open thread – July 26-27, 2019

by Alison Green on July 26, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Research for days*

    In light of last week’s letter regarding the employee who panicked every time the company spent money, I want to hear stories about the extravagance you’ve experienced while working? What crazy thing did your company spend money on? How much money did your boss spend at the super fancy restaurant in Conference City, USA? Stories about cheap bosses are fun, but spending money is so much more fun.

    I’m lucky, my company is very generous when it comes to booking travel and expenses incurred while traveling. At this point I would never be able to work for a company that had strict travel policies and nickel-and-dimed their employees. I just don’t have the energy to deal with that nonsense. I’m 34 years old. I’m not sharing a hotel room, driving a crazy distance, or eating fast food every night while traveling.

    1. Amber Rose*

      So, there’s a big festival here once a year. This year my boss rented out a high end bar downtown, the whole bar, invited a ton of “business contacts” (read: friends) and paid for all their drinks and food. I didn’t get the final numbers but my supervisor said it was well over 50K.

      2. Third or Nothing!*

        Definitely not as crazy as some of these stories, but my company rents out the biggest suite in our local MLB stadium every year for a family night (employees plus spouses and children). This year there will be about 100 people. Tickets, a buffet, and unlimited alcohol are all provided.

        1. CoffeeOnMyMind*

          My company used to rent out an entire NFL stadium for a huge company party twice a year.

        2. TPS Cover Sheet*

          Isn’t that mad really. I used to work for a company that rented out a hockey rink for the office christmas parties. They do venue stuff at these, like concerts etc. off-season so it wasn’t that weird, and we had something like 3000 people scattered around town, so trying to find a place we’d all fit was a challenge. Normal catering, you got some drink coupons but it wasn’t a totally free bar. Speeches, corporate bs, a stand-up comedienne and they actually had some company guys that had started a band way back when perform… that was funkadelic… So nothing over the top really.

    2. Agent J*

      I worked for a tech start-up who’s CMO was really into the brand and client relationships. I was the marketing manager in charge of “swag” and other branded items used for events. The CMO asked me to order a few hundred pairs of custom Vans shoes in the company colors in every size and half size available. I can’t remember how much it cost but it was super expensive…and our clients didn’t even like them! The CMO wound up creating a company store and selling the shoes to employees at a discount and using them as giveaways for employees and conferences.

      1. Kes*

        Oh man, I thought you were going to say they gave the shoes to you (employees) as swag (which would be complicated enough with sizing – I assume that’s why I have just about every item of company swag clothing except shoes). Trying to give shoes to clients as swag seems complicated and weird. Selling the shoes to your employees also seems weird, I like getting free swag but I don’t know if I’d buy it (although technically we do have a site/catalog, but I don’t know anyone who has actually bought any).

        1. Random tech co*

          I work at a tech company and have about 12 shirts with our various logos from over the years… plus hats, high end water bottles, sunglasses, backpacks, hoodies, Bluetooth speakers, mouse pads, vinyl stickers, pop sockets, like basically any typical swag you can think of, I have it or have had it. But we still have a brand store in the Silicon Valley headquarters campus that tons of people shop at. You’d be surprised – I have some reusable baggo shopping bags I bought with the logo, and I bought a rainbow logo water bottle when we started carrying pride gear and a friend of mine bought the pride converse sneakers with the logo on it.

      2. Mimi Me*

        I worked as a temp for a window company. They gave all the employees (temps included!) New Balance sneakers. We got to select the color and size we wanted and a few days later they arrived. The pair I chose retails for over $100.

    3. Ali G*

      At Old Job, the company founders would regularly take private jets from near HQ to our industrial sites. They would land close by, have meetings, give a tour, whatever, and then fly back. They would also jet would-be investors from the airport, etc. I get why they did it – their time is money, literally, and the alternative is a 3+ hour drive each way (with no traffic). But, once the CEO’s EA was out and she told me she left a document on her desk that I needed the CEO to sign. She said I could get it and give it to him if I needed it that day (which I did). I accidentally found an invoice from the private jet company. It was over $40k (US) for ONE TRIP. There are people at that company who don’t make $40k in a year. I was astounded.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I worked for a non-profit that would send the private plane to pick up board members for the board meetings. It was a healthcare facility and the plane was used to move emergent patients, but they would also use it (at $15,000 a pop) to shuffle board members around. It turned my stomach when I found out how expensive it was.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        This sounds like the insurance company I used to work for. I always thought it was cool the CEOs had a plane and personal drivers, lol. They are #goals for real.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          That second sentence was weird – I should have said a private plane with pilot and personal car service with drivers.

      3. Booksalot*

        I used to work for a publishing company that was a subsidiary of a larger imprint in NYC, which is three hours away. The owners of my company (husband and wife) regularly hired a limo to commute to the parent company. Even if they wanted to avoid wear and tear on their personal vehicles, which is totally reasonable, you’d think a modest rental would suffice.

      5. Hope Springs*

        I worked for a company that owned a plane, with the pilots on staff. They justified it due the company having various locations across the country. The company started going downhill, and the plane was one of the first casualties.

    4. 2 hours to vacation*

      Not really extravagant, but something I get some joy out of. I am part of a buddy program at work where every few months I’ll be assigned to a new hire and take them out for coffee and a quick lunch a few times in their first six months. The meals themselves are cheap, usually less than $35 for the two of us, but I tip as much as I think I can get away with. For our coffee trips I usually do a 100% tip, closer to 50% for lunches.

      I don’t know if our accountant has ever noticed, or would even care considering I don’t do any travel or client meals in my role. I’m sure she has bigger fish to fry.

      1. Summer Friday*

        We have a similar program. We get $75 and can use it for lunches, coffee, etc. Some people do multiple less expensive things and others do one fancy lunch. I’m in the one fancy lunch camp.

      2. DerJungerLudendorff*

        I’m pretty sure fixing it would cost them more due to hours worked and lost morale.

    5. Mbarr*

      I’m happy my company had a good laundry policy while travelling… Cause the hotel they booked me at in the Philippines was stupid expensive. $130 for washing something like 9 pieces of clothing.

      I needed it though:
      A) cause it was humid and I was always sweating and
      B) I got food poisoning and there was splash back.

      2. Just Elle*

        I know this thread is supposed to be about extravagance and not stinginess, but…

        At my company there was a merger that required many employees to be traveling, flying city to city, for 2-3 weeks straight. A coworker was furious, because the company paid one person’s extra bag fee for all those flights, but refused her $9 reimbursement request for laundry. She literally went to a laundromat and did the laundry herself, and the company still wouldn’t pay for it. Ironically, our company doesn’t even require receipts for expenses under $25, so if she’d reported it as a ‘snack’ on her expense report it would have been paid. I

    6. no, the other Laura*

      Holiday parties. Oh boy, the holiday parties. Notoriously Cheap Company got bought by Notoriously Spendthrift Company and the holiday parties went from a small group gathering at a local restaurant to a huge site-wide thing with multiple live bands, a DJ after the bands left, catered fancy hors d’oeuvres and buffet supper. However, very few of the legacy folks from Spendthrift Company were at our Cheap Company party, so we all kinda stood around being awkward geeks. Thereafter, holiday parties at local museums where they rent the whole museum for the event, holiday parties at fancy resorts that cost $300/night, holiday parties where just the cheese-and-crackers display was so artfully done that nobody wanted to touch it to actually eat the food.

      Also, the first time I went out with the Sales crew as a technical representative to take a customer out to dinner was enlightening. $200-300 bottles of wine, 4 bottles for a table of 6 people in addition to cocktails, and just about one of everything on the menu.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Ha! This also sounds like my former employer! They hire A-list musicians/singers to perform at their holiday parties and they rent out a local venue that hosts the city’s opera, symphony, and ballet. They also give away uber expensive door prizes.

      2. Exhausted Trope*

        “holiday parties at local museums where they rent the whole museum for the event”
        Literally my dream company holiday party!

    7. NewBoss2016*

      At OldJob, five us traveled to an awesome tourist city for a conference for Monday-Tuesday. We were having so much fun exploring the sights at night, that our boss changed our flights and extended our stay for the rest of the week (everyone wanted to do this) and took us to many expensive tours, fancy dinners, etc. for the rest of the week. Easily thousands and thousands of dollars. It was still the coolest trip I’ve ever been on.

      1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        Team outing over a long weekend, whole company (20-odd people, tech start-up but owned by a larger group).
        To NYC (from Germany), all expenses paid.
        Only on the plane the CEO decided to rent a conference room at the hotel for a day, just for the optics – everybody had to give an elevator speech what they do. The whole affair lasted 30 minutes or so; then it was strictly no work.
        The following years we decided to do it in European cities (Barcelona, Lisbon, …) – less flying, more drinking.

      1. Zephy*

        From where, though? A two-hour train ride or twelve-hour trans-Atlantic flight are both kind of excessive for a one-hour meeting (what even is Skype, amirite??), but one of those is truly outrageous.

        1. Former Usher*

          From the midwest in the US. Best part was the meeting was held inside an industry conference that my emplyoyer would not pay for me to attend. I couldn’t get inside to attend my meeting until I was able to borrow another attendee’s conference badge.

          2. Liane*

            What a mix of Spendthrift and Cheap! Pay for roundtrip flights to France (a few thousand?) but not a conference (couple hundred?) once you get there, even though that’s where you are supposed to be.

        2. Flyleaf*

          I was flown to London, from the US, for a job interview. $10K for a business class seat, which was a nice surprise for me. I thought it would be a long day of interviews, but I ended up just meeting with the COO and the interview lasted a total of 20 minutes. They made me an offer, which I ultimately accepted, but to be honest the fact that they were willing to spend ten grand for a 20 minute interview did give me pause. It turned out to be a good job and my boss was great. He was big on first impressions and apparently I said enough in 20 minutes to convince him I was the right person for the job.

      2. (Former) HR Expat*

        I thought mine was bad. My old company sent 12 people from all over Europe to New Jersey for 2 days of software testing…..that we had already done virtually.

      3. SoThere*

        My husband flew from the midwest to Hawaii for a one hour meeting (they insisted he had to be in person) and by the time he arrived, the meeting had been cancelled!

        3. BeachMum*

          Years ago I flew from Los Angeles to Ft. Lauderdale, rented a car and got a hotel room in Boca Raton for one night. Met with my team and threatened them, in person, that they would all be fired unless they fixed their issues, and then drove back to Ft. Lauderdale and flew home that afternoon. The entire meeting lasted about two hours, but no amount of begging, threatening, etc. was working over the phone, so the big boss decided to send me to do it in person to prove we were serious.

          It was back when internet companies could pull that kind of thing…

      4. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Similarly, spouse was sent from the UK to the US to sign some paperwork that had to be done in person at a particular place by a particular date. Company simply couldn’t find him anything else to do while he was there so he had to take six flights and one brief hotel sleep for the sake of a bit of ink and a photo. Ridiculous.

    9. Overeducated*

      Oh man. My employer has very clear and reasonable policies and cost limits, but just going from the early career academic context (“I have a $500 reimbursement limit for this conference with a $300 registration fee, so my granola bars are packed, and who can I split a hotel room with?”) to pretty standard employer payment FEELS extravagant. Now when I travel for work, I get my own room, I can get a $15 cab to the airport before public transit opens instead of waking my spouse up at 4:30 AM for a ride, I get paid per diem for meals…even three years in, it feels luxurious.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        High five on all this! I’m working for local government, so our spending has pretty strict limitations. But I still really enjoy that the few times per year I travel, I can get a hotel room! A whole room, for myself! And per diem for meals! When I travel on my own time I camp at free campsites or couch surf and eat cold sandwiches, so it really feels luxurious.

        Plus we get an annual allowance for purchasing work clothes and boots that is quite generous. It’s not unreasonable – about enough to purchase one pair of high quality work boots and a new wardrobe of work clothes – and in our line of work clothes can’t be expected to last long. However I’m used to buying stuff from the discount pile at the thrift store, so being able to just walk into a regular store and pick any pants I want is thrilling.

      2. Sparkly Librarian*

        I hear that. The last conference I went to was $400 for registration and $325 for flights; I got $750 approved by my employer (reimbursement came months later, but that’s another issue). Because it was my dime, I stayed in an Air BnB for $35/night and bussed over to the downtown conference center. I have decided not to apply for any more conferences not on the same coast; I don’t want to pay my own money for a work expense.

    10. Fortitude Jones*

      Well, the week after I started with my current company, my team traveled for a conference, and my grandboss took us out to eat almost every night to restaurants that were no less than four stars. Then he proceeded to order damn near everything on the menu for the table to share. He kept the alcohol flowing – all top shelf liquor – and he even encouraged me to take a shot of Louis XIII since he knows I love cognacs. That was all well and good, but a shot of Louis was $225! He was like, “Don’t worry about it, I’ll pay for it.”

      I did not take the shot, lol. And later on in the week, I made some offhanded comment about not wanting to see what his expense report was going to look like. He laughed and clarified that he’d been paying for all the alcohol on his own personal card and wasn’t going to expense it. I almost had a heart attack because he had to have spent a couple grand on drinks alone that week.

    11. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      In another lifetime, as a graduate intern for a lobbying firm, one of the partners used to love to go out to eat at this one particular swanky restaurant, buy expensive bottles of wine, and lots of apps for the table. In his defense, though these dinners were often with some lawmakers, he didn’t do it necessarily to sway them to his clients, but just because he was an extrovert who loved to entertain and eat good food. I rarely got to attend these dinners because they were always mid-week and I often had class in the evening, though one time in particular I recall him trying to find out who from the office had been in attendance (and he was really hoping I was on the list) because they had spent *too much* and the lawmaker was over limit for ethics filing. I think they were able to resolve it, but I always felt bad about that as he was far from the typical political lobbyist and was definitely not doing anything to be underhanded!

      (He passed away a few years ago from cancer, which was incredibly sad. He was a good guy.)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Please tell me this is because they sprung for the best ice cream in town? I’m not even mad, I just want to make sure this wasn’t because they bought a company of 50,0000 Blue Bunny treats ;)

          1. SoThere*

            Oh, Hon, we had to use our own money to go to Wal Mart to buy ice cream for the staff since the employer won’t! So they got the Great Value brand, but they are probably lucky they got anything. LOL

      5. Yuan Zai*

        I also urge you to share the details of this. I JUST hosted an ice cream social in my office that was…uh, less than 1 percent of this cost and we have a LOT of employees. (As someone who has to plan a lot of events on a very low budget, I envy those planners and organizers who get to go big!)

      6. Just Elle*

        Gold leaf covered cherries??

        In college, I did a project for a luxury car brand. We happened to visit on the day of their ice cream social, and they drove us over to it in a white-leather-interior convertible. I was so stressed out about spilling ice cream on the leather that I didn’t enjoy it much lol (also, why couldn’t they just let us finish our ice cream before driving back??).
        But I think even with a new leather seat the whole social would have cost less than $100k?

      7. ZuZu*

        It definitely wasn’t 100k haha but Old Company used to regularly (2 -3 times a summer) host ice cream socials. A person from the ice cream shop would be dressed as a cow and serve our flavors. I found out after I left that job that it cost something like an extra $50 for the employee to be dressed up as a cow and I will never not find it funny that our CEO specifically paid extra for that.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Our CEO is notoriously all about being as cost effective as possible…however I know he’d totally spring for the cow costume as well. Honestly I’d use the setup as a reason to wear a cow costume myself, so I’d save the employee the suffering but then I’d have to source a cow costume…challenge accepted!

        2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

          If that was an option, I’d never NOT pay for the employee to be dressed up as a cow. That’s pure comedic gold.

      8. PR Girl*

        It was actually slightly more than that, but here’s the story.

        My nonprofit, mind you, employer in a small city was celebrating a major anniversary, and the VP of our department had the idea to host an ice cream social for the community. Not a bad idea, right?

        Well. She insisted on renting 10 ice cream trucks that had to be driven from three states away and covered in a commemorative vinyl wrap design that resulted in all kinds of rush charges from the designer. The ice cream – which was literally a selection of 5 bars – was probably the cheapest expense.

        Ultimately, the event wasn’t that overwhelmingly attended and we ended up with a ton of ice cream overage. And it didn’t move the needle for shit. But it was still hailed as some major success.

        It was a good time.

    13. DCGirl*

      At my last job, the CEO insisted on having this very architectural, highly designed, floating staircase between the two floors of our suite, because a regular staircase wouldn’t do. Among other things, she had visions of standing at the bottom and addressing all the employees who would be sitting on the stairs and thought this would make for great pictures. The facilities manager told me that it cost more than his house. This is in the DC suburbs — a house in his neighborhood is at least $500,000. Because the staircase was floating and in an open area, walking down it created a tremendous racket, particularly for women in spike heels (clack, clack, clack, clack, clack). She wouldn’t hear of putting any sound-deadening material on the treads because it would ruin the architectural integrity. As a result, most people exited the suite and took the elevator instead.

        1. DCGirl*

          Also so DC….

          She also insisted on having a building right off the Beltway and signage for the company on the building (which also costs $$$) so that the company name would be sign by thousands of commuters every day. My husband and I hiss in that general direction every time we drive by.

      3. Profligate Engineers*

        Oh man, I read this and had flashbacks of my old company. Old firm did a 3-story floating stair, in the most expensive per square foot commercial office space in Houston…Ugly as hell but “architectural”… and trapped them in a long-term lease… right before massive salary cuts and layoffs over the next three years due to the recession. Now they have given up most of the floor space in that building, and that ridiculous stair has been partially (totally?) removed. Excellent use of money, there. Same firm paid $75,000 dollars for a front desk for the LA office that looks like cheap Frank Gehry knockoff… that the receptionist can’t even sit behind because no one can see her over it. But no profit sharing, 401k match, or raises that year because the firm is in a bad “cash position” despite record revenue. Glad to have left them behind.

        1. Profligate Engineers, Round 2*

          Update: I googled the architect who designed that $75,000 desk, and he uses the following words in the description: “awkwardly-oriented”, “strangely”, “warped”, “involuted” (bonus: not even a real word!) and (my favorite) “inexhaustibility”. Even the guy who designed it thinks it’s terrible. And it is.

          1. Lindsay*

            I think you are being harsh to the desk designer. It sounds like you think the primary purpose of a desk should be it’s function and you are judging it from this lens. After reading the description and looking at the images, it seems pretty clear the main purpose of this desk was the visual impact it would have on visitors to the firm.

            Feel free to judge your old firm for choosing form over function though!

        2. Funbud*

          This staircase story is very “Mad Men”. Remember, they put one in so they could expand to the next floor. And then the company got bought out.

          1. DCGirl*

            In the case of that company, there have been two rounds of layoffs since that staircase was installed. One in February 2018, in which I lost my job, among many others; one this summer, in which many more were laid off. Not saying the staircase was the reason, but that kind of spending on decor sure didn’t help.

          1. Shibbolet*

            Wow. This is structurally amazing and not in a good way. Why would you want a reception desk to be like that? But I notice they did their due diligence and put female images. Because of course!

          2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

            Is that the reception desk on the Death Star?

            “I’m sorry Mr. Skywalker, Mr. Vader’s meeting ran over, if you take a seat he’ll be with you shortly!”

    15. philosophical_conversation*

      Not terribly extravagant compared to others, but my office hosted all of our sales reps for a conference/update meeting last year. We took them out to dinner. Because of the number of people, we were split between three very nice restaurants and was a competition to see which group could have the most expensive bill. The group I was with won, partially because the marketing manager hosting the event refused to buy anything but top-shelf alcohol and ended the night ordering a few bottles of Dom Perignon for the five or so of us left over at the end of the night. He ended up submitting the expense report in one of the bottles and his boss found it hysterical.

    16. Been There*

      At OldJob, they would spend absolutely RIDICULOUS amounts on alcohol. They would go to tradeshows and rent out venues for the night, throw ridiculous parties with an open bar (think almost-but-mot-quite black tie events), have open houses with lots of alcohol. At the same time they would book the cheapest flights, double up employees in hotel rooms, complain about any kind of food related expense (including per diem). Frankly, I’m amazed that their nickle-and-dimeing of the employees didn’t drive more people away.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      This is vague in some ways, sorry.
      Person had bars of silver under their desk. Several bars of silver. Feeling duty bound, Person reported the bars to the Boss. Boss said, “Put them back under your desk and never mention them again.” As far as I know the bars of silver were still under the desk a decade or so later when Person retired and left the company.
      Big company, well known name.

      When people at or near the bottom see this level of waste, they automatically assume it gets worse up the ladder.

      1. Anonomoose*

        I…… assume they had good security going in and out? Because an actual bar of silver lying under your desk is worth enough to make almost anyone think about having a try at their own heist

        *I’d never normally think about taking from an employer, but one wealthy enough to leave actual bullion lying around would make me consider, say, if I could swap the bars with some silver coated lead bricks, and retire extravagantly wealthy

        1. Anonomoose*

          Actually, hmm, maybe not…silver retails for about $600 a kilo. There’d have to be like, half a tonne under there for it to be tempting

          1. KoiFeeder*

            A bar of silver is like 3kg, so that’s $1800 right there. Selling it wouldn’t be that much, sure, but $1800 isn’t chump change.

            Also, even if it was more like $6 a kilo, I’d half want it just to sleep on it like a dragon.

            1. wittyrepartee*

              The poorest dragon. That’s what dragon babies sleep with instead of teddy bears.

            2. Anonomoose*

              Yeah, but I imagine it’s somewhat hard for average person to sell bullion bars, there’s like proof of ownership things, it’s pretty much what anti money laundering was invented for, etc.

              Gold, on the other hand, would be worth melting down and recasting into something less suspicious, like rings, and isn’t as tough to rework as silver.

              … I might be overthinking this

      2. C*

        So…why did they have bars of silver under their desk? Was it a “there’s money in the banana stand” sort of situation? So confused.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, that was the humorous part, why was it there to begin with. Apparently they wanted the Person to see the actual material that would be used in a design. Which still really does not make sense because the silver would not be used in bar form. When the project was over, Person tried returning it. It got forgotten. Years later Person tried again, and was told not to ask and just keep it under the desk. By the time the person left the company the bars had been there for a very long time.
          The story did not make sense from start to finish and the bars of silver were nothing but a waste of money from the get-go. Then the secrecy about this whole mistake was just laughable.

    18. Adlib*

      My previous job sent me to Australia for 2 weeks, put me up in an expensive new hotel because it was close to HQ, sent me via Premium Economy on Virgin, and…it was a complete waste of time for that particular project. (SUPER FUN trip though!!)

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I don’t think that sounds so unreasonable if it was once.
        I was once sent to Berlin for a trade show and then to our Paris office for a week so I could meet everyone. It was a nice hotel, but not 5 star or anything. Some of the staff did this every year.

    19. SophieChotek*

      Well my company is self-publishing a book about itself (the company) and I’ve heard the cost is close to $750,000.

      Then they are taking book and introducing it at prestigous international book fair (an entire continent away). I know booths at fairs can cost $100s per sqm, plus building materials/custom building the booth, bringing all the staff to staff the booth, etc.

      1. SophieChotek*

        This is the same company that won’t give me a marketing budget, refuse to pay for media placements (expect it always to to be free), wants employees to share hotel rooms, etc., etc.

        1. Djuna*

          Ah, hence the book? Someone had the bright idea that people should pay for the privilege of being advertised at?

      2. smoke tree*

        Is that book being printed on scratch-and-sniff gold leaf? How can the production costs possibly be that high?

        1. Shad*

          Run of 100k books? That’d amount to $7.50 a pop, which seems fairly in line with hardcovers, allowing room for profit margin on regular books.

    20. anonymoushiker*

      at old job (a start up), we had a holiday party in a wing of a large museum in our city. It felt astonishingly luxurious considering how much they paid staff (not enough) and that we were still a startup that hadn’t figured out how to run a business with a profit. (Eventually folded)

    21. Human Sloth*

      This happened at my company before my time here, but the president/CEO added his wife as an executive in the company hoping enhance the aesthetics of the building. She proceeded to hire a friend as a designer. Art work was thrown on every wall, but the wall colors were never updated nor in improvement made otherwise. There was something else about trashcans have to match everywhere, I believe, and she monitored what people displayed on desks and such. The rumor was the $$ was in the millions. Raises were frozen for a couple of years after that. That was the start of years of disgruntled employees.

    22. liquid gold shots, maybe*

      i used to work at a biglaw firm in nyc, we won a trial, and at the afterparty people were taking shots of liquor that was over $200 per shot… the lead partner paid for everything!

      1. Research for days*

        I’m in DC. No one spends money like big law and lobbying firms. It’s really impressive.

        1. Saraphina*

          I just moved to DC a few weeks ago. It’s a whole different world in this city…

          1. Research for days*

            Welcome! I’ve been here 12 years and will likely never leave at this point. Hope you love it as much as I do!!

    23. RandomU...*

      I think the dumbest thing I saw purchased, was a flashy red bubble light (imagine a police car or fire truck type flashy light).

      There was a running joke between 2 managers about how one was always on his phone or had someone in his office when the other one would come down to talk to him. Apparently the answer to this was to purchase a large red flashy light and have an electrician install it (complete with wall switch) above the other manager’s office door. I think I heard that the total was something in the $800-1000 range. Not the biggest waste of money, I’m sure. But falls under the most stupid.

      When I left that office I think it had been turned on a total of 10 times in 4 years, all on the first day of installation.

    24. Fortitude Jones*

      Oh, and two companies ago, I worked in a division where we had monthly events that were paid for by our president – we would do things like go on riverboat cruises, go to sporting events and sit in boxes/suites, go to game rooms like Dave & Busters, etc. They also gave us three gifts every year during our anniversary celebrations. This division would also do things like get customized team jerseys from our local football team with everyone’s last names on them. It’s a shame they didn’t feel the need to give out decent raises, though.

    25. Environmental Compliance*

      I have a coworker that will expense a hotel room for themselves when people from our parent company visit us. In the city, of which we work (and where they lives). They also have expensed dinners with said parent company visitors (who visit often, this isn’t a rare occurrence) that have easily totaled over $700 for three people.

      This is irritating mostly because this person seems to rarely show up (physically or mentally, depending on the day) to work, needs to be babysat to get anything done, and we’ve recently gotten pointed emails from Big Bosses to stop spending so much money….but this individual continues to have these type of expenses (whereas I just fought to get a meter required for compliance updated).

    26. sparty07*

      Someone I worked with took a job down in Brazil for the company and they flew their 2.5 year old triplets (with their wife) down to Brazil business class per company policy.

      Same company while I was down there flew my wife and I back to the states business class twice for funerals.

      Current company, our executive team visited NY fairly often and when they were booking their $400/night hotels shocked me a little the first time I saw it as I have never spent more than $150 in cash on a hotel in my personal travels.

    27. NGL*

      My bosses took the three of us from the office, plus three clients, out for a Christmas lunch at the 4 seasons and managed to spend $1,000 a person after all was said and done. The two bosses split it between their two expense accounts, and still corporate came back and said “…Don’t do that again.”

    28. WomanOfMystery*

      My boss laughingly and cheerfully strong-armed the head of investor relations to buy us appetizers one evening during a big company meeting. It was absolutely delicious and made me not afraid to use my expense account while traveling.

    29. used to be in tv*

      Like my name says, I used to work in television (as a PA while I was in college). Mostly I worked on one particular show produced by Huge Shipping Company that had an almost comical budget for a television show. It’s not as extreme as some of the other examples, but our caterers used only organic food and farm-fresh eggs (one of the drivers picked them up every morning before we started!) and had a massive array of dishes, we bought out locations for a month of prep work to shoot a single scene, we had probably twice the crew of any other production in town…

      And of course there was the annual overnight trip to Other City, which was ostensibly to shoot a few scenes but which inevitably devolved into partying and absurdity (we had to leave someone behind because they were too hungover to wake up to a zillion phone calls, and the year before I was there one of the ADs got sent home for being too drunk!)

      We never worried about the money, whereas for every other show it was always “cut this, don’t buy that” etc. People working on other shows used to be astonished when we described what we’d been up to. I’m glad I’m out of the business now (it was a VERY unhealthy lifestyle), but it was certainly fun while it lasted!

    30. Kathleen_A*

      The organization I work for once spent tens of thousands of dollars a speaker (a retired coach) who was of interest to maaaaaaybe 1/4-1/3 of the intended audience. Surely we could have done better for $20,000-$30,000?

      1. Rat Racer*

        My previous employer once hired an actor who was famous for being part of the Brat Pack in the 80’s to give they keynote to the national sales team. This was in 2016 and for a health insurance company. Um…why?

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Yes, *exactly*. (Not the Brat Pack part, but the utter futility and foolishness part.)

          In our case, the answer was that our top guy really, really, really admired this coach. Really, really, really. And so he convinced himself and a few fellow enthusiasts that this guy, who has zero involvement in our industry, could nonetheless provide valuable Life Lessons to our membership. I still don’t get why. And the guy wasn’t even a particularly good speaker either, BTW.

    31. No Thanks*

      It happened to my husband, not me, but I’m still stunned by this, years later. He worked at a biotech startup and one year they decided the “holiday party” was going to be a “surf and turf” dinner at a fancy restaurant on a Friday night. It was the kind of thing that normally is organized for executives. We’d never heard of regular employees being invited to these things.

      It gets better – employees and their spouses were invited and each (non-executive) person had to pay $150 per person to attend (drinks not included). The company of course was footing the bill for the executives. The regular employees were all trying to figure out how to afford the fee. My husband declined and suddenly found himself subjected to intense pressure to at least attend himself. I don’t know if they were short on funds or the employees were subsidizing the executives or what. Eventually he told them we’re Jewish and they finally backed off.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Merry Christmas! And BTW, in the spirit of the season, you owe us $150, or $300 if you want your spouse to joint in the festivities!

        Twits.

      2. BeachMum*

        My husband owns his company. Every year we invite all of the employees and their significant other to a dinner party, usually at The Palm. Surf and turf is always one of the dinner options. We also have an open bar. All in, the party costs about $15k for about 30 people, but I’m pretty sure most of the employees have fun and for some, the treat of lobster is really nice.

        There’s also no pressure to attend, so we’ve never had everyone at the party and that’s just fine. I plan the party and try to ensure that there’s enough for everyone to eat (special menus, etc.) and that the one alcoholic gets served watered-down drinks.

    32. Everdene*

      My FIL works in sales for the oil and gas industry. He regularly takes clients to massive, expessive gigs (ie Paul McCartney) sports games (national level) and fancy restaurants. To my third sector self my boss saying to fly into the nearest airport, not the cheapest, feels extravagant!

    33. Anonymous spending*

      My company has always been generous with travel expenses including food and alcohol (though we don’t go crazy). A former editor, with a taste for fine wine once ordered a $600 bottle of wine at dinner (I think they had clients with them??). We still call it getting “hislastnamed”. He’s been gone from here for several years.

      1. TPS Cover Sheet*

        In my misguided youth I used to work at a 5* hotel that had been bought and downgraded to 4* but still had all the old staff and works… the maitre’d was pissed off there was some $1000 bottle in his budget as it was the end of the recession and nobody was going to buy it and that and a couple more bottles were taking up space from the stuff that actually sold in the expensive-ish categories. So at one year-end inventory he went ”oops I dropped it” and went and opened it and poured everyone a dram… dunno was it corked but it wasn’t anything I’d paid a tenner for…

    34. Hels*

      I was based in one of the countries I was responsible for and worked remotely.
      My former manager loved fancy restaurants so every time he visited he insisted we go to a very good restaurant. He never caref about the price and used his company card.
      The last week I was working there quite a few colleagues came for business meetings or to be part of the handover process. For my goodbye dinner I could choose a restaurant. I chose of course a Michelin star restaurant that I really wanted to try. We were 7-8 people. He loved the idea.
      (In this region fancy restaurants are a lot cheaper than in, let’s say, France or the UK but this was still a crazy amount for a dinner.)
      (Then again, this company has paid for 4G internet on the company phone in a 3rd world country to watch porn so…)

    35. Briefly anonymous*

      Academia doesn’t really lend itself to extravagance – or at least, not where faculty and ordinary staff can see it, I suppose. Top administrators seem to have wider scope, but most of my university’s eye-roll-inducing spending falls into two categories: hiring expensive external consultants for everything (rather than, say, asking the wide range of experts you already employ as faculty…) and constantly improving the already luxurious athletic facilities. Faculty offices are drywall and cinderblock; assistant coaches get paneling and fancy tech. Same with salaries – the newest assistant sports ball coach makes over 50% more than I do, and I’m a tenured professor. This is always blamed on “what the donors want,” but it does make institutional priorities quite clear.

      1. cactus lady*

        Omg, once a department chair bought a $50k table for his office, but we weren’t allowed to order office supplies for our new hire because “there isn’t any money.”

      2. Research for days*

        I’m from the south and the money spent at SEC schools for their football programs is insane. Did you see a recent article on the new locker rooms for LSU football players? They’re insanely nice.

      3. JamesTiptree*

        I’m also in academia, and our old president had a mild scandal after spending $8,000 on chocolates for his office. Meanwhile, it took me about two months of arguing to be reimbursed $40 for taking a student club to an art museum on an approved trip….

    36. Contiguous US dweller*

      I went on a 4-day trip to Alaska for one meeting. Then the meeting got canceled and instead I did a ton of touristy things with my per diem.
      And rode a dogsled.

      And then I went back because the meeting got canceled. It took 30 minutes and then it was tourist time in Alaska for me again!

    37. SuperanonCA*

      No crazy stories as I don’t want to expose myself but I’ll just say my employer spends a lot on eating out. I love it because I love any employer that gives me free food and keeps me well fed but I’ve seen some crazy dinner bills doing expense reports.

    38. Bee's Knees*

      I’m going this afternoon to pick up the 40 packs of bacon I ordered to feed our people that have to work this weekend. I asked our controller if I could buy a fridge to put stuff like that in, and she said sure. Coming from the newspaper, where I had to justify printer ink, being given a credit card with a huge limit and told to take care of our people (within reason) still feels crazy.

      1. Adminx2*

        This is a strange story!! Why not just pay a breakfast caterer to bring whatever you need that morning?

        2. TechWorker*

          If we’re talking extravagance not that strange! In an office with a kitchen cooking for small numbers of people is going to be way cheaper than paying caterers…

    39. Hi, I'm Eric.*

      Dinner for 6 at a Manhattan restaurant came to a wee bit over $48,000. The majority was 7 bottles of wine at $5K per bottle. For the rest of the meal, it started with appetizers at $250 each. This was considered excessive. Terminations ensued.

      1. Robbenmel*

        I understand that wine can be pricey, but I really, really want to know what kind of an appetizer costs $250. Please?

        2. Research for days*

          The huge raw bar platters can easily cost that much (crab, lobster, caviar, etc.) We have a few places in DC where you could drop at least that much on raw bar items and still be really hungry.

    40. Liz*

      The higher ups in my company have no problem spending when it comes to their travel etc., as well as “sucking up” to our BOD. We are an odd entity, a not for profit, but a member service org. we have a BOD who we suck up to, who in turn, grant us some pretty significant perks. There are BOD meetings throughout the year, and esp during colder months, they’re held in warm places, 5 star resorts etc. And each year at Christmas the BOD gets a fancy, pricy gift. Employees get zippo. Not even a party anymore.

      I think the worst was when we had our 25th anniversary. Our president at the time was well, no well liked. He used to have these “town hall” meetings in our lobby, and as he was kind of short, would stand on a platform to address us “minions”

      So for the 25th they brought in to a fancy schmancy 5 start resort, ALL past BOD members, their SOs etc. and wined and dined and whatnot them for several days. The employees? We got our president, in the lobby, giving a pep talk, and the in our VERY small cafeteria, they had platters of cookies and brownies. They were too cheap to even spring for a couple of sheet cakes from Costco!!! The contrast between what the BOD who really does very little and the employees who do it all was huge!

    41. Rat Racer*

      Oh! I have a GREAT one from back in the 90s. Was working for a private healthcare research company. To celebrate their 25th anniversary, they threw a HUGE gala – like fancier than the fanciest wedding I’d ever been to, and for over 500 people. As you walked into the reception area they hired MODELS to escort you, as a string quartet played in the hallway. Since my +1 was my roommate, we were both escorted into the gala by very handsome men that we did not know. So weird…

    42. MountRushmore*

      I work in non-profits and the rule here (I don’t live in the US) is you spend your funding or it gets returned to the donor which looks bad because a) they think you can’t budget properly and b) they assume you can cut costs year on year and reduce your funding for the subsequent cycle. So come year end, depending on which non profit I’ve worked at, we’ve all gotten leather office chairs, MacBooks, new iPhone 8s etc. Because these get recorded as asset spend they’re never questioned by donors, but if one of us flew first class we’d be audited until the end of time. Crazy.

      1. TPS Cover Sheet*

        Oh, that happens in corporate world too. End-of-year is mad budget spend so you can get the same finding the next year. Otherwise the money goes back and you get that much less for your budget. So projects always get 2-3 months limbo if they actually can continue, and then its the first quarter and you get shit because you have no profit… because corporate is sitting on the budget monies. Which means as a contractor you get suddenly cheesesliced off a project and then when you’re cheesed off eating beans in candlelight they call you back as they now have the money.

    43. AdAgencyChick*

      I once had a client who claimed to have a fancy wine cellar at home, with lots of high three- and low four-figure bottles. He said that because if he were at home, he’d be drinking expensive wine, that he was entitled to order super-pricey bottles on work trips. He would do it and make the agency foot the bill for the dinner. The agency always bills the client’s employer back for the meals, but it’s really hard to justify a $1500 bottle of wine.

      I won’t say what type of advertising we do, but pretend he was employed by a nonprofit children’s charity. It’s really not a good look to do that.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Ten dollars says he had one $100 bottle of wine under the bed and that was it.

    44. Lumen*

      How about companies where the CEO makes 80 times what average employees make and over 125 times what lowest-paid employees make? I’m gonna go ahead and call that absurd extravagance.

      3. Ursula*

        The average in 2018 for CEOs of large companies is 287 times what their average employee made. The company with the highest ratio made 3,566 times what their average employee did.

        I only say this as our regular reminder of how messed up the US’s economy is.

    45. Autumnheart*

      The company has tightened the purse strings on stuff like this in the last several years, but when I was relatively new, there was an annual company party where they flew in the regional managers to corporate, and then had an all-day picnic in the parking lot. This would be topped off in the early evening by a concert. The act that year was Lenny Kravitz. In our parking lot. The prior year, it was Counting Crows. (I wasn’t as excited about that because I’ve reached my lifetime maximum for “Doooowwwnnn heeeeerre”.)

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Wow. How much do you think it costs to get Lenny Kravitz to play a private concert in a parking lot? (I’m picturing the lot of like, a Dunder Mifflin-esque bland office park, which makes it funnier in my mind).

        1. Autumnheart*

          I had to google “Dunder Mifflin exterior” to get the visual, and while our office complex is a little nicer than that, yes, that’s exactly the kind of parking lot it was. (I mean, they put up a real stage and all. They didn’t make Lenny play right on the asphalt.) Plus, there are about 4000 people working here, which makes it a little more “moderate sized venue” as opposed to “intimate club performance”.

    46. Birch*

      As a grad student, my department was starting up a collaboration with a uni in another country. I had my own collaboration project with them at the same time, so I got lumped in on a trip with some Important People and ended up at a party at the Embassy. The department put us up in a ritzy hotel in the business district. I had my OWN ROOM with a futuristic toilet that played music, had a bidet and blew warm air, a stone-effect tile bathroom with a huge tub, a gigantic memory foam bed, a CHAISE LOUNGE and a bowl of fresh fruit that got replenished daily, along with the obligatory slippers and super fluffy bath robe and view over the city. I felt like a queen!

      1. Manders*

        Hah, that’s amazing!

        When my husband was a grad student, he ended up on a research trip funded by the federal government that calculated its daily food budget based on how much it would take to wine and dine diplomats. He ate very, very well on that trip.

        1. Gumby*

          They certainly were not using the GSA per diem rates because the official rates for where I live don’t even cover a Denny’s breakfast + drink + tip. And by drink I mean soda. (I used to order off of the $4 / $6 / $8 menu but that was not in evidence on my last visit.)

          Clarification: the amount of the per diem meant to cover breakfast would not cover a breakfast meal at Denny’s. The full-day’s per diem would have.

    47. Nope, not today*

      I worked for a place that was maybe 80 employees, but we were merging with a small company with only two employees in the US. I took on most of their accounting and integrated them into our finances, so worked closely with them. First Christmas the merger wasn’t final, so they decided to host their own Christmas party, and invited me. So just the three of us plus our spouses. Fancy steakhouse, loads of alcohol – one dinner was nearly $3,000. I was so glad I was the one to process that expense report, I’d been super curious what it had cost in total lol

    48. Manders*

      I worked for a law firm that was pretty bad about nickle and diming employees, with a very low pay scale and a terrible performance review system, but they went all out on the company Christmas party. There was a white elephant gift exchange and some of the prizes the company contributed included wide-screen TVs, cruises, and other really big ticket items. I actually still have the TV I won from them, along with some other high end items like NFL swag I could never have afforded on my salary.

      I only worked there through two holiday seasons, but there definitely was an attitude that people were hanging on through the Christmas party and planning to aggressively job search in the new year.

    49. MissDisplaced*

      A very large meeting and retreat for sales and marketing at a posh hotel for a week.
      –This when share price was falling.

      At a startup:
      Almost immediately upon gaining some investor funding, the owner and his girlfriend (who also worked there) bought themselves brand new BMW’s.

      From other friends:
      The law firm that went under, but had 1M+ in beautiful paintings and sculptures because the owner was an art fanatic.

    50. Orion*

      No super extravagant, but I had a boss who was going through personal bankruptcy. I didn’t understand how until I started traveling with them and saw how absolutely awful they were with money. Screwing over client relations by blowing through their guidelines just wasn’t a concern — they’d go to the bar and try to charge a tab of 5 or 10 hard drinks (I’m pretty sure they were an alcoholic) to their per diem, or bill a luxury hotel room that they’d gotten (spouse would stay in it too, and they’d fly in the weekend before) instead of staying at the hotel where everyone else was staying. It wasn’t even subtle. On top of that they’d try to get everything charged to the corporate credit card so it’d be harder to get back the money from them when it inevitably wasn’t covered by the client’s budget. I felt bad, but since I was the one who had to help consolidate the project budgets, book the luxury hotel room, get dragged into the bar and pressured into drinking (though the nice thing about drunk people is that they have a harder time recognizing when you’re not drinking), and deal with the temper tantrums… also super pissed. Company never punished them, just tried to find more ways to hide the card. Never been more happy to leave a company.

    51. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I worked in a small academic library that had a copy machine used by faculty, staff and students. Every year the director would take the copy machine money and take the staff out to a swanky lunch. One year it was dinner, complete with significant others, at a very highly regarded restaurant. It was a small staff so not that extravagant, but since we otherwise were very much a shoestring operation, it was a really nice treat.

    52. PNWRN*

      Not that crazy in comparison to others but my old job was a medical non-profit; as employees we consistently heard how we needed to tighten the belt, raised were ~1%, etc. Pretty normal, but they rented out a huge (expensive) event center to roll out new budget changes to middle managers & above- to keep costs down they only serves peanuts & water, but hired someone to come in and in real time “illustrate the companies values” which were then promptly printed into posters that hung EVERYWHERE. It was so tone deaf. And meanwhile the CEO was still receiving multimillion dollar bonuses and a sports park was purchased. People started to realize there was money, just not for us plebs

    53. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Um, I got a new trowel once. Definitely unusual in this line of work.

      1. Briefly anonymous*

        Ooh, look at you and your fancy trowel! :-) My college decided to save money by making faculty purchase our own toner cartridges for our (university-supplied) office printers. If we were issued trowels, they’d probably expect us to repoint the brickwork.

    54. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I worked at a nonprofit that had a very tight budget, and my boss kept using that as an excuse to veto basic operating expense requests. They were basic things we were legally required to have to keep our facility open and compliant with local laws: she didn’t approve the request, we were in violation. So it was a big deal that she was saying no.

      Anyway, we had two staff offices that had floor to ceiling windows looking out over a sunny atrium, and she had one of them. She developed this bizarre fixation on people “looking into her office”, and hired a glass company to come frost the lower windows in both offices. Then, it wasn’t frosted dark enough to suit her, so she had them come back and apply a second layer of frost film.

      In order to put apply the frost film, they had to move all the furniture. You couldn’t actually see in the bottom windows, because *there was furniture up against it.* And on top of that, you can buy frosty Contact paper in a home supply store for maybe $20? But no, she had to pay the glass company. Twice.

    55. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      During OldCompany’s Halcyon Days, our supervisor would look for any excuse to take us out to lunch. A birthday, a work anniversary, a person came to work on time the whole week (this one is an exaggeration, but not by much). And he would take us to world class restaurants. Ahhh, those were the days. LOL

    56. Decima Dewey*

      A museum my mother worked at had custom typewriter ribbons made in brown. The stationery they used had no letterhead, but was supposed to have the museum’s logo as the watermark on the paper. Someone held a sheet up to the light. Three guesses what wasn’t on the sheet of paper.

      Eventually someone sane took over purchasing and the brown typewriter ribbons were replaced by standard black ones, and an actual letterhead was designed. A visible one, that is.

    58. irene adler*

      This was years ago:
      The company my Dad worked for rented Disneyland for an evening for all the employees to attend.

      All of Disneyland.

      There were little to no lines to wait in.

      We ran from ride to ride all evening. In fact, we did the Pirates of the Caribbean four or five times, just exiting and going right back on. No wait whatsoever.

      Never experienced anything else as fun as that evening.

    59. SighWeSpendSoMuchMoney*

      Customer event held on an aircraft carrier in a very expensive city with a very famous band (think Rotating Rocks). Was kind of a big deal.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I was going to comment that Rotating Rocks couldn’t be that famous because I’ve never heard of them, but then I realized what you meant, and wow!

    60. Antilles*

      My last company would have company-wide conferences for everybody in the same division – the Chocolate Teapot Designers had one, the Teapot Repair Division another, etc. Every one of the 30-ish branches flew out half the staff, which included not just execs but plenty of junior staff. So when I went as a ten-month employee, I was surprised when I went out to seafood dinner the first night with a couple senior people and a few others and I glimpsed the bill into the four digits for our 6-person group. I later asked my boss about it and he said the budget was about $250,000. For an internal conference. For *each* of the divisions. Annually.
      Mind you, this was in 2010 in the heart of the Great Recession. I still haven’t decided about whether this was mere “extravagance” or straight up “dumb use of company funds”, but the company still exists so I guess they’re doing something right.

    61. emmelemm*

      Late to the party, but this is a doozy – FROM THE 90s!

      Way back in the day, I was an administrative assistant at Lehman Brothers in NYC – you know, company that imploded in on itself eventually? My boss, who was a decent big-wig but not the biggest wig, and another mid-wig dude he was buddies with, would do this thing where they’d schedule a meeting in London and then a meeting in NYC with a timeframe such that the only *possible* way that they could make both meetings was to take the Concorde. Because they liked taking the Concorde! It was fun! And fast! And really, REALLY expensive.

      (This was before video conferencing and all that, so people actually flew to meetings like, weekly.)

      Eventually, before I left, word from on high told them to cut it out, because it was way too expensive even for Lehman Brothers!

      2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        My favourite story about Concorde (as told to me by someone in the industry) is that after a year or two BA were reviewing their pricing, and asked those people flying Concorde what they’d paid for their flights and what they would consider paying. Turns out they were all so senior they didn’t have anything to do with travel bookings, didn’t have the first clue what it cost, and guessed vastly higher than the real prices.

        So BA changed their pricing to meet customer expectations …

    62. Anecdata*

      I worked in international development, and we would take taxis to remote project sites, rather than have company cars available. This was both cheaper overall, and in NGO-world particularly it can be /really hard/ to get funding you’re allowed to spend on vehicles, but taxis were often very old, ill-maintained, 2-wheel drive – and we often broke down, got stuck in mud, etc.

      One day, the axle on the taxi I was in cracked. We skidded to a halt in the middle of the road, blocked off the road as much as possible (unfortunately we were in a pretty dangerously fast section of road), called for help, and waited in 100deg+ heat for a couple hours for help dragging the car off to the side of the road to come.

      I took some pictures – of our makeshift flares, of the back of the car sitting on the asphalt still smoking, of our attempts to lever up the back of the car to get it into the ditch…and sent them to the team chat looking just for commiseration. Our fundraising director was totally horrified, and quickly asked everyone for their best stuck-because-of-bad-transit photos, pulled them out when funding organizations started fussing about overhead, and within a few months we had funding for a new, mechanically sound, 4WD (miracle of miracles!)

      #spendingVictory!

    63. noahwynn*

      A former company rented out Six Flags for 8 hours in the afternoon/evening for 80 employees. It was a blast to be able to go on every ride with zero waiting, but I cannot imagine how much money they spent on that event.

    64. Inefficient Cat Herder*

      Sigh.

      Fed here.

      They think they are being generous supplying toilet paper (the lowest-grade, sandpaper like stuff) in the bathrooms.

      Pens with ink are apparently too extravagant, so we all just buy our own.

    65. Not Me*

      I dated a man who was the head of capital markets at a boutique firm. I would routinely join him on client dinners. One dinner I got a look at the check, it was $1600 for 4 of us. These were weekly events. I can’t imagine how much the firm would spend in a year simply on food and drinks for clients (and me).

    66. Alas alack*

      A Seattle tech startup I worked for, flew the entire Sales department to Hawaii for a week, as a “team reward”.

      Except they hadn’t sold a damn thing since the company started! And I had even sent Sales two SOLID leads who were eager to buy our tech!

      Guess how many months later the layoffs happened? Yeah. 1. (Three months later, the company folded) I still hate them all for that. And the management that ok’d the trip.

      1. emmelemm*

        I hope this was during the first dot-com boom, and not recently. But lessons are never learned, are they?

        1. Alas alack*

          Oh yes, back in the heady still-shiny-new dot com era. I still see coworkers from there, and it takes very little to get us going about that place! LOL

    67. Urdnot Bakara*

      My boss used to have a massage chair in her office. Like, one of those really fancy ones that I happen to know cost at least $7K because they sometimes exhibit at our events. She let everyone use it. To be fair, I have no idea if the company paid for it or if she personally bought it, but still. Imagine dropping that much money on a chair.

      1. Exhausted Trope*

        Uh huh. My oldboss had two of them in the dining room adjacent to his office. Yes, TWO. And didn’t allow anyone to use them besides him and his wife. I only found out about them when we had a team breakfast and got to use the kitchen attached to the dining room because our break room had only microwaves.

    68. Not In NYC Any More*

      Back in the early 90s, my husband was head of the Americas for a telecommunications company trying to break into the US market. He was spending millions of dollars on TV advertising and product placement in movies. Around the holidays, we were inundated with all kinds of swag from TV networks, ad agencies and Hollywood studios that wanted his business. Most of it was in the realm of tickets and lodging at major sporting events or foodstuffs, but one year, a trailer truck pulled up to the house and delivered a high-end, very expensive speed boat. My husband had been talking to the the sales rep from the studio about wanting to buy a boat before summer, and the sales rep decided to send him one. He, of course, had to refuse it, but I always wondered what this sales rep’s gift budget was.

    69. PretzelGirl*

      I worked at a place that was notorious for under paying its employees. I was hired at the tail end of the recession and was coming off a lay off. So I was happy to have a job.

      They developed an “advisory council” where basically people would give their grievances to one person in the their dept and the company would “pretend” to listen to the idea. The only thing that came of this was that the CEO thought it would be fun if each department took a month and developed into a “theme”. The entire dept was to plan and host events once a week for employees (for a month and then move on to the next). He then got the bright idea to decorate the front door, with a custom cling each month featuring that departments employees (pictures that everyone else saw on their way in) and their theme. This cost $1000 each month. Someone brought up that he could save the $1000 and give everyone a raise instead, but he refused.

      To be fair most of the events involved some sort of food. I am always down for free food. But it got to be a little much after a while. People starting running out of ideas, really fast. Especially when everyone didn’t want to decorate their cubs for 10th time that year.

    70. woahnelly*

      Not exactly “extravagant” per se. But at annual sales conference (where spouses were invited), my Dad got in a bad accident. My worked for the company and my Dad was there as a guest. My Dad was riding his bike, didn’t see train tracks, and flew off his bike. He fractured his pelvis and collar bone. He was very lucky (wear your helmets friends!!). He had to have several surgeries and couldn’t fly home for about 10 days. My mom’s company ended up footing the bill for them to stay in the hotel, while my Dad recovered. They even reimbursed meals. Pretty cool of them!!

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        That is really nice of them!

        My MIL’s company was really helpful when their house flooded (in a major storm that got national attention). They found a local charity and gave money to them designated to help with their repairs and completely paid for new landscaping for their yard… re-sodding, new bushes/plants, fencing for the yard, the works.

        It was probably expensive, but it shows how they really try to take care of their employees.

    71. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      This wasn’t super expensive, but it was dumb.

      Our sales team had me order a customized football, with our logo, our broker’s logo and the potential client’s logo all printed on it, with the plan of “passing the ball around” during their meetings together.

      The client thought it was SUPER awkward, and we didn’t end up getting the business, so now there’s a $150 customized football floating around the office somewhere.

    72. Tenebrae*

      Worked at a dinosaur museum. My boss paid for everyone’s Jurassic Park tickets. :)

      1. JeanB in NC*

        And then you all got together after the movie to talk about how many mistakes were made, right? (Like a bunch of geology students did where I used to work with The Core.)

        1. Tenebrae*

          Honeslty, I mostly remember the person in charge of the collection complimenting the mosasaur’s teeth. By everyone, I mean *everyone,* including all the support staff who didn’t know much about dinosaurs (awesome boss. Learned a ton from him).

      1. KayEss*

        Ooh, ooh! I was hired at a higher ed institution that was in the midst of a logo redesign… don’t know what it cost, but it was with a very fancy agency and underwent massive revisions, so I feel safe in assuming it was beaucoup $$$. Meanwhile, my boss in the marketing department couldn’t authorize a $15 keyboard and mouse wrist rest to alleviate my carpal tunnel syndrome because the budget was so tight–I waited several weeks in increasing pain before it came out that we couldn’t order one and she was too embarrassed to admit it, and then I bought my own.

        Naturally, the university administration circled around on logo designs for so long they wound up all the way back at a logo almost identical to the original one. We apologized profusely and with great embarrassment to our contacts at the agency for the hassle of dealing with our leadership and the lukewarm result, but I assume they just laughed all the way to the bank… as well they should have, and I don’t begrudge them that. Six months later the entire marketing department was laid off.

        1. Anonomoose*

          This is why my response to university rebranding drives is to always try to be the last department to apply the style guide to our sites. It’s amazing how long you can put something off with person specific out of office replies, requests for assistance, clarification, crucial feature redevelopment to support things (read, fixing the bug I’ve always hated), and, as a last resort, requests for site performance testing metrics.

          By the time you’re doing it, a new design team has been brought in, declared the previous team to be idiots, and you don’t have to fix it until they’ve finished. (This is why all our web tools, unlike other departments, a) look like they were designed five years ago, and b) work

    74. Donkey Hotey*

      It’s nowhere near the most extravagant, but I will always remember traveling to NYC with Boss dude.
      We both flew from (West Coast City) to JFK (different flights, which arrived approximately an hour from each other.)
      Boss dude took a towncar to Manhattan ($70). I channeled Duke Ellington and took the A train ($7).
      We both arrived at the hotel at the same time.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Your boss probably didn’t know the public transit system in the city well enough to feel comfortable going by train.

    75. Bea W.*

      Former employer put live orchids in the bathrooms where there were no windows or natural light. The orchids would die and get replaced. There were at least 58 bathrooms in my building alone. Yet management took away all the plates, utensils, and napkins from the 12 kitchens cuz too much money.

      1. TPS Cover Sheet*

        Different accounting ledger. Besides, a client (in a secure building with no access) just might go to visit a bathroom. Only the expense units abuse the kitchens.

    76. restingbutchface*

      Private dancers from strippers get really expensive. Although I did get an AMAZING lasagna recipe from a very sweet woman called Diamond.

      1. restingbutchface*

        … and I should probably explain this was some years ago and my boss tried to exclude me from the “boys outing” with the client. Nope, I’m coming, I’m tipping heavily and yes, you will be buying private dances for me so the women can take a break, sit down and talk to someone who isn’t going to paw at them.

        Funnily enough, those boys trips stopped fairly quickly.

          1. restingbutchface*

            Ha, thank you, I certainly wasn’t “the boys” favourite person for a while but they were just jealous because Diamond liked me best :)

    78. NYCBanker*

      My company has an expense policy around private jets which I think is cool. Really hoping to do that one time.

    79. M*

      Worked for a seriously-cash-strapped small charity. They were rolling grant funds from the next year forward to pay for the last year’s expenses, holding up invoices until grants came due, and generally barely making ends meet. Despite that, each and every single year, they paid for all ~dozen office staff to fly to a peak-season holiday destination of the founder’s choice for a week-long company retreat, at which little to nothing of any consequence was done – but a *lot* of money was spent on fancy team dinners and booze.

      Sadly, the founder was a nightmare, so while it was an insane extravagance, it was also wildly unenjoyable.

    80. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      I worked as an Admin for a prestigious construction company (general contracting, heavy construction) here in the NYC metro area. The home office was further upstate. Whenever the CEO visited our numerous construction sites, he traveled in the company-owned helicopter! Emblazoned with company logo and everything. Pretty cool! It was actually a reasonable expense considering he could check up on multiple project sites in a day.
      Every summer, he hosted a huge party for employees at his home ‘upstate’, where he also had a ranch on his property- and he raised *miniature horses*. (His own money though) These beautiful, happy mini horses were lovingly cared for by the CEO himself (and staff while he worked). Talk about a hobby!

    81. KayEss*

      I worked at a small company where the owner was an insecure, desperate narcissist who threw weird, self-serving gifts at all the employees in attempts to make us BFFs. Example: she thought it would be good team-building(???) to buy all of us high-quality (i.e. expensive) bright red rubber rain boots. YEAH, I don’t know. When it turned out the boots were literally not made in a size that fit my freakish feet, she instead gave me a gift certificate to an extended-sizes shoe retailer for the equivalent. Each of those pairs of boots cost around $100, as I recall. Literally no one wore them a single time after the group photo on the day they arrived. (I, however, used my gift certificate to purchase a pair of practical black ankle boots that fit great and I wore for years after. So I definitely came out ahead in that scenario.)

      She was also a total disaster around actual business expenses. While I was there, the company logo got redone and she got it into her head that it would be TOTALLY AWESOME to have a wood-burning stamp in the shape of the new logo. Why? I have no idea. But I spent a bunch of time researching and pricing out options for this incredibly stupid piece of equipment, and actually managed to find a way to get one for a reasonable price from overseas, which she proceeded to buy. Meanwhile, we also bought a bunch of other stuff with the new company logo on it while preparing to launch the rebranding. Naturally, once all of this stuff had been received and we were ready to release it out into the world, it abruptly came out that she had not gotten around to actually registering the logo’s trademark… so all the stuff with the new logo, which included a ®, could not yet be used. SO YEAH.

      Rumor had it she also once bought a grand piano for her house with business funds. I’m willing to believe it–she was definitely that much of a hot mess. Anyway, I eventually got laid off because finances were tight and there weren’t enough billable hours to go around, which was not a surprise as I had been filling my time doing things like researching custom wood-burning stamps.

        1. KayEss*

          There were definitely jokes to that effect, at the time. The place was a stew of toxic gallows humor and backstabbing.

          I didn’t mention in the initial reply because it wasn’t really an egregious expense, but another thing this woman did at one point was order us all custom faux sports jerseys with the company logo and our names on them. She later got actually angry that some of us kept them in our desks to pull on as necessary, rather than wearing them “around town” in our private lives. Because we should love her and her company that much, that wearing the logo was like a bonus. (And free advertising for her.)

    82. it's all good*

      I once worked for a large company where the President had to sign off on EVERY PO, even if it was for $10. Because of this, something was not fixed (maybe $500) and an employee was injured. She went out on Worker’s Comp and before she left she said she was going to sue the company. YET because Halloween was his favorite holiday he catered a fancy lunch for 250 employees. No expense spared. And went out for other holidays too, like Easter Baskets with Beanie Bears for all. Priorities were messed up.

    84. Goldendoodle*

      My husband’s Very Large Company flew everyone in his practice group (about 35 people) to Miami for a “team building” seminar. Not local for anyone, they’re all spread out throughout the US. The conference room the company booked for this event was too small, so many people, including my husband, had to skype in from an overflow room.

    85. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Theres a good documentary called ”Riot On” you can find on youtube of a company in the 2000’s ”IT Bubble” in Finland about Riot-E Ltd. Nice job perks, while it lasted.

    86. Lexi Kate*

      At my husbands last company they were very generous to spouses. Any company trip as a spouse I was allowed air fare and a trip stipend in cash to spend. They also paid for 2 company cars for employees with legal spouses, with the caveat that we were getting one Sporty car and one SUV and when the situation called for it my husband(the employee) would get to drive in the one needed. The thing was my husband worked from home 600 miles from the closest office. As well as company policy was that travel over 100 miles or 2 hours needed to be by air, so there was no way we were ever going to use the car(s) for company use.

    87. Construction Safety*

      Ha, remembered this over the weekend.

      Circa 2014, CEO of a major Germany-based conglomerate was retiring. As a part of the hand over, old CEO & new CEO took a worldwide junket to all their facilities. We were building a new plant next to an older plant in Texas. There was about 6 months notice of the impending visit so that all the facilities could spruce everything up. The plant next to us spent a rumored $750,000 on tune up & much needed clean up. As an active construction site, we put fresh gravel down on the ring road (a little bigger than a football field).

      Big day arrives, two helos descend & land on the field next to the parking lot. VIP’s climb onto 2 waiting mini buses, make one lap around our ring road and one lap through the existing, gussied up plant, back to the helos & are gone.

      Total elapsed time: ~45 minutes.

  2. ThatGirl*

    Any other creative copywriters out there? What do you use for inspiration? any recommended blogs, for instance?

    1. Rachel*

      Do you get Ann Handley’s blog? She’s really great! I also go to the library and get one book from every genre and read as much as I can about once a month; inspiration comes from surprising places!

      Good luck and have a great weekend!

      2. ThatGirl*

        I hadn’t heard of her, thanks!

        I read a lot in general but I want to find a few new sources of marketing inspiration, basically.

    3. Youth*

      I read articles by Joel Golby and Oobah Butler on VICE UK to remind myself that I can write interestingly about mundane things.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      Sorry, no links to provide. My main form of inspiration is the crappy stuff I encounter IRL. I have friends who send me terrible copy-writing, knowing that I will rage-edit (and if it’s particularly bad, send editor’s notes to the businesses’ marketing departments.)

  3. Bee's Knees*

    Whew. Two doozies for you today. The Hellmouth has moved, I think.

    Our QA Manager, Speedy, is a hurricane. If I thought switching him to decaf would help, I would. He’s been having some health issues, and is a chronic oversharer. They don’t know exactly what’s wrong with him, and they’re running all sorts of tests. His office is right across from mine, and he often comes in to “check in” and tell me all about what’s going on. I don’t mind because frankly, I often don’t listen, and am responding to emails while repeating “hmm” and “wow” at regular intervals. So he tells me they know it isn’t TB, because they had him and his wife tested. (!) Then I zoned out, answered some emails, etc.

    Well. Friends, if you’re ever in need of a couple of words that will make someone pay attention REAL FAST, I’ve got the combo for you. CDC watchlist. Doesn’t matter what you’re doing, you hear someone start talking about a CDC watchlist, and how they might be put on it,(!!!) you are focused. He is not, apparently, currently on the CDC’s most wanted, but I’m still planning on putting him in a bubble. And is it rude to just go ahead and spray lysol directly into someone’s mouth?

    We had a cookout this week, and to do that, we fed all three shifts. One at 3 a.m., one at noon, and the last at 7 p.m. I came in to work at 2 a.m., after working a full day on Tuesday, and stayed straight through. So I was pretty tired by the time the afternoon rolled around. We’re having trouble with one of our departments, and the new spout maker they’re installing, so one of the VPs is freaking out and suggesting things that on the surface seem helpful, but are actually very impractical and unusable for various safety reasons. Anyway, he emails in a panic, and despite the fact that he name checked me twice in the email, he did not include me on it. I’m in charge of snacks. I was also, in the email, offered an intern to help with snack runs. I talked some big talk about how I could go to the store by myself, and if I couldn’t, what was I doing with this job. I mentioned it to the intern’s manager, and he said I couldn’t have one of his interns. I repeated, several times, that I didn’t need an intern.Well. I had to go to Food City anyway, because of the cookout, so I decided to go ahead and get snacks. I asked the managers that have to work over the weekend if there was anything specific they wanted, and two of them gave me the names of energy drinks. By this time, I had been awake for 16 hours, and working on 4 hours of sleep, so I was getting a little fuzzy around the edges. That’s how I found myself in the energy drink isle of Food City, talking to myself. Out loud. Trying to figure out which drink was which flavor. It was not my finest moment. Shortly after that, I conscripted the manager, because my buggy was full, and made him help me. But yes. Talking to myself in the Food City. Not my finest moment.

      1. Michelle*

        I agree. I keep a can of Lysol and Clorox wipes on my desk because I don’t want to be getting something that, apparently, no one knows what it is or how to fix it.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Every time he leaves his office for more than a few minutes, I sneak in and spray down his surfaces.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I know, right? I went and looked — the CDC watch list has things from ebola and measles to salmonella being spread by recalled dog treats. He didn’t give any clue huh?

    3. Cog in the Machine*

      I once had a coworker (also an over-sharer) come back from a doctor’s appointment and complain about the rash the doctor told him to just taky benadryl for. Then he showed us the rash! The two of us in the office looked at him and almost simultaneously said that it looked like chicken pox. He was all, “no, that’s impossible,” and I said it was chicken pox, shingles, or measles, and that he should probably go get a second opinion. He did, and it was totally chicken pox.
      I think the entire office was sprayed down for a week straight, with my boss doing as much WFH as he could manage so that he didn’t inadvertently infect his kids.

      1. OtterB*

        Argh. Some years ago my husband was on an extended overseas trip in a somewhat remote location with a few technicians reporting to him. One of them got sick – high fever, felt awful, no obvious cause – and my husband made the decision to send him home. He was home before he broke out into the chicken pox rash. He was sick enough from it that he missed several weeks of work, so it was good that he’d gone home, but on the other hand he inadvertently exposed two plane loads of international travelers. Oops.

    4. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      How were you still standing upright?! Why on earth would they have you drive at that point!?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Oh, I was at work for another… five hours after that? Other than my filter being broken, I was more or less ok. Just really really tired. It was worse the last time I did an overnight like that, because I had to go to the Dr. in the middle, and they gave me a strong steroid shot. So by the time I got home, I was exhausted, but had to wait a couple of extra hours for the shot to wear off before I could sleep.

    5. Ramanon*

      Measles, or E. coli? Those are the two most recent on the watchlist right now, right? Unless he’s gone international or is working with parrots.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        No clue. They’re running all sorts of tests, and they don’t know what it is.

        1. Ramanon*

          So, they don’t know what it is… Do they at least have any idea of transmission? Or whether or not it’s transmissible? Because if they don’t, I’m with you on the bubble-and-lysol method here.

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            Nope. Not bubble and lysol, full on quarantine. Send the guy home until he’s healthy and/or cleared.

        2. Jaydee*

          So…it’s something that involves lymph nodes, may have symptoms that overlap with TB (or TB may have been mentioned for other reasons), the phrase “CDC watchlist” was used, but dude is healthy enough to be at work?

    6. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      I just googled “CDC watchlist,” and the list at CDC.gov that it gave me includes measles and rubella (there’s a vaccine for those) as well as scary things like ebola and dengue fever. That’s a worldwide list, and not all of it applies where you are (no matter where you are– there’s a “hajj in Saudi Arabia” link, and the rubella one specifies Japan.

      On the other hand, if this guy had measles they’d probably have figured it out by now.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        They think it’s something with his lymph nodes? Again, wasn’t listening up till the CDC part. They’ve done all sorts of imaging tests though, so who knows? I don’t want to ask because I don’t want to hear about it for the next half hour.

    7. LKW*

      Talking to yourself is not a problem. Arguing with yourself is a bad sign. Losing the argument is a very bad sign. Giving yourself the silent treatment because you lost the fight… that’s when you’re in trouble.

    8. anonforthis*

      Uhhh I work at CDC and can guarantee for you that there is no “watchlist.” I don’t know if your colleague is incredibly misinformed by his healthcare providers or is making things up for a good story, but that isn’t a thing. He might be referring to National Notifiable Conditions, but that isn’t a “watchlist” and he would need to be diagnosed for his condition to be reported. It is reported primarily for surveillance reasons and there’s nothing inherently scary about it (for example, gonorrhea is on the list). He also might be referring to a local health department deciding to quarantine him, which is happening some places for measles, but again, they don’t do that without a diagnosis and he would also be quarantined right now lol. TB is both notifiable and people are often quarantined for it, so that’s where he might have gotten that idea if doctors discussed TB with him, but… again, no one would’ve reported his condition without a diagnosis and it sounds to me like he is being unnecessarily dramatic.

      A watch list might also refer to increased surveillance due to an event/outbreak or mass gathering (but it wouldn’t really be called a watch list) but no individuals are “put” on the list and they instead use syndromic surveillance from hospitals and it also 100% does not sound like this is what he is talking about.

      Writing this because I don’t want you to be that concerned about him and I’m pretty sure you don’t need to go overboard on the lysol lol.

      1. Needs More Cookies*

        Maybe it’s just that one of his possible diagnoses is something reportable to the CDC, like Lyme disease?

        1. anonforthis*

          I’m assuming that’s the case but it’s still weird to me because the physician wouldn’t really bring that up until the actual diagnosis because it’s usually a conversation about how they’re still following HIPAA, but they do have to report this to databases. When I worked in the clinic it usually only would come up prior for STI tests, but that’s just because of how we did the tests and the nature of that clinic. So like it could’ve come up during the TB test consent process (“if you have this, we will keep all your info private, but we do report the results to the state/national govt), but it’s just weird and either this guy is looking for some excitement in his life or his doctor phrased the consent very poorly lol

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          That was my guess a tick or mosquito borne illness that is not communicable from casual contact, like West Nile.

    10. hamburke*

      I’ve been on the CDC watchlist before – I contracted whooping cough in 2006 from one of my 4th grade students! Anyway, I wasn’t a big deal since they knew what I had so I just had to have a few phone calls with the health departments (I worked in one county and lived in another so 2 people) plus the but I couldn’t return to work and my kids couldn’t return to daycare for quite some time. My husband never showed signs of illness.

  4. Rosie The Rager*

    How should I interpret this interview?

    AAM Community, I am actively job searching and have been applying to positions in PR, marketing and communications. This Tuesday, I was fortunate enough to be invited to a phone interview with the second in command of a top- three PR firm in the metropolitan area where I live.

    I spent about two hours over three days preparing for the interview, which included reviewing the job description line by line, checking my interviewer’s LinkedIn profile, going over all pages of the website, reviewing the last six months of social media posts on all platforms and creating questions for the interviewer.

    The interview itself was 15 minutes from its late start to its awkward final syllable. What really concerned me is that the interviewer asked me a total of two questions. The first was about my current job for a super small single-owner firm and the second was a follow-up from an application questions.

    The latter question was about my experience with earned media. I wrote on the application that I had worked with a contact to receive a 500-word placement in a statewide publication. On the basis of this response, I received approval for a phone interview.

    However, when I reiterated the experience to the interviewer, she said “Well, that doesn’t count.”

    I must admit to being completely taken aback by her rude comment and wonder if I somehow misinterpreted something or caught her at a bad moment. Really, what was the point of interviewing me if my response was inadequate?

    Please share with me your perspectives and the most professional take away from this experience. I am at a bit of a loss.

    Thanks!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some people are awful at interviewing, which sounds like it may be the case here. It’s also most likely that in the end, even if you had been a good fit, she’s probably not easy to work with or in general just that all too familiar personality conflict. That’s not your fault, lots of people are like this and it’s them, not you, seriously.

    3. PR Girl*

      There are few things that can be at play here. The most likely explanation is the person screening and setting up interviews (probably a lower-ranking HR employee) doesn’t fully understand the nature of the job and what she saw as earned media experience may not have been as much earned media experience as necessary. It’s also possible the interviewer was doing screening themselves, which would be a waste of time, but possible.

      It’s also possible what you listed on your resume suggested you had more robust experience here. It’s also possible that the job you applied for is a little different than the one they’re trying to fill – which can change at agencies frequently because the accounts come and go and you need to augment teams with different strengths.

      As for her response to you, that was incredibly rude. Everyone starts somewhere and it absolutely counts. Leveraging relationships to get a placement – anywhere – counts.

      It’s hard to know what they were looking for specifically and what the issue was, but all you can do is keep trying and keep working to develop the skills that will be necessary for your next role. If that goal includes media relations, keep trying to find opportunities at your current company to get placements and develop pitches. You can also start building relationships with reporters in your market. It will all add up.

      Sorry this was so frustrating!

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        PR Girl, thank you for your kind and thorough response to my query.

        I really appreciate your insider’s perspective on this and fully intend to follow your advice to continue working on expanding my skill set and moving forward in PR.

        In particular, your comment on the job description not matching the need rings true. When I asked what success would look like in this role, the interviewer informed me that the team was reconsidering tasks and goals for the position.

        Thanks again, PR Girl!

        1. Aquawoman*

          They’re “reconsidering” the role AS they’re interviewing for it? Between that and the rude response, I think you may have dodged a bullet here.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup. I would not want to move forward with this company after something like this.

          2. RagingADHD*

            They could be reconsidering the role based on the applicant pool.

            If the person being replaced “grew into” a pretty complex role and is now moving up, they may have set hiring expectations based on that person’s current skills & responsibilities, rather than what’s reasonable to expect from a new applicant.

            It could involve redistributing some of the current responsibilities in order to cover the workload while a new person is trained up, or revamping the role entirely based on what skills the applicants are coming in with.

            It’s not necessarily a sign of massive dysfunction that the employer is having a hard time finding a good fit. Better to rethink their expectations and revamp the job description, than make a bad fit out of desperation and subject a new hire to unrealistic expectations.

      2. Circe*

        Seconding PR Girl’s thoughts.

        One media placement unfortunately doesn’t equal a plethora of earned media experience. The only reason I would think your story ‘doesn’t count’ is if it was some sort of pay-to-play opportunity and not really earned media. But still, that doesn’t give the interviewer leeway to be so rude.

        Good luck and keep trekking with the job search. Don’t let one rude lady stop you.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        So many things could be at play. But she was rude.
        I think all you can do is put this behind you and move forward. Some places are bad that way, and honestly, you probably don’t want to work there.

    4. Psyche*

      It sounds like whoever did the screening (most likely not the interviewer) did not understand either the job requirements or your experience. This job probably wasn’t actually a good fit for you. The interviewer was rude though.

      1. Mama Bear*

        This was my thought. At a previous company we had the need for some very specific skillsets and the recruiter/HR person kept sending unqualified resumes or setting up interviews where the person was just not going to be a good fit. Management did some tweaking of the job postings to try to get people to weed themselves out, but it was frustrating on both sides.

        That said, I do think the interviewer was a bit rude here. She must be “fun” to work with. Good luck with your search.

    5. Layoff Laments*

      In my opinion, one of the hardest things about interviewing is trying to gauge what the hiring manager’s or team’s preconceived thoughts are about the role, and your experience here is a perfect example of that. Seems like everyone had a different idea of what earned media would be acceptable for this role, and the interviewer’s rather rude response is a reflection of that. That’s not to say the recruiter, the interviewer, or your interpretations are wrong, just that they were different. The interviewer should have found a better way of responding. Job seekers shouldn’t be expected to know exactly what’s on a job description the same way the hiring team does.

      You seemed really prepared for the interview and the interviewer seemed like they were not. Of course, we don’t really know what was going on in their end, so if this were me, I’d chalk it up to someone who was not in the mindset for interviewing that day (being late, shortened interview time, rude remarks). It still stinks because the cost is of this is much greater to you, the job seeker.

    6. 867-5309*

      As a public relations professional with nearly 20 years experience, including time as an SVP at the largest global, independent firm, I would be looking for more than just an article placement in a statewide publication. It’s actually easier to place a contributor piece (especially in a smaller, regional publication) than earned media that is covered by a reporter. While the interviewer’s response was definitely rude, it’s fair that she would question if you had other earned media experience.

      Even 20 years ago, I had fairly decent earned media experience when graduating university due to four internships. I can see why they expected more, even if you’re a young professional.

      I’d be happy to take a look at your resume, if that would be helpful? And we can talk about different markets – I’ve worked in PR in small markets like Kansas City through New York, and currently live and work doing similar stuff in Norway. On LinkedIn I’m /jpbrown – just let me know who you are when sending the invite.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Do you mind sharing what part of the country you’re in? I’ve lived in different regions, and the standards of “rude” vary widely by industry and region. In New York, in my experiences of fast-moving industries, that comment would seem brusque but pretty well par for the course. It would only be really rude if she said it in an obviously mocking tone of voice, rather than a merely abrupt tone. So if you’re applying for jobs in a “thick skin” culture, it might be helpful to roleplay ways to respond constructively to a brusque remark.

      One useful way to respond might be, “Oh? What level of experience are you looking for?”

      In other areas that are more scrupulously polite and slow-paced, that remark would certainly come across as very rude. So it’s harder to interpret without that context.

      Overall, it certainly sounds like there was a significant mismatch between the interviewer’s expectations and your general level of experience, and she was frustrated/impatient about that. Where that mismatch came from is harder to tell.

      PR Girl’s ideas about possible reasons are very sound. Do you have any IRL connections in the industry (or a related industry) who could look over your resume and the job description, and see whether there are any industry-specific nuances you may be missing? Like, is there a generally-accepted distinction between “familiar with” vs “experience with”? Or if there is a general skill profile that would be useful in roles similar to the one you applied to, that could make you more competitive if roles are in flux?

      Perhaps you could broaden your skill set outside of your current job, with online training or doing a campaign for a nonprofit you love.

  5. Nebula*

    Is this a great opportunity or a sign to run?

    I’m a lawyer working for a medium-sized firm with offices in a number of states. I am in the teapot law department. For most states, including mine, there is only one teapot attorney. I have been in my current job for almost three years. Until February, I was the only person in the teapot department (attorney or otherwise) in the Wakanda office. Since that time, five staff members have started here. I didn’t really have much to do with them. Their manager, Natasha, is in the firm’s main office in Knowhere. Although there’s been some non-attorney staff turnover, I was under the impression things were fine (or at least okay).

    Earlier this year, Tony, the “chief strategy officer,” started in the Wakanda office. I had little interaction with him. About three weeks ago, he came to my office and shut the door. He told me that the teapot department was in bad shape, and the COO had made him responsible for coming up with a plan to turn it around. Apparently we have a huge backlog of work, clients are pissed, turnover is high, and staff morale is low. This all came as a big surprise to me. Tony asked for my help with the spout division of the teapot department. I was surprised and concerned, so I agreed and said I would help however I could.

    The following two weeks were a very stressful period for me. I had very little idea of how the non-attorney part of the teapot law business was done, and I was expected to get up to speed as quickly as possible. I have been struggling to learn the operations aspects of the job and assist and manage the spout staff while also doing my full-time job as the Wakanda teapot attorney. We’re so far behind, and our clients are so demanding, that I have been doing some of the spout staff’s work myself. I have been working a lot of extra hours, and my stress level is through the roof. I’ve been working with Tony as well as my boss, Steve (the managing teapot partner), and the teapot operations manager, Natasha, who are in in the Knowhere office. I’ve come up with and shared ideas for how to do things better, but right now we are just desperately trying to get the work done. I told both Tony and Steve that this was not sustainable, and that I was rapidly burning out.

    On Monday, Tony informed me that Steve was being let go. This came as a huge shock. Thor, a partner in another department, is now running the teapot department. Bucky, who is also a partner and teapot attorney and was Steve’s #2, is also managing the teapot attorneys.

    Since Steve was fired, I have been more stressed than ever. I’ve been busy with my own work and haven’t been able to give the spout staff as much of my time and attention as they need. I have repeatedly told Tony that this is not working, but somehow he has been able to talk me down. Tony is very friendly and really seems concerned with how I’m doing, but I don’t know him well enough to know what his end game is. He got one of the few experienced spout people to take on some of what I’ve been doing, but she already had a full load, and I’m still doing a lot. I’m worried about the department and my job (if the department can’t be turned around, or turned around fast enough, what then?), and my anxiety is telling me to bail.

    Both Tony and Bucky have told me that they have been bragging about me to the higher ups, that I’m being noticed, and that there is a great opportunity for me here if I just stick it out. However, no one has been able to tell me exactly what they see my role as, other than “person roped in to fix the giant mess” (which is how I see it). Talk is cheap, and I don’t want to continue in this nightmare for the same pay and title I’ve already had for doing just my old job. (Frankly, I’m not sure I want to continue in this nightmare no matter what title or money they’re willing to give me.) Everyone is saying that this is just temporary while we catch up, hire more people, and get the new people we have trained, but I don’t know how much more of this I can take. I’m looking for other jobs.

    What should I do? Should I try to stick it out? Or should I focus on getting the hell out?

    1. Mazzy*

      Well you’re in the role legal usually is. Fortunately, legal is usually seen as a (large) necessary expense, so if they’re going through their backlog of work, that should create stability for you. Since you didn’t know how bad things were, my guess is that the problems don’t have to do with your job. I’d be more concerned if I were in a customer facing or operations role and had been neglecting stuff or in charge of unhappy customers.

    2. Shuri*

      As someone who has been asked to interim lead things in a crisis, could you make a formal request for a salary bump during this time of increased responsibility? I was successful with that once. But if more money won’t help, you could also say you’d like a formal conversation about the trajectory and possibilities for you moving forward, then take notes, email them to Tony and ask if they reflect the conversation accurately as he remembers it. Then you’ve got something in writing.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Love the name – Shuri’s my favorite character in the MCU and fave Disney princess.

    3. Data Nerd*

      Can you go to either Tony or the COO of Stark Industries and get a timeline? My theory of life is that you can do just about anything as long as you know how long you’ll be doing it.

      1. Mama Bear*

        You need to get an end date. Not “this year” but “November”. Then you can also negotiate what you need to handle it until then – more money, flexible hours, more PTO, etc. If they can’t put it in writing, then IMO you have your answer about leaving. If Tony has talked you down repeatedly, he knows you are worried. Bragging doesn’t go far if you’re burned out.

        I would also be concerned about the overall health of the company. I once had to fill in for someone and still do my job. I turned down taking the other job permanently in part because I could see that the company was losing key contracts and I did not want to be the last rat on that ship. I stayed only as long as it took to find a new job.

    4. Reba*

      First observation, it sounds like you don’t have trust in your management to sort things out and end the chaos. Second observation, “he has been able to talk me down” (realizing this is an expression) gives a sense that your convos about this have an emotional tenor but not a practical one. Finally, I’m not so sure it’s “anxiety” making you want to run so much as good sense!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would tell them that you need some kind of action plan in place first, it can’t just be shooting from the hip and the “talk” about how it’s going to get you in good with the Higher Ups. It needs to be something that has a clear plan and a clear time line. Now sticking to it isn’t always something that you can do of course, since it’s a moving part of the business and dealing with variables but there needs to be constructive management of the massive overhaul.

      So I’d do this. And then make no promises to actually stay of course, just reel it in. So that it becomes more manageable and also that way you will always feel like you tried and didn’t just cut and run when things were funky.

    6. Been There*

      This was me at OldJob, and, as you stated, Talk is Cheap.
      You already know what you need to do. Get out. It’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better (IF it gets better).

    7. Auntie Social*

      Do you need a litigator, someone to go to court, or would a couple of paralegals help you get caught up faster? In other words, you wouldn’t do all the work, you’d direct them to do some of it. Good paralegals are worth their weight in gold.

    8. Coverage Associate*

      I gather I practice a very different type of law, but a couple of things stand out to me. First, your increased responsibilities don’t include more client contact and management. I am not sure they’re really helpful to your career. It’s like no one gets promoted for planning great office baby showers. Very few lawyers make partner by managing the typing pool.

      That said, though often poorly managed, I do feel that my firm is good at following through on the “you’re being noticed” in a good way talk, namely by smoothing the path to partnership. And I gather you’re managing people with like science training, not typical law firm support staff.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Do the best you can and work on getting yourself out of there.

      I will admit I am having a hard time following this because of the teapot analogy thing. So you are in a department but there is usually only enough work for one attorney, but you have a department of people. And the department of people cannot keep up?
      This sounds like either a work flow problem or a letting the clients walk all over the employees problem.
      I can’t tell which. Maybe both?

      Tony has told you to fix this, but you are not sure what you are fixing? And it sounds like you are doing the crews’ work instead of your own. So you are trying to fix this problem that you do not know what the problem actually is and you are fixing it with no additional resources brought in to assist? Your only apparent solution seems to be to do the work yourself. This is not a solution, of course, because it just gives you more of the same work to do.

      Then someone gets fired. It seems like you have no idea why this person was fired and the firing came from out of the blue. Ya know, I worked one place where I met one of my life time favorite bosses. They fired my favorite boss. Since I considered him to be a better employee than I was [for clear reasons], I realized that I had no chance in this place. So I left. What did you think of your boss who was fired? Don’t answer here, just use that information to help you along.

      You know your company. Sometimes companies hit bumps in the road. Does what you are going through now fit with everything else you have seen during your time at this place? Or is this a one-off, something so unusual that you never imagined such a mess could happen at your place?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This sounds like either a work flow problem or a letting the clients walk all over the employees problem.

        Both of these things were the issue at the law firm I worked at that had firm-wide, off-and-on (mostly on), mandatory OT for the entire 3 years I was there, and I suspect these issues are plaguing OP’s firm as well. Plus, you perfectly articulated my concerns about the question as well. How in the world is OP supposed to fix a problem she didn’t know existed and without resources?

        Yeah, it’s time to job search. This sounds a hot ass mess.

    10. Holly*

      Can you clarify – you’re the attorney in the department, but you’re being asked to do non-attorney work at a law firm to help out the client? I’m confused about how you could be asked to work in operations/product level by your firm unless you’re not at a law firm.

      1. Nebula*

        I’m an attorney in the teapot department at a law firm. I am being asked to do non-attorney work in the teapot department at the firm where I work to help the firm’s clients.

        1. Another JD*

          I’m more concerned that a department that 5 months ago had 1 employee and now has 6 went to crisis-level so quickly. It sounds like Steve really screwed something up. 3 weeks of high stress workload is unpleasant but not burnout level for most attorneys. Were there problems before this? Can they give you a relative end-date? A pass on your regular work while you put out the fires?

          I’m also really curious what area of law you’re in.

          1. Nebula*

            The teapot staff members in the Wakanda office don’t only do work for Wakanda. They do work for all the states we practice in. Also, they were brought on to replace staff in other states who left. The main office is in Knowhere and staff has previously been hired to work there, but management was having trouble finding people in the area with teapot experience. So it’s not as though the additional teapot staff in Wakanda has decreased my workload.

            You make a good point about the stress not being unusual for a lawyer. I’ve had similar stressful periods where I was deep in a case, and while those were very unpleasant, this is somehow different. When I’m dealing with a stressful part of practicing law, at least I generally know what I’m doing. I feel like I have very little idea of what I’m doing when it comes to the operations side. That lack of knowledge plus the feeling that I am responsible for getting the spout division on track makes for a whole new type of stress.

        2. Holly*

          That is *extremely* unusual unless you’re at a startup where it’s pretty open that everyone helps and its more loose. I can’t imagine another firm doing this where you’re not doing in house legal work for a client (it’s way more common say to work at a firm representing client A, and the client borrows you to do in house LEGAL work.)

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            It is unusual, but not unheard of to me. I used to work at a law firm that was on mandatory OT for most of my nearly three year tenure (and they were still on it long after I left and had been on it before I started), and some of our attorneys stepped in to assist our paralegals on things like title reviews, drafting affidavits, and sending out service documentation when those departments were majorly backlogged.

    11. it happens*

      What I see from your story is that your company is trusting you to be a utility player- not unusual for lawyers because most people think ‘lawyers are smart, they can do anything.’ And you are succeeding. These are both good. You should talk to chief strategy guy to better understand the game plan ands time line (advice given above is good.) Before that, you should think about what you want long-term (short-term you want clarity and less stress, obvs.) Do you want to be a teapot lawyer for your whole career? Do you want to be a lawyer your whole career with experience in multiple areas? Do you want to remain in-house (specialized or general) counsel? Do you like this company enough to relocate to other offices for them? Do you like the utility team management work you’ve been roped into enough to explore other management/operations jobs if offered?
      Consider this great and stressful experience that’s made you stretch yourself- stress aside, do you like this work and would you like the opportunity to do more of it- in this company or another now that you can put it on your resume, cuz you already have a couple awesome accomplishment bullet points if you want ‘em.

    13. Public Sector Manager*

      Nebula,

      This sounds a lot like the last firm I was in before I got out of private practice and went into the public sector. The issue with non-attorney labor could be poor management or could be a sign of bigger financial struggles. In the private firm I was at, we did a lot of administrative law. We had 4 paralegals who would help the partner process claims that all occurred before the administrative hearing. If they weren’t successful at the pre-hearing stage, then the other associate and I would take the case through the administrative hearing and potentially the trial court and appellate courts.

      At my level, everything always ran smooth. However, at the paralegal level, things were always a hot mess. The partner wasn’t a good manager, the partner didn’t pay the paralegals enough for the work they were doing, the partner was notorious for slacking off every Friday, including missing client meetings, and the clients were ready to revolt.

      For a while, the money was still coming in. My office was right next to the accountant’s office, so I had an idea of what the office receivables were. But when the accountant started showing up at odd times, when client checks in the mail would generate a lot of buzz, I figured something was up financially with the firm. So I started looking. Then we went from direct deposit to paper checks for payroll. If I remember, for direct deposit with the bank the firm had at the time, money needed to be in the bank about 2-3 business days before the direct deposit date. When that happened, I knew the firm was on thin ice financially. The firm imploded about two years after I left. And it was messy.

      First, I think you have to ask yourself whether you enjoy the teapot work, notwithstanding the chaos. If you don’t, and since you’ve been at it for 3 years, feel free to move on. Law is stressful enjoy even in an area of law you really enjoy!

      Second, if this office folded, are you willing to relocate to one of the other offices? If not, then I’d start looking. Because if the rest of the firm is doing well financially but only your office is losing money, they will eventually just shut it down.

      And if you are willing to relocate, and if you like the teapot work, I’d stay on for the short term. I agree with comments above that your firm needs to step up and give you a timeline. Even if you don’t get more pay right now, you’re earning a lot of good will that should, if you work for a relatively normal firm, generate a nice bonus or a promotion. But if those things don’t materialize, or more help isn’t on the way soon, you will have to reassess.

      Best of luck to you! I’ve been there, and it’s not fun.

  6. Booksalot*

    I’m looking for some insight from recruiters, or from people who work frequently with them. I’m a bit confused and annoyed by my interaction with a STEM recruiter this week.

    This guy messaged me on LinkedIn on Monday, asking me to apply for a tech job in NYC, which is about 3 hours’ drive for me. I thanked him, explained that I was not willing to make that commute, and asked him to keep me in mind for opportunities close to MyCity or fully remote. We chatted back and forth about my skill set, made a connection on LI, and finalized the conversation on Wednesday morning.

    On Thursday, I got a notification that he had started a new position as a recruiter for a company that specializes in luxury retailers.

    I highly doubt he quit one job and started another within the middle of the same week, so he must have already been gone from the first job when we spoke. Was he planning to hand me off to someone at his old job? Is this sort of thing common? I feel like he intentionally wasted my time.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Honestly in my experience I have found most interactions with recruiters on LinkedIn to be a waste of time. Though you actually interacted with him after the initial outreach which already is more than I’ve typically gotten.

      I’m betting that if things panned out he would definitely would have transitioned you to someone else. It does seem weird to try and start placing a new person when you’re three days away from leaving but maybe the company required it and it would be considered burning a bridge to not keep working full steam until you walk out. Or maybe he was about to put in his two weeks notice Wednesday but they told him to leave that day and he bumped up the new job to start immediately? Or it’s a new part-time gig? But yea it does feel weird from your side of things.

      1. Exhausted Trope*

        100% agree. No interaction I’ve ever had with recruiters on LinkedIn has ever amounted to anything.

    2. Samwise*

      I don’t know anything about recruiters, but more generally it sounds like: he was working at (recruiting) job A when he interacted with you and was doing his job = recruiting, developing contacts, etc. Like anyone ought to do — keep doing your job as long as they are paying you. I don’t see why it matters that he was leaving — he hadn’t *left* yet and he needed to do his job.
      Now he’s at job B. Presumably whoever takes over his role at job A will have access to his notes/files/contacts. I doubt work in progress just goes back to step one when someone leaves. So I don’t see how he wasted your time.

    3. Blossom*

      Is it possible that he might also be recruiting for tech roles at his new job? Luxury retail companies presumably have IT departments and so on.

  7. Bloated, Not Pregnant*

    I have been dealing with a currently undiagnosed condition (getting tested at the end of next month) but whatever it is has been causing extreme bloating. Like look like I am 6 months pregnant level bloating. I have been wearing leggings to work the last two weeks because I literally cannot fit into any of my clothes right now. Luckily we are a reasonably casual office, but I still feel a little uncomfortable (I wear long sweaters and “butt-covering” tops). No one has said anything to me, but should I mention to my boss why I am wearing comfier clothes than normal?

    1. Zip Silver*

      You can pick up some cheapo Goodwill office clothes to get you through while figuring this out. I did that when losing weight and saved a bundle, then spent money on quality new clothes when I hit where I wanted to be.

    2. Research for days*

      I don’t have advice on whether or not you should speak with your boss, but could you pick up a few inexpensive swing dresses from Old Navy? They’re super forgiving and a touch dressier than leggings.

      1. DAMitsDevon*

        I second the swing dresses. They were definitely my go after a medical emergency that required me to take a very high dose of steroids in the hospital caused me to gain about 20 pounds of water weight in less than a week . I didn’t start shedding the weight until I was able to start tapering off the steroids I was prescribed after I left the hospital, and of course, the weight loss was only a tad slower than the initial weight gain, so it was very helpful to have some dresses that fit me at both points.

    3. Celeste*

      I wouldn’t. I’d just go buy some larger clothes for work (just a week’s worth) and hope that it’s something that is easily fixable by your doctor. Wishing you all the luck!

    4. Mbarr*

      It might be worth bringing up with your manager, just in case someone else complains. Maybe something to the effect of, “I’m dealing with a medical issue that makes my normal business attire difficult to wear. I’m wearing X as a result. I wanted to let you know in case you have concerns about why I’m not in my usual attire.”

      It explains, but doesn’t ask for permission.

    5. A Person*

      I think it depends on your office – in mine, people dress more casually in the summer anyway, so it wouldn’t be a big deal. People probably wouldn’t even blink at the sweaters here due to the air conditioning being set on freezing.

    6. Samwise*

      No. If it’s a casual office and leggings + long tops/sweaters are acceptable, you don’t need to say a thing, unless you *want* to be discussing your medical condition now with your boss.

      I hope you are able to find out what is wrong, and that it all goes well! Please let us know!

    7. Dasein9*

      Ugh, even mild edema is hard; I can only imagine how bad you must be feeling and don’t blame you for wearing what’s comfortable.

      Is anyone likely to have noticed your wardrobe change? If not, I’d go with not saying anything. If so, maybe just a quick, not-very-detailed mention to the supervisor wouldn’t hurt. I would avoid mentioning pregnancy at all, since people will often focus on the p-word and forget that you also said “not.”

    8. A tester, not a developer*

      I have IBD, so my waist measurement can vary by 6-8″ through the day. Leggings and trapeze dresses are my go to outfit most of the time, and my office hasn’t batted an eye.

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      You may just give your boss a heads up. Something like, “I know my clothing has been extra casual right now. I’m dealing with a medical thing and one of the annoying side effects is it is causing this extreme weight fluctuation and bloating. I’m working on getting it sorted out, but I just wanted to give you a heads up that I haven’t converted into wearing nothing but leggings. That’s just all that seems to fit on any given day.”

      I would feel more comfortable saying this if my boss was a woman than if they were a man, but either was I think a generic- it’s medical and I am working on it- might help.

    10. Bloated, Not Pregnant*

      So I was tested for Celiac’s, IBS, viruses and I am going in next month to get tested for Crohn’s Disease and Ulcerative Colitis. I am hoping that will be the end of the tests honestly. No one in the office has said anything. There are only seven of us. The other women in the office know what is going on, but not the guys (which includes my boss). The only thing is one of my coworkers jokingly said “ah casual Wednesday?” and that was it. I have been wearing swing dresses too, but by and large I have just been wearing leggings. Just hoping this gets figured out and I don’t look like a whale.

      1. Bloated, Not Pregnant*

        And I am not a huge fan of swing dresses… Unfortunately I am quite “gifted” in the chest area so I look even bigger in swing dresses since they go straight down from my chest. I have a couple that I will wear, but they are not my favorite

      2. DataGirl*

        I have had varying gut issues over the years and it sucks. I hope you get answers. For me- my weight can vary about 10 lbs any given week depending on bloating and if my gut is letting me eat or not. I have pants in about 4 different sizes so I can try to fit correctly, although it’s not always possible. It took me a couple years to accumulate that though. I would go with what others have said, if it’s nbd in your office, keep wearing what you are wearing. Otherwise a Thrift store, Ebay, or one of those other online used clothing places like Poshmark or ThreadUp might be a good place to get some extras.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        I’d maybe buy a pair or two of inexpensive dress slacks until you find out. That is, if your office trends to more dressy and you feel you need to dress up. Or loose skirts. Thus, you could have 1-2 other pieces to rotate in with the leggings.

      4. Mama Bear*

        What about a wrap dress with a camisole? You an adjust it as your comfort changes over the day and they are often flattering on many body types. I have several from Old Navy. Depending on your diagnosis, they may also still fit when your size stabilizes.

    11. Schnoodle HR*

      I had this issue, it is related to my hormones. I already had a child and saved my maternity clothes, so on the days it was taht bad (I totally understand the 6 month pregnant look) I literally wore maternity clothes. But I didn’t care what others thought really. My family and friends know I have this bloat issue.

      A lot of maternity clothes are cute and can work with or without bloat. Just as an FYI :)

      But I wouldn’t mention it to anyone if you don’t feel comfortable. It’s none of their business…plus if you went from normal size to straight to 6 month pregnant look…doubt anyone actually thinks you’re pregnant, belly doesn’t grow that dramatically.

    12. Cats and dogs*

      You could get a cheap black blazer that’s a size bigger and wear it every day over the leggings with more casual shirts over. These can be in cheap stores and maternity stores (although the latter sometimes are more expensive)

  8. mixbag*

    It’s been a huge mixed bag this week, work wise… my partner got offered their dream job (I know that’s not real but colloquially it fits) which was basically a once every 5 years opportunity (it’s not coming again any time soon), it will allow them to actually advance in the field, learn new things, network, be promoted, and have rock solid job security, none of which they have right now. Their company is in shambles and probably be around at this time next year. The issue is that they had to take a $6k paycut to get the job – they pushed really really hard on salary (and please trust me when I say the new job is lowballing them, and is not in line with market averages) but the job just wouldn’t budge. But because of all the other amazing aspects, they took it, which I think was the right decision, but neither of us make very much to begin with, so it’s a bit of a blow. I’m trying to focus on the positive, and so is my partner, and we are both happy, but bleh – like I said, a mixed bag!

    2. CustServGirl*

      I guess as far as advice goes, I can just recommend what might already be obvious- sit down with your partner and rework your budget(s) to prepare for the pay cut/shift in income. Good luck!

      1. mixbag*

        Thank you!! We’re trying to move in together which would reduce both our rents by several hundred dollars, but we have conflicting lease situations.

        1. Mama Bear*

          I’d talk to the landlords and find out what circumstances would permit you to leave earlier. For example, what if one of you found replacement tenants? Can they just take over the end of the lease? While losing $6K is not ideal, neither is being in a bad situation where they could get laid off at any time. Other things to consider include shopping around all utilities and services (car insurance, phone plan…) and seeing if anyone will cut you a deal to swap or stay. When I got married, we challenged our car insurance companies to give us a quote for a combined house and chose the one that gave us the best offer.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I totally get the bummed-ness about the salary cut, but I’m sure working for a company that is in shambles and opportunity-less is super stressful, and I bet the happiness they (and you!) will get from not being at the old company is totally worth way more than $6k. And not that six grand is chump change, but it breaks down to only a couple hundred bucks a month difference after taxes, which isn’t tooooo horrible. (Though I don’t want to be dismissive of your circumstances, I recognize that a few hundred dollars a month could make or break it for some people – but hopefully it sounds like that’s not the case.)

      Plus, if they have a kickass year they can always ask for a raise more in line with market value in the future!

      Oh and congrats!

      1. mixbag*

        Thank you!! The job did promise a raise in January/February so hopefully that shakes out for the better.

    4. [A Cool Name Here]*

      I took a $15k pay cut for my “dream job” and while the finances took a while to adjust, the joy, sense of fulfillment and sheer happiness at work is worth it.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My husband and I made jumps like this one. One step backward but in the long run two or more steps forward.
      You guys will make it, it will be okay. Keep working together as a team on watching the finances. Make sure you both get proper rest, don’t let the money stuff keep you awake at night. It is what it is and it will get better in the future.
      It’s amazing what us humans can get through, especially when we know it will be better later.

      I am often inspired by a quote I read. Someone interviewed an elderly man in a nursing home. The man said, “I wish I had taken more chances.” I don’t want to be that person yet I am not a big risk taker. I became a fan of calculated risks, know the reasons why you are doing something and know that you are going toward a better future.
      Stay sharp and it will be okay.

      2. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. Many people will, for example, take a pay cut to get into state or federal service, knowing that they have a likely trajectory once they are “in”.

      3. Kiwiii*

        I did this a couple years ago, too, and it really worked out! I took a job that paid $1k less than my already meager salary with double the commute and no benefits because my then current job was a Nightmare nightmare and I knew the new job would afford me much better opportunities in the long run. A little under a year later I made a transition (almost entirely afforded to the paycut position) to a job that paid almost $8k more and had wonderful benefits, and now I’m in the process of making another transition (due, again, almost entirely to the last two positions) with an $9k raise, more interesting work, and nearly as wonderful benefits.

        Make the transitions that make sense for you! Just make sure you figure out the logistics and things, too, and maybe research cheaper alternatives to some of your current staples, if you find you need to ^.^

    6. Anono-me*

      You might find some savings in unexpected places. Remember, people tend to spend more money on convenience when they’re tired and stressed. (For example: This week has been a complete disaster. I’m picking up take out. )

  9. Jan Levinson*

    I work in a customer service role for a janitorial supply company. My primary job is to input orders in our system for “regular” items. I also have a colleague, Dwight, who does the same job as I do. Additionally, we “parts/service guy”, Jim who inputs all orders for nonstock parts, and subsequently orders said parts from our vendor. This has been the setup for many years now.

    Yesterday, I got an email from one of our sales people, Andy, to please enter an order for parts x, y, and z, and have the vendor overnight the order. I forwarded the email to our designated parts guy, Jim to please take care of Andy’s request. I CC’ed Andy in the email. Soon after sending the email, I was on the phone with a customer taking an order when I heard Andy say loudly from inside the office “so you can’t put the f***ing order in yourself?” He then stomped through the office to Dwight’s desk and said to Dwight, “I guess Jan is unwilling to enter this order, she’s trying to pass it along to Jim. I need this done ASAP and Jim isn’t at his desk. Can you enter this since Jan apparently can’t do it?” I was FUMING while on the phone with the customer overhearing this conversation. I had simply forwarded on an email to the correct personnel (btw, Andy is notorious for requesting information from the wrong person in our office. The interoffice staff is constantly passing along his emails to one another when he gives his requests to the wrong person.”

    By the time I was off the phone, Andy had already left the office. I sent him an email along the lines of “Andy, I want to clarify that I am always happy to enter orders for regular items. Since this was a parts order and Jim is the individual who orders parts, I passed the email along to him. Please do not be misunderstood that I was unwilling (or am ever unwilling) to assist when need be.”

    A few hours later when Andy returned to the office, he came to my desk and said, “no worries about the request earlier. I just needed it done ASAP and it seemed like you weren’t available to help.” No worries!? I should have been the one accepting an apology from him, not the other way around. He walked away quickly so I didn’t have time to respond.

    For some background, being helpful is my MO in the office. I respond to requests quickly and effectively, and have gotten excellent reviews in my time here (5 years). I was flabbergasted that Andy was seemingly attacking my work ethic.

    By the way, Dwight ended up passing Andy’s request along to Jim, the same thing that I had done.
    Anyway, bottom line is that it was timely seeing the update yesterday from the reader who couldn’t get over a brusque email from a colleague telling her she should check her work more carefully before sending emails. I read the original letter and loved Alison’s take that said colleague’s email response said more about their character than her own!

      1. valentine*

        What if everyone stops forwarding (especially the women, if you’re a woman, Jan) and replies to Andy with the correct person he should address?

    2. Spool of Lies*

      I work with an Andy so I feel your pain. He’s incapable of tempering his emotional reactions and always flies off the handles, then comes back acting so sweet and sincere like it’s no big deal that he just threw a temper tantrum and somehow I’m the one who should feel bad. He is the epitome of the missing stair.

    3. Sue Ellen Mischkey*

      I would report to Andy’s supervisor. Especially if he used that language.

      Since he is under the impression that ANYONE can order ANY parts (since he needs it ASAP) then why doesn’t HE just order the parts? (sarcasm) Oh, that’s not within his scope? Exactly…..

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, this is something I’d be bringing up to a supervisor. It’s not acceptable behavior in the slightest.

        1. Anonymous spending*

          I’d bring it up too. If he really needed you to do this, there are better ways to handle it. I surmise this is the tip of the Andy iceberg.

      2. Jan Levinson*

        I can definitely report it, but unfortunately I know it will make absolutely no difference. Andy (to my surprise) is our top sales rep, and has always brought in a ton of money. He’s been here for 15 years and is very comfortable in his position. His manager, Kevin, OTOH, is newish (1.5 years) and is quite the pushover. Andy has gotten a “talking to” from him before, and later I’ve heard him in our open office saying things along the lines of, “Ha, Kevin thinks he’s so big and bad. Give me a break.” (aka, I’m untouchable so don’t test me.)

        1. Qwerty*

          Can you report it to your own boss? Since a customer overheard the exchange (foul language and disparaging comments about you), that affects your reputation and your department’s reputation. At the very least it gives you documentation if this become a pattern that eventually needs to be escalated.

          1. Jan Levinson*

            Well, I don’t think the customer heard. I was on the phone with the customer about 25 feet away from Andy (not that that makes his behavior any better!) My company (while I enjoy my job) has a habit of dismissing behavior like this. I believe if I reported it to my boss she would sympathize somewhat (i.e. “he can be so rude sometimes,” “unfortunately, that’s Andy for you”, “well, there’s nothing we can do about it since corporate knows how much money he brings in.”), but that would be the end of it.

    5. Anono-me*

      When I get a ‘You were wrong, but I forgive you apology’ or an ‘The world is wrong and I’m a victim of it apology’; I like to sweetly and graciously thank the person for their apology and express gladness that they have learned X is correct in our situation or is how the world works. If I am feeling really POed, I might express concern that thre are other things that the obnoxious apologier doesn’t know, but should (Sun rises in the East ect.).

      I see thanking someone for an apology as being somewhat different than accepting the apology, but still avoiding starting another round.

    6. Staja*

      I am pretty sure that I used to work at the same Jan-San company… I feel your pain with the Andys (and Ryans and Stanleys) of the world.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Haha, it’s very possible that you did! It’s a small office, but a large company. There are many branches nationwide.

    7. theletter*

      “Andy, I would just like to clarify that swearing at people who are actively working to help you is not appropriate in an office setting. I was on the phone with a client. Thank God they didn’t hear you shouting.” You can stand up to this guy. He’s in sales, he’s used to people being direct with him.

  10. LionelRichiesClayHead*

    How stylized is your resume? Not talking about those templates that have your picture on them because that is odd (outside of specific areas) or ones that are clearly done for an artistic type of job, but is your formatting pretty plain or do you have a fancy name header or anything like that? While they are certainly aesthetically pleasing, when I look at the majority of templates available they seem a little more frou frou than I was expecting with some design elements especially around the name header. Is this normal now or is the fairly plain resume still the professionally accepted version?

    1. antipepsi*

      For my last job search, I used a plain, safely formatted resume for submitting online. In-person, I would use a stylized resume. I received a lot of compliments on it but I guess it also depends on your industry and what kind of company culture you’re trying to attract.

      1. LionelRichiesClayHead*

        Oh interested perspective to use one for the online submission and a jazzier version for the in-person!

    2. JobHunter*

      Mine is very plain. My name is 18-point Arial with my contact info below it in 11-point Arial. This is centered at the top of the page and separated from the rest if the document by a 1-point solid line. I use Arial bold for the headings and TNR for the body text. My titles and dates are italicized TNR. My KSA section at the end is divided into two columns, so I can fit more on the page. I also use page numbers centered at the bottom.

      1. LionelRichiesClayHead*

        Mine is similar. I feel like this is still normal but when I see the stylized versions I question it. But then I also remember that the people selling the resume templates are going to want to advertise with something that is interesting to look at for marketing reasons. Doesn’t mean it’s the right way to go. Unless of course you’re in a more creative sector.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I’m in a (kind of) creative field now where I spend 90% of my time writing, teaching others to write, and editing proposal submissions, and my resume is still plain. I use Georgia as my font type, and that’s as fancy as it gets, lol. The only people I know who have really beautiful resumes are graphic designers who work in marketing or marketing-adjacent fields.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Mine is also similar; I prefer the clean and easy to read look. However, my contact information prominently includes the link to my online portfolio (very relevant for marketing/video haha) which is a very stylized page!

    3. new kid*

      I think it for sure depends on the job/industry. I get a lot of compliments on my stylized resume, but I specifically am trying to come across as someone who creates professional, aesthetically pleasing documents because that’s typically a core function of the roles I’m applying to. If it’s not relevant to the role, at best it’s potentially helping you stand out in a sea of times new roman, but that’s assuming a) you even get the resume in front of real human eyes and b) your qualifications wouldn’t already do that on their own.

      So bottom line, if it’s not your thing I wouldn’t worry about it.

      1. LionelRichiesClayHead*

        I can definitely see how your role would call for a more stylized resume. And yes, I’m with you on the standing out part-I think I’m trying to figure out if I should branch out in the sea of TNR with maybe a jazzier name header or if my standard corporate type job should stick with the basics.

        1. new kid*

          If you’re comfortable creating that type of resume (or don’t mind shelling out a few bucks for a template from Etsy or similar) I don’t think it can hurt, honestly. I would just caution not to give up real estate to a fancy header that doesn’t have useful info in it, which I sometimes see in those kind of templates. If reformatting your resume to look ‘cooler’ means you lose even a single bullet point under your achievements, it’s not worth it.

          1. LionelRichiesClayHead*

            I think this is a really good call-out. If there is room for some style, great, but don’t favor it over including job-related information.

            I think i’m going to play around with my resume format this weekend and see if I can strike a balance between standard professional and slightly more modern. Thank you!

      2. Booksalot*

        This is where I fall. It benefits my brand to show that I’m capable of a creative-yet-clean design. I have a PDF resume (created in Indesign and Illustrator) that uses graphics and a more complicated layout, and a simpler Word resume for when applications require that file format.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Mine is laid out neatly. I use bold, italics and verious font sizes to indicate headings and such. My only indulgence is that it is in my favorite font with is Garmond. Nothing too strange and unless you know fonts, it just looks like a slightly more spaced Time New Roman.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Garamond is so pretty. I used to use it in every paper I submitted in high school until all of my teachers explicitly banned any font other than Times New Roman or Arial.

    5. TL -*

      I took one of the templates and simplified it a lot – my name is in blue and a different font and there’s a thick blue line on the left of the header and a slightly darker blue line to the left of the rest of the resume (that matches my name).

      Everything else is pretty standard – times New Roman, bullet points, ect… It adds a bit of pop by giving a nice framing, which is good because some of the jobs I’m applying to have a bit of a visual component. But the actual resume part is very standard.

    6. wingmaster*

      I would consider my resume to be simple but with some style elements – pop of color here and there with a border at the edges. I used to make my resumes with Ai, but now I have switched to Canva. I think with the industry I am in (fashion and apparel), having a stylized resume is acceptable.

    8. Layoff Laments*

      Thanks for this question, as I have been wondering the same! I opt to use a plain resume that is neatly organized. The roles I apply for require a small amount of graphic design, so I’m always going back and forth on whether my resume should be splashier. Can’t say for certain if a plain resume has hurt me or if a splashy resume would help me…

    9. MissGirl*

      Mine is more stylized. It’s my own template. I have gotten a lot of good feedback on it. I upload it as a PDF. It usually requires some cut and paste on the application side of things but most hiring managers download the pdf. The online stuff is more for the recruiters to filter you.

      If they get 100 resumes for the job, I want mine to be distinct. I don’t do infographics or anything crazy.

    10. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I use a somewhat stylized resume template I purchased for $15 (USD) on Etsy.com. I HIGHLY recommend this approach if you can afford it. I used it for my current job I got 2 years ago, and my boss still comments on my great-looking resume. In my case, the $15 also included the resume template for both Windows and Mac, and a multi-page resume writing guide (including a very helpful list of action words for my resume) Note that this was not an infographics resume template. But it does have my name in a larger font on the top, and some sections along the left-hand side of the page. I still recommend this approach though. Good luck!

    11. IL JimP*

      as someone who reads a lot of resumes, the style really doesn’t matter just please make sure it’s easy to read especially with font size and styles

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Mine is super plain. The only “fancy” elements are a line under my name & contact details in the header, and bold/italic fonts. I had a version that was kind of fancy, with bullet points and underlined headings etc. in a dark teal color, by my other half thought it looked weird so I dropped it.

      I love the look of some of the fancier templates but it seems like all the examples I’ve ever seen have a far more concise work history! I struggle to get mine to have all the pertinent information without being ridiculously terse.

    13. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Because of the dramas involved with the automated HR systems, I always recommend that folks avoid anything graphic in an ordinary resume being submitted electronically. I do not recommend pdfs. Just a nice MS Word format with minimal sass.

      Templates drive me nuts. Especially the ones that put your name in 48 pt type with unicorns racing down the sides. Does your name carry so much weight that they need to see it so exaggerated? And if so, then you probably didn’t need the embellishments.

      Provide the info they need in the places they were expecting it. Makes everyone’s life easier.

      1. post it*

        See, and I have always heard PDF recommended over Word documents because then you don’t have to worry about the formatting going wonky when the person on the other end opens it.

    14. Quinalla*

      My resume when I last used it was plain and easy to read font & font size and used bullet points under each job, etc. I’m a mechanical engineer though, so literally no one cares about anything but the content :) One of our principals actually has commented that he doesn’t care about the “ribbons and bows” our marketing folks add to various reports and presentations we do for clients and potential clients, he only cares about the technical content, so some kind of fancy/stylized resume might even been seen as a negative in my line of work.

  11. macademia*

    Hi guys, I’m working my first office job and had some question about emails:

    – Do you guys email people who are on the same floor as you? Do you email people who sit right next to you? Is this a sign that a coworker dislikes you?
    – I have some coworkers who CC my boss every time they send an email even if it’s just a thank you. Should I be concerned by this behavior?

    1. mixbag*

      i can only speak to 1, but yes!! i find it a lot easier to do this than to interrupt someone who’s working, or be interrupted. i don’t take it as a sign of dislike at all – rather that they know you’re busy and you’ll answer when you can, and they aren’t demanding your time immediately :)

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        This. It’s normal to use email to line up requests for your coworkers. That’s actually the default in many offices.

        The fun part is figuring out when it’s right to instant message, call, or talk to them in person (which I see as increasing levels of urgency, though some people IMs / calls are the other way around).

        1. Decima Dewey*

          In my city, city workers have been advised not to use informal messaging channels to conduct official city business. Examples of what we’re not supposed to use include text messaging, WhatsApp, Slack, LINE, Telegram, Skype, Facebook Messenger and Direct Messaging on Instagram and Twitter, etc..

          1. EinJungerLudendorff*

            Maybe that’s a security issue?
            Still weird if it’s applied that broadly though.

            1. HesterMae*

              Security, and in United States, government entities are subject Requests for Information- like FOIA (freedom of information act) but for other governmental levels.
              Also, retention schedules are affected (when to keep information and for how long).

    2. Bloated, Not Pregnant*

      1. Yes I do. I like to have things in writing plus it is good if I am focused on something at my desk and don’t want to get up (that usually means having a bunch of people stopping me to chat)
      2. It could just be that you are new, I wouldn’t read too much into it at this point. Maybe the boss asked people to cc her/him on emails to you so he can track what you are doing better. Plus having her/him cc’d on thank yous is always nice so your boss knows you are doing well.

    3. Bubbleon*

      I absolutely email people who sit right next to me, it’s not a sign of how I feel about anyone but just that I want to make sure we have things documented in case questions come up in future.
      Ask your boss about them being CCd. Maybe because you’re new they’ve asked other people to copy them, or it’s standard practice in your office to copy a person’s manager for visibility. I frequently copy managers when I’m emailing someone because their manager has asked to be kept in the loop when someone reaches out to their team with questions, again it’s nothing personal and mostly comes down to management styles and tenure.

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        I think you know you’ve hit a nerve if you’re going along in an email chain just between you two, then they suddenly loop in their manager or your manager (often with passive aggressive language). Sometimes that’s just a clarifying thing, but sometimes that’s more hostile. just blanket copying managers isn’t that weird depending on the role.

    4. LionelRichiesClayHead*

      I definitely email people who are in close proximity unless there is an emergency situation where I need an immediate answer. This really just has to do with me being respectful of each individual’s way of managing their workload and trying not to distract someone with an in-person message who might be trying to concentrate on other work.

      I have definitely seen this before and find it very odd. I think some people either have, or have had, micromanaging bosses who wanted to be included on everything. Or they think they need to do this for transparency or have been “burned” in the past by people throwing them under the bus. I don’t think this is normal and I would never do this unless my boss specifically requested it. But if a boss actually requested that I would also be looking for a different job. I’m not saying I never include my boss on emails but it’s the exception not the rule.

    5. Adminx2*

      If I want to track a to do item, it goes in an email. Period.
      If it’s just an FYI or not priority, I instant message.

      I wouldn’t say their CCing everytime is a sign, but bring it up at your next 1:1 with your boss and ask about the office norms (it’s their job as your first boss and meetings you should be having regularly).

    6. Kimmybear*

      I am a big proponent of walking over and chatting but I regularly email people that sit 2 cubes over. Here are a few reasons why:
      – Paper trail so I made sure that I remembered to tell them something and that they can reference the notes
      – because they may need to forward it to someone else or I need to copy 2-3 other people
      – because I don’t want to interrupt them or they are in a meeting and I need to get it off my plate and onto their’s
      – because some days I’m just tired and can’t get up out of my chair
      – because sometimes I’m stuck in an awful meeting/conference call and I can email them even if I can’t get up and talk to them.

      As for the cc, it can really vary by office culture and personality. My company copies everyone and their mother on everything and it drives me bonkers.

    7. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

      I will email people nearby for any number of reasons, including:
      (1) I am asking a question that is better answered in writing than verbally (such as, can you send me the link to XYZ).
      (2) I’m providing information that would be useful for them to have in written form (e.g. so they can file it somewhere).
      (3) I am asking a question that is not urgent enough to bother the person with immediately when they are in the middle of something else; sending it by email lets them get to it when it’s convenient to them.
      (4) I’ve been by their office and they are away from their desk, but rather than remember to check later I send the email while I am thinking about whatever the issue is.
      (5) I want someone else to know that I’ve communicated with the person, so I need an email to cc them on.
      I’m sure there are other reasons as well, none of which are “I dislike the person.”

      cc’ing your boss on a “thank you” is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be a way of letting your boss know that they think you did something helpful. But more generally, if you are new, it may be that your boss has asked to be included on your correspondence while you ramp up. Or, it may just be a thing that some people do, on the assumption that your boss likes to know what you’re up to. If it worries you, consider checking with your boss about it directly: “Hey, I’ve noticed people cc’ing you on their correspondence with me; is that something you generally want?”

      Good luck! Email etiquette is an easy thing to overthink, but more often than not any motivations you read into people’s email style are likely as not imaginary.

      1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

        Oh, poo – this was supposed to be a response to someone else’s comment. Rats. I’ll try again.

        1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

          Hahah nevermind it was exactly where it was supposed to be. I’ll just go get some coffee.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Email is really important for record-keeping, which is one big reason why yes, I’ll use it even if someone sits right next to me. I like to have a record. Also, writing something helps me organize my thoughts better.

      The cc’ing your boss is likely a culture thing; in some offices, the boss gets cc’d so she can stay in the loop. Also, in some cases, people will cc your boss as kind of a, “macademia did this for me and it was great and I wanted you to know.”

    9. Mbarr*

      1. I email everyone, no matter where they sit. The only time I don’t email is if it’s an urgent question (and even then, I usually send an IM). Reason for it include: Paper trail, not wanting to interrupt other people’s work, etc.
      2. The CC’ing the boss thing is weird. I wouldn’t be concerned, but I’d ask your boss if they want that to happen. Maybe there’s a reason, but most likely the boss is like, “Stop spamming me!”

      For #2, if your boss doesn’t want to be included on emails, start BCC’ing them off of the email, but highlight that you’re removing them.

      A. Click reply.
      B. Move boss’ email to BCC line.
      C. In the body of the email, type, “Removing X by BCC”
      D. Continue with email.

      My old manager looooooved how I’d remove them from email threads that grew out of control or no longer relevant.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I wish this would become an office standard, but people just don’t seem to want to take the time to do it.

      2. min*

        I’m confused, how would moving the boss’s email to the bcc line remove them from the email chain? Bcc is blind carbon copy on every email I’ve ever used.

        1. HesterMae*

          After the first, bcc email, the boss gets left off the remainder of the email thread, but everyone is aware.

    10. Catsaber*

      1. Yes, I will email people on my same floor/sitting right next to me, because it serves as a good written record, like a request or question that I need a recorded response to. If it’s something more casual, I will send them a message in chat, because that allows them to respond on their own time and not get disrupted (we are database developers). Definitely not a sign your coworker dislikes you, unless it’s combined with a bunch of other weird behavior (like they refuse to speak to you in person about anything).

      2. I CC my boss on a lot of stuff, but it’s usually those things that we need records of, and to keep him informed. I’m part of a data warehouse team, and so he needs to be in the loop about stuff. But definitely not for everything, especially not stuff like thank yous. I don’t know if you need to be concerned, but you could ask your boss what their preference is.

    11. Sara*

      I do email my coworkers who sit in my area…and wish that they would do the same more often. Not all the time, of course, but I tend to find it the most efficient way to communicate non-urgent information without interrupting anyone’s workflow. It doesn’t make a lot of sense if it’s really pressing and/or a longer conversation is needed, but for quick stuff that doesn’t have to be addressed immediately it’s my preference.

    12. OperaArt*

      It’s common at my job to email closely located colleagues, usually to keep a “paper” trail or to act as a record of ideas.

    13. Samwise*

      Do you guys email people who are on the same floor as you? YES, all the time

      Do you email people who sit right next to you? YES, if we need a record of the correspondence or if the other person is busy and I’m busy and if I don’t email it, it’s gonna get forgotten. Something super quick and simple: gchat. Otherwise, email.

      Is this a sign that a coworker dislikes you? NO. (unless you’re getting other signals about dislike)

      I have some coworkers who CC my boss every time they send an email even if it’s just a thank you. Should I be concerned by this behavior? NO, but your coworkers are probably driving your boss bonkers. Just check with your boss at your next check in: Boss, I noticed some folks cc you emails I’m receiving; should I be cc’ing you when I’m emailing others in the office?

    14. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      1. Yes, I do. It makes life so much easier to have things in writing, especially if I am tracking the status of something or am looking for information from the person. It’s easy to flag it for follow up if needed, too. Plus, like someone above said, if the other person is in the middle of something or on the phone, I’m not interrupting.

      2. It could be standard procedure in your office/department, or a preference from your boss to be looped in on everything. I’ve definitely worked for people like that.

    15. Saraphina*

      I work for the federal government and we have strict record-keeping policies, so better safe than sorry to put it in an email.

    16. shep*

      Unless I have a particularly complicated discussion item or a list of quick, pertinent-to-my-workflow-immediately things that would probably be easier to run through in person, I put pretty much everything in email so (1) it’s documented on my end and (2) the person can get to it when they have time.

      I try to limit the amount of people I CC on emails, but I’ve come to realize that CCing behavior is really specific to workplace culture. It’s different even among departments in my workplace. I think the best thing to do is just ask your supervisor if and when you should be CCing. I definitely CC my supervisor when I’m embarking on a new and/or quarterly interdepartmental project or something similar so she’s aware. I’m still not great at it and tend to overthink whether or not she (and often others) needs to be CCd, so I find myself pulling back every once in a while so I’m not inundating her with EVERYTHING going on in my workflow.

      But again, I think it’s largely specific to your office’s culture and your supervisor’s preference.

    17. EddieSherbert*

      1) yes, yes, no. I like email because it lets me track important stuff easily, it lets me get back to something later, and doesn’t interrupt whatever I’m currently working on.

      2) That is weird in my opinion. I’m not sure if it’s a sign you should be concerned though, unless their emails are correcting/arguing with/reprimanding you.

    18. Nicki Name*

      1) Not in my workplace… because we prefer to IM people who sit right next to us. Either way, it’s a way of distinguishing “Could you answer this when you have time” from “I need your attention ASAP” (which is where we attempt physical talking).

      2) As other comments have pointed out, it depends. But personally I wouldn’t be concerned if people wanted to let my boss know every time they thanked me. :-)

    19. so many resumes, so little time*

      I email people on my floor/right next to me all the time and did even before we switched to an open office. I like having a written record.

      I have one colleague who, instead of emailing his replies, will come to my office to answer my questions. I always make him stop while I open a file or start a new email and write everything down, so there’s no confusion later about what was said. Not because my colleague is trying to cause trouble but because it’s easy to forget or mis-remember things that are spoken.

      Some bosses like to be copied on everything, especially with new employees. Hopefully that won’t last long for you.

    20. House Tyrell*

      My office is big on emailing people, even if they are literally right next to you and you share a cubicle wall. It leaves a paper trail, but also allows the person to answer you later if they are busy at the moment.

      I would personally find CCing the boss really annoying if it was on everything, but if you’re still new, it might be so they can be able to see what you’re up to and see the good things you’re doing- like when you get thank yous. I wouldn’t be concerned unless it was mostly negative or seemed passive aggressive.

    21. Asta*

      I totally email people who sit nearby, or message on Slack. Otherwise I would constantly disturb them from working, make them lose their train of thought etc. It’s just polite.

      Not sure about the cc thing though!

    22. cat socks*

      1. Yes, I will email people on the same floor or next to me. It helps to have documentation of the issue. And a lot of times people are on conference calls so I can’t just walk over to them and ask my question. I’ll email them so I don’t forget to ask later. Sometimes we’ll end up chatting later about the question in the email or they will also respond back via email.

      2. I think it’s overboard to CC the boss on every email. My boss gets a ridiculous amount of email already I couldn’t imagine copying him on everything I sent.

    23. AnonEMoose*

      Not only do I routinely email people on the same floor and/or sit near me, I’ve actually asked my boss to instruct co-workers to email me rather than stopping by my desk at particularly busy times.

      It’s nothing personal. But at the time I was on a hard deadline, and doing complex work that required sustained attention. An interruption, even for “just a quick question” could cost me 30 minutes or more. And it was time I didn’t have.

      Plus, for the coworkers, it was “one quick question.” For me, it was 10 people interrupting me. Even if they each only asked me one question a day…at 30 minutes per interruption, that adds up fast. But if they emailed me, I could answer them between tasks, and so it was maybe 5-10 minutes instead of having to take my attention away from what I was doing, pull up the relevant records and figure out the answer, and then have to go back to what I was doing and try to determine where I’d left off.

      I also got my boss’s permission to send calls directly to voicemail during that time. And to implement a few “make asking me the less easy option” strategies. Maybe extreme, but what I needed to do to get through the work in the time available.

    24. Beancounter Eric*

      Email people close by – of course you should – “If it isn’t written down, it never happened.”

      CC’ing the Boss – I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.

    25. Virginia Girl*

      1. Yep! I work in a office where we are all on the same floor. I use email all the time.
      2. No clue.

    26. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      1. I absolutely email people who sit on the same floor as me and people who sit right next to me. As others have said, I like to have things in writing and I don’t want to run the risk of interrupting someone.
      2. I don’t subscribe to cc’ing the world on my emails. I send to (and cc) only relevant parties. I will cc the higher ups if things have escalated to a critical point.

    27. ACDC*

      I frequently email the person who sits next to me because my works requires a lot of things to be in writing. She knows I’m not doing it to avoid speaking with her, but it 1) allows her to respond on her own terms and timeline, and 2) keeps everything in writing to document steps, processes, etc.

    28. Mama Bear*

      1. Sometimes, yes. We may need the paper trail or if it’s a task vs a question, they may need to revisit it later. I don’t think it’s always a sign that they don’t like you. Do they ever talk to you? Or do they actively avoid you? Is it just you or everyone? I used to work in an open office (meh) and some of the folks were chatty and some really kept to themselves.

      2. It’s a little weird to CC the boss on a thank you except if the boss was cc’d earlier or they think the boss needs to see that a particular issue was resolved. Bosses need to be kept in the loop and this may be the coworker’s way of doing so. Or the boss may have asked them to do that either all the time or for that project.

      Is the coworker who doesn’t talk to you also the same one that cc’s the boss on everything? That may say more about them than you.

    29. C*

      tl;dr: Yes. Yes. No. Probably not.

      My use of email vs. face-to-face depends a lot on what it is we’re talking about. I often pop my head over the cube wall if I need something from my neighbor, but not always, particularly if there are other people who need the info he provides. My floor is large, so I usually only go physically to someone’s desk if i have something that’s really time-sensitive or would just take too long to get into over email. Most of the time they’re not at their desk, anyway, so it would be a waste of time to do on the regular.

      As for ccing the boss, that’s not a thing that would usually happen at my company, but that is super company and team (and boss) culture dependent. I only cc someone’s boss on stuff if it’s time sensitive and the person I’m emailing might be out of the office, or if I know it’s something their boss would want to be aware of. In your case it, especially since your new, it could be a way to make sure your boss is aware of all the things you are doing, so not a tattle-tale thing, but as a “macademia is doing good work” thing. Or it could be that their boss likes to be cc’d on everything so they automatically cc other people’s bosses on everything. Hard to say.

    30. Urdnot Bakara*

      To your first question, I sit right next to three coworkers with whom I work directly and yes, we email each other. If it’s a quick request or a question, sometimes we lean over and ask, but sometimes it’s clear the coworker is busy so I email. I definitely have colleagues on the same floor who will walk over and talk to me when they need something, but I’m lazy so I just email! My boss’s desk is also close to me but he rarely comes over and talks to me–usually just emails or calls. TL;DR walking over and talking to someone is fine, but emailing is also perfectly fine no matter how close someone sits, and not a sign of dislike!

    31. Kate H*

      I think both of these depend partly on office culture.

      1. In my office, it’s perfectly normal to email people who sit right next to you. I do it ALL the time. It’s partially so there’s a paper trail of conversations–it’s not uncommon for me or my boss to go digging through our emails to find something someone sent us months ago. It also means we’re not constantly breaking each others’ concentration to talk about something that can easily be discussed by email.
      2. My office encourages liberal use of “reply all.” About 90% of my emails include CCs to my boss, and another 50% include our department head as well. In theory, this is so everyone’s on the same page if upper management wants to know how a project is going, or if someone needs to weigh in. In practice, it’s often micro-managing. You can certainly ask if this is common practice in your office and how your boss wants you to handle emails.

    32. hamburke*

      OldJob required that I cc my boss on every email – I found it annoying but did it. At CurrentJob, I cc my boss when I need her input, send reports to clients or do work above and beyond the contract (so she knows to bill them for project work). I email her directly when I need to pass some work to her, remind her of something or when she’s busy/on the phone and I need her input so I can set that aside and move on to something else. I like my boss and respect her workflow – definitely not a sign that I dislike her, more a sign that I can’t multitask very well b/c I’ll forget my question once I set it aside. I will interrupt with important things or items that need immediate attention plus, both of us like to have a paper trail to check back to.

  12. LGC*

    So, to update the saga of the office pooper from last week: my coworker and I both suggested that we stock the bathrooms with deodorizers to one of the VPs. And she said she’d look into it! (Which is something, because I’ve been summarily shot down before about facilities stuff since we’re a non-profit.)

    Also, I’ve (re-)introduced my coworker to the “Girls Don’t Poop” ad and it was a hit.

  13. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    Once again, a manager who has been reported to HR and Ethics multiple times, has caused almost 100% turnover in their department because they are a noxious, toxic mess, and who is just….a bad person, has gotten a hefty promotion. Why does this happen? When do the honest, kind, hard-working non-airbags get their share?

    1. Data Nerd*

      Wouldn’t know–I’ve just had my own promotion sabotaged by my department head because if I’m promoted to the same level as his little princess, I’ll make her look bad. Why yes, I am working on my resume.

    2. HR Disney Princess*

      Ugh – I’m sorry, I worked for an HR Director previously who was so mean she had made multiple people cry from personal insults that she hurled at them. I ended up quitting as it was my first HR job but I knew that it couldn’t be normal, and another person left the department as well. It was well known that she was terrible to anyone
      “below” her and didn’t care to help anyone… She is now the VP of HR at her company.

      Sometimes bad people suck up to the decision makers and they don’t see all the bad stuff. :(

    3. Michael Valentine*

      This is so hard to deal with! It reminds me of when the girl who bullied me in school won an award for being a good Christian at the end of the year.

      Many times, the offenders are really good at making others look like the problem. “Everyone who couldn’t deal with our department’s high standards left.” Or there’s the boss who’s “great” at managing the budget, but they do it at the expense of everyone’s efficiency–I had a director who got her position from being this way, and it meant that we never had pens (or anything else we needed) and she said we should order from the $1 menu at McDonald’s when on the road (we traveled usually for a whole week at a time). I once got a $20 annual raise. We looked like money wasters if we said anything, so she kept getting accolades for her penny pinching!

      1. Mellow*

        “It reminds me of when the girl who bullied me in school won an award for being a good Christian at the end of the year.”

        The things that make me want to just positively scream…

      2. Windchime*

        ‘Many times, the offenders are really good at making others look like the problem. “Everyone who couldn’t deal with our department’s high standards left.” ‘

        Yes, this! I had a bully manager who was this way. She was so destructive, but she had a calm, rational way of eviscerating her employees. Her peers all knew she was terrible and toxic, but people above her just saw her calm, ‘rational’ approach and loved her. She fired 1/3 of the department and was working on firing others; her punishment was being promoted to Director over the objections of her peers and HR. All the time, she kept saying that she had high standards for the department and this kind of work “isn’t for everybody”. Finally, the department banded together and someone in a very high position took notice and, after an investigation, she was fired. But not before she completely destroyed the reputation of the department and drove countless people to quit or get fired.

    4. No name*

      It can happen. My workplace’s C-suite not too long ago fired the head of my department and his underling, who caused insane amounts of turnover in the department and tanked morale. Since then, the search is still in-process for their replacements and the very higher-ups are assisting with handling the day-to-day operations in the meantime. My division was notified of job title restructuring that resulted in me getting a nearly 15% raise, and that still doesn’t account for the annual salary increase that will be coming.

      Sometimes, dreams come true. I’m just sad the fired people got to wreak havoc for a few years first.

    5. KnittyGritty*

      I’m firmly convinced that people like that get promoted “up out of the way”. The company knows they are awful and don’t do any work, so the promotion is just to get them out of the way of the people actually doing the work.

    6. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      I believe that there is a book entitled “The Peter Principle”, which said you get promoted up to the level of your incompetence.

      I didn’t read the book, but it really makes sense.

      1. buttrue???*

        I knew a guy who this held for and then some. I was a coop with my work station in a different area then my boss. One on the guys in this section was given little to no work and couldn’t find the simplest things in the file cabinet.

      2. TPS Cover Sheet*

        It though doesn’t cover malevolence and promoting the pointy-haired bosses ”out of the way” because they are incompetent in what they are now. The ”peter principle” is that you are good in what you do now, but then you get promoted and are out of your league.
        There however is the ”dilbert principle” by Scott Adams, which states that companies tend to systematically promote incompetent employees to management to get them out of the workflow. Which I think applies here.

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      In the case of my toxic former manager, who was also reported to HR and her higher ups on multiple occasions, it was because she was so utterly charming to the people she didn’t abuse that no one believed us. Never mind that there were ~40 people in the organization who had to be transferred to different departments because of her bullying, she’s just so much fun at the manager meetings and she schmoozes so well with donors and volunteers! How bad can she really be? *headdesk*

    8. Mama Bear*

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

      Or there’s someone protecting that person. I know someone who has caused nearly 100% turnover in the area they oversee (some jobs more than one person has left) but the big bosses won’t budge. They would rather have a revolving door than replace the bad manager. My guess is that there’s an EEO complaint somewhere or they have friends in high places.

  14. Audiophile*

    I got a job!

    I’m so excited to start. I’ll be moving away from the nonprofit sector and joining a small digital agency. Really excited for this new chapter. Really glad it moved pretty quickly.

    2. Mbarr*

      Welcome to the capitalist side of things! You need a magnet like mine, “Proudly serving my corporate masters.”

  15. Lucette Kensack*

    How do you include a promotion on your LinkedIn when it is really just a delayed acknowledgment of your appropriate title?

    I got a new title and salary as of July 1, but my work isn’t changing. (The new title reflects the work that I have been doing for the past several years; I’ve had to do battle with my organization to be given an accurate title.) I want to celebrate it, get congratulations from my network, etc…. but aside from the title itself, there are no new or different bullet points.

    On my resume, it’s pretty straightforward. I do something like this:

    New Title (July 2019 – )
    Old Title (September 2017 – June 2019)
    – Accomplishments

    But LinkedIn doesn’t let you combine titles in the same way (unless I’ve just missed that functionality, in which case yay).

    Any ideas?

    1. Jimming*

      I’d add a short sentence about the promotion under the new title. Something like “Promoted to Job Title due to taking on more responsibilities over the past 2 years” Something of that nature to summarize what you said here. Congrats!

    2. Five after Midnight*

      Congratulations! For LinkedIn, I’d recommend one of two options:
      1. Convert current job listing to use New Title but leave the starting date alone. (September 2017 – ). Then in the job description the first line would be Old Title (September 2017 – June 2019) and then your accomplishments starting on the second line. – This is how I handle(d) all my promotions.
      2. Create a new position with New Title and new starting date (July 2019 – ) and move all accomplishments to this new job. Then change the original Old Title section to have a closing date (September 2017 – June 2019) and leave job description blank. Over time you may be able to add more bullets/accomplishments to the New Title listing and move some of the older ones to Old Title section.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      From an employment verification standpoint, just list your new title as starting on July and your previous position as ending in June. You should probably move your accomplishments with the old title, unless/until they pay off when you’re in the new title (i.e. you started a project that finished when you officially have your new title.

      That may help show “progressively greater responsibilities” as a bonus.

  16. Eillah*

    I’m covering for a coworker this morning and feel way too guilty about farting in her chair.

    3. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      But will the coworkers next to you pay the price from your recent deviled egg and beer bash?

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      LMAO! I’m so glad I work from home now – the only person who’ll be farting in my chair is me.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      The one who will really care is the person downwind of your fan right now.

  17. General Chaos Wrangler*

    I just got an offer to go full-time at the job I’ve been working part time since December. The offer is about 20% more than I’m making now, and about 10% more than I would have asked for. Other benefits are comparable.

    I’m excited because it would mean escaping the slightly to very toxic workplace (I’ve said Allison could write her whole next book on this place) that I’ve been at for the last 4 ½ years. My boss has been very good to me over the years: regular raises, appreciation gift cards, and we’ve talked about me advancing in the company. It’s a small, boy’s club kind of place, so that is huge. On the flip side, this is a very exclusive arrangement, where he as a C-Suite is going above and beyond for a direct report. This is not the company culture, even senior managers have to ask for raises after, 3-5 years.

    Anyway, as much as I want to leave, the idea of leaving is terrifying. Of course there’s guilt about leaving a boss who’s been good to me, and “better the devil you know,” right? How have all of you dealt with resignation guilt, and silenced your doubts?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      It sounds like your boss is a good person who wants you to succeed, so the odds are that they will be very happy for you!

      And the thing about “the devil you know” is that not all jobs are hell! Which is sometimes hard to remember.

      Congrats, and good luck!

    2. Minocho*

      I try to take emotion out of it by making lists of pros and cons. The lists can include emotion (job satisfaction or cool coworkers are totally pros, for example!), but then the decision is about seeing it all laid out and deciding relative value of the listed pros and cons.

      Another tool I use is the advice of people I trust. I have a much easier time sorting through emotional things with emotional intelligence when I am not personally involved, so if I have people I truly trust, I ask for their perspective. They will also value my emotional needs, but have a clearer perspective. I don’t take anyone’s advice without my own examination of it, but it can give me a much better outside perspective to help me balance my current emotional state.

    3. new kid*

      I’ve always struggled with the “better the devil you know” mindset because I’ve had situations where I’ve moved from bad to worse, and that seems especially easy to do when you’re desperate to get out of a bad situation. But besides trying to look at the new role as objectively as possible and making sure you ask the right questions up front so you know what you’re getting into, I think a big part of it really can be attitude. When I find myself overthinking on worst case scenarios, now I try to force myself to think ‘what’s the *best* thing that could happen?’ and be in that mindset instead. It’s hard, but I think it’s really making a difference.

    4. Clementine*

      I have made some bold job switches. Here are a few things that may help.

      * Acknowledge it’s possible the move is a mistake due to some unknown factors. If so, what will be your backup plan? This may seem counter-intuitive, but I find it really helpful to know that I have thought through worst-case scenarios. It’s human and expected that you do not have perfect knowledge, and you are doing the best with the knowledge you do have.
      * Acknowledge you will miss some features of your old workplace. That is totally okay.
      * Think about the situation if you were the boss. Would you want an employee to stay in a sub-optimal situation if she had something better on offer? A fair and reasonable person, which of course many are not, wants their employees to flourish, even if it’s outside their team.
      * Think about all the horrors you are leaving behind. As soon as you leave, you will feel a huge weight lifted, I am sure. I know that bad jobs can leave their psychic mark, but mostly I quit worrying and fretting about impossible situations as soon as I am out of them.

    5. Kiwiii*

      With someone who has been supportive of you, while they may be disappointed to see you go, it’s pretty likely that they’ll continue to be supportive as you leave. Money reasons are good reasons to leave, as is being there for 4+ years. You can tell him how much you’ve appreciated him while in the position.

  18. Adminx2*

    What I wish I could psychically blast to the world:

    It’s hot and humid in much of the northern hemisphere and will likely become more so for another month. Please use half the scents you normally would.

    Also still convinced outdoor picnic to grill for 150 people in late August afternoon is a bad idea.

    1. Mbarr*

      Why?! Why do people still insist on wearing scents to work?! I can’t figure out if they’re just oblivious or obnoxious.

      1. Moray*

        It baffles me too. It’s probably the same motivation that makes them wear perfume/cologne on public transportation.

        1. Tib*

          People usually put fragrance on before they leave the house. They’re not doing it at you.

          2. nekosan*

            Actually – sometime, yes, people do use perfume in a 100% intentional offensive manner, The few times I’ve told someone that their scent is probably lovely but unfortunately gives me a migraine, they have decided to “test” this out by spraying their perfume directly outside my cubicle (causing me to go home for a few days with a migraine).

        3. Peacock*

          What is so baffling about people wanting to smell nice? Like Tib says, no one wears fragrance *at* someone and there’s no malicious intent behind it. I highly doubt anyone wears fragrance with the purpose of pissing off the small percentage of people with scent sensitivity.

      2. Liz*

        Better yet the POOL. I was doing laps in my complex pool last night after work, and there was a group of teenage/early 20s girls right on the other side of the lane, just hanging out chatting. Which is fine but every time I swam past them, i got a whiff of nasty, cheap perfume.

    2. London Calling*

      It’s preferable to the wafts of BO from the people straphanging on the underground. Wash your pits, people, and DEODORANT.

      1. Former Admin turned Project Manager*

        In an ideal world, everyone would be familiar with the concept of bathing properly and using unscented products. I can be clean and fresh without having to smell like flowers or woods!

    3. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      For me it’s not perfume/cologne so much as its scented laundry detergents & fabric softener. Horrible things and I really wish that they would go away. I was at a public garden on Tuesday and a family of about 5 passed me. The smell was so strong my eyes watered and my sinus’ started to swell – if we had been in an enclosed room I would have started to have breathing issues.
      It’s weird, I know a lot of people that have stopped using perfume/cologne because so many people have scent related issues – but never even thought about detergents!

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, there is a particular brand of laundry soap I can smell from a mile away. And I can literally tell when my neighbor is doing laundry because of the perfume-y dryer sheets she uses.

        There is a lady who gets to work before me. Once in awhile we have arrived at the same time, so I know who she is. Anyway, I can tell when she is already at work because the elevator smells so strongly of her perfume that I can barely breathe. I feel sorry for her co-workers.

      2. Liz*

        HATE LOATHE AND DESPISE any and all scented laundry stuff. i just can’t stand it. I have the same reaction you do. along with a headache. it drives me batty

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I was working on something the other day where I had to stop into the leasing office at a bunch of different apartment complexes. I walk into one, and it has this sickly-fruity-musky smell, like a musky Love Spell from Victoria’s Secret. I was in there for 15 seconds and I was like, I can’t take this.

      I sucked it up long enough to have my brief meeting, but yikes. It was awful! My hair reeked for a good hour or two after. I have no idea how anyone who lives in the building or works in that office functions.

    5. Say no to perfume*

      I have a rant that I like to perform about how perfume is entirely unnecessary now. It was invented during a period of history when we did not have things like washing machines or deodorant or regular bathing, so people used perfume to cover the BO. And now that we have those things, there is far less need of perfume, and my fellow asthmatics and I would dearly love it if perfume would just go away already.

      That’s the short version.

    6. Quinalla*

      I’ve noticed a sharp decrease in the amount of people wearing perfumes, etc. and how strong, but still, every once in awhile I walk past someone and about fall over. I am very sensitive to odors, so unless I am having a physical reaction or it is somewhere I have to be for a long stretch and/or often (work, home, etc.) then I try to let folks be about it and if I am having a physical reaction, I try to be kind in a request to tone it done or just don’t burn that candle here please or whatever and assume good faith.

      1. Washed Out Data Analyst*

        I feel vindicated in how much less popular perfume is nowadays. Growing up, my parents always wore really strong perfume that gave me headaches and made me nauseous. When I complained about it, my mom told me to shut up and it was all just psychological, and that I was too sensitive. I’m glad to see that it’s definitley not just me!

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      This week I finally worked up the nerve to ask someone NOT to wear so much.
      I was at my desk and the air was fine. He walked past and WOW.
      I went right over. “I’m sorry, I have to ask you to not wear so much cologne. It triggers my migraines.”
      “Oh okay” he said. And he hasn’t reeked since.
      SCORE ONE FOR THE AAM READER.
      Next up… third attempt at getting the new contract facilities team to NOT refresh the air freshener gel packs in the bathroom near me. This was agreed on months ago with the HR rep who they report to, but every time staff changes, they forget to include the exception and I have to hold my breath to use the toilet.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Could you ask for the holder to be removed in that bathroom, or if that isn’t possible, for a notice to be put on it or for it to be sealed in some way? That way, even if the staff are not told there is an exception, either they can’t because there is nowhere to put the gel pack, or there is a reminder at the point they are doing it.

  19. A Nonnus Mousicus*

    Dear AAM Hivemind – I have run into something of a quandary. I started my current job less than a year ago. At the point that I accepted the offer, I was very enthusiastic about the position and the company – feeling that it was going to be a good change for me to have something much more regimented and stable. As the months have gone on, however, I’ve found myself starting to burn out. The company itself is excellent and financially solid, I love the people that I work with, but the work/life balance just doesn’t exist. My time is counted down to the second, every moment gone over with a fine toothed comb. This is, in part, due to the type of company that it is and the work that we do. Not to mention the fact that my department seems to be simultaneously neglected and micromanaged. Even if I were to bring up these concerns with my manager, I’d be very surprised if anything ever actually changed. I have a young child at home and know that the fact that I have no flexibility and no chance of ever getting it is already taking a huge toll on my mental health. I have a possible opportunity to jump ship to a company where my friend works (at which they are thriving). My dilemma is this, although I am completely worn down to the bone and know that to continue would be disastrous for me, I still feel a great deal of guilt at possibly leaving this job. When I started I was in something of a difficult situation and they took care of me. As well, I know that I am an essential part of a lot of different projects in a department that is already spread pretty thin. If I were to leave, it would cause a lot of problems. On top of all of this, it’s been less than a year and that may reflect poorly on my resume (though I have been at most of my previous jobs for 2 years or more). I feel that the answer is probably staring me right in the face, but I would welcome feedback from you all, faithful Ask a Manager readers.

    1. MissBliss*

      I am of the opinion that ultimately, you need to take care of yourself. It might put them in a tough spot, but even if you waited until next year, or five years from now, to leave, they’re probably going to be in a tough spot. It’s better for all involved for you to leave before you get too burnt out.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      Get out. Get ouuuuuuut. *rattles chains like Jacob Marley*
      They’re taking such a toll on you because of how short-staffed they are. And as for the short stay, if it’s just one, and you have a clear explanation, I have to imagine that’d be okay.
      And if you feel guilty about doing it for yourself: do it for kiddo. I will be very surprised if kiddo hasn’t noticed that you’re stressed– these things bleed out, and kids are clever buggers. Teaching your child that it’s okay to put your health first is a really important lesson.

      1. A Nonnus Mousicus*

        Not gonna lie, this made me get a bit misty. My kid is still just a peanut, but I am very sure that he sees how stressed I am.

        1. Mimi*

          One of the lessons my mom taught me is to get out of a job when you need to.

          She did this by staying in a bad job too long, which is not the way I recommend to teach that lesson.

          (It was complicated, the job had paid for my college and way paying for my brother’s… but she needed to leave, and things worked out okay after she did.)

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Another reason you need to get out is that if the job is taking a serious toll on your mental health, you won’t be in the best position to interview well, which is going to greatly impact the types of jobs you’ll be able to get. You need to be (relatively) well-rested and clearheaded during a job search to ensure you’re not missing red flags that will have you ending up in a situation that’s just as bad (or worse) than the one you’re trying to escape. Good luck.

    3. LionelRichiesClayHead*

      I’m not trying to be insensitive or say that you aren’t an important part of the company, but anytime anyone leaves there are challenges that have to be dealt with in terms of important projects and workloads. It’s a normal part of business to have to make those adjustments. They will be fine.

      Take care of yourself, be gracious, give the standard notice, make as much effort as you can to wrap up and transition your work, and move on to the opportunity where it is more likely you will thrive. I’m thrilled you have found something that will fit your life better. It’s so important!

    4. Four lights*

      I would say don’t be afraid to leave. if this is what’s best for you and your life in your career, then you should do it. If something happened to that business and it was it was best for them to let you go they would do it. I think it’s been set here before that having a job less than a year on your resume isn’t the biggest deal, it’s more of a pattern that the problem.

    5. Anonymous Poster*

      You have a reasonable reason for leaving – you liked the work and what you were doing, but you simply needed a workplace that lets you better accommodate your changing life and family circumstances.

      That’s reasonable, and if it’s not a pattern, no one will really blame you for that one. Go forth and feel no guilt.

    6. Overeducated*

      Make sure you’d be jumping into a better situation in terms of flexibility and culture, but don’t feel guilty about leaving a situation that isn’t working for you, as workers we can all be replaced. I think the answer staring you right in the face is that you can and should try to get out of a job that really isn’t working for you.

    7. Samwise*

      Same as what every one else is saying, plus this: it sounds like the department is understaffed and underresourced (spread thin, neglected) as well as poorly managed / micromanaged. That’s on *them* — they are not providing the resources needed.

      Also, they did not hire you just to be nice — they hired you because they judged that you would be a good worker. Not matter how nice they are, they would not have hired you only to help you out. Especially not into an underresourced department…

    8. Minocho*

      Yes, as others have said, you have to take care of yourself. I have a hard time doing this too – and I totally get feeling grateful for an opportunity and terrible for “leaving so soon”. But you have a little person depending on you, so it’s doubly important you take care of yourself so you have the spoons to take care of them too (for me, I must have energy left to serve my feline masters when I get home. Furry eternal toddlers…). What you can do is begin the search. Who know how long it will take, but find something that meets your needs. When you have it, you show your gratitude to your current company by giving them notice and giving them your time and effort until the end of your notice period.

      Good luck!

    9. LadyByTheLake*

      The answer IS staring you right in the face. Leave. A year is plenty of time, you owe them nothing. Get out.

    10. Zephy*

      If the business thought it made sense to let you go, you’d have been gone yesterday. Leaving one job after less than a year (or any arbitrary amount of time) isn’t a problem; it’s when you’ve only spent 8 months at all of your jobs that a hiring manager will look askance at you for that.

      Would taking the opportunity at the other company give you what you need to take care of yourself and your kid? Then go for it. What challenges your current company will face after you leave are none of your concern.

    11. Rusty Shackelford*

      So take care of these people who you believe took care of you. Give them sufficient notice, tie up all the loose ends you can, document everything. But don’t force yourself to stay in an untenable situation.

    12. Spool of Lies*

      I was in a very similar situation two years ago. I felt so guilty about leaving (especially because I had only been there for 5 months) but I was so overworked and the job had changed significantly from what I signed up for.

      I have never once regretted leaving. Get outta there!

    13. Bend & Snap*

      run!

      however it was when you started, they’re not taking care of you now, and your well being comes first.

      It’s business. They’ll manage.

    14. Sara without an H*

      They didn’t hire you to “take care” of you. They hired you because they thought you would be an asset to their badly-run business. Repeat this until you believe it.

      So read all the AAM archives about job-searching and interviewing, and go find a job that works for you.

    15. QCI*

      “They helped me when I was in need” is rarely a reason to stay somewhere you aren’t happy with, because that’s not why they hired you. They didn’t bring you in out of the goodness of their hearts or as a charity case.

    16. MissDisplaced*

      If the job is not the right fit leave.
      Life is too short. A one year stint won’t kill you.

    17. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Pursue this other opportunity–send your resume, interview, etc. If you get through all of that and you still think it’s a good fit, GO FOR IT. Don’t ever make the mistake of thinking that your current company will be in dire straits if you left. Yes, they will need to make adjustments, etc. But they WILL do it –because they’ll have to. It’s a normal part of business. It’s called Succession Planning. As for your resume, don’t stress. There are plenty of articles right here on AAM that talk about how to deal when you’ve left a job after less than a year.

    18. Batgirl*

      If it helps with the guilt, leaving is probably the best thing you can do for them. The best way to redress a dysfunctional system from the bottom is to stop propping it up. When their best staff, the sensible self-care people, all leave that’s the only time the top tiers really start to make changes. Or it folds; which is best for everyone if it’s a sooner rather than later situation.
      That aside GET OUT. You’re not serving your career well, or yourself, or your home life. The one year thing, one time, does not a pattern make, so go forth and prosper elsewhere… Good luck!

  20. Mimmy*

    Well, my leap of faith in posting to a professional listserv last week has potentially paid off – I have an opportunity to do an internship! I am spending a few hours at the office of a university disability services office on Tuesday. You guys, I am so nervous!! Not about whether I’ll be able to do it but whether this is too good to be true. The woman invited me and she is absolutely fine with the fact that I’m not a current student anywhere (though I may enroll in a program to start in the spring).

    I also met with another disability services provider the other day (I posted about that in last week’s Open Thread), but that didn’t go nearly as well. It was my fault though. I wrote him later that day and apologized. He works for the same university but a different unit from where I’m going Tuesday. I am paranoid, however, because I mentioned Tuesday’s meeting, so I’m hoping he doesn’t try to thwart this opportunity.

    Please send up positive vibes that all goes well next week!!!

      1. Mimmy*

        Will do!

        Forgot to mention that is actually an unpaid internship and is only 10-15 hours a week, so I would still have my current part-time job. However, if this pans out, it would provide valuable experience and possible future opportunities.

    2. Kiwiii*

      Congrats on the opportunity!! I hope it goes really well.

      As for a lead if it doesn’t (and I apologize if you’ve ruled this out already): I found my way into social services work through a temp agency. Disability-related services might not necessarily use 50%-100% contract and/or LTE staff, but it’s pretty likely that someone in whatever your state’s health services/welfare services departments do and hiring for those positions is a lot less rigorous than other state work. Looking directly on your (and neighboring) county’s websites might also find some related (or general proximity) clerical work that can get you moving in the right direction.

  21. MissBliss*

    When I was offered my job, they couldn’t meet my salary request due to internal policies but I was told that I would receive a salary increase upon completion of my graduate degree (I was halfway through when I was hired). Come to find out later, the form to get pre-approval for that salary increase was supposed to be filled out *at time of hire*– but I wouldn’t know that, since I wasn’t an employee, and my department is tiny, so they hadn’t experienced this before.

    Word just came back from HR that it will not be a problem (even though I’ve been here a while) and my pre-approval has been submitted, though the policy has changed and it is no longer a salary increase but a flat sum. I’m just happy I know the answer now!

      1. Justme, The OG*

        Yes. I got a lump sum payout of a percentage of my salary when I got my Masters. It is possible to have a percentage increase depending on your job classification (but my job classification pays more and has better benefits).

      2. MissBliss*

        Neither I nor my supervisor currently know if it will be a one time payment, or the flat amount added to my annual salary. But the organization recently changed from having percentage increases to having flat dollar amount increases (it’s an equity thing), so I wouldn’t rule out having the few thousand dollars just added to my current annual salary.

        1. MissBliss*

          Well I just confirmed and it is an increase on my base salary, which is very exciting! It comes out to about twice what it would have been had it been the percentage increase.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Congrats! And kudos to your HR department for acting in good faith and giving you the increase even though your manager didn’t put in the correct documentation at the right time. I’ve known places that would have told you you were just out of luck.

  22. blaise zamboni*

    Happy Friday to all! When I got to work today, the first thing I saw was an email about bees. There are literally bees in the office. I hope that’s not a sign.

    Also, this is officially the end of my 4th week in my new job, and I was able to find a room that a newer person needed. So I guess I’m not new anymore! I’m loving my team and my company. It’s such a huge change from my last job, which was full of metaphorical bees. I know a lot of people here have started new jobs recently – sending out good vibes that you’re all enjoying them too.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Yes but are they evil bees? Usually you can tell by the blackish purple smoke coming off them, at least if video games are to be believed.

      1. blaise zamboni*

        Ha! I didn’t see them so I’m not sure, but I knew they were nearby because I couldn’t fast-travel from that part of the building…huge inconvenience.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Recently we had ants in our office…and tracked them back to an anthill *IN THE CARPET*…so I am convinced the He’ll mouth is on the move. And I am hoping it has now spawned baby hellmouthlets.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It 100% has. Our corporate overlords will be here next week, and our portion of the evil energy is probably going to go up.

      4. Llama Face!*

        Well we recently had someone say “The devil is coming!” to our front counter staff (as what I assume was their version of goodbye). So a hellmouthlet may have migrated north…

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Thank you, blaise zambonie. I’m ending my 11th week with my new company, and I do love it – working from home full-time is definitely living up to the dream I always had of it in my head. I’m so much more relaxed, and some of the health issues I had when I was working outside of the home have now either disappeared completely or have significantly lessened. I’m glad you’re also loving your new job :) It’s a nice feeling.

      1. blaise zamboni*

        That’s awesome! WFH is a dream of mine too, it’s nice to hear it lives up to the hype. I feel the same way, my health issues are markedly improved and I have so much more energy to pursue my hobbies outside of work because I’m not stressed and miserable. I’m really glad you’re having such good results! Congratulations and keep it up :)

  23. SNS*

    What do you think about blocking/soft blocking your boss on social media? (Hopefully my vagueness doesn’t make this hard to understand)

    Basically there’s been some unnecessary drama in my office around social media. A coworker said something vague about another coworker, someone shared it during a work happy hour and it blew up. I foolishly got myself caught in the middle by replying to the coworker’s tweet in sympathy and revealing more about the situation making it a little more obvious who it was about.

    Both tweets have been deleted and I’m hoping it will all blow over soon, but in the meantime, I blocked the coworkers who were discussing and sharing the post. But during the drama, my one boss followed me, I assume because she heard what was going on. I have a “professional” account associated with my company, but the account my offending tweet was on has no affiliation with my company and doesn’t even have my last name on it. I ended up “soft blocking” my boss (blocking, then blocking her so she was no longer following me), but I’m feeling guilty. I’m not trying to hide anything, and I’m really not tweeting anything I wouldn’t be comfortable with my boss seeing, I just want to keep my account separate from work and not have to worry about monitoring what I say on it. Is that a mistake?

    1. Four lights*

      I don’t problem with this. I think it’s always a good idea to block bosses and sometimes coworkers from social media just to keep work and personal life separate.

    2. MPA*

      I think it’s a good idea. I ended up regretting allowing coworkers to follow me on social media (My IG is protected, and my Twitter was not, but didn’t have my real name associated with it but I felt close to a coworker and told them and then really ended up regretting it later.

      I just think you never know what will happen and it’s a good idea to keep those things as separate as possible.

    3. Turtlewings*

      On the contrary, I think the mistake would be intertwining your personal and professional lives on social media! Discreetly keeping your boss the heck off your twitter/facebook/etc. is the best possible thing to do. (It’s always smart not to trash your job on social media regardless, though.)

    5. KR*

      I preemptively blocked my grandboss on Facebook after FB pulled my info from LinkedIn and suggested him as a friend to me (?!). Not a bad thing at all. We also had a work video a coworker uploaded to his personal YouTube. I preemptively blocked him too so he wouldn’t stumble upon my YT acct. Nothing to hide but LinkedIn is for my professional social media contact and nothing else. I have TWO extremely close coworkers I am friends with on Snapchat because I trust them and that’s it. Not wierd. Block them all on personal.

    6. Asta*

      Is your account public or locked?

      If it’s public they can log out and still read it, just FYI.

      1. SNS*

        yeah it’s public, but I’m fairly positive she isn’t going to be taking the time to go looking for my account again, vs. it showing up on her feed from following me

        1. LSC*

          I think it’s fine (and even advisable) to block her, but if I were in your shoes, I would also make the personal account private. Maybe she’d never notice or try to look it up while logged out of twitter, but it’s still a possibility.

    7. Tea Earl Grey. Hot.*

      I have work people I only follow on LinkedIn, but even then it’s annoying and limiting (I’d SO love to go off on a rant about how job sites don’t let you properly filter regions, but they don’t know I’m in the market). Any other social media I’d die inside if anyone from work tried to follow me. Block block block!!

    8. Bortus*

      I use a pseudonym on social media for a reason. :) My friends know how/where to find me. The rest? eh.

      If a coirker finds me and friend requests, I usually just ignore. I dont tweet or snap so that makes it easier. On IG, its strictly for my sidehustle so I dont really care if anyone follows me there.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Yep. Mine’s under the dog’s name. If you know me well enough to know Molly’s name, you can find me.

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      I block all higher-ups on social media– Facebook proactively, and elsewhere if I see them show up. I too have been burned by management seeing something I posted, so I don’t take any chances. I also block any coworker I don’t trust 100%.

    11. Close Bracket*

      the account my offending tweet was on has no affiliation with my company and doesn’t even have my last name on it.

      Remember the racist guy from earlier this week where the OP tracked him down even though his name wasn’t on his account? I’m not accusing you of racist tweets, just pointing out that twitter accounts can be found and people can be held accountable even if it’s not under their real name.

      So maybe your boss won’t go to the trouble of reading your feed while you are not logged in, but I think you should still make your account private.

    12. Mellow*

      I don’t understand why any boss would *want* to follow her employees on social media.

      I mean, good grief, how did social media become the end all, be all monolith to things? Bosses like that may as well be spying on your phone calls from – forgive this – inside the house!

      Seriously, though, I don’t have anything but a LinkedIn account, and even that is hidden from public view.

      Block all you want, I say.

  24. Justin*

    Updating my misplaced comment (since it was about school) from Saturday, but, I remain a little disappointed that many of my classmates repeatedly ask for extensions etc and spend our group text chain fretting about the syllabus because I expected a more propulsive professional learning community in my doctoral program. I know this makes me something of a humorless scold and I can come off that way (though I keep my frustration to myself), but, aside from emergencies, which happen to all, I feel like we should be able to hand our stuff in on time in regular classes (ie not original research). I wouldn’t care nearly as much except they’ve spoken on my behalf before to request extra time for everyone and I didn’t appreciate that.

    We’re mostly not expecting or planning to go into academia professionally, but still, I want to be pushed in my praxis or else it’s just reading and writing. I’m getting straight A’s yet I’m not working that hard (even in this past winter’s semester when I had a new puppy).

    BUT, out of the blue, I apparently have been nominated for a research fellowship. It’s not a ton of money (a couple grand), but one or several of my professors seems to have recognized my work thus far (nominators are secret, I’m told). I was getting to where I was going to lose motivation (I don’t care that much about grades, though nice they’re going well), but apparently being hypereager and doing things early (using my anxiety for a benefit, I guess) is something the program noticed. So, even though my job remains dull (and I’m trying to find a better one), I’m much more motivated going forward at school. So that’s nice.

    Unrelated, but my coworkers have been having a whispered conversation behind me for an hour and I hate it. But I will come off as humorless if I tell them to just speak out loud or move so youtube/pandora and headphones it is.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I hear you. I’ve been doing an online diploma course where we have to work on writing and research assignments in small groups (kill me now), and there’s always somebody in our cohort who has Reasons why they need a deadline extension. Ugh. We’re all post-undergrad adults, we all have jobs/families/lives, we know the assignment and deadline 10-20 days in advance — plan your life with an extra day or so to do your part in the assignment and turn in your damn work. So frustrating!

      1. Justin*

        I mean, like, you’re in the hospital, you lost your job, whatever whatever, things do happen. You plan ahead so that if things happen you’re still afloat.

        The thing that makes it worse is when they all asked for a group extension, it was right after spring break, during which they’d all been on vacation. Like, fine, you’re entitled to do that, but don’t say you don’t have time after that. It was on the syllabus 3 months earlier.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          What makes it worse for me is that we’ve had generally the same cohort for this course for the past year, and you know it’s always the same 2-3 people who suddenly need an extension just before the due date.

          But otherwise, yeah, totally, sh-t happens and we’re reasonable people.

          1. Justin*

            It is indeed the same 2-3 people. There are 2 of us who don’t, and a few in the middle who just accept the prevailing attitude because it makes things easier. Small sample sizes with huge swings I suppose.

        2. Pippa*

          from the perspective of a professor – thank you *waves weakly*
          Frankly, it’s exhausting to try to design a syllabus that will minimize the “I can’t take the scheduled exam because I ‘accidentally’ bought plane tickets to go home for break three days early” and “there was a big basketball game last night so I’m going to need an extension on this paper that was assigned three weeks ago.”
          Emergencies are a totally different issue, and I also don’t mind giving extensions to people who are working on their stuff and need a bit more time. But a lot of extension/makeup exam/etc requests are just shifting the scheduling consequences of the student’s social priorities onto the professor. Go away for break, go on a weekend bender, I don’t care, but I have three days to mark these papers, and if I have to do it the following week instead, you’ve derailed other work on my schedule. Sigh.

          2. ket*

            Sympathy from another prof :) I ended up instituting a policy that went like this: I’ll take things a day late, but if your (student’s) lateness is going to mess up my grading schedule, I will put the assignment into this special drawer in my desk and ignore it until the end of the semester. At the end of the semester, if you’re on the cusp between two grades, I’ll take your work into account — and if you’re solidly in the middle of a grade band, I will recycle it without reading it.

    2. Reba*

      Humorless scolds unite! Congrats on your nomination, and it’s great that your work is being noticed. Do you think it would be worth speaking to your cohort about not lumping you in to their requests in future — or did you do that already? Thinking that if you want references from profs in the future, good not to be associated with that.

      1. Justin*

        Well, I immediately emailed the professors in the class in question to say “they do not speak for me,” but considering they were asking for an extension at the last minute and I had handed in the assignment already, I think they knew.

        If they try to pull that mess again I’m going to say so though. We have a hardcore professor who is not going to play that game this fall, so I expect some whining.

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, I was also around some people in graduate school who liked to spin their hamster wheels of anxiety together whenever they were in the office or like, anywhere. No shenanigans about deadlines, but just ramping up each other’s stress levels with venting and fretting about Professor Hardass. I mostly chalked it up to their being younger than me and tuned that stuff out.

          1. Justin*

            It’s true, they’re younger, though only by a year or three, but “younger” isn’t always about literal age after all.

    3. lemon*

      I think asking for/getting extensions in grad school is kinda common and maybe even almost expected in some disciplines. I expressed my guilt over asking for extensions to my advisor once, and he looked at me like I was crazy and told me that he knew I was smart and could be trusted to manage my own workflow and priorities, so it was totally fine. I think that’s the attitude most of the time in grad school– you managed to make it into the program, so they know you’re qualified, so they trust you to do what you need to do [again, can vary by discipline].

      I think that actually prepares you better for professional life. I know some jobs have a lot of hard and fast deadlines, but in most of the jobs I’ve had, deadlines aren’t really black and white. Most of the time, I’m not explicitly given a due date for a project. I’m just given the relevant context and have to use my professional judgment to determine what parts need to be completed on what timelines.

      1. Justin*

        This is probably fair and I’m, like I said, weird and rigid. I suppose I see things differently from most and that makes me come off the way that I do, but I HATE it when it’s already been written down months ahead of time.

        1. ket*

          To me there are differences between “I’m doing original research and I’ve hit a heretofore unknown snag” and “I am writing a paper for a class and I’m blowing through the deadline”. The second is indeed poor planning, as most classes are not requiring deep original research for these types of assignments. The first is where I trust people to act as professionals etc.

    4. Spool of Lies*

      “…or else it’s just reading and writing.”

      Ouch — as someone who got a graduate degree but is financially unable to pursue academia, I still like to think it all counted for more than “just reading and writing.”

      1. Justin*

        I’m sorry, I phrased that poorly. I think academia is extremely valuable. I suspect you were challenged in your praxis while getting your degree, though; if it made you considerably better at what you do/did (and I have no reason to believe otherwise, even if you aren’t in academia), then it’s not just reading and writing. And my concern was that it might not do so (push my praxis forward, that is) without more of a challenge. Obviously reading and writing are valuable on their own, just that one doesn’t need a doctorate (or any graduate degree) to read studies and write about them.

        1. Justin*

          (Oh boy I wish I had an edit function. My now-poorly-expressed point is that degrees ought to really push us forward – as professionals, as people, as whatever the degree is – because otherwise we can do much of the work on our own.)

          1. Spool of Lies*

            Thanks for clarifying — I totally see what you mean now and I agree it’s important that graduate degrees should challenge and push us forward with our thinking and reading and writing. I was probably being overly sensitive anyway, so my apologies for that. Grad school really does a number on the psyche — as does giving up the academic dream — and I’m only starting to get over all of the weird after effects now.

            Congrats on the research fellowship! That’s awesome!

    5. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Ooh, group projects in school…at any grade level… Hated them. Once I got permission to do a group project (form your own groups of 4-5 people) with my best friend (just the two of us). So much better! I read a thread… somewhere…about group projects and college instructors who decide the group composition themselves. Instead of trying to balance out the groups (each group with one high-performer, one low-performer, and a few others), they put all the high performers together, etc. (I am still struggling with the word “performer” here but I can’t for the life of me think of the word I would prefer). Then the instructors could see how folks in the low-performing group stepped it up when there was no one that would carry the load for them.

      1. Justin*

        I hate the word too (and what is “high” etc etc) but I also don’t know what else to use, so I get your point.

        I wonder about that, too. We had a group project this summer, too, and it was very open-ended, which mostly meant no one responded to my emails so I just did my own part. On the other hand, if it’s too micromanaged it’s overbearing. That balance is really tricky.

      2. buttrue???*

        Daughter is in graduate school. Had the same guy in group projects in a class in each semester. Doesn’t do the work, doesn’t seem to even know the obvious things (like the nickname for his college alma mater) Those outside of her groups have promised to take him so she doesn’t have to work with him again this coming year.

      3. Alexandra Lynch*

        I don’t know why they balance the groups like that, but every single group project I have ever had to deal with in my life they have put me with two to three mouthbreathing empty-heads. What I have learned to do is to do the entire project myself, or at least enough that it’s clear that I did my part, and the other people’s lack of ability and motivation is clearly on them.

    6. Birch*

      Congrats on the fellowship!

      Couple of things that might help you reframe your thinking here, because you seem a bit caught up in worrying about other people and it seems to be negatively impacting you.

      1. How far along in your program are you? Apologies if it’s not accurate, but this sounds a bit like the program has started slower than you expected. You say you’re not planning to go into academia professionally, which I think lowers some of the stakes for you and might contribute to the lack of competitiveness that you observe. You might want to remind yourself what you want to get out of it and try to focus on that. This also works the other way around, for people who feel insecure about others’ accomplishments.

      2. As far as asking for extensions and workload, I think you’re being a little judgmental. I can totally understand your frustration when you feel like you’re meeting expectations and there are no consequences for those who don’t. But no one is starting from the same point–yes, we all have our life stuff, but you can’t assume that everyone else also feels the same way you do about the work–that they’re also not working that hard, etc. From the instructor’s side, I can tell you that your professors know who is applying themselves to the work, so you could try to trust them. Clearly your work is getting recognized! In the meantime, give yourself the gift of not worrying about other people. They all have their own goals which may be different than yours.

      3. You can (and should) ask your classmates not to speak on your behalf! I think approaching them first might come across as friendlier than emailing the professor, though.

      1. Justin*

        1. Yes, my therapist and parents told me the same thing, so I’m mostly just venting here. I fully agree with you! I need to Just Not Care about how they approach things. Frankly I want to close our text chain thread but it’s right there on my phone. It’s muted but I can’t delete it because I started it.
        2. The recognition this week has helped me reframe the whole thing. It’s true that I am a bit judgmental, and it was entirely because I got mad after they spoke for me. It was just a little annoying before (because I expected our text chain to be about something other than assignment anxiety, and that’s probably my own false assumption).
        3. It was absolutely unfriendly to email the professor, but many years of being ostracized socially (and you’re probably seeing why…) makes me a bit wary of being direct about my needs so I just tend to be annoyed and hope people still like me. It doesn’t work though! :)

    7. Oh So Anon*

      Congrats on the research fellowship!

      My grad school situation was somewhat similar to yours and one of the things that helped was getting closer to the people who were more interested in developing a community of practice. Our cohort’s (we started out with 20) big group WhatsApp was dominated by a lot of fretting as well (so much complaining about APA) and to be honest, the most dominant voices were people who found adjusting to graduate-level academic work difficult. In the spirit of collegiality, there’s no way to talk about how you find this stuff easy without alienating colleagues who don’t find grad school to be a cakewalk, so of course the group discussions will cater to giving them support.

      I suspect that it’s particularly true of professional programs that it’s far more frowned upon to openly be a “star student”. This cuts down on nasty competition, sure, but it also makes it more challenging for the people who are well-positioned to get more out of the program to find each other. Group work was a really good way of finding like-minded colleagues, as was paying attention to who was active on professional social media. That said, you need to approach all of this with a lack of judgement towards your colleagues.

      Also, what’s the deal with your cohort asking for extensions as a group? Maybe it’s a departmental culture thing, but in my program, it’s something people handled discreetly and individually with professors. I’m pretty sure that everyone in my program, regardless of academic performance, asked for an assignment due date extension at some point, but it wasn’t something that was openly discussed. This benefits everyone – life happens, as does poor time management, and no one needs to deal with their colleagues’ judgement over that.
      Your program chair could really help improve your program’s vibe by making extension request procedures discreet.

  25. Mbarr*

    Suggestions for resources on the fundamentals of how to create a software test plan? (Like, “Software Testing for dummies” stuff.)

    I’ve checked Lynda/LinkedIn courses, but most of them are about QA testing, software for testing, testing kanban boards, etc. We’re developing a new suite of products that need comprehensive testing, and I’m new to working with software developers and have no background in software development.

    1. ArtK*

      Wow! That’s a broad enough subject to cover days of posts! First off, you need to hire someone with serious experience. Testing is critical and you need an expert. I’m not sure why you’re dismissing “QA testing” in your comment, though. What kind of testing are you thinking of?

      Here’s the absolute bottom line about testing: Bugs are cheaper the earlier you find them. The more testing you delay to the end, the more expensive fixing things will be. Bring users/customers/stakeholders into the process as early as you can to test and give feedback. For me, the most frightening words I can hear are “… now that I see it in action …”

      What kind of development process are you doing? Waterfall? Scrum? Those can make a big difference in when testing is done. Will you be adopting any Agile practices. Test Driven Development is a great way to make sure stuff is tested early. Pair Programming can help a lot too.

      1. Mbarr*

        Thanks! Everyone else on the team is strong, including the team lead – it’s just me who’s trying to swim in the deep end of the pool. (I’m a combo Product Owner, Analyst, PM, whatever else they want.)

        The TL mentioned we’ll need a testing plan. I don’t think he expects me to build it on my own, I’m just trying to learn what I can before we begin, so that I can actually contribute. We’re doing Scrum and Agile, and our customers are all internal. I’ve never participated in testing, nor been involved, nothing. Nada. Zilch.

        Your comments are already super helpful. :)

        1. ArtK*

          I would suggest that you take some Scrum training. Lots of companies attempt it, but end up doing what we call Scrumbut. “We do Scrum but…”. The Scrum Alliance is one organization that does scrum training. Since you’re acting as the product owner, you absolutely should have CSPO training. There’s a lot of responsibility there. (As an aside, the PO shouldn’t be the one developing the testing plan — in a true Scrum team, the team should be putting that together.)

          One book I like is “Learning Agile: Understanding Scrum, XP, Lean, and Kanban” by Stellman and Greene. Not specifically about testing, but it’s a good overview.

          1. Qwerty*

            I found “Scrum and XP from the Trenches” to be a quick read and really useful when I first encountered Agile. The writing style was easy to understand and the PDF of the book is online for free. It is presented as a “this what we tried” and explains what went well / didn’t go well for them, so that you can tailor Agile/scrum to best fit your team.

          2. Analysis Paralysis*

            Since you are using Scrum, another resource is scrum(dot)org. There’s a wealth of info there. I second ArtK’s recommendation about getting certified as a Product Owner. Scrum(dot)org calls their certification Professional Scrum Product Owner. Research the differences between scrum alliance & scrum(dot)org & decide which seems to align better with how your company is doing Scrum, or ask someone in your company which version of scrum you are more closely following.

            In terms of test plan: there is a difference between a Test Plan (TP) and Test Cases (TCs). TCs are specific tests. TP is overall, how are you going to go about executing all the TCs. TP is often written at two levels— a high-level ‘wrapper’ (Testing Approach/Strategy) & should define the scope of the testing, resources needed, timeline, etc. Then for each sprint, update the TP for how the User Stories (see below for more on User Stories) in said Sprint will be tested. This is hard to explain without examples, but your high level Approach/Strategy should cover things like test bed conditioning (such as, the need set up 150 customer accounts in test environment), resource planning, are test cycles needed & if so, how will those be managed & communicated. Test cycles are like, if you’re a bank testing credit card functionality & you need to test when condition abc exists & the monthly statement period ends, the system should do xyz to the customer account… you don’t want to wait a whole month to see what happens— so you cycle the system (force the system to do a “monthly” cycle) 3 times in a 5 day period. This allows testing of 3 month-ends in 5 days … but you have to plan out which TCs need to run in each cycle especially if there are dependencies (like, customer goes delinquent in cycle 1, becomes current in cycle 2 & goes delinquent again in cycle 3, therefore system should do blah blah blah).

            In terms of TCs, look at your User Stories — these should have Acceptance Criteria. Acceptance Criteria are “conditions that a software product must satisfy to be accepted by a user, customer or stakeholder.” Each Acceptance Criterion should be independently testable. If the Acceptance Criteria (AC) do not appear to tell you what to test, then they’re not written appropriately. To fix that, Google ‘Writing Acceptance Criteria” to dig deeper.

            Once you have an idea of what needs to be tested (TCs) in each sprint, then you can better figure out how you’re going to test (TP) for that Sprint.

            Testing is a HUGE topic, as well as an entire profession— I cannot possibly do it justice with my generalizations here. Do you have Testers (like real ones, not just users who have been tapped to do some testing)? If so, meet with them & get their input. If they haven’t written a Test Plan before, they’ve at least read & followed one. They can help you. Also, they’ll be thrilled that you asked for their input.

            Testing terminology to learn (Google ‘types of software testing’), which will make it easier to understand what your developers & testers are talking about:
            Black box testing
            White box testing
            Unit testing
            System testing
            QA testing
            Integration testing
            User acceptance testing
            Performance / load testing
            Smoke testing
            Interface testing
            Regression testing

            Good luck!

            1. Engineer Girl*

              And don’t forget to tie delivery’s into the risk plan. A late delivery of a product or test can create a chain reaction.

              I once was screamed at for not finishing testing when the software hadn’t even been released to me yet. The developer couldn’t have hidden that if the delivery had been tracked by the risk system.

        2. cat socks*

          Will you be working with end users of the software to do the testing? One part of testing will be to identify the scenarios you want to test. I just take a spreadsheet and start documenting each scenario.

          If you’re new to the systems/processes, the users may be able to provide feedback on what specific parts of they want to verify.

          I work in telecom, so a lot of our testing involves install, change and disconnect scenarios:

          Scenario 1 – Build circuit at Location A with bandwidth of 100MB
          Scenario 2 – Build circuit at Location Z with bandwidth of 1GB
          Scenario 3 – Take circuit from Scenario 1 and increase bandwidth to 10GB
          Scenario 4 – Disconnect circuit previously installed in Scenario 2

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      At a high level, there’s “black box” testing (essentially the tester can’t see the inner workings of the code) and “white box” testing (usually the tester is testing some smaller unit of functionality that isn’t accessible to outside users).

      Good white box testing starts with unit tests — these validate the smallest possible bits of code and can be re-run dozens of time during development to make sure internal functionality is self-consistent. Depending on the complexity of the feature or product, there might be a bunch of layers of these tests, each layer testing more and more code, tree-style. If you’re not a developer, you probably won’t be super involved in this kind of testing.

      A black box test plan is usually about coming up with the right set of use case scenarios (common, unusual, edge case) and either automating the testing of them or manually walking through them.

      So for what you’re describing, if you want to get a jump on thinking about a test plan, you can start by making a list of ways that users will interact with your product. I find it useful to start with the phrase, “most of the time, the user will …” and fill in that blank, then move on to “sometimes, the user might … ” and fill in that blank until you can’t think of any other scenarios. After that you can go with “once in a great while, a user COULD conceivably …” and really be creative. You would not BELIEVE the ways users find to interact with your product.

      IMO, your developers will do a reasonable job of testing the “most of the time” scenarios. They will catch some of the “sometimes” scenarios, and they will rarely have even thought to come up with the “once in a great while” scenarios. The great QA folks are the ones who do a really thorough job of coming up with the use cases AND THEN know where to draw the line and not expect every one of them to be perfect. There’s a point at which “fail gracefully” might be the standard if it’s an unlikely scenario.

      Good luck!

    3. Nicki Name*

      Software developer here. Welcome to the deep end! If your team is made of mostly reasonable people they should be happy to help. Don’t be afraid to ask about anything you don’t understand during meetings. (If you’re afraid of derailing the meeting, make a note and ask someone later.)

      A good place to start is with the list of things the software needs to do. For every “this needs to do X”, check that it does X. Not just if the user is behaving as expected, but if you put in deliberately wrong input, if you mash the keyboard randomly, if you try to go through the workflow in the wrong order, if you reload/reboot in the middle of things, if the network connection drops suddenly, etc. Developers tend to get very focused on use cases where the user does the obvious and sane (to us, anyway) thing, so unexpected conditions or input can be a very fruitful area for bugs.

      Another thing to do early is create a procedure for bringing problems that aren’t discovered in testing a particular specification to the developers. The random error message where you don’t know where it’s coming from, the thing where after having the software open for 5 hours it suddenly starts doing weird things, stuff like that. It can even be “this message makes no sense” or “it’s hard to find this button the way it’s laid out”.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        Yes! If there is any possible user error, someone will make that error sooner or later.
        We once found a malfunction that only occurred when you set the loan maturity earlier than the inception. “Oh, no one would do that! Just move along.” Guess what happened a week after converting all our historical data?

    4. Super Duper Anon*

      Not a resource recommendation, but think about adding people with roles outside of testing into your testing plan. I am a technical writer, and I call myself an unofficial tester. When I am working with a software product to document it, I find SO much stuff that needs to be fixed. Everything from UI text errors, software bugs, edge cases no one thought about, workflows that engineers thought made sense but didn’t to me, etc. It helps to have someone like me who is a level removed from the development work but still has to go painstakingly through the whole program to both understand how it works and to document all its features.

    5. Someone*

      This falls under the QA umbrella. There are a lot of QA jobs. Some are ‘Hey click on this and see what it does’, and others are ‘Write an entire testing framework that automatically tests our software to make sure it works’. (QA engineer/Software engineer in test) You probably want to hire someone with experience in the latter. It is a huge area.

      As a software developer myself, I can say that your engineers should be writing some tests:

      1. Unit tests – software developers should be writing units tests for their code when they develop new features. Unit tests cover small parts of code. Like, does this function perform addition correctly? If 1 + 1 = 3, then the function is broken. Unit tests should be executed automatically at certain times in your workflow, like when a developer checks in new code, ALL unit tests should execute (just one option – depends on the size of your project & team preferences). Code coverage and automated testing is important because some parts of your application that worked previously may break when seemingly unrelated new code is introduced. Unless you want to manually check over the entire app, or wait for a client to report a bug to you, you should have automated tests. It’s important for leadership and product to create a culture where developers are encouraged/required to write tests. Product needs to understand that writing tests adds significant time to how long it takes to complete a feature, but pays off in the long run by catchings bugs early. Developers often skip writing tests when they feel time pressure to move on to the next feature.

      2. Acceptance tests – Where unit tests test small parts of code, acceptance tests test larger features. For example “I can fill out and submit this form and get the expected result”. These are more complicated and depending on your framework may be written by software engineers, a QA person, or may have to be done manually.

      Sorry I don’t know much more about the QA side of things, except that QA is very important and you need a QA person. A high level QA person would be able to help you develop and implement a plan. Or ask your team for help, I’m your your devs would want input on this.

      1. Kiki*

        Yes, I’d also look for resources that mention Test Driven Development (TDD). Even if you decide TDD isn’t the approach you want the team to take, there’s a lot of valuable information in resources that discuss that approach.

    6. Gumby*

      Different people use the term test plan in different ways.

      One way is a high level logistics-based plan like:
      Code will be pushed to this server on this schedule. These automated tests will be run. Then these testers will test it using tools/test cases/whatever. Bugs will be reported in such-and-such way. Whosiwatchi will assign the bugs to the correct owners. Fixes will be deployed on days x, y, and z. Developers who break the build will bring in cupcakes for the whole team. (Wait, no, we only *told* Fergus that was the required penalty, it wasn’t actually enshrined in any document anywhere nor was it a tradition before that point…)

      Another is down to the nitty gritty (what other people might call test cases):
      1. Go to screen A. Click button 2. Expected result = blah (screen should show x, database should indicate y, coffee ice-cream should be delivered to testing team)
      2. Go to screen A. Click button 3. Expected result = blahblah
      3. Log out. Go to screen A. No buttons should be there.
      These might be 5-10 pages worth of text descriptions for how to test one web page. They might make use of matrices to catch all possible use cases. They might take longer to write than to do the stupid testing. They may have been, at one point, the bane of my existence and yet! important documents to make sure everything gets tested thoroughly.

      So first is to figure what kind of test plan you need to be creating.

    7. Engineer Girl*

      You’re not going to like my answer. You really need one of your most experienced people to write it. You are not qualified. This requires an experienced technical person.

      I’ve worked on all parts of the life cycle. It’s been my experience that developers aren’t the best testers. Their brains are focused on getting things to work instead of how to break things. They don’t do so well at negative testing.

      I’ll tell you some pitfalls though.

      • Incomplete requirements and ICDs. You need something to test against
      • Incomplete test environments. The test equipment in the lab WILL be different than the equipment at the deployment site. The tools will be different requiring different tests. Simulators will be in some labs but not others. You need a senior person to suss our all the different users and sites
      • Incomplete stakeholder list. See above. Don’t forget integration, operations, etc.
      • failure to coordinate the ability to transfer data from lab to lab or tool to tool.
      • failure to dedicate enough storage space for test data
      • failure to allocate enough spares to save a few bucks. One board breaks and your entire test team is sitting on their butts for a week. $$$$ to save $ on an extra board.
      • failure to synchronize timing between simulators and other test equipment
      • Cheaping out on simulators. Especially real time simulators. Clueless people think simulators should be cheaper than the product. But think about it. The product is one bit, the simulator is the rest of the universe. The simulator will be more expensive. Good news, a good simulator will provide value for years, even decades.

      Types of testing: Unit, functional, hardware, non real time integration, real time integration, operations, post delivery analysis.

      The sooner you catch the bug the cheaper it is to fix it. Escapes can sink a product.

  26. MOAS*

    It’s been a rough few weeks and need some good vibes sent my way please. I’m not doing as well as I thought I was at work. Yesterday, I was a few minutes late to a meeting and my boss was super frustrated with me and we had a talk–not saying to minimize me, it was 1 of a list of things. We had an impromptu informal convo a month ago and it was in the same vein, That I am not focused. I don’t know why I am not focused.

    My boss’s boss is weird and is always saying things like I lack comprehension skills and can’t do the job even though it was ultimately their decision to promote me and my teams numbers are great. Grandboss is extremely tricky to deal with. In one meeting I nodded along and agreed with everything and they later said I wasn’t engaged. Yet at meetings when I do ask questions, someone rolls their eyes/makes a face and/or relays to others that I don’t know shit.

    One of the VPs of another department doesn’t like me. Word through grapevine is she thinks I don’t know anything. (I’ve barely ever spoken to her, when she joined early on I tried to say hello and would be friendly, but she would literally looked away and ignore me) so I stopped going out of my way. Our work has never intersected so she has never seen my work quality. I have a feeling that when I first started, I asked a lot of questions, and someone relayed it to her that I don’t know shit.

    What’s stopping me from leaving here? Comfort of the known. My personal life is shit right now tbh and I am not emotionally or mentally strong enough to make such a monumental (to me) change yet. There’s career stuff too but it’s mostly the mental part. (And the health insurance, and that I really love working with/for my boss. We’re on good terms and he’s helped me a lot. I hate when he gets upset bc I know it puts him in a bad position w grandboss.)

    Anyway, I’m not focused and he’s right. I have always had focus/concentration issues and I am desperate to take add or adhd medicine ritalin, anything, something to help focus. I’ve “suffered” from this, lack of focus, low energy, distracted easily, can’t concentrate etc. since high school, but figured I was an airhead or a dumbass, too weak to fix myself naturally.

    I’m seeing my dr for my anxiety but I am going to bring up all of this and hope I can get some help.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Good luck! It is hard to get work done when your brain is not cooperating. If your dr you’re seeing for anxiety is a general practitioner (GP), make sure you get a referral to a psychologist / psychiatrist for adhd assessment.

      I know some people who’ve gotten adhd diagnoses as adults, and it’s been a life-changer. Even before you get to that appt, some time this weekend on-line hunting for ‘adhd coping skills’ may help.

    2. canary*

      I rarely comment but I felt like I had to here. You said, ” I’ve “suffered” from this, lack of focus, low energy, distracted easily, can’t concentrate etc. since high school, but figured I was an airhead or a dumbass, too weak to fix myself naturally.” I know EXACTLY how you feel. Please talk to your doctor. I have struggled like this for *years* and have only recently been diagnosed with ADD. (I also have anxiety, the two often go hand-in-hand.) I’m still trying to figure out which medication works for me, but just knowing that it’s not all down to a personal failing/laziness has been a weight off my mind.

      I’m rooting for you!

      1. MOAS*

        YES ANXIETY. I have anxiety. I was taking Xanax for personal issues every so often but I ran out about a month or so ago. I was going to talk about this in more detail in tomorrow’s thread.

        1. Interplanet Janet*

          This was me, too, until I started the ADHD meds, and now I find I don’t need it anymore. My provider described it like this: Part of the ADHD brain deficit is the ability to filter out what you don’t need at any given moment in favor of what you need to focus on. That inability to filter can really easily result in you feeling bombarded by the outside world’s input. Turns out being bombarded all day every day can MAKE A PERSON ANXIOUS.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      +1 to talking to someone about ADHD. I have struggled with focus my whole life and I have always beat myself up for it. After my daughter got diagnosed, I started looking at my own stuff and realized that a lot of what got better for her when she started taking meds was the same stuff I’ve struggled with. I got a diagnosis and started on meds and ZOMG, so much better! ADHD folks struggle with focus, but it affects a lot of things. My daughter’s social skills improved, my chronic low-level anxiety is almost gone, and I’m even sleeping better.

      Best of luck! It’s really hard to know where brain chemistry ends and personal responsibility kicks in. I hope you can get some answers.

      1. MOAS*

        ” It’s really hard to know where brain chemistry ends and personal responsibility kicks in.”

        OMG THIS !!! Honestly I beat myself up for being so scatterbrained, forgetting random things, dropping (literally and figuratively). I read up on ADD/ADHD a while ago and they said one of the key symptoms was having trouble in grade school, which I didn’t (until 7th grade onwards) or acting out etc. I am a big proponent of personal responsibility, I don’t beat others up for it, but I beat myself up for it.

        1. LSC*

          Just so you know, those symptoms you mention (trouble in school from an early age and acting out) are a lot more in common in boys than girls. I don’t know your gender, but there have been studies in the past few years on how ADD/ADHD is very underdiagnosed in girls and women because of this (one of them was published in The Atlantic, “ADHD is different for women”).

          The inattention-related symptoms tend to be more prevalent in women – and this tracks with my experience as a woman who got her diagnosis in her 30s. I can’t say that medication has been completely life-changing, but it has helped, along with other organization/tracking mechanisms. So I definitely think looking into this with a mental health professional is a good idea. Good luck!

          1. MOAS*

            I’m a woman. What you mentioned is familiar to me. Inattention, scatterbrain etc. Different symptoms in women. etc

        2. Not So NewReader*

          That beating yourself up is adding to your load.
          I suggest work on changing your self-talk. Learn to talk nicer to you.
          My rule of thumb is “If it’s rude to say to a friend or family, then it’s rude to say it to myself.”

          When you say a nasty thing to you, stop, correct what you just said and then move forward.
          It can look like this:
          Initial thought: “Oh I am such a dip, look at this mistake I made. What an idiot I am.”
          Correction: “No, I am not a dip or an idiot. I actually DID find the mistake, LUCKY ME. And I KNOW how to fix this mistake, BONUS. I will fix it now.”

          Initial thought: “Damn. I forgot x. AGAIN. I can’t retain anything. I am not worth what they pay me.”
          Correction: “I forgot x but I will do it now. I will prove to them that I am worth what they pay me.”

          Buried in these corrections are the simple act of vowing to follow up in a responsible manner. See, it’s not the mistake that is a real problem most of the time. A boss gets most concern when the subordinate does not follow up on what they forgot or messed up. Those employees are the most concerning employees. Start telling yourself, “I caught this, I will take care of it now/today.”

          And also buried in these affirmations is forgiveness. Forgive you. Yes, it’s important. Until I started working I never realized how important. Forgiveness allows us to move forward. Beating ourselves up holds us stuck in a moment that has passed. We can’t unring a bell. We CAN, however, allow each moment to teach us something about what we need to be successful at our jobs. Decide to let problems teach you what you need to do your work.

    4. Helpful*

      One thing to consider: it’s much easier to get a job when you have a job. So you might want to dig deep and get something new before you’re fired. I am reading the writing on the wall and it’s possible you’re being slowly considered for being let go.

    5. working in software*

      Wow, there must be something in the water this month…I’m going to be bringing up my symptoms that I strongly suspect are ADHD to my psychiatrist early next week. Moved up the appointment with him a week or so because I’ve realized after getting a new job that requires a MASSIVE amount of focus and prioritizing and basically a lot of things that I’ve struggled with since I was a kid, well, I need to at least bring it up with a dr. Things like, I’m thinking keeping a pile of 5-10 books at the bottom of my bed when I was younger, all started and in different places, but most never finished because I’d get bored and want to jump to the next thing…probably not a “normal” brain function lol. I’m lucky that I’ve been able to manage until now because I’m bright and once I actually sit down to do something, it gets done quickly, but man, getting to the actually sitting down part is hard. There are so many other shiny things I can look at or do!!

      Solidarity and here’s to hoping we find some answers soon!

    6. Gidget*

      Sending you positive vibes. I hope everything gets worked out. Also, I have a coworker exactly like yours– I say hello and they ignore me, turn away. It is super frustrating and doesn’t create a positive environment for anyone.

    7. M*

      Good luck! Do you have any paid time off so you can take a break? What about talking to a therapist? I would also start looking in case you are out on a PIP or let go. Also maybe go to your Doctor and tell them about these symptoms and maybe they can see if there is something they can do for you whether it be medication or seeing a specialist.

      I have anxiety but not at work, with flying (and I used to fly all the time with a previous job and was fine). It started in the last year and now I need to travel more for work, so it is impacting my work. I went to my doctor and found out I had a hormone imbalance issue so hopefully that will help otherwise I will go on other medication. Take care of yourself. We are rooting for you!

    8. Alexandra Lynch*

      I didn’t get diagnosed with ADHD until my son who is just like me was diagnosed. In retrospect, of course, throughout my life the symptoms were quite obvious.

      Routines and lists help me a lot, and what also helped was knowing that it doesn’t matter what other people can do, I have to go with what I can do. Sure, other people can stuff their keys in their pockets randomly and set them down and still find them, but that’s something I can’t do. My keys are on a carabiner and the second they come out of the ignition/the door, they hook back onto my purse. My purse always goes in the same place at home or at my mother’s house when I visit. I do things in a certain order and that is the order I do them in, and if Boyfriend wants to talk to me he can wait til I’m done. I make up meal plans, and part of the night before routine (fill the coffee pot, fill the tea kettle, feed the cats, etc.) is to see what meat needs to go from freezer to fridge. It will be ready for me to cook when the alarm on my phone goes off.

      I found that medication (and my dose is small, but I am sensitive to meds) was the keystone that made all the techniques for managing this work. I am CALM inside when it kicks in. I can think one thought all the way through without noise. I can carry two thoughts in my head at a time. I’m more patient, I have less stress. I had to sit down and grieve the life I could have had if the ADHD had been treated when I was young, though.

  27. Bubbleon*

    If you’ve got any spare happy thoughts this week could you just send a few my way? I’m desperately looking to get out of my current job at what seems to be a sinking ship and found one recently that I REALLY REALLY REALLY want and honestly think I’m an amazing fit for. It’s an industry change and a super long shot, so I could use all the extra good wishes I can get.

    3. The Blue Marble*

      Good luck! Even if you don’t get this one, Don’t Give Up! Another opportunity will be around the corner and ultimately everything will work out in the best way for you.

    4. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

      Hang in there!! I’m in the same boat – my formerly AMAZING job went to absolute shit thanks to a regime change (bunch of clueless out-of-town management thinks 1/8 of the staff can do 5x the work). So I’ve been looking and looking. I keep getting told I’m “impressive” but it’s been close to a year and I’m still not out of there. Hoping better for you, Bubbleon!

    6. Mellow*

      I am thinking good thoughts and best wishes for you, Bubbleon! Let us know how it works out.

  28. HeightsHeifer*

    I started a new job about three weeks ago! It’s been a great transition and I really enjoy the work… but I’m managing a much larger team than I have before. I have about 15 folks working on the team, many of them with 15+ years of tenure here.

    In addition to being the first true manager they’ve had ever, I’m trying to navigate establishing real policies and procedures for the first time. Some of these changes have been well received and others I get a lot of pushback, mostly about how it will increase their workload (temporarily).

    What’s the best approach? I’ve tried explaining that this will help the team be more efficient in the long run, but I think I have some people that just believe in the mantra “This is how we’ve always done it.”

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I’d focus in on the bit where they have welcomed or tolerated some changes–the ones that get push back are the ones requiring extra work. Is the improved efficiency going to directly benefit them, or benefit other people? Just how much extra time is this taking, and for how long? If you want buy-in, the pay-off should be evident within a reasonable time-frame and scale.

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        The improved efficiency is going to help them! And I’m not expecting them to do more with less because I’m allocating resources around. They just deal with a lot of unexpected interruptions from our employee base (part of the job) and I think they feel that I’m going to judge them harshly on not meeting customer service metrics because they have to do some other changes. Which I’m not expecting. I think it’s just a matter of trusting me.

        1. Another JD*

          I think they feel that I’m going to judge them harshly on not meeting customer service metrics because they have to do some other changes. Which I’m not expecting. I think it’s just a matter of trusting me.

          Have you explicitly told them this?

          1. HeightsHeifer*

            Yes! I’ve had one-on-one meetings with everyone and laid out their goals and objectives, inclusive of the temporary extra duties. I think they may be jaded by past managers and I’m struggling to gain their trust.

    2. Kathenus*

      Having been in this situation, here are some things that helped me navigate these types if issues. First – pick your battles, especially related to timing. If you have 10 things that you know should be/must be transitioned to new processes, prioritize those that have hard external deadlines that you must do now and/or ones that have less pushback – i.e. low hanging fruit. Then as you build up trust with the team, it’s easier to tackle the thornier ones later. There are literally things that I wanted to change that were more discretional that I waited a couple of years for and ended up with a much better result than if I had pushed them through initially.

      Second, engage them in the conversation. Set the goal – for example ‘we need to have a written training checklist for x task to document approvals’, but then let them be a part of figuring out how to meet that goal. Having dealt with these as both a line employee and manager, it’s such an easy trap to fall into to try to promote both the goal and process when rolling it out (trying to be thorough, show a solution, etc.) that it’s easy for this to feel to the employees like they have no voice and that their ideas on how to most efficiently reach the goal aren’t included or respected. And you can never go wrong with being open and honest with your team – let them know that part of your job is to do these things, and get their feedback on ways to do it within the culture as much as possible.

      Third, I’m a firm believer that if there’s an increased workload – temporary or otherwise – that it’s management’s responsibility to either change expectations or add capacity. There is no ‘do more with less’ or ‘do more with the same’. The only way that doing more can be achieved, in my opinion, is to either reduce workload or deadlines during the transition, to add help, or to increase efficiencies if it is thought that the staff could be achieving more. I try to tell my team that if they ever feel that I’m giving more work without adjusting staffing or expectations, to let me know, because I need to be aware and fix that.

      Maybe some of these strategies will help in your situation – good luck!

      3. HeightsHeifer*

        I love this! Thank you.

        It is difficult sometimes picking those battles, that’s the one out of those three things you mentioned that I struggle with. Even though I know I’m not knowledgeable enough about a lot of the processes at new job, there are several glaring gaps that I feel need to get addressed. So I try to jump onto those. I think I need to re-evaluate and better prioritize some things on the plate.

        1. Kathenus*

          I get this feeling totally. I had to change one of my definitions of success here. There were things I thought were very high priority for certain reasons, but when looked at through the lens that one aspect of success was team buy-in, it helped evaluate the change options through that lens along with others. So the decision tree might look at staff buy-in, upper management requirements/deadlines, impact of the change, etc.

          It also took me a while to realize that although we also have had some glaring gaps in processes, they’ve been that way for years to decades and no one’s died yet (being a bit facetious here). So if there’s an immediate safety/welfare/compliance concern they may need to be fast-tracked, but if they just really (really) should be changed, I felt a little less pressure that it all had to be done NOW. I had to do a lot of mental re-framing in my current job due to coming into a team that viewed me initially with a lot of suspicion. It’s taken years, but the evolution versus revolution approach when possible (and transparency when it’s not) has done wonders to get here. It was so hard being patient though, I couldn’t see why people didn’t want to do some of these things when they (to me) seemed so obviously more efficient.

          But I tried to put myself in their shoes, and also think of times in my past when a new manager came in and changed a bunch of stuff. And I realized that it’s hard to not see those changes as saying you’ve been doing things wrong for years, so acknowledging the benefit of the changes was – in a way – saying that you’ve been failing in some way. That’s a bitter pill for all of us, but that perspective helped me pull back to try to get to where they came to some of the conclusions with me as to change being positive, versus it all being driven by me. And I had to be open to the fact that I might be (and sometimes was) wrong, and that there way was better in some cases.

          Keep working at it, just the fact you’re looking at how to make all this go smoother says a lot, I have no doubt you’ll find ways to make all of this a success in the long run.

      4. tea*

        Your 3rd objective is so on point. I appreciate your commitment to the well being of staff capacity. My last ‘relationship’ showed no compassion in this matter.

    3. A tester, not a developer*

      If you have timelines for these changes making things better, share that with the team. Knowing that Annoying Process is going to be revisited in 90 days (or six months) can help make the pain of the new process tolerable.
      And if you have no idea how long it’s going to take for the process to reduce their workload, it may be worth taking another look at it.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Trust them to know their jobs like they know how to breathe.
      Then ask them their ideas on streamlining and implementing consistencies.

      Do a take with one hand, give with the other hand type of thing. Use their ideas where it makes sense. Modify a good idea if need be in order to get something that is good for the group. So while you are setting rules, you are also listening for their ideas that will be effective in helping them with their jobs. Tap the collective genius of the group.

      Make sure they know WHY you are doing something. Explain, explain, explain. Explain until you are ready to fall over because you spend so much time explaining. This is an investment on your part. You will not have to keep explaining. You are showing them your management style, how you like to handle things. They will pick up speed.

      I have gone as far as telling subordinates, “When you have x type of problem, come tell me. That is my job to handle that type of problem.” I usually said this after finding out x has been going on for a while and no one could figure out what to do. Here what is important to know is that they may not even realize WHEN to come get you for something. There are times where managers need to jump in and handle things because the subordinate does not have the authority/resources/whatever to bring it to a resolve.

      Also go through and check to see if they have the supplies and equipment they need to do their jobs. If machines are not working correctly, get them fixed or try to get new or something newer but perhaps used. If this is not applicable, then ask them what they think would be good things to add to your department. Perhaps they want an additional printer or maybe the coffee pot in the break room is kaput- be prepared to hear anything.

      I found that by keeping one thought at the forefront of my thinking helped guide me through the day-to-day stuff. And that thought was: I am here to serve them. Service is a very broad term. Sometimes service can be explaining to someone that x is against the rules and if TPTB see that x then dismissal is certain. Sometimes service can be just knowing that the best you can do for someone is give them time off to deal with at-home stuff. Service means a lot of different things.

  29. Anon Camper*

    I’ve been at new job 3 months now in an HR/Finance role. HR Manager (who I do not report to) started one week after me. Our offices are side by side and the walls between are very thin. A few weeks ago I ended up overhearing a conversation bt her and the state unemployment office regarding a claim she had filed against her last employer. It turns out they laid her off after a merger, but she has hidden this fact from our new employer. I had decided not to say anything (she doesn’t know I heard), but now the state has sent our employer a questionnaire about her claim. I have answered it truthfully and sent back to the state office. My question is, what sort of obligation do I have to notify the HR Manager, her manager(COO), or my manager (CFO) about this?

    1. Crimeandwine*

      We’re you asked to by someone to complete the questionnaire about her claim? If so, then depending on who it was, it’s safe to assume that your employer is aware of the fact that she made a claim. If you took it upon yourself to complete the questionnaire, then you need to immediately inform your manager about what you’ve done, her claim against her last employer is not something she needed to disclose. You also don’t know what she has discussed with her manager, so you really should just forget what you’ve heard but let your manager know about the form if they weren’t already aware or directed you to complete it.

      1. Anon Camper*

        It is part of my role to to respond to claims inquiries, so I am the first and so far only one to see it come through. She only had a 3 week gap between jobs, and had been offered the job here before her last day at the old job. She is filed the claim after she’d been working here for an entire month… I know she doesn’t need to disclose the nature of her departure from her last employer, but it all just comes off so weird. Almost everyone I know has been laid off from a job in their lives, why would she be hiding it?

        1. ChachkisGalore*

          Is it possible that she wasn’t given any (or given very little) notice of the layoff? Basically it is it possible that she was working at company A, started searching for a new role, was offered role at company B (your company), and then was laid off. If so, there just might not have been an appropriate time to bring it, especially if a start date had already been agreed upon.

          I sort of had that happen once – I was miserable in my job, was out interviewing, then boss at miserable company asked me point blank if I was looking. I said yes (I was young and naive). Boss said ok, well today’s your last day then. A couple of days later I was offered a job at one of the company’s I interviewed with, but it came up when I blurted out that I’d be available to start sooner than two weeks.

          Personally – I’d probably disclose the claim inquiry to someone, but I would not mention what was overheard through the wall. You only heard half of the conversation and who knows what the full situation is.

          1. KayEss*

            Yeah, every time I’ve been laid off (which admittedly is not a huge number, but I’m young yet) it’s been a day-of, security-is-here-to-walk-you-out thing. I wasn’t surprised by it, because in all instances it was clear the company/department had been doing poorly, morale was low, and duties had been shifted away from me (leaving me bored, frustrated, and job-searching), but I didn’t know when it would happen until it happened.

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Three week gap between jobs = she’s entitled to unemployment for that time. She may need it. I don’t see anything suspicious about this.

          1. Anon Camper*

            Thats fair, and I am not disputing if she would be eligible. I was hoping for some input on if/what I should say about it to my manager, since a questionnaire came to us and this would probably come as a surpriise to them.

            1. Liane*

              Handle it the way your employer requires you to handle every other UI questionaire. In other words, if the procedure is that you inform your boss of every UI claim form you fill out and who it was for–you tell the boss. If telling the boss isn’t part of the company UI Forms SOP–you don’t.

        3. Overeducated*

          If she was offered the job at your employer before actually leaving her old job, I don’t see why it would be relevant to disclose it. That employment technically ended AFTER she received the offer, so the only reason for her to bring it up would be to say “hey just FYI, in case you want to revoke your job offer or something, I just got laid off” – and I just don’t see why she’d do that.

        4. JeanB in NC*

          Why are you even worrying about this? It doesn’t affect you, it doesn’t affect her job – what’s the big deal? Why would you even want to talk to any managers about this?

    2. WellRed*

      If she has a role that may require sensitive conversations, I think you should give her a heads up about the sound issue, separate from all this.

    3. Double A*

      I’m really confused by this. 1) How did you know she didn’t disclose it to someone during the hiring process and 2) why is it at all relevant to your current company? It’s not like she hid being fired for embezzling or something. Lay offs are not something that reflects poorly on someone. It sounds like she’s entitled to unemployment for those three weeks, so you should fill out whatever’s relevant for you to fill out and alert anyone who protocol tells you should be in the loop.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto, I am confused here.
        I don’t get why not mentioning a lay off to a new employer is a big deal.
        In my younger years I did plenty of seasonal work to supplement my income. I got laid off OFTEN because of seasons.
        I did not feel the need to tell every employer about that.

        Plus, maybe she really liked that job and it’s hard to talk about being separated from the place the way she was pushed out. I had one job like that, it was the job of my life. I will never have a job that like that again where I cared so much about the job. I did. not. talk. about. this with ANYONE about that job. It was too painful. Eventually I recognized my mistake and I vowed not to become so attached to a job again. That attachment worked against me, not for me.

  30. Amber Rose*

    Maybe next Friday I’ll write this from jail, since if my coworker keeps singing under her breath I’m going to strangle her with a phone cord.

    I can’t say anything to her. I had to write her up this week for failure to follow rules I had repeatedly warned her about, but she acted all shocked like she’d never heard such a thing and now she’s pissy at me and also doing the malicious rule following thing, where she does exactly as told in the most inconvenient way possible.

    I got blessings from my boss to hold a meeting making the rules clear to everyone (they needed to be revised for clarity anyway, clearly) and then after that hopefully I’ll have more standing to shut this down, but I know with the singing thing, if I say anything it will result in more singing.

    1. Invisible Fish*

      Whatever she’s singing, join in, also under your breath. When/if she changes songs, you can stay the same or change. If called on it, you smile brightly and reply, “Oh, gosh! I was singing, wasn’t I? I must have heard _____ somewhere today, and now it’s stuck in my head.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        But her singing is so atrocious I have no idea what song it’s supposed to be. It’s like listening to mangled, off tune Enya, just high pitched nonsense.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          And? I’m sure you can do your own imitation of a drowning cat singing Orinoco Flow, no?

      3. EinJungerLudendorff*

        As amusing as that would be, it’s probably a bad idea to get into a passive-aggression competition with your underperforming employee.

        Maybe you can try the usual solutions (headphones etc)?

  31. Falling Diphthong*

    I’m watching Fargo Season 2, based on a true series of murders from 1979, and it is a fascinating embodiment of the AAM principle “Ain’t no crazy like small, family-run business crazy.” So much of the story is driven by the inherent problems in having your local crime syndicate be a small family-run shop, where all the reasons they would fire a normal employee (e.g. picking a fight with heavily armed opponents) get waved off because this psychopathic employee happens to be a relative.

  32. SophieChotek*

    Job Applicant – Reply to Rejection Email?
    In this day of so often not hearing once an application is submitted, would you/should you respond to an email “thanks for applying, but we’re going with someone else” type?
    I would not be asking for feedback or pushing back, more just thanking them for taking the time to tell me.
    Or just leave it go and move on?
    Thoughts?

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Eh, I’m a thanker, because I like to close the loop. In this case, part of me also wants to encourage employers to do this and not leave applicants hanging, so I’d be inclined to say something like, “Thank you for letting me know.”

      1. The New Wanderer*

        For a rejection after just an application? No.

        For a rejection after an interview? Yes, I usually respond with “Thanks for letting me know, best of luck.”
        (These have typically been written by the person I interviewed with or mainly communicated with rather than a form letter from a group mail address. For a generic rejection, no response needed.)

        For a rejection after an interview where I was one of the final candidates and/or got feedback that they really wish they could hire me too? I will add something like “Please do keep me in mind for future opportunities where I might be a good fit.”

    4. irene adler*

      Sometimes it can be worth it to say something like “Please keep me in mind should you have a future opening for [this] position.” And also indicate how you would very much like to work there someday.

    5. DAMitsDevon*

      If it was the kind of rejection letter that doesn’t seem like a form letter and the person says something along the line that indicates they want to keep you in mind for future openings and you’d want to work there (but making it seem personal to you, not just “we’ll keep your resume on file for the next year”), I’d say maybe. If it’s obviously a form letter, you can just leave it.

    6. Interplanet Janet*

      I do, because I want them to get positive feedback for actually responding, which I do appreciate, and I know is becoming increasingly rare. I send something like the following:

      “Thanks so much for letting me know.

      Not for nothing, but I really appreciate that you take the time. It’s so much nicer to receive a response, even if it’s a rejection, than to wonder if my resume somehow went straight to the bitbucket without even passing Go!”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I respond because I want to encourage that behavior of letting people know where they stand.
        It’s not an easy thing to send to someone (well, some people are harder to say no to than others) and I do appreciate the extra effort on their part.

    7. (Former) HR Expat*

      A lot of these emails are automated and sent from an Applicant Tracking System (ATS). Replying with a thank you is a nice thought, but it likely won’t go anywhere if it’s and ATS auto email.

    8. SC*

      When I was job searching a couple of years ago, I interviewed twice with a company and was ultimately rejected because they hired a candidate with specific experience. One of the owners, who I had interviewed with, wrote me a nice, non-form rejection email (well, as nice as possible under the circumstances). I replied with something along the lines of “Thanks for letting me know. Good luck.”

      I’m glad I did. I do niche work in a small market. It turns out that I work with this company sometimes and see them and their employees around a lot. I’m happy with my current job, but I may want to work for them one day. I respect them for being polite and taking the time to send a rejection email, and I’m glad I closed the loop in a polite way.

    9. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t see any drawbacks and there’s a miniscule chance it could help in the future, so may as well say “thank you.”

  34. Dr Useless*

    Thanks to the people who gave me advice and encouragement last week. Unfortunately I did get that rejection after the second interview in the end. I’ve revised my CV and sent out a few more applications in the last week. This comment isn’t really to ask for advice, it’s really mostly to rant.

    I finally gave in and signed up at the unemployment office. I was told “I don’t know what to do with you”, “ok, but what does one do with a degree in [X]” and we had the lovely exchange: “ok but did you work the last two years” – “of course, I was doing my phd” “ok but did you work” “yes?? as I said, I did my phd, I was paid during that time, I didn’t just do it for fun, I was employed by the university”

    So frustrating.
    I hate this.
    The amount of paperwork and bureaucracy is appalling, I really can’t believe people object to the idea of a basic income, it would certainly be more cost efficient than the current (separate) systems that deal with unemployment, benefits and disability.

    1. new kid*

      To be fair, I think most people outside of academia would not understand that getting a phd equates to a paid position. Academia tends to be it’s own little world. (but + 1,000 on overhauling the unemployment systems currently in place, good lord)

      Sending all the positive vibes your way on the job hunt – the right position is en route!!

      2. Deanna Troi*

        I agree. I’m currently working on a PhD and I am not employed by nor am I employed by the university. I would think it was weird if someone assumed I was. Some of the people in my program are teaching freshman level classes, but at least half are not working.

          1. Dr Useless*

            Fair, but if you ask “did you work during the last two years” and they answer “yes, I was doing my phd” you wouldn’t presume they *hadn’t* been employed and repeat the same question unchanged, right?

            1. Deanna Troi*

              Yes, you’re right. I would have responded by asking what kind of work they were doing – teaching, paid non-PhD research, lab work, etc. I think I was put off by the “of course, I was doing my PhD,” as though everyone should automatically know that if you’re working on you’re PhD, that means you have paid employment. That’s simply not true – many people at my university are only doing their PhD research and not working otherwise. I’m at one of the three largest state universities in the country, with many thousands of graduate students.

    2. Invisible Fish*

      Don’t feel bad (or too bad, I guess) – when I went in to apply for unemployment while working on my masters degree in English (focused on content Irish women’s literature, thank you), I was told about positions in day care establishments … I mean, all you can do with an English degree is teach, right? And working with toddlers is like teaching, right? See, perfect fit! :/

      1. Dr Useless*

        Hahaha, the same thing happened to me, the person entered “linguist” into the job database and it just listed teaching jobs, from language teachers to school teachers and daycare. My degree is in historical linguistics and unsurprisingly I’m not looking to work in my field.

        1. Deanna Troi*

          I took some courses in historical linguistics when I got my master’s degree in anthropology. So interesting! I hope you eventually find a job in that field! Or at least a job that you find to be fulfilling.

    3. Gidget*

      As I just found out after being in grad school for many years… if you are in a training program (Masters/PhD) and are a full time student any of the work you did does not count towards Social Security because it is considered part of your training (even though you are a University Employee)– this can unfortunately mean it doesn’t count as “real” work when eligibility forms come into play. I hope that doesn’t end up being the case. Good luck.

      1. Dr Useless*

        Yikes, no, thankfully I was a regular employee from a legal point of view. It would have been different if I had had a stipend, those work differently, but I had a grant, which paid a (low) salary. It’s infuriating how higher education can screw you over, my husband is from a different country than the one we live in now and his time as a post doc did not count towards his time for applying for citizenship, because he was still considered to be “in training”.

    4. KayEss*

      Oooh, unemployment benefits and higher ed are awful. Every time I’ve had to apply, it’s gotten flagged for review because I worked as staff at a couple universities… and it’ll presumably keep happening if I ever have to apply again (hopefully not), at least until those jobs fade away into irrelevance in my work history.

      I’m pretty sure it’s to keep adjuncts from applying for benefits they “aren’t eligible for” during semesters they aren’t teaching (i.e. are unemployed), which is a WHOLE OTHER SET OF PROBLEMS, holy shit academia is awful.

      1. Dr Useless*

        Academia is the worst, which is why I’m trying to jump ship now. People interviewing me for jobs keep asking me why I don’t want to continue in my current career and it takes so much restraint to not just start crying and laughing simultaneously or say “because I value what’s left of my mental health”.
        I had one interview recently where both interviewers had PhDs as well and I could at least be fairly straightforward and say “I don’t think that’s a realistic choice, there’s no long term perspective in academia” and they laughed and said “that’s the right answer, yes”. (Of course then they went on to mention the internship I was interviewing for pays about half as much as I’d need to cover my expenses, so turns out that’s not a realistic choice either).

  35. Friday*

    High performers: in a job where you’re no longer as invested and are looking for the right opportunity to leave (and it’s taking time because you’re being very careful and selective about where you apply next), do you continue to try to be a high performer until the very end or do you give in to doing the minimum? Struggling with this right now. Due to a toxic workplace, I just try to keep my head down, but there’s still that guilt – that I should still be trying to do my best until the very end.

    Curious to hear about people’s experiences.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      I’ve never been able to turn off the high performer switch when leaving a job. If for no other reason than that I don’t want to run the risk of burning bridges. I’m not going to say it’s always worked out in my favor – nobody ever really seemed to appreciate the level of work I put in to the bitter end – but I can’t shut it off. The same guilt you’re experiencing, I think.

      1. Minocho*

        I once was leaving a job with a really toxic management team. But there was a big project, and I thought I could get it done before my time was up. As there were no other software developers at the company (I did all the things! gah!), it either needed to be completed or not started until my replacement arrived. I put in a few extra hours during my last two weeks, nothing really overboard but a little extra effort. The manager of the team whose project I completed before leaving gave me a gift card for a local restaurant change as a “Thank you” for getting it done. That little gift card meant a TON to me, simply because it meant my effort had been noticed. I would have done it anyway, because it made me feel good about myself. But if it would have required 60 hour weeks or some other huge sacrifice, I probably wouldn’t have done it.

        If you’re done with it all where you’re, and you need the energy for what comes next, it’s not wrong to step back. But if it makes you guilty and miserable, try to find the right balance, because that’s not cool either.

    2. Ali G*

      Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. In the end I gave up. Do what is best for you. I mean, don’t sabotage your reputation or anything, but don’t go out of your way.
      Side note: I still remember when I was negotiating my offer when I was leaving my first job for my last one. I knew I was going to be gone in a matter of weeks. The CEO of that job (who was a big part of why I was leaving), tried to get me to start a new project. I deflected with an excuse that I think the Board would want to weigh in before I got too far, so why don’t I just outline the project and present to them at the next Board meeting? CEO thought that was a great idea.
      The Board meeting was 2 weeks after my last day. I never did the outline. Surprisingly now I have a great professional relationship with that CEO (I’m in a niche non-profit field).

    3. Agent J*

      I’ve been there. I think the key is to find the balance between going above and beyond and doing the bare minimum to keep things running. That way, you cut back on some of the energy you’ve been dedicating to being a high performer but you’re still giving a quality of work that meets the needs of the company. Sometimes good enough is good enough, especially when you’re good enough as a high performer is likely more than enough.

    4. Shuri*

      I’m with you! I’m having a hard time giving my all to a job I am so ready to say goodbye to. I don’t have any advice except to say it SEEMS important to keep trying at a good level so nobody notices your work slipping, and so you will have recent examples of good work to bring up in interviews.

    5. ArtK*

      I went through this for the last couple of years. It can be very hard to keep producing at a high level. I certainly had times where I just gave the minimum, but still pushed through for some key issues and projects. It’s just part of who I am.

    7. (Former) HR Expat*

      I wasn’t able to turn it off when I left. My company was going through a major transition and I fighting with the payroll team on my last day, trying to make sure they had gotten certain details correct so they wouldn’t impact the next few months of payroll (even though I wouldn’t be impacted). I think it’s tough to turn it off.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      I continue to perform my work, but don’t go ‘above and beyond’ unless it’s to the team or people I like.
      But yeah, basically try to stay ‘outta the shit and politics.

    9. !*

      This is me to a T. I’ve actually been able to start caring little less about the stuff “only I” cared about and got me nowhere to report them. These are things that unless you were looking for them, would not “see” them and so I would fix them but I’m letting things slide as these aren’t things that are my job per se, but something my detail-oriented personality naturally does. These things will eventually bubble to the surface once I leave (I am sticking it out for another few years due to my pension needing more padding).

      I’m also taking Fridays off in the months there are no holidays, or adding an extra vacation day here and there to just “not be here”.

    10. QCI*

      When I had a customer service type job I always did my best regardless of how I felt about the company or management at the time, since my work problems weren’t the customers fault, so they shouldn’t get short changed for it.

    11. ACDC*

      I’m trying to dial down my high performer-ness right now and I’m still the highest performer on the team *face palm*

    12. Anonymous Educator*

      High performer to the end, even when I was in a toxic workplace. As long as I have to be there, might as well do a good job.

    13. Overeducated*

      I think this may be not quite the right binary. I have learned over time to “turn off” driving myself crazy over work, stressing about it, and working unpaid and unauthorized overtime – but I still do the best I can in the standard hours I work without being overly emotionally invested or promising to do more than I can handle, I’m one of the most productive people in my office, and my last couple supervisors have evaluated me as a high performer and gotten me promotions. When you say “high performance,” do you really mean putting in your best effort at work, or do you mean how you relate to the work in terms of time and mental load? I don’t see why you’d stop doing the first, but you can certainly change the second to make it healthier.

    14. Joielle*

      Personally, I did the minimum. Actually, it sort of went the other way – it was because I was doing the minimum that led to me looking for a new job in the first place. Not that anyone else noticed, but I started to do less and less and shortly realized that I was just so over the whole toxic job and agency and had to get out.

    15. Kate H*

      I’m on the verge of job hunting from my highly toxic workplace. I don’t think I could move on to just getting by. I always feel like I should do my best, and I love our department head enough that I would feel like I’m letting him down if I didn’t. If he left, though, I wouldn’t have a problem with keeping my head down, doing satisfactory work, and getting through the day.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I have to do my best because I have to live with ME.
      If you do not have a new job in line, keep doing your best. You don’t want to be known as the one who faded out towards the end of their employment. Think of it as creating more material for your resume and keep being you.

      I recently saw an instance of a superstar employee who tanked towards the end of their time with the company. This was an epic tank that included their disappearance and missing/dislocated items. Hard to know exactly what happened there, but the end result was there was not a person at the company who would give Superstar a good reference. It’s too bad that went that way because this was a very talented person and a very bright mind. (Actually, this was very upsetting for me.)

      For myself, years ago I had thought about this idea of doing less. I came to the conclusion that part of my identity is doing the best I can each day. If I do less than my best, then I am allowing people/circumstances around me to dictate how I should act and in turn I am allowing them to dictate parts of my identity. No one gets to dictate my identity.
      To balance this out, I checked individual tasks to figure out if I should be doing those tasks. It was easy to find stuff that was beyond my job description, or just plain not in my area of focus. I do have that part of me who takes on too much. I ditched the stuff that was over the top.
      You can do your best and still maintain boundaries.

  36. Piano Girl*

    My husband is extremely interested in working with a specific theatre company in our area (we recently moved). We know the artistic directors and my husband was hoping to audition this past year but wasn’t able due to a sudden illness. We will definitely become patrons and are looking forward to attending the upcoming productions. My question is this – is there any downside to volunteering with this organization? Is it possible, if the occasion arises to move from volunteering to employment?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Volunteering can be an excellent way to get a leg up on other applicants for a job. Having a personal connection to an organization and proven track record of work (because volunteering is work) can make an applicant stand out among a pool of other, equally qualified candidates.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      If it’s a community theater, sure, volunteer. Professional theaters won’t be picking actors from the volunteer pool, however, and thinking volunteering gives you an in on casting will be seen as pretty amateur. But if it is amateurs? Sure! Get involved! That’s what community theater is about.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I would put in a caveat to this, that if you have a specialized/valuable skill set that could be hard to find other volunteers for, or if you have a pretty close personal relationship with the artistic director and they ask for specific help when you offer, then volunteering could help grow that networking relationship.

        But generally, just showing up to usher or work the ticket booth isn’t going to be an “in.”

    3. OhGee*

      By employment, do you mean acting in a production, or some other role? If he wants to act with the company, I doubt doing some other story of volunteer work for them will be helpful, and it could be detrimental, because they might come to see him as a volunteer doing X, rather than an actor. In my experience, it is very, very unlikely that a volunteer gig at a theater will ever turn in to a paid job.

      1. valentine*

        There was a letter like this, only it wasn’t a theater. One of the things that came up is that, if you’re a good volunteer, they’re going to want to keep you as one.

  37. Akcipitrokulo*

    Plain. And, imo, aestetically pleasing!

    Actually not completely plain. when I have indented bullet points I make one of them the pretty arrows.

    I have a couple of paragraphs intro, then bullet points of the technical skills and acheivements (like set up X from scratch), then a (borderless) table that has dates, company & title, achievements. I use one style of bulets for my top acheivment for each role, then another for the rest.

    From a distance it looks clean and unfussy, and close up you can see the relevant stuff quickly.

    1. Close Bracket*

      when I have indented bullet points I make one of them the pretty arrows.

      So, like the first bullet in the list is a pretty arrow and the rest are dots or something? That sounds interesting. Maybe I’ll play around with something like that.

  38. Relatively new hire*

    I’m now 4-5months into a role and it has become increasingly clear it’s not a good fit- mainly my boss, but also the org is a hot mess. I’m really bummed because I really wanted to work at this place and had hoped to grow in this position and on paper it had everything I was looking for- including higher salary. The reality is my boss refuses to let me do anything I was hired for (I was hired to help her manage a certain part of the work of the dept so she has time for other things) and micromanages even the most minor tasks, yet won’t set up one on one meetings with me bc she’s too busy, what used to be a full team is now just me bc of my boss so I’ve been stuck with all of the work, and I even had a conversation with upper management about my boss where they admitted they are trying to do something but essentially are waiting for her to leave on her own. I haven’t started looking with purpose yet, but a former colleague knows my situation and has been trying hard to get me to work with her- she says their org has a really wonderful team and lead and she’s new to her job as well but she really loves it. Someone doing similar work to me at a lower level at that org just put in their notice to go to grad school, and I have a conversation with the lead next week where I hope to learn more- things are bad enough that even if they can’t raise the salary at all or the title I might just take it because I don’t care anymore as long as I can pay my bills and I just want to work on a healthy team, and it sounds like there’s room to make more of the position.

    My question is- if this works out, or even if it doesn’t but I find something else, and I give notice to my boss after 5-6 months, for a lower level position at a smaller org, how do I frame it? Can I just say “I realized it wasn’t a good fit for me”? My boss is very ambitious and assumes I am the same- she keeps referencing me wanting her job or to work at a bigger org, and she’s not letting me hire for a position we need bc the only qualified candidate “doesn’t come from a [more respected org]”. Coincidentally this is the position that I manage, aka one of the reasons I took the position, and it’s not like the candidate comes from somewhere with a bad reputation, just that it doesn’t have name recognition and that would “look bad for our hiring if anyone found out”.

    I’m sure my boss will come up with her own story but I’m really trying to search for a diplomatic way to frame my bowing out of a job after a really short period of time. Most of the people in the dept know my boss is a nightmare so I’m sure it would be obvious which to me is even more reason I should have at least a plausible excuse. The commute will be like 30-20 mins shorter? A lot of people have left since I started but I don’t think there’s been anyone with as short of a tenure as me (assuming I get out in the next month or so).

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oh, she sounds great, your boss. That reluctance to hire someone because of the company they worked for, not their skills… that’s a nightmare for a lot of good candidates, and it’s silly to boot.

      I think you’re ok with, “This hasn’t been a great fit and it’s just not for me.” Your boss doesn’t need to know where you’re going or at what level. You can also say that an opportunity came up that you just couldn’t turn down.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since she’s not letting you do what you were hired to do, this sounds like a good case of “the job turned out to be very different from what I was told it would be.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. That is what I would go with, because that is what I would say on interviews. So my reasoning would match if the two parties ever checked with each other. “The job was not what I was told and expected it to be.”

    3. sacados*

      I think if you’re wondering about how to frame it to talk to your current boss, I would just go with the “good fit” angle and then just be politely vague after that.
      And there’s no rule that says you have to tell your boss which org you’ll be moving to and/or what position it will be. You can easily get away with not mentioning that the role is “lower level” if you’re worried Current Boss will be judgy or lecture you about it.

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m sure we had a letter earlier this week about a boss not “letting” someone quit. I don’t think you need an excuse, just say that it isn’t as good a fit as you thought it would be and your last day will be X.

      Also, not wanting to hire someone because they don’t work at a prestigious enough organisation? Who is going to “find out” or care? What a snob.

  39. Fiona*

    Some red-flag questions for the AAM crew.

    Backstory: my husband has had a long, solid career in sales for technology companies but a few years ago, he started his own business in an unrelated field. It’s been going well enough but it’s also been inconsistent and not quite enough business is coming in to pay the bills. He’s accumulated some debt, so he’s back on the full-time job hunt.

    After a 6+ month job hunt that hasn’t yielded any firm offers, he got an offer yesterday for a sales job. The pay is good but the company (which is primarily located overseas but positions itself as a global company, with an American presence and well-known clients) gave him some red flags, including the following:

    – After a phone interview, he went in for an in-person interview, at which point they offered him the job on the spot. No references were asked for.
    – The job is specifically for a full-time employee but offers zero benefits (health, etc)
    – My husband wrote a warm and enthusiastic email upon receiving the offer letter, inquiring if there was wiggle room in the salary, since benefits weren’t being offered. The hiring manager responded in a weird and hostile tone, seemingly offended that my husband tried to negotiate (??) and saying that they had already met his “demand” despite it not being in their budget.
    – In that same email, my husband had inquired about vacation days and was told he was entitled to all U.S. federal holidays. So seemingly no PTO at all.

    If he was not in debt, there is almost no chance that he would take this job. Based on who is hiring, a lot of this may be cultural/language issues at play, but even so, they should know that benefits, vacation days, and salary negotiations are extremely common in American hiring, so it gives me pause as to what ELSE they will do that is atypical down the road.

    So my questions are the following:

    1. If you were in his shoes, would you consider the job or is it just too many flags?
    2. They pay monthly as opposed to biweekly. Is that a flag? We weren’t sure.
    3. Have you ever heard of a full-time job in the United States that doesn’t offer any vacation days at all?

    Thanks, all!

    1. Ali G*

      For me, too many red flags. I would not take that job.
      The only way I would consider it would be if it paid enough to pay off the debt in a very short amount of time (6 months max) and I would be looking the whole time I was working to move on once the debt is paid (or before if something better came along I could see myself in full time).

    2. ArtK*

      Run away! Far too many red flags. The hostile response to a negotiation request would have done it for me.

    3. BeansieBoo*

      There are enough red flags that I would not accept unless it was really my only option financially. The hostile reaction to what is a normal question in hiring, in particular, stood out to me. If it is classified as an exempt/salary position rather than nonexempt/hourly I do think the complete lack of vacation days is a red flag, even in the US where we have comparably few days.

      Paying monthly rather than biweekly isn’t necessarily a big red flag and can be common in some fields/positions – though it can require more careful budgeting. For Anecdata examples, 1) when I was an instructor at the University of State they paid on the last day of the month, 2) my best friend works for Local City Government and gets paid monthly (we had the same payday for a while and would celebrate together), and 3) and my brother just switched sub-companies at Big Media Entity (think moving from the print media wing to video/digital media development) and went from being paid on the 15th and last day of the month to just the last day of the month.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve been paid monthly before, that’s not necessarily a flag.
      Offered the job on the spot? Not necessarily a flag (it’s happened to me twice) unless it comes with intense pressure to accept on the spot.
      No benefits AND no PTO? Enough of a red flag to decline. That’s highly unusual for US full time jobs, IME.
      Added to that, the hostile response to negotiation? If they won’t budge on salary, there are plenty of polite neutral ways of communicating that. Run away.

    6. no, the other Laura*

      Run. These are not legitimate, upstanding people.

      I have been offered a job without people asking for references, but it was because they already knew me by reputation and there were plenty of people in the company I’d worked with in the past who had referred me for the interview in the first place. This is literally the only situation in which I can see not asking for references being okay.

      Monthly pay is annoying, but not a red flag per se. I’ve been paid monthly by real companies, it was somewhat crummy for the first month or so until my paychecks caught up with my bills, but the checks all cleared. And I’ve had jobs that didn’t negotiate at all on salary.

      The big red flags are really no vacation days and no benefits and being rude instead of professional about negotiating. Even the places I’ve worked that didn’t negotiate weren’t offended when I tried to, they just said, “sorry, this is our last best final offer, take some time to think about it and let us know.”

    7. pcake*

      I would consider these red flags.

      Paying the same salary with no benefits? No, thanks!

      My husband and I pay $750 per month for our health insurance – his company pays an additional $1,000 per month. For my husband to take a job without benefits would cost us an additional $1,750 per month every month. A job with no benefits would have to offer him $21,000 above and beyond wages just to make up for that.

      I have heard of full time jobs here that don’t offer vacation days. Unsurprisingly they’re mostly entry level, horrible jobs. And consider this – if your husband gets 2 paid weeks of vacation per year and he makes $48,000 per year, not having those 2 paid weeks means he’d be giving up another $1,846 worth of perks each year. If he makes more per year or gets more weeks, he could lose easily double that or more.

      That the hiring manager is hostile about negotiation isn’t a good thing. That they don’t want to make up for what he’d be having to pay out of his own pocket in order to work for them on his own means they’re either cheap, unreasonable, broke or some of all three. Oh, or clueless. None of these are a good thing.

      I would consider taking this job only if we needed it in order to pay for immediate housing and food, and I would keep looking for a job after accepting. If I had enough money to make it for a while, I wouldn’t consider that job. Is there some freelance work he can do?

        1. Booksalot*

          It’s not in his field, but some retail/CS jobs offer benefits to part-timers. Starbucks, Whole Foods, and Costco are a few.

      2. Foreign Octopus*

        I beg your pardon, but British person here.

        Your health insurance is a total of $1750 A MONTH!?! That is insane. That’s more money than I make in a month. How do you people survive???

        1. Midwest writer*

          Short answer? It’s a mess.
          But at my last job, I paid about that much monthly for health and dental for our family of 5. It just ended up lowering my income so much that I got it all back on a tax return in a lump sum every March. (insert shrugging emoji here)

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Many people just plain do not have health insurance. Many people go into bankruptcy because of that. All it takes is “an always healthy person” dropping health insurance and then getting into an accident or having an appendix rupture or….
          It’s awful.

        3. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, that’s insane. Mine is only $99/month and, before that, it was about $170/month – I will never complain again. Damn.

        4. Jane*

          That’s likely for a family, but yes.

          I’m a single person and my health insurance costs a total of about $700 per month, and my employer pays about $500 of it.

          It sucks. It keeps people from being able to retire, start businesses, stay home with their kids. People go bankrupt from health care costs more than any other reason. People lose their homes because of health care costs. People die from trying to ration their medication or not see a doctor when they need to. Our health system is a cancer on our society. Unfunny pun intended.

        6. Crabby Patty*

          In the US, health insurance is tied to employment.

          And that’s just Level One of our collective stupidity.

    8. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      Vacation and health benefits are part of what good companies offer to retain good employees and it appears to be a nightmare job in the making. It boils down to how desperately he needs a job. He can always take it and continue to look for a new one.
      I had a job where I got paid once a month. It was tough to manage my bills getting a big lump at the beginning of the month, so I had to be more diligent with planning for the whole month.

      1. PharmaCat*

        It sounds like he would be a contractor, not employee. Ask is the company intends to withhold taxes and pay their share of social security.

    10. GladIdidntfallforit*

      Is this a hard sales job? I ask bc I naively interviewed for several when I was fresh out of school. Hired on the spot, no benefits, hard selling, promises of tons of money paid to me. I ran for the hills. I stupidly interviewed for a few of these. Thankfully I didn’t end up in them. They have incredibly high turnover and often involve cold calling and even going door to door. One bad sales month and you are out.q

    11. E*

      Too many red flags. No PTO and no benefits + hostility from hiring manager make it sound like this will be a horrendous place to work.

    12. Justme, The OG*

      Red flags abound.

      I’m paid monthly, I work in higher education. It’s not so weird.

      I sadly know of some positions that offer no benefits and no vacation or sick time. I won’t work for those places.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well…I mean what’s he got to lose by accepting the job and then quitting within a couple of weeks if they’re truly awful?

      These are red flags though and if he doesn’t want to proceed with the idea that he’ll bounce as soon as the next good thing comes along, then it’s no biggie, in my opinion there.

      Lots of places pay monthly, not a flag.

      Lots of full time jobs have no vacation and no benefit, none of those are good jobs with solid companies though, that’s for sure! [Seriously, I think a lot of us are just used to being in positions that these benefits are available but millions people don’t even get paid holidays or vacation time.

    14. ANOTHER friday anon*

      If they’re an overseas company paying monthly may be the norm in their country of origin. I am in Europe and monthly is pretty much the norm over here. Most of my colleagues who have never gotten into contact with American culture would be really weirded out by biweekly pay.

    15. SC*

      Another red flag– the company flat-out said the salary is not within their budget. So, in addition to there being no PTO and no benefits, it’s not clear that the company is able to make payroll. And your husband won’t find that out for at least a month. Even if they can make payroll, they already sound hostile and resentful about the offer. I say RUN.

    16. Fortitude Jones*

      I would definitely pass. A full-time job with no benefits at all?! No leave time, low salary, and they hired him on the spot? Nah, this place has problems. I’ve known places that pay monthly, so that part isn’t a red flag, but I’d worry about their ability to make payroll and that’s why they have monthly pay.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Your hubby can get a better position than this. Debt combined with This Job is stuff nightmares are made of.
      Don’t start down this road.

      1) No way in hell.
      2)No
      3) Yes, they are called crappy jobs.

    18. justathought*

      Use of the word “demand” definitely a language/cultural thing.
      1. Too many flags.
      2. No.
      3. Yes.
      Could he reach out on LinkedIn to someone at the company just for general information?
      Did you guys research Glassdoor, Yelp and Better Business Bureau for any unfavorable reviews?
      Good luck with it, keep us posted!

    19. CDM*

      Monthly pay is illegal in some states (Google suggests about half), so that’s certainly a flag. My partner had an employer (headquartered overseas) who switched staff to monthly pay, only to have to change back because, oops, it was illegal in that state. I would check your state’s pay frequency law.

  40. [A Cool Name Here]*

    Can I point out to a co-manager that her co-manager’s management style is really dragging down the team morale?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Depends on your standing, the relationship between the managers, how specific you can get, etc. Your position will be stronger if you can get others on the team to join you in pointing it out.

      I was a co-manager in a retail position many years ago. I had someone come to me with some very specific concerns, I had the same concerns. I talked it over with my co-manager, but it came down to a basic philosophical difference (I thought ‘higher position = higher responsibility / if there’s a someone missing in a shift it’s on us’, co-m thought ‘higher position = more delegation’). I took it to my bosses. Co-m left the store.

      Factors that mattered:
      I had a good working relationship with the team.
      The 2 (out of 8) employees who mentioned it were very valuable, relatively long experience
      There was more than 1 person mentioning it to me
      It was very specific: “there was no one at the register while Co-m was in the office” not “Co-m is mean”

      1. [A Cool Name Here]*

        I am subordinate to Boss (who has been in her position for over 7 years) and we get on very well on a day-to-day level. But her management style is demoralizing – showing frustration with us when we’re not meeting her unspoken expectations, never telling us her expectations even when asked, never acknowledging that we’ve kicked butt to accomplish what we have, and taking out her stress on us when she’s under pressure. Above all, never ever taking responsibility for her mistakes (although she doesn’t make them often). She can flip-flop between being positive and being negative, but she’s more negative in her attitude and not sympathetic to our frustrations.

        Boss is a co-manager to Manager (<6 mos employee), who is upbeat, positive, a direct communicator who tells you her expectations, listens to our frustrations, validates our feelings of over-the-top stress and actively and openly problem solves to resolve issues. I'd like to let Manager in on how Boss' negative attitude towards us is demoralizing because we're in a rough spot now with limited resolutions. I don't want this to come back and bite me in the butt.

        Honestly, Manager could tell me in the kindest manner that I'm fired and I'd thank her for being awesome while being ushered out the door. I hope for the future is that Manager manages the team and Boss manages Manager and her boss.

        1. Alianora*

          I think you can definitely bring up the part about unspoken expectations. The rest is important too, but I would focus on that because it’s clearly an issue even if you’re taking all emotions out of it. And I would recommend stating that this is demoralizing, but focusing mainly on the effect it has on work.

          If you want to go the ultra cautious route, you could talk about the “procedure” for communicating expectations, rather than the person. But the manager sounds reasonable enough that I would speak more frankly.

  41. Catherine de Medici*

    I need some support and reassurances that it is ok to be super picky about a job and that you don’t have to take any offer that comes your way. I’ve been applying for a higher grade federal position but I’m happy enough in my current job (currently a fed). I mostly just want more money since I’ve hit the limit of the automatic career ladder on grade increases. I had a bunch of interviews recently and I think I stand a decent chance of getting at least one offer but some of them don’t have quite as flexible a telework policy as my current job. That seems like it’s too picky of a reason to turn down an offer and I just need reminders that interviewing is a two-way street and I don’t have to take an offer I don’t love when it isn’t necessary.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      You get to determine what’s important to you. If the flexible telework policy is important to you, then you get to make that a dealbreaker! There have been plenty of times in the past that I’ve convinced myself to overlook something that was actually important to me when taking a job (the worst was telling myself I was okay with an hourlong commute each way, oof). You’re completely justified.

      1. Catherine de Medici*

        These positions are all still at my own agency, just not my current office and there’s talk of moving our agency to a location that would double my commute to over 2 hrs, which is why the telework situation is so vital. I have a dog and my commute cannot be over an hour long. If I get an offer and take one of these jobs, I’ll be sticking with the agency through the move, so I better be allowed to telework 3 or 4 days a week.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      I’m on the same boat – have it pretty good at current job but there are a few things that would make my life better so I’m out looking but now the employer has to tick ALL of the boxes for me to leave.

      1. Catherine de Medici*

        My friends keep pushing me to do something different because they personally hate the kind of work I do and it’s frustrating (I’m an acceptance tester for economic systems, applications and backend database type stuff). If I could do my absolute dream vocation and not worry about money, is this what I would do? No, but it pays the bills and it’s interesting enough for me. Plus, my coworkers and supervisor are great, which is hard to find in a job. My friends don’t get why I don’t want to constantly be bouncing around and doing new, exciting things. I just want more money but my pay is already decent as a fed. I’m certainly not struggling.

        1. justathought*

          Could you do a side gig for that extra cash you are looking for? Or re-work the budget, or change your withholding to ”find” extra money? Consolidate any debt for a lower payment? This way you could maintain the status quo for a bit.

    3. Overeducated*

      You don’t have to, you’re in a pretty ideal position to choose what you want and not just take what you’re given.

      That said, consider that your current job’s telework policy may change, some federal agencies are making it more restrictive – don’t give up a good thing because of something that might never happen, but just also think about how you’d feel if you turned down the job and new restrictions came down right after. (I just had the opposite happen – didn’t get a job, but a couple weeks later a new policy was introduced that would have made the position telework ineligible – definitely made the rejection pill easier to swallow!)

      1. Catherine de Medici*

        These are all positions within my agency, just not my particular office, so the official telework policy is the same regardless but some supervisors still have a butts in seats attitude that I find ridiculous in 2019. I’m not worried about the official policy changing since our department has pushed for more flexibility in terms of core hours and such in the last few years and our union reps are on top of stuff like that.

    4. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      It’s your career! Deciding what to do with it is a big deal. And the telecommuting part is clearly important to you. Feel free to be picky.

  42. Its5oclocksomewhere*

    I just started a new job a few weeks ago and I was sitting at my desk working. My coworker, “Mary”, was walking back to her desk and said to me, “I’m happy that you’re here- even though it may not seem like it.”

    I was surprised because it seemed to come out of nowhere. Mary was busy and we didn’t even see each other until that moment. I never said anything to anyone about her not liking me or thought otherwise. I like her- she’s very knowledgeable and funny.

    It caught me off guard, so I just thanked her, but what do you say to something like that? Again, I never had anyone say that; I never told anyone, “Mary doesn’t like me.” I’m still pretty new, so I don’t know what to think at this point. Any ideas?

    1. MPA*

      It’s possible she felt bad about something she said or someone mentioned something to her without mentioning it t o you.

      These situations are always hard because if you (in this case Mary) suspect the person heard you say something or they interpreted incorrectly, you want to smooth things over.

      I once had a coworker apologize for something I didn’t even hear and it made me feel bad when otherwise I would have been fine. But by apologizing they made sure I heard it, lol.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      It’s just nice — she feels bad that she hasn’t had time to get to know you yet!

      1. Interplanet Janet*

        This is my read, too. It’s a sort-of apology for not having had/made time to be as welcoming as she’d like.

        1. KR*

          Yes!! she may have Resting B!tch Face and be saying “hey we haven’t had a chance to talk but I’m so glad you’re here!!”

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Meh I wouldn’t worry too much about that, she might normally be super outgoing and enthusiastic so her busy demeanor might have come across as unhappy to someone who knows her but is perfectly fine to you without that context.

      It can also be that she’s been told that she hasn’t been super welcoming to you and is trying to address that or she’s dealt with people before that found her to be hard to read and she’s trying to preempt that, all while you just happen to not be taking it that way.

      I was once pulled aside at a past job when I started and told “hey don’t worry, [department head] is just super dry and intense, you’ll be fine” and I was like “??????? What? He’s hilarious!” Apparently some coworkers in different departments had found him intimidating so they wanted to give me the heads up, but it wasn’t necessary in my case.

      I think you’re fine!

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh, gosh, this sounds like something I’d say, when I’m trying to apologize for not being open and friendly and available.

    5. New Normal*

      I need to vent a bit – I work for a non-profit and about half the time we have volunteers who are assigned to me ostentatiously to help me and take a few tasks off my overflowing desk. Thing is … they don’t. I really just need someone to sit at the front desk and greet the occasional person who comes in, answer basic questions, and answer the phone when it rings. Bonus points if they’re willing to dust a bit. If they do that then they’re really super helpful and I can get so much more done!

      Unfortunately the vast majority of volunteers we’ve had feel the need to do more and either stop volunteering (had a couple walk out mid-shift, even) or come to me every five minutes complaining that they’re bored and asking for something to do, no matter how much I tell them that just BEING here is what I need. So to keep them from leaving or coming in to chat I have lists of busywork that they can do. All of it’s pretty basic stuff – put stickers on these bags like this example bag, cut ribbon to this length (give example ribbon and give them a yard stick with cutting marks on it), cut these promotional handouts, etc.

      Except then I inevitably need to babysit them. I lost a whole printout of promotional handouts because the volunteer decided to cut them in random places instead of on the clearly-marked cutting lines. And even without the lines it should have been SO OBVIOUS where to cut! Another time I asked my volunteer to trim some cardstock for a poster and told her that she could use any scissors except the ribbon scissors. The scissors with “RIBBON SCISSORS, DO NOT USE” written all over them. Don’t use those. I told her that three times. Guess which scissors will no longer cut our ribbon without snags, thanks to being used?

      At this point I’m tired of trying to out-think all the ways a super-simple task can go wrong. I’m tired of having to interrupt my own work every five minutes to show my volunteer how to do simple tasks, knowing that there’s a better-than-even odds that it’ll still be done wrong. I’m tired of hiding my frustration when interrupted, tired of smiling and trying to find a kind way to correct them when I just want to scream.

      Unfortunately the volunteers are a non-negotiable for this job and every so often we do get that one that’s really helpful and is willing to come in regularly. I love those volunteers. So it’s not all bad. But this past week has been especially frustrating with a couple volunteers who really just want to sit around and chat with me or do ALL THE THINGS even when they can’t handle the most basic tasks.

      I’m working on my resume and devising an exit strategy so hopefully this will be a thing of the past soon. I just needed to rant, though. And it’s making me both a bad manager to our one paid employee and a bad partner to my husband. Our one paid part-time employee, who I manage, isn’t a rock star but she can cut on lines more often than not and I have a hard time holding her to the standards I should because I’m just so flippin’ excited that I only have to sort-of micromanage her. And at home I’m getting increasingly short with my poor husband because I have zero patience after 8 hours of trying to out-think others. So obviously this needs to change.

      1. New Normal*

        Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry, this should NOT have nested here! I’m not even sure how that happened. Sorry!

      2. Asta*

        “or come to me every five minutes complaining that they’re bored and asking for something to do, no matter how much I tell them that just BEING here is what I need.“

        But it’s not what they need. The thing about volunteers is that they want to have a good experience, and I think this isn’t the right way to manage them. Sorry!

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I used to manage volunteers and it’s a nightmare. If they aren’t willing to perform the work that is actually needed, then they should volunteer elsewhere. I managed volunteers at the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, and quite a few of them assumed they were going to be in the trenches doing detective work and saving victimized children themselves. We had highly trained professionals for that. I needed someone to stuff envelopes.

          1. Asta*

            Sorry but when you’re having people help out for free, you do need to be a bit more thoughtful than this.

            1. Joielle*

              And what, let them do work they’re not qualified for? Let them interrupt employees? I think when you want to help out somewhere for free, you need to internalize the idea that you’re there to help with what they need and you don’t necessarily get to do the most fun, exciting thing.You’re contributing to the organization’s success no matter what your specific role is. If you can’t understand that, then you’re not a good volunteer because babysitting you is more trouble than it’s worth.

              (Can you tell that I, too, have managed unruly volunteers. Ha!)

            2. post it*

              I mean, DO you? You don’t owe someone a fulfilling volunteer opportunity at your org just because they want one. Be honest and upfront with them about what you need and your expectations and let them self-select out.

          2. AAMreader10*

            Usually this issue boils down to one of two things:

            1. Failure to manage expectations by the organization. Going on @Lily’s example and my own experience in public safety (both paid and volunteer) it is something like:

            Title: Incident Tactical Response Officer
            Requirements: 21+, fingerprint investigation and polygraph
            Duties: stuffing envelopes and tying ribbons on trees

            Then when the volunteers (rightfully) complain about why such an invasive process was needed for their duties they are essentially told to sit down and shut up.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Managing volunteers is not the same as managing paid workers. There’s entire books written on this subject.

          However, I think that is super important to tell the volunteer what the job is before they start. “Bring a book or some needlework, as this job requires you to sit by the phone for the time you are here.”

          There is nothing wrong with saying clearly and upfront, “What I need the most is not to be interrupted.” But you can give with the other hand by checking on them every couple hours. “How’s it going here?”

          But yeah, what works with paid employees may not work with volunteers.

          Scissors. When a place uses volunteers stuff gets abused or even broken. It’s part of the cost of having volunteers. If I find myself worried about scissors I tend to think I have a bigger issue than just scissors going on.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I imagine that if she weren’t so busy she would have made an effort to more formally welcome you to the office — take you out to lunch or something — and just in case you had been expecting that and were wondering, she was trying to reassure you that you are welcome…but she did it in a very awkward way. I wouldn’t read too much more into it.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      Maybe it’s weird joke that landed flat. You could ask her what she meant – using a neutral, inquisitive tone.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      @5oclock, you are reading way too much into the comment. It was an awkward comment by a harried person who felt they owed you some type of modest apology or olive branch because they had not been very welcoming.

      You can just say thanks and if you think of it you can add, “no problem” so that she knows you had no concerns. Then just let it go. She was trying to be kind.

  43. Injured*

    I posted last week about adaptable clothing for shoulder surgery and I have another question! I’m still waitlisted for a surgery date and the pain has been really bad. I’m working with my doc on a pain med routine until I have surgery, but I’m stuck with what to do at work. If I take the pain med I’ve been prescribed (norco), I can’t function well because it makes me fuzzy headed. But if I don’t, the pain makes me feel nauseous and unable to concentrate well. Does anyone have any tips on how to get through this part? I would love to be able to go out on medical leave early, but I have to save it for postop recovery.

    Many thanks!

    1. CheeryO*

      That’s tough, so sorry you’re going through that! I think you should take your medication and just do your best at work, assuming your fuzzy-headedness isn’t going to be jeopardizing anyone else’s safety or anything like that.

      It may be a good idea to give people a heads-up about what you’re going through, maybe on an as-needed basis, if they don’t already know at this point. I can only speak for myself, but I appreciate when coworkers let me know that they aren’t at their best. That way, I can be a little extra proactive when it comes to asking them for updates, reviewing their work, etc. Luckily, this is a short-term thing, so it’s not like you’re asking people to make accommodations for you forever.

      1. Injured*

        Thanks so much for your perspective! I’m in a sling most of the time so it’s pretty obvious that something is going on :) I guess it’s better to be a little fuzzy and not miserable, than miserable and unable to concentrate.

    2. Not All*

      I’m sure you thought of the obvious…but did you ask your doctor about different options for pain medications? I know for me, there are only one or two that work for me. The others are either “make me so dopey I literally cannot be unsupervised” or “might as well have taken a sugar pill”. (It doesn’t help that I flat refuse to take any opioids due to some family history.)

      1. Anonysand*

        This was going to be my suggestion as well. About 5 years ago I blew out my knee, and I was in a similar situation while waiting for surgery. I had to try a couple of different pain pills before I found the right one that worked well enough to deal with the pain while also not making me feel completely drunk. That being said, I only took about 7 days worth of the 30 day Vicodin supply they prescribed me after the surgery and switched to extra-strength Tylenol every 6 hours. It didn’t work AS well (although still enough to be functional) but I felt more comfortable knowing that I was clear-headed enough to do my job and be able to drive myself home.

      2. TooTiredToThink*

        Yep; this. Maybe also checking with the doctor about taking a half dose – enough to take the edge of the pain, but not enough to make you too fuzzy headed if this is the only thing you can take – but your doctor should be the one guiding you on this.

        1. Pills*

          This. My husband was prescribed Norco for a eye injury. He didn’t like the effects so started cutting them in half and that worked perfectly for him. Side note he also discovered that they help his migraines if he comes home, takes half a pill, and then a 30 minute nap. Not ideal but due to his job he cannot take any other migraine medicine.
          He get a migraine about every 4-5 weeks so no worries about addiction and he talked with his primary GP about it and she is (mostly) ok with it.

          1. valentine*

            Cutting a pill doesn’t result in proportion the dosage, so, just be wary because you won’t know how much you’re taking.

    3. KoiFeeder*

      Can you take less Norco, or request something else from your doc? If no pain means you can’t function, and all the pain also means you can’t function, you don’t have to pick between the two. Just getting it down to the point where you can function is perfectly reasonable.

    4. Sara*

      Ugh, so sorry you’re dealing with this. I know the feeling, unfortunately.

      Even though your doc prescribed narcotics for pain, can you take Tylenol/Ibuprophen on an alternating schedule during the days? If you talk to your doc, they might tell you what you can take and how much. It probably won’t kill the pain at all but it might take the top edge off so you don’t feel like you’re about to vomit from how much it hurts all the time. Also, any options for acupuncture in your area? I’ve used it with some mild success and again, it might just take some of of the edge off the pain so you can work. Hopefully you can explain to your boss about what’s happening so they can understand if you’re a bit less productive than usual. Depending on the state you’re in, CBD oils (or similar) might also help with taking some of the pain down to a more manageable level. Best of luck in your surgery and recovery!

  44. May Queen Summer*

    Based on a letter this week I was wondering if anyone has any advice on what to do if the bad communication habits are coming from inside the management circle?

    I switched to a new team at work and there are 3 people who I report to/are above me, and none of them can answer a question in a clear and easy to understand manner! They are all constantly either over explaining on simple yes/no questions OR ignore previous emails. I can’t count the number of times this week alone that people have replied to emails where I’ve said things like “Our Llama budget approved a new grooming campaign!” with “But does the budget approve this campaign??” Their messages are also rife with typos/leaps in logic that make it really, really hard for me to parse things right away. The worst part is that we’re remote, and all 3 managers are in different timezones so calling for clarification isn’t always an option. It’s driving me truly bonkers and combined with other red flags is really making me regret this move.

    1. New Normal*

      I don’t have advice but lots of sympathy. That would have me banging my head against hard surfaces daily.

    2. Minocho*

      If I had a dollar for every time I received a “Yes.” answer to a question in the form “Should we do A, or B? With A and B being mutually exclusive,” I would have a new TV.

    3. Kate H*

      I wish I had advice but I only have commiseration. A few months ago, I got bitched out by upper management for not doing a project the way they wanted it. When our department head asked for clarification on a few points so that I could redo it, he never received a response. It’s exhausting.

  45. Zephy*

    Big oof time: we just got word that the state of California has passed a law making CA residents enrolled in 100% online degree programs through non-CA-based universities ineligible for federal student aid. I’m still not sure how this is legal, some kind of loophole from what I understand. But the college I work for does have a handful of students that will be affected by this. I dunno whose responsibility it’ll be to make those phone calls–probably not mine, thank goodness–but my heart goes out to those fifty or so people.

    1. De Minimis*

      I did some reading on this because my spouse is considering online programs and we live in CA. It’s not a California law, it’s a federal regulation that is taking effect [after much delay] that California hasn’t complied with. It’s something to do with the state not having a complaint process in place for online students, or else work out an agreement with another state who does have such a process. A court may provide some type of relief, but it’s a bad situation for the students until it does get resolved.

      1. blaise zamboni*

        Oh man – I’ve been waffling about finishing my degree online at an out-of-state school for a few months, and FAFSA eligiblity was my biggest concern. This is really disappointing to hear :( I do take some small comfort knowing CA isn’t just trying to screw over students, but still.

    2. Little Beans*

      Just to clarify, I think it is an Education Department rule that is affecting students (not a CA law).

    3. OperaArt*

      Not that it helps your students, but California did not pass such a law. Rather this is due to a judge’s ruling in a dispute with the federal Department of Education involving students having a way to make complaints.
      Here’s hoping the legal dispute gets resolved so the students aren’t trapped in the middle.

    4. Zephy*

      Replying to myself to sort of reply to all of you – thanks for the clarification. It seemed weird to me that a state could make a law like that so I’m glad that’s not the case. Still though, what a crappy situation all around.

  46. Argh so frustrated right now*

    So I made a mistake when choosing how to prepare for the next steps in my career (and life).

    I moved abroad in June and started a summer school to learn the local language and it was not at all up to my expectations. It feels like a waste of money and I am incredibly frustrated. We barely worked on communication skills, only on grammar (I love grammar but you cannot buy a loaf of bread or ask for directions just because you can correctly identify the subject and the object in a long sentence).

    In short, the course did not deliver what it promised (communication and grammar). I cannot understand when someone addresses me in the local language (which sounds like mumbling compared to the overenunciated way the teacher speaks), even if it is something I know how to write and say in theory. And this is the case for all of us in class. I have learnt languages before and I know that at this level we should be able to understand and say more than what we are capable of now.

    I typed out a long list of complaints about the course and the motivation of my classmates but just having everything written made me feel so much better that I decided to not share my ramblings with you.

    I know I will eventually learn the language but the summer school was expensive, and I got to learn in the meantime that the course offered by language school I originally wanted is much better. It would have cost the same. Should have gone for it.

    I would love to hear how you have coped with something similar in your professional life.

    1. sacados*

      Not so much about setbacks, but language learning tips in general.
      Watch lots of movies/TV, it can be a really big help with getting used to normal natural speech patterns. For example, watch an episode with English subtitles, then go back and watch it again without subtitles, then maybe again with CC type subtitles in the local language.
      That sort of thing can really help get your ears acclimated to true daily-life conversations.

      And for speaking practice, it can really help to take an article/book/whatever — something written in the local language– and just read it out loud. That also helps you get used to physically voicing and shaping the words.
      Those are two things that have really helped me.

    2. Minocho*

      Oh man, that’s rough. I learned a language in a classroom, and when I moved to the country in question, the area where I was placed was out in the country with a very strong dialect. Strong enough that the entire rhythm of the language changed, and it took me 6 months to regain my ability to communicate without asking for them to slow down and speak the capital city dialect.

      Then the coworkers who would overpronounce things to the point that there was barely a resemblance between the word spoken normally versus “can’t language well foreigner” mode. Ugh. Surprisingly non-helpful.

      Good luck! Get out there – face to face learning is super helpful, as body language makes up for a surprising amount of language difficulty. Except when it doesn’t. I also found having a drink, when safe and appropriate, loosened up my self-consciousness enough to allow me to stop self-sabotaging my efforts to learn and improve.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      Hi, ESL teacher here.

      I’ve taught at these types of language schools that you’re talking about, and I tend to advise people to steer clear of them for just the reasons that you’ve mentioned. As a teacher, your hands are tied with what you can offer your students and then there’s the problem of mixed-level classes that should burn in the pits of hell because they are so fiendishly complex and completely useless.

      However, please do check out iTalki for teachers in your language. It’s one-on-one via Skype or FaceTime, and you tell the teacher exactly what you want. It’s great for conversational practice. I teach English there but I also learn Spanish on it too. You might find that a better option.

  47. CustServGirl*

    Good News: I GOT A RAISE!

    I’m hourly, and it was very unexpected, but I received a decent raise that has actually put me within the pay range that’s appropriate for my role (I was underpaid for a long time). I’m so happy my effort and work are being noticed and appreciated.

  48. rageismycaffeine*

    I recently became the supervisor of a longtime employee here (Betty) whose previous managers have not done much in the way of enforcing expectations and discipline. Her job is data entry to keep up information on alumni and donors in our fundraising CRM. Our lead fundraiser brought her a magazine put out by one of the colleges in our university, pointed out the “alumni notes” section, and asked her to update the records of the alumni based on what they reported. Betty apparently essentially said that this was not her job, whereupon the lead fundraiser agreed to bring it to me and ask what should be done with it.

    I, of course, brought it back to Betty and asked her again to make the updates. Betty responded with “Can you add it to my job description?” and proceeded to insist that her job is only to make updates from *mailings,* and doesn’t say anything about magazines.

    So now I have a copy of her job description in front of me, so I can show her that it says absolutely nothing about what data source she updates from. Unfortunately, it also doesn’t have that classic phrase “other duties as assigned.”

    You know what it does say? Plenty of things that she’s *not* doing.

    We’ll be having a nice conversation in a couple of weeks about what her job actually is. And I will be updating this to include “other duties as assigned” so I’m ready the next time she tries to tell me something isn’t in her job description.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Ugh, how frustrating! I’m dealing with something similar, though unfortunately I’m not the supervisor, just a superior, and the amount of pushback I’ve gotten for things that are pretty simple (and for which I’ve given very generous timelines) is unreal. And it happens because it’s been allowed to happen for decades.

      Tell her she’s being pedantic and that her job is much broader than she thinks it is, and that in no universe does a single job description outline every task one is expected to do, no more, no less. Her job is to update alumni information, whatever that means. It means that if an alum calls and says, “Oh, I changed my address,” then it is HER JOB to enter that into the database.

      I wish you much fortitude. If she cries or yells (you don’t indicate that she will do either, but the people in my situation would), then deep breaths until she stops.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Yeah, it’s the same thing for me – it’s happening because it’s been allowed to happen! None of her supervisors has ever pushed back on her before. I get the sense that they’ve been so confrontation-averse that it was easier for them to just do whatever they were asking her to do themselves than to argue with her about it.

        I fully agree that it’s her job, and now I have it in writing. If she’s going to talk about what is or is not in her job description, I’m going to happily wield it in any discussions in the future.

        Thanks for the well-wishes. She’s not likely to cry or yell, just dig in her heels. Which is its own kind of “fun.”

    2. Little Beans*

      Wow. I don’t know how Betty’s attitude is normally but it seems awfully insubordinate to insist that you don’t have to do something your boss has asked you to do because it is not literally typed out in your job description. It would be one thing to say that you’re swamped with other tasks, or want to discuss priorities, but it doesn’t sound like that is the case here.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        You’re right, that wasn’t the case at all – it was her straight-up saying it wasn’t in her job description. Apparently this sort of “not in my job description” argument has happened in the past with her previous supervisor.

        When I told my husband about this he was livid, and also used the word “insubordinate.” I don’t disagree, but I’m trying to ease in to Betty’s having to deal with me being a boss who won’t let her get away with everything like her previous bosses did.

        As an example of this, Betty would routinely tell her previous boss “I’ll be off on Friday” in team meetings on Monday, and that would be the first he was hearing of time off. She never asked for time off, just announced it, and she is in a role for which we need to make sure that there’s coverage if she’s out. Her previous boss just let it happen and never pushed back. This is one of many bad habits of Betty’s I’m going to have to break.

        1. WellRed*

          Based on this and her “it’s not my job” comment, I think it’s time to start a Betty documentation file because I don’t think she’s going to like the new, perfectly reasonable, environment. I assume she’s a lifer, coasting along until retirement.

          1. rageismycaffeine*

            I think you’re right – goodness knows that’s not unusual for state university employees.

            She may decide retirement is in the cards once she realizes I’m not going to let her wear the pants in this relationship.

    3. Spool of Lies*

      The gall! Stories like this always shock me because it has literally never occurred to me to outright refuse to do things my direct managers/supervisors ask me to do.

  49. VictorianCowgirl*

    Hi all, I’d like to post a question: how do you know when to fire a client whose business is not performing well? I am a non-profit accountant and one of my clients is just hemorrhaging cash, needing infusions from the director several times a month (this also creates a conflict of interest). This client is my “tax” income so I save their fee in advance of filing taxes. I don’t want to lose 10% of my income however this client is also far more high maintenance than any of my larger accounts.

    How do you know when to draw the line?

    Many thanks in advance! Happy Friday.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      When a client of mine starts driving me bananas, I try to really get it down on paper: how much work am I doing for them (including how much space they’re taking up in my head) versus how much they are paying me. Then I have two choices. One, I can try charging more to make it worth the bananas (“dear client, the firm’s rates will be rising to $xxx/hour on Date, two months from now”), which is a win-win: maybe they’ll pay me the higher rate, or maybe they’ll fire me. The second choice for me is just to fire them. I have a couple of go-to scripts for firing a client, but they boil down to “sorry, after Date I will be unable to continue working on your file, here’s a couple of referrals, let me know where I should deliver your paperwork.”

      The take-away for me is that I don’t have to give the client a reason. It is business — but my reasons are none of their business, if that makes sense. You don’t have to soft-pedal “My rates are going up” or “I’m no longer working for you,” though of course you should inform them with professional language and according to whatever rules your licensure authority has in place. You have made the decision based on what you need for your business, and they don’t actually have any standing to give you input or influence the decision, so don’t give them an opportunity to give it.

      Good luck!

      1. VictorianCowgirl*

        Ok, thanks for that advice; I do track my hours but never check them. So on this client today I’ve discovered that I only make 1/3 of the $ I do per hour of work with my other clients. So that answers things. I will up the price and let them go if they don’t agree. Not being a great sales person, that can be scary, but hopefully I can find an even better client in their wake. Thanks for giving me another way to look at it!

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          You’re welcome! Some clients, if you give ’em an inch, they’ll take a mile. One of the biggest challenges when you’re working for yourself is to stay on top of how much you’re working for every dollar you earn — you’re not on a flat salary and you don’t have a supervisor prioritizing your tasks, it’s just you. But the good news is that it’s 100% quantifiable and it’s 100% reasonable to ditch a client who’s essentially, as you’ve seen, paying you only 1/3 what your other clients are paying.

  50. Pam Beesly*

    How can I handle a coworker asking when my husband and I are going to have kids when it’s a sore spot?

    After almost a year of trying, my husband and I finally got pregnant last month. Sadly, I miscarried shortly after finding out. Now, a month later (to our surprise), I’m pregnant again. However, after some blood draws earlier this week, I’m being told this might not be a viable pregnancy AGAIN based on my levels.

    Fortunately, this coworker has been traveling for work for a while, so I haven’t had to see her for a couple of months. However, I know the question will inevitably come when she’s back in the office (she’s here about 3-4x/month, and has asked me every single time she’s been here for the past 5-6 months).

    This was a hard question for me to answer when we had been trying for months with no success. I’d try to cheerily say, “oh, we’re just enjoying traveling and freedom right now!” (we’re only 25 and 26 years old!) Now that I’ve miscarried and might miscarry again though, I feel like this will be even more difficult when she brings it up (I tend to be an emotional person). Even if I say, “Please don’t ask me again”, she won’t stop – it’s not in her personality. Knowing her, she’ll only continue to pry and say, “why are you being secretive about it? Are you pregnant? You’re pregnant!”

    I’m dreading her coming into the office again. I know Alison has said time and time again what an inappropriate question this is. I hate that I (and so many others) have to deal with this.

    1. Four lights*

      Don’t be afraid to turn into a broken record if you have to. {quotation mark} I’ve told you repeatedly that I’m not going to answer that question {quotation mark} remember that you’re not being rude or weird she’s the one that’s being rude and weird by repeatedly asking you about it after you told her not to.

    2. TheOtherLiz*

      I’m sorry, how rude and thoughtless of her. How firm have you been in the past? Have you ever looked her in the eye and said, “Jane, I need you to stop asking me constantly about something so private and personal. It’s not something I would discuss outside my marriage and I would rather talk about something else.” You could also stare at her, say, “are you REALLY asking such a personal question again?” and then write her an email laying out that you dread each time she asks you about this and that you won’t be talking about your fertility with her. In case it’s easier to say over email. The sage advice I’ve seen on AAM about having a reasonable reaction of shock/surprise when someone says something completely inappropriate, rather than taking on the burden of making it less awkward when the awkward is ALL their fault.

    3. Anona*

      Ugh. I also had fertility issues, and would also dread this question. After my miscarriage, I’d just lie and say no if asked if I was pregnant, even when I was.
      For the “are you having kids” question I considered telling people, “wow, that’s a really personal question! You shouldn’t ask people that”. I have told friends who I’ve heard ask other friends about whether or not if they were having kids that they should never ever ask that question.
      But I hear you on the people who won’t take a hint and keep doubling down. I would just say there’s probably not a perfect thing to say. But it’s ok to not respond. If it’s awkward, it’s because she’s making it awkward because she’s asking an awkward ass question. If you really don’t want to talk about this, you could tell her once that it’s a really personal question, and you don’t want to discuss it at work. If she keeps asking, you could say something like “like I said, it’s personal, and not something I want to discuss at work. Why are you so focused on this?”. And consider saying something to her manager/hr (“this is really uncomfortable for me to bring up, but helen keeps asking if I’m planning to have kids. I’ve told her it’s a personal question that I don’t want to talk about, but she keeps asking. Can you get her to stop?”

      I know you are in such a tender place and probably don’t want to make a stink. Whatever you decide to do is ok. My thoughts are with you!

      1. Ann Perkins*

        I agree that saying something to her manager or HR would be appropriate if she doesn’t stop.

      2. VictorianCowgirl*

        Absolutely, this is gendered harassment and HR could definitely be notified if she doesn’t stop after a clear “will not discuss” conversation.

        OP I’m so sorry she’s putting you through this and adding this stress to an otherwise really hard time. My best wishes for you.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I’m so sorry for your losses and that you’re having to deal with this. A few routes you could go, depending on your comfort level and personality –
      1 – avoiding her. Keeping door shut, ear buds in, whatever you need to do. If you have a sympathetic manager, give them a heads up.
      2 – vagueness. It sounds like this might not be as effective with her but hopefully after time it will. “Wow, what a personal question. How was travel to X?”
      3 – telling her at least indirectly what’s going. “This is a painful topic for me due to medical issues and I need you to stop asking about it.”

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      After repeatedly saying “please don’t ask me again” and getting the question over and over, frankly I’d yell, “Stop asking me! I’ve told you to quit asking me, but you keep doing it. Stop it!”

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I could see myself doing this. Though I might go one further. Since you know she’s going to ask next time she sees you, as soon as you see her pull her aside and say something like “Please don’t ask if I’m pregnant. You always ask and I don’t want to discuss it. When I have news to share I will let you know. Until then, I’m not going to discuss it.” Optional: “My uterus is not your business.”

        I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s so unbearably rude and she needs to be snapped out of this mindset that she’s entitled to this conversation with you.

      2. Michelle*

        Agreed. After you asked repeatedly and they just keep doing it, I don’t feel the need to be “nice” anymore.

      3. ket*

        I agree. Some folks see it as polite = can be ignored. If you can’t get out the whole sentence, you could move on to a slightly-louder-than-normal “STOP!”

        …as if you’re disciplining a puppy who keeps getting at the toilet paper roll. Maybe with a hand signal and a glare. That’s enough to communicate extreme displeasure and an unwillingness to discuss it further.

    6. Interplanet Janet*

      First of all, I’m so sorry for your miscarriage and for the stressful situation you’re in right now. Fingers crossed that things go well!

      I tend to be pretty forthright about this stuff, while keeping it kind. What about something like this:

      “You do know, right, that pregnancy isn’t just this magical thing that people can make happen any time they like? And that even when they do get pregnant, it doesn’t automatically mean a live baby for everyone? I’m not really up for going in to details, but suffice it to say that while I’m sure you’re not being hurtful on purpose, every time you bring this up, it’s painful for me.”

      or even: “Not so far … but [with sarcasm] thanks so much for bringing it up at work.”

    7. WellRed*

      I’m sorry. I don’t think you need to be nice about this. You could be much more upfront (Mind your own biz), you could make it awkward (You keep asking me about my sex life. Why?). You could also escalate because I feel like this is gender-based harassment (though to many it’s a perfectly innocuous question (though it’s really, really not)0.

    8. New Normal*

      I’m so sorry!

      For me, what’s worked best is a fast deflection. When asked when I’ll say something like “Not at the moment but last night boy-cat did the CUTEST thing!” Then describe it. In excruciating detail if necessary. Before cats I’d talk about our plants. Annoying people got shown pictures. I have an album with over 70 pictures of boy-cat sleeping in silly positions. I will happily to through EVERY SINGLE ONE if the person hasn’t yet excused themselves. It was a bit harder to show plant pictures but no one made it through the first three so that’s all you really need. It also helped when I acted like the kid question was really not very interesting or important to me but OMG look at these little shoots of spring mix! In a few weeks we’ll have salad!

      I don’t know if that helps – I wasn’t dealing with devastating news so it was easy for me to deflect without a bunch of emotions coming into play. It’s so invasive for her to ask at all and I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Showing plant photos until people cry “Uncle”?! You deserve a gold medal for Ninja-level deflection!!

      2. VictorianCowgirl*

        Lol I would totally look at all your plant and boy-cat pictures, then I’d show you mine (I have 53 plants indoors alone).
        This coworker sounds like a boor and a bit of a bully to boot. Who acts like that?

    9. Shiny Swampert*

      Quite honestly, if she doesn’t stop, I’d tell her the truth. But then all my work already knew I was pregnant before my miscarriage (at 17 weeks) and honestly it wasn’t the worst thing in the world (because, duh, losing the baby was that) because I didn’t have to worry about people speculating about what was going on (I was off sick for three months, and that was not long enough).

      I’m so very sorry.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree with this. If you try to ask her to stop with the scripts everyone else has offered, and you feel like you could make it through without losing it, the truth might be the only thing that can make her stop. “I’ve asked you to stop talking to me about when I’m going to have a baby because I’ve had multiple miscarriages and talking about getting pregnant is really painful for me. I’m going to ask you one last time to never bring this subject up again. If you do, I’ll have to involve (boss/HR/whatever entity in your office you’d report other forms of harassment to).”

        1. Anona*

          Ehhh, I personally wouldn’t have been comfortable with this. Post miscarriage, my work was a nice break. Since no one knew what I was going through, I didn’t have to have them ask me about how things were going. But it’s very personal! Some people do well with this approach.

          1. Shiny Swampert*

            It’s not a nice break when you’re constantly fielding questions about your reproductive status, though. I would tell her to get her off my frickin’ back, to help make it back into somewhere I didn’t have to think about it.

            1. Anona*

              Oh I totally support shutting her down! I just don’t know that this tactic would actually do that.

              1. Shiny Swampert*

                Oh, I understand. I guess it depends if she is a nice but misguided person or just a boundary stomper. Like I say, everyone knew about my miscarriage but I basically got sympathy cards from people I wouldn’t expect, no cards from people I would, and no one I wasn’t close to anyway actually talked to me about it. Obviously YMMV

    10. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Ugh, I think I would have to get nasty at this point. “Nosy Nettie. I have asked you repeatedly to stop asking me about pregnancy. It’s rude, it’s upsetting, and it’s none of your G-D business. Do not ever ask me about this topic again, do not accuse me of being secretive. Shut up and keep your nose out of my personal life.” And then walk away, preferably straight to your boss or HR.

      I don’t have kids and never particularly wanted them but man these stories piss me right off. Your fertility is none of her dang business.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        I like this. Cuts right through the arrogance and utter density.

        But I am so sorry for your miscarriage, Pam. It must be tough enough without having to manage Nannying Busybody. Thinking warm thoughts and well wishes for your current pregnancy.

    11. Double A*

      Any chance you can just burst into years when she asks you and return awkward to sender?

      I’ve realized that I do ask people about kids, but I’ve phrased it, “Do you think you want kids?” Which to me is more about your feelings about having kids. And I only ask once. And only if it came up organically. I hope that’s not hurtful.

      It’s just so bizarre to me that people would even ask if you’re planning to, because it’s really not something you can control.

    12. Hillary*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      I’m at that age where people often ask if I have plans for kids, and they won’t accept no for an answer. I reply “eh, we’ll see what happens” on repeat, and deflect to talk about how awesome it is to be an aunt and give them back if that might work.

    13. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Disclaimer: I’m not biologically female, nor am I female gendered.

      This sounds like a good opportunity for a flat , “My uterus is not up for discussion at work. Now, about [work-related thing]” once or twice.

      If your coworier persists, a serious/frigid, “I’ve told you my uterus is not up for discussion at work. This is now crossing into gendered harassment and I will talking to our manager about this.”

      Then TALK TO YOUR MANAGER. Do NOT let coworker talk you down. Take the nuclear option. Tell your manager, “My uterus and reproductive plans are not topics I am willing to have questioned at work. I told Coworker this and they continued to ask. I need you to make sure they stop, as this is becoming gendered harassment.” Escalate to HR, if needed.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Adding: I recommend NOT sharing why this topic is not up for discussion.

        1) It’s none of their business.
        2) It’s not your job to manage their feelings (curiosity/nosiness is a feeling)
        3) Don’t provide fuel for more questions.

    14. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      Next time she asks, ask her “why are you asking?”. You owe her no answer.

    15. Pippa*

      My tormenting coworker did not stop asking “are you pregnant yet” despite my telling her how painful a subject it was, how much trouble we were having, asking then directly telling her to stop asking me about it. She only stopped when she asked, again, in front of about six others and my reply was a raw snarl “No! I am just getting fat!”
      That morning I had started my period, another failed fertility round. She never asked again.
      Shut her down in a way that works best for you and share only as much as you want to share of your private details.
      Send her an email if that works best for you. She’s being weird. You professionally set your boundaries. Or snarl at her in front of colleagues…

    17. justathought*

      I’m sorry for your loss.
      Be firm and frank. Simply say something to the effect of “I’m not comfortable discussing personal matters. Please stop asking me that.”
      I once had a co-worker frustratedly tell me to stop asking/commenting about her lunch. She didn’t say it in a pleasant manner and it kind of stung. I didn’t even realize I was annoying her, just trying to make conversation in the lunchroom. I never did it again afterwards, that’s for sure. It didn’t really affect our working relationship. Best wishes.

  51. anon for this*

    Am looking for perspective. I inherited management of a small department (4 ppl) of remote workers who are located in an impoverished country where English is not the primary language, but these employees are expected to perform job duties in English. One of my responsibilities since becoming their manager is to try to help them improve their communication skills (spelling, grammar, etiquette).

    Three of them have consistently performed poorly over the last few months despite my attempts to review their work regularly and provide concrete, specific, actionable coaching. After talking my supervisors down from firing them right now (I am too overloaded to run the hiring cycle to replace them), I was given permission to draw up PIPs, with a rubric for me to track/score their work and a 60-day improvement deadline.

    My problem: my direct supervisor has told me to put all 4 workers on the PIP, whereas I think this is unnecessary–the 4th employee has made some minor mistakes but is consistently miles ahead of the others, and more importantly, has responded very well to correction–she never makes the same mistake twice, whereas the other 3 have a pattern of inattention to detail and consistently repeat the same errors.

    He thinks it would make things weird between the 4 of them if only 1 was not on a PIP. I think that the one trainable worker should not be punished along with the 3 underperforming ones. What would you do in my shoes?

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      It’s literally a “performance improvement plan,” and one of the four doesn’t need improvement, right? (Or at least, not the kind of improvement that the structure of a PIP is meant for.) Your supervisor is wrong on this one.

    2. Little Beans*

      Well I’m a little confused about how supervising PIPs for 3 employees is LESS work than hiring to replace them, but I certainly agree that the one good employee shouldn’t be on a PIP if she doesn’t deserve to be!

      1. anon for this*

        The PIPs are actually the same work I’m doing now between other tasks, just with much stricter tracking. Hiring would require me to dedicate larger chunks of time that take away from my other projects, whereas I’ve been fitting in supervisory stuff around that.

    3. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I agree with you. The three employees who need improvement should be put on an improvement plan. The one employee who consistently performs well, never makes the same mistake twice, and responds well to correction does NOT need a plan. Putting them all on a plan would be analogous to giving them all D’s on a test when, in fact, one one of them has earned a B+/A. It’s not right to do that and if I were the employee who didn’t deserve the PIP, I would be demoralized.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Demoralized, and I’d quit to let OP deal with the other three who actually deserves the PIPs on her own.

    4. Anono-me*

      If three people need a pip and you put all four on it, that’s going to create an unhealthy dynamic in the office also.

      The three people will feel guilty that the fourth one is on a pip unnecessarily. The fourth person will be rightfully livid at the three co-workers and you.

      Putting all four co-workers on a pip, when three of them need it, but the fourth one does not; will also create a situation where the pipnot be taken seriously or be assumed to be such a high standard that there’s no point to try.

    5. Not All*

      Your direct supervisor is incredibly wrong about this. Makes me wonder if he is opposed to the whole idea of having these remote workers & is trying to show his higher-ups that “see, it isn’t possible to get a single person from here to meet our requirements”.

      Putting all 4 on PIPs tells the good employee that there is no point in being a good employee…they will not be treated any differently than poor employees. If you DO end up needing to replace 3 of the 4, it is quite possible that that reputation for unfairness and treating your best employees the same as your worst employees is going to get around & no one you hire is going to bother putting in their best effort.

      1. anon for this*

        Thank you, this is what I’ve been trying to articulate about why we can’t put all 4 on a PIP!!

    6. Anecdata*

      Is it possible that what your higher-ups want is /the rubric/ for everyone (ie, a clear way everyone’s performance is being evaluated relative to the requirements of the job). This could actually be a good thing for your strong employee, if you can use it to justify retaining her, raises, promotion, increased responsibility, etc.

      Heck, even if your higher-ups don’t intend it, maybe you could structure it that way anyway.

      1. anon for this*

        This is great–I’m going to try to structure it this way! But upper management has made it clear that their goal is to fire at least 2 of the remote workers and that a third is on thin ice.

    7. willow19*

      No PIP for the good worker. PIP for all is exactly the opposite of trophies for everyone!

  52. Christina*

    Curious about people’s opinions on something I remembered from my old job.

    The managers/directors all had a holiday lunch at a local restaurant during lunchtime, paid for by the director. We also had an all-staff holiday potluck-ish thing. I (the dept admin) thought it would be fun to do a lunch outing for the staff-level folks (we paid for it ourselves, most staff were hourly and were back by the time their break was over). A few days later, my boss (the director) told me one of the managers heard about it and complained (I wasn’t hiding anything, it was on my and other staff member’s calendars) and I shouldn’t plan any other staff outings without management.

    That place was nutty in general, but looking back, I’m now wondering if that would have been on the line of NLRA/not allowing staff to socialize on their own time.

    1. Michelle*

      Sound like the manager that complained was nosy and upset that the “worker bees” had the audacity to do something without asking. What did they want you all to do- ask for permission to go eat at the same time, at the same restaurant, at the same table? Sounds like that manager sucked.

      1. Christina*

        The director and the manager sucked. The director should have told the manager to mind her own business and not told me to stop planning stuff for staff (she phrased it as if I had done something wrong to plan this lunch). The manager a few years later threw something (soft) at me when it wasn’t designed the way she wanted.

        1. Michelle*

          She THREW something at you?!? Oh, hell no. I don’t care if it was soft or not, throwing things at coworkers because you don’t like it is asshole-ish.

  53. I hate coming up with usernames*

    I’m feeling guilty about potentially quitting my job. I have a few interviews lined up at a new school. I’m pretty unhappy at my current one; the administrators have created a super lax problem that leads to tons of behavior problems, teachers not getting any support, and unsurprisingly, high turnover. But they’re sending me to an $800 training next week on a course they want me to teach this year. And if I leave, that means they’re left with no one who is trained to take this class.

    I feel pretty sure that I need to just do what’s best for myself/my mental health and my family. But I’m having some guilt – it’s a bad time of the year to quit, and I wish these openings had popped up earlier in summer, but that didn’t happen.

    1. laura*

      If they were doing their job properly, you wouldn’t have to leave. Take care of yourself.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Also, If they were doing their job properly, nothing would collapse disastrously if an employee has who has every right to leave… leaves.

    2. Michelle*

      People leave jobs all the time, even if they just went to training. If you are unhappy and not getting the support you need, you do need to do what is best for YOU. Would they feel guilty if they needed to terminate you?

  54. Shuri*

    Currently trying three career happiness strategies at once – anybody ever done something like this and have advice? Context: Been at my job for a few years. A few months ago I pitched a promotion to my manager and they’re vague and opaque and noncommittal whenever I ask for an update on the status of my request. Leaving me frustrated and looking to leave. So I’m applying for jobs in my field. I just got a phoen interview but the salary range caps out at what I currently make (which is below my market value) so that was a wash. And I’m ALSO considering a pretty massive shift to a totally different field, dipping my toes into doing it freelance part time while going to training programs in that field. It’s hard to motivate myself to do all three well at once – to keep doing my job valiantly, to keep churning out good cover letters, and to keep studying and diligently working towards career shift which might take awhile. It’s so tempting to jump ship from my current job, but I gotta pay the bills. Any advice?

    1. new kid*

      I would maybe see if you could narrow it down to two if at all possible. For example, if the priority needs to be getting out of your current role, maybe planning for the career shift takes a back seat to applying for similar positions to the one your in now and can then be picked back up once you’re in a new role? Or vice versa, if that makes more sense for your goals. Maybe the time line for a potential career shift could/would move up if you were able to focus on it more directly?

  55. First Time Freelancer*

    Hi friends! I recently transitioned from admin work to freelance copy editing and proofreading. As with most new freelancers, I’m always looking for new assignments and clients. I’ve been mainly looking via Upwork and recently joined Prompt and ACES, but do any more experienced editors have suggestions for other assignment sources?

    1. 867-5309*

      Upwork gigs notoriously pays freelance talent horrible. Check out temp agencies to get you started, and if you’re in a large market like NYC, there are dozens (hundreds) of freelance copy editing gigs.

    3. Asta*

      Really you want to be networking and making contacts who can offer you work or recommend you, not looking on these sites that pay badly.

    4. Little Miss Cranky Pants*

      Editorial Freelancers Association. They send out almost daily job listings from companies and private parties looking for editorial assistance. The EFA’s policy is *not* to promote low-paying gig type work. They use standard professional rates.

  56. MikeeBeth*

    I work part time at Library 1 and part time at Restaurant and I hate working at Restaurant. About two weeks ago, I applied for a part time job at Library 2 and I applied for a full time job at Library 3 yesterday. I have been working at Library 1 for 15 months and Restaurant for 10 months.

    My background has 9 years combined experience in libraries (academic and public) and customer service (libraries, retail, and food service). I have had a total of 6 part time jobs in the 5 years I have lived in my current area, almost always having at least two jobs at a time. The longest stay on my resume was at a public library from 2010 to 2015 and since then my longest stay has been 2 years.

    So my question is if I’m offered the full time job, will it look really poorly on my resume to leave after just a year here at Library 1? Or does that not matter so much since most of my jobs have been part time anyway? My boss at Library 1 knows and is understanding but what about in the future? If I get this full time job I expect that I’ll stay for a while. I have worked at Library 3 part time in the past and really enjoyed it so I can see myself being there long term.

    Also of concern is that since I applied for Library 2 two weeks ago it’s possible that I could get an offer from them before I even hear from Library 3. I haven’t heard from 2 yet, but at this point it’s still possible. I know for a fact I won’t hear from 3 for at least two to three more weeks and I imagine the whole process will be slower since it’s a full time job.

    Finally, my biggest concern about Library 2 is that they require 2 weekends a month. I had to quit Library 3 to begin with because Library 1 began requiring me to work every Saturday (which has made finding a second job a HUGE pain). It’s not clear from the job ad if it would be completely necessary to work Saturdays. I’m definitely going to ask, but should I bring it up right away when they first call? Or should I wait until after the first interview when I’ve had a better chance to demonstrate my candidacy? It is a dealbreaker. I’m a librarian at Library 1 and make more than I would at Library 2, and it’s not a librarian position. I have absolutely no leeway at Library 1 on Saturdays.

    Sorry for the long post, I’m sure like most people my mind goes into major overdrive when job searching!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m afraid I’m not 100% sure what question you’re asking. There’s a lot to parse there. Here’s what I got: You have a 4 year stint on your resume, that’s a long time. You have a two year stay, that’s not bad. But I do think 6 jobs in 5 years is a lot, so you may want to think carefully about the length of your stays. However, leaving part-time for full time would make total sense to everyone and I can’t imagine anyone finding that decision odd. Also, remember you can leave things off your resume if they aren’t helpful to your candidacy. It’s a marketing document.

      If you get an offer from Library 2 before you hear from Library 3, your choices depend on if you had an interview already with Library 3. If you already had an interview, you can call Library 3 and simply say, “I have another job offer, but I am extremely interested in this position, can you give me some idea of your timeline?”

      What you can not do is take the job at Library 2 and then leave two weeks later for Library 3. Librarian’s gossip and word will get around and your reputation will take a serious hit. Frankly, since it doesn’t sound like either of these have given you an interview, you might be worrying about something that isn’t worth the mental energy.

      As for questions about scheduling, you can ask during the phone screen or at the end of the inperson. It will depend on how strictly the job ad was written and I have no way of knowing that from here. I wouldn’t find scheduling questions at all inappropriate for a part-time job.

      1. MikeeBeth*

        I’m asking 3 different questions while also trying to clear my mind a bit. I am fully aware that I am definitely overthinking this situation! :) I’m getting antsy waiting to hear from Library 2 now that it’s been two weeks from the application deadline. I do realize that’s not very long, but still. And you’re right in gathering that I haven’t had an interview at all yet so I’m probably worrying too much about timing. I would really hate to take the part time job then find out they’re really interested in me for the full time job and that’s my biggest fear.

        To clear up the scheduling, the exact words in the posting are: “Schedule can be flexible, up to two weekends per month required.” So not terribly specific. Thanks so much for your answer!

    2. Morning reader*

      It’s probable that Library 2’s “weekends” requirement includes Saturdays, for at least one of the 2 required weekends. I don’t think it would hurt to inquire when you get an invitation to interview. You’d save time and effort if it’s a dealbreaker for you.

      If it doesn’t require Saturday’s, and you get an offer from L2, depending on where you are with Library 3, you could slightly delay or negotiate for a few days waiting to hear from L3.

      I don’t think the short time at L1, given that it is part time and your next position at L3 will be full time, will be a detriment to your resume or career. I’ve done hiring in libraries (although not for librarians) and I wouldn’t blink an eye at the part- to full-time transition. Good luck!

      1. MikeeBeth*

        That’s what I’m afraid of (Saturdays required). I’m honestly pretty skeptical I’ll get the full time job anyway. The library job market is pretty saturated in my area, being in a city with a well-known MLS program. There are always lots of internal applicants for the full time positions at Library 3, as it’s a large exemplary library with a limited number of full time positions. So I’m probably worrying for no reason, but I want to make sure I’m prepared anyway. Thanks!

  57. Kat Maps*

    I’m here for some outside input, and I appreciate what anyone might be able to offer.

    I’m currently in a contract with a non-profit which I have no guarantee of still having in about a year. I’ve been with this org for about 3 years now. I work from home, and I love that aspect of the job. My hours are extremely flexible, I’ve been able to travel a lot more with the flexibility, and it’s been good for my mental health. Additionally, my partner will be having fairly invasive surgery later this year and will require fairly hands-on care for the first bit of recovery time. Working from home will be great for me during this time.

    The problem is that I’m *SO BORED*. I know my manager is pretty busy, but she’s gotten terrible at answering emails or calls. I have so many projects in limbo waiting for her approval to move forward. I’ve followed up with some, still left with no response. She does email me with her own things which I reply to very quickly. But I’m finding that since she’s not actually getting back to me with anything that I need input on, I’ve just kind of…stopped working in a productive way. I’m frustrated and it’s coming out in my work and interactions with coworkers.

    So I’m at a crossroads. I’ve applied for a couple jobs, but all of them have been in-office positions. I’m nervous about transitioning back from working at-home to an office environment. I feel guilty leaving the org I’m currently in right before I know they’re going to have a busy couple of months. But I’m also so bored, frustrated, and in need of change.

    Can anyone give me some insight on having make the transition from work-from-home to an office environment? Should I stick this out for a few more months until after my partner is done recovery? Or should I just dive head-first into applying for jobs now, knowing sometimes it takes a while for anything to come of it?

    1. Way to the Dawn*

      I can’t say anything about the work from home to office switch as I just did the exact opposite! But I always encourage people to just start applying to jobs as soon as you can. It may take a while and you may miss a great opportunity if you wait longer. There is no harm in applying!

      Also, I left my job because I was also bored out of my mind and wasn’t really in the field I wanted to be. I already feel much better in my current job so it was definitely worth it. It did so much for my mental health. Best of luck to you!

    2. Auntie Social*

      Have you thought about regular in-office meetings so your projects stay in track? Even a lunch with manager? You know what she’s bad at, so start doing work-around to get your problem solved.

    3. Pam*

      With your husband’s surgery approaching, you may want to look more positively on being bored for a bit. If you change jobs prior to surgery or during his recovery, you may not have the time to help him.

    4. Crabby Patty*

      I wouldn’t worry about your timing if you decide to leave. While that may be easier said than done, especially if you are fond of the people you work with and for (what you describe notwithstanding), you have to do what is right for you.

    5. Transitioned-ish*

      I’m not even trying to guess at what the projected recovery time is, but it does sound like you being at home with a job in stasis _could_ be what needs to be for the time being for your partner. But yes, do start applying to jobs as you said.

      I recently moved on from a boring, on-the-brink-of-developing-terrible-work-habits position I’d had for several years, that used to be wonderful and then just became…blah. Changes in leadership contributed to this. I was highly regarded…but underpaid and my boss wouldn’t promote me despite proving year over year that I was actively doing higher-level work. I also wasn’t sure anymore if my position would still be viable into next year, or I would be asked to Do Other Things or suddenly become one of the terse HR emails of being wished well in my future endeavors.

      I had a lot of work-from-home flexibility, though. I could wake up and decide to stay home and not even tell anyone, and nobody ever noticed. Otherwise, I’d wake up hating to have to go into work.

      So the way I handled my job search was realizing I had nothing to lose. Sure, I was bored–but it was a job, there were good points, I didn’t have an air of desperation wafting off me, I could afford to be choosy. I also knew going in that I might not find such blatant flexibility in the area/positions I was looking at–my old company was unusual in that regard–and I was prepared to give up some of it.

      When an excellent opportunity came along, I stuck up for myself and asked for exactly what I wanted during negotiations. I was prepared to walk if we couldn’t find a compromise. Well, we reached one! I gave a little on my previously extreme flexibility in exchange for feeling alive and challenged again at work, with good people and a good mission. So I do recommend asking for what you want after you get an offer, and of course get all amendments in writing.

      And I also went on Poshmark and got a few pieces of good quality, highly discounted clothing for the office culture. :)

      Good luck to you and your partner!

  58. Layoff Laments*

    Looking for guidance on severance packages as I’m experiencing my first layoff. Does the equal work, equal pay theory apply in this realm? If a teammate with the same title and role was offered a larger package, do I have any leverage with which to negotiate for the same package? The company policy says they offer via “a uniform and equitable system”, and while I know what’s on paper is different from what’s actually practiced, I’m wondering if that is something I can point to if I were to negotiate? Or is that not enough of a reason and I should just leave it alone? Thanks for any thoughts or advice. I’m lacking the experience to know the best way to move forward.

    1. Ali G*

      Typically a company has a policy for severance when layoffs occur and everyone is treated the same. They usually follow one of a handful of models:
      1. 1 week of pay per year of service (sometimes capped)
      2. A set amount of salary post-layoff (so, for example, you get 6 months of pay – either lump sum or paid over 6 months after you last day)
      3. Some will payout vacation in addition
      So typically you can’t compare yours with someone else, since it’s based on a specific formula. Hope that makes sense/helps/. Sorry you are going through this!

      1. Layoff Laments*

        Thanks for your response any sympathies! I realize I left out key info here, as I agree with what you stated. The more specific confusion for me seems to have nothing to do with the models used.

        Per law, we were each given 60 days notice from our last day of work. The colleague was given an additional 6 months. None of the other team members were given that. I recognize the years served calculations, but this payroll part seemed to have nothing to do with it, as there is at least one person who served more years than her. But maybe I’m still looking at it wrong?

          1. Layoff Laments*

            Good point! She seemed very shocked by the offer, but it’s a possibility. Or maybe something she negotiated prior to the layoff, since we knew it was coming and we could tell we would be affected.

        2. Ali G*

          Oh interesting. Was the individual who received the extra payout at a higher level than the rest of you? That might explain the extra benefit.
          One thing that might also be a consideration are protected classes. In the US, people over the age of 40, women and minorities are considered protected classes under employment law. If you look at the overall demographics of the people who are being laid off, is there something that sticks out about this person? It might be that they got extra compensation in exchange for signing a contract that they will not sue as a protected class.

          1. Layoff Laments*

            Those are good questions and I racked my brain about that too. She is the most senior by age, but not by years served. The next person is close in age to her. They are both above 40 years and women. My guess is she got the extra months in order to trigger her retirement benefits, as that was something she was very concerned about.

            I’m very happy she got it and wish her the best. But I can’t help thinking this isn’t “uniform and equitable” per the policy.

        3. Interplanet Janet*

          This doesn’t sound to me like an extra benefit. It sounds like her layoff is just delayed by 6 months. Maybe I’m misunderstanding?

          I wonder if they just need one person to stay in that position for the next 6 months, after while they feel they can do without it. So they just picked one person to stay longer.

          1. Layoff Laments*

            Thanks for your thoughts! That would make sense if they asked her to stay, but her last day officially in the office was the same as the rest of ours.

            1. Interplanet Janet*

              Ah, see, I did misunderstand. I was reading the word ‘notice’ as time you’d actually be working. So you got 60 days before your last day and she got 8 months before her.

    2. Kathenus*

      When I was laid off a number of years back the severance was one week of pay for each year at the organization. So it wasn’t equal for each position, but instead equal for duration of employment. Been there, done that, and I know it sucks, so I’m sorry. I will say, though, that in the two organizations I worked at that had significant layoffs the folks who stayed in some ways were worse off than those laid off. Best of luck.

      1. Layoff Laments*

        Thanks for the response and sympathies! I left some key info out and realize it is confusing everyone. I replied with the additional info in the first comment above. Thank you!

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      Yeah, seniority often has a lot to do with how severance is calculated. More years of service usually translates to a bigger payout.

      At one big company, I got an extra stipend that was designated as being for job hunt help specifically because I was over a certain age (35?)

      I would guess it’s almost certainly NOT something you can negotiate. At most you could ask about the formula and check to make sure their calculation for you is correct.

      1. Layoff Laments*

        Thanks for the response and sympathies! I left some key info out and realize it is confusing everyone. I replied with the additional info in the first comment above.

        Interesting about the extra stipend, glad that some companies think about things in that way.

        That’s a good idea about asking about the formula.

  59. Lilly102*

    Hi,

    I wanted to put this put there for any who need encouragement. It took me almost two years as a recent college grad to find a job. I had a strong resume and followed all the advice on this blog and any other non-crazy advice I was given. I know many other recebt grad with similar experiences ans I just wanted to say, just keep going and applying. There was no change to my search strategy, resume, or interview skills that immediatly lead to landing a job. You can do it! Just keep swimming!

    1. Layoff Laments*

      Congratulations! This is really encouraging. I’ve been mentoring a new grad who is disheartened by the responses she’s been getting and the choices she has had to make in order to take care of herself. I’m sure she’d appreciate your encouragement.

    2. SciDiver*

      Congratulations on the job! I was in a similar boat and it’s awful, but getting that first job really does make things easier the next time you have to search. Good luck to anyone who’s dealing with a disappointing job hunt, keep on swimming.

    3. JobHunter*

      Thanks, your comments are uplifting! And congratulations!

      I am two years into my job search. Some of my experiences has been just…bizarre. I could use a win, and soon.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        “Bizarre” is so accurate. I was unemployed for most of 2015 and went on a dozen in-person interviews. Most were – or, at least, seemed – pretty normal, but I encountered some really odd behavior, including a search committee member who said she was on a health kick and so decided we would take the stairs in a 14-story building during the whole time we were in the building on interview day; the search committee chair who reemed me for asking for clarification on a question I’d had; and the argument that broke out among members of a panel while they were supposed to be interviewing me. Then there was the general rudeness, as well as the lack of support for assisting me on technological issues organic to a particular computer that the IT guy wished me “luck” with for my presentation. Still deciding when the right time is to write a piece about the sheer lack of professionalism of some interviewers and committees.

  60. Anise*

    I’m planning to quit my job soon. My new job is lined up but flexible on start date (probably late August to early September), so I’m trying to figure out when to give my notice. A few confounding factors: next week, I’m taking 3 days off. Better to give notice before I leave, or right when I get back? Also, there’s another person in a (support/admin) role similar to mine who we suspect will be let go soon. If management knew I’d be leaving, they might keep him on to avoid having absolutely no one supporting the department. (I genuinely don’t think he’s a bad employee, but budget cuts + a few minor performance issues + some things we’ve overheard are making us suspect this.) What’s my responsibility here?

    2. Bear Shark*

      I’d give notice after you get back if you think there’s any chance they will cancel your 3 days off. Some employers have policies disallowing PTO during leave periods but that might be less of an issue if you’re planning to give more than 2 weeks.

      Your responsibility is to yourself. You suspect the other person may be let go but even if you give notice earlier management could still decide to let them go.

    4. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Give notice when they let the other guy go, and watch them running after him onto the parking lot begging him on their knees…

  61. Leaving through the window*

    I am currently on maternity leave. I’m supposed to go back to work in two months, but we have decided that I will be staying home. How can I approach this with my employer? Before I went on leave, she had hinted that if I wasn’t coming back, I would need to give a month’s notice. I wouldn’t be the first in my department to not come back, but I do feel bad for some reason in doing so.

    1. Ann Perkins*

      Give notice like you normally would but make sure you are crystal clear on your benefits terms before you do. Many employers require you pay back your portion of health insurance or other benefits if you don’t return to work after leave.

    2. NopeNopeNope*

      If you know you aren’t coming back, talk to your manager ASAP and loop them in. Depending on your employer, you might lose your insurance benefits back dating to your last day in the office. If that is the case, you can get around this by coming back for your notice period.
      Don’t do what my old coworker did:
      She called at 6am the day she was scheduled to return to work and left a message with her “great-grand-boss” that she wasn’t returning from maternity leave.
      Refused to take any calls from her manager (who was trying to figure out where the hell she was since the person she called never interacted with her and was out of town on business) or coworkers and outside of that voicemail message ghosted us. Company listed her date of separation as her last day in the office (4 or 5 days before her delivery and those days were no call no show) so her health coverage was cancelled effective that last day.
      Yes its a slight shitty thing to do but I also know the company really tried to be as flexible as possible with her knowing she was pregnant at the time of interview & hire. She was 5 months along when she started here and as it was her 3rd child she was showing.

      1. WellRed*

        So she probably had a bunch of bills that wound up retroactively not being covered by insurance? What the hell was she thinking?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Hopefully, her partner had good insurance she and the baby could be covered under because yikes, childbirth is expensive.

          1. valentine*

            Yes its a slight shitty thing to do
            It’s completely appalling and the number of children (that you know about) doesn’t matter.

            1. Crabby Patty*

              It’s also shitty to quit on the spot and then ghost people, especially when they’ve been flexible and accommodating.

              That said, it wouldn’t be an issue if we’d uncouple health insurance from employment, although that’s a different conversation, I suppose.

  62. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Today is my last day at this job!
    I got a position at a place nearer my home, so the commute is going to be significantly shorter. The office is spacious, clean and comfortable and the computers are beefy up-to-date corporate babies. I’m going to miss my coworkers (except the owners and the team leader, who suuuuuck), but this is a good opportunity I couldn’t ignore. On the other side, there’s nobody to do my job at the moment, and apparently there won’t be for a while. But that’s something the owners have to solve, not me.

    3. Crabby Patty*

      Congrats! And now, kick back and enjoy the owners and team leader running around figuring out how to get the tasks and responsibilities of your now old job completed. Karma!

  63. Way to the Dawn*

    So I just had something happen that I would like some perspective on, as I really wasn’t sure what to do at the time.

    I recently quit my job in less than great circumstances – had to call the boss while they were on a three week vacation and give them my notice. My boss said some less than nice comments to me on my last day but I stayed professional and kind because I knew I put them in a not great position.

    Two weeks after that, and into my current job, my old boss texts me “So, are you ready to come back yet?”. It took me a while to respond because I had no clue what was the best way to handle it. I just said that I was sorry but I was loving the new job and congratulated them on a work achievement that happened after I left. Do you think that was ok? As a manager, would you ever send someone a text like that? It seemed very odd to me.

    1. Kat Maps*

      Frankly I think having your ex-manager send that text sounds bitter and unprofessional. I think your response was good considering the circumstances.

      1. Way to the Dawn*

        They were pretty bitter and unprofessional the day I left too. He made subtle digs at me taking a lower paid position throughout the day and “jokingly” said he hated me right when I was leaving the office for the last time. I just keep trying to stay professional so I don’t burn any bridges but it is hard not to be upset.

    2. LionelRichiesClayHead*

      I think you sent a perfect response to a very odd, unprofessional text. I think it also would have been fine to not respond, and I would probably take that stance if they continue to text you or text you again in the future. How odd and it sounds like you made the right move.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed. If FormerBoss texts you again with passive-aggressive BS, block their number. You (probably) don’t need that toxic energy in your life.

  64. Short Timer*

    Asking for a friend (but seriously, asking for a friend).

    She took a job about a month ago that isn’t a good fit, and she wants to start looking for a new one. Does she put this month-long job on her resume? If no, at what time (because this is probably going to be a long process) does she start to put it on?

    Thanks in advance, AAM commentators!

    1. CheeryO*

      No, definitely don’t put it on now. I think I’d put it on once I had some meaningful accomplishments that I could talk about in an interview, or whenever the employment gap starts to get large enough that it seems like people are getting turned off. I’m not sure I’d assign any firm timeframe to it, but maybe something in the range of 6+ months.

  65. Turtle Candle*

    Really silly question, and yet here we are!

    I was at a fancy work dinner with coworkers and clients, and got the hiccups. The kind that are pretty loud and difficult to conceal unless you silently hold your breath (and maybe not even then) and that might last a discreet two minutes or an obvious half an hour.

    In my position, would you excuse yourself (for an indeterminate time) or just sit there going “So, tell me about your HUC installation HUC”?

    1. Turtle Candle*

      (My instinct is to excuse myself but… given I don’t know how long they’ll last…)

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Excuse yourself, with a smile. “Oh goodness! Excuse me while I work this out.” If there’s a bar in the restaurant, go over there and get some water. But treat it with humor– don’t be embarrassed, because it’s just life. If the hiccups keep going after more than 5 minutes, go back to the table.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      My hiccups are LOUD and, even with 40 years of life under my belt I haven’t figured out a way to quiet them down other than keeping my mouth completely closed until they wear off. I would have to excuse myself.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Ditto, I have ridiculously loud and dramatic hiccups that literally bring tears to my eyes… I 100% would have to go somewhere else for awhile (and I have done that the 2 times I got them in the office! haha).

      2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        Same with me! I figured out a while ago that a spoonful of peanut butter takes them away, works every time.

    4. CheeryO*

      I’d excuse myself for a couple minutes and just try to be discreet if they don’t go away in that time. It’s not like anyone can judge you for having the hiccups! I actually think they’re kind of endearing, in a weird way.

    5. RandomU...*

      I would excuse myself.

      Then I would walk to the bar for the best hiccup rescue I’ve ever tried :) Lemon wedge with bitters that you suck on and then a glass of club soda also with bitters. (I have no idea why or how this works, but it’s the only thing I’ve ever had that cures hiccups without fail.)

      If you don’t want to try the cure, I would just walk to the bar for either club soda or a glass of water for a few minutes. If they didn’t stop, I’d return to the table after about 10 minutes.

      1. Reliquary*

        Former bartender here, confirming that the lemon (or lime) wedge with bitters cure has an unbelievable success rate. You don’t need the club soda afterwards, though! Carbonation can bring on hiccups quite easily for many people.

    6. HBJ*

      I’d probably just keep going and apologize and try to disguise them. But I also (I don’t know if this is unusual) will continue to get bouts of them multiple times off and on for the rest of the day after the initial hiccuping goes away.

  66. EggEgg*

    The question about titles earlier this week has me wondering–when I’m looking for my next job, would [System] Coordinator or [System] Analyst sound like a higher level role to a hiring manager? My current role is just a bit past entry level, but I still have one year left on my bachelor’s and will probably get a master’s after that (my plan is business analytics). I’m a Coordinator right now, but most of my job is analysis and reporting. I’m at a nonprofit, so I’m trying to be creative with things to ask for at my review because my agency doesn’t pay market and raises are standardized at 3%, and a title change might be doable. .

    1. Kat Maps*

      In my experience ‘coordinator’ has been a more entry-level title. ‘Analyst’ would denote a position a further down the line.

    2. Mindy St Claire*

      I think it depends on industry. I know in the industries I’ve worked in, Analyst is seen as the higher role. Have you tried looking at glass door to see what the average salaries for the two different titles are?

      1. EggEgg*

        I would, but it’s so field specific that I wasn’t sure. I was just at a conference talking to some folks about the trouble they’ve been having filling a role–basically, everyone with experience in this type of role is doing this work, so you have to hire someone and train them from absolute scratch or poach from another area.

        1. EggEgg*

          Sorry, I didn’t directly address what you said–I meant that as an illustration of how small the field is :)

    3. Way to the Dawn*

      I really think it depends on the field you are in but I think analyst is usually considered a higher role than coordinator. But in some fields like mine you may see analysts and coordinators at the same level.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      You should put whatever your job title actually is on your resume, unless it is weirdly cryptic. If it is weirdly cryptic, consider brackets. When I get ref calls, they often refer to the job title the person put on the resume, ie: Can you tell me about Bob, he was a Llama Groomer Analyst from 2013 to 2016?

      It will be red flag if I then say, “Bob was a Llama Groomer Coordinator, actually.”

      1. EggEgg*

        Oh, I definitely wouldn’t just change it on my resume–I think I have a decent shot at getting my title actually changed at my review, since the raises are so limited and I’ve blown past my benchmarks.

  67. Little Beans*

    Can I supervise someone I went on a few dates with? Many years ago, I went out on a couple nice but pretty uneventful dates with a friend from college. I think I was more into it than he was but nothing really came of it and we kind of lost touch. Then, a few years ago, we found ourselves both working at the same organization and grabbed coffee to catch up. He was married with a kid, I was dating my now-husband. Since then, we’ll chat when we happen to see each other at work events, which is only once or twice a year, and that’s the extent of our relationship. I just found out that this friend has applied for a position on my team. From everything I know about him, I think he’s likely to be a strong candidate. He didn’t reach out to let me know he was applying which I thought was a little odd, since he knows me and I’m almost positive he understands that I would be his supervisor. Is there potential to be weirdness in this situation? How cautious should I be, or am I totally overthinking it?

    1. MaryAnne Spier*

      I’m no expert but this really doesn’t sound like a big deal. It sounds like it was a long time ago, there are no hard feelings, and you’ve both moved on positively in your personal lives.

    2. RandomU...*

      This is something I’d have a conversation with your boss about. I’d want to know if a supervisor had a social/dating relationship with a prospective employee. It wouldn’t necessarily rule out the possibility, but it would get it out in the open and allow everyone (including HR) weigh in on it (especially if you have input into the hiring decision and/or things like performance appraisals).

    3. sacados*

      Agreeing with RandomU, I would probably mention it to your boss to avoid any potential misunderstandings (for example, boss hears something in passing about the two of you dating, gets the wrong idea and becomes worried). But just in the sense of “by the way, we are socially acquainted and went on a couple of dates many years ago but it’s in the past” sort of thing.
      In this case I don’t think it’s really any different than someone who you maybe used to be good friends with coming to work for you, and you just need to make sure to back off of the friendship and transition to a more manager/report relationship.

  68. Berry*

    How do you know if a new job is right when you still like your current job?

    I applied for a job about a month ago in one of those “I will kick myself if I don’t at least try” moments about a month ago – it’s a similar job to the one I’m doing now, but at one of the most well known companies in my industry. I’ve now made it through three rounds, 2 phone interviews and 1 two hour in person interview with four people. After the phone interviews I was excited to learn more and keep going and not pull out, but now I don’t know what to do if I am offered the job.

    I’ve been at my current job for about a year. It’s a startup type company, it’s kind of small but I have a lot of room to experiment and make my job what I want it to be. My manager is incompetent and frustrating, but my coworkers are great and supportive and really fun to work with. We have a lot of exciting projects in the works.

    The new position is at a big name company (which matters to me a little). It’s not quite the exact growth path I’m currently thinking about, but it’s adjacent enough I believe I can make a lot of great connections for future growth. There’s less room to experiment, but more people in the industry to learn from. Position wise it feels like a lateral move, though I did ask for at least 10k+ what I’m making right now (in the first phone interview, and they kept talking to me).

    How do I know how to make the right choice if I’m offered the job? I’m still early in my career and my last job hunts were all because of necessity, but I never expected to make it this far in my chance application!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I know this may seem like a dilemma, but you’re in the best position. A lot of people job searching are searching because they have to (spouse got a job or grad school elsewhere or current job is toxic). You’ve already asked for more money (they don’t know that, but you do), and if they offer, feel free to negotiate away. Maybe you can even ask for more “room to experiment”? If they say “No,” stay where you are. If you ask for the sky, and they give it, take it.

    2. MissGirl*

      Get really clear about what your priorities are. Commute, pay, growth, company size, risk, job security, etc. Do your due diligence about the new company. Know that each choice comes with its own problems. No one job is perfect. Don’t let fear of change make the decision for you.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I may be in a similar boat soon, with an okay job versus a job with potential. My plan:

      1) Write-up a list of all the benefits of taking the new job and all the disadvantages of taking the new job.
      2) Pick the top five benefits and rank them most to least important. If it doesn’t merit “top 5” status, it’s out. Repeat for the disadvantages.
      3) Make a decision for me based on the top 5 lists.
      4) Based on that decision, work out the worst case scenarios from choosing that, then write out a plan for how I can deal with them (i.e. the Stoics method).
      5) Inform the necessary parties about my decision.

  69. Psyche*

    A new coworker keeps calling me by another coworkers name and it is really bothering me. This has been going on for two weeks. I correct him every time and it doesn’t help. I know that this is basically something I just have to deal with, but I’m irritated.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Happens to me all the time. Along with misspelling my name (which is a slightly unusual spelling of a common name, but not THAT unusual). I think all you can do is keep correcting him. With a smile, if possible.

      Does he do this to anyone else?

      1. Psyche*

        Nope. Just me. Our names aren’t even similar. It is like if my name is Mary and he keeps calling me Jodie. Same last sound, but otherwise no where close. Previously I worked with people that had very similar names to mine and people got mixed up all the time (Mary, Maria, Marie). That didn’t bother me so much.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            This is how I’d deal with it too. As far as you know, he’s not addressing you. Make him make the effort to change.

        2. rageismycaffeine*

          Ugh. How frustrating. Do you and the coworker look anything alike? (In our office, the head of the department frequently calls our two younger, brunette employees by each other’s names. Not that that’s an excuse.)

          Do you know if he calls the other coworker by your name?

          1. Psyche*

            We are both white females, but other than that look nothing alike. He sometimes calls her by my name, but usually not.

            1. Close Bracket*

              Are you and Jodie the only two women? That’s all it takes for some people to call you by each other’s names. You morph into “the woman,” as though you are indistinguishable particles. You don’t even have to be the same age, race, or functional job title. You just become “one of them.” It might not be deliberately malicious, but it tells you a lot about the underlying mind set when someone can get dozens of men’s names right but not two women’s names.

    3. London Calling*

      I spent six months calling two colleagues by the other’s name. It was nothing to do with being a jerk and it wasn’t on purpose, I just for some reason had a brain fart each time I talked to X and called him Y, and spoke to Y and called him X, and I was mortified each time but couldn’t seem to stop. Why assume hostile intent until it’s proved? not everything is done on purpose to upset you.

    4. Forkeater*

      Maybe he’s a visual learner, can you wear a name tag when you’re around him? (Yes I’m being semi snarky but also semi serious.)

    5. Policy Wonk*

      I had a secretary who called me “Sue” for an entire year before she got my name right. She typed my name correctly multiple times a day, but in person I was always “Sue”. Because I looked just like someone she knows named Sue. I corrected here every time, and she was always apologetic, but it still took a year. Sigh. It happens. As long as it’s not intentional or mean-spirited, roll with it – but correct the co-worker every time.

    6. Wishing You Well*

      If he keeps this up, I’d casually mention it to your boss or his boss or HR. This is weird and not okay since he’s only doing it to you.

    7. justathought*

      How about a name necklace ala Carrie Bradshaw! Carry a souvenir coffee mug with your name on it. A super large “Hello…I’m —–” sticker name tag. Be creative and have some fun with it!

      In my senior year of high school math, a student happened to have a famous last name and the teacher called her the famous whole name (Think Mary Clinton being called Hillary, that sort of thing.) until the end of the year when she finally told him her correct name. It was the best thing all year in that class.
      Last week I called a friend of a friend I’ve known 20 years by his brothers name.

  70. Transit commuter*

    Going off the letter from yesterday about commuting issues. What is reasonable for a workplace to expect? One place I worked counted you late if you walked in even 1 minute late and gave you “points” (2 points if you didn’t call in, 1 point if you did, etc) plus took your annual leave (in 0.10 of an hour increments rounded up, so 1 minute late meant losing almost 2 minutes of leave). It was by department, so some departments had a leeway of 7 minutes or so, but my department didn’t. Since I took the bus, that meant that I couldn’t take the bus that normally dropped me off at work (literally across the street) 10 minutes early because maybe once a month they’d hit traffic and I’d be 1-5 minutes late. My friends in other departments all took this bus, but I had to take the one that ran 30 minutes earlier so that that once a month or so time, I wouldn’t be less than 5 minutes late. I really resented that extra 30 minutes of lost time, especially when traffic was light and the bus actually dropped me off early, because then I had to wait around outside the building for over 30 minutes, in the cold and dark. My work thought it was totally appropriate to expect me to give up that time, but didn’t pay enough for me to even go to the corner coffee shop to wait somewhere safe and warm.

    So the expectation that workers should just have to leave early and have wasted personal time, that’s just normal? Am I an entitled git because I resented giving up that extra sleep and time with my family for a job that wouldn’t pay me enough for small luxuries? I pushed back hard every time it came up – that the point system was unnecessarily punitive and that expecting us to be exactly on time with no grace was scrooge-like. They always responded “well, you get up to 16 points before we take disciplinary action, so relax about it.”

    1. Reba*

      Oh em GEEEE that point system is infantilizing, punitive, and just BIZARRE. Taking back your leave in MINUTES???? Who has the time?

      1. Transit commuter*

        It was insane. I was a legal assistant and after paralegals fought back about being salaried when we didn’t qualify a lot of the law firms responded in extremely punitive ways that still carry over. There was literally no reason we needed to be in our seats at exactly 8am, especially since none of the attorneys were.

        We were basically told that we just needed to plan better and being even one minute late even once a year was very disrespectful and we should be grateful to have a job. There’s a reason I’m not a paralegal anymore.

    2. CheeryO*

      Ugh, that’s ridiculous. Even a job where the start time is crucial should give you a minute or two leeway as long as it isn’t happening all the time.

      I have a butt-in-seat job where it doesn’t really matter what time I get in, but we’re expected to stick to whatever schedule we choose. The morning traffic patterns mean that I can either be 5-10 minutes early every day, or right on time most days, with bad days at 1-5 minutes late and the occasional really bad days at 10-15 minutes late. I choose the latter so I can get the extra few minutes of sleep. No one has ever said anything, but I’m also not one to take exactly my allotted 45-minute lunch or leave the second the clock hits leaving time.

    3. Catsaber*

      Not normal. Infantilizing and punitive. I worked a job like that – the director told us we had to be in chair, computer on and ready, at 8am – just IN CASE a professor called for tech support. We also couldn’t “rush out the door at 5pm” in case someone called close to 5pm. So we were required to come in early, but not allowed to leave early or take any extra time at lunch, and “encouraged” to stay later. The better solution for extended coverage would be to have people on overlapping shifts, so everyone could just work their 40 hours, and she wouldn’t have to worry about coverage. In truth, the director really just wanted us all to work 10 hour days without extra compensation, because she felt like it would make her look better.

      My current job, I arrive anywhere between 730-8am and then I leave at 430 pm, and typically take a 30-60 minute lunch. I always have to leave at 430 so I can pick up my kids, but my boss really doesn’t care as long as our work gets done, and we have a reasonably set schedule. Also I’m in IT and often we have to check systems on off-hours, so we get flexibility throughout the week.

    5. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      My last job had an electronic system where you swiped your badge to login and it also scanned your face to be sure it was you clocking in. The system was also used at the end of the day, as well as for the one daily break and lunch to clock out and clock in. There always lines to clock in and out, but they did have multiple scanners at convenient locations at exit doors and several at the break room.
      You are given three chances before you were fired if you clocked in late or left early without supervisors permission.
      It wasn’t uncommon to see people who were running through the parking lot to clock in the morning.
      The system was used for the hourly employees and the employer paid a starting wage of $20 an hour. The employer also provided excellent health benefits, vacation time and stock awards.

    6. xxx9*

      >”…in 0.10 of an hour increments rounded up, so 1 minute late meant losing almost 2 minutes of leave”

      Not sure of your workplace is coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs or just straight Nutter Butters because what. You are not being unreasonable at all, what a bizarre way of handling this. So if you are “one minute late” (which is…wow – up to 5 minutes should be reasonable, the expectation for you all now is get to work early to avoid even being one minute late) at 16 separate times in a year or 8 times in one year realistically (because who the heck calls in when they are ostensibly gonna be on time!) then you get the hammer? This doesn’t sound good for morale.

    7. Kate H*

      Good lord. At my job, the start time is 8:30. We’re allowed to clock in between 8:25 and 8:35. If we clock in at 8:36, we’re late. Doesn’t matter if it’s bad weather, stuck in traffic, construction (which, in the Midwest, tends to pop up completely without warning), or what have you. Doesn’t matter if you call in. Being late is an infraction. A new policy announced a few weeks ago is that three infractions in a month period is grounds for immediate termination.

      2. Avasarala*

        Sounds like a lot of people are going to be “immediately terminated” this winter….

    8. LGC*

      Your old employer was…very bad. I’m intentionally using understated language because the phrases I’d LIKE to use are definitely not work appropriate and might trip the moderation filter.

      In general, though, it depends! For somewhere that coverage is especially important (like a service type job – say, retail or working front desk)…yeah, you’re expected to be ready to go when your shift starts. However, I think that the multiple punitive measures (being hourly, giving disciplinary points, AND docking leave) are excessive in any case. And maybe I’m jaded…but I can’t see a reason that a legal assistant needs to always be at their desk and ready to work at precisely 8:00, and why you’d force them to wait outside until their scheduled start.

  71. NewGlassesGirl*

    Why are our summer interns asking me to print things for them? How do I get it to stop? I’m not their boss or their department. I make small talk by the coffee machine and become the de facto printer. :/

    *venting not an actual question lol

    1. NewGlassesGirl*

      Would appreciate though if someone could weigh in on if I used “de facto” properly

      1. Alice*

        Oh, finally a use for all those years wasted on Latin! Yes, I believe you used that properly :)

    2. Shuri*

      “Sorry, what? I have work to do but I’m sure your supervisor can help you figure out how to do that.”
      Or: “You know, I did that for you last time our of an instinct to be helpful, but that’s an odd request to make of staff.”
      Or: “Huh?? Is the printer not working for you or something?? You should talk to IT.”
      Or, send an email to the intern supervisors letting them know their interns are under the confusing impression that staff are here to print things for them, and you’d like them to course correct.

    3. CheeryO*

      Oof, I think I did this when I was an intern… I didn’t know how to install a printer on my computer and was too afraid to ask. It would be a kindness if you let them know that part of office culture is printing your own documents, and that they need to take it up with their boss (or IT, whatever is more appropriate) if they can’t do that.

    4. Catsaber*

      I get asked to do all sorts of random crap from people, and my mom says it’s because I look “helpful” (she also said it’s because I’m “cute”….sigh). So two suggestions:

      – cultivate your RBF
      – if someone asks, say some variant of “X can help you with that,” or “I don’t know, have you tried googling it?” Sounds like they need to be redirected to their supervisor.

      What sorts of things are they wanting you to print?

    5. RandomU...*

      That’s very odd of them to ask you.

      Of course our interns apparently haven’t figured out how to change the water cooler bottle… So maybe this isn’t all that weird.

      If it were me I’d just mention it to their manager conversationally… “Oh hey Fergus, wanted to give you a heads up I think Ida and Ian Intern are having problems with the printer. They keep asking me to print for them, not sure what’s going on, but they probably need help.”

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I’ve had plenty of interns who seemed to think I work for them! And sometimes don’t take it well when they learn that they are not the center of all things.

      In your case I would look at them in a puzzled way and ask why they can’t do it themselves. And then turn back to whatever I was doing.

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      You did use de facto properly.

      Have you printed for them in the past? If so, just say “Hey, I printed that last time to you as a favor, but that’s actually not my job. Do you not know how to print? If so, I can walk you through it, so you can do it for yourself.”

      If you’ve never printed for them, you can just use that last part (“Do you not know how to print? If so, I can walk you through it”).

      If you think even teaching them how to print is too much outside the scope of your job, you can just redirect them to IT or whomever they should actually get trained by.

    9. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Ah, I had to do that when I was a contractor. There was some sort of holy machinery cult that worshipped the printer and you had to be ordained at least level III priesthood and have the magic wand to get the printers to work. Us heathen unbelievers had to stay at least 10 yards of the holy printer lest it zapped us. Which was peculiar as we also couldn’t fll in the timesheets in the hallowed system, but had to fill in a printed sheet, one of the acolytes then typed in into the book of hours and we got our alms… Very peculiar these contracts sometimes.

  72. SciDiver*

    First full week of my new job: check! I love the people here, and it’s so much more functional than the mess at my last job. I work in a STEM field doing research, and holy lord the difference is immense. My last lab was full of grad students and they went through 3 research assistants in as many years (including me) because they had no interest in keeping us there and preferred to hire new people who wouldn’t see the dysfunction until after they started. New lab has no grad students and steady staff, most of the folks on my level have been here for a 3-5 years.

    It’s still sinking in that my old manager now has no power over me anymore: I have an amazing new job, I’m never using him for a reference again since I have another great manager from that job I can use, and even the threats to bump my authorship on the paper I’m writing unless I do X and Y as well…it’d be a hell of an uphill battle for him and I will absolutely report it to the journal. I’ve regained so much of my confidence and emotional stability since leaving and I have a network of people both in and out of STEM that are helping me through the petty nonsense of getting this paper submitted. Once it’s done I’m putting old manager’s emails through a filter so they never pop up in my inbox again!

  73. Alice*

    This week I had an interview with a hiring manager also named Alice. HR sent me an email meant for OtherAlice. I opened it with trepidation, thinking it might be AAM-worthy (“Recruiter Is Discriminating Against Me! She Makes Fun Of My Font Choice! Can I Sue?”) but it was just a copy of my resume. I am both disappointed and relieved.

    (The interview went well, by the way, OtherAlice loved me and wants to bring me in for an in-person interview. Still in job search hell but hopeful…)

    1. blaise zamboni*

      I love your AAM title ;) mishaps like that always feel like…I don’t know, overhearing someone talk about you on the phone in the next room. Highly scandalous, except that it’s usually not (thank goodness).

      Is this a role that you feel good about? if so, fingers crossed for you! And hopefully OtherAlice won’t insist that you go by Ally or your last initial or something equally asinine.

  74. What new life was I expecting to just happen?*

    I’m 6 weeks in to my new job and feeling like I’m letting myself down. I’m meeting what’s required of me from management. This isn’t an “imposters syndrome” thing, as such, but this is about failing to seek out new networks, step my game up, and figure out what I should be doing over and above my very basic job description to really make an impact, and to feel like the move was the right one for my career trajectory. My team is lovely but I’m yet to meet anyone else in the organisation, or wider networks.

    Yes, it’s “only” 6 weeks. I just feel a bit like I’m treading water while I try to find myself?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      It has only been six weeks, you’re still trying to get your bearings! No one can really make an impact that quickly, nor should they be expected to.

      You’re fulfilling management’s requirements, that’s honestly fantastic and you should feel good about that when you’re so new. Deep breaths, the rest of the stuff will come soon enough.

      Oh and congrats on the new job!

    2. Four lights*

      It’s natural at 6 weeks. If you want to step up your game you can certainly start now. You can come up with a plan and maybe pick one thing to work on over the next month or two

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a regular 6 week rut! You seriously are too new to know where you’re best efforts to go above and beyond are yet. I’m the same way, I spin wheels for the first 2-3 months in all jobs because of just getting your feet under you and get your ear to the ground to find the company pulse.

  75. Matilda Jefferies*

    Posting this on behalf of a colleague, Michelle. Michelle and I share the same manager, Cathy, and Michelle also supervises a team of llama grooming specialists.

    Cathy is one of those people who can talk your ear off, and will tell you the entire life story of her childhood best friend when you go to ask her a work question. She also does this in meetings – many meetings go wildly over time because she just keeps talking regardless of the agenda. Mostly I just put up with it, because it’s not the hill I intend to die on at work.

    But Michelle’s team is finding Cathy to be very disruptive when she comes to their meetings. Because of the nature of their jobs, they meet after the end of their usual work day, so there’s a real incentive to wrap up and get out of there as quickly as possible. Michelle has previously set the expectation that everybody needs to stay for the entire meeting, and of course it’s hard to interrupt or sneak out when your boss’ boss is speaking. Cathy doesn’t necessarily need to be at the meetings, but she seems to enjoy them.

    So. What to do? Michelle’s priority is to support her staff, and she doesn’t mind “managing up” to Cathy a bit. We don’t think it would be helpful to have a direct conversation with her, for various reasons. So we’re thinking the best option is for Michelle to be *really* firm about facilitating the meeting. She will most likely have to interrupt Cathy, to the point of clearly closing the meeting and actually leaving the room at the appointed time (and empowering her staff to do the same.) This feels aggressive, but it also feels like the only option.

    Does anyone have other ideas for managing a Chatty Cathy, when Chatty Cathy is your boss and you need to wrap up a meeting that she doesn’t even need to be in?

    1. Reba*

      I’d say yes to aggressive facilitating, and add a private convo with Cathy ahead of time, to give her a heads’ up. “It’s really important to my team’s function that these meetings are brief, so I’m going to start keeping a very close watch on the time and stick like glue to the agenda. So if I cut you off, that’s why!”

    2. Jerk Store*

      Can Michelle do a meeting agenda with a hard stop time of how long it should reasonably take? That way she can gently interrupt Cathy by saying, “We have 3 more items to discuss by 5:00/in the next twenty minutes so I’d like to move on to ___”

    3. Kathenus*

      Given the dynamics maybe the focus is on establishing and enforcing a hard end time for the meeting versus a strict agenda. It may be harder to get a boss to stick to an agenda from a subordinate role, but being the time manager for the meeting to enforce the end time might be more straight forward. Everything from – ‘just doing a time check, we have 10 minutes left before the end of the meeting, in case anyone wants to prioritize what we need to discuss in the remaining time’, followed up with other time reminders as needed and a hard stop at the meeting end time.

    4. Anono-me*

      A meeting coordinator, I know has a lovely system. If anyone wants to discuss anything unrelated, they get ‘asked’ quickly and firmly to table it for the post-meeting coffee. The post-meeting coffee is voluntary and it seems like most people do stay once every three or four meetings.

      Michelle could try implementing the post-meeting coffee, and ask Cathy for help in enforcing the unrelated issues to be discussed at post-meeting coffee.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      If she doesn’t need to be at the meeting, ask her to make some remarks at the beginning and as soon as she stops (or pauses as the case may be) thank her for coming, note that you understand her time is valuable and you will let her go as the topics to follow are below her rank. Have staff clap or in some other way acknowledge her departure, or maybe instruct someone to walk her out.

    6. Dancing Otter*

      The best way I ever found to force meetings to end on time was to schedule right *before* someone else needed the room. There is no hard stop quite so hard as a crowd of people peering through the window and knocking on the door.

  76. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    Why do managers decide to schedule cryptic team meetings? My office is in a kerfluffle because our uber boss and her boss scheduled a meeting with my division. It started out with the uber boss’s EA asking how many of us were in the office today and Monday and then a meeting invite that was titled “$Division Name Transition 2.0”. I’m betting that it is to announce that they hired a new manager for my division (ours left about 3 months ago) or are moving our desks somewhere or something completely innocuous, but the rest of my division freaked out. One person even was thinking of cutting her vacation short to come in for the meeting. Why keep stuff so under wraps? It has been distracting and stressing everyone else which in turn distracts me. Gah!

    1. Sam Foster*

      Details on transitions, etc. often aren’t complete until the last minute. The screw up here was calling the meeting that title. There are lots of generic ways to call an All Hands without making people freak out.

  77. MsChanandlerBong*

    I missed yesterday’s thread on titles, and I wish I hadn’t. I’m going to be looking for a new job in about a year (I have to get some things in order before I start looking, such as putting away money in case my boss lets me go if he finds out I am searching), and I think my current title is going to be a problem. It’s not a title that means anything anywhere else. We’re also a small company with a flat hierarchy where everybody basically pitches in and does what needs to be done. I supervise a full-time employee, manage a team of contractors, do editing and proofreading, write marketing materials, recruit new people/respond to HR queries, do technical writing/documentation (i.e. writing manuals when we release a new product), and so forth. My title does not communicate the level of responsibility I have, either. Is there anything I can do now to get ahead of this problem when I am ready to job hunt?

    1. foxing in the stacks*

      Can you do a BRIEF expansion of your title? That’s what I’ve done – my field is high on the list of “painfully vague job titles.” Officially every professional job I’ve held, my internal HR title has been “Librarian”. But my roles have been incredibly different and I have less formal, more descriptive titles within my departments. So my resume looked something like this on my last hunt (how many lines this takes up depends on how much info you need to share/space you have):

      Librarian | University of Teapots 2010-present
      Special Collections & Curator of Teapot History
      +duties, etc.

      Librarian | Central Teapot University, 2005-2010
      Cataloging and Special Discovery Librarian
      +duties, etc.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Possibly. The problem is that my title is not even consistent within the company. My offer letter says “Task Admin.” When I send a message in our internal system, my name shows up with (Task Manager) after it. Then when my boss set up my email account, he set my title as “Managing Editor” in the signature line. To me, task admin and task manager sound like they are low-level positions that just involve completing rote tasks. Managing Editor is obviously a lot better in terms of communicating responsibility, but it’s not the title in my offer letter/job description.

        1. foxing in the stacks*

          Hmm, I personally wouldn’t stress the offer letter too much. The thing is, if a reference calls and asks, “can you confirm Ms. Bong worked there as a Managing Editor?” are they going to know that’s you and confirm it? This probably depends on the system your employer has set up / who they’d talk to / etc.

  78. Peaches*

    Hi all! For those of you that have been following the saga of my terrible coworker who was finally replaced, I have some good and bad news.

    The good news is that my new coworker has done really well so far. She’s competent, a good listener, productive, and has really thrived in her new role so far.

    The bad news? She’s a total over-sharer. Well, not even so much an over-sharer as a sharer of the most random information. I really don’t mean to sound harsh because there are so many worse traits she could have. However, it’s driving me bonkers at times! To clarify, I don’t mind socializing. Our office culture is one where it’s perfectly fine to socialize occasionally as long as we’re being productive.

    I have to walk past her desk to get to the printer. She stops me every. single. time. to tell me random stories. Some examples:

    “So, my son is going to see a Queen cover band in Detroit this weekend. He spent $400 on plane tickets to fly there because he’s such a Queen fanatic. Can you believe that? He’s going to meet a friend there who’s actually driving all the way from New Jersey to go with him and meet him at the concert. Well, he WAS going to at least. But then his friend found out how expensive the concert tickets were, so he’s actually going to drop my son off at the concert and pick him up afterwards. So that’ll work out well because prior to that my son was just going to take public transit which I told him ‘I hope you know what you’re doing so you don’t get yourself into trouble’. He’ll get back Sunday night, so my husband and I are fighting over who has pick him up from the airport, it’s a really long drive from (her hometown city), you know there’s so much construction on highway X….”

    “So my daughter is begging me to buy her a new pair of soccer cleats. I told her ‘honey, you’re 21 now, you can buy your own shoes.’ I told her maybe if it was her birthday or a holiday, I’d consider it, but her birthday isn’t until December. She’s always complained about having her birthday the same month as Christmas because she feels like she doesn’t get as much as her younger brother who has a summer birthday. Man, we she turned 21 she thought she thought she was all that. I offered to take her out for a drink, but she didn’t want to hang with her lame mom. Well, I finally convinced her though since I was paying for her drinks. Our neighbor actually went with us too. Her daughter is only 20 though, so she was upset that she couldn’t come with us…”

    Am I being too harsh? Should I just let her ramble and get over it? I try to close the conversation by slowly walking away while saying, “oh, cool”, or some variation, but she just keeps talking. Please help!

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Oh God I had a supervisor who did this once. We privately referred to her as the “black hole” and, at one point, my coworkers would time how long someone would be stuck in the hole for. Not our proudest moment.

      I never did figure out how to handle it with my supervisor, but if your coworker isn’t a supervisor I think you can be a little harder about it. A “nice talking to you, but I have to get back to work” and then firmly walking away could help. It’s on her if she keeps talking to someone’s retreating back, I’d think. You have to shake the idea that you’re being rude – which is easier said than done, I know!

      1. Peaches*

        Oh gosh, haha. That’s awful, but I can so relate.

        My issue is definitely shaking the idea that I’m being rude! I always fear if I cut her off that she’ll think I don’t like her, which isn’t true. I do think she’s a good employee!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Every single time?! We just had a recent letter about someone who was chatty to everyone as they walked by with mixed feedback on what to do but that may be a good place to start!

      I would be kind and just cut her off every once in awhile if you’re in a hurry, don’t feel bad saying “I’m sorry, Jane but I need to get back to work and can’t chat right now.” Even if you have to cut her off. It’s perfectly acceptable and you’re not her captive audience.

      And also just keep walking and that’s perfectly fine too. She’ll either figure out that you don’t want to hear her stories all the time or she’ll just keep doing it and oh well, just work around her, you know.

      1. Peaches*

        Unfortunately, yes, every single time. I dread going to the printer sometimes because I know I’m going to be dragged into one of her random stories (not even sure if I can call them stories…more like, her blabbering of randomness).

        I think I need to do a better job of being direct by cutting her off as you mention. I fear coming across as rude even though I’m not the one with the issue here (not that I’m perfect, haha).

        Sometimes when she’s talking I just think…does she REALLY think I care about this? I know that sounds awful. I am a caring person. However, the details she goes into are just too much. LOL.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s good to worry about being rude, that’s what keeps you not rude ;) It’s not rude to set boundaries or to take care of your own needs [like getting your report from the printer and getting back to your desk!]

          So if you are careful to watch your tone and still stay friendly with her, then it should be A-OK.

          Usually people like this just have nervous energy and their go-to is talking. She may just be still trying to get to know everyone since she’s new. I would assume that she’s just a nice person who needs to get her nerves out and settle in. So be kind but be firm when you need to get back to work!

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      She sounds like my boss that I just posted about above! :) The good news in your case is that she’s not actually your boss, so it should be easier to get away from her. You will almost certainly have to interrupt her and/or walk away while she’s still talking, but you should be fine as long as you’re polite about it.

      1. Peaches*

        Haha, I just read your post. She DOES sound just like my new coworker! The funny thing is we also have a manager who essentially does the same thing. However, I’m only caught in the crossfire about twice a month, so it’s not as bothersome because of the frequency. You’re right that I should have some more pushback with a peer though!

    4. Interplanet Janet*

      Any chance she has come from a job where she had no one to talk to ever? (Or just started back to work after being a SAHM or something?)

      If so, I’d give it a little time to even out. Maybe she’s starved for adult conversation! :)

      1. Peaches*

        She wasn’t a SAHM, but I suppose she may have not gotten a lot of interaction in her previous job – I’m not real sure either way! I know she was also out of work for several months before landing this job, so maybe as of recent she just hasn’t had a lot of adult conversation. Haha.

        1. Interplanet Janet*

          No, joke, I hired a gal once who had been a SAHM for several years (and her husband was military, so he traveled and she was living away from family and friends) and it kind of became a running joke that you couldn’t go to her area unless you had a LOT of free time.

          She got better after awhile, but it was totally this kind of random Must. Talk. To. Someone. attitude. It eventually evened out, and she was in a customer-facing position where friendly chit chat was a bonus, so it wasn’t a big deal.

  79. Llamas of my heart*

    Professional etiquette please!

    I would like to express a romantic interest in someone that I’ve met through work. We run a dancing llama sanctuary, he is ringmaster of a flying monkey circus, he’s doing a one-off event where the monkeys will ride on the back of our dancing llamas. Done and dusted to the benefit of all.

    Using the ‘can they tell you to go to hell?’ rule of thumb, I think it’s a no to any expressions of interest until the llamas have danced. I don’t run the sanctuary, but I do say which llamas are available on which day, so the circus would think they need to keep on my good side, and I don’t want to be creepy or unprofessional.

    Any thoughts?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I love your explanation of the connection and the dancing llamas :)

      I would agree that you should wait to ask them out until after the event you are working with them on.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      Yeah, definitely wait until the professional relationship is over. I have a coworker who’s started dating a consultant who’s been working with us, and still has one more appointment scheduled to come back in a couple of months. It’s made management extremely nervous that this is happening, even though the coworker has no say in the consultant’s contract and all of it was signed long before they started dating – it looks like a conflict of interest. Avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, and you should be okay.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree, once the event is over you can totally approach them! “I’ve really enjoyed working together, would you be interested in getting coffee sometime/[equivalent low-stakes invitation]?” should be an easy way to see if they have any interest in an outside work relationship (of any magnitude).

      Good luck!

    4. Peaches*

      I’m laughing at your dancing llama and flying monkey explanation. :)

      I think you’re fine expressing yourself after the professional relationship has come to an end.

    6. Pippa*

      I think your inclination is correct, and I also think that “until the llamas have danced” should replaced “until the fat lady sings” as an expression in general use.

      1. Llamas of my heart*

        BUT WANTS!!!!

        No, it would clearly look very unprofessional, and would lead to suspicions that I had misled the Board when I said that I thought llamas would find being ridden by monkeys an interesting and stimulating new challenge that would raise awareness of our mission.

  80. Crispy, But Not Burned Yet*

    My manager just informed me that the company is changing its cell phone policy. We currently have BYOD with partial reimbursement for all employees, but we are moving to company cell phones for directors and above, with no reimbursement for people who continue to use their own devices. The original messaging was that some employees would be issued company phones while the employees who didn’t receive a company phone would continue to receive reimbursement. We are required to use our personal cell phones for 2FA to log in to the company VPN.

    I don’t see this going over well at all. This is going to be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for a lot of employees. (Our employees are very sought after right now and have no trouble at all finding new positions. The recruiters are already circling due the blood in the water from all the other changes.)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      And what’s their rationale for essentially giving these employees a pay cut?

      1. Crispy, But Not Burned Yet*

        Company policy! They will also no longer provide subsidized meals in our new location, as well as eliminating employee shuttles, which is a rather large pay cut as well. But we’ll have free parking! (Parking is currently free.)

        HR seems befuddled by how furious employees are over these changes. Assuming an employee gets cell phone reimbursement and eats in the company cafeteria every day for breakfast, lunch and snacks, plus the additional costs of commuting, it’s not an insignificant amount, particularly for non-exempt employees. Since most employees live close to the current location, commute time will increase by 1.5 – 2 hours each way by car or 2 – 3 hours each way by mass transit. Just for myself, I eat most meals in the company cafeteria, receive cell phone reimbursement and have a relatively brief commute. With the changes, that would result in roughly a $400/month pay cut for me, personally. I mean, I would start preparing and bringing my own meals to work, so it wouldn’t really be quite that much, but the longer commute time means I have less time to prepare my own meals, and there would definitely be a lot more wear and tear on my car. Also, Friday commute times from work to home are routinely 3 – 4 hours one way, instead of 1.5 – 2 hours.

        1. Bex*

          Oh dear. It sure sounds like there is going to be a mass exodus! Perhaps you should be talking to one of those recruiters? That is a pretty ridiculous list of changes… is there any change that they are intentionally trying to reduce headcount?

          1. Crispy, But Not Burned Yet*

            Yes, at this point, it’s pretty clear that they intend to reduce headcount and avoid layoffs so they don’t have to comply with the WARN Act and provide severance packages. Part of the acquisition agreement was that there wouldn’t be any layoffs, so I imagine this is what they are doing instead.

            I’m polishing up my resume and considering whether I want to look now or wait. I should have a diagnosis for my autoimmune disorder by early fall and that will make it easier to decide what I should do. This job provides excellent health care benefits, with no formulary restrictions, which is a big deal in the US, particularly if it turns out I’m going to need one of the drugs that costs $$$$ to treat it.

            1. Windchime*

              Good idea on polishing up your resume. My previous company was bought out and they also made the promise that they wouldn’t lay off for two years. Turns out that was BS and they started laying off immediately. So it’s best to be prepared.

    2. Qwerty*

      How often are the personal cell phones being used? Is it just 2FA for logging in or are the phones actively being used for work purposes? (ex: making client calls all day or being required to check your email outside of work hours)

      1. Crispy, But Not Burned Yet*

        It depends on the job. However, a lot of people had to upgrade their phones for the 2FA, and they sweetened the pot by telling people that their phone bill would be reimbursable, so I don’t think people are going to take it well.

        Personally, I upgraded to a phone that makes it easy for me to respond to email when I’m on call. That way, I don’t have to lug my laptop around so much. Now, they’re going to have to pay me for my time spent waiting for a very slow laptop to boot up. It’s all overtime for me anyway, so I guess that’s their choice if that’s how they want to spend their money.

        1. TPS Cover Sheet*

          Goes off a different account in the ledger. Huge savings for one pointy-haired boss means bonuses for him. The doubled cost for the admin is ”expenses” anyways, they don’t get bonuses anyways as they just cost.

  81. MaryAnne Spier*

    I have an interview Monday for a Dean of Students job at a high school. I have all the requirements they listed in the ad, but I’ve never held this position before. I know they’re going to ask why I applied.

    The honest truth is this:
    I was looking for a job as a high school librarian when I spotted this listing. I used to work at a sister school to this one, was friends with the dean of students, and I knew she loved her job. I read through the description and realized that a lot of the skills I’ve honed over my career in special education and as a librarian also really lend themselves to this: organization, attention to deadlines, strong written communication skills, a black belt on dealing with parents. Plus I am familiar with technical high school education from 13 years at the sister school; I understand and support the district’s mission. Plus, I like teenagers and they like me. I believe that with my experience and background, I could be an asset to this school and I decided to go out on a limb and apply.

    I know the phrase “go out on a limb” needs to be switched out for something stronger, but other than that, does it sound ok?

    1. LionelRichiesClayHead*

      I think you should move away from the “go out on a limb” type response at all. If you have the skills, experience, and it’s in the realm of what you already do, I don’t know why it would be so hard to believe you are interested? I may have missed something but to me this seems like normal job/career growth into a branch of the path you are already on. I think you expressed above why this is a good fit and a natural progression for you. So I personally wouldn’t think of it as weird or unlikely that you would be interested.

      1. Reba*

        I agree with this and would also swap out the opener that makes it sound like you are doing this as a lark when you would really rather be in libraries…. Instead make sure you sound intentional. Good luck with the interview, MaryAnne!

    2. fposte*

      Hey, congrats on getting the interview! While you don’t want to be over-rehearsed, I think your phraseology here could underselling you. It’s also drifting between why you’re applying and why you think you’d be good at it–which can be okay, but you don’t want to duck the legitimate “Why are you changing horses?” question.

      You’re not just “familiar” with technical high school education; you lived it every day for 13 years. “Organization” and “attention to deadlines” are on their own clerical-type characteristics that don’t speak specifically to this position–instead I’d focus on higher-level organization, especially if it involved compliance, liaising between different authorities, etc.–and why you found it rewarding or satisfying Ditto with your dealing with parents–are we talking IEPs, discipline, other likely to be relevant things? What did you like about doing that?

      Basically, what you’re saying is that your other work has brought you close enough to the duties here for you to find it an exciting challenge that you believe to be in your grasp.

  82. Audacious Asparagus*

    Clash of the Directors is ‘Now Two Directors and One Staff ‘

    A couple weeks ago the program director and the office manager announced their departure and retirement. (-2)

    Due to an ever-widening gap between the program manager and the executive director and development director, the program manager gave notice. (-1)

    And the events manager, who is on maternity leave, has submitted their notice. (-1)

    That leaves me, the one staff, the program and development coordinator and the ED and DD. (+3)

    Where do we go from here? The ED and DD have run off 4 people. This will be interesting.

  83. Tired of TPS Reports*

    Do you think some people are not meant for office/corporate life? If so, what are the options for those people? Has anyone here transitioned from corporate life to something different with success?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There are a lot of people who don’t fit the corporate life. I know a lot of people who can’t handle being cooped up or restricted by desk jobs. They’re the kind of folks who thrive better in hands on jobs or creative positions.

      In my case I’m good with office jobs and business but I’d curl up and die if I were in a strict corporate structure kind of place. That’s why I’m best fit for small businesses. It’s the same concept with people who aren’t happy inside the office/corporate life.

      I had a lot of former bosses who are creative and made their fortunes creating things, then they created a team around them that sold that stuff for them. Be the person in the back that’s building things instead of selling them :)

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      This is such a good question. I like some aspects of corporate life (I thrive on having a schedule, for example) but absolutely loathe others (politics and managing up UGH). I’ve often wondered about this myself. I hope you get some good advice.

    3. cat socks*

      My husband works in a corporate office building, but he is in maintenance. He has a desk but is rarely there. He spends the day working on HVAC systems, boilers and other machinery. He went from retail into this job so he’s never had an office/desk job. I live in a city with a large automotive plant and a lot of people there work on the assembly line.

    4. fposte*

      I don’t believe in “meant for” per se, but I think some people find it a better fit than others. But there are a ton of fields that aren’t office work–you probably encounter people working in them every day. Obviously this means you’ll need to think hard about what you don’t like about office life and what else you can tolerate or even like. There was a 2012 AAM column discussing this with a lot of different fields mentioned; I’ll append in followup.

    5. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I’d rather not even fart in the general direction of an office any more. This post actually inspired me to apply for a train dispatcher course. I’ll become a jobsworth, to revel in misery when the office drones hear my robotic voice on the tannoy ”your train is cancelled”…

  84. sparty07*

    Internal hires are hard. On one side you’re making somebody’s day by giving them the job, but at the same time denying someone something they’ve worked really hard on and were really hoping for. Unfortunately, I think the person I didn’t choose will end up leaving the company shortly because of the choice I made.

    1. Michelle*

      Sympathies! We have had that happen a couple of times, but when they are not 2 positions open, you have to pick the best person for the position. I hope you told them in person before it was announced, to give them a little time to absorb it and be able to congratulate the person who got the position.

      1. sparty07*

        I made the offer after lunch, talked to second at end of the day. Official announcement will be on the 5th.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      A lot depends on how you handle it. I applied for 2 internal positions that I didn’t get. Was well qualified for both and the first rejection was in person, one on one with the hiring manager. I knew him quite well and he gave some great feedback and told me it basically came down to me and the other person and she got it because a) seniority with the company and b) slightly more familiar with the product line. Was handled really well and I continued working with him very well.
      The other time was a shit show. He called me into a room with the entire team (which included the person who DID get the job) and the HR rep and started with the notification I didn’t get the job then attempted to start giving me career guidance and examples of how he got to where he is and blah blah blah. The HR rep (who had no idea what the meeting was for) shut this down quickly. HR and my current boss absolutely reamed him out and reminded him that he’d been a manager for less than 3 months and in that time had lost 2 employees. He was demoted within a year.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Yeah, you may lose the second person from your company, but they could possibly leave for something better, which would turn out to be great for her. I left a company after being passed over twice for internal roles that I was more than qualified for, and now I’m in a position to work from home full-time and I’m doing what I actually love (writing and editing full-time, which was not what I did before) – I didn’t know it at the time, but those hiring managers did me a huge favor. I’m making way more money than I would have been had I been offered either role, I have much better health insurance, and much better benefits in general. I also don’t have to deal with office politics too much (I did have to learn to manage up with my boss recently, which was annoying, but now that I know how she operates, I think we’ll be fine moving forward). My career changed for the better, so I imagine your rejected candidate’s will too.

  85. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

    I’ve been told I’m being put forward for a special bonus for my hard work and helpful attitude!
    Nice to be appreciated, and I’ll have some holiday spending money!

  86. paralegal part deux*

    Well, yesterday was the last day for my now ex-coworker (she left early – which is relevant). One of the attorneys has a hearing today, and I was getting him ready when I discovered that ex-coworker hadn’t actually been filing the pleadings in the binder but just cramming them down in the file for a month and a half.

    Not sure what else I’m going to find as I go along. Do I need to go ahead and let the bosses know what all I’m finding? Does it even matter since she’s gone and won’t be back?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I think it’s worth mentioning in case she’s misplaced anything or misfiled anything! Even fi she hasn’t, it’s creating more work for you and will delay you from getting other work done (which is worth letting your higher ups know).

      1. paralegal part deux*

        Yeah, I just found she hasn’t been filing letters in the reading files for the attorneys, either. The last one was in March that was filed, so it’s right at 4 months behind on filing since I know letters have gone out. *head desk*

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Definitely let them know. It’s creating more work for you, it could be a procedural problem, and if they were planning to give her a good reference, it lets them know that she doesn’t deserve one (or at least this should be factored into the reference).

    2. Pebbles Bishop*

      You absolutely need to tell your bosses what you’re finding. At least in my industry, unfiled pleadings are a big deal.

    3. Former Govt Contractor*

      As a paralegal supervisor for 22 years, I have been through this so. many. times. I wouldn’t bring it up unless it explains why something took you longer because you had to straighten out her mess first or it becomes an issue in some other way. No need to sugar coat it at that point, though. She’s gone for a reason.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Another thought: Unless it’s immediately relevant, consider not mentioning it in real time. Just keep a list that you can share with your manager/coworker’s former manager so they can reference it if needed.

  87. Coffee Cake*

    What’s the best way to thank & help an unpaid undergraduate intern? (I KNOW, I am morally opposed to unpaid internships, I work in government and unfortunately there was no way to get her paid. Her college also isn’t giving her credit for it. I do feel a little icky about it, but my department was hiring her no matter what, and I also think and hope it’s been an interesting and positive experience for her.)

    Anyway, I intend to serve as a reference for her as long as she needs it, write her a general recommendation letter just in case it’s useful/for the record, and also have my boss write her one. My coworker and I will also take her out to lunch on her last day. Is there anything else I can do to “compensate” her for her amazing work this summer?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      What are her goals during/after college? Are there paid internships she’s pursuing? Letters of recommendation are great and all, but the most powerful thing is helping her build her network to get where she wants to go.

    4. Reba*

      Tuning in because I’m in a similar boat! (If it helps at all, if her college were “giving her credit” for this she would likely also be paying for the privilege of working for you, so that’s not a bad aspect of the situation in my book.)

      My workplace has a public website/blog where interns can publish something, so that gives them an accomplishment they can easily point to.

      I’m also planning to take my intern(s!) out to lunch. I have 2.5 interns that I supervise; because they are here through different programs two are paid a stipend and one is not.

      Giving an intern cash seems *very* weird to me. OTOH a gift card would feel within bounds, so this is an arbitrary politeness thing I guess!

      Re: the letter of recommendation — ignore this if you are not in the US — let her know you’ll do one and I’d go ahead and draft something while your memories of working with this person are fresh. But it doesn’t need to be something she literally takes away when she leaves, because a general letter (that she has seen the text of) is not going to be good for much, I think. Future applications for graduate school or scholarships are going to want confidential letters directly from you, and future employers will probably want to talk with you.

  88. EddieSherbert*

    There’s a coffee shop across the street from my office that I am a frequent customer at andddd I stopped in before work today (which is like 6am when I’m basically a zombie) and I managed to spill their creamer. The full metal container thing that holds a TON of creamer and I spilled most of it, and then in my shock I dropped my coffee. Honestly, I awkwardly just tried to leave ASAP because again, it’s 6am, what is happening?! but the staff insisted on getting me more coffee and helping clean me up… It was so nice but, wow, I really really just wanted to disappear.

    So now I’m sitting at work in my yoga pants (thank goodness I planned to go to the gym after work) because there’s coffee all over my work pants, so glad it’s Friday, and debating if I need to find a new coffee place…

    1. L.S. Cooper*

      Oh nooooo. That’s the worst.
      I wouldn’t stop going there, but I would definitely tip an extra couple of bucks for a little bit for peace of mind!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Ohh, extra tip is a good idea!!

        They’re honestly the best and I know they would never mention it to me again unless I bring it up, I’m just the “queen of being awkward and then dwelling on it”… so very likely I’ll wait a couple weeks to go back and then I’ll feel nervous when I do (even though it’ll be fine anyways and I’ll feel silly for avoiding them…). Hahaha.

        (Remember when we thought that kind of thing went away as an adult? Sigh, I wish!).

        1. valentine*

          It’s the worst and the best. Either they’ll never forget you or you’re the 50th person to do it and you all run together. Bonus if the coffee and cream blended on the floor just the way you like.

    2. Turtlewings*

      Trust me, as long as you weren’t horrible to the staff about it, they don’t think any less of you. It might have been the day’s funny story, maybe even the week, but stuff happens, they’re not gonna care in any long-term way.

    3. Nanc*

      We’ve all been there . . .
      You don’t need to find a new coffee place but a generous tip next time you’re in and perhaps a nice handwritten note/card to the manager giving kudos to the staff for covering your groggy minimal-brained self would be appreciated. You can also do the social media kudos if that’s your jam.
      I’m pretty sure the coffee folks have cleaned up much worse fluids than creamer and coffee!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Online reviews are in fact my jam! Excellent idea.
        They honestly deserve all the starts even without this; they’re a wonderful little shop (which is why I’m willing to wait until I get to WorkTown to get coffee, versus buying some in HomeTown before driving in).

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Maybe you could offer to pay for a round of cake or coffee for them? I don’t know if they are the kind of place that gives them a free meal or whatever, but I’ve done this with bartenders before.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      My sister is a barista. She says polite customers are never a problem. I have had baristas elsewhere go to a bit of special steps to serve me just because I am always polite, etc. The staff would probably be a tiny bit sad to lose a polite regular.

    5. CatChaser*

      It wasn’t at a coffee shop, but I once destroyed a salad bar. I was in the small local grocery store, waiting while my non-driving high-schooler applied for a cashier job. This is a grocery store I shop at every week. I was at their small salad bar, looking at the specialty drinks they had on a shelf above the salad bar. I took one down to read the label (glass bottle), and went to return it to the shelf. I just ticked the edge of the sneeze shield, and the tempered glass sneeze shield exploded. I was left standing like the Statue of Liberty, covered in and surrounded by glass “crumbles”. They had to throw out the entire salad bar since they couldn’t just remove the visible glass pieces and call it a day. I offered to pay for what they had to throw away, but they said no.

      My daughter did get the job, I still shop there, and their new sneeze shield is plexiglass.

      1. willow19*

        This. is. awesome! Thank you for sharing. “Like the Statue of Liberty” hehehehehehehe

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Oh my gosh, that’s nuts! I would never expect that to happen! Hahaha, yikes. Great story afterwards, probably horrible in the moment. That was very nice of you to offer to pay for the ruined food.

    7. EddieSherbert*

      I decided to face my awkwardness head on and went back for lunch today (no coffee though haha!). One of the same employees were there who helped me last week, so I did thank her for being so nice to me “when I was so out of it and made a huge mess” and put a big tip in their tip jar. Minimal awkwardness and even that was mostly in my head, I think.

  89. Imaginary Number*

    I work in a highly technical field. Our division in the company is currently undergoing a massive growth across several programs, which includes a lot of shuffling around and new hires (mostly internal to the company but outside our division.) I’ve been in my current role for a couple years (around the time where most people move to other roles in our company’s culture.) I think I’m very good at what I do and have received feedback to the same. The expectation is that my next role should be at the next level up. Because of the growth in our division, there are plenty of roles at that level I could move into and because of the limited resources to fill those roles right now, it wouldn’t be a hard sell.

    My current manager desperately wants me to stay in my current role for two more major program milestones. He’s already losing a lot of folks due to this reshuffling and because of my experience I have the ability to cover down on those holes much better than someone new to the program. However, he can’t offer me the promotion I would get moving to a different role, because he only has so many allocated new hires for him, and an internal promotion takes up one of those new hire slots.

    I really like my boss and he’s been very supportive. I absolutely don’t want to leave him up a creek by taking another role. However, it irks me that I’m basically being asked to delay a promotion in order to help him out by taking over more responsibility. To make matters worse, other employees at the same level are able to move on (and get promoted) without as much heartache because they just aren’t as vital. I feel like I’m being punished for doing well.

    My boss has acknowledged this to some degree in our career discussions. He’s also mentioned that I get a lot of recognition at higher levels for the work that I’m doing. I appreciate that, but I have to wonder how much staying back to help out the program is really going to get recognized. Am I hurting my career by not applying for other roles like everyone else?

    I should probably add that I’m a woman in a very very male-dominated workplace (I’m the only one in my group.) And I wonder if by not putting my foot down about moving on I’m falling into the trap of women not advocating for themselves.

    1. Purple Jello*

      Don’t pass up a promotion. If your boss really wants you to stay, he needs to give you the promotion. You need to do what is best for you, not what is best for him. – Unless you are a shareholder in the company, in which case you might look at what was best for the company.

      He wants to have his cake and eat it too. If you leave, he’ll have to fill your slot which is also more work for him. What do you get (besides more responsibility without the pay) if you stay? I don’t see any benefits for you.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Absolutely do not pass up this promotion. If your boss wants you to stay, he needs to offer you some incentive, whether it’s the promotion or a bonus for staying through the milestones.

      I agree with Purple Jello, I don’t see any benefit for you if you stay.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      His argument that your promotion takes up a new hire spot doesn’t make sense. You’d be vacating a position that he would then need to fill, so it’s a net zero situation. Maybe he has to get special permission for the promotion and all the new hire spots are lower level so there’s a budget differential, but that’s not the same argument. If he really needs you to stay then he needs to do what it takes to keep you, which is to get you the promotion.

      Don’t stay to help if it means more responsibility without the promotion or salary increase that it deserves. If he can’t or won’t advocate for your promotion in place, apply for the other roles.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If you stick around, your boss gets an experienced employee doing higher level work for a lower level salary. You get more work for insufficient compensation. You already feel like you’re being punished for doing well – why would this change if you stick around under your boss’s proposed terms?

      Apply for the other roles.

  90. oval*

    Those of you who are searching/have searched for a job while employed, what number goal did you have for sending out applications? Currently, I’m so exhausted when I get off from work that I struggle to send out even 1 application per week. I always drown myself in hobbies after work versus trying to apply.

    1. cactus lady*

      So, it depended on my situation. If I was desperate, lots! No goal number, just anything that seemed better than the situation I was in. If I wasn’t desperate, I’d be very, very choosy about what I applied to, and numbers didn’t matter. Good luck!

    2. new kid*

      One thing that worked for me was to set aside time when I had it and focus on value add things that would make individual application processes much quicker/smoother in the moment so that it didn’t feel like such a burden when I did find a match to apply for. Things like: revamping resume, listing out engaging anecdotes highlighting key skills and accomplishments that could be used in cover letters/interviews, templating out a couple of high level cover letter “versions” so I at least had the structure prepared, preparing a plain text version of my resume to easily copy/paste into online forms, etc.

      I gave maybe a couple of hours each weekend (at most, honestly) to these types of tasks, plus a few minutes each day searching and flagging relevant postings, and that made it much easier to keep up with regularly applying to each of the positions that I had flagged. But I definitely still had low energy weeks where I didn’t manage to get any, let alone 1, app sent out so I would cut yourself some slack!

    3. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I had all these jobsites send me fitting jobs into a folder and then on the weekend I went with my iPad to the pub, got a few inspirational drams and a guinness and started shooting out applications. A lot of agencies ahve the same jobs so I always google-fued some conspicuous sentence and 1/2 the time found the direct employer. Sometimes though depending on the employer I applied via the agency. Cheeky me once got an automagic rejection and then up to the second interview via an agency, so taking a no as an answer isn’t my style. There is one ”grade II” listed job I get pestered with… I know who it is immediately as the job spec asks ”waterfall, v-model and agile”… like *nobody* has used the v-model since the 80’s unless its the German army… Apparently they hired a couple prodigies since they wiped with my cv, who both failed massively, so I think I might have been a bit too much up to the wind I wrote them a very snarky cover letter directly.

      So yeah, make it a routine or something with incentive so it doesn’t feel like a task. And do it not-at-home as otherwise you just start faffing around the house.

    4. Another Manic Monday*

      I’m very selective with my applications. I have only submitted 8 since I started my job search over a month ago. I only apply for jobs that fits in well with my prior experience and my resume can justify the application. I have gotten four interviews so far.

  91. Tathren*

    I’ve been at my new job for a little over 4 months now. My department is currently just my boss and I, and my boss is also relatively new to the company. I was hired partly to help clear out a backlog of old work that was never completed, as well as completing monthly tasks that typically take 3-5 days to complete and handling new projects as they come in.

    The problem I’ve run into is that I’ve finished the backlog of unfinished work and can’t do any more with it until certain roadblocks are cleared up (waiting on approval from outside agencies, client stopped paying, etc.). There’s also a limited amount of new projects coming in because it’s our slow season, and frankly I’ve run out of things to work on.

    I’ve raised this issue with my boss, but unfortunately there’s no work he can pass off to me and it doesn’t seem like he was expecting me to be done with the backlog so quickly so he’s at a loss here as well. I’ve already spent time learning new software, going over our equipment and resources, reorganizing files that had been scattered all over the place, reviewing policies and procedures… I just don’t know where to go from here because I’ve basically exhausted all reasonable things I could be working on.

    I wouldn’t mind taking a vacation day or two, but I’m still new to this company and when I was hired I negotiated two days off in early May so I’m hesitant to ask for more time off. But this is also my third week with little to no work and I genuinely have no idea what to do with my time in the office anymore.

    Any suggestions for where I should go from here, or ideas for other things to occupy my time with until new projects come in?

    1. Purple Jello*

      online training courses – expand your knowledge of excel (pivot tables!) or Word (macros!) Why not talk to your boss about more days off – especially if you’re willing to take them without pay.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      To go along with the online course suggestion, is there a certification/designation you can work on getting? If so, you could use your work hours to study. Are there training guides for your position? If not, could you write some? If there are other departments in your company, are any of them behind? If so, you could volunteer to go and assist them with their backlog as well.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Would there be any benefit to ask other divisions/departments for some cross-training, so you have a better idea of the bigger organization? Especially divisions yours will/does work with a lot. Disu
      cuss your manager first, of course (i.e. time limit, how to prioritize if main work picks up, etc.).

  92. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    This lovely article was proffering jobseeking advice on the default homepage for Firefox users:

    https://minutes.co/why-job-seekers-get-ghosted/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

    Advice highlights:
    “Hands down, the best thing you can do is to follow up. Send one email per week for at least three weeks.”
    and
    “It’s completely acceptable to reach out through different channels if you’re not getting any emails back. Try sending a polite LinkedIn message along.”

    Eek.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Oh no, and according to the author’s bio she runs a website for job seekers??? Y I K E S.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      One email per week for at least three weeks? Good grief. I mean, it would certainly make you memorable!

      Although personally, I’d prefer to be remembered as the person who was so great in the interview, rather then the person who annoyed the crap out of the hiring manager for the next month…

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      On the bright side, if everyone else is doing stuff like this maybe it will increase your chances of getting an interview?

      1. TPS Cover Sheet*

        Ha! This! Now I know what I’ll do, start a jobseek councelling website to sabotage all the other jobseekers out there!

  93. Environmental Compliance*

    My direct report is back to the same shenanigans. They do really well for like 3 days to a week…..and then crash. I can train them until I’m blue in the face, and it’s back to the same ol, same ol.

    At this point I’m just supposed to document, document, document, but really I just want them to figure out how to keep themselves on track, as I can only hand-hold so much.

    1. Kathenus*

      Suggest you focus on the document part and not on hand-holding. At this point as long as you’ve made it clear what they need to do to succeed in the role, let them swim or sink on their own to have a resolution – either a better employee meeting goals without undue supervision, or managing them out to get one who can do this. Easier said than done, I know, but good luck.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Fully agree! I just want to avoid further compliance fines. I’m getting sick of writing POs for stupid noncompliance fines and writing justifications to corporate why we need to pay another $1k+ to the City.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          And, right now DR is out on personal leave, and I have another person covering for them who is doing 100000% better with 100000% less training. Ya’ll, Covering Person is *actually thinking ahead* and taking preventive action steps. It has been a good Friday just with that.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              I want to so badly!! Same person will be covering for DR’s week long vacay coming up.

              Right now I’m stuck in document this lie, that lie, this error, that error….

        2. Kathenus*

          Due to the compliance fines aspect, can one of the requirements for success in the role be ‘any additional errors resulting in compliance fines will result in termination’ – in writing? If you could get upper management support for that, then either they’ll get better quick or be out quick.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I’ve been trying to include that, but so far my boss has been very….”meh”, for lack of a better term, about it. I’ve submitted the multiple fines’ documentation & investigation, and it apparently went off into a black hole.

      2. Sam Foster*

        Second this 1000%, if you’ve reached the document, document, document phase, you’re well passed the hand-holding phase.

  94. Alex*

    Would you give up a relatively secure job (that you hated) to move to a contract/temp job?

    Both jobs have great benefits.

    I really really want to switch fields, even though I have what some would deem a cushy, easy, relatively secure (though nothing is 100%) job. I HATE MY JOB. Hate it. I hate the work, I hate the office culture, I just hate it and I’ve been here way too long.

    I’m having trouble, though, finding a job I feel excited about that isn’t a big reduction in pay that I’m also qualified for. I found and applied for such a job….but it is just a 1 year contract, with the possibility of renewal.

    Also, if I get an interview, would it be gauche to try and ask them about their current financial status in terms of business sustainability? I know through a network contact that the reason they are hiring contract workers is due to their inability to be certain of their funding past 1 year, but I’m not sure how uncertain that is or what that really means. And how do I know if they are feeding me a line? (Like, yes, our business is thriving, we expect to be around a long time! when really things are dire.)

    I just don’t know if it is wise to give up my current job, with sort of above average pay (for my field, which is generally low paying) for a job that may be gone in a year. On the other hand I think about quitting with nothing lined up on a daily basis because I am so done with this job!

    If it helps, I do have a healthy savings, no kids, and am open to moving.

    (Also, if you are hired explicitly as a temporary worker, can you file for unemployment? I assume you can but I’m not sure.)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m personally a risk taker, so if you’re miserable it’s worth really exploring and digging into.

      I wouldn’t broach the subject of “how financially stable are you” in that kind of way, since you already know that the answer is going to be somewhere around “We don’t know until funding is secured annually.” The thing is to look and see how many of their contractors stay on after their initial year, just for a numbers game of yourself. “on average how many of your contract employees have been here past their initial year contract?” Which is the same as asking about turnover rate, which is totally normal to ask about as well.

      Once you have that year experience, you’ll also open up other doors if not at that specific organization, if they can’t keep you on but with others that would need you for similar work.

      It’s good to keep in mind that I’m a risk taker but I’m also not responsible for anyone who isn’t myself. So if you have kids or a family or obligations, by all means those need to be weighed heavily for the stability factor. Do you have a savings? Would you be able to survive if you were unemployed for awhile after the year is up? What’s the job market in general like in your area? Are there more openings than job seekers [that’s how it is here right now] or is it still really tight and difficult?

      Your health is worth a lot and if you’re miserable, it will deteriorate. Both mental and physical. Believe me.

    2. valentine*

      I’m wary about the one year but you sound so unhappy I think it’s worth the risk because the freedom will give you a potentially big enough boost that you’d see the second job search as a welcome challenge because at least you’re still free of current job and not desperate enough to go back. Just be sure you really won’t go back.

  95. voyager1*

    Got a question for the group:

    Do you think many managers suck at managing because they struggle or are incapable of thinking like a manager? They are just stuck thinking still like a direct report.

    I have been thinking about this since my last one on one with my manager, and it really hit me that I haven’t really seen any growth in her. She makes many of the same mistakes in scheduling, employee relations and accountability of the employees work. I have worked with her for 5 years, she has been a manger for around 2 years before that.

    I just have kinda gotten to the point with her, she is an excellent analyst but she has NO ability in managing a group of analysts.

    1. Catsaber*

      Yes, I think AAM has touched on that when she mentions people who get promoted for being good at their current job, but not because they actually have management potential or the desire to manage.

      Many people are not natural managers but they could be taught, so that’s another part of it. They could be excellent at their current role, and in turn be an excellent manager, but no one bothered to train them to be a manager, or they were not able to fit that into their schedule. So they just learn by trial and error over many years.

      And some people don’t want to learn how to be a good manager. And that’s…okay, but then you shouldn’t go for a management position. And if that’s the only way to get a promotion/more money, then it might be time for a new job altogether, or having talks with the boss/HR about a higher-level independant contributor role.

      1. Kathenus*

        Great points. To add to that – many organizations do not proactively train new managers in leadership/management skills – so if they are promoted for technical ability and not given training, it’s almost setting them up to struggle, if not fail.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of managers receive no training and are thrown into it. They’re great at This Part of Their Job, they may even be experts. So then theyr’e given “more responsibility” and their only option to grow with the business is to manage. Which doesn’t come naturally and they aren’t given any real guidance, so they stink at it.

      You say she’s an excellent analyst, so I bet that’s the problem. She’s awesome at that but if she stuck with it, she’d cap out at Senior Analyst or something and that’s going to limit her earning potential, so she just manages and continues to struggle.

      Some do grow into their roles or find ways to thrive in it despite being thrown into it. Others need someone to throw out that life ring ASAP.

      1. no, the other Laura*

        THIS. I know a LOT of people who were wonderful bench scientists, and got promoted to management. Their jobs went from “carefully write and execute these protocols, write up reports and the occasional patent disclosure, and go entire weeks without speaking to another human” to “deal with the 5 horrible personalities working under you, do hiring and firing, and manage upwardly the 5 Vice Presidents you now report to, in addition to managing budgets and writing career development things and giving feedback, plus writing funding applications and making quarterly presentations to the Technical Board of Directors.”

        Soft skills become critical when you move into management. Almost all of it is managing communications and budgets and strategy, and has nothing to do with what the people who report to you are doing at any given time. Sooooo much of it ends up being about managing relationships more than anything else, and if you aren’t good at office politics it hurts not just you but your whole department.

        1. voyager1*

          Y’all make great points. For me my manager doesn’t seem to grasp that she manages a team… a group of individuals.

          Examples:
          Current team lead has no grasp of being considerate or working in a group. But she will say “he does great work” to defend any criticism or feedback about his behavior.

          Manager says frequently that she doesn’t have time to manage us in group meetings/conference calls. I personally find this to be demoralizing , others have said similar things too.

          Lastly, I feel reviews and one/ones are just boxes she is checking. I told her earlier this month, that I felt with the intitive I show, team skills and work results I need to see some kind of promotion. I told her that I felt I could use some training in advanced excel (ha ha irony right). She seemed respective and suggested a class. When I followed up with her on the class she suggested taking the excel classes on our company training hub “on my own time”. These classes are L O N G like 3-5hrs. I guess what I am saying is, she said oh yeah a class is a great idea when I was with her because she felt that was what she had to do then. A real manager to me would have just said take the classes on your own time not shown any real interest. For context I see my manager twice a year since we are on different parts of the country.

          I don’t know maybe I am reading into it too much.

    3. Jane*

      My manager sucks because she’s afraid of responsibility. She’s terrified of making decisions, questioning authority, etc. She thrives when she has a specific directive, instructions, and clear procedures. She freezes when she’s asked to change those, make them herself, or make exceptions to them. She doesn’t want to be on the hook for anything that goes wrong, and bends over backwards to get “approval” for everything even when it is stuff she should be making decisions about herself. Her manager probably finds her infuriating, because she’s always asking him this and that and he’s always saying “I don’t care.”

      So yeah, I’d say she thinks like a direct report.

        1. Jane*

          It is, man, it is.

          It’s extra frustrating for me because I’m a “LET’S JUST DECIDE ALREADY!” kind of person and my whole job feels like that feeling you have when you are driving behind someone who is going just about 5 miles per hour slower than you want to go–when you can’t quite pass them, but not passing them feels like you’ll never ever get there. ARGH!

    4. Asta*

      I think you make a really good point here.

      This is why the best manager may not be someone with expertise in the role you do. I will take someone who’s a good manager and respects MY skills and knowledge over that any day.

  96. Mrs. Halbee*

    I recently got married and my husband and I combined our surnames (think Halpert and Beesly becoming Halbee). My husband and I are super excited about our name change! Among the many reasons why we opted for this is because we didn’t want to support the tradition of a woman taking her husband’s name because of its sexist roots.

    I email a ton of people for work – most not within my building, whom I never see in person – and already a few have seen the name change in my signature and sent me a quick “Congrats!” email or added some congratulatory note to the end of their response. I’ve realized that they are (correctly) assuming I got married but (incorrectly) assuming I just took my husband’s name!

    I’d love to correct the record, but I can’t think of a way to that doesn’t feel too weirdly forward – like I’m giving them way more information than they need to know/asked for.

    I’m sure the answer is that I should let it go and just let people assume I took my husband’s name. But is there any possible response I can give that would correct the record without seeming out of place?

    (FWIW: Part of my job is to help support a ton of intelligent, high-powered, progressive women. They often don’t change their name, likely because of work they’ve published through their careers. I don’t want to be perceived as….oddly traditional, if that makes sense.)

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      No advice, but… I really wish this idea had occurred to me when I got married. I changed my name but also struggled with the idea of being that traditional. I tried using first maiden last as a full name, no hyphen, but it’s much easier to just do first last. My name blended with my husband’s name would have been great. Not that it’s impossible to change it now, but… it would definitely be harder to explain after eleven years of marriage. :)

    2. Turtlewings*

      First of all, that’s an awesome idea. I know one other couple who did that and thought it was grand.

      Second, now while it’s still new information, it might not be weird to send out an announcement? Something like “As a few of you have noticed, my last name has changed! My new husband and I have combined our surnames as we combine households — Jane Halpert and John Beesly are now Jane and John Halbee!”

      (And congratulations, by the way!)

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      I think it would be weird to announce the details of your new name. You don’t need to “correct the record” — you don’t even know what folks are assuming about your name.

      You can let your close colleagues know, casually, as your wedding comes up casually in conversation. Otherwise, you don’t need to manage what other people think about your name (especially because they probably aren’t thinking about it at all).

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I think since OP has already made the name change “silently” i.e. without an announcement saying “this is my email now” … it’s too late to craft a message around it.

        And FWIW, if the part of your original name is as visible in the new name as in your example, some people will likely get it!

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        “you don’t need to manage what other people think about your name (especially because they probably aren’t thinking about it at all).”

        This is kind of where I stand with it, too. People are just saying congratulations – if they ask about the name at some point, tell your story (it’s an awesome one! I wish we would have figured out some cool combo name!), but it’s…..weird as a response to a simple Congrats.

    4. sacados*

      I think for coworkers and contacts that you know slightly better/interact with more often, it would be OK to reply to the congrats type emails with something short, like “Thanks so much! We decided to combine our names and I’m really excited to be Jane Halbee” or …. something like that but less awkwardly worded haha.

      1. Mrs. Halbee*

        That was the goal! If I could find a way to word it as casually and briefly as something like: “Thanks so much! We had a great time.” or “Thanks! Glad to finally be done with wedding planning!”

        But “Thanks! My spouse and I combined our last names!” just doesn’t have that same feeling of short, casual, nondescript relevancy.

        1. Close Bracket*

          How about,

          “Thanks! I’m loving the new name. Husband and combined our names to come up with it!”

          Or

          “Thanks! I’m loving the new name. Husband and I came up with it together!”

    5. Angelinha*

      I don’t know that there’s anything to correct! They’re seeing a new name and assuming (correctly!) that you changed your name because you got married. If they say “oh my gosh I love your husband’s name that you took,” you could clarify.

    6. Sam Foster*

      In my experience, I note name changes but don’t expect explanations. Could be a marriage, a divorce, or other reasons. Frankly, if someone sent out a “you might be thinking I took my husbands name but actually we combined them” my first response is “how presumptuous of you” followed shortly by “why do you think I care” and then probably with a “well, that was a waste of my time.”

    7. Mellow*

      I don’t understand what “record” you have to correct.

      Can’t you just combine your last names and … that’s it?

  97. Carly Rae Jepsen*

    Quick question: if I started a job at the end of June, would it look bad to ask for two days off in October to go to a cousin’s wedding? I wouldn’t ask until early-to-mid September, so I’d be asking just before my three month anniversary.

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      Absolutely not bad! It’s not like you booked a 3 week caribbean cruise. It’s a wedding, and it’s 2 days, and you’ll have been there 3 months. Ask away!

    2. Zona the Great*

      Not at all! I think you could even say it now: “Hey Boss, I normally would wait since it’s a ways off but since I’m just starting out I wanted to mention that my cousin is getting married and I was hoping to schedule two days of annual leave. Do you anticipate any issues with this?”

      People have cousins. Cousins get married. Two days is nothing and s/he will appreciate that you are considerate.

      1. Sam Foster*

        Do what Zona the Great is suggesting. As a manager, I’d rather have more notice than less.

  98. Don't Ask Me About My Health, Please*

    How do you deal with a major health issue that requires multiple absences from work when you really don’t want everyone to know?

    I was diagnosed with colon cancer this week. I don’t have a ton of information just yet, but all the early indications look good. However, the next several weeks will involve more tests, consulatations with the surgeon and oncologist, and finally a surgery that will likely require me to be out for 2-3 weeks. All without a lot of notice. There may be radiation or chemo after that but at least I’ll be able to schedule that out further in advance. The problem is that I work for a public medical university (16,000+ people) in an internally high profile role that brings me in contact with most of the faculty/staff. My role also involves coordinating and leading testing and training meetings, which my colleagues will have to cover for me if I need to be out.

    While I’ve told my team and they are all very supportive (and willing to keep the news private), I really don’t want to let anyone outside of the team know. I’ve seen what happens to other people when their health conditions have become known- everyone wants to give their “expert” opinion (to be fair, some of them are experts)! But I don’t want to share the details, and I definitely don’t want to spend the time and effort dealing with everyone’s well intentioned questions. Any advice on how to deal with questions about my absences without inviting more questions would be appreciated.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      I was diagnosed with breast cancer three years ago and faced a similar situation of being in a high profile role. I chose to handle it by being very public about my condition, which came with its own set of issues (as you’ve pointed out).

      You can tell people that you have a medical condition that requires time off, and leave it at that. You’ll still have lots of questions about what it actually is, but you can stand your ground and say that you prefer not to go into any details, don’t worry, I’m going to be fine, it’s just something I’m dealing with. I know Alison has had a lot of advice about dealing with medical issues at work over time – look for some of those for a script.

      I would caution you that the flip side of handling it this way is the potential for people to gossip and speculate on their own about what’s going on with you – but that might be preferable to publicly telling people what’s going on. For me, making it known what was happening was preferable to the gossip – but this is absolutely a personal preference, and you have to decide what’s best for you.

      And if you ever want a cancer buddy, let me know. I’m happy to provide my personal email address. I wish you the best.

    3. fposte*

      Oof. I’m glad it sounds like a promising prognosis, at least, but I can understand not wanting to to figuratively and maybe literally under the microscope of your colleagues.

      I’m presuming the leave and FMLA portions aren’t at issue–that you can tell whoever you need there (if you’re trying to avoid that, I’m afraid I don’t think that’s possible). Can you get the buy-in of whoever’s above you in the chain–dean is okay–and figure out messaging? Would you want to fudge it to the point of saying “personal matters” and let people think family stuff, or would “private health issues” be sufficient? Share the messaging with your team, because they’ll be asked while you’re out, and you’ll want to equip them with a party line so they don’t have to dig into improv.

      You will, in a place like that, still get asked, but you can just keep cheerfully repeating your message until they go away or get paged.

    4. NoLongerYoung*

      First, an internet hug. (Support role in this battle here).
      Second, there’s been a lot of wonderful advice and scripts about any and all medical things. I don’t have all the links (typing this at work) but I know others will speak up. There’s no need to say anything to anyone other than your manager/HR (depending upon where you are and what local rules are on FMLA. I had something, I did not say what, I simply said I had to be off for a medical reason, did my paperwork,and honestly, in my case, I didn’t even tell my manager what the procedure or diagnosis was. (The doctor letter went straight to the HR specialist). Just when I had to go out (I was scheduled for something), what my suggested plan was for coverage, where the files were, and when I was tentatively going to be back. We have official paperwork for going out, official for back, doctor letter straight to hr.
      I have super nosy coworkers but this is the time to channel the AAM scripts. You do not have to share this with anyone you do not want to. I kept my circle close.

    5. Breast Solidarity*

      I am in a similar boat — recently diagnosed breast cancer, just started chemo, and I work in an academic hospital. I want to keep knowledge to my department, but also know that given the setting the wig and painted on eyebrows aren’t going to fool anyone.

      Best of luck to you, and if you ahve any great invisibility tips, I would love to know!

  99. Kate H*

    I’ve never wanted to be job hunting so much in my life but I’m finding it impossible to take that first step. Upper management sprang a new time off policy on us last week. Previously, they were very flexible. We had a set number of paid days off, but we could take as many unpaid days off as we wanted as long as it was approved by our manager. Naturally, management is incompetent and a lot of people were taking advantage. Now, we’re only allowed to take 15 days off a year, paid or otherwise. It’s not about personal days either, scheduled days off for medical appointments count. You would think a policy like this would go into effect on January 1st, but no. It went into effect the very next day. Does that mean everything reset? No. If you’ve already taken your 15 days off this year, you can’t request anymore. My wife and I work for the same company and if she hadn’t already scheduled her time off for a vacation we take every year over Labor Day (hotel and flights booked since last year), she’d be screwed.

    I live in a Midwestern city where jobs are hard to come by and well-paying ones even harder. It’s hard for me to convince myself to look when I don’t know if I’d even be qualified for anything that pays this well and offers solid health insurance. This is my first post-college job and it’s in a rather niche field. I have a degree in a field that doesn’t offer many options unless you have a graduate degree. I’d really like to look for a remote position but I know those are hard to come by and the competition is fierce.

    1. irene adler*

      You’ll never know the facts (whether you are qualified for a job, what the benefits & pay are) until you do some looking. Otherwise, you’ll just continue to ‘speculate’ your way out of changing your situation.

      Is your resume together?
      Have you searched for professional organizations in your field ? That might be an avenue towards learning the reality – what jobs you actually do qualify for, what the actual benefits & pay are, opportunities for remote work, etc.

      1. Kate H*

        You make a very good point. :)

        I work in eCommerce, a field where at my employer no one can even agree on what our department is called. My resume is together. I’ve been trying to keep it updated, so I wouldn’t forget anything when the time came. Really, I’ve been trying to put in my two years and get that “X years of office experience required” check box satisfied.

    2. Colette*

      Honestly, this doesn’t sound like a “job search immediately” situation – it sounds like a good opportunity to talk with management and explain that you made plans based on the previous policy and it is a hardship to change the policy mid-year.

      15 days off isn’t outrageous, and a lot of places don’t allow unlimited unpaid time off, so the policy itself isn’t terrible – they’re just not implementing it thoughfully.

      1. Kate H*

        This is more of a “last straw in a long line of straws” situation. Management doesn’t care what we think about the policy. We were told that we could ask questions about the policy, but that there would no revisions, not even to provide clarification. They’re only honoring time-off requests for people over their 15 days if they were put in before the policy was announced. It would be annoying if they put this policy into effect next year, but I wouldn’t be looking to leave over it. I am willing to walk over them sending us this policy at 2pm on Monday afternoon so they could put it into effect on Tuesday morning.

    3. Anon for this*

      Ask your company if they’d be willing to allow employees to “buy up” and additional 1-2 weeks of PTO. It’s “unpaid” in a sense, but still give them some control over planning for it.

  100. banana pancake*

    People whose job involves putting out a lot of fires, how do you plan for the day, week, if at all? I’m definitely a planner and I find myself getting pretty frustrated because I’ll have a vague plan for the day (work on project A for 1-2 hours, have meeting with Jim at 4, catchup on Y for an hr, etc) and I’ll end up only doing one thing from the original plan because I had to spend the day tending to certain matters that sprung up.

    1. notfunny.*

      I don’t put out fires every single day, but often enough that I’ve adjusted my expectations for how many of my own tasks I’ll be able to complete. Usually, I have 2-3 things on my list for the day, knowing that there will be other issues that come up in the midst of it. If I can get through 1 of those items, that feels good to me. I’ve sort of revised what I think of as a productive day so that I don’t feel frustrated when I spend it responding to something that’s come up that requires urgent action. I think I also break projects up into smaller pieces that may be accomplished with a few minutes instead of planning for an hour or two of uninterrupted time.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      It sounds like you might have a mismatch between your style and your job. I have a “putting out fires” job and I know that any other “to do” items are going to have to just fit into the cracks that might appear in my day. The idea that I could plan to work on Project A for 1-2 hours etc — that just isn’t how it goes. Instead I start my day with “if I get a moment today, Project A is the priority.”

      1. Restructure Hellion*

        My job is like this – but grandboss has gotten on a kick about calendar blocking and wanting us to rigidly* plan our time in an effort to make more headway in our impossible workload. But we work with clients and they have emergencies. So, what to do?

        *He emailed the whole team an example with everything scheduled into 15 minute increments, including bathroom breaks. Just, wow. Work should not make you picture scenes from the Shawshank Redemption….

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Agreed. I had these kinds of jobs in the past, and you just can’t get attached to your plans.

    3. Kate H*

      I have a running list of projects that I have on-going, with different priority levels in mind. Some of these projects have been on my list for almost a year. It’s not uncommon for upper management to spring massive projects on me at a minute’s notice.
      First thing in the morning, I check my email. Then I go through my project list and check in on anything that requires daily attention. I highlight any projects that I want to work on that day and what needs to be done with them. Then I work through the list in order of importance. Sometimes I get through the whole thing before lunch. Sometimes I don’t get to any of it because there’s a fire. It’s something that I’ve had to get used to as my boss hands off more responsibility to me. As long as I’m making progress and essential projects aren’t falling to the wayside, it’s a solid day at work.

    4. Gumby*

      If the extra unplanned items pop up *every* day, could you just add “firefighting” as a planned task? At least that way you will have completed TWO things from the original plan. :)

    5. Asta*

      I plan my tasks by priority not date, and then just head for the high-priority stuff when I have time. I highly recommend looking into GTD as well for this.

  101. Turtlewings*

    The topic of HR mistaking internal policies for law came up in a letter this week, and reminded me of an annoyance I’m experiencing. I go by my middle name, Elizabeth, and have done so since birth. It’s a headache in a vast number of ways, don’t do this to your kids, but it is what it is — FirstName is NOT the name I answer to, any more than a normally-named person would want to suddenly answer to their middle name.

    A couple of days ago I discovered that in the online employee directory I’m listed as FirstName, which I’m sure causes confusion for anyone trying to find me. I contacted HR and asked them to change it, and they said they couldn’t do that because FirstName was my legal name and they couldn’t list me any other way (though they consented to put Elizabeth in parentheses next to it). This honestly steams me up more the more I think about it, because somehow I really doubt there’s a law anywhere compelling people to be listed in employee directories by legal first name only. Furthermore, Elizabeth IS my legal name, it’s just a different part of it than most people choose for their everyday use.

    A further annoyance is that my assigned email address at work is based on the first initial of my first name, which happens to be L. There is another Elizabeth in my workplace who goes by Liz, which I (vehemently) do not. Because her email address starts with E and mine starts with L, people trying to choose between the two Elizabeths tend to see MY address and think “oh, that must be her, L for Liz.” The one who goes by a name starting with L gets the E address, the one who goes by a name starting with E gets the L address. -_- I have it on pretty good authority that it would be quite easy to change my email address to eLastName, but they won’t do because it’s “not my legal name.” Again, I really doubt there is a law on the books a n y w h e r e saying one can only have an email address based on one’s first name.

    It’s just such an unnecessary problem, I needed to vent about it! Feel free to chime in with similar stories!

    1. LGC*

      That is why I just gave in and started using my first name in college and at work! I’m lazy. (And I mean, things could be worse – you could have MY first name, which is 1) old-fashioned and 2) that I share with a famous person I despise! I’ve developed a sense of humor about it.)

      Anyway…so, I’m not sure if you’re just ranting (which is cool) or if you want advice. If it’s the first, you can stop reading now (and also know that I agree that your HR is EXTREMELY UNREASONABLE).

      With your name, if they can do “L— (Elizabeth),” they should also be able to do “(L—) Elizabeth,” right? That might be a mutually acceptable compromise.

      With the emails, that should be easier to change – unless the address you want is taken. Would you be able to go through IT instead? Or, heck, to escalate through HR.

    2. Reba*

      If you think you want to spend the capital on it, FWIW this random stranger thinks this is worth pursuing higher up the chain. Enlist your manager and make the business case that this is not just a preference but is causing confusion with clients or whomever, which makes everyone’s job harder, and the job of HR is not to make people’s jobs harder by enforcing arbitrary rules over and above what’s reasonable.

      Or ask HR if the company will pay the court fees to change your “legal name” if that is truly the only way to change your email. ;)

    3. xxx9*

      Super weird – my workplace let’s you go by your preferred name. I go by legal first name but I had a doozy of a time because my boss goes by his Very Unique Middle and it’s the name on his badge and in the directory but his email only has his legal name (Bob Smith, legal name vs Hezekiah Smith, pref name – fake names). I don’t think it’s law or even company policy – they probably generated the email before they knew his pref name (all our emails are applicable initials + lastname).

      Honestly, it’s to their benefit if everyone knows you as Elizabeth, for them to let you peacefully live as Elizabeth outside of actual reasons (government stuff). It’s a simple courtesy – names are so personal. I would keep at it if you have the emotional and physical energy for it.

    4. Nessun*

      That seems unbelievably unnecessary. What do they do with people who have a legal name they only use with certain ethnicities? I once worked for a team with 11 members, all of whom had a Chinese or Korean name they did not use at work. We’d never have insisted the company directory say Dun when he went by DJ…no one would ever have found him! (Not even getting into transitioning before legally changing a name…) You should be able to choose a name that works best for you.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      We have the name everyone goes by for their emails, in the directory, etc., but there’s also a mostly secret HR system with people’s legal names (first and last only) that we only use during review season. It’s so confusing! Some people go by their middle names, some people legally changed, but don’t use their married name at work, and there’s no way to find them if you don’t get both parts right. Ugh! How was I to know that Jane Smith who I work with is Mary Smith in the system? Or Sue Jones is Susan Johnson!

    7. emmelemm*

      As I’m sure has been pointed out before on these issues, this comes across as super unfriendly (at best!) to trans people or any sort of non-conforming people, really. It’s just a bad, bad policy.

    8. Anon for this*

      This is not a law and they’re being ridiculous. Nearly every HRIS system under the sun has a setting for “preferred name” and it is increasingly common (demographic changes, transgender, etc.) for the preferred name to be different from the formal first name.

    9. Dear liza, dear liza*

      Oh, commiseration. Legally I took my husband’s last name but professionally kept my birth surname. My workplace directory was notoriously slow to update, which worked great because I didn’t want my name changed post-marriage (I worked there before marrying.) And then one dreadful day, they ran a massive update and I was now under my legal name. IT, who ran the directory, said HR had control over the content. HR insisted I could only be listed by my legal name. My boss and my boss’s boss tried applying pressure but got nowhere.

      I now work somewhere else- and it literally took one phone call to get an alias set up.

    10. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Replying late and with sympathy as a fellow middle-namer. When I graduated from grad school, I found out they were only going to put First Last on my diploma (because of their own error omitting my middle name in my file). To get my actual name on my diploma, I had to hand in a notarized form “changing” my name. I filled out the form as “old name: First Middle Last, new name: First Middle Last,” because my name was and is my name. The notary was like, ”Umm…I can’t sign this. The old and new names can’t be the same. We have to pretend you’re adding a middle name.” UGGHH. At least I got the right diploma.

    11. Princesa Zelda*

      I have the same problem at my job too, although I’m the only person with my slightly-unusual first and middle names. Sympathy vibes!

  102. Wing Leader*

    I don’t have a question this week so I’m popping in to tell an entertaining story!

    A few years back, I worked in a general staff type role in a hospital. One day, a young woman comes up to the counter and says she has a job interview, so I let my manager know. He says okay and heads back to the office to grab her resume.

    In the meantime, while she’s just standing there at our counter, the phone rings. I answer it, and it’s hospital security. They ask if we have a young woman there that has a job interview. Uhhh, yeah.

    They then say that this woman assaulted another hospital staff member on her way in and they have been looking for her. Apparently she did this because the staff member was “in her way” and she “had a job interview to get to.” (So they at least knew she was interviewing somewhere).

    Right about then, my manager is coming back out of the office. So, I told him to pick up the phone and tried my best to signal for him to do it now before he interviewed this girl, and luckily he got it. After that, he went ahead and interviewed her (we had to keep it normal until security got there because they were afraid she’d run off otherwise).

    Needless to say, she didn’t get the job.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Wooowwwwwww. Talk about a serious lack of judgement!

      To be fair, I’ve never seen any job interview tips/training that *says* you can’t push people out of your way in the building you’re interviewing in (hahaha…..)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Gumption! “Get out of my way; nothing’s gonna stop me from getting to this interview!”

        (Imagine if it had been one of the people she was scheduled to interview with!)

    4. Pam*

      I had a student in my office once- an office on the far side of the elevator from everyone else.

      He was returning from some academic problems, so we were discussing transcripts, classes to sign up for, etc. The conversation was perfectly normal and appropriate, until campus police came to my door. Apparently, he had threatened some other students.

  103. Gut check*

    Our organization recently created two new positions in my division. This will double the size our of team – right now, it’s just me and my boss.

    The request from our department to create these positions has been public information since April (contained in the org’s proposed budget), and they have now been “official” now for a full month since the budget was approved.

    My boss hasn’t said one word to me about any of this, which I find really strange and also kind of insulting. Am I off base in thinking that he should have talked to me about the changes to our team, or are my expectations unreasonable?

    1. anon1*

      I mean…a little justified because it’s literally just you two and it’s a big change but ultimately, he’s the boss and unless you are involved in the hiring process in some way, then I don’t see why you would need to be kept in the loop about this outside of “here is how your duties will change” – which is something I would want and feel like I should know. There could be a reason your not privy to on why your division is expanding that doesn’t mean anything negative for you. Or maybe there is something that needs to be done admin-wise, and hiring won’t take place until the need for these two positions is solidified.

      Can you ask the boss “Hey, I noticed we are potentially getting some new hires and I was wondering how will our workflow change when we bring in people for the two new positions’?

      1. Asta*

        I disagree. This is a major change that will alter the dynamics of your team and it’s bad management practice not to mention it.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Two thoughgrs:

      1) Your manager may have assumed you knew ( since it’s public internally). Or maybe they meant to say something, but other work took priority.

      2) Given how slow hiring can go even before starting to screen, maybe your manager made the call to not distract you with the slow moving process until it was further along.

      If this was part of a larger pattern of poor communication, maybe worth being annoyed. Otherwise, I think let it go.

  104. Ignoring Distractions*

    I have a bit of a weird question. I sit right by the bathrooms and I’ve noticed a coworker going multiple times a day. I am aware this is None Of My Business, but now that I’ve noticed it I can’t un-notice it and I’m finding it very distracting. Moving to a new space is not an option. Any suggestions for putting this out of my head?

    2. Arielle*

      I’m confused about what’s causing the distraction. Doesn’t everybody go to the bathroom multiple times a day? You’d hate working with me – I’m seven months pregnant and it’s not unusual to go multiple times an HOUR.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yeah, I think we need more details, because if it really is simply a matter of frequency, then you need to get headphones or a screen or something. I’m not pregnant and I’ve been known to go to the restroom six or seven times a day, sometimes more and I don’t think I’m super unusual.

      2. anon1*

        They seem to be describing someone who they feel doesn’t have a reason (??) to be going to the bathroom so often. I think if they worked with you it would be fine since “oh, pregnant! kidneys are working hard!” – it’s impossible that there isn’t a constant stream of people using the restroom during the day. They are honing in on one person’s frequency.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Does that make a difference, though? There are all kinds of reasons to use the bathroom a lot throughout the day.

          1. anon1*

            No, it doesn’t make a difference and that’s the problem. OP noticing this one colleague’s usage rates is a little odd and it sounds like they would be satisfied if there was Reasons^TM. Which they don’t. This ‘distraction’ that they can’t ignore sounds like nosiness.

            I am also in a similar situation where the men’s room specifically is in my office’s unavoidable line of sight to the point, where if I look up, eye contact with whoever is there is unavoidable yet I have never been distracted by anyone’s usage because it’s none of my business.

    3. Four lights*

      Instead of saying to yourself ” Don’t think about it brain!” say to yourself calmly. “Oh, there goes X to the bathroom” and move on.

      I find that trying to squash things I don’t want to think about just makes them appear more.

    4. Cog in the Machine*

      I feel your pain – I share a (very thin) wall with the bathroom.
      Is there any way to wear headphones or use a white noise machine?

  105. carrie heffernan*

    I applied for an associate director role a couple weeks and had a chat with the recruiter earlier this week. I did some research and when she asked me about salary I said $150, which is in line for a director role. I am in a manager role (no direct reports) and she said 150 was way outside their range and what would be the bottom number so I said 130 and she said that was still outside the range. Now I am wondering if I am being overpaid by my current company or they just don’t have the budget/are unaware of the going rate for a director. Either way I am quite sure they will not be moving forward with me, which is okay. (btw current salary for me is in the low 120s)

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      See, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier this week! If they would just tell you the range, you wouldn’t be in this position in the first place. Boo. Sorry to hear it, and I hope you get another great opportunity soon!

      1. carrie heffernan*

        thank you! luckily my current job is fine/secure but the associate director role seemed like a great opportunity.

    2. Reba*

      Maybe a “director-level” at their place is not as high up as it is in other organizations? I feel like Director is one of those things, perhaps not as bad as “Vice President,” that can be widely applied to roles of really different responsibilities.

    3. Sam Foster*

      Only way to know if you are overpaid or they’re unaware is to have robust market data which is generally not available to the public. The information on Indeed and Glassdoor is pretty much useless because of regional differences and differences in what a “director” is at each company.

  106. Matilda Jefferies*

    What do candidates typically ask in a second interview? This is my first time interviewing for a manager position, and my first-ever second interview, for any position. I know everything I need to know about the organization, the team, and the work, and I’ve already asked the Magic Question (the hiring manager was very impressed!). What else would you want to know in this context? Or if you were interviewing a potential first-time manager, what would you like her to ask you?

    1. Nicki Name*

      Is the second interview with a different group of people? Has it been described as a different kind of interview from the first?

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Same group of people – the hiring manager and two peers. They’ve asked me to prepare a presentation on how I would do a key part of the job. That part is easy, but I’d like to have some questions for them as well if possible!

        1. foxing in the stacks*

          Second interview is when I like to dial into how I’d fit with the team / if it’d be a good team fit. Some questions I used in my recent second interview:

          “Who has been covering this position’s duties in the absence, and [if they’re there] what would they like the successful candidate to know on day one to ease the transition?”

          “I’ve seen [project, committee, PR announcement, whatever – something relevant] on the [org chart, website, etc.] – can you go into more detail about how this position plays a role in that?”

          “What, in your opinion, will make the difference between a good [position] and a great [position]?”

          “If you could characterize the department in three personality traits, what would they be?”

          “What is something that [department/org/committee] is looking forward to in the next 1-5 years” (this one needs to be more customized to the role, basically, do they have a big project coming up? a potential re-org? etc.)

    2. Office Plant*

      What is the “Magic Question”? I’ve got a job interview coming up and would love to know what it is.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        “What would you say is the difference between someone who is good at this job, and someone who is great at it?”

        There’s lots more detail in the archives here – lots of people have used it very successfully!

  107. MCL*

    I am an internal candidate. I had a phone interview earlier this week, and was told that I would not be advancing to the next step (in-person interviews). I was pretty bummed because I thought the phone interview went well and thought I had a decent shot of making the cut, but I understand that the pool really impacts these decisions. So, I threw myself a tiny pity party last night and woke up pretty okay with things. After all, I’m pretty happy in my current role, so I’m not in a bad position. However, first thing this morning I was informed that due to another candidate withdrawing I will have an in-person interview after all! So, it’s been a roller coaster of a week.

  108. Fishsticks*

    I’m job hunting and had a question about salary negotiations. Say you ask for x more money and they can’t give you that and it has to be what you were offered, can you then ask for more vacation or something? And if yes, how do you phase it?

    Thanks all!

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      Sure, you can do this:

      “I was hoping for more like $XX per year. Any chance there’s room to move on salary?”

      “No”

      “Would you consider adding an extra week of vacation?”

    2. seller of teapots*

      Yup! It’s super normal. I think one possible phrasing, if they say budget is what it is: “I understand that. Is it possible to increase vacation to 3 weeks/year, instead?”

      I would avoid asking for money and, at the same time, offering vacation time instead. That isn’t very strong negotiation and may prompt them to just offer more vaca time.

      It’s also totally possible to ask for BOTH at the same time. I did that with this last position I took. This happened over email, but I think I wrote something like, “At my last role, I had xx vacation time and I would like to maintain that same amount. Also, I was hoping the salary would be closer to $xx”

      1. just a thought*

        Just to second that, I asked for both at the same time and ended up getting both! good luck

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      “I understand that salary is capped at 75,000 and there’s no room to budge there. Would you be open to increased PTO? I see you offer 2 weeks the first year, right now I have 3 weeks and I’d like to keep it at 3 weeks. Is that possible?”

      That’s how I’ve seen it worded for the most part for folks who have talked about being able to negotiate that extra benefit.

  109. House Tyrell*

    One of my friends, Jane, started their dream job about 6 weeks ago and they were so excited. Then last week, her job fired her because someone who was slightly more qualified (already had a license needed to advance, whereas my friend was taking her test later this year) applied so they fired Jane so they could hire the the person who applied later and get a refund on Jane’s licensing exam fee! I know that often when someone mentions “don’t feel bad about quitting because a job wouldn’t hesitate to get rid of you,” Allison says that’s not usually true, but this situation feels like exactly that. Anyway, her husband left work to be a full-time student, so she was their sole breadwinner and now she has to mark that she was fired before when she applies to jobs in the future. Does Jane qualify for unemployment since she was fired without cause and do y’all have any advice I can pass along to her on how to phrase the situation without trashing the organization, since they’re a pretty prominent org in her field so she still has to pretend like there are little to no hard feelings? Since she was still in her probationary period, they didn’t even let her finish out two more weeks to get pay and didn’t offer her severance.

    1. Psyche*

      First off, check if the organization is going to say they “fired” her or if it’s something like “didn’t pass probation”. If they aren’t going to report that she was fired, she doesn’t have to check that box. Generally, I believe that you do qualify for unemployment if you are fired without cause. She should definitely look into it.

      Since this was only six weeks, she can leave it off her resume and just not talk about it. However, if she does need to talk about it, she can say it wasn’t a good fit. It turned out that the job required someone with more experience. That is probably the most neutral way to phrase it.

      1. Jerk Store*

        Honestly, I feel like Jane’s best bet is to be completely honest if she needs to discuss this in future interviews, since she did nothing wrong. She definitely should not be bitter when she speaks about it, though.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        I agree that I would leave this off the resume; since it probably will come up (because they’ll ask why she left her previous job), she can explain it then if she wants to.

        I would explain it as: She received and accepted a new job offer, so resigned from previous job, and then the offer was withdrawn in favor of a candidate with a specific certification she hasn’t obtained yet but was planning to obtain.

    2. H.C.*

      Whether Jane qualifies for unemployment depends on the state eligibility requirements, though the situation looks dicey if she had voluntarily quit her ExJob for this “dream job” and was fired just 5-6 weeks in.

      Also, since Jane was only at this job for 5-6 weeks – it’s fine for her to leave this off her resume & during interviews. On the off chance that this is brought up (maybe post background check?), Jane can simply say that it was a situation that didn’t work out.

      1. H.C.*

        Also, agreed with Psyche that Jane should check if she was actually fired vs. being let go or not passing probation.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Since she only left her previous job 6-8 weeks ago, could she reach out to her former employer? They may not have filled her position yet. It’ll feel kind of awkward, but I’ve had coworkers leave and end up coming back (one literally just came back a couple weeks ago after leaving in December), and it was just fine!

    4. BRR*

      The requirements can vary for UE. She might not have been in that position long enough. I might go with “the company decided to refill the role with someone who already had X license.”

    5. ..Kat..*

      This company has treated Jane very poorly. AAM has several posts about asking for severance and a settlement on what this company will say if contacted (“laid off “ is what she should shoot for). Please google for these posts, they have great advice. Maybe consult an employment lawyer. She can argue that the company did not hire her in good faith (IANAL). Good luck to your friend.

  110. seller of teapots*

    So I sent a note to my boss checking in about my annual bonus, as the date had passed. Lots of apologies for missing the date ensued.

    Now my boss has asked for a meeting to “discuss bonuses, etc.” next week when I’m in the office. (I largely wfh.) This is an unusual enough request, I feel like this means I’m getting a promotion/big raise, especially in lieu of the huge success my team has had this past year.

    So first of all — yay!!

    Second of all — anything I should prepare for this meeting?

    1. House Tyrell*

      Definitely write up a document listing all of your accomplishments and how you contributed to team accomplishments, find out what the standard raise/bonus for your company is, and what the average salary in your field is and where you’d fall on the salary range for your role so you know what to aim and negotiate for with the list of accomplishments to back it up.

    2. irene adler*

      You might procure some data on current compensation for your position in your market (and for the anticipated promotion too!). Might also compile a list of your accomplishments, goals reached, performance figures achieved since last raise. Reason: suppose the big raise is smaller than you anticipate. Suppose the promotion comes with only a small raise. You’ll want to counter with facts. Have ’em ready.

      Hoping for the best for you!

      1. seller of teapots*

        eason: suppose the big raise is smaller than you anticipate. Suppose the promotion comes with only a small raise. You’ll want to counter with facts. ahh, such a good point!

    3. BeeGee*

      I know everyone’s reviews are handled differently, but I feel like most people have a general setup where your accomplishments are discussed, maybe some aspects of performance that could use improvement, any feedback about the company/role/management, and setting goals going forward. So I would be prepared to discuss various aspects of these at the meeting. If you feel like you’re not going to be compensated to the degree you feel you deserve, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to request a larger bonus or raise (Alison has great posts about how to negotiate compensation respectfully and intelligently, and I would refer to them!).

      1. seller of teapots*

        It’s funny, but I hadn’t thought of this as a review. Good call–that’s very appropriate and a helpful framing!!

  111. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    For a benefit to be fair, does it have to apply to everyone exactly equally?

    I work in higher education fundraising as a frontline fundraiser. This job is designed to be done remotely and involves quite a bit of travel. About half of the people in my division are in similar travel-heavy roles, and the rest of the team are split between those that don’t necessarily travel for work but there’s no reason they have to be at their desk, and those whose job functions require them to be at the office (office managers, gift processors, etc).

    We currently have no ability to work from home (except in extremely unusual situations like a plumbing emergency, and even then only for a half day at most). Our VP has stated this is because not everyone would be able to participate in a work from home policy, therefore it is not fair for anyone to have the ability to work from home. He is very committed to a fair and equitable workplace, to the extent that when an office reshuffle results in a position which usually fills a cubicle, getting a private office, he will have the doors removed so that when that role eventually ends back up in a cubicle that person won’t feel like they’re getting downgraded. His version of “summer hours” is that all staff -hourly and salary- have the option to work an extra hour Mon-Thurs and then leave at noon on Friday, for four weeks of the summer. Hardly what I consider a perk.

    Our VP recently initiated a discussion with the entire division about how to prevent burnout, and one topic that came up over and over was the ability to work from home at least occasionally. He countered that it wouldn’t be fair to those whose jobs require them to be in the office full time. One of those staff members suggested exploring a different benefit, such as working 4-10s or doing the 80-9 thing (getting 80 hours worth of work in 9 business days with one day off every other week). The conversation ended with no resolution, so I doubt anything will change in the foreseeable future.

    My question is, is it wrong of me to want a benefit that not everyone can access? I feel like every job has its own pros and cons; it’s true that not every team member could work from home, but not everyone has to spend time away from their families or come to after-hours events like I do. As far as I know, most of the people in my division who have office-dependent roles sought those roles specifically because they DON’T require time outside the standard 8-5, and I haven’t heard any of them suggest they’d be upset if work-from-home privileges were established. This is an increasingly standard benefit and I feel it’s short sighted to refuse to offer what employees are asking for, just because some people’s roles require office presence. (If it matters, we offer market salaries and very good benefits, so people are happy to work here.)

    1. Youth*

      My job has WFH days once a week, but there are some employees who can’t take advantage of them every week or any week. The rest of us still get them though. If you can do parts of your job from home, I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to even if others can’t…

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      No. Fair is not the same thing as equal. If it were, my employer would let every person without dependents pick out a couple of non-dependents to cover on their insurance. And all offices would have windows.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        So true. Like, for example, how my university offers tuition reimbursement but a) you have to have a bachelor’s to get hired in this department and b) we only offer 2 very niche master’s program, so 90% of the staff can’t take advantage.

    3. fposte*

      Is it wrong to want it? Of course not. But is your real question is this sufficient reason for them to deny this perk to everybody? To which I would also say “of course not.” But unfortunately that’s not going to get you anything.

      I think your VP has some complicated psychology going on here. Taking the doors off a single private office doesn’t demonstrate a commitment to equality, and I don’t believe for a minute his BS that it’s so they won’t feel downgraded if they go back to a cubicle; it’s because he’s uncomfortable with the disparity between cubicle and office. (But he didn’t take the doors off of everybody’s office, did he? Somehow he lived with that unfairness.)

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          This reminds me of something I read on a different board, where a poster’s mother-in-law had two children to feed, and had one serving of cole slaw and one serving of potato salad. Instead of giving one kid cole slaw and one kid potato salad, she mixed them together so each got the same disgusting, but equal, mixture. That’s what happens when people confuse equal with fair.

          1. fposte*

            That is also hilarious. (And did MIL not have spoons? You can give each kid two half-servings.)

            Though now I’m also considering a scenario where kids had bickered all day about who got more and MIL had just absolutely had it.

    4. Catsaber*

      I don’t think the same benefit has to be accessible for everyone, because of the differences in job requirements. I work at a university, and there are just some jobs that can’t be done remotely. So to be equitable, they should 1) be up front with staff and new hires that they can’t receive a certain benefit as part of the job 2) do something else that is more feasible.

      A lot of people at my university love the 4-10 schedule, particularly the admin support staff, that have to be on campus. But the 4-10 schedule isn’t really accessible to me, because it would cause a HUGE headache with my childcare situation. But WFH is accessible. So it just needs some creative thinking. Things don’t have to be 100% across the board in the same way in order to be “fair”.

    5. Psyche*

      Most benefits don’t apply to everyone equally. Paid maternity only helps women who have kids, spousal coverage on health insurance only helps those who are married, vision insurance only helps those who need glasses.

      Different jobs have different requirements. They also result in different stresses. Try talking to him about the difference between equity and equality. Treating everyone equally is generally not the best way because everyones needs are different.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        “Different jobs have different requirements” – yes, exactly!

        Though I’d argue paid maternity helps all of society because it promotes health and well-being for the newest members of humanity and their caretakers ;)

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      I worked for a company that told us we couldn’t ever work from home because “the janitors couldn’t work from home”. The jerkiness extended far past this policy, but yea, jerk.

      Some jobs can be done remotely, some jobs can’t. It’s ridiculous to blanket a policy based on one group’s requirements.

      equal =/= equitable

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Okay, my response would be “the janitor doesn’t have to have a degree” or “the janitor never has to work more than 40 hours a week without overtime pay” and therefore it’s not fair for me to have those requirements.

        1. anon1*

          >the janitor doesn’t have to have a degree

          Of all the arguments you could make for this point, this one was a Choice for a lot of reasons but as an example, our office assistant doesn’t have a degree outside of high school and she could easily telework whereas I cannot (& I have a degree). A degree has nothing to do with it and plenty of people are stuck doing unpaid overtime, degree or not.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Yeah, I don’t mean “people with degrees should be able to telework.” I mean different jobs have different requirements. Some require butts-in-seats. Some don’t. Some require degrees. Some don’t. The requirements for one job shouldn’t be imposed on people with other jobs.

        2. A Simple Narwhal*

          It’s not about qualifications or pay, it’s that to do their job, a janitor needed to physically be in the building, whereas all my coworkers and I only needed a computer with an internet connection to do ours.

          And all the logic and reasoning in the world wouldn’t make the higher ups budge, even during a hurricane when the roads were closed (“sorry, you’ll have to take a personal day”) or when there was an active shooter in the area and the police had advised non-essential personnel against leaving their homes (“I don’t know why you just can’t come in”).

    7. Catsaber*

      I missed this the first time, but you said not everyone’s job requires the extensive travel of yours, which includes long hours and being away from family. So yes! you should definitely get to work from home, because you’re taking a “hit” with the travel, whereas someone else can sign up for a different job that doesn’t take that hit. So maybe they don’t get WFH, but then they don’t ever have to worry about being away from their families.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Exactly! And as you said in your previous comment, there’s nothing wrong with offering different perks to different jobs as long as it’s made clear upfront. If someone is looking for a job with WFH flexibility, they can self-select out just like if the insurance coverage or salary or travel requirement didn’t meet their needs.

        My small team is actually the most flexible, but I know other directors in my division will require their staff to come back to the office after flying into the airport, even if that means they’d walk in at 4pm on a Friday. That level of inflexibility serves no purpose other than to drive down morale (and I’m sure it’s a total coincidence that that’s the team with the highest level of staff turnover).

        1. seller of teapots*

          Yup! I work in sales (as you can tell from my user name!) and there’s a lot of flexibility in most sales roles because a) you have to travel and b) if you don’t make your number there’s a good chance you’ll lose your job. The trade-off for what some may see is pressure is the freedom. Fair =/= equal

    8. Lilysparrow*

      Of course it’s not wrong of you to want this, or to advocate for it.

      That’s no guarantee you’ll get it.

      I wonder, does your VP believe that every person in the organization should make exactly the same compensation package, or should that perhaps be tied in some way to the specifics of the work they do?

      Does he believe everyone should keep exactly the same hours?

      That everyone should be eligible for tenure, even if they aren’t teaching?

      He’s being ridiculous.

  112. HouseOfErasure*

    Just discovered this website! I love it. There is some great information on here.

    I went on my 2nd interview for this one position yesterday and I am really hoping I get it!

      1. HouseOfErasure*

        Thank you! I was nervous because I thought I was interviewing with one doctor but apparently I ended up interviewing with 2 doctors and a nurse! Phew….

  113. Sanja sanja*

    So I went to an interview for a customer success manager position. The tasks seemed pretty basic customer service stuff but they asked for a university degree and foreign language skills (both of which I have) so I became interested. ‘Very high earning opportunities’ was odd in the ad but where I am there are very strict laws for how to pay overtime so I thought it might be that
    Nope. The recruiter told me it was telesales. Point blank. I saw wish they’d included it in ad. I mean I had my suspicions but still. Is it common for Customer Success Manager to mean telesales?

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like you’re not in the U.S., so maybe that’s an established term where you are, but anything with the word “success” in it sounds like sales to me.

      1. Sanja sanja*

        Where I am, customer success usually means being super proficient in the software the company is selling. You are indeed measured on customer retention, among other things, but you are contacted when someone has a question about the product. It can be advisory sales but not telesales. Or so I thought.
        I talked to some people in my network who work for companies with a customer success department and they confirmed that it is not telesales (making 40-50 phonecalls a day) but has elements of training, customer service etc.
        Interesting how position names can mean different things in different regions.

    2. Lumen*

      Every time I look for a job, I’ll find certain companies that post a dozen ads for things like Customer Success Manager or HR Partner or Business Development… titles all over the map, essentially. And then I will research the company a bit and discover that every single job they post involves standing in grocery store parking lots selling whatever random products they’re contracted with.

      In some companies, a Customer Success Manager is the manager of the customer service team. But it’s not shocking to me that you ran into this.

  114. Lucette Kensack*

    There is a professional development opportunity currently available at my organization. It’s a long-term investment of two years of training, resulting in a certification. The skills developed would be useful for my current work, and the certification (and skills) would be valuable for the rest of my career.

    … the problem is that I really, really don’t like my colleague who runs the training program. She’s not definitively awful — lots of other people love working with her, but she just rubs me the wrong way. She’s incredibly prickly and doesn’t communicate clearly, which is a difficult combination — she misunderstands people or feels misunderstood and responds with bristling frustration. She also has, somehow, been able to skate her way to success in the organization while blatantly failing to meet her KPIs.

    So I think I’m not going to do it, because the idea of putting myself into closer contact with her for the next two years — especially in a subordinate “learning” role — makes me cringe. But it’s a good opportunity that I’d have to pay a lot for in any other context. Does anyone want to argue that I should go for it, despite my personal feelings about my colleague? I’d love to be pushed to think about this from another angle.

    1. Reba*

      I mean, how many hours per week are you going to be spending with this person?

      Would it help to imagine that doing the training is going to help you eventually get away from her into another job? Or to tell yourself that learning what not to do is also part of the training? :)

      I’d go for it — from what you’ve written here, seems like the payoff would outweigh the annoyance. (Easy for me to say, though!)

      1. valentine*

        Either way, you are paying, and you may pay money and end up with someone like this, no? So which cost is better for you, the particular person (including the toll on your health, but things happen, so, they may be replaced) or the money?

    2. Colette*

      How many people are participating?

      It is possible to learn from people you don’t like. It’s also possible that you’ll get to know her better and learn to like her more, or that she will be replaced by someone else 3 weeks in. Will the advantages you’d get outweigh the annoyance?

    3. Insurance mom*

      Nope. You are going to make yourself crazy trying to get along. There will be other opportunities.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        There may not be, especially free training of this type (these are usually employee funded in a lot of cases if you’re doing the training I think you’re doing). Anyway, as the others up thread asked, how much time would you really be spending with her? Will she have actual management authority over you (e.g., the ability to fire, discipline, or otherwise have major input on your yearly review)?

        If the answer is no, then you should suck up your distaste for this person, especially if the training only takes up a few hours a week for two years, and do the class. Don’t allow somebody else to impede your growth in this field and your potential to advance once you get that certification – it’s shortsighted.

    4. Asta*

      Questions to think about:,

      How will you feel if you turn down the opportunity and then this colleague leaves or changes role and someone else takes over? How much are you likely to kick yourself?

      Will you get the same opportunity again?

      Can you raise concerns about this person with anyone?

  115. Sharkie / anon for this*

    Hi guys. Thanks for all the advice from my post last week. I realized I was super burned out and took today off. I am very type a and have a hard time relaxing when I’m not at work when the office is open, so I’m kinda proud I did this for me. Thanks for all the advice ❤️ Y’all keep me sane

  116. MeanHRLady*

    I’m looking for a script to let employees know they should come to me if they have questions about an email that I’ve sent, and not the person who used to handle human resources.

    Some background: The owner of my company recently bought controlling interest in another business. When he saw how badly the employee paperwork was being handled, he made me the HR manager of the new business. Today I sent an email to all the employees introducing myself. I explained that the files were missing necessary documents and that I would come in next week to update their paperwork. A few of them then contacted the person who used to handle the personnel files with questions. I’m pretty upset that they didn’t call me first. The person they contacted actually works in my building-not at the location with the other employees, so it’s not a case of it being convenient to ask her. I know that there is a polite way to tell these employees that they have to deal with me now and it’s not acceptable to contact their co-worker anymore, but I just can’t think of one right now.

    1. Four lights*

      I know there have been some questions regarding the previous email and the paperwork. Please direct any questions to me and not X, as he will no longer be handling these matters.

      Also, make sure X directs everyone back to you.

      1. MeanHRLady*

        I came up with something very similar, but second guessed myself. And you’re right, I should make sure she directs the questions to me instead of trying to help them herself. Thanks so much for the script.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since you’re new, this is hopefully something that’s only temporary. I would first assume that they weren’t given instructions by someone else that you’re the new contact, so they reached out to their familiar contact instead. The appropriate thing would be for the former contact to respond to them saying “You’ll need to speak with MeanHRLady about this, she’s handling HR now.”

      Right now, you’re really new and if you start cracking a whip at people and correcting them without a lot of greasing of the wheels first, there’s a good chance there’s a bad first impression that will form.

      If the old HR person is just forwarding things to you or giving you the message, you can respond saying “Sally told me you reached out to her about my email, I wanted to let you know that I’m your primary HR contact now so please let me know if you have any questions or concerns to address.”

      The way to go about it is to just correct their behaviors and approach them in a helpful manner.

      1. MeanHRLady*

        I think your assumption is correct. I’m sure the manager has failed to tell everyone about the changes that have taken place. And you’re right, I don’t want to go in cracking a whip. I think I’ll apologize for my confusing email and request that they contact me from this point forward. Greasing wheels is not my strong suit, but I can see that it’s the right approach in this situation. Thanks for your help and the script.

        1. Insurance mom*

          And reach out to old hr person maybe thanking them for assistance in transition time?

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I totally understand! I only have these instincts to grease wheels because I grew up with difficult personalities, so I learned how to [for lack of a better term] manipulate them to do what I want. Not in terms of taking advantage of them but to get them to be nice and not cause my life to be annoying ;)

          I learned to fist assume no malice. Give them the benefit of the doubt and usually about 7 out of 10 times, they’re just in that learning phase. They need to be trained that you’re the go-to person for that. The other 3 or so people will always be an issue and after you’re settled, feel free to get a little snappy with them ;)

    3. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Janet! MeanHRLady just sent this email saying my paperwork is missing?!?! What have you done with all those forms we filled? I am not doing that excersize all over again, you have them so you deal with it. Regards, Brad.

  117. Andrea*

    Why do some employers have you apply on the job board site but then immediately contact you to apply on their website? For example I applied for a job on Indeed. It had me post my resume and answer some questions. Then the next day I got an email and message to go to their website to apply. Everything was the same as was on indeed. Most companies that have their own site will just redirect you from indeed to their website. Why do they do this. It annoys me because I have to spend 2 times the time applying for one job. I am getting unemployment so I have to do so many applications beach week, but I can only count one of the applications.

    Also, I would like to know if this is a red flag. I applied last night for a position. This morning I wake up to an email basically demanding that I come in today for a job interview and to fill out an application. I already filled out he application online. Is this odd to expect someone to come in in less than 24 hours?

    1. Lumen*

      My fave are the ones where not only do you send them your resume or fill out other information, but then you have to ‘complete your application’ by creating an account in their system. I am not currently desperate, so when I run into this it automatically disqualifies the job for me. It is so frustrating.

      Also, it’s not necessarily that odd to ask a job seeker to come in quickly (they might be trying to hire fast and are seeing if you can come in immediately) but a lot depends on tone and whether they understand that not everyone’s schedule is that open/free. If you tell them you’re not available today but would love to schedule something for early next week, see how they respond. If they flip out, then yeah: red flag. Don’t work for those people.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of companies have weird red tape involved, it’s partly to weed out resume spammers but it’s awful and really just runs away people who would otherwise have been great employees.

      If they operate where they want you in there in less than 24hours and it’s not just a request/inquiry if it would be possible with the understanding it’s probably not do-able, then they probably have a high turnover rate and their inflexibility and demanding nature sure probably has something to do with that!

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ugh I hate those, last time I was job hunting I decided to use job boards/sites as search tools and then directly apply through the company website.

      Also any application that makes you upload a resume and then also enter your resume content into separate boxes piece by piece can go straight to hell.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        last time I was job hunting I decided to use job boards/sites as search tools and then directly apply through the company website.

        This is what I do. In prior job searches in years long past, I would apply directly through job boards and rarely hear a peep. Once I skipped them and just went to the company website and applied there, I started getting way more engagement (I was also able to determine when opportunities were actually available – so many of these job boards have expired postings on them).

  118. Onthejobhunt*

    How do you stay motivated during a job search?
    I recently starting job searching. The people and environment I work in now are wonderful, but it’s no longer offering me the growth and salary I need (living in an expensive city and working in a field compensated by experience). I’ve delayed the search for awhile, but it’s becoming clear the opportunities just isn’t there in my current role. My previous job before this (first one out of school) was toxic, and I was pushed out by my former boss to scapegoat for his own questionable actions. So I’m probably more attached to my current role as a result of that negative experience.
    Now that I am job searching, I’m finding it hard to stay motivated in the face of 1. endless rejections, and 2. guilt of leaving a company that have been great to me. Logically I know this is a step I have to take, but how do I pump myself up to search everyday when the process could take months? Any tips?

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      I, too, am on the hunt.

      I don’t do it every day though. Because I have a job that isn’t imminently damaging (similar problems to you + inept management), I am trying to apply to 1-2 jobs per week, so that I can keep my sanity. This translates into an hour or two of searching for positions and another hour or two applying, now that I’ve got my materials in order. I started off applying constantly and it was making me crazy, so now I’ve scaled back to a more sustainable plan. Setting a basic goal like that also helps me take the emotion out of it, for some reason. Best of luck to you!

      1. BeeGee*

        This! I would say “quality over quantity” as a priority to start. I know when I was working full time and applying to jobs, I probably wasn’t dedicating enough time to adjusting/creating a good quality resume and cover letter for the positions I applied for, which probably was hurting my chances of being interviewed at all. Secondly, steadily apply to enough jobs so that you’re not tying all your hopes up to getting one job or waiting weeks between interviews and obsessing over it. Again, that’s not to say to just slam as many applications out as possible, but one or two jobs a week should help take the pressure off of waiting to hear back and being disappointed if you don’t hear back or are rejected.

        And don’t feel bad! You have to do what’s right for you and your career over a nice company that isn’t meeting those requirements.

  119. JustaTech*

    You have never heard such whining, complaining, griping or carrying on as people who have been moved into a brand new office space with … no storage space.

    Hopefully the storage will show up next week. Because otherwise essential work documents will just have to live in stacks on the floor by our desks.

    (They also forgot coat hooks, bulletin boards, white boards, the microwave, and anywhere to eat besides our desks.)

    But we did all get nifty sit-stand desks, so hopefully that will be nice.

    1. L.S. Cooper*

      Ugh, this is gonna be my company in March. I’m sincerely hoping I won’t be working here any more once the move happens, but the loss of storage space is going to suuuuck.

    2. Grace Less*

      Oh, this is relatable! As much as I abhor committees, having the office move led solely by an exec with a private office means that a LOT of essentials for worker bees are overlooked.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh, that would be impossible!
        Honestly we couldn’t do hot desking because we work in a industry that is still very much bound up in paper (for regulatory and practical reasons) so that really truly wouldn’t work.
        The rioting would be epic.

  120. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

    When you apply for jobs in the Canadian federal government, you have the option to self-identify as belonging to certain groups for Employment Equity purposes (women, aboriginal people, visible minorities, people with disabilities).

    The Employment Equity Act defines persons with disabilities as “persons who have a long-term or recurring physical, mental, sensory, psychiatric or learning impairment and who
    (a) consider themselves to be disadvantaged in employment by reason of that impairment, or
    (b) believe that a employer or potential employer is likely to consider them to be disadvantaged in employment by reason of that impairment,
    and includes persons whose functional limitations owing to their impairment have been accommodated in their current job or workplace”

    I don’t necessarily feel as though I qualify under that definition, but they list anxiety and chronic pain as examples of disabilities, both of which I have (along with panic disorder and PTSD). And the chronic pain is from a degenerative condition, so at some point I’m definitely going to qualify even if I don’t particularly feel like I do now.

    I feel as though it would be unethical to self-identify as a person with a disability, and I haven’t been doing so, but am I wrong?

    Also, even though we have a duty to accommodate, I’ve been in the federal government long enough to hear about some serious failures to accommodate employees with disabilities. Self-identifying as a member of an Employment Equity group should theoretically give a person’s application a little more weight, but in practice…I have my doubts. Is there anyone here who can speak to this a little?

    1. Colette*

      I think it’s up to you, but it would seem to me that all of the conditions you list could be considered to qualify under b, and if you agree, I would definitely suggest clicking that box. But I also suspect that the question doesn’t affect your ability to get accommodations – I think it’s there for statistical purposes to make sure the federal government is hiring a diverse workforce. People get diagnosed with disabilities all the time (including after they have been hired), and the government still needs to accommodate them.

      1. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

        Oh, yeah, it’s not about getting accommodations. What I meant was more “theoretically this is supposed to help me but I suspect I’ll actually be discriminated against in hiring if I check this box, based on the stories I’ve heard about how people with disabilities are treated”.

        1. Colette*

          I haven’t seen anything like that (although I’m sure it happens – there are jerks everywhere). But typically when systems ask those questions when applying, that information isn’t available to people looking at applications – people who want to discriminate have easier ways to do so, unfortunately.

          1. OysterMan*

            Yes exactly this. Over the years, I’ve had a couple of fights with my Talent Ops team to not open that data up to recruiters and hiring managers. Every single time the fight makes it to compliance and legal, they’re horrified that Talent Ops wants to open that data up to people who influence recording.

            Caveat: this is the US. I’m not sure how it works in Canada.

    2. Holly*

      Not Canadian, but just want to say that in American too there is a *legal* definition of ADA. Decide whether your condition fits the *legal* definition they have shared with you – don’t worry about wider society’s definition of what is a disability and what is not. You may be entitled to *legal* protections aside from that.

    3. moosetracks*

      So two things at play here, whether you feel like it’s ethical to self-identify as a disabled person and whether it’s going to hurt your chances at a job. I have no clue at the second, but as for the first:

      Most disability rights activists ascribe to the social model of disability, which means that people are disabled by barriers in society. Those barriers absolutely apply to mental illnesses and chronic pain. Gatekeeping who’s “really” disabled or who’s disabled “enough” hurts everybody (I know many disabled people who have faced harassment for parking in disabled parking spaces or using mobility aids).

      I think there’s also a hesitation for a lot of people to identify as disabled (note, I use identity first language and not person first language, another really personal choice) because disabled is perceived as an offensive word,

      Whether you want to self-identify as disabled is a personal choice, but it’s definitely not unethical to do so.

      1. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

        Thank you! I agree 100% with your point about gatekeeping and I hope I didn’t inadvertently offend.

        I also don’t believe that there’s anything offensive about being disabled or about being referred to as such. I just hesitate to claim an oppressed identity when my conditions are well-managed and I don’t currently experience much in the way of barriers (an inability to stand for long periods of time aside). I especially hesitate to claim it for an extra advantage in hiring processes.

        1. moosetracks*

          No offense taken! My point was don’t gatekeep yourself / internalize the gatekeeping of others.

          I think if you’re concerned about being discriminated against because of a medical condition – that’s what that law is there for. And facing discrimination is absolutely a kind of barrier, too.

    4. Koala dreams*

      Not familiar with Canadian workplaces, but I take a) to mean that you are empowered to judge for yourself if you considered yourself as having a disability or not. So I wouldn’t considered it un-ethical either way. If you don’t feel like it, you don’t have to check that box, and if you would like to, you can. Obviously it’s not that easy because what labels we apply to ourselves have a psychologial impact, but just because some people would check the box and some wouldn’t it doesn’t mean that your answer is wrong.

    5. Bagpuss*

      If it is federal government, are there any guidelines you can look at which would tell you whether the information would be available to the interviewer?

      On the issue of self-identifying, I don’t think it is unethical. You know how your conditions affect you, giving specified definitions is partly so people can self-identify.
      Also – I think that when you have something long term, like chronic pain, it becomes your normal and and you underestimate how much it affects you compared to someone without it. So while you may be feeling you aren’t really disabled enough to ‘count’, from an objective position you may be more disabled than you think, if that makes sense.

      (I have chronic pain, and I don’t generally identify as having a disability, but every so often something happens which makes me realise just how many ways there are that I accommodate it, and that those things aren’t necessary for most others)

  121. nagi*

    I don’t know what to do with my career…

    Not really sure how to frame my question, but basically, I’d like to switch from working in the non profit arts industry to something in the for profit side? I went straight from undergrad to grad school to get my Masters in Art Administration (hey, grad school was free! Plus, the school gave me a very generous living stipend). After I graduated, I completed two full-time internships – one with a very internationally renowned arts organization, and then a full year internship with an international art auction house. I am grateful for the connections that I made via these internships, which landed me my current entry level position doing donor events at a medium-sized museum.

    Continuing my career working in art development/fundraising would be the easiest and most natural trajectory, especially since the art philanthropy circle is quite small in my area. But the truth is that I don’t like being a fundraiser. Plus, I live in one of the most expensive cities in the country, and a non profit fundraiser salary just isn’t enough.

    I *think* I would really like to work in communications/marketing in the for profit side (I have experience doing PR for a small gallery before), but honestly, I have no idea how to break into that industry or how to break out of the arts non profit field in general. Any ideas?

    1. BeeGee*

      I think if you want to make a shift to a communications/marketing role, you will probably have to work on getting an MBA or some sort of additional certification. It’s just going to be hard to get your foot in the door at places given your background and experience. But don’t let it discourage you! For instance, my mom was a chemist who got her MBA and specialized in IT and completely changed her career, and a successful career at that!

    2. irene adler*

      Are there professional organizations in the marketing field or communications field that you could contact? They would have ideas for you on what to do to break into the field, what you need to know to do so, where the jobs are, etc.
      As marketing and communications are rather general, you might have to narrow this into specific industries before finding the professional organization that will have the information that helps you. So you’ll need to do some googling and reaching out for where to look for such organizations.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      My first question would be what exactly you do/did in the roles you’ve held. Did they involve any kind of writing? Video? Public speaking? Advertising? Etc? Since you don’t have a degree in a related field, you would need to be able to show examples of your work and how those skills would apply to your new gig.

      Also, to be totally honestly, while I think it might be better than a nonprofit salary, entry-level marketing work does not pay great. Look into Glassdoor and some other sites to see what the “normal” salary is before you commit too deeply :)

      I’ve also always been salaried (not sure if that is the “norm” for the industry). Most weeks that works fine, but there’s probably a total of 6-8 weeks a year when I’m working A LOT of extra hours for an event, conference, recording session, etc. and there’s no extra pay since I’m salaried.

      What about finding or creating a communication volunteer role or internship at a museum/theatre/art gallery (or any place!) as a stepping stone in the direction you want to go? I started as a videographer for technical documentation (with a journalism degree, haha) but volunteered at a local animal shelter creating promotional graphics and videos, which helped move me all the way to marketing after a couple years.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        A little more of my “two cents” (which you can take or leave, as I’m by no means an expert on all things marketing):
        In my experience, these fields really value experience over degrees, so I actually don’t know if an MBA would be *that* helpful. A few courses (if you want to learn Adobe programs or a specific writing style or something) definitely are helpful. Not sure a whole new degree is needed though.

        Soft skills are HUGE. You worked in fundraising, so I imagine you’re pretty comfortable dealing with people ;) but I wouldn’t switch into this field if your goal is to deal with people less. You want to be able to speak confidently and warmly, put people at ease, and initiate conversations easily. If you have good soft skills, and good writing skills, the rest is pretty teachable (in my opinion). But I spend time “coldcalling customers for testimonials, putting video subjects at ease so they sound natural on camera, contacting customers who left us a crappy review or wrote a nasty comment on our Facebook and turn that situation into a positive experience for them (if possible)… etc etc.

  122. Tigoskah*

    Hi all! Could I get some feedback on these rewrites for my resume, please? Here are the bullet points for my first job:
    – Consistently produced 10 to 20 marketing packages weekly with almost no errors
    – Promptly entered all returned paper schedules into online scheduling system
    – Served as primary point of contact in office for colleagues on the road, responding to their requests as soon as possible
    – Appointed to group tasked with writing/editing standard operating procedures explaining a new software

    I’m trying to highlight the ways in which I did excellent work without straying into subjective territory that hiring managers might disregard. Do those points seem to toe that line well? Any feedback I can use to make them stronger?

    Thank you!

    1. Colette*

      I like the first 3 (although if you can quantify what “promptly” means, I would do that). The last one is more about something that happened to you rather than something you did. Did you write procedures explaining a new software? Or were you appointed to the group but didn’t do anything?

      1. Tigoskah*

        Agreed on all points, thank you! I was selected to join the group and I did contribute, but it was definitely a team effort of writing the different steps and editing things for clarity. I thought I’d add it to try and highlight my attention to detail and/or the trust my managers had in my writing/editing/proofreading, but I definitely agree that right now it’s worded like something that happened to me and I went along with. Maybe I should leave it off the resume and address the skills in a cover letter instead. Thank you again!

    2. EmilyG*

      How many colleagues on the road did you support? I’d add that because the number would probably sound impressive, like you were juggling a lot of stuff.

      In the first bullet, “with almost no errors” sounds weak to me. Maybe to someone in your field the specific type of errors is obvious, but the context isn’t too clear to me. Could you just leave that clause out and let the number of marketing packages speak for themselves? Or “Consistently produced 10-20 marketing packages weekly that required only light updates from my boss before going to print”? Or if the vast majority of them had zero errors, discount those and say “Consistently produced 8-16 error-free marketing packages weekly”? “Consistently produced 10-20 detailed, high-quality marketing packages weekly”?

      2. Tigoskah*

        Oh those are all excellent suggestions, thank you! I see what you mean, but I’m hesitant to include the number of colleagues I supported. The two I directly communicated with the most were who I initially meant, but I was also called out into the field to support the actual team – probably somewhere around fifteen people. I don’t want to say I supported fifteen folks and sound like I’m exaggerating, but two sounds far too small if someone is unfamiliar with the company structure (plus we were in a small town, which doesn’t help!). I’ll definitely keep it in mind and see if I can better express that point.

        I love your ideas for the first bullet! Those marketing packages consisted of pulling exact amounts of different reports and informational handouts, and retyping things like company name, date and time, address, etc to fill out posters – and the only times I ever let errors through were when they’d been entered wrong in the system I was referencing in the first place. So I like the change to “error-free”! I’ll definitely look into using that or some stronger language than “almost no errors”. I appreciate the feedback and the ideas!

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          So were the two people in a different role from the field people? Maybe you could say you

          — Served as primary contact for office-based colleagues and up to 15 field staff, responding to their requests as soon as possible

          1. Tigoskah*

            I can’t believe I didn’t think of that. Yes, we were in different departments though we worked very closely. (I’m trying not to give too much away, but our department basically planned the events that their department then went out and executed. But if they forgot something or needed an extra staff person, they’d usually call me.) So it makes perfect sense to experiment with separating the two groups on that line. Thank you!

      3. Asta*

        I think you need to cut “almost no errors” as well. Maybe replace with something about high levels of accuracy.

    3. Tmarie*

      On the first one, maybe instead of “almost no errors”, say “with a low error rate”.

      On the third one, maybe instead of “as soon as possible”, say “in a timely manner”.

      1. Tigoskah*

        “In a timely manner” is SUCH better phrasing, thank you! I didn’t like how that one was coming across but couldn’t figure out a better way to phrase it. And I completely agree with your first suggestion as well, so I’m going to hit that point again keeping you and EmilyG’s ideas in mind and see if I can get it stronger. Thank you for your help!

    4. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Yeah drop that ”with almost no errors” it sounds off. That ”with high accuracy” sounds way better.

  123. Unhappy Friday*

    Y’all. I have got food poisoning and the office is overrun with crickets. But I am the only person in my office with certain administrative permissions for the next three hours and the people who I would have called to fill in for me are all on vacation or medical leave. So I have dragged myself to work where I will sit as quietly as I can in this chair until the late shift arrives.

    But so help me, if my coworkers don’t stop trying to chase and kill every cricket in the building as loudly as they possibly can, I will throw up on one of them.

    1. Colette*

      Some day this will be a funny story (but not today, sadly).

      How critical is it that someone with administrative permissions be there this afternoon?

    2. Anono-me*

      Can you play some loud music? Maybe no one will be able to hear the crickets near you.
      I have to admit I would be a problem co-worker for you today and making fake cricket sounds.

  124. david pumpkins*

    I am really ready to move on from my job but I’m at a loss for what jobs to actually look for besides administrative assistant or secretary jobs, which I don’t want, but my experience and “skills” are limited. I don’t want to be working in such a supporting position again because the demand on me is too much. Can someone give me some ideas about the kinds of positions I can or should apply for?

    I currently work in a very small property insurance office. I started as front desk/customer service and after a coworker retired, I was promoted to her position (luckily because I was burned out on that position, and the constant noise and human interaction all day had me exhausted and overwhelmed. I had many office duties. Now I review insurance applications and process payments, review inspection reports, write letters and emails to customers and agents. But I fell into this position, and I feel the only things I can apply these to is more insurance jobs.

    I’m 35 but got a really late start on my career. Because of difficult life circumstances and mental illness, my teens and twenties are littered with short-lived retail and customer service jobs. When my life was more stable I was able to go to college in my late 20s. I majored in Women’s Studies. …. why? I loved it, but now I’m kicking myself.

    I don’t intend to keep working in insurance at all, and have no desire to be an agent or underwriter. My last job was my first “professional” job out of college. It was data entry for a startup, but only for a year before my whole department was laid off.

    Now I’m rambling and I don’t think this is interesting enough for anyone else to keep going lol. I can answer anything if someone wants to ask or suggest anything.

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like you do detailed oriented work (reviewing insurance applications, reviewing inspection reports) and have written communication skills? How are your Excel skills? Do you use any other software?

      I’m wondering whether some sort of analyst role would be a good fit.

      1. david pumpkins*

        Yes I do detail oriented work, which I do enjoy, although not anything with numbers or spreadsheets. I go cross-eyed trying to follow that stuff. But for example, right now a project I’m working on is writing a procedure document for a process we do in the office. It’s writing easy to understand, but detailed step-by-step instructions for a task. I love doing something like this and I’m really good at it.

        1. KR*

          Omg procedure writing and technical writing is a good field too to get into. Wish I had advice on how to get into it but I’ve heard good things from people I know who do that work.

          2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

            I’m sure you can take courses in technical writing. Might be worth looking into?

    2. irene adler*

      How about auditing? Might look into Quality Assurance industry. Suggest visiting ASQ.org to get an idea of what Quality Assurance is about and what is involved in auditing.

    3. KR*

      If you can read legal-ese and forms and official type documents could you consider a contract compliance type role? The type of thing where you’re looking at agreements, laws, contracts, permitting, ect and making sure people/your business are in compliance?

  125. Data Maven*

    My workplace just instituted a grown-up sticker chart. Complete with the star stickers from elementary school.

    I simultaneously want to vomit, and have a panic attack about if I’ll get a sticker (which is not something I thought I would ever feel as an adult), but don’t feel I can approach management without be labeled “the complainer.”

      1. Data Maven*

        You get a sticker if you’ve gotten a “Kudos” for being a good person. “employees submit “kudos” comments about those who deserve recognition for a job well done.”

        So basically it’s a behavior chart.

        1. Lumen*

          My office recently bought a bunch of pads of paper with cute thanks/yay you messages, sort of like old ‘while you were out’ notepads but for giving people kudos.

          They are sitting all around the office and as far as I know nobody is really using them.

          The part that bothers me is that this was a big idea in response to people feeling overworked, exhausted, unheard by management, and generally burnt out. And thanks but no thanks: a colorful slip of paper or a sticker is not going to make me feel better about the situation. Some of my teammates cry every day in their car, others are waking up in the middle of the night, some are literally having to go on anxiety medication.

          Keep your damn stickers, bosses.

          1. Data Maven*

            Same thing here- I’m highly underpaid, and work more than 40 hours a week very often (salaried- so that doesn’t mean more money). Honestly, most of the people I work with are kind, caring, competent, and go above and beyond on the regular. But now it feels like a competition.

            I’ve actually cried several times today over this (even though I think it’s super silly to cry over a sticker)- it just feels like a way to make everyone feel inadequate.

          2. Antilles*

            The part that bothers me is that this was a big idea in response to people feeling overworked, exhausted, unheard by management, and generally burnt out.
            Not surprising at all. When companies are trying to improve morale, the problems are usually things that they can’t/won’t fix – no budget to hire more employees, no budget for raises, not possible to do less work, etc. But wait, we can’t completely ignore this survey saying morale sucks, gotta at least Do Something.
            Thus, you have cutesy notepads or stickers or free company mugs or meaningless “Employee Appreciation Awards” or whatever.

        2. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I hate the office kudos process. It always ends up being a lot of “thanks, slacker colleague, for doing the bare minimum that you should have been doing all along” and little to no “thanks, reliable coworker, for always doing all the things.”

          2. Lumen*

            Yup. So much of these ‘kudos’ systems end up being about… well, unconscious grading on a curve.

          3. Rusty Shackelford*

            Or “thanks, person who works with people who are willing to do this thing” and “you there, who works with people who never give written kudos or nominate you for awards… yeah, you’ll get nothing.”

        3. Casual Librarian*

          Honestly, it sounds more like a popularity chart if employees can submit kudos. What’s going to stop Jane from giving Kudos to all of her best friends multiple times a month?

    2. Incognito*

      I’m the kind of person that would come in over the weekend with a bunch of stickers and completely fill the chart. Not that I’m suggesting you do that…

      1. RandomU...*

        No, see that would be too obvious. The correct answers are

        A. Completely and obviously pad a coworkers chart so that it looks like they did it themselves over the weekend.

        or

        B. Pad your own chart over time… So you go up to give Fergus a star and give one to yourself… Next is Daphne and one for yourself. Pretty soon you’ll have all the stars but people will notice others going up too… just not as fast as yours.

    3. ..Kat..*

      This (or similar things) have been used where I work. It ends up with the “in clique” congratulating each other regularly and leaving out everyone else. It had nothing to do with quality of work or anything else that was beneficial to the company.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      If you can’t change this, just run around sprinkling your co-workers’ charts with little stars like fairy dust without getting hung up on fairness. There’s little enough joy in the world.

    5. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I’d get a parrot stamp to go with the gold stars. We had that in kindergarten. And stamp the whole chart blue. Then write the whiteboard full… I will try and act as an adult….

  126. Office Mercenary*

    I’m in the process of leaving an extremely toxic and abusive workplace. I’ve given four weeks’ notice and have started making training materials for my replacement, and am actively applying for jobs. For other folks who have left/survived toxic work environments, what got you through? What did you learn from it? While updating and customizing my resume, I’m brainstorming a semi-joking, semi-serious list of skills I’ve developed by coping with this and other abusive places:

    – Staying calm in the face of verbal abuse
    – Anticipating and calming the mercurial whims and rages of an unpredictable boss who expects employees to read their mind; timing boss-employee conversations based on boss’ ability to listen.
    – Resistance to brainwashing, groupthink, gaslighting, and personality cults. Able to see through even the densest bullshit
    – Maintaining faith in my own competence despite constant micromanagement, audio and visual surveillance, and being blamed for things outside my control
    – Taking initiative to identify and complete critical tasks that the boss should be doing, in addition to fulfilling my own role with zero guidance
    – Improving workplace efficiency to reduce negative impact of 100% turnover in six months
    – Regularly taking extra blame to shield younger/shyer/more junior employees from abuse
    – Checking in with and comforting younger/shyer/more junior employees, reassuring them that this is not their fault and they do not deserve to be treated like this

    Did I miss any? Solidarity fist-bumps would also be appreciated.

    1. Lumen*

      *Fist Bump of Solidarity!*

      What I learned most was how to recognize red flags and to trust myself. My very first day at a toxic job I met my counterpart in the elevator on our way up. A job that we’d both thought was 1 role, part time, was 2 part-time roles – one AM, one PM. We would be sharing a desk and had all the same duties, and neither of us knew this.

      That was a major red flag. So was the fact that it took months to get an answer to “who do we report to?” But due to other things in my background, I thought that I needed to go along, get along, and that if these things bothered me, that meant I was the problem.

      Now when I see red flags, I don’t immediately discount my own discomfort as meaningless. It’s an important lesson.

    2. BeeGee*

      Haha I feel you on this. On a serious response, I feel like I am able to highlight some real benefits (but obviously not framing them that they came from being in some messed up management bs). I feel like my organization skills have gotten a lot better because I was sick and tired of my bosses disorganization and micromanaging, so I would take extra steps to be sure to keep him informed about projects via email and project board websites. (Clearly leaving out my bosses issues or framing it as “I got better organized on projects with my boss using x tools and resources which aided in projects getting completed and less fell through the cracks”). Communication improved as well, which resulted from my bosses disorganization, to save my ass from being yelled at for items that were his responsibility but never got back to me about, and to stand up professionally to excessive abuse from my manager. (Again, framing it as “I have improved communication skills which has helped me to work through conflicts with coworkers and managers and which aided me in coordinating project work with others”).

    3. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Remember to find your inner Zen in the next workplace. You probably have an unhealthy paranoia of being watched and everyone being out for you due to your current situation, and maybe some inadvertently picked up traits…. remember the comment a week or two back about the new office assistant that was driving the person balmy by running over everything they did back? That’s a micromanaged minion that is. So you need to reflect about what is ”normal” again.

  127. Entry-Level Marcus*

    How much can I ask about work-life balance in an interview without coming off as lazy (especially as someone who is youngish and relatively new to the workforce)? Work-life balance is very important to me, but I don’t want to give anyone the wrong ideas. Should I hold off on this topic until after an offer?

    Here’s some questions I’ve been thinking of asking in in-person interviews (I plan on asking them at the end after questions directly related to the work):
    – Could you describe a typical day/week in this position?
    – What are the expectations for checking email/being on-call on weekends and in the evenings?
    – (IF interviewer mentions working late/weekends unprompted) How often in the past month or two have people in this position worked late or on the weekends, and for how long?

    1. Colette*

      I’m not a fan of the second question – I feel like it will be hard to get an useful answer. I’d go with “How often do people answer emails in the evenings or on weekends?”

      I think you can ask those questions as long as you also ask questions about the work itself.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      A place with poor work life balance will lie to you if you ask those questions, so you’ll probably have to read between the lines a lot.

      1. Office Plant*

        I disagree with this comment. I work in a 24/7 industry in a role that often involves working nights and weekends. I’m upfront about this when interviewing potential new employees. I want people to self-select out if the non-traditional scheduling doesn’t work for them.

  128. Direct Report That I Do Not Want*

    I may be inheriting a direct report that I absolutely do not want. Currently they are a co-worker and their work and attitude make me seriously question their qualifications. I have trained many people and I eventually went to my boss to advise boss that any training or questions be handled directly by them. When I explained the issues of co-worker being argumentative while trying to train boss knew exactly what I was talking about because they admitted they experienced it themselves from co-worker. Co-worker has also been making errors in their work and is argumentative when they are pointed out. This is all premature but any advice on how to handle expressing that this is someone I do not want to manage? This person is new but seemingly well liked by those that do not have to work directly with them and their current boss despite agreeing with issues has chose to overlook them. Co-worker is a contractor so there is that.

    1. fposte*

      Is there a structure under which this is optional? Absent pool situations, most managers have to manage the people who are in the TO under them whether they like them or not. Do you have authority to choose not to renew their contract, and when would it be up?

      1. Direct Report That I Do Not Want*

        There is so much restructuring that I think it is something where it could potentially be optional. The contract has no end date; just on-going. But they are a contractor.

        1. fposte*

          Just be careful in how you approach it, because it’s knowingly making her somebody else’s problem, and that’s tricky.

    2. Asta*

      If you manage this person you will have the power to hold them accountable and document the issues. You might even be able to fire them.

      If you don’t, you’ll have to wait for someone else to do it, and nobody has yet.

  129. Not So Little My*

    I have been working on a contract basis on-site at a company for a year as part of a large team of consultants. It was known that some of us were interested in converting to permanent employees if we liked the work, but it was not the usual “convert at 3 months” process. Instead there was a bit of a shuffle around available headcount due to bureaucratic reasons. Finally a headcount became available, and since I had expressed interest, I was encouraged to apply. I had to go through an interview process consistent with external applicants and be evaluated in the same way (quite nerve-wracking!) but I was offered the position! I used my AAM-trained negotiating skills (asked male colleagues questions about salary ranges, didn’t give a number until after I had asked the recruiter what range they customarily had for this position, attempted to get 10% over the first offer), and was very happy with how the final base pay turned out (not too far off what I would have asked). I’m taking a couple of weeks off for medical reasons but I start on Monday!!! I love my team, it’s a company I appreciate, the commute is minimal, the work/life balance is superior, and there’s lots of visible diversity in the workforce (they just had a month-long Pride celebration, among other things). So very good work news for me, which I wanted to share with you all.

  130. oldfashionedlovesong*

    Seattle-ites and Sacramentans, your advice requested! I’ll be starting a 100% work from home job next year and it is an opportunity to move. I love living in the SF Bay Area but it’s eye-wateringly expensive and I need a larger apartment if I’m going to work from home all the time. I’d mostly settled on Sacramento as it’s cheap(er), nearby, I have a relative there, and easy access to the Bay Area where a few of my friends live, but recently Seattle came up as an alternative and now I’m torn. I’ve visited Seattle several times on short trips and loved it but that doesn’t give you an understanding of what it’s like to live in a place. The weather would be better for me (I hate the heat and Sac has several months of the year where it’s basically too hot to be outside), and I think public transit is marginally better than Sac which would be nice because I don’t want to buy a car right away. I went to high school near Sac and just don’t have a really positive outlook on living there, a part of it feels like regressing. Two of my colleagues live in Seattle so I’d have a little work unit (my office will pay for us to have a coworking membership to meet up a few times a month). I have a relative there as well although I’m not as close to them as the one in Sac, and I know a few people from grad school there also. I know Seattle getting basically as expensive as the Bay Area now, so I don’t know if it’s worth it or if I’m just getting cold feet. Folks from those cities – especially ones who work from home a lot – any advice to help me make up my mind?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      It does sound like Seattle is the better fit, but the costs would overall be significantly higher than Sac.
      If you’ll be working from home anyway, I wouldn’t look at Seattle itself unless you have a pretty high budget for rent, but one of the suburbs would be far more affordable. The tradeoff is lower access to public transportation and far more traffic to deal with when you do want to do something in Seattle.

    2. De Minimis*

      I moved to Sac from the Bay last year. The heat hasn’t been as tough an adjustment as I thought it would be, and I haven’t seen long periods of sustained miserable heat though I’m sure it happens. Sac is way easier with a car, though depending on where you live you can get by with what transit they do have here–especially if you aren’t depending on it for a daily commute. It’s only nominally cheaper than the Bay, I think the big difference is you can get a little more for your money as far as rent, but you won’t be paying significantly less.

      It has a lot of the Bay problems, but generally to a lesser extent depending on where one lives, works, etc. The area is undergoing a boom right now, but I think if people have never really liked Sac, it hasn’t changed to the point where they’d like it now. I’d probably look into Seattle a little more.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        I’m glad the heat isn’t getting to you! When I lived near there I found it intolerable but my parents were also super cheap about A/C so maybe that was the problem :)
        I think your second-to-last sentence really hits the nail on the head – it’s for sure changing, but it’s still what it is and will be that way for the near future, and if that’s not something I can be happy with I should look elsewhere.

    3. anon1*

      Lifelong Seattle resident. If you are moving because SF is expensive then Seattle won’t be any better, unfortunately. It would be helpful to know your budget for rent because if you make good money then it’s a little cheaper than SF but that’s not saying much.

      I would use this as an opportunity to live maybe in a smaller town in WA? Which is cheaper and most of which are in commuting distance to Seattle, if you want to have a weekend or day in the city.

      1. oldfashionedlovesong*

        Hey there, thanks for this perspective. My budget is $2000-2100. For SF thats a tiny studio if you’re very lucky, and for Sac that’s a 1-2BD outside of the priciest areas like Midtown. Seattle strikes me as somewhere in between based on Craigslist perusing.
        I’m not outright rejecting smaller WA towns but it feels like if I’m going that route I might as well move to Sac, which although it is changing is still a large city with a small town culture. I’m 30 and single (and not looking to change the single part!) so the slight premium of living in an urban area is worth it to me. This will be doubly true I think since I’ll be working from home, I’d like to be somewhere that I can walk outside my apartment at 5 PM and have things to see and do.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          What about Santa Cruz? It’s not a huge city, but it’s not Deliverance country, either, and you could still get into the city to see friends if you wanted. Prices aren’t awesome, but you could get a one bedroom and have room for an adult refrigerator.

        2. Rainy days*

          If that’s your budget then Seattle is very doable. You can easily find a 1 bedroom in even a trendy area for that price. I work from home about half the time in Seattle and I like it a lot. Transit is very good compared to other west coast cities. I think you can definitely get by without a car especially since you don’t have kids.

          One thing to be aware of in Seattle is that it can be hard to make friends. Seattleites are all about organized activities rather than spontaneous hangouts. Eg running groups, Meetup.com. It’s a bit of adjustment and it still bothers me sometimes but I’m trying to lean into it more than I did when I first got here.

  131. Purple Jello*

    Dear Recruiters,
    Stop contacting me and asking me to fill out a company’s online application “to see what happens” without telling me a salary range for the job.

  132. Purple Jello*

    I think I’d be a great copy editor. Does anyone know how to break into that field?

    1. San Juan Worm*

      I often hire for folks who need to edit copy as part of their jobs. While an educational background or experience in journalism or publishing is helpful, one of my best hires was hired for a different specialty, but expressed enthusiasm for learning a style guide in their application materials. This person had just a couple writing clips that were solid, that they’d done as extra work at a previous job. I was influenced by their immaculate cover letter, solid writing examples, previous roles demonstrating attention to detail and ability to articulate the importance of cohesive style (both visual and verbal). Because this person did not have a prior attachment to a particular style (AP, Chicago, MLA), they have adapted to our agency style better than many long-time editors with more experience. A practical step may be to start using the online quizzes some style publishers offer (such as AP Stylebook) to become proficient, but there’s sometimes a fee. Anything you can do to build your collection of clips will help. If you don’t know where to start, perhaps offer a one-time trade of copy-editing a local business’ website copy in exchange for a service (salon, bar, restaurant, mechanic). You’ll get a real-life example, a reference and the opportunity to edit using your preferred stylebook.

  133. Teapot Nonsense Committee*

    I’m hoping for some advice on a situation. I have been part of an internal multi-disciplinary small committee for 5+ years. In the beginning, it made sense for me to be involved, but as the company’s strategy changed, I am not necessary to the group. The group meets weekly and it is mostly nonsense – too much time spend making communication of polices fun rather than actually developing the policies. I have been looking to leave the group for the past two years, but worry about being seen as not a team player.

    Cut to recently when I’ve heard through the grapevine that I am “dead-weight” on the team and add no value. While I agree that i don’t add much value because of the strategy change at the company level render my expertise and current role unnecessary to the group, I do participate and try to help out.

    I was also excluded from a strategy meeting recently. The rest of the team participated. I want off this committee and there is no good reason for me to stay on it, but I resent the implication that I am lazy and useless when I have been trying to be a good corporate citizen.

    Do I just fade away from participation? Any direct communication that I want to be removed is likely to be treated as hurt feeling from not being included. That is definitely not the case. I’m giddy with the prospect that I can actually remove these meeting from my schedule.

    Additional notes – leaving the committee is likely to have no impact on how I am perceived in my actual job performance. In fact, the committee puts out such nonsense that staying on may hurt me more.

    1. Holly*

      I’m assuming this is academia, which I don’t have experience in, so consider my advice with that in mind. Do you have any sort of supervising authority you could talk to about this and ask if it’s useful to the group to have the experience you had represented? The answer may be yes. If that’s not the case, it may be actually seen as professional and a huge relief if you formally resigned and politely – no tone of disappointment or anger, just matter of fact – explained that due to the strategy change you are not sure your experience is useful or a good use of time but want to make yourself available in case anything in your area of expertise does come up.

    2. Colette*

      “Unfortunately, my current workload will no longer permit me to be part of your committee. I’ve enjoyed working with you all and hope our paths cross in the future!”

      Let them think what they want – that’s their problem, not yours.

      1. Colette*

        Replying to myself to add that it’s normal to want people to think that you’re great – it’s not wrong to want that – but you don’t control what they think, and you can’t let fear that they’ll think your feelings are hurt keep you on a committee you’ve wanted to leave for 2 years. It’s not going to be easier in another year … or two … or ten.

        1. Teapot Nonsense Committee*

          Thank you both! In reading your comments, I do agree the mature, responsible approach would be to formally step down. I’m mostly just beating myself up for letting it go on so long. And, the reality is that my workload is crazy lately, which the committee sees first hand, so it works as a “reason.”

          1. valentine*

            It sounds like it will be an all-round win for you, especially the bit where they think you long to stay, and them thinking it’s hurt feelings is better than saying you’re aggressive or the like.

    3. OtterB*

      Workload makes a good excuse, but I think you can also say, if you want, that the direction of the committee means that someone with your expertise has less to contribute than you did originally.

  134. Spy vs. Spy*

    Our company has a policy wherein supervisors are not allowed to date employees. I am 99% sure my boss is dating one of my coworkers. And I’m not the only one who thinks so. For e.g., some coworkers are friends on Facebook with the employee half of the couple. One day she will say something like, “I made quiche Lorraine for dinner. Mmmm!” and coincidentally, my boss will tell someone at work, “My girlfriend made quiche Lorraine the other night. Delish!”

    Plus, our boss’s boss came over to have a chat with him once this policy was made public. Um…why would he do that unless there was a reason? He never discusses other policy changes that I know of.

    I read a post on here about a supervisor living with a coworker, and part of the advice was “let it slip to management.” How, exactly, does one do that? Thanks!

    1. Holly*

      I’m not sure you have standing to say anything about their personal relationship merely existing, but you would have standing to say something if you thought there was a conflict of interest going on, or he’s assigning her projects that aren’t going to anyone else, etc.

    2. Anono-me*

      Assuming you are correct, upper management may know and have grandfathered them in. They may just be being discreet.

    3. anon1*

      I know Alison hates the term “tattling” but this feels a bit like being a busybody. Unless he starts showing her special favor, I would just let it be esp since it sounds like your management *already* knows. Plus you are playing a dangerous game when you accuse people of breaking company policy based on circumstantial evidence (maybe quiche Lorraine is the hot new dish right now?) and “a little birdie told me” information. Document it if you must so if there is ever a special treatment situation, you can say ‘these are my suspicions’ but right now it doesn’t seem like anything to worry about.

      Also, what do you hope to gain by letting it slip? Get them fired? Force a break-up? Get someone transferred?

  135. Work/Life Balancing Act*

    Work Life Balance

    I want to thank AAM and the commentariot for the many discussions of work/life balance.
    I have been thinking about the “over 40 hours” and do you need to work like that to advance in your field?
    I do spend much of my waking time working. Full days then evenings, the perception of never having down time or there is always one more e-mail or something to write or service/committee work.
    On reflection- I had excused this work/life imbalance for a number of reasons.
    I am passionate about my work and job- true
    I really don’t have a lot of other interests-true
    I am in a highly competitive field/tenure track/rare position- all true, but

    reading over this weeks posting of what people who are successful at this level and in similar fields are working- my work hours are excessive and I have been carrying 176 hours of vacation since I started.

    Having had a bad chronic pain that is sometimes debilitating. This is unpredictable.
    I have a fear of “going down” for a long time. Most people get a cold and that’s it. I get one and it is sure to turn into asthmatic bronchitis and 5 to 10 days are gone. Years and years ago I had been” spoken to” about taking too much sick time. Big shame in that. I have had to take “leave without pay” twice in my career due to illness.
    I hoard vacation time just in case.
    what I do know
    I work like a demon so that when I have a flare and can do nothing, I have banked work product and good will.
    I am super grateful and don’t take it for granted that I can work from home when I need to.
    If I am not doing physical work- standing/teaching etc I am not “borrowing spoons” from tomorrow.

    How do other people cope in this kind of situation?

    1. Bortus*

      Full days then evenings, the perception of never having down time or there is always one more e-mail or something to write or service/committee work.

      and

      Having had a bad chronic pain that is sometimes debilitating. This is unpredictable.
      =======================
      Could they be related? :)

      Seriously, you may want to look at how your lack of work/life balance is impacting your health.

      1. Work/Life Balancing Act*

        Nah. The working doesn’t cause or impact pain. I have a genetic disorder- stress etc actually has no impact. I find work a happy distraction if I am not in so much pain that I can’t think. Then I watch a lot of stupid tv.

  136. Jill March*

    I hope it’s not too late for people to see this. But I just read Captain Awkward’s last two posts (#1219 and #1220). I want to learn how to apply her strategies to work. Essentially, the letters are about guys being jerks, the gymnastics women perform to try to tell the guys to stop being jerks without hurting their feelings, and why we (women) need to stop doing all of that work.

    Relevant quotes, if you don’t want to read the whole articles:

    “What I need you and all of us to definitely stop doing in the name of feminism [I’m dead serious]: Stop framing a situation where a dude is behaving badly as a situation where *you* need to try harder to excuse or endure or engage with him.”

    “I think you can just tell irritating dudes to shove it and expect that they’ll get the message, and moreover, I think we must all practice this important life skill, when stakes are low and matters are small, so that hopefully we may practice it on a large (dare I say national) scale.”

    My question:
    Obviously, the stakes are high work situations. But just today, I’ve been helping a female friend vent about a male co-worker of hers that essentially yelled at her and told her her team wasn’t doing their job. (They were doing their job, btw.) She ran a response by me, which was very polite and spent a lot of time not quite excusing his behavior, but softening it for him. So, how do we follow the advice from Captain Awkward quoted above at work, but not have it affect our reputation in a negative way? How have the female commentators navigated this territory? What have the male commentators seen that worked? That didn’t work? This problem is exhausting, but I get why women do the emotional work of managing the feelings of male co-workers. I just want to be part of the solution, but don’t know how to do that when it comes to employment.

    1. Ali G*

      I read those recently as well!
      It is tricky in the professional realm to navigate these issues. You don’t want to seem combative while making a valid point. It sucks!
      Who is your friend responding to? Did someone else ask what guy was angry about?
      Sometimes the easiest thing to do is just stick to facts. Maybe something like:
      John,
      I wanted to follow up on the conversation we had earlier. Obviously there was a miscommunication somewhere along the line, because as you know, my team is in charge of cleaning teapots, and this week alone they cleaned over 100 teapots. I understand you have a stake in ensuring all the teapots are cleaned in a timely manner, but in the future I would appreciate if you came to me with any concerns you might have so I can discuss them with you before things progress.
      Thank you ,
      Jane

      1. Brave Little Toaster*

        Depending on how blunt you want to be, I would even say,

        Hi John,
        In the future, please come to me earlier if you have any concerns about the timeliness of our teapot cleaning team. This week alone the team members cleaned 100 teapots, so of course I want to avoid any miscommunications about how you think we are prioritizing our work.

        (And if I was pissed about being yelled at, I would say, “before it progresses to the point where you are raising your voice to me.”)

      2. Jill March*

        This is a lot like the message she sent. Personally, I think even things like “I understand” and “there was a miscommunication” are too soft. To offer more context, the guy said, “Why doesn’t your team do their f***ing job?” (My friend put it in all caps when she texted it to me, so I assume it was yelled.) Her team was waiting on a crucial element before they even could do that part of the their job, so she had told them to hold off until they had it. What the guy was demanding was essentially “do this other team’s job AND your job because I want it done now.”

        Honestly though, the context is secondary to me. I’d love for a way to say “Do not yell at me” and wait for a response to that statement. (As in, an apology.) But, in my experience and my other female friends’ experiences, even a clear (PRE-K LEVEL) fact like “yelling at other people is wrong” is too harsh for some people. (And to be fair, I did have a female boss who couldn’t take that kind of feedback, but in my observed experience, it is mostly high-ranking men.) I just fume on behalf of my friend who was very emotionally distraught by this interaction, yet still felt it was her job to “fix” the situation. The male co-worker wasn’t going to fix it. My friend’s boss observed the interaction and did nothing. (Which is another issue she plans to address separately.) So it WAS my friend’s job to fix it.

        She’s excellent at social emotional intelligence, so her email smoothed over the situation, kept her team from extra work, and left the male co-worker feeling like my friend was good at her job. But it also left him thinking, “Yeah, that was stressful for everyone. I guess we all overreacted. Good thing it all worked out.” instead of, “Oh my god I acted like a toddler, how horrifying. I should rectify this and work on changing my behavior.” And he has NO idea how much work she put into that whole infuriating situation. Business as usual for him.

        I showed her my initial comment here and she said it won’t change until more women are in powerful positions at work, and guys like her co-worker won’t change without radical social change. It’s discouraging, but probably true. So she continues to coddle the man babies and climb the ladder.

        1. fposte*

          I also think it’s often preferable to say something in the moment rather than composing an email later, and that sometimes it doesn’t need to be fixed afterwards; it can be okay to just leave it hanging.

          1. fposte*

            FWIW, while I absolutely agree on the gendered behavior, I will say that I do a ton of emotional management in communication and a surprising amount of it is with women. They just are needy in a different way.

          2. Brave Little Toaster*

            Yes, I think the best option is to respond right in the moment to make it clear how shockingly unacceptable it is to swear at a colleague like that! An “excuse me?!” works. I have even interrupted my boss (!!!) before in the middle of a tirade to say, “Please don’t raise your voice at me.”

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          There’s a manager that I work with (unfortunately) who is a tool and will sometimes freak out and start yelling. He doesn’t do it with me, a small female who is not in management, because I have zero problems with calling him on that bs and he knows it.

          Being “nice” is actually a bad thing. Being “kind” is where you want to head. I am not a nice person. I try my very best to be a kind one. But if you screw up, you’re going to feel like you were nailed to the wall.

    2. fposte*

      I really liked those CA posts, but I agree that in the workplace it’s a different situation–both we and the annoying dudes are bound together to a higher goal in the workplace, whereas in the social realm, we’re free to part ways.

      In a case like this I might or might not write a followup message; it depends on what happened in the conversation and what my goal is with the email (and whether I’m likely to get it). What’s said in the email will depend on the conversation, but it also has to function civilly as a stand-alone message. I would favor brevity over length (because one thing we *can* do is reduce the amount of energy we expend on this kind of situation) but avoid terseness. One thing that does work as a viable takeaway from the CA article is being unbothered. Don’t send a bothered email.

    3. Mama Bear*

      Women tend to add softening to requests and suchlike. I’d edit any response I gave him down and take out words like “just” and be direct. I heard on the radio this morning to keep emails down to three sentences if you want them read and remembered. If he says her team didn’t do diagrams of teapots, she can say, “Per our conversation this morning, you can find the relevant teapot diagrams at the following network location. They were uploaded on x date.” Or send him his own emails (take note, new employee above) wherein she discusses where the teapot diagrams are, or a blocker, or where he said “no problem” when there WAS a problem, etc.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I have found that I tend to soften emails by using a lot fo extra words that don’t contribute to the actual sentence – what I would call “fluff.” I’ve been trying to eliminate using “fluffy” language (…and emojis. Cringe. Yes, I have used smiley faces and such in my work email. I swear I’m doing better now!).

        “Just,” “would you mind,” and “I just wanted to ask/check/see if” have been my biggest repeat offenders.

    4. Clever Name*

      So a coworker yelled at your friend. That is completely unacceptable. I guess I just can’t get past that. Like, does she HAVE to craft a response to his tantrum? Sure, there are plenty of ways she could have responded in the moment, but that time has past. What is her goal? Does she NEED to explain to Unreasonable Male Coworker that her team is in fact doing their job because he has some kind of authority to ensure her team does their jobs (like he’s a team lead or auditor or something)? Does she want to say, “Yo, dude, that was completely unacceptable how you yelled at me yesterday”? Maybe she says just that? I guess I’m feeling salty. I just turned 40, and my fucks to give are rapidly dwindling.

  137. Ali G*

    So my 12:30 call totally ghosted me. Anyway I am just sitting here with my headphones on pretending to be on the phone so no one bothers me. My office is so dead on Fridays (many staff work from home and it’s vacation season).
    What do you do when the person you were supposed to call at a specified time doesn’t answer? Do you sit and wait and see if they call back or do you go on with your day and see if they call/or if you miss it they leave a VM and you call them back?

    1. BeeGee*

      If you have their email, I would shoot them an email and nicely explain that you called in for your 12:30 call but weren’t able to reach them. Ask if they would like to reschedule for a later time today or next week.

    3. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I have had so many times I get scheduled a phone interview, and nobody calls me. Just because the beacons of intelligence never told me I had to call a party line and never gave me the phone or the magic number for it.

  138. Netflix Fees*

    Could I please get advice on how to effectively communicate my very entry and basic office duties? I only work part-time in the office so I don’t have many duties. My usual office day is focused around misc. tasks like creating lists of interns + a small bio about then, updating excel sheets, light data entry. Basically anything my manager is too busy to do.

    Should I write “assisted manager with administrative duties including faxing, copying, and creating documents”? I know it’s best to try to write my accomplishments but I focused on that portion with my data entry and analysis part (it was super simple – I used SUM and COUNT on excel so the staff don’t manually count and tally info…)

    1. Extra Anon Today*

      Do you have a sense of the number of documents you manage in a day or week, or the number of clients/customers/accounts/etc your work supports? If that number makes you look good, or gives useful context about your skills, that might be a place to start.

      1. Netflix Fees*

        I only get 2-3 documents to work for the week and I only support and communicate with our 6 people staff. So not much! My main project has been data entry so I’ve put more emphasis on that in my resume. But I’d also like to show hiring managers that I did do regular grunt office work and that I also did some stuff outside of data entry.

        1. Mama Bear*

          Do you have access to anything outside of the usual Office suite? You could say something like “support small team with administrative tasks such as…”

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      One thing to remember, is that sometimes applicant tracking systems are programmed to spot duty keywords, not accomplishment keywords. Like “Answered telephone calls, emails, and faxes for a 15 person office,” and not “Reduced customer wait time for a response to 1 minute.”

  139. Emotional Rollercoaster*

    Any advice for navigating an internal job change with tricky relationship management?

    For context: it was an extremely fast turn-around (position became vacant on Monday, on Thursday I said yes and started the conversation with my bosses about the process of transitioning positions having a start date 2-3 weeks from now), I’ll still be working with my current bosses in my new role, and they are not thrilled to be losing me.

    I recognize there was never going to be a good-feeling way of dealing with this, but feel really awful and am wondering if anyone has had any similar experiences.

    1. Just Elle*

      I just got a promotion out of department that means I’ll be leaving current tasks unfinished. I feel bad about it, but also, I could work for the next 20 years and never finish them.
      One boss was genuinely happy for me and said, “I am very sad to lose you, but excited for this opportunity and know its perfect for you. If you ever need a reference shoot me an email. And just know you can always come back!”
      The other said, “Noooo you can’t leave. What about your legacy?! What about all the THINGS we wanted to accomplish together! This isn’t even a good career move for you, not like I would have gotten for you if you’d just been more patient.”

      I walked out of the second meeting feeling so guilty and crappy, until it dawned on me that those two reactions show so, so much more about my bosses than they do about me. A good boss wants to get good talent promoted, because its best for the company, even if its not best for *them*. I heard a saying once about how a boss’ goal should be to supervise someone for as little time as possible – because the good ones are promoted quickly and the bad ones are reassigned to spots that are a better fit.

      And just remember, you made a business decision. Don’t let them make it personal. You know if the tables were turned they wouldn’t think twice about you.

      1. Emotional Rollercoaster*

        I’m going to save that saying! That’s such a good, healthy way of thinking about it. Thank you for your kind words.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Please make sure that you don’t end up doing two jobs for a long time (or forever). Be very strict about what you can do and what can be put on the back burner. Your old boss should have a plan to start transitioning your job to others starting now (and definitely not “ER will do this job until we get around to hiring someone new”).

      Congratulations on your new job!

  140. Anonymissy*

    How do you cope with a boss who ignores you when in groups or meetings? Or literally won’t reply to slacks or emails? Sometimes it all is ok but most days the other coworkers get lavish praise on some things, and when I’ve contributed to a big effort… Crickets.

    1. BeeGee*

      I would talk to your boss in person about preferred method of communication. I had an issue with my boss not being very responsive on job organization websites or emails, so it’s best to ask up front about what’s the best way to reach them or stay updated. I would ask something along the lines of “I haven’t heard much about your thoughts on certain aspects of x project. I have been sending updates via email and Slack, are these the best places to keep you informed? Or is there some other way you would like to communicate going forward?” Sometimes suggesting a dedicated time or meeting on a weekly/biweekly basis can help all parties stay informed and on track.

      1. Anonymissy*

        Thanks, good advice, mainly just moaning about favoritism. The issue is that she is passive aggressive and fawns over others, too. I need to just get thru next seven months and then will be moving once my contract is up.

  141. Lime Twist*

    How do I handle a coworker (with more seniority, but not supervisory in any way) deciding that I’m getting too many special request tickets from our big accounts directed to me when I am not good with confrontation? Especially since he is not involving me in the discussion at all?

    I only know because he has made himself a task in our ticketing system to talk to our manager about “too many key account requests going to [Lime Twist]”. Direct quote. He has not spoken to me directly about it and judging by past behavior*, he won’t.
    Coupled with that, last week, he made a more general complaint about the requests coming to our *team* (not me specifically) more often than other teams and being disruptive to our sprints (we’re Agile). He literally said “It’s not fair”. Several times. Like, my dude, these type of requests are disproportionately going to fall to us simply by virtue of what our domain is. And I end up working on them because I now have the most experience with the relevant parts of our system, and the people making the requests know me. As I am writing this, I have realized that some of these requests have led to me being assigned to some high-visibility projects that maybe he is jealous about? Not super obviously, but it could be a factor?

    Anyway so, now it feels less like he has a problem with the requests, and more like he has a problem with *me*. This and other things he does reminds me far too much of the shitty team lead that pushed me out of my previous company. I don’t think I should just ignore this and hope it all works out, but what would be the best course of action? Talk to him privately (urgh)? Semi-privately at Monday’s stand-up? Give a heads up to our manager that hey, I had zero input on whatever he’s going to bring up and actually I like the requests? Scripts?

    *He has already made a few unilateral decisions for our team since he joined last month. He was on a different team previously that handled a different, much smaller domain of our business.

    1. Psyche*

      I would talk to your boss and say that you saw the task in the ticketing system and you don’t feel that your are getting too many special request tickets and they all make sense due to XYZ reason that you aren’t sure he understands yet. Preferably do it ASAP so that you get the first word.

      1. irene adler*

        And get your boss’ take on this creating a “task in our ticketing system to talk to our manager about “too many key account requests going to [Lime Twist]” ” stuff. Find out if boss will have your back regarding such action.

        1. Mama Bear*

          Agreed. If nothing else, having this ticket in the system as an official action assigned to himself is hostile. If there is a problem, it needs to be addressed, even if the problem is really him not understanding the situation. Take a screenshot in case he edits it.

      2. OtterB*

        I agree, talk to your boss about why the special requests make sense (and that you like them). New guy is jumping into all this stuff when he hasn’t had time to learn your domain yet. Definitely don’t ignore; it’s only going to escalate.

        I don’t work with anything that uses ticketing systems or Agile but it seems a little passive-aggressive to me to put it in there where you will see it. But also useful, since it lets you think it through ahead of time.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Are you female? This guy has entitled bro dude written all over him. To me, this is so much worse if he is going after a female.

      AAM has a lot of posts about coworkers who have no authority monitoring your work. And what to do about it. In my experience, this only gets worse if not dealt with. Good luck.

  142. Beth Jacobs*

    I’ve been learning to touch type at work during down time. No more than 30 minutes a day, but sometimes I’m waiting on a response and it doesn’t make sense for me to start a long task.

    The thing is, I’m using TType, which is gameified. Do you think it could be an issue if someone walks into my office and sees flying letters in bright colours? Thankfully, I have a lot of screen privacy, but I’m still a bit worried.

    1. Extra Anon Today*

      Personally, I think that would be totally fine in many offices, and less fine in some. I’m not sure how you tell the difference, though! Personally, I think the wording you used in your comment is good, and if you wanted to give your manager a heads-up, you could just say that.

  143. Maria-Pia-Mia*

    My old manager was in an accident on her bike. She ran a red and t-boned a car and crashed. The law here requires cyclists to wear a helmet and she didn’t. She suffered a major head and brain injury and will need 24 hour inpatient care for the rest of her life. The accident was her fault, she was riding on the wrong side of the road against traffic and she ran a red light. The police deemed her at fault and so did the insurance of the car driver for damage to the car. My company wants to look good by saying they are donating to help her family with the medical and legal fees but they are just asking everyone employed here to give their own money. How can I get them to back off once and for all because i refuse to give any money? I don’t know if going to HR would help because this pressure is coming from the top.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just keep refusing to give it. It will dry up soon because this is something that goes away on it’s own time, they won’t be putting up the collections request for months on end, I’m sure.

      This is just so awful, I’m sorry for her and her family but yeah, there are other places they can get assistance, they need to stop shaking down employees who have their own lives to fund.

    2. Psyche*

      Ignore any emails and if anyone asks you directly in person, say that unfortunately it isn’t in your budget. Refuse to go into more detail about your finances.

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed. You want to keep this conversation short and sweet – “I’m really sorry, but unfortunately, I can’t just afford it right now.” Then you just stick with that; not going into more details, not letting yourself be drawn into a long discussion, just that.
        …Though if they really get pushy and start pissing you off, there’s always the option to mail the awkward back-to-sender with a very polite and cheerful “Well, like I said, it’s sadly not in my budget. But I really appreciate the company caring so much about Jenny and I’m glad to know that the department going to be donating a lot of money to help out Jenny’s family.” It’s likely to come off as pretty aggressive (unless you’re extremely charismatic), so I wouldn’t start with this. But if they’re really pushy and you just want out of the conversation, most people would just end that conversation rather than have to shamefully admit that “well, actually, no, the company doesn’t care *that* much…”

    3. Reba*

      Oh my word.

      The cause/fault of the accident shouldn’t have any bearing on your donation or non-donation. (I kindof can’t tell from your post if you are “refusing” to give because your manager was at fault, which would be needlessly punitive or just on some other principle of disagreeing with your company’s handling of it — but either way, you are not obligated to give no matter what, so don’t get into the reasons!)

      “I’m sorry, it’s not in my budget. I’m sure you understand. Please don’t ask me again. Thank you!”

      1. Psyche*

        I think that was more of an explanation for why the money is needed since it won’t be covered by insurance.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          That’s my take as well, but it makes me wonder why insurance isn’t covering it. I mean, I’ve done stupid things and been at-fault, and my insurance still covered it.

          1. Art3mis*

            If she had auto insurance and didn’t just have liability, hers may cover some of it, and then her health insurance would kick in to cover at least some of her costs, but not any long term care she’ll need. It’s possible her family doesn’t understand that her own auto insurance would apply here.

            1. valentine*

              if you are “refusing” to give because your manager was at fault, which would be needlessly punitive
              Punitive is asking employees to pay the cyclist ex-manager’s debt. The company should privately pay what they want and not pressure employees to do so, instead.

          2. Wishing You Well*

            Insurance doesn’t begin to cover all the costs of a catastrophic medical event. The costs, medical and otherwise, never end when the injured needs permanent care.
            Back to the question at hand: I agree with saying a donation is “not in my budget” and leave it at that. You can express the hope that something “at the corporate level” will be done.

      2. Maria-Pia-Mia*

        If she had been in a crash that she didn’t cause, and wasn’t the one at fault, I would have made one contribution to the fund the first time I was asked. But she isn’t an innocent victim and I gave no desire to contribute when she was 100% at fault and broke at least 3 different laws. It was her decision making that caused this and there is no one to blame but her. Sorry if that seems cold but it is the truth. If she had been driving drunk the wrong way and ran a red light and t-boned a car I’m sure no one would have sympathy for her and we wouldn’t be asked to donate. Why her being sober on a bike makes a difference is beyond me.

        1. Reba*

          I definitely take your point. I guess I was thinking that she is already being sufficiently punished by her new life circumstances.

          What have you already said, if anything, when you have been asked?

          The point I was trying to make was to *not* comment in any way about what we are talking about here — even though I know I brought it up :) — on whether the collection is justified. But just leave this stuff out of it and stick to budget, becoming extremely boring. Nope, sorry, can’t give. Nope, sorry, can’t give.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            I agree that “budget” is a very safe, boring, not-likely-to-cause-strife-in-the-office answer. I think if you share your true feelings/reasoning, that could cause a LOT of bad feelings and judgement all around (I personally agree with Reba that she’s already been punished and knows she f***ed up).

            It is annoying that they keep asking though, and I get your desire for them to stop after you already gave them an answer. Maybe throw in “It’s not in the budget right now, or for the foreseeable future. If that changes, I’ll let you know, but can you please stop asking me?” and see if that helps?

        2. Delphine*

          Yes, it’s cold. It also lacks compassion and empathy. You should consider making sure that your feelings about this aren’t apparent when you refuse to donate, in case it harms your reputation. Drunk driving the wrong way and running a traffic light on a bike going the wrong way are not equivalent. They’re not even in the same territory.

          1. Mama Bear*

            I would donate not for her sake if I felt this way, but for her family. I have donated to causes to help support children after the loss of a parent (or serious injury or illness thereof). Nobody *has to* but I hope OP stays neutral at work.

            1. RVA Cat*

              This. I’d say it’s less like the drunk driving example and more like this happened while rock-climbing without a harness or something. She wasn’t endangering anyone but herself.

              1. valentine*

                She wasn’t endangering anyone but herself.
                At the very least, she was endangering everyone in the car she hit and everyone behind them.

      3. Another Sarah*

        It has a lot to do with it. The manager was the author of her own misfortune and is dealing with the consequences of the choices she made. I wouldn’t donate to her. She was the cause. Not the victim. No one made her do anything.

    4. GladIdidntfallforit*

      If she is going to need that kind of care forever (assuming you are in the US), she will probably qualify for Medicaid. So I would keep refusing and rest easy that while they maybe bills now she should be ok for the future.

      1. ToS*

        Ditto on the application for medical assistance – the whole process is a spend-down, so getting random cash can be a problem. OP should not mention this. There are other ways to be supportive, and if there is too much pressure to donate, take it to HR, they should have some background in de-pressurizing and EAP for those who are gladiating for donations. Tell them you are financially unable to give with a deep apology. Keep your ears open for how you can be helpful, but stay with what you can manage. Hang on to a warm story or three (if you have them) for the family. Pray for them if that’s in your wheelhouse. There can be warmth and sympathy when declining a request.

        Manager’s health insurance will cover what they can. Her family will adjust. It’s hard, sad and SURVIVABLE. Surviving it is about waaaay more than cash. It’s about having a charitable attitude so those who are doled out any range of misfortune aren’t so isolated that there is even MORE depression and sorrow, because it can happen to anyone. We aren’t at a point where this is Little America in The Handmaid’s Tale – our better angels haven’t yet died off…. Best wishes, all.

        I’m having the thought that bike = some sort of motorized cycle. Still hard and awful.

      2. WellRed*

        In the meantime, if someone can afford a few dollars it could make a difference. Not comfortable with the idea that people at fault should suffer exponentially.

    5. Morning reader*

      This is annoying because if the company wants to look good by donating, it should use company money, not employees’ money. The other thing is that expenses for life-long care will be so catastrophic that a few bucks from co-workers won’t make a dent. Unless there are hundreds of thousands of employees.
      I hope she has good insurance.

  144. Rant Anon*

    Corporate health care rant: Big Corporation (BC) buys smaller private health care practices, retains all personnel. BC has now decreased dr-patient contact time by one third, also has begun to double book patients when the office can’t get confirmation from the first-booked patient. Docs are upset, staff is upset, and rumor is that weekend hours will be increased. Grrr.

    1. Rebecca*

      I’m sorry you have to deal with this. As a patient, this drives me crazy. And the scheduling stuff, changing appointments, etc. isn’t being handled well, either. My elderly mother is injured, in a rehab facility 40+ miles from the doctor’s office where she needs to have her broken arm rechecked. Appt is for the next day, at 3:30 PM. I check her messages when I get to the house after work, and there’s a message “we’ve changed your appointment to 9:30 AM”. And this is not the first time it’s happened. I know everyone is busy, etc. but medical offices have to realize people work, people need transportation, make arrangements, etc. and can’t always just change the time at the drop of a hat. Then, when we do leave work, and in my case, I don’t get paid and have to take leave, we sit in the waiting area or room for an hour or more because everything is so backed up. Double Grr…

      /rant over

      1. Rant Anon*

        Ugh, it drives us crazy as providers and as patients!! Fortunately the office isn’t quite busy enough (yet) to get backed up due to the scheduling (the days aren’t completely booked in the packed schedule) but one day everything’s gonna hit the fan. And docs and staff are all worried about that day. The practice location has always prided itself on running in a timely manner, and now has very little control over this. As an aside, can you push when you make the appointment that you can’t change it due to work, have them flag it somehow? They may be thinking “retired person” when making changes and assuming any time is ok. (Additional related rant… When patients arrive halfway into their appointment time and expect to be seen. An on-time office will turn them away if that is going to muck up the schedule. A corporate office will tell you just to “work them in,” which reinforces that it’s ok to be late.)

        1. WellRed*

          They have more control then they think. A medical practice without practitioners will go nowhere quickly, especially when they take their patients with them.

      2. nonegiven*

        MIL had me call to change an appointment, her second with this specialist, after being in the hospital. I had taken her to the first and saw her fill out the new patient form with her current address and phone numbers.

        They told me they had mailed her a letter changing her appointment, already. (Apparently they couldn’t get her on the phone.) She lived next door and would have mentioned it, so I asked for the address they mailed it to. It was about 3 addresses ago. Then I asked, well what phone number do you have for her? Same, 3 phone numbers ago. This was contact information from a time she had been in the hospital idk 25-30 years ago. This is what electronic medical records gets you.

  145. NotAPirate*

    Any advice on job hunting and trying to decide if you want to work for a large company or for a more patient oriented research hospital? I keep pro and con listing it out and going in circles. I know I don’t want to work in academia. I kinda want to work for large global company? But then I read news articles and things where they are making questionable ethics calls and I don’t know. Larger has more uniform policies, time off, higher pay, nicer benefits. But it’s not doing direct good in the world? But with more time off I would have less burnout and more time to volunteer. I feel kinda like I’m selling out.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think it really depends on the company and job, if I were you I’d try to take it more on a case-by-case basis. Ask questions about benefits, policies, etc; research the company and any ethics you may find suspect; ask about work-life balance and read GlassDoor reviews.

      1. NotAPirate*

        Yeah, I’ve talked to several current employees and it seems fine. They have a hiking trail on the campus I’d be at and they do optional hikes weekly (or an hour to just chill in office) and I would love that. The unethical stuff seems to be at a higher level than anything in this branch.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, unless you’re a teenager, get over the idea of “selling out”. That’s a poisonous mindset that will hold you back and start to drive you mad after awhile! You can hold strong beliefs and fight for them, then bend at times that benefit you best.

      What you should do is know what your morals are and what the price on them is. Everything is not black and white.

      1. NotAPirate*

        I’m amused at being considered a teenager. A decade older than that. Thank you for your reply. I think I am starting to try figuring out the price on them.

    3. Colette*

      I think there is more than one way to look at “doing good in the world”. Best Buy isn’t directly helping people, but they sell products that allow people to help others, do creative things, and have fun. Those are good things, even though their mission is to make money and not to help others.

      Take the job with the large global company, unless it is Supervillain Warehouse or something with no redeeming value.

      1. NotAPirate*

        I really like the way you’ve explained Best Buy doing good. That’s very true!

        Also literal lol at Supervillain Warehouse. Thank you.

      2. nonegiven*

        Don’t scoff too much at Supervillain Warehouse. Some of us need to order things from there to avoid driving a 2 hour round trip to buy socks.

    4. Just Elle*

      Just remember that you aren’t stuck on any path forever. Even that realization can release a lot of the burden of making the exact right choice. Try one, and if you don’t like it, try something out.
      That said, in my industry its easier to go from a big company to a small one… and big companies can help you out a lot with learning cultural norms etc the right way out the gate, and often have more resources for early-career employees (like training classes and conferences). So you might consider starting there, and once you have paid off college loans / learned all you can / developed great communication skills… go forth and help the world in whatever niche you’d like.
      You aren’t a sellout for wanting to set yourself up for a good day-to-day life and future success. There are many, many ways to give and you can plan to give later in life when resources work more in your favor. You also aren’t wrong if you feel you’re ready to jump right into helping out now, and thats what really lights your fire.

  146. Extra Anon Today*

    Does anyone have advice/stories/cautionary tales about staying engaged in your job while passively job-hunting? I like my job and it pays better than average for my field, but I’m starting to see myself outgrow it, and there’s no room for advancement (I’d have to wait for one of my bosses to leave, and I don’t want their jobs anyway). In my field and at my level, it wouldn’t be uncommon for my next job search to take one to two years (especially because I’d want to find something that was a step up, and because I’m committed to staying near my current city), so I’m starting to search now.

    How do you job search patiently without it affecting how you feel about your current job? Last week I had a phone interview (for a position that would have been a terrible fit, so it’s not a good indicator of how quickly the job search will go) soon after I had a really frustrating day with my boss, and I was basically mentally checked out all week. I don’t like that feeling! Normally at this job, I get burned out sometimes, but then a new project rejuvenates me. It’s the first time I’ve job-hunted in years, and the first time I’ve ever job hunted without a strong desire to leave at a certain time. This is my first job post grad school, and my jobs during and before grad school didn’t pay enough to live on, so burnout was inevitable.

    (PS I know I’m not the only one in my office who reads AAM daily, so I’m extra anonymous for this question. Not an anon who is extra in the gen-z sense of the term.)

    1. BeeGee*

      Sounds like you might be looking to leaving quicker than you suggest. For that reason, I would increase your applications (if enough openings are available in your field) to at least one or two a week. Hopefully that will keep you from being so let down or flustered by the interview process if one interview opportunity doesn’t work out.

      As far as at work, you are going to have to really push yourself to put forward your best work and try and get involved in fulfilling projects. I want to emphasize from personal experience that you do not want any frustrations in your current role to manifest into poor work. Thats what got me fired from my first role out of college; I let my frustration in my role to lead me to be late to work and unmotivated in many aspects of my responsibilities which management easily recognized. In my last role I was laid off (due to downsizing and recognizing after the loss of 1 of 2 partners and closing down a part of the business) but I have good references from them because despite me loathing my job and it being a complete dumpster fire, I busted my butt to make sure they had no complaints in my efforts.

      1. Extra Anon Today*

        That week, I was certainly looking to leave, but that hasn’t been my norm. The job I phone-interviewed for was a weird situation in which they kind of pressured me to apply, and it happened to be a week where my boss did a thing she does that very much frustrates me, but that only comes up a few times a year.

        Thanks for your thoughts — I think that the type of burnout you’re describing, where it affects your work, is exactly what I’m trying to avoid.

  147. Going Anon For Today...Trainee Ghosting!*

    My managers assigned one of our new coworkers to me to train to be a backup for my workload when I’m on vacation or out of the office. She is very bright and capable, and I’m excited about having someone to help when I’m not here. But, as they say, something happened. I worked with her several times over the past few weeks, but increasingly, she’s been busy. Then, this week, she has not responded to any messages from me to stop by for training and to make a time to meet. Up to now, she was positive and said she was looking forward to learning new things, and now **crickets**. This week, I’ve recapped everything we covered so far, one email per day with bullet points and attachments for each step, and bcc’d our manager, who assigned her to me in the first place. And the worst part is, while she told me one thing, I heard from another coworker he overheard her telling a friend in the breakroom that “I thought I’d like doing that, but it seems so hard, I don’t think I want to do it”. Could she really think if she just avoids this, it will simply go away? I’m a little anxious over this, so, this is why I’m doing the whole “bcc” thing and I can show despite my attempts to set up times, etc. she simply hasn’t responded, and that’s on her to explain.

    Anyone else have any experience with this?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I think you would have been fine to straight cc your manager on the last few emails to her, rather than bcc. At this point, I think you should ask your manager directly how they want you to proceed. If you know about where she is in her understanding of the training, add that in for context: you recommend that she still needs X and Y training or you think she can take it from here. It’s possible the coworker either thinks the emails are sufficient training, or that she’s done with training altogether, or (worse) that you’re just a peer so she can blow you off. But that is something for your manager to deal with since you aren’t getting any responses.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Talk to your manager ASAP! They need to be looped in, this is not your circus and above your paygrade. You did everything you were told, now it’s up to management to reel her wayward butt in or she needs to be terminated, tbh. That’s unacceptable nonsense.

      1. Going Anon For Today...Trainee Ghosting!*

        Before I left work, I had a sit down with my manager, explained what happened, and that I wanted to let her know what was going on. We agreed to let it go on a Friday afternoon, but I’m going to reach out again on Monday and ask her to make a time slot for training. If she is unresponsive, manager is going to have a sit down with her to ask how things are going to see what she says. She was glad I came to her, and I feel better going into my weekend without this over my head.

        1. valentine*

          If you can see her in person, stop by and ask her whether she is still committed to the training or would prefer your manager assign someone else. (Or your manager should do this.)

          Yes, I think she wants you/y’all to get the hint and find someone else.

    3. Asta*

      How many other things does she have to do right now? How urgent is the training and is it her only priority at the moment?

      This does sound really frustrating and it sucks if she’s ghosting you, but one email loaded with information every single day sounds a bit much – does this all have to be done immediately?

  148. Glen Coco*

    Have any of you written cover letters for an internal position? How did you approach them vs. Cover letters for other companies. I am applying for a position under the same manager I currently work for, so she is familiar with my current work and we have already discussed my other experience in previous interviews. The online application has space to enter a cover letter but does not require one (same generic application page for all jobs here. Should I leave it out completely?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I may be an outlier here, but I think you should include a cover letter. Your current manager knows your work and your experience, but she may not know exactly how that experience fits into this particular job.

      It can be a pretty informal cover letter – you wouldn’t want to write it as though you don’t know her – but I still think it’s a good idea.

      Of course, you could always just ask her.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, even with internal applicants, I’m always happy when someone puts in full effort and looks strong even just on paper. Like Kathleen says, you don’t have to pretend you don’t know her, but I’d do a cover letter.

      2. I Like Math*

        Me too. I love cover letters. And even internally, it’s such a perfect opportunity to showcase why you want the position.

    2. OtterB*

      I would include a cover letter and steer a course between too formal and too informal.

      In my office we recently interviewed for a position where we had one internal and two external candidates. The internal candidate had written a cover letter as though she were an outsider; it didn’t address her experience with the organization at all. Fortunately, she was much better in person, make clear and logical connections between her previous tasks and the ones of the new position, and we offered her the job.

  149. Brownie*

    A couple weeks ago I posted on here asking for advice about my boss who was rating job interviewees based on their thick accents. I went to my grandboss and talked to them a bit more about why I was concerned and they took it to HR. Now my boss is getting training in interviewing – how to do it, what’s allowed/what’s illegal, and so on! And this week I found out that both boss and grandboss are now being proactive in going to HR with questions to clarify the interviewing process. I’m so relieved. And grandboss told me that they’re happy with the fact that I’m seeing things and speaking up because my boss hasn’t ever done this before and grandboss didn’t have a clue that boss was doing these things. All in all it couldn’t have gone much better.

    3. fposte*

      What a great result! Just think of all the ripples of benefits your action has caused.

      1. Brownie*

        The funniest/strangest result of all this to me was my grandboss telling me that he wants more of my input since his goal is to build a more diverse workforce and no one else has ever talked to him about these kinds of discriminatory hiring practices before. The subtext was that I’m of a different generation/viewpoint than anyone currently involved in hiring for my dept, am more representative of the folks he wants to bring in, and therefore can see the problems with hiring where all the entrenched folks can’t. Talk about both a compliment and the weight of responsibility all in one, not to mention a minor disturbing realization on my part that I, a purely technical member of staff, has more HR knowledge than the hiring committee head… at least now I understand much more of the history behind why this dept doesn’t have the diversity that I’d expect to see.

    4. irene adler*

      Glad they did a turn-around on this. So many times folks insist upon never heeding advice or input. Good for you for making this happen!

      1. Brownie*

        As much as my boss and grandboss can get on my nerves sometimes, they do have that wonderful quality of actually looking at input from as much of an unbiased standpoint as they can manage. Plus the nature of my workplace means that if someone actually comes in to ask them a question/give unsolicited input it’s unusual enough that they take it seriously because most of the time we’re so busy everyone glosses over issues in favor of getting things done.

    5. RandomU...*

      Honestly, I think you suggest that all hiring managers get trained.

      I had been conducting interviews for years and after I moved into a new department my HR contact set up a meeting to do 1:1 interview training. At first I’ll admit I was rolling my eyes and thought it was stupid, but at the end I had to admit that I found a few things interesting/helpful. So much so, that I have all my new managers go through the training.

      It kind of floored me after I thought about it, that we are made to sit through hours of required training (compliance, ethics, respectful workplace, etc.) but they haven’t come up with a mandatory interviewer training.

      1. Brownie*

        Yeah, that was honestly the part that utterly baffled me from the moment I found out about it. Letting someone run a hiring committee without ever giving them any kind of HR or hiring training and not having someone from HR helping them? It just does not make sense to me, from both a hiring-the-right-person and a legal standpoint.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        The insurance company I used to work for had interviewer training – it was very well done.

  150. Boring White Bread*

    I’m a very boring and plain person who recently graduated and I’m honestly OK with that! I got a STEM degree but ended up hating research and patient care so I’m looking more toward entry office jobs.

    Could I get career or job recommendations that are stable and boring? I’ve been looking for literally “entry office job” but everyone wants a receptionist or an assistant to help schedule things – both roles that I would not be suitable for.

    1. Psyche*

      Have you looked into the admin side of a hospital? Stuff like medical records or consenting patients to be in clinical trials? That could leverage your degree. There are also positions in universities where your degree could be seen as a plus such as departmental admin.

    2. Gidget*

      There are often program coordinator jobs at research institutions and non-profits. Mostly it’s entry level office work such as planning or helping with logistics for educational or outreach programs. For example, recruiting graduate students for fellowships and then coordinating activities and such once the students are in the program.

    3. irene adler*

      Quality Assurance, Document Control, Auditing, ideally for the industry that suits your STEM degree.

      Might check into asq.org for information.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Quality Assurance also came to mind for me!

        If you like writing at all, technical documentation might also interest you (and that kind of department usually include Editors, and Subject Matter Experts who train the writers on the programs, etc).

      2. Grapey*

        +1 to QA/Auditing/Compliance roles!

        Also, the field of data science is exploding. They tend to get people in by shiny visualizations and Big Business Ideas, but what they don’t mention is that 80% of the work is data cleaning. If you can use your STEM degree to write a workflow that sorts out empty/misspelled data, you’ll be golden.

    4. OtterB*

      You say you hated research, but I wonder what aspects of research you hated. If it was lab work, and you’re looking for a back-office role since you don’t want a receptionist or scheduling assistant job, what about data analyst? If you’re comfortable with a spreadsheet and basic stats, that might be up your alley.

    5. Just Elle*

      Honestly, office jobs might not be for you. They often require a LOT of working with other people, jumping in to help out, go the extra mile, dealing with different personalities, etc. As a boring person with a STEM degree, my stint as an office admin was incredibly draining and stressful.

      You could try searching for “data entry” instead.

      I’d also recommend an hourly job in a production/manufacturing facility, double and triple points if its union. Especially as quality/inspection, since I’m assuming you like understanding and following rules, and attention to detail is a sorely needed/lacking trait among the current workforce.

      Also things like benefits administration, insurance analyst, records retention…. if you can find industries likely to have these, try looking under the companies for job titles that interest you. For example, insurance companies, healthcare companies, etc.

    6. ToS*

      How about working in the grant office of a university – on the administrative stuff. Universities and labs have offices, and since you speak the language, that might be an easier fit.

    7. OysterMan*

      Fellow boring person here.

      Data Analytics or Business Analyst jobs are stable and boring. I really like my Information System Analyst career for that reason. I got my foot in the door by taking an entry level data entry job and just slowly moving up the ranks.

      My sister moved up into her Planning Analyst job by starting down in a customer service (almost call center like) job.

      Now she’s exiting out of office work and into the Surgery Sterilization Tech field (ultimately aiming for Surgery Tech). It’s stable and boring, but it lets her use her STEM brain in ways that logistics never did. There’s a bit of time and money that goes into the certifications, but ultimately worth it.

    1. RandomU...*

      I read that really quickly and thought you said “manatee”

      I was kind of flummoxed for a second wondering what that consists of.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I was thinking that the manager was throwing fish at them all day, but realized I was thinking of dolphins.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      But to answer your question, I have, but in that case it was a beneficial thing. I take it your situation is not. Can you give more details?

      1. very tired*

        Sure – I feel like I’m not able to have conversations with my manager, that I get talked at/lectured to a lot. They aren’t mean lectures, but it’s frustrating because it does feel condescending (and unnecessary) at times.

        Also, my manager wants me to spend a lot of unpaid time developing my work skills (a lot of feedback involves that) — I’m fine with that on some level, but 1. I dislike being treated like I’m not qualified 2. it’s not a full-time job + I don’t get paid much, and 3. the attitude is as if this is something that’s for me, definitely . I also have trouble asking for resources without feeling like I’m unskilled for needing them. I can’t tell if this perception is accurate or not, but I feel like I’m getting a fair amount of critique even when my performance is good, which is disheartening.

        (Again, the critique isn’t harshly phrased and usually includes compliments too, but like: “hey, good job on X project, make sure that when X project rolls around next month that you do A, B, C, well, [20 minutes on the importance of good A-C]” – This is regardless of how A-C were in X project, though is worse if I don’t do as well, I think?)

        I’ve had one other colleague tell me that she’s had this experience too, so it might just be this manager’s style? (the manager and I are also women)

        Does that make sense? I’m falling asleep because of benadryl

        1. very tired*

          That should say, “the attitude is definitely that this is just something that benefits my career (and even benefits me as a human being), as opposed to also being labor that helps the company”

    3. SciDiver*

      Hmm this is tough. Do you mean treats you like a student/mentee as in assumes you need more support or aren’t as knowledgeable as your peers? Or someone who is coaching you but letting you largely figure things out on your own?

  152. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

    So yesterday, I was informed that I’m getting a substantial raise. It takes effect August 1. :-)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Why are you quitting it? Is it because your other job needs you more? Is the other job your own business and therefore you’re worried that if you quit the second job, you’re going to get into trouble if there’s a hiccup with the business? There’s so much to know before you can get much advice on this =(

  154. pentamom*

    Have y’all seen that Chipotle has decided to give Guacamole Bob his very own day on July 31?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      “Even free guacamole is a waste of members’ dues.” – Words of wisdom from Guacamole Bob

  155. Q for Engineers*

    My husband is an engineer employed by the US federal government. He has been there for about 12 years. Prior to that he worked in the corporate world. He flew out recently for an interview with a major corporation in the Seattle-area and the engineer interviewing him said something like, “you work for the federal government so I assume you have no skills and I’m not interested in talking to you about the position.” Since then my husband has been devastated and convinced that he’s worthless. My question to the group: Is this typical? Is that what engineers really think of those who work for the federal government? In case it is relevant he has a master’s degree in mechanical engineering from a top school.

    1. TheTallestOneEver*

      That’s what folks think about most people who work for the government. I’m currently an IT program manager in local government, and I was promoted into that role after 15 years of working my way up the ladder. I met with two recruiters last year and both told me that it would be difficult to place me because there would be an assumption that I wouldn’t be able to keep up with the fast pace of the private sector and wouldn’t have the right skills. I’d have to both take a pay cut and commit to getting certifications to be marketable.

    2. Ann Perkins*

      What on earth… no, I don’t think that’s typical. My husband works for USACE (though not as an engineer) and my three brothers are all engineers in the corporate world. I’ve never heard of someone having that attitude.

      1. CheeryO*

        Maybe not “typical,” but that perception is definitely out there and is a go-to joke among certain types (maybe slightly more old-school engineers). I work closely with USACE and guarantee you that people in the private sector shit-talk them.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Hmmm. I could be concerned that government engineers would not have the skill set that I would be looking for, but I would review an applicant’s resume and would not call them for an interview if didn’t think they were a match, just the same as a candidate from a competitor or a different industry. I think it’s a situation where the interviewer was so rude that it is not worth dwelling on, but it is worth recognizing that those perceptions are there. He would be best served by researching where he is applying, figuring out what skills they do need, what types of people are highly valued, how their work is done, etc. Then figure out a way that he matches that and bring that to the table with the interviewer. (For example, I might think that he’s only involved in research and not actual design that gets implemented, but I really have no clue what “they” do, so tell me. Or maybe he works as a reviewer at a permitting agency and I think he just pushes paper and check boxes all day. What does a reviewer really do?)

    4. CheeryO*

      Yes, that’s unfortunately a common perception, and at 12+ years out of school, his M.S. isn’t going to mean a whole lot to most people. That doesn’t mean he’s useless, but it might mean that he needs to find either a very open-minded hiring manager, or a position where his specific skills are extremely applicable. He may also need to take a pay cut and/or settle for worse benefits.

      I’m an engineer for a state government agency, and I have only ever seen people move to the private sector in two ways, either (1) as a junior engineer when you are still somewhat fresh and moldable, or (2) as a very experienced engineer, after retirement, on a part-time/consulting basis. Note that I am not a MechE, so it’s possible that he’s more marketable than I’m assuming. Either way, it doesn’t mean he’s useless, but he might need to change his strategy a bit (or at least be able to fend off these types of questions/statements in interviews).

      1. CheeryO*

        Adding one more thought, I do think that it’s bizarre that he got flown out for a job that was apparently a non-starter. Sounds like poor communication and a bullet dodged, regardless, so I hope he doesn’t dwell on it too much.

    5. Dial G for Gumption*

      If that happened to me, I would cancel the interview immediately and talk to the HR person (if there is one). I think your husband dodged a bad employer.

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      Engineer here, though now working for the federal government in a non-engineering capacity. Spent 10 years in the private sector.

      I would have concerns about a civil servant not using their engineering, but it wouldn’t be higher than anyone else that applied. But simply I’d ask after their duties and how they used their engineering skills. There’s an impression that government engineers spend more time doing stuff other than engineering, which in some organizations is 100% true. But it’s not across the board, so really it’s a line of questioning to get into.

      Some engineers do have the thoughts your husband’s interviewer had though, which is sad. That also could be very damaging for that company, especially if they work with the federal government, because they’re losing out on a very particular and valuable skillset your husband has – how to work effectively with the federal government.

      This long working out of school, having a master’s from a top school matters a lot less, but experience matters. Make sure to highlight how he’s using his engineering skills, and that will put folks’ minds at ease. Try to put that bad interview out of your minds – that attitude exists, but it’s not all-pervasive.

    7. A Simple Narwhal*

      What a giant glass bowl, I’m sorry your husband went through that. I hope he reported what the interviewer said to someone higher up because it was completely unprofessional and just plain sh!tty. I double hope that the company at least paid to fly him out, because if someone had to waste money on a flight it darn well better have been the company.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I hope he met with more than one engineer during his interview and that that wasn’t the pervasive attitude because it’s crap. If he has an HR contact, he should let them know that the engineer who interviewed him wasted his time, and the company’s, by dismissing him without consideration using a baseless justification.

        I mean, I was interviewed once by an engineer who clearly wasn’t going to consider me but had the decency to conduct a polite, if truncated, interview.

    8. Clementine*

      I have heard about law firms having this attitude about government lawyers.

      No, your husband is not worthless. The engineer was totally out of line. I would actually report this to the original recruiter. The recruiter would not have had that engineer on the interviewing loop if they had know that was his attitude. No way would the corporation have set up an expensive interviewing loop and brought your husband in if they thought he had no skills.

      I hope your husband can realize that he just encountered a jerk. If some people have this attitude, that’s their problem.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      As a fellow fed, I offer my sympathy to your husband. Federal employees are constantly bashed in the press by politicians and pundits who want to reduce the size of government, or to deny pay increases. If you listen to them we are lazy, could never survive in the private sector, etc. Unfortunately, some people like the interviewer believe this stuff. Those of us who work in government know better. Like any workplace we have our slackers, but we also have our superstars. In general feds are hardworking, doing their best for the public. Your husband should be proud of his work on our behalf, and I thank him for his service. He might want to let the HR person from major corporation know what the interviewer said.

    10. OtterB*

      Some do think that way, but it’s by no means universal. My husband is currently working as a mechanical engineer for the federal government after substantial experience in the private sector and with government contractors. Since he’s been in his current position several engineers have left his group, some for other government positions but some for private employers.

      That’s a recruiting failure on the employer’s part. If in fact they were going to be that skeptical of his background, they should not have flown him out for an interview. It sounds like the people who did prescreening and the person who was doing the actual interview didn’t communicate.

      There can be legitimate concerns – if, for example, your husband’s job involves more jumping through bureaucratic hoops than actual engineering work, or if his 12 years of experience is one year of experience repeated 12 times. But that can happen in the private sector too, not just in government. Tell him that he hasn’t discovered that his experience is worthless, he’s discovered that some people are total jerks.

      Re TheTallestOneEver, I’d expect it to be more of an issue in IT than in mechanical engineering.

    11. ToS*

      That would be an opening to raise awareness of some of the great things that he HAS done with that social neanderthal. Isn’t NASA a federal agency?

      Of course, if you husband is disinterested in working with him because he held up a huge, blinking neon sign that says “I AM DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH” when it was not otherwise displaying “DOES NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS”

      You husband’s disinterest is well placed. When people show you who they are, believe them.

    13. Engineer Girl*

      The interviewer was a jerk.

      People see some person slacking in a civil service position and extrapolate that to all government jobs.

      Some arrogant people think that no engineering goes on in government positions. They’re wrong. I know one guy that left his armed services job to become an instructor at a well known university. Yes, he had his doctorate. Yes, he was using it in the real world. Yes, he later received accolades for groundbreaking research.

  156. Bagpuss*

    This is a low key query, I’m just curious!

    I’ve seen quite a lot of comments which talk about being able to claim unemployment (or not), and issues around how employers can affect whether you can claim.

    I’m in the UK, where unemployment is a state benefit,so it feels odd that employers get a say or can affect whether you get unemployment benefits after they fire you or lay you off. (or why they would care, unless they are incredibly vindictive) Here, there are situations (for example, if you are sacked for misconduct) where you can’t claim unemployment benefits immediately, but the employer has no financial interest in it either way.

    Do employers actually pay the benefits? And if so, how long for, and what happens if the employer goes bust? Or is it a form of insurance where they may want to keep their premiums low by avoiding any claims ? And is it then a short term payment?

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      In my state, unemployment is paid by the state but the company is required to reimburse them for it – most companies pay insurance for each employee which pays out in the event of a lay off, but it can also be set up so the state essentially forwards the bill for the cost of unemployment payments to the company for reimbursement.

      I feel like there’s a cultural perception that people who collect unemployment are lazy or somehow gaming the system — it’s messed up, and I wish we had a healthier culture surrounding it!

    2. De Minimis*

      It’s like insurance where they want to avoid claims. Their rate goes up if they have so many claims reported against them [it’s a tax rate based on employee wages, I believe, so it can add up to quite a bit.]
      Each state operates an unemployment insurance fund that actually pays the unemployment compensation, so it’s not something where the payments would stop if the company went under. In the US, it’s generally short term [13 weeks, I think] but can be extended in certain circumstances [especially in times of high unemployment on a wide scale.] It is not permanent in any case, though. Right not the longest period someone can possibly claim benefits is 99 weeks, and that is only when the entire nation is having high unemployment [and also requires legislative action to authorize extending long term unemployment benefits.]

  157. Jen*

    My question: how skeevy was this situation, and is it still skeevy if the person is ok with it? Am I overreacting?

    My sister worked retail in her late teens (18-19) and one of her coworkers, an older man (i believe early thirties), is a photographer. He suggested they do a photoshoot at their boss’s house, and when she arrived, their boss, also participating in the shoot, was in his undergarments. They then proceeded to do a nude photoshoot.

    Here’s the thing: my sister insists there was nothing wrong with this. While of course she’s legally an adult and has her own agency and she has done similar shoots with non-coworkers, I still believe it’s wildly inappropriate behavior, from her older coworker but especially from her boss, given workplace dynamics, and potentially dangerous territory legally. What’s your take?

    4. merp*

      EXTREME SKEEVE. I guess it’s fine for her to not personally be bothered by it (which I don’t get but that’s her call), but it is waayyyy out of line for being related to work/coworkers.

    6. Emily*

      That’s really skeevy even if your sister isn’t bothered by it!

      If none of these people worked together, I might still side-eye the older men for doing a nude photoshoot with a much younger woman (I know it’s not technically against any rules, but the power differential gives it the potential to be creepy).

      The fact that her older coworker (!) and her boss (!!!!) were involved with this makes it 100% inappropriate!

      1. Jen*

        That’s my take, honestly. Young women are vulnerable to older people who tell them they’re pretty, mature, etc. even if they are smart and capable. My continued discomfort comes from the fact that though the location is closed she continues to do shoots with this guy lol. The initial circumstances of their meeting is enough for me to be chilly towards him; if he flaunts normal workplace standards what else does he do?

        1. Shiny Swampert*

          Oh. Wow. That is horrible. I hope your sister is ok. Long term ok, not just now.

    7. it happens*

      American apparel famously had this type of situation all the time. Not ok. And your sister has serious Stockholm Syndrome to think it is. Sorry to be harsh, but not ok.

    8. Shiny Swampert*

      Your sister might be invested in believing this is ok, because if/when the scales fall and she realises JUST HOW VERY NOT OK this is, she might find that very distressing to accept.

      I wouldn’t try and persuade her either way but I’d be prepared to support her in the future.

      1. Lumen*

        This times a thousand. There are things I was ‘okay’ with when I was ‘a legal adult’ that now I’m reprocessing in therapy because they were abusive and traumatic.

        2. RVA Cat*

          I also have to wonder if they’ll threaten to put the nudes online to keep her from quitting? Of course that’s assuming they’re not already on porn sites…..

          INAL but her boss’s involvement makes this sexual harassment just because of the power dynamic involved.

            1. RVA Cat*

              Lordy…. Are they attached to the boss’s full name? If not, they are protecting his reputation but not hers. (Also probably his marriage. Maybe she’s naive enough to friend his wife and let consequences ensue?)

              Maybe they can be evidence in another young woman’s lawsuit?

              1. valentine*

                At the very least, she needs a good agent. She’s severely lost on rights, including digital, international, and print. I mean, does she consider this a donation?

    9. RandomU...*

      I think it would fall under ill advised category for the boss to be involved with this for all the reasons that that are pretty obvious.

      I’m going to go against the grain a little bit here…
      However, that being said, from your description it doesn’t sound like there was any coercion involved and this was a regular(?) activity that you sister participate(d) in. They were all consenting adults, so they get to make their own choices, no matter how bad we may think their choices are (or how much it could hurt them). So from this point of view I guess if I was going to call one of them skeevy, I’d have to call them all on it.

    11. OysterMan*

      NOT OKAY NOT OKAY NOT OKAY NOT OKAY. I’m screaming!

      Yes, she’s “legally” an adult. That’s still very very young.

    12. WellRed*

      Just saw your legal question. It could possibly be a sexual harassment issue for the boss to do a nude (!) Photo shoot with young employees. And, sorry, your sister is naive and clueless.

  158. Swingbattabatta*

    I just received a job offer to act as an independent contractor instead of an employee… anyone have experience with this, and any tips or words of caution? I also suspect that it wouldn’t be a proper classification (they want exclusivity, they’d assign me work and direct the strategy and approach of each assignment, etc), which is a whole additional consideration.

    1. BeeGee*

      Make sure you’re being compensated fairly!!! My brother and ex have worked a lot of contract work and you need to keep in mind that you do not get the same benefits as a salaried worker and you’ll have to pay the taxes.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Yes, you need to make at least twice what you would as an employee.

        And, they don’t plan to treat you as a contractor, so this is illegal. Do you think they are just clueless, or is this a red flag?

  159. Dreamin'*

    Anyone here who became an independent biz owner after worki f for others, or gave up corporate life to run a bed n breakfast tourism biz?

    1. Anun walks into a bar*

      People have written books on this very subject, though with Air BnB, I’d connect with your local chamber of commerce as part of making a rough sketch for what this might look like. Pay attention to restaurant (breakfast) and lodging (bed) businesses. Is there room for this niche?

    2. just a random teacher*

      I decided to take a break from teaching to run tutoring and pet-sitting businesses (at the same time – I technically had it organized as a single business that did both but would advertise each service separately and I didn’t end up with any overlapping clients). I did this independently rather than by joining an agency or service, and this was back before the “gig economy” really took off in those areas.

      I hated it. I had to constantly be trying to drum up customers, I felt bad charging people money, I never knew my schedule in advance, I was always worried I’d overlooked some regulation somewhere and was going to end up in trouble of some kind, and I made very little money since I never had the density of bookings I’d need to make it work at the rates I felt comfortable charging. (I did, at least, understand how taxes work well enough to correctly deal with self-employment issues on that side.)

      After a few years, I stopped advertising, kept on a few of my favorite pet-sitting clients who I knew would have trouble finding a new sitter (I specialized in needy senior dogs with behavior issues – I loved the actual work part but felt really bad charging these people enough for me to live on), and signed up as a substitute teacher instead. I ended up liking that a lot better, there was much less paperwork, and I made more money and eventually had enough work that I could block off the days that I didn’t want to work and have more control over my schedule. (I then ended up taking an actual teaching job when a really good fit happened to come open.)

      Anyway, I don’t know if that’s helpful to you or not, but it’s not something I’m likely to try again.

  160. many bells down*

    I’ve been volunteering with a nonprofit museum for 4+ years now. Recently they posted two paid positions that I was interested in. I got rejected from both this week, with the same form email that said “thanks for taking the time to interview.” They didn’t interview me. One of the positions I know there was a very strong internal candidate, and the job was definitely hers if she wanted it, but the other one was not only the one I really wanted, but they interviewed me for a very similar position last year (I had to have surgery so the timing didn’t work out at all for that one.)

    I’m totally crushed. And, I don’t feel like I can even give them my enthusiasm as a volunteer right now. It’s not really fair to the volunteer coordinator, who I know greatly values my work, but I need space from the organization for a bit.

    1. Lumen*

      I’m so sorry you were treated like this. That is frustrating.

      I recently applied internally. The department did not contact me at all for a month, then one person sat down with me for an ‘informal chat’ (that is not the interview process here; you meet with most of the team). A month later she finally rejected me. Meanwhile, my bosses were also left hanging, trying to figure out if they were going to have to replace me or not.

      Really depressing to get glowing comments but then also see: not glowing enough for you to even give me a legit interview.

      I feel you, and this sucks. I think it’s totally fine to take a bit of time off from volunteering. Go back if you want to; move on if this feels like something you can’t or don’t want to get past.

    2. irene adler*

      Take care of you first.

      If you need to take some time away from the organization, by all means -do so!
      If the coordinator values your work, they will also respect that you have needs and must take care of yourself. And they would be disappointed if you did not look after yourself properly.

    3. Gidget*

      I’m sorry. That is really tough. And really quite inconsiderate to reply with not only a form letter, but an incorrect form letter considering you are a long-term volunteer well-known to the organization. Take some time off, you can let the volunteer coordinator know if you want and I am sure they will understand.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I actually think it’d be good to share your feedback the volunteer coordinator if you’re feeling comfortable/able to provide it in person or via phone in a very nice tone that expresses disappointment but not anger.

        And definitely give yourself time off! That was super disappointing and it makes a lot of sense to need to distance yourself from the organization and what happened for awhile.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I’d talk to the volunteer coordinator for sure. At the very least the organisation should be concerned that rejecting long term, dedicated volunteers in a way that reads as callous will hurt their ability to retain those volunteers.

    4. fposte*

      Oh, that’s really frustrating! If we have to reject volunteers they get a personal note, same as any other internal candidate. That doesn’t keep them from being disappointed, and I totally understand if they don’t feel like volunteering at that point, but it does at least acknowledge that they have already been contributing here.

      I’d like to think that this was just a glitch on their part, especially with the “interview” thing. I think EddieSherbert has a good point about the possibility of notifying the volunteer coordinator, though, so consider if you might want to do that.

      1. many bells down*

        I had just floated an idea to revamp the volunteer position I’m in, and the coordinator asked me to draft a proposal and she’d forward it to Education, because they’re also looking to revamp it. I’d applied for two positions with Education.

        Half of me is like “forget you, you don’t get my free work” aaaand the other half is like “show then what they’re missing!”

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Yes, take time off from this nonprofit and use the time to decide if you really want to continue volunteering there.
      Maybe it’s time to volunteer somewhere else.
      Sorry to hear how you were treated.

  161. Extra Salt*

    I’m a very new person in a small team and I can’t help but feel a bit looked down upon during interactions with team members. I’m younger than most of the staff but I’ve had to mature quickly at a young age and consider myself to be a down-to-earth, sensible person who comes from a specific background.

    For example, I’m asked about my SO and our relationship. I explain about how my SO wants to attend grad school and get to a certain career, and afterwards we want to get married and have a family. That we need financial stability from advancing in our careers before we consider marriage.

    Well I got a 20+ minute talk from the older women in the staff (I’m a woman in my mid 20s) that we should stop being so inflexible and stop planning ahead, etc. Everytime I tried to explain my thought process, they kept pushing that I was wrong to think this way…. Which I’m not a big fan od because I never asked for their opinions? SO and I have been together for almost 3 years – trust me we’ve talked about this a lot. I don’t need to know about your life journey and advice Karen.

    Or they ask me about future goals – again, I say something and then I end up listening to monologues full of advice that I’ve already gotten and processed years ago. I get jabs about being so young and inexperienced but trust me Bob, I talk about this more than enough with my therapist.

    I feel bad for not being grateful about being stuck in these “advice” monologues but I feel really uncomfortable and don’t care for their advice. They’re not my therapists or my close friends – I just want a professional relationship with them! I’m worried about offending them and rocking the boat as a newbie, if I were to politely tell them to stop wasting my time. Any tips on how to shut these down with coming across as a jerk?

    1. irene adler*

      Stop answering the non-work questions. You have friends to talk about the non-work stuff.

      They see you as someone who needs ‘educatin’ (doesn’t matter that you don’t need their advice). So they are going to lecture you to death. And they will keep doing this until you take away their opening to do so.

      When they ask about SO, plans and the like, just smile and say SO is fine, plans are good and then move the attention back to the work project at hand. Don’t take the bait.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I can’t tell if they asked for the whole story/plan with your SO or you offered it up :) but either way: I wouldn’t be sharing my personal life with this group of people. You’ve tried, it didn’t work, and now it’s none of their business. Generic answers + subject change it is!
      “How’s SO? Still doing that school thing?” “Yup, they’re really enjoying it. What did you do in school?/What does your SO do?/So about this finance form…”
      “What are your life goals?” “Haha, oh wow, that’s a big question I’m still working on! Like we should be working on this llamagram.”

      I also think it’s okay to interrupt a long lecture:
      “Oh, Karen sorry, I actually need to run [to the bathroom, to a meeting, to finish this email before I forget]!”
      “I’m very comfortable with how I’m handling things at home, but thanks anyways! So [subject change].”

      1. EddieSherbert*

        PS My SO went back to school, I was sole breadwinner for several years…. anddddd we also made a plan!

        Quite frankly, when you’re providing for someone else, you kind of need to KNOW you have the same goals or at least can support each other’s goals because (brutal honesty here) you’re putting your whole life on pause (marriage, kids, maybe career depending on your goals?) to support them and you need to feel as-positive-as-you-can that it’s going to be worthwhile.

        Yes, the “plan” has changed since then :) but it was still the right decision for us to make it in the first place. At the very least, having it calmed my nerves about… all of it! Haha.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I think the expression is “drop the rope” when you keep trying to explain something reasonable to unreasonable people. I agree with the others, the best response is a smile, short answer, and redirect to work. “SO is great!
      Future plans? I’m sure we’ll figure it out.” The smile is just to deflect from the short answer, which otherwise indicates you aren’t giving any more personal information now. That might make you seem cold and unfriendly to the types of pushy people who ask overly personal questions at work and force their opinions on you, though. It shouldn’t matter, but it could.

      The other thing you could do is to turn it around on them. “Future goals? Hmm I dunno yet, what did you think you wanted out of life when you were in your mid-20s?” It sounds like they’re the kind of people who are going to monologue at you anyway, at least you can make it be about them and not about you. It’s probably easier to tune it out when it’s their life story and not them telling you how you should live yours, plus has the benefit of making you seem friendlier even as you’re not sharing anything about you. If you can manage to cut them off after a few minutes by steering the conversation back to work, all the better. The downside is, of course, that they’ll keep at it because you’re soooo friendly and receptive to their chatting.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      Instead of answering these kind of questions, turn it around and ask about their lives. That’s what they want to talk about anyway, so skip the pretense that it has anything to do with you.

      Let them chatter for a few minutes (not 20) and then when they hit a transition say, “okay well, I’m sure you have a lot on your plate today, I’ll let you get back to it.” And walk away. (Go get some water or go to the bathroom if they’re at your desk.)

    5. Reliquary*

      I’m sorry their advice is intrusive and unwelcome. That stinks.

      But I think there’s something here you can turn to your advantage. Senior/experienced people often like to give advice to junior/less experienced/new-to-the-job people. This is not always about “lording it over” the newer person. In fact, it is often a roundabout way to express interest and investment in the new person.

      So ask them for advice. Just make it about something other than your personal relationship. Work is the logical topic, but It would be great if the advice was something you’d actually appreciate their perspectives on. Maybe the best place in town to buy furniture? Maybe the best dog park?

      I know that you clearly stated that you did not want advice. But maybe you could try reframing “advice-giving” not as “conversation that marks me as a subordinate” but as “conversation that is trying to draw me into collegial work relationships.”

      Feel free to scrap this advice. ;)

  162. Respectfully declining opinions*

    I’m pretty new to my team and role (a little less than 6 months). I have one counterpart, and in the beginning he was very helpful with any questions. As I’ve settled in, I’ve found he’s continuously giving unsolicited advice and opinions on how my part of the team is operating. I’ve tried gently thanking him for the advice but letting him know I’m sticking with whatever I’ve decided, but he doesn’t seem to be picking up the hints. Any thoughts on the best way to handle this? We do need to work together a fair amount, so I want to be cautious in how I approach this.

    For further context, I’m a female senior manager in my early 30s and he’s also a sr manager, mid-to-late 30s.

    1. fposte*

      Upthread there is a discussion about two recent Captain Awkward posts that seems very germane to this; you might want to scroll up and then read over there. As we discuss upthread, you can’t treat the work situation the same as a social one, but it might help with context.

      Basically, Bob is locked into “advising Respectfully” mode. I think another approach would be bringing the overall issue up to him directly, and not necessarily when he’s doing it but maybe when you’re talking easily another time. “Bob, I appreciate your willingness to give me advice when I first started–it was really helpful. But I’m feeling like it became a habit, and now we need to put that behind us and work as the equals we’re tasked with being–could you put the advice tendency on a shelf unless I ask for it?”

  163. Gidget*

    Just a tiny little vent. I posted here last week about how little I had to do at work and how it was driving me crazy. Thanks everyone who responded for your helpful thoughts and perspectives. I have sort of a follow-up to that.

    I was desperately looking for things to do this week (I created some work for myself, some basic research into something we might need a year from now!) and so I jumped at the chance for any tasks. I was assigned a task of entering some names into some forms. About 50 names. So I entered about half the names. Read multiple news articles. Entered most of the other names. Read some AAM. Entered the last few names. Read some more news. Spell-checked all the names. And I was still done in less than an hour.

    I returned the list of names to my supervisor and the response I got was, “That was so quick, you should have saved it for tomorrow.” And I am still not quite over this response. It really doesn’t take very much time to enter 50 names into some forms and spell check them. And still I was too fast. And I should have saved them for the next day, why?Brain is rotting. Sigh.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Oh, WOW. That sucks. So your manager knows you have nothing to do… and just doesn’t care? I would have a very hard time with that as well. Sorry!

      My first job was like that – we also had to track all our worktime. After several months, I didn’t care at ALL. I would have HOURS tracked as “waiting for work” and just copy the emails/IMs from my manager saying he had no work for me to do into the description.

      Can you wear headphones and do you like Podcasts? Manndatory Listening is a good one focused o business and customer service and entrepreneurship. I’m also a big fan of Hidden Brain. Currently really into one that’s a bit emotional for the office (in my opinion) called Terrible, Thanks for Asking.

      Can you watch TED talks without getting in trouble? Also a fan of those :)

      1. Gidget*

        Ha. yes. My manager knows. She told me that she will have to do a better job delegating next year (!). I didn’t have the heart to tell her I am doing everything in my power not to be here next year.

        I have listened to a lot of Hidden Brain and various other NPR podcasts. I will try out Mandatory listening. I actually watched a few TED talks today in the name of “research.” Thanks for the suggestions!

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Oh, that’s not a great reply… does she know we’re only halfway through THIS year?!

          You could also look into volunteer jobs that can be done on the computer. VolunteerMatch is a good site for finding specific types of volunteer roles (like remote!) and you can also filter by your areas of interest.

          I always liked volunteering at my local animal shelter, so during my time at ToxicJob, I also offered to helped with answering general emails, social media, some admin filing, graphic design, etc. for an animal shelter for awhile (but X years later I now co-run an animal rescue for no pay in my “free time” sooo that’s been a real slippery slope… hahaha)

  164. Birch*

    How do you evaluate your own productivity? It seems like even working at 110% full-tilt productivity is not enough or me to feel on top of things, and my work is driven by my ability to think critically and creatively, so the limiting reagent is often my own brainpower (which is scary in other ways).

    What percentage of your workday/workweek do you think you spend working full-tilt productively, what percentage do you spend doing more exploratory or less tangible tasks, and what percentage is brain break/downtime?

    1. Bend & Snap*

      My work is almost all “brain work”–writing, strategy, that kind of thing. I need a lot of thinking time to work out how I’m going to approach things and if I’m writing, framing what I’m going to say. This prep means I work fast when I sit down to do things.

      I do my thinking work when I’m freshest (morning) and save tasks like research/information gathering for when my brain needs a break (afternoon).

  165. Struggle bus is real*

    Monday I start my new job!! I honestly believe that this blog helped me, both with technical skills like resume and cover letter and feeling confident walking into my interview. Thanks Allison!

  166. Trixiebells*

    TL;DR: At what point of a temp assignment do you confirm your last day/if they’re extending your assignment?

    The long version: At the beginning of June I was given a two week assignment that, if it went well, would turn into a six-month temp assignment. They did decide to extend, but for three months instead of six. According to the recruiter, the change in length wasn’t because of my performance (he said that my feedback was all positive), and said he thought it was an issue getting approval from The Powers That Be. Since then, the only mention I’ve had regarding my extension was about three weeks ago, when I was told by my boss that things were “looking good” for staying beyond the three months.

    Now that I’m a month-ish out, I’m not sure when I should expect to hear if they’ll extend or not. My assignment doesn’t have an official end date that I know of, so I don’t actually know if it was 3 months from the initial start, or 3 months from the extension date. If they offered to extend I would accept, not just because I like the work but because it’s a new field for me and finding something with only 3 months of experience will be difficult. I know temp work can be very last-minute, but would it be okay if I checked in a week or two out? And who would I ask – my recruiter or my assignment manager/boss?

    1. Four lights*

      That would be fine, or you could ask for a status update (and possible end date) now. After all, you need to know this to plan your next step. As long as you don’t ask every day I think it’s fine to follow up on this.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I had an assignment like that once. It would get renewed every three months. My agency would actually call me about two weeks before the three- month period was up and notify me that my assignment was being renewed for another three months and if I was agreeing to that. So if you haven’t heard anything about an extension 3 weeks before the three-month period is over, contact your agency rep (since, technically, you work for them) and ask if another extension is in the works.

  167. Catsaber*

    Someone told me today that I’ve been “more than accommodating [with their team]” over the past several months. I’m sure they meant this as a compliment. But it feels like they’re saying, “Gee, you’re just so awesome at bending over backwards to do every little thing we ask, you’re a great doormat!”

    I know that’s not what they’re really saying. I guess I’m just bummed by this particular comment because I feel like I’ve been doing a ton of work managing this particular team, where 1) I’m not a manager 2) I’m definitely not THEIR manager 3) I’m not getting paid what a manager gets paid 4) it’s to the neglect of my real work that would provide me with valuable skills to advance myself 5) the reason I’m so “accommodating” is because responsibilities and boundaries are severely blurred between our two teams and really need to be straightened out. Also I’ve got a heaping dose of imposter syndrome and feel like everyone looks down on me (which I have no evidence to support this, but I’m still really insecure).

    I guess I should be grateful that I’m being seen as a “team player” though. It’s just whenever anyone from either of the two teams I work with complains about something, there’s a simple fix – DEFINE OUR ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES AND ENFORCE THEM. Oh well. Gotta remind myself of all the good things about this job (like the pay! but still not manager-level pay!!!!).

    1. TechWorker*

      Definitely meant as a compliment! I definitely understand blurred responsibilities are frustrating but is there any way you can turn this around/use it as a reason to talk to *your* manager about how you’ve stepped up to the plate with increased responsibilities?

      (From experience I can assure you busting a gut to make last minute changes requested and then being told you ‘aren’t very accommodating’ also feels bad :P)

      1. Catsaber*

        Thank you! I’ve talked to him about some of the issues surrounding our two teams’ effectiveness, and he agrees with me on the solutions (the other team needs a dedicated manager – currently their manager has a ton of teams under her and is very split), but that decision will have to be implement by levels higher than him, and those people doesn’t seem interested.

        I guess I haven’t really talked to him about how I have stepped up but I should. I’ve just been so buried in the work lately.

    2. LQ*

      Hi past me! :)

      They clearly don’t look down on you if they are giving you a compliment like that.
      Do: Put the stuff that you’re doing that is managing the other team on your resume “gives work direction” “provides feedback” “develops team members”.
      Do: Embrace that you are learning to be a manager and how to do this work, it will serve you well.
      Do: Consider if you don’t want to go closer to this work,if you want to move away from it (more broadly in your career, not just here).
      Don’t: Focus on how much more everyone in the room is paid than you, it’ll only make you annoyed and frustrated.
      Don’t: Worry about doing someone else’s job, if someone steps in and actually DOES their actual swearwords job, graciously step aside and hand them the work you’ve been doing. (But keep your hand under it, they will drop it.)
      Don’t: Think that this doesn’t “really” count as practice managing a team.

      (Future me got promoted into a management role and is now well regarded by several levels of management up. It’s still not great and definitely far from perfect, but people could see.)
      I will always struggle with impostor syndrome, so much so that a boring factual accounting of the work I am actually doing, makes me uncomfortable. Update your resume at least quarterly. Seriously. Even if you don’t plan to leave. And include the stuff that you are doing to manage the other team. Their boss is never going to define the roles and then enforce them (which legitimately made me laugh out loud).

      1. Catsaber*

        Thanks for your comments! And yes, I can see how that would make you laugh. :) And I would be okay with this fluidity if everyone else would stop bitching about it. Our two teams work very closely together on this particular project (data warehouse implementation), so there’s going to be overlap, but people keep passing the buck and saying things like “it’s not my responsibility,” so I feel like I end up with a lot of the grunt work just to keep things moving along, because ultimately, upper mgmt comes down and asks why things aren’t further along than they should be. So I’m pushing my own coworkers to get stuff done, and then pushing the other team to get stuff done…and at the same time, the other team sort of shirks responsibilities and pushes it onto us. So I just feel really caught in the middle, trying to get everyone to work together effectively.

        I’ve brought stuff up to my manager and he agrees with me on a lot of stuff, so when he tries to enforce the boundaries/responsibilities, upper mgmt comes down on him and is like, “We don’t care, just get it done!”

        1. LQ*

          I’m not at all surprised upper management is behaving like that. Seriously, update your resume often. And the “grunt work” stuff you’re doing likely isn’t grunt work. I ended up doing a LOT of the documentation for the stuff I’m doing, it feels like grunt work but you can use it to shape the conversations and it’s pretty powerful stuff once you look at it. Especially if you’re the one collating results into a bigger picture. That’s a task to embrace. If you can get your boss to shift some of your other duties and move you more into this that can be helpful. (But only if you want it. If you want out of this and into the individual contributor role you’re going to have to find a way to drop the balls. Good luck with that…I couldn’t master it.)

          1. Catsaber*

            Some days I do want that type of role, and some days I don’t. That also contributes to my angst. I want my career to progress…but I’m not sure in which direction. My options are basically IT manager vs IT high-level contributer (like a DBA). I think I would be happy with either. I guess I’m just feeling stuck because it’s not really solidly going in either direction, or as fast as I want it to (lol). I also just plain want more money, though I did get like a 14% equity raise while I was on maternity leave last year…6 months after a 10% raise from a promotion….so in reality, I am making a pretty decent salary for my skills and experience.

            But I have a bad habit of comparing myself to peers my age who are also in IT, and they are magical unicorns who were doing amazing things at age 21 and have had a lot more privileges/made some better choices than I did during my 20s, so they have things I want and honestly I’m just jealous. So I’m just feeling it now, and trying to deal. Also I’ve got small children and I am exhausted. :)

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      To me, it’s more like “we recognize that we’re asking way too much from you, and we appreciate that we’re getting it anyway.”

    4. Kathenus*

      I’m with the rest that this is definitely a compliment to you. In fact I kind of see it as complimenting you with a bit of side eye towards their own team. Acknowledging, maybe, that the team (or some members of it) are a pain, but that you do well dealing with it.

  168. Kathleen_A*

    Man, I don’t know what to do. Probably there’s not much to do. But…

    After three years of turmoil, I thought my department had finally settled down, but as of Monday, yet another of my team members has exited – involuntarily this time. Just to put it in perspective, out of a team of 8, only two of us have been here more than three years, and most of them have been here only about two. Two of those eight positions have been particularly turbulent, having changed hands twice in less than two years. So it’s sort of small-scale chaos, really.

    The position of the guy who was fired has been particularly chaotic. It’s a new position, having existed for only a year and a half. The person who originated it left on great terms (she was a rock star, really), but she left because she found our boss a very stressful person to work for (I am pretty sure our boss doesn’t realize this), and the reason is that our boss *is* a very stressful person to work for. The guy who was fired found her a very, very, very stressful person to work for. I honestly feel a little bad that I was one of the ones who suggested he ought to be hired.

    So is there anything anyone can suggest for when a new person starts, full of vim and vigor and hope? What can I say or do? Anything?

    1. WellRed*

      There’s nothing you can do if the problem is the boss anf and you don’t have standing to address it. I would polish the resume.

  169. Claire*

    My son just got his first salaried job!

    Not his first job–he’s worked at a language immersion camp*, among other things–but this is his first job with benefits and a full-time salary. Campus organizer for an environmental group. I am so excited for him!

    * He worked there as an RA, then dorm supervisor managing 150 kids and several RAs, and it was all in French. High school students. He came home and said that he had a new appreciation for teachers and parents.

    1. sunshyne84*

      Toutes nos felicitations! (I used google so don’t judge me if that’s wrong lol)

  170. TechWorker*

    General question: how ‘nice’ do you think managers should be about assigning work that’s part of the role and needed for the team but not interesting or a bit of a slog, etc?

    Having read Alison’s advice on some of these things fairly often it seems to go quickly to something along the lines of ‘this is part of the role, you need to understand it if you want to stay in the role’. I don’t know if it’s because my company/industry is generally *very* eager to keep people – and to be fair we hire well so it’s unusual to get someone who’s not that good, or because in my case the people complaining about the work they’re assigned are frustrated/grumpy but still doing the work vs refusing or pushing back hard on it, but I feel as a manager that would be a pretty harsh thing to say (and *my* manager would not approve).

    I basically find it hard (as a new manager) to help motivate people through tasks we both know aren’t massively interesting or ‘fun’ – but very much need doing! One of my reports at the moment does seem to understand that the work needs doing and I’m trying to help push things along so they don’t get stuck and frustrated, but my manager seems concerned that they’re not happy/keeps pushing me to check up on them. (I did *ask* my manager for advice on how to motivate people for these kind of tasks but the response was a bit like ‘we’ve just got to get through stuff and create ways to make it feel like we’re achieving things’ – which is *sort* of fair but i think going to be difficult to achieve based on the work my team has coming up).

    1. Research for days*

      This much hand holding and managing of feelings in a professional context sounds exhausting. There are parts to every job that someone may not like or enjoy, but you do it and move on. I don’t need my boss to “be nice” about assigning work. As long as the grunt work is evenly distributed and doesn’t fall on one person, people should be fine.

      1. valentine*

        Has anyone asked the employees what would make them happy? I would rather do rote stuff than things an ex-manager and colleagues found desirable. I don’t want anyone motivating me. I want them to tell me plainly what they want, so I can do it. I’m not going to appear cheerful unless my job requires me to fake that.

    2. OtterB*

      I don’t think you need to jump to “if you want to stay in the role” unless there’s a sustained pattern of trying to get out of their share of the dull tasks or significant pushback.

      I think it’s more helpful to (a) commiserate that it’s not much fun rather than try to persuade people that it’s really interesting when you all know it’s not, (b) frame it as a task that helps support the team and/or the organization, assuming people want to be supportive, and (c) share any tips you have, or maybe ask the team to share tips with their coworkers, on how to get through that work. Maybe it’s doing so much of boring-task and then rewarding yourself with a coffee or some time on fun-task, whatever.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thanks, this is useful.

        My manager is a ever optimist (he’s mostly great but this aspect I find difficult), and I’ve been a bit worried that my own negativity/concern about the project might be rubbing off the on team. I think it’s generally ok but your advice (commiserate, make sure it’s clear how it helps the whole team) is basically what I’m currently doing.

        (To clarify, I don’t at all intend to jump to ‘if you want to stay in the role’ – more that my companies general approach is so far from that it’s sort of ridiculous. They would basically always prefer to move people around and juggle projects rather than lose people. Which is also good to remember – if someone is really having a crap time on the team it might just be they’re better suited to a a slightly different role!)

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Alison’s advice tends to assume a desirable workplace that is attractive to talented employees, in an area where there is a deep talent pool, and where you’re able to fix the reasons your workplace might not be attracting or retaining top talent. Which is why it’s good advice! But it doesn’t always apply if you’re in a shallow talent pool or at an undesirable workplace, or a place where fixing the unattractive aspects of your workplace is above your pay grade. The balance of power is different in those situations, and a mediocre employee may have more relative clout in that situation.

      I’ve worked at a lot of less-desirable companies, and it is hugely frustrating to have to bend over backwards to keep a poor employee happy, because having a poor employee doing half of his expected workload is still better than having no one doing any of his expected workload. Or having to thank and reward people with cookies and candies and lunches you pay for out of pocket, rather than giving them the raise/bonus they really deserve, because you can’t get your boss to sign off on raises/bonuses. But sometimes, that’s what has to be done in a given situation.

    4. L.S. Cooper*

      I do a loooot of this sort of work, and I don’t think I could say I’m happy about it, but I do it, because it’s….my job. When I’ve done something particularly arduous (like resolving expense reports for approximately 170 different transactions), my boss normally thanks me and, on a few occasions, has bought me lunch, which I appreciate, but feels a bit over the top; I did the work because my boss asked me to do it, which means it’s part of my job, which I’m paid for.
      I guess I would say that if the work is getting done and getting done well and the complaints aren’t about the job as a whole, just about a specific sucky task, I don’t see a huge issue. Thank people, sure, but I would actually be annoyed if my boss asked me to do something like the expense reports without acknowledging that it was going to be boring as all getout. I think that leaving room for acknowledging that some tasks are boring but necessary could actually be good for morale, as opposed to forced optimism, which would make me furious.

  171. AnotherLibrarian*

    I was just chatting with a friend and I was wondering if there were any employment lawyers who could chime in. We were discussing planners. I use one planner/notebook for work and everything else in my life. So, it has all my doctors appointments, work obligations and occasionally work notes in it, along with grocery lists and things like birthday ideas for friends. She was saying that when she had worked as a supervisor, she was told not to mix work and personal in one notebook, because HR/the union could request any work notebook you had if they thought it might contain info they needed. So, in supervisor school they warned her against mixed-purpose notebooks.

    Has anyone else run into this? If so, how do you manage your life? Because man… I am totally dependent on my planner.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      In government, yes. Work-related information is work-related information, regardless of where it resides. (In Ontario, this policy came about because of an issue a few years ago, where the government of the day made a billion-dollar decision without documenting it – they deliberately kept all conversations in their personal emails in order to avoid creating records. Google “gas plant scandal Ontario” for more info if you’re interested.)

      Realistically, it doesn’t really come up in most jobs, unless you’re director-level or above. But yes, if a Freedom of Information request comes in for records that might be contained in your planner, then you’ll have to turn over at least that part of the planner in response. If you really don’t think you can do two notebooks, then you might want to try one with a divider, so you can have personal info in one section and work info in the other.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I work for a private company at the moment, so Freedom of Information requests aren’t really a thing for us. I do make sure to not keep at FERPA information in my planner. That’s fascinating though. I knew the personal email things, I just never thought of it in the context of my planner. Thank you!

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          This also comes into play with cell phones, USB drives, or anything that you realistically could store work information on.

          I was previously state/county gov’t, and my boss almost had her personal email information requested because she made the mistake of responding to a work email from her personal email account. She did not understand (i.e., I went to her boss about it type thing) why I refused to do any work related things from my personal email account. This was weird, since we both came from the same state gov’t office which had a very, very clear separation of work/personal policy.

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            Yes, I know the email rules. I learned those working for State Gov, but I was very young then and never used a planner like I do now.

            1. AnotherLibrarian*

              It occurs to me this could sound a little rude. I didn’t mean it to. Yeah, personal and work emails should never mix.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not sure if it’s the same thing, but the researchers had to keep lab notes, and they were the property of the company in case of an EPA investigation or patent lawsuit. But I doubt they used these for anything personal.

  172. DataQueen*

    I’m interviewing a candidate that I like right now, but I have a concern – she straight up told me that she left 2 jobs ago because her daughter had a baby, and she wanted to stop working and spend time with them. Then she saw an ad for her last job, thought it would be really interesting, and decided to go back to work. She worked there for 2 years. Then she left THAT job to spend more time on her arts. But now she’s seen my job post and thinks it would be very interesting. Should I risk hiring her, when it seems like she’s halfheartedly trying to retire over and over again?

    1. LQ*

      How long do most folks stay? How much would you get out of her if she stayed for 2 years? Is it a job that requires 2 years to get up to speed on? Someone who is interested in the work so much that they come out of retirement for it actually seems like a good pick. You might not get what you’d get if you hired someone who was going to stay for 20 years, but the chances of that are so low that I’m not sure that you should consider that in the mix anyway. I think make sure she really understands what the job entails and if she still wants it and she seems like the right candidate otherwise, yeah hire her. This is NOT a candidate that you want to sugar coat the work with. If it’s 1% exciting and 99% boring stuff, make sure you’re clear on that point.

    2. fposte*

      What was her duration at her earlier jobs, and is yours a job where you’re hoping to get somebody to stay much longer than two years?

      I don’t think she’s necessarily half-heartedly trying to retire; I think she doesn’t need to work, at least not career-style, so prioritizes her choices. I think it’s absolutely okay to talk about that with her and see how long she sees herself staying in the role you’re hiring for, but two years isn’t exactly flighty, either. So if you want somebody to develop a five-year plan, she wouldn’t be top of my list, but for most positions I’d probably keep her in the running.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, I think this is true. I have some jobs that really are sort of 2 to 3 year positions. I think expecting people to stay longer than 2 years often isn’t possible. She could win the lottery and move to the Islands. You just don’t know.

    3. Autumnheart*

      I think that if this person had not disclosed their life choices, their tenure at their jobs wouldn’t stand out. Is there really a difference between a person who leaves a job to focus on their art, and someone who leaves a job for another company? Either way, you’re getting the value of an engaged employee who will stay or leave based on their personal situation….just like any other employee.

      If this person is a strong candidate, sure, hire them.

    4. DataQueen*

      Thanks all for the input – you’re right that 2 years is a decent tenure that I wouldn’t be concerned about. I guess I was just worried she’d dip out earlier than that. But I’ll be very up front with her and also ask how long she’s planning to stay if this happens.

  173. Psyche*

    Is there a good way to tell a coworker that I need to be cc’d on emails regarding a certain project? This is a project I am in charge of and she is relatively new. I am not her manager but I do supervise her to an extent. We have a relatively flat hierarchy and both report to the same boss. Normally I wouldn’t ask this, but she keeps taking too much initiative and making requests to other departments that are wrong or reprioritizing another coworkers work on this project in a way that is incorrect. When I am copied on the emails I can catch these mistakes and fix them before they become an issue, but if I’m out of the loop I only find out after we miss deadlines or place an order that we don’t need.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Honestly, you can just say, “Please copy me on your emails about X project. It help for me to be in the loop.”

      1. Psyche*

        Thanks! I don’t want to come across as micromanaging, but right now I really need to be able to double check her work.

        1. BRR*

          If it’s your project, it’s not micromanaging. Add in that she’s relatively new and this is a completely normal request.

    2. OtterB*

      As Lily says, since you are in charge of the project you can easily ask to be cc’d to keep you in the loop.

      Also, if it’s an ongoing problem, I’d suggest raising it with your boss and asking if there’s a way they suggest you handle it. Because relatively-new-coworker needs be told not to take too much initiative, not as “you’re screwing up” but as “this is the way that works smoothest.”

      1. Psyche*

        Thanks. I don’t want to demoralize her. She is a bit over eager right now since she doesn’t yet fully understand the project, but later I expect her to take some ownership and don’t want to train her that everything has to go though me. I just need to know what is happening.

    3. Asta*

      I think this is the wrong request. Tell her to stop doing this stuff in the first place! A cc will just make it look like you approve.

      1. Asta*

        Oh and ask for status updates so you’re kept in the loop. Tracking sheet, check-in meetings, whatever works for you.

  174. Less Money More Problems*

    Any advice on not being consumed by anxiety when looking for jobs while unemployed? I worry that I’ll end up being so desperate for whatever is offered (I’m a recent college grad with a sparse resume) that I’ll not really consider whether the job is something that I’ll be truly comfortable with :(

    1. irene adler*

      Can you work with a jobs coach? Maybe visit the career dept at the college you recently graduated from and ask them for help regarding your anxiety? Thinking they might help with identifying what your anxiety stems from and what resources they offer than can help you.

      No job is 100% perfect. It might take two or three jobs after the first one, to find what is comfortable for you. And, you might find, once employed, that your definition of what makes a job ‘comfortable’ has changed. You can also go in, knowing that you’ll only spend a year at the job.
      Can you find some part-time work to help delay the day when you are “so desperate for whatever is offered” that you say ‘yes’ to any offer?

    2. WellRed*

      Assuming you are young, you have time
      You have time to make a.mistake or two. You don’t need to land on the perfect job but nor do you need to settle. Life us rarely what we planned. Deep breaths, you’ve got this.

    3. SciDiver*

      Depending on your field, is there a local organization you can volunteer with while you search? Even if it’s related to a hobby or interest rather than your career, having that outlet can be really helpful. My first post-grad job was definitely in line with my interests, but it was a bigger move than I wanted to do and I overlooked a couple red flags that came back to bite me. I remember how awful that anxiety is–could you maybe benefit from a bit more structure? Making plans with my friends or starting new projects around my hobbies really helped me through that time, I found it was easier to keep the anxiety at bay if you can compartmentalize your life so it isn’t just taken up by the job search.

  175. Emily*

    I think I posted here maybe 2 or 3 years ago venting about my PhD advisor and research. It was not a great time – I wasn’t sure how to make a research plan for myself, my advisor was similarly disorganized, I was being pushed to do a lot of work that benefited our lab but didn’t help me towards my goals, I was being asked to do big tasks that made no sense for someone with my background (e.g. design a complicated structure to hold a very expensive piece of scientific equipment when I have literally no engineering background) and so on.

    People here offered some helpful suggestions and commiseration, but what really ended up helping me was a change of advisor (and project)! I didn’t magically become a perfect PhD student (I’m going to finish later than most of my classmates and still struggle with initiative, procrastination, etc.), but I’m doing so much better than I was before. I’m almost ready to submit my first journal paper, am defending my candidacy in a few weeks, have a plan to graduate next May, and am no longer being eaten alive by stress.

    All this just to say that environment and coaching matter a lot, and that sometimes bailing out or changing course is the right thing to do!

    1. SciDiver*

      Congratulations! Changing advisors can be a real struggle depending on your institution, but I know a lot of folks who have done it and it was the difference between finishing and leaving. Having worked for a PI I could never study under, the advisor and the environment they create is so critical to your success and general well being. Congrats again, defending and graduating is a big deal and I hope you’re proud of what you’ve accomplished!

      1. Emily*

        Thank you! My department made switching pretty easy, fortunately. (I’m even on okay terms with my first advisor, who is a nightmare to work for but isn’t too bad otherwise.) I’m just amazed at the difference it makes – I knew theoretically that having a good advisor was important, but I never grasped how much it mattered until I went from a bad situation into a much better one.

  176. YeOldeTowneRoad*

    I just started my first job as a supervisor three weeks ago, with a new company. And now I’ve had three staff resign within two days of each other. None of the staff are leaving due to company issues (all very legitimate, personal reasons). But any suggestions on keeping morale up for the rest of the team? I work in a nonprofit setting, and turnover is always an issue. But I don’t want to burn out my staff. Or myself.

    1. Kathenus*

      Prioritize tasks and set realistic workloads during the duration of being short-staffed. Acknowledge that the same amount of work cannot be done with less people, both to your superiors and your team, and then have their back on this. As I mentioned in a thread above, the phrase ‘do more with less’ or even ‘do the same with less’ should be banished from the English language. You can either find work efficiencies to improve productivity, reduce expectations, or add resources (which could be staffing, or authorizing overtime). Great that you’re thinking of this proactively.

  177. Lx in Canada*

    Okay so you might remember my post a few weeks back about the lady at my volunteer gig who basically went all “Satan is in you” when I came out to her as being bisexual. I have not seen her since, instead agreeing to volunteer on Saturdays when she isn’t there. It’ll mean I might volunteer a little less, because I go away about once a month on the weekend, but oh well! I will deal with her someday, but this is not currently that day… Thanks for the encouragement and advice, everyone!

  178. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

    I started in my new department this week — night and day difference between here and where I came from! Aside from the faculty member who had some really troubling things to say about “sexual signaling in the office” and women’s elbows showing (yes, really!), I actually feel super at home over here and am less nervous about the teaching aspect of this than I was when I started.

    Transitioning from having my own office with a door to having a (frankly pretty nice) cubicle next to a window is the hardest thing so far. Seriously. I know I’m only a week in but compared to the last department, this is paradise.

      1. Carrie Fisher’s Middle Finger*

        I desperately want to make celebratory flashing-of-elbows a thing, now.

      1. Carrie Fisher’s Middle Finger*

        If you can believe it, this was actually a woman. “Elbows!” is the new office meme.

        She also refuses to own a cell phone, reached out to grab my new co-worker’s pants leg (!) without her consent (!!), and in the middle of the discussion looked me (dressed in a very sensible dress + cardigan combo) up and down and asked, “so … are you going to dress for teaching?” (I plan to wear clothes, if that’s what you mean?!)

        Luckily, my new boss was more or less on the side of “holy shit, what is wrong with this person” and told us to disregard all but about a handful of things she told us (all of which had to do with pedagogy, not professional standards).

        1. WellRed*

          You can tell someone works in an academic environment when they start throwing around words like pedagogy. Congratz!

          1. valentine*

            reached out to grab my new co-worker’s pants leg (!) without her consent (!!)
            Aiming for a flash of ankle, eh? She’s projecting.

        2. sacados*

          Deadpan expression:
          “I’m not really a fan of teaching in the nude, I’ve found that my feet just get too cold.”

  179. MouseMiceSpouseSpice*

    I just want to rave about my manager and workplace for a minute (and admittedly maybe a little bit humblebrag).

    I’m moving to a different state to be with my fiancé, so I gave notice at my work. The timing is not great (one of my coworkers recently left, and our busy season is in about 2 months–just barely enough to train someone new in) but nonetheless, my manager was really cool about it, wished me good luck, said he’d give me a glowing reference, etc. Other co-workers, when they found out, also wished me all the best even though my leaving will definitely make their lives harder. I was very touched by all their kind comments and well-wishes.

    And then, a twist! My manager came to me at the end of the day and asked if I’d be willing to stay on as a remote worker. The company allows WFH sometimes, but remote work is definitely abnormal–and my manager has to get it approved by our CEO before everything’s set in stone–so this is a big deal. And then my boss forwarded me an email where he’d been discussing the possibility with upper management and they’d basically said “probably” and I noticed at the bottom in his initial request that he said I was the best [my position] he’d ever seen, which was incredibly gratifying.

    Y’all, I’m just super happy. I’ve never worked somewhere where I felt this appreciated and supported. I find out Monday if this is for sure happening, fingers crossed!

    I am a little concerned that other people who have my same position for other departments will be upset that the same option isn’t given to them, but realistically that’s not my problem, so trying to put it out of my mind… And unfortunately it definitely will increase costs to the company a bit to have me working remote as I sometimes work with physical objects that will have to be mailed to my original office location, so it wouldn’t make sense to allow remote work more broadly.

    1. MissBliss*

      Congratulations, that’s awesome! While I can see how it could upset colleagues in the same position, I think we all recognize when someone does a truly stellar job and I’m sure they’ll have that in mind. I’m glad you have a great supervisor advocating for you!

  180. Lucy Preston*

    What are the general policies on reprinting check stubs?

    One of our employees needs copies of their timesheets and check stubs for personal legal purposes. Problem is that they need a whole year’s worth.

    Our accounting system doesn’t have a reprint option. Checks are printed on the old impact type printer with the carbon-esque copies (the kind where the paper is hooked together end to end) for the office files. Thus, someone would have to stand there and sort through a year’s worth of checks to recopy all of these. HR/PR department has a staff of 1.

    This is an extreme example, but people are always asking for check stub copies, despite always getting a check with the stub attached each time.

    I’m not sure charging for reprints is the way to go, but I”m open to suggestions.

    1. MissBliss*

      I wouldn’t charge the person currently asking, but I would consider implementing a new policy. Or, better yet, is it possible to have an online system that allows people to download their own pay stubs on their own time? My fiancé’s employer has a system like that, and they have about 10 people working there, so I know there are options available for smaller companies.

    2. Nacho*

      It sounds like you might want to improve your accounting system if this is becoming an issue for you.

    3. Shiny Swampert*

      Hang on.
      I’m in the UK. My pay slip is electronic. It appears in our pay slip section of the intranet when we log in and we can download any number of times. Even when I got paper payslips they could easily be reprinted. Is this not how it works in the US?!

      1. Payrollchicka*

        Most places have changed to electronic system. But some smaller companies still issue a physical check.

        1. WellRed*

          My company has 10 people. We have direct deposit and all the other modern inconveniences. Didn’t even know carbon was an option any more. Make it work, not the employees fault you are in the stone age.

      2. Shiny Swampert*

        Amazing. I’ve been employed for 20+ years and have always been paid directly into my bank account and payslips could always be reproduced easily.

      3. Autumnheart*

        It’s totally how it works in the US. The OP’s company is using a system that must be at least what, 30 years old? Direct deposit has been a thing since the ‘90s.

    4. Payrollchicka*

      I never used to save paystubs when I got them at all. Changing to a system where they can be accessed by computer would be a lifesaver. It’s very easy and even quickbooks can do this.

    5. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I do payroll and we will reprint even though ours are online for the employee to access on their own. But, it’s a pretty simple reprint with the system we use. It’s trickier since you are on the older system. If you are a very small company, I’d recommend taking the time to separate the copies and scanning them in each week to create your own electronic copies. Obviously, that doesn’t help for this one. I wouldn’t be against charging if they request for more than 1 check stub and I couldn’t find any regulations that prohibits it, but definitely check your state.

    6. LQ*

      I feel like the organizational balance for this is absolutely not to charge for reprints for current staff. I could see charging for former staff. But even then it should be fairly small.

      A lot of times when people need paystubs they are already going through something hard (not always but often enough that I’d want to consider it) and if you then charge someone you’re punishing them for something they have to get that at a time when they are struggling. You can bet the hours they spend talking to their coworkers and the aggravation and opposite of good will the company is buying is going to make it so much not worth it. You’d save money by paying someone every two weeks to come in and scan them and store them digitally. And that’s a bad solution on the list of options.

      Organizationally it’s absolutely not worth it to charge. Find a better solution.

      If you are personally the one who has to do it, push it to leadership to have a better solution.

      1. Lucy Preston*

        I’m chiming in late just for some clarification. I am that department of 1 that I spoke of before. I have pushed for better solutions, only to come up short.

        I really don’t want to charge. That’s why I was coming here to ask for suggestions.

        I can’t change the accounting system. There is positively no budget for hiring extra help. I can’t make grown ups accountable for their personal paperwork.

        I do like the idea of scanning in advance, thank you. Still, that adds extra to my workload.

  181. desk platypus*

    My department decided to put up a communal top shelf dedicated to staff’s family and pet photos. Surrounded by little knick knacks there are now husband/wife pics, pics with the kids, etc. I’m personally not into it because I’m such a private person and also hate myself in photos. I’m currently dodging questions about when I’ll put a picture up. I was going to write about just that situation and how annoying it is, but then…

    Another coworker placed a picture earlier, said, “There’s my family,” and walked away. We were all busy at the moment so kept moving along. But just now I passed by and glanced up to see a mini framed painting of Jesus Christ. I scuttled right back to my desk in disbelief. Knowing this coworker, this is in no way a joke. She’s dead serious about it.

    No one else has noticed yet. No one else in the department is religious. But even if they were…. what are y’alls thoughts on having a religious picture in a group area? We’re not visible to the public, but still. I might give a heads up to my supervisor later, but only because I know this coworker will get extremely defensive if someone takes umbrage with it.

    1. fposte*

      Oy yoi yoi. I think you’re fine mentioning this to your manager, but I think your employer might want to check with a lawyer before taking action here, especially if they don’t have an office decorations policy.

      A picture of Jesus in her own personal workplace space would look to be protected; while this isn’t her *own* personal workplace space it’s seemingly being treated as personal space. I wouldn’t ask her to remove it without being damn sure I was on solid legal ground. I also think they need to be ready for Jesus being joined by Satan, various Avengers, Steven Universe, etc. (At which point they can ban the whole thing, I guess.)

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Knowing what this picture probably looks like, I kinda want to say “Well, that’s a white man with blue eyes, so it’s obviously not Jesus. Must be a cousin of hers or something.” ;-)

    3. sunshyne84*

      I don’t see the problem. The pictures represent you individually and Jesus is what’s important to her. *shrugs* I don’t have kids or pets, I’d be tempted to put an empty carton of Blue Bell up there.

    4. RandomU...*

      It sounds like she found a creative way to do what you want do (not put up your picture or whatever). Find something you are vaguely interested in that you don’t care about your coworkers knowing and toss that up as a contribution.

      If she had put a picture of Buddha up and said he/she is the most important person in my life, would you have the same reaction? I think you’re overreacting to the picture of Jesus. Does it have a speaker in the frame and is preaching to you all day? Does it spray holy water on you as you walk by? Does it offer you a small book and a chance to talk? No, just a small picture on a shelf that will soon be covered when someone adds a picture of Biffy, Buffy, and Bootsy?

      I’m not sure I’d be bothered to bring it up to anyone and wouldn’t give it a second though.

      1. valentine*

        Does it spray holy water on you as you walk by?
        This would be amazing, if possibly discriminatory and allegedly dangerous to demons.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Is this something you want to make a fuss over? Only you can decide.
      As for your photo, consider a pet/plant/car photo or a photo of your favorite pint of ice cream.
      (I’m in a serious, committed relationship with Ben and Jerry.) :P

    6. WellRed*

      The mistake here is that your company thought this was an appropriate idea in the first place.

    7. Notthemomma*

      A bit off topic, but why not buy a frame and put up the photogenic family that comes in the insert? Ppl will stop asking and you can have a random giggle about it.

    8. Lilysparrow*

      It’s for personal stuff. This is personal to her.

      If you are the only one who noticed, you only noticed because you looked closely at it, and she made one cryptic comment before walking away, then I hardly think that amounts to proselytizing.

  182. Ethics of office lunch*

    I’m newish (2 months) to my office and we have a TON of food around. Sponsored breakfast, lunches, ice cream socials, coffee and cookies in the afternoon…. It mostly comes from vendors, who coordinate with our office admin about where to order from.
    One popular of caterers is Chick-Fil-A.
    I get it, fried chicken is tasty, they can do large orders easily – but I don’t want to support their anti-equality politics. Is it worth saying something to our admin who help set these up? Or just don’t eat it then donate to the Trevor Project?

    1. stitchinthyme*

      I have this dilemma too. My company caters in one meal a week, alternating between breakfast and lunch, and a few times they have gotten Chick-Fil-A for breakfast. I wouldn’t eat it regardless because I hate their food, but I’ve often thought I should say something to management about their anti-LGBT policies. So far I haven’t gotten up the courage to do it; I just don’t eat the stuff when they get it. If anyone asks why I’m not eating it, I tell them, but so far management has not asked.

      1. valentine*

        Both of you: Say something. No reason the company should condone homophobic violence. And you don’t have to feel guilty or try to balance it out with a donation.

    2. Going anon for this one*

      Hoo boy… I’m not going to use my regular name for this one, because I’m a coward. And because someone who knows me well enough might recognize me from this post.

      I have a LGBTQ kid. And this kid has a lot of LGBTQ friends. And they all freaking LOVE Chick-fil-a. As we say in our house, “hate their politics, love their chicken.” So we decided that we’re going to go ahead and do business with them, but give to appropriate causes to make up for it. And I figure if the next generation of LGBTQ folks is okay with that, it’s good enough for me. (Hobby Lobby falls under this category as well.)

      I understand some people are going to be horrified by this mentality. But sometimes practicality flies in the face of principle. Sometimes there’s only one place in the food court that the kid likes. Sometimes the band parent who’s in charge of dinner gets Chick-fil-a. Sometimes your entire study group chooses Chick-fil-a- and you don’t want to be That Person. So you decide to compromise. Am I on a road that’s paved with good intentions and can only lead to one place? Perhaps.

      1. Anon this time*

        I have LGBTQ family/friends who love Chick-fil-a. I feel like this weird truce/tolerance is more common if you are from the south where CFA is just so much more a part of the culture.

      2. Anonforthis*

        I have to agree with you. My teenaged kids both have friends who are LGBTQ and they all LOVE Chick-Fil-a, eating it in preference to any other fast food.
        Also, sometimes chicken is just chicken.

    3. new kid*

      gay girl who eats chick-fil-a here… I take the mindset that if I only wanted to give my money to companies that were wholly ethical and I knew that I 100% approved of what that money would go towards, then I would never be able to shop anywhere. No ethical consumption under capitalism, and all that.

      That’s not to say that you can’t decide for yourself where to draw your own boundaries on things like this, but just a note of support for your chicken loving admin and coworkers. In the world that we live in, I don’t know that it makes sense to equate ‘uses this product’ with ‘supports this company’s view/business practices’. Just think about how many people use Amazon while fully admitting how terrible they are/treat their employees etc. It’s objectively not great and people can definitely choose not to do business with them because of it, but I’m also not going to judge folks for using a service that makes their lives significantly easier, you know? idk.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        There’s a difference between ordering chicken or buying something off Amazon and crossing a picket line, for example. I totally agree that if I only shopped at companies I 100% agreed with, I wouldn’t shop anywhere. Having said that, I do have one or two that I avoid for specific reasons that are deeply personal.

        1. new kid*

          Sure, I think my main point was just that you could argue all day about where to draw those lines, so each person needs to draw them for themselves and it’s probably not super productive to judge others based on the products/services they patronize.

          Not crossing a picket line is definitely where I draw one of my personal lines too though, for what it’s worth. I hope the worker’s rights resurgence starts to gain more steam because we could use it in a lot of different industries right now.

    4. Why does it have to be so tasty?*

      Also chickening (ha!) out and going anon for this one. Chick-fil-a is a super popular choice at my employer for catering. The only time I eat it is when work offers it (and no other option) for a working lunch. I have a LGBT kid. My brother-in-law (who is my brother-in-law because he’s married to my husband’s brother, so LGBT) and I were discussing and I was relieved to find out he also eats it when it’s a work thing. I’m not going to give them my money, but I’m not hurting them by throwing out the food that’s already been purchased.

    5. OysterMan*

      I struggle with this with Jimmy John’s. Love the sandwiches, hate the owner’s killing of animals.

      Chick-Fil-A, Walmart, and Hobby Lobby are the companies I’m best at sticking to my boycott. I’ve got to be desperate to give them my money.

      I’m too cowardly to speak up when Chick-Fil-A or Jimmy John’s is catered (speaking up always seems to go poorly for me) so I just choose not to give them my own money.

    6. Kathenus*

      Very similar to so many other responses on this – there’s no right or wrong way to deal with these types of things. So much is dependent upon your personal feelings/style/philosophy. I have chosen not to eat at Chick-Fil-A or buy Barilla pasta (LGBTQ-related) or go to Jimmy Johns (trophy hunting). There are some other stores I’ve stopped shopping at due to political support of some specific things I disagree with. In some of these cases I’ve written to the corporate via the website to say why. Not sure if it makes an impact or not, but it’s my decision. I’m sure lots of things I do buy have issues I don’t know about or aren’t as important causes for me personally. So I try to not beat myself up either way – if I do decide to boycott selectively, or if I ‘miss’ a big issue and patronize someone maybe I wouldn’t if I researched better.

      Do what works best for you – and for that you may find that what you do in your personal life, and what you choose to spend political capital on, are different. And this too is OK, I absolutely believe there’s no one way to stand up for your beliefs, the world is filled with nuance and context so just do what you think best and feel good about that decision.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      If you’ve only been there 2 months, I think it’s too soon to weigh in on this kind of thing, unless you are in upper management. Get a bit of relational traction before you start trying to make changes.

  183. Maple*

    I have a question about temp/employment agencies. Can I sign up with more than one of them at the same time, and would that help me to find a good position faster?

    1. irene adler*

      You most certainly can sign up at more than one agency.
      They don’t have the same jobs, so doing so increases your chances of scoring a good position. And, each agency does not need to know you’ve signed up at any other agencies.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Absolutely! It’s very common. Just beware that a few of them will ask you what other agencies you are using and what interviews they’ve sent you on. DO NOT TELL THEM! Just say they are the only ones or that you’ve been asked to keep that information confidential. Otherwise they will call the companies to try to send their other candidates on interviews, which will lessen your own chances.

  184. Hawk*

    Yesterday something a coworker did struck me as off and I’m wondering if/how I should respond.

    We work in outreach for a government organization. In our job, we visit different locations. Some have collections of our materials, but the majority don’t.

    Over the past few weeks, someone from one of the organizations that has a collection called to follow up with my coworker. The caller had changed positions, and due to leadership change on our side (and possibly more), my coworker hasn’t been there in a while. This happened with me at one of my locations. I was honest with them when I returned. I had the busiest year with my own wedding and a grandparent death, plus two different managers. They were understanding.

    So my coworker finally calls this person back after phone tag yesterday, and the conversation was not what I was expecting. The coworker explained that the teapots were lost in transit and that we didn’t have any. Well, this is news to me, since I was at my locations last week with slightly different teapots! After the coworker hung up, they said, “That sounded plausible, right? Like that could have really happened?”

    I couldn’t say anything. I know we do have issues with things going missing… but… was she lying? And this was to a community partner.

    Is there anything I could/should do? If the partner calls, I don’t want to lie to her, but I certainly heard the conversation! Do I act confused? This coworker tends to be mean-spirited towards me at times and we need to work together for events.

    1. fposte*

      Holy cow. Is there a manager available in this? I’d consult. If not, I would be truthful in my own communication with the partner but not necessarily commit about what you heard from your co-worker.

      (And no, nobody believes “It got lost in the mail.”)

      1. Hawk*

        Our manager literally just left on vacation for a week. I do have a couple managers that technically are above her, but we were told to bring stuff to them. I know one of them trusts me pretty well. I’m doing something for her right now, actually. Also there was another witness. I’ve been having problems with this coworker for years, and have brought it up, but this is probably the blatantly worst thing I’ve seen since we started.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “That sounded plausible, right? Like that could have really happened?”

      I don’t know of any more obvious way of admitting she was lying, beyond saying “I was lying.”

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Is there anything I could/should do? If the partner calls, I don’t want to lie to her, but I certainly heard the conversation! Do I act confused?

        I would act like you didn’t hear the phone call, and say whatever you would have said if you truly hadn’t heard it.

  185. stitchinthyme*

    I’ve been at my current job six years and I still don’t feel like I know anything, and that’s not entirely impostor syndrome talking (though I am fully aware that it’s an issue for me).

    I am a software developer, and although I’m no rock star, I can hold my own as far as that goes. The problem is, my company has a focus on a specific thing — let’s say teapot networks. The problem is, even after 6 years, I still know virtually nothing about teapot networks; I am still coming across terms that I have no idea what they mean, and none of the coding I’ve done deals directly with these networks — it’s all support stuff that helps the code that deals with the networks directly work. There is obviously a need for this or I wouldn’t have been employed here 6 years, but I still feel like I’m not getting much of the “important” work because I can’t do anything related to the core function of the company. I spend a lot of time bored because I’m not getting enough work.

    I have asked about training, but I only get vague answers, and I’m not even sure there IS formal training in this subject. I once tried to read a book my boss lent me, but it was sleep-inducing. I learn better by doing than by reading or listening. I think what would really help me would be if they could give me a relatively easy project and someone who has the necessary skills to kind of work with me through it so I could learn it, but I don’t think there ARE any projects that easy, and even if there were, no one else has the time to hold my hand through it.

    I know that as far as management is concerned, I’m a valued employee; they gave me a pretty big raise this year and pretty much said flat-out that they are trying to stem a recent exodus of long-time employees by offering the remaining ones more incentive to stay. My performance reviews have been consistently good (generally 4 out of 5, or “Exceeds Expectations”). I’m also pretty much the only one in the company who knows anything about databases, so anytime data storage is needed, I’m the one who designs it and writes the code to handle it, so I do have my own little area where I’m the subject-matter expert.

    So my dilemma is: do I stay and be content with periods of boredom and never getting any of the cool projects, try to find ways to learn more, or accept that this is just never gonna be my area of expertise and start looking elsewhere? In general I like the company, most of the people, and I especially like having my own office. I have no issues with the pay or benefits, and when I do have work to do, it’s generally interesting.

    1. ArtK*

      Whether you stay or go, look for training. There are low-cost sources for a lot of training, like Udemy. That can at least give you some background to be able to add to conversations.

      If you do decide to stay, find some serious training on your own and go to the boss: “This is what I want to do.” Don’t leave it up to them to figure out what’s right for you.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      A piece of advice I once heard about deciding whether or not to stay in a job, or look for a new one:

      Ask yourself three questions:
      1 – Do you like what you’re doing?
      2 – Do you like who you’re doing it with/for? (coworkers and/or company)
      3 – Are you learning new things?

      If you answer “No” to two or more, it’s time to start looking. (That said, you can also start looking for zero or one no’s, or stay put with three no’s, depending on other circumstances. And these questions are silent on how picky you should be about your next job.)

      If you do decide to try to learn more within your current company, are there any opportunities for you to learn by pair programming with a more experienced colleague? Basically, the two of you sit at the same computer, and one person (usually the less experienced person) does all the typing/inputing and both people think and discuss. We’ve found it to be very effective both as a learning tool for newer developers and as a knowledge transfer method at all levels.

      1. Reba*

        Love that checklist.

        Asking bout pair programming is a great idea! Some companies do 100% paired work.

        I also thought maybe a CS MOOC course? More attention-holding than a textbook, might have assignments/projects you can learn on. Doing some kind of self-study might help you decide whether you want to continue to pursue this specialization or move on.

    3. Qwerty*

      Does your company use code review software? When I’ve wanted to branch out and learn about a product or programming language that a different team worked on, I’d look through their code reviews. At first just silently lurking and reading their discussions on whether X or Y was the best practice, then figure out who would be a helpful person to approach and ask questions about how to learn more.

      If you don’t have enough work, can you pick up small tasks for one of the other teams? Start with the easy stuff that no one else wants to do (as in something that would be given to an intern or entry level dev) and work your way up to more in-depth tasks as you get comfortable. I’ve made many friends by writing unit tests for legacy code on other teams or picking up repetitive tasks that felt like grunt-work to devs with domain knowledge but gave me exposure to the different parts of their app. Once they’ve worked with you and know that you can work with teapot networks, they’ll start thinking of you when opportunities for cool projects come available.

      Also talk to your quality engineers / testers! They have so much knowledge and often are better at explaining things in non-technical terms.

    4. Darren*

      My steps whenever I’ve wanted to move to another area of my company with my software development skills has always been to approach the subject matter expert and have a discussion about whether they could keep me in mind to recommend as a resource for easier projects and whether they currently have any of those (or even slightly harder ones that are just low priority so nobody needs them urgently) then I do my stellar work at the things I do well in, and start doing a bit of that new area to build up my domain knowledge. Usually I can start taking on larger bits of work with actual deadlines in that area after 6 months.

      The easiest way to think of it is what would those guys have a new grad or an intern work on? Those are the kinds of projects that have low risks of failure, long lead times, and they can always take over (and put you on the subsequent code reviews) once it becomes urgent.

    5. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I’d be content with boredom. But also might go onto online courses to pass time. I mean whatever teapot networks you do, there *must* be something sleep-inducing on youtube about them. Also if it is something officially taught, google-fu the .edu. A lot of the IT departments were the first to put their course materials on the net, and even if it is something old, the basics of a ”Teapotnetworks 101” will help you along. Also, if you are using some vendor tool, there usually is a group somewhere on a BBS chatting odds and ends, I go to these on ”bored time” as if someone comes and looks, theres shedloads of code being flipped around so it isn’t like I’m watching cat videos. And you learn a lot and notice other people have the exact same issues as you did.

      And don’t dismiss the SME in databses part. Brush up on that side of things, maybe even look if you always use a certain database go onto the vendor pages and see if there is a certification you can take. That is transferrable skills right there.

  186. RemotePT*

    Hi! Looking for some tips on how to find part-time, fully remote work. My industry is typically full time in-office. So I am willing to look at related industries. But when I go to job sites specific to my industry, I see all full time options that are typical. Anyone have tips for my job search? I would also be very happy with project-based temporary contract work, but don’t know how to go about starting that.

    1. Dana B.S.*

      FlexJobs.com is good. It’s a paid service. Though I haven’t actually gotten a job from them. I was using to find something to supplement a full-time job, but happened to find a better paying full-time job instead.

    2. sunshyne84*

      I haven’t done remote work, but I have looked on remote.co and they seem to have a lot of variety of jobs.

    3. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I’ve found rather slim pickings on Upwork and Freelancer, Upwork seems to have a lot more going on though, if you happen to be in one of the lucky categories.

  187. Chereche*

    Just a bit of a vent I guess. I randomly while out of the office decided to get flowers for my unit and went around distributing it. Went around giving them out and one of my colleagues (who I admittedly am not fond with for a variety of unrelated issues) decided that she had an issue with the one I presented her with and decided to rifle through the remaining flowers for a different colour. It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess. Like hey, for absolutely no reason I’m giving you a flower but you decide it’s not good enough and want to choose your own.

    Sigh. Mini-vent over.

    Thank you very much.

    1. sunshyne84*

      That’s pretty rude, just remember people’s issues are usually not about you at all.

    2. Utoh!*

      Next time, only buy enough for everyone *but* her and say, sorry, I did not know what color to get you so I decided not to get you one…;)

    3. Blue Eagle*

      Are you giving gifts to make the recipient happy or to make your own self happy?
      If it is to make the recipient happy, then what is wrong with letting them choose the color they prefer. Having to accept something you don’t want reminds me of the person who wrote in to say that when his co-worker insisted on him accepting a food item he did not want, he accepted it and then immediately put it in his trash can. So going back to the original question – – is the gift about the giver or the receiver?

      1. valentine*

        They didn’t have to accept it, but a bigger rejection than declining and choosing something not on offer is way out of line. It’s a gift, not Choose Your Own Adventure.

  188. TPS Cover Sheet*

    I’m undecided if I am mad or depressed. I was to an interview and thought it went well… but they didn’t shortlist me. For the utter bullshit reason that I am too experienced and wouldn’t be happy in my role… like why the hell did I apply for that role then? Do they think sitting on the street with a paper cup and a cardboard ”Will code SQL for food” is going to be making me happier? Too experienced my ass, that is age discrimination and nothing else. I think I’ll make a tribunal complaint of discrimination and we’ll see who is happy then.

    I really shouldn’t be having any feelings as I go to all the interviews without expectations… I had hopes for the other job I interviewed with, but it was one of those public jobs and they are always hiring internally. But I guess I need to look at the fun parts… being on the JobCentre dole also gives me the opportunity to apply for all kinds of silly things, like a depot train driver.

    1. Colette*

      That’s a legitimate reason to not hire someone, though – they want someone who will be happy to do the work they need done, not someone who will be bored or constantly trying to do a job they find more interesting.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, it’s not that they’re concerned about your happiness, they’re concerned about your unhappiness affecting your work. I know it sucks, but if you have several equal candidates, and one of them has extenuating circumstances that make you think they won’t be happy in the job, they’re going to fall to the bottom of the stack.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        This. Also, I never hire anyone who I think is just interested in “a job”. I want someone who clearly really wants “this job.” Maybe I’m misreading this, but it sounds like you think the act of applying is enough to indicate that you really want “this job” and I have found that it really isn’t. Best of luck on your job search! I hope you find something soon.

      3. TPS Cover Sheet*

        Ummm.. no it’s not a legitimate reason. I had all the qualifications and experience they listed. Happiness was not a criteria on the list. The job was maybe a step or two down the ladder, but it was hands-on tech, and they were looking to filling two roles, a junior and a senior. Besides which it all clicked for me: walking distance to work, interesting proprietary software based on a stack I understand so my learning curve would be unstressful, no worries of being demoted to middle management anytime soon, but keep my fingers in the pie… it was perfect. And I have a lot of transferrable skills and experience dealing with difficult customers, so I thought I would be an asset for any company.

        I do not apply for jobs just for shits and giggles. They are going to find a legitimate reason on their doorstep when that official letter for age discrimination lands.

        1. Get Over It*

          It’s a legitimate reason for the employer.

          You don’t get a job just because you match the requirements. That’s not how hiring works. We hire the best fit FOR US. Someone overqualified who is likely to be bored and move on quickly – based on OUR read of the situation – is not that person.

          If the attitude you are showing here is coming across in person, it’s no wonder you aren’t getting hired. As for your discrimination claim? My bet is they won’t bet an eyelash, because they’ll have appropriately documented why they aren’t hiring you.

          And they’re right.

          1. TPS Cover Sheet*

            Yes, I hope they did make appropriate documentation, as I’m now so bored I’m going to make them go through the full ACAS route.

          2. Rainbow without Richie Blackmore*

            So it is also OK not to hire women or minorities or disabled people because of your opinion they would not be right for your workplace? Sorry you are gay, you’re not best fit for our workplace.

    2. Asta*

      This is the kind of thing you want to address in a cover letter.

      I’m sorry you’re disappointed.

      1. TPS Cover Sheet*

        Problem is, cover letters seldom get through to the actual hiring managers unless you have a really direct connection. The CV’s get munged up into some automagic systems and the recruitment agencies don’t pass them across.

        And I do point this (what I wrote) in the interviews. I’m reluctant to say it is because of health reasons I am looking for local jobs, lest they think I’ll pull a karoshi, but I just got my lungs working and I dread if I have to go back on the London run as then I’ll be back sounding like a teakettle. I just say I have been contracting and don’t want to live out of a suitcase, which also is true.

        And I do write in the cover letters, even they are a waste, my reasons for looking at a local job and that I am happy with the role and the salary range offered, otherwise I would have not applied. Actually a hiring manager called me with a feedback and said, as a public body they get a lot of applications, and that did stand out as they know a lot are ”must apply for 10 jobs a week” cases. I didn’t get that job as they had people who had worked for the council so knew the systems, so back to the catch-22.

  189. Anony404*

    How do I learn to stand up for myself at work? I often run into issues where clients or coworkers will treat me like I am 5 years old (because I am the youngest by about 20 years) and like I do not know what I am doing. I don’t like being pushed around, but that’s what happens because I have always been quiet and don’t know how to speak up when people are rude. Thanks!

    1. sunshyne84*

      You have to take baby steps as you gain more confidence to speak up and start addressing things in the moment. Don’t let time pass and let your frustration build up until you explode over somebody more than they may deserve.

    2. Reba*

      Advice I’ve given and taken before: practice being assertive in low-stakes situations outside of work. “excuse me, I was here first” if someone cuts you off in line. Correcting someone on your name when you would otherwise be inclined to let it slide. Telling the server if your order is wrong at a restaurant.

      Not knowing what your work situations are about, I do think FWIW that rudeness and not respecting your competence are somewhat different issues.

    3. LQ*

      I write in all my notebooks that I owe it to the people we serve (public service) to speak up. It really helps. When I’m going into a contentious meeting I’ll write it on the top of the page. I find myself leaning on that fairly frequently. It gets easier, but when I’m struggling that’s always my go to. I’m not doing it for me, I’m doing it for the people of the state. (It sounds giant and grandious to me but it also makes me feel very small at the same time. But like I HAVE to do it.)

  190. Nacho*

    I’m part of my team’s Spirit team right now, but I’m not really interested in any of the things the team’s doing at the moment, or the idea of decorating our office in general. Should I quit the team, or just silently stop doing as much stuff for them and focus more on my actual job instead?

    1. Coco*

      I vote for quit the team. If you are still on the team, you can get pulled in, people may direct team activity questions to you, etc. By quitting you’re letting everyone know you aren’t available so there are expectations.

    2. sunshyne84*

      Have you been on the team for awhile? Maybe it’s time to recruit new employees to all committees. If not you can still quit. Work comes first so that’s always a good excuse.

    3. Autumnheart*

      I vote for “quit the team”. You could look at rejoining the team at a future time when you’re more into it.

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Are there any kinds of spirit-related things you would enjoy?

      I accidentally ended up Hall Council President my senior year of college, and I ended up using it as an opportunity to try out some different kinds of activities that seemed more appealing to me, a grumpy introverted senior, than the usual fare. I figured that either I’d get the kind of activities I’d actually enjoy, or I’d get people showing up to the Hall Council meetings to complain and then I could make them run the other more typical activities. In the end, no one showed up at meetings to complain and we had a variety of nice, small-scale low-key activities that year.

  191. AvonLady Barksdale*

    A short story about weirdness from Bosses of Toxic Jobs Past… I worked for a company that was absolutely horrible. Started out sounding great, then I quickly realized it had Problems, and I did not respond well. I left without anything lined up– kind of a, “leave before I got fired” thing. While I was there, I connected with the CEO on LinkedIn and I didn’t drop the connection after I left, partly out of laziness and partly because I wanted to see where this dumpster fire of a company would end up. (For what it’s worth, all of the partners left in spectacular fashion and the CEO basically burned the company’s initial concept and recently started another one, which he’s been promoting heavily through LinkedIn and other industry channels.)

    I’m not very active on LinkedIn beyond updating my profile occasionally and using it to search for jobs. But this week I posted something (an article I wrote got picked up by an industry trade, go me) and this CEO liked it, which completely weirded me out. I’m not spending any time wondering why, but it’s certainly curious that someone who treated me and others with such absolute vitriol and told me I was basically an idiot would have any reaction to something positive that I did.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Eh! Don’t read too much into it. People click the like buttons all the time and he was probably curious.
      But congratulations on the article!

  192. Bend & Snap*

    Update from my life burnout question from last week–I’m trying to make small changes, and one change I’ve made is reading before bed instead of playing with my phone.

    It’s making a big difference! I’m able to go to bed with a calmer mind and go to sleep more easily. Thank you!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So the experts are right! They say you should unplug before bed, that the activity sensors in your brain don’t power down when you’re using technology.

      I need to try this again, I’m the worst at putting my phone down and picking up a book without the backlight attached to screw with my brain sensors.

      1. Psyche*

        There is a lot of evidence that it is actually the blue light that does it. If you have to use a phone or other electronic device before bed, try using a red filter.

      2. Bend & Snap*

        I used my Kindle and even that was better! I don’t have any physical books anymore.

  193. Rainy days*

    Okay, it’s pretty late to post, but in case I can get some thoughts–

    I work at a small nonprofit and my boss, the Executive Director, recently informed me that she is stepping down in two months. She asked me to take on the role of Interim Executive Director for several months while the board searches for a replacement. I am not sure whether to accept the role and I’m wondering if anyone has experience with this kind of thing.

    Some relevant factors:
    – I work part time (.6 FTE) and I’m not sure it’s good to be lead by someone part-time.
    – I believe that I am the most capable and qualified staff person in terms of my management skills. I already manage a number of remote and part-time employees who work with us; no one else in the organization actually has direct reports or manages any other staff.
    – The second-choice person is a good worker but not a good manager; she can be abrasive and has a tendency to talk behind others’ back, so I am concerned about her being in a leadership position.
    – I was actually hoping to decrease my hours at work as I’ll be going back to school and I’m worried about taking on new responsibilities. If I agree, I may need to delay going back to school.

    Help!

    1. Kathenus*

      Will taking the interim position help you achieve future career goals? If yes, that’s certainly a consideration. Do you think that the several month duration is realistic, or is it likely to be indefinite? Another thing to keep in mind. Can you ask for a limited scope of duties versus an overwhelming combination of your current job and the interim ED that fits with the time that you can dedicate with school?

      Basically there are lots of things to consider and the pros/cons that are specific to you will be the deciding factors. For me it always helps to write these down and literally look at them in black and white to help weight next steps. Congrats on the respect she’s showing in asking you, though, regardless of what you decide.

  194. EEK! The Manager*

    Has anyone here ever successfully coordinated an office decluttering swap event?

    What kind of ground rules did you set? How did you discourage people from contributing junk that should really be trashed? My team has been asked to coordinate a decluttering event to prep for a massive office move and I don’t even know where to start. We’ve been here 18+ years and each office has its own closet filled with who knows what…

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve never heard of this kind of thing! Is this essentially a company garage sale?

      I would just make clear guidelines about things having to be in “sturdy, usable condition.” and just say “if it’s trash, throw it away!”

      1. EEK! The Manager*

        Pretty much! Not with office furniture or equipment that we’ll need to move to our new building. But stuff like leftover party supplies or seasonal decorations. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I dislike the whole idea. Most of this stuff is probably not in usable condition. I think I’m going to advocate for a different approach.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m curious – what is a decluttering swap? What kinds of things would people normally contribute?

      Also, if you haven’t already seen the “Munkensmat” episode of Brooklyn 99, you need to do that immediately. Hurray for office decluttering!

    3. Reba*

      Setting aside that “decluttering” and “swap” are kinda antithetical…. :) I do really think that redistributing still-good stuff and cleaning out the closets should be treated as separate tasks.

      Look at what an org’s surplus department might take. Maybe invite people to bring stuff with very limited criteria: less than X years old, known to be functioning… Maybe you could ask people to inventory those things. Unopened/still good supplies that you no longer use can be donated or shared (I take it that is the “swap,” people can take it home?). The rest must be ruthlessly junked. E-waste is another issue, you may need to budget for dealing with it! Good luck.

      1. EEK! The Manager*

        I’m with you on the swap part, lol. And yes, we are hoping that people might be able to take some of the things home. Personally, I’m all for ruthlessly junking things, but as a nonprofit, it’s hard to shake that “culture of scarcity” mindset that causes people to hang on to stuff way past its useful lifespan – just in case we might need it again someday. Which is why we have closets full of stuff! When I moved into my office less than a year ago, I threw out binders that hadn’t been cracked open in at least a decade. And it was painful for my boss to let them go.

        Good tip on the e-waste! Our IT dept handles that piece.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Can you find things you can donate?! Then it’s less “Ouch, it died and went to garbage heaven.”?

          For example, nobody had cleaned our supply closet out ever it turns out. So when I needed a task my boss mentioned it and I was all “yeaaaaaaas organization, gimme.”

          We had boxes full of supplies that we simply will never ever need that quantity of given we’ve transitioned to paperless awhile back. So we don’t need the 700 binders and their assorted assembly features. I boxed up 75% of it and contacted a local school to take it off our hands. Now they can use it for their school stuff.

          It only really works if it’s office supply stuff of course. Otherwise you can also donate a lot of trinket stuff to Goodwill as well of course, that’s what the other stuff went to. The garbage factor was really limited in the end.

    4. buttrue???*

      My kids’ elementary school did this at the end of the year a few times. They set up tables in one of the hallways. Teachers put out items they didn’t use no longer need, etc. While I don’t know what hey did with the items that didn’t get taken I would either arrange to donate unwanted items or through it all away.

    5. WellRed*

      What is the purpose of swapping? It still needs to be moved, right? We just downsized space with minimal moving. Ruthless tossing ensued, as well as much donating or giving away free on Facebook marketplace.

  195. Layoffs*

    How do you decide whether to stay or go? I’ve been at my current employer for 15 years. We’ve had many waves of layoffs in the past but this round feels different. More people and it feels more like an earthquake where there are aftershocks (making up dates and numbers but like 7/1 announcement of layoffs with 200 people affected. 7/7 no announcement, 100 people quietly let go. 7/10 no announcement, 50 people let go, etc)

    The severance package is good so I’m kinda inclined to stay but maybe it is better to leave while you are still employed?

    This is a large employer and we are going through a buyout. Again.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      I’d start looking for a job, but I wouldn’t leave until I had one. It’s always easier to find a job when you already have one, and you’re not tempted to take the first offer, no matter how bad it is, because you really need the money.

    2. Eva and Me*

      If you wait for the severance, will you be competing for new jobs with a lot of others with hour same title/skill set? Also, severance for those in the first waves of layoffs can be better than the severance for those who are there at the end. I am risk-averse and would prefer to job search now to get an idea of what’s out there with an eye to leaving sooner, even if I *might* leave severance money on the table.

    3. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Ah, they are making the little piggie looking good for the market. The cheeseslicer probably has stopped, so you are safe, but if and when the takeover happens, you will be in for another round of musical chairs… it might take some time, but at some point the organization changes will come. Not always though, I’ve been in some places that have ”grown organically” and while the upstairs branding and everything has been streamlined, each department or parts of old companies they bought still run ”cottage industry” IT departments and databases and all kinds of… ”interesting” ( as in omg wtf ) solutions.

  196. Shiny Swampert*

    I could not work for Jacob Rees-Mogg. He is enforcing double spaces after a full stop. *Shudder*

    2. LQ*

      Monster.

      I have someone working with me who does it and I flinch every time I hear that second space bar tap.

      1. OysterMan*

        I’m trying so hard to break myself of this!! It’s how I learned, and it’s so hard to unlearn muscle memory.

    4. Lena Clare*

      And omitting the Oxford comma… one of the only things from Oxford not to get a place in the cabinet.
      Also, he’s vile, so there’s that.

    6. Fish Microwaver*

      I don’t enforce the double space but I use it. Like the poster above, that’s how I learned and I think it makes text easier to read.

  197. BABS*

    Can you tell me the unwritten rules of LinkedIn? I’m a low level government administrative position that I’ve been in for years… I’m generally a private person, no one finds me on Facebook. I’m looking at going back to school and seeking a new career field and now LinkedIn has me curious. I know very little about it.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s kind of like Friendster, except you connect with people you have some sort of professional connection with instead of a social connection with. (Well, some people do LinkedIn social connections, too.)

      I haven’t found much useful about LinkedIn, honestly. I’ve had only a couple of recruiters reach out to me on it, and not for jobs that even close to panning out.

    2. OysterMan*

      I very rarely post anything to my “wall” and certainly nothing that is political or controversial in any way. It keep it very sanitary and post a few things here or there about what my company’s is up to (mainly just resharing things from the company’s official page).

      Other than that, I keep up updated with my career information and connect with people. There’s really no rules about connections. You’re more likely to have someone accept your connection if you know them somehow. But I get stranger recruiters linking with me all the time.

      I log on at max once a week. Less than that, really. It’s just a way for people in the professional world to find me if they want.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      So, I manage my team company LinkedIn page. Actually I love LinkedIn for this purpose, it can be a terrific professional networking site. Connect or post about professional topics, especially if you’re a subject matter experience. Join groups, comment.

      Just be aware, LinkedIn is NOT Facebook!
      That means clean, respectful and steer away from politics and too-controversial subjects. Your audience might be your employer or future employer.

  198. Lumen*

    So a few months ago, a supervisor left a neighboring team. This was due in part to working herself to the bone and being told it was not good enough. This is also why the last supervisor left our department a year ago. More recently, another supervisor left our team and moved to another department. Our department has been struggling with burnout and overwork for over a year.

    This is where the shenanigans begin. Because the company decided not to backfill Supervisor A, but ‘repurpose’ that role for another Analyst. Then someone from our team was promoted to the Supervisor B position, leaving his Analyst role open.

    So now we have 2 Analyst positions to fill. Keep in mind, we were all burnt out before we lost 2 more people.

    Now they are going to take 2 Admins from a neighboring team (the one that lost Supervisor A a while ago), promote them, and teach them how to do all the Analyst tasks. So now we have 2 Admin positions to fill.

    All the while, the bosses keep talking excitedly about how we are ‘finally’ getting more help in the form of these ‘two new people’. To the point that most of the department is forgetting that these are not new roles, they are existing gaps that we’ve been dealing with for months. And again: *we were burnt out before we had these gaps*. The company is not spending any new or extra money. In fact, since they took a Supervisor and turned it into an Admin role, they’re going to be *saving* money.

    But we’re all supposed to be so grateful that they finally let us hire new people.

    Even though that is not remotely what’s happening.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      I mean, I guess this is going to be great for the admins, especially if they had no desire to be career admins, but it is going to suck for whoever has to train them as analysts since you guys are already swamped. Then there’s the chance that one or both of the admins won’t be cut out for the analyst position, so you guys may end up having to hire for these roles again.

    2. TPS Cover Sheet*

      This reminds me of the old folk tale about the ”Village of Stupids” where they had a blanket that was too short. So the stupids decided to cut a foot off the top of the blanket and sew it to the bottom.

      Not only are you facing a non-winning equation with the numbers, it also means everyone now is needing to learn a new role, under pressure, and swamped with work.

      Don’t envy you one bit, but someone should print the folk tale and glue it on the boardroom door.

  199. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Just sharing because every place seems to have that one employee who makes you wonder how they manage to remember to breathe. Struggling with the newest guy in the mailroom. He keeps sending back to me all of the interdepartment mail I send out.

    I walked back down the latest envelope and spoke to him in person about it. When I asked him why it was sent back to me, his response was “Well, it has your name on it.” Yes. It does. In the ‘Sent By’ box.

    He continued to insist that all mail with my name on it, anywhere, has to go to me, while I kept pointing out that it should go to the name in the ‘Deliver To’ box. I pulled a couple examples from my mail pickup, showing my name in ‘Deliver To’ and someone else’s name in ‘Sent By’. He confirmed those were for me.

    Showed him, again, my outgoing envelope with ‘HR’ as the recipient, but he reverted back that it must go to me because ‘your name is on it, so we have to send it to you, that’s the rules.’

    I got a new envelope from him, filled out HR as the recipient in front of him, and handed it back. Then watched as he immediately put it into MY mailbox. I asked him why he didn’t put it in HR. ‘Well, you forgot to put your name on it, but I know it came from you, so it has to go back to you.’ I just can’t even.

    Spoke to the dude’s manager, she confirmed she talked to him about it, but he insisted both she and I were wrong – any mail with my name on it anywhere has to go to me, even if I’m the one sending it.

    Apparently, all my mail must now be sent anonymously if I want the recipient to get it. Also, for some reason, I have a headache…

    2. RandomU...*

      So many questions…

      Is it just you that gets all your incoming and outgoing mail?
      I’m sort of shocked to hear that there are still mail rooms in the wild (I guess this is not a question)
      What happens if you hand him an envelope where the Deliver To and Sent By are the same?
      Would it matter if he knew it was you that sent it?
      Why did the manager let it go after she talked to him? Did she just shrug her shoulders and say “Welp… I tried Narvo’s doomed”
      Does he like you and want an excuse to chat?

      Now I’m going to spend the rest of the afternoon trying to figure out a way for you to have fun with this.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        My dept. – Accounting – gets a fair amount of incoming mail. There were some important bills mishandled and thus paid late, not too long ago. Things with high visibility (CEO level), so there was a very stern talking to about making sure all the bills go to my dept. first. And the majority of those things land on my desk.

        It seems like this guy’s takeaway is just ‘see Narvo, send Narvo’. With no room for common sense or subtlety to sneak in.

        I mean maybe the dude wants to chat more with me? My wife & I did run into him at the waste transfer station over the weekend. I hope it was happenstance and not a purposeful plan. *twitch*

        As for the manager, yeah, she’s nearing retirement and it seems like she has zero f**** to give.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Aha, so THAT’s what happened.

          Mailroom dude is definitely the reason the bills got lost or misplaced. He got chewed out by the CEO, and now he is doing one of those “I am going to technically follow the rule in a way that doesn’t make sense and creates a ton of extra work for you. Oh I lost Narvo’s mail? Well everything with Narvo’s name on it, in any field, is going in Narvo’s mailbox. And if Narvo can’t send interoffice mail then Narvo can walk it there himself. muttermuttermutter.”

          1. valentine*

            Probably not worth it to point to the Sent by box on your mailpiece and ask why he didn’t put it in their box since it has their name on it.

            Put the recipient’s name in both Sent by/To boxes and seal the envelope. If he opens it to find your name and puts it in your box, see who can add throat-punching to the disciplinary process. In case he’s enjoying your attention, assign someone else to deal with him. If you’re a woman, send a man.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Does… he know how mail works? This is completely bizarre. I suggest asking some of your colleagues if they have similar issues with him. But really, he needs to be fired, because this is a basic operational issue of working with mail in the… mailroom.

    5. Utoh!*

      My only problem with this scenario is that dude’s manager has not fired his ass already. He told his boss she was WRONG about a process that a 5 year can understand…um, no.

    6. sacados*

      This is the most amazing thing I have ever heard!
      Seriously tho, dude needs to be fired asap.

    7. TPS Cover Sheet*

      This sounds something off candid camera. Like seriously my wtf-o-meter found its new Kafka standard. That guy has a career set out at the DMV for sure.

  200. grumbly one*

    Can I get a sanity check from other readers? I’m trying to figure out what’s going on — situation is that I have someone who is a step above me that’s basically a supervisor and has been missing a lot of work. Person took FMLA last year and came back early this year. Person has been calling in many times since then, leaving the rest of our team in the lurch, and just straight isn’t doing the work. We’ve complained many times to our manager, but it’s been almost 6 months with nothing actionable, and manager says it’s being worked on. Manager is now putting the onus on the team to basically stop complaining about her.

    Does it actually take that long to put someone on a PIP and figure out what to do with them through HR? It just feels like we’re being strung along that things are actually going to change.

    1. Not Me*

      It’s possible the missed time is related to the FMLA leave from last year and is intermittent leave at this point. If the missed time is due to FMLA her job is protected as long as she has FMLA certification. After that, the ADA may protect her.

      I’d guess there is more information than you have that your boss isn’t going to give you for ethical and legal reasons.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The length of time to put someone on a PIP or terminate them for poor performance/attendance issues varies in every single company, it depends on internal policy and also the management’s POV or tolerance threshold. If this is a public sector, they tend to have their hands tied extra tight when it comes to disciplinary action requirements.

      It could be that she’s still using FMLA but it could also be just simply due to the fact they’re “spooked” to push at her being so fresh off leave. A lot of places won’t touch a person, short of them burning the building down in front of their faces, if they’ve recently had protected leave because it has an “ick” factor and can generate lawsuits if they can make a case for retaliation.

      I think it’s gross that your management has boiled down to telling you all to deal with it and stop complaining. They should just continue to respond with letting you know that they’re taking care of it and aren’t at liberty to speak about other employees discipline with you.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think you might have more success if you refocus the discussion with your boss. Just focus on the workload and available resources (time, people) to complete it. Let your manager know what is/isn’t able to be done given these resources and a suggested prioritization. Do it in writing so that there’s a record of communication for you or your team clearly telling telling the manager what work will be prioritized and what won’t be.

      Leave the supervisor being gone out of the discussion completely, the reason there is too much work doesn’t really matter at the end of the day, what matters is how to proceed with the reality of the situation.

      1. grumbly one*

        We have a toxic manager (and workplace) — we’ve already had these discussions with our boss about workload, resources, and time, but they’re making us make due because of budget, etc. If there was an open position we could at least back-fill with a consultant temporarily.

        The problem with the supe is that she’s supposed to be sharing an equal percentage of the workload with the rest of the team, but given her near-constant calling out last-minute that work ends up falling onto us, and we constantly have deadlines to meet. So my question is more of whether or not our toxic boss is honestly pulling our legs — toxic boss and supe are friends so she’s gotten a lot of leeway previously when she shouldn’t have.

    4. WellRed*

      Geeze, this is on management, not your coworker, if there’s an issue with workload. You have no idea what’s going on but please don’t assume she’s got it easy or is slacking off. Maybe she has cancer and youre suggesting a PIP! Geezus! Have some compassion, just in case.

      1. grumbly one*

        I’d agree if it was a typical workplace, but this is a software implementation with tight timelines — we’ve already let other people go who couldn’t keep up with the pace or were impacting the teams negatively and other people have voluntarily left. We have trackable tasks and do actually know how much work she is/isn’t doing… Unfortunately her keeping her position has meant that we can’t back-fill with a consultant who could help the rest of the team from burning the heck out.

        The reason I was wondering is because the manager’s shared that she’s “working on this with HR” but that it’s been moooonths since we’ve brought up these issues.

    5. LGC*

      See, that’s the tough thing with FMLA and confidential information in general. (I’ll admit I’m not the greatest at it myself.) I think the problem isn’t so much the absences as it is being left in the lurch – so you might have to address it from that angle instead.

      Basically, instead of, “Tangerina calls out twice a week, can you do something about her?” you might want to try, “Tangerina calls out twice a week, how should we handle her absences?” It should be your manager’s job to figure out the coverage issue, which just isn’t happening right now. (And if you are doing the latter and your boss is still being useless, that’s a bigger problem.)

  201. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    Now that I’m officially almost unemployed (last day is next Thursday…SO ready to be done with the drama!), I’m job hunting like crazy. I’m planning to relocate, and I’m trying to figure out how the job market works now. When I’ve job searched before, it was simple – find a job, find someone I know who works there, chat with them about a referral, get interviewed, get the job.

    Now, people are talking to me about my LinkedIn self-promotion strategy, and how I’m going to show myself off to recruiters and industry leaders outside of just applying to jobs. One colleague suggested that I try to set up meetings with people in my field in my new city, to ask them for advice and input.

    I work in a somewhat creative, community-focused field. Is this a weird thing to do – to basically cold email someone and ask for a meeting? To me, it feels weird, and I suppose if the role was reversed, I’d consider meeting with someone, but I’d think it was a bit presumptuous. But maybe this is the piece I’ve been missing?

    Any thoughts on this idea, or generally how people are supposed to “stand out” in a new city?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Your plan seems solid, at least give it a try. If it doesn’t work, adjust.

    2. sacados*

      That could work, but I would make sure to refer back to Alison’s post about making sure to use “informational interviews” for their intended purpose, ie only if there is actual useful information/advice you think you can get from the person.
      If possible, it would also be better to reach out to people in New City who you ideally have people in common with. So one of your current contacts/references can reach out to New City Person and say “Hey, April Leslie is moving to New City soon and she’s awesome, do you know of any opportunities in our industry and by the way here’s her resume.”
      That’s similar to how I got my current job. I was relocating from Overseas City to my home country and had already set my last day with my old company. So my boss at the time — who knows pretty much everyone in the city I was heading to, put me in touch with a lot of contacts and passed my resume around to people, and that’s how I got my job now.

  202. Anna Nonymous*

    Does it make sense to leave a company where you’re in the leadership pipeline (to CEO of global company) because they are dysfunctional?

    Locally, managers are always going around HR, breaking hiring rules, there are gender issues, race issues, a small dose of fraud and a lot of nepotism. I’ve been told by global HR they are thrilled one of the highest performers in the company is a woman and they hope this will change the tone. Honestly, I’m so exhausted trying to “change the tone” and fighting in this male dominated industry, despite my “status” (whatever that’s even worth).

    I generally like my job, but for 10 years I’ve been fighting for change, while continuously having my hiring undermined, salary undermined and basically spending every minute proving women can work here too.

    This is a large global company and I’m afraid it will look odd to walk away from a succession plan to replace the CEO. I must admit too, this fancy sounding plan is one of the only things holding me. That, and autonomy/flexibility.

    What would you do, wise AAM readers? Any experience with company talent initiatives such as this?

    Thanks

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d leave. You’ve been there for 10 years? You can make a lateral move to another company and still have an upward trajectory into higher-up leadership roles (even CEO). Life isn’t always a straight line, and neither is career life.

      This sounds horrible: managers are always going around HR, breaking hiring rules, there are gender issues, race issues, a small dose of fraud and a lot of nepotism.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, all of that is bad, and I would not want to stick around on the off chance that I might someday get the CEO job.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have a lot of experience and marketable skills, don’t waste them with this kind of insanity! It’s not up to you to change a global company, that clearly doesn’t even want to be changed. You can go somewhere else and make real change and progress, screw these people!

    3. Shiny Swampert*

      Please leave. You sound utterly burned out.

      Even if you get to the CEO position and successfully change the culture it will be like turning round a tanker and so many people will hate you for it.

      Find somewhere else.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      HR hopes your success will change the tone? How, by magic? Those issues don’t sound like they can be fixed, they sound ingrained in the corporate culture. Kind of like how having a black US president didn’t end racism and a female president wouldn’t end sexism. I would say that’s the work of HR and Ethics to identify those issues and encourage reporting while protecting from retaliation, not the chief executive.

      I’m sure it would be daunting to give up a career path that leads to the very top but if you made it to CEO you would likely become sheltered from these issues and may have other business concerns that take your focus. It might not make sense to leave right away but definitely test the waters. You might find a position in a company that doesn’t require you to do your job AND shoulder the burden of changing the culture.

      1. Anna Nonymous*

        I think the comment from HR was more like rooting for me among all these men and sticking it to them because I got here through hard work and skills, not you know, nepotism.

        There are tons of reports to local HR about issues that are never followed up on and people don’t report to global. They are afraid of consequences. The last person who filed an anonymous complaint about being treated unfairly due to race was fired weeks later. That manager is still there. One example of many.

        As I type, I’m embarrassed I haven’t left, but my department is a bit sheltered from all the idiocy of the company locally. Your comment is spot on and I wouldn’t want to be CEO for any other reason than resume building.

        And now that I’ve admitted that (to myself) I will go update my resume. Thank you!

    5. Anna Nonymous*

      That is what my gut is telling me too. I feel I’ve stayed far too long, but you know how a dysfunctional workplace warps your sense of reality. I always worry I’ll never find another company that thinks I’m worth hiring at that level. Especially since all my experience is in this industry, who, as you might imagine, will never hire a manager who’s a woman. Is it 2019 yet?

      Thanks for the gut check!

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I know of a company that managed to change the culture. To do it, they ended up firing about 1/3 of the workforce, and more decided they didn’t like it and left. Total, about 50% turnover in 3 years. doable. Exhausting.

    7. Anon for this*

      It’s really unfair that it’s always on female execs to change the tone or culture, in addition to doing a damn hard job. No real advice, but I wish you all the best of luck.

  203. iwantout*

    How do you provide references if the only people who can speak to your work experience are at your current job and can’t know you’re searching? I graduated college 8 years ago and have had only one job since then. I’ve grown with the company and my position has seen some upward mobility and increased responsibility (and better pay/title), but the company is small, with one location, and my boss has been my boss since day one (we are an HR department of 2 people). I am not in contact with any of my college professors, nor would they be able to speak toward my abilities, as I graduated from a very large university where I was just a number on a roster. Because my current company is so small, I can’t ask any other coworkers/peers to speak on my behalf or word would definitely get back to my boss, who would be very upset (I speak from experience and she is one of the primary reasons I am looking). So how do I job search without professional references?

    1. mozz log*

      I know this is a pretty common piece of advice for this situation, but how about former coworkers who have left the office? Can you reach out to them? Although, I understand if you’re afraid that they’ll inform your current employer.

      If you’ve done any sort of work for others or if you’ve ever volunteered, you can try to use them as a reference instead. I was in the same boat and it gave me so much anxiety during the job search. However, the company I ended up working for didn’t ask for references.

    3. SilverBunny*

      I was in the same boat as you when looking for my second job, I graduated with my BS and right afterwards got my first job position. After almost 4 years of working there, I started job searching for better pay. Obviously, you can’t use your current manager as a reference, and college professors aren’t really good references for jobs outside of academia. So I used people who I worked with before, but then left the company for a new position as my references. Since you have been at your current position for 8 years, I’m sure they’re at least a few people who have left that you could use? That is one of the beauties of LinkedIn, it lets you stay in touch with your network without having to worry about losing track of past co-workers/managers.

    4. iwantout*

      Honestly, this is small company and very few people leave, except out on the shop floor, where the labor is hard and my contact with that location is minimal. None of the individuals working in the shop would be able to speak to my work ethic or abilities. Almost no one has left the office positions in the years that I have been here. Most of my coworkers have been here as long as I have or longer and plan to retire here. The only people who have left that could speak to my abilities (just from working in proximity to me) have not left voluntarily and, since I am HR, I was the one processing their terminations, so I doubt they would serve as strong references. I wish I had more time to volunteer, but unfortunately I don’t have that as an option either. I’m so concerned that I have literally no professional references. Only family friends who have never seen my work and would only work as character references.

  204. Autistic Farm Girl*

    I feel like i’ve already missed the chance to get any answer but who knows: a guy in my team does a running commentary of his day, and it’s driving me and other colleagues up the wall. It’s not necessarily to us, but it’s not whispered, it’s normal voice, he’ll say what he’s typing in emails, or what he clicks on, or what website he logs in… ALL THE TIME!!! It’s horrible and no one can focus because of it.
    I’ve asked him to cut it out, multiple times, but it changes nothing. When someone points it to him he goes “oh sorry”, stops for like 10mins and then goes again. What can i do short of throwing him out the window?!
    (I do manage him, but nothing in his performance target says “don’t do a live comment of your work day” so i can’t deal with it on a performance thing)

    1. RandomU...*

      Yes you can! If he’s being disruptive to the team then you can make it a performance thing. I would start with coaching…

      “Bob, I’ve noticed that you have to be reminded about your running verbal dialog of your activities. This is something I need you to work on… specifically; X, Y, and Z. Not only is it a disruption to the team, it is something that will hold you back in your professional life. I understand it’s likely a subconscious thing that you are not aware of. But you are going to need to find a way to stop it. I will of course help where I can, but this is going to have to be a major effort on your part. “

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes. You’re his manager — it’s not true that you can only manage him on his formal performance targets. If he was pooping in the hallway or creeping on the interns, you could address that too and he probably doesn’t have formal goals on those things.

        1. Close Bracket*

          “Show me in the employee handbook where it says I can’t poop in the hallway!”

      2. restingbutchface*

        Totally this. There are loads of things that aren’t technically in your contract that you can’t do in your office. Like, clipping your toenails at your desk isn’t forbidden in the employee handbook but I imagine you would put a stop to it shortly if anyone got their nasty toes out and starting clipclipclipping.

        I like RandomU’s script, especially the emphasis that this is going to be a problem in his whole career if he doesn’t sort it. I would be murderous by now. If he doesn’t know he is doing it, maybe agree a signal that he knows means SHUT UP BOB. I grind my teeth when I’m stressed (super hot) and my second in command used to call out, “being weird again RBF” so I became aware and would stop. It did help me because I genuinely didn’t realise I was doing it.

        1. Anono-me*

          I hate to say this. And by that I mean I really hate that I am able to say this. Your supposition that toenail clipping would not be permitted in the office even if it wasn’t specifically mentioned in the handbook….yeah that is incorrect.

          1. restingbutchface*

            I can guarantee it wouldn’t be allowed in any office I manage – Steve, if you’re reading this, I hope you stopped clipping your nails for good and not just when I was your manager.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Can you not address it in the basis that it is disruptive?
      I appreciate that his performance target may not expressly say “don’t disrupt your coworkers” but I would have thought that it is something you can legitimately include.
      Unless your place of work has very odd rules about management I would have thought that making clear to someone they manage that their behaviour is disruptive / antisocial and needs to change falls well within your scope, so I would suggest speaking to him, setting out clearly and explicitly what he is doing and that it needs to change, and then following up .

    3. LGC*

      …I love this question SO MUCH because it’s something I deal with a lot myself.

      So, yeah, you can definitely talk to him unless your workplace is that rigid (in which case, 1) I hate your employer and 2) do what you need to do to get it formalized). He might not be aware that he’s doing it so often, so you should (discreetly) let him know that it’s an issue. This is totally NOT worthy of a PIP or warning, but just because it’s not a formal disciplinary issue doesn’t mean it can’t be addressed.

      When I’ve had to address people being inconsiderate in the office, I’ve said something like, “Hey, this is a shared space, so you need to be considerate of others.” That’s partly my style – I tend to phrase things in more immediate terms – but it’s been fairly effective for me. I’ll also downplay my personal annoyance if that’s a factor, because that’s not the point.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      Can you not address it as failing to follow direct instructions?

      Bob, stop narrating your day out loud.

      Bob fails to stop.

      Bob has failed to comply with a direct instruction from his manager, that impacts the productivity of the entire team.

  205. restingbutchface*

    Argh, I’m late and this will get lost but if I don’t say it I’m going to scream.

    Yes, I am a woman. However I am not your admin assistant, mother, PA or therapist. Today alone I’ve had to push back on –

    – taking minutes in a meeting “*I was leading**
    – picking up lunch for the (all male) team even though I was on deadline and they were lolling about scratching themselves
    – rewriting my male coworkers PowerPoint slides to “make them look pretty”
    – organising my (junior) co-worker’s diary because he was too busy

    For the last time. I am a director. I am the second most senior person in this room. I am very good at my job and you are ON THE THINNEST OF THIN ICE.

    *screams into gin*

    Highlight of my week though was reading through a report where someone had made the most amazing typo of all time. Instead of talking about location service mapping and the importance of location based access… they spelt location as *lactation*.

    So you heard it here first. Lactation access is very important. Well, I don’t disagree.

    1. Shiny Swampert*

      Oh wow.
      Sack them all!! Except for whoever made the typo, they get one last chance. Lactation access is very important, yes :D

      1. restingbutchface*

        I LOVED the lactation access, so much so that I wanted to keep the typo in the report for a real long minute.

    2. A Non E. Mouse*

      Thank you for posting.

      It helps to know other women are out there fighting the good fight.

      I mean, sucks that we have to, but at least we are when presented with it.

      1. restingbutchface*

        Have to keep on keeping on, friend. My comfort and hope is that it’ll be easier for the next round of awesome women. Sending you good thoughts and courage for the new week’s fight :)

  206. DietCokeHead*

    Sigh…salary expectations. I’ve been at my job for five years and have never received more than the annual 3ish% raise. There’s also no room for promotion. According to my research, I’m being underpaid by about 20%. I’ve been applying elsewhere and gave gotten two phone interviews. In both cases, I’ve been asked my salary expectations and I’ve given my starting range as what I’ve found in my research. So a 20% increase over my current pay. Both times the recruiter has responded that it is definitely doable. My worry is that I’m still undercutting myself. Why is this so hard?

    1. NikNak*

      It’s really sad and frustrating that there is basically no salary transparency in the workplace. It lets the employers hold all the cards while the worker has no negotiating power…you’re just shooting in the dark. After being at a previous job for about three years I found out my coworker, with the same skill level and job duties, was making $8 more per hour than I was. I have no idea how she pulled it off, but man was I shocked! Now I’ve been doing this long enough that I know people in my industry all over the country, so I can get an average.

      For my last interview I threw a number out I never thought I would get, and they nearly met my request. Even at that it was significantly more than what I was paid before. Give them a high number and let them come back with a counter offer. It’s much harder to ask for more if you’ve already undercut yourself.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      There was a big article and discussion on LinkedIn this week about how Job Hoppers make more money.
      It’s true, I’ve done so! That is probably also the reason why employers actively try to punished said Job Hoppers by saying they aren’t loyal.

      I say: Why BE loyal? This is why we have a free market capitalism. We are free to sell out labor to the highest bidder. Seems capitalism is only convenient when employers want it to be.

  207. Your Average Admin*

    I wanted to get your thoughts on whether or not you think it’s beneficial to place employees in social situations where they feel uncomfortable. I work in a central administrative office at a large public university. Earlier this week we had an office “Thank you” lunch for our work over the last year. The newish office manager asked everyone to stand and sincerely thank two people. While we didn’t have to go one by one, you were not allowed to leave the room until you had sincerely thanked two people and had been sincerely thanked two people. She demonstrated with a sincere thank you was.

    She acknowledged that this exercise would make people uncomfortable, but that it was good to be uncomfortable because it was the only way we could grow as individuals. I fled at the first opportunity but get the sense that I’m in the minority of people in my office who found the exercise to be too much. What say you?

    1. Shiny Swampert*

      What?! That’s awful. That’s basically just a “who has the most friends” contest because most people are just going to thank the people they like the best, for better or worse.

      The only way you could grow as individuals? My eyes just rolled all the way out of my head.

    2. OhGee*

      That’s extremely weird and I don’t think it’s going to help you grow as individuals. Ugh.

    4. irene adler*

      And this helps you do your job better, how?
      Someone who likes placing others in uncomfortable circumstances is not a nice person. Don’t give me the “it’s for personal growth” excuse. Work isn’t the venue for providing personal growth (although many people experience this via their job responsibilities).
      She is nuts.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      While it may be true that sources of personal growth are often uncomfortable, it does not necessarily follow that everything uncomfortable is therefore a source of personal growth.

      Correlation. Causation. Not the same.

    6. Close Bracket*

      My feelings about this depend on what you were supposed to thank them for. There is new research into expressing gratitude at work. If you were supposed to thank them for something work related that they did for you, I’m in favor based on research. So like, “Lucinda, thank for getting that TPS report to me on time.” Yep. Big fan, even though it makes people uncomfortable. OTOH, “Lucinda, thank you for being a friend.” Uh, nope.

      Everything that makes you uncomfortable doesn’t make you grow, as Daughter of Ada and Grace points out, but everything that makes you uncomfortable is also not something that needs to change. You should look into the research.

    7. Jane*

      That’s the dumbest freaking thing I ever heard.

      For one thing, forced != sincere.

      For another thing, who is the office manager such that she thinks it is her job to make people “grow as individuals”? Gross.

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      If someone’s forced to say “thank you” to me, I take that thank-you as essentially meaningless, no matter how “sincerely” they have to act when giving it.

    9. WellRed*

      What if nobody thanked you. Would you still be there, in all your thankless shame? I bet this is just the start…

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is absurd.

      She’s treating you like grade school children. It’s not her place to do this kind of nonsense. I wonder if she came from an elementary school setting at some point [I’m not joking, I really do wonder, it’s very much a mark of early-education to think of this stuff.]

      Also how much authority does she really have? You can’t leave? LOL WUT? Unless you’re the actual person in charge of me [in my case the CEO or owner], get out of my way.

    11. cmcinnyc*

      This is horrifying and hilarious (yes, my sense of humor can get me in trouble). You may or may not be in the minority who found it “too much.” People fake it. People lie. This is too much.

    12. CM*

      To answer the broader question, no, I don’t agree with the philosophy that forcing people to do something that makes them feel awkward or uncomfortable will fill them with warm feelings of community and bonding. I think that respecting people’s boundaries, accepting them, and letting them interact in a way that feels comfortable for them is a much better approach.

      The comment that you’re supposed to grow as individuals sounds weird to me (and kind of condescending), and I wish you’d asked her HOW it was supposed to help you grow as individuals, because I’d be curious to know the answer. (I also kind of wish you’d just walked out to see what she did, but it might be better you didn’t).

      Either way, though, even when people are in therapy challenging themselves to do things that make them uncomfortable in order to grow, it’s something they do at their own pace, because they want to and see a benefit in doing it. The therapist isn’t like, “You’re not allowed to leave my office until you have personal growth!”

      This is whack.

    13. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I’d take my little red book with to the next lunch and wave it in the air while telling the boss to make a self-critique.

  208. But Make It Data*

    Very late to the open thread and this is my first time posting in it. But this week has been a doosy for me.

    I’m resigning from my position at the end of next month. Everyone at the office already knows and I helped in finding my replacement. We have one picked out who is slotted to begin before my last day so that I can work on onboarding. This was done purposefully so that the transition would be as smooth as possible. This week, my supervisor gave notice. Then me and a few other coworkers got pulled into a meeting where we learned that main focus of this position is changing from Desirable and Competitive focus to Standard for this Field focused – and I’ll be doing a lot of the work in making these changes.

    This greatly impacts the work that my successor will be doing, and my successor was hired for skills in Desirable and Competitive focus and not at all for Standard for this Field focus. Putting aside the extra work I’ll be taking care of in the weeks I had been hoping to use as time to focus on my future, should my employer inform my successor that 1. the direct supervisor will not be there to help and 2. the role is drastically changing? I feel like he should be given a chance to cut and run before taking over this… Mess.

    2. Utoh!*

      Yikes, sounds like a bait and switch (intentional or not). The person who accepted the position as presented has a right to know that it’s changed and how much so they can make an informed decision. Hopefully someone reaches out to them and makes them aware.

      1. But Make It Data*

        That’s kind of what I was thinking. I included this topic in a list of other questions about the shift that I sent to upper management today… Hopefully letting my successor know will become a task for them. The most frustrating part is that we interviewed someone else who was interested in Standard for the Field focus, but they apparently weren’t the top choice.

  209. Human Form of the 100 Emoji*

    I’m a bit late but I finally got a job with benefits (!!!) After searching for a full year! It pays SO MUCH for an entry level position in my field and I can’t believe I got it.

  210. Audra*

    What to do about a late bonus? I’ve been told my team will receive a bonus in July (I was told this at the end of last year, again in the middle of May, and then discussed it with another team member this month), but it’s the end of July and nothing’s been deposited. I don’t even know what the bonus amount is going to be or if it’s coming at all, now.

  211. Eukomos*

    This was such a shitty week. The other person on my team got a great opportunity and has to leave us two weeks earlier than he’d planned (he’s a summer temp), and my boss had yet another meltdown. She treats us horribly and so there’s constant, rapid turnover, and every time someone leaves she freaks out. At this point no one competent will work for her because her reputation’s so bad, except for me because I’m stuck here until at least December, and she doesn’t want to hire incompetents, so she puts off handling it until we have a crisis like this and takes whoever she can in a panic and the cycle starts all over again. And since I’m basically the last person left and she is at this point incapable of doing anything herself she dumps the problems on me.

    I fixed it, because that’s what I do, and the next day she comes in all calm and happy and thanking me for my help, but I’m so mad at her and I can’t let it go this time. I’m sick of putting up with this, I’m sick of watching her treat other people even worse, I’m sick of losing track of my own work because I’m so busy doing her job and the jobs of all the people who quit and calming her down and doing the pointless busywork she assigns. She just got a new boss whose job involves much closer work with us than her old one and I want him to fix this. He knows how bad she is, everyone knows, and everyone who quits files an HR complaint when they go. He needs to find his balls and fire her. She should have been forcibly retired a decade ago. But no one gets fired or even pushed out around here.

    I have to put my head down and deal for at least another four or five months and I just don’t know how I’m going to do it right now. I cannot run this whole program myself and nanny her and do my other work (this is only half my job! literally I only do it 20 hrs a week! I have another half, elsewhere, which is also challenging!). How do I walk back in on Monday and keep this shit and myself together for another five months? I’m so frustrated and tired.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        I think you get to drop the ball now that there’s a new boss in town. I would focus on your own stuff and retire from managing this mess of human. It’s just until the end of the year.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          I agree; HOWEVER, before you start letting your manager’s balls drop, and only if you have a good relationship with your grandboss, I’d make an appointment to see him to let him know what you are about to do, and why, and what you expect to have happen (1st-order effects, 2nd-order effects, on the workflow or programs, etc. or you can couch it in terms of how your boss’s reactions will escalate and how you plan to politely refuse to do the work as she gets increasingly agitated that you’re not responding the way you used to). This way, you will ensure he has your back when you start letting balls drop and she tries to retaliate against you. Good luck. Please let us know what you did and how things worked out.

  212. Nela*

    Hey All, Happy Friday! Anyone have any fresh ideas for multi-day team meeting activities? We do have some set topics we need to cover during our time together but we’ll have plenty of time for team building type of activities or individual or hands on presentations, etc. I need some new tricks to keep everyone involved and interested!

    1. Asta*

      We did an exercise at an away day where we worked out our values as a team – which aren’t the same as the overall organisational ones. Basically we each told a story about something we had enjoyed or were proud of, and other people listening picked out particular values we mentioned. We ended up with a really great list that reflects what matters to our team.

  213. Let me eat cake*

    My boss told me “he wanted a project done by x date. I busted tail and worked extra to get the project done in an (unreasonably) ambitious timeframe. When asked why I had been working so much by my boss, I replied that I was working on the project he had assigned and he had “wanted done by x date” (quoting from his original instructions.). He replied that I had misunderstood and that he only “WANTED it done by that date and that he didn’t NEED it done by that date.” Am I missing something here? I took the Plain English meaning of “I want you to do x by x date.” I didn’t perceive any subtext that this was a negotiable directive from my boss. So frustrated to have overworked myself on this.

    1. LGC*

      Ouch, that sucks! I’ve had similar stuff happen to me, although not to that degree. (There was one time when my boss asked me and my co-supervisor to do something and we both ran over to her desk because it seemed so immediate – my boss tends to use caps for emphasis, and she has a habit of using the High Importance flag for a lot of things. She was really confused until we both explained why we thought it was immediate, and then she was a bit sheepish.)

      Actually, I think that’s similar to what your boss did – or rather, he forgot that since he’s your boss his word carries authority. I don’t know if I’d assume it was optional if my boss told me that she wants something done by X date unless she explicitly said it was – and even then, I would try to get it done by the earlier deadline anyway. I was going to dunk on him, but…I’m wondering, how did he sound? Did he sound like he was annoyed at you for working overtime to get this task done, or did he sound like he was annoyed at himself for causing you to worry? (I’ll speak for myself, I do have a tendency to sound annoyed at others when really I feel like I messed up, so I’ve taken to saying, “it’s not you, I just feel bad about making this mistake.”)

    2. CM*

      I don’t blame you for being confused, because there are a lot of unhealthy workplaces out there where someone would get mad at you for pushing back in a reasonable way. That said, in a healthy workplace, it’s normal to be able to have a conversation about deadlines. If your boss tells you they want or need something by a certain date and that seems unreasonable or even just risky because it’s a tight timeline, it’s normal and good to tell them that that’s probably not going to work. One way to say it is, “I’m not sure I can have it for DATE, but I could probably do it for MORE REASONABLE DATE” or “I can try, but that’s a super tight timeline for this. How much of an emergency is it if we miss the deadline?”

      What you’re trying to do at that point is initiate a two-way conversation about when the thing can get done. So, if your boss were to come back and say, “No, no, I needed it for DATE,” you would explain why it’s not possible to do it for DATE (because you have a bunch of other stuff that’s also due soon, or because the work customarily takes a lot longer that the timeframe being allowed, etc) and then, depending what the reasons are, the two of you might discover another solution (like cancelling or delaying some of the other work, or cutting back on what you’re expected to deliver so that you can produce it faster). Under really extenuating circumstances, you might occasionally agree to work overtime to finish by DATE — but only after having the rest of the discussion.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t think you’re missing anything. In my mind, my boss telling me she wants something done by X date means she actually expects and needs me to have it done by that date–it’s not a suggestion. Your boss needs to work on his communication skills.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Your boss needs to communicate better!
      Perhaps they really meant they wanted a DRAFT version by X Date, but not a final? That is very normal, but it needs to be communicated properly.

  214. Perpal*

    Baby showers at work!
    I’ve worked a few places, had a few babies. Never was a personal fan of the idea of traditional baby showers.
    But!
    As a trainee at one place, the director and the program coordinator would organize one shower once a year for everyone who was expecting (men or women); it’d be during normal hours and there would be cake. And a big basket of baby goodies for each person.
    IDK, as someone who received it, it was super nice. It just made the place feel very friendly towards all things that can happen in life. I’ve always been really self conscious on whether being a mom would be perceived as compromising work/career and at that place, it always felt like it worked out well and wasn’t a burden to anyone.
    Protip; if you’re expecting and moving around all the onerous duties off the break (like, overnight call), try to move it all to BEFORE you give birth haha (yes I did that, and yes maybe I was working for a month straight and on call every other night, but the fatigue mostly wears off third trimester and I was glad for the light load later!)

  215. Coalea*

    I’m currently in the interview process for a new job and have been thinking about potential references in the hopes that things progress to that stage!
    I have several peers who can be relied on to give positive and enthusiastic feedback, but when it comes to my managers, things are a bit tricky. My current manager doesn’t know that I’m looking elsewhere, so he’s out. I think that my previous manager would have lots of good things to say, but he’s currently doing this dual function where he still works for our mutual company … but has also been brought on board as a contractor for the company that is my main client. In essence, he’s now my client, which means I don’t think I should be letting him know that I’m looking elsewhere either!
    I was wondering, however, if it would be possible to ask a former client to provide a reference. We worked closely together for over a year and I’m confident that if asked she would have good things to say about me. I’m just not sure if it’s appropriate to list a former client as a reference – should I stick to colleagues?

  216. Hope*

    What would you say or ask during a coffee meeting with a recruiter?

    We have spoken already as she did the first round Skype interview for a job I applied for in another city. I didn’t get the job, but made it to the final round, and as our interview had gone well, we are meeting for coffee next week at her suggestion.

    I’m looking forward to it but not sure what exactly to cover and how to prepare. Ideas?

  217. Defunkt*

    How do you deal with being in a funk at work? For me, a funk is when I just don’t feel like doing anything, just sluggish and unmotivated, hard to get up after sitting, hard to start moving after stopping, etc. Today it happened to me at work, but it can and has happened elsewhere. I checked my trigger list (hunger, dehydration, lack of sleep, pain, dreading an upcoming task, and so on) and couldn’t really find anything causing it. I was trying to self-talk my way through it (it will pass soon, just keep going, it’s okay to have an off day, it’s okay to go slow if you’re making progress, pause for a second if you have to, stuff like that), but it lasted for HOURS. I have depression and anxiety and this is one of the ways it manifests, and one of the most frustrating. It’s so hard to get anything done when I’m in this state, and even if I manage to do something, there’s no feeling of accomplishment. Does anyone else have this? How do you get through it? Do you have any tricks for shortening it?

    1. CM*

      The phrase I use is “Let today be a bad day.” I just try to accept that it sucks and there’s nothing I can do about it and not be hard on myself when it happens. It feels really frustrating and scary, and my tendency is to start stressing out about what my future’s going to be like if I just get stopped from doing anything every so often, but honestly the thing that’s helped the most over time is just to accept that it’s a thing that happens to me, and I’m straight-up not going to be able to accomplish things as fast as I would like to.

      As for what to do, if I’m at work, my go-to strategies are to use that time to read or watch videos related to my field, or (if I happen to have some stuff lined up) try to knock out a couple of small tasks that don’t require sustained energy or concentration, or use that time to figure out what this pile of paper on my desk is.

      If I’m being completely honest with you, the reality is that there are some days where I just kind of hang around the office feeling gross without really doing anything. I think the trick is not to hate yourself for that.

  218. The Other Dawn*

    Does anyone know if it’s possible to study MIS (management information systems) without getting a four-year degree?

    I’ve been given the green light at work to get some education outside my current job, though the things I’m interested in would help me in this capacity. I’m looking at technical writing ans MIS. I found a course for technical writing, which I plan to do early next year (I have to wait since I haven’t been there all that long yet); however, I’m coming up empty for MIS. I’m finding only bachelor’s degree programs and I really don’t want to do that. I’d rather find either a two-year degree or a certification course, something like that. I have an associate’s, so I could transfer some credits, but I still don’t really want to do a bachelor’s, though maybe I’ll change my mind by later next year.

    1. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Well, the thing with MIS is that it is like automotive engineering, and what you want would be a machine shop. If you look into the curricula of those bachelor degrees, you would probably find some modules that would make sense, or a shorter degree course on one of the aspects.

      Also, there are specific parts that have their own certifications, something like ITIL foundation or PRINCE 2 usually make recruiters socks twirl when they see them on a CV. Also if you are looking for more practical stuff, if your company is using one of those big ERP packages, their vendors have pretty extensive courses available. And probably would go through approvals without much blinking. They usually range from the pointy-hair boss level to the mad professor and the geek squad, so taking the theoretical ones usually will help to understand the basics if you then decide to take a full MIS degree after all.

  219. Bibliovore*

    A thank you to Elspeth Mcgillicuddy for her amazing google-foo. We are planning our California retreat and visiting Sacramento then on to Calistoga.

    Mr. Bibliovore was right. My week-end on-line friends know everything!

  220. Jocelyn*

    Hey everybody,

    Can we talk about ageism? I could use some strategies to help my re-entry into the workforce. I’m 45 with 20 years experience in my field and the last few years I’ve been doing contract work from home. I’d love a full-time position in my field.

    When working with teams over the last few years, either through my contract work or some volunteer work I’ve noticed that at times folks treat me like I’m invisible, or worse: annoying. This morning I showed up for an event (a volunteer commitment) and was blatantly micromanaged for simple tasks. When an artist showed up for their pass, I checked the sign-out list and had it grabbed from my hand. I kept myself busy cleaning up the area was eventually told to go home halfway through my shift. Last week I was in a meeting with some team members and when a question was addressed to me another (younger) colleague over-talked my response. When this happens my safest response is to blend into the wallpaper and avoid annoying anybody but that isn’t maintainable.

    Will welcome suggestions of strategies from this community. Thanks!

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Ugh, I hear you so much. I’m your age and this nonsense is for real.

      I’ve practiced using my “diaphragm” voice so that my voice is louder and carries a little bit more than, perhaps, you and I were socialized to speak when we were kids in the 1970s and ’80s. In your issue there where someone grabbed the list from you, I like to think I would have said, in the moment, “Whoa! Grabby! I’m handling this!”

      For someone micromanaging me over a simple task, I’d try, “Thanks! I’ve got it! Clearly no rocket science. I’ll take it from here on my own!”

      When someone talks over me, I like to say, “Excuse me! I was speaking,” or for your situation, “Hey! They were asking me, I’m happy to answer this one.”

      Bottom line for me has been to raise my voice (not in a mean or aggressive way, but in an assertive way), stand/sit up straight, claim my space, and radiate my confidence that I know what I’m doing. You’ve got this!

      1. Jocelyn*

        Here are my best strategies for:

        Micromanaging: The best advice I ever received was “DO THEY KNOW WHO YOU ARE?” When I am in DYKWIAM mode watch out. I am prolly wearing a blazer.

        Overtalking: When a colleague was chronically cutting others off, another person _cut them off_ with a firm “I want to hear what they have to say!”

        1. Jocelyn*

          Ha. Also willing to get lightly hit by a Lexus so I can have some financial wiggle room.

    3. cmcinnyc*

      I am ten years older than you and this is not happening to me. However, I DNGAF about fitting in, being liked, or whether or not anyone finds me annoying. Truly. If you are interested in doing work, as in WORK, do that work and F the social aspect of things. The fact is, I have a lot of experience and I’m good at stuff, and eventually, the young ones figure that out and I honestly get along really well with a lot of them. But not at first. There’s a sort of hazing period, and it’s best to be very assertive during that and not worry about things like going out to lunch or to drinks.

      1. Jocelyn does not give a fork*

        I DNGAF and when I start a new role a great practice is to observe and learn about the dynamics in the workplace. “Hazing” is a great term for it. A professor in university told me that for the first week of classes she comes on fierce because it’s the only way to get respect fast. Don’t hate the game, hate the rules. Thank you for your advice!

    4. The New Wanderer*

      So, I haven’t experienced ageism at work because almost everyone I work with is my age (45 in 10 days) or older. I’m still “young” at my workplace. However, I’m a woman in a very male dominated environment and the effects are similar. I’ve started consciously approaching things like cmcinnyc does: I know my stuff and when I need to speak up, I do it. I feel it like a compulsion, because the consequence of not speaking up is never being listened to, and when I’m the person with something to say I want to be listened to. It gets easier with practice.

      With the volunteer stuff, maybe that’s a good time to practice speaking up – low risk of fallout and good source of confidence building. Remind people that you ARE there, that you are just fine with your responsibilities, and that if you’re speaking, others should wait their turn. Jerks will still grab stuff out of your hands or interrupt or talk over you, or treat you like you don’t know stuff but they’d probably do that to anyone they thought wouldn’t push back. You can’t win *them* but you can remind everyone else that you have something to offer by shutting the jerks down.

      1. Jocelyn does not give a fork*

        Hey TNW – thank you for your comment. It’s really helpful, especially your advice to practice and “the consequence of not speaking up is never being listened to”. Lord, that’s me.

    5. WellRed*

      I don’t see this as ageism, I see it as you are not viewed as part of the team, because you are contract or WFH or whatever. I am 49. FwIW and never been treated tjis way (but definitely felt invisible in other realms).

  221. Violet*

    Does anyone know why the workplace has become a place where people complain about their diets/exercise regimes/looking fat so frequently and openly? I don’t know if my workplace is just weird but it’s so frustrating to hear coworkers do this all the time – and some of them are in my department. I’m tired of being held hostage in a way to their complaining (as I’m entry level and on contract) as one of the few actually fat people in the organization. On top of that, I’m dealing with mental health issues and have had problems with my weight since childhood and now it’s worsened due to two medical conditions. It’s just frustrating to have to deal with people like this all the time and I can’t listen to music the entire time I’m there so I’m at a loss when the complaining starts. Does anyone have any tips for dealing with this?

    1. ..Kat..*

      I recommend “sorry, can’t talk, I have to finish task X.”

      Also, check out the Dances with Fat blog. She has lots of good advice on how to deal with this kind of stuff and what to say.

      I am sorry you have to deal with this. Good luck.

  222. valentine*

    My (large) team does A and B, which are the same type of work. My manager assigned me to focus on B unless needed for A, and said leading on B would be good for my review. (No numbers or anything concrete, and I don’t think anyone told the team.) After a couple of weeks, my manager went on leave. A few days later, TPTB announced the team would do A unless randomly part of a mini team with a B-focus day. They didn’t say that applied to me until I asked and, if I sucked or if I was a test pilot, they’re not going to (voluntarily) tell me, which bites. I don’t know if my manager was part of that decision. I’m thinking my only recourse is to ask to do the opposite: to work on B unless needed for A. Both are too varied, but B has a measure of freedom and I see an opportunity for a future narrowed focus. Would you ask or see how the current scheme goes?

    1. Darren*

      Seems tricky. Personally I’d probably ask for clarification, but what it sounds like is that they are trying to split the task sets and have the majority of people working on A essentially full time, and having just you (and maybe one or two others that got special instructions) working on B essentially full time.

      They should really have specified that to you in that first message from your manager or had your manager give you your “You will be working on B predominately” chat after the general announcement so it was clear what you’d be doing and why.

      1. valentine*

        The issue is I’m back on A with everyone else, but there will be random days when I am part of the (potentially ever-changing) mini B team.

        1. TPS Cover Sheet*

          Just remember when your manager comes back, that you make clear working on A wasn’t ”your choice”.

          The old sealawyer in me always wants ”orders in writing”, as I get very annoyed if I get conflicting orders and then people yelling at me following them.

  223. Spool of Lies*

    This is incredibly late but I have a question about giving notice.

    I’m waiting on the written offer for a position that doesn’t start until September and I need to figure out when/how much notice to give at my current position. I’ve been there for a total of 15 months but started on a 1-year contract (mat leave).

    I was offered a higher paying position in an adjacent department after 5 months (my previous role was eliminated) so I’ve been in my new role for less than a year. I had a new employment contract with a new 90-day probationary period for the new role and my duties/responsibility level have changed significantly.

    Labour laws in my area are such that employees need to give 1 week notice if employed less than 1 year and 2 weeks notice if employed for more than 1 year.

    I’d really like to give one week of notice (once I get the written offer) so I can enjoy a month off work.

    How much notice am I required to give?

      1. Spool of Lies*

        Um, I hate my current position and I don’t need two weeks to wrap up my work because I typically do less than 1 hour of work per day.

        I was thinking more in terms of the labour regulation requirements — if my employer terminated me without cause, I assume they would pay 1 week in lieu of wages rather than 2 based on the employment contract I signed for the permanent position.

        1. WellRed*

          I was just thinking if you were concerned about running afoul of regs then just cover yourself by giving two weeks and see what happens.

  224. 3Edyjer*

    Hello!
    Does anyone have any tips about going into a job interview for a promotion with your current manager?
    I have worked well and closely with this person in the past (and we have a warm friendly relationship) but they’re quite particular and very sure of themselves. I’m worried about saying something about my work that they don’t agree with! Particularly with the “describe a time when…” interview questions.

    1. Spool of Lies*

      Do you have any reason to believe your manager will dispute your view of how you’ve handled situations? I’d say be confident in your responses and honest about your role in the situations you describe. If you have a warm and friendly relationship, I doubt this is going to be an adversarial interview.

      Good luck!

  225. ilikeptookay*

    Is it okay to ask for a Friday off my second week of the job?
    Tomorrow I plan on accepting a new position, starting September 3. I had already planned to have 13 off. When I officially accept, is it okay to ask for this day off a long with some time in March? I don’t *have* to have September 13 off but I would *really* like to.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I think so! I would explain that you have an upcoming event and ask. The worst they can say is no!

  226. Lost-soul*

    I was terminated from my job Friday. I’m beyond depressed. After 26 years, I’m so upset. Company refused doctor prescribed reasonable accommodations. Time for lawyer.

    1. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Don’t get depressed, get angry, and not too angry, get even.

      And then they say you should be loyal to your employer? Ha!

  227. Purrsnikitty*

    Last week I was eating in the lunch break room, alone, when two colleagues came in to start their daily(?) smartphone multiplayer session. Aside from the fact they can be rather loud about it, so far so good. Then, one of them, usually showing childish behavior, proceeds to fart loudly, laugh, comment on it proudly (“wow, this one didn’t even touch the edges!”) and a bit later, seeing how I wasn’t reacting (I was! I was finishing up quickly so I could get the F out of there!), asked quizzically if “I could tell”. Wuh? “Can you tell what I ate for lunch?” he asked with a laugh.
    HA… what a lark. So, where do I go to puke?

  228. Part Time Poet*

    I realize I’m late to the work extravagance party. My story is a testimonial from a friend of mine who had a boyfriend at the time that worked for a well-known software company. Every year they book a huge resort at a beach-type location for ALL the employees to attend with spouses and significant others included. All expenses paid; flights, food and entertainment. I do believe the spouses and SO’s have to pay their own flights, but that’s all. It is lavish and I believe hundreds and hundreds attend. It costs millions every year. I’ve always wondered if the company has set up a foundation and gives back to the communities in their various locations.

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