled it as well as you could. She asked for feedback; you provided it. She’s not on your team anymore. It sounds like you don’t report to the same boss. You’re not her boss. You weren’t that close to her to begin with. Maybe just be polite and professional when you see her.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure if it would be considered performance feedback to say something like, “This is a group that will steam roll you if you let them.” That is more like a heads up, than a performance feedback. You are stating a fact. To me, it is along the lines of saying the bathroom is down the hall and on the right. This is also a statement of fact.

      It would be okay for you to say more especially if her boss was a hands-off type boss. If the boss does not check in, then peers should try to fill in the gaps as best as possible. Just my opinion, though, otherwise, like you say here, the peer ends up doing most of the work.

      She is probably totally baffled by the whole thing now. It may appear to her that you withheld important information from her. And then went to the boss with a long list of things that she has done wrong. In order to avoid that long list again, I would, minimally go to my own boss, much sooner, and ask her how to handle the situation. It makes sense that she wants you to tell her what to do. Until you explain what the actual problem is she will not know. Her way of compensating is to say, “Okay, tell me what to do.” This is really all she has as a tool to figure out what is wrong. Unfortunately this resolves nothing, because you are spoon-feeding her tasks and that has nothing to do with the real problem.

      She sounds like she does not want to lead people. You can’t change that. But you can show her this is what the job entails doing. If she fails to do those things that is up to her to figure out what is next. You can just keep saying, “this is what our jobs call for us to do.”

      As far as what I would have said specifically about the job, it would have gone something like this: “We are here to give instruction, solve problems, and relay company information to our people. If we do not do these things, then we have failed our people, because we have not given them the best chance of having success with their jobs.
      There will be times when you have to put your foot down. You will need to see that they are giving you excuses and you will need to be able to handle that. There will be times where you will see people taking shortcuts in their work. You will need to be able to explain why they shouldn’t do that shortcut.”

      I think you get the idea, here. You can insert examples as you go along. Most people love stories, it’s a great way to teach/explain. And there is bonding in stories as the listener gets to know a little about you= how you think and how you approach things.

      And yes, things will remain awkward for a while. She has no idea what you wanted from her and she has no way to find out. I suspect that at this point, she is so lost it will be a long time after she leaves this job before she realizes what went wrong.

      1. Cati*

        Thank you very much for the detailed response — this is what I tried to do when we had our awkward conversation so hopefully that helped somewhat. Will definitely keep this in mind for the future!

  105. Intrepid Intern*

    I got a new internship! Rent will be paid! 

    … and my new manager has terrible time management and communication skills, to the point that it affects my work. I was supposed to stuff envelopes with things she printed; it took her 4 hours to hit print, so I could barely complete my part in time. She also apparently didn’t email IT to set up an account for me for 2 weeks after I started, which got me sent home early a few days because there was then no more work for me to do.

    The other people on our team seem much more organized, but I don’t report to them. Any tips on working around her, CYA, and staying motivated? I’m already fairly discouraged because SO MUCH of my work now looks incompetent because I had to wait hours to start it, then rush to finish it in a state of faux emergency. This is also the first day I’ve been able to take a lunch break/eat at all before 2:30 because of her disorganization.

    2. NicoleK*

      It is difficult to report to someone with terrible time management and communication skills. Most likely, your boss will also be terrible at following through. You’ll need to adapt-fast. Or look for a new position.

  106. AngieB*

    I have been a phlebotomist since 2006, I started drawing blood for the only hospital in the area, I worked for them until 2011 and left on good terms. I now work for a large network of doctors offices. while we draw the blood and collect the specimens here we send them all to that hospital to be processed.
    We contract just the supplies and processing and abide by their testing requirements. I love my current job, it is mon-fri 7-3 no holidays no weekends but no over time, I would love extra hours and there is a per diem position open at the hospital!
    I know my way around the hospital, I know all of the test requirements I would need maybe 30 minutes of training just to catch me up on the daily schedule in order to proficiently do the job.
    I have applied now online twice and within 24 hours I receive a notification saying that they “have reviewed my application and are currently interviewing candidates who’s experience closer matches their needs”
    I know for a fact that the hiring manager isn’t even getting the application, in less than 24 hours it isn’t even making it past human resources! I’ve called human resources and all they’ll say is that they have it documented that I left in 2011, with notice on good terms for personal reasons and they have no more information on why im not considered for the positions.
    Any ideas?

    1. Honeybee*

      Do you still have contact with anyone who works in the department the position is posted in? Ideally the hiring manager themself, but really anyone who might work with them or have a vague idea of what’s going? They might be able to shed some light – like maybe they’ve already gotten deluged with applications and asked for the system to auto-reject any new ones, and HR just added a message that’s really misleading. Or some other explanation that makes sense.

      1. AngieB*

        The manager has only been there for a few years, I did just get a response from the one person I know that still works there- I actually trained this person. she said that there is hostility toward the people who work at the offices I work for because we make a lot more than they do. I really doubt that would be something that HR would knock back though, they didn’t even ask current or expected salary.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Is there someone you worked for in 2011 who you could ask about the position? Let them know that people who should be qualified are getting screened out? I’m guessing there’s some required word or other data point that the computer isn’t matching with what you’re submitting, but it’s impossible to say what that might be. Did you stick very closely to the wording in the job listing when you filled out the application?

      1. AngieB*

        The application was very generic, they use the same one hospital wide. its basically work history and the are you legal/ a felon questions. there isn’t even a spot to upload a resume!

  107. Honeybee*

    While I am fully adjusted to my new time zone physically, I’m still caught off guard pretty often…like when I come to AAM to check the open thread at 10:45 am (PST) and wonder how it already has over 700 comments.

    In any case, today is the end of week three in the new job and so far I do really love it. Great coworkers, interesting projects. But probably the best thing is that they are actually training me. Before I got a job I had read/seen plenty of articles and thought pieces about the new economy, and how employers were just expecting their new employees to come in, jump in and know everything. I was sufficiently terrified. But at this position there is plenty of training and several mentors officially assigned to me, plus informal mentors (aka every coworker who has been here longer than me, which is everyone, because everyone is willing to give me a few minutes to answer a newbie question). And for each of my projects, I have had or will have the opportunity work as an apprentice on one with an experienced mentor before I work on one myself; my manager has selected projects that are smaller and self-contained for me to learn on, and I’m expected to make mistakes and forget stuff and stumble through things (and constantly reminded of this).

    I’m thrilled!

      1. Stephanie*

        Also yeah, I’m (sort of) in the same time zone as you and by the time I wake up and get to the open thread…it’s like 600 comments deep.

  108. Anonsie*

    Ok I sent in a letter about this recently but this is a tangential question: if you’re applying for an internal opening in a different department that you occasionally work with, how well do you need to know the folks over there to ask some questions of anyone in confidence? Openings here are sort of blind posted so you know the general area but not what team and only the very basic job duties.

    TOTALLY DIFFERENT QUESTION: I managed to seriously hurt my foot this morning while running to catch a bus. It feels like it did when I broke a toe as a kid, only… My actual foot :/ Sore normally and sharp horrible pain if I press down. My job requires A LOT of walking and right now even shuffling to the bathroom he laborious. I have two meetings today later and I’m dreading them, past that I have to walk nearly a mile through this massive campus just to get home (I just made the walk in, it was awful). What do I doooo

    1. Nonniemoose*

      I can’t speak to the first question but I can to the second: Schedule an appointment with your doctor right away and see if you can take sick leave this afternoon. I remember when I broke my foot, I couldn’t put any weight on it. :( I hopped everywhere I had to go until I could get crutches from the doctor. Sorry to hear about your foot, that sucks.

        1. Cati*

          Is there an urgent care you could go to? More expensive than regular doctor but cheaper than ER, and they can make sure you’re not doing permanent damage by walking around on it.
          Otherwise rest/ice/compression is usually the suggested treatment. Any chance you can get your hands on some crutches? Good will/salvation army is usually overflowing with crutches.

          1. Anonsie*

            Christ alive I don’t have the money for that, they are crazy expensive (or is that just around here?) and every time I’ve tried it or taken someone before they never really help. They just tell you to take Advil and would maaaaybe X-ray but probably not even. I actually just remembered a friend broke her foot last year & our local urgent care told her it was a sprain and sent her home.

            The pressing issue is I’m at work, right now, and needs to get around but can’t.

        2. Nonniemoose*

          Can you go to a podiatrist? I broke my foot on a Friday evening so I had to wait all weekend but I was able to get a Monday appointment with a podiatrist (that I’d never met before). If you explain that you think your foot is broken, they might be more willing to take you.

          1. Anonsie*

            Hm maybe. I really doubt it since specialists around here always have 2+ month waits, but I can call around to find out.

            1. Dang*

              I was actually able to get to a podiatrist a lot faster than my pcp. Even if it feels like it’s getting better in the next few days, still go- I injured my foot in April and am now dealing with an obnoxious soft tissue injury that I kept reinjuring from over compensating in my walk.. yay for cortisone injections.

              Feel better.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Regarding different question: as much as possible, move it around gently, but not to the point of pain. Walk slowly and don’t put too much weight on it.

      It may be something relatively minor like a pinched nerve or strained tendon, in which case a quick bathroom break to rub the sore spot for a bit would be helpful. It may be a sprain, in which case the pain will get worse and I would recommend mentioning to your boss that you’re hurt and need to deal with it.

      If you have access to an anti-inflammatory like acetaminophen (I know it as Tylenol) that would help too.

      I have literally unending problems with my feet. I sympathize.

      1. blackcat*

        NSAIDS (anti-inflammatories) are the right call *if* it’s a soft tissue thing. If it’s a bone issue (and it sounds like it might be), these medications will really hamper healing if they’re taken right after the injury.

        Do you have a pair of pretty rigid shoes? When I was suffering from a stress fracture, I practically lived in my hiking boots, which do not allow the middle part of my foot to move. This was to avoid paying $$ for scans (the internet told me I’d need an MRI, not an x-ray, to identify a metatarsal stress fracture, and that would cost me a lot of money–thank you shitty insurance!).

    3. Nanc*

      Wow–that must be a big blouse if two of you can fit in it! (Sorry!) Do you have a jacket or scarf you can throw on if you’re worried she might think it’s weird? I’m assuming your supervisor is a woman because of the word blouse . . .

      1. Career Counselorette*

        She said that I should just stay away from her today so that no one comments on it. I laughed out loud at your comment about us both fitting in it. She would NOT be happy if that were the case.

  110. Nonniemoose*

    If worse comes to absolute worse of all worse possible scenarios, can I be fired for not taking on work that isn’t in my job description?

    3. Kara Ayako*

      Yes. A job description isn’t a contract from which neither party can stray. It’s just there to give you a high level idea of what sorts of tasks you may be asked to do. You can always be asked to take on more or different work. Jobs evolve.

    4. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Absolutely. Unless you have an employment contract (which very few people do), the job description might be nothing more than a guess the employer is making at the time they hire you about what they will be asking you to do.

    5. Nonniemoose*

      Thanks for the advice, everyone! My boss’ boss is being a huge dinghead about this. :( He even went so far as to state that taking meeting minutes was not an administrative job task. :| I’ll see what I can do. I need a new job so badly.

  111. D*

    I work on a small focused team handling ensuring that thousands of dollars are correctly applied to accounts. My team is already one person short die to a medical issue. Another person has started coming to work high, they get locked out of the system and are completely confused with everyday situations and issues. This person has even started going to the wrong desk and asked about people who are no longer there. They have a day off midweek and its always the following days that they are extremely befuddled. Management is aware to a point and said they can not say anything due to previous known issues.
    There is no medical issue the person is high its obvious. If they are getting help (as they did a few years ago) they should not be at work yet they continue to come in week after week. Its a detriment to the team and our company. My main concern is if the person does not know whether or not they drove a car how can they be expect to ensure the accuracy of our cases.
    I would appreciate any ideas you guys may have it seems like we are between a rock and a hard place. Any more we are treating her as a liability instead of an equal teammate.

    1. Cati*

      Are you the person’s supervisor/boss or a peer? If you’re not their supervisor, and you’ve already expressed your concerns to those who would be in a place to address it and were turned down, it doesn’t sound like there’s much you can do from here. You could try addressing it one more time, making it clear how their behavior has impacted your team’s work and output, but that’s really it as far as I can tell.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. You don’t have to discuss the cause of the behavior. You just have to discuss how the behavior is impacting the work itself.

        It’s really a moot point that this person is high. If a sober person did these things they would be written up/fired. Same deal for a person who is high.

  112. grumpy career changer*

    Does anyone have experience working the night shift? A contact has suggested I apply for a position which would involve 4pm-11pm work — but it is theoretically supporting the work of someone whose schedule is 10am-6pm. I’m a little hesitant about working with/for someone when we wouldn’t be able to get much facetime. I also worry that dealing with coworkers (as well as this manager) almost completely through email and memos would hinder my efforts to develop relationships with colleagues. If you have related experience, I’d love to hear about it.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Not personally. My husband used to do that shift, and people always thought it was weird that he would stay until until 3am or 4am and then sleep until noon. “Do you crawl into bead the minute you get home from work”?

      In your case, I think I would consider how much face-to-face contact you need to stay motivated and energized. Personally, I would have a hard time with feeling isolated in the situation you are describing.

      1. grumpy career changer*

        The face-to-face contact issue is one that I’m trying to think about now. In my current role, I am working with students 5+ hours a day, and while that takes a lot of energy, it also reminds me why I chose this profession. On the other hand, in other roles I have really appreciated time when I could focus in an uninterrupted way without being interrupted every five minutes by colleagues.

        What was it like when your husband was working those hours and you were not?

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          Well, we had just gotten married, and honestly it provided sort of a transition for us. We’d both lived alone for a long time, and it might have been quite a shock to have someone else at home every single evening! I enjoyed having that time as mine. I would have been happier, though, if it were 2 or 3 nights a week and not all five. Because he slept 4am to noon or so, and I work 9 to 5, there were sometimes days on when where we didn’t see each other awake at all. We were glad when it ended and we could actually have dinner together more than once in a while. It’s also nice that we don’t have a major transition sleep-schedule wise when we’re on vacation. That used to be a significant problem.

    2. De Minimis*

      I worked a similar shift once and also graveyard shift. I can’t really speak to the professional aspect of it [these jobs were data entry/light industrial jobs] but I really enjoyed working my 4 PM to 12:30 AM shift. You could sleep more or less normally and had plenty of time to get things done during the day.

      I was single at the time, though, so it didn’t bother me that I was working when most people were having dinner, spending time with family, etc.

      1. grumpy career changer*

        That is a good point! I’m single now, and I suppose if I took this job I could expect it to stay that way for the foreseeable future….

    3. Nonniemoose*

      My friend hated the irregularity of the hours, and because she was originally hired for the day shift and then suddenly moved to the night shift when someone got laid off. I guess it would depend on your personality.

      1. grumpy career changer*

        I suppose I am lucky, that I am getting the chance to think about my preferences in advance. It wouldn’t be a nice surprise to be in your friend’s situation.

    4. em2mb*

      My first job was second shift – approximately 3 p.m. to 12 a.m. It was brutal. I would rather have worked an actual overnight. The work itself aside (we were chronically understaffed and expected to do more, more, more), it was just so hard to have a life when you’re working through the dinner hour. At least if I’d worked an overnight shift – we had a handful of employees who started work at 11 p.m. – I could have seen my family occasionally after work/school. Unless your spouse or friends also work second shift, it’s hard to have a social life, and you need one if you’re going to remain positive working late into the evening.

      1. grumpy career changer*

        My initial worries were about making it work at work, but you and other commenters (commentors?) are making me think more carefully about the social life aspect.

        On the plus side, this would be a Sunday–Thursday schedule, so Friday and Saturday nights would still be available.

        Thanks for the food for thought.

        1. Lindsay J*

          It’s brutal on your social life.

          I worked 7pm-3:30am for a long time and lost regular contact with pretty much all my friends.

          They all worked either regular 9-5s or retail hours (like 9-9). So when they were home and available to talk on the phone or grab dinner or drinks etc, I was at work. Even brunch or lunch was out of the question because that was during my sleeping time.

          Things are probably better now in this regard with DVRs, etc, but I missed keeping up with popular TV shows because they aired when I was at work. I went from being a hardcore to a very casual baseball fan because, again, all the games happened when I was at work.

          Also, running errands etc on my days off was difficult because I pretty much had to keep on my regular sleep schedule so I wouldn’t wake up until late afternoon and would have to like rush to go to the bank or take the last hair or doctor’s appointment slot of the day.

          Some schedules are worse than others, though. I worked midnight-8am recently and I kind of liked it. I slept 9-5 when most people are at work, woke up and had time to spend with friends, etc, then went to work while they slept.

          Right now I work 6p-6a, which is brutal but I only work 4 days a week and have weekends off which is nice.

    5. Newsie*

      I have relevant experience. All your hesitations are real. If you have great managers and open communication, it can work. If you don’t, all the petty office politics turn it into Jets v. Sharks 2.0. I had to go out of my way to drink off-schedule with the opposite shift in order to bond. And a lot of times people miss relevant e-mails or memos, and things slip through the cracks, and what would take 5 minutes to clarify turns into a 24 hr drama.

      I also second em2mb’s concerns about social life.

      1. grumpy career changer*

        Thanks for the affirmation. I know and respect one of the managers involved, but she is relatively new at the organization, so who knows if the wider culture is as good at communication as she is. What’s more, this is a full-time position that will be doing what amounts to two different part-time jobs, in different departments within the organization. My contact is happy to be getting 20 hours per week of help, but I don’t yet know how the other department (which previously had a full-time person doing the work that the new hire will be doing in 20 hours) feels about the new plan.

        There are a lot of unknowns!

      2. Stephanie*

        When you’re a Jet, you’re a Jet all the way, from your last pilfered pen, to your last comped time day…

    6. Vanishing Girl*

      I worked second shift from 2-11 pm for a couple years. It destroyed my sleep schedule and social life. I was either at work, preparing for work, decompressing from work, or asleep. I would sleep 10 hours and still be exhausted, and I rarely went out on the weekends as I was always tired. I also couldn’t really be involved in committees or service at work since all of those meetings were in the morning when I was asleep. I hated it, but I know people who love it. Do you normally stay up until 2 or 3 am? It might work for you.

      1. grumpy career changer*

        Thanks for the cautionary tale. I used to be a real night owl, so I think on a physiological level it would work out fine. But the problem with serving on committees and collaborating with people in general could be something of a problem.

        Thanks to everyone who posted their thoughts — I appreciate it!

      2. Stephanie*

        This is a good point. All the employee resource groups at my company all meet during the day. It can also be tough for outside networking orgs, as many of those have meetings/events in the evenings.

    7. Ad Astra*

      I used to work that shift and it had a lot of advantages, especially when it comes to running errands during the day and going to appointments without dipping into your PTO.

      The very tiny amount of overlap in the two shifts is what would concern me. It’s really going to depend on the nature of the job, and a bit on the communication skills involved. Some people are better at written communication than others. I would definitely suggest carving out a specific time each day to meet face-to-face and go over whatever you need to, since face time is so scarce.

    8. Stephanie*

      Me! I do it now (I switch between swing and night.) I don’t like it and am actively looking. What does help is that we run a 24-hour operation, so I am not alone and all the people I work with are pretty much on the same shift or at least overlap.

      Swing is ok. On the plus side, you can still have a relatively normal sleep schedule (i.e. sleeping when it’s dark out) and get all your errands/appointments done during the day without needing to take leave. It will destroy your social life, however (unless you’re somewhere that has a shift work or 24-hour culture…so Vegas? NYC?) Overnights are a different beast. To keep your sanity, just make sure you’re exercising regularly, eating healthily as possible, etc. Especially with swing, I’d make sure you’re not waking up *too* early. I naturally a morning person and would still try to get up at 6:30 or something to go run. Bad idea. If your body wants you sleep until 10, let it.

      Er, I’d worry about not getting much face time with your supervisor. With the lag, I could see a lot of miscommunication.

    9. Nobody*

      I’ve always worked jobs with rotating shifts, and most of the time, it’s been 12-hour shifts, but there was a period of time when I had 8-hour shifts, and my absolute favorite week of it was when I worked 3-11 pm. I’m a night owl, so it worked really well with my natural sleep patterns. I’d stay up until 1 or 2 am after work and sleep until 8-10 am. It’s also awesome for getting things done. I could make a dentist appointment or get a haircut without having to use PTO. I moved during my week on this schedule, and it was so convenient to be able to go to the bank and my closing appointment and get utilities turned on, all in the middle of the day without having to use PTO.

      I’m always surprised when I hear people say they don’t like this schedule, because I’d love to work those hours all the time. I am in a different situation than most people, though, because I’m single and live alone.

    10. Honeybee*

      My parents both worked the night shift during significant periods of my childhood. My mom loved the night shift – she was a nurse and she loved that she didn’t have to interact with the doctors or hospital administrators at night. She got to care for her patients and concentrate on that. (She also worked in a mother/baby wing, so she often offered to take crying babies for new mothers who were trying to get some sleep – which meant she got to rock babies to sleep. For my mom, that was heaven.) My dad, being him, never really talked much about it.

      I do know that both of them had issues sleeping, particularly my mother on her off days. Because she had three kids, she would try to sleep normal hours on her days off so she could spend time with us, and it was really hard on her physically and psychologically.

      My husband also worked the mid shift (3 pm – 11 pm) and that was his least favorite shift of all time – and he’s worked days, nights, mid, 12 hours, etc. The plus is that you can still go to bed at a semi-reasonable time and wake up in the morning and complete regular errands during regular business hours. The con is that (according to him) you won’t want to – if you work 3-11 often you’ll be up until 4 in the morning and sleep until like 12 pm. It’s a really awkward shift to get used to for some people.

  113. AUFAN*

    I finished up a contract position in June and have been looking for a job ever since. I have a BS in Marketing and over 15 years of professional experience with 13 of those years in marketing, corporate event planning, and trade show management. The other 2.5 years I worked as an Executive Assistant to a C-Level exec. As much as I love marketing, event planning, and trade shows – it’s the fun stuff and the fun stuff is the very first thing to get cut if the economy takes the slightest downturn. I feel like the economy is still not as stable as it needs to be and with the upcoming election, I fear it could take a dive (regardless of who is elected). So I’ve recently decided to focus my job search on C-Level Executive Assistant positions based on the theory that a CEO, CFO, etc… will always need an assistant and therefore an EA position is more secure.

    I’m more than qualified for an EA position but I worry hiring managers will wonder why I don’t want to work in marketing anymore and if I would jump ship as soon as a great marketing job came along. Unless someone offers me my dream job making 5xs more and a written contract saying I’ll never be laid off – I wouldn’t jump the EA ship. I’ve made the decision to work as an EA or similar the rest of my career. Should I address this in my cover letter and on my website? If so, how? Thanks so much for any advice!

    1. Cati*

      I have done a lot of role-switching in my career and have found the best way to frame it is to either A) talk about how [role you’re no longer doing] helps you be a better [role you’re looking to do instead], or B) acknowledge you’ve had many different roles and say that experience has led you to realize you’re most passionate about [role you’re looking to do].

    2. Althea*

      I always use cover letters to express things that aren’t apparent from resume alone, and field switching is one of the most obvious that come up. When I do have to review resumes, the first thing I wonder when encountering a strange resume is “why is this person with 15 years marketing experience looking for an EA job?” I’d go ahead and put it in. I usually put it in the first paragraph, which I use for “this is the job I want and the reason I want it.” I know people have said not to focus on why YOU want a job, but when it speaks this directly to your motivation, it will answer more questions than it raises.

  114. Sparkly Librarian*

    I got approved for my first work conference. :) Registered, booked my flights and hotel, and BAM! Entire stipend spent. That’s a lot of money. On the other hand, I get paid for the full day where I don’t have to go into work because I’m traveling for part of the day, I get a room to myself, and I get to learn a bunch about several interesting subjects that will advance my career, while visiting a popular city? ~$30 plus meals out of pocket is worth it to me.

    1. AW*

      Sounds fun! My only advice at this point is to make sure you don’t burn yourself out between conference stuff and tourist stuff. It can be easy to go overboard.

  115. Amber Rose*

    I’m opting out of the social media part of my job today. I’ve been on Twitter and LinkedIn for an hour and I’m literally sick to my stomach at the volume of negativity surrounding the events of 14 years ago.

    It is not ok to say some of this stuff. Why do people think it’s ok to say this stuff?! And in professional mode I can’t go off on them like I so painfully want to. I, at least, know better.

    1. AW*

      People really need to stop acting as if any type of social media outlet is “anything goes”. I’m not surprised people are being jerks on Twitter, but on LinkedIn? A site specifically about maintaining professional networks?

      I don’t blame you for opting out today.

  116. Stan*

    I did it…I quit my job! The last 6 months have been a constant string of four alarm fires due to lack of leadership and planning. Perks, like the ability to flex outside of core hours and lunch periods, have been removed. Additionally, management is not replacing anyone who leaves. We’ve lost almost a dozen staff in the last six weeks and the workload just keeps getting bigger and bigger. I have a tiny twinge knowing that my workload is going to get dumped on my coworkers — they are dedicated professionals who I enjoy working with on a personal and professional level — but I’m no longer able to sacrifice my health for a job.

    A couple of weeks ago, a company that I’ve been moonlighting for contacted me and offered me a full time position. I’ve wanted to be full time there for awhile, but it never worked out. Putting in my two weeks at (soon to be) old job was one of the best feelings in the world. I feel so much lighter and excited for the future.

  117. W.*

    Saw a job ad that I thought I’d be great for – but they’ve put in the blurb that they politely ask that only ppl with relevant experience apply – I have adjacent relevant experience but not direct experience in that particular part of the industry – although I have the skills. (I feel they must have changed the wording since I last looked.)
    Worth applying for or are they just going to be instantly annoyed with me?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I’d apply if your experience is somewhat related. I recently posted a job for a social worker, and got an application from someone whose only work experience was washing dogs. She did try to make a good case for why they could be a good social worker (sans education and training?) but it really was a waste of everyone’s time for her to apply. It’s very possible they are trying to avoid that kind of thing, but would be willing to consider you if your experience is tied in.

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t worry about whether they’d be annoyed or not; it’s not that annoying to have people on the edge of the parameters apply, and it’s not like they’re going to hunt you down. If you think your experience is close enough that you could do the job, go ahead and apply.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I agree. I feel bad that candidates have wasted their time when there is absolutely no way I could ever consider them. If I absolutely must have a specific background (usually due to a funder requirement), I will usually state “please do not take the time to apply if you do not have (x concrete thing) We cannot consider you”

  118. Jessen*

    Follow-up to my question of last week: how do you get over feeling self-conscious about your body in work environments? Most professional clothing feels skin-tight to me and like I’m dressing to show off my body (I have a definite chest and rear). It’s very distracting to me because I was always taught to hide my curves if I wanted to be taken seriously. I’m always second-guessing any attention I get because of my body.

    1. AngieB*

      ive recently lost 190 pounds, no one can stop talking about my body at work. I am very self conscious about it. when I weighted nearly 400 pounds no one said a word, now I can walk down the hall without people saying something!

    2. Althea*

      Ugh, I want to know this, too. I have a decent hourglass figure, but on the heavier side so chest and rear are extremely prominent. I’ve utterly given up on button-down shirts. I have problems with pants and tops both. If they fit/ snug my waist at all, my but and chest become *large* focal features. If I don’t, I look like I’m 40 pounds heavier than I am. It’s just hard to avoid “showing off” my body features. I wouldn’t change anything, personally, but it’s hard to strike a balance that feels professional.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yyyuuupppp. I’ve resigned myself to generally looking 40 pounds heavier and 20 years older than my actual size and age, in work clothes. It’s that or look like someone playing the tarty secretary in an adult film.

        1. Jessen*

          See I tend to have the opposite problem. In looser clothes I look like I ought to still be in high school (I’m 27). But more fitted clothing to me looks like I’m all t&a.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      “I was always taught to hide my curves if I wanted to be taken seriously”

      This makes me sad! There is nothing wrong with having a curvy body or dressing in clothes that fit those curves! To me, dressing to show off looks like wearing things that are revealing or very tight – miniskirts, backless or low-cut tops, painted on pants, etc. That can indeed read unprofessional in an office, but I don’t think that’s what you mean.

      I am a pretty curve pear shape and if I don’t define my waistline I look 30 lbs. heavier. So I wear tops that are either very fitted (I have some button up shirts with stretch in them which I love!), or are blousey but then I pair them with a thick belt for waist definition. I wear 99% skirts, typically A-line or full, which highlights my small waist rather than my ample butt. Said butt is why I avoid pants (in addition to fit issues). I keep my hemlines a bit longer also, and necklines high, so that while my figure is defined I am covered up enough that it balances.

      Here are some blogs I like that might have useful outfit ideas. They are all curvy women ranging from small (US size 4/6) to plus size (US size 20ish).

      http://gabifresh.com/
      http://girlwithcurves.com/
      http://www.athickgirlscloset.com/
      http://garnerstyle.blogspot.com/
      http://missvictoryviolet.com/2015/08/05/10-items-32-outfits-pinup-office-attire/

      1. Honeybee*

        You have just defined why I like women’s fit t-shirts instead of regular fit ones. I never realized it, but yes, I do look heavier if I don’t define my waist because I have a pear shape. I also tend to wear bigger pants/jeans – I don’t like the super-skinny variety, but slightly skinny or straight leg is okay.

        Also, yes, when you have a butt you have to go with longer hemlines – because everything rises up. I don’t buy anything that’s not at least knee length on the model, because knee length on the model means it’s going to be above the knee on me, especially if it’s a stretch material.

    4. Anie*

      I’m sorry, whaaaat?

      I feel like the only other option people in this thread are currently leaving is NOT having a body in the first place.

      Don’t have your boobs exposed. Cover your ass. Wear something that doesn’t look like you picked it off the floor. Boom. Done.

      In all seriousness though–I have huge boobs and I hate to wear pants. Because of current styles, generally I end up wearing a skirt that cinches in under my boobs. This also happens to REALLY emphasize them. But so what? Yes, I’ve gotten a rude comment or two (see my thread above), but that’s THEIR lack of professionalism. I can still look professional without wearing a bag. I can still have boobs and be professional.

      Just wear what makes you feel good and know that you look darn good too!

      1. Lady Bug*

        Yes! Having breasts and a butt, large or small, is not unprofessional. Dressing so that there is a possibility of a nip slip or your coworkers knowing your shaving preferences is.

    5. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Maybe this makes you feel more self-conscious, but it was a perspective i appreciated:
      I read somewhere lately that women think that the first time a man sees them naked he’s paying the most attention to her weight/shape. The article said that’s not true, because those are things he already knows from seeing her in clothes (I will keep this PG-13 for AAM and not detail what he is noticing). I mean, I know that some of my clothes look better on me than others, but the reality is that different clothes don’t make the shape/size of your body look vastly different to others.

      Personally, I hate – HATE – uncomfortable clothes. I see people all around me who wear looser clothes and look professional and also people who wear more form-fitting clothes and look professional. Wear what you are comfortable with. I would say that you should buy clothes that are intended to fit the way that you want to wear them – don’t buy clothes in the wrong size just so they will fit tighter or looser – find a different cut/style. For example, there are a lot of loose tops out there right now – if you are normally a medium, but want the shirt to fit smaller, don’t buy an extra small- buy a different shirt.

  119. jennie*

    Today is my last day at my job!

    I am starting a wonderful new job on Monday. I have been here 10 years and have finished cleaning out my desk and files. Just waiting for my boss to come and take my security badge. So weird!

    I’m really excited about the new job, but it is strange to think I’ll never be in this office again.

  120. Hockey puck, rattlesnake, monkey, monkey, underpants!*

    I’m just having a really rubbish month. I’ve gone anon for this, lest anyone should figure out who it is ranting away…

    When I was offered my new job, I asked about relocation expenses. Such a HR policy was sent. It mentions grade 6 staff (higher than me) and those permanent (I’m contract). However, there is a separate bit underneath that called ‘4.1 – special cases for assistance’ – now this, this makes it sound like it could be me: fixed term contract of 3 years and under can apply for a smaller amount of money.

    I duly apply, only to be told that actually, that is only for grade 6 and above staff too.

    According to my workplace, the relocation policy is to ‘support our strategic goal to attract, recruit and retain the best available talent from around the world’ – clearly this doesn’t not include admins.

    I’m now out of pocket for moving alone over £1000 (or about 1540 of your US dollars). I’m beyond pissed. And poor.

    1. Hockey puck, rattlesnake, monkey, monkey, underpants!*

      Sorry for the double negative in there – obviously couldn’t decide between doesn’t and does not (include admins)

    2. Althea*

      How clear is the language? Can you write back and ask them to make an exception for you, considering the language is not clear? Because if the language says “grade 6 staff who are permanent receive X,” that’s one thing; “grade 6 and permanent staff receive X” is another. First one is for only those meeting both criteria, and special applications may mean that grade 6 contract staff can apply. Second one is for grade 6 staff and all permanent staff, so the special application could more clearly be for all grades of contract staff, too.

      1. Hockey puck, rattlesnake, monkey, monkey, underpants!*

        The language under the 4.1 section is as follows: Staff employed and funded on fixed term contract of 3 years duration or under [that would be me] for specific projects or pieces of work [my job is for 24 months in an office], will not eligible to apply for the full relocation package but can apply to HR for a contribution of up to (small but not insignificant sum) to assist with their relocation costs.

  121. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I manage two extraordinary admin staff. They show up and leave on time for the day and for breaks, they work hard, their quality of work is great, they’re very independent, they’re just generally and completely wonderful at their jobs. Even better, they seem happy in them. So what’s the problem? I have no idea how to manage people who don’t need me! They’re in different locations than I am so I try to make a point out of checking in with them, and I’ve set up short (1/2 hour) check-ins biweekly just so I get a chance to talk to them. I’m not complaining, believe me, but does anyone have any tips for this situation?

    1. Dang*

      I don’t think there’s any need to feel like you need to manage them x number of hours/times/whatever. I’d just continue doing what you’re doing- check in every so often, have a standing meeting, and make it easy to approach you with questions or issues. I think if you suddenly started doing something significantly different, they’d wonder what was wrong.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I would start focusing on development. What are their goals for career next steps? Are there more challening things they could learn to do if they had training in x computer program or went to y conference? Could they manage an intern (there are office systems management students at community colleges)? If there something they are good at that they wish they were great at?

      1. TCO*

        Agreed! Use your check-in meetings to ask about their career goals and how you can help them move forward. Ask what would make their job easier. Ask what they’re enjoying and what they don’t enjoy as much. It’s not common to find a boss who’s really, truly interested in helping you advance your career. Giving them your time and attention to that area is a gift, and a good reward for their hard work.

    3. Graciosa*

      Let me add that getting to know them will help you know how you can reward their great performance. I’m always in favor of seeing this reflected in permanent salary increases, but there may be smaller opportunities to recognize them throughout the year. After a key project is completed successfully, one may prefer tickets to a sporting event and the other would enjoy a gift certificate to a spa (and possibly a few hours off to enjoy it).

      I’m a big fan of recognizing people in the way they want to be recognized (which is not necessarily how I want to be recognized). Showing that you thought about their individual preferences can be hugely powerful.

      But don’t ever underestimate the power of just saying “Thank you for doing such an outstanding job.”

  122. NicoleK*

    I have good news to share. So I was contacted for an interview. Job is a social work position with a local county. I will get a list of questions prior to the interview. I’m allowed to make notes and whatnot. The interviewers will not be asking the questions, I’m suppose to answer the questions. I’ve not sure if I’ve ever had an interview in this format before. I’m a reserved introvert who has a hard time selling myself. I’m definitely not a chatter and will probably do better in structured interview formats. How can I prepare? What are they looking for? Will it hurt my chances if my responses are too direct? TIA

    1. fposte*

      Hmm, I’m not familiar with that interview style either, and I can’t say it delights me.

      However: can you think of it in social work terms? This is how you demonstrate who you are to a client who isn’t ready to trust you yet and doesn’t want to talk. You know what they might want to know about you (your pre-received questions), so you need to hit those points. But you’re introducing yourself. You’re storytelling yourself, basically.

      I think direct is okay, but terse is inadvisable. “How did you get interested in serving vulnerable CEOs?” Bad answer: “I took a class and thought it was good.” Good answer: “My first internship was with vulnerable CIOs, and I loved the environment but found the technical side not a great fit; I then had a chance to work with the “Lean Out” initiative for female CEOS and knew working with that population was where I wanted to be. It combines my passion for the corporate atmosphere with my desire to help people who make tons of money feel better about themselves, and I’ve never found anything equal to the thrill of watching somebody learn how to plan a RIF that ensures they take no salary cut.”

      I think it’s quite likely that the point of sending you the questions early is that they want to hear answers that are richer from you having had more time to think about them.

  123. Rye-Ann*

    So within the past hour, I found myself in more or less the same situation as described in this post:

    https://www.askamanager.org/2009/05/can-i-reapply-after-being-rejected.html

    I sent off a quick e-mail reiterating my interest in the position. I think I was pretty polite and non-pushy. My nervous brain is now worrying that I should have just re-applied rather than e-mailing the HR person I had contact with before, and I’m trying to tamp down on it. I’m still getting the hang of “mentally moving on.” Still, I am so glad Alison wrote that post!

  124. Nina*

    I have been job searching for three months, without much luck. I’ve seen a professional resume writer, tailor my cover letters, but have only had three interviews. I’ve exhausted all my contacts and I’m getting disheartened. Any advice my fellow AAM followers?

      2. Nina*

        College administration (specifically advising). I do have a master’s in counseling but I haven’t heard back at all from any of those.

        1. FatCatAdministrator*

          I work in college administration and have supervised advisors before. Do you have prior experience advising? I ask because the field is very competitive and it is hard to get your foot in the door just because you have a certain degree, no matter how relevant it may seem. Generally, I am looking for someone who has done the work before with a similar student population and I prefer that the person is an active member of NACADA. Happy to offer any advice I can.

          1. Nina*

            Hi @FatCatAdministrator! I meant I have a master’s in counseling, applied to a few jobs in counseling, but haven’t heard back from them either. I know advising is a completely different arena, more focused on the academic needs of students (with some emphasis on other needs as well.) In my last few positions, they were not advising jobs per se, but I actively sought out ways to work with the advisors and learn from them. I also found ways to incorporate advising into my roles.

            I reached out to many advisors at my old company and no one would tell me how they got into those roles. The advisor I worked most closely with in my old department told me she became an advisor 20 years ago but things were different now. I am not familiar with NACADA, but just looked into it now. I might join as a start to my path on becoming an advisor. Thanks again for sharing this information!

    2. NicoleK*

      Once I start seriously applying for jobs, it usually takes me six months to land a new position. So hang in there.

  125. RestingWitchFace*

    The ongoing saga of trying to fit into a new job…

    So, I started almost exactly three months ago, and up until now I’ve been given the explicit impression that people like me and I’m good at what I do. At my two-month check-in, my HR manager told me she had “no worries” about me making it through the full 90 day probationary period. My probation ends on Monday, and so I wasn’t particularly surprised when the HR manager said she wanted to speak with me.

    She proceeded to inform me that multiple co-workers, including partners in the firm, had complained about my overall attitude, and that my probation was being extended another month.

    I was FLOORED. I’d never heard anything but positives for the whole three months, other than a couple minor issues which I acknowledged and tried to improve on. I was told that three different people had described me as arrogant, insubordinate, unwilling to follow procedure, thinking I was smarter or better than everyone else, full of excuses, unwilling to take responsibility…the list went on and on and on. And this was the first I was hearing of any of it. I’d been repeatedly told, in so many words and to my face by multiple different people, that I was smart, that I was doing well, that they were so relieved to have me in my department… I felt super-confident that they loved me and that this was going to be the company I stayed with for years to come.

    Now, to clarify – I don’t actually believe any of this. I have tons of respect for the people I work with, and think they’re a great bunch. I’ve felt super responsible for any mistakes I’ve made at work, and have really tried to be very proactive about acknowledging and apologizing for mistakes as I’ve become aware of them, whether by finding them myself or having them pointed out to me if I didn’t catch them. However, it’s clear that despite how I feel, I’ve somehow managed to give an almost unbelievably wrong impression of my feelings. I’m hoping to talk to HR again after next week (she’s out of town thru Friday) after I’ve had time to collect my thoughts, but right now I feel completely baffled. I stammeringly explained that I had no idea that I’d offended people and was very sorry, and she politely but firmly told me that I needed to be more self-aware, and insisted that she had no choice but to extend my probationary period.

    So how do I correct a bad impression like this? I really like the place – it’s a great bunch of people, and I’ve found the work rewarding and engaging. Still, if this is just a personality issue I’m sort of stymied on where to start fixing it. If I’m doing something I don’t know I’m doing, I’m not sure how to stop doing it.

    Help!

    1. fposte*

      This sounds hard, and you’re taking it really well.

      Can you ask for a meeting with the HR manager and your direct manager (I wasn’t clear if they were the same or not) about how much you’d like to improve and the possibility of coaching? Maybe outline some suggested possibilities of areas to consider, like email communication and partnering with the Dregs team, in case they don’t have any specifics ready?

      If there are people you regularly talk to who might be the people who’ve complained, you might approach them in a quiet moment and say “Wow, I found out I really got off on the wrong foot with some people here and I’m mortified and would like to be better–would you be willing to help by giving me feedback on my communication/collegial skills sometimes?”

      1. RestingWitchFace*

        Thanks – I think I’m still sort of in shock over the whole thing.

        I do know who a couple of the people are, because the HR manager brought up a couple of specific incidents. A lot of it sounds to me like it’s partly a failure of communication – people think they’re being clear about something, and when I get confused or don’t do it properly, it comes off as being quite rude where really it’s just a total mix-up. I was able to give my perspective on a couple of these and while I still tried to take responsibility and apologize for having seemed rude, the HR manager seemed to accept that I’d been genuinely unaware that I’d done anything wrong.

        I also just got through a rough patch in my personal life – it’s resolved now and everything’s fine again, but it’s been ongoing for about three weeks now. My only other idea has to do with the fact that every incident she mentioned fell within that period. I’m wondering if it’s possible that I was unwittingly letting my stress from my personal life leak into my workplace attitude, and seemed shorter of temper or less patient or something for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with my job.

        Since I know who some of the specific people are, would it be appropriate to go to them and apologize? I’m doubly paranoid of trying to discuss the issues because of the one criticism that I am perceived as making excuses instead of taking responsibility… I never intend to make excuses, but sometimes offer explanations for what happened to cause my mistake. I mean it to come off as being self-aware and taking steps to prevent mistakes going forward, but it seems to be coming off as shifting blame. Would it be reasonable at all to approach the HR manager (not my direct supervisor, but I think my supervisor might be one of the people who complained) and say something like “this doesn’t excuse my behavior, but I think I might have been in a bad mood for the last few weeks because X. It’s resolved now, and I’ll be more aware in the future of letting my personal life affect my work life”?

        Sorry for the rambling post… I’m still trying to process all of this. RIght now it feels like I’ve somehow taken a job in the Twilight Zone.

        1. AW*

          Since I know who some of the specific people are, would it be appropriate to go to them and apologize?

          They might get upset that HR didn’t keep that info confidential. If they ever come to you directly about this apologize then but it might backfire to say that HR told you what they said to HR. And if you think people are interpreting your explanations as attempts to divert blame, just stick to, “I’m sorry, it won’t happen again” or “I’m sorry, I’ll be more careful in the future”.

        2. KJR*

          Your DIRECT SUPERVISOR went to HR and complained about you?? That in and of itself is ridiculous. The ball was in her court to work with you to correct any issues you might have been having, as you were having them! Not at the end of your probationary period. I can see going to HR to ask for help in how to handle a specific situation, but to directly complain about you is out of line and shirking their responsibilities as a manager. This whole thing smells rotten to me, and at the very least handled poorly. But, it does sound like you are taking the right approach (i.e. I’m not sensing an attitude that could hurt you as you navigate through this). I would not approach the people you feel you may have offended, but rather re-examine the examples you were given and come up with some different ways of handling future similar situations. I’m shaking my head on your behalf. Good luck!!
          (As a side note, to avoid exactly this type of situation, I have our managers complete a 30/60 day check in, so there are no surprises at 90. It’s worked out really well.)

          1. I'm Not Phyllis*

            This. You shouldn’t have been hearing about it through HR when it hadn’t been raised with you first. I mean, I do understand that you were on probation (I just had a probation period end myself), but it’s common courtesy to talk to you first before going straight to HR.

          2. fposte*

            Yeah, that’s wild that the supervisor didn’t raise this with you but felt it was important enough for somebody else to talk to you about. (Though note that RWF *did* have a 60-day check in and this didn’t get mentioned there, so there are no guarantees, I guess.)

            I do think, RWF, you might be onto something with that bad-period idea. If you’re new, a bad period can get read as “the honeymoon’s over” instead of “oh, she must be having a bad time.” I wouldn’t go out apologizing to people, but I’d definitely want to talk to my supervisor to say “Wow, I had no idea and this is the opposite of how I feel–what can I do to improve things going forward?” If she won’t take active management of you, you can at least set up management opportunities and hope she will take advantage of them.

        3. MsM*

          Assuming they’re not several levels above you in seniority, you might consider asking them out to lunch or coffee. Don’t frame it as “HR said you were mad at me”; just say you haven’t had a chance to get to know all of your colleagues as well as you’d normally like to during your first weeks on the job, and you want to fix that. And when you do get projects from these folks in future, ask lots of questions and get stuff in writing if there’s any chance at all of confusion, and thank them profusely for their input or apologize right away and in person if possible if something goes wrong.

          As for your supervisor, I think you can be more direct there. Share the feedback from HR without naming names, ask if there’s anything she’s noticed you need to improve, share whatever improvement strategies you’ve come up with on your own and stress your willingness to receive and respond to feedback, and go from there.

    2. AW*

      Any chance you could ask your HR manager what changed between two months from now and today? It could be useful to find out if this is the result of something that happened recently.

      To be honest, I think this smells. If the problem was this bad it should have come up sooner. But even if the complaints are legit, it’s unfair to blindside you with this and dump on you all at once like that.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Ugh. It really, really sucks to be surprised with this kind of information. For some reason, I’m prone to surprises like this, where I think my attitude is great and people really like me, but it turns out I’ve alienated everyone. Yuck.

      What you need, I think, is specific examples from your manager about what you’re doing wrong and how you can make it better.

    4. NicoleK*

      Are you close to anyone at your new job who can give you honest feedback? Your situation is pretty similar to the one in my organization. It’s pretty obvious I don’t get along with the new coworker. That said, other colleagues have concerns about new coworker too, they’re just able to hide it better, so it’s not obvious to her. In the meantime, new coworker is going around thinking she’s wonderful, everything is wonderful. When in reality people are saying that she’s prissy, bit of a princess, demanding, challenging, immature communicator, socially awkward, lacks awareness, and etc behind her back.

      1. RestingWitchFace*

        Thanks for your reply. I do have one pretty good friend at the new job – I mean, I’ve only been there a couple months, but we’ve hung out a few times outside of work. I texted him today after work (we’re in a busy time so I didn’t have time before work got out) and basically told him what had happened and asked if he had heard anything about me offending people around the office. He said he was as shocked as I was, and that he hadn’t heard anything. So assuming he wasn’t just trying to protect my feelings, I’m as confused as ever. :(

        It’s not so much the criticism – I’m used to the idea that a new workplace involves compromise and transition – as it is the fact that I was told over and over that I was doing well. Like, even up to the point that, in a firm-wide meeting, the founder of the company called me out by name as being an asset to the company. To go from that to being on extended probation and potentially in danger of losing my job is really the ultimate emotional roller coaster.

        1. misspiggy*

          …which raises the ugly possibility that someone is jealous of you and wants to take you down a peg. You may need to consider whether that someone could be your supervisor, and they’re using your ‘bad period’ as an opportunity. No reason to change your approach, and the other advice here is great, but keep in mind that someone may not be acting with integrity. If that does turn out to be the case, you could look at moving within the organisation.

  126. A Minion*

    I always end up late to the game here, but maybe this won’t get too lost in the shuffle!!
    I’m at a smallish nonprofit and my predecessor has been with the org for 48 years. She prints out everything and sometimes in duplicate or triplicate! I’ve been here for just under a year, so I have been waiting till I get a good handle on my duties before making any major changes. While I’m still learning every day, I’ve finally come to a place that I’d like to implement some changes and one of the biggest is that I’d like to go as paperless as possible. I know we can’t be completely paperless, but I can definitely clear up some of the mounds and mounds of paper that I have in my office from my predecessor. (Seriously…there are things that go back to the mid-90’s, binders for everything imaginable and every time she printed something out, several people got hard copies even if they didn’t strictly need them.)
    So, have any of you gone through the process of trying to go paperless? How did it go and do you have any tips to make the process easier? Just to give a little more context, this org has been very big on “That’s how we’ve always done it.” in the past and my predecessor is still here, though in a different capacity than before. I believe she will have a serious problem with me trying to change the systems she implemented and she still firmly believes in printing it out and making copies to distribute. Our BOD recently asked us to stop printing out so much for the board meetings, so I saw that as an opportunity to start a paperless campaign. How should I go about it? Full monty? One thing at a time? Develop policies and procedures first, then start implementation?

    1. RestingWitchFace*

      Hey there, this is very like my first job. I went through at least some of this process, so here’s what I did (with pretty decent success):

      1) DEFINITELY go one thing at a time. There are a couple reasons for this. First, too sweeping of changes cause both resistance and confusion. The last thing you want is for someone to forget where a particular digital document is stored, or for some client to find your new online document system baffling, and for them to scrap the whole thing because of it. Start with small things – do you REALLY need that third copy? Is there a reliable, firm-wide location (a server, Google Drive, wherever) where things could be stored and accessed by anyone who needed them? Could you switch to a digital newsletter? Those sorts of things. It’s also just a fact of the modern workplace that some things are really, really hard to make paperless. Going slowly lets you evaluate things on a case-by-case basis.

      2) When you pitch it to people, focus on benefits rather than features. YOU might be motivated by the idea that you’re saving the planet, reducing waste, etc, but those are not as concrete to some people. How much money do you spend on paper? On postage? How many different locations do you currently dedicate to paper files? Those sorts of things – and the prospect of fixing them – can really motivate people. Again, while going paperless might be the environmentally responsible thing, your company still has to focus on its bottom line, and whether it can continue to be successful and profitable with this new system.

      3) Have a proposal as ready as possible to go. Have a handle on potential document management solutions, alternate communication strategies, etc. Not that you need to have all the answers – but show that you’ve researched it, and could be trusted to handle this kind of a transition.

      Good luck!

      1. Kasia*

        Agreed with everything said above. It might also help for you to start small- as in you aren’t even implementing a whole policy, you’re just making suggestions. I had a similar problem with my old boss who would print out emails for me to read?? Do you not understand that’s what forwarding is for? She printed everything. I also had to spend some time cleaning up my desk from my predecessor who had copies on copies of the same piece of paper in different places. Most of it was completely not needed.

        I would suggest boxing some of it up and putting it in storage if it’s truly not needed and leaving it for a few years. That might soften people into believing they dont acutally need it anymore.

        And i would also suggest recycle bins. That way even if people still insist on printing ridiculous amount of paper it can at least be recycled

        1. KJR*

          Ha, your second paragraph reminds of what I used to do when cleaning my (then) young childrens’ rooms. I’d end up with several trash bags full of junk (McDonald’s toys, random chewed up barbie shoes, etc.) among other things. I’d keep it in the garage for a few months in case I’d inadvertently thrown something away that they actually cared about (which I definitely wanted to avoid). They never came back to me once looking for something.

        2. A Minion*

          LOL @ printing out emails for you to read! That’s exactly what I’m dealing with. At least once a week she comes in to my office and hands me an e-mail she’s printed out for me. I have gone through her old files and cleaned out about 11 storage boxes full of files – the long ones, not those short little banker’s boxes. While I was looking through them to be sure I didn’t throw out something important, I found files where she printed an e-mail she sent to a grantor. Printed their response, printed her response to their response…the end result was that she has several copies of the same email over and over in these files! It was infuriating and funny all at the same time.
          Thanks to both of you for the advice. You’re right, I will begin the process slowly and implement one thing at a time. Some things may not make sense to go completely paperless, but I think I can make a big impact in the budget, regardless.

          1. MsM*

            One place to start might be by finding some sample document storage policies. It might not cut down on the quantity of paper currently being generated, but it should at least help clarify that triplicate copies of every piece of correspondence ever are not industry standard.

  127. Alma*

    With regards to computer based job applications – does anyone know why they ask who your cell phone carrier is after you input your cell phone number?

    And why do some applications want exact dates for graduations? The computerized forms don’t allow for “June 1936” and won’t let the process continue until the day is filled in. I do have a Bachelors and Masters degree.

      1. Retail Lifer*

        I hate those applications that ask for the month, DAY, and year. No, I have no idea what the exact date I graduated was, nor do I have any idea what the exact date was when I started or left any job. It’s hard enough to keep track of just the months and years!

        1. Kelly L.*

          I kid you not, my old LiveJournal ended up being a lifesaver for this. I dug into it and found posts like “I quit my job today!” and “Got a new job, w00t!”, and of course they were dated. Never thought my world of mid-twenties angst and fanfiction would come in so handy!

        2. OfficePrincess*

          The ONLY reason I remember my HS graduation date is because my mom turned 50 at the all-night party afterwards. My BS graduation was….the somethingteenth of May? Though our degrees weren’t actually officially conferred that day, so I don’t know why the date would matter unless I was applying a job that required the degree the next day. I don’t know the exact start and end dates of any of my previous jobs either, but now that I know that requesting that kind of stuff is a thing, I’m going to start keeping track.

        3. Honeybee*

          If I don’t remember, I just put the 15th for everything. I do remember the date that I graduated from college for some odd reason.

    2. BrownN*

      I know this isn’t much help, but I think it is mostly due to poor planning and lack of testing of online job applications before they are rolled out . All fields generally have the option of being required field or not. Some job applications while let you know in advance which fields are required. The majority of them only require month/year.

      Recently, I’ve tried to apply for a position in a hospital. I completed a cover letter and uploaded my resume. Then I had to complete the job history section, even though I gave them my resume, and filled it out per usual. When it came time to submit my application, I got error messages because I did not fill in the *day*. To make matters worse, it would not save my application so I could come back to it later.

      I called the hospital HR department and told them that the website only allowed for exact dates and that I did not know the exact date. HR told me to give an approximate date and then write in my cover letter that the dates on my application were approximates.

      I called the

      1. BrownN*

        I forgot to mention that you might be able to get the exact dates from your previous employers, though it can take quite awhile to get the information.

        I had one application where I had to list every single job that I had ever held, including exact dates (federal contracting agency), addresses, phone numbers, supervisor’s name, supervisor’s title, etc. It took me forever to try and find information from age 16 to 50. I’m sure the reason they required this was for background checks because some people would be placed in Top Secret positions, etc.

        1. BrownN*

          I’ve also had to put down exact dates for schooling from high school onward. Glad they didn’t ask for kindergarten, elementary, and junior high dates for I don’t think my mother even knew this.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I don’t know, but I signed up for text alerts with my bank and they asked who my carrier was. So I don’t think it’s just job applications.

    4. Kyrielle*

      If you’re texting through an internet API, you need to know whose server to connect to, to send the text messages. :)

  128. Newsie*

    How convenient that this happened today! Our supervisor wants us to ENTIRELY change our workflow based on just one anchor’s needs. Our actual boss was, I believe, managing the system by balancing our needs with the anchor’s needs. But no – our supervisor was filling in for our boss, and decided to change the workflow unilaterally for this anchor. Not only will this new workflow be nearly impossible to accomplish under the current laws of time and space, but it also neglects the needs of the other anchors we have. We’re having a meeting about it Sunday and I think there may be Mutiny on the Bounty. I’m trying to compose myself, because when we have raised issues before, this supervisor has said, “I get that, but just do it this way” in a way that shows he doesn’t “get that.” I will accept all good calm reverse management vibes with much gratitude!

    1. Colette*

      When is the boss back?

      I think you speak up (politely) about the issu so this will cause and then do as your supervisor asks and let the disaster strike if it will (doing your best to prevent it, of course).

      Good luck on Sunday!

  129. Zinnia*

    I just started a new job after seven years in various roles at a previous agency. Was planning to send an e-mail with my contact information to my colleagues at the previous agency. That’s still a normal thing to do, right? Or in this post-LinkedIn era is this just not done?

  130. MsChanandlerBong*

    I have a very odd payroll question. Let’s say Dave owns a small company. He employs his wife, two part-time employees, and one full-time employee. None of the other employees are related to him or his wife.

    Gina does not work more than 50 hours per week. In fact, there are weeks she barely hits 40. However, she routinely submits time cards for 100+ hours of work in a WEEK–not a pay period. Because Dave is her husband, he pays her for the hours she records. Is it okay to pay whatever you want if the employee is related to you, or does this run afoul of tax/payroll regulations? I’m thinking it might not be legal, but I am not sure.

    1. Sascha*

      Even if she was working non-business hours or things like that, 100+ a week seems unrealistic. What is her role at the company? I have no idea if that’s legal or not, I’m just curious about what Gina does.

    2. LBK*

      I’m pretty sure you can pay anyone you want for any amount of hours you want as long as they’re paid at least as much as they actually earned. Payroll law rarely prevents people from doing more than the law requires – just like the FLSA doesn’t prevent you from paying overtime to exempt employees if you decide you want to. The only thing that would be shady about this is if he were falsely billing these hours to a client (which would probably be some form of fraud) or if he were only reporting her hours-worked paycheck to the IRS, not the actual amount she was taking home.

    4. Graciosa*

      I think paying it is probably legal, but I’m wondering whether there are any issues with deducting the (inflated) payroll as a business expense for tax purposes?

      This isn’t my area of practice, so I’m wondering if anyone better informed on this aspect might have some insight.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      If she actually records 100+ hours, that’s how much he should pay her. I’m not sure whether her not actually working those hours she recorded is legally considered fraud or not. Seems silly to go through these motions, though. If Dave owns the company and wants to pay his wife a ridiculous amount of money, why pay her by the hour? Just make her an exempt employee and pay her whatever yearly salary he wants to.

    6. jhhj*

      It’s intensely stupid and will almost certainly get him in trouble come an audit. (But I would bet that Gina works at home too, if it’s a very small family business.) I don’t understand why he doesn’t just pay her a higher hourly wage and move on — it is certainly legal to pay your employees MORE than market wage.

  131. MaryMary*

    So, we just had one of our former client contacts apply for an open position at my company (current client, former contact person). This isn’t that unusual. Open poaching is frowned upon, but it’s not uncommon for someone on the client side to move to consulting, or a consultant to go work for a client. However, this contact not only left her previous job (our client) on short notice and mysterious circumstances, she was also TERRIBLE to work with. She was non-responsive, disorganized, communicated poorly, and blamed us for her mistakes. She bad mouthed us to her boss and suggested they look at other consultants. And now she wants to work for us! We’re a small agency, she has to know that she’d be working with her former consultants. My mind is blown.

    1. Jill of All Trades*

      Check out the post from earlier this week regarding incompetent people having no idea they are incompetent.

  132. LookyLou*

    I am really unsure what to do about this… my entire life I’ve suffered from severe social anxiety to the point where it could be crippling. I’ve never had more than a couple of friends at any point in my life and after drifting apart from high school friends you could say my husband is my friend.

    At work I can be a VERY quiet person, especially when I first start. But then once I get comfortable with who I am working with, I open right up. Sometimes my coworkers cannot shut me up! But if I am not interacting with someone regularly or they make no attempt to be social with me, then I often get very quiet and don’t speak with them unless I need to for my job. I wish I could be a social butterfly with everyone but I am not that type of person.

    There is an older man that I work with who is just like me, but he is seen as “a man of few words” and is respected for it, since I am a younger woman I am just seen as shy, weird and antisocial.

    There are a lot of events at work that I am excluded from – I have never even been asked to participate. Often times the receptionist goes from person to person asking what they want on the coffee run (boss pays) and she NEVER once stops by my desk to ask me, the same thing happens when they are collecting money for office gifts or people are fundraising for things.

    Being in bookkeeping I also often find out that the company foots a lot of social events. These things are typically held on the weekend and I am the only person not informed that they are happening. At first I assumed it was only people working on the weekend, but it turns out it is EVERYONE being invited. They’ll order in dinner and purchase alcohol or they’ll go out to a bar/restaurant to eat. Often they are referred to as “Staff Party” on the receipt so I can expense it, they even write the names of everyone in attendance so I know everyone (plus some family members) show up.

    Last week an employee was leaving and was having a going away party at a local bar. I did not find out about this party until the next day – and of course, the boss paid the bill.

    I am starting to feel extremely excluded from the workplace and I feel like they are sending a clear message that I am not part of their team. Newer employees are included in these ‘parties’ while I am left out. Apart from how this impacts me emotionally, I feel that this is a ‘perk’ that I am missing out on. I am one of the lower paid employees so having a free supper every week or so is a HUGE deal to me.

    Due to my anxiety I am very non confrontational, I would worry about the impression I am sending across to my boss by complaining about the exclusion. I also wouldn’t want to be invited because people feel obligated to have me there. But am I maybe reading into this too much? Or is this a clear sign that I am not seen as part of the team?

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      That sucks! I would talk to your boss about it for one very specific reason: maybe your boss doesn’t know that you aren’t being invited and assumes that you don’t want to be there. You’re missing out on some valuable networking opportunities with your coworkers, and since the company (not your boss – to be clear) is footing the bill, you should be invited along with everyone else whether you’re a social butterfly or not.

      I’m an extreme introvert myself so I totally understand where you’re coming from, but I worry that this is going to hurt you in the long run if you don’t speak up. It’s not a complaint, more of a “hey just so you know …” or “sounds like you had a great time this weekend, I’d love the opportunity to come next time.” It’s fair and completely legit for you to raise this because the company is paying. It’s not just a bunch of friends going out for drinks after work and paying their own tabs. The only way I’d think maybe it wasn’t your place would be if it was department-specific or management only, or something like that – but from your description it doesn’t seem like that’s the case.

    2. MsM*

      I don’t think you can say for sure that you’re deliberately being snubbed and not just overlooked unless they ignore a direct expression of interest on your part. Which means you’re going to have to speak up. When the receptionist makes the coffee rounds, don’t wait for her to come to you; pipe up and ask if she can bring you back a latte. Same with the cards and collections. And ask someone you like or who at least seems sympathetic if they know who’s in charge of organizing or if there’s a distribution list for these things, because you’d really like to participate. The weekend parties may not actually be as inclusive as you think they are, or there may be something shadier going on. But your coworkers aren’t going to know whether you’re quiet because you’re shy or because you just want to keep your head down and do your work unless you give them some kind of hint. You don’t have to be a social butterfly, but you need to put yourself out there at least a little. And I say this as a quiet introvert with anxiety issues myself.

    3. NicoleK*

      Is there a coworker that you’d be interested in getting to know better? If so, invite that person out to lunch or coffee. When you’re more reserved, if you pass on the first or second invitation, people assume that you’re not interested and stop inviting you. Also, it’s perfectly okay to approach the receptionist before a coffee run to let her know that you’d be interested in either going with her or getting something.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds to me like your name is missing from a few email lists. They are probably wondering why you never show up. Why not just say to your boss “The party sounds like it was fun. Can I get an invite to go sometime?”

  133. Colette*

    Hi everyone, I wanted to stop in to say that I started a new job two weeks ago and have very limited internet at work, so I won’t be around much. I will be reading, of course, and you may see me comment in the mornings/evenings or on weekends, but not at work, because I’m too lazy to type on my phone .

  134. jhhj*

    Have we all seen the menstrual blood story on Reddit and now on Slate? What would you do if your coworker left bloodstains over all the chairs and your (male) boss refused to do anything? It is such a weird story.

    1. fposte*

      I didn’t, and I just looked at the Slate piece, which was odd, and Reddit, which was more predictably odd.

      I think the anonymous note was doomed, and I wish the OP hadn’t been advised to do that. But it sounds like the leaker needs more handling than a co-worker could provide, and that the boss was a serious wuss on this one.

      1. fposte*

        But I did just find a really good post by an HR person on the update (if there are two updates, it’s the first one) that gives a *great* script for people to draw from in situations like that.

        However, there’s also someone misstating what constitutes a hostile work environment and insisting she gets trained on the subject so she knows. Oh, Reddit.

  135. Kathywithak*

    I’m a new manager and on of my direct reports is a former peer who has always rubbed me the wrong way. He’s very competent in his role, but his personality drives me crazy–he’s judgmental and pedantic. This doesn’t affect the quality of his work, but I’m having trouble focusing on just the work. Today I almost caught myself disagreeing with him just for the sake of contradicting his know-it-all self. Any tips on how to handle this and just get over it? Thanks!

    1. Kyrielle*

      No ideas, and I’m sorry for that, but I wanted to say I really admire you for knowing this, acknowledging it, and trying to counter it. You rock, and I hope someone else comes along and has useful advice. :)

    2. Graciosa*

      One of the shifts you have to make in moving to management is to think of yourself as responsible for ensuring the success of members of your team. This is a different mind set from that of an individual contributor in the work place.

      How is his behavior (not personality) impacting his ability to succeed in the work place? In some roles, what you describe would not be an issue. In others, it could be crippling. This can be true even if it doesn’t affect the quality of his work product. Someone who generates a great written report but can’t garner human support for his position may never be able to advance until this is addressed.

      If his behavior is limiting his (or your team’s) success, you need to act like a manager. This may mean limiting his impact (he writes the report but someone else presents and works with other departments) if he has no interest in other roles. It may mean coaching him on how to present his points more effectively – not in a way that makes you more comfortable because your comfort is the first thing you need to stop caring about, but more effectively in the sense that it will be better understood, more easily accepted, or more likely to advance the agenda of the department. It may mean finding him a mentor who will be a better coach for him in this area than you are.

      His success is your JOB.

      You need to spend your mental energy thinking about how you can use the resources (people) you have most effectively to accomplish your mission – and that includes putting the effort into developing those resources to be more effective than they are now.

      As a manager, I spend more time than I would ever have imagined thinking about my team. If you’re having difficulty concentrating on this, draw up formal development plans for every member of your team. Identify their strengths and what opportunities you can offer to let them shine. Identify weaknesses and how you can help minimize them. When you talk to your team members in one-on-ones, ask about their aspirations and incorporate them into the development plans. Identify what you can do to help get them ready for the next role in the career path they’ve chosen.

      If you think of him as an annoyance, you’re not likely to be able to help him at all. If you think of him as someone it is your privilege to guide and support in his career, you will have a much better chance of helping him. Assume he can tell how you really feel about him, because the odds are that he can.

      You no longer have the option of seeing a problem in the work place that involves your team and reacting like anything other than a manager.

      *** P.S. – That was probably strong and harsh because this is a huge and terribly important mental transition that you have got to get right. As a new manager, you are forming habits that will determine what kind of a leader you will be for the rest of your career – but we’re human, and it’s hard. I promise that if you keep trying to do your best for your team, it will get easier – and you will know the secret pride and joy of seeing members of your team achieve things you never imagined. In those moments, it is totally worth it. Best wishes –

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If he is rubbing you the wrong way imagine what he is doing to his peers while you are safely in your office. The thing I used to tell myself that really motivated me was, “My group is counting on me to handle this situation. I cannot force them to keep coping with something that is not reasonable.”
      As soon as my conversation shifted from “Don’t treat me that way” to “Don’t treat others here that way”, it got easier.

    4. NicoleK*

      Have you received complaints from his colleagues? If so, then the problem is more than just a personality clash between you and him. If that’s the case, then as the manager, you should address it.

  136. Jill of All Trades*

    I’ve been a sr analyst for about 5 years now. I got my MBA three years ago. I don’t understand the hurdle to getting into a management role. My company doesn’t have any room to promote me since my team is small and stable, even though my role has grown a lot in the 2.5 years I’ve been there, so I’ve started looking. I really want to move up before I’m at this level so long that I really start to look unpromotable (if it’s not already too late for that). Just this week I was talking with a recruiter about a manager role, and while talking about that he switched to an analyst role and tried to sell me on it for basically no increase in pay or responsibilities. How is that compelling? I declined to apply and explained my criteria of location, salary, and title and that without 2 of the 3 being met I don’t want to waste anyone’s time by applying.

    Has anyone here hired a solid individual contributor as a manager? What was it that they did or said that got them seriously considered? How long can I languish here? Gahhhhh!

    1. Graciosa*

      I think almost all managers spent some time as individual contributors, so it’s not an unusual jump to make. There are no magic words or actions that will get you the promotion you’re looking for – it doesn’t work that way.

      I’m not actually convinced that five years constitutes “languishing” but this varies by field or industry, so I’ll assume you have a better sense of that – meaning you have learned about the career histories of multiple people in the positions to which you aspire, and know the maximum length of tenure as an individual contributor which will still allow you to make the move to management.

      If you haven’t done this type of evaluation, do it and get the information. A recruiter (who wants to place you at as high a salary as possible because it increases commission) suggesting you’re not yet a good managerial candidate may be a sign that you need to think seriously about how marketable you are in that kind of role.

      In evaluating how promotable you are, think about the skills and strengths needed to be a great manager (not a great analyst) and get clear feedback about how you’re perceived in those areas. For example, management frequently requires very different people skills – not just leading and motivating a team, but relationship building with other departments. It can also require different types of strategic thinking (how do you envision where the team needs to be in five or ten years) and problem solving (more cross-functional collaboration).

      There are lots of individual contributors who are great in their current roles, but who lack key skills required to manage a team – or who are perceived to lack them, which is just as damaging. You need to find out (by actively soliciting feedback from honest critics) if this is something that may be holding you back.

      In my field, our most senior individual contributors demonstrate leadership, problem solving, and collaboration both informally and by leading cross-functional teams. The management title comes *after* the individual has become someone everyone already looks to for leadership.

      Tenure alone doesn’t mean much.

      Honestly, it can be a bit of a turn-off if it’s presented as a major selling point for a candidate. I’m not saying that this is the case with you (I understand your frustration, and again, I don’t know what’s typical for your industry), but many people who focus on tenure as an argument for promotion can come off as entitled and a bit naive (not understanding that the key is really demonstrating likely success in a job that requires a *different* skill set).

      Focusing on the skills you have demonstrated (through your achievements) and how they match up with the position is usually a stronger approach.

      Good luck.

    2. NicoleK*

      You didn’t disclose your industry so this may not be completely applicable in your situation. I spent 10 plus years as an individual contributor before landing my first management position so it can take some time. Besides the excellent feedback already provided by Graciosa. Are you able to transition to a different industry? Move from for profit to government or non profits? Volunteer your skills and knowledge to others?

  137. Lebanese Blonde*

    Late arrival to the thread, but I need advice! I just received a job offer after a month wait since my interview. Really thought I wasn’t going to hear, but got the job! Which is great but causing me a bit of stress. It’s my first full-time job offer since graduating, I have 4 days to decide, and have a ton of factors to weigh.

    The good: would be about 20-25k more than I thought I would ever make right out of college, it’s the first job I applied for since graduation (which bodes well!), it would give me practical experience in an area in which I want to get my Masters (although the job relates to domestic stuff, and I’m more interested in international), I would save enough to put myself through grad school, I would make a lot of connections that would be powerful in the future, the office/company culture is really attractive

    The bad: it’s really only tangentially related to what I want to do (thought it was much closer until the interview clarified what the job looks like day-to-day), they want a much longer commitment than I had hoped (of course, it’s at-will, but I don’t want to leave too much earlier than they’ve requested), it’s a very high-stress environment, and (this is the kicker) it’s within a 10 mile radius of where I grew up and went to college (my plan was always to leave as soon as I finish my current summer internship)

    Thoughts? I’ve gone back and forth about 10 times in the past hour. I haven’t heard from anywhere else that I’ve applied.

    1. Kyrielle*

      Scut-work or tangentially-related work is sadly not uncommon after graduation. If it’ll give you a good stepping stone and base, that part of it might be worth it. Staying in the area you grew up – depends on how badly you want to get out ASAP. (If your family is still in the area and supportive, it could even be an advantage, depending.)

      The high-stress environment would worry me, depending on whether you know how you deal with stress. And when you say they want a long commitment – are they hoping you’ll stay 1 year? 2-3? 5? The larger that number gets, the more I think ‘wait a minute….’

      And as you say, if it’s at-will, you can always have a change of plans. Not go in planning on it, no. But if you go in intending to give them their X years, and you discover you can’t hack it, or something comes up, there’s no shame in that. It’s life. If you go in intending to give them way less than they want and make the commitment falsely, that’s different, though they have no actual recourse. I don’t think from your words here that it would sit well with you, any more than it would with me if I were in that position, tho.

      1. Cati*

        Agree with above – how high-stress are we talking? How long of a commitment? Is there something significantly bad about staying in town (Abusive friends/family/other) or are you just itching to get out? Other than those things this sounds like a definite yes to me — you can get a lot of good experience that will let you move in the direction you want to go, and will make it MUCH easier to find a job at a different location. Any experience at all is better than risking months of a blank spot on your resume – the job market is tough out there!

        1. SilverRadicand*

          Agreed with the above two. Regarding a high-stress job (which I consider myself to have) things to consider:
          You will be doing this (I assume) for at least 40hrs/wk which is a large amount of your waking hours. You say it is high stress. Do you (or will you) have a support system to help relieve that stress when you get off work?
          The effect of stress at work is a lot worse if you are just going home to an empty apartment everyday. But a couple good friends in the area can make a difficult job doable or even enjoyable.

    2. Nobody*

      I would go for it. It actually sounds similar, in many ways, to my first job after college (except that I had a long, painful period of unemployment and part-time employment first, which made the job look all that much more attractive).

      Since this is your first job out of college, your ideas about what you want to do are just that — ideas. The reality can often be very different, and you can find yourself doing your theoretical “dream job” and hating it. Conversely, once you start doing this tangentially-related stuff, you may find that you like it, or that there are enough practical advantages to it that you’re better off sticking with it than your original plan. Plus, you never know what doors a job can open for you, and you said yourself that this job could give you powerful connections.

      The money is important. You’re young, and you have so much to do and see in your life, and having financial stability early on will make a huge difference in your quality of life (and now is a great time to start saving for retirement, if you haven’t already, because it will give your money the most time to grow). I’m not saying you should sell your soul or go through hell day in and day out just to make a few more bucks, but if you’re like most of us, you’ll be working to live; the whole point of working is to make money to support your lifestyle.

      As for the location, maybe there are things you didn’t mention that you hate about your hometown, but based on what you said, it looks like you just want to get out on your own. I was in a similar situation; I was sick of living with my parents and I wanted to go somewhere new and different, but I got a job offer pretty close to my hometown. I recently left that job and moved far away, and let me tell you, I miss living close to my hometown now! I guess it’s partly because I hate the area where I live now, but it’s really convenient to be close to family on holidays and special occasions. If your family still lives around there, you will save a lot of money on travel if you’re with reasonable driving distance. As long as you get your own place and set boundaries, you can have just as much independence living 10 miles from your family as 1000 miles.

      It’s hard to speak to your other concerns without more information, but you will have to weigh those things carefully against the advantages. In what sense is it “high stress”? Do you work well under pressure, or do you get stressed out easily? You said the company culture is attractive, and I’m not sure what you mean by that either, but it can make a big difference in how much you like or dislike your job. I think a mediocre job at a great company is probably better than a great job at a terrible company. As for them wanting a longer commitment: well, every employer wants employees to stick around for a long time, but it’s really up to them to make it worth your while. You said it’s at will, so I’m assuming you’re not signing any contracts, but you might want to consider how seriously they take this kind of commitment (does it sound more like a wish or a demand?).

      Only you can decide what’s right for you, but you asked here to get other people’s opinions, and this is mine: if I were in your shoes, I would go for it. Good luck!

      1. Lebanese Blonde*

        Thank you for all the advice!

        High stress is actually the most minor part of it–I had 2 majors, ran a student organization, and interned/worked throughout college and actually work best under stress.

        The insight about the hometown issue is really helpful. My hometown is really wonderful, actually (think major city/hub of recent graduates). I am very lucky to live here, and could afford, after working a month or two, to move to my own place. However, the issues are mainly personal–needing a clean break from friends and relationships and a flurry of generally tough things. I’m not sure if I’m using the idea of moving away as a Band-Aid for everything, but a change would be REALLY nice.

        Regarding the working to live thing–I have really found a career that I’m excited and passionate about, and this summer was my first real brush with it (via an internship). It’s taken me so long to break into the industry (think niche, talent-based work, similar to design or something) that leaving it so promptly before building up my work samples is a tough decision to make. It seems like a much bigger commitment than it probably is…

        Planning to spend the weekend on many pros and cons lists and ultimately go with my gut.

        1. misspiggy*

          You can still use the change of a new job as the lever to break unwanted social ties, especially in a major city. And you can continue what sounds like a second, freelance career on the side if you want to.

          If it were me I’d plan to give it 2 years in the new job. No one could criticise you for not staying longer in your first graduate job, and that amount of time wouldn’t mar your other prospects. If the thought of 2 years in that environment fills you with dread, don’t do it. But otherwise, it could be a great starting point. If you did take the job, could you negotiate a week or so to take an exciting holiday, or do something else to distinctively mark a new chapter in your life?

            1. Lebanese Blonde*

              2 years..! I was planning to go to grad school in a year, but that’s postponable. Lots of thinking to do.

        2. Buu*

          I agree you can still make a bit of a break, you can use the change in job as an excuse to drop out of commitments. You also have no obligation to update people of your new address either.

  138. Libby on Friday*

    tl;dr: I want to leave my job, but my boss has cancer. Do I owe it to people to stay?

    I’ve been working here seven years, which is the longest I’ve ever held a job by several orders of magnitude. This is the first job I’ve had where I have a real role and responsibilities that can’t be taken over by someone else (all my past work has been retail/low skill); it’s taken me years to convince myself that it was okay to leave, when it’s steady work and my biggest problem is the low pay and lack of room for advancement. (I also have some anxiety issues, which are triggered in a huge way by the job hunting process.) I updated my resume, went on a couple interviews and got some good feedback, and was generally starting to feel like I could do this… and then my boss was diagnosed with cancer, a scary kind requiring aggressive treatment.

    Well, after that I dropped the job hunt. It’s been several months since and boss is doing as well as can be expected, but it won’t be a short or an easy fight. We’ve all rallied to take over her day-to-day activities, but the lack of her knowledge and experience is still felt very strongly. I’m the next best thing, although I know maybe half of what she does. My role here, which I took over from her, is very critical to the running of the place, and if I leave there’s no one to take over for me. This is a very small business, around 10 employees and everyone wears multiple hats. Furthermore, we’re a very tight-knit place; some people have been here 30 years, several of them were my bosses’ personal friends before they were hired, we’re all “family,” etc. In addition to the hole I would leave in the business side of things (and the issue of who would hire and train my replacement), I would be forever seen as a traitor if I left while she was still ill. I feel guilty even thinking about it!

    So – am I doing the right thing by staying? Or am I making excuses again for anxiety!brain? Will future potential employers judge me for staying so long in one place without any change of roles/increase in responsibility? Does anyone have suggestions on how to get back into things when you had one foot out the door?

    1. Graciosa*

      No, you do not owe it to people to stay.

      Unless you own the business, making sure it keeps running without you is not your responsibility.

      If you think you need permission to leave, you have it.

      Do not allow fear or guilt to rule your life. If your co-workers were really family, they would want the best for you and would not expect you to sacrifice yourself to save company management from having to manage. You should do the best job you can of ensuring that your job is well-documented (leave a good desk manual and project status notes) but that is really the limit of your responsibility. If you do this, you can be confident that anyone who regards you as a “traitor” is unworthy of your consideration.

      All of that said, if you would like to stay and take on increased responsibility, that is your choice to make. If you want to make that choice, it is perfectly appropriate to have a discussion with your manager about changes in title (“Deputy” or “Acting” Boss?) or compensation that reflect your contributions. If this were a short term situation, this would traditionally be a bonus at the end of the temporary period of extra work rather than a salary increase.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Leave. You’ve put in seven years of good work. You have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. And I don’t mean that in the “it’s legal but scummy” or “it’s not going to hurt your future job prospects but it’s scummy” way. I mean it fully in the “you have NOTHING to feel guilty about by leaving.” Leave. Your boss’s cancer has nothing to do with it. In fact—and, yes, I know your boss has been through a lot—if you leave and your boss tries to give you any sort of guilt trip about it, your boss is a jerk. She may be a jerk with cancer, but laying a guilt trip on you for leaving is a jerk move. Leave. Leave. Leave.

    3. MsM*

      While what your boss is going through is horrible, from a professional standpoint, nobody is irreplaceable – or, at least, they shouldn’t be. It is okay to leave. You do not have to put your life on hold because of what is going on with someone else. Your coworkers may not be happy about it, but they’ll get through it, and hire someone who will jump in and learn what they need to learn, or possibly even come up with improvements. But since it sounds like you are in a relatively good place job-wise, you might as well be picky about what your next step is. And like Graciosa says, don’t be afraid talk about opportunities for advancement if that would make it more feasible for you to stay.

    4. SilverRadicand*

      Don’t stay.

      Instead, help out by teaching others what you know as you look and during your eventual notice period.

    5. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      If I were your boss, I would feel terrible if I knew you were planning your life around me and would want you to think long term for yourself. I had a Kay employee leave one time when I was very very sick for several months and the thought never crossed my mind that she should have changed her plans because of my illness.

    6. asteramella*

      Businesses survive the loss of key employees. You do not “owe” it to anyone to stay in the job. If your coworkers (or anyone else) choose to frame you leaving the company as a betrayal, that’s their problem. It may hurt and it may be uncomfortable, but you have the right to pursue opportunities for yourself, and it’s not your job to emotionally support your colleagues or your boss.

    7. Libby on Friday*

      Thank you, everyone, it’s really good to hear that I’m not a terrible person for wanting to leave. I needed that.

      I think I’ve exhausted my opportunities for advancement here, except for things that would be out of my comfort zone and wouldn’t further my desired career path. When I tried to take over some duties that DO fit with my current ones, the person currently doing them wouldn’t let go. Since she’s something of a superior, I let it drop.

      I can’t entirely disregard what my coworkers and bosses think of me, as I’ll need them for references. I (stupidly) didn’t keep in touch with past bosses or coworkers, and additionally my work habits have dramatically improved while I’ve been at this job, so I’d want people who can vouch for my current skills and experience. I know the usual advice is to ask coworkers who’ve already left – but in the seven years I’ve been working there, only one person has ever quit. This place is kind of like the Hotel California. (Sometimes I think my boss considers owning a business an excuse to employ her friends who wouldn’t otherwise have jobs… I mean, in a nice way, but still.) Anyone have suggestions for how to ask current coworkers to be a reference?

  139. ShoeRuiner*

    How do you deal with it at work when you have worked really hard on a huge project that gets picked apart by coworkers? I recently spent a lot of time on a project that no one really wants to take charge of ever, and while it was in motion everyone told me I was doing a great job. Then this week in staff meeting, we got on a tangent about it, and it seemed like everyone had little, nit-picky things to say. Not actually helpful ideas to add in the future. It was especailly maddening because staff who had been around for a while didn’t ever offer to help me, and new staff didn’t seek context before giving suggestions. How do you take this and take a lesson, and move on?

    1. Colette*

      Are these people whose opinion matters with respect to the project?

      My first manager used to say “that’s good information” when people gave him suggestions he didn’t want to commit to taking. I’d suggest using a similar phrase and recording the comments for consideration during the next phase of the project. You don’t have to agree with them. You don’t have to take them. But you do need to listen, consider them, and make your colleagues feel heard.

      (And comments like that don’t mean you did a bad job.)

      1. SilverRadicand*

        I second Colette.

        Record the thoughts, consider them next time (if they might be actually useful), be non-committal (or explain your reasoning if you think it would help you get better feedback, you never know), and then let it roll off.
        None of these folks cared enough to take charge of the project. So, simply because you are in charge of it, some things will be done differently than they envisioned it. That does not necessarily detract from its quality.

        (If, because of their nitpicking, you aren’t sure how your boss sees your work on the project, ask her about it and if there are any ways you can improve it next time. Your boss’s feedback is what I’d pay attention to.)

  140. Nobody*

    I have a friend/coworker, Joe, an experienced teapot maker who has been trying to get promoted to teapot designer. He’s had some performance/attitude problems, though, and has been rejected every time he’s applied for a promotion.

    A senior teapot designer, Mary, recently retired, and before Mary left, Joe asked management if he could take some time out from teapot making so Mary could train him on the teapot rendering software (Mary’s specialty). Management agreed to it, and Joe hoped this would help him get promoted as Mary’s replacement, but instead, a candidate from another department, Tim, was hired.

    Joe asked if he could reduce his teapot making duties so he could work on the teapot rendering software, but he was told no — that’s a teapot designer responsibility, and it’s Tim’s job now. However, management wants Joe to train Tim on the teapot rendering software and pass along what he learned from Mary. Joe feels insulted that he was rejected for the job but is now being asked to train the person who was selected over him, so he basically refused to train Tim. His plan is to keep the knowledge to himself until management gets so desperate that they have to beg Joe for help, and then he will be in a position to negotiate for something in return (a promotion or change in duties).

    I don’t think this will work out well for Joe because refusing to train Tim is insubordination, and he’s already on thin ice with management. I think Joe would be much better off if he would just cooperate and train Tim — and if he does a good job of it, this could actually help him get the promotion next time. I also don’t think management will be open to negotiating with Joe; it’s more likely that if they become desperate for Joe’s help, they will threaten disciplinary action to make him comply.

    Should I advise Joe to reconsider his plan, or should I just stay out of it? I’m afraid that if I say this to Joe, he will be mad that I am on “management’s side.”

    1. Colette*

      This is a terrible plan on Joe’s part. You shouldn’t encourage it, but I don’t think you’re obligated to speak up, either. You could try some comments like “I’m not sure that’s what will happen” or “what will you do if that doesn’t work?”

    2. Graciosa*

      You are right and Joe is wrong.

      Joe is very wrong, and I understand why he didn’t get promoted.

      That said, you have a better chance of assessing how open Joe is to hearing that he is wrong. My guess is not very (he is not displaying a lot of emotional maturity) but you know him best.

    3. MsM*

      I’d say stay out of it. You already know he’s not going to be receptive to your advice. Or if you’re going to encourage him to do anything, try and get him thinking about what the next step is if management insists they need him where he is and teapot designing is not going to happen, because it really sounds like it might be time for him to move on.

  141. Yet Another Fed*

    Asking for a friend:
    Question for the other Feds reading & commenting: is it a good or a bad sign if the same agency keeps on calling you back for interviews, over the course of several years, even if you haven’t received an offer from any of these interviews? And yes, I know that federal hiring is wacky.

    1. De Minimis*

      I think it’s a good sign in that you are deemed qualified enough for the positions to warrant an interview. I had a similar experience with one federal agency–it just never seemed destined to work out with them, at least not in the locations where I could work. I ended up trying a different agency and relocating for the job. I think that is one key factor, you either have to already be where the jobs are or you should be able to move there.

    2. AnotherFed*

      A good sign, definitely. It means you’re getting through the HR cert AND getting to the point where the hiring manager wants to interview you – that means you’ve got a good balance of buzzword bingo to get through the screening and real accomplishments that make the hiring manager want to talk to you. Federal hiring is tough, though – it can come down to panel interviews just being awkward as an interview format, or tons of competition for higher grade positions, or the reality that sometimes postings are really meant as internal promotions and written with a particular person’s odd combination of skills and experience in mind.

  142. Steve G*

    Urgh….the crap people will gossip about at work if no real gossip exists. So at new job, the big rumor is that I am being nepotisistic (or exhibiting nepotism) because I connected a friend to the owner who brought them on as a supplier NOT because they knew me but because they will occasionally give them materials at close to cost.

    So here I am thinking I am the savior doing everyone a favor, and I get gossiped about. Urgh. Granted, the people doing the gossip are VERY young and probably inexperienced, but on Monday their boss needs to set them straight and explain that people connecting people is NORMAL

    1. fposte*

      Sorry, Steve. Sounds like if it wasn’t that, it would be something else–that these are people who love to talk and you’re an exciting new mystery. And I think you’re right that they’re young and have no idea that when you’ve worked a while, you know people, and knowing somebody personally who can do the job is how hiring often works. That’s a very different thing from nepotism.

      1. Steve G*

        I talked to my manager today about something else and brought it up, and he said to watch out what I say to people. I’ve had 2 conversations with a CSR, and everything I’ve said has been dramatized and repeated to every other employee. The other CSR who gossiped about “nepotism” also said I was unprofessional because I am supposedly rude to my manager. He said I undermine boss’s authority. The manager had no idea what he was talking about. The CSR said I am curt and that it was rude when I sent the manager back to his desk to look at a spreadsheet when the manager wanted to discuss it at my desk. It took my manager a bit to even remember what he was talking about – well it was a spreadsheet breaking down commissions. The boss walked by and looked at my screen and I said “go look at your computer I sent it to you.” I didn’t want to discuss situations impacting commissions in front of people. Boss got it, as we had been discussing commissions on and off all day, and sometimes I go to his office, and he shews me away. Big whoopee. We are deep in thought working in our own tunnel vision.

        Imagine being lucky enough to find a job paying more than 2X the minimum wage when you are only 20yo and have no college or pertinent experience, and then have the gall to go to a manager 2 levels up to stir up drama about a new employee you’ve only said hi or bye to?! WTF!!!

        Meanwhile I am bringing the relevant experience and am sitting there VBAing the crap out of poorly designed things they do by hand, wasting loads of time, and taking time away from fixing bigger issues. Do you really want to start s*** and make the boss pick between you or me?! Just sayin’……….

  143. Masters Degree JD lady*

    I came back from vacation to find my boss and 2 others left and that I was transferred to a subdivision of the same branch (different than before). 7 more people announced they’re leaving. My job description drastically changed from teapot writer to teapot action item tracker management-no more writing. So how do you know when to leave/throw in the towel? I interviewed this past week at a teapot 3 year contract-type role for teapot writing, excellent benefits, top co in the area. It involves more telecommuting though due to prioritizing govt folks for office space–ie) 2-3 days in office, 3 days telecommute. Thoughts? Am at a crossroads :/

    1. Colette*

      Do you want to be a teapot writer? I think you can express that you’re not as onterested in the new job, but it sounds like you may not have a choice, so you may need to leave.

      With respect to the job you interviewed for, do you have a space you could work from at home? Would you hate being by yourself or would it be good in moderation?

      1. Masters Degree JD Lady*

        Yes, I want to be a teapot writer.

        This job–the task management–I’m fairly decent at it–it’s like risk management and it’s a marketable skill. However, it’s 10x more stressful because it’s very different from my usual job (writing/editing) and my job involves tracking incoming materials for my team to work on, and you have to dig to find the incoming materials. If you miss even one, you’re fried. It’s insane. I spent 8:30 am through 5:30 pm COB doing nothing but that–it’s project mgmt on steroids.

        Plus my team lead made me point of contact for reserving rooms, less than 24 hrs in advance, plus I manage the entire task output of my team. I’m doing the work of 5-7 people on the same pay I’ve always had (decent, but not as high as it could be).

        Re: interview–I live alone, it’s fairly quiet, and I have quiet neighbors (knock on wood). I like interacting with people but when I work I like having that quiet time to focus on just work (which I don’t have now b/c I even had to switch desks and now my desk is in the corner of a busy nonstoptalking hallway).

        I know I’m disciplined enough to telecommute and I’ve done it before, I’ve never done it for half/more than half a week so it makes me a bit nervous I guess–on top of making sure I’m getting the assignment right and all that..

        1. Colette*

          For me, how much I enjoy telecommuting depends on what I’m working on as well as how many days in a row it is. If I had to telecommute Monday/Wednesday/Friday, that would be different than Monday – Wednesday. Woukd you have a predictable schedule?

          I’d say go for the new job if you think you can handle the schedule. It sounds like it’s a better job for you and you seem prepared for telecommuting. I’d also add that since I assume you won’t be the only one telecommuting, it’s likely he people you’re working with will be prepared to deal with/socialize with/include someone they don’t see every day, which is much better than a situation where everyone else is in the office and you’re somewhere else.

  144. StudentA*

    Whew. Busy open thread :) I had a question, not sure if anyone is around anymore, but here goes.

    A staffing agency submitted me for a position. I have not heard back. Is it bad business etiquette to apply for the position on the employer’s career site? Is it too risky?

    1. Colette*

      If the staffing agency has submitted you, the employer won’t (can’t) hire you without going through them. Applying directly won’t help and it may hurt (because it could look like you don’t know you’ve already been submitted for the job).

        1. StudentA*

          That’s what I figured. I just didn’t know if it upped the odds of getting hired, or what. I did follow up with them, and still waiting. Thank you!

  145. Mimmy*

    No weekend free-for-all this week? It’s usually posted by 2:30 p.m. on Saturday’s I think. It’s okay if the schedule changed, I was just checking :)

  146. Billy*

    I was asked to apply for a job at a certain company through a relative ( she works in HR,but handles the client side) because they are hiring. The company deals mainly with payroll; the more I think about it, the more uncertainty I have to succeed in most of their positions.(sales,payroll,marketing etc) . Most of their positions require at least 2 years of experience which I do not have. I don’t know…If it means getting out of retail I’m all for it but at the same time I’m not sure if I would even qualify. It will also be my first office job.

    Putting together a resume is no problem. Applying for a payroll company with only 7 years of PT retail experience will not go very far.

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