open thread – December 4, 2015

by Alison Green on December 4, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,457 comments }

{ 1,457 comments… read them below }

  1. Nervous Accountant*

    Any accountants from Canada here? I’ve been waiting all week for this thread bc I’d really do need advice/input.

    I’m toying with the idea of moving to Canada (specifically Toronto) sometime in the future (as in….3-5 years). I don’t think this is the right place to talk about the non work factors, but career is a big one to take into consideration. (May save the non work stuff for the other open thread this weekend).

    To give a quick background–I’ve been working as a tax accountant in the US for a year now. I got a bachelor’s in a completely unrelated field but bc I started out with volunteer work, internships and ultimately obtained a professional license (Enrolled Agent), I got a job as a Tax Accountant. I enjoy what I do, and I consult clients all the time as part of my job and my license is currently active, so I have no desire to switch careers or fields. Prior to this, I had a string of volunteer/seasonal jobs with a spotty work history in between (pt/temp jobs that aren’t on my resume). This is the longest job I’ve had so far.

    Biggest question:
    What would I need to do in order to be able to continue my career in Toronto, in terms of education and training?

    Other questions that I understand might not be answered here, but would love a nudge in the right direction:
    What is work life like? I work 45 hours a week on a regular basis, and that goes up to 60 during tax season (January-April). What’s the standard there?

    I know absolutely 0 about taxes in Canada. Any forums/groups I could join to get more detailed information?

    Appreciate any and all information. Thanks!

    1. Ruby Tuesday*

      If you already have education and training in accounting – I think you’re safe.
      To move here – as an accountant, you should take a look at the Canadian Chartered Accountant site. They should give you a low down on everything. There are tax courses you can take here to get up to date with Canadian Tax Law.
      Work life is not terrible…it should be similar to what you experience now. My biggest peeve living here (in Toronto) is the commute…it is the absolute worst. I hate the time I lose while travelling to and from work.
      But other than…its a lovely city, with lovely people and if you do decide to move – do it in Winter – it kind of sets your expectations going forward.

        1. Talvi*

          I don’t know about that. U of T is one of the grad schools I’m applying to and I’m dreading the thought of Toronto summers waaaaay more than the winters. Of course, I also grew up in Edmonton, so while I can do the winter thing just fine (I’m in Vancouver right now and I miss Winter), it’s the summer humidity that I expect will get me if I do end up in Toronto.

          1. esra*

            It’s actually not too bad, since we’re on the water. Although UofT has that giant astroturf field now.

            Just hang out in Chinatown and drink cold tea all summer.

      2. JMegan*

        Yes, the commute is a bit ridiculous – apparently it’s comparable to what it is in LA, in terms of time spent getting to work and back. Public transit is decent, but capital and infrastructure expenditures are not keeping up with population growth, so I don’t expect it to be any better than “decent” for the near future.

        On the plus side, there are about eleventy million condos available downtown, so the commute time may not be an issue for you!

      3. Nervous Accountant*

        Thanks everyone for the feedback!

        I’m in NY, so I’m familiar with rough winters and long commutes. My current commute is 3 hours ra day (1.5 each way) via public transit..although I did get my license recently so hopefully I’ll be driving rather than taking the subway. so not a whole lot would change.

        1. esra*

          Come to lovely Bloor West Village and you can trim that commute down to 1.5 hours total. (Oooh, aaaah!)

          1. Felicia*

            That’s where I live Esra! But my commute is 30 minutes total (15 mins each way) because I live in Bloor West Village and work in south Etobicoke :)

            1. esra*

              Jealous! I work steps from St Andrew/Union. I just love the west end though. Cheese Boutique 4 life.

              1. Felicia*

                My next job will likely be in the St. Andrew/Union station area just because so many places I’d like to work have offices there. I currently work steps from Royal York station, and lucked into the ideal office location really.

                Is it weird I’ve never been to Cheese Boutique? I’ve only lived in this neighbourhood just over a year.

                1. esra*

                  It’s not just cheese! They have an amazing selection of jams, salsa, chocolate, pasta, cured meats… I love weird chocolate, they have one with potato chips in it, and another with pop rocks that are two of my faves. Their sweet chobai is fantastic, and they have this new house made black bread with espresso and chocolate in it.

                  Some of the best restaurants in the city get their cheese from the Boutique’s cheese cellar, which is open to the public and smells amazing and I want to live there.

                  Cheese.

    2. Anon.......*

      I’m not in Canada but, the firm I work for has Canadian member firm there are few tax jobs advertised at the moment (including an Toronto based US tax analyst) you might like to have a look at to see what professional memberships they require and then you can see if there is anyway of getting that body to recognise your current body and grant you membership, I know some overseas bodies will recognise my accreditation if I apply (and pay a small fortune).

      http://www.grantthornton.ca/careers/experienced/current-opportunities

    3. jhhj*

      You can get a CPA -> CA transfer, but you will need to take some reciprocity exams. (It will depend a bit on what state you’re in. Relevant link to follow.)

      Work life is pretty much the same, though the tax season usually starts a bit later and ends a bit later. Lots of companies have CPA/CAs to deal with dual citizenship etc, so it might well be easy to get a job.

    4. Book Person*

      Canada would love to have you, I’m sure! We’re a friendly bunch overall.

      As I understand it, the terminology is pretty different on tax stuff (TSFAs, RRSPs, and all that jazz), but broadly speaking I think the structure is similar? (Note, I am not an accountant, but I know an American accountant who helped me figure out my Canadian taxes despite the terminology difference.)

      I’d make a pitch for perhaps looking into a smaller city in Canada first, too, unless your heart is set on Toronto. Toronto has a very high cost of living, your salary would be in CDN $ which is a lot lower than US in practice, and with so many huge businesses and great universities in Toronto attracting a lot of applicants, competition might be steeper there than, say, in London or Hamilton. A lot of trained professionals move away from the Maritimes to Ontario, too, so Fredericton or Halifax may also be good starting places.

      1. jhhj*

        A place — like Toronto — with lots of Americans working who need to do two sets of taxes (and companies who work in both countries) might be very happy to hire someone with US tax experience.

        1. Book Person*

          Good point! I was coming from an academia perspective where you’re meant to hire Canadians first if they have the same qualifications. I imagine more than a few Canadians or dual citizens have brushed up on their American tax knowledge to make themselves attractive candidates as a result.

        2. Dynamic Beige*

          Yes, there is a need for people who have US tax experience. I would also like to point out right here that if you are a US citizen, the US is one of three countries in the world that does taxation based on citizenship, not residency — so you would be required to file your taxes with both the Canadian and US Governments. Odds are you won’t wind up paying anything to the US because taxes here are higher but it’s one more thing you have to do.

          I would suggest that if you’re considering moving, come for a visit first. Check out the price of rentals, the neighbourhoods etc. It is possible to live outside the city and commute in by train or car, lots of people do it. They are building a condo tower in my city right by the train station for the commuter set. I mean seriously, there is the train station on one side and a giant Walmart on the other. Whoever buys there won’t even need a car :P Which is actually good, because I have no idea where they would park them.

      2. Book Person*

        (not to say you aren’t a trained professional or couldn’t make it in Ontario, of course! I don’t know what the tax world is like in terms of hiring, but in academia, we [nominally] have a requirement to hire Canadian applicants first over American ones if all other things are equal [looking at you, U of Toronto]. That’s why I suggest places where there may be less competition from Canadian applicants. That advise may be completely off-base for this field, however).

    5. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’m not an accountant but I am in Canada (Toronto, in fact!) so I can tell you a bit about the labour laws. Not very many years ago there was a law passed which makes it difficult for employers here to force you to work more than 48 hours in a workweek. It’s not impossible, though. And for an accountant, I’d be willing to bet that you’d have to put in a good amount of overtime during the tax season … how the employer would handle that would be by paying you overtime or giving you time in lieu. There’s still that 48-hour rule but most companies find ways around it, I’ll be honest. Standard work weeks here are generally about 35-40 hours (normally you don’t get paid for lunch).

      Toronto is pretty awesome (I’m biased but still …) but I agree with Ruby Tuesday, the commute can sometimes be on the long side. I take public transit to work from the west end to the downtown corridor and I usually plan on an hour each way (but that’s my decision – I know people who both live and work downtown and they walk to work in ten minutes or less).

      The Canada Revenue Agency (Canada’s IRS) has a ton of information online re: taxes if it’s something you’d like to take a look at before you make your decision. Their website is fairly comprehensive.

      1. Felicia*

        I’m in Toronto too, hi! I also think Toronto is awesome, but I live and work in the west end.

        In addition to that although you don’t have to worry about things like paying to go to the doctor or hospital in Canada, there are things that are not covered by OHIP (which is the provincial health insurance programs, but colloquially, Canadians tend not to think of it or refer to is as insurance) . So for things like going to the dentist, or the eye doctor, or getting perscriptions, or supplemental things like chiropractors , massage, physiotherapist, etc., you’re still going to want and need supplemental insurance which you’re likely going to get in pretty much any office job, but the quality varies. So knowing that that’s a thing, it’ll be something you want to evaluate when choosing a job offer. Also there are laws about how much vacation you have to get at a federal level, which as I understand it is not a thing in the US. A lot of “Is it legal?” questions here, the answer for the US would usually be yes, it is, but in Canada for the most part, the answer to those same questions is actually “no, it’s not”.

        The cost of living in Toronto is higher than a lot of the country, but I love it , and there are neighbourhoods that aren’t quite as expensive but still nice/transit accessible, but compared to NY it should be fairly comfortable for you in terms of you being used to that sort of thing.

    6. Pixel*

      In Canada and and accountant (not in Toronto, though, but 2 out of 3 ain’t bad).
      I had US CPA colleagues who transitioned to Canadian CA, I’m sure the rules are similar with the recent re-structuring of Canadian CPA. http://www.cpaontario.ca/ has all the info.

      I have found this site incredibly helpful with “Cliff Notes” on Canadian tax. As a very first starting point, look through the CRA website and study the T1, T2, T4 and T5 forms just to get a general idea, and also read the section on GST/HST/PST.

      As for work/life balance, I’m lucky enough to live in a place where leisure/family time is almost sacred. I work 37.5 hour weeks plus lunch breaks, other offices have 8 or 8.5 hour days with Fridays off during the summer, or an option for a half-day off every two weeks. February, March and May are quite busy, April is insane, June is slightly less insane but still very intense with many December year-ends that need to be filed by June 30, and the filing deadline for self-employed taxpayers on June 15. June 30 is a tough day but July 1 we sleep in, have a BBQ and go see the fireworks. We don’t have Target here, though :-(

    7. Pixel*

      In Canada, and an accountant, although not in Toronto (2 out of 3 is reasonable!)

      CPA Ontario has already been mentioned as a resource of information on transitioning between US and Canadian CPA. As for resources, http://www.htkconsulting.com/ is a treasure trove of Cliff Notes and it helped me tremendously while completing my course work (I’m only missing a few months of professional experience to earn my CPA). Also, if you start at the CRA website you will find plenty of information. I would start with looking up T1, T2, T4 and T5 forms to get acquainted with the terminology, as well as GST/HST/PST. It actually has quite a bit of information.

      As for work-life balance, I’m glad to be living in an area where leisure time is a serious thing. I work 37.5 hour week, other offices work 40-44 hours/week but offer free Friday during the summer or half a day off every other Friday. It depends on the individual office, of course, but I found small offices offer a more relaxed environment.

      I’m also a newer convert to accounting, with an M.Sc in an unrelated field and several temporary/part-time/contract jobs that were tangentially related to my original field. I transitioned to accounting a few years ago and it’s been a great fit for me. Glad to hear others have had this experience as well.

  2. AVP*

    Hey, was there ever any confirmation that BLS will raise the overtime threshold for 2016? I can’t find any information on that online dated past this summer, and now I’m doing budgets for next year and it seems like something we, like, should probably plan for.

    1. pandq*

      I’ve been paying attention to this as well to inform budgets – I found one article that says the business community that is worried about the cost has been able to lobby and get the effective date to July of 2016. Sorry, I didn’t save the link. I hope someone with more knowledge will weigh in on this. I have a few nonprofit clients that love to have exempt employees way below the proposed threshold.

      1. AVP*

        Interesting. It will only be a difference of ~$10K for me to make that change so I’m planning as if it will happen in January, but it would be great if they put out a clearer directive!

        1. OfficePrincess*

          The difference for me would be about 10K as well, but I really don’t know which way my company would go. I’m hoping the headache of trying to track all the questions I field from home and times where I leave, come back, leave, log back in from home, etc.

    2. fposte*

      It’s not confirmed yet. There was the discussion period, which is over, and then they, I don’t know, think about it for a while? It was anticipated that any announcement would happen in 2016, last I looked.

      I’m wondering if the utter lack of impact of this proposal is because it’s really not likely to be enacted–if it is, a lot of people are going to be really thrown.

    4. BabyAttorney*

      The process takes a long time. No final rule has been published and there is usually always several months lead time before it goes into effect. I highly doubt it will have an effective date of 1/1/2016, even if the final rule was published tomorrow. (Not particularly likely.)

    5. ILurkaLot*

      No confirmation, but I was curious about this earlier this week – here’s the (sort of) recent articles I found helpful:
      http://hrprofessionalsmagazine.com/flsa-regulations-changes-are-on-the-way/
      http://www.yourerc.com/blog/post/questions-answered-about-the-proposed-flsa-overtime-rule-change.aspx
      http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f2749f9b-0b8b-4fd0-88fc-322bcdd7cbb7

      Basically, not happening as soon as we might’ve originally thought – probably won’t be in effect until late 2016, at the earliest.

    6. Retail Lifer*

      Looking for updates on this as well. I work in a mall with 150+ stores and that will affect almost 100% of the store management in the mall. There are a couple hundred of us in this building alone that will have vastly different lives once this passes (we’re normally expected to work a ton of hours as exempt employees but most retailers forbid overtime so I have no idea how anyone will handle this).

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I’ve been non-exempt my whole working life, and most companies I’ve been with don’t encourage any overtime for non-exempt workers. In a couple of places, we had to get permission to work overtime (or it had to be something our manager instigated). My guess is that no one will get any, to avoid paying it. But it will be interesting to see what happens.

        1. Retail Lifer*

          Almost every retailer is used to taking advantage of the free extra labor their salaried managers give them, and almost all of them make way below the proposed new threshold. This will definitely be interesting.

          1. AVP*

            This is why I’m curious – it’s possible that some employers will just say “no overtime!” but companies will have to make up that work somehow. Either by hiring more people (potentially more expensive) or by pushing it onto people above the threshold, and possibly raising some salaries above the threshold so they can do that.

            But it’s also possible that the eventual rule will be very complicated and watered down! Who knows…

      2. Angela*

        I’m not in retail, but it’s the same here with literally one exempt person (our GM) who won’t be affected. I think the exempt here think that their salary will get broken down to an hourly rate equivalent (so $30k, would be about $14.42/hr) and then come out ahead because their 45-50 hour weeks will now have OT, but I suspect that a much more likely scenario will be that they adjust the hourly rate down so that they still end up at $30k per year with their OT factored in. Closer to $12.15/hr if my math is right for my example.

    8. louise*

      Here’s a headline from a SHRM article posted yesterday:
      DOL’s Final Overtime Rule Expected in Latter Half of 2016 – Conflicting estimates on when to expect the final rule.

      And an excerpt from that article:
      The Obama administration has indicated the U.S. Department of Labor’s (DOL’s) highly
      controversial rule that will expand the number of workers who are eligible for overtime pay—by
      changing many currently exempt workers’ status to nonexempt—will not be issued before July 2016.
      According to the Fall 2015 Unified Agenda and Regulatory Plan
      (http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201510&RIN=1235AA11),
      published on Nov. 20 by the Office of Management and Budget, the earliest the final rule could be
      released would be in July, but DOL officials have indicated that the rule is likely to be issued
      sometime closer to the end of the year while still leaving time for the rule to take effect before the
      president leaves office.

      I’d post a link to the entire article, but I believe it has members-only access.

      2. asteramella*

        Keep in mind that typically final rules allow 60 days between publication of the rule and effective date.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Does anyone in a position to opine have an opinion on whether this will actually happen? Some of the coverage is very “when this happens…” with no discussion of how likely it is to actually go into effect. Anyone know?

        1. Theresa T*

          I’m not in a position myself, but I do work with a lot of lobbyists for an industry that would be very affected by this, and their focus has been on mitigating terms: slightly lower salary threshold over a longer period of time, accommodating for the fact that a salary in NYC doesn’t mean the same thing as a salary in rural Kansas, redefining the duties test for the white collar exemption, etc. so my guess is if the lobbyists have given up on the idea that this will never go into effect, we’ll probably see it happen (just maybe not in its current form, and depending on those changes, it still might not make much of a difference from the status quo.)

        3. louise*

          Alison, I’ll email you the name of an employment attorney out of Kansas City who spoke at a local SHRM meeting I attended in August. We all asked point blank “So do you think this will happen?” At that point in time, he said he had no doubt it would. He would be an excellent resource for an interview or guest post.

      4. onyxzinnia*

        While I would appreciate the opportunity to strong arm my employer into giving me a nice raise to avoid paying me overtime, I am admittedly a little worried about this passing.

        Does anyone know if the change from exempt to nonexempt will affect an employee’s eligibility for things like healthcare benefits and 401k plans? While I don’t think they would take away my current plan, I am concerned becoming nonexempt would make me ineligible to enroll next year.

        1. Observer*

          There is nothing in the regulations that would require that. And taking away benefits from non-exempt employees is not likely to work out well. Health, especially since there a some regulations that govern who needs to be offered health benefits and the penalties for companies that don’t.

  3. Giving Tuesday & End of Year Giving*

    I’m going to ask you to hold this for the weekend non-work open thread since it’s not strictly work-related. Thank you!

  4. Dawn*

    Happy Friday! Friendly encouragement to everyone to remember that it’ll get better, if it’s bad it’ll change, you’ll find another job, and everything’s going to be great!  Happened to me and can happen to anyone!

    2. Lizzy*

      I am coping with a job layoff from last month and find your words very encouraging. Thank you for this!

      1. Dawn*

        Dude I got laid off last August and it rocked my world- totally ROCKED my world. I was devastated. Convinced that I’d never get another job, I’d never find anywhere as great as where I was, etc etc etc.

        Well lookit me here a year and some change later, I’m in a good job doing what I want to do and things are great! Yeah it took time, took a lot of time in fact, but I came out the other side and am better for it.

        Keep on keepin’ on is tough, it’s T-O-U-G-H, ain’t gonna lie and anyone who says differently is selling something. But it’s always, always worth it to keep on keepin’ on.

        1. Bailey Quarters*

          Dawn, you are so right! Losing my job felt devastating to me too, but I found another one and, better yet, I’ve ended up in a perfect job that I woul not have gotten without having lost the first one. True story.

  5. AmyNYC*

    I’m leaving my current company of about 30 people and joining a huge one of 300 people (in the NYC office, they’re 3000+ worldwide)
    All my experience has been small companies – does anyone have advice for transitioning to a larger one or general advice for working at a large company?

    1. Kyrielle*

      I have never been in a company that small, but I recently transitioned from one that was around 250-300 people to one that’s 5000+ people and international. Mostly, I just paid attention to the culture, the processes, and my team, and that seemed to work pretty well. I don’t know if the same would apply moving from 30 to 300, though – that’s almost more of a difference from 300 (already large enough to be rather “corporate”) to 5000.

    2. Lucky*

      I’ve got this, as I’ve recently made a similar transition. It takes a long time to meet people, which is especially important for me as an in-house attorney here at big job. I’ve found that I have to get used to introducing myself to “new” people even months into the job, because there are so many people here. So, try to be more outgoing than normal – in the hallway, in the lunch room, etc. I often found myself taking notes when I got back to my office like “tall blond bangs = Jane Doe, marketing”.

      Also, ask reception if they have a map of the office show who sits where. My office doesn’t, and I still have to wander around to find new people.

      1. GOG11*

        This. At my job, we’re not huge, but we’re on a campus with quite a few buildings so it’s rare for staff in one “division” to get together much less across divisions or the company as a whole. We have an all-staff meeting once a year in an auditorium so it’s hard to know who is who there, but I try to be extra outgoing there. Also, this is my fourth year here and I’m still meeting people in accounting, president’s office, etc., who I usually talk with over the phone and email. I make sure to introduce myself and let them know that it’s nice to finally put a face with a name.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Same exact thing here. I’ve been at my current job for nearly three years, and there are still people on my floor whose names I don’t know, and I sometimes see people I’ve never seen (they do move people around and hire contractors a lot). Say hi to people and ask their name.

          I would also add that bigger companies have a LOT of processes smaller ones don’t–for example, you may have to requisition something formally, where at OldJob, you just shot an email to Bob and asked if you could order a new stapler. But they will usually let you know all that.

      2. SJ in PA*

        I should have taken notes on physical appearance and names when I started at my job. I was introduced to people during my first week who I didn’t see again for a month or more, and I’d totally forgotten who they were by the time I met them again.

      3. Beth Anne*

        I feel like this is a good time of year for this as many companies have company wide christmas parties. I remember I worked for one large company and started in March…in December at the christmas party I was still meeting people.

    3. asl*

      Since you’re going from a place where everyone knows who you are to a place where you won’t know most of the staff, make friends/allies in the other departments that you need to work with! My post-its of phone numbers in different sections of my org are a lifesaver when I need a quick question answered, or help with something. It’s so much faster to just call up the person you know than to send a request through the formal process into the void.

      Congrats on your new job :)

      1. Jules the First*

        Key to making this transition is to make at least one personal contact in each department (so you have somewhere to start when you need something) and not being afraid to ask people to remind you who they are…because I’m a redhead and one of the few people who work cross-department, most people know who I am, but forget that I haven’t the faintest who they are. Also – make nice with reception, because they’ll be invaluable in learning who everyone is and where they sit.

    4. AnotherHRPro*

      One of the biggest things to me was going from an organization where you knew everyone to one where you will never know everyone. To get things done, you need to know who to connect with. Ask people for help. Having trouble getting something through legal? As a colleague who has been there for awhile for a contact. Leverage other peoples’ networks.

      Also, all of the cultural norms. Don’t assume that how things were done in your small company will transfer over. Things at larger companies tend to move slower and have more bureaucracy.

      1. Jez*

        This is going to sound snippy, and I’m so not intending it to be, but here goes:

        As someone who is in-house legal for an org of about 40K, please do not just “ask for a contact” in legal if you need help getting something through. If you’ve got something in process with legal, stick with the contact you are given! Assignments within legal at a large organization are generally made with very specific issues in mind (business unit expertise, workload timing, conflicts of interest, etc.) and asking for another contact is really just creating an unnecessary to-do list item for that person. On behalf of your legal department – we are working on it!

    5. LQ*

      I never really had the choice to make “work friends” before though the place I came from was closer to 3 than 30. I’ve gone to a place that is a division of about 300 within an org of thousands within a bigger org of more thousands.

      I’ve tried to cultivate the “work friends” or very collegial colleagues relationships both in my division and across other divisions with people I who do similarish jobs. So when I go to a meeting for SharePoint I may meet people who do things that are like what I do except in different divisions or departments. These relationships are something I would have never thought about but they make a ton of difference. They will also be key if I ever want to transfer out of here.

      Transfer is another thing that came as a shock to me. It is incredibly common for people to transfer around within my bigger org, it’s still a job interview but different, and often much easier to get. And the Big Org is very happy about it, so they strongly support you interviewing with other departments and moving around laterally or slightly vertically to another place.

    6. periwinkle*

      My last two jobs were at single-location companies with 13 employees and 30+ employees. My current position is with a company that has over 150,000 employees in multiple regions; my region has multiple campuses and my campus has multiple buildings. The IT department alone is bigger than many Fortune 500 companies.

      The most important thing I learned about working here is the power of networking. I can’t just walk over to Finance or IT to talk with someone because they’re in a different building, campus, or state. Build a good relationship with a few people who have been around a while. One big advantage with our extra-huge company is that a lot of people have spent most of their working life here and quite a lot of them have had multiple careers within the company. I know some people who know lots of people who know other people. If I don’t know who to contact, I hit up my well-connected colleagues… it’s very Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon around here. Even a classic shy introvert like me can build up a solid network with a little effort.

    7. Jake*

      I went from 50,000 to 90 and what I saw is big companies have more support staff, meaning I went from being a field engineer to being the field engineer, accounting clerk, submittal clerk, project manager and office engineer all at once.

      In the big company I was expected to be the subject matter expert and use my coworkers to handle a lot of the support functions. In the small company it is do whatever it takes to survive, meaning my knowledge base is much wider, but much shallower.

  6. Applesauced*

    Kind of just venting here – the office manager sent around a poll to find the best date for our Holiday party. One option was the day before a big deadline (our team is typically in the office until 10 or 11 on deadline eves) and I made note of that in my response. Ultimately, that’s the day that was chosen.
    I understand that no date will work for everyone, but if a whole team (3 people in a 25 person office) can’t go to a WORK party due to a WORK commitment, don’t you think that should be considered differently than just someone having other plans?

    1. Laurel Gray*

      Yes, I do. The last time I planned a holiday party, we were a team of about 25, everyone allowed a +1. Because that only comes down to 50 people, we did our festivities at a local bar/restaurant where we ordered trays of apps and had a tab for unlimited drinks. Some of the consultants traveled internationally and some people had family travel so around October, I would send an email to the entire staff and throw out random December dates and ask for them to reply back with any conflicting dates. I would finalize the dates in early to mid November and book the spot. Everyone ends up attending. Fun times are had by all. 3 out of 25 is 12% of the staff, that may not seem like a big deal to the people planning it but the absence of an entire team at a company event can seem strange.

    3. Dawn*

      Yeha that’s tone deaf as all hell. Maybe go back to HR and point out that you three will have to totally miss the party do to, you know, WORK, and see if you can’t get the hook up with something cool like at least free food while you’re working that night?

    4. themmases*

      Yeah, that is pretty rude. This is the kind of thing that leads to teams having their own separate celebration, which (unless you work in a huge organization where even the departments are quite large) is pretty much the opposite of the goal of a company holiday party.

    5. pieces of flair*

      Yeah, that sucks. Maybe the organizer misunderstood and didn’t realize your department would actually be unable to attend because of the deadline, but just thought it would be less than ideal?

    6. Lizzy May*

      That’s awful and really demoralizing. It would probably be pretty hard to have the date changed now, but I’d still speak up again just so the office manager understands how her choice will impact your team and to avoid it happening in the future. And then, I’d make sure the team ordered amazing food that night to eat while your working towards that deadline.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I agree. I would send back and email and say that your entire team will be unable to attend. Maybe she already understands, or maybe she just needs to see it spelled out.

    7. F.*

      While not an ideal replacement for the holiday party, how about suggesting a nice, company-paid, catered supper in the office that day for your team?

    8. Lily in NYC*

      It’s not very nice of them. My office tends to do whatever works for the president’s office and the rest of us just have to make do (although I would be thrilled to have an excuse to miss our holiday party because we are going ice-skating. Outside. In NY. In December).

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        At a previous job, nothing had been said about the Christmas party until early December when a lot of people had booked flights/made travel plans. (It was something like Friday 18th December so you get the idea). There was even a group of 8 people who were on an external training programme who could not attend!

        Apparently, it was not a good evening as the venue and food were terrible.

  7. Sascha*

    Poll: What do you think is the more unprofessional behavior on the part of a candidate: cancelling an interview at the last minute (received the email on hour before interview time), or making everyone sit through an interview for a job you know you don’t want, because the salary is too low?

    Happened to me yesterday, me and the other hiring committee members are divided. I’m curious to hear others’ thoughts.

    1. Mike*

      I’d prefer the candidate cancelling. While both are unprofessional, at least I get an hour back on my schedule. Don’t be unprofessional AND waste our time.

    2. Cambridge Comma*

      I’d be grateful if someone didn’t waste my time. But they should have called rather than mailed for such a last-minute cancellation.

    3. Mimmy*

      I’d say canceling at the last minute, but just by a hair. I figure the candidate who went through the interview in the (probably unlikely) event that there will be something about the job that will allow the candidate to consider moving ahead despite the pay being lower than they want.

    4. Kyrielle*

      Neither is good; ideally the cancellation would be far more than an hour in advance. The only advantage to sitting through an unnecessary interview, though, would be that the people you would be meeting with might *never know*. I mean, the candidate could go, waste their time and everyone else’s, and unless they were made an offer and felt the need to say why they were turning it down or make it obvious, no one would ever realize the time was wasted except the candidate.

      On the other hand, imagine you interview the candidate, LOVE them, make the offer, and discover their salary expectation is so far out of scope that there never was a chance to come to terms. How in that case do you feel about the time spent?

      The advantage to calling off – even an hour in advance – is that the people who would have been interviewing can use that time to *get other work done*. More notice would be more courteous (unless they’d just learned the salary range for the position when they canceled), but…I still think I lean toward canceling being kinder. Going and never letting the issue surface is probably going to give the candidate a better image, but it’s not as kind.

    5. mskyle*

      I do wonder why it had to be a last-minute cancellation? Did the candidate get information about salary or duties shortly before the interview and they had to make a decision on the spot? I think cancelling is always better than going through with an interview for a job you’re no longer interested in, but obviously the sooner you can cancel, the better.

      1. Sascha*

        The salary was posted on the job listing, and the hiring manager always mentions in the interview invitation that the salary is set, so that we can let people self-select out before setting up an interview. I think this might have been a case where the candidate thought it would be okay, but the more she thought about it, the less okay it was.

    6. Sarah*

      Wasting people’s time is generally worse…so the cancellation is the more professional move, even though sitting through the interview may *seem* more professional to the interviewers. Of course, the cancellation should have come earlier, but we don’t know the circumstances. For first-round interviews for entry-level or mid-level positions, I wouldn’t really bat an eye over a last minute cancellation here and there. If this is a senior position or a second-round interview, I would be more miffed.

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think it depends on the circumstances, but if I had to pick, I’d say cancelling is potentially more excusable. It really depends on how they handle it. The cancellation could be handled very well, if you call as soon as you realize you have been unavoidably delayed by factors completely beyond your control or prediction. The other thing…well, I could see giving it a shot, seeing if they had more flexibility in salary, but that’s more of a reach, IMO.

    8. Lizzy May*

      I’d prefer cancelling. An unplanned hour is still more useful than sitting for an hour in an interview that won’t go anywhere. Neither is great, but with an hour I can answer emails or power through a few small tasks.

    9. Lizzy*

      A last minute cancellation can be annoying initially, but the silver lining is that it allows you to reallocate your time elsewhere. The interview with the begrudging job candidate not only takes away from your time, but it I think the bad taste it leaves lingers longer.

    10. Sascha - Edited to Add*

      Thanks everyone! More details: The salary was posted up front, and the hiring manager who extended the invitation reiterated in the invite that the salary was fixed (public university, not much room for negotiation, especially for lower level positions). It is a lower level, almost-entry level IT position. I think this was just a case of someone who, the closer it came to interview time, realized the salary wouldn’t work for her after all.

      I myself prefer the cancellation at the last minute, at least I get that hour back, as others have said. I was just curious what other people thought, as others on my hiring team flipped their lids that someone would cancel at the last minute. While neither is that great of a thing to do, I think it’s just part of hiring…life goes on.

      1. Minion*

        I’m curious to know how you’d feel about that particular applicant applying for a different position later that may be in line with their salary requirements. Would you go through with another interview or would you remember the last-minute cancellation and nix the interview altogether?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It depends on how it was done. A brusque cancellation with no acknowledgement of the inconvenience? I’d remember that, sure. But I’d have no problem with, “I’m so sorry about this because I realize it’s last-minute, but I’ve been thinking about the salary and finally concluded I just wouldn’t be able to make it work. I really wanted to because I love what y’all are doing, but I don’t want to waste your time.”

    11. Brett*

      I’ve actually learned a heck of a lot from interviewing someone whose salary requirements were too high (though really well qualified). Made me refine my interview style to hone in on highly qualified candidates, and how to talk about non-compensation benefits of a position. Also was useful in making the point to reclassify the position after we had to drop down to our fourth choice to hire anyone (and they left in less than a year).
      I am not bothered that much by cancellations either, but I have to drive in 35 minutes each way to our personnel department for interviews (and have to get there at least 30 minutes early for HR briefing), so I’m going to waste more than an hour that way too.

    12. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Good god, definitely worse to take up people’s time if you’re sure you wouldn’t take the job. I’m fine with someone canceling an hour beforehand if it saves me an unnecessary interview.

    13. pieces of flair*

      I would absolutely prefer the cancellation, though it would obviously have been better to cancel earlier.

    14. Red Wheel*

      I think wasting everyone’s time would be more objectionable ( by sitting through an interview for an unwanted job), but I don’t get why the hiring committee is pondering the candidate’s unprofessionalism. It is what it is. Move on.

    15. Tomato Frog*

      Basically, the candidate has the option to lie to you and waste your time, but save their own face; or be considerate of your time while potentially looking bad to others. I don’t feel they should be judged for taking the latter option (but hopefully they were appropriately apologetic).

    16. Felicia*

      I think the sitting through an interview is worse just because it’s actually wasting peoples’ time, but the cancelling would actually be viewed by me as more unprofessional because i would have no way of knowing the person sitting through the interview was wasting my time (not like they’d tell me), so I wouldn’t actually know they were doing something bad in that case.

      1. Windchime*

        I’m just confused by the comments about canceling an interview being unprofessional. An interview is just another business appointment and it’s not crazy or unusual for those to be cancelled. I think a polite, apologetic cancellation is just fine and it sure wouldn’t burn any bridges with me if the wording/tone was similar to what Alison said. I’d much rather have a cancellation than sit with an unqualified, apathetic, or uninterested candidate.

    17. Lia*

      Making everyone sit through the interview.

      We are required to interview a certain number of candidates for jobs, and sometimes we are splitting hairs between candidates. If you know that the jobs isn’t for you, don’t take an interview slot. Worse, those ones who know they won’t take it are often highly qualified, and we might wind up making an offer to them and by the time we can offer to someone else if they decline, we might lose that second choice person (this is academia, where search processes can drag on for eternities, and we lose candidates due to this with some regularity).

      1. Honeybee*

        You’re probably already aware of the myriad of problems that encourage this behavior. When I was a doctoral student, my advisors encouraged me that if there was even like a 10% chance that I might take a job as a nuclear option, I should follow the interview process through. I’ve followed academic forums like the CHE ones and candidates there often get berated by fellow academics for refusing to interview in places they know they don’t want to live or work for a variety of reasons. People say things like “This may be the only interview you ever get. IN YOUR LIFE.” The culture is very much “you should fall down on your knees and thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster if anyone so much as hints they may want to hire you.”

        With that kind of pressure, sometimes it’s difficult for students and postdocs to turn down interviews even for places they don’t want to work; they often trick themselves into believing that they could actually consider a location or university or setting. Then after the offer comes through, it becomes more concrete, and the “oh shit” moment happens.

        1. So Very Anonymous*

          This is so true about academia. The market is so bad that you feel like you HAVE to take whatever job is offered, and then once you do, it’s so much harder to get out then if you need to.

    18. Jake*

      Id prefer the cancel by a mile.

      My time is valuable, and the cancellation respects that more than just going through the motions

    19. Student*

      What exactly is the point of sitting through an interview that will 100% certainly not result in someone taking the job?

      One doesn’t sit through an interview out of politeness – you’re not attending your spouse’s favorite opera. You’re performing a business function first and foremost. Being rude is undesirable social behavior, but it has very little impact on all concerned when you have no intention or interest in maintaining any sort of relationship with someone, as in this case. It was much more practical and respectful of the business’s resources to cancel at the last minute than to continue.

    20. Blurgle*

      Making them sit though the interview.

      I can off the top of my head think of a good half dozen reasons why someone might cancel on an hour’s notice. The most obvious is that they accepted an offer tendered an hour and a half ago, but there’s also illness, transportation issues (e.g. weather delays), a previous interview running longer than scheduled, or the candidate learning something about the company or job that they didn’t like. For the last I might not admit that, and might instead give another excuse – such as “the pay’s too low”.

  8. Windchime*

    Please hold for the weekend open-thread since it’s not work-related. I think the holiday threw everyone off!

  9. Carrie in Scotland*

    I got snarked at by a member of teacher staff today about not handing them re-submissions. The thing is, about a month ago I’d asked them “oh this assignment is something totally different to these, what do I do with it?” and the response was “keep it”. Sigh.

    OTOH, I applied for a job back in home city and am part way through a second one. So there’s that, I suppose.

  10. Bekx*

    Just a rant about politics in the office, and employee surveys. So my company is really dependent on certain political issues. I manage the intranet and newsletter, and I’ve had one of the VPs email me to post things about political issues. Usually this hasn’t been too bad. Like, “Get this bumper sticker to promote harvesting Cinnamon and Apples for our Fall Tea customers.” During the latest election in November another Executive asked me to post things about the issues on the ballet. They also sent out a company email on the subject. This was a bit more invasive, but they basically said things like “Here’s what the Teapots Association has to say about these issues. My personal opinions and the company’s tend to agree with Teapots Associations views for the most part.” and then some really simple explanations of the issues were attached. It was definitely aligned to a particular “Vote yes, vote no” thing and it made me uncomfortable (I’m independent, politically), but it wasn’t too bad.

    Today I was asked to post something that’s really over the top political. It was an opinion piece by a Senator or something, and it was really ridiculous. This post isn’t about the political issues themselves, so I don’t want to go off into a tangent about it, but a few people read the article and went wtf. The exec also wanted me to send them reports on how many people clicked on the link, viewed the article, etc.

    This is just making me all sorts of uncomfortable and I’m concerned with next year’s election. I post it because I do what I’m told, but I don’t exactly like having this culture. We do employee surveys every year and I’m tempted to post something on our survey. It’s done by a 3rd party (IBM) and HR also stresses that it’s anonymous. There’s only 3 of us to my direct manager, so since it’s less than 4 it gets rolled up into her manager. I believe it’s also rolled up depending on age group and gender, too.

    Part of me wonders if it’s even worth commenting about. They say that they take this stuff seriously, and I know we have meetings about the surveys. It’s really only two executives that are doing this and I am hoping that maybe if I say something they’ll think twice about how it comes off.

    Has anyone had any experience with this? Or any way I can phrase it so it won’t raise pitchforks (I don’t think it will, but who knows!). I like my company a lot and this is just one thing that just feels icky to me.

    1. Case of the Mondays*

      I think you should talk to them directly and say something like “I know that our organization relies heavily on political support and that elections are critical to our well being. I’ve found though, we get more support and better response when we post things that are more factual than ranty. We have people that support us that aren’t necessarily on the same political side as us and we don’t want to alienate them either. In particular, I’ve received negative feedback about Senator piece but positive feedback about Fact Sheet. We should keep this in mind for our future postings.

      Then, when they give you another rant you can say something like “this is the type of thing I was talking about when I said we should probably not post X. If you still want me to post it, I will but I don’t think we will have as positive a response than if we posted Y.

      If you are their social media person they didn’t hire you just to hit “post.” They want your feedback on what gets positive publicity and what gets negative publicity. What gets you SEO, etc. Not all attention is good attention when you rely on votes. I’m sure you have studies to back that up.

      1. Bekx*

        I should clarify- this is all internal. Nothing gets seen on the external side about this. We do post some industry news like “Tea bag pricing is at a low thanks to extra funding!” on social media but everything else is completely internal.

        You’re right about speaking directly to them. I guess I’m hesitant since I haven’t been here long, and I’m low on the totem pole.

    2. Brett*

      “The exec also wanted me to send them reports on how many people clicked on the link, viewed the article, etc.”
      That is the part that squicks me out. This is shaving far too close to investigating _who_ read the article (which is very easy to do with most intranets). It is already a general political litmus test for the office to get those stats; what if it turns into a litmus test of personal politics?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Just because they clicked on it does not mean they read it. Just because they read it does not mean they agree with it. Just because they say they agree with it only proves they don’t like the lines at unemployment. sigh.

        Why not ask your boss what his goal is here? Or perhaps you can figure it out on your own. Then see if you can find a more transparent/above board way to get to that goal, approach the boss with your idea. Be patient with yourself if an idea does not immediately occur to you.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Whoops. wanted to say: Let’s suppose he wants people’s opinions on wtf’ery. Maybe you can suggest rather than just sending the article send an email asking them, “How do you think people in your life would react to this?” OR “What is your reaction to this?”

      2. BuildMeUp*

        It’s possible that it will turn into that, but checking the clicks/stats for a newsletter is pretty common! They could easily be focused on what types of material get the most clicks or what topics employees are most interested in hearing about.

        1. Brett*

          And that would make sense if they did that regularly, but from what Bekx wrote it sounds like this was a specific unusual request from the execs for this specific article.

          1. Bekx*

            Yes, it was a really strange and out there request. My reply was basically “Well, 10 people have accessed the page but I can’t tell you for sure if they read the article or not. They might have been looking at another article on that page.”

            1. BuildMeUp*

              That is strange if it’s the first time he’s requested it. Maybe you could use that to your advantage? If you check the stats for other things and it turns out that the over-the-top thing generated lower interest, you could mention that his request led you to look at other recent stats, and it looks like employees are more likely to click if you post about X and Y instead of the ridiculous thing.

      3. AllieJ0516*

        Ooooo, this one really burns my tush. Here in FL, there was a VIPa (very important pompous a$$) who employs thousands of people who actually threatened that he would have to fire staff if Obama got re-elected. Earlier he had the NERVE to survey his entire staff – if they leaned right, he encouraged them to register and get out and vote – if they leaned left, he did nothing. Total ridiculousness. POLITICS HAS NO BUSINESS IN BUSINESS. It alienates co-workers, customers, potential customers. Everyone is entitled to make their own choices, and not have to be judged based on those choices. If it continues to offend, can it be taken to HR? I know you say it’s at the direction of VPs, but surely they have to follow workplace rules like everyone else…

    3. animaniactoo*

      I’m new around here, but I would tend to say that the approach you want here is that you would like to clarify what kinds of things you can be asked to put into the newsletter or on the intranet by who.

      Because if there is an agreed company stance by the upper management on those issues, then yes, it’s legit to ask you to put those items in. However, if it’s one or 2 people who think everybody should see this and agree with it/get on board with it and are asking to have it distributed without consulting the rest of their management level and above on that, then it represents *their* stance and not the company’s. Which goes against the setup of using a wider company resource to spread it around. In those circumstances, e-mailing it around personally is the appropriate message delivery.

      I would feel free to note that you are concerned that political items are potential landmines and you think it is better to make sure that such pieces are agreed to represent the company’s views on the matter, and that this particular distribution is a good thing for the company to do.

      Basically, you’re just flagging this as something that you feel may be an issue, and you want them to consider and clarify as this is something that you haven’t been asked to do (this way) before. What they do with it after that is up to them. But personally (to answer the rant question portion of your post lol) I think it’s self-destructive to use company resources this way for anything that is not a major issue for the company that people should be aware of because it might affect the company in some way. And even then, it should be a personally written piece that says “This is why this is an issue for our company.”, not a repost of something somebody else wrote.

      1. Bekx*

        The company is owned by one person, and then there’s people below him that are execs. The owner sent me the voting stuff. Presumably, the other exec sent the article to the owner (Wakeen) for approval. I’m way too far down on the totem pole to ask if Wakeen approved it before posting. I think that would be very out of touch in my company, unfortunately.

        I completely agree with you, here, and I think that’s what makes it so icky to me. When I told my boss about this, and she rolled her eyes and expressed her disdain for it. She’s actually the one who told me that it can get bad around the election season. They don’t outright tell you how to vote, but it’s pretty obvious who they want you voting for.

        I think why I was leaning towards the employee survey was because it could potentially be coming from anyone in the company. Not just the person in charge of publishing this stuff.

  11. The Cosmic Avenger*

    Ugh. That offer that I was told to expect? Hiring has been suspended because of the game of chicken that Congress is playing with the budget. >:|

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      [The Cosmic Avenger falls to his knees, raises his eyes and his fists to the sky, and cries “NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!”]

    5. Anxa*

      I lost two short-term jobs offers due to state politics and one internship stalled due to a hiring freeze that didn’t thaw ’til I left the state.

      It’s…..frustrating.

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Thanks everyone…at least there is a decent chance that there will be a new Continuing Resolution by next Friday.

  12. Folklorist*

    Anti-Procrastination Post!! What have you been putting off post-Turkey-Day?

    Here’s your reminder to do it. Just one little thing. (Then maybe another). Then come back here and brag to us in the comments, basking in the warm radiance of having Gotten S&*$ Done.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I have one final paper to write to get my degree. I pushed through all my classes and other papers, but now that I know this is the last task, I’m really having a hard time getting started. I have until the end of January, but if I did it, I’d be done, all done. Ugh.

      1. Christy*

        OMG you can do it!! Go start right now! I’ll even build my table and stop procrastinating by reading this thread if that will help you. I’m so excited for you–I remember completing my degree and it was the absolute best feeling.

      2. Folklorist*

        DO IT, DO IT, DO IT! I’ll join AndersonDarling by returning a weird email that I can’t figure out and transcribing two interviews if you start that paper now! (Actually, I’ll do those things today anyway; I’ve been putting them off too long–but know that you’re in good company!)

        1. Folklorist*

          Oops, and I looked at the wrong thing. I meant I’ll join Christy in joining you. ::Ducking out to go do stuff now::

      3. Amy M*

        Baby steps! My husband is in the same boat, he has one paper/project left to complete his masters degree, and I found him in the living room the other day (when he should have been working on his paper) just walking in circles kicking his feet out. I asked him what he was doing and he said he was avoiding his homework, he just has no more left to give. I gave him a timer and set it for 45 minutes, all he has to do is concentrate on his paper for 45 minutes and then he can take a break. Then maybe he will do another 45 minutes, or maybe he will wait a day to do another 45 minutes, but eventually the paper will be done. This is how I got through my degree. You’ve got this!

      4. cuppa*

        OMG. The worst part about getting my masters was writing that last paper. I could do it, I knew I could, but I. did. not. want. to. write. that. last. paper. It was all mental but it was so hard. Good luck!

      5. ALP*

        Same. Boat. My professor pushed the deadline back a week but I’m starting my job on Monday and I MUST FINISH.

    3. Kyrielle*

      I will wrap the kiddo’s birthday presents. That, um, I need to give to him tomorrow. (At least I got them!)

    4. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      I have a grant I want to finish today. I have written 4 pages this morning. Like 3 more to go. I’m just BORED. This is my break then I’m knocking out the last three pages.

    5. Lizzy*

      Sending out job applications. Since my layoff from my small nonprofit job last month, I have lost a lot of passion for the field and I am really on the fence regarding my next career move. It doesn’t help that none of the job postings out there are piquing my interest (even though I qualify for quite a few of them).

    7. Amy M*

      Well….I just finished a project I have been dragging my heels on for months. Today I scanned the last of the “Terminated Employee” files to be filed online – no more hard copy employee files! It was tedious (think staple removals, paperclips, double sided copies, single sided copies, confidential medical records, etc) and took several months but I finally finished it. There were a few hundred files, and this morning I scanned the remaining three. Now I need to find something else to occupy my occasional “I have absolutely nothing else to do” time.

      1. Jules the First*

        I have some deadly dull yet absurdly complicated data entry (creating 10 year old projects on our three year old database so finance can track something no one actually cares about) sitting on my to do list…hopefully it will be done before next week’s open thread!

    8. Adam*

      Going through all my old X-Men comics and figuring out which to keep and which to give away (decluttering is my goal of 2015). I have a couple hundred, so it takes a while.

      Also job hunting…but my comics are currently all over my floor so they take up more space in my eyes.

    10. OfficePrincess*

      I have a training video to watch that, while topical, looks very similar to the one I just did last week.

      And I have to make a batch of fudge today for a party tomorrow night, but that one at least has a tasty bonus at the end.

    12. Felicia*

      I just have to write about 600 words about this one thing! This one thing I’ve always struggled with, but it’s not long and I know more than I think I do .

    14. Red Wheel*

      Networking emails. Cleaning my office of excess paperwork which involves filing. Neither will happen today.

    15. mondegreen*

      I’ll refresh my memory on this ~25-page guide that I haven’t opened in a couple months, then use the advice I know is in it somewhere to write the plan I need to write for the rest of the year.

      1. mondegreen*

        Read it, took notes for an outline, need a couple hours to finish the plan and do a quick proof-of-concept test. Thanks for the push, y’all.

    16. Talvi*

      That one chapter of my thesis that I knew would be messy to beat into coherence! There’s a reason I’ve been putting off this particular chapter.

    17. Folklorist*

      Argh. Awkward email returned, but fail on the interviews. Got some other good stuff done, though! I don’t know why I always put off transcribing interviews; they’re so easy to bang out.

      (That’s a lie, come to think of it–I hate hearing myself ask people questions. Especially since I have to sllllooooooww the audio down for the transcription, which makes awkward questions in my obnoxious voice that much more terrible!)

  13. Michelle*

    Just got my first raise in 4 years and I’m thrilled. However, I’m supposed to not be “overly enthusiastic” about it at work, even though everyone got a raise. So, we all get raises but we’re not supposed to enthusiastic about it? Way to blow the morale you just built up.

    1. Cruciatus*

      We were told something like this about our merit raises every year. We assumed everyone would get one so what’s the big deal? Turns out not everyone does. So maybe some people weren’t included on the raise list? Or maybe yours is way above other people’s? (Congrats by the way!)

      1. Jennifer*

        I’ve been on the “didn’t get a raise” list. Yeah, I really wanted everyone else to shut the hell up about their raises.

      1. themmases*

        That is way more charitable than what I was thinking: “Are you sure that everyone really did get one?”

      1. Michelle*

        I’m not really sure. Everyone came out of the executive director’s office smiling (I’m his assistant and sit right by his office).We’ve always been “discouraged” about sharing how much we make. We have never gotten yearly merit or performance raises. It’s usually a couple of years between raises and can be up to $2 per hour for hourly (nonexempt) employees. I fall within that category and got $2.

    4. INTP*

      My guess is that not everyone got the same raise. They don’t want the people who got 10% raises killing the morale of people who were told there was only money for a 1% raise, or got a 3% despite an excellent performance review.

    5. danr*

      There are ways to convey a nice raise without sending up fireworks. Although I know of one person at my old job who always complained that he never got a raise, and I found out afterwards that not only did he get raises, he got very nice ones. So don’t go in that direction either.

    6. F.*

      FWIW, in the USA under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), it is illegal for employers to forbid or limit discussion of wages as that is part of job conditions. However, sometimes it is in the employee’s best interests as far as coworker relations go to keep the good news to themselves. And Congratulations! on the raise.

      1. Michelle*

        We’ve always been “discouraged” from discussing how much we make.

        Thanks to everyone for their congratulations!!

        1. Hlyssande*

          I think it might be in my employee handbook that I “can’t” do such things, at a giant global industrial company.

          Of course, this is the same company wherein one of the head honchos at my division posted a letter to everyone on the internal site heavily implying that we all needed to vote for McCain, or else. That guy has been rotated out and thankfully we didn’t get one during the last elections. I still wish I’d saved the first, though.

      2. Perse's Mom*

        Yep. My old position (part-time) had a pay cap. When the company eventually got rid of it, they made it clear that it meant raises would be implemented with the next performance review. The people who had really been working their tails off despite the cap were pulled aside individually and given immediate raises… and were told not to say anything because only a few people got it and the concern was exactly coworker resentment – toward management and toward those that got the early raises.

  14. Snarky McSnark*

    Why is it so hard for people to start a new pot of coffee when it gets low or empty? It takes 1 minute to empty the old grinds, put in a new filter and open the presized bag of coffee. 3rd time this week I have gone in there to find it basically empty or less than half a cup left.

    1. Christy*

      Trust me, I get it. I recently realized that I could empty the dishwasher while I wait for my breakfast sandwich to microwave and now it’s always taken care of! It took me a year to realize this. Before I’d just be angry it was still full of clean dishes.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        If you don’t have a Keurig and don’t want to play maid to your coworkers, you could get a funnel cone coffee maker. For about $10 you can make your own coffee, one cup at a time, all you need is a hot water tap — like for brewing tea; most faucets won’t get quite hot enough. Usually on the coffee machine or water cooler.

        Link to follow.

        2. Izzy*

          Whoa, I wish I had thought of that before I retired! I use one at home and never thought to get one for work. I frequently found all the carafes empty – sometimes even watched as someone took the last cup and then walked away as if his (usually) time was too valuable to take a minute of it to start the next pot. If you take a cup and start a pot, it takes almost no extra time. If you have to wait for the pot to brew before you can get yours, you have to be away from your desk 5-10 minutes. Which sometimes I didn’t really mind, nice excuse for a break, but still…

          The housekeeping lady used to fill all the pots in the morning when she cleaned the break room, even though it was not part of her job. Then someone griped at her that she wasn’t making it strong enough (one of those types who uses one and a half or two packs per pot). So, she stopped making it altogether. Smart move, bigmouth!

            1. Snarky McSnark*

              I’ve seen the burner turned off during normal rush coffee hours (7:30-9:00 in our office), which implies they knew it was empty and still decided not to make a fresh pot for the next person.

            2. Michelle*

              Oh, yeah, we’ve had a couple of pots explode. We also get the ones where they leave like an ounce of liquid in the bottom and it bakes on the pot.

        3. themmases*

          I may have to get that for myself! We have a carafe and coffee maker at work but I’m not in very much and it’s hard for me to tell if the coffee there is fresh or if I’ll have to clean out the whole thing to make coffee because it’s been sitting. Because I know it sometimes does sit, I’m not confident anyone will drink it if I make it… Basically my excuse for being one of the many who doesn’t make coffee.

          I keep instant here but it’s not great.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            It’s a lot faster to clean up than a French press, although the quality isn’t quite as good. Still, just dump the filter and the grounds, give it a quick rinse, and you’re done. So it’s kind of a poor man’s French press. :)

        4. Windchime*

          My boss has one of these. He has a little electric water kettle on his desk and while that heats up, he grinds up a few beans and puts it in his little cone gizmo with a filter. Then he makes a single cup of coffee. I think he can make a cup almost as fast as he could walk to the kitchen for a cup of the office swill.

        2. WinterE*

          I hate them for exactly that reason. I just don’t see how you can justify that level of waste.

      4. Observer*

        The cone Cosmic mentions is nice. I use that one at home. At work, I have an Aerobie Aeropress. If you shop right, is also comes with a nice sized pack of filters. It’s easy to use, and also only needs access to hot water.

        Links to follow

    5. asl*

      Gah. I don’t get people like that. Do they think the magical office kitchen fairies do it? Who makes the coffee at home? Does their spouse secretly hate them for being so unhelpful?

      In my office the equivalent is that some people bring in treats and some of the treat eaters either leave the wrappers on the counter or take the last piece of whatever and don’t clean/throw away the dish. Of course those two groups don’t overlap – there’s the treats-bringers and then there are the people that never bring treats and also never clean up after themselves. Drives me nuts!

    6. SJ in PA*

      I would add: why is it so hard for people to put a new roll of toilet paper on the roll when they finish one?

      1. fposte*

        One of my favorite moments from the old sitcom _Mad about You_: the wife storms into the room, says to the husband fiercely, “Watch me!” She removes the empty roll from the TP spindle and puts the new full roll on, says “Voila!” and stomps back to the bathroom.

        1. Tomato Frog*

          I was talking to a coworker about how we didn’t like Mad About You, and she said “There was one scene I really liked…” and before she said anything else I knew that she was talking about this scene.

        2. Kelly L.*

          Wasn’t there also a Friends where someone mimed the process to someone else, without the actual roll?

      2. LQ*

        This is sort of hilarious. I live by myself. I almost never have guests. And I basically never put the new roll on. But I have at least once had someone else put it on when they are at my house. Sometimes when they are just washing their hands. I think it is adorable. I try to remember to put the roll on the holder when I have guests, but I just don’t bother most of the time alone. (I’m a very neat person, my place is always super clean, this is just one thing that doesn’t bug me to leave undone.)

      3. Rebecca in Dallas*

        OMG yes. They will unwrap the roll and just put it on top of the empty thing! *And* leave the wrapper on the ground or also on top of the empty roll. This is a women’s restroom, there is a teeny trash can right behind you!!!

      4. Violet Rose*

        My housemate does this – I’ve entered the bathroom to find an empty roll in the holder with a freshly unwrapped roll sitting on the back of the toilet so many times, it’s gone past the point of “annoyance” to “surrealist comedy.” (Perhaps he’s afraid to break the already-cracked toilet paper holder completely? Perhaps he knows I recycle the old cardboard tubes and doesn’t want to throw them into the regular trash? I legitimately have no idea, and it’s not like I really mind so I never bother to ask.)

        1. bearing*

          Maybe, like me, these people have lived with a toddler who is very interested in unspooling TP if it is on the spindle (one yank and THERE IT GOES!) but uninterested in ruining rolls that are merely propped up on the back of the toilet. At least, that is how I acquired my habit of not spindling new TP rolls.

    7. Book Person*

      No one will make more coffee in my office, because I’m apparently a magical coffee-pot cleaning fairy and no one else understands how to dump out old grounds and rinse out the pot. Seriously, I’ve come back from business trips and have found fuzzy green grounds in an old filter because people bought coffee while I was away instead of making it/cleaning the machine.

    8. Adam*

      Related: if the office dishwasher is clearly full after you put your dish in, is it REALLY that difficult to put some soap in it and push a button as well?

      1. Adam*

        I’m putting this here as a personal accountability measure as I’m pretty sure I’ve been guilty of this at least once.

      2. Rebeck*

        When the office recently replaced the domestic dishwasher with a catering grade one and did’t give anyone instructions on how to use the new one… Yes. It is too difficult.

    9. cuppa*

      Probably for the same reason no one will refill the ice cube tray.

      Signed, one half of a couple that once had a three week standoff with one ice cube left in the tray so no one would have to refill it. (now we have an automatic ice maker. it saved our marriage.)

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I used to make coffee while waiting for my tea to steep, just to be nice, but I don’t even drink it! I still do it, but not as often as I used to. I will take the empty pot off the burner or turn the burner off.

    11. NJ Anon*

      Why is it so hard for people to pop out the k-cup they just used to make coffee and throw it out? I mean, it would take about 2 seconds!

    12. Lia*

      One of my co-workers refuses to do this because co-worker feels it is “beneath their station” to do things like refill the coffeepot, wipe out the microwave after using it, or replace the empty paper towel roll. We had notes up in the kitchen reminding people to clean up after themselves, and co-worker got deeply offended by being “ordered” to do “domestic work” because we pay the admin assistants to do that.

      Never mind that the senior leadership in our area get their own coffee and clean up after themselves….

      Now guess the gender of my co-worker.

        1. Lia*

          That is almost exactly what our admin said — minus the chauvinistic part, because my co-worker — is female.

          1. Chocolate Teapot*

            The vending machine at work sells horrible coffee, but thankfully there are Nepresso and Senseo machines and a supermarket just down the street with a whole aisle full of pods, caps and bags. I have calculated that a packet of Senseo pods and some small pots of UHT milk works out cheaper per cup than the machine by about a third.

            I always tip out the drip tray, but I think I am the only one!

    13. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      Granted this is my office’s situation and not others, but it can be difficult to know who is “cutting down” on the coffee in a given week and who needs that extra jolt. Multiple departments share a break room so we may not know who is in and who is not in other departments. Making a new batch of coffee before 10 am is a no-brainier. Determining if people have stopped for the day when someone takes the last bit at 11:45 is less obvious. We have developed some unspokens (like don’t make a full pot after ten so it doesn’t sit and if you want coffee after a certain time, then you make it), but sometimes people get screwed.

  15. AFT123*

    I’m getting a job offer shortly for an amazing company!!!! They have shared the offer details with me already, just doing background checks now before it’s official. HUZZAH!!!

  16. rhinoceranita*

    I just started a new job and the wait to enroll in the 401k is 1 YEAR!!!!!

    The match is 100% up to 3% and then 50% for the next 2% (essentially if I deduct 5%, I would get a 4% match).

    I only had a 401k for the last year so it’s got maybe $10k in it. Should I roll it into a Roth IRA and make contributions on my own?

    What to do!

    1. Audiophile*

      I think the 1 year wait is pretty common. They want to make sure you’ll be around.

      That match percentage is great, if you ask me. The company I’m currently leaving only matched a certain percent and it never came close to 100%. Unless you worked for the company for more than 20 years, in which case you could get 75%. I have a 403b that I’ll eventually roll over. I don’t really have any advice, sorry. I’ll be in a similar position soon enough.

      1. rhinoceranita*

        At my last job it was 100% up to 5% and previous it was the same as my current job and the wait time was 90 days of employment.

        1. Audiophile*

          Wow. I think almost every job I ever had, had a 1 year waiting period. And no job offered 100%, it was usually between 4% and 6% based on my contributions. Only one potential job offered 6% based on salary and then if I contributed they’d match a certain percentage.

          2. LBK*

            I think you’re misinterpreting how people are describing the matches – when you say “I get a 100% match up to 4%,” that means your company will match whatever you contribute up to 4% of your salary. So if you contribute 2% of your salary, they’ll match all of it. If you contribute 10%, they’ll only match 4%. Only matching 4-6% of what someone actually contributed (and not 4-6% of their salary) would be absurdly low; usually it’s 100% up to a certain percentage, then some companies do an additional 50% match for a few more percent of contributions. I worked with 401(k)s for three years and never heard of anyone matching only 4-6% of the contribution amount.

            There are some companies that make contributions regardless of whether you contribute or not, but those are rare and they’re usually voluntary profit-sharing contributions, which means the amount isn’t fixed or guaranteed.

            1. Audiophile*

              I’m not sure if that’s directed at me. I was a little off on my numbers, but from one of their handbooks: 0-9 Years – 10% match of employee contribution. In the case of this job, eligibility was after 6 months of employment. And you have to stay the entire calendar year in order for them to contribute.

              1. LBK*

                That’s…really weird that it would only match 10% of what you contributed. I have to assume that’s just phrased vaguely and they mean a 10% match, otherwise that really is an uncommonly terrible plan.

                1. Audiophile*

                  I asked, they mean 10% of what an employee contributes. So unless I was contributing 75%, it really was worthless. Add to the fact that their contributions wouldn’t go in unless you worked through the final calendar day of the year and it became even more worthless. My first post-college job, I signed up for the 403b and contributed about $20 a paycheck. I forget what they matched, but it was better than this company.

            2. Mary (in PA)*

              The university I worked at gave you 8% of your salary with no personal contribution required, though you had to work there three years to be fully vested.

              That’s the best one I’ve ever seen (and it’s highly atypical).

              1. LBK*

                Was it a public university? Those are usually 403(b)s and (like Kerry’s below) they’re usually way better than 401(k)s because they have lower administrative requirements, hence they’re cheaper to maintain and the savings can be passed on to the employees.

                1. fposte*

                  We have no match in the 403b and 457 because we have a pension (or a self-managed plan, if you’re in that), but they’re still really, really good 403bs and 457s; the fund costs are considerably lower than retail in most cases.

          3. Kerry (Like the County in Ireland)*

            I have a 403(b) with no waiting to enol, no vesting for the 4% match, and if you are signed up they take it from every dollar they give you. It is fantastic.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        Is a year wait really that common? I’ve seen waiting periods of 1-6 months, but never a full year.

        1. OfficePrincess*

          I’m pretty sure mine was a year as well. AND changes/enrolling only takes effect at the start of each quarter, so it could easily be closer to 15 months.

        2. Cruciatus*

          Mine was a full year at my old job (a year for 403b and vacation time–at least for staff that wasn’t faculty). Current job started right away, which was weird to me at first, but it’s also mandatory here. You had to pick between the state retirement plan (vested after….10 years!) or TIAA-CREF. I went with the latter since I can’t guarantee I’ll be here 10 years from now (though it’s a better deal in the end if you do stay that long).

        4. Red Wheel*

          If a potential employer required a one year wait before enrollment, I would only accept the offer if they offset that in some other way financially or if I were desperate. I am horrified that a one year wait is common.

        5. Honeybee*

          I had no idea that waiting periods were even common; I didn’t have one at my position. I could see waiting to start matching, but not waiting to allow you to contribute your own money.

        6. Oryx*

          Obviously anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean much, but of my last 3 jobs (including current) 2 out of those 3 had a 1 year wait. Current job had 90 days.

        7. NewCommenterfromDaBronx*

          My (very small) company has a 1 year wait. No match but every eligible employee receives a 3% contribution annually whether they contribute themselves or not. It is called a safe harbor contribution. We also have an employer profit sharing contribution annually at the company’s discretion.

        8. Charlotte*

          My small company had a one-year-of-employment wait for the 401(k). Seemed like a long wait to me, but it’s part of the enrollment plan they have with the funds/advisor, so there wasn’t anything I could do about it but wait. Have to pick your battles, and this wasn’t one for me. I put money into a roth that year, which isn’t the same, but it’s better than nothing. I also didn’t get my match for 2014 until September 2015, but it was a lot higher than I expected (12% salary match). Being at a small company sometimes means less transparency and some slower movement, but I’ve been lucky that they ultimately treat me very well.

    2. fposte*

      Unless your old 401k is amazing, you’re likely to be better off rolling it into an IRA so that you have a wider choice of what to invest in and can choose low-cost investments at places like Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab, etc.

      If you want to roll it into a Roth rather than a traditional IRA, there can be tax considerations; usually the thing to do is roll it into a traditional IRA and then do a Roth conversion on it, where you’d only pay taxes on the gain between the opening of the traditional IRA and the conversion. But that depends on what else you have lying around, your income, etc., so I don’t want to say for sure.

      1. LBK*

        usually the thing to do is roll it into a traditional IRA and then do a Roth conversion on it, where you’d only pay taxes on the gain between the opening of the traditional IRA and the conversion.

        Admittedly my knowledge of this is a little rusty and Investopedia won’t load for some reason so I can’t confirm, but I’m not sure that’s accurate. Typically any time you convert from traditional to Roth, the entire amount will be considered part of your taxable income. Maybe you’re thinking of a Roth withdrawal? When you withdraw Roth funds you’re only liable for taxes on the gains and only if they’ve been invested for under 5 years, but I don’t think that’s true for converting from traditional to Roth.

        1. fposte*

          No, it’s just on the gain; I converted both last year and the year before. Hence the popularity of the backdoor Roth. It’s a funky and wonderful little loophole, and it can work to great advantage when you’re rolling over from a 401k. Qualified rollover to traditional IRA; conversion to Roth with taxes only on the interim gain (which will be nothing or virtually nothing). It gets more complicated if you have other traditional IRAs, because you hit the pro rata rule, which I have lived my life to avoid understanding.

          Generally the people at the place getting the IRA, like Vanguard, can walk you through it, too.

          1. toa*

            If you do this, does that mean you aren’t getting taxed on the money going in OR on the money going out (except the small gains during the few days between IRA conversion and Roth conversion)?

            I have old 401ks that I’ve never seen the point in rolling over – guess I better start researching!

        2. fposte*

          Bugger. I looked again and you’re right when you’re talking conversion from a pretax rollover. The backdoor Roth is for post-tax traditional IRAs when your income doesn’t put you in the Roth bracket.

          Sorry, all, LBK is right–you do want to check what taxes you’d owe, and as could be anyone notes you want to cover the taxes from *outside* the account, not diminish the assets in the IRA by pulling the tax payments from it.

          1. LBK*

            This actually used to sort of be my job – I did sales support for a rollover education center whose sole purpose was fielding calls from people who were looking to make 401(k) withdrawals and I’d often have to answer questions like this while making follow up calls. I’m just relieved that I haven’t totally forgotten everything I learned in the 2 years since I left!

            1. fposte*

              The backdoor Roth is so, so cool if you can do it that it sort of drowned out all my other thoughts.

    3. could be anyone*

      If you have the money to pay the taxes on it I’d go for the Roth. (you’ll need 15 or 25 percent depending on income)
      Don’t use money from the Roth for this as you’ll have a penalty for not converting all the money in addition to the taxes. I would definitely transfer to an individual IRA at least.

    4. BRR*

      It depends on how much you made in 2015/will make in 2016 and what you expect to earn in retirement. You want to consider what tax bracket you would be in each year and explore rolling it over in your lower earning year. If you have a high income in both years you might want to just leave it and open a separate IRA.

      Also BS on the 401k, I just found out something similar but not as bad and it’s BS.

      1. rhinoceranita*

        Yeah, I am going from 75k to 90k with no home or children so I am worried about taxes and my student loan deduction goes POOF this year.

        1. fposte*

          Do they have decent options in the plan? Because they’re still really worthwhile places to put your money if so, match or not, and that would be a good thing to do with a big salary jump like that.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      I think rolling the old 401k into a rollover IRA or Roth IRA is probably your best bet. Like fposte says, it’s hard to know which of those would be best for your specific circumstance.

      Another option is to determine if your new employer’s plan allows you to consolidate your old 401k with theirs, and if your old plan allows you to stay on it for a year. (There may some some special benefits to doing this and tracking may be easier, but generally I’d probably recommend an IRA instead.)

    6. bridget*

      I’d open an IRA in the meantime. You could also open a traditional IRA instead of a Roth, if you’d prefer, which has similar tax benefits as a traditional 401(k). They don’t come out pre-tax, but you deduct the contributions, so it ends up the same at tax time. (Of course, do a bit of research and figure out whether a Roth or traditional IRA is better for you tax-wise. You’ll have to take into consideration your current tax bracket, your prediction on whether that will be higher or lower in retirement, and how long you have before you retire).

      I’d recommend opening one up at Vanguard; super easy and extremely low fees. The downside is that you usually need $3,000 to start the account, which is the main inconvenience to starting your own retirement fund versus an employer 401(k) (plus the lower contribution limits, if you were going to exceed $5500 in your 401(k)). If you can start one, then I would immediately amend your direct deposit form so that a certain dollar amount or percentage of your paycheck automatically gets sent to your IRA, so that you have the same “set it and forget it” convenience of a 401(k).

      1. bridget*

        Gah, missed the part that you have $10k in the old 401(k). Yeah, I’d roll it over, start an IRA (either keeping it as traditional or converting it), and then contribute to that for the year.

      2. NewCommenterfromDaBronx*

        Contributions to a traditional IRA are not tax deductible if you have a retirement plan at your employer. Also, there are income limitations to the deduction even if you don’t have a plan.

        1. NewCommenterfromDaBronx*

          Correction. Sorry! If you have a plan at work, you can deduct your IRA contribution, but it is subject to income limitations & the deduction is phased out over a range of income. If you have no plan, it is always fully deductible up yo the maximum contribution. If you are married & spouse has a plan, rules change again & are a little more comicated.

    7. Foster Friend*

      It could be worse – one of the places I interviewed at required you to work at the company for six or seven YEARS before you could enroll. Even then, they only matched 1%.

      I have a 401K through my current company, and I also opened one on my own, just for diversification’s sake. If you roll into a Roth IRA, make sure you do it as soon as possible so you don’t incur any penalties.

    8. Master Bean Counter*

      If you roll it to a Roth you’ll have to pay income tax on it. I would just roll it to a traditional IRA and open a separate Roth if you want to contribute on your own.

    9. F.*

      Not qualified to advise you on what to do, so I won’t. Our 401(k) has a six-month waiting period to enroll and graduated vesting up to 100% at six years. It’s a moot point anyway, as they haven’t paid a match in at least the last six years or so. Then they wonder why almost no one participates. smh

      1. fposte*

        If it’s a decent 401k, it’s still very much worth doing even without the match; I don’t know if you’re in a part of HR that advises people, but if so, that’s a point worth making if you know that you’ve got low fees and decent providers.

        But yeah, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to have a vesting policy if there’s no employer match to vest.

        1. LBK*

          Agreed – even ignoring all the tax benefits and potential for growth, a 401(k) is a much more reliable savings plan than a savings accounts in most cases, because a) the money goes straight out of your check so you don’t even think about how much you’re contributing, and b) there are legal restrictions/penalties to discourage touching it before you’re supposed to. A savings account at your bank basically operates on willpower.

          1. fposte*

            Yup. And between two accounts (403b and 457) and a variety of add-ons, my AGI is like a dime.

            You do have to watch for those real dogs of plans with huge fees, but they have to get pretty high before it’s not worthwhile.

        2. F.*

          I do not advise on the 401(k). The company owner’s brother (talk about conflict of interest!) has a financial advisory company, and he is the one to guide the employees in their investments. I find it rather interesting that his own son, who also works for us, will not trust his father with his money. Our plan is through a well-known insurance company, but it does have some hefty fees and load funds.

    10. Lily in NYC*

      Actually, these days that’s really good! It was a year when I started here 10 years ago and now it takes 4 years to get 100% vested.

    11. Agile Phalanges*

      The (tiny) company I work for doesn’t match at all, and also has a one-year wait. Between that and the fact that it’s administered by a company that has high fees and doesn’t get high ratings at least made my decision to just roll all my 401(k) from my last job into a personal IRA easy. *wry smile* I have no idea what to advise you–check with a financial advisor of some type. But I’m guessing you should put your current funds into a personal IRA (it would only need to be Roth if the 401(k) was Roth), then just start anew with your new company when you become eligible. Probably doesn’t make sense to roll the old funds into the new one when it becomes possible.

    12. grumpy career changer*

      I am going to post a link with some background information about 401(k)s that I came across today. It’s a Frontline interview with Teresa Ghilarducci, at the New School. It brings up important issues about choosing a fund thoughtfully, as well as thinking about how much you can or want to save.

    13. NewCommenterfromDaBronx*

      If you roll over to a Roth, you will pay taxes, both federal & state, on the full rollover amount. Better to roll over to a traditional IRA to avoid the tax hit all at once now. You can then gradually convert the IRA to a Roth each year.

    14. Menacia*

      With regard to rolling over your 401K to a Roth IRA, you might have to pay taxes. Unless you have a Roth 401K, then you can roll it over to a Roth IRA tax free. The other option would be to roll your 401K over to a traditional IRA, which is also tax-free. I’m considering doing this myself as I have an old 401K that I would like to put in a centralized location with the rest of my personal investments.

  17. Audiophile*

    I start my new job next week! I couldn’t be more excited.

    I have today and tomorrow off, I’m working on Sunday at the current/soon-to-be old job and had requested Monday off last month, because my sister was supposed to have surgery. Now that that’s been canceled, I have a free day.

    I’m trying to get myself organized, debating buying a physical calendar and notebook or just using Google Keep to keep myself organized. I’ve bought a few calendars previously and almost never used them. My mom was religious about using her calendar, she still does and she’s retired now.

    1. Kyrielle*

      Do you have a smart phone? There’s also a plethora of calendars and other tools for those, and integration to Google and other platforms, and on and on.

      I love having a physical day planner, though. I _use_ it, and it somehow feels easier to flip ahead/flip back, and I can add notes easily, and…I have no idea why. Because the app can do all that too and I will have the app in my pocket when the day planner has been left at home or in the car. But I like the day planner.

      (I totally use Trello and Habitica for organizing some things, though. Habitica is surprisingly fun.)

      1. Audiophile*

        I’m getting a “smarter” phone in a few weeks, the Moto X Pure. It’s been shipped soon. I’ve been using a GoPhone with an old version of Android, since I broke my LG G3 a few months back.

        I only recently discovered Google Keep, though I use Google Calendar pretty regularly. I was thinking it couldn’t hurt to have a physical day planner. I tried using Trello for a bit and I didn’t love it as much as some people. Never heard of Habitica, I’ll have to look it up.

        1. Kyrielle*

          Habitica is no substitute for a day planner, but it’s great for keeping you on-track with habits and tasks…assuming you enjoy a roleplaying/fantasy game like gamification of those.

        2. Kyrielle*

          …just realized one reason I like a physical day planner is that I’m often talking on the phone when I need to schedule an appointment, which makes checking to see if there’s *already* an appointment in the calendar on that day a bit awkward. (The phone supports it, but, “Hang on, can you wait a second while I look at this other app on my phone?” is not comfortable in a phone exchange, IMO.)

          1. Audiophile*

            I’ve been that person, Kyrielle. I will often tell people to hold on, while I punch away at my phone’s touchscreen to open Google Calendar. “One sec, still checking my calendar. Hehe, sorry it takes a while to load.” It takes a good chunk of time when you’re running Android 4.41x or something. Yeah, I can’t wait to get my new phone.

          2. NorCalHR*

            And this is exactly the reason I still use a physical day planner!! It also helps in seeing if I can accommodate a request by rescheduling — especially as I block project time in my Outlook calendar in an often-vain attempt to get through my ToDo ToDay list!

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      With Google Calendar can choose to send yourself emails or texts as reminders for calendar events. Plus you can invite other people, share certain events or the whole calendar with specific people…it’s pretty flexible.

      1. Audiophile*

        I usually do pop up reminders to my phone, which is useful if I don’t archive them lol. It comes in handy for paying bills and when I had interviews scheduled way in advance.

        I think it might be useful for me to have something physical, as well as digital. The act of writing it down, will help me remember it.

      2. OfficePrincess*

        Yes I love Google Calendar. I can sync both my work and personal calendars to my phone, have my personal display at work, and also use it to keep track of my husband. Some may be annoyed by getting an invite to drive their husband to the airport, but it’s the only way I’ll remember where he’s going and when to pick him up!

      3. F.*

        Is Google Calendar word searchable? I keep a paper & pen work diary/to-do list, but had to go back through months of entries today looking for everything on a particular employee situation. It would have been so much easier being able to search on a certain word electronically, especially with my terrible handwriting.

    3. Bellen*

      I always wanted to be a calendar person, but I’ve actually found the best results (meaning, I actually use them) from a combination of Bullet Journalling (daily+weekly tasks) and using the calendar on my phone for appointments or any reminders more than 2 weeks out.

      I remember the smaller/daily tasks better when I write them down on paper, which is why the Bullet Journal method has worked well for me. I buy a moleskin twice a year and I’ve tweaked the method along the way, to create something that works best for me. Plus, there’s nothing better than a fresh moleskine journal!

    4. Trixie*

      Because I have an older phone that wont’ work with new apps, I stick with monthly planners. I’ve had really good luck finding $1-$2 cute ones at Dollar Store, Walmart, Walgreens. The monthly style is easy to read, and I keep with me for meetings, appts, etc.

  18. themmases*

    I was late to yesterday’s update about learning to code, but I wanted to share a technique I learned since the original letter was up. Hopefully it will help others.

    That tip is, after the fact flowcharts. When I inherit a piece of code from someone else and want to understand what they did, I just make a flowchart of it and highlight anything important to me such as where a particular variable was created and what it means. I do this with my own work too, if I’ve had to take a break from a project or have done all I know how to do and am not sure what to do next. I take some time to make a chart of my work so far and it often makes my next step clear.

    Having a work log in a separate document is also great if you want to keep track of your own work as you go. For some reason it works better for me than commenting code, because it’s too easy to slip into thinking it’s obvious what this procedure does if I just give it a title. If I’m writing in a separate document where the code isn’t there unless I call it out, it’s mentally easier to give enough context.

    You can make flowcharts easily and for free with draw.io. (I don’t work for them, I’m just obsessed with them.)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, with code, understanding the workflow is way more important than the actual syntax of the code. Still, I prefer, once I have my flow worked out, to still comment my code so I can easily know what’s going on if I have to tweak a particular section.

      1. themmases*

        Oh yeah, I comment mine too. And having a log has actually made me kind of better at it, now that I see what information I go back to the log for.

        I like going back too once I know what I’m doing worked. Someone who inherits my code doesn’t need to see all my procedures that didn’t work quite right, or that I was only doing to check something. Being an hour or two removed from it also makes it less “obvious” to me what it all means.

  19. Ineloquent*

    So, i am paid 60000 a year, but I have been told by a previous manager that I am underpaid for my payband and i do extremely excellent work. My current payband goes from 55 to 85k. I am being promoted to a payband that ranges from 60k to 105k. I am considered a rockstar, and my current manager would like me to apply for the next higher grade next year, since I am, in his words, already performing at that level. I have been told that they would like to groom me for management for my group. I know that all of the people in my group in the new payband make about 75-85k. Would I be totally tone deaf to try to negotiate 80k on this offer?

    1. Christy*

      Hell no! Frankly, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t negotiate for 85k if you’re a rock star and they want you to be a manager.

    5. AnotherHRPro*

      You should definitely negotiate, but moving from 60,000 to 80,000 is a 33% increase. I’ve never seen someone get a 33% increase for what looks like a one level promotion but this will depend on your company. I think a 10,000 increase is more reasonable (17%).

      1. OfficePrincess*

        I have actually gotten a 33% increase for a 1 level jump (granted, $ figure was lower), so if the manager is saying that’s what it should be, it’s certainly worth trying to negotiate for.

      2. Been there*

        Dont’ let the % freak you out. I was promoted from 90k with a 7% bonus to 110 with a 22% bonus, then 110 to 130l with a 30% bonus. Those are 22% and 18% jumps in base alone and they were in consecutive years.

        I was promoted up to the next level and given the bottom of the salary band/market rate. This year I’m getting promoted again and it will likely be another big jump. Honestly, I have had the 20-30% jump in responsibility YOY to justify it.

        The last thing they want (in most scenarios- there are exceptions!) is a leader/mgr who makes substantially less than the groups s/he is managing. I actually now manage someone that makes 150 (but my bonus is higher) so I assume my promo will land me approx there since it’s the bottom of the next salary bracket anyway.

    6. CharlieCakes*

      Go for it! But be aware of what your company policies are. In my company and internal transfer or promotion can only result in a 25% max salary increase unless signed off by Jesus himself.

      Good luck!

    7. Menacia*

      When you are viewed as being a rock star, that means you have leverage, so use it to your advantage! I remember when I was first hired at my company, I was fine w/the salary, but my manager got me a 20% increase after 2 years because she saw my worth and wanted to make sure I stayed. Go for it!

    8. Askley :)*

      Also, remember it’s a negotiation–start high so that if they come back low you’ve got some wiggle room if you’re happier with 80k but you would be annoyed with less.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      OMG! You should request that after every Xmas song that’s played in the office, they have to play Adam Sandler’s Hanukkah Song! XD

      1. Creag an Tuire*

        Aw, great, now I won’t be able to read anything involving the words “Hanukkah Balls” without imagining it said in the incredulous voice of George Takei.

        Really killing my ability not to laugh at work, here. :P

        1. Savannah*

          I’m been trying all day (since 9 am when she put it out) to get a picture, I might wait around until she leaves to snag one for AMA.

      2. So Very Anonymous*

        I think the traditional “Second Christmas” ornament is a reindeer, isn’t it? Or is just a horsey?

    11. LBK*

      What perfect timing! A huge Christmas tree appeared in our building’s lobby today, decked out in ornaments, garlands and lights and replete with wrapped gifts under it…and then there was one sad little menorah on the front desk. I couldn’t help but think of the Hanukkah balls. It’s the thought that counts, I guess?

      (FWIW I’m not remotely opposed to holiday decorations in the office and I actually quite like the company getting into the spirit, it was just funny that someone was clearly like “I guess we should also acknowledge that other thing that happens around this time just in case we have some Jewish people at this huge, multinational company.”)

      1. literateliz*

        You know, we have the same thing (giant Christmas tree next to a little menorah), and I noticed it and kind of thought the same thing as you, but then I wondered, what would be better? A giant menorah? Genuinely interested in thoughts on this.

        1. literateliz*

          To clarify, not interested in yes/no votes on the giant menorah because that would clearly be ridiculous (right? I think?), but in thoughts on how to make it seem like less of an afterthought given that Christmas is in general much more overcommercialized and given to giant displays on a scale that would look weird for a menorah. (I did not look closely but I think there were also a couple dreidels, and the menorah might actually be one of our products which is kinda cool)

          1. Eugenie*

            When I lived in DC there was a giant (like bigger than a house) menorah near the national Christmas tree — go big or go home?

          2. OriginalEmma*

            Not a giant menorah but at least put it on a nice table covered in a nice table cloth with some culturally appropriate accessories. I hope it’s not literally on the floor because what says “lower priority” than literally placing it on the ground.

        2. fposte*

          At least it’s actually in time for Hanukkah. What’s really awful is when they put it out afterwards.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Hanukkah isn’t a major Jewish holiday. Honestly, it’s more irritating to see people trying to treat it like it is in the interest of giving equal time. Speaking as a Jew (not that I speak for all Jews), I’d rather see them skip the menorah altogether than do silly tokenism or treat it like “Jewish Christmas,” which it is not.

          2. Savannah*

            I very much agree. I would really rather my boss just recognize that I don’t celebrate Christmas and I have no intention of doing so in the future. Bringing Hanukkah into the mix just seems so misguided. At least she held back on the K-cup switch this year.

          3. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Hear hear. “Are you going home for Chanukah?” “Nope.” “That’s so SAD!” “Ask me again during Passover.”

            1. Felicia*

              I got a similar thing when people were shocked that I was working on Hanukkah. They wouldn’t believe me (the only Jewish one in the group) when they told them it was a super minor holiday.

          4. LBK*

            Huh, I actually never knew that it wasn’t a major holiday – I guess I kind of just assumed it was based on its proximity to Christmas. And this is coming from someone who grew up in a very Jewish neighborhood with many Jewish friends.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              Chanukah is all about… marketing. Not the holiday itself, but its perception. It’s a minor holiday, but since it’s so close to Christmas, and there are presents (which I think is because of the proximity to Christmas), it grew into this THING that many people– even Jewish ones!– think it’s like Jewish Christmas. In other words, you’re not alone.

              Chanukah is a fun festival that comes with lovely candles. If you’re a kid, it comes with lots of chocolate and presents and games, and sometimes it coincides with your winter break from school and is therefore awesome. If you’re any person in my immediate vicinity, it comes with the Best Potato Latkes in the Whole World.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I wish you could email food. Or that we had Wonkavision. I’d love to have a potato latke. And cheese knishes.
                I also want to try carrot tsimmes. I posted that as a word on one of my blog vocabulary posts, and the picture made me drool.

                1. Chocolate Teapot*

                  Oddly enough, quite a few of the Christmas markets around here sell something very similar to potato latkes.

          5. Felicia*

            As a Jew also, I totally agree. The only reason they call it the “Holiday season”, and made Hanukkah into such a big deal even though it’s such a minor holiday is because of Christmas.

          6. Katie the Fed*

            you also wouldn’t believe how many times I have to explain to people that Ramaddan isn’t a winter holiday, because they like to list it with Christmas and Hanukkah to make sure their bases are covered.

            2. Kelly L.*

              Yeah, the Muslim holidays move, correct? I know Eid was in December a while back, but isn’t currently, I think.

              2. Katie the Fed*

                Yes it’s a lunar calendar. There are also different Eids – Eid al Fitr and Eid al Adha are two of the most prominent. But I’m not a Muslim so I don’t want to speak for them.

                Oddly, Diwali never gets mentioned and that’s a super fun holiday.

                4. Marzipan*

                  We have a Diwali celebration at work, with fireworks and dhol drummers and dancing. It’s loads of fun. (It’s not on quite the same scale as the Chinese New Year celebration, though.)

              3. mander*

                Yeah, this detail in Serial really confused me until I realized that Ramadan is not tied to the solar calendar (duh!). At the time I was listening to it they were talking about Ramadan observances in January at the time of the murder, but it was summer and I knew Ramadan was actually happening at that time.

                1. AvonLady Barksdale*

                  I was JUST about to say that Ramadan was in the winter in 1999, and I only know that because of Serial. :)

            4. Ad Astra*

              I feel like Ramadan coincided with Christmas (or at least with the month of December) some time in my formative years, because I always think of it as a winter holiday and I’m often wrong.

          7. Arielle*

            One of my Jewish coworkers suggested to me today that we light candles in the office next week at sunset and invite anyone who wants to come. I thought that was a super nice idea, especially since it gets dark so early that lighting candles at work is the only way to actually do it at the right time.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              I think that’s a very nice idea. For my part, I put a meeting on everyone’s calendar indicating that I will bring in latke-making ingredients late next week and fry in our (full) kitchen. No one objects to potatoes.

          8. Anonsie*

            I’m not Jewish but the Hanukkah stuff has always struck me this way. Wanna be inclusive? Maybe acknowledge the other holidays people actually care about throughout the year and skip all this tokenism bunk around Christmas time.

          9. katamia*

            I’m Jewish, too, but I do like the tokenism. It’s definitely tokenism, but when you get totally blanketed with Christmas stuff everywhere and it’s totally inescapable, sometimes just getting an “Oh, yeah, you exist too” is nice even if it’s a pretty tone-deaf one.

        4. AnotherHRPro*

          We have a giant Christmas tree with a GIANT menorah right next to it. Seriously, it is as tall as I am!

          1. Audiophile*

            The office building I used to work did this as well. They had a giant Christmas tree (though one year they had one giant-ish tree and two smaller trees AND poinsettias, that did NOT go over well) and a giant menorah, a nativity scene and Kwanza candles.

        5. mander*

          I don’t know what would be better, but somehow I’m now imagining someone making menorah and dreidel shaped ornaments to put on the Christmas tree in some kind of misguided effort to be multicultural…

          2. LBK*

            I think this is actually a thing, because I remember Alison saying it’s one of her pet peeves (and is vaguely offensive).

      2. Artemesia*

        I live in a high rise and many of my neighbors are Jewish. We always have this cute little electric Menorah on the table in the lobby near the elevators where notices and obits are posted in a frame from time to time (also an ‘old’ building — we get a lot of obits). There is a Christmas tree in the living room part of the lobby. It isn’t size that matters here, but acknowledgement of both traditions.

      3. Turanga Leela*

        The tree with the little menorah was standard in my apartment building, where most of the residents were Jewish. I think it’s fine; menorahs are pretty little most of the time, and I’m happy with the gesture toward Judaism. I mostly notice if they light the candles on the right day and in the right order.

      4. Sparkly Librarian*

        I was put in charge of holiday decorations at my branch this winter (my first year here). There was a stash of boxes in the supply room, and I brought some extras from home – have been doing it in bits and pieces all week, as it’s easier to get involved when the doors are closed before we open. As we’re a public library, I wanted to be inclusive and informative, and I wanted to reflect our patrons’ religious and cultural backgrounds. But no Hanukkah balls!

        The main display case up front has the candelabras of the season – a menorah, an Advent wreath, and a kinara. (Can’t actually light the candles, but there’s a rich purple theme echoed by the hanging quilt fabric I found in the boxes.) There’s also a large bulletin board in the children’s area that now says Happy Holidays in glitter script, and has letters spelling out Chanukah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, Christmas, and Yule, with a selection of children’s picturebooks on those holidays. I put up notices about branch holiday closures / end-of-year service changes on the same board.

        Today the tree went up (because there was one of THOSE in the supply room!) in the front entry and I topped it with a Santa hat. Red and gold plastic globe ornaments and clear plastic dangles (not glass, so we don’t have to fret about accidents). We’ve got poinsettias placed strategically. I’ve also dropped clots of tinsel/pinecones and evergreen branches/bows here and there and enlisted patrons in creating cut-paper snowflakes to hang. Today I’ll finish up with a papel picado workshop for teenagers — if I’m lucky they’ll get hooked into it long enough to make a few extras I can hang on the reference desk!

    15. Turanga Leela*

      Can you write a song about them?

      “Oh Hanukkah balls, oh Hanukkah balls, you are so big and shiny…”

    17. cuppa*

      !!!!!!!!!!
      It’s a tight race between this and Duck Club, but this is now my favorite AAM day of the year.

    19. Jillociraptor*

      This is so classic, thank you for bringing this story to my life.

      Brb need to look up the Hebrew word for “balls” so I can change the Chanukah blessings on Sunday…

  21. Anonypants (for this)*

    I have an in-person job interview next week, woohoooo!

    I wasn’t looking, but they contacted me and they seemed like a great place. And since my contract ends at the end of the month, it seems like a great time. I like where I work, but being a contractor isn’t great, even if I’m being payrolled through a 3rd party and get some benefits – no paid time off, and my I only ever get 2 month extensions which means a tiny panic attack every other month. My manager is great and seems to appreciate me, although she doesn’t anticipate making me a full-time employee anytime soon, and one of my coworkers drives me bonkers and there doesn’t seem to be a solution (manager’s repeatedly tried to remind her I’m not her assistant, but it never seems to stick). I’m now under pressure to fork over money for a gift for our manager which makes me cringe.

    So yeah, a change sounds pretty darn good right about now. I feel really good about this job, not only will the benefits be better but I’d have a senior title! Woohoooo! It sounds like they really value what I do and feel there’s a real career path in it. Not a lot of places I’ve spoken to feel that way, so this is really exciting!

    But I’m going crazy because while the hiring manager definitely wants to bring me in to meet the team, the confirmation e-mail is taking forever. I’ll feel so much better when it’s definitely on the schedule.

  22. Ruby Tuesday*

    This is more about getting a discussion rolling than anything else. I read quite a few blogs (it’s part of my daily ritual during my commute) and I recently ran into one about “Cover Letters vs. Pain Letters”. I had sent it to Alison as…what do you think? But I’d love to hear what other people thing as well. Everything I read on this blog goes against the grain of what I know (and what I’ve read here) but I can’t deny that it did cause me to think a little.

    1. Dawn*

      If you’re talking about the advice from Liz Ryan, keep in mind she’s extremely motivated to get people to start using Pain Letters because she’s selling advice to get people to use Pain Letters. She’s monetarily invested in people using them, so of course she’s going to say they’re better.

      That being said, really it’s just a new, short and sweet to the point way to write/format a cover letter.

      1. Allison*

        Yes, she seems like someone who uses her blog as a way to sound like an expert so people will want to hire her as a consultant.

      2. themmases*

        I kind of liked Liz Ryan for a bit– I can always use a reminder to relax and not sound like a robot when writing for something I really want. But the pain letter advice made me really start to question why I was listening to her about anything.

        The best I could say about them is that maybe they are totally appropriate in some other industry that just definitely isn’t mine.

    2. SL #2*

      Liz Ryan and her Pain Letters… I started reading her stuff around the same time I started AAM. I much prefer Alison’s advice! I see no difference between Pain Letters and cold-calling a business to see if they’re hiring.

    3. Dr. Doll*

      Just had to google “pain letter.” If I got one of those directly in my email or at my desk I would mentally tick the candidate as “high maintenance” and tell them thank you for your interest, according to university policy you must apply via HR. And I’d only be allowed to look at the materials submitted at that point, which if it included the pain letter would just remind me that they were high maintenance.

      (Not for faculty; the process is different.)

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I Googled it and read a short snippet from Liz Ryan, and I don’t really see how it’s different from a cover letter. So you just send it directly to the hiring manager instead of jobs@company.com or something?

        1. Dr. Doll*

          It’s like a cover letter but you focus on how you address “pain.” Like…hm, uh, oh: If I had an opening for a lab tech: “My organizational skills will solve the pain caused by messy grad students and unsafe lab procedures.”

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            So it’s a cover letter with a particular focus? I don’t see why that deserves its own name. I mean, isn’t the whole point of hiring someone that she’ll do her job and improve the organization / troubleshoot if necessary?

    4. F.*

      I’ve gotten a few of those, but I never knew they were a *thing*. (I had to Google it, too.) I can tell you that I found every one of them to be phony sounding and smarmy as all heck, and they all were put in the “No Way in Hell” file. As an HR Manager, I can also add that even if you go to the possible hiring manager at my small company, ALL resumes and applications have to go through me anyway, so you’re not doing yourself any favors and you’re pestering someone who doesn’t want to be bothered (that’s part of the reason why they pay HR!). Please stick to being professional. Please. (YMMV, of course)

    5. Voluptuousfire*

      You never actually see any comments on her articles on LinkedIn where people used her advice and say it worked.

      1. Nanc*

        She just posted another fun one on LinkedIn called The Real Reason Qualified People Don’t Get Hired.

        A few pearls of wisdom:
        Ignore the job ad and reach out to the person who heads up your function at any employer you choose. That person is your hiring manager.
        There is no need to confine your outreach to managers who have current job ads posted. Every manager has Business Pain.

        I feel awful for the folks who follow this advice–it’s so bad. There are problems with recruiting systems but honestly, ignoring the process completely probably wont’ result in a job and if it does, do you really want to work for that person?

        1. esra*

          Her pieces always appear promoted on LinkedIn and they’re just the worst. It’s like they were written by an alien who can’t quite figure out how hu-mans work.

    6. nep*

      Crazy timing. I only just learned about this concept of a ‘pain letter’ yesterday, then I poked around in AAM’s archives to see whether there had been discussions about Liz Ryan and her advice. As I came across this today I had to check the date to be sure I wasn’t somehow in the archives again.
      I am not a manager or hiring manager but I can say that a letter with this tone / approach would go straight into the Hell. No. basket.

  23. Katie the Fed*

    Question for everyone:

    Do you think a manager who requests a doctor’s note for an absence is indicating he/she doesn’t trust you?

    I was asked for one for the first time in my entire career. Now granted, I’ve been out a lot this year with some serious medical issues. I didn’t invoke FMLA because it wasn’t an issue to take leave, but a new manager just asked me for a doctor’s note after I was out three days last week.

    I was kind of shocked – I’ve never asked any of my people for doctor’s notes. I generally trust them.

    1. Anie*

      I could see it if the absences start to become somewhat regular.

      At my work, if you’re out you’re out. BUT I have seen the COO ask a sales person for a doctor’s note after a third day out. The office manager immediately told the sales woman privately not to bother and to continue resting (which I agree with), but enough in a row for a vital position and I’d ask for a note if only to make sure the person is taking their absences seriously.

      Do they know why you’ve been out? If that’s the case, that explanation should’ve been enough in my eyes.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yes, they know. I’m very open about it. I mean, I was in a wheelchair for a while – it’s not hidden. And I’ve burned all my sick leave so it’s not like I’m just taking leave because I don’t feel like coming in.

        Maybe it’s just this manager’s quirk, but it feels really personal.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Is it worth asking them about it? Like, “I’ve never been asked for a doctor’s note in my working life, nor asked an employee for one, and I’m wondering if this signals any concern that you have about my use of leave?”

          1. Katie the Fed*

            I did actually. And my boss just said “oh no, after three days we’re supposed to request them and it’s just to make sure everyone’s covered in case there are questions.”

            Which struck me as vague and strange, because we CAN ask for doctor’s notes after three days, but you don’t have to.

            Then today he said he was surprised to see me at work and thought I’d be out. So…I have no idea. I also recognize I might not be thinking about this rationally because I’m a lot of pain and on a lot of medications, so…. yeah.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              If you have a chronic thing where it’s going to be a pain to keep getting doctor’s notes, I think it would be worth pointing that out and also pointing out that your understanding is that the notes aren’t required but rather are optional to request (and that you’ve never had to provide one previously).

              1. Katie the Fed*

                Good idea. I might also request FMLA protection just in case, but I didn’t want to invoke that in case I get pregnant.

                At the end of the day I’m glad to work somewhere that I have lots of leave and legal protections, but I didn’t need to deal with this this week :/

                1. Anonsie*

                  I would highly recommend that you set up the FMLA for your protections now even if you don’t think you need it, because if you need time away regularly you need that wrapped up before anyone has a problem with it. You won’t know you need the safety net until you’re about to hit the ground.

            2. Angela*

              Hmm..If it’s a new manager and there is a policy somewhere that states something about a note after 3 days then perhaps they are just more of a stickler for the rules. I know that my incredibly awesome manager is very much a rule follower and had me bring in documentation to give to HR when I took a bereavement day and HR didn’t even want it. Said that the company “could request” but didn’t have to have it on file for the pay to go through.

            3. EmilyG*

              Do you think this could be a confusion about CAN vs. MUST on someone’s part? Like everyone thinks it’s CAN except for some new HR person who’s telling your boss they MUST extract one from you?

              I’m anti-doctor’s note but got called out on the carpet on my previous job because I let someone come back without one. (He just had the flu!) I thought it was weird, but the explanation seemed to be 50% “we have to do this to CYA about treating all employees equally” (and there were some employees who they really did want notes from) and 50% that this was actually the first time I’d had an employee out for that exact number of consecutive business days–all previous illnesses were broken over a weekend or something, so I thought it was a new request but actually a unique set of circumstances.

              (It was still dumb.)

              1. Katie the Fed*

                “Do you think this could be a confusion about CAN vs. MUST on someone’s part? Like everyone thinks it’s CAN except for some new HR person who’s telling your boss they MUST extract one from you?”

                I suspect this could be the case. But sometimes I overpersonalize things :)

              2. Katie the Fed*

                OK, so I just raised it again and it’s this. He thinks he’s supposed to. I think he’s wrong, but whatever. He seemed genuinely surprised that I came in today, so I don’t get the sense it’s that he thinks I’m faking.

                1. Bagworm*

                  I know I’m late to the conversation on this but just wondered if it might also have to do with other people in the organization. I work for local government and the whole agency I’m at is now having to enforce the “optional” disciplinary action for staff who take over a certain number of hours of sick leave a year because some people facing discipline for multiple issues including exceeding those number of hours are claiming the policy’s not consistently enforced. Very frustrating for me because I’ve been dealing with a few different health issues this year. Wasn’t a problem when I took leave but now it is and I don’t even have an FMLA option because they won’t approve it retroactively. (Ok, that turned into a big whine about my stuff. Hopefully most people have already moved on so I can be excused.)

                2. Katie the Fed*

                  Bagworm, are you sure they won’t apply it retroactively? Because that’s the precise reason I didn’t – I didn’t want the 6 weeks I had to take off earlier this year to count against it.

            4. animaniactoo*

              I think the key here is “new manager” – i.e. *He* thinks this is what he is supposed to be doing, given that is what he has said to you. You, as a longer employee of the company are aware of this as a “can” (and usually “don’t bother”) vs a “should”.

              I would tend to think that whoever trained him on protocols said “should”, or that this was the standard in his previous company and he’s carrying it through to here even though he was given “can” here.

            5. F.*

              We have a similar optional three-day policy, but the only time we require a note is if the person has been injured or had surgery. We want to be sure the person is able to safely return to work. We are a small company and not covered by FMLA, either.

    2. Christy*

      As a government employee, I’d be surprised and confused, but it would depend on the tone of the request. I know my boss trusts me, so it would be weird if he were serious about verifying.

    3. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      Yes. I’d be shocked. More than anything it’s incredibly infantalizing and I’d be wondering if my manager/company cared about *me* at all.

    4. Cambridge Comma*

      One possibility is that the culture of places people have worked before rubs off on them — if they had been asked often, they might see it as normal.

    5. Dawn*

      Doctor’s notes are so infantilizing. Either I’m an adult and can handle my life just fine and if you have issues with my performance then talk to me about it like an adult, or you think I’m no more trustworthy than a college student and make me do the equivalent of going down to Student Health to explain why I’m daring to miss your incredibly important Intro to History 101 class because I can’t quit coughing up a lung because I have pneumonia.

      Also doctors haaaaaaaate wasting their time on that crap. Hate it.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yes! It was actually pretty easy because I asked if I could email the e-receipt from my co-pay, and that was fine. But it does feel SUPER infantalizing. I don’t want to burn leave. I want to have a baby in the next couple of years – I was trying to hoard every last hour. Besides, it’s not like I don’t work extra hours and weekends normally.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          In this case, the manager may just be trying to make sure he covers all bases, since he’s new.

          I agree, though; doctor’s notes are stupid, unless you need clearance to return for safety reasons (i.e. “Katie can perform all her duties [climb the 20-foot kitten rescue ladder]; she is no longer at risk of syncope”).

      2. Tau*

        High school student, even. I never had to produce any doctor’s notes if I missed a lecture at university. (Which was lucky, because I had a lot of absences due to disability-related issues where going to a GP would have been completely pointless.)

      3. Hlyssande*

        Ugh the college student thing. I had to get a doctor to browbeat the school nurses to let me withdraw from a class because I had honest to jeebs influenza. The nurses refused at first because they wouldn’t let me withdraw ‘over a cough’ which was how it first presented. Nevermind that I literally could not focus my eyes to read.

        I can understand how doctor’s notes could be useful in some ways, but as a general rule I totally agree that they’re infantilizing and place an unnecessary burden on both workers and doctors who have to waste time (and patients who might catch what the worker has!).

    6. Kyrielle*

      I’ve always worked somewhere that required a doctor’s note after three or more days out, so I never found it to show a lack of trust from the manager; it was just policy. I’m not sure if the policy is founded on “you might be shamming” or “we need to make sure you should be working” – but either way I don’t like it.

      But I wonder – did the new manager come recently from somewhere that had that policy, and is just continuing what they know? (Or is it a policy where you are, but one that’s sort of optional, and the new manager is just sticking to the policy as written?)

    7. Nm*

      We don’t ask for them – but technically, it is in the handbook that you need a note for an absence of three days or more. Your new manager may just be more by the book, or is used to that convention. I wouldn’t worry too much about it!

    8. squids*

      Yeah, I’d be not cool with that. I’d see it less as they don’t trust me, as they don’t trust any of their reports; bit of a red flag for any issues coming up. Plus, that puts a huge burden on the medical system to provide this unnecessary service.

      1. Jules the First*

        If I call in sick (as opposed to leaving sick) I have to fill in a form and get my manager and HR to sign it. Which is odd, because no one even wants to read the pitches I do for $30-40 million worth of business…

    9. Ad Astra*

      I would absolutely take it to mean one of two things:
      1. This particular manager doesn’t trust you
      2. The company as a whole doesn’t trust its employees

      We all know there are tons of ways you can be legitimately too sick to work that don’t require the care of a doctor. Requiring a doctor’s note for a sick day encourages people to go to the doctor when they don’t really need to, which is a waste of everyone’s time and of the employee’s money. It’s a bad way to do things.

      BUT it is fairly common to require a doctor’s note after three or more sick days. Often, companies will phrase it as “We need a note saying you’re healthy enough to return to work” rather than “We need a note saying you were sick enough to miss work.”

      1. Granite*

        “We need a note saying you’re healthy enough to return to work”

        This is ours. If you are out more than 3 days in a row they say you have to have a note saying you are good to return, but I don’t know whether it’s enforced. I got the impression it was more of a CYA that managers aren’t pressuring folks to come back too soon after surgery and the like.

        1. cuppa*

          Yeah. We have a “manager may require you to give a note after three days policy”, and I usually request one. One reason is that I want to look like I treat everyone the same, but also I do think that, with rare exceptions, if you are sick for three days, you should probably see a doctor and make sure you’re ok and can return to work. It’s never been an issue to get one.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I think three days is too short–a bad cold or flu can knock you out for a week, and you don’t really need to go to the doctor for a cold. You might for flu if you have complications, but the majority of people just need rest. And they don’t like it at the clinic when you hack all over their waiting room.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              I agree! I had swine flu and was out of commission for 8 days! Flu can be really serious. Although I actually did see a doctor, so…yeah.

              In any case, I maintain that it’s stupid.

            2. Anonsie*

              This this this this this. Three days is way too short of a time to need to see a doctor, and the grand majority of the time it’s an infectious illness that your doctor doesn’t want in their office in the first place. Bad idea all the way around.

              There is nothing I want to do when I’m sick less than I want to bus/walk my butt all the way to my doctor’s office just to have them go “yep, that’s a sickness alright” because so many folks in management assume a couple days’ illness needs medical attention for some reason.

    10. Apollo Warbucks*

      For me no it’s not a lack of trust, I can sign myself off for a week without a note, longer than that it’s a procedural formality that means a note is needed.

      Is there a policy where you work that says when a note is requiered?

    11. Dr. Doll*

      We have an institutional policy that being out for 3 days triggers the need for documentation. No trust involved.

      1. Windchime*

        But why a note then, if trust is not an issue? What purpose does the note serve, if not to prove that the employee has seen a doctor and the doc verifies that the employee was sick?

    12. F.*

      Not necessarily applicable in your position, Katie the Fed, since I assume you work for the federal government in some capacity, but many municipalities are adopting mandatory paid sick leave policies. We have an office in one such city where the law is to take effect next year. This means we will need to keep more detailed records of why people are using Paid Time Off (sick leave, vacation and personal days rolled into one multi-purpose package). It is going to be a hug PITA. We got away from separate sick leave, etc. because we like to be able to treat our employees as adults. Besides, if someone is going to lie and say they are sick to get a day off, they’re going to lie under this new plan. I’m not sure how we are going to handle it exactly.

    13. OriginalEmma*

      If the absences start become a regular occurrence AND if you’re not giving enough notice, yes. I’ve had to take an unprecedented number of single sick days for doctor’s visits (and I rarely took sick leave so I have years of the stuff) and fortunately have been able to schedule them out so that I’m not causing too much hardship. However, regularly telling your boss Friday that you have an appointment on Monday? That’s no bueno and I wouldn’t be surprised to be asked for a note.

      I have not yet been asked for a note re: my numerous appointments but I can totally understand my manager’s perspective if he did ask. I don’t believe I’ve taken more than 3 sick days in a row, which seems to be the threshold for requiring a doctor’s note.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Just throwing this out, FWIW. I worked at a non-profit. For various reasons, stemming from one event, I missed A LOT of time. It was a lot. I don’t think I have missed this much time TOTAL, from my working years previous to The Event.

      Check it out. Everyone knew the problem. They knew what was up and I STILL got called in the office. A verbal warning, I don’t get many verbal warnings so I was shook to the core. I have no doubt the drugs I was taking helped to exasperate my feelings and made everyone seem bigger and angrier. But I was still shaken.

      I took it one day at a time. I waited to see if their walk matched their talk. In my case, I had to make a stronger effort to not miss time. So, I did. The situation died down and went away. My suggestion is to get the doctor’s notes and see if that calms the situation down. It might be because some jerk five departments over is starting to whine about you. They want their ducks in a row because they are going to tell him to shove it. In order to do that they want to collect up notes- not to show him/her but to say, “We have been following that closely, we are satisfied with how KTF is handling things so we will not be discussing this.”

      My overall impression is that your work place likes you. I can tell you are a valuable employee. I would be shocked to find out there was anything of great concern involved here.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Thank you – this sounds very similar. It’s many things stemming from one incident. It’s just hard, and I don’t want to gripe too much but I just want to be well and not stressed about these things.

    15. DebbieDebbieDebbie*

      Ahhh…the dreaded “doctor’s” note. No physician wants to write these is my practice group, so these requests often come to me–a nurse practitioner. None of the parties involved ever seem to know what the note should contain. The employee calls or visits asking for the note because the employer is requesting one from them. I’ll ask if the employer is wanting to know if the person is under medical care or asking if the employee is “cleared” to return to work. This is often met with a shrug. So I will write a rather bland note in the absence of any guidance from the employee. At least 25% of the time I will get a follow up call from a manager or HR to request additional information however if it is protected health information, I cannot provide that over the phone. And if it is clearance to return to work, I need information about what the person’s job duties entail. So then I need to phone the employee to either obtain their permission to write the more detailed note and at times get more info about their job. There are also a few selected businesses that are absolutely horrendous and request that I change the language in the note which is so bizarre to me. For instance, I have a patient with a chronic illness that has intermittent flares. His condition is chronic but an HR rep tried to argue with me that I needed to indicate that he only had the disease from March 2-4th. Um no. That was how long he was hospitalized for a flare up of his chronic, lifelong condition.
      Most people apologize when they ask me to complete an FMLA packet but truly, it takes me ten minutes and I have never, ever had a bounce back of FMLA paperwork so I am always happy to complete it. For my own patients, I ask at the time of discharge if they need a return to work note and we hash out the details before the person leaves so they don’t have to track me down later.
      Doctors notes for cold/flu/sprains/strains, etc are just simply beyond ridiculous but I think AAM has addressed this well.
      Katie this is probably just a misstep on the part of your manager but I would be irritated as well.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Whoa – asking you to change the details? THat’s insane! What is wrong with people? Have they heard of HIPAA? Basic ethics?

        They ended up being fine with a receipt for my co-pay, so that was fine. But I can’t help think that your kind of thing is a colossal waste of time and money. I wonder if you could charge the companies a fee for providing it?

        1. DebbieDebbieDebbie*

          I think that’s why the docs turf it to me. I practice in a federal healthcare facility and none of my NP practice is billable. My physician colleagues could be using those 10-15-20 min blocks of time doing procedures that are reimbursable. In the “real world” of healthcare, there is no way I’d be able to see patients and bill enough to survive while dealing with that crap. I wonder if it gets pushed on nurses and office managers?
          Also, outside of physiatry/rehab medicine/PT/OT there is no training to medical providers regarding clearing a patient to return to work. I have had patients recover from a major heart attack and return to work in a week or two, others with more minor events years later are still pursuing permanent disability. Even after procedures that we do, some docs instruct their patients to not drive for 6 weeks, another doc lets the patient drive the next day. I have had zero success in trying to gain consensus amongst them.

          The hassle is hardly ever the patient’s fault, it’s usually some dumb policy or micromanager causing the kerfuffle but for sure the patient would be the one to suffer doubly to get in trouble at work while trying to recover from an illness. Really glad your situation got resolved and hope you are on the mend!

          1. LabMonkey*

            My experience in Australia is that it’s very frequently the office manager signing notes, and as long as they were on letterhead with my dates of absence no one cared.

    16. calibrachoa*

      Where I work, doctor’s notes are required to have paid sick days unless you have worked here for at least 2 years, and even then on day 3. And I know it is absolutely because they do not trust us, and I am not surprised at all. I work in a call center with contractor staff, most of whom are foreign and only here on short-term basis and treat this job with all the care and attention of a snot-nosed entitled suburban teenager who thinks they’re too good for flipping burgers. The lower down the food chain you get, the stricter this sort of a thing becomes.

    17. Tris Prior*

      oh god, this JUST happened to Boyfriend. He got food poisoning and called in as he could not stray far from the bathroom. His work said that he would have to bring in a doctor’s note or take the day unpaid, as he’s already missed work for outpatient surgery and the required followups a few weeks ago. He still has sick days remaining, but I guess they expected him to bring his explosive diarrhea to the office? So he had to drag himself to urgent care and get the damn note. For food poisoning. Ridiculous. And we REALLY needed another medical bill after already struggling to pay for his surgery.

  25. Bye Scott*

    I just started a new job recently. My boss keeps asking me if I have stuff to do. If I’m up from my desk I get the question, if I’m eating lunch i get the question, if I’m talking to coworkers I get the question…basically, any split second she doesn’t see me doing work. This makes me feel like crap because the assumption is that I’m slacking or that I’m not being assertive in asking for more work. Am I really suppose to be busy every second of the work day?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Well, it could be an innocuous question where he’s wondering if they’ve given you enough work since you’re new. But you can ask him why he’s asking you that.

    2. Ad Astra*

      I would ask about it next time. Maybe something like “You know, Barry, you seem to ask me that a lot. Are you concerned about my workload?” In your place, I would be tempted to make the same assumptions, but it’s quite possible that the boss is just worried that you’re bored. A lot of people really don’t have enough work to do when they first start a new job.

      1. AnotherHRPro*

        I agree. Start your relationship off with your new boss with open and honest communication. Ad Astra’s wording is perfect. As a manager, I have tried to make sure I’m keeping my new team members challenged and aren’t bored as I know when transitioning jobs you can get periods of time without much to do.

    3. CMT*

      First of all, can you eat your lunch somewhere else? When you do have enough work to do, but you’re just taking a quick break or whatever, I’d recommend a cheerful “Yup! Just headed to the restroom” or “Yes, thanks for asking! I’m on my lunch break now”.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Is she a new boss? She might genuinely not know if you have enough work. And if she is trying to learn her job, she could be overwhelmed trying to figure out what you are doing, also.

      Is she a worrier? Does she constantly point out the same concerns over and over? “make sure when you do x that you remember to do step 3 and 5.” It could be more of the worrying thing.

      It could be that she does not want to interrupt your work to ask you if you have enough work. (That would look kind of silly. ) So she is looking for any cues she can find that would indicate you might be running low and it would be okay to start a conversation.

      This may or may not fit your setting: With my boss, I thought about the work flow. It’s just the two of us and we pass files back and forth. I brought a tray in and declared it my work tray. She puts all my work in my tray. That worked well 92% of the time. She knew I had work. To cover the remaining percent, I got a communication book. She writes down what she wants me to do. I don’t mind her leaving it “in my way”, so the book might be on my keyboard or on my chair when I come in first thing. When I see it there, I know that is my priority when I start up.

      I recommend looking at how you answer her each time she asks. Give her a strong answer such as:
      Yes, Boss, I have completed A and I am currently working on B, but I had a question so I am asking Sue. [You show resourcefulness.]
      Yes, Boss, I have plenty of work, I still have C and D which should carry me through until it’s time to go home. [You show that you have your work day planned out.]
      Yes, Boss, as soon as I am done eating I am going work on E, F and then G. Was there something in particular that you needed me to do before that? [You answer her question and then give her a question right back, to show you are thinking about her concerns.]

      I know it is tough, but try, try, not to personalize these questions. Assume this is what she asks every new employee. (Until you find out for absolute certain this is NOT the case.) Let her have a chance to prove herself as a good boss, just like you want a chance to prove you are good employee.

  26. Anie*

    I’ve got a question about meetings!

    When I first started at my current place of employment, my position had recently been added to a social media team. In the beginning, I had little to contribute and the meetings were basically a half hour of everyone staring at each other and saying, “You’re still posting on Twitter now and then, right? Yeah, me too.”

    Well, like most people in a new position, I was learning a lot and sometimes feeling a bit overwhelmed while meeting tight deadlines. On one occasion when all of my deadlines happened on the day of a meeting (nothing of which was a surprise, but I only worked part-time at the time and meeting any deadline was a tight fit), I emailed the meeting lead and said I wouldn’t be available. Nothing ever came of it. They held the meeting without me. Lasted maybe 20 minutes.

    Looking back, I wonder if skipping the meeting was the best idea. That looks bad to co-workers and could make me seem unreliable or as if I don’t value the meeting content. I know the lead of the social media team never liked working with me (she’s moved on now), but I have no idea if this contributed. I think if someone tried skipping a meeting now, I’d likely look askance at them. A half hour is rarely enough time to make or break a deadline.

    But then, at the time, the meetings were largely useless and only occurred to show upper management that someone was thinking about the topic. The new social media lead has made the meetings engaging and every single person has new ideas and comments.

    Thoughts? Is it okay to skip a meeting if it’s largely a waste of time? Or always go anyway just to look dedicated?

    2. TB*

      I would never expect a part-timer to always show up for this kind of regularly-scheduled meeting, especially if I knew it was basically pointless anyway. But I’m not a manager.

      1. Jules the First*

        There’s a difference between missing one meeting because you have conflicting deadlines and skipping the meeting in general. I’d say you should go, on the whole, but it’s fine to send you apologies occasionally when you’re really busy.

        1. TB*

          Well, yeah, I don’t mean “blow it off since you work part-time.” I mean “you work part-time, so it’s even less likely that you’ll ALWAYS be available for that particular meeting, so it’s not a big deal to miss it sometimes.”

      1. Anie*

        Bahahahahaha. I have no idea why, but it NEVER occurred to me to ask the manager herself if that would be okay.

        Good point. Thank you.

        1. Oryx*

          I did the same thing at ExJob. There was a quarterly meeting that a team I was sort of connected with would have, and Dept Head would always copy me on the emails announcing it but he never said anything about my not going. Then Dept Head became my manager and announced a meeting and I seriously was asking co-workers, like, “should I go” for days before, duh, I should just ask him if he wants me there.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      You should tell your manager. I am a destroyer of useless standing meetings, and if they’ve outlived their value, it’s time to kill them.

    5. AnotherHRPro*

      In addition to asking your manager, consider following up with the meeting lead to see if you missed anything important.

  27. Kiki*

    How to deal with someone who uses buzzphrases to avoid things. As in “I feel threatened”, “I’m offended by”, or even “I have an action plan to” (when presented with things that need improvement). Years have gone by and nothing’s changed. Though there are some new buzzphrases. As a real life example of this…think Johnny Manziel. He seems to know what words and phrases to use to get people off his back.

    No response needed here, I just needed to vent a second. I feel much better now. Thanks for listening. :)

    1. Artemesia*

      ‘We need to focus here on the need to get the quality of teapot handles on track. I expect you to have a .05% error rate or less by the end of next month. How can we support you in achieving that goal.’ Ignore the BS or ‘validate it’ and then move on to the specifics. How about ‘I can see how failure to achieve job goals leaves you feeling threatened since of course, it does threaten your continued employment if you cannot do the job.’ (probably too frank LOL)

    2. Katie the Fed*

      “I understand this is a difficult conversation, but I would be doing both of us a disservice if I didn’t tell you what needs to be done.”

      Then try to make sure you’re focusing the conversation on the work, and not the person. It’s a lot easier for people to receive feedback when it feels like it’s not about them as a person, but about what they produce. I mean, you can tell me the paper I wrote needs work. But tell me I’m a bad writer and I’m going to mentally flip out at you.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        People still flip out–that’s one reason I don’t want t be a manager, and I don’t critique manuscripts unless I know the person and know they can handle feedback.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Honestly, the longer I’m a manager the better I am with having straightforward conversations. It’s really a skill that takes practice, and I think as a woman I’ve been especially conditioned to not offend people. But I’m getting much more comfortable with it. I think the most important thing for me is to not wait until the problem has become A Big Deal. I just offer a little correction along the way and it never feels like someone is a failure then. But some people just really can’t handle it. I’m not great at taking criticism either. Ah well.

      2. Kiki*

        It’s not so much flipping out as it is simply seeking a way to avoid the whole conversation. More or less a “whatever dude, I’ll say anything you need to hear together you off my case”.

  28. Jennifer*

    Help!

    I desperately need out of my public service job. I originally got hired to work on a teapot program, which got discontinued and then I got transferred into where I am today. Now they are starting up a new teapot program and asked me to work on it part time, which I am happy about. (They will not under any circumstances transfer me out of public service, though, this is in addition to my other 25 jobs.) They are, however, hiring two people to work on the program permanently. It looks like only the two new people, me, and the other former teapot program guy are going to actually DO work on the program, for the record, everyone else on the “new team” is apparently too high and mighty or busy or whatever to be doing it beyond the initial training sessions.

    On the one hand: I NEED OUT OF THIS JOB, I have *very* few opportunities to apply for anything I actually qualify for and am getting nowhere applying for things outside of my area of expertise, and I really do want to work on this full time. I’ve been so happy this week being in literally all day long meetings over this because it’s more of what I want to do and none of what I hate doing.
    On the other hand: (a) my name is generally kinda mud here thanks to public service and the interview committee already know me so I’m probably not a new shiny by any means, (b) I’ve applied for two in-house positions before and someone else in house got hired over me and it really really sucks to have that happen and I felt like shit for months afterwards and swore I’d never do it again (except well, I have to, see “very few opportunities”), (c) new positions are waaaaay above my clerical worker pay grade so that’s unlikely, (d) it’s incredibly not to their advantage to hire me for the job because then they’ll only have three people working on the new program instead of four AND they’ll have one less person for public service, which is already short staffed on a good day as is. I really want the job, but why the hell would they hire me? I can’t see why they would.

    I think I’m going to regret it if I don’t apply, but I think I am REALLY going to regret it if I apply, don’t get it, feel like a damn FOOL for not being qualified enough to do something I worked on for a decade, and then have to work VERY CLOSELY with the entire interview committee and the people who get the job, feeling like shit the whole time knowing they all think I’m not good enough.

    What do y’all think I should do? Apply? Not apply? Sit myself down with the program manager and privately ask what my odds are of applying and if I should privately know better than to waste my time?

    1. A*

      Apply. You’ll never know if you don’t try and, in the event they go with someone else, there are plenty of reasons they might select another candidate that have nothing to do with you. If you really find you can’t maintain a healthy relationship in that case, maybe it’s time to look somewhere else. It looks like you’re approaching that point, anyway.

    2. Argh!*

      Go for it, and if you don’t get the job, remember lots of people hate their jobs. I bet no coal miner thinks he’s died & gone to heaven every day he goes to work.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I agree. I think it would be good to protect yourself from more burnout. Have that conversation and if the answer is no, then find out what it would take to turn that answer to a yes. Sometimes when the chips are down, the biggest downer is not advocating for our own selves- that almost as bad as hearing NO. Take a step back and try to figure out what new ways you can advocate for yourself that you have not done in the past.

  29. A*

    I have a supervisor who is retiring in February. I’d like to ask her for a reference because I think she can give the strongest one out of everyone I currently work with but (a) I’m not sure it’s the best idea to reveal that I’m job-searching and (b) she’s not retiring until February. That said, I am currently job searching for something that better fits my interests and will position me better for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program when I finish my master’s in May. I think I’ve made it fairly clear from the start that I plan to move on by the time I graduate (and I’ve been here just over a year), but I’m continuing to hesitate on asking her. When I do ask, I’m planning to also request she not mention it to anyone else. I’m a contractor, too, which complicates things somewhat. For the types of jobs I’m applying for, this person would be a great reference — my other references aren’t in the industry, so I really want to add her but…

    I’ve heard suggestions that I shouldn’t ask until I’m far enough into an interview process where it’s possible references will be called, but so many applications require references right off the bat. Thoughts? When should I ask relative to her retirement? Should I not ask at all? I’d like to have her as a reference for the future, anyway, and once she’s gone, I’m not sure I’ll be able to get in touch to ask.

    Happy Friday!

    1. fposte*

      For me, here’s the math. Reference retiring + you getting ready to complete your masters = ask as she comes close to departure and request confidentiality.

      You’re already on the radar as likely to go, and you want to talk to her before she’s hard to contact, so I think you’re better off securing her agreement now then risking not getting it later.

    2. Jennifer*

      I’ve asked people for references before they leave, it’s fine. I think she’ll understand if you’re a contractor and graduating, especially.

    2. Exhasperated*

      Having this now – I tend to make a list of what needs to happen and create a water tight handover
      Also, countdown apps on your phone – gives you timings for how long you have left; both to get things done and getting closer to that light at the end of the tunnel :)

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      Would it help to focus on leaving a solid last impression what you don’t want is for people to associate unfinished poor quality or rushed work when they remember you.

        1. A Bug!*

          Agreed! When you’re having trouble keeping motivated, put yourself in the position of the person who’s going to be finishing this work when it’s not yours anymore. Remember, if that person is a co-worker who’ll be minding that work (permanently or temporary), that work is likely going to be in addition to their current workload. If that person is a new hire, then that person is going to be struggling to get up to speed.

          As someone who’s been on the receiving end of this equation, I can tell you that it is less frustrating to inherit unfinished work than it is to inherit badly-documented or badly-done work. I don’t care if I have to finish up a few things that could have been done by you. I do care if I have to do a bottom-up review of a file to figure out its status and what needs to be done. I do care if I have to spend time fixing work you didn’t do properly and apologizing to others for your mistakes. (And if I have to do those second two things, then I’ve changed my mind about not caring about the first thing, too.)

          If my predecessor in that situation had spent her last two days writing brief summaries of the status of each of her files, with important background info, to-do’s, and waiting-on’s, it would have saved me weeks of work. A global summary with the most pressing tasks across all files would have also been strongly appreciated. So that’s something for you to consider if it’s applicable at all to the work you do. Earn some brownie points!

    4. Oryx*

      Focus on making sure all your ducks are in a row before you leave and, more important, for your replacement.

      Assuming your job doesn’t already have these, I’ve been known to make master copies of important, create training manual, clean and organize desk space and files, create a list of important contacts, etc.

  31. Jerzy*

    Just needed to share with everyone that today my boss brought his gfs dog into the office, and it quickly shat on the carpet in the empty cube next to mine.

    I love dogs, but right here is a very good argument against allowing pets in the office.

    At least my boss promptly cleaned it up himself, and isn’t the kind of jerk to make one of his underlings do that for him.

          1. Jerzy*

            Yeah, it’s girlfriend, though I do like the idea of “German Effin’ Shepherd,” though, unfortunately the dog is so small my 2 year old son would probably call it a cat.

            1. hermit crab*

              For tiny dogs like that, my dad would always say “That’s not a dog, that’s a decoration!”

    2. Robin*

      In my last job, my boss got a new, adorable labradoodle puppy. Really, the cutest thing, hands down. The uncute parts were the crapping on the carpet and the biting staff members. Mind you, we were a nonprofit with children in the building every day and a 40 hour volunteer training that emphasized YOU CANNOT BRING YOUR PET HERE EVER. But, you know, rules are for peons. I really wished some kid or parent would have been allergic and complained, but then, they would only be complaining to the dog owner since she was the director of the agency.

  32. PX*

    Aah, late. 2 questions:
    1. Anyone have some good phrases to ask about growth opportunities/increasing level of responsibility in a job interview? I have one coming up where the position seems great, but I worry about getting stuck in the same rut I am now where after about a year, I’ve learned the ropes and want to do more, but the position is very much geared towards ‘Just keep doing what you do. You’re good at it and we want to keep you doing the same thing over and over and over again…’

    2. What level of support/feedback/input do you expect from your manager with regard to setting goals/priorities/your general workscope? My current manager is extremely hands off and I think my expectations of what to expect are just skewed now….What should ‘normal’ look like? (For context, things like year planning, performance evaluation etc are just fantasies to me. I dont even have a formal job description really…)

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      1. I would probably ask what the typical career path is for this role – or ask why recent people have left. If they’ve been promoted, that would be a good sign. If they left for better opportunities, maybe not as good of a sign for your growth within the company.

      2. I wish all of my past managers would be better at setting goals. I have no feedback on that ever. It’s a good thing I’m extremely self-motivated and driven by results, so I’m able to set goals for myself and measure my progress, but I can see a person floundering in companies that don’t set expectations or goals. I don’t know what normal should look like because I’ve never experienced it!

  33. Tiffany*

    How do you figure out what kind of job you want to be doing?

    I’ve managed to gain a lot of different skill sets, knowledge areas, and interests. Even my degree is more of a jack-of-all-trades type (Bachelor of Applied Arts and Sciences with professional development concentrations in Nonprofit Management, Volunteer Management, and Accounting). When I first got laid-off and started job searching, I thought that’d be a good thing, because it’d give me a lot of places to look. Turns out, that’s not necessarily the case.

    For example, I mostly studied nonprofit management and had an amazing internship doing volunteer management, program coordination, research, etc. However, throughout my college years (there were a lot), I consistently worked in customer service tech support (call-center based). That experience led me to applying for a customer support lead position at a growing startup (I would have led the brand new customer support department), where I made it to the final round of over 200 applicants. I was really excited about that role. Even though it wasn’t non-profit, I could see how it would be a good position with the potential to gain a lot of experience in areas that would translate well to the non-profit work I want to do.

    So now I’m looking at rolls like that, in addition to volunteer management, program coordinator, etc type roles at non-profit, and even a couple civic engagement Coordinator type roles in schools distrcits. With all this, I may not ever be an exact match with the wish list of requirements, but I feel strongly enough in my ability to do the role that I think it’s worth applying. I’m getting interviews, and even making it to later stages often enough that I don’t think I’m off base in my self-assessment.

    However, maybe I need to be a bit more targeted in my efforts? I’m 3+ months into my search, which I know isn’t long, but I just graduated in May and had a great job lined up right away, only to get laid off at 3 months. Unemployment will run out next month and I’ve got to find something soon or I’m going to end up working at Kroger or something, which I really don’t want to do.

    1. ali*

      Probably not helpful to you, but I’ve got a Master’s in Nonprofit Management, and I work for a big for-profit company (I’m sure you’ve heard of us) that supports Nonprofits. I have found that working for a for profit, I get the job security and salary I need, while still being able to feel good about what I do. I’ve got my hand in probably 100 different organizations at any given time and I love it. I don’t know what city you’re in, but we have offices all over the world. My name is linked to my email address if you want to know more about what opportunities we might have.

      Additionally, I volunteer on boards for organizations I’m passionate about – that has led me to both narrow my focus in what I want to do and put career opportunities in organizations I care about in front of me.

        1. Tiffany*

          Got it :). I’m in DFW, but not really close enough to Dallas that I’d want to make the commute every day. It’s about 30 miles or so of ridiculous traffic and construction.

      2. Tiffany*

        This is something I’ve considered and why I’ve applied to multiple positions that are for-profit, but heavily involved with non-profits and community involvement. I’m very involved with my local United Way, so I’ve also been checking job boards of companies they work closely with, since I know community involvement is something they care about.

        I’m not even opposed to for-profit work that isn’t involved with non-profit. I really enjoy serving on the committee’s I serve on, am looking for a board to join, and am involved with a couple local events. So, as long as I still get to do that, I don’t particularly care what my job is (to an extent. I want to enjoy the work I do of course and be gaining skills/knowledge).

        Mostly, I’m just feeling really indecisive. Even though I just graduated in May, I’m almost 28 and feel like I should probably have a handle on my life by now. I really have no idea what I want to do though. My major goals change every 6 months or so.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      How do you figure out what kind of job you want to be doing?

      I don’t know if this will help directly your situation, but I mainly figured it out through trial and error. I had one career path I wanted to do since elementary school. I went to college for it, went to grad school for it, did it for a few years, then quit…. then I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I just found whatever job would hire me. I learned random stuff there. Then I decided what I did was less important than where I did the job, so I found a school I loved and believed in and was a receptionist there for a while (my goal in life was not to be a receptionist, but I loved the school, and the work was thus fulfilling for a while). Then I managed to work my way into technology, and that’s where I’ve found myself happy.

      Again, not sure if that helps, but just in case it does…

      1. Tiffany*

        It does. I guess I’m in the ‘find whatever job will hire me’ phase. I’m sure I just need to be more patient, but unemployment is horribly lame. I stay somewhat busy with volunteer stuff, but I also see the inside of my house way more than I care to.

        1. Windchime*

          It’s really hard to tell, in the early phases of one’s career, whether or not you are on the right track. After I had my kids, I went back to school (“business college”) and learned some computer skills. I got hired into the Data Processing department of a clinic, and did mostly data entry and some work on accounts. I also got loaned out to the purchasing department where one of my tasks, strangely enough, was folding towels as they came out of the dryer (not sure whose towels they were or where they went after I folded them). I wanted to do computer work! That’s what I was hired for! But I had to do the stupid purchasing job for awhile anyway. I’m glad I didn’t quite, though, because the data processing job led to a job in the business office, and then some side work for IT, and finally an IT job that I love.

          It was a strange, meandering route that got me here, for sure. It was funny that I stopped being a SAHM to go back to work, and ended up still folding towels as they came out of the dryer during the day.

  34. Faith*

    So, I have a job interview next week for a manager position. It’s an all-day kind of deal, and I will be talking to multiple people. One of the people interviewing me is an associate that would be reporting to the manager they are trying to hire. I have never been interviewed by someone in a subordinate role. And in the past, whenever my company was hiring a manager/director/supervisor, they would have the team take the candidate out to lunch so we would get a feel for them, but it wasn’t a formal interview. So, my question is, how do I make a good impression on someone who is evaluating me as their potential boss?

    1. A*

      I had to do this as a Resident Assistant way-back-when — that is, interview potential supervisors. The things that made the biggest impressions on me were:

      – The candidate made a point to treat their potential subordinates as they treated their potential supervisors in the interview: with respect.
      – The candidate made it clear they valued our opinion and the time we’d already spent at the organization. They didn’t pretend to know more just because they had experience at other schools.
      – They asked us questions that we would have special insight to, such as the culture of the school.
      – The candidate made it clear they were excited about the position.
      – The candidate made it clear that they would listen to our concerns, etc. if hired.

      1. Jules the First*

        I’ve asked future subordinates about what they look for in a manager, and what, in their eyes as a team member, makes someone successful in this manager role. In one case, at least, the answers uncovered that I did not want to manage this person, so I withdrew from consideration.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think that a good chunk of management is service. The manager serves the subordinates by making sure they know the work requirements and what the company expects from them. From that perspective I’d want to ask questions about what a good manager would do to help her and her coworkers to succeed at their jobs. Maybe ask her to talk about something a previous manager has done that improved workflows, work areas, etc.
      It’s really a great opportunity to find out what the people feel is important to them to do their work.

  35. Rebecca*

    I am trying to get a handle on what rates of turnover are normal in an average office-based job setting, versus when I should worry that something is wrong. Our ~40-person team has had a lot of turnover recently. How do we gauge what’s acceptable in terms of how long people stay and how many people leave in a given year?

    Clearly if someone leaves in less than a year after hire, something went wrong. But if someone leaves after two years, is that worrisome? Or is two years a fairly normal stint for someone to be at a job? I think younger staff get the itch to try new jobs and new companies, and really *shouldn’t* stay in the same position for more than 2 years. With managers or higher-level staff it’s a bit different. Should we expect them to stay for the entire span of a 5-year project, for example?

    1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      I think it’s very industry dependent. The average fundraising tenure is about 18 months so I start getting itchy after about a year, and have stayed at all my last jobs for 18 months to two years. But I will says I was alarmed when we had about 5 people (not fundraisers) leave over the summer.

    2. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Some of it is that in some industries, the job market is starting to open up, so you can see what seems like extreme turnover because there are jobs available to allow for movement.

      1. Jules the First*

        When I’m evaluating tenders, I’m usually looking for turnover of between 10 and 15% per year. There might be good reasons why you’d have more than that (for example, you hire a lot of foreigners, you hire a lot of people who go on to higher education), but I’d want to see that reasoning and I’d want to know that your senior team turnover was a lot lower.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Two years for an individual can be fine. If, however, you have 5-10 people every year all leaving after two years, that might be cause for concern. I’d also worry if there are mass exoduses. The few toxic work environments I’ve been in have led to mass exoduses (regardless of tenure). In one case, it was an office of 13 people, and 10 left within one year (some had been there 5+ years).

      Turnover rates really can vary a lot, though, depending on industry and office type. I used to work in admissions, and admissions tends to have a fairly high turnover rate compared to other offices.

    4. cuppa*

      It depends.
      Turnover happens for both good reasons and bad in my environment. Some positions have good opportunities for advancement, and therefore good people get promoted or otherwise get better opportunities. Some of our jobs are just naturally built for turnover. It’s not that it’s a bad job, per se, but more that it’s a jumping off/foot in the door kind of position. Once you get the experience, you can move on to bigger and better things both internally and externally. Or, some positions or managers just suck and you see a lot of turnover. Sometimes you have to look at a bigger picture to tell for sure.

  36. Allison*

    (posted this on Coporette yesterday, but had to post here because, seriously, who does this?)

    Yesterday I was microwaving my lunch, and someone came into the kitchen holding a container of food, walked right in front of me, stopped the microwave, opened the door, and reached for my food when I said “hey!” and she said “oh sorry, didn’t see you!”

    Apparently, stopping the microwave early to take someone else’s food out and put yours in is a thing that some (super rude) people do at work, especially if they think the person isn’t there or isn’t looking. Maybe she figured I would come back, see it out, and assume it was taken out after it was done.

    1. Laurel Gray*

      This is so ridiculous that I probably would have said something along the lines of “you couldn’t wait the additional minute and a half?” or “please be patient and refrain from handling people’s lunch, it’s rude and gross”. I’ve always found that whenever people like this are confronted directly about their poor manners they are usually so embarrassed they won’t do it again.

      1. Allison*

        actually, I felt like my reaction was rude. it would have been better to say “excuse me, I was using that microwave to heat my lunch, could you wait for me to finish? I only need another 50 seconds or so and then it’s all yours!”

        my manager was right there and I worried I might get in trouble for being rude to a colleague.

        I did call someone out on rude behavior, once. A man cut me in line at Whole Foods, and at first I politely informed him I was in line before he got there, but things escalated and it got really ugly. Maybe it’s a Boston thing, but in my experience people tend to get angry and defensive when called out.

        1. fposte*

          I don’t think “Hey” is rude. It’s kind of an involuntary noise, really. “WTF?” would also have been appropriate.

          If your boss was annoyed with you for your response to this, that’s a real problem with your boss. Does she tend to police interaction that closely?

          (And does that mean that this person attempted the microwave switch in front of your boss, too?)

          1. Allison*

            She didn’t seem bothered by it, but since I was fired from my first job due to an attitude problem I’m very careful about what I say to people at work and always worry that a comment I make in the office is going to get me in trouble.

            1. NotherName*

              If I were your boss, I’d be more concerned about the behavior of someone who was rudely messing with someone else’s lunch than your involuntary reaction to that rudeness. (“Hey!” seems a pretty innocuous reaction to an unpleasant surprised compared to what you could have said. I mean, it’s in a “Schoolhouse Rock.”)

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Interjections!
                Show excitement!
                Or emotion!
                It’s generally set apart in a sentence by an exclamation point!
                Or by a comma, when the feeling’s not as strong.

                Sorry, but it popped into my head and I had to finish it. :)

        2. alter_ego*

          It’s funny, I live in Boston, and the last time I got rude at someone was in a Whole Foods (she was rude first). Maybe it’s something about the intersection of Boston and Whole Foods

          1. Allison*

            Was it the one in Brighton, and did she was standing there when you got in line, and did you accuse her of having a cow? Did you then start cussing at her and calling her a b!tch when she got snippy and didn’t believe you when you said you didn’t see her?

            Because if that was you, I am sorry I snapped. I was cranky but should have dropped it when you let me take my spot in line ahead of you.

            1. alter_ego*

              haha, no, I was in Dedham, and I was walking past her when I lightly bumped a hanging plant she had hanging off the side of her cart. I said “oop, sorry”, and she SHOUTED “you know, you should really say something when you bump into someone”. But of course, I a. had said something, and b. had bumped a plant, not a person. So I just sort of snapped “I DID say sorry. And it’s just a plant” And then we got to awkwardly stand next to each other while we checked out for the next 5 minutes.

              1. Allison*

                I don’t know if it was Whole Foods, or maybe the time of day. I’ve definitely encountered more rude people at WF than anywhere else, but I’ve also noticed that people at grocery stores during rush hour tend to be cranky, because they’re tired from work and probably stressed out from the commute, and having to run an errand during the commute. I’d rather save my shopping trips for Saturday or Sunday morning, or maybe an hour or so after the peak of rush hour.

                1. Anie*

                  As someone who has worked every shift possible in a grocery store for the last 5 years, I can tell you that the best time to grocery shop is a Wednesday or Thursday (any time), or any morning before 9.

          2. Rebecca in Dallas*

            Hahaha, one of my friends (who, yes, has a bit of a temper) got into a yelling argument with a guy in a Whole Foods parking lot. What is it about Whole Foods?!

    2. Audiophile*

      Um wow. How nice of her. I’ve never done that in my life. But I’ve mainly worked in places where there was more than one microwave or there was a crowd of people waiting to use it in an orderly fashion.

    3. Ad Astra*

      Didn’t see you? As if this would be a perfectly normal thing to do if you had walked away? Lady, unless the food inside appears to be on fire, don’t turn off the microwave.

    4. Sadsack*

      So how awkward was it after that while waiting for your food to finish cooking? Did she attempt any small talk, or just go away? I am betting that’s not the first time she’s done that.

      1. Allison*

        She went over to a table to sit with her coworkers, who all brought salads that didn’t need to be heated up. I went over and told her I was done and she was free to use it.

        1. Harriet Vane Wimsey*

          This is a little off-topic, but my good work friend put a foil-wrapped taco or something in the microwave. It lit up like a firecracker! She had no idea that you can’t put metal in the microwave. And she is like 50 years old!!! I was astounded.

          1. OfficePrincess*

            More off topic, but don’t put your work gloves in the microwave either. Or take the flaming gloves and throw them in the trash can. Our building almost had to be evacuated for that one.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Oh holy crap!

              At Exjob, people would heat up their food and it would splat all over and they’d just go off and leave the splats. Of course, when you reheat the splats over and over again, they don’t smell so nice.

              1. Winter is Coming*

                We have a guy who’s very persnickety. He will actually TRACK DOWN the offender and make them clean out the microwave. “WHO HAD SPAGHETTI TODAY??” We are a relatively small office, so he always finds the culprit. Needless to say that microwave is usually pretty clean now.

              2. Hlyssande*

                That’s why I always put a paper towel over the top of my container if I think it might go splat like that!

            2. Gene*

              As much OT as that, don’t try to dry your wet socks in the microwave. An Engineering Tech came in on a rainy day and did that. 15 years ago; and he’s still “That guy who tried to dry his socks in the microwave.”

        2. University Girl*

          At least she didn’t throw her food in after you caught her and tell you that yours could wait!

    5. Izzy*

      On the other hand, there are people who put their food in the microwave, go off and leave it well after it finishes, and then freak out if someone removes it. There was once someone whose office was next to the break room, and she frequently did this and went back to her office.
      So one day I see a baked potato in the microwave, which was off. I waited five minutes by the clock. I asked everyone in the break room if it was theirs. Then I took it out to cook my food.
      By then it had been sitting ten minutes. While mine was cooking, the potato owner showed up, got really mad, said the potato wasn’t done (apparently it needed to be turned halfway through or something), and stood there impatiently waiting for me to vacate the microwave so she could finish. She also would frequently heat up multi-stage meals, heating each dish separately and turning/uncovering/checking each one. And going back to her office meanwhile, so she didn’t have to waste her lunch break cooking. She treated the break room like her personal kitchen. We only had one microwave because it was an old building, and the wiring wouldn’t support two on the same circuit.
      We never bothered someone’s food while it was cooking, but if it stopped and the owner wasn’t present, it was removed, especially at noon. Too many other people in line, with a half hour for lunch.
      The microwave hog left, guess she went to work for your company.

      1. Allison*

        Oh I agree, microwave hogs are really annoying. And so we’re clear, I do neither of those things! I don’t leave the kitchen while my stuff is heating, nor do I try to make a meal during the peak of lunchtime. I throw chicken and rice in for 2 minutes and remove it promptly.

        I don’t understand how people can be that inconsiderate. Where did they learn that this stuff is okay? Did this woman come into the kitchen one say, see the microwaves in use, and hear someone tell her “just take it out, it’s probably done and they’re not even here” so she figured it was okay to do? Or did her parents just fail to teach her to be considerate of others?

      2. University Girl*

        My office is in the middle between my coworker’s office and the conference room which houses our Keurig, fridge, and microwave. My coworker constantly puts her food in the microwave and walks back to her office to continue working. It wouldn’t be so bad if she didn’t let the food sit and the microwave beep for ten minutes after it’s done. All I want is quiet!

        1. Allison*

          Is it possible she has no idea the microwave keeps beeping when it’s done? You could probably tell her the noise bothers you.

          2. TB*

            You could call or email her and tell her “your lunch is ready.” :-D

            There’s someone in my office who microwaves half a cup of coffee and then leaves it in there until it gets cold again. Or, come to think of it, stores their half-drunk coffee in the microwave and doesn’t heat it up.

      4. Rebecca in Dallas*

        Yeah, if the microwave has gone off and you check with the people in the kitchen, it’s free to take out. If they get upset about it, they’re the weirdos.

      5. skyline*

        Yup, if I find food in the microwave and no one in the vicinity, I take it out and heat my own stuff up. Especially since I’m usually heating things up at noon during the lunch time rush.

        On the other hand, I have something that takes a really long time (like the frozen soup I forgot to thaw the night before), I will usually offer to let people with shorter heating jobs interrupt me. I’m exempt, so it doesn’t matter if my lunch is delayed a few minutes. But my offering to do that is quite different from someone taking it upon themselves to interrupt me!

        1. skyline*

          Er, I should clarify that I will remove other people’s food from the microwave if the time is done. I never interrupt active jobs!

    6. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Yes, this is a thing! I’ve seen it happen twice at my current job. Both times the offender got called out on it. I can understand if the timer has gone off and the food is just sitting in the microwave (especially during peak lunch hours), but even then you check with the people in the break room first to give them a chance to get their food.

  37. squids*

    I have a job interview soon, that includes a dinner with the people making the hiring decision.

    The dinner is the evening ~before~ the rest of the interview.

    Any thoughts on what to definitely talk about, or definitely not talk about? I’ve always seen the meal after as a time to be social and more relaxed once the hard part is over.

    1. Jules the First*

      Try approaching it the same way – they’re looking to get to know you as a person before they evaluate whether you’ve got good qualifications.

      Steer clear of politics and anything hugely contriversial, but also have a few topics ready like local events (ideally vaguely related to what the company does) or things you know the panel are interested in.

      1. Artemesia*

        Also think about the personal things you might talk about that support the image you want to project. Often these things focus on personal chit chat. So what interests and hobbies do you have that are consistent with your work or show you to be energetic and focused or whatever.

    2. Dr. Doll*

      Happens a lot in academia. Treat it like a combustible family dinner with a new romance: Ask people all about themselves, be a good listener, share interesting little anecdotes in response. If the conversation veers into dangerous territory (politics), be non-committal. Have extremely good table manners. Use the time to evaluate whether you even like them, too; watch for red flags.

      Good luck, if they are sane you should be fine!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      All these are great, but like the office Christmas party, this isn’t really a social dinner even if you’re talking about non-work things. I’d steer clear of any alcohol if you think it might make you more nervous or too talkative. (That last one is me–I am a lightweight and the Drunk Who Never Shuts Up.)

    4. A*

      I’ve heard some interviewers will speak with the restaurant beforehand and tell them to do your order incorrectly so they can see how you handle the situation. I have no idea how frequently this actually happens, but it may be something to think about ahead of time, just in case!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Even if they are not testing OP with the wrong/bad meal, they might be interested to see how OP interacts with the restaurant staff. You brought up a good point.

      2. Lindsay J*

        Ugh, if I thought a company was doing this to me I would resign from the process.

        (And I think I do the “right” thing when I get the incorrect order; I *politely* inform the wait staff that that isn’t what I ordered.”)

        But there is no need for a company to test someone like this. That’s what reference checks and interviews are for.

        I doubt there is anything you will find out about a candidate from this (or similar tests like seeing how they behave while they sit waiting for the interview to start) that you could not find out from a normal, correctly conducted, hiring process.

  38. Tami Taylor*

    So, I was really excited about my new job at an advertising agency but now I’m worried about the noncompete they want me to sign. It says I can’t “directly or indirectly perform, accept, or solicit to perform any services of the same general nature as those offered by [Company] for any client for which [Company] performed services.” The term is a year from termination of employment, and the document also includes nondiclosure and nonsolicitation elements that I have no problem with.

    Will this make it impossible for me to work in my industry if I quit or get fired? I emailed the company for clarification, asking if the agreement was meant to restrict which clients I can work for, or if it would also restrict me from working for competing agencies. It’s been several days and I haven’t heard back. I’ve already put in my notice at my old job and have a start date set for the new job. What can I do?

    1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      I know nothing about noncompetes but it sounds like they’re saying you can’t jump ship to go work for a client. We have the same thing in place for our vendors: we work with consultants and part of our contract with them is that they can’t say, hire me within a year of me leaving my current company.

      It’s advertising – you could move to a new company and then they could land a client you’ve worked on before. There is no way to guarantee you could avoid that or even that you’d work on that client. If that noncompete were in place in Chicago no one would be able to work at all since the two big firms seem to just pass McDonald’s back and forth (with the same team) every few years! :)

    2. ExceptionToTheRule*

      It’s meant to keep you from poaching clients if you leave to start your own firm, join another local firm, or just head out on your own as a freelancer. The way it reads to me (IANAL) is that you can leave and continue to work, you just can’t do work on behalf of clients of your former firm for a year (and have them know about it).

      As for whether non-competes are actually enforceable or not varies by state.

      1. Jules the First*

        IANAL either, but that sounds pretty close to the one I had in my last job – when I left, there was a list of clients where I had to recuse myself if my new employer tendered.

        The important thing to check is what the consequences are…they might be minor, they might be unenforceable, or they might be very serious.

        In future, this is the kind of thing that you should make sure you get and check out before you say yes and give notice at your old job…

        1. Tami Taylor*

          I’ve never been asked to sign a noncompete before, so it never occurred to me to ask if there was a noncompete before I accepted the offer. Guess I’ll make a mental note.

          A quick Google search suggests that noncompetes are enforceable in my state, and the consequence of violating the noncompete is, according to the document, an injunction and whatever “damages” they could recover. I’m hoping the contract just means I can’t jump ship to work for a client, which would be fine with me. My role doesn’t involve interacting directly with clients at all, so I doubt I could successfully poach a client even if I wanted to.

          1. Winter is Coming*

            This could happen in the situations already mentioned, or it could also happen if you went to work for one their competitors. I would also want to know how far back they would go to consider someone a customer? What if they haven’t done work for them for five years, does that count?

            1. Tami Taylor*

              As I interpret it, the agreement would apply to current clients at the time of my termination and any clients we had within the previous year.

              I’m freaking out a little, but the nature of my work isn’t strictly tied to advertising. I could definitely work in a different industry if I needed to.

    3. fposte*

      Run it by a lawyer. It may not even be valid in your state, and you definitely want to know the implications.

      1. Tami Taylor*

        Would it be expensive to run that by a lawyer? I’m supposed to start this job next week, so there’s a bit of a time crunch.

        1. JM*

          I am working under a noncompete right now and trying to figure out how to leave. Please take it to a lawyer. I signed thinking it was really just focused on not poaching clients. However, I didn’t realize that our competitors are sometimes our clients because we sometimes team with other firms on big projects. I’m totally trapped unless I move out of the area.

          FWIW, I took mine to a lawyer a few months ago to figure out what my options were related to finding work in the area. He said that I could easily end up in court and/or losing a new job altogether.

    4. Natalie*

      If at all possible, I would consider having a lawyer look over that non-compete before you sign it. In general, you shouldn’t trust one party’s representations as to what a contract means since there’s an obvious built in bias. Non-competes are further complicated because how enforceable they are rests heavily on case law, from what I understand.

      1. Tami Taylor*

        So, if I run it by a lawyer and she says “This is a mess. Don’t sign it,” then what do I do? I feel like I have no standing to negotiate since I already quit my other job.

        1. Jules the First*

          A lawyer won’t tell you to sign or not sign. A lawyer will help you understand the implications of signing, and what your options are if you do sign and then want to get out of it.

          You then need to decide whether you can live with the consequences, or whether you would rather be unemployed (either now or when you decide to leave this new job). However, it’s worth checking whether your non-compete would remain in effect if you got fired – mine doesn’t, on the grounds that if I’m lousy enough to get fired, they’d really, really, really like me to start working for their toughest competitor.

          And you avoid this in future by not giving notice until you’ve got all the contract documents.

          1. Jules the First*

            Oh, and two more things – my home insurance has a legal advice line that covers this sort of thing (so check your policy); and don’t panic too much about the non-compete – your first one is scary, but they get easier every time you sign one. Plus this means you’re now good enough/senior enough to be a commercial threat! Congratulations!

          2. Tami Taylor*

            Thanks for the advice. Is it normal to get a heads up about a noncompete before you give notice? This company gave me a verbal offer, which I accepted, and said my formal letter would be arriving by email soon. Then they just threw the noncompete in with my offer letter and summary of benefits, which arrived two days after we’d selected a start date. Is that standard? Some of the companies I’ve worked for don’t even do offer letters, so I really didn’t see the noncompete coming. I wasn’t expecting a contract of any kind.

            1. JM*

              Now you will know, like I now do, to ask before you accept an offer. I was surprised by mine too. I got it on my first day of work.

            2. Jules the First*

              I never resign my old job until I’ve got the letter, summary of benefits, non-compete, non-disclosure, and contract (if applicably). Until you’ve reviewed those and are happy with the contents, you don’t have a new job, you have an offer, and an offer isn’t worth losing your old job over.

              I’m also annoying and insist on something in writing from my new employer before I will officially say yes – never start work without some kind of written agreement about what you’re being hired to do and on what terms. It can be as simple as a letter, or as complex as a 60-page contract, but if it’s not in writing, you’ve got no recourse.

          3. JM*

            Yes this!! The attorney I saw also pointed out some ways that my bosses could violate the terms of the non-compete since it was within a larger employment agreement (and thus invalidate it or at least poke big holes in its enforceability). This is probably less useful for you but is good stuff to know. Bosses don’t want to pay for my professional association dues??? Sure!! Let’s get that documented in an email, thank you very much.

  39. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

    So, this week we heard about Zuckerberg’s decision to give away 99% of his Facebook stock valued at $45B.

    …which cues my inbox being full of emails from our stakeholders and board members asking me “how do we get Zuckerberg’s money?”

    I literally wrote a stock email for our CEO to customize and forward. Every year we get the same question when some high profile person announces their philanthropy. Last year it was Michael Jordan.

    What’s *that thing* at your job? For fundraisers it always seems to be “have you thought about asking Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerberg/Oprah for money?”

    1. Kelly L.*

      “We should do a survey!” Everybody wants to do a survey for everything in the universe. We can barely order lunch without using Qualtrics.

      2. Katiedid*

        The surveys! For the love of all that is holy, the surveys! Sadly, I know you were kidding about lunch, but we actually did that!! We had a SurveyMonkey survey (how I hate that monkey!) on what we should order for lunch for an all day meeting, which was not even an all staff meeting. All that was missing was a survey of other similar companies to see what the industry norm was so that we could compare to determine if pizza was best practices or if deli sandwiches would be better!!

    3. Susan*

      Not an answer to the question, but isn’t that Zuckerberg “donation” actually some kind of legal-but-douchey tax avoidance maneuvering, where no *actual* charity will ever see a cent? Or have the tin-hatters snuck into my newsfeed again?

      1. Lily Rowan*

        There will eventually be donations, but he doesn’t get the bulk tax deduction up front that he would from putting it in a foundation. I think the truth is that the tax implications are similar with the LLC vs. a foundation, just at different times.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      OMG, “Have you asked Oprah” is literally the worst. She’s not even that philanthropic!!

  40. Anon manager*

    I need advice (or at least the ability to vent).

    I manage an employee who is extremely talented, but a nightmare from an interpersonal perspective. I’ve spent 2 years coaching and giving feedback to see absolutely zero improvement. Recently, he sent an email to my VP and me that proved this point. It was the single most unprofessional email I’ve ever seen – calling me names, blaming everyone around him for a lack of career progress, and issuing an ultimatum to my boss that he needs to be promoted or moved to another group. Not only was the tone unprofessional, the very content demonstrated the exact lack of self awareness that is causing his inability to progress.

    I requested that HR terminate him immediately. Insubordination and scorching the earth does not equate any working relationship worth salvaging. Our legal team vetoed the termination, saying that it could be viewed as retaliatory. WTF? Of course it’s retaliatory. It’s simple cause and effect. You lash out unprofessionally, there needs to be consequences.

    Needless to say, this does not sit well with me. He was put on a final warning, and any future unprofessional displays will result in dismissal. But this is why I’m really uncomfortable – I was advised (completely off the record, of course), to make his life a living hell so he will quit.

    Is this ethical? I really don’t have any idea what to do. I don’t want to give my employs an ultimatum to get rid of him or I’m gone, but that’s where my head is at.

    1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

      It sounds like he’ll make his own life a living hell and quit in a blaze of glory. He’s issued ultimatums…so if you don’t meet them, won’t he quit?

      It does sound quite yucky though. I’m sorry you couldn’t fire him!

      2. Anon manager*

        Re: his ultimatums. My response was, “sorry you feel that way. When is your last day?”

        Of course, he backed off.

    2. Anie*

      I would avoid ultimatums, though I understand the reaction toward one.

      I think , maybe, stopping helping. Stop coaching. Stop feedback. He’s made it clear he doesn’t want it.

      Stop being friendly. He’s made it clear he doesn’t deserve it. Just….avoid him. Not that that’s easy as you’re his boss. But still.

      Best of luck.

      1. EmilyG*

        I would do the opposite of this, actually. Stopping being friendly is stooping to his level, and no coaching, feedback, or expectations is exactly what some bad employees want.

        I recently had a problem employee with a lot of attendance, attention, and productivity issues that my predecessor ignored. I started making lots of notes to myself about things to follow up on in our weekly meetings and asking him to send me regular email reports of his progress. I followed up if I didn’t get the reports. I asked detailed questions about them. If he wasn’t in the office by a certain time, I called with concern to find out where he was. The great thing about this strategy was that it was equally good whether it guided him onto the right path or drove him away. I took the high road, and he quit.

        Not really the same situation, but I feel like being passive is just going to drag your problem out rather than solve it. I’d rather endure a tense few weeks and then move on.

        1. Windchime*

          This is such good advice. We had a championship-level slacker on our team. Not only was she a slacker, but she was really negative and behave so unprofessionally that she was unable to do anything but a fraction of her job.

          Cue new manager. New manager would not listen to complaints; instead, she asked for Negative Nelly to bring in a list of her tasks, organized by Those I Like vs Those I Don’t Like. The list never happened. When Nelly complained about not getting to do task X, Manager gave her an assignment using X. She was unable to complete it. Once Manager started holding Nelly accountable, Nelly decided to quit.

        2. catsAreCool*

          Yeah, what Emily G. said. Taking the high road and holding the employee accountable – that’s the way to go.

    3. Jillyan*

      Why would you make his life a living hell? Then you’ll be the unprofessional one. He’s on final warning so if he is as unstable as you say, he won’t last much longer in the company. Many people in that position also start job hunting so you may lose him soon enough. I know it’s frustrating and you seem to feel really strongly about this (hence, considering the ultimatum) but think with a cool head. If you aggravate the situation, it could end up backfiring on you, especially since HR is worried about being perceived as retaliatory or unfair.

    4. Kyrielle*

      Wait, they wouldn’t fire him over his ridiculous action, but they want you to make his life a living hell? That’s _not_ good management.

      Honestly? I’d keep working with him exactly as you have been/would have been without that advice. He will shoot himself in the foot soon enough, if he doesn’t quit on his own, given his current opinions.

      Stay professional, handle it well. You don’t want to sink to that level – you have to live with yourself after. You also don’t want your other employees or coworkers to see you sink to that level – the mud will stick to you even in the minds of people who think he sort-of deserves it, and it will damage morale. Instead, let them see you being professional, giving him that actual final chance he was given, and trying to manage him as one would if they were trying to give him a genuine chance.

      I think the odds of his *taking* that genuine chance are slightly below that of a snowball fight in Satan’s living room, though there’s always the small chance I suppose. If he does, well, that’s sort of an awkward win. If he doesn’t, far more likely, you and everyone else will know it was *purely him* that cost him his job. There’s a lot of relief in that.

    5. CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t think it’s ethical to push someone out by making their environment intolerable. Will your legal team terminate him if he does something again, after his final warning? He sounds awful.

    6. Anon manager*

      Thank you! You are all awesome! I just need to be patient and let this reach it’s inevitable conclusion.

      It’s hard to be the bigger person when surrounded by toxicity, so thanks for the sanity check.

    7. Brett*

      Our super awful employee in another unit behaves like this all the time. Sends accusations against people way up the chain of command cc’ing everyone along the way with emails riddled with threats, typos, and grammatical errors. Somehow he always survives attempts to fire him (thanks public sector merit process) and never leaves no matter how much his superiors have tried to “make his life a living hell”.

      Unfortunately, I think the guy has enough self-awareness to know he is an awful employee so the last thing he will do is quit. Instead, he made three different managers leave until he finally found one that for some reason loves him… and he got promoted by that manager into a newly created job class with a huge raise. I was qualified for the new job, but it would have meant being awful employee’s technical lead (wedge in between him and his buddy manager)! No one else qualified for it applied either (probably for the same reason) and he got it by default.

      IMO, you need to push back on HR to make sure that “final warning” sticks and they do not just keep waiting for him to quit.

      1. very anon for this one*

        So when I documented to hr that my employee from hell (on a PIP for the last six months continued to miss deadlines, ignore requests, lie about work completed and blame others for her failings) failure at work was impacting our reputation with stake holders, I was asked to assign “fake” projects so that I could document her not meeting expectations and there would be no actual impact on the department. (except of course that real work wasn’t being done, but she wasn’t doing the real work anyway) How nuts was this?

    8. OfficePrincess*

      From the sounds of things, continuing to set expectations and following up when he fails to meet them sounds like it would be considered “living hell” to this guy. “Anon is just so awful she won’t get off my back about the way I smear everyone and everyone and when I told her I’d quit if she didn’t stop, she asked when my last day would be. The nerve!”

    9. AnonAcademic*

      Just as a slightly different perspective…the legal team may have information about this person that you don’t. I know of a situation where a person was being pushed out of their job (their boss was trying to get them fired) but this person had recently requested disability accommodations from HR. In order to avoid the firing seeming like retaliation/discrimination based on disability status they waited until a scheduled layoff and then offered the person generous severance. It delayed the termination by maybe 4-6 months but avoided the potential legal hassles.

  41. Nina*

    AAM community- I’m so tired of Benin unemployed. I feel the longer I wait, the less desirable of a candidate I am. What can I do to stay positive during this time? It’s going on 6 months now. Im volunteering, honing my skills, but even those aren’t working and my volunteer period won’t be extended past this month. I have experience and a masters and I just don’t know why I’m not being hired (despite going on interviews to the Final stage.) help!

    2. Artemesia*

      Have you had a very polished friend check your references to see if there is a land mind somewhere? Have you tried a temp agency? Why won’t your volunteer gig be extended? That might be something to explore to get a clue about the impression you are making. Have you gotten any interview practice or coaching? Sometimes making it to final interviews and then not getting hired is about how you interview and sometimes it is just the nature of this tight market, but you want to make sure you are at your best here. My daughter had several final interview/didn’t get the job experiences until being hired at a company she now runs. So it may be just time and frustration and you will get there, but take some steps to assure you are not being sabotaged and that your interview skills are first rate.

      1. Nina*

        My references all check out I’ve had them checked. The volunteer thing was a favor from an old professor ; they have a grad student that starts in January.

        Thanks for your advice. I think after being unemployed for so long I’m lacking in confidence now which is something I can work on. I know I have a lot to offer so I’ll practice with a job coach at my old school and do some mock interviews,

        1. CheeryO*

          Try to hang in there. You’re right that the confidence thing is huge. My self-confidence was shot towards the end of my unemployment (six months in 2014), but once I had a job again, I started feeling more confident. I kept looking and didn’t put the new job on my resume, and I had two great offers a few months later, even with what looked like a 9-10 month gap.

          In other anecdotal news, my BF got a job after being unemployed for two years. He wrote a great cover letter, got an interview and totally hit it off with the team, and they practically offered the job to him on the spot. Most people really do understand that it’s still tough out there and that there are a lot of factors that could lead to someone being out of work for awhile.

  42. Exhasperated*

    I would just like to say a huge thank you to both AAM and the AAM commenters – thanks to your advice, interview questions to ask and guidance to ‘run, not walk’ away I have been able to:
    a) get a new job – promotion, industry I am really interested in and 33% pay increase
    b) finally complete my HR diploma
    c) handle my boss in such a way that I have negotiated an amazing reference, as well as continual work for an interest of mine which will increase my CV and add more strings to my bow without having to directly deal with former colleagues once I leave

    P.S. I found out about the new job and passing my qualification within 48 hours – have been celebrating since and feeling a little fragile

    It has been a crazy, emotional, hectic week and I don’t think that it would have happened had it not been for this site :D

  43. Anie*

    OK, second question!

    I work for a subscription-based publication. I know it’s not kosher to GIVE people copies, but is it OK if I were to bring copies to interviews as a type of portfolio (because it’s a good representation of my work). It’s copy written content and I’m not the author, but this isn’t something that would reflect badly on me, right? That’s what everyone does?

    1. fposte*

      There’s certainly no ethical problem with it. (I don’t know what you mean about giving people copies–I give people copies of my journal all the time.) How useful it will be depends on what exactly you did for the publication–it’s more common with writers and designers, but maybe there are other things in there that would display well as a showcase of your skills.

      1. Anie*

        I’m an editor, layout assistant, and occasional unnamed contributor/maker of charts.

        I just have gotten an overall feeling that it’s not OK to give out copies in a professional sense. Maybe it’s the hard line of “People pay for this; don’t ever give it up for free or no one will buy it.” That idea blankets basically everything I do at work. But…in a portfolio sense, the people interviewing me wouldn’t necessary care about the content itself.

        Thank you!

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, those are achievements worth showing off.

          We’re really careful about giving away paid *content* for free, but older print issues we’ll hand around like candy. Like leftover Halloween candy.

  44. Brett*

    So, I found out who was hired for a job that I applied for (I tend to hear quickly about all the non-federal new hires in my area in my profession since there are only about 40 of us compared to about 600 feds). Turns out the guy was a foreign national from outside the region, so I knew he was probably an H1B hire, which means an LCA was filed. Since most jobs here are federal with TS/SCI required, H1B hires for what I do are extremely rare. I looked at it because I was curious what the company eventually paid. They never interviewed me; a company recruiter talked to me and seemed bothered by my salary expectations and potential post-employment restriction issues.

    I guess something was weird in the LCA viewer I used that day, because I now realized it gave me the wrong LCA. I read that they had classed the position as a Level IV Programmer paying about 30% more than what I asked. Level IV seemed really high, but programmer was completely appropriate since it was all algorithm development and required multiple languages.

    Well, this week I looked at it again because a thread on here reminded me of it… it wasn’t a Level IV programmer. That was the LCA for a different position. They made it a Level I Computer Operator. They are paying the guy about the same as what I make now for a position with way more skill requirements. This is no way it should be classed as a computer operator instead of a programmer, and as a computer operator it would have to be at least level III.

    But that is about the extent of my H1B knowledge. I will most likely have a lot of professional interaction with this person over the next 3 years (the company has a policy against sponsoring green cards and has a reputation for not renewing H1Bs). It bothers me that they screwed him over, even though he obviously willing accepted the terms of employment. It bothers me more though that this feels like something that could contribute to suppressing wages in our profession in this area.

    Really don’t think it is my place to say or do anything about this. I know the last two people in similar roles with this company left quickly because the responsibilities ended up much higher than advertised; this position was at least advertised correctly. I imagine he will be short term too when he realizes what they have done. I will just file this away as yet another strike against them and avoid them in the future.

    1. Laurel Gray*

      I don’t know much about visas, I just have an opinion that there is some heavy abuse going on by employers and many in specific fields. I thought the original necessity for H1B visas was finding talent abroad for rare skill sets that were hard to recruit here. Disney and a few others have proven it is merely just a loop hole to find cheap temporary labor.

      1. Brett*

        This company at least is not very H1B abusive. Only about 1% of the company. This was their third round of advertising the position (and they spent a couple of months convincing me to apply). I suspect they could not hire anyone because they are competing with local federal jobs that pay more than 50% higher than what they are paying, but they definitely had trouble finding talent.

    2. Giving Tuesday & End of Year Giving*

      this is a common issue for h1b visa holders. they don’t have a lot of negotiating power to get more money and because they need their employer to sponsor their employment, they are often in a very difficult situation. as much as it sucks (and I agree that it totally does), it is somewhat common practice.

      1. F.*

        I will add, though, that employers are taking a larger risk hiring an H1B visa holder. If that person does not work out, the employer is responsible for paying their expenses back to their home country.

        1. Brett*

          This company is probably paying him about $24k/yr less than what the job is worth normally locally. The low end of my salary requirements was $7k more than what they are paying him, and I was aiming so low at my low end that I was worried that I was making them doubt my qualifications.

          The risk of paying his relocation expenses is probably relatively cheap in comparison. I tend to come out at the bottom of national salary surveys for my profession, and he is barely above me.

    3. Artemesia*

      Just another way the business people who run our Congress have conspired to hollow out middle class jobs for Americans.

  45. Lunchtime Blues*

    After reading the dog letter earlier this week, I felt like this group might help with a problem we’ve got. My office has a full kitchen that has long been the nerve center of the business. The owner stocks the basics and teams bring in extras to make lunches to share. People come in early and make breakfast, or bake treats in the afternoons. Meetings usually take place at the big table.

    Rather, they did. About three months ago my team was wowed in an interview by an applicant. We knew from day one she had a severe peanut allergy and we asked people to not bring in peanuts. A few weeks after she came on, our new employee went to the hospital after an allergic reaction. When she came back, she let us know that she was going to get more extensive testing since her allergies seemed to be getting worse. Since then, she’s identified a lot of food allergies, and has shuttled to the doctor or the hospital about once a week. She’s often gone. I brought up concerns about her absences, but she was very adept at steering the conversation away from that and making it about more accommodations for her allergies. I’m reluctant to provide more accommodations for several reasons:

    One, if we ban more foods our kitchen is going to basically become a showpiece instead of a usable room. Several people with dietary restrictions or other medical conditions have privately confided to me that being unable to cook at work, or eat certain things at their desk is really becoming a hardship to both finances and health.

    Two, I think this employee might be behind her allergies. I’m not sure as she is still learning job essentials and her training has been delayed by medical appointments and incidents. Her real value is hard to evaluate. Her references were really good – good enough that I honestly feel she should be more productive by now.

    I want to be compassionate and compliant with the law. But I also want to listen to my gut. In three months, my workplace has gone from a wonderful place to work to a place with a lot of morale issues. This employee really has significantly changed the company culture for the worse.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Is this covered by ADA? I have had food allergies forever – severe ones – and had no idea that this could be a legally protected issue!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It depends on how severe they are; they’d have to “substantially limit one or more major life activities” (such as breathing, in the case of the recent OP with severe dog allergies). Run of the mill allergies likely wouldn’t be, but if they’re very severe with dangerous repercussions for you, they might be.

          1. CrazyCatLady*

            There are very dangerous repercussions for me. I’ve gone into respiratory arrest (had to be on a ventilator in a mostly drug-induced coma for 3 days) from them. It doesn’t substantially limit my breathing unless I ingest it or am very close to being around it.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I have a ton of food allergies – a TON. Also a severe peanut allergy. What do you mean that you think the employee is behind her allergies?

      I don’t think it’s a huge hardship to have the employee not cook in the kitchen, and just eat in her office – that’s generally what I do if someone is eating peanuts in the kitchen at work. I’m so used to my allergies that for the most part, I don’t expect people to go out of their way for me. I ask that people don’t eat peanuts in my office or bring them into my office. I can’t speak for her experiences, but if I go into the kitchen a bit after there has been peanuts, it doesn’t bother me. If she doesn’t have an office, is it possible to give her one, or set her up in an area to eat where she wouldn’t be exposed to allergens?

      1. Biff*

        CrazyCatLady, I think the scenario here is that they are banning the foods that cause allergic reactions from the building entirely. That is, if the new employee can’t eat it, no one can. At least, not on the premises.

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          I thought it was just the peanuts that were banned from the building right now. Maybe I’m misreading though … I have an awful migraine today, so totally possible! :) So to me, instead of banning ALL the foods, it would be good if they could set up a separate space for her to eat, and a different room to meet in. I don’t know the extent of the allergies, but I wouldn’t expect there to be a reaction if people were eating in an entirely different room. I think Alison’s advice to contact a lawyer is a good one, though. I never knew severe food allergies were covered by ADA!

        1. CrazyCatLady*

          Oooh that makes so much more sense to me! My brain today… I thought she meant she was causing her own allergies or making them worse somehow!

      4. Lunchtime Blues*

        The way we’ve handled it so far is banning foods, and the reason for that is our business is pretty small, we don’t have a lot offices, and the kitchen is the one large room in which teams can gather.

        1. catsAreCool*

          Would it be too expensive to get this employee a small microwave and one of those small cubicle refrigerators? Then she could stay out of the kitchen and avoid a lot of allergy issues, and other people could bring in the food they want.

    3. Lizzy May*

      I think the fact that you’ve combined your food space and your work space is a huge part of your problem. It was working for you but now its not. This woman could die if she’s exposed to the wrong thing. You can’t ask her to do work in a shared food space while still letting others cook or eat things she’s allergic to there.

      The easiest fix is to ban foods that she has serious allergies to and take all meetings out of your kitchen. And call al lawyer. Alison is right on that. You don’t want to open yourself up to a lawsuit because you didn’t know something.

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        Sometimes space doesn’t allow for the kitchen to be anywhere else though.
        The meetings on the other hand probably don’t need to be in the kitchen.

        1. Lizzy May*

          That’s really what I meant, though obviously I was not clear about it. A kitchen is not going to move but the fact that work is done there probably needs to stop.

          1. Lunchtime Blues*

            I said this up thread, but our kitchen is one of the few large rooms we have that can be used for meetings. When we designed the space, we basically had a choice of a meeting room or a kitchen, so we combined them.

            1. INTP*

              It’s hard to make suggestions without knowing the details about her allergies, but would it be possible to give any meetings that she needs to attend room-choosing priority, and schedule any that absolutely need to be in the kitchen earlier in the morning before anyone has cooked for the day? (You could get an air purifier to run at night if that would make her more comfortable.) Allow her to skype or remote into the meetings otherwise? (I wouldn’t normally suggest solutions that rob the affected employee of major career things like face time, but it seems reasonable in cases when avoiding inconvenience to the affected employee means significant hardships to many others.)

    4. TL -*

      What kind of accommodations is she asking for? Banning peanuts may be reasonable, but most food shouldn’t need to be banned, only kept separate from hers or not used on her appliances/dishes.

      Other than that, you do need to have a clear talk with her about goals and dates they need to be accomplished by, separate from an accommodations talk.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I worked briefly with someone who had a peanut allergy, and she said she couldn’t be around any tree nuts. Fine, but then she started staking out people’s coffees and asking if there was hazelnut flavoring in them because hazelnuts were tree nuts and could trigger her allergies. It seemed to keep growing to more and more potential things.

        1. TL -*

          In the coffee? Were they sharing a coffee maker?

          I have mild nut allergies and can’t drink some coffees but being around them isn’t dangerous.

            1. TL -*

              Um. Unless she had a habit of drinking other people’s coffee, that’s irrational.

              Did she also forbid Starbucks? Because they have a lot of blends where they add nuts to the beans for flavor.

    5. Xarcady*

      Most food allergies require that the person eat or touch the food in question to provoke a reaction. Really severe peanut allergies can be triggered by the smell of peanuts, or peanut oil in the air (say if it is being used for frying), so maybe there are other foods that do this as well.

      But just having someone eating the food, or even cooking the food, in the office should not be resulting in doctor’s visits weekly.

      I agree with consulting a lawyer to find out how to handle this.

      I don’t mean to belittle allergies or people who have them, but this seems like an awful lot of new allergies, and very sensitive allergies if other people can’t even bring the food into the office, to have developed so quickly.

      At the very least, she needs to learn how to handle her allergies better. On another forum, there’s a poster with an extreme peanut allergy–she can’t go to restaurants that use peanut oil for frying, because just having that amount of exposure sets off a reaction. She works at an elementary school–and the school does not ban peanuts or peanut products. She has learned how to address the issue with her students.

      It would seem to me that your employee is taking the easy way out. Instead of asking for people to clean up carefully after using, say, dairy products, and using a bit of caution herself, she is asking for all dairy products to be banned from the office. That’s not the normal way adults go about handling allergies.

      1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

        Yeah, it feels like she needs to be part of the solution. Of course no one wants to have to eat in a separate room / keep their food separate/use separate tools but it does sound like a reasonable accommodation for her. Her office is doing what they can to make sure she’s safe; she needs to do what she can too!

        1. TL -*

          But unless she’s really allergic to something like flour, it’s hard to imagine how going into the kitchen would be a problem – most foods don’t have a significant airborne component. (Dairy, for instance, tends to stay in its container.)

          1. OwnedByTheCat (formerly Anony-Moose)*

            Even more so that she needs to be part of the solution! You’re right that unless she’s like…in the fridge slathering herself with dairy it shouldn’t really be an issue.

        2. cuppa*

          I kind of agree. I have a cousin with a severe peanut allergy, where exposure can kill him.
          I don’t have a peanut allergy, so I don’t know how much weight this carries, but if I were in the situation, I think I would feel safest if I had a separate space to eat and prepare food and remove myself from the community kitchen all together. There’s too much risk and inconvenience otherwise.

          1. TL -*

            I mean, peanuts don’t seem like a big deal to remove, but peanuts plus dairy plus nightshades would really start restricting the kitchen’s usefulness.

      2. OriginalEmma*

        I don’t know if there is simply more awareness about allergies, more allergies or more people self-diagnosing themselves with allergies. Additionally, there may be a “scorched earth” policy going on re: diagnosing physicians who aren’t sure quite what’s causing the problem, or what level of consumption causes the problem, so they recommend the patient to just avoid the item altogether. Or the patient misinterprets the doctor’s recommendations and imposes their own ban. But IANAD.

        1. Ad Astra*

          All of these things are things that happen, but usually with sensitivites to, like, gluten. Life-threatening allergies like this employee has are a whole different ballgame, and likely have been confirmed through testing with an allergist. And yeah, allergies and other autoimmune conditions are on the rise — possibly because of over-sterilizing babies’ environments, according to a lot of (but not all) scientists.

        2. blackcat*

          On the scorched earth policy: I really do think that’s the case. For many allergens, we still don’t have good tests for them (peanuts, we do). The only real test is exposure testing, which is expensive and risky. Basically, you sit and eat things that you *may* be allergic to while medical staff keeps an eye on you and has medication at the ready. Many docs would prefer to tell patients to avoid the possible allergen rather than risk testing that could cause severe reactions. The legal liability is a big concern since even the most severe allergic reactions are highly unlikely to be fatal when there’s already an IV in the patient and drugs are prepped.

          When I found a doc willing to do it on me (I had to sign ALL THE WAIVERS), my insurance company initially balked at paying (I was in a hospital for 5 hours, so the bill was a lot more than a usual office visit).

      3. Cordelia Longfellow*

        Just a quick point regarding allergies and weekly doctor’s appointments – if the LW is receiving injections for immunotherapy treatment, once- or twice-weekly appointments are the norm. It’s a PITA, and I’ve been doing it for five years, but it’s pretty typical.

    6. LisaLee*

      I think you’ve got two issues here and you need to separate them in your mind.

      The first is the food allergies. You need to, as Allison said, talk to both a lawyer and the employee and discuss what is a reasonable accommodation. Banning peanuts isn’t that big of a deal, but if it’s gotten to the point where no food (or very limited food) is allowed then other employees are going to have problems. You mention that some employee have their own medical issues that are now being impacted–you have to make sure to balance the needs of all employees. I have some dietary restrictions due to a medical condition, and I would be pretty annoyed if I wasn’t able to bring food to work since it’s not easy for me to eat out. You also might have people in your office who need to eat every few hours or otherwise consume food at their desk.

      The second issue is the employee’s performance. Can you meet with her to lay out what goals she needs to meet to be on track? It’s not unreasonable to ask a new employee to get on track, even if they’re dealing with other issues in their lives.

    7. INTP*

      Are the new food allergies that she has identified severe allergies where anaphylactic shock or other symptoms might be provoked by airborne particles or tiny amounts of the food? Or are they simply allergies to consuming food? That’s a major determinant in how you should proceed imo.

      First of all, while I admire you for wanting to be inclusive, I don’t think it’s even a good or safe idea to try to keep a communal kitchen allergy-safe. Not just because of the hardships that you’re creating for other employees, but for the safety of the person with allergies. There are zillions of tricky sources of cross-contamination (shared manufacturing equipment, tricky ingredient names, wooden spoons) and I think it’s unlikely that people who aren’t used to catering to allergies would not make mistakes. It seems unsafe to me to create a false sense of security by saying that the kitchen is allergen-free.

      That said, if there are airborne allergens, obviously you need to protect the employee from them. Given the space constraints, I think it would be fine to bring up the fact that other employees are finding it a hardship and ask if there’s anything else she could do, like wear a breathing mask in meetings, without pressure to say “yes.” If the new allergens are just about things she might touch or consume, then I think getting her some dedicated food prep equipment would be a good idea, maybe kept behind a lock that she has the key for.

      Regarding hiding behind her allergies, there could be another medical issue going on that hasn’t been diagnosed. Sometimes allergies might worsen when other immune activity is happening and there’s a current trend towards attributing vague symptoms to food intolerances. Having allergies, on the other hand, can trigger anxiety because you have to be constantly vigilant. So her poor performance could be due to something else that she doesn’t even know about yet.

  46. olympiasepiriot*

    Anyone heard from AlligatorSky? Don’t need a detailed update but would like to know she’s soldiering on and getting out.

    :)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe the two posters who offered help will see this and let AS know we are thinking of her.

  47. Coffee Ninja*

    I just wanted to say thank you to Alison & all of you – the new person in my office tried to start a secret santa and I felt comfortable speaking up & excusing myself from participating. I really cannot afford it this year (even though it’s “only $25”), and most of the people participating are above me and make more money than me anyway. I think my boss was a little mad but oh well.

      1. mander*

        Yeah, I’ve always thought Secret Santa could be fun (though I’ve never worked anywhere that did it), but I’d only go for $10 at the most. $25 is about the limit on what I spend on my parents!

    2. Windchime*

      Good for you! I was really encouraged when I used Alison’s script to opt out of Boss’ Day gifting. I was really just wanting to not participate, but my comment ended up shutting the whole thing down. I bet you’ll find that a lot of your coworkers don’t want to do office Secret Santa.

  48. Beancounter in Texas*

    My mother got an apartment in a desirable complex and it will be ready this month. She is moving about an hour from her current home to my city. Yay! Now she needs a job! I’m working on her resume with her, which is challenging, given her varied history.

    For 22 years, she managed the office for my father’s business, before they divorced. Then she pursued her massage therapy license and opened her own business, but didn’t attract many clients, so she closed it. She returned to school full time and worked an admin job, earning her BA in Social Work and getting her license in SW. She worked in SW for a little over a year before being fired, which came as a surprise to her. For almost a year, she lived on her savings and helped her sister (CPA) with data entry for a few hours each week. Finally, she accepted a job at Walmart, where she is currently a cashier.

    She wants to get away from retail, but the challenge with any admin job is her hearing. It’s bad enough that she avoids talking on the phone if she can, but it’s not bad enough to qualify as a disability. She is an awesome massage therapist – she earned a $45 tip on a $60 massage once! – but she’s lost her confidence at Walmart. She is so unhappy there, she is beaten down that she can do anything else well. Any tips on how I can boost her confidence and write her resume to attract a massage therapist job?

    1. Biff*

      I wonder if she could look into local spas/chiropractic clinics for a massage job. I know they often rent a room to therapists, but they present a united front AND they shuttle clients to the therapist. So she’s a contractor, but she doesn’t have to run her own business or advertising. If you have a resort or golf course or country club nearby they may also have in-house operations for that sort of thing.

      1. The IT Manager*

        My cousins owned his own massage therapy business, and now he works for a spa based in a casino and sometimes fancy hotels have spa services too. Perhaps a massage business like Massage Envy where she can be a massage therapist but not have to run the business herself. Not everyone is cut out to be a small business owner.

    2. OriginalEmma*

      She might also trying offering her massage services to companies that do “worker wellness days,” which can feature a person giving hand, back and neck massages.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        A friend built her massage business by going into nursing homes and offering free massages. I think the massages were like ten minute chair massages. I am not clear if she just offered it to the residents or residents and staff. Anyway, she had a designated day and time, she always showed up when she said she would. This worked out well for her.

    3. Sunny With a Chance of Showers*

      Sounds like she would need 3 resumes: one for SW, one for massage and one for retail. Maybe if she sees how fabulous she looks on paper, her confidence will rise…?

      I wonder if there are social services to help those who need hearing aids but can’t afford them. Or a payment plan, perhaps?

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        She already wears hearing aids, but her hearing is getting worse, not better. Cranking up the hearing aids doesn’t help, she says, and she really only has trouble on the phone. She can read lips as necessary in person.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It might be a good investment of time to see if she needs new hearing aids or a different type. If she has not been in a few years then probably enough time has passed that the technology has changed again to make it worth her while.

          I am saying this because it looks like more than one thing is attacking her self-confidence. It’s in these low times in life that we should invest in ourselves to buoy ourselves up.
          (Some people believe that when the chips are down you spend the money you need to, in order to dig yourself out of the the bad situation. Then in good times, you rebuild your savings.)

          1. Beancounter in Texas*

            I know it has been since 2010, because while at SW job, she tripped, fell and hit her head on an object, near enough to her ear to cause the aid to break. She had expensive aids – the kind that cost something like $2,500 – from when she was married. (She takes care of her stuff.) I know she could not afford an aid to replace it exactly. I will ask her the last time she has gotten her hearing checked. And maybe we should sign up for sign language classes if she’s already having to read lips too.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              The tech is moving so fast. She might be able to find something that works better for a lot less. So while, not the top of the line, it would be an improvement over what she has. I guess, I am kind of feeling for your mom. Granted this s no where near what your mom is going through, but I just got new glasses after hemming and hawing for months. omg. These are the best glasses I have ever had. No break in time, no headaches, nothing. I think I am in love. When a change works well, it can change how you feel about yourself /your setting in tiny ways.

              1. Beancounter in Texas*

                Yes! I know what you mean! I’ve resisted change for I can’t-remember-why reasons, only to finally take the leap and ask myself, “Why didn’t I do this sooner?!”

                My hubby & I are pretty much assuming we’re going to have to take care of our mothers (one or both), so this is kind of the beginning of that. I’ll add the “checking hearing” to the To Do List. I want her to be healthy, happy and independent.

            2. onyxzinnia*

              Turning up hearing aids doesn’t help because it doesn’t make things clearer, just louder. I like to compare it to listening to the car radio. If you land on a channel with static, you don’t turn up the volume, you change the channel! She might not even need new hearing aids, but just have the settings adjusted by an audiologist after a thorough hearing test. If they are 5 years old though, I would upgrade them.

              As for the telephone, some hearing aids have a telecoil program which can aid users in dealing with phones. It might be worth reading up on her particular device to play around with the settings.

              I don’t know if you have a Costco membership, but if you do, you can bring your mom with you and get free hearing tests at their hearing center. They also offer a range of hearing aids that are at a lower cost than you might otherwise find (my understanding is that they buy them in bulk directly from the manufacturers). No affiliation with Costco, I just know from personal experience how difficult and expensive it is to upgrade hearing aids since it is very rarely covered by insurance.

              I hope your mom can find some answers, hearing issues can really affect a person’s confidence in the workplace and in social situations.

              1. Beancounter in Texas*

                Thanks! We have a Sam’s Club membership (as does she, I believe, and if not, I have an extra slot that isn’t being used), so I’m sure the services are similar to Costco’s.

                I will definitely check out the telecoil! Part of her frustration is other people’s frustration & impatience in having to modify how they speak (slow down, enunciate better) for her to understand them, so anything that helps her is a worthy investment.

                Especially helpful is the analogy to the radio. I will pass that onto her as an explanation as to why it doesn’t help to “just turn up her hearing aids.”

    4. Beancounter in Texas*

      I didn’t want to get too verbose in my original post, but her philosophy is that massage is therapeutic, not just meant to make you feel good and relax. She had worked at a spa, whose philosophy (at that specific location) was more about turning clients, and she had other problems with that spa too.

      I’m trying to nudge her back into MT, because she can earn double what she’s making at Walmart and it doesn’t require telephonic communication. I’m avoiding spas because she has been burnt by that one spa before; I realize it’s baggage, but I must work with it. I’m finding the occasional non-spa jobs, and I get excited about them, particularly when they express the same philosophy as she holds, but she lugs that baggage into the equation, shutting down the opportunity before she even tries. I’m working with her on this.

      That said, I think three resumes will be the ticket.

    5. Belle diVedremo*

      One suggestion: Call around to find out about volunteering as a massage therapist in your city. Some hospitals have programs, sometimes cancer care places, sometimes social services outfits have programs. I assume that she has a current license, and has or can easily get insurance. My reasoning is that: she’ll be somewhere her work is valued, with a community of practitioners who know the local scene, can get a reputation/recommendations from the host group, and she’ll feel appreciated and useful during the job hunt process.

      You’ve given this a lot of thought, so if the rest may be duplicative.

      Massage resumes – you can browse around for websites offering massage to get a feel (if you’ll excuse the expression) for the terminology and the kinds of things people highlight in their experience. If your mom has any specialized training to add to her information that’d be useful, including in approaching places which might want that specialization. Eg, I have a friends with training in orthopedic massage, in manual therapies, pediatric massage, gerentology services, reiki, etc, etc. Some physical therapist offices have massage therapists, sometimes chiropractors do, there’s a medical practice here that has added massage therapy. Sometimes you’ll find a local outfit that houses a range of services – I’ve seen one with a shrink, a pt, a chiropractor, and a handful of massage therapists with different specializations – as independent practitioners but with a penchant for internal referrals. If her approach is primarily therapeutic rather than relaxation, she will have a different set of criteria for finding colleagues/employers than some.

      Is she connected with the trade associations? They’ll have information on local resources and communities as well as continuing ed. And I’d browse around for prices in your area so that she has some of that information coming in. Her massage school may have resources, too.

      If she’s a great office manager/bookkeeper, you might talk with her about her priorities for now. Does she want to look for full or part time work of that sort, and once settled develop her reputation as a terrific massage therapist? Once she has the rep and a clientele, she can look at the way things are going and see if she wants to shift the balance to part time bookkeeper and part time massage therapist, or if things are booming for her go full time?

      As for her hearing, two thoughts: can she hear a client speaking quietly while face down on the table? If not, how does that work for her? And, if she were fluent in sign language that opens the deaf community as a client pool. And a family thought: if sign language is going to become prominent for her, you and your hubby probably want to start learning too.

      Good luck to you both.

  49. Anon Cog*

    I would like to hear the AMA community’s opinion on my work situation. I work for a company that is currently doing very well, has gone through a few mergers so we’re now a large company. Great team, great pay, great benefits etc. However a few things happened recently.
    – We got a new CIO because our old one retired (good so far)
    – CIO met with the rank and file (i.e. us) to talk to us about his plans for the department (again good so far)
    – In the last three seconds of the meeting, he all of a sudden said “and we’ll also need to decide how we’re going to structure our work with the offshore team” WE DO NOT HAVE AN OFFSHORE TEAM. Everyone just stared while he said “this meeting is adjourned, thank you for your time”.
    – So a couple of weeks later, I asked my direct manager about this and his response was “nothing to worry about, we’ll all keep our jobs, this is meant to help us out” and then he says “don’t you remember the CIO saying in the meeting that we’re shortstaffed, we need twenty more people, and it’s very hard to find that much talent in (my state)?” HE NEVER SAID THAT IN OUR MEETING. (I checked with other people and no one heard that.) He had other meetings that we were not invited to and he must’ve said it in one of them, and probably did not intend for anyone to leak that out. Also, while it is true that we are shortstaffed, it is not hard at all to find twenty qualified people in my line of work in my state, or any state, so that last part really sets off my alarm bells.
    Question to the collective hivemind: am I going to lose my job? Whatever is coming, will probably take at least a year to firm up, but, from what I told here, does it sound like the end result will be me getting laid off? I’m a sole income provider for my family, so I kind of need to know.

    1. Biff*

      Two things: I was at a company that was all kinds of dishonest about upcoming changes. They were still actively interviewing people when they in the process of laying off 98% of our staff. I mean, it was ridiculous. They would promise people that their jobs were secure and then axe them a day later. It was a terrible experience and it unortunately looked a LOT like this.

      I’m also at a company that has talked about offshoring but never gathers any steam on it.

      I’d look around at other departments — are there a lot of offshore teams that collaborate with the company? If so, cool — your manager is probably right. If not…. if there are no offshore teams, I don’t think you need to worry about this coming to fruition. If there are offshore teams that basically took over functions — I’d buff my resume.

      1. Anon Cog*

        There’s nothing that I know of, but we are very new. We just went through a long series of mergers and now a management change. The resume has been buffed, just to be safe. You’re right though, if there are no visible changes in say 4 to 6 months, that would probably mean that they’re not going to gather steam on it.

    2. Brett*

      Where has the CIO worked before and what type of restructuring has he done there? What has been their cloud strategy and software deployment strategy previously?
      CIO and near-CIO people often have a very clear mode they use with regards to outsourcing (which also tends to carry over to SaaS/PaaS/IaaS strategies and sometimes COTS vs custom).

      1. Anon Cog*

        This is a great idea. I’ll try to do some poking around the Internet over the weekend. Been thinking about doing it before, but then you get home from work and there are a million things to do, and you forget.

    3. Artemesia*

      I foresee a future in which you and your colleagues ‘train your new offshore colleagues’ and then watch the jobs evaporate — or see them written off even before this event. This is how the US middle class is being destroyed. I’d be looking for something else so at least if this comes to pass you are among the first to look when other options are more likely and you are also prepared to go mentally and with resume in shape if things proceed in this direction even if you don’t start an active search now.

      1. RLA*

        Yeah, I hate to be negative, but this is what happened to me two jobs ago. We built up an offshore team that was meant to “help you all with your work. They will do the grunt work and you can do the higher level stuff! It’s good for you we promise!”. Except that after a few months we were all asked to outline what out jobs entailed and how to do it, and a few people were even sent offshore to train those staff. Not a good sign…a few months later the company closed two offices (including mine) and we were all laid off/replaced with the offshore staff.

        1. Anon Cog*

          I have a similar story, except it was a corporate office. My then-husband and his teammates were asked to document their work processes and their existing software to the last detail. They spent something like six months on that project. After they were done, management called a meeting and told them they had two weeks to find new work. We’d just signed an offer on a house, because he had not seen it coming.

          An OldJob lost something like 30 people to an offshore team last year, after the two teams had coexisted peacefully for about ten years, and the offshore team really had been doing grunt work. Then one day all of a sudden half of the local team got laid off. Again, no one probably saw it coming.

          Luckily for me, large corporations (which is what we now are) move very slowly in my experience. I’ve started re-reading my son’s CS college textbooks, will be reading Cracking The Coding Interview (that he also left me when he moved out) and such; and looking at job ads to see if something catches my eye. I’ve got plenty of time to get ready for the axe, if and when it falls.

          An old work friend taught me many years ago to walk into the office each day being fully prepared to be escorted out the door before the day is over. I found this a very good rule, that has helped me to survive in the corporate world so far. Not only survive, but grow professionally as well, because knowing that you may need to look for work tomorrow does keep you on your toes.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      While I don’t know if you will lose your job or not, it seems to me that your intuition is running on overdrive here. This means prepare for worse case scenario. We are supposed to have intuition or “gut feelings” it’s necessary for our survival. Never be afraid of a gut feeling- it is to protect you and yours.

      Next, it costs nothing to start looking around. Time is on your side. Right now, probably not many are seriously looking at jobs. This means that for a little while, you can have the luxury of looking for a better position somewhere. You won’t have much competition and you know that you do have a little bit of time before anything serious happens.

    5. Jen*

      I work for one of the biggest offshoring companies in the world. My company was acquired by Big Company about a year ago and we rapidly moved from an 80/20 to a 60/40 onshore model. We have finished making the major shifts/layoffs/decisions and are now working toward a 2 year plan to go 50/50 but with no plan for layoff. We are going to work on backfilling offshore, new reqs will be offshore only unless they are a very specific type of technical role etc.

      Our development team reports to me (well, the head of development for my BU reports to me) and this has been really hard for him. The other departments that report to me have not been nearly as hard hit, but even things like marketing are going partially offshore.

      If you are looking at new hires, I wouldn’t worry about your job. Clean up the resume just in case but pay attention to what’s happening and you’ll pick up. Also depending on your relationship you can probably ask the CIO or your boss directly. I get questions all the time.

  50. afiendishthingy*

    A sampling of faux pas by my new coworker Rachel, all from the 1.5 weeks she’s worked in our office:
    “I’ve got like all these designer clothese with the tags still on, I’m trying to sell them on Poshmark, it’s not about the money, I just don’t want them to just go to Goodwill” (a lot of the women in my office are pretty into fashion but it’s more along the lines of “LOOK WHAT I GOT ON CLEARANCE AT BURLINGTON”)

    “Maybe this is like such a [Richwhitepeopleton Beach Communities] thing to say but like… I could NEVER live in [InlandWorkingClass FormerMillTown]” (in response to me mentioning I live in InlandWorkingClass FormerMillTown)

    “Why weren’t you guys into anything normal??” (in response to my other coworker Jamie and I talking about how Jamie’s daughter loves bugs and snakes, and I loved bugs as a kid, and Jamie and I both liked to catch frogs and toads)

    And many more. She’s clearly very insecure and is trying desperately to make us think she’s cool and she is failing badly, because every time she opens her mouth something dumb and/or vaguely offensive comes out. We’re a pretty loud, close, intense office so I understand we’re hard to break into, and I do feel a bit bad for her – but it’s also hard to feel too sympathetic when she’s constantly insulting people.

    1. Biff*

      Oh wow. I’ve been the ridiculously bad culture fit in the past, and I think the only thing you can do is let her figure out on her own that maybe she should find another job.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yup, this is what I’m hoping for. The kicker is she used to be a remote part-time Teapot Associate whom I supervised, and I really favored another internal candidate for the office-based Lead Teapot Associate position Rachel got. Rachel had some slightly better hard skills than Betsy, the other, but I knew Betsy would be a way better cultural fit. Unfortunately our director was really set on Rachel.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        “Oh wow” is actually the perfect response to those comments. Accompanied by a judgmental eyebrow raise.

    2. Blue Anne*

      As a weird hippie kid leaving the huge corporate behemoth because I’m a terrible culture fit, it’s kind of refreshing to hear about someone who’s a terrible culture fit in the other direction.

      2. MashaKasha*

        As a nerdy middle-aged nerdy nerd who once came to a new job and found it filled with Beautiful People in their 20s, I find it kind of refreshing as well.

        Maybe Rachel used to work at a Beautiful People kind of place, and is socializing in the same way that worked for her there? just trying to give poor Rachel the benefit of the doubt.

        1. afiendishthingy*

          From what I know of her background (mid-twenties recent grad, still lives with her parents in Richwhitepeopleton Beach, went to expensive private school not known for great academics, probably didn’t have a full time job before this) I think she probably is. I think she has a very very narrow definition of “normal” because of this bubble, and she is VERY anxious to fit into that category – and doesn’t quite get that most people in this office have different aspirations. I can’t quite figure out to what extent, if any, she understands that her comments are alienating people. I am going to try to find opportunities to give some gentle nudges about the social faux pas, and some slightly less gentle ones if she makes another thoughtless comment in front of my employee that undermines me (“So like do you have a plan, or are you just like waiting [situation] out?” I replied “I am waiting it out, that IS MY PLAN” very calmly. She no longer reports to me but she is definitely junior to me and it was her first time meeting a client I’ve been with for over a year. No no no. But that is a different story)

    3. fposte*

      Oh, Rachel. Is she sheltered and newish to the workforce, or is this a hardened characteristic? If it’s the first, I might do her a kindness and try to give her some quick insight (“Rachel, denigrating statements like that make you sound really thoughtless, because they mean you don’t consider lives different than yours as being as valuable; I’d like to think that’s not who you really are”). If it’s the second, I might not bother.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        She is definitely very sheltered and is in her mid-twenties. She added me on FB and I may have then stalked her extensively and… it’s pretty bad, in terms of 1)un-ironically admiring the Kardashians (2)countless more examples of classism (3) casual Islamophobia (4) glibly discounting examples of subtle racism in the media. So I think there may be some hope for her to grow, but I’m not sure she sees a need to.

        1. Biff*

          Uhm. UHM.

          First off, I’d de-friend her. It sounds like that will be a source of fuel for a fire you don’t want at the office. I second the advice from Ann and Fpost.

          1. MashaKasha*

            +1000 to defriending. I added tons of coworkers back in the day, and have regretted it since. Especially with a coworker like Rachel, I wouldn’t give her even the slightest chance (due to, say, a FB glitch that overrides privacy settinds etc) to see anything on your page or any of your activity.

          2. afiendishthingy*

            but I kind of like to look at her FB for the same reason MOST people watch the Kardashians – it’s just such a train wreck I can’t look away.

            1. afiendishthingy*

              … This is kind of an asshole move on my part. I 100% recognize that… but I’m not ready to give up the opportunity just yet

            2. catsAreCool*

              You might try unfollowing her. If you do that, I think you can still check on her page when you want, but it’s not constantly in your face.

        2. fposte*

          Though, you know, it’s okay to unironically admire the Kardashians. You don’t want to buy into the same classism stuff she has going and just take it in the other direction.

        3. jhhj*

          There’s a lot to be impressed at from the Kardashians. I’m not terribly interested in them, but they’ve done impressive work in PR and running their own empire. The other stuff are problems, though, and I grant that most people who are impressed by the Kardashians aren’t impressed by their business acumen.

          1. pony tailed wonder*

            I feel the same way about Paris Hilton. Not a bad life for a high school drop out with ADD. She knows what sells and she is driven.

          2. Afiendishthingy*

            Ok, that’s fair. I shouldn’t have conflated non-ironic admiration of the Kardashians with general cluelessness/classism. It’s just that in this case. Many of Rachel’s Kardashian posts showcase Rachel’s total lack of awareness of the impact of race and class issues. And not for nothing… We work at a non profit human service agency!

    5. OriginalEmma*

      “That’s a really rude thing to say about someone’s [hometown], [hobby], etc.” And let her squirm.

    6. Lillian McGee*

      It was such an epiphany for me when I realized that behavior like hers comes from insecurity. I used to take comments like those so SO personally until I finally figured it out. Would have been nice to know back in high school…

      1. Windchime*

        I used to work with someone like this. She came off as so snooty and uppity that she was not well-liked at work. She and I were hired at the same time and had kids the same age, so we were casual friends for a long time. We grew closer later because I really did think that her snooty demeanor was because of insecurity but later I realized…..nope, she’s just snooty. She goes into deep debt to buy expensive designer stuff that she can’t afford and truly acts like she thinks she is better than other people. I finally gave her the African Violet* when she said something callus about a close friend of mine who was going through a horrible, horrible time.

        *see Captain Awkward regarding the African Violet of friendship.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      It might fly right over her head, but you could try something like this:

      “Rachel, when you point out how different people are from you it causes people to feel awkward. People tend to find affinity for people on the basis of what they have in common. Finding things in common with your coworkers is a good general workplace skill to have. You will find that it makes tasks and projects flow easier. It makes the workday less long and in some cases can even produce a better product/service. If you put the time into develop this skill you will find that you will use it for your entire working life.

      Additionally, every employee at any company is being compensated, in part, to get along with others. So every time you point out to people how you are different from them, they feel distanced from you. Overtime this can erode your work relationships and, in turn, impact your reputation. You may become known as awkward to work with or difficult to converse with, and this is not something you want.

      In short, Rachel, try to find things in common with other people instead of pointing out how different you are from them.”

  51. ali*

    My manager left about a month and a half ago, and I’ve taken over about 1/4 of his duties until a new manager is found (and quite likely on-going after that). So at the moment, I’m expected to be doing my own job (and its our busiest time of year, we’re already backlogged until the end of January) in addition to this extra work, which isn’t easy work but there’s absolutely no one else in the company who can do it. I would have to train the new manager how to do it.

    At what point can I say to the interim manager (a senior VP who I’ve had virtually no interaction with ever) that I want more money if I’m going to keep doing this, or that we need to hire an additional person (or at least an intern) to take on the work that is getting dropped? Do I need to wait until the new manager is hired? That’s looking like mid-late January at this point, as apparently they don’t feel they have any qualified applicants yet.

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      If they’re looking to hire someone by the end of January, that would be a few months of doing this extra work. I don’t think that’s enough time to warrant asking for more money. But I would talk to your manager about how the workload isn’t manageable right now and some things are getting dropped, and I would ask if they are still planning to hire someone new in January.

      1. voyager1*

        You need to make sure that the new manager actually takes over these duties. If that doesn’t happen, then you need to have the “more money” convo. However they may not give you anything, be prepared for that and plan your next moves accordingly.

        1. ali*

          yeah, I guess that’s what I mean, I think this is stuff that is going to end up on me permanently, regardless of new manager. I’m fine with continuing to do it if either my regular workload gets smaller (ie, jobs tasked to someone else) OR if I get more money. But if things are expected to continue as is for the unforseeable future, I’m not going to do it anymore.

          1. onyxzinnia*

            What if you asked to move into the manager role full-time (and receive the raise that comes with it) and offer to help find your replacement? It’s probably easier to find a candidate to fill the more junior position.

  52. olympiasepiriot*

    Need to vent about another company’s management: A friend’s office moved to my office neighborhood. We’ve had 3 (!) planned lunch dates in a week and a half get pushed off at last minute by “sudden emergency meeting during lunch that we only decided to announce at 10:45”.

    I work in an industry that can have actual emergencies and I have a handful of first responder certs of various types (no, not medical…but I know where to find info in the NIOSH Handbook really well) and Even We get to take lunch normally!!

    3 postponements in 7 workdays is a bit much.

    Keeping my fingers crossed for Monday.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That used to happen to me ALL THE TIME. I would have a lunch planned, look forward to it for ages, then get a call at 9:30– “Can you present at a Lunch and Learn today?” “I have lunch plans” was not an appropriate response in that office. I feel bad for your friend– I’ll keep those fingers crossed for you both!

      1. olympiasepiriot*

        Yeah, I feel bad for her, too. Plus, I always bring my own lunch unless a lunch out is planned…so this is 3 lunches I’ve had to go buy when I have something in the fridge at home I could have brought. Her boss owes me money!!!
        :-p

        1. Rebecca in Dallas*

          That’s annoying! Can you bring your leftovers anyway? That way if she cancels, you have something to eat. And if she doesn’t, then you have lunch for tomorrow!

          1. olympiasepiriot*

            I *will* be doing that on Monday. Of course, that’ll guarantee we DO get to go for lunch. (Like, if you need rain, pack a picnic!)

            She’s in a biz, though, that really shouldn’t be having so many emergencies… Makes me think Bad Time Management At The Top.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you see something three times you have a pattern. Having an established pattern with a negative results each time, means change something that you are doing. If she fails to make this next lunch, ask her what the two of you will do differently so that you do not need all these last minute cancellations. It could be that you both bring lunches and eat together somewhere. It could be that coffee break at 2 pm works better than an entire lunch. And it could be that moving into the new office has caused more upheaval than she ever anticipated and you need to wait a month or so before trying again.

      1. olympiasepiriot*

        Oh we’ve already strategized all that. Her company always has crazy deadlines (advertising, they loooove to mess with your life, this kind of last minute thing seems very common in that field, as seen from the outside) and because they’ve now moved close to my office, I offered to take her to local lunch places so she’d get to know the area.

        If it was just about us hanging together, we’d do that in our home nabe.

    3. Hlyssande*

      If she doesn’t already, suggest that she block out her lunch time as ‘busy’ in her calendar every day. Sometimes people just don’t think when scheduling stuff.

      But also, yeah. A conversation is definitely needed between you two. If this is a sort of recent development in her work, she may also want to talk to her manager.

      1. olympiasepiriot*

        Not recent, unfortunately. And, from what she’s said over the years, I suspect that blocking out time in her calendar would be overridden with a team of Percherons newly shod.

  53. Anonducator for this*

    I supervise student workers at a University. One of my students, whom I’ve been supervising/working with for a few years, mentioned that they were living in their car over break. This person lost their single parent earlier in the year and the family home is no longer the family home (I hope that makes sense – trying to be intentionally but not unhelpfully vague). There isn’t really family in the area so this break is just long enough to be a problem but too short to justify traveling across the US to stay with what family they do have (and I don’t think they can afford to do that anyways). I’ve put out feelers and have been discreetly checking around for options so they aren’t stuck spending the much longer winter break in their car.

    So far, I’ve discovered 1. staying on break free of charge and putting together gift cards for local restaurants (if student life won’t waive the fee, I can get the fee covered; the deadline has not passed for them to request to stay over the break), gas cards/vouchers through an agency I used to work for to at least keep the car warm, and offering up my guest room. I thought about seeing if anyone would need a house sitter over break, but I’m not sure where to look for that (maybe I could suggest it and point them in the direction of …is there a website for that?) Other tips/options welcome! I get the sense that they don’t feel comfortable sharing their situation and don’t see traditional social service options as options.

    I would LOVE any tips about how to approach the conversation. Email or phone? We don’t work in the same building, so face-to-face conversations are rare and may come across as weird or overbearing. There is no EAP to refer this person to and there isn’t really one person who makes arrangements for situations like this that I could refer them to.

    1. A*

      My school had a “secret” organization (in that the identities of the members were secret, not the organization itself) which had emergency funds for students who needed to travel home or had some other emergency fund need. They had to apply for it, but I heard it did well for those who needed it. If your school has something like that, maybe just say, “Hey, I remember you mentioning you didn’t have a place to go for break. If you’re in the same situation for winter break, I wanted to remind you about X. I’d hate for you to spend it alone.” And then leave it.

    2. Phyllis*

      Check with your student life/affairs office–it may be that McKinney-Vento (federal law regarding homeless students) would come into play here. If so, there are resources available to assist.

      1. Alma*

        There were students, who due to international travel, were not going to leave campus for fall break, winter break (a month long), or spring break. The University had a list of professors, other University workers, and members of the community who would welcome a student into the family during that time.

        That is not a bad idea for any reason – to have a list of families, perhaps solicited through community service groups, faith groups, and friends of friends who would be willing to be family to a student for several years. I would have loved to have a retired couple, a family with or without children, a widow, to have dinner with one night a week (and maybe run a load or three of laundry while I was at it!). I was 15 hrs (or an expensive plane ticket) away from home.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Could this person also find housing sitting/pet sitting jobs? I remember those were pretty frequently asked about at my undergrad.

    4. Brett*

      Because I was a winter sport athlete, I had to be on campus nearly all of winter break (I only had Christmas day off). This was actually a really common problem for wrestlers and basketball players living in the dorms who had competitions throughout winter break while the dorms were closed.

      I found out that many fraternities on campus were perfectly happy to allow me to stay there for free and house sit during break. The one I stayed at most breaks even told me I could eat anything in the kitchen! I learned about this through other athletes who were in the fraternities, but if you have a campus greek organization they might be able to help look into this.

    5. MaryMary*

      Yes, reach out to the student affairs office or whatever it’s called at your university. I worked for the Dean of Students’ Office when I was in college, and the Assistant Dean was awesome with situations like this. Your employee can’t be the only one who needs to stay on campus over break (I’m thinking of international students, maybe student athletes…), I’m sure student affairs or res life could come up with some sort of solution.

    6. Artemesia*

      This is a bog standard problem; there will be students in this situation all the time. A random professor shouldn’t have to figure out how to invent the wheel here. Get with the Dean of Students, or Student Housing or whomever IS in charge of student issues and find out who to send the student to and /or what the options are.

    7. BuildMeUp*

      Since they mentioned it directly to you (and you didn’t just happen to find out), I think you can just give them a call and say you got to thinking about their situation and realized you know of some resources that could help. Ask if it would be okay for you to meet up with them for coffee somewhere on campus, or for you to send them an email about it. If they say no, don’t push, but say the offer is open if they change their mind.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I’d check the local churches that have active congregations (people are doing things), see if the pastor has any ideas.

      If the pastor does have an idea, a way to present the idea might be, “My friend, Pastor Bob, came to me the other day because he is concerned for his friend (congregation member), Jane. Jane needs a [house sitter, pet caretaker, home health aid] over the break period and he was wondering if I knew anyone who could pitch in and help out. I thought maybe you would be at least interested in talking to Jane to see if this is something you’d want to help out with.”

      The trick here is to get Pastor Bob on board with how you are presenting this so you both are on the same page and saying the same thing.

    9. Schuyler*

      I am just now reading this thread, so you may have already done this, but make sure you or the student speak with the financial aid office about this situation too. Students are required to report parent information on their FAFSA, and if your student did (if the parent was still alive when it was done) the office may be able to make changes to the FAFSA (taking out the parent info) which may or may not result in eligibility for more aid. While we can only do dependency overrides in certain situations this may well be one. There are some financial aid folk who are really uncomfortable in this area because we are used to requiring boatloads of documentation for compliance & auditing purposes, whereas dealing with unaccompanied homeless youth there’s a lot more ambiguity and often no documentation beyond the meeting with the fin aid staff. But if it results in a student getting a larger Pell grant or something, it’s worth it.

      The National Association for the Education of Homeless Children & Youth is a good resource for how to help support homeless youth, and the director of higher ed initiatives (Cyekeia Lee) may be able to help if you ever have questions about how you can start support students experiencing homelessness. Clare Cady has also done a lot to educate higher ed folk about students who are homeless or experiencing food insecurity, so you may want to search for her journal article(s).

  54. CrazyCatLady*

    I asked this last week, but it was a slow week and I didn’t get any answers, so I’ll try again.

    Has anyone here taken the APICS CSCP exam? I’m studying for it now and am really struggling. I understand the material but the way they phrase questions in the practice exams is not intuitive at all for me. It’s making me feel so badly about myself because I don’t usually struggle with things! Just looking for some encouragement or tips!

    1. A*

      If you can understand the question enough to rephrase it for yourself, do it. I used to do that a lot. Even if you can just pick out words, grab some synonyms, and rephrase it that way, it can lead you toward answering the question well.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        I try that and I’ve usually been pretty good at taking multiple choice exams. I guess it’s not so much the questions, but the answers that are really difficult to determine because so many seem correct and often, to me, one doesn’t even seem more right than the other. I can usually narrow it down to 2 answers by the process of elimination but I’m getting so stuck and discouraged.

    2. PEBCAK*

      Make sure you are using the real-deal prep materials. There is a ton of stuff online that is utter garbage.

      Read the question and think about the answer BEFORE looking at the answer choices.

      Make sure you have the dictionary DOWN PAT. A large part of the exam is knowing the vocab used by APICS, which may or may not be the same thing used at your particular organization.

      1. CrazyCatLady*

        Thanks! I am using the real prep materials – I actually haven’t finished all of it yet, but have tried the practice tests just to see where I’m at. I’ve only been scoring around 50% (I’ve only read around 50% of the material so far, though). There are some online flashcard tests that seem to be pretty accurate to the terminology in the dictionary that I’ve been trying. You’re right on about the vocab is not the same as what’s used in my org.

        The test questions I have a tough time with are the ones that ask a question, and then ask what would be reasons/solution/whatever… and they list 4 possible answers, and you have to pick something like: (1) answers a & b, (2) answers a, b, c (3) answers b and c and (4) a,b,c and d.

        1. PEBCAK*

          Yes, I remember those, and they make it difficult to use a process of elimination. I’d try not to look at the final options, and look at a, b, c, and d, asking yourself yes/no for each one. THEN look at the final answer and hope there is one that matches the combination you picked :-)

  55. TotesMaGoats*

    It’s been a great couple of weeks at work. Just knocking things out of the park with successes.
    Incoming applications up 26%
    Deposits up 23%
    2 major IT things completed within 6 months (that hadn’t been done in 3 years)

    Getting such great feedback from bosses and colleagues about everything I’m doing. Really enjoy work even with some folks with annoying personalities. Affirms that I do know how to do my job and do it really well. And while I don’t normally toot my own horn on social media and what not, I’ve absolutely been blasting this on my FB feed. My most immediate boss and my first boss at OldJob (who is once again the VP for the division I was in) are on my friend list. Immediate former boss screwed me over while on MAT leave and first boss is struggling to fill my old position. To both I say…neener neeener, your loss.

  56. Can't Breathe*

    Over the last couple weeks one of my coworkers has started using really strongly scented Plugins. Our office is relatively small and the scent is triggering my migraines; they were under control and are back with a vengeance since the Plug In Dynasty began. I have one nearly every afternoon. I asked and coworker refuses to remove the plugins, and my boss won’t intervene. Any ideas?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Wow, that’s jerky – if someone said my lotion scent, for instance, was triggering migraines I’d be apologizing all over myself.

      Would a small fan or air purifier help, is that allowed?

    2. Be the Change*

      Oh my gosh, that is awful. Talk about uncollegial, even nasty and mean-spirited.

      I’d be tempted to start doing something obnoxious back (Smelly food? Loud phone calls?) and then negotiate! …recognizing that an arms race is probably not great solution.

      Maybe a doctor’s note?

    3. Biff*

      Do you mean at the office or at home, and they are bringing the scent in?

      If it’s at the office, is it possible they are covering up a really bad smell and the real solution is to take care of the underlying issue?

    4. Sadsack*

      I had an air freshener that caused my work neighbor headaches, and I immediately got rid of it when he asked. Your coworker is a jerk and so is your manager. I would tell them both about it again, maybe together. “Jane and Bob, as you both know Jane’s air freshener is causing me to have migraines. What are we going to do to resolve this?”

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      My brother is a firefighter and demanded we get rid of all of ours because they are a fire hazard. I suggest going that route. Good luck!

      1. NotherName*

        This! Also, do you have a company policy about strong scents/potential allergens? I would think this would fall under that policy. If you don’t have one and do have an HR department, you might want to discuss this with them.

        But the fire hazard route is probably best. Your headaches might slightly inconvenience them, but they really have problems to deal with if the building burns down. (Unless they’ve recently taken out a large fire insurance policy on the building and this is some sort of elaborate insurance fraud scam your boss and CW are working.)

    6. Xarcady*

      I would go back to the co-worker and very clearly spell out what the problem was. “Co-Irker, the Plugins you are using make me sick. I am getting migraines daily because of them. Can you please stop using them?”

      If she won’t stop, go back to your boss. Address this as a productivity issue. “Boss, I have asked Co-Irker twice now to stop using the Plugins, as they are causing me to have a migraine on a daily basis. These migraines mean that my productivity is down, because I can’t [insert whatever fits here]. Can you ask her to stop using the Plugins, or can my desk be moved, or can you think of some other solution, so that I can do my work?”

      And if Boss still won’t do anything, I’d probably go to HR. But first, I’d try to see if there were any co-workers who also didn’t like the Plugins, so as to present a united front on the issue.

    7. LCL*

      One more meeting with boss. Explain to the boss what a migraine is. Tell him you will be unplugging the plug ins if he doesn’t do anything. Then unplug them. To people that don’t get them, the first (uncharitable) thought when hearing about migraines can be ‘there goes Wakeen exaggerating about his damn headaches again. We all get headaches, what is the BFD?’

      Or you could open the breaker that supplies the receptacle that has the plug in. This is really last resort, because it will kill everything on that circuit. It will make your point.

      1. catsAreCool*

        If a plug-in gave me even a minor headache every day, I’d think it was more than reasonable to ask for it to be removed or turned off.

    8. University Girl*

      I got very concernedthat this might be a situation in my office. I recently brought in a Plug In after our offices were flooded by a water fountain right outside my office. Thankfully I’ve only heard good things about the scent (Mom’s Baking)!

    9. Sunny With a Chance of Showers*

      I am very strongly against anything scented in the communal office space – a Plug-In (yuk), spray, those sticks, or perfume.

      99% of that stuff is all fake chemicals and so very nauseating. Why should I be forced to smell YOUR PlugIn?

    10. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Ugh, that sucks. No advice other than what the others have suggested, but just wanted to say I feel your pain!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Ask the boss what the MSDS says for this product.

      I’d have a headache, too. While you are waiting for the dust to settle, can you bring in a fan or a small air purifier? I have had luck with setting out bowls of vinegar to absorb chemically smells- not ideal in your setting but maybe there is a product you can set near you to reduce the smell next to you.

      Can you open a window? Again, not ideal, but you can’t keep working like this either.

      Can the thing be moved to an outlet further away from you? (I mean that as a temporary thing, while you are impressing the importance of removing it entirely.)

    12. Windchime*

      arrrgggh, Plug-ins are the worst. We’ve got people in our office doing those awful oil misters and that’s almost as bad. I am fragrance-impaird, somehow, so they all smell like patchouli or bug spray to me.

  57. INTP*

    This is something that happened a few years ago, so it doesn’t really matter anymore, but I was thinking about it with discussions about holiday parties and such.

    Is it standard for office parties to include recently retired employees? I was in charge of organizing our office party at a previous job. I was given a list of all the employees as well as a selected list of vendors, clients, and contractors who should get invites, and sent invitations to all of those people.

    “Mary” had retired from the company a few months before after the death of her husband (I got the sense that it was an early retirement, but I started around the time she retired and didn’t know her well). She evidently stayed in touch with current employees and she showed up to the holiday party. I was distributing the meat/fish/veg cards and asked which she had ordered, assuming she was someone’s plus one. She told me “I couldn’t RSVP because I didn’t get my invitation.”

    Was this her faux pas or mine? It wouldn’t be the only time at that job that I was expected to read minds and just know someone should be on a list that wasn’t, but I can’t imagine showing up to a party that I wasn’t invited to, didn’t RSVP to, and not as a guest of someone invited (lots of her friends showed up solo, so I assume she could have come as a plus 1 and ordered her food and RSVPed her place to avoid causing problems).

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Well, it was definitely a huge faux pas for her to just show up when she didn’t get an invitation. You were given a list, and she wasn’t on it, so it wasn’t yours.

      Personally, I think maybe she should have been invited, since she’d been with the company for so many years, and she left on good terms. But then, people might wonder why Mary was invited but Fergus was not, or whether Mary would be invited every year or just that year. The company might need to have guidelines for that.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Our holiday party would certainly include recently retired, visiting executives. And I’m not sure how you would know, unless you knew to ask. I would expect that the recently retired would have tried to connect with the party planners ahead of time, to let them (you) know, and maybe she did, but it didn’t get all the way to you.

    3. Brett*

      It is pretty normal for retirees to show up to our Christmas parties unannounced. We actually frequently get high management retirees from other divisions that have been gone for 10+ years. But we also way overplan on food (like RSVP + 50%). We pay for this all out of our own pockets though ($50-$100 each), so that is probably a big difference compared to a party that it sounds like was paid for by the company?

      1. INTP*

        Yes, the company paid. It was at a restaurant, and we only gave them the number of people who had RSVPed with no padding. Luckily some people didn’t show up after RSVPing, and I guess it worked out since I never heard any complaints about there being no fish for a pescetarian or anything.

    4. LCL*

      Our holiday parties always include retirees. But they are always potluck. The faux pas was committed by the person who was advising you that didn’t tell you about inviting the retirees.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      There are lots of people who messed up here.
      The person who told you to plan the party neglected to mention to you to invite people you do not know and never heard of.
      The person who let Mary know where and when the party was should have told you to include her in the head count.
      Mary should have asked the person who invited her if she needed to RSVP with someone.

      She may have wanted you to feel bad and that could be why she framed her reply the way she did.

      I’d file this one under “mind reading skills”. Sometimes you can take something like this and use it later on. “oh do we invite retirees to these things?” And someone else will think that you have very good ESP. You just never mentioned how you learned to ask that question.

  58. LibbyG*

    How important is writing, really, for professionals? I’m a college professor (not comp or even English) and I emphasize writing a lot: clarity and concision, but also basic correctness. I get a lot of pushback from students, especially those who claim that they just aren’t “good at grammar” and such is their immutable fate. I worry about these students graduating from a really good but not prestigious college going out there and being held back in their careers because their writing has a lot of minor errors (missing commas) or some bigger ones (sentence fragments, run-on sentences). Am I overly worried? Should I dial back my expectations?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m an editor, so I’m biased here, but being able to communicate clearly IS important. Most people don’t notice or fuss over small errors (commas, a slightly wrong word choice) but when poor grammar or spelling, or an inability to sum your thoughts up concisely get in the way of making your point, it can be a problem. You’ll get much farther in life if you can communicate well, let’s put it that way.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No, do not dial back your expectations. In many fields (although not all), writing is hugely important. They don’t have to be Tolstoy or perfect grammarians, but they need to write clearly and concisely and logically, with a flow that at a minimum isn’t distracting from their message.

    3. A*

      I finished undergrad in 2014. I have a hard time taking people seriously and seeing them as intelligent people if they can’t write clearly/use Internet slang/unnecessary abbreviations (“thru,” “omg,” “wat,”). Grammar doesn’t have to be by-the-book. I know I make mistakes and there are instances of evolving language all over the place, so it’s not always necessary to write “correctly.” But writing well is important in a professional context.

      1. SevenSixOne*

        I had a 30something, college educated, native English speaking boss who could not write at all. I don’t mean they were bad at spelling/grammar or never proofread anything, I mean their emails looked like:

        hey every1
        i need u all come 1 hr erly 2mrw
        thx
        boss

        No punctuation or capital letters, a line break after each thought, and full of text speak. It was so confusing, and it can be really hard to respect someone’s authority when they write like a dumbass.

        2. Audiophile*

          Second to this is someone who write and clearly doesn’t understand the words they’re using. You know, because they don’t make sense in the sentence they appear in. I had a supervisor like this, he was nice but didn’t know how to write well and so would try to “punch up” his writing on his own and it just ended up looking ridiculous.

        3. Windchime*

          We actually had a Physicians Assistant (practically the same thing as a doctor) working on a project with my team once, and he wrote like this. He was the laughingstock of the entire team. It was so unprofessional.

      2. Tara R.*

        Honestly, I have a hard time not rolling my eyes when people get judgmental about grammar. In external communications, obviously you want to send out a professional, tehnically precise message. But interally? If my coworker is awesome at her job, I’m not going to begrudge her an “omg”. The vast majority of my personal communications are of the ‘how u doin? lol im having a bad day sighhh’ variety, but that doesn’t mean I’m not an intelligent person. Tbh, I find it somewhat off-putting when I get text messages in an overly formal tone; it feels less like a conversation.

    4. Myrin*

      Agree with all of the above and also, if it really is grammar that is the problem, well, that can be learned (or at least looked up) so it’s really not that good an excuse.

    5. Retail Lifer*

      It’s not important in my field…apparently. At nearly every job I’ve had, we’ve gotten terribly written memos from people that make quite a bit more than me. In fact, at my last company, we had a communications specialist whose sole job was to correct the spelling and grammar of upper management before their memos were sent out.

      It’s really sad when your employees, who are making barely more than minimum wage, point out all the errors of your corporate staff. Not everyone is inarticulate, but there are way more people in upper retail management than you would expect.

    6. SL #2*

      The majority of jobs I’ve applied to asked for writing samples after the phone screening, and use that + the phone call to determine whether or not the applicant makes it to the next round. It matters if you can write clearly, concisely, and personally, I judge when there’s no Oxford comma (which is optional depending on who you talk to), let alone when there are missing ones!

      Are your students in STEM departments, maybe? I’ve found that there’s less of an emphasis on strong writing skills in those classes, especially if the student is taking 3 STEM classes and then 1 class with writing just to fill a requirement.

    8. Ad Astra*

      Being good at communicating clearly will always, always help you do your job — any job — better. Even jobs that don’t seem writing-focused will probably involve a lot of email, memos, etc. I would think the increase in digital tools (IM, texting, digital forms, company Intranets, etc) would likely make basic writing skills even more important.

      I expect professionals to have mastered things like your/you’re and there/their/they’re, understand when one sentence ends and another begins, and get most (but maybe not all) of their commas in the right place. It would also be nice if said professionals knew how to pluralize a word without adding an apostrophe.

    9. bridget*

      What?! No, you’re not overly worried. Along with many other comments, I’m biased because my profession demands good writing. Flawless writing is basically what lawyers are paid for (although my internet comments might not often reflect that people actually pay me for that). As there are so many of us who are “biased” based on our professions, it strongly suggests that writing is basic competency issue in so many professions that students who try to ignore that are seriously limiting themselves.

    10. fposte*

      I would look at it another way: it’s a huge, huge advantage to write well. It gives you a leg up. It makes you sound like you know more than other people whether you do or not. It earns respect, even when people don’t realize that’s what’s earning their respect. This advantage is available to you for *free*. (Setting aside mounds of cultural baggage about privilege and opportunity, of course). People who are looking for a magic bullet in hiring and are sending along chocolate and pictures of themselves–focus that time on writing well, because that may be the closest thing to a magic bullet around.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes! I got lots of unearned respect early on just because I could write well; in my first couple of jobs, people thought I was much more skilled and competent than I actually was, solely due to the writing. (That may still be the case.)

        I actually owe my whole career to being able to write.

      2. dancer*

        Yes! I find this is true even in technical fields. My manager has been happy with how clear, concise and organized my reports are.

        2. catsAreCool*

          I work in a technical field, and being able to write well has been helpful to me. I think that people who goof up in well-known grammar sometimes have a harder time getting taken seriously.

    11. Bend & Snap*

      Incredibly important in my field (communications). But really, it’s a skill that can only help people in the course of their lives, so I don’t get the pushback.

      I do see some terribly written emails from other parts of my company so it may just depend on whether you work with good writers/a field that values writing. But good writing is definitely a sign of intelligence IMO.

    12. Anonymous Poster*

      Engineer here. The engineers that write coherently get along much better and go farther than those that do not or cannot. It hampers an engineer’s ability to collaborate with his or her fellows effectively, and no engineering happens in a vacuum anymore. Specifically in my field, good grammar, correct word usage, and technical clarity are vital. Why?

      Grammar – If I don’t understand what exactly you’re talking about, I cannot correctly diagnose/problem solve.
      Word usage – Engineering requires precision and technical correctness. Wrong words dramatically change the meaning of what’s being communicated.
      Technical clarity – I need to know exactly what’s being talked about, so be clear. Fewer words often help improve clarity, so be concise.

      1. MashaKasha*

        IT here and I think it’s extremely important for two reasons:
        1) communication – everything you’ve listed. Tom from Office Space was not that far from the truth actually.
        2) marketing – there are a lot of people in my field who choose to work for themselves. I haven’t done it, but I imagine that, in addition to having the skills and the experience to deliver what the customer wants, they also have to be able to market themselves.

      2. dancer*

        Yup, I completely agree. I hate reading poorly written technical reports because they can mask issues or make the described problem completely ambiguous.

      3. F.*

        We hire engineering and geology/earth sciences grads. Our written inspection report *is* our product. All the work in the field goes into that document. A candidate with good grammar and spelling skills will stand out head and shoulders above the rest. Please continue to impress upon your students how very important these skills are, no matter which field they choose.

        A mini-rant here: I think it is a damn shame that grammar and spelling are not taught better in elementary school. This changed back in the 1960s when someone in education decided that it was better to just let students “express themselves” and that teaching grammar and spelling “held them back” from doing so. What earthly good is it to express yourself if no one can understand what you are trying to communicate?!
        (end of rant!)

        1. bridget*

          I think this is a generational straw man. I went to elementary school in the 1990s, and good writing was pretty heavily emphasized. Whenever we wrote personal stories, or journaled, or whatever, it was really just a way to get us to practice writing a lot, because practice (in whatever form and with whatever content) is what makes you a better writer. It wasn’t just so that we could be little free spirits.

          I’m willing to bet that in the 1960s, a *smaller* proportion of the public had strong writing skills. In objective terms, things like literacy and public education tend to get better over time, not worse. We had a lot more agricultural and industrial jobs back then, so it was much less important for any random person to write well. I’d be surprised if my lifelong-rancher grandfather could write a cohesive paragraph (I’m sure that’s not representative; I don’t mean to crap on such jobs, they just didn’t require much writing in previous decades). Now office/thinking/communicating jobs are the majority of jobs, and even people employed in non-office environments need to present competently in an email.

          1. Kelly L.*

            Yup. I went to elementary school in the 80s and high school in the 90s. We definitely learned grammar, diagrammed sentences, and wrote faux business letters and innumerable five-paragraph themes.

            1. mander*

              Me, too. Same time frame. We even made mobiles of our diagrammed sentences in high school, just for fun!

          2. F.*

            I was in the second grade in 1967 when the new English curriculum came out in our medium-sized city school district in a city with heavy ties to the aircraft industry. When I took Latin in 9th grade with a lot of other advanced students, the teacher was appalled that I was the only person in the class who knew English grammar. That was only because my mother taught me, and I was a voracious reader. She had to teach the rest of the class what they should have already known.

            My children graduated from High School in 2006 and 2009, so they were in grade school in a middle-income suburban district in the 1990s. I was dismayed at the lack of instruction in grammar and especially the lack of carryover of communication skills into other subjects. (Your experience was obviously different.)

            1. Kelly L.*

              Well, schools vary, of course.

              And I think people are always surprised, when learning a foreign language, how much grammar they take for granted in their own, even if they’ve learned grammar adequately. One of my college Spanish classes assigned a book called something like English Grammar for Spanish Students, and it was all about how you’re learning Spanish and thinking “Subjunctive? What is this witchcraft?” but it actually exists in English too; we just don’t think about it. Really interesting stuff.

      4. Marcela*

        Scientist here, and I absolutely agree with you. In our area, physics, we discovered it’s easier to get papers published when they are well written. The same happens with conference talks and abstracts. Considering the vital importance the number of papers has in a scientist career, sometimes my husband wonders how people send horrific papers to journals (that he gets to review). It’s not like it’s impossible to learn to write properly, or at least try to, like we do. There are even websites to check grammar, such as spellcheckplus.com

    13. Christian Troy*

      My undergrad was very particular about writing, to the point people were regularly brought in for misconduct if something wasn’t cited correctly. During grad school, it was the complete opposite in that faculty members were never on the same page when it came to what standards to hold students to or if it was appropriate to critique their writing. This was a huge problem because as a student who was assigned to work on different group projects, I often worked with students who were at such deficits when it came to basic skills like citing sources, that I turned into a jerk by telling them what they were doing was a poor practice. I don’t think you should dial back your expectations because I think when professors take such a hands off approach or lower the bar, it sends a message that these habits are acceptable when they are sloppy and lazy.

    14. olympiasepiriot*

      I am an un-civil engineer. Clear writing using good grammar and spelling is vital. We transmit information mostly in visual and mathematical form, but, everything gets a cover letter, a report, a transmittal form, a memo or some other written document containing information, distillation and recommendations.

      I even demand of my junior engineers that they *physically* write neatly — we have many field forms and, no, we don’t issue everyone iPads for documenting field conditions. If a sheet of paper with pencil or ball point ink gets wet or muddy or sprayed with grout, it can be gently placed somewhere to dry, brushed off and STILL be legible. Try doing that with anything less than a military spec tablet.

      I have bent the ear of more than one Civ Eng. Dept. head about reinstituting at least one semester of a hand drawing and lettering class at the undergraduate level.

      1. CheeryO*

        I was a TA for a few junior and senior level civil/enviro engineering classes, and I was constantly fighting my bias towards the students with neat handwriting. I also really appreciated students who wrote their calculations out in a thorough, logical way. It made me feel a little softer towards my high school physics teacher, who was notoriously ruthless about formatting.

        But yes, even for us engineers, writing is so critical. I’m in government, and sometimes I feel like all I do is write things that other people (lawyers, the public, our regulated community) are going to be reading with a critical eye. Being able to pump out quality documentation that your overworked boss doesn’t need to edit is HUGE.

    15. OriginalEmma*

      Nope! And you may be the only professor/class that helps them write the sort of documents organizations want and need. Clear, precise and brief! Not some 5-page bloviating exposition on the nature of socks.

    16. Anie*

      My boss’s boss’s boss put up signs advising the company about the exact date of a huge event that takes place every 2 months. The signs where mostly for vendors of those who might not otherwise get an email about it.

      It was so poorly written. I mean, misspelled words, no punctuation…. It was basically incomprehensible.

      Sooooo, I took a red marker and edited it. Super boss saw the corrections, pulled down the signs, told everyone he ran into for WEEKS that he’d taken the note from a template (that I’ve never seen in the 5 years I’ve worked there, lol), and put up a “corrected” sign. That. Still. Had. No. Punctuation.

      It hurts me to see things like this, so it’s so prevalent. It’s tragic that such a well paid, exec-level man doesn’t understand how to use a period or comma.

      Brings me back to my college days working on student papers. I had so many people try to hand me work without a single period that I had to hand them back automatically and firmly say I wouldn’t look at any paper that didn’t use periods and capitalize the first word of the next sentence.

    17. Mike C.*

      Smack them around with high expectations, especially if they happen to be STEM majors. They need it <so badly

      Pretty please. :)

    18. Elizabeth West*

      No, it’s extremely important. You don’t have to be J.K. Rowling to learn simple grammar. In fact, having good communication skills, including and especially writing, can give them an edge over similarly qualified candidates who lack them. And you can tell them I said that. I’ve gotten jobs because of those abilities, including this one. I wasn’t born knowing how to write; I learned and so can they.

      Don’t dial back your expectations–you wouldn’t be doing them any favors.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, I am going to seem to go against the grain a little bit. While I agree that expressing a thought clearly is absolutely critical, I also know that the profs drove me and others nuts with stuff.

      Never ever use a comma in this instance.
      Always use a comma in this instance.
      HUH?

      Start a new paragraph here.
      Don’t start a new paragraph here.
      wth.

      Try not to pick fly poop out of pepper. Remember that other profs are telling the students the opposite of what you are saying. They are swearing that what they say is gospel. Students write to suit the professor. They put commas in for one prof and leave them out for another. They know how each prof differs and they just do what is necessary for that particular prof.

      Getting my final paper through proof reading was very interesting. I don’t know how many times I redid it. I kept track of the changes. I was taking commas out for one person, and putting commas back in for the next person. I was unjoining sentences for one person and putting them back together the next reader. I went through months of this. I finally felt that no one had actually followed the content of what I had written, no one really made any comment on the thoughts that I had put together or where I went with what I had learned in the course of my research. Basically, I found their comments superficial. They were more concerned with making it look pretty than they were with thinking about the content. The final reviewer’s only comment was that this was the most highly edited paper he had ever read. What a waste of my time. It was 90 pages and it was some of my worst writing ever. In some ways, it made me question if my degree was real.

      When you give back a student’s work, they will be looking to see if you are actually following along with what they are talking about. Do your comments show, in some manner, that you have actually read and digested what they wrote? I had a prof for economics that would write half page comments at the end of our papers. I could not wait to see what he had to say on each paper I handed in. (We did one a week.) Yes, he had added commas and shortened sentences and all that. But he took the time to follow our trains of thought and his comments reflected that. He taught on two levels, he was not as concerned with “making it look pretty” to the exclusion of considering what point is the writer making and how does the writer get to their point.

    20. LibbyG*

      Thanks, everyone! This thread really helps me strategize about what to focus on. Thanks especially to Not So NewReader for the contrasting perspective.

      1. Sophia in the DMV*

        Late reply but I’m also a professor (assistant professor) and I think you can’t disentangle ideas from writing. I see writing as a way of thinking and remind them that I don’t know what’s in their head, and need them to clearly communicate

  59. ThatGirl*

    I’m new to the open thread, so, hi!

    I’m an editor. I currently work for a large Fortune 500 wholesaler, so I edit product copy about teapots, tea cozies, hot plates, tea cups, saucers spoons, sugar, creamer, you name it. I’ve been here 8 years and used to be in journalism.

    I like my job but recently I’ve been approached by two different recruiters for jobs that would use my editing and content/project management skills in totally different ways. I’m basically waiting to see where this goes.

    My questions are really thus:
    a) how on earth do I answer “where do you see your career going?” when I never saw it going this direction, but I’m happy that it did and happy to go where life takes me next?
    b) how much better does a new job have to be before I know it’s worth taking? I guess that’s something only I can answer, but it’s not a thought I’ve had to consider before, and there are a lot of little things I would miss about my current job in a new one. Which isn’t to say a new one wouldn’t have its own perks.

    Hmph.

    1. Dawn*

      a) think about that job and only that job when answering that question. So, if you got the job at that specific company, where would you want it to go? What division(s) seem interesting? What new stuff are they doing that sounds like something you’d want to jump on board with?

      b) I mean there’s always hesitation in taking a new job, ALWAYS. You can never be 100% sure of what you’re getting into. However, at some point in the talking/interviewing/negotiation phase you’ll either find yourself going “yeah, I’m excited about this!” or “Eh, whatever.” Don’t take the job unless you’re feeling “Yeah! Excited!!!”

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thanks – B especially is helpful.

        With A, part of the problem is that I have no idea – these aren’t industries I’m familiar with, the jobs themselves are (in this case) niche positions, I’m not sure if there’s a clear stepping stone or ladder to follow. And they seem to be asking me, at least when it comes to recruiters, more broadly what I want my career to be.

        1. Dawn*

          Research research research before you go into an interview! Get familiar with these industries! Spend a couple hours reading about the company and specifically pay attention to any news articles written about the company in the last six months. That should give you a good picture of what the company does and anything that they’ve done on a large enough scale to land on the news recently.

          OK so here’s an example. Let’s say you’re gonna go interview for a job at Procter & Gamble (another Fortune 500 but not a wholesaler). Alrighty, so 5 seconds on Google News shows me that they have just launched an Oral B toothbrush that connects to your smartphone and that the company is thinking about other ways to offer connected products. Let’s say that piques your interest. So when you get the “where do you see your career in 5 years” you can say something like “I have been reading about the Internet of Everything and am specifically interested in how everyday items can become ‘smart’ and connected to an app. I see that P&G is venturing into that space with your smart toothbrush! I’d like to [start doing stuff related to that topic][write stuff related to that topic][project manage stuff related to that topic]”

          When they ask that question they’re not saying “Alrighty I want a detailed 12 step plan for how you’re gonna spend your time between now and 5 years from now and exactly what you’re gonna do to get there” they’re just trying to weed out the people who are wishy-washy or who don’t show any aptitude or who are dumb enough to say something like “Working for [a totally different company/industry]!”

          1. ThatGirl*

            Appreciate your thoughts, for sure – and I wouldn’t say “herding goats in Timbuktu” or anything :) This one possibility in particular is very niche and newly created and there don’t seem to be too many people doing it, so it’s hard to investigate. But it’s good food for thought.

    2. Jules the First*

      On the first point: I answer that question by saying that I’m not much of a planner, which is a good thing because I didn’t know this job existed, so I’d never have gone looking for it. I then go on to explain what I want ouy of my career – to be challenged, engaged, and given a variety of changing reaponsibilities. It’s served me well as an answer so far.

      On the secod point: I make those decisions by asking myself what my resume would look like in a year if I took this job vs staying put. Another good one is what would I say at a party three months after starting the bew job when someone asked what I do?

      1. ThatGirl*

        Love your first answer, thank you, that fits me fairly well – I stumbled into the career I have now, and if it served me well I’d happily stumble into a different line.

        Second answer is somewhat helpful – but I also value work-life balance and stability, and there is room to advance in this company if I stay, it’s pretty big. But I probably won’t be getting any more big raises unless I got a big promotion, for instance, whereas I would only take a new job if it came with a substantial raise – but I am paid decently now and am able to work from home part time so money is not the sole factor. You can see how I keep going around in circles.

        1. Jules the First*

          I see. In that case, I recommend going to the interview, talking to a few trusted colleagues (ideally these would be people who know OldCompany and NewCompany), and then, if that all gets you far enough for a job offer, it’s Pros & Cons time: 60 seconds, write down all the reasons to stay in OldJob; then same thing for NewJob; then all the reasons not to stay in OldJob; and then all the reasons not to take NewJob. The only rule is that none of your reasons for one job should have anything to so with the other job.

          I thought this was cheesy and pointless when my coach recommended it, but actually when I sat down and did it, it uncovered a whole bunch of things I hadn’t thought about which were together enough to let me make the decision. (Reader, I quit…)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      In answer to part b, I would take a look at my short term life goals. For example, years ago when I applied at one job I wanted to get a new-to-me car and a house. Then I started thinking about how the targeted job meshed with those goals. Well, if I want a house, I need a stable job with consistent levels of work because I need a reliable income. The job did not require me to move around, I would not be transferred three states over. And the hours were consistent- this meant I could have a dog because my schedule was predictable.
      Okay I had more thoughts that after this but I won’t bore you. The point is this is how I launched my train of thought. I started with my personal life goals and what is important to me. As my thoughts went on, I considered what I valued in a job and what types of things help me to stay with an employer. Every job has it rough times, is there enough going right in this particular setting that I would probably chose to ride out the rough times?

  60. Be the Change*

    I have two things that are a little hard right now. I’m not sure I want or need advice, just need to write it out. (Also, these are totally first world problems, I so get that.)

    One person I supervise is just flat incompetent. Tons of mistakes, personal flightiness, etc. And in our environment, it’s honestly next to impossible to get rid of the person or even change their duties, trust me on this. So. Irritating. I know a couple of things I need to do, I’m just dreading the drama. And possible tears.

    Another person I supervise is extremely competent and good but I just don’t much like them (and vice versa), and I have made mistakes managing in the past. I did seek help and have changed the way I do things since then, but the memories certainly remain. We’re both perfectly professional and even cordial toward each other. It’s just uncomfortable and I hate feeling cold and detached from someone in my relatively small team. In part because it means that I “should” be more detached from others as well, because favoritism. …actually this one I don’t have good strategies for, so suggestions would be welcome.

    Hope everyone’s having a great Friday!

    1. fposte*

      On the first, do the things and soldier through the tears. And when you say it’s next to impossible, that means it could actually be possible, so start identifying the ducks you’d have to line up and then start grabbing those ducks.

      On the second, you could also just give yourself a break and say you don’t have to like everybody. I’m generally really fond of my co-workers, so it is a little weird to me when there’s someone I haven’t clicked with, but I make a point of noting to myself when they’ve done something well, or enjoyably, and try not to simmer on the question.

      1. Jules the First*

        On both points, my career coach is fond of reminding me that everyone is a rock star at something and as managers our job is to steer these people towards jobs that let them be the rockstar. I also find this helps me work with people I don’t like, because it encourages me to respect them for their talents, which makes it easier to relate to them.

    2. Artemesia*

      If it is very difficult to fire someone, then manage firmly and provide feedback and hold the person accountable — not meanly, but firmly so that if they can’t improve their productivity they might move on. And if they continue to be terrible, you are documenting this so firing might be possible if you have better management at some point. Keep the pressure on, ignore the tears except ‘I know this is difficult for you, but we need to focus here on what you need to do to improve this.’

      1. F.*

        And make the conversation about the job performance, not the person themselves. Don’t let them derail the conversation into accusations based on emotions: “You don’t like me!”, “You’re saying I’m a bad person”, etc. Keep it focused on facts and what the employee needs to do to turn things around.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Some of the tension between you and the second person might be reduced if you are able to get rid of the first person. Just a thought.

      However. regarding person number 2, all you need is to think something of them professionally. That is the number one thing you need, look at how it’s going with number one if you have any question on this. Hopeless, right? No professionalism going on there. So there is some hope with number two.
      If you are still not feeling it here, try thinking of it this way- there are different kinds of closeness/knitting together. In the case of Number Two, maybe the best to be obtained there is respect for her work ethic. Well, that is pretty huge, right there. I have worked with people that I would never sit and eat Sunday dinner with, but if something is going wrong at work then I almost start running to find this person. And that is because I think something of their work ethic and their abilities.

      In regard to person number one, decide that you can and will work through the tears should tears come out. I see over and over that people are afraid of others crying. I am not sure why in all cases. If you think they are crying to manipulate you, decide that you will not be manipulated and you will stay on track. If you think they are crying because they do not understand you, then decide to talk that through. If you think they are crying because that is how they handle inputs then have a talk about how to handle criticism in the work place in a professional manner.

      This may involve using some at home time to envision various responses and planning out what your response will be. Write out your “pretend” responses if you need to. Extra points for taking the responses you dread the most and writing out what you will say if you hear that dreaded response.
      Someone here had mentioned this earlier, and I think it’s a good idea. Have the chat later in the afternoon. That way the person does not have to sit in tears all day and they can go home to think through what you said.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I feel your pain. And yes I trust you. What I did in the situation with employee number 1.
        Send an email scheduling a one on one.
        No surprises- describe content of the meeting=
        We will be reviewing your job description and expectations.
        Have a sit down with their job description.
        Break it down to actual expectations/ tasks/ due dates
        If employee tries to derail the conversation- that’s not how we always did it, that’s not how I work…
        Reiterate. Have them initial each task/ expectation. For example accurate weekly statistical reports are due by Monday noon.
        And hold to that.

        Tears and drama- Employee cries etc. Stop the meeting, excuse the employee. You seem upset. We will meet later in the day….tomorrow first thing… to finish this meeting.

        It is not true that every employee will “see the light” “shape up” What helped me on an almost two year period supervising a PIP was that HR and my supervisor reminding me that this IS a great job and there is someone out there who will want to do it and do it well.

  61. Airman/Officer --> Civilian*

    In some random clicking this week, I clicked on an article about excessive prosecution by Air Force and the defendant in the case being referenced is one of my former Airmen. It was a shock to see a familiar name.

    Basically it sounds like the guy who was a manager in the office may have sexually harassed some junior Airman. I am not entirely shocked by those facts. When I knew him 10 years ago,the guy was kind of an immature bro – drink, party, chase girls – although he was very skilled in his art. And frankly, the culture we were in at the time probably encouraged it. The organization was tough, best of the best, and we knew it and told each other it.

    So in 10 years, it doesn’t sound like he grew up very much. OTOH he was originally threatened with 150 years in jail for his crimes! Woah! That’s excessive, maybe he should be demoted, discharged, not allowed to retire, etc, but years of jail time for what is described in the article as low level sexual harassment!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Some times articles do not convey the severity of the situation and the penalty does not sound like it matches the crime. Or there could be excessive charges, I know that in the civilian sector there is a theory of throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. Or it could be that the aim is demotion/discharge/loss of retirement and in order to get to that, they had to put the charges higher to allow negotiating room.

      And finally some reporters fail to grasp the situation entirely and only write the parts of the story they understand. Don’t ask how I know this.

  62. Retail Lifer*

    For a minute, I thought about getting a real estate license so I could go into apartment property management. This is the one field outside of retail where I meet all off the requirements…except for the license part. Classes are only offered in person in my state, though, and you need to work banker’s hours, not retail manager hours, in order to attend any classes. Of course, if I could FIND a decent paying job with banker’s hours I wouldn’t be trying to take classes.

  63. MadameLibrarian*

    Oooh, the comment up above about last-minute cancellations has me nervous. I have an interview on Monday for a job that the only way I’d take it is for significantly more than is posted (like, four or five dollars more an hour). It doesn’t say anywhere that the pay isn’t negotiable, but given that it was in the posting… I was thinking I should go through with it just in case/for practice at least, but now I’m not sure. Any advice?

    1. GigglyPuff*

      If it’s a library job, I’d say go. It really depends on a lot of factors, I think, and if you try to negotiate that’s different than knowing you absolutely have a figure in mind they could not meet. But library jobs are sometimes hard to come by, and sometimes they won’t negotiate but sometimes they will.

      Like for my govt. job I was told throughout the entire process they were very firm on the salary and it was towards the low end of the range posted, and I would have taken it probably. But my manager actually got it raised on her own because she knew the job was worth that salary. So you never know.

    2. ModernHypatia*

      Depends what kind of library, I’d think: are they the kind of institution that might have that kind of flexibility? (A large university system might prefer to hire at X, but might be willing to hire at X+3 or X+4). A small public library with a tiny budget may just not have the room to maneuver. And X+5 is a pretty big jump for hourly wage.

      Are there factors that might change the number for you? (Hours, schedule, work environment, benefits, vacation time, commute, etc?)

      I tend to think that if you’re sure you’re not going to take the job unless it’s substantially more money than they listed is a good reason to either cancel the interview, or call and say “Is there any flexibility on the salary”, but that if the other pieces might change the equation for you, going through with the interview is worthwhile.

      1. MadameLibrarian*

        It’s a community college, and I’d have to move to take the job (I don’t drive and public transit won’t work). I’ve already taken the day off work and got a friend to drive me part of the way, so I’m inclined to just go through with it. (I also have no other promising job leads, so canceling my only interview feels icky.) There’s also the fact that it’s at 11am on Monday and it’s 2:30pm on Friday now. :( I hate not knowing what to do.

  64. Lizzy May*

    I started a new job a little less than a month ago and I’m at that awful point where I feel guilty getting help. I’ve gone through this in new roles before and know that its still better to ask when I do get stuck, but my coworkers are all very busy and the training for my role is basically non-existent. I make an effort to try to find answers on my own but when I do need to ask for assistance, I feel like its wrong and after this point I should know more.

    I still ask, but its a workplace confidence killer. Still, I remember feeling this way last time I took on a role very different from previous ones and I know it will pass but its made for a bad week at work.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Hang on to the fact that feelings are not necessarily reality. Feelings are just feelings. You don’t indicate that anyone is upset with you. How are they responding to you, what is their overall tone/demeanor? It sounds like you are getting the answers you need so that is good sign.

      You can write stuff down and vow not to ask the same question twice. You can make sure you are not just asking the same person- so it does not feel like you are wearing them out. Annd you can ask how long it takes new people to catch on.

      And I have always thought that the first day is the WORST. I mean, I don’t even know where the bathroom is- that is the bottom of the barrel. Every day after that is a tiny bit easier. Try to think of ways you were a tiny bit more comfy in your job this week.

  65. Blue Anne*

    Last night my husband and I finally faced the elephant in the room and redefined our relationship; we’re platonic life partners. For the moment. I’m going to move to the guest room and we’re going to see how this works for the next year or so.

    This morning I was, well, not in a great place to be doing good work. I mean it’s a good thing really and I’m not super upset, but obviously my brain is other places.

    I really wanted to sit by myself today. But I’m in my notice period, and today is the work christmas dinner, as well as the big department meeting where it was announced I was leaving. So I didn’t feel like I could do that, and I haven’t told anyone at my current workplace.

    Is there a better way to handle this? What do people think about taking time off work for this kind of thing? I feel like if I’d said to my manager “Sorry I’m slow today, my husband told me last night he wants a divorce” she would’ve said “WTF are you doing here”, but maybe that’s wishful thinking.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I personally prefer the distraction of work when going through those types of things. I don’t think I would sweat taking a day or half day, if needed, during the notice period, but I don’t think you should take much more than that unless you lay it out there for your manager and she’s okay with it.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      I generally don’t go into specifics for this type of thing. If I need to take off time, it’s a “personal issue” or “personal emergency.” If I want to explain unusual behavior at work, it’s “sorry if I’ve been unusually quiet today, I have a bit of a headache.”

    3. Bend & Snap*

      Since you’re leaving, I don’t think I would disclose it. I’m mid divorce and my higher ups know, but I’m not planning on leaving my company.

      Maybe just say you got some bad news and you’re going to skip the party or whatever you need to do.

      I’m sorry that happened.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I’m with Bend & Snap. I don’t see any need to share it if you’re already leaving. Plus I’m a big fan of the headache excuse–if I can blame allergies for that, then nobody thinks anything of slightly watery eyes and a pinkish sniffy nose.

      And I’m really sorry. *hug* That stinks.

  66. LiteralGirl*

    Just found out that my regional company has made an agreement to be acquired by a national one. It’s subject to regulatory approval, but I imagine it will go through. It isn’t expected to be final for almost a year, but I’m not sure my job is one that would survive after completion. I do like the company that is acquiring us (similar mission, way of doing business, etc.), so I would be happy to stay on if possible.

    My question is this – do I ride this out and see where things land? Start looking now for other positions? Wait six months?

    1. ThatGirl*

      If you are happy to stay on, and suspect your skills would still be useful in the new company, I would probably stick it out. You can always keep an eye on other positions in the meantime.

    3. Windchime*

      My company was recently acquired, so I have similar questions. I’ve decided to just wait and see how things go for the time being.

  67. PEBCAK*

    There is an opening in another department that the manager has as much as told me who will be getting it. A friend in another division applied, and HR told her they were interested, and asked her to do some work to prepare for the interview. It’s not excessive, but probably 6-8 hours of preparation to make a presentation. Should I tell my friend not to bother?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      No. If you want to repeat what your manager said and let her draw her own conclusions then do that. But your manager could have been mistaken. Or if your friend applies the HM might change her mind after seeing the work your friend does. Give your friend the info and let her decide her next move. She may say, “thanks” and add that she found a job she liked much better and she will just focus on that next job.

  68. Ruth (UK)*

    I have a type of personality and way I come across where it’s quite common for people to tell me I am ‘crazy’ or ‘weird’ (enthusiastic, fast talking, interested in things people consider boring or geeky, excitable.. Not sure what else but I do get the comment a lot).

    I think I have internalised it a little. The other day when talking to my boss I kind of random fact spewed on a tangent to the topic we were discussing (‘oh did you know…’) and then realised I was doing that and apologised with ‘sorry, I know I’m a bit crazy’ and she responded, ‘Ruth, you’re not crazy’ very seriously and sincere sounding. It’s sort of hard to explain but… It feels sort of.. Well, it was nice to hear.

    (Ps. As someone with a few mental health issues and knowing others with some, I also do not really like ‘crazy’ being used in the way i used it and how others have used it to me. But sometimes language gets used a certain way a lot and if you hear it used in that way a lot, it’s easy to slip out with it. It’s the exact term people typically use on me and as I say, i have sort of internalised that, hence why i probably ended up using that word to ‘explain’ and apologise for myself)

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That is really lovely, and I totally get it. I’ve been in similar situations. When someone said to me, “That is so cool that you do X! I want to hear more about it!”, I was floored. Your boss sounds like she appreciates you as a whole person, and that is wonderful.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        If you mean the North East of the UK, sadly not. I’m in the not-quite-in-the-south. If you mean the NE of a different country then… I’m not :D

          1. Ruth (UK)*

            Excellent new username there. We’re almost name twins! Did you know, if you take all the letters in “Ruth” and re-arrange them (and take some away and add some), it spells “TheLazyB”!

    3. OriginalEmma*

      I do that. I spew tangential knowledge that appears connected to the topic at-hand only to me but whose relevance I cannot clearly explain to others. I feel like folks think I’m weird for it, too. You’re in good company, friend.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      OMG that’s totally me. #solidarity! I have been called weird many times–I decided it’s a compliment, because it generally means I’m being myself. So I say, “Thank you!”

      Your boss sounds really nice.

  70. Christina*

    Any advice on how to deal with a manager who’s completely imploding? I work on a communications team and in the past month, my manager has done the following:
    – assigned A (a writer) a task that’s outside his skill scope (graphic design) and, when A said he’d ask teammate B for help since B had done something similar, was told not to talk to B about it and instead should “Google it, figure something out, and don’t bother B, she’s too busy” B is not busy at all.
    – our graphic designer quit 2 months ago. Manager spent a month sitting on the empty job, then decided what we really need is a developer with some graphic design experience.
    – said she must approve the first draft of any communication we are working on before it goes to anyone else on various project team, and in order for her to approve it, we must set up a meeting and a bring a printed copy. We cannot use email. And she complains how busy her day is with meetings. She regularly just sits on projects and requests until project managers ask her what’s going on.
    – mocked the success of one project I worked on to our team, then bragged about the exact same success to her colleagues
    – completely ignored the major success of another project a teammate has worked on
    – wrote a 6 page document on how to write an email. Didn’t follow at least half of the guidelines she listed in an email she sent out earlier in the same day.
    – considered it no big deal when she told us that our VP had hired a freelance writer. Of the 3 people currently on her team, 2 have Masters degrees involving writing.

    Manager just got a new boss, and one of my teammates and I plan to talk about all of these things with him when we have our “get to know you” meetings, but other than straight-out firing her (which won’t happen), I don’t know that he will be able to fix anything. Yes, I’ve been looking for a new job, but it’s slow going…

  71. pieces of flair*

    Today’s vent: There’s a job I want to apply to, but they require a writing sample and I don’t have anything appropriate. (I do some writing in my current job, but it’s all collaborative and I don’t have anything that’s just *my* work.) So I have to actually write something and I have no freaking clue where to start. It just sucks that I know this is going to take me hours and there’s maybe a 1-5% chance of even getting a response to my application.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Something related to work that they do?

      Can you ask for clarification on the type of sample? Proposal, technical report, sales ad, press release, essay…
      They will probably compare candidates’ samples, so there should be some frame of reference.

  72. LizB*

    I have a tech question!

    I use Google Calendar for my personal calendar, and my new workplace uses Outlook for work calendars. I’d like to have my work calendar sync with my personal one so that any work meetings appear on my personal calendar; I don’t want my personal events appearing on my work calendar. After doing some research, it looks like I’ll need a third-party application to sync these two calendars, but I don’t know which of the many options out there to pick. Does anyone have any recommendations or advice about which application to use? Pros and cons of different pieces of software? Other ways of syncing my calendars? Thanks in advance!

    1. maria*

      You should be able to add a feed of your work calendar as an “other calendar” in Google Calendar. Then you can click it on or off on your various devices depending on preference.

    2. YaH*

      Hmm. My android smartphone has a Google Calendar widget that allows me to sync my Outlook work calendar with my personal Google calendar, and my personal events don’t show up on my Outlook calendar.

    3. nerdgal*

      I have the same situation. I set up Outlook on my smartphone and now my phone calendar shows both. I have a Samsung Galaxy S6. Not a complete answer, since the Outlook calendar isn’t synced with Google when I use my laptop. But I always have the phone with me so I get alerts for both calendars.

    4. Observer*

      Do you actually need your calendars to sync, or do you just want them to appear on your phone?

      For the latter, if you have an Android phone, all you need to do is to add the calendar to the calendar on the phone. If you want to actually have your work appointments on your personal calendar, you could skip the software and just send a meeting invite to yourself whenever you set up an appointment for work.

  73. Lois Lane*

    I started a new job a few months ago. Our department now has the chance for one of us to attend an awesome international trip next year. I’ve never been out of the country due to the cost and am DYING TO go, but I naturally assumed my two senior colleagues would get first dibs. Our boss, however, is insistent on drawing names from a hat. Since this trip is being funded by another department, there is the expectation that we will deliver an awesome PR project for them to use. My two other colleagues lack the multimedia skills to fully create what my boss has already mentioned she’d like to deliver. I have those skills, and I wonder if that’s the reason my boss is insistent on the hat system. If my name is drawn from the hat, should I defer the trip to my senior colleagues, or just ignore what I am sure will be glares and resentment and cheer my good fortune?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I think if they’re drawing names from a hat, it’s expected that the senior colleagues may not be able to take the trip. I would ignore any resentment.

  74. HR Noob*

    Just got the official word that our office will be moving to a new location a few blocks away in three months. Anyone have experience with this? What kinds of things can I start doing now to make the move go more smoothly, both for me and for my office in general? What do you wish you’d done differently? What slipped through the cracks?

    1. Dawn*

      You personally: clean out your drawers NOW, like set aside a coupla hours to go through everything and get rid of all of the stuff you don’t need anymore

      Your office: get extra trash/recycling cans and set them up so people aren’t clogging up the trash cans. See if you can set up a set-aside hour or two for people to pack/clean up so they don’t have to stay late to do it. HIRE A MOVING COMPANY! Do NOT make your workers move their own stuff! Good office moving companies will provide boxes and/or plastic bins for packing stuff. Get up with IT about how to move all the computer stuff so it’ll survive transit. TELL EVERYONE AS EARLY AS YOU CAN because some people don’t deal with change well at all and will need a month of huffing into a paper bag to deal with the fact they’ll be at a different desk. Make sure you’re giving managers lots of heads up about the new space and letting them know you’re here to help as they come up with new seating plans (dunno how big your office is but figuring out seating plans when departments got moved always took at least a month at Old Job.)

    2. alter_ego*

      are you going to be in charge of the move at all, or you’re just an employee that’s going to be part of it? We moved offices a little over a year ago now, and everything was pretty much organized by a company that moves offices professionally and our office manager. Each cubicle in our current office was given a number. We were each given numbered plastic bags for our phone/computer/monitor that matched our cubicle number, and two big plastic totes with our cube number on them for eeeeeverything else.

      About a month before the move, we hired a trash company to drop off some huge bins, and we made sure we didn’t have any projects going out that day so the whole office could spend the whole day throwing out anything they didn’t want to keep, from their own cubes and from the general filing cabinets and shelving and stuff that everyone shared. So the Friday before the move, we again made sure we didn’t have any projects going out, and we packed up our totes and plastic bags. The cubes in the new location were labeled with the corresponding cube numbers from the old office. On Saturday, the moving company picked everything up, and dropped everyone’s stuff at the correctly numbered cubicle. We spend Monday morning unpacking.

      It was a really smooth transition, and there honestly much any of us had to do in advance, other than the office manager, who was organizing the whole thing.

      1. Anne S*

        This is how my office move a few years ago went too. I know it was a huge project for the office manager, but for the rest of us, it went very smoothly and easily.

    3. did this before*

      Just like with moving house – start the cleaning process and get rid of everything you possibly can before you actually have to start packing, so that you only have to move things you actually want to keep. Inventory those things so that you can pack them and find them easily. Give other people in the office deadlines and reminders to do the same.

    4. Artemesia*

      Make sure you jockey for your new space if that is happening. In my experience, people who don’t know how to get their paw in end up with lousy space.

    5. Lillian McGee*

      Funny story… we are a legal aid firm that represents tenants in evictions and 3 years ago we were evicted from our office. The building was sold and the new owners decided to gut it and make it into a boutique hotel. Nice, huh?

      I was not the office manager at the time (and my heart palpitates at the very thought…) but our little office fared very well because we hired a realty consulting group who managed the move every step of the way. So employees had to do very little.

      My advice is to label EVERYTHING on every visible side as clearly as you can. Years into our new lease we had boxes sitting around because no one knew what was in them and so took no responsibility.

    6. Betty (the other Betty)*

      I was part of the move of a large office several years ago. Several months ahead, each department had one person designated as a “move expert” (or a catchier title that I can’t remember). “Move experts” went to meetings explaining how the move would go so we could help the people in our departments pack and label things correctly with number codes for where the movers should place them: specific employees cubicle or room.

      Moving boxes and labels were provided early so people could get started.

      We had two days (a month ahead and two weeks ahead) that were “clean and purge” days. Trash, recycling, and shredding bins were brought in, and everyone was encouraged to wear comfortable clothes and spend the day cleaning out files and other stuff. “Move experts” were assigned to be sure public spaces were cleaned and packed. Regular work was put on hold those days as much as possible.

      By the end of the “clean and purge” days, most of the storage and public area stuff should have had a label on it. This is how we discovered a 5 drawer lateral file cabinet that no department was claiming, so someone checked the files and told the “move expert” of the correct department to have someone review and purge (since they didn’t even know those files existed, I think they ended up able to shred it all).

      The movers came in a few days early and moved things that were already packed and weren’t needed immediately (such as our photo studio and props, and storage room stuff).

      Move day was a Friday (with IT working over the weekend to get phones and computers installed in the new space). Again, everyone could wear comfy clothes, work was put on hold, and there were trash, recycle, and shred bins around for people who hadn’t finished that up earlier and for random stuff that was discovered.

      Movers came in to do the actual move. On Monday morning, employees went to the new office. Their boxes and office furniture were in their new offices or cubes. Again, this was a “wear comfy clothes and don’t expect to get much real work done” day as time was spent unpacking, setting up the kitchen and public spaces, etc.

      What we missed? One standout was art: no one was responsible for the paintings and framed posters and photos on the walls. The building manager (who was very excitable even on calm days) was thinking of putting it all in the trash. I ended up taking it all off the walls, stacking it for the movers, and taking the most valuable paintings home until a week after the move, when I brought them into the new office.

  75. legalchef*

    So… my boss just asked me if we get paid out for our unused accrued vacation days if we leave. When I (jokingly) said “is there something I should know?” she said that I should read between the lines. Dare I get my hopes up?

    1. Dawn*

      Yeah that’s pretty much a bald-faced admission of “I’m out!” Maybe don’t open the Dom Perignon yet, but put it in the chiller so it’s ready to be popped soon!

      1. legalchef*

        I’m trying not to get toooo excited, since she will sometimes ask random questions like that, and say things like “read between the lines” where there is actually no meaning, but I know she is unhappy, and is making it known to everyone who has ears that she is unhappy, and I know she’s been applying, so…

  76. Starfish*

    My boss falls into the “is bad and is never going to get better” category – he isn’t abusive or anything, just professionally inconsiderate and personally condescending and difficult to deal with. I accept this and am hoping to start applying for new jobs soon (I’ve been here for almost a year and a half). There is one thing though, that I think bothers me more than anything else, which are these incredibly condescending lectures where he tells me how to do things that I already know how to do (often better than he does because he doesn’t use the platforms we are talking about at all). I have thought about it and I am the youngest/lowest ranking person in our organization and I deal with a lot of imposter-syndrome type feelings so I don’t think that I am being unreceptive to legitimate instruction on how to do things or mentorship. These lectures are unnecessary – today he actually wrote on the white board beside my desk like a teacher would. So my question is: is there a way for me to push back on this? I have tried saying something like “that doesn’t seem necessary” when he treats me like a child (like asking me to get on an imaginary Segway scooter). But he pretty much just pushes and pushes until it feels tense and I have to do it. Is there a way to address this? If not, does anyone have coping strategies?

    1. caligirl*

      Unfortunately, I have had one of these types too… everything I tried failed. I ended up just smiling and nodding. I found that the more I commented, they took as an opportunity to tell me how wrong I was. Hang in there! Maybe try and use this as a learning what not to do.

    2. JMW*

      I think you are not going to change him, so I would suggest rolling with it. Keep it short and simple: thanks for the suggestion, I hadn’t thought of that, good to know, etc. He is likely to keep pushing as long as you push back, so agreeing quickly may get you back to work faster. Good luck. The imaginary Segway ride sounds really awful.

    3. jimbs*

      I probably would push back and be assertive, which could potentially cause some issues. It’s hard to say if it would help or hurt. Remember that people like this, who condescend or act like you are stupid, usually are incredibly insecure. It’s still annoying to deal with, but it really is about him and not you.

  77. Preux*

    Some of you might remember me as the OP from awhile back who sent out a resume with the wrong objective (oops!). You were all super helpful then, especially in letting me know I didn’t even need one, so thank you Allison and commenters! And I have good news, as of yesterday I have an offer for a position I’m really excited for!

    Here’s my question, though: this position will put me as a supervisor of a medium-sized team (like 10 people). I’ve managed very small teams before, and they were all people I knew before being promoted. Does anybody have any tips or resources for coming in as the new supervisor of a team that size?

    1. Bartlett for President*

      My first management position was like this, and I found people really responded to me sitting down with everyone individually and asking “what do you think about the team’s work is done well, and what needs improvement? what can I help improve to make your ability to do your job easier?” Basically, I made it clear I wanted to learn from them – and, then I held off on making any kind of process improvement changes for a bit so that I wasn’t just marching in and thinking I knew better than those who had worked on the projects for ages. There was some serious talent and institutional knowledge on that team, and I made a real effort to recognize that both privately and within the team. I think (hope) that made a difference.

      My worst manager ever (and the reason I’m no longer at that organization) had what I called “squirrel syndrome”. He was brand new to the organization, and had only a minimal understanding how things worked on our projects. So, of course he forced us to try every new shiny thing he could think of. It was hell.

      1. Preux*

        Thanks for your response! Especially with not changing the processes right away. I think that’s definitely something I needed to hear.

        1. Bartlett for President*

          It is so incredibly tempting to come in and just start improving things (or, at least making changes you THINK will improve things). I kept a running list of things that came to mind, and by four or five weeks in, I think maybe 80% of the list was crossed off because I learned more about the projects and their processes and realized the changes I thought of were a bad idea.

  78. Bartlett for President*

    Does anyone have any recommendations on a good resumé writing service? I simply loathe ever touching mine (which, yes makes me a tad bit of a prima donna), but I will soon be needing some work on it. The last person I worked through came highly recommended on LifeHacker, but was so incredibly condescending that I can’t bring myself to go through her again*. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    *She gave me a date she’d have a draft, and when it was three days past that date, I e-mailed to follow-up. Her response was something about “I know how hard is to wait when we want something,” and made me feel like I was being scolded by my mother for wanting my birthday presents early.

    1. Dawn*

      Quit being a prima donna, buy Alison’s “How to get a Job” book, and follow the advice given on this blog.

      Seriously no one will ever be able to advocate for you better than YOU. Take the $100-300 you’d spend on a professional resume writer and “pay” yourself to actually sit down and work on your resume. How much time would you be willing to spend re-writing your resume if you knew you’d get $300 once you’d finished that you could then take and spend on whatever you wanted?

      1. Bartlett for President*

        Thank you for the super helpful response! /sarcasm

        I get that some people think using writing services is a waste, but your response is incredibly unhelpful and rather pointless. Obviously I’m not the only person who prefers to use writing services since there is a huge market for it. I’ve made the decision that I’d like to use one, and was simply asking whether anyone has had any success with any they could recommend to me. Your response is akin to telling someone who asks “I’d like to eat more lean meats – does anyone have any recommendations for good recipes?” to go vegetarian.

        1. Dawn*

          It is an echo of advice that has been given here by Alison and by other commenters many, many times. I completely understand your desire to use a resume writing service – been there, done that – and I am encouraging you to save your money; again, from both personal experience and from reading the experiences of many people both here at AAM and in other corners of the internet.

          I do recall that in at least a couple of conversations here at AAM about resume writing services there have been comments from people who either run their own service or work for a service that they’d recommend, so starting there could produce some good leads!

          1. Dawn*

            Also ps totes didn’t mean to come across rude in the original reply; I’m sorry if I worded it wrong so it sounded rude. I meant to come across “Hey I got your back fellow AAM reader, I strongly suggest saving your money” but I should have followed up with a more useful reason as to why I was suggesting that. I hope I did so above!

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I think Dawn’s comment was a joke aimed at the twit you hired, not at you.

          I’d give the book a try. It certainly helped me, as did all the good advice on this blog from both Alison and the other commenters, many of whom are managers themselves. There are scads of posts here with resume writing tips. You seem articulate enough to construct a perfectly coherent resume on your own. Good luck!

        3. Peaches*

          Actually, it’s a bit like you are going to a vegetarian website and asking for recipes for lean meat. You aren’t going to get a lot of positive responses about using a resume writing service on a website that has a huge focus on teaching people to write better resumes and cover letters (and actively discourages using those kinds of services.)

  79. ACA*

    Just wanted to say that I am so grateful that my new job does not exchange Christmas/holiday gifts, not even with a Secret Santa. Having to find gifts for everyone at my old job was so stressful, especially since there were no “keep it under $x” restrictions. (The beautiful embroidered white kid gloves my overboss gave me were amazing, but I shudder to think at how much they must have cost.) I almost punched the air in glee when my new boss told me “Nah, we don’t really do that here.”

  80. voyager1*

    Okay the layoffs left on copier got me thinking to throw this one out to the group. Just curious what you would do/think.

    Manager has last day in Dec and new Manager starts about 4 weeks later. New manager in first week cleans out old manager’s office and moves much of her stuff to a open but secure room at night room. In other words anybody can come in during buiness hours.

    About a week or so after the cleaning I was in this room and found a thick folder with performance reviews for all current employees in dept plus some that had left. This folder was huge, went back probably 10 years.

    I left said folder where it was. I didn’t. rumage through it. The new manager did have a senior team member help her clean the office.

    Between the two of them neither seemed to notice the folder left there. There was a ton of stuff left in this room, most was not super sensitive.

    So my question(s):
    1. As a manager would you have not kept those reviews and not deemed them unimportant enough to at least store them in your desk? Or would you discard them? I have no idea if she read them or not.

    2. Would you as a team member feel
    comfortable telling new manager you found these reviews which she clearly did feel were important enough to put somewhere.

    Okay here is what I did, hope this doesn’t change any opinions of what someone would do. I personally left them where I found them. I personally did not feel comfortable taking them
    to the new manager at the time, however on my last day at this job about an hour before I left I told new manager I found them while using the shredder. I had major reservations about this new manager, this incident was a major red flag for me, even if it was a simple mistake, he was really reckless. The reviews sat unmoved for about 6 weeks.

    1. Bartlett for President*

      I would be very upset to find out my performance reviews were just left out like that. Personally, I think would have brought the documents to my manager, but being new would make me hesitate because I would be worried the new manager wouldn’t immediately believe me if I said “I didn’t look through these, and instead immediately closed the folder as soon as I saw what they were.”

    2. squids*

      Information management person here. First, I’m very not surprised that this happens. I get looped in on all of the information & privacy incidents for a fairly large organization*. Leaving things in an unsecured space is actually fairly mild.

      Best case scenario is that anyone in a corporation feels comfortable alerting their managers to situations like this. The manager is the one who screwed up and you’re the one who could have fixed the situation. Bringing it forward helps protect your co-workers’ privacy and in my mind would only have negative consequences in fairly dysfunctional workplaces.

      Much bigger question, is why are all these files sitting in an open room? Either they’re still being used, in which case they should be in the new manager’s control; or they’re inactive but needed for legislative, legal, financial, regulatory, etc reasons, in which case they should be in a secure location & identified as such; or they’re not needed any more, and should be destroyed. (Preferably all in alignment with any records management policies your org may have.)

      *If this happened in my org we would have been required by law to notify all potentially affected employees in writing, take measures to avoid it happening again, and report on all those actions to a regulatory body. Public sector, not USA.

    4. Jen*

      I recently had An Incident where a manager on my team left her Webex running and opened her performance review program and her team’s salary page and anyone that was still logged into her Webex (about 10 people were on it) could see.

      One of this manager’s peers (who also reports to me) came to me whining/indirectly complaining about the salary of someone on the team. I was totally flabbergasted- of course, Bonehead shouldn’t have left her screen out there for all to see. But her peer was totally inappropriate. I shut down the conversation but in all honestly, I’ve been thinking all week about having a conversation about confidentiality and professionalism. Peer saw something they shouldn’t have, but don’t make A Thing out of it. That’s like if you saw someone performance review in that folder then complained to your boss about Betty’s rating vs yours. Ugh.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      As a team member I would have no problem scooping them up and bringing them to him. Protecting people’s information trumps the boss’ bruised ego in my books. Since there was a ton of stuff in the room, I would have assumed it just got by the both of them, neither noticed.
      I do know that in some places reviews are kept in an unlocked desk/file cabinet, I have seen reviews left out and I have seen boss’ notes on employee behavior left laying around. I would just assume that this is more of that same sloppiness.

      BUT.
      I have no clue what else you saw with this new boss. And I am a firm believer that if your gut is saying “be quiet” then that was probably the right choice for your given setting.

      I reported a mistake to a new boss once. He lit right into me. Up one side of me, down the other, holy crap. I never saw that coming. I remained calm. I told him that was way too much reaction for an ordinary event. I showed him in the manual that we are supposed to report mistakes to the highest manager available. Then I went on to say that he had a much bigger problem than a mistake. He could not trust people, for some reason. And we talked about that. Actually we had a very good talk about that, it was amazing. He is on my list of favorite former bosses. (He left the company before I did.)

      I took on this whole event because the boss’ blow up did not fit with everything else I knew about him. I know that I would not attempt that with just anyone. Sometimes we handle things the way we think best and it might not be the ideal choice, nor a choice someone else will make. In the end, you were not solely responsible for reporting those files, and I was not solely responsible for reporting the mistake. That is important to remember.

  81. SJ in PA*

    how would everyone feel about your boss buying a standing conference table so all meetings would have to be standing rather than sitting, as a way to shorten meetings? And also locking people out of the room who come to the meeting late?

    I just read about a former governor doing this and my boss thinks it’s a great idea. Personally, I’d be pissed. I think standing should be an option for people at their personal desks, not a requirement. There have to be ways to keep meetings short and to the point without resorting to buying a standing conference table.

    1. Biff*

      Given all the discussion this week about businesses that make big changes and then run afoul of the ADA, and then EVERYONE loses….. this sounds like a terrible idea.

      How about an egg timer? Right in the middle of the table. Super cheap. Super easy. Will not cause ADA issues.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Well, it’s a great way for your boss to discriminate against people with hidden disabilities! And if I was putting out a (metaphorical) fire at the last second and missed the meeting time by 1 minute, I guess I’d just have to stay in my office and miss the meeting. Or does he expect people to knock, then grovel in order to be allowed entry into his fiefdom? I am obsessively punctual, as I do think it’s incredibly rude to make others wait, but I think he’s being at least as rude. Sometimes there’s a good reason for being late, but there’s never a good reason for being a tyrant.

      These both seem like tools for people who don’t want to actually manage.

      1. Biff*

        “These both seem like tools for people who don’t want to actually manage.”

        That’s a really good point.

      2. SJ in PA*

        yeah, I totally agree about the hidden disabilities thing — not to mention we have someone in senor administration who broke a leg in several places last year and has had surgery and physical therapy all year to get strength back. Obviously that person can’t stand all meeting. Would that person have to awkwardly sit in a chair way below the level of all the standing people and try to be part of the conversation?

      3. Tau*

        It doesn’t even rise to the level of a disability, but I have some issues with my feet that mean standing or walking for too long can get very painful. I would not be a happy camper, and would probably begin coming to work in hiking boots while daring people to protest.

      4. Lizzy May*

        Since everyone has covered the standing table, let me tell you why I hate the locked door. Teachers do that with tardy students. I hated it then and I was never locked out. If someone is habitually late, manage that problem, but locking the door punishes someone for a one-off tardy. At work, how can you even know if being late was the employee’s fault or if they got caught up in a work situation they couldn’t leave? I hate it.

        (I also hate the table, for all the reasons already mentioned.)

    4. Brett*

      I am just now recovering from a hamstring tear 18 months ago that left me with horribly painful IT band problems. Basically every time I stood in one place for more than about two minutes, it felt like someone was tightening a 4″ thick rubber band across my left leg lengthwise. Those would be really really short meetings.

    5. F.*

      Sound like a way to lord it over (literally) shorter people. Possibly a subtle dig against women, since most women are shorter than the average man. Besides, I can’t imagine having to stand in high heels for an hour or more. Nope and Hell Nope!

    6. CMT*

      I had a professor who did the locked door thing in college, and even as a freshman I thought it was incredibly condescending. Adults can be trusted to prioritize and manage their time.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      No.
      Absolutely NO. I would not want to stand throughout a meeting unless it were literally a minute long. Plenty of employees may not be able to do even that. Plus, locking people out of the room is immature. Sometimes they can’t help being late–our CEO was late to a meeting once because he was dealing with a customer. Not one person in the entire company would have faulted him for that.

  82. Risin3*

    About a month ago, my company went through a round of lay offs. One person whom I was on friendly terms with was let go. During this time, Company kept stressing that “It’s only business, it’s only business”. However, a week or so later, they offered to let her return to her original position because someone else on the team decided to leave. A little after his (maybe a week or so) she found a new job and decided to quit the next day…because “it’s only business” (although, I’m pretty sure she didn’t use that as the official reason).

    What are your thoughts on this? This was my first time experiencing layoffs, and it’s scary how they were so willing to let hard workers go (it’s only business). Company was doing what’s best for them, so why shouldn’t we do what’s best for us? I understand why, but I just don’t like it.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You should do what’s best for you. If your company is implying otherwise, they’re in the wrong. (Of course, “best for you” means in the long-term, not just the short-term, which means you shouldn’t do things like walk off a job with no notice, because you care about your reputation in the future.)

      Businesses do sometimes need to cut positions. Sometimes it’s because the whole business would flounder if they didn’t. It doesn’t make sense to keep people on when business needs have changed. A good employer will do it compassionately and as kindly as possible, and with severance and other forms of support where they can. But it is indeed a thing that happens, and it’s a reality you’d have to face if you were running your own business too.

    2. voyager1*

      Personally they should have seen the laid off employee as having no loyality. I think her leaving like that is fine INHO.

    3. MaryMary*

      I tell people the only person for whom your career is a priority is you. Sure, if you have a good manager they will do what they can to help you succeed, and good friends and coworkers will help you whenever they can. But everyone has other responsibilities and priorities. The impact to your career will only be a deciding factor if you’re the one making the decision (well, except for your spouse or significant other).

  83. Minion*

    So, I’m feeling a little vindicated this week. I work at an org that is very weird about some things – for example a person just retired and Jane, her direct report seemed like a good candidate for the job, so I asked the deputy director if Jane had applied and she said, “Oh, I don’t know. I can’t ask her directly, you know.” as if it’s a very well-known rule that we mustn’t ask employees if they want to apply or have applied for in-house positions. They actually wanted Jane to stay in her office with her door closed during interviews for the position because they didn’t want her to know who her competition was, which seems very weird to me. They refuse to give references on former employees because…well, no official reason, just general paranoia I assume and managers aren’t allowed to speak to someone asking for a reference – it all goes through HR.
    Anyway, I have heard several times that we can’t ask certain questions in interviews because they’re “illegal”. When I’ve heard that, I’ve mentioned that it’s not illegal to ask the question; it’s just illegal to use the answer to discriminate so it’s best not to ask those questions, but not illegal. I’ve been met with blank stares and an, “I don’t think so…”
    Well, yesterday all of management attended a webinar geared toward employment law and this was one of the topics discussed – discrimination and hiring practices and they very clearly said those questions are not illegal, though we shouldn’t ask and open ourselves up to claims of discrimination.
    I know…does it really matter if they think the questions are illegal? Shouldn’t the point be that they don’t ask certain questions regardless of their legality? Maybe…but I am one of THOSE people who really needs to be right, so I’m feeling a little smug and thought I’d just go ahead and smug it up on here too.

    1. Ad Astra*

      I’m one of those people too. It takes all the self-control I’ve got not to continue arguing with someone after I’ve corrected them and they insist they’re correct. It’s probably safer, from a legal/hr perspective, to just tell people those questions are illegal. But it drives me nuts because I can’t let go of how much I value being right.

    2. SJ in PA*

      I’m one of those people too — but my boss is the type of man who will insist he’s right even when shown actual evidence that he’s wrong (usually he says “I never said that! I would never say that!” when he put it in an email to me or something), and he’s also EXTREMELY moody, so it’s always best to just let it drop, no matter how much I’m internally seething.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think you may be talking over their heads. If they don’t ask the questions, do they really have to know why they don’t ask the questions? Either way, if they understand or don’t understand it still leads them to the same place: don’t ask the questions, remain transparent in what you do/say.
      I’d save my energy explaining this one. Probably something else will come up that is more pressing. I’d put my energy into that.

      1. catsAreCool*

        “If they don’t ask the questions, do they really have to know why they don’t ask the questions?” This!

  84. cuppa*

    I just need to vent.

    I think this is the third time that I’ve been screwed over at work because someone else involved threw a hissy fit and my manager didn’t want to deal with it and so they got their way. I’m really getting tired of it. I’m not willing to act like a child to get my way in a professional situation and it’s really beginning to frustrate me. Whatever happened to compromise and working things out? It’s just ridiculous. I feel like I’m being taken for granted as the one who will just deal with it so I always get the shaft. It’s so annoying and it’s beginning to make me angry.
    Is this common? I’ve been working here for long enough that I’ve forgotten if this would fly in a normal environment.
    Ugh.

    1. Biff*

      I had wimpy boss for three years. He was so confrontation adverse that we shipped sub-par work regularly. We also had several employees who figured out he was wimpy and used that as an opening to abuse more junior staff. When the people who had been taken for granted had enough, a sacrificial lamb was found. It was a bad situation.

      I think if you don’t see signs that this person will leave or be replaced, you probably want to get going.

    2. Vera*

      People quit bosses, not jobs. This was a big reason I left my last job… my OldBoss was just like yours. We’d all agree that Project A is my #1 priority, and I would not move on to anything else except Project A until it is complete. Someone would call and throw a fit because Project B is getting any love, and suddenly, I get pulled off Project A. Then someone is upset about Project A not getting done. It was so frustrating.

      I learned my lesson and at my NewJob, I tell my boss immediately, right when it is assigned to me, when a new project will impact the deadlines on other projects. And use it as a point for hiring more resources.

    3. Artemesia*

      Although you don’t want to throw a fit, how about sitting down and having a very assertive conversation about this pattern. So that wimpy boss does have to ‘deal with you’ when he screws you over — so perhaps he might as well deal fairly in the first place?f I can dream, huh?

  85. Not a cat person*

    Job hunting advice or support? I look at jobs and am not interested in any of them. I am in a big city and early in my career (so not yet specialized) so it shouldn’t be so hard! I think it is a combination of being disillusioned by my current workplace (so I worry everything will be as bad), trying to get into an industry that isn’t dominant in my city, and not really knowing what I want to do with my life. But I’m desperate to get out of aforementioned bad job situation. I’m trying to go to events in my area to network, but that takes some time. Any tips?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it may actually depend on what industry you’re in. Is that something you can share?

  86. peanut butter kisses*

    I work at a university with student assistants but I do not supervise them. A new hire this semester is a bit different. She is very good at her job, sweet, friendly, chatty, smart, … and she won’t leave when her shift is over. She ‘volunteers’ extra hours because she just ‘loves to help’ and ends up chatting about 6 or 7 hours after her shift has ended. The only way she leaves is when we close for the day.

    So from an HR point of view, is it a problem to have someone ‘working’ when they are not on the clock and could we be getting into a bad situation legally?

    1. Ruffingit*

      I would think yes you could have a major problem with this. She’s working off the clock. It’s nice she wants to help, but I’d take a hard line and let her know that she needs to leave when her shift has finished. You can explain you appreciate her wanting to help, but it’s not something you can continue to allow because of wage laws, etc.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’d be worried about the legal side of things but also if she’s doing so much extra work that could cause some bitterness and resentment later down the line.

      If you have to give her some critical feedback or have to take a tough decision that goes against what she wanted it will only cause trouble.

    6. F.*

      I’d be a little concerned about her not having anything better to do with her time. Maybe she doesn’t want to go back to an empty apartment or something like that. I feel a little sorry for her, though hanging around work is still not a good thing to allow her to do.

      1. the_scientist*

        In my experience people who do this basically fall into three categories:

        1) total brown-nosers/suck-ups. This category usually has a competitive edge and wants to be seen as superior/more helpful/more reliable than their peers, and often won’t hesitate to throw a co-worker under the bus to promote themselves.

        2) lonely and/or a bit of a social misfit. This might be the only real social interaction she’s getting, and if she’s young (it sounds like she is) she may just be thrilled that she’s found her “tribe” for the first time in her life. She may also genuinely love the work; but someone with healthy work-life balance probably doesn’t love their work enough to spend 6-7 HOURS hanging around, unpaid.

        3) workplace martyrs. Like the brown-noser, but with a healthy martyr complex- they’re taking on all the additional work because NO ONE else is capable of doing it. This becomes an issue when the martyr inevitably becomes bitter, exhausted, burnt out, and resentful, and starts lashing out at people.

        In any case, it doesn’t really matter which category she’s in. She can’t work off the clock, and she can’t hang around distracting her colleagues who are still working.

    7. peanut butter kisses*

      Hourly worker.

      JMO – She is lonely. I do have to say, she does take on a more student role off the clock but jumps in to help at the slightest ripple. There really isn’t much chance to outshine the other student assistants because they each bring something great to the job.

      Thank you to all who weighed in on this.

    8. Lindsay L*

      Ex-supervisor for student workers at a university library here. Is she working, or is she chatting with her friends? We have a big problem with students hanging around for hours, because their friend is working. We had to make a really clear rule that you can’t chat with your friends for longer than a couple minutes at the front desk. (I would note that it can be really awkward for the person still working to tell their friend to go away, so finding tasks for them is useful, as is letting them use you as an excuse to get them away.)

      Another thing with student workers is the usual, they’re new to the workforce and don’t know the rules. A gentle but firm heart to heart can be helpful.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It sounds like training general job skills is part of what you have to do here. I agree, tell her it’s not appropriate and she must leave once her shift is over. All employers expect this and it is expected here where she works now.

  87. Ruffingit*

    Finishing first week on the new job. My stress levels have dropped immensely. No one here is hostile, purposely ignores me, makes shitty comments, threatens my job…it’s like heaven. AND…I’m working on a place with lots of acreage that has horses. It’s beautiful with the fall colors and getting to pet the horses before I leave for the day. There is, of course, some of the new job/learning curve angst, but I don’t feel like shit when I leave every day and I don’t spend nights worrying about what is going to happen the next day and/or wishing my boss would die in an accident. So nice to be free of that level of stress.

    1. fposte*

      Are you sure you didn’t die, Ruffingit? I’d be sad, but it does sound like you’re in a much better place.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Horse therapy is the best! I go to my daughter’s barn and groom horses to relax. I wish I had some at my work.

      1. Agile Phalanges*

        I own a horse, and work at a company tangentially related to horses, and sometimes customers pull in the lot with a horse trailer, occasionally one that even has a horse or two in it. Is it weird that even though I own a horse, and can see/pet/ride one basically whenever I want (except when I’m at work), I get all excited and squee-y and go outside and ask if I can pet the pretty horsie?

        *whispers* Yeah, I thought so.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Yaaaaaay!!!!
      I’m also jealous—horses! All we have here is a huge flock of Canada geese, which walk out in front of our cars like “F*** you; I’m protected,” and leave big green globs of poo everywhere.

      1. Ruffingit*

        They do equine therapy at my job so they are related to the job. I don’t do the equine therapy as I’m not trained in that, but I love seeing the horses out and about.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      ahem…. some of us might be wondering if there were any more job openings? Just checkin’….

  88. Bartlett for President*

    Does anyone have any insight on how the PMP exam will change this coming January? I was planning to sit the exam before the change took effect, since my study materials are all based on the existing exam; but, due to 9 million things happening at once, I doubt I can prepare in time.

  89. CharlieCakes*

    HATERS GONNA HATE!!!!

    I just got a promotion and 99% of my co-workers are so happy for me. Like, surprisingly excited for me. It’s felt so nice to feel the love and I hope more positions open up so I can reciprocate when they get promotions too!

    Anyway, two people have been haters. I put one in her place (“I’m not okay with this. I didn’t know the position was posted!” to which I replied, “It’s been posted for months and mentioned multiple times in various meetings”) and the other I’ve just tried to avoid. She’s mentioned multiple times she can’t believe I’m going to get paid more than her (our salaries are public) and I’m not even getting paid that much more than her. Pennies really. Other people can’t make more money than you? Girl, bye.

    I know this will pass. Just venting I guess.

    2. TB*

      I love “I’m not okay with this.” I’m going to start using it every time I don’t get my way.

  90. Louise*

    Hi all! Long time lurker here – this is my first comment!

    I started a new job under 2 weeks ago. Some background: I’m a translator, and up until now (I’m 26) I’ve always been self-employed, except for a couple of years teaching English in China. This is my first ‘real’ office job; Ask a Manager has been invaluable in helping me work out and navigate office norms as well as actually getting this job in the first place! Thank you, Alison!

    I’m used to dealing with direct clients, doing some marketing, etc, so these things are familiar, but I have a question about copying people in on emails. I’m having a hard time knowing who to copy in and when. My company is small (around 15 staff), and there are only two real managers – the CEO, who is very hands-on, and the general manager. But most of us employees do a bit of everything.

    Any tips on working this kind of thing out? I’m already reading through back threads and trying to imitate email behaviour at work, and I imagine it’ll become more natural once I’ve settled in, but if there’s anything you can think of, please fire away!

    1. Dawn*

      If an email is sent to you as part of a group project and there’s multiple members then reply-all when responding with information, questions, updates, etc. If someone needs to drop off the email chain they’ll speak up.

      DO NOT reply-all if you just want to thank the original sender for something (you can send an email directly to them), or if you have a question for only one or two people on the team (you can start a side convo with just them within the same email chain.)

    2. Ad Astra*

      Feel free to ask! A lot of people/managers have specific preferences about when to copy them, and it’s not always obvious.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      When I am emailing blindly like this, I’ll write something at the bottom saying, “If I have missed someone, I apologize. If you notice that I have missed someone, please let me know and I will fix it.”
      Just let them know that you want to be told and you will fix the error.

  91. Jen RO*

    Just a semi-vent: one of my reports just told me that he is resigning. I am simultaneously relieved (his work was not really up to snuff) and dreading the increased workload and the training I will need to do.

    On the down side, my rock star report is also interviewing. There’s nothing I can do if she gets an offer (she wants more money, company is stingy, I don’t have my own budget), but I would be so screwed without her. If she quits as well, I will start planning my own exit strategy, because I am getting tired of the cycle of hire junior person – train him/her – have him/her quit for a 50% raise somewhere else*.

    * I know it’s huge, but I’m not in the US and this is a new-to-my-country field where a year or two of experience matter a lot, because the number of people doing this job in my city is probably less than 50. The pay we offer for a junior person (zero experience) is fair, but once they get this job on their resume, they can very easily get hired as a mid-level employee for a far better salary. Yes, my company sucks when it comes to raises…

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I hate companies that do that you habe to keep people’s salaries in line with their expireance! Or they vote with their feet and go else where for better money, it’s so short sighted and must cost a fortune in recruitment fees and lost productivity.

  92. Sarasaurus*

    I was just given a fairly quick and easy project by a coworker who is senior to me, but not my boss. He asked if I thought I could get it done today and I emailed back “I don’t see a problem with that, but I’ll let you know if I run into any issues!” His response: “Is that a yes or no?” Me: “It’s a probably yes.” Him: “It sounds like you’re setting yourself up to fail.” Umm, okay? No idea how to respond to that.

    1. Dawn*

      Don’t, he’s doing that thing that dudes do sometimes when they’re insecure about asking someone else for help and want to make you feel all bad about yourself or whatever. Do this project and remember to always add +2 days to the deadline of any other project he ever hands you so he’ll stop asking.

      Seriously I’ve worked with guys that do this and it’s like bro, *I see you*, you’re not as slick as you think.

      1. Dawn*

        Yeah after I posted I was thinking “man that’s such a PUA thing to do!” So yeah, dudebro is totes neggin’ you. Just giggle about his ridiculous antics and remember to never do anything for him again :)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          hee-hee-hee. He wants you to be more decisive then decide NO!

          “Gee, Bob it sounds like you got a hot potato there and you need someone who can promise you they will take care of it. Since I cannot promise you that, I am going to step back so that another person who will follow up can do so.”

    3. fposte*

      I don’t like his final comment, but it sounds like there may be a style clash here: he wanted a black and white answer and was frustrated with what he perceived as your hedging, and you’re like me and don’t like to say for certain until you know the terrain.

      So I don’t know that I’d bother to respond, but if I did, it’d probably be along the lines of “Nope, just that being careful is what makes me good. So this is as certain as I get, but I think it will be done by COB unless I hit a snag.”

      1. Sarasaurus*

        Thank you for this. I was wondering if I was being crazy, but your explanation makes a lot of sense.

  93. Anon...Anon*

    I’m a first-time commenter, but frequent reader of the blog. I just wanted to say that due in large part to the tips I’ve gathered from AAM, I found out today that I am receiving a 17% pay increase and an extra week of PTO! I didn’t even ask for the PTO, so that’s a nice surprise. Negotiating works — as does documenting your accomplishments and demonstrating your value. Thanks!

  94. Gwen*

    This isn’t really a question or issue, just kind of a discussion topic! I was wondering if anyone else has experience being a person in the working world with…distinctive fashion sense, shall we say. I dress vintage-inspired/retro/pinup a good 70% of the time, I’d say, and more with every shopping trip ;) I also generally “do” my hair with a full curler set and am learning more vintage hairstyles, wear sparkly cateye glasses, etc. I’ve only ever gotten positive feedback/compliments from coworkers, but I’m definitely aware that I tend to stand out (especially now that my hair is silver/purple, oops!). I guess I’m just interested in hearing about other people’s experiences; I always enjoyed hearing /seeing how Jillian Venters of Gothic Charm School worked her Gothic Victoriana style in an office environment. Anyone else a colorful character?

    1. Biff*

      I wear religious clothing to work. Everyday. Mostly people don’t care so long as it’s neat and clean and doesn’t impact work. I work with several people with very unique fashion or hair colors. I personally like it because it makes the office more colorful and fun. One of my office mates occasionally comes to work in vintage menswear and I think he looks spiffy.

      My personal opinion is that if someone cares overmuch…. that reflects on them, not you. So enjoy your vintage/retro vibe.

      1. Biff*

        Ehrm… obvious exception — the clothes should still be office appropriate. That is, don’t wear vintage beachwear or evening wear to the office. I mean, I’m sure you aren’t, but I want to state this in case it seems like I was saying something I didn’t intend.

    2. bridget*

      My wardrobe, work and personal, is deadly dull (mostly because I do not have a creative eye, and derive no joy from shopping or hunting for interesting things), but I love it when people around me break the mold and throw some color into the mix. I’m sure you’re within the bounds of office appropriateness and brightening the days of all those around you. You’d know it if you were in a profession or office where an alternative fashion sense came with negative consequences.

    3. Kelly L.*

      I have a dream of emulating Penelope Garcia’s style. I do wear the bright colors, but I wear pants way too often to be her, and haven’t worked up the nerve to put flowers in my hair yet.

      1. Gwen*

        A woman cornered me in an elevator once and said “Do you watch Criminal Minds?? You remind me of that tech girl!” It made my night (and doubley made my night when I tweeted it and the actress favorited it!) :)

    4. Dawn*

      I’m going to be a bit curmudgeonly here:

      I think it’s totally cool to have an extremely unique personal style and dress 100% in that style in your personal time.

      I think that it’s professionally acceptable to have elements of your personal style overlap with your professional life.

      If you work at a fashion magazine then I think there are no rules.

      However, I think that for 99% of all other jobs if someone were to show up head to toe in a personal “style” (be it vintage pin-up, steampunk, goth, whatever) then they’re going to get some serious side-eye about if they are capable of understanding what “professional” means. Sucks, sure, but it’s something that they’re going to be judged on and it will hold them back career-wise.

      I also want to ask if you’ve considered the implications of dressing vintage-inspired/retro/pinup on your perception by your male peers. You absolutely do not want to set yourself up for being objectified for how you look, but that style (and particularly how that style is interpreted in 2015) is absolutely glorified as a fetish thing. It doesn’t matter how smart you are or how good you are at your job if others objectify you based on what you wear. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t even have to have this conversation, but patriarchy and misogyny are kind of a thing we still have to deal with. Also, and again sucks I have to mention this, depending on how “fetishy” your vintage-inspired/retro/pinup looks are, there’s going to be backlash from your female peers as well who (unfairly) will judge you as being slutty/sultry/trampy/sleeping your way to the top.

      1. Vera*

        I agree with most of this. I think it 100% depends on your office, your role, and your career aspirations. I am learning more and more how true the “dress for the position you want, not the one you have” advice is.

        The style you describe sounds totally cool for non-work. But if I dressed that way in my job, I for sure think I would be taken less seriously and absolutely would be held back from promotions. And I bet my manager would say something to me about it.

        Again – totally depends on how casual and bussiness-y your office is, what your role is, and if you are looking to climb the career ladder.

      2. Gwen*

        Rest assured, I do not wear anything “fetishy” to work! Think Mad Men, not Bettie Page :) I do work in a creative position in a creative industry, and I’m definitely known at work for my skills first, not my wardrobe.

        1. Dawn*

          OK cool, I’d say “creative position in a creative industry” you could probably wear whatever you wanted to and be fine with it! Which, totes jealous over here for that!

        2. Ad Astra*

          What you describe sounds absolutely fine (and cute!), especially in a creative industry. My caveat would be to make sure it doesn’t look like you’re wearing a costume, but from your posts it doesn’t sound like that’s the case.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            I took my son to a school-sponsored trick-or-treat night, and I was wearing the same thing I am wearing at work right now–jeans, cowboy boots, plaid shirt. I matched what some of the high school girls were wearing for their costumes, and I couldn’t help wondering if they thought *I* was in costume, lol. But, plenty of people wear this at my office, so I’m not worried about looking silly here.

        3. Doriana Gray*

          I wear a lot of ’50s and ’60s style dresses to work, and all of the women in my office love it. The men tell me I look very classy and I’ve noticed that they all tend to treat everything I say as gospel. So it’s possible to dress “retro” and not be objectified. How you carry yourself will play a role in how you’re perceived dressed that way.

    5. Marcela*

      Although I don’t have any specific style, such as gothic or vintage, I am always dressed different from the people in my job, to the point most days I was told how elegant I looked or asked if I was going to a party.

      I am a physicist doing software development. Both areas are extremely casual, jeans, t-shirts, even ripped clothes. I wear “office attire”, Ann Klein style dresses and heels, with makeup and jewelry. I would never wear jeans to work (partly because I don’t like pants, but also because I have a scar on my navel, where the buttons of most pants are), so I was always in a different vibe as my coworkers. This happened even when I was studying, so by now I am very used to be different.

      I guess I am following, in a weird way, the classic advice “Dress for the job you want, not the job you have”. I mean weird in the sense that I don’t want a different job or get more responsibilities or be a manager, I just want to have a happy job. And just like I wear the clothes I like, while I try to look attractive to my husband, I dress like I’m happy to work everyday. My clothes are appropriate (I’ve never been surprised with a meeting, for example, something that did happened to my coworkers), so while I do stand up, well, it’s not a big deal.

    6. AnonAcademic*

      Hello from a fellow vintage collector and daily vintage/repro wearer :). I haven’t had a problem having a distinctive look in academia, in fact I think it’s an asset to be highly visible. I am a few months into a new position and did tone things down at first (more “classic” than vintage) but am now busting out the cherry print and polka dots and have only gotten compliments so far.

      For me personally I think what balances out my hyper-feminine dress and grooming style is that I have expertise in a technical field that other people are often intimidated by (a subfield of statistics). I know I can clobber most people intellectually/technically if need be, e.g. if I’m not being taken seriously or someone is mansplaining, and having that confidence seems to help me a lot. On the positive side, students respond really well to my personal style because I think it makes me seem more approachable and like someone who has interests other than just, well, my sub-field of statistics (which most undergrads loathe and fear in equal measure). It can also help disarm audiences when I give talks, so that when I launch into the heavy stats content it seems more unexpected/novel/engaging coming from me rather than some stereotypical disheveled engineer type.

    7. Jen*

      I have a friend that basically *is* the chick from criminal minds. She has purple hair, wears renaissance inspired outfits, and works for one of our intielligence agencies. She’s fluent in 4-5 languages and also has I think 2 masters and a PhD (could be 2 PhDs).

      She is bad-@ss and does her own thing.

      I also have a sibling that works for a white shoe law firm in NYC (women must wear suit skirts and hose-no pants!) and unapologetically wore light up reindeer antlers for the entire month of December every year. She horrified everyone. She made unprecedented amounts of money, has a loyal and lucrative client base, and is whip smart. She’s now a partner.

    8. Clever Name*

      My style is definitely mainstream, but I’m decidedly more fashiony than my coworkers. I’m a scientist working at a consulting firm. I also had a chunk of purple hair at one point. I’ve gotten nothing but positive feedback. We’re a younger company, so I think there’s less pearl clutching regarding how we look. A new hire has a facial piercing and our receptionist is working on a half sleeve tattoo.

  95. GigglyPuff*

    Does anyone know of any good resources, books/videos/training courses, to learn how to code VBA in Excel?

    Basically my job involves a lot of spreadsheets with a lot of information and it can sometimes be hard to track what you are looking at, so I wanted to find a way to highlight the current column and row. Well figured that out but made it more difficult to read, so I really wanted just a border. Finally figured that out, drove me freaking insane for the better half of a day.

    Anyway it got me interested and I’d really like to learn more since you can do a lot with it, but it doesn’t seem very intuitive. The resources don’t need to be super non-techie, I do have experience with basic to intermediate website coding.

    1. Vera*

      I know this isn’t helpful, but I generally just search the internet until I find what it is I’m trying to do. Unfortunately a lot of the articles I find have some really complex solutions. What I’ve found works better is finding someone at my office who is also an Excel nerd and we can bounce ideas off of each other.

      I love Excel, and every time I run into a new “problem”, it always adds a new tool to my arsenal. The only problem is that once people find out I’m really good with Excel, I am always tasked with making really elaborate Excel tools because I’m the only one who knows how or I can do it so much better/faster than so and so.

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      Stack over flow is a great site. Also vtconline is good but you have to pay for it.

      But mainly I agree with Vera, Google is the most helpful thing.

  96. Carrie in Scotland*

    Job descriptions vs actual work (job descriptions are essential pretty much in the UK).

    I looked at the job description for current job for a job app the other day. I do 2 out of the 9 functions and I think I only do one of them because.my manager is on long term leave (15 weeks & counting).

    In other words I do v little of what the job was described as. Is this normal?

    1. Jules the First*

      My job description has exactly zero overlap with what I actually do every day. In my case (in the UK), this is because the person who wrote the job description (HR) has absolutely no idea what’s involved.

      I usually consider the job description a vague outline, not gospel.

    2. TheLazyB*

      I’ve found them very variable, but they usually have more in common with actual work than that IME :-/

      How do you feel about the lack of overlap?

      1. Carrie in Scotland*

        Well, obviously I’m not happy in my job. I went for the job based on certain things on the job description…but what I do is about 1.5 out of 9 points. And I think most of that is because my manager has been off, otherwise she would have done the work.

        1. TheLazyB*

          I know, but I was wondering if that’s why you’re not happy or if it’s just a part of the overall picture.

          Either way though it sucks :(

  97. stellanor*

    My adventures with Horrible Outplacement Services continue. So far we have: unusably horrible resume, unusably horrible cover letter targeted to jobs I don’t want, job leads I already found myself, and job leads that require 3+ more years of experience than I have. And my ex-company is actually paying them for this, so I’m sending HR an email with feedback so they can understand what their investment is getting them in case they care about that (they might not, it might just be a bone they throw laid off people to make themselves look good).

    The cover letter is so bad I’m tempted to send it to Alison. It’s like a college career center and all the “what not to do in your cover letter” posts here got together and wrote me a cover letter.

  98. bridget*

    Resume question: How do you handle multiple titles/roles at the same employer, when those were not consecutive? This is a good representation of my relevant experience for the last several years, in reverse chronological order:

    Judge X – Clerk – 2015-2016
    Firm Y – Associate (gap year between clerkships) – 2014-2015
    Judge Z – Clerk – 2013-2014
    Firm Y – Summer (law student) Associate – Summer 2012
    Judge X – Intern – Winter 2012
    Judge Z – Intern – Summer 2011

    Basically, I had short-term positions with a law firm and two judges, which then turned into longer one-year stints with each of those jobs, but I hopped around between three of them, with none being consecutive. So if I list multiple roles under the same employer, then my jobs will no longer be in chronological order, which may be weird. If I stay in strict reverse chronological order (like above), it’s probably the clearest, but it takes up a ton of space and has each employer listed twice.

    I’m especially interested if anybody here works in big law and hires for post-judicial clerk associate positions.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Can you list each judge and firm separately, with dates – such as

      Firm Y (Summer 2012, 2014-15): blah blah blah
      Judge X (Winter 2012, 2015-16): blah blah blah

      I am not in law, but I’ve recently revamped my resume dramatically because I’ve been at one company for eight years but I’ve had six different titles in that time and wanted to highlight my skills first and foremost.

      1. overeducated and underemployed*

        This is what I do, and I order by most recent experience. So:

        Current employer, seasonal (2013-present)
        Previous employer, multiple term positions (2011-2012, 2014)
        etc.

        I don’t use months because a work history full of overlapping jobs looks a LOT neater without them, and it’s clear from the jobs and titles that they’re seasonal, contract, or student employment. Others disagree with this approach but I don’t think it’s deceptive, and I’m happy to clarify if anyone asks.

      2. bridget*

        Yeah, that’s one option. I worry that it won’t be immediately obvious to people what my career track has been, if they have to sort of look at the dates and rearrange them in their head to get an overall picture. But maybe I’m underestimating people.

  99. Xarcady*

    Feeling very grumpy about my retail job.

    A co-worker hurt her back on the job. She is still working, because the injury isn’t bad enough to trigger short-term disability. And if she doesn’t work, a) she has no money and b) she won’t have enough hours to keep her medical benefits. Full-time employees have to average 32 hours a week over 6 months to get medical benefits. They are only scheduled for 28 hours, meaning that they have to scramble to sign up for more hours, and that keeping their average at 32 is tough.

    So if you actually need to use your medical benefits and have to take time off to do so, you can lose those benefits for half a year. Great policy.

    And I was scolded by a manager because I went to the stock room and climbed the stairs and then up a ladder to get a heavy stand mixer for said co-worker. I’m supposed to let her work in pain, apparently, and do nothing to help. “If she hurts bad enough, she can call out.”

    Please, let me find a full-time job soon, so I can get out of here. It is destroying my soul.

    1. Sourire*

      I hope you find something soon, and that your coworker’s back feels better soon as well.

      You know what’s really sad though, the first thing I thought of when reading this was that I was surprised they even let you get to full time hours/get medical benefits. It’s so rare in retail, which is horrible in and of itself.

      1. Xarcady*

        Well, they have stopped hiring full-time people. But there are still some around, who were all hired more than two years ago.

        Technically, the company offers part-time benefits, if you can average 20 hours per week for 6 months. What those benefits are, no one knows, as no one has been able to average the 20 hours. I’m part-time and they are supposed to schedule me for 12-20 hours a week. But every time my average hours get above 19, they scale me back to 9 hours a week, or less. But I am assured this is “just a mistake,” and has nothing to do with keeping my hours below a weekly average of 20.

    2. Hlyssande*

      Just because it’s apparently not bad enough for short term disability doesn’t mean it’s not bad enough to treat.

      I really hope there is workman’s comp involved here. Your coworker needs to see a doctor if she hasn’t already – and probably physical therapy too. And the company needs to pay for it.

  100. RPL*

    Is it reasonable to request that I wait until after the holidays to start a new job?

    I might get a job offer next week (heard from one reference yesterday and another today that the hiring manager has contacted them–fingers crossed!). This is definitely me counting my chickens before they’ve hatched, but two weeks after next week or the following week will put me right in the middle of the holidays. A) That was my scheduled vacation for the year, and B) I’d rather not work a couple days, have a few days off when the office is closed for Christmas, and then rinse and repeat for New Years. So, reasonable to ask for a start date of Jan 4, or will that reflect badly on me?

    3. Sarasaurus*

      Totally reasonable! People generally get that this time of year is crazy. They might not even want you to start before then, anyway, as others could be out on vacation.

    4. MaryMary*

      I think it’s totally reasonable. There’s a good chance a lot of your new coworkers will be out of the office during the last two weeks of the year, it makes a lot of sense to wait until January to start. If you get an offer, just request a start date in January. Regardless of the time of year, you don’t really have to say if you’re giving three weeks’ notice, or giving two and taking a week if funemployment, or what. You just work out a start date.

    5. Lindsay J*

      Absolutely. I finally got an official job offer this month, and they proactively offered to let me start after the start of the new year if I desired so as to not interfere with the holidays coming up.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      At this point they will probably offer that to you, so you may not even need to ask. Don’t forget they have people taking PTO and they are going through the holidays also. A company with any real life experience under its belt knows to wait until January to start someone at this point.

  101. Laurie*

    I have a phone interview lined up for next week, and although I haven’t been job-searching for very long (3 months or so), I think job search fatigue has set in and I’ve started to sound bored on interview calls. The recruiter for this job picked up on it and advised that I start coming up with more enthusiastic answers.

    I feel like I do great in in-person interviews because I can tell from body language how much detail they want, but phone interviews leave me completely blind. I end up not following the ‘STAR’ approach and basically just answer the question too literally and stop talking.

    On that note, what advice does the AAM community have for acing phone interviews?

    1. Dawn*

      Find a picture of the person you’re interviewing with (or a picture of someone you’d want to impress if you were talking to them face to face), print it out, and look at it while you’re having your phone call.

      It sounds weird but for me it reminds me in my brain that “I am talking to important person!!!” and reminds me to act as if they are sitting in the room across from me. Makes for a great phone interview I’ve found.

    2. KW*

      Prepare notes in advance for common interview questions! I actually did this for all interviews, but the advantage of a phone interview is that you can look at your notes :) Not that you ever want to just read word-for-word, but I find it SO helpful to have thought in advance about some bullet points or at least ideas. The questions I prepare for are: Tell me about yourself, why are you interested in this position/company, greatest strengths, and where do you imagine yourself in 5-10 years.

      You might also try “power posing” for a few minutes before the interview. Google it- I don’t remember what the power poses are except the basic one is standing up tall with your feet a bit apart and your hands on your hips.

  102. Sourire*

    A couple of comments from the “baby mama” update have me wondering about everyone’s experiences with an employee being forced to go to mandatory sensitivity training, particularly following an infraction of some sort. Has it ever helped? And if it did, you do think something actually clicked somewhere deep down inside, or is it more of a “well, at least the employee isn’t making those types of comments out loud anymore” type of thing? Did the employee become bitter about it?

    I ask because while we all go through mandatory sensitivity training at my job because of what we do, we did recently send one of our employees back for another/a different session because of some comments he made that others found offensive. He still makes these comments (though is more careful about his audience), complains about the person who “ratted him out”, and basically seems to think it was a joke. Setting aside that my company should be doing more about this, it’s just very demoralizing in general that the training not only seemed not to help, but possibly made things worse. I suppose I’m just wondering if it ever works out for the better or is it truly nothing more than a CYA move…

    1. F.*

      Some people’s behavior is truly incorrigible. If the offending employee does not learn from this second session, then the employee will eventually be caught and fired. It sounds like your company takes this seriously, as they should.

    2. Catherine from Canada*

      Because of my reports to the principal about a teacher’s treatment of my son (yelling, belittling and insulting the kid during a parent/child/teacher meeting), the teacher was sent for anger management training. (I gather other parents complained as well.)
      It seems to have helped, he seemed to learn his limits and how to avoid crossing them; after the training was completed, the teacher asked to be transferred from a Grade Seven class filled with (normal) uppity 13 year olds to a Grade Three class where he shone! Really, he changed from one of the most-dreaded and avoided teachers in town to one of the most-loved.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        That’s a good outcome!
        I can’t condone the teacher’s behaviour, but I do understand how frustrating kids that age (or even high schoolers) can be. The snark factor can get pretty high. It’s just the age, but it’s still annoying.

    3. Anon for good reason*

      The chief of my division has been sent to a sexual harassment refresher and more recently a several day sensitivity training after a particularly public debacle. This is in addition to our yearly training. And no: he is still an ass.

    4. Lindsay J*

      Yeah, call me cynical but I don’t see these things having a great outcome.

      I would imagine most of the times these situations with sensitivity training or forced apologies turn out the same way you experienced.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The reading that I have done pretty much says that you have to send them back for refreshers. There may or may not be some short term results and then you find you are back to square one. It’s a bandaid on something that requires dozens of stitches, a bulky pad and yards of gauze.

      Personal observations bear this one out for me. The person goes to classes and within a relatively short period, needs to go again.

    6. catsAreCool*

      I think it depends on the person. If I had to guess, I’d say a few people probably “get it” and change how they do things, some probably learn what not to say but don’t understand why, and some just get angry.

  103. Argh!*

    Frustrating day. I perhaps goofed up, and wasted time. OTOH I’m not wasting time talking to my boss about proposals I’ve made because my boss won’t answer my e-mails about it. So I had time to check in here before the end of the day!

  104. First Time Manager*

    I am a first-time manager and I am looking for book, podcast, or training recommendations.

    Specifically, I am managing employees that are just starting their career. I do not want to be a micromanager, but I have found in the last few weeks I have to REALLY hold their hands and REALLY stay on top of them and REALLY break down projects into granular steps with deadlines for each step just to get the production I need. It is driving me crazy.

    My other management struggle is that one of my employees really wants to be promoted into the next level position, but I find that he struggles with making decisions on his own. Some of this I feel is confidence and some may just be that he wants to check with me. He will even say things like “This is your decision” to which I’ll reply, “Since you are owning this project, I want it to be your decision. Would you like my opinion?” – so it’s not that he doesn’t know he CAN make the decision. Similarly, he won’t speak up (again, confidence?) in meetings or on e-mail chains if he questions what someone is saying. He has come to me after meetings and asked if Susie was wrong when she said the teapots will be made out of butterscotch next year ? Because this e-mail from yesterday says we’re going with dark chocolate. And I’ll say, “Why didn’t you say something?” and he’ll say, “Because I wasn’t sure”. I try to explain that the whole point of meeting is to flesh out these issues, and it’s not going to be seen as rude to ask if someone made an error. How can I help him improve these skills? He wants to be promoted, but I can’t recommend him for a promotion if he’s afraid to point out people’s errors.

    As you can see – I need help! Any recommendations for resources?

      1. First Time Manager*

        Thank you! I think I read before that this is more geared toward non-profit, and I work in a for-profit company. But I will add it to my wish list for Christmas anyway, I’d love to read it!

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s geared toward nonprofit managers, yes, but 99% of applies across sectors. (It’s more that the specifics in the examples are nonprofitty … like if we’re giving a sample script for a conversation, it might reference your volunteer coordinator or someone else nonprofit-specific, but the substance applies either way.)

          1. Hellanon*

            Your book has joined my stack of bedside reading (things I look at frequently) because I’m moving into a new, more management-focused role after the first of the year, and I know it will be terrifically helpful. As the site already has been, and will continue to be…

  105. nonprofitprofessional*

    I commented here a few weeks ago about what to wear for an interview, which went really well! I have a second interview with the Executive Director and a tour of the facilities early next week. I’m told this is the final interview and I’m one of two final candidates.

    I have 2 questions:

    1) What should I wear for THIS interview? Should I wear my suit again or can I go a bit more casual, i.e. a long sleeved black dress with high heeled boots and a nice scarf?

    2) What kind of questions would an ED like to hear? I have a pretty long list of potential questions already, but I’d love more ideas :)

    1. F.*

      Tour of the facilities = shoes/boots you can comfortably walk and stand in. You don’t want to be in foot agony.

    2. Lillian McGee*

      1) Dress & scarf sounds nice.
      2) EDs love to talk about The Mission so come prepared to talk about the issues surrounding the organization’s work. Read up on what’s going on in the area of work (example: I work for a housing law nfp, so if I were interviewing here I’d try to find recent affordable housing/fair housing articles to bring up) The ED is very likely to have read recent news articles that relate to the org’s work, so ask about any of those you can find.

  106. JustAnon*

    Interview question here! I’m interviewing for a position that is located in City A (not my current city). If I get the job, I’d be the senior person in the 7 person office – my leaders would be located in City B. It’s possible that I will be offered this job without having visited the office in City A because if I do a face-to-face interview, it will be in City B.

    I want to ask if I can talk to 1-2 people in the City A office before I make a decision on the offer. Thoughts? I have never accepted a job without visiting the office, but I’ve also never worked at a location where I’d be the senior person. It’s a small satellite office. I’d like to get a feel for the team, how they work, etc and factor that into my decision making. Plus I don’t want to get surprised by a dog-friendly office or bedbugs or something!

    1. Vera*

      I think it’s reasonable that you should be able to see your work environment before accepting the offer.

      But asking to meet the people… hmm. Would they report to you? I didn’t get to meet anyone from my team during the interview process, but I did ask a lot of questions of the person who was currently managing them.

  107. CrankySquirrel*

    My company, in the interest of going green, has removed the paper towels and dispensers from the bathrooms in the building. Instead, we have these noisy but not so efficient blow driers. Well, people don’t like them, so they’ve taken to using the toilet seat covers to dry their hands. In response, management has resorted to posting signs in the bathrooms instructing people to use the blow drier and stop wasting the toilet seat covers. We’ve even received emails to this effect. Can it really be that bad to just let us have paper towels?

    1. Vera*

      As an alternative, can you propose they replace the not-efficient blow driers with the Dyson AirBlade style?
      Or….this is extreme…but if people really want towels maybe they could bring in their own personal cloth hand towel?

      Personally – I prefer a no-towel environment for the going-green aspect. If you give people an option of both paper towels and hand driers, 99.9% of people will choose paper towels. The only way to get people to use the drier is to give them no other option.

      1. CrankySquirrel*

        I doubt they would replace the hand blowers. Also, some people don’t like touching the door handle with their bare hands, because you always get some other people who don’t wash up after they go. So, the paper towels are useful there as well. (The toilet seat covers are now also being used for that purpose.) I can’t see bringing my own personal towel with me to work. What am I supposed to do with it aside from when I’m in the bathroom? It just doesn’t seem practical. Personally, I prefer the paper towels.

        1. Vera*

          If you’re afraid about people washing up, why not keep a small bottle of anti-bacterial at your desk and use it each time you return from the bathroom? This is what I do.

        2. Tami Taylor*

          I’ve been to a restaurant that had some kind of nifty foot-powered door opener so you don’t have to touch the handle. I doubt the company would bother with that, but I totally wish I had a portable version.

          And, in this situation, I’d be tempted to bring my own paper towels.

        1. Windchime*

          Me, too. They’re the only blow driers that actually work. In this situation, I’d probably bring my own hand towel and hang it in my cube in an inconspicuous place. Either that, or my own roll of paper towels. But yeah, I’m not touching the door handle with my bare hands after washing them, especially if other people are going to skip the washing altogether and wait till they get back to their desk to use hand sanitizer.

      3. Observer*

        Did it ever occur to all of the advocates of forcing people to use the dryers that there is a REASON why people choose the paper towels? The reason simply is that they don’t work well for a lot of people. And, they are only environmentally friendly if people use them as “designed”, which they don’t because 9 times out of 10 you need to run the cycle at least twice in order to get your hands fully dried.

        On top of that, they are not all that sanitary. You have to press the same knob that who knows how many people have touched, in the bathrooms, and you have no idea how well people have washed their hands. Really not so great.

    2. Xarcady*

      Seems to me the next logical step for the company is to remove the toilet seat covers. Then what will people do?

      1. CrankySquirrel*

        I’m going to imagine that they’d try to use the toilet paper, making a huge mess. Thankfully, I think the toilet paper has to stay!

      2. Marcela*

        Ugh, no, please don’t do that. One of the things I love the most about the US is the toilet seat covers. Although we presume of being cleaner, women’s bathrooms are not super clean either. That habit we were taught when young, squatting over the seat without touching it, it’s not as hygienic as we think, and the best solution is to have toilet seat covers. Mother of all cats, this is an ewwww matter!

        2. catsAreCool*

          I was never taught to squat without touching the seat, and I’ve read that the squatting is actually unhealthy. I wish people who do this would at least wipe the seat afterwards! Anyone who does this, please know that no one wants to clean your urine off the seat. Clean up after yourself.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Have they tried putting up signs for how to efficiently use the driers? It might seem a little silly, but when I traveled outside the U.S. many places have signs, like that you need to rub your hands while drying for the machine to really work well.

      Then you know, people could just use their sleeves or bottom of their shirt to open the door, like you typically do at places that don’t have trash cans near the door.

      1. Marcela*

        Well I hate them not because they don’t work (or that I don’t know how to use them), but because they are just too noisy. And there is nothing to do about it.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          I’ve used air driers that are so loud I’m pretty sure they are damaging my hearing. They hurt! If yours are that loud, complain about that safety issue.

      3. Observer*

        The problem is not that people don’t know how to use them. I’ve seen the signs, and followed the instructions. Plenty of other people do, too.

        As for making people use their shirts or sleeves, in many places that’s even more impractical than bringing your own towel. And, honestly it seems quite inappropriate to require that from your staff. And, btw, people don’t not use the available paper towels just because there is no trash can near the door.

  108. BabyAttorney*

    So, ah, our office just put up holiday decorations. Mostly harmless (shiny wintery things) but there are nutcrackers and a tree….nothing else religious though. Should I be concerned for our non-Christian employees feeling a little left out? Or is this totally normal and I am strange for noticing a lack?

    1. Sadsack*

      I don’t view trees as especially religious, even though they are called Christmas trees. I wouldn’t say anything on behalf of others. I think if someone else feels slighted, they should say something.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        See, that’s the problem with being in the minority, you often assume that you just aren’t invited to the party. How true that might be depends a lot on how good communication is in that office, and who was responsible for buying and putting out the Christmas decorations. If the office manager put them out, then it’s probably assumed that those are the company-approved decorations. If everyone did their own area, though, I can see how you might think it’s up to each employee.

        1. BabyAttorney*

          Small company, and I am in a position to recommend changes our additions and be taken seriously.

          I’ll swing by our office manager and check with her on whether she pulsed the office on decorations.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’ve probably said more than enough about this for one week, but I guess I’m on a roll: It’s true that Christmas trees aren’t religious symbols in that they’re not, like, images of Jesus. But they are a symbol of a Christian holiday and are not secular. I won’t repeat the discussion from earlier beyond that, but it’s here for anyone interested.

        That said, I think it’s fine for offices to put up Christmas decorations. It’s a major holiday that most people there probably celebrate. (The exception would be really religious decorations, like a creche.) (And frankly, as discussed above, lots of Jews dislike attempts to give equal time to Hanukkah, since it’s a minor holiday for us.)

        But whoever is organizing this should take the pulse of your office, since different people feel differently. And of course, it’s one thing to have decorations up and a totally different thing to assume everyone celebrates Christmas, pressure people to participate in singing carols, or otherwise neglect to notice that your office probably has a bunch of diverse people in it.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          In the interest of full disclosure after my various rants on this topic this week, I feel I also need to add that I really love Christmas decorations and generally Christmasy stuff. They’re not mine or my holiday, but I love being around them and looking at them. And having married someone who celebrates Christmas, I get to have a Christmas tree in my house, and I adore it. I’m sitting next to it right now. But it’s not mine :)

          I had to say that to balance out the rest.

          1. Sourire*

            I went and bought myself my very first Christmas tree this year and it makes me so happy to look at it. It’s just a baby 3′ one, but I’ve always wanted one and so it’s a start. Growing up Jewish that was really the only thing I missed/was upset about during the holidays. I have always thought the trees are gorgeous and wanted one so badly.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      As a life-long non-Christian, I don’t see nutcrackers as a symbol of the holiday as much as the season. If you’re going to have a tree, though, it might be nice to have some other symbols out, too. Are you in the kind of position where you can ask your employees if they have any decorations that they want to add, or would like the company to add?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Oops, I meant ask if anyone wants to add a menorah or something related to Kwanzaa, Tet, Ramadan, or whatever.

        1. Susan*

          well, this year, it’s about six months late for Ramadan, but I’m sure the thought would be appreciated ;)

        2. Katie the Fed*

          And Tet is in February. I love that people want to be inclusive, but please recognize that many of the world’s religious holidays don’t occur at the same time every year.

        3. Observer*

          No, don’t do that. Not have other decorations is one thing, even though some people might be unhappy. But putting a Menorah ON the tree? No way, no how. I can’t imagine that a faithful Muslim would feel very differently about Ramadan.

          The question itself is likely to offend. For one thing, it’s quite ignorant. At least Chanukah generally falls out in the same time of year. Ramadan is generally a Summer thing. And as far from Christmas as Chanukah is as a holiday, Ramadan is even further away. It’s not even a “holiday” in the way we think of holidays, but rather a “holy day” (rather series of days..)

          For another it’s quite condescending. I understand that that’s probably not what you meant. But, what the questions says is “Here is THE holiday. Would you like to add something on?” Chanukah is, as Alison says, a minor holiday. BUT it’s a full fledged holiday in its own right. It’s not an add on to anything, least of all to the holiday of another religion. I get that you mean to be inclusive, but that shouldn’t mean subsuming other religions (or cultures) into the mainstream one.

    3. Sourire*

      Jewish (well really agnostic) here. Wouldn’t bug me at all. Then again, I am currently donning an ugly Christmas sweater in preparation for a party, so perhaps I’m not your target audience.

    4. Lillian McGee*

      Our office deals with this issue semantically… we’re not celebrating Christmas, we’re celebrating the end of the year! Even though the decorations are green & red…

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I’m sure this is done with the best of intentions, but… as someone who doesn’t celebrate Christmas, I have to say I’d be kind of insulted if someone put up red and green decorations and claimed they’re “for the end of the year”, for the reasons Alison states in her comment above. You want to get secularly festive? Silver. Stick with silver. Or gold or something.

        1. Kassy*

          I felt like this in college when they closed for Good Friday but called it a “designated holiday.” If you’re going to honor the holiday, say so; if not, don’t stop classes (I wouldn’t have cared either way). It would be one thing if the day off were always the first Friday in April and that year it just happened to coincide with Good Friday, but it wasn’t.

    5. BeeBee*

      I really don’t get this oh we must be careful about hurting people’s feelings. People celebrate Christmas and it’s not something to be offended by. We really need to get over this “sensitivity.”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        No one’s feelings are hurt by the fact that other people celebrate Christmas. The question is what’s appropriate for an office that wants to be inclusive of a diverse staff.

      2. Tara R.*

        But it can definitely be something to be offended by if the company makes a huge fuss out of celebrating Christmas, pressures non-Christian employees to participate, and then completely ignores non-Christian holidays. :)

  109. Anon for this*

    Oooh, I have something I’ve really been wondering about. Going anon for this because I plug AAM all the time to people and I don’t want someone to see this and know more about me than I want them to. :P

    So I’m a staff member on a fairly popular fanfiction site/forum, and lately I’m wondering whether I should be putting it on my resume/talking about it in my cover letter – and if so, how to do it. It’s come up because I’ve been unemployed for awhile and when I’m asked, “So what have you been doing with your time?” I’m never quite sure whether I should talk about it, because on one hand it’s a super nerdy pastime but on the other hand is kind of relevant for some of the things I might be applying for in the near future. It’s probably the best and certainly the most recent demonstration that I’m a good mentor to kids and young adults. In addition to the work I do there re: activities, our social media stuff, etc, I also probably read 10,000-25,000 words every day to ensure that stories being posted are rated appropriately and don’t include a lot of the problematic stuff fanfiction often does – incest, graphic sex/sexual violence, etc – because it’s very important to us that we be a kid-friendly site.

    Does that belong on my resume? And, if so, how on earth do I list it? :/

    1. fposte*

      Some fields more than other, maybe, but I’d think so. Put it under “Volunteer Activities”; the number of words read doesn’t seem that useful to me, but the fact that you’re doing social media, some kind of activities that could presumably be more vividly enumerated :-), and content triage all indicate some pretty good skills, and if you’ve been doing it a long time it’s a good indicator of commitment. Alison has an older post about somebody who ran a fan site for a boy band (I’m afraid I can’t remember which one) and owned it big time in her resume, which worked out well for her.

    2. F.*

      If it is relevant to the jobs you are looking for, then I would emphasize the aspects that relate to the specific job for which you are applying. Keep it professional, though, and know your industry. I received a resume for a receptionist/administrative assistant position with a cover letter detailing the writer’s participation in the furry community. While they might have been able to pull this off in some industries, it didn’t work for us, as the writer told how they knowingly went in costume into areas where they knew they weren’t welcome just to stir up trouble and the writer used their wonderful people skills to get them all out of trouble. Just nope.

    3. ModernHypatia*

      I have a couple of similar projects on my resume. In general, I highlight the transferable skills (Used X-widely-used-software tool to manage Y. Coordinated A, B, and C. Trained # volunteers) and make the description of where I was doing it as clear as I can for someone outside the area of interest.

      In one case, it’s a religious group, so I note ‘religious interfaith organization’ but don’t name it (because naming it would immediately identify my religion), and in another, I do name the organization, but make it very clear what I was doing (event coordination, board member with duties involving M,N, and O.)

      I’ve gotten several comments in interviews over the years that the fact I give some kind of scope helps a lot – that the volunteer thing had a commitment of about 10 hours a week, or the size of the events I helped plan.

  110. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

    I am in a project management type role where I often work with people that are ranked above and below me.

    A VP (ranked above me) often sends me- and me only- rude or jerky e-mails. For example, he sent an e-mail inquiring about if he could get some advanced copies of some deliverables. The answer was long and complicated, so I replied “Let’s talk about this on Monday before our meeting!”, and his reply was “What do we need to talk about? Why does it need a separate conversation?”.

    Another example: I received an e-mail on Monday from a vendor directed to myself and two others internally, for which one of my co-workers needed to work with the VP of Sales to reply to. Since I manage the relationship with the vendor, I replied to my other two co-workers and CCed the VP of Sales. Here’s the e-mail string:

    Me to two co-workers (CC VP): All – have we provided a response to our Vendor yet on this inquiry? I believe this is normally something CoWorker1 would run point on with the help of VP of Sales, but please correct me if I’m wrong!

    VP to me: Hard to answer when I am not on the original email. First time I am seeing this.

    me to VP: Good morning, Happy Wednesday! My reply was directed to CoWorker1 and CoWorker2; I had you CCed just to loop you into the conversation. I didn’t mean to imply that we were waiting a response from you….sorry if that was unclear.

    VP to me: Your email said All.

    Me to VP: Sorry for the confusion, when I said “All” I meant those in the “To” field. I’ll be sure to be more clear when addressing e-mails in the future.

    When I am meeting in-person or on the phone with the VP, things are hunky-dory, and perfectly pleasant, and we always seem on the same page. But our e-mail interactions leave me so confused. I am really struggling with why I am receiving e-mails like this but really, what the best way to handle them is. To be successful in my role I need to have a really good, positive working relationship with this VP…and obviously I can’t just avoid e-mail.

    Anyone have suggestions on what I should do next time I get an e-mail like this?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      Maybe he’s just short through emails – nothing sounds especially egregious from the outside (although I would probably be put-off if I were you as well!)

      Sorry – this posted below as well!

    2. Dawn*

      VPs get a bajillllllion emails a day. He sounds like he’s getting annoyed at (in the first instance) not getting a clear answer from a subordinate about a direct question and (in the second instance) being annoyed that he’s being CCed on something that he knows nothing about.

      In the first instance, I would have responded: “That’s a long and complicated answer. I can type up a bulleted summary if you’d like, however, we will be going over this in depth in the upcoming meeting.” In the second instance, I would not have CCed him on it at all since it seemed like he didn’t know what was going on in the first place.

      Keep emails with all higher managers extremely short, to the point, bulleted if all all possible, free of superfluous verbiage, and make absolutely sure that you do in fact need to email them before you send the email (can you call or have a face to face or can it wait until a scheduled meeting instead?) Their time is usually massively stretched so be sure not to add to that!

      1. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

        Thank you for the feedback and especially your example replies.

        I guess since I work with other VPs that don’t reply this way, it catches me off-guard.

      2. CrazyCatLady*

        I agree with this advice! I probably would not even engage in the back and forth with him and instead, just take mental note for next time to either not CC him or be more clear.

        1. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

          In the first example (“What do we need to talk about? Why does it need a separate conversation?”) I didn’t engage / reply. To which he then sent an e-mail to my boss complaining about me not giving an answer….so it didn’t really work for me.

          Added context to the above, though, is that the e-mail exchange happened on a Saturday where it was very clear I was in the office and working on clearing e-mails at that moment. So he knew I was purposely not engaging, which apparently made him more upset.

          Just feel like I am being picked on, but the replies here have re-calibrated my thinking on the situation. Thank you!

          1. Dawn*

            Yeah from what you’ve described it’s not “rude” in the traditional “This person is being very gruff and short with me because they are being not nice” it’s just typical VP short-direct-and-to-the-point that seems to be the norm with (some, not all) VP and above level execs. I mean I totally have run into upper management who are chill, laid back, don’t mind long emails at all, however they are the exception and not the rule.

            It’s DEFINITELY a shock when you first run into it, however just file this away as a “OK this is how this VP works” and modify how you talk with him in the future.

            1. Jen*

              I am a VP and often guilty of short replies. I get over 1,000 emails a day. Sometimes people are jerks but more often, they are trying to stay on top of email-I assume people would rather get a short response than no response.

              And I hate email banter. In that last exchange if have just IM’d you or given up.

          2. Dawn*

            Also, “I didn’t engage / reply. To which he then sent an e-mail to my boss complaining about me not giving an answer….so it didn’t really work for me.”:

            Don’t ever, ever, ever ignore a direct question from a higher-up. No bueno. Especially in this instance where you would have easily been able to explain your reasoning. If you’re asked a direct question always have an answer, even if the answer is “I don’t know right now but will research and get right back to you on that!”

            1. fposte*

              Agreed on the answering a direct question.

              Also, I really, really dislike getting cc:ed midway on a conversation. I don’t have the context, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do about what you’re sending me, it’s not a good use of my time. Please at least frame it with an in-text note that identifies what has already happened, why you’re looping me in, and what you want me to do.

              1. fposte*

                In fact, this makes me think of Sarasaurus’ similar question upthread–I think the VP may be annoyed that the answer to his direct question seems to be “No,” but that Dealing hasn’t simply said that. Dealing may be taking the question to be deeper than it is, and as a result he’s being left without an answer. If I were the VP, I’d be looking for “No, there are some issues. We can talk Monday if you want to know more.”

                1. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

                  Both your points are well-taken. Thank you. I get the impression that this VP doesn’t like No for an answer, but you’re probably correct on that was the right way to respond.

            2. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

              My boss asked me to FWD any e-mails from this VP when he is not CCed, and he specifically told me not to engage/reply to that mail.

              But yes, point taken.

              (PS you are awesome Dawn!!! Wish I could just e-mail or text you all of my work problems. Ha!)

              1. Dawn*

                *grinning like a maniac*

                I must give credit where credit is due here, though- I have had some AHMAZING mentors through the years and the only reason that I know enough to give advice like this is because I’ve been taught… usually as a result of making a mistake!

    3. Jules the First*

      Your VP sounds pretty literal and I think, honestly, I can see how some of your emails might be rubbing him or her the wrong way. For example, if I ask a junior for copies of a report, I expect to get them or a good reason why not. By replying ‘let’s talk Monday’ you’re not giving the VP any idea why you can’t help, just the impression that you’re holdig out. A better answer might have been ‘Hmmmm, that’s tricky for x and y reasons. Can we discuss before our meeting on Monday?’

      And now that you know your VP doesn’t pay attention to whether they’re in the To or CC field (which admittedly can be a bit tricky in some email programs, especially on a phone), you need to be very clear who you are expecting to respond. Maybe add a line after your salutation “Dear All (FYI only, VP)”?

      1. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

        The “let’s talk Monday” e-mail wasn’t my idea, it was by boss’s. It wasn’t how I would have replied but my boss wanted me to take the convo off of e-mail. It didn’t work!

        1. fposte*

          Sounds like there’s more going on here than just communication between you and the VP, then. Hopefully your boss is making wise choices on how to handle that.

          1. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

            Yep – I’m stuck in the middle between the two VPs, as I have the VP I report to and I sort of unofficially dotted-line to this other VP, which is why it is so important I build a good working relationship with him. It’s a tough situation to navigate. But ultimately I report to my VP, so I err on the side of my VP Boss for how to handle these situations.

            1. fposte*

              If your boss leaves you some wiggle room, you might try, in the future, of thinking of this VP not as gruff but as literal, as Jules the First says, and looking to cut through nuance for a quick answer. If he asks for a yes or no question, give him a yes or a no. If you forward him something, write a single line to tell him why. Etc.

              1. Jules the First*

                Ahhhhh…two-boss syndrome.

                Speaking from ten years of experience reporting officially to one boss (currently the COO) and being dotted-line responsible to a second (the CEO), you should NEVER ask boss 1 how to deal with boss 2 – because they are already (I can guarantee it) uncomfortable with the dual reporting, they have very different styles (it’s quite rare to get split reporting to people with similar skills, because if they had similar skills, you could just report to one of them), and when you ask boss 1 how to deal with boss 2, you are implicitly asking boss 1 to back you up in your dealings with boss 2.

                Is there someone at your level working directly under the VP that you could go to for advice in communicating effectively with him? If not, your next best option is his PA, who can help you understand VP’s communication style and what works.

                1. Dealing with Rude E-mails*

                  Thank you for the additional info!

                  Unfortunately no PA / EA to the boss. No one else at my level that works for the dotted-line VP, but one person does come to mind….buuuuuut…… I’m still trying to build credibility at this job, and I have paranoia* that if I have discussion like that with this person, that it will get back to dotted-line VP.

                  *Is it paranoia if it has happened several times already?

              2. Not So NewReader*

                I love this idea of thinking of the boss as literal minded.

                I would like to add, when people go back and forth in email well, it is usually because they know each other. Email is a part of how they communicate but they have plenty of experience in person to fill in gaps in emails.
                Not only do you not have this here, you have the additional pressure that this is your big boss. ugh, ugh, ugh.

                You might get some benefit from thinking along a line similar to this: You know when you first have people over your house, you act differently than you do with people that have been over 100 times? Like the first timer, you show him where the bathroom is. Okay, he wants a glass of water, so you pour him one. In other words, you do all these little courtesies because he has never been to you house before, he doesn’t know where anything is and you want him to feel comfortable. You may not extend the same courtesies to someone who has been to see you 100 times. They know where the bathroom is, how to get a cold drink and they are already comfy in your house.

                I think if you throw additional tidbits of key info into your emails, you will find the communication is less choppy. Right now, given your example, I would just describe communication as choppy. It’s two people who are really not used to to working together trying to find a path through all the “stuff” that needs to be discussed.

    4. olympiasepiriot*

      Bear in mind there are a lot of Dr. Meeting & Mr. E-Mail people out there.

      (Dr. Jeckle was the kind one, Mr. Hyde the homicidal one, for those who might have forgotten.)

  111. CrazyCatLady*

    Maybe he’s just short through emails – nothing sounds especially egregious from the outside (although I would probably be put-off if I were you as well!)

  112. AV*

    Hmmm… I’m not sure how to word this question, but I need the advice. I work at a school, not as a teacher, and sometimes I feel like the teachers here sometimes view me as not as smart, or educated, or “less than” in some way because I’m NOT a teacher. Not every teacher acts like this, but I definitely get that vibe from some of them. In all honesty, I have the same amount of education with them (I have a degree too!!!!111), but it’s in a different field.

    For example, a new teacher told me that I shouldn’t let the kids find out that I’m NOT a teacher because they “won’t respect me” once they find out I’m not a teacher!! I didn’t even know how to respond to that, I’m pretty sure the kids are smart enough to know that I’m not a teacher. It’s pretty obvious!! Her advice just left me dumbfounded.

    How can I deal with this?

    1. One Table*

      I think the only way you can deal with this by having confidence that you are not “less than” and having an expectation that teachers treat you with a professional demeanor and students treat you respectfully. As long as this is happening, what is the problem? Not much to do here but continue being your awesome self. It would be nice if everyone would recognize your value, but that doesn’t always happen for many of us. Or other forces could be at play — for example, teachers view you as part of another department, or are overwhelmed with their own workload, or whatever.

      The answer to they “won’t respect you” could be a simple “yes, they will.” I’d consider the person that said that to you to be a bad apple and not a reflection of reality. Since you’re dumbfounded, you must not see any reason to believe otherwise?

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Wow.
      Maybe this new teacher is feeling pretty inferior herself, and that’s why she unloaded on you. Still, very rude.

      FWIW, I can’t remember ever thinking any less of school personnel who weren’t teachers. If anything, I respected the school secretaries more because they actually worked IN the principal’s office. And kept everything running. And our school nurse? Good Lord, she was awesome.

    3. Sara*

      What is your role? Honestly, unless it’s out of sync with your school culture (which would surprise me), if you’re in an instructional or instructional support role (like a behavior support paraprofessional or an aide for a specific subject or class) I think it’s totally appropriate to refer to yourself as a teacher in front of the kids. My students are taught that anyone who helps them in school is a “teacher,” so even though I’m the only one in my room who actually has a teaching degree, they’re expected to treat my paraprofessional and my CityYear corps member with the same level of respect they would show me or my certified-teacher colleagues.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “If we are all focused on teaching the kids to respect us, then this should be a non-issue.”

  113. Susan*

    How do I figure out if working at a start-up is going to give me a nervous breakdown?

    The thing is, I was always dead set on going (possibly soul-sucking) corporate, for the sake of safety and stability. But there’s also this tiny little start-up, which basically has a me-shaped opening in their ranks, and it’s so, so tempting because it would also be an opportunity to be a reasonably sized fish in a small pond, rather than guppy in a shark tank.
    It’s already reassuring that the CEO seems to be a guy with a decade+ of previous life in Big 3 management consulting, rather than some college drop-out with a photo of Elon Musk under his pillow, but it’s still kind of daunting.

    I have already reached out to a (distant) acquaintance who, last I knew, worked there (haven’t heard back yet), but I could use some advice on asking the right questions! Any suggestions, dearest community?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      If say give it a shot, big soul sucking corporate will still be there if it doesn’t pan out.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Don’t become that old person in the nursing home who says, “I should have taken a few more chances in life.”

  114. Jessen*

    I hate getting caught in the “you need experience to get a job” trap. I can’t afford to be doing internships or temp work, which seem to be the biggest suggestions to get experience. And I can’t really manage to support myself on the sort of unskilled work I’m getting – I live at home because I can’t get enough job to move out, and I hate it. But when I look at even basic professional jobs I’m being told I’m up against people with at least 4 or 5 years of experience and I have no shot.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That can definitely be frustrating, and we’ve all been there. The issue isn’t really that you need experience to get the job. As you noted, it’s more about whom you’re up against. The hiring manager’s primary concern is finding the best candidate. If you’re amazing in person but not so amazing on paper, and she can find someone who’s just as amazing in person but also amazing on paper, she’s probably going to hire the other person over you.

      When my spouse and I have been in the situation you’re in, what got us out was really someone willing to take a chance (or desperate—hard to tell). It may take a long while, but if you’re persistent, you may just find that person / situation. Best of luck!

    2. Xarcady*

      If you could get longer-term temp jobs, could you afford to do them?

      I was laid off, and have been supporting myself with temp work and a part-time, evenings and weekends retail job. The temp work is keeping my skills current, and has given me a few leads to job openings, and I’ve added a few people to my personal network.

      Temping in the right sort of job could get you the experience that would give you a boost on job applications.

      It’s worth at least contacting a few temp agencies to see what they have to offer. As an example, I’ve been temping at one company for all but 8 weeks this year, at a couple of different positions, with a pay range of $13-$18/hr.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s mostly that I need something I can move out on, and soon. So I need something stable enough and well-paid enough that I can actually spend the 600 a month it takes to rent a studio around here, and still have living expenses.

  115. Kat B.*

    Hi everyone – this is way far down the page but would appreciate some advice. I have an interview at a cool company that would be a big bump in pay and would get me into an industry I’ve been trying to break into for a while. However the company is very small, ~15 people, and therefore does not have to provide FMLA. I’m planning my second pregnancy next year and obviously this would be a concern to me. I know they have STD coverage but that only provides 8 weeks of leave, which I know from experience is not enough time, personally, to be off with a newborn.

    What is the best way to bring this up with an employer? Obviously I would wait until the offer stage, but how can I word it without any red flags?

    Thank you!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      If you are looking for leave with-out pay I’d leave that out of the conversation until you actually get pregnant. Go work for them and make them love you, then you can negotiate time off for a child.

      1. Kat B.*

        Yes I would be fine with it being without pay, as that’s what is standard for FMLA and the 8 weeks of STD would be paid (although at a lower % of my salary). What happens though if they say no, and I’m already pregnant? I might be counting chickens before they hatch here, but the idea of going in without a plan makes me nervous.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Asking about their maternity policy in the midst of asking about other benefits makes sense to me. They may not have one. We lacked a number of “you’d think they’d have it” formal policies when we were tiny. But it’s a normal question. Unless they are living in a cave, you should hear back “3 months”, which US is now a pretty standard expectation.

          If they get weird and squirrely that’s a piece of info as to whether you want to work there, yes?

          1. Kat B.*

            Thanks, this is definitely in line with my thoughts. I will just try my best to bring it up casually when asking about details regarding health coverage etc. Lack of maternity leave or weirdness surrounding work/life balance would be a huge red flag for me at this point in my life, even with a significant pay increase. I appreciate your reply!

  116. Bob from Accounting*

    So, the boss gave everyone at work an iPad to use for work. He also told us that we could use it for personal stuff too. While I’m still trying to figure out how to optimize the iPad for work (I need at least Microsoft Excel or an Excel equivalent and a numpad), any advice as to what personal stuff to leave off the iPad?

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      Try an app called numbers for an excel style program.

      Don’t have anything on the iPad you wouldn’t want the whole office to see or youre not prepared to lose! Automatic back ups can be taken so other people could see your files and they can be automatically wiped remotely.

      Use it for shopping, internet banking, reading the news, booking a flight maybe some music or films for commuting or traveling for work and that sort of thing

      1. F.*

        Do NOT use it for shopping, banking or anything where your personal information is out there! Wiping does not always remove everything, and you never know to whom it might be issued next.

    4. Ad Astra*

      I’d recommend limiting your personal use to things like Netflix and Temple Run. Even benign personal photos and such can feel awkward if someone sees them at work. And, for security’s sake, you may want to be careful about storing any of your personal data. I can’t say I’ve ever heard of a factory reset not properly wiping information, but the safest thing to do is treat it like a shared device.

    6. SL #2*

      I’d use it for browsing, Netflix, probably some games… but I wouldn’t use it to store photos or for banking, for example. Nothing that you wouldn’t want your coworkers stumbling upon.

  117. Noelle*

    Good news, I am being considered for a huge promotion. I’m very excited, especially since I’ve basically already been doing this job (I have terrible impostor syndrome), just without the recognition or the pay. I should learn pretty soon whether I get the promotion.

    The problem is that I started my current job about a year ago, on a team of five. My boss is leaving and if I get the promotion, I will be the new manager for my current coworkers. Two of them are great, but one is a problem. She started a few months before me and was immediately aggressively competitive with me when I started. She was constantly giving me commands, speaking down to me, insulting me in meetings, and acting as though she was my superior (my boss did nothing about this, so another reason I’m glad he’s leaving).

    With my boss gone, I’ve been assigned to run our department in the short ter. My question is, how do I deal with my coworker if I become her manager? She’s been extremely nice to me lately, which is not a surprise because all year she has only been nice to people who she sees as important, while being condescending and rude to everyone else. In addition to her attitude, she’s also really bad at the job. Some of it could be fixed with better management, but not all of it. My boss handled her by making me and my coworkers do all of the work, and fix all of her work, but he never documented it anywhere so there’s no track record. How do I handle this situation if I do get the job (fingers crossed!)?

    1. Jules the First*

      Exactly the same way you deal with all the other people on your new team: find out their strengths, coach their weaknesses, set clear expectations, and give honest feedback when they don’t meet those expectations.

      You never know – maybe she didn’t get on well with your old manager but she’d flourish with the right guidance?

      1. Noelle*

        That is how I plan to do it, but I don’t think it will help. She has a very bad attitude, thinks (and tells everyone) that she is better and smarter than everyone else, and responds to feedback by becoming extremely confrontational and aggressive. I know I will need to basically start over if I end up managing her, because my boss didn’t. But I’m skeptical that it will actually be successful.

          1. Noelle*

            Yes, I think that is the best way. I’m also trying to make sure that my own bias against her doesn’t influence how I treat her, and the best way to do that is to give clear directions about expectations, follow up, and document the results.

        2. Artemesia*

          Be very clear in your own mind what good quality work and productivity look like and make these goals clear and then give frequent feedback.

          I would sit down with each team member and have the ‘how do you see the team?’ chat to gather their ideas about what is working well and not. When you make changes, reference the valuable feedback you got from team members when you did this. Even if you already have a list of things you want to do differently, by doing it after consulting each of the team members you give everyone the sense that they have input and that you are listening and plan to fix whatever is getting in their way of doing a good job.

          In dealing with the problem employee, it is critical to focus very very clearly on measurable outcomes. Don’t have other people fixing her work or doing her work — if she messes it up coach her through doing it correctly even if that means walking her through it step by step a couple of times. If she then does it correctly provide positive feedback. Deflect any whining and crying and ‘unfair’ and ‘no one every told me my work wasn’t fabulous’ back to the specific issues of quality and productivity standards.

          If she is capable of doing this, feedback and positive reinforcement will work. If she isn’t, you are building a record.

          1. Noelle*

            That is great advice, and I’ve been pretty successful at coaching employees through work in the past. I do have to start over with setting clear goals and expectations, and actually holding her accountable if she doesn’t meet them. I think it will be a struggle not only because of her attitude, but because my boss has refused to deal with any of the problems. I imagine there will be a lot of push back and whining about how I’m being unfair, but hopefully it will eventually work out. And I think it’s also good to talk to the other team members about our department and how to make it better. Needless to say, with this employee and my boss refusing to manage anything, morale around here is not great.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Realize that you have the good fortune of understanding what is wrong here before you even start. Managers can get bamboozled by people like this but you won’t.

      Also know that you have a secret weapon: AAM.

      There are so many things going on with this person that you could probably target two or three things and that would be enough. Someone with that attitude will not pull it together unless there is an entire change in attitude.

      Be fair and be consistent. X report is due COB on Friday. This does not mean first thing Monday morning. It means Friday. It does not mean Jane, Bob and Sue have to have it in on Friday but Mary and Joe can skate to Monday. Fairness and consistency is when you mean what you say and you say what you mean. This will carry you through many situations.

      Mary breaks her leg on Thursday. Of course, she will not have her report on Friday. So you let it go. People realize that you understand “life” happens and they will be treated the same if they have an unforeseen emergency.
      Bob comes in and cries every Thursday that he just cannot get his report in on Friday. You coach him and/or just plain tell him the report has to be done on Friday (whichever seems to be necessary). People see that under ordinary circumstances you expect work to be completed on time. You don’t play favorites no one gets an unfair pass.

      You’ll be better able to see how you want to handle things once you are in the position, too.

      1. Noelle*

        Consistency is definitely going to be important. My boss was incredibly vague and disorganized and it caused a lot of problems. Not only did this employee think that it was fine to roll into work two hours late and leave early without completing any of her assignments, but my boss would oscillate between yelling at her and then feeling bad when she sulked and then telling her how awesome she was. My boss was afraid to give her honest feedback so she was never held accountable, and I think even now she is completely confused as to why she isn’t doing well here and people don’t want to work with her. Consistency and clarity could go a long way in making our department run better. I don’t have high hopes for this employee but you never know, maybe she will change her attitude and turn it around.

  118. TheLazyB*

    The office I work in is mainly occupied by my company,but there are another 2-3 companies there too. The building is run by a separate company.

    It’s a government org and we hotdesk, there are 8 desks for every 10 members of staff, standard for uk govt orgs.

    A week or so ago we got an email saying hey, the building isn’t very festive, we are going to have a collection to get a tree and other decorations!

    My gut reaction was absolutely, utterly not.

    Just wondered what you guys thought :)

    1. fposte*

      Absolutely not on the decorations, or just on the collecting for decorations? I don’t like the way they did it, but I think some people really like decorations and will be happy to chip in and/or handle them, so I would just leave it to the enthusiasts and not worry about it.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Oh dear, I should have been clearer :) the collection is for a big tree in reception. Teams provide their own decorations, and if I had an area, I would be happy to help decorate. (But I don’t have a team area yet… Spring probably. Sore spot.)

        I think the thing that bugged me most about it, though, was that the collection is ‘we’re coming to all floors so you can donate YAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!!’ rather than ‘if you want to donate this is how’. I know it’s hard when we can’t access the floors of other companies but the obvious way round that is to leave the collection on reception.

        I’m not normally a grinch but this made me feel like one!

        1. fposte*

          Oh, directly hitting up people is obnoxious–I’m totally with you there. Unpressured opt-in, and if it doesn’t happen then that means nobody wanted it that much.

          1. TheLazyB*

            Posting about it has actually made me feel better by helping me figure out what was bugging me :) I can move on now haha!

    2. Carrie in Scotland*

      In this case wouldn’t the building company do it? I had a admin job that was in a building shared with about 8 companies and there was a tree and lights in the reception area that was supplied by the people that owned/ran the building.

      Not cool hitting people up to do it though :(

      1. TheLazyB*

        You would think :( but no. It’s a ten letter company who runs the building… I..S… You may be able to figure it out from that? Big provider of cleaners and reception and maintenances in England, although I’ve actually just realised I’ve no idea if they work in Scotland. They sure don’t work in England (ba dum tish)

  119. Ex Boss Badmouthing Me?*

    I believe my former boss has been badmouthing me to others. A couple of people who work elsewhere but in our field and have interacted with my boss have blocked me from following their social media accounts after my boss turned on me. I have not said or done anything to these other people that would warrant this. In fact, their social media accounts are all public.

    What should I say to these people to clear my name when I don’t know exactly what’s being said about me? I already tried the “have I done something to offend you?” message and received no response.

    1. fposte*

      Ooh, frustrating. You definitely can’t chase them any more, because that will just be counterproductive. Is there any mutual contact who might be able to garner an idea of what’s happening?

      When you say your boss turned on you, what do you mean–was there anything she accused you of that could be what she’s saying?

      1. Ex Boss Badmouthing Me?*

        We’d always had a great relationship inside and outside of the office, then she turned on me middle school mean girl-style. I don’t get it either but it’s been a scorched earth kind of thing.

        1. fposte*

          But what do you mean “turned on you”–did she say bad things directly to you, burn your house down, stop talking to you, what?

  120. Kas*

    Hi, everybody.

    The future of my current role is in doubt because of lack of funding (I work in research in an academic setting). So I’m job-hunting, with my manager’s blessing. My question for the commentariat is – should I mention in my cover letters why I’m job-hunting? I am applying for roles similar to my current one, so the decision makers would be very familiar with this type of funding issue.

    Thanks!

    3. Not Karen*

      No, a cover letter is about why you want to work for the company to which you’re applying, not why you don’t want to work for your current company.

  121. Amber Rose*

    I’m now a director on the board of a non-profit. Of course, the whole thing is just the board since we only just barely had enough members to make a board. What a ridiculously fancy title for such a small thing, hey? :D

    We’re trying to figure out what we’re allowed to do for funds as a non-profit without violating any rules. I’m having a hard time turning up specifics though. I know I can’t get paid, and I’m pretty sure we can sell stuff like shirts as long as proceeds go to the group and not anyone’s pocket but… can we do like a 50/50 draw? Can we do a lottery for prizes? Do we get any benefits/funding from the government?

    We are not a charity, mind you. So we’re not tax exempt I know.

    Any ideas for where I can look for answers to these questions? We’re in Canada and I think our status is specific to Alberta.

    2. schnapps*

      Start by contacting the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) – they can give you lots of information (and really, they are helpful!). And there’s already lots of information on their website. Service Alberta would be a good place to start too (I just googled “Alberta non profit rules” and it was one of the first hits).

      For raffles, etc. contact your the Alberta Gaming & Liquor Commission (here in BC if you want sell raffle tickets, have a 50/50 etc, you need a gaming licence)

      I’ll put some links in the next message.

        1. Amber Rose*

          You rock, thank you! I think I was googling the wrong keywords. I’m surprisingly terrible at searching. -_-

    3. Brett*

      Lots of great advice already. I learned from helping organize an annual trivia night for charity that small gambling events just were not worth it. If you were running a monthly bingo night or something larger than that, it could be, but the hoops on just a simple raffle were huge. In our state, only religious organizations can run raffles without at least a bingo license. The reality is that, in most cases, no one is going to report you to the gaming commission for a 50/50, but it is probably not worth taking that risk.

    4. Peach*

      On the offchance you’re in Calgary, check out the Calgary Chamber of Voluntary Organizations or Propellus. They both have great resources! If you’re not in Calgary, they could probably point you to their equivalent organizations in other cities/towns.

    5. Al Lo*

      I do know that in Alberta, the lottery rules for under a certain amount are significantly less onerous than for over it. My organization is doing 2 smaller raffles this year, rather than a big one with the trips/cars prizes. A small 50/50 is likely covered under the easier rules.

      I’ve also done skill-based “lotteries” — in one example, at a carnival type event, people paid to participate in a ring toss, and if they got the ring on the post, the prize was a draw entry for the prize. Because it was skill-based, it didn’t count as a lottery, since they were technically paying for the chance to throw the ring, not the draw ticket.

      Silent auctions (including online silent auctions) are also not lotteries — if you can get items donated, you can run pure profit on that. Since you’re not a charity, you don’t have to worry about receiptable value of either item donations or the payment.

      As others said, though, look into the specifics. Something small probably won’t trigger anyone checking up on you, but it’s better not to risk it.

      I second the recommendation to check with CCVO. I think you’re in Calgary — I remember you talking about CCEE last spring — and they’re a great resource. In terms of funding, you could also look, depending on what you’re doing, at foundations like the Calgary Foundation or CADA for grant opportunities. Some of them are open to non-profits that aren’t charities, or even to individuals, but it depends on your discipline.

  122. DriverB*

    I’ve been an AAM lurker for several months. Hello! I want to thank Alison and all the commenters here for the great resources and community advice.

    About six months ago, my fiance and I bought a condo and moved to a different part of our metro area. I thought I would be able to transfer to my company’s other office in that area (which includes some people from my department), and cleared it with my supervisor and other project directors. A few days after we closed on the house, the department director called me in for a meeting to say that I couldn’t transfer because face time in my current office would be better for my career, and also, not fair for everyone else in my current office who might want to move. He made some placating statements about transferring eventually, but I left his office royally pissed off. I have excellent relationships and already turned down more teapot research than I could handle, and our company is supposedly known for being flexible – we have lots of teapot researchers across the country that don’t even work in an office at all! His decision meant that instead going down from a 2hr roundtrip drive, I would be going UP to THREE HOURS roundtrip, in heavy traffic. He has apparently continued to complain about ‘trying to keep DriverB happy’ to my supervisor and other directors since.

    That shortsightedness is now biting him in the butt. I just accepted a position that is a 20 minute bus ride from my new house, AND a 5% raise, AND doesn’t limit my advancement based on the amount of new teapot research that I can bring in. I’m sad for my supervisor and my other awesome coworkers – I’ve been there for almost five years, I really liked my job, and wasn’t planning to leave. But I’m now excited about the new team and possibilities, and also about getting my life outside my car back! I interviewed with this new team for one position back in July, and it didn’t work out (it was slightly out of my expertise, but with similar skills) – but gave it a shot when another role on the team opened up in September. They were really excited that I was still available.

    Hang in there, guys! Your light at the end of the tunnel could be just around the corner.

    5. Artemesia*

      This sort of story makes my heart happy. Screw him and the horse he rode in on. So many people are trapped in bad jobs with bad managers and have to eat it — so glad you were able to let him harvest the consequences of being a dick.

  123. Anonsie*

    I’d like to run a poll: If you email about something with someone and you later have an issue with it somehow, how hostile is it to just attach the previous emails and just point it out as fact?

    People always tell me they do this but I can’t imagine this doing anything other than really infuriating people. But boy do I want to sometimes.

    1. Noelle*

      I don’t think it’s hostile if you approach it right. I’ll typically say something like, “I wanted to make sure I remembered this correctly so I went through my emails and found that we had agreed to this approach (or whatever makes sense here). Here are the emails below for your reference. I wouldn’t view it as hostile and if I received that my most likely reaction would be, “oops, I completely forgot about that.” It wouldn’t make me angry.

      1. Anonsie*

        Hm maybe the side note I need here is that the only times I ever need to do this, it’s because someone is upset already but also totally wrong.

    2. Gwen*

      I think it would seem hostile to just attach it with no further comment (like you’re throwing it at them), but I definitely attach old emails with something like “According to my files (attached), we decided on X; did that change?”

    3. Apollo Warbucks*

      I did that today, a co worker emailed me saying can you send me that information I need, he’d add it three days a go so I just forwarded the sent Mail, it was quicker and easier than creating a new mail.

    4. Doriana Gray*

      I do this all the time and never thought of it as hostile. *shrugs* As long as people aren’t nasty in their response while doing this, I think it’s just a quick reference.

    5. schnapps*

      I have one coworker who asked me why his teapot was due in November when he asked for it to be moved to January.

      I looked into it and called him and said, “So on Friday the 13th, you asked for the due date to be moved to November. I can move it back to January if you like.” He apologized, said he totally forgot and asked me to move it to January.

      We have another staff member who is a repeat offender in this way. He’s also long-winded on the phone so I tend to email him. And I attach the emails.

      Overall though, I think people respond to a phone call better when you say, “Hey, you know, I think we’ve got some crossed wires here. On Friday the 13th, you asked me to move the deadline for this teapot to November. Can we sort this out?” All said in a really non-confrontational way.

    6. Lindsay J*

      I’ve totally done it before. (Though usually in response towards someone initiating hostility/blame towards my department.)

      It’s nice to be able to pull up an email and say, essentially, “here, this is when we were instructed to do things this way and by who. You were part of the conversation at the time. Are you now asking us to do thing another way instead? I just want to be clear on this.”

  124. Sparklejockey*

    What do I wear to my husband’s work holiday party?

    I suppose this is halfway between the Friday and Sunday open threads, but here goes:

    My husband got a new job in November as an engineer at a very high-profile company, basically doing the job he’s
    dreamed of since he was five years old. He moved 900 miles away to start the job a month ago, and our kids and I
    will join him in June when the school year is over.

    We found cheap airfare for the weekend of the company holiday party, so I’ll be joining him next weekend, getting
    a tour of the facility, and then attending the party in a city an hour away. ALL of the info he has on the party is this:

    “Hello,
    As mentioned in your orientation we have our Holiday Party coming up. It’s at the (redacted) convention center on
    Saturday, December 12th at 7:00 PM.
    If you would like to attend please let me know. You are permitted to bring a guest to the party. If you are
    planning on bringing a guest send their name as well and I’ll get you registered for the event.”

    What do I wear? I googled “CompanyName holiday party” and found ONE Instagram photo of people looking incredibly dressed up (guys in ties, ladies with feather boas) — one step below black tie. My guy’s an engineer, and he
    works with mostly male engineers who wear shorts and snarky t-shirts every day. He heard something about a
    “spouses of Companyname” email list, which he submitted me for, but neither of us have heard anything since that.

    This will be my first time meeting any of his coworkers, as well as the founder of the company, who I consider a
    personal hero. I want to look like I fit in but not like I’m trying too hard.

    So. I have a knee-length black dress, I have a long slinky navy blue bridesmaid’s dress that I look fantastic in
    but might be too formal, and I have a limited budget. Help.

    1. fposte*

      I vote for 1) having spouse hunt down a nice female co-worker and asking and 2) the short black dress with sparkly tights, killer shoes, and a big sparkly necklace if no information is forthcoming.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        Agreed. Ask about it. I went to hubby’s holiday part at local NFL stadium. It said formal. Well, most people weren’t formal at all. I wasn’t over dressed but the next year was jeans and a fancy top. There were people (women mostly) in prom-ish dresses. But everyone else was completely casual. i felt really overdressed the first year and much more comfy the second year. To be fair though, the first year I was about 6 weeks post partum and it was our first night away from baby, so I was stoked to be looking so good so soon after delivery.

        1. Sascha*

          That’s been my experience as well – most people tend to always dress about one step below what the invite says.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I was thinking along this line, too. If you find yourself too sparkly, just pull off a necklace/belt/scarf whatever and put it in your purse/husband’s pocket.

    2. Noelle*

      I would probably go with the knee-length dress, but that’s because I’ve been invited to a few black tie events and even there a lot of women wore short dresses. My go-to is to wear a dress that doesn’t look too formal, but accessorize with some nice jewelry and put more effort into my hair/make-up so it’s still more dressy.

      1. Artemesia*

        Unless it is a dance, most people wear ‘dinner dresses’ or short cocktail dresses to a black tie event. As a spouse in an unknown situation, I would not go with long and sparkly. If the other women are dressed that way, you will still look great in a short black dress with sparkly jewelry or even black slacks with a festive top. If the other women are dressed down then you will look a little silly in long and sparkly and like you are trying too hard. Myself I would probably go in dress slacks and a great top but the black dress sounds great too.

    3. Sascha*

      I don’t think you can ever go wrong with a black dress. I wouldn’t wear the navy blue dress, as it does sound too formal. But to me, black is always appropriate and always looks chic. I’d wear that with some sparkly jewelry and cool shoes. *Disclaimer: I wear all black most of the time, even in Texas summer.

    4. Anonsie*

      My engineer partner’s big holiday parties are quite formal, as you say. It’s the only time I’ve ever been to a formal event and people were mostly actually following that dress code.

      But they too don’t give out a dress code. I would guess from the location and time that it will be pretty dressed up, I’m guessing you can’t go wrong with a cocktail dress/lbd.

    5. schnapps*

      What does he wear to work? Is a a suit and tie, khakis and dress shirt, or jeans and t-shirt kind of place? If it’s a suit and tie, it’s probably a bit more formal.

      I’d pack the knee length black dress, some taupe pantyhose, and a bunch of different sweaters/wraps that you can wear with it to dress it up/down. (and maybe some hot red heels :))

  125. F.*

    I know I’m getting in on this late in the day for an open thread, but I would like to hear from others who work for a company that has been forced by legislation into mandatory sick pay but uses a Paid Time Off (sick, personal and vacation rolled into one pot) set up. How do you do the recordkeeping? By my understanding of the law that will go into effect in my city next year, sick leave accrues at a certain rate throughout the year, but 40 hours must be made available at the start of every year. What do you do if someone takes all of the time in January and then leaves? Full time employees accrue 104 hours of PTO throughout the year for use that year. What if someone has taken all of their PTO as vacation and then gets sick? This mandatory sick leave is also to cover for illness of anyone in the employee’s household. How do we possibly know whether this is being abused? Can anyone point me in the right direction for guidance? (company is too cheap and shortsighted to consult an attorney)

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      The way it works with my company is that your sick leave and vacation both come out of the same PTO bucket, so time off is just time off. It sucks because it doesn’t actually add any sick leave into your bank, since the original amount of combined PTO was enough. On the other hand, since there’s no distinction in how you use the time, if you don’t get sick, you can use the time as vacation and it won’t make a difference (On the other hand, if you use it all up and then get sick you have to take unpaid leave). But that’s just here.

    2. Tami Taylor*

      In most cases, if you take off more time than you’ve accrued and then leave the company, they take the remaining days out of your final paycheck. The opposite of paying out unused leave.

    3. asteramella*

      If your company is too cheap to hire an attorney, I am guessing they are too cheap to outsource their recordkeeping :) The answers to your questions depend on which municipality you are in. Typically it can help to read the actual legislation and regulations and any guidance your state/city has released regarding this. There may be regulations regarding the type of verification you can request from the employee regarding sick family members, experiencing domestic violence, etc. From there, don’t be afraid to call the regulatory agency and ask questions.

      1. non-profit manager*

        Agree with this. I am in California, which introduced mandatory paid sick leave this year. Our company already offers generous sick leave for all employees except seasonal. We were able to figure out the nuances and make necessary changes to our policy by 1) reading the legislation very carefully and 2) participating in free webinars and reading documents developed by the state agency.

        California’s law is similar in that employees can accrue leave, but must have a minimum of 24 hours available at the start of every year. We elected to not accrue, and instead give everyone the bank of time at the start of the year. This will ease record-keeping tremendously, though we realize someone might take all of their sick leave at the beginning of the year, then leave. It was a worth-while tradeoff for us.

        California’s law is also similar in that sick leave can be used for assist sick family members. Family is defined very broadly. California’s law has significant penalties for retaliation, so we are not going to be asking for any kind of verification, unless an absence is so long that it starts to run into the various allowable leaves. We are choosing to trust employees and hope there will not be abuse. If work performance suffers, we will address that and leave the sick time out of it, unless the employee brings it up.

  126. University Girl*

    My boss redistributed duties at the start of this academic year so everything lined up properly. We were very disorganized under Old Boss and she took all the easy jobs while coworker and I did the heavy lifting. I’ve managed well since this redistribution, but now I can tell that I am overwhelmed. I’m missing small details that I would’ve noticed before and putting things off because I have too much on my plate. The great news is that we’re hiring a temp who will take some work off me, but is it bad that I feel like I failed by needing the help?

    1. fposte*

      They tried a reconfiguration and it wasn’t quite right, so now they’re adjusting. It’s not a comment on you; it happens all the time with workflows. Hopefully you’ve been open with your manager about what is and isn’t getting done so she has a clear sense of what’s appropriate for your position.

      So no, it doesn’t mean you’re a failure; please let yourself off of that hook.

  127. Regina 2*

    I believe Alison and others have advised against this, but is there any way to negotiate flex-time and extra vacation time during performance reviews? I feel I am compensated well, and while I would always welcome more money, at this point, time is more valuable to me. I’ve posted before about how I get so irritated that I can’t leave at 5pm to take a dance class I want to attend or things like that, even though I’m salaried and should be trusted to manage my time well.

    Our department has gone through massive changes this year, and three people just gave notice (all cited work-life balance as a big issue). I am being asked to do more, and already had been asked to take on other items earlier in the year. There has been no change in title or compensation, but as advised here, I wasn’t going to say anything until performance review time anyway. I think I made a good case in my written review, but when it comes time to pay increases, I’d rather prefer having time, and the tacit approval of my manager to wield it.

    However. My culture is one where no one really takes a vacation (except me) and no one really does flex time. So the worry is, I can ask for it, and I think my manager might even be open to it, but in the end, I’ll be asked to work the same hours (if not more) without as much pay.

    I guess I’m asking — is there any way that getting it in writing might aid the situation, or am I just at a loss due to the culture, so I should just get as much money as I can and hope that the next job has better work-life balance?

  128. Anon for this*

    I’m a recent grad, although I’m older, trying to break into a professional career after many years in in the food service industry. I live in nyc and graduated from a top 50 national university but I’ve found it hard to do without professional experience. I’m too old to afford to do unpaid internships.

    I finally found a long term temp job doing something that is fine by pretty boring in an industry I’m not very excited about. It also doesn’t pay super well (<$15/hr. In NYC). It's not admin work though and it's something. And the people are very nice and I've been told I'm doing well.

    This week, a recruiter contacted me about a temp to perm role in an industry I'd be excited to learn about (somewhat related to my degree) and it pays more while temp and pays a lot more whine it goes to perm. It's admin but I'm willing to do that if I'm going to learn about something I'm more interested in. But a friend of a friend who used to work there seriously warned me off of it. Apparently it is a very difficult, uncomfortable work environment. He did leave abut five years ago and it's possible things have changed since then. Does anyone have any suggestions for questions I can ask to ascertain if it has? If thins have not changed, is it possible this is still a good move for me for awhile? Or should I stay in the boring but easy and nice job?

    1. Dawn*

      What does Glassdoor say about this company? Things can completely change in 5 years’ time- that’s long enough that the entire company could have left and been re-hired by now, who knows. Don’t put too much stock into what one person who had a bad experience five years ago says!

      1. OP*

        The company is small so there’s nothing on Glassdoor. And I got the idea that the problem was mostly with the Big Boss, whose name is on the door.

    2. Tami Taylor*

      Five years might be long enough for a place to change. Did your friend mention some specific policies or incidents (or people) that made the work environment difficult and uncomfortable? If so, you’ve got a list of things to look for. If not, it may have just been a bad fit for that friend. I second the recommendation for Glassdoor, and maybe see if InDeed has any reviews of the company.

      1. OP*

        Nothing on glassdoor, it’s a very small company. And he indicated that the main problem was with the Big Boss, whose name is on the door (but who I would not be working for directly).

        1. Jules the First*

          What were your friend’s issues with the job and are the two of you alike?

          My current employer has a Reputation and I talked to a lot of people (both staff and ex-staff) about what kind of person (in terms of personality) succeeds in this company. The tl;dr version is that if you’re good at what you do, don’t need much guidance or approval from above, can deal with egotistical insensitive assholes, and don’t get offended easily, working here is a doddle.

          So I’d ask things like ‘why do people leave this role’; ‘what personality traits do successful people here share’; even, if you’re feeling brave, ‘how do people here handle setbacks and change?’

          1. OP*

            Hmm, good suggestions for questions to ask, thanks. Like I said, this is a friend of a friend so I’ve never met him, just spoke to him on the phone. My friend mentioned he knew this person when I told him about the opportunity and put us in touch. So I don’t know him.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              If you’re getting this information second or third-hand, I’d interview and ask the questions Jules suggested. The difficulty might not have been with Big Boss overall, but dynamics with Big Boss and Friend-of-Friend.

              Of course, it could still suck, in which case the answers to these questions can tell you a lot. If there are no obvious red flags, it might be worth a shot.

    3. overeducated and underemployed*

      I think to some extent it depends about the specifics of the issues and whether they’d be deal-breakers for you, but it really sounds like it could be a great opportunity for you to make more money AND hopefully get further in your career change. Do you think you could deal with the uncomfortable work environment for, say, a year or two on your way to something else?

  129. Overeducated and underemployed*

    This has been a roller-coaster week on the job search! I started out really depressed and anxious about the idea that maybe the offer I turned down five months ago was my only chance for a career in my field.

    Then I got contacted about a couple full time jobs (out of my field but with good points) and realized I want the long term benefits of a career, but I am actually very resistant to the requirement of, you know, working full time to get one. I like not haVing my kid spend more time in day care than with his parents. No wonder I am confused! These things are incompatible!

    And now I’m just nervous about how much hiring timeliness vary. I’m waiting for news post interview about a part time term position starting in the new year; I just had a phone screen for a full time, well paid job doing the same thing that I applied for 2.5 months ago, but won’t even find out if i’ll have an interview for another week or two; and i’ve been playing phone tag trying to schedule an interview for a federal job I applied for back in August. Plus I have a campus visit for an academic job scheduled for late January, and I applied for a couple of jobs that i want more than the above just before Thanksgiving. I may get no offers at all, but i’d hate to have to say yes or no to the term job before pursuing the ones with more long term prospects. Crossing my fingers for good luck….

    1. overeducated and underemployed*

      Update: just scheduled an interview for the federal job next week! It would be a different direction than my ideal, and my commute would actually increase by a couple minutes (so I’d be away from my kid a solid 50 hours a week….), but after 2 years I could get permanent status, it is a higher grade level so I’d start off with a 20% raise, and perhaps in the long term I could use the career status to work back toward where my passion lies. So the potential upsides make it definitely worth checking out.

  130. TCO*

    Since I’m writing this from the airport, I’m curious–how much work do you get do during work travel? Do you work while you’re at the airport? On the plane or train?

    My job was recently changed from exempt to non-exempt, so that complicates the idea of “work time” when I travel. Sitting at the airport is paid work time–so should I be actively working? If I catch up on my work later in the evening instead, it’s extra hours (potentially overtime/comp time since it’s easy to go over my hours when traveling for events).

    1. Sascha*

      I’m exempt, so the overtime thing doesn’t factor in for me, but I do not work while in transit, though I might do some work at the hotel depending on how tired I am and how busy the day was. All of my business travel so far has been conferences, which are typically jam-packed days where I’m busy for about 10-12 hours, so at the end of the day, I ain’t doing anything except lounging in my hotel room with some french fries. However unless there is some mega emergency for something only I can fix (very rare), then I am not expected to work when I travel. I will answer some emails, but that’s the extent of it.

    2. AVP*

      I might answer some emails or organize files, but I try not to do anything too involved because it’s easy to get distracted and make a mistake. My boss sometimes works on project budgets, but he goes over them at a calm moment before sending!

      If there’s wifi on the plane I’ll stay connected and periodically refresh emails but that’s it. Once I filed my taxes from first class, which felt pretty baller. I’m exempt, though, so if I have work to do late at night on travel days that’s on me.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I find that airport wi-fi is not that great, so doing remote work over VPN would suck. Plus, with all the distractions, I can barely concentrate on Facebook even, let alone get any work done. And I’ve never had the luxury of doing anything in business or first–I once wrote a blog post in economy and tried writing on the way back from London last autumn, but the cramped conditions made both extremely difficult.

      If they’re paying you to travel and they don’t expect you to clock out/log it as non-billable time, I’d check your email and maybe do something simple that doesn’t require sustained effort.

    4. Graciosa*

      I regard real travel time as a gift – meaning I am not going to be working in the airport or on a plane because I am reading – or playing silly games on my computer – or doing a puzzle – or napping. This is my compensation for leaving home.

      I do check my phone from time to time while on the ground, and might respond to a few emails on it to keep things moving, but I am really not interested in pulling out the computer (which has limited batter life) and trying to work squashed into a tiny seat in a crowded location.

      Oddly enough, the work always seems to still be there later, and nothing disastrous has happened because I waited to respond when I can do so in comfort.

      1. Graciosa*

        *Battery” life – although probably also limited batter life. I am now picturing someone swinging my laptop at an incoming fastball. :-)

  131. Newly Entering the Workforce*

    I recently graduated from college and am preparing for my first full-time job search. I held three part-time positions at my university plus worked remotely as an independent contractor for the last three years. I’d like to reach out to my bosses at uni plus those I had direct contact with as a contractor. For a number of reasons, I haven’t had to ask for work references since high school. What’s the best way to go about it? How to explain that I’m not really looking for a position in my field (it values graduate-level education and so finding a job in my area would be near impossible) and so the jobs will be a wide range? How to ask for the best contact information?

    1. fposte*

      This is a standard thing, so not to worry. “Hi, Dr. Evil, NEtW here. I’m moving into the full-time workforce and wanted to know if you’d be willing to serve as a reference. I’ve attached my resume; in this job market, I think it’s good to stay flexible so I’m currently looking at a variety of possibilities. Thank you for your assistance.” And then when they say yes, thank them (which I’m sure you know), tell them you’ll let them know when they get something, and ask them if they’d like you to check back after a few months if the hunt continues.

  132. schnapps*

    They upgraded our ERDMS the other week. The only reason they did was because the vendor refused to support the version we were running. So in their wisdom they did FIVE upgrades at once. There are almost 2 billion documents (think medium sized municipal government), so the indexer took a week to run. In the meantime we had to manually search for documents (the flying spaghetti monster help you if you didn’t know which container they were in). Now we can search for documents, but it takes its time with the result that it now takes at least 5 minutes to open a file. We have files go missing mid-save.

    1. schnapps*

      Oh and now they’re saying they won’t do anything about the performance issues until they get more help tickets in because they aren’t convinced its a systemwide issue.

      The IT guy’s name who kind of heads up the ERDMS is Surinder. Our department basically administers the system but he does the back end stuff. Our main contact to him has started saying “Surinder all hope, all ye who wish to use the erdms”.

      2. Graciosa*

        Also giggling!

        But I would do everything possible to get as many tickets into the system as I could, and encourage others to do the same.

        I really do mean as many as possible. Not, one ticket per day complaining of issues, but more like one ticket per document search attempted.

        Yes, this will slow business to a crawl (actually it sounds like that has already happened – maybe a glacier?), but sometimes that needs to happen in order to get the right attention to fix it. They did say they needed more help tickets, didn’t they?

        Strictly following [stupid] orders of [inept] leadership can be the most effective rebellion.

        1. Observer*

          And, get as many people as possible to submit tickets. If one or two people submit 100 tickets each, they’ll say it’s your computer. But if 20 people submit 5 tickets each, that’s fewer tickets but harder to explain away as your computer.

  133. UnUsual Name*

    I am part of a remote team. There have been teething problems in getting us to gel but they seem to be sorted.

    However, my team is also part of a bigger team, consisting of four teams (so ours and three others). The guy who manages the four teams has instigated monthly meetings at the main office.

    These meetings have little to no value to me. I’ve asked my line manager if I need to travel, as our travel budget is squeaking, but he’s got the message that I need to be there.

    This is frustrating, but my line manager has said he’ll ok me dialling in once in a while. So how can I make the most of this?

    There’s not really anything else I can do while I am there :-/ wouldn’t mind so much if there was.

    1. Sadsack*

      What is “once in a while”? I think I’d dial in until someone tells me that I need to attend in person.

      1. UnUsual Name*

        Who knows?! The problem is that the ‘you need to travel down’ message has come from the senior manager in charge of everyone. I have Good Reasons to dial into the next one, but without inventing personal commitments, I think I’ll have to suck it up and travel after that.

        I suspect if I average attending three of every four meetings, I’ll get away with it.

  134. Takver*

    Are there any modestly published fiction or literary writers out there who would be willing to share their favorite websites that advertise calls for submissions or other gigs?

  135. Do I tell my boss I'm plotting to get out of here?*

    I work as an office manager in a department office at a university. One major reason I took this job is the option to take classes at a huge discount. Next semester I’m starting coursework toward a second degree, one that will allow me to make a big career move in (if everything works out according to plan) three years. My degree program requires I take at least two classes in the department where I work, including one offered next semester. I feel like I should mention to the chair that I’m registered for a class in the department next semester, rather than just cruise into class one day. But I feel awkward about just how to do this.

    A little background: I’m kind of overqualified for my current role but am very good at it. She’s expressed mild surprise that I’m interested in the role I’m currently in because of said overqualification, so I suspect she’ll be quite supportive. But “hey, boss, I’m planning on getting out of here” just seems such a premature conversation so far out. Input?

    1. fposte*

      I think what you’re doing is pretty standard; academically interested university staffers often educate themselves out of the position, and we generally are pretty happy for them. As long as it doesn’t make a difference to your in-office schedule, I don’t think you need to give your chair an official heads-up, but I also don’t think you need to hide it. That gray area in between depends on her personality and how weird you feel about her not knowing–it would be fine to casually drop the fact that you’re excited about getting a chance to take a course with Dr. Evil this semester.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      I’m confused – by “getting out of here”, do you mean in three years (the big career move you mentioned)? There is absolutely no reason to mention that. Honestly, I think your boss would probably find it a bit odd if you told her you are planning to move on in a few years and she is probably very accustomed to seeing overqualified employees who work there for the tuition discount who then leave after getting a degree. It’s good to mention the classes you’ll be taking, but there’s really no need to discuss your future plans unless you want advice from her or if you have a friendly rapport.

  136. TinyPjM*

    Hope I’m not too late! WHEN exactly should you try and negotiate an offer? During the call? Or through an email/call after you have received the offer paperwork? I am expecting (hopefully!) an offer next week, and have never actually negotiated before. I definitely want to try, but am not entirely sure when to go about it!

    1. fposte*

      I would do it through the conversation; in a lot of cases there won’t even be official offer paperwork.

    2. A*

      What I’ve done in the past is thank them for the offer, tell them I’m excited for the opportunity, and could I please have a couple of days to think about it? Then, when we’re back in touch a couple days later, I bring it up. Good luck!

      1. A*

        I should add that I do actually use this time to consider the offer. I don’t just say that I want time to think just for funsies.

      3. Graciosa*

        Small tweak – the recipient of the offer should reach out to the company with their counter or request or whatever as soon as they have it. If the company has to keep chasing you, it can seem like you’re not that interested, or stalling while you negotiate a counter with your current employer.

        If you call back and say you’re really excited about the opportunity, but you were hoping for something more in line with X, you make your point while keeping the positive momentum going.

    3. Clever Name*

      When I negotiated, I did it during the call. I had done my homework and knew exactly what I wanted, so I asked for a little more and got exactly the rate I wanted. :)

  137. super anon*

    i’m down/anxious this week about mistakes. i feel like i’m making a lot of little mistakes in terms of who to cc and when, when to reply all, etc. i think the actual work i produce is great, but often i have to rely on another coworker who never gives me information i need and then i look bad. it doesn’t help that i never hear from my bosses so i have no idea if i’m doing a good job or not. i have no goals, etc, or any projects directly assigned from them. everything i’m currently doing are things i’ve created myself, or are collabing with other units on. plus, i’ve been trying to pull together an incredibly important meeting and i’m being ignored by people on all sides wrt to scheduling (i’ve sent 9 emails now over 2 months, and several phone calls). one of the parties has been replying to other emails i’m involved with, but not the ones i’ve sent to them directly, nor are they answering my phone calls, and it’s super frustrating. :(

    oh – and the rest of my team moves to our main site next week, and considering that team is super dysfunctional & toxic i’m convinced everything is going to slowly implode in on itself, like a black hole eating everything in sight. i’m pretending to be excited/happy about the move so i don’t look like i’m not a team player, but i’m actually incredibly anxious.

    i’m super demoralized and stressed these days. christmas vacay can’t come soon enough.

    1. Bowserkitty*

      Hang in there!!! I used to go through that too at Old Job. Has it always been like this for you?

      1. super anon*

        it has been since i started 6 months ago, yeah. i can’t see it ever changing unless i move on from this role.

        1. schnapps*

          Do the people you’re trying to set a meeting with/for have assistants/secretaries? It’s usually a better bet to go through them rather than the actual person. The admin will find time for the meeting.

          Do you use Outlook? You can check people’s availability by starting a meeting invitation and looking at the “scheduling” tab. Do that and send a meeting request.

          If not, send an email to everyone saying, “I need to arrange a meeting between January 32nd and the first of never. Please let me know by 3 minutes past 11 on Festivus what day and time works for you.” and provide a list of days/times.

          If by Festivus people haven’t answered, pick a date and time from the list you sent and set a meeting.

          I guarantee you, in either case, people will talk to you.

          Also, talk to your manager and ask for a performance review/update by Ides of March (or whatever date you pick). Tell him/her you’re feeling like you need some guidance to further your career and would like to talk about how this could be done.

          And enjoy your holidays :)

          1. super anon*

            i’ve done all of those steps you suggest, and still nothing. i’ve even had the admins/personal assistants ignore me! even picking a date & time and setting it for the meeting hasn’t helped. thank you though, it would be helpful advice in any other situation. :)

  138. A Teacher*

    I wrote a test this week for my Health Careers Class and got to use a “chocolate teapot” company. We’re talking about workplace bullying (and what it really is and isn’t) and Chocolate Teapots, Inc. was a good name for the company.

    We also covered Pygmalion Effect–it was very cool for high school seniors to actually comprehend it.

    Have a great weekend everyone!

    1. Sourire*

      I did a research paper for a sociology of education class on Pygmalion in the Classroom (Rosenthal and Jacobson)/Self-fulfilling prophecies in education. Such an interesting topic!

  139. Jules the First*

    A colleague called me today to let me know that a project we’ve been waiting weeks for had just landed in his inbox. And he was sooooooo excited that he just.had.to.share.NOW.

    Except that he was at the airport, in line for security.

    So he made me promise to stay on the line while they put his phone through the baggage x-ray.

    All I can think is ‘Awwwwwwww…’!

    1. MaryMary*

      A couple years ago, we had an all hands on deck (overly) dramatic department-wide meeting. Those of us who were unable to physically be in the office had to call in. I was in Chicago for a conference, so I called in from the hotel. The meeting went on and on, so I stayed on my phone on the shuttle to O’Hare. And for a while pre-security. And in line to security. I felt like the biggest jackass ever as I asked if I could stay on my phone through security, and they told me I didn’t have to hang up, but I had to put my phone through the X ray. I just crossed my fingers and hoped that no one asked me anything while my phone was being scanned.

      That was the longest call ever. I stayed on the phone all the way to the United terminal (through the neon walkway), all the way to my gate, and until I finally told them I had to drop off to board the plane.

  140. Moving on up*

    I’d really appreciate any advice you guys can offer! I will likely be getting a promotion soon. I work in academic publishing right now as a Marketing Assistant and the promotion would be to Marketing Associate. My question is how long do you have to stay at a company following a promotion? I know this seems like an odd question, but this position/company is not a place I see myself long term. First off, I grew up in this city and don’t want to stick around. Also, when it comes down to it, my company is cheap. Salaries are below market standard, and there’s high turnover despite everyone here being really nice. I had actually been job searching with the intention of moving to a new city before this promotion came up but know it would stupid to turn down to promotion despite the low pay and less than ideal location, since I would learn so much and don’t have another job lined up. Would it be rude to continue job searching? If so, when would it be okay to start again? Please help!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I wouldn’t worry about continuing your job search. To me, it sounds like a normal career progression type of promotion that all the marketing assistants would get if they stay there long enough. If it was something where you were moving from associate to manager, five candidates were vying for the job, and you were selected, then I’d say your obligated to stay there for “X” time (you wouldn’t have been obligated to throw your name in the hat for that type of promotion, but once you do, I think you need to stay).

      1. Moving on up*

        Thanks AnotherAlison! You got it completely right. Here people tend to move up based on how long they’ve been at the company. Two associate positions just opened up, so I and another assistant that has been here the longest will likely get it. I haven’t formally been offered the associate position yet (but I’ll hear back soon) and am actually interviewing with another company for a similar position that would be an almost 50% raise to my current meager salary vs the 10% raise I would get for the promotion (They don’t really let you negotiate here). I’m definitely hear back about the promotion way before the other company gets through the entire hiring process, so I’ll accept the promotion if it’s offered and hope they’re understanding if I end up leaving soon after for another position. It’s not like their oblivious to the fact that their pay sucks.

  141. JM*

    I just tried to resign and let my boss talk me into considering a counter offer. I’m such a coward. I’ve also been in this dysfunctional small business atmosphere for so long that I’m questioning my abilities and so nervous about leaving. But I’m not going to accept any counter offer. I’m more than ready to leave. I signed and accepted an offer at another firm. I’m just a pathological people-pleaser and not looking forward to 4 weeks of emotional outbursts regarding my departure. I have to tell him on Monday morning that I’m really quitting. How can this be so hard???

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I hope it goes well for you, remember you told your boss you would consider a counter offer and you did you don’t owe them anything. Just have an idea in you mind of what you’ll say to them if they start to argue back

      “It’s to good an opportunity to pass up”
      “I’ve thought this over and I’m committed to moving on”

      If they react really badly leave the conversation and above all remeber you don’t need their permission to quite they get no say in it at all

    2. CC*

      Ouch, sympathies. Hang in there; you have every right to leave, and if your boss makes your last 4 weeks hell (you gave 4 weeks notice! That’s very generous) you can use one of Alison’s scripts about leaving earlier because clearly it isn’t working out.

    3. Graciosa*

      Every time he does something that upsets you – whether it’s attempting to use your nature against you or unprofessional outbursts – remember the choice in front of you.

      You can cave and put up with this for the rest of your working life. I hope you see that this is not a healthy option.

      Alternatively, you can hold firm to your decision and get out of there (whether in four weeks or sooner if necessary).

      Good luck.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Change how you define yourself and change your life. You are not a coward, you are a human being. You don’t have to be a pathological people pleaser, you can be you and people will like you.

      It will be less hard if you think about what you want and how you want your life to play out. This place has rattled you badly. Life does not have to be like that. Positive people and places build us up, cause us to grow and develop. You already know this on some level that is why you are leaving. You have a plan, it’s a good one. Keep reminding yourself, “I have a good plan”.

      You can do this. You made it this far, you will make it through this , too.

  142. Lily*

    I am currently employed as a recruiter for a healthcare technology company. My job encourages recruiters to give feedback to applicants if they ask. After sending a rejection email, a candidate asked for feedback for the first time. This candidate was aggressive during the interview and went on numerous tangents to highlight skills rather than answering the question. Thanks to one of our sponsored employees, we also found out that she fudged her equivalent GPA as an international student. She is too aggressive and now dishonest to be a good fit for us. I do not like giving feedback after a former employee got threatened with a lawsuit after another recruiter’s feedback in my previous job. What should I do? Telling the applicant that we don’t give feedback would be a lie and going radio silent wouldn’t be great either. It seems like the only way is to give feedback. I guess I’m asking for help with professionally and diplomatically conveying the feedback stated above, minus the GPA.

    2. fposte*

      I’d think the GPA would be the simplest thing to focus on, but maybe you don’t want to blow the other employee’s cover?

      How about something like “We prioritize clear communication, so we would encourage you to work on delivering clear, direct answers to questions”? That way you’re saying “Here’s what you could work on” rather than “Here’s what you sucked at,” and it avoids the touchier topic of aggression.

    3. Graciosa*

      First, you do need to give the feedback. You’re working for an organization that supports that (which is great) and you don’t get to decide that you’re personally too afraid to do your job because of a nebulous fear of lawsuits. The student didn’t ask you to send written feedback to her lawyer, so just let that one go. If you need reassurance, you can seek it out from your boss or your employer’s legal counsel.

      But as a professional recruiter, you should already know the rules on this one. Don’t tell a candidate she was not selected for a reason that would get the employer sued (race, other protected class – you should know these). Conduct yourself like a professional (don’t swear at the candidate for asking – you weren’t going to do that, were you?) and you’ll be fine.

      Here, you have very specific, useful feedback to provide.

      “Candidate, Employer values clear, direct, and honest communication. The team felt that there were instances where you used the question to highlight skills rather than answering it directly. For example, when asked about X, you responded at length with a description of your skills in A and B. That wasn’t what the team was looking for.”

      I’m actually not so sure about the GPA issue. On the one hand, you obviously felt this was dishonest, but on the other hand you described it as having “fudged” the GPA which sounds like she rounded 3.67 up to 3.7. The latter wouldn’t bother me, but I’ll assume this was a bigger issue than that and give you a response assuming a lack of integrity from the candidate.

      “In addition, Candidate, I wanted to let you know that when we validated your GPA equivalency, there was a discrepancy between the figure you submitted and the one we were able to confirm. If this was the result of a misunderstanding on your part about how to translate your international GPA to an equivalent one or perhaps a calculation error, I wanted to highlight that for you so that you could get some help correcting that. Many companies – Employer among them – regard integrity as a fundamental requirement for any position in the organization, and would instantly disqualify any candidate who lied as part of the application process. I wanted to highlight this for you so that you have an opportunity to correct any errors rather than finding yourself disqualified because of a simple mistake.”

      You’ll notice this response does not accuse the candidate of lying and offers a way for the candidate to save face – while still making it perfectly clear that this kind of dishonesty is not going to be productive. Also, leading with the communication issues makes it clear that challenging the “error” in the GPA is not going to change the Employer’s decision. There were multiple reasons why this candidate was not successful.

      When you do offer feedback, remember that it’s not a debate. This is what you can offer the candidate to improve their chances in the future for other positions, but this one is not available to them.

      Best wishes –

      1. Not So NewReader*

        GPA discrepancy. Yep, you can say it just this way. I had a problem with my ranking in high school. My guidance counselor told me I was in x% (an okay place). Imagine my surprise when the woman at my fourth college (long story) called me on it. How come no one else said anything???? She found that I was actually at y% (not as okay) standing. She used wording similar to what you see here. I simply shrugged and said I have no idea why my guidance counselor told me x % when it was really y%. I also pointed out that the at that time I was told we were a class of 500 plus, her notes said that the class was just over 350. I did not understand that either. I told her just to use the numbers she had. I fully expect if I go to a college again, I will find my class ranking has changed yet again. I can only go with what people tell me.

    4. Artemesia*

      It is a big mistake to be very specific here especially when the issue was aggressiveness. I would give bland ‘we found candidates who were a better fit.’ If you want to give any specific feedback, you might say something like ‘during the interview you tended to ramble away from the questions quite a bit, so you might want in future interviews to listen more carefully and be more responsible to the questions being asked.’ I would not touch ‘aggressive’ or ‘fudged GPA’ with a stick. Focus more on ‘other people better fit’ rather than being very specific to the candidate. As in the real reason you didn’t advance was less about you and more about other people who were more qualified, but this is some advice about a minor thing that might improve your interviewing. Don’t set yourself up for misery.

  143. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Today I seriously wanted to yell at someone, “You’re not my only client!!!!!” but I didn’t. Yay me.

    I’m supposed to have two days off next week. We have a “use it or lose it” policy. However, it’s looking like those two days won’t be feasible, so I’m opting to do two half days and work from home. My boss tells me to do whatever I want, he has me listed as off, but it’s up to me. I freaking HATE being in this position.

    However, I’m in this position partly because we’re shutting down after the 18th. Sounds great, right? No! Not great! We always shut down between Christmas and New Year’s, and it’s my first year at this job, so I (with my boss’s input) scheduled some deliverables for the 21st with the aim of having everything wrapped up by the 23rd. Now I’m told to work as hard as I can to move those dates up. I am wrapping up four projects and launching two more and it’s just way too much right now.

    So, for the first time ever, I understand how vacation gets cancelled or revoked. Gah.

    1. MaryMary*

      For a while at OldJob, we weren’t supposed to let on to our clients that we worked on multiple accounts. So they thought they really WERE our only client. It sucked.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I have a feeling that’s what this guy thinks– after all, I’m doing three projects for him (one of which was supposed to be FINISHED, but he keeps asking for more stuff that is so far outside the scope of our original proposal that I… ugh). And even though it’s not explicitly stated, I feel it’s kind of… icky to mention other clients, even in very broad contexts. I have another client for whom I’m doing two projects (soon to be three) and I think she feels like same way. I also think Client #1 thinks I have a huge team of people, but alas, no. ‘Tis only me. Sigh.

        1. MaryMary*

          Once the cat was out of the bag, we started getting a lot more questions on “well, what are your other clients doing?” Clients knew our firm had lots of accounts, of course, but once they figured out I was just as in the details of other companies, they loved to try to create safety in numbers when they made decisions. I never named names (except for the time I forgot to update the client name in an email I was sending to multiple clients. Oops.). Several contacts also got more accomodating about scheduling and timelines. Don’t be gauche about it, but I don’t think letting it slip that you are in high demand is a bad thing.

  144. CC*

    Aaah, always late to the open thread. Something about work schedules maybe. Following these discussions is hard for me.

    Today I thought of a thing that would be good to put on my resume, and I’d like some advice on how to phrase it. Specifically, a common pattern for me seems to be that people are doubtful at hiring time, then give me absurdly good reviews once they see my work. (Which tells me my application materials aren’t good enough I guess.) When I’m between jobs, I take whatever contract work I can get, which sometimes is engineering design work, and sometimes is technical writing. (I’m a chemical engineer.) All but one of those contracts is for somebody I worked with at a previous job, who came to me and asked if I had time to do the thing – again, pointing out that once people know my work, I’m great.

    What would be a resume-appropriate way to say, “once you see my work, you’ll think I’m amazing!” Without being obnoxious or sales-y.

    Because that’s how it keeps working out for me.

    1. JM*

      Is there a way to package some things into a portfolio? I’m in a similar situation where I do some technical design work and some technical writing. I have a three part portfolio–one part for my design/planning work, another part for my writing, and another part for some other types of things I’ve done related to promotion and marketing my firm. Even if the job doesn’t really want all three parts, I usually just leave them all in (just rearrange based on whatever is most important). It helps to showcase my work with examples.

      Also, in some cases, I have work where other consultants or team members completed substantial portions of the content but I put the whole thing together. So there are notes like ‘content provided by others’ or ‘watercolor project rendering completed by subconsultant’ or ‘stormwater calculations provided by engineering team.’

      Especially on the design portions, I always have a paragraph or two explaining my role and my process.

      Portfolios are pretty standard for my industry so the mere existence of a portfolio does not wow people in my case but I think it has landed me some interviews.

      1. CC*

        That’s an interesting thought. Unfortunately, because the designs I’ve worked on are often confidential and are also worked on by multiple people, I’m not sure how I would pull that off. Even the tech writing I’ve done is usually confidential!

        1. Mephyle*

          Is it possible for you to work up a hypothetical design or piece of writing – a case study as it were – similar to some things you’ve done in a job, but fictional?

  145. Computer Guy Eli*

    So every year we have a big ‘tear it down and put it back together’ thing at the site I work at. Usually it lasts 2 months, and we hire on 4 additional members onto the security team for those months to work every day of the month in order to keep all the new hires in check. (We double our staff during this in temporary employees) Half of our current team flaked to cover those openings, so when I asked if I could do it as well, I got told no.

    But my schedule was changed so from March 1st until July 30th I’m working every day of the month, twelve hour shifts.

    That comes out to about 30,000 dollars (counting for overtime and regular pay) I will be making in those 4 months. I have no clue how to respond without throwing myself at my bosses feet in thanks

    1. super anon*

      wait, are you working 12 hour shifts for 4 months in a row without a single day off? that’s insane, you’ll get so burnt out! i did this as a student working 2 jobs – i was pulling 80-90 hours a week and did 2 months without a single day off. by the time i finished and school started again i was exhausted and totally drained. i can’t imagine 12 hour days for 4 months straight. D:

      1. The IT Manager*

        Yeah, this post went in a direction I never expected. I hope you get a few breaks in there Eli because that’s a recipe for burnout; although, it sounds like you’ll be well-rewarded for it.

        1. Computer Guy Eli*

          Well the thing is, immediately after that, I’ll be going to college! The next time I’ll have to join the workforce will be when I get my CS degree to program!

          1. super anon*

            I don’t want to rain on your parade – but you really, really shouldn’t go directly to uni after working 12 hour shifts 121 days straight without a day off.

            i worked in student advising and that’s a really good recipe for failure during your first year, especially if you’ve never been to PSE before. at my institution the general rule of thumb was your first term in undergrad to expect a 30% drop in GPA from what you were previously used to getting in HS. even people who transferred from other post-secondary institutions experienced this GPA drop in their first semester, and that was students who were smart and motivated, and weren’t coming into school burned out from working. there’s a lot of changes going into it pse that can make it more challenging than you anticipate, and trying to tackle a brand new experience while being super burned out from working yourself to death is a very bad idea.

            if you can i highly suggest trying to take at least a week off before diving headlong into uni, especially since you’re heading into what is most likely going to be a very demanding program.

            (i currently work on student recruitment and retention in demanding programs, so i know a lot about the subject)

    2. CMT*

      I’m sorry to rain on your parade, but I really don’t think this is going to work out well for you. Your body and mind are not going to react nicely to this.

    3. asteramella*

      That kind of schedule is physically possible but it is very, very uncomfortable. I managed to do it for three months with fewer than 5 days off once. Best of luck to you.

  146. Witty Nickname*

    Just a small vent, because there’s nothing else I can do about it right now.

    My boss, whom I have worked for off and on for the past 8 or so years, and whom I love working for (the only reason I took my current job is because it would let me work for her again. To my surprise, I discovered that it wasn’t actually as boring as I expected, that I’m quite good at it, and that it really is a natural fit for my personality and talents, so yay!) let our team know this week that her boss is moving over to another org within our company…and she’s going with him. (On a personal note, I’m sad I won’t be working for her anymore, but I’m also really happy because she’s going to head up a team we work with regularly and have had some issues with for years, so I know things will be much better there).

    All of the other teams that reported up to her boss (our VP) will be absorbed into two other departments in the org, but we don’t know yet what will happen with our team. I have very strong opinions about what should happen (opinions my boss happens to share, and shared with our CMO who is making these decisions), but who knows. I know I’ll still have a job (and there is another team within our org that I’ve been helping out while they have a vacancy – they told my boss the other day they want me full time; they are being reorganized in all this too, but if that position is still going to exist, and if I want it, it’s mine), but that’s about it.

    Anyway, one of the things my boss has been doing this year is pushing her boss to keep an eye out for opportunities for growth and leadership for me, and this week she let our CMO know that this is important. And our CMO actually said she wanted to talk to me about that personally. Which is good – potentially really really good for me.

    But she hadn’t reached out yet. And then yesterday, I got a call from my son’s school that he had a fever and I had to come pick him up. So of course, I ran into my CMO on the way out, and she asked me if I would be around that afternoon, and I had to say no. I’m working from home again today because he’s not allowed back at school until 24 hours after the fever is down (it was at 100, which is their cut off, for all of 5 minutes, but it was close to that this morning and he wasn’t feeling well, so I stuck by the rules). My husband generally would be able to work from home if I have something I need to be in the office for, but he’s out of town visiting a sick relative for a week.

    I emailed my CMO this morning to let her know I am available by phone if she wanted to talk today, but wouldn’t be back to the office until Monday. So I just wait. I’m not good at waiting. I like having a plan, and then moving forward with the plan. But all I can do is wait…and vent a little about how kids really should be more considerate about their timing in getting sick.

    (I realize I am very very lucky to have a job where I can just leave in the middle of the day, and tell my CMO why, without getting more than a “oh, I hope he feels better! We’ll talk later!” from her. And I’ve been through enough reorgs in this company to not be phased by another one. It’s just the really inconvenient timing from my kid, and the waiting, that is frustrating me).

    1. Doriana Gray*

      I hate waiting too so I sympathize with you. I’m going to tell you what everyone else keeps telling me (both in real life and on this thread): be patient. CMO will get back to you since it seems like she respects your manager’s opinion.

  147. Ops Analyst*

    Ok, hopefully this gets seen this late in the day. My husband has an interview on Monday and the guy wants to meet at McDonalds at breakfast time. I thought that was a bit bizarre, but ok. The question is, should he still wear a suit? I say yes, but he thought it seems weird and was thinking shirt and tie. I can sort of see his point but should he just wear a suit? To McDonalds?

    1. Bowserkitty*

      Maybe no blazer?? I’d do a nice dress shirt and tie along with the slacks.

      I feel like I’ve seen suited-up men at McDonald’s before but I can’t think of any concrete examples. Best of luck to your husband!

      1. SL #2*

        My local McDonalds is 3 blocks from a very social and active church. Sundays around 1pm is prime time for spotting men in suits! I’ve even seen the pastor hosting a coffee + Bible study at McDonalds before (when it was late on Sunday afternoon and not busy).

    2. Argh!*

      This interviewer has no time during the day & the interview will be on the way to work, so I’d vote for dressing as if for a regular interview.

    3. Witty Nickname*

      I’d still wear a suit. Lots of business people stop in to McDonald’s for coffee/breakfast/lunch during the day, so a suit is not that uncommon. He needs to dress the same as he would if the interview was going to be in the company’s offices.

    5. fposte*

      It’s the occasion, not the venue, that determines the dress. What would he wear if it weren’t at McDonald’s? Wear that.

    7. JMW*

      The McDonald’s near us has been re-done with a business sort of decor – grays and blues, drum pendant lights, no play area (but a separate video room for kids), better coffee. Maybe it’s one of those McD’s?

  148. So Very Anonymous*

    I am always so late to the game for these open threads, but wanted to thank NotSo New Reader for her advice on my question a couple of weeks ago about emotional labor and burnout. Lots of good things to think about and to work towards (and you’re so right about not necessarily being able to implement all the suggestions at once, so gradual and mindful work sounds best!) but I’ve attempted to set one significant limit today — we’ll see how that works out!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      A friend said to me “how do you know when a person is going to pull themselves up?” Well, you don’t always know. But if people are willing to carefully try well chosen things their chances of having successes is actually pretty good. Surprisingly, the chances of finding some successes are pretty high. From climbing up out of my own pits, I believe that the key is one’s willingness to try. Oddly, whether we do Change A or Change B well, does not matter as much as our willingness to try the changes. What happened to me was I tried Change A. I did a half baked job, but, hey, I was trying. Then in a while I added Change B. Again, I did a half-assed job of it, but I seemed to be getting benefit from the mediocre job I did with A, so what the heck, why not tweak B and see how it goes.

      Be kind to you and just keep going. It will get better.

  149. Doriana Gray*

    I am about to commit the cardinal sin of this blog: quitting my job without something else lined up. I’m over it. I’m just done.

    Monday HR emailed me asking if I could interview with the hiring manager/AVP of the internal division I applied for and some supervisors/managers, and I set up a time for Tuesday.

    Had a 30 minute interview Tuesday where AVP told me they’d already discussed it and decided to hire me so the “interview” was really just an opportunity for me to ask last minute questions. I was so excited, and signed the offer letter that afternoon. HR told me my current manager and the AVP will have to come to an agreed transition date. AVP already told me the start dates he was aiming for were either Dec. 21 or Jan. 4.

    AVP emailed my manager yesterday and told her they hired me and requested my current division to release me so I could start on the 4th because of the upcoming holidays. Well, my asshole manager sent him a response and cc’d her boss and her boss’s boss (AVP and SVP of our division respectively) stating that was not a realistic transition date because she is not going to be able to hire and train someone new by then. She told him mid to late January was the earliest she could see letting me go. First of all, this chick doesn’t train anyone anyway. Seriously – she dumps work on us and expects us to figure it out ourselves. So WTF training is she talking about?! Second, this division has known since September that I was leaving one way or the other – I posted for a different internal position back then and even told the AVP I was probably going to wind up leaving the company. The fact that they sat on their asses for months and didn’t bother putting together a contingency plan in place is not new division’s problem.

    I spoke to my former manager about this yesterday because I was livid. She told me to email new boss again expressing my excitement to start with his team and to also let him know that I was told by my manager that the 4th wasn’t workable, but I would work my butt off to be able to wrap things up enough so that I could start with his group on the 4th. Former boss said doing this would get new boss on my side and he’d be more likely to push back on her unreasonable demand if he was aware that I wanted to start on the 4th too. Former boss also said everyone in the corporate office where she works is pissed by what’s happening here because they sent me to work in my current division against their better judgment because a lot of promises were made, and I really wanted to go there (at first), and now my psychotic manager has pushed me to the point where I want to resign. Not to mention the fact that all of those promises? Yeah…they never came to fruition.

    I emailed new boss using the language my former manager gave me, and he told me not to worry, they’ll figure it out. Apparently my former boss was cc’d on some emails and she told me to sit tight – she can’t promise anything, but she thinks I’ll be fine.

    Still, I have yet to hear anything about a start date and I’m getting angrier and angrier because I have a feeling my evil witch boss is going to get her way once again, and I’m tired of this bullshit. I’m tired of people (e.g. her boss and boss’s boss) pussyfooting around her and kowtowing to her every fucking whim because they don’t want to deal with the fallout of one of her tantrums (she really is a child – she cried at her desk after responding to my new boss’s email yesterday). And the fact that my new boss is about to do the same thing is making me sick to my stomach.

    I need to go. I’m drafting my resignation letter this weekend and handing it in Monday.

    1. Sourire*

      Wait, I’m confused… so you have an internal transfer that you were excited about all lined up, but are going to quit anyway? I can totally see your frustration in general with how things have worked out for you in the past as well as with a potential hold up in your transfer, but it doesn’t sound like your manager is blocking your transfer, just delaying it by less than a month. Why not wait it out, but still look for something else in the mean time (in case crazy manager somehow does end up blocking the transfer or keeps getting the date moved back)?

      Go ahead and draft your letter, it will help you vent. But think long and hard over the weekend about whether or not you really want to submit it. To me this just doesn’t sound like something worth quitting over – there is an end (well transfer) in sight after all!

      1. Doriana Gray*

        I cannot work for this woman until the end of January. I just cannot. And she’s doing this out of spite because if she keeps me through the first month of the review period, she gets to complete my performance evaluation. Now how likely is it that that evaluation is going to be fair and truthful given everything that’s transpired? (And she’s lied on me in the past so I know she has no qualms about doing it again.)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Don’t do anything. The new manager has already told you that she’s handling it. If you quit on Monday, it’s quite possible you’ll lose the new job too, and you’ll look flighty and volatile.

          You’ve already won this — you’re getting out of there. Let them work it out and trust that it’ll happen, even if it takes slightly longer.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Hey, I am a HUGE fan of announcing “I am going to do (unreasonable, overreacting thing in response to someone behaving badly)” because it feels awesome to say (and believe). Then I eventually decide not to, but it sure feels good to sit with the first plan for a while. This has been really unnerving for my husband at times.

              1. nep*

                This makes so much sense.
                I’ve been cursing internally this week and saying to myself ‘I’m so over this — that’s it. I’m OUT’. Of course, no intention of doing it right now, with nothing lined up. But it sure feels damned good, as Alison says, to sit with that plan for a while.
                All the best, Doriana Gray. You sounded so excited about that transfer — I hope you’ll stick it out. It’s in your hand — you’ve got to just rise above the BS for a bit, it seems.

              2. Doriana Gray*

                LOL! Really, this sounds like me too. As my former manager said to me two weeks ago when I was also considering quitting (I hadn’t gotten this new job yet or had my external interview), “I’ve seen how you live – you can’t afford to be unemployed.” That pretty much took the wind out of my righteously indignant rant. She tells no lies.

                2. Observer*

                  Another thing to think about – if you quit now you current boss wins. You go to the new, awesome job, even at the end of January, she loses.

              3. Anoning it Up*

                yes! Mine was (in September) “I am definitely going to quit on November 1st even if don’t have anything else lined up. This place is awful.” Come November 1st, I didn’t quit, and I’m glad I didn’t because I ended up interviewing for and getting my job in November. I would have hated to have to explain why I was jobless during that interview process. But dang, September and October felt awesome while I was thinking in my head that I was just going to bail on Nov 1.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Hang tough, DG. You have to let the kids squabble among themselves and in a bit one will bubble to the surface with your answer.
              That is what this is you know.
              They all have issues with each other and you are convenient for their current squabble. Fortunately, you have allies that are sane. They will bring you to a safe place, all you have to do is let them do their thing.

              1. Doriana Gray*

                I’ve been rereading your advice to me from last week for strength, Not So New Reader. Between your kind words and my former manager’s support, I think I can get through this even though it’s going to be tough.

                And yeah – former boss is really quite awesome. She’s the best manager I’ve ever had. She has the perfect combination of technical skills and people skills. I use her as a guide as to how I’d like people to view me as well.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  And these people are the ones who have influenced me in my life. And, yeah, we get to pay it forward, because that is the whole point. Just stick with her do what she says to do.

                  I have had this test a few times in life. I have no clue what is going on and I must blindly trust a person. Fortunately I have had enough times where the person was worthy of that blind trust, that I have learned to calm down a little bit in these situations. When you are working with quality people, it is okay to worry a bit less and trust a bit more. If it helps, think about paying it forward some time in the future, where you will find a worthy person and you will be the one rescuing them.

  150. Kathlynn*

    So, the store I work at changed ownership. Which is causing problems, because they only pay once a month. They are using the excuse that you can ask for an advance at any time to get around the law (Canada BC, where the law says you must be paid at least twice a month. And that a pay period can’t last more then 16 days, and you must be paid within 7 days of the end of the pay period.). This is causing friction between workers (those of the school “the company does it, deal with it” “you’re going to wreck it for everyone” and “just be happy to have a job” and “this is actually a big thing” “bills; this is costing me money” and “it’s still against the law”). Particularity since my grandma and I both work and live together, (different shifts) and we are on opposite sides (which is relevant, since she has started conversations to yell at me for not backing down on my opinion. I haven’t actually done anything more then mention the law to coworkers who bring it up first)

  151. RC*

    Thoughts on personality tests as part of the interview process? I know Alison has some feelings about them, but I’m definitely not a fan as I just got taken out of the running for a job because I “failed” the Hogan assessment. How does one fail a personality test?

    1. katamia*

      I think there are certain personalities that tend to be better fits for certain types of jobs, and screening for that in some fashion is reasonable, especially for positions that have high turnover because they’re, say, extremely introverted (like doing data entry in a room by yourself for 8 hours every day, although even a lot of introverts would have issues with this). I actually just left a job partially because it was a bad fit for me personality-wise–a constant slog of one single task that would never end or change the entire time I was there, and while my coworkers seemed pretty happy with the eternal sameness, I was miserable–I’m happier in a more dynamic workplace where I have lots of different tasks and things change frequently. (I actually would have stuck it out for my year-long contract if it hadn’t been for health issues that the job aggravated, but it would have been a really miserable year.) So, yes, I do think that looking at candidates’ personalities in addition to their skills is something that can be valuable when hiring.

      However, a test may not be the best way to do that. I’m not familiar with the Hogan assessment, but a lot of the retail ones, especially Unicru/Kronos, are ridiculous. Some of the questions are hopelessly vague and could be interpreted in completely opposite ways, while others have such clear right answers that it’s obvious what you’re supposed to say. It sucks, and if they’re eliminating otherwise strong candidates based solely on the answers to a test, they’re missing out on good people.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Personality, or at least the ability to project a suitable personality, is definitely important – both for fit with the job tasks and for public-facing work. No one wants the huggy receptionist who places political talk radio too loud. That said, the Hogan assessment is so bunk it’s got to have been made by Hulk Hogan. There is no way a short test can come remotely close to screening for the things it claims it does.

      If there’s a job you otherwise want but need to pass the test hurdle, a quick google revealed that there seem to be a large number of places to find sample questions and guidance on what the test is looking for, so I imagine it would not be too difficult to get whatever result you wanted out of the test.

  152. nep*

    Just a bit of a vent here.
    Love what I do at the job, love the people with whom I work. Commute is a breeze and hours are flexible which is super important to me right now.
    But pay is abysmal. I work hard because it’s important to me to do quality work, but clearly that matters not at all to the higher-ups. This past week, conversations with a couple of them just drove the point home that they Do. Not. Give. A. Damn.
    (I reckon many people in a similar situation.)
    Bright side — Clarity. At least I know where I stand.
    I’ll focus on the positives of the work until it comes time to move on.

    1. fposte*

      Ooh, bad juxtaposition. I’ll work for peanuts if we’re all consecrated to the cause, but not if I’m identical in your eyes to the staffer who’s on Facebook all day.

      You still do it right because that’s who you are, but yeah, that’s a bummer.

      1. nep*

        Precisely. I’m almost always picking up the slack from often-careless co-workers. Because in the end — from the perspective of the public / customers — sloppiness reflects on us all.

  153. Anon for this*

    My boss may be out of town when I give notice. Is it acceptable to email her my resignation? I’m not able to wait until she returns. She has her work email and phone synched and she’s always on her phone. So in theory, there’s not going to be a delay in her receiving the notice.

    2. Kathlynn*

      I don’t know how much time there is between when you give notice and now, or if she is in town now, or already out of town. But, I’d concider giving notice earlier then planned, if possible. Especially if she is in town, so she can get the wheels moving faster, or not have to multi task as much when she’s out of town.
      If that’s not feesable, then I’d either text (“hey I need to talk to you, when you have a moment” type thing) or just straight up call her as CMT suggests. (the text, because I would worry about interrupting her while something important is happening, esp. if the trip is for business)

      1. Anon for this*

        The offer with the new employer has not been finalized. Hiring manager needs final approval for salary (I negotiated an increase from original salary that was offered). Hiring manager says that she’ll get back to me by next Tuesday or Wednesday.

        Current boss will be out a few days this week or maybe the whole week. I’m not sure which days she’ll be out (lack of communication is one of the reasons why I’m leaving among other reasons). I’m hesitant to give notice until I have a firm commitment from hiring manager. So I’ll take your advice, if she’s out of the office, I’ll send her a text to call me.

  154. A.J.*

    I somehow unbelievably ended up with 2 job offers today!!! Woohoo!
    Would I be crazy to accept a contract position over a full time permanent one? A bit of background info…
    – The contract is with a very high-profile tech company that I really want to work for. It is technically not contract-to-hire, but the recruiter who I am working with says that so far all 4 of the people he hired previously for the role have converted to full time– he can’t promise anything but its highly likely. (I have been burned before on promises of converting to perm from contract, so I know nothing is guaranteed). It seems like a really cool role with a lot of independence, working on a new team that that I really clicked with in the interview. I also really liked the hiring manager. Pay is a bit higher than I made before, but no benefits.
    – The permanent role is much less interesting– think data editor rather than analyst– at a pretty small, relatively unknown company. I wasn’t really impressed with the company at all, and I really didn’t like the hiring manager. I had a pretty bad impression of him after our phone interview but gave him the benefit of the doubt and decided to meet him in person, and well, he was even worse in person. I liked one of the team members, but didn’t really click with any of the others. However I was rather surprised by their offer. It was way higher than I was initially expecting with amazing benefits. Commute isn’t a factor for either position.

    1. nep*

      Congratulations on getting two offers. Bravo, you.
      (I, for one, don’t think you’d be crazy to take the contract position, given everything you’ve laid out here.)

    2. CMT*

      I’d so much rather do interesting work for a possibly temporary period of time than boring work forever!

    3. Doriana Gray*

      I’d take the contract position. You don’t like the person you’d be reporting to at the full time perm position. Trust me when I say that a miserable boss will make for a miserable work life.

    4. A.J.*

      Thank you for the advice everyone! Sounds like a pretty solid consensus on the contract position.
      I almost forgot to share something from the interview for the full time position with the bad manager. He gave me a piece of paper with a bunch of shapes on it (varying combos of color, geometric shape, patterns, etc.), and asked me which one I would remove. I managed to resist asking if the actual job involves looking at shapes like a 3rd grader. Instead I asked if this was a trick question or if there was even a real answer, and he just started laughing. It was definitely the strangest thing I’ve ever been asked in an interview. I already didn’t like him, but this really sealed the deal. The contract hiring manager just gave me some standard SQL/python questions. Which test do you think determines a better analyst? *sigh*

  155. Emily*

    My boyfriend had a job interview at a very small software company today, and he thinks that it went well! My fingers are crossed.

    1. nep*

      Sending good vibes. Keep us posted. (Did he follow any of Alison’s advice throughout the process?)

      1. Emily*

        Thanks! He’s not a regular AAM reader, but I did direct him to one of Alison’s cover letter posts when I was explaining why his writing could use some revision.

        I’ll post about it if he gets an offer (he’s been applying for months and was feeling discouraged about his hireability), but he doesn’t expect to hear anything until sometime after Christmas.

  156. Anoning it Up*

    I know I might be late for the party, but I wanted to say hi. I wrote a couple months ago about an awful conversation with my boss and how I was looking for a new job. Well, I’m happy to report that that I found a job at a new law firm! I’m so excited to leave my abuse, dysfunctional current job and get into a new one. I wish I could thank AAM for her great advice, but but what ended up really working well for me (lateral attorney) was working with a great recruiter. So, while I wrote a billion hopefully great cover letters, the thing that really got me into my new place was my recruiter (so I didn’t end up having a cover letter at all for the position I actually got). I did use Alison’s book though to prepare for my interviews!!! But I just wanted to update and say hi and let everyone know that I can be counted among the job searching successes, and soon I won’t be so miserable. YAY

  157. Trixie*

    Happy on two developments this week. Audition at second big box gym went well and I’ve confirmed one regular class starting in January with a second class coming.

    I had applied for job at local university in the spring, encouraged by friend who heads department. Interview didn’t go anywhere but my profile was still on file. Friend moved to different dept and when a short-term temp position came together in his dept, he gave me a call. December budget was looking really tight so more than anything, this will help cover the gap. Today was online questionnaire and drug test, both of which I was able to get done immediately. With luck I may have hours starting on Tuesday! Two good things here: temp job may become permanent in new year. If not, I’m already on file for other temp jobs. Second, I’m in better position to apply for real job on campus. And maybe get trained in software specific to universities/colleges.

    Already had haircut scheduled for today. Now I just need a work wardrobe to get me through 2-3 days. Seeing lots of good sales at Kohl’s, etc. Power shop!

  158. Anonadeer*

    I’m in my first real job, so I’m still feeling out what’s normal/reasonable. Thus, I wanted to ask here!

    I (and a coworker of mine hired the same time as me) recently received a raise. We were told this was because the base pay for our position had changed to that new amount. We’d both previously received a small merit raise, which was not added on to that new base. Is that normal to basically remove a merit raise when base pay is changed like that? (If it matters, this is entry level, hourly, non-exempt admin.) It seemed rather unfair to me, because it feels like the company is taking back something we earned through our hard work. But I know these things are often unfair.

    1. Nom d' Pixel*

      It is unfair, but I have been in that same position. If your old wage was position minimum +x, and the new position minimum is greater than that, they just give you the new position minimum instead of new minimum +x. I don’t know if there is anything you can do, but if you have a good relationship with your boss, you might want to ask about it.

    2. Colette*

      They’re not really taking it back – you’re actually making more, right?

      Let’s say you’re a teapot designer. The range for teapot designers is $10 – $100. You get hired at $10 and work really hard. Eventually you get a raise to $15. All is well.

      After a few years, you are ready to move on, so you apply for a job as a teapot analyst. Analysts make $20-$100. They hire you, and you now make $20. The $5 raise you got doesn’t get applied, because it was a one time thing – you earned it and you got it, but you don’t get it multiple times.

      Looking at it another way, if you get a 1% raise every year, after 20 years you’ll be making 20% more (more, actually, due to compounding), but the salary range will also have moved, so you won’t necessarily be making 20% more than the entry level starting salary.

      I hope this makes sense but fear it does not.

      1. Anonadeer*

        This does make sense, and is I think basically what the email my manager got in response said. (Though it was not explained nearly so clearly.) I think I just mostly found it more annoying because this is all very short term. I haven’t even worked at this job a year, and at my sixth month review, the base pay was raised and I got the merit raise then. They have, since then, raised the base pay again, and I received the increase outside of any review. So it’s really, I think, that the merit raise was from less than sixth months ago. That, plus the fact I know a coworker hired more recently than me is now making more because she basically got lucky with the timing of the base pay raise and her three month review.

        But I do get it, the way you explained it. (Though this is not a position change like your example, just the same position with a new base pay.) I think it wouldn’t have pinged me so oddly if they hadn’t raised the base pay for this position twice in the last year. (Raised twice because the company has had atrocious turnover due to low pay.) My manager pretty much said I’ll get a raise at my year review, which is coming up, so I guess I’ll just look forward to that!

        1. Colette*

          I think it’s more annoying when you’re close to entry level in the job but have been there long enough to get a raise – it feels like you’re not being recognized for what you’ve done, and people who get hired make as much as you do. It’s ok to be annoyed by that, but the most productive response is to make a case for why you deserve a raise. (And really, two raises in one year is awesome.)

  159. No Job Title*

    I’ve been at my current job for 2 years and don’t officially have a job title. My company is chaotically run to the point where it’s a wonder anything gets done. I’m working on my resume and don’t have a job title to list.

    When I was hired it was “you’re hired” and you start on this day. No letter in writing or anything that would’ve listed anything. My duties are preparing client’s financial statements, working on audits, preparing multi-state tax returns, and I’ve handled 5 IRS audits. I’ve asked my bosses for an official job title but they haven’t given me one. My total experience is 10 years from prior jobs and this company. So I created the title of “senior accountant” for myself and asked my boss if that was okay to use. He just shrugged it off and said “we don’t really get too hung up on job titles here”.

    I’d like something official to list on my resume and in future reference checks have an accurate job title listed. The company employs less than 30 people and we don’t have an official HR person to make inquiry of. How else should I handle it or just stick with senior accountant as the title I’m assigning myself?

    1. Colette*

      Skip the title altogether. You can’t make them do titles, and if you make one up and someone calls to confirm it, it will not end well.

      1. No Job Title*

        But what do I list on my resume? Mine is in chronological order as is standard but I think it’d look odd to not have a job title listed on it. Or on job online applications.

        1. Colette*

          IMO, your accomplishments are really where you should focus. If anyone asks, you can just explain that the company doesn’t use titles. I think it will look less odd than you expect.

  160. Nom d' Pixel*

    I am a little late to today’s party (busy day), but I am excited. Five weeks ago, I applied to a position in another department in my company. At that time, I told my boss, and I talked to the director of the other department. I hadn’t heard anything, so I assumed that it was a dead end. Well, yesterday, I got the official HR form for an interdepartmental interview. My boss has to write a recommendation on it, but it will come back to me before it gets sent to the other department, so I will see everything.

    I am very excited, and I need to buy a new interview suit.

  161. Sif*

    A couple days ago there was a question here about asking for time to think over a retail/food service job offer, and the general consensus was that you need to accept right away or the employer will just move on to other applicants. But if you don’t really get time to think about it, you’re more likely to find yourself in a situation that just isn’t tolerable long-term. It made me wonder: does that then also mean that the rule of thumb about staying with a company for at least a year doesn’t really apply to those types of jobs?

  162. Colette*

    I don’t currently get vacation or sick time (short term contract) so I have been working a lot of overtime hours so that I can take four days off later this month. I’m kind of sick of it. Honestly, I should just take the time unpaid, but my brain has decided this is a challenge I must meet.

    (And for perspective,”a lot of overtime” means I’m still home by 6:30. I have been spoiled by finishing at 4.)

    Oh well, 6 days to go.

    In other news, my contract is almost up but it will almost certainly be extended. Good news, since I hate job hunting and like my job.

  163. SL #2*

    Wow, am I late today. Is anyone still here?

    I’ll be out of the office for most of next week (business trip and then extending my stay for a couple days more for personal time) and there’s just so much to do before then. I use lists to make sure I haven’t missed anything… but I’m always a little worried that we forgot something…

    1. AnotherFed*

      Even if something slips, it’s probably not the end of the world. Focus on the big stuff, and leave the minion with the most problem-solving skills in charge when you’re gone and let them deal with any missed things!

  164. SweetTeapots*

    Whhhhhyyyyy do online applications require that you write out each and every detail from your resume (AND salary range), AND THEN require you to attach your resume?! AAggh!

    Wooh, had to get that out ;)

  165. schnapps*

    So we have a new guy in the office (where 18 of the 19 existing employees are women).

    In his temporary low-walled cube, they put some extenders to make higher walls for the previous occupant. They just kind of slide into the top of the cube walls. The result is there’s about an 8-inch gap between the wall and the wall extender. So about a week after he got there, I printed out a picture of Jack Nicholson’s “Heeeeeeeeeere’s Johnny!” face from “The Shining” and put it in that gap. He loved it.

    Today we were decorating for Christmas so I upgraded it after he left for the evening. What do you think?

    http://1drv.ms/1TJ3Jwx

  166. kevents*

    Long time reader, first time poster! Here’s an interesting situation that happened to me earlier today. I’ve never had something like this happen before, so would be interested in hearing other commenter’s thoughts on the best way to deal with this.

    I was in a second interview for a position with a small event planning start-up. During the interview, my interviewer (also the CEO and my potential boss) looked at my resume and exclaimed: Oh! You graduated in 2013?! You’re a baby. How cute!

    I was taken aback, but managed to compose myself and answer that while I have only been out of school for under 3 years, I have had a great deal of responsibility in that time, and gained a great deal of experience.

    Later in the interview, she made another comment, stating: Wow! You are so mature for your age. I’m so impressed.

    I am 24 years old, which I don’t think is that young, and I don’t think these things are appropriate things to say at all. These comments made me feel undermined as a professional, and like my experience was not being taken seriously. In fact, she spent a great deal of the interview explaining basic concepts of event planning and repeatedly asking if I understood, even after I talked about my experience managing very similar (and larger scale!) events in my past roles. I felt like she glanced at the graduation date on my resume, and assumed that I could not possibly have the experience I said I did.

    Is there a good way to deal with these sort of comments in an interview? I felt that my response to her first question was not enough, and in hindsight, I wish I had said something further to let her know that I was uncomfortable. Thoughts welcome!

    1. Audiophile*

      I think you handled it well.

      I recently had an interviewer ask me “what would you like to be when you grow up?” I laughed it off, and she made a comment that she doesn’t feel like a grown up but it definitely struck me as weird. I’m going to be 30 soon and you could likely figure that out based on my resume.

      Some people are just weird and think it’s appropriate to remark how young or old someone is.

      1. Betty (the other Betty)*

        I’m coming up on 50 and I ask people (even those older than me) what they want to be when they grow up. It’s just a way to ask “What do you want to do?” So I wouldn’t take offense at that particular line.

        After your comment, I’ll be more careful using it with younger people, though!

        1. Audiophile*

          I’m not trying to kill your style. I think it was just her tone, she didn’t laugh until after she asked. I think if you say it with a smile or in a light-hearted way, it’ll be clearer where it’s coming from. I did find it amusing, albeit a strange way to ask that question.

    2. AnotherFed*

      I think you handled it well. The interviewer was out of line on those comments about you being a baby/mature for your age. An interview is a tough situation to push back any more firmly in, especially if you think you might want the job.

      However, I wouldn’t take the overexplanation of the job personally – if she’s relatively new to hiring (or from a government background previously) or just not so great at it, she might have essentially one description/set of talking points about the job and not be able or willing to adjust it on the fly when one candidate has far more experience than others in the same hiring pool. That said, it also wouldn’t make me jump for joy at the thought of working for her.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’m 55. I still get this comment. Matter of fact, I got it just last week. It’s very off-putting.

      In my personal life, I just say “yeah…” and let my voice trail off.

      Not the question you asked, OP, but if I had to work with this woman closely, I’d reconsider my job application.

      I believe Alison would advise to just candidly ask if she has concerns/reservations she would like to discuss. Personally, I might consider saying, “That is the third time you mentioned my age. Is there something in my experience that causes you concern?” I’d point to my resume as I said this. All the while, I’d be saying to myself, “Done here.”

  167. Lizzy C.*

    Can someone advise me on if I have the right to negotiate the salary for a possible job offer when I previously stated during the screening interview that $X was acceptable.
    The thing is I’ve been offered a slightly higher salary at a job that I’m not too keen on, but the pay is more in my range.
    I would love the opportunity to work at the lower paying job but after being informed about all that the job entails during the interview process, the salary stated is way too low. How can I address this issue professionally?

    Also, is it common for internal recruiters to state a lower salary than what will actually be offered? I noticed the salaries on a particular site for the same role at the same company/state is higher than what I was initially told.

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like two things have changed since you gave said the salary has changed – you got another offer and you’ve learned more about the job. I’d focus on what you’ve learned about the job that makes you believe the salary is too low. It may not change what they’re willing to pay, though, but I think it’s legitimate to raise it.

  168. Menacia*

    This is more a vent than anything. A new hire joined our small support team last November, so he’s been with the company a little over a year. Now when I start with a new company, I go out of my way to be helpful, ask questions to learn what I am expected to do, and am enthusiastic about my job which, by the way, pays me well and has great benefits. Additionally, the company we work for has some pretty terrific people, with a few challenging, but not crazy-making, folks as well. Well, this coworker has been nothing but less than enthusiastic, and would come in daily complaining of a headache, and also *every day* would bemoan “Is it Friday yet?.” He never volunteers to do any assignments, and when he is asked a question, his response is “Did you read such and such, it’s all in there..” as if he does not want to even converse about work. We all have to answer the phone (we are a support desk, after all) and every single time he has to answer the phone, he sighs loudly, as if it’s a huge inconvenience to do it, and he’s less than welcoming when he answers the phone. When he hangs up, he makes some kind of derogatory remark about the caller. I try to ignore all of this, but it’s pretty difficult since we work in close proximity, we have cubicles, and the walls are high, but they aren’t sound-proof. My boss can’t hear any of this since she’s in an office a distance away. I just feel like we were sold a bill of goods, he must have put on quite a show during his interview (I was out on vacation and was not part of the process). What is ironic is the coworker who was part of the hiring process is VERY much like this new guy! It’s as if he found a kindred spirit and so now we have two whiny complainers in our midst. I’ve thought many times about leaving the company, but it’s really difficult since I am paid very well, have not only a 401K but also a pension (which I can get in full if I stay 20 years, been here 11 so far), and the majority of people I deal with are great. I’m pretty good at tuning things out, and am getting better at it, but some days, I just want to punch both of them in the face. ;) Thankfully, I do have two great women coworkers, who are not part of the support team but we are in the same department and we all sit near each other, who comiserate with me in really funny ways, which is always a good thing. Only 9 more years, only 9 more years…. ;)

      1. Menacia*

        Oh, trust me, I have, but all she did was to make us ALL account for our daily tasks by keeping a weekly log which is emailed to her on Friday. She did tell me that she asked new guy if he was happy here, and of course he said yes. This is how she handles issues, she does not single anyone out, she punishes us all in the name of being a manager. It’s rather tiring being treated like a child (and I’m older than she is).

  169. AnotherFed*

    I posted recently about the new hire sleeping and on his phone during meetings… well, he did it again this week, so now it’s a pattern and the actual supervisors (I have delegated hiring authority and performance review responsibility, but firing is two levels up from me) are getting involved. So far the response from everyone has been “Oh, him? He’s a minority. That’s going to be impo… {see AnotherFed’s face}… um, difficult.”

    The opposite of racism is NOT that we should accept shitty behavior from minorities that wouldn’t be tolerated from white guys.

    1. Doriana Gray*

      Does he have sleep apnea? This sounds a lot like a former coworker of mine who was actually written up several times for sleeping at work prior to his diagnosis. He’d also be on his phone at inappropriate times, but it was because if he didn’t shift his focus occasionally to texts or some game, he’d be knocked out again. Once he got on medication and started regularly seeing a specialist, the sleeping/cell phone usage stopped.

      1. Observer*

        If he has a medical problem, he needs to talk to his supervisor. Absent that, armchair diagnosis is unhelpful at best.

        1. Doriana Gray*

          No one was armchair diagnosing (nowhere did I say, “Your coworker has sleep apnea, leave him alone.”) – just throwing out a possibility. I’ll refrain from adding personal anecdotes to these types of questions moving forward.

          1. Observer*

            No, personal anecdotes can be very illuminating. My point here was that in this type of case, while you could be 100% correct, @AnotherFed needs to avoid going down that path. Sure, I actually agree that this sounds like it could be sleep apnea, the way to handle this is NOT to ask about this specific issue or to act as though this is probably the issue. Rather someone at the appropriate level should let the guy know that the behavior is a problem, and needs to be addressed. You have a medical condition, let us know and we’ll talk accommodation. If you don’t know why this is happening, we’ll give you a chance to find out.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I’ve heard comments like this too in my job. And about everything – “well, he’s over 50 so we can’t just fire him” etc. It’s not just about non-white.

      Thing is – this kind of thinking doesn’t do protected classes any good either. I have a wonderful black male colleague who has told me in the past he worries people will think he was promoted because of his race. But he’s actually just phenomenal at his job, which is why he was promoted, so he really doesn’t need to worry.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Totally agree that this isn’t good for anyone! I’m all for some verification and oversight to prevent unreasonable firings, but refusing to fire someone because it’s bad for diversity numbers just means that most people question (at least a little) whether a minority teammate is there for numbers or actually good at their job. That just sets the good people up for a harder time, and means the overall population gets a little more racist.

        Don’t even get me going on promotions – we can pretty much predict who is getting high grades in the leadership chain based on what the statistics look like. The technical high grade promotions seem much less driven by diversity stats, but there are far fewer of them and there’s a lot more good candidates, so it’s hard to pick a total dud for them.

      2. Observer*

        But he does have to worry. Unfortunately, there are going to be many people who would to make assumptions about him that are just not fair. Hopefully he’ll manage to avoid them, but he odds are not that great.

    3. Artemesia*

      That is lazy management. This guy needs to be referred to EAP for screening for sleep issues, needs to be informed that the behavior is inappropriate and needs to stop (in writing) and needs to be put on a PIP if it doesn’t turn around.

  170. Idiot*

    I changed my username on my paycom account and I guess I forgot it because I haven’t been able to get into the system since. I alerted my manager Weds morning and she emailed payroll but they hadn’t gotten back to her as of yesterday afternoon. I was supposed to get paid yesterday and still haven’t although my manager told me this would not delay my paycheck. I’m salaried but still have to enter my hours into the system. Should I email her again? I hate to bug her on the weekend for something that came about from me being an idiot but even idiots have to eat!

  171. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

    I know I am really late to this, but here is hoping some peeps are scrolling.

    I had interviewed with a company that really impressed me, but they cancelled the position. I then got my current roll, which relocated me to the area. I’m not actively looking to leave my current role so I’m not avidly following this company or anything.

    I went ahead and sent a quick email to the hiring manager of the other company letting him know I was in the area, that I was impressed with the company during my interview, and that I would be interested to know if any similar positions came open.

    So any HM’s out there? Would this bother you or is it an OK networking email?

    1. AnotherFed*

      That’s a good networking email – it won’t hurt, and it might help. If I’d liked you as a candidate, I’d at least keep you in mind if something comes up. If I really liked you as a candidate, I’d save the email against future openings. And even if you hadn’t been a good candidate in the first place, one email is not at all strange or creepy.

  172. AnonAssistant*

    Going anonymous for this question – I work at a university and part of my job involves collecting student employee timesheets and submitting them to the timekeeper. I double-check to make sure they fill out the timesheets correctly, hours aren’t over the max, etc. Since it’s close to winter break and people travel, I reminded the students to put zero hours if they are going on vacation. I wouldn’t know if a student goes on vacation or not – they do research in a lab and they don’t have to punch in or out so we depend on the honor system in some sense. Most of the students will tell me when they are going away and will mark their timesheets accordingly.

    I’m friends with some of the students on Facebook and I just saw that one student has gone on vacation but that student still put in regular hours. For the record, some students do continue doing their research even though they travel (e.g. home for the holidays) – they technically don’t always need to be on campus, in the lab, to do work. But I do believe that this student is taking an actual vacation (popular tourist-y destination, photos also show him and his family doing vacation-type activities).

    I was thinking of “nicely” reminding him of the vacation policy and ask that he correct his timesheet but I feel a little odd about it because I found out about the vacation through Facebook photos. Is it fair game since the student knows the photos will show up on my news feed?

    1. Doriana Gray*

      Yup, it’s fair game and the student needs to know not just because you can both get in trouble if it’s discovered by someone higher up, but also because he’ll think this is okay to do at future jobs.

    2. Observer*

      I agree with @Doriana. Also, Facebook is not private. You didn’t go snooping in his trash, or invade his privacy. He knows you are a facebook friend, and he chose to put this on his stream. I can’t see any ethical reason not to use legitimate work related information that came to you in a reasonable and ethical fashion.

  173. HKS*

    Is there any tactful way to tell your boss that she doesn’t need to give you a gift for Christmas anymore? I started out as her assistant but have been at the company for a long time now and have been promoted a few times, with a very nice promotion recently. She still gives me a generous gift card and she gives one to her current assistant. I feel like she keeps doing it because she has been doing it for so long and maybe she thinks I expect it. But I wouldn’t be offended at all if she stopped – I would actually feel like it was an acknowledgment of the position I’m in now. She does not give gift cards to other people in the department who are at the same level as I am now. I’ll probably just wait and see what happens this year.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just wait see if she gives you anything and then say, that you understand your role has changed and your title has changed, so you understand if this is the last year she can do this. Then see what she says.

  174. FridayAnon*

    Update: Around this time last year, I asked for advice about my boss – likes my work but doesn’t like me, makes personal digs about my appearance and outside interests, our dept. head knows and doesn’t care.

    For a variety of reasons, I haven’t applied to another job but passively review other opportunities. I also went to EAP counseling. The most useful advice I received there was the same advice fposte gave, which was to frame the personal digs as concerns about my work. The counselor role played with me, and I feel much more able to address these issues when they pop up, which is actually less.

    Thank you again to the readers who responded to my question. I’ve kept all of that advice in mind, and it helps me understand what I can do to make the situation better for myself.

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