I didn’t get a job because I was a bully in high school

by Alison Green on April 25, 2017

A reader writes:

I’ve been trying to break into a niche industry (30-40 jobs in a city with a population of 3 million) for a while now. I’m in my late 20s, and though it took me some time to decide what I wanted to do with my life, I have finished my degree and completed two internships. I’m working part-time in a related field and freelancing while searching for a full-time job in the niche industry. I’m willing to move for the right job, but I’d rather stay close to home — so I was stoked last summer when I got an interview for one of the very few entry-level jobs available in my city! I ultimately didn’t get it, but the interview went well enough they encouraged me to apply the next time they had an opening.

Then an acquaintance who works at the company called me up and asked if I wanted to get coffee. I figured she’d offer me tips on how to do better next time. Instead, she told me to give up on ever being hired there — turns out, a girl I had gone to high school with is a real rock star at this company, and she threatened to resign when it looked like I was about to be offered a job. (I hadn’t realized it was her because her married name is different.) I’ll be honest — I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl. I looked my former classmate up, and her resume really is incredible. She graduated from college early and has awards people who’ve worked in our industry twice as long haven’t won. Her public-facing work is top-notch. I’m guessing she’s the kind of employee a manager wants to keep around.

My acquaintance’s prediction appears to be true: I didn’t get an interview for a new position at the company that would’ve been an even better fit than the one I’d interviewed for. When I asked why, I was told a staffer had raised some concerns and the company would not be moving forward with my candidacy. I’m heartbroken. I worked so hard for so long to get the training required for this type of work, and I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17. I have my former classmate’s work email. Should I beg for forgiveness?

This is tricky.

On one hand, I don’t think there’s anything to lose by apologizing. And if you were pretty awful to her, it sounds like it would be the right thing to do.

On the other hand, it’s going to look motivated by your desire to get a job there, and risks coming across as more self-interested than genuine.

Because of that, I think you should do it only if you can frame it as a genuine apology, unconnected to your job prospects there. If you can explain that the situation made you reflect on your behavior to her in high school and realize that you owe her an apology — and if you can honestly say that you don’t expect this to change anything about your job prospects there but just genuinely wanted to apologize — then maybe.

However, if you then apply for jobs there again anytime in the next year or two, it’s likely to look like it wasn’t that genuine.

So … I would say to send that type of apology because it’s the right thing to do but also to write this company off for at least a while.

Now, is that fair that you’d be blacklisted for something you did at 17? I think it depends on exactly how bad your treatment of her was — there are some things that would be bad enough that you shouldn’t expect it to be written off even a decade later. And there are other things where holding a professional grudge after someone expressed sincere regret would be an overreaction.

But this might not be about a grudge. She might genuinely feel that she can’t comfortably work with you. It might not have to do with forgiving or not forgiving you, and she might be well aware that you’re a different person now — and yet might still feel that seeing her high school tormenter every day isn’t something she’d want to stick around for. If that’s how she feels, that’s legitimate — and it’s understandable that her employer wouldn’t want to lose a stellar employee for someone who’s an unknown quantity.

Ultimately, it’s not so much about whether it’s fair (it might be, it might not be), but about what is and how you respond to that. I think sending a genuine apology and then moving on from this company is your best move here, as frustrating as I’m sure that is.

Read an update to this letter here.

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  1. Arpai*

    If I found out my high school bully applied for a job at my company, I absolutely would threaten to resign if he were to be hired. That guy made my life miserable from second grade through 12th grade, sexually harrassed me, physically hurt me and generally made me wish I was dead. If I saw him about to be hit by a train, I’d turn my head the other way. I’m sure if you asked him today, he’d think what he did wasn’t that bad. Because he is a monster.

    1. AMG*

      And I’m sure he’d say he wasn’t that bad and that you were overreacting if you blocked him from working at the same employer. People don’t seem to understand how they affect others.

      1. JulesCase*

        OP, the fact that you needed to look up your former classmate to see who it was you bullied in this case makes me wonder just how many former classmates you bullied in total.

        I know teens can be mean, thoughtless, and just plain stupid and that should be considered when holding a grudge (I suppose), however bullying can lead kids to depression, anxiety, drug use, and at worst, suicide. I was never bullied in school, however I had a friend who was bullied relentlessly and it made me despise any person who felt the need to bully at all; it truly ruins a persons life during some of the most difficult years of being alive in general. This might sound bad but karma can be a b*tch and the way you feel now is probably 1/100th as horrible as you made that girl feel back in school. Just sayin’.

        1. Laura*

          Huh? OP only says that she didn’t realize it was the girl from high school because the former classmate had changed her name – nothing about needing to “look her up.”

          1. Gen*

            When OP said she “probably was pretty awful” to the person, it suggested she doesn’t fully remember what she did to her I read it to mean she remembers her as someone from school but not the extent of it. This seems to happen with some bullies, what seems like inconsequential childhood stuff to them lingers with their victims for years. I got a Facebook message from someone once who was excited to reconnect with me. He remembered me as a supportive friend and spoke fondly of the times we spent together- meanwhile I remember him as the bully I had nightmares about until my 20s.

            I don’t think OP should apologise unless they can actually remember the details because “I was probably pretty mean to you” is going to sound like CYA even if they do wait a year or two to reapply. Personally there are few circumstances where I would work directly with one of my bullies and I have moved departments to get away from them in the past.

            1. Just Another HR Pro*

              So I actually had this happen to me when I was waiting tables one summer while in college. One of the girls in a group of bullies came in and sat down in my section, and I refused to serve her. So another server took care of her. At the end of the meal, she said something to my coworker about how she didn’t really remember me too well, but does remember that she was really awful to me in school. She was – terrible to me. Physically and emotionally. And while I have moved on to be quite successful (not unlike the target in the OP’s letter), she has not been. My guess is that she still doesn’t know how to treat people.

              As an adult now, I realize there were probably not great things going on in her home life (I assume), or that she felt so bad about herself for whatever reason that she had to lift herself up by making others feel bad. But that doesn’t absolve her of her prior poor treatment.

              So OP – while those of us who were bulled have to live with the scars of the way we were treated as children (and trust me – even with therapy, they never go away), I guess this is your consequence. If you want me to feel bad for you, sorry. And apologizing now would be moot, since you are only doing it for personal gain. The best you can do is raise your kids to be kind and stop the cycle.

              1. seejay*

                I totally get that some kids are coming from terrible home lives and are lashing out because of it. Problem is that they’re usually lashing out at other kids that are *also* coming from terrible home lives too and something’s going to crack.

                One of the kids on the bus that attacked my sister and I announced to everyone that our mom was a “drunk” because she’d been spotted at an AA meeting. We were still really delicate and sensitive to this because my mom was about a year sober at the time and we were still trying to grasp the whole drug and alcohol addiction thing that we’d grown up in, which is pretty heavy crap for a 7 year old. When I got home in tears and told my mom about it, I found out that this boy had found out about mom being at AA because *his dad* was at the meeting and told his kid about our mom. So this kid’s dad, who actually wasn’t sober at the time and *was* a drunk, went home and broke someone else’s anonymity, and this kid used it as ammunition to attack us even though our mom wasn’t a drunk since she was sober.. but his dad was a practicing alcoholic at the time. It was clear that he was the one with a pretty messed up home life and he was lashing out because of it, but even knowing this didn’t make it any easier for us to handle his verbal attacks (because we were told, in no uncertain terms, that we were *not* to attack back with “well YOUR dad is the drunk because HE was at the meeting too!” Essentially we had to just suck it up and take it.)

                A lot of the times victims aren’t allowed or able to fight back, bullies know how to pick their targets. They’re coming from backgrounds just as broken as the bully’s and don’t have the venom or stamina to stand up to them.

                1. MadGrad*

                  Ugh, that’s awful and I have nothing useful to say but I’m so sorry. The “don’t fight back in the logical way or you’ll be just as bad” can hurt just as badly as any pain nasty people can inflict.

                2. Ruffingit*

                  On the not fighting back thing, I love this quote:

                  “Don’t fight hate with hate” is an example of subtle gaslighting, where our legitimate hurt & anger at the injustices we suffer is being equated to the bigotry & abuse of our oppressors. Being angry doesn’t mean you are being hateful, it means you love yourself enough to get upset at your own mistreatment.”

              2. turquoises*

                Idk, I think an apology would be appropriate if it includes something along the lines of “I totally respect your desire to not work with me, and I will not reapply as long as you’re still working here.” (I don’t think a 1-2 year wait is enough.) It removes personal gain from the equation, and affirms the boundary that Rockstar drew for her health/sanity.

            2. OP*

              Here’s what happened: I’d known this girl since elementary school and had mutual friends in common in middle schools. We started hanging out a lot our sophomore year because my family moved in across the street. She started to call me her best friend, even though I didn’t consider her mine. She also liked a boy in our friend group that I started dating. That made it really awkward, so I decided I didn’t want to be friends with her anymore. It wasn’t my intention to cut her out of the friend group, but that’s what happened. My understanding is she ended up feeling very isolated and alone for the rest of high school. I realize now I could’ve handled it better.

              The last I heard was she was working two states away, and remembering her from back then, she always said she wanted to get the hell out of our city. So it didn’t occur to me that the Lauren Johnson I saw on the staff page could be the Lauren Pumpernickel I knew in high school.

              1. Anonymoose*

                Hmm, ya, that does just sort of sound like normal high school drama – unless your circle of friends were incredibly antagonistic to her ‘in your name’. Which doesn’t make it fair for you to take the brunt of it, but that’s why most folks don’t ever want to go back to their high school years. It’s a bitch.

                I hope you’re able to find a new place to work, but I personally would invite her to coffee and just hash it out since it seems to have scarred her pretty badly regardless. Maybe it’ll give her some closure and then you two can easily work in the same industry, who knows.

              2. TL -*

                Ooof, that sounds like a bad mix of events and teenage awkwardness that probably just hit her at the right time/spot to really make an impression.

                It doesn’t sound like you were actively bullying her (though I bet she remembers every interaction with you as being quite different than you do) but I don’t think there’s a lot you can do – you can apologize if you’d like; if it’s genuine and specific and you can do it through a non-work channel, I certainly think it’s appropriate.

              3. Observer*

                Please stop and think about what you wrote here, and in your letter. You pushed someone out of your social circle because she liked the guy you were dating and you brush that off as “something I said”? Does that even make sense? I’m not calling you a monster, but what you did WAS pretty awful. You’re dismissing it that way makes it even worse.

                Everyone makes mistakes, and it’s the very, very rare person who has never done something wrong. What separates the obnoxious young person from the decent adult is not just changed behavior but the understanding that the old behavior really bad and not to be repeated, rather than the attitude of “eh that’s water under the bridge and not my problem.”

                1. Anonymoose*

                  I think you’re overreacting for someone who wasn’t involved in the situation at all. In fact, we could say that the ‘victim’ was just a manipulative shrew, but that doesn’t make it correct. Just as you shouldn’t assume OP was horribly guilty of certain travesty. This is basic high school politics, in which one new friend was not chosen – by a bunch of other people, I might add – to continue with the circle. It sucks, and it happens EVERY DAY, even in adult friendship circles. Dear lord.

                2. Sylvia*

                  I’m reading this pretty differently. OP ended a friendship and then the girl left the friend group, feeling alienated from it.

                3. Mary Dempster*

                  In highschool if someone liked the guy you were dating and the worst you did was stop talking to her, you are pretty much an angel. Observer is overreacting HARD.

                4. Middle school was aweful*

                  Thank you Observer!! As someone who was bullied: I read ‘you like a guy, then all of a sudden not only do you not get the guy, but the girl who gets him also takes all your friends and you’re left all alone.’ And at that terrible age?? I’m literally getting flashbacks. Oh man, i get that it seems unfair, but that a lot of memories the OP’s probably dealing with. The lady who bullied me tried to fb friend request me about a year back, I bellied laughed and (internally) wished her the worst.

                5. AMG*

                  Haha not at my school! You got your ass best for that! A guy almost raped me after giving me drugs and when his off-and-on girlfriend found out about it, she was looking for me for weeks. This chick had put someone in the hospital before.

                  Another girl I knew ripped he Rex boyfriend’s new gurlfriend’s hair out while punching her repeatedly.

                  Your experiences aren’t the same as mine, so don’t assume anyone is overreacting.

                6. fposte*

                  But, for a variant on a question asked elsewhere, what if the behavior wasn’t really bad and it still scars the recipient? What if you were shy and anxious and finally mustered up the urge to ask out the beautiful girl you liked, being shoved forward by your friend, and she cut you dead without even answering? That would be pretty hard to forgive, but that’s Mary Dempster’s story below from the other side. Was it really bad of her to think this was yet another gotcha and to move away from it?

                7. AMG*

                  Oops–OP actually puts more detail into focus on this toward the end of the thread. It was definitely bullying.

                8. Bryce*

                  Well, some of these stories put my getting chased halfway across town and egged into perspective.

                9. Observer*

                  Look, kfox is not a monster. But, what she describes is definitely “mean girl” behavior, and I would most definitely call it bullying – there is more detail down below.

                  At 17 she wasn’t a child and WAS old enough to know that what she was doing was pushing this other girl out of the social circle. And it most definitely was not a thing she said.

                  And, if “only” pushing someone out of your socials circle for the crimes of being socially awkward, getting too high grades and liking your boyfriend makes you one of the “good ones”, then I’m glad that I never went to a public HS.

              4. Mike B.*

                This…doesn’t really sound like bullying. It was unkind of you, sure, and it clearly made her unhappy for some years, but you were a child.

                The answer is essentially the same–there’s nothing much you can do about her feelings when you directly shaped them, even in innocence–but the talk about bullying isn’t really salient in light of this, and some people are being quite a bit more stern than is called for.

                1. Zombii*

                  >>This…doesn’t really sound like bullying.

                  Seriously. What the hell. I am seriously side-eyeing that headline right now (although I’m guessing/hoping Alison didn’t have this context because.. wow).

                  This isn’t bullying, this is just some shit that happens when people don’t know how to deal with potentially awkward situations. If OP was actively vicious, that’s a different thing, but fwiw I know grown adults that still hold a grudge against people who “stole him from me in high school when you knew I liked him!“—grown adults who have families and lives and should be over the drama of who went out with who 10 or 20 years ago.

                  I mean, it sucks that Past Friend is blocking OP from a job she’s qualified for, but I don’t know if I’d want to work with someone who has that maturity level. I’d still apologize, because it’s kind to acknowledge that your actions caused someone else pain, and there’s some chance you’ll end up talking about how stupid everyone was in high school and reconcile and it would be good for Past Friend to be able to move beyond this, but I think you may have dodged a bullet here, OP.

                2. Zombii*

                  Note: I was the alienated depressive kid in high school who didn’t have a lot of friends. It isn’t bullying to not want to spend time with someone, even though it does definitely mess you up when the other kids don’t want to play with you (because you’re “weird”).

                  There’s a good chance OP’s Past Friend has or is working through the underlying issues and/or has distanced herself from her past and doesn’t want the OP there to be a reminder of one of the shittier times in her life.

                  This doesn’t change anything for the OP, just that’s where I’d be on that side of it.

                3. Annonymouse*

                  Maybe not but the sentence “It wasn’t my intention to cut her out of the friend group but it happened anyway.”

                  Is pretty telling.

                  When you’re a teenager your friends are everything to you. To have a crush on someone that’s dating someone else and have that someone else make you a social piraiah at the time when friends mean the most to you would suck.

                  It creates scars and hurt and I am not surprised that the rockstar isn’t a bit afraid of it happening again or at least not willing to work with the person who removed their support system in high school.

                4. AMG*

                  Again, everyone is assuming that the OP hasn’t forgotten any details. This page is full of examples of people who forgot how awful they were to others. It doesn’t seem uncommon.

                5. Katie the Fed*

                  There’s a very, very good chance OP doesn’t remember a lot of the details. I know we don’t generally doubt an OPs version of events, but studies consistently show that high school bullies really don’t remember the awful things they did – it leaves far more of an impression o their victims.

              5. AMG*

                I had a new friend whose boyfriend (Her first real boyfriend) broke up with her after dating from ages 14-16. He asked me out and I accepted. Since it was Sophomore year, we had been to different Junior High Schools (7-9th grade), I didn’t know they had even been dating. Her friends treated me horribly by spreading rumors, threatening me, making fun of me, all in the name of defending her. I was so hurt and confused. She knew it was all happening. We smoothed it over via Facebook a few years ago but one of her friends is STILL rude to me and I have literally never said one word to that friend.

                1. Mary Dempster*

                  This reminds me of when I was told I “ruined someone’s life for years.”

                  I was walking down the hallway in middle school, very VERY shy, and some guy was pushing his friend towards me, and he asked me out. I was 100% sure it was a dare, that he was joking, and being mean to ME, so I walked on without saying a word, feeling mortified. Turned out he really was trying to ask me out and I “ruined his life for years” and he had no confidence with women.

                  Some things are NOT bullying and are NOT anyone’s fault. This is one of them.

                2. AMG*

                  Actually, My point is that OP should not assume that her friends weren’t being mean to Rock Star, especially when we are talking about high school relationships.

                  And until you have your own entourage of bullies making fun of nearly every moment of your day, I don’t think you can say it isn’t bullying.
                  Your example is wildly different from what I’m talking about.

                3. ArtsNerd*

                  Yikes. Mary, I hope you didn’t take that “ruined his life” to heart. (I’m still learning to stop taking responsibility for men’s inability to handle rejection myself….)

              6. chicken_flavored_deodorant*

                “It wasn’t my intention to cut her out of the friend group, but that’s what happened.”

                This is a convenient use of the passive voice to gloss over any personal responsibility for events in which you participated.

                Given that the cruelties inflicted upon Lauren Johnson *just happened*, what is there to apologize for? Why was an apology even considered as an option? Would you apologize for a similar unintentional event, like rain on Lauren’s wedding day or a black fly in her chardonnay?

              7. MuseumChick*

                Extremely late to the game here but I wanted to add:

                I see two possibilities here, either 1) What you say is 100% accurate and this person is way over-reacting holding a grudge. 2) You were way worse than you remember. Either one is equally possible and I think it would be good to take some time to consider #2.

                No doubt this person would recall the events very differently than you do.

              8. Lee*

                Just to let you know…what you did is not bullying. I say this as someone whose been on both sides.
                I’d ignore some of the commentators to this, some people can’t help but project their bad experiences unto this. The world is so much bigger than the mean guy from high school, or the ice queen who froze me out of a group. Perhaps her treatment in high school led her to want to become a “rock star” in her career, whereas general acceptance would’ve committed her to life of mediocrity, who knows?
                I wouldn’t apologize for your actions or feel guilty. She’s married and apparently has a great career. The fact that she can’t let go of decade old high school memories says much more about the kind of person she’s turned into, and I would wash my hands of this person.
                Also…kudos to you for being more concerned with her raw feelings, rather than the fact she’s intentionally ruining your career prospects and potentially bad mouthing you within a niche network.

                1. Jesmlet*

                  All we have here is OP’s obviously biased perspective. This girl lost all her friends because of OP, regardless of the intent. To a 16 year old girl, having no friends for 2 years in high school must be pretty devastating. And that’s all just based on OP’s version where she admits she said something and was ‘not nice’ and ‘probably pretty awful’ to this girl. If OP is going to get anywhere with this, she has to look at things from this person’s perspective too, so we should do the same.

                  To OP, I agree with Alison. Apologizing with no ulterior motives is probably your best move here, both for yourself and for the other person. It may or may not help your career but it’s the right thing to do. Even if you think her feelings and actions are unjustified, you can be the bigger person and own up to your part of it. I would strongly recommend putting this company out of your mind though. It’s probably highly unlikely you’d ever get another chance there.

            3. Clewgarnet*

              I bumped into somebody from school a few years back. She was thrilled to see me, and happily babbled on about all the happy times she remembered from when we were ‘friends’.

              I was frozen, and all I could think about was how she’d laughed at me for attempting suicide and, “not even succeeding.”

              A lot of bullies really don’t understand just how horrific their behaviour was, and how the effects stick with their victims.

              I would absolutely use all the power I have at my company to stop this woman being hired, and would resign if she was.

              1. Anonymoose*

                “I was frozen, and all I could think about was how she’d laughed at me for attempting suicide and, “not even succeeding.””

                Now THAT is bullying. (and I am so so sorry, she was awful! And I am personally glad that you ‘failed’. :) )

            4. Robin B*

              Reminds me of that episode of “The Big Bang Theory” where Leonard’s high school tormentor wants to see him. The bully doesn’t have a clue that they were not all just “having a good time” by stuffing Leonard in his locker, etc.

            5. chicken_flavored_deodorant*

              I fully agree. The OP purports to have no recollection of what was done or how bad it was. Given that, there really is no point in apologizing. How can you apologize if you don’t know what you did?

              OP doesn’t seem sorry to have done the deed; OP is sorry he/she got caught.

              1. Jesmlet*

                You can still apologize for the impact of the behavior without specifically remembering what was said or done. If OP is not sorry as you believe, then the apology will come across hollow and it won’t be worth the time. But if OP was a bully and now no longer behaves that way, then it will be to everyone’s benefit to try and apologize as sincerely as possible, expecting nothing in return.

          2. JulesCase*

            My mistake- I interpreted that as OP needing to look up the former classmate in the yearbook or online to see who the person from the past was.

            knowing more now about the situation that occurred, OP’s description and her victim’s reaction at the present time don’t seem to allign; something is off. OP described something that happens practically daily and middle school and high school with groups of friends. The rockstar’s reaction – to threaten resignation if OP were to be hired – suggests that one of them remembers the situation VERY differently from what actually went down.

        2. TL -*

          I don’t have strong memories of a lot of high school because I was dealing with some pretty awful stuff at home. I don’t think I bullied anyone (I try to be nice) but if someone told me I had bullied them, my reaction would probably be along these lines – oh, okay; I don’t remember very well but it fits in with the pattern.
          Doesn’t mean I was bullying a plethora of people, just that I wasn’t really thinking about what was happening at school.
          That being said, I do vividly remember the one fight I got in and the one time I accidentally slammed my friend’s fingers in the car door, so it really depends on what the bullying looked like.

          1. Anonymoose*

            I still get chills when I think about the bully I beat up in retaliation for trying to bully me and my best friend. If I saw her today? I’d want to scratch her eyes out still. It’s like a predator instinct, and I don’t know why. This is TWENTY years later. Jeebus.

            1. TL -*

              Oh, the girl and I made up – it was not a big fight, we mostly shoved each other into a fence. We were over it the next day or so and continued to talk until we graduated.

              The friend whose fingers I slammed in the car I still feel super bad about – it hurt really badly (nothing was broken, thank god) and it was a complete accident, but it was carelessness on my part.

            2. TL -*

              Not sure if this is a duplicate but –
              Oh, the girl and I made up – it was not a big fight, we mostly shoved each other into a fence. We were over it the next day or so and continued to talk until we graduated.

              The friend whose fingers I slammed in the car I still feel super bad about – it hurt really badly (nothing was broken, thank god) and it was a complete accident, but it was carelessness on my part.

        3. beetrootqueen*

          actually from what i read and my own experiences bullies not recognising their victims is super common. they don’t realise how much they are messing with the other people and when confronted with it often don’t remember their victims. my bully didn’t recognise me and it really shook me up afterwards that they had impacted me so badly but they couldn’t even remember my name

          1. Michael Carmichael*

            Yes to this. My bully and I caught up at our 30 year high school reunion – she was overjoyed to see me because her only memories were misty happy recollections of our childhood together despite the truly awful things she did to me.

            I did not bring up the bullying because I knew (1) she had a rotten home life, not that that excuses it, and (2) I saw no reason to continue to see myself as a victim. So we moved on. We won’t be besties, but definitely seeing her and hearing how wonderful she thought our friendship was helped me forgive.

          2. many bells down*

            Yeah one of mine recently tried to chat with me on a Facebook post of a mutual friend. She didn’t remember me at all, then she looked at my pictures and said “Oh yeah we did hang out.”

            We never hung out. She harassed me incessantly. She remembers none of it.

          3. Marcy marketer*

            Yeah, I agree that OP might not think she “said anything bad” or “encouraged” the friend group to cut out this friend, but that just speaks to me about how bullies don’t realize they are bullying.

            In high school there were a group of girls who made me feel very bad about myself, called me names, made comments about my looks, and always said it in a way that I had to laugh along to. One time a teacher called the ring leader out, and she said “Marcy and I are just joking together. She thinks it’s funny, don’t you Marcy?” And I just had to nod even though I felt horrible inside. This, all because a guy she liked asked me out once. The guy asked me out freshman year and this continued until we graduated.

            I would never in 100 years work with one of these girls. I’d never even go to a reunion because I’d have to see them. But I very much doubt if they remembered this the same way. I bet they didn’t even think it was “bullying,” just typical high school stuff. And maybe it was. But I still don’t want to work with them!

            1. Marcy marketer*

              Yeah and just to add to what Seejay said below, it’s not because I hold a grudge or think they’re bad people; it’s because I don’t want the memories stirred up and I’m worried about a power imbalance. I just don’t think we’d be able to have a good working relationship with that history. I actually do remember instances in high school where I in turn made someone feel bad, and took out my insecurities on them, and I feel awful about it, still, and try to be a better person now. So I’m not piling on you, OP, to say you’re “bad” but just to be aware that your behavior in high school is going to affect this person strongly.

          4. Icecreamroll*

            It makes me wonder how many of the people who can remember being bullied, may have forgotten or even not realized that they were bullies? Studies have shown that often bullies are bullied, and that bullying is done to those perceived as being similar/equal in stature to the bully. Almost everyone has a story of being bullied; fewer remember times they mistreated others.

        4. detached anon*

          OP, the fact that you needed to look up your former classmate to see who it was…

          I understood the OP to mean that she didn’t know this person was a former classmate because her surname had changed & the OP looked up this person’s professional credentials. Many would do the same.

          1. SenatorMeathooks*

            Yeah, and I had a graduating class of over 700- in high school with over 3000- so I’m not going to remember everybody.

        5. Katie the Fed*

          I’m weighing in super, super late, but –

          Studies have consistently shown that bullies rarely remember bullying people in high school. At best it’s a vague “oh I wasn’t that nice” but it leaves FAR more of an impression on the people who were bullied.

          1. fposte*

            Sure, but I don’t think that’s a tell, because it would also be a fair summary of a lot of teenagers. There were some people who managed to be really nice on a fairly consistent basis, but they were not the majority; most of us managed it sometimes and not so much at other times, and some people rarely seemed to manage it at all.

          2. DrAtos*

            Absolutely. I remember a SINGLE comment a girl in my high school class made to me that caused a other girls of her “clique” to laugh about. It was a grammatical error I made while making a statement. Of course she and her friends would not remember any of this, but it caused me much embarrassment because I was the poor kid from an immigrant family. I was already self conscious because of my socioeconomic status, and her comment hurt my confidence. A lot of things that the perpetrator considers to be minor or insignificant can cause an impressionable teen to want to curl up and die or go into hiding for the remainder of high school. So it is very likely that what OP considers to be forgivable will haunt OP for the rest of her life even if she is a superstar with a husband now. It appears from all of these comments that high school can either be one of the best or the worst period of a person’s life.

      2. many bells down*

        At our 20-year reunion, one of my friends confronted 4 of the people who’d bullied her. 3 apologized, citing various personal issues that had made them lash out at the time. The fourth one said … “Whatever, I don’t remember any of that and anyway it was a long time ago get over it.”

        I didn’t know the names of any of the people she talked to, but I was able to guess who #4 was. Yeah, that sticks with you.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Number 4 frosts me. The correct response is something along the lines of, “I am not clearly remembering all that went on, but I am profoundly sorry for the hurt I have caused you….’

          To me #4 looks like not much has changed.

    2. Nonanon*

      Arpai, I went through a lot of bullying as a kid with many resulting years of therapy. As much as I try to forgive and let it go, your comment pretty much sums up exactly my thoughts on those people.

      LW, it sounds like you wouldn’t have given your bullying a second thought if it wasn’t affecting your ability to get what you want. This, to me, sounds like you STILL don’t see your actions as an issue and I don’t blame the employee for never wanting to deal with you again (let alone on a regular basis).

      1. seejay*

        yep, I can agree with this. :/ As a target of bullies from most of my grade school and some of my highschool life (I say some, because I managed to figure out how to *avoid* it for the most part, not because the bullies stopped), the victims carry the damage around far longer than many realize. While the bullies move on and probably don’t give their targets a second thought as their lives moved on, victims are stuck with the scars and resulting trauma, sometimes having it manifest in ways they don’t even realize.

        I’ve forgiven some of mine… some that asked, some that didn’t. Some don’t realize they’ve ever had an impact, some have. But you never forget the damage they’ve done, and many of them I wouldn’t let within 50 feet of me ever again. It’s not because of a grudge, but because I don’t want those memories stirred up.

        1. Julia*

          This. It would also make me feel terrible to have to work with them because
          a) a part of me feels like they don’t deserve to be successful at work, at least not in my vicinity
          b) I’d have to pretend things were okay if I didn’t want to out myself as a victim (and risk being ridiculed at work for a “childish grudge”
          c) I’d always be anxious about the bully starting to bully again and bringing my co-workers into this or my boss
          d) I don’t need to be triggered with memories of past me just when I made a professional reputation for myself at work.

      2. Amber T*

        Yes. I have forgiven my bullies to the extent that I’ve moved on, I’m living a great adult life despite the bullying as a kid, and I don’t think about it or them often. But it would be different if I had to face them every day. OP, whether or not you have truly changed, there’s a good chance that person will always remember you and view you as “the bully,” especially if you’re only trying to make amends for a job.

      3. Just Another Techie*

        Yes agreed. I was an unpopular kid in high school and picked on, to varying degrees of severity, by a whole lot of my peers in high school. Some of them, if they ended up working with me now, I’d roll my eyes but put on a professional face and roll with it. Others, I absolutely would threaten to quit over.

        LW, this woman (she’s not a “girl” anymore, she’s an adult woman) has a great job. She’s won awards at her company. She has the respect and very likely also the admiration of her peers and her management. Even if she is a rock star in the field who could get hired anywhere, picking up sticks and starting over in a new employer is hard work with a lot of risk (what if the new employer has some kind of horrifying work culture that isn’t apparent at interview time? or just has That One Guy Who Always Farts In Meetings?) Believe me, no one would threaten to throw away a known good job over something minor. However you view your interactions with her, she sees them as a Very Big Deal, the kind she’d be willing to upend her entire life to avoid dealing with.

        3. bess marvin*

          +1 completely agree.
          Former middle- and high-school bullies have friended me on facebook, sending casual messages. I assume they have forgotten the extent of their behaviour. I wouldn’t want to hang out with them, but I’m not sure I’d quit my job over their hiring.

          If your former bully is willing to QUIT HER ROCKSTAR JOB rather than work in the same company with you, you might consider trying a little harder to remember your interactions with her before you pen any apologies? I’d expect the old “If I somehow offended you…” probably won’t cut the mustard.

          1. Erin*

            You’d probably piss her off more now that she knows you applied to where she works and are only apologizing to get on her good side. It will totally come across as disingenuous. Leave her alone, let her enjoy her success.
            If I were her I’d use the opportunity of you apologizing to tell you off.

        4. Katie the Fed*

          There’s also just a weirdness to having high school find you in your current adult job. I was socially awkward and rather picked-on in high school. A few years ago I rounded a corner at a government office and found myself face to face with someone from high school. She was so pleasant and nice, and had never been mean to me i high school, but I just wanted to curl up and die. WORLDS COLLIDING. It was like the threat of being outed as the socially awkward, nerdy friendless person I used to be would come back :(

          1. Julia*

            I would totally have the same reaction. I mean, I’d also hope that I could show (off) my super professional persona then, but probably, I’m just be an anxious mess.

          2. Bryce*

            I live next to my old college campus, they have a great relationship with the neighborhood and some nice places to walk even if you’re not an alum, but it takes a lot of willpower to set foot on there. Things got pretty dark at the time, and being there beings all the old mentality flooding back. It’s an understandable reaction.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I agree. I don’t mean to be harsh because I think it’s valuable and important that OP wrote this letter and understands that they were “not a nice person.” (Jessie notes this downthread, too, and I agree with her that this framing is pretty dismissive).

        That said, OP, I’m worried you’re minimizing what happened. The references to being “not a nice person” and then saying you were “probably pretty awful” to that employee but that you shouldn’t be “blacklisted” for something you did when you were 17 comes across as not fully acknowledging or understanding that you made someone so miserable that they would rather leave their (successful) job than work in the same company as you. And it also shows that although OP has forgotten all “awful” things they did to this person, they didn’t think much of it at the time or after. Meanwhile, the employee still carries the experience with her, years later.

        Like Alison, I think declining to hire OP depends on how terrible OP’s prior conduct was. Did you TP her locker? Ok, maybe not that bad. Did you harass her verbally or physically, ostracize her, or otherwise treat her cruelly? Then I’m 100% ok with blacklisting you. As everyone else has noted, I would have serious misgivings about working anywhere with someone who had bullied me or with someone who I had seen bully others, especially if I thought that that person was now making apologies for to benefit their own selfishness (i.e., trying to get a coveted job instead of actually regretting/atoning for what they did).

        I think this is a good opportunity for introspection and on whether it makes sense to make amends, not only to this woman, but also to anyone you may have harmed/impacted in high school. Not because you want a job down the road, but because it’s the right thing to do to be a decent human.

        1. Blaine*

          Perfect comment. I’d take this as a staggering lesson of your effect on others in your youth and work to make amends to anyone you may have bullied. I hope the change of bullying behavior was due to deep introspection and working to change. But your language suggests possibly not in which I suggest check-in with your current behavior towards others. What you believe you may have grown out of could just be existing in another form.

          This is a karmic present wrapped in a bow essentially.

        2. NW Mossy*

          I’d add that the OP also has to be comfortable with the fact that in some situations, amends are not possible. Lack of specific memory of the harm done is a major barrier; the severity (either objective or experienced by the victim) of the harm done is another.

          It doesn’t mean that one can’t apologize for one’s own benefit, but apologies are more likely to result in either a negative or null response more than they are a positive one, generally speaking.

        3. OP*

          I’ve been trying to chime in here, but I’m not seeing my replies. Not sure if they’re getting eaten by the moderation system. The situation was basically this was a girl I’d known all through elementary/middle school and we got close sophomore year when my family moved into the house across the street from her family. We started to spend a lot of time together, and she began to refer to me as her best friend, but I wasn’t hers. I started dating a guy she liked and stopped hanging out with her. I kind of took the friend group with me, and my understanding now is that she ended up feeling very alone for the rest of high school. I realize now, 12 years later, I absolutely could’ve handled it better, but I’d never ended a friendship before.

          1. Marillenbaum*

            Okay, when you phrase it like that, it does sound as though the title of this piece overstates the case somewhat. At the same time, I can understand (from having been on the outs socially in high school and beyond) how devastating it can be, and how even if something might not seem “that bad”, can still hurt enough to make working with that person a non-starter.
            OP, I would probably give up on applying to this company; from what you’ve said, it sounds like a non-starter. If you apologize, it should be with the knowledge that it won’t change things at this company. It sucks, but it just is how it is for now, and setting your sights (and your search) elsewhere seems like the wisest move.

              1. Annonymouse*

                I would.

                She turned someone into a social outcast because they had a crush on her guy.

                Whether OP meant to or not they caused a lot of damage and I’m sure there was a bit of “pick me or her” going on or at least no effort to include her in things that OP wasn’t involved in.

                That’s not something to be taken lightly.

              2. -Anonymous For This Post-*

                I would 100% want to know the details of how OP “stopped hanging out with her” before I’d be willing to say if I saw it as bullying or not.

                When I was in the 9th grade I had a friend who I had been close to since 7th grade abruptly drop our friendship. When I called to invite her to come hang out because I missed her and didn’t realize that our friendship had been ended she told me that, and I quote, “That’s never going to happen again. You’re so fat that it’s embarrassing all of us to be seen with you.” Because she was the leader of our group of friends everyone else fell in line and I spent from December to the following October friendless, scared, and depressed. (It’s also worth noting that at the age of 14 I was probably tipping the scales at a whopping 150 lb.)

                I’m not nearly as successful as Rock Star is (and I heartily salute her!) but if that girl showed up in my life I wold 100% freak out and not want anything to do with her. If I were in a position to block her being hired and working in a position where I would have to interact with her I would do so in a heartbeat. And I’m also 100% sure that she could and probably would describe our friendship “breakup” in terms as neutral as the OP is using.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Just FYI, the title of the post is from the OP’s email to me, so that was her characterization (not me inadvertently making it sound worse than she intended it to sound!).

          2. Wendy Darling*

            I’d be really interested to hear her version of those events, because that doesn’t sound like something so crushing that someone would quit their job to avoid you. I suspect the two of you have drastically different perspectives on what happened.

            1. Observer*

              I’m sure that the victim DOES have a vastly different view. There are two things that make me say this. Firstly, it’s quite possible to stop hanging so much with a person and not wind up cutting that person out of the entire friend group. So, you have to wonder just what really happened there. Secondly, even in this description this is STILL a lot more that a comment or two (ie “something she said”) and the fact that she was only 17 at the time isn’t really a “get out of jail free” card.

              That tells me that the OP’s perspective on this is probably a whole lot rosier than the other person’s and probably rosier than an outside observer might conclude as well.

              1. Holy Carp*

                I have to admit that I’m confused at the OP writing in the original letter “I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl” and following it up with “I started dating a guy she liked and stopped hanging out with her. I kind of took the friend group with me, and my understanding now is that she ended up feeling very alone for the rest of high school.”
                The first says she was likely engaging in bullying behavior and the latter is mere high school drama.
                It can’t be both, and if there is truth to the first statement, then OP shouldn’t apologize at all until she has worked that out otherwise the apology is going to be very insincere. As I stated much further down, this could be a time where some honest self-reflection is in order.

                1. fposte*

                  Or it could be valid self-reflection that she was an unpleasant kid to some people and could have been nicer to this maybe lonely and anxious girl across the street, and that today she’d have extricated herself from the situation in a way that wasn’t so hard on her former friend. If she’d phrased things the other way around I don’t think we’d have struggled with it; we’d just say that she might be being too hard on herself. I think commenters sometimes have a hard time imagining a letter writer being too hard on themselves.

                2. DrAtos*

                  The truth is probably found somewhere between those two statements. At first I thought, well, this doesn’t seem like bullying. But alienating someone, making her feel like nothing, turning an entire group of friends against her, and saying bad things about her to said friends and others is a form of bullying. High school drama can cause a person to commit suicide or seek years of therapy. Feeling alone and knowing that others think you are a freak and are talking about you behind your back could even make an adult feel depressed and inadequate. There is no other time that a person wants to fit in more than in middle school and high school.

            2. KTZee*

              Seconding this. There is a woman out there in the world somewhere who would might tell a very similar “side of the story” about what she did to me in 7th grade… but my experience of those events involved being ostracized and bullied horribly by every friend I had (never having been especially popular to begin with) and a ongoing anxiety and self-doubt about every friendship I’ve had since then, even now that I’m in my 30s.

              1. ElizaT*

                Oh my goodness KTZee , this is exactly me. 7th grade, ostracized by the whole class and bullied by every friend and now ongoing anxiety and self doubt even now that I’m 30. Whenever I see the main bully out and about or her profile pops up as a suggested friend on social media my blood runs cold and all the feelings of being small and worthless come rushing back. From what I’ve seen I am pretty certain she’s grown in to a much kinder and positive person and I even think we share a lot of the same values, but I would never be able to work with her – it’s not about personal vendetta, I just would feel way too vulnerable in that environment.

          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Someone recently asked me if I’ve ever gotten info from a letter-writer in the comments that changes my stance on the letter. This is one of those cases. This sounds more like relatively common high school friendship dynamics than bullying, and I can see more clearly why this feels unfair to you.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              To Wendy Darling’s point above, I do think it’s worth considering what her perspective might be and that there are probably details you’re forgetting (some of which might be worse than you’re remembering). But this is different than what I’d been thinking originally.

              1. AMG*

                Right. If there are that many people in the world who abuse another person and don’t even remember it, much less recall being friends with their target, it really makes me wonder what happened that the OP may have forgotten. Especially with the Rock Star drawing such a hard line.

                1. Karen D*

                  I dunno. I have been on both sides of this dynamic. I’ve had the friendcrush and been slapped down, and I’ve BEEN the friendcrush and wondered what I could possibly do without hurting the person who wanted something I didn’t want to give. My memory of the latter situation is that I tried really hard to be kind. I wonder how the other girl remembers it.

                  There’s a possible alternative explanation for Rockstar’s behavior – that she doesn’t want to acknowledge her own culpability in trying to force OP into a friendship she didn’t feel and needs to remember OP as the villain. Often that scenario produces more strongly negative feelings, because she doesn’t want to confront the reality of who OP is and who she always was, and in so doing unravel her own persecution story.

                  I’m not saying it’s likely, just possible.

                2. AMG*

                  Fair enough–I think we are on the same page where there seems to be a gap in how both people are remembering that same event, and it’s very unclear as to what the reason is.

              2. AGirlCalledFriday*

                I’m not so sure. I’m a teacher, and I’ve seen this sort of thing before. Usually what happens is that the girls gang up on the one girl they’ve decided to stop being friends with for whatever reason, and they talk about her, spread rumors, ignore her, and otherwise make her life pretty terrible. I’ve never, ever seen a case where one girl decides not to be friends, the other girls agree, but there’s no bullying. To take the friend group away is actually a form of bullying and it creates a very ‘us vs her dynamic which leads to more bullying. I can absolutely believe this woman blames you for a miserable time in high school.

                I think, whether or not she means to, the OP is minimizing the situation.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  I’m with you on this one so far. Maybe something down thread will change my thinking…

                2. Janey*

                  I don’t think people who haven’t experienced or seen this happen understand how it really goes. It starts with ‘I’m not her friend anymore’. Which really means, you can choose her or me, for everything. No one wants to be cut out, so they have to ‘prove’ they’re siding with bully. So then it’s laughing as she passes in the hall, sneering and turning away in the cafeteria. Making fun of her clothes, snickering if she drops a pencil, etc. Nobody wants that to fall on them, so making a new friend is almost always out. And knowing every single day is another horrible, painful, endurance test until you can finally get out of there for good. Then they say ‘we didn’t even say anything to her, how’s that bullying?’

                3. ArtsNerd*

                  I hope when you see this happen, you try to give the kids resources on navigating such difficult social circumstances as “I don’t want to keep hanging out with you.”

                  I’ve been ditched as a friend, and I’ve done the ditching. Mostly, my sisters ditched me as a play companion while my parents kept reinforcing the idea that conflict or difficult discussions of any kind are bad.

                  Understanding how to say “I’m not into this” or would have, quite literally, changed my life.

                4. shep*

                  Similarly to ArtsNerd, I’ve been both ditched and done the ditching. My friend circle was relatively drama-free (and we were all very proud, certified nerds), so there was just a kind of phasing out that happened.

                  And letters. I had at least two girls write me letters about how much I had “changed” from one year to the next (separate years, btw, so I don’t think there was one cataclysmic event aside from puberty and its subsequent trajectory that was at playu).

                  One girl was someone I had been trying to distance myself from for years, so it was a relief. The other seemed to come out of nowhere and stung pretty badly. (I have a suspicion it might’ve been over a boy that she’d, in our admittedly ridiculous high school way, had “given me permission” to date.) As an extension of that, one of our mutual friends also phased me out. I wasn’t as close to her, but I found out when we all started college that she’d said something along the lines of, “Yeah, Shep’s just not the type of person I want to be friends with,” and also made minor fun of me behind my back when we’d had classes together in high school.

                  Made me feel retrospectively like an idiot, because I’d occasionally ask if she wanted to get together on campus or go for coffee or something. I didn’t realize all the while she was holding me in contempt… :/

                  I think I could’ve handled all of it better–the ditching and being ditched. BUT. My core group of friends never changed. If that had been taken away from me, that definitely would’ve been very difficult. There’s nothing worse than feeling alone in high school.

                5. New hiring manager*

                  THIS. In 8th grade, my friend group decided, in one day, that they didn’t want to be friends with me anymore. I’m sure, looking back, all they remember is that we stopped being friends that year. What I vividly remember, however, are lunches spent crying, alone; them telling everyone I had horse hair and not to touch me; and them convincing half our grade that I wasn’t to be befriended. So I’m hesitant to just write this off as no big deal.

              3. Wendy Darling*

                Even if the LW isn’t forgetting anything, I can imagine circumstances where from where the LW was sitting it looks as they described, but from the bully-ee’s (can that be a word?) perspective it looked something like “LW stole my boyfriend and then made my entire friend circle turn against me. Because of what LW said about me I was a pariah for the entire rest of high school.”

                To the LW it sounds like this was not a big deal at the time, but to the person on the receiving end it may have been a huge, defining experience — it sure sounds like it was since they’d rather quit their job than have to see the LW every day! I’m not saying the LW is trying to mislead or is wrong at all, but people can have VASTLY different experiences of the same events.

                1. Jen S. 2.0*

                  Agree. I’m sure OP sort of knew it wasn’t fun for ex-friend, but…she ended up with a bunch of friends *and a boyfriend,* so she really didn’t have time to worry about it, and quickly and conveniently forgot all about how she got to the top of the heap.

                  Ex-Friend did not forget how that went down. At all.

                  (This reminds me of the old “yadda yadda yadda” from Seinfeld. People gloss over a LOT with one vague sentence. “I started dating this dude she liked, yadda yadda yadda, and then we weren’t really friends.” Um…what happened there?)

                2. Jen S. 2.0*

                  …and, Ex-Friend had to watch OP be Miss Social Butterfly with all of Ex-Friend’s former friends and her crush. Both at school and from across the street. Ouch.

              4. CB212*

                I think the characterization of the situation in some of OP’s subsequent posts (as Kfox) put it in a more familiar context of one girl being deliberately frozen out of the social group, to a point where at the end of high school she doesn’t have a graduation party because none of her former friends would come. And since OP seems to have been the driver of that isolation, I think ‘bullying’ is a pretty fair label. OP claims to have been unaware of how successful she was in excluding the girl, but also admits she knew she had gotten everyone to hang out with her and not with Rockstar, and that indeed nobody would have gone to Rockstar’s graduation party, so there’s some dissembling at play here.

            2. Natalie*

              Do you have any additional advice? It seems more unfair to me, but still not actually changeable, but I wonder if there’s a manager perspective I’m missing.

              2. Annonymouse*

                The only advice would be “try to change person you bullied mind to want to work with you”

                Which isn’t going to happen.

                It sounds like OP wouldn’t have thought about this person or their actions or reflected on it if it wasn’t an inconvenience for them.

                The best you can do is apologise sincerely for your past exact actions and then let this company go.

                You’re not getting hired while she works there and it sounds like she has no reason to leave.

          4. turquoises*

            That’s sad that things went so pear-shaped, but I think the best apology you can give her would be to respect the boundary that she’s set.

            So if you want to send her a message, I think it would be best to include something along the lines of “I totally respect your desire to not work with me, and I will not reapply.” It takes personal gain out of the equation, and proactively assures her that she won’t have to worry about you testing the boundary, trying to get a foot in the door, etc.

          5. Long Time Consultant, First Time Commenter*

            OP I don’t understand how everyone is agreeing with you that what you did was normal high school drama. To this girl, you upended her whole high school life- her crush, her friends, and you lived across the street from her. It may not have been intentionally cruel on your part but I’m not surprised she doesn’t want or trust bringing you back into her circle at work – she’s prbly afraid you’ll swoop in and “steal” everyone again.

            1. fposte*

              Because both of those things can be true. It can be normal high school drama and still be devastating.

              I don’t know what the OP actually said and did and what the other girl felt, of course, and I definitely think there’s the possibility that she was pretty mean–but there’s also the possibility that she wasn’t. It’s funny that so much of Captain Awkward is about your absolute right to detach yourself from people you no longer wish in your life, and that’s generally perceived as the kinder, gentler site compared to this one, while today we seem to be coming down hard on the OP for not staying friends with somebody. So are we saying in high school that doesn’t apply and you have to stay friends with people? What did other people do if somebody wanted to hang out with them and they didn’t want to–did they go anyway, and do they think that’s what everybody should do? What ways did people rebuff friendships that would be acceptable?

              1. Katie the Fed*

                I don’t think many of us have the social skills in junior high/high school to end a friendship without drama. Even our best efforts may blow up in our faces.

                OP may have been gentle about it and the woman may have had poor coping skills. There’s really no way to know for sure, as you’ve pointed out.

                1. fposte*

                  It’s made wonder if I’m somebody’s bully in memory, since my friends group changed and I didn’t always hang with people who wanted to hang with me. I think we all tend to remember the rejections we got better than the rejections we gave.

              2. Paul*

                Yep. I am a little shocked tbh. I’m also weirded out by people acting like not hanging out with someone is equivalent to sabatoging a job search.

              3. Junior Dev*

                This is bugging me too. I had a stalker in high school who I’m sure is still telling people I ruined his life by rejecting him. It doesn’t sound like the exact same situation, but I’m unsettled by how some people here seem convinced that ending a friendship is bullying.

                1. Annonymouse*

                  You chose not to hang out with one person.

                  You didn’t take all their friends away and force them to be a social outcast.

                  I’ve ended friendships but not sabotaged their relationships with mural friends.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Uh, your experience is not anywhere near comparable. There’s no indication that Rock Star was stalking OP or engaging in some other kind of criminal behavior. You’re saying someone in your life who terrorized you is analogous to someone who lost the person they thought was their “best friend” along with their entire friend group. That doesn’t wash. Avoiding your stalker is in no way the same as ending a friendship, which, depending on how it was ended, can absolutely be a form of bullying.

              4. Not That Simple.*

                A teacher up thread explained that she’s never seen this stop at just ending a friendship.

                She was saying that every single time she’s seen it happen, one girl is evicted by the group bully, the other girls go along with it, and the girl essentially stays isolated for the rest of the year / time at school, because no-one wants to go against the bully.

              5. LJL*

                Precisely. I was reflecting on what happened to me in high school: bullying, ostracism, typical high school girl stuff. The events aren’t so bad when they are told baldy on their own, but the effect and the vindictiveness behind it still leave scars.

                One of my major social bullies is now a vet in my town. Although it was typical high school girl BS, I will NOT take my pets to her. Silly, maybe. But it still stings and I can’t trust her.

          6. nonegiven*

            You took the friend group with you. That pretty much is admitting you were the leader of the ‘mean girls’ and left this girl without friends by cutting her out. Anything anyone of your group did or said that wasn’t nice, even looking away when she walked into a room, is on you in her mind.

          7. ..Kat..*

            I think you are still minimizing your behavior. You first refer to what you did as something you said. Right. If it was really so minimal, this other woman would not be threatening to quit over it.

        4. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

          I think it’s worth noting that OP says, “I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17” and also mentions “I’m in my late 20s” but says, “She graduated from college early and has awards people who’ve worked in our industry twice as long haven’t won.”

          It’s been ten years since the bullying happened. Rock star classmate went from a miserable high school experience where she was bullied to a college that clearly understood her and supported her enough for her to graduate early. Classmate is thriving, winning awards in an industry that isn’t used to recognizing young talent. Classmate rose above the actions of the OP who bullied and put her down. She survived, and unless OP has made amends that don’t benefit her, there’s nothing she can do that will change Classmate’s opinion. It would be worthwhile to offer an apology and acknowledge that while it may seem self-serving to apologize, you do mean it genuinely.

          I think OP also needs to consider that if this industry is small, it’s possible that this company’s blacklist could extend. If Classmate is on a national board, there may be repercussions on other levels.

          1. SleepyMel*

            what if OP got the job after all…this Rockstar could make their life miserable. At the very least it would be awkward. OP should move on and chalk the loss up to baddish karma, learn from this and find a different opportunity.

      5. Lily in NYC*

        Yeah, that’s what’s bugging me – the apology needs to be sincere and not just a way to get an interview. Even if it is sincere, I don’t think the employee will see it that way. I know I wouldn’t.

        1. 42*

          Exactly. I wonder if the OP has ever given the person she bullied even one single thought since HS. Or had any moments of introspection in the years since HS.

          As someone upthread perfectly said: OP, move on from this company. And if you ever have children of your own, raise them to be good people…that’ll be the best penance for your past behavior.

        2. Oscar Madisoy*

          “Even if it is sincere, I don’t think the employee will see it that way. I know I wouldn’t.”

          Exactly. If I was the rockstar in this situation and the OP came to me with an apology, my reply would be: “I don’t believe you. Why did you want until now to apologize? If you were truly remorseful, you would have gotten in touch with me earlier, when you didn’t have anything to gain from it.”

          1. Annonymouse*

            Yeah, the only way to spin it as sincere is “Until now I had no idea how badly my actions had hurt you. I had thought it was regular high school drama but I can now see it was so much more for you and I am truly sorry.”

            Also add you respect her feelings and won’t reapply there to round it out.

            1. SleepyMel*

              What’s funny is how convinced many high schoolers are that they will not be affected by the consequences of their behavior after school ends. So often the “nerds” rise up to become captains of their industry. Many of the socially awkward types I went to school with are now working for companies like Microsoft and Google- making major money while the socially dominant types are still scratching their heads about what happened, or posting on the internet about whether they should beg forgiveness. The moral of the story here is that you treat people decently on the way UP , on the way DOWN and every which way in between. Not just for the value of being a good person- that is just career survival advice.

            2. dappertea*

              I’m not sure if I agree with this. I understand the sentiment behind it, but without the bullied party having more context, this could read like it’s still putting the onus on the bullied party in maybe an “I didn’t think twice about it, but clearly you’re still obsessed with it, and I’m sorry about that kind of way” (this is obviously an extreme and cold version, but it illustrates how the other party might still be offended/unwilling to forgive because it could come off as dispersion of blame for their situation now). I think she would have to also address that she’s sorry about the lack of thought she had given the situation in general without making it about how the other girl has held onto for so long.

      6. Artemesia*

        This. It isn’t unfair that a bully can’t get what he wants. It is the magnificent karma of the Universe that is sadly so little in evidence. People can block the hiring of an ex just because he is an ex, which is a lot less ‘fair’ than this, but it isn’t always about fairness. Businesses have the right to preserve the comfort of their high performing employees over choosing someone they can’t work with. The OP should hope that he doesn’t have former victims scattered throughout the industry he hopes to prosper in.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Even as adults the way we treat people can come back and haunt us decades later. And that is a fact of life. I remember being 17, I thought I was all grown up. So did most of my peers, they thought they were pretty much grown up. OP, she remembers you as an “almost adult”, just like herself at that time. She has no reason to believe you have changed. She does know that she has worked like heck to get where she is and she had to overcome a lot to do it.
          She has finally found a place and a group who accept her. Let her have that. You had your turn at that and now you have to go find your own group of new people, just like she did.

          The irony is not lost on that it was okay for her to have to find all new friends ten years ago, but now that you want into her group, it’s different somehow.

          Sometimes the best way to get people’s forgiveness is to just leave them alone.

      7. Sami*

        Not defending the OP’s actions in HS but I rarely think of people I’m not actually friends with. I was never bullied and definitely wasn’t a bully but if the two aren’t friends (obviously) why would the OP be thinking about this woman? Especially since the woman has a different name.

        1. Amber T*

          That’s just it. Bullies can forget who they victimized, but those that were bullied don’t forget who bullied them.

          1. blackcat*

            It’s possible.

            Apparently, a guy in high school tried to ruin my life. He reached out to apologize when we were 22ish. I had ZERO memory of what he recounted, though I had filed him away as an “asshole I never want to see again.” I checked with friends. They remember him being an asshole–as did I–and they confirmed some of what he recounted. But my friends and I thought that he was just kind of a ass to a lot of people, and we ignored him. Though he had thought he had particularly targeted me, I didn’t feel that way.

            I suppose he was an ineffectual bully. But he was a bully.

        2. sunny-dee*

          And (in defense of the name thing), this woman could have a common first name. If I knew a Jennifer Smith in high school and then met a Jennifer Adams 10 years later, there’s no way I would connect the two without some other identifying trait.

        3. Annonymouse*

          But OP states in a comment above that this person regarded OP as their best friend then OP cut them out of their friend group when OP started dating a guy they both liked.

          So there are those optics to consider.

      8. sam*

        I was bullied by a teacher in elementary school. I’m 43 years old now, and I still have nightmares about her. As well as elaborate revenge fantasies.

        I mean, she’s probably dead, and almost certainly retired, but I still fantasize about walking into her classroom, knocking everything off of her desk, and forcing her to clean it up in front of her entire classroom.

        This is something she used to do to me because my desk wasn’t perfectly neat. I ran into an old classmate years later, and apparently she did this to lots of kids, which I honestly didn’t remember – I just remembered the abject humiliation of having to sit on the floor in the middle of class and have to pick up all of my books and papers – it’s funny how memories work.

        (This was just one of many things she would do)

          1. Detective Rosa Diaz*

            Omg I had a teacher do this to me too! She was a nun and she did it to lots of people. Woman of God ….

        2. anon for this*

          One of my primary school teachers used to get my school bag, empty the contents on my desk, go through it and comment on it in front of the whole class. Almost every day. I also have nightmares and revenge fantasies.

        3. many bells down*

          Oh gosh I had a teacher in 5-6 grades that would also dump the entire contents of my desk on the floor and then yell at me to clean it up. I’m a pile-filer, my desk was always full of papers but I knew where everything was.

        4. Dust Bunny*

          Dude, I think I had this woman! Shamed me for being disorganized. In first grade. I was Asperger’s (undiagnosed; this was the early 1980s) and depressed.

    3. Michele*

      Ugh. The sexual harassment that I endured in junior high because of my breasts. I have to be honest, when I heard that the guy was in a horrible motorcycle accident, I felt like it was karma.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My elementary-middle school bully’s mom and my mom are friends and keep in touch. Which is how I hear about things like my bully being sued into a smoking crater for stealing from her job. I feel quite smug about her misfortunes. (Especially since she wasn’t a bully because she had home issues or low self-esteem — she was a bully because her parents literally taught her she was better than other people. How’s THAT point of view going for ya?)

    4. Elizabeth West*

      My bullying wasn’t this bad, thankfully, though it was pretty awful. But it would depend on who it was–there are some people I went to school with who grew up and are perfectly nice now, and some I don’t ever want to see again. I wouldn’t mind working with the former but probably not the latter.

      And the fellow student who raped me in college? No f*cking way.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        On the other hand, I was also mean to another little girl–I turned around and did the same thing to her that other kids did to me. That’s no excuse, and if you’re reading this, Dana, I’m sorry. I wouldn’t blame her if she didn’t want to work with me either, even though we haven’t seen each other in over thirty years.

        1. KimmieSue*

          Elizabeth – Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that you had those experiences. I hope Dana reads this!

    5. Bad Candidate*

      Yeah I tend to agree. There was one gal who maybe wasn’t as bad as your bully, but she was horribly mean to her. She commented on a mutual friend’s Facebook status the other day and it made my skin crawl. I would not want to work with her at all. And TBH I don’t think I’d believe her if she ever apologized.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        If my bully apologized that would be nice but I still never want to see her stupid face ever again as long as I live. I’m not really upset about it, I don’t normally think about her unless my mom tells me something about her or the subject of bullying comes up. But there’s really not an apology that can cover over a decade of systematic mistreatment. I could be glad she was sorry but the best thing she can do for me is never come to my attention as long as either of us lives.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I got a written apology from my bully. I said, “Yep, okay, forgiven. Now if you really mean that stay out of my life for the rest of our days.” It’s been decades and she has. Very wise of her, I’d say. She got that part right.

          Look at it this way, OP. Someone runs a red light and center punches your vehicle. You end up with broken bones and a wrecked car. Time passes you get another car. More time passes and your bones heal. But maybe they don’t line up straight like they should. You decide not to have cosmetic surgery to fix the misalignment.
          While you forgive the person for hitting you, you remember that accident every time you look at your misaligned self in the mirror. And you remember again on rainy days when those formerly broken bones still ache.

          While it is possible for our bodies or our minds to reweave/reknit, there is still some residual damage that we will carry for the rest of our lives.

          1. Julia*

            This. You’ll become wary of red lights, of other drivers… And if you ever saw that person on the street again, you’d probably have a panic attack.

            1. Batshua*

              Or a car that looks like the one that hit you. Or a person who looks like the one whose car hit you. Or the intersection where you got hit, or one similarly arranged…

    6. Green Goose*

      Yeah, there are two people from my high school that were particularly cruel to me and I have actually had nightmares that they were hired at my job. As an adult, I am not easily intimidated by others and get along with most people I meet but I have been reduced to a ball of nerves when I’ve seen either of them since graduation or even if they randomly come up in conversation.
      Even though its been a long time, I felt traumatized by them and I could see it impacting my work if they started at my company and I would definitely have brought it up to a hiring manager.

    7. Tracey Campion*

      OP thinks she doesn’t deserve to be blacklisted for “something she said when she was 17”. I seriously doubt it was one thing she said – bullies rarely strike just once. This is the way it goes. Your actions have consequences. It may feel unfair to the OP; I’ll bet it felt painfully unfair to those she tormented in her youth. They did nothing to deserve her abuse; but she did do something to deserve the treatment she’s getting now.

  2. Bookworm*

    I can think of one person from high school who I would be unwilling to work with every day. However, that would change if they expressed to me what felt like a sincere apology and with an understanding of how their behavior was hurtful.

    OP, if you go that route, I would suggest running your apology by few people before sending (preferably someone who’s willing to be hard on you, not someone who always defaults to your side). Also, remember apologies are stronger if they make no excuses or defenses for the behavior.

    1. VroomVroom*

      Yea, per my comment below – I had a group of mean girls in high school. If they apologized now as adults, I’d be glad they’re not still a sh*tty person, but I wouldn’t want to work with them still.

    2. Cambridge Comma*

      I’d make a big distinction between those who were bullies at 12–13 and those who were bullies at 17, though. 17 is so close to adulthood that it would seem reasonable to believe that that is the person’s character rather than just a phase.

      1. VroomVroom*

        Yea – TBH I was kind of a mean girl to a girl in my class in middle school. But, she was really in my face about how I was a ‘prep’ and had ‘money’ and all this stuff (maybe I dressed like that but I didn’t have money. I was just a shy goody-two-shoes). I remember I wrote her a note one day that I was anonymous in and told her that she was a know it all and everyone wanted her to be quiet all the time.

        I happen to know she was super poor, one of 10 kids and her dad was never home/a drunk. I shouldn’t have done that, but it also didn’t happen in a vacuum – she goaded me into it (and honestly I felt kind of upward bullied). I don’t think she ever knew it was me, but I still feel like it was a bad thing to do.

        I also in elementary school was besties with another little girl, and then when we went to middle school I we drifted apart. I suppose I was kind of rude to her at times, but never outright mean… but I still felt like crap about it because the friends I drifted towards were considered ‘cool’ vs. hers were not (see my other comments… even ‘cool’ kids get bullied and have mean girls… per my other comments). I sent her an email a few years ago when she facebook friended me and apologized and she was totally like… I don’t even remember you being mean and you don’t have anything to apologize for.
        BUTT – I think I’m sensitive to things like that because I was also bullied by some mean girls in middle and high school.

        1. Bookworm*

          Oh, I had a group of girlfriends in the sixth grade and we all alternated being mean to each other for about a year. In a way, I think it was sort of practice for interpersonal conflict. But it faded by high school…And every one of those girls turned out to be a kind adult.

          I agree that I’d have more skepticism about a 17-year-old’s actions.

          1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

            I’m the mom of a sixth grade girl and fifth grade boy…them being bullied or being bullies themselves is one of my biggest fears right now. This past weekend my daughter had her first ever slumber party and I would only let her invite 3 girls. She didn’t invite one of her usual crew, which surprised me. Apparently the girl has started to be a bit mean and nasty. I was proud of my daughter for two reasons. The first was that she didn’t want to expose her other friends to that behavior and the second was – the girl who wasn’t invited found out about the party and called my daughter. She asked why she wasn’t invited and my daughter told her “I love you but lately you’ve been mean to me and to a lot of other people in front of me. I think for right now, until you can stop being so mean, we have to hang out in smaller groups.” The girl actually was shocked that she was coming off as mean. She asked for an example, which my daughter provided. The girl thought she’d been funny, not mean and was honestly shocked that it didn’t translate as funny. She said she would pay more attention to that. It was a fairly grown up conversation between two 12 year olds.

            1. EddieSherbert*

              That is super impressive. I don’t think I could of had that mature a conversation at 12 (from either your daughter or her friend’s shoes!).

              1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

                I know! They blow my mind with how adult they sound at times. Then they start going on and on about Steven Universe and they seem like 12 year olds again. :)

                1. Wendy Darling*

                  That’s one emotionally intelligent 12 year old.

                  Also I am a grown adult and I love Steven Universe. Maybe your kid and I should hang. She could probably teach me a few things about being cool to people.

                2. Astor*

                  That is totally a conversation I can see them having on Steven Universe, though :) That show is just full of emotional awareness.

            2. OhNo*

              Wow, that’s amazing from a twelve-year-old. I know people who couldn’t even have that conversation now, at three times her age! I hope you were able to tell her how great it was that she was able to do that. Hopefully a little positive reinforcement now means she’ll carry the habit into adulthood.

            3. TL -*

              Middle school age (and on to high school) is when kids are learning wit and empathy and they tend to learn them at different rates.

              1. Jo*

                Yes, this exactly.

                I first became friends with someone in middle school who eventually ended up being one of my best and longest friendships. However, when we first started hanging out in the same friend group in middle school I pretty much hated her.

                She came across as incredibly mean, even though she never really meant to be. She just had a quick tongue and wicked sense of humour and no restraint (the wit developed much quicker than the empathy) and I was shy and sensitive and thin-skinned and insecure.

                But eventually it all caught up with each other and we were extremely close by the end of high school. And now she’s a social worker with empathy in spades.

            4. PollyQ*

              When people talk about prodigies, they usually mean music or sports, but your daughter is a human relationships prodigy, and I am BLOWN AWAY by her ability to analyze a situation and then to communicate it.

            7. Not So NewReader*

              Nice job there, Anon, your daughter can come up with this stuff because you have provided her the foundation to work from. Very impressive person, your daughter.

            8. Julia*

              You give me hope for my future children and also humanity’s future in general. You must be a great mother, and your daughter sounds wonderful.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          I think you should stop feeling guilty – everything you describe sounds like typical middle school drama and not bullying.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              I have no idea what you are referring to. I still don’t see where VroomVroom did anything to feel guilty over.

        3. Veronica Sawyer*

          “even ‘cool’ kids get bullied and have mean girls”

          This is so true. I was part of the cool, popular clique in junior high and high school and I hated my friends. They were horrible people, but I knew if I *wasn’t* friends with them, they’d make my life worse than they did as ‘friends.’ I always compare my high school experience to Heathers. They were the Heathers, I was Veronica, but thankfully no one died.

          After graduation, I left my small town and never talked to any of them again. I was a b*tch in high school, but I also hated it there.

      2. Kimberly*

        I wouldn’t. When I heard the man, who as a boy had bullied me in K-5, was serving over 20 years in prison, I was over the moon. At the sane time, I was heartbroken that he had beaten and raped other women. If someone had taken us seriously when we told what he was threatening to do and trying to do to us in elementary school, maybe they could have been saved that pain. The phrase boys will be boys and suggestion well she should stop annoying him still make me see red. It took my parents threatening at Title IX lawsuit using some of the scariest and most powerful lawyers in Houston to get the harassment to stop.

        1. AMG*

          I would want to send copies of his court documents to every person who didn’t listen to you. >:(

        2. Julia*

          That’s awful. :(
          Now I wonder what happened to the guy who harassed me in high school and flunked out. I was grateful at the time because I was rid of him, but he probably had some real problems and I hope he didn’t do the same things your bully did.

    3. ByLetters*

      Seconding having someone else read the apology — as well as, after you write it, waiting a day before you send it. There are things you write in the heat of “the moment” that you’ll reflect later as not being appropriate to bring up in certain settings.

    4. Michele*

      That is a good point about having someone else review it (maybe the friend who tipped her off). Any apology that is “I am sorry you were…” instead of “I am sorry that I…” is worthless.

    5. all aboard the anon train*

      Seconding this, since in my experience, apologies like this often tend to be about the abuser/bully and not the victim. I’m always torn on apologies that come a long time after whatever event happened because they usually come when a bully or abuser is going through a program or wants something (whether it’s a job or forgiveness), and I don’t like that it makes it about the abuser/bully’s feelings and motivations instead of the person they harmed.

      OP should also be aware that the woman she bullied might not accept her apology and might not want to hear it, and that’s okay.

      1. Edith*

        Yeah, there is just no way this will ever come off as a sincere apology. If you’re only sorry about something two decades later when not being sorry means you can’t get the job you want, well then you’re not actually sorry at all. And that’s before considering all the indications in the OP that this isn’t sincere.

        OP: Apologize if you sincerely feel what you did was wrong and if you actually and sincerely regret it. If you think you weren’t that bad or it’s unfair to be held accountable for your actions you’re not actually sorry at all.

        Nobody wants an “I’m sorry” that’s directly preceded by “Johnny, tell Susie you’re sorry.”

      2. Rainy, PI*

        A guy who cheated on me sent me an email apology a year or two after I dumped him.

        It was two and a half screens long and said, I shit you not “I’m really sorry for the bad timing”. Not for cheating on me, but for the *timing* of cheating on me. I have no idea what prompted him to apologize. I didn’t respond. Receiving the email actually dredged up a lot of feelings that I didn’t need dredged up, and made me sad and hurt all over again, until I had an acquaintance who is a slam poet perform his apology for me.

        Now whenever I think of the “apology” I laugh.

        But I still hope he trips and falls into a woodchipper.

        1. Edith*

          That’s amazing.

          I got a random apology email from an acquaintance who lived on my floor in college. She had kind of stolen a boyfriend from me in that he ghosted on me when they started dating, but that was all on him and had happened months prior to the apology email. Then I realized it was Yom Kippur and she was atoning.

          Rachel from Henderson House, if you’re reading this, we’re good. He was the jerk.

          1. Property Manager*

            I notice that a lot of people here think that the apology can’t be sincere because the OP only thought to apologize for her own gain, more or less. And an example above, “Then I realized it was Yom Kippur and she was atoning.” So no apology can ever be sincere if there was something that triggered it? It has to just be a thought that comes out of the blue?

            Sometimes things need to happen to you to get you thinking … It doesn’t make the OP a horrible monster because she didn’t realize how negatively her past actions affected someone else until now. People are dynamic and ever changing and it’s perfectly acceptable for this situation to be the OP’s wake up call and her apology can be 100% sincere.

            Also mentioned somewhere upthread — it might bother the Rock Star to get the apology? Well she’s already bothered by knowing that OP applied and interviewed. The apology may go a long way in letting RS know that OP respects her now, which in my book, is huge.

            1. Edith*

              You’ve taken the worst possible interpretation of my words and run with them. I never said nor do I believe her apology was insincere. Not because it was Yom Kippur or for any other reason. All that did was explain the timing of what had seemed like an out-of-the-blue apology.

            2. all aboard the anon train*

              There’s a difference between an event or experience triggering a genuine apology and an event or experience causing someone to apologize because they want forgiveness or to gain something. Just as there’s a difference between someone telling you that you were a jerk and you should apologize and someone coming to that realization on their own.

              OP’s in a difficult situation because she had someone point out her behavior and apologizing now may come off as trying to gain forgiveness so she can get an interview, regardless of how genuine her apology may be.

              As to your last point, it might, but it’s also a different situation to know someone who caused you pain is applying to your company and actually having them reach out to you after years of no contact. It might also make it even worse. If the girl who was my friend in high school and then abandoned me and made physical threats against me when I confided I might be interested in girls suddenly decided to apologize and say she respected me, it wouldn’t go a long way. I’d just dredge up the memories of how she threatened to beat me until I was “taught a lesson”. She may have changed since then, but the scars from that – no matter how genuine someone’s apology – don’t go away.

          2. Rachel the Hendu*

            My name is Rachel, I lived in Henderson House for two years, and I did kind of steal a boy from a housemate in college (I hadn’t realized he was ghosting her when we started dating)…but I never actually sent an apology email to the girl in question, so this isn’t me. But you’re right, he was a jerk.

            1. Edith*

              Oh my goodness I almost called her Rachel from Hendu but thought that would seem too odd to outsiders. I don’t suppose Wombats and Maroons mean anything to you, do they?

              1. Rachel from Hendu*

                They do indeed! I lived there from 2004-2006. I am now sisters-in-law with a fellow Hendu who I met on her first day (she set me up with her brother post-college).

                1. Edith*

                  Yes! I was there 2003-2005. This is so crazy! And you’re right– I dug out the message you sent me at Yom Kippur and it had nothing to do with the guy, but about some awkwardness or rudeness between us. I wonder why my memory decided to twist it into being about him. I’m happy to hear you’re doing well, and for what it’s worth good memories of us going to the Chicago Diner and the Latke-Hamantash Symposium together are what I remember most about you.

        2. Rabbit*

          I once had an ex-friend send me a Step Nine email (Sex Addicts Anonymous) where he told me that he was sorry he’d sexually harassed me, but he hoped I was open to “constructive advice” because he’d thought a lot about it and had concluded that I should avoid wearing shirts that show cleavage.

          Needless to say, I was not open to “constructive advice”. (I do sincerely hope that he is successful in his ongoing search for self-awareness and improvement but I also kind of hope he gets testicular gangrene.)

            1. Rabbit*

              I think it was more that he seriously wasn’t ready to do step 9 than the program considering that kind of move okay ;)

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Jesus, Mary and Joseph. Talk about not understanding the purpose of amends.

  3. Jaguar*

    One other perspective to approach this from, OP, is that if you’re truly regretful of your past behaviour, regardless of your job prospects at this company, offering a sincere apology would also be offering closure (or, at least, an opportunity at closure) for someone that is obviously still bothered by how you treated them. You would potentially be lifting a significant burden from them and possibly yourself as well. This is all regardless of your career.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Hmm. Or it might be closure for the OP but an unwelcome intrusion for the recipient.

      1. LBK*

        Agreed. Closure is moving on with my life and never having to think about that person again. It’s not that person showing up at my doorstep and trying to apologize a decade too late.

        1. AD*

          I agree. As well-intentioned as the OP may be, if I were the employee in this case any effort to reach out would inevitably seem self-serving to me. I think Alison’s advice to move on is likely best.

        2. Amber T*

          I think OP should apologize, for closure and because it’s the right thing to do (assuming OP truly is sorry for how he/she behaved). But, the victim can choose to do whatever they want with said apology. They can accept it and hopefully help give them closure (college coworker apologizing to me for two years of awfulness was actually a wonderful thing… she explained where she had been coming from and her insecurities, but also knew it was not a good reason for how she treated me, and apologized. We haven’t spoken since graduation but my overall memory of her is neutral/positive, instead of horribly negative like it would have been). They can also completely ignore it and throw it out the window. Or, they can push back – “you say you’re sorry for A, but you don’t realize how B affected me.”

          1. Bookworm*

            I agree with you. Also, if propose people default to not apologizing because it might be upsetting to the victim, we’re letting a lot of people off the hook. There’s certainly a camp of people who would love to receive apologies. That said, people have the right to stop an apology in its tracks if they don’t want to hear it. A forced apology is no apology at all.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I agree, especially because OP has already done the equivalent of showing up on this woman’s doorstep by applying to work at the same company. So this isn’t a situation where the blast from the past is completely out of thin air… but even if it were, in general I think it’s better for people to apologize when they’ve done something horrible, even if it’s a late apology. What one ought not do is expect the person to accept your apology or be ok with you.

          3. Jen S. 2.0*

            And I’m not so sure OP is apologetic for her behavior and how awful it made Ex-Friend feel. OP is apologetic that her past behavior is costing her a much-wanted and hard-to-get job for which OP has worked hard, and OP doesn’t think her past behavior, which she dimly recalls, should be a dealbreaker.

      2. Jaguar*

        Might be! Who knows? A sincere apology e-mail is pretty low impact as these things go, the person can still choose to ignore it, and I think “don’t apologize when you’ve done something wrong because the person might find an apology unpleasant” is particularly good advice at all.

        I don’t think the OP should write something for the OP’s closure. I’m saying that OP should consider any overture to the person OP harmed in the past in terms of helping that person and not in terms of the OP’s benefit.

          1. LBK*

            I think an apology is probably still in order because it’s the right thing to do, but don’t do it in the name of providing closure.

            1. Jaguar*

              Well, maybe closure is the wrong word. I don’t really like the concept and may not fully understand it. I just mean it in the sense of trying to undo any harm OP did.

              1. AD*

                But that’s not what’s going on here. All due respect to OP, but I *really* think it wouldn’t have occurred to her to reach out to or apologize to this woman if this job in a really niche industry wasn’t the main factor. She’s not trying to *undo the harm* she caused – she wants a job in this small industry.

                1. Jaguar*

                  Sure. Only OP can answer those questions and I don’t want to build speculating on OP’s motives into what I’m saying. We’re only offering advice here.

                2. LJL*

                  Exactly. The timing of the apology would make it appear disingenuous if I were to receive it. It’s still a good idea, but be sure to make it sincere and unrelated to the job.

                3. Mephyle*

                  That’s one way to look at it, (that it wouldn’t have occurred to her to reach out or apologize if the job thing hadn’t happened) but 0n the other hand, if the job thing hadn’t happened, she would never have known that the other woman felt bullied. So the job thing set the chain in motion, but it doesn’t mean that she can’t apologize for pure motives.

              2. Seuuze*

                Closure is often over-rated and not always something that can and should happen. Sometimes you just have to move on and have “no contact” with a person you feel has wronged you of is toxic. Sorry Jaguar, harm is harm and can’t really be undone. And since we know every person is different, those who are bullied react very differently from one another based on their emotional makeup, experiences, home life, etc. Abuse is abuse.

                I would worry a great deal about the woman’s reaction to an apology if it wasn’t properly worded and extremely sincere. I think it should be a very thoughtful hand written note, sent throught the mail. The OP can possibly move to a different city for work since this career path is the one he has chosen.

                1. Jaguar*

                  harm is harm and can’t really be undone

                  Yeah, so this is not only provably wrong but also shockingly bleak.

                2. LBK*

                  I don’t necessarily disagree with Seuuze. Harm can be processed and you can learn ways to not let it affect you but that’s usually an internal process the victim has to go through, not something the person who harmed you can really do anything about. Apologies are nice but I don’t think they’re instrumental in healing, as evidenced by the fact that just receiving an apology isn’t usually enough to immediately heal the wound.

                4. Jaguar*

                  Well, there’s a number of people here that have already said that receiving apologies later on helped them let go of the pain they had received, so that alone is enough to prove that harm can’t be undone (unless you want to accuse them of lying or being delusional).

                5. Jadelyn*

                  @Jaguar, letting go of old wounds doesn’t undo them. It doesn’t undo having carried that burden and that hurt for years, even if you’ve finally been given a chance to set it down and not carry it anymore. “Healing” doesn’t equal “undoing”.

                6. Jaguar*

                  Well, we’re quibbling over words now. I’m responding to Seuuze who seems to be saying that there’s no way an apology could help the situation for the person OP wronged or for anyone else in similar situations. Whatever distinction you want to make healing and undoing isn’t obviously relevant to me.

                7. Annonymouse*

                  let me tell you a story we tell the kids I work with:

                  There’s s a young boy, around 10, and he has a horrible temper. He’ll often throw things and say mean things when he’s angry.

                  One day his father tells him “every time you lose your temper I want you to go hammer a nail into the back fence.”

                  And he does. Sometimes he hits his thumb and has to hammer an extra nail in. At the end of the first week there are 40 nails in the fence. After the second there are 60.

                  Dad tells him “now every time you hold your temper you can remove a nail from the fence”

                  After many months the boy finally removes all the nails and tells his father.

                  His father takes him down to the fence and asks him if it looks the same.

                  “No, there are marks from the nails I put in.”

                  The father tells him it’s the same with his words and actions.

                  “Even if you make it right afterwards, there will still be a mark where you hurt that person that will never truly go away. It might get smaller or less noticeable in time but it is and was there.

        2. Observer*

          On the other hand, apologizing because it might give the victim closure is ALSO bad advice.

          The only good reason to apologize is because you recognize that what you did was wrong (generic you). If you do NOT believe that, your attempt at “closure” is *at best* meaningless.

      3. PlainJane*

        Speaking only for myself here. I was bullied for years by someone I went to school with. She found me on MySpace about 20 years later and wrote me a lovely note of apology. I had long since moved on emotionally, but I really appreciated her courage and decency in apologizing. It definitely wasn’t intrusive for me. Certainly others may feel differently.

        1. Charlie*

          Unforced and unprompted comes from a different place than “Hey, so, you nuked my chances at getting a job where you work, so I wanted to apologize for whatever it is I might have done that made you feel that way.”

          1. Amber T*

            This! Receiving a real, sincere apology is a great thing. But I think the OP will have a difficult time making a sincere (and being taken as sincere) apology in this particular case.

            1. Erin*

              +1 it’s not like they saw each other at the gas station by chance and he apologized. He found out through a mutual aquaintance that she won’t work with him. And now he wants to write an apology afterwards to help change her mind. I think it’s a bad idea to write the letter. Apologize much later and if you ever see her in person by chance use that to make amends. Now it will look bad and maybe mark his chances in the future if he resubmits his application.

          2. Jaguar*

            I mean, the person can be cynical about OP’s motives (and maybe even rightly so), but so what? Maybe they won’t be. Write the apology anyway.

            1. Jaguar*

              That said, OP, if you do, be really honest about your intentions here. If you really are apologizing to help your career prospects instead of because you harmed someone, don’t send the apology.

            2. Charlie*

              Like I said elsewhere: it’s entirely possible that the apology would cause more hurt and anger than if the OP just let it be.

        2. BioBot*

          I think this is a slightly different case, though. Your bully remembered what she did and knew, unprompted, what degree of effect she’d had on you. She came to regret her actions all on her own. The LW doesn’t seem to remember specifics, they just suspect they were probably awful to her because apparently they weren’t very kind to lots of people. They also only seem to be sorry because now it’s coming back to hurt them. I think it would be hard to draft a truly sincere letter of apology if the LW can’t even remember what they did or to whom they did it.

        3. Anon Librarian*

          If my bully sent me a note of apology, even if it was unprompted, I would probably burn it.

      4. Purest Green*

        I agree. Just because OP has her work email doesn’t mean (s)he should use it, especially considering this wouldn’t be a professional correspondence.

        1. Amber T*

          Oomph yeah I didn’t catch that it was a work email. I’d avoid the work email altogether and opt for LinkedIn if that’s an option.

      5. Connie-Lynne*

        This. I’ve had a number of people over the years reach out to me to apologize for treating me shabbily, and I never know what to do or say when I get these apologies. I mean, I’m glad for them that they have finally done some introspection, but to me it always kind of feels like it’s about them needing to feel forgiven than about wanting me to have closure (which I achieved long ago in all these cases).

        1. Annie Moose*

          Do you think it would help if someone explicitly said something like “don’t feel obligated to respond, I just wanted you to know how sorry I am”? You know, explicitly telling the recipient that they don’t expect to be forgiven or whatever.

      6. Turtle Candle*

        I’m afraid that that’s how it would be for me. Most of the time, I don’t think about the people who harassed and bullied me in middle school. What I want more than anything is to be able to go on not thinking about them at all.

        And even more so because there’s a strong social expectation that you’ll say something, oh, healing and closure-ing if you get this call, you’ll give them forgiveness or absolution or something. If the apology is made, it has to be with the knowledge that a response of “I’m still angry with you, and I still will not work with you” is a completely legitimate response, and not a sign of meanness of being “small of spirit” or whatever all else.

    2. Advice Column Junkie*

      I’ve gotten emails from people who apologized for being awful to me when I was an awkward little genderqueer mostly-lesbian in middle and high school, and let me tell you: it didn’t do shit to give me closure. I already had closure. What they wanted out of me was yet more emotional labor, as if I hadn’t done enough already on their account, to forgive them and reassure them that they could still consider themselves okay people. It was an imposition of burden, not a relief.

      1. sb*

        I mean, there’s a way to apologize where you don’t expect anything in return and understand that you aren’t looking for emotional labor from the person you’re apologizing to. (I trust you when you say that’s not what happened to you. Just saying it’s a thing.)

      2. Mike B.*

        When you put it that way, it sounds like there’s no altruism in the world at all–people act merely to feel the pleasure of having done good, or to relieve the pain of having done harm, and other people are just pawns in their heads.

        Which is a valid philosophy, I guess, but kind of a depressing point of view. I prefer to take things of this nature at face value and would accept those apologies.

      3. anon druggie*

        In my 12-step program, we frequently tell people what we did wrong, why we are sorry, and ask what we can do to make it right. Then stop talking and listen. Trying to set it right for the other person is to avoid doing the amends with unclean intentions. There are other steps to relieve ourselves of the burdens of who we became and try to become a better person.

        I’m sorry that happened to you.

        1. ArtsNerd*

          I hear that, Advice Column Junkie. I’m sorry you had to go through that. I’m waffling on an unsolicited apology for the same reason, even if sincere and divorced from OP’s interest in the job. It takes a certain mastery of phrasing to apologize without tying it to an implied request for validation or forgiveness. It is possible, though. I hope OP can keep this in mind as they make their decision.

          anon druggie, unfortunately in my ex’s interpretation of that step, my not wanting to talk to him about his wrongdoings just escalated back into the same angry harassment I think he was trying to apologize for. Took another year or so for the phone calls to stop :/

  5. AnotherAlison*

    Oof, I think Alison’s advice is spot on.

    You need to give up on this company for now. I had a high school bully, and it wasn’t even that bad of a situation, and I would never want to work with her. I actually know she’s a changed person, as she has publicly found God, but that doesn’t change how I feel. Keep the past in the past & give yourself a fresh start, too.

    1. Another Lawyer*

      Yeah, that’s basically how I feel about mine. They were mean, it wasn’t fun, I don’t have good opinions of them, and I don’t want to see them at work.

    2. Queen of the File*

      Same here. It took me ages to find a place where I felt like I was seen as confident and successful and not like the loser I was seen as in high school. To have to see myself through my high school bully’s eyes at work–even if they’d grown up–would totally ruin how I feel at my job. I would also be terrified that they would tell all my coworkers about the humiliating things I went through. No thank you.

    3. Banana Sandwich*

      Agreed! I had a bully in middle school and she actually did end up coming to me and apologizing. But, once someone makes you feel like dying would be better option than showing your face in school – your pretty much done forever. I forgave her but….I really never want to see her face ever again.

  6. Anonymous Educator*

    I know this isn’t what the OP asked about, but if I were the acquaintance, I wouldn’t have asked the OP out for coffee. I wouldn’t have said anything. What’s the point? The OP isn’t going to get a job at that company any time soon. Now the OP just feels extra douchey for stuff from long ago… with no practical actionable item. As far as I can tell from the letter, the acquaintance isn’t relaying a message that the former classmate would like an apology. For all we know, the former classmate may never want to hear from the OP again, apology or not.

    1. paul*

      Their practical action item is to stop wasting time and energy applying at that particular company.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        That’s not what happened:
        My acquaintance’s prediction appears to be true: I didn’t get an interview for a new position at the company that would’ve been an even better fit than the one I’d interviewed for.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Fair enough. I still probably wouldn’t have gone out of my way to do that. People applying multiple times for positions at the same company is the exception and not the norm.

            1. OP*

              I left my desk for a couple hours and of course that’s when the letter goes up! I’m going to try to jump in here.

              In this industry, it’s actually really, really common to apply for several jobs before you are hired. I made it to the final round in an earlier hiring pool and was encouraged to apply again when this most recent job was posted. That’s why I was so surprised to not get even an interview.

              1. Really anon teacher*

                So here is the thing. I’ve read your clarification response. I am a teacher. You were a bully . You isolated someone. Your friend group (clique) turned your backs on her. I can imagine there were looks and non verbal communication that emphasized how “out” she was. You were a mean girl.
                My recommendation is to read more about the harm this behavior causes and find a way to make true amends . A novel that may instill some understanding is The Takedown by Corrie Wang.

                1. ArtsNerd*

                  I hope when you see this happen, you try to give the kids resources on navigating such difficult social circumstances as “I don’t want to keep hanging out with you.”

                  I’ve been ditched as a friend, and I’ve done the ditching. Mostly, my sisters ditched me as a play companion while my parents kept reinforcing the idea that conflict or difficult discussions of any kind are bad.

                  Understanding how to say “I’m not into this” would have, quite literally, changed my life.

                2. Bibliovore*

                  May I recommend Odd Girl Out by Rachel Simmons? She discusses strategies for parents and teachers to recognize and intervene in these situations.

    2. Roscoe*

      So they know why they aren’t getting a job there anytime soon. If I was in a small field with only so many jobs, I’d want to know that my chances of getting one at a certain company was non existent so I don’t waste my time

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      Nah, the acquaintance was being kind and offering OP information that she/he needed to make their next career move. OP isn’t mad about the coffee chat so I don’t think we should be either.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I don’t doubt it came from good intentions, and I’m not mad about it. I’m just saying I wouldn’t do that, and I don’t see what the actionable item from it is.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Sometimes you don’t get an actionable item. Sometimes you just have to live with what you own.

        2. Sadsack*

          Well, it made OP recollect his actions and admit to himself and us that he treated someone very badly and should probably apologize. That is actionable.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Nope. An apology now, having been rejected for two jobs, will just look terrible. If there’s an action item here, it’s “broaden the job search and do some soul-searching while you’re at it.”

            1. esra*

              I still think it depends on the apology. If you acknowledge that it shouldn’t have taken the job rejections to make it happen, but that you still wanted to apologize anyway… I don’t know. I’d be open to that. If it never comes to anything, so be it, but at least you tried to make it right.

              1. Ashley*

                I politely disagree.

                OP is sorry because it is effecting him negatively. His past actions haven’t bothered him enough to make things right until now. Now it is too little, too late.

                1. esra*

                  Judging from the reactions here, it might just be best to move on. I’m the type who would want a (genuine) apology with no expectation of action, but opinion is clearly mixed.

            2. Sadsack*

              I might agree with you on that. I think it depends on how sincere the apology is. A generic quick one would be worthless. But a heartfelt one that maybe includes examples of things that OP now can recognize and admit were terrible might be better accepted. OP should give up on trying to get into this employer anyway.

              1. Advice Column Junkie*

                Having been contacted by former bullies, honestly, I personally just don’t give a shit about their closure. I already did enough emotional labor on your account, and I’m not doing any more.

                1. Emi.*

                  I think it depends. I wasn’t bullied in highschool, but I had an emotionally abusive gaslighting “friend” in college, and if she ever showed up with a genuine apology, it would help give me closure by validating that I was actually justified in being hurt by her.

            3. Observer*

              That can be hugely important piece of information, especially if you have to think about moving to a different city.

          2. Robin B*

            And maybe OP will reach out to others from their past and make amends….. who knows it might pay off for some future job application.

        3. Student*

          The actionable item is to move on and look for job prospects elsewhere. It sounds like the OP would need to either change location or change job fields – the coffee acquaintance is letting OP know it’s time to pick one of those options, because OP is currently banging her head against a closed door.

          1. Tuxedo Cat*

            That’s how I saw it. At one point, I was applying for a lot of jobs at an institution that basically hires its alums. It took me awhile to figure it out. I would’ve preferred having someone tell me that than have me waste my time applying for the jobs and feeling bad that I wasn’t getting selected.

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      Especially in such a niche market, while it would be incredibly awkward to find out, I’d appreciate knowing if there was that sort of personal-level conflict going on instead of it being something about my qualifications or cover letter or whatever.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yes. The realistic option is to apply other places, because you aren’t getting hired here.

        Same if the problem were that, say, a Valued Employee didn’t want to work with you, the person who stole their college sweetie. Or who knew you as a total goof-up at a previous job. You don’t get another chance to make a first impression, and the company probably doesn’t care to experiment with leopards and spot-changing by hiring you over Valued Employee’s “I will quit” objections.

    5. MK*

      I read the timeline differently: The OP interviewed once, didn’t get the job, but was invited to reapply, which presumably means the old schoolfellow hadn’t heard that the OP was asking for a job in her company (otherwise the OP wouldn’t have been asked to reapply). Then a new opening comes up, the OP applies again, the schoolfellow learns of it and declares she will leave if the OP is hired. Then the OP’s friend finds out the OP has been essentially blacklisted from the company and tells her.

      In any case, the “actionable item” from the friend’s perspective is to save the OP time and energy; that the OP might have chosen not to heed the wanring doesn’t make it pointless.

    6. Jessesgirl72*

      Am I the only one now wondering if the acquaintance wasn’t sent to the OP by the Rock Star, as a kind of “Nyah, Nyah! Look at me now!”

      I am a mature professional, and I try my best to be a good person.

      However, I would get a certain amount of satisfaction if I had the power to keep my high school bully out of my company- and if she’s that much of a rock star, possibly the entire industry. And I’d probably want her to know why…

      I don’t think I’d ever actually do something like that (other than make sure I never had to work with her) but I’d certainly fantasize about it!

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It’s possible, but my strong suspicion is that the acquaintance was just trying to do OP a favor by encouraging them to stop wasting time applying. But if the acquaintance went as an emissary of the Rock Star, that’s pretty crap behavior on the part of the acquaintance and the Rock Star.

        I’m with Beyonce—always stay gracious; best revenge is your paper.

      2. sunny-dee*

        I didn’t get that, only because the person is a friend of the OP. A friend (or friendly acquaintance) wouldn’t usually be interested in rubbing someone’s nose in the dirt (and if the victim wanted to do it, then they probably wouldn’t want to do it vicariously).

      3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        This is purely my personal opinion based on my own experience with this situation:

        I think rock star employee may be quite annoyed/embarrassed to find out that someone went to bully and shared the fact that her current successful self is still concerned about being affected by this person. I think rock star employee would prefer to feel nothing about high school bully over joy at karma.
        Karma gets you some balance, but bully is still winning if he/she’s living rent free in my head.

      4. Erin*

        I got similar satisfaction, I used to be fat, goth with glasses and braces. I lost weight and got lasic eye surgery. One of my bullies didn’t recognize me and actually hit on me, he thought I was someone else named Megan. I told him that he was a real jerk in middle school, left it at that and that no he’s not invited to my barbecue.

    7. Holy Carp*

      Here’s another way of looking at it…The OP only really reflected being an awful person when it directly affected her and hadn’t seemed to have given it a thought otherwise. So maybe she’s truly a changed person who is wonderful now, or perhaps she exhibits behavior that, while not as overtly obvious, can still be hurtful. I have seen personally that mean girls and bullies often turn into mean woman.
      Now, I’m not making that claim about the OP, but I am saying that being aware of this situation could give her the opportunity for some real self-reflection and realizing that she doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

      1. Mike B.*

        A few people have posted variations on this. I’m not sure how harsh an indictment it is of her that she hasn’t, until recently, reflected at length on the poor way she ended a friendship when she was in high school. At the time it happened she wasn’t mature enough to handle it better, and a whole lot of things have happened in her life since then.

    8. BioBot*

      I think the “actionable item” is to stop wasting their time with this particular company, because there’s nothing they can do, professionally speaking, that will get them a job there. They can’t get more experience, write a better cover letter, interview better, etc.

  7. paul*

    So, I was bullied in high school. Some of them I’d be OK working with, some of them I wouldn’t. But fair or not, you don’t really have any power to force them to hire you. And if the worst of them contacted me now, I sure as hell wouldn’t be anything but skeeved out and slightly nervous (keep in mind, I’ve got physical scars from some of it).

    So even that could backfire. It sucks for you now, yes, but them’s the breaks sometimes. I’d look at jobs in different companies and cities; maybe ask your acquaintance to let you know if the rock star moves on so you could start applying for jobs there again?

    1. Lala*

      I would be absolutely freaked/terrified if my high school bully found my email address and contacted me for anything, even an apology. I’d block the shit out of an email like that.

      And not to bash the OP, but seriously, this is the sort of revenge people being bullied fantasize about getting later in life…OP, your chickens have come home to roost. At least someone was nice enough to let you know not to waste your time on that company anymore.

    2. michelenyc*

      I wasn’t necessarily bullied but if I had been I would not want to receive an e-mail apology at work.

  8. KHB*

    If all you can say is that you were “probably pretty awful to this girl,” it doesn’t sound like you’re even clear on what specifically you did to cause her to be upset with you. That doesn’t bode well for issuing an apology that she’s likely to accept – it’s likely to come across as “I don’t know what I did, but I’m sorry you were offended by it – now I demand that you forgive me.”

    Are you in touch with anyone else from high school who can give you a reality check on how your behavior looked from her point of view?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I like that idea. I have two friends who are like vaults where they store vivid memories of everything I did in high school, and they are always able to fill me in on details I’d forgotten (this is both good and bad).

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        I have a friend like that too. I’m amazed how much she remembers. Ironically, she was nice to me in like fourth and fifth grade, mean to me in sixth seventh and eighth (teased me about my clothes and lack of makeup), then suddenly nice to me again in high school. We reconnected several years ago and we’ve never mentioned those “mean years”. I’m much more confident now and have a “f’em if they don’t like my clothes or whatever” attitude now and she’s clearly matured as well.

      2. Artemesia*

        Memory is interesting. I met an old high school classmate many years ago who went on and on about how close we were in high school. I remember her as a vague acquaintance. Then I looked at some pictures of key events — me getting an award, our graduation party etc etc and there she is hovering near me in these pictures. So SHE felt close to me even though I thought of her as a sort of third tier acquaintance/friend during that time.

        1. Charlie*

          This is how it worked with a girl I was friends with. She thought of us as dating. I thought we were friends. But then I thought back to all the times we went for pizza or hung out at each others’ house and so on, and I was like, huh. Maybe we were.

        2. Gen*

          Yeah I was that girl for about five years- I thought there were six of us all best friends, turned out to be a four and a two. The other four hated us tagging on all the time but didn’t know how to get rid of us and we were oblivious

        3. OP*

          It is very much this situation. I moved into the house across the street from this girl’s family, we spent the summer hanging out, but we weren’t really school friends when classes started in the fall. I tried to put some distance between us, but then I started dating a guy this girl liked and it just got too weird. Most of our mutual friends stopped hanging out with her after that. I found out several years later (around the time we graduated from college) that she felt very alone and isolated and blamed me. I don’t know if what I did was bullying, but that’s the language she apparently used with her coworker, so I am trying to respect the fact that she felt bullied by me even though that was not my intention.

          1. OhNo*

            That’s a good way to approach it. Especially in situations like this, where it clearly stuck with her for a long time and to a significant degree, impact is more important than intent.

            It sucks, especially when you feel like you’ve been badly misinterpreted, but sometimes all you can do is back away and give the person their space.

          2. Rainy, PI*

            You took all her friends away because you felt awkward when you started dating a guy you knew she liked…so…

              1. CB212*

                In comments further down the page, OP describes how she made it clear that she wanted Rockstar dropped from the social group, and that by graduation she had effectively ensured Rockstar had no friends.

                1. Roscoe*

                  Even if she made it clear she didn’t want to hang out with her anymore, it was the other people who made the choice to do so. If she had no friends, you can’t blame OP for that

                2. Charlie*

                  Yes, actually, you can. Since you self-admit that you’re pretty clueless about bullying, I suggest you take the opportunity to learn and reflect here, not continue to assert about a topic you’re not that informed about.

              2. AMG*

                No, she went out of her way to bully rockstar. She’s liable for that. Which is the point, Roscoe.

            3. Roscoe*

              You can’t really take friends away. They aren’t toys. If they want to leave, that’s their choice. Now she could say “I’m not hanging out with this person anymore”, and if those girls choose to stay with OP, then thats on them

              1. AMG*

                She can choose to treat rockstar unkindly, whichever she did. The other kids played a part too, but that doesn’t absolve OP from her role.

                1. CB212*

                  Agreed. OP describes herself as wanting to get everyone to hang out with her and not with Rockstar. Setting up that kind of me-or-her choice leading to the shunning of one girl is a really common dynamic in teen girl groups and is (rightly, I think) seen as bullying.

              2. -Anonymous For This Post-*

                You’ve never been an adolescent girl, have you? This is incredibly common in junior high and high school, and yes, it’s bullying. It happened to me and there’s several teachers commenting to say that they see it happen frequently.

                1. LJL*

                  exactly. Some evidence suggests that it may be harder to recover from than from the physical kind of bullying. It is incredibly common in adolescent girls. It’s happened to me as well.

              3. Annonymouse*

                Actually in high school you can.

                In high school the social group your in is a social currency.

                They’re the people you sit with at lunch and in classes so you don’t have to fend for yourself.

                By OP excluding one person and making people pick sides (even if they didn’t ask it naturally happens) she tossed rock star to the wolves.

                And the way it works is once someone picks the couple over the single they all do unless other girl is sufficiently rich /has other currency that makes her more valuable.

                Being a good person or smart = squat. She’d need to be a sports teams star player or consistent lead in all the school plays or head cheerleader to have enough popularity currency to deal with this.

              4. Marisol*

                It sounds like the OP had more of an active role in kicking her out of the group that, but the others had agency and for that matter, so did Rockstar herself. The OP isn’t totally absolved in my opinion, but I think you have a point.

              5. Tempest*

                This is a really tone deaf impression of high school. A popular mean girl absolutely can make it clear that their friendship will be removed from all the lesser members of ‘her herd’ and due to high school’s dumb politics equaling loss of popularity with death, if Kfox was the leader of the popular squad and then made the squad clear on the fact that anyone who didn’t drop rockstar would similarly be shunned, she really did take away all the friends from this girl due to the herd mentality school kids have. There have been many teen movies made about this and they all hit pretty close to home, just most of them have a cheesy Disney ending that most real life victims don’t get to experience.

              1. Annonymouse*

                In high school it’s a hierarchy.

                If King Joffre is excluding someone you go along with it to secure your position even if you like the Starks or Tyrion better. It’s all about survival.

                You go with the other person and you’re buying a one way ticket to exclusion ville.

              2. seejay*

                Getting ostracized by a social group is a one-way ticket to being on the receiving end of bullying. You want a social group in order to fit in and protect yourself. Larger groups are less likely to be picked on, and even if they are, at least you have *some* protection or a feeling of safety. Bullies go after loners or small groups.

                You don’t want to be the one person left behind with the ostracized person when the ring leader decides to walk away. And the ring leader usually has something that everyone else desires or wants to be or admires.

                There’s a select few kids that get enough of an “I don’t give a squat” attitude or have the self-esteem to stand up for themselves. Sometimes they’re the ring leaders or sometimes they’re the nice kids that don’t care about being in a social group and they like everyone and everyone likes them. I recall a few people in my highschool like that, but they’re rare. Most kids and teens don’t have the tools to be able to figure that stuff out yet, they’re still trying to figure themselves out and trying fit in. I wouldn’t tell a young kid or preteen to be themselves and be unique unless they had a serious case of “screw you, I like it, I’m doing what I want and I don’t give a fig what you think”. If they have even a smattering of self-doubt, they need to figure out how to blend in and fit in with everyone and then figure out how to be a unique individual when they have the ability to withstand the mocking.

                Most people want to belong to a group and kids/teens are no different, at least until they figure out how to navigate social norms and can flip the bird to it and walk their own way.

                1. Rey*

                  I think I was one of those kids who didn’t care what other people thought and was nice to everybody and pretty well liked by everybody. (A friend in high school, casually mentioned to me that she thought that if I ran for class president I would likely win, because everyone knew me and liked me–it was a really weird moment, because for all I was liked, I wasn’t popular.)

                  But that came from a very specific place–I grew up with a LOT of medical problems and was in and out of the hospital most of my childhood with one surgery or another. I developed a very independent and self-confident personality partially as a reaction against the constant physical invasion. It wasn’t an act (or posturing of any sort)–it was a way of coping. I learned early on that whatever state my body was in, I was still me, and I knew who I was. That self-knowledge blunted most of the bullying and pressure to conform. I did what I wanted and liked what I liked and I didn’t care or give any thought to what nearly anyone else thought.

                  But it has also made it difficult for me to empathize with those who are more prone to following along for the sake of being liked or not ostracized. It is a mindset that often makes me far more judgmental than I should be.

              3. Hrovitnir*

                I’m going to reply here but there are a lot of subthreads and I’m not sure if it’s the best one. I must say I object to the idea that choosing not to be friends with someone any more is inherently bullying. I think insisting that everyone be included always can be easily abused by bullies and it also teaches people they are not entitled to choose their relationships.

                However, in light of the OP’s comments below about actively wanting her friend group not to spend time with her ex-friend and “maybe” saying some mean things about her… it certainly sounds more like active ostracisation (is that a word?), and I most certainly class that as in the realm of bullying.

                WRT the letter itself I lean toward not apologising unless and until there is no underlying motive, and also accepting that maybe the consequences of your behaviour are that you’re going to have to look at finding a job elsewhere. I agree with people that the comments about it not being fair for this to be held against you belie your statements about trying to be respectful of your ex-friend’s viewpoint – I’m pretty sure you are trying to be respectful, but it’s worth examining.

                I don’t think you (OP) need to take on board everyone’s pain on this thread, but the way you present your letter does make me think you need to at the very least work on understanding bullying and social ostracism as having far reaching consequences for those on the receiving end.

                1. Annonymouse*

                  Again there is a difference between drifting apart from someone or spending more time with other people in your group and what OP did which is to take away all friends and be a part of the mean comments that followed.

              4. Charlie*

                Ket, did you somehow skip from age 8 to age 20? Of course the friends all went in one direction.

          3. Clewgarnet*

            I was in a similar situation to this woman. Unless she’s a far nicer person than me (which is, I admit, very possible), you’re never getting hired anywhere that she has any influence.

            She remembers you as the best friend who dumped her over a boy, and then shoved her out of her friend group, leaving her socially isolated at a very, very vulnerable age. I appreciate that’s not how you remember it, and you didn’t realise how badly you were affecting her, but that’s how she remembers it, and those are the scars she carries.

            In these circumstances, I wouldn’t want to hear from my bully, and any apology would come across as self-serving and insincere. Cross this company off your list of possibles and move on.

            1. blackcat*

              Yeah. It’s also possible that the boy in question did something awful to her, too, and OP reminds her of the entire thing.

              1. Charisma*

                I actually suspect as much as well, but have been avoiding bringing it up since they are presumably long gone.

          4. Charisma*

            I’ve seen you repeat this in a few spots and I get it. It IS totally justified to think you may be mean to someone, especially as a youth, without overtly wanting to be, or because of not knowing how to properly deal with a situation. But if you really want to solve this situation. It would really help you, and the Rock Star employee, to seek out a genuine third-party perspective of someone else who was actually there during your time in Middle and High School. Dig deep and find out both sides of the story and maybe even what else it was that happened to her that she may blame you for. Something tells me that there is more going on than you realize or wish to see. You have made a great first step. But if you really want to make this eventually go away (as a possibility, not a certainty) you need to dig deep and look at this from a wider lens then yourself.

            1. curiouserann*

              Admitting that you didn’t have the insight or social skills for the situation is perhaps a major part of the story. You can be sorry for the hurt caused by your choices, whatever the intentions. And if the OP and the Rockstar are miles apart on their memories of what happened, perhaps a legitimate approach, if the Rockstar is willing to engage, IS for the OP to ask her what her experience of that time was. If OP doesn’t know, she should start with “here’s what I know about my shortcomings and here’s what I regret– did this impact you how I think it did”?

        4. Anon Librarian*

          +1

          I work now in the same area I grew up in, after leaving for a while. The classmates still in the area, when I bump into them, seem to remember me as being a chill, pleasant person to be around. Meanwhile all I remember of high school is being utterly miserable and moving myself out of my assigned homeroom to avoid my bully.

    2. BethRA*

      It certainly wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard of a bully having made someone’s life hell, but having only a vague memory of events later on.

      1. Arpai*

        Someone who used to harass me daily on the school bus once messaged me on Facebook to ask, “Was I mean to you on the bus? If so, I’m sorry.” I figured she was in AA and at that atonement step. I did not respond.

        1. Bee*

          Conversely, someone I know apologized to me a couple years ago for the way he’d treated me in high school – but my every memory of him was perfectly innocuous, so it just made me wonder what he’d done or said behind my back. I appreciated the thought, and it hasn’t soured my opinion of him, but it was a really unnerving message to get.

          1. michelenyc*

            That happened to me at my 20 year reunion and I pretty much had the same reaction. Yeah, you were jerk but I didn’t care then and I certainly do not care now.

          2. Blue Anne*

            I had that experience too. A guy from high school got in touch to say he didn’t like who he’d been back then and he remembered being particularly mean to me and he was really sorry. I didn’t remember anything about him other than he was one of the “cool” kids and actually seemed like one of the nicer ones. Now I wonder if he was saying nice things to my face and being a jerk when I couldn’t hear him.

            1. sunny-dee*

              Meh. Or there could be one or two things that he said / did that stick out as mean to him and you didn’t notice. I have a couple of people where I said something unintentionally cruel, and years later, it still bothers me, though it didn’t seem to affect our relationship at the time. If I could take it back, I would, but I’m not certain they’d remember.

            2. AMG*

              Alternatively, there was a kid, Fergus, who died in a car accident in high school. I was on FB with his best friend talking about how I felt bad that I hadn’t really ever been nice to him. Bestie was there as a witness, and said that I was fine, and that the few incidents were minor and on par with being young kids versus truly bullying Fergus.

        2. Anna*

          Or maybe she just realized after a bit of maturity that things she thought might have been “funny” were actually “shitty” and wanted to apologize.

          2. Queen of the File*

            Watching that episode of 30 Rock has made me paranoid about how I came across in high school…

      2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        From the people who have sent me friend requests on facebook, I’d say most high school bullies are completely clueless as to the impact they had. They made life hell for years and now what to “keep in touch”? No thanks.

        1. BananaPants*

          No kidding. I want to respond, “You made my life hellish for years and mocked me endlessly – and now you want to ‘catch up’? Yeah, no.”

          I did accept friend requests from a couple of them; they’re in a group with only occasional visibility to my posts. Yes, there’s schadenfreude at play – I’m not going to miss out on watching the Jerry Springer-worthy trainwrecks that these women inexplicably put on full display on social media!

          1. Blue Anne*

            I had great schadenfreude with one of mine. This girl had, in the very first days of social media, posted pictures mocking me for a physical disfigurement. Two years ago she got in touch to apologize and asked how I was.

            “Oh, really good, I’m in Scotland now, I got my degree, I’m married, lost a lot of weight, lots of friends out here, working at a big accounting firm, just got back from vacation to Germany, things are great. How are you?”
            “Oh, I just got out of rehab.”

            1. Cath in Canada*

              I ran into a couple of my main bullies once, when I was back in my home town for a visit a few years after leaving high school. I was bullied pretty mercilessly for being a swot (UK word for the kid with the good grades – basically I was a blend of Hermione Granger & Lisa Simpson), so it was very gratifying when one of the less horrible ones asked what I was doing now and I said “I’m about to get my PhD in cancer research, and I’ve lined up a postdoctoral position at a cancer research centre in Canada”. The friends they were with (who I didn’t know) were all “ooooOOOOOOoooooh!”, and the bullies looked pretty sour.

              I could probably work with all but one of them now – the ringleader. She’s the one who sent me a friend request on Facebook and then expressed total surprise and disbelief when I reminded her about the years of smushing my lunch into my face, throwing my bag into the boys’ bathrooms, and general shunning. It’s actually quite gratifying to hear that this kind of memory discrepancy is a common experience…

        2. NotTheSecretary*

          I was not really “bullied” per se, I’ve always had very thick skin and a general attitude of GFY to anyone who didn’t like me but there were definite Mean Girls in my class who made a point of not speaking to me. In my experience, any time one of them friends me on Facebook it’s just so they can “grow their business” of hawking MLM crap to vague acquaintances.

      3. AnotherAlison*

        Another bully – John from Spanish III – ended up having kids go to the same small home daycare as my son about 10 years after HS graduation. At first, I didn’t recognize him because he was a good 50 lbs heavier and had a shaved head, but one day he asked me if I graduated with him and told me who he was. In the moment, I just reacted and said, “Oh yeah, you were a real jerk to me.” He was all, “Oh, I was? I don’t remember that.” I definitely got a little satisfaction out of the fact that my life was going better than his.

      4. FormerLW*

        On the flip side, I’m one of those people with a memory like a vault. I remember high school like it was yesterday. A girl (woman) I went to high school with cut me dead when I ran into her in our hometown recently. I remember her as an acquaintance with whom I had (and still have) mutual friends. I told a close friend of mine about the incident. The friend is still close with someone who keeps in touch with this woman. Apparently, she believes I talked about her behind her back and was her enemy throughout high school. Not true. Not true at all. She was barely on my radar, and not in a “you’re beneath me” way.

      5. K.*

        This isn’t a bullying situation, but I had a close friend in middle and high school who was a year older than I am. He and I always kind of had crushes on each other but never did anything about it. We stayed friends after he graduated and when I was looking at colleges, I visited him because I was interested in his school (ended up applying and getting in but chose to go elsewhere). The first night I was there, we had dinner with his friends and he described me as the one from middle school who got away, and I was like “Huh?!” He told this story of how I’d rejected him at a dance in middle school. I said “That never happened, you got together with another girl that night and broke my little 13-year-old heart.” He swore up and down that he only got together with her after I rejected him, which I maintain to this day never happened. His friends were turning their heads like they were watching tennis as we argued over this – we remember things completely differently and both of us were 100% rock-solid in our positions.

      6. oranges & lemons*

        I feel like it’s probably a bit of a defense mechanism on the bully’s part–they minimize their own actions and push them to the back of their minds, and over time actually do forget about it (I’m just speculating here, as I’ve only been the victim in these situations). I think it’s a rare person who actually chooses to dwell on the awful things they’ve done to another person.

    3. Emac*

      I agree, I think some acknowledgement of exactly how the OP was awful to this girl is important for a sincere apology. Just by the OPs description, it doesn’t sound like it was a minor one time incident, but much more serious and ongoing. I think I would want some assurance that the OP understood why the bullying was wrong & hurtful – otherwise it feels like the apology will just end up a generic (and insincere) “Yeah, I know I was an a**hole in high school, probably to you among others, sorry about that!”

      2. Aveline*

        Also, if someone is a serial bully…

        Chun-Li: My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away. A hero at a thousand paces.
        M. Bison: I’m sorry. I don’t remember any of it.
        Chun-Li: You don’t remember?!
        M. Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
        — Street Fighter (1994 film)

    5. k*

      This is a really good point. Considering she is willing to risk her job over the thought of working with you after all these years, it was probably worse for her than you remember.

    6. Parenthetically*

      Came here to say exactly this, and that quoted part is just what was rubbing me the wrong way. It’s great advice to seek out a third party who could offer some more insight.

      OP, you need to back off on apologizing until you do a little reflection about the sort of behavior that would motivate someone to threaten to leave what sounds like an amazing job ten years after the incidents took place. You don’t sound at all like you have a sense of the seriousness of it. My guess is that, from the victim’s perspective, it was more than “pretty awful.”

      1. Juliecatharine*

        Exactly this. I think OP needs some serious reflection. If this were me I would be horrified that my actions hurt someone to the degree that they would issue a no-hire ultimatum ten years later. Unless this woman is a major weirdo (which OP doesn’t claim) we’re not talking about a one-off or some relatively innocuous teasing. Actions have consequences and hopefully this will be an opportunity for growth.

    7. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      I think it could be done. Something along the lines of “I know I was a terrible person back then, and I am deeply sorry that I was awful to you. I want to assure you that I am no longer applying for openings at Company X. I wish you all the best and, once again, I apologize for my past behavior.”

      Honestly, if one of my bullies wanted to apologize to me, I wouldn’t want them rehashing every detail anyway. A broad acknowledgement that their behavior was unacceptable would be preferable.

      1. KHB*

        The operative sentence there is “I am no longer applying for openings at Company X.” With that in there, the OP has a lot of leeway. Without it, it’s a whole ‘nother story.

    8. Meg Murry*

      I agree 100% that it’s worth asking someone from high school – preferably someone who wasn’t BFFs with either of you back in the day that might have a skewed perspective.

      It’s also possible that what’s she’s remembering isn’t so much you specifically being awful to her but rather you being a Mean Girl or Jerk-y Bro, or the kind of person who would make comment about people’s weight, appearance, race, or make fun of the smart kids or the special ed kids or the kids who were not athletic, misogynistic comments, etc – and that would be doubly bad if she is working in an industry that is trying to shed that kind of reputation (I’m thinking of startups and Tech Bros specifically, I’m sure there are other examples). In that case, apologizing to just her probably wouldn’t help very much – if she remembers you as a jerk/bully/Mean Girl, your apology to her (and only her, not other people from high school as well) is just going to come off as you trying to suck up to her because of the job. Especially if it’s a case like you were kind of mean to her but absolutely terrible to her best friend or something.

      Unless you have specific memories of bullying her (and only her), I don’t think an email apology is going to help anything. I think instead OP should probably look at this as a “what goes around comes around” situation, and work on continuing to become a better person than they were in high school. It’s possible that someday OP may cross paths with this person (or other people they went to high school with, it sounds like they live near where they grew up?) and may have the chance to say “look, I was a jerk in high school and now I realize it and I’m sorry and I hope we can go forward now that we’re all adults.”

      But in the short term, if there are very few jobs in your area OP, you probably need to expand your search area.

  9. Taylor Swift*

    LW, if you do apologize, make it a sincere one and don’t do it just because you think it might help you get a job.

  10. VroomVroom*

    There was a group of girls who were total mean girls to me in high school. Most of them were just tertiary and weren’t actually mean themselves, but two or three of them were actively AWFUL.

    If any of those ringleaders were to apply for a job at my company and I got wind of it, I would absolutely not want to work with them and I would make sure that the hiring manager knows. At my company now, it’s quite large and if they were in national headquarters my comments probably wouldn’t matter, but if they applied for a job here in our smaller office, hands down I know my opinion would mean they wouldn’t be hired. I’m good at my job and keeping me would be much more important to our office than a potential new employee (who you never know if they’ll be good or not).

    I don’t really care if they sent me an apology email. If they did, sure, I’d be glad they’re not still a sh*tty person, but that doesn’t mean I want to work closely with them.

    1. VroomVroom*

      As a follow up – I actually DID end up working with a mean girl (from middle school, not high school) at an internship in college. We were both interns together – meaning neither of us was there first to threaten to quit.

      It was TEN YEARS after we’d been in middle school together. But she was STILL a mean girl. She was always trying to sabotage me at the internship, when it WAS NOT a competition. It was awful and I ended up quitting early because I just hated going. And I am NOT A QUITTER but one of the entry-level employees at the company was besties with said mean girl from college (a year ahead of us, so already graduated) and allowed mean girl to be actively mean to me while at work.

      1. AMG*

        Unbelievable. One of my greatest disappointments in growing up is not taxes or realizing you can’t eat all the junk food you want. It was the realization that very few people every really outgrow high school behavior.

        1. VroomVroom*

          Eh, I think a lot of people do. I know I certainly did (my husband and I are from the same town and we joke that it’s a good thing we never met before college because we wouldn’t have liked each other at all).

          I just think that there are certain people who felt like they were on top of the world in middle/high school, and haven’t seen any reason to change their ways. If something worked for them, why would they stop doing it?

          Anyway, I often think about this girl and my whole family refers to her as ‘buttface herlastname.’ She recently had a daughter, about a month before I am due, and I’m just terrified that if I ever move back to that city – which I would like to because my family and my husband’s family live there – that her freaking DAUGHTER will be a mean girl to my DAUGHTER. Or, buttface will be a mean-mom to me in the PTA or whatever… ugh.

          1. TootsNYC*

            or worse–her daughter and yours will be fast friends, and you’ll have Buttface in your life for a long time.

            1. VroomVroom*

              Oh god! Now I’m going to have nightmares about that.

              Would it be bad if I brainwash my daughter from a young age to think daughter-of-buttface is also a buttface?

              1. Misclassified*

                If that happened, and you moved back, then your daughter might be a mean girl to her daughter. And that may be the worst of all the options.

                2. VroomVroom*

                  AS a caveat, I hate buttface because she was a buttface to me as an adult – we were 22 years old! If all she’d been was a buttface in middle school I’d probably not care. In fact, I gave her the benefit of the doubt at that internship – and was very nice and friendly to her in the first few weeks. Turns out, she was actively stabbing me in the back the whole time! Urgh.

                3. TootsNYC*

                  actually, yes–having your kid be the bully is a really horrible spot to be in. It happened to me–fortunately the other kid’s mom brought it to the day camp’s attention, and then to ours, so we were able to deal with it.

              2. VroomVroom*

                To clarify – this is just wishful thinking. I would never actually brainwash my kid for that. It’s just along the lines of the ‘revenge fantasies’ someone references below, in my head :-P

            1. VroomVroom*

              Hilariously, she’s also uber religious (and I’m not to the degree she is was never a bible thumper like she was). It’s always funny to me how people like that are often so hypocritical.
              Don’t get me wrong I’ve known quite a few uber religous women throughout my life who are the kindest, sweetest, most selfless people you’ll ever meet. But then there are some women who do it ‘just for show’ and definitely do not practice what they preach … or they judge anyone who isn’t quite as tee-totaler as they are and are cruel to them.

          3. Chaordic One*

            There was a letter to “Dear Prudence” about 5 years ago from a(n) (allegedly) former mean girl who ran into her former victim at the private school where she was sending her sons. She (like the OP) conveniently claimed (to Prudence) not to remember everything she had done to the victim but did give her a tepid apology.

            She wrote to Prudence because she said that her victim had ganged up with the other mothers at the school and that now her own children were being bullied. To be honest it sounded more like the mean girl’s children were being shunned and not invited to sleepovers at the other childrens’ houses. I didn’t used to think that this was a form of bullying, but after thinking about the old Dear Prudence letter and reading the other comments here, I have reconsidered that and have come to think that being shunned and left out is also a form of bullying.

            In that letter, which had a different, but related problem, Prudence told the allegedly former mean girl that she had to talk about things with the principal at the school because it was affecting the woman’s children, but that’s not the OP’s problem in her letter to Allison, fortunately.

        2. Anon today...and tomorrow*

          My biggest disappointment is that all of those revenge fantasies I had in high school – that I’d be looking so hot and the mean girls would be so fat and nasty and the boys would be bald and gross – never came true.

          It’s interesting how those 7 years (grade 6 through 12) leave such an indelible mark on your life. It’s been 25 years since my graduation and it can all come rushing back in a moment. I had one of the nastiest mean girls friend request me on Facebook in the last month. Apparently they’re searching for people to attend the reunion. I sent her a message and told her, in no uncertain terms, that I would not be attending this or any other high school reunion and that I would not be accepting any friend requests from former classmates. Then I blocked her. :) It made me feel good to take that stand for myself.

          1. Arpai*

            There are days I think about attending a reunion and then I come to my senses and remember that anyone I want in my life from that time is already in it.

            I got a Facebook message about the 20-year-reunion and it was going to be a chili dinner hosted by the athletic boosters in the gym. People were posting about how all they’d be talking about were their kids. I quickly noped right out of that because the whole things sounds like a nightmare to me.

            1. Michele*

              I don’t understand high school reunions. They might have made sense 30 or 40 years ago. Now there are so many ways to keep in touch with people that I care about, and I don’t see the point of visiting with people that I don’t care about.

              1. Ann Furthermore*

                I get together for a reunion weekend with some friends every year, where we spend a few days acting like we’re still teenagers, get all caught up in nostalgia, and then spend the next week posting different versions of “I love you guys!” all over Facebook. I look forward to it all year. It keeps me in touch with the “me” that I was before becoming a middle-aged IT nerd/wife and mom in the suburbs.

                Granted, my high school experience was not typical at all. I went to a small boarding school in a tiny little mountain town in California, and something about that place bonded all of us for life, and we’re like family. No matter how long it’s been since we’ve all seen each other, we always pick up right where we left off and it’s like no time has passed at all. Maybe living together, without our parents around, had something to do with it. There really were no cliques. Sure, there were groups of people who were friends, but not in the traditional sense of having the jocks, the stoners, the nerds, and so on.

                1. VroomVroom*

                  This sounds similar to how I am with my summer camp friends. I went to camp for 6 weeks every summer with the same core group of girls every year (each year there were a few new ones, so the group grew) and we all still keep in touch and try to get together as much as possible.

              2. Cath in Canada*

                They’re not really a thing in the UK, so for the longest time my knowledge of high school reunions came 100% from things like Grosse Point Blank & Romy and Michelle’s High School Reunion. Then I went to my husband’s 20 year reunion with him and it was so. very. weird. You could really obviously see who all the cliques were. His high school friend also has an English wife – a professor of psychology no less – who grabbed my arm about three minutes in and said “Cath, this is f*&^ing weird, please don’t leave my side”!

                1. Kathleen Adams*

                  Hmmm. I’m not sure about “cliques.” Groups of friends, sure – I mean, I definitely spent more time with my high school buds. Why wouldn’t I, and why wouldn’t everybody else? But the word “clique” has a connotation that I’m not sure is deserved, at least not at the reunions I went to. It seemed to me that although most of us hung out most of the time with the people we had been closest too, people also made an effort to circulate and talk to other people in the room as well.

                  But yes, of course getting together with people you once saw multiple times every day and who then pretty much disappeared from your life for 20 years or so is weird. But that’s not to say it’s a bad thing. :-)

                2. Cath in Canada*

                  “people also made an effort to circulate and talk to other people in the room as well” – not at this one. Little clusters of people sticking together all night long. My husband provided some sotto voce commentary – “that group over there were all in the football team, this group were all the rich kids” etc. I didn’t talk to anyone who I didn’t already know in the three hours we were there; my husband talked very briefly to some people he ran into at the bar or the snack table, but then everyone went straight back to their little groups.

                  It might be a Vancouver thing – it’s generally very difficult to become friends with people who grew up here, because they already have their friends they’ve known their whole lives and aren’t super interested in making new ones. If you do manage to break into a group (e.g. by marrying in, like I did) then people are really nice and friendly, but the initial barriers are very high and all the newcomers tend to hang out together. There are exceptions, obviously, but I’ve never had a harder time making new friends when arriving in a new city as I did when I first moved here!

                3. GH in SOCal*

                  (Replying to Cath in Canada but ran out of “nesting.)

                  That’s interesting to hear, I lived in Vancouver for 5 years and at the time I thought I had moved there for good. It took me a year to make friends other than the three people I knew when I landed. It was tough, not gonna lie. But I didn’t notice a difference between locals and other transplants — in fact, now that I think about it, the group of friends I finally did make include locals and immigrants.

                  But I met 90% of them through work so that might be relevant to my case. (Short term jobs, so the friendships could flourish once we were no longer colleagues.)

            2. Kathleen Adams*

              I’ve been to several of my class reunions. They’re fun, so long as your expectations are…limited. It’s kind of nice to find out that most people did indeed grow up to be pretty decent people, including some about whom I had some doubts back when I was young.

              And it’s nice to lay some ghosts, too. Really.

          2. Rosamond*

            In high school, I also used to relish the idea of going to my 20th reunion and seeing all the popular kids who would now be fat, bald, whatever. I went to that reunion a few years ago and, uh, it was really fun! And everyone was really nice! And they all looked great! And seemed really happy! A pleasant evening was had by all. And then I realized I might have been kind of a jerk in high school.

            1. Kathleen Adams*

              No, no – probably not. It’s just that the world looks a lot different for most 38-year-olds than it does for most 18-year-olds.

          3. sam*

            I found out years later, when I ran into an old HS classmate at bar review class while I was home for a week (I normally studied in another city) that a girl in high school who was a bully to a LOT of people had a really shitty customer-facing job. We (about-to-be-lawyers with good jobs lined up) concocted some elaborate fantasies about “running into her” and being awful.

            Of course we never did it – because we’re not actually that awful. But it was fun to fantasize for a few minutes.

            And I didn’t go to my high school reunion either. Both because I had no desire to see most of those people, and also because the planners managed to arrange for it to be both super expensive and inconveniently located NEITHER in our hometown (suburb north of NYC) or in NYC. It was randomly in the middle of New Jersey. Because of course.

            1. sam*

              Oh, and also – none of this is meant as a dig at a particular class of jobs – just that the fact that we could have, in theory, bullied her back because of the nature of her job led to some schadenfreude-y thoughts.

              But here’s the real kicker – that was almost 20 years ago. I’ve since found out (thanks to getting random emails about my HS reunion that I did not attend!) that she became a teacher. I can actually only hope that she became a kinder person since HS.

          4. Humble Schoolmarm*

            I went to my 10 year reunion and ran into two of the girls in my “Mean Girl” group. They weren’t the ringleaders, more bystanders than bully, but they were part of a group that made sure I knew that I didn’t have any good qualities or anything about me that wasn’t weird. So, we start making small talk and they ask what I do and I tell them. “Oh, Myname,” they say “you must be a wonderful teacher! You were always so smart and nice and patient in school!” That would have been so nice to hear…well… anytime when we were actually at school together.

            Bringing it back to you, OP. Your “probably pretty awful” was her months (years?) of tears and anger and feeling worthless. She’s made good with her life and risen to the point of having say over who gets hired and she doesn’t deserve to have to go anywhere near that mental space again. I get that you’ve grown and matured, but these are the consequences for hurting someone badly who did nothing (I assume) to deserve it.

        3. Kathleen Adams*

          Having been to a few class reunions in my time, I can say with confidence that most people actually do grow up. I’d say by, say, the 15-year reunion, most of my classmates had turned into normal, functioning adults, and most of them were at least fairly nice – nice enough that I was happy to see them again at the 25th reunion. There are some *notable* exceptions, of course. :-)

          I mean, if this one guy tried to come to work here, I’d blackball him in a second. What a weasel he was, and if another classmate who was his first wife can be relied on, and I think she can, he stayed a weasel well into adulthood, too.

          1. Artemesia*

            I think this is often true. I have never attended class reunions but went to a planning session for one when I was in town as my chance to see some folks. One of the guys there was someone who I thought was a real jerk; he didn’t have that high an impression of me either. We laughed about how much different we and the world looked to our grownup selves. But the class Azzhat — the son of a prominent attorney and now an attorney himself — still a douchebag. It was actually pretty hilarious; how lame do you have to be to still be trying to play high school dominance games?

            1. VroomVroom*

              I know that’s just it! Like… why does it matter?

              Though I certainly work with one guy who I’m pretty sure was probably very attractive when he was younger (he’s still attractive, just in his 50s now) and seems to know it. He is super full of himself, pompous, and thinks he’s WAY smarter and more important than he is. Definition of a mansplainer, too! So I mean, people don’t grow out of that high school stuff – you just didn’t know them in high school to know if they were like that then.

          2. many bells down*

            At my 20-year, at least 5 of the guys who were the “bro jock” type in high school got really drunk and took their shirts off on the dance floor. Some people never change.

        4. Former Retail Manager*

          I am inclined to agree with you wholeheartedly. While the behavior may change to enable the person to come across as more of an adult, I believe that, at our core, most of us don’t change substantially barring a major life event of some sort, and even then not always. Everyone I’ve encountered since high school that I didn’t care for is still pretty much the same in a way that is significant enough to make me not care to associate with them. My favorite is when people who were d***s to me back then, act chummy now, as if nothing ever happened. Puhleeeaaassseee!

          1. Hrovitnir*

            Yep. A guy my partner went to school with was a terrible bully – not to him, but to a lot of kids. He met him again briefly some time in their 40s and his friend from high school was all “he’s changed!” To which my partner snorted and said “no he hasn’t, he’s just better at hiding it.”

            Depending on the circumstances I think people can grow out of it. But people who are bullies because they enjoy abusing power are unlikely to IMO.

        5. blackcat*

          I agree with you: few people grow out of *high school* behavior. I have kept in touch with a couple of my former students. They are basically the same people as they were when they were 18 now that they are 22-25 years old.

          But oh, man, some of they ARE NOT THE SAME AT ALL as their 14 year old selves.

          The pattern I see is that generally, people grow out of the worst of their behavior by senior year of high school, maybe a year or two after. If they don’t, they are assholes for life.

          Since the OPs incident happened late in high school (rather than early or in middle school), I understand why that woman doesn’t want to work with the OP.

  11. Robbenmel*

    If your apology is genuine, I would say go ahead and do it. Even if you’re not likely to end up working for this company, you are likely to end up working with or around this person as you progress in your career, especially as the industry is so small. An apology now could make a huge difference later.

    And even if it doesn’t affect your career, it’s just the right thing to do, which could make a difference in your own heart and mind.

  12. Roscoe*

    So I’ll be the first one to say, I was never bullied. I had some general teasing that happens among boys, but nothing that I would look back on and say it was a horrible experience.

    That said, I really have to wonder what was done and if she is being a bit dramatic here. I agree there are certain things that could rise to the level of “I can’t be in the room with that person again”, and other stuff that is just stupid teenage stuff. Judging people based on who they were in high school is kind of ridiculous, as most people change somewhat from when they are a teen. I’m sure there are things that she did as a teenager that she would rather not have brought up. I say this as a former teacher, most teens do bad stuff that they’d rather forget. So to threaten to quit seems a bit much to me. I understand a manager wanting to retain good staff. But I have to wonder where the line is for where mistakes far in the past will follow you around forever, as well as how much a manager should let someone dictate this. Honestly, I don’t know that an apology would even do any good here.

    I say if you want to apologize because you feel what you did was that bad, go for it. But you are probably not getting a job there unless she leaves. That sucks though. Good luck

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      We don’t know the details here, but some bullying is really bad — like physical assault bad or sexual harassment bad or severe humiliation bad. Kids kill themselves over some bullying. There’s a really wide range, and while sure, it’s possible that the person is reacting surprisingly strongly to something that wasn’t that severe, it’s also possible that it was pretty hellish. We don’t know.

      1. VroomVroom*

        My bullying wasn’t particularly bad – no assault physical or sexual, no public ridicule. Just, those girls were total. effing. bitches. One of the ringleaders of the group of mean girls in high school for me was invited to a date function at my college (she didn’t go to my college) and didn’t know anyone. It’d been a few years and so I figured I’d give her the benefit of the doubt, be nice, and introduce her to my friends. I mean, I was at the date function too and very good friends with her date!
        Anyway, she was still a total. effing. bitch. to me that night. Like, seriously?

        1. I used to be Murphy*

          I still remember the feeling of complete loneliness and hopelessness when I was cut-off from my friends in grade 6. How they made fun of me. Came to my house when I was home alone and yelled and threw rock at the house saying they wanted to beat me up. Called me Miss Piggy. Snickered behind my back. That was 27 years ago. I have no idea if those girls grew up. I don’t even remember some of their names. But I remember what they did.

          1. Michele*

            Are we the same person? Because I had very similar experiences. It was made worse because teachers and parents put so much pressure on me to make friends. I wanted nothing more than to have friends, and it was treated like it was my fault.

            1. Lurkness Monster*

              6th grade is such a terrible time to be a girl. My best friend dumped me for the cool girls – who had made fun of her endlessly the year before because she had impetigo & the steroids to treat it made her puffy. That would have been bad enough, but then she turned on me with the rest of them. My braces, glasses, & fuzzy hair were all great fodder for them. That was a long, terrible year. They backed off some in jr high and high school, but I still had a visceral reaction when I found out the ringleader transferred to my small college our sophomore year. Noped the heck out of our 10 year reunion because of the cost & because she was on the planning committee. The 20th will be coming up soon-ish and I still wouldn’t want to make small talk with her. The worst part: I bet if you asked her she wouldn’t even remember a fraction of the awful crap she said and did to me.

          2. happy cat*

            ugh. Same thing. My BFF from grade 3 on, not only dumped me in grade six (new bigger school) she made fun of me in order to get in the good books of the cool kids. Weirdly, she would talk to me if no one was around. At the time, it hurt, but I wasn’t that mad. I ‘knew’ I was a loser and didn’t blame her.
            Later in life, I held her more accountable.
            She actually apologized on her own, and in our late 20s early 30s we became friends again..
            and, yah, it started up again.
            I was too fat.
            My job was too lame.
            My clothes sucked.. and on and on.
            then…..Her live in boyfriend made a pass at me, and I struggled if I should tell her. We all lived in the same housing co op in a small town.. in the end I realized I had to tell her, and she blamed me, for TELLING her, and stayed with him.
            She is still with him, nearly 20 years later.
            Anyway, not sure where I was going with this, apart from I was incredibly lonely in school, had 0 friends after that, it got so bad I could not even use the bathroom at school.. all so she could have cool friends.

      2. KHB*

        Another thing for my fellow oldsters (I’m 39) to keep in mind is that bullying in the age of the internet has the potential to be so much worse. I had some classmates make my life pretty miserable in middle school, but at the end of the school day, I was away from them. When summer vacation rolled around, I was away from them for three whole months. But when you’re living life in public via facebook and twitter and whatever the social medium du jour is, the bullies can find a way to stay with you always.

        1. Adlib*

          Yes, this. I cannot even imagine trying to grow up amidst all the social media these days. Wow. Also, kids have found some pretty extreme ways to be terrible there that I don’t think we ever considered when we were young.

        2. Easter*

          Ditto to this. I look back on high school and have no bad memories, no bullies, but sometimes I wonder how that is possible (chubby, braces, band – say what?)! I’d like to think that it was my rockstar confidence but I’m sure that a big part of it was that I graduated before Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/etc. How kids these days manage, I’ll never know.

        3. AnonEMoose*

          Oh, so much this! Grades 6-9 were absolute HELL for me, between the mean girls and the boys who harassed me because I was an “early bloomer” and a nerd. But at least home was a safe space. If I hadn’t been able to get away from it for at least part of every day, I seriously do not know if I would be here to write this.

        4. sam*

          Oh this – I like facebook now, but I tell everyone that I thank god every day that facebook and the like didn’t exist when I was a kid. At least when I got home at the end of an awful day, it was a refuge from some of the awfulness that went on.

          My parents actually moved when I was in the sixth grade, and I’m extremely confident that they changed school districts specifically because I was having such a hard time in the school I was in. Things definitely got better in my new school – I was never popular, and I still got bullied by the class bully, but she picked on everyone. In elementary school, I was singled out and got picked on by everyone (I don’t know if it was because I was a nerd, or just weird, or what. I mean, at one point kids were making fun of my clothes every day – so my mom went out and specifically bought me the same trendy sneakers that EVERYONE else wore – but somehow I still got made fun of because I didn’t wear them “right”).

        5. mreasy*

          I’m 37 and was bullied to the level of emotional abuse from kindergarten thru middle school, with the sexual harassment/assault added in 7/8 grade. I am an exec and extremely self assured and I would NEVER be able to work around someone who tortured me in my youth. Maybe that’s part of the reason I moved across the country…

        6. Kfox (OP)*

          We are just old enough that Facebook wasn’t a thing until our freshman year of college. We had Xanga, though. I know Rock Star was the target of a very mean post. I didn’t write it (and Rock Star would’ve known who did), but it’s the kind of thing looking back on I wish I’d sat at my dad’s computer and typed, “Not cool.”

      3. Turtle Candle*

        Yes, thank you. Intellectually, I would like to say “of course people can change.” Emotionally….

        I was bullied by a group of about a dozen people at my middle school. The abuse varied in intensity (from sexual assault down to ‘just’ harassment like stealing my belongings and spreading rumors that I was a slut and telling me that I should kill myself and remove myself from the gene pool so there would be fewer ugly babies), but it was unremitting and unrelenting. Every day. For a year. Once my parents finally found me an alternate school, I was very close to suicide myself. It cause me permanent emotional damage that I have to deal with to this day.

        I suspect that some of the people in the group probably still wouldn’t have any idea what they’d done, because part of the problem of bullying is that it’s cumulative. Okay, the guy who groped me and the girl who spat on me and put a razor blade in my locker with a ‘please do everyone a favor’ note probably could at least recognize that their actions were extreme, if they have any shred of empathy. But the rest of them? They were ‘just messing around’ with my belongings, they were ‘just razzing you,’ come on, can’t you take a joke? And yeah, if the context had been friendly, or even if it hadn’t been continual and perpetuated by multiple people, maybe I could have taken a joke. But it was continuous and unending, and it turned every school day into a gauntlet.

        I do not think I would be capable even now of working with any of them. This was over twenty years ago. I still couldn’t. I would quit rather than have to look at them across a table every day. I do not wish them ill in a general sense. I do not want them to be unemployable forever. But I would absolutely leave my workplace if I had to deal with them regularly. Absolutely.

      4. detached anon*

        Yeesh. I’ve read the OP’s comments in the first thread, although my device can’t easily search Names for me to easily find other posts.

        So with that disclaimer, I’m going by OP’s mention that the incident was from excluding Rockstar from her group when they were neighbours & the situation emanates from that.

        I guess my question is this: With OP’s comments & from the context in her letter (“…I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl”), are we all assuming bullying because of the title of this post?
        Alison, was there more to the letter that made you think “bullying”?

        All that said, it’s good to have discussions on issues like bullying. And OP, I do think you might have done worse than the memory you have now. I don’t mean this as unkind, as others have said many former bullies have little recollection as to how bad they really were & years after the fact one really wouldn’t block an application based only on not being allowed in a certain group.

        If you ever decide to apologise to Rockstar, please be certain that it’s genuine & with no ulterior motive. Also be prepared that she might not ever be able to accept it.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I don’t think you’re in a position to second-guess, here, and I think you’re minimizing the effect that even social ostracism and bullying can have. If you haven’t been bullied, this strikes me as a good opportunity to end fewer sentences with “.” and more with “?”

    3. AMG*

      Hey Roscoe, if it never happened to you then you really don’t know what you’re talking about. It which case you should probably refrain from providing an opinion.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’m okay with people providing opinions here on things they have no firsthand experience with, and I don’t want that shut down (although I think it’s wise for people to acknowledge when they’re doing that). It’s fine to tell someone they’re speaking without the benefit of experience though.

          1. Marisol*

            Well if he was a teacher of teenage kids, it does sound like he has some frame of reference for what he’s talking about.

            1. Lilo*

              Although we all had teachers who ignored bullying or in some cases, egged it on. Man, that one English teacher of mine was awful and did not belong in the classroom.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I had a TEACHER who bullied me. Before we were in her class (primary school), the kids really didn’t pick on me that much. She made it okay, and it continued until we graduated.

                1. TL -*

                  Yeah, I think this is the biggest problem – it’s so easy to set a norm for kids and most of them don’t have the ability to recognize that it’s not normal or realize that they can set a new normal. They just go along with what the normal is (so one kid gets picked on by everybody or they just ignore the person being picked on or it’s okay to tease someone a bit because everyone does but they don’t realize that a couple of the kids take it way too far, so their teasing isn’t little but actually culmulative…)

              2. Relly*

                Yeah. They tell kids now to tell a teacher. I tried that. The teachers didn’t give a rat’s ass.

              3. Oranges*

                Dude, one time a classmate in 11th grade told all the “fags to stay in the closet or else”. Teacher did jack shit. I could go on for a good long while but that was the worst. Also I am LGBT

              1. Marisol*

                I didn’t say it was the same as personal experience. I said he probably has some insight. If you read the OP’s additional comments, you may see that what she describes is, in fact, normal teenage high school drama, rather than the kind of extreme bullying others are positing. So Roscoe was on to something.

            3. Observer*

              Actually, that makes it worse. Teachers who think that ostracizing a kid (which is pretty much what the OP describes) is just fairly routine HS stuff, no big deal and with no lasting impact are a real part of the problem.

              Now, the way many High Schools work, there is no a lot most teachers can do. But at least realize that this stuff IS a big deal!

        2. Aveline*

          It’s also relevant whether or not the victim was “fragile” as minor bullying of someone fragile can be worse than major bullying of someone who is emotionally 100%, popular, and w. Support network

          Imagine bullying a rapd victim. Even minor acts can leave major damage

    4. Arpai*

      If you’ve never been bullied, I don’t think you can say this person was overreacting in this situation. My bully instructed his friends to hit me over the head with textbooks. That’s just one example of the stuff he did.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I was horribly bullied in high school. So badly that I graduated in three years because I was sure I wouldn’t make it to four. My body, my clothes, my economic status were all fair game to obnoxious boys and mean girls. Hallways between classes were an obstacle course of physical (shoving, tripping, slamming into lockers) and emotional abuse (name calling, mean girl observations “where did you get that hat? I just LOVE it. So retro. The thrift store?” I was the kid that a cool boy asked to a dance and then all of his friends laughed when I said yes because couldn’t I tell he was just “kidding” why would anyone ask out a loser like me.

        I wouldn’t say scarred for life but I certainly wouldn’t want to work with any of them. I am pretty sure I would be pissed off if someone labeled my high school recollections as “dramatic” minimizing the daily trauma that I experienced.

        1. AnonMarketer*

          “I was the kid that a cool boy asked to a dance and then all of his friends laughed when I said yes because couldn’t I tell he was just “kidding” why would anyone ask out a loser like me.”

          Oh god, I was bullied RELENTLESSLY as a kid all the way until I finished freshman year of college. That one sentence brought all sorts of bad memories back. Yikes.

          2. Oryx*

            Oh god. I remember sitting in the lunch room and one of the quasi cool kids (not top tier, but maybe a tier above me) came up to our table and asked me out to prom in front of my friends. I just sat there, blushing furiously, and said no because I just had a bad feeling I was being set up.

            Looking back, he might have been sincerely asking but I’d been bullied all through middle and high-school, I didn’t want to risk the option that he was just kidding.

        2. Arpai*

          Someone threw an opened milk carton at me one day in the lunchroom. That honestly was probably one of the most humiliating things ever.

          I will also never forget the first day I got on the bus to go to my new school district in second grade. I was six years old and a fifth grader took one look at me and called me a “fat, white-haired slob”. I was bewildered.

          1. Oryx*

            I think my most humiliating was getting barked at. As in, a dog. I had just gotten off the bus in middle school and dropped something and as I went to pick it up another girl in my class just barked at me. WTF

            3. Not So NewReader*

              OMG. That continued on into my 20s. I can remember walking down a street past a bar. It was daytime but the bar was busy. There were some guys at the table next to the window. I walked by and they all started barking.

              If I had known then what I know now…..

        3. Lilo*

          I really wasn’t that badly bullied but I still have a small scar on my face from where a girl scratched my face up on the bus. So i guess I am quite literally scarred. Now she was 8 at the time so I don’t blame her now, but if she had been 17, you bet I would side-eye her in the future.

      2. many bells down*

        Spit in my hair. Gum in my hair. Knocked down, had my shoes stolen and thrown onto a nearby roof. Knocked off my bike resulting in a broken arm. Shoved into lockers.

        That’s just the bigger stuff. There’s still the death by a thousand cuts of the constant verbal harassment.

    5. Nonnie*

      No. It is absolutely not being dramatic. Being bullied is not the same as having one bad experience here and there. Bullying is, by definition, long term targeting for various forms of harassment and/or abuse. And if this person is willing to say “This person bullied me in high school and I don’t want to work with them,” you should believe that person.

    6. Princess Carolyn*

      We just don’t know enough about what happened to speculate about whether this classmate’s reaction is reasonable, so let’s not. What we do know is that she’s a super star and that gives her some significant capital in that organization. Few managers are willing to let a star employee walk to take a chance on an entry-level candidate, especially if the concern about the candidate is that he might be a jerk.

      Stuff like this happens all the time, but it’s not always expressly related to childhood bullying. It could be a general dislike, something a candidate did to make a really bad impression, even just an unsavory reputation. Sometimes that’s fair and sometimes it’s not, but your chances are never going to be great at a company where an important person doesn’t like you.

      1. Natalie*

        Yep, at the end of the day we don’t know what happened, the LW and Rockstar Employee might not even know what happened (human memory is not infallible) but none of it matters. Rockstar Employee doesn’t want LW there, so LW is going to have to live with that.

      2. Michele*

        You are right that things like this happen all of the time for various reasons. We rejected on candidate because he a couple of our employees had him as a professor and said that he was really bad about playing favorites. That made us concerned that he wouldn’t be able to work with everyone. Another candidate was rejected because he was my former boss and I let my current boss know that he had almost been fired for sexual harassment.

      3. MicroManagered*

        Absolutely. I blocked an applicant because I used to work with her in my last job and she was a bully there. She started a rumor that I was sleeping with Grandboss. (Zero truth to that story.) I told Currentboss I would begin interviewing immediately if she was hired. Her resume went in the figurative trash.

    7. LBK*

      You’re still being heavily shaped as a person when you’re a teenager. Things that might be easy to get over when you’re an adult or that seem minor from an adult perspective can have a serious long-term effect on you when you’re that impressionable. 10 years later high school is still by far the most difficult, stressful period of my life – it’s really not an easy time for a lot of people and comes with bad memories that would be hard to just get over if the person who was the centerpiece of them was sitting at a desk next to you every day.

      You know how if you drink too much of a certain alcohol and it makes you sick you don’t really want to drink that kind of alcohol anymore? It’s like that. I don’t have a grudge against Bacardi Razz; I don’t hate its existence. But I don’t want to drink it because I relate it with a bad experience that I don’t really want to relive.

      1. Chaordic One*

        This is an apt comment. Many years ago I had a bit too much tequila and to this day I cannot stand it. Just the smell makes me nauseous. Thinking about certain bullies from my past gives me a similar feeling.

    8. MK*

      Roscoe, the manager did not let anyone dictate anything. She learned that if she hired the OP, another employee would leave and she made a decision. Your comment, as well as the OP’s “is this fair” question, seems to imply that the manager did this to punish the OP’s bullying behavior, but that’s not really the case. It doesn’t actually matter if this person has legitimate concerns about working with the OP or she is overreacting to behavior that wasn’t that bad objectively; she has a right to decide that she doesn’t want to work with the OP ever.

      Also, another factor is how closely they would work together. I can see myself issueing a veto against working with someone who wasn’t abusive, just a jerk, if it meant we would sit opposite eachother all day long.

    9. (different) Rebecca*

      In high school eggs were thrown at me in class. A hairbrush was aggressively lodged in my hair at lunch. Projectiles were thrown at me as I rode my bike to work after school. I was shoved, tripped, isolated, ostracized, and humiliated at every turn, and every time I tried to either fight back or report it, I was the one who got in trouble. As a current teacher, I make sure to let my students know that such behavior is not allowed, period, and if they’re subject to it then I have their back. The people who passed it off as not too bad or just teenage stuff were the reason I ended up with severe trust issues on top of the trauma of being bullied in the first place. Please reexamine your stance on this, because such a cavalier attitude can cause unexpected damage.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree. What letter writer here is talking about is not ordinary teenage drama.

    10. Falling Diphthong*

      People change between, say, their 30s and 50s. It doesn’t mean that the actions of their 30s go into some sort of non-actionable vault the instant they turn 40.

    11. TootsNYC*

      Some points:
      This woman (the victim) is REALLY GOOD at her job–therefore, smart and probably w/ good social skills‚ and good judgment, presumably.
      This woman **threatened to resign**–she didn’t just say, “ooh, I used to know them, not a good hire.”
      Threatening to resign can make you look really unprofessional; it’s an extreme reaction, and it can make you come across as vengeful or overreacting. Managers don’t like to feel pushed around by their staff–not even their stars. It’s really risky.
      She did it anyway.

      I think that means she was affected pretty strongly by whatever our OP did.

      I agree with you–our OP is not getting a job there. And maybe not even after the OP leaves. And maybe not elsewhere, actually.
      Because people are going to remember this former classmate’s reaction, and they’re probably going to give it some creedence for the exact same reason I did. And they’re going to move around inside this niche industry.

      I think our OP’s best bet is to do some really, really serious re-evaluating of “how terrible?” was what they did, and get to a point where they can apologize quite sincerely.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yep, all of this. Threatening to resign when you’re a high performer with a great job is SUCH a nuclear option, and that’s why I’m loath to chalk this up to “normal” high school teasing. You just do not throw away a position in which you are at the top of your game and highly respected in your field over something minor or even something more serious that happened a decade ago. Her playing this card is itself a huge red flag about OP’s behavior.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Threatening to resign is a pretty major deal, especially if you don’t have another job lined up. I mean, given how stellar she is in her field, it probably wouldn’t be long before she found another job, but it’s still a big deal to quit without anything immediately lined up. I would take it seriously that this is the hill she wanted to die on.

          1. Michele*

            Especially since there aren’t many other jobs in her field in the area. That is a big risk to take.

        2. New hiring manager*

          This is what stood out to me. If she was willing to take such a risky stance when she had so much to lose, it was likely more than simple, passing HS unkindness. If all these years later, she’s willing to throw away such a good thing (where she’s repeatedly proven herself), then the OP’s actions obviously made a major, lasting impression.

      2. KHB*

        To add to your list of excellent points: The former classmate has a track record with her manager and coworkers. If the problem were that she’s too much of a drama queen, she’d be introducing drama over other things too, not just this (and would likely be much less valued as an employee because of it). The fact that they took her threat seriously suggests that it’s not her usual behavior, which suggests that out of all things that annoy/upset/terrify her, whatever the OP did in high school is very near the top of the list.

      3. Just Another Techie*

        threatening to resign if such-and-such happens is, in fact, usually such a red flag that typically managers reply with “don’t let the door hitcha on your way out.” The fact that they didn’t, that they chose in favor of their employee, doesn’t just speak to her reputation with her bosses. It shouts it from the rooftops. Her managers obviously have faith in her judgment and credibility.

        1. Lady Andthetramp*

          I feel like the OP changed her tune about this. What was “threatened to resign” in the letter turned into “she politely replied that is she had to see me every day she would have to move on.” down thread.

          1. Kfox (OP)*

            When I wrote to Alison, that was what I had been told – “Rock Star threatened to quit if you were offered a job.” I actually asked my acquaintance to see if she could get me more information, and she came back with this tidbit – that it had been more of a polite, “I will move on” versus “I quit!” – after our first conversation and after I’d written to AAM, but before Alison responded.

            1. Tempest*

              They’re kind of the same thing though. They both say ‘I will not work with Kfox and will be gone from your company.’ If she’s the superstar you describe her as here, she’ll be snapped up by another company and she’ll be gone quickly either way. The not extreme version of this would have been letting them hire you and then quietly leaving without saying why. The fact she told her bosses to their face if they hire you they will be losing her to somewhere you are not means that working with you is a massive deal breaker for her. Telling your bosses you’ll leave over a new hire is standing on your hill prepared to die there as they might have said ‘Bye Felicia’. There is no softening of her feelings for the change of language, just the I won’t put myself in a position of not having an income over it but I will be gone from the vicinity of Kfox as soon as a new job allows.

    12. TBoT*

      One of the things that’s most frustrating about bullying is how often adults children turn to for help dismiss their fears and needs by calling them over-dramatic or saying things like “boys will be boys” and “teenagers are cruel.”

      Aside from that, there’s a well-documented, established societal pattern of women’s fears and concerns being downplayed and dismissed. Doctors take women’s pain less seriously. Employers take women’s reports of harassment less seriously. Women often have to coordinate with one another in meetings to support each others’ statements so they will be taken seriously. So it’s frustrating to see here in the comments a jump to “probably being over dramatic” in the face of no detail about what happened.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Thanks for saying this in such a diplomatic way. I couldn’t make my frustrations about that particular facet of this come out in coherent words.

      2. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        THANK YOU! This sums up exactly what I wished I could say but emotion kept me from being as articulate!

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I really appreciate this comment (the others are also great). It does a fantastic job of reframing what bothered me about Roscoe’s suggestion that the employee is somehow oversensitive or overdramatic.

      4. Carolyn*

        Waaaaaaaaaaay off topic, but you REALLY made me think when you wrote:

        Women often have to coordinate with one another in meetings to support each others’ statements so they will be taken seriously.

        I work in a male dominated field and in my office of 8, there are only 2 females … and until 6 months ago, I was the only female at my branch office! We occasionally make sample prints for customers and sometimes the images the techs use push the bounds of good taste. If anything, my shock-meter is calibrated waaaaaaaaay too low, so if I am giving something side-eye, a normal person would likely be quite offended.

        The other day, there was a sample print of a woman wearing stockings, skimpy panties, and covering her huge tracts of land with only strategically held fruit. How subtle … eyeroll. We use A LOT of fashion photography to print samples because skin tones and vivid colors and draped cloth can really show off what our machines can do … but there are plenty of images which have all of those features that don’t also look just a tad too risque for a Victoria’s Secret catalog.

        I brought it up in a meeting on Monday morning – I didn’t hesitate or feel funny or make apologies for being sensitive – it was in bad taste and I spoke up. I said that some of the images used for samples were outside the bounds of good taste and that we needed to be careful with the impressions we make with samples – if the person holding the purse strings can’t get past the shock of a bikini lady draped over a Corvette, how are they ever going to notice the quality of the print and decide to buy our machines? My boss backed me up (“For real guys?! Come ON!”), the guys smiled sheepishly and nodded agreement. And then my female coworker spoke up and said “Carolyn is not the only one who feels this way – I agree with her.”

        It felt a bit weird to me at the time – it’s always nice to be backed up, but it felt unnecessary? Heavy handed? I couldn’t put my finger on it … but it had some sense of it not being enough that I alone felt that way? I didn’t make anything of it (smiled at her and nodded emphatic agreement), but your words brought it into focus for me. At this branch, I am VERY used to being taken seriously and listened to – I am regularly asked to give opinions and come up with ideas. (And it is AWESOME!!!! I love my company, my job, my boss and my coworkers!!!! I wish I could hire away every last one of you with nightmare jobs!!!!) Upon reflection, I am 99.9999999% sure that she was knee-jerk backing me up because she had seen too many women get shot down without someone to back them up. It wasn’t necessary in that room on that day … but it had been necessary way too many times before.

        Really looking forward to her internalizing that here she will be taken seriously, treated with respect and valued! But until then, I am going to make a point of backing her up – if that is how she shows support to me, chances are she will feel supported if I do the same!

        (And I will admit … many years ago, the first time I saw a questionable image come off a printer (it was a clever play on the phrase “coin slot” featuring both a slot machine and a woman bending over … again, subtle …) I pointed it out to my boss and let him handle it with the techs. So I am not saying it didn’t take me some time getting used to my voice being enough on its own, too …)

        1. Chaordic One*

          You are so right about this, Carolyn, and about the need to actively support other women when you’re in a situation like this. Kudos for the good example you gave, too! Sometimes, you might have to have a little talk with the other women who will be in the meeting to coordinate and plan something like this, and sometimes your “allies” might let you down.

          I feel positively “Machiavellian,” but I’ve been guilty of setting things up like this. My experience has been that I’ve had good luck when involving other women and LGBT people, but mixed results when involving minority men. Of course, you do this with the understanding that you have to speak up and give your allies the time to make their points and to then support them afterwards.

      6. Not So NewReader*

        Thank you for this.

        In OP’s letter we have a woman who is VERY secure in her job, she’s not just good at it, she is GREAT. She spoke up, the company listened and now OP is out a perspective job. This is how it should go when women are respected.

      7. nonegiven*

        “Just ignore them.”

        “Don’t let it bother you.”

        Then the ever popular:
        “What did you do to make them want to do that to you?”

    13. PlainJane*

      I was bullied from 4th grade till about sophomore year of high school–and some of it was really bad, like sexual harassment and physical violence. And I still generally agree with you. I’m pretty forgiving of what people did back then, because a lot of them had crappy home situations and were acting out and because, as you say, most teenagers do bad stuff–and also because I don’t want to carry around a load of anger and hurt 30 years after the fact. Some people are assholes forever, but many grow out of it and become decent human beings. I’m happy to see that happen and happy to forgive them for who they used to be.

      All that said, everyone processes their pain differently, and people who couldn’t stand to work with their former tormentors aren’t wrong to feel the way they do.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have a friend who describes himself as a recovering AH. I said is there a 12 step for that? He said, “No. It’s a 31 step and you have to create the steps yourself.” I told him this sounded really painful. It looks pretty painful to me.

        I know he still struggles, even though, he has indeed become a far better person. Because he was busy doing stupid things he missed a lot of life lessons that other people were learning. Even now he finds things insulting that are not insulting. And there are times he has problems that get big because he has never learned what people are doing to fix that problem when it occurs.

        We talk about this sometimes. And he says that it is his punishment for being such an AH in the first half of his life.
        While I don’t agree with it, I can see why people continue being AHs for the rest of their lives, the learning curve to convert is very steep and requires some very painful inner self inspection.

    14. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      I was bullied every day from April of 1985 to June of 1992. Every day. It’s been 25 years since graduation and I still have nightmares – three to six a month. I wouldn’t care if my bullies apologized. I wouldn’t work with them. I have a cousin who became best friends with one of my bullies about 8 years after high school. I won’t attend anything that side of my family hosts because this woman is always invited. I’ve been asked what I’ve gone through and to some it sounds mild, to others it sounds horrible. To me, it was the worst time of my life. And the thing that made it the worst was that there were all of these adults who saw it going on (my own mother included!) and they all suggested that I was being dramatic, that it was regular teenage stuff, that boys were being boys, that girls were being girls, that I needed to get thicker skin, that this would make me stronger. No. I needed for it to stop. It didn’t. I was in therapy for many years. I had two (two!!!!) failed suicide attempts before the people closest to me realized it wasn’t teenage stuff, that bullying is a problem that doesn’t end when the bully goes away. My self esteem took a hit that it’s still recovering from all these years later, so yeah…if one of my bullies were offered a position here at work, I’d quit and it wouldn’t be because I was being dramatic. It would be because my mental health could not survive even being around them.

      1. Michele*

        I am so sorry that you went through that. I wish that parents and teachers would stop blowing off behavior that would land an adult in prison as just “kids being kids”.

      2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

        I’m so sorry. You didn’t deserve any of that. It was wrong and the adults should have protected you. Sending you lots of supportive energy.

      3. AMG*

        I hear you. I would tell my mom what the other kids said about me and she thought it was hilarious and would burst out laughing in my face. Forgiven but not ever forgotten.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I am so sorry.

        Sometimes I think that the adults who blow it off as drama are just as much bullies as the ones doing the blatant bullying. I think these adults cause just as much harm as the bullies do.

        I hope you find many peaceful people to share your life/days with.

    15. seejay*

      My sister and I spent 5 years harassed by a family of kids (6 of them across three families) that spent the entire ride harassing us on the way home. They called us names, made fun of our mom when they found out she was in AA (when we were still struggling to understand her alcoholism recovery and addiction), threw school supplies at us (including getting me in the eye), and made our lives hell. This was when my sister was also lashing out in anger at me because of the problems in my parents’ marriage. This was between age 7 to 12.

      During this time, for one year, I had a teacher that would scream at me if I didn’t pay attention in his class or do things “his way”. I went from a straight A, above average, gifted student to struggling.

      Between age 7 to 15, I dealt with a range of people that bullied me by either pulling my hair, making fun of my clothes because my family was poor and struggling, making fun of the toys I had, making fun of the things I liked to draw, poking fun at my weight or my height, making fun of being smart, being bad at sports, I was ostracized from groups, my taste in music was mocked because it wasn’t what everyone else listened to. When I just wanted to fit in, no one would let me. It was a blow to my self-esteem when I didn’t know how to deal with it. When I tried to tell my mom about it, her answer was “pray for them” instead of giving me tools to actually handle it, so instead I withdrew. I got into angry music, I became suicidal, I lashed out and I engaged in destructive behaviour. Why? Because no one listened to me. Bullying wasn’t taken seriously, it was “kids are being kids, he just likes you, just ignore them, they’ll go away”. If I tried to fight back or lash out, I got hurt worse because I was smaller. Words do hurt when people know what to say that gets under your armour.

      So yes… bullying can leave serious mental and emotional scars that last a lifetime. I still struggle with some of the crap that I dealt with back then. Some of it I’ve managed to shake off, but occasionally it crops up. I had to deal with a workplace bully for the past few years, and for the most part I could ignore it, but once in a blue moon, she’d say or do something and all the emotions and feelings from when I was 10 would hit me like a brick and I’d just be filled with uncontrollable shame… usually followed by almost unrestrained anger. So no, it’s not over-reacting to say “no, I will not work with my highschool bully, it’s them or me.”

      1. Arpai*

        “He just likes you” are the worst words ever uttered by any adult to a child ever. I endured so much abuse from my bully because I had a crush on him and my parents told me he was “teasing” me because he liked me. So I took whatever he dished out thinking that somewhere deep down inside, he had a crush on me too.

        Spoiler alert: He did not.

        1. seejay*

          There was one boy in my grade 7/8 years that picked on a lot of girls. Some he liked, some he didn’t, but his bullying came across the exact same way: sexually harassing us. Some of us spoke up, some didn’t. I knew at aged 11/12 that being groped by a guy I hated and who disliked me wasn’t right but there were adults that were just passing it off as “he just likes the girls in his class”.

          Excuse me what da fak?

        2. Nolan*

          Followed closely by, “they’re just picking on you because they’re jealous of you.”

          Nope, that’s not why they did it. And sure, I realized that was bs almost immediately, but all that lead to was me internalizing every mean thing ever said to me. In my mid 30s and deep down, I still believe every word of it.

          1. AMG*

            Yeah, the boys that bullied me did NOT like me. They hated me unequivocally. When someone hurts my kids I am absolutely not making light of it.

      3. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

        I’m sorry that happened. None of it was acceptable. What you describe is quite familiar to me. Hope that today is a good day for you.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I am so very sorry.

        Thank you for posting this, you have made a very clear and very strong point.

    16. The RO-Cat*

      One thing worth saying – maybe – is that, as it happens in many human-to-human interactions, the intensity of a behaviour on the other is determined partly by the behavior itself and partly by its perception on the receiving side. Some kids get heavily bullied and get out (relatively) okay from the experience, others get (what others might call) mildly bullied and attempt suicide. There’s a whole range of reactions from the bullied and, perhaps excepting the most extreme ones, *any* reaction is normal and natural. We – you, me, others non-involved – can have an opinion, but I don’t think we it is our place to attempt to judge, classify or otherwise assess other’s reactions by our own standards. Not because it’s verboten, but because it’s a futile endeavour (plus, you risk coming across as lacking empathy – not a really useful image to project, if I might say so). So, as extreme as ex-classmate’s reaction might appear to you, it is totally legit *in her experience*. And that, in and of itself, would be enough for me – were I the OP – to apologize sincerely, move on and let life bring a repair of the relationship if it ever decides to do that.

    17. Aphrodite*

      Bullying takes various forms but at its foundation lies intentional cruelty. I was never physically assaulted but I was battered horribly emotionally–even now, many decades later, I cannot think of all of it from other students and even from some teachers in both grammar and high school without tears and even sobs because my home life was also dysfunctional: alcoholism ruled there and I had no one at any time to talk to nor anyone to defend me nor any time or place I could get away from it. Despite years of therapy the pain is still very much there, though certainly lessened and to some degree healed. I am a good person who has survived that. But discounting the pain this person is in to the point of refusing to work with the OP does not surprise me at all. In her position, there are a number of people I’d refuse to work with as well to the point of leaving a job I loved.

    18. Just Another Techie*

      I’m sure there are things that she did as a teenager that she would rather not have brought up. I say this as a former teacher, most teens do bad stuff that they’d rather forget.

      This attitude from my high school teachers, just shrugging off bullying like it’s NBD, is why I was hospitalized twice for suicide attempts in high school. For your students’ sakes, please please try to educate yourself about the reality of bullying.

      1. Roscoe*

        My point in saying that isn’t to dismiss what he may have done. But to say that a lot of people do things when they are teenagers that they wouldn’t want brought up years later in the workplace. I definitely did. I’m sure MANY people on this thread did. When I saw bullying, I definitely dealt with it. But that doesn’t mean that I think what you do when your brain is still developing should haunt you professionaly forever

        1. Observer*

          At 17, a person is old enough to know better for most of the things they do. Sure, there are some things that someone that age simply doesn’t have the background, knowledge or capacity to make appropriate decisions for. But the whole “brain is still developing” bit is a fairly bogus excuse.

        2. Gadfly*

          Unfortunately it also shouldn’t be dismissed as inconsequential either. And since we have no way in our society to both let it go and acknowledge its impact, sometimes the victims don’t get supported and sometimes the perpetrators are branded. It isn’t fair that what you do when you are stupid follows you, but neither are any of the other options.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Maybe you are right. Who am I to judge.

          But it’s a disservice to the OP to tell her that it shouldn’t matter, as many people will remember a bully 50–60 years later. In other words, for the rest of their lives. And that is reality. So maybe they shouldn’t do that, but they will anyway.

        4. Annonymouse*

          There’s a world of difference between a 12 year old deciding they don’t want to be your friend and a 17 year old.

          When your 17 in high school the cliques ate established and it isn’t easy to make new friends or join a new social group.

          This isn’t a case of OP deciding to spend more time hanging out with Tammy and Tina in their wider friend group and not Rock Star. This is OP causing complete social isolation which is a predictable consequence of what they did.

        5. Tempest*

          If you’re a teacher you come across like you have a very naive view of what bullying is and does. I’d suggest some professional development to make sure you’re not inadvertently making some kid’s life a lot worse than it has to be by minimizing what’s being done to them or what they’re going through. If you didn’t live it, please go out and educate yourself so you know the truth of people who did live it.

          Stop gaslighting the people who did live it and know better than you the effects.

    19. LizM*

      Without knowing what OP did to this woman, it’s not fair to say she’s being over dramatic.

      Luckily, I was never a target personally, but I can think of a boy in high school who targeted several friends. Knowing what I know now, I can confidently say they were sexually assaulted. At the time it was dismissed as “boys will be boys.” It took one friend years of counseling to be able to have a normal relationship with a man based on what this bully did to her.

      I absolutely would not work with that person. Looking back, I’m disgusted he wasn’t arrested for what he did, at 17 he was old enough to know better.

    20. Artemesia*

      The kind of bullying someone remembers a decade later is likely to have been torments that were continuous. It doesn’t have to rise to the level of physical assault to make life painful day after day after day.

      1. Natalie*

        I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate; it’s certainly not universal. I dwell on specific events because of how my anxiety manifests itself, not necessarily because those events were especially traumatic or continuous. I don’t think we can say that someone’s memory cycle is proof positive of anything, given how malleable human memory is.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. The problem comes in where bullies don’t know who will be the life-long walking wounded and who will not be impacted by their meanness.

        Sure the adult, grown up bully-turned-nice-person wants it all to go away. But that is not how these situations work in every instance.

    21. Bullied*

      When I was a high school freshman I was sexually assaulted at my (ex) friend’s birthday party. She and all her other friends locked me in the room with the boy who assaulted me and yelled encouragement at him through the door while they laughed and made fun of me for screaming.

      If any of those women now tried to get a job at my place of employment, I would offer a quitting ultimatum. Full stop, I will not be in a room with anyone who aided in my assault. I don’t care how bad they may feel about it now.

      2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

        Oh my God. Some people are pure evil. I am sorry and hope that you are having a good life now.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        Women still have a lot to learn.

        There are no words, my heart aches reading this.

      5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        My jaw dropped and tears welled up—I am so so so sorry. I don’t know what to say, because this level of evil is incomprehensible to me.

    22. Lily in NYC*

      My neighbor was bullied by a kid named Jeff putting firecrackers up his butt and setting them off. He was in the hospital for a week. I don’t think he would be overreacting if he said he never wanted to work with Jeff.

    23. Annonymouse*

      There is a reason solitary confinement is used as a punishment.

      The OP took away this persons friend group in high school and as a former teacher you would know to a teenager that their friends are everything to them.

      You would know that friend groups or cliques are incredibly important and once outed from one it is damn near impossible to get into another one.

      You become an outcast that no one from any social group will go near.

      Your only hope for normalcy becomes college or transferring to another school.

      So considering that Rock Star didn’t transfer and had to ride out high school with no friends mainly because of OP (who also mentions not being nice to them on top of complete social isolation) I can see them not wanting to have anything to do with OP and that is not unreasonable.

  13. chocolate lover*

    I agree with Alison’s advice to apologize because it’s the right thing to do (you admitted you weren’t very nice to her), and then move on from this company for the moment. As someone who’s been bullied in school, even though it’s been a while, I wouldn’t want to work with any of my bullies. I don’t wish them ill – but I wouldn’t want to work with them or see them on a regular basis, either.

    It sounds like you’ve matured quite a bit and recognize some of your past flaws, which is great. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like this is the right time for you and this company.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I remember a moving anecdote from someone who went to a high school reunion and wound up having a long conversation with a really lovely woman who sadly mentioned that their first child had died as a toddler. She eventually found out the woman was married to her high school tormenter. So apparently over the intervening years he had become someone who could attract a really warm, loving partner, and who had suffered a torment she would never have wished on anyone.

      People can change. But knowing that in the abstract doesn’t mean people want to sign up to spend every day with a former tormenter because, hey, maybe now they’re a nice person. Maybe they’re not. You can wish them no active disaster and still not want to relive high school with them every day–part of the benefit of being an adult is having choices about what job you take and the conditions under which you will stay or go.

    2. Anon for this*

      I am not sure the OP has — her last sentence says it all — I don’t “deserve” this. Well the other student didn’t deserve what you did to her and it had to be bad that she doesn’t want to be in the same room as you.

      1. TL -*

        OP explained what happened upthread and it honestly sounds more like unfortunately timed, badly handled teenage awkwardness than anything else.
        She can’t change what happened but she doesn’t sound like a horrible person who should never be let out in public either.

        1. Observer*

          No, she’s not a monster. But cutting someone out of your social circle and essentially taking her friend group away (as described by the OP) is a pretty awful thing to do to someone whose only crime was liking the guy the OP was dating.

          Given that it happened at 17 I’m not as ready to give it a pass as for a younger kid. On the other hand, that’s young enough that I really could see someone 10 years down really having grown past it. But when the OP can dismiss it with “I was 17” and characterize it as “something I said”, that says that the OP probably still has some growing and changing to do.

          1. TL -*

            It sounds like they had a pretty awkward friendship and the other girl thought it was more than it was.
            The OP probably was pretty bad, but in a normal, teenage, I learned from it kind of way.

            1. Observer*

              Well, it’s not clear to me that the OP really has learned, but I could be wrong about that.

              In any case I think it goes beyond “normal teenage drama”. Also, that it doesn’t really matter. Though she didn’t destroy the girl, she did do something genuinely problematic. And Rockstar doesn’t need to be a drama lama to not want to work with her.

          2. SenatorMeathooks*

            At 17, I can’t expect an individual to have perfect social graces, either. I’m not saying what happened was right, but I am saying what happened seems like standard teenage politics, or a social situation poorly handled out of immaturity and ignorance.

            1. Annonymouse*

              There a difference between wanting to spend more time with other people in your network /group instead of Rockstar and actively taking away their friends at an age/stage where you can’t make new friends.

              The former is social awkwardness and mishandling a situation the later (which happened) is an act of cruelty and bullying.

        2. AMG*

          If you read toward the end, OP has recently posted a clarification that definitely qualifies a single bullying. Still not a monster, but definitely justifies rockstar IMO.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I don’t think anyone here is saying OP can’t go out in public.

          I do think that people are expressing surprise that OP thinks this should all just go away.

  14. bullied*

    OP, you write as if you don’t remember or know what you did to your classmate in HS, but if it was bad enough that she remembers and holds a grudge, then certainly something must have happened. Please don’t bother your former classmate; write this company off as a lesson learned and just move on.

    1. Roscoe*

      I think this is so interesting, because it seems that there is basically an even split on those who would get closure from an apology years later, and those who say they would hate if that happened. Makes it hard for people to know what to do.

      1. fposte*

        I wouldn’t *mind* getting an apology from somebody who was mean to me in high school (though really for me junior high was where the mean action was), but it wouldn’t change my view on whether or not they should get a job at my company, especially if the apology was connected to their continued application.

        And assuming the OP is being literal when he says “17,” this isn’t that long ago. I’m a lot more removed from high school than that.

        1. VroomVroom*

          If it was a big company and I didn’t have to work closely with them… then whatever (and also, my opinion on it probably wouldn’t affect the hiring manager that much… and shouldn’t… if I worked hours away from where this person would work).
          BUT if the person was going to work in a small office with me and I’d have to have daily interactions with them… hell no. Even with an apology. Sure, I’m glad you got that off your chest and you aren’t a piece of sh*t human anymore, but I don’t want to see/interact with you on a daily basis (like I had to in high school).

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        It’s in the nature of apologies–they are not magical rote incantations by which all past wrongs are wiped from a slate, never again to influence anything. If they were, they wouldn’t have much weight.

      3. Recovering Adjunct*

        I’ve gotten them and I’m very cynical about them. Generally, I see it as the person wanting me to do emotional labor for them and help them feel better about themselves and the choices they’ve made.

        1. bullied*

          This is really where I’m coming from too when I say don’t bother the classmate. If it were me, I wouldn’t want the apology. I’d rather be left alone.

        2. Kelly L.*

          I got one. I was glad the guy felt bad about it, but didn’t feel any desire to resume contact. I’m sure it’s still sitting unanswered, somewhere in my FB messages. I’m not still mad, but there’s nothing to interest me in being buddies with him either.

          1. seejay*

            I got one from a person who turned on me in court. He was supposed to be my witness in a trial but wound up retracting his statement when he got up on the stand. Between him and my other witness also doing the same, I lost the court case when the judge ruled in favour of the defendant.

            What I found out afterwards was that the other witness had turned on me (for personal reasons) and both he and the defendant put pressure on the one guy (who was cousins with the defendant as well) to retract and band together with them so I’d lose, instead of telling the truth. It wasn’t hard to sway him over, even though he knew it was lying on the stand, because he was a hot mess: drug addicted, torn loyalties, easily manipulated. Unlike the other two on the stand, who looked smug and gleeful while they were telling their lies, he looked confused and torn.

            He contacted me some years later through FB. I saw that he was clean, was in a steady relationship with kids, had gone to college, was a paramedic and was helping people. He didn’t outright cite that specific incident, but he apologized for anything he had done to me in the years past and that he had tried to make up for it by doing something with his life and being a better person because what he had done had haunted him so much. It actually genuinely felt like a sincere apology and I was glad to see that he had *done* something with himself instead of being a footnote in history. I told him that I accepted his apology and I was happy to see how he’d grown, but I had also closed that door completely and wanted nothing to do with any of that particular incident and I wished him well. He never contacted me again.

            I’ve genuinely forgiven him, I’m glad he’s moved on and I *was* glad to see a heartfelt apology from him, but yes, I definitely would never ever want to be in contact with him again ever despite all that. I don’t want any sort of reminder of that event.

              1. seejay*

                I’m assuming you mean afterwards, after the court case was over and he felt bad for what happened? Doubtful. This was youth court (the defendant and I were both 17 at the time) and the judge had given a ruling of not guilty. This also all occurred back in 1992 and by the time he reached out to me to apologize, it was 2004, so a lot of time had passed. There’s probably really no point in ever dredging it back up.

                As far as I can tell, everyone involved in the whole fiasco (the defendant, other witness, and majority of the supporters) wound up staying in my home town while I left (very very far away). There’s many reasons why I don’t go back to visit and that’s one of them.

        3. Turtle Candle*

          “wanting me to do emotional labor for them” is generally how I feel about those apologies, although I could imagine an apology that actually worked for me. It’s just have to be something other than a pro forma Facebook message or similar, you know? But yeah, mostly it feels like they feel bad about having been assholes and once again want to use me to make them feel better about themselves.

          It would go triple if I knew they wanted something concrete out of me (such as rescinding my ‘if he gets hired, I walk’ statement).

        4. Advice Column Junkie*

          This is exactly how I feel. No, sorry, I’m not going to spend a moment of my life making you feel better about being a towering asshole to a vulnerable person. You get to work that out all by your lonesome, and never contact me ever again.

      5. Other Becky*

        It depends on the nature of the offense and the form of the apology. Somebody who was consistently mean to me in middle school apologized when we both had the same summer job in college. He didn’t try to make friends, just apologized and treated me like any of our other co-workers. That was kind of nice, and I appreciated it.

        On the other extreme, an abusive ex-boyfriend who had, among other things, harassed me with CONSTANT (literally) phone calls called me one day, maybe five years after we’d broken up, to apologize. This was pre-cell phones and I had moved to another city. I said, “Please never contact me again,” and hung up. I was shaky for days. My guess is that he’d joined a 12-step program and had a really lousy sponsor. I would much prefer that he had never contacted me, and I can’t help feeling like he made that apology for the sake of his own feelings, not mine.

        So what should the OP do? I don’t know. It depends on what they did and how they did it. I definitely wouldn’t advise apologizing right away; I certainly wouldn’t believe the apology was sincere if it were directed to me under these circumstances.

    2. Ty*

      I have to agree. LW doesn’t sound as if they honestly care what they did. If I were the classmate, I’d never accept an apology now. Whatever it was, it sounds like it caused bad problems for the classmate.

      I hope the LW actually reflects on this instead of just looking at it like it’s not a big deal.

    3. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Given that their memories of the OP led to a never hire decision the best thing to do is leave them alone and do not contact them. An apology is likely going to go over poorly. I was bullied badly back in school. And I did tell a manager that hiring a former bully would result in me quitting on the spot. Stay away from this person. Someone threatening to quit does not want to hear from you at all.

  15. Anonymous Educator*

    I think to appear (and not just be) sincere, you want to apologize after you’ve already secured a job at another company.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        And, depending on how big the industry is where you live, make sure that your behavior is impeccable from the moment you start that job at that other company, and that your professional reputation precedes you more than your behavior in high school does from here on in. Because if any of my high school bullies starting inching their way into my field (even if they were Saint Potspout and Pope Teabag of my professional field), I’d make sure that the word that they should not be considered for hiring.

        1. TootsNYC*

          important!

          And remember that this is a niche industry, and people move around–so everyone at the old classmate’s company knows about you to some degree.

          So you need to manage your reputation very carefully.

        2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I’m really struggling to understand this perspective.

          I was bullied, albeit not as seriously as some of the folks who are sharing their stories on this thread. But that was a long time ago (twice as long for me as for the OP; I’m in my late 30s), and I wouldn’t hesitate to work with any of my former tormentors at this point. I’m not who I was when I was in high school, thank god, and I assume that they are not either.

          But that’s not actually what I’m questioning — I understand that position, even though I don’t share it. If an employee is uncomfortable working with someone else and their boss backs them up, more power to both of them: to the employee for knowing their boundaries and protecting themselves, and to the employer for creating the environment a valued employee needs to succeed.

          But taking a step further and trying to blacklist someone from an entire field of work? I don’t understand that. It goes beyond protecting yourself personally to, I don’t know, actively trying to damage someone else’s life.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yeah, I agree with that. Say you won’t work with her, sure, but trying to blacklist her from a whole field is too much, unless there’s much more to this that we don’t know.

            1. Kowalski! Options!*

              It would have to depend on what the field is and how much people talk (which isn’t unthinkable in an industry of 30-40 practitioners in one area). The bullied person in question might decide that discretion is the better part of valor and not say anything, but I’ve worked in some industries (like broadcast media and the performing arts) where, if the word gets out that you’re persona non grata, you’d best be looking elsewhere.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Sure. Reputation gets around. But your initial comment suggested that you would actively work to prevent their working in your field, and I hope you’ll reconsider that.

                1. Kowalski! Options!*

                  Let me put it this way: I wouldn’t actively block them if they happened to be in the same field as I was. If they expected to get any help entering the organization I work for, they’d be disappointed and, probably, deflected.

            2. Artemesia*

              I agree but revenge is a dish best savored cold and I can imagine someone whose life was made a misery wanting to wreak vengeance.

              If this were a sexual harasser for example on your first job, it would be easy to sympathize with wanting to see him blackballed from the industry if you could manage it.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Yes, I would have more sympathy for that situation — because the harassment occurred in adulthood (and in the workplace).

            3. JB*

              Depending on the size of the field, there may not be a middle option. Word will get around that Sansa threatened to quit if her company hired Cersei–that’s some pretty fantastic gossip there–and anyone who heard that and respected Sansa would likely take that into account when reviewing Cersei’s application at their company, even if Sansa didn’t say a word to them.

            4. Kfox (OP)*

              This is part of why I wrote to you. Rock Star is very well connected in our niche industry. I saw on Twitter just this morning she’d won another prestigious award. She’s in the running for an elected position with a national professional organization. I’m a little afraid that she might be able to prevent me from getting a job not just in our city, but in our industry — if she wanted to. I have no evidence one way or another.

              1. Kowalski! Options!*

                Oof. Well, she *might* – or she might not. This is where really kicking butt at your job and building social capital with people in your industry could help, so that you become known for the great work that you do.

              2. Lilo*

                Well, nothing indicates she would go that far. Best thing for you is to move on and try to make your own reputation in the field. And if you find yourself asked about Rockstar, you be as polite and nice as possible because otherwise, you would just confirm any rumor about you. I would say this to anyone trying to break into a niche field: niche fields are tough. Have a back up plan.

              3. DrAtos*

                That is very unfortunate for you. I doubt that she would go so far as to ruin your career even if you end up working with another company. If you remain in the same state and she is the rock star she appears to be, it could be inevitable that you will run into her at some point whether it is at a meeting, this professional organization, or at a conference. After reading the details of what really happened between the two of you, I’m now on the fence about whether you should send her an apology at this time. Your only choice is to move on and attempt to find a job with another company. Perhaps when the opportunity presents itself and you see her at one of these professional events, congratulate her on her success and find a time when you can apologize to her for what happened in high school, either via email or in a face to face conversation. If that opportunity never happens, then leave the past behind and hope that she doesn’t have any further influence on your career.

              4. Amy*

                Has she given any sign of trying to do that? If not, I’d cross that bridge when and if you come to it. I don’t think you can really do anything differently regardless; if she is trying to blacklist you, it sounds like there isn’t much you could do to stop her, and if she’s not, then there’s no problem. Either way, your next step is to apply to companies where you won’t be interacting with her on a daily basis and see what happens.

            5. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

              I think it’s also relevant that an acquaintance pulled OP aside to warn her before this latest rejection. That shows that the acquaintance had some knowledge of the situation, so if the acquaintance is not in hiring or in the Classmate’s office, there shouldn’t be a reason for this info to have spread unless it’s really getting around in a gossipy way. That gossipy way is how OP’s reputation can get damaged. The Classmate may even be innocent in it – she may have simply told her manager or the hiring manager about OP, and that person escalated or shared it. Gossip is a relentless monster and some people love feeding it. Those people who are aware of the situation at this company may move on to other companies and remember this if OP’s app comes across.

              1. Kfox (OP)*

                It’s my understanding that they were going to bring me in for an interview for the second position. One of the women I’d interviewed with before remembered me making a comment about growing up in the area and going to X high school and made a comment about Rock Star. “Oh! I’m about to set up an interview with Kfox. She’s about your age, right?” Rock Star apparently said politely she would not work with me because I was a bully in high school, which was then reiterated to the hiring committee.

                My acquaintance was not on the hiring committee, but she would’ve worked closely with the position.

                1. Recovering Adjunct*

                  I’m raising my eyebrows a bit at the acquaintance who took you out to coffee to tell you all of this. I don’t really understand why she would do that if you two aren’t close friends.

          2. PlainJane*

            I agree wholeheartedly. I was bullied pretty severely, but I don’t hold grudges (for my own benefit; I’m no selfless saint). Others have every right to feel differently, but if you’re still angry enough after a decade or more that you want to blacklist someone, that’s a bit extreme.

        3. Ann O'Nemity*

          Eye for an eye? Or because victims of bullying are more likely to become bullies themselves?

          1. Kowalski! Options!*

            Not really “eye for an eye”, so much as it — as others have pointed out — bullies don’t always grow out of the behaviour you can only go on the behavior that you’ve seen in the past, and I’d be more likely to favor an experienced candidate who I don’t have a history with, rather than a relative newcomer to the field with whom I have had less-than-optimal interactions with in the past. Interpersonal skills form a significant part of workplace know-how, and if my past interpersonal reactions with a person are enough to give me flashbacks….
            This isn’t limited to people from high school; I’d be the same way with some bullying bosses I’ve had in the past, too.

            1. Kowalski! Options!*

              (Apologies for the grammatical lapses in the above response. In spite of the intervening decades and years of therapy, the emotions are still raw.)

          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            What about “this is a person about whom I have such strong feelings I couldn’t work effectively with them.”

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I agree with this. If she encounters you as a professional who is safely removed a few steps over at a different company, you have some shot at slowly establishing a new adult dynamic that would mean you could someday see each other more frequently and it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for her.

      And the after timeline–that removes the ‘sorry if you were somehow hurt, so please let me spend my days with you once again’ aspect of apologizing while trying to break into the field.

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. After you get a job elsewhere, I would also advise the OP to take advantage of a EAP, etc. to explore their past behavior in therapy. While it may seem like you’re having issues from 10 years ago held against you, I’m wondering if you’ve simply moved on to the more adult versions of the same bullying attitudes (gaslighting vs. overt ridicule, for example).

    3. SarahTheEntwife*

      +1, especially since it sounds like this is a small enough industry that they might end up bumping into each other in professional settings anyway.

    6. Em too*

      Would it help to apologies and also say that you will be looking elsewhere for a job. And, of course, do so

    7. Thinking Outside the Boss*

      Definitely this!

      Any other form of apology will just seem like the OP wants a job.

      Great advice!!

    8. jules*

      I’d say either this, or make it very clear in your apology that you understand why she wouldn’t want to work with you and that you’ll respect her wishes and not apply again.

  16. AMG*

    You know, I’ve seen a few high school bullies who don’t appear to have changed a single bit from school. Speaking as the only 9-year-old (that I knew of) at my school who wanted to commit suicide because of the daily unrelenting torment, I can see why she’s blocking you. If it was anything like what I remember from school, it equated to emotional abuse and psychological torture.

    Some people grow up, some don’t, and in your case you just have to consider what the effect of your behavior had to make someone do this. Is it really unfair? You weren’t the person bullied so it’s probably hard for you to say what’s fair and what isn’t.

    I don’t know you, but I don’t see you really reflecting on that much in this post. I’d start there, regardless of where you job search and then you’ll know what you need to say in your apology when you’re truly sorry.

    1. anon for this*

      I agree. I started feeling suicidal when I was seven because of the bullying (and yes, it was emotional abuse and psychological torture). I’ve been in therapy for nearly twenty years and I’ll spend the rest of my life trying to cope with the psychological scars that have been left on me. I’ve let go of the hatred as best I can, but there’s no way I could deal with my bullies on a daily basis in any context, let alone professionally.
      I would never deliberately hurt anyone, not even those who’ve hurt me so much, but I certainly wouldn’t go out of my way to help them, and I wouldn’t allow them to benefit at my psychological cost. I don’t care how much they’ve changed. They’re still the people who’ve caused me damage that will last the rest of my life. I don’t care that they were children. I don’t even care that they had no idea of the consequences they might inflict. The damage is still done.
      If you were one of my bullies and I were blocking you working in your industry, I would say that of the two of us, you were the lucky one. I’d love to be able to relocate or work in a less than ideal industry and shed the trauma, mental illness, and everything else that haunts me.

      1. AMG*

        I’m so sorry you are still hurting. Sometimes I look back on it all and I get angry too. It changes the way you look at yourself and constantly having to reframe can get tiring. Good for you for fighting through this. You deserve to be free of it. I think you are lovely, whoever you are. <3

    2. Cass*

      Well said. I started to comment but couldn’t bring myself to finish it because I’m having trouble getting past my belief that the only reason OP has considered apologizing is because he’s dealing with the inconvenience of not being able to get a job with this particular employer. I think OP could benefit from putting the job stuff aside and reflect on what he may (or may not have) done to make someone have that kind of reaction to him.

    3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I think people who have not been bullied (or not been bullied severely) don’t understand the PTSD and panic that stems from seeing a former bully. It can literally feel like you’re going to die (again).

      Thank you so much for sharing your experience, AMG. I’m deeply and truly sorry that you went through this, but you’re emphasizing a really important dynamic that OP needs to understand in order to move forward from this.

    4. Relly*

      This thread is both very hard and very healing for me. When I tell people I was suicidal before I even understood the idea — sitting up at night trying to find any way at all not to have to get up the next morning and go back to school, working through plans and giving up hope and wishing there was a way out — they think I’m exaggerating. I was eight. It was thirty years ago. I can still feel that clawing panic.

  17. iseeshiny*

    What a nicely balanced response. My personal opinion is that while it sucks to still be reaping the consequences of your actions years down the line, it happens to a lot of people and it’s just something you have to deal with. I am remembering my middle school bully when I say this, and while I doubt she ever thinks of me, fifteen-twenty years later I still can clearly remember what she put me through and I would want absolutely nothing to do with her today even with an apology. I treated some people pretty poorly as an older teen, too, and I completely accept that if I ran into them now they wouldn’t want me working with them either. Sometimes we burn bridges before we know they’re there or that we’ll want to cross them someday, and that’s just how it is.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      Agreed. I was the victim of some mean-girl type crap when I was in middle school. My family was living in the Middle East at the time, and the usual SOP was that my dad would get 2 weeks of vacation a year, plus another month of leave, when we would come back to the US and see family, my parents would tend to things they needed to do in person, and so on.

      Twice while away, this horrible, awful girl who was part of the “in” group swooped in and stole my best friend, and when I got back, neither of them wanted to have anything to do with me because they didn’t want to be drummed out of the group of cool kids. She was an awful, horrible person who was just mean to me in general and because she was the ringleader, others followed her lead.

      About 5 years ago, I was going to the UK for work, and my mom mentioned that one of these girls — who had been enticed into the cool kids crowd — was living in London, and she suggested looking her up so we could have dinner. I tracked her down on Facebook and was about to send a friend request, when who should I notice in her friend list but the boss bitch herself? I not only didn’t send the friend request, I blocked the mean girl, because even though she lives in another state, I do not want my existence to re-register on her radar, now or ever. I will admit that I checked out her page, and she’s married with at least one daughter, who I’m sure she’s raising to be just as awful as she was. When I blocked her, I thought to myself, “Geez, Ann, it’s been 35 years. Can’t you just let it go?” And then thought, “Nope, I can’t.” And I’m fine with that.

      I can’t imagine having to work with that wretched, awful person, and what she did to me pales in comparison to what others here have said they went through.

      1. Lilo*

        Yeah I had this girl my senior year of college lie to and manipulate my best friend into not speaking to me. (Best friend got over it and admitted her role in this and apologized but it was a miserable 3 months). She also tied to coerce my friend into some shady stuff, and friend probably had far worse than I did. When said manipulator tried to friend me on social media you bet I blocked her.

        1. Lilo*

          Sorry it was high school, not college. I did experience some mean girl clique type stuff in my sorority, but not kept high school.

  18. Jessie the First (or second)*

    OP, I really recommend that if you decide to apologize, you do not make any attempt to minimize your high school behavior. I get the “minimizing” vibe all through your letter here to AAM: you weren’t that nice, probably pretty awful, shouldn’t be blacklisted for something you said when you were 17. That first one and the last one are pretty trivializing. Is the problem really just something you said? Was the problem really that maybe you just weren’t nice? 10 years later and your classmate refuses to work with you – it was probably lots and lots and lots worse, right?

    If you can’t bring yourself to really acknowledge how you treated this person, and how terrible it was (I’m assuming it was way worse than your few sentences here because of the rest of the content of your letter and that you don’t really deny that there may be some cause for this) then an apology will backfire.

    As Allison says, though, an apology just to try to get a job will also likely backfire. I’d set my sights on other companies if I were you.

    1. AMG*

      I think that minimizing is what’s really bothering me about this letter. OP, you lost the right to decide how bad this was a long time ago and you never had the right to decide how this person should feel about you.

        1. Anna*

          It’s not minimizing it as it’s the accepted language EVERYONE, even educators, use. Don’t jump on the OP for using the word that’s used by everyone.

          1. RVA Cat*

            I didn’t mean to jump on the OP. Yes, it is the accepted term, sorry for any confusion – my point was about how we minimize it as a society.

    3. Stop That Goat*

      Definitely seems more concerned with her blacklist than facing the harm that she inflicted.

      1. Jen in Oregon*

        This. The OP doesn’t even acknowledge that it was bullying, assuming the OP didn’t write the headline:

        “I’ll be honest — I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl.”

        and

        “I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17”

        These are the only references the OP makes to his/her own behavior.

        An apology at this point would possibly/probably make things worse because it would be seen as a self-serving, manipulative ploy. I agree that if/when an apology is offered, it should come after a lot of soul searching AND after another job has been secured by the OP.

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      Also, OP, you say you’re in your late 20s, and that this something happened when you were 17. That’s less than 10 years. That’s not a lot of time.

      Also, you’re not being “punished” in the sense that this person is actively seeking retribution; from what your acquaintance said, she was setting boundaries to protect herself. It really, really sucks that it means you’re not being considered at this company, but it’s the same principle that would get you an inside track if a current employee really wanted to work with you because you were super nice to them in high school.

      1. Taylor Swift*

        Yeah, it’s really not a punishment. It’s a consequence of the LW’s past actions.

        1. Izacus*

          Punishment is by definition a consequence of someone’s actions. And it fits the description.

      2. detached anon*

        Also, you’re not being “punished”… she was setting boundaries to protect herself.

        This. So very much this!

    5. Fake Eleanor*

      It’s possible both that 1) what the OP did was inarguably horrible behavior, but that 2) the OP doesn’t really remember the details.

      The OP certainly could be minimizing, which is not great, but she could also be genuinely unsure of what specific behaviors or patterns she did. Which is tricky, because that’ll look a lot like minimizing. Her victim thought it was hell, but for the OP, it was just high school.

      All that said, I think the suggestions to get some feedback from other classmates and then genuinely apologize once her career is established elsewhere are good ones.

      1. paul*

        Hell, I’ll even allow a third option: that it wasn’t even really that awful and the rock star is being a bit dramatic; that isn’t where I’m leaning (but of course I’m biased myself)… but it is still a possibility and we don’t have enough data to know for sure.

        It also just doesn’t change what options OP has going forward.

    6. dawnsnameishers*

      Thanks, I’ve been waiting for someone to point out how minimizing the OP was. Nothing in the letter struck me as truly owning the damage done; I felt through the entire letter that the OP saw themself as the victim.

    7. Roscoe*

      IN fairness, this is a blog about employment, not about therapy. So the OP is writing to find out about how to handle their job situation. I feel like its fair to focus on that aspect.

      1. KR*

        Yeah, same. Sometimes I feel like conversations like this edge on picking apart the OPs word choice. They didn’t bully us – they shouldn’t​ have to worry about if they sound appropriately apologetic in their letter for us.

      2. Annonymouse*

        it is but you can do it while acknowledging you played a big part in it.

        Had OP said “someone I treated badly and hurt doesn’t want to work with me, how do I make this right and show them I’ve changed? Or “I want to apologise – because I feel bad about what I did and I want to preserve my good work reputation.”

        I’d be more on board.

        The fact op is coming across as “the “terrible” (minimising the issue) thing I did to someone has come back to bite me in the ass, I don’t like it, it isn’t fair, help me get a job at awesome place”

        Makes many of us less sympathetic.

        And you can bet it would be terrible if someone tells their bosses (no matter how politely and professionally) if you hire OP I’m leaving.

        OP seems to only care about what’s in it for them and really seems not to get it if they are still pushing to get hired at a company where the person they bullied has made it clear it isn’t going to happen.

  19. Jeanne*

    How awful. I feel for you and I feel for her. I think you should send a handwritten, sincere apology. That’s the adult, moral thing to do. But then, unfortunately, you have to let it go. I don’t know how bad you really were. I recently went to the funeral of a bullied girl who killed herself. Your victim could be mentally quite scarred. Apologize with real compassion and humility.

  20. Falling Diphthong*

    The reason the first seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer resonate so deeply is that they are set in high school, when one has no choice about sticking it out. Yeah, your high school is on the literal hell’s mouth, the swim team are being turned into fish people, but if you can’t convince your parents to move elsewhere you put your head down and attempt to tough it out–and if you’re 15 or 16, then “Well just another 3 years!” is not a chirpy bit of reassurance. It’s a deadline you cling to with your fingernails, trying to hold out until you reach the age when you can make your own choices about where to live.

    OP, as successful as she is now, it sounds like she is not ready to relive high school. You might have put those days behind you, but it sounds like she can’t. (Having been bullied in high school–you know how people can be mature 30 year olds until Thanksgiving, when they revert to 12 as their siblings revert to 10 and 14? Just because you logically want to shed that time doesn’t mean your psyche cooperates when you dive chin deep into reminders of your old role.) I really think you need to look at other companies and write off hers for now.

  21. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    “I worked so hard for so long to get the training required for this type of work, and I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17.”

    So…I wasn’t bullied, much. I didn’t make it rewarding to push me around physically, and I was too ready with a torrent of verbal assaults to make it much fun to insult me. I mostly got ostracized. But I do have a perspective on bullies, OP, that I think you need to hear.

    But the thing you need to understand is that you own all the things you said to people, back when you were taking out being 17 on others. You own it as much as the mouth that formed the words, the face that scowled, the eyes that glared. That’s on you, those are marks on your soul, and marks you left on others. You may feel that you’re a nicer person than you were back then, and you may not fully understand how what you said to this person cut deeper than a knife. You may feel that you’re owed forgiveness, or at least a chance to explain yourself. And some people you cut might be inclined to forgive, but time does not heal all wounds and forgive all sins. And even a decade later, even though your moral compass wasn’t yet fully calibrated, even though you probably had storms in your own life that left you lashing out…you still own what you did. And sometimes, the chickens come home to roost. This is how social consequences work.

    I will tell you, though, that frantically apologizing now that the bill needs paid is not a good look. It’s hard to sound genuine and heartfelt when you’re trying to rebuild a burnt bridge you didn’t even understand was out.

    2. paul*

      I like the Clint Eastwood line: “Deserves got nothing to do with it.”
      Granting OP benefit of the doubt and assuming they’re nicer and well adjusted now, that really may not matter.

      There were 4 kids in particular in HS that were awful to me, and I don’t care if they’re saints now, I’m not working with them. When I heard–during college so maybe 2-3 years after leaving HS–that one got killed in a wreck, I felt relief and a little joy. That’s not rational, and it isn’t pretty, but yeah, when people hurt you badly enough you just don’t always care, about what they are now. You just remember what they were then and don’t want to have a thing to do with them.

      2. Relly*

        My mom told me that one of my bullies died in an accident. She said it was a tragedy, for anyone to die so young. I told her that I felt nothing. She was horrified.

        1. Kowalski! Options!*

          True (if horrifying) story: One of my high school bullies was killed by someone he had bullied as an adult (in an unfortunate incident that involved hunting, guns, booze and verbal abuse). It was like a weight had lifted off my shoulders.
          I just hope the OP takes the time to read these responses to gain greater insight into how much harm is caused by bullying.

          1. RVA Cat*

            I imagine there are many less extreme versions of this, where instead of dying the bully goes to prison.

          2. Michele*

            I understand. As I posted above, when one of the boys who sexually harassed me in junior high had a bad motorcycle accident, I felt like he deserved it.

        2. AMG*

          I understand this. A girl I knew made fun of a mentally challenged girl–viciously, but in such a way that the target didn’t understand what was happening. Bully ended up getting suspended for 3 days and cried foul.
          Fast forward to now, and she has a daughter who has severe developmental disabilities and will never be independent. Bully seems like an okay adult today, but I can’t help wonder if she ever thinks about the irony of what she did to that little girl in junior high school. Sad all the way around.

          1. KG, Ph.D.*

            “They all felt something, but I felt nothing! …except the feeling that this bullsh*t was absurd.”

      3. Megan M.*

        OP, I think you’re going to have to move on from this company, and I wouldn’t try to apologize to this girl. I think it will definitely come across as self-serving and insincere, especially since you don’t seem to particularly remember how you treated her. Your acquaintance did you a favor by letting you know you were wasting your time applying, and why. There’s nothing more you can do except focus on companies you have a chance at getting hired at.

      4. Cleopatra Jones*

        Yep, that’s how I feel about my HS bully. I still carry the scar above my eyebrow where she punched me (while wearing a ring to specifically inflict damage) when I stepped off of the bus.

        I’m sad that she’s suffering from brain cancer because she’s still very young but a big part of me feels like it’s sweet karmic justice for the hell that she inflicted on me in HS. To this day, I still have no idea why I had the target on my back.

      5. VroomVroom*

        There was one guy who was particularly mean to me (not in the group of mean-girls, but friends with them). His parents were friends with my parents though… it was a weird dynamic.

        Anyway, he died from alcohol poisoning sophomore year of college. I went to the funeral with my mom, but I remember when she told me thinking, “huh, good riddance.” I still feel like a jerk for that reaction but… he was a budding alcoholic, and a total asshole to anyone who he didn’t think being nice/sucking up to would benefit his social station.

        1. only acting normal*

          Ugh. Weird family friends dynamic sucks.
          My mother used to give me regular updates on my bully’s happy adult life (well into my 30’s) because mum was friends and neighbours with the girl’s mother. After asking her to stop nicely many times, eventually we had a massive row (where I reminded her of the time the bully tried to get me expelled with her mother’s help) and she said she didn’t know it was that bad – a fair bit of “girls will be girls” / “she’s just jealous of you” was in play. But at least the updates stopped.

    3. GertietheDino*

      If my school bully wanted a job where I work, I’d have to meet them, review their qualifications against my memories and make a sound decision. But most likely, she ain’t getting that job.

      1. BananaPants*

        Yup. That’s where I am. I wasn’t bullied physically and I did have friends – I was simply ostracized and had horrid things said about me by the popular people. Constantly. For all of middle and high school.

        If one of those popular people came seeking an entry level job in my organization, I’d be civil and interview them – but they almost certainly won’t be getting the job in the end. I don’t wish bad things to happen to any of them, but I also don’t want to have to see them every day or have to work with people who made my life so unpleasant for 7 years straight.

    5. EternalAdmin*

      Well said. OP screenshot this and begin to understand how your behavior, anywhere, affects others.

    7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      This is so excellently and precisely written—thank you for sharing it, TNMBOIS.

    8. specialist*

      This is a very well-written post. Alison is the expert here. I don’t pretend to be in a position to counter her advice.

      However, I can say that there are some people from my past who I would block from employment for life. Few, but some. I am not someone who is an easy target for bullies.

      As an employer, if I were in this situation I would blacklist you. It wouldn’t matter to me if the top performing employee left. The fact that someone I respected refused to work with you would be enough of a red flag that I wouldn’t ever hire you. I think you would be better off to just forget that company.

      I agree with the other posters. Your letter is more about how this affects you. The apology can backfire in a big way. I suspect that you would benefit from some time with someone who could help you get a better handle on that part of your life. It may help you prepare a more acceptable apology and to come to terms with the actions that put you in this situation.

    9. Handy nickname*

      TNMBOIS, I wish we could be friends in real life. This was beautifully put. Thank you.

  22. Another person*

    Do you even remember what you did to her in high school? In my experience the victims of bullying always remember what caused the scars but the bullies rarely do. It’s great she overcame whatever it was and is a huge success today. It doesn’t always turn out that way for young people who are bullied in school.

    At any rate, if you apologize, don’t do it because you think it will change your job prospects, do it because it’s the right thing to do.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I was just thinking about that this morning, when I had a very sharp memory of a popular girl making fun of me in front of my entire Spanish class. This morning I thought to myself that she probably doesn’t remember a bit of it, but I remember it like it was yesterday.

      Can’t say I’d be interested in hiring her if her resume ever landed on my desk.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Same here. A classmate of mine organized a campaign of religious-based harassment against me that lasted for the last two years of high school. I really don’t care that it was over a decade ago — if someone handed me this guy’s resume, I wouldn’t even look twice at it, and if I found out he might be hired into my office, I would go blazing to my manager.

      2. Temperance*

        Yep. I’ll never forget when the class ahole looked at me, after the teacher told me I had to join ahole’s project group, and saying, as loudly as possible, that I wasn’t welcome to join her and it was disgusting and pathetic that I thought I could.

        I’m endlessly terrified that the monster who terrorized all the poor, less attractive girls in our grade is somehow a kindergarten teacher, because her family is well-connected, which enabled her sheer bitchitude. I was so happy when she didn’t make captain of our cheerleading squad.

        1. LawBee*

          I see one of our school’s “mean girls” around town now and then. Every time, I fondly remember when she peed her pants in ninth grade, right in front of Popular JV Quarterback. It was a glorious moment.

        2. Mononymous*

          The worst bully from my school years is now a licensed COUNSELOR. Who apparently serves families and children. *facepalm*

          A quick google search just turned up that he also got a DUI with a child in the car last year, so there’s that. Ugh.

      3. Megan M.*

        Totally. There was a guy at my high school that said some really hurtful things about me to half the class (they were having a group discussion and he didn’t realize I could hear every word he was saying.) I ran into him a year or two after that and it was clear that he had no idea who I was. It just made me even more angry. I heard he passed away several years ago, and I wasn’t sad in the least.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      It’s also true for people who witness the bullying. I remember, very vividly, the way that people treated a classmate of mine in elementary school. She was a Jehovah’s Witness, and in retrospect, I suspect she was being neglected and physically abused. Those memories are seared in my mind, and I wasn’t even the target. If any of those classmates applied for jobs, now, I would absolutely be evaluating them for whether they were still that insensitive and cruel.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        You know, this is a very good point. Bullying can be very distressing to those who witness it also. At OldExjob, BullyBoss was absolutely horrible to a coworker and we couldn’t really make him stop. Coworker didn’t do anything either, because he needed the job. I hated watching this every day.

        Of course I didn’t let him bully me, but that didn’t make it any less awful. In school, watching, you always wonder if you’re going to be next.

  23. Stop That Goat*

    Eh, I think an apology would be self-serving. You sound more concerned with the fact that are blacklisted instead of remorseful for any psychological/physical damage that you inflicted on her. Apologizing is the right thing to do but I don’t see how she’s going to see it as anything other than you trying to get your foot in the door.

    I don’t know about her but that wouldn’t be near enough for me to want to work with/around my bullies. Consequences suck sometimes.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      If on the heels of me telling my boss that I’d quit if they hired the bully, they tried to apologize with an email sent to my work address…..I’d probably erupt like a solar flare. Right thing or not, heartfelt or not, the optics are so terrible.

      1. Stop That Goat*

        Exactly! Trying to reach out in this situation is going to dredge up all sorts of feelings. The OP is going to see right through it.

        1. I used to be Murphy*

          And reinforce a view point (accurate or not) that the OP still only cares about themselves. It would fuel the fire in me, not drench it.

      2. Kyrielle*

        I would be furious and wondering who told them (and I might even ask my boss if they did, but I don’t know if I’d have the guts). I’d feel…stalked? Hounded, maybe.

        (Granted I am lucky enough not to have a bully that was bad enough that I’d refuse to work with him or her – now. Much closer to when it happened, some of them I would have.)

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Or show the letter to the boss and say, “See, I told you there was a huge problem with this person.”

      3. the_scientist*

        Indeed. I think it’s also playing into a common social trope, which is that we’ve twisted the concept of “forgiveness” so that it also means “absolution.” And with that, the social expectation that forgiving someone means pretending that nothing bad every happened.

        That’s……not really how it works. Forgiveness is more like not letting someone live rent-free in your head anymore, but it doesn’t mean that you have to be willing to pretend you like them, or anything. Even if the Rock Star accepts the OP’s apology (unlikely, and I agree the optics are terrible), the Rock Star is under no obligation to change her opinion about the OP.

        1. Lilo*

          I don’t think you even have to be the victim to say “Nope. No absolution for you.” One of my cousins committed a horrible, horrible crime against his girlfriend. He’ll be out of prison in a few years. I honestly don’t care if his girlfriend forgives him, I will not spend time with him anymore.

  24. Catherine from Canada*

    I would like to add that I’m not sure _how_ you can even make that apology.
    If you send an e-mail to her work address, it will look like you’re just doing it to get the job.
    On the other hand, if you somehow find her Facebook, or LinkedIn, or personal e-mail, it’ll look stalkerish.
    Coincidentally “bump into her”? Even worse.
    Asking for a face to face, outside of work hours, each of you with a second _might_ work, if you sound truly contrite and sincere.
    But if Ken J from grade school and high school were ever to try to apologize to me, I’d turn around and walk away (kicking myself for not having the nerve to punch him in the face, while simultaenously congratulating myself for my self control).

  25. bunniferous*

    Okay, a decade has gone by. You said you were PROBABLY awful to this girl.

    You have more soulsearching to do.

    I hope you have changed. But know barring certain circumstances (like finding God or otherwise having an epiphany) that people generally are who they are.

    If you do reach out to your former victim, do not do it via her work email. And write off that company. Even if she were to change her mind, the well is poisoned for you there at least for now.
    (I was a former bullied student. I am now FB friends with one of my former tormentors, and I have had at least one other tormentor apologize sincerely to me. I know people can and do change, but you need to understand how deep this stuff affects those of us on the receiving end of that kind of pain.)

  26. Christian Troy*

    I’ll be honest: I wouldn’t reach out and I wouldn’t continue to apply for jobs at this company.

    I had a girl who was not nice to me in middle school approach me about two years ago at the grocery store and I refused to respond. I’m not saying my response was right or fair or whatever, but as an adult, I realized I had control over who I communicated with and I didn’t need to pretend to be cordial to people who weren’t nice to me. If this woman has already threatened to quit over you getting an offer, I’d say it doesn’t look great that things could change.

    1. Dienna Howard*

      …as an adult, I realized I had control over who I communicated with and I didn’t need to pretend to be cordial to people who weren’t nice to me.

      Yes. That is one of the greatest things about being an adult.

  27. PNW Jenn*

    “Be nice to nerds because you’ll work for them someday” has never rung more true.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Right? I don’t want to be mean to the OP, but this is seriously every nerd’s dream. Karma in full force.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        No, sorry, you don’t speak for all of us.

        I tried to kill myself at 16 because I was being abused at home and at school. I would not personally welcome or relish this situation. My ideal situation is that former bullies stay away and out of my life. This to me is not a dream but an imperfect situation where there is no perfect solution. I would not be happy about it. YMMV.

      2. Temperance*

        I was not ashamed at all that I cheered when I found out that the girl who relentlessly bullied me in 6th grade has a shit job and never left our hometown. She made fun of me for being a nerd and weird, well, this weird nerd worked hard at school to GTFO of Scranton.

        1. Whippers.*

          I’m sorry but I hate comments like this.

          People who weren’t bullies also work shit jobs. It’s not a comeuppance for something someone did when they were younger.

          1. Temperance*

            I realize that having a shit job is not a penance for bullying, but honestly, after what she did to me, and how much she teased me for working hard at school and being a nerd, it feels like a deserved comeuppance. I know it’s not PC or kind of me to enjoy her suffering, but she made me afraid to go to school and hate school. I used to get sick to my stomach every morning and would be unable to sleep at night because of her.

            So yeah, I realize it probably makes me not super kind to enjoy the fact that her life isn’t grand, but meh. She should have considered how I felt when she was snapping my bra, walking on the backs of my shoes, and following me around screaming.

            1. Another person*

              I get it, my bully was much the same. She and her minions regularly tormented me for being a nerd and getting good grades; I had to go home with stomach pains some days. The school’s response to the time she got caught throwing gum in my hair during the one class we had together was to make us share a locker the following year. It didn’t get better, but I got out.

              Five years after high school, I was out of college, all dressed up from my professional job, grabbing a quick bite at the Taco Bell by the mall, and guess who had to take my order? She looked me up and down frantically looking for something to say, and settled on my empty ring finger, saying with a sneer, “You aren’t married yet?”

              I responded simply by placing my order of chicken soft tacos and a Dr Pepper.

              Maybe it is kind of mean, but I think it’s okay to gloat a little when your bully specifically targets you for being a high achiever.

            2. Lilo*

              My husband was bullied in high school for the exact things that got him out of his boondocks town, so I totally understand. The uncool science fair and math competitons that he got bullied for got him admittance and scholarships to college.

              1. Temperance*

                Yep. We didn’t have those (really rural area), but I was always reading and answering questions in class, which was apparently sooooo uncool.

          2. Anonymous Educator*

            I don’t think Temperance is saying “If you work a shit job, you deserve it.” I read the comment as more “There is a sense of satisfaction in sometimes seeing someone suffer who made me suffer and to knowing that I worked hard and my hard worked paid off, even if hard work does not always pay off.”

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              At least in my experience, when someone is gleeful about something bad happening to someone else (i.e. a low-paying job or getting fat or ending up in rehab, to pick a few examples from elsewhere in this thread), it’s because they place an inherent moral judgment on all people who have that experience or are in that class. After all, you’re only happy because they’re being *punished* right? It’s inconsistent to say on the one hand, “f-that a-hole, I’m happy she works at McDonald’s like she deserves” and on the other hand “there’s nothing wrong with working at McDonald’s – they’re just hardworking people trying to make a living like the rest of us.”

              1. MegaMoose, Esq*

                I think the second half of my first sentence wasn’t quite what I meant to say. Ah well. I struggled with saying anything at all because this comment section is making me deeply depressed for a number of reasons. I’m gonna go reread the post on pending litigation and eat a cookie and hope that my present weight and employment issues aren’t punishment for any past or future transgressions.

                1. Purest Green*

                  Hah! I appreciate the humor here. FWIW I get what you’re saying and I agree… but I also understand the satisfaction of knowing that someone who wronged you isn’t doing conventionally well in life. There’s a smugness to that for sure.

              2. paul*

                I don’t agree with that statement. There’s plenty of things that we recognize are deeply unpleasant without being inherently karmic punishments for everyone going through them.

                I’m not always a good person, and if I see that someone that caused me a lot of misery is experiencing some themselves, I might experience schadenfreude. That doesn’t imply in any fashion that I think experiencing bad things is inherently a moral judgement against people that experience them.

                I know dying in a car wreck probably sucks; I was mildly glad when a former bully of mine did. That doesn’t mean I think that everyone killed by a distracted or drunk driver deserved it.

              3. Temperance*

                I really disagree. I grew up in the social class where it was pretty much expected that I would end up in a McJob or at a factory. Those jobs aren’t fun, or stimulating, and I think it’s silly to pretend otherwise.

                I take some enjoyment out of the fact that Missy, who harangued me on a near-daily basis when we were kids for being smart and working hard at school, chose not to do those things and is now working a crappy job at a local pizza place where we grew up. Not because I think being poor or in a minimum wage job are the worst things in the world, but because I worked hard to avoid a boring, unpleasant job with low pay and was bullied for doing just that.

                1. Gadfly*

                  However, having my life or major portions of it or significant factors in it wished on others as a punishment for their sins seems a lot like you are cheering on those who have hurt me and are willing to overlook the harm done me, and justify the abuse done to me, so that those who hurt you get hurt.

                  It is like cheering on prison rape.

                2. Temperance*

                  I’m truly sorry if my comments on this have caused you any pain, but I do take issue with you comparing me taking joy in Missy having a McJob with me taking joy in Missy getting raped.

                3. Annonymouse*

                  all they’re saying is it feels good to be successful when your bully is not especially when you were bullied about things that helped build your success.

              4. tigerStripes*

                There’s nothing wrong with working at McDonald’s except that it’s hard work, and the hours are usually fairly irregular, and some of the customers treat people who work there badly, and the pay is terrible.

        2. Lora*

          If the mine fire swallows up Scranton, I won’t cry.

          [From PA, left for grad school and never looked back. I derive great joy from this fact alone. Whatever else happens, I NEVER have to live in Pennsyltucky again, EVER.]

          1. Temperance*

            I sometimes fantasize a big sinkhole sucking in everyone except for my sister and her kids. I’m only mildly ashamed. I live outside of Philly now, and it’s so much better of an area.

            1. Relly*

              I’m in the Pittsburgh burbs, and I’m ok with a big sinkhole devouring most of the T-region if we keep our respective sisters and their families out of the wreckage.

          2. Just Another Techie*

            I often fantasize about the river that runs through the town I grew up in catching on fire again, and devouring the whole town. And hey, with the expected rollbacks to EPA regulations it might actually happen!

      3. AMG*

        I’m okay with it. FWIW, Another Alison. Karma is exactly what I think is going on here. And the Nerd part isn’t exactly a new saying–for a a reason.

        1. Bookworm*

          Just guessing here, but maybe George is suggesting the phase kind of implies that ‘bosses’ were nerds while those on the lower rungs of the ladder must have been bullies. Or at least not nerds.

          When in fact, that’s probably demonstrably untrue. Plenty of nerdy people who aren’t bosses for whatever reason and visa-versa.

          1. Whippers.*

            100%
            I’m probably being over sensitive but I feel like comments about nerds coming into the kingdom of god and bullies failing to make anything of themselves are just so….high school ironically enough.

            Life is not that simple. People’s trajectory’s are not that straightforward. And many bullies were bullies in High school and continue to be bullies through their working life; and are often very successful because of that.

            In fact, the bullies who don’t make anything of themselves were probably very damaged themselves. And idon’tthink that’s anything to be celebrated

            1. sb*

              Eh, a lot of people have shitty home lives and don’t turn into certifiable bullies. That’s still on the bully. I get what y’all are saying about the classism, but I think you can simultaneously hold the idea in your head that there’s nothing wrong with working at McDonald’s and that the bully who made your life hell and thought they were the best at everything is at a job they probably hate. (It’s about the person, not the job. It’s fine to work at a low-paying job! Few people I know were ever actually happy with those jobs while they did them.)

              1. Kj*

                Yep. I was bullied in middle school by a girl who bragged about what high school she was going to, how cool it was, how she was going to be a sportsball star there and how I was a nerd who was boring. I was very pleased when I heard through the grapevine that she lasted less than a semester at that school.

            3. Carolyn*

              “In fact, the bullies who don’t make anything of themselves were probably very damaged themselves. And idon’tthink that’s anything to be celebrated”

              This. This right here.

            4. TL -*

              Yup. I also hate the identifying of “nerd” to mean “persecuted person because I’m really smart [and that intelligence lets me appreciate things you can’t possibly understand.]” It is quite possible that the bullied girl was not nerdy. At all. And being a nerd does not automatically mean you were bullied (many of my friends self-identify as nerds; the only one who was bullied does not.)

              Bullying kids often (but not always) target kids who are different. Sometimes that difference is the kid who is doing quite well academically. Sometimes it’s the kid who is visibly poor or who eats the “weird” food or who obviously doesn’t like what the bully likes, for whatever reason. Sometimes it’s just because they brought up one different thing and got a reaction that made them feel better, so they look for other things. Being a nerd, however you define it, does not automatically set you up for success or bullying.

              Also, you should be kind to people because they have intrinsic value as a human being, not because they might sign your paycheck one day.

          2. nonegiven*

            Plenty of nerdy people have been picked on just for being nerdy.

            Guess what, you don’t have to be the boss nerd to be asked to conduct a technical interview with an applicant to evaluate strengths and weaknesses in subjects mentioned in a resume and send a report to the boss.

    3. Alex the Alchemist*

      I guess, but I wish more people would understand “be nice to nerds because they’re human beings too and you should just generally not be jerks to people”

      1. LizM*

        This. I get this sentiment, but at the same time… it doesn’t seem that different from OP apologizing so he’ll get the job.

  28. AnonForThisOne*

    As someone who was bullied growing up, I enjoyed reading this letter. Move on, OP, move on.

  29. Ramona Flowers*

    OP, I was bullied at school. I think everyone deserves a second chance but you do need to know that people can be very seriously traumatised by things that happen when they are 17. If you apologise, it needs to be for the sake of putting it right, not to sort out your career chances. Apologising for you is not the right thing to do.

  30. Stellaaaaa*

    I wasn’t even bullied in high school but I still would steer my boss away from any former classmates if I had that kind of input and if we had other equally good candidates. People don’t have to be actively bullying you to give you the sense that they’re deliberately excluding you for being working class and coming from a “bad” family. I’m not undoing years of therapy and self-improvement just to give Jimmy X a chance. It’s not about holding a grudge, because I don’t. It’s about not wanting to go back down that road. The company’s star employee might not want to see a daily reminder of a bad time in her life and she’s in a position to have some control over that.

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      Exactly. The flip side of “forgive and forget” can often be “lesson learned” and “when you close a door on the past, make sure you Gorilla Glue, nail and barricade that sucker SHUT.”
      (I may have made that last bit up.)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I have done this as an adult with people who were bullies and MAJOR gossips at previous jobs. I don’t even have to think twice about it, I just spill the beans.

    3. Chaordic One*

      When you are hiring for any position there are so many other things to consider. The OP might really not be the best qualified (as well as probably not a good fit).

    4. anon for this one*

      so much this. found out my ex husband’s mistress who is no longer with him had applied for a position at my company. it didn’t go further but i have no desire to work with her. not out of pettiness because neither of us are no longer with him (although fwiw she still doesn’t have a problem with her being with a married man because i was a “bad wife”), but because she is part of a very bad time in my life.

    2. Jaguar*

      So, this letter got me thinking through scenarios and how I would approach them. In school, I was both bully and victim of bullying and some of both stay with me. I wouldn’t know how I would feel about working with someone that bullied me – probably not great – and I feel wretched about the people I was mean to up to particularly severe incidents of sleepless nights thinking about my lousy behaviour in the past. However, importantly, there are also people that bullied me that I carry no baggage with any more and there are people I was a jerk to that are fine with me today. The point of that being, OP (presumably) didn’t know that the person they hurt are still hurt by what OP did, but now they do. Those are different situations. If I knew the people I had harmed were still upset by it, I would try to fix that. But (and there’s selfishness and cowardice baked into this as well), if I don’t know that, I’m not sure I would: I could be vastly overstating my actions in the importance of their lives, and so an apology could be more about me than it is about them, which I’m not sure how comfortable I am with.

    3. AMG*

      That’s the nut of the issue. Maybe not what the OP wrote about, but it’s the real question she should be asking regardless.

    5. Aveline*

      Also, why is he/she apoplogizing? For the victim’s sake or their own?

      And are they willing to make amends?

    6. LBK*

      While I get what you’re saying, I don’t know that this being the thing that causes her to apologize is any worse than randomly see her name pop up on Facebook or hearing it from a mutual friend. Most people don’t spend a lot of time reminiscing about the people you’ve hurt, and they don’t maintain a list of people they’ve wronged to sporadically apologize to so that it seems more genuine and not spurred on by something that made you remember that person.

      It’s a little sketchier since there’s something concrete at stake for the OP, but I don’t know if she should be completely discouraged from making the apology; I still think it’s the right thing to do and I think it’s okay to do it because she happened to be reminded of the person in question and reflect on what she’d done as a result.

      1. AD*

        Except….that’s not really the situation here. OP wasn’t randomly reflecting on high school experiences or coming across this woman’s name by chance on Facebook. As many others have said on this page, at greater length and more eloquently, there’s some evidence from OP’s letter that she is minimizing or unaware of the impact of the bullying she did while in high school….and that this wouldn’t have been on her radar *at all* if she wasn’t losing employment opportunities because of it.
        That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t make the effort to apologize. But there’s some room for us to say “Is this apology authentic, or is it motivated by self-interest?” From the letter, I could go either way.

        1. LBK*

          My point was just that when people do apologize for things years later, it’s typically because their name came up somehow, not because they suddenly felt remorseful for it. So asking the question “Would you be thinking of apologizing now if this hadn’t happened?” is a little disingenuous, because that’s usually what makes someone offer a delayed apology – something random that brings the person back to mind. They usually aren’t on your radar at all for any reason until something makes you remember them.

          I get that there’s the quid pro quo element of it at play which makes the genuineness of the apology questionable, I’m just saying that apologizing years later because something gave her cause to remember what she’d done to the OP isn’t inherently wrong. That’s how most apologies like this happen.

      2. The Other Dawn*

        I’m not in any way saying she shouldn’t apologize. I’m just saying that this seems more like she’s doing it for the sake of being able to find a job locally, rather than because she truly feels remorseful. And if it’s just for the sake of job searching, then she probably shouldn’t. But, we don’t really know how she feels. All we know is what she wrote in the letter, which appears to me that it really wasn’t on her radar at all until now.

        1. AD*

          Exactly. The only reference to this in OP’s letter is “Should I beg for forgiveness?”

          Is that coming from a desire to give a good-faith apology and reflect on harm caused? Or is it to overcome this obstacle for future employment opportunities?

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Very much agreed. OP’s phrasing makes the apology sound transactional, not like it’s an expression of actual remorse (or even shows an understanding of what OP is apologizing for).

          So I think TOD’s question is a really superb way for OP to clarify their own intentions/emotions around the situation. Perhaps OP should ask, “If I saw her in a grocery store instead of in this context, would I have felt moved to apologize?”

      3. Sualah*

        Most people don’t spend a lot of time reminiscing about the people you’ve hurt, and they don’t maintain a list of people they’ve wronged to sporadically apologize to so that it seems more genuine and not spurred on by something that made you remember that person.

        Yes, so much this.

    7. Roscoe*

      Well, they likely didn’t know that they are still mad about it 10 years later. As many have pointed out, a lot of bullies don’t even remember what they did, although it may be something completely scarring for the victim. Its not exactly fair to condemn them for that.

        1. Roscoe*

          I’m not saying it makes them free from it. But I think the tone of the questions “would you even apologize if it wasn’t for the job” is kind of implying its not sincere, which we don’t know. So my point was if they didn’t know that someone is still pissed about something 10 years later, why would they think to apologize

          1. Oryx*

            So let’s reframe it slightly and take the job out of it:

            Let’s say OP is out with Mutual Classmate. The run into the Rock Star. Maybe she gives OP the cold shoulder. Maybe she immediately leaves the restaurant or store they are all in. Mutual Classmate later says, “Rock Star says you bullied her in high-school.”

            No job on the line, not working in the same industry, nothing like that. Chances are OP won’t ever see Rock Star ever again.

            Does the OP reach out and apologize?

  32. Elemeno P.*

    I try not to hold grudges, but I haven’t forgotten the few people who truly, deeply hurt me in life, whether or not they apologized. I don’t dwell on them much, but if I did find out they’d applied to my company and I had the ability, I would definitely block them, too. Given this woman’s reaction, it must have been pretty bad. I don’t think this company is going to have you unless she leaves.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I definitely would not assume that! They know that they can’t hire her as long as one of their current star employees is there, but it doesn’t sound like a situation where they’d put her on a permanent “no” list.

  33. De Minimis*

    I wasn’t a bully, but I think it’s a good practice to work someplace other than where you grew up/went to school for this type of reason. You don’t want stuff from high school [or even earlier] to haunt you years later.

    1. paul*

      Agreed. I’m very glad I’m in a different state than where I grew up, partly for this reason.

    2. PlainJane*

      Excellent point–and one I’m reminded of every time I go back to my hometown to visit friends from high school. I’m so happy I can leave the drama (which is still going on!) behind.

  34. Dolphn Girl*

    I agree with the above replies that the LW does not have a clue. That being mean at 17 should not come back to her after she has “worked so hard”. Get used to it. Life is not fair and if it was, your schoolmate would not feel the need to blackball you at her company. Actions have consequences and yours are coming a little later than you ever expected. The fact that you think it is so trivial makes me believe you have not changed at all and any apology from you is and will appear to be fake.

  35. Dust Bunny*

    This is what a lot of bullies don’t understand: What to them was some immature behavior for a couple of years in middle or high school to me was ostracism from a school I had to attend every day, by people I could not avoid until I graduated, and a long-term effect on my self-esteem. It’s a blip in time to you but a permanent change in who I am. Sure, there’s therapy–I’m sure it’s totally fair that I should pay to repair the damage that you inflicted.

    So pardon me if I don’t have any tears to shed for the fact that you might have to settle for less than your dream niche job.

    1. Aveline*

      Yes. OP doesn’t convey sympathy for the trauma he or she may have caused.

      It’s all about his or her job prospects.

      So either they aren’t sincere in feeling bad or they aren’t good at conveying it.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Thank you. I was struggling to find words for my thoughts but this is it perfectly.

        And if I ever get the chance to prevent those that bullied me when I was in high school and junior high from working with me, you bet I would! I have no desire to see or have contact with any of them again.

    2. Charlie*

      This is pretty much what the Not Mad Scientist said above, and I agree with both of you. Sometimes, being 17, or not realizing how vicious a comment was, or lashing out because your parents were getting a divorce, or whatever….just doesn’t change that you did what you did and you can’t undo it.

      And yeah, as someone who got bullied a lot, not getting one’s dream niche job at a given company seems like a pretty small bill to pay.

    3. Princess Carolyn*

      I wish more children and teens could read this explanation of the damage bullying can do. A shocking number of bullies don’t even mean any real harm and really do see it as just entertainment.

      1. Charlie*

        I also think more people have pathological deficits in empathy and ethics than are captured by formal psychiatric diagnoses of personality disorders. Sociopathy is a spectrum, and there’s a lot of people who aren’t diagnosable with narcissism who nonetheless find it almost impossible to extend empathy and consideration to people outside their self-identified groups or tribes.

        1. RVA Cat*

          Plus I wonder if there are some occupations that people like A) seek out, and B) make their tendencies worse. Middle management, police work and politics come to mind.

          1. Stanton von Waldorf*

            From my personal experience, it is also extremely common in gang or criminal situations. It’s easier to harm someone else if you convince yourself first that the person to be harmed doesn’t deserve empathy.

          2. Charlie*

            I think there probably are, but I also know people in traditionally empathetic fields whose empathy is strictly limited to people they identify with.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      Re the part in bold–yes, high school (or younger) victims of bullying don’t have the option to say “Then I’m quitting McGovern HS and going to South Central.” As adults, they can do exactly that. And Rock Star is doing it–exercising adult choices she didn’t have as a trapped child.

  36. BTW*

    People change. If it was a situation like the first person who commented, I would understand that. My husband was a terror when he was a teenager but he truly is a completely different man now. I know, because I’ve known him since I was 13 and have dated him since I was 16 (I’m now 29) He was “that guy” when we first got together but he grew up and matured. People still assume he’s the same person and he’s not. Not by a long shot. He has grown into such a wonderful man that I would hate his past coming up to bite him and him losing opportunities because he was a (excuse me) little shit-head back-in-the-day.

    All the people who bullied me in elementary & high school are such different people now that it wouldn’t even phase me. I think in order to give some good advice, we might need to know exactly what the OP did to this person.

    1. Arpai*

      If you hurt a person badly enough, it doesn’t matter what you grow up to be. As someone above said, sometimes you burn bridges before you even realize you want to cross them, and that’s life.

    2. Dienna Howard*

      I think in order to give some good advice, we might need to know exactly what the OP did to this person.

      I disagree that we need to know the specifics. And while I realize that people change, I don’t get the impression that the letter writer is willing to change. S/he had no remorse or regret about what s/he did until this came to light.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Agreed, and the OP is kind of like Schrodinger’s Bully in this case. She might have changed, or she might not, and her former classmate has no way of knowing which it is until they’re already working together. Which is a pretty big risk to take – if the former classmate genuinely doesn’t know if she would be able to work with OP, she’s putting her job on the line to find out.

        We don’t have to know the specifics to trust that the OP’s former classmate is sincere when she says she doesn’t want to work with OP. It doesn’t have to be a situation where we, personally, would make the same decision, but I think it’s reasonable to assume that the former classmate has made the best decision for herself.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I love the phrase “Schrodinger’s Bully.” It’s such a perfect analogy.

      2. Anna*

        As has been said in other comments, the person who did the bullying often doesn’t understand the impact of their actions. I’m willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt in that this situation brought their past behavior into focus for them. We don’t always have the luxury of realizing our transgressions on our own. Sometimes someone has to actually tell us we were awful.

        I did experience some bullying in elementary school. I remember it and it did impact me; however, I’m going to assume that most people outgrow that kind of shitty power play behavior because I haven’t really seen much to suggest otherwise.

    3. LawBee*

      “I think in order to give some good advice, we might need to know exactly what the OP did to this person.”

      We don’t. We know it was bad enough that approx ten years later, she’s still angry about it. That tells us all we need to know – it was that bad FOR HER. We don’t need to decide how angry she has a right to be. That’s her decision.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Thank you. It never fails to infuriate when people second-guess others’ authentic and deeply felt emotions and experiences.

        2. Jessica*

          I also think that it bears distinguishing the point that it doesn’t matter if the bullying arbitrarily met some universal metric of “bad”. What matters is that the classmate remembered the OP in such a profoundly negative way that it’s affecting OP’s professional reputation 10 years later. If there’s a moral to this story, it’s that what you did yesterday can affect you well into the future. There are tons of kids who thought that this joint, or that petty vandalism, or that shoplifting charge, was nbd coming-of-age crap, only to find that it means they don’t get into the Air Force, or can’t work in finance because they have a record for theft, or lost their scholarship and now can’t afford to finish college, or whatever. Yep, that happens. That’s a thing. OP is lucky that this only handicaps them in this one city–they could move and cultivate their own professional reputation so that if this comes up again, it might not have this result. That’s about all OP can do at this stage.

          1. Stanton von Waldorf*

            TLDR – The toes you step on today may be connected to the ass you are kissing tomorrow.

            1. sam*

              slightly more fun story – to lighten the mood a bit. I dated a guy my freshman year of college for a few months (he was a sophmore). No bullying involved. But he pretty much ghosted on me after a few months. Turned out that in addition to disappearing from my life, he actually transferred schools (!).

              Do you know how I found this out?

              Because my second year of law school, in a completely different city, I walked into the first year orientation, where I was serving as an orientation counselor, and take a wild guess as to who is a member of the first year class!? Yep, my ghost-ex. He and I both look at each other and he just gets this…ohhhh shit look on his face. Also, whereas in college, he was the wise sophomore to my naive freshman, now I was the “knows everyone at the school and can make his life miserable second-year” :)

              We ended up becoming decent friends after that, and still keep in touch, but he specifically uses this story as his “don’t be an asshole to people, because you REALLY never know when you’re going to run into them again” lesson.

    4. Temperance*

      Eh, I don’t see the need to really give your past bully the benefit of the doubt. I think that your husband should reap the consequences of his actions if his past victims aren’t comfortable with him. I don’t think he should be punished forever by outside parties, but it’s a reasonable reaction from a person who was bullied not to want to hang out or work with the person who terrorized them.

      It’s very likely that OP’s view of her actions is not the same view that her victim has. That’s just how this type of thing works. Most people who do monstrous things don’t see themselves as monstrous, but that they were just joking around or whatever.

      1. Recovering Adjunct*

        I think this also highlights the truth about how a job is not a prize to be won. Healthy companies think a lot about how their people will work together as a team.

    5. Charlie*

      And here’s the thing: your husband has worked to improve himself, and that’s really great. I’m not being sarcastic, it’s the highest and best purpose one can apply themselves to.

      But….

      It’s a nice redemptive arc, but it doesn’t erase anything. There are people he hurt, I’d bet, who are still hurt. He did what he did, and there are still consequences for what you do, even if you do differently after the fact. People improve, but they’re still who they always were.

    6. Anne (with an "e")*

      I get the impression that the OP doesn’t remember what s/he did to the OP. The OP seems to believe he/she must have said something when s/he was seventeen. Either that, or the OP is being purposely vague.

    7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Has your husband apologized to all of the people he terrorized or mistreated when he was in “little shithead” mode?

    8. Blue eagle*

      Totally disagree. We do not have the “right” to judge the bullied person’s response to the bully. Regardless of whether you or I think she overreacted is irrelevant. Looking at the situation “objectively” doesn’t matter – all that matters is that the “rock star” does not want the bully to be working there. The “rock star” moved on, it’s time for the bully to move on.

  37. Princess Carolyn*

    I can think of one person from high school that I just absolutely would not work with under any circumstances. Fortunately, her awfulness continued well into college and she’s burned enough bridges that I’m not too worried about it coming up.

  38. HisGirlFriday*

    I am solidly on the side of, ‘Don’t bother sending anything.’

    You have no idea if your former classmate wants to hear from you, and TBH, no matter how you frame this, sending an apology to her WORK e-mail screams, ‘I know you’re the reason I got blacklisted and I’m really sorry but I was 17 and dumb and didn’t mean it and look how hard I worked and all the training I got.

    I don’t mean to be harsh, OP, you may genuinely have changed, but your letter to me reads as really minimizing: ‘I’ll be honest — I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl.’

    You can’t even name something you did, just ‘I probably was pretty awful,’ yet whatever you did has resonated with her so deeply that 10 +/- years later, she still doesn’t want to be in the same room with you, let alone work with you.

    You also wrote, ‘I looked my former classmate up, and her resume really is incredible. She graduated from college early and has awards people who’ve worked in our industry twice as long haven’t won. Her public-facing work is top-notch. I’m guessing she’s the kind of employee a manager wants to keep around.’

    If her resume is as incredible as you say it is, then yeah, management is going to do whatever they can (within reason) to keep her happy, and not hiring someone is a pretty easy thing to do.

    I don’t see any way that you send that e-mail that it ends well for you, but I see a lot of ways you send that e-mail and things get worse.

    I think you have to write this company off.

    But please, don’t contact her. I was bullied pretty severely in middle and high school, and I have less than zero desire to see those people now, or talk to them, or hear from them. I am very successful now at what I do, and I have (no bragging) the kind of connections people want to leverage. I’m not interested in using my reputation to help someone who made my life miserable, no matter how much they say they’ve changed.

    1. a girl has no name*

      In the OP’s defense, she might know exactly what she did to bully her but didn’t want to include that in the letter either to be brief or because she is embarrassed. So I don’t know if we can say that she is minimizing what she did.

      I do agree with you that she needs to write the company off. I don’t blame the former classmate. I didn’t really even have many bad experiences with former classmates, but who wants a constant reminder of high school? High school was rough for a lot of people, and it is really nice to be able to move on and become the adult you want to be and leave it behind.

      1. HisGirlFriday*

        I think we can. The OP could have written, ‘I was legitimately awful to her in high school, and I know it,’ but what she did write was, ‘I probably was pretty awful.’

        The OP could have owned her actions without specifics, but didn’t. I think calling it minimizing is reasonable.

  39. LBK*

    Oof. You’re really impressionable when you’re a teenager. Part of the time I spent in therapy in my 20s was dedicated to processing things that happened in high school; it can be a lot worse than simply holding a grudge. It’s not so much that I would still hold it against them, because I’d hope they had grown up to be better people. It would just be a constant reminder of painful memories that I would definitely not want to be reliving at work.

    I think at most, you say that hearing her name come up again made you recall all of the terrible things you’d done to her, and you wanted to take the opportunity to apologize. And then you say nothing else, and you thank your lucky stars if she decides to be magnanimous and put in a good word for you. But I really think you need to consider this a lost cause.

    Yeah, it sucks that something you did when you were 17 could impact your life forever – but consider that something that happened to her when she was 17 (whatever you did to her) could also be impacting her life forever.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Yeah, it sucks that something you did when you were 17 could impact your life forever – but consider that something that happened to her when she was 17 (whatever you did to her) could also be impacting her life forever.

      Yes.

      1. SenatorMeathooks*

        You’re right! It clearly is affecting her years later. I don’t know how she has the energy for it.

    2. Manders*

      This comment is great. High school may only be 4 years long, but it’s a crucial stage of development and traumatic things that happen during those years can have an outsized impact in shaping someone’s life.

      It’s also the last stage in most people’s lives in which they cannot avoid a bully by switching classes or changing where they live. It’s a time in your life when you’re mature enough to know you need to get away from a bad situation, but not yet old enough to switch classes or move on your own. So I see why the bullied employee in this situation would be especially reluctant to end up in another situation where the bully’s constantly around and avoiding them would be difficult.

      1. LBK*

        Yeah, this is a great point – once you’re out in your adult life, you have more agency to make the decisions you need to make to get out of a bad situation. You get to choose your circumstances much more than you do when you’re young.

    3. Purest Green*

      Your last sentence is something I hadn’t thought about, and it’s a really great point. As someone who was not straight up bullied, I was having a hard time truly understanding the comments today and thinking, OK, but when does OP stop paying for what (s)he did at 17?

      But, yeah, you put that into perspective.

      1. BioBot*

        They stop paying for it when they apply to a company where their victim doesn’t work. Is that some sort of burden or something? They’re not owed a job by the current company.

        1. SenatorMeathooks*

          Based on the OP’s side of the story in other comments​, I can see where Purest Green is coming from.

          1. Annonymouse*

            OP will have paid for it when they realise how terrible they treated the other person and how badly they hurt them and want to apologise because it’s the right thing for them not because they want something from them or absolution.

            From their comments it seems as though OP has a long way to go.

        2. Nanobot*

          Pretty sure PG was not actually making the “when does it end argument,” but agreeing with LBK and saying his statements help pit things in perspective.

  40. Aveline*

    I think the OP has a larger issue here that’s being missed. If the HS victim of OPs bullying is such a rock star in such a small market, his chances of having this career are likely tanked.

    I have a friend (we will call her Amy) who was assaulted by a guy we will call Fergus in college. Amy is a rockstar in an industry where there are only about 40-50 people in a town of a million. Fergus will never get a job in that industry in Amy’s town. Why? Because even competitors talk about the potential new hires and prospects over cocktails at the bar or lunch at the professional networking group.

    The likelihood of OP getting a job at a competitor are not good. Even if he “squeeked in,” I’m sure this will come up at some point.

    Fair or not, OP needs to reconsider his career path or his residence. Io

    1. Lora*

      This. I am also in an industry and in an area where everyone knows everyone else and we all do informal background checks over coffee/beer when we’re thinking of hiring someone?

      I remember the girl who used to slam my head into my locker until I bled on a daily basis, and it’s been 30 years. I remember the girl across the street who used to punch me and hit me with sticks after school, before my mom got home, and rubbed my swimsuit in poison ivy one summer. I remember the kid up the street who used to put rocks inside of snowballs and soak them with water to make ice balls and bury me up to my waist in snow and then throw the rock/ice-balls at me and when his mother would come out to check on us, he would chirp, “we’re having a snowball fight!”

      I moved far far far away from those people for very good reasons. I don’t care if they grew up and found Jesus, I want nothing to do with any of them. I don’t care if they’re sorry or whatever. Stay the heck away from me.

      Even as an adult: there have been instances where I was mistreated by workplace bullies – and it gives me great joy that they have indeed been blacklisted from the industry (I wasn’t the only person who they mistreated, obviously).

    2. MuseumChick*

      This is a really good point. I’m in a pretty small field and word travels very fast about people. There is one person in my field who I know desperately wants a job at a specific museum but it will never happen. Word about her reputation reached the people there long ago.

      OP, this industry might be a wash for you. If she has a stellar reputation, knows people in this industry really well, word about you will spread. I can see you not only being blacklisted from the company she works for but also others in the industry in a, when they see your resume they will think: “I heard Jane treated to quite Teapots Inc if this Sarah Smith got hired at her company. I want to maintain a good relationship with Jane and Teapots Inc. Better not take a chance.” kind of way.

  41. detached anon*

    Alison, would you please consider to put up an open-thread page where we can comment on our work & personal bullying stories? I think there are a lot of them & it could be a helpful resource as an outlet & for reforming bullies to understand their impact. Also I’d like anyone who has bullied to give their perspective.

    In particular it would help these comments not to get bogged down with stories so we can focus on the OP, who seems to genuinely want advice.

    2. Temperance*

      I don’t know that your suggestion would be really related to the mission of the site, and there are plenty of other spaces on the web for that. The OP wants advice, which we’re giving to her.

    3. detached anon*

      Yes, probably it is against the mission of AAM.
      I’ll look up outside sites & I retract the suggestion. :)

    4. Madame X*

      You could wait until Friday/Saturday this week when Alison puts up the Open Thread post.

  42. Lurking, mostly*

    OP, I won’t pile on here. I think the best option for you is to either give up on this career, or, as you said, pursue it in another location. Revisit this in a few years, and if you wish, send her a sincere apology, with nothing to gain for yourself. Or, just move on. You won’t get this job you desire, that’s clear.

  43. SheLooksFamiliar*

    I once interviewed for a job with a gentleman who, after the initial small talk, sighed and said, ‘You look exactly like my ex-wife.’ Things went downhill from there, even though he said my experience was exactly what he was looking for, etc. and so on. I didn’t think I’d hear back from him, and I didn’t.

    OP, some personal things are just too hard to ignore in the workplace. We’re only human, and our life experiences walk into the office with us whether or not we know it. I imagine this rock star employee may be a little surprised herself by the vivid emotions and memories your name evoked, and simply can’t leave those memories – and her feelings you created at the time – outside the office.

    I’m not sure from your letter if you are sorry for what happened because it’s biting you in the butt now, or because you’re really sorry for what you did. You said you ‘probably’ were awful, which doesn’t sound like a true acknowledgment of your bullying behavior as a teenager. 17 year olds know how to treat people decently, right? Before you do anything, I think you need to come to grips with your behavior, and your responsibility for what your actions did to someone.

    I think AAM is right. IF you choose to contact her, do it because you can offer a sincere apology for your past behavior. Do not try to resurrect your candidacy with this company, just do the right thing. If you can’t apologize, drop the idea of contacting her; your outreach will look like a ploy, which only makes things worse.

  44. TootsNYC*

    I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17.

    ooh, OP, I don’t think you get it. And for your own sake, I hope you reflect on this.

    Your mistreatment of her was bad enough that she was willing to pay a cost at her job by openly opposing your candidacy. It’s not an risk-free thing to do—requesting that someone be blackballed. The risk would be low if she’d said, “Hmmm, I knew him in high school; he wasn’t very reliable,” and that might carry enough weight. But that’s not the report–the report is that she said, “It’s him or me.”

    Even if they love her–that’s a risky thing for her to have done. It makes her look unflexible and unforgiving, and maybe even unprofessional. Like, “who else is she going to take a dislike to, and think she gets to call the shots?” You get maybe ONE card like that, and it can still backfire. But she played it.

    And I worry that your “I don’t deserve” is an indicator that you aren’t really seeing the power of what you did, that the effects of it lasted this long.

    I did have one of my tormenters approach me at a class reunion and apologize, spontaneously, for “how we treated you.” It was nice to hear, though awkward in the moment.

    1. HisGirlFriday*

      ‘Even if they love her–that’s a risky thing for her to have done. It makes her look unflexible and unforgiving, and maybe even unprofessional. Like, “who else is she going to take a dislike to, and think she gets to call the shots?” You get maybe ONE card like that, and it can still backfire. But she played it.’

      ^^^^^THIS is a really good point. The ‘her or me’ card is the nuclear option. It’s a card you get to play one time at a job, and even then, it’s not guaranteed. It’s also unusual for someone in her late 20s to have enough clout to play that card effectively, which means she really is a super-star and her company really wants to keep her and keep her happy.

      I second the other posters who’ve said you definitely have to look outside your town for your chance to break into this industry.

      Find another job, elsewhere, and then if you happen to meet her at networking events, MAYBE you can try to make amends.

    2. Charlie*

      Oh, man, I didn’t even think through this angle, but you’re absolutely right. That’s the big red button, hidden under glass, and both your heart and your brain need to turn the key at the same time to activate it. OP, if you need to understand how bad this person feels about whatever it is you couldn’t even be bothered to remember, this is your yardstick.

    3. LBK*

      Hmm…I don’t know if it’s really all that dramatic, honestly. When you’re the rockstar you do kind of get to call the shots. And we also don’t know that it was levied as an ultimatum like that. It could just as easily have been “I have a personal history with Jane that would make me really uncomfortable working with her,” and that was enough to dissuade the company from pursuing the OP since she’s got so much pull.

      2. AMG*

        I think the point that she felt the need to expend political capital on it still applies though.

        1. TL -*

          Maybe? People’s memories of high school are often colored by all the emotions, hormones, ect… of high school. Which doesn’t mean that bullying doesn’t happen or it’s not that awful (see many stories here), but you can have a knee-jerk reaction to a high school peer that you would never have to someone you only knew as an adult, even if they engaged in similar behavior.
          Like – if someone poured a slushie on me as an adult, I feel like I would just be confused and concerned and probably (eventually) very amused, regardless of intention. My entire reaction would come down to an incredulous “who does that?” and then, if it was intentional, reporting to the proper authories. I’d be mad, but eventually it would be one of those great party stories. But in high school, I would probably be embarrassed and humiliated and crying and it would have a much greater effect, emotionally.

      3. Charlie*

        I still feel like pulling the “if you hire her, I’m quitting” card entails burning some political capital. Maybe she’s got that to spare, but that’s pretty heavy.

        1. LBK*

          Eh. High performers having a say in hiring isn’t particularly unusual to begin with (I actually participate in the interview process so I have a say in every hire, not just people I know). I really don’t think it would cost her much, if anything. And again, I think people are imagining it as if she stormed into her manager’s office and screamed “The day Jane steps foot in this office is the day I quit!” I suspect the actual conversation was a lot more demure and professional that people are making it sound.

          Maybe if the OP were applying for another department she’d have to cash in some capital with the manager of that team since she wouldn’t really have a standing to voice her opinion there, or if the OP also came with a particularly stellar reputation and recommendation behind her. But a person you have zero investment in being kiboshed by your star employee? Totally normal and just part of respecting the opinion of a trusted worker, and frankly respecting input from any of your employees about a potential hire is pretty normal, smart business practice (unless it’s the opinion of someone who doesn’t have such a great standing).

            1. TL -*

              Yup, I’m not high-level but if someone applied that I sincerely couldn’t work with, they wouldn’t be hired and I don’t think I would be burning capital – my opinion is just trusted.

          2. Charlie*

            That’s fair. I was going off OP’s characterization of “she threatened to resign when it looked like I was about to be offered a job,” but she also got that second or thirdhand, and it could easily have been a lot less dramatic.

            1. LBK*

              Fair enough. Even if she did literally threaten to resign, something like “I know it might sound ridiculous but I want to be really clear how serious this is for me: I wouldn’t be able to work here anymore if Jane got hired” wouldn’t be all that dramatic to me.

              Remember that this is an astonishingly good employee; at some point, you ascend beyond stacking up political capital and just gain a permanent level of authority.

          3. Turtle Candle*

            You know, I went back and forth on this, but I think you’re right. I have a strong suspicion that if I objected majorly to a candidate, I could go to my boss and say, in a calm and straightforward way, “I have a history with X, and I’m confident that I’d be unable to work with them.” I wouldn’t have to throw a fit and go “IT’S HER OR ME!” or whatever. And while it would probably cost me some social capital… I doubt it would cost me much. Because I don’t pull these kind of things often, and I’m a known quantity and known not to otherwise be overly dramatic.

          4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            This is a good point.

            Back in my college-job food-service days, I managed to kibosh the hiring of someone who would have been in charge of me. He wasn’t someone I had a past with; I just met him while he was being shown around the place by the owner, and when she asked me my opinion after he left, I told her that something about him made me extremely uncomfortable, and I wouldn’t want to be alone in the store with him. (Totally true; it was a real “Gift of Fear” moment.)

            Her answer was “Oh, well, I don’t need a shift manager that badly. I’ll give him a pass.”

            1. LBK*

              Exactly – unless they’re dying to hire the person for some special reason, it usually doesn’t take much for a current employee’s word to be the deciding factor. You’re naturally more invested in a current employee than a prospective one, so the candidate would have to be unbelievably impressive in order to have more weight than an employee’s opinion, to a point that’s really hard to accomplish just through the short period of a hiring process.

      4. AD*

        When you’re the rockstar you do kind of get to call the shots.

        Depends on industry, rank, seniority, a host of other things we don’t know about. All “rockstars” are not created equal, and opportunities to weigh in on or make decisions about hiring vary wildly by what organization you’re in. From what it sounds like, this is a niche industry, but assuming that high-performers get to shoot down prospective hires all the time is simply not true.

        1. LBK*

          But if that’s the case it also applies to TootsNYC’s original comment. We have pretty much no information about how big of a deal it would be for the employee to make a request like this. But just based on the fact that it seems that qualified employees are rare and she has an unbelievably stellar reputation, I’d think her employer would be pretty much falling over themselves to do whatever they needed to keep her.

          1. AD*

            The point that Toots was making is that it likely took some workplace capital to make a request like that which draws a line in the sand, however it was phrased. And I think that’s a valid point.
            You’re speaking to your own experiences, but that doesn’t apply to all. And my reference was to exactly what you said: “gets to call the shots”. Um, no that’s not universal.

            1. LBK*

              I mean, they don’t literally run the department, but good managers want to keep their good employees happy, and part of that is taking their opinions into consideration when you make big decisions like hiring. That’s a pretty standard tenet of management.

      5. Easter*

        My thoughts exactly. We don’t actually know that rockstar employee said “ohmygod, I hate that person, I will QUIT before they work here” or if it was more along the lines of what you said – that she was uncomfortable working with LW and the employer took it from there.

      6. Not So NewReader*

        What I see as drama here is the assumption OP has been blacklisted. So far, OP, the only concrete evidence you have is that applying to this one particular company is not going to work out for you.

        I am not seeing anything here that indicates you can’t get work at other companies.

        I knew of a teacher who got blacklisted and he could not get a job in his county or any of the surrounding counties. Now that is some serious blacklisting.

        OP, stick with things that are facts. Two plus two does not equal five.

        My suggestion is to deliberately put a space cushion between yourself and her at all times. I am willing to bet that she will grant that you have the right to earn a living. She just does not want you in her space. So give her space.

    4. Temperance*

      Just chiming in: it may not have been an intense personal cost. I shot down someone for a committee position because I don’t like working with her (she’s rude, annoying, and flaky, and just wants this for her resume, and will make my work life suck). I was happy to honestly weigh on her candidacy because it impacts me greatly.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      None of us deserve to have Snickers bars move directly to our hips. And yet…

  45. Fronzel Neekburm*

    Hey, Op…

    I was bullied in High School. A lot of people have pointed this out, but I want to re-iterate your point that you were “probably awful” to this girl. If you can’t identify how, then you were a lot worse than you thought. You have to realize that at a time when we are all vulnerable and still forming, you chose to to take it out on someone else. You didn’t spend nights wondering “is today going to be good? Will OP make today miserable for me?” or hoping above hope, if it was some significant event, that they didn’t ruin it. Will they ruin the school play? Will they dislocate my knee so I miss out on an opportunity to do what I’ve always wanted to do? And you have to say “i was probably awful” and cast off your memories? That’s really harsh.

    However (and please read this entire thing)…

    I don’t think you should be blacklisted for this. If I were judged by everything I did at 17, my life would be pretty miserable today, too.

    You should apologize, as others have said, because it is good for your soul and because you should grow as a human. Whether you were just a bully in high school to lash out, your actions DID affect someone else. And I’ve no doubt you’ve changed, if you have the compassion to even write a letter asking for advice.

    Now, for my first job, I did end up working with a bully. (Not the one who dislocated my knee two weeks before my big moment.) I had been working at a job for a while, and while i wasn’t management my opinion was considered on a lot of decisions, and they asked me if I should hire this person. I said yes because they were otherwise qualified, and i explained behind the scenes why I was concerned. Turns out when they hired this person, they let them know that it was because of my endorsement, and I suddenly had an apology and someone who backed me up even in the smallest problem.

    Look, what you did back in high school sucked. I hope you do get to apologize, even if nothing comes of it. But I hope you do get actual forgiveness.

    1. RebeccaNoraBunch*

      This is a really compassionate comment. And I’m sorry for what happened to you in high school – no one should have to go through that.

  46. Relly*

    I have worked hard in therapy to understand that my bullies weren’t monsters, that they were just broken people lashing out for reasons of their own.

    I don’t hate them any more.

    I also don’t want to have to see them ever again. If I could bundle them up and move them to another country, to have fabulous lives there and never see me again, I’d do it.

    There’s a reason I don’t live where I grew up.

    2. Epiphyta*

      *fistbump of solidarity*

      One of the Mean Girls from my high school just e-mailed me with a chirpy note about the upcoming reunion; I haven’t attended one in 35 years, and live on the other side of the continent from where I grew up. There are three people I’m close to from those years, and guess what? They don’t live there, either!

      Electronic round file, with a filter to send anything else straight there.

    3. J.B.*

      I was bullied by a few girls. One had pretty horrible stuff happening in her life and the ringleader of the others is by all accounts a decent person now. I have no desire to hang out with them again. I bullied and hit kids where I had the power over them, and am dealing with verbal abuse from my child towards others now (when she gets very hurt and lashes out.)

      It is so, so difficult and so hard to figure everything out. There’s a reason Lord of the Flies was written, you know? I think that kids really aren’t able to behave well without guidance. And of course there’s no handbook for the adults to use.

      1. cbackson*

        Yeah, bullying is a toxic stew of so many things – bullies are very often themselves victims of bullying (at home or at school); the social dynamics of the tween and teen years are also incredibly complicated (ever-shifting in-groups and out-groups, a strong tendency to sort of herdlike behaviors) and friendships are super-intense as young people begin to pull away from their parents. I was badly bullied in late elementary and middle school; I developed an eating disorder as a result and was in treatment for years.

        I wouldn’t have any problem interacting with those who bullied me now – I went to a lot of therapy, so it’s behind me, and in retrospect I can see that the girl who was the worst of my tormentors was subject to incredibly cruel treatment (both physically and emotionally) by her parents. But not everyone is able to move past it; some people bears those physical and emotional scars for life. And some people are largely past it, but wouldn’t want a constant reminder of those bad experiences. Ultimately, you have to respect what the victim wants, so long as it’s in the range of normal, reasonable reactions, and not wanting to work with someone who bullied you is within that range.

        Frankly, I feel really sad now for the girl who bullied me. At least I could go home to parents who loved me and when middle school ended, I started over elsewhere. Yes, years of anorexia affected me in many ways (including health problems that have lingered to this day), but I don’t know how you ever heal from having parents like hers.

    4. LBK*

      Yeah, one thing I really came to believe in the process of going through therapy is that pretty much every one of someone’s behaviors is explainable, which does give me empathy for people who do bad things. But that doesn’t mean I want to be around them.

    5. Emma*

      The conventional view is that bullies are “maladapted,” troubled people, lashing out because they had been abused or harassed themselves or at least had dysfunctional home lives.

      But researchers have found that bullies are the least likely to be depressed, have the highest self-esteem and the greatest social status.

      There is plenty of research on the topic. Google Tony Volk from Brock university, the Vancouver study, the Norwegian bully study, Jennifer Wong’s work just to mention some.

  47. LawBee*

    We live in a time when children are killing themselves over bullying. It is serious, and I applaud this woman for refusing to work with you.

    You say you were awful, but then downplay it as “something I said when I was 17” which makes me think that you just don’t get it.

    1. Gadfly*

      We always have lived in such times, we’re just better at recognizing it as a factor now.

  48. Princess Carolyn*

    OP, I think you should really consider relocating if you’re serious about breaking into this niche field. Obviously I don’t know all the details about your personal life that might make that particularly easy or difficult, but give it some thought. You could get some valuable experience in another market while you wait to see if your apology can eventually smooth things over with this classmate.

  49. Jessesgirl72*

    OP, in order to sound sincere, you need to really be sincere.

    I can understand your disappointment, but the “It’s not fair!” part of your letter (not the mention the ” I probably was pretty awful to this girl.”) makes me wonder about the depth of your remorse. But maybe that is just the form factor- written is hard.

    However, because of that, I also am doubtful you’ll do much better with your former bully target.

    Sometimes things just don’t work out how we want. I’d suggest looking for work in a different location.

    1. Queen of the File*

      I wonder how the OP’s conversation with the acquaintance went, rather than what we’re reading in the letter (which reads a bit dismissively but is also supposed to be focused on the OP and her work situation so I can see how that might happen).

      If the coffee conversation was along the lines of “can you even believe that person, blacklisting me, this is so crappy for me,” rather than, “I had no idea I said something so terrible to a person that they won’t work with me this many years later, I feel terrible” then the apology is not ready for delivery yet.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Bingo.

        Adding: I have been a lot happier since I stopped looking for life to be fair. Life is about the fairness we GIVE, not the fairness we GET.

  50. Hermione*

    People have already commented about the minimizing language in this letter, so I won’t, OP. I’ll believe you at your word when you say that you’re a different person than you were at 17 – many of us are.

    I hope you do decide to attempt to apologize to this woman, only for the reason that she deserves an apology. I also hope that you decide to attempt to apologize to others you hurt back then, as well, despite the fact that they may not have any power over you whatsoever in the way this woman does. Be specific with the ways you hurt them, and apologize without reservation. Make amends where possible, attempt to offer it to those who deserve it, and then move forward with the conviction of being kind first.

    And please don’t apply to this place for a number of years after your apology (or attempt, as it may be). There are other ways of forging your career – go find them.

  51. Heatherb*

    In high school I had several people that were bullies to me. 20+ years later one girl reached out via Facebook to apologize and seemed very genuine. Granted this wasn’t a situation of working with each other but I appreciated that she would make the effort. People change. I know not everyone does, but I’m definitely a different person than I was 20 or even 10 years ago. I wouldn’t apologize because you want to get the job but because it’s right thing to do.

  52. DCGirl*

    Look at it from this perspective. At my Bad Old Job, there was one guy who was a terrible bully. I don’t think he turned into a bully the day that he was hired by that company. I think we were seeing behavior that has been working for him for years (in a dysfunctional way). When behavior gets the results that you want, it’s likely to be repeated. So, for me, he became the landmine that I encountered when I was hired. This is the guy who greeted me, on my first day, with, “I’ve seen 23 people come and go in your position, and I know that you’re not going to last,” then did his best to make that come true. If he ever applied to work at my job, I would totally threaten to quit rather than ever have to work with him again. Not even if he a religious conversion, years of intensive counseling, and medication to deal with his psychopathic tendencies.

    It’s really hard to ever feel that you can trust someone who has treated you badly. This woman learned from the get-go that you were someone who can’t be trusted. It’s good that you’ve changed and that you can acknowledge that ways that you have hurt others in the past, but part of being adult is having to deal with the consequences of your actions.

  53. RebeccaNoraBunch*

    As someone who was bullied all throughout her teenage years, I echo the other formerly bullied folks who say it’s probably best to just move on. Definitely don’t apologize if you don’t even remember what you did (!). That’s far from genuine and it’s entirely self-serving.

    In my late 20s, a woman who had bullied me throughout junior high & high school contacted me on Facebook and apologized for her actions. I never replied. It was sweet comeuppance to realize that I did not have to engage with her ever again if I didn’t want to, which I absolutely don’t. The bullying she and her cohorts eked out on me throughout my teen years was severe to the point of triggering a lifelong struggle with lack of self-esteem, depression, and self-harm. If she or any one of them applied at my company, you can be sure I would be doing the exact same thing as your former classmate. No one deserves to have to see and interact with her bully every day as an adult.

    I also have no sympathy. What goes around comes around, as they say.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      My high school’s reunion committee tracked me down for the 20th (my parents moved when I was in college, so I had no links to the town and hadn’t been back), and after my “…. Huh. Uh hmm. Um” response, someone (whom I honestly didn’t remember) called and offered a sincere-sounding apology, that people changed and she knew I was bullied a lot and wanted me to know that people changed and weren’t those people anymore at 37. And I agreed. And I respect her for doing it.

      I didn’t go to the reunion, though. Even if it had consisted of people I barely remembered two decades later apologizing to me–that does not appeal as the way to spend a weekend.

  54. Dienna Howard*

    I’m glad to hear that the woman’s co-workers supported her and didn’t dismiss her concerns about having a former bully potentially join the team. Too many times the concerns of those who are bullied/have been bullied are dismissed. Glad to hear that someone listened and cared.

    1. BritCred*

      There is also the issue that the employer doesn’t know that OP has changed at all. Yes, they might have but without further proof all they know is what is on their CV and that another staff member has raised serious concerns about working with her for bullying in the past, even if that was at school.

      Frankly all they need is someone who is at least as proficient as OP and doesn’t have that reputation and the decision is made easily to not interview OP. They may not care about the past but take that as an indication of the possibilities and risks for the future.

      Sucks, but its true. Your past does stay with you…

  55. J-me*

    OP, you’re reaping what you sowed. Whether you think you deserve this boomerang or not, it is reality. Maybe just move on, and count it as a hard life lesson.

  56. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

    I’ve had a few of the girls that bully me reach out as adults. Not to apologize, but friendly words when they saw me out in public or a friend request on facebook and I’m pretty sure my face conveyed the “why the f*ck are you talking to me” that I was thinking. I do not want to see people that made my life hell for all of junior high and high school.

    However, I have worked at the same employer with two of them (the joys of a small town) and it was…fine. We didn’t really have to talk to each other for our jobs, so that helped. But I just hated having to see them everyday. It was a constant reminder of a time that I didn’t ever want to think about again.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      Yep. I am sure I’ve had the same expression on my face.

      Too bad they can’t see it when they send me friend requests on social media.

    2. Charlie*

      I ran into a guy I went to high school with, who was generally kind of a dick but not really a bully, a few weeks ago after a hike. There’s me, sitting on the tailgate of a Jeep with a cute dog with a bandana around her neck, still about the same weight I was then, and there he was, easily 100lb overweight, sweaty, and gin-blossomed. It was cordial and he was pleasant, but I’m not gonna say I didn’t get this sweet little glow of satisfaction from the encounter.

    3. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      So years ago I was in a restaurant with my husband and as we were leaving a waitress, who was not the one who waited on me, stopped me. She kind of touched my arm as my back was to her. I turned with a smile and the moment I saw her face I stopped smiling. It was a mean girl from high school who had stopped me to say hello. I honestly don’t remember what I said or what I did. I remember a whooshing noise in my ears. My husband told me “You went from nice to bitch in less than a nanosecond.” He said I was cold, nasty, and the meanest he’s ever seen me. Seriously…I don’t remember a word of the interaction. I literally only heard the whooshing.

  57. Deanna*

    If she’s insisted that OP not be hired, either she is incredibly petty…or OP did something AWFUL to her. This doesn’t sound like the insistence of someone who merely had a rude comment said to them once or even a few times.

    OP is much better off moving on with their life. Or moving to another city. Because if she has this much sway at her own company, imagine the influence she might have with her professional network in that niche field.

    1. Deanna*

      It’s also a testament to OP’s obliviousness if he was unaware that she not only works in but is THIS powerful in an industry into which they are desperate to break. How could someone miss that in what’s apparently a tiny niche? It doesn’t matter if she’d changed her last name upon marriage; if he didn’t care to research power players at the company prior to his interview, he’s not ready to work there, period.

  58. Recovering Adjunct*

    Are you sorry for the way you acted or sorry it’s a barrier to getting what you want? If you apologize to her, I hope you apologize to everyone you treated badly during those years.

    If I were in her shoes, I wouldn’t believe for a moment your apology was sincere or motivated by anything other than wanting a job. I’ve gotten a few “out of the blue” apologies from people who treated me horribly in my under-18 years and every time, I knew it wasn’t about me but about what that person wanted– an eased conscious, professional connection, inclusion, etc.

    I always gave the apology freely but just because they apologized and I accepted, I’m under no obligation to bring that person into my life in any way, nor do I need to forget that person’s prior behavior. Frankly, I don’t think of those people or those moments very much but I would have zero interest in reintroducing them to my life in any serious capacity

  59. Celeste*

    OP, you have only been blacklisted from one job. Maybe you earned it, maybe you didn’t. I think you need to move on and find that job that is right for you. You say you would be willing to move for the right job, so I think it’s time to explore that. Get on with the work of becoming your best self now. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that you look into some social skills training. There is a really great podcast I like called The Art of Charm. I highly recommend this to you because I think it could be life-changing, if you are open to it.

  60. Emmie*

    This person seems to have a well-known professional reputation – especially given the awards unique at her level. Perhaps you need to think about whether it makes sense to relocate to stay in your niche industry, or to transfer your interests into another local industry. I worry that as she progresses in her career, it would impact your own professional reputation or advancement locally. You’re new enough to the field to give careful thought to your professional ambitions, and to determine whether your bullying was so pervasive that it may impact you locally no matter where you end up professionally (even in a different industry.)

  61. Zooey*

    Although they didn’t bully me, I do remember the school bullies from high school. Those kids were old enough to know better and were truly awful. Even though they were nice to me at the time, I would never want to work with them as an adult because I think they showed their true colors.

  62. Bend & Snap*

    I wasn’t bullied outside of some typical mean girl stuff in middle school.
    But a girl I went to middle school with was bullied to the degree that she has suffered with terrible repercussions ever since. She was (and is) a teeny tiny person so she was manhandled in ways most kids weren’t.

    bullying examples:
    Hung over a second-floor balcony by her wrists
    Pantsed–while wearing a skirt
    Hit, pushed, called names
    Stuffed in a locker
    Grabbed from behind and twirled around until she threw up. Also with a skirt on.
    Rumors, exclusion
    ETC

    Even a fraction of this isn’t something I would forgive.

    OP, you knew you were getting into a small field and shouldn’t hang all your prospects on one company. IMO you should look elsewhere and leave this poor woman alone.

    A lot of us feel like different people than we were in high school, but that doesn’t mean our actions then didn’t have a lasting impact for others.

    1. Lilo*

      I was that kid who hit my full height pretty early on and so was one of the tallest and biggest kids in class (I am totally average sized now but at 10 5’6” is big). My best friend was the smallest kid in class due to a childhood illness. I was shocked at how ridiculously my friend was treated by some mean girls who mocked her scars and her small stature. How could they be so mean to her? So one day after this girl grabbed something from my friend pushed her to the ground and was mocking her for her height, I grabbed the mean girl and shoved her against the locker and yelled “if you ever touch her again, I will mess you up”. I was shocked, but it worked, they steered way clear of us (somehow we were those kids who weren’t cool per se but everyone knew us and was nice). My mom wasn’t even mad that I got suspended for that.

      1. nonegiven*

        A young male relative was suspended from high school for hitting a guy who hit a girl. He posted what happened on Facebook, then announced that he wasn’t sorry for it and he’d do it again faced with the same circumstances.

  63. Dee-Nice*

    I would advise against emailing her if only to avoid exposing your mutual acquaintance who told you about the situation in the first place. I also agree with people who are saying not to write particularly if you don’t remember the specifics of what happened.

    It might be helpful for you to re-contextualize this a bit: even if it seems like it’s unfair to you to be penalized for something you did in high school, it is perfectly fair for her to use her (well-earned, it would seem) clout to avoid having to work with you. And if she is as generally conscientious as her work history implies, she is probably not doing this lightly and we can assume it would be genuinely uncomfortable for her to have to work with you.

    You sound like you are super-qualified; I hope you’ll find something somewhere else soon.

  64. Lissa*

    Ooh, this is rough. I admit I cringed a bit at the letter because there is a *very* strong element running through society that if you were a bully/mean/etc in high school you deserve anything that happens to you forever, and while I get where it comes from, I can’t agree with it. I was bullied and ostracized horribly in elementary school, and “moderately” in high school, but the thing is — we remember when people were jerks to us, but not when we were to other folk. I know two people I’ve talked to since high school who can remember being the victim of bullying but *don’t* remember what they did to me. I’m not saying that every person was both bully and bullied but perspective is very interesting, and the fact that LW doesn’t remember exactly what happened doesn’t mean they’re the same as they were in high school. I realize that I am a rare bird in that I don’t really hold grudges against former bullies, and yes, I’ve been told before that “it must not have been that bad” and other things because I see it differently on a personal level and don’t feel satisfied at seeing letters like this. But the reality is we *don’t* know how bad what happened in high school was based on this letter, so we’re all going to put our own experiences and lens on it.

    With all that said, I’d move on. Even if you can prove by some objective standard that what you did fell within the range of teenage jerkishness and not bullying, it doesn’t matter to this woman and her memories or perceptions. Sometimes you just have to move on. And since just as many people would hate being apologised to as would welcome it, I think sending an apology is a riskier move for everyone involved than just dropping it. Don’t focus on the unfairness to you. People get rejected from jobs for all kinds of reasons, and sometimes being a changed person is not going to matter. Not a HS situation but I know a couple of people who did some pretty crappy things in their early 20s and found that they couldn’t really get past it with their old social group, so they had to move on, no matter how much things had changed.

    1. PlainJane*

      “We remember when people were jerks to us, but not when we were to other folk” – yes. Part of what allows me to forgive the people who bullied me and move on is the knowledge that I am not perfect, that I can be mean and hurtful (usually unintentionally, but still…). I love your comment, and your advice to the OP is exactly right – whether s/he deserves to be blacklisted or not, that’s the situation, so might as well move on.

    2. Whippers.*

      Yes. This is so true!

      Obviously if someone had actually actively really badly bullied someone you would expect that they remebered that behaviour.
      However, sometimes people can be mean and hateful to others without even realising it. Things like ignoring people, and criticising them constantly. I don’t mean the active insults but just critical comments which take a gradual toll on people’s self esteem.
      So, I do think you are so right when you say that it’s just not a black and white situation of bullies being terrible people.

      However, the fact that the OP does not really seem to have any remorse for their actions makes me a bit wary.

    3. Sylvia*

      I love this comment.

      I think sending an apology is risky, but if you genuinely want to apologize, write it and send it without an expectation of or request for a response. If she doesn’t want it, she can delete it on sight.

    4. Marillenbaum*

      I love and agree with this wholeheartedly. I was bullied throughout school, and I also had a bit of a mouth, which means there are almost certainly times I hurt someone’s feelings that I simply don’t remember. I feel better giving out at least some of the forgiveness I would hope to see extended to me. None of that is incompatible with simply not wanting another person in your life, and in this case, it seems to be the route that this person chose. Refocus on a different company, live your amends, and good luck!

  65. Super Anon for This*

    This letter fills me with such mixed emotions.
    I was bullied in high school. Most of it was ‘just’ emotional cruelty, but the worst of the bunch almost killed me on two occasions. The first time, he came up behind me at a public pool and pulled- and then held- me under. I was on the verge of blacking out when one of my friends got an elbow into his side that caused him to let me go. His explanation to the pool staff was that we were ‘just horsing around’ and he got kicked out of the pool for the rest of the day. As a result, I was afraid to go to the pool again. The second time, he was going over to a friend’s house and was riding the same school bus as me, and put a plastic bag over my head and then put his hand over my mouth and nose. The bus driver had to pull over and pull him off me. His punishment? 3 days in school suspension and a ban on riding the same bus as me.

    It’s been 20+ years now, but if I saw him coming down the street, I’d cross the street to avoid walking by him. Partly to avoid interacting with him, and partly so I didn’t give in to the urge to push him into traffic.

    Some of my former bullies have reached out to me and offered serious apologies, which I have accepted. Some of my former bullies have reached out to me in the hopes of getting an in with my current company, and wanted to act like we were great friends in high school. Funny how those are exactly the people who get angry when I decline to provide them introductions.

    OP, you’ve taken the first step to understanding the harm you’ve inflicted, but it’s just the first step. As long as you see apologizing as a way of getting something for you, regardless of any personal growth you’ve experienced since then, you are going to come off to your old classmate as the same old bully. I urge you to do some serious self-reflection on what you put that classmate through. Regardless of whether you end up apologizing, and whether she is ever willing to work with you, the insight will be helpful to your future employment.

  66. Mena*

    ” … I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17.”
    Maybe, maybe not. But this person feels strongly about not wanting to associate with you and she is the known entity to this company … they trust her and value her and clearly want to keep her. She’s raised concerns about you and I think you need to live with that and move on. It was nice of the acquaintance to give you the insight.
    In my 30 year career, I can think of four people from previous professional roles and two from more personal interactions that I would NEVER associate with again, and if I heard one of them was under consideration for hire, I too would raise concerns. It happens – learn from it and move on.

    1. Recovering Adjunct*

      Yeah, the letter writer may not deserve being blacklisted but the Rockstar at Dream Job certainly didn’t deserve to be bullied.

    2. Academia Escapee*

      Why isn’t a person responsible for what they said at 17? 17 year olds have raped and killed people. Are they excused of that because they were 17 at the time? I’m NOT equating bullying with rape and murder. I’m merely calling out the idea that the OP thinks they should be excused because of the age at which the indiscretion was made. We’re still responsible for our actions, regardless of how much we changed in the interim. Being young doesn’t excuse you from the wrong you do.

  67. SophieChotek*

    I had this happen to me (when I was in college) and working at a retail job. I found out (after the fact) that my manager had hired a girl who had bullied me. In what I am sure was not my most mature moment, I declared that I would “never work with that girl” and I think I explained that she had been mean and said unkind things to me. I think my managers jaw literally dropped because I never made those sorts of statements and pretty much got along with everybody. It was already a done deal, and the manager wasn’t going to un-hire her, though (as I vaguely recall), my manager did a very good job of not scheduling us together, unless we had to overlap and there were other employees on shift too. To be honest, it turned out to be not bad at all. I don’t think the bully realized/remembered she’d said some mean things to me though she did recall we’d gone to middle school/high school together. By the end, I had to decide she’d matured, we got along find, and in the end I kind of liked her in the vague, general way you “like” a co-worker sort-of-way.

    But that’s just my story and I don’t want to discredit the real hurt and pain that others have experienced at the hands of bullies in school/social groups.

    About writing an apology – I wrote an apology (to a friend) for college about having offended her — it was years later, but the incident had continued to bother me. She seemed very surprised I had to apologize and just said “don’t worry about it” and we moved on. But I was glad I had apologized and no longer feel guilty. Obviously, unlike the OPs experience, in this case I perhaps felt I had done more wrong than the person against whom I had acted.

  68. Granny K*

    “I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl. ” Just this sentence alone sounds like the LW is minimizing his past behavior as well as taking little to no responsibility for his actions. Is he saying what he wants is more important than her feelings? He sounds like he hasn’t changed much since 17. She’s the ‘golden girl’ for a reason: because she worked for it, and it didn’t happen over night. Sure he’s had two internships, but he’s still at the beginning of his journey. If he really wants this career (and not that he wants it because he likes to get what he wants), then keep plugging away, and consider relocating.

    Re-reading this I know I sound a bit bitter. But I was bullied by folks, some within my own family. I get so tired of former bullies, and others making excuses for past cruel behavior. Let’s all stop normalizing meanness.

  69. Peegy*

    For the OP, my advice is do not contact her. Your motivation isn’t pure: you’re resentful that she’s blocking your career prospects and your hope is that if you apologize, she’ll relent. That is 100% self-serving and that will come through loud and clear if you reach out to her. You don’t think the situation is fair; I’m sure she feels the way you treated her wasn’t fair either. LIFE IS NOT FAIR.

    FWIW, I was bullied in school so my sympathies naturally lie wth her and not you. From a work perspective though, I don’t find what she is doing problematic at all. I wouldn’t want someone I didn’t like, respect or trust to be hired by the company I work for.

    If you get to a point in the future where you can apologize to her with no ulterior motive and no longer feel any resentment towards her about losing out on this job, maybe. But that’s a big IF.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Thinking about it, I have to agree with the advice not to contact her. There are some people who teased/somewhat bullied me as a kid that I would be more than happy to sit down and have coffee with, even become friends with if it turned out we had a lot in common now. But there are some I could never do that with, no matter how much they changed. Those are the ones I’m happier never having to think about. That’s probably the case here.

  70. The IT Manager*

    LW, don’t bother trying to apologizing. You’d do poorly since your memory is very different than hers based on your comments: I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl. Your actions were so very hurtful to this woman that she’s refusing to work with you over 10 years later. And even if you can’t remember the details of your casual meanness, she obviously remembers with crystal clarity. I doubt you can offer a seemingly sincere apology when it’s obvious that you really don’t remember the events, and you didn’t feel sorry and apologetic about your teenage actions until it started affecting your adult life.

    I agree that it sucks and it’s not fair, but the hiring process is not fair. I do think you should keep applying to jobs that you’re qualified for. Your former victim is a rock-star, who may move on to another company at any time. Or she’ll not get asked about her opinion on your hiring next time or she’ll start to think she can work with you or the job you apply for doesn’t work closely with her at all. Keep trying; it may work out for you.

  71. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    Upthread, iseeshiny said: My personal opinion is that while it sucks to still be reaping the consequences of your actions years down the line, it happens to a lot of people and it’s just something you have to deal with.

    That’s making me think about how that is true of literally everyone; it’s just not that often that we know exactly which consequences we are reaping of which actions. Something about knowing the details — the OP is not getting this specific job, because of that specific behavior in the past — makes it feel unfair.

    I know my husband struggles with this. He screwed up in college, which delayed the start of his career, meant that he didn’t get into his first-choice grad program, and didn’t get the career-making job that he wanted out of grad school (he’s in a highly competitive field where, for first-jobs-out-of-grad-school, companies actually review and consider undergraduate transcripts). It’s crazymaking that the irresponsible choices he made as a 21-year-old college student have hindered the career prospects of his 37-year-old self.

    … I don’t really have any closing thoughts. I’m just reflecting on how this happens across the board, and how I wish it didn’t.

    1. Lissa*

      Yup. This is also why I hate the “oh, haha, karma!” attitude around stuff like this. Consequences don’t get applied fairly, and some things we can fix, others we can’t.

      1. Marillenbaum*

        This, so much. I would love to imagine that if people got what they deserved, I’d have a million dollars and weekly appointment with a hairstylist; realistically, it would be a $20 gift card to Starbucks and a bike with a flat tire.

      2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Lissa, I’m with you – I really don’t like the “haha, karma” attitude either. I was bullied very harshly in grade school (to the point that I had bald patches because I started hair pulling as anxiety response to the bullying). One girl was particularly harsh. I found out later her mother constantly compared her to me and pushed her to be more like me (I was the quiet, well-behaved kid who got the best grades) so she lashed out to me. I also found out that her mom put her on her first diet at 8 years old, and this girl was not overweight. I was so angry at her, even after I found all of this out, but eventually the anger dissapated and my heart breaks when I think about what it must have been like dealing with that mother.

        It would bring me no joy whatsoever for her to get her “karma” for treating me so cruely.

        She’s actually doing quite well in life. Whereas I was really struggling for a little while in my early-20’s. I still have small twinges of “its not fair”, but I can’t be angry at her. Success is not a zero sum game.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Reaping the consequences of our actions: We woefully underestimate the cumulative impact of what we have done. I remember a family member (not a likable person) laying in a hospital bed with almost everything wrong that could possibly be wrong. And the doctor said, “This person spent their entire life building the mess they have on their hands right now.”

      To think that our actions will not have repercussions later on is, at best, unrealistic thinking. Looking back on my life, I am shocked by how many little good choices stacked together have worked into something favorable for me. And I also am shocked by how many little poor choices I have made have worked against me. Now I am just talking about little choices. Bigger choices also have a culmulative effect and likewise that can go either way- good or bad.

  72. SameCoin*

    I think both people are in the wrong, speaking as someone who was mercilessly bullied and who has been a bully. The OP needs to commit to a sincere apology and know that at this time his employment prospects at this company are nil, however that doesn’t mean at a later date this wouldn’t be an option. I think the “black list” person, needs to grow up a little bit. Is everyone telling me they never received a 2nd chance at something? People can and do change them. If I was in the ” the Black lister’s” situation, I think it would’ve been appropriate to give my boss a stipulation, ” I will try to make this work, but if any sort of issue comes up with this person ( that is not related to the quality of our work) I will not hesitate to resign” which could be enough to dissuade them from even considering X person.

    1. Charlie*

      I’ve received second chances. I’ve also gotten lasting consequences for a single infraction. Sometimes, what’s fair to you isn’t in the cards.

    2. Recovering Adjunct*

      We have no idea what the letter writer did as a bully and to say she needs to “grow up a little bit” isn’t helpful.

      I have a three-inch-long scar on my arm where a childhood bully held my arm down on a hot curling iron. I’m nearly forty and I’ve walked around with this visible scar for decades. I am sure that bully of mine has received some second chances in her life. They do not need to be from me.

      1. Pretend Scientist*

        Yes, this is the thing–it’s not like OP can’t get a job, ever. It’s just not a possibility at this employer, in this town, at this time. Those are the consequences of OPs actions, whether they seem fair or not. The options now are wait it out until circumstances change at the desired company, or relocate and work in the desired industry somewhere else.

      2. HisGirlFriday*

        ‘I am sure that bully of mine has received some second chances in her life. They do not need to be from me.’

        I think this bears repeating: People may deserve second chances, but not necessarily from the people they wronged.

    4. Stop That Goat*

      I don’t know this particular situation but I was accused of rape by my bully. At the time, I was a closeted gay male and felt forced to come out as a result. Although she came clean about the lies once the school got the cops got involved, she had already perpetuated the rumors and many people never viewed me the same. After high school, I left that town as quick as I could largely because of everything that happened in that situation.

      I’d never be able to trust her for my own self preservation. I’d always be looking over my shoulder if I had to work with her and constantly on high alert. People do change but the trauma that she inflicted on me will always shape my interactions with her (and truthfully, others as well).

      It’s just not that clear cut.

    5. anon for this*

      I disagree vehemently. I have PTSD from what my bullies inflicted on me. I should not have to work with people who trigger (in the medical sense) me.
      I’m not going to go around trying to ruin their lives, but damn it, they’ve already had one crack at ruining mine, they did a pretty damn good job at it, I’m not going to give them a second chance. Even if it is just through involuntarily bringing up traumatic memories.

    6. Jessie the First (or second)*

      No. The victim does not want to work with her bully. She does not need to “grow up” about that.

      It’s just wrong to tell a victim (of abuse, of bullying, or of a crime) that they are now time-barred from having difficulties. That other people have declared the deadline for how long they have to process it, and that deadline has passed, and now they are In The Wrong for not being willing to be in daily contact with their abuser/bully/criminal.

      Obviously, if this was not bullying but just “OP was not nice to me” then I’d say sure, you may be right. But I have to contort myself into a pretzel to think this was not bullying.

      The bully can certainly get a second chance – but somewhere else, at another job.

    7. AMG*

      I agree with the others that she can and should decide who she wants in her life. It has everything to do with the fact that she already has grown up. I am fine with calling it Karma too.

    8. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Someone upthread referred to “Schrodinger’s bully” and I think that’s a good way to frame it as opposed to deserved or undeserved second chances. Some bullies grow up to be kind and thoughtful people. Others are the same horrible human beings at 27 that they were at 17 and that they will be at 37 or 47. OP believes that she is is the former type, but Rockstar has absolutely no way of knowing that. It’s not a risk I would be willing to take if I had the work capital to avoid it.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      We don’t know for a fact what the employee told her boss. The boss could have asked and she could have simply said, “I don’t have anything positive to say.”

      I think the employee did grow up, she moved beyond the bullying and made her life a success. That sounds like growing up to me. Setting boundaries is part of being an adult. I don’t think she needs to grow up because she doesn’t want to be around OP, this is what adults do they move away from people who are or who they perceive as toxic.

    10. seejay*

      Someone can get past the bullying they received and not carry mental, emotional or physical scars from it.

      Others don’t want the daily reminder.

      Saying the “black list” person needs to grow up and get over it trivializes the trauma that she feels she endured. You have zero way of knowing how deeply this effected her. While we don’t either, it’s obviously enough that she was willing to put her job on the line over it.

      So no, you do not get to discount someone’s past and say “get over it”. That’s up to them to decide when they’re over it, and for her, it might be never.

  73. Roker Moose*

    Actions have consequences. I’m sorry to say it seems like the LW is finally getting her consequences for her bullying in high school. I was badly bullied when I was younger– had to change schools– so it’s possible my view of this situation is blinkered, but I’d be horrified to learn the people who made my life a living hell would be working with me. I hope you apologise, LW, and like Alison says, because you are sincerely sorry, not because you’re after a job.

  74. Undine*

    I’ve been both the bully and the bullied. I do remember at least some of the people I harmed, with deep and burning shame. I knew even at the time (10 to 12, mostly) that what I was doing was trying to push my pain onto someone else, and hated myself for it and couldn’t stop it. I’ve spent a lot of years in suicidal depression, I’ve struggled to become a better person (and really, I think that by my nature I’m an average decent person, I was just doing what I knew). But if I ever lost a job I really wanted over it, it’s karma. Other children had their own hells, and if I contributed, that’s what they’re going to remember and they don’t owe me anything. I’m not inclined to go hunting them down to apologize — I don’t believe they want to hear from me. Whether or not they want to work with me, it’s not about me, it’s about them — about them feeling safe in their work environment, about enjoying their work, about forgetting a time and place they want nothing to do with. And any company is right to prioritize the safety and comfort of their employees over the application of a person they know nothing about. Is that “fair”? You could say none of the things that brought me to be a bully were fair. But actions have consequences, and they ripple out far beyond the time and place where they occurred.

    Every life has opportunities and constraints. I don’t think this will define your life. If this is what you want to do, and you really are qualified, you will find another opportunity. This is just one small thing in a large constellation of events. But don’t get hung up on this, and try not to think of yourself as a victim. Taking responsibility for who I was, and not minimizing it, didn’t transform my life, but it did transform me. We all have a bully somewhere in us, and truly owning it is hard, but powerful.

    1. Sadsack*

      This is an important perspective and so well stated. I wish I could push this toward the top of the comments.

    2. detached anon*

      Thanks for this, Undine. I was hoping for some perspectives like this. I like your last paragraph, especially the encouragement that “I don’t think this will define your life.”

  75. Rivakonneva*

    I was mildly bullied in elementary school and BADLY bullied in middle/high school by a small group of mean girls. To the point that they threw rocks and pine cones at me as I walked home every day for a few years, in addition to ostracization and cruel ‘pranks’ in school. Nothing I did stopped them and none of the adults in my life knew what to do. (To be honest, the teachers didn’t seem to care.)

    If any of those people tried to get a job in my department, you bet your bippy I’d blackball them. I try very hard not to wish them ill fortune, just that they stay FAR away from me. Most days I succeed, but I still get flashbacks now and then. OP, please write this company off and try to get a job elsewhere. I hope you do well in life, but leave your poor victim alone. She deserves peace.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      It’s amazing how flashbacks of being bullied as a kid can still have such a strong emotional impact. I’ve been through experiences that should be worse in my memory, and yet they don’t come anywhere close to those.

      The worst memory for me is from fifth grade. I don’t remember what started it, but I ended up getting surrounded by a group of kids in my class out the back door of our classroom while they chanted “freak” at me. The part I remember most distinctly was the fact that my teacher was standing in the door watching while it happened.

      My mother was picking me up that day (I usually walked home) because of an appointment. I remember being mortified when I found out she’d seen in happen. Being a good mother (although I begged her not to do it at the time) she dragged me to the principal’s office to report what had happened. I didn’t tell her or the principal about my teacher watching the whole thing. I wish I had.

      1. Also Anon*

        @ Imaginary Number I am so sorry that happened to you. Fourth and Fifth grades were the worst for me. One of the things I remember is how ashamed I was to tell my parents how badly I was being treated. I don’t think my teachers knew how bad it was either. At least that’s what I hope.

        OP, the emotional scars from my years of being bullied are very deep and severe. I feel certain that the people involved do not remember what they did to me. They were only children, after all. However, the fact that we were all nine and ten does not diminish my pain. This was over forty years ago and still I vividly remember everything about those two horrible years.

        To be completely honest, I’m not sure how I would react if any of my former torturers were to apply for a job at my place of employment. I have never considered the prospect before. I like to think that I have moved on. I really am not sure how I would feel. I would appreciate a heart-felt apology, I believe. However, the apology should be sincere and completely unconnected to the prospects of obtaining a job. Otherwise, the apology will seem self-serving and insincere.

  76. Imaginary Number*

    As someone who was bullied horribly in middle school and somewhat in high school, I have to agree with Alison. There’s a good chance that it’s less about being afraid of working with you and more about feeling extremely uncomfortable working with her former bully, reformed or otherwise. And there’s also a likelihood that any attempts at an apology (at this point) are going to come across as motivated by desire for the job, especially if you were the sort of person who could maintain a charismatic nice-person exterior in high school while acting the bully in private.

    I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

  77. Allison*

    Two things:

    1) Apologizing this soon after getting rejected from the job looks bad, like you’re just “sorry you got caught” or you’re only pretending to feel bad now that there are consequences. So if you apologize, emphasize that this circumstance prompted you to find out you’d treated her poorly, and you’d like to apologize now that you realize how awful you were.

    2) Do not acted like you’re entitled to forgiveness. She doesn’t have to give you closure, she doesn’t have to change her mind on her employer hiring you, she doesn’t have to respond at all! Do not get mad if this apology does nothing for your situation, and don’t even try subtle guilt to manipulate her.

    1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      Yep to #2. I totally refused an apology from one of my bullies. A nasty boy who used to try to grab my body reached out to me about 15 years ago. He had a new daughter in his life and he wanted to apologize for his behavior. I may have accepted it if he hadn’t said “I’m sorry that I used to grab you, but you were always such an easy target.” Seriously? He was blaming me? I told him that I hoped his daughter wouldn’t have to know the hell that was my life during middle and high school but that I couldn’t accept his apology because I couldn’t forgive him.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      Yes, #2. There are many times when someone has offered me an apology and I’ve said, “I suppose I appreciate the apology but I don’t accept it. Live with what you did.”

    3. Sylvia*

      +1

      If you apologize, write it in a way that doesn’t require a response, too. She can read the letter, know how you feel, and reply if she has something to say. If not, you’ve gotten it off your chest and she’s gotten the apology she deserves. Mission accomplished.

      A girl who bullied me horribly in middle school apologized later in high school and asked if I accepted her apology. I don’t hold the phrasing against her because, jeez, we were both kids! I’m impressed that she apologized at all! But if an adult asked that, I might feel they were asking me for more “emotional work” than I really want to do for them. And I might not want to get into a conversation with someone who I haven’t gotten along with.

  78. Anon today...and tomorrow*

    Just wanted to add….I find it interesting that in reading the comments the gender of the LW is all over the place. Apparently a lot of us are projecting our bullies into his/her voice. I read the letter as a woman because I was tortured by girls for the most part.

    1. (different) Rebecca*

      I read the letter as a woman because same-gender bullying (unless there’s a heterosexual-abuse component to it) is considerably more common. But yeah, there’s no indication in the letter, is there?

    3. kc89*

      I noticed that too. This website leans towards her/she when gender is unknown but there’s been plenty of he/him in this post.

      1. LBK*

        This is totally gendered but I assumed the OP was male only because when I think of a teenage girl displaying that kind of behavior, the term that comes to mind is “mean girl” rather than “bully”. Although now that I reread it, bully is only in the title, not in the letter itself.

  79. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I probably would threaten to resign if I had to work with some of my bullies. I was bullied from starting school to graduation, then again less overtly in college (I joined, unknowingly, a rather conservative Christian campus group to make non-partying friends, and I was just a more liberal one- when I came out as a lesbian and wanted to STAY Christian, they lectured, harassed, and then ostracized me). Those college people, or the girls who lived near me and would shove/trip/slam down on my feet all the time, or call me a Nazi because I speak German and family is from there? Or the guy from high school who claimed a change of heart because he had become a pastor when I was 24? (He sounded sincere but later USED ME AS A BAD EXAMPLE IN AN ANTIGAY SERMON not a month later). Nope!

    But I also know an apology and growth can go a long way. I would be happy to work, even closely, with the ringleader of my middle school bullies, who focused on embarrassment and isolation, not physical stuff. It was still vet painful, but? When I got to be a high school junior, she started acting friendly and apologized. I then told her how I had suffered, developed bad habits, and had to have a lot of counseling because of her.

    She burst into tears and said I didn’t ever have to even look at her again, and I could be awful to her- she deserved it. But she had also explained how much her own insecurity played into her awful behavior, and how she was jealous and worried I would get better grades and such in school than her. I was a complete grade-fanatic due to parental pressure and my own anxiety, so I just felt that we were the same in that way. And I could tell she really felt how bad what she did was.

    So I forgave her, and we got along well enough to work together in classes (same small advanced classes track, and we were actually very alike). Now we’re “friends” of a sort, on social media and such, and for a while we went to separate grad schools on the same university campus- if we saw each other, we could just talk as friendly acquaintances, and helped each other- the line for campus coffee or books could be awful, and we would let each other cut in.

    1. Charlie*

      “He sounded sincere but later USED ME AS A BAD EXAMPLE IN AN ANTIGAY SERMON not a month later). Nope!”

      There’s so much nope there, it has to be expressed using exponents. Like Nope^10. Drop the 50 meganope bomb.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I’m a lawyer now. Told him I’d sue for libel/slander/defamation, whichever applied, because I was definitely identifiable in the sermon, if he ever did it again.

        He doesn’t need to know that would be nearly impossible to actually do. ;)

        1. Michele*

          I am getting feistier as I get older (as my husband can attest) and at this stage in my life I would gather my friends for a gay rights parade in front of his church as it was letting out. Your way is probably more civilized, though.

          1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            Unfortunately not practical- he’s at th East End Church of Christ…in the Cayman Islands. Screw you, Daniel! Why do you, a bad person, get to enjoy awesome weather?

            1. Jessica*

              On the positive side, eventually rising sea levels will swamp him like the naughty people that didn’t make it onto Noah’s ark.

            2. Clewgarnet*

              If it’s any consolation, my main memory of living in the Cayman Islands is that they’re dusty and horrible. BVI and Bahamas are far nicer.

  80. JamToday*

    The damage from bullying is bone-deep, that is for sure. I can think of two people right now that I would literally walk off the job if they were hired. In fact, I would probably have to leave the building if I even saw them so much as sniffing around for an interview. The mental price I’d pay just to be able to function near them is way too high, and my current salary does not make up for it. I’d rather sling coffee at Dunkin Donuts than ever be in the same building with either of them again.

  81. DefinitelyAnonHere*

    I don’t want to use my regular name for this but I was bullied my whole childhood and there is no way in hades I would ever work with any of those people. One boy that I went to school with from kindergarten until I graduated from high school was popular and good looking. He used to bully me and then one day he acted so nice to me and asked me out. At first I didn’t want to but I was sure it was a trick. He convinced me he had changed and only bullied me because he liked me. On our date he took me to the bleachers where everyone went to make out. He kissed me and we took our shirts off. Then I was ambushed by his friends and the popular kids. They took my pants. There are pictures. They used a bike look to chain me to the bleachers and left. I slipped out and had to walk home in my underwear and undershirt almost 4 miles in the dark. Some of the girls in my class stole my clothes when I was showering after gym and ran them up the flagpole. I had to take the bus home in an oversized t-shirt and paper flip flops that I got from the gym teacher. There were pictures taken of that too. It didn’t help that my parents were alcoholics and stoners and we didn’t have running water or hydro most of the time. I was the smelly, greasy, buck-toothed, extremely overweight, flat-chested kid who had to wear her parents unwashed and oversized clothes. I turned 18 the day I after I graduated and left and never looked back. It’s been 9 years. Even though I lost weight, got my teeth fixed, can shower and wear clothes that fit I still feel like that the awkward person I was back then lots of the time. And I don’t care if my bullies cure cancer or are sainted. I will never associate with them again. I am so thankful there was no social media back then like there is now. I didn’t have a single friend back then. I don’t care how nice the bullies are now, they made my life hell back then. I would resign on the spot before I worked with one of them.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I feel that way about most of mine. I think part of the reason I had such a high reading level as a tiny kid and read….well, the equivalent of a small library…each year was because no one would play with me.

      Teachers always tried to get me to go outside and to play and interact. I’m sorry, with who?

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Sending you love if you want it, DefinitelyAnonHere – I’m so glad to hear you’re out of that situation.

      1. motherofdragons*

        The literal #1 rule of commenting here is “Give letter-writers and fellow commenters the benefit of the doubt.” You may find the story hard to believe, but questioning this commenter’s story “out loud” is both unhelpful and unkind.

    4. Colorado*

      I’m really, really sorry you had to deal with all of that. Your post is heartbreaking.

    5. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Lots of good thoughts and cat cuddles to you. None of that was okay and you didn’t deserve it.

    6. seejay*

      We had a family of kids at my grade school who’s story sounds similar. My family was poor but theirs was definitely way poorer. They were the kids that looked it when they came to school. My mom stayed at home and did the laundry and cleaned, so while our clothes was second hand, at least they were clean… I don’t know the family life these three were coming from, but they were always dirty and in worse looking clothes than my sister and I, and they were picked on constantly by the other kids. They were super quiet and I *think* the boy in my class hung out a bit with two other boys that were also socially awkward. I remember losing out on a lotto draw for a big ream of paper to him but I was actually really happy he won it because he was the only other kid in the class that could draw better than me and I always had paper for sketching on, while I saw him using his notebooks instead.

      I don’t know what happened to the three of them, I never talked to them or saw them after I went to highschool, but I hope life treated them well after they got out of school. And I hope you are too.

    7. detached anon*

      DefinitelyAnonHere, I’m so sorry for all you had to endure both at school & at home.
      Congratulations on not looking back!
      Continue your path & use any awkwardness as your courage & armour for the new life you began on your 18th birthday. :-)

  82. Aveline*

    I’ve done a lot of work with tribes in the US and some in Canada.

    Several of them have a justice model that is

    1. Recognize the harm
    2. Perpetrator has to acknowledge the harm publicly and internally
    3. Victim is heard in full and centered in process
    4. Restitution (e.g. Pay for damages) to victim
    5. penance to community (e.g. Volunteer at a shelter)

    I wonder if OP really is even on step 1

    1. lauraxe*

      Exactly – the OP is really minimizing their actions and impact here.

      Luckily I’ve never experienced any significant bullying, but I also wasn’t the most popular kid in my high school (not even close!). I can vaguely remember a few mean comments people said to me (graduated 10 years ag0), but I certainly wouldn’t care if any former classmates applied for a job at my company.

      If this woman is still impacted enough 10 years later that she goes out on a climb professionally to ensure that OP didn’t get hired, it seems most likely that there was some pretty serious bullying involved.

  83. Just Another Techie*

    LW, you say ” I worked so hard for so long to get the training required for this type of work, and I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17.”

    May I suggest practicing some empathy and flipping that statement around. The victim of your bullying also worked hard. She also went through training to do this type of work. Can you imagine her saying “I worked so hard for so long to excel in school and get the training required for this type of work. I finally made it and have put my past as a victim of high school bullying behind me. I don’t think I deserve to have to re-live the horrors of being 17.”

  84. Evie J.*

    I think moving on from the company is best. I’m not so sure about contacting her with an apology. Even if this is weighing heavily on your conscious, this person threatened to leave her job at the mere possibility of hiring you. That’s not something you do lightly. I think I’d be freaked out if someone I was that uncomfortable with contacted me via my work email particularly if I was the reason they lost the opportunity. I know most work emails are easy to guess, but I still think it would be weird. I know in a perfect world apologizing like that is considered commendable, but I think it would be kinder to leave her be at least for now since whatever you did caused such a drastic response from her.

  85. SehrSehrAnon*

    Regular going anon here.

    I wouldn’t work with most of my bullies, except one that really acknowledged and felt the harm and has only been kind to me since. My bullies caused me to start self-harm at a very young age. I’m now in a professional field where judgment is important and one has to disclose mental health stuff for licensing and talk to a licensing board about it if you’ve had those problems. So, these bullies affected my career….I’ll sure as heck affect theirs, unless they really have made amends.

    FWIW, the bully I forgave has said she is willing to help me in any way with the licensing board and health stuff; write or appear to them and throw herself under the bus, so to speak.

  86. BritCred*

    I wouldn’t send an apology. If I’d raised these concerns about any of my bullies (I actually don’t remember their names which is probably a good thing!) and then got this email I’d see it as a “I know what you did to me! You stopped me getting that job!” and not a real apology at all. And that’s without considering the tone used in any apology – which is always very difficult to get right.

    It just kicks up old dust and potentially, if the bullying had been bad enough, make me wonder if I should be looking over my shoulder now that OP has been reminded I exist!

  87. Kristine*

    OP, make this day your new beginning. From now on, you own and take responsibility for every, every, every action that you make and every word out of your mouth or written in an email, etc. From now on, you compare yourself to who you truly think you should be and how you should act, not to former classmates who are “rock stars” and have what you want, or to anyone else. Don’t minimize – look at yourself. But don’t condemn yourself absolutely, either.
    That will answer the question as to whether or not you should apologize.
    That will guide you as to whether or not you wish to apply to this company again. (I don’t think it’s completely out of the question.)
    That will help you as you consider other options, including freelance if that’s possible in your profession.
    Do what you believe in, believe in what you do, shine in what you do, and that will alert the right people to help you along.
    In the final analysis, all we have in life and all we depart from this life having is our character. Worry about that. The rest will come in time.
    Yes, I was bullied, too. Bullying is about fear. I knew that, even young. That helped me a great deal, to understand that.

    3. LBK*

      Hmmm, I don’t know if this really makes sense for the letter; the OP doesn’t seem to be denying that she treated this person poorly or otherwise not taking responsibility for her actions. She’s just asking if the situation is salvageable given what she’s done in her past. This feels a little too much like it’s implying the OP is still a bad person.

  88. lauraxe*

    I disagree with Allison here – an apology might make sense if the OP was truly remorseful, but they’re very clearly not.

    “I’ll be honest — I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl.” – Emphasis on PROBABLY. You can’t apologize for something that you either don’t remember or don’t want to acknowledge.

    “…I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17.” – I’m guessing that if someone still feels this strongly about how you treated them – 10 years on – it wasn’t just one thing you said when you were 17. It’s much more likely that it was an on-going pattern of abuse/bullying. Again, the OP is minimizing the harm they caused. Not good grounds for an apology.

    1. Sadsack*

      Yeah, it sounds like OP wasn’t ready to admit the full story here, but she better be prepared to if she is going to apologize.

  89. No Name Poster*

    I genuinely feel for OP, because many times, kids bully others as a defense mechanism or the result of being bullied themselves. I wasn’t a bully, but I did behave in a not-so-nice manner many times when I was younger. I didn’t realize until much later that it was likely the result of being emotionally and physically abused by my parents.

    But I don’t think I’d object to my company hiring someone who had bullied me as a child or teen. I’d assume they’d grown up and give them a second chance.

    1. Roker Moose*

      Not all bullies grow up to recognise the error of their ways. Some never fully understand the trauma they cause to others– some do, and don’t care. We don’t know what LW did or didn’t do, and I shouldn’t like to speculate, but her victim is clearly still in pain.

      1. No Name Poster*

        Yes, you have a point there that I should have considered.

        I was always taught to suck it up and be professional. I think probably I’m a bit skewed because of that.

        1. BioBot*

          We don’t have evidence that the OP’s victim was being unprofessional. It’s possible to state personal boundaries in a professional manner. Being professional doesn’t mean rolling over all the time.

        2. Roker Moose*

          Also, not every school bully ‘grows up’ or ‘grows out of it’. I don’t want any to cast unfounded aspersions on the LW, but let’s face it, there are plenty of adult bullies too. If the High Flyer hasn’t spoken to this person since school, she may well be under the impression that her bully is still a bully.

  90. Vicky*

    I was viciously bullied all through school. It was really bad. I must have gone through 5 different elementary schools trying to get away from it. It was scaring, for sure. I still think about it and acknowledge how it’s shaped the way I form friendships. Even so it is toxic to carry this hurt into adulthood, and I think it’s pretty vindictive for this woman to go out of her way to tell her company they can’t hire OP. I forgave my bullies, I even danced with one of them at my prom as an olive branch. It is so hard to put all that hurt and rejection away but it must be done. Children and teens often do not understand the consequences of their actions and it’s the kind of resentment best left in the past.

    1. SehrSehrAnon*

      So I should forgive the bullies who caused me so much pain that I started to self-harm? Despite help, it went on for over a DECADE. And started because they hurt me so badly emotionally. My career is even affected.

      I’m not a fragile millennial snowflake. I have a professional degree and a trusted, prestigious job. So I’m not being petty or whining when I refuse to forgive.

    2. Arpai*

      I’ll buy that a child may not understand what they’re doing, but if someone gets to 16 or 17 years old and is still torturing classmates, they are damn well old enough to understand that there may be consequences, whether it’s detention, or a picked-on kid finally gathering his strength to punch a bully in the face, or someone years down the road not wanting to be around a bully.

      1. N*

        +1 Yes. I was sometimes a terror as a small kid, but I definitely learned my lesson by the time I was that age. (And being bullied mercilessly in my own teenage years had something to do with that.) Vicky, I’m glad that you were able to forgive your bullies–I still think mine are assholes who knew better and actively chose not to be better.

      2. Charlie*

        This. A 12 year old maybe lacks the emotional maturity to connect empathy to their actions. 17? You can drive, and you’re a year away from eligibility for the military, porn, and voting. If you’re trusted to vote, you are mature enough to be held accountable for how you treat people.

      3. Sylvia*

        I’m not sure. The boy who constantly bullied and sexually harassed* me at 16 had a horrible home life and no friends. It had been like that since we were little kids. He had never experienced non-jerk behavior. I absolutely don’t want to be around him now, but I don’t completely hold him as responsible as I would an adult.

        *If you consider homophobic harassment to be sexual harassment, which I do.

    3. BioBot*

      It’s possible to forgive someone, put away hurt and rejection and also never ever want to encounter them again. And given that the OP has not acknowledged their actions and the harm they caused, why should their victim be the one extending the olive branch?

  91. Rebecca*

    I graduated from high school 37 years ago next month. I endured a “mean girl” crowd throughout junior and senior high school. Can I forgive them? Yes, I have. Would I ever be friends with them, or work with them, or reach out to them in any way? Never. They were nasty, horrible people, and I’m not enrolled in school any longer, so I don’t have to deal with them in any way, shape or form. I’m an adult, and that’s my prerogative.

    Actions and words have consequences. Sometimes, it takes a very long time for those consequences to make themselves apparent. I think the OP needs to move on and go work someplace else, and use this experience as a very valuable life lesson.

  92. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    I would have a lot less of an automatic Schadenfreude reaction happening in my gut if it ever occurred to you to apologize to your victim(s) *before* it became directly beneficial to you.

    Maybe this is a good prompt to examine the damage you may have done and what you could do to repair it on a larger scale. I hate to say it, but doing that in a truly apologetic spirit probably means giving any jobs at this company a miss.

  93. MsChanandlerBong*

    I’d like to think that I would not try to prevent a former bully from getting a job in the same workplace, but I’m not sure I can say that with 100% confidence. I know people can, and do, change, but some people are just so awful that their behavior is memorable even after 20 or 30 years. There is only one person in this entire world that I can’t stand simply because of the way she behaved in high school. She was terrible to me, and to many other people. I don’t remember most of the mean stuff she said, but I clearly remember her making a “joke” that went “What’s black and white and smells bad? The unemployment line.” So I would not be thrilled to work with her.

  94. Twirling Girl*

    As many have mentioned, it depends on what the bullying consisted of. Unless egregious where there was bodily harm or threats on my life, I would welcome the bully to join the company. The reasons are many and involve a lot of pithy sayings/ideas:

    Being the bigger person has its own rewards.
    Moving on past high school is what we’re all supposed to do.
    Living well, doing well, succeeding well is the best “revenge.”
    Carrying around a grudge just adds weight to your daily life.
    Romans 12: 19-20

    It sounds like the woman at the company who had been bullied has had no problems whatsoever in getting over it. Blackballing the OP is just her form of bullying, and shame on her for all her stellar work claiming not to be able to get over high school stuff.

    1. Super Anon for This*

      How about Matthew 7:1?

      By your account, because I’ve become a highly respected member of my chosen profession, I have ‘had no problems whatsoever in getting over it.’ Like the nightmares, the suicide attempts, the difficulty in forming lasting friendships, and ten years of therapy were nothing. What you see as bullying, I suspect the OP’s former classmate may see as necessary for her mental health.

    2. Leatherwings*

      This is beyond ridiculous. Success is a measure that all trauma or bad experiences have been resolved? The idea that someone not wanting to interact with a bully means they have become the bully is laughable.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      As I mentioned above, the person isn’t punishing the OP–she’s not saying “AT LAST I HAVE MY REVENGE!!” She made the evaluation that being around the OP would affect her performance to the point that she would have to leave, and her employer went from that.

      If you’ve been abused or attacked in other ways, you can “get over it” and still not want to interact with the person who abused or attacked you, especially if they’ve never shown any remorse or admission of guilt.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      She didn’t ask for advice. It doesn’t matter how much more forgiving you would be in her place.

      And this is based on a fourth hand report of her reaction a decade after vaguely described events. She does not deserve to be “shamed” (your word) for failing to get over past abuse on your schedule. Adults can set boundaries.

    5. Stellaaaaa*

      I’m not a fan of the “be the bigger person” rhetoric. The star employee is setting boundaries for herself. Her employer could push back on those boundaries but chose not to.

      This woman does not have to like the OP, and I think that’s something that gets lost in conversations of this nature, especially in liberal-leaning internet corners. There can be a lot of pressure to be nice to people who aren’t nice to others, people who adamantly and specifically don’t like YOU. But you still have to be nice to them! You still need to be a social martyr and prove what a good person you are by offering kindness to someone who will never return it! Many of us are capable of seeing how others move through the world and deciding whether that’s something we want to give tacit approval to by giving in to the pressure to be kind. Ever notice how these conversations almost always concern someone who maybe isn’t all that nice…but it’s a kinder person who’s being pressured to be accepting? I dunno, sometimes I spot a situation where some people are getting away with bad behavior, but when people speak up about it, those are the people who are silenced. I choose to side with the people who are pushing back on bad behavior. I’m not one for “aw, can’t people just be nice to each other?” It’s never directed at the people who need to hear that message.

      This may seem like a tangent but I think it’s relevant. I’m sick and tired of women being pressured to stay silent about people who have hurt them, and it’s gross when they’re pressured to be publicly kind to these people. No one ever lectures the bullies/abusers in this way.

      2. LBK*

        I find it odd that you say this is more prevalent in liberal-leaning corners of the internet; I think this is site is pretty liberal-leaning and the comments here almost unanimously agree that the employee is under no obligation to forgive the OP or be nice to her.

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          There have been quite a few comment-bomb posts lately involving women who were setting their own boundaries or acting in their own self-preservation where a lot of the comments had a vibe of “she needs to get over it” or “how dare she not put others above herself, although backstory indicates that these people have never and will never prioritize her?”

          1. LBK*

            Huh, I haven’t seen that trend, but maybe I’m just not reading as far into the comments on the bigger posts.

            1. Stellaaaaa*

              It’s the “it’s easier to reason with reasonable people” thing. I find that a lot of times, liberalism translates into saying, “just give him/her another chance!” when someone has legit reasons for wanting to cut someone off. It’s like when my ex fell back into addiction and had his violent tendencies exacerbated by post-Marines PTSD. I was pressured to have sympathy for addicts and mental illness and left-behind veterans, but not a single person in my left-leaning social circle gave a damn about the woman who was enduring domestic abuse (me). Not even the ones who claim to be feminists. They told me to be more accepting of him but they never told him to stop the abuse. So no, I’m not going to tell a victim of anything that she’s the one who needs to open her heart a little.

              1. Lilo*

                Interestingly my sister in law experienced something similar with her ex military spouse. She was expected to accept his mistreatment and alcoholism because of his past service. The fact that she was in literal danger didn’t matter to some people. I am very glad she got a divorce and restraining order.

                1. Stellaaaaa*

                  My ex is in jail now for beating up the woman he dated after me.

                  But if only I had just been NICE to him!

                  I try not to keep score in life, but when someone asks me to do them a notable favor, I consider carefully whether I’d be able to call on them in the future. I wouldn’t go out of my way to help someone who wouldn’t ever help me. They can ask some other fool.

              2. seejay*

                My assessment of giving people chances is usually “does giving X a chance put my mental/emotional/physical health at risk? Or does it make me uncomfortable? Or do I just not *want* it?” If I answer those questions, then to hell with what others think. I’m literally *tired* of that now. Worrying about what other people thought first before my own feelings and intuition is what got me into most of the messes in the first place.

                I’ve had some people call me selfish for it, but I’m too tired to give a damn anymore. :/

    6. Roker Moose*

      It’s possible the High Flyer has forgiven the LW: neither you nor I know her state of mind. But forgiveness does not necessarily mean acceptance. She can forgive her bullies and still wish to never see them again. It’s perfectly reasonable.

    7. Roker Moose*

      It’s possible the High Flyer has forgiven the LW. She can forgive her bullies and still wish to never see them again. It’s perfectly reasonable.

    8. seejay*

      Have you ever had to work with someone who was utterly rude and snotty and spoke degradingly to you? Sure, there was no bodily harm or threats on my life but when my workplace bully spoke to me like that, it brought up a lot of emotional and mental baggage from my childhood bullying and made me feel utterly worthless.

      Sure I could be the “bigger person” but for several hours my mental wellness sure took one hell of a kick and considering I was suicidal a few years ago due to other things going on in my life, I certainly don’t need things kicking my mental health around just for funsies.

      You can quote the bible all you want, but fancy words on a page doesn’t mean anything when words spoken from people are like daggers in your brain because they have the power to hurt. Childhood and highschool bullying can have a very long lasting effect. And yes, I have had therapy and work done to get over it and I’m in a very good spot in my life but occasionally things happen where I become vulnerable and having someone hit me when I’m down can reopen some of those wounds. We do our best to block those wounds from being rubbed regularly so they’re not easily breakable, it sounds like the woman at the company might very well be doing the same thing: making sure that her mental health/wellness is protected by not rubbing at wounds.

    9. Twirling Girl*

      Context is everything, ladies and gents. Please re-read the first sentence of my post.

      “Bullying” is a very broad term and it means different things to different people who react differently from other other people. Opinions are being framed in the personal experiences that we, the readers, have had and not necessarily of those of the OP or the High Achiever. As one who was bullied to the extreme, and who took years to find a healthy self-esteem, my *opinion* is just a valid on the situation as everyone else’s and I can appreciate that some are not able to let go of the angst while some are. We are not all the same.

      I am not without sympathy for the High Achiever; however, I believe in second chances and grace. If the OP wants to apologize without expectation of acceptance, let him. He should apologize, IMO. If she doesn’t want to accept it, that’s her business. Apologies – whether given or not – and forgiveness – in the face of an apology or not – are individual matters and no one here can know the heart or intent of anyone else.

      We are all applying our own world view and personal experiences onto the others because it touches close – VERY close – to home for some. There is no one-size-fits all answer.

      1. LBK*

        I don’t really see how this syncs up to your original comment, which explicitly says that the employee not forgiving the OP is a form of bullying in and of itself. How can you think that while also saying “If she doesn’t want to accept [the apology], that’s her business”?

        The OP should apologize, but the employee’s under no obligation to change her mind as a result, and to suggest that doing otherwise makes her a bully doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. “Shame on her” is completely unwarranted.

        1. Twirling Girl*

          The High Achiever is now doing the bullying by using her position to categorically deny someone employment. That is a personal issue taken into the workplace, and that’s a form of bullying.

          Meanwhile, scroll down, way down. The OP states what the bullying actually consisted of, and I have changed my mind. The OP has nothing to apologize for.

          1. LBK*

            That’s…just not accurate. An employee having input on a hiring decision is a completely normal part of doing business. It’s in no way bullying unless maybe it was being done in a vindictive manner, which I don’t think it is here.

          2. Lilo*

            Agreed with LBK. That isn’t even kind of bullying. Op wouldn’t even be aware of anything without the coworker’didn’t intervention.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Thirding. It is not unusual to be not given a job you want. Not giving a job offer is not bullying.

              I’m sure every single person who was ever on the end of a “Don’t hire him; he’s a jerk” would have a tale of how perceptions were off, or that was once accurate but they had changed, or their jerkness was a sign of awesomeness, or for whatever reason the past behavior should not count because Reasons. But most of them don’t have an acquaintance with inside info to tell them that Marge from Accounting holds the stealing of her tea stash against them to this day, and that’s why they didn’t get called back for another interview.

      2. seejay*

        Sure, the first sentence of your post says it depends on what the bullying consists of, then goes on to expound that unless it involved bodily harm or threats to your life, you’d welcome a bully into your workplace. Good for you. For some of us, it may not have had threats to our life or bodily harm but the mental damage it did was just as bad and we wouldn’t welcome a bully into our workplace and we take umbrage with being pretty much having it drawn as equivalent as bullying back by saying “nope, them or me”.

        The OP explains her side of it and while it seems pretty mild from her description, it’s pretty clear from a lot of explanations that bullies regularly don’t see their actions in the same light as their victims do, nor the long-lasting effects. While the Rock Star *may* be a drama queen and blowing this way out of proportion or took offense when none was intended back when they were 17, the fact is that now she still feels bad enough about it that she doesn’t want the OP working anywhere near her for her own protection and has enough clout to enforce that.

    10. Temperance*

      Ugh. “Be the bigger person” is my least favorite phrase of all time. All it does is suggest that bullies and jerks deserve a free pass to be bullies and jerks, and it encourages people to be doormats.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        Exactly. It makes me think of the line from the play “Death and the Maiden”:
        “And why does it always have to be people like me who have to sacrifice, why are we always the ones who have to make concessions when something has to be conceded, why always me to has to bite my tongue, why?”

    11. SeptemberGrrl*

      What are you even talking about? The topic here is “Should the OP contact the woman?” and your post has nothing to do with that.

  95. UnderpaidinSeattle*

    Hanging your whole professional future on getting employment at one place seems like a terrible overall career strategy anyway. You should never count on employment by a single niche company. If it weren’t this reason why it’s not a fit, it could be another. Figure out how your skills can be used elsewhere and keep plugging away. It’s a disappointment sure, but there were never any guarantees of a job there. In the meantime, I’d personally go ahead and send the apology. If it’s a small field and she’s a rockstar you may well run into her no matter where you land so, in my opinion, sending a sincere apology –one that does not ask for her forgiveness or for her to reconsider–is a good idea. Then lay off applications there for a while. Like at least two years. I’d consider broadening your idea of what an ideal position might be for you right now and just keep plugging away at the job search.

  96. PoniezRUs*

    I was a bully and I am horrified at the thought of running into my victims. I was not physically harmful but I was manipulative and gaslighted people. I made them feel inadequate. For many reasons, I felt the need to let people know they were not achieving their full potential. I would be nice about it sometimes but it would eventually lead to a condescending lecture about how they would fail if they did not get their stuff in order because from my POV, not being in honors classes and college bound was setting up the person for failure. I was arrogant and an elitist. I was mean to them in front of others and if I ran into them today, I would apologize and move on.
    I remember this one guy who would sit with me at lunch every day my senior year. He was on the fringe of having to go to summer school and graduate late. I lectured him and told him to get it together and not to waste his life (something along those lines). He was quiet the whole time. He never sat with me again. He smiled in the hallways but we were never as close after that.

    Wherever you are former lunch buddy, I am sorry.

    OP, please move on to other job prospects and take some time to reflect. She risked a lot to let her boss know how she felt. Please leave her alone. Sometimes our consequences follow us no matter how hard we work because it is not about what you deserve or how hard you worked. Sometimes people do not forget. To be frank, forgiveness is not owed to anyone either. Conversely, forgiveness does not entitle a person to integrate into the victim’s life.

  97. Amy*

    This makes me think of that stereotypical bullied nerd cliche, where they grow up and the victim is smarter and better at things and ends up in a position of power over their former bully, and the bully has to face the consequences of their actions. (This isn’t to say that she’s doing this out of malice or vengeance or anything; it’s just as likely that she experienced trauma from the bullying and having him around would be a nightmare for her, or that she just doesn’t want to deal with a coworker who has a history of being a jerk to her. But there is a part of me that, reading this, is pretty satisfied with the bully getting his comeuppance.)

    OP, you were cruel to this woman. I don’t know exactly what you did (and you might remember the details either), but it was bad enough that even years later, she’s determined enough to avoid you that she told her boss she didn’t want to work with you. Why would being 17 at the time absolve you from responsibility for your cruelty? 17 is old enough to know better, and clearly it’s old enough for this to have left a lasting impact on her, so I don’t see why you should be absolved of any consequences. That’s a pretty entitled attitude to take.

    Your lesson here is that if you’re cruel to others, yeah, it might bite you in the butt someday. Your options are to either look for a different career path locally, or move somewhere else to pursue the career you want at a different company. You can apologize to her (and anyone else you might have bullied–I’m betting it wasn’t just her) if you want; if you sincerely feel regretful for your behavior, it might be worth doing, just to know you did it. But I wouldn’t expect it to open any doors at this company. If you don’t want to deal with these kinds of consequences for your past behavior again, then treat people better.

    1. Just Another Techie*

      Heck, 17 is old enough to be tried as an adult in most criminal courts in the US.

  98. Caledonia*

    Many commenters have picked up the following in the OP’s letter: ‘I’ll be honest — I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl.’

    Now, people are judging the OP on what they mean by that. It’s entirely possible that the OP does have more self awareness and more self reflection that the tiny snapshot we have of their life – in the letter posted here. People are also judging that because of this comment, the OP got what she deserves, is reaping what she sowed etc. Maybe, maybe not.

    1. Sylvia*

      +1. We don’t know what OP did or said. Might or might not be enough for the many “you reap what you sow” comments left.

      I also don’t think that one phrase demonstrates whether OP has learned from their past behavior, understands how serious it was, or is empathetic enough for the other person. We’re reading a lot into it.

  99. lobsterpot*

    I feel like it would super weird me out to know that a coworker shared this information with the bully I didn’t want working there..? I think leave it, and forget the company.

  100. N*

    Oh, I would 100% let my employers know if a former bully was applying to work at my company. OP, please take this as a lesson that actions have consequences and even if you have changed since you were 17, your reputation is your responsibility.

    Incidentally–I was once warned not to hire a certain job candidate when I was a manager in college because I had heard secondhand that he was a bully. I didn’t heed the advice and he turned out to be the worst employee I’ve ever overseen. Since then, I have always decided to take note if a person tells me that a job candidate is disagreeable, unkind, or rude in any way. Please bear this in mind going forward, OP.

  101. sunny-dee*

    I don’t know if this has come up, but if the employee is really that much of a rock star, it’s possible that the company has plans to put her in management or she’s in a team lead position — someone who could well have authority over the OP. It could be that she said (among other things) that she couldn’t objectively manage the OP.

    1. Kfox (OP)*

      I got the impression from the acquaintance who passed this information along that Rock Star has, indeed, been fast-tracked for management, though in a different department than the jobs I have been applying for.

  102. A Canadian*

    Leave her alone. Leave this company alone. Consider this a lesson learned, and ensure that you treat others properly from now on.

  103. detached anon*

    OP, the older we get the more our decision affect our further. Usually we haven’t yet figured this out as teens…

    What stood out to me in your letter was that you seem to truly be impressed with your acquaintance’s work & achievements. For some reason that touched me. I want to say it would be nice if you could convey that to this person. Actually it would be nice, although I can’t recommend this for you because just now everything you say & do will be interpreted via a very raw & hurt filter so you need to proceed with extreme caution.

    My contribution to your question is to tell you how I might react if I worked at a company to which you applied. There are a lot of “probably” & “ifs” because if I’m honest about my thoughts & feelings, the one thing I know with certainty is that I don’t know how I’d actually react unless I were actually in the situation you described.

    For this perspective, OP, I need to narrate as if you were the one who bullied me & for some context I’m female & middle-aged. To be clear, I think your question is from something you genuinely want to address & I think that’s amazing.
    It’s also only the beginning.

    I can forgive without forgetting. Whilst I would want to forgive you if you’re truly sorry & can show me you’ve changed, I honestly don’t know if I can. In theory, I’d like the opportunity to try, although I really don’t know if you asked to talk with me if I could give you that opportunity.
    What you need to understand is this:
    Regardless of apologies or acceptance, there will always be a small buried part of me that is still raw emotion & taunting “Nyah, nyah, the bully can’t get a job, boo-hoo.”
    I don’t like that this part of me still exists, although it does & usually I’m able to keep it compartmentalised. Your question brought it out & I hope that it helps you.

    My career is as important to me as yours is to you. I’ve worked hard to be where I am & my colleagues respect me. I’m known not to put up with bs & the fact I was ever bullied is paradoxical to who I am today.
    I want to focus on my life in the present & I don’t want or need my colleagues to know much about my personal life or my past, especially not that I was bullied. The past is the past & whilst I’ve been able to learn & move past many things, what you & your cohorts did haunt me to this day.

    If someone who bullied me applied where I work, I’m not certain how I would react. Certainly I’d be very wary & on edge. Bully would need to work to earn my respect & trust… which will not come easy, especially if back-in-the-day Bully had pretended to be nice to me as a set-up for something mean. I don’t think I’d block your candidacy although if the office was small enough to where we’d be working closely then I might; there’s no way I can say for certain unless I actually had to make that decision.

    It would help if you sincerely acknowledged the hurt you caused me & apologised. If I can accept it, please tell me what you were thinking at the time & how you’ve changed for the better. Then give me space to process everything; don’t go out of your way with token behaviours geared just for me, just let me process & observe your professionalism. Probably I can work professionally with you yet I’d keep strictly to work topics & I might be a bit more abrupt than I should be. I’ll be courteous because that’s just who I am & the professional thing to do. Please do be courteous to me as you would any other colleague, such as holding a door open. I don’t want to be alone in a lift with you so let’s both try to prevent that. If we’re the same gender & you see me in the bathroom, do your thing & know that I’m prepared to escape if you make any move that reminds me of when you bullied me.

    Would I tell my colleagues about our past? No, with caveats.
    If I knew you continued any behaviours I witnessed into adulthood, I might feel obligated to speak up. I wouldn’t do this lightly; I’d have to decide if your behaviours might affect your work & how you’d fit in with the company culture.
    Actually, now that I’m thinking of this, I’d debate this just based on the teen behaviour.
    If I decided to say something, it would be on a need-to-know basis & as detached as possible.
    I won’t gossip about you. If a colleague were to notice tension then I’d mention we have a past & it doesn’t pertain to our work. Our colleagues can think whatever they want.

    I’d also be calling some close friends for their support & guidance on what I should do, OP. And if you were hired, there’s a chance I’d be calling them to help keep my perspective, because I’ll always have one eye out for you & your cohorts.
    /end/

    OP, the effects of bullying run very deep. Whilst I don’t relive those days of being bullied, when they come to mind I cringe & wonder what I even did to deserve it. Bullying isn’t just limited to “Bully & cohorts did this to me.” It isn’t just the confusion, hurt, shame & embarrassment from each time I was bullied. There were witnesses, there was gossip, teachers probably knew, the physical ed teacher was consistently nasty to me & joined in the taunts. I was too scared of the threats to tell & too young to push through all of that.

    The thing is, bullying has a cascading effect: someone bullies & because usually this bully is popular/cute/in student government/has the drinking parties/et cetera, Bully has set a type of standard that it’s okay to treat someone like crap both verbally & physically (as for the physical aspect, physical touch isn’t a requirement, it could be to block someone from entering or exiting a room). Even if the original bully leaves, there are still the cohorts who are left behind. They might not be as aggressive although they will continue to treat someone as an outcast. These effects can even move schools with the person who was bullied because this type of thing gets told between schools.

    All of the above occurs without social media. Add that to the equation and…

    The funny thing is that I’m really okay. Everything I just wrote was from my thoughts to your question. After this thread does down, I’ll tuck this back into its box & get on with my life. Being bullied helped to make me the person I am now & I’m proud of that. It also helps me to stand up when I see it happening now.
    So… thanks for that?

    Please update us. I wish you success in your career.

    1. detached anon*

      OP, the older we get the more our decision affect our further. Usually we haven’t yet figured this out as teens…

      *the more our decisions affect our future.

      OP, thanks for clarifying some questions. Your letter & participation in the comments do help show that you’re trying to move past things, in my opinion.

  104. Nana*

    I have to give XDH credit: When he was about to interview/be helpful to someone who had bullied me, I simply asked him not to…without details. And he backed right off. About a year later, he said he no longer wanted to spend time with a couple we knew…without details. And I returned the favor.

  105. Thinking Outside the Boss*

    This post has brought out some raw emotions in me that I didn’t expect, and next year will be my 30th high school reunion. Based on the above comments, I can tell you I wasn’t bullied, because what some folks have had to endure makes my high school experience of being teased, getting picked on, ostracized, etc., seem so vanilla. My heart has been breaking reading all the experiences of others who were, in fact, bullied.

    And all this has made me remember one of my classmates who everyone, including myself, made fun of for his speech impediment. I was a good kid growing up, and even I said awful, mean things to my classmate. I remember exactly what I said and it makes me want to vomit. I knew it was wrong then and to think of someone treating my son that same way makes me want to sob. There was no justification for treating my classmate the way I did. And there were kids who were worse to him than I was. I’ve tried looking him up over the years, and no one seems to know where he went to. His name is pretty common and he left our school when he was 13 or 14. I hope and pray that he is successful, that he is a rock star in whatever he decided to do, and I hope more than anything that he’s still with us. My stomach is in knots just thinking about him and the way I treated him.

    I want to provide constructive advice for the OP. I would see if you could find out whether your victim even wants to be contacted. If the answer is no, or if it’s too weird for your friend to find out, then move on. Don’t apologize, don’t hold out hope for working with this company, just move on. If the answer is yes, then as one person commented, only apologize once you’ve landed a new job.

    And if I ever run into my classmate, I would welcome any contact he would want with me. I’m truly sorry for my actions and my penance is to live with what I’ve done. And OP, you need to realize that and I think you haven’t learned this lesson.

    1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      In 8th grade science class I sat next to a new boy who was very smart, very awkward, and had a case of wicked BO. I hated sitting next to him because of his BO and I remember scooting my seat farther and farther away from him. I don’t remember saying mean things “to” him but I’m fairly sure I said them to my friend who was in the same class. I do know that this boy was aware of my not wanting to sit with him and he dreaded science class as much as I did – at least for the first month. Then our teacher started calling me out in front of the class for my behavior. He started teasing me that I must like this boy a whole lot to talk about him all the time the way I was doing. I remember the smirk the boy gave me as my face got hot and red. I begged my teacher to stop and he told me he would when I stopped. I remember him saying “Daniel has every right to feel welcome in this class and if you can’t do that for him, then I’ll do it even if makes you uncomfortable.” I felt so small. A few days later some boys came in to the class and handed the boy deodorant. I saw Daniel’s face and he was mortified. That was the day I became Daniel’s friend. I never again moved my chair away from him and I also never laughed so hard in science class as I did with him as my lab partner. He moved away a few years later and we’re friends on FB but he’s not a big social media person so we’re not as connected as we were in 8th grade.

    2. Colorado*

      This has been a heartbreaking post for me to read as well. Similar thing with a little boy who was teased in elementary all the way through high school. His family was poor by no fault of his own and he was relentlessly bullied. By high school it tapered off. I still feel sick to think about it and how I did nothing to stop it.

    3. ThatUnpopularGirl*

      I thin you shouldn’t make little of your own experiences as a victim of bullying just because others were bullied worse. They still affected you. They still hurt. Just because it wasn’t physical doesn’t mean it wasn’t bullying.

  106. Fresh Faced*

    Lord this brought back memories. I’m on the side of the woman that was bullied, having been bullied and been a bully myself. I have no idea the exact impact i had on the people I bullied (lots of behind back talk, but civil to their faces. I have no idea if they knew) but I would understand completely if they never wanted anything to do with me should we ever cross paths again. As for my bullies there are a couple I’ve forgiven, most of them are in the pretend I don’t recognize them in the street camp.

    However there are 2 specific people that I’d have to go nuclear and resign over in the above situation. Both harassed me in a “boys will be boys, they’re only doing this cause they like you” manner. If they showed up I’d have to resign as the most professional option. Because if they worked with me and at any point dismissed what they did as “not that bad”, joked about those times at all then I would physically fight them. Which would of course damage my career pretty badly.

    OP do not contact this woman. It will most likely come off as harassing behavior, especially as her involvement in this looks like it was meant to be anonymous. You don’t even know if she wants your apology, but what you do know is that she does not want you in her life. I’d keep it that way and just write this company off.

  107. CDM*

    OP, Alison and most of the commenters are reading this as a very personal situation, what did OP do to Rock Star, and can OP ever salvage enough reputation to land a job in TinyIndustry, and is Rock Star overreacting?

    Interestingly, I jumped right to a big picture interpretation of the situation, and I’m throwing it out here as a possible perspective.

    I read it as OP may or may not have done something awful to Rock Star, but Rock Star has clear memories of how OP treated multiple people in the past. Rock Star tells employer that OP has a history of nastiness and drama, with multiple people, that probably isn’t going to be a positive factor in a collaborative workplace.

    “I know you all are smart enough to decide not to bring this drama and nastiness into the office, but if you make the wrong decision, I’m going to have to seriously think about moving on.”

    I can think of one person in college who didn’t do anything to me personally (because he only targeted straight men), but I’d have a similar reaction to the possibility of him being hired into my workplace – thirty years later.

    It’s quite possible that Rock Star isn’t overreacting, isn’t taking it personally, isn’t holding a grudge, but is looking at the big picture of OP’s known interactions with other people.

    If so, trying to apologize to Rock Star, especially as OP is very hazy on what to apologize about, isn’t going to do anything for OP.

  108. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I haven’t had time to the read the comments, but OP, please, I beg you, as someone who was seriously bullied, do not reach out to this person to apologize. You will bring up a tremendous amount of pain that she has probably worked hard to put behind her and she will assume, no matter what you say, that you’re only doing it because you want to work for that company.

    1. Keli*

      That’s what I was thinking. I remember a while back when Adam Levine from Maroon 5 talked about his desire to apologize to his ex-girlfriends. A psychologist wrote a column stating why that isn’t a good idea: apologies tend to be more for the benefit of the offender rather than the victim. For the victim, it can dredge up all kinds of unpleasant memories.

  109. Alex*

    If you feel regret, apologize, but recognize that time doesn’t heal everything, and apologies don’t erase the past. The only thing you can do is be the best person you can moving forward and accept with grace the consequences for how you’ve behaved. Arguing that it isn’t fair that you are judged for your past actions doesn’t really show that you’ve grown and learned and changed, so I definitely wouldn’t go that route with this person or the company.

  110. Miss Elaine E.*

    Count me among the many who were bullied. If I were the “rock star,” a part of me would gleefully call in the OP for an interview just so I could see their face at the “gotcha sucka” moment. (I respect the rock star in this story for not doing so.)

    If the OP wanted to send a SINCERE apology, may I suggest he or she do so in a handwritten letter or nice card and send it through the person who gave the heads up? That way, the Rock Star won’t feel stalked or used. (As one who had been bullied (arm twice smashed in a locker, hair set on fire in history class), there are times in which I could get an apology. To the point that I’ve thought about reaching out to them through FB. But that’s a fantasy that I won’t ever pursue.)

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Never do things that require the other party to follow a script. You’re likely to wind up with the example upthread of the bully saying sincerely “Who are you? Chris? Oh, I vaguely remember you… we were friends, right? Good ol’ high school hijinks.”

  111. Maybe I'm Wrong*

    What really jumped out to me about this letter was that the OP is in their late 20’s and has a degree and two internships in this field. They don’t say what kind of degree — a BA or a BS, or an advanced degree. But the phrase “it took me some time to decide what I wanted to do with my life” makes me think it’s not an advanced degree, which means that the OP has a whole lot less practical experience than their former classmate.

    I’ve been a hiring manager, and I could easily see that that level of experience by one’s late 20’s — coupled with any kind of negative feedback from a known quantity — would mean that I wouldn’t make an offer.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Maybe I’m reading the letter wrong, but I didn’t get the impression the OP was applying for a job that was on par in title, responsibility, or pay as the former classmate. I thought it was definitely a more entry-level job but at the same company.

      1. Kfox (OP)*

        I finally finished my B.A at 26 and completed a three-month and six-month internship. I’ve been freelancing in an adjacent industry for about a year and a half. I know it took me longer than I should’ve to get where I’m at. The positions I’ve applied for have been entry-level. Neither would have required me to work directly with Rock Star, based on what I know of the organization.

        Rock Star graduated from college in three years, worked for a few years in a different adjacent field for two years, then has been doing this for the last six. She is in the same job category as people who’ve been there much longer.

    2. Emac*

      I don’t know if I’m reading your comment right – it sounds like you are saying it would be a mark against the OP that she only has a bachelor’s degree and internship experience by her late 20’s. I know it’s not really relevant, but that bothers me – not everyone goes directly from high school to finishing college in 4 years, and/or knows exactly what they want to do right away.

      1. Maybe I'm Wrong*

        Oh, I definitely didn’t mean that. That would be SUPER unkind. Not everyone can graduate college in three years and then move into exactly the field that they want to. I know that I didn’t!
        But if the OP was applying to an entry-level job, those can be easier to fill. Why rock the boat with someone that a “rock star” team member has bad feedback about? (Whether justified or not.)
        OP, I read your comments about what had happened in high school. That’s a tough break, but I think that Alison’s advice is good. For better or worse, move on to another company.

  112. De Minimis*

    I think I could probably work with some of those who used to bully or otherwise were jerks to me, so in that sense I could forgive. People usually change and mature.
    On the other hand, I know at least a couple of my former bullies have come to bad ends [mainly due to continuing to make poor choices after school] and each time I’ve heard the news, I’ve felt a sense of glee.

  113. DrAtos*

    Physical and emotional trauma never really goes away. Especially at an age when we are the most vulnerable. People go to prison for their crimes for a reason. If justice is served, those who have done wrong should face the consequences for their actions. Some may choose to change or be rehabilitated, but the pain never goes away for their victims. Those who have committed wrongs need to realize that they cannot go back and change the past. They can only move forward as better people who have learned a lesson and who will hopefully stop any injustices they encounter in the future. The OP should understand that s/he is paying for whatever pain that still affects this woman today. The OP needs to move on and perhaps at some point later when s/he is at another job or in another city, think about what s/he can do to repent regardless of whether he ever gets a job at this company. Maybe that takes the form of sending this woman an apology. Maybe it is doing volunteer or outreach to help children who are being bullied. Do something positive for the world. OP, whether your victim ever is made aware of your actions, this is also about your becoming a better person, owning up to your mistakes, and giving back in some way for the pain you have caused.

  114. Madame X*

    OP, As an exercise in self-reflection, you could write a letter of apology to your former classmate but not actually send it. Take the time to think long and hard about who you are as a person, how you behaved in high school and how you treated your classmate. Then move on to other companies and possibly broaden your job search to other similar positions that are outside of this field. There’s not much you can do about how this person views you because of how you mistreated them. The best thing to do would be to focus on future job prospects.

  115. Maxwell Edison*

    I’m getting negative nostalgia for grade school and high school and those fun frenemies (there’s a reason that any mean girls in my fiction are named Victoria or Stephanie). I’m going to watch Carrie for the billionth time tonight; that should be sufficiently cathartic.

  116. Anon For This*

    In middle school, I had a group of kids (and a teacher, oddly) who taunted me every single day. I’m a male. I was an awkward middle schooler who didn’t know how to talk to girls (as opposed to the awkward man who doesn’t know how to talk to women).

    One of the girls would slam my head or my hand in my locker any time she saw me using it. She stole my textbooks out of my bag and drew giant penises all over them.

    Ten years later, I was working for an event at work and her mother was in charge of the venue we were using. She said something along the lines of “Your name looks familiar, did you go to (school)?”

    When I said I did, she said, “You’ll obviously remember my daughter since she was the beautiful one.” I would have given anything to just tell her off right there, because as her parent, I’m pretty sure she’s the one responsible.

    Long story short, as many above have said, the scar of bullying doesn’t go away. You basically change a person forever.

  117. TotesMaGoats*

    I didn’t read all the other comments but I’m going to say you need to Elsa this and let it go.

    If you are late 20’s, whatever happened between you two was a decade ago. If she remembers it that strongly, enough to say something and threaten to quit, then you were probably more than “pretty mean”.

    An apology wouldn’t hurt if it was sincere. From a karma perspective, it’s good to be able to ask forgiveness even if she doesn’t give it. It certainly has shown you’ve grown but in her shoes, I wouldn’t want to work with you either. No matter how much you’ve grown as a person. You imprinted pretty hard with her.

  118. the.kat*

    What concerns me about this letter is the way this news spread. Was the acquaintance part of the team that hires people? If not, why does she know about the Rockstar’s blacklist of the OP’s candidacy? Being that this is a small, niche field, I’m afraid for the OP.

    Without going through my own bullying story and airing my own credentials, I can tell you that if one of my former bullies came to me and tried to get a job at my company, I would go to my manager pretty quickly. What I wouldn’t do, and maybe the Rockstar didn’t do this but it happened nonetheless, is let the news get out. It’s one thing to keep yourself safe from a bully, especially one that you have been personally hurt by. It’s another thing to spread the news in a small field that you’re blacklisting someone. I think I could live with the former, but the latter would feel like I was turning around and becoming a bully myself.

    So, my advice to the OP is to skip the apology for now. Do some thinking and think of specific things that you can apologize for. Sometime down the road, whether you’ve found a job or not, sending a letter to the Rockstar might be the best option. Acknowledge that you forgot about what you’d done, that you’re ashamed, and what you’re doing to make it right (teaching your children to do better, watching for bullying and stopping it where you can, etc.). Thank them for reminding you of a wrong that you needed to be called on and ask if there’s anything you can do to make it up. Don’t mention the job or the fact that you know about the blacklist.

  119. a different Vicki*

    It may not feel fair that you are losing an opportunity because of things you did when you were seventeen, but is it any fairer that you, rather than someone else, might have that opportunity because of things you did when you were seventeen? What you did when you were sixteen or seventeen almost certainly affected what college you got into (the grades you got at that age, your test scores, and your extracurricular activities are all things you did when you were seventeen), which is likely to be affecting your possible career now.

    Also, given that this is such a niche field, a lot of people would have to relocate if they wanted to work in that field. Try looking at it from that angle: you’re not being “punished” by having to move (say) from Chicago to New York or LA, any more than someone else who wants to get into that field is being punished by having to move from Providence or Tulsa to New York, Chicago, or LA.

  120. anon for this one*

    I was bullied by a mean girl in both junior high and high school. This was all in the days before Facebook and I was looking forward to showing her how fabulous I was at our 10 year high school reunion. At the reunion I found out that in the decade since we graduated; both of her parents were murdered, her childhood home burned to the ground, her fiancé died in a car accident and she almost died in it and she ended up delivering a stillborn baby, she had cancer and was finally in remission after having her foot amputated because of it, the lawyer who was supposed to be looking after the affairs of her parents stole every cent from the estate and because of all her legal and healthcare costs from the murder, the arson, the car accident and the cancer she went bankrupt and didn’t have a penny to her name. I went from looking forward to showing her what was up to feeling terrible because of everything that happened to her. It was enough to make me forgive and forget. I counted my blessings after that. I completely understand why the girl OP bullied feels the way she does though.

  121. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I pretty much would blackball 98% of my former bullies just like this. And anyone who was mean to my Pakistani-American best friend. She was often called a “terrorist” or physically manhandled- and the ironic thing is, her family had befriended and strongly politically backed the very pro-west, anti-terror politician Benazir Bhutto!

    Six months ago, I found one of my friend’s bullies on Facebook. He is in the National Guard but publicly posted very racist and Islamophobic things.

    I reported this to the Guard and his other current employer, and plastered him on one of those “expose racists” sites. And so he faced military discipline, lost his other job, and may never work again.

    I don’t mess around. And bullying, OP, has severe consequences.

    2. seejay*

      That’s… kind of just desserts. Wow.
      And I’m on the same page. I have very very very little compassion and empathy for active bullies. I can drum up a little bit for some that have outgrown it or ones that weren’t aware of how they were behaving in grade/highschool, or came from crappy home lives and were just acting out, but if they were bullies as teenagers and grow up to be really terrible adults? No. I have *zero* tolerance and empathy for that.

      I definitely high five you for your actions.

    3. Cedrus Libani*

      Good for you.

      I’ve forgiven the kids who bullied me in elementary school – I was super shy and visibly disabled, they were small children, it happens. But my best friend in high school was half-black, and let’s just say there is at least one racist prick out there who would get the “it’s him or me” card if he ever showed his smug face anywhere I have social capital.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I have no empathy for adult bullies so I’d say this guy got what he deserved.

  122. Advice Column Junkie*

    Hey, you! Yeah, you, former bully who now feels bad about things and would like to reach out to your victims to apologize and ask for forgiveness! Hi. Thanks for reading this.

    Forgive yourself, or not, on your own time. We don’t want to revisit the trauma, we don’t want to hear from you, and we sure as screaming hell do not owe you the emotional labor of forgiveness, reconciliation, or whatever it is you want. Don’t email us.

    Signed, the genderqueer, bisexual chick whose locker you taped a rubber schlong to because you think I wanted a dick.

    1. seejay*

      I’m sorry, but I just sprayed a mouthful of juice across my desk… not because of the bullying you underwent, but only because I read “rubber schlong” and it was *SO NOT WHAT I EXPECTED TO READ RIGHT NOW*.

      I am sorry for the bullying, but I am not sorry for giggling over the word, because I am genuinely a 12 year old boy at heart and words make me laugh.

  123. Health Insurance Nerd*

    My bully attempted to start a conversation with me at our 20 year HS reunion. I literally turned my back on her and walked away. Being called the “N” word in elementary school is something I have never gotten over, and regardless of what may have been going on in her life or home at that time, I’ve never stopped absolutely hating her guts.

  124. Kfox (OP)*

    I’ve tried to reply to several of you, but I suspect my comments are getting lost in moderation.

    Here’s what happened (at least, as I remember it): I had known this girl since elementary school. My family moved across the street from hers the summer after sophomore year. We started to hang out a lot, and soon she was referring to me as her best friend, even though I didn’t consider her mind. She was a little needy and a little socially awkward, and an overachiever, even back then. She was kind of exhausting to be around. I decided I didn’t want to hang out with her as much, and then a guy she liked asked me out. He and I started dating, and I stopped hanging out with Rock Star. Most of our mutual friends stopped hanging out with her as well. I found out years later that she spent the last two years in high school feeling very bitter and alone and blamed me for it.

    I don’t know if what I did was bullying, but I know she used the term “bully” to describe me, so I’m at least trying to be respectful of that. I will be the first to admit what I did at 17 wasn’t kind, but I didn’t find out she felt the way she did until we were all about to graduate from college. We ran into each other awkwardly in the Target parking lot. She got so flustered she left one of her bags behind, and I reached out to someone we’d both been friendly with to figure out what the deal was.

    1. Twirling Girl*

      That’s the bullying that’s preventing you from getting an interview? She was socially awkward and the cliques moved on?

      That’s not bullying. That’s not even mean. You didn’t ask the guy out; he asked you. Unless you forced other people to stop hanging with her, then there’s no bullying here.

      Move on, move up, and let it go.

      :-)

      1. LBK*

        High school emotions are definitely not that cut and dry. Feeling like a friend stole someone you liked is something even adults struggle with – I mean, it’s a plot point on pretty much every TV drama since the dawn of time. And again, remember that something that would be minor as an adult or seems small in retrospect can still have a lot of influence on you in your formative years. It’s not fair to just write something off because looking at it now, it’s not a big deal.

      2. sam*

        But look at that same story from rockstar’s perspective. Even with just the information that OP has given us, rockstar’s best friend (from her view) suddenly froze her out, appeared to have been the precipitating cause of pretty much all of her other friends freezing her out, leaving her completely socially isolated for two years, and as a bonus, OP rubbed extra salt in the wound by violating “girl code” and taking up with the guy that she knew rockstar had a crush on.

        This is, like, mean girl 101.

        Now – none of these things may have been what OP intended. But to rockstar, this was the effect/impact. I didn’t coin this phrase, and its origins are from another context, but it’s still useful here – “intent is not magic”.

          1. TrainerGirl*

            Umm, does the guy get any say on who he asks out? I guess it can be considered girl code violation to accept the date with the guy, but it’s not like OP could say, “Sorry, Rockstar likes you more, please go out with her.” The whole social isolation thing is bad, and from OP’s comments here, it seems like, with each comment, she’s trying to paint herself as less of the aggressor in this situation, so I think she’s in CYA mode now. But a lot of this sounds like high school girl drama/issues. Unless OP is leaving out a lot of details, I’m not sure I would call this bullying. IMO, it’s more self absorbed teenage a-hole behavior, which I’m sure most of us were guilty of at least once.

            2. LBK*

              I don’t think the “rule” says that you redirect him to the other girl, just that you reject the invite.

        2. paul*

          Except that you don’t actually owe people friendship, and people do get to choose not to be friends with someone without being smeared for it.

          Intent is not magic, but people change and grow apart too and it isn’t right or fair to harp on someone for that.

          1. LBK*

            That’s all well and good to say when you’re an adult, but emotions aren’t so easy when you’re a teenager. This is something people learn with the benefit of years of experience and building emotional maturity.

            The problem is that things that happened to you when you were in a place where you weren’t equipped to process them still hurt just as much once you realize in hindsight that maybe they were as bad; even if you can reflect on the situation now, that doesn’t change how you felt at the time.

            1. paul*

              It would take the person’s actions here from understandable to not cool for me.

              Blacklist someone that assaulted or was actively cruel to you? Yeah, I get that.

              Blacklist someone 10 years on because they stopped being friends? No. They don’t have an obligation to be your friend, so getting payback because they stopped being your friend isn’t cool–even if it hurt you.

              That doesn’t really change much for the OP’s options, but it would make me more sympathetic to them.

          2. sam*

            Absolutely. people get to choose who they associate with. People also have to recognize that there may be consequences to treating people like shit.

            Rockstar apparently also gets to make choices now that she’s the one with the social/professional connections and power.

            Who knows – maybe there will be negative consequences down the line for Rockstar as well – but she’s already willing to actually leave her job (a pretty negative consequence in and of itself) rather than work with OP.

          4. Stellaaaaa*

            People can’t force you into any kind of relationship that you don’t want to have, true. As a counterpoint, people don’t have to invite you into their worlds when you’ve decided it’s finally convenient for you.

      3. SeptemberGrrl*

        What you posted here doesn’t match your original letter which said:
        — I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl.
        – something I said when I was 17.

        What you just posted doesn’t mention being awful to her or mention saying anything bad to her back then. It all sounds much more benign. It’s confusing.

        Regardless, from a work perspective though, I think the answer as to whether you should approach her is “No”. She doesn’t want to work with you and doesn’t want you at her company. If you connect with her now, she will know it is only because you want a job and that’s not going to work out well for you. If you really want to give it a shot, you might as well, you can’t make things worse for yourself, though contacting her might upset her.

        1. Kfox (OP)*

          I know I probably said things behind her back that set the tone for how other people treated her. I mostly cared about getting what I wanted, which was for people to hang out at my house on the weekend and not hers — and that I got. I know it got back to her that I’d told people I didn’t want to be friends with her anymore. (I know I didn’t say it that nicely. I’m sure it was, “Ugh, Rock Star is SO annoying! Why does she follow us around everywhere?”)

          1. SeptemberGrrl*

            If you can put this aside for a few months and let there be some distance between when you applied for the job and you reaching out to her, that might be your best shot.

            If you put yourself in her shoes, she’s got a good thing going at work, doing really well, and the absolute last thing she would want is for the person she sees as ruining high school for her to enter that environment and fuck that up for her too – obviously I don’t know but my guess is that her not wanting you to work there is far less about punishing you, and much more about “Oh god not again”.

            You may look at her and see her as someone who has all the power: she’s doing really well career-wise and is well-respected and valued, while you are just starting out. But she is likely looking at you as the powerful one, who was able get people to stop hanging out with her and turn on her and she’s afraid you will do the same thing at work as well. She doesn’t trust you and based on your history, that is a very reasonable view. (all speculation on my part of course as to what she is thinking). She’s trying to protect herself, not punish you. That’s my take, FWIW.

          2. seejay*

            Soooooo…. let me break this down for you.

            Mean Girls 101. You might not have shoved her into a locker, threw things at her, made fun of her to her face, but you pretty much socially ostracized her from her entire friends group. And you did it all behind her back and it quite likely got back to her.

            For a 17 year old girl that’s already socially awkward? Yeah, that’s pretty damaging. On the bullying scale of 1 to 10, it’s pretty mild compared to some of the other examples listed here, but bullying shouldn’t be assessed from the actions themselves but from how the victim perceives them and the damage done. Some people might be able to take the social ostracization better than others. It sounds like Rockstar took the blow to her self-esteem a lot harder than some people would have.

            I’d say you’re probably going to have to write this whole thing off and move on.

            1. paul*

              what are the limits to that statement? I’m always a little bit sketched out by the idea that perceptions are all that matters when evaluating actions; it seems too unpredictable and random to me. What really bothers one person may not phase another and vice versa.

              1. DMD*

                As an aside note, the law usually puts “reasonableness” as a factor in perception (such as in sexual harassment). It’s not just the perception of the victim that counts, but that perception has to be reasonable, as well (for example, a “reasonable person” would be offended).

              2. seejay*

                I can’t tell you what the limits are. They’re entirely personal to each person. Being ostracized from a group of friends may not bother one person but may drive another teenager to the point of suicide. Maybe that group of friends was the *only* social group they had that they used to escape a dysfunctional family life and without it, they now had nowhere else to go except hang around at home and listen to the fighting. When I was in my mid to late teens, I had several completely separate groups of friends that I didn’t cross the beams with so when one of them started behaving badly, I could fall back on the other one until the other settled down… it was my protective shield that I learned to put up because of being ostracized in grade school and having only one single group of friends cause when that went pear-shaped, I had no one. But not everyone can do that.

                Every scenario/person is going to be different. What’s damaging to one person can be shrugged off by another, entirely dependent on the background, support network, emotional stability, and a host of other mitigating factors that we can’t even begin to speculate about. I think I’m pretty confident in saying though, based on the OPs telling of her actions and Rockstar’s response, Rockstar took the ostracization from the social group very badly, probably a pretty big blow to her self-esteem, and wants to protect herself mentally and emotionally from it.

                We could be entirely wrong and she might be a big fat butthead who’s being vindictive about it, but the keyword of “she was a bully to me in the past” sounds more like a victim trying to protect herself than a vindictive meanie. Whether you or I or the pope himself perceives her feelings as justified or not, what matters is that she feels the damage done was enough to put this boundary up and the OP needs to respect that.

                1. Aveline*

                  Studies show cutting off friend groups is more harmful to girls than physical hazing

                  NPR had a recent segment that talked about how boys beat on the weakling, but keep them in the group but girls ostracize. The latter tends to do more long term damage

              3. Stellaaaaa*

                OP blatantly told the friend group not to hang out with this other girl anymore. That actually is a category of bullying.

                1. -Anonymous For This Post-*

                  This is absolutely Girl Bullying. Which, for the record, typically looks very different from Boy Bullying, but is no less harmful or scarring!

              4. Temperance*

                FWIW, I think that the OP’s behavior is a textbook description of the kind of bullying that is common in high school girls. She ousted Rock Star from their social group, whether consciously or not.

                1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  1000% agreed. This is textbook bullying, and it’s one of the cruelest (non-physical, but often more damaging) forms of bullying among teenage girls. I get that OP may not have reflected on what she was doing at the time, but she went beyond extricating herself from a friendship and encouraged others to abandon Rock Star, too. It may have been thoughtless and selfish and non-malicious, but the effect is pretty bad. I still don’t think Rock Star’s reaction is disproportionate.

            2. Aveline*

              Physical bullying is NOT per se worse than severing some one else’s connections

              I’ve read studies that suggest the type of action OP too is worse than 1-2 shoves in a locker in terms of the impact on the victim

          3. Recovering Adjunct*

            Yeah, I can imagine not wanting to have they dynamic brought to work. I know time has passed but I would be very stressed out by this. Exclusion is a form of bullying and in a highly collaborative workplace, your history together could honestly be a serious problem. My question to you is, how would you see yourself working with her? What are you like in the workplace? How would you be a good team player given your history? While ignoring it and just pushing on may be comfortable for you, it’s something she can’t even entertain.

          4. SeptemberGrrl*

            Ugh this site ate my comment, I have so much trouble on here. Can’t re-type it all but the primary thing I wanted to say was, everyone is looking at this as she’s punishing you and being vindictive. I don’t see it that way. Based on your descriptions, I think she’s truly trying to protest herself. Look at it from her POV.

            She has a good job, where she is well-respected, high-achieving and valued. The last thing she would want would to have someone come in and mess that up. To her, you’re the person who ruined high school by turning everyone against her. She doesn’t want you coming in and doing the same thing at work. She doesn’t trust you and based on your history together, that’s very reasonable.

            You see her as having all the power now, career-wise; she thinks of you as the person who had enough power to make her high school life miserable. She doesn’t want to work with you and that’s that.

            If you could wait a few months and email her, that would be a better shot than doing it now when it is so clearly connected to the job you wanted. And ideally – as someone else posted – do that after you have gotten a job so it isn’t nakedly self-serving. But I’d put it on the back burner for now.

            1. Just Another Techie*

              Let’s take it even more charitably towards OP. Let’s say with ten years experience and a position where she’s respected and well-established, Rock Star is able to realize OP was never malicious, but was just another awkward teenager who didn’t really understand how to communicate or set boundaries yet. It was _still_ a horribly painful time in Rock Star’s life. Seeing OP every day would be a reminder of when she had no friends and no one wanted to be around her and she hadn’t figured out how to people yet. That emotional strain could unsettle her psychologically and impact her work performance. It might put at risk everything she’s worked so hard to build. Why on earth would she acquiesce to that if she has other options?

              1. Aveline*

                Exactly.

                Let’s say I was raped and found out my rapist was in mind altering drugs at the time and thus was not responsible.

                Still doesn’t mean it would not be fair to ask me to work w them

                1. Alex*

                  Jesus, can we please not compare this situation to rape. Seriously uncool and trivializing. Just no.

            2. Recovering Adjunct*

              This exactly. I didn’t have an easy time social when I was in school (in fact, I dropped out of high school due to stuff like this) and the bullying that damaged me most wasn’t the physical stuff, it was the social stuff, the exclusion, the knowledge people weren’t content to just leave me alone, they had to talk about me behind my back too. There’s no way I would welcome that dynamic at my workplace.

          5. Lilo*

            Yeah, look into know it’s hard to look back on shitty things you did, but you totally buried important details in that post. *saying stuff behind her back to others and setting the tone for others*. You knew what you were doing, too. You participated in social isolation. I had someone far less successfully try to do this to me when I was a senior and it was cruel and painful.

            If you even want a chance at amends with her you have to own your behavior and stop minimizing.

          6. Creag an Tuire*

            So you found her so “annoying” that you weren’t content to end your friendship, but started a whisper campaign behind her back to turn everyone else in your circle against her too?

            Well, I’m not sure if Rock Star’s behavior is just, but I certainly know where she learned it from.

          7. AMG*

            Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Probably should have posted that at the top. You aren’t being respectful of her feelings by acknowledging that she calls you a bully–you’re admitting to a fact.

          8. -Anonymous For This Post-*

            Yes, you were a bully at age 17 – in fact, you were a totally classic Mean Girl Bully.

            If I were Rock Star, I wouldn’t trust that you’d changed into a totally different person. My experience is that people who start whisper campaigns and decide to socially ostracize or shun others for petty reasons (“awkward”, “overachiever”) don’t really alter their patterns as they age unless forced to do so.

            It sounds like she was very professional and polite about her concerns, which sounds about right for someone who has risen that far that fast. Be grateful that’s all she said, leave her alone, and you might honestly want to start looking at different career paths. There’s a greater than zero chance that you’re not going to get any traction in this industry, at least not in this particular city.

            1. MegaAnon*

              This. This is classic, classic bullying of the most insidious kind because it leaves no physical bruises all mental.
              OP leave her alone. Do not contact her. You will not be hired by that company. She has NOT blacklisted you. She has set her boundaries with her employer, respectfully and clearly, and they respect them. You respect them too.

              The woman abandoned her groceries to avoid her and OP didn’t try to follow-up with her then. I guarantee she remembers that incident. If OP tries to follow up now after she has lost something she wanted it will just look worse for her.

          9. Amy*

            So: When I was in middle school, I had a friend like this. She’d moved into the area recently, and became friends with a couple of my close friends. At first we got along fine (as far as I knew). But after a while, I noticed she kept pulling them away from me–like, literally, ‘___ come over here!’ until they went, dirty looks at me if I came too. And she started spreading rumors about me around the school–stupid little things, but enough that the other kids picked up on it. In retrospect, I’m pretty sure she felt like kicking me out of the group was her ticket to being ‘in’, and so was trying to convince them to drop me.

            And it kept escalating from there, though she didn’t really do anything else personally as far as I know. Other kids started spreading rumors too, because obviously I was a pretty easy target, since I was already being targeted with no real consequences. By the end of 6th grade, almost no one in school would even talk to me. They’d blatantly ignore me even if we were paired up in class or something. I was pretty severely ostracized.

            The funny part is, the few exceptions were those good friends I’d already had–the ones the original bully girl was also making friends with. So she didn’t even really succeed at getting what she wanted, and I don’t think she ever knew how bad the bullying she kicked off got for me. But the effects of what she did, and what she inspired, lingered for literally years. I still catch myself falling back into that “No one really likes you, no one wants to hear you talk, you’re not worth acknowledging” mindset on occasion, even though I’m a grown adult now who has amazing friends and family and is pretty much kicking ass at life.

            If that girl applied for a job at my current workplace, and my boss asked what I thought about working with her (and I thought what I said would have an impact), I’d probably tell them that we have some bad history and her being around would hurt my productivity and focus. And it would be true. I don’t really bear a grudge against her anymore–like I said, I don’t think she ever realized the full extent of what she did, much less intended it–but I also couldn’t work smoothly with her. I’d always be looking over my shoulder for her drama-mongering and for signs of her looking to push me out again.

            I guess my point is, even minor bullying isn’t necessarily minor in impact. And ostracizing a ‘friend’ and spreading rumors around with the intent of getting others to also cut her out? That’s definitely bullying.

          10. KHB*

            Reading between the lines a little bit here based on my experience with how these things go, you effectively gave your mutual friends an ultimatum. Whether you said it in so many words or not, what they heard was “You can be RockStar’s friend or you can be mine, but not both.” You weren’t actively trying to take away RockStar’s friends – you were just trying to keep your friends for yourself. And they all chose you. As, perhaps, you knew they would.

            Now, RockStar is telling her employer, “You can have Kfox as an employee or you can have me, but not both.” She’s not actively trying to screw up your career – she’s just trying to keep a good job situation for herself. And the employer chose her. As, perhaps, she knew they would.

          11. Not So NewReader*

            “Ugh, Rock Star is SO annoying! Why does she follow us around everywhere?”

            If you think that is not a big deal, you need to rethink that.

      4. Not That Simple.*

        Let’s just be aware of the fact that this is OP’s characterisation of her own behaviour. I very, very much doubt that this is all that happened. I would also suggest that OP google Complex PTSD to understand why this woman doesn’t want to work with her and was so flustered she *left her shopping behind*.

    2. Jaguar*

      So do you consider that bullying? I wouldn’t describe it as such, but I can see where she would. It’s a failure of loyalty in a friendship.

      If you don’t consider it bullying, you shouldn’t apologize for bullying her. Leaving aside the moral implications of apologizing for something falsely, if she sincerely believes she was bullied, she would be looking for a sincere apology (if she would be receptive to anything at all). You could still write an “I’m sorry I hurt you / still consider you a friend” sort of thing, if that would be accurate.

      1. Aveline*

        It’s considered bullying by the experts

        Boys engage in physical torture

        Girls shame and cut off relationships

    3. Christian Troy*

      Oh wow. I would not personally consider that bullying nor something worth thinking about nearing 30. Whatever her reasons for still giving mental real estate to that experience are her reasons so it sounds like it’s best to focus on employment elsewhere.

      1. Lurker*

        This is actually textbook relational aggression, which is just as damaging as more physically forms of bullying.

    4. Aurion*

      The dating thing is a non-issue; you can’t call dibs on people. However, you mentioned that the mutual friends stopped spending time with her; I think that might be the bullying in her mind if she believes that you turned the mutual friends against her.

      Regardless, if she’s holding onto this after ten years (rightly or wrongly), she feels pretty strongly about you and you’re probably better off focusing your energies elsewhere, at least for now.

      1. Just Another Techie*

        Yeah. Social ostracization is really hard on people. It’s why solitary confinement is considered torture by the UN and why in biblical times it was the worst punishment you could mete out on an unrepentant sinner. Being frozen out by not just one person but your entire social group? Ouch. I really feel for Rock Star now.

        1. paul*

          It’s hard on people (speaking as someone without a lot of friends back then myself). But people don’t owe a moral obligation to be friends with y ou either.

          I feel for people that don’t have friends in their peer group because I was one as a kid, but at the same time, you can’t just walk up and demand people be friends with you either.

          1. Just Another Techie*

            There’s a difference between “enh not really feeling this friendship” and convincing an entire social group into shunning a person. The first can be painful but isn’t anyone’s fault. The second is recognized as an act of bullying. It’s not clear to me from what OP wrote whether it fell in the former or latter category.

            1. Aurion*

              As a pretty socially isolated person, then and now, “eh, not really feeling this friendship” can and does often turn into slowly edging a person out and no malicious “let’s ruin her life” is required. It’s just a matter of “oh, Rockstar isn’t that fun to be around, so I won’t add her to the movie invite this weekend”, repeat a couple of times, and there you go. Nobody, not even teenagers, is obligated to be friends with people they don’t want to be friends with.

              Assuming OP is reporting accurately, I don’t think Rockstar has much moral high ground. Of course, Rockstar isn’t the one writing in and the advice to OP remains the same.

              1. Just Another Techie*

                Enh. Even if OP didn’t intentionally choose to ostracize RockStar, RockStar ended up ostracized. I imagine it hurt quite a lot. And now Rock Star is in a position where she can put those painful memories behind her and never have to think about them again. As I said down thread, this isn’t about a cosmic Judge Judy deciding OP was a villian and deserves to be punished. It’s about Rock Star not wanting a particular relationship in her life and having the social and political capital to make it happen.

                If no on is owed friendship, as you and Paul have correctly pointed out, neither is anyone owed a job at any given employer or even in any given industry.

                1. N*

                  Yes! Isn’t it kind of ironic that Rock Star was excluded in high school by OP, and now that OP perceives that she is being excluded by Rock Star, she suddenly doesn’t think it’s at all fair?

                2. paul*

                  There’s a gap between not wanting to hang out with people for fun and sabotaging their job search. I wouldn’t choose to be friends with…really, most of the people I’ve ever worked with. I politely excuse myself from a lot of social events with coworkers for pretty much that exact reason; I’d still never hurt their job search over it, and I wouldn’t expect them to do the same.

                3. Just Another Techie*

                  Right? No one is owed anything! We are all free agents in a perfect libertarian utopia! Except when I want something then the whole world must be scrupulously fair to me and give me every benefit of every doubt.

                4. Just Another Techie*

                  It’s not “sabotage” if the Rock Star really would quit if OP was hired. Rock Star has every right to decide not to work in a place where OP is working. And Mangement has every right to take that information into consideration. “Sabotage” would imply to me dishonesty or going out of your way to blackball the person from every possible employer. It’s not sabotage to honestly say “I would have difficulty working with this person and would in fact consider my other employment options if I had to see so-and-so every day.” What are you suggesting? That Rock Star should suck it up and accept being reminded of a miserable time in her life every day, and all the psychological and emotional harm that would accompany that? Why?

                5. AW*

                  paul, she isn’t sabotaging the OP’s job search. If she were she’d be spreading it around town that the OP is a bully. That’s not what happened. The only thing she’s said is that she can’t work with the OP and that is an OK thing to tell your boss.

                  Heck, I’d think any manager would want to know that this could potentially be a huge problem ahead of time.

                6. Aurion*

                  I agree, OP isn’t owed a job. I don’t think a job opportunity is on the same level as high school drama (which wasn’t even that dramatic) and they shouldn’t carry the same “weight”, and I’m someone who has been Rockstar in social status. All that being said, Rockstar has every right to spend her political capital as she sees fit, and if that’s not objectively “fair” to the OP, well, life isn’t fair.

                  But with this additional information, I admit to feeling a lot more sympathy for OP than I did at the beginning.

            2. -Anonymous For This Post-*

              “I know I probably said things behind her back that set the tone for how other people treated her. I mostly cared about getting what I wanted, which was for people to hang out at my house on the weekend and not hers — and that I got. I know it got back to her that I’d told people I didn’t want to be friends with her anymore. (I know I didn’t say it that nicely. I’m sure it was, “Ugh, Rock Star is SO annoying! Why does she follow us around everywhere?”)”

              Pretty clear. OP was, in fact, a bully.

          2. designbot*

            no, you don’t have a moral obligation to be friends with any particular person.
            But the flipside of that is, no particular person or company has an obligation to hire you.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              This. And their reasons don’t need to be exemplary vs petty, they just need to be their reasons. As with any other number of work requirements employees and employers have.

              1. designbot*

                Right. I mean, we frequent a website that talks about how to word things to give off the best impression of yourself. How an objective makes you seem inexperienced or dated. Those are actual reasons that people don’t get hired. This is at least as bad as the rest of the faux pas we obsess over here.

        2. Kfox (OP)*

          I’m really, really trying to be self-reflective here. I’m sure I did make comments like, “Ugh, Rock Star. She’s SO annoying. Let’s not invite her.” I know my mom asked her mom (we were neighbors) if she was having a graduation party our senior year, and Rock Star’s mom said, “Rock Star doesn’t want one because she doesn’t think anyone will come.”

          I cringe when I hear that now because, well, they probably wouldn’t have.

          1. Temperance*

            It’s good that you can be self-reflective, I guess … but you honestly don’t see this as a form of bullying? Even if you didn’t directly insult or attack her, you turned others against her and froze her out of the group. Maybe you don’t see it this way, but you know that you a.) didn’t want to hang with her, b.) you wanted people at your house instead of hers (so she wouldn’t be invited), and c.) that you insulted her.

            1. Lady Andthetramp*

              I have never commented before just lurked, but I have to add…and OP you did ALL of this while living across the street from her. So, by your own account she not only got frozen out, but then got to watch for the next 2 years as you went on dates with the guy she liked, hung out with the friends that helped ostracize her, presumably had a pretty nice social life complete with a graduation party that I assume you didn’t invite her to. You need to write this one off, no matter how blameless you hold yourself in this situation. She’s not going to get over it.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            I am almost crying reading what you did here.

            Please read up on bullying. Please learn what types of actions/words are considered bullying.

          4. Snowe*

            I don’t think you understand how painful and terrifying social ostracism can be. Rock Star had to go to school every day with you. She couldn’t even get away at home; she had to see her old friends show up across the street but never at her house. She probably felt so awful and unloveable and freakish.

            Something similar happened to my sister in middle school; a popular girl decided that she was annoying and made an effort to isolate her from all her friends. She started making herself throw up in the mornings so she would be “sick” and not have to go to school. This bloomed into an eating disorder that has had repercussions for . The bullying was not solely responsible for her issues, but it definitely had an impact.

            If I had to guess, she spoke up not out of spite but to protect her own mental health. She’s worked hard to get where she is, and why risk letting you turn everyone against her again?

        3. Falling Diphthong*

          I’ve read that it’s a punishment in every society, and haven’t run into counter examples.

            1. Aveline*

              It is considered bullying in the US as well

              Bullying can be physical, mental sl(e.g. Shaming), or ostracism

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yes. It doesn’t matter if 10 years later her emotions are the correct or incorrect emotions, or were at the time. It matters that she has them.

        And that coincidentally, while OP was deciding to break into this niche local field, she was becoming a high-ranking valued employee at a top local company in this field. You need to look at other companies, minimum. Other cities, or other jobs, possibly.

    5. Chriama*

      I know this is tough for you. I don’t necessarily agree with all the comments basically implying that you got what you deserved. I think that bullying is very subjective. There are people who take everything you do in a negative light and victimize themselves. There are people who go out of their way to be cruel to others and may or may not recognize the impact they have. Most situations are somewhere in between. Truth is multifaceted, so I think it’s possible that both of your viewpoints are accurate.

      However, I do think that Alison’s advice is spot-on. Even if a panel of object third party observers would swear that what you did was not bullying, she is a known quantity at this business and she doesn’t want to work with you. Nothing you say or do will get them to give you a chance and risking losing their rockstar. Apologizing to her will look self-serving (and to be fair, it is self-serving. You previously knew how she felt and didn’t reach out to her. Now that you want something from her you’re ready to apologize?) But the bigger deal is that it isn’t likely to get her to retract her threat of resignation. So you can apologize to her for the sake of ‘karma’, hoping that in the future if you guys meet she won’t be so hostile to you. But in the near term you’re unfortunately stuck where you are.

      1. Treecat*

        Yes. This:

        “she is a known quantity at this business and she doesn’t want to work with you”

        is the only thing that matters. Rock Star is the Rock Star and doesn’t want to work with the OP. There are plenty of people I don’t want to work with for a huge variety of reasons–everything from bad personal experiences to just finding them irritating in the context of “8 hours/day in the same space AUGH” and if I ever happen to be in a position where I can spare myself the necessity of dealing with one of those people in my workplace I would do it in a heartbeat. Life is too short to spend 5 out of 7 days per week around people you can’t stand.

        1. Kowalski! Options!*

          And even with people who you *can* stand! I have people in my life who I appreciate and are great friends, but a significant percentage of them would not make great co-workers. And they’re great people!

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          Seconding this sentiment. Some people will not want to work with you. The reasons may be well-founded or ridiculous; they don’t care. If they have the power to easily not work with you, they will use it, and there’s no point arguing about the fairness of the universe.

    7. N*

      “She was a little needy and a little socially awkward, and an overachiever, even back then. She was kind of exhausting to be around. I decided I didn’t want to hang out with her as much, and then a guy she liked asked me out. He and I started dating, and I stopped hanging out with Rock Star.”

      Even if the first two sentences are true, it could be pretty rude if you verbalized those things to others and Rock Star found out about it second hand. Also, if she considered you to be a friend and you started to date someone she had a crush on (and you mentioned any of what you said here to said person) it could feel pretty mean. Your reactions sound fairly normal in the context of teenagerdom, but I’ve been in Rock Star’s place and I certainly did not feel good about it. I had friends who similarly stopped spending time with me because I was awkward and needy (turned out to be crippling anxiety and depression). Obviously they were under no obligation to be my friends when I was, admittedly, not the best person to be around, but they told the other kids at school that I was “emotional” and “weird” and that led to even more bullying because they didn’t get why I was “taking it so seriously” or why I had to “be so annoying about everything.” Being snubbed by a friend who then went on to date someone I had a crush on, where they both talked about how “weird” I was did not make things better.

      I think you should probably let this one go and just move on.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is exactly what I was thinking and I would like to add:

        OP, she could not get away from you. You lived across the street from her. You were there 24/7/365. There was no where she could go to get away from your scorn and ridicule.

        And you were telling people how she was needy/awkward/annoying. You encouraged people not to be friendly with her and apparently for whatever reason people followed your advice. Lord knows what those people did to her that you don’t know about. You were the catalyst for whatever happened here, you egged them on. This is how group bullying works, OP. This is why some kids commit suicide or spend years in counseling.

        I went to school and had people in my neighborhood who did very similar things. They dominated my life for too long. While time has been kind to me, I have absolutely NO desire to be around these people ever again. Please just leave her alone. If you see her in public give her space, each and every time.

        I believe I have seen discussions here, but I know I have seen comments somewhere, the people who are the super stars get to call the shots. That is how it goes in life. This is normal, sure it may be unfair, but it’s still how life goes.

        She does not trust you based on years and years of experiences with you. You don’t seem to understand the life long damage that actions like this can cause for some people. She is right to stay away from you, please do the same for her.

        I’ll restate my suggestion from above. Please read and learn about bullying.

        1. Not That Simple.*

          “for whatever reason people followed your advice”

          Probably because they didn’t also want to be excluded from the friendship group.

        2. N*

          One last thought on this: I mentioned it earlier in the comments, but your reputation is your responsibility. If I were a hiring manager, and a trusted employee told me that she knew one of the job candidates and they had engaged in any sort of clique-ish behavior in the past, it might be a red flag for me. I wouldn’t want to hire someone who might start office drama or who would exclude certain members of my staff, and I CERTAINLY wouldn’t want to lose a Rock Star employee over it. Time to just cut your losses and move on.

    8. GiantPanda*

      It can be very hard to estimate how your actions and words got across. People react differently.
      I was bullied very mildly in school. Just a few cutting remarks and no real friends, nothing worse. I’m sure none of my former classmates ever thought of themselves as bullies. Still… it’s been 30 years and I haven’t been to a single class reunion. There is one girl I’d absolutely not want to work with, even today.
      Maybe from a neutral pov that’s an overreaction. For me it’s not.

    9. DrAtos*

      What happened seems more like a personal conflict than bullying. Even still, she has the right to feel the way she does. I have deleted toxic ex-friends from social media for similar reasons because the feelings of pain and betrayal were not worth keeping them in my life in any way whatsoever. And yes, as petty as this sounds, I would absolutely not want to work with these people and would explain to a supervisor that their being in the same office with me would negatively affect my work performance, if I had the power and sway to prevent them from getting a job with my employer. At that age especially, a crush can be magnified 100x, and rejection can hurt badly for someone already aware that she is awkward and unpopular. On top of her perception that you stole her crush, you and some mutual friends stopped hanging out with her which probably compounded her feelings of betrayal and abandonment. Regardless of her personality flaws, she continues to be an overachiever who has unfortunately excelled in your job field. You and your career would be better off elsewhere rather than working and possibly competing with someone who will hold sour grapes about what happened during high school for the rest of her life. It would not surprise me in the least if she tried to sabotage you at every turn if you were at that company. Move on and find a job at another company, maybe even in another city if possible, far away from this woman so that she cannot negatively affect your career advancement.

      1. designbot*

        It also wouldn’t surprise me if Rockstar were worried that OP would try to sabotage her if she were hired. Wouldn’t be the first time.

        1. DrAtos*

          Very true. If OP could betray Rockstar by going out with her crush and turning their group of friends against her, it is very possible that Rockstar would expect OP to also ruin her career and turn her co-workers against her. Why would she possibly want to risk everything she has worked for on a high school frenemy?

    10. Jessica*

      So, you never really considered her a good friend, and you did some shitty high school things to get her to go away because she was annoying.

      Wish granted.

      This is like the plot of “13 going on 30” except you don’t get a do-over.

    11. Anon16*

      I was dumped by my two best friends in middle school, and as a consequence the entire friend group stopped hanging out with me. I was alone and isolated for the rest of the year.

      I’m 25 now and it still has an impact on me. At the time, my mom had encouraged me to “explore” how I may’ve caused this to happen. It’s not necessarily what they did that caused me to be deeply affected, or how my mom handled it, but it’s the cascading effects it had on me later on in life. I still struggle with deep-seated self esteem issues and I still assume if someone is mean to me, I somehow caused it to happen. These types of things can have long-lasting affects on people.

      I’m also tired of the idea that girls dumping their friends is normal and just part of “growing up”. While no one is obligated to be friends with you, they’re obligated to do it kindly and recognize that you may be hurt by that decision. It also normalizes this behavior so women don’t communicate with each other and learn how to express their their feelings in a normal healthy way. 13 year olds and 17 year olds are perfectly capable of communicating with one another, but adults haven’t taught them.

      It’s possible Rock Star still working through the affects of what happened when she was young. I don’t like extrapolating based on a small amount of information, but there’s a good chance it influences who she is today. If she’s anything like me, she may not think about it from day-to-day, but it may have become part of her and the building blocks for who she is as a human being. It can take years to undo what happened in a single year.

      Anyway, I ask kindness and to not be so quick to assume high school meanness is a part of life. Sorry for the long vent. I’ve been thinking about these things lately.

      1. Observer*

        I’m also tired of the idea that girls dumping their friends is normal and just part of “growing up”. While no one is obligated to be friends with you, they’re obligated to do it kindly and recognize that you may be hurt by that decision.
        ———————————————————————————-

        Thanks so much for saying this!

        Being mean is not just “part of growing up.” If this is “normal” behavior at 17, then we’re doing a very bad job of raising kids. It is most definitely NOT inherently normal.

    12. Thinking Outside the Boss*

      First of all, thank you for the clarification. I missed these clarifying comments when you posted them. And let’s just put aside the issue of whether or not you bullied Rock Star. Based on my own experience, I’m assuming that Rock Star isn’t a supervisor, manager, or VP at her company. So even if you didn’t bully her, she’s probably afraid that her talents will be passed over by her managers and you could be put in a position of power over her, just like in high school.

      I’m projecting from my professional life, but a similar thing happened to me with someone who I was really close to and who I was very fond of.

      17 years ago I was working in a different part of my state where I was the Rock Star and my coworker was definitely the Not Star. But she was a charming and wonderful coworker, and I adored being her colleague. Then 3 years later they made her my boss. And she was really insecure with being a supervisor. She made my life a living hell. For every success I had, she would try to take credit for it because she was afraid I would take her job. For every failure I had, she would scream it from the roof tops because she was afraid I would take her job. It got so bad that after 2 years with her as my boss, I said forget it, I found a new opportunity in a new field across the state, and left.

      Not Star knew what I left to do and knew where I was. And I’m still at the same agency today. After I had been here a few years, Not Star relocated to my area and started hinting around that she may want to work at my agency. No way in hell, I told myself! I will leave again! (with a pointy finger to the sky even!!) And a lot of that fear came from the fact that I wasn’t a supervisor, manager, etc., and I had no way to stop what had happened to me before, and if she worked her, I was afraid the same thing would happen again.

      Not Star ended up going somewhere else, and that fear I had ended when I became a supervisor and then a manager, when I had some say about who would work in my agency. Now I would care less if Not Star showed up. It doesn’t bother me now. But it really bothered me then.

      Things may change for you in time, but not today.

    13. Banana Sandwich*

      Sounds like normal kid stuff to me that does not rise to the level of “bully”

      But, since shes in the position of power with this company, her word will carry more weight most likely.

    14. The data don't lie*

      First you said you decided you didn’t want to be her friend anymore AFTER you starting dating the guy you both liked because it was awkward and now you are saying you decided you didn’t want to be her friend BEFORE the guy asked you out, for unrelated reasons. It sounds like you really don’t remember what happened at all, which means you may have been way more of a jerk than you remember too.

    15. Ann Furthermore*

      Hey Kfox,

      First of all, I commend you for coming here to post in the comments, and reading through the rest to get viewpoints from the other side. I think an apology would be beneficial, if, as Alison said, it’s genuine and coming from the heart, and not done in hopes of Rock Star changing her mind and helping you get a job with her company.

      I think part of what makes bullying so tricky, and so hard to address, is that in my mind, there is a difference between bullying – actively picking on someone and making them miserable – and being thoughtlessly unkind, which all kids are at one point or another, but there’s no line in the sand as to what that difference is. My 8 year old daughter has come home from school upset a couple of times, saying that she had a bad day because people were “bullying” her. When she’s told me what happened, in my mind, it didn’t rise to the level of bullying. A kid being a jerk, or kind of mean, for sure, and I told her that when things like that happen to call out the other kid and say, “Hey, that wasn’t very nice. Why did you do that?” or, “You know, you’re not being very nice. I’m going to go play with someone else.” Then a few weeks ago she came home crying because she’d been hanging out with a couple of older boys up the street who all of a sudden told her they didn’t want to be friends with her anymore because she “embarrassed” them, but then wouldn’t tell her why. That’s closer to the definition of bullying in my opinion. I told her that sometimes older kids are not very nice to younger kids, which is really crappy, but that’s just how it is, and that kids who would say something like that to her are not kids she wants to be friends with anyway. And I told her that if they come around again, wanting to play with her, that she should tell them “no thanks,” because she has lots of other nice friends who she has fun playing with. I don’t know if that was the right thing to tell her, but it’s all I could come up with. The parents of one of those jerks are very, very religious, so when I saw him outside a few days later, the mama bear in me wanted to roll down my car window and ask, “Picking on a little girl who’s younger than you and making her cry? Did you learn that at church, you little sh*t?” But of course I didn’t. And, I need to tell her to remember how that felt if one of the littler kids in the neighborhood wants to play with her if her first inclination is to dismiss them (which she doesn’t do, their parents always tell me she’s super sweet to them, but as she gets older she’ll want to spend time with kids her own age), and also to remember how nice our neighbor’s teenage daughter is to her, how she loves having a “big kid” friend, and that she can be that “big kid” friend to someone younger than she is.

      I think the most constructive thing you can do at this point is to remember this, and then “pay it forward” by teaching your own kids (if you have them or plan to have them), nieces and nephews, your friends’ kids, etc about the importance of kindness. Not that you should be nice to everyone because it may come back to bite you later if you’re not, but that it’s the right thing to do. You never know what’s going in someone else’s life, and sometimes, someone showing you some kindness can make all the difference in the world.

  125. Circles*

    A little off-topic so please delete if needed: My bully ended up marrying my cousin. I declined the wedding invite. Aunt called and asked why I wasn’t coming. I should have just used the previous, unbreakable commitment excuse but I opted for the truth because I still felt pain from the things she did and encouraged others to do to me. Nuclear-level drama ensued, including bully saying outright that I deserved what I got. I no longer celebrate holidays, birthdays or major life events with my family at the same time. I visit them when she is not going to be around.

    OP, I suggest you only apologize if you are sincerely sorry for what you did to her, which I don’t think you are because said “I wasn’t a very nice person back then, and I probably was pretty awful to this girl”. That sounds like you don’t even remember how you were awful to her.

    Some people change; most people don’t. If don’t think apologizing will get you in the door at this company, then don’t. That makes it about you getting what you want, instead of being sincerely sorry about what you did to her.

    1. Circles*

      P.S. Bully originally denied bullying me in school but when a friend got involved and said that yes, you did bully her and gave specific examples and talked about how worried she was that I was suicidal, then she started with you got what you deserved stuff. She tried to justify that by saying I wouldn’t act normal, I didn’t dress right, etc.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        Holy God. I’m sorry. One of my childhood bullies was my father and he will never admit to any of it and my family often says, “get over it”. I feel I could start getting over it if someone would acknowledge a degree of it.

        1. Oranges*

          That’s the part that makes me see red. It’s not that bad. Eff you.

          One of my friends is super skinny and I’m a stocky little furnace. If you put us both in sub zero temperatures I’m gonna survive a LOT longer. So obviously she should just get over being dead of hypothermia when I’m just a little frost bitten right?

          That’s not how this works. I was traumatized as a child and am just now getting over something that other people might view as no big thing. It was big TO ME. It and things that happened because of it stunted my sexuality for TWENTY years.

          So yeah. I HATE that particular flavor of bs

    2. J-me*

      Wow, I am so sorry. She actually said you got what you deserved?! I can never wrap my mind around people who are ok with making the lives of others miserable. Just… why? I hope your life outside of your family is rich and rewarding, or on the path to being more so.

  126. Tempest*

    As someone who was bullied by many people all through school for being too poor, too fat, too smart, too well behaved, the list goes on, OP I think you need to accept that as long as this woman works at this company, you will not.

    Don’t apologize to her. You don’t give a solitary bother about her or what you did to her or what you put her through. If you did, you’d have thought an apology was due before the fact she hates you so much she won’t work with you caused YOU a problem. There is no way you can apologize to this woman now that doesn’t say ‘I don’t care what I did to you but I want what I need and I hope I can trick you into seeing me in a different light so I don’t have to move away to get a job.’ The whole letter you wrote is all about you you you. You are someone this woman will not work with because of what you said/did to her.

    Maybe you’re a different person now. I hope so. But the way you treated this woman, the treatment you call ‘probably pretty horrible’ shaped her into the woman who would rather leave her successful, ‘rockstar’ job than have to work with you. You barely remember what you did to her but she dislikes you to the point that she will not work with you. The company rightly values her more with her proven rockstar track record than the unknown quantity you are. I’m guessing that isn’t going to change and it shouldn’t be on her to be guilt tripped into feeling bad enough for YOU to reverse her decision so you can again get what you want. It was to be a jerk to people in school and now it’s to make someone else uncomfortable at their job so you can have your way.

    Find somewhere else to work. Leave this woman alone. Try not to be that person you were at 17 any more. Yes, I do believe the person who’s life it sounds like you made into a living hell deserves to blacklist you from her workplace so that she gets to live her awesome rockstar life she worked hard for in spite of how hard people like you made her schooling in peace.

    Sorry if that’s harsh but too many ‘kids’-and at 17 you’re pretty aware of right and wrong you’d just rather be popular than kind-get away with treating people like this until real life bites them on the bottom and internalizing their bullying gets them further in adult life.

      1. Tempest*

        Yeah, having gotten to read the OP’s additional comments this morning, I stand by what I wrote here plus a million. The way she’s minimizing what she did I’d be she’s still not as nice a person as she thinks she is.

  127. Roscoe*

    So I asked this earlier, and it kind of got derailed by some other things I said. But really where is the line with this? I’m not trying to downplay bullying, but at what point is it bit much to hold stuff people did in high school against them years later? If my high school girlfriend broke my heart and cheated on me with my best friend is that enough? If I a dude and I got in a big fight is that enough? Or is it basically any way someone wronged you at any point is ok to hold against them professionally in perpetuity? Because I think for a lot of people there is a point where you’d say some form of “it was 10+ years ago, get over it”. Maybe in this situation there isn’t a limit, but I think high school drama does have one.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I think you may be confusing “holding stuff against them” with being traumatised. And you do sound like you’re downplaying it.

      Breaking someone’s heart is not a crime.

      Abuse between adults is a crime, however. Abuse between children is, according to your post, not the same. Even though children don’t feel small to each other.

      You ARE downplaying it by calling it “high school drama” someone should “get over”.

      And here is the thing about trauma: it is not about deciding to “get over it”.

      If a horse kicks me in the eye and I go blind in that eye, I try to “get over it” but I still won’t be able to see out of that eye and I still am likely to jump when horses come near me.

      And why would I want to be around a horse that kicked me and blinded me when I don’t need to?

      You mentioned you are a teacher. I’m concerned that you see bullying as “drama”.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        And if I missed your general point it’s because what you asked is appropriate to ask about some things, but not this.

        1. Roscoe*

          So why isn’t it appropriate? Honestly? Because some people do need to go to therapy for a broken heart. People do get suicidal for failed relationships. Similarly, there could be no physical abuse, but they just mocked someone (which while mean, is also not a crime). We don’t know if the OP beat the person up everyday or just did a bunch of little things over and over that made her life hell, but really wouldn’t be considered illegal in any way. So I do kind of think this question is valid.

          1. Treecat*

            It is really disheartening that you seem to think the woman in question isn’t allowed to use her position and the political capital she’s built as a stellar employee to help create a good working environment for herself. OP isn’t entitled to a job just because they meet the qualifications on paper. The reason why the woman doesn’t want to work with OP doesn’t matter: she doesn’t, and she’s the rock star employee whose happiness is more important to the company than the OP’s. Tough break for OP, but people lose out on job opportunities all the time.

          2. Chriama*

            I do think your phrasing was kind of indicating one ‘right’ perspective. But to answer your question — I don’t think it matters. If someone doesn’t like you because they feel like you harmed them, and they’re in a position where people find them credible and value them, and you’re the outsider, it’s normal to expect you’ll suffer from that.

            I would say that if they attempt to do something illegal to you, physically harm you, or state things that are objectively and verifiably untrue then they’re going too far. For all other actions, I wouldn’t think they need to ‘get over’ it just because their coping mechanism is not beneficial to you.

            One final thing – forgiveness is for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving, not the one being forgiven. So asking if it’s ok to “hold something against someone” is looking at it from the wrong perspective. If holding it against the OP was affecting the victim’s life, obviously we’d want her to to ‘get over it’ or deal with it for her *own* sake. But otherwise I don’t find it appropriate to set standards around that (again, except for the caveats I mentioned above.)

          3. fposte*

            It may be valid, but it’s not answerable. There is no bright line, where three mean things get forgiven in under ten years but four takes you to twenty, and we’re not talking about sentencing somebody for their behavior but negotiating how humans react to it. So it doesn’t matter if you or I think what this woman is responding to is small or large; it was big enough to be an issue for her a decade later, and she brought it to her workplace, and they’re willing to consider her reservations sufficient. The question for the workplace isn’t “Is this a fair reaction to what the OP did?” but “What’s the best thing for our workplace?” They’re free to say “Well, Lucinda hates everybody, and the OP seems like a highly competent candidate for a role we’re struggling to fill, so we’re going to hire the OP and coach/move Lucinda if necessary.” Or they could, as they did, say “Lucinda’s objections are significant to us, so we’ll find somebody else.”

            Maybe take the childhood and the bullying out of the issue; in adults, in my small and incestuous academic community, whether you really disliked somebody ten years ago matters in hiring. I’ve been in hiring experiences where we decided to overlook it and hiring experiences where we didn’t, but being disliked by people matters. I don’t see any reason to declare it off limits if the dislike happened before they were eighteen.

          4. Falling Diphthong*

            She can set boundaries. Her employer can try to push back on those boundaries–just like if she said she wanted to come in at 10 on Wednesdays. The person who bullied her in high school does not get to tell her her boundaries are wrong and she needs to go get some therapy because now she is standing in the way of the local career he wants.

            And that would be true if they spent a past job fighting bitterly about the use of semicolons. She can say she won’t work with him; her company can decide that she’s worth keeping or worth losing; your or my opinions on whether the initial complaint is a big or minor deal are irrelevant.

          5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I don’t understand your argument.

            Are you saying the only appropriate line to draw is when someone commits a crime? Because you keep emphasizing whether conduct is criminal or not, while also minimizing the severity of what happened and writing it off as “teenage drama” that Rock Star should “get over.”

            I really want to hear you out, but I’m having a hard time determining what you think should be the line. I have the sense that you have an idea of where you think this may be, but right now you’re so focused on negating the line Rock Star has drawn that I can’t tell how far or close you think the line ought to be.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Sorry, I should caveat to say that I don’t mean to sound/be attacking, and I apologize if my tone is coming off that way. The sentiment I’ve got is bewildered curiosity. And I don’t mean to suggest that you’re trying to paint Rock Star as a bad guy—I just mean that the focus seems to be on Rock Star’s reaction. I’m trying to better understand how you define/perceive bullying conduct by and between older high school students and how that translates into adulthood.

      2. Tuxedo Cat*

        Whatever happened to the rock star employee was traumatic enough that according the letter writer, the rock star employee got flustered enough to leave behind a bag in a parking lot when she ran into the letter writer.

        Regardless, this woman felt that working with the letter writer was worth speaking up about.

    2. LBK*

      There’s a difference between holding something against someone and just preferring to not be around someone who brings up bad memories for you. That doesn’t mean you still think they should be punished for it or whatever, but even if I can be cordial to someone I have a bad history with, that doesn’t mean I’d rather not see them if I have the option not to.

    3. Sylvia*

      I think there is a limit, but it’s a hard one to find. I don’t think we really can for this letter.

      There’s a whole wide range of things the OP could or could not have done to this girl, as well as how she could or could not have perceived it, and how it fit into the context of the rest of her life at that age. We just don’t know enough.

      For example, there’s one high school bully I wouldn’t want to work with. He sexually harassed me and I’m done with him. Not wanting to be around someone who harassed you or attacked you in a fight doesn’t seem like too much.

      But, continuing my example, there were others who were rude in class because they didn’t like that my friends and I spent lunch breaks in the library. Is that worth caring about 10+ years later? It was barely worth caring about back then.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, it’s not clear if there might have been a sexual harassment component here, but there’s a guy who did that to me in high school, and I wouldn’t want to work with him now.

    4. Just Another Techie*

      It’s not “holding” anything “against” anyone in a punitive way. It is a victim of something terrible deciding that she is unwilling to be exposed to the source of that pain on a daily basis. In your framing, and in the OP, it appears as if you believe there is some cosmic Judge Judy dishing out punishment. That’s not how it works. RockStar Employee is making decisions about her life. I’m 99.999999% confident is has nothing to do with punishing OP and everything to do with RockStar not wanting to be reminded every day of a difficult time in her life. Everyone who has experienced something terribly painful or traumatic reacts to it differently, with different coping mechanisms and different levels of willingness to be reminded of the original situation and different levels of ability to set and maintain boundaries.

      Or flip it around. Let’s say instead of doing something horrible, OP did something wondeful instead. Maybe she was always a steady study-group member for the RockStar Employee, or maybe she had a car and made a last-minute run to the arts & crafts stores and totally saved RockStar’s science fair display, causing RockStar to win an award. Ten years later RockStar remembers the good deeds and tells her boss “Hey, OP is really great! When we were kids OP was steady and reliable and therefore you really should hire her.” Would you still say there should be a limit? Would you still ask “where’s the line?” and “why should people be judged by what they did in high school?”

      Time flows linearly and actions have reactions. We live in a causal world. That’s just how it is.

      I also think you’re still missing the point by calling this “high school drama.” That’s belittling and dismissive of something that was so huge in RockStar’s life that she’s willing to press a giant red button and risk blowing up her career and upending her life over. It’s also something that happens a lot when women, especially, have concerns about their well-being or safety.

      1. AW*

        Let’s say instead of doing something horrible, OP did something wonderful instead…Would you still say there should be a limit?

        Can I steal this? I really want to use this the next time I have to hear someone say it’s wrong to still be upset by something. I love it because with good things it’s the exact opposite: if you *don’t* still count it after a long period of time, you’re ungrateful.

        1. Just Another Techie*

          Sure!

          with good things it’s the exact opposite: if you *don’t* still count it after a long period of time, you’re ungrateful.
          Yes exactly.

      2. ThatUnpopularGirl*

        Also I’d like to point out that, by calling it “high school drama” and belittling it in such a way it Roscoe sends the message to me, and possibly to others who were bullied in school, that you were on the opposite side of these sorts of events from us. In other words, it sends me a clear message that Roscoe was likely a bully or bystander, but was never directly affected by bullying themselves. I would go to the extent to say that for victims of school time bullying it actually leaves a deeper impact on us than adult experiences of cruelty…

        1. Sylvia*

          Mm, having a different take on the situation doesn’t mean that someone was a bully. Plenty of people who were bullied came out of it with different things to say about it. Also, although I’ve gone into my own experience in comments on this post, I don’t think people should have to disclose theirs in order to avoid being assumed to be a bully.

          1. ThatUnpopularGirl*

            Reading more I see that above Roscoe has pointed out they never experienced bullying. Which also generally points to bully or bystander as in the crazy drama of high school, unless you were a complete Loner, you were somehow involved in the drama/bullying. High school “drama” leaves scars and can feel debilitating. I was this girl in high school effectively because grade 10 my “best friend” cut me off and took everyone I knew with her. That left crazy scars and I would go into panic mode to this day if I so much as heard her name. This actually makes life quite difficult as she had a really common girls name. So I think at the last Roscoe could never understand where people like us are coming from and this needs to back off and actually listen to those of us who have experienced such. Especially for the sake of their students who would be going through these sorts of things as well.

            1. Hrovitnir*

              This isn’t 100% relevant but comments like this really make me wonder if high school in the US really does resemble a toned down version of what you see in the media. Because while there most certainly was bullying in our school there wasn’t the defined “hierarchy” people were talking about above, and it’s entirely possible to have very little to do with the dramas of other people’s friend groups.

              I had a few interpersonal conflicts in high school, but after the first couple of years I had a small friend group, we hung out in the library or computer rooms and were probably considered “nerds”, were vaguely friendly with the other people in my year and were neither bullied nor aware of their social issues. (I went to a girl’s school for the first four years but the situation was virtually identical in my last year except my friends were all male. *shrug*)

              1. FDCA In Canada*

                Good heavens, no. I went to high school in the US and had a very similar experience to you–small friend group, hung out together, had disagreements that never really rose to being fights, and ignored/didn’t pay attention to whatever other drama was happening elsewhere. While I’m sure there was bullying, I was not involved rather as being bullied or bullying, and it’s a little bewildering to be accused of it.

    5. seejay*

      There’s a difference between stuff that you just “get over” versus things that actually mentally scar you. Sure, the highschool boyfriend that broke my heart, I got over. The friends that turned on me when we had a big fight and we weren’t friends anymore, I got over. I lost boyfriends and friends multiple times over the years, you get over that, that’s part of maturing and growing up. Some people might need therapy for it, but most things in life are usually “life things” that you’re supposed to get over.

      But not everyone just “gets over it” for a range of reasons. It could be they have other problems such as unhealthy or poor relationship models growing up, or they don’t learn good coping techniques for when bad, yet normal, things happen. Maybe there’s already bad, not normal, things going on in their lives and because of this they don’t react well to the normal things like a highschool breakup. Throw in things like addictions or abuse or mental illness, and you have all sorts of unknown factors that might change how someone reacts and deals with “normal” high school life events. You don’t know. Teenagers have funny brains with all sorts of hormones and chemicals going at war and they don’t make the smartest decisions and things that happen can form a lasting impression on them into their adult life.

      Once you throw bullying into the mix, that’s a whole other ballgame. It’s traumatic, ongoing mental, emotional, psychological and sometimes physical abuse. This isn’t a one-time “someone shoved Timmy into a locker”. Bullying is something that goes on for months to years. Reading through the posts on here, no one’s talking about how they’re holding grudges against someone who took their highschool boy/girlfriend or how one person beat them up. They’re talking about long-term harassment that no one stopped, that drove people to self-harm and suicide attempts. Bullying has serious long-term and sometimes fatal consequences so it’s not something you just “get over”.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      At what point is it bit much to hold stuff people did in high school against them years later?
      There is no objective point before which it’s okay to hold something against people and after which it isn’t. This goes for high school, college, first jobs, jobs you held 20 years ago–there is no magical “okay, everyone now has to get over any slights, real or perceived” statute of limitations.

      Nor is there a statute about the exact moment when stuff goes from big deal to minor kerfuffle. Perceptions will vary widely. What IS true is that adults can set boundaries. To a much greater extent than children, who can’t just decide they will quit this school right this second and go find a different high school. It doesn’t matter if you think the conditions of a freelance contract I’m offered are fair or ridiculous–I can completely ignore your opinion and take or pass on the contract based on my own boundaries. (Yes, I have had bemusing arguments about whether I have to take less than my stated minimum because they really want me to do a project. I passed on the whole project, even though in the employer’s view they were offering reasonable compensation and I was wrong to not accept it.)

      I think high school drama does have (a time limit beyond which one is required to get over it).
      I think the problem is your use of the term ‘drama.’ Like if it happened in high school it can’t have been a real thing but is just some silliness due to hormones, and cannot have a lasting impact on any adult. People are formed by their childhoods, and that includes decisions like ‘Now that I am an adult, I choose to do X differently than what was forced on me as a child.’ That includes not dealing with people who already had a hundred chances to not be jerks, and didn’t take them.

    7. SeptemberGrrl*

      The things you’re asking aren’t really germane to the question, which is should the OP try and contact the woman and try and minimize the impact this is having on his career prospects.

      It sounds like you are looking for a set of rules like human beings are allowed to feel X about Y for Z years and if they feel any other way, they are wrong. Why are you looking for that? You can ask 100 people and you’ll get 100 answers. Every person is different and every situation is different and there’s no emotions police running away making sure people aren’t feeling a certain way for too long. You do you: Feel how you want, for however long you want and let everyone else do the same.

      2. Roscoe*

        Half the responses on here aren’t germane to the question, they are anecdotes about how people were bullied, which has nothing to do with OPs career prospects.

        1. AD*

          Nope. People are trying to put themselves in either the OP’s shoes (or the employee) and using their experience as a guide to how they would react (and what bullying meant to them).
          Your question is an unanswerable one that seems to want to quantify what is/is not acceptable behavior, which is practically inviting tangential and subjective commentary on something that is only vaguely related to what OP’s actual dilemma is.

        2. Jessie the First (or second)*

          Roscoe, people are trying to help you with empathy. Because your question seriously lacks in it – your question/argument appears to be that you do not understand a thing/wouldn’t feel that way yourself and therefore it is not a valid feeling. People are making an effort to explain to you the effects of the behavior kfox (the OP) engaged in.

          There is no bright line rule because this is about people and feelings. kfox made an effort to ostracize her classmate and turn her friend group against her (which came out in bits and pieces, in somewhat contradictory comments here), which may be NBD to some people; it is not unreasonable, unheard of, or unusual, however, for that to have a lasting impact on a person.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Where is it written we have to be around people we dislike just so we can be declared non-grudge holders?

      Rock Star could be totally free of any grudges and yet decide, “nope, done with this person, I want to meet new people”.

      The line is where ever the recipient of the abuse draws that line. So the answer is as varied as people are varied.

      It’s not holding a grudge to remove yourself from the proximity of a person with toxic behaviors. That is actually called “healthy”.

      This isn’t high school drama, this is bullying. If Rock Star considers OP abusive, then the answer is she will stay away for the rest of her life.

    9. Not That Simple.*

      Bullying can cause Complex PTSD – a syndrome with all the symptoms of PTSD plus more. Sufferers literally never feel safe. They don’t trust people. Did your high school girlfriend cause you to suffer PTSD? Or did she make you feel a bit sad?

      The other side of that is that I would also argue you should be under no obligation to work with your ex girlfriend.

  128. Helena*

    I grew up in a blue collar family where everyone either worked in a factory of some kind and/or stayed home with the kids. I was the first person from either side to graduate from high school. When I was still in high school my grandfather told me he knew her could never give me much career or advice because I was going to have such a different experience than him but he did give me the best piece of advice I have ever had: “Remember, the butt you kick today might be the one you have to kiss tomorrow”. It holds true, no matter how old I get.

  129. Observer*

    I haven’t read anything but the very first, comment but that tells me you probably got lots of comments about what it means to be the victim of a bully.

    Here is what else you need to keep in mind. Alison is completely correct that the only way you can apologize is if you actually change your mind set. But, it doesn’t seem like you really have. You might not be the same bully you were, but you don’t seem sorry for what you did, just that it’s having repercussions. Being 17 is absolutely NOT an excuse for being a bully. And brushing off “I probably was pretty awful” as merely “something I said” says that you don’t see this as a real problem or one that has nothing to do with your behavior.

    Beyond the issue of your apology, there is the fact that if you really don’t get why you are responsible for what you did and how serious it is, then you still are “not such a nice person”. And there is a good chance that anyone who knew you then is going to continue to harbor less than positive impressions of you, even if they see the better behaved person you have become. And while you may not care all that much, as you can see – old relationships can come back to haunt you.

    1. Amber Rose*

      OP wasn’t a bully though. There was just some really normal high school friend drama that unfortunately ended up leaving the Rockstar in a rough place. If I were OP, I wouldn’t think too much of it either, and it really seems like it isn’t a real problem.

        1. AD*

          To clarify, OP was the direct cause of Rockstar being isolated and shunned by her circle of friends, at a vulnerable time in her teenage years.

          Whether she was cognizant of the result of her actions, whether she was being deliberately malicious or not…none of this matters, because the results for Rockstar were pretty dire from what it sounds like.

          Amber, I notice you’ve left a couple of comments that seek to “normalize” the OP’s behavior. First of all, neither you nor anyone else is qualified to pinpoint what is or is not “bullying” (a very subjective thing). Second of all, it feels like this gives the message that anything short of outright physical abuse or torment is not bullying. According to the US government, bullying is “unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance”. There’s a continuum of behaviors that fall into that area.

          1. Amber Rose*

            I saw no aggressive behavior in OP’s account. Which doesn’t mean it wasn’t taken as aggressive, or that it wasn’t really bullying. What I mean is that OP shouldn’t necessarily feel crushing guilt or a pressing urge to apologize.

            “Whether she was cognizant of the result of her actions, whether she was being deliberately malicious or not…none of this matters, because the results for Rockstar were pretty dire from what it sounds like. ”

            It absolutely matters. You can’t control the actions of others and you shouldn’t feel you have to take lumps for their decisions. Op was a little mean, but didn’t actually tell everyone else to ditch Rockstar. That was their own call. It doesn’t matter TO ROCKSTAR, but this letter isn’t about them, it’s about OP and what they should do next.

            Rockstar almost certainly has a different account of things, but she is NOT the OP. We can’t address her concerns, we don’t know them. We can only take the facts as given.

      2. Observer*

        I’m with AD. Freezing out a friend is one thing. Taking the friend group with you, is another, and from what the OP says, that seems to be what happened. As well, this is NOT just a thing the OP said – it’s clearly a pattern of behavior. Not horrible and terrible behavior, but still very far from a one off comment.

      3. Lurker*

        Yes she was, and that type of bullying has a name: relational aggression, and it is emotionally scarring.

        1. Bibliovore*

          yes, I agree. Kfox (OP) has described her own behavior. That behavior is textbook bullying. It is harmful, lasting and not benign. This is not simply a case of someone who just didn’t want to be friends. This is a case of active harm done to a vulnerable adolescent. Add the part that she was a neighbor therefore unavoidable makes me wonder why commenters seem to be insisting that no actual harm was inflicted.

          1. Gadfly*

            Probably in part due to the difficulty in finding/reading scattered updates and clarifications.

  130. the spam queen*

    This is a story I will share with my school age daughter, to open a discussion about the impact of her actions now on her future. It’s an extreme example, but one that I think will resonate with her.

    Great advice. And as someone who was bullied throughout school for being too smart, and too nerdy, and now a rockstar with my current employer, the tone of this letter comes off to me as entitled. It may be my personal bias, but “I don’t think I deserve this treatment” just rubs me the wrong way.

  131. No Crying in Baseball*

    This letter and these comments have really displayed how much affect your comments and actions have on other people – kind, thoughtless, and unkind or mean. Unfortunately, you can be (just) thoughtless, and yet depending upon the other person and the emotional situation they are in at the time, it can be felt as mean. On the other hand, hopefully by high school you’re not being thoughtless any more. Joking comments may make some people laugh (I was just kidding!) but if they’re hurtful to just one person, you shouldn’t make them – and isn’t that hard, especially when you don’t even realize it even could be hurtful. (“I didn’t know she hated her freckles when I said it looked like she had cinnamon sprinkles on her cheeks”.)

    Words as well as tone of voice can be difficult, and things you don’t even remember can stay with other people for years.

    1. ThatUnpopularGirl*

      The accuracy of this is amazing. I doubt one of my college professor remembers telling me as a newbie freshman that my dream/goal for my college career was impossible. However, I took that one side comment and went on to become somewhat famous in my field of the university by doing what she said was impossible and her side comment at orientation only fueled my drive more. I was determined to prove her wrong and I did, but I doubt she realizes that I proved wrong something she told me. She wouldn’t have even known who I was back then. But it still had a strong effect on me though she didn’t realize it and likely still doesn’t. So yes just the smallest things said (“X is SO annoying” ‘Your mom’ jokes to someone without a mom or whose mom may be quite sick, etc…) can have a huge impact on people like NCiB pointed out and this is a good thing to think on and consider when reflecting on how you treated this person in high school.

  132. FD*

    I think apologies can go both ways, really. I certainly don’t think an apology should or would get you anywhere, and if you can’t do it wholeheartedly you shouldn’t bother.

    But I will always remember the apology letter I got from one of the girls who bullied me, which she gave me a bit after we graduated from elementary. I don’t believe anyone made her write it, and I don’t see how it would have benefited her in any way. But she did sincerely apologize, admit wrongdoing, and acknowledge that she did nothing to stop others, as well as participating herself.

    I kept the letter for many years as a reminder that sometimes, people do choose to change.

  133. A Teacher*

    I’m chiming in really late to this conversation, but my own experience with the bully was my freshman year of college and she was my roommate. On the floor with 70+ other girls she isolated me to the point where only three other girls were talking to me which is called mobbing. She did some pretty horrendous things, too much to discuss here. but at the end of it she was given seven years probation for theft and harassment.

    If I saw her on the street today I wouldn’t want to interact with her let alone work with her. I’ve moved on to become successful but I don’t get that year plus of my life back either. I teach high school for a living now and the effects of Bullying are terrifying. I’ve taken my experience and made it into the unit in my health occupations class where I also touched on lateral violence in the workplace.

    Should you be blacklisted? That I don’t know. I do know that Karma has a way of catching up with people and unfortunately this might be your karma.

  134. C Average*

    After reading the OP’s replies, I’m even more conflicted about this whole scenario.

    Like the girl the OP describes, I was edged out of a high school friend group. It’s hard to say exactly why it happened, though many possibilities come to mind: I was awkward and insecure and not as fun as other people, I developed unrequited crushes on unavailable people, I was bookish and weird and not hot. But the fact remains that specific people edged me out, and I saw it happening and it hurt. It would not be hyperbolic to say it changed my life trajectory: it affected my self-image, my grades, my college selection, and even my career trajectory. It still affects how I socialize and how I move through the world.

    I don’t think those kids are evil people or that they were being malicious. They, too, were insecure and anxious; they were just higher in the social pecking order than I was.

    If they were to apologize, I’d be . . . unlikely to respond, honestly. I’d be like, “Huh. That’s a period of my life I’d rather not contemplate outside of a therapist’s office, and even all these years later I’d rather pretend you never happened to me.”

    And I would not consider working with them, no matter how much they’ve changed, because the remembering is still painful.

    I don’t think they deliberately wronged me, but I’m not interested in any association with them, and no apologies would change my mind on that point–especially an opportunistic-seeming apology.

    1. Chriama*

      Yup, I commented about that above. I believe that both OP and her high school acquaintance are telling the ‘truth’. I think that not all actions are always bullying. But accepting that both people are right also means accepting that behavior based on that perception is also right. She shouldn’t have to work with someone she saw as victimizing her in high school.

      1. fposte*

        I would differ slightly on that. I’d say she doesn’t have to keep quiet to her current job about her perception, but there’s no right not to work with somebody else; if her employer had made a different call on the OP, that would be valid too.

    2. LBK*

      Extremely well put. I wouldn’t think they were bad people for it, exactly, but I wouldn’t really be thrilled to be around them.

  135. Meg*

    Oh, this is really interesting to me, because something vaguely similar has surfaced in my life (personal, not work life) recently. I was bullied all through elementary school by one girl in my very small school. To be honest, with 15-20 years of distance, using the word bully is a little extreme and not totally accurate. But she basically flipped between being my friend and being absolutely horrible to me for no reason, and when she decided she didn’t like me she took my other friends with her. I went to a small school with one class of each grade, so that meant I had no one to hang out with when she decided no one was going to talk to me. We had a mutual best friend who I’ve stayed close to. Mutual friend is getting married this summer, and I’m going to the wedding. I’m assuming mean girl is too. I haven’t seen her since midway through high school when she attempted a seemingly genuine apology, which turned out to be totally fake and only because she wanted something from me.

    I’ve learned some things about mean girl’s family situation in the past couple years that made me realize that no matter how miserable I was at the time, my life was still infinitely better than hers was. I’m going to the wedding, but I have some complicated feelings about seeing her again. But if I found out she was applying to my company? I’d most likely tell my boss I would prefer not to work with her, especially if the position was on my team. (all hypothetical since we live hundreds of miles apart). I’m not holding a grudge or refusing to see her in my personal life, but I really don’t want to be around someone every day who was so terrible to me. I’m assuming she’s changed and grown up since then, but that doesn’t mean I want to have to see her at a job I really like every single day.

    This feels rambly and not very eloquent, but I agree with what someone said above: you own what you did then, and now you have to deal with the fallout.

  136. Ann O'Nemity*

    Alison is right, this is a tricky one. I don’t know if the OP will read through all these comments. There’s been a lot of piling on (far more than most AAM posts) and a lot of “I was bullied and bullies deserve what whatever they get” sentiments shared. I have to say, if I was the OP I probably couldn’t have read through all these comments filled with criticism and contempt. At least not without crying.

    As for practical advice… I can’t think of a good way for the OP to apologize and smooth things over with the “Rock Star.” And even if they did, it’s probably not going to get OP off the company’s blacklist, at least in the short-term. It’s unlikely that even the most genuine and heartfelt apology would be enough to make the Rock Star go back to the hiring manager or HR and say, “I changed my mind, OP and I are okay now.”

    The OP may truly be better off forgetting about this company for awhile and maybe even moving away from this geographic location, at least until they are more established in the field.

          1. CM*

            Agreed! I am reeling from reading this outpouring of pain and judgment. The middle school and high school years are such a volatile time. I know there are people who hurt me deeply, and that there are also people who I hurt deeply. I am positive that some of the people who yelled racist comments at me on a daily basis would not remember their actions or me; on the other hand, I was once informed that someone I hadn’t seen in years, and had always thought of as a childhood friend, thinks I ruined their life and would kick my ass if they ever saw me. It’s impossible to know, even if you were the one in the situation, what the lasting impact will be. Kfox, I’m very impressed by your ability to engage with all of this constructively and openly.

  137. Beth*

    Whoa, I could only read the first hundred or so comments before I realized something seemed off– AAM is the one who used the term “bully, ” the OP did not; instead, the phrase used was “not very nice.” There were plenty of people who were “not very nice” to me in high school, but never bullied me. And reading the OP’s description of what actually happened above, I have to say.. that doesn’t sound like bullying, although I certainly agree it was unkind. But again.. I was a weirdo in high school and there were plenty of people who weren’t always nice to me, but that doesn’t make them bullies. Of course, there were probably people that *I* was mean to because I was 16 with raging hormones, but I wouldn’t think about THAT until someone mentioned it to me (in a situation like this, perhaps).

    I am sure there are many people who are commenting who had terrible experiences with bullies.. but there is a lot of projection here. If I were the OP, I’d maybe ask some friends or other high school classmates (with Facebook, surely there are some!) and ask for an honest opinion on how horrible they were. I guess I feel like people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on their own personal experiences.

    1. AW*

      The OP has said in the comments that the woman in question did use the term “bully” when talking about her. They aren’t sure if their behavior counts as that but the other person sees it that way.

    2. Kfox (OP)*

      I used “bully” in the subject of my email because that is apparently the term Rock Star used when she shot down my candidacy. According to the acquaintance, the language she used was along the lines of, “I would be very uncomfortable if you hired Kfox for the producer job. She was a bully in high school; I would move on if I had to see her every day.”

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      I generally agree with you except for the part about “I was probably not very nice to her.” While we are supposed to take OPs at their word, I don’t think it’s inappropriate for hundreds of people to weigh in and say, “When someone claims to have no memory of interactions that made other people feel bad, they’re very often being dishonest.” That’s what we’ve all learned from experience, and we’d be naive little Pollyannas if we continually disregarded our lived experiences when it comes to really specific phrases that are linked to really specific formative experiences. People who are mean to other people usually deny it later.

    4. Marisol*

      I agree with you that there is a lot of projection going on. I think Alison used the word “bully” because the OP put it in the subject line of her original email? If memory serves she mentioned that upthread. But regardless, lots of projection, and lots of undeserved judgement against the OP.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The subject line of the OP’s email to me was “I didn’t get a job because I was a bully in high school”; that’s where the title of the post came from.

  138. AW*

    It might not have to do with forgiving or not forgiving you, and she might be well aware that you’re a different person now — and yet might still feel that seeing her high school tormenter every day isn’t something she’d want to stick around for. If that’s how she feels, that’s legitimate…

    I think this is the most important bit of advice and it still applies even after the OP’s clarification about what exactly happened. Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting, sometimes even when you want to forget. Sometimes it’s just there. Sometimes you can’t fix it. That’s just how it is.

    Most of our mutual friends stopped hanging out with her as well.

    Five bucks says one of your mutual friends told her at least one of three things:
    1) that the fact that you were dating the boy she liked was why they stopped hanging out with her (i.e. they chose the OP over her)
    2) that you explicitly told them to stop hanging out with her, or
    3) that they only reason they hung out with her was because the OP was friends with her but now that she isn’t they aren’t friends either

    I think #2 is likely since she describes it as bullying which seems like she thinks you deliberately stopped others from being friends with her, rather than it just being a secondary effect of dating the boy or not being friends with you.

    So if you do apologize it should include the friend group ghosting on her as well. It seems like most of the people replying to your explanation are focusing on the boy and not on the fact that she got ostracized.

    1. AW*

      It seems like most of the people replying to your explanation are focusing on the boy and not on the fact that she got ostracized.

      Pretend this line doesn’t exist as it is not true. I didn’t read the whole thread and going back I see that this has been said.

    2. Kfox (OP)*

      To clarify, it wasn’t *because* of the boy that we stopped hanging out. I did know Rock Star liked him when he asked me out. I had told her I wasn’t interested, even though I sort of was. Just … maybe not as interested as she was?

      We were both in the same friend group before we started hanging out all the time, we just weren’t close. For a while, we were both kind of the social organizers/planners of the group. It’s my understanding most of our mutual friends stopped hanging out with Rock Star when I did, though I didn’t really keep track. I just always assumed she had other friends.

      1. blackcat*

        “I just always assumed she had other friends.” But she might not have. And so you might have been an unwitting ringleader in a lot of people ostracizing her. It may be that some other members of the friend group where mean to her, and she thought you were telling/encouraging them to be mean, since you were the one dating that boy.

        It’s possible for you both to have two very different experiences. Honestly, with the lack of something that *you* think that you really need to apologize for, I don’t think an apology can go over well.

      2. Rabbit*

        I think it’s very interesting and pretty dang telling that here you say “It’s my understanding most of our mutual friends stopped hanging out with Rock Star when I did, though I didn’t really keep track” but in an earlier comment you said “I know I probably said things behind her back that set the tone for how other people treated her. I mostly cared about getting what I wanted, which was for people to hang out at my house on the weekend and not hers — and that I got. I know it got back to her that I’d told people I didn’t want to be friends with her anymore. (I know I didn’t say it that nicely. I’m sure it was, “Ugh, Rock Star is SO annoying! Why does she follow us around everywhere?”)” I honestly don’t think that those two statements play well with each other and that the latter is probably more honest.

        Did you really “just assume” that she had other friends and “not keep track” of if your mutual friends group was hanging out with her or not? Because it seems like you knew very well that they weren’t – you wanted them to hang out with you, at your house, and not at hers. If you’re honestly trying to be self-reflective here, possibly you would benefit from spending some time trying to figure out what your motivations were and if you were being selfish and cruel. (No judgement here, a lot of teenagers are self-centered and cruel without intentionally trying to hurt anyone for fun.)

        It must be frustrating to know that something you did a decade ago is limiting your options in the future, but hopefully this will give you a chance to grow as a person. I honestly wouldn’t email her at this point, but if you do decide to do so please wait until you’ve really unpacked what you did – possibly with the help of a friend who knew you both in high school and/or a therapist.

        1. Kfox (OP)*

          I knew she wasn’t hanging out with our friends anymore, but she was very involved in different clubs at school. I assumed she had other circles that didn’t overlap. For example, I had friends from sports that were not part of this particular group. I figured she had friends from other activities, but she didn’t.

          1. Lilo*

            Look, I have read through your various comments and I am going to be super blunt: I strongly reccomend that you do not contact her. It is clear you haven’t fully acknowledged the extent of the impact of your actions on her and there really is not any way contacting her will go well for you. I think you are far more likely to say something that will just make her more upset.

          2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

            Wow – I know several people have pointed this out, but I have to state this again. Very clearly, and I hope you soak this in. 1. She thought you were her BEST friend. In high school girl language, that’s big deal. 2. You not only cut her off, but convinced the rest of your social circle to do the same. 3. You do realize she was completely bewildered by this, yes? One day, she has a best friend and a social circle and the next you are talking behind her back and no one that was her friend the day before is hanging out with her. 4. Leave her alone. Do not contact. She doesn’t want an apology from you. She is recovering FROM you.

      3. KHB*

        “I just always assumed she had other friends.”

        Just like she’s probably assuming you have other job opportunities.

    3. ThatUnpopularGirl*

      I tend to disagree and think your option 3 is quite likely, as I’ve experienced this my self and I didn’t need telling why they stopped meeting me, it was obvious because they talked to her and not me. So even if no one says “x told me not to hang with you” it still feels like it is their fault. And it also just hurts an incredible amount when suddenly after a disagreement with 1 person a whole group of people stops talking to you…

  139. designbot*

    Don’t send your apology to her work email. Use a personal email or facebook, don’t bother her at work. That feels like it crosses a line to me, plus will seem even more like you’re only apologizing so that you can get a job.

    1. AW*

      This is a good point.

      In fact, the OP should not use any form of communication that’s no deliberately public either. If their Facebook profile is completely public and they allow messages from non-friends then fine. But don’t ask the acquaintance at work to just give you their personal email or something like that.

    2. aelle*

      Not sure I agree with this. If a former bully or abuser of mine had already tracked down my workplace (on purpose or not), the last thing I’d want is to find out that they’ve also tracked down my personal contact information. Because of the baggage there, it could feel like the beginning of harassment and make the victim feel seriously unsafe.

  140. CF*

    You know, maybe this is a good lesson for this person- if they have kids, teach them to not be awful bullies because it can affect them for life. Tough lesson, but being bullied is tougher.

    A girl in my third grade class once walked up to me and said “My mom said not to play with you because you’re sick and going to die soon and I told everyone else, too.” I have a genetic illness- I wasn’t dying, I’m not dying now, and even if I had been, that still was terrible. My parents had to come pick me up from school I was so upset- I hadn’t known my genetic disease was terminal and no one would talk to me in class. This girl obviously doesn’t remember what happened because she keeps adding me on FB. I still remember, and I remember how much it hurt and how much it affected me for years. I’d blackball her.

    1. fposte*

      Have you read the OP’s updates? I’m not sure “awful bullies” is what fits this situation.

  141. The Bill Murray Disagreement*

    Hi OP – I’m siding with don’t apologize, but for slightly different reasons than others here have mentioned.

    I came in late to the discussion and saw your clarifying comments about what went down. That clarification combined with the fact that you’ve heard all this about your former classmate through an acquaintance makes me wonder if this is accurate enough information to start dredging up the past–particularly when it might be viewed as a ploy to get more favorable consideration for a job.

    It’s feasible that your acquaintance’s portrayal of events is more dramatic than what actually happened. People get called in for interviews, get well into that process (only to not be offered the job) and then slip under the radar for future openings all. the. time. While it’s possible your acquaintance’s prediction came true, it’s equally (if not more) possible, that this is just the normal sort of fizzled out candidacy that happens.

    So I guess I come at this two ways: 1) maybe the drama is artificially heightened by a third party who’s conveyed this info to you (possibly from second-hand knowledge) or 2) you really did do this woman so wrong that she felt compelled to expend political capital to prevent your working alongside her.

    Either way, begging for forgiveness will just seem weird/transactional: weird if this has been blown out of proportion and transactional if you’re harboring hope that forgiveness means unfettered access to job opportunities at the company.

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I really like this. Kfox, I hope you spot this comment and blend it with others – wait until you are settled in a new job and potentially reach out then, when there is little to no chance of other interaction with Rockstar. Once there’s “no point” or “no benefit” to you apologizing, Rockstar may be more willing to listen. And even then, the apology shouldn’t be for you dating the boy she liked or not wanting to be her friend but for the way you talked about her and the way you made others in your social group feel they shouldn’t be friends either. You were immature and playing into high school stereotypes but you recognize now how damaging that was to Rockstar and you want to apologize. That’s it. Make no comments about work. Work has nothing to do with it. It’s a personal issue that should be kept separate.

    2. AW*

      When I asked why, I was told a staffer had raised some concerns

      To be fair, this part sounds like someone in the hiring process told her this bit, not the acquaintance. But I do agree that an apology is going to come across transactional if only due to the timing.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        But that was after she had met with the acquaintance. OP had an interview, was turned down, acquaintance mentioned Rockstar blacklisting, OP was turned down for another interview and asked why.

    3. SeptemberGrrl*

      I think in a few months, OP could send an email saying something like “I know you’re working for Org A and I’m in that field now as well. Given how small the field is, I’m sure we’ll run into each other at some point. I feel terribly about how I treated you in high school and while I can’t change what I did then, I wanted to tell you I take responsibility for my actions and I’m sorry.”

    4. Kfox (OP)*

      For context, the reason I think acquaintance reached out was because it seemed so bizarre to her that I would’ve bullied anything. At the same time, she likes and respects Rock Star and says she has no reason not to believe her.

      Apparently my name had come up before I ever applied for the job (because this mutual knew we’d gone to high school) and Rock Star didn’t say anything about being bullied until I was a finalist.

  142. flossie jones*

    My daughter was bullied horribly all through school by the same coven of girls. She is now in college. Recently I received an email from one of them asking me to meet with them for an informational interview because quote “My mom told me to call you. [Daughter] always mentioned what you did and I want to do that. How do I get this kind of job?” For the most part I am thrilled to meet with eager folks wanting to learn about jobs. But I won’t meet with her. I saw the damage that she did to a kid who just wanted to fit in. And I work for a fairly prestigious company, one that is very well known and respected in its field. It would be a coup for anyone to get a job here now. And I know that it’s petty and ridiculous but I will not give someone whose mess I am still dealing with any time.

    Whoever said Karma’s a bitch is right.

    1. AW*

      I’m not sure it’s petty to not do a favor for someone who’s only given you grief (to put it mildly).

      Frankly, I’m not impressed with, “My mom told me to call you” anyway.

      1. blackcat*

        Right?

        A guy I dated in high school was super gracious when he got in contact *with me* to ask if he could get in touch with my dad. Our relationship had not ended well, and I think that there was blame to spread around.* But when he wanted professional advice from one of my parents, he was mature and professional about it.

        *Hilarious high school drama: He decided to run for student government president. At our school, that actually came with a fair amount of responsibility. I knew he wouldn’t be up for it–he struggled with organization and wasn’t the best communicator. So I told him that. “You know I like you and respect you, but I just don’t think this is a good fit for you because [reasons].” He was okay when I expressed my opinion, but dumped me when I said that not only would I not vote for him, I would actively campaign for my other close friend who I knew would be awesome in the job (and was! That guy was elected). So I kinda deserved to get dumped, but he was also sort of an ass about the actual dumping.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      You did the right thing. You don’t want to damage your relationship with your daughter by helping the other girl.

      1. AMG*

        Definitely! There are plenty of people out there to help. Glad you are being selective about it.

  143. StartupLifeLisa*

    This letter is making me question a lot of things about how I recollect high school. I was in an abusive relationship with a very ill person, who came across as just a charismatic Tyler Durden type jerk, when in fast he was (medically, this is his actual diagnosis) psychotic. In retrospect, 7 years after leaving that 6-year relationship, one of the forms of abuse early on was that he manipulated me into pushing away others, as a way of isolating me from people outside the relationship.

    I don’t remember myself as a horrible bully, but I was so messed up during that time of my life that I have no idea what the other people were experiencing. And most of them were caught in my creepster ex’s web of lies too – he was one of those people who is so persuasive they will have you answering to a name that’s not your own the day they meet you, if they want to. Objectively, a total loser, and yet somehow he was surrounded by a cult-like following of guys who would dress like him, dye their hair to look like him, and do anything he said, up to and including fighting him (he was a trained martial artist, so this was never a fair fight at all).

    Geeze, now I’m wondering if I should attend my eventual high school reunion with voodoo dolls of myself to hand out.

    1. AMG*

      You see it, without needing to be prompted. That counts for a lot. So glad you are away from your ex. It sounds quite disturbing.

  144. Amber Rose*

    A billion comments later, OP if you’re still reading this: I was severely bullied throughout school. And I completely agree with you that this isn’t fair, and it sucks. You don’t deserve half the shit you’re getting.

    But nobody ever said life was fair. And if everybody got what they deserved, we wouldn’t need awards or prisons. There’s reality for you.

    If you’re sorry, say sorry. If you aren’t (and you might not be, though I expect you feel some regret) then don’t apologize. Move on. People lose out on “perfect” or “dream” jobs every day and it doesn’t cripple them, they move on. Even in niche environments. You will be able to move forward also. Be a rockstar yourself.

    1. fposte*

      I think you’re on the mark here, Amber. This is one of those “it is what it is” situations where figuring out fair doesn’t really get you anywhere; you just have to keep moving.

  145. Stanton von Waldorf*

    There’s nothing I can say to the OP without breaking Alison’s rule about being kind to the commentators. Instead, I’ll tell one of my most interesting stories, which is about a somewhat similar situation.

    I was one of the bullied ones. I had it pretty bad, being a gay kid in a small conservative town. The peak of the abuse happened when I was 18. Five guys curb-stomped me into a coma. I’ll skip the gory details, but I will point out that it was bad enough that even after multiple surgeries to fix my hip, I still require a cane or crutch to walk. So imagine my surprise ten years later when I saw the name of one of my attackers on a resume. It was a small teapot company with less than ten employees, and I was the bookkeeper/office manager/reception/HR/IT/ETC. My attacker had made the shortlist, and I told my boss, who owned the company, about my history with the guy, that I was unwilling to work with him, and that if he was hired, I would quit. Thankfully, I was working with the best boss I have ever had, who I will call Dave.

    Dave asked me if I wanted to tell him off, and I kinda did. So he called him in for an interview, along with the other two candidates. I was sitting in the interviews. He didn’t interview well, so as it turned out he never would have been hired anyway. However, at the end, I asked him if he remembered me. He didn’t. To be honest, I had lost some weight, lost even more hair, and picked up a few scars along the way, so that wasn’t a big surprise. Then I asked him if he would remember me if I was crying on the ground while my boss yelled “kill the faggot.” First, he turned white as a ghost. Then, in a moment I won’t forget, he stood up and exclaimed that he would never work for “a faggot loving pedophile,” and stormed out of the building.

    This turned out to be a very bad idea on his part. Before that, Dave thought this fake interview was kind of funny and an easy way to keep a key employee (me) happy. After that insult however, he got mad and took it personally. Did I mention that Dave was in his 70s and knew not only damn near everyone in the teapot industry, but where the skeletons in the closet were buried? As far as I know, my attacker never worked in teapots again. This is backed up by my only further contact, which was a facebook message on how I ruined his life. I don’t think that he ever understood that he did this to himself and karma just caught up with him.

    1. Czhorat*

      The fake interview for the purpose of vengeance was not a good way to handle this. You went from being a victim to becoming a bully yourself.

      Your story makes me sad.

      1. Stanton von Waldorf*

        You’re probably right. It definitely didn’t give me a sense of closure or anything else. In my defense, it was my bosses idea, and I did feel some pressure to go along with it. How much regret I feel over it seems to depend on how much my hip is aching that particular day.

        1. Czhorat*

          I absolutely don’t mean to trivialize or dismiss what happened to you; it’s truly horrific and my greater sympathies are, of course, with you.

        2. Lilo*

          Fake interview is nothing based on what he deserved: a conviction for aggravated assault, possibly attempted murder.

          1. Stanton von Waldorf*

            Four of the five were convicted of assault, for which they all got a slap on the wrist. The ringleader was the only one who got real time, as he had a bunch cocaine on him when he was picked up, and apparently he also got handsy with the cops and got a resisting arrest charge to boot. There was much schadenfreude over that one, I’ll admit.

            1. Lilo*

              I am sorry. I hope at least it was a felony which would be a big black mark on any record when they tried to get hired.

      2. Anonymous 40*

        Are. You. Kidding. Me? A fake interview to confront one of the people who nearly killed him is NOT the same thing as trying to kill someone. He did NOT go from being a victim to a bully. Falling a bit short of the Platonic ideal of the perfect human being after an experience like that does not make someone a bully. What a terrible thing to say!

        1. Stanton von Waldorf*

          Thanks for the defense, but … Czhorat has a point. I could have at least tried to be the bigger person. At the time I took a lot of glee in watching my attacker get blacklisted. These days, I have to admit there’s a lot more guilt and regret mixed in. The blacklisting just added more suffering to the world, for no real benefit that I can see. My hip doesn’t hurt any less now. The PTSD that I developed didn’t go away. Instead, I just became the guy who enabled someone else’s suffering so I would feel better.

          1. seejay*

            You know, I can admire you trying to be the bigger person and trying to do no harm (it’s how I try to live my life day-to-day) but at the same time, you can also feel good about terrible people having their comeuppance. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

            Someone who not only did such a horrible assault to you, but then had absolutely no apologies for it, to the extent that he verbally assaulted you in your place of employment? Yeahhh… please don’t feel guilt and regret for anything that happened to him, unless he ever makes a complete 180 in his life. Someone like that doesn’t deserve any of your good emotional energy. In fact he doesn’t deserve any emotional energy. :(

            1. PollyQ*

              I not only agree with this, I actually think the interview and the subsequent blacklisting are a good outcome. Clearly he has no remorse for what he did and still holds his hateful attitudes (and is willing to express them!), so shunning is an entirely deserved consequence. Really, he should have been serving hard time in prison for what he did, rather than having an opportunity to apply for jobs in the first place.

          2. AMG*

            For me, there’s something to be said for standing up and saying “this is not okay. I did not deserve what you did to me.”

            I know I am outspoken to the point of being obnoxious at times, and I am grateful that Alison is a patient person. It’s because I never, ever defended myself and now I feel I absolutely have to. Petty sometimes, and I try to strike that balance, but if you had to err on the side of confrontation, you have my understanding.

          3. Temperance*

            I’ve said this elsewhere, but the whole “be the bigger person” thing is overrated, and just enables jerks like the man who assaulted you to keep on assaulting.

            I see things like this as a natural consequence of treating others badly. It’s fine if you don’t. You’re in pain so many years later, and I’m sure that he didn’t face any repercussions other than that awkward interview.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              There are times where being the bigger person is not only ineffective, it’s just plain the wrong choice. This is because some people will not respond to bigger person reactions and it could end up making things worse. Some people you just have to say no, in whatever form that is necessary and legal. That is the only thing they understand.

          4. Tuxedo Cat*

            But he used slurs and called you a pedophile at the end of the interview, no?

            I don’t feel that sorry that he was blacklisted. It sounds like he was a miserable person who couldn’t keep it professional. What you did might have been a bit wrong, but his behavior at an interview, even for a job he didn’t want, speaks volumes.

          5. kms1025*

            To Stanton:
            You did NOT!!! If he had been remorseful or embarrassed, then yeah. He changed and now you were part of doing him dirty. But he screamed awful things at you, and at a complete stranger! What a massive A S S H A T !!! Please do not waste a bit of a second feeling bad about this guy. He had a chance to show some redeeming qualities and he piled on with more hateful B S !!!!!

      3. AW*

        I don’t think it’s fair to compare permanently injuring someone to reminding someone that they permanently injured you.

      4. Marisol*

        If someone beat me into a coma and gave me irreparable hip damage, a fake job interview is the least I’d do to them.

      5. Temperance*

        I vehemently disagree. There are degrees. Putting a jackass in an uncomfortable situation is not even in the same universe as permanently disabling someone and savagely beating them.

      6. Stellaaaaa*

        I always appreciate a different perspective on things, but I’ve noticed that you can go a bit far when being a devil’s advocate, and that’s coming from me. You can be hurtful sometimes.

        Whether or not Stanton cashed in the balance of his good will bank on this stunt is for him and his loved ones to determine. However, one has to do a lot of mental gymnastics to make Stanton’s attacker a victim in all this. Don’t act like a jerk and then act all shocked when other people find out about the stuff you’ve done.

      8. Zahra*

        As I understand, what triggered the blacklisting was NOT his pre-interview behaviour. It was his reaction at the very end.

        He could have turned white, apologized profusely and no one would think that the “fake” interview was such a big deal.

        Basically, he got a chance to react in a constructive or in a destructive way. The choice he made is not on Stanton. It’s on the bully who proved they hadn’t changed at all.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Yes, this.

          A less extreme version of what happened, here, came up in yesterday’s comments about the obnoxious student who wanted to determine if an internship was “worth his time.” xyz didn’t want to tell others because they didn’t want to “ruin” the student’s chances of getting hired for an internship. But telling someone, and then that student not being hired, would not have meant that xyz robbed that person of an opportunity. The student did that by being obnoxious and overbearing.

          Similarly, reacting the way Stanton’s assailant did at the end of the interview is what got him blacklisted—not the fact that Stanton said “ok” to his boss bringing this person in for a fake interview. That assailant’s behavior is why he’s blacklisted, and it’s unkind and inaccurate to try to pin that outcome on Stanton.

      9. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        *deep sigh*

        Inviting someone to an interview when you have no intention of hiring them is a disrespectful of that person’s time, and perhaps unkind in that you’re jerking their chain. But it is not bullying, particularly when it wasn’t your idea but you went along with it. And it is certainly not on par with attempted murder or with an assault so severe that it resulted in the kind of catastrophic and permanent injuries Stanton has experienced. I agree it’s not the best approach, and I think Stanton now knows that there’s cold comfort in trying to get closure from an interaction intended to make the other person uncomfortable or squirmy. But calling Stanton a “bully” for it is, imo, totally inappropriate.

      10. Spiny*

        It could have ended differently. His attacker could have been left with a sense of his victim as a success, and maybe lost some guilt about ruining his life.
        Instead, he is an unrepentant dick who brought this outcome on himself.

    2. Amber Rose*

      While all of that is horrible, there is no similarity here. You were horribly abused. OP was a little tactless when breaking off a friendship.

      When you say that you can’t say anything because you can’t say anything nice, what I would like to say to you is that it’s unfair to judge everyone by the standards that your past has set. I’m sure you’ve had times where you were less than kind to someone also.

      1. The Bill Murray Disagreement*

        Unfortunately – this is what happens when the background info gets buried in the nearly 1000 comments here. Stanton may be off the mark in comparing his situation to the OP’s, but we only know that because we dug through a sh*t-ton of comments to find clarifying explanation.

        1. Stanton von Waldorf*

          Exactly. When I started writing this, the OP had not yet posted to the comments section. Having read the OP’s updates, I would have written it differently, or perhaps not at all. The minimizing tone in the letter just struck a nerve, so I told my story.

          1. The Bill Murray Disagreement*

            Also – I’m truly sorry for the pain those assholes caused you. I cannot imagine a more difficult trauma to experience than being the victim of a hate crime.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        According to OP, that’s how it happened. I would imagine that Rockstar’s story would be a little different. We all remember things in different ways and most likely we’re not going to remember things that don’t cast us in a positive light. I’m not saying OP is deliberately being misleading about what happened, but I am assuming that there is more to the story that they don’t recall or don’t think is important that had a profound impact on Rockstar.

        Generally speaking, the truth of what happened falls somewhere in the middle of what two people remember. Now, I’m guessing that OP didn’t do anything remotely as horrifying as what Stanton shared, so you’re right that they aren’t exactly similar, but we shouldn’t minimize how this apparently made Rockstar feel.

        1. AD*

          Very much agreed. From OP’s own words too it was clearly more than “breaking off a friendship”.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          RockStar’s perspective is arriving something like fourth or fifth hand–it’s really not enough to conclude much of anything except that high school events resonated more deeply for her than for OP.

    3. DMD*

      That’s an awful story. I cannot imagine what that must have been like, and I don’t at all agree that doing the fake interview made you a bully. I think it was totally reasonable, given the circumstances, and it sounds like the person got what was deserved. That being said, I don’t see this as a similar situation. If we go by what OP has said, she never physically harmed Rock Star. She stopped hanging out with Rock Star and dated a boy Rock Star liked. That is very different from physically beating someone into a near coma and causing lasting physical impairment.

    4. seejay*

      Wow. This is mindboggling. All my love and sympathies for you. And I have absolutely no criticism for anything that was done in regards to a “fake” interview or any skeletons that came out of a closet. Was it petty? Eh. We’re all allowed our moments to not be a shining awesome star. Given the trauma you went through, I can certainly see the reasonings.

  146. mreasy*

    OP, I see why this is a really difficult situation. You know that you’ve changed, and given a chance to know you now, this woman would understand that you’re no longer going to treat her this way, but instead respectfully and kindly.

    But the problem is – things that happen to us when we’re in high school and earlier affect our brains in ways that aren’t totally logical, for the rest of our lives. While I imagine that logically, your potential coworker doesn’t think you would insult her, physically abuse her, or whatever you did to her in high school, at the workplace, she is self-aware enough to know that she would never be able to be comfortable revisiting her youthful trauma on a daily basis, and that your presence would force her to do that.

    And while, despite myself having been bullied, and being married to someone who suffers from PTSD as a result of violent high school bullying, I agree that you should not be hamstrung eternally in your career because of something you did in your teens – this woman also deserves not to be traumatized every day at work. And in this case, she is, as Alison mentions, a known quantity at this workplace, and you aren’t. This is very unlikely to be your bullying victim getting back at you – this is her realizing her limits, and expressing them to her employer.

    If this is the career you want, you won’t be able to work at this particular company. If that means you have to move cities, that’s what it means. That may not be “fair,” but few things are. Sometimes you date someone who ends up in a high position in your desired industry, and you have to move when you have a bad breakup. Sometimes you just can’t find a job in the place you live, and you have to move – it happens.

    I think those saying “you’re reaping what you’ve sown” are a little harsh, though I strongly believe that you could do with some self-examination as to the extent of your mistreatment of your victim(s) as a teen. But in this case, it’s plain old bad luck.

    1. Czhorat*

      Agreed.

      And there are plenty of personal situations and relationships which can get in the way of an otherwise good job. Sometimes, sadly, things just don’t work out.

      And yes, I know that’s easier for me to say.

  147. Emily the first*

    Just something to consider, OP, especially now that I have some context for the letter and have read through your comments. You’re at the beginning of your career. Most likely, you are going to be working for many many many years (something that’s both comforting and not comforting at the same time). There could be many twists and turns along the way. You are experiencing some difficulties getting started but that’s the way it goes sometimes! Given the state of affairs between you, Rock Star, and the small niche industry, it seems consensus is to move on from this company at least, and possibly industry in your current location, and worst case the niche industry as whole. And that sucks, especially when you feel like you’ve finally found your path in life. But to be forward looking, can the training you received be applied to a different industry/role? Can you parse out what parts you like from this niche industry to find other areas of interest? This isn’t the end of the world, just means you have some extra work ahead.

    1. Kfox (OP)*

      There are a lot of freelance opportunities for this skill set, and that’s how I’m getting by now. But getting into the niche industry would mean a salary – and benefits.

  148. Katie the Fed*

    I said this above, but I’ll leave it as a standalone:

    This may have as much to do with her as it does with you. Maybe she just doesn’t want to be reminded of high school on a daily basis. I was socially awkward and rather picked-on in high school. A few years ago I rounded a corner at a government office and found myself face to face with someone from high school. She was so pleasant and nice, and had never been mean to me in high school, but running into her it was like I was immediately an awkward 15-year old with no friends and terrible style and social skills. . WORLDS COLLIDING. I would not want to deal with that on a daily basis. This woman sounds like she’s reinvented herself and you working there would just be too awkward to deal with. I get that.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I think it’s like going home for the holidays, and immediately turning into your child self. It can take decades to break out of that.

      It’s even a scientific thing–that if you ask people’s friends and coworkers and spouse and kids to describe them, you get one picture. But ask their parents and siblings and it’s “Oh ever since the spaghetti incident Little Pat has been the irresponsible one. Yes, he’s now an astronaut and dedicated parent of six and all that, but he’s still our little Pat.”

    2. Nanobot*

      Wait a minute. You’re saying you’d object to working with someone who did nothing wrong to you just because she went to the same high school? People have been asking where the line is drawn, and I think it’s here.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I don’t think Katie is saying she’d blackball someone for a job for that — just describing how awkward and uncomfortable she felt in that situation, and pointing out that much of this may be about the person’s own stuff, rather than what the OP brought to it.

        1. Nanobot*

          I reread the comment and think you’re right. Apologies, Katie, for the misinterpretation.

  149. KAG*

    The comments on bullying have been very emotional and insightful, but there are (at least) two other parties’ interpretations that I haven’t seen discussed (and please forgive me if this is buried somewhere within the 768 comments; I’ve read many, but sure I overlooked a few).

    The first is that of your acquaintance, and the second is the person who mentioned that a staffer had expressed”concerns”. Now, having been given a heads-up by the acquaintance, I understand your feeling hesitant to ask for clarification of those concerns – but I think you should take the acquaintances interpretation of the situation with a grain of salt (naturally, you know her better than I, but… I find telephone games of this type tend to encourage the emotional / dramatic and quickly deviate from facts. Such as threatening to quit – that seems out of character with the successful woman you describe, especially over a high school experience. Is there perhaps something else in your work history that might give the company pause?

    As a personal note, I always felt like the bullied one in junior high – it took many years of reflection (and even more of growing up &c) to realize I was probably giving as good as I perceived I got. I’d work with almost all of my perceived bullies without batting an eyelash.

    As far as contacting her – well many people brighter than me have already weighed in on the topic.

    1. ThatUnpopularGirl*

      I disagree. As someone who was actually bullied throughout my school career, even as the successful woman I am now I would threaten to find somewhere else to work if they thought of hiring one of my old bullies. And obviously it wouldn’t hurt Rockstar’s career if she actually left because of that. From the description her credentials are so amazing that she could probably have a new job lined up in days! So no I don’t think anything got lost in the gossip wheel. I think this is all very possible.

      1. Kfox (OP)*

        I’m not sure if I’m overstating Rock Star’s credentials, but she has the kind of resume I’d kill for. The work she does for this company is public facing (the work I want to do is not), so it’s very easy to see her public profile/work.

    2. Kfox (OP)*

      I heard the “a staffer had concerns” from the person I’d been corresponding with during the hiring process when I asked for feedback on why I’d been rejected.

      That’s when acquaintance asked me to get a cup of coffee. She said she was surprised to hear it because she didn’t think it sounded like me but also genuinely likes working with Rock Star. She told me in that conversation “that Rock Star threatened to quit because Kfox was a bully.” I begged her to find out more because (I’ll admit) I couldn’t believe my chances were being torpedoed by one person from high school. She followed up – after I’d submitted this to Alison – that what Rock Star had said was actually softer than what she had been told initially.

      I knew I’d frozen Rock Star out in high school, and I did tell people she was annoying. I was actually pretty insecure back then, and I didn’t at the time see how much influence I had over our mutual friends. It took my own mother telling me – when I called her after the first coffee date – that “I probably wasn’t very nice” to Rock Star for me to see it as bullying.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I couldn’t believe my chances were being torpedoed by one person from high school.

        Something that was wisely pointed out elsewhere in the thread–variations on this happen all the time. One person from high school, from college, from an old job, from your apartment complex, from your romantic past, from the coffee shop that morning–you just usually don’t have an inside contact who explains to you exactly what it is, and so the lack of a follow-up interview is filed with the dozens or hundreds of times that happens.

        There was the tale of the guy going into his last interview, this time with the board, who made a snotty comment to the woman behind the reception desk. Who turned out to be the chair of the board, looking for a pen. So he probably realized exactly what he’d screwed up as soon as the interview started, but she could have been any number of people who have the ear of the board, and whose opinion on the candidate’s behavior was going to weigh heavily even if the candidate was charming when he knew it mattered. And if someone later told him “Yeah, you said something to Carol and the boss absolutely trusts Carol’s judgment” that candidate could have sputtered about how he didn’t even remember what he’d said and it wasn’t a big deal and how could Carol be out to get him.

        Or as put elsewhere in the thread, sometimes you burn a bridge before you know you want to cross it. And then you have to figure out a new path to get what you want, that doesn’t involve that bridge.

        1. Lilo*

          Yeah for me it wouldn’t have mattered if someone was a member of the board or not. I judge people on dates who treat waiters badly, and you can bet if you’re rude to my secretary, I don’t want to hire you.

  150. specialist*

    “I don’t think I deserve to be blacklisted for something I said when I was 17”

    Apparently your rock star former classmate does not agree with you.

  151. Gadfly*

    I am actually feeling rather bullied by many on this thread. I know it isn’t intentional, that most of the people doing it don’t realize they are being assholes, they are just following problematic social norms. Nonetheless, everytime someone wishes their bully get fat or celebrates that they got fat with vicious glee, you really are both being nasty to fat people in the moment and reinforcing the social norms that lead to me being generally and generically bullied through school and beyond. I still have strangers walk up and verbally or physically abuse me as an adult because of it.

    So yes, I get you are happy that you now are in a position to be a bully to them because they are now more socially vulnerable. If they suddenly revealed as a POC, joined a minority religion, came out of the closet, etc you would be in the same position. And mocking them for those things (which is what you are doing by savoring it as a downfall) is just as ugly. And that you hate them in particular and not me or the others you are willing to hurt to strike at them doesn’t make it any better for us.

    2. AMG*

      I’m sorry that this comment section has hurt you, Gadfly. I think this is a good reminder for us all to remember restraint of tongue and pen. It is for me. Hugs.

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Thank you for raising this (and for being brave and asking us to take a minute to take a step back). That theme has been bothering me in the comments, but I couldn’t articulate why. I really appreciate the care you took in breaking this down and sharing your personal experience so that we can all see how harmful these comments can be (and that they have a real impact on someone many of the repeat commenters respect and appreciate).

    5. Sami*

      I’ve mostly skimmed the 1000+ comments, but geez. The helpful comments have been FAR outnumbered by those that really only ought to have been shared with a family member, friend or therapist.

      1. Anon from the Depths*

        Yes! I’m only a lurker, and generally love the comments section here because I’m young and learning all about professional norms through this site. But there’s large swaths of it that are making me highly uncomfortable. People picking apart the OP’s word choice and doing this sort of calculated second guessing at her motives, or how she’s just minimizing, etc. every time she comments seem to be going way out of bounds here in a way that’s unusual for site norms. Folks who are stopping by to basically comment “schadenfreude!” or “reap what you sow!” and nothing else. Even a very recent OP in another controversial situation seemed to get much more sympathy and benefit of the doubt than Kfox did here.

        I hate to include this because I know if I don’t, someone will come by and tell me I’ve never been bullied or I was just a bystander while someone else was. I was bullied, quite badly, usually for my race, in the Deep South. High school was only a few years ago for me. And I still think a lot of comments here seem to be misplaced.

        1. Taciturn*

          Yes, this.

          While 17yo is old enough to know better – in theory – in practice, you’re still a mess of ignorance, identity crises, emotions and hormones, and being trapped in a school full of hundreds of other hormone-driven pubertal human trainwrecks just makes it all worse.

          I’m pretty sure 17yo me was a nightmare to deal with, so I feel like we should all take a collective step back here. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” sort of thing, you know?

    6. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      YES!

      I also noticed the many many many references to having triumphed by losing weight and being gleeful at Bully having gained weight.

      Even if that’s how you feel, it is still a VERY problematic thing that deserves some examination.

    7. Backwoods Ranger*

      As someone who was thin in high shool but gained 50 lbs in adulthood in spite of having a very active outdoor job, I a really glad you called out people out on this.

      I was very shy nerd in high school and spent most of my time in the library, but I am terrified of meeting up with people from high school because things like this comment thread confirm that the first thing people will think when they see me is “god how fat she is now.” I purposefully am not going to my reunion because of this, last time I re-connected with old classmates a well-meaning acquaintance told me how “maternal” I looked.

      I understand the human need to feel a sense of justice, but when I read about someone talking about how pleased they are that their bully is punished with fatness I just want to crawl into a hole and never show my face in public. It is not a pleasant feeling, and I wish some posters would choose their own words carefully especially when trying to express how harmful thoughtless words and actions really are.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        I’ve avoided both high school and college reunions recently due to embarrassment over weight gain and professional setbacks. It stinks.

    8. Not That Simple.*

      You make a very good point. I think this behaviour is related to the trauma of being bullied. It a) takes you back to that time (which can make a person behave in a more juvenile way) and b) Can freak people out.

      I’ve found this thread pretty upsetting, particularly all the people complaining that bullying isn’t that bad and Rockstar is mean. Yes actually, being bullied (i.e. ostracised, sexually assaulted, sexually harassed and physically assaulted) was bad. If it happened to an adult they’d be able to bring criminal charges. It seems to just be par for the course with children; you’re expected to suck it up and get over it.

    9. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I noped out pretty early yesterday due to this dynamic, but popped back in for a skim this morning. Thank you for saying this, and you’re definitely not alone in feeling this discomfort. I tried to say something along these lines elsewhere in the thread, but you put it better. Getting fat isn’t a punishment. It’s not karma if you teased fat kids and then gained weight later in life. And if you feel schadenfreude over, that, then fine, yes, it’s human, but don’t turn around and deny that you’re associating fatness with punishment for moral failings.

  152. Competent Commenter*

    It’s fascinating to see the different ways that childhood bullying has played out for people as adults, whether an apology was offered or accepted, etc.

    For me, I had a childhood bully who really wasn’t that bad, but he loomed very large in my memories as someone who just generally picked on and mocked me (not excusing, just categorizing). We ran into each other online in our late 30s when he recognized my unusual name, and he took me to coffee and apologized without being too specific, but in a way that made it clear he was very ashamed about his childhood behavior. He had grown up to be a very nice person, and a few things he said confirmed my adult assumption that he was being treated very badly at home at the time.

    He was a photographer and I hired photographers, so I ended up hiring him for freelance work. He was one of the best vendors I ever worked with. He was so nice, so considerate, did such a good job, and always made me feel like the most important client he had. I came to look on him as as brother. It was incredibly healing.

    I realize I’m coming in late to the game on this one but wanted to honor him and that transformation by posting. May others be as lucky.

    1. DrAtos*

      Wonderful story. Thanks for sharing. Though stories like yours are few and far between, it would be nice to hear from anyone with a similar tale where a former bully and his victims were able to make amends and maybe even become good friends.

    2. seejay*

      I agree with DrAtos, it’s nice to hear when bullies actually recognize their behaviour, without prompting, and actually atone for it and show that they’ve changed. I can appreciate that to some degree. Some of the childhood bullies I dealt with don’t appear to have done much with their lives, at least from what I can tell from FB, others I have zero idea what’s gone on with them. Someone that wronged me horribly in the past did go out of his way to apologize (without any prompting other than seeing my name show up on a mutual acquaintance list on FB) and he’d changed so much and his apology was so genuine, I did tell him I forgave him for what he’d done to me (but I also still maintained a closed-door, keep the wall up boundary with him, I related the story above).

      Some of the bullies I dealt with in gradeschool, I’d never want them to approach me to apologize though since I don’t want them to even open that door. I wish all stories could end happily but alas, the world isn’t a happy place and I’ll take the happy stories when they do show up.

      1. amy*

        Except he still kind of doesn’t. He’s like yeah, I was awful, but she should get over it and let me have what I want. I want, I want, I want.

    3. Kfox (OP)*

      I honestly feel bad that what I said and did to Rock Star clearly cut so deeply. I never really considered that she was isolated/alone in high school. She was involved in many clubs and was so successful in college I just assumed she’d kind of moved on, too.

      1. Beth*

        It sounds like you didn’t really understand/recognize the impact your behavior was having on her. It happens! But that’s not the same as you not having done anything wrong, or as her overreacting. Sometimes the impact of what we do is more important than the intent.

        It also sounds like you’re really trying to understand now, which is good to see. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and most people will make at least one big, painful one at some point in their lives; taking the time to learn from it so you can avoid repeating it is the mark of a conscientious, mature person.

        I’d still write off working at Rock Star’s company as not a possibility right now. Hopefully you can understand why by now. Get your foot in the door in this industry elsewhere (it doesn’t sound like there’s any reason to think she’s actively blacklisting you–she just happened to hear you were applying at her specific company and told her boss she wasn’t able/willing to work directly with you, that’s very different than reaching out to the industry as a whole and telling them not to hire you). If you end up running into her in the future, try to focus on being professional and let her guide whether to acknowledge your history.

        And in the future, try to remember that your actions can have unintended consequences for others, and consider what those consequences might be before acting. I’m not going to say you can always avoid hurting others (you’ll need to do things like break up with an SO, fire an employee, etc. at some point in your life), but you can avoid it sometimes, and when it has to happen, you can try to do it in a way that minimizes the hurt.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          “But that’s not the same as you not having done anything wrong, or as her overreacting. Sometimes the impact of what we do is more important than the intent.”

          I wish I could highlight this and put it right up on top of this whole thread. I get that kfox might not have intended for this classmate to be completely shut out of her social life (though kfox, the scattered comments you’ve left here are somewhat contradictory, and I think you have some more reflection to do) but even if she didn’t intend anything truly harmful, it looks as if the classmate was in fact actually harmed.

  153. Elan Morin Tedronai*

    @Alison: You might want to put a trigger warning or something at the top of the comment section, I see a lot of people getting emotional and lashing out at OP…

  154. Em*

    What jumps out at me is OP saying the rockstar called OP her best friend, but rockstar wasn’t OP’s best friend. There was a very unpopular girl in my class who would glom onto people and try to push the relationship between them into a high degree of intimacy immediately. It caused a lot of problems for her. With some people, it led to real bullying. But even if you weren’t a bully — if you were someone who would otherwise have been civil and reasonably kind (because I don’t think anyone is a bully for NOT wanting to be best friends with someone — however, you do have to be civil), she would push and cling so much that it was overwhelming and extremely off putting and there didn’t seem to be a middle option of being friendly/civil at school — either you ignored her/avoided her completely or you were BEST FRIENDS ALL THE TIME and had to be with her for EVERYTHING to the exclusion of any other friends you might have had. Not an easy situation for an awkward teenager to deal with tactfully while still maintaining some boundaries.

    So with that perspective — I could completely see this being a situation where OP wasn’t a bully, but just didn’t accept the level of friendship that the rockstar wanted, and the way she dealt with it was by pushing away from rockstar — not necessarily by doing terrible things but just not inviting her along or avoiding her if she was the sort who invited herself along to everything — and if the friend group was OPs friend group that rockstar had hooked into by virtue of her friendship with OP, then I don’t find it surprising that once OP started to put some distance between her and rockstar, that the group did so as well.

    Obviously, I don’t know, so of course there could have been social bullying as well, but I think it’s unfair to OP to assume that she must have been a really horrible bully to rockstar, especially if she can’t remember the horrible things she did.

    Regardless of what the mix was, rockstar remembers it as bullying, so I think OP is out of luck for that company.

    1. Temperance*

      OP contributed a bit in the comments here. She started excluding Rock Star from social interactions and would arrange get-togethers at her home in order to keep their mutual friends from hanging out with Rock Star (who, btw, lived across the street). She also would encourage others not to hang with Rock Star.

      So it’s a bit more than not wanting to be friends.

    2. Em*

      I guess I should add I take it that “pretty awful to her” could mean really being horrible, but it could also be an adult looking back and realizing that she could have been kinder than she was or could have handled it differently without necessarily meaning that what she did do was bullying.

    3. seejay*

      Sure, I could totally see that. Especially if Rockstar had some abandonment or mental health issues (I’m *loosely* speculating here, as I had a friend a few years ago that was like this and that was the exact diagnosis that she was given by her psychiatrist and then volunteered to me). As an adult, I had a hard time knowing how to handle the clinginess and dependency that she thrust on me, and I *did* see her as a best friend for a long time… so it’s completely 100% reasonable for a 17 year old to not have the social skills to know how to handle someone with this type of behaviour. Heck, when I was 19/20 and my best friend was having some serious mental health problems that was exacerbated by hormonal birth control, there were times I was less than “delicate” when dealing with her… I just had *no idea* what was going on and her behaviour frightened and frustrated me.

      But there is the compounded problem that the OP did more than pull away and that’s where I think this gets into muddy waters. Whether she was intentionally out to be mean or not, it sounds like she ostracized Rockstar which caused enough distress that the woman doesn’t want to associate with her 10 years later. :/

    4. Kfox (OP)*

      It wasn’t this bad. More, Rock Star was a little socially inept, talked a lot about books none of us had read, didn’t wear makeup, didn’t listen to music (I’m really, really into music), generally was a little weird, but she wasn’t the most unpopular girl at school and I wasn’t embarrassed to be seen with her.

      It’s kind of strange now because she has a very polished public persona and it hardly even seems like the same person.

      1. -Anonymous For This Post-*

        “It’s kind of strange now because she has a very polished public persona and it hardly even seems like the same person.”

        It’s almost like when smart, overachieving, awkward, bookish, kind of weird nerds get into an environment that isn’t the stifling social caste system of high school they can (and often do) blossom beautifully.

        See also: Duckling (ugly) -> Swan

  155. Scott M.*

    As someone who was bullied in school, I cannot help but read this with glee. I know it’s wrong, but I just can’t help it. Sorry.

    1. ThatUnpopularGirl*

      To be honest I’m much the same. I read the title and was incredibly excited. I’ve wished such on my past bullies… I know it sucks when you’re the bully who can’t get a job years later, especially if you have come around and seen the error of your ways back then… but at the same time it feels like Karma…

      1. Kfox (OP)*

        I know I wasn’t a good person in high school, but half of why I wrote in is because I’m terrified this woman is cackling with glee over my getting my just desserts.

        1. that lady person*

          I’ve read all your responses on this thread, and I commend you for trying to present a cohesive and bluntly honest narrative about what you did ten years ago. It sucks, trying to be a better person when you’ve made mistakes in the past. Sometimes, a lot of times, it feels grossly and overwhelmingly unfair. Unfortunately, we only get to choose our actions, not the consequences of them, no matter how long it takes for those consequences to arise.

        2. ThatUnpopularGirl*

          I doubt they’re cackling with glee. Literally or figuratively. While I would be happy to hear I don’t have to work with my high school bullies and they would have a hard time getting near my professionally, I wouldn’t be that excited about it. It would happen. I would thank management and move on with my career. Focusing on it even to cackle about “just desserts” means focusing on the bad memories we’d rather keep lock away out of mind as well as sharing said bad memories with people we know now and letting said memories enter and stain our current lives. She wants to leave that part of high school behind her. That is why she doesn’t want to work with you. She’s not going to focus on remembering it just to be vindictive/petty…

        3. Not So NewReader*

          She’s not cackling. She’s crying. Still. After all these years. And somehow, that is worse than cackling. I hope you understand.

        4. Leenie*

          I don’t think there’s any evidence that she’s cackling with glee. It sounds more like she’s just not comfortable working with you, which is her perogative. It doesn’t seem as if she’s out to humiliate you or blacklist you in the industry. She just doesn’t want to see you every day.

          Your posts have been a bit inconsistent regarding how bad your treatment of her was, or how intentional it was on your part. But really, the poorness of your behavior or the reasonableness of Rock Star’s reaction are kind of irrelevant to your current reality (although a little soul searching or checking in with your old friends might not go amiss). In the end, you should probably write this company off for now and look elsewhere.

          1. Leenie*

            I wanted to add that I really admire how you’ve been wading through and responding to these comments. It’s not for the faint of heart.

        5. nonegiven*

          I doubt that. She’s probably had a few flashbacks and cried a few times. She may have used EAP to talk to someone. She probably came to the conclusion that there is no way she could be productive with you in the building and found a way to voice her reservations so that she was taken seriously.

          I can’t imagine cackling with glee. Maybe sighing in relief.

        6. GirlBob*

          She’s not cackling, she’s miserable and upset. Social cache, which she’s worked hard to create in her industry, is a limited resource, and she’s just had to use some to keep herself safe in a place she thought her tormenter was never going to be. She’s just had to open herself up to her boss and coworkers and say “once, I was not liked”, and risk them wondering if that was HER fault. Even worse, she’s having to do it to try and protect herself from someone who once took away all her friends, and so even though she’s now in the safer position, she’s worried that somehow, you’re going to do it again.

          If you don’t understand yet that she’s doing this because working with you, for her, is so untenable that she’d rather actually LEAVE HER JOB, and not to personally cause you pain, then I don’t think you’re ready to apologise to her yet. She is not happy about this, she’s desperately wishing it could have just stayed gone.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            I’m going to fifth or sixth “She’s not cackling, she’s crying.”

            It doesn’t matter in the sense of what you do next–I think looking elsewhere in terms of geography or field or at least company is the logical move–but understanding that might make a difference in terms of understanding that an apology in the context that now you want a job at her company probably isn’t going to mend anything.

          2. Caro in the UK*

            All of this.

            I held off commenting on this post because everyone else has already given so much constructive feedback. But I really want to highlight this.

            If “half of why I wrote in is because I’m terrified this woman is cackling with glee over my getting my just desserts” is true, then you’ve just admitted that the reason that you really care about this woman’s reaction to you is because you feel it’s unfair TO YOU. You are focusing on how your past behavior has hurt YOU. Despite all of the comments on this thread encouraging you to see this situation form her perspective, you are still unable to do that.

            What this tells me is that while you may no longer be a bully, the character traits that caused you to be one (self-absorption, a lack of empathy, a willingness to look the other way while other people suffer) are still very much part of your personality. Until you can see this, accept this, and work on changing this, you really have no business seeking this woman’s forgiveness.

        7. Not That Simple.*

          The thought of working with my high school bully makes me feel like i’m going to have a panic attack. No cackling.

        8. Temperance*

          Serious question, though: why does that terrify you? Rock Star has spent years trying to undo the damage of high school, and she’s apparently very intelligent and great at her job. She sounds like a really strong person who went through a lot and came out on the other side.

        9. kms1025*

          To OP:
          This is your first comment that has given me pause. In this drama, the thing that bothers you most is that she might be happy she prevented you from being hired into the company where she has worked, and succeeded, for years??? What did you hope to gain from AskAManager??? I am not trying to be mean to you. I really wonder what outcome you were hoping for??? Even if she is gleeful (which I doubt), so what??? Were you “gleeful” when you got the guy, the friends, and the social status??? I guess I am just wondering how this forum can help you???

  157. Bullied by a town*

    I was never bullied (or a bully) by kids in school because I was homeschooled, but my dad was a (coerced) well known local elected official with an unusual name, so most of the town knew who I was. To add to the mix I’m gay and my hometown is very conservative. Rather I was bullied by other adults who felt it necessary to bring their political gripes about my dad to his child. When I got my first job at 15 at the local grocery store I found out co-workers and customers described me as (my dad’s name) f*ggot son, and that became a thing.

  158. ThatUnpopularGirl*

    As someone who was bullied throughout my school career and has come far since, I can’t imagine having to work with my past bully, even if they claim to have repented. It all just sounds like words after they’ve emotionally abused you and left deep scars on your still growing psyche…
    Once I was working retail to get through college and saw a past bully’s parents in the store. I tried to hide who I am to avoid them and her… Getting bullied is extremely damaging to people and its effects don’t just go away.
    So sorry letter writer but this isn’t really something you can get rid of and I think you need to give up on working for that company. But I’m really glad you’ve come around and become a better person, realizing your past mistakes!

  159. Jersey's mom*

    Dear OP

    You responded to the comments at least once. And quite often throughout these comments, you got attacked or have read comments from people who were happy that a “bully got what they deserved”. You are brave for asking this question on this blog and even more brave for reading (and responding directly) to the readers. But understand this: you are the only one who knows exactly what happened. Reading the responses here can sometimes help you understand and come to an answer, and sometimes — especially in polarizing issues like this — bring out the extreme anger of people who read their own issues into your letter. Your letter is one of those. Some people here are articulating their own anger at their own issues, and can project that anger onto you and your issue.

    Some of the responses are absolutely fair and may give you insight into your problem. Please try to ignore the angry commenters and pick out the responses that will help you understand what happened and your options going forward. It’s going to be tough for you to figure out what to do, but in this case, the one thing I think may help is a little time. Think about what you may want to do, why you want to do it, and especially how it will affect the people around you.

    Good luck. Sometimes a comment section can get a bit out of control on an especially emotional issue and I think you pressed a humongous button. Don’t let the nasty comments haunt you. I sent in a question (to a different blog) about a very hurtful incident and some of the angry, vindictive replies still ring in my brain — I regret contacting that blog to this day.

    1. Kfox (OP)*

      I don’t regret writing in. I think this has actually helped me see that my options at this point are different work or different location, even though I had hoped to make it work here, close to my family.

      1. Coach Laura*

        Kfox – OP

        I think I’ve read all of your replies and I’ve also read a lot of other comments. I think “bully” is a little strong when used to describe your actions as a 17yo. (To me, “bully” would at least rise to the level of a mean-girl snarkiness and requires at least some element of wishing the other harm. That is unless you are/were clueless in your actions.)

        Here’s my take on it:
        You reacted to an uncomfortable situation in a normal 17yo way and while it may not have been too objectionable on its face, it had a dramatic impact on your classmate and had a lot of unintended consequences. Most of these consequences were unpredictable. It had a terrible result for her and ruined her high school years, and I’d say most of that is not your fault. You distanced yourself, your friends reinforced that and your neighbor was shut out and lost her friend group, for which she blamed you.

        Without knowing the city/region and the type of industry, I agree with others that you may never be able to get hired in that field in that city. I would suggest making plans to get your career moving forward and when you get that next position, then reach out to your former friend/neighbor and have a dialogue if possible. If not possible, an email apology with no expectation of forgiveness may be your best option. Talking to others who witnessed the original events may be useful, maybe not useful.

        1. Tempest*

          She actively encouraged ALL their mutual friends to ostracize Rockstar as well. That’s mean girl bullying, not normal.

          I have a friend who knew my boyfriend of 15 years was cheating on me with a girl he worked with. A girl he’d introduced to me as his friend Mimi and I trusted him so much I took it at face value she was his work friend we all hung out a few times. The fact my best friend since we were six years old, who’d only known him since we were 14 or 15 kept that from me harmed our relationship. I couldn’t trust her anymore. When my relationship with cheating ex came to it’s natural end because of that (though when he and I had our conversation ending it it was because we both agreed we didn’t want to be in a relationship any more, the cheating and with who came out AFTER!) when I found out she’d known for some time? I won’t say I froze her out. I didn’t fight to keep the mutual friends. I didn’t slate her around the group. I got a second job, made a sh!t tonne of money and moved to Europe. In short me and bestie were bullied together all through school so I didn’t revisit that on her. I just drifted quietly away. I assume or like to assume she knows why. I assume she is still friends with cheating ex though I know his relationship with Mimi didn’t last long and he’s still single. I have a husband, two nice cars, a house I love and a new job I can’t wait to start in Europe and no real intention of moving home any time soon. I’m letting how I live this life I made for myself out of the wreck of the old one speak for me. I hope Rockstar is too.

          This girl didn’t drift quietly away. She systematically removed every friend this other woman had from her life and left her to graduate feeling like she didn’t have a single friend in the world. Over a boy I bet neither of them still speak to. I’m sorry but I wouldn’t want such a mean girl petty bully in my workplace either.

          I don’t think the OP deserves to be unemployable but I do think she’s really, really minimizing what she did to Rockstar here and likely in her own head, and is a very selfish person. She really is taking the comments with grace to give her that one, but she hasn’t ever said anything along the lines of ‘I likely did make Rockstar’s high school days a living hell by doing this to her and I feel terrible. She absolutely deserves her rockstar life and I won’t make her uncomfortable by continuing to try and work at her company. How do I get in touch to convey my sincere regret for what I did to her once I have a new job she has nothing to do with?’ The tone of every comment is ‘OMG I was a bit mean to her in school how do I make her get over it so I can get the job I want where I want it?!’ That’s not fair on Rockstar. OP just needs to move on and become a rockstar in her own right somewhere else. Someday if she can reflect on just how much of a bully she likely appears to Rockstar and the rest of us who’ve seen this behaviour in action, maybe she can apologize with some feeling and sincerity behind it.

          1. Lilo*

            Yeah, I am not trying to bury on the OP but her comments here do not make me feel good about her being over her mean girl ways, given the minimization and the way she describes Rockstar (like using “overachiever” for why she disliked her in high school, given that “overachiever” us why Rockstar is, well, a Rockstar.) She needs some serious self reflection because that reputation is possibly out now in the niche field, and if she’s not careful she will confirm it.

            1. Tempest*

              Honestly, I can firmly recommend moving away and starting over! It was frickin hard! I miss my mother like crazy every single day. But also, I have a new social group who doesn’t know me as that kid everyone called fat and spat spit balls at for daring to use the brain in my head.

              KFox can move to the next big city along with jobs in her niche and start to prove she isn’t that 17 year old kid anymore. Once she has a reputation that also proceeds her for all the RIGHT reasons, maybe she can invite Rockstar out for a coffee and humbly say sorry for all the RIGHT reasons. Getting everything you want on a silver platter isn’t why we should apologize.

              I like the plate analogy here. Drop a plate and it smashes. Say sorry to it. Did it come back into one piece? Nope, no matter how much you mean it, sorry doesn’t fix the cracks once you broke the plate.

              1. Zahra*

                And when it’s glued back together (before or after the apology, doesn’t matter), it’s the not the same anymore.

      2. TL -*

        For what it’s worth, I do think that this was a really unfortunate mix of normal teenage cruelty, really bad timing, and the general awfulness of high school.
        As an adult, you probably understand that you don’t know what other people are dealing with and that’s a good reason to be kind and polite, but as a teenager you were (like most teens) in the process of learning that; like you were learning to not be self-centered and like you were learning empathy (again, like most teens).

        I think Rock Star is justified in not wanting to work with you, but I also think this doesn’t sound too out-of-the-ordinary in high school – it doesn’t sound like you went on a campaign to keep the entire school or her other student groups from interacting with her and it doesn’t sound like you would make the same decisions today.

      3. MegaMoose, Esq*

        I’m glad that you’ve been able to get some good out of this thread. I see a lot of my younger self in what you’re written about both you AND Rock star. I think that it’s easy for people to take their own worst experiences and slap them onto another person’s story, without really thinking that there are always details they’re missing, and that we all have a tendency to want to make ourselves out to be right. There’s no such thing as a perfect good guy or a perfect bad guy. There’s just people. I’m sorry you have to deal with this hurdle, and I hope you’re able to find a path forward from here.

  160. Bea*

    This hurts my heart because I sank into depression into middle school and did treat others rather poorly, a lot of shunning on my end to people who were actually in my social group as well. However when I was in my later teens, I realized what a POS I was being and apologized to everyone who I was bad to. We are now still friends to this day and I’d do anything for them because they may have forgiven me but I never forgave myself.

    I wish you’d really think about this and understand that she hurts and to leave her alone at this rate, since the only reason you’re thinking about apologizing is to try to further advance yourself. I wouldn’t want to work with someone in this situation either and I’m thrilled the company is protecting her.

  161. Doctor What*

    I was bullied horribly by a guy that rode my bus, from elementary school through high school. We were kinda in the same new wave/goth group in high school (because there were like 20 of use in a school of like 2000). So we were in each other’s space even though we hated each other. He would verbally harrass me pretty much the whole time we were on the bus together, most days. I had a short fuse, and he succeeded an setting it off almost every day…

    Fast forward maybe 5+ years, I’m in a music store and I spot him. I hit full on panic mode, and pray he doesn’t see me. He does, and comes my direction and I’m like a deer in the headlights. But he came up to me and apologized…I was completely shocked! He admitted he knew how horrible he was to me throughout school and he felt really bad about it. His apology was so genuine…I knew it was real.
    Some things can be forgiven. I don’t think we can know the exact situation. If I’d found out my bully was applying for a job at my work and he hadn’t apologized, I would’ve done the same thing this woman did. She has no way of knowing the OP has/has not changed. She is just protecting herself.

  162. Matt*

    Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the Rock Star is being vindictive? After reading through the OP’s clarifications I’m not so convinced this is a case of a bullied victim distancing herself from her perpetrater. The moment the OP clarified that she started dating a guy the Rock Star liked.. that sent red flags to me. A friend of mine convinced my ex to leave me for him, and if he was in the running for a job at my work, and I had the standing to intervene, hell yeah I would. I don’t think it would necessarily be “right” but I’d do it, and I’d want to lie about him to make sure he doesn’t get the job.

    I’m not saying this is what happened, but I wouldn’t rule it out either. Still sucks for the OP.

    1. seejay*

      No, what most of us are reading is that the OP and her friends shunned her out of their social group. In “how girls bully”, this is classic bullying behaviour and it’s *deeply* scarring and damaging.

      For the most part, teenage girls get over stolen crushes. What we don’t do well with is carrying the emotional baggage of being cast out of a social group at that age. It’s very damaging at that age.

      1. Lilo*

        Yeah, OP mentioned her own mom told her she treated this girl badly. If your mom, with limited vision, thinks you were bad, well. Yeah. Chances are pretty firm you were bad.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      OP said she had applied before and nothing happened. Apparently something was only said once OP got the final round of this application. It could be vindictiveness but we don’t have enough to know for sure.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      OP told their mutual friends to stop hanging out with Rock Star. She just went and told her friends to do that, and she’s still trying to minimize it. Apologies to the OP, but I’m not convinced that, if hired, she could be trusted to work alongside Rock Star without saying something against her, since she’s resisting seeing it as a big deal. As an adult in my 30s, I still have Mean Girls saying things to me like, “Why are you friends with Megan? She’s weird. What’s her deal?” I’d keep that element out of my workplace if I could. “Wow Jenny, you have lunch with Rock Star every day. I knew her in high school. She was kinda the weird loner girl.” It doesn’t take a lot to poison the well when someone doesn’t even realize that she’s being hurtful.

      1. juinn*

        Based on the kinds of things the OP has used as excuses for why she was cruel to the Rock Star in high school I agree.

    4. snuck*

      I don’t think the Rockstar would get to that level that quick in their career if they were a petty and vindictive person more intent on sacrificing their own professional cookies to get revenge on a kid from highschool… without very good reason. If “Lauren” is being vindictive then the bullying must have been more than an understated boyfriend steal.

    5. AnonEMoose*

      I find that I really do need to say this, Matt.

      I’m sure you don’t really mean to. But you sound like every person who ever told me (and lots of other people who were bullied), that what happened “wasn’t that bad,” was just “kids being kids,” or “boys being boys.” And every person who asks the victim of an assault “are you SURE you said ‘no’?” or “What were you wearing?” or “well, why were you drinking?”

      In other words, you are doing exactly what happens to women Every. Single. Time we speak up about someone who mistreated us, harassed us, or outright assaulted us. Way too many people seem to go through mental contortions the average Cirque de Soleil performer would envy to excuse the bully/abuser/perpetrator, while putting the actions of the victim under a microscope.

      And if Rock Star is being vindictive…I’m not sure I blame her. But I don’t think she is. I think she has probably just decided that she doesn’t want to deal with OP again, and I absolutely don’t blame her for that.

  163. JillB*

    OK, I’m dying of curiosity, OP – do your parents still live across the street from her parents?!

  164. Ramona Flowers*

    Some people are saying this doesn’t sound like such a big deal as it was isolation and not, say, physical abuse. Personally I found isolation much more devastating. And just because you don’t think it sounds that bad, doesn’t mean you know better than Rock Star about how she should feel.

    I can absolutely envisage this being me. And people saying it wasn’t such a big deal. You do not get to decide that about someone else’s experiences.

  165. Chaordic One*

    I’ve heard where often times people who are bullied turn into bullies themselves, although I don’t think that is what has happened in this situation. I hope the OP will leave her former victim alone and not even bother apologizing to her at this time.

    I hope she’ll forgive herself and start re-reading the job search advice found here on AAM and find another job somewhere else where she won’t have to deal with her former victim.

      1. Lilo*

        I definitely saw it happen. When you’re participating in the punching down, no one punches you.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Or displacement–they can’t do anything about the bully abusing them (and sometimes that bully is a parent) but they can turn it around. There’s evidence that bullying tends not to come from the top of the social heap–those people are secure in their position–but from those desperate to make sure that someone else stays below them in the hierarchy.

          It’s wrong to assume that transferal is some universal explanation–I remember the ‘poor self-esteem’ theory that lasted until someone actually tested and found out bullies tend to have great self-esteem–but it is one possible answer to ‘why be like this?’

        2. not my usual signoff*

          Yeah. I saw it happen firsthand. As in I was the bullied-turned-bully against one of my fellow weirdos, which helped me claw up to unpopular-and-ignored rather than class goat. Am I ashamed of that? Yes. Was I 11 years old and no one had helped me find better coping mechanisms? Also yes.

  166. BlueBasket*

    Whether the bullying was mild, horrific or in between the outcome is still the same – the OP is effectively blacklisted. The extent of the bullying really with regard to the letter is kind of immaterial, there isn’t going to be any ‘day in court’ where the OP can set out their case of what happened versus the target’s experience of it. Even if the target were totally fabricating the entire bullying history for the lolz there is zero the OP can do about it. Bullying can change the course of peoples’ lives and tarnish it forever. OP may or may not be the villain in this case but the reality is they can’t do anything about it. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If they want to apologise that’d be nice, but will they ever get a job at this company…probably not based on how the target was affected by what happened in High School.

    Over my career as a manager I’ve been falsely accused of bullying twice by subordinates and been exonerated twice. Even with the weight of two investigations and two exonerations behind me I know my name will forever be somewhat tarnished in my industry (which is also a niche one!). Is it right, fair etc….no. Can I do anything about it? Realistically, no. OP needs to acknowledge the lack of power they have in this scenario and move on.

  167. snuck*

    Over 1,000 comments… not gonna read them all… got to a couple of hundred and decide to just say my piece:

    Here’s my thinking OP.

    This all happened 10yrs ago when you were almost adults. 17 isn’t a kid anymore, it’s not middle school, many people are starting out their early careers at this age.

    The fact that Lauren not only remembers you, but is willing to leave a highly sought after, hard to find a role in niche field, over your spat… tells me that it’s more than just a casual thing for her. She’s ten years into an illuminated, successful, high powered career. One full of industry awards. Women don’t normally climb this high, this fast, this successfully unless they are both very good at what they do, and very good at working with the people around them. So let’s assume that Lauren isn’t there because she’s pretty, but because she’s as you say “rock star material” and she’s willing to undermine all of that to never work with you again. I’d also go so far as to suggest that people who reach these sorts of heights at this age are rarely if ever ’emotional trainwrecks’ but usually very capable of professional conduct.

    The fact that you don’t really realise the importance of that, that you are so caught up in your own need to get a job at this company, your own career trajectory… that suggests to me that maybe you’ve underestimated other things, maybe the spat with Lauren was part of a pattern of behaviour, or there’s some base characteristic of your personality that she does not want to be around, or that incident was far more extended, fraught and aggressive than you remember.

    I’d cut your losses at that company. If you want to apologise do so, sincerely, and then still move on. Don’t apply there in a year or two, quietly without online cookies track her career and know when she moves on if you wish, and apply afterwards, but assume this bridge is burnt. And yes, it’s fair. If you were very awful to her (in her mind if not in yours) at 17 and you are now 27ish then it’s fair. What evidence has she that you have changed and why should she take the risk?

  168. Rand*

    “Bully” means a lot of different things. I don’t think OP really ought to share with the commentariat what it means in this case, but they should reflect personally on what type of “bully” they were.

    I didn’t grow up in the nicest part of town, and even there it was a word with a lot of range to its actual meaning. It might refer to insults, slurs, public humiliation, verbal threats. Maybe picking fights where someone gets bruised or a nose gets broken. Those things are all bad, and do real and lasting harm to people.

    But, we also used it to refer casually to other things that are, in my now-adult view, much worse and generally criminal: molestation and rape especially fell under the “bully” crime euphemism, but also drugging people involuntarily, more sever physical injuries including second and third degree burns, threatening or injuring people with weapons such as knives and guns, broken bones, stealing food and money for food (annoying as a once-off for a well-off kid, but devastating when it happens daily to a kid who’s not getting enough to eat), lying or otherwise conspiring to get others kicked out of their home or school, severe property damage (like significant car damage or house damage), and last but not least, pimping and/or trafficking people.

    I can’t really tell whether this is the kind of bullying where that’s a polite euphemism for crimes that children commit against each other, or where it’s the bullying that’s antisocial and damaging but generally not criminal. I disapprove of both, but I have a lot dimmer view of working with the high school “bully” who tried to stick his hand down my pants or the one who left a permanent burn scar on my hand, compared to working with the guy who called me a female dog repeatedly at lunch or targeted me first in dodge-ball. I wouldn’t be eager to work with any of those guys, but there’s some people who “bullied” me in high-school I would straight up quit over and try to torch the building on my way out the door out of sheer spite, and others where I’d be more like, “Not keen on that potential hire, but interested in other people’s perspectives on him.”

  169. I Know I'm Not Coming off Very Well Today*

    I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a fantasy many people who were bullied in school have run through their minds: the bully comes to you for a job and you gleefully slam the door in his face. But….that isn’t how real life is supposed to work so I suspect your treatment of this woman was completely egregious. I think just by the fact that she had this reaction to you x number of years later is a pretty good indicator that you don’t want to work for this company where she is a rockstar and you’re a newbie with a “dark past”. I’m truly sorry that this is happening to you but looking back at middle school (30+ years!), if I had the opportunity to hurt the person who made my life a non-stop living h**l, I’d still do it in a minute.

  170. anon-anon-anon-anon*

    I was ‘picked on’ constantly all my life. That’s what it was called then. I was already shy and insecure, even depressed. At my first school, there were less than a dozen in my grade. There were the boys, the mean girls, then me and the twin of one of the mean girls. (Teachers couldn’t tell them apart, the kids had no problem at all.) On the bus, it was just me and some of the mean kids along with the older kids that weren’t any better. I had a group of boys corner me at recess and look into my pants. I had older boys make me push the merry-go-round until I fell in the mud and skinned my knee when I was 6. The teacher threatened to paddle me for crying. I also once wet my pants in her class because I was afraid to raise my hand. I’m pretty sure my mom had a hand in getting that one’s contract not renewed.

    A couple of years later my mom got one of her friends to invite me to spend the night and play with one of my classmates, it seemed to go fine, but the next school day she told me she didn’t want to play with me. I was pissed at my mom.

    We moved to town midyear and by the next school year, even with 3 full classrooms of kids in my grade I was the fat, ugly weird kid that people wanted to throw things at, laugh at, say nasty things where I could hear them, trying to get a reaction. I was so introverted, pretty much all they got out of me was the ‘evil eye,’ they called it. I just withdrew more and more and tried to stay in the background and not be noticed. Then other kids decided I was stuck up because I didn’t talk much or smile or look people in the eye and I got spat on and abused by more kids. My mom went to the principal and I did have one kid try to stop it, once, when the others started in, because of the principal. That was pretty much the entire effect of asking for help, so I gave it up. Another kid, I made a fist, closed my eyes and swung for all I was worth. I hit him in an unfortunate place. He yelled about it but that one left me alone. That was still elementary school.

    I worked at not being noticed I never spoke up if I could help it. I had a teacher force me to walk to the front of the room and read a paper out loud. Every time she stopped me and told me to talk louder, I talked even softer. My whole body was shaking, I had tunnel vision and trouble catching my breath. It was like I could physically feel every eye in the room on me. I don’t know how I didn’t pass out.

    In junior high and high school, the bane of my existence was the classes with assigned seating, usually alphabetical. I’d rather sit at the side or back so there were fewer kids that could reach me and fewer could see me. I made good grades. All I did at home was homework, read books and cry. My mom started telling me it must be my fault.

    In high school apparently they make you be an usher at baccalaureate if your grades are too high. I rebelled. They wanted me to buy some formal dress and walk down an aisle in front of a church full of strangers, like even way more eyes on me. I was like oh, hell no. I didn’t say why, I just said no and stuck by it. The counselor tried to convince me it was an honor and I should want to do it, but I just flatly refused. All she got out of me was “No.” I don’t know where my grades were the next year for commencement but they didn’t bring ushering up, at least to me.

    I had other ways of rebelling. At every school assembly they did the pledge of allegiance, which I mostly didn’t have a problem with, then the prayer right after. I always sat down immediately after the pledge. I had teachers that saw me, motion for me to stand and I made my bitch face and shook my head at them every time. There was stuff in the news about schools getting sued over that stuff, that’s probably why I didn’t get punished for it.

    Finally in my senior year, there was a point where I ran out of f*cks to give. There was nothing I could do, I had no control over anything. So I started doing things, things I chose. I was out drinking with older people on weekends. Occasional mornings before school, I’d smoke a little weed. I dropped 25 pounds in a few months, we didn’t have BMI back then but I remember the numbers because I was fat, right? They always said I was fat. I must need to to drop a few pounds but I had no reference for what I should weigh. I looked at a BMI calculator, later and I went from 21.5 to 17.3.

    I was going to school like normal. The English teacher liked to call on people to read for a while then she’d call on another, then another, really no order to it, it seemed random. I hated it with the passion of a thousand suns, I’d give her as little volume as I could from the absolute back row, I didn’t want people hearing my voice or looking at me. I never looked people in the eye, maybe the chin, I always kept my head down, literally. Then one day when she called my name, I looked up, right in her eyes and said “No.” (That was the absolute end of my f*cks.) She asked why not and I said “I. Don’t. Want. To.” A month or two later one of the kids in the class told me she was afraid of me. I thought, what the hell does she think I can do? I have no power. I was surprised she didn’t send me to the principal and get me suspended or detentioned or whatever they were using for punishment. The only thing she ever called on me for again was an oral book report, to be delivered from the front of the classroom. I looked her in the eye again and said “I didn’t do it.” She had nothing to say about it, at least to me.
    Idk how I still had a gpa of 3.7 just from the homework I turned in and the tests I took, the multiple valedictorians tied at a little over 3.9. Those were the kids I should have been friends with all along but none of them had any use for me, they all looked down at me, idk I was poor, not fashionable, ugly, quiet, weird. I have never been sure. Did I do something to deserve the treatment I got? I don’t know what.

    This is why I didn’t go to college. More years of torment? Why?

  171. mcbqe*

    Huh. I’ve actually had occasion to do this. When on the hunt for a new staff member in our (quite small, everyone-knows-everyone) industry, my boss suggested reaching out to a woman whom we’d both worked with before (at different firms). I think I rather surprised him with my growl of “If she comes here, I go!”. Only to be topped by a further occasion, a few years later, where another potential candidate suggestion was met with the same “You hire her, we quit!” (in unison) by both me and another colleague. (Our boss did find it rather amusing, bless him.)

    It actually made us feel quite wanted and appreciated – as soon as our negative feedback was heard, the potential candidate was history.

  172. Blue eagle*

    Commenters blaming the “rock star” are very frustrating. It is not our right to judge the subject of any OP’s letter because (1) we are not getting their side of the story and (2) they have a right to their feelings/beliefs. I sincerely wish the commenters would stick to giving advice to the OP and not judging the subject of the OP’s letter and saying they are at fault.

  173. TheNewGuy*

    I’m late on this (also long-ish time reader, first time writer), but I just wanted to tell OP that I’m super impressed with how you’ve handled yourself in the comments here. There’s been a lot of negativity over your actions (in between some great advice to be fair), and it really isn’t easy to take all of that and continue to contribute positively in the discussion. Kudos for that, whatever the details of the bullying at high school that speaks a lot to your capabilities to learn and think about your own actions today. I like to think I’m pretty good at dealing with different points of view, but I think I’d find it really hard to keep coming back into the discussion the way you have been.

    On the question itself, provided it is genuine I’m personally of the opinion that you should reach out to Rock Star with an apology. I definitely agree with others that you need to be clear with yourself about why you’re doing it first. It’s going to come off as insincere if your goal is just to get her to stop objecting to you working there, but if you’re in a place where you know that you really feel sorry and you’re not doing it to improve your chances of getting a job then I think it’s the right thing to do.

    There’s a good chance that she’ll never be keen to work with you, but depending on how your industry works it’s possible you could still run into her other times when and if you get a job elsewhere in the industry. It’ll be good for her to know beforehand that you’re not the person you used to be should you have contact with her in such a situation. Furthermore it isn’t necessarily clear to me if her objection would be more focused on simply wanting nothing to do with you due to the bad memories, or that she thinks the person she knew would make a poor employee based on who you used to be. You can’t do much about the first one, but if the second is her main concern then her knowing you’re different now could help you in the long run.

    For myself the last few years of high school involved one of my best friends really turning on me and becoming a bully. I didn’t have much to do with him for a long time afterwards, but it was really cathartic when he owned up to feeling terrible for how he had acted and apologised. I’ll never forget the ill-treatment that I received then, but I’ve forgiven my friend and feel a lot better about it all than I did.
    I get that on the other hand there are people who never want to hear from a past bully. But if she’s in that position she’ll have already been reminded of you through the application process anyway. So on balance I’m inclined to think there’s more upside in seeing if she’s open to an apology, just be prepared to back right off if she doesn’t want to hear that.

    All the best OP, it’s a tough situation but I hope things can work out.

  174. Foxtrot*

    Maybe it’s that I’m coming at this from my experience at a fairly large high school of about 800 kids, but I don’t see how being ousted from a friend group is bullying. Does it suck? Are feelings hurt? Definitely. But I think it’s something that you need to figure out how to handle.
    I started dating pretty early freshman year and all of my friends were my boyfriend’s friends. When we broke up that summer, I had to get a new friend group. These people weren’t bullies, it’s just that the situation wasn’t working anymore.
    I’m sure there were other people who just didn’t want to hang out with me because we didn’t click. But I managed to eventually find my group. If 30-50 people don’t want to be your friend, that still leaves an entire high school of people to socialize with. If some how you can’t find ANY of those people who want to hang out with you, or even join a church group, nonschool sport, etc, then it probably requires some introspection.
    It still happens today that I’ll see Facebook pictures of events I wasn’t invited to. It stings at times, I’ll admit, but it is what it is. OP needs to accept that she’s getting the “not clicking” situation right now. But just like getting ousted from a friend group, the only possible answer is to shrug your shoulders and find a new company.

    That said, no one deserves physical abuse or excessive verbal taunting.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It’s easy to say that from an adult perspective looking back, but when you’re a teenager going through it, it can be devastating. And if you’re in a small school in a small town where you might not have other options…

    2. Temperance*

      My high school class had just over 100 people in it. This wouldn’t have been possible at my school.

      1. Foxtrot*

        My high school class was only 200, the entire school was 800. There are people I graduated with that I never even spoke to in all 4 years simply because circles didn’t intersect. It wasn’t a bullying or ostracism thing.

        1. Temperance*

          That’s totally different, though, than socially engineering a situation where Rock Star is pushed out of her friend group and loses all her friends because Kfox thought she was “annoying” and “weird”.

  175. Secret*

    I’m really put off by the piling on that commenters are putting on the OP. From the updates in the thread it didn’t seem like the issue was standard high school stuff that ended up being more serious in one person’s eyes than the other.

    With that being said, people wishing bad things on the OP or claiming amusement at the op’s situation is not only also bullying but it’s also very discouraging for other potential letter writers in this boat to come forward. Based on these comments, I don’t think it’s fair to keep dumping personal experiences on the op since a bulk of the comments do not correlate to what the op actually did [sexual assault, violence]. She simply iced this person out and her friends who have free will did the same. I’ve been a victim of that in the last 5 years and it is what is, I move on and don’t hold on to it because grudges are more poisonous to the holder.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      I think a lot of the comments were just a generalized discussion over bullying and how they would handle certain hypothetical situations. You can’t expect a comments section not to go off on tangents – it’s not realistic and will never happen.

    2. Temperance*

      I don’t think a single comment here wished bad things on the OP. Most just pointed out that what kfox described is standard bullying practice for high school girls. It’s very silly of you to claim that she “simply iced this person out” and that her friends had “free will” to do the same, when we both know how this actually works; the other girls were probably (reasonably!) terrified that their queen bee would also push them out if she decided on a whim that they were annoying, weird, or read too many books (gasp).

  176. Maswaki*

    I absolutely love what Another Alison said ”Keep the past in the past and give yourself a fresh start.”
    I wouldn’t even interview at an organization where a former neighbour works, for the sole reason that she and her husband were the worst neighbours I’ve ever had.

    My experience with living in close proximity to this neigbour left a bad taste in my mouth, I couldn’t imagine myself working with or being in close proximity to that same person again in a different setting.

    This neighbour never bullied me or anything but she had a really sour attitude that left a negative impression. My point is that the Rockstar has an even more valid reason for not wanting to work with the OP.

  177. Jumping on the Anon Bandwagon*

    Very late to this whole thing.

    But I have to say, in my teen years I was in similar situations to both OP and Rock Star.

    My friendship group at high school, we had one latecomer to the group who we didn’t really like but let hang out with us anyway for the last year or two of school, because tbh we felt sorry for her – she was socially awkward, extremely nosy, had bad personal hygiene habits which were, frankly, disgusting (and before you ask, there were no medical reasons for this, it was simply a lack of washing), and she didn’t have any other friends. I ended up “unfriending” her as it were when she stuck her nose into my PARENTS’ business after high school graduation. I was very horrible in the way I ended our friendship because I was extremely angry and my parents were extremely angry (picture a phone call telling her to mind her own business and I was only friends with her because I felt sorry for her, such a horrible thing to say to someone), and later on when Facebook became a thing I sought her out and sent her a long apology, congrats on her wedding, and wishing her well (I didn’t friend her and I never heard a response, not that I expected one).

    Every time I think of her I feel the guilty squiggle in my stomach, but I’ve apologised and don’t expect forgiveness. If I heard that she worked at a company I was applying to, I’d never apply there again, because if I were her I’d never want to see my face again.

    Conversely, at university, all but one member of my group of friends started point blank ignoring me one day, even going so far as to sit at the same table as me at mealtimes and literally blank me (they spoke to the one friend who was talking to me, interjecting into the conversation we were having, and then when I would attempt to join or continue the conversation, they’d blank my response). I ended up writing them a letter since I couldn’t get them to engage with me any other way, asking what the hell had happened, to which they responded in a horrible way, and, from the context (and from the one person still speaking to me) I surmised that the group “leader” was jealous because I was in a relationship at the time and was not entirely dependent on him for my social activities, whereas his crush was in the same friendship group but he never said anything to her and continually complained about being alone. Even knowing the reasons, that basically fucked up my university friendship group as I don’t really have one any more, and I spent the rest of my degree pretty much with no friends.

    I ended up marrying my then boyfriend, though.

    Still, I’d not be comfortable working with any of my university-friends-who-turned-out-to-be-preschoolers.

  178. Oranges*

    Op I am amazed and impressed that you are willing to read all of our comments and reply to them without being too defensive. That is incredible and tells me that you are capable of not getting trapped by your past.

    I was ostracized and bullied by lots of people. Three stand out though and if one of them were to apply at my workplace, I would play the them or me card. It would have nothing to do with them and everything to do with feeling SAFE.

    You took her safety and social group away from her in high school when she had no options and felt trapped. She doesn’t want that again.

    Please if you have any interactions with her make sure you are mindful that they should be about her needs.

  179. The data don't lie*

    I see a lot of comments here debating it OP was “really” a bully or how bad the things she did really were and if they justify this behavior from RockStar. However, what if this is about more than just bullying? There are exes I have that I would react similarly to if they applied to work at my workplace because I knew them well and I know things about them that most people wouldn’t, and interviews wouldn’t show–like that they have a really bad temper, or are very vindictive, or get jealous of people who are more successful than they are and can’t work well with them. It’s possible RockStar knows about some less desirable traits like this that the OP had during high school and that it’s not 100% about the bullying but also about other things like personality or worth ethic or temper. TBH, most people I know who frequently point out that there is a person who likes calling them their best friend but have to clarify that said person isn’t THEIR best friend are kind of stuck up. Maybe RockStar is upset about the bullying but also believes OP to be a stuck up jerk or really hard to get along with or has a terrible work ethic as well.

  180. Dankar*

    Kfox, I can’t really weigh in on the professional side of this, but I did want to throw out that I’m really sorry people have reacted to your letter so harshly!

    I think your behavior was sort of bullying, but it was also in line with the way a lot of teenage girls act at that age. I know that I was on both the receiving and perpetrating end of that kind of behavior in high school, so I can see this from both sides. In my case, that treatment wasn’t very damaging to me or any of my friends (that I know of), but that’s not the case for everyone, so keep that in mind.

    My heart hurts for you, if indeed you’re realizing that you might need to move away from family to build a career. I don’t think the fact that your being blacklisted from this company is “fair” per se, but it is the consequence of your actions in the past. That’s just the way life works sometimes, though.

    I wanted to let you know, though, that you’re not a monster. Your behavior, while hurtful and potentially damaging to the other girl, was so, so, so normal for a 17 year old teenager. I think you need to own your actions, but don’t let them bog you down forever. We all make mistakes, and it seems to me that you’ve grown beyond the person you were in high school.

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