open thread – July 8-9, 2016

by Alison Green on July 8, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,600 comments }

{ 1,600 comments… read them below }

  1. Anna No Mouse*

    I have been at my current job for a little over a year. Before I started here I was deeply involved in creating the organizational framework for a website. I came up with how things should be organized and what type of information should be included, etc. I just found out today that the site finally launched (it was for a government organization, so no surprise it took so long). I’m just as excited as if I had still be on the team the whole time.

    Would it be appropriate to link to this website on my LinkedIn page, even though I wasn’t there through the whole process, and was no longer an employee of that organization at the time of launch? My old manager is the one who told me about the launch and even he said “Your fingerprints are all over it.”

    2. Manders*

      I also say yes, that’s a normal thing to do. You still worked on a crucial part of the project.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Websites are strange animals, and seldom is the work done by one lone person, but rather sets of specialists (writer, designer, coder, database, etc.)
      It’s fine to link to this in your portfolio. I think just be clear what your role was.

    4. Gene*

      I’d say yes, but keep an eye on it while you are using it as an example of your work. If it changes, you may not want to be associated with it anymore.

      2. Meg Murry*

        Yes, you may want to take some screen shots now to use as the portfolio, just so you have a record of what was your actual work, and so you don’t wind up accidentally taking credit for another overhaul and/or for a bunch of broken links or wonky formatting if changes get made in the future.

        1. Anxa*

          Also, this could help in case there’s a pretty drastic change in the future!

          Consider screenshots that highlight some of the functionality you may have contributed to

    5. H.C.*

      I would say yes & also take screenshots of the most prominent pages too, in case the site gets changed in the future.

    6. Honeybee*

      YES. At my company we have three evaluation criteria: things you did on your own, things you did that contributed to other people’s success, and things that you did that built upon other people’s work and leveraged their experience for max contributions. All are equally important! Sure, someone did the foundational work but you did a lot of things to make it the way it is, and many, many projects are team-based. It’s still valuable experience you gained and a tangible product, and you can always explain to interviewers exactly what you did and how you used your expertise.

  2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    Today is my last day at my insane job! I’ve been applying for work at our next posting but no bites yet–I’m confident I’ll find something better than this, though.

    Lest we forget my boss’s greatest hits: he told us that “just because the province says I have to give you a raise doesn’t mean I do!” (That is exactly what it means, and a quick chat with the Labour Board sorted that out.) I had a horribly embarrassing incident where I had to run home and change clothes after bleeding onto my skirt, and after hounding me for a reason said “you should have planned better!” He’s had not one or two but FIVE people quit on him by just walking out in the three years I’ve been here–no notice or anything. He drives so badly that we had a stranger call the office and complain about his driving (logo and number on the company trailer that he was towing, doing 145 km/h down the highway). Way back when, he asked me to give a presentation on a business trip after about 9 days of employment and almost no training (wrote into Alison about that one). And finally: his utter lack of management and any consistency at all led to his brilliant strategy of periodically holding meetings where he would berate us all and tell us he didn’t need any of us, and then think morale had been much improved. In three years I had only one review, which was a complete surprise, and received almost zero feedback on anything. I can recall one compliment about my work, which he actually said to someone else.

    I am on to better things, no matter what!

    2. RVA Cat*

      Justice would be this jerk having everybody under him quit and be stuck with all the work himself…since he doesn’t need any of you, he can handle it, right? ;)

    3. Daisy Dukes*

      That’s awesome, congrats!! Was there a breaking point that made you give notice without something lined up?

      Either way, you totally deserve better!

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        Oh no, my husband is military and we’re being posted out, so I had a good excuse to leave on good terms. I’ve been here three years, so it wasn’t totally unexpected, I think.

    4. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Yay!

      I also remember something about a clueless employee (who was a friend of his) and faxes . I don’t remember the whole story but that was pretty funny plot line.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        Oh, Lord, my coworker and the faxes. God have mercy. She’s utterly convinced that faxes are the best way to get in touch with people, especially in colleges and universities, and no amount of telling her will deter her. None. She sent one today!

        1. Mockingjay*

          Was there anyone on the receiving end?

          Ours is broken and we never bothered to get it fixed, because who faxes anymore? (Other than the medical insurance company which is a PITA, because we have to go to Kinko’s or something to send it.)

          1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

            I have NO IDEA. We had different territories, and honestly I know for a fact that if I have to fax something there’s only a 50/50 chance they’ll receive it because half the time the fax machine is broken, or stuffed away in someone’s office where it’s never checked, or it goes to a central fax machine that might not be on the same CAMPUS. The only time I ever fax something if I can help it is to a Purchasing department and they require it, and even then I have to call to follow up because there’s always “Oh, we didn’t receive it, can you try sending it again?”

            Or the one school that could only accept 3 pages of fax at a time. I had to send a 30-page fax 3 pages at a time. I spent a half hour standing there waiting.

    5. Kai*

      What a saga! I’ve enjoyed (that’s not quite the right word–it was always enjoyment in a cringing, sympathetic way) all your stories about your job and your boss the last few years. So glad you’re on to better things. (I knew you on the Toast, too, so extra happy for you.)

    6. Bowserkitty*

      Oh my god, I thought my oldBoss was bad…good for you, I’m glad you’re out of that environment! How has your boss reacted to your leaving?

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        Surprisingly not that poorly! When I asked if my leave date would be ok with him, he did say “well that’s not really up to me, is it?” And also he hasn’t been in for my last week so I have to send him a bunch of documentation emails, but it could be worse!

    8. AF*

      For those not using metric, 145 km/h is about 90 mph!! Oh my gosh – congrats on getting out and best of luck to you!

    10. Funfetti*

      OMG – yay! I remember reading your story whilst in the middle of job hunting hell – so glad it’s ending on relatively good terms. That’s a relief and now you know what to look for – as it what makes a terrible boss!

    12. Kittymommy*

      I remember one job I had that the owner told us in a meeting that we didn’t deserve raises because trained monkeys could do our job. Three of us quit within two weeks. When I went back a few months later about something else one of the other owners asked me to cone back. Apparently no monkeys applied.

      Anyway good for you. You will be onto bigger and better things soon enough. Enjoy the freedom of being away from this guy!

      1. Anxa*

        So I know that that’s a pretty insulting thing to say, but…

        Trained. Trained Monkeys. Training that while even if other people contributed to, the monkeys would have had to participate in and keep up with.

        So yeah, not only is a jerky thing to say (and probably not true!), but it dosn’t even make sense.

      2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        Hilariously, after that meeting my boss mentioned to one of my coworkers “I think things are going much better here after that, don’t you?” and she had to inform him that no, everyone was miserable and his little stunt effectively killed morale for everyone. He was astonished. He truly did not realize.

        He didn’t get any better, but, you know.

    13. Anxa*

      My jaw is on the floor. I’m really glad you refer to him as a boss and not supervisor/manager/lead. Deplorable.

      I am so happy you’re going to be rid of that situation

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Ah such good news, Boss is left to twist in the wind of Karma and you are on your way to something better. Congrats on your last day and smoothly exiting this mess. Good luck with the search for the new place, let us know how you are doing.

    15. Ruffingit*

      Wow, you survived that nonsense for three years?? Amazing. So glad you’re on to bigger and better things!

    16. Dot Warner*

      Congrats! It’s amazing what getting out of a bad situation will do for your life!

    19. Fafaflunkie*

      What a bleepin’ jerk your boss is. Kudos for getting out of this looneybin, and all the best of luck in your job search.

      Btw: I don’t know what province you’re in specifically, but if it’s the same one I’m in, going 45 clicks over the speed limit is getting borderline with laws that prohibit racing on the road. (Going 50 over=automatic $10,000 fine minimum for first offence, the vehicle being confiscated for at least 7 days–with you also getting to pay for the towing/storage fee to get it back out, your licence suspended at least 7 days but likely longer, and you can go find your own way home from the shoulder of the highway. Oh, lest we forget what will happen to his insurance premium for having this on his abstract!)

      You can get to grin ear-to-ear when this happens.

      1. Fafaflunkie*

        I noticed just now I made an assumption that Boss Speedy was on a major highway where the speed limit’s 100 km/h, but usually never happens as either 1> traffic is so congested you’re stop-and-go on these highways or 2> when things open up, the normal flow of traffic’s around 110~115 km/h.

  3. Caledonia*

    I passed my OU exam! It’s a bare pass, but a pass it is which means I am just 60 credits and 9 months short of graduating with a BA (Hons) in Humanities next summer.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Great! Congrats! (What’s an OU exam? In my part of the country it’s University of Oklahoma. Is that a thing there?)

      2. Mander*

        Open University, I think. It’s a British university that doesn’t have a central campus but is like a nationwide commuter school. They used to show lectures on TV here.

      3. Tess McGill*

        Exactly! I got so excited about OU, I almost posted “Boomer Sooner”! Congrats on passing!!! Way to go!

      4. Dweali*

        Haha, I was thinking the same thing while the sooner song started playing in my head :-)

    4. UK JAM*

      Yay! What course was it, out of interest? I have an OU degree in Humanities (with literature) too.

  4. Mockingjay*

    I have a new job! I start in two weeks.

    This time, I paid attention to AAM advice on asking culture questions during the interviews. This was my biggest mistake in past interviews; I focused on the described work and experience needed, and didn’t ask about company expectations and management style.

    The new place should be a much better fit. It has a lot of structure, which I need, and a large part of its core business is technical writing for engineering. I will join a group of experienced peers who understand what it is that I do, because they do it too! I also get to learn new publishing software.

    And most importantly, NO MEETING MINUTES!

    *Does the Snoopy happy dance!*

    1. Caledonia*

      Congratulations Mockingjay on getting out of there! And further celebrations for no more meeting minutes!! Now you just have a great story to re-tell :)

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      GOOD GOD PEOPLE.

      You *and* Former Diet Coke Addict are moving on? The same week?

      What are we supposed to do for material around here?

      1. Aurion*

        Look to Alison, I guess. Between liver-donor boss, funeral-interrupting boss, and all the others that’s come up recently, I think Alison is giving us a lot more material than usual ;)

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Former Diet Coke Addict and Mockingjay were weekly serial stories, though. Now they are going to go off to normal jobs where they are actually happy and what about us. What. About. Us.

          1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

            AAM has taught me that there is no shortage of utterly insane workplace behaviour! Every time someone I know says something like “that’s insane, that would never happen, that person is a troll/lying/making it up,” I think to myself that that specific person may be, but there is a whole planet full of people out there. Almost every insane thing that can happen in a workplace has happened.

            Employee had to be disciplined for coming into work in a chicken costume? I believe it. Employee fired for having sex on their desk during work hours? I believe it. Boss tells employee their job has changed to requiring them to provide housecleaning services at the boss’s house on weekends? I believe it. I don’t know of any workplace where these have happened, but I’m confident that somewhere on this planet, they have all happened. And worse. Far worse.

            We will just have to hang around here in the open threads and wait for all these amazing stories to reveal themselves!

            1. Ruffingit*

              I totally believe the “no way, never” stories because I’ve lived so many crazy workplace situations, I know that anything is possible!

            2. Cáilín*

              Lol….in a previous waitressing job when I was a teenager the boss told me I could babysit for him or stay at home instead of coming in for my shift which meant I worked longer hours and lost my tips! He pulled that stroke 4 times before I moved on.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I asked about team interactions: they cross-train and rotate assignments to build skills, ensure coverage, and to keep things interesting. The work supports several government contracts, so I asked how they manage expectations. They were very clear: you support the customer, but you work for the Company, you answer to the Company, and the Company will handle issues with the customer on your behalf. (This concept is NOT understood in my soon-to-be-gone position.)

        They have a niche business core and have stuck to it as evidenced by 1) long-term contracts with the same government customers, and 2) employee retention – people have been there 7 years, 10 years, 15 years… They have a big charitable arm which they fund very well. Employees are encouraged to participate, but not required. (They emphasized the not required.)

        And I asked one of Alison’s suggested interview questions. “Thinking back to the person who was in this position previously, what made their performance so outstanding?” They were floored by it. I’m glad I asked it, because the person I am replacing was there for 11 years, and was very highly thought of. (Their answer was Passion. Someone who is passionate about the work, quality, and teammates. They told me I demonstrated all of the above! :) )

    6. Jen RO*

      Congratulations! Out of curiosity, what publishing software is the new company using?

      1. Mockingjay*

        They use Adobe Framemaker. They do a lot of big technical manuals. I’ve actually wanted to play with it for a while.

  5. Batshua*

    I had an interview yesterday for the totally different kind of job than I’m doing now, and I ROCKED it. I’m pretty sure the fact that I’m legitimately interested in learning new things is helping me out here. I’m only competing against two other candidates, but I don’t know what my actual odds are.

    I’m kinda nervous, because even if I get the job, right now my department is severely understaffed (we have 3/5 of our clerks, and it might need to be 6 clerks) — I don’t know if/when they’d let me go. Could the staffing issue end up blocking my job?

    (It’s a US government job, btw.)

    2. Jennifer*

      Is this a job in the same department? Yes, the “if/when they’d let you go” could be an issue (I’m supposed to be getting a transfer but it’s up in the air as to when because of short staffing), and someone else who got a job in that department told me she was doing 2 jobs for a while after getting hired.

      It will be their decision as to how to handle it, though, not yours.

      1. Batshua*

        It’s a totally different department doing a totally different job with an entirely different skill set.

    3. Shiara*

      So things are probably different for government job, but when I was moving to a different department and leaving an understaffed team, “if” wasn’t really in question, but “when” definitely was. My company had the perspective that they’d rather keep me with the company than try to force me to stay somewhere I was beginning to feel bored at, since the end result would likely be that team losing me no matter what.

      However, I did have to wait around a lot while we hired someone else to do the work I was doing and then longer while I brought that person up to speed. End result being that someone external who applied to the other open position in the new department after I applied, started working about two months before I finally completed the transfer.

    4. Kittymommy*

      I know with the government I work for it depends on a few things, mostly if where you are going out tanks where you are coming from. All parties being equal it might just end up on how well the heads of each department get along and if they’re willing to play nice.

  6. Annie Moose*

    On a scale from “not a big deal” to “what is wrong with you, Annie”, how OK do you think it is to kick your shoes off when you’re at your desk? I work in an open-ish office with a casual dress code (jeans every day, hallelujah!) and wear bare feet in flats (it’s summer, I’m not wearing socks unless my shoes require them). Sometimes my shoes start bugging me, so I’ll kick them off under my desk. Of course, I put them back on if I need to leave my desk, or if someone comes by, and I doubt anyone else has ever noticed.

    However, it’s occurred to me that I’m sitting here barefoot, and now I’m questioning how weird that is.

    1. Batshua*

      Do you have coworkers who would see you barefoot? Are your feets smelly? How casual is your office?

      Probably not a big deal unless you have limburger feet or you’re walking around barefoot.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah if your desk area is set up so people can’t see your feet while they are under the desk I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

        If it does worry you, though, I have a pair of quilted fabric ballet flats that are the most comfortable shoes ever for office work and look professional, but aren’t great walking shoes. I originally would bring them to the office in the winter so I could change out of snowy shoes, but now I leave them here full time and have used them when my shoes get rained on, give me blisters, or just on days where I can’t face my commute in anything but sneakers. I call them my “work slippers.”

        2. smores*

          I have a pair of work slippers — they’re shaped like s’mores and have a USB plug so they actually warm up! I think barefoot is OK as long as the public can’t see it, I’m fine if my co-workers see me in barefeet, but I dint walk around barefoot, usually. (I once stepped into my boss’s office barefoot, but I had just walked several city blocks in heels and just couldn’t take one more step.)

    2. Leatherwings*

      Not weird. We have a guy who walks around the office with no shoes and everyone here talks about how weird it is, even though women kick off their shoes under the desk. As long as you’re not walking around the office, it’s no big deal.

    3. Caledonia*

      I don’t find it odd. I’ve had times when I’ve wanted to cool down or my shoes pinch so I’ve taken them off. I’ve also gone down corridors (on my own floor) in socks before now too.

    4. OhNo*

      Not a big deal, especially if you work in a more casual office.

      That said, I have a coworker who likes to kick her shoes off and then curl up with her feet on her chair, in plain sight of everyone that walks by, which always weirds me out a little. I think it is 100% okay to have your shoes off, but personally I really don’t want to see my coworkers’ bare feet every time I have to walk by.

    6. The Other Dawn*

      I would say it’s not a big deal if your feet stay under your desk. If you’re getting up to walk around and are bare-footed, that’s a different story. And if your feet smell, keep the shoes on. Otherwise, I’d say it’s fine.

    7. AnonEMoose*

      As long as your feet aren’t generally visible, aren’t stinky, and you put your shoes on if you get up, I don’t see a problem. If you feel odd about it, you could think about bringing in an old towel or pillowcase or something. Rest your feet on that instead of the floor, and take it home and wash it every now and then. I’ve been known to kick my shoes off under my desk, too, but I’m typically wearing socks.

      1. Beezus*

        This! I don’t like the idea of putting my bare feet on the floor at work. I kick off my shoes sometimes, but I rest my feet on top of the shoes, never on the floor.

        2. Mallory Janis Ian*

          I kick my shoes only partially off, resting my toes in the heel part of the shoe. That way I feel like I don’t “really” have my shoes off, and I can slip back into them very quickly if someone is about to see me. My feet are hidden under my desk, but I just don’t want people thinking that I’m barefoot at work. One of my former coworkers used to get up and walk around with her bare feet, and everyone talked and talked about her. Her bare feet and oblivious attitude about going that way were a huge factor in my not wanting her to get a promotion from reception to our department; I knew she’d be walking her bare feet all over our office suite, and there we’d be, looking unprofessional as hell for the foreseeable future. Hmph!

    8. Bowserkitty*

      I’m doing it as I type. :) I’ve seen other coworkers of mine do it as well when I walk past their offices, and we all work in a closed-toe shoe environment.

    9. Emilia Bedelia*

      I’m literally doing the same thing right now, so. I always put my shoes back on to leave my cube, but otherwise if I’m sitting down, my shoes are off. I see people walking around in slippers and Crocs that they keep at their desk so it’s not that uncommon

    10. intldevt*

      I think it’s quite normal, at least in my office! I do it and does my boss…and I honestly don’t know how I would get through the day without doing it. My feet get uncomfortably sweaty in flats during the summer.

      Perhaps slightly less conventionally, people in my office frequently walk around in sock feet or bare feet if they’re just running to grab things from the printer. (We’re an NGO with a pretty casual dress code.)

    12. Librarian Ish*

      Haha! I’m barefoot right now. I think you’re fine, though I’d definitely wear shoes if I’m wandering around.

    13. Manders*

      I try not to, but I often accidentally kick a shoe off because I wear flats and I’m so short that my feet dangle when I’m in an office chair. If you’re confident that no one will ever notice, I guess it’s like news anchors who wear jeans behind the desk: people might find it a bit weird if they see it, but no one’s gonna see it.

    14. Pwyll*

      I do this in my business formal office all the time. I think it’s fine so long as you’re not wandering the office barefoot.

    15. Putting Out Fires, Esq*

      I hope not because my feet are starting to swell due to pregnancy and I use every chance I get to give them a rest….

      1. EmmaLou*

        Isn’t it hard to get them back on again? My feet swell w/o pregnancy and if I leave my shoes off by the end of the day I can’t get the shoes on without a ridiculous looking struggle. If I were in an office the struggle would probably involve “:ba-thump!: I’m okay! :sigh:” I’m clumsy.

      2. Emelle*

        When I was pregnant with my first, my boss stopped by my desk to tell me that he needed me to wear different shoes to work because it was hurting him to see my gigantic swollen feet in flats. He said if I had nice flip flops or sandals, I could wear those and if anyone said anything, send them to him. (Of course the next day 4 people said something about how much happier my feet looked and the boss’s son was unhappy that I was out of dress code. Oh well.) I also kept shipping boxes under my desk to keep my feet slightly elevated.

    16. AF*

      Not weird – I know lots of people who do it. And thank you for putting them back on when you walk around – if you’re in the U.S., it’s an OSHA violation to walk around barefoot at work. (I sadly learned that because of a coworker a previous job who walked around barefoot. Ewww!)

    17. H.C.*

      For better or for worse, my feet smell like butter popcorn (and caught the attention of at least one co-worker, thankfully – or tactfully – she only commented “who’s making popcorn?” and didn’t put me in the spotlight.)

      Now I only kick off shoes only if they feel super stuffy (and for the briefest time possible) or if my adjacent co-workers are in day long meetings.

    18. Nanani*

      I used to do this, before I dumped office life in favour of freelance working from home.
      This was in an office where people (including my manager) would go around in slippers or crocks as long as they didn’t need to go outside, so norms may vary, but you’re probably fine :)

    20. legalchef*

      I almost kick my shoes off under my desk. Don’t worry about it unless people can see your feet!

    21. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      I do this sometimes as my standing desk is a little too short for me to use while in heels. So I kick the heels off. Nobody in my office has ever noticed or cared except for one person, and I always put my shoes back on before walking any distance away from my desk.

      I heard through the grapevine that one coworker was griping about someone ELSE that dared work with shoes off, so she must have noticed that I do it too. But… this coworker has a reputation for being fussy about small matters so it’s of no concern.

    22. Jen RO*

      I had a coworker who used to take his shoes off, and everyone said it was weird. No smells or bare feet, but it was seen as too unprofessional even for our casual office.

    23. LiveAndLetDie*

      I do this all the time! Same as you — open-ish office, kicke them off under the desk, put them back on if I get up for anything. It’s never been a thing.

    24. Kat*

      incredibly common in my office. Hardly anyone wears shoes, including the owner. We also do slippers in the cold weather, so…

    25. Gene*

      I tend to not kick off my shoes, mainly because they are boots that need to be unlaced. But around here it wouldn’t be a problem to wander around the office in socks or bare feet. I’ve been known to come back from lunchtime walks, take off the walking shoes, and spend the rest of the afternoon in walking shorts, a t-shirt and socks.

    26. Big City Editor*

      I have a private office, and I kick off my shoes all the time. If I had a cube, I’d do it, too, but only if no one saw my feet. I think this is a “know your office” type of situation. Do other people do it? Is it casual enough that people wouldn’t care?

    27. TheCupcakeCounter*

      If your feet smell bad its probably not great but otherwise I say no problem

    28. Nervous Accountant*

      We have the same dress code, and not unusual at all. I didn’t even know bare feet in flats was a wierd thing ???

      I’ll wear flip flops around the office but only if boss and upper mgmt aren’t in. I just don’t do it bc I’m more self conscious about the smell.

    29. Kay*

      50% of the reason I work in museums is because I think it’s ridiculous fun to wander around the exhibit in stocking feet in the morning before we’re open. Granted, I’m alone when I do this, so it’s not exactly an open office / coworkers kind of thing, but I say go for it.

    31. vpc*

      I do it all the time, and I even wander up and down my cube row to talk to coworkers barefoot (in the summer) or in socks (in the winter) if I’m just popping over for a quick question/answer. The shoes go back on anytime I leave our cube corridor for the next one over, because you never know if you’ll end up sidetracked to the next one over from that, or around the corner to the boss’s office…

    32. Honeybee*

      If kicking my shoes off under my desk is wrong, I don’t wanna be right. I do this all the time, and often sit cross-legged in my office chair with bare feet.

    33. Cáilín*

      This is something I do a lot….and I’ve seen a lot…never bothers me….as long as the feet or shoes don’t smell

  7. Patricia*

    Just a bit of a vent here. My manager went on long service leave a few weeks ago and we’ve had a temp manager during this time. It’s sort of an awkward situation because while she is above me in seniority, she’s still new to our work and so doesn’t have the best ‘feel’ of what we can/cannot do. She’s asked my co-workers to alter their (on-going) projects in ways that just doesn’t serve the purpose of the project (and often very time-consuming), and it’s been a bit of a chore trying to merge styles.

    I haven’t had to work directly with her until recently. We’ve started a project where she’s designed the outline, but I’m supposed to bring the technical skills to carry out the work – only problem being I wasn’t consulted when she came up with the outline. It’s too late to alter it now since it’s been approved by the client, so I just have to make do. The most frustrating part is when I ask her for details on certain aspects of the project I get replies along the lines of ‘you’re supposed to be the expert in this area’. While that’s true, it makes me wonder why I didn’t just head up the damn project, at least I would’ve had more say its direction!

    The other frustration is that she has a sort of vague way of communicating instructions, and prefers the ‘drop by to give verbal instructions’ rather than putting stuff in writing. This has lead to some instances of confusion, where I’d send her a piece of work and she’d tell me that wasn’t what she wanted, and that I ‘must’ve misunderstood’ what she was saying. No concessions that she may have not been clear. Though, I’ve learnt my lesson and basically follow up every conversation with an email to say ‘just confirming, you want ABC done in XYZ way?”.

    Ugh. It’s only seven more weeks before my regular manager gets back, and I hope this is the only project I’d have to work on with her. Trying to remain zen.

    1. intldevt*

      I share the problems you describe and your venting was cathartic…Except that my manager has been here for over a year. o.O

    2. Packers Fan*

      Ugh. I feel you. I had that manger once. I even used my best AAM tone and wording to ask for specifics when she gave me general criticisms, citing that I couldn’t grow and fix the problem if I didn’t know what the actual problem was. She couldn’t provide actual examples or behaviors to correct but yet put it in my annual review. Lucky for me she left shortly thereafter. Hope things improve for you!

    3. ASJ*

      I’ve heard coworkers complain about a higher-up here too for the same reason. :( To paraphrase one, she did it and it wasn’t what he wanted, so he did it himself… and the end result of what he actually wanted was night and day compared to what she did. People who can’t or won’t fully articulate what they want can be soooo frustrating to work with.

    4. Fabulous*

      I also HATE when people refuse to put things in writing. If you tell me something, I can guarantee it will go in one ear and out the other. To combat this, I try to take notes during the conversation and then email them a confirmation of what they talked about. I’m all about written logs of things.

  8. Mustache Cat*

    Business fashion question?

    I’m about to enter a ‘business casual’ setting after a couple years at an extremely casual workplace. That was my first post-college job; during my college internships I could rock the business formal pretty well, but I just. Have so many questions about business casual:

    ‘Jeans Friday’ is a thing at my workplace, so I’m assuming that jeans aren’t allowed usually. But are colorful denim ankle pants (I hope you guys know what I’m talking about-I can follow up with a link) acceptable? I can play it safe with dresses just about forever, but my personal style tends to lean masculine. Is there such a thing as mens businesswear, cut for women? If I never had to wear flats again, and could instead have an elegant, comfortable size-5 women’s version of men’s business shoes, I would be in heaven.

    Thoughts? Suggestions? Help me

    1. Jubilance*

      If jeans are only allowed on Friday, I think you can’t do colorful denim on other days. I’d at least give it some time and observe what other people wear to figure out if they would be acceptable in your new office.

      1. Mustache Cat*

        To follow up, something like this

        I mentioned it specifically because I did see someone walking around with something similar–maybe not denim? I’m not sure–during my interview, but I don’t want to inadvertently ape the style of an intern (although she didn’t seem like one)

          2. Lemon Zinger*

            Agreed. I have some great pink denim trousers, but I can’t wear them at work because we can’t wear jeans.

        2. justsomeone*

          You can probably get away with the softer cloth version of those, found at places like Loft or Anne Taylor. Avoid denim except on Fridays, until you’ve been there long enough to know if denim would fly.

            1. zora.dee*

              This. Old Navy also makes their Rockstar Jeans in other fabrics sometimes, I wear shirts that are long enough to cover the pockets/rivets and you can’t tell they are jeans bc they are not denim. But i would not wear colored denim.

            2. echosparks*

              I loooove Old Navy pixie pants. Comfy, fashionable, not expensive, look good with heels or flats.

        3. Aubergine Dreams*

          I agree with Karo. I think bright colors in another fabric would be fine. I’m thinking like cigarette pants, which have a similar shape as your link but in a nicer fabric would be ok. You can often find them in other colors, also.

    2. Sarah*

      I wear colored jeans at my job, but we are on the very casual end of business casual. I would avoid doing it for a couple weeks until you have a chance to observe your coworkers and how they dress; that will tell you where on the spectrum of business casual they fall.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      I agree with the wait-and-see approach. While I would probably steer clear of colored denim at the outset, it may be something you could add to your wardrobe down the road, after you have proven yourself.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      I wouldn’t wear colored denim until/unless I saw others doing it.

      You can totally rock a menswear feel in a business casual environment – just look for women’s suiting bottoms and skip the jacket.

      1. designbot*

        oh I do this the opposite way–I wear womens slim-cut pants, and a jacket lets me put whatever shirt I want underneath including t-shirts. A jacket forgives everything!

    5. Kyrielle*

      Treat all denim as jeans. Err on the formal side of things until you suss out what ‘business casual’ is for your office – because unfortunately, that term can mean anything from “no jeans or t-shirts” to “business formal, without the jacket or tie”.

      That said, in a business casual environment on the casual end of that spectrum, I tended to go with button-up blouse and nice slacks. (And, I don’t know sizing in the smaller sizes, but there _are_ some women’s shoes that are similar to men’s business shoes if you hunt around. The selection is more limited, but it’s non-zero. Payless Shoe Source, of all places, was a good one for me. But remember when pricing them that those tend to fall apart sooner than their more expensive counterparts.)

    6. Beezus*

      Look for womens’ dress oxfords – there are lots of shoe options out there that are modeled after mens’ dress shoes. It’s definitely a thing!

      1. Dawn*

        Dr. Martens’ is great for these kinds of styles! They have decent prices on sales and clearance items, too.

      3. WorkerBee 23*

        Oxfords & loafers, both. I don’t dress too masculine but I love a pair of oxfords or loafers with a slim-cut ankle pant, top & a blazer. It makes me look put together but still comfortable. Win-win!

      4. Blue_eyes*

        +1. I love that women’s oxfords are in style right now. I’m wearing a pair of gray Cole Haan oxfords at this very moment. So comfortable and supportive compared to most women’s shoes!

        1. zora.dee*

          Born also makes oxfords in different colors that are amazingly comfortable. Esp if you have a narrow heel/wider toe box like I do.

    7. Emilia Bedelia*

      I also wear colored jeans, but I definitely stayed away from my bright green ankle pants until i noted if other people wore them or not (I do, in fact, wear bright green ankle jeans to work on occasion…). I also really like Old Navy’s pants- they have some very comfortable trouser style pants.
      With regards to shoes, I have a pair of Sperry gold cup penny loafers, and I love them. They’re pricey (I got mine at an outlet for $55; full price they’re like $175) but they’re so comfortable and the leather is beautiful. I have them in a medium tan color and I wear them like 3 times a week. There are lots of brands that make classic styles of shoes for women

      1. Bea W*

        I have bright green ankle pants but not denim. They have received many compliments on them!

    8. RVA Cat*

      Deck shoes (Sperrys, etc.) with khakis tend to be business casual acceptable for both sexes. For something dressier, Franco Sarto makes dress loafers for women – the ones with the low heel are almost identical to men’s.

    9. AW*

      I think denim pants are going to be viewed as jeans or similar enough to be the same thing. It’d be safer to save that for Fridays.

      You can get slacks, button down shirts, etc. If you’re having trouble finding some it’s because it’s summer and women’s clothing stores have decided that people don’t buy work clothes when it’s hot for some reason. Try looking online for lightweight suiting options.

      I have occasionally seen women’s shoes that look more like men’s business shoes to me but I’d have to go hunt them down since I can’t recall the brand name. They do exist though. Would it be possible to just buy men’s shoes in your size? When I have a chance to go hunt them down I’ll follow up with links.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        If she’s a women’s size 5, she’s probably closer to the top end of boy’s sizing than the bottom end of men’s. Which- if I could fit into boy’s shoes, I’d totally do that. Nice wide toe boxes!

        1. Meg Murry*

          This was my thought too, if Mustache Cat is referring to US sizing – a women’s size 5 is approximately a boys 3 or 4. When I was in high school I wore a women’s 6-7, which meant I could buy the boys sneakers for a lower price than a very similarly styled women’s pair, and I can sometimes buy the largest girls size in things like sandals, flip flops or water shoes. I’d check out the selection of oxfords and loafers in both womens and boys on Zappos. Brands like Clarks also tend to be more comfortable and have some menswear-esq styles. It shouldn’t be hard to find a boys oxford or loafer that fits and would look appropriate with dress slacks or chinos.

          I probably would avoid anything cut in a 5 pocket style like jeans for days other than Friday until you see what other people are wearing. I’m with you in that I prefer to wear clothing more like what is available in the mens department – pants with pockets that can actually hold things, shoes I can wear with socks that don’t pinch or rub, etc. Women’s boot cut and trouser cut pants are coming back into style, which is good because I think those look better with more substantial shoes (and the width covers part of the shoe), whereas I feel like skinnier pants look better with a more delicate flat or heel. I can wear more casual pants at work now (jeans, colored denim, khakis, etc) so I tend to get those at Old Navy and similar, but for dressier pants that still have pockets you could look to Gap, the Limited, or many department stores like Macys or Nordstrom.

          Once it gets cooler, you could probably also wear a low or flat dressy ankle boot with pants.

        1. zora.dee*

          ha, should have scrolled down, just said the same thing above. I have two pairs, black and brown!

        2. Overeducated*

          I have a pair of Born women’s oxfords with no heel that are adorable and very comfortable.

        3. Margali*

          Love those, but why is it so hard to find women’s shoes in wide widths? I ended up having to buy men’s running shoes because the women’s wide selection was so poor.

      3. Library Director*

        I have a pair of Cole Haan Zero Grand oxfords and Pinch penny loafers. The oxfords are great because they are basically a dressed up athletic shoe. The normal prices can frighten, but they have good sales.

    10. Erin M*

      I work in a business casual office. Pants like that wouldn’t fly here. For my company, denim = jeans, color is irrelevant. I know of other offices with a business casual dress code where they would be fine. I’d say it’s a wait and see thing. Take your cues from what your new coworkers do.

    11. KL*

      My office is business casual with ‘Jeans Friday’ as well. For us, colored denim is not allowed during the the normal business casual days.

      In most business casual settings, pants are fine for women as long as they aren’t jeans. I’m a bit more feminine in style, but I love my trouser-cut pants in the fall/winter and my cigarette pants in the spring/summer. And yes, you can find women’s versions of men’s shoes. You may have to hunt a bit longer, but I love the Hamble Oaks shoes made by Clarks.

    12. NK*

      I think it’s best to stick to the more formal side of the dress code for at least the couple weeks, so you can figure out the norms of your office. The one thing to be careful about is to make sure the people you are modeling the formality of your wardrobe after are people who are well-respected in the office. I’ve found that there’s some positive correlation with the people who tend to push the envelope on the dress code and those whose work isn’t highly respected (yes, I realize there are MANY exceptions to this, but I do believe there’s a correlation).

      Also, if you prefer menswear styles, trousers definitely fall into business casual; no need to wear dresses or skirts!

    13. BRR*

      I am leaning towards no on the colorful denim. What I woudl do is play it safe for a little bit and you should be able to quickly assess what will or won’t work.

    14. Alston*

      Ok so do the pants read as denim? If so I wouldn’t do it (at least not the first week). But if it’s more like the Pixie pant for Old Navy I’d probably go for it. Those can be dressed up/down and with a nice top or a blazer would have flown in the business casual offices I’ve been in.

      And yes on the businessware cut for women! I’ve seen some stuff at Asos that is nice. But if you’re petite (which I’d wager if you have size 5 feet) you might check out Banana Republic and Express. My petite roommates have had great luck at both places.

      1. Mustache Cat*

        Just looked up the Pixie pant–actually, I think that’s exactly what they were! I’ll wait a week and see if I can slide on over to my local Old Navy.

    15. Bend & Snap*

      Do a little shop for things you need (pants etc) and get the lay of the land before you supplement your wardrobe. I made the mistake of doing a lot of shopping when I went from casual to business casual, and what I got ended up being all wrong for the culture–not to dressy per se, but too stuffy, like regular suits and pearls instead of dress + blazer with statment jewelry.

      Cole Haan does nice, comfy oxfords and there are lots of menswear-inspired loafers that are totally work appropriate. But again, hang tight and see what people wear. You don’t want to invest in a look and have it not be appropriate.

    16. themmases*

      I wouldn’t wear colored denim during the week if other means aren’t OK. I’d recommend trying something like the Pixie pant at Old Navy for a similar look/fit to ankle jeans that won’t read as denim.

      There are a lot of more masculine style shoes that are trendy for women right now. Look for women’s oxfords and loafers– there are a lot of styles to suit your preference. I like more masculine fits and styles too, and oxfords are what I live in much of the year.

    17. Ann O'Nemity*

      Don’t invest too much in a wardrobe overhaul until you can see how your new workplace defines business casual. In the meantime, lean more business than casual. No denim, just to be on the safe side. Besides, you’re trying to impress now so might as well go a little more professional.

      There’s menswear-style and shoes for women! J Crew, Loft, and Ralph Lauren have boyfriend cut chinos (khakis). And Google search women’s oxfords – those are the shoes you’re looking for. Bonus: women’s oxfords look awesome with the Loft ankle fit color chinos.

    18. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Check the dress code, some places I’ve worked were ok with colored denim and some places said no denim at all except for Fridays. You can always play it safe with no colored denim for the first week or so and see what others do. At my workplace, the “business casual” dress code actually skews more casual (IMO) and is not strictly enforced, there are lots of people that wear colored denim pants throughout the week.

      I wear lots of trouser-cut dress pants, most of mine are from the Worthington line at JC Penney. If I wear pants, that’s the style I prefer. In the summer, I’m pretty much always in dresses or skirts, khakis on casual Fridays. But maybe I’m weird, I *hate* to wear denim in the summer. It is too dang hot!

    19. Jen*

      For shoes in a biz casual environment, check out driving Mocs. I’d go for ones with a buckle/hardware but they would work with crisp colored ankle pants (but not suit pants).

    20. TheCupcakeCounter*

      No colorful denim – not really business casual.
      NY & Company has a modern fit pant that has some interesting menswear inspired styles – straighter leg and a narrower cut.
      For the shoes – you can find a women’s oxford loafer that should fit the bill

    21. Artemesia*

      Denim pants are ‘jeans’; you can’t wear them if jeans are inappropriate.

    22. CM*

      “Is there such a thing as mens businesswear, cut for women?”
      Sure! I think this is actually pretty easy. Nice pair of pants, button down shirt, socks, and oxfords — same things that men wear to work, in a cut that you feel comfortable with (you could also actually buy men’s clothes and find a tailor you like, if typical women’s fits don’t work for you). Maybe a blazer. I googled “masculine women’s work clothes” and found a bunch of images — you could see what’s out there on the web for inspiration.

    23. acmx*

      Try alterationsneeded dot com for ideas. She’s a petite blogger who dresses in menswear style (although I think she may wear heels mostly and not oxfords or loafers).

  9. I Volunteer As Tribute*

    I want to do some unpaid/volunteer or very cheaply paid social media/online editing work to boost my resume a little bit. Something mostly online that would be easy to do from home in the evenings or weekends. Anyone know of where I might find something like that? I’ve tried looking at businesses locally but haven’t had much luck so was wondering if there was a website for something like this, like Indeed for volunteer work.

    1. Caledonia*

      I may or may not have gotten these sites from commenters on here before, I can’t remember. I’ve not tried any of them though so can’t personally vouch for them.

      globalgiving(dot)org
      helpfromhome(dot)org

    2. Slippy*

      Try your local humane society or animal rescue. They usually need/want people with social media skills to help get animals adopted.

      1. SL #2*

        Yes! My friend is a social media/volunteer photographer with a local animal rescue and they’re always looking for more help.

    3. Audiophile*

      I recommend volunteer match. I’ve found a few volunteer opportunities through that site, including my current volunteer work. I do all my work remotely and they’ve become a really great reference for me, as I’ve moved back into the communications/marketing/social media field.

      2. Stella*

        VolunteerMatch is good? I was poking around on there but a lot of what I found seemed to be one off stuff, or very odd stuff (like several postings from different organizations just asking people to buy through SmileAmazon to credit their organization). I didn’t see much that seem reputable.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          It can be really good – I was also making the communications/marketing/social media move and got hooked up with a remote opportunity as a newsletter writer for a nonprofit through VolunteerMatch.

        2. Audiophile*

          VolunteerMatch can be great. I found a few opportunities through that site. I’ve been remotely volunteering with an organization for a few years now and it’s directly led to interviews in marketing/communications/social media and job offers.

    5. babblemouth*

      Search for local chapters of large organisations. While the central hub of these is usually well-staffed, it’s often hard to find good social media people locally. The plus is the you’ll be regularly working with people at the central hub who themselves have a strong network and a lot of experience to share.

    8. College Career Counselor*

      You might look at idealist(dot)org for volunteer/part time kinds of things as well.

      1. Anxa*

        If you live in a a bigger city I’d second idealist and volunteer match.

        In my current city (of 80K), there’s not a single entry on either of those sites in the 40 mile radius.

        Here I notice more things on a pretty drama-heavy FB group that’s basically like a free-community share.

  10. justcourt*

    My gut tells me linking to the website of an organization you no longer work with is a little weird*, but I would definitely mention it.

    *I am by no means an expert, so apologies if my instinct is incorrect.

    1. justcourt*

      Oops. That was meant to be a reply to Anna No Mouse. I think my mind is already in weekend mode.

    2. Lizabeth*

      A link with no explanation would be weird but one with some verbiage about how she was involved with the development of it should be fine.

  11. Hlyssande*

    Today is our last day of blessed quiet. Next week, He will be back in the office with his loud and inane self, and we’ll hear about everything he did on his staycation at minimum 5 times before 10am Monday.

    It’s been so nice.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      Sorry- that sounds awful. Good luck to you in tuning out this weirdo.

      1. Hlyssande*

        He really is awful, and not just because I reached BEC level with him years ago.

    3. CM*

      The local paper publishes “50 word stories”… I think this one could be a winner!

  12. Daisy Dukes*

    Hi everyone! I have a question regarding having shares in a company when you’re looking to leave. I work in a small company and they have given me a good amount of shares because I’ve been getting stellar reviews.

    It’s not a public company and I don’t know if they’re going to be acquired in the upcoming future. I have been here a while but I’m getting increasingly unhappy with how the company is being run.

    My questions are: can I keep these shares if I leave and how much should this be a factor in whether I stay or not?

    1. the gold digger*

      Are you vested? If so, yes, you can keep them.

      (My experience with stock options at a publicly-held company – options were priced at $42 but the stock price was $22. I had 6,000 options. My mom asked me, “Why would you pay $42 to buy them from your company when you could get them cheaper on the open market?”)

      (And my memories of the mid 90s: You can be a millionaire on paper but that doesn’t matter if nobody is going to buy your shares from you.)

    2. Pwyll*

      By shares you mean stock in the company? Generally, when you receive stock as part of an incentive plan, you should also receive something in writing (like a contract) that explains your rights to the stock and what will happen if you leave or are terminated. For example, most companies who do this have a Shareholder’s Agreement or an Incentive Stock Agreement that outlines the process for (or, in some cases, requires) the company to buy out your shares upon resignation or retirement.

      If you haven’t signed any of that, you may want to talk to your HR or payroll or whomever and ask them for the details on your stock because you’re having your accountant/financial planner review your estate plan, and (s)he will need those details. That way, you won’t clue them off that you’re looking to leave.

      1. Pwyll*

        (I’m coming from the standpoint of closely held companies. Publicly traded companies are way different).

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      Did they give you shares or options? Is there a vesting schedule? There are a lot of subtle issues (including tax implications) associated with employees receiving stock in private companies, so you should learn more about what you are dealing with.

    4. Beezus*

      You’re asking whether the shares are vested or not, and nobody here will be able to tell you that. “Vested” means you own the shares free and clear and can keep them if you leave. Does anything in your benefits paperwork tell you when/if the shares are vested?

      If the shares aren’t vested, of course that should be a factor in whether you stay. Not the only factor, but you should weigh the value of the shares against how badly you want to leave and how long you’d have to stay to wait for them to vest.

    5. Alston*

      So if you’re vested you get to keep them. Personally I wouldn’t factor this into whether or not you are going to stay. You’re not happy–it’s time to look elsewhere. Another thing to keep in mind, especially if you’re in tech is that a lot of times when you switch jobs you can get a pay bump. At a certain point even if your company does get sold, and you do get money from the shares you would still be losing money compared to what you could have been making in salary.

      Also your company is probably not going to be bought by Google for 1 Billion right?

      My boyfriend has worked for two companies that were later sold. He had stock at both of them and yes he got some money, but it’s not like he’s rich now because of it. He has a lot of ex coworkers from the last company who are upset that they stayed around as long as they did and in their stock isn’t worth as much as they’d hoped.

    6. CAA*

      When you say you have shares, do you mean actual shares, or stock options? Either way, there should be some legal paperwork describing the conditions of the grant and a vesting schedule. This should have been given to you when you first got the shares, and you would have signed it. You should find that and read it. If you weren’t given a copy, then look around on the company’s intranet or file server for it. It might be with finance, payroll, or benefits forms.

      Typically, if you own shares of stock, then the agreement you signed includes an option for the company to buy them back when you part ways or within a certain period of time thereafter. They get to set the price.

      If they granted you stock options then there will be a vesting period of several years, and there will also be a description of how to exercise the vested options and how the company can recover the shares you’ve purchased if they are still a private company at the time of separation. Usually, if you haven’t exercised your vested options, then they expire when you leave or 30 days later.

      Unless you’re a founder or member of the board, it is almost never worth staying at a private company which is not planning to go public just because you own some stock.

    7. Daisy Dukes*

      Thanks for your replies! My understanding is that the contract states that if I leave, the option can be exercised for 3 months.

      I’m not quite sure what that means, can someone clarify?

      1. Alston*

        I think that means you have the option to buy out your shares for up to 3 months after you leave. Sounds like maybe you have the option to buy the stock, not actual stock?

      2. the gold digger*

        It sounds like you have stock options, not actual stock.

        Stock options matter only if the strike price is lower than the market price. Otherwise, they are worthless.

        As far as when you can exercise – what this means is you have three months from the day you quit to buy the stock from your company at the strike price. After that, you can do nothing. Ideally, the strike price would be lower than the market price, although how market price is determined for a private company, I do not know.

      3. CAA*

        We need more information. The wording you gave could mean that you were given options to purchase shares in the company and you have up to 90 days after you leave to exercise your options; or it could mean that if you leave, the company has an option to repurchase the shares you already own and they have up to 90 days to exercise their option. Since this is a private company, my best guess is it’s the latter. Private companies usually don’t want to have a lot of random former employees owning shares.

        If you don’t want to ask your HR or Finance team to explain this to you, then you really have to find the company’s stock plan documentation and read it yourself or take it to someone else who can help you understand it.

      4. Jerry Vandesic*

        Be careful if you decide to buy your options. If the shares are worth more than you pay for the options, there will be Alternative Minimum Tax implications (in essence, you could owe taxes even though you haven’t yet sold the stock for a profit).

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          I was a bit imprecise in my wording above. Let’s try again:

          Be careful if you decide to exercise your options. If the shares are worth more than you pay to exercise the options, there will be Alternative Minimum Tax implications (in essence, you could owe taxes even though you haven’t yet sold the stock for a profit).

    8. steeped in anonymtea*

      You should have gotten the terms in a written agreement, for example, how long you have to stay to be vested in the options.

    9. NacSacJack*

      My concern is if you own stock or have stock options in a private company, you might not be able to sell to anyone other than current stockholders or to the company itself. I have a friend who owns shares in a family run business, but the Shareholder Agreement says he can only sell back to the company or to his fellow family members. Thus, none of the relatives can use their stock for loans or such. And if they need money, one of the other family members has to use their earned income to buy it from them, which isn’t often since they all make about the same amount of money. They are millionaires…on paper only.

    10. Artemesia*

      When workers receive shares there are always rules about them: when they ‘vest’, at which point they may be sold after being acquired etc etc. I have never heard of a business that gives shares without very clear rules about them.

  13. Anon for this*

    Any one had success with long-term office temping? Did you have to supplement it with other jobs?

    1. bassclefchick*

      I think I’m the poster child for long term office temping. My last stretch was 5 years and as I look back on my “career”, I’ve temped more than I’ve had permanent jobs. Which is a sad tale of woe for a different thread. LOL. No, I didn’t have to supplement with other jobs. But, I’ve been lucky and had long term placements (think a year or longer). In my state, I’m eligible for unemployment when I’m between assignments. I really think the staffing service industry is moving away from “you’ll be at company A for 3 days and then we’ll send you to company B for a week or so”.

      The hard truth is, it’s very stressful not knowing how long you’re employed. Sure, the service may tell you they’re sending you out for a 6 month placement, but business needs change. That six months could end up only being one month. Or, you could get lucky and they extend your contract for another few months.

      1. zora.dee*

        “I’ve temped more than I’ve had permanent jobs.”

        Twinsies!! Me, too. It’s nice to meet another one! high five!

        And yes, I agree with everything you said. I have temped in a few different big cities, and I’ve usually gotten mostly long-term assignments, as in 1 month or longer. I definitely recommend signing up with more than one agency, especially at first. To increase your chances of having steady work. But I have not had to supplement with other jobs.

    2. Me2*

      I was an office temp for eight and a half years but it’s been eons ago. I loved it. I learn new things quickly so I was a good fit most places. I also got offered a job at easily two out of every three places. Good way to find full time employment if you’re a good worker. It’s also a good way to find out if it’s a company you would want to work for. If they try to get you to come to work without paying the “finder’s fee,” you have to ask yourself what else they will try to take shortcuts with. It was my only means of income, so I did live off of it, but it was certainly tight at times.

    3. Kalli*

      I wasn’t allowed to sign up to temp because the agencies here said “companies only want people they’ve hired before” and “there isn’t enough work”. They recommended signing up with multiple agencies or having a work-from-home flexible position to fill in the gaps.

  14. Folklorist*

    ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! For US readers, I know that you may still be in the 4th of July funk (I know I am!) But today I will wrap up my post-conference e-mails and some small tasks so that I’m well set up to concentrate on my big, scary project all next week.

    What have you been putting off? Boast about your achievements in the comments and give yourself a gold star!

    2. Annie Moose*

      I’m going on vacation for two weeks (to Wales and England–I’m very excited!), so I’ve been running around trying to get everything in order before I leave. One of my projects the past two weeks has been identifying every web application that uses HR data… and what fields each of the applications is using. (we just went through an acquisition, so we’ve got to migrate our data into their systems)

      Given that we have over 130 applications and two separate database systems with this data, it’s been taking awhile. But! I’m just about done, which is exciting, because of how incredibly boring it’s been.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Finishing my last set of meeting minutes! Ugh. I’ll work on them after lunch…

      1. De Minimis*

        Trying to get documents together for our ultra-convoluted credit card process, which is behind to the point of absurdity. Constant printing and photo-copying of e-mails, receipts, vouchers….stuff keeps getting mixed up and lost. All of this because we have two separate bank accounts based on different funding sources, but the card is paid from a single bank account, so we have to write checks to ourselves each month for the other bank account to reimburse the one that pays the credit card. Is this a common practice with non-profits? It is the single biggest issue I have with this job.

        1. NJ Anon*

          Not common. Why 2 accounts? I’m guessing each bank account gets money from a different funding source but can’t that be changed? We completely switched bank accounts and I had to change over all funding sources to the new account. It was doable.

          1. De Minimis*

            We have a mix of federal and non-federal grants, so we have a federal bank account and “other” bank account. Since there are so many rules about spending federal grants, the reasoning is it all should be kept separate. The complicated part is allocating the federal share of all of the stuff that is routinely paid from the other account [payroll, credit card payments, etc.] which is more like a regular operating account. It would help if we could just transfer the funds electronically, but my boss seems really adverse to anything that doesn’t require a ton of paper documentation.

            It would help if we had separate credit cards for federal and non-federal program expenditures, but that would be too much of an inconvenience for staff [also, some of them participate equally in federal and non-federal programs–especially the executive level people who also do the most travel.]

            1. Ama*

              I guess I see the theory behind it, but I’ve worked for a few nonprofits/academic institutions with funding that had to be restricted in some way or the other (including federal), and most of the places I have worked keep all the money in one place but use software that assigns account numbers to the various sources of funds to keep track of what was spent. There’s still some documentation involved (we have to fill out a form each month indicating the account each credit card charge gets reconciled to), but it’s a lot less involved then what you’re describing.

              1. NJ Anon*

                Exactly. They make nonprofit accounting software exactly for things like this. Federal, state, local, it all went into the same bank account physically but was differentiated in the accounting system so you could track the revenue and expenses for each funding source.

                1. De Minimis*

                  Yeah we are using software that IMO doesn’t really suit our needs [we’re too large and complex for what we’re using, I think], but apparently there are no plans to change it. The weird part is the “other” account also has a lot of funds that are restricted [a mixture of various non-federal grants along with donations and sales/fee revenue]] but for those no one seems to care if everything is sitting in one bank account.

                  We also do things like pay vendor invoices with two checks each from a different bank account, which is a real treat for them I’m sure.

    4. Marillenbaum*

      I am putting off writing memos on the briefings I attended. I’m not sure how much anyone cares whether or not they get done. In Boasting News, I had some practice on the foreign service oral exam and my tutor told me I aced the hypothetical section! I’m taking the exam on the 22nd, and while I know most people don’t pass on their first round, I feel like I will at least fail less badly than I was afraid I would!

    5. CMT*

      I didn’t even do that much last weekend, and the holiday still left me feeling exhausted this week. TGIF!

    6. Rat Racer*

      I’m sitting in paralysis over prioritizing the 20 things on my to do list, all of which are important, all of which require a deep state of concentration. Reading AAM not helping. Typing this confession does make me feel a little bit better though. I think I can rally…

      1. Folklorist*

        You can do it! Choose ONE. Just close your eyes, stab your finger down on your list, do it, cross it off, come back here and brag. Repeat. We’re with you!

        1. Rat Racer*

          Thanks Folklorist. I did get a couple things done. I really need to boil a frog. Time to close eyes, plug nose and take the plunge…

    8. animaniactoo*

      Working on the last piece of packaging that officially counts as assigned work. Then I’ll start updating all our product templates with a revision I decided they need. And then I’ll file my desk. I mean all the paperwork on my desk. Yes, that’s what I meant…

    9. EddieSherbert*

      (To be fair, I also took off Tues/Wed so this is a two day week for me).

      Yesterday I put off troubleshooting the error I’m getting when I try to update my test database for the software I work for… and I tackled it today. It actually was a much quicker fix than I thought it would be :)

    12. Soupspoon McGee*

      I’m working on my application to PA schools. It’s insanely competitive, and I’m really struggling this year. Last year, I was optimistic despite the ridiculous odds, but this year, not so much. My top pick last year got 1600 applications for 50 seats.

      Now I’m staring at “Why do you want to be a PA?” and thinking, sardonically, “Well, it’s better than being a grantwriter.” And then I have a handful of cliches about wanting to help people, loving science, lifelong learning, blah blah blah. I need to turn my cliches into something compelling, or come up with plans B, C, and D.

      And that’s why I’m repainting the bathroom and refinancing my mortgage.

  15. Foxtrot*

    I have s follow up to the dress code letter earlier this week. I’m an intern now who also went to Catholic school. We had a lot of things that just aren’t done in church for no other reason than the nuns said no. So I’m used to just accepting that you have different weekday and weekend dress, I guess.
    Anyway, I’ve been watching some of the other interns this week and I notice a lot of things that I just wouldn’t do at work. Skirts higher than knees, baseball caps on guys, open toed shoes, sleeveless tops… Are these things acceptable now? Am I just a curmudgeon in my 20s?

    1. Leatherwings*

      It just depends on your workplace. In some this would be a no go. In my office, everything you listed except baseball caps are fine.

    2. alter_ego*

      It’s so hugely dependent on your workplace. I’ve violated all of those rules at least once this week, except for the hat thing. But I’m an engineer, and we tend to be more casual than a lot of industries. You just have to get a read one what everyone else is doing.

      1. Foxtrot*

        I’m an engineer too…how do you get away with open shoes from a safety standpoint? I’m in the lab half the time, so our restrictions on that are legitimate. I’ve had internships with three different companies that all require hands-on work at some level.
        I meant I still would wear them in a purely office environment.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          I work in engineering consulting. Other than the occasional trips to the field or client’s site, open-toed shoes are fine for our business casual office. I guess my point is that not all engineer’s have restrictions for safety reasons. : )

    3. Lizabeth*

      Depends on the job and culture. Wore jeans and sweatshirts at a printing company for most of the time I worked there. And now with the weather going above 80 my skim knee shorts are out. That said I saw on the streets of NYC some great “summer suits” on guys. One was a formal suit cut and fabric but the pants were Bermuda shorts style with calf high socks and business shoes with a tie, sunglasses and a man-bun. He totally rocked it.
      The other was a variant on that theme – pink shorts, busy print shirt and solid contrast tie and the mandatory sunglasses and man-bun.

    4. Chriama*

      I think these are all borderline things and depend on the specific implementation as well as the culture of the workplace. Skirts higher than knees: are they so short they wouldn’t be out of place in a club, or just a little above knee-length? Baseball caps: I think hats inside are typically disrespectful, but I acknowledge that I might be old-fashioned in that view. Open-toed shoes: I’m actually fine with this in the summer. I don’t get people’s hang-ups about seeing other people’s feet. But again it really depends on the implementation. And I’m also fine with sleeveless tops (as long as we’re not talking thin straps but just sleeveless. I remember Alison not being a fan of seeing armpits in the office, but I’m fine with it as long as those armpits are shaved (men and women, for more details on my stance on armpit shaving last week’s post on shaved legs in the office).

      1. Foxtrot*

        Yeah. I actually had a few nuns/teachers who also taught my mother when she went to the same school. I acknowledge that I may have a super old fashioned way of thinking for my age. :)

        1. Chriama*

          I also went to a catholic elementary school – although here it’s a public school district, just separate from the regular secular school district, so we never wore uniforms. But we weren’t allowed to wear spaghetti straps (which I find weird because kids don’t have to worry about bra straps which is what I find unprofessional about spaghetti straps) and our skirts/shorts had to be as long as our middle finger when our hands were by our sides. I still hold to that standard for skirts, although as I’ve gotten older and filled out it’s not quite as modest as it was when I was a skinny 9 year old. I personally don’t wear skirts that cover my knees because I’m short and I feel like they make me look shorter. So above the knee but below mid-thigh is kind of my standard.

        2. Ife*

          YES It takes so long to unlearn some of the things they teach you about “appropriate dress” in Catholic school. I was in college – four years out of Catholic school – before I fully accepted that wearing a tank top was not the same as wearing just your bra. Like, you can walk around the neighborhood wearing one and not get an indecent exposure ticket. Shorts took me awhile too.

        3. Elsie_D*

          I didn’t go to Catholic school, but I spent some formative years in a Baptist school* and it can definitely be disconcerting to realize that no, that is not a universal standard, and that wearing a little less clothing doesn’t make you a heathen or completely immodest. At my school, skirts had to reach exactly the middle of your kneecap, and I definitely saw teachers pull out rulers to measure how long the skirts (which were mandatory for weekly chapel days) were!

          (One of my middle school friends once told me that she didn’t feel comfortable if her collarbone was exposed. HER COLLARBONE.)

      2. Minion*

        I have never, ever understood the whole hats inside being disrespectful thing. I was raised that way and that’s the general culture here in my southern residence, but I just don’t get it. What, exactly, is being disrespected by having something on your head? The room? The room’s owner? And, in what way, specifically, is wearing a hat actually disrespecting anyone or anything?
        This isn’t to rant on you – and, if I’ve come across that way to you, please accept my apology. I’m just very curious as to what your reasoning is.

        1. Mander*

          I think it is perhaps a throwback to religious considerations — in most Christian denominations, AFAIK, it’s considered disrespectful to God for *men* to cover their heads (some people even include long hair on men in this, apparently) in church. This idea has just become mutated to mean that hats inside is somehow gauche or rude.

          I could be wrong on this, though. Feel free to correct me, anyone.

          1. Bea W*

            That’s interesting. Other religions, including some non-mainstream Christian denominations, claim the opposite, that covering your head is a sign of respect for God.

        2. Chriama*

          I have no idea *why* it’s disrespectful, but it’s one of those things that I just know. That’s why I acknowledged I might be old-fashioned in that specific area. I suspect it has its roots in either religion, something to do with royalty (not wearing a hat in the presence of the king) or hygiene reasons from back before humans knew about germs. I was also an air cadet and the military is big on wearing hats at certain points but not others (it’s been a long time but I seem to recall we were supposed to take it off when sitting down but keep it on when singing the national anthem, so we’d have to stand to sing the anthem). Anyway, I don’t think I find it personally disrespectful, but I would probably find it unprofessional in a business casual environment.

        3. Overeducated*

          Could it indicate you’re planning on leaving any minute and not accepting hospitality?

        4. Not So NewReader*

          Doesn’t it supposedly date back to medieval times where the knights would remove their head gear to reveal the faces. That meant they were vulnerable so they would do it just in front of people they trusted.

    5. JOTeepe*

      Aside from the caps, most of these things are fine, especially this time of year. There’s a bit of a double standard in regards to above-knee skirts: For example, someone like me (I’m 5’2″) can get away with it because 2/3 thigh looks longer on someone short than on someone who is, say, 5’7″. I have knee length skirts but they look a LOT longer on me than they do my tall friends.

      I always bring a sweater or jacket when I wear a sleeveless top, but depending on how warm my office is or what is on the schedule, I may take it off and drape it over my chair.

      As for open-toed shoes, so long as they aren’t Tevas or flip flops, they are acceptable for business casual. I live in my leather wedge sandals this time of year, which actually look dressier than some of my closed-toed shoes.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yup, open-toed shoes are acceptable at my business casual company. My cutest shoes are Nine West open-toe d’orsay ballet flats and they always get compliments.

        We can also wear sleeveless or spaghetti strap shirts if we wear a cardigan or jacket over it. Some people take them off at their desks like you do and then throw them back on before a meeting or walking around.

    6. designbot*

      Don’t look at the other interns to establish what’s normal, look at the junior-level fulltime employees. The other interns don’t know any better than you do.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Yes, I was going to say this too. The other interns are possibly stretching what is appropriate a bit either because they don’t know any better or because they are trying to make what they already have in their closet work – and if it isn’t extremely bad chances are no one will tell them that they are dressed inappropriately.

        Look to people who have been there 2-5 years that don’t have a reputation as “quirky rockstar” for a better understanding of what would be appropriate office apparel.

    7. animaniactoo*

      Skirts just above the knee are fine. When they start hitting the mid-thigh, they’re not – think of it from a bending over perspective. If you can bend over without accidentally flashing someone, you’re fine.

      Open-toed shoes – fine in my company, as long as they’re not flipflops.

      Baseball caps, eh, not really seen here.

      On the other hand I work at a company where e-mails get sent out by HR to please dress up tomorrow because TRU or Walmart or Bank reps will be in the building. So no jeans. As I work in the art department, I violate that one anyway usually. Professional top, dark/nice jeans – black if they’re washed. One of my gripes about our HR dept is that sending an e-mail at 4:30 pm to clean up your desk and make sure to come in wearing good clothes tomorrow doesn’t give most people much planning time if they’re in the middle of a deadline, planning on doing the laundry on Saturday and can’t do it that night without a major hassle (The laundryroom in my building closes at 9 pm. I get home at 7:30. That math sucks).

    8. fposte*

      I think skirts higher than knees are pretty standard. The fashion for suiting is going a little longer again with the return of the midi, but as a petite that’s still where I have my business skirts hemmed. That’s not the same thing as a miniskirt, which is less likely to be acceptable.

      1. Foxtrot*

        Sorry…I didn’t mean an inch or so above the knee. I meant mid-thigh or higher. One particular instance was a short skirt and dark tights, but it still seemed a little too casual for me?

        1. Chriama*

          I’m on the fence about short skirts and tights. I’m guilty of wearing a too-short skirt and trying to hide it with tights, and although I don’t do it anymore I think that can work depending on just how short it is. One that that makes this more confusing is that a lot of the office fashion stores (think forever 21, dynamite, le chateau, suzy shier) will sell blazers and pretty short pencil skirts, and you see lots of mid-thigh suits on TV and in popular culture. Also, I hate to say it but body shape matters too. It’s not just how long the skirt is in the front but how low it goes in the back. Thinner people sometimes fly under the radar with more revealing clothes because it just doesn’t emphasize as much on them. I feel like we’re venturing into the whole “women should be sexy but not too sexy” conversation so I’ll stop there, but I agree that an inch or 2 is the difference between a short skirt being ok vs. inappropriate. I’m not going to say any more because I feel gross just writing it, and in a perfect world it wouldn’t make a difference in professional dress standards.

          1. Anxa*

            Hmm, I would have never considered Forever 21 an office fashion store. I knew people could find workwear there, but I always assumed you had to do a lot of hunting.

            I think something like Express would be more confusing. I have had a few really great items from there, but if you’re not careful, you could find clothes that really aren’t cut appropriately.

            I guess that just drives home how subjective this stuff can be.

      2. Mander*

        If you’re above average in height it can be almost impossible to find skirts that aren’t a bit above the knee in any case. I prefer mine to be around kneecap height but when I was trying to buy a suit a few years ago everything was mid-thigh or higher, which felt entirely too bare for me! So a bit above the knee is very common.

    9. NJ Anon*

      I feel for you! Went to Catholic grammar and high school. First day of first college class our professor asked a question and yes, I raised my hand. A few others did too. He joked that he now knew which of us went to Catholic school!

      1. Anxa*

        I wonder how that distinction happens. Maybe there’s something about public school’s culture that sends the signals that there are times in college when you could just answer? Maybe the hand raising in public school is more about logistics and rules and less about deference?

      2. Bea W*

        Weird. Maybe it’s being older but in public school where I lived the first thing we were was taught in kindergarten to raise your hand and wait to be called on before speaking. If you spoke out without being acknowledged you were reprimanded. That was true for all grade levels. It took me a long time to feel comfortable (sort of) with not raising my hand.

    10. I'm Not Phyllis*

      It depends on your office. As long as the skirt falls just above the knee cap I think it’s ok, but mid-thigh or higher is definitely a no-go. Open toed shoes are generally fine (I think?) in all but conservative environments. Where I previously would never have worn a sleeveless top or dress to work, I’ve done it twice this week – and in this heatwave I have no regrets! In my biz place, I’m honestly not a fan of the ballcap at work but some men (and women!) do wear them here.

    11. Anxa*

      To be honest, an above knee skirt may read as more professional, actually, if it’s not too short. Depending on the style and cut, a knee length skirt could be more….frumpy? Almost like it’s trying too hard to be modest? I don’t know. I know that a lot of above knee dresses and skirts have a more flattering sillouette that can help you look more polished or put together without being revealing or provocative at all.

      But that’s just from my perspective.

  16. Audiophile*

    Happy Friday!

    I had an interview yesterday with a company I interviewed with a year ago. It seemed to go well and I got conformation that they’ll be reaching out to my references today. I spent last night contacting my references, I’m confident they’ll give positive references.

    I’m hoping I’ll have an offer by next week. Thinking happy thoughts.

    I will say, I’m a little nervous about the salary difference between this new job and my last job, there’s definitely no room to negotiate, as they were upfront with their salary in the ad and interview last time.

    1. Mockingjay*

      I just negotiated salary. I was above their stated range, but they came up to a number we are both happy with. So it’s possible.

      Good luck and best wishes!

      1. Audiophile*

        I negotiated with the last job, for a pretty sizable increase and that didn’t work out very. I think a part of the reason I was let go recently, was because of budget and my salary.

        Anyway, the last time I met with this org, they stated that they couldn’t do any higher than their stated salary, at least to start. (They state their salary in the job ad.) It does sound like there might be an opportunity for increases later on.

    2. TootsNYC*

      also look for other things that might make it easier.

      Promise of a review a half-year, an extra week of vacation, a promise of training…

  17. on the subject of mathematics...*

    In some of the conversations around ‘why did you choose your career’ type subjects, I notice a lot of people say that they ‘don’t have the brain for maths’ or that they just can’t do it, or even that they’re scared of it.

    Maths was always my favourite subject at school and I enjoyed it more as it became more advanced. There’s something so immensely satisfying about solving a problem that it makes the previous seven hours of wanting to scream at the local fauna totally worthwhile. And contrary to its reputation, it’s not all rules and rigidity, there’s a lot of scope for creative thinking as well.

    I’ve wondered whether people are actually ‘bad’ at maths, or just that they weren’t taught it properly. There’s a weird sort of misconception that mathematics is a scary discipline and that you’d have to be super smart to get it. But aside from people with specific learning difficulties, I suspect it feeds into its own myth – people are scared because it’s presented as difficult so they don’t even try, and they can’t learn if they don’t try.

    I’m sure that there’s been studies or at least conversations raised about the way maths is taught to children at the outset of their learning, and whether it’d be possible to do it in a way that doesn’t bore and intimidate in equal measure.

    So for people who are averse to maths (not just as a discipline, but in general): was it the content itself that turned you off, or the way it was taught/tested? Were you put off by the notion that only certain people with a ‘mathematical mind’ would get anywhere with it? Or perhaps put off by its reputation? Can you think of anything that may have been helpful in getting you to give it another go?

    1. Foxtrot*

      Female enginner who *hates* it when girls say they’re bad at math…
      Statistically, more people have legitimate diagnosed learning disabilities in language arts than math. And more males have legitimate, diagnosed learning disabilities in math than females. It’s a cultural thing more than an aptitude thing.

      2. Elle*

        So there’s nothing you’re not good at? I am a woman who is legitimately NOT good at math, and it has nothing to do with being female. My dad is a retired NASA engineer, who spent quite a bit of time trying to help me improve in math. He was very patient, and I never felt that I was being steered away from math because I was a girl – quite the opposite in fact, he would have loved if I’d followed in his footsteps. Two of my sisters are engineers. We are all born with different abilities.

      3. Lemon Zinger*

        Everyone is different. I am genuinely bad at math. It’s not because I’m a woman, it’s because that’s how my abilities shook out.

      4. Tandy*

        But I AM bad at math. It’s just the truth. Those facts (if true) don’t change the fact that I’m bad at math. And I hate math.

    2. Spot*

      I tend to get numbers mixed up. If someone says “1,274” to me, in my brain it becomes “1,724”. I also feel like I need concepts really super-duper explained to me. I had to have a special tutor to teach me how to read an analog clock because I just couldn’t get it. I bailed on math around algebra when letters started mixing with numbers. It was too much.
      That being said, I was also the kind of kid who sailed through elementary and middle school without putting much work or effort into anything. I’d always been told I was very smart. So when I hit a wall with math, it was terrifying. If I couldn’t get it without effort, then that meant I wasn’t smart. If I had to work at it, that meant I wasn’t smart. Smart was all I really had, so it was devastating. So I just sort of gave up on it. So you couple that mentality with the fact that I do have some trouble with transposing numbers and not really getting mathematical concepts until they’re beaten into me with a stick, and it was a recipe for disaster.

      1. Spot*

        Also, I don’t remember this, but my grandmother told me about how when I was three-ish years old, I was practicing writing numbers one day at her house with my dad. I kept making my 3s backwards. My dad would correct me and show me how to do right, but I’d just keep reverting to drawing them backwards. Finally, my dad got so frustrated that he spanked me. I drew my 3s correctly from then on. That may have had some influence on my dislike for numbers.

      2. Kelly L.*

        A similar effect for me–if I had trouble with a math concept, people assumed I was faking and just being lazy, because if I was so smart at X, then I must of course be just as smart at Y.

        1. Anxa*

          Same.

          Although I still, STILL, can’t think of anything I’m really good at. Once I lost smart, I glommed onto “helpful and flexible and overall a pretty good kid” and all that other “well rounded” nonsense that was super-hyped up when I was in school.

          So when my difficulties seemed like it was laziness, I’d slip into periods of weird rebellion (but like, really super mild stuff like wearing oversized t shirts). And it was in part a discipline problem but more intrinsic. Because I couldn’t even be “a good kid” anymore.

          1. C Average*

            Oh, man. That sounds difficult. And can I just say that “pretty good kid” is nothing to dismiss lightly? I was recently comparing notes with a high school classmate, and we agreed that there were exactly three people in our school who were invariably kind. Not brilliant, not perfect, not overachievers, just consistently nice. I felt all warm and fuzzy just thinking about them.

            1. TootsNYC*

              Also, the kids who don’t spend time and attention on bucking the system and fighting over power with the teachers will have time and attention to spend on their school work. And for a kid w/ a learning disability, that might be what they need to figure out their own way around it.

          2. Kelly L.*

            I had this epiphany a few months ago where I realized I was really not the delinquent horror my dad thought I was, back in my teens. I suddenly went *blinkblink* and was like, “Wow, the worst I ever did was write crappy angst poetry. Dad got off easy.”

            1. Spot*

              My parents were so convinced that the minute they loosened the leash I would go get drunk, stoned and pregnant all in the same night. They didn’t trust me at all, and they had no reason not to.

    3. Caledonia*

      Interesting subject.

      When I was little, I moved from England to Scotland and they taught maths differently. I think I had to have coaching to get me up too the standard. I’ve also had really rubbish teachers in secondary/high school. I remember copying out work that was wrong and the smartest kid in the class correcting the teacher…I didn’t know any better.

      Lastly, and perhaps unfortunately, both my dad and brother are incredibly maths/science orientated – my dad could never understand why maths was so difficult for me.

    4. OhNo*

      For people being ‘bad’ at math: I think there is definitely a mindset that lends itself to mathematics – a particular way of thinking that makes solving the problems easier. But what that mindset is changes as you move into different types of math – I definitely have the brain for solving algebra and calculus problems, but set theory, topography, and other types of more theoretical math are definitely outside my wheelhouse. It’s why I got a bachelor’s degree in math but didn’t go on to grad school in the subject: I couldn’t find a grad-level program that focused in the type of math I like and am good at.

      That said, I like math despite of the instruction I received as a kid and despite the way it was tested. All my friends that are not big on math seem to cite the way it was taught as a major factor in why they dislike it.

      1. Anna*

        I can do math if I do it the way that works for me. I think the reason people struggle with it is because there’s this lock-step way we’re supposed to learn it and it doesn’t work for everyone. So there are things I absolutely understand. Functions. I love functions. There’s a table and each step is logical and follows the one before it. Statistics. I get them. I understand the kind of abstract way you have to talk about them (sample versus population, 17% of the 25% that voted, etc). However, fractions kill me now. And no matter how many times I solve the same sort of equation I will never be able to solve it or follow along a lesson without seeing each individual step written down. I cannot go from step 1 to three without getting completely lost unless you show me step 2. Every. Single. Time.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Stats. One prof said, “Statistics is what ever you make of it. There are no rules so you do whatever you can make sound good to other people.”
          Yeah, I learned a lot in that class. NOT.
          I retook the course. One should not take statistics over the summer because something about hours every day all week long is just not right. Even this other prof said, “Statistics is something you incubate. You put it down, look at something else and then come back to it.”
          I had a hard time shaking off what the first prof said.

          1. catsAreCool*

            I took statistics too. I never fully believed that it was right, but the teacher let us bring a “cheat sheet” into the test, so I wrote down the formulas and applied them. Can’t remember any of it now.

      2. Ife*

        Hmm, you sound a lot like me :) I also hated math as a kid/high schooler and once I got to college and they taught us algebra and calc properly, it was great and I majored in it. I joke that once they took the numbers out, math was easy!

        I think the reason I hated math at first was because it is (a) not intuitive — you need to memorize all your arithmetic, and (b) it feels very judgmental: “No, you are wrong.” Especially compared to things like literature or social studies, where if you don’t know the answer you can draw on your background knowledge and probably get something halfway correct. With math, if you do not know it, you can’t BS your way to a half-correct answer (until college when you start doing proofs!).

        So, math *is* hard in the sense that you have to do a lot of memorizing and remembering, and it’s not forgiving. Those aren’t traits that most people find endearing!

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          So, math *is* hard in the sense that you have to do a lot of memorizing and remembering, and it’s not forgiving.

          This is my issue with it. Anything having to do with formulas or equations I have to memorize is a no go. If I have those things in front of me, I can kind of stumble into the answer, but it takes a while.

          1. Tau*

            The frustrating thing for me is that that’s… not actually maths? It’s arithmetic. And it might be the way maths works for engineering and science subjects. But actual, academic mathematics? Is seriously one of the least memorisation-heavy subjects I’ve seen. At university, I used to joke it was the best subject for lazy people because of that fact. Still think there’s a definite element of truth to that.

            Instead, you needed to *understand* the area in question. If you had a good, deep understanding, then that was basically all you needed – definitions and concepts became natural and obvious, the statements of theorems became basic facts about how those concepts behaved, and with a vague idea of how the proof worked you could rederive it in an exam instead of memorising every step. Actually getting that understanding was really, really hard, but once you had it you were basically home free. No rote memorisation needed. I’d look at my flatmate who was doing biology with her telephone-book-thick textbooks of material she actually had to know by heart and shudder. No way could I have done that, all the memorisation would have driven me mad…

            1. Tau*

              To clarify – I’m not frustrated with you, I’m frustrated about the fact that the way we teach maths (or, really, “maths”) in school leaves people with this seriously warped idea of what the subject is and how you learn it. I happen to love maths, and it’s sad to hear people go “I hated it/I’m bad at it because X” when X shouldn’t be a factor. I imagine it to be a bit like someone who really likes classics and hears people say they dislike reading and literature because they could never diagram sentences correctly and they don’t do well on spelling tests, or someone who loves art having people go “ugh, I hate art, I always got told off for my lines not being straight enough in art class in high school.”

              1. Kristina L*

                I did well in math but also felt that a lot of teachers don’t teach math well. Maybe to some people, math is so obvious to them that they can’t explain it to the rest of us.

                I’ve been (very slowly) building a website http://dontmakemelearn.com/ where I try to make math, etc. more fun and explain how some math works. It’s totally free; I eventually want to put ads on it to at least break even :)

    5. AthenaC*

      I think there’s an issue with the way math is taught in school, at least in the US. I remember being so frustrated how every damn year in elementary school, we began the year with single-digit addition and subtraction. We focused nearly all our time on “basics” and speed drills. Nothing about the nature of mathematical concepts and numerical relationships.

      Which is fine in itself, but the problem is that we didn’t really start introducing algebraic and other abstract concepts until high school, or 8th grade if you’re lucky (when kids are 13 – 15 years old). And then they throw it all at you at light speed and expect you to go from basic algebra to AP Calculus (although still single-variable calculus) in three to four years.

      Now, they are starting to change this by retooling how we teach elementary school kids – I’ve seen my kids’ math homework in 3rd – 5th grade (ages 8 – 11) making kids think through multi-step problems and write WHY a solution is the way it is. I hope that by warming kids up to more abstract thinking early on, a higher proportion of them will be ready to learn advanced math and won’t be scared off by it.

      1. AthenaC*

        Side note: When I tell people I work in accounting, the most common reply I get is: “Oh I could never do that – I’m so bad at math!” Okay – let me state for the record that my job involves almost NO math. Any math I do is simple arithmetic and Excel does it for me.

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          Heh. Me and every other accountant I know gets the “Oh I’m so bad at math!”

          I always say, “Yeah, I’m not the best either! Good thing I don’t have to do any!”

          (I don’t count adding a column of numbers on a calculator or typing a formula into excel as “doing math”. Not at the simple level I deal with, anyway. )

            1. NJ Anon*

              I’m in accounting. People expect me to be able to do complicated math problems in my head. I’m no, please pass me the calculator!

        2. Manders*

          Ooh yes, that’s something I didn’t mention in my answer: my marketing job actually involves a fair amount of data analysis and turning columns of numbers into actionable insights, and it’s one of my favorite parts of the work. What I struggled with in school was mental math and manually doing things that I knew a computer could do for me. So I still say I’m “bad at math” even though I spend a lot of my day in Google Analytics and Excel.

        3. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

          I was told that a lot in my accounting classes, except all of our homework was math.

          1. De Minimis*

            In general I agree, though I also agree with something one of my profs used to say, “If I ask you for 10% of a number and you have to use a calculator, you may not be cut out for accounting.”

            But it’s way more important to know what the numbers mean…

            1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

              Yeah I think the problem was they turned over the teaching to the textbook company who had no other way to grade things than by using straight math. I don’t know what the teacher did, it was like she just read from the book and then assigned the homework which was all online through the textbook’s website.

        4. Former Retail Manager*

          HA! Yes, same here! If you can do basic math, you’ll be fine in accounting. No differentiation of equations to be found here….and I am perfectly fine with that.

          1. AthenaC*

            Hehe – although there was one time where a coworker and I got bored in training and tried to figure out how to write the integral of an equation in one of the training excel files. He had been a math major and the task was simple enough that it wasn’t completely beyond the Calc I remembered from high school.

            Although, the partner teaching the class gave us this look like we had suddenly grown a third arm.

        5. Sydney*

          Or the adding machine. There’s very little math in accounting and that’s why there are adding machines (or spreadsheets). Why do people think that? It’s not like we are sitting there with slide rules.

        6. MsMaryMary*

          I worked with pension calculations for a long time, and there was very little “math” involved. Anything vaguely math-related was done by the actuaries. I used excel and simple arithmetic.

          However, most of my coworkers were “math people.” We were having a conversation once about school, and several of my coworkers were saying how much they hated essay questions: there was no one *right* answer, they had to write a bunch of things and hope it was what the teacher wanted. I said, “Are you kidding? Essay questions were the best, you could just write a bunch of stuff and as long as you made a strong argument, you’d get full points.” They looked at me like I was an alien.

      2. Kelly L.*

        Yes! They assumed you forgot everydamnthing over the summer, every year. So the first half of every year was back to baby steps. Soooo boring.

        1. AthenaC*

          Exactly – so I spent that time being bored, thinking I was “sooooo good” at math. And I actually was okay because it took until AP Calc in high school for me to really hit my wall. It wasn’t because I didn’t understand the concepts; it was because: 1) for me there wasn’t enough time to let the concepts really sink in for me to be able to use them effectively (going back to my light-speed comment earlier); and 2) I have naturally horrible attention to detail which resulted in many, many mistakes and incorrectly-solved problems.

          Even as an adult I have horrible attention to detail, but I have strategies for managing it and a profession where literally everything a person does is reviewed by a different set of eyes.

      3. themmases*

        Yes, especially to formal algebra being added so late. I see adults all the time smug that they were right about never needing algebra again… algebra is just an extension of the arithmetic you should have known how to do for years before! It’s just a way of problem solving that brings together your knowledge of basic math. The fact that you aren’t sitting down with a pencil and a calculator to simplify an equation doesn’t mean you don’t use algebra.

        In the US it is socially acceptable to claim to be bad at math and never use it, without it apparently implying that you’re stupid. It makes it easy just to give up when math gets tricky and decide it’s an inborn characteristic. In contrast no one would shrug, claim to just not “get” reading, and then brag that they sure showed their first grade teacher!

        1. Kelly L.*

          We had algebra early, but they didn’t tell us that was what we were doing. Maybe one or two days a year, in elementary school, the problems would be like “8 + ___ = 12.” And of course that’s algebra! Put an “x” instead of the blank, and yep, algebra. But it was only once in a blue moon and they didn’t really explain the connection to the “official” algebra we did later.

        2. AthenaC*

          Agreed. I usually respond to the “I never use algebra – haha” comments by explaining that even if they never formally set up and algebraic equation again, you have taught your brain a new skill set about how to tackle problems and engage with reality. I fail to understand why you would neglect the opportunity to make your brain a bit more limber, but that’s just me being a nerd, I guess.

        3. MsMaryMary*

          Something happened in my mathematic education (a curriculum change, maybe? Or a teacher who skipped part of the cirriculum, or maybe ran out of time in the school year?) and I never learned about the graph part of algebra until high school. I’d solved for x before, but no one had ever mentioned that whole x – y axis thing. I was already not confident in my math skills, and playing catch up for all of algebra I made things much more difficult. I really never caught up. I did well in geometry, but barely muddled through alegbra II and pre-calc.

          1. MsMaryMary*

            Now that I think about it, I think the way math education builds on itself, and how screwed you can get if you miss or don’t understand a step, might be part of why so many people don’t like math. If you transfer schools or have a lousy teacher and never learn about the Napoleonic Wars, it doesn’t mean you’re going to have trouble in your next history class. You may not be able to decipher James Joyce at all, but there’s a good chance you’ll be fine (and maybe even make up the bad grade you got on Joyce) when you move on to reading Hemingway. But if you’re absent the week the teacher introduces fractions, or never get a firm grasp on quadratic equations, it can be very, very hard to progress to the next concept.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          I have heard DOCTORS say, “Don’t worry about math, you will never use it.” hmmm.
          Yes it does seem that people will freely state that they cannot do math but hide the fact that they cannot read. It could be because of reading campaigns from the 1960s maybe changed the tone of society? Even now there is Literacy Volunteers where people can go get help if they choose.

          I have met a few people who cannot read or can barely read. It does not come up in conversation unless necessary OR unless I have known them along time. It is much harder to fake not being able to read and society pretty much demands that you have some basic reading skills. I know I have tried to help people find help for their reading but I do not try if they are complaining about math. I suspect many people have similar responses.

      4. Lily*

        That’s an interesting point! I was born in China, but emigrated near the end of first grade. The expectation there is that all children should know their multiplication tables /before/ they start elementary school, and we were doing long division before long. (Education was an intense exercise there, and doing homework til 9pm as a first-grader is perfectly normal.)

        When I started school here, I was surprised that they were still teaching single-digit stuff (not that I didn’t enjoy the change in pace!). But since I already knew all that stuff inside out, there was this perception that I was shockingly good at maths somehow (and that carried all the way through school). I think this is also why Asian children get the reputation that they’re somehow naturally gifted at maths – in some cases that might be true, but a lot of the time we just start earlier and have been doing it for longer.

    6. Darth Brooks*

      As a society, we need to eliminate the math-brained concept. People learn differently, and a lot of teachers only know how to teach math one way. If kids aren’t great at it immediately, they’re dismissed as “not a math person” when they might just need a different approach, a little more practice, or just the knowledge that some skills take longer to develop. This is especially true for girls, who are often expected to not do well in STEM courses. We’re all capable of doing it, but we all learn differently.

      1. Apostrophina*

        This is really true. The first “B” I ever got was in math after years of straight “A”s, and after that, everyone just decided I wasn’t very good at it. It took a friend who was researching intelligence testing and SAT scores to actually start ranting at me that no, my SAT score of [whatever] meant that I was better at math than [largish] percent of people and I just needed to stop saying I was bad at math—and that whoever told me that in the first place was full of crap.

        Dude was a math major, so I guess he would know. :p

        Did I mention I was about 39 when that conversation took place? I’d just believed the party line since I was 12 and never tried to challenge myself at it. There are a couple of stats classes I wish I’d taken in college now…

        1. AnotherAlison*

          I think a lot of people are in your situation, particularly smart people. My best friend from back in school says she is bad at math. She took through Calc I in high school & was able to hang with me grades-wise. There’s no way she’s bad at math compared to the general population, but compared to people who enjoyed math (and hence chose math-related careers) or compared to herself in subjects she was better at or enjoyed more, sure, she was bad at math.

          I actually won “Outstanding Senior Math Student” in high school and “Outstanding 8th Grade Science Student”. (Kind of forgot about it until I was cleaning the basement and came across the plaques.) I think this probably had a big impact in my career choices, because I was also slightly higher on my English scores on the ACT. Having other people tell you you’re good at stuff matters. (The flip side is that I might be happier in a career that didn’t follow the math path, because I’m not thrilled with it right now, but whatever. I did it anyway & I’m 20 years past deciding my career path.)

        2. Anxa*

          This is a great point.

          I’m actually better at math than most Americans. I was doing some pretty basic math and not confident in at all in a not-very-math focused lab (molecular bio). I was faster than the grad students and post docs and there I was dismissing my ability. Imagine my surprise when people came to me to do math?

          So even though math is one of my weaknesses to me, maybe being mediocre at it is actually a strength?

          Also, I legit got a B in a math class, so I couldn’t get into the AP Calc class. Calc was very unpopular, and there was only one class for it. It interfered with a language class I was VERY interested in taking. While I’m not longer good at that language, I was really quite good with foreign language and it would have been devastating to have to quit that for a math class. So I signed up for AP, which fit in my schedule. I had a grade in the low 90s which flagged me over the summer. I was pulled out.

          I went from fall of junior year to freshman year without math because I had a B. I didn’t care if I failed AP Calc, I just wanted to take math. I had my credits. I didn’t care about grades. I knew I could get into a good college but they were all about “but you’re traaaaaanscripts! But your collllllege applications”

          To this day, I think my college experience would have been different if I hadn’t struggled with Calc and Chem (math heavy). It was a very bitter experience. I think they were worried they’d have one less ‘good college’ acceptance banner to put in the guidance counselor office if I jeopardized my transcript for an actual education.

      2. designbot*

        This was so true for me. Somehow I can take perfectly good numbers, put them into a perfectly good equation, and come out with the wrong answer. But when you give me a problem I can draw, I do great. So geometry and trig were cool with me, algebra not so much. Now everything that I was taught to do with math in high school is done with autocad or a modeling program, where I can SEE what needs to change to reach a solution.

      3. MsMaryMary*

        I think it can be extra difficult to be a good teacher when you are naturally gifted in your subject matter. Math teachers tend to be really good at math. It comes easily to them, the concepts make perfect sense, and with a little hard work and practice everyone should be able to learn the same way they did. I think this is also true for music teachers and phys ed teachers (and other subjects, of course, but math, music, and athletics seem to be the best examples). Some teachers are excellent and realize what worked for them might not work for their students, or that the way one student learns is not how the person next to them learns. But when something comes easily to you, it can be really hard to understand why someone else struggles.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Great point. My calc teacher should have been teach grad school level. He had no patience for newbies at all. I got a D for the year but aced the course because I took the questions for the final home with me. We all did. He knew he was in trouble because no one in the class could finish the final in the allotted two hours. I stayed up to 3 am but I figured all those problems out. I decided I could not do calc. For whatever reason, I took advance placement test for math for college. I had 15 minutes left and I had only answered 75% of the questions. I made pretty patterns on the bubble sheet for the remaining questions. I got the advance placement. That was when I knew I could not do this advanced math stuff. (I got the advance placement by luck not because I actually did all the work.)
          Teachers who have to work at math make much better teachers.

          1. Kristina L*

            I had 2 calc classes in college. Both teachers would give an hour’s lecture on the theory and spend no time talking about how to solve the problems. Then I went to the campus mathematics lab, and someone there would explain how to do the problems – it usually took about 5 minutes to explain.

        2. Tau*

          This was such a challenge when I was doing tutoring at uni. Trying to teach concepts that have become intuitive to the point where you can no longer quite imagine *not* understanding what they are, and have to draw on super-vague memories of that-time-before-you-got-it – when even back then you were a Very Good Student and so what helped matters click for you probably won’t be enough for your students – NOT EASY. And hard enough with early undergrad material – I have no idea how I’d even begin to teach, say, fractions.

          (I did my absolute best and got to have a few gratifying moments where I could see the metaphorical lightbulb go off over someone’s head, but overall I’m not sure how effective I was. :( Pretty happy I didn’t go on to be a teacher.)

        3. Em Too*

          I agree. I remember our advanced maths class trying to help someone’s sibling with basic algebra and all we could do is go ‘but look! it’s the same! it’s obvious!’. That seems a particularly maths thing.

      4. Christopher Tracy*

        True story – but I only passed math classes taught by women. Looking back, I think a lot of my male teachers just naturally assumed that because I was a girl, I wouldn’t get it, so they didn’t even try to help me when they saw me struggling.

      5. Library Director*

        This X 10000 squared. My sons and I have dyscalculia. I remember being in the remedial math class with a large group of students and the teacher rushing through problems. The tools I taught myself to get by (touch math) were criticized. Each year we would explain dyscalculia to our sons teachers. Not one ever attempted to change her way of teaching. I do believe we jump students into an abstract approach to math concepts. Instead of taking them through a concrete understanding to semi-concrete and then abstract understanding. I succeeded in algebra because the teacher explained almost every concept in relation to real life.

    7. ThatGirl*

      I’m not averse to math, per se, but I got as far as pre-calculus and really struggled to “get” it. I did well in advanced algebra and actually weirdly enjoyed it, but the advanced trig and precalc never quite made sense to me — I had to constantly refer back to things and struggle my way through equations.

      I do believe that some people’s brains just aren’t built for math – I don’t think that’s a moral failing. But there are different ways to teach it that can help it make more sense to people with different learning styles.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I had the same experience — I was fine with algebra, rocked the heck out of geometry and geometric-based proofs in high school, but once I got above that… oof. I could have someone take me step-by-step through a problem in precalc, but it never made sense to me why things worked the way they worked, and I could rarely replicate it.

      2. Poppy*

        I have this theory that people are generally stronger in calculus or statistics, but not both. So if you’re somebody who’s brain is geared more towards statistics, but you first learn calculus and struggle, you tend to think you’re bad math as opposed to just a specific branch of math.
        I did fine — great even — in math until I hit calculus, when things just stopped clicking for me. It was so frustrating! I really lost confidence in my math skills until I ended up in a stats class in college. Suddenly I was able to solve and even enjoy math problems.
        I think we tend to lump different branches of math in a way we would never do with, say, science, where people are a lot more comfortable saying “I’m good at biology and physics, but not as strong in chemistry”instead of “I’m bad at science”.

        1. Lily*

          That doesn’t make much sense though, since there’s a lot of calculus used in statistical concepts. What were the specifics in the different branches that clicked (or didn’t click) with you?

        2. Tau*

          I wouldn’t say calculus and statistic specifically, but I definitely agree with you (and rambled further downthread) about subarea-specific differences.

          I do think with statistics, it does tend to use a pretty different thought process from most of maths (the two aren’t actually considered the same subject in… any maths department I’ve seen…?) and so to a mathematician it can be a rather mind-bending experience. So it may not be calculus/statistics but statistics/maths that you’re picking up on as a common split.

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      When I taught remedial math, one of things I noticed was how hard it is to teach math (especially higher-level math like Algebra and beyond) to a group. With English and History (my primary teaching fields) I had a lot more flexibility with assignments; with math, I had to teach it from the book. I had a lot more success when I worked with students one-on-one, could address their questions, and was freed from the textbook.

    9. F.*

      I am female and have a B.S. in Mathematics, so I am definitely NOT math-averse! Growing up in the ’60s & ’70s, females were not encouraged to seek professions that used higher level math, though that has definitely changed for the better. I think there are two general types of math-averse people (of both genders): those who have actual learning disabilities (dyscalculia, etc.) and those who just don’t like math or were not taught properly. In the latter case, it is more of “to each their own”. I would rather do math (or just about anything else) than analyze a story in English literature, for example. That is just my preference, though.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        The fear itself can be crippling. I see the same with computers, some people are so afraid that their unwillingness to try becomes their downfall. Some people can be coaxed along, after they have a few successes it’s less tense.

    10. Meemzi*

      I was in second grade, staring down at my classwork, which was pages of rows of addition or subtraction. What second grader is interested in that? I have ADHD-I (inattentive) and it was incredibly hard to focus on that kind of work. Cue subconscious “wrong with me/stupid/can’t do it” feelings. Push that snowball down the hill and it grows until it destroys any future in liking mathematics.

    11. Folklorist*

      Honestly, numbers just *don’t* make sense to me. I’ve always been a language/visual person. In fact, I took a bookmaking course in my arts program, which involves a lot of math and precision measurements, and the rulers didn’t even work for me! I could painstakingly work out measurements and measure the papers four different times and get four different outcomes with the same number and ruler. My bookmaking teacher finally just told me, “it’s OK, some people just aren’t meant for this,” while praising my creativity and painting skills, acknowledging my hard work, etc.

      My mom and my aunt were both math/engineering majors, so it’s not even that I didn’t have strong female role models! If anything, the fact that I didn’t get math quickly and easily (like they did), meant to them that I wasn’t “meant” to do math and that I shouldn’t try as hard. I got patted on the head a lot and told, “Oh, honey, you’re so good at art and writing! Let’s just focus on that!” Now that I’m older and working for an engineering magazine, I’m wishing that they had pushed harder with different learning styles.

      Then again, when something like art and writing make so much sense to me, and I’m interested in science, I’ve found that I’m really good at asking questions and writing stories that bring science/math closer to people like me. I really enjoy my job! I just wish that this skill was considered as “difficult” and “worthy” as what I was writing about, and that my pay reflected it.

    12. Hello Felicia*

      My son has done very well on standardized math tests. 99% percentile well. My daughter, who is brilliant in many other ways,…has not. She struggles very much with math and I suspect part of it is that she is convinced she isn’t good at it, so why try? Part of it is that she doesn’t want to compared to her brother and found lacking. Part of it is definitely her relationships with her teachers. She has had really incredible teachers that made a huge difference. In those years, she did well. In the years she did not click with her teachers, she did significantly worse. I don’t think that those teachers were bad, more that they weren’t willing to politely put up with her trying to talk her way out of doing the work. OK, maybe the teacher that gave her ‘A’s on all her homework because she had an answer for each problem but never checked to see if those answers were right probably did not the right teaching style for her. She had no idea what she didn’t know how to do until she took the tests and got bad grades which was very frustrating. She has at least one more year with this teacher (small school), so we’re going to try to find a tutor for her this fall.

      I’ll be interested in seeing other responses, maybe I’ll get some better ideas of how to help her!

    13. Manders*

      My math hatred comes from a weird place: as a kid I was highly motivated by competition but bored by busy work, so I’d often place into an advanced class because a competition was involved, then struggle and fail when the coursework was a long slog through solitary homework.

      I was growing up at the very start of the educational craze for eliminating competition between students, so this was a constant struggle for me throughout school. And I’m a woman who grew up in a conservative area of the country with highly defined gender roles, so even though my family was supportive, there was extra pressure at school not to compete with other students/not to “show off” too publicly.

      I don’t regret my math hatred too much, but I do wish I had stuck with programming (although that’s a field with its own gender problems).

    14. Snargulfuss*

      For me it’s a bit of both. When I think back to my favorite, most engaged teachers in school, they were English and history teachers. I had a couple of good math teachers, but many were tuned out or just not great teachers.

      I also don’t find math logical…I know that sounds like the weirdest thing to people who get math, but my brain just works differently. Before I took the GRE a co-worker helped me brush up my math skills. When I would do problems, even if I got to the right answer, I would take the longest, most circuitous route of getting there, and then I would look at how my co-worker had solved the problem and it would be completely different (and much more straight-forward). Doing something like multiplying both sides of an algebra equation by x would never occur to me because where does the x come from? How can you just pull an x out of thin air?

      On the other hand, I loved physics because it gave math a practical application. All of those variables made sense because they were tied to real phenomena like gravity and friction.

      1. Spot*

        I really enjoyed geometry because that had real-life applications. My dad built a lot of stuff, so I could see how geometry could be used when measuring and building. But algebra? No way.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        You would have made out better with practical applications for algebra. This was the problem I had with calc. I could not understand where anyone would actually use this stuff and the teacher never explained. To me the word problems were nonsensical and absolutely useless in life. It was worse than memorizing lines of Shakespeare. At least the Shakespearean line might be meaningful at some point.

    15. Slippy*

      Can’t speak for others but I’m bad at math because I had poor math teachers through high school and college. I went to a Catholic high school that tended to focus more on the liberal arts and so teaching math fell to the teachers with the lowest seniority that drew the short straw. In college all of my math classes were big cattle-call 300+ people classes taught by grad students.

      Anecdotally I think we have fewer people who are actually bad at math and more that have never received a good education in the subject.

    16. LabTech*

      Slightly tangential, but I always found the concept of lack of math as a career limiting factor interesting, having come from the other side (B.S. in Math) with little to show for it. While I’m sure a strong quantitative background makes me look better (“sound smart”) to interviewers, it has yet to land me an interview for mathematically-oriented position. If anything, my mathematics focus seems to limit biologically-oriented chemistry positions which are at the other end of the spectrum (with the exception of biostatistics types roles, but I’d need specialization in stats at the very least to qualify for those kinds of roles).

      My main field is chemistry (B.S. there too), yet I have never gotten a call back for physical or computationally-heavy chemistry jobs I’ve applied for at my level. Part of that is not having an advanced degree, but I can’t help but feel my math B.S. hasn’t done anything for me in terms of employability.

      So, basically, mathematics has been career-limiting for me too.

      1. Jennifer*

        Well, I can’t speak for your work in general, but if you don’t have the math skills, it ruled me out of any kind of science-y type major or science-related job. Which is why I’m a clerical worker–you don’t have the range of jobs you could have tried or applied to if you can’t handle more complicated things. That’s probably what the general population is referring to when they say it limits them for a career. I like science, but I can’t do calculus for the life of me, so that means I couldn’t get a degree in anything that required it for the degree.

    17. Kelly L.*

      Disorganized, off-the-cuff thoughts on why I’m not crazy about math:

      -Too much focus on drill-type off-the-cuff rapid-fire spitting out of answers, in some contexts. I really don’t think I’m great at mental math, and the reason is that I’m not super fast at it. I’m just fine at pencil and paper math.

      -Weird math-is-superior-to-other-disciplines mindsets by some math teachers, and by my dad (who was once a math teacher, though he had quit by the time I was born). I got some degree of guff as a kid for liking the humanities better because that was soft mushy stuff. This led to me resisting math just to rebel, to some extent.

      -And then had a different kind of annoying math teacher in high school who hated girls, thus encountering the “girls can’t do math” garbage for the first time.

      -Endless. repetition. of. boring. arithmetic. In the early years, math homework tended to consist of doing 50 problems that were all basically the same problem, conceptually. It wasn’t hard, it was just dull. The first time I encountered a logic problem, I wanted to marry it. That was so much fun. I liked geometry later, when we had it, also because there was some degree of detective work involved as you tried to figure out how to go about proving the whatever. I thought matrices were kind of fun once I understood them. I could put up with the math in chemistry because I liked the chemistry part. I can still sing you the quadratic formula because I had this one awesome teacher who ingrained it in our heads by having us sing it. I think there are some teachers who maybe don’t like math themselves, and so don’t teach it in an interesting way.

      1. Anxa*

        I felt like a freak because I actually liked word problems. I loved having the context for the equations. If anything, I wish there had been more. I think one of the hard parts of math is that topic by topic, the math can be easy.

        Then on the final it’s like …wait…which way should I solve this.

        I wish there was a way to just do pattern recognition and logic puzzles all day long.

        1. Kelly L.*

          And even better–when it was word problems, they only gave you like 10 of them instead of 50! ;)

    18. Jules the First*

      I loved algebra and long division (I still do it when I’m stressed). I hated geometry and trigonometry. I loved calculus, but didn’t really get the hang of it until I did quantum chemistry the following year.

      I never thought I was bad at math (sure, I got some lousy grades, but that was because I didn’t do the homework). I also never thought you had to be special to be good at math. But I do think some of it was down to the teaching – the basics were never really explained in a way that left me feeling like I’d mastered the concept, so I could solve the problems the way I’d been shown and it would work, but if I made a misstep, I had no larger understanding to help me troubleshoot it. There was also a lot of math where I didn’t see the point of learning how to do it (graphing hyperbolae, I’m looking at you!) and unlike algebra and calculus I didn’t find it objectively fun, so I was not particularly motivated to learn it. If I’d had more maths teachers who were genuinely excited about their subject, it might have been different (my maths grades got a lot better after I spent a summer with my grandmother – who was an engineering computer before she married – and her brother – who taught imaginary numbers at a university)

      1. Anxa*

        Honestly, I wish we had taken a bit of a ‘pause’ before the graphing parabolas, etc. It was important in physics, but before that I found it just discouraging. I think just being like “Okay, now we’re changing gears” would have gone a long way in keeping me discouraged.

        So much of this comment rings true to me!

      2. Lily*

        I hated trigonometry as well when I first learnt it because I found it so dull, but I was glad I stuck through it because it builds a lot of the tools used for subjects in high school such as imaginary numbers, which I found quite fascinating.

    19. AnotherAlison*

      I am good at math. I’m an engineer. I think people are indeed bad at math.

      My husband entered college taking Algebra-for-people-who-aren’t ready-for-college-algebra. I helped him with all his homework, and he still got a D in it. My son has just spent 4 years at one of the top high schools in our state. He’s been taking some form of Algebra since 6th grade, and he is starting college taking Algebra-for-people-who-aren’t ready-for-college-algebra. My other son is entering 7th grade in some sort of common core pre-Algebra. He’s good at math. I swear, with my husband and oldest, you could explain 50 times that you subtract 4x from both sides of the equation to get all the “x” terms on one side and they just could. not. get. it. Which is fine. I don’t get a lot of things that they’re great at. My youngest son, though, you say that once, and he’s all, “Oh, okay.” He just gets it.

      All that aside, most of us are only talking about Algebra, Geometry, and Calculus when we say we’re bad at it. What bothers me is that people who may not get left brained math might be really great at the abstract real “maths” but they never get the chance because they drop out of the study it as soon as they can.

      2. Bob Barker*

        It took me a while to admit that I’m not bad at math. (Bad at arithmetic, yes! I have almost no innate number sense. But bad at math, no.) My real stopping point in the college-math track came somewhere in precalc, when I kept going, “Okay, but what’s the point.” I resented the difficulty level, because the stuff I was learning didn’t seem to apply to anything in the real world. Once I started feeling like math — calculus-oriented math, college-math — was increasingly a set of hoops you jumped through because I said so, I stopped being able to care enough to learn it well.

        I dropped down from the college-math track. I took statistics and some course that involved learning how compound interest works. I enjoyed the hell out of them! And felt like they were math that (a) made sense and (b) mattered. I have no idea to this day why those weren’t considered prestigious, college-y forms of math. Certainly, a basic (rusty) understanding of compound interest remains useful to me, these many years later.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Laughing about the 4x. I lost a lot of time saying “but why is there an x there?”
        And I lost more time saying, “But we know what x is in problem #5 because we solved for x in problem #4, so x is no longer a mystery!”
        Somehow I got over these hurdles but I don’t know how.

    20. Beezus*

      I’ve casually said that I’m bad at math before, but it’s not really true. I’m careless with arithmetic, and abstract math bores me. Real-world problems that require math to solve are an entirely different matter and I do well at those.

    21. lfi*

      for me.. it’s a language i struggle to understand. i’ve had to repeat algebra classes, only went as far as algebra II in HS, and it has always been a struggle for me (and my family). I’m much more of a visual/creative person. excel has become my friend. however, ask me for a percentage of an item on sale and i’m your gal.

    22. Jennifer*

      Probably both. I strongly suspect I have dyscalculia because I tend to just not remember numbers and I can’t do math in my head. I would have people going over everything with me for hours on end and forget it by the next day, and I usually have a pretty good memory.

      I really don’t think anyone could have helped me to love math, though. My brain is just defective. And most people aren’t exactly geared to teaching math to people who have huge problems learning it.

    23. W.Irving*

      I think you hit the nail on the head, at least in my case. Mathematical concepts were often difficult for me to understand since I never got my teachers’ A-HA! connections, and they rarely presented the material multiple ways to cater to different learning styles. I never dreamed I could consider a career in statistical or quantitative data analysis (where I am now) until my grad school stats professor made statistics accessible.

    24. Em Too*

      The way I was taught at school there was a whole lot of repetition of techniques – 20 different additions, 20 different divisions, etc, none of which had any meaning. Feels like learning to read through practising reading and writing lists of words rather than reading *books* and writing *stories*. And no, it doesn’t have to be that way. We could spend far more time asking questions like ‘how tall is that tree over there? How many leaves does it have? What’s the most calories you can buy from this shop with $5?

      Have you come across ‘The Mathematician’s lament’ by Paul Lockhart? ‘If we taught art like we do math…’

      I tend to transpose numbers too. Luckily I never have to do any sums at work; I’m a statistician.

    25. JOTeepe*

      For me, I thought for a long time I was “bad at math” after having a rough year trying to get trigonometry in high school. Meanwhile, I completely discounted the fact that I had little difficulty doing large sums by hand (and, simple enough sums in my head), and was very VERY adept at algebra.

      My issue was more that I was one of those kids who didn’t have to try all that hard in school, so when I encountered a subject (or, in this case, a sub-subject!) where it didn’t instantly click in my brain, I balked and panicked. There have been studies done that “smart kids” actually have very poor academic coping skills and study habits because they’ve never had to develop them.

      However, because of the “Girls are no good at math” rhetoric that permeates society, coupled with the fact that my mother (probably) had an (undiagnosed) learning disability in math, I just thought I was wired to be no good at it, even though the evidence was all to the contrary. In hindsight, I wish someone had pushed me harder. I had a teacher who wanted me to take AP Chemistry and I told her I “couldn’t do the math,” which she looked at me like I was nuts, because I was doing the math just fine in regular chemistry. I wish she had pushed more for me to do it, though I think she was trying to respect my decision, which I also appreciate.

      I do love my career now, so it’s moot, but perhaps I would have become an engineer, or maybe even a veterinarian, or [insert cool STEM career here] if I hadn’t been scared off of math for stupid reasons.

    26. Marillenbaum*

      I used to really love math through most of high school, but when I was in my final year, we moved and my new teacher didn’t have the “this-is-a-skill-you-can-learn” mindset of my old teacher (who would work you to the bone, but you knew that if you did the work you would master the subject). It was really discouraging to spend a year in his class, and by the time I got to uni, I was just ready to take a C in calculus and move on with my life. I’ve gotten more interested in statistics recently (thanks, FiveThirtyEight!) and I’m hoping I can nurture that interest again.

    27. Nanani*

      I blame standardized testing for a lot of this.
      It means kids get taught to implement formulas (quadratic, for example) very quickly with little-to-no time spent on the FUN PUZZLE SOLVING aspects of math.

      However, “crunch formulas quickly” is a computer’s job and not what humans with math and science jobs do.
      The misconceptions will persist until educations is overhauled with less memorisation and regurgitation.

      1. Manders*

        You’re right, that’s a huge part of it. Especially when teachers don’t bother to break down the concepts they’re supposed to be explaining, all kids see is that they’re doing all this work by hand when they know there’s a faster way to get it done, and they don’t understand why they’re doing it.

    28. C Average*

      I have a diagnosed learning disability (nonverbal learning disorder) but wasn’t diagnosed until my late thirties. My early experiences with math were very, very frustrating. (It’s important that I distinguish arithmetic from math. I was and remain very good at arithmetic. It’s when we got to the material that involved applying formulas, solving for unknowns, and that sort of thing that I found myself unable to comprehend the material.)

      The learning experience itself was frustrating because even though I did the exercises and paid attention in class, I just simply didn’t GET it. Sometimes, in the moment the teacher was explaining something, I’d get a little flash of comprehension, but I could never hang onto it once I walked out of class, so I’d often have the experience of starting a homework assignment feeling confident and then quickly realizing I didn’t understand the material at all. And my lack of understanding was so profound that I didn’t even have the vocabulary to seek help. My teachers were conscientious and capable, but when I’d miserably complain that “I just don’t GET it,” they’d press me for information about which part I didn’t get, and I couldn’t tell them. It felt absolutely insurmountable.

      And then my frustration was compounded by the dismissive way everyone treated my inability to wrap my head around the material. My parents and teachers told me I needed to try harder, I was plenty smart enough to do my assignments, I should be doing better, I was lazy, etc.

      After a time I DID stop trying, because I found that whether I tried my best or did the bare minimum, I wound up with Cs. I preferred to take my Cs without the side of stress and anxiety. I actually remember the exact day I decided to stop trying. It was in Algebra II, when we began learning about imaginary numbers. I just couldn’t wrap my head around the square root of negative one. I had expended all of my math-related willing suspension of disbelief. Math and I were done.

      After my diagnosis, I thought maybe a “knowledge is power” mindset would make a difference. I entered an MBA program knowing I’d have to take a statistics class. I figured with lots of study and the help of a good tutor who broke things down for me, maybe I could do it. I couldn’t.

      I can’t speak for other people, but I’m utterly convinced that my math-related limitations are real and probably insurmountable.

    29. matcha123*

      When I started elementary school, I loved math. Everything really clicked, and I don’t know…it was good. But the next year I had a teacher that battled me over everything. And the further I progressed in school the less I was able to grasp math. Based on your writing, I assume you’re in the UK? I don’t know if you had word problems, but when I was in elementary school we had such stupid word problems that were supposed to be based on “real life” situations.
      ex: Cashews are $3/lb, peanuts are $2/lb and sunflower seeds are $3.50/lb. You want to buy 2lbs of cashews, 0.4lbs of peanuts and 1.5lbs of sunflower seeds. How much money do you need to ask your parent for?

      I mean. When I was in elementary school, I’d buy nuts from the bulk section and there was a scale that printed the weights with the adjusted prices. And why would I ever buy such a strange pairing??

      From there, it just got worse. I’d follow the example formula in the book and get the wrong answer. I’d work through problems with the teacher and I’d always here “why are you doing this?!” (I thought that’s what I was supposed to do!) or “don’t use your fingers!” It seemed that no matter what I did, I was wrong. Now, I can’t do simple math without using my fingers and double-checking on a calculator. Every problem I ever did was wrong.

      Heck, I broke down crying the other day while working on some stuff on Codeacademy that asked you to solve a math problem. Every answer I put in was wrong and I got frustrated thinking about math in code, because I like html/css/etc. and I don’t want it ruined by math!

      And…if there was a formula or trick that people used, they didn’t teach it to me. I never thought that math was for boys or anything like that, either. I just never knew where to start. Whenever I try to read a math book, like the GRE, I can’t understand why this number is being multiplied or not. It just doesn’t make sense. I can’t visualise the problem and answer in the way that I can with the written word.

      1. LabTech*

        Now, I can’t do simple math without using my fingers and double-checking on a calculator

        If it makes you feel any better, I still secretly use my fingers for simple calculations, and consider myself to be good at math. I used to be ashamed of it until I met my favorite math professor, a successful number theory researcher who didn’t know 6 x 7 off the top of his head!

        1. Tau*

          For the record, a running joke among STEM types basically goes “for the love of god, don’t ask the mathematicians to do basic arithmetic EVER, everyone knows they can’t count.” There’s actually a lot of truth to the joke – it certainly keeps getting reinvented in independent groups. Mental arithmetic just doesn’t actually have anything to do with mathematics as an academic subject, which is all about abstracting away the details and discovering basic facts about how concepts interact. And that bit draws a lot of people who are good at the abstract logical thinking side of things but can and will add up one and one to get 3 given the first opportunity, while the ones who were good at mental math may be put off by the fact that the skills that got them through early years are now entirely irrelevant.

          I’d say that for mathematicians, being bad at arithmetic can even act as a weird sort of badge of honour. So you’re in good company! :)

    30. addlady*

      I thought I didn’t like math because I mix up numbers like some of the other commenters (could it be an LD? Who knows?) and I also struggle with basic calculations in my head because of my adhd working memory.
      These things helped:

      1. I hate researching and writing large papers, so English went out the window.
      2. When I got to college, there were many women math majors to encourage me.
      3. Even though I was an econ major, I had to take calculus courses. I did better than I had thought I would on those first calc courses. Also, because of that, my math major friends assumed I was also a math major, and would tell me to take this or that math course. I would agree, because why not? Peer pressure ftw.
      4. Because I struggled early on with working memory, I developed an early habit of writing every single step down. This is absolutely necessary when you get into the more complex stuff, so I gained a serious advantage over those who had sailed by by just doing it in their head. It also helped me get into programming later on.

      Honestly, the last bit was the most important, because if I hadn’t struggled early on, I would have been shocked by the struggle later and assumed that I was failing.

      1. Anxa*

        I have a tough time remember the numbers I’m working with.

        So I am SLOOOW.

        I would have to look at a simple polynomial like 5 times while I transcribed it. It’s such a minor thing, but I loved doing math out of a workbook. I hated copying problems from textbooks to paper.

    31. Ande2923*

      For me, I think the difficulty came in a combination of A) not “getting” the concept out of the gate and getting more and more behind from there, and B) being placed in more advanced classes than I feel I should have been assigned to in elementary school, based on my good performance in other subjects. (Thus exacerbating problem “a”.) It’s something I really struggled with, and in some ways still do, from a self-esteem angle. Like, why is this so easy for everyone else and not me? (Or so it seemed.)

      Does anyone have suggestions for how to improve math competency as an adult, short of re-enrolling in 4th grade? Though it’s obviously a common complaint, so often arriving at that “I hate math” point is like the end of the road. Would love to see if I can improve my skills from here, but just don’t know where to start.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I’d start at the book store and see if anything appeals to you. My husband was a very smart man. He could explain nuclear science to you. He could not add two plus two and get safely to four. When the mortgage person said, “your monthly payment will be x dollars” his response was “I don’t understand.” I was not sure what there was to understand. We went to the book store to look for something helpful. He spent hours look at the math books. One by one he ruled out each book there. Moral of the story is you will either find something that fits you or you will figure out that you know more than you think. So spend some time looking through and see if you can spot something that you want to study closer.

        And it’s not easier for some people. I put in incredibly long hours just to get a C. Then I found a teacher who could actually teach the subject and I zoomed up to a B. (All my friends got A’s. I never said anything so people assumed I was doing as well as those I hung out with.) I still put in long hours and it involved a lot of crying, probably from exhaustion. The teacher after that good teacher, hated women, hated teaching, came to class stoned, and I got a D there.

    32. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      I always thought/said I was “bad” at math. Turns out, I am just not the type of person who can do it in her head and I’ve made peace with that. But OMG, give me an excel spreadsheet and I will math anything every which-way for you.

    33. Felicia*

      Im not actually bad at math, it just didnt come as easily for me as English or history, it was the only subject I had to try hard on… i still did relatively well I just didnt like how hard I had to work at it. I also had a series of math teachers who didnt know how to teach math to people that didnt just quickly and naturally understand it. I think a lot of math teachers just naturally grasp mathematical topics and dont know how to teach people who dont have the natural grasp they did.

      I was also just really good at language arts, so in comparison, being just ok at math was being bad at it in comparison. I do think, in general, math is not taught very well unless youre the type of person who naturally gets it, and its not taught in a way that is very applicable to most people.

      I also do the thing where i get numbers mixed up in my head, which makes taking down phone numbers or credit card numbers hard for me, and which doesnt have much to do with math.

      After I graduated, there was a course called math for every day life, and I wish I had a chance to take it.

    34. Liane*

      Not bad at mathematics, I just took a longer time than many to “get” algebra. Eighth grade, I was moved back to pre-algebra to keep me from failing a math course. Next year, 9th, I was pulling Bs and As. When I told my teacher that year that it was my second try, she found it hard to believe because in her experience, there was seldom that much improvement. I did have problems with calculus and trigonometry. Those are due mostly to me–yes, the gal with a BS in a science, Zoology–having a similar view on logic to Star Trek’s Dr. McCoy. The one part of calc I found easy was when it involved trig–because it was *all words*!

      As for the idea that women are not as good at math, here’s a couple fun facts:
      **Way back in the 1950s (when supposedly “everyone” agreed womenfolks shouldn’t work outside the home) Robert Heinlein wrote the classic military science fiction novel “Starship Troopers.” The book’s explanation for why most of the starship pilots were women? Women are way better at the complex mathematics!
      *Actress Danica McKellar went on to get a PhD in Math (co-wrote the Chayes-McKellar-Winn Theorem) and has written several math books to help middle school girls. The covers look like the covers of teen magazines like Seventeen–fashion shots of Ms. McKellar along with blurbs like “Negative numbers, Inequalities, Exponents and more!” “Are You Bold or Shy? Take This Quiz!” and “20 Ways to Beat Stress.” The inside mixes the promised quizzes, tips and so on with lessons on advanced arithmetic, pre-algebra or algebra. I think the quizzes and tips used the math concepts as well. Can you tell I bought my daughter all of these when she was in middle school? (For the record, she is better than I at math, just doesn’t like it.) Yes they are worth the price!
      Titles: “Math Doesn’t Suck: How to Survive Middle Math without Going Crazy or Breaking a Nail”
      “Kiss My Math: Showing Pre-Algebra Who’s Boss”
      & “Hot X: Algebra Exposed!”

    35. Ever and Anon*

      An interesting point, and I think there are several pieces to it.

      1) If, like in the US, you did fractions through 8th grade, learning abstractions, proofs, variables, functions, etc in 9th grade will be hard for anyone.

      2) kids don’t practice hundreds of problems to get basics down. (Just like they no longer do grammar drillsin US elementary schools, at least in some states – and it shows.) It’s really hard to get factoring and stuff if you never learned to add fractions. It’s doubly hard to do calculus if you have trouble with sketching graphs and such.

      3) higher level math – the abstract, problem-solving and proof aspect – is, in fact, hard, so it makes sense that people could be bad at it.

    36. Aurion*

      I’m not sure if I’m truly bad at math or not, but I usually say I am.

      I found most high school math a breeze. Trig, algebra, etc…straight As through all of it. My first B was in calculus, though I feel like I could’ve gotten that A if I spent more time on homework.

      Come university differential calculus, doing the exact same thing as my calculus class in high school (same textbook, even)…nearly flunked the course. I barely scraped a pass in that class and every math class thereafter, as well as every strongly-math-related science class (quantum chemistry, physical chemistry) . I outright flunked two.

      Abstract and theoretical mathematical concepts don’t make sense to me intuitively, so I’ve long given up on that. I don’t have much in the way of spatial processing and I usually need to long-hand write out all the equations/drawings for me to know how to apply the reasoning/formulae (even for things I aced, like algebra, chemistry, etc.) Once I entered university where the pace of classes was much faster, I fell behind (I also wasn’t the greatest at time management). I probably wouldn’t have ever intuitively understood the concepts for all theory/abstract math-y subjects (calculus, quantum chemistry, etc), but I probably could’ve done better at the classes if I practiced my homework more. It’s been years since undergrad and I still occasionally get nightmares about it. But other sciences like chemistry did make sense to me–I could work out how to solve problems years after I last touched upon the subject.

      The quality of teacher also helps (my high school calculus teacher was amazing and truly loved his subject; it showed. My math teachers after him were far less passionate about teaching), but I think it really came down to self-discipline, which I had none of back then.

    37. Eugenie*

      This whole thread is fascinating. I always scored relatively highly on the math sections of standardized tests when I was a kid and got placed on the advanced track in Junior High. Then I just did not get Algebra at all and moved back down to regular math for High School. Taking Algebra I again I LOVED it, soared through that and Algebra II, Geometry was my absolute favorite (loved the logic of solving proofs, I could usually do them instantly in my head while my classmates just kind of stared at me like I’d given the answer in a foreign language).

      I totally bombed Trig and Calc though, I think it had to do with what some other commenters have mentioned about not understanding WHY problems have to be solved in certain ways. Took physics in college and that was great, it had practical uses for all that math I took in HS! I think it really helps to know the context behind a discipline – I still couldn’t tell you what you use calculus for in real life!

      Also, Dad was a physicist, both his brothers were engineers, Mom was an art historian and my older sister was very artistic from an early age. There may have been some gendering because of this family dynamic, but I ended up studying history and now manage a large department at a museum – I let excel do all the arithmetic for me, but figuring out the logic behind those spreadsheets is actually kind of enjoyable now. There are definitely times I wish I’d gotten more into the advanced concepts and stuck with it, I think I would have really enjoyed a career focused on that kind of logical reasoning skill.

    38. Elsie_D*

      I’m not necessarily “bad” at math, but I’ve never found it engaging. I don’t know if it’s the subject, or the way it’s taught.

      Additionally, as I got into more advanced math in high school and beyond, there were less and less girls in the classes. (There were 3 girls in my HS calculus class, out of about 20 students- and 2 of the girls, including me, dropped the course.) I wasn’t interested in trying to fit in in a boys’ club, and I often got talked down to by other students for not “getting it” right away, so I stopped trying.

    39. NJ Anon*

      I always loved math. I think people just throw up a wall and say they can’t do it because it’s too hard or they don’t want to be bothered. In my next life I want to teach freshman algebra. I get some weird looks with that statement!

    40. animaniactoo*

      One of my high school teachers SUCKED at teaching math. I looked up his stats. I came out of his class into an accelerated class, but going through his class is what made me be determined to be a math teacher. Life has taken me in a different direction, but maybe I’ll get back to it someday. When I challenged why so many of my classmates had dropped to the extended learning track after his term, he told me it was a hard portion of the course. Well yeah, it kind of was. But other teachers had 1/3 drop into extended. He had 3/4. That was him.

      My youngest son was the first student through a revamped math program and it was awful. I was talking to the teacher and daily reviewing what he was getting (it was an on-line course) at her request to try and get some of the worst stuff fixed as fast as possible. Ever since that course, he has been convinced that he can’t maths. And I have to keep addressing that yes he can, he just gets frustrated by it and loses it because he dislikes it so much after that. It’s fine to not like it – but when he’s working it regularly, he absolutely can do it, and he was fine before that course.

      1. Em*

        x1000 on the role of teachers. In grad school I had a couple of extremely bad stats profs (confusing explanations, and an attitude that if it all wasn’t obvious to you, you must be an idiot). I spent the first couple of years convinced I was an idiot and nearly quit my program. Thanks to books and classes in other departments with teachers who cared about teaching I *did* eventually learn it…well enough that I now have a job doing statistical modeling and serving as a technical resource for other analysts. I also have a huge administration for those who can explain complex math is not easy, but I think that those who can teach it understand it way better than those who just “know” it but can’t explain it to anyone.

        I’m also retroactively angry at those early professors…the problem really was them, and the fact that they were too lazy/important to put effort into teaching.

    41. Jaguar*

      Math was always my best subject and something I just “got,” so I’m not intended audience. But I did tutor some of the worst-performing math students in high-school, so I have experience with the learning process of people on the other end of it. I think there’s pretty clearly a spectrum of people who are mathematically capable.

      I think the bigger problem is that, culturally, we value mathematics (and general STEM subjects) as valuable and the test of intelligence, so doing poorly in them or not being able to grasp the concepts is incredibly frightening and frustrating to people. The subtext from the point we start school, the blatant cultural subtext (and, often, outright plainly stated text) is that math and science are important while arts and humanities are along for the ride. It’s why someone who can look at something and discover the artistic merit in it (a trait I’m astonished by, admire, have tried to cultivate in myself, and am intensely jealous of others for having) but can’t do math isn’t seen as intelligent while someone who is strong in math but has no artistic sensibilities (and often shuns the whole idea) is seen as brilliant. Kids of all age can pick up on that cultural narrative. It’s not a particularly well kept secret, and even the attempts to work against it are half-hearted lip-service that’s easily seen through. So you can fail in art class and nobody thinks less of you for it and it doesn’t affect your future prospects but failing in math often pigeonholes you into lower prospects and being less intelligent. As a result, people that aren’t mathematically oriented get questions about “are people really bad at math?” like this while people that aren’t artistically oriented never do. Who cares if people aren’t artistic? Rarely is anyone ever asking the question, “for people who are averse to arts: was it the content or the method of teaching?” Nobody even thinks about it. It’s not seen as a personal failing the way not being good at math is.

      1. matcha123*

        If I may ask, I’ve always been pretty bad at math and I remember breaking down and crying when a friend offered to help me in middle school. I assume people came to you because they wanted to learn, so what kinds of trends did you see?
        Any tips to help understand concepts/formulas better?

        1. Jaguar*

          I had a lot of people break down like that when I was tutoring them. It always made me feel incredibly awful and sympathetic. I’m sorry you’ve had to go through that.

          They didn’t really come to me so much as I was assigned to work with them because I was willing to do it.

          Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of advice, because what worked for one person was often different than what worked for another person, so I would typically just try different approaches until I figured out what worked for a person. One piece of advise, though, is to get out of studying it in an intense environment like a classroom. In that situation, you’re under a time limit, you’re implicitly competing against other students, and there are limited one-on-one resources. If you can find a personal tutor that can address all your questions as they come up and as they come up, that will be a huge benefit. As well, resources like Khan Academy can be very helpful as you get the benefit of an excellent instructor who patiently and thoroughly explains the concepts as well as being able to go back to review as needed, re-take the lecture as necessary, etc. (it also has a really nice coursework system, although I haven’t tried it in a few years now).

          Also, and this usually isn’t a problem for struggling students, but try to keep ego out of it. Recognise the difference between kind-of understanding a concept and fully understanding it and continue working at it until you fully get it.

    42. Pearl*

      If I have time and the ability to double-check my work with something that is not my brain (paper or calculator), I can do basic math. If I have to do it in my head, I can’t. I think part of it is being unable to “hold” the numbers in my head long enough to finish calculating. Part of it is not being confident – in school I was definitely drilled not to trust myself because I made too many mistakes when called on and had to immediately have the answer to a new problem. I remember being satisfied when I was doing statistics homework at night, alone, at my own pace. I also made a 5 (out of 5) on the AP Stat exam, which stunned me.

      But school didn’t care because what they wanted was that spontaneous reaction that I just couldn’t always do. If I couldn’t do that, then I was bad at math. So now I say I’m bad at math because otherwise people give me looks for wanting to double-check myself or use a calculator.

      I also can’t spell out loud. I tend to either go very slow, air-write, or physically write it down as I’m saying it. I feel like there’s some ‘brain to mouth’ speedway connection I’m missing. When that’s what 12+ years of schooling/culture demands in order to rule you “good at math,” you just say you’re bad at math instead.

    43. Elizabeth West*

      I do have a rather severe LD in math, but I wish I didn’t. I would have loved to become a scientist and you can’t do that without math. Archaeology, or something with animals. :)

    44. super anon*

      i was never good at math in school and now as an adult i can do the bare minimum of basic math to get by, and nothing else.

      when i think back to math in school all i can remember is frustration and feeling really stupid when i didn’t understand it. i rarely had that moment of “a ha! i get it!” when i was learning it in school. i remember struggling with those mental math worksheets in elementary, and never being quite able to memorize my multiplication tables either. i remember failing the probability units in math in high school, which were considered to be the “easy” sections. math is associated in my memory with a lot of sadness, frustration, confusion, and ultimately me feeling incredibly stupid because i was never able to understand something everyone else seemed to get so easily.

      i find that when i’m faced with numbers it’s incredibly confusing for me and it doesn’t make sense. i had to take econ for my degree and the first teacher i had was heavily math focused. he would use equations to explain concepts and i couldn’t wrap my head around it. i had to drop the class late because i knew i was going to fail. the second teacher i took it with was more concept based and i pass easily, because it didn’t rely on equations and numbers. i can understand concepts when they are taught to me, but as soon as numbers show up, it’s game over. i

      as an adult i feel ashamed of not understanding math and numbers and essentially being illiterate in an important subject, but i also find the idea of having to go back and start learning math from middle school humiliating and scary. i also get embarrassed when people comment on my inability to do math and how slow i am at picking up concepts and understanding. when my boyfriend (who is great at math) tries to explain things to me and i don’t understand he gets frustrated with how slow i am and it makes me upset so i give up. i’ve had friends and bosses laugh at me for using an online percentage calculator to figure out percentages, because i don’t know how to do that kind of math when the numbers aren’t out of 100.

      i can’t think of what would help me to give it another go – i suppose i would need a patient teacher who wouldn’t make me feel humiliated and stupid when they have to explain things in 50 different ways to get me to understand, but even then i think my negative feelings surrounding the subject as well as the sheer amount of learning i would need to do hold me back from ever trying to learn it again.

    45. Mander*

      There are probably many different answers. For me, I’m not afraid of math, but I do have an unfortunate tendency to get simple things wrong and for some reason I’ve never been able to remember the multiplication tables, for instance. I still did relatively advanced math classes in high school (trigonometry, pre-calculus, etc) and sometimes I try out math for fun but I’m just not naturally all that fluent in it.

    46. NoWhiteFlag*

      I loved math as a kid. In fact, people often think that I am good at math because I can do a lot of it in my head. From a standardized testing perspective, I am quite good. However, I failed geometry in high school and had a very difficult time with calculus and statistics in college.

      I think my dislike/avoidance of math stems from the fact that I could never get a decent answer on what I was doing wrong in math class. I would have the right answer but my work was always wrong and no one could explain what I needed to correct to get the work right. If I can’t correct the problem, it seemed pointless to continue. Other times, they would just tell me not to worry about it as “women aren’t good at math”. Of course, this is the wrong thing to say to a person with a minor in math. So I switched my majors from Computer Information Science/Accounting to Business Computer Science/English. I completed my minor in math. I make my living as a programmer specializing in financial systems.

      I would be willing to try math again but not in an academic setting.

    47. Claire (Scotland)*

      I think some people aren’t good at maths, and some people weren’t taught it well, and some people aren’t good and weren’t taught it well.

      I was put off maths by everything you mention. I hated it. It didn’t make sense to me. I remember two of my high school maths teachers who had completely different approaches and personalities. One was terrifying and stern and scary, the other was calm and kind and relaxed. Neither of them could make me understand the subject. I just don’t understand the concepts. And while I could work intensely on something simple until I could do the examples given, I could NOT retain that learning at all – an hour later I’d have forgotten everything. Maths homework was a nightmare – no matter how much I tried, I never understood what I was supposed to be doing.

      I could do Physics! I remain bitter about the fact that my guidance teacher (Mr Brown, Biology) made me drop Sixth Year Studies Physics (the most advanced course in high school) to concentrate on my retake of Higher Maths. I was getting a solid B in CSYS Physics, and failed the Maths retake. Maths remains the only subject I have failed an exam in. Twice.

      1. on the subject of mathematics...*

        That’s ironic, physics was the only science subject that I enjoyed since a of it relied on maths and less memorising terminology etc (couldn’t stand biology at all).

    48. Anxa*

      Oh wow!

      I think for me, math was one of the first subjects I struggled with. Looking back, it was probably more of a discipline issue. I’m not trying to sound snobby, but I was considered the smart kid in class. But buy middle school a lot of other students started outpacing me (once school shifted from learning and knowledge to organization and discipline). Anyway, I don’t think I did homework enough to practice it.

      Also, I think my teachers were a little bit disappoint in me because of that, but instead of realizing it could be a problem with skills and not motivation, I got reamed out a lot for it (they probably just wanted what was best for me). I remember getting an 114 (there was 20 extra credit points that were legit hard) in middle school and my mom getting a phone call about my performance. I mean, they were right to be concerned, but I felt like I could never be good enough. Even my mom was like, “well, how bad did she do on the test?”

      More than that, though, I’m a quick thinker but a poor follower. I’m slow to process direct information and steps and processes, but I’m quick to synthesize the information. So I coudn’t follow along well. In other subjects, this was less of an issue, because a lot of the content was stuff you could have known already from reading or being really observant (which I was good at).

      Also, often you have math teachers, not math scholars teaching. I had some great math teachers, but I felt like they couldn’t answer my questions. Like, I had difficulty understanding why you couldn’t divide by zero. Instead of a long discussion about the philosophy of one and zero, you have to just take that at face value until maybe middle school at the earliest. I also feel like I never fully understood HOW we knew what we know about math.

      And I do have a lot of subtle symptoms of discalculia. I have issues with my 7s and 4s. I’m afraid that in a job I could make a huge mistake one day by switching them. The thing is, rationally, ANY job could involve that kind stuff. I went into biology instead of a more math heavy discipline, but that’s silly because at least a fifth of the curriculum was still math heavy (Chen, physics, calc). Some of those symptoms may be ADHD related if I have that, as there’s a good amount of overlap. Also, I only have some symptoms. I’m really good with maps and train schedules and clocks (but maybe bc I was reliant on them to succeed)

      Also, I like stats, but I took it twice still don’t really get it. One class I took when I was in a bad phase of my life academically. Another time I felt like I was just learning how to use one specifics software tied to a textbook publisher…not even matlab or excel or statsx or R anything transferable and a graphing calculator.

      I think I just really would have liked a more discussion-based math education and it was also more problem solving based.

      I

    49. Ragnelle*

      I’m not “bad at math”–I always made A’s in my classes, partly because I was lucky enough to have good to great math teachers throughout school. In fact, I even outscored my physicist husband on the math portion of the GRE (I put it down to being nervous about it and over-studying). But, I don’t really enjoy it. I feel like it takes me too long to work out the logical framework of the problems and I suffer from must-show-all-steps syndrome. We had to show every step in school, so now I feel like it’s wrong if I don’t. I do enjoy basic statistics, especially because I’m starting to use it more in my job (and because I do love Excel…I think it’s a logic thing, not a math thing).

      But everyone has their strengths. I have an M.A. in English and use my language, rhetoric, and communication skills every day. That feeling you describe about sitting down with a problem and being able to find creative solutions–I get that almost every time I sit down to write something. It just “clicks” for me. You know your content, your audience, your goals, and you craft something that meets those needs. Sometimes I get frustrated at my coworkers who “hate writing,” but I have to remember that what comes easily or naturally to me doesn’t to others. I taught freshman composition for a while, and I was often astounded at how poorly my students were prepared for college-level writing. Like you with math, I wish people would work harder on writing and communication skills. Perhaps it’s an overall problem with our education system.

      My parents really wanted me to be an engineer or a doctor. Heck, when I get my paychecks, I wish I was an engineer or a doctor. But I don’t think I’m really suited to a STEM career, and that’s okay. I wish people wouldn’t devalue the inherent skills offered by the humanities in their push for more and better STEM education (and I say this as someone who promotes STEM learning as part of my job).

    50. nonegiven*

      My husband told me about high school when he was in algebra 2. There were kids in the class who had taken some special course of study over the summer and were already familiar with the work so the whole class skipped several chapters in the book and he was completely lost. I remember that class, we had no special students and no summer studies, we skipped several chapters, too. The concepts were different than the earlier chapters but it really wasn’t like we had skipped something we needed. He just got blocked because he felt like he had been cheated. Every algebra 2 class skipped those same chapters.

    51. Tau*

      *puts on maths PhD hat*

      …as you can probably guess, I don’t fall into the “averse to maths” camp. :)

      Anyway, I totally agree with what you’re saying here and I think it’s sad maths has such a bad rep. I also think that the way it’s taught in schools isn’t in any way conducive to understanding what the subject is actually about – a bit as if music classes consisted solely of practicing scales and writing out chords for different keys, without once ever listening to any music. I was good at maths throughout school (this was helped by being from a maths/science academic family where I was sort of expected to be good at maths, which worked out pretty well for me because I was and it negated any “girls aren’t good at maths” my environment tried to push on me)… but I’d say the first time I encountered anything I’d now consider actual mathematics, which so happens to coincide with the first time I went “oh my god, this is freaking cool!”, was in my twelfth grade AP-equivalent course. (Epsilon-N definition of a limit, represent.) Which is… really sad, because there’s a lot of cool maths out there, and you could totally teach some of it to kids. In fact, you could totally teach some of the maths we already teach to kids using cool maths. I might link an exhibit in another comment.

      I also think the mathematical mind BS has a lot to answer for, honestly, because it encourages people to think of mathematical talent as innate and rare, meaning the first time they struggle = guess you don’t have that spark, then! Which is absolutely not how it works, puts a lot of people off the subject, and is sort of weirdly insulting to actual mathematicians because it discounts the hard work they had to put in to get where they are. (I seriously cannot count the number of times I told people I was doing a maths PhD and they basically went “oh, wow, you must be some kind of genius.” It’s not really a helpful way to approach it – if that’s genuinely what I’d thought you needed to do a maths PhD I would have dropped out the first time I went to a seminar where the only words I understood were “and” and “the”.)

      And – yeah, not everyone is going to be good at maths, because some people are bad at some things. (Me and sports. Good god.) But there are considerations here:
      – a lot of the reasons people give are reasons for being bad at arithmetic, not maths. E.g. someone mentioned hating rote memorisation upthread. Which, yeah, I totally get that, I really dislike having to memorise meaningless stuff. Which is actually why I went into maths in the first place. Memorisation needed minimal, everything is about developing an understanding of the concepts at play and how they interact.
      – similarly, I’m not even sure how good of a predictor being good at arithmetic IS for how good you’ll be at maths. I am really not joking when I say that among science types, mathematicians are notorious for being absolutely terrible at basic arithmetic. It’s a running joke in pretty much every STEM-heavy area I’ve ever seen. And I have met NUMEROUS mathematicians who embody the stereotype. I’d say me being reasonably good at mental arithmetic actually made me rare.
      – as someone very astutely pointed out upthread, there isn’t even one single kind of “good at maths”. I do best in (abstract) algebra, I’m also pretty good at number theory. Geometry/topology… I’m okay, but I’m hampered by the fact that I’m not a particularly visual thinker. (That’s actually a bonus for algebra, as it means I have an easier time reasoning about very very very abstract concepts without trying to force them into visual depictions.) Things get steadily worse the more applied we get. I literally had to learn differential equations three different times before the concept made any kind of sense to me, and I’m still pretty wobbly with them. Calculus worked okay, and complex analysis was GREAT, but my multi-variable calculus course was downright painful. I have a love-hate relationship with statistics, which is always really mindbending for me. Of course, you have to view these statements in the context that these are university-level courses for the most part and so I’m probably still pretty good overall, but the point stands – there are aspects of maths I’m better at and that suit how I think better and aspects where I’m worse.

      In general, I feel like a decent predictor of how much you’ll like university-level maths is NOT how much you like elementary/early-high-school level maths, but how much you like logical puzzles. Those puzzles you get a la “Cersei rode the brown horse, the person riding the white horse came before the one wearing a purple hat, Ned Stark’s wife did not come first, [a bunch more facts] – who won the race?”… I DEVOURED those as a kid. I loved the puzzle-solving aspect to it. There were other things (a love of abstraction) but that puzzle-solving aspects was one of the big parts of what drew me to maths.

      …I could actually go on about this for ages (historical views of mathematics! When dabbling in maths was considered fashionable!) but I appear to have written a novel so I’ll stop here.

  18. SlowGoings*

    I’m dealing with a bit of something at work. Due to a previous job, I’ve got a health issue that interferes with my current job. I had been getting medications from my doctor to help but those ended up with some serious side effects that I am still dealing with despite not having had them in months. This leads me to call out sick more than either I or my manager would want. It isn’t seriously impacting work but work would prefer to have me when I am scheduled.

    My last performance review was actually really good a few months ago with the only thing my manager was concerned about was the amount of sick time I am using. Too be honest I am not happy about it either and I have been seeing a doctor regularly about it. The problem is things are just not getting better fast. They are incrementally getting better but I’m pretty sure that is not what my manager is seeing since I am still using sick time from time to time.

    I’m not happy about it either since any time I call out sick I am basically losing money since I am hourly and don’t get paid sick time but I also know the problem will get worse if I ignore it to work through it. Is there any way to convey to my manager that I am working on the problem of using too much sick time beyond talking about seeing my doctor regularly? I can’t talk about the minor improvements I have seen in my health issues without feeling like I am lying when I end up using sick time again. They are also very slowly improving the work environment but have done so more in response to people ending up with more serious stress injuries then mine.

      1. SlowGoings*

        I’m in Canada and I probably could under whatever the Canadian equivalent is but I really can’t afford to.

        1. fposte*

          Maybe there really isn’t a Canadian equivalent, but FMLA isn’t an “afford to” thing. You invoke it to protect your job when you have health problems, and you don’t have to take a full leave on it–you can take intermittent leave, which is what it sounds like you’re doing.

          Maybe another Canadian can shed some light on possibilities here, especially if you state your province.

          1. SlowGoings*

            Newfoundland. I really don’t see it as intermittent leave though given it is only a day at a time and I can go two to three weeks with no problems at all.

            1. SlowGoings*

              Also I am in a union that is pretty good about these things so my job is already protected.

              1. fposte*

                Then it sounds like you’re okay. (But taking a day off every few weeks is absolutely intermittent leave. I filed it for having to leave earlier in the afternoons the first weeks back from surgery. It just means any non-consecutive absence for the medical condition.)

              2. Kalli*

                Can’t you ask your union rep or shop steward to help you have the conversation, or point you towards helpful resources?

    2. Jules the First*

      I know how hard it is to have conditions that don’t respond as expected to the drugs (I was once given an anti-migraine med which, in me, has the opposite effect – instead of shortening them, it tripled the duration!)

      If you’re worried about it, I would say tell your manager that you know you’re using more sick time that she’d like (and that you’re using more sick time than you’d like to) but that you and your doctor are still working on a complete solution. You can even say that although your sick days aren’t yet getting less frequent, they are less debilitating and you’re hopeful that your treatment is moving in the right direction.

      For example, I have a chronic digestive disorder which no one has actually managed to diagnose; the meds which work make me super bitchy and enormous, so it’s not in my best interests to take them. It took eight years to get my related sick days down from three per month to one or two a year, and there were definitely years where it didn’t budge.

      Can you adjust your schedule to work around the worst days/times? Work from home/in a different location part time?

      1. SlowGoings*

        I did ask for and get a reduction in hours in the length of my shift but unfortunately that’s about all I can do for accommodations. I’m working retail so work from home isn’t an option and there isn’t a consistent period where the problem flares up. I really wish there was to be honest because that would be so much easier to deal with then hoping from day to day that there won’t be a problem.

    3. Blue Dog*

      Why can’t you just explain it to your manager just like you’ve explained it to us? You did a good job explaining it and I would think a reasonable manager would be glad to know you’re not happy about the amount of sick leave you’re having to take and that you’re doing what you can to improve your health.

      1. SlowGoings*

        I’ve tried but to be honest she isn’t very good at feedback and often I am working when she isn’t so I don’t know how she is taking things right now. I guess I just feel frustrated by the whole situation and how slow things are getting better. It is good though that I can explain the whole situation clearly though, I was a bit worried it sounded like a mess.

    4. animaniactoo*

      “I am not happy with the amount of time I need to be out either. Partly because I lose money and partly because those days are miserable for me physically. There is improvement, but it’s slow and it’s incremental, so while I am improving and I can see it, I can understand how it might not look like that while I am still taking sick days.”

      Can you point to fewer sick days being taken? Longer gaps between them? Or just explain things like the severity of your flare-ups is reducing, but unfortunately hasn’t reduced enough to be able to work while you’re having them? But progress points towards a day when that will be possible?

      1. SlowGoings*

        The problem is I really can’t point to anything like that. The stuff I am noticing towards it getting better is things like more energy after work, work not being as rough on me and things like that. Nothing concrete in numbers to give to her yet. The biggest difference is now sick days are less from terrible medication side effect build up and more from the problem I was taking medication to ignore. They are sort of happening less but a bad week at work can easily shorten the gap.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It sounds like you just defined what you can tell her. 8•)

          “There’s nothing concrete in terms of numbers, but in terms of effects, these are the differences I am noticing so I am feeling positive about my progress and that I will get to a point where I won’t need to be out so often.”

  19. Folklorist*

    So, I have a kooky co-worker/officemate who is running for political office (local re-election) and talking about it non-stop. She doesn’t seem to really WANT to do it; she’s dragged her feet on getting a team and funding in place and just complains about it CONSTANTLY.

    Apparently, her competitor is a self-aggrandizing douchebag, but all of the young liberals will vote for him because he’s black, but he’s really acting in a conflict of interest because of [board that he belongs to]. She doesn’t have a team together and is SO TIRED and SO BEHIND, and hey, Folklorist, do you want to be my campaign manager/photographer/social media manager/treasurer? Are you sure? Here’s a paper; just spend the weekend walking around your neighborhood and collecting signatures for me. (I’ve been very open about the fact that I don’t want to be involved in any campaign whatsoever from the beginning of learning that she was in office, but she conveniently forgets this every damn time she asks me to be part of her campaign—because she doesn’t feel like searching for/paying for someone who is actually interested.)

    She launches into 20-minute rants about obscure school board issues apparently in the middle of whatever thought she was just having and doesn’t take the social cues to shut up and let me work on my real job that I’m here to do. I’ve tried gently suggesting that maybe she shouldn’t run and that she’s over being in office, but then she just said, “But who else would do it?!” (Umm…the guy running against you?) Now I’m just making monosyllabic grunts every time she does this and waving every request off with “Sorry, but good luck!” I don’t even know that I think she should be in office or that I will be voting for her! (DEFINITELY not going to tell her that, though!) Any ideas for getting through an already stressful election season?

    1. Pwyll*

      Unless you work in politics, you could try something like “I really wish you the best of luck, but I really prefer not to discuss politics at work.” And if she brings it up again, “As my momma always said, at work don’t ever talk about religion or politics!”

      1. motherofdragons*

        Ugh! I feel your frustration. I’d be more direct, just because you’ve already talked to her about it (making it clear you don’t want to be involved in elections, saying ‘Sorry but good luck’, etc). Maybe being more direct and less gentle will help her get it. If she asks you again to help out, say firmly and evenly, “Leslie, I do not want to be involved in your campaign. Please do not ask me again.” And if she brings it up again: “Leslie, we’ve gone over this. Stop asking me.” For when she launches into a tirade about the election or school board, feel free to interrupt. Literally hold up your hand and say, “Leslie, I am in the middle of something and don’t have time to discuss this right now.” She’ll probably get huffy, and that might not feel awesome, but hopefully it will stop her in her tracks and let you survive this election cycle, at least at work. Good luck!

  20. follow ups*

    I had an interview two weeks ago and they said they’d follow up by the end of next week with more details on the next round. I haven’t heard anything yet, so do you think it’s okay to follow up? Should I follow up with the person who interviewed me?

    1. Audiophile*

      I would wait until next week, since Monday was a holiday for a lot of businesses. Many people took last Friday off and were off on Monday, so they had an extended weekend.

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      I just want to let you know I’m in the same boat. I’m still scared, but I’m trying to be rational.

    1. Christy*

      Never mind, I decided to pry it apart. It’s disgusting. I highly recommend doing it yourself.

      1. Bowserkitty*

        I used to pick off all the keys for my home keyboard and then vacuum it. It was sooo satisfying.

        Otherwise, maybe use a paper clip to drag out all the dirt and crumbs. I’ve done that before too. I’d like to do it with the crevices in my mouse…

        1. Kate H*

          I always want to do that but I’m too afraid that I won’t be able to put the keys back in place when I’m done.

          1. Bowserkitty*

            My mom used to be really warey of me doing this for that exact reason! It took a couple of times to convince her I knew what I was doing. Admittedly, this is much easier with mechanical keyboards!

    2. Sarah*

      There’s a putty you can buy on Amazon that will get down in the cracks of your keyboard and pull stuff up.

        1. The Alias Gloria Has Been Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

          I’ve tried that, doesn’t work great on cat hair.

    3. Hlyssande*

      Shake it upside down to get as much of the crumb/dust/gunk out as possible, then wipe down with some sort of cleaner on a cloth? :(

    5. Annie Moose*

      I’ve been holding off cleaning mine because of how nasty I know it is… I’ll wipe down the keys with a little hand sanitizer sometime (it’s not water-based, so it can’t cause any harm… we have like no cleaning supplies on this floor so I make do with what’s available), but the inside is probably just nasty.

      For people who’ve never taken a keyboard apart before: if you get something sturdy and flat (like a metal knife or nail file), you can pry underneath keys and pop them right off. Usually you can just snap them back on, although sometimes they come apart and you have to do a little more finagling to get them back on. Unplug your keyboard first, though. :P

    6. Packers Fan*

      A clean, unused, paint brush. Does the trick every time! I hate gross keyboards.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I have used a cheapo toothbrush (obviously not one that touches my teeth!). Works best if you take the keys off (which is a pain but so nice when you’re done).

    7. Nanani*

      However you clean it, I recommend getting a keyboard cover after.
      It’s a piece of clear plastic that molds itself to the shape of the keys. For some keyboard models it comes pre-molded with the keys printed on top.

      Keeps cat hair out of my keys like a charm.

    8. Gabriela*

      I showed our IT manager mine and he was so repulsed he made me throw it away and gave me a new one…

      1. A Non E. Mouse*

        I showed our IT manager mine and he was so repulsed he made me throw it away and gave me a new one…

        This. They are cheap. I throw them away regularly and give people new ones.

        Some have been so groddy I make the person throw it away themselves – I won’t even touch it.

    9. Mander*

      Oh man, I was just going to rant about this today! ;-)

      I normally work in the field but I’ve been in the office doing some data entry and I’ve been using other people’s desks. The one I have been using was fairly icky and some of the keys were sticking, but I managed to shake a few crumbs out and it improved things. However, the one I used today was deeee-sgusting. There were little crumbs of stuff all over the desk and the chair (it’s one of those kneeling types so there’s a little padded bit that catches stuff falling off the desk) and the keyboard was just plain gross under the keys. All kinds of crumbs and dust and little splatters of some kind of spilled gunk on the keyboard and the monitor. If I didn’t know that this person would be back on Monday and I’ll be using yet another desk I would have taken the keyboard apart and scrubbed it!

      Maybe I’ll brink a little kit in with me next week and do some surreptitious keyboard cleaning.

    10. knitcrazybooknut*

      I recommend rubbing alcohol and q-tips after you pry the keys up. I do this about once a year. It’s disgusting but really satisfying for the obsessive types among us.

  22. Mel*

    Should I try to interview the best qualified women and minorities even though the most qualified tend to be white males?

    1. Kristine*

      How do you know the most qualified people in your applicant pool are white males? Did you look them all up on Linkedin first or something?

        1. Kelly L.*

          And if I got an email about an interview from a “Mel,” I would have no idea of the gender or race of the person I was about to meet. You might be surprised.

          Also, double check yourself to make sure you’re not forming preconceived notions about people’s qualifications based on what their names “sound” like. There have been studies about this–it’s a real problem, and a subconscious one.

        2. Spot*

          Take it easy on that. I have a name that sounds INCREDIBLY African-American, but I am whiter than a ghost.

          1. A Non E. Mouse*

            I have a name that sounds INCREDIBLY African-American, but I am whiter than a ghost.

            Wait. Are you me?

        3. Jubilance*

          WOW. You’re admitting to making assumptions about people based on their names?

          Listen my husband’s name makes him look like an Irish man, when he’s really Black. I suppose your brand of bigotry would grant him an interview..but as soon as he walked in the interview and you saw he was Black, would he suddenly be out of the running?

          You need to strongly rethink your screening procedures. Maybe HR needs to take names off the resumes before you get them, since you can’t be trusted to not discriminate based on names.

          1. Mel*

            Ha. Sure there’s a picture in my head of a white female when I see a Brittany smith . Or I picture a Latino male when I see a Jorge Perez. Or someone of Asian descent when I see an Asian name. So what? How does that make me hateful of other races?

            1. Natalie*

              Jubilance didn’t say “hateful”, she said you would be discriminating, which is accurate. Discrimination is way more often a result of subtle, unconscious biases than it is of an active, aggressively hateful person.

              1. Random Citizen*

                I think Mel meant that they identify the most qualified candidates, and can tell from the names that those candidates are most likely white males, not that they decide who’s most qualified based on them having white male names.

          2. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

            I read what Mel was saying as being that s/he is concerned that the best candidates appear to be white males, and s/he wants to ensure that women and/or BME candidates are represented in the pool, so s/he would be glad if someone s/he had thought ‘sounded’ white turned out to be black. But I may be wrong….

        4. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

          Leaving race out of it (as that is covered below) I would presume ‘Elizabeth’, ‘Melanie’, ‘Kathryn’ are women and ‘John’, ‘Simon’, ‘Thomas’, ‘Michael’ are men. It’s possible that that’s wrong but unlikely.

          Robin, Chris, Jamie, Jack, Alex, I won’t make any assumptions.

          I’m only very rarely involved in any shortlisting and our application process removes names before shortlisting anyway.

          1. Mander*

            And you might get British men with old-fashioned names: Hilary, Lacey, Leslie can all be men’s names here, for instance.

            1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

              Usually Lesley is a woman and Leslie is a man, but not always. Kelly, Kerry… there are tons of potentially ambiguous names. I presumed one name i hadn’t heard before was a man’s name this week and it turned out to be a woman. I found out on a call with my team manager, aaargh. I’m usually really careful about that too :(

            2. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

              Evelyn. I knew there was another one.

              1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

                Also in conversation with a colleague recently it transpired that we’d each been wrong in our presumptions in the gender of a couple of colleagues we’d only spoken to by email.

            3. Merry and Bright*

              Ha ha! I remember as a teenager being very amused to discover Mr Tupman in Charles Dickens’ “Pickwick Papers” is called Tracy.

            4. Snazzy Hat*

              I have known women and men (i.e., at least one woman and one man for each) named Ryan, Courtney, Ashley, Leslie, Jaime, Alex, Angel, and Mickey. I also have a cousin whose gender-absent first name is her mother’s maiden name, like if Maggie Simpson had been named Bouvier Simpson.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      You should interview the most qualified, but try to do a better job looking for well qualified women and minorities.

    3. Pwyll*

      One thing we used to do is have the names stripped from the applications before the hiring staff reviewed them. This was because we were in a TINY industry and didn’t want our decisions regarding first-round interviews based on who we knew. That way, we could very clearly point to the fact that everyone who was interviewed was selected based solely on their resume.

      You shouldn’t be basing your interview decisions at all on race or gender (or any number of other protected classes).

      2. Mel*

        Sure I consider what protected categories they’re in when I’m reviewing resumes. i might make sure to give a little extra attention or spend a little more time on a resume of a veteran or a female in a predominately male job or an older worker if my team is all young. Why is that a problem?

        1. Pwyll*

          Because basing hiring decisions on gender is illegal (in the overwhelming majority of instances).

          Favorable treatment to veterans is generally okay, though.

      3. Mel*

        For the sake of argument let’s just assume I’m correct and all of my best candidates (at least the ones good enough to interview) turn out to be all white males. Do I hire the white male or go back to the drawing board until I find good women and minority candidates?

        1. Pwyll*

          I think there are two different issues we’re discussing, but combining:

          1) You should be hiring the most qualified applicant you can hire, who will fit the company.

          2) You should be attracting an applicant pool as diverse as possible.

          So, if your most qualified applicant is a white male, hire the white male. But if your company wants to get the benefits of being a diverse and inclusive workplace, you SHOULD be reaching out to and publishing your job vacancies in minority-oriented professional associations.

          So, don’t base hiring decisions on race and gender, attract MORE races and genders to join the applicant pool.

          1. Mel*

            Agreed but what do I do if all of my interviewees turn out to all be white males and one of them is great? Do I hire him even though I haven’t seen any great minority or women canddiates ?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              If you do the work of building a diverse applicant pool, all of your interviewees shouldn’t turn out to be white males. If that’s happening, it’s a sign that you haven’t done the work of building a strong enough diverse applicant pool, and that’s where you need to focus.

    4. Natalie*

      If you’re in the US I don’t believe you’re allowed to take that into account. Civil rights laws cut all ways, they apply to men as much as women and white people as much as people of color.

    5. Chriama*

      How much have you eliminated bias in your hiring process? Can you get HR to pass you resumes without names or addresses and decide who to interview from there? From that point on, can you identify non-tradition strengths that all applicants may bring to the table? I think if all your best applicants are white males it may be a problem with the industry but you’re probably unconsciously falling prey to selection bias.

      1. designbot*

        Or alternately get someone coming from a different background than yourself to review the applications as well and compare notes. It may be that your notion of the white men being the most qualified is more subjective than you realize.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It sounds like there’s an issue with your applicant pool. What have you done to build your pool of applicants to make the pool itself more diverse? (More complicated: What have you done to ensure your workplace is an attractive place for women and minorities to work?)

      1. Mel*

        I don’t reach out specifically to any groups. I just post on my website and the biggest industry association website and get plenty of really great resumes. There’s really not a dire need to look for more good candidates. I have more than I can handle already.

          1. Mel*

            I really don’t know for sure how many candidates of the total applicant pool are minority so it’s hard to say the pool as a whole isn’t diverse. I just know the ones who scored the highest (my system scores on yrs of exp, skills, etc) tend to be white male sounding names. are you saying I shouldn’t hire anyone until I reach out to those groups? Even though I likely have a great candidate now?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Do you care about diversity? If so, it sounds like you haven’t done a thorough recruiting job for the position and need to remedy that. I’m working from the assumption that you do care, since you’re asking the question.

            2. Chriama*

              I’m a little confused because it sounds like you recognize there might be problem with the diversity of your hiring pool but you’re kind of asking ‘how can I do the bare minimum to improve diversity in my hiring’. And to be frank, I don’t think that’s a reasonable question — or rather, it’s reasonable to ask, but you aren’t going to get very many helpful answers.

              Anyway, it’s illegal to make hiring decisions based on race or gender — yes, even if that decision is biased toward a traditionally disadvantaged group! So no, you should not hire a minority candidate over a more qualified white male. But if you’re concerned about diversity in your hiring process, lots of people have suggested ways to improve that. As a first step, I would *really* recommend finding a way to get anonymized resume information and make a decision on who to interview based purely on the resume. From there you can move into more time-consuming stuff like reaching out to more minority-focused professional associations.

              1. Christopher Tracy*

                I’m a little confused because it sounds like you recognize there might be problem with the diversity of your hiring pool but you’re kind of asking ‘how can I do the bare minimum to improve diversity in my hiring’.

                And we have a winner.

                Just ugh to this whole thread.

    8. Spoliokus*

      You should look at your recruiting methods. The methods you are using now are mostly attracting white makes. Where/how else could you advertise jobs that would bring in a more diverse group of highly qualified candidates?

      1. Jillociraptor*

        And also: have you assessed whether your vision of “qualified” is biased? Systems of oppression continue to limit the access marginalized people have to many opportunities, AND reinforce an image in our heads of leadership and competence that is often a White man.

      1. Sadsack*

        I think Mel’s point is that the majority of highest qualified candidates based on resumes are white men, or so he thinks.

        1. strike*

          Is there some kind of diversity quota they’re trying to hit that would make them pass over more qualified applicants based on irrelevant to work details like race or gender?

    10. CMT*

      Oh! Have you read the interviews Samantha Bee has done about how she’s managed to hire a very diverse team to work on her show? I’m guessing you’re not hiring writers for a comedy show, but some of the ideas probably apply, like getting the word out in circles other than traditionally white, male networks.

    11. Observer*

      I suggest you start screening your resumes without the names on them.

      I’m betting you’ll find yourself surprised.

      1. Chriama*

        Addresses too, because in some city that indicates race and/or socioeconomic class (which again, is strongly correlated with race).

    12. stevenz*

      I’m not going to flame the OP, just answer its question. Yes. But do try to hire the best of the lot.

  23. Anon for This*

    I want to ask to go part time at work. While there is precedent, we are getting ready to launch something new in 6 weeks and I have the kind of boss who will take this personally. While my quality of life benefits are great, I haven’t had a raise or a bonus in almost a decade – my company does neither and it’s a big part of why I need to go part time. I can’t afford the expense of care for my children. Suggestions?

    1. Chriama*

      I would say if you haven’t had a raise in almost a decade and are paying too much in childcare to make the job worthwhile then you should look for a new job. The benefit of choosing to work rather than stay at home to cover childcare costs is that, as your work experience increases, your income does too. If that’s not happening then you kind of just have a crappy job, don’t you?

      Do you see yourself sticking around here until retirement? If not, ~10 years is long enough that you should be looking at a new company anyway. Remember, staying too long at one company is another of those things that companies find unattractive in a job applicant.

  24. Anne*

    Are maxi skirts and dresses work appropriate? I talking about a business casual environment.. And no slits in the skirt and no see throughness

    1. Hlyssande*

      Most maxi skirts, I think so. Dresses would still depend on the neckline, cut, print, etc.

    2. taylor swift*

      I have 2 maxi skirts that I wear every now and then- they’re not my favorite so I don’t wear them that often. My office is business casual, and every time I wear one, someone makes a comment that I look very nice, or that I must have an interview that I’m dressed up for, or that I must have dressed up for something else. Whereas I kind of view them as a last-minute, couldn’t find anything else to wear so settled on that. So I’d say that yes, they are appropriate for business casual.

    3. Effective Immediately*

      I think it depends on your industry. In most social services/nonprofit worlds I’ve encountered, they’re considered perfectly appropriate business casual. But a business casual dress code at, say, a small bank or more broadly conservative industry might not count maxi dresses as appropriate.

      I’d lean away from them if you don’t see other people wearing them; they read as really casual to me.

    4. Bowserkitty*

      I’m curious about this as well. It seems to (stupidly) depend on your body type. I see taller girls get away with it a lot but I’m shorter and curvy and feel like I’m getting a lot of undeserved, unspoken critique when I wear shorter skirts/dresses in the office. (They make my legs look longer! :( )

      1. Bowserkitty*

        MAXI SKIRTS NOT MINI SKIRTS YOU UNDERCAFFEINATED DING DONG

        ……in that case, I’ve worn a maxi skirt before and had no problems!

        1. Nanc*

          Undercaffeinated commenting . . . we’ve all been there!

          I, too, think maxi skirts are fine in a casual office environment. Bonus points if they are cute with usable pockets (what do designers have against usable pockets in women’s clothes? And by usable, I do not mean chest pockets!).

          1. Bowserkitty*

            I’m really good at PG insults lately. My mom used to (and maybe still does?) call people duck eggs..

        3. Elizabeth West*

          LOL!!!

          People wear them all the time in my office. I don’t wear skirts much because little belly and chafing but I might get some spanx or something. I have a long black skirt i never wear. I should or get rid of it!

          1. Blue_eyes*

            If you want something without compression (I like something to prevent chafing but don’t want slimming because, uncomfortable), try Ellen Tracy slip shorts (available on Amazon). I just bought a bunch of slip shorts and spandex shorts to try and the Ellen Tracy ones are by far my favorite. And $24 for a 3 pack is not a bad price.

    5. Persephone Mulberry*

      Maxi skirts would be appropriate in every business casual office I’ve worked in (I’m wearing one today!).

      Maxi dresses I agree with the above comment about sleeves/necklines – since most of the dresses I see are tank-style on top, you’d probably want to pair it with a light cardigan.

      1. notfunny.*

        I’ve also worn a maxi dress with a shirt underneath, or camisole and a jacket on top! Lots of styling options if the top is revealing, as long as the skirt is not see through and it’s ok with the dress code.

      2. NCKat*

        There’s a temp in my office who wore a maxi dress yesterday. Nothing wrong with that, except that it was a bare-shoulder neckline (that is, one shoulder was bare while the other was covered up). I was aghast. This is a company where jeans are not worn and open-toed sandals are frowned upon.

    6. the_scientist*

      It was nearly 40 degrees celsius where I live yesterday, so I wore a maxi dress to my casually business-casual office. I did not have any meetings with external stakeholders. Many of my coworkers wear maxi dresses in the summer, but I think the following needs to be in place:

      1) my dress has a higher, scooped neckline and thick shoulder straps. A lot of dresses in this style have thin straps and lower necklines, which probably aren’t appropriate
      2) I wore a light, drapey cardigan over it, although sleeveless tops/dresses are considered OK in my office
      3) I was wearing a half slip (slip shorts, actually)- light jersey can be *really* clingy and see through so a slip is critical to create a smooth line and avoid unfortunate show through.

      I resisted the maxi dress trend for a long time, but they’re basically like wearing socially acceptable PJs (so soft and comfy!) and now I’m kicking myself for not jumping on the bandwagon earlier!

      1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        Upon further reflection, scratch the “pretty much” . It’s literally all I ever wear.

    8. Different Anne*

      I wear maxi skirts to work occasionally and think they’re fine. I usually try to dress mine up a little bit with jewelry and a shoe with a small heel since I’m short (5’1).

    9. Kelly L.*

      I think the length is fine as long as the fabric is worky. Probably not those flowy beach dresses that feel like PJs. But I think a skirt of that length made of the same material as professional pants/shorter skirts is fine.

    10. LizB*

      I think they’re fine depending on the fabric — some maxi dresses, especially the cheaper ones, have thin fabric that isn’t see-through but tends to cling in a kind of revealing way. As long as they don’t have that problem, you should be fine.

    11. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Honestly, I think most of the time they are too casual but I think it will depend a lot on your particular office. I love maxi dresses and wear them a lot for casual events, but I only have one that I think is appropriate for work. But I style it very differently for work than I would normally. It has a high neckline with a little bit of a keyhole (not cleavage-revealing). It is sleeveless, so I put a cardigan over it. I also wear ballet flats, no sandals. It is a muted-tone color as well, no bright colors or loud prints. And I still wouldn’t wear it on a day I have a big meeting or something.

    12. EP*

      YES! Its like wearing work appropriate yoga pants – I have like 5 and end up in them a lot.
      As long as you stick to solids or basic patterns they tend to go over fine. And I wear them with either a tank top under the dresses that are lower cut than appropriate for work, and always just throw on a jean jacket or cardigan.

      I also wear mine year round with boots.

      1. Elsie_D*

        At first, I thought you were saying that work-appropriate yoga pants were a thing and that people should wear maxi skirts like they wear these yoga pants… O.o

    13. Spondee*

      I wear and see both in my (fairly casual) office. Maxi skirts are more common and I see a bigger variety of styles. Maxi dresses seem to be juuust becoming acceptable. They’re almost always paired with a cardigan or casual blazer. The best rule I can think of for whether or not a particular maxi dress is appropriate is to imagine it knee length. If that dress would be appropriate, then you’re good to go.

    14. Dorothy Mantooth*

      I have a black maxi skirt on heavy rotation during the summer. My office is mid-level business casual. I think if you can pair it with the same types of tops/blouses you would wear with dress pants you’re fine.

    15. Clever Name*

      I wore a maxi skirt the other day, and discovered through conversation that it’s older than our receptionist. :/

    16. NaoNao*

      I would say that, although it depends on your position and industry, I must politely disagree with most commenters here and say that maxi skirts and dresses are too casual to wear to work.
      Reasons:
      *fabric*
      Generally, knit (stretch) fabric reads as far more casual than woven fabric. It took me a long time to work out why my “business casual” clothing seemed to always fall on the “too casual” side. Then I stumbled on something in a blog that explained this, how knit material will always look more casual than woven. Bingo. Problem solved. If one item in the outfit is knit (such as a ponte shift dress) the other items should be woven, and major shoes and jewelry is in order.

      *wardrobing*
      Generally, the items that “go” with a maxi are very casual. One doesn’t generally wear a button down and a blazer with a maxi, or a merino wool v neck pullover. –tank tops, cardigans, low sandals or slip on flats, etc. The overall look will read as very low key and wash and wear. Again, nothing wrong with it inherently, but it will be casual-looking and feeling.

      *function/ status*
      Most maxi dresses were made to be comfortable alternatives to palazzo pants or short, breezy sundresses. They’re made for play/fun. They’re often in loud tropical colors, fun prints, or read “playful” (I had one that had sections of black and white stripes set at angles to one another).
      This next part may be open to interpretation, but generally the lower on the “decorative/ delicate” scale one’s clothing goes (the difference between a crisp white blouse and a pencil skirt vs. pull on knit trousers and a long sleeved v neck pull on sweater, let’s say) the lower on the status scale one is perceived to be. For example, the lawyers of “Suits” TV show very rarely are seen at work in maxi anything, because it’s a “low status” item. Does this make sense? Is it fair? Is it modern? Oh gosh no! It’s a holdover from the blue/white/pink collar designation days where someone’s “work clothing” indicated their societal status. That’s why what we call rompers used to be called “playsuits”—because people wouldn’t wear the same clothing to work as to “play” if they were of a certain social class.

      The only exception I could think of for this would be a very high quality (like Eileen Fisher) black, stone, charcoal or optic white maxi, with “serious” shoes (like Rachel Comey) and statement jewelry and a linen tunic over it, like “Ms. Art Director of a Certain Age With Impeccable Taste”.

      YMMV!! not saying my word is law!! I’m still figuring out my own wardrobe and am no expert.

  25. taylor swift*

    An update to last week’s open thread post about driving my coworker to/from work – https://www.askamanager.org/2016/07/open-thread-july-1-2-2016.html#comment-1125429
    I mentioned (again) to my boss about how I was frustrated by her attitude and the driving, etc. It didn’t really go anywhere, just a general “well that’s how she is” and a consensus that we’re all a little annoyed but it is what it is, and a look of frustration that I was bringing this up again. I mentioned that it might be time to find something a bit more sustainable long-term. After that the conversation was dropped as someone else came in and we had to get going on another project.

    It was my scheduled day to pick her up the next morning, and about 15 minutes after I left work, I got a text from a different coworker saying that she’d pick up coworker … I responded “if you want to !” and she replied back “just trying to help!”

    So I’d imagine news of my frustration spread and other coworkers are doing more….as such, I haven’t had to pick her up or take her home all week. So it’s not really resolved, but other people are doing it, and I imagine that once they start getting sick of it, more will be done but as of now I’m off the rotation. I do still think that something more sustainable needs to be worked out, but if everyone else is okay with driving her then I guess that’s what’s going to happen but I am no longer on the chauffeur team.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      For what it’s worth, you’re still hinting rather than directly saying “I won’t be able to drive her anymore.” So if the problem returns, please keep in mind that you need to say that!

    2. Hlyssande*

      I agree with Allison. You need to be blunt about it.

      Also, if you’re having to drive her home and then go back to the office, then go home at your normal time, have you been claiming the mileage and wear/tear for your car?

      1. AF*

        Excellent point! If everyone starts submitting for mileage reimbursement (and it’s costing the company money), they may push back a bit on this employee to find a different transportation method. Even if the distance isn’t super far, this is legitimately damaging your car.

      2. AF*

        Also, if she has a medical issue that prevents her from walking, and your town has a bus/public transportation system, there may be a program available to her where she can get transportation to and from work, and it could be paid for through her insurance. I’m not saying that’s YOUR responsibility to figure that out, but suggesting it may help your employer find a solution for her.

    3. Sadsack*

      Why are you asking for permission to stop? Just say you can’t do it any more due to other obligations.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This. It might make it easier to say “I can’t do it after this week”, so they can’t complain that you left them suddenly stranded, although it sounds like your coworkers will be picking up the slack. And if they don’t mind driving, that’s their business. But then if they do mind, it’s on them to say no for themselves.

        1. taylor swift*

          Because my only reason for not being able to is “I don’t want to.” Which feels insufficient, even though it shouldn’t.

          1. Biff*

            No is a complete sentence. I took me every so long to learn this. Too long. Please say no. There are tons and tons and tons of people out there who are happier when they can outsource their problems, such as your coworker is. Don’t feed that beast.

          2. strike*

            Can you please explain to us why it is ANYONE from your companies problem that this lady cant get to work. It’s not the employer or other employees jobs to get someone to work. It’s the employee who needs a rides responsibility.

            Not to be rude or start getting deragatory, but It sounds like little miss carpool needs to take up walking or buy her own car.

            1. Biff*

              Last week it was revealed that she owns a car but cannot drive due to anxiety. Frankly, it sounds like to me that she needs more appropriate treatment.

              1. strike*

                Yeah treatments for anxiety. Or an agressive exercise routine so she can get where she needs to go without a car.

          3. Sadsack*

            Not wanting to/not having time/whatever is a good enough reason. I would not even be talking to my manager. I’d tell my coworker directly, be nice about it, but be firm. You are the only reason you are still doing this! I feel bad for you because you are obviously a kind person, but your coworker has really taken advantage of your kindness and is now undeserving of your generosity.

            1. Dweali*

              Agreed…I tell people “No, I’d rather not/don’t want to/can’t” all the time. I see it as a perk of being an adult (along with buying alcohol/drinking coffee/choosing bed times/naps)

              My personal time is valuable, whether or not I have anything more planned than lounging around the house naked doesn’t matter.

              I get around sounding like a curmudgeon by using a cheery/nice tone while saying “I won’t be able to do this anymore” sometimes followed with a smile. But always matter of fact and no long winded explanations.

          4. Always Anon*

            All you need to say is that you aren’t available to serve as this person’s personal taxi service.

            You don’t need to explain why. It’s no one else’s business. There will be people who will mention that you are being mean. But, you shrug them off. You’ve given this person a ride to work for 8 months. I suspect that she has not been providing you with money towards gas, or any of the other things that typically go along with carpooling.

            So you say you aren’t available anymore. Leave it at that, and then wait for things to blow over. Someone else will probably pick-up the slack for a few weeks, and then they’ll start bitching about it.

          5. fposte*

            Your “No” needs some bulking up–get it some steroids :-).

            You don’t need a reason. You especially don’t need a reason for not doing something unreasonable. You don’t have to default to “yes” for every request. It is not your obligation to do everything people ask of you unless you have a court-acceptable reason not to. It is not obligatory for being a good person, a nice person, well-liked, respected, etc. Building up your no will serve you well in life.

          6. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Well, as was discussed pretty thoroughly last week, you don’t need to say “I don’t want to.” You can say “I’m not driving to work anymore” or “my spouse needs the car from now on.” What’s your resistance to those options?

            1. strike*

              Alison, I would argue that those options are avoiding the issue.

              Op shouldnt HAVE to carpool anyone unless they’re in a company vehicle.

              ‘I will not pick up jane anymore with my personal vehicle’ is a perfectly valid decision unless the company is providing compensation for the service.

              Op should not be forced to be unable to use their car because of an unreasonable coworker.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Of course, but I want to give the OP wording that she’ll actually use, and she’s made it pretty clear that she’s not comfortable with just saying “I won’t do it anymore.”

    4. Marzipan*

      I still vote for stopping bringing your car – at least in the short term, while you break the cycle of doing this. I remember you said it was a walkable distance for you, so it’s quite doable and gives a really obvious “sorry, can’t” reason.

      2. MoinMoin*

        Agreed, and for most places in the US, it’s a beautiful time of year to set a precedent.

    5. COT*

      Remember that it’s not your office’s responsibility to make sure that this woman can get to work. It’s hers. It’s a natural consequence that if she is entitled, crabby, or unkind then her current free ride service ends and she needs to look for another option. That’s her problem, not yours.

      1. I'm Not Phyllis*

        This so much. Nobody cares how I get to work as long as I get here. I don’t understand why your company or manager or whoever is the driving force isn’t holding her to the same account as everyone else. If she is having some personal troubles and needs a drive to work then they can go the extra mile by paying for a taxi, but they shouldn’t be asking others to shuttle her around. This is taking the burden off of her, and off of the employer – sure – but it’s placing it onto their employees. Not cool!

    6. wanderer*

      Ok, so I wasn’t here for last week’s discussion and I did not read the full thread of comments, but I have to ask why are you even consulting with the boss on this at all? If this has not been officially added to your (and co-worker’s) job description, then the discussion should be between you and her. It is not your responsibility to even have to think about her need for sustainable transportation, let alone discuss it with boss/co-workers. It sort of reminds me of parents and two sets of grandparents taking turns getting the child to and from daycare. In terms of her need for sustainable and reliable transportation, don’t kid yourself: she HAS thought about that and figured it out for herself. She’s probably quite pleased with herself that she has come up with such convenient and affordable (free, in fact!) transportation to and from work.

      Take a hard line on this one, Taylor, and stick with it. Like Dr. Phil says, lol, you teach people how to treat you.

    7. Rebecca*

      I am really puzzled by the fact that someone’s boss can mandate that they provide transportation to and from work for another employee, with a personal car no less. I could see if you were provided with a company car, but my car, my car payment, my car insurance payments, my upkeep, my rules is how I see it. I know I’ve run into car pool issues with my manager, who wanted our car pool to include yet another person in the office, and we held firm and said “no”. This person is a smoker and we wanted no part of being trapped in a car with her for over an hour a day.

      Does this coworker ever offer money for gas or upkeep? Or does she just expect that people will shuttle her around at her behest?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        The office hasn’t mandated it. She’s agreed to do it but no one has told her it’s required. She just needs to un-volunteer herself and the problem will be solved.

    8. Pineapple Incident*

      I’m sorry you’re stuck in this situation- it sucks that people have come to just expect and accept outlandish behavior from this coworker of yours. I’m glad that you seem to be out of the rotation for now, but keep in mind that it might only be for now. I want to echo everyone’s sentiments here and say to draw a hard line and you’ll be glad you did- this person’s minimal good will is not worth wear and tear on your car, interruption of your workday, and any other costs or inconvenience incurred by driving her to and from home.

      It feels weird to not qualify or adjust your “No” or “I won’t be able to continue driving Jane to/from work anymore,” but fight that impulse to justify your reasons. No one is entitled to your reasons, and she is not entitled to your continued (and free) help. Her situation is arguably not rosy, but she sucks for treating you like a chauffeur, displaying any kind of entitlement about this, not contributing money to this extended favor, and for letting her coworkers take on this problem for 8 months with no end in sight.

      Be like Dory- but instead of “Just keep swimming,” it’s “Just No.”

    9. Gene*

      From what I gathered in reading last week’s thread, you live 8 blocks from work and the only reason you are driving to work is to give her a ride.

      Here’s a script for you, “Can’t do it. Now that summer is here, I’m going to be walking to work.” Then start doing it. You’ll get your morning and afternoon mile walk in, and likely feel better for it; not just the exercise, but the relief from getting this monkey off your back and not having to interrupt your work flow at 3:30.

    10. Perse's Mom*

      Take this break to set up a new pattern for yourself. Start walking/biking to work since you live quite close. Make it clear that your car is not available. “The weather’s been so great that my car never leaves the garage anymore.” “I love the peace and quiet of my walk to work.”

      I got out of this sort of thing myself after months of it, but only because we hit a massive project and I stopped trying to adjust my schedule for hers when our hours were constantly shifting (I was working longer weekdays to try to preserve my weekends, she went the opposite direction). I did have to say point blank that at least until the project was over, she would have to make other arrangements. By the time the project was over, the other arrangements just continued.

  26. Effective Immediately*

    Manager question: how do you address a staff member that is widely regarded as lazy, when you don’t have any solid data to back that up?

    I have a staff member on whom I’ve gotten numerous, independent reports from trusted employees of laziness on their part. I tried to probe a little deeper–ask what it is in particular they’re not doing, what makes the reporting team member say that, etc–but because the industry I’m in isn’t predicated on hard deliverables, I’m stumped as to how to address this. It’s basically that they’re slower in taking on necessary tasks, not as helpful as they need to be in a team environment, etc. I don’t really have any way to measure that, and I don’t have any specific examples to fall back on. I’ve examined their performance along every metric I could think of and come up dry, but I find it very hard to believe that even team members that travel from remote sites (who have little to no interaction with the core team and have no reason to lie) would be making this up.

    I really don’t want to shrug it off as hearsay and say there’s nothing I can do about it–I want my staff to know I hear their concerns and take them seriously–I’m just not certain what that conversation with the alleged lazy employee would look like. Help AAM hivemind!

    1. Leatherwings*

      It sounds like you really don’t have a handle on what the “laziness” reports actually mean. That’s up to you as a manager to figure out. If your employee is getting her work done in a way that’s satisfactory to you, then I don’t know why you would speak to her.

      It sounds like you need to get a better handle on the way your team works. There may just be some interpersonal issues at play, or maybe your team member really does need to speed up. Regardless, you can’t talk to the person unless you know what the actual issue is.

      1. JaneB*

        Can you ask the people complaining to give you some concrete examples of how it affects their work, or suggestions of what they’d like to see change?

        Or can you find a way to get data on these little details, if the person never does some task everyone’s supposed to pitch in on like refilling the copier or avoids picking up tasks for ultra picky client so they can just cherry pick easier tasks, you could try collecting some data – be open about wanting to be sure things are evenly distributed & working well, and get folk to email you/ add to a check list/ whatever every time they do the thing for a fixed period. That might also give you interesting insights into how the team work which you could follow up later – does Julie mind that she refills the copier about half the time or is she someone who likes the excuse to move around a bit during her work day? Does Tina like doing invoices for picky client becausr she’s a stickler for detail herself and likes the challenge, so would like to do more of it, or does she resent the way it ends up on her desk so often?

    2. Hlyssande*

      I think that you need to ask for concrete, specific examples when someone brings it up. If they can’t provide actual examples of an incident, then all you really have is hearsay – especially since the employee appears to be performing up to standards as far as your performance metrics are concerned.

      Or maybe the metrics need to be tightened up. Is Employee A getting task Z done in two days while Employee B gets it done in three, but the metrics say three days is appropriate?

      /not a manager

      1. designbot*

        I was wondering the same about the metrics–it sounds like Effective Immediately might be measuring by a different metric than their employees are. Are they comparing to someone else who is abnormally fast about this stuff? Or have they assumed a certain level of experience in this employee that is incorrect? It seems like there must be some basis for this misalignment of expectations.

      2. Ama*

        Also, I have been in work situations where “lazy” was thrown at a person who declined to do a task a coworker asked them to do when a) the coworker had no authority to delegate to them and b) the task was outside the “lazy” person’s job description. Sometimes this was something the complaining coworker knew full well they weren’t supposed to delegate and sometimes it was a miscommunication. Concrete examples will do a LOT to clear up exactly what’s happening.

    3. Anna*

      I don’t think you can bring it up unless (as otherwise noted) you have a more concrete idea of what that means. It would be incredibly frustrating for the employee if you pulled her in to talk to them about “laziness” and not be able to point to anything specifically. Alison advises against that frequently. So yeah, get a handle on what you’re measuring and how this employee is producing compared to that and then have the discussion. (Remember, you don’t have to have the conversation RIGHT NOW to be addressing their concerns. Gathering information is also acting on them.)

    4. Dawn*

      The next time you have someone bring that complaint to you, ask them what they’d like to see instead- “I hear you Fergus, and I understand your frustration. In this situation, what would you like to see from Hamilton instead?” That will probably result in a pattern of people saying “Well, I’d like Hamilton to get back to me within a day instead of taking a week to respond” or, alternatively, “I’d like Hamilton to use Times New Roman instead of Garamond.” And then you can take it from there.

      1. Biff*

        This is a great idea!

        Also, even a team without completely concrete deliverables should have metrics and standards against which they can be judged. Develop them.

    5. LCL*

      It sounds like what your employees are really saying is that your worker lacks initiative. They might not be lazy, they just might not mesh with the other employees. I have been through this more than once with my group, where two or more people will divide up the work amongst themselves and deliberately cut out the other person, then slag them for being lazy.
      One way around this is for the manager to ask everyone at the morning meeting their plans for the day, and if they want help.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      If she meets the metrics, what about the others? If everyone else is doing 20% more with regularity that could be the problem there. Conversely, if she is not taking her turn at tasks, then her numbers might be higher than everyone else’s as they absorb her share of the task work.

      I don’t see anything wrong with asking her to pick up speed on necessary tasks and telling her to offer to help more often. No you can’t measure this, but you can watch to see if the complaints go down. If she is not taking her turn at necessary tasks as frequently as others that can be addressed by scheduling the task on rotation, if she does not pick up her pace.

      If it seems natural to do so, can you sit at a desk near her and quietly observe while doing some of your own work?

  27. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Newjob starts next week!! Eeek! That said, I’m feeling jittery/nervous. It’s a more advanced position/exciting company and all. With some JD-ing involved.
    1) How do you relax in the week before a new job?
    2) How do you lessen imposter syndrome? (I’m working in a very male-area and I’ll likely be the youngest too)

    It’s a superb company, but I get terrified I’ll have a scary team, or scary project manager, or….etc. (My 1st job outside grad school was with a horrific manager who gave me job-ptsd, I got shoulder pain/body pain from sheer stress of that job).

    1. bassclefchick*

      Yay! Congrats. My new job starts next week too. I’ve been bingeing on Orange is the New Black. Yesterday, I went to the zoo (the zoo in my city has free admission). Of course, part of my week was spent getting the pre-employment drug and physical tests done. I’ll be working in health care, so I had to get a TB test.

      I’d say, I hope you did all the things that you wished you had time to do when you were working. Especially the stuff like “go to the beach and hang out” and all the lazy things we want to do, but don’t because we “should be” working.

      As for the imposter syndrome? Well, I’m struggling with that myself, so I’ll be looking for suggestions.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Re: imposter syndrome: same. I just had my midyear performance review, where I was told, “you have the skills to do your job, you just need to have more confidence in yourself!” It was reaffirming to hear that (because I really do wonder, a lot of days), but it doesn’t just magically make my doubts go away.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      2) Read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect.

      Imposter syndrome is a sign of intelligence and competency. Remind yourself of that any time you feel it creeping up.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Peppermint oil for the shoulder pain, but probably only after work, not during work. One drop for each shoulder, rub it in.

  28. Bowserkitty*

    Today is the day I turn things around at work. I’ve been in a depression slump for the past several weeks and I am determined to make it through.

    1. Lawnonymous*

      First – I love your determination and the decisiveness of your comment. You can totally do it!
      Second – it is very comforting for me to hear that others have depression slumps as well. I’ve been having one for what seems like months now. Basically I’m no longer enjoying a job I used to really like and I am absolutely irritated with my co-workers (for what seems like no good reason). I’ve never had a slump last this long before and I don’t know how to turn it around. Anyone have any ideas?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Oh man, depression slumps are the worst. I had one that lasted… ugh, I wanna say like two years. I’m just grateful that my team (unrelatedly) managed to go through three different managers in that time, so I didn’t have any one boss around long enough to get sick of it and fire me.

      2. KL*

        I’m sorry, Lawnonymous. I was going through a slump that kind of sounds similar to yours and I think I may have finally gotten out. It took me a while, but I sat down and asked myself what did I feel was missing/wrong. I tried re-framing the issue and remembered to practice my gratitudes (sorry, I don’t know a better way to phrase it) from my mindfulness mediations and it helped me figure out what I needed to change to get myself back together. And it may sound harsh, but I’ve also stopped doing more social things, like lunches, coffees, or stopping by to chat, because I realized that I could handle some of the more annoying coworkers and their comments better if I just wasn’t around them.

        1. Lawnonymous*

          Thanks KL – I really appreciate your comments. I know that there is something wrong/missing/bothering me about work but I haven’t been able to put my finger on it – I’ll keep trying to figure it out though and in the meantime, I’ll try your suggestions. Thanks again.

    5. KL*

      Go Bowserkitty! You’ve got this. As another person who battles with depression and anxiety, I wish you all of the strength you need to keep fighting. :)

    6. LizB*

      I believe in you! I’m in the throes of a depression slump right now, and trying to fight my way out. We’ll get there!

    7. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Yes, you can do it!
      I just pushed out of my own months-long slump– sending cheers and good vibes!

    8. Bowserkitty*

      Thanks everyone for your kind words :) I’ve gotten quite a bit done today and I almost wish I wasn’t too busy to come in a bit this weekend (eep) but at least I’ve gotten things out of the way that I’ve meant to do for a while. Desk isn’t any cleaner but it will be soon!

      1. Bowserkitty*

        I also meant to say – it feels comforting to know I’m not the only one going through this.

      2. Snazzy Hat*

        My advice is coming from a household perspective rather than a work perspective (though I wish I could give you the latter; I’ve been unemployed & searching for over six months now), but with all the crap that accompanies depression.

        I’m really glad to read “I’ve gotten quite a bit done today”, as I have had way too many days which fall into one or more of the following categories:
        1) food-sleep-food-sleep
        2) I know I have stuff I need to do, but…
        3) I don’t care how hot it is in here, I’m not going outside.
        4) I have to get out of this damn house. (Bonus: s.o. has the car all day)
        5) How annoyed would my dad be if I asked him to come over and help me clean?

        Eventually, the little accomplishments and distractions add up to success, even if they’re surrounded by fog and sloth (alas, not a herd of sloths). I am embarrassed at the time I finally got out of bed today, but the dishes are clean & put away, the stove is clean, and the bathtub is clean. I’m proud of myself for putting away said dishes most of all, because I took the extra step beyond “well, they’re clean, isn’t that enough?”

        So! You are awesome! Keep up the task taming, pace yourself, take breaks or diversions (example of the latter: Task A for fifteen minutes, Task B for ten, then back to Task A), and you will get there!

        We all will! Woo! Go team! {waves pom-poms}

        1. Bowserkitty*

          Many hugs to you!!!! It sounds like we’ve got something in common here. I truly hope your job search turns up lucky soon.

  29. Anon29*

    How does one deal with moving to a position with less responsibility? I was a supervisor for team A, and while on paper I got excellent feedback from my managers, they did not provide support when I asked for help or advice. It was hard and stressful. After much resistance from team A’s management, I moved to team B as individual contributor. Now, I’m learning new skills, get exposure to up and coming industry, and it’s much easier. At the same time, it hurts that my opinion no longer matters and I’m angry at myself for sabotaging my career in this company. Have any of you stepped down? What happened? Did your career ever recovered?

    1. Kalli*

      Reframe it. All the reasons that you had to leave Team A are valid. You have positives about Team B. Since it’s an up-and-coming industry, you are well-placed to be able to move into a supervisory position on expansion, or if you leave the company. But right now you’re taking care of yourself too, and that’s just as important.

      If your opinion doesn’t matter, that’s a sign of bad management – your opinions should matter, even if they’re not acted on. They’re making you angry at yourself for them not being supportive of you. If you can focus on the positive parts, and they outweigh the sucky attitude at this company, that’s great; it sounds like they’re not doing wonders for your career, though. Generally, anyone who changes industries has to start from lower down and work back up, but many of the skills from supervising and management are transferable – you can keep those sharp, though.

      My experience in “stepping down” is when my position was made rather tighter in scope as it had been rather laxly defined and poorly enforced. My career was fine, but I didn’t recover from the bad environment that led to the change in time to do well in it. That was a company issue rather than a me issue, and the space helped me recognise it and GTFO.

    2. anon again*

      A few years ago I was in an extremely stressful job. I was managing a department, supervising several employees, and my manager kept adding to my workload while taking away resources. I was overworked, overwhelmed, stressed and cranky. I voluntarily took a demotion to move to a different role in a different department. It was great to work a humane schedule with reasonable expectations.

      After two years, I was able to move back to a higher-level role, though without regular supervisory responsiblilities. That’s not a bad thing, though. I enjoy what I’m doing and have a better work-life balance. I’m much nicer to work with and be around because I’m not stressed and overwhelmed all the time.

      Taking a step back can sometimes be beneficial. And working in multiple levels and different areas of a company can make you more knowledgeable and valuable to the company. At least, that’s a big part of how I was able to advance back up the ladder – my broad knowledge of the company allowed me to be extra valuable to a department wit newer staff that needed an experienced resource.

    3. NicoleK*

      I was a manager for Company A. Like you, I did not feel valued and supported. I left Company A for Company B and moved back into an individual contributor role. Now I have more of a work/life balance but I don’t have the organization support at this time to advance my career. It’s only been 6 months so things may change.

  30. AnotherAlison*

    Well, so far today is a fail. Had my voice break on a conference call with a client, while talking about equipment. He said something with a nasty tone that blindsided me. (I said we would do some due diligence on a price they received from a vendor and he got very nasty and said don’t you dare.) Anyway. I went off my birth control for the first time in 1 years 2 days ago and completely have lost my self-control. Very embarrassing. (Explained it at a high level to my man-boss after, that it was a med change. Ugh.)

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Doesn’t sound like a fail, sounds like dealt in very good but not perfect fashion with a high-maintenance problem client. The client is the only one who should be embarrassed. You may have room to improve there, but don’t we all?

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I wrote a response to this 3x, and I can’t adequately explain the situation without TMI. I can say that we know they aren’t lying, but it’s one data point that is an outlier with our experience. They want to go with the outlier.

        1. animaniactoo*

          So it’s likely “don’t you dare screw up this rate for me”?

          In which case, he’s a jerk – and please send him my way and I will happily explain why a low rate usually means either substandard work/equipment, or that the full scope of the project isn’t included in the rate, and therefore it is necessary to check that out pretty thoroughly to make sure that you don’t get bitten by it.

          2. Snazzy Hat*

            therefore it is necessary to check that out pretty thoroughly to make sure that you don’t get bitten by it.

            “I’m sorry, but in accordance with our CYA clause, I will need to conduct due diligence on the price.”

            Seriously, if you do what you’re supposed to do, what can he do to retaliate??? Jerk.

  31. References*

    I have an interview soon for a position that I was encouraged to apply for by a former coworker (we’re both at new organizations now). The catch is my manager from where we worked together isn’t a good reference because I was going through some mental health issues and started to have issues come up with my performance (I don’t dispute that I started to slide but I know my manager was going through some personal issues and it was affected her judgement). I took a new job because my job there was in serious jeopardy. I was there 2.5 years (the coworker left 8 months before I did), there’s no gap in my job history, and I left for a position with more responsibility so it doesn’t look bad on the surface.

    But I don’t know how to get around the fact that I won’t get good reference from my former manager that my former coworker knows. I haven’t spoken with my former manager since I left but I did inquire about a reference while I was there just to see and she more or less said that she could give some strengths but because of the circumstances she suggested it would be best for me to not list her. I can’t really give a reason why not to contact my former manager since my former coworker knows her and I’m seriously concerned it would cost me an offer. I know not to count my chickens before they hatch but I believe I’m a really strong contender for the position because I always produced excellent work for my former coworker. This job is really important to me because I’m in a really toxic environment now and I don’t really have any other options for the foreseeable future (it’s a long story). How do I get around this bad reference?

    1. ASJ*

      Could you contact this manager and ask her to give a very basic reference (like, confirming dates of employment and nothing else)?

    2. Biff*

      Can you ask that they also speak to your former coworker to get a more ’rounded’ picture? And then ask the coworker to bring up that the manager was having an emotional time when you both worked there? I can see how that would give the hiring manager the idea that perhaps ex-manager isn’t the best judge of your capabilities.

      1. References*

        Thank you for your help. My former coworker is the hiring manger although I will report to someone else (they’re also hiring for that position). I’m hoping that she won’t even do a reference check or that the organization will only do a date of employment type check. My former manager has an amazing reputation and I’m not sure that this suggestion would work in this situation. I think it’s a great suggestion though.

        1. Biff*

          Oh dear. It’s always bad when someone who actually has a lot of issues/is a terribly manager has a sterling reputation.

        2. Kalli*

          Your former coworker probably has enough information to see through anything the former manager says, since they know you.

  32. TheLazyB*

    Someone I know at work sent me a link for an internal job post this week saying she thought it was very me. It is, but I’ve only been in my current job just over a year, and it’s not really where my career path has been going until this point. There’s been a ton of change in my team recently and I am now the only person who knows in detail how one of our work tasks works…. So from my teams point of view it would be pretty bad if I went. However it looks like my directorate is going to shrink and i think my job would be an obvious cut.

    I’m going to apply, but I’m really nervous…. I kind of think I could be really good, and it does look like an exciting opportunity that would rejuvenate my career path….. but it would be a bit of a stretch.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?

    1. notfunny.*

      Apply and see what happens! It sounds like it would be a good opportunity to find out more about this option, and then you can think more carefully about whether it’s a stretch you’d like. There will never be a good time to leave a job but you have to put yourself and your career first (because your workplace is not going to do that). Good luck!

    3. designbot*

      At this point it’s just a conversation. It doesn’t mean it’ll be offered, and it doesn’t mean you have to take it if it is. No harm in having a conversation with a team that you think will appreciate what you can offer.

    4. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

      Oh interesting that you all say the same thing. I’m sure I remember Alison saying at some point that if you get offered an internal job you’d have to have an extremely good reason not to take it so I think I heard that as you’d better be pretty interested before you apply. I am going to… but I’m nervous!

      Should I offered the post (which is unlikely but stranger things have happened….) I would try and negotiate an extra week’s notice period (5 instead of 4) so I can make sure everything is documented and handed over the best of my ability.

      Thanks, always helpful to have a place too think these things through.

      1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

        Part of my wariness is that the recruitment process will be application form+ one interview so there’s not really time to drop out…

      2. anon again*

        With an internal position you may already have knowledge of the company and it’s culture, but there may still be things about the new position or department that you could only learn through the interview process. So still do much of the same due diligence you would if applying at a difference company to learn all you can about the position you’re applying for and the team you’d be working with.

        And don’t be afraid to turn down the offer if it really doesn’t seem to be the best option for you. It’s better to turn it down than have it not work out. I’ve turned down internal offers in the past, or self-selected out during the process, if it really wasn’t what I wanted to do. The hiring managers seemed appreciative that I was honest about my reasons for declining and It never seemed to impact my ability to apply to other internal openings in the future.

    5. JennyFair*

      Do you have the option of a pre-application meeting with the hiring manager? I know I’ve done those in the past, just a coffee type meeting to discuss the job and how it would suit me. Depending on where you work, this can be a benefit to applying for an internal promotion/transfer.

      Good luck :)

      1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

        Unfortunately not, I’ve been working at home this week and the deadline is this weekend. Shame as otherwise that would have been really helpful.

    6. Merry and Bright*

      I would say definitely go for it, especially if the opportunity looks exciting. I had a feeling of deja vu reading this because I was in exactly the same position a few months ago.

      My old directorate was full of restructure rumours (which look like coming to pass as it happens). My line manager sent me a link to a vacancy in a separate directorate. I went through my usual “Could I do this?” routine for a few days then decided to give it a shot. I locked myself down for the weekend and threw everything at it. Doing the online application seemed to take forever but then I was pacing myself over the two days (and drank so much tea in the process).

      I was pleasantly surprised to get an interview. I was the only person being interviewed that day and the interview over-ran by 45 minutes which my manager said was a good sign. Maybe he was right because the following afternoon HR called and offered me the job. It’s going fine so far.

      One advantage you have as an internal candidate is you are already familar with the organisation’s culture and so on, so you can concentrate more on the actual team and really tailor your own questions. I found this a big help.

      I can identify with everything you have said but best of luck if you decide to do it. You will probably rock it :)

      1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

        Thank you i really appreciate that! :)

    7. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

      Working on my application now. Scary but exciting.

    8. catsAreCool*

      If your job is likely to be cut, anyone should understand why you’d look into transferring.

  33. MsMaryMary*

    A few months ago, my company interviewed several candidates for an open position. One of them had strong qualifications, but we had other candidates whose experience was a better fit for our position. The candidate we rejected found a different position, and she just hired our company to replace one of her existing vendors (it’s not unusual in my industry for people to go from in-house teapot managers to external teapot consultants, and vice versa). She specifically said that she was so impressed with our organizaation during the interview process that we were the first name she thought of when it became clear they needed a new vendor.

    I thought both job seekers and hiring managers would appreciate the story. You never know how the situation might change and the power might shift. Yesterday’s candidate might be tomorrow’s client!

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      That’s so awesome! Thanks for sharing that- I think people need to know the good stuff comes back around if you dole it out.

  34. WGU?*

    So I’m thinking about furthering my education, I would have to do so online because I work full time. Does anyone have a degree from Western Governors University and if you do or know someone who does what did you think of it? And for those hiring manager out there what’s your opinion of a degree from them?

    1. Teapot Project Coordinator*

      Oh yes! I’ve been considering Western Governor’s too!
      VERY interested to hear what hiring managers think of it and anyone who already has a degree from WGU if it’s been beneficial.
      Also, I have a co-worker who is working on his degree through WGU and he seems to enjoy the six month semester format a lot, says it helps balance working full time and having an under-one-year-old son.
      But he hasn’t finished, so unsure if it will be “worth it” or not yet.

    2. cjb1*

      My boss has his MBA from there and was extremely pleased with it. Everyone I know of rates it the highest out of all the online schools.

    3. Pwyll*

      WGU is one of the few online universities that has regional accreditation (which is what you want, it’s the accreditation that traditional non-profit colleges get), and is non-profit. They have a really terrific reputation.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        I work in higher ed and this is SO IMPORTANT. WGU is a perfectly legitimate choice for online education, as is ASU and a few others.

    4. Yet another Allison*

      My fiance got his BSN from WGU after getting his associate degree and RN license at a community college. He was happy with the program overall, and now works at one of the most prestigious hospitals in our state. Nursing does have its own unique norms though.

    5. PeachTea*

      I considered WGU when I was looking for an online school. What shifted me to No was how their classes work. They do not have normal credit hours. They have “competency credits.” So if for whatever reason you’d need to transfer, etc… none of your credits will transfer because well, they’re not credits.

      Second, you must have every exam proctored. And by protored, I mean you must have a person watching you through the camera/remoted into your computer to show that you’re not cheating or whatever they think you might be doing. The number one reason I wanted to go to an online school in the first place was flexibility. I like being able to take an exam at 3:00am if I want to. With WGU, you have to schedule within their business hours which really is counterproductive to me.

      However, I have not heard anything negative about them from hiring managers. So it’s really your comfort with how different they do things from a traditional college.

      1. Aubergine Dreams*

        Actually, the competency credits are equal to semester credits, so they would transfer, they are just called something different. :)

        As for scheduling exams, that’s true, but they do offer a lot of times for take exams. I used to take mine between 7-9pm. I don’t know about in the middle of the night, because I never did that, but they have a lot of flexibility there.

      2. Library Director*

        We proctor for WGU at least once a week at the library. We schedule evenings, days, weekends. Yes you have someone in the room with you, but that’s pretty much the norm. When my husband was working on his JCL with the University of Lueven he had a Latin proficiency exam done by Skype. He had to pan the camera around the room to show he didn’t have cheat sheets on the walls.

    6. Aubergine Dreams*

      I have my Master’s from WGU! Some hiring managers don’t know much about the school or program, so I would say be prepared to talk about how it functions and what the benefits of it are, but in my case, the principal at my school was very familiar with WGU and thought highly of it. He said some of his best candidates came from there because they were self-motivated and knew how to find/use resources. If it wasn’t for WGU, I wouldn’t have been able to go back to school.

      You have to be self-motivated and a cheerleader for your own education at WGU. They have systems in place to help guide you, but really you are teaching yourself. This can be very frustrating sometimes.

  35. Stupid librarian??*

    Anonymous for this question, because I feel like an idiot!

    Okay, so I’m currently working as a school library technician in Canada (not sure if that’s a job title that exists in the US, but basically it’s a paraprofessional role). At the school I work at, I basically run the library. I manage the budget, do all the purchasing, catalogue books, help the student/teachers navigate the library, etc. I actually don’t mind this position, and if it paid more I’d LOVE it, but it doesn’t. Because of my “skills” I feel a very, very strong pull to go back and get my MLIS and use my skills in a proper library. I know the field isn’t very “robust” at the moment (ever?), like I completely 100% understand that. If I were to go back to grad school, I wouldn’t be taking out any loans (which I’ve heard is a no-no for an MLIS) and I can’t imagine myself going into any debt. Ideally, I’d be working part-time at the school and getting the degree part-time and I think even the union I’m in might pay for a portion of my courses.

    I know the field isn’t strong and that people struggle to get a job after getting their MLIS, but I’m really strongly pulled towards the profession. I’ve talked about this with a few colleagues who are actual librarians and while they seem hesitant about the field in general, they were positive about my chances to get a job after graduation. But I don’t know. In an ideal world I would do this, but I just wonder if I could be making an awful mistake. Any advice?

    1. Pwyll*

      My cousin has an MLIS and is really struggling to find a job. But she’s never worked in a library in any sort of professional role, except for during Grad School.

      So, I’d say that if you can go for free while you’re in your job, I don’t really see the down-side if that is the work you want to do.

    2. Jax*

      As a MLS holder in a paraprofessional position- there are jobs if you are willing to move. If you want to stay in your current location then I would talk to librarians there to get a feel for the job market. In my area at both the academic and public library, you need to get your “Librarian” experience (meaning: title on your resume) before they will consider you for Librarian positions. I don’t know how it is other places, though. I am in the US.

      I hope I don’t sound bitter- I love the experiences I’ve gotten. But I don’t think I’ve necessarily needed an MLS for them. I also have commitments to my area so right now it isn’t an option to move across the country for a job.

      1. Jax*

        Also, if you do decide to get a MLIS, I would suggest doing more than just coursework. Get involved in projects and volunteer and plan things (I don’t know what type of library you are interested in working in but things like story times, programs, digital curations). I did not do any of that while getting my degree (because I was already working full time in a library) but I think I did myself a disservice by not.

      2. Stupid librarian??*

        No, you don’t sound bitter at all! I feel very torn on what to do. Like, getting an MLIS “feels” right for me, but I seriously realize how bad the market is, which makes me hesitate. However, there are opportunities out there and people do get jobs, I think I’d be willing to relocate (I say that now, who knows about the future). I just can’t decide if the risk is worth the reward (unemployment vs a career I’d enjoy?).

        1. Catherine*

          If you would enjoy getting the degree and you can do the program without incurring debt, why not? I think you have to ask yourself, how much certainty do you need to have, that this degree will advance your career for you to still want to pursue it? Everyone is different. I work in a professional position in an academic library and am pursing a masters in a different field because even with my library experience, jobs are scarce and employers are going to want to hire someone with librarian (not just library) experience, especially where I live.

      3. Anxa*

        I don’t know how to reduce the imposter syndrome.

        At my job, I really DO feel like an imposter. I do tutoring and I have failed classes.

        Many students and my supervisor have told me I’d make a great instructor, but because of my college grades (not in the subjects I tutor) make grad school very unlikely (or at least, a major uphill battle). It’s very awkward, because even in the moments that I recognize I’m doing a great job, I still feel like I dont’ belong, since it’s hard for me to break into moving up to full time without a masters.

      4. Library Director*

        Spot on! I tell people this all the time. I’ve sent job notices to my staff for librarian jobs that pay more. I’m usually told a. I don’t want to move or b. I don’t like X aspect of the job (e.g., teaching undergraduate students). I was told from the start (the 80s) that there were no jobs in libraries. As with many careers it’s cyclical.

        In the late 90s I used to get cold calls from schools offering jobs. That dried up. A few years ago at ALA in Chicago I had universities jumping in front of me offering me jobs. Neither one happened because I’m special, but because they needed to court librarians to move. This year it was the National Library of Qatar.

        I would suggest you research Paralibrarian programs. We have a certification program with our state association. It may help clarify your goals and give you a piece of paper that’s not the MLIS, but does prove skills.

        1. Stupid librarian??*

          I already have a diploma in library & information technology, I should have stated that in my original question, sorry. So I do have training in libraries, but not quite the same as an MLIS. I feel limited as a library technician and that’s why I’m considering getting my masters.

    3. Maxine*

      I’m one of those MLIS’s who has not been able to get a job in the field (long story short, I ended up pigeonholing myself into a very specific niche and wasn’t able to make a shift after layoffs so have ended up back in legal administration. Yay?). My take on it is that your work experience in the field matters much more than the actual degree does when it comes to getting hired later on. Budgeting, purchasing, cataloging, reference, and experience with the public – all things you’ve already got going for you – will serve you well. I might suggest taking that experience and those strengths and looking for another job in a “proper library” first- one that builds on your current job duties and also pays more but does not require an MLIS. It sounds like you won’t be losing anything by pursuing this strategy, but the degree by itself may or may not help you in getting your next job.

      The MLIS is mostly a management degree, especially for those who have good library experience as you do. Management jobs will usually require one but you may be able to find something that satisfies you without it, depending on your area. I’d recommend looking closely at your job market to see if you can find a place to follow your “very, very strong pull” before deciding you need one.

    4. Nanani*

      I know people in Canada with an MLIS and the ones who have jobs at all don’t have them in their field.
      Sorry :/

      Maybe do it anyway, if you get in and don’t need loans and so on, but do so ONLY if you really want to do the degree work itself, not because you’re holding out for openings in your field.

    5. synonym rolls*

      What kind of job would you hope to get after graduation? Look online to see what jobs are currently being advertised, and where. (In the US, ALA Joblist is perfect). This will give you the best sense of the market. I’m always surprised by the number of MLS graduates who don’t do this type of research before they start school. For example, a relative of a friend just recently got his MLS and is horrified to discover that almost all the academic reference librarian positions require instruction. He had wanted to just do reference. Dude, those jobs don’t exist anymore.

      If you decide to go, definitely look for internships and volunteer opportunities to make you stand out from other graduates, as recommended above, and be prepared to move anywhere to get that first position.

      I absolutely love love love being a librarian- if you can accept the constraints and make the schooling happen, I wish you similar joy!

      1. Stupid librarian??*

        I’m pretty open to any position in the field, but what I’m most interested are areas of knowledge management, digital libraries, management of information (working with documents, records), etc. (which sounds vague….). I’m really open to non-traditional “librarian” roles. That seems the way libraries and information management are going, from my research.

        Although, lol, I’m sure that my current experience would make me suitable for a children’s/youth librarian position (yikes!!!).

        1. Research Assistant*

          I have no idea what the market is like now, but this is something to think about. I have a number of relatives with an MLIS, but the only one who could ever find a job in the field was my grandmother, who worked for many years as a corporate librarian for a large engineering company. I have two aunts with the degree as well; one has a business doing editing and indexing and the other (who went to school to be a children’s librarian) works as a teacher’s aide. My grandmother has been retired since the 90’s so I don’t know how much current demand there is, but if you’re open to non-traditional roles then you should look into corporate librarianship where you work in information management rather than running a normal library. Best of luck!

        2. cardiganed librarian*

          I’m an MLIS-holding library tech in Canada. My gut feeling is, if you don’t particularly care for the librarian job title, the MLIS won’t help you that much. I went to library school with archives experience, planning to do records/information management, but I ended up taking co-ops that related more to traditional librarianship and then, without direct experience, I found my MLIS was worthless in the IM world. I put out dozens of applications for “information specialist”-type jobs and never got an interview for a single one.

          My feeling now that I have steady employment in a library is that it’s best to get into records at the ground floor. I am now overqualified for records clerk jobs, and don’t want to take the pay cut to start there anyway. You’re probably in the same situation, but if you do think you want to do records management, maybe try to transition directly. You could then see if the MLIS would help. Again, with the benefit of hindsite and bitterness ;) I feel like a lib tech diploma plus a business or IT degree would be much more useful in non-traditional information jobs. I think the MLIS tends to signal to employers that you want to be a library manager.

          And yes, my first thought was that a former school library tech would be a great children’s librarian. Sorry! Are you in the Atlantic provinces, by any chance? (I ask because in some provinces, school librarians tend to be B.Ed + certification, not lib techs.) I am as well and have witnessed the gutting of school libraries due to demographic decline, and I totally understand why you would want out.

    6. fposte*

      When it comes to hiring in libraries, opportunities vary by specialization and region. In my state, the challenge is that a lot of schools don’t have money, so they’re hiring paraprofessionals like you (or making a teacher do double duty) rather than hiring a credentialed librarian. However, our school media graduates are still finding jobs–but they’re on the lucky end of the national scale. One problem in the US is that there can be state licensure involved, so that a candidate may not be able to search in another state; if that’s true for provinces, that can be a significant limit on your job search (though provinces generally cover a lot more ground than states!).

      Would the school you’re working at be interested in having you back as a librarian? Sometimes wanting the person is enough for them to raise the standard of the position. We frequently have graduates going back as librarians to schools and public libraries where they worked as techs or paraprofessionals.

      1. Stupid librarian??*

        Yeah, I don’t think I know of any professional librarians who work in schools in Canada (actually, I think I know of ONE who works for the same school board I do). I’m not sure if my school would have me back as a librarian, we’re getting a new principal this year, so I’m not quite sure about him yet. If worst comes to worst, I would definitely consider that.

        I would really like to get a more substantial role in the field, though. As much as I enjoy my position, I feel that I could go further in the field with an MLIS. Although that really depends on the opportunities that exist for librarians.

        Something about going for the MLIS feels really “right” to me, but then I think about the unemployment horror stories. Trust me, I’m aware of how terrible the field is. Part of me wants to do it anyway, which I don’t understand.

        1. Ann*

          The field isn’t that bad in Canada, honestly. There are still more libraries in North America than McDonalds so there are jobs – but you’re right a lot are done by techs and other paraprofessionals. I’d go to school if you are interested and able to – worst case scenario is you lose some earned income while in class. Talk to placement officers at Western or other highly regarded Canadian schools if you are worried

          1. Stupid librarian??*

            I’ve gotten the impression that the field isn’t as terrible in Canada as the US (but still, it’s not great), as well. This is such a tough decision, so many pros and cons in each direction. And I know of people who’ve got their masters in the last few years who have gotten decent positions. Now, a lot of people don’t end up getting a position, that’s true… but I still find that encouraging?

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      If you can do it without leaving your job, without taking out loans, and possibly getting it at least partially paid for I don’t see a downside.

    8. Anonacat*

      I’m bummed out that you’re basically already working as a Library Manager/Librarian, but not getting paid for it …
      As someone who worked in libraries for several years, I’d advise getting the MLIS only if you’re more interested in the tech side of librarianship. ‘Traditional’ librarianship is very much in decline, although with your work experience, you’d be better placed than most. (I have heard that some people go to library school without ever having working in the field!)

      1. Stupid librarian??*

        Lol, don’t get me started on my position! I’m actually really interested in the tech side of libraries and because I know that area is really where lots of the jobs are going, I’d be willing to learn more about it and take the relevant tech courses. I don’t have much interest in being a reference librarian (lol).

    9. Seal*

      I was a paraprofessional for many years before I finally got my MLIS. For me, the deciding factor was that there are far more opportunities for even mediocre librarians than there ever will be for the best paraprofessionals. I was sick and tired of watching absolute idiots move up and get paid more than I was just because they had that little piece of paper. Other librarians have likened an MLIS to getting your union card; in most cases, it’s something you need to have in order to work librarian.

      Also, I worked full time as a paraprofessional while going to library school. I found that my work experience was excellent preparation for my course work. In fact, the people that did the best in library school and beyond tended to be those who had already worked in a library at some point.

  36. NoOneKnowsWhyTheCagedBirdSings*

    Another week has gone by and I’m feeling incredibly stuck AGAIN. I had practically nothing to do all week. I try to find things to do but there’s just nothing. Even when I try to do different things that I think would be helpful, I’m discouraged to do them because I’m just a secretary. I’m so frustrated. *heavy sigh*

    1. vpc*

      My solution to this was to sign up for free online courses, like through Coursera — I did things that interested me, but could be related to the business environment, so no one would question me working on them. And you can always pause the videos / come back to an exercise later when something does come up.

  37. Marzipan*

    I got the last mark back for the secret Open University degree* I’ve been doing for the last five years, so it’s done and I got a first! (I think the US equivalent would be a 4.0 GPA?)

    I had sort of planned to reveal it to the world at this point, ta-da! – but now I think I’ll do a Master’s, and people will clearly guess about a secret Master’s if they know I just finished a secret Bachelor’s, so maybe I’ll keep my mouth shut for another couple of years…

    (*Not secret for any reason other than it amused me. I do have a BA already, so doing this one has basically been a hobby.)

    2. Caledonia*

      Oh you go Marzipan!!
      Smart lady, you.

      (I think I’m going to end up with a 2:2, which is fine because I’m not a natural student and my brother got the same.)

    4. Expected to pay more than my fair share*

      I get the amusement factor. My husband never told anyone at work when I was pregnant with our first child. So when he brought in the requisite donuts to celebrate there was a lot of surprised people.

  38. Delilah*

    How normal is it for employers to be really rigid with interview times? On Tuesday I had a company (that I’m excited about!) contact me to schedule an in-person interview. They gave me the options of next Tuesday afternoon or next Wednesday afternoon. I let them know I’m out of town on a business trip both of those days and asked if it was possible to schedule a time for later this week (now past), later next week, or early the following week. They told me they were only interviewing candidates next Tuesday and Wednesday and that’s it.

    I was thankfully able to schedule a Skype interview for next Tuesday and work this meeting into the business trip, but should I be expecting this much rigid scheduling from other potential interviewers? I haven’t interviewed in about 6 or 7 years.

    1. Pwyll*

      I’d say it’s not entirely uncommon. If they were absolutely unwilling to make any accommodation, I think it’d be a huge red flag. But, it sounds like they’ve set aside those days as interview days for busy managers and were willing to make it work via Skype instead of in-person, so I think it makes it less of a red flag than it’d normally be.

    2. Dawn*

      Very. Depending on their hiring timeline and how many people need to be there for the interview it can be super rigid.

    3. Jen*

      Not uncommon for some places. They might be flying execs or other non locals in to do interviews, or at minimum clearing schedules for a round. Maybe the hiring manager or others doing the process have crammed schedules and are really difficult to work around.

      That said, not everywhere is like that. The more people you interview with the less likely they are to be flexible.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      That’s extremely common. Hiring managers are often busy enough that they can really only arrange to be free for interviews at very certain times.

    5. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

      My current job stated the date of interviews in the advert. Only four of the nine interviewed candidates interviewed on that date (because of the candidates not being available), so I had to wait an entire week to hear I’d got the job.

      Interestingly the successful candidates both interviewed on the date listed….. make of that what you will!!

    6. Jennifer*

      I’ve been told “make it at 2 p.m. on Wednesday or that’s it, we’re only interviewing on one day.” They don’t even offer a choice of time any more. So yes, that’s typical now.

  39. straordinaria*

    I’ve been offered an internship in a major international institution starting in autumn — so excited! One problem: it’s my first ‘professional’ role, it’ll involve moving internationally by plane, and I have NO IDEA what clothes to start stocking up on in advance. (I’m currently a postgrad student, living in skinny jeans, Doc Martens/Nikes and t-shirts which really need replacing.) There isn’t really a dress code, as it all depends on the department – I’ll be in communications. I don’t want to be overdressed having spent a fortune on unnecessary business wear, but I also don’t want to get pulled up about being unprofessional. It would also be great if my work clothes could double up as outfits outside work as much as possible (as I’ll probably be limited to 2 suitcases).

    Obviously I’ll take a couple of suits for conferences, important meetings, etc., but could anyone give me an idea of what constitutes a basic, not-super-formal “beginners” work wardrobe: clothes, shoes, accessories? (I’m UK-based, if that helps.)

    1. Slippy*

      Congrats! Either call or shoot them an email. The dress code is a reasonable question to ask, but always overdress (suit) your first day since first impressions and all that.

    2. Marzipan*

      I’d just recommend going with plain things. Assuming we’re talking women’s clothes, I’d hit up Primark and get some plain black or grey trousers (you can get them for like four quid) and some tops (preferably not too flowery, and not t-shirts or similar) to go with them, and that’ll take you a long way.

      1. Marzipan*

        Actually, Next are really good for smart-but-interesting things, if you’re up for spending slightly more.

        2. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

          Next is my usual work-wear place and I think I get the type of stuff you’re after. Also I’ve had extremely good luck in charity shops. I interviewed in a charity shop Next dress and recently was complimented on it by my team’s manager. I have two black jackets from an Oxfam shop in a posh area, cost £30 total so not mega cheap but cheaper than brand new. I’ve also had some luck in H&M and Dorothy Perkins but I find them rather hit and miss, not found anything in either my last couple of visits.

          Also congrats :)

    3. Becky with the anonymous hair*

      I work for the major international instituion that you probably think of when someone says major international institution, and the dress code is ridiculously casual. Unless you’re going to Geneva, take just a couple of outfits and shop when you get there and can see what’s normal.

  40. bassclefchick*

    Oh, my goodness. My new job starts Monday! SO excited. I’ll have a day and a half of orientation. I know I can do this. But, I’ve never worked in healthcare before. And my last permanent job ended with me being fired and then getting stuck as a temp for 5 years. I’m mostly feeling terrified. My basic job will be to schedule patients for their rehab appointments. Sounds easy, right? But I REALLY don’t want to fall into the same pattern of having a job for a couple of years and then losing it and then getting sucked back into temping. So, yeah. Terrified is the right word. Please send all the calming and encouraging thoughts my way as I start this new chapter!

    1. babblemouth*

      Congratulations!

      Two things to remember: plan your Monday outfit on Sunday afternoon, and go to bed early! (I’m sure you’ve thought of these already).

      1. bassclefchick*

        Thanks! Monday is an orientation day and my HR rep told me to dress business casual. I’ve had the outfit planned for a week. Because I’m paranoid that way. LOL I just need to remember to take a deep breath and do my best.

      2. Yep, me again*

        don’t stress it. If they didn’t want you, they wouldn’t hire you.

        Congrats!

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      Congratulations! When you’re learning stuff, take notes. It sounds obvious on the surface, but you don’t want to be so nervous during your new phase that you worry about coming across as ignorant. You are ignorant, they know this, everyone deals. My last two jobs, I took lots of notes and periodically asked, “okay, this is what I have so far…” especially if I was doing a brand new task or project such as analyzing data that I didn’t even know we collected. At first there were times I was worried I would be seen as “too detailed” or “high maintenance”, but eventually that evolved into knowing I could do the job correctly the first time and having proof that my supervisors & coworkers knew I could do it correctly too. Think “dedicated” over “nit-picky”, perfect audits, efficient workflow, etc.

      You mention fearing a pattern of job loss; please try to separate ~why you got fired~ from ~challenges this new job may pose~. Hypothetically, if I were fired from a CS job for angrily swearing at a customer, and months later I got a job as an order picker at a warehouse, I have no chance of being fired for the same reason if I never interact with customers in any way. Crashing a vehicle into the storage racks may be grounds for firing, but knowing that fact will encourage me to be a safe driver.

      {waves more pom-poms}

  41. Tuckerman*

    Co-supervising!
    I co-supervise interns in a highly specialized field. I work more in operations and have limited industry knowledge (just what I’ve gained from work experience), while my co-supervisor (“Kim”) has industry specific knowledge and credentials. Supervising can be challenging because while I can do a fair amount of coordinating and assisting interns with managing projects, I can’t really teach them a lot of the industry specific skills they need to learn. I have to ask other staff to do that. The reason I’m part of the supervisory team, as I understand, is that I have lots of supervisory experience and my manager likes how I supervise. The problem is, I keep taking the lead on supervising because 1) It’s hard to co-supervise equally and 2) Kim doesn’t seem to want to take the lead. I’m planning to leave this job this year and my manager wants me to make sure someone is cross-trained in everything I do.
    How can I nudge Kim to take the lead? Or should I even nudge her to take the lead?

    1. Pwyll*

      I would try pretty hard NOT to have this forced on an employee who doesn’t want it, for the sake of the interns. Instead, why not talk to your boss about the transition and ask whether they’re planning to bring on someone with supervisory experience who can take over the day-to-day management, while continuing to leave the technical mentoring to the professional staff?

      I used to manage the workload of interns, but I wasn’t a specialist in their work. So, I spent a lot of time keeping track of what they were assigned, and discussing how they should go about getting the information they need. “Kim assigned you to paint the teapot. Did you ask her what color? Or what type of paint? Sometimes at work people ask you to do things without realizing you may not have the details, so it’s okay to ask.”-type stuff. While I made sure the intern was DOING the work, it was up to my “Kim” to actually supervise the CONTENT of that work, because I didn’t make teapots. So, a better question is whether there is someone else around after you leave who can handle the administrative-part of managing the interns. And it may not hurt to clarify with Kim that her role is really meant to be a mentor for teapot making.

      1. Tuckerman*

        Thanks for your input. You bring up a really good point about making sure interns have someone enthusiastic about supervising once I’m gone. It sounds like we were in a similar situation, focusing more on the administrative aspect of supervising than project content. I do assign a lot of the intern’s work, but the less technical kind. To clarify, there is no one else with supervisory experience in our department, and we’re on an indefinite hiring freeze. Also, I have a lot of faith in Kim and I think she wants to be a good supervisor, but hasn’t had much mentoring. We also get really high quality interns who are pretty easy to supervise. Maybe I’ll talk to Kim and ask what she needs from me so when this gets handed off to her she’ll be confident she has all the information she needs. We’re already working on a manual together.

        1. Pwyll*

          That makes a lot of sense. Our program got 100 times better when I met with “Kim” and explained that she needed to assume our interns didn’t know anything about teapots and explain things, but that I would take care of managing the workflow and deadlines and troubleshooting. It was a huge load off her mind knowing that she didn’t need to do all of the management stuff that “wasn’t her job” and could just focus on being a pro. And bonus, most professionals I know LOVE to talk about their work, so it just works (with the right foundation and support).

          Good luck!

  42. ACA*

    Just a bit of a rant about frustrating situation at work this week. Since the beginning of June, I’ve been trying to schedule a training class (to be held at the end of August), but my contact in the department kept stringing me along all month and refusing to finalize the info. At a certain point, I thought we had the date confirmed (I assumed wrongly) and were just trying to see if they could do an afternoon class instead of a morning one. Nope! And it turns out, they don’t even do afternoon sessions at all, ever – though why it took her a month for me to get that information, I have no idea. So we scheduled the class for the date we wanted but at a time that only half our students can make, because that was the best we could do. And at the end of all this, she has the nerve to tell me that next time, I should make sure to schedule several months in advance! Lady, if you had told me the info I needed in June, we wouldn’t even be having this problem!

  43. Natalie*

    I got a new job! Sort of at the last minute, actually – I’d already decided to finish my classes full time as a last resort, so I’d put in my notice already. I just changed the date (and dropped a bunch of my classes for next semester). And I have a week off between them, hurray!

    I have been at my current company since I graduated from college 8 years ago, so this will be a big change.

    1. fposte*

      So this year is new house, new marriage, and new job year! Very exciting–I hope you enjoy them all very much.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m actually just over the one year mark in my house, but close enough. Also, new dog. :)

  44. Amy S*

    Looking for advice on how to deal with an unhelpful vendor.

    We ordered some new furniture which was delivered just over a week ago. Some of the chairs we received turned out to be very uncomfortable. The backs provide no support and are too short, the cushions are flat and hard. I cringe at the thought of asking guests to sit in these awful chairs.

    I told our vendor of my concerns and asked what our options were. He responded that the chairs were non stock items and therefore were not returnable, refundable or exchangeable. I was pretty taken aback by his response. I read the sales order form and saw the policy to be true, which sucks. I didn’t fully realize this when placing the order – I thought the larger furniture which had to be specially ordered and assembled in pieces could not be returned. Surely some chairs could be taken back, but per the vendor, this is not the case.

    I let him know of my unhappiness with this situation, and told him it was unfortunate they couldn’t do anything because these chairs will not be used. I have received no response. I understand the policy, but this guy has an unhappy customer on his hands and is hiding being the policy to avoid having to do anything. Should I call the store and ask to speak to his supervisor? If so, any thoughts on what I should say?

    1. KR*

      I think you’re stuck with the chairs. To you it seems like he’s hiding behind the policy, but he probably can’t do anything to change the policy or bend it, so he’s trying to signal to you that there’s nothing that can be done. Could you try selling them or putting them somewhere where people don’t usually sit, but it seems like there should be a chair?

      1. Amy S*

        These chairs were pretty expensive, so we would probably be more inclined to sell them than put them elsewhere in the office. We also have limited space and I’m not sure where else they might go.

        I guess this is the first time I’ve ever had an experience like this where the vendor won’t try to do anything to fix the problem. This particular furniture vendor also buys and sells used furniture and he didn’t even offer to buy it back (although it may be up to me to look into that).

        I feel like this policy encourages poor customer service, but maybe I’m way off base here. I just know if we had a customer claim they disliked a product we made or delivered, we would try to work with them to fix the issue. Not simply day “sorry, nothing we can do here.”

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          It’s not all that uncommon with furniture vendors, to be honest; I deal with enough chargebacks going to them! Especially if they weren’t stock items, they become difficult for the vendor to move and/or stock for later sale.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      First off, what you’re dealing with here, I believe, is non stock items that were ordered for you, so there are costs, maybe considerable, to the vendor if they do take the chairs back and have to send them back to their supplier. At least: shipping and delivery to them, delivery to you, retrieval from you, shipping back to the supplier and any restocking fees that the supplier imposes. I don’t know how many chairs you ordered, costs, bulkiness, but it could be hundreds of dollars so that’s to keep in mind as you approach them again.

      Reflect on the process and where things could have gone better. Do you think the chairs were not described properly? Were promises made that weren’t fulfilled?

      If you can’t (in true honesty) come up with a legitimate instance of how the vendor’s process led to your dissatisfaction, then one of the things you can do is to offer to pay a restocking fee if they will take the chairs back. If you approach the salesperson’s boss with an attitude of participating in the solution, you may have a result you can live with.

      (This happens in our world at least once a month where a customer has not understood what they are ordering OR did understand but didn’t communicate to other decision makers properly and then suffers buyer’s remorse. There’s not anything we can do with $3000 worth of teapots with Stark Enterprises printed on them; no they aren’t returnable . We DO however work with customers who come to us with a cooperative attitude and can help them solve their problem if they participate in the cost.)

      1. Dawn*

        Oh man Wakeen you hit the ball outta the park with this one. Thank you for suggesting the wording that I couldn’t come up with for my post!

      2. Amy S*

        We have ordered furniture from this vendor before, but it has been several years. We ordered desks and chairs that are similar to what we already have. We saw a picture of the chairs in a catalogue, and assumed they would be like our current chairs. We did not expect them to be so uncomfortable, as the comfort level is extremely different from the previous chairs.

        We are willing to work with this guy – we are talking about six chairs here, and we can even take them back to the store if that helps. I understand if we can’t get a full refund, but the bottom line is this is not what we were expecting. He also has been unhelpful in other ways – I feel like he has blown me off and acts like we are a small account not really worth his time. This has not really helped me form a positive opinion of him from the get go.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          I’m sympathetic. We have to deal with business customers ordering from website/catalog and we make a living off of trying to meet customer’s expectations 100% of the time. To do that, we have to first understand their expectations as well as understand our products. If we just let everybody order whatever shiny product, we’d have a lot more cranky customers than we do.

          So… I’m sympathetic because I’m not hearing a lot of effort on the vendor’s part.

          Anyway, pursue it above your guy but I suggest a “what can we do together to solve this problem” approach, which doesn’t mean you have to offer to pay anything up front, just the attitude itself may get you what you need.

          (And they CAN return them, of course they can. It’s all just a matter of what it costs to do so and who pays how much of it.)

          1. Amy S*

            Thanks for your input. I’ll definitely try to approach it with the right attitude. I don’t expect him to work miracles or anything, but I would like to see some effort on his part to at least work with me on figuring out a solution.

      3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

        My favorite story in the regard:

        University program ordered a combination headphone/microphone set with their logo on it. It was a pricey piece, $60 sell, total order over $5000. First we sent a sample (free), then after they ordered sent a product proof with their logo on it (free), for them to approve before we ran the order. They approved everything, order ran, order delivered.

        Three weeks later the contact us with a pretty abrupt “We are returning the order.” Get to the bottom of it, it turned out they were buying the product for (whatever kind of) conferencing and the headphone/microphone set did not work on the device that people were using. Even though they had two samples over the course of weeks, and even though they approved the samples, nobody ever actually tried the samples for their intended use.

        So we spend hundreds of dollars sending them samples, they never tried them, and they expected us to eat $5000. “But it’s grant money!” Yeah well, that 5k is “money to pay salaries for the people who worked so hard on your order!”

        Anyway, no matter what the reason a customer finds themselves in jam, we’re happy to help them solve the problem if they’ll work with us.

        1. Amy S*

          Ugh what a pain! How could they not even test it once?

          Really commendable that you guys still did what you could to make the customer happy.

    3. Dawn*

      1) You didn’t realize the no-refund/no-exchange policy on the order you placed, which is *your* mistake, not the vendor’s.
      2) The vendor isn’t “hiding behind the policy”, he’s stating the terms of the contract that you entered into at the time you purchased the chairs, and his hands are likely tied.
      3) If you go over his head and speak with his supervisor, you’re going to be taking the “I’m a customer and I’m always right, even when I didn’t fully read and understand the contract that I signed, and I demand an exception be made” stance. Is that a stance you want to take in this situation?
      4) If you do go over his head to speak with his supervisor, are you comfortable burning a bridge with this vendor if the supervisor does not give you what you want? Because if you double down and the supervisor does say “no, sorry, that’s the policy” then you will be forever known as high-maintenance by this vendor (at least, that’s my guess having been in the vendor’s shoes in this situation.)

      Bottom line- is the monetary value of these chairs worth the possibility of burning a bridge with this vendor?

      1. Amy S*

        1) Yes, I understand this. And I made this he clear to the vendor (“I didn’t understand this and that was my mistake.”)
        2) We didn’t fully understand the policy, in that when he verbalized it to us, it sounded like it only applied to the larger furniture that required assembly. Should have asked for clarification, but didn’t. Half the chairs we ordered are returnable (the ones we like), and half the chairs we ordered are not (the ones we hate). I suppose after seeing the sales order form, I could have asked him to point out which items were returnable and which items were not. This was my first experience and I will take it as a learning experience moving forward. Will probably not be buying non stock furniture ever again.
        3) I’m considering going over his head because he hasn’t responded to my last email, which was very polite and in no way demanding. I will try calling him if I don’t hear back by Monday.
        4) If it comes to that, I am fine with burning the bridge. There are other vendors in the area and I am already working with someone else on getting a new conference table. We only reached out to this guy because we worked with him before, 7-8 years ago.

        1. Dawn*

          Welp, I say go over his head and then go find a new vendor! From your clarification posts above it definitely sounds like he didn’t do a great job of letting you know what was and was not returnable, and you aren’t pleased with his customer service. I really don’t get why he didn’t do the totally basic step of “Thanks, Amy, before I put this through let me go through exactly what is non-refundable about this purchase so you can be exactly sure that you’ll get what you want.” That seems like a no-brainer to me!

            1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

              You aren’t the first or 100th customer they’ve had who has received furniture from them who has sat on it and said “this is not what I thought it would be at all”. That’s the nature of what they DO, and what they are paid to do and they should be anticipating issues within the pre sales process.

              Yes, you have a part because you made assumptions, but it’s not like they gave you two free sample chairs and you never sat in them first, either. ;)

  45. Dave*

    My job hunt after getting laid off a few weeks ago continues. I’ve had some interest—I had an interview earlier in the week and have another one later this week. The first one went very well. They don’t have any positions open but based on my resume and cover letter and the interview they said they’d like to create a position for me, assuming I don’t cost too much. I sent them what I thought was a fair salary based on some research I did and now am playing the waiting game.

    The second one has me feeling weird. A friend works at the company and I am sure he vouched for me. But after researching what the company does a bit, I don’t know that I could work there for ethical reasons. (I don’t want to get too far into it here, but let’s just say it troubles my own personal ethics.) So I’m not sure. The job in and of itself sounds great but I don’t know if I could do the specific job for this specific company. Sigh.

    I’ve had a few other LinkedIn notifications from people who work at places I’ve applied, but that’s about it. The first meeting was certainly encouraging, and I’ve had two other places tell me they love my skill set but just can’t hire me right now.

    1. fposte*

      Bummer about the layoff, Dave, but it sounds like you’re getting some good possibilities out of the gate. I know that it’s awkward when there’s an ethical component, but hopefully the first job will give you a great offer and it’ll be a moot point.

  46. babblemouth*

    I’ve just received a really really good half-year review from my boss, and the department I work in is probably going to go through a re-org within the next six months. My manager has basically told me that I have a very good shot at a promotion, and asked to think about what I would like to do. It’s fantastic on the one hand, but on the other hand, I don’t know where to start! I’m basically asked to imagine my dream job, but it’s hard to do that when I don’t know how the whole re-org is going to go.

    Any tips to start my reflection?

    1. JaneB*

      What parts in f your current job do you want me o do more of? What ch parts do you want to do less of? Imagine each task was going to be given to a new hire – which ones are you upset to lose?

      Where do you want to be in 3-5 years? How could you move towards that – harder projects, management opportunities Es, liaising with particular other teams or clients…

      If you can tell your boss what you want more of, where you think your strengths are, where your interests lie, then they can look at options within the reorganisation process…

      1. Ama*

        These are all great questions. Something else that might help is looking at job listings for comparable/slightly larger orgs — are there positions that really catch your eye? My org is planning for some major growth in the next two years, and I will probably see the area I cover split off into a few different positions — looking at how bigger orgs structure jobs in their versions of my department has given me a lot of food for thought into the ways we could consider restructuring when we get to that point.

    2. Belle diVedremo*

      Additional questions
      Where does the work you do go, and what part of the next steps is of interest to you?
      Eg, if you write content, does editing content pieces look interesting?

      Enjoy the compliment!

  47. Librarian Ish*

    Hello all! Are there any science librarians here?

    I currently work as a library paraprofessional. I’m happy with my job as is, but I know that if I ever want to move up or out, I’ll need an MLS or MLIS. I’m beginning to do research on grad schools but I’m pretty overwhelmed at the variety of specializations available. How do you choose? I have a BA in chemistry, so something with a more technical/research bent sounds ideal. Thoughts?

    (also ideas on how to have the money to go to grad school would be amazing. Short of selling my eggs, y’know?)

    1. bb-great*

      Maybe you’d be interested in research data curation/management/archiving? If you haven’t already, go find the blog Hack Library School; they have a post about data curation and many, many other lib school topics that might be helpful.

      The money problem is a big one. There is virtually no funding available for MLIS degrees and the field tends not to pay that well even if you do find a job (although if you do have solid tech/qualitative skills you may be better off than most). The best advice here is just to limit cost from the outset as much as possible. Can you do in-state tuition? Can you do an online program so you can continue to work and take classes part time?

    2. LabTech*

      Not a librarian, but one of my classmates in a similar position (Chemistry BS in a library positions) pursued restoration-type work.

  49. vpc*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread to go live this week! Readers, I have a question with some long-winded context. I’ve already made my decision, but what would YOU do?
    I received a job offer this week, a position in another department within our mid-size (about 15K employees, 12K US-based and 3K international) company. My current position was able to match the offer. Should I stay or should I go?
    Job A (my current position, where I have been for six years)
    • Has a body of work that I know well; I am respected as a leader among my peers, and my managers think highly of me. To put it into Chocolate Teapots: I make the best-ever milk chocolate teapots, all the people I work with tell me so and ask for advice on how to make theirs better, and I’ve been able to play with dark chocolate and white chocolate for the last year too.
    • Is a client-facing position, advising others on how to improve what they do in our technical areas
    • Includes opportunities to grow new skills on the operational/implementation side, which will be an asset in future career steps. Now we’re talking about mint-swirl teapots with strawberry dippers. Not a hypothetical opportunity – we already have a plan in place to do this, starting this month, gradually increasing my involvement over the next 6-12 months.
    • Is contained within a department that is new-ish and may not survive the anticipated change of leadership in the next year (although the work will certainly survive, just in a different place on the org chart).
    • Current Boss A is widely acknowledged by current supervisees, me included, to be a fantastic leader and manager with a real focus on building her employees’ skills and training them with an eye to their long-term career growth and potential. Current bosses B, C, and D are cut from the same mold. Yes, I am matrix-managed, and that works for me.
    Job B (the new position)
    • Has a body of work that is substantially related to the kind of work I do now. There will be a significant learning curve on the 30% of the job that is a growth area for me, and the hiring manager and I discussed this during the second interview – he has no reservations about my ability to learn it, his only concern is that I will be frustrated by the six months or so it takes before I can be a fully-functioning team member with my own project load. (I know it’ll be fine; that’s part of taking a new position.) This is chocolate tea services, not teapots, and I’ve got to learn about sugar bowls and cream pitchers.
    • Is an internally-facing position, working across the company to improve what other departments do in our technical areas
    • Includes the opportunity to grow new skills on the strategy / budgeting side, which will be an asset in future career steps. This is chocolate coffeepots!
    • Is contained within a unit operating out of the C-suite, which may acquire a new name in the coming leadership change but is unlikely to move positions on the org chart
    • New Boss A is widely acknowledged by mutual acquaintances / other people he has supervised in the past to be a fantastic leader and manager and intends to remain in the position for several years; I personally know that his former manager (from whom he learned “how to boss”) has a company-wide and industry-wide reputation for both technical and soft skills (I have worked with him previously on cross-department projects and know him to be an amazing mentor). New boss B and C (yes, also matrix-managed) are unknown to me. I have heard good reports from other people who have worked with them, but I don’t know anyone they’ve previously supervised.
    In both positions, promotion potential and current salary/benefits are exactly the same. I will be looking to move on from either one in 18-24 months at the most, into a first-line supervisory position in a new department (new boss knew this before making the offer, and of course current boss knows). Mentoring / management style / leadership will be perfectly suited to me in either position. I’ve probably got 30 years of career ahead of me, and I’d love for 15-20 of them to be with this company.
    So… Teapots in milk, dark, white, mint-swirl, and with strawberry fondue?
    Or tea services and coffeepots?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Wow. First of all, great use of the chocolate teapot metaphor here.

      Second, it sounds like you have two really great choices here. I’m not sure you can make a wrong choice, which is awesome. I think I might personally choose the new job, because you’ve been where you are for so long and because there’s a chance that it will look a lot different after the transition/reorg. Who knows if your awesome bosses will still be your bosses right? But you obviously have a better handle on how overwhelming the learning might be in Job B, which could tip the balance. If that’s something you can handle, I would go for it.

      Seriously, though no matter what you pick it sounds like you’ll excel. Good luck!

    3. orchidsandtea*

      That sounds incredible. Since both are interesting work with increasing new challenges, and both involve fantastic managers, I’d start looking at how they relate to your long-term goals. Which would help you more with the first-line supervisory position you want? Which would look better on a resume as the years go by?

      When the org chart shifts, if you stayed in your current job, is there any risk you’d end up with a lower title or some such thing that might be unpleasant for the next step in your future advancement?

    4. vpc*

      After some heavy reflection and speaking with several mentors, I went with Job B, for the reason orchidsandtea pulls out: which one will be better for the job I want ten years from now? eight years in my current position, or six years in my current position plus two years in the new position?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Two in two weeks, when it had never happened before in nine years. I don’t want to look a (revenue) gift horse in the mouth, but it turns out that’s exhausting. I will not mind when things settle back down.

      2. CMT*

        Hearing about all the comment moderating you had to do (which sounds not fun at all) made me wonder if you ever truly get to take a vacation? Do you ever hire out the comment moderating so you can take a few days off?

    3. Mander*

      The graduation one actually got posted on a page I follow on Facebook today (nobody I know IRL reads this blog). It was interesting how the story changed slightly and the comments were almost entirely about how it had to be fake.

  51. Forrest*

    I have an interview with a women’s health org which is important to me on many levels. I suffer from PCOS, which this org works towards and I was wondering if I could bring that up in the interview?

    1. Anna*

      I think you can if it’s appropriate. Like if they ask why you’re interested in working for them, etc. I don’t think you can mention it otherwise.

      1. JaneB*

        Especially if you can broaden it out/ link it to the role – “…therefore I’ll be able to empathise with my clients/be a role model/already understand the range of treatment options and found your website the most fair and balanced when researching by, which encouraged me to apply to you/ struggled when first diagnosed and would have benefritter from your new outreach programme, so want to help others avoid the same problems etc

        So it’s about you – but also very clearly about what you can do for them, why it makes you better suited to the role

    2. Women's Health Org Worker*

      As my name suggests I work for a women’s health org and think this is such a good questions. Depending on the work they do it would come off as a little too personal. I would find it a little too personal but I imagine there are others who would disagree. If they only deal with PCOS then it might not come off that way. It might also differ depending on what type of position you’re applying for. I work in development so when I hire it’s different than when the programs department is hiring.

      I think when it comes to nonprofits, there are personal experiences that are more shareable than others when it comes to why you support the mission. I might go the route of saying why you support their mission as a whole vs. bring up your own personal situation.

    3. Audiophile*

      I interviewed with a nonprofit org last year, that serves students with disabilities. I mentioned in my interview that I had been in special education classes for certain subjects. It came up as a natural part of the conversation and it seemed to win over my interviewer. Although I didn’t get the job, they remembered me when they were looking to fill the position again and I happened to apply on my own.

      Long story short: I don’t think it will hurt you to mention it. Just don’t let it overwhelm the conversation. Mention and keep the conversation moving forward.

  52. KS*

    I currently work in a permanent full-time job with the government (Canada). I’ve been offered a temporary full-time position with an organization that I would love to work at. However, the position they’ve offered me is a one year contract with the possibility of extending for about six more months, and then an additional possibility of it becoming permanent in the future. The overall compensation package of the contract job is a few thousand dollars less than my current compensation (salary, benefits, pension, vacation time, etc.), but has the potential to get much better if I switch over from contract to permanent.

    My current position is fine – not great, and not terrible. I’ve had my eye on other positions for quite some time now. I’ve been in the position for almost exactly two years.

    The thing is, I just bought my first home and my partner works as a researcher where his job is dependent on grant funding and while it is fairly secure in the short term (1-2 years), there is no certainty about the long-term future of his position.

    Given that, would I be crazy to give up my permanent, full-time job for something uncertain?

    1. ASJ*

      Given that I was unemployed for 8 months and only just found a job within the last year, I would not take the risk – but then I’m not much of a risk-taker, and a stable job is extremely important to me. I think you should sit down and realistically calculate what the odds are that you’ll be left surviving on only one salary. What if your partner’s job ends? Can you survive on your new, lower salary? What if your (new) job doesn’t get extended, can you survive on your partner’s salary? Do you have enough money set aside for the (admittedly slim, but you never know) possibility that you both ended up without jobs?

    2. AF*

      I was actually thinking that you should go for it! Dazzle them with your amazingness, and then hopefully it leads to even bigger things. I get the desire for security, but I think you might regret it if you don’t at least try to apply. Good luck with whichever path you choose!

    3. Sandy*

      If you are full-time with the Feds, you may not have to decide!

      Talk to your department’s HR folks, and inquire about the possibility of an “interchange agreement”. If the type of work is remotely similar and the organization agrees, your HR department can put together an interchange agreement. Interchange agreements are like secondments but for NGOs, the province, NATO, a university, etc.

      Basically it means that your federal department loans you out to that organization for at least year, normally up to three years (renewable every year). Your position with the Feds is held until you come back. If you choose not to come back, then it is released, and the organization can choose to keep you.

    4. Cookie*

      Sounds pretty risky to me, especially since your partner’s work is grant-dependent and may dry up in the same time that your temp job ends (and you just bought a home!). Also, job searching in general is exhausting and stressful and I’d avoid it to whatever extent possible. That’s not to say that you should stay in a job that’s just “fine,” but maybe you could search for another permanent full-time job.

  53. Dynamic Beige*

    Based on all the buzz about the Intern’s Post, and my own non-intern experience, I was wondering if there was a manual for getting the most out of your internship? Maybe all that would be needed is people to post what they wish they had done here, or what they did do that turned out to be great?

    Whether it was about solely for the Intern or the People Who Would Have To Put Up With Them, a roundup of tips might not be a bad idea?

    1. alice*

      I think the schools are not preparing them well. When I did internships, I got no guidance whatsoever from my professors or career center. That said, there is such an abundance of info on the internet that I do have a hard time sympathizing with the interns who “just don’t know any better.”

      2. EddieSherbert*

        I think this can depend on the school. My college did a wonderful job in this area – one of the few areas I think they excelled at actually! My advisors and professors worked with students to find internship opportunities that fit their interests/needs, career center helped with resumes (which were okay – Alison’s are better!), and set it up so you received a lot of feedback during your internship.

        I actually had three professional internships during college, because after the first one I realized I didn’t want to do what I thought wanted to do (it took two more to figure that out, haha).

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          Yeah, the university I attended did a really good job at prepping us for co-ops. They made us take a 10 week co-op readiness course where we did mock interviews, drafted resumes and cover letters, discussed dress codes, etc. By the time we were done, we had a pretty good idea about professional norms in white collar workplaces.

      3. Sophia in the DMV*

        But I’m not sure how professors can prepare them – isn’t the point of an internship to learn in a business setting? The viral post was an extreme case, and most likely not the norm. Professors are not the experts at preparing interns for non academic professional norms

    3. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Biggest advice is that interns need to understand that they are going to learn more about business/industry norms, practices, and culture. If there is ever a time to not rock the boat it is during an internship.

  54. Persephone Mulberry*

    Strategies for quitting smoking at work?

    My husband works in retail, in mall, and there are a few other smokers on staff, so there’s a pretty established “smoke break” culture in his store. Going outside with them but not smoking seems like an exercise in futility (my sister who successfully quit confirmed this), so he really needs something to take the place of the smoke break. Any ideas?

    1. KR*

      Could he take a walk around the parking lot? Also, could he try non-tobacco vapes? My boyfriend is in the military and there is a strong smoking culture there. He’s successfully quit by vaping – he can still hang out with his friends in the smoke pit and take breaks with them but skips the cigarettes.

      1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

        I was going to suggest vaping too, apparently it’s helping loads of people quit without actually intending to. Which is weird.

    2. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

      A friend of mine cut a straw into a piece the size of a cigarette and would blow throw it when she felt the urge. She had to have something in her hand and it helped having the tactile straw.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Is there a destination within the mall he could walk to in lieu of a smoke break? Coffee or a smoothie? A fountain where he can throw in a coin and wish for the cigarette craving to disappear? Anything that would be a new routine might help. Best of luck to him – this is a brutal habit to break. I see teachers struggle with this all the time and most of them go to the vending machine instead (they have to leave school property to smoke and it’s virtually impossible to do during the day.)

    4. matcha123*

      I knew a women who quit smoking by using a plastic cigarette. She said that the act of bringing it to her lips and “puffing” gave her a lot of comfort. She’d walk around with the “cigarette”, too.

    5. Emilia Bedelia*

      Can he enlist fellow non smokers to take a walk, get a drink, whatever with him? That way it’s still a social time, with the added bonus of having accountability from others to not smoke.

  55. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

    So I have a person from another department, mainly teapot quality audits who has this reputation of throwing things on other departments at the last minute that she has advance warning about, sometimes of up to a month. Whats the best way to communicate to her that this is kind of rude and stressful on the receiver, not to mention she’s not getting the best we can give her if we get warning about it in advance.

    1. AF*

      Is it possible to push back, and tell her as soon as she gives you something last minute, that you can’t guarantee you can get it to her by her deadline? I don’t know how that impacts your overall work, but telling her that if she gets things to you earlier, the quality of the product you create will be better. And then explaining the repercussions (lower quality work) if she doesn’t tell you about it sooner. But this is totally aggravating. Good luck!

      1. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

        She always quotes things at me like ‘ But the city dept of teapot quality needs this today!’ with the implication that i will be blamed for not meeting her deadline. What i want to do is communicate to her that we need to know as soon as she knows that the teapot quality trending data needs compiling by X, and the data will be likely available by X-1, so i can reserve the time and not be blindsided by these demanding last minute requests. Last one took 6 hours of my day! Not sure if the best approach is ‘can we talk about your workflow when you get teapot quality trending requests?’ or simply ask to be included in the workflow as soon as she gets wind of it.

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          My BF had this issue with some of his leadership for a while, but luckily they have a weekly feedback tool, as well as opportunities to review management. So he tactfully said something on both those mediums and it stopped. If you don’t have anytbing like hat I’d 1. Look at her dead on and do that blinking thing next time and ask whe she knew about this (politely) and 2. Try and enlist your own manager to say something.

          1. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

            I thought about bringing it up with my manager, but I don’t want to sound like i’m whining about her. I really don’t mind doing the work she needs, i just want some warning its coming.

            1. TootsNYC*

              That’s not whining. That’s feedback. That’s asking your boss to suggest how to approach this problem.

        2. non-profit manager*

          Sometimes you have to let people suffer the consequences before they learn. Everyone keeps accommodating her, so she no incentive to change. Next time she does this and throws out, “so and so needs it …”, you can respond something along the lines of, “well, you should have gotten this to us earlier.” Let HER take the blame. Just make sure you really are loaded with work before you try this.

    2. AF*

      So not telling her it’s rude, but that this is the consequence of her actions. And possibly explaining your own workload, and that you have other priorities besides her work.

      1. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

        She’s basically clueless that other’s workloads and workflows exist, from what I’ve seen. At least one other department has noticed this behavior from her, so mine is not the only one she picks on.

  56. Anonymous for thissss*

    I have a question for all the hiring managers/people who hire.
    I was arrested 4 years ago when I was 18 for possession of a controlled substance (marijuana). I was fortunate enough to just have to take a diversion class (a month long class with a police officer and other people my age about avoiding substance abuse) and have good behavior for 6 months. My state has medicinal marijuana and is slowly moving towards decriminalization, so this kind of thing is common for first time offenders. I don’t have a criminal record (I pulled it about a year ago to make sure I would pass a check for housing) but the police log from when I was arrested shows up on the first page when you google my name (along with my age at the time and where I lived then). Would this deter any of you from hiring me? It doesn’t mention the outcome of the arrest, only that it happened.

    1. Elle*

      It would not deter me, especially if you have shown a good work history in the meantime, and got great references. I strongly believe in second chances. Plus, if your record is clear, and the only thing I found was Google reference to an arrest, it would matter even less. I can only speak for myself though, I’ll be interested to read some of the other responses.

    2. Leatherwings*

      An arrest for marijuana wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me, particularly in a more liberal state where it’s legal in certain circumstances.

      That being said, there are things you can do to make that disappear into the second or third page of google searches by heightening your online presence and having other, newer things show up on the first page. I would look into these things, since this is something you have a teensy bit of control over. Good luck!

    3. Graciosa*

      Well, I have two answers for you.

      First, it would not deter my company from hiring you. We do run formal background checks, but Google is not part of that. Honestly, we have a standard process and it looks like it wouldn’t trigger anything for you. I wouldn’t worry about it.

      The caveat is that we are federal contractors and do drug test. So it will look like you have a clean record and can get hired, but if your marijuana use shows up in a drug test (either at hiring or later) you would lose the job. As long as you don’t plan to continue using in the future, you should be fine.

      The second answer is that if you asked me about it as myself (and not my company, which has policies) whether I hired you or not would depend very much on how you presented the information. If the gist is early mistake – experimenting – foolish youth but grew up – benefited from diversion – never, ever again – then I don’t care. People do stupid stuff and it shouldn’t be held against them forever.

      If the gist of your answer is a rant about how it ought to be legal and it’s not a big deal and you can’t wait for it to be legalized so you can use regularly / openly, then I’m not going to hire you. I realize other people have different views about marijuana use, but I don’t want anyone working under the influence and marijuana stays in your system longer than many people realize.

      If other people are fine hiring users, that’s up to them and I’m not trying to stop them, but this is the choice I would make for my business if I was the sole decision maker.

      I’m trying to answer the question without starting a war about marijuana, so maybe it would be best to consider it a cultural issue for hiring purposes.

      1. Anon with a Google result*

        So you would ask about it if you happened to google my name before interviewing me? That’s useful. I don’t plan on applying somewhere that does drug test because I think it’s an invasion of privacy and I currently use mainly for anxiety (which isn’t covered under my state’s medicinal program) but it’s helpful to know your angle from the perspective of someone who is Not Okay with marijuana usage.

        1. Graciosa*

          Absolutely I would ask you – otherwise, I would be making decisions based on assumptions without ever mentioning it to you, the most obvious source in addition to being most affected.

          As a manager, I really try to be very straightforward and direct – much easier on everyone in the long run. ;-)

    4. CR*

      You should look into the possibility of sealing your arrest record. Generally you are able to seal your criminal record for crimes like this.

      From personal experience, I was arrested 6 years ago for selling a harder drug. Received a deferred judgment depending on completion of probation. After I completed probation, I was able to seal the case and arrest record so that nothing shows up on a standard employment background check.

      I’m not sure what the laws in your state are but there are definitely options out there to help people who made mistakes when they are younger.

      1. Anonymous for thissss*

        Thanks! I’ll look into this. I can pay a $100 fee and they’ll take the arrest off my record, but since the police logs were posted through a newspaper, I’m not sure if they will remove it from their website.

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      This would probably prevent you from being hired as a teacher if we knew about it. I can’t imagine it would be a big deal in other fields. Good luck!

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      To be honest, I’d think being arrested for having marijuana at 18 would not even surprise me much, let alone be a deterrent. I’d just be like “Yeah, you and half the country.”

      1. Anonymous for thissss*

        Half my friends have arrest records for weed – maybe that speaks to who my friends are but more so I think it speaks to the current policies for nonviolent drug offenses both in my state and in the US. Thanks – your input is really helpful.

    7. CAA*

      My employees need to be able to get U.S. government security clearances, and all our offer letters state that clearly. I wouldn’t hire you if I thought there was too high a risk that your clearance wouldn’t go through; and you wouldn’t want that anyway because we’d have to fire you if you started work and then couldn’t get a clearance.

      1. zora.dee*

        But would an arrest with no conviction prevent a security clearance? I don’t officially know the answer, but that doesn’t sound right to me. From what I understand, it shouldn’t. Maybe super high level top secret, but not a standard clearance.

        1. Marillenbaum*

          It depends on a few factors: how long ago was it before you applied for the clearance? Typically, in a case like this you would want at least two years between the charge and your application. Secondly, did you mention it in every section of the application where it was relevant? In most cases like this where someone is denied a clearance, it’s less about what you did and more that the person lied about it. Dishonesty gets you in trouble every single time. Plus, most agencies that require background checks/clearances have a line where you can ask anonymously about your circumstances.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      I completely support legalization, but you would not be hireable for my workplace (a state university). It’s awful, but that’s how things go.

      1. Anonymous for thissss*

        I was considering applying for an admin job at a local private school, so I was afraid of this. I’ll apply anyway in case it’s not a significant barrier at this school. It’s a reach position so I wasn’t too attached to it anyway. Thanks!

    9. Cube Farmer*

      Because arrests can be biased due to race, religion, and many other factors, I would never look at an arrest as an indication of someone’s guilt. Add to that your age at the time and the 4 years since, and I wouldn’t even give it a passing glance.

      1. Anonymous for thissss*

        This is really helpful. Thank you! I’m considering job searching soon so I’m trying to gauge the reaction of hiring managers.

    10. MsMaryMary*

      I personally would have no issue hiring you, but other people at my organization would. We’re a pretty conservative company in a conservative industry. I’ve also posted here before about our C suite’s hiring preferences that I do not agree with, such as requiring a college degree for positions where it is not really needed, or not hiring the college intern who was not familiar with Excel, so keep that in mind.

    11. I'm Not Phyllis*

      No it wouldn’t deter me. If it was a simple possession charge from when you were 18? There might be employers out there who do care though – I wonder if there’s a way to get rid of it, at least from the first page of Google?

      1. Anon for thissssss*

        Good to know it wouldn’t deter you – I hope other people are as understanding as you.

    12. ginger ale for all*

      I had heard that you can bury google results with other news about yourself. You can get some articles on how to do that by googling ‘bury google results reputation’.

      1. ginger ale for all*

        I need to add that I had heard that most people don’t look past the first page of results so just get it moved to the second page.

        1. Anon for thissssss*

          That’s helpful to know. I’ll work on burying the arrest. I wonder if I get my record wiped if I can get the newspaper to take my name off the arrest report.

    13. Anon for my employee...*

      My experience: I recently hired someone who has a possession arrest record show up in their google results from when they were 18.

      They subsequently graduated with honors, have two years experience with excellent references and took the initiative to get an industry certification not required in their previous position. My dream candidate. All I thought when I saw the arrest record was, man, that must have been a terrifying experience.

      I did bring it up a few weeks after they started so that they could work on their online presence (they largely avoid social media and had never searched their own name so had no idea it was out there. They were mortified, but it ended up a really great bonding conversation.

      (Shout out to Alison for this blog that helped me navigate that conversation!)

      1. Anon for thissssss*

        Thank you, I’ll have to work on burying it. I’ve been recently working on taking down all mentions of my name online and it’s interesting because when you search my name, the arrest shows up near the top but the newspaper article from my school when college graduation happens, the article from me getting on the deans list, and the high school honor roll articles show up on the second page. What a shame.

        1. Anon for my employee...*

          Yup. My employee was on honor roll and deans list frequently as well – that’s 90% of the links on the first two pages. A couple links that are clearly a different person, and then there’s the newspaper arrest record with address so it is clearly them. I figure they set up a linked in profile and maybe a professional Twitter or something and it’ll get pushed far enough down in the results.

  57. KatieKate*

    MBA folks! A question:
    -was it worth it? Both time and money investment. I’m reading a lot on how it’s actually not worth it for a lot of people because they stay on the same career track, and it’s not really required for a lot of careers. Has anyone found that to be the case? Thanks!

    1. Anomanom*

      I did a weekend executive program, finished a year ago. My career has leaped in the time since I started the program, but I think that is mostly due to increased confidence in my abilities and willingness to try things I may have talked myself out of before. I paid about $40,000 for the program, with the GI Bill covering the remaining $20,000. I wouldn’t have paid more than that, but I’m very happy I did it. I had a non traditional undergrad, and went to a BG10 school for my MBA though, and that impacts my feelings on it.

    2. WT*

      I finished my program up last summer and having done so I would say unless your job goals require it only pursue it for yourself not some imagine career goal. I enjoyed my time and did learn a good deal, but in the end the benefit was for myself more than anything else.

    3. Jklmnop*

      I did it. Wanted to switch out of engineering where I’d been for 6 years Nd was currently making 75-85k depending on OT. Applied and was accepted to several schools both full and part time. Got a 50% tuition grant to a top school in the city I was already living in with my spouse. Did contract/part time work at my engineering firm for the first 2 semesters (made about $35k), then fully quit. Earned 30k at my summer internship. Graduated with $40k in debt.

      First year out was tricky and I was in/underemployed/at a startup that failed. But after one year out, i found a job at a solid company in the type of role I wanted (operations), albeit a totally different industry than I thought I’d be in (insurance) making $120k. Have since been promoted twice and am now making 190k with a 35k bonus, at 33.

      Making a move from electrical engineering to insurance operation would not have been possible without my MBA program and internship.

  58. Ghosted*

    It seems this week I’ve been ghosted yet again by a potential employer. I applied for a job at an organization that I really want to work for. The job would be doing exactly the type of work that I’ve spent my free time getting a certificate from a university and taking all the training and development classes I can, so I can be a great candidate for a job just like this. I went through two rounds of interviews with multiple staff people, completed a mock assignment, etc. That was late May and early June. Everything seemed to be going well in the beginning. I followed up on the agreed upon schedule, and they let me know they hadn’t yet made a decision. They said they’d reach out by a certain date. That date came and went. I waited more than a week after that and followed up. No reply whatsoever. It’s been more than a month since the last interview and nearly three weeks since last contact from them.

    This is the second time in just a few months that the exact same thing has happened (ghosted after two rounds of interviews) with nearly identical details (but at different organizations). I know this is getting more common and isn’t unusual, but I wish employers would be a little more straightforward and responsive when candidates have spent hours of time to prep, arrange to to participate in lengthy interviews, etc. Just a one line email that they’ve made a different decision, cancelled the position, etc. I’m trying to make a bit of career change, and these two recent experiences are definitely deflating. Oh well, thanks for letting me vent. Onward and upward now!

    1. fposte*

      I’m on the hiring side, and I find that kind of lack of notification unacceptable. I get that it’s nobody’s favorite thing to do, but it really matters to recipients.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Amen to this. It’s one thing not to respond to applications, especially if you get 100s of them but you should absolutely let interviewees know one way or the other.

  59. Pix*

    How do I handle this?

    I am a professional teapot historian, but I do teapot classes for teens. Another teapot historian who has a focus not on teens interrupted one of my classes to ask a) when was I going to leave the room I was in, and b) was I going to clean up after myself. They went on to push me out of the room ten minutes early and then complained that it wasn’t clean enough! They’re talking about going to the director of teapot historians for our area, which is like trying to kill a squirrel with buckshot.

    I was very upset when it happened (I’m upset again thinking about it now). But how do I handle this? I’m a pretty junior teapot historian, and I’ve been at my place for about a year and two months at this point, full time for five months.

    1. alice*

      Where are you doing these classes? I’d suggest going to the manager of the place and making it very clear that this other historian was completely out of line. I wonder if there was a double booking or something like that.

    2. LQ*

      Start with always schedule extra time on the rooms if at all possible. Especially if people are pushy.

      “I have the room for this class until X. It will be clean and ready for the next meeting at X. Please don’t interrupt my class. Thank you.”

      Or just “I’m in the middle of class, if you have questions about the schedule, I’m sure the calendar is up to date.”

      Would it help you to not think of this as standing up for yourself but for your students? Someone is trying to short them on the time they need. Your job is to help protect that time.

  60. Raises*

    Is it crazy to ask for a 25% raise with promotion? I am asking to move from the bottom of my current salary band to the middle of my new range (and with a target of 18% after negotiating, below middle of range).

    I’ve increased revenue by 60% and my new role is high profile, but I feel nervous.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      That sounds like a lot to me. What is your case for landing in the middle of the higher band, when you’ve previously been at the low end of the lower band?

      Generally, I’d anticipate being at the low end of the higher band whenever you have an internal promotion (by definition, you’ll be at the low end of experience for that role).

      1. raises*

        I was at the lower end because I came in undervalued and we didn’t have any raises for the first 2 years I’ve been here. I am aiming for being at the 25% point within the range, but I think I need to ask for more so there’s room to negotiate. I just don’t want to be at the very bottom, because I have a great track record of accomplishments far beyond my previous role, and it’s a very high profile new role.

        Still, I realize 25% is a lot, so I appreciate the gut check.

        1. raises*

          Whoops, I forgot to add – I think I have a good case for being above the bottom of the band. I increased revenue by 60% and still increasing; I took on a several major projects we’d otherwise have to outsource, saving significant costs (like, much more than my salary). And my new role is a integral to the organization’s sustainability; and I’ll be doing it with very little support and be the only expert on it in-house.

    2. Leatherwings*

      25% seems like a lot to me too. The work you did sounds like it definitely merits a raise, so don’t be nervous or afraid to ask for one. But make sure what you’re asking for is reasonable for the company. I haven’t heard of someone getting a raise as large at 18% without moving jobs or getting a huge promotion (like from a department director to VP level promotion).

    3. BRR*

      Some factors are what you’re making, what people in your new role typically make, how your company typically pays people within a salary band, and if your employer is stingy with raises for internal promotions.

    4. MsMaryMary*

      25% sounds like a lot at first, but I don’t think it’s crazy to go from, say, $40,000 to $50,000. Maybe stick to dollar amounts and where you want to be in the pay band, and de-emphasize the percentage.

    5. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Okay this:

      I’ve increased revenue by 60%

      I don’t know what your industry is. I don’t know how personally you were responsible for this increase. I don’t know over what timespan. I don’t know how much $$$ 60% is because I don’t know where you started. But I’ll tell you this, people who drive revenue get to ask for cash.

      If you really took, say 1 million in revenue, and were hands on responsible for it going to 1.6 million in 12 months, yell YEAH, you ask for money. Salary bands and “what’s okay to ask for” do not apply to people who drive revenue in that fashion because those people are rare.

      1. Raises*

        Thanks! This is how I feel too, but I feel a little arrogant being like, hey I know exactly how much net I’ve brought in so gimme my cut – on the other hand, I do know my value and I want to be recognized.

        My program is smaller than 1 million, but I’ve maintained growth and still beat this FY target by 20% even after my target was significantly raised (this is my second year, no raise given 1st year because of major other transitions in org). I know I’m blowing it out of the water, but I also know I’m really ambitious and I don’t want to fool myself about my short-term prospects.

        1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd*

          Bonus systems are common for revenue generators – percent of overall, percent of growth, percent of beating target, etc. There’s a few angles for you to negotiate from.

        2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

          Oh and P.S.

          “really ambitious” and “revenue generators” go together. You can’t have a revenue generator who isn’t really ambitious. That’s your super power. Never doubt it.

  61. Benefits Package*

    I have a phone screening next week and HR sent me their benefits package to review. This is the first time I have encountered this and to be honest the first time I ever reviewed benefits. So far, I worked customer service positions without benefits, so I am a little lost and have no one to ask as I am the first person in my family to graduate college. So what makes a good benefits package? How do I access a benefits package in the first place on whether it is a good or OK package? I know I will be asked for salary requirements, but my go-to has been “I am seeking a salary range from $x-$x, but it is flexible depending on the overall benefits/compensation package”. So what how do I frame my salary requirements if I was sent an overview of the benefits package?

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      I’d ask around, friends and family, how much comes out of their paycheck, how much their copays are, etc. If you’re in the US, a good company pays 80-100% of the employee’s premium for an HMO, and then you pay extra if you want to add a spouse or dependent, and even more if you prefer a PPO.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I should say a generous company offers that. They could still be a great company in other ways just not super generous on the benefits. For example, my company pays 100% of the employee premium, but we have no 401k matching, so that’s a trade off.

    2. BRR*

      The following benefits are what I look at:
      -How much PTO you get.
      -How much your health insurance costs and if vision and/or dental is extra.
      -What the insurance covers including costs of services and who the insurance covers (my current dental insurance barely covers anyone and the ones it does cover have terrible reputations).
      -Is there company retirement match and how long does it take you to vest? My first job matched 2% and it took five years to vest. That’s pretty bad.
      -Any other possible benefits. I know a private school near me offers a gym membership and free lunch.

      1. zora.dee*

        I would add, the reason you want to know these things is that some of these might be open to negotiation, even if salary isn’t, or in addition.

        Especially PTO, google around for average numbers of PTO days, but if it’s less than 15 days total (sick and Vacation), I would ask for more, to get you up to 15. This is a good one to have in your back pocket if they say they can’t negotiate on salary at all, “I understand. Would it be possible to get 3 more PTO days in my benefits package instead, then?”

        Or if there is a Health Savings Account, you might be able to ask for a slight increase to their contribution. Professional Development or commuter benefits. Or even how they do comp time or flex time, depending on how that is written out in the paperwork you might be able to make some changes.

        I’ll add a couple of links below to articles about what is negotiable other than pay. Congrats and good luck!!

        2. BRR*

          Oh shoot, you reminded me about working from home if that’s important for you. I take public transit to work so my two wfh days a week saves me some money.

    3. TootsNYC*

      Focus on how much they take out of your check for premiums.
      Focus on what the coverage is–is it an HMO thing, or can you pick your doctor?

      And remember that a not-so-great insurance package for someone else might be good for you.

      I would vote for getting ahold of some sensible person with more work experience than you to sit down and look at it.

  62. SJPufendork*

    Minor vent: yesterday was a brutally bad day. A counterpart in another department got under my skin in a rather contentious conference call and I showed my frustration. Nothing unprofessional, but I definitely had a tone in my voice that clearly indicated my irritation.

    Basically, my staff and I are the experts in a process, and control the release schedule of new client work. A lead in the other department (who interfaces directly with our client) rightfully had some question about his proposed timeline for a new teapot and my indication that the timeline needed to be 2x slower than he wanted. I reiterated the timeline and the reasons for it. However, he went to his own boss (someone one step about me, so to speak) who came onto the con call to berate us about our lack of understanding on the process in a fairly condescending way. He was leaving out two steps in his thinking and I had to point it out, which I did. And it was sharp, as I mentioned above.

    The guy in in questions emailed my own boss to complain about my tone. And to suggest that perhaps he should replace me and my direct report (both women) with another direct report of mine (male) since “women aren’t as good with teapots and they emotionally don’t understand what we need”. Boss shut it down and escalated it internally. So it’s all turned into a thing, and it’s good my boss has backed us (and has the rest of leadership, now that they are aware). But I’m kicking myself for forgetting the whole “women in teapots” stereotype as well as the “women are emotional” trope. Argh.

    2. Anna*

      I am She-Hulking out.

      You reacted as a normal person might in such a situation. This guy is an asshole and holy crap I have so little patience for this BS this week.

    3. Jaguar*

      If it helps, there’s humour in the situation. Someone is complaining about tone, which is an emotional complaint. It ain’t a woman.

      1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

        BOOM. This. I’m sorry, OP. I had a “tone” complaint from a previous male boss about how I handled a situation with a male vendor. It was bullcrap, and the vendor actually fell over backwards to make things right for my team since it was their error, and we all had a great working relationship for years after that.

        But apparently something in how I worded the initial email gave a tone. Silly sensitive man boss. :)

    4. CMT*

      He actually put that in an email?!?! Holy shit. You did nothing wrong! You did nothing wrong, you did nothing wrong! Nobody, man or woman, can be perfect 100% of the time, and this response was way out of proportion.

    5. Karo*

      My jaw literally dropped at the “women aren’t as good with teapots” line. Holy Hanukkah Balls. Good for your boss for shutting it down and escalating it!

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, if he’d stopped at “SJPufendork’s tone was unnecessary” it would have still been petty but at least stuck to the facts of the situation. But given the sexist comment I suspect he would have complained no matter how “nice” your tone was as long as you weren’t giving him the answer he wanted.

        1. Jennifer*

          Your problem with “tone” was that you didn’t shut up, agree with him, and give him what he wanted.

    6. Observer*

      The guy actually specified that he needs a male on the process, because “women” aren’t good enough? In EMAIL?!

      HR must be having palpitations and nightmares right now. I mean, a huge part of their job is too keep the company out of court and out of the attentions of government agencies like the EEOC. An email like that it a live grenade waiting to explode, in that context.

    7. catsAreCool*

      Wow. The guy actually said in an e-mail “women aren’t as good with teapots and they emotionally don’t understand what we need”. This guy isn’t just a jerk, he’s also being really stupid, for a couple of reasons. For one thing, I’m sure women are as good with teapots, so he’s seriously limiting himself by thinking this. For another thing, he actually admitted it in writing. Isn’t it a good thing when jerks are stupid though? In the long run.

  63. Berry*

    I graduated from college last year and have been job hunting nonstop since graduation, but not getting any bites. I’ve sent out nearly 100 resumes and gotten no more than 10 interviews? And barely any responses overall. I have been working since September, but it’s not in my field and ridiculously stressful (I received no training on how to do this job so I’ve essentially been teaching myself, plus lots of angry customers to deal with on the phone about things I don’t always know) and my manager was let go back in March and I was given a lot of his responsibilities and am now the only one doing this type of work in the office. I’ve revamped my resume and my cover letter writing style a couple of months ago but I’m just still getting more and more discouraged. Plus it doesn’t help that I live at home and my parents are constantly telling me that I need to switch fields or go to grad school since clearly my job search efforts aren’t working. They also keep telling me that clearly I’m interviewing wrong, which I don’t think I am but of course after a handful of never hearing back after the interview I’m not so sure.
    Sorry, needed to vent about my job search frustrations. (I made it to the second round interview for a position a few weeks back but just found out that they offered it to someone else.) I send out several job applications a week, hoping that something works out soon.
    A question, I guess: are paid services (looking over my resume/cover letter/interview practice) worth it? ( I read a lot of online stuff and practice with friends.) Or is it worth it to try to find a recruiter to work with? Thanks.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Hey Berry! I’m so sorry you’re frustrated; job hunting is so stressful. I know you can email your resume to Alison (Ask a Manager) and she will look it over for you – she’s really awesome about it and won’t charge you for it.

      Otherwise, there are so many free resources out there – and even tips on this website, I don’t think you should need to pay for that service.

      I would also suggest looking into volunteer or internship opportunities in your field – showing that you are in the field even though your current job isn’t in that area is really helpful. You can use and expand your degree-specific skills, and (depending on the field) building a portfolio can be hugely helpful. And the volunteer stuff can be a great “hobbies/free time/interests” answer in an interview if it doesn’t make it onto your portfolio or resume.

      (I don’t know much about recruiters, unfortunately.)

      Good luck!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Well, not exactly. I occasionally offer resume reviews, usually about once a year, but I do charge for them.

        A 10% response rate isn’t terrible. I’d recommend reading everything here:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2012/12/if-youre-not-getting-interviews-read-this.html

        I will tell you that I hear from a LOT of people who say “I’m already doing everything you recommend” and then I look at their resume and cover letters and they’re not doing half of it. So it’s worth reading with fresh eyes.

    2. Audiophile*

      Berry,

      I’ve been there. I was really struggling for a few years with my job search. I was mainly applying to administrative support positions but I didn’t have half the experience that other applicants had. So while I got interviews, mostly first rounds and a few times second rounds, I never got offers. I was employed, thankfully, but not happy. Then to compound things, I had someone I grew up with pass away pretty suddenly. which I can now admit made me obsessively apply to jobs in my field. I will say, I did purchase one of Alison’s reviews and found it really helpful. I also utilized a fair amount of her suggestions.

      I definitely recommend reading through her archives, but also ask friends to take a look. I had a period of time where I edited friend’s resumes and they got interviews and job offers.

  64. orchidsandtea*

    A couple of weeks ago I asked for advice on giving my boss an early heads up that I plan to job-hunt. It went well. He agreed to be a reference (He said, “And to be clear, it will be a very good one”) and to let me be flexible for scheduling job interviews. The things I want are things that aren’t available at our company, so there’s no hard feelings, and we’re brainstorming the things that make me successful in my role to help create a training manual for the next person. There may be opportunities for me to do contract work with him in the future, which I would enjoy.

    1. vpc*

      Yay!

      This is similar to my situation with Job A and Job B that you commented on above :) Good luck!

  65. website anon*

    Anon because I don’t want to out myself but could use some advice.

    I’m feeling a little demotivated. Basically, 2 coworkers and I were pulled into a project starting in December. Without going into too much detail, we were asked to revamp our website (basically, to confer with other departments, move all the old content to the new program, freshen said content, and design the general look of the new pages). Due to the way my company built the website in the first place, my portion is housed on a different server that is not being refreshed for another 2-3 years. My manager decided that we would push to have my portion moved to the other server to be with the other two portions (because my department as a whole wants a consistent look to ‘their’ portion of the site).

    I specifically asked our liaison from the other department whether this would be possible. In December. And she said she’d start the process with I.T. and to go ahead and proceed. During several meetings, I reminded our liaison this was an issue and she said they were ongoing. I.T. had a meeting about it in May; not too long ago my manager was asked to put together an email with our reasoning.

    Flash forward 6 months to now, two days before launch, when I.T. comes back with an email about how “unprecedented” this is and that they want a meeting with my manager to, basically, argue about it. The meeting is next Wednesday. If I.T. wins, that means all the work I’ve put into transitioning everything (roughly 50 hours of work plus meetings, and yes spread out over 6 months, but it was during our busy time and generally left me quite stressed) is garbage. It also means we’re stuck with a really shitty portion of website, but I’m not as upset about that.

    (That’s leaving out the fact that our liaison has been pretty difficult during this time, so my frustrating with the other department is adding to the whole mess).

    I’m having a hard time letting this go and could use some advice. It’s stressing me out and I have the feeling that I.T. isn’t going to budge. Am I taking this too personally?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Sounds like where I work. Corp. IT never wanted to do anything.
      Our solution: go outside and host off the corporate servers. We were able to make the kind of site we wanted without IT interference.

    3. Rubyrose*

      I work in IT. Sounds to me like your liaison has been less than honest about her dealings with IT and she probably just started the process with them right before your manager was asked to put together the email with the reasoning. Do you have any proof (from a source besides the liaison) that the process was started in December?

      I’ve had this happen all too often. Liaisons put off involving IT where they know they should, until the very last minute, thinking that IT just sits there eating bonbons and surfing the net, waiting for work to appear. Why do they do that? And then they want IT to drop everything to get their work done for a deadline they have known about for months. In a shop that has standard industry practices surrounding requirements gathering, scoping, documentation, and change management, throwing something together in 2 days would be unprecedented. And even with this being sprung on them in May, lead times on server enhancement (maybe that server is not large enough for you stuff? does it need new/different software? who is paying for this?) may not be enough.

      There needs to be a sit-down with your manager, the IT manager, and this liaison. And based on that fact finding, perhaps a different liaison needs to be found. On the other hand, if IT has been sitting on it (yep, that does happen), it is time for your manager to take the issue up the chain. If IT waited on communicating the bad news until two days before launch they need to be called out.

      Sorry for the vent. But to answer your question – yes, you are probably taking it too personally. I fully understand your being angry about the misuse of your time and the stress caused by it. But it could have been worse. I do think it would be appropriate to mention to your manager the additional stress this has caused and is there any way this can be avoided on future projects. Phrase this as it being a waste of company time and resources. I would also somehow let your manager know that you would like to find out what went wrong here. Did you do anything wrong? It does not sound like it, but whatever you can do to let her know that this is something that requires managerial investigation and action is important. Nobody in their right mind wants this to happen again.

      1. Rubyrose*

        Also, just for future reference – were you given any project plan/timing on when that move was to take place? And more importantly, how were you going to test that change before it became live to the world? I would have expected that testing what you are describing should have been taking place about a week before launch. One way to protect yourself in the future is to demand those types of details early. When they cannot be produced in a timely manner that is your red flag that appropriate planning is not being done and that the project is not moving along as needed. You can then start alerting your manager earlier that something is not being attended to.

      2. KR*

        I second this. We get this a lot from other departments- they have projects that they really should involve us on from day one, but instead we hear about it with minimal time to do a lot of work which is especially aggravating when we might have other things we planned on doing, things might crop up that require our full attention, or it’s work that requires ordering parts/heavy downloading or backups/ect.

  66. esra*

    I’ve been “strongly encouraged” to go to our mystery company celebration. Five hours at an undisclosed location. We will be fed, but we don’t know what. We should only bring our bags if we must, and there’s no way to leave once you are there.

    No.

      1. esra*

        That’s my guess. Let me tell you, those of us with dietary issues aren’t crazy about mystery menu, no escape evening.

    5. AF*

      Oh. Hell. No. (I was also totally thinking Booze Cruise). How many people do you work with? Find the other ones who are horrified by this, get together, and push back. And keep us posted!

      1. esra*

        100+. I told the higher up who strongly encouraged me that this kind of scenario just isn’t a possibility for people with dietary or mobility issues. She agreed and said she was going to talk to them about the next one. The CEO really loves surprises and refuses to let anyone give out details, he basically wanted us all to get on a bus with no info. A lot of people pushed back about what we should wear/bring/transportation etc, and we got an email with extremely vague details.

        I don’t think this one is going to be as well attended as the last, where it was guaranteed in-town and you could leave easily at any time.

          1. I'm Not Phyllis*

            I wouldn’t say that. I’m sure it comes from a good place of wanting to do something nice for your staff, but it’s a little … misinformed.

        2. zora.dee*

          WHAT?!?! No, no surprises AT WORK. That is not the place for surprises, when you are at work as part of a business arrangement.

          Save the surprises for your wife, dude! Not for your employees, you don’t know them like that!

      2. Ama*

        Yeah I live near a river that has a lot of party boats at certain times of year, and every time one goes by I think how much I would absolutely hate being on one. Even with people I know and like, sometimes the only way I can get myself to go to social activities is by telling myself I can always leave if I’m not having fun.

        Although when they said no bags, I was thinking possibly one of those mystery room places.

    6. Pearl*

      This is the kind of thing that I would turn down even if a friend was proposing it. And then I would joke whether they were setting me up for something. “Please bring no identifying items with you. Also, no cell phones. Also, don’t tell your friends or family to expect you back. Uh. I mean. For a few…hours.”

    7. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      Oh I hate these nonsense employee events. My current company did the booze cruise a few years ago, and the most recent one was a get-together with lunch provided…but also, athletic games! What kind of athletic games, you ask? Well we had no damn way of knowing because they didn’t want to spoil the surpriiiiiise. Then they were disappointed to know that my chiro and I decided I was going to sit them out, as did a good chunk of other folks.

      The athletic games turned out to be nothing too strenuous and I probably would have been fine doing them. But why in the hell did they think I was going to take a chance on that.

  67. Anon For This*

    This week I’ve realized I am burning out at my job. I’m starting to feel anxious and had to take medication twice this week (a prescription usually lasts me literally a year). I’ve already started a job search, but I am going to have to step it up. Until then I’ll have to do a lot of craft projects to keep the frustration and anxiety at bay.

    1. alice*

      My job is hellish, and I cope by coloring on my breaks. Best of luck with your job search!

      1. Anon For This*

        I have a curse word coloring book in my back along with some colored pencils. It’s amazing how when you’re coloring you can’t really think about anything else. Except maybe that you’re coloring.

  68. Anon for this today*

    Just having a bit of a rant. I have been looking for a job off and on for the past four years. I am currently looking again. I have had a couple of interviews, but I just can’t seem to get through to the next round. I have asked for feedback, and I am not really sure what I am supposed to do with it. One person told me he thought I came across as fake and I was using difficult words to, in his opinion, mask my insecurity (???). Another said they just didn’t feel a “click” or connection and that I looked much more upbeat/perky in the photo on my cv (yes, I know, but where I live, not photo means no invite)… I know you are not supposed to take any of this personal, but it feels very personal, as to me it comes across as saying: we don’t like you as a person. I realize I have problems with social situations and that it doesn’t help that I suffer from depression. However, I have finally made the step to seek help for my depression and have an intake appointment with a psychologist next week. However, I have two more interviews coming up next week, and I just don’t know how to present myself anymore. /end of rant

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      Unless you’re applying to a specific industry where a very specific personality is expected for whatever reason, I think you just happened to run into a couple of jerks. The only thing I can think of for you to do is to somehow get an idea of the company’s culture and what type people excel there next time you interview? Maybe you’re doing that already but you just got blindsided by a couple jerky hiring managers?

    2. TootsNYC*

      You might ask your feedback question in a more tailored way: “Is there something about my experience that put me in the no-hire category?” That sort of thing.

      Or, “Is there some experience I could add?”

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Yes, the experience wording is better because it keeps the conversation focused on things that are quantifiable and objective.

  69. Stranger than fiction*

    I’m so proud of myself! I talked to a coworker about their perfume giving me a headache all by myself! And they were so nice about it and said they’d take it home and not bring it back/wear it again. I was so scared they’d hate me.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      *applause*

      That is so hard to do, and kudos to both of you. She sounds like a lovely, caring person who simply didn’t realize her perfume was strong– and how could she until you brought it up? :)

    2. Cube Farmer*

      Wow! You mean you didn’t complain behind her back to your coworkers, have a meeting with your manager to discuss how the manager should handle this, or go to HR and demand that they have a meeting with her?! You just had an adult conversation with her and treated her with respect and she, in turn, treated you with respect?

      These conversations can be difficult and they don’t always have a great outcome; but kudos to you for doing the exact right thing.

    3. Ihmmy*

      Way to go!!! That’s always daunting to try and bring up tactfully, I’m glad it worked out :)

    4. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Nice!

      I have a hard time with the same thing, but I think about if I was in their shoes. Would I want to give my coworker a headache? Of course not, I’d much rather them tell me and I can fix it! It helps me feel better about asking them.

    5. TheCupcakeCounter*

      My best friend (who is also a former coworker) is allergic to perfumes as well. I know it isn’t funny but her reaction was to basically have a hot flash and turn very blotchy (no breathing issues or headaches). There were times that she would come running into my cube and plop down under my desk and start stripping to cool down. She was trying to be subtle but 1) everyone saw her running through the floor and 2) i would laugh so hard I started snorting. I felt back for her but it was so funny and dramatic that I couldn’t help it. She made jokes about it all the time (and kept coming back) so I know she wasn’t offended by my laughter. Unfortunately we don’t work together anymore so I don’t get anymore visits.

  70. Jaguar*

    Anyone have motivational strategies on job searching?

    I need to make a jump forward in my career around now and my current job doesn’t provide any real opportunity for that. I’ve got all the technical stuff completed (researched the best job hunting resources for my field [IT]/area, updated resume and built up a library of cover letter language to work from, set up job alerts for things, etc.), but I’m stuck on the same thing I always get stuck on: I hate doing it, there’s no urgent need to do it, and it’s easier not to do it. I hate having to justify myself to people / hustle. I’m currently mentally kicking in the door and eventually it will open and I’ll be back in the rhythm of looking for work, but I figured I’d ask if anyone has any motivational or mental tricks they use to deal with it.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Mini goals? Push yourself to do 4 applications a week, one every other day (or whatever is appropriate for your field), and don’t let yourself watch tv or eat dessert before it’s done. If you tell yourself “just 45 minutes then I get to watch The Real Housewives” it’s easier and you’ll feel less guilty for procrastinating it.

      1. Jaguar*

        Hah. I should stick to a system where all I allow myself to do is watch The Real Housewives until I get my quota of applications out.

    2. East of Nowhere south of Lost*

      Last time i was job searching, i made that my job. I invested at least 8 hours a day in looking up positions, calling recruiters, polishing resumes and making contacts. It was a good mental exercise ‘interview as if interviewing WAS your job’. Helped me stay positive about the process and not wallow in the ‘i’ve been layed off poor me’ thoughtstream that wanted out. It worked too, I landed a new position in teapot data manipulation and storage within about 3 weeks.

      1. zora.dee*

        I’m in the same place as Jaguar, but my problem with the “make it your job” thing for me is I’m working fulltime right now, and I don’t have 8 hours. And it’s even hard to do it at night after work, I am tired and starving when I get home, and trying to fit in making/eating food, cleaning my house, laundry, paying bills, etc etc etc, I just never get started.

        I like the minigoals idea, but I will be keeping an eye on responses, too.

        Thanks for posting, Jaguar, good luck to you!

  71. Ann Furthermore*

    I’ve been job searching, and a few days ago got a great lead on a potential opportunity. I submitted my resume, and the recruiter called me back within a couple hours, and overall it was a very positive discussion. The salary I want (what I’m making now) is at the very high end of what they’re willing to pay, so that may be an issue.

    I am currently an Oracle nerd. I’ve been immersed in the Financials, Projects, and HR applications for many years. This position is very similar to what I do now, but with another ERP system that is very specific to the utilities industry. I’m wondering if stepping away from the Oracle work would be detrimental to me career-wise in the long run. Would my Oracle skills languish as their products continue to evolve? Or would having expertise in multiple ERP systems be seen as a positive?

    I’m also now feeling guilty for looking. It’s been a terrible week. I was in the ER with my daughter on Tuesday night (she was diagnosed with strep), so I had to stay home with her on Wednesday. Also on Wednesday my mom had chest pains and had to call 911, and ended up needing emergency surgery yesterday. So I’ve essentially taken the entire week off with very little notice, since I took Tuesday as a vacation day to extend the holiday weekend.

    I’ve got plenty of complaints about my employer, but this particular thing isn’t one of them. When you’ve got family emergencies, sick kids, etc, they are great about letting you take whatever time you need and it doesn’t get held against you later. So now I feel like kind of a sh*t for job searching when my boss is being so flexible. But I’m at a dead end there, so I need to move on.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Hey, you do what you need to! You can be grateful to your employer for being flexible with emergencies while still advocating for yourself and your career!

      No advice on Oracle, but I’m sending positive thoughts your way! Best wishes to your mom and daughter.

    2. Belle diVedremo*

      Just a reminder that you have been *exceedingly* flexible for your employer…

  72. Amanda*

    I have a third phone interview set up for next week! Has anyone been hired strictly over the phone? The hiring manager would be a remote boss so I guess it makes sense, but it feels weird to not even have a Skype meeting.

    I’m also a little hesitant because I’m not 100% sure the job is the direction I want to go in, but my current one is going downhill fast, which was why I was hunting in the first place. I had a discussion with my boss last week about the way my role is going and it devolved into her shouting at me, followed by her calling one of my co-workers to vent about me for an hour, so obviously this is not working out! I’ve never been on the bad side of any boss like this and I think the panic is making me want to take anything that pops up. Should I just try to hang in there until I find a good fit? I don’t think I will actually be fired since she’s been complaining for a year about another co-worker and hasn’t even started disciplinary action.

    1. CMT*

      Yep! I got my current job based off of one phone interview. I was nervous about it, too, but I ended up with a pretty great team of coworkers. I was applying at the end of grad school, when I was pretty desperate to find something to pay the bills once my student loan money was used up. I’d probably feel a little weirder about it now.

    2. Brownie Queen*

      I was hired for my job over the phone. I have moved positions etc. within my company and still never met my first boss or many of the managers I work with in person.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I completed an interview process entirely by phone, but was not offered the job. In truth, it said a lot about the company– they were in tech but not willing/able to do a Skype interview. Huge red flag.

    4. NaoNao*

      Yes, I found and interviewed and was hired for a job in the US of A while I was still living in the Philippines (I’m a US citizen who was working there on contract work for 3 years). It was a *little* nerve-wracking but the company was similar to my at the time current company, and had branches in the Philippines, and I was able to visit and say hi to a few counterparts in the Phils offices, and that helped. It is possible, although rare.

  73. Phoebe*

    I have a problem that I have no idea how to approach. I love my job and have no desire to leave it, but I’ve reached the top of the pay range for my position and have been at the same wage for the past few years. My problem is that the cost of things like rent, groceries, utilities and insurance continue to increase every year. That was fine for a while, but it’s getting to a point now where it’s not. My last pay increase of any kind was in 2011. I’ve been trying to find areas where I can take on new responsibilities, but I’m also wondering if I can I make a case for a cost of living increase? Is that even still a thing?

      1. Phoebe*

        yes, I know and they do, but as I said above, I’ve reached the top of the pay range for the position.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        And, honestly, they’re shooting themselves in the foot. Doesn’t sound as if Phoebe is being greedy—just wants to live. If they can’t pay her enough to live, then that’s how “market rate” gets determined, and she’ll either, based on market forces, find another job in the same area that pays what she needs, or find another job in a different area with a lower cost of living… or they have to pay her more.

        And if they don’t pay her more, and she leaves, they’ll likely have to pay her replacement more anyway.

        1. Phoebe*

          I’ve come to this very same conclusion, but I really don’t want to leave. A couple years ago they did add a 3% bonus that I get every January provided my performance has been up to par, but it’s just not the same as a pay increase. I’ve read a couple of articles that say this is becoming the new norm instead of giving cost of living increases and just wondered what others thought.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Cost-of-living increases should be standard (or at least they have been in all the jobs I’ve had). Sometimes I’ve gotten actual raises, but those are different from cost-of-living increases. A c-o-l is usually 2-3%. A raise is more in the 5-20% range.

      I would definitely make a case for a cost-of-living increase!

      1. Phoebe*

        Thank you for confirming that for me. I’ve been reading about companies replacing their cost of living increases with an annual bonus and that’s what they’ve done for me the last few years, but a bonus just isn’t the same as a 2-3% cost of living pay increase.

        1. CMT*

          Wait, I’m unclear about why the 3% bonus isn’t the same as a COLA. Is it just 3% of that one month’s salary?

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            My understanding is that the 3% bonus was contingent on performance and not a given:

            a 3% bonus that I get every January provided my performance has been up to par

      2. Tris Prior*

        Boyfriend’s company stopped giving cost of living raises because Social Security didn’t give one last year. The CEO reasoned that this means our cost of living has not increased and therefore no raises are necessary. Argh.

    3. BRR*

      You could try depending on how large the pay range is and how your salary compares to the market rate. My last employer had huge pay bands and when someone reached the top it meant you were being paid far above market rate. I know that is far from applicable everywhere but just some things to consider.

    4. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Yes! No raise in five years is definitely cause to bring up a cost of living increase. It’s something good companies do to retain their staff … it doesn’t make you greedy.

    5. ginger ale for all*

      I work for the state. They have set a pay range and there are no c.o.l. increases.

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, I have the same problem. I haven’t had any raise beyond a tiny col once in a great while in ten years. All of my bills are going up and now I have medical and car bills.

  74. RM*

    Waiting to hear back about a potential job can be so agonizing. I had an interview that went really well, and a couple days after they sent me a long and detailed follow-up email, stating that they had a few questions about my experience with a couple things (not deal breakers, but things that gave them pause) but they were really impressed overall with my enthusiasm. I sent a detailed reply, and the hiring manager said “Great answers!” A few weeks later, they said they were reviewing the position since the office structure was changing a little, but they would keep the doors open and get back to me in a “few weeks”. About three weeks have passed since then.

    I know last weekend was a holiday weekend, but if I don’t hear anything by the middle of next week, should I send a quick follow-up email? Or just give it time? Even if they hire someone else, or decide to freeze the position altogether or who knows what else, I hope they at least let me know.

    I will say that this blog has helped me a LOT – I know you don’t have an offer until you have a written offer in hand, and you have to keep applying (which I have been doing) until you find the right job. There’s more than one “dream” job out there.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I would definitely send a follow-up email. Today, in fact, though you may not hear back until next week.

  75. Random Lurker*

    Advice for handling an employee with an immature, all or nothing attitude? He had a conflict with his peer, and probably got more than he gave. Not a good exchange, but not the least professional thing I’ve ever seen. Since the conflict, he has told me he will not work here if his peer is still employed here. True to his word, he has called in sick the past two days rather than come to work.

    He isn’t leaving me with a lot of options short of termination at this point. In hindsight, he’s shown this attitude in the past (example: I told that sniping at someone he was mentoring in email was not good, he should soften his approach and have a verbal conversation instead; he said fine then he can’t mentor them at all. He eventually calmed down but the reaction is the same). How would some of you coach someone who acts this way?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Honestly I don’t know if someone like this can be coached at this point. He’s refusing to come to work unless someone is fired! That’s ridiculous!

      If he does come back to work, you need to lay down frank expectations with him. As in “You need to be flexible when things like x and x come up. I need you to stay focused on your work, and let me manage” etc. Then he’ll probably fail to do that, and you should fire him. At this point though, I might just let him go without all that since he’s acting like a 5 year old.

      1. Random Lurker*

        I’m leaning towards letting him go. I am more or less kicking myself for not catching the warning signs and addressing earlier.

    2. ASJ*

      “Okay, fair enough. You no longer work here.”

      Don’t spend/waste time coaching someone like that, unless they’re a stellar employee in all other ways.

      1. Random Lurker*

        He sort of is though :(. Not so stellar that he can dictate staffing decisions through temper tantrums. But a strong employee that life will suck for me for a bit if I cut ties.

        Why can’t adults behave like adults? Gahhhh.

        1. Leatherwings*

          But doesn’t life kind of already suck when you have to deal with tantrums and he uses PTO because he’s not getting his way? You can find a professional adult to take his place and it will relieve stress on everyone involved. Toxic people aren’t worth keeping around just because they mostly handle their tasks.

        2. Dawn*

          A truly “stellar employee” does NOT throw temper tantrums and refuse to come to work if he doesn’t get his way.

          He might do good work, but he is NOT STELLAR. In fact, he kinda sucks and is a manchild and you definitely should fire him and hire someone with a good attitude who can do the work. You can always teach someone job responsibilities but you CANNOT teach people to have good attitudes.

          1. Random Lurker*

            You are both right, of course. I’m just more focused on the “what” instead of the “how”.

            Is it time for wine yet? I think I’ve earned a glass today.

            1. Leatherwings*

              If you’re asking, that’s when you know it’s wine time! Pop open some red and good luck!

        3. NACSAJACK*

          As someone who used to see the world in black&white, my recommendation is this: You have an adult conversation with him. Here’s how I would start it: Bill, you don’t dictate staffing decisions to me. I am the manager and I decide who works here and who doesn’t. Given your behavior the last two days, I have decided you no longer work here. Please turn in your badge and computer to me now. I’ll escort you to HR for you to sign your termination papers. He’ll probably go back to his desk and try to widdle his way back into his job. Just give him the stare. A response, if you feel it necessary, could be “My decision is final.” Give him his perception of black&white.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Urgh, I’ve had friends with that kind of all-or-nothing attitude and it drives me up the wall every time. I can’t imagine how I’d feel dealing with someone on a professional level who was pulling that nonsense!

      Honestly, I’d reach out to him, ask if he is still holding to that policy, restate that he’s giving you a choice of firing him or the other guy, and then if he doesn’t back down, yep, fire him.

      You don’t owe it to him to teach him how to be flexible.

    4. Menacia*

      Wouldn’t you want to be the one in control of the situation regardless of his being a good performer? He’s holding you hostage in an effort to control the situation, which sounds like his entire MO. He wants control, if he can’t get control, he will do everything in his power to sway it to his side. Cut your ties, and find someone who knows how to play well with others.

    5. Chaordic One*

      What exactly to you mean when you say that he got more than he gave in his conflict with a peer?

      Did he receive more criticism than he gave in this conflict or did he give more than he gave? Was he subject to abuse and/or did he become abusive? Was the peer something of a bully? As a manager, sometimes you have have to step in and intervene in a conflict. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, you really shouldn’t have to do so but it comes with the territory.

      It seems like you just sort of walked away and seem to be avoiding it and left it for the two of them work it out themselves. Or not.

      If he was subject to abuse or unfair criticism, why aren’t you talking with the peer about his or her role in the situation? It comes off like you’re blaming the victim. (A victim, who admittedly lacks social skills, conflict resolution skills and also probably self-esteem.)

      When you’re coaching him, start off by giving examples of a better, more positive ways of mentoring someone by email or in person. See if you can get him to acknowledge some enthusiasm for the better method and do this BEFORE you tell him that his method came off like sniping, was harsh and was less effective than a verbal conversation.

      Is there anything you can do to build up his self-esteem some way? Does he ever do anything good? And if so, have you ever praised him or thanked him for it? It sounds like you’re always down on him and criticizing him. And you seem to be allowing his peer to do so also, and then blaming him for an inappropriate reaction while ignoring the cause that provoked him into that inappropriate reaction.

      1. Observer*

        No. Just no.

        All of this might be relevant in the context of someone who is asking to not work with someone or for some protection AND who has a reasonable track record of behavior. But NEITHER is the case here. He is demanding that someone be fired. And, his track record is NOT great. Neither in this case, nor in the example given are we looking at an issue of possibly poor social skills, etc.

        You’re also reading a lot that simply isn’t there in the post.

    6. Observer*

      I don’t think I would coach someone like this. Unless there is a danger of some sort, or something illegal going on “It’s either me or him” should generally be met with “don’t let the door hit you on the way out.” If it’s a good employee with a good track record, you go with “Go home and calm down. We’ll talk in two days.”

      This guy doesn’t sound like someone worth extending yourself for, and what he is asking for is just not reasonable.

  76. Belle*

    Just a bit of a rant today. I found out two weeks ago that most likely my job is going to be eliminated. I found out accidentally but my manager denied it when I brought up my position through 2016 (he also mumbled and took a while to say anything when I asked).

    I am ticked though because I have the most seniority of my peers, I am the only one who has actually supported our multi-sites and I just put in for FMLA when I found out my position is being eliminated while my peer of 6 months with the company is not being let go. I was also told by another person that “she is a single mother and you have a spouse, so you are being let go.”

    I am now looking quickly for a new position. But I hate when a manager doesn’t act professionally and fess up. And you better believe that I will be asking for severance when the news is officially given to me.

    1. ASJ*

      Wow. That’s taking prioritizing parents over non-parents to a new level, if that’s really true.

    2. Graciosa*

      One small caveat – sometimes a manager’s job actually requires keeping the information quiet. I completely understand your being upset about this and even further upset about not getting a straight answer. I would be too. There are, however, sometimes legal and policy reasons for the timing of the release of information, so the “professional” thing for the manager to do is actually not what you think. Even managers who have the information may actually be prohibited from sharing it (or confirming it) outside of the permitted schedule.

      This totally sucks for you, and I really do sympathize.

      1. Belle*

        I am in our HR team so I understand needing to keep things quiet. However, to tell your team one month earlier that all jobs were safe and if that changed you would tell us immediately so we could job search — and then to have the VP of HR call me and quietly tell me I am losing my job…well, it doesn’t reflect well on the company. I am glad he gave me a heads up but my boss also directly lied to me. The professional thing would have been to say, “yes, it may happen. I understand if you need some extra time to interview in case it does.” Instead, I got a call from my two-up manager telling me confidentially when he wasn’t supposed to because he brought me on the team and felt guilty.

        I get that it happens — I just wish it didn’t. Okay, rant over :)

        1. Graciosa*

          Ouch – now I’m both really sorry about the situation and kind of amazed at how unprofessional the VP of HR was. If you’re in HR, you also know that these things change (including who is on the list) which is one more reason no one is supposed to say anything early.

          I do get the impulse to help, but I’m pretty shocked at an HR VP breaking the rules (although I understand why you appreciate it).

          The best example I saw of someone handling this was a person who was not allowed to announce that his entire division was going to be eliminated. He arranged to transfer his best employee away to another area, although that employee was really upset about it and didn’t understand why his boss was getting rid of him and the boss couldn’t explain. I assume the employee figured it out when the announcements came several months later, but keeping quiet all that time was really hard.

          I hope things go well for you in finding a new job, and I’m really sorry you’re going through this. It doesn’t matter how much people try to explain this objectively – in the sense that these decisions are not meant to be personal – they always *feel* personal, and no amount of explanation changes the fact that someone else just changed your life without your permission.

  77. Kairi*

    About 2 months ago, I was promoted into a marketing role at my company, and one of my primary goals is back link generation. My boss had me finding places to leave comments (which essentially just promote our company) but I had my reservations as it doesn’t seem super efficient and seems too sales-y. I’ve posted some comments over the last month as I was asked, and had a terrible ratio of things actually staying posted since they either didn’t pass moderation or were marked as spam.

    10 minutes ago – my worst fear about using this method came true. I received an e-mail that my comment been marked as spam, and the blogger actually reached out to someone in the company to complain about the post. Luckily, I’m not in trouble as I was just doing my job – but I just feel super awkward about it.

    I guess I’ll just take it as a blessing in disguise as I now have proof that it’s not an efficient method and can finally work with my boss to pursue other methods. I just hate that it happened on a Friday, it puts a damper on the day. :(

    1. ASJ*

      I’m sorry. I’m not sure why companies think this pans out. You can almost always tell when it’s an employee leaving these comments. Try not to let it sour your weekend!

      1. Kairi*

        Those were my thoughts exactly! I spoke to my coworkers about it, and they kept reassuring me that it’s okay and I was just doing my job, which made me feel better.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      Oh dear heavens, I do not even know where to start.

      First of all, back link generation (of the methods you describe) isn’t marketing. It’s, generously, adjacent to marketing or, perhaps falls under the umbrella of/reports to marketing, but it is not marketing. You don’t put a marketing person on back link generation.

      In addition, the particular back link generation method you’ve been asked to use is so outdated and old it’s yelling at all the other methods to get off of its lawn. It DOES NOT WORK. It might have worked-ish 5 years ago for some short term effect but absolutely DOES NOT WORK in 2016.

      IDK what the hell qualification your boss thinks she has for SEO but she’s so very wrong.

      If you’d like to add any more to this thread on what all ya’ll are trying to accomplish overall, and what type of business you have, I’m happy to chime in with a little advice about where to go from here.

        1. Kairi*

          Luckily, that’s not my entire job, I also help with some email campaigns, partner management and blogger outreach. I completely agree that it was an outdated method, I just didn’t want to look bad in my first few months on a new job.

          The goal of what I agree is “comment spam” was to increase online visibility for our software company. I’ve come up with a few different ways to increase brand recognition that I’ll bring up in the team meeting on Monday. I’m always welcome to suggestions if you’ve got any though :)

          1. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

            I’ve only ever heard the term “backlink generation” used in the very specific application of SEO optimization. The idea is to generate backlinks to your website in order to increase your site’s authority so that Google will boost your site in search results.

            Once upon a time, the method your boss instructed would work to that end, at least for short term results, but you would never put in an in house marketing person on that. Work like that was farmed out to agencies who then farmed it to interns or India. For the truly low belly folks, bots would handle the work.

            Google has been working assiduously to close up all of the pathways possible for manipulating search results. This particular path was sealed up so long ago, I wonder why there’s any comment spam left anymore. (I think it’s left because bottom feeders have been selling the service for so long, they are still hard selling the service, even though it doesn’t actually work. )

            SO, if the problem your boss is trying to solve is visibility or SEO, pretty much the only pathways remaining are the legit ones – spending $$$$$ on advertising, reaching out to experts for a boost, perhaps writing as an expert yourself on various legit sites.

            I’d drive to “what is she trying to accomplish”, first. If the real answer is SEO, you should start with an SEO audit from a legit agency (which is not the easiest thing to find, the legit ones, gotta kiss a lotta frogs).

            1. Kairi*

              I’m responding late, but I just wanted to say thanks for all this. I’m going into a meeting in an hour to discuss this topic with my boss and I think defining the “what am I trying to accomplish” will be a big help.

  78. LawCat*

    I’ve been on vacation for a couple weeks. A job I’m really excited about called me for a second interview, but it’s in another city (the actual job is in my city, but the big boss doing the interview is in a different city). I texted my boss and asked if I could come back from vacation on Tuesday instead of Monday and it was no problem. So now I have a second interview on Monday that I’ll be totally refreshed and relaxed going into. We’re actually getting home tonight so I’ll have the weekend to prep and review some materials from Alison’s book. Cross your fingers for me AAM friends. :-)

  79. AnonToday*

    I am waiting to hear about a job opportunity/interview for a buyer position for a Specialty food distributor. Although I have worked as a buyer in the past, my experience has been buying electronic parts, hardware, etc.
    I would appreciate anyone who can give me some advice regarding buying for a food distributor. Looking for top 10 important things to know for this type of job or any advice.

  80. Muriel Heslop*

    My boss just sent me a request to follow me on Instagram. Yuck! I don’t want to accept but she is the type to get offended. Can I pretend I didn’t see it? What do I say?

    1. alice*

      Risk offending her and say, “I prefer to keep my work and social life separate. Thanks for understanding!” That is what I do with all social media connections from work people. I cannot understand why people want to be online buddies with coworkers/bosses.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        Alas, I already let her follow me on Facebook (with limited access and I seldom use it) but I use IG more. My account is private so I may just ignore it and play dumb. Thanks! I wish we weren’t connected, either. Makes no sense.

        1. Sadsack*

          I think it’s fine to say what Alice suggested anyway. Is your manager you g to argue with you about the fact that you have a FB account and how much you use it?

  81. ali*

    Vague questions for those of you in nonprofits… How much authority does your Executive Director have? Do they have the authority to fire/hire staff on their own or do they need the Board or at least Board Chair’s approval? If you have a Board that is more governance and oversight rather than hands-on, how much input and information do they usually have about day-to-day activities?

    1. LQ*

      We had a very hands on board but the ED still had full authority to hire and fire on their own. Their input was on direction of the organization. Things like grants, most of the time we had to run by them, but usually that was a hey this would be for a new grant to do This Other thing. For grants we didn’t have to run them by the board if they were for projects that were ongoing things. When we moved they had some input. But like in the actual office day to day work? Basically none.

    2. Not Karen*

      I’m pretty sure our executive folk don’t have any direct hiring/firing power; it all has to go through the HR department.

      TBH I don’t know what the Board does. I think they only deal with big things like our search for a new office building.

    3. Leatherwings*

      We have a really hands off board and the ED has almost complete autonomy to run the org/hire and fire employees. It’s possible that the ED needs an okay from the board to fire senior managers, but I doubt it. It’s never happened, so I can’t say for sure.

    4. AF*

      Best practices usually are that the ED has authority to hire and fire. One org I worked with had board members on a hiring committee, but it was a small org with no HR dept. They would participate in interviews and have a lot of say in hiring decisions. And they were really just there because the ED didn’t have much hiring experience. (I don’t think we ever actually fired anyone though, but I would imagine that the ED would’ve gone to them for advice). In most orgs, I think the board is there in a consultative role, but the ED is the person in charge of day-to-day. The board CAN have input and information (and the ED can update them), but it isn’t a rule. And sometimes the board can have too much input, and that’s super annoying for the ED. I think it has a lot to do with the strengths/experience of the ED.

    5. Sarah*

      If you have a paid executive director, they should have absolute authority to hire/fire staff. The board should not be involved in the day-to-day operations, but rather in governance, strategy, and vision. You will see working boards (those with no paid staff) to be more hands-on, but with paid staff, they should back off.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yep, that’s how it’s supposed to work. ED has full hire/fire authority for the whole staff, and the board has hire/fire authority for the ED but shouldn’t be involved in the day to day running of the organization.

      2. Observer*

        That’s generally true, although there are some exceptions. The most common thing I’ve seen (talking about reasonably run organizations, not micro-manager boards) is more involvement in program director positions (ie the level directly below the ED) in moderate sized organizations and broader salary changes (especially at the level right below the ED.

    6. Pwyll*

      It’s generally best practice for the Board of Directors to approve the budget for staff, and for the Executive Director to have hiring/firing power. It’s usually a good idea for the ED to be communicating with the Board Chair about these sorts of things so the Board isn’t blindsided, but at the same time, unless the By-Laws state otherwise it’s usually not a great practice for the Board to be voting on hiring below the ED level.

      Some of the best organizations I worked with invited Board members to participate on hiring key employees as a part of interviews, but the decision still rested with the ED. The Board’s job really is supposed to be vision, mission and oversight of the funds, not daily management.

    7. BRR*

      Depends on the size of the nonprofit for me to guess and ultimately depends on the organizations bylaws. They might need board approval for higher positions like the CFO. They might be able to do it for their assistant on their own. They might not be involved in some firings or hirings if they organization is larger.

    8. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Our ED has authority over the organization in all operational aspects (including hiring/firing, etc.) I’m sure that when the Board has strong feelings over a particular aspect of day-to-day operations he takes it into consideration, but generally speaking he has the authority over that sort of thing.

    9. Chaordic One*

      In a nonprofit that I’m involved in, the ED has the authority to fire and hire staff on their own. Rarely, a fired employee will appeal their firing to the Board who has the authority to override the ED. During the time I’ve been there this has happened only once. The Board supported the ED in firing a senior level employee for misconduct and the former employee then filed suit in court alledging unlawful dismissal. The case is still winding its way through the courts.

    10. Observer*

      Why do you ask?

      If you looking at a job in an organization where the ED needs Board or even Chairman authorization for routine hire / fire decisions, you want to take that as a red flag and look very closely at how that organization operates.

      1. ali*

        I ask because I’m board chair of an organization that has gone through some substantial growth in the last couple of years and we are adding (and have now fired) employees. The board is having a tough time letting go of the day-to-day stuff, but the ED is so overwhelmed with everything going on that I’m not sure she’s doing a great job at managing the staff (everything else she’s amazing at). I feel like we have to find a balance between what she does and what we do.

  82. Evie*

    Anyone have experience with their company closing and unemployment? I’m technically the one who should be approving it for everyone but since I was also laid off I can’t really do that. I’m assuming it just auto approves at some point since the company isn’t responding. I tried to call and ended up on hold for almost 2 hours on a “slower” day on their list of good days to call.

    I’m in Maine.

    1. LQ*

      I can’t speak for Maine but usually if you say that you were laid off it will just sort of go through the approval process. Just make sure you tell them that you were laid off and the company closed up shop.

      For my state it was a very simple process since it was a lay off, there wasn’t any delay in getting benefits. Do file online if you can. Go in assuming you will get benefits. On the off chance there is a denial, appeal it. Your company isn’t going to fight it! :)

      Good luck.

      1. Evie*

        The owner of the company did write a letter that I sent to unemployment on behalf of all of us but I don’t know what that will do. Thanks!

        1. LQ*

          Just apply, you’ll be fine. I can’t think of a state where you wouldn’t get benefits (if other people who worked at your org got benefits before).

    2. anon HigherEd*

      I’m not in Maine, but I recently experienced this–except my company didn’t officially tell me I was laid off, just that they didn’t have enough money to pay me….Obviously, this place was TOXIC. If you say you are laid off and then the company doesn’t reply, it just goes through. From what I have been told and personal experience anyway. Good luck!

  83. Charles*

    I have worked for an academic institution for over 21 years as a professional staff employee. I am mid-management and was recently passed over for a promotion when my supervisor retired, even though she supported me for the position and was in good standing with the administration. (Also, this is the only advancement opportunity for me unless I were to be hired as full time faculty.) A year before her retirement, I completed my MFA because I realized that teaching was more fulfilling. With the blessing of my administration, I obtained my degree with the hope of teaching at the school. Recently, during a performance review, my new supervisor (of then 7 months) mentioned a teaching opportunity in my department, but he and the administration were talking about hiring an outside individual as an adjunct to teach the courses. When I asked why I wasn’t being considered, I was told bluntly, “A lot of people would have to die before you would be hired as faculty.” I was in shock and disbelief. My supervisor told me that this was told to him by the president of my institution. He also asked me to keep it quiet. He said he was only sharing this with me because it didn’t seem fair to me for me not to know this information. He was “doing me a favor” by sharing this with me and looking out for my best interest, but it didn’t feel that way.
    I am puzzled why my institution would invest in my education only to deny me the opportunity to use it? I feel completely manipulated and defeated. Not only was I not the person they wanted to lead my department, but I am also not the person they want teaching there, either. My previous 20 annual performance reviews were consistently above average with two of them obtaing an “Outstanding” rating in our system which the highest rating possible. Historically I am an excellent employee. This is documented fact.
    My question is this: Is there a way to find out what is really going on, or should I look for new employment?

    1. Graciosa*

      Look for new employment.

      The basic rule is that someone higher up can – as should now be apparent to you – torpedo your opportunities for advancement. It seems like the president doesn’t like you, and has succeeded in ensuring you cannot be promoted or start teaching at your current institution. I’m not sure what you think you can “find out” about “what is really going on” that would change that reality. You’re not going to win here, although I suppose you could waste a lot of time and energy on ineffective attempts.

      I realize that academic environments are frequently a little more rigid in hiring and promotion evaluations (supposedly to prevent this kind of thing) but that didn’t help you with the promotion, and I don’t think it will change anything else in the future. I doubt the president was stupid enough to leave a nice written email trail of evidence showing he is sabotaging your opportunities *for a legally prohibited reason* (because no other reasons will matter).

      The smarter course would be to spend that time and energy finding another job. The opportunity to use your MFA is a perfect justification for moving to a new institution (“because even though Current Institution was incredibly supportive of my getting the MFA, there just wasn’t a good opportunity for me to teach there”).

      The best revenge would be success (somewhere else).

      Good luck.

    2. C Average*

      What Graciosa said. Move on.

      I had a not-dissimilar experience early in my career, when a colleague, as an (in her mind) act of kindness, let me know that I had no hope of ever getting hired in a particular department because the director of that department did not like me personally and felt that I was all wrong for that type of work.

      In retrospect, I should have taken that information at face value and considered that opportunity closed to me, but I probed for answers and got them. It was basically like the work version of asking someone who is breaking up with you WHY exactly they’re breaking up with you: you probably don’t really want to know, because their complaints are quite likely not actionable. You can only change so much about the way you are. There are people who are going to dislike you and consider you ineligible for certain opportunities for their own reasons, and once you know those reasons exist, that’s all you really need to know. There’s not an appeals process.

      Good luck! I’ll bet there’s some employer out there who will value you, your outstanding work, and your MFA.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Wow. I am so sorry this happened to you. Yes, please start looking for a new job ASAP. It’s obvious that there’s some bias going on, and I doubt you’d ever be able to find the real root of it.

    4. BRR*

      Look for new employment if you want to move up or teach. They have made it clear for whatever reasons it won’t happen there. I’m not exactly sure of the details of the situation but is it possible that it was because you are split between teaching and management?

      For teaching, were passed over for someone who has more teaching experience? If you’ve been a professional staff employee and haven’t taught either in a long time or ever it’s possible they wanted someone with prior teaching experience. It’s a pretty common requirement and there’s just a glut of people for teaching positions.

      For the promotion, there’s not a whole lot of information in your comment. My thoughts are did they hire someone with more experience that would be needed for this position? I’ve been places where there have been openings but the people one step below the opening don’t have the experience needed for the position. It’s also possible that they wanted a set of new ideas if they hired from the outside.

      1. Ama*

        What I found when I was in academic administration was that once you got pigeonholed as staff it was VERY difficult to get anyone to see you as anything other than “support” — especially if you had responsibility for any “basic” clerical tasks like fixing the copier, distributing mail, etc. At my last institution most people only moved up by transferring to other departments — it was very rare for someone to move up all the way to department head in the same department they started in.

        Either your new boss is telling the truth, in which case someone else has it out for you, or he’s lying because *he* wants to block you for some reason. It doesn’t really matter why, you clearly won’t get a fair shake for any advancement as long as you stay there.

    5. I'm Not Phyllis*

      That’s awful … I would look for new employment for several reasons. While they supported your education it seems that their direction for your department has changed. Plus your new manager is an ass.

    6. Artemesia*

      You have been given the message loud and clear. It could not be more obvious that they don’t respect you as potential faculty material or leadership material. I think it is incredibly difficult to move from any sort of staff position to faculty position even when the person is very well qualified as I am sure you are. Ideally, they would have had you teach a course as part of your duties as a way to give you a try out; it would have cost them nothing and given you a chance to use your new degree and show them and yourself what you could do. It sucks that they didn’t give you this chance. But the handwriting is now on the wall for you.

      You can probably rock along in your present position indefinitely so you don’t have to panic or hurry, but I would begin planning your future around moving on. Is it possible that you might get an adjunct position at another institution for one course to get a try out so you can see if that is where you want to go? Do this while continuing your current work. Is it possible for you to get art shows or other ways to showcase your work (I am assuming visual arts here since a big part of the resume is that you have shown your work as an artist — if it is in a field where that doesn’t apply, think about what the publication or presentation venues might be)

      So don’t feel rushed, but begin to really think about what you would like to be doing and what the steps are between where you are now and where you would like to be and take the first step. So often people are not valued in a setting they have been in for a long time — the old ‘prophet not honored in his own land’ thing.

      Hope five years from now you are looking back on this and smiling from a position that values you and your talents.

    7. Ccccccc...*

      Just chiming in as an academic and former professor: I understand that the comment you received stung, and was impolitic as f*%k, but I’d like to suggest that it isn’t meant as the deeply personal evaluation that you perceive it to be.

      First, I’m not sure from your post which position you might be in. Are you staff in an academic department, in a library or center, or in academic administration (Dean’s office; Provost or Vice-Provost)? Whatever the answer – and I say this NOT as a put-down but to illustrate the thinking – you’re not faculty. Do you have a track record of teaching in your department (or in another)? As you know, the division of labor in higher ed is pretty clear-cut: in traditional departments, faculty teach, and being faculty typically requires a PhD specifically in the discipline, as well as college teaching experience.

      There are a few exceptions (in arts fields, the MFA cunts as a terminal degree rather than the PhD) – but in the typical scenario I’ve described above, it would be perfectly normal for someone in your position to NOT be considered for a teaching position. That’s not a reflection of people’s poor opinions of you, it’s just… apples and oranges. Really: ability or seniority don’t come into it in such a case; it’s just a question of not having the right training.

      As for obtaining the MFA: colleges and universities usually do allow employees to take courses for free, as part of the benefits of being academic staff. The fact that you got the MFA is really great – *but* you can’t take it as a sure sign of the administration endorsing you as future faculty (albeit adjunct). I understand that you harbored hopes of teaching, but it’s hard to see institutional support towards a degree as a guarantee they gave you. I’m sorry you feel manipulated, but I can’t see that this is what happened here. Again, perhaps the specifics of your case make my analysis irrelevant. But in higher ed, the paths and duties of faculty and staff are completely, utterly distinct, and outstanding performance reviews would not make up for the highly-specialized research, training, and teaching experience it takes to run a course for undergrads.

      1. Ccccccc...*

        !!!Oh good grief – the MFA *counts*. That ‘o’ makes all the difference.

        1. Charles*

          BTW – I paid for 95% of my dregree. Not exactly a free ride on their dime. They averaged 3-5% financial support while I was attending grad school.

      2. Charles*

        Thanks for your insight and comments. Yes, I am staff in our theatre department. I would agree that there were no guarantees of a teaching position once I completed my degree. I had several conversations with the dean of our art school, our academic dean, my supervisor (at the time) and the president about my intentions of wanting to move into a teaching position and all were encouraging. I have taught as an adjunct for the last 4 years and have taught undergrads as an ABD (All But Degree) instructor in the past.

        In addition to my supervisor retiring last year, our president (who made the comments) just retired last month. I feel, however, that the “well is poisoned” so to speak. I agree with most of the others comments about moving on to another institution. Family is a huge consideration in my case, but I am actively searching fpr that next opportunity.
        Again, thanks for the comments.

  84. Carly*

    I have a weird issue! My boss sat me down to tell me I had to break up with someone in the office because there were complaints. Except, I’m not dating this guy they referred to and we’ve definitely never given that impression. Unless saying good morning is suddenly scandalous? I’m really mad and not sure if I should ignore it or confront my boss about it. (He sat me down to tell me this right before heading out to catch a flight for a business trip). I’m from Ontario and I don’t have a contract and there’s absolutely no reason I couldn’t date this guy if I wanted to – which is what I want to tell my boss but I’m not sure if it’s worth it and a big part of me just says ‘get out of the company as soon as you can’.

    1. Nanc*

      I would just look boss in the eye and say “I’m not dating Whathisname.” If boss wants to probe about the “problem” I would just repeat myself and suggest boss go back to the complainers and ask why they’re spreading false information.

      Also, why is it on YOU to break up? Did boss tell Whathisname the same thing? Yeesh!

      1. Sadsack*

        I would be real curious about that. This is a really awkward position for Carly to be put in with her boss and with the coworker.

      2. Carly*

        Right?! It’s been four days now and nobody has said a word to my coworker. And my boss returned from his trip this afternoon and has been going out of his way to avoid me.

        1. Artemesia*

          You didn’t tell him this WHEN he told you to break up? If not, why not. I’d be seeking him out and making it clear.

    2. SophieChotek*

      How odd! Reminds me of the letter of the woman who was not having an affair…
      Sounds like a very uncomfortable place to be! I’m sorry…
      Update if you can!

    3. Sadsack*

      I am sorry for misunderstanding, but why didn’t you say in the moment that you aren’t dating? I get that your manager was on his way out, but unless he was yelling to you from his car window, I don’t get it. I would definitely talk to him about it when he returns. I’d say you aren’t dating whoever and that you don’t know where anyone got that impression. I wouldn’t get into the fact that you could if you want to, because why bother.

      1. Carly*

        I did say! The conversation went something like

        “You are dating Paul”
        (my mouth literally drops open) “what?!”
        “You are dating Paul”
        “I am definitely not”
        “Yes you are, there have been complaints about the relationship and you need to end it”
        “There is nothing to end as we are not in a relationship”
        “Carly, I don’t want to hear it. End the relationship, it’s inappropriate” (leaves office to car while I’m still sitting in shock)

        1. Artemesia*

          Okayyyy. You obviously did the best you could here. I’d be doing the ‘what was that about?’ conversation with the boss. And I would suggest strongly that he confront whoever told him you were dating and deal with the rumor spreader since you and Paul are not and have not been in a relationship.

      2. Cookie*

        She was probably in shock and too surprised to respond. That’s how I get when someone says something completely out of left field.

    4. I'm Not Phyllis*

      What a strange thing! I would talk to him at your next opportunity and just tell him that you were stunned in the moment but wanted to clarify that you and Guy are not dating.

      If you have a close friendship (and it doesn’t seem like you do from your note?) maybe people have this impression, but you should be able to set the record straight fairly easily. Also hi fellow Ontarian!

      1. Carly*

        Hello fellow Ontarian! You’re right, we don’t have a close relationship, I treat him the same as all my other coworkers and I’ve never even spoken to him outside of work hours!

        My boss returned today and I was going to clarify, again, that I’m not dating this guy but he was avoiding me (fake cell phone calls in the hallway and all!) so I didn’t get a chance to.

        2. Girasol*

          I had that problem: getting called to the carpet about something that never happened and told I was lying to avoid blame when I told him the truth. And then the same thing would follow: he wouldn’t speak to me for a couple months, and then we were suddenly on good terms as though it had never happened. If I mentioned the matter he would say “I don’t remember ever saying that.” After awhile I realized that he was avoiding me not because he was too furious for words but because he discovered the rumor was false and was embarrassed to face me, and he was trying to pretend the whole thing didn’t happen. This happened several times but it all worked out okay in the end so I stayed. Then a particular rumormonger found out how much fun he could have, things got out of hand, and the rumors ended up in my evaluation. Don’t learn the hard way like I did: this is a big red flag. Get away from the manager.

          1. TootsNYC*

            Yeah, if you’ve got an HR department, or even if he’s got a boss, I might take this there, formally, in a memo, with a specific mention that you do not want untruths to find their way into your evaluations, reviews, or any record with the company.

            I might have been really tempted to stand on a desk and say loudly, “I want to make it really clear. I am not dating Paul. He is not dating me. The end.”

    5. Undine*

      Are there any vibes that your boss might be interested in you? Or maybe a story about another couple somehow got garbled (which would be terrible, because he didn’t check.) Whatever it is, he’s not dealing with it well (avoiding you — really?) and yeah, he doesn’t sound like someone you want to work for long term.

      1. StillHealing*

        I was thinking perhaps another female employee was interested in Paul and was super jealous anytime Paul and Carly were talking. Maybe jealous employee bent supervisors ear and manufactured an inappropriate relationship to get the supervisor to give Carly a talking to? The goal would be to ban any interaction therefore eliminating coworkers perceived competition.

        Just a thought….but Carly, is your boss always that weird about things?

        1. Carly*

          It’s funny you say that because I called Paul to warn him about the story going around and the first thing he said, once he finally finished laughing at the absurdity of the situation, is that he thinks it was Rachel for that very reason!!

  85. Jules the First*

    I need virtual hugs!

    Many of you are familiar with my saga with UselessGirl…about a month ago, she blew it on a bid, which last week resulted in us getting disqualified from the tender. I have spent probably 10 hours in the last week unravelling the fallout. Today I met with the CEO to discuss the legal implications of her error and though I BADLY wanted to emphasise that it was her mistake (because I could have sorted it in seconds flat if she’d showed me the problem more than 90 minutes before the deadline), I took the high road and said ‘we’ in all the explanations.

    I know I did the mature thing by not throwing her under the bus (this is not her first multi-million £ mistake), but my inner five year old is seriously pouty that UselessGirl didn’t speak up and say ‘it was my fault’ so my boss would know I wouldn’t have let it happen.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Oh my. I haven’t seen your whole story (had the pleasure of being OOO on Fridays for a few weeks), but I am sending virtual hugs. Bidding on work is a huge deal for us in my company, too. I’ve “heard stories” of teams doing all the work to put together a bid, and then the bid coordinator had the cut-off time wrong and we didn’t get to submit it, or various other avoidable snafus that just make you crazy.

      Congratulations on taking the high road. I think you’re better off for it. Karma has a way of working these things out, either way, so better to not invite trouble for the next bid. : )

    2. SophieChotek*

      Ouch virtual hugs from me also!

      (And I admire you taking the high road…

      although part of me wonders in what instances is it the right time to “point fingers” if it really is the fault of one person…)

    3. Dynamic Beige*

      I think there’s a difference between throwing someone under the bus and putting responsibility where it lies.

      If UselessGirl had made this mistake, spoke with the CEO and then said it was your fault, that’s throwing you under the bus. Not mentioning that she only left you 90 minutes to fix this problem is putting all of the responsibility for the failure on you.

      If you had said in your meeting with CEO that you are concerned with UselessGirl’s priorities/inability to manage her time/leaving things to the last minute, you would have been able to correct the mistake before it was too late, but that because you only had 90 minutes, it was not enough time to mitigate the damage… that’s not throwing someone under the bus, that’s highlighting what it’s actually like to work with this person.

      If UselessGirl is someone you manage, then using “we” is appropriate because you should have been on her to hand it in early for proofing/review or whatever, given you know her work is not up to snuff. You might want to consider that it might be more mature to weather how bad you feel about it and to let UselessGirl feel the weight of her own mistakes. She’s not learning anything other than she can get away with stuff like this and other people are going to throw themselves on their own swords to cover for her.

      1. Jules the First*

        I would happily carry the can if I were UselessGirl’s manager. Unfortunately, my team is subject to split reporting – I am responsible to the CEO for the quality of my work (and the department’s, because I’m the senior lead) but the COO hires and fires in my department. And they don’t get along.

        The tl;dr version is that CEO thinks I should be UselessGirl’s manager (because she’s useless) but COO is insistent that UG and I should be peers (because otherwise he’d have to admit to yet another hiring error).

        So UG makes mistakes, which I am powerless to stop because I can’t compell her to check with me, and CEO gets understandably angry that we’re losing out on work because of avoidable mistakes, but if I stop covering for her, COO accuses me of sabotaging her and not working as a team.

        Eventually, they’ll either exit the COO (resolving the split reporting) or I’ll get a new job and UG will be someone else’s problem. (In my better weeks, I can just about manage to be ok with this!)

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          I take it from the “accuses me of sabotaging her” comment that you and COO do not get along?

          Because if you do, this would be the perfect time to tell COO that UG didn’t come to you earlier for you to check the numbers/proofread/your assistance and because of that, $RecentJob was lost. What would COO suggest you do going forward to prevent this from happening again as you are keen to not lose giant projects like this in the future? Should UG go to COO directly for the input?

          Also, while I understand your frustration and working with someone who is not suited or experienced enough for the job they have… as my mother was a single working mother, kind of rubs me the wrong way to be calling your colleague “Useless.” I’m sure she’s not completely useless, just in over her head and not suitable for the position she currently finds herself in. I hope she’s job searching because she really should find something that’s more up her alley.

          1. Jules the First*

            COO and I get along fine…it’s mostly that I was hired over his head by his boss (now deceased) and he doesn’t really understand the nuances of the department (which is why I was hired, and why the CEO is now responsible for the quality of the department’s work).

            The sabotage claims go back to the first (enormous) mistake she made, while she was newly on probation, where I told her several times that she needed to do something and when it was discovered that she hadn’t done it, I told both the COO and the CEO that I’d reminded her to do it, and I wasn’t her boss, so what more did they want me to do? COO interpreted this as a power grab…

            I’m not implying that single working mothers are useless, just that this one happens to be useless at the job she’s currently in. Informing the project leader of the date of jury interviews, and understanding how to register the company on a procurement website are fundamental aspects of managing a bid – I would be disappointed if one of my junior team members screwed that up…to screw it up when you are a lead is embarassingly poor form. But unfortunately because the COO (who doesn’t understand how to do our job) does all of her evaluations and feedback (without ever looking at the quality of her work or talking to someone who does review it), she’s got no idea that she’s well over her head. So no, she’s not job hunting.

        2. Undine*

          Is there anyway to introduce this to the CEO as “we need to change the process. We’ve been seeing a lot of errors and we should add another verification step here.” If you can get the CEO to hand that down as a procedural change, without naming names, that might help. Or suggest your coworker gets some training.

          At some point, you may need to say directly that the split responsibility is part of the cause of these errors, and throw the COO under the bus instead of UselessWoman. Because that really sounds like the bigger problem here.

          1. Jules the First*

            I wish. The problem is that it’s already in the process, she’s just not doing it. (Which I agree would normally be cause for revamping the process, but everyone else in the department is having no problems).

            The mistakes she’s making are the equivalent of not realising you’re supposed to tie your shoelaces before you play basketball.

    4. AF*

      Have you spoken to UselessGirl about this? If so, it doesn’t appear that it worked. It’s not throwing her under the bus to constructively discuss your legitimate concern with her (and if that gets you nowhere, then discuss the boss). You could do it in a debrief session. You appear to have clear evidence of what happened. Don’t damage your own career because of this person!

      1. Jules the First*

        Oh we’ve debriefed it. When we sat down on Monday, I told her that everyone makes mistakes, but that this is not an ok mistake to make and if she does something similar again, I will insist that she handles the fallout herself instead of relying on me. This would be a pretty big mistake for someone at coordinator level; from a lead (which is her job title, though not her skill set) it is verging on career-ending. I’m just reluctant to pull that trigger, because it took the COO a year to hire her and he will be equally slow to replace her, and she’s a single mom.

        1. NACSAJACK*

          I would have put her first and yourself in the background. It’s call support and adulting. She needs to adult up and admit she cost the company a multi-million pound mistake.

        2. Observer*

          At this point, I don’t think you have much choice. You’ve given her her the heads up she needs. I hope she takes it seriously.

    5. Artemesia*

      You didn’t do the mature thing here. The mature thing was to say ‘we need to get rid of useless girl, this is just the last in a string of disasters that is hurting the company.’ Why do you think it is appropriate to shield a serial f&*kup from her bad work?

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hmmm, if I were the CEO I’d consider the mature thing being direct and saying “we have a pattern of errors here and she’s been resistant to feedback, and someone needs to intervene.” The CEO wants to know what’s actually going on. Don’t hide information from her.

      1. Jules the First*

        I’m not hiding…HR knows I have problems with the quality of her work, the CEO has problems with the quality of her work, and several of the senior staff we support have problems with the quality of her work. The problem is that power to fire her rests with the COO, who isn’t listening (and as we’re still in limbo after the unexpected death of my grand-boss in March, there’s no one with the power to tie-break when the CEO and COO disagree).

        At this point I’m concerned that I’ve raised complaints about her work (and the errors are so fundamental) so many times that it starts to reflect poorly on me – that people will think I have it in for her, or that I’m high-maintenance, or that I’m incapable of coaching a peer. Am I overthinking this?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes. It’s not your job to coach a peer. You don’t need to couch it as complaining — just matter-of-fact explanation of the facts, in a tone of concern.

  86. legalchef*

    So…. I’m pregnant! It’s early days – I’m about 5 weeks.

    Does anyone have tips for job hunting while pregnant? I have an interview in a couple weeks (for the job with the massive application I posted about last week).

    I also need to figure out if I should even keep searching. I don’t want to have a maternity leave issue. I’ve also been thinking about going down to 80% time after coming back from leave (any lower and I will lose my health insurance). But I guess I can always wait and see what the policies are at anywhere that might make me an offer, no? Or is that poor form?

    1. Nanc*

      Hmm, well, if you’re the right candidate for me, your pregnancy would not be a deal breaker but I might do something like hire a temp in the role or start you part time and have you come on full time after your maternity leave. Our office isn’t one where telecommuting would work during the training period but if we could get you on board and trained before your maternity leave, telecommuting part time would definitely be a possibility.

      That said, keep in mind job searches can take a long time. If you’re in a position to stretch it out and take your time, it might be worth being picky about where you apply.

    2. Graciosa*

      I don’t think it’s poor form, but it may be risky in the sense of giving up leave benefits you might have at your current job.

      FMLA doesn’t kick in until after a year, so you don’t have even that if you change jobs now. Policies are frequently written to kick in after the FMLA threshold is met, even if the leave offered is paid rather than unpaid. Short-term disability may help instead under a new employer, so that might be worth checking.

      If your risk question was about whether you could get hired with a pending pregnancy, the answer at my employer is absolutely. I see it all the time.

      1. legalchef*

        Losing my benefits is a big concern. At one place I interviewed, you are entitled to paid leave basically immediately per their policy, but I know that isn’t the norm.

        1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

          Congratulations! You can always negotiate an unpaid leave at the time of offer.

          1. legalchef*

            Oh, good point! Do you know if I would be able to get COBRA during that time? My husband is self-employed, so we don’t have his insurance to fall back on.

            And thanks :)

            1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

              INAL but I think that’s how COBRA’s supposed to work, for a little while at least… usually new benefits kick in after a 90-day probationary period so you can buy COBRA to keep your old employer’s insurance during that time to fill in the gap.

  87. Lemon Meringue*

    Sorry if this is too specific, but anyone have a sense of how difficult it is to be hired as an attorney for the federal government? I’d definitely be open to many types of agencies (really almost anything except defense/military). I’m hoping to eventually wind up doing more rulemaking/policy-oriented work, though I’d be fine with starting out in a different area. I’m fortunate to have credentials that are generally viewed favorably in the legal market (top law school, federal clerkship) and I also have an extensive public service background, which I hear they often want to see. But I’m a little spooked by job postings on USAJobs that say they’ll close in a week-ish or whenever they get 400 (!) applications, and I’ve seen complaints about terrible HR screening…

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I Am Not A Llama (and other agencies may differ), but I have a fed job in policy/regs. It was pretty hard to get the job– first you have to be basically at the top of the certification list (where they score your bubble test application from USA Jobs)– this is purely mathematical, so just keep in mind that the nuance of your law school might not matter as much in this stage as if you have the exact experience they want.

      Then, if you make that, you get to do a more normal job process like interview.

      That said, definitely make up your resume in the USA Jobs format and using their language as much as possible– it’s going to look nothing like a normal, concise resume! Also, since you had a federal clerkship, be more specific than you might be normally– there will likely be questions about whether you’ve done very specific tasks, like write letters to Congress. If you can add that experience and check the ‘yes’ box, it’ll give you more points and boost you up the list.

      Sorry about the longish post here, and good luck!

    2. Pwyll*

      Nonny is absolutely right, getting through to the interview stage is basically a numbers game. You need to check as many of the boxes as possible to get through to being reviewed by a real person.

      For the applications that have mini-questionnaires, make sure you’re being very specific about what experience you have and where you have it. For example, many of the applications say something like, “State with specificity your experience interpreting the Law Act” and you’ll want to fill that in with “As a Law Clerk at Agency in 2010 I drafted x memos on the Law Act and gave verbal briefings to our Director on the Law Act in relation to y case and x regulation.” THEN, make absolutely sure that this information is on your USA Jobs resume, as if it’s not cross-referenced you might be disqualified.

      I hate my USAJobs resume, but it really is more of a C.V. (a listing of your entire career) rather than a resume (a marketing document of your career highlights).

      1. Pwyll*

        (Of course, make sure anything you put in the questionnaire isn’t breaking confidentiality, too.)

    3. BRR*

      I’d say difficult but I have no insider knowledge. It’s hard to get federal government jobs in general and there are a lot of lawyers out there. It sounds like you’re really qualified but the competition is so vast it can be difficult to make it to the interview stage.

    4. Infinity*

      Nonny and Pwyll are spot on about getting through the initial process being a numbers game. At my agency, the person reviewing the USAJobs part has no legal background. I had interned here and knew this. So I didn’t use any language/vocab that was not in the post. If the job requirement was “experience writing a brief” I wrote “have experience in writing a brief” and then expounded in a way an attorney later reviewing would understand/be impressed by. I did this even though it made everything look and sound awful. If you’re able to network with any Fed attorneys, that’s also a good bet. There are so many applicants for jobs, that people do get lost. We noticed HR had screened out over half our applicants for a listing simply because we were all looking for someone who had previously worked here, who was more than qualified. Going to HR we realized they didn’t score people who were using different words than what was in the posting–I kid you not. It wasn’t nefarious…it was just “not getting it.” I think it was as simple as the listing requiring applicants to “be in good standing with the [state] bar.” And some of the applicants used registered, authorized, etc.

      1. Pwyll*

        Ugh, this happened to a friend of mine. He didn’t get the job, and when his internship supervisor investigated, he discovered it was because the question was “Are you a member in good standing with the bar of any state . . .” and he answered “Member of the Bar of State”, so they had indicated that he did not disclose he was in good standing. Sigh.

    5. Lemon Meringue*

      Wow, that’s a crazy process… but very good to know. Thanks for the advice everyone!

  88. straws*

    If I’m submitting my resume for multiple, similar jobs at 1 company, should I be changing my cover letter in any way? Since the job duties are so similar, I’m having a hard time thinking of how to “customize” it. My current situation is similar jobs in different departments, so it’s unlikely that the same people will be seeing it. I’d be curious to know if the answer would change if it were the same department though.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Yeah, you definitely need to change up the cover letter. See if you can express more about why you’d like to work for that specific department if you can.
      Also, don’t assume that different people will see it, often an HR person screens resumes before sending them on to appropriate hiring managers so it’s possible the same person will see all the resumes that come in.

    2. CMT*

      If the positions you’re applying to are like, Chocolate Teapots Analyst and Dark Chocolate Teapots Analyst, I can see how it would be hard to customize the cover letter. I’d probably just change the job title in each of them. (I usually write the position I’m applying for in the first line or paragraph.)

    3. BRR*

      Try to change what you can. Also be careful of applying to too many jobs at the same place, even if it’s a large company.

    4. straws*

      Thanks, I’ll give it a look over and see what I can do. I’ve only applied to 1 job there and the other job I’m looking at is similar to how CMT described – same exact job, just a different department. It’s a state university, so it’s huge, and the departments are in the same college and very similar.

  89. Dweali*

    It’s self eval time and for one of my goals I would like to develop leadership/management skills; I’ve got an area where I can put notes so far I have *Communication–making sure it’s clear, concise, straight forward, considerate, tactful and *Attitude–staying positive, encouraging/friendly

    But aside from these (which I know aren’t the most concrete/measurable) I can’t think of anything else that I can start working on to develop good skills especially since I’m not in a leadership type position

    1. Jillociraptor*

      What about setting vision, and influencing and motivating others? Those are some of the most important skills of any manager: making it clear why the department’s work matters, and organizing the staff to do it well.

      I also always add in goals about understanding the broader context of my work: making connections with other related departments, committing to research in an area of our work that I’m not as knowledgeable about, attending organization-wide forums, things like that. This has been crucial to my growth as a leader.

  90. ShipLeigh*

    A few months ago, I worked a table at a job fair to hire entry-level CSRs and sales reps. This guy came up to the table asking about a sales job, insisting on meeting with a sales manager, saying he had something that would interest them. I thought this was a cornball line until I saw what he handed me in addition to his resume: a page with all sorts of figures on it with the logo of our biggest competitor in the region splashed all over it.

    I thought he and the situation was weird, so I gave him the brush off and didn’t think much of it until I told this story to some old friends. Most of them said to call the cops that this guy was trying to sell stolen documents. One friend was the voice of dissent, saying I should have set him up with the manager to see if what he was offering was legit and could help sales. That doesn’t seem right either but I’ve never worked in sales and don’t know if this is common.

    What do you think?

    1. Dawn*

      “… a page with all sorts of figures on it with the logo of our biggest competitor in the region splashed all over it.”

      I woulda noped right outta there too! That’s the kind of thing that could land your company in the middle of a contract breach lawsuit if it turned out that the guy was, in fact, stealing company secrets and then going to a competitor with them.

    2. Pwyll*

      Think of it this way: if he’s willing to steal competitor’s information and bring it to you, he’ll almost certainly be willing to give your information to competitor 2. NOPE NOPE NOPE.

      Also, the company could get sued for it. Corporate Espionage is no joke. But I wouldn’t call the police, I’m not really sure what they would do.

    3. Girasol*

      Did you happen to notice “Internal use only” or “Company confidential” at the bottom of the sheet? Your legal department may want to know if you even glanced over such data from a competitor, even though you didn’t act on it.

  91. Looking to move to HR/Recruiting*

    Happy Friday!

    I’m looking to move on from my admin job, and I have interest in moving into HR/Recruiting. I have some experience with hiring for the company (it’s a small company, so not a lot of turnover or new positions, though I’ve been fully involved in nearly every hire since I started here), and I do some general HR work (onboarding mostly, but some personnel issues/insurance/policies and all that boring administrative stuff). It’s probably the part of my job I enjoy the most; sadly it’s also probably the least amount I do, which is why I’m looking to make that transition.

    My question is, what skills should I focus on in my cover letter that are good transfers into an HR/recruiter type position? Any general advice on other skills I can bone up on while I’m on the hunt? Anything I should know about the HR/recruiting world that would benefit me to know now?

    1. JOTeepe*

      If there is a chapter nearby, check out your local SHRM-affiliate group, and sign up to attend a meeting. (Especially if it is in the recruiting area!) You’ll get a chance to meet other HR professionals, which will help you get a feel for what the market for this type of work is in your area and how best to focus it.

      If you are especially interested in that field, you may want to focus on working for a temp agency or local recruiting firm as opposed to as an in-house recruiter. Large employers tend to want people with a lot of recruiting experience in these roles, and small employers don’t have enough work for a full time, dedicated recruiter, so they either outsource it to these firms OR it’s handled by generalists. Recruiting firms and temp agencies, on the other hand, are far more likely to hire someone with little/no experience in the field but who is excited about the work.

      Also, many of the local SHRM affiliates have job boards as well. (Mine does, for example.) This might be a good place to start for your job search.

    2. Pwyll*

      Take a look at some of the resources for the PHR exam as well. While you likely aren’t ready to sit for the exam (you have to be primarily in an HR role for a certain numbers of years), I’ve found a lot of the material to be really fascinating.

      2. straws*

        I’m in a similar position to OP here, and I love viewing sample questions for the PHR exam. It’s fascinating to see how much HR covers, and I learn so much!

  92. Nethwen*

    Does anyone remember a somewhat recent discussion here on what to do when you might be late for work a few days a week because of a medical condition? I’m trying to forward the column to someone, but am having trouble tracking it down. Thanks!

    1. The lazy b (with spaces today for no particular reason)*

      I do remember it but can’t find it either. Alison is there any chance you could add a ‘health and sickness’ category??

  93. BenAdminGeek*

    Hey folks! I’ve been in my current job for a little over a year, but I’ve been in this industry for about 13 years now. I’m working remotely for the first time, and that’s been pretty great overall. However, the past two weeks I’ve gotten into a rut of only getting about 50% of my “normal” output accomplished.

    Question for others- how do you break out of these ruts? I’m coming into the busy season, and need to get crackin’, but having trouble motivating myself to push through and complete projects, both internal and client-facing.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Pomodoro method! It saved my life when I got into unproductive ruts working remotely.

      1. BenAdminGeek*

        Thank you, going to try it! We’ll see how it goes. Also assigning myself work on Saturday as “incentive” to get stuff done. It feels like one or two days of good work would get me back in the groove, and this Pomodoro method might give me the structure to get it done.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’m someone who doesn’t do well with Pomodoro, but here’s what I do instead — I set mini-goals throughout the day. While I was in a major depression slump, the thought of sitting down for 8 hours and cranking out X pieces of work was just way too daunting, so instead I set myself hourly goals. Instead of “Finish 40 items in 8 hours,” I would say, “Okay self, let’s see if you can do these two really big items in an hour, then maybe six of the smaller ones in the next hour.” The small, immediate deadlines (that were entirely self-imposed and had no weight riding on them) helped me take things a lot quicker.

  94. Thecla*

    I have worked in an office for 3 years and I love it. I get on great with all the staff and multiple team leaders, and have built a great rapport with the regular clients. Occasionally if a team leader is busy elsewhere in the building, they will leave someone in charge of the office, most of the time they just go and whoever has been there the longest just takes the main desk (so that can answer the team leaders phone etc). So a new member of staff started who is about twice my age (not that I personally think that makes any difference). We get on well and have had no problems apart from this: twice she has arrived to work as the team leader has left the room to go to a meeting or whatever, and the new girl has automatically just sat at the main desk meaning I have to ask her to put calls through to other departments and basically she is monitoring my work. Now I’m due to become a team leader in a few months when one leaves for maternity so I have been trained on procedures and how to lock the system at the end of business.

    I have never had an issue talking to people about issues and have been a manager myself in retail, customer service and hospitality, however because this woman gets very defensive and tries to counter everything you say if she wants to stand her ground, I am finding this very difficult. Firstly am I being childish that when there are just the two of us in the office, I should be the one in charge because of the hierarchy that I have experienced here? (especially as she still doesn’t know how to do everything so often has to ask me) and second, how do you all think is the best way to approach her about it?

    I really don’t want it to come accross as rude or like I am being pathetic, but the hierarchy does exist in this office but she is the next after me in terms of length of service. Even writing this makes me feel stupid but I just can’t seem to get over it!! *sigh*

    Thanks guys

    2. zora.dee*

      Hmmm, just a thought. The next time she starts to sit there, can you just cheerfully say “Oh, Jane, I’d rather sit there while Lucinda is gone, actually. It’s a lot easier for me to answer her phone than to have to bother you with directions all day. Thanks!” Make it about the tasks that need to get done, and not about the seniority issue?

    3. TootsNYC*

      Bring it up to the other team leads, in terms of a “make the handoff more formal.” You can say that often this inexperienced person ends up sitting there, and it’s inefficient, so you should all start officially handing off (“Thecla, would you take the phones? I have to go to a meeting”).

      I use the phrase, with my team: “Stacy has the conn.”

  95. Vanishing Girl*

    I got an offer for an awesome job this week, and took it! It’s the job that contacted me three weeks ago to see if I was interested, since they liked me so much at the interview for a different position last year. I think following Alison’s advice was integral to this whole process! So thank you, Alison, and thanks to the awesome commentariat here.

    My little bit of advice: even if you don’t get the job you want, keep a brave face and treat the interviewers well. Don’t burn that bridge, because you never know when they might walk across it again!

  96. SL #2*

    It’s annual review time! I had my 3-month review last year around this same time, so this is my first “real” annual review.

    I plan on negotiating for a raise, but I’m having trouble figuring out how much is “the right amount” to ask for. I’m pretty sure I have a clear case for the contributions I’ve made that would merit a raise, so that’s not bothering me too much. But I just don’t know what is a typical amount to ask for? I’m thinking a little under 10% to bring me to the median salary in my area for a role like this, but is that an abnormally high percentage?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I feel like I’m the “Your raise request is too high” fairy today. :(

      10% isn’t out of the range of possibility, but it’s very high (in my experience). I got a few 10% raises very early in my career, in a role in which the hiring manager had been explicit that they knew it was underpaid and they would correct the salary as possible (over my 4 years of working there, I ended up with a total raise of over 50%).

      Other than that, the highest raise I’ve seen available (not just my own raises, but the total possible according to the rules of the organizations I’ve worked for) was 7%. The 7% raise was reserved for extraordinary performers; I didn’t get it (I believe 1 person out of an 80 person organization did). I’ve been lucky and have mostly gotten raises between 3% and 5%; I know lots of others who see raises smaller than that (or none at all).

    2. Graciosa*

      It doesn’t sound like you have a lot more experience at this job than 15 months total (not just at this employer), so you may need to think a bit about what median really means.

      Median salaries are useful for figuring out where you stand, but 15 months of experience is not typically the level at the median – that usually requires a *lot* more time. The median is calculated using *all* the salaries of that position, from the most experienced master who has many, many years (decades) to the newest person who just started today.

      Median salaries in my field tend to be held by fairly experienced people (not the most experienced, obviously, but generally more like 5-8 years in role). Your field may differ, but that’s what you need to know to help assess this. Someone asking for median salary with only the experience you’ve listed would seem fairly out of touch in my industry, but as I said, your field may vary.

      Regarding your percentage question, you would have to have pretty significant contributions (especially for just 15 months) to merit a 10% raise at my very large employer.

      My budget is usually around 2.5% lately (not sure where it will come in this year), and really outstanding performers make it into the 3.X% or possibly 4% range. In order to compensate them well, of course, I have to reduce the raises I give to lower performers – which I do – but my budget is what it is.

      A 10% raise in 15 months would have to have some *amazing* accomplishments to support it, far beyond what people typically achieve in the first year. If you’ve been learning your job and have succeeded within the normal range for your role, that probably wouldn’t justify that kind of a raise.

      I don’t want to presume too much about your employer, but I will also add that you would have better luck negotiating with smaller companies. At my large employer, we go through a process to make sure that similar performance gets the same results under every manager, and the results are set that way. By the time we’re having the performance review, I am *informing* my team members what raise they will be receiving rather than negotiating it during the meeting.

      If you’re working at a larger employer like mine, the key to maximizing your raises is first, having truly amazing accomplishments that far outshine your peers, and second, by providing the information to support that long before the review meeting.

      If you are able to negotiate during the meeting, I wouldn’t worry too much about overreaching in your requests at an early stage in your career. If you worked for me, I wouldn’t be offended or upset, I’d just explain things to you.

      Good luck.

      1. SL #2*

        Just a couple of quick answers: My employer is extremely small and extremely well-funded, so I have flexibility to negotiate there. I also report directly to the ED.

        I did think 10% was on the high range (I’ve been reading AAM long enough to know that!) and didn’t plan on aiming for it, but I couldn’t pinpoint how far off the mark it really was, or whether it was at all. Yours and Victoria’s responses are basically what I was hoping for: a right-setting of expectations + some examples.

        1. Mreasy*

          For the other side of the coin, I’ve gotten 10% raises after a year at multiple positions, specifically at smaller employers where they had the ability to be flexible for excellent performers.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            I got a 10% raise after a year of official work at my current company (I started as a trainee doing unofficial work across divisions), but that was tied to a promotion and the 10% bump was to get me up to the low end of the pay band for the new job grade (I went up two grades). Outside of a promotion, I’ve rarely heard of companies large or small giving someone that big a raise, but it never hurts to ask either. The worst they can do is say no.

  97. anon anon anon*

    a couple weeks ago i posted that the sanitary napkin disposal bins in every single stall in all of the women’s bathrooms in our building were removed because our office manager didn’t like the smell of the bins. i have updates!

    things have gotten crazy since then! a ton of the women in the building were unhappy with this change. multiple people complained to the office manager and asked for them to come back, but she refused. i went to the director of our unit to tell him about the situation and express concern that we were in violation of the building code, and that there was a very real possibility our building may experience flooding in the bathrooms because of this.

    in the mean time, multiple people talked to our risk management department about the issue. because of that, an investigation was launched and we were told that the bins had to come back. of course, the office manager didn’t like this and she doubled down on the fact that she is “right” and everyone else is mean, toxic, and bullies. she’s now on a witchhunt to find out who went to risk management and our director. she feels betrayed by her coworkers, and she can’t imagine why someone would go to the director instead of talking to her.

    there’s now been signs posted in all of the bathrooms saying that the bins were removed due to safety issues, because this type of waste is a bio-hazard and it is safer for everyone if it isn’t touched. of course, now people are unhappy because the signs are stigmatizing women and there’s been a lot of discussion around how people feel they’re being singled out because of their gender. there are also signs advising people to use the accessible bathrooms if they wish to have privacy when throwing out used sanitary napkins and tampons.

    so.. i have no idea. i assume we are getting the bins back, but i imagine there will be a lot of drama swirling before it happens. happy friday!

    1. Leatherwings*

      That’s bananas. Bathrooms typically don’t smell rosy, and of course it could cause plumbing problems! Tampons aren’t toxic, and they exist anyways! What are people supposed to do with them otherwise, I assume just put them in the trash? Then is the trash now toxic? Insane.

      Good luck getting your office back to normal because that’s completely crazy.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yeah, I think if the bins are sitting in there so long that they become smelly, then that means the janitorial staff should come more often to empty them. I think it is really overstepping to put up biohazard signs.

        1. anon anon anon*

          One of the reasons for removing the bins was that it would lessen the amount of work the cleaning staff had to do.

          I wish I could post the signs that were posted without outing myself – they are passive aggressive to a level I can’t even comprehend.

          1. Sadsack*

            Wait, I thought they were removed because they smell. Good luck with this situation. Someone needs to straighten out the office manager.

            1. anon anon anon*

              I didn’t want to make the post too long – there was 3 reasons they were removed that said in the original post. The smell was her biggest factor in removing them.

          3. Dynamic Beige*

            Lessen the amount of work the cleaning staff have to do? Why not have one central garbage bin that everyone has to pitch everything into then? Why not have employees bring in their own vacuum cleaners, cleaning products etc. and clean everything themselves?

            This woman has a screw loose.

            You need to get a photo or scan of these signs, for posterity. I just can’t even.

            1. anon anon anon*

              Oh – the cleaners don’t vacuum our offices. When I want my office vacuumed I have to borrow one from someone who bought for staff to use and do it myself.

    2. Dynamic Beige*

      there’s now been signs posted in all of the bathrooms saying that the bins were removed due to safety issues, because this type of waste is a bio-hazard and it is safer for everyone if it isn’t touched.

      Uh… yeah. And that’s why there are special-purpose bins to collect this particular kind of waste — so that the person/people tasked with removing it can take special precautions. Kind of like when bathrooms have needle bins, so that people put them in there instead of with all the other general purpose waste like paper towels. No one wants to get stuck with someone else’s needle when they’re removing a garbage bag, that’s why they collect them in separate bins.

      SMH

    3. C Average*

      Wow, that’s crazypants. If it’s a biohazard, that’s all the more reason it shouldn’t just be chucked in the trash with everything else–if it were really a health threat, every ladies’ room would need an actual biohazard disposal container, which . . . obviously isn’t the case.

    4. AF*

      Does your office manager have a sensitive sense of smell? Do these bins have lids? I’m sorry I missed the initial post – I’ve never come across a situation where this was an issue in my entire life (that the smell was too strong), so I don’t know why she would be so concerned about it. I can’t help but wonder whether there’s another reason for her (apparent) overreaction that she isn’t explaining. And telling people they’re bullies for wanting something that exists in most women’s bathrooms is not reasonable.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      This is nuts. The fact that a woman proposed this scheme is really sad. I mean, she should get how this normally works. The bins have a purpose!

      Meanwhile, Junior High me is coming up with some gross ways to get back at the office manager. . .

    7. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      The fact that a woman is the driving force behind this is blowing my mind. Is she like 10? Has she just never ever in her life menstruated?

    9. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      Ha! Well obviously she is a vampire and the smell of blood is driving her crazy with thirst.

      1. C Average*

        Ha! I wonder if vampires, as a minority, are a protected class. Or if vampirism-related odor sensitivity is covered under the ADA. Someone with a background in undead employment law may need to weigh in.

    10. Liane*

      Uh, they are going to smell if they are in the regular trash bins. Heck, as someone who used to work in a lab with real bio-haz bins for real bio-haz materials, I can tell you they would smell in them.
      So Office Manager clearly has other issues. I’d consider going to my boss and telling her, “Narcissa’s constant complaints about ‘meanies tattling to Risk Management’ keep me from concentrating on my job duties. Also, TPS reports have been late every day for the past 2 weeks, because Narcissa is prioritizing maintaining the new bathroom signs over proofreading those reports.”

      I agree with Sadsack, that if there’s a real smell issue, getting the trash emptied more often is the solution.

    11. Anxa*

      Okay, but …. Are custodians not trained to handle this?

      I naively applied for a lot of custodial jobs when I was unemployed. And I know I”m not the typical person interested in that sort of stuff, but you cannot tell me that there aren’t career custodial staff that would jump at the opportunity to have increased jobs responsibilities in exchange for not being contracted or having more hours.

      Or maybe they need to find custodians that are trainable to do this very common part of cleaning bathrooms.

      this whole thing seems nuts to me.

    12. LCL*

      At my job they did away with the in wall bins, because they were a pain to empty and low capacity. The facilities group decided on the solution, which was an extra freestanding bin in each stall, labeled, and with small disposal bags. Facilities likes it because it is safer and quicker for them and the users are happy.

      1. Observer*

        That actually makes sense. Wall bins are a pain, no matter what type of trash you have. Freestanding bins are much easier to deal with, and do the job just fine.

    13. zora.dee*

      WOW.

      That is amazing, I can’t believe how she’s gone off the rails on this. It’s terrible, but it’s kind of hilarious, thanks for the update!

  98. Tris Prior*

    Boyfriend’s company is merging with another, and the health insurance is changing to that of the new company. We just found out that the premiums will be going up nearly $300/month, to $700-something!! WTF? Who can pay that? We figured it out and if I stay on his insurance, his take-home pay after insurance, etc. would be $900 per month. In a major expensive city. No.

    Thank god that according to my work’s HR, this increase qualifies me to get on my work’s insurance. Thank god I now HAVE a job that offers insurance, which was not true in the past.

    They also cut his 401k match to nearly nothing. He just got a good performance review but no word on salary increase as those need to be, I dunno, blessed by the seventh son of a seventh son on a Tuesday under a full moon. But their salaries have been frozen for years so I’m not holding out any hope.

    I am really hoping this finally lights a fire under his ass to job hunt. He’s just so beaten down by this place that he honestly doesn’t believe there’s anything better out there.

    1. fposte*

      In my state they’re proposing to do that *retroactively*–like we may have to cough that up to cover the past year. (Actually, if you’re in my state, the cause may be similar.)

      2. Tris Prior*

        Whoa, I hadn’t heard that this was going on or that he’d have to do that. Are you in IL?

    2. animaniactoo*

      My husband has been uninsured while we’re working out of some debt because I’m the main breadwinner, and he’s always been relatively healthy. And because one of the places where my company sucks out loud is that you can put your spouse on your insurance, but you have to pay the *full* bill for them – the company declines to pick up the other half the way they are legally obligated to do for you.

      They do a lot of really good things – but that one isn’t one of them, and we’re now scrambling to figure out what comes next after he had a health crisis that landed him in the hospital for a month. Out of a job and still can’t even look for awhile yet while he’s in recovery mode and has taken to sleeping for great portions of the day (a good thing, he hasn’t been able to sleep for more than an hour or so at a stretch for a really long time).

      There surely is better out there, but even if there isn’t – he really won’t know until he makes a dedicated effort to find out, right?

      1. Tris Prior*

        Yeah, I suspect that this is what the new owners are doing too – declining to pay anything at all towards me as the non-employee. For just him, employee only coverage, it’s only going up 20 bucks. Clearly they want family members off the insurance.

        I’m so sorry this happened to you and your husband.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I know someone who took a new job and then lost her entire raise in the increased health-insurance premiums, bcs the new company had great rates for singles and lousy for families. And that was just adding 1 person!

      2. Liane*

        Things like this have been common for years. OldJob wouldn’t even allow part-timers, even if they usually worked 40 hours like I did, to add their spouses, although they could add kids. (Not that I could afford it, but our state has had great children’s Medicaid coverage for years.) Fortunately, Husband had care through the VA hospital and still does.

    3. Mags*

      You need to be browsing the Healthcare Marketplace if your work insurance is poor or too pricey for you. The ACA has provided a ton of good and affordable options. You aren’t stuck with what your work provides. I declined my work healthcare after a year because despite paying for it every check, it was SO pricey I couldn’t afford the insane deductible or ludicrous co-pay should I somehow reach it.

      And your case may fall under a Qualifying Life Event which would entitle you to apply for coverage now, instead of having to wait for open enrollment.

  99. K130*

    Vent: About a month ago, my team was split in half and assigned to two new (to us) managers. The day that went into effect, my new manager went on a month of FMLA. He returned this week. I sent him a copy of our monthly team stats and he asked several questions that indicate he has NO idea what we do or how we are rated. This should be fun. But it will only be for a few months because we will be merged into a whole other department as soon as management figures out how to implement that. Also super fun!
    Fingers crossed: there have been some positive signs in my interview process for a new position out of this office, this agency, and a higher grade WITH promotion potential.

    Two weeks of vacation starts in 4 ½ hours.

  100. MRI*

    I work offsite and will be WFH next week due to a surgery I am having Monday.

    My supervisor knows (he’s in another office hundreds of miles away) but I have yet to tell the supervisor here. I just…don’t want to. So bad, I know. She does not manage me or my time or approve my vacation or participate in my performance review, I just happen to use a desk here. It doesn’t help that the other remote worker (Jane) on my team who happens to sit next to me does not tell her anything either. Jane has known this woman for 40+ years in a professional and personal context (Jane’s mom is Site Sup’s BFF), so I trust her.

    Anyway, I want to send her an email but I don’t want to tell her that I’m having surgery or that I’m recovering or anything that will elicit questions. She is extremely nosy and I don’t need anyone knowing my medical business.

    “Hi Penelope, I will be working from home from (date-date). I will return (date).”

    That’s all I need right?!

    1. Sadsack*

      I say yes, you may add that your manager from afar is aware, just in case you worry that your onsite manager will be suspicious or wierd about it.

  101. Elizabeth West*

    Only sorta work related, but I had to tell you–

    I’m not at work today because Psycho Kitty passed away yesterday. I was able to catch her but not without sustaining serious bites. I then had to go to the ER and have IV antibiotics and oral ones and have to see a hand surgeon on Tuesday (gee thanks kitty, LOL! But she didn’t mean it).

    Her vet thinks her symptoms meant a heart problem and the strain was too much for her. I have donated all her things to them for use or donation. She is buried in the backyard almost under her favorite bush with all her toys.

    I emailed my boss and she was very good about it. I took today off because my hand is really useless and I probably shouldn’t even be typing this. I’m all swelled up and I could not have worked today because the pain is pretty bad and I can’t really move my right index finger. There is infection on both hands, but the left isn’t as bad. Here’s hoping I don’t need surgery to clean the bites out because that will make it really hard to work, and things are already difficult there as it is!

    I’m getting good at doing stuff with the other hand, LOL. And I am okay, except for my injury. She was 13 and it was her time, I guess. I will miss her but now she is okay.

    2. Jules the First*

      Awwww…so sorry about your kitteh!

      Keep those hands clean and rested – I had a hand surgeon for a while (horses, not kittehs were my downfall) and trust me, you do NOT want them to operate.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        No, I don’t! I can’t imagine trying to work like this. Or worse. But they had to check with the doc bcuz the worst bites are around joints.

    3. SL #2*

      Oh no… Psycho Kitty updates were some of my favorite posts/comments of yours. I’m sorry for your loss but I’m glad she passed away (hopefully) knowing that you did care for her.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        You can click my name for a blog post with pictures and the only known video of her actually playing with a toy (she usually did it when I wasn’t looking, lOL).

        I’m sure she does. I’m just glad she’s not suffering. She was really sick, apparently.

    4. Sophia Brooks*

      I am so sorry!

      Also, do you have antibiotics/have you gone to the doctor? I had several bites/scratches that were mildly infected, and by 2 days later I couldn’t walk or move my arm and I was off work for over a week!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, I went to the ER last night and got an IV antibiotic and oral antibiotic. HUGE horse pill but i am allowed to crush it. In yoghurt, I can’t even taste it. :)

    8. Merry and Bright*

      Oh, that’s so rough. So sorry to hear about Psycho Kitty. Sending internet hugs. Be kind to yourself and I hope your hand soon heals.

    9. Hibiscus*

      Sorry for the loss of Psycho Kitty. She was something, huh?

      Cat bites are actually super serious, especially to the fingers. I did a search for a hand surgeon at my hospital and learned a ton.

    10. Liane*

      Sorry about your Psycho Kitty. Hugs! I will your stories about her.

      And take care of the hands. Echoing others, hand surgery will take a long time to heal.

    16. Mimmy*

      Elizabeth –

      Just now getting to read and respond – so sorry to hear about your cat and your injuries. Sending healing hugs your way.

    17. Belle diVedremo*

      I’m so sorry. On all fronts.
      I hope that you’re seeing the benefit of the antibiotics by today, and that the infection is soon completely gone.

    19. Windchime*

      So sorry for the loss. It’s so hard when they pass away, and she must have been in some really severe pain to have bitten you so badly. Take care of your hand; I hope it doesn’t cause you too much trouble.

  102. C Average*

    I’m looking for advice on how to get unstuck/motivated when you feel stuck/unmotivated.

    It’s been an incredibly stressful year for my family. I actually quit my corporate job (which I’d frankly come to loathe anyway, for a variety of reasons) to deal with the mess at home. All of our problems were of the first-world variety, but there were honestly days when I felt like we were hogging ALL the first-world problems. Teenager with an eating disorder, house fire, kitchen remodel gone horribly awry, spouse’s ex-spouse landing in the psych ward for a week, sister with colon cancer, sister-in-law with leukemia, husband’s job possibly in jeopardy . . . seriously, it was insane.

    Everyone is alive and on the mend now, and I’m beginning to look at potential jobs again. I’m also trying to revise my novel. (In the midst of all this chaos, I managed to complete a first draft, and it’s pretty good, but the revision I’m doing is extensive enough that it’s pretty much a rewrite.)

    I’m really having trouble. I sit down to write, and wind up dicking around on the internet for half the day. I try to focus on completing a project, and my attention wanders. I really want to be productive and motivated, but I’m failing to muster the energy and focus. I don’t know if I’m depressed (which doesn’t make sense, because everything is finally getting BETTER for my family) or if I’ve just been so preoccupied with all the drama around me that I’ve forgotten how to apply myself in non-life-or-death situations, but I am just SO STUCK.

    Have any of you been here? What did you do? And in particular, are there any books you could recommend that might provide some useful and actionable advice to someone in my headspace?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      It’s been so nice to see your name around the comments section again, C Average. I’ve missed hearing your insights! And I’m sorry to hear it’s been such a hard, stressful, challenging year.

      One thing your post made me wonder is if you might actually just need a break for a little bit. Energy and focus come from all those basic things like getting enough sleep and eating enough food and having down-time for your brain to slow down a bit. Is it possible to take a few days away, just you, to really relax?

      You might also think about getting a quick screening from your GP for depression and some other physical stuff that can cause lack of concentration (hormonal stuff, vitamin deficiencies). Sometimes the adrenaline of the difficult moment (or year-long series of moments) keeps your brain buzzing enough that it’s not until you get a small reprieve that you can actually feel how frazzled your brain is.

      But also, what you’re having is a pretty normal reaction to a really tough situation. Our cognitive resources are limited; there is really only so much we can care about, worry about, focus on at one time, and you’ve had WAY more stuff than a brain can reasonably manage while still caring about things like backwards planning a work product.

      When I was coming off of several months of personal crisis, the things that helped me were: setting realistic expectations for how much I could actually do, making very short and direct lists (not “make a doctor’s appointment” but “1) find out doctor’s phone number and write it down. 2) open calendar. 3) call number. 4) make an appointment”), and making sure I was building in things I could feel successful at so that not everything was an uphill battle. I couldn’t write anything without crying, but I could cook okay, so I spent a very little amount of time writing, and a lot more time cooking. Doing ANYTHING is better than looking up at the clock every few hours to see that time has passed without you consciously experiencing any of it, so it can help to start by just picking something, anything, that you know you can do, and do it. It’s a start.

      Take care of yourself!

      1. C Average*

        Thank you!

        I feel like, honestly, I’ve kind of coddled myself for a couple of months. I spent nearly two months living with my sister while she completed her chemo and prepared for her surgery and, while it was understandably an emotionally fraught time, I had big swaths of time to be alone with my thoughts in a pleasant setting, with very few defined responsibilities. It felt a lot like a vacation. We took an international trip together, which I planned, and that was wonderful. On my way home, I hiked the Grand Canyon rim to rim, which felt kind of vision-questy in a really wonderful, spiritual way.

        I’m home now, and things are stable and pleasant and I’m physically and mentally well-rested, and it’s time for re-entry into real life post-crisis. It feels . . . different now. I think I don’t know how to start. We’ve been through this crazy time, full of all these intense emotions, and now I’m back here in my old life with the same old to-do list with a few new items. It sort of feels the way it used to feel to go back to school after summer vacation. “How did I manage to DO this? What has happened to my attention span and work ethic over the past three months? How have I forgotten so much so fast? How do I get back on this treadmill and get interested in this material again?”

        I like your idea of the very granular to-do list. I will try that out. That feels like a strategy that could really help at the moment!

        1. Jillociraptor*

          Totally hear that. You had to rewrite all of your habits and heuristics to adapt to a stressful situation, and now you have to rewrite them all again to adapt back to a more typical one. It seems like it should be just like riding a bike, but you had to build up those habits over many years to get there, so it’s okay if it takes a few months to feel like you’re back in the saddle! I think the reference to going back to school after summer vacation is totally it. Your brain’s been working in a totally different way and it just takes some time to shift gears. It’s always hard to look at something you used to be able to do easily and have a little grace for yourself that you’re not the same you as when that was true!

    2. animaniactoo*

      Exercise. Almost any kind of exercise can help clear your mind and get you focused when you get back to work.

      Also, because I’m a Procrastinator Maximus, I dedicate chunks. Housecleaning is done in 10 to 15 minute increments once an hour. Some days work is also done that way during my slow periods (heading into one right now). Paperwork at home gets filed while watching tv because I need something to take up a track of my brain.

      Lightbulb. Is it possible that you’ve gotten so used to handling multiple things at once that you’ve lost how to focus on doing one thing and only one thing? Can you do something to take up a track of your brain? Music, or background tv? I know my godmother went to a bar near her house when she was working on her dissertation and would sit at a table just for the background noise while she worked.

    3. Schmitt*

      Depression doesn’t have to make sense. I finally wised up to that and am in the process of having the physical stuff tested and am looking for a therapist.

      Be gentle to yourself. As my doctor said to me – you have the right to the pursuit of happiness.

    4. Belle diVedremo*

      It’s nice to see you back here!

      Sorry you’ve had such a rough year. Glad to hear that everyone is alive and on the mend. Hope home and kitchen are also sorted out.

      Humans often get through a crisis and then once there’s time/room will have the reaction. Not only makes sense but is very common. That could be depression. That could be a revamping of priorities. Or both. Or something else. I wonder if you’re internally still on alert, which is a very different kind of focus. How is your quiet? Is it easy and calm? How’s MfW? (If memory serves you’re in NWYM; I’m in NYYM.) What feeds your quiet, and your center? Is there much of that in your life now? How is your sewing and other visible-product work? Is it mostly in desk work where your mind wanders?

      Very cool that you completed a draft of your novel! I wonder if it’s hard to work on the rewrite because it became tied to the difficulties of the past year. Does it just need more time, before you can more easily return to it?

      Exercise and turning tasks into their discrete parts (like the call the doctor list, above) helps me. But really, you’ve had a huge year. Can you give yourself more time? What you’ve already done sounds good, but it doesn’t sound like it quite balances out the year you’ve had.

  103. Sarah*

    For those that are self-employed, do you use an accountant? I was able to incorporate on my own, but the tax implications of running a LLC is confusing. What type of accountant do you use? What things should I ask to be sure they can meet me needs? And finally, how much is it going to cost me as a start-up?

  104. Cruciatus*

    Just had an awkward day at work yesterday…I work at the front desk for a school at a university and a faculty member walked up to me and my coworker, told us they were resigning due to hostile work conditions due to the director and another faculty member (who had just been in the room!). But she said she liked us and were the only good things about our school. She had just come from HR then to our school to give us this message. Neither my coworker or I are the people who do things about this. While she was turning in her keys I asked my supervisor if she needed to speak with the faculty member (I assumed she might have known about this) and she said no, confused, and I said “Oh, she just told us she resigned…”. I’ve never seen my supervisor leap out of a chair faster! And the search for a new person IS something my coworker and I would have a hand in. So though she likes us, if she was waiting as long as possible to resign to screw the school over, she ended up screwing *us* over as well. Oh well. I’m trying to look at it like…one less person to deal with now!

    1. ASJ*

      There are a lot of reasons someone may wait to say they’re resigning, though if she didn’t give notice then I agree that’s not ideal. Hope your search is relatively easy/doesn’t cause too much work!

  105. Mica*

    Any advice on how to break out of a career rut? I feel trapped in a career I don’t enjoy (with low pay, to boot), but I can’t figure out a way out of it. Has anybody ever been in this position before, did it get better?

    I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Maybe because I just had my 28th birthday a few weeks ago, lol. I feel like I’m realizing I made sooooooooooo many bad career choices in my life, so far. I got a stupid degree (in a subject I loved) and over the past 6 years… sort of floated around and ended up in a career that’s just… not working out for me. The pay is really low and (believe me) raises don’t exist in this field, I’ll probably top out my earnings in about 4 years. The pay is actually laughably low, I think this is a career made for people who have a wealthy spouse or live off an inheritance.

    Anyway, I really, really, want to make a radical change and get my life together. I can’t imagine working here for that much longer. I have no idea what else to do. There aren’t any fields/careers that really interest me, but I think I’m being quite limited. I just don’t feel skilled enough to do anything. I’m too afraid to apply for other jobs, because I just don’t think I’d get hired with my skills.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Hi, Mica. I just want to commiserate with you; I have similar feelings and feel like I am in a similar situation.

    2. ASJ*

      You sound kind of like you have the opposite of imposter syndrome. One of the problems with working in a toxic environment is that you start to believe that you can’t get anywhere better; frequently, that’s just not true.

      I personally have a hard doing this, but maybe think about the things you DO enjoy doing. What parts of your job do you like? What don’t you like? Do some of those parts point to a certain career – or eliminate other careers? Could you talk to a career counselor? Peruse job ads to see if something catches your eye?

    3. Crylo Ren*

      I’m in a similar situation (also turning 28 in a few weeks, eeeeep). My degree is tangentially related to what I do. I like what I do and I like the overall culture around my specific field but I don’t love the general atmosphere of the larger field, so I’m looking to get out of it.

      Have you identified what you enjoy/are good at in your current career? Maybe that can help you identify a tangential career that you can transition into. It’s still going to take some time to transition and you’ll have to be OK with starting from the bottom again…but maybe the bottom won’t be so bad?
      In my case, I’m hoping that the “bottom” of the career I’d like to transition into will still be, at least, better than the mid-range of the career I’m currently in, hah.

    4. Aubergine Dreams*

      This sounds very, very normal for someone at 28! 28 was about the time when I started to get dissatisfied in my job as well and knew I needed a change. I don’t really have any advice, except to make a change! I’m 32 now, and in the last 4 years, I bought a house, started and finished grad school, started a serious relationship, started a new job, and am now starting another new job….lots of changes! I’m finally feeling settled again, but it’s been a few years of much needed transition for me. Good luck!

  106. Jen*

    Hi everyone!

    First time poster, long time reader! I just started a full-time temporary position that will end in early November. I’ve been unemployed for about five months and I was so excited to be offered a job that when I got the offer I forgot to ask if it would be possible to have one day off in August for a volunteer commitment. It’s a one day commitment I’ve done for the last several years and I would be really upset if I couldn’t go. However, I’d rather have a job. Should I ask to take that day off and offer to make up the hours or just not ask for fear of looking bad to my boss? Any suggestions? Thanks so much!

    1. JOTeepe*

      I would phrase it exactly as you did here – that it is totally fine if the answer is no, but if it is at all possible you would like to continue to honor your commitment. Unless there is a coverage issue, most bosses won’t take issue with you wanting to honor a previous commitment. The worst that is likely to happen is that they will say no. Be prepared to potentially take it unpaid, however – that may be out of his/her control, depending on the leave policies surrounding your employment.

  107. Katniss*

    Question for you fine people:

    Let’s say a coworker accidentally forwards you an email talking crap about you. They immediately say “please disregard this”, but offer no apology. This is not someone you have to interact closely with, but they are a team member. You aren’t actually upset, just kind of irked. The crap they are talking is wrong anyway.

    Keep it to yourself, or is there something to be said for alerting your manager anyway, just so they know this kind of thing is going on at all?

    1. Meeeeeeeee*

      If it’s just a one time thing I would probably be super annoyed but not share with my manager. If it is a pattern, do share it. In case this is a one time thing turning into a pattern, document and save the email.

      1. Katniss*

        That is kind of what I figured. I am going to save it just in case. What’s really annoying was that the crap talking was in response to her not doing her job. Oh well! Can’t win ’em all, I guess.

    2. Graciosa*

      There’s no point in informing your manager that people gossip, or say mean things about other people.

      Not only does the manager already know this, but it sounds way too much like a playground complaint.

      Adults address things directly with the person involved before doing anything else. I suggest you try that, or decide to let it go.

      If you have already tried addressing it directly, *and* it has a real business impact (“When Chris tells the client that I’m incompetent and should never be listened to, I have difficulty getting them to follow my instructions troubleshooting the system failure”) then you can pull in the boss.

      1. Katniss*

        Good point. I’m not going to bother to address it directly, because it’s not worth it. It’s a silly complaint, so I’m treating it like a child trying to punch me or a small puppy trying to seriously injure me.

        1. Graciosa*

          I love the idea of thinking of the nasty coworker as a small puppy!

          Not at all worth worrying about, just not yet fully trained or bright enough to figure out that this is a bad idea –

          :-)

  108. Stargaryen*

    I’m struggling mentally in my current role and could use some advice from the commentariat. I’ve been in my role for about 3 months. It’s a new role in a new company and the role was created specifically for someone with my skills, so there’s no precedent for anything.

    I guess my concerns are two-fold:

    1) I worry I’m not really getting the feedback I need to determine if I’m really doing a good job and really supporting the company. For now, I report directly to a Senior Director who oversees our entire marketing team. She is as supportive as she can be, but she has so many competing priorities that it’s difficult to get any time with her for a 1:1 or to get any specific feedback from her beyond “you’re doing a great job with everything!”. Every time my boss has to reschedule a meeting with me, I worry that it’s just another sign that I’m not fighting as hard as I should for the channel I manage. I am trying to just take her at her word that I’m doing fine, but I would appreciate any tips about alleviating my worries.

    2) From a personal standpoint I just feel like an island. There are some days where I literally don’t speak to anyone about the work I’m doing. I sit next to our social media team (open plan office) and it seems like they’re constantly bouncing ideas off of each other, helping each other work through issues, or celebrating wins. I have no one to do that with. I try not get too sad about it, but the truth is, I’m super lonely. :(

    1. Meeeeeeeee*

      I had similar issues in my previous job. I found it did get better – 3 months is nothing in terms of finding ‘work friends’, especially when you don’t have a team. But even after a year I still missed having a team to bounce ideas off of.
      Try not to take your boss rescheduling meetings personally unless there is other evidence that you are not getting the support you need (or unless other people comment about how great it is that this manager never ever ever reschedules meetings, i.e. if you are clearly the exception).
      Is your channel similar enough to social media that you could start participating in their conversations?

      1. Stargaryen*

        It’s funny because this company is very insular in general so the “work friends” situation is almost TOO good, if that makes sense – lunches and book clubs and happy hours, oh my! – but I still don’t have anyone here I can really talk to about my work. I’ve mostly been relying on outside resources like LinkedIn groups or blogs if I’m facing a general issue, which I then have to try to apply to my own situation.

        Which is another issue in itself: because I’m so isolated, I also feel like I’m missing a lot of context about other goings-on in the company that could greatly affect my work. The Social team has been an unexpected resource in this aspect because they’re on the front lines of the company, but there are still enough differences between our channels that it’s difficult to find deeper common ground beyond “oh, that problem with ____ customer sucks”.

    2. ASJ*

      Do you ever actually get to have those meetings with your boss, or does she just forever reschedule them? If it’s the latter, you might let her know that you need time with her. If she thinks that you’re doing great and you never say anything about missing the meetings, she’s never going to realize that you actually do need them.

      1. Stargaryen*

        Yes, I do, but by the time we get to those meetings they’ve been moved forward so many times that I end up having a lot more to discuss than originally planned, which means having to discuss at a very high level in order to be respectful of her time.

        Even when I ask for specifics, I still tend to get vague answers, so I’m trying to chalk it up to her personal managing style and just handle things on my own when I can.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I’d try starting off the next meeting with saying something like this:

          “I’d like to try and address a pattern that I’m finding frustrating and I suspect may not be working for you either. When our meetings get rescheduled several times, I end up coming to you with a lot more stuff than I was initially planning to, so what might have been 5 to 10 minutes ends up being a lot longer, and I feel that it’s not as productive or focused a conversation. Would it also work for you to have shorter meetings that happen more frequently? Can we try and work on doing that?”

          Also – is it possible to indicate to her at the time that she requests a reschedule that you only need 5 minutes, but you need them sooner than later in order to address an issue quickly?

          1. Stargaryen*

            I’ll try this wording. I’ve been trying to communicate this exact thing to her off and on, but I’m still very unsure of myself and haven’t been as consistent as I should be. Thank you!

    3. Graciosa*

      Every time your boss reschedules a meeting with you, I would assume it’s because she’s not worried about your performance.

      Think about it – if she just heard about the Awful Thing you did and needed to address it, even if she had to reschedule with you it wouldn’t be for much later because you would be the problem she had to fix. Obviously, you aren’t.

      I’m not sure what to tell you about your second item. If your boss is a busy senior director, she will not be able to fill the role of someone to regularly bounce ideas off of for you. It just isn’t going to happen. Do you really need the work discussion, or is more social loneliness rather than business loneliness?

      You might be able to find ways to build relationships a bit more by offering to help out in some way (is there a project that would involve or could impact others that you could propose?) or asking for help or information from others in the office (not huge, time consuming requests, but small stuff). Is there anything on your boss’ plate that she could delegate to you that would help you build connections to other departments (for example, our site emergency teams can be good this way)? That could serve a dual purpose of freeing up some of your boss’ time (don’t assume you’ll get it, though, but she’ll appreciate it) and letting you work with other functions.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this, and I hope it improves.

      1. Stargaryen*

        Huh, I never thought of it that way (Given a choice, I tend to gravitate to the worst possible scenario anyway…work in progress ;)).

        For the second issue, I’m not looking to the Sr. Director to fill that role, I guess what I’m really wishing for is a work peer. But I’m trying to focus on feeling pleased/honored with the amount of responsibility I’m being asked to take on by myself, rather than feeling lonely about the lack of support.

        FWIW, the Sr. Director has given me some projects in line with what you described, which I very much appreciate (I don’t fault her AT ALL for not being supportive! I’m actually really impressed with how much attention she can give me, when she’s managing 20+ other colleagues at many different levels).

    4. BRR*

      I’m in a very similar situation. I have asked multiple times if there’s anything my boss would like me to work on.

      Beyond that I feel the exact same as you 10 months in. I only just came to the conclusion about #2 though. These are both reasons I’m not a fan of my job at the moment.

    5. Sophie*

      In response to point 2 – I have gone through the exact same issue!

      Yes, it does get lonely – I’m the only person doing any technical work, such as analytics, stock systems, digital marketing, website maintenance ect. I do have a co-worker that works 2-3 hours per day in the office in a completely different role which is non technical, however I managed to get her up to speed on the *concepts* of my work so I could start bouncing ideas off her too, even though she knows nothing specifically about the work. Those three hours that she is in the office are my most productive now!

      What I did was ask questions to her based on my work in ‘real world examples’. I work on the website from time to time, so I would ask her questions about what her preferences were when trying to do X task online, asked her what website she feels have great usability, ect. and explain why I was asking. For example “Hey Lucy – I’m just about to change some of the navigation on our website – what websites do you find are super easy to find what you’re looking for?”

      I would also give interesting facts about the things I was working on: “Hey Lucy, I’m just changing the wording on x thing at the moment – did you know people are more receptive to phrases like y and z because of how we’re wired?”

      Even though it doesn’t help me with the technical side of things, it opens up a dialogue about what work I am actually doing – and I got questions about it in return. This way, she knows more about the type of work I do and can even come to me with things other departments have been talking about and started asking if I can help with it.

      I would try to engage with the Social Media team around you – just start asking questions about their work! In a morning ask what they’re working on today. If they’re congratulating themselves on a win, ask about what made that specific campaign work so well. Ask about what parts of their work they find are most interesting. Then start adding stuff onto the end of these questions about your work – so “Wow, that sounds like interesting work for the day – I’ll just be working on a spreadsheet all day!” then start expanding on your answers over the weeks / months. “I’m working on spreadsheets again, but actually this tells me lots about what results x task is getting – the information is interesting at least!”

      Everyone loves being asked questions that they can answer, and I think our curiosity drives us to ask questions back, it’s all about opening the dialogue! It took a while, maybe about 4-8 months to get a fully formed back and forth and it may take some time out of your schedule in the short term, but it’s a good payoff for the increase in productivity in the long run.

      I found that even if the back and forth is not related directly to the technical side of the task, thinking about stuff in ‘laymans’ terms as it were and even just the act of telling people what I was working on made me much more likely to get that task done!

      Hopefully you’ll make some new friends and learn more about the work of a different department too! Hopefully these suggestions are at least slightly transferrable to your field of work :)

      Good luck!

  109. Meeeeeeeee*

    I could use some advice. How do you teach an intern professional norms? E.g. my intern asked if she would get paid for July 4th, I told her she might and she should check with HR, then while I was out of the office she apparently repeatedly asked my boss (who actually signs her hours) what she should do to get paid and did not check with HR (who told her no) until a week later. She also asked me if she could just book a conference room to work there by herself, I told her she should not do that because you don’t want to limit people’s access to conference rooms for actual meetings (we occasionally run out of rooms – not often, but it does happen), and she followed that up with basically asking again and then complaining she can hear the people in the break room talking and they are soooo dumb, having inane conversations (“The conversations our team has are so much better”) about the weather.

    I basically want to tell her she should just suck things up and be pleasant to and about other people, and not complain so much. But it’s tricky because people on my team (including me, I have to admit) do occasionally complain, so it’s hard to say “You are complaining too much” and then go directly into a meeting where others are complaining.

    In case it wasn’t obvious, I am a first time manager!

    1. ASJ*

      I think it’s important to give her this feedback now before she damages her reputation too much. Remember, it’s one thing for someone who has an established reputation and/or has proven themselves to complain… pretty different for someone who is new. Also, if she can hear those people talking than they can hear her, and the person she calls dumb today might be someone she needs help from tomorrow.

      It sounds like the core problem is that she’s not taking your word for it when you tell her something; she’s pushing, asking repeatedly or asking other people (!) for a different answer. That’s not good. I think your conversation needs to be focused on a) better following instructions and b) not pushing when she is given an answer.

      Also… I don’t know any company that would allow you to book a conference room just work in… especially an intern.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I think you need to be more direct with guiding her, and continue address her questions in the moment. Then if there are bigger picture concerns (i.e. complaining or ignoring requests) you can have a conversation based on that overall pattern of behavior.

      For example, for the 4th of July thing, I would’ve said “You should email Mary in HR and ask, because I’m actually not sure. You can just ask if interns get paid days off for holidays.” That way she has clear directions about what to do rather that something vague.

      For the conference room thing, the way you explained it was fine, but once she asks again you can something more direct like “We talked about why that’s not an option, and that’s pretty much always going to be the case. If you’re distracted, you can try wearing headphones/tuning it out the best you can.”

      For a bigger picture conversation you can say “I’ve noticed sometimes you [don’t follow the directions I give you, for example X and X]. Can you tell me what’s going on there?”
      And then follow up on what she says. If she has unrealistic expectations of what she should do, you can address that there, and it’s possible she might ask for clearer direction.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Oh, and for the pattern of complaining, I would explain it like this

        “I hear you complaining a lot like X time and Y time. I understand X can sometimes be frustrating, but part of being an intern means you don’t have a lot of power to do things like rent out a conference room. Even our senior managers don’t do that. I want to make it clear that complaining like that doesn’t come off well, especially when you’re at the start of your career. It can make you seem uncooperative at a time that I think you should be building your professional reputation. When I feel frustrated I sometimes take a five minute break, and I would like to start seeing you doing that or something similar. The complaining can’t keep happening. Does that make sense?”

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Heh, I had a similar conversation about using conference rooms for this type of thing with a man in his mid-50s, who has worked in professional offices for at least 30 years. To make it even more outrageous, this man has an office, but he gets claustrophobic with the door closed & can hear people with it open. Since I had to give up my office of 6 years so someone with his level of seniority (I only have 16 yrs experience) could have it, I really didn’t care to hear his complaint. Apparently he solved the problem and brought in shooting earmuffs.

      So, yeah, as far as actual advice, I have none other than to keep doing what you’re doing and be happy she hasn’t petitioned for anything yet.

      1. Meeeeeeeeeeee*

        Yikes. You’d think someone with that much experience would have this stuff figured out!

    4. LQ*

      A couple things. Is this intern a HS/College/Post College intern? I think this is important to remember if they are HS they likely need a lot more support.

      Also I think this depends on your office, but I’d absolutely expect my boss to know if I was getting paid for the 4th, my boss would not tell me to check with HR, if that needed to be checked on, he’d do that. That seems a little odd that the boss wouldn’t know. Plus, did you say “Check with HR.” Or did you say “Call Sally in HR, let her know you’re an intern and that you are pt/ft/whatever and if you will be getting holiday pay for the 4th.” If you didn’t do the second one you may want to consider giving more details and that you might not be giving enough for someone who is an intern and just learning.

      For the conversations you can tell her if headphones are acceptable that works, or recognize that there is a whole swath of people who hate them, and while over hearing is often a part of work she needs to either learn to ignore it, or that this is a learning experience for her and that when she looks for a full time job she may want to think about that as a factor in job searching and for now at this job she needs to deal with it.

      Also stop complaining! Model good behavior! Suck it up a bit and be pleasant to your intern. :)
      I know it is hard but really, managing is hard.

      1. Leatherwings*

        +1.
        You have to remember that this likely person just doesn’t have the experience to /know/ that complaining etc. isn’t acceptable, especially if other people are doing it (like in the break room conversations she overhears?). As her manager, the best thing you can do is be kind, firm and direct.

      2. Meeeeeeeeeeee*

        Very fair points.
        She is an upperclassman in college. I referred her to the specific person in HR who is in charge of the interns and who she has talked to several times before. I did recommend headphones (and showed her a white noise webpage for when she just needs sound with no distractions). But it’s fair to point out that it does suck.

        I am definitely pleasant to my intern though! I complain about the general company culture and the strained interactions with other departments… (while never calling others stupid which unfortunately I cannot say about all my colleagues which makes this really tough).

    5. Graciosa*

      You teach by (mostly) doing what you’re doing – providing information and addressing the behaviors as they arise. I say “mostly” because you’re letting some things slide that you shouldn’t. I think you need to be comfortable in your authority as well, as it seems to be holding you back.

      It would be perfectly normal to address the issues of repeated requests and forum shopping after she has already received an answer. The immediate responses should be more along the lines of “Why are you asking BigBoss when I told you to go to HR? [rhetorical – I don’t actually care] You wasted the time of everyone involved. When I tell you to check with HR, that is what I expect you to do.”

      Some other examples:

      “Why are you still asking about the conference room? I already told you the answer is no.” Followed, if necessary by, “This is not up for further discussion.”

      “Part of the requirement to be a successful working professional is to be cheerful and pleasant, and to continue to focus on getting work done even when things don’t go perfectly. When you [continue to complain because you don’t like the answer to your question / don’t show respect for your colleagues by making critical remarks about their conversations] you demonstrate that you don’t understand – or are not willing to meet – professional norms. In the future, I need you do [accept answers you don’t like with grace and move on / avoid creating a negative environment in the office].”

      I expect consistent messaging about expectations will help over time. Do not assume you have to turn this into A Thing with a big meeting that you agonize over, giving her proper time to present her case. This isn’t a formal performance improvement plan (yet), and most management is the culmination of a lot of small directions delivered every single day whenever the opportunity arises. It is not something you have to schedule formally.

      It is actually kinder to be clear and direct immediately than to save this stuff up, but you need to be comfortable enough with your own authority that this just comes out of your mouth when it happens. When you do that, it usually gets corrected much more quickly and before it gets bad.

      If you think about it, did your parents worry about correcting you the moment you did something you shouldn’t? You don’t watch your child playing with matches for a while and wonder if you should be saying something.

      The final point I would leave you with is that this intern should understand that she is the most junior person there. The idea that she is criticizing other regular employees – or mocking their intelligence – is pretty appalling. Again, you don’t have to make this A Big Thing – although this kind of is – if you make it clear immediately that it is unacceptable the instant it happens again.

      There are a lot of hard things about being a manager, but I promise that it does get easier, and you do get more comfortable with your own authority. Best wishes.

      1. LQ*

        I think that would be true, but if she is trying to find a way to build being a part of the team and the team regularly complains about others then it might seem like she’s doing the thing that fits her in. If your group complains about the IT department all the time and mocks them, then you would be hard pressed to say that the intern is appalling for doing the same or doing the same to a different group of people. So I think modeling good behavior is really important here. I think complaining is different than say leaving early when you can say that if you are an excellent employee then you can leave early. Aside from rainmakers it would be really weird to be like you have to earn your privilege of complaining.

        1. Graciosa*

          I think you made a good point about modeling, and that she may think she’s complaining to fit in (and you’re right, that should be fixed as a culture issue if true).

          I’m not so sure it would be weird to message that you have to earn your privilege of complaining because you actually do – at least in the office. There really are cultural rules associated with that.

          For example, there are some things I can’t complain about in front of my staff (lack of raises, certain policy matters I think are stupid but still have to enforce, etc.) that I am allowed to complain about to my manager (which I do). There are also absolutely people who have earned the right to complain fairly publicly (meaning in meetings) about all sorts of things which others would be frowned upon for raising as an issue.

          I can complain within my function (all levels, up, down or sideways) about certain demands placed on our function by other groups, but could not complain about it to anyone outside our group unless – here come the caveats – pushing back was either within the scope of my authority or properly sanctioned.

          This stuff can be hard to learn, and it’s probably easier to tell an intern just don’t do it – but it could be interesting to start sharing some of these unspoken rules with an intern who had mastered the basics. The one in this scenario has a ways to go yet.

          1. LQ*

            Pushing back is a big thing. If you don’t know what pushing back looks like it can look a lot like complaining and I’d say that is a really important thing to talk about. You don’t want to push back in a way that feels like complaining. And you don’t want to complain when you want to push back, but that is a huge skill to learn. Like I’d say when I “complain” about our IT department in a meeting, what I’m often doing is bringing an issue to people’s attention and that comes through in my tone. If I roll my eyes and sigh and go oh IT. That’s a complaint. If I say, “I’m concerned that X, Y, and Z haven’t been completed yet and they need to be done before we move forward” that’s raising an issue, not complaining. When I say “No one will talk to me about X” that could be a complaint or an issue depending on who I’m talking to and how I tone it. I could make that SUPER whiney or I could be very factual with a what should I do next tone.

            I’d say several things in your example wouldn’t be complaining so much as pushing back or raising an issue or other things that are appropriate. And that is incredibly important to learn some of those things.

            1. Meeeeeeeeeeee*

              Thank you both so much for your input. It’s very helpful.
              “The idea that she is criticizing other regular employees – or mocking their intelligence – is pretty appalling. ”
              Yes, this is really what pushed me to post. Unfortunately I often encounter people speaking negatively about others’ intelligence and it really bugs me.

              “I think you made a good point about modeling, and that she may think she’s complaining to fit in (and you’re right, that should be fixed as a culture issue if true).”
              Yep… this is true and should be fixed as a culture issue. But I am seeing now that she may walk away thinking that it is normal and that is doing her a disservice! When I talk to her I’ll make sure to distinguish between complaining and stating legitimate issues though!

    6. Anon Moose*

      This is a paid internship? This is not helpful to you, but her complaining about paid vacation days and not having basically her own office really rubs me the wrong way. So many people do not get paid internships. Many staff people do not have their own offices. You really should set her straight.

      1. Meeeeeeeeeeee*

        Yep, a paid internship – and well above minimum wage, too. We are in a competitive field though, so there are many paid internships.

    7. Artemesia*

      If you are here manager you should by now have sat her down and had the professional norms talk. Now you have lots of material. Think about categories and then specifically address the ones about not being a nagging PITA. A useful lesson for all of us in the workplace is that when the boss says ‘no’, you shut up about it and do your work, you don’t continue to finagle and manipulate.

      1. Meeeeeeeeeeee*

        I wish someone had had the professional norms talk with me so I would have something to model it on! But yes, you are right, I should have one of those. Thank you!

    8. The Devil's Advocate*

      You did the right thing when you referred her to HR about getting paid for the 4th. I don’t know why she didn’t do it. Maybe it was easier for her to ask your boss than actually call HR. However, having asked your boss, there was no need for her to do so more than once.

      Was the conference room still empty when she asked about it a second time? Had it been used between her first and second request? Personally, if she could just bring in her laptop and then quickly pick it up and leave the conference room were an actual meeting to take place I wouldn’t have a problem with letting her use it. If she needed to bring in a bunch of other paperwork or equipment, then no. You really didn’t make a good case for your denial of her request and didn’t provide her with substantial answers.

      You can do better.

      Open concept offices, like yours, suck. Get her some noise suppression ear plugs or let her listen to music with ear phones.

      When you tell her to just suck things up you really need to be kind of apologetic about it, especially when you and your team are hypocrites who aren’t up to the challenge of modeling the kind of behavior you’d like your intern to demonstrate. A lot of the “norms” you talk about, aren’t really all that “professional.” Having said that, they are apparently the “norms” in your office’s culture. “Unprofessional norms” perhaps? You can always tell her that after she’s paid her dues she can become a hypocrite too.

      It wasn’t obvious that you are a first time manager. I just assumed that managing interns is not your forte. It might be something that you should let someone else in your organization do.

        1. Meeeeeeeeeeee*

          I’d say it’s mostly uninformed. Many of the assumptions are wrong (we do not have an open office floor plan; headphones are explicitly allowed, etc) so there’s nothing to take personally for me here.

      2. The Devil's Advocate*

        My tone was a bit harsh, as was the word “hypocrite” and I apologize for that. Having failed to earlier specify that you did not have an open floor plan, my assumption may have been wrong, but was not unreasonable. Good to finally know about headphones being allowed.

        You’re obviously frustrated and the intern appears to need more hand-holding that you’ve been prepared to offer.

        However, in light of the omissions in your earlier comments which led to some of my assumptions, I wonder what you’ve omitted to tell your intern and just sort of assume that she knows.

        1. HR Caligula*

          That is the most non-apologetic apology I’ve read.

          Also, again unnecessarily unkind.

  110. NotASalesperson*

    More of a vent than anything, but here goes.

    I’ve had a crappy, crappy week. Breakup, relative in the hospital, all these shootings, you name it – and I’ve kept my cool at work, removed myself from my desk and group to work privately when I couldn’t keep my cool, and still handled all the people who need that document NOW, not in two hours, with reasonable poise.

    Except for one. My deskmate, who I share a cubicle with. I was going to miss the beginning of a departmental meeting due to a client issue, but I got my part of the meeting covered and all that so it wasn’t going to be a problem. Until I told her. Cue judgmental looks, cue “did you make sure to run it by [VP]?”

    I told her politely that we had it worked out. More judgmental looks and, “You really need to make sure that it’s okay.” I finally snapped at her and said, “Look, I’ve got it handled, everything is covered.” It was. The meeting went on without a hitch.

    Now she hasn’t spoken to me or looked at me in 2 days, and I’m aware that I probably should apologize but I’m not really interested in doing that since she’s giving me the silent treatment. I’m saving so much time not having to listen to her vent at me about vague things I can’t help with anyway.

    1. ASJ*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what you said, but to be honest I probably would’ve lost my temper if someone pushed me two or three times on something that was none of their business.

      You could apologize, but I would say something firm like “I apologize for how I said it, but in the future, if I intend to miss a meeting, that’s between me and [VP] and it’s really not your business.”

      1. NotASalesperson*

        It was my tone and body language that were unprofessional rather than the phrasing. I should have been more clear on that, sorry.

        Compared to all of my other work this past week, this meeting was so low on my priority list once the details got figured out, I really needed to focus on everything else I had to get done. It was just a priority for her because she was going to be attending that meeting.

        Thanks for the reply, I appreciate hearing that I’m not the only person who would have snapped in that scenario.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Actually, I don’t think you do need to apologize much here. It was a 2nd pushback on something that you had already said was handled, and she is not your superior.

          Sometimes, a bit of snapping is what it takes to make someone back off. If this is not a regular thing for you, I really wouldn’t worry about it beyond “I apologize for my tone of voice. I was very rushed on what I was trying to do, I had already given you a clear answer about it, and I didn’t know how else to make you stop pushing the issue. Is there another way that I can be clear to you in future? Something that you will accept and drop the issue if I tell you that I’ve got it covered?”

  111. synonym rolls*

    We’ll be bringing people on site for interviews very soon. I’m tired of our interview questions. What are your favorite behavioral questions to ask prospective employees?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m going to be a party pooper here, but this is not a good way to get interview questions! You want to think about this specific role and what it takes to excel in it, and then design questions based around those things. Definitely don’t take generic questions off the internet unless they directly speak to a skill/experience/quality you need in the role.

      1. Meg Murry*

        I agree with Alison that you need questions specific to the role you are hiring for, but I do think there is often a place for the more general behavioral interview questions (although you should still make sure they are relevant to your company/department/that specific role). I think googling for “behavioral interview questions” might be a valuable exercise if you took the time to then examine why some questions are or aren’t relevant for the roles you are hiring for or how you could customize them. You could also think about some of the people you have hired that have been great (and those that haven’t) and see if there are any questions you could have asked that would separate the good from the poor.

        For instance:
        -Tell me about a time you had to work with a difficult customer or co-worker, and how you handled it. Would you still handle it the same way now, or what would you do now with the perspective of hindsight?
        -Tell me about a time when you had to work under a tight deadline (or vice versa, tell me about a time you had a long term project with loose deadlines, how did you manage the work).
        -Tell me about a project or result you are proud of.
        -In your past performance reviews (or “if I were to speak to a former manager”) what was something that your were rated highly for, and what was something you needed to work on?

        A tough one, but one I like now that I’m a mid-level and have learned from some spectacular failures (but hated when I was young and didn’t have a good answer): Tell me about a time you failed.

      2. BRR*

        In addition to this I specifically look at each candidates resume and cover letter and see if I have questions I want to ask about that. Like last time I was part of the hiring process I saw a candidate wrote they used excel for X and that could be relevant but I needed to hear more about how they used it.

      3. synonym rolls*

        Thanks- we have multiple rounds of interviews, and many questions which pertain specifically to the position. I was hopeful that “would you be a good colleague” kind of behavioral questions might transcend professions. (I’ve also seen the general Internet behavioral questions.) Just fishing for other ideas!

        1. Niamh*

          If you have interviews with questions which pertain directly to the post, and are trawling the Internet for general questions to fill other interviews, you have at least one round of interviews too many.

  112. AstroChill*

    Until recently, I was taking care of an elderly parent while working part-time. I managed to get my bachelor’s degree and an MBA during this process, but I never found a full-time job outside of retail. Now that my parent is no longer under my care, I’m on my own for the first time and trying to find a job more in line with my talents. But I’m just terrified that it’ll be impossible to get employers to look past my lack of experience. Any suggestions for how to proceed?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Since you’ll probably be applying for entry-level jobs, I would recommend leaving the MBA off your resume.

  113. Faith*

    Recently, I’ve been getting a bunch of LinkedIn messages/voicemails/emails from various recruiters with whom I’ve never dealt before. All of them went something similar to this: “Hi! I saw your profile on LinkedIn and I LOVED your experience. You seem to be a GREAT MATCH for this position we are trying to fill. This is an associate teapot maker role that requires 1-5 years of experience. Call me back!” Except my LinkedIn profile shows that I have 10 years of experience in making ornamental beer mugs, and for the past 6 years I have not held a title below manager, which is at least two levels higher than an associate teapot maker. Why would someone be wasting their time trying to get me to call them about a role that I would not be even remotely interested in?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Because they’re cannon-balling that message out to a million people in order to get a bite. There’s no discernment in that tactic, which is super annoying. Ignore.

    2. Joanna*

      Chances are they aren’t recruiting for an actual role, instead they’re probably trying to get candidates on their books in case they do get jobs for particular specialities.

  114. Em*

    I work for a small, niche consulting firm (think gov/public sector clients) that uses a lot of technical skills from higher-paying sectors. I started a little over a year ago, and came straight from (PhD) grad school. I had no background in the substantive field but wanted to learn (hence I didn’t mind the lower salary), and had the technical skills they wanted. I’ve been performing well, and my managers have apparently been trying to recruit people with a similar background to mine without much success.

    I suspect a big part of the problem is that people with a similar background to mine in this region can make $20K to, on the extreme end, $100K more than what I make if they apply their skills in other fields. Is there a polite way to let them know that their salaries aren’t really competitive unless people have a really strong interest in the client area?

    ( Also, am I an idiot for not looking for something higher-paying? I like my job…ok, and I think my pay is in line with industry norms, but it’s got what I suspect are the usual dysfunctions of a small consulting company (disorganized, lowballed hour estimates for projects which mean 40 hours on paper is more like 50, some project managers who are a nightmare to work with). When things get obnoxious and I’m pulling multiple 50+ hour weeks, it’s hard for my mind not to drift to the fact that I could be making quite a bit more for the same or possibly less work. And it isn’t like I’m at a non-profit. I’m being an idiot and should start looking for what’s next, yes?)

    1. BRR*

      Well salaries aren’t set by what people can apply for with their backgrounds. They’re primarily set by the role in that industry. For example, a lawyer is going to make less if they go to work at a nonprofit than big law. It’s not reasonable for the nonprofit to match the salary of big law.

      For you, it sounds like you feel undervalued and I’m wondering if other unhappiness is stemming from wanting more money. It’s not being an idiot for being paid less, it’s about what you enjoy doing (and sometimes what job you can get, people have bills).

      1. Em*

        Yes, and I wouldn’t expect them to pay the salary of a financial or tech firm. But given the amount of overtime I work and the disconnect between the sorts of work I was told I would do and what I actually do (part of why I’m doing so well is that most of what they have me doing is not challenging or interesting), it increasingly seems like a bad deal.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        True, but if they’re struggling to attract the right people for the job, then they’re probably paying under market, which is a good thing to point out.

  115. Anon Millennial*

    A manager at my company’s main office died unexpectedly earlier in the week. I didn’t know her very well because I work in a different office. I sent along my condolences to a coworker I work with closely in that office but was wondering if there’s a better way to handle these situations. Thanks!

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      I think subtle condolences are enough when you didn’t know the person well but know others who worked with him/her. There’s nothing else you need to do here other than echo sympathy.

  116. Rat Racer*

    Maybe too late to post this, but I’m going to give it a shot because I really need the wisdom of this community:

    I’m in a Chief of Staff role, which means that I am a “Rat of All Trades.” About 80% of my job is “All other duties as assigned,” which means that I frequently overlap with other people in the organization. Sometimes it’s hard to tell where one person’s job ends and mine begins, but I’ve been at this for a while now, and I’m generally comfortable with the ambiguity, swooping in as needed.

    I have a colleague, with whom I overlap quite a bit, who is a great partner and compadre. Let’s call her Jane. Jane was assigned to a very juicy project – a new brain child of my boss, the VP. Then Jane went away on vacation, and – I don’t know – maybe my boss forgot that Jane was involved, and brought me in to lead the project. I didn’t know Jane had been involved until she asked me if I knew why she hadn’t been included in any of the recent meetings.

    Here is my question: I’m about to add Jane to all the meetings that are on the calendar, and give my boss the head’s up that Jane was left off the workgroup invites, so I’m adding her back in unless Boss objects. Jane was supposed to reach out to my boss independently, but I don’t think she has. My question is: Jane and I are more or less the same level and skillset; I don’t think this project really needs us both – especially at a time when resources and budgets are stretched precariously thin.

    Should I offer to back off this juicy project and let Jane run with it? I have a privileged position with my boss – I know that if I asked to keep it, she’d give it to me. But, honestly, I don’t care all that much – I just got a promotion, I’m done proving myself for a while, Jane needs this much more than I do and she’s obviously eager to get involved. I just don’t know if offering to back out makes me look non-committal and weak, rather than like a non-territorial good sport/team player.

    What do you think?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      It’s maybe a good thing to talk through with your boss?

      “Did you realize that both Jane and I have been assigned to this project? I don’t really think it needs both of us; can you help me think through how we each should be involved?”

      Maybe there’s a role that’s small but meaningful for you, with Jane as the project lead? I don’t think it’s ideal to frame it as “offering to back out” but as a re-alignment of your time and resources towards what you can best accomplish for the organization.

      1. Rat Racer*

        I like the idea of raising awareness with boss but not proposing a solution. Maybe I’ll just give her the heads up that I’m adding Jane back to the workgroup invites, and let Boss run the calculus of having both of us working on this still very nascent project.

        It’s very, very easy for me to step on people’s toes in this role, and I have the privilege of access that few others receive – I have to be careful not to abuse it.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      Why not just talk to Jane about it? Assuming that you have some ability to decide amongst the two of you who gets to head this up, I’d just talk to her. Ask if she’s interested in working on the project still (there’s a chance she’s not, if she was supposed to email Boss to get herself added back in and she hasn’t done that). I don’t think backing out of it makes you anything other than team-player-y though, if that helps and that is in fact what you want to do here. Just say something to the effect of “now that this is getting off the ground and Jane’s back, I’m going to step out and hand this back to her since it was originally her assignment.”

      It all depends on what you and your colleague want to do with the project and what you can arrange with Boss. It’s nice of you to not want to step on anyone’s toes and think about how it will impact budgets/workloads/etc. though. Good luck!

      1. Rat Racer*

        Well, I know that Jane is very interested in continuing to work on this project because we talked about it yesterday. Putting myself in Jane’s shoes, I’m guessing that she hasn’t emailed the boss yet because it’s kind of an uncomfortable email to write (“hey – did you forget I was leading this thing?”) It’s also possible that she did write to the boss and Boss has not seen it because God knows he gets 10,000 emails an hour.

        I suppose I could talk to Jane and offer to take myself off the project. There’s a small but distinct possibility that Boss intentionally replaced Jane on this project, so I wouldn’t want to present a solution as fait accompli before Boss has the chance to weigh in.

  117. Pineapple Incident*

    I love the internship I’m doing for school- it’s paid when most practical experiences aren’t, and the work is right up my alley. Being in a functional office is starting to shed some light on what isn’t working at my regular job though.. Half of the people I came to my unit to work with have quit since September. They’re only slowly being replaced with new and less experienced people, and a lot of the staff have frequent problems with our boss, Amy. Amy isn’t a bad person or a necessarily horrible manager, it’s just that she’s screwed up some specific things that people are never going to forget. Some examples-not knowing the bereavement policy and making an employee come in one day after a close family member died then sending her home (she had to use PTO, which shouldn’t have happened), holding some employees who trained for a leadership role to a ridiculous accountability standard such that several of those originally willing to step up have backed out, and pissing off the support staff. I’m only a secretary there so most of these things don’t affect me directly, but the environment is starting to get a little hateful especially during the hours she’s not there (we’re open 24 hours a day). Many more people are talking about quitting, and I’m starting to think I want to as well. They’ll be sad to lose me, but the flexibility this job provided is starting to pale in comparison to the crap environment and the fact that I don’t have potential to get any kind of raise appropriate to my performance (they only do small bumps for increases in experience once a year here that don’t cover cost of living increases). As soon as I can find a job that will beat what I’m paid plus the 401k match I’ll lose if I leave before next summer, I think I’m out.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Whoops- I meant to say that was just a rant. I don’t really need advice- I’m frustrated and don’t want to job search again :/

  118. Anon4this*

    This is a question for all the managers with direct reports to weigh in on:
    Recently I came across a Harvard Business Review article which talked about working remotely, and the factors that kept managers (and senior management) from approving more remote work and work from home options for their staff is not only the typical claim of “collaboration” being necessary and only achievable in person at an office; but also that in-office employees are far easier to manage.

    Do you agree or disagree with this sentiment (and why)?

    FWIW, I’d say that at the end of the day the work either gets done or it doesn’t, so it doesn’t really make sense that there would be a significant difference based on this factor alone.

    What do you folks think?

    1. Rat Racer*

      It really depends on company culture. Everyone in my office works remotely, so our whole corporate culture is built around virtual teams. It’s actually hard for me to remember what it was like when I could walk around the office and step into someone’s office – we rarely even launch phone calls without giving a head’s up ahead of time.

      My direct report (I only have 1 official one at the moment) works what seems to be ALL the time. Yesterday, I saw that she responded immediately to a colleague on the East coast who wrote to us at 3:45 in the morning Pacific time (!!) I have no questions whatsoever about her work ethic.

      My other direct report (who I fired – which is why I only have 1 now) wasn’t let go for taking advantage of the remote office, but because she couldn’t think critically at all. She was the queen of “There’s a hole in the Bucket” syndrome, couldn’t solve her way out of a paper bag. I think this would have been the case in a non-virtual office as well, except instead of pinging me 12 times a day over IM, she would have been knocking on my office door. Either way, she was a drain on everyone’s productivity.

      Not sure I’m being helpful… but that’s my .02 from my own experience managing virtually.

      1. Rat Racer*

        PS – I do not advocate that people who report to me answer email at 3:45 am. I’ve tried to tell her as much – doesn’t seem to make a difference.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I think it depends on company culture and the needs of the workplace. For example, I work in higher ed, and my job could be done remotely about 70% of the time. However, were I to work at home, I wouldn’t pick up on a lot of things from my more-knowledgeable coworkers. That said, we do have employees who work at home, but their jobs are specifically regional, so it makes sense for them.

    3. BRR*

      I’m with the others in that it depends. My job could be done 100% remotely. But I know of other positions where it makes much more sense for them to have in-person meetings about things then to try and has it out by email or phone.

    4. MsMaryMary*

      I think it’s a perception issue combined with “but this is how we’ve always done it.” Sure, the office may *look* busier if the cubicles are full of people typing away at their computers, but that doesn’t mean people are being productive. They could be typing away at fanfiction, or reddit, or posting blog comments.

      Frankly, I think it’s lazy management. A manager should be evaluating their employees on if they’re meeting deadlines, delivering quality work, and being responsive to customers and coworkers. A manager does not need to be in the same location to determine if the employee is meeting their expectations.

  119. Curious*

    I’ve been feeling a tad bit crazy at work over the past 1.5 years (of 2 years working) and finally discovered why after some therapy… I don’t want to be in this field (accounting WAY too boring and doesn’t interest me) plus my first 2 workplaces have been toxic/dysfunctional.

    After some soul searching, career counselling and reminiscing I feel strongly about pursuing criminal justice. I was in love in my law class in school, it was my hardest class and easiest A, plus I want to help people rather than just balancing books.

    My #1 goal right now is to get a new job in a more structured, professional work environment. I think I could continue this line of work if the workplace wasn’t so bad and then I could save a bit to take some time off for school and work part time. But then there is the kicker of how long to plan this!

    I was thinking that if I could find a better job by the end of the year that I’d dedicate at least 2-3 years to it and save, but if I am still stuck where I am at the end of the year that I should just bite the bullet and apply to my local college to get moving ahead on the path of the 3 year degree program.

    Any thoughts to help me determine my plan?

    1. Leatherwings*

      It seems like you have a clear path of where you want to be, and a good plan to get there which is awesome! The thing that gives me pause is the “bite the bullet and apply” phrase. Do you mean bite the financial bullet?

      I don’t think you should saddle yourself with huge student loans or other type of debt, it might make it harder in the future to transition into a field (it’s harder to work your way up in a new field if you can’t accept lower paying positions, for example). Maybe speaking to a financial advisor would be a good way to help you plan that piece of it if you end up not getting a new job in the next 6 months.

      Good luck!

      1. Curious*

        The bullet really is student loans… I just paid off my student loan from my prior education in 2 years and was so proud of that.

        A perfect world would be me finding a workplace that doesn’t make me so stressed on top of the already stressful workload that it ruins my health and personal life, working for a few more years would give me enough savings to fully fund 1/3 of my living/education expenses over the 3 year degree.

        But I am doubtful that I can find a new job within the year because it took me a full year to get the one I have now… admin positions are few and far between. I never even considered speaking with a financial adviser!

        This seems like something that really needs to happen soon if it will happen, I am still young with low living costs and no kids. I’d hate to wait too long and then have kids to support or a mortgage to pay off while I try to go to school.

    2. notfunny.*

      I’m not sure what exactly you would do after pursuing a degree in criminal justice- what does that mean? I would suggest finding a different, more structured role, perhaps at a college or university where you could take some classes, and that might help you see if the courses are as interesting as you think. I would be pretty sure about going back to school and if you can engineer a way to go without taking on debt you’ll be in better shape.

    3. JOTeepe*

      I’m wondering if maybe you might want to look at applying to a finance-oriented job for a company/organization that interests you. (For example, say, a budget analyst or staff accountant position at a criminal defense law firm; or an accounting position at a not-for-profit org that specializes in law/criminal justice.) This would allow you to continue to do work that you are skilled in while exposing you to an area you feel more passion for.

      Also, part of your dislike for accounting work is I am sure driven by how toxic your work environments have been. If you had a better work situation, you probably would not dislike the work as much.

    4. Cookie*

      Do you really need a new degree? From your response, it sounds like you have some secondary education already. Maybe there’s an entry level criminal justice type job that would accept you now and you can use that experience to determine whether it’s worthwhile to go back to school.

    5. (Not an IRS) Auditor*

      Have you considered internal audit or public in a small public firm with a cfe (certified fraud examiner)? Both are jobs that hire folks with accountanting backgrounds, but are far different on a day to day basis and include some investigative work.

  120. Jayden*

    Hello folks,

    Would appreciate your help with my current situation.

    I am a freelance professional with around 5 years of experience in my field. As the freelance world goes, my income varies from year to year. Last year, I made around $35,000. This year, it will be more like $67,000. I enjoy my ability to be untethered and work with new clients every year. However, of late, the desire to settle down and have more stability from year to year has grown to be a stronger feeling.

    That brings me to my current dilemma. I’ve been offered a job in my field of work in a town I don’t mind working in. The offer is for $45,000. Their posted range was $42,000 to $55,000. Thanks to public records, I know that the person leaving the job was paid $47,000. The institution that offered me the job has people who hold comparable titles in another department, who were hired within the last 2 years, who have seen their salaries increase from $60,000 to $65,000 in that short span.

    From everything I can read, these other positions and mine have the same profile/responsibilities but happen to serve two different departments of the same institution. They, however, have a prefix ‘Senior’ before their position title while I don’t. I don’t think that’s significant because they don’t have anyone under them without the prefix and I don’t have anyone over me who’s a ‘Senior’ in that same role.

    My dilemma now is whether I should make a play for a better offer, and if so, how? Should I mention the salaries of these other jobs (I could present it as either former colleagues from this institution showing me that info, or me finding it out myself)? If bargaining for a trajectory to that amount, what’s the language I should use (“I would be happy to accept this offer provided there is a clear path to $65k in 2 years through performance reviews”)?

    The type of work I do requires good gear and I could work with a lower salary like the one offered if I’m allowed a good budget to update the equipment they currently have. Is that something worth mentioning?

    Lastly, given how much I made this year, I am also having doubts about whether I should instead stick with freelancing. My fear is that the desire for stability will prove to be a mirage with the uninspiring salary, leading me to feel less than joyful with the institutional bureaucracy and rote work that I expect the position will come with.

    Please help!

    Jayden

    P. S. Don’t think this matters, but I was previously rejected for this position once.

    1. Biff*

      It doesn’t sound like a good deal to me. Sounds like they want you for cheap or not at all.

    2. Graciosa*

      I think you’re making a mistake assuming that “Senior” doesn’t mean anything just because they don’t have anyone under them who isn’t “Senior” and you won’t be under a “Senior.”

      In my field, there is a real difference between Senior Teapot People and Teapot People, in years of experience, skills, and expertise. Senior Teapot People don’t manage Teapot People, but they handle different – more difficult – types of work. Someone from the outside saying this didn’t mean anything would look both clueless and insulting.

      If the salary is the issue, I think you address that directly.

      If you’re not sure you want to settle for doing the same job every day in an institutional setting doing rote work, however, I don’t think salary is going to fix it. If that’s a real concern, I would stick with freelancing.

      If you’re good at what you do and manage your business well, you could be making a lot more than $65K in 2 years (esp0ecially if you’re making $67K this year)!

      Good luck.

      1. Jayden*

        Appreciate your response.

        I would have assumed what you said about “Senior” as well except the 2 people I’m referring to who have this title are also in the 5-7 years’ experience range and don’t bring to the table something I don’t based on their CV’s. So I assume it’s just the naming convention/hierarchy setup in that department of the institution.

        1. Kyrielle*

          But that doesn’t mean that they don’t mean what was said by Senior. In fact, I’ve never seen a Senior as a manager of any sort; in the industry I’m in, a Senior Spout Analyst is just a Spout Analyst that’s proven themselves very good. (The exact years of experience to get there aren’t always the same – it depends on skill and ability, and specifically skill and ability in the areas they work in.)

          You could certainly ask about the title and whether it would make more sense for you to join at that title, but you may also find out that they would indeed then have to pay you more, and that they only have the budget for a Spout Analyst, not a Senior Spout Analyst, and thus can’t give you the title or the pay.

          (It’s also possible the department is just cheaping on things, or the like, and you’d be better served to watch for future openings in the other department. From this distance and the outside, I don’t know.)

          1. Jayden*

            Good point. Honestly, I don’t think this department, into which I’m being hired, would be onboard with giving me the Senior title. The person leaving didn’t have ‘Senior’ and the advertised position wasn’t ‘Senior’. Maybe I’m just conscious of the fact that I was rejected last year, or else I would make that play.

            Overall, it sounds like I should try to – a) ask for a better offer the standard way (based on what I bring to the table) without mentioning these ‘Senior’s from the other department at all b) ask about the resources, but not as a counterbalance to the salary c) ask about the trajectory for growth (not sure here about wording – “do you see this transforming into Senior position in 2-3 years?”

            If that’s what everyone’s saying, I’m now thinking – 1) what should be the amount I should ask for and be happy to settle with, realistically speaking? 2) should I say the line from my original post – “I would be happy to accept this offer provided there is a clear path to $65k in 2 years through performance reviews” or is an increase through performance reviews an obvious understanding in standard institutional settings?

            1. Pineapple Incident*

              I don’t know that most places, or this place given what you’ve said here, would be cool with the wording from option #2. It’s likely to come off as if you’re very out of touch with the range they’ve offered if you want $20k more than they offered in 2 years time. It sounds like there’s a way to ask about the trajectory of the position, but don’t mention a change in title right off. Maybe something like “For others that have done well in this or similar positions, what is their trajectory with the company like? Have they moved into more senior roles eventually or garnered more responsibility?” and “How does the department assess and reward success by its team members?” Are you sure you want to work at this employer? It sounds like you might be able to accomplish more pay-wise given what you said about your income if you keep searching.

              1. Jayden*

                Thank you for that alternate wording.

                You’re right. From an objective perspective, I realize my statement sounds like I’m out-of-touch.
                I guess internally, the bit about the Seniors is still playing at back of my mind. I do appreciate what everyone has said, but at the same time, I’ve seen everything they’ve put out and both the quality and their qualifications seem like something I can match or surpass (with the right resources). So maybe I need to tell myself to forget about them – they are in a different department, with a different hierarchy. I should just focus on excelling in this department and moving up.

                As for whether I really want to work for this employer, that’s a deeper question I’m not sure I can convincingly answer. On one hand, I do desire stability and this could be a place where I could settle, buy a house and the like (where I’m currently located is becoming increasingly too expensive). I’m not just looking at the “job” – the tasks that I have to accomplish. Because if I were, the answer would be simple – it sounds much more rote, and a lot less exciting than the new projects I get to work on every year as a freelancer. As I’m sure a lot of you can relate to, this is no new problem – it’s an age old dilemma between freelancing and locking into a job.

    3. designbot*

      Everything you are saying you don’t think matters, absolutely matters. If you were rejected for this job before, that indicates that you weren’t on the top of that candidate pool, and the employer may feel like they are moving down their list when they offer to you. This absolutely plays into why you’re not getting the top of the range. The ‘Senior’ designation in a situation like this is usually a way of recognizing that someone has a certain level of experience–a senior teapot designer may or may not supervise any juniors at the moment, but it’s recognized that they are capable of doing so and of leading their own projects due to their level of experience, and the title is the way this is communicated. They are not offering you the Senior title, so it would be a mistake to compare yourself to those they do deem to be Seniors.
      Sure, try to negotiate that extra 2k your predecessor made, but don’t make it a dealbreaker. Absolutely talk to them about the growth trajectory for your position, but make it about more than just money. I think your point about the resources is a great one and something a lot of people don’t discuss until they show up and are disappointed–I really do think you should talk to them about what setup, though I’m not sure that should be talked about as a balance to your salary, more like just a matter of course, “I want to make sure that I’ll have what I need to do this job at the highest level possible.”
      In the fulltime vs. freelance debate, that will ultimately be yours alone to judge, but I would remind you that in a corporate environment salary is only one portion of the compensation. Don’t underestimate the power of the benefits package–if they’re offering a good one, a $45k salary could feel very similar to $60k of freelance income after taxes, health insurance, etc.

      1. Jayden*

        Thank you designbot. Quick addition – I was rejected last year, not this one. So I’m not sure I wasn’t on the top of the candidate pool this time around because I did gain significant skills over the past year. I assumed that made me the top candidate this time around. Now they could be thinking – “Hey, he obviously wants this bad – he applied last time around as well. So let’s try to get him for less”.

    4. Leatherwings*

      I don’t totally agree with Biff. I think it’s likely you can negotiate for more. It will probably be next to impossible to negotiate up to 60k but you can certainly make a case for 5k-10k more IMO. However, the reasons should be based on your experience and skillset, not how much you know other people make.

      Also, as you said you don’t know if sticking with freelancing will yield more or less than this next year. If you’re looking for stability, I think it’s worth at least considering this offer.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Seconding this. Also, don’t forget to calculate benefits into your offer, which you don’t get as a freelancer. Don’t know how good the company’s health benefits are, but at least you get PTO, right?

        1. Jayden*

          Thank you for chiming in. I am definitely factoring in benefits. If not, it would be a simple calculation where freelancing made me more money. They do have PTO – 25 days. It’s the benefits and the desire for stability that are pushing me in that direction. It’s the lower salary (and knowing that colleagues in a different department seem to be paid significantly more) and the potential of monotony that are pulling me back.

    5. CMT*

      Since you talk about salaries in public record, I assume this is some kind of public sector job? If so, their ability to bring you in at a higher pay grade could be limited. (Like, you could need certain credentials or years of experience to move up.)

      1. Jayden*

        A public institution, yes. But like I mentioned, their posted pay range was 42-55 and my predecessor was paid 47. My offer being 45, do you thoughts on what I should ask for and be happy to settle with?

        1. CMT*

          The range though, could be the entire range for the position, including things like step increases. So, you can make it to the top of the range if you’ve been there for enough years to get that far. That’s what I was trying, but struggling to say in my first comment. (And I’m still not sure I’m articulating it very well right now.) Anyway, my thoughts are that your comments here make you seem reluctant to take it, so I probably wouldn’t if I were you?

          1. Jayden*

            From my understanding, it is the hiring range. In other words, what you’d start with.

            I’m definitely reluctant. Let’s say if the offer was for 60k, I would have definitely taken it. But at 45k, I’m torn whether sticking it out with freelancing will be the better bet. Uncertainty in the latter is the issue.

            Seems like I should ask for 55 (top of their hiring range) and see what they come back with. I’m now going to search through Amy’s archives to see if she recommends countering over phone or email, but feel free to share any thoughts.

    6. Anon Moose*

      If they were smart, they should want to pay you 47+ anyway, with the overtime laws coming into play in December…

      1. Jayden*

        Maybe they are expecting me to negotiate then, as Alison often suggests they do.

        Being a public institution with public records, I wonder if they almost expect me to find out what the predecessor was paid.

        Overall, it seems people are deeming it as not the best opportunity (based on my wording); so that’s giving me more fuel to ask for at least 55.

    7. BRR*

      You need to disregard the “seniors.” It’s possible they were hired with more experience or their responsibilities are different from what you think they are. They’re also in different departments and you really don’t know what their responsibilities are. Seniors are often just people who have more knowledge and responsibilities, nothing to do with management. Do not mention the senior salary and do not ask to be promoted to senior in 2 years with a raise. It’s demanding a lot and and comes off as being seriously out of touch. I would be very turned off if a candidate did this.

      Since it sounds like this is a university position, is this a specific pay range for this position or a pay grade that this position falls in? At universities it’s common to have large pay bands but offer towards the bottom. I also don’t think they expect you to look up what the predecessor made. That is someone with a track record and their compensation might reflect that anyways.

      I would negotiate salary based on how you would negotiate not knowing anything else (this other information seems to be skewing your thinking from my outside perspective). There is a post on here for what to say. Do it by phone. And asking for $55K is likely too much. The typical rule is 10% max (not saying it’s a hard and fast rule but just something to not seem way out of line). Asking for the max is saying to them that you are their perfect candidate in every possible way. Also as mentioned above, is the position currently exempt or nonexempt. If it’s exempt they might want to keep it exempt. But I would go more with “because of my experience with a,b, and c I was hoping for a salary of $48K” and then stop talking.

      For equipment, you shouldn’t factor that into your compensation. They are paying you to do a job and whether they give you nice or crappy stuff shouldn’t be factored into what you take home. It’s like if they give you a faster computer should they dock your pay? Do you downgrade to a metal folding chair and get a raise?

      Lastly, if you’re unhappy with the salary, can you still do some freelancing?

      1. BRR*

        Or think of it this way. They didn’t think you had the skills for the job last year. You got the skills to bring you up to getting an offer. If you only expanded your skills to get an offer, it’s possible you can only command a salary on the lower end of the range. But I do think you can and should ask for more.

      2. Jayden*

        BRR – those are excellent points. Let me try to address them:

        OK, from now, I will forget what I know about the “seniors” despite my temptation to do otherwise (everything their and my position creates is for public consumption so I’ve been skewed by the quality of what they’ve put out, which I know I can surpass).

        I will also not be asking for a trajectory to 65k in 2 years, but instead keep it more general – ask about performance reviews, what the trajectory would be for someone who does well in this position and the like…

        Yes, the position is exempt and I’m sure they will keep it that way. And I might be able to do some freelancing, though my time and freedom will be constrained.

        I understand your point about equipment not having to factor into salary, but would it be fair to ask for better equipment (or whether in general I will be working with an equipment budget) in the tone of “what will help me do my job at the highest level possible”? It’s the same deal with remote work, the position isn’t eligible for telecommuting but it was indicated that an alternate work schedule would be acceptable. Remote work and better equipment are just perks that will help me think of the lower salary as still worthwhile.

        The only bit I disagree with in your post is 55k being too much. Wouldn’t it be a reasonable assumption that because I applied and was rejected last year, they think I want it bad and are therefore lowballing me? Having made 67k this year, I know what I’m asking for is not beyond what the market is willing to pay me.

        1. BRR*

          To your last point, it’s possible but I don’t think so. My thinking of it is you didn’t have the qualifications last year to get an offer and I’m thinking of that as the bare minimum. You’ve expanded your skills to get an offer which puts you past the minimum but I am skeptical that it puts you near 55k. Now I know you should usually ask over what you want because you usually meet in the middle but 22% is a lot. And I’m not sure about how it works in the freelancing world, but since your last year’s salary was $35K is it possible to drop that low again making $45K-$47K more appetizing?

          My position also requires a budget for resources. I think it’s a great question to ask about equipment. I ask it in every interview I’ve had because if not properly supported I’m being set up to fail. I wouldn’t consider it a perk though, it’s directly responsible for how effective you can be at your job. Perks are things that benefit you, not the output of your work. I wouldn’t specifically ask for better equipment (do you know what they have) but you can ask what equipment they have or is there a possibility of procuring other equipment.

          And you can definitely ask about an alternative work schedule since that has value to you.

          And as someone else mentioned, the benefits. Health insurance, retirement matching, if you had to pay for your own equipment before you don’t now.

          1. Jayden*

            Fair enough.

            I can guess what they have based on the output, but will be asking what exactly what they have. But based on their current output, I can also say for a fact that better equipment would help up the quality significantly. So maybe I will go the route of “is there a possibility of procuring other equipment that will help us output content at the high quality we are aiming for”.

            As for when an institution says they are open to alternate work schedules but not telecommuting, does that mean they are ok with, say, 11-7 as opposed to 9-5 or working weekends instead of certain weekdays, but are not OK with 9-5 with me working the first 3 hours from home? Would it be bad form to ask for the latter in case they assume anything negative?

        2. Undine*

          As a freelancer, you are being paid to cover your expenses in addition to salary. That includes cost of equipment, cost of the workspace where you are doing some/all of the work, accounting costs, health insurance (if you get it through a job, you usually get a group rate, so better insurance for the money unless you are young), cost of an accountant if appropriate, cost of vehicle, business license, different tax rate, etc. In addition, as a freelancer you spend time that isn’t paid marketing and managing your business. I have seen it recommended to charge as much as twice per hour as a freelancer as you would make salaried/exempt.

          Good companies do not sit around plotting how to lowball workers. They also don’t have a ton of money in the back room they can suddenly whip out for a shrewd negotiator. They have a budget and yes, they have probably left some wiggle room and they will try to get the best value for money with what they have, but they aren’t sitting behind their desks combing through your history looking for reasons to be unfair. (And if they are, you don’t want to be working for them!) You are at risk of seeming out of touch with business norms if you go in with the attitude that you are worth So. Much. More. and they really know it. And if they reject you for that now, they will remember you if you ever apply again.

          That said, if you think you are going to resent the constraints of being an employee and feel every day that you are being cheated, don’t do it. I went back full time after 10 years as a freelancer and although I don’t regret it, it was a hard transition.

          1. Jayden*

            Thanks for your perspective Undine. I don’t think it’s so much a case of a bloated sense of self-worth as market value. As per everyone’s advice, I won’t be bringing up the Seniors’ salaries in the negotiation, but fact is, from an objective POV (as much as I can have) – if you were to look at what they are outputting and what I’ve been doing as a freelancer, you would say that I am and will be achieving at the very least what they are in terms of quality. They also happen to be in my age bracket with comparable experience. I wish I could use them as precedent and ask this department to mirror the other, but that seems far-fetched.

            It’s not so much a case of them sitting behind their desks scheming to lowball me but the psychological premise that because I had applied and was rejected previously, they may have naturally assumed that I would go for a low offer.

            Like you pointed out, there are a lot of other benefits to be factored in beyond just the salary when comparing it to the freelance world. With all that in mind, where I stand based on what everyone has said and my own analysis is – 45 is a low offer, 50 an average one, 55 a good one and 60-65 an excellent one given my responsibilities and skill set. I’m ruling out 60-65. It seems to be a question of whether I should ask for/aim for 55 or 50.

  121. "You got a raise!"*

    I received an email recently congratulating me on my recent merit raise…however everyone got the same raise! It’s not a merit raise, it was a COLA raise that is called “merit”.

    I received the highest marks on my last 2 yearly evaluations. No one else got a perfect score in my unit (maybe even the whole dept) except me and yet we all get the same raise (why reward top performers the same as below average performers?!). I will always do my very best, but it is so frustrating to receive these congratulatory emails and know that they mean nothing.

    And I hate seeing our lowest performing meatball posts on IG about how #blessed and #deserving she is of her f$&;ing raise. Aaaahhhh!!!!

    I work for a very large university system, so I wonder if other academic institutions do the same thing.

    /vent

    1. fposte*

      Is it public? Merit raises really aren’t a thing at my public university; we get whatever percentage is in the salary plan and that’s it. Individuals can occasionally successfully agitate for more in light of a clear mismatch (I did when I took on a higher-level job but didn’t get the salary), but it’s not usual.

      1. "You got a raise!"*

        Yeah, it’s a public university system.

        I know I’m getting stuck on the nomenclature :)

        I would also say that our raise is in the salary plan that is released several months in advance. It’s all part of the plan, so why say it’s on merit? You’ll get it no matter what (unless you’re part of a union and they negotiated for more).

        Last year they said there was a chance of an additional 1% based on performance reviews…lies! My 100/100 eval got me an additional 0% LOL!

    2. Sophia Brooks*

      I also work at a large university, and we are told we only get a COLA of 2.5%, that there are no merit raises at the university. However, I received my letter at home that I got a 3.9 % merit raise and a 2.5% “wage adjustment”. Don’t get me wrong, I am happy, but this happens every year, and I wonder if it happens to everyone, or just me. Also, the Dean reads all the reviews of every staff member and decided on their percent (my director who does my review doesn’t even know my salary).

      1. "You got a raise!"*

        Nice surprise! May it be a yearly occurrence :)

        Our salaries are public, so you could easily look up a coworkers salary if you want…and yet it is highly discouraged to discuss salary. So weird.

        Your situation is almost a double edge sword. If you ask Bob and he got an additional 5% you might be like WTF. But if you ask Bob and he’s like, IDK what you’re talking about I only got the 2.5%…then you might feel bad.

    3. CMT*

      At my state government job, the annual step increases that everyone gets on their work anniversary are called merit raises, even though everyone gets the exact same increases as laid out in our union contract.

      1. LQ*

        Ours has a weird thing. We are union so there is this odd little thing about how we (all employees) deserve the raises because whatever so they are merit. But I kind of wish they’d focus on the COLA part and let bosses decide the merit part.

        That said? If it isn’t different at your institution really this is a thing to accept, recognize this is the way they handle it. The best way in my department to get raises is to get promotions. Some people say it is impossible, but I’ve gotten …4 in 5 years. Possible. For us promotions are often sort of just acknowledgement of a slightly higher level of work and a way to pay you more. Which is great if you can manage it.

    4. Dear Liza dear liza*

      I’m at a state university too. We so very rarely get raises from the legislature, that when we do, TPTB almost always go for across-the-board, everyone gets the same amount. Everyone is underpaid already.

      I feel you. I’m consistently the highest rated person in my unit and it means nada.

      PS My state was supposed to give us a 3% raise this year and the governor just announced we are in a budget shortfall. So much for that!

  122. Catherine*

    Just had to share somewhere. I’m trying to find a job away from my insane boss (Mr. “You must take 1 hour vacation time for a dr. appointment even if you as a salaried employee work a 14-hour day because I don’t want people to have vacation time left later in the year”).

    Tuesday I had my third internal job interview. The first two were great and I was their top candidate! Not only was it something new, but it was basically a dream job – EXACTLY what I want to do and the pay was great. For the third interview, hiring manager asked me to present process improvement plans to implement in the new role. I did a full slideshow on it to include budget/revenue impact for each itema and detailed plans for implementation. So I go to the interview and he tells me they’re not filling the position after all even though they have the budget; he just thinks they can add it to other people’s existing roles and not hire someone new. But they loved my plans so much that they are going to have some other people work on them. AND they want me to submit more plans on a weekly basis going forwards. UGH, WHAT. Of course my current manager agrees completely and he has added this to my workload now, despite the fact that I work 75+ hours each week in my current role. I told him I am not going to have time for that, but he responded that I am not taking my job seriously and that he arrives at 4AM every day so I shouldn’t complain about being busy.

    I’m SO BUMMED. A great opportunity just took me from bad to worse :(

    1. fposte*

      Oh, no! And how obnoxious with the “We won’t hire you for this so could you do it for free?”

    2. Brownie Queen*

      WTF, are you saying you interviewed for an internal opening and instead of it turning into a job, it turned into more work per week added to your already full workload?

      That really sucks, I would be bummed and pretty angry too. Hope you find something outside your organization soon as they have shown they obviously do not value you at all.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Talk to the other manager about not having the time to do those proposals/plans. Your manager doesn’t get it, but the other one might if you explain that you’re already working a 75+ hour week, and it took you 15 hours to put that plan together. As a one off proposal for a job interview that was possible, but it’s not sustainable.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        This. It has to be said- and if your manager could be going around telling people you’ve got time you don’t have, they need to hear it!

    5. Dynamic Beige*

      But they loved my plans so much that they are going to have some other people work on them. AND they want me to submit more plans on a weekly basis going forwards.

      This is why I’m fundamentally opposed to pitching for new business. It’s one thing if you’ve already got the job and are going in there with options, but it’s kind of common in the design industries that companies will bring people in to pitch and are just idea shopping. I’ve had more than one client talk about how they pitched some kind of creative to a particular company, didn’t get the job and then a year later or so was working on another project with that company and found out that they used the creative, just hired someone else to execute it (or did it in-house).

      So Catherine, you’ve just learned a few very valuable lessons. 1. It’s not just your boss who’s a penny-pinching jerk at this company and 2. if your plans were just that good, it’s entirely possible your company’s competitors (or similar companies) might also find them useful as well, enough to give you a job that doesn’t require pulling 75 hour weeks (that is completely insane and unsustainable for anyone). Keep an eye on how much they save or improve with the suggestions and use those as talking points for future job interviews — outside the company.

    6. Mazzy*

      OMG, this is crazy, unless you’re making $150K+ and this is normal for your industry or salary range…if that is not the case, I’d be working 9-6 or more regular hours and let them react to that.

  123. LisaD*

    Oof, I’ve been waiting for open thread. I had to do my first termination yesterday and I’m still reeling. It went as well as these things possibly could, but still, not a fun thing to do and I’m concerned for the now-former team member. Her role was essentially being eliminated and although I had the option to transition her into another role, she has had consistent interpersonal issues on the team. Despite consistent feedback and a couple of conversations with HR, she continued to have professionalism issues including walking out of a conversation with me and leaving the office, and rolling her eyes and saying “No, I’ve got too much on my plate today” when I asked to meet with her about what happened in that conversation. She also consistently distracts others from work to socialize and tries very aggressively to bond socially with people who don’t want to befriend her outside of work–she’s gotten a reputation as a real pest.

    The hard thing is she IS talented and a sweet, funny, interesting person, she just has some awful habits she doesn’t seem to be able to change. I feel like I failed her by not being able to help her get out of her own way. I know this is just part of management, and the CEO even personally made time to tell me he felt I made the right choice and that he thinks more highly of me knowing I took action on the issue–but I still feel guilty.

    Anyone else have similar “can’t save people from themselves” stories to share?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      If it’s any consolation, think about how much better your company and employees are now that she’s gone. She sounds really toxic, actually. Those rude habits have no place in a good work environment. You know you did the right thing!

      1. LisaD*

        Thank you :3 I do think it’s the right thing & I don’t think our usually very compassionate CEO would have made a point of thanking me for taking action on her if it wasn’t… but it’s still always hard. I do think we’re in a much better place for the decision and I’ll be able to fill the role I was going to transition her into with someone who won’t have to train as much for it–which is a definite plus as we are moving too fast to train someone & there’s really nobody in the company who could have spent time training her on it.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I posted a couple of months ago about something that happened where I work. I’m a secretary usually on day shift (7A-3P), and there was another secretary that worked on the evening (3P-11P) shift. Evening shift secretary wanted to do the job minimally, and from the desk (I usually only sit down half of my shifts or less because copying, fixing things, getting things for patients/families/nurses takes walking around). I didn’t have problems with her myself, but I didn’t work with her since we were on opposing shifts, and people were starting to complain A LOT about things not being done well during her shifts (rudeness to patients/family, lack of initiative to find answers for uncommon questions, things left undone). I tried for weeks during our handoffs to point out some things I usually do, and make guides that were easily accessible on the computer we shared to help. It got bad enough that Boss asked her to come in and re-orient to the job with me. After she got this news she apparently slugged through a shift sullenly, then n0-call-no-showed for a whole week (which constitutes auto-termination where we work).

      Sometimes you can’t do anything about it. I’m sorry you had to do the termination though- that can’t be easy.

      1. Mazzy*

        I work with one now, not in my department though. He is a chronic complainer. Some of his complaints are valid, but the valid ones get lost in the heap of complaints he dishes out. He curses at thinks and gets frustrated too easily, is always complaining, and doesn’t actually fix any of the things he bitches about. I think that if he tried to fix some of the items he complains about, that he would garnish some respect. Too make matters worse, he does pretty much the bare minimum, even though it is a high paying job, and it would be a low paying entry level job if the actual content was only what he does now. Even worse, he has significant down time, in which he could fix some of the issues he’s always complaining about, but he does nothing. He also truly believes everything is someone else’s job or should be outsourced. I think in that sense he was tainted by working at a huge overstaffed company prior to this, where you had lots of downtime and could get away with not taking ownership of problems. I bet his job is something someone in my department could do for two hours a day, but I haven’t raised that possibility because our company is very apprehensive to fire people.

        1. LisaD*

          Oh yeah. I’ve worked with those before, too. Big companies ruin people for small orgs. And vice-versa, I have a friend who went from our small startup to a very big agency – he was actually told to slow down and that his pace was stressing others on the team out!!!! I laughed until I couldn’t breathe when I heard that, because of course from the inside everything STILL seems to move too slowly for us… so I can’t imagine being asked to go slower. I guess if you are comparing to a huge slow moving company, it looks much faster from the outside!

    3. Wilton Businessman*

      Sometimes it’s just not a good fit. People like that will fit in somewhere.

    4. Pwyll*

      Ugh, firings are so hard sometimes.

      We once had to let someone go for being late every.single.day. his entire first month, and he left early every day as well. By HOURS. This was an hourly role that required coverage, so definitely not allowed. Problem was, he had been a former intern (who truly excelled) and his work product was excellent.

      Sadly, we had to let him go when the impact of his tardiness caused a serious screw up. The VP he reported to was distraught by the whole thing and felt like he’d failed the former intern by not teaching him appropriate professional norms, but we ultimately decided the only way he was going to get the lesson was by being fired. Clearly, daily “You may not be late and you may not leave early” conversations weren’t sinking in.

      The “save him from himself” part comes later: a few months after the firing he e-mailed the VP and asked to grab a coffee to discuss and formally apologize for his behavior. The VP accepted, and they set up a time at the local coffee shop at 8 AM. VP called the office at 10 AM (!) to ask whether the guy showed up there, because he’s still waiting. He finally received an e-mail at 2 PM apologizing that his car broke down and he couldn’t call to inform us until now because he was on the phone with the insurance adjuster. We live in a major metro renowned for not having parking, the guy had previously complained about not being able to afford a car when he was employed . . . this person was DEFINITELY not driving. VP called immediately, he answered, and it was quite clear he was still in bed. I mean, how many more opportunities do you get?

      1. LisaD*

        Oh my lord. That’s hilarious yet sad. How in the… gosh. I’m an always-late person myself (I live in LA so it’s not as big a deal as it would be in some cities) but to keep a VP waiting for several hours because you slept until 2 PM?!?!?! I think I’d sink into the ground and die.

    5. StillHealing*

      I wish more people had your guts. There comes a point where those types of toxic people impact the work being done or not being done – on a daily basis. They come to work every day to make the work environment “all about them”. So many managers say “deal with it” because they themselves are afraid of what the employee might do.

      Did you lose a lot of good employees due to her behaviour? Did anyone report having been stalked by her outside of work? It doesn’t matter how good an employee they are if they are forcing themselves into people’s lives. She has serious boundary issues and it’s unfair to her coworkers to keep her employed.

      I’m sure, over the next couple weeks, other people will be thanking you for firing her. It was difficult to do but it was the right thing, rest assured.

      1. LisaD*

        Thankfully I didn’t lose anyone – everyone on my team actually tried really hard to learn to get along with and include her. I think she just didn’t click with anyone in the office and that stressed her out, so she tried harder, which immediately came off as trying too hard. The two biggest issues were hugging people/touching their hair without their permission (which she did stop completely after an HR conversation) and asking for rides home from people who didn’t feel comfortable with her asking so often. No stalking or anything like that – just being overly friendly, offering gifts, asking people to spend time together outside work, and generally just not being able to read who was interested in her friendship and who wasn’t.

        But there were just constant other minor issues that you can’t correct without someone who is willing to make a commitment to do personal self-improvement work… I encouraged her to seek a leadership coach or life coach to help her with her body language and vocal tone, because she would respond to criticism by being very visibly wounded and sulking in a way that sucked the air out of the room and made others uncomfortable. She agreed at the time but never actually followed up by seeing a coach. Lots of asking coworkers for dating advice, being overly familiar, and even saying she “ships” (wishes they were in a relationship) certain coworkers together – just really looking hard for her work environment to meet her personal social needs.

        It’s hard because for a lot of people in the office, they DO have those familiar relationships with coworkers, and she clearly just wanted what other people seemed to get easily. It definitely is a cliquish office and the cliques don’t realize they’re as tight and exclusive to others as they are sometimes. But, you can’t force people to like you, and you can’t just jam your way into a years-long friendship because you’re jealous of it… tough stuff and all probably best sorted out by finding a working environment with more people and therefore more chances at finding someone else who is also new and looking for friends.

        1. Aurion*

          Oh man, everything else might be correctable in a work context, but the shipping would really creep me out. Her (ex)colleagues are actual people, not characters in a TV series. And even if she was shipping them, for god’s sake don’t say it out loud. O.o

          Sometimes it’s really hard to do the right thing, but I think all your colleagues have affirmed your decision.

        2. StillHealing*

          LisaD you wrote: “, just really looking hard for her work environment to meet her personal social needs.” The ex co worker who was obsessed with me cornered me in a room and said the reason for her frequently interrupting my work was because she had needs I wasn’t meeting. She has “a need to connect and socialize and it’s YOUR job to meet that need!”. I reported the whole thirty odd minutes of her trapping me in my office having a circular conversation that went nowhere. She could not hear my words when I said to stay away from me and never interrupt my work again . Put everything in email unless it’s an absolute emergency. Management spoke with her but it did no good. A month later she was stalking me outside of work.

          You did the right thing. Truly, you did.

    6. Rubyrose*

      I have fired people and yes, it is miserable.
      My most recent experience is as a non-manager. I was instructed to turn over a piece of work to a less experienced worker. He could not be bothered to come to scheduled meetings he accepted, nor explain later why he did not come. On the ones he came to, he did not take notes. He did not do the work assigned to him.
      I could not save him from himself. So I decided to let him fail. I was careful to make sure there was no permanent, irreparable damage, but fail all the same. Several of us received hourly emails for 3 weeks because he would not do the research needed to work the issue. When I was asked about it (even from our manager!) I would point out that it had been turned over to my colleague for action; he knew that if he needed my help he just needed to ask. It took a while, but he finally started taking on the job.
      LisaD, you did the right thing. Your person was given multiple chances and feedback and did not take them to heart. Interpersonal issues are the hardest to address, especially if someone does not want to. I’m sure your staff is very happy now.

      1. LisaD*

        Thank you for that. When I told my team they collectively pretty much said “we don’t have to pretend to you that we’re sad about this, do we?” They were nice to her and bid her a very friendly goodbye, but they’re definitely relieved not to have to work with her anymore.

  124. JC Denton*

    I’m in the process of changing companies. I accepted a conditional offer from my previous employer, because I was interested in coming back and love the company’s work. Due to the nature of the company’s business, the qualifications and processing needed to go from a conditional to a final offer can take some time (weeks to several months). When I worked there, conditionals would be rescinded for a variety of reasons (e.g., no headcount, budget, didn’t meet qualifications, etc.) – so I know my offer isn’t firm until I have a written final offer.

    Yet in the meantime. I’ve got my current employer asking if I’m interested in working on other teams; more high-priority, but also longer term, projects, and so on. Am I doing myself a disservice by turning down these opportunities while I wait several months for a final offer that may never materialize? I like my current company’s perks and benefits, but the job was never what I thought it would be. We’ve gone through a few manager turnovers and the current batch just isn’t up to par and is steadily leading the team into chaos. Quite a few people have left and a few folks have joked I’m one of the last (senior) people standing. I’m not in any danger of losing my job, but somedays I wonder about my happiness.

    Ultimately, is it disingenous to pursue an internal role knowing full well I may only be there a few months? My ethics tell me it’d be wrong, but at the same time I can’t find a better road out of perdition.

    1. Kyrielle*

      A conditional offer is awesome. But it’s not, as you note, a real offer until it turns into a real offer. If you can leap at shorter-term projects, I would – but I wouldn’t cut myself out from longer-term opportunities because of a conditional offer that may not ever turn real.

      For each possible internal role, play this out: 2 weeks from now, you get told that in fact the position you were hoping for on the conditional offer has been closed with no budget, and you won’t have a new job. How do you feel about giving up the internal role?

      If you’d feel fine, you shouldn’t take it now. If you’d feel ambivalent, it’s a judgement call. But if you’d be regretting it, especially if you’d be regretting it harshly? Then I’d take it.

      Also, you may be sending signals of “I have something in the wings” if you turn everything down. You know better than I do whether that will make your current employer likely to cut you loose if anything happens, or not. (I know there are some places where any thought that you might be leaving would lead them to try to give you reasons to stay, so of course that’s not always a bad thing for them to suspect!)

    2. designbot*

      I say try to improve your situation any way you can. I’ve done something similar before and nobody seemed to take it badly. On one hand I was negotiating a promotion for myself, hiring a junior designer, etc. and then I was interviewing at the same time. When I put in my notice the recent changes I’d been advocating for were actually brought up as a point of “well I guess we knew you were outgrowing this role already.”

    3. Wilton Businessman*

      It’s not an offer until it’s in writing.
      It’s not an offer until it’s in writing.
      It’s not an offer until it’s in writing.
      I think it will look weird to your current company if you DON’T want to grow there, putting you in jeopardy.

  125. Anonymous vent*

    I work on a team where there is only one other person besides me. My coworker has anxiety. Our boss has implemented some new procedures to help him alleviate his anxiety and improve his performance. These new measures are: him being allowed control over the layout of our shared office (including the stuff on my desk), me helping my boss double check all of coworkers work before it goes out (on top of having to do all my own work), three times daily check ins where I must check in with him to make sure he is okay, a daily meeting where the three of us meet to make sure he isn’t stressed about anything work related, and me answering all the phone calls that we get instead of us sharing that duty.

    I am really trying to be understanding and I hate that I feel like a bad person for feeling like all this is unfair because of how my stress and workload is going to increase. My boss says we can discuss it next week but that the changes aren’t going anywhere.

    1. CMT*

      Those do not seem like reasonable accommodations to me, or at least the one where your coworker gets to control what goes on your desk!

    2. Leatherwings*

      It’s like each of these individually isn’t that big of a deal, but all of them together is… a lot.

      It’s hard to question other people’s accommodations though so in your meeting I would discuss with your boss ways that you can prioritize them so you can manage your workload and all this extra stuff.

    3. Hibiscus*

      That is exactly NOT the way to help anxiety. It is totally giving into his feelings instead of managing them appropriatly. The coworker needs to seek help on managing his anxiety from a professional.

      1. NotASalesperson*

        As someone with anxiety, thank you for saying EXACTLY what I was thinking.

    5. Rat Racer*

      Unless this guy is a completely irreplaceable genius who can bring about world peace and cure cancer, I don’t know why your boss is bending so far over backwards, risking the morale of the rest of his team. I would be tempted to be snarky and say “as a result of these accommodations, I am now developing anxiety and need x, y, z PDQ”

      (Note: this is in no way meant to discount people with anxiety – just the boss’s response which is so over the top)

      1. Mazzy*

        I couldn’t do this. I often come in early or stay late to avoid other people so I can identify and solve larger issues and I often need to get creative to solve them. Being creative and working on bigger picture items does not happen when one is interrupted multiple times a day to coddle another adult.

    7. Anonymous vent*

      Thanks everyone for validating how I feel about this and for being supportive. I wouldn’t mind little things like answering the phone because I want to be understanding but this is too much. I want to tell my boss that a mental illness is not an excuse for being controlling, but that feels like an awful thing to say. I am going to talk to him about it though, outside of a meeting with the three of us.

      1. designbot*

        I think taking steps to have the coworker feel in control of their own space, work, day, etc. are fine and even admirable–many of us would love to be able to take more control of our circumstances! Where it crosses the line though is allowing them to control YOUR space and your work. Do you two have to share an office? If they could have their own space, that might go a long way…

      2. NotASalesperson*

        Here’s my two cents on how to approach this:

        1) Look up ADA recommendations. There are actually specific generic recommended accommodations for people with anxiety, and the ones you listed are definitely not part of them.
        2) Focus on how it’s impacting you. At the very least, it’s a challenging work environment, and this is definitely moving significantly toward micromanagement of your work and your space so it’s difficult for you to find it comfortable.
        3) Focus on your workload. It sounds like you’ve been given a bunch of extra work because of this – do you have time for that? Can you ask your boss about how to prioritize this?
        4) Keep in mind that so much of what you listed is completely unreasonable, regardless of what your boss says.

        I have anxiety. I avoid functioning like your coworker because pawning responsibility for your emotional state onto others can lead someone down a path to an abusive relationship (work or romantic) VERY fast. It is your coworker’s responsibility to manage their own mental health and your boss’s to find a reasonable business solution to accommodate their needs.

        You are not being at all unreasonable by thinking these accommodations are over the line.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      Those aren’t reasonable accommodations. He is literally unable to do at least one vital function of the job (answering phones), so why would he have been accommodated there? Very strange.

      1. Observer*

        That’s actually not correct. In many cases shifting one piece of a job to another person can be a reasonable accommodation. In this case the problem is not that the other person is not answering the phone, but that she’s not being expected to to pick up the slack in other areas.

    9. Belle diVedremo*

      You have to work at understanding this because it makes no sense.

      It is unfair and your stress and workload are increasing AND you’re being given a role of mental health management for a colleague. Are you a licensed health care practitioner, with the necessary qualifications for this role? How long is your boss likely to maintain those daily meetings and work review rather than making you fully responsible for them? How is the state of colleague’s anxiety going to be reflected in your own evaluations going forward? Where is your HR dept in these arrangements?

      You are not a bad person, your boss is bonkers.
      Do not take personal responsibility for any of this, that’s bad for your personal and professional health.

      I’d be tracking how these changes affect my productivity to be able to discuss it with the boss, being strict about leaving work on time, and starting to look at what else is out there. If your office has an Employee Assistance Program on offer, give them a try. They won’t report the boss, but can help you negotiate the best way to cope while you look for something else.

      Good luck.

    10. Observer*

      This doesn’t sound like anything close to reasonable accommodation to me. Not in the legal ADA sense, nor in the common sense of the words sense.

      Worse, as others have noted, you are not a mental health professional. How on earth are you supposed to deal with his anxiety and know if he’s “OK”? And what do you do if he is NOT ok? Again, as others have noted, aside from the professional unfeasiblity, this is just not the right way to handle anxiety. He needs professional help that you can’t provide.

      The real question is how to make your boss see that this is not going to go well.

  126. Fluffer Nutter*

    Friends, 2 questions on resumes: 1. I’m 45 and am starting to worry about age discrimination, esp. as my area is hot right now and is being seriously overrun by younger workers. I’m not looking right now but probably in the next year or 2. I figure 50 is my last shot. Is it odd to leave my BA off (early 90’s) and just go with my Master’s (mid 00’s) and more recent jobs, of course? 2. I’m having formatting problems because I work on it at home and at work (boss needs updated one for grant apps and such so it’s ok to do on company time.) Going from Google Doc to Word 2013 (I think?) to Office online (which is all we have on work Notebook) is making me crazy. Thanks for advice!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I think it would seem odd to leave off your BA. Why not simply list your BA and Master’s without the dates?

    2. Lizabeth*

      What I did is leave the date of my degree off (1980) and trim the number of jobs down to a single side. I just started my job search so don’t know if has impacted it or not.

      1. De Minimis*

        Just seems too weird to have a graduate degree by itself. I agree with Persephone on what to do.

        I am around your age and considered doing something like that at one point, but am glad I didn’t.

        1. Fluffer Nutter*

          Sensible suggestions. My career counselor friend said don’t leave the dates off or people will know I’m hiding SOMETHING and assume I’m 90- you know, the resume equivalent of a fuzzy glamour shot on your dating profile. I suppose no one strategy works all the time.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It’s incredibly common for people to leave degree dates off once they’re 10-15 years out of school. It’s actually more common than leaving them on.

    4. Bob Barker*

      I started leaving the years off of my degrees when I was about 35. They’re both still in there, just not the years. You can guess I didn’t matriculate last year (from my face, from my job history), but it’s a little harder to put an exact year to me.

      In re #2, you can work in WordPad (minimalist writing tool on PC; comes pre-installed) and save as .rtf; that’ll help you move a file from one environment to another without introducing formatting errors. However, .rtf formatting kind of sucks (see: minimalism), and I always convert to docx or PDF before submitting.

  127. Arthur Wellesley*

    My boss keeps telling me I need to “show more ownership” but absolutely refuses to explain what he means. In fact, he gets angry when I ask him. How can I figure it out?

    For some background. I graduated from college about a year ago and have been working an office job since then. My old boss left last month. My new boss is a former co-worker who just got promoted into management.

    My new boss has had a couple of conversations with me about how I don’t show enough “ownership”.

    The first time he said that, I said something like “I’m really sorry, but I’ve never heard that word used in that context before. Can you please explain what it means?” and he said something like “Do you realize how bad it looks for you that you have to ask that question? I’m too busy to explain it to you, I have a meeting with an important guy in our company in a few minutes. You’re old enough to figure it out yourself. Don’t make me have this conversation with you again.”

    He pulled me aside again today to tell me that I wasn’t showing enough ownership of an assignment, I said “I’m sorry, but I’m still not entirely sure what you mean. But let’s say I handled the assignment in this other way instead. Would that have shown more ownership of it?” New Boss shut me down again, said “It’s not my place to tell you how to do things, and I don’t have the time to. You need to figure this out on your own or you won’t grow. Don’t make me have this conversation with you again or it’s going to be very, very bad.”

    I’m pretty worried right now. I don’t know either way, but I’m not sure if he’s trying to build up a paper trail to use to fire me, or if this is just his style of management. What should I do?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Start jobhunting immediately. It actually IS his place to tell you how to do things, and to define what he means by ownership.

      Right now he’s a bad boss, and he may become a better one, but probably not in time to save yourself from the effects of him.

      Is there an HR department that you can check in with? “I’m having an issue with my new boss, he’s given me feedback but when I ask for specifics on the feedback, he tells me he doesn’t have time to explain it to me and I should be able to figure it out myself. I don’t know how to approach this, because if I could have figured out the feedback on my own, I already would have.”

      Other senior people or people on your level that you feel you can speak to honestly, who might be able to explain what he means by it?

      1. CMT*

        I agree about starting to look for something new, but I don’t know if I agree about going to HR. If the problem really is that you require too much guidance for the role you’re in, going around your boss to HR to ask for more isn’t going to look great. Which is not to say that your boss is not handling this in a terrible way. He definitely is. But I’d be cautious about giving him more ammunition, if you think he’s planning on letting you go.

        1. Arthur Wellesley*

          Yeah I don’t think going to HR is a good idea.

          This guy just got promoted to management. He used to be my coworker, but he’s been here for a few years longer than I have, and got promoted to associate manager. I’m his first direct report.

          If anything, I would go to his boss. But I’m not really comfortable with that and I think most people here understand why.

      2. Mazzy*

        I completely disagree and will comment directly to the OP. They are one year out of school, and while I agree that the manager isn’t great, I don’t want the OP to think that managers commonly lay out every step of what you should be doing unless one is in a process job with repetitive tasks.

        1. Observer*

          She’s not asking for step by step instructions. She’s asking for a definition – and if not that at least an indication of whether a course she laid out would be appropriate. He wouldn’t even answer that.

    2. CMT*

      I think maybe he thinks you’re asking too many questions, about things you should be figuring out or deciding on your own. Hence his reaction to you asking more questions in response to his ownership comments.

      1. Yet another Allison*

        Sure, that’s possible, but he could steer Arthur toward more independence by, you know, *managing* him, instead of being opaque and vaguely threatening (!) when Arthur is asking for clarification.

        1. CMT*

          I’m not saying the boss is going about it the right way, I’m just offering up one possible explanation.

    3. DevAssist*

      Hi, your boss sounds… not good. I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

      In terms of the phrase, I’ve always taken it to mean that I need to be invested in a project. If I’m working on a group project and I “take ownership,” I am investing myself into the project and I am the one building, directing, refining, etc. Basically, I take it to mean that you’re attached to the work- it’s not just work, it’s YOUR work. You’re taking initiative.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Your boss is an asshole.

      “Ownership” is a reasonable thing for him to want you to show though. It means not just executing a series of activities that someone assigns you, but thinking of yourself as truly responsible for the success of your area … which translates into things like seeking out any missing info that you need to do your work well, proposing next steps on projects, spotting problems and devising solutions to them, drawing lessons from work to improve it in the future, etc.

      1. KR*

        This is what I mean when I ask my employees to show ownership on their projects. Now I’m wondering if they know what I mean or if they’re just naturally awesome.

      2. BRR*

        I would take a guess that this boss might have a different (or possibly no) definition of ownership than this one.

    5. Packers Fan*

      I’m sorry I don’t have a suggestion but this reminds me of “The Office” episode where Charles asks him to give him a “run down” but doesn’t explain what it is or how much time should be spent on it.

    6. Jaguar*

      What bosses typically mean by taking ownership of a project / task / whatever is to manage the project yourself, guide its direction, etc. Treat it like a thing you’re doing and in charge of and would be doing in your spare time for yourself anyway. Make your own decisions on it and solve the problems yourself. Managers should be asking that of their employees.

      That said, often managers demand that but don’t empower employees to actually do it. This happens by not establishing the scope and requirements. Constantly changing the scope and requirements. Micromanaging. Constantly reversing the decisions you make. And so forth. Asking employees to take ownership and then not trusting you. That’s how the take ownership thing usually fails from a management level.

      What your boss is doing is even worse. He’s bad on a human level, not even a management level (he may be bad at that as well – I can’t tell from your letter). You should try to take ownership of whatever you’re working on, as he requested, because it’s not a bad idea anyway. But you should also, for your own well being, just get away from working for such a toxic person. Whether that’s looking for new work, asking to be put under someone else’s management, transferring, etc.

    7. Fabulous*

      “Ownership” in relation to your first example of the word you didn’t understand would have been to look up the word yourself and applied it to the context he used it in. And then if you still had questions, you can ask him “Did you mean XYZ?” instead of “What did you mean?”

    8. designbot*

      I agree with many of the posts above–it may be a totally valid criticism but his delivery is not actually helpful. Not taking ownership is usually my #1 issue with junior employees, so I want to provide you some examples of ways I typically see this issue come up:
      * an employee who is frequently helping on the same project does not bother to remember basic issues like file locations or project numbers
      * not bothering to learn the firm’s project folder structure. Pretty quickly a junior designer should start grasping the patterns of things and be able to hop onto a new project and know where to look for what types of information. That’s not to say that they’ll find everything on their own all the time, but they should be able to make a good faith effort to look and will often find some amount of background material on their own.
      * doesn’t ask questions when they come up but hands in incomplete or not thought through work with the explanation of “well you didn’t tell me whether to do X or Y, so I just left it off.”
      * Not asking for timelines, deadlines, checkins, etc. but rather drawing a task out for as long as possible until someone else makes the effort to come find them.
      * being late or leaving early on days when they know a deadline is coming up
      Does any of this behavior sound familiar? Are you constantly stuck needing to check in with your boss every couple of hours because you don’t know the next steps? If so, start asking bigger questions about your projects–the timelines, delivery methods, clients, etc. so that you can start knowing the bigger picture of things. Then you’ll be able to more reliably know what the next step in the process is, who to talk to about what types of questions, etc.

      2. Arthur Wellesley*

        This is really good, and it’s the type of answer I wish I got. A couple of those absolutely apply to me.

        I’m annoyed with him though. Because a) I’m asking in good will; my attitude is “Okay, I’m not happy that my work isn’t up to standard. I want to fix that. Can you explain just a bit more? You’re telling me you’re unhappy with my work but not much in the way of why.” and b) The guy being paid to tell this to me isn’t! These conversations have started by him pulling me away from my desk, and making me guess why “he has to waste his time on this.” The tone is very much “I’m important, you’re not, I don’t need to do anything because I’m the boss and I’m beyond having flaws or being questioned.”

        So thank you, thank you so much, but I get the feeling he’s intentionally bekng a dick instead of unintentionally being a poor manager.

        1. Graciosa*

          I think you need to think about this differently.

          Yes, he is more important to the company than you are.

          This is only true at the moment, and it can change, but it is the current reality. It doesn’t mean he has an inherently greater worth as a human being, so don’t get upset about this – it just means that his time and contributions are more valuable to the company.

          Your job is to make his job easier.

          If you approach this issue from that perspective rather than focusing on why you think *he* should be trying to make *your* job easier, you are more likely to be successful. Assuming he’s intentionally being a dick is not going to help you, even if it’s true. Setting yourself up in an adversarial relationship with your manager is never a winning move.

          Yes, management includes providing direction and coaching employees, but he’s messaging pretty clearly that you’re demanding too much of his time and attention for the results you’re producing. My star employees are the ones who learn quickly, solve problems, and get results without my having to spend an inordinate amount of time holding their hands. My problem employees demand a lot more of my time and attention; sometimes I can improve the situation enough to make it workable and sometimes I have to manage them out.

          He sounds a bit fed up with you, and you need to fix this if you want to succeed in this job. Not because of anything to do with the merits of whatever you think is going on, but because he is your boss.

          Yes, there is a power imbalance here, and you are on the losing side. That will be true more often than you realize in your career.

          It is because of that imbalance that I am telling you to focus your energies on finding ways to make him happy, make his life easier, etc. You can’t change the power structure – it is part of the rules of this particular game.

          You can play to win, play as you like and try to ignore the rules and see what happens, or decide to walk away. In my experience, the second option is actually the hardest and gets the worst results – but you can do as you wish.

          Good luck.

          2. Arthur Wellesley*

            Hi. Thanks for this, I will try to apply your advice. I’m sorry though, because I had a meeting with my boss that cemented the idea that he’s not rational, and that I can not improve by improving my mindset of my work. So I think that the source of power I have here is that I can leave this job.

            I had another conversation with my boss yesterday afternoon around 4:30, where he pulled me into his office, and he yelled and asked me if I’m mentally ill. He did this after I asked another coworker where we keep a specific type of file, which I need to know for a new responsibility I’m picking up. His precise wording was “what the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have a learning disability?”

            I think he’s just trying to be a bully and push me out of the organization now. If he was asking out of an interest in helping me somehow, he wouldn’t be raising his voice, displaying angry body language, and swearing.

            I really dread talking to him or seeing him in the office now. This is because he’s not willing to tell me what I can do better, and he gets angry at me when I ask him to elaborate on his feedback. It’s escalating to a point where he’s swearing, and I really don’t know what I’ve done. I can see flaws in my work, but I can’t see anything I could’ve done that is nearly so bad that it’d cause him to blow up at me. But he is. I honestly think the only way I can make him happy is by quitting or getting fired. I feel very nervous just from writing this post.

            I think I’m going to have to apply this advice at my next job, unfortunately. I’m going to try and be more responsible and take more initiative at this one while I still have it, but I started applying to new places after I got home last night.

          3. Arthur Wellesley*

            Thanks for this. It’s good, and it made me feel a little better. But I don’t know if he genuinely wants me to improve, or he’s just trying to put me in a situation where he makes me. Because the last few interactions I’ve had with him have seemed very questionable. On Friday around 5:30 when I was about to leave, he pulled me aside to ask me if I have a learning disability. I said no, because I don’t. Then he told me to not come in on Monday and set up an appointment with a psychiatrist. I asked him if anything had happened to prompt this, and he said “nothing in particular. But I don’t want to see you coming in on Monday. Go to a psychiatrist because I think you have a learning disability.”

            I hate to say it, because it does sound paranoid, but I don’t think that he is acting in good will, and that he’s trying to set me up to fail. There’s an insistent part of my brain that keeps telling me that he is doing this to isolate me from my coworkers and to keep me permanently on edge, and if I wanted to manage an employee out because I personally disliked them, I’d do it like this.

            And again, you’ve given me some good advice but I’m pessimistic that I’ll be able to apply it at this job. I’m going to print out your post, fold it up in my wallet, and look at it when I am feeling especially hopeless here though.

            When I go in on Monday, I’m going to look at everything that’s been assigned to me and think “what’s the most efficient way I can get this done and report it, without draining anyone else’s time?” I’m going to try to suspend my thoughts about my boss and think about work in that way while I’m in the office. Because I’m going to be applying to as many new jobs as I can when I’m not working .

        2. BRR*

          Your boss sucks because his job is to get results and that includes sometimes being specific about things.

        3. designbot*

          It may be that he’s intentionally being a dick, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t still address the issue anyways! Don’t let him being a dick about it stand in the way of you getting better.

          1. Arthur Wellesley*

            Thanks. You’ve given me a much healthier way of looking at this situation.

            Honestly the responses from this make me think that he’s trying to manage me out. I’ve had a suspicion that he has for a while, and enough other people think that he’s being weird / shady about it that I’m going to start looking for a new job.

            But I’m going to start looking for other jobs. New boss also told me that he doesn’t want to see me going for afternoon coffee with coworkers, or going to department happy hours, because I “haven’t earned it.” At first I thought that was just his way of expressing dissatisfaction with my work performance. But now that a lot of other people have said that he’s handling the ownership thing in a very questionable way, it’s pushed me over the edge of the “should I leave this job?” fence.

            Maybe this is paranoid, but now I am wondering if he’s trying to isolate me from the rest of our team, and trying to put me on edge by giving me vague and ominous feedback on my work, for use as ammo against me in the future.

            I’m definitely going to make serious efforts to be more proactive, more thorough, and ask fewer questions (after looking at it I can see these are weak areas for me) starting when I get in on Monday morning, but the attitude I’ve observed from my boss first hand and the feedback I’ve gotten when relating his behavior to both friends and people online makes me worry that will not be good enough for him.

      3. LQ*

        I’ve been told I show good ownership so one of the things I do that isn’t on your list that I think is part of it is I’m always able to explain why I made the choice I made, I have an explanation and a defense of X, and I’m also able to say why I didn’t choose P or Q or Z.
        When I do have a problem I’m not sure of I’ll bring it up to my boss with a “I think we should X here’s why.” This seems to really show that elusive “ownership”.

    9. Chaordic One*

      In one of my previous jobs as an administrative assistant in an HR department “showing more ownership” meant doing a lot of followup to make sure that employee paperwork for new employees was turned in.

      Specifically, it meant nagging, cajoling, and begging employees at branch offices, where new employees were hired, to fill out their part of the paperwork and get it returned to me in a timely manner so that I could finish processing it. It became extremely stressful and overwhelming. But I owned it.

      After I left I heard there were incidents where certain new employees did not get paid in a timely manner. My replacement did not bother with the follow up that I did. She said, “I sent them an email asking for the paperwork and if they don’t return it so that the new employees get paid, it’s not my problem.”

    10. Mazzy*

      It definitely would help to have more details, and I think your boss is being a bit curt – especially since they just were promoted and should be trying harder to be supportive. However, I’ve seen too many people be held back by not taking ownership. I’ll give an example back from my first job, maybe it will give you some ideas.

      At my first job, I processed paperwork for new sales. This meant contracts, channel agreements, NDAs, sales agreements, commission plans, RMAs, and quote requests. Some people literally just processed them, and never advanced. I was promoted because I took ownership of them. I called customers when there was missing information, sometimes following up multiple times to get it. I followed up on quote requests.
      I asked to sit in on a meeting with our biggest external sales company so they could start seeing me as a go-to person for questions and paperwork and information requests, instead of by boss. That worked out great. Apparently my boss was giving them generic answers because he didn’t have time, but I had time to put together spreadsheets and documents for their sales people that actually impressed potential clients, increasing sales without us actually having to hire more internal sales representatives.

      After a while I got tired of the generic language in our brochure, so did research on some industry and company specific information, and was allowed to re-do our marketing materials. I then did the same with more technical internal sales tools.

      I took over our customer database and asked for increased permissions to upload the sales docs there, then realized how many of the sales leads and corresponding account values were inflated, so got more involved with data integrity in there, which also led me to re-do our account value forecasting, which led me to get more involved with finance to assist with overall budgeting. Which allowed me to identify areas where we overspent for IT and other services, and I asked to be allowed to shop for alternate vendors, which I found, and which became mine to manage.

      At that point, I had visibility into so many areas of our business that I was always able to spot problems and opportunities and was never bored until I left. There was always a bill that was too high or a customer’s sales that had dropped off that needed to be addressed, or an industry trend that would directly impact our sales that we had to look into.

  128. Junior Dev*

    I got a new job, and it’s my first full-time programming job!

    It’s at a marketing agency developing their internal tracking tools. I’m excited because I had gotten a bit bored with pure web dev and wanted to go in a different direction, and also, FIRST FULL TIME JOB!

    I’d done an internship (look up “my boss turns it into an ordeal every time I ask a question” in the archives) and TA’ed at a code school and this job is basically the goal I’ve spend the last two years working for.

    So I thought I’d share, and thank Alison for her great advice that allowed me to get to this place, and also see if anyone has advice for succeeding in the environment I’ll be in.

  129. ljs_lj*

    I had a really nice phone interview this morning and hopefully they’ll be contacting me for a Skype interview next week. It’s a job that I’m really excited and enthusiastic about (finally!). I did get asked the dreaded “What salary range are you expecting?” question and I think I deflected well, but if I have the Skype interview I’ll need to have something to offer, I think. So:

    Does anyone have a good resource for salary ranges for teachers in New England? I teach Coffee for Tea Drinkers and it would be at the secondary level.

    1. burnout*

      In Texas, you can find teacher salary schedules by looking at the particular school district’s website. They are considered public employees, so the data is available. You could also Google for it, I’ve found info that way too.

  130. Lizabeth*

    Has anyone had “good” experiences with head hunters/job agencies? I have started job hunting (creative/graphics) in a major city but only have applied for positions directly with companies. I see a lot of postings through agencies on the websites but since the times have changed a lot since the last time I job hunted (over 10 years) and I didn’t go through job agencies in the past, I have no clue if it’s worth going that route or is it a waste of time and energy? TIA

    1. Fabulous*

      I’ve gotten all my recent jobs through agencies. Two I applied to postings directly with them, and one of them called me out of the blue. They were all long-term jobs; the first lasted 18 months, second 13 months, and the one I’m in now is 4 months with the possibility of extending or hire after. A lot of places also “head hunt” for direct-to-hire roles too.

    2. Wilton Businessman*

      Today, a lot of jobs are filled by head hunters. A lot of companies use multiple head hunters, so you may end up seeing one job listed by multiple recruiting agencies. Unfortunately, this is the name of the game today. You will run into a lot of head hunters that are your best friend until the client says “No Thanks” and then you won’t hear from them until the next job comes up. It’s not a reflection on you, that’s the way some bad recruiters work. Good recruiters will ask you a lot of questions and make sure you’re a decent fit for the job before they submit you. Those are the same ones that will call you back if you don’t get the job and tell you why.

    3. Graciosa*

      I got my first job at my current employer through a recruiter who contacted me through LinkedIn. The experience was fine, no problems, and I think it was (and still is) a good fit.

      That may be a bit different from one of the kinds of agencies you mentioned – I’ve never worked with one who was trying to place me in multiple positions (if I can put it that way – awkward phrasing). My only experience was someone sourcing me for a single specific job and employer.

    4. designbot*

      I had a decent experience with Creative Circle. My first/only assignment with them actually wound up leading to a full-time job, though it wasn’t a dead-on hit for my niche sub-field it got me through the recession which isn’t nothing.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Nope! Never had a “good” experience with a head hunter.

      The jobs they offered weren’t terrible in of themselves, but they were pretty much what I was already doing, and they all offered me salaries that were at the level I was already making (or less). In addition, the positions were usually accompanied by long commutes and one didn’t even offer paid parking. I really felt like I should have been offered at least 10% more than I was already making.

      Unless you’re looking for a temporary job, they aren’t that great.

  131. Jersey's mom*

    I have to get this off my chest because I am so embarrassed.

    Within the last 48 hours I was apparently attacked by some kind of biting insects. I have over a dozen red welts on my legs (each is about the size of a quarter) which are each surrounded by a 2-4 inch area of swollen skin, as well as a few additional bites elsewhere on my body (including one on my chin). Of course it burns and itches like crazy, so I decided to work from home today, as I’m in short shorts, with lots of calamine lotion applied liberally and often.

    I called my boss this morning to let him know I was working from home. I explained about the insect bites on my legs and then said “I’m not coming in because I can’t put on pants”.

    Good god. I still can’t get this conversation out of my head.

    1. Fabulous*

      This is hilarious. And I’ve found myself in the same predicament at least once every summer. Last year, my FEET gotten so bit up, I think I had around 30 bites on my feet and up my legs. I wore a dress that day and flats that didn’t aggravate the bites too horribly. I think Band-Aide actually has a decent bug bite gel (it’s clear!) that helped tremendously too that I reapplied a couple times during the day.

      Mosquitoes suck.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        The Band-Aid Anti-Itch Gel has been discontinued (there is a newly formulated version, NOT clear, that doesn’t act the same way for me). However, the active ingredient in the good stuff was camphor. I have found that buying a small bottle of camphor and applying a dab with a Q-Tip cuts the itch immensely.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Lol! I’m sure if your boss has even a SLIGHT sense of humor, he will appreciate the situation’s severity with grace. :) Hope you feel better soon!

    4. fposte*

      I am the mosquitoes’ favorite meal, and I have found OTC hydrocortisone ointment to be a miracle improvement over calamine.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Benadryl creme or ointment is the best. It contains a mild anesthetic that stops or lessens the itching. (Personally, I’ve had better luck with the ointment.)

        OTC hydrocortisone ointment or creme is the next best thing. It seems to speed up healing slightly. (Again, I’ve had better luck with the ointment and prefer it over the creme.

    5. Allison*

      When I was younger I’d put a big, thick layer of Benadryl on a bite, and would then cover it with a bandage to keep the cream on and keep me from scratching. Same could be done with calamine or hydrocortizone cream; you can only apply Benadryl a few times a day, I learned the hard way if you apply it too often or to too much of your skin at once you can feel very drowsy and strange.

    6. Jersey's mom*

      Thanks everybody for your concern and suggestions!! I’ve got a rotation going, of OTC hydrocortisone 2x day, medicated calamine (with a benedryl-like ingredient) and oral antihistamines. It’s getting better, just slowly.
      I can’t figure out what bit me – I’ve got regular mosquito bites which are not a problem. I generally use DEET when I’m in the field…..so all I can figure is that it’s some superbug that is not affected by DEET.

      1. Moo*

        Dissolve a bit of meat tenderizer and spritz on mosquito bites. The only downside is it can be sticky and requires frequent reapplication.

        1. LQ*

          I was visualizing a big ole meat mallet and hitting the bites, it can sort of help the itching I guess?….

      2. Mallows*

        Could it be chiggers? I encountered them for the first time last year. Horribly itchy welts. I think I put rubbing alcohol on them.

      3. vpc*

        are you in an area that has fire ants?

        ’cause that’s how I react to them. Chin is a bit out of bounds… but ankles up to knees? every. time. I’m. in. the. garden. quarter sized welts, red even further out, stings like heck for a couple of days and then itch like mad for another week.

    7. Liane*

      Oh, how awful. Hope you recover soon.
      Once I called in sick due to bee stings, to which I am somewhat allergic; I don’t have breathing problems but I get very bad local reactions, beyond typical swelling or pain. We had a hive in the walls of our house, and one day while I was mowing I disturbed the bees, somehow. (Had never bothered them before.) I got stung at least 6 times, mainly on my face. My face was not just badly swollen, it was strangely distorted. I went to the doctor and had to get cortisone shots. It was a bad enough reaction, that he also gave me 2 oral cortisone prescriptions, one for the current reaction, and one to have on hand in case I got stung again.

    8. JaneB*

      I react badly to s lot of insect bites, and find many bugs like to bite in places where fabric is taut when you bend over…. I once had to work from home for s couple of days because I was unable to wear pants, in the uk sense of underwear as well as the us one of trousers, due to dozens of bites along the knicker-elastic line which had turned into hard, red, painful swellings an inch or so across… And yeah, my boss at the time was pushy, so I ended up telling him I could probably come to work as long as he didn’t mind below the waist nudity… Sigh. i was very glad when he left s few months later, I could just sort of feel the image hanging in the air between us unspoken, you know??

  132. zora.dee*

    Not sure if I want to cry or scream… Just saw the job that I didn’t get was posted again, because the person they hired quit after only 4 months. I was one of two Events Coordinators, came on as a temp, worked my ASS off for SIX MONTHS to pull off their insane, overly-ambitious events and travel schedule, never made a single mistake and solved dozens of major crises, was loved by Every Single Person in the organization EXCEPT my manager (including people who were notoriously difficult to work with but were all super happy with my work). Was pushed out by my manager because she didn’t like my ‘tone’ and asking questions to clarify her vague instructions she considered “Undermining her authority” and was constantly pushed to work overtime but not claim it on my timesheet.

    And not only is the person they hired because I was ‘not-experienced’ (even though I kicked ass at the job for 6 months) leaving after 4 months, but the other event coordinator who worked with me is interviewing for another job today and planning to give notice soon.

    I just want them to realize this manager is screwing up the department and for them to hire me and let me do the job because I loved absolutely everything about it, except that manager.

    Mostly a vent, I guess, but can someone remind me that I don’t want to work for that manager, or for the place that would choose her over me, even if I just got to ride unicorns and eat cupcakes all day for a million dollars, please??? Thank you. ;o)

    1. Jersey's mom*

      Sure. If you took this job, not only would you be doing your job, working for a crappy boss and working unpaid overtime, you’d also be expected to take up workload of the person who is planning on quitting soon. Also, when they finally got around to filling the vacancy, you’d be expected to do the work of two people, train the new person and work lots of unpaid overtime. You dodged a bullet.

      1. zora.dee*

        Thank you!! You are so right, and I really needed to hear that. Grrrr, Screw them and their idiocy!

  133. twig*

    Does anyone have experience with Toastmasters? was it helpful?

    For background: I’m an introverted shy-ish (I’ve come a LOOOONG way in the shy department) admin assistant at a state university.

    My job has changed in the last year a great deal — I’m now supporting a VP level exec and coordinating meetings etc with folks across campus. I’m need to develop some networking skills — I’m not that great at small talk etc. I’ve been encouraged to attend various social events on campus (retirement parties, annual meetings etc) and “develop my network.” I’ve gone to a few, but am not sure what to do with myself. If I don’t see someone I know… what do I do? (this is complicated by the fact that there are probably people there that I know through email/phone but have never met)

    So is Toastmasters something that can help with this? there is a chapter on campus that I’ve been thinking of checking out.

    (My dad once encouraged me to join toastmasters to brush up on social skills/public speaking — BUT he has the same social issues as me — maybe more so. I wonder if his advice on this point is the equivalent of ‘pound the pavement to find a job’)

    1. Aurion*

      I participated in Toastmasters for two years.

      I enjoyed the Table Topics a lot (someone calls you up and you do an off-the-cuff response to a prompt). The prompts were generally random, fun, and low-pressure. I didn’t enjoy the prepared speeches as much, but that’s generally because the idea of a prepared speech is more stressful and you are being (nicely) scrutinized for your weaknesses. My public speaking improved with both Table Topics and prepared speeches, and I definitely became more aware of filler words and such. I just enjoyed the first more. Table Topics also helps you to talk off the cuff about things–obviously in day-to-day chitchat you won’t have a subject or prompt, but if you’re ready and able to chatter about any random topic presented to you it translates to real life too. I’ve regressed a little in my off-the-cuff chattering skills since I stopped Toastmasters.

      Also, there were so many speakers for Table Topics, so I got to hear from a lot more people; some of the best speakers in my club were long-time members who no longer did prepared speeches (or did them very rarely) so the only time I heard them speak were Table Topics!

      Ultimately I left my club because 1) it was far and 2) I didn’t like the founder/long-standing member…he was a very Kind Old Grandfather type of person and always tried to Mentor Other People to Expand Their Potential whether or not they wanted to. Once he called me and asked me to meet him at a coffee shop to help him with a speech. So I trekked across the city and…the 40 minute conversation turned into 95% talking about My Potential and 5% talking about asking me to roleplay as a MC and present him with an “award” as part of his speech (the theme was an acceptance speech for an award of some stripe). The whole thing could’ve been done over the phone or over email, he just wanted to see me in person to talk about My Potential. I was very miffed at wasting my day and bus fare over something so trite that I wasn’t interested in.

      (No, he wasn’t trying to scam me or anything. He was retired. It was 100% about my potential, sigh.)

      How much you enjoy Toastmasters will depend heavily on the culture of the chapter. Shop around to a few clubs before you join.

    3. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I’ve been thinking about doing Toastmasters as well. I’m introverted and quiet (thought I refuse to say I’m shy!) so I thought this would be a good thing.

    4. Lia*

      Not me personally, but a woman I worked with joined it as a way to overcome her shyness, which she felt was holding her back from getting a better job. J. was very skilled but in an entry level role, because the higher-up positions required a lot more face-to-face work with customers.

      She joined it and grew SO much, it was truly amazing. She also leveraged her new skills into a far better job with another company!

    5. periwinkle*

      I intend to join Toastmasters once I’ve completed my current graduate program (between work and school there is little time for anything else). One of my colleagues was an adequate but frankly dull presenter when he started Toastmasters; the experience has helped him develop into a confident and polished presenter. He’s always had the rock star abilities but now he showcases them better. I’ve become better just by imitating him!

      So hey, it’s worth a try.

  134. Dawn*

    OH MY GOD YOU GUYS I AM NOW FINALLY GOING TO BE 100% OFFICIALLY AN EMPLOYEE AT MY JOB

    I have been a contractor for over a goddamned year (illegally I might add) but I am finally going to be an actual employee with actual PTO and actually not having to calculate my own damn taxes starting on the 16th!!

    IT’S A FRIDAY MIRACLE

    2. Allison*

      Congratulations! As a fellow contractor, I know how much it sucks when you don’t have the full benefits of being an employee, so it’s great when you can finally get those! Are you already planning your first paid vacation?

    3. Wakeen's Teapots, Ltd.*

      LET US DO THE DANCE OF CAPS. DANCE, CAPITAL LETTERS, DANCE!

      CONGRATS!

  135. Felix*

    Any recommendations for a good brand of in-ear earbuds? I sadly share an office and need to use them almost all day to concentrate. It’s considered more professional here to have in-ear, but good lord are mine uncomfortable!!

    Sometimes my poor little ears are aching by the end of the week, but going without means my productivity drops… Ideas?

    1. bb-great*

      I don’t have the model number handy, but Sony makes some that come with three sizes of little rubber doohickeys (the part that actually goes into the ear). I have small ears so most in-ear headphones bother me too but the smallest size of the Sony ones were perfect.

      1. animaniactoo*

        I just posted a link to them which should show up shortly. I’m figuring we’re talking about the same ones since your post showed up while I was off pulling them up off my previous orders. lol.

    2. Dawn*

      Sennheiser CX 300 II Precision Enhanced Bass Earbuds

      $50 on Amazon, sound great, super comfy, have used them for the past… five years? Six years? Usually all day at work. Zero complaints!

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        I’m not sure if they’re the same model, but I bought some of this brand last year and they are great. So small and comfortable I can sleep with them also have a bit of noise canceling so the sound is really good.

    3. animaniactoo*

      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003EM6AOG/

      They come with 3 different size bud ends that you can customize to the size of your ears. The sound is great for the price – far better than some more expensive one. We love em so much we bought our chiropractor a pair, and once she tried them out, she started gushing over them too. This is not to say these are the be all and end all miracle A Ha!!!! earbuds – just that they’re pretty damn good overall from both a comfort and a sound quality standpoint. And inexpensive to boot.

      1. BRR*

        I have these and LOVE them! Are they the best headphones ever? No. But for cost and performance (both sound blocking and sound quality) they can’t be beat. On the train I have to partially take one ear out so I can hear when the conductor comes. I used to have sony ones (wonder if they’re the same as mentioned above) but two pairs in row had one ear stop working. I cut most of the cord off and use those has ear plugs since they block out sound really well.

    4. Lady Kelvin*

      I get iFrogz from Walmart. They are $10, surprisingly noise cancelling (I can listen to things on planes without having the volume through the roof) and they come with three different size buds so you can pick ones that fit well. I buy 2-3 pairs at a time so that when I lose them I have another already.

    5. Aubergine Dreams*

      Memory foam earbuds. I swear, they saved me. I have the same problem as you and my ears hurt all the time, even with the smallest earbuds. Once I got memory foam ones, my ears are totally fine! Look on Amazon.

    6. Audiophile*

      I bought the Marshall Mode earbuds, thought they’re not true noise canceling headphones, I did notice that they blocked out a lot of noise.

  136. feminazgul*

    Hi folks – I submitted a request to join the AAM LinkedIn group, but either I’m blind or there’s no way to send a message to confirm I’ve commented here/know about AAM. Anyone know of a way to message someone involved?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ack, this is on me. It was being run by former regular commenter Jamie but then her life got in the way and I offered to take it over, but I’m terrible at remembering to check it. I’ll do it right now.

      1. feminazgul*

        Woo, thanks Alison! Just glad I can finally do something with LinkedIn that feels useful :)

  137. Dallas Strong*

    When does a “survival” job become a “real” job?
    I was already interviewing for other opportunities when I was let go from a Teapot sales rep position 3 months ago (a poorly run company that closed operations…it was a step down for me but was presented as an opportnity…that’s a whole different discussion).
    After 2 months and getting restless, I took another teapot sales rep position at a different company, I’m still applying, but my current role isn’t on my resume, as I’ve been there barely 30 days. Should I list it on my resume anyway?
    I am looking for a higher-ranking position (marketing teapot brands) similar to my role 2 years ago…lots of puzzle pieces here. Anybody have any advice?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Don’t list the current job. It will raise too many questions about why you’re currently searching.

      Without knowing details of your job search, my best advice is to read through Alison’s cover letter section and write amazing cover letters that highlight your skills.

  138. Meeps*

    Regular reader, but going anon for this.

    I am heartbroken. I just found out that my boss and her boss had/are still having(?) an affair. There is undeniable proof. I really respected them both before I found out, and now I just don’t know how to feel. There’s no real question here, I’m just very sad and confused. I tend to look at cheating as very black and white, and I am so torn right now. I have always defended them against rumors, but deep down I really knew it was probably true, but I always stood up for them. Now I just feel dumb and naive.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Honestly, the best thing you can do is just ignore it and try not to think about it. It’s pretty much inevitable that people apply their own judgements to others’ actions, but really you just don’t know their lives. That doesn’t make it okay, but it does mean you need to stop looking at it as black and white – they aren’t suddenly bad bosses because of their personal choices.

      Either way, when people talk about it now, the best thing you can do is walk away and say nothing. Pretend you know nothing and I guarantee you’ll be happier for it.

    2. Anon for this one*

      Ugh ugh ugh. A few years ago I was in a similar situation. (In this case it was my boss and a friend that worked in a different department; I introduced them because she really needed a good professional mentor. Didn’t exactly turn out that way!) I understand exactly how you are feeling. Dumb and naive are exactly how I felt, too. (You aren’t, by the way, and neither was I. It’s not dumb and naive to believe that two people who you hold in high regard professionally are good people deserving of that regard, when they are in actuality making incredibly poor decisions in their personal lives.)

      By the time I found out Boss was no longer my boss, so it was easy enough to distance myself from the situation, which made it easier for me to process as I could be angry with them both without actually having to see them every day in a professional capacity. What I will say is, years later, it’s a little easier for me to see it in a different light – what they did (both of them) was despicable (for additional reasons I won’t bother addressing, as the cheating is bad enough), but they are human and life is messy.

    3. Joanna*

      You’re not dumb or naive. Acting in good faith and assuming the best of people unless you have strong evidence you should do otherwise is proper, mature behaviour. Sadly sometimes that gets taken advantage of, but it’s them that should be feeling bad, not you.

  139. Anon Moose*

    A little late but I hope I get some comments.

    I’m going to be leaving my job in three weeks and going to grad school. As we weren’t able to hire someone to overlap with me, my boss asked me to write a status memo for the next person. However, I wanted to ask the AAM community- what are helpful things to include in such a memo/ booklet?

    1. JOTeepe*

      Think about some of your day to day tasks and write down the processes you use to complete these tasks. Go through your current work and see what can be wrapped up in 3 weeks and what can’t; for the things that can’t, make sure your files are in good order so someone unfamiliar can pick them up easily. Print out applicable emails for these files, too, so there’s a paper trail.

      I was fortunate that, in my previous role, I DID have someone overlapping during my notice period (a lower level staff member on another team was promoted to my position, and she shadowed me until I left). However, I actually did everything very similarly with her as I would have done if I hadn’t had that.

      Also – if possible, try not to start anything new that either can’t be finished or will interfere with you wrapping up your current work. The more you have to wrap up or explain midstream the more complicated it gets.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Link to any documents that might be helpful later, even if they’re accessible through other methods. Sometimes it helps to put those documents in context of your daily tasks. For example: If you need to cater lunch, email Chocolate Teapot Manager at Sugar Inc (Use the contact form found in the Google Drive, Linked Here)

    3. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      I just put together a massive document for the next person who has my job, since there was no overlap possibility.

      I included basic information about the office (where the kitchen is, where office supplies are, where the back entrance is), basic information about the software we use and the correct methods of procedures in exhaustive detail, a sample schedule for daily/weekly tasks, a list of all the other companies (you might include departments) you deal with regularly WITH CONTACT NAMES, absolutely forbidden procedures, key important details that may slip through the cracks, and a general overview of the annual schedule (what events happen each month, basically).

    4. Joanna*

      – Any passwords to work programs/sites that only you know and how any building security systems work.
      – Any major (or difficult) suppliers, customers or clients your replacement should be aware of.
      – Additional tasks you’ve taken on that aren’t part of your main role
      – Any upcoming deadlines or events.
      – Where to find templates or good examples of past work so they can get an idea of how your business likes things to be done.

  140. Dirtperson*

    feeling like literal dirt today. Said a poorly phrased thing in earshot of a customer and my manager gave me heck over it after… I already felt bad, and told manager I knew I’d done wrong, but manager still went on about the importance of language and being nicer to customers and such.

    it has been a long and stressful week, and the US shootings have done nothing to help that, on top of a myriad of personal stressors. yeah I said a stupid thing, but I don’t need extra beating up, I do enough of that on my own

    1. Menacia*

      I think everyone is feeling awful over the tragedies that have occurred in the news, I know it’s affected me and my disposition, as well as everyone around me. Even though your manager was not understanding, don’t beat yourself up. Sometimes we do or say things we normally would not because our stress levels are completely out of the norm and we are in less control of ourselves. This does not give license to people to take out their frustrations on others, and as long as you can reel yourself back in, you can cut yourself some slack. If the pattern continues, you may want to talk to someone about how to manage your stress so it does not affect your working (and personal) relationships.

    2. motherofdragons*

      Fellow self-harsher, here. The struggle is real. And yes, this week has been hellish, I am definitely feeling its impact on my emotions and stress level. Internet fist bump of solidarity.

      I really hope you can find a way to cut yourself some slack. Yeah, you made a misstep. And, it’s a manager’s job to let you know that (sucky as it feels!). Sounds like they could have gone more gently since you freely acknowledged your wrong, but anyway. Turns out you are human and not a perfect robot so, mistakes are going to happen! Feeling bad about it probably means you won’t do it again, so there’s a silver lining, but apart from telling yourself “Welp, that really sucked, and I will be more careful with how I phrase things in the future,” there is really no need to continue being hard on yourself. You are not a dirtperson! You are a person who is good enough to know when they screwed up and has the courage to own it and work on not doing it again. That’s pretty great, actually. Hang in there.

    3. Joanna*

      Don’t beat yourself up too much over saying something poorly phrased. Everyone makes bad wording choices occasionally and it will soon be forgotten by the customer and other staff.

  141. De Minimis*

    Non-profit people…anyone know anything about section 504 documentation? We just got a grant where we’re supposed to keep a 504 plan, and I’m not sure anyone knows exactly how to proceed. We don’t really work with the general public all that much [our mission is providing professional development to educators], so I’m not sure what we need to be doing.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Since I didn’t know what you were referring to, I did a quick Google search and the first thing that popped up said a:

      “504 Plan is a plan developed to ensure that a child who has a disability identified under the law and is attending an elementary or secondary educational institution receives accommodations that will ensure their academic success and access to the learning environment.”

      It seems to be similar to an Individualized Education Plan (IEP) and it would seem that your organization would not need to actually have one. Most of the information I’ve seen on the internet seems to be geared to helping students in grade and highschools.

      Do any of the educators you provide professional development to have disabilities and need accommodation from you in order to receive that professional development? You might need to provide those accommodations, or it could be that you are already doing so, but you need to document it.

      Are the people who made the grant to you able to offer any more specific information? I would ask them first.

      Here’s a link to the U.S. Department of Education website, but you probably already have that information and it doesn’t seem very helpful for your situation.

      http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.htmlns

    2. Mimmy*

      Huh. Section 504 only applies to entities receiving federal funding (e.g. public schools, most colleges & universities). I’m not sure why a nonprofit would be required to develop a 504 plan unless this is a federal grant.

      1. The Devil's Advocate*

        In De Minimis situation developing a 504 plan certainly seems inappropriate and unnecessary. The grant might be federal. (Or a state or other regional government agency.)

        I have run into many situations where corporate donors will include a seemingly irrelevent and inappropriate requirement (such as developing a 504 plan) and because its their money they can make whatever rules they want. Although the rules do not seem appropriate to De Minimis’ situation they might be appropriate and desireable if the same organization also provides grants to gradeschools and highschools, or even to colleges.

        But the issue is still what does DeMinimis have to do to either comply with the rule or get it waived.

        1. De Minimis*

          Yes, I should have specified, we receive federal grants, though this is an agency that is new for us. The regulations seem designed more to ensure that programs, performances, and events are accessible. For us that isn’t generally a big issue [our events are usually held at outside locations like hotels where I’d think the venue would already have to be complying with accessibility law.

          It sounds like we’re supposed to have a plan on file in case we are ever asked for it as part of an audit, but it looks like a lot of documentation where the answer to most things would be “no.”

  142. louise*

    I was let go today. I’d been job searching and was planning to give notice at the end of the month because of the toll it was taking on my mental health, but it stinks not to go out on my own terms. I needed the next few weeks to build up a little more savings, but since it went down this way, at least I should qualify for unemployment.

    When I asked them to clarify the reason, I was told they see it as a department reorganization and that they needed more of an assistant while my skills were higher level. That’s bullshit, of course, but I’ll roll with it in future interviews. They also said I’ll get a positive reference. It doesn’t make up for all the things they told me I did wrong, but I’ll take it.

    1. LQ*

      Definitely look at this as best you can, a good reference, unemployment (apply right away!), and more time to job search and get well. This is hard, but hopefully you’ll find a way to breath easier now that you aren’t dealing with the environment anymore.

      Good luck in your search. And be good to yourself.

    2. Elle*

      I’m really sorry!!! And on a Friday no less–a real no-no. Hoping it’s a blessing in disguise for you!! It is some consolation you were planning on leaving anyway though.

      1. Allison*

        Really? I thought Fridays was the usual day for firings and layoffs. Their logic is it gives the person a whole weekend to cool off and there’s less likelihood of them coming in the very next day still angry. And especially in the summer, if you wait until Friday afternoon there are fewer people around to witness the aftermath when they have to clean out their desk.

        1. De Minimis*

          On the other hand, they also have all weekend to stew about it. The last time I got fired I think it was mid-week. It was good because I had a few business days to file for UI, go to the bank to deposit severance/final paychecks, and try to get my ducks in a row.

          Also, if you think you may be fired, I strongly suggest you get all your stuff together and take it home as soon as you can. It really reduces the awkwardness factor when the day finally comes.

        2. Colette*

          When I worked for a company that ended up doing a lot of layoffs, they did them any day but Friday, so that the people who were laid off could meet with the outplacement service the next day and get started on a job search instead of stewing over the weekend,

    4. SophieChotek*

      I am so sorry!
      Glad you are told you can have a positive reference but the whole situation is bound to be difficult…
      Best of luck in the search.

  143. Qestia*

    My boss invited everyone else on my team for drinks, except me. Some people had conflicts, some left early for other reasons, but he didn’t invite me. He loudly invited other people, who share cube walls with me, but not me.

    We are a finance office and they are celebrating the close – I am more their IT person so am not directly involved in these duties, so maybe that’s why? But sheesh, really?

    Anyway he gave his notice, I liked him till now, but he’s gone in two weeks, and I’m feeling okay with that!

    2. Elle*

      That’s the worst. Mine invited all the guys down to his lake house for the weekend. ‘Cept I’m the only one who’s not a guy. So I wasn’t invited. Not that I would have gone, but it would have been nice to have been asked, or at least offered some sort of explanation, ya know? Well, like leatherwings said, good riddance to your boss!

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I’m regularly ignored when people in the office ask around for happy hours, lunches, Starbucks runs, etc. I commiserate with you!

      1. Dee Dee*

        Me too.. maybe we’re better off being left out of the nonsense..the compmaining.

    4. CMT*

      The only coworker in my office less senior than I am got a promotion and our supervisor went around saying she had asked all the rest of us if we wanted it and we’d all said no. True for the other two more senior people in my office. But she never once discussed it with me. I’m definitely bitter about it, and it’s part of the fuel for my job search.

    5. not me*

      I was at a meeting when one of my colleagues started talking about something and stated that he wasn’t sure if he should be speaking about it since I ‘was not at the meeting’. I was sitting right across from him as he said that. Once I let him know I was there he spoke about his topic which had nothing to do with me. He is a great guy and a good coworker so it just puzzled me. Sometimes we all have moments. Sometimes letting one off things go is a good strategy for sanity. Patterns and big projects, on the other hand , are different.

  144. Kay*

    A coworker that I hit BEC stage with nine months ago gave her notice this week. On the one hand: she was virtually impossible to work with, genuinely annoying (not just to me, who had reached my limit), and the job was increasingly a bad fit for her. (She flat out refused to become at all familiar with new software that we are implementing that is crucial to her role.)

    On the other hand, I know she was essentially forced out when her hours were cut and I feel guilty about being so quietly pleased at the situation.

    I know that this, too, shall pass but I have another week of dodging her (my MO long before she gave notice) and I now feel doubly guilty.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Don’t feel guilty about being kinda happy about that- sometimes someone gets in their own way. It sounds like the other bad fit things were way more important to her quitting than anything that was done to her purposefully.

  145. Allison*

    Gotta grumble.

    In my line of work I send E-MAILS to passive candidates for open positions at my company. If the candidate shows interest I schedule them for a phone screen with someone who isn’t me. It used to be that my e-mails would specify that if they were interested I would put them through to the recruiter, but the recruiter told me to take that part out. So now, sometimes I’ll e-mail a candidate and instead of replying to the e-mail, they call me directly for their phone interview, and then they’re disappointed when I tell them I need to schedule them for a call with the right person.

    IMO, when someone e-mails you, and they don’t request that you respond by calling them, it’s best to respond via e-mail. To me, it’s fair to assume that’s how they want to communicate with you until/unless they tell you otherwise. If I wanted to be the one getting on the phone with the candidates as the first voice they hear, I would have become a recruiter, but I hate being on the phone, so I stick with sourcing, and so far I’ve been able to avoid jobs that have me cold calling and phone screening people. And it would never occur to me to respond to an e-mail by phone unless the sender told me to call them.

    Am I wrong to think people who respond to e-mails with a phone call is going rogue, or is that actually pretty normal? Should I take my phone number out of my e-mail signature?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Can you just add a line that says “Please reply to this email if you’re interested in scheduling a phone interview?” Then people who might call are people who can’t follow directions, which is valuable information.

      It seems like a little clarity could clean up a lot of this, rather than expecting people to follow unwritten norms. When people are job searching, they get eager and if there aren’t clear instructions it makes sense that they’ll take the most expedient route to get in touch with you.

      And yeah, take your phone number out of the signature.

      1. LQ*

        Here here to not expecting people to follow unwritten rules. A little clarity will help you AND the job seeker. (Which will make you better at your job.)

        Tell them what you want.

    2. Chaordic One*

      The advice offered by Leatherwings, LQ, and CMT is good.

      You really need to spell out what you want and clarify how you want them to respond if they are interested. The response offered by Leatherwings is excellent.

  146. NervousNancy*

    I have to give my notice on Monday and I’m terrified. My boss has been out of the office on vacation and I know he’s coming back to a lot of projects which have hit the fan while he’s been gone. I feel so guilty for doing it on a day when I know he’s going to be stressed, but I need to notify him as soon as possible. I’m also terrified that I’m so terrified that I’m just going to start crying when I notify him. At my last job, I worked at a super small business for a pair of tyrants who exploded when I gave my three weeks notice (the one boss said that I “wasn’t an f***ing secretary” and I should have given them more than three weeks). The conversation lasted 6 hours. So, needless to say I’m a little scarred! Anyone have any tips on how to control your tears? Or any wacky stories to help calm my nerves??

    1. Colette*

      Expect your boss to react professionally, and strive to do the same. This isn’t a personal decision, and shouldn’t be taken as one. Acknowledge that it’s not great timing, then be matter of fact.

      And if he tries to drag you into a six hour (!) conversation, get up and leave. What’s he going to do – fire you?

    2. Jaguar*

      Well, your previous employer sounds even worse than my “wacky story,” but I worked for four months at the most dysfunctional place I’ve ever seen (micromanaging, complaining about people being out sick, insulting everyone when they were thought to be out of earshot – just about every manipulative and horrid thing you can think of). Eventually, after being irritated by a rapid fire of things on a Monday (I can’t remember all of them, but one was a chewing out because I didn’t put a salutation on an e-mail to a client, which shows you how small and petty they were), I let my misery stew until I started a job search I wasn’t intending that Thursday. Friday I got a phone call. Saturday I interviewed and was offered the job on the spot. So one week from my jumping off point, I had to tell my two paranoid and manipulative managers I was quitting.

      Manager 1: How dare you be looking for work while working here! What if we offered you more money? How dare you look for work after we trained you how to work here! Is there anything we can do to keep you here? You need to tell your new employer that we need four weeks notice! [I did not oblige that request]

      Manager 2 (the next day): This is a complete betrayal of trust! What if we gave you more responsibility over such and such? You told us you were happy here so your word means nothing! Let’s have a calm discussion about this tomorrow [I’m perfectly calm, actually]. You know the new place is just going to fire you when they don’t need you any more, right? [what the fuck!?]

      I was able to get through it because I knew I was making the right decision and this was just some shit I had to endure for the time being. I don’t like confrontation, but aside from dealing with unpleasant people, I knew it was temporary, I was in control, and I was making the right decision, the situation didn’t even rattle me that much. Maybe you’re lacking some confidence that you should have in your decision to quit?

    3. Cruciatus*

      I know how you feel. When I had to give notice last July (whoa! time flies!) I was a wreck. It was actually my first time doing so. I actually had a good rapport with my boss (the director). But he was constantly praising me (overly so, I think!) to me, to my colleagues, etc. I was so worried to tell him I was leaving. I’m not really sure why now…I even told the assistant director ahead of time just so she knew what to expect. I asked if she would come in with me when I did it. My boss started to say “Oh fuuuc…” and stopped himself and then shook my hand and wished me well and has told me repeatedly he’ll give me a great reference when I need it. Leaving is a normal business function! People leave! If you enjoyed it there, you could mention that. Maybe that’ll help you take the edge off of it for you and your boss. And you’re not leaving right that second (I assume) so you’ll have time to get everything in order. Good luck! Mine was not as bad as I had built it up in my head.

      1. NervousNancy*

        It’s sounds like your boss really took the high road! That’s so wonderful.

        What is the protocol for telling other co-workers before your direct manager? The reason I’m leaving this job is because I’m moving out of state. It’s a huge life event for me and I’m very close to some colleagues that also report to the same boss (hang out regularly, attended the ones wedding). I want to give two of them a head’s up (I’m actually hanging out with the one over the weekend), but I’m worried that my boss will flip if she finds out she was the third to know. Is there any reason I should keep a tight lip? I trust these two not to blab…

        1. Jaguar*

          I don’t think it’s unprofessional to let friends know first. That’s not to say that your boss won’t see it the same way, but you’re the best one the judge that. It’s not reasonable for your boss to dictate how, when, and to who you communication personal decisions.

          1. NervousNancy*

            Thank you! That’s a great point.

            And holy crap your last employer sounds terrible. What is up with the two-against-one scenario? I don’t expect my current boss to be as terrible as my last bosses (knock on wood), but it doesnt make it any less stressful. I remember when I first told my last bosses I was giving my three weeks notice the one said “You cannot.” WTF!? I imagine some day I’ll be able to look back on that day and laugh, but I’m not there quite yet…

            1. Jaguar*

              It wasn’t really two on one. The second manager (a co-owner) was only in the office about twice a week on average as he mostly worked in the field, while the immediate one worked full time in the office. So the first one I gave notice to (and dealt with his crap) and then the second one gave me his crap the first time he was in the office.

    4. burnout*

      Remember that YOU are the captain of your own ship. You have no reason to be terrified – if they don’t respond professionally, you can walk out the door right then. It is a courtesy to give notice, not a requirement.

      1. NervousNancy*

        Thank you!! In this next situation I’ll be giving three months notice, so hopefully that will soften the blow. Blah. I wish I could pay someone to do it for me…

  147. Anxa*

    I was supposed to work on job apps today, but:
    -I only have a tablet available today; my SO has our power charger for the laptops for the week while he’s out of town
    -It’s really, really hot out and I don’t feel like walking to the library in case I can’t focus when I get there (I’ve been having increased focus issues this month…have a dr appt for later in the month) and have to turn around again
    -There’s no free parking today and there will be tomorrow, so I can do my stuff tomorrow.

    So….I’m giving myself a break and browsing AAM and thinking more long term and getting around to hobbies. I picked up my knitting needles for the first time this week in over a year!

    I’m playing “hooky” from being responsible, and I think it’s probably going to be a good thing for my job search in the end.

    2. Bigglesworth*

      Sometimes taking a mental health day from job hunting boosts your overall productivity. :)

  148. SL #2*

    In other happy news, I helped a graduate student group host and facilitate their meeting today, and they brought me a lovely potted plant as a gift. I have a green thumb, so this is the best gift!

  149. Bigglesworth*

    Currently singing “Another One Bites the Dust”. I’ve been at my current workplace for a little over a year and today another one of my colleagues put in her 2 weeks. I’m happy for her, but she’s the 15th person to resign since I started last June. :/ I’m already looking, but everyone is dropping like flies right now and it’s really putting the pressure on the rest of us.

    1. animaniactoo*

      As long as you haven’t um, been comparing the last phone directory list with the current one and using a highlighter to call out the drops and adds and share with your most friendly coworker in back of you, you haven’t gone overboard yet…

  150. Colleen*

    My college-aged son had an interview with a prestigious insurance company (not an agency, the company itself) yesterday and did well. They asked him to complete a project and return for a second interview in a week. The project? Compile 100 names, addresses and phone numbers of people who could be sold financial services by the insurance company.

    I am flabbergasted. This seems to me like work product which, I thought (from reading AAM), was not allowed to be requested from applicants. I am not sure what advice to give him. I mean, he really wants intern there, but I believe he shouldn’t allow them to keep his work product because (I am assuming here) they will use it to attempt to sell insurance to people whose names, addresses and phone numbers he gave to them.

    I am baffled. Any suggestions or insights?

    1. JennyFair*

      Sounds fishy to me. Have you googled the name of the company and something like ‘hiring practices’ to see if there’s chatter about it?

    2. CAA*

      I just googled this and found the practice associated with WoodmenLife, Western & Southern Life, and Merrill Lynch. Apparently these companies use it to make sure you’ll bring a prospect base with you if they hire you.

      I assume your son is applying for a highly commissioned cold calling sales position where he has to generate his own prospects? Is that what he really wants to do? Does he fully understand the pay structure for this position? If this is what he wants, and he can assemble the list, then he should show it to the recruiter, but not give it to him. He won’t succeed in this kind of sales position if he gives away his prospects.

      Also, I’d guess that the most likely prospects he knows are your friends. How pissed off are they going to be if they start getting these calls? You might want to talk to him about that as he’s putting his list together.

      1. Colleen*

        OK. Thanks. I appreciate your work on my behalf. I will sit down and talk with him about this. He is not a salesman, we have established that. He is just not good at it, so I would be surprised if he knowingly applied for such a job. Thanks, too, for your insight.

    3. Joanna*

      There seems to be some troubling privacy implications here regarding handing over the contact information of people he knows without their consent

  151. Vulcan social worker*

    I just got an email about a position for which I have an interview scheduled for next week. It’s a final-round interview, and I was given a date and time a few days ago and asked if it worked for me. Just now I got more details about accessing the building, but that email was addressed “Dear Applicant,” and my email address was in the bcc: instead of directly to me. That’s how the first emails to set up the phone screens were, while the emails since then have been personal to me, not bcc:

    It’s possible that the bcc: is because this interview will be with multiple interviewers and not just with the would-be manager, but I’m really concerned that however many finalists there are are going to all be interviewed together. I know I am qualified for this position, but I’m still not thrilled about the idea. Has anyone been through this before? Any suggestions on how to approach this interview if this is the case? Beyond the regular preparation, and hoping like crazy all weekend that the bcc: is just because there will be other interviewers coming who work in a different location than where the hiring manager is located?

    Thanks to anyone still reading after work hours.

    1. Graciosa*

      I would have guessed that generic information like this (not the date and time, but the building access information) would be sent out to all applicants using bcc to conceal the number and identity of other applicants still in the running.

      Bcc for interviewers of information about how to get in the building doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

      1. Vulcan social worker*

        Other than the hiring manager, the other interviewers may not otherwise visit the place where the interview is to take place. The person who gets the position needs to be able to work with a team from another organization so people from that organization will be on the interviewing panel. The interview will take place at the hiring manager’s (and prospective new employee’s) place of employment, though.

        But sending out a date and time to bcc:ed applicants seems unusual, unless everyone was given the same time and will be called in one at a time and wait in the hall while the others take place. I had a doctor like that once. She schedule eight patients for 1 pm, and the nurse would call them back one at a time and you could wait up to two hours to see the doctor. I discovered that in the waiting room on my third visit when I started talking to other patients and we all found that we had the same appointment time.

    2. CAA*

      Did this latest email refer to your specific interview date and time? If not, it’s probably just be the generic instructions that were sent to everyone they are meeting with over however many days they are interviewing.

      It’s very unlikely that this will be a group interview with other candidates. It’s just not normal to do that for a professional position, much less in the final round; and if the company does something so completely outside the norm, would you really want to work there?

      If they do conduct a group interview, then you really only have two choices: stay and participate, or leave. The fact that you have time to think about this in advance gives you more control and lets you have a plan in mind in case you have to use it.

      1. Vulcan social worker*

        Yes. It was addressed “Dear Applicant” but my address was in the bcc: field. It had a specific date and time.

        I’m hoping people have advice for how to handle the interview if this is indeed what they are doing, unless I really am interpreting this information wrong, as opposed to whether this is where I want to work.

        1. CAA*

          That is weird. I’m not sure what you mean by “handle the interview” though. If there are multiple candidates being interviewed at the same time and you choose to participate in this type of interview, then you just answer questions as they are asked of you. If they’re having everyone answer the same questions in a round-robin, this should be controlled by the interviewer so everyone gets a chance to give the first answer to something. When you are not first, try to say something that hasn’t already been said or elaborate on a point that was made by another candidate.

          1. Vulcan social worker*

            Well, knowing that it’s not going to be a free-for-all like in a classroom is good. I tend not to be the fastest to speak.

        2. vpc*

          I actually did do a group interview once; it was for a very specific type of position and had three hour-long parts. One was a 2:1 interview with two interviewers and me, and four other candidates were being interviewed by other teams of interviewers at the same time. The second was a proctored writing sample test with each of the five of us working in our own borrowed cubicle. The third part was the group interview, where the interviewers presented our group of five with a scenario and asked us to nominate a spokesperson and present a solution at the end of the hour (the scenario was the same as the proctored writing sample, so each of us already had our own solution to bring to the group for discussion). The interviewers stayed in the room but were sitting in a corner, not at the conference table with the rest of us. The five candidates had never met each other before that afternoon; once we got past five minutes of introductory awkwardness, our minds took over, and the discussion was really active.

          A few years later, I participated in this process from the other side. As an interviewer, we weren’t looking for who spoke up first, or who spoke up the most, in the group setting. We were looking for three things: a) who tried to build consensus among the group; b) whose idea actually got presented; c) what was the range/scope of ideas presented and where did they come from? (i.e. did all of the possible solutions/refinements come from a single person, or did everyone contribute one or more quality ideas?)

          1. Vulcan social worker*

            This is really helpful. I’m not assuming an interview like yours, but considering this as a possibility actually makes me feel better. While I’m not one to blurt out answers first so the idea of having to be the first to shout out the best answer worried me, if I had to work with other candidates and interviewers were looking for the things you mention, I would probably do well. In groups I tend to lead but not be domineering.

            If anyone else has perspectives from either side, I would love to hear them. Thanks again.

        3. Observer*

          Someone could have been doing a mail merge for this. Is the time and date the only thing that is specific to you, in the email?

    3. Kalli*

      It sounds like they sent the email to all the finalists, since it only contained generic information everyone would need to know – how to get into the building, nothing about your time or anything specific to you. I wouldn’t worry about it, especially since the personal details were hammered out with you before.. Someone probably just took a shortcut in how they let everyone know how to get into the building.

      If they didn’t tell you before, you _could_ email them back and ask who will be in the interview, since that should really have been made clear in the phone call and it’s a valid thing to be asking for clarification on, but otherwise I wouldn’t approach it any differently.

      1. Vulcan social worker*

        The date and time were in the email.

        I have not been given names of people, just people from Company.

    4. CMT*

      I think you’re reading too much into this. There’s any number of reasons why they BCC’d you, and spending all this time and energy trying to figure it out isn’t going to do you any good.

      1. Vulcan social worker*

        Thank you for this answer. My partner is sitting here trying to convince me of this as well.

  152. Longtime lurker*

    Etiquette for contacting external professionals (hired by your boss for a project) about a speaking engagement?

    I’m currently working part-time as a student assistant (mostly taking notes in meetings, and providing some feedback/revisions on various documents). Recently I’ve been attached to a project that’s being handled by a team from an external firm (boss is their client).
    At the moment I’m also a member of a professional organization that holds an annual event with invited industry speakers. This team’s work is relevant to the event’s focus, so I’m wanting to ask if they’d like to be speakers at the event (which isn’t until next spring, but things need to be planned in advance).

    Are there any specific etiquette issues to keep in mind before reaching out about something like this? For example, would it be prudent to run this by my boss?
    I don’t believe this would constitute a conflict of interest and/or time – the schedules shouldn’t overlap at all, and any event-related things wouldn’t demand the same resources that they’re using for this project.
    (Also, if it helps at all, I did mention the idea to one of the team members, and they said that some of them have done something similar in the past.)

    Not sure if I’m overthinking this, but I can’t help but feel that I’m not taking something(s) into consideration — so I wanted to ask a reputable community before moving forward.

    To anyone who’s still reading, thanks in advance for any of your thoughts!

    1. periwinkle*

      You might be overthinking this. If the professional organization is not controlled or closely affiliated with your employer, it’s not a conflict of interest.

      If you want to be more hands off or are concerned about how to approach the team to be a speaker, you could pitch the idea to the person/team that runs the annual event. “I’ve been working with a team from Westeros Consulting and think that what they’re doing would be relevant to our membership. [brief explanation of relevance] They’ve presented at other events and might be interested in speaking at our event. If you’re interested I can give you their contact info.”

      As someone who has to source speakers for events now and then, I appreciate getting good leads from other members!

      1. Longtime lurker*

        This makes sense — thanks for clarifying!
        It’ll probably be best to run this by the main event planners, before contacting the team with any more details. Thanks again for the suggestion!

  153. Evie*

    Hi all!
    The husband of a friend of mine is very close to finishing his training to be an Anglican minister. He’s about to polish up his CV/resume, and my friend and I were wondering if there’s anything you need to do differently with religious based/ministerial type jobs compared to more regular jobs?

    Anyone have any experience here?
    Thanks in advance!

    1. Joanna*

      I’ve only applied for a few jobs in religious organisations, but my impression was that volunteer experience tends to be more highly valued than it is in the corporate world.

  154. Anxa*

    I’ve been very blessed in that I’ve never had a chronic pain issue before.

    I have had itch before (sounds silly, but eczema itch can be maddening when it flares up) and have always been restless about sitting at a desk.

    I can never just get comfortable; I hate sitting at desks. I sometimes dream of having a few thousand dollars and setting up the more ergonomic desk / chair / computer set up known to man.

    Anyway, while I’ve never felt comfortable, the past few weeks I really, really haven’t been able to feel comfortable. At work part of this is due to always being cold, but now I”m also in a very slight pain.

    Does anyone have any tips on how to cut through the fog of the restlessness and distraction? The best way to explain is that I’m not in pain so much, but that I always just want to lay down to rest my neck.

    I think I have delayed whiplash from a fender bender but it will be at least another week until my doctors appointment (on the plus side, the neurological symptoms have gotten way better, but my productivity is still stalled)

    1. Dee Dee*

      I recently had a similar neck injury. The only thing that helped me was ice, Advil and physical therapy. The pt stretched my shoulders and neck. Sitting at a desk all day actually aggravated my injury.

    2. Vulcan social worker*

      I have neck pain sometimes. I think ice feels better on it, but my doctor says to use heat when it flares up.

      Depending on how your set-up is, elevating your feet could also be helpful for your desk situation. Yay for books that you’ll never read again. Also, is your monitor at the right height so that you’re not holding your neck at a bad angle? Don’t know if those suggestions are helpful at all, but even if you can’t afford real ergonomic changes, there might be things you can do yourself. Hope you find something that works and that it heals quickly.

      1. Anxa*

        I use a laptop so no, it’s not at the right height. I can maybe try to use the computer lab side of things and talk to staff about directing people who have appointments with me to where I am.

        It’s probably worth switching to computer desks (still not ideal, but better) because our laptops have this terrible habit of reading the slightest touch from the wrists as a directive to highlight your text and make it disappear, which means typing anything up is 30% fixing that….so I put my wrists at a really weird angle.

        Maybe I’ll talk to my boss about seeing if we can borrow an executive chair from another building for a few weeks. I think having a place to lean back could help.

        Not sure what to about working at home, though. We don’t have properly sized furniture and it’s never been in the budget to replace our office chairs. Maybe I’ll need to take the plung and buy one of those neck pillows to use sparingly.

        1. LCL*

          Laptop!? No wonder your neck hurts. See if IT can provide you with a desktop setup and a bigger monitor. Sit farther back, choose a larger text size, and consider reading glasses.

          1. Mreasy*

            If not an external monitor (which I highly recommend if you can get one!), even a laptop stand and an external keyboard/mouse are total game-changers when it comes to desktop ergonomics with laptops. If there are budget issues, the keyboard-plus-stand is less expensive, but if you can have the additional monitor, it’s even better. That’s my desk setup, and it’s made a huge difference.

            1. Anxa*

              I don’t really have a ‘desk job,’ but rather a table. I DO have access to a TV, which isn’t really at the right height either ,but may help temporarily.

              I will ask about the possibility of any keyboards/mice or at least go get a replacement mouse for my own computer and see if I can put my name on it and leave it at work.

              I really can’t do anything that will take up a lot of room on a table, as they are quite small and need to be able to fit a few people around them and have room to spread out.

    3. Joanna*

      This may be unique to me, but I found the thing that seems to be influencing my neck and back pain the most didn’t seem to be the chair/desk/computer set up. Our office has incredibly fancy expensive ergonomic chairs. It seems to be unconsciously tensing up as a result of stress and staying sitting in that tense position for too long. Once I dealt with the causes of stress, my pain started to calm down

    4. Belle diVedremo*

      Depending on the state you’re in you may not need a doctor’s prescription to see a physical therapist. I’d find that out, and if you’re good (eg, in my state I can see a PT 12x before needing a scrip), look for one who does soft tissue manipulation (cranio-sacral, myofascial release, etc) and see how quickly you can get on that person’s table.
      Or you can look for a massage therapist (mine has special certifications in orthopedic massage as well as cranio-sacral therapy) and get an appt while you wait to see your doc, tho your insurance is unlikely to cover it.

      1. Anxa*

        I think the isnurance part will be a nightmare, as it started after (but not until a few days after) an auto accident.

        1. Belle diVedremo*

          Follow up with a doc will matter more, in that case, as the doc could decide whether or not the issue was caused by the accident.
          One thing I heard, after being in what we thought was a minor accident, is that at slow speeds the human body takes the brunt of the impact, at high speeds the car body does. So it can take a few days for you to notice the impact in your body.
          If you can see a PT (because you’ll want that license involved for insurance) while waiting to see your doc, and take the PT’s comments/eval with you to the doc that could help.
          I encourage you to get treatment and to continue it; thinking I was all set after a couple treatments meant that a few months later things started freezing up. Took longer (& cost more) to unlock them than if I’d stayed with treatment or had touch ups for another month or two.
          Good luck.

  155. Anxa*

    Super random:

    I’m applying to jobs at a huge state university. Their job search page actually has a FAQ that pretty much says “Don’t call about finding out who is hiring, we don’t care about how you address your cover letter”

    I thought that was awesome. No need to stress that they’d be one of those places that cares about that.

    1. Joanna*

      That’s a great thing coming from any business but especially from universities which tend to be frustrating places to apply to

    2. Audiophile*

      That is cool.

      I remember when I used to stress about addressing my resume to a person and doing research every time I was submitting an application. I finally broke away from “Dear Sir or Madam” and changed it to “Dear Hiring Manager”. I regularly get compliments on my cover letters.

  156. Kate H*

    Anyone have any advice on summoning the guts to start a job hunt?

    I’m currently stuck in two bad work situations but I’m finding it hard to break away from “the devil I know.” The first situation is a part-time job that was only ever meant to be temporary: the hours are short, the commute is long, and my boss just informed me that we’re going to get paid late again (this is the fourth or fifth time this has happened and we get paid *monthly*). The second situation is volunteering with a non-profit. It’s so dysfunctional that I think about writing in to AAM at least once a week, whether to ask for advice or just submit the head of the organization for Worst Boss I’m not even sure. I’ve been with both of them since the start of the year and it’s definitely time for me to move on, but just the idea of starting another job hunt makes me feel overwhelmed.

    1. Joanna*

      It probably will vary depending on your personality. Gretchen Rubin’s book on habits (Better Than Before) might be useful in working out what kind of strategies will work for you to get a job hunting habit going.

      For me last time I got overwhelmed about starting job hunting, the key was to start with very small steps. If I’d told myself I needed to do 20 applications this month, I would have freaked out. Instead, I had to tell myself something like “today I will just focus on making sure my resume properly reflects my last role and for the moment not worry about anything else.” Once I had done the one small task done, I often had the momentum to pick up whatever the next small task was.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Yes, start by setting up a resume. Then set up a list of references with their contact information.

      Start working your network contacts. Friends, former co-workers who have left. Fellow students from when you went to school. Your school’s employment resources, even if you’ve graduated a long time ago. Then start doing some searching in the usual places on the internet, and also at places where you think you might want to work and that might have openings.

      Alison has a ton of worthwhile resume, application and cover letter recommendations on this website, and then a lot of good advice about how to present yourself and conduct yourself when you get the interview.

      The one thing that a lot of advice columns don’t mention is that when filling out applications they’ll ask for names of previous employers and supervisors, contact information for them, and previous rates of pay. I always provide it, but it’s a pain pulling it all together. Once you do, you might want to keep the information handy, like in a word document in a folder on your computer or in thumb drive or something.

      Or find a job to apply for first, then do your resume, cover letter and application.

      Or start working your network first.

      Just apply for something. Then apply for something else. And after you get an interview, apply for something else.

    3. Schmitt*

      Small steps and don’t stress. Fix up your resume; assemble your references; look at jobs that interest you without committing yourself to applying; make a job hunt spreadsheet; and finally bite the bullet. I had been ready to leave my job for more than a year – I kept talking about it to my friends and eventually had to say to myself, “Self, if you don’t move towards the goal you’ll never get there” and then spent a couple months getting my resume together (probably not a problem for you but I’d been at my job for nine years!) before applying.

      As it happens, I wanted to be picky about my next job and was anticipating a long process with multiple companies, but the first interview I had was smashing – I start in August. Wishing you the same luck!

    4. Graciosa*

      I think the small steps advice you’ve received is good, but I wanted to flag you a bit about the late payment issue. If this is the fourth or fifth time this has happened, your company may be having financial difficulties rather than just being badly managed. When the cash flow issues are bad enough that it affects payroll (which is usually the last thing to go) the problem is very, very serious.

      I would assume – unless you yourself are the CFO and know everything there is to know about the company’s finances – that they may have to file bankruptcy and close their doors at any time. If this happens, you could just show up one day and find yourself locked out of the office. If you have personal property there, recovering it would be a lengthy process (think many weeks to months) and you should not assume you will ever again be able to get access to any personal information stored on your work computer (these are clearly company property, and generally sold – hopefully, but not always, after being wiped).

      I would suggest that you make sure this doesn’t happen to you. Don’t keep anything in the office of your own property that it would upset you to lose (for example, I don’t care about losing tissues or copies of photos as long as I have the originals safely elsewhere). Make sure that you have any electronic files that are legitimately yours stored somewhere else (for example, your performance reviews or personal photos).

      Also, you might want to check with your state labor board regarding the payroll issues. The company may be violating the requirements for timely pay (every state is a bit different) and it can’t hurt to find out. If there is an issue here, the labor board would absolutely want to know about it. I would probably speak up right away, but you can also wait until you’ve secured another job to raise the issue. The way you’re currently being paid (or *not* paid!) puts you at risk of losing even more money if the company goes under.

      I hope that doesn’t happen, but if it does, you can put yourself in a much better position with a little preparation now.

      Good luck.

      1. Graciosa*

        I just wanted to add that I am very sorry to raise this. I know job hunting is stressful, and I really don’t want to add to it. In this case, it’s just that the consequences of a surprise issue are so bad that I felt I had to mention it.

        This kind of an issue would probably be a good push for me to really get going on a job search, but don’t feel badly if you respond differently. We all do what we can manage. If you can manage to take some small steps so that you’re protected if there is a problem, you’ll be ahead of a lot of other people in that situation. You don’t need to launch an all-out, full-throttle job search now – if the company goes under, you’ll have time to do it then. If small steps in the interim work for you, you’re still making progress.

        Best wishes.

        1. Kate H*

          Thanks. :) If this was happening under normal circumstances, I’d totally agree. But I don’t think the late payments are a financial issue. The thing is, my boss/the owner is extremely naiive when it comes to business matters. She has an accountant cut our checks and then *mail* them to our office. They just simply don’t arrive in time for us to pick them up when we’re supposed to, but they’re always ready in a day or two.

      2. Mander*

        I second this, even though it increases your stress. This happened to my sister and she never did recover all the back pay she was owed. I don’t know if she lost any personal property but I wouldn’t be surprised.

  157. Dee Dee*

    I’m desparate for advice. Is my reply to my new boss (who BTW has zero management experience and a problem with social boundaries) ok? I am employed at a public school district from Sept. through June and usually seek approval to work during the summer for a few weeks. After my boss requested that I work the last 2 weeks of August several months ago I explained for personal reasons (which I specifically spoke about with him) I wouldn’t be able to work then. He made the same verbal request 2 more times since then most recently 2 weeks ago. Each time I repeated the same answer. The last time he asked when I could work and last week I gave him a schedule of the days I will work beginning July 12 …Tuesday through Thursday overthe next 5 weeks. He said ok. But then he emailed me on Tuesday (5 days after he said ok) after “he had a chance to look at my email” and once again made that same request. How is this for a response? I know some people don’t like the phrase “with all due respect” …. can anyone give me an alternative.

    With all due respect, this is something we’ve discussed a few times since you’ve taken over as AD this past winter, most recently a couple of weeks ago. I apologize if I didn’t clearly communicate this to you. As I’ve previously explained, due to personal issues I cannot work the last few weeks of August.

    The tasks I need to complete during the summer to prepare for the fall season are tasks that I was unable to complete before the end of June. I need to complete them in July rather than August.

    This includes:
    *sending the fall charter schedules to contests for the high school and middle school to the bus company. Before I do this, I have to confirm with coaches their departure times for weekend contests, etc.
    *following up with any vendors who have questions regarding purchase orders. Most times I will have to contact the coach to verify information.
    *we need to discuss your plans for varsity awards and if you plan to continue to order from the same vendor or new vendor [[[(this is something new boss won’t have time to do at the end of August since he is a varsity football coach too!!!]]]
    *In addition I usually begin working on winter schedule changes since Section XI’s deadline is in mid-October.

    I put a lot of thought into the best way to schedule my summer hours. I think working 3 days a week over 5 weeks will be best so that I am in the office most weeks during the summer rather than working only 3 straight weeks. The first summer or 2 I worked in athletics I worked the 2nd to last week in August to enter purchase orders and to enter last minute fall schedule changes. Since last year, Section XI imposed a strict deadline for schedule changes; the deadline for this fall was July 8 and all of our purchase orders for equipment have been done for the entire year.

    Just as when I am off during school breaks and there are contests, everything runs smoothly because I confirm our contest and charter schedule with the coaches and with my transportation contact.

    [JOHN DOE], I assure you that, as was the case last summer, my presence is not needed at the end of August which is before the fall season contests are in full swing

    1. Colette*

      Why does he want you to work? Have you asked (or has he said)?

      I’d leave off the “with all due respect” – it doesn’t add anything.

      1. Dee Dee*

        He said because practices start then. But my past experience is that I’m not needed there for practices. I never worked a full day during that one week those 1st couple if years. If I’m not required to work and I’m telling him due to personal issues I can’t work most of August then that should be the end of it.

      2. Dee Dee*

        He said because practices start then. But my past experience is that I’m not needed there for practices. I never worked a full day during that one week those 1st couple if years.

    2. LizB*

      This situation sounds really annoying, but I think you’re putting more into the email than you need to. It comes across as very frustrated. Here’s what I’d go with:

      As I’ve previously explained, due to personal issues I cannot work the last few weeks of August. I apologize if I didn’t clearly communicate this to you.

      The tasks I need to complete during the summer need to be completed in July rather than August, so I will be most effective if I concentrate my hours in July. By working 3 days a week over 5 weeks, I will be in the office most weeks during the summer to address any issues that come up. Over my X years as [Position Title], I’ve experimented with different summer schedules, and have found that this type of schedule is the most effective. I’d be happy to meet with you to explain which tasks I will be working on and the timelines for those tasks.

      Again, I will not be able to work the last two weeks of August, but would be happy to discuss my summer projects with you whenever you have time this week.

      Insert the appropriate number of years and title in the second paragraph. If you’d like to include the bulleted list of tasks, you could do that instead of the “I’d be happy to meet with you…” sentence, but I don’t necessarily think you need to. You could also write up a document with your summer To-Do list and the dates when each task needs to happen (e.g. “Send charter schedules to bus company: confirm with coaches 7/11-7/20, send schedules by 7/25”), and attach it to the email. I don’t think you need to make your boss understand why you don’t need to be there in late August, because the fact of the matter is that you’re not available, but it could be reassuring for him to see what you’ll actually be accomplishing with your proposed schedule.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Yes, this is the advice to follow.

        The thing about “With all due respect…” is that it can be taken as an insult as it can imply that the person being addressed is not worthy of respect. Sadly, that is all to often the truth. However, it is generally better left unsaid.

      2. Dee Dee*

        Thank you both for your responses. I’ll use your suggestions as they do read better. I am very frustrated at having to explain this to him again which is why I wanted to go into detail to stop any further pushing from him. I like the idea of a seperate document with my to do list. I think it’s more about control with him. And it seems either he doesn’t care or he doesn’t pay attention when I speak with him. I always have to follow up with an email to confirm our conversations. Thank you again.

        1. Dee Dee*

          I went to my first day of summer hours and sent my email. He still pushed insisting he wanted me there those weeks for the same reason. Denied that he brought it up before his email on 7/5. Lies lies lies. I am keeping a journal of more incidents besides this. Something definitely wrong with him. I told him once again he cannot. I’m told by a co-worker/unit pres that she will support me if I want to speak with HR.

          1. Dee Dee*

            Meant to say I told him I cannot. BTW I included my to do list at the bottom of the email and he didn’t even bother reading it. Seconds after I clicked the send button he called me after reading the first sentence only.

  158. AdAgencyChick*

    Dangit! I knew there was something I wanted to post today but forgot about it until now. It’s an “is this legal?” question, which I thought I’d never have one of!

    One of the agencies in our network recently announced that they’re having blood drives (a few of them) in the second half of the year. If you donate more than once, you get a free comp day.

    Is this legal, since it effectively establishes a perk that gay or bisexual men are not able to claim? (I realize the answer may vary by state.) Legal or not, I think it’s poorly thought out for that reason.

    1. Joanna*

      I don’t know if it’s technically illegal, but definitely poorly thought-out. It also risks putting people on the spot to have to explain to their co-workers that they have a medical condition that means they can’t donate.

    2. Anxa*

      Whoa, this is NOT. COOL.

      I feel not only is that discriminatory, but it could also out people or make them have to bring up their orientation at work (which is not to say that there’s something scandalous about being gay or bisexual, but since the ban is based on your sexual history on not orientation it seems weird to put people in that position).

      But there are plenty of other medical reasons people couldn’t donate. I have a blood phobia and would not want to do it. I wouldn’t want to disclose that because I have pretty specific triggers and wouldn’t want to not be considered for assignments by people making assumptions about my tolerances.

      If I donate more than once I’m probably going to lose two days of productivity because I would take hours to recover.

      1. Mreasy*

        I’m not sure you’d have to disclose any details, though. Sometimes I can’t donate because I’m anemic, and I would simply decline to participate without explaining, were I unsure. Most people I know are too nervous about needles to donate, and volunteer that information whenever it’s come up conversationally. I think the comp day is problematic for the reasons discussed – many people have medical reasons that mean they can’t donate, most states still have horribly backward policies about gay men participating – but companies encouraging those who can donate without trauma to do so seems like a positive thing overall. Good idea poorly executed in this case, perhaps.

      2. Mreasy*

        Nowhere here is there any indication that the employer is demanding an explanation from those that decline to participate. That would be a problem. The comp day is dicey, but just encouraging employees to donate blood? Doesn’t seem to me an issue in and of itself.

        1. Anxa*

          Yeah, but I think you’d have to disclose not to decline, but to try to get the comp day? Isn’t a comp day like a day off with pay?

          Maybe I misunderstand.

          Maybe they mean the company is going to make it as easy as possible to take off work for a while to donate without worrying about falling behind at work.

    3. Colette*

      Do you have to donate, or can you show up and get rejected? Around here, they count rejected people in participation counts.

    4. Chaordic One*

      There are also some people who do donate blood because they may have an illness or because of religious beliefs.

      This is a really lousy situation.

    5. StillHealing*

      Not just gay or bi men but anyone who has ever been diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Lyme Disease can’t donate. Someone has not thought this through.

      I can’t donate due to both CFS and Lyme having been diagnosed in my past. I’ve seen coworkers receive $5 Starbucks gift cards for donating blood. I don’t feel left out or discriminated against. If it was a free comp day though? Yes, I would feel it was unfair.

    6. Observer*

      Probably not illegal. But, a very bad idea. Also, depending on how this is being managed, there could be a different issue. Others have noted some of the other reasons that someone can’t donate, and there are many others. If people need to explain why they can’t donate that could run afoul of laws that limit how much medical information you are allowed to request of employees.

  159. Ursula*

    I have an employee (entry level, less than 1 year employment so far) who has confided to me that he’s got some sort of issue that sounds to me like a possible untreated mental illness. We have jobs where untreated mental illness is specifically not acceptable and I may be obligated to report it up the management chain (for very good reasons – think people with access to extreme hazardous stuff).

    It came up while I was trying to address ongoing performance issues with him. He’s hinted around it before, but it’s more evident in this discussion. He’s also given me the impression that he knows this is likely an issue of employment if he gets found out.

    I think I need to report it before it becomes a public safety issue, likely resulting in him getting fired. It makes me feel sick to do so; I’m basically persecuting someone who likely has a treatable mental issue and betraying his trust in confiding in me. At the same time, he’s not able to do his job right now, and will pose a hazard if he stays here.

    1. Joanna*

      You’re not persecuting this guy. You’re doing sometime that’s really hard short term but likely in the best interests of everyone long term. Can you imagine how awful you’d feel if you let him keep going and his condition contributed to him making a mistake that injured himself and others?

    2. animaniactoo*

      The thing is, this isn’t persecution. Understand: Persecution would be if he were doing the job fine, but you thought that *someday* he might be a danger, and you want to get him out before them – despite nothing pointing to this possibility except your actual knowledge of his condition. Persecution would be if he were being treated and you were working to get him out rather than trying to work with and accommodate him. Persecution would be if you were standing over him waiting for his every little screwup.

      He has a responsibility to be treated and reduce the effects of his illness on himself and on you (your company) as his employers. Hard as that sometimes is for somebody who is in the grip of their illness. It’s not your job to give him a pass because he could be treated because the crux here is that he is NOT being treated, which is entirely on him.

      If he needs to manage his illness better, that’s something you can address with him (treatment doesn’t always mean medication, but it can – I run regular checks with those around me for the day when I may need to start), as something that he may feel is worth pursuing based on what he has said to you. But as far as your role in the company goes – you’ve said there’s good reason for the rule, and you need to notify on that basis. You can’t sympathize his work situation so much that you ignore that he’s failing on his responsibility to seek treatment despite knowing that not doing so is jeopardizing his job. Recognizing that and acting on it is not persecution.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Let’s say you worked with a diabetic who did not follow his program. You saw the diabetic standing dangerously close to something very hot and you know that he has damange in his feet such that he cannot feel the heat.
      What do you do?
      Verbally warn the person of immediate danger to their feet. Tell them they must take steps to stay safe. If they do not follow up, they are failing to follow safety rules and you move to the next steps.

      It’s clearer when it’s a physical problem. However, this person has put you in a bad spot, by confiding info that puts his job at stake. Maybe you can warn him. Or maybe you can ask him to report himself. Or maybe you should just report him. It’s not clear to me because I am too far removed. IF you think others will be injured, then you have no choice you MUST act. This has always been my bottom line. If other people might get hurt I have lost the luxury of “thinking about it” and I must act. Yeah, this is tough stuff.

  160. Slowly Going Insane*

    My boss and co-worker play these little mind games where they look at each other or have some little inside joke that leaves me out. My boss will also greet my co-worker warmly and then will either ignore me or let out a “tsk”. The next day they try to act nice to me, only to repeat the above scenario (ignoring) again the next day. If I’m not as talkative, my boss ignores me and only speaks to my co-worker. Then he will attempt to talk to me, but does so with attitude as if I’m the one who is being mean to him! He acts like the victim.

    It’s getting really tiring. We don’t have to be best friends, but these mind games are awful. Is getting out the only solution?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, this boss cannot manage people. He does not know how. And really it’s not your job to teach him. This is a game where if he wins he actually loses. He does not seem to be able to see that. Let him grow into adulthood on someone else’s time not yours.

  161. gnarlington*

    Hm, no one will probably read this so late after the post was made, but what the heck. I’m transitioning from part time to full time, and an offer is most likely going to come next week. Now our organization’s fiscal year is ending in September, and I first started work in November, but I’m wondering is there any room to negotiate here? I understand benefits and PTO will be part of my new compensation, but still curious. (Probably not.)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’m reading from the bottom up today. Ability to negotiate varies with each organization. Just because they have set their budget for the fiscal year is not the same as saying they have no extra money. It depends on how they planned their budget. Start by knowing what the pay rate is in your area for similar work and try to estimate similar ability as what you offer. Did you express a pay range that you felt was reasonable? Does the job ad offer a pay range?

      Erring on the side of caution, I would assume that if I tell them NO, there will not be a second offer. And I would figure my next move accordingly. It is good to know what your range is and what you feel you must say NO to.

    2. anon again*

      I’m not an expert and have never really negotiated a salary before, but I think it would be good to have a sense of the market value of the full-time position prior to the offer. If the offer is significantly less than market value, you could have room to use that information to negotiate for a higher salary/wage or increased benefits (more PTO, etc.).

      I’m in an industry where negotiations only happen at the highest levels, which I’m not at. So any offers I’ve had were pretty much a take it or leave it scenario. But I’ve generally felt the compensation was appropriate for the work responsibilities and my experience level, so that was fine with me.

  162. Mander*

    Very late but I thought I’d give it a shot:

    How do you write about writing skills in your job applications? I’m in the UK which uses a “person specification”, which is basically a list of qualifications you need and often includes things like “excellent writing skills” or “organizational skills”. The expectation is that you will address every qualification individually with a few sentences, so that the person evaluating the applications can basically run through the list and give everyone a score for each criterion based on what they wrote.

    I’ve never been comfortable with these kinds of applications, especially when you have to write about soft skills like that. Should I put in examples (e.g. wrote two theses, published an academic article, etc.)? I don’t really know how to write “I’m a good writer, me” without sounding completely foolish.

    1. anon again*

      I would think that if the intent is for the people doing the hiring to be able to easily assess each set of application materials against the job requirements, what you are suggesting would be a good way to handle it. Stating examples of the type of writing you’ve done, particularly any that is similar to what this job entails, would help with the assessment against the job requirements.

  163. Spider*

    Hi,

    Recently my manager told me that she has gut feeling that a staff from our subsidiary company is being dishonest, and wanted me to cc’ed her in emails where I communicate with the sub. staff about things the sub. staff sends in to us. This will ensure that my manager can pick up on the staff responses that sounded suspicious.

    My manager currently does not have hard evidence of the staff’s dishonesty, just the feeling.

    I wonder if there is another way to figure out about the staff’s dishonesty. And is the cc’ing the best method?

    1. Graciosa*

      Maybe there is another way to figure this out, and maybe the cc’ing is not the best method – but don’t worry about it.

      In your position, I would completely forget everything the boss told me except that I now needed to copy her on these emails. The boss gave you an instruction, and I would just follow it and let her handle everything else.

      This is clearly at the center of stuff I don’t want to be involved in unless absolutely necessary.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Also I am not sure CC would help – surprised she didn’t recomend BCC.
      But either way, I agree with Graciosa — follow your boss’s instructions — her gut feeling may be right, but let her handle it.

  164. Trekkie*

    What type of professional development opportunities do you have at work? Does your company or department have a formal professional development program? We are expanding our department (almost doubling the number of employees) and the director of the department wants to put me in charge of training. I also would like to propose that we set up some kind of professional development program. My company does not have a professional devlopment team or system right now so I am trying to do some preliminary research to see what other companies are doing.

    1. Graciosa*

      I don’t think we have a professional development program in the sense it sounds like you mean, despite the fact that I work for a *very* large company with a significant training function. I could be misinterpreting that, however, so I’ll give you a little more detail.

      I think I would break the actual development options into three buckets:

      1. Company-specific training, which is handled in house. This includes both corporate initiatives (think quality programs, the training for which is developed specifically for our company) and also required training (health and safety, compliance, EEOC, anti-corruption, etc.).

      In the latter case, I think some of it is pretty much off the shelf or minimally customized for our company (for example, the sample memos in the screenshot have our logo inserted, or there is an introduction from our CEO explaining how important this is, but it’s otherwise generic and could be used by any large company).

      Most of this is available on demand, and assigned to us if mandatory (requirements vary by position). Training tracks who has taken (or needs to take) which courses and when.

      2. General business training. This is available in house because we license access to a library of it, but none of it is specific to our employer. This tends to be stuff about how to improve your productivity, communicate more effectively, or manage your email. It includes the ability to download business books (7 Habits, Who Moved My Cheese, etc.).

      3. Professional training. This is the stuff that is actually useful, and is rarely offered in house. There aren’t enough people doing my specific work of X – even at my very large (Fortune 100) employer – to constitute a profitable audience for training on certain topics, and no one in the training office is going to be in a good position to figure out what might be interesting or useful to me.

      Once in a while, our function will bring in a useful presentation or speaker, but the training department has nothing to do with it. That isn’t actually a criticism – it isn’t their fault, it’s just the result of the combined forces of math and lack of specialty knowledge. When I want to take this kind of training, I sign up for it and get reimbursed for the expense.

      When you talk about professional development programs, it makes me think you’re envisioning something very different. For example, a function at a former employer had developed a clear list of required skills and experiences needed to develop as a professional. It was probably analogous to what is done in some business internships, or in the rotations during a medical residency. “Program” sounds like there is a clear path leading – well, *somewhere* like the resident who finishes his residency – and our company just doesn’t work like that.

      At my employer, a development plan is actually included in the annual performance review, and the manager provides guidance about what the individual needs to do to improve (whether in place or to move to another position). This can include not only the types of training items I listed above, but also projects, participation on certain teams, special assignments – in short, *anything* that the manager thinks will be helpful. This is very personalized and tailored to the individual employee. The training team has no involvement in it.

      The function most responsible for overseeing this is probably HR, which obviously supported making the development plan a required part of reviews before I joined the company, and who could rap my hand if I wasn’t doing it well.

      I think our training team provides good support by making the more generic items available to us rather than telling us what to take (outside of compliance items, of course). I put a lot of thought into how best to develop my own employees, and appreciate that my manager does the same with me. The conversations about this are very collaborative, but also very personal to my specific situation – which honestly, is something I would hate to lose by being slotted into a “professional development program” created by a training office. Maybe I’m misinterpreting this, however, so it may not be an issue with what you’re envisioning.

      I hope the information about how we handle this will be useful.

      Best wishes.

  165. An anonymous teapot maker*

    So I know it’s Saturday, but here goes.

    My company has a newsletter (email-letter?) for customers, with news about new features of our products and tips to get the most out of them. Employees are encouraged to subscribe, as well as to write articles for it (one employee does the editing so everything has a similar “feel”). The articles are published on the customer portion of our website; the first paragraph is in the newsletter, with a “read more” link.

    Awhile back, the headlining article had some glaring errors in it — luckily only in the linked part, not in the paragraph that was in the newsletter. One was stylistic: using the same adjective twice in one sentence (“The event was wonderful and fantastic, and it was fantastic that so many of you wonderful customers were there”). There was also a grammatical error that made a whole sentence incomprehensible, and a typo along the lines of inserting the letter ‘h’ into the word ‘sit’.

    The article was unsigned, so I sent an email to the person who I thought would be able to edit the content on our website, asking her to make the corrections. I also *may have* editorialized a bit about how unprofessional it was to let these errors slip by, & been a bit harsh about it — not that I was blaming her, more along the lines of “I can’t believe that whoever wrote & edited this didn’t catch these!” In my defense, the typo/grammatical errors were not trivial.

    Apparently the person I emailed was not the person who could make the corrections, because several other people in the marketing department saw my email, and I received a blistering response from the department head telling me that I was too critical, that the person who wrote the article had tried really hard and was hurt by my comments, and that my “editorial” comments were rude. Not a word about the professionalism of having cusswords on the company website. I was pretty offended by the response, but this person is known for having a volatile temper & the whole incident blew over eventually.

    Or so I thought. I’ve written several articles for the newsletter since then, & *every one* has had an error in it. “They’re” instead of “their”, that kind of thing. The mistakes are not in the copy that the editor & I send back & forth, which makes me wonder if the newsletter software doesn’t allow copy/paste and someone is retyping the whole thing? Because otherwise it seems (especially since my previous articles were error-free, and other employees’ articles still are) that it’s a passive-aggressive response to me. Which sounds more likely?

    I’ve stopped writing articles unless asked to contribute, btw.

  166. Frustrated and Upset*

    I’m hoping someone might have some advice for me. I have been informed, unofficially, that the big boss is looking to outsource one of my tasks, pretty much the only task I enjoy and is of benefit to where I’d like my career to head. I’m not perfect at the task, but I’ve significantly improved on what they were doing before me, and have the stats to prove it. The task is the only thing I do that aligns with my qualifications, and I have undertaken additional training in my own time to do the task better for the company.
    I would hate to lose this task, but accept that it’s not my call, and that outsourcing may actually be what’s best for the company. The difficult part is that my manager is asking for my opinion on various companies that they are considering outsourcing the task to. I’ve tried explaining that I can’t offer an impartial opinion on something that is detrimental to my career, but due to my manager’s personality, and our personal relationship (she’s been a family friend since I was a small child), I feel that she doesn’t listen to me about that sort of thing. It’s made more complicated by the fact that I am actively job searching (my manager is aware, the big boss isn’t), but have been rather unsuccessful so far, so it’s not like I can realistically plan my exit.
    Any advice on either a) convincing them to allow me to continue to do the task, or b) at the very least keep me out of the decision of deciding what company is going to take it away from me?

    1. Graciosa*

      No, not really – because if I were advising you, I would advise you that the outsourcing decision is obviously closed, and refusing to help your current employer as you describe looks pretty unprofessional.

      This stuff happens, and professionals handle it by providing their best advice when requested – even if that advice is about the best company to do something you hate to give up. Declaring that you can’t be impartial is like declaring that you can’t behave professionally. This is not a winning career move.

      I absolutely understand that this isn’t fun and it doesn’t feel good. I have had to do this myself and I won’t pretend it’s a walk in the park, but this is where your reputation as a professional is made. People really remember how you conduct yourself under stress, especially right before you leave.

      If you’re trying to get out of there, you are about to leave your final impression with a whole slew of references (formal or informal – not just your bosses but a lot of coworkers and other people in your working world that you may encounter again).

      Once when I was laid off, I did a great job transitioning. I behaved extremely professionally and really tried hard to do the best I possibly could in my remaining time. At the time, I was doing it as a matter of professional pride, not realizing that it would absolutely make my reputation. I had more job referrals and great references than I will ever need as a result – it really opened my eyes.

      One colleague who was also laid off had a different reaction, and basically stopped working immediately (on the grounds that obviously he couldn’t be trusted with our fairly sensitive work when he could no longer be expected to be loyal to the company). The company accepted this and no one said anything to him, but I know his reputation took a hit he may not even be aware of.

      When one of our former colleagues got a promising job lead or had to recommend a candidate, which of us do you think got the nod?

      Looking back, the cost of some fantastic future career opportunities was that I had to suck it up for a few weeks. As hard as it was – and remember, I lost my ENTIRE job, not just a part of it that I enjoyed – it was totally worth it.

      If you can do the best job possible for your employer while you’re there – even when you don’t want to – it will be remembered long after you leave.

      1. Frustrated and Upset*

        Thanks Graciosa, I really appreciate your response. I completely agree with you that you need to conduct yourself appropriately when looking to leave, and I honestly thought being upfront about being unable to give impartial advice was the most professional way to act, but I can see that that is wrong now. I’m not too sure about how to overcome any of my subconcious bias though.
        My apologies that I wasn’t clear before, but the decision to definately outsource it hasn’t been made. The big boss is one of two people who will make the decision, and I don’t think even the one who initiated it is totally sold on it yet. Obviously, it’s cheaper for them to continue to keep it as one of my tasks, then to pay someone else (unless they reduce my hours, but I’ve just signed a new contract, so that won’t be an immediate solution).

  167. Persephone Mulberry*

    On the off chance that someone might still check in here this weekend…

    My school is reorganizing its adult education department, and my major is one that is affected. I have the choice of staying grandfathered into my current major and graduation requirements, or transferring to the new catalog, and I am torn which path to take.

    Staying in the current catalog:
    – My degree would be B.S. Business Administration: Marketing & Management
    – My transcript will reflect a 15-credit minor in Integrated Marketing Communication and Design
    – I have 28 credits to complete, including two classes that I have to retake because I didn’t pass the first time

    Moving to the new catalog:
    – My degree will be B.S. Business Management
    – My (already completed) minor is not recognized
    – I have 26 credits to complete, and the two classes I’ve struggled with would no longer be required

    I’m pretty sure I want to switch. I come out slightly ahead in credit dollars spent, and I avoid the classes (and one particular professor) that I hated.

    DH and my advisor think I should grandfather. DH is concerned that the more generic “business” degree (vs the marketing emphasis degree) will not look as good to future employers. I think my current degree is too much of a mouthful already and most ads ask for a degree in “marketing, business, or similar” anyway. My advisor mostly thinks it would be a shame for my minor to go unrecognized. I’m half tempted to put it on my resume anyway, and explain the catalog situation if they ask for a transcript/do a background check and ask why it’s not listed.

    What says the AAM commentariat? I should have made this decision a month ago, but the department head is offering an extension.

    2. Ultraviolet*

      I’d be pretty wary of describing it as a minor on your resume if it’s not going to be listed as a minor on your transcript. Even though you have a good explanation, I feel like it would give a really bad impression. I’m not a hiring manager though.

      Is there any chance you’d ever want to get an MBA, or apply to any other type of grad school (or second bachelor)? If so, I’m pretty sure you’d be much, much better off retaking the classes you didn’t pass the first time.

      I wouldn’t worry about the degree being a mouthful in any event.

      I hope some more people with relevant experience will have more helpful answers for you! Good luck.

    3. periwinkle*

      I’ll second AAM’s suggestion. The minor isn’t the important bit – what you learned from the minor’s classes, sure, but not the text on your diploma. Your cover letters are a prime spot for mentioning your academic focus on integrated marketing and of course you can slip in that information during interviews.

      Assuming you are completing this degree with an eye toward moving into marketing roles, the minor or minor-related classes are only going to be relevant for the first job. After that, hiring managers will probably just care that you’ve got a business degree and accomplishments from that first job.

      Another practical consideration: if you’re considering pursuing an MBA or other graduate degree, ditching those problematic class requirements could boost your GPA.

      1. Ultraviolet*

        If I understand correctly, Persephone has already taken the problematic classes and not passed them. So those grades are already on her transcript, lowering her GPA. This depends on the school, but it’s fairly common that if you retake a class you failed and pass it, you’ll get some benefit to your GPA. Like both times you took the class appear on your transcript, but only the passing grade is factored into your GPA. Or sometimes the average of the passing grade and the failing grade is used for the GPA. If Persephone’s school does something like that, the GPA-boosting move would be to retake the classes (and thus presumably stick with the old catalog).

    4. Expected to pay more than my fair share*

      As the mother of a daughter who ended up bailing on a graduate degree because of a professor (and taking the class twice) I say switch.

  168. Chairs*

    Just posting this here as a vent, and not really expecting anyone to read and/or answer.

    I am noticeably overwieght, and have put on weight since joining the company four years ago. I am acutely aware of this and have started a long-term build healthier habits (I am no consistently eating more fruits/veggies and protein, sleeping better, eating only when hungry, etc.). I haven’t lost any poundage/inches yet, but have definitely gained strength/muscle and just generally feel better, (and the habits appear to be sticking versus the short term dieting I’ve tried in the past), so I’m okay with making small/slow progress.

    In my office of ~40 people, one of our admin/production team has a tendency to mother us. Today, someone brought in some cinnamon rolls and left them in the kitchen. I decided to have a small one – to supplement my breakfast. As I leave the kitchen, the admin walks in a says “The apples would taste just as good.”

    Fuck off, coworker. I’ve eaten 6+ servings of fruits/veggies each day this week, and I’m on track to do so the rest of the week. I’ve finally just become comfortable in my skin/appearance and the progress I’m making (rather than hiding behind baggy non-descript clothes and not ever going out), and now you have me getting all judgmental on my weight/food choices again. Thanks so much for your seven syllables of judgement while knowing absolutely nothing about the rest of my diet and exercise plans.

    1. Zita*

      Hi Chairs,
      I don’t really have much in the way of advice to you, other than to just suggest ignoring the admin, or if you’d rather have a reply ready in case it happens again, just say something along the lines of “I know you mean well, but could you not?”. But I wanted to say congratulations on changing your habits. That’s much harder to do, and has more long-term benefits then just loosing some weight by crash dieting. So well done!
      Also, I’m willing to bet that the apples wouldn’t have tasted just as good as freshly made cinnamon rolls. Occassional treats are important.

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