CEO’s wife ruined my job prospects

by Alison Green on July 5, 2017

A reader writes:

I have been going through a very rigorous interviewing process for a permanent job in a firm where I have been undergoing a two-month post-college training program/paid internship which is very prestigious and only very few trainees are offered the permanent job. It would be my first proper job after finishing university. I have worked very hard during the training and have been very much appreciated by all colleagues. I have successfully passed all stages of the internal recruitment and have been told repeatedly by HR that I would definitely be offered the job. All that was left was to do a final interview with the company CEO and another director, scheduled for an early afternoon on Monday. However, everyone treated this as a mere courtesy meeting or just a sort of final formality.

On Sunday evening, I was travelling home on a packed train with my bike. Suddently, I was approached by a lady who asked me, rather rudely, to give my seat to a man, her father, who was travelling with her. Since I was sitting on a regular seat (not a seat designated for disabled passangers) and had to read some materials to prepare for my interview, I ignored her. Unfortunately, when I was getting off the train, I accidentally moved my bike in a way that it caught and left dirty stains on her coat.

I did not think much of this till the next day when I ran into the same woman and one of directors in the lift in my office building. It transpired that she is the CEO’s wife. She said nothing and did not acknowledge me, but it was very clear to me that she recognised me.

My interview that day went very well. However, I was not offered the job! I was given some feedback about the skills that I have to develop but that was all. I am not sure HR knows about the above as nobody mentioned it. The HR person who handled my recruitment was very surprised, in fact he was in shock about this. In any case, I am very disappointed as I am sure that this is the result of the said woman badmouthing me to her husband. I have worked so hard to get this job and feel it is extremely unfair to be rejected for something that has nothing to do with my performance and ability to do the job.

I am thinking that I should complain to HR and also should request the meeting with the CEO and the second director (who interviewed me) to explain myself, or maybe even to offering to pay for dry-cleaning or reimbursement of the ruined coat?

Don’t complain to HR. And don’t ask for a meeting to explain yourself. It’ll come across as if (a) you feel entitled to a job that you aren’t actually entitled to and which you might have ended up not getting for other reasons, and (b) you’re only offering to pay for the coat now because you think you lost the job over it.

It’s unlikely that this is about a dry cleaning bill. It’s more likely that this is about … well, character.

Ignoring someone who asks you to give up your seat to an older person who needs it is, frankly, pretty rude. If you had a medical need to sit there, it’s of course fine to explain that. But claiming the seat for yourself because you were reading and didn’t feel like standing is pretty crappy. And not even acknowledging the request is worse. There’s a social contract around this kind of thing — you give up your seat to someone who needs it more because of infirmity.

The bike thing was just icing on the cake. I don’t know how you handled it when you bumped her and stained her clothes, and if you were mortified and apologized profusely, okay — stuff happens that you can’t always control. But you don’t mention apologizing or interacting with her in any way.

If I were your interviewer and happened to be on that train and witnessed all of this, it would give me serious pause about hiring you. I’d worry that I had just learned something about your character (rudeness, selfishness, callousness) that in time would cause problems at work too.

This isn’t all that different from losing a job because you were rude to the receptionist. People care about how you behave to others. Sure, it’s not exactly the same as the receptionist scenario because the person you slighted was the wife of an employee, rather than an actual employee … but if they’re hearing it from a credible source, it’s fair game for it to matter to them.

You could certainly offer to pay for the dry cleaning now (framing it as “I realized that you’re married to someone whose coat I stained on the train and now that I know how to reach her, I would like to pay for the cleaning bill”), but you should offer it just because it’s the right thing to do, not because you’re trying to change the hiring decision.

The hiring decision probably isn’t changing. I know that must be hugely disappointing, but I really urge you not to see it as unfair. Rather, take it as a way to learn early in your career that manners and kindness matter, and that attempts to determine how important someone might be or might not can easily go awry.

Read an update to this letter here.

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  1. JustaCPA*

    I have to agree with Allison. If I were the CEO, I wouldn’t have hired you either. I think you were unbelievably rude, mean, callous and everything else and I would certainly not want you working for my company. Take this one as a life lesson and start sending out resumes elsewhere.

    1. JokeyJules*

      +1
      Accolades don’t trump awful character, regardless of the field you are working in (although I’m sure there are very few exceptions). As much as you’d like to blame it on an pissy wife of a CEO ruining your job prospect, do you think the wife of a CEO isn’t at least a little invested in who is working at the organization? Those were your actions on display when you didn’t think it would benefit you to be kind, courteous, considerate, or at all decent.

      1. Chriama*

        > Those were your actions on display when you didn’t think it would benefit you to be kind, courteous, considerate, or at all decent.

        That’s what I feel. OP ignored someone who was rude to her and is upset that those actions are coming back on them. OP, do you think that someone external to you, observing what was going on, would have approved of what you did? Sure they might have thought the woman was being rude to you but I don’t think they would have thought that you behaved at all appropriately in response.

        1. MJChomper*

          Just a small correction but one that makes the OP’s behavior even less desirable: OP ignored the woman on the train because she didn’t want to give her seat away to an older gent – the woman wasn’t rude to the OP.

          OP ignored the request for her seat, and then adding salt to the wound, marked up the woman’s coat and did not apologize or offer to get it cleaned the moment it happened.

          This was actually a terrific lesson to learn early on in your career, even though it sucks eggs right now. Be nice, be courteous and be compassionate to all. The end.

          1. who?*

            According to the OP the woman was rude. “…a lady who asked me, rather rudely…”

            1. scotshot*

              If the woman had gotten on her knees and begged she would have stated that she was rude.

            2. ashley*

              He stated in the update that she wasn’t actually rude and it was a legitimate request.

      2. Mabel*

        And unfortunately, OP had a chance to address things when they saw the CEO’s wife in the elevator. OP could have said something then about how terrible they felt about the situation and offered to pay for her dry cleaning. We have all done regrettable things in the past, and the best outcome is to learn from them and do better in the future.

        1. Mabel*

          I meant to add: …so I’m glad the OP wrote in for help, and I hope they can learn from this.

        2. JessaB*

          Exactly, up to that moment the OP had no idea who the woman was or how to contact her to make the proper apologies and offers to pay. If the OP had stopped right then and said something like “OMG, it’s you I am so sorry I didn’t stop you and get your information so I could pay to clean your coat. And I was so stressed, I am so sorry for being rude to you.” Before anything else happened, it might have mitigated things. Might not because the original offence wasn’t pretty, but still…

      3. bookish*

        Yup. And it’s possible OP isn’t quiiiite as great as they think they are.

        This feels like a real fairy tale/fable where OP’s character refused to help the old woman at the well and she turned out to be a witch/fairy who had the power to grant all their wishes or crush their dreams.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Wow, it really does, doesn’t it? Or a Greek myth where the gods seek help from some random person and then either bless them or curse them depending on what they did.

            1. Noobtastic*

              Thank you for sending me into an internet vortex of literary analysis that has sucked me in for a solid TWELVE HOURS.

              Links! Why do I always click the links?!

        3. MakesThings*

          This is EXACTLY where my mind went, too. Almost too perfect of a parallel! I guess the old fables have very stable tropes for a reason.

        4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It really does (almost scarily so). I don’t mean to pile on, but the way OP has framed the story is also telling. When good things happen, OP is the hero(ine) of the story, being awesome and taking names. When a bad thing happens, OP is no longer the agent, and “the said woman”—who obviously must be so petty in light of OP’s brilliance—has magically realigned the universe to ruin OP’s chances. This is not a good look for the OP.

        5. Annonymouse*

          I wouldn’t have given up my seat – but only because I’m visably pregnant. (Due any day now.)

          Otherwise as an able bodied adult I always offer my seat to older, injured or otherwise needing the seat (pregnant for example) and parents with small children passengers or at least offer to move if it would be more convenient.

          I.e if there is a parent and small child and a single seat next to me and one across the aisle I’ll move across the aisle so they can sit together.

          It is part of the societal contract and actual rules, at least where I’m from, on trains and busses to give up certain seats (there are special pram/wheelchair zones as well as seats for elderly/injured/pregnant passengers) to more needing passengers.

          School children travelling on a public bus using a free pass aren’t to sit when paying passengers stand.

          By ignoring the request you broke the rules of polite society and were really quite rude. You could have said “no” and given a reason or just given up your seat like a normal person.

          1. Emmalyn*

            As someone with an invisible disability (nerve problems in my back) and who looks young and able-bodied most of the time (when I don’t use my cane)…I appreciate folks like you who are willing to give up a seat to save me some serious pain on the trip home! And I will definitely side-eye the people who won’t give up seats to others who request them, politely or otherwise. It’s just inconsiderate.

          2. Stella's Mom*

            Where I live now too: “It is part of the societal contract and actual rules, at least where I’m from, on trains and busses to give up certain seats (there are special pram/wheelchair zones as well as seats for elderly/injured/pregnant passengers) to more needing passengers. ”

            I **love** this part of where I live and love that people here care for each other and do actually police rude teens for shoes on seats (when this happens, it is rare, most kids are ok), etc etc and offer seats for pregnant/old/handicapped/crutches-wearing folks. Most teens will get up for an older woman or man, too.

            It takes a village for damn sure and I agree with your points for the OP. Does not matter if I had a stressful day or needed to read … someone who asked for a seat and needed it should take priority to your feeling the need to ignore them. Gah.

          3. Indoor Cat*

            I wish I lived where you live.

            I have an invisible disability / chronic illness, and I *do* have a handicap placard. But I get too embarrassed to ask for a seat if the bus is full, because it’s like 50/50 if someone will say yes or if they’ll ignore me or, worse, assume I’m lying about being in pain. And the last thing I want is an argument, even though having the handicap thingy should be “proof.” So it’s like, “I guess I’ll deal with physical pain rather than possibly deal with embarrassment or an argument.”

            Plus, I think sometimes able-bodied people just sit in the disabled seating if the bus is full. I know I can’t know for sure, and I’m not confrontational enough to “call someone out,” but honestly, like, you look fine and I don’t see your placard thing, so, hey. What’s the deal.

            1. Noobtastic*

              Yeah, invisible disabilities are a real thing, and actually really common. And they don’t always come with placards, but that doesn’t mean they’re not real. Also, frequently temporary.

              A person may have a chronic condition that gets them a placard, and they need the seat. Then another person may just be having a temporary issue where standing makes them light-headed and prone to passing out (and a body on the floor takes up WAY more room, folks! We don’t like that in crowded buses and subway cars), and they need to sit down, placard or no.

              This is why good-hearted and sensible people will trust when a person says, “I need to sit down.” No explanation required, because there are so many possibilities, and it’s not our business. We just hear the word “need,” and trust that it is true. And in a case of competing needs, then a polite person judges their own current need, and if they think they can bear it (without passing out and/or otherwise causing inconvenience to everyone present), then they bear it, on the assumption that the other person’s need is greater. And if they cannot do that, because their own need is great, they seek a work-around, such as sharing the seat (yes, you may sit on my lap, if necessary) or asking someone they know to be able-bodied to give up their seat, or some such. They cooperate as best they can.

          4. Noobtastic*

            OP could have said, “I’m sorry. I also need to sit down.” Because invisible disabilities exist, and lots of people who do not visibly need to sit down still need to sit down, and the more experienced in life, the more reasons you can list for a person who seems able to stand to, in fact, need to sit down.

            The CEO’s wife probably could list half a dozen without even thinking. The fact that your reason had nothing to do with your body, but just your reading, would have been a secondary consideration in her mind. “Well, she needs to sit down because of (health) reason, and as long as she’s sitting, she may as well read.” Especially given that most adults can read standing up.

            If you had cited your need to sit down, without giving details, you would not have been considered rude, except by a self-entitled rude person, anyway.

            That’s the power of perception, here. Add in a lack of any sort of apology (let alone an offer to pay for cleaning), and OP has given the perception of a rude, careless, and uncaring person, and the CEO’s wife would warn the CEO and/or hiring manager, because a rude, careless and uncaring person would make for a bad employee, regardless of skills.

            I once had a boss who claimed he could train a monkey to do the job, and was willing to do that training. What he needed was people with the right attitude.

          5. Bouja-Bouja*

            Wading into tenuous territory here, IMO. When I’m coming home from dialysis, i don’t have a visibly big belly but I certainly need that seat more than a healthy person who is pregnant (a perfectly normal thing and not a disability), so I don’t feel good about saying that a pregnant woman has the right to expect someone to give up their seat for her – because you don’t know if they’re on their way to/from dialysis, chemotherapy, or have some other “invisible” but very real disability. It is nice if people choose to give up their seat for a pregnant woman or someone with small children, but it shouldn’t be expected because you have no idea what struggles they have and to judge them like that is unfair and just another suffering they must endure.

            However, in this case, OP, if she had had manners, would have acknowledged this woman, whether or not she was “rude” because you don’t battle rudeness with more rudeness. And, if she had acknowledged the woman, she would have seen the elderly man and it IS fair to assume that an elderly person is more likely to be suffering from some painful ailment, and she could have done the right thing and offered the seat to him.

            Integrity is always doing what’s right – even when no-one is watching. A little integrity might have won OP the job. Hopefully she will realize she’s the wrong one in this story and learn from it. Or spend a lot of time dealing with issues like these.

            1. Annonymouse*

              This doesn’t have to be an either/or situation though.

              There should be enough seats on a mode of public transport that enable us both to have or ask for a seat. And I’m more likely to ask someone who looks healthy and easily able to give up a seat (teenager, business person, person who is putting a bag on a seat and hogging an extra space.)

              If you’ve come back from a health appointment chances are you’ll look tired or disengaged and harder for me to approach.

              Pregnancy also has its own set of problems depending on which stage you are in:
              Nausea and vomiting
              Light headedness/fainting risk
              Balance problems and falling risks
              Exhaustion

              On the upside they stop after 9 months.

              But I agree there really was no reason for OP to ignore the request. If you don’t want to give a reason or excuse. Don’t just pretend there was no request. It makes you look so much worse.

      4. Green Tea Pot*

        Agree with Alison completely.

        I have to admit I was surprised to read that the OP didn’t respond when asked to give up the seat. But, as others have pointed out, there is a lesson to be learned. It’s never too late.

        Best of luck, OP.

        1. mashenzy*

          Some people are very embarrassed by unwanted, unsoliticted attention, and don’t know how to respond. I’ve had days where even an “you look nice today” caught me off guard and made me uncomfortable. Not saying OP is right or awesome for this, but it’s a possibility. Maybe they were stressed and focused elsewhere and the sudden drawing of attention to them threw them off.

          1. boop the first*

            Maybe a dragon flew in and roared so loudly that OP simply couldn’t hear her?
            Maybe OP had laryngitis?
            Maybe OP was trapped in another dimension and wouldn’t be able to respond?

            The Maybe Game is kind of fun, actually!

          2. who?*

            I think if that were the case OP would have stated it. They are quite clear that they felt they deserved to keep their seat, didn’t feel like giving it up, and ignored the woman’s request to move.

    2. Important Moi*

      I suspect the comments for this question will be harsh. I will attempt to limit the hyperbole in mine.

      The overall tone of the question is covered by Alison. This is about character.

      Maybe some self-evaluation? (or something?) as OP doesn’t seem sorry, just sorry that he offended someone he believes prevented OP from getting a job. Those 2 things are not the same at all.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        It reminds me of the letter from the person who ran into someone from high school at Target, who blanched and fled. LW asked, found out the person was still traumatized from high school bullying, shrugged, and went on. A few months later… turns out former victim won’t work with LW and desirable job at cool company is thus closed off. A heartfelt apology post-Target might have helped (or not) but ignoring that opening right up until LW needed something… the late apology just won’t land.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          (Should read, LW asked someone else amongst high school acquaintances what was up with the old classmate fleeing her presence.)

    3. DJ*

      Yep, I agree as well. That would be a huge red flag to me. I want to work with people who are kind, polite, and humble. Someone who exemplified the behaviour that the LW did (and this is their version, which would hypothetically paint them in the best light–who knows what the full story is), would be disqualified in my books.

      1. Anonymoose*

        Exactly. Had she at least given the seat up, we would be reading a very different letter today, but it didn’t even occur to her – because, reading. (wut?)

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Absolutely this—even based on OP’s version of what happened, this would have been a red flag for me, as well.

        OP, take this as a learning opportunity. The analogy to being rude to the receptionist is apt. It doesn’t matter how skilled or hardworking you are if you don’t treat people appropriately. It’s like the sign on my junior high gym wall—integrity is how you behave when no one is watching. Here, you’ve shown that you behave differently when people whose opinion matters to you are watching. Or, at best, you’re unwilling to adhere to social norms regarding the elderly/infirm on public transit unless a person satisfies your rules lawyering. Neither of those attitudes inspire confidence in a person’s integrity and character.

        If you feel like you were misjudged, then I think it would help to go forward in life remembering that people don’t get to know all of you all at once. They judge you based on interactions exactly like what you’ve described. I think you’ll be better served if, instead of focusing on the CEO’s wife or on complaining to HR, you focus on upping your game in those one-off moments to reflect the kind of person you think you are. This is a tough experience, but honestly, I’m glad you received it so early in your career when you still have time to change it.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          I really like your last paragraph especially. Excellent advice.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Thank you!

            It’s advice I’ve had to adopt in my own life. When I’m tired or stressed out, I tend not to give people the level of attention and focus they deserve, which can come off as disrespectful and disinterested. I strive really hard not to be entitled, distracted, or individually disrespectful to people, so learning that I was doing exactly those things was very painful to learn (although certainly more painful for the people on the receiving end of that conduct).

            Realizing that I needed to be mindful so my actions would reflect the values/standards I hold out for myself made me feel somewhat foolish, but it also made me reassess and adjust my behavior. I still foul it up, but I foul up less often than before, and I try to apologize promptly when I do make mistakes. I kind of wish I had known about my bad behaviors when I was in my early 20s, though, instead of in my late 20s.

            1. Lusca*

              I think you’re very wise, PCBH. Would that more people thought the same! And fwiw, when a single-serving acquiantence is rude to me, I try to consider maybe they’re having a crap day, and it keeps me from jumping to (possibly undeserved) conclusions about their character.

          2. Noobtastic*

            True, OP. You got a harsh lesson, but if you take that lesson and run with it, you have lots of time to make a successful career, and a successful life, based on that lesson.

            It’s like medicine. It doesn’t always taste good, but if it heals you, you’re glad of it, in the end.

        2. Annonymouse*

          Also a few quotes that comes to mind:

          “Judge not a man by how he treats his superiors but his inferiors”

          “The only time you should look down on someone is because you are helping them up.”

          You are at a stage in your career where character counts just as much (if not more so in some cases) as your skills.

          Your not a Dr House or Strange. Your skills are likely not so rare or exceptional that you can get away with being dismissive or even rude to those you think as less than you.

          This is a good lesson to learn now.

          1. Emmalyn*

            Also: judge someone not by how they treat their peers, but how they treat their dog.

          2. Czhorat*

            I know the discussion here is long over, but I wanted to express complete, one hundred percent agreement with this; the House/Strange/Holmes/Stark “Smartest guy in the room” character has become so very damaging to expected norms of behavior. We get a series of smart men (and they’re always men) showing complete disregard for the emotional needs of others and not only getting away with it but being regarded as heroes worthy of emulation. They rarely if ever suffer real consequences for their actions, and always come off appearing justified.

            The real world doesn’t work that way. The ability to handle an encounter with a stranger and not come across as insenstive and thoughtless? That’s a far more important skill than any job-based skillset at which you may or may not excel.

            1. Applegates*

              There’s an interesting shade of irony here. Everybody is reaching and assuming things about OP’s overall character because of one series of mistakes, probably because they know someone and this person reminds them of So-and-so the Jerk who wronged them at X time in the past. Being young and less self aware is not a serious crime, guys. It’s nice that some of you express hope that this person will grow and learn from this experience, but everyone else just seems like they’re posturing and stroking their own egos about how polite and awesome they and the people they know are. We all make mistakes, including you and me. All these comments are just beating a dead horse at this point, because Allison said it first and best. Be careful where you judge, reach, and speculate, and how about YOU practice some self awareness once in a while?

              1. Pomona Sprout*

                “Everybody is reaching and assuming things about OP’s overall character because of one series of mistakes, probably because they know someone and this person reminds them of So-and-so the Jerk who wronged them at X time in the past.”

                And I think there’s “an interesting shade of irony” in accusing others here of “reaching and assuming things” while simultaneously doing the same thing oneself.

                From what I can see, everyone (up to the point where you chimed in–I haven’t read every single response here and probably won’t have time to do so) has been doing a pretty good job of focusing on the issue of character that Alison brought up, and how one way we show what we’re made of is by being polite and considerate of others at all times, not just when we think someone whose opinion matters to us might be looking.

                We have all experienced and observed rudeness in our lives, beginning as small children. That’s how we learned what it is, how it feels to be on the receiving end of it, and why it’s wrong. It’s not just the people who are kind and fair that teach us valuable life lessins; many of us have also learned a great deal from people like “So-and-so the Jerk who wronged [us] at X time in the past.” Of COURSE we’re going to draw on those experiences (and the associated emotions) when discussing similar situations. Implying that it is unfair and/or invalid to do so is therefore nonsensical.

                Finally, your defense of OP as merely being “young and less self aware which is is “not a serious crime” comes off rather, well, defensive, imo. Reading your comment, I get the feeling that the comments critical of OP may have struck some sort of a nerve with you, and I can’t help wondering why that is.

                1. Noobtastic*

                  It’s important to learn what to do by emulating the good people of the world. It is also important to learn what *not* to do, by examining the not-quite-so-good people of the world.

                  I know a woman who is a very bad cook. Her daughter is a better cook, and once claimed that she learned her cooking skill from her mother, because her mother taught her what not to do.

                  OP got an excellent lesson in what not to do. This is valuable, to OP and to anyone reading this, who has not yet learned that lesson.

            2. NoNoNoNoNo*

              It is always men. I notice lots of commenters referring to OP in the feminine but I got a total “entitled male” vibe reading the post.

          3. Owen Bytheway*

            Also “The foot you step on today may be connected to the ass you’ll kiss tomorrow.”

  2. blackcat*

    Oof, yeah, often during busy times, there aren’t enough disabled seats for everyone who legitimately needs them. So folks have to ask for a “regular” seat if they need to sit down.

    I wouldn’t hire someone who refused to give up a seat to an elderly person, because it signals that they don’t always take the needs of people around them into account. Generally, I want to work around folks who are courteous & kind.

    1. michelenyc*

      As someone that rides the subway everyday I can tell you that there are only maybe 6 seats officially deemed for people with disabilities on each car which in my opinion is not that many considering how many subway cars there are. I am always shocked by how many people flat out ignore the disabled/elderly/pregnant when they get on the train. I would also not hire someone for being rude to others.

      2. The Optimizer*

        To refuse/ignore the request is pretty bad but to do it while taking up even more space with a bike is even worse.

        1. Ktelzbeth*

          There are systems with designated bike spaces, so it’s not necessarily taking up passenger space, except in the sense that maybe someone could sit/stand/perch on the bike rack/area if the bike weren’t there.

          1. JessaB*

            That part surprised me, where I live the busses have bike racks on the front of the bus. They can’t put them in the back because a: emergency exit and b: someone could steal one if you can’t see it out the front window. Nobody takes an actual bike into the passenger area unless it’s one of those backpack fold ups.

        2. Backroads*

          Yes, it was the ignoring that did me in. If you yourself are disabled or your invisible pet llama is sitting there, acknowledge me and let’s have a polite conversation about our needs.

          1. Yomi*

            Exactly this. I’m not to the level I use the word disabled for myself, but I am not able bodied either. There are days that standing would cause me pain and some where it would make me feel sick. Unless I am in an inside seat where it’s too difficult to get up and shift people around (stupid metro car layout) I will always give up my seat to someone who asks, even on my bad days, because if they are asking I assume they need it more than I do. I proactively will get up for people with visible difficulties, or if I’m having a good day I’ll get up so people don’t have to ask. I’m not saying this to sound like a martyr, I’m saying that all seats are disability seating and you will be leading a kinder life if you treat them as such.

            1. Temperance*

              Honestly, why would you make yourself feel worse for someone else’s benefit? There are plenty of other people who could theoretically be approached for their seat. I never, ever assume someone “needs” something more than I do.

              You have to be your own best advocate for your health. It’s fine if you don’t mind making yourself sicker/wearing yourself out, but I would advise against this course of action. Remember the post last week about “ask vs. guess” culture? There are people who will ask for things that they want and don’t need because they assume that the answer might be no. There are people who might look at you and assume that you’re healthy and fit and that they deserve to sit more than you.

              1. Yomi*

                In my case, that’s actually something I’m working on with a therapist because I almost always put myself last, but it’s also because I would rather assume people are good (being honest about their needs if they are asking for a seat) than being selfish. I take it too far, sure, but I also know so, so many people with invisible illnesses that I am mostly trying to be sensitive to the fact that I don’t know their story and it could be very bad.

                1. Temperance*

                  That’s totally fair and valid. I sort of have the opposite outlook on the world (that people will do whatever they can for themselves, including overstepping), but in a lot of ways, yours is probably better. I do strongly encourage you to do what’s best for you, though, on an individual level. While it may be true that the asker has a need, so do you, and yours isn’t less important because you aren’t able to verbalize it.

                2. Shadow*

                  When I was pregnant, I would sometimes request a seat, when I felt I really needed it. I have poor balance, and it was even poorer while extremely pregnant. If the train was too crowded, it was hard to reach the ceiling bars, and rather than fall over, it seemed smarter to ask for a seat.

                  One man glanced at me, shook his head and went back to talking to his companion. He turned bright red, which I’m at a loss to interpret – he needed to sit, but was embarrassed that he didn’t explain it?
                  One woman said “no, I’m doing my bible study, I can’t do that standing up.”
                  One man literally SHOVED past me to get on the train first, so he could take the only available seat.
                  One woman gave me her seat, but hit me with her purse because I didn’t “ask sooner,” whatever that meant. I asked within 1 stop of getting on the train, as soon as it became clear that I was even less steady than usual.
                  One man appeared to take a swing at me, which I honestly still am not sure I understood correctly. I have trouble believing my memory, in this case. Maybe he was wildly off balance?

                  All in all, if someone works up the courage to request a seat on our local lightrail system, I assume they badly need it, because why else would they take on that kind of personal risk?

                3. Annonymouse*

                  Damn Shadow.

                  I thought the person who tried to steal my hair or the one who followed me around a station after commenting lewdly on my breast were the worst you could encounter on public transit.

                  Where do you live that people think it’s ok to hit or ignore a pregnant and off balance woman?

                4. rdb0924*

                  Shadow, I presume the woman “doing Bible study” hadn’t gotten to the section that includes “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

          2. Noobtastic*

            That’s the thing. It’s not the refusing to give up the seat. You may have needs of your own. It’s the ignoring that did OP in.

      3. CityMouse*

        As a regular train rider I think it is also a good idea to stay aware of people who look like they need the seats for any reason, like they have a small child or a large bag. The train is a nicer place to be when people help each other out.

        1. Another Lawyer*

          Yes! So, so, so much nicer! It’s 100% small actions by everyone that make it a decent experience and people who are selfish in these situations stick out as especially tone deaf in my experience.

      4. The Strand*

        Please consider one thing, though – some of the people who don’t give up their seats may themselves have a disability that is not obvious.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          That’s fine, but a courteous person would still respond to a direct question instead of just playing dumb.

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            If someone was immediately hostile with me in demanding I get up, I don’t think I would engage with them. If someone asked me calmly like a normal person and it was a day I couldn’t easily stand for my whole bus ride, then yeah I would explain why I needed a seat. But I don’t need to explain myself to a stranger who’s coming out the gate with a raised voice or a nasty tone for no reason. 99% of the time people needing a seat just ask everyone nicely if someone doesn’t mind standing and someone volunteers and everyone is happy, there’s no reason to be a jerk about it and there’s no reason for me to get into it with some random person. Odds are real good that they are not going to accept my explanation anyway, since they’ve already decided they know what’s going on and I’m clearly in the wrong to them.

            The LW says the way she asked was rude, though I’m not sure what type of behavior that specifically means here. It could be “I find it rude someone would ask me to do this” or hostility like I’m describing above, and I don’t know which it was but if it were the latter I would totally understand. I’m guessing from the explanation that they were not in a disability priority seat that it was the former, though, which is… Another story.

            1. wb*

              I’m late to this discussion, but I’m astounded that this is the first comment to even ponder this. I’m 100% in the ‘rude people get ignored’ camp for subway riding. I would have, while ignoring the woman, however, asked her father if he wanted my seat. However rude she was, the father may indeed have needed the seat.

              1. MommaTRex*

                Thank-you. That is the perfect solution for when you don’t want to acquiesce to a person who is rude, but still want to do the right thing for the person who needs it.

        2. Marzipan*

          I have a problem on trains where if I’m standing, I’ll get terribly travel sick, but if I’m seated I’m fine. This is obviously particularly awkward because the fact that the train is crowded makes it really hard to reach the toilets in time if I’m going to be sick. So it’s obviously better for me to sit if possible, but you wouldn’t know it to look at me. That said, I’d absolutely give up the seat to someone unable to stand – I’ve sat in the luggage rack before, when it came to it!

        3. Observer*

          Well, a polite “I’m sorry I can’t” is very different from just ignoring the person who asks. This is especially true when the person has a bike with them, which most people will legitimately assume means that that person could stand.

          1. GermanGirl*

            Yes, it’s the ignoring that is the problem, not the not leaving (for which the sitting person could have any number of non-obvious good reasons).
            Just a polite “I’m sorry, I can’t” would have been enough.

            My musings on sitting etiquette:
            I do sit in disabled seating if nothing else is free and nobody obviously needs it, but I’ll always give it up if someone asks. I’ll also usually give up a non-disabled seat if someone asks in a non-rude way.
            Yes I’ve had random elderly strangers yell out of the blue “Don’t you know that you should give your seat to elderly people? You’re rude!” and no I don’t give my seat to people who yell at me.

            Also, if I see a family (or if I’m in a good mood even a couple) looking for seats and I sit in a 2 or 4 seat arrangement, I’ll actively offer to switch if there is an empty seat in sight (if there isn’t, they’ll have to ask).

            What I don’t do is give up my seat if I have a reservation, because my employer paid extra to reserve a seat so I could work. There are always enough seats without a reservation on the trains I use so people should ask for those seats first.

            Also, I sometimes wish people would ask the least busy person first, not the friendliest looking. I look like a nice young girl, and I’ve had people ask me to give up my seat when I’ve had a laptop or a binder full of papers to grade already out on my table/knees and some middle aged man was sitting in the next row playing on his iPhone. Honestly, people, why do you ask me in that situation and not him?

            1. JessaB*

              The problem with people who yell at you because you won’t give your seat to the elderly, is that five minutes from then you offer your seat (which you got when it emptied on the very next stop,) you get “How dare you presume that just because I’m older than you I can’t stand up?” In the exact same tone and volume as Ms “you should be ashamed of yourself.” You cannot win that one.

        4. Cercis*

          I used to sit in the “handicapped” seats on the bus because squeezing my long legs into the other seats meant that I’d have trouble walking for a while afterwards (about half a block’s worth). I always gave up my seat when needed (choosing to stand instead). But one day I was on the bus and of the 6 handicapped seats, 3 were empty. I was sitting next to my friend and we had our multiple bags under our feet (so out of the way, but not that convenient). Another friend was across the aisle from us and we were talking and visiting. I wasn’t paying that close attention to who was getting on (we rarely had many riders that time of the morning) so the first thing I hear is someone yelling at me that I have to give him my seat. I was so surprised because the seat across from me was empty and appeared to be exactly the same. I apologized and said “well, I’ll need a few minutes to gather all my stuff” and my friend across said “sir, there’s a seat here you can take” He glared at us and said “she has to give up her seat, she’s not handicapped!” and the driver said “there are *3* empty seats, quit bugging the other passengers”. He spent the rest of the ride grumbling to my friend about how rude I was and she’s like “actually I know her and she’s very nice and friendly, you just didn’t give her a chance and you were rude.”

          Later that day I had my first appointment with my physical therapist and got a knee brace. When I got on the bus that evening, my friend looked at my brace and said “OH! Now you have proof that you need the handicapped seat” and just started laughing. The others on the bus hadn’t been on that morning and didn’t get it, so we explained and they’re all like “we’ve been watching you struggle with that knee for months – thank goodness you finally took steps to getting it fixed” and all started reminding each other that just because someone is relatively young and looks “able bodied” doesn’t mean that they don’t have physical limitations that aren’t obvious. And I got a reminder that even though I thought I’d been covering my pain well, apparently I really don’t have a poker face.

          1. Themiscyra*

            Ohhh, that happened to me once. I was in one of the four or five open handicapped seats with my laptop (I’ve also always had long legs and bad knees, and nowadays I actually walk with a cane due to chronic leg pain) and an old man dropped into the seat next to me and started ranting about the fact that I hadn’t immediately given my seat to him. He had a seat, and there were multiple open seats around us. Most of them were actually closer to the front of the bus than mine. Yes, people should give up their seats to people who need them, but you’re not inherently entitled to a specific seat.

            1. The OG Anonsie*

              I’ve noticed that for some people, disability priority things are assumed to always be preemptively reserved for people with disabilities, and that’s not always how it works. Some folks will never sit in the priority seating and take sitting there at all, even if you get up, to be rude. I also know people who won’t use the handicap stall in a bathroom either, and think it’s awful for anyone else to use it in case someone who needs it* comes in. They sort of treat them all like handicap parking spaces, I guess. That leads to some conflicts in what’s considered proper/rude or not.

              That said, I’ve found the grand majority of people who assume they’re reserved to be able-bodied people assuming that’s what they’re supposed to do. I have not encountered a lot (I actually can’t think of any, but I feel like I have heard this maybe once) of other people with disabilities that expect people to do this. I’ve always sort of taken it as one of those things able-bodied people assume about disability accommodation that’s a little out of touch with reality, but I don’t know. Maybe it’s regional?

              *Which I’ve noticed they also assume only means people in wheel chairs. They’re usually surprised when I tell them that a lot of people who don’t use mobility aids need to use the support bars on the walls to get up and down.

              1. Floundering Mander*

                I recently had an encounter with one of those people who believe that all reserved spaces are always reserved even if nobody on the bus needs to use them. Busses in the UK have a sign that quite clearly says that if someone who needs the space gets on you have to move the stroller (generally folding it up or in practice getting off the bus), but if there is room that’s where the stroller is supposed to go.

                A woman got on the bus with a baby in a stroller, and another passenger started ranting and raving about how she wasn’t allowed to have a stroller on the bus and that the driver should kick her off. My husband attempted to talk to her but she was clearly very confused about a number of things to do with busses, including somehow insisting that on particular routes they aren’t allowed to stop at all (never mind the traffic jam we were caught in…). He asked how people with infants were meant to travel and she said not on the bus!

                1. Noobtastic*

                  Some people seem to hate babies so much, they’d prefer the human race just die off. But not before they get their piece of the pie.

        5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Of course. But if someone approaches you, you should at least respond to them, even if it’s to explain that you cannot move. Ignoring the person making the request, particularly when sitting is not required for medical or related reasons (as was the case for OP), is pretty rude.

        6. MsChanandlerBong*

          Thank you. I have multiple chronic conditions, none of which are immediately obvious. When I went into acute kidney failure (I had a stent put in an artery, and the dye they use is nephrotoxic, so I went from having about 40% kidney function to 19% kidney function in a matter of days), I spent most of my time in bed, but I still had to go out and pick up my prescriptions and go to the doctor. You would not know from looking at me that I was so severely ill, but it was so bad that I had to use the “mart cart” to get to the pharmacy in the back of the grocery store. I would not have been able to stand up on the subway at that time (although I would not ignore a request; I would just explain the problem).

      5. ZenJen*

        when I’m on a train that’s starting to get crowded, I’m more likely to STAND so that I can be closer to the door. when it’s crowded, I wouldn’t want to have to fight the crowd just to exit the train, esp when I have luggage or something else big/bulky. sitting would be a major pain. maybe OP should consider that, besides being less selfish/being a bit more mature in social situations. Not giving up the seat is a big deal, but the MUCH bigger deal is not trying to rectify the stains to the coat (an apology, an offer to pay for the cleaning AND giving them your cell #, since it’s basically a fender bender).

        1. De Minimis*

          Only four seats designated for elderly/disabled/etc…. that is!

          Though they keep removing seats so at one point we may see only 4 seats, period!

      7. neeko*

        To be fair, some people don’t have visible disabilities that require them to sit and someone people that you assume are pregnant based on looks might not be.

        1. Annonymouse*

          And you can explain that.
          I’ve had to explain “sorry, I’m pregnant.” To middle aged people or families who wanted my seat when there weren’t any free seats available.

          I’d of course give up my seat to someone who was older or clearly in pain or had a greater need.

          What burns me most is people who are most aware and likely give up their seats are the ones that need it and the ones that don’t give it up should be the ones who do.

        2. LizM*

          I had horrible fatigue and nausea in my first trimester, before I was visibly pregnant. I was asked to move a few times, and just told people I was pregnant and couldn’t stand for the full trip. No one ever argued with me.

      8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I think the subway is an exception just because there’s a shocking lack of politeness on most Manhattan-transversing trains. But even if you later take a PATH or Metro North, the rules re: the elderly, disabled, infirm, or pregnant all kick back in. And they certainly apply on other transit systems (e.g., D.C. Metro, the El, the T, BART, MARTA, etc.).

        Regardless, even on the subway, you don’t ignore someone who speaks a language you understand and asks you to move. Usually people ignore that a [disabled/pregnant/elderly] person exists and don’t affirmatively offer their seat to the person in need of a seat. But if someone approaches you, aren’t abusive, and you understand whatever language you’re speaking, then it’s not normal to straight up ignore them, even on the subway. It doesn’t mean you have to give up your seat, but it does mean you should at least entertain the request or respond to that person.

        1. Optimistic Prime*

          I used to live in Manhattan and was always really pleased at how polite and courteous subway riders there tended to be to other people in need, particularly if they asked.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I apologize for not being specific! I found that in Manhattan, people don’t offer up their seat. But they do tend to be courteous if you’re in need and you ask for a seat. I found that in the Bronx/Queens, the further you were from Manhattan, the more likely it was that someone would offer you their seat without being asked if they thought you needed it more than they did.

            1. Lil Lamb*

              Yep. My theory is that Manhattan is filled with people who are *not* native to New York so they think they can get away with a lack of courtesy because NY has a reputation for rudeness. People in the outer boroughs are much more likely to get up and offer their seats.

              1. Not lurking right now*

                My policy when riding on Manhattan subways (my knees tend to start aching after walking for a while, and while they can get so bad I can’t stand, they are not normally that painful) was to give up a seat if asked, but otherwise, not offer, unless someone really looked like they could not stand. I can risk having to find somewhere to collapse for a bit if someone needs a seat badly enough to ask me for one, but otherwise, it’s really troublesome.

              2. Working Hypothesis*

                I grew up in Manhattan and lived there for 20 years and in Queens for 8. Never found a difference between the boroughs in terms of courtesy, and in all of them, I found a consistent kindness and reciprocal altruism from other riders about this kind of thing.

                One of my favorite examples didn’t actually involve any obvious disabilities at all. I saw a woman who looked exhausted, carrying a small child and many packages, so I stood and offered her my seat. She smiled gratefully as she took it, and said something that was pretty obviously thanks (from tone), in a language I didn’t understand. I smiled back and stood for one stop.

                At the next station, I heard someone behind me calling something, also in a language I don’t understand — so I turned around, and found the lady’s husband across the train and a little ways up, holding a seat that had evidently just opened up, and beckoning me towards it. I had given his wife my seat, so when he found one of his own, instead of sitting in it, he offered it to me. All of this transacted by gesture and tone, among people who didn’t know how to speak any language in common, but didn’t need to.

                That’s my New York. I see stuff like that — all sides of it — every day there.

        2. Emi.*

          You don’t even ignore someone who speaks a language you don’t understand! Come on, you can almost certainly manage a confused face, even if you don’t even recognize the language.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I agree! I just think being approached in a language you don’t speak makes it a little more understandable if you freeze instead of responding or acknowledging the person. I don’t think that makes it ok, but it’s slightly more forgivable. In my experience, you give someone a confused face and proceed to try to speak using hand gestures.

      9. Not a Brexiteer*

        FWIW, I understand that in the UK it’s currently a thing among younger people NOT to give up seats on buses for the elderly, because the elderly disproportionately voted for Brexit, which the young view as a betrayal.

        1. MommaTRex*

          So many younger people in the UK think stereotyping is an OK thing to do? *facepalm*

    2. Kathleen Adams*

      The OP didn’t just refuse – that would have been bad enough. The OP completely ignored the person making the request.

      Oh, my.

      OP, I don’t want to pile on since you’re already not getting a job you really want, and that hurts. But you really just shouldn’t treat people like that. Ignoring someone who’s rude or creepy or making an outlandish request, that’s all fine. But someone making a reasonable request like this just should not be ignored. Even making up an excuse (e.g., “I’m sorry but I just twisted my ankle/I’m feeling dizzy/etc.”) would be better than ignoring someone just because you don’t want to give up a seat.

      1. CityMouse*

        Yeah I save ignoring for harassment or crazy people where I am worried about my safety if I engage.

      2. (another) b*

        Yeah when I was commuting by train sometimes I would need to stay seated because of my heels. It would kill to stand for an hour. But in that case I would explain. Tho I don’t know if this OP is a man or woman.

        1. Alli525*

          I’m derailing a touch here, but “I’m wearing heels today” is not a reason to excuse someone from giving up a seat to the elderly or disabled. I wear heels AT work, but I rarely commute TO work in heels.

          1. Ramblin' Ma'am*

            Yes, this. I keep my nice shoes in the office and wear sneakers on the subway.

        2. CityMouse*

          As a non heels wearer I have totally offered my seat to women in heels (I am a woman myself). Actually also tourists who aren’t handling turns and stops too.

        3. Broken*

          Are you serious? I am recovering from a broken ankle and leg and I cannot stand on the train and your choice to wear heels instead of flats on a train does not trump my right to not rebreak my ankle. You are as conscientious as the OP.

          1. Pomona Sprout*

            I agree. Wearing heels is a choice. Injury, illness, and disability are not matters of choice.

      3. TootsNYC*

        “Ignoring someone who’s rude or creepy or making an outlandish request, that’s all fine.”

        Our OP says the woman asked rudely–and the man she was traveling with may not have seemed old, so the request may have seemed outlandish. (Though, like someone above, I assume that no one will ask for someone else’s seat unless they actually need it.)

        “Suddently, I was approached by a lady who asked me, rather rudely, to give my seat to a man, her father, who was travelling with her.”

        Nevertheless, I agree w/ the consensus that the OP should have responded in some way.

        1. Annonymouse*

          Most company CEOs are in their 40s or 50s, maybe even older.

          Assuming the wife is between 30- 50 her father would most likely be between 60-80.

          I’d say it’s reasonable to offer up your seat to a person in that age range.

        2. Kathleen Adams*

          Yes, I know I was unclear there. My apologies. By “rudely” I meant reeeeeally rudely, e.g., using profanity or being otherwise absolutely obnoxious. Just being peremptory or brusque, particularly when asking for a favor for someone else, is not enough to justify ignoring the person. Ignoring is in this case much, much, much ruder than asking, even in a bossy and irritating way.

    3. babblemouth*

      Even people without disabilities sometimes need a seat! I once felt very dizzy in a busy train, and had to ask someone else to give me their seat. Due to how bad I felt, I’m pretty sure I wasn’t polite about it either. I’m glad they were kind enough to give it to me, or I might have passed out in the middle of the aisle.

      1. the_scientist*

        Indeed! Honestly, this is why I err on the side of politeness. It’s not going to harm me to stand for my commute. If someone is in a bad enough way that they need to ask for my seat, I’m going to give it to them, and I’m not going to ask them for a dissertation on why they need it. I’m going to assume they are being genuine in their need, and hope that some day in the future, when I’m feeling sick (or maybe when I’m gestating a human) I’ll be repaid in kind.

        OP, I’m sorry you lost this job that you wanted, but you’re young, you’re early in your career, and this can be a valuable learning opportunity for you. Please take some time for self-reflection and use this to grow.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, I will generally stand if there aren’t many seats–given the amount of people getting on and off, there will almost always be someone who needs it more than I do. The only time I didn’t was when I had a knee brace on (obvious) and had been running around all day and I really wanted that seat. But if someone worse off than me had needed it, I would have gotten up.

          If the train is crowded, I’d rather stand near the open window anyway, for the breeze. Of course, then it becomes a matter of keeping my hair from blowing all over everybody.

        2. Uberflieger*

          “Indeed! Honestly, this is why I err on the side of politeness….”

          I agree that OP should have given up her seat. But I can think of one good counterexample. I often travel long-haul by plane — usually in economy, sadly! — and I would say that on about one out of every three trips, I get a request to change my seat (which I’ve booked in advance and paid for) to accommodate someone who wants to sit by a family member. (Recently, someone demanded I give up my aisle bulkhead seat for a middle seat, so that she could sit by her sister.)

          I decline these requests and feel justified in doing so. What’s the moral difference between this and OP?

          I’ve begun declining these requests.

      2. Fiennes*

        I, too, once got dizzy on the subway, in a very crowded car. Instead of asking for a seat, I just sat down heavily on the floor – but people immediately moved to help, and someone gave up their seat to me right away. I was tremendously grateful.

        1. Annie on a Mouse*

          Are you me? I had this happen once and it took all my effort not to be physically sick, so I ended up crouching on the floor and clutching my suitcase for support. Someone immediately gave me their seat and I was so appreciative, even though I was too sick to thank them properly.

            1. Ramona Flowers*

              Whereas I once collapsed on a train and woke up to someone stepping on my face. Good times.

              1. Fellow London-er*

                I see from your later comments, Ramona, that you’re another London-er. This must be a London thing. I’ve once slumped onto a train floor because I was feeling pretty terrible and my legs were just not going to take it anymore – I just got given a ton of dirty looks. Good, good times.

                1. Bonky*

                  I’ve since moved to another city, but I was living in London in 2003 when we had that ridiculously hot summer. I fainted on the Tube on the way home from work, but the crush was so bad that I didn’t actually hit the floor until the next stop – there were so many people there that the press of bodies was holding me upright until we stopped and some people moved to get out! (At THAT point several people came to help, which I was very grateful for. The Tube’s not all bad. Although after that incident I did start adding 45 minutes to my commute and taking the bus instead.)

          2. Noobtastic*

            Hand clapped over the mouth, and eyes wide: The universal sign for “I would say thanks right now, but if I open my mouth to speak, I’ll spew.” Very convenient.

            And, yes, I’ve had to use that sign, instead of saying “thank you.” I do believe the other people understood.

      3. Brandy*

        That was nice of them. My mom (at least to me) doesn’t seem very old (a youngish 65) but she cannot stand very long or her legs will give out. She looks fine and has spurts of being fine, but after a while her legs will just start to go.

      4. Yomi*

        I’ve had the same issue a few times, though I’m never brave enough to ask for a seat. But at least twice, I’ve apparently looked awful and someone offered me a seat.

        And I’ve had people offer when I looked fine but I was having joint pain they couldn’t have known about, because they were just being nice. Those people are heroes.

    4. Artemesia*

      I am always stunned by the number of young able bodied men and women who will just sit there when an obviously elderly mobility impaired person needs a seat. I am in my 70s and have sometimes been the one who leaps up and offers when someone is on crutches or an elderly person with a cane needs a seat. Usually a younger person offers, but surprisingly often none do. It doesn’t matter if you are in a designated seat, you stand up when someone else needs the seat and particularly if someone asks you to do so. It isn’t just in the US that this boorishness occurs either; I remember having to request seats in Italy for my 80 year old obviously mobility impaired mother on the buses.

      This story is a rare case of karma actually working.

      1. Brandy*

        Judge Karen (TruTV) was just lamenting on being on a trip and (shes in her 50s I think) and she was on the airport trolly and a much older woman got on with several young children and she was the one that got up to offer her seat and help out, not the younger people. And when she was putting her carryon in the overhead bin, she had some issues getting it in as it was over her head. It was a man older then her that stopped to help her, not anyone younger.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          On the flipside, a bunch of 15 year old girls helped my wife through Chicago O’Hare with a broken foot a few years ago. It’s not young people who are the problem, it’s self-absorbed people, and those cross all demographics.

          3. RKB*

            Yes! I’m in my 20s and honestly, unless the bus or train is nearly completely empty, I always stand. It’s better for me anyway! When I had cancer, people would offer their seats to me all the time, from all age groups.

          4. Anon for this*

            I’m one of our AAM readers with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. When I’ve gotten hurt in public, teenagers and college-aged people have come to help me much, much more often than adults.

            Teenagers get a bad rap, and maybe they haven’t learned etiquette for public transportation yet, but I wanted to speak up for them!

            1. Turtle Candle*

              I think that the “haven’t learned etiquette yet” accounts for a lot of the apparent discrepancy. I know when I was younger I often kind of froze up in that sort of situation–would offering help with a bag be perceived as kind or rude (implying that he’s too weak to handle it himself)? Is offering my assistance to someone with a broken foot or a bunch of kids to wrangle a good thing or an imposition? I want to offer my seat to pregnant women but I can’t tell if she’s pregnant or not and is it going to hurt her feelings if I offer her my seat and she knows I’m offering because I think she’s pregnant but it turns out she isn’t? Etc. (Yes, I overthought everything. Still do, but I was worse at twenty.)

              As I’ve gotten older I tend to have a better intuitive sense of when I should and should not make the offer, and also a general sense that I’d rather err on the side of being overly helpful than, I guess, underly helpful. But it was just inexperience that made me freeze in some of those situations, not a lack of desire to help.

              (Of course, if someone asks, that makes the whole thing much easier!)

              1. Siberian*

                I appreciate the “haven’t learned etiquette yet” comment. When I was in my teens I did some rude things because I was too socially awkward or unsure of the social rules to know how to do the right things with grace. I knew I wasn’t doing what I was supposed to do, but was too inhibited, anxious or shy to do what I should. It made me miserable. It’s so great not to be a teenager anymore.

                1. the gold digger*

                  I wish I could go back in time and apologize to the neighbors whose mailbox I ran over when I was in high school.

                  My dad repaired it the next day, but I don’t know why he didn’t make me apologize. We even knew them!

                  I hang my head in shame.

              2. NoNoNoNoNo*

                I taught my son (he would be 30 now) to say dome verdion of “would you like/can I offer you some help [with that]/to sit?”

                It was a lesson he took to heart (eyewitnesses telling me about him at timed I wasnt present to see for myself) apparently.

                He told me it made it easier for him to feel comfortable offering help without implying anything negative.

            2. Oceans*

              Same! I donated bone marrow last year and experienced complications that made me very light-headed and weak for quite awhile afterward. On my busy commutes to work, I’d try to stand as long as I could but it was a long bus ride!

              It was *always* kids on their way to school who would offer me their seat and make sure I was okay. People my own age and older? Never. They’d just nervously look in my direction instead.

              1. Pickle*

                Yup, when I was heavily pregnant during a Tube strike in a heatwave, so the few trains that were running were even more full than usual, it was 20-something young women who pushed me through the crowds to where the seats were and shouted over the crowd’s heads, “there’s a pregnant lady over here – can someone give her a seat?”

                Over the course of the pregnancy, I found it was blue collar men, and young women, who gave up their seats to me. Men in suits? Not a chance.

            3. EAH*

              Anon for this: I’m so sorry to be off topic, but as another religious AAM reader with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome are there a lot of us here?? I was very recently diagnosed with EDS-H and I have not found anyone who has even heard of it outside of specific EDS support groups!

          5. rubyrose*

            Yes to this! I was in Salt Lake a couple of weeks ago and got on the light rail with my very heavy bag, going to the airport. A young man around 17 who was talking to his friends got up and offered me his seat. He was occupied with his friends, but he was aware of what was going on around him.

            1. Noobtastic*

              Some of the kindest people I know are still young. They have not yet been beaten into jaded submission by life.

              Also, I like the comment about “they have not yet learned the etiquette.” Sometimes, people really want to help, but overthink it, in fear that their kindness will be taken the wrong way, because they didn’t know the right way to do it, and that fear freezes them.

              We need more etiquette books for kids. Why are almost all the etiquette books written for adults?

          6. Bagpuss*

            Yes, I don’t think rudeness or being self-absorbed is limited to one age group, but I do think that ‘young people’ or ‘teenagers’ are lumped together and judged on the actions of a few, far more so than other age groups. My personal experience has been that although a teen / young person may not notice you or offer a seat, they are often fine if you actually ask or suggest it, whereas I’ve seen older people do what the OP did and deliberately ignore a request.

            When I was last travelling on the tube in London with my parents (who are in their early 70s but both in good health) my mum was offered a seat on every single train, and all those who offered were (judging by appearance) in the 15-21 age range. My dad and I were also offered seats about half the time, and again, it was always younger people and almost always young men/boys.

            London Underground do have a ‘baby on board’ badge scheme where pregnant women can request a pin-badge to wear, to help avoid the ‘is she fat or pregnant’ conundrum, and they’ve recently launched a new one reading ‘please offer me a seat’ which those who find it hard to stand can request, which I think is great for those with invisible disabilities.

            1. Ramona Flowers*

              I have the ‘please offer me a seat’ one – I was one of the first to get it as I took part in a pilot / test of it. It also clues staff in that you might need help.

              1. michelenyc*

                They are supposed to be starting the badge program on the NYC subway. I haven’t seen anyone wearing one yet so I am not sure when it actually starts.

          7. Marty*

            I think much of this has to do with maturity, which older people have had more time to develop. Certainly, some younger people avoid self absorption, but it is an attribute that tends to decline with age.

          8. Donna Freedman*

            While riding a Seattle bus I noticed a teen-age girl (maybe 15 or 16) get on with her younger sister (maybe 10 or 11). She was short on the bus fare by about 50 cents and bus driver said, “Don’t worry about it,” but by then I was on my feet with a couple of quarters.

            The older girl said, “Thank you, ma’am” and she and her sister collapsed onto the first two seats of the bus. Both looked very tired.

            Next stop: an older couple got on. The older girl leaped to her feet and, when her sister didn’t move quickly enough to suit her she tapped the child on the shoulder and said, “Move! Those older folks need a seat!”

            So yeah, it’s not necessarily age that determines decent behavior.

        2. Nevertheless*

          I think this is because people who have needed help in the past are better able to spot and see others who need help, and understand how big of a help it can be.

        3. Oceans*

          I will *always* offer my seat to someone who might need it more than I do–pregnant women, older people, someone who looks like they’ve had a reaaaaally long day at work, whatever– but far too many older individuals get offended that I’ve even offered. “What, you think I look like I can’t stand?”

          It doesn’t keep me from offering, but it sure doesn’t feel great to be chastised for trying to do the right thing.

        4. Uberflieger*

          Eh. 50s are far from elderly. Without some kind of health issue, I don’t think she can reasonable expect people to surrender seats to her.

      2. (another) b*

        In my area (Philly) I have noticed a lot of people giving up their seats and being very courteous, which is great. A few times I had to stand (with decent shoes on that day so I was ok) and a few men offered me their seat. It was nice of them but I declined.

        1. Mabel*

          I had someone offer me his seat, but I couldn’t figure out why. I think the top I was wearing that day made me look pregnant – unless I looked really tired or something that day…

            1. Rebecca in Dallas*

              Yes, I live in the South, it’s very common for men to offer their seats to women regardless of apparent pregnancy status or age! Very chivalrous, but I honestly don’t mind standing, especially if I am getting off after only a couple of stops.

            2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I was going to say this! It’s been my experience that, in some regions/neighborhoods, young men (particularly young men of color) are taught/encouraged to give up their seats to women, full stop.

              1. Emi.*

                In my area, black men (of all ages) frequently step back and let women get on the bus first.

                1. Noobtastic*

                  Yeah. Black men get a bad rap. I’ve noted a whole lot of courtesy from black men.

                  Also, if a black man sees a white person disrespecting their mother, WOW. This is a thing to which they will react.

                  And yet, so many white people, and especially white women, are taught by their white parents that these black men are dangerous and to be avoided. The bigotry still lives on. It’s just that people are usually less vocal about it in public, because they don’t want to be judged harshly as bigots. Because they KNOW it’s wrong. Or even if they think the bigotry is right, they know there will be consequences, if they are caught at it.

                  Go figure.

          2. I used to be Murphy*

            I’ve had that happen. I hadn’t been pregnant for about 18 months at the time, but you better believe I took the damn seat!

      3. always in email jail*

        I’ve had too many cases of the elderly person being offended that I offered them a seat to be proactive enough to offer it, but I would certainly give it up if they asked.

      4. orangesandlemons*

        I agree that this happens, and probably more often than it should. However, I feel it’s also unfortunate when someone assumes that a stranger is able-bodied because they are young and don’t appear to be disabled or unwell.

        1. JRAnnoyed (a little) at Past Me*

          Yep, as someone diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis 15 years ago, with my knees most affected, standing on public transit is an express ticket to Painville, specifically the Agonizing and Swollen Knees stop. When I was 18 and not obviously unwell or disabled, I got the worst looks for sitting on the subway during rush hour. I would stand when it was full rather than ask for a seat, but honestly, I should have asked. My pride should not have trumped the actual physical pain and continued injury.

        3. The OG Anonsie*

          Yeah, whenever I’ve been in a priority seat and they’re all full and an elderly person has gotten on the bus, I get very anxious. I want to shout “I ACTUALLY NEED TO SIT DOWN, I’M NOT A JERK” to the whole bus because I know there are eyes on me.

          I’ve considered keeping my cane with me even on days I didn’t need it just as a way of making an announcement, but then I have to walk with it or else the assumption will be that I’m actually actively faking being disabled…

          1. Noobtastic*

            Yeah, as annoying as the obvious markers of a non-inviable disability are, they do have a certain advantage.

            Also, I am learning to love my gray hairs, because “sweet little old lady” often gets better treatment than “young person with an invisible disability.”

            1. NightShifter*

              I broke my back 8 years ago. I have nerve damage and chronic pain that makes my right leg and foot almost entirely numb and causes severe, sharp pain in my back, especially when standing and walking. The numbness in my foot makes keeping my balance hard, especially in a moving vehicle. I’m petrified of falling now too, since something as simple as a fall could lead to paralysis.
              I have a disabled parking permit for my car, but I dread having to use buses or trains, because I don’t look obviously disabled and I look younger than I am. Even worse, my meds and my pain-caused lower level of activity have led me to gain weight since my accident, and there is soooo much judgement out there surrounding the perception of ‘lazy fat person’ that many times I have made the choice to stand rather than risk some ass making a nasty comment or a bus full of judgey-eyes.
              There are so many toxic messages in our culture. Really, life would be improved for everyone if we were all a little kinder and more forgiving of our fellow human beings.

      5. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I do agree with you that plenty of people are rude and disrespectful to those who need seating but I have to make the mandatory comment “not all (young) disabled people look disabled”

        I look and am young and able-bodied but my blood pressure tanks and my pulse spikes when standing up for long periods of time. I try to sit when I can to avoid getting dizzy and also to spare my heart. (All well under control with the help of my docs) but it’s annoying.

        I would of course give my seat up to someone obviously in need but I’m sure plenty of people have wondered why I stay seated.

        I also can’t sit comfortably on the ground – or rather, I can but I just think it’s SO uncomfortable so I always have to ask for a chair or at least something I can lean against.
        During a company retreat with meditation (on yoga mats) last year, the pregnant people and I were the only ones to sit in chairs instead of the floor.

        1. Nevertheless*

          Thank you for saying this. I have people dear to me who got sick very young with very serious illnesses that were/are not visible. I’ve had to go to bat for them on more than one occasion because an “arbiter” decided they did not look ill enough for the disabled parking spot/seat/etc. Few things make me more furious.

          1. NoNoNoNoNo*

            Im not “young” (54) but not old either.

            I have multiple invisible disabilities. I get soooo many dirty looks using my blue parking placard.

            I take -forever- to get out/in the car.
            One would think people could figure it out, but no wherlchair, no disability…apparently.

            Now, when someone has the nerve to challenge me I tell them to call a cop and just go on my way.

            I do worry someone will key my car or something, but so far so good.

        2. JeanB in NC*

          I also have to ask for chairs in floor-sitting situations – I have terrible knees and can’t get up from the floor. Even when young and skinny, I would almost always need a hand up from the floor.

          1. Professional Merchandiser*

            It’s funny you mentioning needing a hand up when sitting on the floor. In my line of work (merchandising) I am frequently sitting on the floor to reach low shelves, and standing on my tool box to reach high ones. You would not BELIEVE how many people will offer me a hand . One time I was practically bellied out on the floor trying to retrieve an item that rolled underneath, and several people thought I had fallen and were trying to help me up. I always thank them politely and explain what I’m doing. It makes me feel a bit odd if it’s someone older than me making the offer (I’m 66) but I’m glad to know there are still kind people in the world who will offer help to a stranger.

        3. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

          Ach, I realized I phrased myself in an unclear way (as usual…)

          I would OFFER my seat to someone in obvious need and I would give up my seat if someone asked me.

          (But I might not offer everyone a seat. I realize now that making assumptions like that sounds fairly ableist. But I guess for practicality’s sake, I have to assume that someone who needs a seat and isn’t offered one will ask for one. anyway. Side note.)

      6. Themiscyra*

        I had to start using a cane last year – I can go for short periods without it, and don’t usually need it at home, but do need it for extended walking or standing and sometimes stairs, so I tend to keep it with me to avoid wearing myself out. And of course some days are worse than others. It hasn’t exactly been shocking to me, but it has been disappointing to see how many people will look right at me and still stay in their seats without apology. Or how many people will brush past me and drop right into the one open seat without a word. Even when I’m shaking against my cane or straining to hold onto the straps. At this point, I don’t even really remember the people who ignore me; it’s the ones who get up who actually draw my attention.

        I suppose I could ask more, but I admit that in the war between ask culture vs. guess culture, I tend to land on the side of guess. And the cane is something I’m still getting used to and I still feel guilty somehow about even needing it.

    5. Sfigato*

      Also, a really busy train isn’t always conducive to getting work done. Accommodating other passengers takes priority over you using that time to do research/grade papers/return emails/bust out sick code. I realize it is really nice to be able to use commute time to get work done, but it’s not always possible.

  3. Dee-Nice*

    LW, what would you even say if you were to complain to HR about this? “I would’ve been nicer if I’d known the woman was the CEO’s wife?” You don’t even have any way of knowing for sure that that is in fact why you didn’t get the job. (Though I agree it certainly seems that way.)

    Does anyone else find it strange that HR repeatedly told LW that he would definitely get an offer? Is this something that happens? I’ve heard of people giving strong hints but didn’t think it was professional to tell someone they’d gotten a job before it was official.

    1. K.*

      Right – the implication is that LW would have been nice if she’d known not being nice would have negative consequences for her, which … doesn’t sound great.

      1. Antilles*

        Yep. The only other potential argument LW could make is that it shouldn’t matter – but then HR will just respond that they consider candidates as whole people and cultural fits. Which is completely legal – a company can decide not to hire you for essentially any reason they like unless that reason is specifically prohibited by law (e.g., age, gender, race).

        1. Chatterby*

          The only pushback I can see the LW exercising is if it was fairly obvious the woman had asked due to a protected status. Such as, if he was the only young man sitting in a sea of women, she may have approached him since men are culturally expected to stand and offer their seats. Or if LW was a tiny white/Asian/minority girl who was only asked to move because the woman thought she could push the LW around or felt the other passengers were too intimidating to ask.
          But this would be super hard to impossible to prove and would require a formal suit to enforce.
          If it was a government job, it might be argued that behavior outside of work falls under ‘free speech’ protections, and the CEO was in the wrong for using it against her, but again, next to impossible to hold up unless you want a drawn out, career-ruining, and extremely expensive legal battle which would end as soon as the CEO says he passed on the LW due to job skills or such, which is reasonable since it’s an entry level position. And it has long been established that private companies are perfectly allowed to police their employee’s public behavior off-hours.
          The HR complaint could be worded along the line of concern that the CEO was allowing himself to be unduly and unfairly influenced by forces outside of his company. Which would alarm HR and may result in them pulling the CEO in for a chat. But as soon as they uncover that the outside influence is his wife, rather than a competitor, HR will resent feeling stupid and the CEO will be angry.
          So yeah, nothing you can really do.

          1. Jessie the First (or second)*

            “The only pushback I can see the LW exercising is if it was fairly obvious the woman had asked due to a protected status. ”
            But…. in non-business, interpersonal interactions, this does not apply. Let’s assume for this that LW is male, surrounded on the train by women in seats, and the CEO’s wife asked the LW, specifically because he is male, to give up his seat.
            She’s allowed to do that. It’s not that “this would be super hard to impossible to prove and would require a formal suit to enforce” – it is that there is no law against people having individual prejudices. She couldn’t make hiring decisions based on gender, but she can decide to ask someone on a train to stand because he is male.

            (NOT saying that it’s great to act based on gender roles, etc – just that the anti-discrimination laws don’t address that, and there is not a suit you could bring, even if you could prove she asked him to stand because he was male)

            Sorry for the derail. Just wanted to mention. Especially because LW apparently felt, well, entitled to the job, and was looking for a way to push back, I do not want LW to get the impression that there is ANY push back that is possible.

            1. Jessie the First (or second)*

              Ack. However, I just realized LW is probably not in the US (“finishing university” sounds European to my ears), and my knowledge of non-US law is zero. So, I guess I might be totally wrong and I retract my comment. Who knows. I don’t want to speculate about what is/isn’t legal in other countries so let’s pretend my comment never happened :-)

    2. deets*

      I also found that strange, and I have never heard of a final interview – especially with the CEO! – that is just a formality. I wonder if OP read too much into positive feedback from HR / other internal folks? That’s an easy mistake to make right out of college, as is the OP’s feeling that their performance in the internship should override a poor character reference.

      1. Dee-Nice*

        Oh, that’s a good characterization of what happened: “a poor character reference.” Good performance aside, if you were evaluating an applicant and received a poor reference from a highly trusted source, it would be understandable if you didn’t want to hire that person. LW, as crappy as the situation is, maybe re-framing it in this light will help you come to terms with what (may have) happened here.

      2. CEMgr*

        My first job out of college featured a “formality only” interview with the 2 founders/co-CEOs – Dean Watkins and Richard Johnson of Watkins-Johnson. The hiring decision had already been made, but the offer was not yet extended in writing, and these two kindly old gentleman just did a really softball, “getting to know you, know that you’re joining” kind of interview. They had a firm policy to meet and speak with everyone who was joining the technical staff. I got the impression it would have been very hard to fail that interview (although still possible, I’m sure).

        So it does happen.

        1. Malibu Stacey*

          Yeah, I have worked places where it wouldn’t be unheard of. It can depend on the nature of the role and size of the company, too.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Definitely! This kind of thing happens … but if you’d, say, named-called one of them and spilled your coffee on their carpet without moving to clean it up, that might have changed the outcome. It’s basically a rubber-stamp, yes, but with the opportunity to say “hey, wait, no” if for some reason they have a strong objection.

          1. Karen D*

            Yep, I nearly blew a plum assignment with a “just a formality” lunch interview.

            Nobody told me how much the CEO’s wife detested cats.

            1. Zombeyonce*

              Now I’m intrigued. Did you take a cat to lunch? Were you wearing a sweater covered in pictures of cats? Was your shirt made of cat hair? What was it?!

            2. Anne (with an "e")*

              I agree with Zombeyonce. Please give us more “catty” details. Did you try to gift the CEO with an adorable kitten? Did you show hs wife one too many funny cat memes? Inquiring minds want to know.

      3. Artemesia*

        Nothing is ever ‘just a formality.’ You can blow the job search at any moment. This time it happened on a train.

        1. JessaB*

          I remember a game show awhile ago, it only ran for one season, and it was a bunch of people in a house doing all kinds of tasks and things. Mark Cuban was running it and the prize was a pretty hefty amount of money. The details are sketchy but he told them in the first interview/tell the audience who they are and why they’re there speech, that they would be playing this game 24/7. He disqualified one person because of stuff they did later in the show, that was not a task FOR the show, because it kind of showed the person off as an embellisher and not being honest about their talents. The person was shocked, and he showed him the tape of him explaining that he was going to judge everything, including how you interacted outside the game.

          So yes everything they are able to find out about you counts. As long as it’s not protected class characteristics, they can reject you because of the boss’ wife, or the fact you came to the last meeting in a purple dress, when the boss despises purple for some reason. A lot of people have written to AAM when they lost jobs and opportunities because of posts on Facebook (especially people in academia and K12 teachers.

      4. Peanut*

        I worked at a place where everyone had to “interview” with the CEO as a formality. In this case, candidates often didn’t meet the CEO until the first day they started at the company, and the meeting was less than 5 minutes long, more of a “hi, nice to meet you.”

        That being said, I think no one got the official offer letter until after the meeting, though salary and start date were all discussed and agreed upon before then. I suppose the CEO could still have rescinded an offer at that point, but it never happened. Maybe it was done this way because our particular CEO was a highly paid idiot.

        1. JessaB*

          Heck I got hired and worked a full shift before I met the owner of the company on one job. Partly because I had a metric tonne of experience, partly because Mr B did some temp work for him. But yep, got hired and went on shift with another agent to train me. Then I met him. Very weird. I suppose I was lucky he didn’t decide to hate me. I had already given notice at my prior job.

    3. lulu*

      I agree she should reach out to HR. But on telling an applicant that they are definitely getting on offer, I don’t find it that weird, considering she’s an intern or a trainee, so something of an inside candidate, a known quantity, and they don’t want her accepting another offer.

    4. Curious*

      Yes, my job was like this. Interview with CEO lasted ten minutes and I was told beforehand it was just a formality, which it turned out to be.

      1. AnotherHRPro*

        People often see things like this as a “formality” because in the past, this type of interview has not “vetoed” the recommendation to hire. That does not mean it is in actually a formality. It just means that generally the CEO trusts his/her people and did not see any reason to over rule. In this case, it sounds like the CEO did have additional information on the candidate which was taken into account.

        Generally, no one should EVER tell someone that they have a job offer unless you are actually presenting a job offer.

        1. Samata*

          I think another good rule for candidate is no one should every assume they have secured a job until they are actually presented with a job offer.

      2. Amber T*

        When I was interviewing (coming on as a receptionist), I was told I’d be interviewing with the CIO and CFO as a “formality” (it was described to me that they just wanted to meet me and get a feel for my character). Luckily, my recruiter gave me the advice to take it just as seriously and prepare for it as I would a regular interview, and it turned out just that. The two of them could have -absolutely- told the hiring manager not to hire me if they didn’t like me. In the interview, I was told I was the top candidate and they’d likely be extending me an offer, but they were still interviewing and needed to be in touch with my references.

        Two rules of thumb – never assume you have the job until you have the offer in your hand, and treat every interview seriously, even if it’s just a “formality.”

          1. M-C*

            Absolutely. I know someone who maintains that those ‘informal’, ‘just a phone call’ calls are not interviews. They absolutely are, and her not taking them seriously is why she has not gotten a live interview afterwards..

            1. Mallory Janis Ian*

              Yes! The phone screen is where the committee / hiring manager determines whether you are worth an in-person interview. Of course it’s serious!

              Apologies to the people who hate over-use of exclamation points, but I have a lot of feelings about this. :-)

            2. Talia*

              Yes, and I always take them seriously, but when they call you with no warning and go “Hey, this is the company you just applied to, have you got time to talk for twenty minutes about the job?” I can certainly see why someone might have difficulty treating it seriously!

          2. Artemesia*

            We did a phone screen to choose finalists for an academic position and I asked one of the candidates something like ‘one of the courses you would be handling is a leadership class in the masters program. Who are a couple of the scholars or theorists in the leadership field that you would want your students to be familiar with?’ He actually said ‘oh I didn’t know that this was going to be a test, I’d have to prepare further.’ He was trying to get a job teaching in a leadership/OD program and could not even fake it enough to discuss a couple of theorists or researchers in this broad domain. He could’t even pick someone he had read and squeeze it into the question sideways. He had a PhD in a related area. I was sort of stunned. I mean, couldn’t you come up with someone and something to a question like this in any field — it might not be a great choice, but something?

            1. JessaB*

              Wait a test? If this is the person’s field shouldn’t they know this stuff off hand?

        2. Shona*

          What with background checks and so forth, I don’t assume I have the job until I’ve been through orientation and am sitting at my new desk.

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            Ha. I assume a wee bit earlier in the process: when I have an offer letter AND a start date.

            1. Lindsay J*

              Start date, time, and location for me. Date something could still go wrong or be up in the air or they could ghost.

              Once I have all the details, I know they can’t ghost me at least.

              Though this is absolutely post-background check clearing. I have no reason to believe that I wouldn’t pass a background, but you never know.

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I’m a recruiter and I was trying to place someone in a position. They got through the first two rounds of interviews with flying colors and had a “just a formality” meeting with the CEO.

        He wore a zipped up sweatshirt hoodie over his clothes and did not take it off during the meeting. The CEO decided he wasn’t getting the position.

        1. Audiophile*

          Whaaa?!?

          I’m sorry what person hears the words “just a formality” and dresses down that much? You’re still interviewing. I can’t fathom that.

          1. Lindsay J*

            If he’s young I could see him thinking that it wasn’t any different than wearing a jacket (which, ideally, you would also take off but maybe he didn’t think he was given an appropriate time to).

            I could see myself doing this in my younger days. Wear hoodie instead of jacket because it’s cold but not that cold. Get to office, CEO meets you at the door and you shake hands. You get to the chair and he beckons you to sit down. You’re a little intimidated and awkward and don’t want to have a minute of silence go by as he waits for you to take it off and arrange it on the chair. So you keep it on instead.

            Not that any of that is an excuse, but I can definitely see it happening with a younger candidate. For a job that doesn’t require a lot of polish I wouldn’t necessarily hold it against them if I were doing the interview. (Assuming they appeared to have dressed nicely otherwise. If they’re wearing smart dress pants and shoes that’s one thing. If they’ve got on jeans and sneakers or their outfit is wrinkled or ripped or otherwise ratty looking then no.)

            However, an interview with the CEO might indicate a much higher level of position than I am used to hiring for.

      4. The Optimizer*

        I once had several interviews for an relatively low level position: one with the person I’d be replacing, the person I’d be working side by side with, the manager, her boss (VP) and the CEO. Though the CEO part was supposedly “just a formality” I would later find out that he really did have the final say in all hiring decisions. It was a small and very successful company. The CEO felt very strongly that everyone had to get along in order to keep things running smoothly and if he didn’t feel your personality would mesh with the rest, then you were out.

    5. BananaPants*

      I was a summer intern for my current employer twice, and at my final exit interview before graduation (in August), HR came out and said, “Expect to see your offer letter by Christmas.” Our interns know that this is the company’s practice. This is NOT the norm, though.

    6. neverjaunty*

      I wondered about that too. “I didn’t quite have the skills to be the top candidate, and the HR recruiter oversold my chances” may be far less personally satisfying than “that vindictive woman ruined the opportunity that was rightfully mine!” But it’s far more likely to be true.

      (I mean, for the karma story to be true, we’d need to assume that the HR person was right about the top level interview being a mere formality, that the CEO’s wife just happening to be in the same elevator led to her realizing the OP was an interviewee and giving her spouse feedback about what happened…)

      1. Elizabeth West*

        They could still be in consideration despite the lesser abilities, if someone decided they were worth taking a chance on. But even if you have mad skills for whatever the job is, you can still blow it if you aren’t careful. It’s much easier to teach someone how to do actual work than to train them to not be a jerk or a slacker or whatever.

    7. (another) b*

      Another lesson here is that nothing is guaranteed until you get that offer letter. Never assume you’re getting the job until you get the job.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I think well upwards of 90% of the time, “just a formality” translates to “most of the times this happened in the past, the top person didn’t overrule their report’s decision” rather than “there is literally nothing you can do to blow this.”

        1. Confused Teapot Maker*

          +1 and I think a lot of people learn that the hard way (or at least know somebody who has and has the message passed on)

    8. Badmin*

      I think hearing “you’ll get an offer” should be replaced with “you’ll get an offer assuming everything goes well until then (after informal interview or whatever the last step is)” Anything could happen like this letter writer’s situation, you get arrested, social media post goes viral? or any sort of curve ball.

  4. Spreadsheets and Books*

    Yikes. Being kind to others in need should be an ever-present part of life, no matter where you’re sitting.

    Take this as a lesson, LW. Character always matters, and respecting others means more than an ability to handle a few job tasks.

  5. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Amen to all of this, Alison. OP, your behavior was not nice, to say the least, and how one behaves in public among strangers can be a real indicator of their character. I used to work in Times Square, and anyone who walks through there on a regular basis knows how trying it can be. I remember very clearly the day I realized that if I said something rude to a stranger and an SVP walked by, it could reflect really poorly on me even outside the building. If I were interviewing someone and he/she was rude to the waitstaff, that would be a mark against the candidate.

    I do question whether this is the sole or primary reason you didn’t get the job– there could be other factors at play– but as Alison says, this is a great lesson in how to conduct oneself professionally while out in the world.

    1. CM*

      Yes, I used to be a road-ragey driver in my early 20s and once gave somebody the middle finger… only to see them pull into my work parking lot right in front of me! I hid in my car for a few minutes before going into the building so they wouldn’t see me, and learned that day to be much more polite to strangers. I was lucky that there were no consequences other than feeling ashamed and embarrassed.

  6. What time is it? Showtime*

    “Suddenly, I was approached by a lady who asked me, rather rudely, to give my seat to a man, her father, who was travelling with her.”

    There’s nothing here that says the man was infirm. It seems like the woman just wanted a seat for her father, and she asked for the seat rudely. I have to say, unless I saw that the man was elderly, injured or seemed unable to balance well, I probably would have ignored the request too. My desire to sit there is as strong as your desire for your father to sit there. There are ways to nicely ask someone if they’ll give up their seats. Rudeness is not one of those ways.

    1. Here we go again*

      This stood out to me too. If someone else started the rudeness, I totally get why OP reacted the way she did. It sucks that it’s such a small world, but I can’t fault the OP for being miffed about all of this and not caring about how she treated the wife, since it seems like the wife started it.

        1. Here we go again*

          I agree it’s not, but people don’t always act rationally when confronted in these situations because they are thrown off guard.

          There are also a lot of assumptions about how old the father “must be,” how old the wife “must be” based on the how old the CEO “must be” that people are ignoring the fact that based on the OP’s account, the other woman did start it.

          It sucks for the OP and I think it is a good lesson for her, but I do think people are being harsh given what we **know**…

        2. Kathleen Adams*

          Refusing the seat to an elderly man is bad…but completely ignoring the person making the request is worse. Much worse. By doing that, you’re saying “Your request is of so little importance to me that I’m not even going to acknowledge it.” That’s…pretty cold, IMO. You can with perfect propriety ignore guys whistling at you on the street, aggressive begging, or other outlandish requests. But someone asking for a seat for someone else, even if they do so rather brusquely? No.

          1. EleonoraUK*

            This – refusing to give up your seat is selfish, but not even responding is just plain rude. Not a great mix.

            1. Stop That Goat*

              Ignoring someone being rude to you in the first place doesn’t strike me as that odd.

              1. CityMouse*

                Even if the person they are asking for needs help? Say someone rudely asks you where the bathroom is for their kid. You going to let the kid suffer because mom or dad didn’t ask in a way you liked?

              2. Natalie*

                I would find it quite odd to ignore a direct question because the person was rude, assuming they were within the standard spectrum of rudeness and not screaming obscenities the second they opened their mouth. If someone is at the level of warranting the cut direct, I probably wouldn’t even think of them as “rude”, per se.

              3. Mike B.*

                Even if someone is barking orders at you, as an able-bodied and healthy person, your response should be to agree. She might be overstating how much her father needs to sit, or he might be doing a good job of concealing how difficult it is for him to stand.

                Her perceived rudeness was not relevant to whether her father needed that seat. Refusing the request was even more egregious.

                If they had had this exchange in some other context not involving the woman’s father, though, it still might have ended up the same way for OP. It’s a poor idea to return rudeness with rudeness, because “they started it” is not an excuse that hiring managers are likely to accept.

              1. Kathleen Adams*

                There I disagree with you. There are times when people are “entitled” to your time. Maybe this is one of them, maybe it is not (I think it is, but there is some room for disagreement there), but if someone has a reasonable request, I think you do indeed owe them the courtesy of a response.

                Is this a big city vs. smaller city town thing? I don’t think so, but maybe so.

      2. Kms1025*

        We’re taking the rude person’s word that they were approached rudely? I am sorry but their point of view is suspect but their actions speak for themselves, quite loudly. And I don’t believe in coincidences, but “coincidentally” the intern bumped this very same person with a greasy bike? C’mon!

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Exactly. I know we give OP’s the benefit of the doubt, but (1) there are several scenarios in which it’s possible that the woman was not rude, at least not on the level of OP’s reaction, or (2) despite brusqueness/rudeness, the OP’s reaction was still inappropriate. I feel like we have an unreliable narrator on this letter.

        2. Sas*

          No, Kms, people are taking the letter writer at their word as they have been requested to do so. That is truly why this blog bothers me. It is one sided to an extreme sometimes.
          I am on the side of people saying they wouldn’t respond to a rude request. I don’t know where you all live but people do that ALL THE TIME WHERE I LIVE. Right? Wrong? Are you ever ignoring people when you have had a rough day? Ever? Most people do that sort of thing when they know the person even. The Ceo wife could have taken a cab. There are other options. Which isn’t to say they should have to. If you are on a bus, also, bikes, coats, things might touch you. The wife seems like the inappropriate one. Not to get that buses have these problems, engaging with the public doesn’t have problems. Who later assumes the worst from one moment when they were also rude and takes that so far as to not give someone an opportunity for a job. Yikes! Maybe she is free of sin!

    2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I agree that it’s not great that the request was made rudely, but an infirmity doesn’t need to be visible to be legitimate.

      1. Edith*

        And we’ll never know because instead of speaking to the woman the OP just ignored her, which to me is the real problem.

        1. What time is it? Showtime*

          You run into enough rude people on the train who like to escalate stuff, you learn that ignoring them is often the easier way to go.

            1. Spreadsheets and Books*

              I routinely flee subway cars when I see what I assume are showtime performers. Can never be to careful. My day has no time for being kicked in the head.

            3. Optimistic Prime*

              I dunno, I think the mariachi band is worse, but “Showtime” is definitely next on the list.

              1. bohtie*

                This has nothing to do with anything, but I just want to tell this story: one time my ex was being accosted by a very aggressive panhandler who was getting up in his face, threatening him, spitting on him, all this stuff. (And my ex, while fairly meek once you get to know him, is a HUGE guy, like almost six and a half feet tall and looks like a Hells Angel crossed with a refrigerator, so you have to be in a certain place in life to think that’s a good idea.) We’re quietly panicking, trying to figure out what to do, and then a mariachi band got on the train, looked at us, and literally surrounded the yelling aggressive dude and just played directly at him and drowned him out until he got off at the next stop. And that is why I will always have a soft spot for mariachi bands.

          2. Jesca*

            I don’t think the point here is comparing who was more “rude”, or who started it, or whose fault it was. The point is that no one in society operates on such black and white moral codes. And that what you choose to do every day may impact you later. Younger me would be like this OP and bristle. Or be like other comments here and shout “its not fair! She start it!”. But older me would just shrug it off. I canno say I am perfect, just like I cannot say I live in a perfect and fair world. If a potential imployer say me be rude or “lose it” public and decided not to offer me the job despite the circumstances that *caused* me to react, then that is life. It is unfortunate, but it is life. This isn’t about fairness. Its about that grey area of the saying “do you want to be right, or do you want to be loved”.

            1. Jesca*

              Ahg I have so many issues with this site!

              *If a potential employer saw me be rude or “lose it” in public and

            2. ThursdaysGeek*

              ‘Years ago my mother used to say to me, she’d say, “In this world, Elwood, you must be” – she always called me Elwood – “In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.” Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me. ‘

              5. thebluecastle*

                I love that movie (Harvey for those of yall who don’t know). My dad always quotes it to me. Its such good advice.

              6. Lindsay J*

                The older I get, the more true I find this to be. I would chose to work with the less smart but more pleasant person in almost every situation.

          3. Ann O. Nymous*

            Yeah, if OP knew what she was asking and still didn’t respond I think that’s rude, but I certainly think it’s fine in some cases to ignore people who talk to you on the train. As a woman who takes the metro daily, I keep my headphones in and my music loud and generally ignore people trying to talk to me, unless they’re asking for a seat (which I’ll give to them, although I usually stand up and move if the train is full and I see someone who clearly needs a seat) or handing me something I’ve dropped. I’ve had way too many obnoxious, creepy, scary things said to me on public transit that I default to ignoring people/not responding to them unless it’s patently clear through body language/their age or disability that they need my seat.

            This is all to say that while I think OP was rude in this situation, I don’t think you owe everyone a response/the time of day when you’re on the train, and sometimes people may come off as rude as a way to insulate themselves from a potentially shitty metro interaction.

            1. the_scientist*

              Absolutely. I’m also a woman who takes crowded public transit daily and has been subjected to numerous creepy, scary or otherwise obnoxious things. As a result I am generally pretty wary in my interactions, which could be seen as stand-offish. But like you said, this situation is materially different.

      2. Gen*

        As someone with a serious disability that’s only visible by X-ray thank you for saying this. I’ve been removed from ‘disabled’ seats in the past because I look too healthy until I try to walk

      3. BananaPants*

        The fact that OP had a bicycle with her makes it a fairly safe bet that she’s not so infirm as to be unable to stand. And ignoring the request completely was truly tacky.

        1. Rainy, PI*

          Not a safe assumption. My disabled late husband could and did ride a bike (and was encouraged by his doctor) but could not stand or walk for long periods of time, since he was disabled and had chronic pain and muscle weakness. If our city had had public transit, he would have needed a seat.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Okay, but it would be a reasonable assumption for someone to assume he was a good prospect for asking for the seat. He could then have explained that in fact he did need the seat, which is an acceptably polite response if true.

            1. What time is it? Showtime*

              See, I’d see this person and think they were *NOT* a good candidate to ask to move, because it probably took some finesse to get the bike nestled in so that it wasn’t bothering people. Especially if the train was crowded, asking the person with the bike (or the stroller or the birthday cake or seven shopping bags piled on top of them) seems like a disaster because it’s going to take them so long to rearrange themselves in an unobtrusive matter. Ask the person who is carrying nothing to move, and for goodness’ sake, ask them politely. “Excuse me, my father can’t stand for long periods. Could he please have your seat? Thank you so much.” There’s no need to yell or to shoot mean looks or to say “Can’t you see my dad needs your seat? Get up, you lazy entitled millennial!” or “Give my dad your seat!” or anything of the like.

              1. Sadsack*

                We know nothing about everyone else on the train. It could have been that they were near the disabled seating and they were all full, so OP was the first person nearby who seemed like a good candidate to ask. It actually doesn’t matter. The fact is OP ignored that there was an older person (we don’t know how old) who needed his seat and then knowingly messed up the woman’s coat and ignored that, too. There’s no coming back from that now.

              2. OxfordComma*

                But the LW didn’t even respond to the request. Instead the LW ignored her. And we don’t actually know how close the LW was to the LW’s bike. It could have been at the front of the car. But again, regardless, the LW chose to ignore the person asking. Which was rude no matter how you slice it.

                Then the LW damaged/stained the CEO’s wife’s coat apparently without acknowledgement or apology. It’s only now when a job is on the line that the LW is apparently considering offering to pay for the dry cleaning and to apologize.

              3. good point*

                In some cities, you’re not even permitted to have a bike on the train during rush hour. If it’s the case in this city, it’s just another example of the OP’s entitled behavior.

              4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Where are you getting the “no need to yell or shoot mean looks or to say…” lines? Because we don’t know what happened, but I have a feeling none of those things occurred when this woman asked if her father could sit where OP was seated. (I’ll leave aside the bike notes, because as others have noted, a lot of public transit systems have specific rules for bikers that do not allow them to arrange their bike in a cumbersome manner.)

                This just seems like an awful lot of conjecture to justify bad/rude behavior. OP was entitled to respond however they wanted to, but there are also consequences for those responses. The consequence, here, was that OP’s conduct did not reflect well on their character (they may have excellent character, but the train interaction does not reflect that at all).

            2. Rainy, PI*

              I don’t object to the asking, I object to the assumption that if someone “has X” or “looks like Y” or “is doing Z” then they are able to stand. 100%, ask if you need to! But don’t feel entitled to their seat because of your assumptions. :)

              (I’m one of those absurdly youthful looking people who has incredibly bad joints, so I sometimes get asked for my seat on days when I can barely haul myself out of it because my hip arthritis is so painful and/or my knees don’t really function as knees, so I have a dog in this particular fight.)

          2. hayling*

            I remember someone in the town I grew up with who rode around on a recumbent bike towing his wheelchair. I was always curious what his disability was that he could ride a bike but not walk (or walk much). The human body is so interesting!

            1. Rainy, PI*

              My late husband rode a recumbent with his cane strapped across the back rack. He couldn’t stand well and couldn’t really walk for very long at a time even with the cane, but routinely biked 30-50 mile days. The exercise was extremely beneficial for his chronic pain and his pancreatic damage, and because he was cycling, his strong side could make up for his hemiparesis in way that wasn’t possible walking.

              It’s possible the person you remember had some similar condition.

        2. Merula*

          This is not necessarily true. There are disabilities that can make biking easier than walking or sitting. My husband has one, and it’s not something that’s visually apparent.

          Still, if the OP needed a seat for something other than reading, I assume she would have said that. She did offer reasons for not moving (rude request, needing to read) but didn’t mention a physical disability, which would seem fairly conclusive by itself without bringing the bike into it.

          1. Sarah*

            Yes, it would be 100% acceptable to say “I’m so sorry, I’m actually not able to stand on the train because of a sprained ankle/joint issues/a blood pressure problem/whatever.” That’s a very different scenario than what happened here. I also don’t think there’s any need to speculate about a million possible disabilities the OP could potentially have since presumably those would have been mentioned in the letter if present.

    3. Roscoe*

      Its true, it doesn’t say that. However, I’d assume he was pretty old. Assuming the CEOs wife is middle aged, her father would probably be getting up there in years as well. Now its true, it may have been rude, but its still a social construct. If a guy rudely asked me to give up my seat for his pregnant wife, I’d still do it, even if I gave him an earful for being rude.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        This is what I came here to say. Most execs at prestigious firms are 40s or 50s. Sure, the wife could be younger, but if we’re going by the law of averages here, I think it’s pretty easy to assume the father would easily qualify as elderly.

        1. my two cents*

          The OP mentioned that this is the first full-time gig after the senior year internship. Given that, OP is about 22-24, CEO and wife are mid-40’s to mid-50’s, and the CEO’s FIL would be at least 70’s. And even so, if the Wife was trying to steady the FIL (visibly holding an arm or otherwise assisting the FIL) then it’s pretty darned rude for the OP to take notice and then also ignore them.

          You never know who you’ll run into. Borderline behavior (“she asked rather rudely” lol) in public places should default to letting it go – and let the ‘rather rude’ person go on their way. But instead, OP decided that they were going to hold their seat on a Sunday night to read-up for an interview the Next Day (not important enough to NOT move, by the way, and the materials may have referenced the company) and completely ignore this person and their elderly companion.

          FWIW, 32 yr old female engineer who’s often had to mince words, over-apologize, etc…and I think OP sounds like an entitled jerk. I wouldn’t want to work with someone I witnessed cold-shouldering another person on the bus/train/plane.

          1. Brandy*

            Also, you never know what someones been thru. There could be a lot going on in her life, not an excuse, but she may have been brash, not rude. And she could have been ticked looking at everyone sitting and no one offering her father (older) a seat.

            1. CM*

              Yes. I have definitely been asked rudely for various things in public, including a seat on a train. But you know what, it’s not on me to punish somebody else for rudeness. If they say they need a seat, and I can spare it, I give them the seat. It’s different than, say, being asked for money — a seat is a public resource. But whether somebody is asking me for a seat or for money, they are probably having a harder time than I am, and it doesn’t hurt me to be polite to them.

          2. Doe-Eyed*

            Also “rather rudely” may also be “asked in a frazzled fashion because she’s towing around her dad”. My dad was generally able to get around but had fairly severe dementia post-stroke and getting him to go anywhere with realiablity was an exercise in cat herding. About an hour in pretty much all my requests were “HE NEEDS A SEAT THANKS D:”

          3. Anon today...and tomorrow*

            As someone who has been accused of yelling when I’ve spoken in a firm, even tone I took the “she asked rather rudely” very lightly. My neutral resting face often looks like I’m scowling and as I am a pretty direct, no-nonsense person when it comes to asking for something I’d like I can imagine that someone would describe our interaction that way despite my never having said a rude or unkind word.

            OP, I agree with Allison on every point here. You lost this job because of your character. Work on that!

          4. JoyOfMotion*

            I don’t think the OP sounds like an entitled jerk. In her position I’d have given up the seat as the request was for somebody else, but I think it’s a fair response to somebody approaching you and asking something of you rudely to ignore them. If the CEO’s wife couldn’t be at least polite about it, I fully understand the OP bristling a little and deciding to deal with the situation by ignoring it. You do not absolutely owe anybody, who approaches you in a way you find rude or concerning, your engagement in a public space. Just no.

            Adding in the bike track marks on the jacket, well again, I’d have stopped and offered my details for dry cleaning and apologised profusely. But I can see why the OP might not have been feeling so charitable towards her due to her prior rudeness, and shrugged it off as one of the risks of public transport.

            I am sorry the OP didnt get the job and agree that there’s nothing they can do now about it. But people are bending over backward to try and find ways to portray it as ‘maybe wife wasn’t actually being rude after all’ to make the OP seen even worse, when I think we should take a letter writer at their word and deal with the situation as it is presented by them.

            TLDR: OP’s actions weren’t ones I’d choose, probably. But I definitely don’t think she’s a jerk for them. I’m surprised at the extent to which everyone is jumping over her in these comments to be honest.

          5. Elizabeth H.*

            My dad is in his 70s and is more active than I am (he plays tennis and/or swims every day in the summer and ellipticals for like an hour per day the rest of the year, and is obsessed with his fitbit. Just bc someone is in 70’s doesn’t mean he or she needs a subway seat

      2. Myrin*

        Yes to all of your points! As a regular user of all kinds of public transit, I’m certainly annoyed when people basically plop down in my lap and yell at me that they need my seat when I haven’t even had time to take in my surroundings (yes, this has happened several times), but I still get up and let them have the seat – I’ve just gotten used to coldly saying “That could have been said less rudely” and then walking away.

        2. Temperance*

          If you sit on me, or shove me, you aren’t getting my seat. I have some minor health issues (that used to be major health issues) and I’m not about to wear myself out by standing for 45 minutes on the way home.

          1. Myrin*

            That’s a reason for you not to give up your seat all by itself and independent of whether someone asked rudely or not, though. I’m thankfully perfectly capable of standing even long train rides so I choose to give my seat even to the lap-ploppers because, pardon the pun, that’s not a train I’m willing to die on.

      3. Brandy*

        Thank you Roscoe. No matter what, if someone said “excuse me, could my father have your seat” Id assume there was a reason why, not that he wasn’t just wanting to sit for no reason. I err on the side of “I do the right thing and if you exploit that, that is on you”.

    4. Dee-Nice*

      I’m a youngish woman in good physical health, so if someone asks me for my seat I’ll give it to them and assume they need it more than I do, whether their need is apparent to me or not. In my experience of living in a large city and taking public transit for many years, I think it’s really hard to get over the social barrier of asking for a seat, even if you need it badly.

      I agree that one should be polite when asking for a seat, and it’s a shame if the woman was rude, but I also can’t tell from the LW’s language whether LW considers the mere act of asking for a seat to be rude. And it seems hard to make the father stand when he may have needed the seat, even if his daughter was rude.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Also: the OP had a bicycle. . .that seemed like a signal that they may not mind standing IMO and would be a good person to approach to ask. If the OP had at least responded, they could have said apologetically, “Oh, I’m sorry, I really need to wrap up this reading, and I can’t read standing up.” Then the woman could have expanded with the reason for her request, but by ignoring her, the OP never knew the need.

        1. Dee-Nice*

          And: needing to read something doesn’t really trump most other reasons I can think of for not giving up a seat.

        3. CityMouse*

          I am actually confused about the bicycle bit – in my city bikes are supposed to be kept in the side areas – someone sitting with a bike would be blocking multiple seats.

          1. Blue*

            Yeah, I had this thought, too. I’ve lived in two cities where I was reliant on public transportation, and in both of them, sitting *anywhere* on a train with a bike meant that you’re probably blocking at least one seat and/or the walk way. I wonder if we’re missing some context here.

            1. What time is it? Showtime*

              There are ways to have a bike on the train that aren’t obnoxious. I’ve seen it done masterfully and I’ve seen it done terribly.

              1. Observer*

                Well, the OP wasn’t being “masterful” – they managed to mess up someone’s coat….

                1. What time is it? Showtime*

                  That’s getting the bike OFF the train. You could mess up someone’s coat if you had a pen in your hand. Generally if it’s crowded, someone is gonna get bumped when people are getting off the train, bike or no.

              2. CityMouse*

                And the key point here is sitting. The announcements in my city actually tell people with bikes to stand near the doors at the sides if the cars. Seats are in aisles or side areas so you would be blocking them if you sat with it.

                1. Chocolate Teapot*

                  I was wondering if it was a carriage where there is a section of tip-up seats (like you get in the cinema) and then you can either take a bike with you or a pushchair/wheelchair.

                  If there is space, then you can sit, but as soon as the carriage fills, you should stand up. My local city buses are similar, but the pushchair/wheelchair space is smaller.

              3. Recovering Adjunct*

                Considering the LW got the CEO’s wife’s coat dirty moving the bike, it sounds like a packed train.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            It’s also possible that OP was sitting near, but not in, the seats reserved for the disabled/elderly. Most of the transit systems that require placing your bike to the side also have seats nearby for populations that particularly need seat access. So the woman may have approached OP not because of their bike, but simply because they were seated near the priority seats.

            If OP was indeed blocking multiple seats, then I would be rude about asking if my father could sit, also. Ignoring someone on a train is rude, but in some circumstances excusable. Using your bike to block seats and ignoring requests is next-level social-contract-breaking.

    5. Mike C.*

      Who cares? If it’s someone who’s elderly, you give up the seat! Not all medical issues are visible.

      What the heck?!

      1. Katie the Fed*

        yes, this. I’m picturing someone doing this to my dad who has very low stamina after a brain aneurysm and getting REALLY REALLY ANGRY.

        1. Mike C.*

          Common sense given the average gestation and maturity times for human beings in OECD nations?

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            C’mon, no need to call assumptions common sense. There are enough assumptions already flying around in this thread. There’s no need for moe.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              How old do you think this guy was?? And what’s your cut-off for “elderly”?

              It seems reasonable to assume that he was, at a minimum, in his 60s based on usual gestational periods in advanced countries and on data related to the average age of CEOs of companies of all sizes. There’s a less than 10% chance he was in his 50s, and he almost certainly was not younger than that. Mike C.’s not being unreasonable or overly speculative by drawing that conclusion.

              1. Optimistic Prime*

                I mean, if we’re going to get pedantic about it, we actually don’t know anything about the CEO’s wife’s age. We may reasonably assume that the CEO is middle-aged (although maybe not) but his wife could be literally any age.

                It’s better, instead, not to assume anything and certainly not to yell at the letter writer because of some assumption we’ve dreamed up.

                1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  I find the pushback on making “assumptions” about the wife’s age or her father’s age to be a real red herring (and also reliant on some very sandwiches logic). Even if the wife were 20, her father is, at a minimum, likely to be 45-50.

                  Regardless of his age, OP should not have ignored the wife when she asked if her father could sit. I’m not sure what policing how people imagine the father’s age to be makes a difference with respect to what went wrong.

        2. JustaCPA*

          I think the assumption is that someone old enough to be married to the CEO of a company is MOST LIKELY going to have an elderly parent.

          1. OxfordComma*

            This. Generally to be a CEO, unless it’s some kind of a startup, you’re looking at someone in his or her 40s-50s. And then add 20-30 years and you have someone in their 60s-70s, if not older.

        1. kristinyc*

          Yo yo, yo yo, what time is it? SHOWTIME! Showtime, Showtime..

          (If we’re merging Hamilton / Subway references…)

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would counter that getting such a request is pretty rare and most people don’t ask unless they really need the seat. I spent a lot of time in walking casts and I never, ever asked for a seat on the train because I was a) shy and b) afraid to get rejected. My grandfather would sooner chew off his own arm than ask for a seat on public transportation, so I would do the asking (I wouldn’t be rude about it).

      I would also counter that even if one needs to keep the seat, even if it’s just because they think the request was rudely made, there are ways to say so. As in, “I’m sorry, I need the seat.” Ignoring someone who requests a seat? Nope, rude. I won’t play a game of “Who Was More Rude”– they both were, but OP’s ignoring was pretty darn rude.

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        Also, having lived in many places where trains and subways were the primary means of getting around, there’s often an ettiquette around yielding seats, and ignoring an elderly person could well be perceived as rude just on the face of it.

        1. Blurgle*

          I have seen young, healthy people thrown off the bus for refusing to give up their seat even just to move further back. The lady with the walker has to sit at the front.

      2. Cb*

        I had to ask for a seat quite early on in my pregnancy and it was really scary and difficult (I’m young, I don’t look like I “need” the seat) and I had to rationalise it in my head by saying ‘it’s better to ask one person for a seat than inconvenience the whole bus by passing out’. The person who got up for me was really lovely, hopped up straight away, and the person in the next seat made sure I was okay throughout the journey.

        People don’t typically ask unless they really need it.

          1. AnonyMouse*

            Fascinating, EmilyG.

            I agree it’s so hard to ask. I’m young, healthy looking, but have some low blood pressure issues that can make me dizzy. I once thought I was going to pass out on the train and tried to catch someone’s eye, but everyone had headphones in and was staring at their phones, and I felt awkward that I’d have to ask pretty loudly to be heard. I ended up just clinging to a pole for dear life and stepping off at the next station, because I was too nervous to ask!

            So yeah, if anyone asks me for a seat, I’m giving it up without prejudice. (or, if I need it, I’ll say so.)

          2. Bibliovore*

            I was coming here to cite that same study. I use a cuff crutch. One of the decision points to leaving NYC for a job in the midwest was the subway commute. It is almost impossible for me to ask for a seat on the subway.
            I would love to hear the “rude” language. Could you get up so my father can have your seat? Would you mind getting up so that my father could have your seat? Hey you, get up, my father needs that seat!

            1. Temperance*

              I imagine that CEO’s wife did the thing where you “ask” but it’s phrased as more of a demand, like “could you move so my father can sit down” or “my father needs that seat”.

            2. EmilyG*

              I have had several friends in NYC with mobility issues (one short-term and one long-term) and it seemed like their subway commutes were *exponentially* more stressful than mine was. One friend said that a guy once saw her cane and stood right up for her, then another person darted in front of her, sat in the seat, put his headphones in with his head down, and ignored her, the original guy, and everyone else yelling at him. Ugh! Just more opportunities to have weird interactions with strangers.

              I don’t know how the study would account for this, but I found it surprisingly easy to ask on their behalf when we were riding together. No sweaty palms at all, I could just stride up to the three seats marked priority and say in commanding voice “Could we have one of these priority seats for my friend? Thank yooouu!” Alas, I couldn’t commute with my friends.

              1. Bagpuss*

                I think it’s almost always easier to ask for other people – maybe because it doesn’t feel ‘selfish’ in the way that advocating for yourself can.

        2. Elizabeth*

          I have a dress that makes people think I’m pregnant ( I never am!), and every time someone offers me their seat I always politely decline but never correct them because I don’t want them to get into the habit of thinking they *shouldn’t* offer their seats to actual pregnant people!

      4. WPH*

        I’ve been riding the subway in various cities most of my 30+ years of life and I can’t on one hand the number of times I’ve been asked for a seat. I have offered seats way more times (and been turned down occassionally) and been offered seats way more times. Most people on public transit aren’t looking to talk to fellow commuters so if one is there is usually a reason, sure it’s often that they are nuts/a jerk but it can also be for genuine need. If someone asked me for a seat, even rudely, I would give it. I might give it with some Ms. Manners-style exquisite politeness but I would still give it.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I also commute in NYC, and if the person asking for my seat is just crazy or entitled, I still would give them my seat, because then there’s just less drama all around. Which is what everyone wants in a commute.

          1. Bibliovore*

            The only time that I wouldn’t give up my seat was when a man asked me to give him my seat by the door because it was against his religion to sit elsewhere. There were plenty of other seats open on the train.

            1. Zombeyonce*

              I’m going to start using that. It’s against my religion to not get the window seat on an airplane, to wait in line at Starbucks, and to get parking tickets when I block a fire hydrant.

    8. HisGirlFriday*

      Love the username!

      Just to play Devil’s Advocate….the OP’s memory of how she was asked may be colored by the consequences of ignoring the asker.

      1. Mananana*

        That was my thought, HGF: she may be “remembering” the request as rude as a justification for her behavior.

    9. Purplesaurus*

      Yeah, I’m not sure I would ignore her, but I’d be way less willing to do anything for someone who started out rude. The coat stain, however, I would have apologized for.

    10. ack ack*

      Professionalism kind of requires that you be the bigger person, though. Companies want their employees to be polite, and “She was rude first!” is not an excuse that will get you very far in most workplaces.

    11. Amy Cakes*

      I noticed this, too. Obviously the account is an interpretation seen through LW’s eyes, but it’s still odd to me that everyone is jumping on the LW when the wife comes across as a demanding snot. Assumptions go both ways.

        1. JamieS*

          Given the letter directly says the wife was being rude while demanding a seat, how is saying she came across as a demanding snot reading into something that isn’t there? It’s literally in the letter.

          1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            Because there’s a wide gulf of possibility between “demanding snot” and a brusque tone that strikes an entitled 22-year-old as “rude.” Particularly when it seems like said 22 year old was already blocking the aisle with a bike.

            1. JamieS*

              No there’s not. Being rude while demanding something is being a demanding snot. Maybe the wife wasn’t actually rude (I wasn’t there to know one way or another) but taking the OP at their word isn’t reading into something that isn’t there when it is there. You can say you don’t buy what the OP said but you can’t say another poster is reading into something that isn’t in the letter when it is in the letter.

              Where is it say OP is 22?

              1. Jesmlet*

                Rude or not, the request she made is reasonable so I think calling her a demanding snot is a leap. A young person who is healthy enough to ride a bike should get up so an elderly person can sit. In fact, they really shouldn’t even have to be asked. And how rude could it have been? Unless she called you a name, I wouldn’t fault her for a rude tone of voice.

                It doesn’t say their age but it’s their first post-college job so 22 is an understandable assumption.

                1. JamieS*

                  You don’t know of it was reasonable or not taking into consideration her perceived tone and nowhere does it say the father was elderly. That’s an assumption nearly everyone is taking as the gospel truth.

                  Expecting a seat for an 80 year old while being rude is reasonable, doing the same when the person is 50 and not disabled isn’t reasonable.

                  In the age of 20 year college attendance I think no assumption is reasonable.

                2. Observer*

                  JamieS, we don’t know how old the father was, but it’s almost impossible for the father to be much less than 60 or so.

                3. Jesmlet*

                  I should be able to ask an able-bodied person (clearly able-bodied since they can ride a bike) to give their seat to my father without having to produce his medical records. The vast majority of people getting their “first proper job after finishing university” are going to be in their 20s. Let’s not use the exception to debate every situation.

              2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

                You’re really riding this bomb into the ground, eh, Major Kong? As noted by our gracious host, taking OP at their word doesn’t mean one is obligated to ignore context. I think you’re off base and contrarian.

                And the OP just graduated from university, which generally occurs around age 21-23 in both the US and Britain.

                1. JamieS*

                  Not ignoring context means not reprimanding people who are making reasonable assumptions that aren’t in the letter. It doesn’t mean someone who’s taking the letter purely at face value should be reprimanded.

                  I’m sure your first sentence was clever to someone else but it’s just nonsensical to me.

                3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  nonegiven, it’s true that there are reentry students, but statistically, the overwhelming majority of undergraduate students in OECD countries are going to fall within the band Snark has provided.

            2. Kate 2*

              How do we know the aisle was being blocked with a bike? Many areas have special bike racks on buses and trains/subway cars for bikes.

            3. Optimistic Prime*

              While I agree that the OP didn’t behave her best, now some people are being unnecessarily rude to the OP. They never said their age; there’s not really enough concrete evidence to assume that they are entitled, and there’s also not enough evidence to conclude that they were blocking the aisle with their bike.

              Can we be nice to the people who come here and ask for advice?

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It doesn’t say she was being a demanding snot. It says she asked “rudely” for his seat, which I would bet money is “she was annoyed that I was taking up the aisle with my bike while not paying attention to people around because I was reading” … which to me seems like the most likely scenario because sitting and reading while your bike takes up the aisle is indeed rude and would warrant someone sounding brusque.

            But even if that wasn’t the case, what exactly would “rude” be here? Her tone? Her wording? What exactly would that sound like? Unless she said something like “hey you prick, get on your feet,” it’s pretty reasonable to assume she just sounded annoyed … which is not a reason to ignore someone in need.

            So “demanding snot” seems a far cry from what was actually described by the OP.

            1. Jesca*

              “Rude” could also imply, and as I had read it, that she *had the nerve* to ask in the first place.
              As I said above though, the point isn’t about who was rude first. It is about learning and understanding that life doesn’t always seem fair and black and white. What wo now may impact us later on no matter the circumstances surrounding the whys.

              Just like it may seem black and white to some (offer a seat to an older person), doesn’t mean it is to others (bad mouth a candidate you were rude to first). Its just life. Life isn’t always fair. Just gotta move on from it and take it as a lesson that you never know who is watching or how you can be perceived.

            2. sam*

              yeah – I ride my bike in the city – and sometimes end up having to take it on the subway, and there are basic…etiquette guidelines when you have to do this. This biggest being…

              …recognize that you are taking up more space than a normal person on the train, and do everything you can to minimize it.

              I will let several trains go by if I see that they’re too crowded. I know which parts of the subway car are the least obstructive to keep my bike (the ends), because you’re not blocking peoples’ access to the doors). And I will apologize profusely to any and all people (and probably overexplain as to why I’m not RIDING the bike – for me it’s usually unexpected sudden bad weather, a flat tire/broken spoke, or I’ve just finished a massive ride and can’t feel my legs anymore – I use a bike share for commuting now!) And while sometimes sitting in the corner with your bike is technically the least obtrusive you can be, by all means, if someone needs a seat, give up the damn seat.

              1. WPH*

                This. As someone who can be annoyed by bikes on public transit I have to say I have almost never seen a biker take up a seat unless the train was virtually empty. OP violated/was oblivous to many parts of the social contract/etiquette/common decency.

              3. PizzaDog*

                Where I’m from, you’re only allowed to be in the end cars and never during peak hours.

            3. JamieS*

              The letter said she was being rude while requesting a seat. Assuming that’s true, many people would call that behavior being a demanding snot. Your interpretation into the reason behind the rudeness (which I think is likely correct but that’s neither here nor there) is what’s reading more into the letter than what’s there.

              I’m not saying the OP gave an accurate assessment. I’m saying taking a letter at face value and not second guessing the OP isn’t reading more into the letter than what’s there.

              1. fposte*

                But this is yet another “It doesn’t actually matter” thing. You don’t deny the request for a seat for somebody who needs it because they asked the wrong way.

            4. KR*

              Agreed and I find with some people if you’re not really nice or smiling (particularly when you’re a woman) people will find you rude even when you’re not being rude, so when OP said she asked “rudely” I kind of rolled my eyes.
              Also, navigating the public transit system makes me tense without even trying so I can understand if she wasn’t super obviously not rude, especially trying to navigate with her dad who may or may not be elderly/disabled.

              1. WPH*

                This! Maybe she was frazzled, maybe she was tired, maybe she was frustrated, maybe she just wasn’t smiling. And heck, maybe she was rude. But to complete ignore her request and the NEED of an elderly human being is just wrong… We do not use other people’s bad behavior to justify our own.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  My father started having serious heart issues before age 60. If he whispered to me that he needed to sit, you’d hear the panic in my voice. I can see someone interpreting my panic as rudeness/brusqueness. Her father may have been having a bad morning or may have just indicated he was having difficulty or she might have decided on her own she was worried for him.

                  When people ask on behalf of others, I always figure there is an immediate reason that they feel they need to ask.

            5. MCL*

              100% yes. If I had to ask someone for a seat who is taking up lots of room with their stuff and not paying attention to their surroundings, I would be pretty pretty brusque as well. I have a hard time not sounding irritated in situations like this. Asking in a short tone whether someone could offer a seat to (probably) an elderly person is a far cry from being a demanding snot. The bigger crime is to ignore the request to accommodate a person who might need a seat.

            6. kj*

              In my city, bikes are hung in a side area, fully out of the way. So the bike might not have been in the aisle at all. Not to say the OP wasn’t rude to not give up the seat, but trains differ and many have ways for bikes to be out of the way and not blocking the aisle.

            7. Kate 2*

              How do we know the bike was taking up the aisle? A lot of public transit vehicles have special bike racks.

              1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

                Because when OP got off the train, they got chain grease or something on the wife’s coat.

              2. Oryx*

                “Unfortunately, when I was getting off the train, I accidentally moved my bike in a way that it caught and left dirty stains on her coat.”

                That makes it sound like the bike was on the train versus “When I was removing the bike from the rack”

                1. kj*

                  I don’t know. I’d say “when I was removing my bike from the train” if it had been on the rack. In fact, I’m almost certain I’ve said that about taking my bike down from the rack and out the train door. I don’t think this is knowable and I think the assumption that the OP was taking up the aisle with their bike is a little uncharitable. It would be very hard to sit and have your bike not fall over, so something was done to stabilize the bike on the. train so the OP could read. The OP could have used a kickstand I suppose, but that would be unusual- most commuting bikes don’t have them and I’d assume the OP has a commuting bike. Again, we are all making some assumptions, but I don’t think assuming the bike was in the aisle is a better assumption than assuming the bike was on a rack. And the assumption the bike was on a rack is more charitable.

            8. Recovering Adjunct*

              I wonder if the OP could also be from a firm “guess” culture where a direct request is rude no matter how it is stated. This would be in fitting with the LW reading/blocking with the bike. To the LW, their physical presence was a firm nonverbal “no” and anyone approaching the LW would be rude, no matter what.

              Here’s more info about ask versus guess culture: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/05/askers-vs-guessers/340891/ This really helped me because I came from an almost abusive “guess” culture and this reframed a lot of behavior I saw as rude or pushy.

            10. Jess*

              The OP was rude and your advice above was right but please don’t pick on the bike; there are a lot of well-designed public transport systems that accommodate them without them taking up much aisle space.

      2. Mike C.*

        The “demand” is for common consideration of the needs folks who may not be in the best of health.

        1. Amy Cakes*

          From the literal words of the letter writer. Site rules expect us to take the LW at their word.

      4. Nea*

        This isn’t just about the seat, though, it’s about the coat. We know that OP felt that wife’s approach was rude and that the ruining of the coat was accidental, but from wife’s point of view, she requested a seat for her father, and not only didn’t get the seat, but lost a coat too.

        So OP is claiming “she started it” on the rude, but the actual destruction of property only went one way. And from the careful phrasing from OP, I wonder if wife was left thinking that she was jostled and stained deliberately.

        1. Jesmlet*

          The letter also doesn’t mention an apology of any sort about the coat when it happened. For someone who is defending themselves to not include this information leads me to believe the apology just didn’t happen. If OP is only offering to pay for dry cleaning now that they know it’s the CEO’s wife, that’s not really a good look.

          1. TMac*

            Yeah, I’m picturing wife coming home and CEO asking “Hey Honey, how’s your dad? And what happened to your coat?” Just doesn’t look good. I get it, you’re getting off the train and you only have seconds before the doors close so no real time swap numbers and get her cleaner’s information, but this looks really bad in addition to ignoring her.

    12. Amtelope*

      It’s polite to assume that people who ask for seats on public transportation need them.

      3. hayling*

        As a young person with an invisible disability, I wish more people thought like you! I’ve had people argue with me or express disbelief when I ask for a seat—in the disabled priority section!

    13. Another person*

      I don’t know of many young CEO’s, so the CEO’s father in law was likely elderly. If not elderly, he’d certainly be much older than the OP who is barely out of university.

      Ignoring the request seems to be the issue here. If someone believes they need the seat more than an older person for whatever reason, there’s nothing wrong with saying “I’m sorry I can’t help, but I do need this seat.”

      1. K.*

        Right. Giving up the seat is the OP’s prerogative (I’d give it up – I tend to offer) but ignoring someone who asks you a direct question is rude.

      2. Jamey*

        I also don’t necessarily think you have to think you need the seat MORE than the older person. I’m young but I have back problems when I’m standing for too long. I don’t doubt that an elderly person may have more problems than I do but I still think it would be reasonable to say something like, “I’m sorry, I need to sit because of my back, but can you ask someone else?”

        Presumably in a full train, there should be someone else who could more easily give up a seat. That way, the older person and I can both sit.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          And I think it would have been totally reasonable to go, “I’m trying to prepare for an important interview and I can’t read standing up. Could you ask someone else? I’ll be happy to if you can’t find someone else to move.” With an apologetic smile, that would have been fine.

      3. Jesmlet*

        Also, OP rides a bicycle which does seem to indicate they are healthy enough to stand. I’m sorry but your desire to read should not trump an elderly person’s desire to not be in pain while standing. Ignoring the request just adds to the rudeness and I’m assuming there was no profuse apology for you accidentally ruining her coat.

        OP, even if she just presented the facts to her husband without coloring it with her opinion, you come off really badly here. Apologize, offer to pay for dry cleaning, expect nothing, and move on.

      4. Jessica*

        I wonder if the OP had earphones in (like 90% of subway riders) and “ignored” the woman by simply pretending not to hear her. That’s pretty common.

    14. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      Given how self-absorbed OP sounds, it’s entirely possible they mistook brusqueness for rudeness. If my elderly father were in pain and a young, fit person were obliviously sitting in a seat, I might be a little brisk in asking them to give up their seat.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          Yeah, good point. Bike in the aisle, determinedly ignoring everything around them, Dad’s hip or whatever is acting up..yeah, I might be a brisk Admittedly, I’m reading a ton into the situation, but it’s entirely possible that there was a tension in the air even before Mrs. CEO said something.

        2. blackcat*

          Or you would have to maneuver past their bike to be able to get at any subsequent seat (or, indeed, some of the “disabled” seating).

        3. CityMouse*

          Sitting with bike on the DC metro would be a faux pad. You are supposed to keep your bike in the standing area.

          1. kj*

            In my city, there are places to hang bikes to keep them out of the aisles. I’d assumed the OP had their bike hung up and out of the way. I hope so at least. I’m a biker and get annoyed when bikers do rude things, as it reflects poorly on all cyclists. Most of us are nice and don’t want to be jerks, I promise! I hang my bike on the train or stand with it and move out of the way if I can’t hang it.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          This just really was a bad situation all the way around. And I think OP failed to accurately estimate the “badness” here. If it had just been one thing, probably nothing would have been said, but this was several things.

      2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        I’ve been that person. My mom has asthma. There’s been a couple times she’s huffing and puffing pretty badly (usually due to our own fault on cutting it too close). When I’m worried, I don’t always have the most cordial tone. I always say “excuse me” “please”, and “thank you” so it’s not like I’m behaving like a monster.

        1. a Gen X manager*

          Agree, Wannabe!
          This situation makes me cringe because my mother has a rare terminal illness that affects her nervous system and she can only stand for up to 5 minutes at a time, but looking at her you’d never know that she has an affliction of any kind and she looks young (for her age) and healthy. When we travel we often advocate for her (and as an extreme introvert this is really, really difficult for me to do, but she literally cannot stand for very long and she will literally drop onto the floor if she isn’t able to sit!) I make myself do it on her behalf.

          OP – This is an opportunity to step back and really consider your place in the world and in society. Your behavior (as you describe it) is my worst nightmare when I am in a situation where I need to advocate for my mother in crowded situations. In the best case scenario, you’d take this life lesson and have it serve as a springboard to move from the entitled, selfish teenage immaturity to true adulthood and eventually emotional maturity. I sincerely wish you luck on this journey toward maturity.

      3. Jadelyn*

        I don’t disagree with the first sentence, but perhaps don’t assume that just because you see someone who’s young and doesn’t visibly “look” unfit, that they can be described as “young and fit” and that they can obviously give up their seat and stand. I’m 31, and would look “fit” to people who don’t know me. However, I have scoliosis and chronic pain issues that mean that standing up for the length of a train ride any longer than about 5 minutes could be very painful for me and cause issues that last the rest of the day. Young people can be disabled, too, even if you don’t always see it on first glance – and because of attitudes like this, I’d feel obligated to give up my seat regardless of the pain I would experience as a result, because I would worry that there would be people making that exact same judgment of me that you’re making about a hypothetical “young, fit person obliviously sitting in a seat” right now.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          I think it’s basically reasonable to assume that someone with a bike is physically fit enough to ride that bike. I don’t mean to contribute to disability erasure, but in context I think the assumption is at least defensible.

          That said, if OP were disinclined to give up their seat for the reasons you would be, even if Mrs. CEO were a little brisk, it’d be entirely reasonable and polite to say, “I’m sorry, my back is killing me right now and I can’t stand,” or “I’m sorry, but I have chronic pain and can’t stand right now.” Which would be reasonable for you, too.

        2. a Gen X manager*

          I agree, Jadelyn. I am truly surprised at the number of Comments here that outright say that you “can tell” that someone does / doesn’t need the seat and/or that they would evaluate the person asking to determine the need for themselves. This is particularly surprising to me because this group of Commenters is tend to be very open-minded and understanding (as compared to the every day population in my experience).

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              Any thoughts on limiting the number of comments from a single poster on a thread? Some recent threads have been overtaken by a single individual posting the same thing over and over again.

                1. Trout 'Waver*

                  Well, this isn’t the first time someone has mistaken a few very active posters for a consensus.

              2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I think Alison often does this with folks who are a little OOC on a particular thread. She warns them, and if they fail to abide by her warning, then she puts their comments on moderation for the rest of the thread. But unfortunately, that probably requires more of Alison’s attention than is fair/reasonable.

            2. a Gen X manager*

              WOW, I totally didn’t realize that. I try to keep track – my mistake. This actually makes me feel better because I LOVE this AAM community and how safe it is. I was probably blinded by my fury about the assumption(s) being made! Thanks for the correction, Alison.

            3. Blurgle*

              Unfortunately many more people than that are convinced that all disabilities are fake unless they can see it. They’re so worried that one “scrounger” will cheat them out of a nebulous something that they’ll gleefully let a hundred people suffer.

              1. Jadelyn*

                See also: the number of hoops one has to jump through in order to get access to disability benefits from the government, lest one unscrupulous freeloader manage to benefit where they aren’t entitled to.

            4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Yes, this! I had the same impression and then realized it was repeat comments. I think the comments about being able to tell if someone has a disability have now been outnumbered by very thoughtful and thorough responses about “invisible disabilities,” early stages of pregnancy, motion sickness, complications related to standing, etc.

              At bottom, I think a fair number (the majority?) of commenters are saying that the primary “rude” act was ignoring the request entirely. There is also a large group saying that, if you are able-bodied, you should give up your seat. And then the third rude act is griming up the lady’s coat and failing to apologize or otherwise try to make amends.

              But based on the 1000+ comments, I suspect that most folks also believe that, while responding to someone’s request, it’s absolutely ok to reject the request for a legitimate reason (e.g., disability, medical/health issue, etc… but probably not “I’m reading”).

        3. hayling*

          You deserve that seat too! I have a similar problem and I’ve learned to advocate for myself. It’s hard, but I need to protect my body.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Thank you! For me, my social anxiety means that I am so worried about what people might theoretically think of me and what judgments might be aimed at me, that I will generally let my needs go by the wayside to avoid that – which is why I got annoyed at the “young, fit person obliviously sitting” thing, because that’s EXACTLY what I’m always afraid people are thinking of me.

        4. CM*

          Jadelyn, don’t give up your seat! You can say, “I’m sorry, I need to sit,” or “I need to sit because of a health issue,” and then if you want to be really nice to the person who asked, you can say to the people around you, “Could someone else please give their seat to this gentleman?”

      4. Kate 2*

        To be fair, I don’t look up at every single stop on the bus or the train and watch who gets on and whether or not they have gotten a seat and what their relative age is. So I could be “a young, fit person obliviously sitting in a seat”. I don’t think it is reasonable to expect people to do so. Just ask, and I will happily give up my seat.

        1. Yomi*

          Same here. I’m on my train for an hour and because of my illness I’m not altogether “there” in the morning. So it is incredibly easy for me to zone out with a book or podcast. I miss my stop once every few months and have to backtrack. I would never be upset if someone asked for my seat, but I know there’s no way to signal that too other riders.

          1. Mookie*

            An 11 year-old from Melbourne created a campaign for people using public transportation to wear, as appropriate, a “Need a Seat? Ask Me” badge. Sometimes the solution is just too simple and obvious. I love this idea because I’m a nervous wreck when seated on trains and buses, scanning each and every face, at every stop, for signs someone would like my seat. It’s exhausting and I’d much rather be reading or cat-napping than intently scrutinizing everyone for passive signs of seat-needing.

        2. michelenyc*

          I don’t either. I know there are times I have been so engrossed in what I was reading I don’t even realize how many people have gotten on the train or if someone might need my seat. I generally don’t ignore people when they speak to me on the train unless they are on a tirade or if it’s Showtime.

      5. Optimistic Prime*

        I agree that the OP might have (and probably did) mistook brusqueness for rudeness.

        However, as for your last part…sounds like the OP was reading. There have been many times I have been reading a book on the subway and gotten so absorbed that I’ve forgotten the world around me (occasionally missing my stop). I would however be happy to give up my seat to someone else who requested it, should they ask. I usually try to look up at every stop to see if someone might need my seat, but people can also be proactive and ask politely if they need to sit down.

        Also, it’s not great to assume that people who look young and fit actually are and be “brisk” before even asking them.

    15. Age is not an excuse*

      Yes, and sometimes the elderly use their age as an excuse to do things they know are wrong. One time I was standing in a very long line at the pharmacy which was moving at a glacial pace. This elderly woman walks up to the cashier, cutting in front of dozens of people. When I pointed out that there was a line, she said, “But I just have this one thing.” I was like, “We all just have one thing.” She was counting on the fact that no one would call out her bad behavior simply because she was elderly. Wrong.

        2. Age is not an excuse*

          It is…we don’t know that the father needed the seat. The CEOs wife was behaving badly, using the father as an excuse for her rude behavior. Next–>

          1. EleonoraUK*

            It doesn’t matter, though.

            If someone asks for a seat for an elderly person on public transport, you give it to them. End of. Regardless of whether, in your opinion, the old person ‘only’ suffers from being old – you don’t judge whether their request worthy, or require a doctor’s note, you give up your seat.

            The situation you describe isn’t quite comparable. If the person in your scenario had asked to cut the line because she was old, surely you’d let her? I don’t need that person to explain their varicose veins and shaky legs to me for me to do the right thing – if someone’s asking, that usually means they really need it, as it’s an awkward thing to do most people would rather avoid.

          2. fposte*

            We don’t have to know if the father needed the seat. The obligation to respond and to treat the request as sincere exists independent of visible need. If it turns out she regularly gets a seat for her dad for a half an hour despite his robust good health, so what?

            Look, I get that you can have a different response, but the fact is that the precept Alison, the CEO, and most of us commenting are espousing is a really common one. You don’t have to agree with it for it to affect your life, so I think you have to accept the consequences if you want to adhere to it.

          3. Jesmlet*

            It’s not the same situation. OP rides a bike and has not mentioned any ailments that would make standing a huge burden. OP is healthy enough to give up the seat. There may be a chance the father is as well but just be a decent human being and give up the seat. It’s not an elderly person conning someone else, it’s a person doing this for their elderly father.

            1. kj*

              Yeah, agreed. It isn’t a big struggle to give up a seat for 90% of the population. If it is hard for you for some reason, say that. Don’t ignore the request.

          4. Mike C.*

            It’s not your place to question this, either as a poster or as someone being asked to give up the seat.

          5. Blurgle*

            Why are you so afraid that someone will con you that you’re willing to let a hundred people suffer? Why are you so eager to prove other people’s infirmities fake?

          6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            This is a bit circular. You’re saying the woman was rude for asking because she was trying to con OP because the woman is rude. That’s just not supported by the information we have.

            But even if she were a fantastic seat-stealing con artist, it would not absolve OP of their bad behavior (and the subsequent consequences).

        1. Age is not an excuse*

          Thank you for illustrating what being unnecessarily rude looks like…perhaps you know the OP or the CEOs wife?

          1. EleonoraUK*

            Oh come on, it’s a quote, used to illustrate that it’s easy to underestimate how rough getting proper old is, and how easy it is to underestimate that when you’re in a younger body, like you seemed to do. Take it in the spirit it was intended.

            1. Kate 2*

              People might be trying to use it that way, but that isn’t the way it comes off. It sounds really nasty, like phil is telling the other commenter he hopes they die young.

              1. Kms1025*

                Sorry…it really doesn’t come off that way…anymore than saying “live hard and fast and leave a beautiful corpse” is espousing suicide…just a saying

              3. Mookie*

                It’s more of a warning to ageists that behaving like this creates a future that will not accommodate their older selves.

      3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        What was the elderly person doing wrong in this situation? On a rocking, clattering train, an older person might have trouble standing, and could potentially be in pain or discomfort. Asking a 22 year old to get up seems totally reasonable. I mean, my 67 year old dad is strong as an ox, but if he’s been on his feet all day, an old Vietnam wound flares up and he needs to sit down.

      4. fposte*

        Or she’s always been like this and it has nothing to do with age.

        There are situations where you can say no to a request, as in your case, and in the OP’s case you can say “I’m sorry, but I actually have back problems myself and usually take a disabled seat” if that’s true. But it goes against most civilized code to just ignore a request for an older person to sit down.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          As repeatedly noted by Alison and others, that doesn’t mean we can’t pay attention to context.

          1. Yorick*

            IMO, people are making assumptions that are not supported by the details in the letter when they say she was not being rude. I agree it doesn’t matter whether she was rude. But I don’t think it’s fair to say “we have to take LWs at their word and not pile on, oh except when the LW is unpopular.”

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              It’s a fair point. I think in this case it’s striking me differently because taken in its entirety, the OP’s letter is painting a picture of someone who I don’t find entirely credible on the subject of rudeness (certainly not in assessing his own, and thus perhaps not in assessing others’), combined with the way this kind of situation would most logically play out (if your bike is already blocking people and you’re reading instead of paying attention to how you might be impacting others, of course they might sound annoyed when asking if you can move).

              But I do realize that essentially comes down to me saying “this one is different because I think it’s different,” and that’s not ideal. I still stand by my take on it, but it’s exposing a weakness of the site rule on this.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Not a city person. But it’s pretty much a standard everywhere that when one is out in public one must show basic consideration for others. In my rural town the other day, I stepped off the sidewalk so an older person could pass me and still remain on the sidewalk. I think this is just normal stuff. We have to share the space no matter where we are or what we are doing.

                IRL, I have used the technique Alison is talking about here. I watch the way people tell their story and look for the overall attitude/demeanor. I get it. You feel a huge let down and you don’t think the reason was that big.
                I think anyone would be shocked/upset. But a key point is that the boss needs to hire people who are constantly aware of how they are coming across. The boss has to know that if he turns his back you are still a high quality employee. Most of us would probably feel like we were having a bad morning if these things happened to any one of us. But the wife caught you twice with in a short time having a low awareness of others. The higher up you go in business the more important it is to quickly read a room or quickly and accurately assess the needs of other people around you. His wife caught you not doing very well with that. The boss does not expect people to come with off/on switches. He expects them to be ON all the time.

              2. Optimistic Prime*

                I think people can engage in basic kindness when making assumptions here, particularly ones that come out against the OP’s favor. Assuming that the OP may have been incorrect when assessing the woman’s level of rudeness makes total sense given the circumstances, and responding to that also makes sense. Assuming that the OP is entitled or was blocking the aisle or other details don’t really make as much sense (and quite frankly don’t help us help them, either.)

                At least in my opinion, I think your assumption helped provide you with some context in a way that allowed you to help the OP potentially see the other side of the equation, whereas some of the other assumptions people are making – or the ways in which they’re using them – feel…not as constructive. Like, it really does not matter whether or not the father was or appeared to be elderly; that’s immaterial to the conversation.

            2. Mike C.*

              People are making that assumption more for the fact that it’s irrelevant than anything else. It’s a low risk stand to take – rude or not, you give up the seat.

            3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              You’re right. I think the trouble, here, is that based on the letter as a whole, I don’t believe OP is a reliable narrator. But even if OP were, and even if this woman had been rude in asking for a seat, I’m not sure it changes the outcome for me.

              Even rude/brusque people, when making otherwise normal/reasonable requests (and I think it’s normal/reasonable to ask someone if they can move so your older father can sit), should be treated with a baseline level of respect. And you can decide not to do so, but if it later bites you in the butt, it’s not a wholly unjust or unreasonable outcome.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                I love the expression, “good message, bad delivery”. It helps me to separate out what is actually being said from the WAY that it was said. It’s been to my advantage too many times to be able to overlook the delivery method and listen to what is needed or what is going on. We don’t get to pick how other people deliver their words.

              2. Trout 'Waver*

                The OP isn’t any more or less reliable than the average writer, imho. Everyone on the internet comes with their own set of experiences and everyone is the hero of their own story. Those two things combine to make people relate their story in as positive a light as they can.

    17. AnotherAlison*

      Not sure I agree with you here.

      First, not giving someone something they need because they asked rudely seems childish to me. A woman is escorting her older father on a crowded train. I would probably come off as rude, too, even if I was asking nicely because I would have to yell to be heard.

      Second, I think you should always assume if someone asks, they have a good reason. Based on the details, I’m betting that the CEO’s wife’s father is elderly and probably looks it. Heck, my mother is recovering from a broken pelvis, and while she’s “only” 64, for some reason now that she’s back on her feet, her feet are going numb when she stands in one place for more than a minute or two. She probably wouldn’t look disabled enough for you, but I feel like that’s a minute-long explanation that I probably don’t want to shout out to you on a crowded train, particularly when you’re ignoring me.

      1. blackcat*

        Yeah, my mom is 64 (I am 30) with bad joints and osteoporosis. When she visits me (Boston area), I have totally asked random abled-body looking folks to give my mom a seat on the bus. My mom doesn’t get transit etiquette, and she really needs the seat. So I ask for her. And you know what? The three times it’s happened, someone (not always the person I am asking) has jumped up before I even finished the request.

    18. Beth*

      This crossed my mind.. but I’m wondering more about the context of the request. LW mentions he/she was traveling with a bike. I rarely see people on my local train system sitting when they travel with a bike because there is almost no way to sit and hold a bike without blocking another seat or taking up a great deal of space. Not only that, but if you are sitting and the bike needs to be moved, it’s much harder to do that than if you were standing. And chances are, if you are traveling with a bike, you are physically able to stand up. On a daily basis, I see people just riding the train in an inconsiderate manner (putting feet up on the seat next to them, blocking doorways, putting your bag on the seat next to you during rush hour, etc.) so it’s possible that she was already annoyed with LW for potentially being inconsiderate and this reflected in her voice.

      1. ToodieCat*

        And if you’re sitting and holding your bike, how much reading are you really doing?? Yeesh.

      2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        This really depends on the train design. My metro’s trains have these alcoves where you hook the front of the bike on top and don’t need to hang onto them at all.

        1. kj*

          Yeah, we have the same thing in my city. It is perfectly possible to have one’s bike hung and out of the way so you can sit down without your bike being in the way. I usually prefer to stand next to my bike, but I have sat when I was tired or feeling ill (I commuted by bike when I was sick many times- yeah internship/grad school exhaustion-induced sickness).

      3. Anne*

        You aren’t allowed to bring a bike inside a Toronto TTC vehicle (bus, streetcar or train) during morning and evening rush hours. It’s fine outside of those hours, but you still need to be careful and courteous, especially if the vehicle fills up after you’ve boarded. My bike once slipped from my grasp on a train one weekend and banged into a woman. She was rightfully annoyed with me even though I apologized profusely.

    19. JamieS*

      I think almost everyone is assuming the father was elderly because he’s the father in law to the CEO who’s likely at least middle aged. I’m not sure why though. For all I know the wife is a 20 year old trophy wife and her father is a strong strapping 38 year old.

      1. fposte*

        Because it’s likelier that he’s not, and because it doesn’t really change the fact that the OP was in the wrong for ignoring a request to cede his seat.

        1. JamieS*

          I think it’s incredibly a CEO has a young wife with a relatively young father. No if the wife or father aren’t infirm and the wife was rude (both of which may or may not actually be true) then OP wasn’t morally in the wrong.

          1. fposte*

            I think the OP still would have been morally in the wrong, because you respond to people who ask for your seat and you give it up unless you have a reason not to. It doesn’t matter if they’re asking about somebody with snowy hair or not.

            I get that you don’t see that as an axiom; the fact is that enough people take the same view that it’s not hugely surprising that the CEO’s wife and the CEO do, and you get to hire according to rules you consider important to civilization.

            1. Naruto*

              Regardless of how the question of giving up the seat plays out, flatly ignoring a person who directly addresses you like that is morally in the wrong.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            You have no way of knowing if someone asking for your seat truly needs it; plenty of young people have invisible disabilities. It’s rude to ignore any request from someone who indicates they’re in need of help. You can certainly explain that you need the seat after all (because perhaps you have your own disability), but simply ignoring it violates the social contract and is callous.

            1. Jamie*

              Yeah, the optics here are terrible regardless of whether the OP was justified in keeping the seat. It doesn’t matter how rude the woman allegedly was, ignoring the request makes the OP look just as bad if not worse, period.

            2. JamieS*

              There’s no social contract requiring someone to engage a rude person. If you have a disability that’s not visible it’s your responsibility to say that. It’s not my responsibility to assume you’re disabled.

              Also there are ways to be able to pretty accurately tell if someone is disabled. If I see you sprinting full speed and then hopping onto the train with ease you aren’t getting my seat due to disability.

              1. Observer*

                The OP made it clear that it would not have made a difference, because they were not sitting in a seat reserved for disabled people.

              2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                JamieS, I have asked you repeatedly to stop repeating this idea that you can tell if someone is disabled. I’m now temporarily placing you on moderation until you stop ignoring that.

              3. Ladyoh*

                No, you can’t. My sister looks very able and fit. She is not, at all. She could possibly ‘sprint’ to catch a bus (or such), but she absolutely would need that seat after. And she would need that seat regardless of that sprint. Unless she is having an episode you.can.not.tell. that she is disabled. And if she is having an episode she doesn’t get out of bed.
                You can NOT always tell, and you insisting that you can reflects badly on you.

              4. Jadelyn*

                JamieS, are you familiar with Spoon Theory? It’s a term coined to explain the way that disabled people have to “ration” energy and effort. Say you start the day with a bundle of 10 spoons in your hand. Taking a shower and getting dressed costs 2 spoons. Making dinner costs 3. The workday costs 5. You’ve only got 2 spoons left; better ration them wisely!

                And if you commute via train, consider: perhaps sprinting for a train before it leaves costs 1 spoon, but standing or sitting on an awful concrete bench for 20 minutes waiting for the next train will cost 2 or 3 spoons in terms of the pain it causes you. In that case, it makes perfect sense that a disabled person could decide it’s worth expending the effort in that moment, in order to avoid the greater pain cost that would result if they did *not* make that effort.

                This doesn’t make them any less disabled, and they absolutely could still need a seat once they’re on the train, even if they decided it was worth the cost to make a single, brief, heroic effort to sprint to catch the train before it left.

              5. Yomi*

                I have asthma, so if I had to rush to catch the train because in our system there frequently are 20-30 minutes between trains and missing it could make me a half hour late for work, it could easily trigger an asthma attack which I would need to sit down to stay recovering from. And I’m not making up this situation, this exact thing has happened to me. Someone offered me a seat before I even started to pull out my inhaler because they were just being nice.

                For most examples you can think of there are exceptions, and you can never know if the person you are refusing is the exception or not.

                And yes, I know that I shouldn’t run for the train like that. If our transit were more reliable I wouldn’t feel a need to. Like I said, exceptions. Life has too many variables to know what the person next to you is facing.

              6. Bagpuss*

                JamieS – that’s not how a lot of physical issues / disabilities work.

                I can walk or even run short distances without much problem but I cannot stand on a moving train for any length of time without being in significant pain, and because I have problems with my neck and shoulders holding on to pole or strap-haging is acutely painful

              7. AK*

                As far as I can tell,
                A) the age of the father in question,
                B) the (unlikely) possibility that he did not have a legitimate need for the seat,
                C) how rude the CEO’s wife was
                D) OP’s age and
                C) Who ‘started it’
                are in no way relevant, unless the OP somehow didn’t bother to mention that the father was doing cartwheels and acrobatics down the aisle while holding a completed certificate of good health done that very day, all while the CEO’s wife yelled ‘GET OUT OF YOUR SEAT YOU $#&#@(%&#@%!!!!’. I mean, if that did happen, OP should have mentioned. Otherwise there’s no reason to treat the request as being made in bad faith.

              8. Mookie*

                It’s not my responsibility to assume you’re disabled.

                No assumptions required when somebody explicitly asks for what they want rather than rely on you to assume something. You are not entitled to hear private details about someone’s health so that you can judge whether someone is disabled enough for your liking. And it’s not ‘your’ seat; most transportation authorities have made that clear by enforcing rules about manspreading and taking up additional seats for no good physical reason.

            3. hayling*

              Thank you! Having an invisible disability is the worst. Sometimes people argue with me when I ask for a seat, or they glare when I’m in the disabled section of the train and don’t offer my seat. If it wouldn’t actually be *more* uncomfortable, I’ve considered wearing a brace to make my disability more visible!

              1. a Gen X manager*

                I feel for you, hayling! When we know conditions are going to be challenging / crowded, my mother brings her cane because it helps to keep her stable on her feet, but even more so because it is a powerful visual cue to strangers to give her a bit of space and/or that she has mobility issues that you can’t see. The difference in response from strangers between bringing her cane and not bringing it is astounding.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  My mom keeps her cane in her car, and sometimes if I’m having a bad pain day I borrow her car (with its disabled parking placard) to do errands with so I don’t have to walk as much, especially for something like grocery shopping where I’ll have to be able to carry a bunch of stuff to the car when I’m done, and the combination of walking around the store, carrying stuff to the car, and carrying stuff upstairs to my apartment (plus putting everything away, which takes a lot of bending and stretching and stuff) would leave me totally wiped. On those days, I often do grab her cane from the backseat and take it with me purely as a visual marker, because as I’ve mentioned upthread I’m young and look “fit” to someone who doesn’t know me, and having a cane in hand even if I don’t really need it can “convince” strangers to leave me the hell alone about using a disabled parking placard. Otherwise…people can get really nasty about it.

                2. fposte*

                  @Jadelyn–In the states I’ve lived that would be a hella illegal use of the placard, though. It goes with the person, not the car.

                3. Jadelyn*

                  @fposte – I’m aware of that, but it’s also not the job of random strangers to enforce that rule, so I’m not sure why that’s relevant to a discussion of how differently strangers treat you when you have a visible mobility aid versus not having one.

                4. TootsNYC*

                  In my state as well.

                  Have you talked to your doctor about getting your own placard?

                5. fposte*

                  @Jadelyn–because they’re not wrong in their suspicion that you’re misusing the placard. I get it feels right to you, but that in combination with you using somebody else’s cane to look disabled is really troubling to me.

                6. Jadelyn*

                  @fposte – My point remains that IT IS NOT ANY OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS – or yours, for that matter – whether anyone is “misusing” a disabled placard, or sitting in a disabled seat, or otherwise using disability accommodations of some sort, which is the topic of this discussion in the sense that there’s been some back-and-forth about assumptions of disability and how people treat the invisibly disabled, versus the visibly disabled. Nobody made Random Stranger #7,884 the Official Gatekeeper of Who’s Disabled Enough to Deserve Accommodations, which is a thing that happens, a thing that I am addressing. I’m not using the placard for funsies, or because I’m feeling lazy. I’m doing it because my doctor is being a jerk about my getting my own placard, and I can’t switch doctors right now so for the moment I’m SOL and doing the best I can with the options I’ve got. I’m sorry you find that “troubling”, but that’s not my problem, and is in fact the *exact reason* I sometimes take the extra step of borrowing the cane, because it works as a visual signifier of “I am Not Well”, without which people are often jerks about the whole thing as a result of that sense of misplaced entitlement to audit other people’s level of physical ability which is at the heart of the current discussion.

                  And frankly, when my options are “be in nauseating pain the rest of the night and struggle with simple tasks because I Followed The Rules”, or “bend the rules with full permission of the person who’s helping me to do so, so that I can be a functional human being”, I’m going to go with the latter every time and not feel a single smidgen of guilt over it.

                  @TootsNYC – I’ve tried. It has not gone well thus far. My doctor seems to be of the opinion that unless you’re in a wheelchair full-time, you don’t deserve accommodations. And switching doctors isn’t really an option for me right now, unfortunately.

                7. fposte*

                  @Jadelyn–I don’t agree, but I think it’s clear we’re not going to see this one the same way.

                8. Zombii*

                  @Jadelyn | The reason you’re getting an unpopular reaction to this is because most people who advocate for random strangers to stop policing the disabled spots do it out of the belief that invisible disabilities are legitimate and the people who have those tags actually need them, regardless of how obvious that need may be.

                  When someone is abusing the system by borrowing a tag (even if they do legitimately need it, like you, but are running into problems with their doc), that undercuts the whole argument, because if there’s supposed proof some people are abusing the system, then it’s not completely out of line for random strangers to police that system (even though it really still is), you know?

                  I’m sorry about your doctor. S/he sounds like judgmental, uninformed an asshole. Good luck in finding a doc who will follow their commitment to do no harm. :)

                9. Mookie*

                  No one is sullying the good name of placards because a small minority are misusing them, any more than a handful of frauds have ruined social services and welfare programs such that they are now useless and tainted. Oversight is provided by the government, not self-appointed vigilantes. If someone’s commitment to ensuring the well-being of disabled people can be so easily shaken, that commitment wasn’t worth much, anyway.

          3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            The fact that you’re reaching this far to defend OP should be a clue that it’s not a terribly defensible point.

            2. JamieS*

              It’s not a reach to say the father may not be infirm and I’m not defending the OP. I’m disagreeing that assumptions should be taken as absolute fact.

              1. Observer*

                It’s a reach to claim that it’s at all likely that the father was a young and healthy person. It’s just so unlikely that insisting that people treat it as a real issue to contend with is reaching “bending into a pretzel” territory.

          4. CityMouse*

            FWIW my dad had his first knee surgery had 35, which was when I was a toddler. This is such a stretch it is exposing the silliness of your assumptions. You’reading trophy wife AND a young dad and then no other conditions.

            1. JamieS*

              Assuming a 35 year old had knee surgery is silly. It’s possible but it’s not extremely likely. I also never said the father didn’t need the seat. I disagreed that we should all make that assumption and take it as the truth with no consideration for other explanations.

              1. Parting Shot*

                Your comment only makes sense if someone tells you that the sight of a 35 year old getting onto the bus should be enough to make you offer your seat. That isn’t relevant here. In this scenario you were specifically asked for the seat, so nobody is asking you to make assumptions. The decent thing to do is to not immediately interrogate their medical history there on the bus, or presume that the person asking you is a statistical outlier so therefore doesn’t matter.

              2. CityMouse*

                Assuming a 30 year old had knee surgery is far less silly than assuming the CEO’s father in law was 38.

              3. JSM*

                James,
                I’m a 35 year old that has had 22 major surgeries, with another one soon. No one would look at me and see a disabled person. I don’t carry a cane or use a brace to walk but it costs me.
                I find it ridiculous that I feel the need to write to you on this matter just because you claim that a 35 year old needing a knee replacement is silly.

          5. Mazzy*

            Most CEOs are around 40. A “younger” wife would still be around 40, which means dad would be around 70. You’d be surprised how many 70yos are in bad shape despite the media acting as if everyone is living in perfect health until 80+

      2. Spreadsheets and Books*

        I’m 27 (and the oldest… my sibling is 24) and my dad is 63. Even a young trophy wife could have an aging parent.

          1. JamieS*

            Huh? How does the number wife she is impact the likelihood her parent is older? I’d say the chance someone in her 20s has an aging parent is the same whether the 20 year old is someone’s third or sixth wife.

            1. fposte*

              “From” is generative, not sequential.

              If her mom was a trophy wife, that means her dad is likely to be much older than her mother. If her grandma was a trophy wave, that means her grandfather is likely to be much older than her grandmother.

            2. blackcat*

              One of my friends (who is 29) has an 85 year old dad. He was already elderly and not super mobile when my friend was 18.

              2. Sandra-Dee*

                This. I, from all outward appearances am in excellent health with no physical problems. However, I sustained a pretty serious and permanent back injury in a car accident a couple of years ago, and while I can walk or stand in a way that could be viewed as “disability-free” for a short amount of time and distance, I certainly am not!! And if I push it and walk or stand for too long, I pay dearly for it. Nothing makes me more frustrated than the notion that because someone “looks” ok, they must be! It’s so completely inaccurate. You can’t possible ascertain someone’s situation by simply looking at outward appearances. So many times I am in terrible pain, but I force myself to walk in a way that defies that because I don’t want anyone to know!

            2. Kate 2*

              Yes, thank you so much for this Allison! I am only in my late twenties, and I look much younger, but I have a few different conditions that could make it difficult for me to stand on any given day, such as hypoglycemia, inner ear issues, and migraines. It means a lot to me that people are reminding others that hidden disabilities exist.

            3. WPH*

              Thank you for repeating this. I was fortunate enough to work at a non-profit for an invisible disability very early in my career so I have realized for a very long time that “sick people don’t always look sick.” So I am admittedly surprised that some people are so adamant that all disabilities are visible. This has been a good reminder for me.

          2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            Because of course they’ll have “I have neuralgia” or “Sciatica Sufferer” tattooed on their forehead to meet your evidentiary requirements.

            1. SarahKay*

              This! I had my first sciatica attack when I was 35. I looked fine, as long as I didn’t have to stand up at which point I most definitely did not look fine. Oddly enough I could (and usually can, when it flares up, as it does from time to time) walk in reasonable comfort, but standing…not so much. After about five minutes I’m starting to be in serious pain, and a packed train doesn’t give me enough room to move around to ease the pain.

              1. Jadelyn*

                I’m the same way – I can manage walking around for much longer than if I’m required to stay standing in one place. Even on bad pain days I can walk around for probably 30 minutes before I start hurting too badly, but I can only do about 10 minutes of standing before the pain gets intense enough that I have to sit down.

      4. Katie the Fed*

        OK, despite the incredible stretch here, usually if someone asks you for your seat, they’re not doing it to just deny you a seat. They NEED it.

        1. Myrin*

          Seriously. I don’t see why someone would just randomly ask another person on public transport to give up their seat for their strapping 38 year old father. Sure, people do all kinds of dumb stuff to annoy and aggravate others but that would certainly be a new one.

          1. EleonoraUK*

            Completely agree. Even if there are perfectly healthy, lazy people abusing this convention for their own gain, you give up your seat, because 99.99% of people asking for a seat need one, regardless of whether you can see why with your own two eyes.

      5. Courtney W*

        I don’t think his age is particularly relevant either way – many disabilities are invisible, and ignoring someone who needs a seat is rude.

        1. Moose and Squirrel*

          Exactly. There are dozens of reasons that someone could need a seat that aren’t visible. Several commenters have mentioned various reasons already. The “you don’t look sick” thing gets old fast for those who are sick or in pain.

      6. KR*

        Okay I’m just going to say it, trophy wife isn’t a very nice way to refer to someone. You don’t have to agree with me and I’m not interested in a discussion but that’s my opinion.

      7. Observer*

        Because that’s a ridiculously unlikely scenario. Even if she’s a “trophy wife” ( a term I despise) I doubt that she’s 19 with a father who was 19 when he had her, AND she’s taking care of him.

      1. Recruit-o-Rama*

        This is to no one in particular, just a comment on this thread in general, but can we stop with the “trophy wife” thing. Women are not property to be “won” as a trophy is, even if a particular woman happens to be younger than her husband.

        1. Juli G.*

          We did stop with Trophy Wife. It’s why there’s no more Bradley Whitford on my TV. :(

          (Sorry, a little levity! But co-sign your point).

    21. ReallyNeedToGetBackToWork*

      So, I thought this, too, initially. But there’s something off about the letter as a whole; this isn’t about a sequence of tiny incidents so much as it’s about blame. The writer sounds like someone without an ounce of self-awareness, and more than a little tendency to blame others. S/he was virtually promised the job — really? The other lady “rudely” asked — really? And surely the other lady “badmouthed” the writer — really?

      The overwhelming thought I had is that this is a person who cannot conceive of not getting or deserving what they want, and if that happens it MUST be someone’s fault, not their own. There is not the slightest idea in this person’s head that they read too much into the encouraging words of the HR person, or that an interview with the CEO is more than a formality, or that possibly s/he isn’t as slick as they suppose. And when the slightest glimmer of self-doubt does appear (as in, “gee, it seems I was rude to the CEO’s wife and father in law, maybe that was part of it”) rather than feel chagrined, the writer reacts with “but she was rude first.”

      Kindness matters. Self-reflection matters. Taking ownership of our failings matters. Personal responsibility matters. Humility matters.

      Original poster: it almost never reflects well on you to deflect responsibility for your actions. Whether someone was rude or not, you had an opportunity for kindness, and you missed it. Whether someone considered you a shoe-in for the job or not, the decision maker disagreed. Rather than squealing “unfair” or cynically offering to do the right thing only after having been “caught,” you’d be far better served to humble yourself, tell a mentor that you’re not sure why you failed, but you would be really grateful to hear what you could work on in the future.

      2. paul*

        Yep. I’m not getting into the dos and don’ts of mass transit; I’ve never lived in an area where it was really a thing (we kind of sort of have a bus service here but its schedule and routes are awful) so I’m not familiar with it myself. But the letter seemed to assume everyone else acted horrible and OP was innocent of everything.

        If you run into a jerk, you ran into a jerk. If you run into jerks all day, you should check yourself.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        I kind of got that impression too, or that they were miffed about it and looking for someone to blame. I understand their consternation at not getting the job, but the situation seems weighted very much in favor of the OP being at fault here.

      4. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Yeah, I actually expected the OP (from the overall tone in the letter and th heading) to end with how he had been told by the recruiter that the wife had lodged a complaint (or at least that they’d gotten a bad reference) or something.
        But this is all the OP’s assumption.

        I mean, I’m pretty sure he’s right and I would’ve said something if I was the CEO’s wife, but he can’t be certain. Seeing the woman in the lobby and guessing that she recognized him and told the CEO which lead to him not being offered the job… I can’t fathom why the OP would frame it as DEAD CERTAIN that is what happened.

        1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

          Or rather, I CAN understand what kind of person would frame their letter like that and that’s why RNTGBTW (hope the abbr is ok?) is so great.

          OP, you are probably right about what happened and why you weren’t offered the job. But read through your letter again and imagine you hadn’t written it. That you read it on AAM just like we did.

          What would you advice the LW?
          What would you have done if you were the woman? Maybe you don’t have an elderly parent but a kid? Or could you imagine yourself having a terrible bout of flu and being in that train and asking someone for a seat?
          It’s hard, but try to look at what happened and not what you feel/felt.

          If a friend had told you the story, what advice would you give them?
          What if you’d been the CEO?

          And maybe reflect more broadly on how we act in public vs how we “are as people”. Some people believe we are just the sum of our actions, others say that intention is what really matters. What do you think? What behavior outside of work would you find unacceptable in a colleague?
          (An extreme example: most people don’t want to work with child molesters, but most jobs involve no contact with children. So why should the person’s behavior outside of work, not remotely related to their work, mean they can’t work there?)

          Everyone is rude at times. Is there a point where one stops being a decent person? Like, how rude can a person be and still claim they’re friendly and nice? What excuses do you think are ok?
          I tend to not care if parents with screaming toddlers are rude to be on the bus because having a screaming toddler is super stressful. But I can get very offended by a young teen pushing past me, even though I have no idea why they were rude.

          You don’t HAVE to do anything but they’re useful things to think about. Even if you hadn’t been in this situation, it never hurts to reflect on oneself and one’s behavior and assumptions one makes.

      5. AthenaC*

        Going along with your comment, and possibly related to this situation –

        I have noticed recently(*) that quite a few people feel entitled to be the karma arm of the universe. If I think someone was rude to me, I will be rude back because they “deserve” it. If someone asks me for something but they aren’t nice enough I will say no because they don’t “deserve” my kindness.

        In addition to being a poor life strategy for the reasons shown by this letter, it’s really corrosive to your character to decide that you’re allowed to be unkind or rude for any reason. It’s better for you and for everyone around you to be as consistently polite and kind as practical.

        (*) To be clear, not intended to be a “kids these days” or an “awful modern times” observation.

    22. Sue Wilson*

      I have to say, unless I saw that the man was elderly, injured or seemed unable to balance well, I probably would have ignored the request too.
      Rudeness is not one of those ways.

      As far as my mother, who is disabled, is concerned (and I agree) if it has to get to the point where someone has to ask for their elderly relative to get a seat, then you’ve already been rude by not offering it. It’s part of the social contract, imo, that we proactively take care of those who need help, and being elderly is in that class. In addition, I believe we should assume that someone asking for help needs it, especially considering that “injured or unable to balance well” are not NEARLY all the reasons someone might be disabled or need a seat, and certainly all those ways aren’t always visible, and we shouldn’t be asking people to disclose. Even when my mother is asking for a seat in the disability section, she always asked for able-bodied people to do so, because she knows age isn’t a sign of health.

      1. Temperance*

        Okay I really disagree with this. You never, ever know why someone is not offering a seat. Does your mother actually announce “I need to sit down so any able-bodied person, please give me a seat”, or does she approach the youngest looking person and assume that they’re healthy?

        1. Sue Wilson*

          She says “I’m disabled, can someone who doesn’t need the disability seating please let me sit?” I’m honestly not sure what you disagree with.

          1. Temperance*

            Sorry, I was assuming it was like all the other commenters here who just assume that anyone who is young-looking and not using a mobility aid must be able-bodied and is therefore a jerk for not immediately moving. Your mother handles it appropriately.

          2. TL -*

            Yup. Best script I’ve heard to to approach someone and say, “do you need that seat?” or something along those lines.
            But honestly, you have a pretty good chance if you approach someone young and healthy looking and usually when you ask, people who feel comfortable standing up will tend to offer even if you were asking someone else.

        2. The Other Katie*

          But in this case, we do know why the OP didn’t offer a seat, because she said so – she wanted to read.

      2. CityMouse*

        I had a knee injury after an accident. It was in the winter so my brace was usually covered by my pants. I get on the train at an outer station so I never had to ask for a seat, but if i had my pain would be invisible. Just ignoring me would have been pretty mean as an experienced rider knows, you use your knees to balance in a sudden stop.

      3. KR*

        Eh, I’ve heard from wheelchair bound and disabled relatives that how everyone jumps to assist them all the time gets a little aggravating and can even get offensive sometimes. I don’t think OP is rude just for not offering as soon as they see an elderly possibly disabled person.

        1. TulipRose*

          I’ve actually been snapped at on more than a few occasions for offering an older person a seat. A woman lectured me for the rest of our ride together that you shouldn’t assume someone’s age or ability to stand.

          As a fat woman who’s been offered a seat more than once under the assumption that I’m pregnant, I also tend not to offer my seat to someone I “suspect” of being pregnant. Only if it looks they’re about to give birth that minute do I offer, because I know how it feels to have people think your fatness must be a pregnancy. Someone actually once said to me, “Do you need a seat or are you just fat?”

          1. Discordia Angel Jones*

            Yeah it’s awkward. I never want to say “dude, I’m just fat” so I tend to say “No, don’t worry, I’ll stand” but a couple of times (usually when it’s a lady offering me a seat funnily enough) they have really gone “Please, please take my seat pregnant lady” and it’s SO mortifying. Particularly since I am shy and insecure anyway!

            Your comment is pretty much why I don’t offer seats unless asked any more (although, I have had much stronger negative reactions than being snapped at, which doesn’t help).

          2. Sue Wilson*

            that you shouldn’t assume someone’s age or ability to stand.
            Did she realize that asking if someone needs a seat is NOT an assumption or? Like I get that people have had bad reactions from people, and fair enough if you don’t want the hassle, but as we see in this situation, you might still get a hassle. Of the two, I think the error is best left to being kind.

        2. Sue Wilson*

          Well, honestly, they’re going to have to explain what’s aggravating or offensive about “do you need this seat?” Like, on the balance between offering to people who don’t need the help and not offering to people who do but can’t ask? I’d rather not do the latter. But I can admit that this was the culture I was brought up in.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I’m with you on this, Sue. I have been lectured for asking someone if they would prefer my seat (because I was raised in a culture where you immediately offer a seat to folks who are at least one generation older than you, pregnant, or visibly mobility-impaired). And I’ve been lectured by folks in wheelchairs about the problematic assumptions of non-wheelchair users.

            I still offer people my seat; I just make sure I ask if they need a seat/assistance, as opposed to standing and immediately assuming they need my seat. Nine times out of 10, the person is grateful that they didn’t have to ask. And if someone made a request like your mother’s request—which sounds perfectly worded—I would offer my seat then, too.

            I think it’s ok for people to wait to be asked, only because there are valid arguments that suggest affirmatively assuming someone may need your seat is infantilizing to that person. But once someone asks, it’s pretty poor form to ignore them, as opposed to giving up your seat or disclosing that you cannot give yours up for [whatever legit (medical) reason].

            1. Optimistic Prime*

              That’s how I usually do it, too. And I typically ask people “Would you like to sit down?”

      4. Kate 2*

        I mentioned this above, but when I am on the bus or train, I don’t look up at every single stop and watch all the people getting on and whether or not they have gotten a seat and guess about their age/possible disabilities.

        If someone needs a seat, just ask. Just because someone hasn’t noticed that an elderly person has boarded, it doesn’t make them a bad person, which is what your post seems to say.

        Also some people wear headphones or earbuds. I have a lot of black hair, and when I wear my black headphones people don’t always notice. So they might not be hearing someone ask.

    23. CEMgr*

      If the man did not appear in need of a seat, I feel it would have been acceptable to politely decline to give up one’s seat. But to completely ignore the request was not good behavior.

      1. Jessica*

        Have you not been reading this thread? I think there have been many examples offered of disabilities and legitimate need that would not immediately be apparent. I think it’s acceptable to decline if you yourself have a (possibly invisible) need, but not because the other person doesn’t “appear” to need it. What do you want, a doctor’s note? The mass-transit social contract is founded on people being honest when they ask for the resources they need. There seems to be a substantial body of evidence that people mostly are honest about this, and if anything, the error is in the other direction (people having legit need and still not wanting to ask for help).

        1. TootsNYC*

          And even if a few people have figured out how to “game the system” by asking for a seat when they don’t need it, our world is still better off if we just let them get a seat.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        How can you determine, though, if someone “appears” to be in need of a seat? 99% of people who ask for a seat do so because they need it. It seems dangerous to make the determination based on one’s (limited) perception of whether someone truly **needs** your seat.

    24. Ann O. Nymous*

      Yeah, as someone who lives in a big city and takes the subway daily, I think what the LW did was rude but not “reflects a serious lack of character” rude. People ignore people on the subway all the time, especially when they’re treated rudely. I think it’s off-base for other commenters to imply that LW is an unmitigated asshole unworthy of this job opportunity because he was a jerk one time on a transit system where people tend to behave jerkier than usual.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        We all have moments where we’re not at our best. But ideally you realize it later and cringe a bit and regret it. In this case, the issue is that there doesn’t seem to be any of that going on.

        2. Ann O. Nymous*

          That’s fair. I don’t think a single incident like this is indicative of someone’s bad character. I will agree that sending this letter to you with this kind of tone & argument that lacks introspection is more evident of a rude/self-centered personality than the single anecdote presented in the letter. So I think it’s fair to call attention to that, but it does seem like some of these comments seem to be way more judgmental about OP’s character than I think is warranted. I feel like this could become a pile-on (if it isn’t already) and I hope that you discourage that.

        3. Zombii*

          I thought the issue was LW seemed to misinterpret a lot of what happened during the interview process and when confronted with failure, went looking for the first possible explanation that wasn’t all their fault— except that by some quirk of personality and circumstance, that explanation was still all their fault.

          LW still needs to reflect, take a lesson, and move forward but the whole mess with the CEO’s wife on the train is a red herring and I think it has a lot less to do with why they didn’t get the job than they’re assuming. Leave that part out and this is every other letter you’ve ever gotten about how everything was going so well with the company, but I still didn’t get the job—what happened?!

      2. Sal*

        I agree with this. I have been less than my best self on the subway, always in response to someone else not being their respective best self (think: other guy says something rude, I say something shirty in response, other guy tells me to do something anatomically improbable, I call him the nastiest word in the general lexicon), and I’m not actually sorry. I’d be exceedingly sorry, however, if that had been my interviewer’s husband. (Or if our exchange had led to physical violence.)

        I think the LW has to let this one go.

        1. D.A.R.N.*

          This is where I fall. It may be unfair, because it was something OP worked hard for and may have been just one instance, but there’s nothing to do about it now except remember it for the future. Sorry, OP.

      3. Optimistic Prime*

        You know, I think this is where my mismatch is coming up. I’ve almost always lived in crowded urban areas and ignoring people who have been rude to you (especially on public transit) is pretty normal – and sometimes, honestly the best response to avoid escalating a situation. Not that I think the OP should’ve ignored someone asking for their seat, but it doesn’t seem like a serious lack of character to me, probably because of that cultural standpoint.

    25. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If his daughter is the wife of a CEO, then he is probably elderly.

      As someone with an invisible disability, I would not have been able to give up my seat, but I would have acknowledged the request and apologized instead of outright ignoring it.

      1. Connie-Lynne*

        Yes, this. I have knee problems and vertigo, and I look relatively young, so you cannot tell from looking at me that I need to sit. Nevertheless, I have occasionally had to explain that I cannot relinquish a seat on the train because I need one. “I’m sorry, I have bad knees,” or “I’m sorry, I have a disability and need to sit.”

        It amazes me how many people ignore my requests for a seat. It seems it’s always young women and old men who give up their seats. The young men sitting in their phones with headphones in, studiously ignoring me, might possibly have invisible disabilities, but it seems statistically unlikely that every single one of them does.

    26. Liane*

      1-As any Miss Manner fan–of which I am one–can tell you folks who are so kindly concerned about our OP being wronged by a blatantly disrespectful fellow-rider, the best way to deal with another’s rudeness is to be perfectly polite. Like rising from one’s comfy bus seat while saying in a sympathetic tone, with your sweetest smile, “Oh yes, ma’am, of course, your dad can have my seat. It must be so very frustrating finding someone who will give up their place.”

      2-“But she (substitute favorite pronoun) started it!” is not a statement that should be made by a mature, professional person.

      3-The only thing I don’t understand, is how the OP managed to accidentally bump Mrs. CEO with their bike. The only buses I have seen where you can bring you bike along, have a rack mounted on the *outside* front. Did the OP almost drop the bike removing it from the rack or some similar accident, and Mrs. CEO was right there, because Murphy’s Law?

      1. Kate*

        To answer #3 – the OP said she was on a train, and at least on the DC Metro, there are designated cars where riders bring their bikes on the train with them (you would not put it on the front). In that case, most riders with bikes try to minimize the space they are taking up by standing with their bikes, but I can see how on a crowded train, you might bump someone and get them dirty. The letter doesn’t say how OP reacted in the moment, but I suspect Mrs. CEO was already peeved due to their earlier interaction, so the bike thing was just icing on the cake.

        1. Liane*

          Thanks for explaining how this works. I haven’t lived anywhere with a really good, extensive public transportation system, just basic bus service.

    27. Artemesia*

      On the other hand the OP behaved rudely so it is hard to judge whether she is a good judge of rudeness. The CEO’s wife’s father is likely to be elderly; if the CEO and his wife are say 50s then her father is at least 70 and probably 80 or more. The fact that she asked for her father and not herself is a clue that he NEEDed the seat as opposed to wanted a seat.

    28. Ghostlight*

      I think the overall tone of the letter gives off a sense of entitlement and rudeness, but I think the two actions on the train are at the least understandable depending on the situation.

      So many people on crowded public transit jump to inescapable escalation and threats after trying to start a conversation or ask a question, so I frequently ignore people trying to speak to me on the train, especially if they start the interaction already keyed up or rude at all.

      I also understand not stopping and taking a bunch of time to apologize and try to fix the situation after bumping into someone on the train with a bike – the doors are only open for so long and when the train is busy, especially trying to get through the crowd of people between you and the exit with a large item like a bike or suitcase, stopping to apologize more thoroughly than “oh no I’m sorry about that!” for something frankly very commonplace (being bumped into on the train) and risking not being able to get off the train at my stop on the way to work wouldn’t be something I would be willing to do.

      It sounds like LW did all this with a sense of entitlement and brusqueness from the overall tone of the letter, and likely didn’t apologize to the woman on the train at all, but I think the actions themselves are not as reprehensible as many commenters are suggesting.

      1. Observer*

        Bumping into someone is not the same as bumping into them with your bike – that’s always a big deal, even without getting the coat dirty. What’s more, it’s reasonable to believe that the OP would have mentioned any apology had there been one. So, while I don’t think the OP is a monster, I do think that this is more than just “not so polite”.

      2. Jessie the First (or second)*

        “so I frequently ignore people trying to speak to me on the train”

        A fair number of people agree with you, based on my previous experience with a temporary disability desperately trying to find a way to sit on crowded subways – sometimes, I would ask for a seat and be completely ignored. And yeah, that led to injury because I *needed* the seat, I wasn’t asking just for kicks.

        If someone is asking for a *seat* for pete’s sake, do not ignore. Ignore people randomly trying to small talk with you? Sure. Ignore people who need to sit because of a disability? That’s an awful thing to do, and it reflects poorly on you.

    29. Just Another Techie*

      We can’t know if the father is genuinely disabled with something not immediately visible or if the wife was just entitled. I will say, though, as someone who cares for invisibly disabled family members, the stress and anxiety of caretaking sometimes gets to me to the point where I fail at social niceties. It doesn’t mean my family member’s need is any less, but I am so focused on my worry about what will happen if Dad falls again and it re-opens his stitches and he starts bleeding and I have to get him to a hospital and and and that I forget to say please, and it certainly doesn’t occur to me to take ten minutes to recite my father’s entire medical chart in order to prove he needs a seat. I just want him safely sitting down!

    30. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Le sigh… I feel like this is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I do feel for the LW. Public transit systems can be brutal and really seems to to bring out the worst in all

      I get why the LW ingnored the intial request. I am a youngish and very able-bodied *looking* person. What people don’t know is that I have an invisible injury/joint issue that makes it very hard to stabilize myself while standing on the subway and that when I do stand it puts me at serious risk of re-injury. I purposely plan my commute for less crowded times/options. I’ve had people react so rudely (either passive aggressively by mumbling under their breath while staring at me or outright aggressively by yelling or otherwise causing a scene) when I’ve politely explained that I have an injury that requires a seat.

      In my experience… (And my experience only, everyone on here can swear up and down they would not react this way)… Anyone who asks for your seat has already decided that they need the seat more that you do and nothing you say will change their mind about that.

      So yeah, I’ve taken to ignoring requests, in the hope that someone else will hear the request and give up their seat. That usually does work – other person gets a seat and I don’t get accosted. I’m sorry that it is a “rude” approach overall, but the world is not black and white and we’re all doing the best we can.

      As for the LW – this sucks. I get why you acted the way you did. The combination of ignoring + the bike smudge (depending on your reaction to the bike smudge) was probably a bit rude overall – but life happens. Everyone on here who is condemning you has also been rude to someone else within their life (we all make mistakes or have bad days or have things come out wrong). You just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and a moment that would have otherwise been brushed off and never thought of again happened to follow you and most likely caused you to lose this opportunity. It stings, but that is life.

      Take this as a learning experience – no matter how much you plan for and how hard you work, random things can happen. Also – really evaluate how you behaved on train. If you think you can do better going forward, then strive to do that.

      1. Sal*

        I appreciate your explanation of the rationale for ignoring these requests. It’s an under-represented viewpoint today but I think it’s a valid perspective.

      2. What time is it? Showtime*

        This is very well-written.

        I in no way think the OP should be upset about losing out on this job. Just as the CEO’s wife’s rudeness caused her to lose out on a seat for her father from OP, OP’s reaction caused her to lose out on the job. I don’t think OP was horribly wrong for ignoring the woman because she was rude, it’s just unfortunate and unlucky for the OP that she was who she was.

      3. Vanessa*

        Thanks for this perspective, Sunshine on a cloudy day. I, too, have an “invisible” disability — an autoimmune disorder that causes severe neuropathy in my feet and hands. It’s not possible for me to stand for long periods of time on Metro, but as a woman in my late 20s who appears able-bodied, I’m used to getting dirty looks when I don’t hop up when someone who is elderly, pregnant or visibly disabled boards the train.

        Last winter the neuropathy got so bad I needed a cane to get around. One day, I boarded, leaned my cane between the seat and the window and settled in for my 40 minute commute. The car gradually filled, until a pregnant woman boarded with her father. I was engrossed in a book, so I didn’t realize he was talking to me when he announced, “My daughter needs a seat.” When no one moved, he singled me out. “You,” he said, grabbing me by the shoulder, “my daughter needs that seat.” I was so shocked by the fact he’d touched me that I grabbed my cane and let the other woman sit down.

        Thankfully, another commuter hopped up from one of the seats deeper in the car and helped me to it, but it’s so true that once someone has decided their need for a seat is greater than yours, they will not take no for an answer.

        1. fposte*

          That sucks, but it’s not universally true; I’ve had people take no for an answer.

      4. Observer*

        Actually, I’ve seen people be perfectly polite about being refused a seat. But, I do understand your perspective, and I understand why you would be hesitant to risk that. But, the OP doesn’t have that excuse. And, you also have the self-awareness to understand why it looks rude to others. The OP doesn’t have that either – and that’s a big part of the problem here. Had the OP written “I can’t stand and was afraid that the woman would give me a hard time” I bet that Alison’s response would have been “That comes off as rude, even though you had a perfectly valid reason for acting this way.” As opposed to her actual reaction.

        What makes it worse is that the OP then proceeded to bump this woman and stain her coat and doesn’t think that an apology was in order. I think that’s a key piece of this. The first rudeness was one thing. The combination really looks very bad.

        1. Preggo lady*

          +1 and this “Anyone who asks for your seat has already decided that they need the seat more that you do and nothing you say will change their mind about that.” actually made me really sad. I’m currently pregnant and, although I haven’t had to ask for a seat yet, if I do have to, it will be because you’re the person that happens to be nearest to, not because I’ve assumed you’re the person least in need. If you were to say, ‘Sorry, but I’ve actually got a joint problem so would really appreciate sitting down’, I wouldn’t be angry – but perhaps that’s because I used to suffer with joint problems myself so accept that not everybody who looks ‘healthy’ actually is. I can understand how one or two angry answers could put you off answering the question full stop.

      5. Toph*

        I think the social contract goes both ways. One can’t necessarily see the need of the person asking for the seat; we just have to take their word they’re asking because they have a genuine need (which they don’t necessarily need to articulate)). Likewise, if I’m an asker and the sitter declines, I have to take their word that they themselves need the seat, even if they decline to elaborate why. We can simultaneously have invisible reasons for needing to sit, and neither of us is required to go into a detailed medical explanation. I have to trust an asker asked for a reason, and that a sitter elected to continue to sit for a reason. Sure, sometimes there will be people who ask just because they want to sit and figured, why not ask and see if I get a seat out of it? And sure, sometimes there will be people who decline to stand who perhaps plain didn’t want to stand and nothing else. Both of these are possible, but hopefully if we’re starting from a standpoint of assuming most people will mostly be reasonable most of the time, both sides should be taking each other at face value. I completely understand the impulse to not talk to strangers on transit, especially when sometimes engaging may seem dangerous if someone is creepy. But I do think if we’re going to consider the need of the asker as “they wouldn’t ask if they didn’t need to” then we also need to consider that if the request is denied there is need on the other side. The problem with the letter writer is they just ignored it. If the LW had a reason (besides reading), they could’ve (should’ve) said that in the letter. I don’t think they need to even necessarily say it to the CEO’s wife. If they’d just said on the train “I’m sorry I can’t, maybe try someone else?” the wife wouldn’t know, did this person have a torn miniscus? A recent heart transplant? Low blood pressure? Other? Or were they just a person unwilling to budge? It could be any of those things. By not even attempting to respond, the LW makes it sound more likely it’s just the latter. If the letter came in almost as-is, but the LW had indicated “I have xyz invisible reason”, then the advice would be slightly different: politely decline on the train and otherwise let it go. Or if the letter had indicated they’d politely declined, and even given outloud the reason no, that’s different too. But in this case, regardless of what else may be going on with the LW, based on the info they provided, what they did on the train was not cool, and regardless of whether it actually had an impact on the job, it’s good for the LW to learn it wasn’t cool and (hopefully) have that color their actions moving forward. My problem with the LW isn’t that they didn’t give up a seat, it’s the rest of how they acted according to their own description.

      6. D.A.R.N.*

        Agreed. The anxiety over being accosted on a train makes me ignore people 99% of the time I ride one. This isn’t black and white.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          I think being in public, using a shared resource, means that you need to at least be receptive to the occasional unprompted conversation with a stranger on some topic or another. Whether it’s “can I have your seat” or “what’s the time” or “can you tell me how to get to Teapot St,” I think you need to be prepared for people to say stuff to you, anxiety or not.

      7. JoyOfMotion*

        +1, beautifully put across. I’m taken aback by the number of pitchforks out for this OP. I hope they see your comment amongst the rest.

      8. Mookie*

        I get why the LW ingnored the intial request.

        Well, I get why you would and have in the past as you’ve described, but what is the LW’s excuse? They don’t have a disability. And it’s okay, in a civil society, to make judgment calls and triage people according to their needs. Sometimes somebody needs the seat (the blood transfusion, the hospitable bed, the food allowance, the subsidized housing) more than you and sometimes they only think they do; it’s not a sin to be wrong about such an assumption and why you should object to saying this out loud — that some people should give up their seats when others around them need them — is not clear, but it is reality, nonetheless. We are not so dainty that we can’t acknowledge this.

        You just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and a moment that would have otherwise been brushed off and never thought of again

        Again, that’s the OP’s perspective, not an objective one, ignoring the experiences of the other two people involved (who probably couldn’t quite wipe the memory from their minds as readily as the OP did).

      9. Bob*

        Agreed–people who don’t use mass transit for their commute just don’t get it. It’s tough for everyone and easy to zone out and ignore anyone who seems rude or agitated.

        I find it really strange that people can’t imagine that the lady who wanted the seat was rude. People can be really nasty, which is hard to deal with when you’re in mass transit, so people tend ignore rather than deal with the person. Even if the father should have been given the seat, it’s understandable that the LW tuned her out. That’s what happens when you’re crammed in with a bunch of people.

        1. Observer*

          The thing is that a lot of the people who have responded actually DO use public transit. And, the OP didn’t just “zone out” and not hear. The OP, according to the letter, decided to ignore the asker because she seemed rude to him and because it wasn’t a designated handicapped seat.

          What most people were saying about the rudeness is that 1. It doesn’t really matter unless she was acting crazy rude and 2. It’s fair to question the OP’s evaluation, due to the attitude the OP shows. It turns out that the latter was spot on – the OP posted and admitted that in retrospect, he realizes that it was a pretty reasonable ask.

    31. Decima Dewey*

      If I’m on public transit and I’m asked to move my bag so someone can sit, I move my bag so they can sit. Regardless or their tone of voice or the way they worded it, if they had to ask, my bag was in their way. And my bag takes up less space (and is less likely to stain someone’s clothing) than a bike.

      It doesn’t matter who started it, and OP doesn’t know that’s why he/she didn’t get the job.

    32. Jaguar*

      Yeah, that popped out to me as well. There’s important context that taking public transit often makes people kinda miserable, and that goes up the busier transit gets. OP should have proactively given up the seat to the older gentleman no matter what and especially done so when asked, regardless of how rude, but it’s also incumbent on everyone to not be an ass on public transit, including making reasonable requests on other passengers. It’s the difference between “excuse me” when you’re trying to exit a crowded train and a frustrated “could you move!?” You have every right to have a path to the exit, but be a decent human about it.

      Again, this isn’t to excuse the OP’s behaviour, but to incriminate the wife who, if we’re taking the OP at their word, sounds unpleasant as well.

      1. Jaguar*

        Hopefully this isn’t too off-topic, but there’s a somewhat related story I could add to my point.

        A few years ago, I was accompanying my dad to a doctor’s appointment. He has advanced Parkinson’s disease (the appointment was unrelated to that) and, with medication, his day oscillates between being completely immobile and able to walk and interact but with dramatically impaired balance.

        So, we were taking a bus, and he was mobile at the time but had his wheelchair with him. We took a pair of seats and tried to get the wheelchair out of the way as best possible. The bus became crowded pretty quickly. Eventually, I noticed a pregnant woman standing, so I offered her my seat. She then laid into me, rejecting my offer and taking me to task for not offering my seat to a kid that apparently boarded earlier that I was totally ignorant of. I was totally dumbfounded. Soon after, a woman and child boarded, and as I was preparing get up (and pull my dad with me), she shot me a look of expectation, like, “Are you going to not be an asshole now, The Only Person That Offered the Pregnant Woman a Seat?”

        I’m willing to accept my villainy in the situation, but being rude when someone else fails their moral obligation helps nobody except yourself. It’s just about you spreading your own misery. Do better.

        1. Kate 2*

          Oh man, I would have straight up told that woman, I don’t give my seat to kids. They are younger and have way more energy than I do, they can stand and hold on to the pole or a seat back like everyone else or a parent’s hand. I work, I am on my feet a lot, I am going to sit.

          1. Jaguar*

            Well, I’m strongly in favour of kids getting seats. It gets them out of the way, settles them down, prevents them from banging into things if the bus makes sudden movements, allows the parent to control them easier, etc.

            1. What time is it? Showtime*

              LOL, really? I find that when kids get a seat on the train, their parents STOP paying attention to them and they either stand up in the seats or turn around backwards to look out the windows and then kick their feet everywhere. I feel like standing forces their parents to pay more attention so they don’t let go of the pole and get flung halfway down the car if the train suddenly stops.

              1. Jaguar*

                Well, giving parents the opportunity to be responsible won’t mean that they will be. That’s not an argument against giving them the opportunity. You don’t run through a 4-way stop because some people go out of turn.

          2. Hellanon*

            I never give up my seat for a kids. I don’t even know that’s a thing to do.

            1. Blurgle*

              It sure is. Kids trip up other passengers and are more likely to be flung around if the bus has to stop. You always give up a seat for small kids for that reason.

              1. Jadelyn*

                Really? I don’t do public transit much anymore, but I used to, and this was never a thing that I saw or was made aware of. I don’t think it’s nearly as universal as the idea of giving up seats to someone elderly or pregnant, for example.

                1. fposte*

                  Yeah, that’s a new one on me too. I’ve given up a seat to somebody who was holding a kid who then put the kid in it, but that’s fine; it wouldn’t occur to me to stand up for a kid, and it’s not something that I’ve seen noted in etiquette stuff.

                  I can understand the point being made about kids being vulnerable, so I don’t object to the notion; it’s just not one that I encountered before.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  It’s pretty common when I’ve been on public transit, but it’s usually the child/parent duo that receive a seat (or the parent and multiple children), and often the child(ren) are all under 10. I’ve rarely seen someone offer their seat exclusively to a child without also looping in the parent (sometimes the parent will still stand, but they’re incorporated into the offer).

                3. Cherith Ponsonby*

                  Sometimes it’s even the other way around – on some public transport systems in Australia, schoolkids travelling on a concession ticket are supposed to give up their seats if adults are standing. (Obviously this depends on circumstances.)

            2. Squeeble*

              It’s a nice thing to do if the kid is energetic and would otherwise be trying to run around the train car, grab onto various things/people and probably hurt themselves.

              1. Jaguar*

                For me, the main thing is just let the parent and the kid sit down together on the bus / train / whatever. I’ve seen often where all the two-side-by-side seats are occupied by one person leaving the other seat vacant, parents come in and sit their kid in one seat and go and grab a different one themselves because nobody volunteers the pair they’re occupying one of. Like, you’re a grown-up, aren’t you? Just get up and let the mom and the kid sit together. Honestly, it’s shockingly frequent that the 5-year-old is not the most immature person on the bus.

          3. Thursday Next*

            I think a blanket policy like that is unnecessarily confrontational and closed-minded. I have a disabled 6-year-old. Some kids do need that seat more than you.

          4. Sensual shirtwaist*

            I agree with jaguar – with the proviso that it is strongly age/ mass dependant. Under 4 feet? It’s better for everyone if they’re in a seat. Not only are they at risk of getting squashed or whacked in the head as the bus fills up, but they are unlikely to be willing and able to hold them selves steady as the bus corners or brakes – caroming off other passengers instead. Small kids should sit on a parents lap if it’s crowded – safest for them and the most efficient use of space. Kids that are two big to sit on a lap but not obviously big enough to stand are a grey area and I think the best option is to ask and trust the parents will make the right call for their kid.

          5. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

            Yeah – I’m definitely not giving up my seat for kids (if I even could). From the time that I could stand until the time I moved out of my parents house my mother was adament that if there were ANY adults standing (disable/injured/pregnant/whatever or not) my brother and I were NOT to be sitting.

            Now I don’t expect kids to give their seat up to me or parents to enforce such strict guidelines themselves, but after a childhood of that – I’m sitting guilt free in front of kids.

          6. Artemesia*

            I’m one of those old crones who is quietly outraged when kids are given seats and older adults stand. If it is a toddler, put him on your lap — people with babies and toddlers should be given a seat. But older kids have a lot more energy than most adults and should be learning to let the Olds sit down. No wonder they sit there like sprawled on their phones while 85 year old men stumble in the aisle when they have been trained as kids that they are little princes and princesses who should go first and get the best.

            1. Umvue*

              It’s worth remembering that in some transit systems, the safety handles for standing passengers are above the head…

              I commute regularly with my five year old. She’s just starting to learn to be able to hold her own when the bus is in motion, for brief periods at least — but some drivers in our system have real lead feet. (There was a time last year when she got thrown to the floor twice in one ride because of a careless driver. One of those times involved stairs!) So while I don’t think I’d ask for a seat for her, at this point, and I certainly wouldn’t ask for one for me, I’m always grateful when someone is willing to move so that we can sit together. And generally somebody volunteers as soon as they see us — so I’m not sure that your mores are widely shared. (Honestly, there’s an element of self-defense involved: nobody wants to get drafted into a game of Kindergartener Frisbee.)

    33. Stellaaaaa*

      I rarely advocate lying, but OP could easily have said she was on her feet for 9 hours at a retail job, hurt her back the day before, busted her ankle in a bike fall, felt sick, etc as a way of responding to the request. It’s lousy to not give up the seat on general but I’d posit that it’s also weird to not have a better way of dodging the situation. Not every healthy young person is able to give up their train seat in the exact moment they are asked to do so and most reasonable people will understand that, if that message is communicated in some way.

    34. Observer*

      I haven’t read all of the responses to your comment, but I want to point out a few things.

      1. The OP says that one of their reason’s fore reacting the way they did was that it wasn’t a disabled seat. As others have noted, that’s a very poor reason given the limited number of seats. There is no indication that they thought that the father didn’t need the seat.

      2. The issue is not that the OP refused but that they ignored someone – and did so even though it’s a fair assumption that the father is old enough to need a seat.

      When you add that to apparently not apologizing for for messing up the woman’s coat, that’s a big issue, even if the woman knows that it was an accident rather than the op “getting back at her” for her rudeness.

    36. Yomi*

      We only have the OP’S description of it as rude and since they clearly point out that they weren’t designated disability seating, so they were not obligated to move, I don’t trust their barometer on rudeness.

      Also, invisible illness is a thing. I recently was in the city with my mom, who is not very old but has an invisible disability. As we walked back to the train she was having to stop every few hundred feet to rest. When the mostly full train pulled in, I rushed on ahead of the crowd to grab her a seat, and I would have asked for one if needed. There would have no visible signs of her disability or current pain to people who don’t know her well. If somebody had refused, we wouldn’t have gotten into a speech about what was wrong with her, we would have assumed they were a jerk and moved on. Instead, two people stood up to make room for new passengers so she was fine. Which is also good because we were on the train for over an hour.

      Even with my own illness, I don’t believe I have a “right” to sit that supercedes anybody else’s because I don’t know them, I don’t know their story and I don’t need to know in order to be kind and courteous. I just need to stand up sometimes.

    37. Jess*

      Actually, there is. The OP said that he ignored the request because he wasn’t sitting in a “designated disabled” seat. Pretty clear indication the OP thought that the father looked likely to warrant a “designated disabled” seat on request. Or maybe that was just a crappy excuse. Allison called this right.

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        No, that’s not a pretty clear indication of anything. The father may have “looked” disabled or not; the OP’s decision not to give up their seat may have been independent of that.

        1. Jess*

          Well, he said he decided to ignore the request since he wasn’t sitting in a designated disabled seat, so unless he’s lying, it wasn’t.

    38. Optimistic Prime*

      Yeah, this. I think the OP could’ve reacted more kindly, but there was absolutely nothing in the letter to indicate that the man requesting the seat was elderly or infirm and the OP did already say that the woman asked for the seat rudely.

  7. WellRed*

    I mean, he didn’t just refuse to give up the seat (really dude?) but he ignored the request to boot.

    1. Juli G.*

      Yeah, this is the issue here. Had OP said, “I’m sorry, I can’t”, it wouldn’t have been the kindest thing but okay, fine. Just ignoring her was not the best move.

    2. teclatrans*

      Yes, this. I was prepared to be on the fence about this one (on the one hand, give up your seat to elderly and inform, on the other, juggling bike plus paperwork is challenging, so maybe this is a learning opportunity), but “so I ignored her” was a record-scratch moment. That is downright rude and dismissive. If I were that woman, being ignored and shrugged off would make me baddest of all. (Even over the grease stain, unless OP shrugged that one off too.)

    3. Kathleen Adams*

      Yes, ignoring a request like this is…well, it’s pretty cold. It would have been better (not ideal but better) if the OP had come up with some sort of excuse. Lying and saying “I’m sorry but I’m not feeling well” isn’t ideal, but it’s better than treating someone making this sort of request as though she were something so obnoxious or inconsequential that she deserved to be ignored…oh, my. Bad. Bad bad bad.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Or even, “I’m sorry–I need to do some paperwork. Could someone else stand?”

  8. HisGirlFriday*

    I don’t want to pile on the OP, but Alison is spot-on. Your behavior 100% showed a facet of your character, and one that the CEO probably didn’t like very much. You acted, frankly, rude, entitled, and stuck-up.

    Any further contact you have regarding the job is basically going to read as, ‘I didn’t know I had to be polite to this random person because she could do something for me, so now that I’ve found out she’s important, I’m sorry I was rude.’

    That may not be how you mean for it to come off, but that’s how it’s going to come across.

    Chalk this up as a lesson learned, and maybe do some soul-searching about your own actions.

  9. MegaMoose, Esq.*

    Yeah, I don’t know if the convention is different in different places, but in my area, it doesn’t really matter if you’re sitting in a designated disabled seat or not – it’s just common courtesy to give up your seat to someone older/pregnant/mobility restricted. Ideally before requested, but certainly after. And if it’s a crowded train, it’s possible they just asked for the closest seat. The fact that the request was made rudely really doesn’t change that.

    It really, really stinks to lose a job that you think you have in the bag, but it happens all the time, even when you’ve basically been promised it. You simply have no guarantees until the offer is formally extended (and even there, sh_t happens). Better luck next time.

    1. Alex*

      I’ve ridden public transportation for years and only recently noticed the “priority seating” signs. It never occurred to me that some seats are meant to be given up first.

      I have flat feet and standing on the train is pretty painful after a while but you give up your seat because it’s just what you do. Not that I don’t still shoot dirty looks at all the other folks who pretended not to see the pregnant woman or elderly person right in front of them, of course.

      My advice to OP is to be kind, even if you think it doesn’t matter. Because it actually always does.

    2. paul*

      I don’t do mass transit–not much of an option anywhere I’ve lived–so I’m kind of fascinated. How old is old for purposes of this? Like is grey hair enough? Visible difficulty standing?

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Honestly, if someone asks, you should assume they need the seat more than you regardless of their appearance. In terms of giving up a seat without being asked, I generally will offer if someone appears to be having a hard time standing (or has a small child with them, or appear to be pregnant, or are carrying something maybe) but I try not to make assumptions based on apparent age.

      2. Artemesia*

        In Paris the magic age for being entitled to a seat is 75. In the US the rule of thumb is more ‘needs the seat’ So someone who is clearly quite elderly should be offered e.g. someone past 75 or so; someone who is clearly mobility challenged, has a cane, uses crutches, etc should be offered regardless of age. In my city which has excellent public transport, people do hop up and fold the seats the moment someone in a wheelchair gets on and for people with large strollers; the bus driver will also announce when someone who clearly needs a seat gets on that ‘I need those seats up front’ and not move until people move and offer the seat.

        1. Jessica*

          It’s been some time since I lived in Paris and I’m unaware of the 75 rule, but I’ve always noticed that people on Paris buses are generally quite proactive (I guess in comparison to my US baseline) about offering seats to others who seem like they might need it.

      3. fposte*

        In my commuting days when I was visibly a young thing, I’d offer to anybody pregnant or with a baby, or anybody I noticed had difficulty mounting the stairs, or anybody who looked like a senior citizen. I would give it up for anybody who asked (absent, like a group of teenagers who seemed to be taking the piss). When in doubt, you get up and say “I’m getting off soon–would you like my seat?”

      4. TootsNYC*

        The threshold for whether you “ought to have” automatically offered your seat without being asked is:
        any visual indicator, such as assistive device (cane, etc.), limp, pregnancy, unsteadiness, extreme shortness (so can’t reach the overhead straps easily; this covers kids as well).

        And then probably age, based on hair color or wrinkles.

        People w/ lots of packages, perhaps.

        Apparent exhaustion ought to trigger a kind person to offer their seat, but I don’t think there’s some external rule like those for people w/ canes.

        1. halfmanhalfshark*

          I agree about apparently exhaustion but that one is tricky because you don’t want to basically imply to a stranger that you think they look tired or old or pregnant (if they are just fat). But also, I mean, I feel like erring on the side of kindness is always better even if the person you offer the seat to gets grouchy about not needing it.

      5. halfmanhalfshark*

        I’ve taken public transit as my primary mode of transportation for almost 15 years and in that time been offered seats because I’m fat in a way that can sometimes be mistaken for pregnant (and I accepted, because if I’m going to feel bad about myself, I’m going to do it comfortably while seated), offered seats because I’ve been carrying lots of stuff, not offered seats when I was actually very visibly pregnant, not offered seats when I was trying to carry an actual baby on a very crowded bus, and not offered seats when I was navigating public transit with a orthopedic surgical boot and crutches.

        My personal rule is that anybody who looks like they could use a seat, due to age or infirmity or pregnancy or trying to carry a window unit AC on the train or because they have a kid(s), I will offer them my seat. And if someone asks? 100% absolutely they can have it because nobody asks unless they really need it. Also I am not shy and my voice carries if I want it to, so I have on a few occasions (with permission from the person who wanted to sit) asked people to move on behalf of strangers. Very little makes me angrier than when people suddenly become extremely engrossed in their book or phone when someone who needs a seat gets on a crowded bus or train.

    3. Jessie the First (or second)*

      I agree – but I am more than a little disheartened by a number of responses in the thread just above defending the LW for ignoring the request. Like, people actually saying it’s totally fine and normal to *not even respond* to a request for a seat, and that somehow this is some kind of gray area. I’m gobsmacked. Ignoring a request for a seat for an elderly or disabled passenger is horribly rude and NOT OKAY.

  11. Antilles*

    This isn’t all that different from losing a job because you were rude to the receptionist.
    My last company always, always asked the receptionist how you were in the 5 minutes or so you were sitting our lobby. Because if you can’t be polite to a lower-level employee for a short period of time when you’re supposed to be on your *best* behavior, you’re probably going to be bad to deal with normally, and absolutely miserable on bad days when there’s an upcoming deadline.

    1. chocolate lover*

      Many years ago when I was still in college, they invited students to be on the search committee for a program adviser. One of the candidates got belligerent with the admin/receptionist because of some parking confusion, and told me about it after. The two of us agreed not to tell anyone else until after the interview, and see what people thought of the candidate. You should have seen the candidate’s face when she realized the admin was also on the panel interviewing her! Turns out we really didn’t need to say anything anyway (though we did when everything was over), because the woman was so generally unpleasant, no one liked her. And the candidate basically admitted in the interview that she had been demoted to a back-end position that didn’t involve working with people, which made us wonder what the original interviewers were smoking when they invited her back to the second interview, given that the job involved working with students all the time.

      1. Lora*

        For me it’s also how well they tip at business lunches/dinners. My worst bosses have invariably been lousy tippers. If you tip badly or fuss about crap the server cannot possibly control (is your food edible? yes? then shush and eat it, don’t whine about how you just remembered you don’t like whatever the menu clearly said the dish contained), I will remember you forever as That A-hole. You will never be invited out to the happy hours and poker games and networking events with the rest of us, because we can’t trust you to be nice to the staff and we want to be welcomed back with open arms at some point in the future. Stingy tippers are embarrassing.

        Whenever anyone is new to the area or asks me for career advice, that is the #1 thing I tell them: it’s a small world, everyone knows everyone else, so be nice to everyone because you likely will have to work with them again. On my morning commute, I take the same train as two of our QA folks, the head of manufacturing and a couple of scientists in other departments. And none of us dress like executives or anyone you’d think was a manager, we’re on the Casual end of Business Casual.

    2. AfterBurner313*

      No joke. Receptionists, janitors, anyone in a “minion” job. My boss would ask how (X) person behaved before rolling into the interview.

      Most people don’t demand seats. Even if the person “looks” okay, he may have being going for medical treatments, blood sugar acting up, it could be other things that aren’t truly visible. I’d rather give up a seat, then have the person hitting the floor in front of me.

      My friend on the spectrum has blown many a job interview by coming across as a jerk to underlings. You gotta be Bill Gates brilliant for people to over look supposed character flaws.

      1. Lefty*

        Isn’t this one of those business school urban legends that everyone has heard? You only pass the exam if you know the custodian’s name because he always says hello to you in the halls and you’ve been here for 4 years?! (Maybe this is just something I heard?)

        1. Natalie*

          Something as specific as putting the janitor’s name on an exam is probably an urban legend, but it’s completely true and common that being rude to other staff people you encounter at an interview will get you cut from consideration. During my reception stint my bosses always asked me how the job candidate’s behaved while they were waiting.

          1. Turtle Candle*

            And it isn’t purely in a negative way, either. Our maintenance guy at our workplace had been with the company for decades and upper management liked him a lot. Not being friendly with him wouldn’t cause you to be penalized (unless you were outright rude or unpleasant, which was Not Tolerated), but you definitely got Good Person Bonus Points for being pleasant and friendly with him. So it’s not necessarily just fear of being penalized–sometimes being pleasant and friendly can actively help you.

        2. Antilles*

          That specific example, yes, probably an urban legend. But as I posted above, I can personally verify that the general concept of “we pay attention to how you treated our lower-tier staff” absolutely happens.
          Nobody will be expecting you to be a charming smooth-talker and spend hours chatting with the receptionist or the security guard or the janitor. But you shouldn’t be a jerk or treat them like inferiors or etc. Just be polite, reasonable, and professional.

      2. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        Not work related but…years ago my sister had a boyfriend that I hadn’t met and who my mother loved. Mom was having a yardsale and we all showed up early to help her set up. The boyfriend didn’t show up on time and my sister was upset. I was in the driveway when he pulled up and to a passerby I probably looked like a shopper. My sister stepped onto the porch and they started fighting, he called her all manner of nasty names, and I cleared my throat. My sister froze and introduced me. I hated him immediately. He was so fake to my mom all day and after he’d left I told her what happened. She never looked at him the same way again and it wasn’t too long before he stopped coming around.

        Treat people how you want to be treated. It’s simple. It’s a shame that the OP had to learn this lesson in such a hard way, but it’s never too late to do better.

    3. CityMouse*

      We once tossed an intern’s application out because he was rude to our receptionist. He probably wasn’t going to get it anyway but our awesome competent receptionist is worth way more than the most qualified potential applicant, especially a rude one. No way in heck am I doing that to her.

    4. SarahKay*

      I was once in the satisfying position of being able to respond to the rudely-asked question from a job applicant of “Who are you to tell me what the hours of the job are?!?” with the answer “I’m the manager of the department you’d be working in. Shall I assume you don’t want to apply for the job?”

      It was back in my retail days when I managed the Customer Service department, which was also responsible for answering calls through the switchboard. I happened to be covering the switchboard and took the call from the potential applicant who apparently wasn’t thrilled with the stated hours. I guess she assumed that as I was a ‘lowly’ receptionist she didn’t need to be polite to me.

    5. Allison*

      I actually worried about this when I interviewed for the job I have now. Came into the lobby and went straight for the elevator, not knowing I’d need to check in with security, so the security guy said “can I help you?” and I went to show him my ID, but there was a language barrier so I told him who I was there to meet, he misinterpreted what I said and thought I meant a different name that sounded kind of similar, and told me there was no one at the company by that name, so I showed him the e-mail and he said “oh him!” and signed me in. But we both got a little frustrated by the exchange, so when he let me in the elevator he said “good luuuck . . .” which kind of sounded like “you suck and there’s no way they’d hire a jerk like you,” so I actually recounted the incident to the hiring manager. Thankfully, they didn’t think it was a big deal.

    6. Martina Marprelate*

      When I applied for my first office job, I didn’t find out until later that the “receptionist” was the owner’s wife filling in for a sick assistant. Fortunately I was polite because she definitely had veto power over any hiring.

    7. Throwaway*

      I was once assisting on an open call for interviews, and one man kept questioning me angrily every time I went from the interview room to the front desk about why they were “wasting his time”(because he had arrived late, so they took someone else before him). You better believe I told the interviewers in the room all about him before he walked in the door for his interview!

  12. MommyMD*

    Accept it and move on. You appeared extremely rude and callous and it was held against you. It’s not illegal. And I hope you apologized profusely about her coat on the train and gave her money to cover the dry cleaning. Just view it as a life lesson. Good luck in your search. Healthy adults should give up their seat to the elderly, infirm and obviously pregnant.

  13. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Wow.

    I recently went to Disney World with my mom. Every night, we stayed until the last bus left. And they were always packed. Every time people older/ill/traveling with a small child/etc needed a seat, someone got up. If a bunch of tired, sweaty, cranky people can give up a seat (especially after paying a boatload of money to be there) so can you. The tone of the request makes no difference. If it’s rude you should still take the high road. Rudeness should not beget rudeness.

  14. Snark (formerly Liet)*

    Sounds like you just got a little reminder from the universe that you do not lie at its center, prestigious internships and prodigious intelligence notwithstanding! I don’t want to come down too hard on you, per site rules, but it is astonishing that you think this is an occasion to complain to HR about the unfairness of it all and demand your candidacy be considered independent of your character. I’d suggest you take this as an opportunity to sit in a quiet place, perhaps with a relaxing beverage, and ponder how long you’ve been moving through the world ruthlessly prioritizing your own needs and conveniences, and how to curtail that tendency.

      1. PiggyStardust*

        I live in a major city in the Northeast, and generally people traveling with their bikes during rush hour stand with their bikes to minimize space used. If you had a bike AND were taking up a seat, that’s generally pretty crappy and seems rather entitled.

        1. Beth*

          That’s what I was thinking as well. I tried to say it above but you were much more concise!

        2. Liane*

          I have never seen this kind of arrangement. Wish I’d seen this before. In my defense, I have never lived anywhere that has a public transportation system that is better than “adequate for some situations.”

        3. Katelyn*

          I also live in a major city in the northeast, and my transit system specifically bans bikes at peak hours (7am-10am and 4pm-7pm) because they block doors or aisles or are impossible to get in and out without someone holding a door at some point in the process… which can delay the whole system, and even what people think are tiny delays really add up over a large system!

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I don’t think bikes are allowed on the tube in London at peak time either, but I can’t imagine it. There is NO room. Seriously, if you passed out you would never fall down because all the people squashed against you would hold you up. If I have baggage, I wait until peak time has passed because that is also impossible. I learned pretty fast how to shuck a backpack and stand over it while coming back from Scotland.
            My only other experience with trains was in DC, but it was at night so not crowded. Though I imagine the rules are similar.

            1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

              I had the interesting expression of being pressed so tight against a dignified elderly gentleman that I could count his appendectomy stitches, while we both stared placidly into the middle distance and pretended the other didn’t exist.

          2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Yes, but this was a Sunday night.

            There’s a little “having a bike on a train is rude” thread running through some comments (Using a seat AND having a bike? Thoughtless!) that just doesn’t seem reasonable to me. I don’t disagree that this LW was rude, but just having a bike and sitting in an available seat isn’t rude in and of itself.

            1. Natalie*

              There is a difference between saying something is an imposition (which seems to be the general feeling on bikes on trains) and saying it’s rude. An imposition can or cannot be rude depending on how the person handles it – are they being careful of where there bike is, keeping it out of people’s way, not letting it roll into people? Then they may be imposing a bit, but politely. YMMV.

        4. Alli525*

          I also live in a major NE city, and I’m not sure that I’ve EVER seen a bike on our of our buses. Subway, sure, but not buses. Although this post has revived my longing for bike racks on the front of our buses–I lived in a smallish college town for several years and their bus=mounted bike racks were great.

        5. Sylvia*

          I live in the Southeast and the local public transportation has bike racks. Having a bike inside with you seems odd, but I’m going to assume that’s the best option where OP lives.

          1. Natalie*

            I’m making some assumptions based on location, but the difference is likely bus vs train. For various logistical reasons, the bus generally has a rack in front while trains have racks inside the car or just a foyer space where someone could hold a bike.

          2. Cercis*

            I’ve seen several different configurations. The older, traditional buses had racks on the front that held 2 bikes. Once those were full, you had to wait for the next bus. The transit system got newer, articulated buses and they had the racks on the front and also had hanging racks in the articulated section. That particular arrangement allowed for the bikes to hang between the seats, so you were sitting next to your bike (but very crowded), I can’t find a picture of that.

            In Austin, the trains have seats that fold up and your bike hangs there. As far as I can tell, you can’t have the seats down with a bike hanging. Once those are full, people stand with their bikes. I’ve been on the train during SXSW Eco and you literally were so crowded together you could barely breathe, but there were still folks with their bikes.

            I prefer the system that allows you to sit (crowded) with your bike because it seems to me that you’ll want to be next to your bike if at all possible and you’re not taking up the space of 3 seats for one bike, nor are you having to stand up holding your bike and blocking the aisle. But it appears that that’s rare (since I couldn’t find a pic on google).

  15. Roker Moose*

    I also make frequent use of an overcrowded metro system– getting a seat can be like gold dust. But like Alison says, you’ve got to be prepared to stand if an elderly or pregnant or ill person is in need.

    I’m guessing you were raised without public transport and moved to a larger city after graduation? If so, your ignorance is understandable. But it’s definitely a lesson to learn– if you’re healthy and able to stand, you probably will have to do so.

  16. Wonderful World*

    I agree that not giving up the seat was uncool, but that affecting a hiring decision seems off to me. There was an example recently about non-work behavior (the jerky Tinder user) and people seemed to agree with Alison that it wasn’t appropriate or necessary for that to be reported to an employer. Why is something that happened on a train in a public place with the somewhat subjective details relayed to the CEO through a third party relevant to the permanent hiring of that person in a company? The fact that someone’s wife can chime in and torpedo a hiring decision just seems like some kind of reverse nepotism. Sorry, I don’t get it.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      As Alison said, it says something about their character and motives. Sort of like how I won’t date a woman who’s rude to the waiter, or how many places ask the receptionist for their impressions of a new hire. Your conduct when you think nobody important is watching says a lot about you. Someone who’s self-centered and rude is going to act that way at work too.

    2. Dee-Nice*

      I think in the other letter the person considering doing the whistle-blowing was not affiliated with the Tinder-user’s place of business at all, and just happened to see where the person worked. In this case, the CEO may have received information about the applicant from a highly trusted source, and it would be strange to not take that into account.

      1. Liane*

        Yes, this. Mrs. CEO–unlike that fellow passenger–didn’t see a company name on OP’s shirt, papers, or phone screen then immediately call/post/text the company or her husband. If he or anybody else at the company heard, it was something like, “What a day! A was fun, B & C went wrong, and That Awful Bus Passenger!”
        Only after she sees him *in the office* does she ask someone who the OP is, then when she hears they’re a candidate, she tells the story.
        And even if Bus Incident is the reason OP lost out on the job, it doesn’t follow that Mrs. CEO demanded OP not be hired.

        1. CityMouse*

          OP is also going to be extra memorable because of the cost. If OP got bike grease on her, that may have completely ruined her coat: bike grease is a huge pain to get off of hands, let alone fabric.

      3. Emi.*

        Yeah, whereas if I were rude to you on Tinder and then it turned out you were on the hiring panel, it would be totally fair to take that into account.

    3. fposte*

      There’s a difference between “not worth reporting a stranger’s behavior to the workplace” and “the workplace has to pretend it doesn’t know”; there’s also a difference between a candidate and an employee.

      1. Claudia M.*

        I think this is dead on, especially in government work.

        If I have to lie and pretend I don’t know, we have a problem, because now I’m complicit in supporting your behavior. If I don’t know, I’m not.

        If my customers over-share, they often back themselves into a corner where I can’t help them because I know the truth, and that blame would fall on me for processing the work while knowing. If I don’t know, the blame falls on them for attempting to fraud the government.

      2. Just Another Techie*

        And also a difference between “random stranger unknown to anyone in the company” and “boss’s trusted family member.” Like if the person who wanted to report the gross Tinder user was the daughter of the CEO of gross-tinder-dude’s company, I think the advice would have been different?

      3. DaisyGrrl*

        > there’s also a difference between a candidate and an employee

        This is a key part of it. The employer is still in the process of deciding whether to extend an offer of employment at this point. Information became available that changed the employer’s evaluation of the candidate.

        If this had happened after LW was hired, I would probably think firing her was a step too far. Watching for signs that the behavior was part of a larger pattern, sure, but not necessarily a firing offence. That said, the LW doesn’t work there yet and the company is well within its rights to decide whether this is a person they want to hire, given the information available.

      4. Mookie*

        Exactly. This is a firsthand account from the CEO’s spouse, not a piece of viral news, gossip, or innuendo stripped of context and reported maliciously. When you’re in public, you’re fair game to be judged in public; act like a jerk and accept that some people will shun your company as a result. There’s no expectation of privacy in this case and under these circumstances, nor is this about protecting a person’s right to live out their personal lives according to their own beliefs.

    4. Jen RO*

      I agree with you. The OP was a bit rude, but honestly I would do the same if I needed the chair for something. I pay the same amount for the bus ticket as anyone else and I don’t see why I should just get up when someone (rudely!) asks for it.

      And getting rejected from a job for that? Absolutely ridiculous.

        1. PiggyStardust*

          My SO is Romanian — raised in Dragasani, went to university in Bucharest, and then immigrated here to work in the U.S. I ran this by him and he said the customs aren’t that different, and giving up your seat for an elderly or disabled person is the same.

        2. RAM*

          As someone who grew up in Romania, we were definitely taught that if a bus or train is full and you are physically capable, you stand up and give up your seat for elderly or otherwise disabled passengers, no ifs, ands or buts about it. It’s a person’s character that will determine what they will actually do, of course…

        3. Jen RO*

          Not different, this is actually *because* I was rudely stood up so many times during my childhood…

        4. CanCan*

          I don’t know about Romania, but when I was growing up in Russia (2-3 decades ago), you (ie. an able-bodied young person) were expected to leap to your feet when an elderly person (inculding a woman age 50+ or maybe even younger – or any woman at all, if you’re a man) entered the bus. If you didn’t, and they had to ask, YOU were being rude. Didn’t matter if you were reading – you should have been paying attention. Didn’t matter your location in the bus.

          Because of this, I preferred finding a quiet corner to stand. At least then you wouldn’t have to judge who is elderly enough – and risk either not offering your seat to somebody who considers themselves elderly/needy, or offending somebody when you do offer your seat, and they’re actually 40 rather than 50.

      2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        No personal offense intended, but if you’re in Romania….well, let’s say I didn’t find your fair country the politest place on earth.

        2. Corisande*

          Oof. Not Romanian, but having traveled there, I’d say this is unfair. I found people to be perfectly pleasant, they are just used to more formality than the average North American is. In Romania, demanding favours from someone without so much as a ‘good afternoon’ first – I wouldn’t be surprised if locals didn’t wish to accommodate.

        3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          To answer, I was in Bucharest, and found people to be pretty rude in public. Not in the context of requests, just in daily life.

        5. Jen RO*

          I’m in Bucharest, and I can’t say I disagree. People in smaller cities are nicer – sometimes shockingly nice! Bucharest is a bit of its own world, but I do like it this way – I am not interested in making chit-chat with people I don’t know.

          Then again, I’ve never been in the US, but most Europeans seem to think that Americans are TOO friendly… so – compared to our culture – people in Bucharest probably aren’t AS rude as they seemed to you.

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Are public transit norms that different over there? At least in the US, there’s a very clear priority that those for whom standing is difficult, painful, or dangerous get the seats first, period. It isn’t a matter of “you pay the same as everyone else” — that’s not relevant. It’s who can endure standing, including the stop-and-start motion, and who can’t.

        1. EleonoraUK*

          Besides, if anything, people with mobility issues through age or illness are going to be at a disadvantage to get to an available seat ahead of someone else to begin with.

        2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          You’re paying for transportation. Unless seats are assigned, you’re not paying to sit down, on a bus, train, or any similar such mode.

        3. sam*

          I don’t know about Romania, but I lived in Italy for a while, and there, the buses actually only had a few seats, and they were ALL expected to be ceded to the elderly/disabled/pregnant as necessary. The rest of the space was standing room in order to pack in more passengers.

          That made for some “fun” rides, especially given that Italians do not have nearly the requirement for personal space that americans do. I sometimes look at a “crowded” NYC subway car and think that we could easily pack 2-3x as many people in if we followed the “Italian” way of doing things. And then I’m somewhat glad that we don’t.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            That was my experience living in Spain, too. Many fewer seats than buses in the US (but oh! so much cleaner, nicer, and on time) and labeled or no, they were ALL seats you should give up if needed.

            I did get to witness a group of boys grabbing seats right by the exit door, and then getting thoroughly chewed out by a woman who saw them. Learned a few new naughty words that day!

          2. Elizabeth West*

            It’s like this in London at peak time. I deliberately rode the tube then to see if I could stand it (all the way across town, too) on the off-chance I was lucky enough to move. Yes, I could, but I could definitely see how it would be an adjustment if you weren’t used to it.

          3. Alli525*

            How on EARTH have you seen a crowded NYC subway car and thought it would be possible to cram more people in? I mean, I guess if you remove the seats… but I used to ride a line where, between 5-6:30pm, the majority of the cars would be so crowded that holding onto something was literally unnecessary due to the sardine-like standing arrangement.

            I am very glad I don’t ride that line during rush hour anymore.

              1. Emmylou*

                I’ve totally been in those 14 seater busses and crammed 25 people in in Uganda. Laps are for sitting ;-)

            2. sam*

              Trust me. People in America have NO IDEA how much closer they could cram against each other if (literal) push came to shove.

              Not that I’m advocating it, mind you. I dearly appreciate the invisible bubble that we each apparently have around us in this country, but you haven’t seen close until your face is inches-deep in someone else’s armpit.

              Also, New Yorkers are constitutionally incapable of moving to the center of any subway car, or to the back of the bus. Have you ever stood outside a subway car and watched someone try to cram into a “packed” subway door only to notice that the center of the car is practically empty?

            4. KV*

              You’ve never been on a Tokyo train when it gets really desperate… The kind of crowd where people look at the super packed train car, turn around, and push their way in backwards so they don’t have to look anybody in the eye as they crush them. So crowded you can lift your feet off the ground and not go anywhere.

      4. fposte*

        On most public transit in big U.S. cities, more than half of the car will be people standing during busy times. It’s an accepted norm. (Interestingly, even the long-distance train may not always have seats for you, which was a surprise to me.) You’re not buying a seat, you’re buying the travel.

        1. Jen RO*

          “More than half” sounds like a dream compared to Bucharest standards! My experience is 100 people smelling each other’s armpits, crammed into a bus that’s supposed to hold 80. This is what it looks like at rush hour: http://tramclub.org/files/4_704.jpg (and this is the most modern tram line we have).

          Either way, the expectation here is you get up if you see a visibly pregnant or elderly person, and I usually do. I just dislike being *rudely* ask to give up my seat and I think it’s a huge exaggeration to reject someone from a job because of it.

          1. fposte*

            Okay, there goes my theory that it was different for you because your transit isn’t as crowded :-).

    5. js*

      there is a big difference in those two scenarios- the standing and connection the person has to the company. i don’t think it has to be the CEOs wife necessarily. could have been wife, could have been sibling, could have been the FIL himself, could have been another employee and their own father. could have been the CEOs best friend. all of thosepeople have a connection to the company, which is entirely different than contacting a company you don’t have a connection to. If someone in my circle had a bad interaction with someone I was inteviewing i’d want to know and I’d take it into consideration. Maybe a candidate can overcome that kind of thing if they’re particularly experienced or have a special skill set, but someone at entry-level isn’t likely to be that specialized, no matter how great they think they are.

    6. a Gen X manager*

      Wonderful World, Would you want to work with OP based on the qualities shown when OP thought no one important was watching?

    7. Kalamet*

      I agree with this sentiment, but admittedly I’m cynical and biased re. how people behave in public (husband works retail and people are horribly, unbelievably rude to him on a daily basis). Maybe my problem is that I can’t believe there wasn’t something personal in CEO’s wife’s actions. I don’t think it’s appropriate for someone in a position of authority to jerk around another person’s job prospects over a disagreement on transit. OP was rude, but is the punishment really proportional to the crime, here?

      I guess I’m landing on OP’s side because I don’t think people are being fair to her today. Normally when a young OP makes a social gaffe we give the benefit of the doubt, but it seems like we’re coming down harder than usual. Yeah, it was rude, and wanting to go to HR is naive, but calling her entitled, selfish and rude isn’t really helpful.

      1. EleonoraUK*

        I think the response is as punchy as it is because the OP doesn’t indicate a sense of remorse or understanding she got this one rather wrong at the time. The letter writer’s focus is on how she’s been wronged by fate and the CEO somehow, with no mention of her own failures.

        1. Kalamet*

          Yes, that makes sense, but that’s another thing that goes back to immaturity for me. And we’re usually kinder to immature writers than this. I mean, from the perspective of someone new to the working world, it seems unfair. We understand that life isn’t fair and actions outside of work can have consequences, but OP (clearly) is learning that lesson for the first time.

          I had an interview that went extremely unpleasantly in college, and I reacted badly. In the interview itself, not just in public somewhere else. I sure as hell felt wronged (and still do), but time gave me the understanding I needed to get past it. It’s fine to let OP know she was wrong, but I don’t like that we’re making assumptions about OP’s character based on how she behaved in this one incident.

          1. fposte*

            I don’t disagree; I think it’s the pile-on problem, and it gets exacerbated when you have some outliers with the contrary view. So it’s pretty hard to preclude, but I think it does tend to interfere with the message.

            So just in case: sorry, OP, this was fair–it was just a skill you didn’t realize you were expected to possess. Now you know.

          2. EleanoraUK*

            Not a bad shout; thanks for adding a bit of balance.

            I’ve been thinking about why this particular letter rubbed me the wrong way more than others. I agree with you that there’s a bit of immaturity and lack of experience at play, and the comments would normally be more lenient.

            Where I disagree a little is that in my view, treating others respectfully regardless of their perceived status isn’t something you only learn once you enter the working world, and the OP’s failure to grasp that mistake both in the moment and and on reflection/when writing the letter just makes them look really rather unfavourable in ways that have little to do with age or experience.

            2. Observer*

              Yes, this is what I was thinking. And the reality is that this kind of behavior can come back to bite you in your personal life, too.

            3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Yes, this sums up how I feel, as well. First, there’s the fact that this specific kind of etiquette has nothing to do with work experience. But what I find more irksome is that OP does not seem to acknowledge or realize that what they did was (in most parts of the U.S. and apparently in many other countries) inappropriate, and instead, has focused on trying to rationalize what happened by blaming the CEO’s wife. To be honest, we don’t even know if the CEO’s wife mentioned the story to him or said anything about OP—that’s just OP’s assumption in light of how they perceived prior conversations with HR.

              Usually when we get immature letter writers, their questions and concerns are directly related to issues that come from a lack of work experience or knowledge in the field. But OP’s situation is not that at all.

          3. Mananana*

            It’s also quite possible that the train incident had zero to do with the outcome. Perhaps the OP just didn’t do as well as she thought.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I don’t think it has to be personal though. It could just be “hey, remember that unpleasant incident on the train that I told you about the other day? You’re never going to believe this — I just ran into the guy in your elevator, apparently going to an interview with you.”

        1. Kalamet*

          That makes sense. I still think it’s inappropriate use of a power dynamic based on an isolated incident. But all of this is just my opinion, and I can agree to disagree.

          2. Mookie*

            By ‘power,’ do you mean the power to hire someone? Are you recommending that CEOs (or hiring managers, for that matter) hire blindly, or you comfortable with them using their judgment and applying common sense when gauging the suitability of a candidate? If the former, yes, you’ll probably disagree with most people because that is not how hiring works. There are only “isolated incidents” by which to judge most applicants, and these include interacting with them and seeking out the opinions of people who’ve worked with them; why a first-hand account of a social interaction from someone you trust ought to be dismissed out of hand is unclear and, yes, an unconventional opinion.

        2. Dankar*

          That’s actually what I pictured happening, though I know it’s purely conjecture.

      3. Myrin*

        I’d guess that the “entitled, selfish, and rude” estimation of OP’s character stems from the overall tone and wording of her letter, not from the train situation itself.

      4. Dee-Nice*

        Looking at your comment and the exchange in the replies to you below, I kind of see your point, even though I agree with others who’ve said the LW comes off as unapologetic and un-self-aware.

        I’ve worked in front-facing service positions most of my life (think retail, receptionist, etc) and I agree that people are frequently unbelievably rude. So if I’m 100% honest, there’s part of me that wishes every rude person got some kind of karmic comeuppance. I think that sentiment is likely to be influencing a lot of commenters today.

      5. Dankar*

        Young OPs making professional gaffes generally get a pass because they’re learning. The OP is not learning, at this point in his/her life, how not to be rude.

        Even those interns who petitioned to change the dress code were making a significant error in professional behavior (and boy was that letter-writer taken to task in the comments). This is about basic standards of behavior in public, and that’s a world of difference. As a twenty-something myself, I’m a bit miffed that there are commenters thinking I wouldn’t know better than to behave this way–I absolutely jump up to offer my seat if there’s an elderly person on the train/bus/tram. I’m constantly aggravated that more people don’t do the same (you can’t ALL need the seats!).

        A question to consider for the OP: Did you feel badly about your behavior (including staining the coat) before it negatively impacted you? We all have bad days, but it’s important to reflect on whether we could be kinder, more empathetic people even when there’s nothing on the line for us.

      6. Falling Diphthong*

        In addition to the stated reason for the OP not getting the offer (skills to be developed–it might really be that simple) that “formality” interview could have gone south because the interviewee said any number of poor things. Told jokes about 9/11, for a recent example. Expressed the wrong sports team preference. Said something that indicated to the interviewer that This Is The One Who Broke My Baby’s Heart Last Fall. Just felt off to the CEO’s gut. There is no steel-bound set of hard and soft skills that the CEOs can consider, and going outside of that is just not allowed.

      7. Lyricthrope*

        I think that their actions in this specific case were rude, entitled, and selfish, but that doesn’t mean necessarily that their general character is. However, the tone came across like they were mad that their behaviour may have kept them from getting the job. They even had a second chance to apologize and offer to make amends for the coat needing to be cleaned or possibly replaced, before they discovered she was the CEO’s wife. I agree the OP is being piled on here, and I hope they are able to use this experience and the comments to reassess how they would handle a similar situation in the future. I doubt anyone thinks they’re a complete lost cause who should never get a job, a date, or a seat on public transit for the rest of their life! ;)

        Also, they specifically said they felt they weren’t obligated to give up their seat to *ANYONE* because it wasn’t labelled as priority seating for the disabled/elderly/etc. So, a lot of people have tried to clarify that the expectation is that anyone who can will give up their seat for people who truly need it, and at least say no politely if they can’t. It’s generally considered fine to ignore people, using earphones or a book, but the OP said flat out that they heard the request for the seat and chose to ignore it.

    8. CityMouse*

      I think it is totally fair. You are not just hiring someone in qualifications, you are hiring in fit and personality. I am not hiring someone who is rude to strangers. Say I was behind someone in line at Starbucks and they were rude to the barista and then came in for an interview with me. No way I would hire them. Reporting a third party is different from taking personality into account when hiring.

    9. Not my name*

      I agree with you in part. If someone is rude on a train, I wouldn’t go out of my way to track them down and report it to their employer. In this case, I picture wife going home and telling the story of her day, including this encounter. Then the next day she says to husband “That’s the person from the train!” It really doesn’t fall under any standard work etiquette (why was she there at work?) but it is what it is. There’s nothing to do about it now, no matter how fair or not fair. In general, we would all do better to be kind and generous in our personal lives. If OP had even said “Sorry, I need this seat” it might have turned out differently.

    10. Chriama*

      The CEO’s wife saw her in the building. If creepy tinder guy turned out to be interviewing for a job in your office, I’m sure Alison would say it’s worth bringing up. It’s the difference between sharing information with someone who trusts you as a reliable source of information (and/or whose interests it is assumed you have in mind) vs. being the crazy random person looking to stir up trouble around complete strangers.

      1. Turtle Candle*

        That’s sort of where I fall on this. If someone sent me a gross message on social media, it wouldn’t occur to me to notify their workplace; I’d just sigh and block. If I saw that same person interviewing with my boss, though? You betcha I’d say, “OMG, you’re not going to believe this, but…” I think it’s because sending a message to a workplace with which I am not involved feels like making an extra effort to upset the person’s employment, and so it’s best for everyone to just let it lie. But if they’re interviewing at my company, it’d be an extra effort to not say something, and I don’t feel like I owe them that extra effort.

    11. Roscoe*

      I think the fact that it is the wife of the CEO that makes it different. Put it this way, while I definitely said they shouldn’t report the tinder user, if the person writing in was the daughter of the CEO, and she reported that information, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. The fact that the act was done to someone connected to the company is very different than tracking down the company out of the blue and reporting it.

      1. Lyricthrope*

        I have tracked down the company and reported it when someone was rude, once. My uncle was driving me to their home for the holidays, and someone driving alone in a car with driving school signage cut us off. I don’t recall whether the number was right there or if I googled it, but I contacted them right away with the details of what had happened, license plate, etc.

  17. KHB*

    Agree that the OP behaved badly by ignoring the request for the seat, and that she should write off this job as lost.

    Disagree, though, that paying for the dry cleaning is the right thing to do. She didn’t stain the CEO’s wife’s coat on purpose, and getting your clothes dirty is one of the risks you take when you go out in public. And surely the CEO and his wife are in a much better financial position to absorb the cost of that risk than a young intern is.

    I suppose the OP could offer to pay the cleaning bill as a formality, on the assumption that the CEO will refuse the offer. If the CEO actually takes the OP’s money for this, then he’s behaving just as badly as the OP ever did.

    The OP should not even bring up the possibility of buying the wife a new coat. That’s beyond the realm of the reasonable.

    1. fposte*

      I would have offered to pay in the moment, actually; a bike on the train is enough of an imposition already that you really don’t want people to be out of pocket because you brought it aboard. At this point I don’t think it matters all that much.

      1. KHB*

        The OP said the coat-staining happened when she was getting off the train, so she probably didn’t have time to negotiate the cost of a cleaning bill in the moment.

        And the way I see it is that if the transit authority allows bikes on the trains, the OP wasn’t doing anything rude or imposing by bringing one.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I think you’re right about the timing issue, though I think there’s still time to apologize.

          But I disagree on the second one. I didn’t say it was rude to bring the bike; it can be okay to do it and still an imposition. The fact that something is permissible doesn’t negate the fact that it’s a PITA for other people. Therefore the polite thing to do is acknowledge you’re depending on forbearance.

          1. Beth*

            Per the rules of my local transit authority, bikes are allowed, but not during rush hour, and not when it’s assumed that trains will become crowded during major events (including, well, yesterday, in the US). Heck, strollers are allowed as well, but some people bring giant strollers (not the smaller, folding ones), block doors and seats with them, etc. They DO get in the way, and it’s important to be conscientious about it.

            Even when I wear a backpack on the train — which of course I have every right to do — I still consider it basic decency to be aware of the backpack and how much space it takes up, to not block another seat with it, etc.

          2. EleonoraUK*

            To my mind, it’s like bringing a dog. You can bring a dog to a place, and that’s perfectly fine, but you are responsible for ensuring that dog doesn’t bite anyone or relieve itself and so on.

            A bike’s much easier to control, and if you bring one with a greasy and exposed chain, it’s your responsibility to ensure it doesn’t stain anyone’s clothes. If you get that bit wrong, you offer to make it right. Most people won’t take you up on it, but it’s the decent thing to do.

            I’d feel differently if the bike had been stationery and the CEO’s wife had brushed past it herself, but it sounds like the OP moved the bike past the CEO and effectively wiped the chain on her coat. That’s the OP’s responsibility to fix.

            1. One of the Sarahs*

              Yeah, if you have a bike without a chainguard, you absolutely need to learn to control it before taking it onto a train! I am very pro train-and-bike-commuting, and have done it myself, but bike riders need to be very conscientious about the fact that even if it’s not actively banned, they can cause problems for other people, and damage their stuff.

              1. Lyricthrope*

                Plus, it looks like the low end chainguards only cost around a buck, so not onerous even for a student or intern.

        2. Regina Doublemint*

          I agree – bikes are allowed on public transportation for reasons that benefit us all. I think there is a lot the OP could have done more considerately here, but not bringing a bike isn’t one of them.

          1. LawBee*

            No one in this thread has said she couldn’t bring her bike – just that having one on a packed train is an imposition on everyone else.

            IMO the bigger sin is flat-out ignoring the request to get up, however rude it was.

        3. Jessie the First (or second)*

          “the OP wasn’t doing anything rude or imposing by bringing one”

          No, it was not rude to bring her bike. But why would that mean she should be excused from responsibility for damage she causes? She caused damaged, and so the good and kind and responsible thing to do is to offer to pay for cleaning. I’m allowed to drive my car on the road but if I bump another car I still am responsible for the damage.

          LW had time to notice she stained and damaged the coat, so she had time to say sorry and offer money towards dry cleaning.

          1. KHB*

            “LW had time to notice she stained and damaged the coat, so she had time to say sorry and offer money towards dry cleaning.”

            That really doesn’t follow. The time between noticing the stain and having to get off the train was probably 10-15 seconds at most. That’s enough time to say sorry, sure. But you think it’s also enough time for the OP to get out her wallet, count out an amount reasonably approximating a dry-cleaning bill, hand it to the woman, explain what it’s for, put her wallet away, collect her things, and get off the train? While holding (at least) a bike and a bag full of reading material? And being careful to make sure the bike chain doesn’t snag anyone else? And probably wearing a coat herself, if it was coat-wearing weather?

            I’m having trouble imagining how this would work.

            1. Jessie the First (or second)*

              You have waaaaaaayyyy more steps there than I do, so sure, your process would not work, and I certainly would not hold it against the letter for not managing all that you list in the short time frame.

              But I have trouble seeing that a quick “Oh, I’m so sorry, let me pay for dry cleaning, my number is xxx-xxx-xxxx – let me know!” is too much to manage.

              Failing that, a simple and brief apology, nothing more. Followed by an offer to pay in the elevator.

            2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I think you’re adding a lot of process that isn’t common when someone screws up. If you cause damage and you’re on the go, apologize in the moment and leave someone your card (or a post-it or something with your name and number). If you have a bit of time as you off-board, you can make the offer right then and there. I don’t think anyone’s recommending that OP should have begun *serious negotiations* regarding the dry cleaning bill.

              But even if you don’t have time to offer to pay for the cleaning for the coat, as Jessie notes, you can at least apologize. That doesn’t seem to have happened, here.

            3. Jess*

              OP knew he damaged the coat, and he left the train. He didn’t inconvenience himself by staying on to the next stop and making sure he accounted for what he did. He got someone’s coat stuck in his bike, was aware enough of what was going on to know he stained it, and then he took off (after pretending she was invisible when she asked for a seat for her dad).

    2. Artemesia*

      Getting bike grease on my coat should not be a natural risk of riding on the metro or bus; it is an enormous imposition to haul a bike on the train and the person doing it has a responsibility to not cause further damage with it. Of course if you grease up someone’s coat, you offer to have it cleaned. and next time you stand with your bike and are more careful. Stuff happens, but that doesn’t mean when you are responsible for that stuff happening you don’t take responsibility for it. Even an abject apology might have helped the situation although refusing to let the old guy have a seat probably sealed the deal on the job.

      1. Kate 2*

        Exactly! Not to get all “sandwiches”, but what if she was poor? What if that was her only coat? There are people who have very nice clothes, from Goodwill or better days when they had more money, but who make very little money. You never know.

    3. Temperance*

      I disagree with this. Frankly, LW was the cause of the stain, so the right thing to do would have been to apologize and offer cash for dry cleaning.

      1. KHB*

        I’m not talking about “would have,” though – I’m talking about what the OP’s obligations are now, with the extra context that the woman with the stained coat is the CEO’s wife (and also that the OP is likely to be out of a job soon).

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I don’t think there’s an exception to manners that says, “If you think the other person is loaded, you don’t have to make a good faith offer to repair the damage you caused.” The fact that OP won’t have a job may lead the CEO’s wife to politely decline the offer, but OP should still make the offer if they can do it in an appropriate way.

    4. Kate 2*

      I’ve gotta say, staining, perhaps ruining someone else’s coat, and then saying it is one of the risks of being in public, sounds like a very entitled attitude.

      As a society, we generally expect that a person in public does everything they can to not make other’s lives worse.

      For example, rather than telling people to just walk around dog poop and “deal with it” if their shoes are ruined by walking in it, we have laws requiring dog owners to remove their dog’s poop from sidewalks and grass. If they don’t obey they are fined.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “She didn’t stain the CEO’s wife’s coat on purpose”

      There are many times in life where we pay for something even though we did not “do it on purpose”. Kid hits a baseball through the neighbor’s window. Parent pays. I lost control of my car on ice. I did not aim for that mail box. I paid. Just because it was not on purpose does not mean responsibility goes away.

      Some expression of regret from OP could have relieved the problem. I would have asked her if she was alright because I would have assumed I hit her with my bike. So my first concern would be her physical well being. If she said, “It’s just my coat”, then that would relieve some of my concern.

  18. Chatterby*

    The LW could probably ask the HR contact for any feedback for improvement, without mentioning the train issue or the CEO’s wife.
    It’s entirely possible there was something else, and feedback is always helpful.

    1. Kopper*

      This! I was just thinking that it could have actually been something else entirely in the final interview. The LW is assuming it was the train incident, and it might have been, but it also might not have been.

    2. Anon Accountant*

      I completely agree. The LW states that in their meeting they received some feedback about areas they can improve on. I wonder if they were not offered the job for some completely different reason.
      As unfortunate as it is, people are not always the best about giving direct, timely feedback. Lw, Unless you were told that your behavior on the train caused you to lose the job I’d recommend seeking feedback from HR about what you could have done differently to be offered a job. As much as I think LWs behavior on the train was unacceptable, I also think that you are owed clear feedback at the end of an internship that apparently was expected to lead to a job offer.

    3. Lyricthrope*

      The OP said, “My interview that day went very well. However, I was not offered the job! I was given some feedback about the skills that I have to develop but that was all. I am not sure HR knows about the above as nobody mentioned it.” So, it’s entirely possible that their not getting the job had nothing to do with the train/bike incidents, or that they lacked some expected skills in addition to their rudeness.

  19. spek*

    Wow I’m a disabled vet, and even I get up and give my seat to a pregnant woman or an elderly person. And nothing is more annoying than a young able-bodied person sitting in a seat and pretending to not notice me with a cane standing in front of her. And someone actually needed the seat bad enough to speak up and ask for it, and you ignored her? I know we are not supposed to pile on to letter writers, but from what you have written I am finding it hard to believe that you are not a Bad Person.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      I choose to charitably assume OP has the makings of a decent person once they do a little self-interrogation.

      1. Not my name*

        Very good. We can all improve if we make the effort. OP is not irredeemably evil.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Please don’t judge people who appear to be able bodied. They might also be disabled and need that seat.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        As someone with a chronic condition that doesn’t physically manifest to the average passerby, if I actually ask for a seat, it’s a Very Bad Day. Sitting down is probably the only thing keeping me for tossing my cookies or passing out, or any combination thereof.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Same here. I don’t take public transit anymore, but I have very bad vertigo and it was very difficult for me to stand on the bus.

      2. Lyricthrope*

        There’s nothing wrong with that, but they shouldn’t ignore the person making the request. Just saying, “Sorry, I really need to sit” is fine.

    3. chocolatechipcookie*

      I would have likely done the same as OP in my younger days, especially if I was tired from walking around all day. Rudeness unfortunately can distract from the real issue and cause people to react poorly. That doesn’t make me or OP a Bad Person, just someone who has some growing up to do and exhibited some bad judgment.

      1. fposte*

        I think this is a fair point that deserves a little more air. It’s a reasonable thing to judge the OP on, but it doesn’t mean she’s going to hell or will never get a job anywhere; it was a mistake, and the fact that she didn’t learn from it immediately doesn’t mean she won’t soon enough.

  20. 2 Cents*

    It’s not as if the OP said, “No, I’m sorry, I need this seat,” (not all disabilities are invisible, so it’s plausible that the able-looking person the wife asked was the worst person to ask), but the OP pretended not to hear her at all — didn’t acknowledge her presence in the slightest, which is just rude. Then to dirty/ruin clothing with bike grease and not say anything is just icing on this rudeness cake.

    OP, consider how you’d feel if the situation was reversed, you were traveling with an older companion (with a disability, poor balance, low stamina?) on a packed train and then later found your clothing ruined by an anonymous person … who turned out to be the interviewee at your company the next day. That would inform your view of that person, no?

    1. Beth*

      It’s quite possible that she asked the person with a bike purposefully, because chances are if someone can ride a bike, they are also physically able to stand up.

    2. BananaPants*

      Frankly, if someone has a bicycle on a train I’m going to assume they’re able-bodied enough to ride it and therefore would be a good choice to approach in giving up their seat.

      In our area, public transit (all buses) have bike racks – you can’t bring your bike inside the bus.

      1. AfterBurner313*

        I’m guessing it was a folder bike like a Brompton or something like a Strida. Both Bromptons and Strida fold sort of like a umbrella stroller so you can move it on one wheel. The Brompton can tuck under the seat and a Strida would be next to you long and skinny.

        I can’t believe a regular bike would be allowed to clog up the aisle way.

        The Strida uses a belt instead of a chain, so no grease there. The tires do street grime on them. My friend wipes down the tires before getting on the bus with his Strida. Under a minute to not get other people’s clothes accidently dirty. Does he have to do it? No, but being considerate costs nothing.

        20 something with an expensive folder acting like a d-bag, yeah…doesn’t scream hire me.

        1. Katelyn*

          I’ve seen plenty of regular bikes on my local subway line… probably more than the foldey-types. Mostly people are good at not trying to bring them on at peak hours, but not always!

      2. Not my name*

        Here, buses have racks outside. Trains do not. You have to bring your bike on the train.

      3. nonegiven*

        My mom hurt her foot and has trouble walking very far. She can ride her exercise bike with no problem so I assume she could ride a regular bike if needed, unless her vertigo was triggered by it.

        1. Laura*

          Yes, but the rider here is lugging the bike on and off the train! They are clearly fit.

  21. Sn*

    This reminds me of the job candidate who lost out on a job because she bullied someone else at that same workplace.

    You can’t “badmouth” someone if the account of your behavior actually happened so please stop seeing the CEO’s wife as the bad guy here. She’s not. This is about you and no one else.

    Let’s be totally honest here. You didn’t care about ignoring a fairly reasonable, common request and staining someone’s clothing until you lost something that mattered to you. If this woman wasn’t the CEO’s wife, would you even have given your behavior a second thought? I’m guessing not.

    Putting it another way: when your behavior was inconvenient to someone else, it wasn’t a problem. But when your behavior inconvenienced yourself, then you wanted to make amends. That’s the character issue AAM is referencing.

    Also, I’m not sure you’re thinking about this either, but nowhere in your letter do I see an apology or some form of remorse. Something you need to reflect on. This incident isn’t about a seat on public transportation and a dry cleaning bill.

    2. LKW*

      This is exactly what I was thinking. Would the LW’s behavior changed if they knew that the person asking for the seat was the CEO’s wife? My guess is yeah probably.

      Showing consideration for others shouldn’t be based on who they are and what they can do for you – see comments regarding janitors, receptionists, etc. Consideration is part of the overall social contract: If possible, give up your seat when asked, don’t assume someone is or is not healthy. Be courteous.

      AKA – follow the Wil Wheaton rule: Don’t be a dick.

  22. Katie the Fed*

    I work with some people who are extremely talented at the technical aspects of their jobs, but just awful to work with in general because they treat other people terribly.

    Being good at your job usually isn’t enough – you have to also be someone who can work well with others.

    I think you should offer to pay for her coat cleaning just because it’s the right thing to do, but count this job as gone. I’d also take the opportunity to do a little soul searching on how you treat others.

  23. Thinking Outside the Boss*

    Giving up a seat is a cultural issue, and I think for most AAM readers (US/Canada/UK), not giving up your seat to the elderly, regardless of infirmity, is considered rude. The same is true if you don’t give up your seat for a pregnant women, a priest, a monk, or the disabled, to name a few.

    In Japan, it’s considered rude to offer to give up your seat to the elderly because it implies that the elderly person is infirm and needs help–it’s a sense of pride in being physically fit at an older age and the older person doesn’t want to be viewed as needing help. But given the OP’s use of terms, I think the OP doesn’t live in Japan.

    The kicker for me was the coat incident. Obviously the OP knew she marked the wife’s coat but the OP, based on the post, didn’t stop at that time and offer to pay for cleaning or even apologize. Maybe the OP did and just left it off the post. But if the OP didn’t, refusing to give up your seat to the father and then mark the wife’s coat with your bicycle tire would be viewed, for most people, as passive-aggressive retaliation for asking for the seat in the first place.

    Actions have consequences. And the OP certainly has the right to not give up the seat. But the employer also has the right to not offer the job. If that was the reason for the lack of an offer, probably one of the most expensive lessons learned about public transportation etiquette.

    1. (Different) Rebecca*

      I’m actually less inclined to ding the OP for not offering in the moment. There’s really not much time if one is still going to get off at that stop in which to pause and chat about what happened to whose belongings, and many people, myself included, see that as the potential price of cheap public transport. Now, I will ding them for not immediately offering once they knew who the woman was, or even upon seeing her again in the elevator. A “oh my god, I was so rude and hurried the other day, let me apologize and pay for the damage” might have gone a very long way.

      1. KR*

        Yeah – I think OP could have turned it around and said something like, “I’m so sorry about the other day, that rudeness is out of character for me and with the rush to get off the train the other day I didn’t have time to give you my information for dry cleaning costs. Please let me know how much the dry cleaning costs will be and pass my apologies to your father. “

      2. Bess*

        I’ll agree with this. In the moment the doors open and close pretty quick, so I’d really just be profusely apologizing but in the rush (and particularly if I were wrangling a bike) it might not occur to me to stay an extra stop/offer to pay to clean. BUT I’d be sincerely apologizing at the very least, and it’s weird that the OP doesn’t mention doing that. And, yeah, the elevator is the missed opportunity for a better apology and/or offer to clean the clothing.

    2. Fiennes*

      Interesting point about culture. I’m generally pretty quick to offer my seat if someone older/with a small child/etc doesn’t have one — but I’ve noticed that older men are sometimes reluctant to take them. I think the old rule of giving up your seat to a lady was impressed on them when they were young, and as long as they’re remotely capable of standing, they won’t take a seat from a woman. Whereas if a guy then offers his seat, they’ll take it. The unspoken politics of these things can get complicated!

      1. Just Another Techie*

        I once witnessed an interaction where a young black man tried to give up his seat to an elderly white gentleman, on a train in the northeast of the US. The older man was so incensed at the presumption that he wasn’t healthy enough to stand, he totally lost his temper and started screaming at the younger guy to sit back down. The younger guy refused (I don’t know why) and eventually the old guy yelled at me to take the vacant seat, as I was the only female-presenting person in the car. It was pretty ridiculous all around.

        1. JeanB in NC*

          That reminds me of a Douglas Adams story about waiting for a plane (or something) in Africa with his camera crew and there was only one short covered bench. All the guys were trying to be so polite to let someone else sit down that it ended up with everyone standing! (Of course, after a bit the Scottish guy muttered something Scottish and ended up laying down on the bench.)

      2. Sylvia*

        It can. I’ve run into the same thing. I don’t want to be rude to them by not offering help, but I also don’t want to be rude to them by offering help they’ll feel undermines them. :/

      3. mrs__peel*

        As a younger woman, I found that offering seats to older men was a bit of a social minefield. There are some who clearly need it, but there are also a lot who seem to find it a painful blow to the ego. (Like when younger people start calling you “sir” or “ma’am”…)

        I always got up if asked (of course), but I was often hesitant if I should offer it to an older man without a visible cane, walker, etc. I didn’t want to offend anyone!

      4. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I was at a women’s festival recently and was helping in the kitchen. I offered to take a big tub of potatoes from one of the older (probably 70-ish) women, and she refused my help with a little smile and, “I’m still butch.” Still makes me smile when I think of it.

      5. Kate 2*

        I have found that elderly-seeming people of both sexes can be very upset when you offer them a seat. Now I don’t offer, I just wait and see if they ask for one. I have had/seen a couple of bad incidents when a person tried to give a seat to an elderly looking person who turned out to be only 50 or even 40!

        1. HR is fun*

          I’m early 40s, able-bodied, and not pregnant. A woman recently offered her seat to me on the subway. I politely declined but she kept offering. Maybe 3 more times. I kept politely declining. Really, lady, you are totally giving me a complex! I don’t even have gray hair!

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Generally the rider does not have a “right” to a seat. The rules of carriage for most public transit requires giving up a seat to those who need it not just a designated seat.

      I would also think (though I am American) that in Japan it would still be quite rude to ignore an elderly person who asked for a seat. For most (or many) people, asking for a needed seat is going to be difficult to do – to just ignore another human being asking for a reasonable amount of help is what is galling to people her. The OP was asked for a seat, not a kidney.

      1. Just Another Techie*

        I lived in Osaka for a year, and IME, there were always plenty of empty seats labeled as being reserved for elderly and disabled passengers. So if an elderly person needed to sit, they almost never needed to ask someone to give up their seat. Unlike in Boston, where people will sit in the reserved seats if it looks like no one around needs them, in Osaka, even when the bus was hella crowded, people would leave those seats empty just in case.

        1. Kate 2*

          Interesting. I have never heard, in America, of seats being reserved for the elderly. In my city we have seats specially labeled for the elderly, disabled, and pregnant that anyone can sit in. If you sit there though, and are not one of the three, you are legally required to give up your seat if you are asked by a member of one of the three groups.

          1. KV*

            It’s the same in all the cities I’ve been in Japan. You can sit in those seats if you need to, but you are supposed to get up if someone in those categories needs a seat. Trains aren’t usually packed enough that it’s an issue unless it’s peak rush hour.

      2. KV*

        In my area of Japan there’s signs all over the trains in my area that say you should offer a seat to someone in need because of health reasons, or if they’re elderly, pregnant, or traveling with children. I and others give up seats all the time as a courtesy, and certainly if someone asked, anybody decent would get up.

        Do you see more old people out doing their own thing without assistance in Japan? For sure (same with little kids which weirds me out far more), but offering up a seat is seen as a kindness, not condescending.

    4. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I am in the US and generally will not offer my seat to someone who appears able-bodied, regardless of age. However I certainly would give it up if asked, or if the person is otherwise signaling that they would like to sit down.

    5. BigJlittlej*

      I’ve been riding public transport in the US for decades and have never heard of giving up your seat for a priest or a monk, just because they are a priest or a monk. That seems really strange.

      1. Willow*

        Same here. If they’re elderly or something sure, but not just because of their profession.

      2. Tealeaves*

        I’ve not heard about priests, but in places like Thailand where religion is very important to them, people respect monks a lot. They even have seats marked as reserved for monks. It’s a profession but not one you only do 9 to 5. It’s your whole life 24/7 from the moment you commit. It’s a very difficult “job” to give up your normal material life to be a monk, and not everyone can pass the test to even be accepted as one in the first place. It’s actually a really formal process.

    6. former JET*

      I lived in Japan for several years and often observed people offering seats to the elderly, so I’m not sure I agree about that being rude. (Unless maybe this a regional difference thing?) I would be more surprised to see someone ask for a seat, since the culture is so strongly geared toward not being a bother to others.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah, that wasn’t my experience in Japan. But there think they’re more worried I’ll talk to them :)

        Public transportation in Japan is just a pleasure, even when the trains are insanely packed. It made returning to DC all that more jarring.

    7. LKW*

      From a cultural perspective, it’s not that much difference in the west when you offer your seat to an elderly man. Sometimes it is seen as an insult. However, in this case, there was an actual request. If a man is asking for a seat, or someone is asking on behalf of him, then it is safe to assume that that internal battle is fought and over with. Give up the seat.

    8. Cassie*

      My boss, who has gone to Japan for business often, told me the same thing (about it being perceived as being rude). I guess the way to give up your seat without being rude culturally would be to just voluntarily get up (without asking) so a seat just happened to be free and the person can sit in it if he/she so chooses.

      When I travel with my mom on vacation (in Asia), people would offer her seats about 75% of the time, priority seating and non-prioirty seating. Even on packed trains, where it’s kind of difficult to see everyone and judge whether you should offer a seat, someone would invariably wave her over. If no one offered a seat, I’d asked her if she wanted to sit down (because I was going to ask someone to move), she’d say “no, it’s okay” and then someone nearby would get up. I actually don’t know if I even know how to ask for a seat in the language of the country we were visiting, tbh.

    9. Bonky*

      Wow – I didn’t know that about Japan, and happily it’s not been my experience (I spend a lot of time there and I’m always uncomfortably aware of how many etiquette rules I must be unconsciously breaking). I was there last December, when I was quite visibly pregnant, and two really very elderly ladies, one with a stick got onto the subway. I got out of my seat (one of the very few for pregnant/elderly/disabled people – they’re marked as such) and offered it to the lady closest to me who had the stick, who seemed very pleased and relieved. I really, hand on heart, don’t think she was offended.

      The very young guy sitting next to me didn’t budge, but that’s a different story.

  24. phil*

    I used to be in the entertainment business and that production assistant you were rude to 3 years ago is the producer you trying to get a job with today.
    Be nice to everybody.

  25. Megan*

    Not to be the skunk at the garden party, but does this whole email smell a little off to anyone else? What are the odds in any city big enough to have a commuter train that the person you happen to slight on the train is also the wife of the CEO you’ll be interviewing with a day later? I’m sure Allison screens emails carefully, but the whole scenario seems farfetched.

        1. Moose and Squirrel*

          Maybe because I’ve been watching a lot of Seinfeld reruns lately, but I thought this sounded like an episode too! Not to say this isn’t believable. I think that’s where Seinfeld got so much of its appeal.

    2. PiggyStardust*

      SKUNK AT THE GARDEN PARTY. <3 <3 <3

      I imagined the OP was on their way home from their internship, and the wife was in the area. It's pretty plausible, depending on the city. Train does also not mean subway, so I wonder if it was like a commuter train from the city to the suburbs?

    3. Archie Goodwin*

      Not in the least to me – coincidences happen. A friend and I, both members of a choir with about 100 singers, were at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival on Sunday…despite the crowds, we managed to run into two other singers. This is the fifth year in a row that’s happened, and each year it’s been someone different. We’ve started taking bets on who it’ll be next year. :-)

      And that’s a pretty large haystack, and a number of little needles. So yes, it’s definitely possible.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Haha, as a fellow chorister, it is so funny that this happens ALL THE TIME. I ran into my director on the street once in a totally random location. Also rode the train back from the Westminster Kennel Club dog show with about 6 fellow chorus members, none of whom had been in touch with each other before the show.

        Big cities are rife with these weird coincidences, especially if people live, work, and socialize in similar locations.

      2. sam*

        Heh. I live in NYC, and run into people I know all the time on the subway. Or just randomly on the street.

        One time, when I was hosting some out-of-town colleagues for a meeting, they were remarking about how they could *never* live in NYC because it was just so big and they couldn’t deal with how impersonal it was. I jokingly said that it was really just a “big small town”, and that I had run into an old friend just that morning on my way to work.

        Literally as I was telling them this, while we walked to dinner, we ran into my old boss from my previous job in the middle of the street. They were all like “We didn’t actually believe you until we LITERALLY WITNESSED IT HAPPEN”.

        Even I had to admit that it was a little weird.

        1. nonegiven*

          We were tourists, from fly over country, in Washington DC. We asked a stranger on the street for directions. It turned out she worked for the same government agency as my sister, and while they didn’t know each other, they had they people they knew in common.

        2. Sarah*

          I agree! I once ran into a college roommate on the subway, in DC (a different city than we had gone to school in) … it was a few years later when neither of us realized the other one had moved to DC, so we were both so surprised and did a triple-take! Life is random. :)

          1. Bibliovore*

            I jumped on a subway car that was just pulling out and realized I might be going the wrong direction. I turned to my left and asked is this train going down town? The person I asked had been the mom from the family I was a nanny for 10 years before.

      3. Michael Carmichael*

        I ran into like 8 people I know/work for at the Women’s March in a crowd of about 20,000. I don’t find this an unbelievable coincidence, particularly given that it sounds like they were traveling from a spot near the office.

      4. Felicia*

        I live in the 4th largest city in North America, and see people I know on the subway often enough randomly that this is entirely possible. You’d think in a city of over 3 million I wouldn’t run into people i know who don’t live/work near me, but it keeps happening.

      5. Falling Diphthong*

        I live in the US. A few days ago, we were on top of the Aguille du Midi in France, where my 15 year old son ran into someone from his class at high school, also standing in line to do the Void photo.

        1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

          Indeed, several years ago while vacationing in Dominican Republic I chatted with a woman while waiting for a bus into town. It turned out that I knew her father.

    4. fposte*

      I think it’s plausible, and I also think there’s no gain in calling it fake anyway–all that does is discourage potential letter writers.

    5. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      Having lived in London, which it sounds like is a fair assumption OP might be posting from, there’s several huge connecting stations where basically everyone going to or from my office had to get to before we all dispersed to our respective lines.

      1. Discordia Angel Jones*

        I have to say, given the use of “lift” instead of “elevator” your location assumption may well be true (or it may be another UK city).

        In which case, since I do live in London… it’s fairly common for seat requests to be flat out ignored on the tube or the train. Sometimes it’s because the person is plugged in (headphones, using phone / ipad / etc) and really doesn’t see or hear the other person. Sometimes it’s because Londoners can be pricks. Sometimes it’s because people are scared to offer pregnant looking ladies seats in case they aren’t pregnant (case in point, I look pregnant, and get offered seats, and have to uncomfortably decline them, even when the offeror gets weirdly insistant LOL). I actually do not offer seats unless asked for them, because I have been on the receiving end of some significant abuse on a number of occasions just for doing so. If directly asked, however, I will stand (even if the asker is rude, which people sometimes are).

        It’s still rude to flat out ignore someone, but not uncommon. What probably clinched it IMO was the bike on coat incident. It’s plausible that OP didn’t have time to offer more than a “sorry!” when disembarking the train. But. OP rode in the lift with the woman and didn’t apologise for it then, either!

        To be honest, OP, you need to learn some lessons from this. Kindness pays, and karma is real.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      For the record, no, I don’t have any way of screening emails carefully. (Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean there, though?) I don’t answer things I don’t think are plausible, but this one seems perfectly plausible to me.

      Like I say in the site rules, “I have no way of knowing if the letters people submit or real or not. I assume all advice columnists get trolled now and then, but I don’t really care as long as the answer might be useful to someone.”

      But yeah, as fposte says, it tends to be derailing and discouraging to LWs to speculate.

    7. velika*

      Eh, I live in a major city and once ran into the CEO of one of my company’s arms (we’re a big megacorp with more than 70k employees, with multiple CEOs reporting up to one single CEO) who doesn’t even live in my city while I was on the subway. Coincidences do happen.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I ran into my own DAD on the Metro once. He doesn’t even live here – was in town for a meeting and we were planning to meet up later that night. We ended up on the same car at lunchtime.

        2. mrs__peel*

          When I was 10 years old, I was visiting DC and ran into my dad who was there at a political protest. (I was with my mom that weekend and had no idea he would be there– we all lived in upstate New York). Still one of the weirdest experiences of my life!

          1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

            When I was 12 I went to a Red Sox game on a field trip (it was for Math class and we had to monitor the stats of the game in the program the way they did back in the day in case you were wondering!). I went to the bathroom and as I came out of the ladies room I ran into my uncle who had called off sick to work for the game. He worked for another relative so he bought me lunch to buy my silence. :) Every time I go to a ball game I hope to run into him again. I ate like a King that day. :)

    8. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Coming or going from the same location? Hardly. I commute through a large and highly used subway stop in Midtown and I regularly see coworkers coming and going, too. If the wife was also coming from the office, being on the same train with an employee doesn’t seem strange in the slightest.

    9. AMPG*

      I’ve had random encounters on the DC Metro more times than I can count – I swear I saw everyone I ever went to college with that had moved into the area that way. I didn’t find this letter far-fetched at all.

    11. Artemesia*

      Returning from Paris this spring we were at the immigration global entry kiosk when we turned and noticed that the two people at the next kiosk were old friends of ours from Nashville flying in from Norway. Once decades ago in a line for the Uffizi in Florence I looked up and the people coming towards us as the line twisted was a couple who lived up the street from us in Nashville. I’ll bet all of us have at least half a dozen stories of odd coincidences like this.

      1. BF50*

        As a kid on a Hawaii vacation, we ran into our neighbors on the beach. Neither my mom or the neighbor lady were particularly interested in hanging out with each other on a family vacation. They very politely chatted about plans for the week and I believe very carefully avoided bumping into each other again. It was hilariously awkward.

    12. Yetanotherjennifer*

      Statistically speaking, all these occasions are combined when you consider the odds of one of them happening and so the odds end up being very good. It’s not the specific chance of running into your college roommate in a completely different country, it’s the odds of something happening that is remarkable enough to make you marvel at the coincidence. And I know that by explaining this, I’ve turned myself into the skunk.

      1. Artemesia*

        Yeah it is like the ‘amazing coincidence’ that if you have a group of X people (I can’t remember the number but it is pretty low) that odds are great two will have the same birthday. (I am in one bookclub that has 9 members — one of the other women has my same birthday) In my examples earlier above the odds of running into those precise people were astronomical but the odds of occasionally running into someone or other you know in an odd place are low — it happens to all of us sooner or later.

      2. Jersey's Mom*

        Wear a Green Bay Packers shirt anywhere in the world and within an hour you will run into a Wisconsinite. This has happened to me in Belize, Ireland, Australia…

    13. MicroManagered*

      It doesn’t seem farfetched that CEO’s wife and OP might be on the same train, presumably to/from the same company?

    14. LawBee*

      What read as off to me wasn’t the coincidence, but the whole entitled tone of the letter. Ugh.

    15. PizzaDog*

      There was a tweet that went viral a couple of years ago, saying something to the effect of “Loved seeing the guy who told me to f_ off on the tube this morning walk into my office for an interview this afternoon. He didn’t get it.” or something. It could happen.

    16. Yes, this could've happened.*

      Several years ago, I was trying to get some temp work as a legal secretary at a white-shoe law firm in NYC. I went there to take a test, and when I left, I accidentally took someone else’s raincoat. I did return it, but the owner claimed I spilled something on the coat (I don’t think I did, but you never know; maybe I did. I did have it with me at lunch afterward.). This incident was enough to not only ensure I didn’t get the job, but also to blackball me at the temp agency–I never got a gig from them again. And this was totally accidental and I was contrite. So I actually find this scenario plausible.

    17. Willow*

      It’s not surprising that it happened to someone. And even if the odds are small, Alison isn’t going to hear from the many people who refused to give up seats to people totally unconnected to their jobs.

    18. anonymouse*

      I accidentally ran into my roommate at the Women’s March in DC back in January. In a crowd of *500,000 people*. We hadn’t come together; neither of us had known the other was planning to be there. It still boggles my mind.

    19. LKW*

      For several years, once a year – I used to randomly run into a guy I went to college with. First in Washington DC – then in NYC.

      It does happen.

    20. doreen*

      I probably would have thought it was farfetched, too, until last month. My daughter got married and my sister and I posted some photos on Facebook. The next morning, I got a message from one of my childhood friends that he was surprised to see the photos – because he works with my son-in-law and has met my daughter at company events but had no idea that she was my daughter. And we are all in NYC.

    21. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s down to six degrees of relationship now?
      Everyone in the world is no more than six relationships apart from everyone else.
      Megan, this means add five people and you and I know each other! lol.

      The odds of these types of things happening are actually a bit higher than we think.

    22. Emi.*

      It is a big coincidence, but I don’t think that makes it implausible. The vast majority of job applicants don’t meet their prospective CEOs wives on the subways … but then we don’t get letters from them.

  26. Construction Safety*

    The Clancy in me wonders if it wasn’t all a test. Even paranoids have enemies,

    somewhere.

  27. Simms*

    I am going to take a counter position here and say the OP didn’t do anything wrong. Why didn’t the lady ask others on the train instead of someone who is in the middle of reading? If it was packed it wasn’t like there was no one else to ask. Also the bike leaving marks was likely from her hovering way too close to him because she was mad that he didn’t do what she asked. I have been on packed trains and it is not too hard to shift away from a bike when people are getting off mostly because they tend to be near the door anyway because that is where there is room for bikes.

    Older does not mean infirm. I know plenty of people older than me who can run circles around me so just because they are older does not mean I would give up my seat on a bus (unless in a marked seat). That does not make me a horrible selfish person. It just means I am like everyone else on public transit, tired and wanting to get where I am going. To be honest where does the elder thing end? I am 30 so does that give me the right to ask anyone younger then me to give up their seat just because? Is is 40, 50, white hair, etc. because none of those are markers for being infirm or in poor health.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      “Why didn’t the lady ask others on the train instead of someone who is in the middle of reading?”

      Because literally everybody on a train is reading, or playing with their phone, or listening to music.

      1. SC*

        Yep. Reading or looking at your phone and avoiding eye contact with other passengers is the best defense against someone else approaching you. That’s generally a good thing on public transit, but it would make me more inclined to give up my seat to someone who actually asked.

    2. CatCat*

      So how are you evaluating whether someone who has requested a seat actually needs the seat?

      I mean, I usually just take people’s word for it that they have a need to sit greater than my want to sit.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Yeah, this attitude that seats should only be given up to people who visibly appear worthy is really problematic. I understand not proactively offering a seat to anyone with grey in their hair, but as many, many people have said, if someone asks, they probably have a need. I don’t think people should have to explain the details of their medical situation just to get a seat on a bus/train.

    3. fposte*

      Everybody has the right to ask anything they want. In general, the U.S. civilized rule is to assume that asking for a seat comes from need whether that need is visible or not, and to give up your seat unless you also have a particular need. It’s not about whether somebody’s elder or not. If you’re healthy, it’s not like it’s a big loss to you to stand up if the person doesn’t need the seat that badly, whereas it’s quite a loss to the person who needs a seat and doesn’t get one.

        1. fposte*

          Agreed, but I was responding to Simms and making sure to keep my statement to the country I knew. (And it sounds like it’s a rule that’s pretty applicable to the OP’s location anyway.)

      2. Stop That Goat*

        In all fairness, civilized rule also says that you aren’t rude when making a request of someone else.

    4. Simms*

      Also there is not a ton of time in getting off a train before the door closed. If he didn’t want to miss his stop there might not have been enough time to apologize for the scuff on her coat.

      1. sam*

        But that’s on the OP – if you’ve got a bicycle, or a lot of bags/packages, to maneuver off a crowded train, it’s on you to be proactive about getting near the door before your stop rather than waiting until the last second.

        I get that sometimes it’s not possible (I’ve actually been on trains/buses that are so crowded that I’ve missed my stop), but that’s still on the OP be to be aware of the consequences of bringing a bicycle on a crowded train (which is a jerk move to begin with – I say this as someone who sometimes has to bring my own bike on the train, as noted above)

        1. KHB*

          So if you have your bike with you, and you’re trying to get home, and all of the trains are crowded (perhaps unexpectedly), exactly what are you supposed to do?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Like others have said, you minimize the amount of space you’re taking up (which usually means standing rather than sitting) and you pay attention to your surroundings so that you can quickly see it’s inconveniencing people in a way you can alter.

            1. KHB*

              I was responding to sam’s claim that “bringing a bicycle on a crowded train…is a jerk move to begin with.” That seems like an overreach to me, and seems like it would leave people with no good options in a lot of situations, especially when the trains are unexpectedly crowded (which sounds like it might have been the case here, since the OP says this happened on a Sunday evening, which is not usually a peak travel time).

              (Also, the fact that the OP had a seat at the beginning of the story makes it sound like the train was not especially crowded when she got on it, and it only filled up later.)

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I mean, there are lots of transit systems that explicitly ban bikes at peak hours because “bringing a bicycle on a crowded train . . . is a jerk move.” And if a roaming security officer sees you, they can kick you off the train before you get to your destination. For commuter rails, in particular, those hours can extend into the evenings on weekends.

                I’m not anti-bike—I think the problem here was how OP handled the situation, not the bike itself or its existence. But there are transit systems where bringing a bike when the train will be particularly crowded is not just socially taboo, it violates the operating agency’s administrative rules.

                1. Y*

                  there are lots of transit systems that explicitly ban bikes at peak hours

                  Exactly, so exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis.

              2. sam*

                I guess you missed the part where I said this as someone who has brought my own bike on the train.

                As someone who has to do this from time to time, it is on the cyclist to recognize that they are the ones taking up a larger-than-normal amount of space, that they are being awkward and imposing on other transit riders. And in such circumstances, it is the CYCLIST’s responsiblity to go out of their way to be as accomodating as possible to everyone else on the train.

                Yes – bringing your bike on a crowded train is a jerk move. And sometimes it’s unavoidable. So you do everything humanly possible in all of your *other* interactions on that ride to show that you’re not actually a jerk.

            2. New-ish Manager*

              I really enjoyed this letter and your response, Alison. The thing that amuses me the most about reading the comments is that all of your followers are really starting to sound like mini-Alisons in their responses and the phrase “oof” comes up in the comments with astounding frequency. We are all becoming your minions :)

              1. Lyricthrope*

                I’ve been using “Oof” since I was in High School, long before AAM started. ;)

                1. New-ish Manager*

                  Yup – oof existed before Alison. It just exists in the comments on her site a whole lot more than it appears elsewhere on the internet.

    5. blackcat*

      ” Why didn’t the lady ask others on the train instead of someone who is in the middle of reading?”

      OP had a bike, which is a good indication of abled-bodiness (much better than simply being young looking). So if the woman was looking around for an abled-bodied person, OP would be a good bet.

    6. JustaCPA*

      Older does not mean infirm but I think we can correctly assume that if the lady asked the OP to give up their seat, there was probably a damn good reason for it. I personally always offer up my seat to anyone with grey/white hair – and I’m 50 but perfectly healthy. The person can always refuse if they are able. And it doesnt matter what age you are if you have some disability, then yes absolutely you should ask for some help (ie giving up seat, turning turnstile, whatever).

    7. js*

      eh… sure, maybe you have the *right* to keep your seat, but you are still probably going to come off badly. and reading is not some ‘get of of jail free’ card from being asked to be aware and considerate of those around you.

    8. Jessie the First (or second)*

      “Why didn’t the lady ask others on the train instead of someone who is in the middle of reading? If it was packed it wasn’t like there was no one else to ask. ”

      Every single person on the train would be able to come up with a “but why did you ask me? Why not someone else?” There is no good way to pick a person. It’s awkward as all hell to have to ask for a seat, half the time people ignore you and refuse to respond, some people will respond but will get offended that you had the nerve to ask – I mean, seriously. If you have need of a seat, and the disabled seats are full, and no one volunteers, you have to just ask someone. Likely someone close, so you don’t have to manuever your disabled/elderly self through crowds. Most people are reading or have earbuds in, so if you decide to ask only people who are doing nothing and who make eye contact, you won’t get a seat.

      And as others have said, no, older does not mean infirm. But in *this* case it apparently did mean that, because dad needed a seat. If she were angry because no one volunteered a seat, your point would be valid – why would people volunteer if they didn’t know a seat was needed? – but we know he needed a seat because she asked for one. Sure, you can decide not to believe a person needs it unless they explain why, but that would seem hostile and weird.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, let’s roll with this. OP did nothing wrong, let’s say.
      The person who had the power to hire OP did indeed believe that OP did something wrong. And all of us could say, “No, you’re fine, OP” and none of us have the power to hire OP at that particular job.
      In the end, all that matters is the opinion of the person doing the hiring.
      It’s to OP’s benefit to try to understand that CEO’s perspective so OP can take corrective measures in the future.

      1. Lyricthrope*

        Precisely! Rude people aren’t a legally protected class against hiring discrimination!

  28. Bend & Snap*

    Everything Alison said.

    I train people to interact with media as part of my job and the biggest warning is always “beware the walk to the elevator.”

    Basically, whenever you’re in public, you’re being observed whether you’re thinking about it or not. And the result of being observed can make or break the tone of a media article, a job prospect, a personal relationship and pretty much anything else you can think of.

    It’s a good thing to keep in mind in every aspect of life.

    1. Katelyn*

      A lawyer I worked with always told his interns the same story about how the firm lost a fairly large case because two lawyers were going over the details on their way home one evening… not realizing the person sitting behind them on the subway was the opposing counsel… so his finishing line was always something along the lines of “assume the guy in jeans behind you could be the trial judge you face tomorrow”.

      1. KTZee*

        I have definitely overheard, on multiple occasions, strategic discussions amongst employees of direct competitors of my employer, including some involving the specific market space I work in. Both on public transit and in restaurants.

        It’s a small world out there.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        There was something on the news within the last couple of years that told a similar story. Ugh.
        It’s easy to think we are anonymous in a sea of humanity but that is not always true.

  29. Sup Sup Sup*

    I have a feeling I’m piling on, but as a New Yorker who rides the subway every day, I too am loathe to give up a seat after a long day. HOWEVER, I have to say, that if someone asked me directly for my seat, unless I had a physical reason for not doing so, I would give up my seat and assume that they needed it more than me (again, providing I wasn’t ill, lame, or wearing 6 in heels). In the end, it seems the LW was looking out for #1, which is perfectly fine. But you can’t be surprised when people don’t appreciate a courtesy nod to the other people oribting the same planet and you get called out for it. (You in the most universal sense, not the direct-pointing-the-finger-at-you you)

    1. Still haven't created I name I like myself here yet*

      Agreed that’s where I’m at with this too. I’m also in NYC and have had times where I’ve been asked to give a seat and decline because of footwear or my own invisible disability. I’ve also been ignored or declined outright when I’ve asked for a seat on the subway or long island railroad.

      Ignoring rude or what is perceived as blunt requests is common over here. Ignoring nice requests even get the cold shoulder. As a transplant from IL that was a big culture shock for me but I roll with the punches I just think this was a learning experience for the LW and understand that sometimes there are consequences for even the smallest of actions.

      1. CoffeeCoffeeCoffee*

        I’m also in NYC and the concept of someone having a bike in the aisle AND sitting in an actual seat would mean I immediately dislike them/ wondering what train this was that was even space enough to do both of those things.

        1. CityMouse*

          I mentioned this above but this would be considered very rude in both DC and Chicago. Maybe okay if the train was totally empty.

          1. halfmanhalfshark*

            Definitely in Chicago. I admit I’m not entirely charitable towards people who bring bikes on the train when it’s even a little bit crowded (put it on the front of a bus or something, dang) but during very crowded time? I would expend a lot of energy glaring at that person.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      CEO was looking out for #1 also.
      But in the CEO’s case #1 would be what is in the best interest of his company.

  30. The Rat-Catcher*

    I come from a rural area and have only taken public transit a few times in my life, so I’m mostly in the dark on the finer points of the etiquette. From that viewpoint, I wouldn’t necessarily be upset if you had denied the request – I’d probably just move on to someone else. But to ignore it altogether would stand out in my mind as being pretty rude.
    I can also see why this process feels intrusive – someone who is theoretically supposed to have no say in the hiring decision did, if events happened as you suspect. Because it is often said that spouses Should Not Be Involved in Work Things, Ever. But hiring managers use the information they have, and that incident indicated in some way that you weren’t the right fit for that job/culture.
    I agree that trying to clarify at this point won’t help. This could even be a case of “you were a good fit, but someone else was better,” in which case you will look bad for calling a meeting to talk about this whole subway incident.

    1. Temperance*

      On the flip side, though, as a young-looking woman in the city, I’m often asked for things and I’ve learned that non-response is sometimes the best way to go about this. I’ve had random (not homeless) men ask me to buy them lunch, for example. I’ve had other men make more “colorful” requests. I ignore most people who approach me on the street or public transit because they probably want something from me that I more than likely don’t want to give them.

      I have been asked for my seat on public transit and have declined, which invited a rude response from the asker. For reference, it wasn’t in the accessible section, and at the time, I was going through intense physical therapy and was advised by my PT not to stand for long periods of time because it was making my issue worse.

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          Exactly. Certainly there are requests made of you that you can and probably should ignore (like some Temperance mentioned), but ignoring someone requesting a seat on public transit is rude.

        2. Temperance*

          I declined, but honestly, the asker was so rude in responding that I would consider simply not responding going forward. Sharing my medical hisotry with people who assume that they are in worse shape due to age is not something I feel super compelled to do.

          1. Sal*

            God, sometimes I really do not miss New York. (I mean, I’m assuming.) For the most part, New Yorkers are lovely and helpful and kind. But the proportion of strangers who are willing to harangue you is really unmatched.

            1. Temperance*

              I’m in Philly and I think it’s probably comparable. I’ll never forget the day that I was approached by 6 different panhandlers in a 15 minute walk. Since then, I’ve perfected my dead-eyed stare and RBF.

                1. Temperance*

                  I frequent the Regional Rail, the MFL, and the BSL. I’ve learned never to make eye contact.

                2. Anononon*

                  When I started taking PATCO, I had one coworker tell me to “just don’t make eye contact.”

              2. W. S. Gilbert*

                When I lived in Philly, I found that a sincerely regretful “I’m sorry,” without breaking stride was an effective generic response to panhandling.

                One gentleman did reply, “Why be SORRY when you could just give me a QUARTER?” If I’d had a quarter, I would have given it to him for that.

      2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        I am 100% with you on the first paragraph. As for the second, I’ve never been in a position where I need to decline a seat request, so I guess I couldn’t say how I would react if I’d experienced pushback on that. That said, the OP did not indicate that they could not stand, only that they did not want to stand, so that to me makes the difference here.

      3. The Rat-Catcher*

        I definitely did not mean to imply that you are obligated to respond when you don’t feel safe. In that situation, you do what you need to!

  31. The IT Manager*

    … only very few trainees are offered the permanent job. … have been told repeatedly by HR that I would definitely be offered the job. … everyone treated this as a mere courtesy meeting or just a sort of final formality.

    I wonder, we get a lot of letters about people assuming that they were getting the job and they don’t. It’s possible that this is all incorrect interpretation by the LW. I agree that an interview with the CEO does not sound like a formality. If you actually had the job before the interview, you would have already been offered the job before the interview with the CEO and it would have been called something else like an “introduction” or “welcome meeting.”

    But maybe this letter’s assumptions are all correct. There’s still nothing to do. You showed your true colors. Everyone “knows” that you’re an entitled, rude jerk. (You may disagree but I bet this is how the CEO’s wife told the story.) The idea pay for dry cleaning coat is definitely too little, too late. Besides the CEO wife is very unlikely to need your money to afford cleaning the coat if it is permanently stained. But the fact that you didn’t offer to “make it right” when it happened and when you never expected to see her again means that this is only being done by you because you think it caused you to lose the job not because it is the right thing to do. I’d argue it’s a much more right thing to do for people who don’t have a CEO’s income.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      This is an awesome point. Young, inexperienced people, particularly those who know they’re intelligent and high-achieving, have a tendency to miss workplace cues. I’ve worked with plenty of interns who seemed blithely certain that the internship was just a preliminary formality to being offered a salaried job, and it’s just not so.

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. One of the major life lessons of your 20s (& 30s) is realizing that Work is NOT School. A lot of the stuff that gets you on the honor roll actually puts you at a disadvantage against those with average grades but better work ethic & social skills.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          This was a recent Prudie letter that I wished had come here. OP was so certain that their Ivy League degree should have trumped the piddly details “deep knowledge of the company” “has worked here twice as long” “has excellent contacts relevant to the higher position” of their state school competition.

    2. Confused Teapot Maker*

      +1,000 to this

      Glossing over the more questionable details of OP’s character, OP’s biggest mistake work-wise here was assuming the job was their’s when it wasn’t. Until that offer letter is in your hands, the job isn’t yours at all and anything could happen – hiring freezing, better turning up out of the blue, CEO’s wife taking a dislike to you – regardless of how encouraging the recruiter has been up until this point. And complaining to HR that you didn’t get ‘your’ job because of some incident on a train (which, because nobody has said it was directly linked, we can’t even be positive is what caused them to be taken out the running for the position) is only going to make OP look entitled and probably confirm that they made they right choice.

      This is true even if I play devil’s advocate and assume there was nothing wrong with OP’s behaviour on the train (e.g. the CEO’s wife wasn’t just rude – she was flat out abusive so OP thought it was best to ignore her rather than engage) – the job still isn’t OP’s and it could be pulled for any reason, even ‘the CEO’s wife is crazy and has developed an irrational hatred towards OP’.

  32. Tiffin*

    As with others, in my experience, people rarely ask for a seat unless they really need it. I was once on a bus that picked up another busload of people because the bus broke down. An obviously very pregnant woman (no assumptions; she was even carrying What to Expect When You’re Expecting) made it halfway to the back of the bus before anyone (me) offered her a seat even though we were about to spend 45 minutes barreling down the highway. I couldn’t believe that no one else offered and I was REALLY surprised that she hadn’t asked. Public transit is just weird like that sometimes.

    I think the OP should have given up the seat, but if not, s/he should have at least responded. “I’m sorry, I can’t; I have materials I needed to study” would have been plenty.

    1. Here we go again*

      As someone who was in her early 20s and had a guy with white hair get insulted that I offered up my seat, I refuse to aut0-offer my seat to anyone any more. If someone wants it, they can ask for it, but I got an earful several years ago and I won’t forget it.

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        One outlier doesn’t really mean you shouldn’t continue to be polite.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, I think we’ve all gotten the occasional misplaced snap when holding a door open or offering to give up a seat (mine was a guy who accused me of offering him a seat because I thought he was a woman. Um, no). I’m certainly not going to let the people who are badly behaved ruin it for people in need.

      2. Beth*

        I think sometimes there are very clear lines of who should be offered a seat. But I honestly get a lot of anxiety when a woman is standing near me and I can’t tell if she’s pregnant or not — as a fellow woman, I’d hate to be offered a seat because it was assumed I was pregnant, and I also don’t want to offer someone a seat if they are NOT pregnant/ill/etc. because I often will watch multiple packed trains pass on the way home from work just to ensure I’ll have a seat. But I will always offer a seat if it’s obvious that someone needs it. (This isn’t to say that I don’t understand invisible disabilities.. but since they are indeed invisible, I need you to tell me so I can give you the seat!)

        1. AnotherAlison*

          This would be me, too. I don’t want to just give up my seat to someone who doesn’t particularly want it. . .someone can ask if they need it, but I don’t think people need to proactively offer up their seat. Some people have medical conditions that make sitting more uncomfortable than standing. I can’t know everything about everyone! I prefer someone just ask, and I’ll gladly give up my seat.

        2. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          Yeah, I’m pretty conservative about proactively offering up my seat (social anxiety, WOO), but I think that not offering a seat isn’t nearly as much of an offense as not giving up a seat when asked.

        3. Tiffin*

          I just want to say that I understand worrying about offending someone or giving up a seat unnecessarily, but in this case, most of us on the bus definitely knew this woman was pregnant. It was a commuter bus, so we rode with the same people just about every day. She had a small frame all throughout pregnancy, but her stomach grew quite a bit (of course). And again, she was carrying pregnancy-related books. :-)

          1. Sarah*

            I had a hilarious interaction in the elevator today, in which an older gentleman asked: “Is it your first child?” I was momentarily taken aback because I’m only 12 weeks along and I don’t think I look THAT pregnant…until I realized I was carrying two pregnancy-related books and so that probably gave it away. :-D

            1. CM*

              I still love the comment that a law firm partner made to me on talking to women about their pregnancies: “I don’t assume she’s pregnant unless I actually see the baby crowning.”

      3. Kyrielle*

        I’ve had that happen too. If I’m unsure if it would upset someone or not, sometimes I just stand without saying anything. The person who I think needs the seat can take it…or not. If they tell me off, I’ll smile and shrug and say something about it getting more crowded and about how I get stiff if I sit too long. (I do…so it’s true…even if I haven’t been sitting on the bus/train long enough to get stiff yet.)

      4. ZTwo*

        The NYC way (at least ime) of handling this works pretty well–if there’s someone who might need a seat standing by you, you motion downward or say/mouth “do you want this?” and then they can agree/disagree without anyone having to stand which can actually clutter up the train pretty bad and make things harder for people getting off/on.

        1. Grapey*

          In my experience, if you actually get up, people tend to take the seat so as to not leave a seat empty on a packed train. If I ask without getting up, in my experience, people have usually declined. So now I usually just get up.

        2. LKW*

          Yup. You manage to catch their eye. If they want that seat – they’re looking to make that eye contact. If they don’t want the seat – they’ll have the typical commuter glazed eye stare. Then you wait for them to get to you – else as soon as you stand, some jerk is going to slip into that seat not realizing (or not caring) that a non verbal contract has already been made between sitter and stander.

      5. Kate 2*

        Me too, twice!!! It turns out sometimes that person who looks over 60 and has white hair and wrinkles is only 40. And very angry.

    2. Etak*

      I wouldn’t ask for a seat just because I’m pregnant. I *might* ask for a seat if I were pregnant and felt like I’d pass out from standing, if I saw a friendly face. But I tend to operate under the idea that ain’t no one going to help me, so I need to be able to get where I’m going and do what I’m doing without assistance. If someone offers to help, well, that’s very nice, but it’s not guaranteed. I’m not going to ask someone to give up their seat because I’m the one that put myself in that particular transit situation. I try to figure out how I can do things on my own rather than thinking, “Well, I can use this method of transit to get there IF someone offers me a seat…” because the whole train could be filled with people in worse off shape than me and then what.

  33. Blackbird*

    I don’t know if she caught you while you were extremely stressed or if you’re young and not familiar with city norms or social awareness. But the incident, coupled with an entitled tone in your letter, comes across as extremely self-centered and rude, even if that’s not your intention.

    If you don’t reflect on your behavior, this won’t be the only time in your career that these traits can break you. If a coworker asked for your help with something, I’d be very concerned that your instinct would be to ignore them if it wasn’t in your job description. Or if you wanted a management role, you wouldn’t go to bat for your employees if it didn’t benefit you directly.

    But don’t change your behavior because you want to get a job or a promotion. Change it because you want to be a better person and make the lives of people around you just a tiny bit better.

  34. micromanaged rat*

    Eh, maybe I’m projecting, but I can imagine this going like my own experiences on public transit, where multiple able-bodied appearing young people sit in seats concentrating really hard on pretending they don’t see someone who is obviously having trouble standing, and where cyclists are usually either taking up multiple seats by putting their bike across them, or have their bike parked in the designated safe wheelchair space so people in wheelchairs can’t ride securely. If it’s anything like that, I am not surprised the woman seemed a little rude.

    1. Kate 2*

      How do you know they were pretending? I read, on books and on my phone, I also tend to listen to music with headphones or earbuds at the same time. I don’t watch everyone getting on the train or bus.

      1. Whimsy and Forest Fires*

        Honestly, sometimes it’s really obvious. I use a cane, and I can absolutely tell the difference between “person who was looking at something else when I got on the train and thus hasn’t noticed that I need a seat” and “person who clearly looked right at me and my cane and then suddenly became VERY ABSORBED in staring at their phone/the ceiling/anything but me.” There are a depressingly large number of people who do the latter. I don’t think people who were reading or looking at their phone when I got on the train and didn’t happen to look up to see me are rude (particularly if they respond in a reasonable manner if I ask them if I can sit down), but I definitely think the profoundly unsubtle “WOW THIS CEILING IS JUST SO FASCINATING ALL OF A SUDDEN” people are.

  35. emw*

    No, I have to call BS on this one. The woman who asked for the seat was rude in the asking for of said seat, and NO ONE needs to take that kind of abuse from anyone. Including the CEO’s wife. Where are her manners??

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      No one is rude to ask for a seat if he, she, or a companion needs one. You seem to think that even asking for a seat is “abuse”? That’s… unusual. If someone with a cane enters the train and asks someone for a seat, you think that’s wrong or rude? I’m baffled.

      1. emw*

        Well, if the person who asked you for that seat was rude, why should you even have to reply? She’s the one who wants something, and if you ask nicely and maybe explain why you need it, you’d have a much better chance of getting it. Sounded more like the person demanded it instead of asking nicely for it.

        1. Natalie*

          why should you even have to reply?

          Well, for one, you might encounter that person later and they will remember you…

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            This. It falls under the broad umbrella of “You have the right to do X, you don’t have the right to be free of the consequences of X.”

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          Because, in the words of Hermione Granger, we have to be better than them.

          You can criticise rudeness or stoop to it. You don’t get to do both.

    2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      As noted above, “rude” does not mean “abuse.” It can mean “brusque” or even “kind of abrupt.” If someone’s blocking the train aisle with a bike, determinedly ignoring you and your elderly father as you squeeze past, those two are not inappropriate. And, not to diss OP too much, they sound like the type who’d upgrade “brusque” to “rude,” because their mindset is more than a little entitled and self-absorbed.

      And it is never impolite to ask for an able-bodied young person to give their seat to an elder. Ever.

    3. Courtney W*

      I think ignoring someone in need of a seat (regardless of how his daughter asked) and then getting their jacket dirty without even apologizing is pretty rude too. I wish OP had been a bit more specific, but if she just didn’t like the woman’s tone, that’s a pretty poor excuse and calling it “abuse” seems pretty hyperbolic. And if OP was sitting plus had a bike, that sort of arrangement is usually taking up a kind of rude amount of space with a not totally secured bike. So there may have been a reason behind the rude tone too.

    5. MicroManagered*

      Personally, I think the complaint that CEO’s wife asked “rudely” might be tacked on after the fact to defend the indefensible and make themselves sound better. I can’t prove it, obviously, but that’s my gut feeling. A softer interpretation is that it’s also possible that OP mistook frustration, apprehension about asking, language or cultural barriers, exhaustion, or some other feeling for rudeness, since they didn’t give any specific context for exactly how the request was rude.

      And frankly, it doesn’t matter. I think it’s safe to assume if an adult is asking for a seat for their parent, there’s a reason. You don’t punish someone who has a difficult time standing on public transport because a completely different person didn’t ask you in your preferred way. “No your elderly father can’t sit down because you were rude”? Doesn’t make sense.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        Thank you! That’s been bugging me all thru this thread (and I might have missed comments that addressed it). Because everyone is assuming that the person requesting the seat did it in a rude manner BECAUSE THE OP SAID SO.

        “Suddenly she appeared and rudely asked…” Suddenly? That’s awfully narrative, OP. Rudely? You thought so but you never shared her actual words, did you? So, given everything else, I’m inclined to think that she asked you something like “Please let my father sit down” or “Will you let my father sit there?” Which, setting aside everything that everyone else has said about how public transit works, is just plain not rude.

        (I say this as a fan of public transit, raised by a mother who grew up with the NYC subway.)

    6. Alex*

      The OP had a seat and a bike, so s/he was taking up more than their fair share of space. Honestly, that’s the first person who should be offering their seat. The CEO’s wife may have asked “rudely” but that doesn’t mean her dad didn’t need the seat more than OP did.

      One time I was reading and didn’t notice an older woman get on the train and she said “well, are you going to give me your f**king seat or what?” Beyond rude, but she still needed it more than I did. I agree with Alison and others that OP erred here.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Oh man, I know that the salty-mouthed older-lady thing is a stereotype and I’m sure it was unpleasant at the time, but visualizing that in my head gave me a chuckle.

        1. Liane*

          “salty-mouthed older-lad[ies]” are the commonest type of Rude Customer in my customer service experience. Including some who use the F-bomb and worse.

      2. Sal*

        Oooh, you’re a better person than I am. That would have gotten a quick “Sorry, I can’t” from me.

      3. mrs__peel*

        I kind of can’t wait until I’m old enough to mouth off to people and get away with it! At least there’s one thing to look forward to about aging…

    7. Sparkly Librarian*

      I can’t think of any rudeness (short of crossing the line to assault) that should mean the seated person shouldn’t give up their seat if they are able to stand instead. True, they might judge the rude person negatively, but to respond by ignoring the request/asking person entirely? No. I ride public transit nearly every day, and giving up a seat to someone who asks is accepted practice and common courtesy.

      1. Stop That Goat*

        Manners are common courtesy when you are making a request of someone else as well.

        If one person doesn’t fulfill the social contract, it makes it easier for the others to ignore it as well.

  36. Madame X*

    Oof.
    This looks like the result of bad luck and bad behavior on your part. You could ask the HR for feedback about your interview so that you could use that info for your future interviews.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I was given some feedback about the skills that I have to develop.

      OP got feedback; they’re just choosing to view it as wrong.

  37. Hermione*

    Not to pile on, but I would also ask the LW to consider whether they believe that one anecdote from the CEO’s spouse would completely reverse a hiring decision. My gut is telling me that the CEO and/or hiring manager was on the fence about the decision, maybe not on the LW’s ability to do the job, but on their overall fit, and this incident cemented the feeling.

    1. MicroManagered*

      I agree here. We can’t really take OP’s word that the job was in the bag. From their own description, it’s pretty rare to get a permanent offer from the training program.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Agreed! The OP says not many people get hired out of the internship program. It seems way more likely that it was the people who said they were sure to get the offer were wrong, rather than this one incident being the only thing that torpedoed their chances.

  38. Allison*

    “Ignoring someone who asks you to give up your seat to an older person who needs it is, frankly, pretty rude. If you had a medical need to sit there, it’s of course fine to explain that. But claiming the seat for yourself because you were reading and didn’t feel like standing is pretty crappy. And not even acknowledging the request is worse. There’s a social contract around this kind of thing — you give up your seat to someone who needs it more because of infirmity.”

    Basically this.

    If you’re not in a priority seat, you can argue that it’s not your duty to give up your seat the second an elderly person gets on the train, but if someone asks you to give up your seat, you acknowledge that person, and you give it up unless you also need to stay seated in a way that’s not apparent to others, in which case you politely explain. You don’t ignore people because you’d rather sit and read.

    I also like to sit and read on my commute, or watch something on my tablet, but I also aim for seats that are “safe” – avoiding the priority seats, sitting far from the door, maybe a window seat so the person in the aisle seat next to me will be the one expected to get up should an elderly person get that far in without being an offered a seat, but even then, if I’m seated and someone asks for my seat, I’m going to get up, or someone who clearly can’t stand on a moving train is standing right in front of me, I’m going to offer my seat.

    OP, I don’t know you personally, but if I saw someone ignore a request for a seat on a train and then carelessly mark someone’s coat without any sort of acknowledgement or apology, I’d figure that person is a jerk – in his own world, oblivious to others, possibly feeling entitled to barge through life without any regard to others because he’s so important others should be the ones paying attention to him. I wouldn’t want someone like that working for me.

  39. MuseumChick*

    If the incident on the train was the reason you didn’t get the job (which could or could not be true) it is a perfectly valid reason for them not offer you the job. Let’s assume that it is the reason you didn’t get the job, think of the wife likely told the CEO,

    Her: “Husband, that woman in the elevator just now…”
    CEO: “Oh, Jane? What about her?”
    Her: “Remeber the woman I told you about on the train? When I asked if she could give up her seat for Dad to sit down since he is elderly and she completely ignored me and then bumped into me with her bike getting off the train?”
    CEO: “Yes…”
    Her: “That’s her.”

    As Alison pointed out, this is a snapshot of your character that the CEO is now aware of and it doesn’t make you look goo (and these are the facts you openly admit to). Kindness to those in, what I ill-elegantly call lower positions, than yourself is something most people look for. My father never, ever, ever hired anyone who was even slightly rude to his secretary for two reasons 1) The secretary had been there for years, was an extremely good employee, and basically ran the office. 2) My dad theorized that it was a reflection on how the person would treat their direct reports and others of lower positions within the company.

    This would be no different than if you were very rude to a waiter and a someone who knew the CEO mentioned it to him.

    1. Allypopx*

      And, as we’ve talked about many times, hiring managers only have so much data to go off of to determine if someone’s going to be a good fit. Even if you’re usually an angel and someone just catches you on a bad day, you have to take it on the chin and understand they made the best choice with the information they had, and call it your luck.

      1. MuseumChick*

        Exactly. This situation might have been salvageable if, upon recognizing the CEO’s wife, the OP said something like “Excuse me, I could be wrong, but did we meet the other day on the subway? I want to apologize for what happened, both to your clothing, please let me know what the cleaning bill for that is I insist on covering it, and for ignoring you when you spoke to me. I was having a very off day and on reflection, I acted badly, please accept my apology.”

        But again, we don’t know for sure that this is what caused the LW to not get the job. We are asked to LWs at their word and yet, as other have brought up, I get the feeling that the LW here might have over-estimated the positive feedback she was getting. Though, I would not at all be surprised if this was the cause of her not getting the job. I’m picturing if my Dad was the CEO in this situation and my Mom was the one reporting the bad behavior, that would certainly affect his attitude about a potential job candidate.

  40. Vaca*

    I think you should skip HR and walk right into the CEO’s office, interrupt whatever he is doing, and tell him that you worked hard for this job over the past couple of weeks. If his wife doesn’t understand how rude she was to speak to you without prostrating herself, she needs to go. Either way, you expect an offer letter on your desk by the end of the day. Ideally you should have your bike with you when you do this – just ride the muddy thing straight down the hall and into his office.

    3. mrs__peel*

      And, if you don’t get the offer letter, destroy his suit jacket with your bike.

  41. Mr Rogers*

    Another detail that really stuck out to me was the bike. LW, if you’re on a crowded train with a bike, you really should not be sitting down unless you physically have to! Your bike is absolutely going to be in people’s way, crowding the aisle or the entrance, and the unspoken method of handling this is to be standing next to it, keeping it stable and moving it as needed. You can read your material before or after your train ride. The fact that you took up a seat while you had a bike that was surely causing people trouble on a crowded train tells me that you don’t (yet) understand how to be a good neighbor in a big city. The resulting confrontation just solidifies this opinion.

  42. hotsauceinmybag*

    OP- heed Alison’s advice and take this as a lesson learned. And thankfully one learned early in your career. The CEO’s wife may very well have been rude- maybe she’d already asked 1 or 2 people to give up their seat for her dad and been told no or ignored. Maybe she was already tired and this was an extra hassle and that exasperation came across too clearly when she spoke to you. Who knows. But no one is (should be) above common courtesy-and while you may have been annoyed at having to do so, standing for the duration of your ride would’ve likely been a lot less arduous for you than for her father (who I’m assuming was an older person). Just think of what might’ve happened if you’d smiled at her, said sure and given up the seat. Standing for 10-20 minutes would be a small price to pay for a job you truly wanted. Take a deep breath OP and take Alison’s advice to heart.

    1. Artemesia*

      This caused me to reflect on how I asked for a seat in Italy for my Mom when the teenagers in the designated seats playing with their phones didn’t automatically hop up for the old lady with the cane obviously having trouble standing on the swaying bus. Abrupt I am sure. I remember rather glaring and saying ‘please’ in Italian and gesturing to her and the seat. (not that fluent in Italian) I am sure that felt ‘rude’ to those very rude people pretending to ignore her obvious need. I imagine the CEO’s wife was feeling frustrated and exasperated that people like the OP didn’t just automatically notice and offer a seat.

      1. Kate 2*

        As I asked another commenter, how do you know they were pretending?? I read on the bus and train, I also tend to be listening to music on ear buds or headphones at the same time. Unless you watch the entrance(s) every single time the bus/train stops and see who gets on you won’t know who gets on.

        If I noticed a person who had trouble standing get on, I would offer them my seat. But as I and others have said if a person who seems elderly got on the train/bus I wouldn’t offer my seat, I would wait to be asked, because we have been yelled at by people who just *looked* elderly.

  43. AnotherHRPro*

    OP, while I am sorry that you lost this job opportunity, I am hopeful that you will learn from this experience. While the comments may be difficult to read please save them and revisit them. I think what you are reading is a natural, unfiltered reaction to your letter. You will see things here that your friends and family won’t tell you – you where in the wrong and company had every right to not offer you the position you think you earned.

    As someone who deals with many employees and their issues, I completely understand why the CEO would have taken this encounter into consideration when deciding to hire you or not. When people show you who they really are, when their guard is down and they don’t think anyone (important) is watching, you need need to listen to that.

    You might do great work and maybe you could have been very successful in this position. But you had a lapse in character. This is important. I am not saying you are a bad person. But you made a mistake and in your letter, you are failing to understand that you lost this job. The CEO’s wife didn’t cause you to not get the job offer. You did, by how you treated a stranger on a train.

    Please learn from this. While I’m sure this is a tough pill to swallow, it is better to learn this lesson now than in 10+ years when the stakes are even higher. Good luck.

  44. Kyrielle*

    OP, I just wanted to thank you for writing in. I hope you will read the comments and take them to heart.

    But you have also done my sons a favor today. We use public transportation rarely, and they are still young; in their experience, they are the ones who get seats given up for them. They’ve seen me give up my seat, but I haven’t spelled out the rules behind that to them.

    I wonder how many people get those explained, versus have to pick them up by osmosis – but I will now be making sure to incorporate explaining it and doing it, explicitly.

    1. fposte*

      I didn’t grow up with busy public transportation, so I am thankful for Miss Manners–that’s how I learned.

      1. Liane*

        OP might want to give Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior a good read. (Maybe while riding public transportation?) If I recall correctly, both the original and updated (2005) cover Giving Up Seats.

    2. Purplesaurus*

      I didn’t grow up around public transit and am curious about seat etiquette for children. Not very young children, but those well past stroller age. Are people expected to give up seats to them, visa versa?

      I ask because on vacation to places with public transit, it seems the vast majority of people who got to sit were children who were pretty much dancing out of their seats anyway.

      1. Sal*

        In my experience, you often want to give a seat to a post-stroller child because it will keep them relatively contained and less likely to bang into your legs and go poking through your tote bag, for instance. Especially if sitting means their adult gets to bust out the snacks/juice boxes.

      2. DaisyGrrl*

        My personal rule of thumb is that any child under 12 or so should be offered a seat. While they may not be sitting still in the seat, they don’t necessarily have the coordination, reflexes, or experience to stay standing up if the bus comes to a sudden stop or moves in an unexpected way. At that point, bouncy kid becomes a projectile and could be badly injured. At least in a seat, they have a bit more protection from the unexpected.

        Curious to hear other opinions.

        1. nonegiven*

          MIL told me a story. It was in the early 50s, she had a 5 hour train ride, on her feet, holding an infant in one arm and a 6 yo by the hand. She couldn’t even hold onto anything, just try to brace herself as best she could. I doubt she asked for a seat but nobody offered her one.

        2. Turtle Candle*

          I was on a lot of busses/trains/trolleys across Europe as a kid that didn’t have anything for me to hold onto at the height I was–they had few or no vertical poles; adults held onto horizontal poles or straps that were far above my head, and even the handles on the backs of seats that some buses have were too high up for me. My mother and father tried to brace/balance me as best she could, and I really was trying to behave and hold still, but when you have nothing to hold onto and you’re small, it’s hard. At least once I did become a living projectile, coming clean off my feet when the bus jerked to an abrupt stop, and while I came out of the experience unharmed (and with a number of older Italian women cosseting me and feeding me sweets after they’d picked me up off the floor, so I was hardly too fussed) it could easily have ended much more poorly for me. So these days I do try to offer my seat to families with children too big to carry the whole way but too small to hold on for themselves.

        3. Kate 2*

          I have seen kids of all ages on the bus and train. The really small ones either sit in an adult’s lap, a car seat, or a stroller. Over the age of maybe three though, they mostly stand and hold a parent’s hand or a seat, grab bar, etc. Even in a sudden stop, which our transportation system has every day, I have never seen a kid lose their balance or get hurt.

          I did see one kid, eight or nine, refuse to listen to his mother and wouldn’t hold on to anything like his younger sibling did. The train came to a very sudden stop, he fell down hard, his sibling and mother didn’t, but he wasn’t hurt at all thankfully. His mother said “See, that’s why I told you to hold on.” After that I noticed, he held onto the grab bar.

      3. Government Worker*

        I’d say that you should give up your seat for a child who looks too young to be trusted to securely hold on and keep themselves upright if the vehicle lurches (or if there’s nothing for them to hold onto at a height they can reach). That coincides pretty well with the age where kids get over the toddler/preschooler defiance that means they may not follow safety-related instructions from their parents the first time.

        My kids are 3 and it’s definitely easier and safer to have them seated on the bus. We only go a couple of stops so I do decline offers for seats, but it would get precarious on a longer trip because they’re so easily distracted they’ll let go at a stop light and then fall when the bus starts moving again if I’m not completely vigilant. Plus they’re more likely to try to wander away from me and distract other people. But judging from my limited experience with older kids, I’d say you don’t need to give up a seat for a kid over 5 or 6 years old. And definitely not for kids approaching middle school.

        1. Purplesaurus*

          That all makes sense (as did what the other commentors said). Thanks for the insight.

      4. Al Lo*

        I nannied a 5-year-old boy in NYC, and always appreciated when someone gave him a seat, so that I could stand in front of him holding onto the strap. It kept him contained, kept him from poking at other people, let us ride face to face so that we could have a conversation or engage in some way, and helped to avoid that sudden 5-year-old infliction when their legs suddenly don’t work anymore. ;) It also gave me a seat if he started acting up, so I could sit with him on my lap and contain him.

        There were plenty of days when he stood; don’t get me wrong. We also talked about (and practiced, when applicable) giving up our seats for others, and we practiced being considerate to others and being aware of personal space, but when we rode for 35 minutes from Brooklyn to the UES every day, I appreciated the seat for him when it was available.

      5. Kate 2*

        Nope! The young have tons of energy, and don’t have to work. They stand if there aren’t seats, and if someone with a lot of bags or is elderly, disabled, pregnant, gets on it is expected they will stand (or their parents will make them stand).

        In regards to what Sal says, my experience aligns with yours, not theirs. I have never seen sitting down make a kid quieter or less energetic. Generally the seat in front of them just gets kicked. A standing kid though is able to bounce or dance to their heart’s content without bothering anyone.

      6. snorkellingfish*

        My take is that, in addition to what others have said, it’s polite to give up your seat if it lets a family with kids sit together. That’s less an issue in crowded-to-the-brim trains and buses, and more an issue on a bus or train where everyone’s spread out and there are empty seats here or there but none together.

    3. mrs__peel*

      I think that if you start to teach kids simple and age-appropriate etiquette pointers, a lot of the same “rules” end up being applicable to other situations they’ll encounter later. It pretty much all boils down to consideration for others.

      There’s a great kids’ book called “The Goops” that my little brother loved, which is all about manners. (He had a phase at age five where he would constantly go around asking “Is that good manners?” “Is that good manners?”, and really wanted to get it right!)

  45. Doubting Thomas*

    As somebody who takes public transportation through downtown and midtown Manhattan 6-7 days a week, I have Opinions on how to be a decent bus/subway rider.

    It’s a good idea a lot of the time to ignore people trying to talk to you on the subway. If it’s Saturday night and some unhinged guy is ranting about how Jesus told him that the Rapture is tomorrow, don’t engage. If you’re on a super packed rush hour train and someone’s getting passive-aggressive about you being in their space, keep a neutral face and turn your headphones up.

    But if you see someone who looks like they’re having a hard time getting around, offee them your seat, especially if they ask. That’s just common decency.

  46. DCGirl*

    I was brought up to give up my seat to the elderly and still do, despite the fact that I qualified for AARP a while ago and have a non-visible disability. But, I have to say, there are days when I’m resentfully thinking as I do so, “Dammit! Isn’t it someone else’s turn to be polite today?”

    1. AMPG*

      So true. I saw a woman get horribly mistreated on Metro a couple of years ago (a guy stomped on her foot and then told her SHE should apologize to HIM for getting upset about it) and I only wish I had had an opportunity to be the karma fairy like the CEO’s wife in this letter.

      1. CityMouse*

        Oh gosh this happened to be on a train once. A lady smacked me with her bag and then screamed at me for two stops about how rude I was to bump her.

        1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

          I was 9 months pregnant with my son and two teenagers pushed me over in their hurry to get by me and off a train. My husband caught me before I fell and was upset and made some comment to me about bad manners in kids these days. The mom of the teens had been following them, seen the interaction, heard my husbands comment and followed us for two blocks screaming at us for not thinking she taught her daughters manners. Seriously. I was crying, my husband was doing all that he could to hold on to his temper, and she’s screaming at us. A police office actually stepped in to find out what was going on. She walked away quickly with her daughters when the officer asked if I wanted to file an assault or harassment complaint. I still remember him smirking at me “I knew that would do the trick!”

            1. Laura*

              In NYC a woman coming into yoga class trod on my bare foot with her shod one and told me she didn’t “need my attitude” when I said OW loudly. I went full Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey. She scuttled away without saying another word.

  48. Fabulous*

    I don’t agree that the OP needed to give up her seat. While reading is not the greatest excuse (SO many people read on trains) maneuvering a bike to a new location would have been extremely difficult in a packed car. Especially with an armful of reading materials. I wouldn’t have moved either. That being said, she should have at the very least acknowledged the woman and explained why she couldn’t move. Should a hiring decision be influenced by this exchange? Maybe not. But there’s also no real indication that it was. Maybe the CEO just wasn’t as impressed by the OP as HR was.

    1. MuseumChick*

      I used to take public transportation in a major city. The common understanding was that if you had a bike you would stand (this has been mentioned by other people as well). So that was the first very slightly rude things she did, she then ignored a direct question by pretending not to hear, did not assess of the gentleman in question was someone who did need a seat (elderly, visibly pregnant, etc) that two very rude things she did (ignoring the questions and not given up her seat to someone we can assume from context is elderly), she then man an honest mistake with the tire hitting the woman’s clothing.

      1. Kate 2*

        It depends on the city. In mine there are special bike racks, so bike riders get to sit too. This might have been the case in the story.

  49. Rookie Manager*

    Oofft! This reminds me of the story that does the rounds every now and again about the man who cut someone up/stole a parking space/pushed someone out the way on the tube as they were in a hurry to get to their interview… only to find the person they had upset was the interviewer.

    I think enough people have piled on the OP so as someone with a disability, if I’m asking for a seat, or my travel buddy asks for a seat on my behalf, please know things are bad and I really need that seat. The usual social niceties say someone offers a seat and I, or a pregnant lady/older person, graciously accepts or declines. To ask can appear rude to some and admits a vulnerability, its not done lightly. In 12 year I don’t think I’ve asked fir a seat 5 times in total.

    I can only recall someone saying no once, it was at the start of a 40 minute journey, I felt so helpless and in so much pain I could’ve cried. Luckily a foreign student overheard and gave me their seat, we then had a nice chat about how great my city is. The person who said no got off at the first stop.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Amen. I was cane-bound for three years; I can count on one hand the number of times I actually asked anyone else to shift themselves to make way for me, and every time it was because I was already deep into borrowing against the next day’s spoons. I’m sure there are entitled people out there who would demand a spot the minute they feel a twinge, but I have a feeling they’re far outweighed by the people who don’t ask until they absolutely must.

    2. Kate 2*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you, but they might have had a disability too, and felt too embarrassed to explain.

  50. SoundtheBell92*

    I live in Iowa; my husband & I recently took a trip to Chicago and used the train to get everywhere. The first thing we explained to our 13 year old daughter that if you see an elderly person (or anyone asks you to for an elder) board the train, you give up your seat for them. Period. Common courtesy never goes out of style whether people are nice to you or not. Tough lesson to learn. Best of luck in your job search.

  51. Malibu Stacey*

    I mean . . . I get that you really wanted the permanent job offer and you really liked working there but whether this was fair or not is beside the point, imo.

    It’s a reasonable assumption that the CEO’s wife told her husband about what went down and it probably soured his opinion of you even if he had hired you – job satisfaction goes south pretty quickly if the CEO doesn’t like you.

  52. Colorado*

    “Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.” ― C.S. Lewis (though in this case, you were watched, very closely and you didn’t realize it)
    I bet if you knew who that woman was, you would have changed your tune dramatically, and that to me is almost a worse offense. Take the lesson and practice a little kindness outside of your self-absorption.

    1. LS*

      >> I bet if you knew who that woman was, you would have changed your tune dramatically <<

      Yes, yes, yes. This says it best. Because if that behaviour was okay, would you have done anything differently, knowing who she was?

  53. Atomic Orange*

    Ah… all those times I see people behaving badly and think: what goes around comes around. Not just empty words it seems.
    Op, take this experience as a lesson learned. It may seem unfair now bc you’ve put in a lot of hard work and feel like you’re not getting the reward that is rightfully yours. But character also plays a huge role in people’s success and happiness in life. As everyone has pointed out, your behaviour comes off as very self centered. Look at the situation from another perspective. You assume you’re the victim. But if you’re traveling with your dad, who is elderly/injured/ill/in pain, and a seemingly able bodied person your age rudely ignores you when you ask for a seat, whose bike is blocking and inconveniencing other people, AND ruins your coat without so much of an apology… would you reward this person with a job?

    1. Stella's Mom*

      +1 to this. It may not be as swift as this case seems to be in terms of the bad vibes returning to the LW, but if a person is “entitled” or “rude” or behaves very badly towards others or treats people horribly…. it does come back to them eventually in some form or another.

  54. Eh...*

    I am picturing the LW on a packed train, holding her bike with one hand, trapping shifting papers to read with the other, and trying to keep track of her briefcase/ bag/ phone.
    Approaching someone very obviously laden-down with things to ask for their seat is weird, oblivious, and extra-entitled. If asked politely, either an “I’m sorry I can’t” with an apologetic smile and perhaps some helpful redirection to the reserved section, or getting up with a vaguely “Seriously?” face as the items were juggled would have been the two choices.
    If it was framed as a demand, rather than a request, I would be very annoyed the person didn’t see all of the things I was balancing and ask a less burdened person, and may ask the person next to me if they would mind getting up instead since “I’m afraid I’m going to drop things and make a mess.”
    And if that demand was rudely barked, I would have thought the person was possibly a psycho, and not replied at all. I probably would have gotten up and given my seat anyway because you never know who’s going to be crazy and flip out, but it likely would have been done with a cold and inconvenienced glare, and while berating myself internally for being a pushover. Then I would have spent the next week wondering why I can’t stand up for myself and thinking how being polite means getting taken advantage of.
    Or I may pretend to not have heard the person and ignore them since it’s resisting without confrontation.
    All in all, the LW’s biggest crime was not saying something to politely explain why she couldn’t get up if she was not intending to, though not saying something could be understandable depending on the behavior of the woman.
    It’s not ideal, but I do get it.

    1. Mr Rogers*

      When you imagine the LW managing all of those items (the bike, the papers, etc), that is why it was honestly rude of the LW to settle into a packed train like it was their living room at home. If you’re (the general you) so burdened with all your stuff scattered around you and loosely held in your arms and can’t be ready to move around with a moment’s notice, you’re being an inconvenience to everyone around you. This isn’t a long distance train, where you assume you’ll be sitting for hours at a time. They should have been standing, ready to move their bike when necessary, stopping it from hitting everyone with every turn of the train (which I can practically guarantee it was doing). People who don’t realize they need to keep their things tidy, close to their person, and easily managed in a public space always seem 1. very disorganized at best and 2. incredibly entitled to those public spaces at worst.

      Anyway, this is a plug for being considerate of your fellow passengers on public transportation I suppose! If it would be an enormous burden to ask you to move on a train (assuming you are fully able-bodied), then you’re not doing the “consideration” portion correctly.

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yes, exactly. Public transportation is not your living room. If you treat it like it is, then you’re the problem.

    2. Colette*

      Well, she chose those burdens. Most people have bags to manage, and many people pull something out of the bag (phone, book, etc.), so the only thing that she had that was out of the ordinary was the bike – and managing that would be easier when standing. “I want to read” isn’t a valid reason for preventing someone who needs a seat from using it, nor is “I brought too much stuff with me”. If she couldn’t manage that stuff standing, she shouldn’t have brought it. Yeah, maybe she wouldn’t have been able to read, but that’s not a good reason to cause someone else pain.

    3. Observer*

      If she was as scattered as you describe, that would another strike. And this would not just be bout character, but also judgement. I mean, what sensible person is reading loose papers on a crowded train, while ALSO dealing with a bike, bags and other stuff? That’s just so not sensible that I’d wonder if the person is capable of planning and exercising good judgement when not being directed.

      Also, not answering was ONE of the things the OP did equivocally wrong. The other was not apologizing for greasing up the woman’s coat.

  55. CoffeeCoffeeCoffee*

    Allison, your response was spot-on, but I think the headlining is a little misleading. It doesn’t sound like the CEO’s wife ruined your chances, LW, it sounds like you kind of ruined your own. We recently had two interns who graduated from our program, one was technically great at his job but an ass in public and was unbearably rude to a waitress at a corporate lunch; the other does acceptable design work but is a pleasant person to be around and she’s the one we hired – how you’re perceived in public really matters. I can teach a new employee all sorts of technical skills, but I can’t teach them to be a nice human being.

    1. MuseumChick*

      This is a good point. The LW rude/inconsiderate behavior (may have) ruined her chances at a job, not the CEO’s wife.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I usually don’t use LWs’ email subject lines as the post headlines here (or half of them would be headlines like “question for you”), but in this case I did because I thought it summed up the LW’s perspective accurately.

      2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I’m not sure whether I should be proud or not that you’ve used my email headline in every question of mine that you’ve answered ;)

        (They’re not THAT many, I promise!)

    3. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I think that she often takes the headline from the LW’s email subject, or at least tries to frame the summary the way the LW does.

  56. Bye Academia*

    One thing I haven’t seen people talk about yet is this part of your letter:

    I was given some feedback about the skills that I have to develop but that was all.

    You glossed right over this, but it’s really important. What feedback were you given? Was it related to specific work skills or interpersonal skills? Feedback after a job interview is a huge kindness that most interviewers don’t bother with. It shows that they do value you and want you to improve, and also provides you with potentially clear information about why you didn’t get the job. Could it have been about the bike incident and the bike incident alone? Maybe, but the fact that they told you areas to improve means it could have been more than that.

    I don’t have anything new to add to the discussion of public transportation etiquette, but I strongly agree that you should have given up the seat, or at least been kinder in your refusal. Perhaps being someone who looks able-bodied but has trouble standing has made me more aware that people want seats for more than convenience or comfort.

    In general, I think this is a good lesson in self-awareness. Your company doesn’t care about getting you the job, they care about improving themselves as a company upon your hire. Sure, that can mean the bottom line, but it can also mean making the office a nice place to be, providing new camaraderie, etc. Even if all this feels harsh now and the rejection sucks, I really hope you will take it to heart (both the bike incident and the feedback from your interview) for the future. Your job and your life will go smoother with a little more consideration for other people.

    1. Anon Anon*

      I wondered the same thing. I also wonder if perhaps the incident on the train may have reinforced other feedback that the CEO received. Being a good colleague is important, and if potential future colleagues expressed any sort of concern about the OP’s behavior in general, then I could definitely see this sort of incident reinforcing any concerns that a CEO had.

    2. Allypopx*

      I was really confused why the OP was so sure this incident was why they didn’t get the job when the interviewers gave them direct feedback. That seems like trying to pass the blame when you’ve been given an answer – which like you say, is rare!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Oh good catch.
      If they were hard skills OP needed to do the job, then she might not have had the job in the bag after all, and the train incident was the tipping point.

      Say you had two candidates and both were equally lacking in a hard skill you can train for, but you can only choose one. Who would you pick–the one who snapped at your receptionist (or whatever), or the person who was polite to her? It’s much harder to train someone how to get along with other people than how to use your software.

    4. JamieS*

      I very strongly suspect the lacking skills was the actual primary reason for rejection. Blaming the wife comes across to me as a deflection so OP doesn’t have to admit to being lacking but who knows? Maybe I’m off base and OP really did have it in the bag before the incident.

  57. NEW YEAR, NEW ME*

    It’s not so much the fact that you turn down her request for giving up your seat, but it’s also the fact that you didn’t acknowledge and offer to make it right with your bike messing up her coat. Granted not every person you encounter will be someone of this direct relation, but your actions give off first impressions. A negative wrong is difficult, even downright impossible, to fix.

    When I started out at a publishing company, there was a colleague similar to me who was let go within a month’s time. The rumor was that the publisher accidently bumped into her, and she, not realizing who he was, rolled her eyes at him.

  58. Nancy*

    I completely agree with Alison on this one. In fact, I was hoping that would be her reaction. However, I can’t help, but look at myself and think about times where I might not have been having my “best” day and might have been rude or at the very least, come across as rude. The person could be a complete stranger and I could not be in the market for a job at that point, but according to this letter, those actions could come back on me later. While the LW doesn’t state that they were having a bad day or that they were having a personal troubles, I wonder what the response would be if so.
    For example, about two years ago, I was going through the death of both my grandfathers within a 3 month period, my brother in ICU and my mom having a blood clot. While most people around me said they didn’t notice a change, I realized later that I was not in a great place and sought help. However, I’m sure during that time, my patience and tone with people may have been short.

    I guess the same response it warranted. If I were to even try to turn things around, I would say, I wouldn’t want to work for an employer who would not give the benefit of the doubt and consider that people have bad days or bad times. But, again, in employment, you don’t really have time for a lot of context.

    1. Mr Rogers*

      While I absolutely agree people should get the benefit of the doubt, I do want to suggest that there’s a difference between not getting hired, and getting fired. I’m sure it seems like a personal slight to the LW to not get hired, but it doesn’t say anything bad about an employer if they go with one of their other finalists for a combination of reasons (as we don’t know this was the only reason!), as they only have so much information to work with. Someone has to get hired and someone has to lose out, after all, and the other candidate who likely performed well and was perfectly lovely in their interactions (and, if we want to craft a sympathetic narrative for them too, could have done that while also struggling with hard times) is just as deserving of this happy ending. But if they fired the LW over this, that would definitely be different and more unfair along the lines of what you’re suggesting here.

      1. Nancy*

        Agreed, professionally, impressions count. I always try to see the Pollyanna point of view on things, so I say the LW should take it as a life lesson and try to think of it as fate. It just wasn’t meant to be.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think it’s a lot less likely that someone would remember an unpleasant encounter from two years ago and judge you on that now. The OP here ran into the person the very next day.

      That being said, yes it’s possible that something you did when you were young and dumb or having a bad day might come back to haunt you. It sucks, but that’s life.

    3. Chriama*

      But I mean, that goes both ways right? You’re having a bad time dealing with some unexpected things in life. You don’t know what other people are going through. I think it’s going a little too far to call OP’s entire moral character into question, but it’s very clear that she acted badly. And sometimes, even when those bad actions have sympathetic explanations, they still affect us negatively.

    4. Natalie*

      I just don’t see how this is something that can be avoided if someone is going to ever interact with other people. Yes, you might be having a terrible day and snappish with the barista and then find out later they are your next door neighbor or something. So be it. How else are we supposed to gather information about what people are like besides their behavior?

    5. fposte*

      I do assume that people have bad days or bad times. But if they’re in the throes of something that means they are inconsiderate to the vulnerable when they feel there’s no danger of consequence, that’s a problem for me; whether that approach is temporary or permanent, I don’t know, but if it’s happening right now it’s relevant to my hiring question either way. If a person is under enough stress to make them be rude to people they encounter on the train, it’s reasonable for me to be concerned they’ll be rude to people in the workplace.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah. To me this is liking finding out that the guy I’m on a date with stiffed the waitress on a tip. It would completely sour my opinion of him and I honestly wouldn’t go on a second date.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      Had OP taken your advice–assume that the woman asked brusquely because she was exhausted and stressed and worried about her father rather than entitled and rude–this might have had a different outcome.

      Though, even if OP is correct that this incident tipped the decision on the job offer (and I’m dubious) it’s quite possible it perfectly embodied an existing impression of poor interpersonal skills.

  59. Elizabeth West*

    Ouch.

    Haven’t read all the comments so I don’t know if you’ve responded in them, OP, but I hope you can move on from this in a constructive way. We all do things that aren’t so great; however, we can only go forward, not back.

    I’d probably offer to pay for the dry cleaning if I were you, but I would do it without expecting any kind of reconsideration for the job. I’m afraid that’s long gone. :(

  60. Leatherwings*

    In this case an “Oh my gosh, I’m sorry I would but I’m completely swamped with work. If you can’t find another seat please come back and ask though” would’ve been preferable to ignoring the person. But ignoring someone who asks for a seat is pretty bad.

    I take public transit too, OP, so I know how easy it is to just be in your own bubble and get annoyed at other people around you; especially when you’re busy yourself. I know I’m not always the most polite on public transit so I think it’s important for everyone to take this as a note to treat EVERYONE around you better. The adage that you never know who’s watching is definitely true.

  61. Jbelly*

    OP, I think many of the comments are too harsh. I’m sorry you lost this opportunity. Keep in mind that you’ve got some great interviewing experience now. You have also learned how political some decisions in business can be and how optics often matter more than facts. Given the CEO’s wife’s rudeness on the train, and that she may be a regular fixture at her husband’s company, you might consider this as dodging a bullet (though it may not seem that way now). FWIW, I’ve always struggled with finding the right boundaries to set. A woman on a train belligerently demanding I give up my seat for her father? That a hard call. The father motioning that he’d like to sit, looking unstable on his feet, or just simply looking fragile? I’d be up in a second.

    Good luck with your job search!

    1. Chatterby*

      I agree, if she was as-described and truly rude, would you really want to work there if the CEO allows business to be influenced by his demanding wife (who drops in during the work day for some reason)?

      1. fposte*

        Does that mean you think the behavior is okay, or it only should have been counted if it had involved an interviewer? (It also sounds like you’re finding the wife going to her husband’s workplace weird, when that’s something spouses do all the time.)

      2. Oryx*

        …. She’s not allowed to visit her husband ever? That seems like you’re looking for a reason to excuse the OP’s behavior and blame the wife.

    2. Leatherwings*

      See, asking for a seat for an elderly person isn’t rude though. It’s train etiquette that it’s okay to ask for a seat if you need one, and it’s expected that if you don’t need a seat and someone around you does you stand up. Continuing to sit on a crowded train is annoying, flat out ignoring someone is worse.

      Like, I’m sure the woman could’ve asked more nicely, but when someone with a bike and a ton of shit with them is taking a seat an older person needs… I kind of understand being annoyed.

      1. Allison*

        “See, asking for a seat for an elderly person isn’t rude though. It’s train etiquette that it’s okay to ask for a seat if you need one, and it’s expected that if you don’t need a seat and someone around you does you stand up.”

        Right. I do think it’s best to be pleasant when making these requests, saying “excuse me, could my father sit there?” is better than saying “EXCUSE ME, my father needs that seat!” but we don’t know how exactly she asked, and if your father needs to sit down and no one offers, it can definitely put a generally nice person in a sour mood.

      2. Jbelly*

        The act of asking for the seat isn’t rude. I never wrote that it was. The manner in which it was “requested” was rude.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          But the example you gave is one that only works if you make eye contact with everyone on the train, so that they can pantomime their request for the seat. And it’s usual for people on crowded public transit to NOT be making eye contact. There’s nothing rude about that–but it means that people who might need your seat (or to alert you that you seem to have dropped your wallet, or to convey any other information) need to tap you on the shoulder, interrupting whatever you’re doing, and then ask.

          1. Jbelly*

            I wrote that the act of asking isn’t rude. That *can* involve tapping someone on the shoulder who is occupied to ask. I don’t know why I would need to provide EVERY example under the sun. It is the MANNER, not the action.

      1. Jbelly*

        Asking someone for something in a rude manner? That’s not an ask, it’s a demand with a question mark at the end. I’m comfortable with my word choice to describe such a “request” as belligerent.

  62. Eh...*

    The LW should have addressed the woman in the elevator openly and apologized then.
    “I think you were on the train with me earlier? Good. I didn’t have time to in the moment, but I wanted to apologize for marring your coat. I hope it isn’t too bad?” and then chatting pleasantly about your relief about running into her, and that it’s a nice coat, and hasn’t it been chilly lately? etc..
    Not saying anything implies the LW knew her behavior on the train was poor and she’s trying to hide it, which would make the woman feel vindicated in tattling.

    1. LawBee*

      eesh, that opens the door for “Yes, you ignored me when I asked if you could give up your seat for my elderly father.”

      1. Oryx*

        I’d rather be remembered as the person who apologized for my rude behavior than letting my bad behavior be the only memorable thing about me.

      2. AthenaC*

        True, but OP could still have attempted to salvage the situation by something like, “Yes I did and I apologize; I had no right to take my day out on you.” Best case scenario, OP could have smoothed it over and perhaps gotten the job; worst case scenario. OP is in the same situation but at least did the right thing after the fact.

  63. The Strand*

    Feel that it is important to add this, as I read through the comments:

    “96% of people with chronic medical conditions live with a condition that is invisible. These people do not use a cane or any assistive device and act as if they didn’t have a medical condition. About 25% of them have some type of activity limitation, ranging from mild to severe; the remaining 75% are not disabled by their chronic conditions. ”

    Please don’t assume that the young, seemingly able-bodied person in the bus seat or the disabled parking space doesn’t deserve to be there just because they have no cane, wheelchair, or distinctive walk. Some of the comments remind me of the older man who started yelling at a younger woman who had taken a Parking for Veterans spot, because he couldn’t believe that she was a military veteran.

    Some of the people around you with disabilities, you would never, ever know!

    1. fposte*

      To be fair, a lot of those disabilities don’t make you more in need of a seat, though; we’re doubtless talking about a lot of anxiety, depression, etc.

    2. Grapey*

      This is true in general, but in this specific case OP was riding with a bike. They’re generally assumed to be using it again once they’re off the train and able bodied enough to do so.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Yep. Additionally, someone who is taking up seat space AND bike space on a crowded train is taking up too much space.

        And it would’ve been fine to decline too, but ignoring is not okay.

        1. Grapey*

          Now I won’t agree with someone sitting on a crowded train is taking up too much space. People standing when they COULD sit (on an almost but not overly packed train) just reduces flow for other people walking through.

          I give people with bikes the same leeway I do with those that have baby strollers. They’re both annoying to deal with, but they’re necessary for that person and public transit isn’t my own personal coach, so I suck it up.

      2. Schmitt*

        I have seen this a lot in this thread, and will finally just note that I can bike, but not walk or stand for long periods of time. Totally different weight distribution.

        1. Laura*

          Yes, but could you carry a bike through a station. down steps, onto a train? Everyone seems to be forgetting that.

      3. Kate 2*

        But being able to do one thing doesn’t mean you can do another thing, especially if, like I and many people do, your condition changes in severity from day to day. On a bad day I can’t sit upright for hours. Thank goodness those are really rare! On a good day I am almost like anyone else. Even on a good day though, there are certain things I shouldn’t do if I don’t want to be sick, like bend over or turn my head quickly. As Schmitt points out below, riding a bike (almost like sitting) and standing for a long period of time are two completely different physical actions.

        Even if you see someone with a bike, or a tennis racket, or whatever, they might still be disabled. If they don’t give up their seat when asked, please just believe them, everyone, and don’t ask what their disability is.

        It might be a good idea too, when asking for a seat, to ask in general, not a specific person who then has to give way or out themselves and face criticism and judgment if they have an invisible disability. Plus that way you won’t have to go down the line if one person refuses.

  64. LeisureSuitLarry*

    I’m missing something here. It seems like a pretty significant leap in logic for the LW to assume that his interaction with the CEO’s wife is the reason he didn’t get the job. He’s pretty sure she recognized him, but did she? She didn’t say anything. There are dozens of other reasons why LW might not have gotten the job. Maybe there was an even better candidate – better as in “better at the work” not “better mannered” or whatever. Maybe his/her co-workers during training didn’t like the LW. In addition to all of that, Recruiting rarely gets the reasons a candidate was rejected. They might get some feedback, but I’ve usually only gotten crap feedback from recruiting (ex. learn PowerPoint after a 15 year career of making and giving presentations using PowerPoint).

    It’s just too much of a leap for me to buy that the CEO’s wife had a whole lot to do with not getting the job.

    1. MicroManagered*

      Ehhhh… I think it has an equal chance of being true or untrue. Like, imagine CEO’s wife has this experience, where she asks someone on the train to give up their seat for her dad, gets IGNORED, and then the person stains her coat with bike grease or whatever. She goes home, tells CEO, and they have a whole “What is WRONG with people?!” conversation. Then, by pure chance, she runs into the offender in the elevator! I could totally imagine a world where she tells her husband “You’ll never believe who works here!” and that somehow affects the permanent-job decision.

      It’s equally likely that OP was never gonna get the job for reasons that have nothing to do with the train incident. There’s just no way to know.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        I agree that it may be another issue. I’d truly take to heart what they gave in the feedback about why the job wasn’t offered, AND that this may have been a mistreatment of someone close to the CEO issue too. Both could be it, and honestly both can be fixed.

      1. LeisureSuitLarry*

        It certainly is, and it’s amazing to me how often I’m able to get it as a username – although that’s not a problem here where I don’t have to log in.

  65. Yet Even Another Alison*

    I read it someone, and it likely was advice that Alison was stating on a previous post….you are being paid to not only do your work but to get along with others. The fact that the OP stated the incident had nothing to do with their ability to perform the job, clearly that type of thinking will limit career opportunities. Hopefully the OP will take these comments to heart.

  66. Lady Phoenix*

    Just cause you’re not sitting in the office facing the HR doesn’t mean that the interview process hasn’t started. The moment you step out of your house, you had best be on your good behavior, cause you never know if the interviewer is getting ready alongside you.

    That means no reckless driving (cause if you cut off HR, get a ticket, or get a case of road rage; it’s game over), no being an ass on public transit, and treating EVERYONE with respect.

    You were a jerk, and the CEO’s wife got firsthand experience with it and decided “I don’t want a client to deal with this jerk.”

    Also, never mess with the ceo’s family, some may be working in the conpany and others may just be seeing the company’s wellbeing from a more distant POV.

  67. animaniactoo*

    OP, if you make it this far down, I think you need to re-examine how you interact with the world. The reasons behind assignments and the concept of fairness and all of it. You quite genuinely seem to have a very shaky grasp on common courtesy and if so, it’s hampering your ability to make choices that show that you respect other people basically for being people and having needs that may either be equal to or exceed your own when general guidelines for the situation fail.

    You note that you were in a regular seat, not a disabled seat, and that was a primary reason for your decision not to give up your seat. Okay – but what if there are disabled people in all of the disabled seats? From that standpoint, is it fair to the next disabled person to have to stand because all the disabled seats are filled? From a “best possible solution” viewpoint, what can you as someone who is part of the public around, available to notice and do something, do?

    Likewise – ignoring the request. It’s not normal to ignore a request. No matter how rudely phrased. This is so outside common courtesy that it was probably noticed over and above everything else. If we were having a person to person conversation, I would ask you what you think ignoring them communicates to them. How it is received, and what it says about you and them. Since we’re not, I will tell you straight that ignoring someone is equivalently taken as saying that they don’t matter. At all. They are not even worthy of being noticed. Which is a very rude and disrespectful way to think about or treat others. Everyone is worthy of note and being responded to for the simple fact that they exist. Think about that for awhile… people matter to each other. Part of the common courtesy is treating them as if they matter because even if they don’t matter to us at that moment… they DO matter to other people. And we want ourselves and our loved ones to be treated as if we matter. So we do this for each other as an extension that comes back around to us in our time of need, whatever that need may be. This is what you ran up against… the person you ignored mattered to someone else. And in the end, that mattered to you.

    So… take a step back and think through how you balance your needs against others, particularly in a public space, and particularly when you don’t actually know the other person – they are just someone who is a human in the same space that you are in.

    Final thought: You would probably be best if you started thinking about this not as if the CEO’s wife ruined the opportunity for you, but rather that you unintentionally ruined the opportunity for yourself. The world of your behavior outside of work didn’t matter to work… until it met work. But you had the choice of how to act outside of work, and had you acted differently… there would have been nothing for her to report on. That was what was in your power at the time. It came back to bite you that you did not handle it differently. To be fair, that’s happened to a lot of us. The key is to learn from it so that you can hopefully avoid doing it in the future. Which does not necessarily mean hopping right up and giving the seat. But it does mean replying (if you can’t/won’t) “I’m so sorry, I need to sit because ______” and maybe turning to someone else near you and asking if they can give up their seat. And apologizing sincerely and immediately when your bike makes contact with someone’s coat.

    1. MicroManagered*

      “This is what you ran up against… the person you ignored mattered to someone else. And in the end, that mattered to you.”

      I had to pause and reread this sentence about 4x before moving on because it’s so eloquently stated and so true.

  68. Anonymous Poster*

    I ride the DC metro many days, and I understand completely the idea of ignoring people trying to talk to you on the subway. All to often I’m getting a sob story about someone being evicted or trying to ‘sell’ me a tissue and getting angry/in my face when I ignore them, or rude (and crude) comments. It’s not a good thing that I ignore most people on the metro, but I do.

    In this instance I doubt I would have, but who knows. In the end, I’d have to mark this up to a learning experience. This is a particular instance where it would have paid to listen, and unfortunately there were some higher consequences attached than most people experience when ignoring people on the subway.

    It really stinks that it happened this way, but hopefully you’ll find another position that’s also awesome, land on your feet, and be a bit more cognizant in the future.

    My work also has a final CEO interview that’s generally a rubber stamp. I asked her about it, and she said she’s very concerned about making sure that people are a cultural fit. This isn’t a tech firm or anything, so it’s not that type of culture she’s concerned with, but more concerned about being able to satisfy our customers, get the work done, and not be a gossip. I think Katie the Fed has talked before about cultural fit and how important it can be, and I’ve seen this kind of interview be part of ensuring the company’s culture and the new hire won’t clash. Perhaps that was happening here, but it’s also wise to never really think of a ‘rubber stamp’ interview with a high ranking official in a company as really just a rubber stamp.

    1. ki8or67*

      “It’s not a good thing that I ignore most people on the metro, but I do.”

      If it preserves your sanity to ignore the subway crazies it is absolutely a good and healthy thing to do, and you have every right to tell off anyone who tries to say otherwise.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Nah, ignoring requests for seats from those who need it is not okay and you do not have the right to tell anyone off who says otherwise. If someone told me off for requesting a seat when I was on crutches two months ago that would’ve been totally unacceptable. Other than the fact that the woman was a little rude, this is no different.

        1. LawBee*

          My hot take that no one wants: OP wasn’t going to get the job anyway even if HR said she was. Her total lack of empathy on the train, the coat issue (which I suspect, possibly uncharitably, was less accidental than told), and the fact that at no point in the letter does she acknowledge her own rudeness, plus the general tone of the first couple of paragraphs – all of this gave me a picture of someone who probably wasn’t great to work with.

          Interns are scrutinized not only for work product, but office compatibility. HR wouldn’t have a clue about that – it’s not their job. But I guarantee that when the interns were discussed at the end of the program, whether the OP would fit the company’s culture was a topic of concern.

          It is entirely possible that the CEO’s wife had nothing to do with it, and the OP was just a blip in her day.

          2. neverjaunty*

            It may not even be that the OP came across as rude in the interview, but she did kind of bury the lede with the comment about skills feedback.

    2. Chriama*

      OP ignored the request *after* it was made. Are you saying if someone made that request you would ignore it, or that as soon as people start speaking to you you ignore them and therefore don’t ever actually hear the request? If the former, I think that’s problematic for all the reasons other commenters have noted. If that latter, I don’t think it applies to OP’s situation because he did hear the request, and chose to ignore it knowingly. That’s different from not hearing someone.

    3. Allison*

      “I ride the DC metro many days, and I understand completely the idea of ignoring people trying to talk to you on the subway. All to often I’m getting a sob story about someone being evicted or trying to ‘sell’ me a tissue and getting angry/in my face when I ignore them, or rude (and crude) comments. It’s not a good thing that I ignore most people on the metro, but I do.”

      That’s fair, but I can usually tell the difference between someone who’s probably asking for a seat and someone who’s trying to get something else from me.

      1. Anonymous Poster*

        I think you’re right, normally I can tell if someone else needs it. Full disclosure, I’m usually wearing headphones and playing a game or reading a book on my phone, which adds to my “don’t-talk-to-me” vibe. I’d imagine if someone needed the seat they’d tap my shoulder or something, which has happened once or twice.

        The point for the letter writer isn’t how to be aware or something, though, but that someone asked and unless you had a medical reason to say you can’t move, then you probably should let someone else sit down. And that lesson looks like it was learned in a rather harsh way with some nasty consequences. But, if the letter writer is as hard working as they say they are, they should be fine and hopefully not have to learn this lesson with even harsher consequences!

        Side note, funniest experience I’ve had on the metro, was overhearing this conversation
        Lady sits down to another one on the metro and looks at her for a solid 5 seconds, before saying, “Excuse me, but are you Thai?”
        Lady #2: “Yes, I am.”
        Lady #1: “Oh, really?!? I just LOVE Siamese cats!”
        Lady #2: “Yes, they are nice.”
        Lady #1: “They ARE, that’s why I have twelve!”
        Lady #2: “Wow, why so many?”
        Lady #1 skips a few beats. Then: “Let me tell you about each one…”
        I saw Lady #2’s eyes unfocus for the next half hour as Lady #1 talked at her. I really struggled not to burst out laughing at the exchange. Afterwards I saw Lady #2 douse herself with perfume, I can only imagine the one lady really smelled… fascinating.

    4. SarahKay*

      I always feel that a ‘rubber stamp’ interview doesn’t exactly need to be ‘passed’ – but it can most certainly be failed! Your best bet is to take it seriously – show up on time, smartly dressed, ready to talk about yourself, your work, or the company. If it turns out to be nothing more than a handshake and a “Nice to meet you” from the CEO – well, great, that was easy and you’ve left a good impression. If it turns out to be a serious interview, you’re not left floundering and wrong-footed.

  69. AlaskaKT*

    As a person with an invisible illness, I would have had some snark for anyone ignoring my request for a seat when I needed one.

    That said, OP, you should graciously accept that you will not be getting this job. I agree that you could offer to pay for the coat because it’s the right thing to do, but don’t use it as an ‘in’ to complain about not getting the job. Send a thank you note to everyone involved in the interview process and move on in your job search. Regardless of who was rude first, or what reasons you didn’t want to give up your seat, your response of just ignoring this woman and her father was not socially acceptable and this is the consequences for that.

    This is a good reminder that you never have the job until you actually have the job.

  70. Temperance*

    I think that plenty of people have touched on the offering vs. not offering of a seat. I’m young and healthy looking, but I can’t stand on the train for 45 minutes. I’ve had a few unpleasant interactions where someone has “asked for” (demanded) my seat, and I say something like “i’m sorry, but I can’t” and get crap attitude in return. So I definitely get the temptation not to respond. To be totally honest, I almost never acknowledge people when I’m out walking around/on public transit.

    I don’t think there’s anything you can do to salvage the situation, LW. Yes, you should have offered cash to pay for the cleaning bill for her coat, but that’s in the past.

    1. CityMouse*

      I think the issue is that OP had a bike though. So the chances of OP having some kind of disability were pretty low, perhaps who the wife asked OP. She had a solid reason to assume she was able bodied.

    2. Chriama*

      Temperance, have you ever tried responding with something like “I’m sorry, I have a medical condition so I can’t.” It won’t deter the real jerks, but it might come across better than an outright refusal with no context to the more moderate people.

      1. Temperance*

        I personally don’t feel like I have to share details of my medical history with a random stranger who already came at me from an adversarial place. They’ve already decided that they deserve my seat more than I do. I’ve learned that when you don’t look disabled or sick, people just assume that you’re healthy regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

        I learned this the hard way when SEPTA went on strike last fall, and I had to beg their customer service for an accommodation because I couldn’t stand in a line for 45+ minutes waiting to get on a train.

        1. Chriama*

          I mean, you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to. But in the same way you feel their approach so adversarial they might see a seemingly able-bodied person in a seat that they desperately feel they need. I’m just saying that a contextual refusal often goes down a lot better than a flat “no”.

  71. ki8or67*

    Equal parts amused and horrified at all the judgmental remarks on OP’s behavior based on them not giving up a seat they had first and therefore was entitled to give up or not give up entirely of their own free will.

    Without actually knowing how the encounter went or being there, it’s only fair that OP’s remark about the request being made “rather rudely” be taken at face value. Encounters with crazies on the subway are no rare thing and ignoring them is a totally valid strategy. I’d certainly be tempted not to give up a seat to someone who walked up to me and rudely demanded I give up the seat as opposed to asking politely.

    Frankly, I’d consider this a dodged bullet. If this woman has ties to the company and if she’s as rude as claimed to be when making requests in public just think of what you’d have to deal with if you had to do business with her.

    1. Leatherwings*

      That’s just not how trains work though – public transit seats are first come first served UNTIL someone who needs the seat comes along.

      The woman should’ve been nicer in asking for sure, but ignoring the request for a seat from an elderly person is the height of public transit rudeness.

      1. ki8or67*

        If they can’t ask be bothered to ask politely, then you’re under no obligation to do anything for them. One comment above mentioned they moved for an old woman who came onto the train and said “well, are you going to give me your f**king seat or what?”. That’s a much more black and white situation; I would have just sat and smiled back at her and enjoyed the schadenfreude. It’s one thing to “be the better person” in situations like this, but I also don’t believe in rewarding bad manners!

        As for OP’s specific situation, without knowing what actually transpired, of course it’s possible they totally misjudged or overreacted and saw her request as rude when she was trying to be polite (tone of voice can easily sound like you’re expressing an emotion you’re not when you’re tired or stressed). Normally speaking, yes, in situations like that you probably should bite your tongue and err on the side of caution and politeness with such a request, but when someone’s REALLY rude to you in demanding a seat as in they’re cursing at you, go ahead and stay seated! Without actually being told the exact way the request was worded, it’s very hard to judge for sure how rude “rather rudely” actually was with respect to ignoring or refusing the seat request because “rather rudely” is a bit vague.

        OP felt offended by the way she made the request – whether or not it was justified or was an overreaction on his part it’s impossible to judge accurately without knowing exactly how the wording was made or what it was that made it sound “rather rude”. Either way, bad luck, the job’s a lost cause.

        1. Leatherwings*

          “If they can’t ask be bothered to ask politely, then you’re under no obligation to do anything for them.”

          I don’t agree. Someone who needs a seat needs it for their health, and the demand that everyone be perfectly polite is ridiculous.

          Should someone be polite? Of course! But OP should’ve had the same social obligation and at least acknowledged the person making the request.

          This sounds a lot like “if they’re not polite, I don’t have to be either” and that’s just not a nice way to conduct yourself in public.

        2. Liane*

          “If they can’t ask be bothered to ask politely, then you’re under no obligation to do anything for them.”

          I really, really, really wish this was how customer service worked. I’ve worked with a lot of customers (and even a few managers/supervisors) I would have ignored, refused to help, or asked to leave if that was acceptable.

        3. SarahTheEntwife*

          It seems somewhat unfair to the father here to make his seat contingent on the behavior of his daughter. For all I know, he thinks he’s too important to talk to the hoi polloi on the bus and makes his daughter do it, but it seems like there’s at least as good a chance that he was kind of embarrassed by the rudeness himself, or that what the LW saw as rudeness was a straightforward, unapologetic request.

        4. Jessie the First (or second)*

          Here, the allegedly rude person was the daughter of the man who needed the seat. Punishing the father by making him stand because the daughter didn’t ask you nicely enough would be obnoxious.

          Also, I give lots of leeway to people who seem rude to me when asking for a seat. I could certainly punish them for not asking nicely, but I choose instead to assume they are frazzled because the world is not built for disabled people and it is hard to get around; by the time they get to the train, who knows what they have been through. It is no skin of my back to forgive and give them a seat that they need and I don’t.

          The world is a nicer place if you make an effort to be nice yourself, basically.

        5. Ramona Flowers*

          “One comment above mentioned they moved for an old woman who came onto the train and said “well, are you going to give me your f**king seat or what?”.

          No they didn’t. That was a joke someone posted.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      “Equal parts amused and horrified at all the judgmental remarks on OP’s behavior based on them not giving up a seat they had first and therefore was entitled to give up or not give up entirely of their own free will.”

      OP has the right to ignore the request. Other people have the right to decide that it was a rude thing to do. I think it was rude and it makes me question how OP treats others.

      1. MuseumChick*

        This. The LW had every right to ignore accepted social norms and manners of riding a train. Other people are well within their rights that find that rude and self-centered and the CEO has ever right to have concerns about the LW’s character. How will the LW react when a subordinate doesn’t ask for something in the exact right tone? If the LW perceive a colleague as being rude will it start a passive-aggressive war between them? If the LW (who is able-bodied) isn’t willing to move so an elderly man can haver her seat, what other social convention/accepted standards of politeness is she willing to break? Etc etc

      2. AnotherHRPro*

        Yes. BRAKING NEWS – actions have consequences!! The OP had every right to refuse to give up her seat. She had every right to be rude. Nether of these are behavioral requirements. That does not mean that others may judge her harshly and believe that those actions say something about her character. When someone is rude, I believe they are rude until they prove to me that they are not.

    3. Chriama*

      I think calling OP’s character into question is a bit much. But the social contract on public transit is pretty well established. People don’t often ask for seats unless they need them. And the potential harm to “you” (general you) if you’re able-bodied, of giving up a seat to someone who didn’t actually need it is much smaller than the harm to someone who needs a seat and doesn’t get it. So I’d say that calling OP’s *actions* (not character) immoral/rude/whatever is a pretty accurate statement.

    4. Thursday Next*

      But that’s precisely what the LW is being–and should be–judged on: making the choice not to give up a seat. In this instance, the LW exercised their free will poorly.

      I don’t see how someone asking for a seat for her father can be lumped in with public transit “crazies.” That’s really disrespectful and unfair. Was she rude, as the LW suggested? Maybe. That shouldn’t make a difference, though, especially as she was making the request on someone else’s behalf, i.e., not for her own personal convenience.

      It’s hard being the caregiver of someone with a disability, especially when that disability isn’t readily visible. I’m glad that I have never encountered anyone like you or the LW when I travel with my disabled 6-year-old on the subway.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I feel like you and many others in this comment section have never been regular users of public transit.

      As Alison explained in her response and many others have explained in comments, there is a social contract involved when you use those services and giving up your seat for someone elderly or disabled is part of that contract.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Honestly, I think proactively giving up your seat is part of the social contract someone might not know, but being directly asked to someone a favor? If it won’t hurt you? That’s pretty much just general politeness, IMO.

    6. Natalie*

      It’s not an airplane. You don’t get an assigned seat or even a guarantee of a seat with your fare. You are entitled to zero seats, whether or not you sat down in them first.

      The buses in my city have little fold out seats that have to be moved if someone using a wheelchair boards, because that’s where the wheelchair straps are to keep that person safely not moving on the bus. I’ve seen people ejected from the bus before because they didn’t want to get up.

    7. fposte*

      You can’t rule out the possibility of a dodged bullet, I suppose. But I think the lesson obtains nonetheless–that what you do outside of the interview process can affect the interview process, and even if you feel your behavior was justified there’s a not inconsiderable chance the person considering hiring you won’t share your view.

    8. Tiffin*

      I’m also judging the OP for marking the woman’s coat with his bike and not apologizing in the moment or even appearing to think it was wrong.

      And even if the OP had no intention of giving up his seat AND the woman was super rude, there’s no reason to answer rudeness with rudeness. A simple, “I’m sorry, I can’t” would have cost him nothing.

      1. kittymommy*

        Yes, this. The fact that it was only later (after she was turned down for the job) that it is even considered to maybe offer for cleaning of the coat speaks volumes. Regardless if the request should/should not have been ignored (much less honored) that is a separate issue from damaging someone else’s property. Further, the fact that offering to clean it is even still a question is very telling.

    9. Observer*

      Well, there is a lot of context here. Also, as a lot of people pointed out, there are better reasons and worse reasons for refusing to give up your seat. “I don’t wanan and don’t hafta” is what the OP’s reasons sounded like, just more dressed up. But, what’s even worse is that they ignored the request – and not because they had reason to fear that the person asking was going to do something crazy but because “It’s not a disable seat and I’m busy.”

      THEN the OP compounded this by greasing up the woman’s coat and not apologizing for it. As someone else pointed out, to do that you either need to have a very greasy chain (something you should be careful of if you need to take your bike into crowded spaces) or the contact was not just a tap.

      So, however rude this woman may have been – which is an open question given all the ways the OP shows questionable judgement – the OP’s behavior definitely left them open to bad results.

    10. Falling Diphthong*

      Entitled to give up or not give up entirely of their own free will.

      Well, sure. What you are not entitled to is freedom from any consequences of all this free willing. The CEO’s wife is entitled to relate the incident or not, entirely of her own free will. The hiring manager or CEO is entitled to accept or reject OP’s application, entirely of their own free will. You can’t cite your free choice as the most important thing and then get surprised when other people exercise their free choice in ways that negatively affect you.

  72. CarolineK*

    Some people have medical conditions that get them in a situation where if they don’t down right away they may fall down or faint. Even if that wasn’t the case you should have gotten up for this man with no question.

    I have a feeling you were a little aggressive or abrupt swinging that bike as well. Another example to this lady that yiubdint care about others. This is all just a perfect example of Karma.

    1. CarolineK*

      Just thinking more about it… How would thewife even bring this young lady to her husband’s attention? How would she know if this person was an employee or a job applicant? “Does a young woman work for you? Well she was rude, unfeeling and ruined my coat!” “There are hundreds of young women who work for the company who do you mean?” Did the wife follow this person to see why she was in the building? Figured it out and then was able to point her out to her husband?

      1. Natalie*

        The CEO’s wife didn’t track LW down, it was just a coincidence:

        I did not think much of this till the next day when I ran into the same woman and one of directors in the lift in my office building. It transpired that she is the CEO’s wife.

        (LW is interning at the same company where they were interviewing, in case that wasn’t clear)

      2. Liane*

        Per the OP, there was a company director on the elevator, so I think as soon as OP was out of earshot, Mrs. CEO asked the director who the OP was and possibly why they were at the office.

        And it might have been that director, not Mrs. CEO, who either told the CEO or made the decision to not offer the job.

  73. memyselfandi*

    As someone else said here, this is a good lesson in self-awareness. Alison’s response is very good, and I am reading it as if she wrote it to me. Many of us need to be reminded of this.

  74. Neisa*

    I will saw that I’ve had similar encounters that have ended up MANY times in ugly (verbal) fights when someone MY AGE will ask me to give up my seat, and I refuse. I am a 50 year old woman who looks 30. I have rheumatoid arthritis. This doesn’t show on the outside in anyway. So when a 50 year old looks at me, they see some young “kid” and think *I* am rude for not getting up. I feel that I as a 50 year old, not to mention one with painful health issues, has earned the right to take and keep a seat—especially when an able-bodied age peer things age alone gives them some right. On the rare days when I feel OK, I proactively offer my seat to others. But otherwise, people continue to look at me like a kid, call me liar about my age AND health problems if I bother to explain to them. If I were OP in this, I can totally see myself losing a job because some age-peer of mind thought only of themself and never cared consider the hardship of the person of whom they asked for the seat. Are most 30 year olds who don’t rise to that occasion (by rising from their seat) rude? Maybe they are. But I’m surely not the only person here who (a) is much younger than people perceive of me to be, and (b) has serious, painful health issues that aren’t obvious from the outside.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      I think this is really awful and I’m sorry that people challenge you when you tell them you can’t give up your seat. However, we really don’t have any reason to think that the OP is older than perceived and/or has painful health issues. All we know is that they didn’t *want* to give up their seat because the request was made rudely and they wanted to keep reading. Given that information, I think Alison’s advice is spot on.

    2. Chriama*

      I sympathize with you, but I think the situations you’re describing are pretty far from what happened. If you say “I have arthritis so I can’t stand” or even “I’m sorry, I have a medical condition and I can’t give up this seat” and someone is rude to you in response, that’s on them. But if you completely ignore someone because you’re tired of getting rude responses, that’s still on you. I can be sympathetic to you and still not condone your behaviour.

    3. Thursday Next*

      I’m sorry you’ve had these experiences. But they don’t sound similar to the OP’s at all! Of course you can assert your own need for a seat in response to a request. It’d be incredibly rude of anyone to challenge that. OP, though, didn’t respond at all–and as many others here have noted, her bike was an additional signal of able-bodiedness, not just her age.

  75. Statler von Waldorf*

    Wow, I have never felt more sorry for a letter writer before. This comment section is a brutal pile-on of moral indignation. There is a very small amount of empathy from a few people, but far, far more have decided the letter writer is morally deficient and are now reveling in the letter writer’s misfortune in a big orgy of schadenfreude.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

      Pretty much everyone agrees that the OP messed up here, yes, but your definition of “reveling” and “orgy” must be broader than mine. There’s certainly a little bit of “woo karma” going on, but I’d say the majority of the comments are “take this as a lesson.” Also (not that it matters), the thread where the OP who didn’t get a job because the person they bullied was a superstar at the company was much, much more brutal.

      2. Statler von Waldorf*

        You’re right, it doesn’t matter. Pointing out that something else was worse doesn’t make this situation any better, it just attempts to minimize the situation here.

        This actually bothers me enough that I think this will be my last comment here. This is no longer a community that I want to be a part of.

    2. Sylvia*

      I definitely think the OP messed up here, but the comments on “character” are a bit much.

    3. Transit Rider*

      As someone who uses public transit that is lacking in many ways to commute to and from work, I really do honestly wonder if most commenters would have reacted the same way if they were in a similar situation as the LW. I’ve rarely seen people on the buses I ride voluntarily give up their seat for an elderly or disabled person.

      The LW made a mistake and hopefully learned something from it. It’s part of learning how to navigate the post-college world and a valuable learning experience.

      1. F M*

        “I really do honestly wonder if most commenters would have reacted the same way if they were in a similar situation as the LW. ”

        I’ve been asked for my seat a few times before, and always gave it to whoever was asking. I’ve also proactively stood up to free a seat when I saw a situation that seemed to need one, though sometimes that’s just “moving to a different seat so that there are two together when a parent with two kids staggers in”. I’ve also occasionally offered and had my offer either accepted or turned down.

        I once had a woman quite aggressively tell me to stand up because I’d sat on something she had left on the bus. I was irked, but I stood up, and it turned out I was indeed sitting on the (not yet lit) cigarette she’d left behind. She took the cigarette and stormed away, making snide comments about me. I sat back down. I really don’t see how ignoring her would’ve improved the situation, despite the rude asking.

        I’ve never clipped someone with a bike while entering or exiting public transport, so I admit I can’t comment with proof on whether or not I would’ve responded the same way in that area.

      2. SarahTheEntwife*

        Public-transit-commuter here, and it happens all the time where I live (and the stereotype of Boston is not exactly overly gregarious…). I’ve definitely been so engaged in a book or whatever that I don’t notice that there should be someone I should be proactively offering my seat to, but if someone asked I’d definitely stand up and probably apologize for not noticing them sooner. If the bus is full I usually try to be more on the lookout when people get on in case someone needs a seat.

      3. Observer*

        Not proactively giving up a seat is not that big of a deal. It’s the rest of it that grates – compounded by the tone of the letter. It comes off as very entitled, callous and un-selfaware.

      4. animaniactoo*

        NYC subway rider here for 3+decades. I don’t always give up the seat, but I always respond – politely. I will always proactively work to squeeze myself into the side/closer to someone else so that another person can fit on the bench next to me (in that case, usually it’s a 3 person bench and it’s me and somebody with their legs spread or using the seat for their bags).

        In my experience most people give up a seat if asked, and if not they will do as I do – refuse for a stated reason; but ask the person next to them if they can/will. Often the person next to me/them will already be half out of the seat offering it up freely.

        I’ve had to ask a couple of times when I was ambulatory (ha!) post-op and just couldn’t stand not one more minute. I’ve never been ignored.

        When the asker is rude, I will say something about that if it’s towards me or somebody I’m near “Hey, ask nicely please. I/she didn’t see you standing there.”, but ignoring is not something I see unless somebody is way out there on the rudeness/entitled scale themselves.

    4. Pontoon Pirate*

      I’ve felt sorrier for other LWs before, but I have to agree, the commenting lately has been heavy on the rocks, given the likelihood of glass houses.

  76. ellis55*

    This is a good opportunity to learn something it took me a very, very long time to learn at work – being defensive is your worst enemy. Sometimes, you will experience consequences that when placed under a microscope or adjudicated by a 100% neutral body of your peers may not be fair. In those instances, it’s so tempting to lick our wounds by appealing to all the factors in your favor and using them to reassure yourself you did nothing wrong. If you get too into this habit, it can start to feel like the important thing is whether you could justify a specific behavior or not.

    The actual important thing here, as you’ve seen, is that the person who mattered had a very different view of your behavior than you did, and in a crazy turn of events was in the position to retaliate almost immediately. For the purposes of consequences, the only version of events that matters here is hers. That’s bad luck; it might even be pretty unfair. In this instance, you can’t do anything about it.

    That said, the next time your behavior is called into question, take a deep breath and a step back. Consider how a reasonable person might interpret the same set of facts differently and kick around the notion that you might have been in the wrong. Find something you can take responsibility for – even something small. If you’re confronted and given the opportunity to explain yourself, you’ll get a lot further with, “I made some assumptions – that she wasn’t talking to me, that she wasn’t looking for my specific kind of seat – that in retrospect were wrong. In any case, I shouldn’t have ignored someone asking for help – that was rude. I can see how I might have handled it better, and I’ve learned that lesson,” than you will with “I wasn’t even in a disabled seat and she was rude to me first!”

    Be a serious believer that in any situation you can be the one who messed up. Empathize with the person who feels wronged, and find something you might have been able to do differently. Then move forward by acknowledging their feelings and being kind. You can include your rationale, as I did above, without making it sound like an excuse.

    This is an important skill to practice, particularly as someone junior. “Standing up for yourself” is almost always going to sound like an excuse, even if you’re good at it. Bonus – people who are thoughtful, self-aware, and empathetic make great managers when that time comes.

    Sorry to hear about the job.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, really nice and thoughtful comment, ellis55, that brings some dimension we haven’t really touched on yet.

  77. Lynn*

    In a perfect world, the CEO’s wife would have politely asked for a seat from someone reasonably less likely to need one than her father (whose age and need is unknown here). That person would have politely responded, and everything would have moved forward smoothly.

    In practice, she apparently asked someone both holding a bicycle and at least a bag (may or may not have already had papers out), and did so “rudely,” expecting the LW to repack their materials, shoulder their bag, and rearrange their bicycle on a full train. Not impossible, but probably not the best person to have asked to adjust themselves. The LW ignored the request. Not the perfect, polite response, but not the worst thing either. Since I’ve had people ask for a seat and used it to hold their bag while we both stood, been yelled and berated at for explaining that I actually needed the seat myself, moved only to have the asker get off after one stop while I was stuck standing for a half hour, etc., I’m not unsympathetic to the LW here. (Actually, even when I had a medical need for a seat, I’ve never had a refusal go well – but ignoring them is usually drama free.) I also find it difficult to imagine what the CEO’s wife was doing still near the LW when they got off – if her father needed a seat, why wouldn’t she have moved on to ask someone else? There is also generally no time to exchange info when getting off a train, and a dirty coat is basically the cost of using public transport (or leaving your home).

    So, while not ideal, I’m not seeing anything so rude that it justifies interfering with a hiring decision. And, on the assumption that everything in the letter is true, it rather seems like equally rude and entitled behavior from both the LW and the CEO’s wife (even more so from the CEO’s wife, who apparently thinks anyone who ignores a strangers “rude” request and bumps against her with a bike should not have a job).

    1. LawBee*

      my theory is that the CEO’s wife had nothing to do with the hiring decision, and OP wasn’t going to be hired regardless.

      2. Jessica*

        Maybe, but I could easily see Mrs. CEO coming home and saying, “Argh! I was on the train with Dad and asked someone to give up their seat so he could sit down. And not only did they just flat-out ignore me, but they caught my coat in their bike when they got off, and left a big grease mark!” And then the next day, “Zomg! I just rode up in the elevator with Ignoring Bike Person!” And then CEO puts two and two together and decides that maybe some other intern is more deserving of that spot. She may have had an influence purely on an anecdotal basis, but sometimes that’s all it takes.

        Imagine if LW had given up the seat and been all nice about it, and then had ridden up with Mrs. CEO in the elevator the next day. Probably would’ve gotten the job.

        1. LawBee*

          That’s assuming that the ONLY reason LW didn’t get the job was because she didn’t give up a seat and apologize about the coat. Maybe, maybe not. I lean towards not.

        2. Jessica*

          I hope that has occurred to the OP – if he’s sure that his behaviour on the train is what ruled him out, I hope he’s imagining the good impression he could have made if he’d behaved otherwise.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Without knowing (a lot) more, I don’t think we can conclude that this interaction actually affected the hiring decision at all. It seems like a pretty big leap to me.

      Even if the CEO’s wife recognized the LW and was upset enough to mention it to her husband, the CEO would have to connect the story with that particular intern. It seems more likely that they just didn’t offer the LW the job, which is apparently the most common outcome for interns at this organization.

    3. MuseumChick*

      Assuming that the LW is more in-the-right/less rude in this situation than the CEO’s wife, this is still a really good (though painful) lesson for the OP: You never know who you are talking to/interacting with. No doubt the CEO’s wife has a VERY different take on what happened and that is the story the CEO got. Her story probably goes something like,

      “Husband, you will never believe what happened today on the train. It was really packed and Dad was having a hard time standing. I saw a young woman reading and asked her if Dad could have her seat. She completely ignored me. I know she heard me because of she (made eye contact/rolled her eyes at me/insert some other behavior that may or may not have actually happend.). I was so upset. Dad really wasn’t feeling well and this young 20 something couldn’t even be bothered speak to me. Oh, and she had this huge bike with her taking up a ton of space. People are becoming so entitled! And then after that, she bummed her bike into. I really think it was deliberate.”

      Then, after meeting again the elevator

      “Husband! That is the person I was telling you about from the train!”

    4. Mr Rogers*

      Quoting part of this just to emphasize something I see often in LW’s and sometimes fellow commenters:

      “…I’m not seeing anything so rude that it justifies interfering with a hiring decision.”

      The truth is, most jobs have more than one applicant that would do great in the position. Maybe they have different strengths, but more often than not (especially in entry level jobs), the final decision maker is personality fit with the people you’ll be reporting to. There’s frequently this misconception that people need a compelling, objectively justified reason to knock one candidate out of the running and that’s just… not true? In the end, the final decision maker didn’t like the LW enough. Maybe because they heard about this rude incident, maybe because they didn’t like their answers to questions, maybe because they thought the LW was perfectly fine but the other candidate was GREAT. That doesn’t mean they think the LW should be unemployed forever, they just don’t feel like working with them every day and/or would prefer to work with the other person for a myriad of reasons!

      Connected to this of course is my belief that losing out on a job opportunity is not gross injustice/punishment, as no one is entitled to a particular position over the other applicants. For every job opening, there is one person who gets it and a lot more who don’t. So no, the CEO’s wife is not necessarily someone “who apparently thinks anyone who ignores a strangers “rude” request and bumps against her with a bike should not have a job”, even if we take the LW at their word. They’re just someone who didn’t like someone else, and faced with another great candidate to choose, why not just go with that person instead? It’s not like they fired the LW.

      1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        You’re right. A person can get a job (or not) based on things that go beyond education and skills. I once got a job because I had the most legible handwriting. This was back in pre-computer days when applications were filled out by hand. The hiring manager told me that she’d interviewed three candidates before me but liked me the most because she could clearly read my handwriting. Fair? Probably not. I did learn an important lesson that day about how small details about things that don’t seem to matter to you can matter very much to another person.

        FWIW, OP I thank you for this letter. Last night I used your story as a teaching moment for my middle school aged kids. Our actions outside of the comforts of our own four walls are available for anyone’s scrutiny and judgement and while it might not always be fair it’s important to remember that we are responsible for our own actions so we should strive to make them good.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        There’s frequently this misconception that people need a compelling, objectively justified reason to knock one candidate out of the running.

        Good point, and an example of a naive assumption about work that people make early in their careers. Oftentimes, the hiring manager is deciding between half a dozen reasonable candidates with different mixes of hard and soft skills, and you don’t get the job for reasons that are small and arbitrary rather than grand and universally true in a fair universe.

        Though–it’s not uncommon for young people new to work who have always excelled academically to discount the many soft skills that add up to being pleasant to work with. To be convinced that scoring a 98 while being prickly should mean they beat out anyone who scores a 92 while having great interpersonal skills, because that’s how it worked on the linear algebra final.

    5. Decima Dewey*

      It doesn’t matter who was rude first, or whether the father was elderly or infirm, or whether or not it looked like the father actually needed the seat, etc., etc. If someone asks for my seat for their 55 year old father, I don’t get to say “Actually, I’m 61. I win!”

    6. Observer*

      Getting bicycle grease on your coat is not something that reasonable people should expect when getting on a train. More importantly, though is that it doesn’t take that long to apologize. Which the OP didn’t do.

  78. Jessica*

    Forget whether the LW was rude in ignoring the request to give up their seat. I’d say the coffin lid slammed shut when LW snagged Mrs. CEO’s coat in what I assume is the bike chain on their way out. (There aren’t many places to catch an item of clothing on a bike in such a way that would leave a stain.) Bike chain grease doesn’t come out, and to just walk off and not even apologize for damaging someone else’s property…

    LW, it was an amazing coincidence that the person you dissed and whose coat you ruined happened to be, of all people in the world, the wife of the CEO. But the working world is indeed surprisingly small, and you can never predict when the random person next to you could make or break your career. But the fact of the matter is…you blew it.

    Make it a personal goal to be nice to everyone in public from now on, and start sending out resumes.

  79. LawBee*

    (Reposted bc for some reason, it nested in a comment thread)

    My hot take that no one wants: OP wasn’t going to get the job anyway even if HR said she was. Her total lack of empathy on the train, the coat issue (which I suspect, possibly uncharitably, was less accidental than told), and the fact that at no point in the letter does she acknowledge her own rudeness, plus the general tone of the first couple of paragraphs – all of this gave me a picture of someone who probably wasn’t great to work with.

    Interns are scrutinized not only for work product, but office compatibility. HR wouldn’t have a clue about that – it’s not their job. But I guarantee that when the interns were discussed at the end of the program, whether the OP would fit the company’s culture was a topic of concern.

    It is entirely possible that the CEO’s wife had nothing to do with it, and the OP was just a blip in her day.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Yes. The HR “guarantee” seems to have been one person who really liked the OP, but this was a very competitive job and OP apparently got some feedback after about why she wasn’t selected, related to her skills.

    1. Thursday Next*

      Thank you for posting this! I live in NYC, and couldn’t bring myself to ask for a seat one day–it would have taken more emotional energy than I had at the moment. I gave birth 12 hours later. :)

  81. BytetheBullet*

    I’m feeling some sympathy for the OP because almost everyone is interpreting his behavior as a deep character flaw rather than a momentary lapse of judgement. It seems overly harsh to label him a bad person.

    I agree that his behavior was rude and requires some self-reflection though. The CEO was justified in vetoing his job offer, should that really have been the case. Sometimes you’re caught in a bad moment that doesn’t reflect well on you.

    1. animaniactoo*

      If the OP had described it as having had a bad moment, I’d take their word for it. But they’re not – they’re still defending the actions not just the next day, but all the way into sitting down to write to AAM.

      I don’t necessarily think s/he is a “bad person”, but I think they’ve got a lot of thinking to do about how they interact with the world and what they see as important both to themselves and to others. Because given the actions and takeaway viewpoint, I think there’s a better than even chance that they are actually somewhat rude in other situations and this isn’t really just a one-off event.

      1. BytetheBullet*

        I agree with all of your points. This was not the OP’s most brilliant moment and yes, they do need to consider their own behavior. Overall, I guess it felt like too much of a pile-on for me… with the criticism being more sharply worded than usually in these cases. But oh well. I hope the OP reflects on their behavior and will be more considerate and responsible in the future.

    2. Observer*

      I think a lot of the pile on is because this is not just about a bad moment. But that the OP doesn’t recognize that their behavior was in any way problematic. *ANS* the op wants to go to HR to complain about the CEO!

      Not that I think that the OP is a terrible person or anything like that. But, it does show something that SHOULD worry a good CEO.

    3. Temperance*

      I understand some of the behavior, but I was honestly appalled that LW didn’t seem to care that they destroyed CEO’s wife’s coat.

  82. PizzaDog*

    If the CEO’s wife was rude when asking, could it have been because the bike had been jostling her and/or her father for some of the journey already? Bikes aren’t exactly stable.

    I will say that I don’t think this is what cost you the job – it’s a pretty big coincidence for it to have even happened this way. I think HR bigged you up and you thought you had it in the bag, and now that you don’t, you’re looking for a way to explain it. No job is guaranteed, even if you’re signing a contract, punching in for your first day, at your yearly evaluation, etc. It’s healthy to be confident in your abilities, but you have to be prepared for things not to go your way. Maybe you put something out into the universe that day, like being rude to anyone (not even that it’s the CEO’s wife), and the universe paid you back in kind.

    1. Mr Rogers*

      Yup, I second this. I think it’s a case of what we see here often, which is the rough feeling of thinking you had a job that was yours for the taking, but it turns out you didn’t. It sucks! But it doesn’t mean some unfair badmouthing cost them a sure thing.

  83. LS*

    This reminds me a boss at OldJob… they were extremely hard working and competent from a skills and ‘getting things done’ p.o.v. but their interpersonal skills… lacking, to say the least. They once slammed down the phone, after an obviously frustrating conversation with someone in another department, and said to me “do you know that you have to be NICE to people to get things done around here?” Not the type of person I would ever hire, because yes, of course you have to be nice to people.

    OP, however competent you are, please remember that how you treat others is a sign of character, and how you treat others when they seem unimportant, or when you’re in a bad mood, even more so.

    Someone else here defended the OP by saying basically that “she (Mrs CEO) started it”, but as a hiring manager I would be very interested to see how you deal with people who “start it”, or otherwise behave in ways that aren’t ideal. The workplace is full of them. How you deal with conflict is an indicator of whether you will succeed in a challenging environment.

    Good luck!

    1. MuseumChick*

      LS, you bring up a really good point about a manager being interested in how a person responds to something “starting” something. Do you escalate the situation (respond to rudeness with more rudeness) or do you conduct yourself as a mature adult?

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      This is a really good point, and I think something that a lot of academic over-achieveres* can take a while to learn–you can have the best technical proficiency scores and be much less desirable as an employee than someone with pretty decent technical proficiency scores and a less scratchy personality. They usually aren’t hiring you to sit in a room alone and produce brilliant solo output on your own schedule. (Remembering an AAM letter about how on reflection report Cersei’s unfleshed-out suggestion was better than Arya’s detailed plan, but that Cersei was being so obnoxious about it that OP hesitated to give her a ‘win’–and in the follow-up when Cersei was fired the whole office turned out to be relieved to have the problem employee gone, no matter how innovative an idea she occasionally had.)

      *I think this brushes against the problem of group assignments in school, which a lot of over-acheivers hate with good reason. (Because they wind up doing it all, and would rather it were just assigned that way.) In the actual work world, you’re usually assigned group work with people with different skill sets than yourself, and the whole process is miles away from the classroom version. And how you get along with all those people, and with customers or other outside contacts, can outweigh your in-isolation-brilliant (or adequate) hard contributions to the end product.

  84. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I don’t like how people seem to think my generation is less helpful or that it goes by age. I was at a Millenial wedding this past weekend, and MOH twisted her ankle. The BRIDE (in full dress and all) who is in med school, dropped everything to help. And whenever my wife and I travel or go out now, people of all ages help carry stuff (I push her in wheelchair and carry bags for two, so it can be a lot).

    I don’t think Millenials are selfish, just sensitive to rudeness or being snapped/yelled at; if someone is rude in making a request, I can definitely tell, and I’m not inclined to help. It’s someone having a sense of entitlement to transit/other space or my help that bothers me.

    Once, a Baby Boomer lady was the only one in her lane at the gym’s pool; as it was full, split lanes are usually assumed, and I have lots of swim experience sharing a lane with up to four others from swim teams, I shrugged, resolved to not get in her way, and got in. Before I could explain what I was meaning to do, she started yelling!

    I would have waited or moved if she had nicely explained her need for the whole entire lane, but honestly, that just got to me.

    Politeness makes more politeness. LW is in the wrong but I can understand the reaction more if the wife asked rudely.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      Sure, but the thing I always tell myself is that it’s not actually personal. They don’t know me, they’re not being rude to Snark, they’re being rude to some guy and they’ll forget about me in approximately 17 seconds. Even if someone is being brisk or brusque or short or even downright rude, unless I feel like they’re going to take a swing at me, I generally do whatever is necessary to de-escalate. Usually that means, say, giving up my seat, or taking another lane, or whatever. Yes, that requires me to swallow a little ego, yes, I occasionally can’t contain a short reply, but generally, these little rudenesses are not the hill I care to die on.

      1. Temperance*

        FWIW, I have a really strong aversion to people who bully others or boss them around. When someone is rude to me, I respond, typically by calling them out. I hate seeing others act like jerks and takers and get constantly rewarded for it.

        1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

          Exactly! I am usually a kind person, and often get compliments on my willingness to help others. I think I might even sort into Abnegation (if you get the Divergent series reference). I just struggle with my temper and anxiety if someone is really rude, yelling, or has unreasonable ideas on what I should do for them. But use please and thank you and don’t yell or make bad assumptions about me, and I will go over and above to help!

          Barking at me that you need a seat and I’m rude? Not rewarding that. On the other hand, the MOH I mention above that sprained her ankle pre-wedding last weekend? She was kind to and thanked people that helped her, and tried her best to still play her role in the wedding without making it worse. I didn’t know her at all before then, but I was running around getting her things and helped her by being a leaning post or helping physically carry her.

          Fortunately, Minnesota Nice is a thing, so I can be known as a helpful instead of a rude person, most of the time. I work on it, but as I’m sensitive to tone and voice volume, I tend to return whatever emotion or attitude I get with similar, in my personal life.

          1. Temperance*

            I totally relate to this! I’m an Erudite, though ;) My work is in pro bono legal services, so I generally am helpful and kind, but I don’t tolerate shit behavior. I have a bad temper when attacked. I think it’s anxiety-related, but I don’t really care why. I don’t lose it on nice people.

        2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          I understand where you’re coming from, and until a few years ago I’d have been tilting at that windmill with you, but….yeah. Tilting at windmills.

    2. the gold digger*

      I was in a Good Lane at the Y – not the one by the wall, but one in. Other lanes were empty. A woman suddenly appears in my lane, standing there and keeping me from swimming.

      She demanded that I change lanes.

      I told her no, I wanted this one (because fewer waves, etc, etc). She protested, saying she was blind and they had made this lane especially for her and pointing to the BACKSTROKE GUIDE LINE that was hanging overhead parallel to and running the full length of the lane.

      I told her that that line was not for her, it was the guide line for people swimming backstroke. Honestly.

  85. BoyMom*

    I feel this advice is spot on but came to add my own experience. My dad was a CEO and I worked admin for awhile. My dad doesn’t dress like a CEO he wears jeans and flannel, you wouldn’t believe the sales people lost because they didn’t know who he was and were rude to him or me.

    I’m a government employee in a small town. I have a reputation for always being nice to people because even off the clock I represent them. I can’t tell you how many times people I’ve ran into have been connected to people my husband interacts with for his company

  86. Noah*

    I actually think it’s a bit harsh to call OP’s character into question. I’m willing to hope this is more a matter of inexperience.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      We’ve plenty reasons to think OP at least tends to be a little entitled and self-centered.

  87. Erin*

    I haven’t read the comments so apologies if someone already said this but the OP indicated the woman *rudely* asked her to give up the seat. There is a pretty big difference between, “Excuse me, would you mind letting my father sit there? He can’t sit for long periods and the disabled seating is filled up.” and (angry face) “Would you get up? My father obviously needs to sit down.” As in, how dare she be sitting in a seat!

    She wasn’t obligated to give up the seat. If it were me I wouldn’t have if the person asking was more demanding than asking.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      It really doesn’t matter if the request was polite or not. Yeah, it riles up the old ego, but the request wouldn’t be made if it weren’t necessary. Is the goal to be right, or is the goal to de-escalate?

      2. Allison*

        Right. If someone’s asking, clearly sitting down matters to them. I like sitting and reading, I have a hard time reading while standing, but do I want to get into a fight, make the whole train hate me, or become the brat in a some viral clickbait video? Nah son, I just wanna get where I’m going. So even if it’s probably just some belligerent 40-something man who thinks the world owes him the moon for working hard that day, and in reality he’s no more tired than I am, screw it, let him have the seat.

  88. Undine*

    The OP was particularly unlucky that this happened. A crowded subway/train car is a place where people are ruder than most other locations, particularly in ignoring people. And if it had happened a month before, it’s likely that the CEO’s wife might not even have recognized her. But it’s fair game on the part of the company to take what happened into account as well. You could think of it the other way — if you had given up your seat or been particularly helpful, you would have gotten extra points in the interview.

    I am healthy except for standing on subways. I used to just wait until I nearly fainted and then sit on the floor, until I realized that it was really much easier to ask for a seat. I usually just ask the people in the disabled seats if they are “physically able” to give me a seat, and I almost always get a seat that way.

  89. DevAssist*

    I’m going to defend OP here…

    Yes, a person is never “entitled” to a job, but if I were OP, I would probably have the same confidence that I would be fired (unless the position was scrapped or funding changed or something of that nature).

    Also, Op’s behavior on the train sounds pretty bad, but how many people have ignored others as a defense/ confrontation avoidance mechanism? OP said the woman was pretty rude, and while ignoring an elderly man is bad, OP may have felt that pretending not to hear the request would cause less anger than saying “no.”

    OP, I’m sorry. This sucks. Offer to pay for dry cleaning since it’s the right thing to do, but start looking for a new opportunity and learn from this one.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I would probably have the same confidence that I would be hired.

      I think this falls under naive things people believe when new to work–that if one person involved in hiring is telling you good things about how well you’re doing, that means you have the job. Or that being shown where you would be sitting, or taken around to meet the team, or otherwise given positive feedback, surely mean you have the job. In this case, OP isn’t even citing the hiring manager as the person assuring them that they have it in the bag.

      It’s possible that this really is 100% OP annoying someone outside the office whose opinion turned out to matter, but OP should be very cautious of that instinct to look for some outside plot to explain away every disappointment. Especially given that they were handed specific advice on skills they needed to improve–don’t ignore that feedback. Consider that if OP hadn’t recognized the woman in the elevator the next week, this would never have occurred to them as The Real Reason they were not hired.

      1. DevAssist*

        Why is it naive though? I’ve had multiple instances like this. I always try to keep my hopes for a position reasonable, but when I’m told I HAVE a job, or the offer is being finalized, I’m going to believe the person. Yeah, things happen, but sometimes you’re being told the truth and there really aren’t factors outside of truly bad behavior or budget cuts that would cause the verbal offer to be rescinded.

  90. Ann Furthermore*

    OP, the CEO’s wife didn’t cost you the job, if she did in fact say something about the incident. Your choices and actions cost you the job.

  91. Anoushka*

    I’m really surprised at how many people still think you should give up your seat when someone has been rude asking for it.

    I’m the first person to give my seat up if someone looks like they’re struggling, or if they ask me nicely. Me reading is less important than someone who is struggling to stand. Ideally OP should have said something, though I do get why it’s sometimes easier to ignore than to engage on public transport.

    But… This weekend I was on the National Rail out of London. I had my feet resting at the bottom of the seat across from me as my husband had popped to the toilet. Train pulls into a stop, and a guy, his wife, and two young kids come on. Guy barks at me, as if he’s a police officer and I’m some wayward teen, to get my feet off the seat. There was a please at the end, but it was definitely an order and not a question.

    I tell him my husband is sitting there, give him a pointed look, and tell him I won’t be moving.

    If he’d been polite, I’d have stood for the next 30 minutes so he could have sat with his family. But I’m not rewarding rudeness. Maybe next time he’ll think twice about how he talks to people.

    1. Madame X*

      There’s a difference between declining to give up your seat and ignoring the person who is talking to you. Plus, the OP stated that they they also stained the CEO’s wife’s coat and didn’t apologize. All of that sounds extremely rude. If the OP’s interaction with the wife had any impact on the company’s hiring decision, it would understandably not be a favorable decision.
      One thing we don’t know is what type of job the OP was applying for. It’s possible that really well developed interpersonal skills are extremely important to see in candidates (especially if you are going to be in situations where you are going to work with difficult people). Although, I do sympathize with the OP a bit because it does sound like they worked very hard to get that interview.

      1. Anoushka*

        But we don’t know how CEO’s wife asked for the seat, only that she asked for it rudely.

        If she was really aggressive in asking, I can understand someone not responding. There are people who have come up to me when I’m on public transport, and their behaviour or how they’re talking to me or even if it’s late at night makes me feel uneasy engaging with them. You don’t always have the option to leave public transport when someone is aggressive, and you can’t rely on the driver to help you, so sometimes it’s better to say nothing.

        I don’t think OP’s excuses that she was reading or it wasn’t a designated priority seat have merit, but how the CEO’s wife talked to her might, and we don’t know enough from the letter to judge.

        1. Sadsack*

          Doesn’t matter. The seat was for the father in law, who probably needed the seat due to his step. Get up.

            1. Anoushka*

              It does matter. If someone is rude, you don’t reward their behaviour. Because they’ll just repeat that behaviour next time. Being old doesn’t excuse you from being polite and social norms.

              OP’s situation is bit trickier, because the rude person is asking for a seat on behalf of someone else. In OP’s shoes, I would have turned to the man, and asked if he would like to sit down. That way you’re not rewarding rudeness, or hurting someone who might actually need the seat.

              I wouldn’t want to hire OP, but not because she didn’t offer up her seat to someone who asked for it rudely. It’s her remark that ‘this wasn’t specifically a disabled spot, so I didn’t get up’ which is far, far more damning, in my opinion.

        2. Observer*

          We actually do NOT know if the wife was rude – given the OP’s attitude, it fair to question their judgement on the matter.

          And again, even from the outside without knowing, as we do, what the OP’s considerations were, the issue of greasing up someone’s coat (and it’s pretty clear that it was the OP’s fault, even though unintentional) without apologizing simply cannot be explained away or justified. Not understanding that really is odd.

    2. Erin*

      +1

      Exactly. Try being nice instead of entitled and mean and you might get what you want (or need, as the case may be).

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Given how this might have all unfolded differently had OP taken the advice, this is dripping with irony.

        (If you agree with their interpretation that the subway incident is the sole thing that flipped a guaranteed yes to a no.)

    4. Willowbough*

      Putting your feet on the seats is the rudest thing in this lovely little vignette you decided to share.

  92. Flora Merriweather*

    One thing to keep in mind too are folks with invisible disability or invisible illnesses, such as a pregnant woman who isn’t ‘showing’ but who may still feel extreme fatigue! These folks (or anyone feeling illness or fatigue) is just as deserving of a seat as someone who visibly presents as in-need.
    Even if the woman may have been rude, it is possible that her traveling companion did need to be seated!

  93. Lee*

    What a weird story! A CEO’s wife opts to take her disabled father on a crowded night train, and then rudely asks a young person with a bike and tons of written materials to give up their seat for him? This reminds of when a very pregnant Olivia Wilde got on a NYC subway and then angrily tweeted that none of the able-bodies would give up their seat for her. Um, public transportation is not the place for entitlement, and it seems like the people that expect gold star treatment are the same ones who could very easily afford alternate transportation (like celebrities or the wives of CEOs).
    But OP, please note that ignoring requests from fellow human beings and most likely having an inflated sense of professional self-worth isn’t good either. Having compassion for others, especially when the situation isn’t easy, makes you the bigger person. And you wouldn’t have to wonder why you didn’t get the job.

    1. Madame X*

      “Opts to take her father on a crowded night train”

      That’s not really weird. There are all sorts of valid reason someone might take a train in the evening/night. Also, you don’t always know how crowded a train might be until you get on one.

      1. Lee*

        Said the story was weird, not the fact that a presumably wealthy woman opted to take her disabled elderly father on a crowded night train. I assume it was quicker than ubering or having the limo pick them up?

        1. CityMouse*

          A CEO is not automatically super wealthy and in cities with public transportation, it if often far faster to take a train than to take a cab or car. I know the partners at the law firm I interned at all took the metro.

        2. Jessie the First (or second)*

          “I assume it was quicker than ubering or having the limo pick them up”

          This is not England in 1915 and lots of people with high incomes do not have limos. It is not really a usual thing to have limos with hired drivers at this point. And plenty of people don’t feel ubers/Lyfts are safe options.

        3. Observer*

          I don’t know where the OP is, but in many parts of NYC, it most definitely can be more sensible to take the train than try to get car. NYC is not unique in that respect. And, even in the unlikely case that the CEO and family have limo, in a large metro area, the limo may very well not be able to park within a reasonable distance from wherever the Wife and Dad were coming from. Again to take NYC as an example, if you are in large parts of Manhattan, there is just no place to park a limo so it would have to come from a fair distance.

    2. Tiffin*

      Wait, you think it’s entitlement for a heavily pregnant woman (famous or not) to expect someone to give up their seat for her?

      1. Artemesia*

        Yes. Wow. There is a lot of misogyny and hostility that gets directed at pregnant women, especially those who expect a seat on a bus. I dn’t get it. Boorish men who whine about this usually argue that ‘well she chose to get pregnant.’ I am guessing if they broke an ankle playing basketball, they would expect to get a seat. (and should)

    3. London Engineer*

      See I live in London where pretty much everyone uses public transport. And somehow being (possibly) wealthy means that a person – and all of their relatives – are not entitled to basic decency in the form of consideration for someone less able to stand? Taking class warfare a bit far here…

    5. LawBee*

      “This reminds of when a very pregnant Olivia Wilde got on a NYC subway and then angrily tweeted that none of the able-bodies would give up their seat for her. Um, public transportation is not the place for entitlement, and it seems like the people that expect gold star treatment are the same ones who could very easily afford alternate transportation (like celebrities or the wives of CEOs).”

      whaaaaaaaat?

    6. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Did you read a different letter than I did?

      Why couldn’t she use public transit? Where does it say that the op had tons of written materials?

      And no, public transport isn’t the place for entitlement, it’s a place where lots of people share a small space and thus need to work WITH each other. Actually, no, it is a place of entitlement and therefore OP should’ve given his seat up for someone who needed it more or at least been answered the (rude) question.
      There are signs in literally every public transportation system in the world informing people that they should be considerate to other passengers and give up seat to those who need them more.

      Why do you think the complete opposite?

  94. Isabelle*

    Slighty OT but I really wish all forms of public transportation had a system where disabled seats can only be used by people who need them. Personally I would go for some kind of badge that people can attach to their clothes (just like the disabled pass you display in your car) and only people who have this badge can be in disabled seats. That would take care of all disabled people, including those with hidden disabilities who are not served well by the current system. Temporary badges could be issued for injuries, pregnancy etc…

    I understand some people may not like the idea of identifying themselves as disabled with a badge but from what I experience on the bus and the train every day, the current system is just not working.

    1. Aurion*

      The process of obtaining the disabled placard can be fairly slow depending on the jurisdiction. I don’t think introducing more bureaucracy is going to help matters, particularly for more temporary ailments.

    3. Czhorat*

      Wearing a badge to label oneself as disabled is a horrific, terrible idea. I get where you’re coming from, but in my head all I see is pink triangles and yellow Stars of David.

      It’s one thing to label a vehicle; another to start labelling people – even voluntarily.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        Actually I have one of these and it’s great. It stops people glaring at me or asking me to get up, it gives me the confidence to ask for a seat and staff notice it and help me e.g. recently there was a huge queue for the underground and a staff member saw my badge and walked me through so I didn’t have to stand for ages. It doesn’t say I’m disabled, it says ‘please offer me a seat’. I don’t think it’s helpful to refer to those connotations because it actually helps me and makes life easier.

      3. strawberries and raspberries*

        Not only that, but you’ll also put people with disabilities under more scrutiny if law enforcement suspects that the badges aren’t genuine. One of my team members is legally blind and has a special transit pass, and when we were coming back from an event by subway I was shocked when a plainclothes transit cop stopped him to check his pass. My team member said this happens a lot because they want to check that the pass wasn’t stolen. Depending on the disability, it could cause a lot more distress for people trying to commute.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Your cops are at fault and not the badge. Here they are more likely to ask if you need help.

    4. Temperance*

      Except this would not work in any meaningful way. I can’t physically stand for a 45-minute train ride without causing pain, but I’m not “disabled” in the traditional sense. I don’t qualify for, nor do I need, a pass for accessible parking. Similarly, I don’t look disabled. However, when SEPTA decided to go on strike, and made us all stand in line for nearly an hour or more to get on a train, I had to ask for an accommodation because I could barely walk by the time I got home.

      I also strongly object to the idea that disabled people should have to identify themselves to nosy ass members of the public.

    5. Cassie*

      The Taipei Metro (train) system has a sticker that you can get at the station that indicates priority seating. I don’t know how often people get them, but it’s an option and I think it’s based on the honor system (if you ask for one, I don’t think they make you “prove” you need it). Priority seats (I think) are for people with disabilities, the elderly, pregnant women, and parents with infants.

      I don’t think disabled seats need to be reserved solely for people who need them – if there are enough seats for everyone who wants or needs them, I have no problem with people sitting in the priority seats until the time comes that the seats need to be vacated for someone else. It’s not like handicapped parking spaces where you have no idea when the driver for the other car will return.

      1. CM*

        I think the honor system is the best way to do this.
        I get the discomfort with “marking” people who are disabled, but I think if it’s their choice and they can easily remove the badge/sticker, it’s a good alternative to having them constantly stressed over whether they will be able to sit.

  95. Tuckerman*

    “it is extremely unfair to be rejected for something that has nothing to do with my performance and ability to do the job.”
    Ability to do the job isn’t just about hard skills (coding, interpreting, taking someone’s blood pressure). You may be the best engineer in town and still not be able to perform well in an engineering role if you do not have the necessary soft skills to navigate complex scenarios.
    From the train example, I would wonder whether you would be willing to help out colleagues who may be struggling with a project. Would you ignore them when they asked for help? What if the project was not related to your work? What if you detected rudeness or frustration in a colleague’s voice? I would wonder about your ability to navigate these situations.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Yes, all of this. Getting a job is about what you’re like as a person, with other people. This is not unfair, op.

  96. SoManyNamesInTenYears*

    I just would like to interject that my mother always reiterated to me to watch what you say in (and your jesters…) in public, because you never know who’s with who, who knows who, who’s around, who they know, who THEY know. Admittedly, I have put my foot in my mouth a few times in *ahem* 55+ years, but I have also saved me own arse by thinking of her telling me this sometimes, too. (Specifically thinking of all of the sports/concert/dance/plays/ church activities/parties/funerals/weddings that I’ve attended throughout years… SO much room for error…)

    1. SoManyNamesInTenYears*

      *gestures
      oh my goodness…although my children and friends would fall under the jesters category ;-)

  97. alex*

    NYC subway trains constantly play the same automated announcement that about giving seats to elderly, pregnant, and disabled people. It ends somewhat annoyingly with “You’ll be standing up for what’s right; courtesy is contagious, and it begins with you.” (lol if you’re from here, you know the dude’s voice.)

    Here at least, it is a violation of decency not to offer a seat on public transit (unless you’re in one of those classes yourself, obviously)– whatever you’re doing, whatever seat you’re in, whether or not they ask. If you notice somebody in those classes, you make eye contact and do the want-to-sit? gesture. I and many others get super judgey when people don’t, so that may be what happened here. Even worse, she wasn’t even asking for herself. And then the coat was the gravy.

  98. Blondee*

    Maybe I missed it somewhere in all the replies but how do we know for sure that the OP didn’t get the job because of the train incident? It’s possible the CEO or the other director that interviewed her thought she needed to develop additional skills. I have read letters and comments on AAM many times when people were sure they had the job or were told the company is just waiting for X to happen but they never get the callback. I know we are to take letter writers at their word, but I just don’t see where it can be confirmed that train incident cost her the job.

    1. Blurgle*

      It could be. It could be that the OP is scapegoating the CEO’s wife because he can’t accept that his own decisions (and perhaps attitude) scuppered his chances. Our home office had to lay off an engineer last winter, and nobody was surprised that the engineer let go was the one who treated the admins poorly.

      (I say “he” and “his” only because Alison used that pronoun in her replies.)

    2. LawBee*

      The OP is assuming that’s the reason (because presumably she can’t imagine not being hired for any other reason).

  99. len*

    It’s a little surprising that the CEO’s wife and her father were taking public transport.

    2. Natalie*

      There are plenty of cities around the world where taking public transportation is the rule, regardless of income or one’s physical ability to drive.

    5. sam*

      Despite our recent problems, the subway is often still the fastest/most effective way of getting around NYC. Certainly much faster than sitting in bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic.

      This also isn’t the 1970s/1980s. Wealthy people take public transit. Even our previous billionaire mayor made a big showy point about taking the subway all the time. Of course, that was often about the politics of it, but still.

  101. Ugh*

    I take public transit every day in a big metro area and I’ll never forget the time a pregnant woman got on the train, walked up to an elderly man (of Asian descent) and demanded his seat. He ignored her so she started yelling racial epithets at him. I was much younger then and neither me nor anyone else on the crowded train did anything. I cringe thinking about it. Public transit can be a truly terrible, terrible place.

    1. DrAtos*

      How awful. I wonder why she did not go up to a younger person. Even if you are disabled, elderly, pregnant, etc. courtesy is a two-way street. If you expect someone to get up for you, then kindly ask (not demand) for the seat. If that person cannot get up for whatever reason, go up to someone else. More than likely someone will get up. There is no excuse to be a racist.

  102. Blurgle*

    OP, you messed up your own job prospects. This is your fault, not the evil CEO’s wife you’d like to portray as the villain here. .

  103. Ramona Flowers*

    I haven’t read all the comments but – despite personally having an invisible disability and relying on the kindness of others to give up seats that aren’t specially labelled as priority because, you know, the lack of those doesn’t make it easier for me to stand for long periods – I’m actually most bothered by the fact that you seem not to have stopped to rectify the situation with the coat when it occurred. I wouldn’t employ you either, because I would worry that you lacked a sense of conscience or obligation or care towards others.

    I hope you learn from this. It doesn’t matter that you aced the internship. I’d prefer to hire a good-enough employee who didn’t act like this. Kindness and manners matter so so so much. I’m sorry nobody bothered to teach you that.

    1. Observer*

      I’m glad I’m not the only one bothered by the coat thing. It’s just not explainable.

  104. Anon, batting against trend*

    If you need a seat becuase of infirmity or old age you book a seat, if you cat you make other arrangements that will allow to cope with it

    The very last thing you or your travelling companions should do is expect anyone to give up their seat for you

    I say this as someone who need a hip replacement & has arthritis is almost every joint. I dont expect anyone to move for me and wouldnt move for anyone who asked me to stand for anyone who couldnt make thier own travel arrangements

    1. Colette*

      I’m not familiar with commuter or intra-city transit that lets you book a seat. They’re first come, first served with the provision that able-bodies people give up their seats for people who need them.

    2. Natalie*

      Book a seat? I’m fairly certain the OP is talking about public transportation, which does not generally have an option to reserve seating for anyone, for any reason.

      1. Anon, batting against trend*

        So make other arrangements, there are walking sticks for example that contain folding seats. There must be other transport options too.

        Demanding anyone surrender their assumingly paid for seat (via ticket) for you smacks of even more entitlement that the LW is accused of. If seats are first come first served then assume you wont get one and plan accordinly, make sure you have any pain medicaiton you might need, allow extra time, think about the need for a taxi at each end or arrange lifts from friends/coworkers etc. Consider leaning and taking the weight off a bad leg, sit on the floor is neccessary.

        And if seats are first come, first served then why should anyone give theirs up? if you arent first you dont get its a basic principle (yeah i got annoyed reading Allison’s highly judgemental {imo} response, i assume it shows, it is neaith rude nor does it neccessarily show anything about your personality or ability to work cohesively with others)

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          “it is neaith rude nor does it neccessarily show anything about your personality or ability to work cohesively with others”

          Oh, but it is and it does.

          Would you say all this that you said here in front of your boss?

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          PS please, tell me how you expect someone with a bad leg to get to the seat first, before the people that move more quickly.

        3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          “Demanding anyone surrender their assumingly paid for seat (via ticket) for you”

          What? No. You’re paying for transportation, not a seat, and in most subways, light rail trains, buses, and trams I’ve ever ridden in, there’s about 200% more riders than there are actual seats for them, and those passengers stand. In that situation, when only about a third actually get to sit, yes, it’s reasonable to expect that the seats will go to the elderly, disabled, pregnant, very young, and others who need to sit.

          1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            Also….

            “make sure you have any pain medicaiton you might need, allow extra time, think about the need for a taxi at each end or arrange lifts from friends/coworkers etc. Consider leaning and taking the weight off a bad leg, sit on the floor is neccessary.”

            If you honestly think this is a reasonable prescription for the disabled or injured, I suspect your growth as a human and moral actor would be greatly hastened by recovering from a fractured femur or a torn ACL or something like that. Not that I actually wish you pain and discomfort, but some folks really only develop empathy and understanding when something hits too close to home for them to insulate themselves with their usual armor of smug selfishness.

        4. Jessie the First (or second)*

          Your premise is false.

          Seats are not first come, first served on any public transportation system in the US of which I am aware. They are, instead, “first come first served but you must give up your seat to a passenger who is disabled/elderly/pregnant.” Those are the actual terms of the ticket you buy, and that is what you agree to abide by when you purchase the ticket.

          1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            And that is not merely a convention but is usually statutorily mandated by the municipal code.

          2. Cassie*

            I don’t know if the public transport systems in the greater LA area have those terms – they certainly do have marked priority seating areas (near the front of buses, near the doors on trains) and those may be subject to local laws (a couple of bus systems have a little sign near the seats with a municipal code reference) but I don’t think the law requires you to give up your seat in non-priority seating areas.

        5. Blurgle*

          And this is the problem.
          You do NOT pay for a seat; you pay to be let on the bus or train.
          You have a duty to give up your seat to anyone who needs it more than you. There is no such thing as first come first served on public transportation. You can be thrown off transit for refusing to give up your seat to someone who needs it more.
          There is often NO other cost-effective way to get around – in fact, public transit is often the only cost-effective way – and you do as an able-bodied person are NOT entitled special treatment (reserved seats, etc.) that puts you above the disabled and elderly.
          If you are too self-important to accept how the world works, you are the one who has to change.

        6. Natalie*

          If seats are first come first served

          This is a faulty assumption. In most public transportation systems I’m familiar with (US and non), it is an explicit rule that one should give up one’s seat to someone else who needs it for physical reasons. In my city, I have seen people thrown off the bus for refusing to do so.

          1. Temperance*

            I’ve seen people get admonished for it and thrown off the bus, but only if they sit in the explicitly labeled accessible seating.

        7. Colette*

          Aside from the fact that demanding that you keep a seat is rude and entitled, it’s actually not in your own self-interest to deny a seat to someone who needs one, because if they collapse, you’re not going to get to your destination.

        8. animaniactoo*

          “So make other arrangements, there are walking sticks for example that contain folding seats. There must be other transport options too.”

          NYC here – here are your other transport options.

          1) Take a car service or taxi for a minimum of 400% (might go as high as 2000%) as much as the cost of the public transport.
          2) Do your very best to be accepted as being disabled enough to be allowed to use the city’s Access-a-Ride car service for the same cost as public transport – but first the city will fight you tooth and nail to get you to use public transport for a reduced fare there. Using the Access-a-Ride service – you have to book your ride both ways in advance. Better hope your doctor’s appointment doesn’t run over, because if you’re late 3 times for a pickup, you’re off the service again.
          3) If you or a friend/relative can drive, depending on where you are you can expect to spend a lot of time looking for parking and often end up needing to park in a garage for again 400 to 2000% of the cost of the subway/bus fare. Not to mention needing to maintain having a vehicle in the first place with all the costs that involves – gas, insurance, wear & tear, etc.

          That’s your other options in a nutshell. And bringing your own folding cane/stool? If it’s crowded enough, using it is going to get you glares too as you will be taking up space that people could be standing in.

          The expectation is that we’re all doing the best we can with what we can, and none of us own the service or the space – so we try and are pushed to be kind to each other and acknowledge when somebody needs it *more* than we do and let them have it.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Note: My AAR knowledge is cumulative, I went to doublecheck myself and they’ve become more lenient on late/no-show situations, more than likely due to pushback about unreliability of situations like doctor’s appointment ending times and such.

            But the rest still applies.

        9. Artemesia*

          You give them up because that is the decent thing to do and is also the policy of public transport which makes clear that seats are surrendered to pregnant women, the disabled and the elderly. There are never enough seats, so those who need them should have them. How hard is this?

        10. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Clearly you do not understand how public transit works in big cities.

    3. CityMouse*

      There are literally signs all over the DC metro reminding people to give up seats to those who need them more. Some of them quote statutes, so I think those seats are guaranteed by law. Most people are not rich enough to afford that kind of transport every day but getting to work is a necessity.

    4. PizzaDog*

      Wouldn’t it be nice if you could book a seat on public transit? I’m sure more people would enjoy taking it.

      It’s not an expectation for someone to get up and offer their seat (or give it away when asked) to someone elderly, pregnant, disabled, feeling nauseous, etc etc etc ad nauseum. It’s common courtesy.

      That’s great that you don’t expect anyone to give up their seat for you. But that’s you, not everyone else.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      You can’t book a seat on my commuter train.

      I am glad not everyone thinks like you or I wouldn’t be able to go to work.

      1. CityMouse*

        Gosh yes. One if my coworkers is in a wheelchair and can’t drive. She literally depends on people making room for her on the train every single day.

    6. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Serious question: have you never used public transportation? Buses, subway or trams?

      1. LawLady*

        Honestly I suspect this is someone from a rural place. I’m from such a place and had no idea what the norms around seating on buses or commuter trains was like until I was living in Chicago, riding the el everyday. This person is thinking it’s like a plane seat that you’ve paid for and you’re asking someone else to switch.

  105. RB*

    This wasn’t the London tube, this was a train, per the LW. European trains have compartments. It seems like many of the commenters have missed that fact. Comparisons to what you’d do on the NY subway are not the most apt to this discussion. We don’t know where the bike rack was. It could be that they got off at different stops. If he got off earlier and the bike rack was outside the compartment or down the aisle he would have had to go back up the aisle against traffic to find her, causing problems for the other exiting passengers. I’m not sure I would have apologized if I had to do all that.

    2. London Engineer*

      There are actually plenty of trains in and around london that function pretty much like the tube. And I’m confused – tube trains and the NY subway have compartments as well? No where the the LW state he was using a bike rack – they might, or the might have been blocking the aisle, or have is pushed against the wall, we don’t know.

    3. Morning Glory*

      Train in this context, assuming the LW is American, most likely refers to public transportation like the subway.

      1. SoManyNamesInTenYears*

        Because the LW referred to higher education as “university”, rather than “college” or “my university”, I am leaning not American.

        1. Morning Glory*

          That is a good point. Rereading, I see the LW also said lift instead of elevator.

          1. CityMouse*

            Although that suggests this was the tube, which is pretty on par with the subway/metro/bart/el.

    4. CityMouse*

      All the major US systems I am familiar with (DC metro, Chicago el, BART) are called trains. It doesn’t sound like she was on Amtrack and something like the Metra VRE or similar commuter rail doesn’t make sense because you aren’t allowed to stand.

    5. PizzaDog*

      I think we all assumed it was public transport because she had the bike. I wouldn’t think that a train that you purchase a ticket for to travel a long distance would a) allow you on with bikes and b) not have assigned seating.

      I think the LW just put a train because it’s more generic – not like tube, metro, go train, etc. I know that I use train over metro when I talk to people not from my city.

      1. Natalie*

        Amtrak actually does have some kind of bike transport option on a few of their lines, but I believe the bike is transported with the luggage, not in the passenger compartment.

    6. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Swedish trains often don’t.

      And Sweden is in Europe last time I checked ;)

  106. Lauren*

    “I…feel it is extremely unfair to be rejected for something that has nothing to do with my performance and ability to do the job.”

    Honestly, about 50% of job hiring has nothing to do with performance and your ability to do the job. It can be about who another candidate knows, who you were rude to, who is the better looking candidate, who has the best connections, etc. The sooner you learn this, the better prepared you’ll be for the working world.

  107. Kateedoo*

    Okay, so there’s a couple things off about OP’s representation of events that leads me to believe this incident had nothing to do with OP not getting the job. I seriously doubt that CEO’s wife recognized OP the next day in the elevator and even if she did, it wouldn’t make sense that wife immediately (right before the interview, how convenient!) went to her husband and said, “hey is that person interviewing today because DO NOT give them a job”. It’s likely, even if OP was recognized, the wife brushed it off and went about her day. Rude people on the subway are a dime a dozen.
    I bet there are other reasons that OP did not get the job that could be many, some fair, some unfair, and OP is looking for something to blame the situation on. Which is a totally natural reaction! But sometimes you don’t get the job. Work hard, get an awesome reference from your internship and move on to the next opportunity.

  108. Casey*

    Flip side, as a mother, how do you raise kids to get up and give their seat and to be courteous? Honestly asking – I do my very best, but I’m wondering if there is more I can do?

    1. CityMouse*

      Modeling. Get up and give a seat yourself. If your kid is not old enough you can’t do it or that isn’t possible for other reasons, point out people who do it and explain to your kid (later if you think it is awkward) why that person did good.

    2. AthenaC*

      Probably the best way is through a combination of telling them exactly what courteous behavior you expect and modeling courteous behavior yourself.

      1. TranceBot*

        Ah, awesome question. I do not have kids, but wanted to tell a little story about what happened when I was a child and my mom needed to teach me a lesson about being courteous in public. I grew up in Eastern Europe and before moving to the US, we took public transport everywhere. It was almost always very crowded. One day we were taking a train home and I starting crying and having a temper tantrum. She asked me to calm down several times, and I would not. She then told me that if I wouldn’t stop my hysterics, we would have to get off the train and walk home (several miles). I did not stop my hysterics. At the next stop, we got off the train and started walking home. I stopped crying immediately, but it was too late. We walked all the way home that day. I have never cried on public transport again. She also aways gave up her seat to any people in need. I’d say teaching good manners is done by example and also by providing consequences for bad behavior.

    3. Allison*

      Definitely model it, also just tell them that they should give up their seat to anyone who looks like they’d have a bad time standing. That’s really what is it. It’s not about who deserves a more luxurious ride or who’s earned the right to sit down, it’s doing your part to make sure those worse off than you get what they need. Make sure you emphasize it’s about being kind – not chivalrous, not traditional, just kind and considerate.

      And maybe see if you can get them used to standing up. They may be more willing to stand if it seems like no big deal.

    4. neverjaunty*

      You do it yourself. Telling them to do it doesn’t work, and it especially doesn’t work if you stay seated.

  109. Observer*

    OP, you’ve got a ton of response. Something I didn’t see (although I didn’t read every single response, so I may have missed it.)

    You are very certain that it’s the CEO’s wife that caused you to not get the job. Yet, in the very same paragraph you mention that you were given some feedback about skills you need to develop. You dismiss that as irrelevant and “that’s it.”

    I find your reaction to be pretty shocking, to be honest. You got actionable feedback, and you say “that’s all”?! Most people would kill for that kind of feedback.

    And to just assume that it’s not really relevant to you? Why? I don’t care what the HR person said to you. It doesn’t matter how great he thinks your are. The idea that you are so great that any lack in your skills could not be the reason you didn’t get a job is just amazing, and not in a good way.

    Lastly, getting along is what is known as a “soft skill”. What means is that it’s a skill that is hard to quantify, but is still quite necessary. If, in the judgement of the CEO, you are lacking in soft skills, that IS relevant to your ability to get the job done.

    1. Artemesia*

      And it is quite possible there has been evidence of this rudeness or failure to get along in the internship work that someone on the job noticed. This sort of thing is rarely an isolated moment.

  110. Shayland*

    As someone who is disabled and under 3o, I would never tell anyone what my specific disability that requires me to sit in the disabled seating area. I’m pretty visibly disabled (use a service dog and sometimes a cane.) and if someone asked me to give up my seat (which has happened) I would just say no, or possibly ignore them, as I’m fairly often mistaken as deaf anyway.

    1. Tiger Snake*

      And you don’t have to. “I’m sorry, I can’t – I need to sit.” would be perfectly fine, and any reasonable person would accept that. I don’t think anyone expects on this board is expecting you to go into medical reasons either – its that not all the comments are fully explaining themselves well.

      But you don’t just ignore someone whose asked you a direct request, even if they’re a bit demanding and rude about it. You respond, even if that has to be a refusal.
      Ignoring someone is an extreme reaction, and should be reserved for extreme circumstances. Otherwise you’re the one escalating a situation, when you had perfectly good methods to de-escalating it.

      1. Shayland*

        I just want to to say I wrote my original comment after a seizure, and then I had another seizure, so nothing makes sense right now.

        1. Tiger Snake*

          I do not know what you want me to do with that statement. But I hope you feel better soon.

          1. Shayland*

            I didn’t know if your comment was the sort were not responding would be rude, and I didn’t want to risk being rude. So I gave the information I did to explain why I wasn’t able to continue with the conversation. In addition, if my original comment sounded weird or didn’t really make sense in the context of the letter writer, I wanted to explain that as well.

            Thank you for your well wishes. Seizures suck.

  111. Newbie to AAM*

    Is there any easy way to find out if/when the LW responds? As a former bus-rider-with-a-bicycle, this discussion is fascinating – but there are way too many comments for me to do any kind of useful search for the LW. I’m really curious to hear their response to this.

    Thank you, AAM, for an awesome site! I wish I had known about this years ago!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Unfortunately there isn’t. Usually when they respond, they use OP or LW and so you can search for that … but no other way to do it. The OP hasn’t responded here so far though.

      1. OCD*

        Could something be added to the commenting rules about this, and in the email you send to let them know their letter was posted? Not a requirement, but a suggestion for better interaction with commenters.

        I always love coming to the comments to see if the OP has responded or has further updates. If there was a standard name for them to use when commenting, it would make it easier to search since “OP” and “LW” appears in the middle of a LOT of words.

        Maybe “Letter Writer #1” etc?

  112. DrAtos*

    I agree with everyone that what the OP did wasn’t the kindest gesture. When I see an old person on the bus or train, and no one else gets up for them, I usually get up and let that person sit down. At the same time, if I have loads of groceries, a suitcase, or other large items, I will remain seated unless someone asks me if they can have my seat. We all have bad days when we just want to sit and relax during the ride, especially if we are carrying something large. I have done things that I am not so proud of outside of work, however, our world is smaller than we realize. When you are in the vicinity of your workplace, you can run into someone who knows an important person who can have a direct impact on your career or social standing. It was incredibly bad luck that the person who wanted your seat happened to be married to the CEO of the company where you wanted to work. That being said, because you said you were in college, I am assuming you are a young and healthy person, which is probably why the CEO’s wife expected you to give up your seat. The polite thing to do was to have given it up or apologize and explain that it would have been hard to stand and balance your bike or whatever excuse you could come up with. Staining her coat without apologizing was also rude. While it is extremely unfortunate that you didn’t get the job, it is a costly lesson that is better learned early on in your life rather than later when you have less of an incentive to change for the better. Respecting your elders is more commonly taught in Asia than in the USA, but these rules apply wherever you live or work. That has served me well when I worked abroad as well as in the USA because I am also a young person and my supervisors have always had a good relationship with me because I respect their years of work and life experience. Even if I disagree I address them with the respect that they deserve.

  113. Ramona Flowers*

    One point that’s only been briefly touched on from what I can see: if I was considering your candidacy and heard about this, I would be worried about how you might represent my organisation in public. Sure, we all agreed it was off to actually report the Tinder weirdo to his employer. But people do judge on the information they have and if, say, you were reading work papers on a train and acted like this then you might make your employer look bad and leave that person with a poor impression – perhaps their first or only impression. That makes you a risk.

  114. Jillyan*

    The title of the question is incorrect. The CEO’s wife did not ruin your job prospects. You did. Learn the lesson this experience has taught you and strive to be better. Even if you did not want to give up your seat, there are a million ways you could have handled it better. We all make mistakes. We have to learn from them or we’ll keep making them.

    1. Stella's Mom*

      +1 for this. It is about accepting responsibility for your own actions and the fallout if said actions incur a negative response.

  115. Sam Foster*

    There are many fishy things about LW’s story including but not limited to the preening self-importance (all my coworkers appreciate me) to the implausible (HR has assured me repeatedly the job is mine) to the ability to identify the CEO’s wife (balancing a bike, reading materials and trying to navigate off a crowded train but also able to memorize the woman’s face). My take is that LW has a very egocentric view of the world and has constructed a scenario to place blame elsewhere.

  116. RealisticNYCer*

    Look, everyone’s getting down on the OP/LW, but as a city woman who has always worked/lived in NYC, here’s the reality:
    • Yup, OP/LW most likely didn’t get the job b/c of this incident
    • Yup, OP/LW’s behavior in this situation–regardless of age/character–is totally the norm and not considered rude for city norms
    • Look, you can argue that you should be kind to everyone, etc., and as I’ve gotten older I am more kind/outgoing to others. But the fact remains: NO ONE in a big city should expect a seat on a subway because of age or health. PERIOD. I’ve been on the verge of giving birth; on crutches, on my way to the ICU, and bleeding profusely after being pushed down subways stairs by impatient people, and never once was I offered–nor did I ask for–someone to give up a seat. Simply being old does not qualify.

    The only thing that pisses me off about OP/LW is the decision to take a bike on the train and then ruin someone’s outfit–without acknowledging it, apologizing profusely, etc. Now, that’s not cool.

    Thoughts? I welcome them, esp from midwesterners/small town peeps

    1. amanda_cake*

      I find your thoughts a little frightening. Like that attitude seems to be the problem with a lot of things in the world. No one cares about anyone else. For reference, I have never set foot in a subway in my life. I grew up in a small town (470 people) in a small county (18,000 people over 602 square miles). I now live in a small town that to me is big (24,000 people in 20 square miles). I live in Virginia. I would give an old person my seat if we were somewhere that an old person would need one. I hold the door open. I ask people how they are doing and people generally don’t ask me because I give them an answer other than the standard “good”.

      The OP was rude and I wouldn’t hire him for any sort of position. Being nice never killed anyone and you never know who is watching.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I find your thoughts a little frightening. Like that attitude seems to be the problem with a lot of things in the world. No one cares about anyone else.

        You hit the nail on the head. It’s really about basic human decency and it seems we as a society are seriously lacking that these days.

    2. Jessica*

      I would say that the moral of this story isn’t about whether it’s appropriate to give up a seat when asked, and what one person owes another in regard to the social contract. It’s that you never know when the next person you run into will actually have some significant influence on your life. This is a perfect example of how a chance encounter ended up wrecking two months of hard work, and may have further professional repercussions down the line. Don’t just be nice for ethical reasons, be nice because of blatant self-interest! Make good impressions. The universe has a damn perverse sense of humor, and keeping your professional face on in public is a good way to CYA.

    4. Jess*

      I’ve lived in cities as big as New York, been pregnant in a bunch of them, and always – even in Shanghai, the place with the most indifferent public transport riders – people will either offer their seats when they perceive a need or give their seats when they’re asked without being massive dicks about it. I’ve noticed that’s particularly the case when the issue is age; YMMV with individuals during pregnancy but I never had to stand when I didn’t want to, anywhere.

      If you’re right about your city, sorry about your awful city, but luckily for the rest of us it isn’t representative of what you think are city norms.

    5. neeko*

      I don’t know what trains you are taking in NYC but that has not been my experience at all.

      1. Samantha*

        Yeah, I was going to say I’m a born and bred New Yorker and I’ve seen some pretty rude things. It’s one thing to be all those things you mentioned (pregnant, bleeding, on crutches) and another to specifically ask for a seat and be not only denied but ignored. And even if you think as a New Yorker you are expected to not get a seat, maybe her father was an out of state visitor? It might seem like people are piling on the LW, and maybe some are, but sometimes when people act entitled, this is a way people can show them their behavior is harmful

      2. animaniactoo*

        Ditto here – born and bred NYC, been using public transport to get myself around for 3+ decades and it is not my experience at all either.

        Ignoring the question IS rude both in my opinion and my experience of how others react to someone who does. I’ve rarely had to ask for a seat, but I was given one when I did – once when I was pretty close to heat exhaustion and once when I was ambulatory post-op.

        I’ve been pushed, shoved, and all the rest described – but not asking for a seat when you need one is your choice. People will work with you if you ask. Yeah, you’ll come across some snot who won’t, but that’s rarer than the person next to them who will stand up and say “here, take mine”.

    6. LawBee*

      I lived in Chicago for years. This definitely was not my experience. And in my many many MANY trips to NYC, including subway travel, I saw lots of kindness offered to others.

      And good lord, why didn’t you ask for a seat if you were that injured?

    7. seejay*

      I live in San Francisco, which is a big city. We have subways and trains, and yes there can be rudeness, but there’s also lots of kindness and helpfulness. People will give up their seats to the elderly, disabled, children and pregnant.

      It’s not the reality of big cities.

    8. Tsalmoth*

      Sorry, but as someone who grew up in NYC and lives in the Boston area and has used both public transit systems a lot, that second bullet point is horse hooey. Period. I’ve seen people give up seats all the time, and I’ve NEVER seen someone not give up a seat when asked.

      (Totally agree about the bike, though.)

    9. Observer*

      Thoughts from another New Yorker.

      I totally disagree with you. The behavior described by the OP has NOT been normal in my experience. I’ve given up my seat, and I’ve had seats offered to me more times than I can count.

      As for the bike thing, we’re on the same page. That, by itself is a huge mark against them.

      In any case, I’m not so convinced that this was the whole story.

  117. GraceW*

    Did the LW really think that HR would somehow listen to his/her plea? Is this letter a fake?

    1. Y*

      Is this letter a fake?

      What does it matter? It’s anonymous, so if it’s real, then you have to just treat it as a hypothetical situation; if it’s fake, then it is a hypothetical situation.

      Real, fake, makes no difference.

    2. The IT Manager*

      Yes. The LW was all about “fairness” and their how hard they worked (not even outcome of their work) should trump this. This is a common theme in many letters especially from young people who are upset when the world is not fair and think their effort deserves reward. There’s no reason to think this is fake.

      I have worked so hard to get this job and feel it is extremely unfair to be rejected for something that has nothing to do with my performance and ability to do the job.

      1. Y*

        This is a common theme in many letters especially from young people who are upset when the world is not fair and think their effort deserves reward

        Do you think this is to do with them having difficulty adjusting from school, where rewards are ‘fair’ in that if you get, say, 80%, then you get a ‘B’, and everyone who gets 80% gets a ‘B’, and all ‘B’s are equal, to the real world, where jobs are limited, and you can do everything right and still not get the job you wanted for any of a million different reasons?

        Am I explaining this well? The point is that in school your rewards are determined entirely by factors inherent to you or under your control. You are clever, you do the revision you get an ‘A’. You are dumb, or you are clever but you play video games instead of revising, you fail. But this is only possible because there is no shortage of ‘A’s — you getting one doesn’t stop anyone else getting one, and if everyone got 95%, then everyone would get an ‘A’.

        Then when they move to the real world where one person getting a job means nobody else can have it, they discover that who gets the job is, more often than not, determined by factors the applicants themselves have no control over. This feels ‘unfair’ and so leads to someone feeling that if they put in the effort, and got the results, they ‘deserve’ the job: because in school, they would have got the reward?

        I’m not sure how to solve it. I was going to suggest more winner/loser competitions in schools — sports tournaments, music competitions, etc — to teach people that sometimes there is only one winner, and that you can be the best you can be and still lose because someone else is better, but even that doesn’t quite work because there still it’s ‘fair’ because if you lose it’s because there was somebody better. But in real life you can often lose a job not because the other person was objectively ‘better’ than you but for reasons that have nothing to do with you, and that’s just the way the world is and you have to learn not to take it personally.

        1. sam*

          During my first week of law school, one of my professors had a little sidebar about grades. I was at an Ivy league school, and he was explaining how the grading system for first year classes was a “forced curve”. And for some of us, it was going to be a really hard adjustment, because every single one of us, by virtue of having gotten into that top ten law school, had always been at or near the top of our class in terms of grades.

          I’ll always remember “you all came from the top 10% of your previous schools, but you cannot have 100% of you in the top 10% of this class. It has nothing to do with your worth as a person. It’s simply a mathematical impossibility.”

          1. Y*

            you all came from the top 10% of your previous schools, but you cannot have 100% of you in the top 10% of this class. It has nothing to do with your worth as a person. It’s simply a mathematical impossibility

            That’s bizarre. That would make it mathematically impossible to compare grades year-to-year. What a stupid idea.

            1. sam*

              It’s bizarre that 100% of a student body can’t all be in the top ten percent of that student body?

              1. Observer*

                No, forced curves. Because the top 10% of one class is likely to look very different from the top 10% of the next class, but you can never tell the difference. You can’t look at any sort of metrics for teachers, admitting practices, nothing.

                It also makes it hard to know well someone did because you have no idea who else was in that group. So, if I want someone really good at X, how do I know if the guy who got an A is better at X than the guy who got a B? If the guy who got an a was in a class of doofuses, and the guy with the B was in a class of geniuses, then the guy with the B is actually probably better than the guy who got an A.

                The bottom line is that forced curves are a really bad idea for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with fairness.

                1. Y*

                  Exactly: if the standard required to get an A, or any grade, varies wildly from year to year, as it must under this bizarre system, then all grading is meaningless.

  118. Oscar Madisoy*

    I’ve just skimmed the responses, but one thing that seems to have gone ignored, or at least un-noticed, is this:

    “I was approached by a lady who asked me, rather rudely, to give my seat to a man, her father, who was travelling with her.”

    Could the woman’s rudeness have played a factor in the OP’s decision to ignore her? If someone approached me like that, coming across with an attitude, it wouldn’t exactly put me in a “do the right thing” frame of mind.

    1. Jess*

      This is an advice site about work, not about whether you deserve to be rude back to people who are rude to you. If the OP was right about what happened, your attitude would have got the better of you, made you repay rudeness with rudeness to someone who it was definitely not in your interests to be rude to, and you wouldn’t have got the job either. Did you really need that exploration?

    2. Ann*

      Actually quite a few people pointed out that you give up your seat when you are able bodied, no matter how you are asked, that is the norm.

      A few said they would not if the person asking was rude.

      And the idea was floated that the OP appears to have a different idea of rude or does not share a standard idea of rude and the CEOs wife might not have appeared rude but maybe abrupt or even just asked.

  119. Jenny*

    I’m not sure why you would ignore someone who’s speaking to you instead of saying “Sorry I need to read this before I get off” or “Sorry I need to sit.” And it makes zero difference that you weren’t in a reserved handicapped seat!! Did you apologize when you damaged her coat?

  121. Herbert*

    Dear Alison
    This is OP/LW, many thanks for responding to my question and for your advice. I was wondering whether you do respond to actual emails so appreciations for that. I now also read the comments from readers and was surprised about the volume of those.
    I just wanted to let you know that I was a bit impatient (as not being sure there would be an answer) and went to talk to the HR about the whole thing. The HR denied knowing anything about the incident and claimed the actual reason was that the second top candidate was “a better fit”. They also alluded to being “over confident” during the interview and advised about “life skills” development, whatever that means. They also advised against offering to pay the dry cleaning or mentioning this to the CEO at all. They said I could speak to him and thank him for the opportunity and present myself in a polite way. I will do this before leaving my placement here. At the end, I want a good reference from the company so do not want to leave on a sour note.

    I have since also reflected on what happened. I am still pretty sure the public transport incident was a decisive aspect in the decision. I am also still super upset about it. However, I do acknowledge that you have a point. I wish have been told the receptionist/janitor/security guard story by career services at my uni. We get a lot of tips about how to write your resume or cover letter and how to conduct yourself at an interview, but not this real life recommendations. I will keep it in mind for the next time.

    Thank you!

    PS: Few clarifications for those speculating. It happened on the London overground. The CEO really does make final decisions in these hires, since it is a special training/employment programme which costs the company some money. The programme is his “baby” and he is very invested in it. The HR actually never told me the interview was a formality, I understood it from the discussions with other colleagues but my recruiter was surprised I was not selected. The CEO wife was not yelling at me when asking for the seat and on reflection, it was a standard and legitimate ask.

    1. Em Too*

      Thank you for updating! This is only speculation of course, but ‘life skills’ might cover things like how you interact with your co-workers: are you respectful? Polite? Understanding of their needs and preferences? Willing to help them even if it costs you some time, if that’s best for the company, or do you focus on getting your own tasks done? And how do you respond to feedback and guidance?

      I note you describe the person who got the job as the ‘second top candidate’.

    2. LBK*

      Based on this follow up, I think you still have some reflecting to do on your perspective, self-awareness and humility, which is probably what they meant by “life skills”. It seems to me that you’re straight up disbelieving that they could’ve chosen someone else over you for any reason other than the train incident – as Em Too points out, you even go so far as to imply the person who got hired was second-best to you, which is something you have absolutely no way of knowing is true because you aren’t inside the hiring process and you can’t know everything the hiring manager knows. There’s a certain irony in you disagreeing with their feedback about being overly confident – in and of itself perhaps an overly confident assessment of yourself.

      I worry that you’re taking the wrong lesson away from this – you shouldn’t be nice to random people because you never know when they might influence your job prospects or otherwise impact your life. You should be nice to them because they’re people and you should generally respect and be kind to everyone. You shouldn’t thank the CEO for the opportunity because you want to ensure you have a good reference, you should do it because it’s the polite and professional thing to do. It feels as though you’re coming from a mindset that the way you treat someone should be relative to what they can do for you, especially career-wise, and that alarms me. You have to be really careful with that kind of transactional thinking because while it works in some situations, in others it can be very transparent and people like myself who aren’t interested in playing that game won’t respond well to it. You say that your career center doesn’t talk about “real life” recommendations, but consider that work and life aren’t two separate universes – yes, there’s different norms and expectations when you’re at work, but the office is still “real life” and your coworkers don’t stop being human when they walk in the door.

      All in all, I don’t think insisting on your worldview and the unimpeachability of your talent is going to serve you well in the long run. I’m not saying that no one will ever have an inaccurate or unfair view of you, but especially this early in your career, it’s wise to generally assume that people who have more experience than you have a better grasp on what makes a good employee and have a more accurate perception of you as a worker than you might have from inside your own head. Self-awareness is unbelievably critical to being successful and while you’re still developing that skill, it’s important to be really, really open to feedback and genuinely consider people’s criticism.

      Hopefully you’ll take some time to really absorb all the comments, especially the ones that are a bit less spicy and more constructive – although there’s also value in taking in how strongly some people have reacted to your letter and considering how that might align with the way others view you but might not be so willing to tell you about it. Good luck.

      1. CMart*

        “I worry that you’re taking the wrong lesson away from this – you shouldn’t be nice to random people because you never know when they might influence your job prospects or otherwise impact your life. You should be nice to them because they’re people and you should generally respect and be kind to everyone.”

        Indeed. Herbert, if you’re reading these follow ups, I highly suggest seeking out the video made of David Foster Wallace’s commencement speech, called “This Is Water”. It really helps give great perspective to get out of your own personal bubble and truly consider the people around you.

        Perhaps it’s because my mom held many of those “insignificant” and often overlooked jobs (grocery bagger, bus driver, receptionist, floor sweeper) that it seems shocking to me that you wish you had been taught that janitors/receptionists/security guards are people worthy of consideration. The people who work those jobs are people just like you, even if you’ve never thought to pay attention to them. People deserve your respect and understanding simply because they are people, not because they’re some sort of pawn to maneuver in your own personal game of Life Chess.

    3. Nancy Drew*

      I read many of yesterday’s comments. I’m glad to hear from the OP. I think you may benefit from reading the comments here a bit more carefully and open-mindedly, which may give you a better understanding of what’s meant by “life skills.” For example, life skills can include getting a better understanding of social norms (such as how to respond appropriately to the wife’s request on the train and apologize appropriately after damaging her coat) and realizing things are often not black and white (such as believing you didn’t have to give up your seat because it wasn’t designated as handicapped).

      Also, your quoting the words “better fit” and “overconfident” gives the impression that you may be slightly dismissive of them or be discounting them as genuine reasons for the hiring decision. I encourage you to understand (1) that even if you were qualified, someone else could legitimately be equally or more qualified and a better fit, and (2) that the language you chose to use in your original letter is consistent with an assessment that you can tend to be overconfident.

      I think you have very solid evidence that the bike incident was not the determining factor (and possibly not a factor whatsoever) in the hiring decision, and this experience provides you with a chance to work on the soft skills (life skills) and ares for development that have been pointed out to you both by the company and the commenters here.

      1. Laura*

        Herbert, I live in London and am about to get on the tube. It is *so* not the right thing to do to sit down when you have a bike to hold onto as well, even a folding Brompton, let alone read. Considerate cyclists stand next to their bikes and move them as necessary – also because if you have just ridden and you are sweaty, this way you can hopefully air out rather than sweat into the upholstery. Please, please do this in future.

        I think the fact that you acknowledge, on reflection, that the CEO’s wife was actually not rude is a huge point in your favour. Good luck!

        1. Laura*

          Just to clarify – I mentioned the tube but it’s the same rule for the overground – even better, as you can pull yourself into those padded bum-rests and hopefully tuck your bike in front of you. I was on that yesterday and a cyclist was doing exactly that and remaining alert every station in case he needed to adjust the bike. Please do that.

    4. Observer*

      From what you say, I would be willing to bet that to the extent that this incident had anything to do with it, it was because it set the seal on a real concern that the CEO (and possibly some others had.)

      It’s worth pointing out that HR did actually give you some pointers as to what kinds of “life skills” they are looking for. Notice that they mentioned that you came off as over-confident. You were – you assumed that the job was yours for that taking, and that not getting it was someone taking something from you that belonged to you. You need to leave that behind – arrogant and entitled behavior doesn’t do you any good. It also speaks to your ability to get along with people. While it’s true that you need to be able to st boundaries and not let people treat you like a door mat, that’s a two way street. And occasionally extending yourself for someone is also a good idea.

      You’ve gotten a lot of good feedback from your HR department. Don’t waste it.

    5. Observer*

      I’ve just reread this whole set of threads, and your response here. Here is another “life skill” you need to learn. That is to learn to take responsibility for your own behavior. You acted like a jerk and it came back to bite, apparently hard. And now you are blaming your university. Because as an adult you can’t expected to know that “what goes round come round”? Because adults can’t be expected to know that people don’t always wear their identities where you can easily see them?

      Basically, your response here presents my nightmare scenario, as a potential supervisor. You dismiss any feedback that you don’t like or that doesn’t feed into your preferred narrative. And you don’t take the least bit of responsibility for your actions.

      You may be every bit as smart as you think. And you may even be as hard working as you see yourself. But, if you don’t learn to actually accept feedback you don’t like, and to take responsibility for your behavior, it’s going to hold you back in a big way. People are not going to want to hire you if they realize this. People won’t want to work with you, either, which is a huge issue in almost every job in the universe. But, even in a role as an individual contributor, it’s going to keep you from advancing. You see, no one is perfect at their job. One key thing that differentiates the really high performers from the rest is what happens what something goes wrong.

    6. M-C*

      “I wish have been told the receptionist/janitor/security guard story by career services at my uni.”. In other words, still blaming others because -you- were caught at behaving like a boor. Don’t blame anybody but yourself. Sheesh.

  122. AnoninDC*

    The title of this post should be changed to read “I ruined my job prospects.” (I know the OP doesn’t get to choose the title.)
    Take some accountability for your own behavior and actions, for goodness sake.

    1. LBK*

      Alison mentioned above that for this letter she actually did use the OP’s email subject because she thought it accurately summed up his perception of the situation, and in this case perspective was a relevant factor.

  123. IntersectionalityMuch*

    I love how race and gender aren’t being factored into this very much from the responses I’ve seen. I speak from personal experience of it being DEMANDED that I give up my seat as a woman of color for someone else (regardless of age, disability, etc), when plenty of able-bodied people (not of color) were in more accessible seats than my own while traveling on public transportation.

    With that said, I don’t think this OP can expect anything to come from complaining to HR or reaching out about dry cleaning. What’s done is done. You cannot change someone’s mind, whether they’re in the wrong – ignorantly so or not – or whether you were in the wrong.

    1. Sarah*

      I’m confused, was there something in the post that indicated the OP is a woman of color?

  124. Ray*

    It’s incredibly telling that you posted that the CEO’s wife cost you the position, and not that fact that you were not compassionate to an older person. At the very, very least, you forgot that someone is watching at all times and you NEVER know who is connected to whom. So treat everyone well; primarily because it’s the right thing to do, but secondarily, because, dude, don’t be stupid…..

    1. Labgirl*

      I agree completely. “CEO’s wife cost me the job” sets the tone for the whole letter to me. There is not much, if any, responsibility taken by the LW for the situation they created.

      I think the discussion of he unfairness the LW believes they are experiencing is very telling also. I do think this is a transition from school/internship attitude to workplace attitude. Schools and universities usually try to maintain some framework of fairness. Once you are out in the workplace that depends on your coworkers and superiors, and in very extreme cases the court system. It really is a shift that takes some adjustment time. I don’t think the LW is there yet.

      I read a lot, but not all, of the posts and didn’t see very many comments about not wanting to work with someone who did something like this. I think the LW feels like the CEO’s wife is doing this TO him, as in trying to get back at him. When presented with this scenario I just wouldn’t want to work with someone who did this. Yes, we all have bad, stressful days but if I was hiring and I had an equally or closely equally qualified candidate who DIDN’T do this, I know which one I’m picking.

      It may have been just a bad day, but if it weren’t and the new hire IS rude/thoughtless/not helpful I don’t want to be kicking myself down the line when I’m in a PI with them and could have avoided this situation altogether if I’d just taken that one candid incident into account.

  125. Laurel*

    OP needs to stop making excuses and blaming the CEO’s wife for her own screw-up. Politely telling someone you can’t give up your seat, is understandable if it’s within reason, but completely ignoring someone because you need to “prepare for your interview” is ridiculous and I’m appalled they thought that was even remotely okay. It doesn’t matter if you aren’t sitting in a disabled section or not, a lot of disabled people ride the bus to get around because they can’t drive themselves. If OP is reading this and still doesn’t understand how they were in the wrong, they might as well not even look for another job. Treat people the way you would want to be treated.

  126. Frederick*

    I truly hope the OP can reflect on the entire situation and come away with the proper lessons learned.
    After that it will be time to put the experience and the resultant emotions to rest in order that the OP can move on with their life in an effective, productive manner.

  127. Kelly*

    I sat stunned when I read the OP just ignored the request to let her father sit in the seat. I can’t imagine thinking that was even remotely okay to do. At the very least you apologize but decline the request but to ignore her completely, I really don’t understand that logic. Even as a woman I would immediately give up my seat without having to be asked for anyone elderly.

    A person’s true character is how they behave when they think no one is looking…in this case the OP had a train full of people that he didn’t even care if they were looking and it possibly came back to bite him in the butt. I hope it’s a lesson learned but I still question his basic character. Will the lesson learned be to pretend to have compassion for others or will he actually develop compassion for others?

  128. Taylor*

    I think a lot of people are being way too hard on the poor OP. She ignored someone who was rude and didn’t end up helping an elderly person. She probably felt too awkward to say much about the coat, given the previous situation.

    The OP didn’t perhaps do the morally rightmost thing, I think we can all agree on that. Ultimately the older gentleman needed the seat more. But let’s put it in perspective; it was a seat on a bus, requested by someone who wasn’t being very friendly. I can fairly easily empathize with the OP’s decision making, we all make mistakes or aren’t as selfless as we can be. I feel like some people are talking like she’s a terrible person, which just isn’t the case, and is way over the top.

    We can all likely agree that not helping the older man was the wrong call. But ignoring someone who is being rude is a lot more ambiguous. And even still, it wasn’t a great thing to do, but within her rights, and probably resulted in very little, if any, actual harm. It wasn’t a very selfless decision or a very kind one, but it also wasn’t a monstrous atrocity, and one plenty of people could have ended up making after a crappy day, or when faced with someone who is insulting. We should just be kind and empathetic to the OP, and not tearing her apart unfairly.

    She wasn’t totally perfect, its okay, its human.

    Sorry OP that this forum turned against you so hard. I’m rooting for you!

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