open thread – October 4-5, 2019

by Alison Green on October 4, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Eric S.*

    How do you talk to your manager, HR, and your colleagues about a family crisis (multiple sick and possibly dying relatives), and handling it long term?

    This week, both my father and my uncle went to the hospital. My father had a stroke and may recover to some extent, but my uncle doesn’t have much longer. When I found out I spoke to my manager, his manager, and HR about it, and they are all extremely supportive (I’m pretty close with my boss, which would be awkward in many cases, but we’re both the only people who can do our respective jobs for this company in the USA). I’m doing everything “by the book,” and I’ve been told to take whatever time I need. I also have worked here for about a year and a half, so I qualify for FMLA.

    But, i don’t want to be out of work so long — I need to do something other than sit with them in the hospital for own mental health. Since my father had a stroke, he’s going to be in the hospital, then in a rehabilitation center, for weeks or months, if he’s ever okay enough to live outside of one. I can also do my job remotely and my company is pretty flexible with WFH (brought my work laptop just in case). But, I also don’t want to make people at work think I don’t care about my family, or that I’m a workaholic.

    How should I phrase this to management and HR?

    1. IL JimP*

      Have you talked with HR about intermittent FMLA? That way you can go out when you need to and work when you don’t

      1. Eric S.*

        Intermittent FMLA is actually something I didn’t know about.

        It looks like he won’t be going home for a while, if ever (this is his fourth stroke; he’s paralyzed on the right side of his body and cannot speak). So it’s more likely that I wouldn’t need FMLA for a while, and what’d be more useful is them being flexible with remote work (I can’t spend all day in a hospital; I’m aware that’s somewhat selfish but they are incredibly depressing places). We don’t have a written policy for it, but OTOH I’m very good at what I do (basically, very senior software engineer and data scientist), difficult to replace, and get on wonderfully with everyone. It would ease my nerves a little if it got a green light from my boss & HR.

        Is there any specific way to present that, or just say it like that? Their job is totally different from mine and I want to make things as easy as possible for everyone.

        1. Joy*

          Just wanted to say that it’s not selfish to know your own limits when it comes to your mental health. I’m sending you and your family a million positive vibes.

          1. Joielle*

            Seconding this. It’s not selfish at all – you have to keep it together for you AND your dad right now, and your mental health is a major priority. Being a caregiver is draining. There are plenty of doctors and nurses in the hospital to provide all the care your dad needs for the times when you can’t be there.

            My husband has a chronic illness that occasionally results in him spending days in the hospital, and I also can’t just sit there. It ramps up my own anxiety considerably, which doesn’t work when I’m responsible for both of us, his medications, our house, pets, etc while he’s incapacitated. I take at least 2-3 hours each day to go home, take a long shower, walk the dog, have coffee with a friend, read, and yeah, do some work. I think people understand that work helps take your mind off things and will follow your lead.

            1. MsChanandlerBong*

              I’m sure your husband appreciates it, too. When I am in the hospital, my husband goes to work, comes by in the evening to have dinner and watch TV with me for a few hours, and then goes home to sleep. It’s great that he would rather be spending the time with me, but him working and making sure we have health insurance does me a lot more good than him taking unpaid time off work and possibly putting his job in jeopardy to sit at my bedside all day. Sure, I’d love to have him there, but I’d rather know that I have health insurance and won’t end up with a $100,000 bill.

        2. nonymous*

          Usually what I see is people using intermittent FMLA during maternity leave, so the parent will be out of work completely for 2 – 4 weeks and then come back part time after that until baby care is settled or they run out of leave.

          In your situation specifically, I might ask for an “alternative work schedule” with scheduled check-ins every couple weeks to revise. So for now it may make sense for you to work remotely 7 – 12 & 5 – 8 local time, which would let you go eat lunch with Dad, check in with his medical team & whatever other arrangements which need to happen during office hours. Depending on the schedule of his facility it might be easier to catch Drs/therapists at a certain time of day.

          My tip to you about hospitals/rehab centers == depressing is to have a plan going in. With my own Dad my three goals for every visit was to 1. something routine/bonding, like eat a take out meal at the bedside or knit while watching the news 2. something to provide mental stimulus, like a crossword puzzle or reading the newspaper – so that Dad could mull on something after I left and 3. check in with his care team, including making them feel appreciated or reducing their workload some.

          1. Shiny Onix*

            Nonymous wow I’ve never seen anything like this plan for hospital visits before and I wish I’d had it up my sleeve in the past. Thank you for sharing.

          2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

            For care homes especially, it’s best practice to schedule your visits at random, so the staff can’t “guess” when you’re coming. That way if there’s an issue with their level care, or one shift of employees is not up to par, they won’t be able to hide it from you ahead of your visits.

            Which works great if you’re using flextime for work. Tuesday morning works well one week but there’s a really important meeting Tuesday morning next week so you come Tuesday night instead.

          3. Mama Bear*

            Agreed. We had someone who was out often to care for their mother who was battling cancer. Two things came from that – we got a temp to help out with coverage for that job, and the person was able to take leave as needed/when needed to support their family. I strongly suspect it was intermittent FMLA. Tell them what you need and discuss options with your boss. It doesn’t have to be 12 weeks, and it doesn’t have to be all at once.

          4. school of hard knowcs*

            Wow thanks so much for that, I am responsible for my Mom who has dementia and I get stuck with what to do with her and how to handle her.

        3. blackcatlady*

          I’m so sorry about your father. I bet he is frustrated at his situation too! At the risk of sounding uncaring, I don’t think you need to sit bedside 8 hours a day. Your dad may be drifting in and out of naps. Since he can’t speak, it’s one sided conversations from you. Could you go in for an hour in the morning and read the newspaper to him? Then come back in the afternoon and give him highlights of your day? He will know you love him and care but it could be a strain on both of you for continuous bedside visiting. Best wishes!

        4. Senor Montoya*

          Intermittent FMLA is great. I used it for a number of years to take care of my child. In fact, even when my child was relatively well and did not need me taking time of work to care for him, I re-upped it every year because if he had a downturn, it was in place. There’s a bit of a time lag while you gather paperwork and it gets processed (and that’s happening while you are stressed and anxious and needing time to care for that person), so best to get it set up ahead of time.

          Intermittent can be set up as X hours per week on such and so schedule, or it can be flexible. Depends on what the employer allows. Sounds like your boss and HR are helpful!

          You might also see if your employer has a donated leave bank. If you use up your leave, then you may be able to draw on leave donated by others. This was also helpful to me, as continuing to have leave = I got paid and, more important, since I wasn’t on leave without pay, I continued to get benefits (= health insurance, retirement contribs, etc). The 4 months I used all that up and was on LWP was killer. (Cost us over $30K in lost pay, lost benefits, additional expenses such as paying premium to be on my spouse’s insurance.)

          And…yes, being able to go to work when it was intermittent FMLA was a godsend. You don’t stop worrying, but it moves away from the front of your mind. It kept me occupied and it was a place where I could be competent and in control, you know? Because I sure didn’t have much control over what was happening with my kid.

        5. mrs__peel*

          Intermittent FMLA and remote work sounds extremely reasonable and like a good idea. There’s a limited amount that you can do if someone is in the hospital or rehab facility, and they may get tired out with too many visitors staying too long.

          You may have gone through this before, but (from my family experience), if there IS a chance he’ll be discharged home, you may want to save a fair bit of FMLA time/ PTO days to help him settle in. There’s a whole lot to do then (e.g., going through discharge instructions at the facility, physically getting the person into the car and out again, setting up home safety equipment, arranging for home help if needed, etc.)

          Talking with a medical social worker can also be extremely helpful if you’re feeling at sea and need more information about resources.

      2. Lime Lehmer*

        I used intermittent FMLA caring for my father. Once the leave is approved, you can use it in a rolling manner throughout a year. My office bought me a laptop and I was revising budgets at Dad’s bedside while he slept – this was my choice and my Dad was glad I was working, it made him feel less like a drag on my time. I also used FMLA to deal with Dr. Apts, and the inevitable emergencies like falls or infections.

        You have to think of your family situation as a marathon and not a sprint. I used this language with my boss and co-workers when discussing caring for an aging family member. It seems to ameliorate the concerns as to why I might be at work rather than the bedside.

    2. SleepySally*

      I would just be honest and say that you appreciate any help or flexibility they’re able to give you, and that working actually gives you something positive to focus on to help you cope. Hang in there, and I hope your father has a smooth recovery!

    3. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Can you flex hours at all? That’s what I’m doing next week- there’s a political rally blocks from work and I want to avoid both harassment and traffic so I am leaving early while working more earlier in the week.

    4. Troutwaxer*

      “I need to do something other than sit with them in the hospital for own mental health.”

      How you handle this, both emotionally and with regard to things like hospital visits, is up to you. I’m the long-term partner of someone with major health issues, and I know that I handle things differently than other long-term partners – and that’s fine. For example, I won’t stay in a surgery waiting room. I go out, do some errands, have breakfast, then return fifteen minutes before surgery is over so the nurse can call me.

      You have to find what works for you.

      In work terms, maybe you can take on something long-term which will allow you to take time off when you need to, but also contribute. So you can give up the Llama-Grooming reports which are due once a week and take over the Yak-Grooming reports which are due once a month – or however that would work in your case.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        Also, see about talking with a therapist or counselor for yourself. You’re going through a lot! I found that meeting with a counselor was so very helpful. You can talk about stuff with someone who’s outside the situation, you can say things you feel you can’t say to your family or friends, it’s time that’s focused on *you*.

    5. Venus*

      I have known a number of people in similar situations, who explained that work provided them with some stability in their lives and a predictable way to engage their brain, so they wanted to continue to work because it gave them mental health benefits (while having flexibility to take leave as needed). It’s a reasonable request! Medical problems often involve long medical appointments, or waiting times, where the sick person wants company but isn’t well enough to engage with you for a long period of time, in which case having a laptop and doing some work might be ideal.

      1. Eric S.*

        I guess my ideal (weird word to use here) arrangement for the time being would be to mostly continue working, but remotely except for our important meetings and interviews. Or maybe even work half days in the office. This is so I could visit my father and uncle for a couple hours a day and help my grandmother out with her errands (she’s 87 and relied on my father for a lot of help).

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          That seems like a completely reasonable arrangement, and back when I was a manager I would totally have allowed it for somebody in a situation like yours. But do talk to your HR and see if it makes sense to start using your FMLA time now. You don’t actually have to take your 12 week FMLA leave all at once, you can use it intermittently for a few hours a week if you need to.

        2. Observer*

          That sounds like a very sensible set up. It gives you the ability to keep working, doing something useful / productive, and be there for your family at the same time.

          I hope things go as well as possible.

        3. Senor Montoya*

          That sounds very reasonable. I’d say also talk with your manager about revisiting your plan after a couple of months, in case you find it is not working as you hoped and/or because your dad’s situation has changed.

    6. Not All*

      When my grandpa was dying of cancer, I quite opening told everyone in the office that I was losing my mind sitting just trying to read a book or stare at the wall for 12 – 16 hrs a day in his hospital room. He was asleep most of the time so we weren’t chatting. I wasn’t very efficient, so my boss and I agreed I’d charge 3/4 of my hours to work. Everyone understood and I could IM with work friends.

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’ve been in similar situations. With coworkers I usually frame it as the family taking turns to keep our relative company, and I mention that when it’s not my turn, I’m really glad to have work to do that keeps me from dwelling on my worry. If you’re planning on doing remote work from the hospital or the rehab center, just sort of drop in conversation that the relative you’re spending time with naps a good deal or spends part of the day in physical therapy or having tests done, so even when you’re with them there’s bound to be some down time and it’s nice to have work to do to keep yourself occupied. And if you’re not able to have those conversations with your coworkers on your own, I’m sure your boss will keep them updated to whatever extent you’d like him to.

      Also, hugs from a random internet stranger if you want them. This is a tough situation and I’m sorry you have to deal with it.

    8. Dust Bunny*

      My mother went through a series of serious surgeries and rehabilitations (a long time ago; she’s fine now) and I went to work as usual as much as possible. The routine and distraction were stabilizing, and of course she was in good hands in the hospital or with nursing care. I did get asked a few times if I was taking enough time off but everyone backed off when I assured them I appreciated the concern but I was taking what I needed and liked having something else to think about.

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think most people understand the need to do what you can when you can do it. I had a direct report whose mother was undergoing cancer treatment and it had always been just the two of them, so it was pretty rough. I told her to take her laptop with her to chemo if she wanted to, work on what she could, just keep me posted. Every time I had a task to assign to her I checked in and I gave her longer than usual timelines. I think most people would be surprised if someone in your position DIDN’T want to work from a coffee shop or even come in every once in a while. Caregiving is strenuous.

      So my advice is, really, just keep your manager in the loop. If you want to come in, just say so, and if anyone questions you (which they likely won’t), you just needed a break. Another co-worker’s mother passed away recently and she needed to come to the office because it was the only place where she could get away from the arrangements and her kids and husband without interruption. That’s not callous or cold, that’s self-care.

    10. Koala dreams*

      You can ask for a flexible schedule or ask for a couple of hours off every week. That way you’ll have time to go to the hospital or go to appointments (rehabilitation, visiting caretaking facilities, preparations for a funeral eventually), but you’ll still have work every week to keep you grounded. There is no set time you need to take off for family emergencies, it depends on the circumstances, so don’t worry about that. (At least, it isn’t in my culture.)

    11. Christina*

      Another vote for FMLA here. And just because you apply and are approved does not mean that you have to use it.

    12. qtippy*

      What a tough situation. I would also vote intermediate FMLA.

      Just this year my father was diagnosed with cancer and intermediate FMLA was a lifesaver. It allows you to take whatever chunks of time you need. Work on good days, leave on bad days.

      I was able to leave to talk to doctors, take him to appointments, whatever we needed.

    13. Sharrbe*

      A lot of people have had this experience and would understand. You can’t sit by a hospital bed all day without anything to distract you. It’s more emotionally and physicallt exhausting than working a full day if you ask me. People who’ve never experienced that and may judge you for working? They’ve been fortunate enough to not have to spend days, weeks, months in such a situation. However, I highly doubt you will encounter that. If you are really worrried, there are enough openings in your daily communications with people to slip in a “I’ll be available to take X work. It will keep me busy while dad’s asleep, in rehab, etc.”

    14. Heat's Kitchen*

      I’d just be honest with your team. Unless you are planning on taking intermittent FMLA, I don’t know that HR needs to be involved.

      Here’s an example. My manager at my last company had a daughter go through a very serious health scare. She had to be in the hospital for months. She usually worked at the hospital in between doctor visits and procedures. She was online most of the time during the day and sometimes in the evenings. No one had a problem with it.

      If you have an understanding culture and can work remotely, I’d just ask for the ability to be flexible, and work when you can remotely. Just make sure you take time off if you need it to digest the information. Sorry for all you’re going through.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        I’d sign up for the intermittent FMLA even if you think you are just going to flex your work, because you don’t know what may happen and it’s really useful to have it in place in case you unexpectedly need it.

        1. Heat's Kitchen*

          I would second this. But ideally, you don’t have to use it all the time. Thanks for the clarification!

    15. YouGottaThrowtheWholeJobAway*

      My grandfather and my uncle died within six weeks of each other and both funerals required getting on planes and leaving the region. I was younger and inexperienced at the time and it was the peak of the recession, but I will never forget how cold and unhelpful the HR team were at the place I was working (nor will I ever forget their names, Arya Stark style). There were only 3 bereavement days a year total, even if you had taken nothing in the previous 3 years of working there, and had never asked for more time off before. I was lucky I had a few vacation days left but I regret not pushing back more. It sounds like your HR team are the opposite and have some compassion so I would absolutely encourage you to ask about intermittent FMLA and working remotely when possible. No decent person at work is going to think less of you for taking this time. My husband took his laptop to the hospital and nursing facility when his mother was in her final months and worked when she took nap breaks or had tests etc. This is not uncommon and any workplace that gives you anything but support over it is probably not a good one.

      1. Eric S.*

        I’m so sorry for you.

        I’ve been through that before. My father was hospitalized for a series of strokes a few years back. Combination of me being younger and not knowing how to handle my emotions, lack of knowledge about the options available to me, and a boss who was trying really hard to get me out and knew how to abuse the system (I’m pretty certain I could’ve gotten a better deal; either more severance, guaranteed transfer out, something else if I’d documented properly; as I was the only person of my ethnicity in the department) meant I was in a pretty bad way.

        I’m older, wiser, and honestly better at my job now. I’m on track for a promotion, never gotten anything less than a stellar review, and everyone loves me. We’ve been trying to find another person to do my same job because the workload just is too much for one guy and they’re aware of that. Honestly, it helps that I work for a European country; IME Italians, Brits, etc. have a much saner approach to work/life balance. Here, it’s not “I don’t want to see you get up from your desk until everything is done,” but rather “sucks that we’ve gotta put in some more hours to hit this deadline, but let’s go out for a burger then get back to work. Also don’t worry about working from home tomorrow.”

        Because this job is wonderful, I’m also really invested in keeping it and not burning any of the goodwill I have from everyone here. I’ve been in contact with my boss and letting him know the situation every couple hours. I plan to tell him I’m going to come back to the office Monday and I want to chat with him and HR about FMLA so we know everything’s golden.

    16. Tupac Coachella*

      I’m reading through these comments carefully, because I have a family member trying to survive cancer right now, and it’s been tough at work. So far, I’ve told my boss so I can relax and know that if I’m needed to help out, Boss will work with me. I haven’t raised the possibility of what I’ll need if he passes, because frankly I’m not ready to accept that possibility yet, but his condition is such that the minute I say what he has, people know it’s on the table. (My boss is also a medical professional, which helps some.) Otherwise I’ve been fairly quiet about it, and selective about who I tell because, like you said, I need to think about other things. We’re in a place where we’re just waiting to see what happens next, and I just don’t want to be asked about it all the time.

      I can offer this advice: be open to changes in your own needs. Even if you know how you normally handle stress or loss, every situation has its own constellation of factors, and you might find that your needs are different now than in the past. When I lost a family member a few years ago, I tried to power through the next day (because what am I going to do sitting at the house, cry? Um, yes.). I’m forever grateful to the boss who said “no, go home” while I was still functional because she knew me well enough to see that I wasn’t ok. While you’re able to be in work mindset, set up some contingency options in case you need more time to take care of yourself than you expect.

    17. miss my Dad*

      As my dad was dying, I asked my bosses if I could go home to spend his last weeks with him, but also if I could work as I needed to–to get my mind off all that’s involved in watching someone lose their fight with cancer. I was non-exempt at the time, and didn’t expect support, but they were willing to let me use my daily, routine tasks–just a few hours every day, for a month–to get my mind off the waiting and his suffering and my mom’s grief, as long as I logged the hours I spent working. I really needed a mind break, and yes, *every day,* especially since the timeline was not definitive, and that’s how I phrased my request.

    18. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I telecommuted from the hospital after my elderly mother had her stroke. I don’t recommend it. I was badly distracted, made mistakes, and had significant stress-induced gaps in my memory that made it hard for me to find those mistakes.
      I was in a similar boat — I just didn’t know how to occupy myself for the waking hours when I wasn’t at home and wasn’t at work. I still don’t know what I should have done, but trying to work wasn’t it.

      1. Eric S.*

        I get you. I think it’s different for everyone.

        Last time I went through this (he had a series of strokes in 2015), I completely shut myself off from the outside world, and I think that was worse. I spent about three months either at the hospital, running errands, or playing video games, and that definitely messed with me. I was more anxious and paranoid than I ever have been during that time and the couple months following. I also had a much less supportive workplace back then, though.

    19. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Is your only concern that people will think you don’t care about your family? No one will think this. Just make arrangements to work remotely when needed. Having employees deal with family emergencies, illnesses, etc. is a normal part of the work world, and your boss, head boss, HR all know this. They will not judge you for wanting to be with your father, and will likely appreciate that you are still doing work for your company when you are able.

      1. Eric S.*

        > Is your only concern that people will think you don’t care about your family?

        It’s a big concern, but not the only one. I’ve gotten a lot of “just take whatever time you need, we want the best for you and know how valuable you are” remarks over the last few days.

    20. Shoes On My Cat*

      Most people totally get that doing one’s job, even if limiting hours, gives a person a mental break from worry, fear & grief, as well as a productive outlet for energy. If you just say something like that to your boss/HR/coworkers you care to talk with, most will get it and respect your choice to care for your family and still work for your own mental health. Best wishes!!

    21. Bopper*

      What is your goal?
      My Dad had brain cancer (from lung cancer) and I helped out by coming up on weekends and being with him and helping with him so my stepmom got a break. If he was in the hospital, I would just sit with him quietly and help as needed.

      So who else can help out? Are you the only one?
      WHat support do your father and uncle need? Just companionship? or can you do things like take care of their houses?

      My daughter was in the hospital with a kidney infection…i brought my laptop and just sat and worked. If she wanted to talk or needed help I would help her.

      So figure out 1) How much hospital time you can deal with 2) What they need 3) How much time you can spend helping without getting overwhelmed 4) Do you need to be the one to do things (like mow their lawns) or can you outsource it?

    22. ErgoBun*

      Honestly, don’t worry about special phrasing. You are a valued, performing employee at an organization that sounds like it cares about its employees. Just ask for what you need, and let HR and your boss decide how they can give that to you. You don’t have to figure this out on your own. “What would work best for me is to be able to work remotely at some times to cover responsibilities A, B, and C, and take FMLA leave at other times. How can we make that work?” — That’s all you need to say to start it off.

    23. CallofDewey*

      No advice, but my grandfather went through the same thing and it was so hard. I completely get the just wanting to work through it bit. Best wishes!

    24. Carrotstick21*

      Hi – I’m an HR professional. Your request is very common and it sounds like they are doing the right thing by working with you to be compassionate and see what your capacity is or is not. Working from home on a temporary basis makes sense – start with HR and see if it is feasible. FMLA leave can also be taken intermittently as needed, so that’s an option as well.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. Best wishes to you and your family.

    25. Libretta*

      I agree with other comments about intermittent leave – it was very helpful for me in caring for my mom. We have a whole Leave Team who helped me through the paper work, but if your company doesn’t have that, maybe suggest it as an option?

      For talking to my team – at our regular meeting I just said that I was going on intermittent leave, and that Big Boss told me to take the time that I need. That I was going to take her at her word on that and so I would be here when I can, available off-site when I can, but that I needed to take time for my family and so I may be slow to respond sometimes. I told them that I would put my ‘away’ message on my email if I was definitely not going to respond.

      I felt like putting it that way put my family first, and that I was coming in to work because there was work to be done. It let me work when I was able, and I felt comfortable just walking out the door when there was a crisis call. With using my away message, it let people know without me having to announce it that things were serious.

      As far as I could tell everyone was fine with it – if they weren’t it never got back to me.

      Sending positive thoughts your way – this is a very tough time.

    26. TootsNYC*

      You said you’re worried that people will think you don’t care about your family.

      But I think most people will understand the idea that you might need an escape to normalcy. And that you don’t want to blow vacation days or time off early on.

      Just say those things–don’t hide them. They’re perfectly ordinary and respectable.

    27. DrRat*

      So, from the you didn’t ask, but I’ll tell you anyway…sounds like from the rest of the comments, you have sorted out your options for work. So just some things to think about for the remainder of this mess:
      If your uncle has very little time left, I would strongly encourage you to think about hospice. They have a team of people (social workers, counselors, etc.) who can continue to provide support to your aunt not only while he is still alive but for a year after his death. At age 87, sounds like she will need it. As for your father, it can be really awkward spending hospital time with someone who can’t speak. But medications make many people too fuzzy to read. If he has any particular interests, he might like it if you read to him at times. For instance, if he likes sports, bring in the sports news and update him. My late hubby was soothed by the sound of my voice and just liked having me bring in books to read to him. Also, don’t forget about music if he likes music.
      Also, if your father is going to be in long term, whether in the hospital or a skilled nursing facility, you can do things that will insure the staff will go the extra mile for him. Hospital workers are frequently overworked and have to put up with a lot of verbal – and sometimes physical – abuse. Say Please and Thank You. If your father needs an extra blanket, walk up to the nurse’s station and say he needs a blanket and ask where the closet is so you can get it, instead of asking them. If he needs ice in his pitcher, ask where the ice machine is instead of asking an aide for it. You will get a good reputation and so will your father. Bring in a cheap box of candy or an inexpensive bouquet of flowers with a thank you card and drop it off at the nurse’s station. I’ve done things like this in the past and literally sat there with a family member while the staff chased everyone else out when visiting hours were over – but would say to me, “Oh, not you, hon, stay as long as you want!” Know the system, work the system!

    28. NoLongerYoung*

      Sending you a hug. Spent 9 mo+ of last year, working 3/4 time and caring for husband with terminal cancer. I had a pretty spectacular boss (and some great credibility and good-will at work). The boss took on the externally vital management of the head council of llama-opinion experts, and I continued the behind the scenes llama planning. Another person was brought in for my TSP reports. It was also understood that when I just couldn’t, any more, I’d let them know. But some days, work was my mental health. I understand, and so will they. No matter how rough work was, or stressful, my home life kept it in perspective. On the other hand, it was great to have “something” that actually went well when I put my hand to it. I hope you have a great boss, too.
      I send you comforting vibes from this corner of the internet.

    29. Database Developer Dude*

      Holy hell, Eric S. So sorry for your troubles, and your impending loss. I can barely imagine what you must be going through. I was 17 when my paternal grandmother and a maternal uncle died in the same week. I was out of school, of course. I hope you have the support you need.

  2. MOAS*

    General question for y’all here…what differentiates between a manager who is good but has flaws/quirks, versus a manager who is bad at their job?

    There’s no background or anything to this question, just wondering what the general idea is.

    1. finally october*

      How hard do they make my life?

      I’ve had a manager who was bad at being a manager, he’d promise me support and not give it, etc etc, but overall, he wasn’t terrible. He got his job done. He was probably like 5 management classes away from being a good manager. He could have improved if he’d recognized there was a problem and did the work to fix it.

      Contrast to my ex-manager. Who caused me so much stress, I now take daily pills to deal with the medical consequences of it. Turns out a bad enough boss can really make his mark. And there’s no management training that could have fixed that guy.

      1. a good mouse*

        Ugh this is the situation I’m in right now. It’s been making me physically sick from stress on and off for the past year.

        1. Bzr57*

          I had a manager who made me feel so sick and anxious at work every day. I didn’t get a full night’s sleep for 4 months, lost my appetite, had no emotional interest in anything. I stuck it out until I found another job and still gave a 2 weeks notice. But leaving there was the best thing for my life. Don’t stay too long in a job that is hurting you, even if it pays well. There is so much more to life.

    2. CatCat*

      I have noticed that managers who are NOT rigid rule followers are superior to ones who are. My current and last manager both treated their employees like human beings. No one is perfect so they had their flaws, but they would always put humans first.

    3. voyager1*

      I think it depends on the quirks and what their job is in regarding subordinates. There are a lot of managers who are great at getting deliverables to upper management but for example could not to save their life manage their subordinates when their is a problem between two individuals.

      I think a lot of people go into management thinking they are a rockstar employee so of course they will be awesome at managing. However in reality, what made them say a good engineer isn’t the same skills that will make them good at managing a group of engineers. Bad managers never figure this out whereas good ones realize they have to change and learn new skills.

      Without more specifics of what you are dealing with that is probably about all I can say

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Is the manager’s only job to be a manager? Or does she do other stuff, too? It is possible for someone to be good at being a manager (for example, balancing too much free rein / micromanaging) but bad at other aspects of her job (balancing a budget).

    5. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      IMO, it’s about the impact, and there’s no hard-and-fast rule but there are some guiding questions. Are the flaws/quirks mildly annoying, or a real hindrance? How well is the team able to perform in spite of the flaws/quirks? Is progress being made and are goals being met? If so, how is the team holding up? Is the progress happening because of generally good leadership and direction or because the team is overextending themselves trying to make things work?

      This line of questions brought to you by reflection on Kalros, the Mother of All Thresher Maws’s Year of Three Bosses.

        1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

          Oh, you’re welcome! I enjoy making people laugh even more than I enjoy ruining a Mako driver’s day.

    6. Kora*

      Are they clear in their own mind about their expectations, and do they communicate them? Do they meet with their reports on the regular? Do they give both positive and negative feedback when it’s warranted? For me those are the baseline things for good management, and someone who neglects them is bad at the job. If they’re good at all of them they’re probably a decent manager regardless of other flaws, unless it’s somthing really serious like being a chronic yeller or extreme micromanagement.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is where I fall too. Quirks and flaws to me mean they prefer text to email, prefer certain terminology or formats over others, or other minor things that an employee can easily adapt to without causing stress or irritation.

        My worst manager wasn’t bad by any real metric, at least on a daily basis. He was pleasant, seemed to be on top of things, and probably met or exceeded expectations when reviewed by his own manager. But he had no interest in me, my skills, my career progression, and the monthly 1:1 meetings he was supposed to have with everyone happened once in six months. (Others had the same experience) He put me at risk of a layoff (which then happened) by downgrading my relevance to the group without warning. My performance eval was just as good as ever, but my overall rating became “disposable” and there was not only no conversation about it beforehand, there were no opportunities to discuss it afterwards. He basically hid from me after that, and then wasn’t even the one to have the layoff conversation.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          My worst manager wasn’t bad by any real metric, at least on a daily basis. He was pleasant, seemed to be on top of things, and probably met or exceeded expectations when reviewed by his own manager. But he had no interest in me, my skills,

          This was my last manager. She was great with the rest of our team because they were her friends, but with me? Nope – she pretty much had me sitting around twiddling my thumbs all day with very little to do. It made me wonder why she even hired me in the first place. Needless to say, I began a soft job search six months into the job (it was a very leisure job search – I may have sent out one application a month) and launched a full scale job search in January of this year. I had a job offer four months later and was gone by May.

    7. LKW*

      I suppose it depends on the areas of conflict or incompetence. You can have a manager who is on top of every detail but is vindictive, takes credit for the good, points the finger for the bad, and pushes a team beyond capacity for limited benefit to the company or client. So while the results may be great from a project perspective, the other result may be poor morale and a high turnover which adds time and stress to a team.

      I would say a good manager with faults acknowledges said faults and asks for help to minimize the impact of those faults (reminders, alerts, check points, whatever). A manager may not understand the impact of decisions or issues but if they reach out to their team to clarify – they can get the information needed and keep the team involved in the process. A manager may not be able to get through all of their email but they can clarify what is a priority and ask team members to reach out via text, IM, phone or in person to address issues that need attention and then be responsive and open when team members reach out.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I agree with you on the importance of acknowledging faults. My old boss would probably rate himself a 9 on communication, but all of my colleagues and I would rate him a 3 at best. He doesn’t notice his flaws, so he can’t work on improving them.

    8. Kiwiii*

      I’ve had a couple really good managers (currently and 2 jobs ago), one who was good but not great (last job) and one who was terrible (3 jobs ago) — the really good managers found ways to troubleshoot and help me get better at things, let me know when i’d done something really well, and actively helped me gain skills that would be useful in current and future roles. Last Job’s manager was kind and liked me and always tried to get me more interesting work, but wasn’t great at time management, was rarely available, and sometimes overly bothered by small mistakes/changes/misunderstandings — while I would have stayed with her longer, I didn’t feel as though I was being managed well. 3 Jobs ago manager was Bad — he changed the rules several times without telling me for what I was supposed to be doing, was let other managers be overly critical of me (she accused me repeatedly of being impolite for not saying “please” before requests, though I always did it kindly and to save time and said thank you afterwards), he would say inappropriate and bullying things, and would dangle advancement or higher level duties in front of me and then change his mind or harp on how I wasn’t good/fast enough at the tasks I was meant to be trained in (despite learning half of them quicker and more independently than anyone had guessed I would and despite not being trained properly on the other half).

      The difference is that while the flaws/quirks may not make having the manager particularly enjoyable — a bad manager is more actively detrimental.

    9. CM*

      Do you trust their decision-making process, and do most of the decisions seem to makes sense? Would the people reporting to them describe their relationship as positive or neutral rather than negative? Are they hitting the targets they set out to hit — or, if not, are they able to problem-solve to change that?

      If the answer to all of those questions was yes, I wouldn’t be super concerned. If the answer to one of them was no, I’d want to look closer.

    10. Colette*

      I’d say good managers:
      – treat every member of the team fairly and respectfully
      – hold everyone to high but reasonable standards (which may not be the same for everyone)
      – shelter the team from any external chaos as much as possible
      – set clear goals (and don’t change them unless there is a good reason to do so)
      – trust the judgement of their team (unless there is a reason why they can’t) especially when it comes to things like how much work something is
      – understand that people make mistakes, and support their employees when they make a mistake
      – encourage their employees to take time off and detach from work
      – cross-train people so that no one can hoard information/no one is irreplacable

      1. Zephy*

        Shielding the team from external chaos is a big one, and you really don’t appreciate that until you have a manager who’s bad at it. I had one who was really bad at it. I’m still not sure what his goal was – was he trying to vent his frustration with his superiors by passing those feelings on to his direct reports (which is like, ten kinds of inappropriate)? Was he aiming for “transparency” and landing on “petty” instead? I don’t doubt that his direct supervisor being an unfathomable a-hole had a lot to do with it – honestly, said grandboss was the actual problem, but that doesn’t change the fact that after the manager that hired me left and was replaced with Transparency Stan, the team had 100% turnover (including management) within 2 years.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Things that are quirky are things you can easily enough work around, things like formatting preferences or who are a little extra. But they don’t interfere with your ability to do your job, they don’t make it more difficult to get what you need.

      I can do whatever you want really and tweak how things are done, as long as they’re still done correctly, fully and legally, etc. And they don’t take a ton of extra time because you need to say be involved with every single tiny step along the way. I don’t do micromanaging, that’s bad managing.

      1. zora*

        This is exactly how I was going to put it, but you did it much more succinctly ;)

        Quirks are things everyone can work around, maybe take a little more time, but not much, and everyone is still able to be effective and the final product of the work is good.
        Bad management is when it’s impacting everyone’s ability to actually finish work and get it out the door (and get paid for it, in the case of a for profit)

    12. LadyByTheLake*

      A bad manager makes their employees’ jobs more difficult. Micromanages, doesn’t give complete information, doesn’t protect their employees, doesn’t deal with problems.

    13. Jennifer*

      I think in general the answer is you make the difference. Some quirks match with my quirks and others drive me crazy.

    14. PolarVortex*

      How they treat you. A quirky or not perfect manager may mean you have to change how you communicate information to them, or need someone to balance them out (one manager didn’t understand morale but delegated that to me), or always needs to play devil’s advocate.

      But if they don’t appreciate you, if they don’t recognize that you bring your own skill set, or don’t trust you to know your own area, that’s just not a good manager. I’ve had plenty of odd duck managers, and I’ve also had sexist managers. Or managers who believed stalking was okay when the stalker was a customer. Or managers who didn’t trust me, spending several years in my role, to be the person who understands my area of expertise and instead always went against my advice and was baffled when it failed. (And I laughed and rolled my eyes in the corner.)

      1. Fikly*

        I had a manager who was super nice and appreciate, but did nothing to solve any of the problems the team under him faced, or protect us from those above him.

        I never did find out if he was powerless or if he just did not care to do his job, or what.

        Nice and appreciative only gets you so far.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      A good manager has self-awareness to know to work at her quirks and flaws. You can explain things to her or ask her about things.

      A bad manager not only lacks awareness but also creates new quirks and flaws almost daily. Sometimes HR or the big bosses can’t get through to her either.

    16. Catbug*

      I’ve had two forms of lousy manager, a couple different okay managers, and one really good one.

      Lousy Manager Type 1 was a grouchy, withdrawn absentee of boss, who didn’t engage with the team or seem to have any idea what was going on. They neither assigned work nor had a hand in protecting the team from everyone else’s requests. I once brought them a legitimate complaint: other people were piling on to my workload, to the point that I could’ve worked 60-hour weeks and still not caught up. Their response: “Find a way to do it or I’ll hire somebody who can.” I never complained again, and that manager fortunately only lasted about six more months.

      Lousy Manager Type 2 was much more personable. I actually liked them a lot, but they were two-faced, saying one thing to the team and another to the leadership. Our complaints seemed to mysteriously never reach our grandboss, so very few problems ever got fixed. When there was a major interpersonal issue, both parties were punished and the damage to team morale was never addressed.

      The Really Good Manager celebrated progress in what their employees wanted to do, set challenges that were attainable and then recognized when employees met them, and was friendly without being condescending or ignoring the fact that they had a substantial amount of power over their employees’ lives. When things went wrong, they handled it privately, and took steps to make sure the issues weren’t repeated.

      The okay managers tend to combine traits. Right now I have a manager who’s hard to communicate with, but will move mountains to fix a problem once it’s finally gotten through. What’s generally accepted is going to be so dependent on context that I don’t think a fixed list is going to help you much.

    17. Alice*

      Your question made me think of another one: can you manage well in a bad organization? Can you be a good manager in a bad organization? I’m not even sure if my two questions are the same…..

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        I think you can manage well in a bad organization, but you can’t always manage *effectively.* You can acknowledge and praise high performance, but might have the power to reward it with raises or promotions or other tangible benefits. Conversely, you can be really good about addressing performance problems, but not have the authority to implement significant consequences for poor performance. But you can still make a difference for employees. I had an issue a couple years back where upper leadership and HR handled a promotion situation really badly in a way that created an appearance of inequity, and which hurt the morale of my team. I wasn’t able to get changes made (HR refused), but describing to my team the steps I had taken in my efforts to remediate the situation made them realize that I really was going to bat for them, and I think that did help.

      2. Tau*

        It depends on the sort of badness, I think, but my guess is that a good manager can do a lot to shield his team from the effects of a bad organization but can’t get rid of it entirely. My current manager did a lot to keep the general chaos, lack of direction, and politics of current workplace from impacting us. He did such a good job at this that when he went on stress-related leave, I was really not prepared for what was about to hit me!

    18. Mama Bear*

      I had a manager that was very quirky – a little scattered, weird sense of humor – but I thought they were a good manager because at the end of the day if there was a fire, they were right there with you. If there was a problem with a client, they took the lead/heat instead of throwing the staff under the bus. If there was a discussion to be had, you could have it. This manager was also available both online and in person and made it a point to get to know the team. Firm but fair. Teachable, even, if you can reasonably and professionally prove another way of getting the job done. Willing to admit mistakes and fix them.

      Then I have had bad managers – managers who belittle, or micromanage, or fixate on small things and don’t treat you like a human being. One nagged me about my route to the office, gave me a hard time about maternity leave, and did things like bang on the locked office I was using for pumping after the kid was born. Once called me at 11PM because they were still working vs asking me the next day or sending an email. No respect for me as a person. Another was just demoralizing. They would do things like redline an entire memorandum but not want to discuss it with the person who had been writing the memos for 2 years. More than once kept me on a nonsense call over lunchtime. All they cared was they were right and you were wrong. Add to that they were always late, frequently in front of clients (but you could not be, of course). They mostly worked remote and acted like the distance between the office where the rest of us were and their home was covered in lava, so this micromanagement was cowardly handed out from afar. Never got to know the team. Higher ups must have thought they were effective, but team morale tanked and three people quit within months of each other. I’m sure it is no surprise that manager #2 declined to come to the office for my farewell and barely acknowledged that I was leaving. Did nothing to transfer my tasks to anyone and basically made me feel like I had been fired, even though I had resigned.

      I would take “quirky but reasonably effective” over “a toad in human clothing” ANY day.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Toads are excellent bog gentlefolk who help remove pests and make the environment better for all of us. Your lousy managers were reprobates who don’t even deserve the appellation of leech.

    19. Ra94*

      I think context is a huge element. I have a friend who used to be a manager in property management, and, oh man, by his own admissions, he was a TERRIBLE manager. He has serious long-term memory issues, so he’d forget to tell his team about X or Y property needing certain repairs…leading to furious tenants withholding rent, even angrier landlords threatening to sue, etc. It was a job he’d fallen into, because he was smart and academically overqualified, but it couldn’t have suited him less.

      Now he’s also in a managerial role, but in a totally different industry. It’s not high-stakes- no one will be stuck without heating if he forgets something- and his job is more to coach and support his team. He isn’t really responsible for handing out assignments, so much as getting his team to complete them, and he doesn’t deal with the general public. From the sound of it, this new role lets his great people qualities and creativity shine, and he’s a pretty great manager in this context!

    20. TootsNYC*

      If a manager’s quirks don’t actually make life that hard for me, if they do the cleanup or acknowledge, then I don’t mind.

      I don’t even mind testiness, etc.

      It’s when they blame me for things that are unfair, or when they make big mistakes and they don’t help clean them up.

    21. Akcipitrokulo*

      Considers what is best instead of reacting, supports staff when needed, honest and trusts staff to be adults.

      I can forgive a lot of quirks from someone honest & kind who genuinely does best.

    22. Kudos2MOAS*

      What differentiates between a manager who is good but has flaws/quirks, versus a manager who is bad at their job? Results!
      MOAS asked a great question, super thought provoking. Do you like working for the manager, because she’s kind and nurtures your career? Do you like having that manager working for you, because she herds the cats and finds the solutions and achieves the objectives? Because it doesn’t really matter if your boss scolds you or praises you; is woke or sexist; smells good or bad; what matter is, Do they get it done?
      If your boss treats you great and love working for her but her org unit fails and so you lose your job, she’s not a good manager. If your boss is a btihc and you hate her guts but your org unit triumphs and gets a bonus, you are on the winning team.
      I’ve been in both situations, on both sides of the management/labor divide, and the variable that makes one manager good and another one bad is always the same: RESULTS!

  3. Shark Whisperer*

    I had coffee with the person who has my old position at a toxic old job. It was highly enlightening.

    But first some background: My position at OldJob was something like Llama Grooming and Communications Specialist. They specifically wanted to hire someone with extensive llama grooming experience. People who are attracted to the llama grooming field tend to be people who enjoy being wet and dirty and active all day and having lots of close contact with llamas and other people. The job is advertised as mostly hands on llama grooming with some communications work. It turns out this particular job was only about 5% actually getting any llama time, and 95% sitting in a cube by yourself writing reports. I was fired from OldJob back in April. I was only there 8 months. I was very much not a good fit, so I was ultimately relieved when I was fired. I found another job, that was a much much better fit, about a month and a half later.

    The person who is now the Lllama Grooming and Communications Specialist sent me as email a couple weeks ago saying she had found me on LinkedIn and wanted to pick my brain about the position. (She did not know I had been fired, but I told her right away so that she would have proper context to my thoughts). I had coffee with her and it turns out she is having all the same problems that I had! She’s an expert llama groomer with little communications experience who is struggling both to learn communications stuff and being an active extrovert stuck in a sedentary solitary roll.

    I don’t know why they keep hiring llama groomers for this position! There’s been a ton of turnover in OldJob’s communications department, but OldJob doesn’t seem to be trying to do anything about it.

    Do any of you have any stories about companies repeatedly advertising their positions wrong?

    1. AnonEMoose*

      I don’t have a story about that specifically. But years ago, I was in a position where, in retrospect, I was very much set up to fail (although I don’t think it was intentional). The expectations were just very contradictory – I was supposed to simultaneously be constantly available to clients, and complete projects requiring concentration and sustained attention by specific deadlines. That…didn’t work, and they fired me. Which was both a relief and a blow – losing a job is hard, regardless.

      Anyway, some time later, I’d found a temp job (that turned into my current full time job, at which I have been happily employed for more than 10 years), and was heading out for lunch. I happened to run into someone I knew from the same place. He told me that after i’d been fired, they started “doing to me what they did to you,” and he left as a result. It was incredibly validating to hear someone else familiar with the situation say that they’d noticed what had happened and that it wasn’t ok. Also that my experience led to him reading the writing on the wall and getting out and into a better position.

      Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about the company in this case – you owe them nothing. Either they’ll figure it out or they’ll keep losing employees. But know that you probably did help the other person realize that it’s them, not her. And that’s important, too.

      1. same HERE*

        lol, are you ME? Because almost same here, except I also had a predecessor, who ended up in mandated anger management and stress relief classes because “the job wasn’t a fit” for him either. Three bad fits with the same boss? Hmmmm…

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I don’t have experience in this, but I can understand why your former company keeps hiring llama groomers for this role – they most likely believe (incorrectly) that anyone can write, but you can’t teach someone to do the specialized work that comes with being a llama groomer. I see this thought process all the time, and as someone who actually is in a communications-related role and who has a degree in journalism, it’s annoying. No, everyone cannot learn to write well enough to be responsible for drafting effective white papers or proposal content or campaigns and etc. What those of us who are really good at those things do is a subject matter expertise in its own right, and my manager tells me all the time he didn’t realize how hard what I did was until I came onboard and significantly improved the company’s written content.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        *but you can’t teach someone on the job how to do the specialized work that comes with being a llama groomer

        1. Shark Whisperer*

          Truth! I think you’re completely right. I just wonder how many people have to quit or be fired before they try something else.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Lol, probably a lot more because they’re trying to get two totally different jobs out of one person to save money (because that’s ultimately what it boils down to).

      2. AnonEMoose*

        I think you’re right. Why do people think writing is “easy”? If it’s a very specialized area, I’d recommend having someone with that expertise read things for accuracy, but that’s not the same as writing them. That attitude frustrates me so much!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Why do people think writing is “easy”?

          Because you typically don’t need an advanced degree to do it or be good at it (depending on the discipline/genre you choose) and those people haven’t had to try to get paid for doing it as their sole source of income. Basically, if those people who say this had to try to survive off their writing alone, most of them would starve. However, these people typically have other job duties in addition to their written responsibilities, so because no one has ever had to tell them that they suck and subsequently reject their written work, they then think the passable or serviceable thing they’ve written is actually good when it (usually) really isn’t.

          1. The Original K.*

            Also, lots of people write every day so they think that means they must be good writers. Emails, social media posts (personal ones, not ones for the company) … in my experience, many people assume that because they can do those things, that means they can write anything. This is really, really not true.

            I remember working with a subject matter expert in a previous (toxic) job, who was one of those people who thought he was smarter than he was – he was indeed a subject matter expert in that subject, but he assumed that meant that he could do everything. And he insisted that he was a good writer, so my boss (who liked him; I did not) let him write something for a campaign. It was awful. Totally unusable. And he was indignant when we told him we couldn’t use it because no one had ever told him his writing sucked.

        2. Rex Manning*

          This is when I like to use the analogy “Just because you know how to cook, it doesn’t mean you’re a chef.”

      4. CM*

        This is a really good point, and I bet you’re right.

        I’m flashing back to all the times at my last job where we needed content on X and the higher-ups seemed to believe that the only logical solution was to have an expert on X write the content themselves instead of letting one of the writers on my team interview them and do the writing.

      5. Karen from Finance*

        Yes, this is my thought too. They probably think it’s better to hire someone who knows about llama grooming because they take for granted the communication skills required.

      6. Clisby*

        Your comment reminded me of a Wall Street Journal article I read a few years back:

        ““It’s easier to hire people who can write—and teach them how to read financial statements—rather than hire accountants in hopes of teaching them to be strong writers,” says Liz Kirschner, head of talent acquisition at Morningstar Inc., a Chicago investment-research firm. Since its founding in 1986, Morningstar has hired an unusually large number of humanities and social-sciences majors.”

        https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-news-liberal-arts-majors-your-peers-probably-wont-outearn-you-forever-1473645902

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I’m glad to see that there seems to be a shift in the thinking in some hiring managers, though clearly, given OP’s situation, it hasn’t gone far enough yet.

          Basically, if a company wants well-written documentation, they need to hire actual writers – period. Otherwise, they need to be content with just average or barely competent.

    3. Jubilance*

      So my first job out of grad school was as a materials chemist at a defense contractor – no engineering work involved, purely laboratory chemist stuff. For some reason, that division of the company did not have a job code for “chemist” in Taleo, they only had “chemical engineer”. Well HR and the recruiting team thought those must be the same thing right? So they posted an opening for a chemical engineer position. This was a time sensitive posting because 2 of the 4 people in the lab were retiring (with firm dates) and they needed to backfill early to do some transfer of knowledge.

      They spent 8 MONTHS getting resumes and talking to candidates, only to have all their candidates turn down the job, because it wasn’t an engineering job! After 8 months, the lab team finally went to go talk to the recruiting team and realized the issue, and convinced them that an actual chemical engineer is not going to want to run FTIR and DSC samples all day. They couldn’t do anything about the job code so it was still listed as an engineering position, but they changed the description to say that it was 100% a laboratory testing role.

      I wound up interviewing with the team 1 day before half the team retired. And that’s how I got an chemical engineer job even though I switched my major from ChemE to chemistry back in undergrad.

      1. Junior Assistant Peon*

        I had that problem when my HR manager insisted we go through one of those god-awful Aerotek/Kelly/Yoh/etc agencies to hire someone for the lab. Of course, the non-scientist going through the resumes had no idea what any of the technical terms in the job description meant, so we got a trickle of poorly-fitting candidates to interview. The HR lady angrily said “what, do you want to go through a thick stack of resumes yourself?” and the answer was a resounding yes!

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          Oh, right, that happened to me, too. In the first job as a team lead on a rapidly growing team for which we were hiring continuously (I went from 2 to 9 reports in ~3.5 years). We were hiring technical support analysts with fluent English PLUS one other European language. We kept getting resumes via the recruiting agency from people with experience doing in-house IT support. Two problems: a) they were familiar with very scripted processes – upgrade Windows, reset a printer, set up a new workstation, reinstall something-or-other; b) they usually had no experience whatsoever dealing with clients. While we needed people who could support our specific product, troubleshoot it and think on their feet, and able to deal with our (high-value) customers. Fresh graduated in fields like management information science, web development, or other tech fields could work IF they were good communicators and had done an internship to learn professional norms. But when in doubt I was more successful hiring customer service people with a nerdy streak and train them up on the tech stuff myself.

          1. Support lead*

            Oh my god, that’s almost exactly my situation and experience! Fortunately some of the internal IT people turned out to have the right attitude, but when we had hired all of them and had no more luck, call center workers with interest in learning more technology heavy stuff helped us grow the team further (and are bringing a great attitude to the team) .

    4. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      I’m going through something similar at the moment. They’re advertising for a replacement for one of my team. The job advert keeps going out saying (something like) “Industry specific knowledge essential AND Financial specific knowledge required” because it’s based word for word on the team lead’s (being replaced due to promotion) work objectives. The trouble is, this would narrow down applicants to a tiny handful of people, who probably already have jobs in (better paying) companies. It’s supposed to say “Industry specific knowledge an advantage / Finance specific knowledge preferred”, because I came into the team with neither and was taught both over my tenure.

      To make it even better, the job has gone out on three different job sites, but only one of them has posted the salary range (and has mis-identified it as a managerial post – it’s not by any stretch of the imagination!)

      This post is slightly more senior than the rest of the team, but the essential position has been advertised six times in the last six and a half years (replacement team members in all but one case – this will be the seventh advert). We’re only a team of four. You don’t need a Finance degree to do the maths…

      1. Junior Assistant Peon*

        My last company did this too. When I left, they cut and pasted my wildly outdated formal job description verbatim in the ad.

        1. Mama Bear*

          I had a company ask me about my job description when I gave my notice. I gave them feedback that was what the job *really* entailed…and they didn’t make any changes. I hope they found what they wanted b/c that wasn’t the reality of the job at all.

    5. German Girl*

      Yup, a very similar thing happened to a friend, who was the second llama groomer hired for the communications position. But when he found a new job elsewhere, he told his grandboss to advertise for a communications expert instead and grandboss listened – so there is hope.

    6. Minocho*

      I’ve told this story a couple of times here, so apologies to those seeing it again.

      When I was looking for what turned out to be my current job, there was another position that I was also pursuing. This position was advertised as a software development / project management type position, which is right up my alley. The first two interviews, with the hiring manager and his manager, both made the job sound like exactly what I was looking for, where I had the skills to take the job, but there would be lots of opportunity to learn and improve my skills as well.

      I was scheduled with one more interview. This interview was odd, it would be with a coworker, and with a team of people from the client for the project I would be managing (this was a strange situation where the client was technically a separate entity for legal reasons, but tightly intertwined with the hiring entity). During this third interview, it quickly became clear that there were serious issues with the project and the relationship between the client entity and the hiring entity- including serious trust issues. After the client party left, the coworker spend about half an hour telling me how awful they were, how awful the job would be, and about how really the expectation was that the position’s main duty would be managing an already strained client relationship.

      I received an offer, but asked for time to consider, and called current job about the fact I had an offer, but had some time to entertain an offer from them. They responded with a satisfactory offer, and I took it and turned down offer number 1.

      The hiring manager’s manager called me in person to ask why I’d turned down the offer, as he had considered me accepting the offer a done deal. I told him the third interview revealed the position was not as advertised, and it was in both his and my interest to find a person that better matched the needs of the position. I also suggested that he change the job description to match reality. He responded that they had been advertising the job more honestly before, but nobody was applying.

      ::shrug::

      Sorry dude, I don’t know what to tell you, but I’m not taking that job, for sure!

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yes, I’ve had jobs like that too.

        Job Ad: Employee will know and enforce a safe llama environment according to animal welfare guidelines.
        Actual job: Employee will disregard any and all llama welfare guidelines because following guidelines costs money.

    7. Savannah*

      Yes, and it is so annoying!

      I caught this in the application process but why did I even apply? The position was A&B Manager (two areas connected to marketing). I have a ton of experience in A and have done some of B to the extent my previous industry made it possible. The first interview was with the woman who was transitioning out of the position to do strategy. She was doing mostly A and was in touch with external agencies doing B (which I had been doing). I was called in for the second round with the manager and it turns out the position is new and not a direct handover from the woman changing positions – they were totally not in sync. In additiom, the job duties she talked about had nothing to do with A, it was essentially about revamping everything B.

      Luckily the hiring manager knew what she expected from the role (after I asked very specifically about the expected accomplishments after the first year) but I was still annoyed because it was 95% B and I was coming in with a focus on A. I can only imagine how terrible it is when you learn on the job that it’s not what you’d signed up for. Good thing you got away and are in a much better place now.

    8. Nessun*

      Wellll….we keep advertising for an EA, when the C-suite they’d be supporting seems to want a PA with a specific industry background and no personal life. (All sarcasm aside, the role they’ve posted – and filled, and terminated three times now – is not the role as it plays out day to day. And until we’re up front about wanting someone who has a lot of experience in the industry but is willing to be paid as an admin, we’re never going to find a good fit.)

    9. Jerk Store*

      It never got the point of getting hired, but my predecessor was in charge of contacting our temp agency vendor when we needed help. Our parent company would approve the budget for a temp but not didn’t want to pay a buyout fee to hire a temp full time. My predecessor was in denial about this and would always tell our temp agency it was a possible temp to hire.

    10. Overeducated*

      YES. This has happened in my department repeatedly over the last few years. It was clearly because the manager who retired last year really WANTED it to be a llama grooming specialist department, but our organization’s higher level priorities and legal requirements really focused on llama program administration. So he’d keep hiring llama groomers who’d get really frustrated about never touching an actual llama because they were so focused on administrative paperwork, and they’d leave after a year or two. Our turnover in the last year has been insane.

      The current management just rehired for three positions, and this time they were advertised totally differently, as program specialists rather than llama grooming specialists. One interesting thing is that the new hires are a little older and have a broader range of experiences than our previous staff. We are really hoping that presenting the job honestly will help us find people who will stick around longer.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        When the hiring manager wants something different from the people higher up in the company… senior management wins in the long run. I’ve lived that lesson too.

    12. Pennalynn Lott*

      In my current situation, it’s not that we’re advertising the positions wrong, it’s that my VP is hiring the wrong people. We’re IT Auditors. We need to know about IT *and* how to audit. But my VP kicked out everyone above a certain level who knows how to audit and is bringing in straight IT people.

      So now my department is filled with people who are unhappy (and ineffective) because not only are they not getting to do any actual IT work but now they have to meticulously document the real IT folks’ work. Which is frustrating if you haven’t been trained in (a) how to look for mistakes/risks, and (b) how to document those mistakes and risks with so much detail and in such a way that even someone with no experience in IT, your company, or your industry could understand the work you did and the conclusions you came to.

      And, to make matters worse, the VP has told us staff auditors that it’s our job to correct the managers when they go off the rails or get too deep in the weeds of the technology instead of sticking to the audit project scope. Because what could possibly go wrong with that approach?

    13. Little Beans*

      I was in a situation that sounds very similar, and it was because the supervisor fundamentally misunderstood the role – it was advertised as a senior llama groomer, but he really wanted a policy analyst and program manager who would work with llama-related issues. He got applicants like me who had those skills but actually wanted to work with llamas. I figured out during the interview process that the job was not as advertised (I walked out of the first interview thinking, what job did I just interview for). I ended up accepting it with reservations, but left after only a year. When I left, I tried unsuccessfully to convince them to reclassify the role, but at least I was able to meet with an internal candidate who was interested and was very upfront about exactly what the job actually was – she turned out to still be excited about it and ended up getting hired.

    14. mrs__peel*

      I know that, in many companies, job postings are written by HR (for legal reasons) and not by anyone in the department who’s actually familiar with the specific work that needs to be done. That can be frustrating for everybody.

      But it could be intentionally misleading, if they know that advertising it correctly as 95% [x] would lead fewer people to apply.

    15. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      Mine isn’t about false advertising but about the bright shiny things phenomenon. I worked for a very large company that hired me to be “disruptive.” After 3 years, when they did a reorg, I had been there long enough to become stale, and my position remained vacant for 9 months until they found someone disruptive enough to replace me. I hope he does great, but would not be surprised if the same thing happened to him in a few years. I am in social media/digital marketing and there is this constant concern that they need someone with “a fresh set of eyes” to shake things up. I’m now myself a bright shiny thing again at an agency, interviewing to go back to brand-side, and it makes me cringe a bit to hear other hiring managers talk about how no one on their current team has the “fresh” perspective needed for their company.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Do these companies invest in employee development at all like sending people to training, signing them up for industry conferences, etc.? Because that’s how people get fresh perspectives – by being given training opportunities.

    16. MissDisplaced*

      I had a similar thing happen with my awful gaslighting boss. When I was hired I was told the person prior to me was moonlighting and working freelance design out of the office on work time.

      But she contacted me on LinkedIn to ask me about something and that’s when I found out he and his girlfriend lied and had basically done the same gaslighting on this person. And she hadn’t been moonlighting but he had spied in the email and saw her sister’s request to make wedding invitations. Horrible people.

    17. Mellow cello*

      The weirdest job interview I ever had was for a research scientist position with a major focus on paediatric cancer. Except they didn’t specify any of that in the job ad or take that into consideration when they were shortlisting interview candidates. So my interview with them was a very odd experience with question after question about paediatric cancer research (not even close to my research expertise!). And then after that disaster, even I asked if a candidate needed strong cancer credentials, they said no!

      I still have no idea what they were thinking but they wasted their time and candidates’ time for no good reason.

    18. tamarack and fireweed*

      It’s IME not even that rare that people keep hiring the wrong candidates into their position, that is, aren’t sufficiently aware of their own staffing needs! For example, sometimes there is a large prestige difference between what they think they need (and maybe, the job title of who used to hold the corresponding position in the past, maybe before a major technology shift in the field…) and the actual main occupation of the position holder is going to be.

      This shouldn’t be a problem — managers make mistake, and analyzing the situation should have revealed that, oops, we thought we need a llama grooming expert, but in reality all the llama grooming is being done by llama grooming apprentices and technicians using the new Llama Groomer Automatic(TM) device, and what you need is a PR person with llama grooming domain knowledge, and a part-time overseer of the grooming operations. BUT instead of realizing that mishiring was the reason you weren’t successful in the job they’re focussed on blame and CYA, so it has to have been that you were lazy, lying about your credentials, or otherwise had fatal flaws. So they keep making the same mistake.

      Definitely a sign of bad management.

    19. Just Another Manic Millie*

      When I applied for a position at a stock brokerage company through an employment agency, the employment agency guy told me that experience working at a stock brokerage company wasn’t necessary. The branch manager at the stock brokerage company told me that, too. So did the office manager. So did my prospective supervisor. So did my prospective co-worker, who told me that he would be responsible for training me. So I assumed that experience wasn’t necessary. But when I started, I was given no training at all. I found out that they had wanted someone with experience working at a stock brokerage company, but all of the applicants who had such experience wanted more money than what they were willing to pay. I gave two weeks notice after I was there for four months. Since I was there for more than three months, they owed a full commission to the employment agency, and they were quite annoyed. Too bad.

      An ad that I answered for another job said that knowledge of a foreign language was helpful. I told them that I knew French, and was that what they wanted? They said that any language was fine. But when I started working there, I found out that they really wanted someone who knew a different foreign language, but when they advertised for someone who was fluent in that language, they weren’t happy with the applicants who answered the ad. After I left that job and got another one, I was lucky enough to be able to see my file. I found out that that company gave me a bad reference, saying that I didn’t speak the foreign language that I had no idea was the foreign language they had been looking for (and knew damn well that I never claimed to be fluent in it).

      At another company, I answered an ad for an admin asst, only to be “forced” to replace the vacationing receptionist on my first day, and then I was told that I would be the permanent receptionist. I found out that when they advertised for a receptionist, they did not care for the applicants who answered the ad.

  4. General Chaos Wragnler*

    Hey Billable Hours People! I’m in my first job where I am tracking all of my time by client and activity, and I am looking for tips. I have a spreadsheet that I use as a timeclock of sorts, but when I’m busy, or I get interrupted I’ll forget to “punch out,” and then at the end of the day, or the next day I’m guessing what I did. So, what has and hasn’t worked for those of you who have been doing this for a while?

    1. Cucumberzucchini*

      Harvest (harvestapp.com) has been a lifesaver for my business. It has a website and an app and it works really well. I always make sure to write description in the moment. The app can also remind you when it thinks you’ve forgotten to stop a project.

      1. iglwif*

        Seconding the rec for Harvest! I used it for freelancing for years, and actually my previous full-time job used it as well. For a single user it’s like … <US$15 a month I think? Not free, but not super expensive. You can designate different tasks as billable or not billable, and you can have multiple clients and multiple tasks for each client.

    2. Lyudie*

      I’m not good about using it on a regular basis, but there’s a free application called Grindstone that’s great for time tracking. You can set up different projects, use it like a stop watch, and then look back at the time you spent on each project. There’s a mobile app as well as the desktop application.

    3. Chronic Overthinker*

      Pinging this as I too need assistance with this task. I’m constantly interrupted throughout my day as I am the first point of contact for all individuals in the office and over the phone (receptionist) but do take additional tasks on an as needed basis throughout the day.

    4. Ashley*

      I don’t enter my time until Fridays, so I never remember EXACTLY what I did. But I typically go through my sent emails and reference my calendar for which meetings or projects I’ve worked on. We’re also usually given an allotment of hours per client/project a month, so I use that as back ground.

      1. ExcelJedi*

        Honestly, as someone who does contractor/vendor management, I’d be upset to hear that my contractors billed me based on what they remembered at the end of the week. There’s too much of a chance of being over-billed. I might even start asking for daily updates on billing hours, or consider ending the relationship.

        It works both ways, too – if they happened to do 2 hours of focused research for me on a Monday (but didn’t email me about it), I wouldn’t want to underpay them because they forgot to include that.

        1. mrs__peel*

          I work for a federal contractor, and we’re required (per contract) to enter our time daily for exactly this reason. There are very strict rules about accuracy in billing.

          1. Curmudgeon in California*

            Yeah, when we were on federal jobs we either had to fill out our timesheets daily or have a hard copy contemporaneous log. I kept a log, because it had more detail, and I could more easily refer to it.

      2. Nessun*

        I do the same thing – using my sent folder and calendar as a guide for the work I did. My time has to be coded to billable codes, but my services aren’t reviewed in deciding how to invoice (my time would never be quoted on an invoice, and a lot of what I do falls into a bucket covered by administrative charges), so it’s a useful way to remind myself what I worked on, but doesn’t have to be specific or exact. If customers were billed for my time, I would use a stopwatch app (we have one built into our time coding system).

      3. NoviceManagerGuy*

        You’re doing it wrong! Use something – a spreadsheet, one of those apps, whatever else – to keep track of it during the week.

    5. Let's Just Say Eleven*

      This might seem counter-intuitive, but what’s been working for me for the past 5 years is keeping track of every individual activity I do during the day as opposed to a sum total at the end. So in my spreadsheet I might have 5 different entries for one day, each of them describing the work (e.g., writing proposal for XYZ client). It very quickly got me in the habit of writing down what time I start a new task and what time I finish it, because I’m doing that multiple times a day. This works for me because I bill multiple clients so really have to track time for each closely, I’m nearly always in front of my computer when I’m working, and it gives me insight into how long certain tasks take so I can estimate hours better at the start of new, similar projects. Don’t know if that’s helpful (it might be exactly the same process you’re already using, I couldn’t quite tell) but I’m sure you’ll get plenty of awesome suggestions here! I’m interested to hear what other people are using as well.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Yes, this is what I do. Every task in real time. It’s rare for me to sit at one project for over an hour unless I’m in a meeting (and how I love being able to mark two hours for a meeting rather than four or five different itemized entries!).

        Being constantly distracted from important tasks is a separate issue: might be an office culture issue or an expectations issue or even a you issue. The timesheet struggle is only highlighting this issue, not causing it.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I once got past this “being interrupted all the time” thing by insisting that new tasks had to be written on a piece of paper and placed in the In Box, and that I never, ever stopped what I was doing.

          Everything that came in had to be done “next,” not “now.” (of course, sometimes it wasn’t literally the very next one, but nothing was allowed to interrupt)

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        This is pretty much what I do. I’ve actively made it a habit to write sh-t down as I’m doing it, every task, every matter, all day, every day.

        Eventually it’s as much of a habit as clicking your seatbelt when you get in the car.

      3. Bagpuss*

        Me too. We have physical time sheets and there are codes for different types of activity (e.g. meetings, preparation/ research/drafting, travel, phone calls, letters/emails,) and I record as I go. Anything like meetings or research I do a note for the file saying what mount of time I spent, which means that clients can be billed accurately
        If you are using a spreadsheet I’d do the same – note the time at the end of each activity – once you start, it becomes a habit and you are less likely to overlook it.

    6. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Look at time tracking apps. I used one years ago on my Palm device. It worked great. All you needed to do was make a list of the projects and tap on each one as you were working on it. If it was tapped the clock was running. Sorry but I can’t remember the name of it.

      2. curly sue*

        That sounds like Clockify, the app / website I’m using these days. I find the app is a bit touchy on my android phone (sometimes doesn’t seem to register), but the website works very well.

    7. Summertime*

      Following this because I also don’t have a particularly good method. I don’t like to track day by day, so I tend to look through my calendar to see what meetings I’ve attended through the month and approximate based on that. It isn’t a terribly great approximation.

      Follow up question to General Chaos Wragnler, do you ever feel guilty charging hours to people when you’re doing research to figure out how to complete tasks from clients? I work with a lot of more experienced people and feel bad for charging more time simply because I’m less experienced and require more time than most to complete a particular task.

      1. CheeryO*

        You shouldn’t feel guilty as long as you’re working in good faith and not, for example, spending hours Googling something that a coworker could teach you in a few minutes. Your company likely bills you out at a lower rate than your more experienced coworkers, so it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.

      2. TootsNYC*

        this is why people who are really good charge more and get away with it. Because the client pays the same in money but gets stuff faster. They also can move through more clients in the same time.

    8. CatCat*

      When I used to have to track my time like this, I did it on paper. I circled when I started and then circled when I stopped and wrote down what it was I was working on. Repeated throughout the day. When I did 15 min increments, I was able to use a commercial weekly planner that was split into 15 min increments for this purpose. When I did 6 min increments, I had a table in Word and just printed it out. I found tracking it on paper is what worked best for me.

    9. fhqwhgads*

      Do you have to enter your time in a time entry system with the time associated to the right client/project? I’ve known people who did the “spreadsheet during the day – transfer it all to the real system at the end of the day” system and had it work well for them, but if that’s not working for you it may be better to try to develop the habit of entering time live and avoiding the double-entry. It might take you a few weeks to really get used to it but the best advice I have is to make the real thing you need to do the habit. I’ve known a lot of folks who had their informal system that was supposed to be making it easier, but like you said if they forgot once they’d be trying to remember and scrambling to make it up. So in those situations I always recommend building the real thing into your day. Once it becomes habit it won’t feel weird. Even if you get interrupted just pause – “I need to officially switch tasks, one sec” click where you need to click before continuing with the interruption. It can be done.

    10. Kiwiii*

      Commenting here because while it’s not Vital I track my hours at new job between projects accurately (my team’s project money is subscription based and all goes into a bucket; project tracking is to get a better idea of projects we might be spending too much time on), I haven’t had a jobs where I’ve had to track projects at all and need some ideas!

        1. Kiwiii*

          I searched this and it seems to be a time management tool? the tracking I would need is more related to ensuring we catch when clients are a resource suck

    11. curly sue*

      I’ve started using Clockify, which is a website and has an app, and so far so good. I’e only been using it for a couple of weeks, mind you.

    12. Grievance Commissioner*

      I use Toggl.com to track my hours and it’s a lifesaver! It’s really easy to switch between tasks, which I love, and it will compile reports in a variety of ways. It makes filling out my timesheet so much less painful – even if I don’t fill it out until Friday afternoon, I still have all the info I need and don’t have to try to remember anything. I’ve converted a lot of folks in my office to using it, too.

      1. Alice*

        Seconding Toggl! It’s seriously so useful that I still use it even though I don’t need to track billable time anymore. I love the color-coding you can do between different projects and how you don’t have to re-type everything for repeating tasks.

    13. ElleWoods*

      I’ve used the HoursTracker app for almost four years and I love it. I did get the paid version (like 6 or 7), and I use the feature that makes me include a comment as to what I did whenever I clock out. It’s so beyond helpful. I enter my time daily, but it’s also a great help if you have to enter less frequently.

      I also really like that it has the option to pause the time – I use that a lot.

    14. A Simple Narwhal*

      When I used to work a billable hours job, I would print out my outlook calendar for the day each morning (the one that has the full hourly markup of the day). As I was working, I would mark what time it was and what task/client I was working on, and then mark when I was done. I felt that having something I could physically scribble a note on made things quicker and easier, plus it also would already have all of my meetings on it as well. And when I inevitably waited until Friday afternoon to enter my hours, rather than doing it day by day, as was recommended/easier, having a stack of my notes with hourly breakdowns made it a lot easier to account for my time.

    15. Coverage Associate*

      I like my Timeular. I got it on sale for $50. It’s a device that tracks how long each side is facing up. When I switch projects, I just switch it to the side corresponding to that project. I like that it’s physical and only takes one hand, so I can deal with it while on the phone.

      For professionals who have to track billable hours, how they do it should be like exercise. Give people lots of tools and options and let them pick. I have worked with too many bosses who didn’t understand that their way wasn’t everyone’s best way.

    16. Ughhhh*

      I just write down my time in our time keeping software immediately upon finishing (or pausing) a task. Basically anytime I switch gears while at work. I don’t use timers, I just eyeball it from the clock. If I don’t remember exactly when I started taking a break or switching gears, I do my best to figure it out from memory or email timestamps. But I typically remember to track it as I go because that helps me see how close I am to reaching my goal for that day, which is encouraging. It’s a habit like any other.

    17. Massive Dynamic*

      I track every 15min and I do it all in Excel… we bill out the sum of our minutes to clients each day and I keep a more detailed log of how long each task is taking, and then just sum it up and use the task detail to write up a clear description of what the 3.5 hours, etc. entailed that day. I also round off about five min… for example, if a coworker needs to discuss client X with me, whether it takes 10 minutes or 20, I’m billing client X for 15. Applying the rounding consistently both ways means that overall it’s fair in the end for the client.

      If I ever lose track of time on tasks, looking at the last time I’ve saved off various files is a lifesaver for me to back into how long it took me to complete each task.

    18. Anon for this*

      I (consultant, work on multiple projects) actually use old fashioned theme books — you know, the ones with the black and white marbleized covers? (They come in other varieties too, but if you think of those you’ll be visualizing the ones I use.) It also keeps me from having random scraps of paper with notes on them all over my desk — when I start work for the day I write down the time, the project I’m working on, and then I write down EVERYTHING (what I’m working on that day, notes from calls with my project manager, stuff that needs to be scribbled down someplace — even just lists of row numbers, if I’m working in Excel, my to-do lists, ideas about process improvements) in the notebook. When I stop, I write the time down (next to the start time on the top).
      At the end of the month, I calculate the hours (if I didn’t do it on the day, I have start and stop times right there). If I need to go back and see when I talked with someone, or what I was thinking about methodologies, it’s all right there. Most of what I wind up keeping is garbage, but it still saves me the step of having to go through all the random pieces of paper on my desk and think “is this something I need to keep?”
      Each notebook lasts somewhere from several months to over a year, depending on how much I’m working and how much I feel like writing down.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        I actually made my own custom log book, with lines and columns for start time, project number, description and stop time. GBC spiral (if I had to do it again I’d coil bind it), about 25 to 50 sheets. I still get tempted to reproduce them and sell them.

        If I ended up with stuff on post-its, I’d tape them into my log.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If I didn’t punch back in from lunch, I eat the time between when I *think* I came back and when I sent my first email. It’s been a very good incentive for me to get it right.

    20. MoopySwarpet*

      I have used Atracker – atracker(dot)pro – when I’ve needed to account for every task.

      It has all kinds of variables. You can assign projects, add tasks individually, etc. You can also set it to automatically prompt you for a note when you stop it. You can also adjust the start/end times if you forget to stop it. Reports can be exported.

      The free version is pretty limited, but does give you enough to play around with and see if it will work for you.

      I personally use it more to track high level tasks/projects and add the notes to remember the individual tasks. I find that works better for me that starting/stopping individual tasks that might take less than 5 minutes. For bigger tasks, I do log them separately.

      I’ve also used Pomodone, which is more of the pomodoro method, but does allow different projects/lists and reports on where you’ve spent your time.

    21. Clever Name*

      I have a notepad where I keep track of the projects/tasks. Ideally I’d write down the start and stop time, but I normally write how long I worked on something as I’m working. (Answered email for project X…… .25 hour; worked on Blah report…..3 hours, etc.). We are required to enter our time daily because it is a requirement for many federal projects. The folks who go back through their emails at the end of the week are not being effective and are certainly not billing accurately.

    22. TootsNYC*

      I haven’t done it.

      But I’ve pondered how I’d organie it.

      I would probably not do well with keeping it electronically, because I do my WORK on the computer.

      I’d probably print out some master sheets with row for times (with 15-minute intervals marked down the side) and columns for the projects.

      Then I’d put them on a clipboard and keep it on my desk. Then I’d have it visually there to remind me. I’d build in a routine of putting it on my chair when I get up to go to the bathroom or lunch, and then I’d be more likely to fill it out.

      Sometimes I still need an analog solution.

    23. Quinalla*

      Are you actually billing your time to your client or do you track billable hours to make sure projects are generally in budget, but clients are billed an already agreed upon fee? If you are actually billing hours, I high recommend an app or spreadsheet or something to keep close track as many have recommended. If it is for internal tracking, then filling out your timesheet at the end of the day should be fine. That’s what I try to do, though sometimes I don’t do it until the end of the week and then I’m going through my calendar, milestones and emails to refresh my memory.

    24. Curmudgeon in California*

      When I was doing consulting, I literally had a paper task/time log book, with start, end, project number and description. I did my timesheet from that log. I could also go back months and tell you what I did on a certain day.

      I tried logging on the computer, and it didn’t work. I would forget to bring up the spreadsheet, etc. The log book was right there, open, next to me so it never fell victim to “out of sight, out of mind” like a spreadsheet did.

    25. rinkydink*

      I also forgot to manually “switch tasks” using a lot of these tools (like Toggl). So I used tools like RescueTime to just track everything I did on my computer (it shows applications + file names/tabs) – at the end of the day/week I could just skim through and see when the files/tabs I had open switched from one project to another. Any gaps I’d fill in from my calendar (meetings). I actually used Toggl to actually label the projects/tasks and add them up after, but you could also just use your calendar or pen-and-paper.

    26. LilyP*

      I always find just looking through my browser history super helpful. It can give me a sense of when I got back to my desk after being gone and sometimes even remind me of which specific task I was working on when.

    27. Gumby*

      I do the majority of my job at a desk, so this might not be applicable to you but: I keep a literal pad of paper by my mouse where I note down the time when I change projects/tasks. On occasion I still miss writing down the switches, but usually I realize when I do the next switch and can do a fairly good estimate. For me it is much easier to write a quick number on paper than to open a spreadsheet or find the right app or whatever. The paper is there, I can’t miss it, picking up a pen takes half a second.

      Of course at the end of the day I take all of those times and put them in a spreadsheet too. But if I had to note them in the spreadsheet as I went along I would miss many more. (I frequently have multiple spreadsheets open at a time so it wouldn’t draw my attention to just keep it open all day.)

    28. GreyNerdShark*

      I found “note when you stop and start” to be difficult. I kept forgetting. So I wrote a thing that popped up every 15 minutes and had boxes I clicked to say which project I was working on for the previous 15 mins. (we did 15 because it wasn’t just project it was activity in project. Annoying as hell)

      Not a lot of help for people using Windows I’m afraid… But consider how you work. If you get distracted a lot and find clocking in and out of a task difficult consider looking for something that pops up regularly to say “what are you working on now, write it down”.

    29. LilySparrow*

      Paper.
      I used to keep an agenda page divided into the same time increments we billed by. When I started working under a new code, I’d jot it down and then draw an arrow from the last entry to the new one. That physical record was a lot easier for me to make stick as a habit when switching clients.

      If all else fails, I can usually reconstruct it pretty well from my browser history and my saved document timestamps.

  5. Anon for this*

    I need some advice.

    I coordinated an organization-wide (nonprofit) training event recently and am reviewing the evaluations to compile results and send them to the event committee, which includes my boss and two board members. There are three strongly worded comments about my boss, who spoke for about 10 minutes during the event. The words “condescending,” “rude” and “unprofessional” were used.

    It’s a pretty awkward situation for me. My question is: should I give him a heads up that the comments exist, or should I just send the survey results out to the entire committee and let him read it at the same time as everyone else?

    1. DataGirl*

      ooff. I would definitely give my boss a head’s up. I imagine the fallout if it goes out to everyone without him seeing it first would be bad for you.

      1. Heidi*

        I agree with giving him advanced notice. You didn’t mention if the criticism was justified, but since there were 3 individual people saying this, it may well have been. If he is condescending, rude, and unprofessional, he might not care. He might have even gotten this feedback before. And the committee won’t be surprised either. If he’s not that bad, but come across that way for some reason, he might be able to formulate an improvement plan that he can present to the committee and get ahead on solving this problem.

    2. finally october*

      I’d give him a heads-up, but only if the comments are anonymous and there’s nothing in them that can identify a person for retaliation. If there is, I would put a mental block in and just report that the comments weren’t good.

    3. IL JimP*

      I would probably give him a heads up so he’s not blindsided but I guess it depends on your relationship and how he’s likely to react

    4. tape deck*

      I would just send it out. I don’t know what benefit he would get out of knowing beforehand. I don’t think you owe him a heads up or anything.

    6. OtterB*

      I’d give him a heads up. This falls in my rule of thumb “Do not let your boss have unpleasant surprises.”

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        This. I have a post-it on my desk that says “Don’t be the most senior person holding a big secret.”

    7. iglwif*

      Was he, in fact, condescending, rude, and unprofessional? Because I feel like that has a bearing on how you approach this with him.

      But even if he was/is those things — actually, maybe especially if he is! — you should give him a heads-up. Because he presumably knows you saw the results before the rest of the committee, and if you don’t tell him, he will know you knew and didn’t say anything, and he’s not going to appreciate that.

      Does he *deserve* a heads-up? Maybe not, but it’s better *for you* if your boss isn’t blindsided, because if he is, he will definitely blame you :(

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think it’s relevant how many evaluations you received; is it 3 out of 15, or 3 out of 1,000? Three out of 15 is significant; but 3 out of 1,000 could be 3 people who have a separate axe to grind with your boss, or 3 wackos that take offense to every innocuous thing and blow it out of proportion, like, “He wore a purple tie! Purple is the color of royalty! How condescending, unprofessional and rude!”

    10. CM*

      Are you sending the text of the comments, or a summary of what they said?

      If you’re sending the text of the comments, and all of the comments for everything are included, then I don’t think you need to give anyone a heads up, because you’re essentially just funneling info from the evaluation to the committee.

      If you’re summarizing, it’s more complicated, and there are more nuances about how much time your boss spent talking and what his role was in the training. But, I would probably lump it in a section about opportunities for improvement and note that 5% disliked your boss’ presentation manner or something. If you’re pressed for more details, you can show him the comments after.

    11. Bagpuss*

      I think the other issue is how your boss is likely to react if you give them a heads up?
      Is he likely to try to stop you from sharing the information with the rest of the committee? if so, you could wind up being told to withhold relevant information from the committee, which puts you in a very awkward position and potentially means the committee doesn’t have information which would be relevant to their plans for the next event.
      If that is a possibility, you might want to give the full info to the chair of the committee the full information but then let your boss know about the specific comments before you share with eveyone.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I once saw customer comments summarized in a way that put the comments about a person together — so you got a negative comment about Fergus’s product right next to a positive comment about Fergus.

    13. Anon for this*

      Blah. Thanks, everyone. I knew in my gut that I had to give him a heads up, I was just hoping for a way out because knowing my boss, this will not be a pleasant conversation. I’m going to spend the weekend working on a very neutral, straightforward script and take care of this on Monday. Wish me luck :(

      1. Girr*

        If it was my boss, I’d probably say something along the lines of “Finishing up XX report, I expect to be sending it out Tuesday. We did get some feedback that I thought you’d want to know about a head of time.” Then hand over printed copies of the comments (assuming they can’t be traced back to anyone). Then I’d probably go back to my desk/leave the area.

        But I have the type of relationship with my boss where I can be quite blunt with her if needed . More so than most.

    14. Basically Nice*

      To soften the blow, how about sending a summary listing the three best comments and the three worst comments?

  6. Strawberry Fields*

    I met my friend “Lucy” at my previous job. We worked in different departments and have different backgrounds (degrees, work experience, etc.) Lucy really wants to leave the company. I was fortunate enough to get out, but Lucy is struggling. She keeps asking if she can see my resume, if I’m on LinkedIn, etc. I offered to make suggestions on her resume, made some edits, and sent her helpful tips/guides on resumes.

    We were talking and Lucy said that she was done job searching after not finding anything. Out of the blue, we were talking and I mentioned my brother. She asked what he did/where he worked and I told her. Well, turns out she found a job at his company and then asked if she could use him as a reference! They never worked together- my brother has never even met her!

    I understand that Lucy is probably frustrated and wants a new job badly- I’ve definitely been there, but I feel uncomfortable and awkward.

    1. Dove*

      I can’t blame you for feeling uncomfortable and awkward! It’s a really, really weird thing for Lucy to ask! Wanting an internal reference is understandable…but it really only *works* if the person actually knows you and is willing to serve as a reference.

      In this case, not only is Lucy not asking your brother (she’d be having you ask him for her, presumably – probably in the hopes that he’s less likely to turn down a favour for his sister than a request from a random stranger) but she’s asking for someone who *doesn’t know her* to serve as a reference.

      I’d feel completely justified in telling Lucy that you can’t ask that of your brother, and you don’t think it would help her to get a reference from someone who cannot, in truth, say he knows anything about her work or how well she’d fit what the company is looking for; that it would, if anything, hurt her chances when it’s discovered that he doesn’t know her at all. And then wish her the best of luck with the job search.

    2. Dana B.S.*

      I would just be honest: “Jon has never met you and would not be able to speak to your work ethic or abilities. It would not be a strong reference that can only reiterate what his sister has shared with him.” Now if she asks to meet him and sell herself to him – that’s still not going to be a strong reference. But if you feel comfortable connecting her with your brother, that would then be up to him. If not, then just explain that he is busy and it likely wouldn’t do much for her case.

    3. Mop Head*

      Sounds like Lucy thinks if she can use your brother as a reference it will get her a foot in the door. It also sounds crazy. She and your brother have never met, how can he be a reference? If she pushes, tell her your brother refused.

    4. Never Been There, Never Done That*

      Explain to Lucy that if her brother were used and he said he didn’t know her (why would he lie?) it would make HER look bad. I’ve been on many hiring committees over the years and it would really make me question her. My thought would be, “If she doesn’t have integrity from the get-go she probably won’t at her job either.” It would look fishy, smell fishy and be fishy.

    6. ten-four*

      Agree with everyone on the nonsense of asking him to be a reference, but potentially your brother could flag her application for review. I’ve done that sometimes with people I haven’t worked with – just a “this person is known to me but I haven’t worked with them. Take a look.” Your brother may still not want to do even that, depending on her resume/fit! If you’re willing to vouch for her overall levels of professionalism that might be an option here (but real talk, you may not be).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        If I was OP’s brother, I wouldn’t even do this. Sure, he wouldn’t be vouching for her work product since he’s never seen it and is upfront in saying so; however, he’s still essentially putting his name behind Lucy and flagging her to HR as someone worth speaking to, which could blow up in his face should she be hired on and turn out to be a disaster. If it were me in the brother’s shoes, I’d stay all the way out of it.

    7. Heat's Kitchen*

      I’d tell Lucy he can’t act as a reference as he can’t speak to her experience. But maybe offer to pass her resume on to your brother, and if he thinks she’d be a good fit he could pass it along to the hiring manager, with notes that you worked with her and vouch for her.

      1. Formerly Frustrated Optimist*

        Came here to say pretty much this. Assuming you do vouch for her… From your letter, I see that you are friends with Lucy but I’m less clear about what you thought of her work.

        If he can get her resume pulled out of the pile, that might be helpful… If it’s true that you would actually support her working at your brother’s company.

      2. Shoes On My Cat*

        This! I’ve been asked to refer strangers and it’s such an awkward position to be put into. But I did exactly the above and one friend disconnected, so I guess she wasn’t as into the friendship as she was into what I could do for her. Everyone else was cool after an awkward few minutes of recalibrating. Good luck!

    8. VA Anon*

      Could he submit her resume through the company’s employee referral program? I’ve done this before for the son of a relative’s good friend. Under “How do you know this person?” I selected “I don’t know this person.” I was just the in for getting the resume seen. I wasn’t vouching for the person’s work ethic or anything.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yeah, this. I’ve worked at companies with a referral bonus (you get $100 after the employee’s probation is up) and in those situations, people are always looking for the friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend to refer for cash. Perhaps that’s Lucy’s line of thinking.

    9. stuff*

      Totally agree she may have meant referral but not reference. I think listing him as a referral as long as you give him a heads up and he is clear about the lack of relationship is fine. Reference wouldn’t be appropriate.

      1. Strawberry Fields*

        I asked and she meant reference. She’s nervous about listing people she currently works with.

    10. Minocho*

      I had a tabletop roleplaying friend ask if I could refer him to a job. I explained I’d be more than happy to give his resume to the hiring manager, and it might help his resume get through the noise a little, but I haven’t worked with him and couldn’t be a work reference. Being clear about something along these lines might be fair. And it might just give her a better chance at good visibility, but it’s still up to her, of course.

    11. Hey Anonny Nonny*

      This is so sticky. I can say I personally *like* just about everyone I work with, however there are people at work whom I like personally but are, ah, difficult to work with (to be diplomatic). There’s the situation of “This guy is really friendly and polite, and we get along great on personal level, but I have to chase him down for the most basic of stuff and even get a little tetchy with him to give me things he’s promised me five or six times.”

  7. Tattoos at work*

    I got my first tattoo recently and I’m pretty pleased with my choice. It’s on my arm but quite small and hard to notice in passing. I plan on keeping it covered during meetings. My direct manager saw it and was quick to point out that this is a company that doesn’t care about things like visible tattoos, but my husband is still convinced that I made a poor judgment call regarding future career prospects (and he may be right based on the tattoo post from a few days ago that had some strong opinions?). I work in a corporate finance environment that is more laid back than accounting or high finance, but still has a buttoned up culture in most companies.

    I’m considering getting more down the road, but I am a little worried about putting myself in a situation where covering up always is going to be an expectation and my husband is still worried about something like this holding me back down the road. I’m a woman, so I wear a lot of sleeveless blouses in the warmer months, so male standards of year-round long-sleeved dress shirts don’t really apply. Opinions? Would you look down or consider not promoting a direct report because they have a few small and easily hidden tattoos?

    1. DataGirl*

      Tattoos are becoming more common and accepted, but some fields are still pretty conservative about it. Personally I have 10 tattoos which I mostly keep hidden, although the one on my forearm is visible if I wear short sleeves and the tops of my feet are visible if I’m wearing dress shoes. I don’t believe my tattoos have ever held me back from a promotion, and I don’t think anyone thinks I’m less competent because of them. I can say that I regret the very large calve tattoo I got when I turned 18 (dumb kid didn’t think I’d ever work in the corporate world) because it has prevented me from wearing skirts my whole career. Again, times have changed and now I probably could get away with showing a large tattoo but it’s ingrained in me that I have to keep it hidden. So my advice if you aren’t sure about your industry is to keep additional tattoos in easily covered spots.

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        I can say that I regret the very large calve tattoo I got when I turned 18 (dumb kid didn’t think I’d ever work in the corporate world) because it has prevented me from wearing skirts my whole career.

        Mostly true for me as well. I worked in human services until I was 33, and thought I always would, and a calf tattoo didn’t matter there at all. Now I’m in an environment where it really does matter, and I hate not wearing skirts in the summer.

    2. MOAS*

      To answer your question–tattoos would have absolutely NOTHING to do with my decision to promote someone.

      IME — it’s funny b/c I was having a conversation with someone about this just a little while ago. He has two full sleeves. I personally like tattoos and find them cool/attractive but one of the things we talked about was the difference between always showing it off vs it just being there. FWIW, we’re in accounting (he’s an admin though) and it’s a casual environment/business casual, so no one is expected to ‘cover up” obvious body parts (arms/lower legs/face/neck) to avoid showing tattoos. Our office manager has a full back and thigh tattoos but are really only visible if they wear a sleeveless dress where the “wing” peeks out.

      I think a lot of people tend to be very conservative/low key when they interview, and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone puts on make up t o cover up a tattoo and then let it be once they start working.

    3. Shark Whisperer*

      I think the better question is do you ever want to work for a place that would consider not promoting someone just because of a few small tattoos?

      I know that answer for me is that I would not, but for you it may be different. My current CEO doesn’t like tattoos, as he pointed out when he saw one of my tattoos, but I know for sure that my tattoos would never impede my upward mobility at this workplace.

      1. Tattoos at work*

        This is a good point. Currently, I work for a large international media company with a very left leaning reputation, which in my experience is held up inside the company as well as out. I don’t see much visible ink, but that could be the nature of the other people who sit on this floor, but I believe my manager when she says that it’s not a big deal around here. And while I do like this job and this company a lot, I can’t logically conclude I will spend the next 30 years here.

    4. AnonEMoose*

      I wouldn’t think it would be likely to be an issue unless you’re in a particularly conservative area and/or industry. Honestly, I think I know more people who have tattoos than people who don’t (of course, I’m also part of local science fiction/fantasy fandom, and in a fairly major metropolitan area, so my sample may not be representative). But unless your tattoo is something I’d find truly offensive (like a racist symbol or something), I doubt it would even register on my radar, although I don’t have any tattoos myself.

      1. Llellayena*

        This made me actually think about how many of my friends/acquaintances have tattoos and I realized that more have them than don’t! I don’t even think about it, even when I’m at work, unless the conversation specifically veers towards tattoos or I notice a new one. I got a bit of conversation at work on the henna I got on my arm, but i think that was just because it’s new. Obviously some places will be more rigid about it but I really think that we’re all leaning toward “who cares” when it comes to tattoos in the workplace.

    5. House Tyrell*

      It’ll all depend on the culture of your office. In my office, most of us have visible tattoos and it doesn’t matter. I work in a corporate office as a manager with 2 very small tattoos, only one is visible since my watch covers the other one and no one even noticed until we were talking with our VP about her husband’s new tattoo and I mentioned them. My admin and said-VP are both covered in tattoos. No one cares. I didn’t cover mine up when I interviewed so they could have rejected me if they cared over it.

      If you think you might work in a place that WILL care later, just wear cardigans over your sleeveless blouses and maybe do consider only getting tattoos in places that will always be covered at work- abdomen/back and thighs. If someone would refuse to promote or look down on someone with tattoos, then they kinda suck in my opinion and need to get over themselves.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        I have several tattoos and am in a relatively conservative workplace. I keep them covered out of respect for Grandboss, though I will cheer the day that tattoos become commonplace in conservative workplaces. In the summer it’s especially difficult as I have tattoos on my calves and biceps and would love to wear skirts and sleeveless blouses. But 3/4 sleeves and pants/long skirts are the norm and what I need to stick to as my tattoos are big and noticeable.

        If you are looking to get more ink, just be aware of the culture at each workplace and follow the dress code. If you need to keep them covered in your line of work, keep them covered. Maybe down the line they’ll become more acceptable, but in the meantime get ink where it can be easily covered. My two cents.

    6. BeeGee*

      Banking is probably the most stuffy in regards to this, however, I worked at a small investment firm that was fine with employees with tattoos. Some of the admins had visible tattoos on feet and wrists, and one had a shoulder cap tattoo (this is even with a co-owner who comes from a stricter religious background, but he didn’t have any issues with them or his own admin having them). I also had no idea that one of the partners at my last firm had a giant, full back tattoo! It just shows you how much things have changed in regards to attitudes about tattoos.

    7. iglwif*

      I absolutely wouldn’t look down on someone with tattoos, or think twice about promoting them if they deserved it.

      And in fact I have hired and promoted people who have relatively large and not easily hidden tattoos.

      I think overall tattoos are becoming less of a big deal, but of course there are industries and companies and individuals who Don’t Approve, so … it depends?

    8. Anon for this*

      We just had a reorg and a fresh crop of people that were newly promoted to management (whether within their level of competence or not, remains to be seen…) and I’ve been seeing large tattoos covering half of a person’s body that cannot be fully covered by clothes, sleeves, etc. on the newly promoted people. Granted, we are not finance, but are still corporate and there’s a high likelihood of these new managers meeting and interacting with the clients, and prospective clients, as part of their work. My conclusion – this is now mainstream at least in the sense that people aren’t likely to be denied a promotion based on that. PS I am planning on getting my first one soon. Only reason I hadn’t gotten one yet is that, for a number of years, I had large recurring expenses, which ended a year ago. Now that I’m not living paycheck to paycheck, they are in my budget and I am definitely getting one.

    9. Kiwiii*

      I think there’s been a definite, recent culture shift to not care about tattoos in the work place, but it definitely hasnt’ reached all industries. One thing that might be worth doing is next time you’re at a conference or event with multiple companies attending, see if you can see any tattoos in the crowd/the people you’re networking with. Also, maybe take note of anyone in management/leadership roles at your company (and companies you might be interested in moving to in the next 3-10 years) with tattoos. While these shouldn’t be the only factors you assess in deciding the size/visibility in future tattoos, they might be worth factoring in.

    10. Former Academic Librarian*

      I’m heavily tattooed – no face, hands or neck but otherwise I’m pretty covered. I recently transitioned from an academic environment, where no one really cared, to a nonprofit, where it turns out no one really cares. I don’t go out of my way to cover them, but I’m cold all the time, so they naturally get covered. Sometimes people ask questions, but I’ve only had one or two people at work every get rude/condescending about them, but they were just rude/condescending in general.

      Bottom line, I think you’re fine. More and more industries don’t really care about tattoos any more, and as long as you’re okay with the possibility of having to cover them up at certain times/in certain company, go forth and get more! :-)

    11. LCH*

      if you were ever at a place/event that absolutely could not tolerate tattoos, you could use dermablend or something to cover them. caveat: never tried, not sure how it looks in person vs photos.

    12. MissGirl*

      This is really region, industry, and company specific. At my job you’re going to have to cover up when meeting with clients or leadership.

    13. Jubilance*

      I think this is really industry specific – in something like law or banking that’s more conservative I’d be worried.

      I work data analytics and I also have 2 very visible wrist tattoos – no one even bats an eye. I’ve interviewed with them several times and it’s never been an issue.

    14. Joielle*

      In my experience, tattoos that could be covered by a suit (or similar) do not matter at all. I’m an attorney and my husband is a compliance officer for a household-name company, and we’re both heavily tattooed and don’t cover them in the office (so arm tattoos are visible pretty regularly, and legs sometimes in the summer). For external meetings we’d both wear a suit or at least blazer, which would cover them. It hasn’t mattered at all – both of us have easily gotten jobs, promotions, etc.

      As long as you have good judgment about wearing long sleeves for more formal meetings, I don’t think it’ll matter one bit.

      1. Joielle*

        Just to add – I guess I sort of think of them like bold jewelry, in that they’re a fashion choice that’s just a bit out of the norm and you’d probably go with something more subtle if you were, like, meeting the queen. It’s not that they’re shameful or anything, just a bit more eye catching than you might want for a formal meeting, so that’s when I’d wear long sleeves.

    15. Heat's Kitchen*

      There’s a few blog posts on this topic. I don’t think you did anything wrong. The culture on this is changing. Personally, I’d tell your husband if a company has a problem with a tasteful tattoo, you don’t want to work for them anyway.

      I just went for an interview yesterday & didn’t wear a full suit. More colored jeans with a blazer. I knew the cvompany and culture. Considered putting on really nice slacks, but said the same thing to myself. If they care that much about what I”m wearing (when it is professional), I don’t want to work for them.

    16. Seifer*

      I work in construction as a woman of color under 30 with giant tattoos. It’s, I mean, not to be stereotypical about the construction industry, but the odds are pretty stacked against me. Like… almost all of the execs are older, older men. My own director is from another Asian country that also frowns upon tattoos (as if us Vietnamese people didn’t hate them enough, according to my mother) and when I first met him and shook his hand, my forearm tattoos were just hanging out there. And well, he singled me out for a promotion. I think it’s just a lot more widely accepted now and I’ve definitely proven that it has no bearing on my quality of work, so… just keep being awesome and I think it’ll be fine.

    17. PolarVortex*

      While industry specific in some cases, honestly the world is changing quite a bit.

      I have obvious tattoos: neck and wrists are visible year round, with the collarbone, feet, others not as visible depending on the season. It hasn’t stopped me for promotions, hasn’t stopped many of my coworkers from promotions, and wouldn’t stop me from hiring/promoting unless that tattoo was offensive in some form.

      Don’t worry about the tattoos, and if your husband brings it up, I’d suggest he should be more worried about the fact you’re going to have to deal with getting paid less and are less likely to be promoted as a woman with or without tattoos.

    19. KR*

      I honestly think you’re fine if the tattoo is as small as you think. I’d wear a long/3/4 sleeve shirt, cardigan, or blazer for occasions where you’re worried it may have an impact (may be higher-ups, people who may be judgy, clients, ect) but not worry about the sleeveless shirts for your normal days. The fact that your manager was so quick to say that the tattoo is fine by your company standards gives me hope and in the future it’s easy enough to interview in something that won’t show the tattoo and to cover it until you’re sure it’s ok.

    20. Anon for this*

      I recently saw a meme that stated having tattoos should make you MORE employable, not less, because sitting in corporate meetings is just like getting stabbed repeatedly with tiny needles (paraphrase – could not find it to quote here)… and I can’t disagree with the sentiment. Tattooed people probably DO have a great amount of patience and a high pain threshold.

    21. Gaia*

      I have worked in both very progressive and very conservative fields. I have 5 tattoos and 3 are visible in some normal office clothes. They’ve never held me back and I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where they would.

      Think of what that says about an organization: that they value appearance over substance. That they buy into harmful stereotypes and that they aren’t interested in the best workers, only a particular subset. Hard pass.

    22. idontgetit*

      We need to have a separate discussion about the whole tattoos thing so y’all can explain it to me. I read AAM four times a week and there’s lotsa talk about tattoos. The work-related downside, and the vitriol directed at those judgmental ashsoles who won’t hire/promote the tattooed, I see plenty of that.

      What I truly don’t understand (sincerely, I realize I’m coming across harsh but it’s because I’m baffled) WHY THE TATTOOS? It’s clear that it’s not because you think it will help you get a job; nobody here posts about that. Obviously I don’t have any. No piercings either. Don’t dye my hair. It just use my natural body to make a living and I wonder why this is such an emotional issue. I don’t think this one post here is going to produce many responses, but feel free to surprise me, because truly, I would like to understand why this is so important to you.

      1. Former Academic Librarian*

        You don’t have to get it. It’s my body, and I will decorate it as I see fit. It’s an emotional topic because what is on my body doesn’t impact people in the slightest, and yet they have strong reactions/opinions to to the way I look and then share those strong reactions/opinions. You are allowed to think whatever you want about me; you aren’t entitled to a captive audience to share those reactions/opinions.

        And we could reverse this, and I could demand that you explain why you don’t like tattoos/piercings/hair dye. But I honestly don’t care what you do/do not do with your own body, so I suggest you not care about mine.

    23. Cats and dogs*

      I know managers for whom a tattoo is a big deal and would prevent them from promoting someone especially if they are client facing. These managers are older so maybe it is a generational thing.

  8. Alligator*

    I’ve been working in event production for the last 4 years (long hours, lots of nights and weekends, tons of variety etc…) and I’m actually incredibly excited to get away from that and back into an office-based event planning job.

    I know that I’m the kind of person who needs to take a few short decompression brakes during the day. I love reading AAM – but I’m hoping others might have recommendations for other advice blogs or safe for work websites that they like to check daily?

    1. Glacier*

      Bumping because I’d love to hear from others as well!

      (I don’t have any I follow regularly, and just turn to the news for breaks, but would love advice from the AAM reader community.)

    2. QCI*

      Digg has some interesting articles sometimes, Slate has interesting advice columns but may not be totally SFW

    3. Also a project manager*

      I use Tumblr. I found some great safe-for-work blogs within those interest areas that I visit when I need to decompress.

    4. pony tailed wonder*

      One safe for work one that I enjoy but it isn’t a daily one is the Moneyist. I like the moral quandaries it attracts and the columnist explains his thoughts and reasoning pretty well. I just wish it organized it’s past columns better so they could be searchable.

    5. 8DaysAWeek*

      My daily list:
      Captain Awkward (can sometimes be NSFW)
      Evil HR Lady
      Paging Dr. Nerdlove (can sometimes be NSFW)
      Freakonomics
      Lifehacker

      I use a blog reader so I can see headlines before opening the whole article in case it is NSFW. I use Feedly and all my blogs, including AAM, are on one page.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Seconding the use of Feedly. Even without the bonus of a preview of whether the blog you want to check has any NSFW content today (which I agree is significant), it’s to convenient to have all my reading material gathered in one place. I don’t have to remember to check all the outlets, because they’re all just there and ready for me to read.

    7. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Metafilter (and its advice subsite, Ask Metafilter) Some of the links may be NSFW, but those are labeled as such, and NSFW questions go behind a cut.

    8. sunshyne84*

      I read my local paper’s website a lot. I also save articles from around the web to my Pocket (getpocket.com) account to read later. They also have various articles on there, though may not all be safe for work, but you can probably tell from the titles. I like that I can easily save the link when I don’t have time to read something at the moment from my phone or adding it to my browser at home.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m rather fond of Archaeology (online by the Archaeological Institute of America), ScienceNordic, and some Facebook groups that I’ve found for science-minded history buffs. (Or is that history-minded science buffs?)

    10. Holly*

      Not sure if you count the news as decompression but it’s a great option – I would check out your local news sites.

    11. Anax*

      There are some cute subreddits – I enjoy /r/crossstitch, /r/knitting, /r/talesfromtechsupport

      whatthe(f***)justhappenedtoday is a good daily news digest, though of course note that there’s profanity in the URL and the title of the page – the rest is reliably SFW and links to other news sites.

      Dr Ferox on Tumblr is a vet blog which I quite enjoy.

      I also spend a lot of time on Ravelry, a knitting/crochet website – you might be able to find similar hobby forums or blogs, if there’s anything you find particularly interesting; knitting blogs tend to be cheery, pretty, and SFW, so they’re a favorite for me. Mm, yes, tell me more about your apple picking and also the cute hat you made.

    12. Okumura Haru*

      Aside form AAM, I check AllMusic, NPR, and Metacritic on a daily basis.

      Lots of good stuff, and SFW.

  9. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

    For context, I am an assistant director of government construction contracts, but my employer is not the government. My work has installed a new program on our computers “for security” that requires my cell phone for me to log into my desktop. The program texts me security codes to log in – I need two codes, two separate texts every day or again if I accidentally close a browser window. I do not work on anything that confidential (the contract amounts are all public, and the payment info is a different system).

    The company tried to bill this as making it easier to work remotely on other devices, but my position does not include remote work.

    I am annoyed that my company requires the use of my personal cell phone, which they do not pay for. (To be fair, I have unlimited texting plan so this is not costing me anything – but the company didn’t confirm that was the case, and they’re still benefitting from something I pay for). I also don’t like that a bunch of random software systems clearly have my cell phone number listed in them somewhere – like most people, I already get tons of spam calls and I try not to give out my cell phone number. When I complained, the company told me I could download an app instead that would do the same thing but not through text. That sounds worse to me.

    Is this just the way business works now? Is it considered so unbiquitous to own a cell phone and carry it all the time that there’s nothing weird about the company getting to benefit from it? This company also required me to download an app on my own phone when I started so that I could register my keycard, which annoyed me, but after it was done I deleted the app and haven’t had that issue again.

    My coworkers use their phones to download junky apps constantly, to get discounts on sandwhiches or whatever, so they don’t bat an eye at this – I suspect I’m out of step with the times.

    1. kittymommy*

      I don’t have a great answer for you except to commiserate that the security protocol sounds super-irritating!! I would hate having to that every day.

    2. 1234*

      While I don’t like it, I feel like in this age, it’s necessary/expected. For example, my work email is on my phone. I’ve had to download work apps on it as well but generally delete them after I don’t need them anymore.

      1. HBJ*

        I wonder what they’d do if you couldn’t download an app? I don’t have a top of the line phone, and it’s currently full (I tried to update an app the other day and couldn’t). I have very few apps on my phone and only extremely necessary ones. I can’t just delete a couple. So if I was asked to download an app, I’d have to juggle around trying to find a couple photos or videos I don’t need (which I’ve already done, so I wouldn’t find much) to delete to clear up space. It’d be very annoying.

        1. Flyleaf*

          I’d only be concerned if they required that I download an application like Mobile Iron that allows the company to control or access my phone.

    4. Anona*

      We have this too. I also don’t like it, but it is what it is. We at least have the option of switching the notification to whatever number we prefer, so I could have it call my (landline) company phone, for example. I haven’t done that, because I do sometimes want to use our system at home. But I commiserate!

    5. Fikly*

      This is a standard, best-practice, minimal cost security measure in today’s technology.

      Is your objection that your company is not buying you a separate cell phone for this one purpose?

      1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

        Well, it’s minimal cost to the company because they shifted all the cost onto me. But, you are basically quoting my IT guy when I raised my objection.

        1. bunniferous*

          This is just how life is now. It really is not that big a deal on that one thing. You making it a big deal might be.

          1. ArtK*

            I don’t agree. Many of the companies that I’ve worked for either provide a cell phone or reimburse some or all if they require me to use my own. Unreimbursed, they’re stealing part of OPs salary.

          2. SarahKay*

            I’m actually with “Is it weird to be annoyed…” on this one. If work wants me to do a job, work should supply me with the tools, or at the very least offer to supply them. After all, pens aren’t expensive, notebooks aren’t expensive, I could supply my own (and in fact usually do supply my own pen), but I would expect work to provide at least a basic version of them. In the same way, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Is It Weird to expect that work will provide some option that doesn’t include use of her personal phone and phone number.

            1. kittymommy*

              Same. What happens if I forget my phone at home, or don’t have unlimited text (which I actually don’t, it’s capped at 500/mth) or just simply don’t have a cell phone?? If a company is going to give only part of the tools to do my job and then expect me to take on the cost/work of getting the rest, that’s not cool.

              1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

                Most companies won’t hire you if you don’t have a cell phone, so it is moot anyway.

                2. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  That makes no sense. My IT-guy husband has no cell phone because he simply doesn’t want to be reachable by his somewhat boundaries-challenged mom at odd hours and while at work.
                  Some phone number yes. An email address yes.
                  A cell phone? Nope. Who would even know!?

                4. Gumby*

                  Eh, I know someone who refuses to get a smart phone because he is extremely privacy-oriented. Still has a flip phone but doesn’t text. He has had no problem getting jobs in tech in the SF Bay Area.

              2. Data Maven*

                This actually happened to me recently. I was out of a phone for about a week, and during that time I was unable to log on to ANY system for work (time reporting, even my email ON MY WORK COMPUTER). IT’s solution was that I went to their department (located over 3 blocks away) to verify who I am IN PERSON. EVERY DAY.
                (can you tell I’m still resentful?)

            2. Federal Middle Manager*

              “Should” provide and “does” provide are two different things. I use my personal phone for work emails and two-factor authentication. Yes, it’s work related and I’m personally subsidizing this from my money, but, no, I’m not going to make a fuss and/or give up my current salary/benefits over it.

          3. Elizabeth West*

            Bullpucky. If a company can’t or won’t cover the costs of doing business, they shouldn’t be in business.

            1. Yorick*

              But we don’t have any indication that they’re not covering the cost of doing business. This isn’t costing the commenter anything. We don’t know what they’d do if it did. And it would be pretty silly for them to give her a new cell phone for this purpose.

              I’m super annoyed by duo athentication too, but not because my company is shifting the cost to me. It doesn’t cost me a penny. I’m just annoyed that I have to get up and get my cell phone from the other side of the room whenever I want to check my email.

              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                Commenter says her plan has a max# of texts. So yes it COULD someday cost her something.

              2. Random tech co*

                Same here. This is not a big deal AT ALL, doesn’t cost me a penny, is standard tech, etc. It’s only annoying when I leave my phone in a different room and have to get up and get it.

          4. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

            It would certainly be a big thing if work required me to spend money on the cost of two texts a day (I’m on PAYG – I typically top up £5 every six weeks because I really don’t use calls/texts to contact my limited social circle) without reimbursing me.
            I wouldn’t necessarily have an issue with them using my personal cell, because I barely use it myself and wouldn’t require them to provide a separate work phone, but if it’s costing ME money to work for THEM that isn’t adequately reflected in the benefits package, this is a direction of businesses I would certainly make a big deal out of pushing back against.

        2. Yorick*

          But this isn’t costing you anything. It wouldn’t cost most people anything. The vast majority of phone plans include free texts, and even if it didn’t you’d be able to get an app and (I presume) use the company’s wifi to access it.

        3. Observer*

          Not really – in your kind of position, it’s reasonable to assume that you have unlimited text as that’s pretty much standard for basic cell phone accounts. Now, if they were requiring you to use data, even small amounts that would be different because even “unlimited” data accounts are generally not really unlimited. Also, requiring people to install software on their personal devices can create problems in a way that getting a text doesn’t.

      2. Librarian In the Academy*

        There are people who don’t have cell phones (yes, really), or who have cell phones that are not smartphones. Would the company assign a company phone to a worker without a smartphone? Then you would have some people required to use their personal smartphones and some whose smartphones were provided by the company. Doesn’t seem fair to me.

        1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

          Because of the text option, I think even an old clamshell phone would work (if it got texts). Which is better than the app-only option. I kind of got the impression they were being generous letting me use the text function instead of the app.

        2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          How so? The other people bought their own smartphones for their own reasons, and this isn’t affecting their smartphones.

          Those without smartphones would, presumably, only use them for work purposes. So this would just put them on a level playing field with those who already had smartphones.

          Seems to me much less fair to exclude some people on the grounds that they didn’t already have (and may not be able to afford) their own personal smartphones.

      3. techRando*

        There are hardware RSA tokens which can provide the same security without requiring her to own and pay for a personal cellphone. My company provides them to workers who prefer them and have no need for a corporate phone otherwise.

        1. Not really a waitress*

          Yes. I had a fob with a changing number and a 4 digit passcode in my head. It was on my keychain. So even if someone got the fob they didn’t know my passcode

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Yep, this is what Exjob did (for network logins) and THEY provided it. It was their cost and they covered it.

      4. Norm*

        No, definitely not the best practice. The best practice from a security standpoint is for the company to provide the equipment necessary to do the work. Employers would like to make it standard, but we should resist when possible.

    6. Anax*

      If two-factor authentication is needed – and it’s a good idea for many industries – the other option I’ve seen is to carry around a little keychain dongle. (It works in the same way – shows a security code which changes every 60 seconds or so.)

      I suspect that a lot of folks lose their dongles, and both they and their employers tend to find cell phones more convenient. There’s also less risk that you’ll leave it laying out, and give someone else physical access to the codes. I totally get that it’s annoying, though; I would also be exasperated if I had to use my phone for work.

      You might be able to ask if they will instead support a keychain dongle. If they’re working with a larger 2FA provider, like RSA SecurID, they may also have the dongle available as a less-popular option, or you might be able to request they acquire one, since the device itself is pretty cheap. The problem will be if there isn’t a dongle compatible with the 2FA software they’re using.

      * On whether 2FA is needed – Honestly, security risks can be way weirder than they sound. For instance, since you work with the government, someone with access to your account would have access to your emails, and probably a number of government employees’ email addresses. That information would let them craft a better spearphishing attempt, perhaps compromising a high-level government employee’s account, which would let them penetrate more systems… and so on.

      Seriously, I know it sounds ridiculous, but that’s how a lot of hacking occurs these days – many seemingly-innocuous steps which lead to a big problem. Government in particular has been more security-minded since the Russian hacking attempts in 2016, and that’s probably part of the push – they may be pressuring anyone they work with to invest in better security.

      2FA is basically about physical access – “something you know and something you have”. Since so many of these hack attempts come from overseas, limiting access to ‘people who are physically here’ or ‘people who are physically in possession of this object’ is a pretty good deterrent, so it’s being used with increasing frequency. That’s generally a good thing, but you probably do have to get used to the security codes, if not their delivery mechanism. Sorry.

      1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

        Yes, if they had given me a dongle, I wouldn’t have objected. I could have kept it locked in my desk or something maybe. I don’t actually mind the security aspect so much as the “we will be using your property to do our business” aspect. And I realize it’s a slightly irrational position, I mean, I use my car to get to work.

        1. AccountantWendy*

          I see both sides of this. I think you’re making it a bigger deal than it is, but I also think it’s reasonable to say you shouldn’t need your cell phone for work purposes. Mine died and I waited a week to replace it while I shopped around for deals – what your work do in that case? On the other hand, I have to log into my workplace’s bank account and I use my cell phone for that. It’s possible to receive a phone call on my work desk phone instead but that’s less convenient. I guess the difference is that I opted into using a personal cell phone instead of other options.

          So yeah, it’s weird to be this emotionally invested in something that isn’t costing you money. It’s not weird to calmly pursue an alternative that doesn’t require you to use your personal property for work purposes without reimbursement. But ask yourself if this is windmill is really worth tilting at.

          1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone**

            Yeah, this – so now my cell phone is a job requirement and if I need to replace it, if I lose it, if I forget to bring it to work, I’m derelict of duty? I get that most of the US is all-phones-all-the-time, but that’s not me and it was never a job requirement in the past – and it wouldn’t be one now except because they don’t want to buy dongles bc it’s easier to make this my problem.

            1. Oh No She Di'int*

              Job requirements change. Using email wasn’t a job requirement in the past, and now it is. We didn’t used to have to know HTML or social media or Excel. But now we do. Navigating considerable distances by use of an automobile at one time was not a job requirement. Now it (often) is. So yes, losing your cell phone nowadays could certainly be as problematic for your job as suddenly losing use of your car. You would be expected to replace it as quickly as possible.

        2. HappySnoopy*

          I dont think you’re being weird at all. I am shocked at the level of shrugs others are making.

          1. HappySnoopy*

            I should say, I work with two factor id all the time, but its employer supplied for work.

      2. Alianora*

        My university uses 2FA, but we have several different options. We can use our cell phones (what most people do) or use our work (desktop) phones. I appreciate the option, although I don’t think it’s that big a deal to use your cell phone – just annoying if you happen to forget to charge it one day.

        To the OP, you could also set up a Google Voice account and set that number as your 2FA number. That way, you can sign in on any browser to receive texts and you wouldn’t need your specific physical device. However, it might make you more vulnerable to the overseas hackers that Anax was talking about.

        1. Anax*

          Honestly, if my Google account was compromised I would have MUCH bigger problems than that, lol.

          In personal life, I would HIGHLY recommend using 2FA for email, online banking, data backups (like OneDrive), and online shopping on major sites (like Amazon or Steam). That code will, of course, probably go to your phone – but at least it’s not directly for work…

          1. Alianora*

            Sure. I actually have Google Voice as a backup for work 2FA and it’s not something I’m worried about because there are security measures in place for non-recognized devices. It’s just that OP’s workplace might have some policy that you have to use your actual physical device.

    7. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      We have a similar app on our phones too – it is very lightweight. As long as the company-required apps are not eating my data and driving up my phone bill, I’m fine.

      One caveat to me being okay with all this is, if your phone dies of old age or if you lose your phone, or upgrade to a new phone, you will suddenly be unable to log into your work computer (at least with the app we use, you cannot just install it and be good to go, the company has to authenticate the new phone somehow and send you a bar code to activate the app). The transition went smoothly for me when I got a new phone, but I had to coordinate the switch from my old phone to my new with the helpdesk at my work and that was kind of annoying.

      1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

        That’s a good point. Well, I’m an old fogey in that I’m not really one to carry my phone around all the time – it used to be packed away in my bag in a drawer, not out and next to me at my desk 24/7. Sometimes I even forgot it at home – guess I better never do that again. Well I’m sure I’ll adjust. And that my company will just deal with the fact that now I see all my wife’s texts haha.

    8. fhqwhgads*

      Generally the alternative to using an app or receiving the texts would be to have a physical fob with a button that generates the code(s) for you. But that’s another dongle to keep track of, to have on your keys, to not break, etc. While I sympathize at your frustration over using your personal device for a work thing, the vast majority of users at this point would prefer the method you have now: it sends it to your phone. It’s something you carry with you anyway. It’s not costing you anything. It doesn’t constitute company data on your phone so they’d have no reason to use your device in any kind of discovery. So the downsides are minimal and you’ll probably find yourself in a very small minority pushing back on this. It is probably the new normal. If you didn’t have a smartphone or a mobile phone at all, it’d be on them to provide you an alternative, like the fob, so you might try asking about that instead but it does risk seeming out of touch if you don’t need the alternative, just want it.

      1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

        Yeah, if they had offered the option of either the phone thing or the fob, I would have chosen the fob and most of my coworkers would probably have chosen the phone, so I get that it’s easier for the company to just nudge me into using my phone.

    9. Mop Head*

      With all the hacking going on, with companies and hospitals being hacked and their data held hostage, two factor authentication is more than necessary. My employer had the fobs for remote access, and last year changed to cell phone. I had to download a free app. I’m not bothered by it at all, and if they have to go to two factor authentication at work, I’ll have to do that as well. Better safe than sorry, and working at a government facility it makes a lot of sense.

    10. Spartan*

      I will second that 2 factor authentication is now the norm and that the second factor is generally someone’s personal cell phone. It changes the least and is something an employee will 99% of the time already own. The app is a good way to get around anyone who does have to pay per text etc. The cell works if you switch desks during the day log in from a laptop in a conference room or as you stated work from home.

      I understand the desire to keep a cell number private but this type of usage should in no way increase your spam calls. If it does then your company is selling employee information and that is a huge concern itself.

      1. Is it weird to be annoyed that work uses my cell phone*

        This is good to know about the privacy stuff. I don’t really understand such things.

        1. Anax*

          You may also not be aware that many spam calls have nothing to do with someone selling your number.

          There’s everything from the Chinese robocalls which seem to be just blanketing every single number in certain area codes, to voter registration details (in some states), to getting it direct from your telephone company (if their TOS allows). Unfortunately, there’s no way to completely avoid them, no matter how careful you are.

          You might also be interested in the FTC’s resources on call blocking. – https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/how-block-unwanted-calls

    11. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      I can’t speak to whether they should provide you with stuff…but I commiserate with how irritating 2FA is. Is there a way to set it to “trust” or “remember” your computer so that you only have to login with the phone once a day (at one place I worked/went to school) or once a month (where I work now). But really, I hate it so much. I’m working with no sensitive data whatsoever.

    12. Coverage Associate*

      I am pretty sure California would require some amount of reimbursement to you in these circumstances. But we’re in California and required to use an app, and when I asked about reimbursement, I was brushed off. I didn’t push it by citing the case law, though I did passive aggressively leave the case printed where the partners could find it.

    13. Kelly*

      My employer, a public university, rolled out a similar computer login process last year for employees and are starting the process soon for students. We were given two options for how to get our access codes for anytime we log onto a campus network service: an app on our phones or a key fob. Most people do not have their phone bills paid for by our employer.

      There were also concerns raised too about if we installed the app on our personal phones, would those be subject to open records requests. The state that I work in gets a lot of open records requests, and the attitude towards filling them varies depending on various factors, including the agency/department, and their feelings towards the group or individual requesting them. Some people who are more aware that anything that is in your work email is subject to open records requests are very wary of using it for personal, non work business, myself included. I know I’m not the only person who also has used personal email for work things that are more social in nature as well, because there have been open records requests made to prove how little state workers actually work.

      Most people ended up getting the fobs because of those concerns and some issues with the app.

    14. Jules the 3rd*

      Yes, cell phone use is so normalized (in the US at least) that it is assumed you have one, that your texts are free, and will be using it for 2 factor authentication. The additional apps (slack or email or sheets) are much less common so there’s usually a lot more formality around them.

      If you want to get around giving your personal cell to employers, set up a google phone number. It’s free, and you can forward it to your cell, then delete it whenever.

    15. Michelle*

      I would be annoyed as well. We got a new payroll system last year and they sent out the registration info via email. Step one was to download an app*. I called HR and asked if their was a desktop version because I don’t like to download apps on my phone. You would have thought I asked her for a kidney or something. She very clearly was irritated I didn’t want to use the app. Turns out I wasn’t the only one and they ended up installing an iPad for staff to use to punch in/out if we didn’t want to use the app.

      *The app had to have access to a bunch of stuff on the cell phone and I don’t want my employer to have access to my personal stuff. Nothing scandalous but why do they need to access my system settings or photo gallery? They have nothing to do with my job .

      1. Nicotene*

        That’s how I always feel. “You have to use this app to activate your keycard” – oh, okay. Wait, it wants access to my contacts and call records and location data even when I’m not in use? And there’s no opt-out or don’t agree, it’s just – download this on your personal device, and don’t talk back, minion.

        1. blackcat*

          At least on an iPhone, you can go into settings and disable that access after the fact. But it may prevent the thing from working.

          But yeah, installing an app that grants the company access to my location data, photos, and contacts would be a hard no.

      2. Just browsing*

        And this is why I don’t even have work email on my personal phone – it would require providing sufficient access to wipe out the phone data without prior notice. No, thanks!
        P.S. My way of avoiding various “required” apps is to have a Windows Phone. I still have my personal email, navigation, camera, music, a few games, entire Office suite, and other stuff I care about, but when someone wants me to install something: Do you have a Windows version? No? Oh, what a shame, I guess I can’t use it then.

        1. miss_chevious*

          Yep, this is why I carry a work phone and a personal phone. Under no circumstances am I creating even the slightest possibility that my personal phone could be reviewed, cloned, seized or even looked at by my employer (or anyone who sued them). I really love my job, but work is work and personal is personal.

      3. Fikly*

        I don’t know about iPhones but with Androids you can have a work profile and it’s isolated from accessing all your personal stuff.

    16. Llellayena*

      I’d be annoyed by this in part because I regularly (and deliberately) leave my cell phone at home. But I also relatively recently had a phone that would charge me for EACH text sent or received (no text plan, flip phone). This is more unusual now, but not unheard of. They need to provide an option that does not use your personal phone, even if they do still encourage the phone use because it’s easier.

    17. AGirlHasNoScreenName*

      2-factor identification (using something you know, like a password, in addition to something you have, like a phone [app or text or call]) is both increasingly common and necessary for adequate account security. If you are uncomfortable with using your personal device, ask if there’s a separate fob that can handle it, or, barring that, if it can be forwarded to your work phone.

    18. Alex*

      My company instituted this, and I actually had to go out and buy a smartphone for it because I didn’t have one. It was assumed that I did, and when I said I didn’t, I was laughed at and told to get with the program.

      So yes I think this is how things are now.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      They would have a problem with my husband who has refused to get a cell phone. And honestly only my most recent phone is not a flipphone!

      1. Observer*

        The fact that your prior phones were not smart phones is not really relevant. What is relevant is what the CURRENT situation is.

    20. sunshyne84*

      Can you use a Google voice number? But then again Google would have your number. Idk…might just be something you have to deal with.

    21. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      This is one of those Hills To Die On for me, because I really don’t want personal devices and accounts subject to discovery if we ever get sued, so I don’t do work stuff from them. Also, I don’t carry a smartphone and have a pay-as-you-go flip phone, so I’m not interested in getting work-related calls or texts on it unless they’re going to reimburse me.

      I eventually convinced work to dig out an old iPad and install the app on that instead. Since it’s their iPad, I’m happy to install anything they want on it. Sure, it’s stupidly large and heavy to carry around compared to a dongle (which is what I’d been trying to get), but I’m not sure if IT is too cheap to buy the dongles or if our 2fa doesn’t support them and I’m not paid enough to do in-depth research for IT about how 2fa works.

      2. IT tattletale*

        Cheap. Dongles are some of if not the oldest form of 2FA. DUO Security is like THE name in the space right now so I’m assuming that’s your provider and they support like 7 different ways of 2FA from USB dongles to mobile push or text to biometrics. Push notifications are the cheapest model, followed by phone call then SMS, because the phone and SMS options require your company purchase a pool of telephony credits. The dongle-based methods I assume come with additional upfront cost for the dongles.

        Source: work in IT, previously worked in IT purchasing, all in companies too cheap for dongles.

    22. blackcat*

      The app thing is weird and overkill, but 2FA is really necessary from a security standpoint and I understand why they do it.

      If you don’t mind me asking, what software do they use for this? It’s possible that you can actually use your desk phone (set to call, and then push a button when you answer) depending on the system.

    23. Observer*

      I understand your concern about having your number shared. But if your people are at all competent, the numbers in this system are going to be guarded like their bank information. Because those numbers are THE key to everyone’s accounts – cell phone number can be hijacked, so no one wants anyone to know what number is being used for authentication.

      TLDR; Spam is nasty, but it’s extremely unlikely that this is going to be a source for more spam.

      1. nicotene*

        haha yeah but i mean, c’mon every day there’s something in the news about a new terrible data hack from the most seemingly secure places – credit card companies, the federal office of personnel, and yes banks!

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, but spammers are not the ones hacking these systems. People who want a lot more valuable data *or* who want ransom. People’s cell numbers are not what they are after.

    24. Clever Name*

      I use my cell phone for work. I take work calls on it, send/receive emails, I can enter my time, I communicate via text and app with IT. I don’t mind because my company reimburses me for the cost of my cell phone. I would be annoyed if I had to use my phone at this level with no reimbursement. I’m not sure if I’d bother for 2 texts a day, but maybe you could ask for a partial reimbursement? The worst they can do is say no, right?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Have you read any of Alison’s posts (& the followup comments) about a lot of work access having the right to wipe your phone because of company data? I wouldn’t summarize it well. Just…if you haven’t, go looking in the archives for it.

        1. Observer*

          This is not the kind of situation where that would apply. Being able to wipe your data comes up when you are using actual company data or systems such as email or files. The 2FA stuff is different. Especially when you are using text as your second factor, there is no way for the company to use it to wipe the phone, nor would your phone be considered to have company data.

    25. Little Beans*

      We have this at my workplace but there are options for people who don’t have smartphones or don’t want to use them for work – they can either use an office landline and get a phone call, or they can check out a little device that looks like a pager. But to be honest, I don’t know anyone at our organization who uses either of those – literally everyone just uses their cell phone. Also, our system allows us to save our log-in information for up to 30 days, so we only have to log in once a month, or whenever you clear your browser cache.

      So I don’t think your company is being unreasonable by requiring this extra security measure (from what I’ve heard, it sounds like having a second-step verification is becoming pretty standard security protocol), but I don’t see why they didn’t choose something that had an alternative.

    26. TootsNYC*

      I have unlimited texting plan so this is not costing me anything
      You can also probably get those codes by accessing the corporate WiFi network.

      Our company has this too, and there are people who feel like you do.

      It really doesn’t bother me that much.

      After all, I use a stray envelope here and there; I’ve snagged Post-it notes for home. I make phone calls for my personal matter on company time. I come in late because of the exterminator and don’t take time off. (I also work at a place that has giveaways of promotional materials, and I’ve gotten some neat and useful stuff from that.)

      I use that same authenticator for personal things, so it’s not even that I am exposed to some security risk from the app itself.

      It’s such a small thing, and I get so many similar perks (museum memberships, etc.) that I don’t consider it to be too much to ask.

      1. TL -*

        I won’t even log into my work email on my phone or personal computer unless it’s really, really urgent and rare. And I log right back out afterwards – my phone is my personal device and my personal business and I have never been paid enough to justify having work intrude on it. If I need that badly to be reached out of office hours, they can pay for a phone.

        Same for the 2F authentication; they can pay for a fob instead of my phone. I don’t ever want my company looking at my phone, having access to my phone, or feeling like they have ownership of any of my phone’s contents for any reasons. Nor do I want my phone used for company business.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        I see your point about the shoe being on the other foot. We don’t always appreciate some of the free things we get from employers.

        Have you specifically checked with your employer and confirmed that they agree with you that the stray envelope or Post-It note here and there is OK for you to take for personal purposes? And that your making personal calls on their time is also OK? If not, that could be considered petty larceny and time theft — people have gotten fired for that.

        And that they’re OK with paying you — and not charging you leave — for time you weren’t working because of the exterminator (or whatever other reason)? (Or do you instead work later or otherwise make up the time?) If not, that could be considered time card fraud — a firing offense.

        More than a few people have been surprised with pink slips for things like this.

    27. Norm*

      “Is it considered so ubiquitous to own a cell phone and carry it all the time that there’s nothing weird about the company getting to benefit from it?”

      Many employers would like this to be standard, but it’s abusive and unwise. If they want you to use a cell phone for work, they should provide it.

      1. Doc in a Box*

        I agree. I’m a physician, and when I was in med school and residency (2007-2016) the standard was to have a pager. When you were done for the day, or if you were going to be on vacation, you could call the page operator and tell them to sign you out to a covering pager until XYZ date. If you needed to page someone, you’d go to an internal paging website and type in their name, and you could see if they were available or signed out, with an option to page the covering person if you wanted.

        The academic medical center where I now work as an attending physician has decided that pagers are too old-school (to be fair, they kind of are) so we are required to use our personal cell phones as our pagers. There is an app which has replaced the internal paging website, except there is no way to sign out or assign coverage. I’ve gotten paged when out of the country on vacation, with no access to the electronic medical record and no way to tell the person paging me they need to contact someone else. Really frustrating, and potentially dangerous for patient care.

  10. The Photographer's Husband*

    Hello everyone,
    I come bearing a work story from my recently-retired mother that I found amusing and made me see her in a bit more of a bad-ass light than I’m used to (she is usually a very quiet and ‘go-with-the-flow’ type of personality), so thought I’d share for entertainment value.

    The time and setting are around the mid-1990s at a small-city hospital in the Midwest. I was too young to pay attention to the intricacies of where my parents went every day. My mom was an RN switching from nursing to an IT role within the hospital.

    Her start on the IT team was rough, considering she was seated not just in a different area, but an entirely different building from the rest of the IT team for the duration of her training for reasons unknown. Those weeks were lonely and difficult as she said she often walked the riverside during lunch wondering why the heck she had chosen this new career path.

    So here she is, stuck on her own in a different building and running through hour after endless hour of training videos and documentation, getting used to the hospital’s (even then) antiquated systems, waiting to be moved to the rest of the IT team as a full-fledged member. That’s when she noticed something very strange.

    See, part of the training she was undergoing was learning how she could impersonate other user’s accounts as an administrator in the system. Usually this is to help with troubleshooting so that the IT Helpdesk can see exactly what the user is seeing. She was practicing the process of account impersonation when she discovered that somebody had been impersonating her own account. And not just anybody.

    It was the CIO of the hospital.

    So she started taking screenshots of the access logs and when her account had been impersonated. She started documenting the files he was looking at while he pretended to be my mom. Why would a C-level executive who already has access to anything he might need to see be impersonating a newbie in training? Because he was looking at stuff that even he shouldn’t be seeing – HIPAA-violation stuff. Apparently his wife was staying at the hospital and he was not only abusing his access to the system to see files he shouldn’t, but he was using my mom’s account to cover it up in case anyone happened to notice. On the surface level, it would only look like my mom’s account had viewed them and wouldn’t show that her account had been impersonated – only she could tell that.

    She wrestled with how to deal with this situation for a few days, talking with my dad about whether or not she should just let it go and pretend she didn’t notice, or who she should bring this to. Finally, she reached out to a trusted manager and said she had a ‘delicate situation’.

    Thankfully, the manager knew exactly what to do and due to my mom’s excellent documentation, was able to raise the issue with the relevant authorities. After a short investigation, the CIO was promptly disgraced and fired, and my mom avoided becoming a future scapegoat.

    But that’s not quite the end – This (now ex) CIO also happened to live in the same neighborhood as us (small Midwest city, remember). The next block party was quite awkward. Evidently the only contact he made was to grumble, “I wouldn’t have done anything, you know.”

    3. irene adler*

      Wow!
      Not impressed with the CIO’s “I wouldn’t have done anything, you know.” excuse.
      See, if your Mom had done nothing, and someone discovered “her” HIPAA-violation activities, would the CIO have come to her defense? Or would he just let her take the fall for his crime?
      Way to stand up for yourself, Mom!!

      1. The Photographer's Husband*

        Right? Sure you wouldn’t have done anything with your job and reputation on the line. I’m proud of her :-D

    6. CatCat*

      So glad your mom found that!

      Evidently the only contact he made was to grumble, “I wouldn’t have done anything, you know.”

      What utter BS. He already had done something unethical and illegal!

      3. Lison*

        So if it had come up in an audit that “I” a neighbour, had looked at files I had no work reason to look at you would have done nothing? Good to know.

    7. WellRed*

      This week, our local paper reported on a hospital that harassed an employee with a disability, to the extent that no less than three employees accessed her medical records. They also had a wall of shame, a collage of sorts of patients, genitals, hygiene, etc. Even after this same employee complained to the hospital about the wall (and the other stuff) it took four months to have it removed. Way to stay classy, hospital personnel.

          1. JJ Bittenbinder*

            Wow. Wasn’t just your local news that reported it! It’s all over the AP. Pretty disgusting behavior by those employees.

      2. The Photographer's Husband*

        Oh my word, that is awful. That’s such a strange dichotomy of being in a career where at least I’d assume one is motivated by the care and well-being of the people you see and just absolute trashy, judgmental behavior.

    9. Jules the 3rd*

      The funny thing is, if he had used his own account, it’s unlikely anyone would have noticed.

      But using ani IT person’s account was super dumb, he should have used accounts that had valid reasons for viewing the records.

      1. Lana Kane*

        If the hospital has even the most basic safeguards in place, an employee accessing their relative’s chart would have immediately been noticed.

    11. SaraV*

      I worked at a large health care provider in the mid-00’s in IT. We had a higher level exec of the company go in for some type of minor procedure, and there were some firings because employees were looking at the exec’s medical record that had no business being there. (Different wing/floor)

      HIPAA will take you down hard.

  11. Yogurt pants*

    I wrote about George on 9/6 open thread, and had a few (uneventful and quiet) follow ups.

    This is what happened last week–

    George was visiting the office before going on vacation. Company policy dictates that any manager going on vacation has to have a backup available, ie a supervisor. When asked about George’s backup, they said “oh Edwin will do it.”

    Edwin is on my team. He reports directly to me. He’s friends with George (since they were peers and started around the same time). When George said this, we were all like…wat?

    Right after hte meeting, I had a conversation with the other senior mgr (my direct mgr is on leave) and they agreed that George shouldn’t use Edwin, they need to use their own team.

    I spoke to Edwin later and he asked how the meeting went (the meeting time had changed las t minute and Edwin had a prior obligation so could not attend as he normally does); I went over everything and mentioned “by the way, if anything for George’s team comes in, please redirect them to Britney etc.”

    Maybe it’s worth mentioning–Edwin is a great employee and asset to my team. I trust him, so I know it wasn’t a gossip sesh as much as just two friends talking about their day.
     
    I had to leave the office at that point, and returned the next day.
    While I was out, apparently Edwin and George went to lunch and Edwin mentioned what I said. George went to OUR DIRECTOR and put their spin on things.
    I came back the next day and the sr mgr I spoke to updated me –he said that he did talk to George and George had backtracked and said “oh I only needed Edwin for [specific software that only managers  have access to use]. Otherwise, Britney will be stepping in.” I dropped it at that point.

    In all this, what bothers is that GEORGE DIDNT EVEN ASK ME IF HE COULD USE EDWIN. It’s like I was nonexistent, a nothing.
    For more context–Nancy, another manager of a team in our dept, was out for a day and asked if she could use Edwin as a backup, and her back up had an impt dr appt. I said yea sure, it’s JUST ONE DAY.

    Anyways, things are quiet now–George went on vacation, nothing really came up on his team, so it didn’t affect Edwin or myself. Director didn’t say anything to me or to my direct mgr when he came back from leave, so it’s safe to say that George’s conversation with her didn’t have the effect I was worried it would (being that director would come down hard on me for “not being a team player” etc etc.)

    1. Shoes On My Cat*

      Ugh. Not cool. When George comes back, is having a brief “I need you to check in with me before assigning my direct reports to cover for you. Can you do that? Great, thanks”

      1. Yogurt pants*

        George came back this week and said everything was fine, Britney was able to handle it all.

        I was advised to drop it so if I were to bring it up again, it would look bad on me.

        I can’t block a friendship nor I have any desire to. Even Edwin was like “yeah its weird why George asked me and not Britney or anyone else on his team.”

        I’m trying not to be so emotional about it. I mean with all that said and done, G isn’t as bad as other people I’ve encountered and I realize my situation could be way worse. but it’s still annoying.

  12. so anon for this*

    How much would you judge your coworker for taking their cell phone in the bathroom stall?

      1. NotAPirate*

        I should clarify I would judge you for using it. I cannot stand people loudly talking on the phone in restrooms. I don’t care if your caller has said their fine with hearing background noise, I did not consent to your caller listening to me use the bathroom.

    2. 1234*

      Not at all? However, if they were loudly playing games and having a full on conversation then yes lol. I would purposely flush loudly.

      While my coworkers don’t do what I mentioned above, others who share our bathroom will. One time, someone took a phone interview in there!

      1. Mbarr*

        Seconded. Phone conversations in bathrooms are icky.
        That being said, I might have stronger opinions if I could see how long a person has been in the bathroom with their phone… But at none of my companies have I been able to see how long a person is in there. Right now, if someone disappears, I assume they’ve gone to the washroom, then walked to the kitchen, etc.

    3. Lyudie*

      Phones disappear at offices. I keep mine with me pretty much the whole time I’m at work. *Talking* on the phone while in the stall I will judge people for, but not just taking the phone (or browsing/texting) in the stall.

      1. Admin Formerly Known as Actor*

        +1. My immediate reaction to this question was, “Not at all? That’s how you get your phone swiped from wherever you left it.” Sure, if someone’s having a full blown conversation it’s a little rude/annoying, but just taking it with them to keep it with them or do a quick text/social media browse while in a stall isn’t a problem IMO.

      2. The Original K.*

        I had the same thought. I’ve worked in places where I couldn’t lock stuff up and I’d take everything of value with me everywhere I went, including the stall. I’ve seen phones left outside stalls on the sink and I’ve always thought that to be inviting trouble – it would be nothing at all to just walk out with one left out so carelessly.

        I would not talk on the phone in the stall, but I would, have, and will likely continue to bring my phone into stalls with me.

    4. MatKnifeNinja*

      I’d judge him if he is on his phone more than doing his actual work. Especially if I have to pick up the slack.

      Restrooms are gross. I personally wouldn’t be talking or playing Candy Crush on the toilet. I’ve seen people talk on the phone while doing their business, and walk out not washing their hands.

      What can you say?

      I’d probably think yuck, and make a mental note not to use his phone unless I wipe it down lol..

    6. kittymommy*

      I don’t even think it would register with me and if it did, I wouldn’t think anything about it.

    7. Anongradstudent*

      None? I did not realize this was a taboo. I usually bring it with me to the bathroom (usually listening to podcasts so I don’t have to hear others). If you wash your hands and regularly sanitize the phone, I don’t know why you should care.

    8. Natalie*

      Unless they were having a loud conversation as they walked into the bathroom, I doubt I would even notice. Nor do I care.

    9. Dasein9*

      I would be more likely to judge someone for paying attention to what coworkers are doing in the bathroom stall.

        1. Random tech co*

          But they didn’t ask if you’d judge a person for talking loudly on the phone in a bathroom stall. They said bring the phone into the bathroom. Totally different questions.

    10. ElizabethJane*

      Massively, but only because I work in a super relaxed environment and nobody cares if you’re on your phone, so a bathroom is a weird place to go. There are phone rooms. And offices. And empty conference rooms. And hallways. And a lounge. Pick literally anywhere else.

      1. Clisby*

        But why would you deliberately *not* take your phone into a bathroom stall? I mean, my phone is in my pocket. I always take it with me when I go into a bathroom stall. I never use it in the bathroom. I’d be very hesitant to leave my cellphone on my desk when I went to the bathroom.

    11. Anonymous Educator*

      What are you judging them for? People do that all the time.

      As long as the co-worker doesn’t touch the phone after wiping certain parts but before washing her hands, and as long as the co-worker isn’t talking loudly on the phone, I don’t see what the issue is.

      1. so anon for this*

        Well, the punchline is the coworker taking their phone in the stall… is me. I ran into a higher-up I don’t see often on the way and she was being very complimentary about my recent accomplishments and I was trying to appear professional but the whole time I was thinking “she must see my phone and be judging me. This is horrible. Why don’t dresses have pockets? Oh, this is terrible. I’m going to freak out all day about this.”

        (I do not talk on the phone in the bathroom stall and wish others wouldn’t either. That is my personal bridge too far.)

        2. Admin Formerly Known as Actor*

          I wouldn’t sweat it, though I totally understand the impulse to. I doubt the higher-up even noticed, or if they did it was a half-acknowledgment that you were carrying one, not an absolute judgment on your character or anything. Especially if they were being complimentary, I doubt holding a phone while near a restroom would tarnish your reputation!

        3. Mr. Shark*

          heh, well, I’m obviously not the right audience for this, because I take my phone with me in the bathroom stall all the time (and I think most people at my work do as well), but I work in manufacturing, so no one is wearing a dress or anything without pockets (most have jeans on).

          So your whole question puzzled me, until you got to the punchline and the fact that you were wearing a dress and therefore had no pockets.

          But I wouldn’t judge anyone for that. I think by now it’s pretty standard (despite some of the reactions to your question). Yes, it’s probably pretty disgusting when you think about it, but you wash your hands and clean off your phone regularly. There are germs everywhere.

        4. JJ Bittenbinder*

          HA! So many people assumed you were judging others for this.

          I’m willing to bet your higher up didn’t notice and, if she did, it didn’t register as anything out of the ordinary.

        5. TootsNYC*

          I have my work badge in a pocket on the back of my phone.And I also have work Slack and work email. So I always take my phone everywhere I go.

          I bet she didn’t even notice.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I just… where do you put the phone before you wipe, until you wash your hands? In your pocket? My pockets don’t hold my phone well. I occasionally take my phone into the restroom, but I put it on the “purse table” by the door until I’m done.

        1. so anon for this*

          I put the case on the toilet-paper holder and afterwards grab it with my non-dominant hand.

        3. no poo on phone, we wipe with toilet paper*

          I put the phone down to wipe (on the toilet paper holder or the trash thing which has a flat lid) and then carry the phone out with me to wash my hands.

        4. Meepmeep*

          Best thing I ever got was a phone case with a cross body shoulder strap. I haven’t had to put down my phone on anything yucky ever since.

    12. Irish*

      Uh, a lot. Everyone is using their phone on the toilet these days, but that is NOT the place to be talking to someone in that shared space. It’s weird and gross.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        it’s one thing if they’re having conversations, but maybe they’re just playing with it or have it because they don’t like leaving it at their desk

    13. Shark Whisperer*

      It depends on if they are taking their phone to make a phone call or just to check AAM while pooping. I haaate when people talk on the phone in public bathrooms, but as a person who has IBS, I enjoy some entertainment while doing my business.

    14. iglwif*

      taking their phone into the stall? Or talking on it while in there?

      In the first case, I probably wouldn’t even notice. In the second case, yeah, not cool.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        ditto. I take my phone with me in a pocket, where it usually stays for the duration, because I’ve ended up accidentally locked in a cubicle before now and it was an unpleasant experience.
        I would expect anyone coming in and hearing me on the phone (“yeah, hello, facilities? the lock’s broken and I can’t get out”) would probably forgive me having a stall conversation though.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Can we enshrine this as as The Only Acceptable Phone Call to Make From a Bathroom Stall? (I mean, maybe alongside calling a friend or relative to drive to work with backup clothes for you because There Has Been an Incident.)

    15. LCH*

      taking it in? none. using it for a phone call? so much.

      my mom is currently in the hospital so my phone is on me at all times just in case. so i guess it also depends on what sort of conversation the person is having in the stall.

    17. Librarian of SHIELD*

      It depends. Is this person just going to the bathroom for 2 minutes and planning to check Twitter or keep listening to their podcast while they’re in there? No judgment whatsoever. Is this a person who takes their phone to the bathroom for 45 minutes at a time when they’re totally unavailable for actual work? Probably some judgment.

    18. Echo*

      Yeah, are they taking calls in the stall or not? At the risk of being indelicate, if I know I’m going to need to be in the bathroom stall for a while I will bring in my phone so I can read, and I would not judge someone for doing that in the least. Taking calls in the bathroom is gross and rude.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      With all that’s going on in the world, I could not possibly care less about whether someone takes their phone into the bathroom with them.

    20. zora*

      I take my phone to the bathroom with me every time. Mostly because if someone calls my cell (we sometimes use cell phones at work) I don’t want my desk neighbors having to listen to it vibrating over and over until it goes to voicemail. Or if texts go off or some other annoying noise.
      But also because I am looking at it on the way to and from the bathroom, it’s a good time to check Instagram, reply to personal texts.

      And all of my coworkers do the same thing.

      I don’t see why this is weird that people take phones into bathrooms anymore, it’s so normal to me.

    22. TXAdmin*

      no judgement for taking it, massive MASSIVE judgement and any noises I can manage if they talk on the phone in the stall. I absolutely HATE when people talk on their phone in a non-private bathroom.

    24. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      No judgment for taking it. I do that all the time.

      Having loud conversations? Yes.

    25. littlelizard*

      Not at all on a personal level, but we have a specific policy against doing that, so I’d be curious to see what would happen if they got caught…

        1. AnonoDoc*

          Can’t speak for commenter above, but it does freak me out that people are bringing CAMERAs into the bathroom.

    27. Michelle*

      Normally I don’t use understand why people want to take their phones to bathroom but…last week 2 staff members got locked in a bathroom and couldn’t get out, so they had to call for help! The first person was stuck for over 45 minutes and the facilities guys had to stick screwdrivers and a chisel under the door and she had to beat out the pins that go in the hinges to get out. So she literally had to take the door off the hinges!!

      The second woman was only stuck for about 5 minutes. The facilities guy had take the door handle off to get her out. They have changed the locks so, hopefully, no one gets locked in again.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        (been there, done that, made the t-shirt from loo roll! Lesson learned and phone always comes with me now – feel free to judge accordingly).

        Incidentally, as an addendum, our toilets also have motionsense lights which DO NOT PICK UP MOVEMENT IN THE STALLS. Working late, had a bout of tummy trouble, and was plunged into darkenss after approx 7 minutes. That was a fun experience too (/sarcasm). Yay for torch app.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        And what if you work in a restaurant or somewhere else with a walk-in freezer, and your job requires you to go in there?

    28. Karen from Finance*

      I wouldn’t judge them at all for taking their phone. I do this. It’d be different if they were having a phone conversation, then yes it’s weird.

      1. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

        I search for “poop” to see posts I commented on and I am amazed at how many other posts have “poop” in them. I don’t judge for taking a phone into the stall with you. I also don’t wait until they are done with their conversation to flush. If they are willing to talk in there I don’t have to be quiet.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          For a minute there I didn’t pay attention to your username and was very confused. are they just constantly posting about poop? lol

    29. Oxford Comma*

      If they’re just taking it into the stall with them, well, that could be gross depending on if/how they’re holding it, but I get why people do that. Phones are expensive and get swiped.

      If they’re having actual conversations, I would judge them a lot. And probably make a point of flushing.

    30. Okumura Haru*

      Not at all.
      I understand the need for some privacy, and if they’re OK with the possibility of gross background noise, I can be OK with their phone call.

    31. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have infinite lack of respect for the woman who walks halfway across the building to use the restroom near me for her personal phone calls. Loud ones.
      That said, I do bring my phone in because I don’t want to be the person whose phone rings while she’s gone and drives people up the wall in the open office.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        PS I highly recommend a waterproof phone for just this reason. I get to wash it off.

    32. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t see it as a huge deal. Maybe it’s just so it doesn’t get stolen, not to use while in there.

    33. Apostrophina*

      I’ve been known to do this when I’m waiting for an important phone call (medical tests or house-related, say) in case the phone rings. I wouldn’t have the resulting conversation *in* the bathroom, though. (One coworker was so famous for doing this that now, years after their retirement, people still know what I mean when I say “I heard a ringtone in the bathroom and thought someone was pulling a [Coworker].”

    34. CastIrony*

      I used to take my phone into the restroom, but not anymore because I don’t want bacteria and waste matter on it.

    35. tamarack and fireweed*

      Uh, we walk around with our cell phones, and I’m not leaving it out next to the washbasins! Where am I supposed to put it?

  13. SleepySally*

    Any advice on dealing with people constantly talking over me in meetings. I’m a manager, one of the only females in my department, and when I go to higher level meetings a few specific people will talk over me constantly or answer questions addressed to me that have nothing to do with their department. It’s incredibly demoralizing and frustrating!

    1. Peaches*

      Do you correct them in the moment? If you haven’t already, the next time one of the offenders talks over you. I would let him finish what he is saying (only for the sake of people hearing what you’re about to say next!) When he finishes, say “In the future, please do not interject when I’m talking. I’m happy to answer any questions or hear you’re concerns when I’m finished.” After you’ve explained this once, THEN if/when it happens again, cut him off in the moment and say “excuse me, as I’ve mentioned before, please do not interrupt me when I’m speaking.”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This is what I do, or I keep talking over the person who tried to interrupt me. It shuts down that behavior real quick.

    2. Cucumberzucchini*

      Can you try to keep talking, so when someone talks over you don’t stop talking. Nobody will be able to understand what’s being said, but I’ve found that to be helpful to signal to people I won’t be talked over and it may stop the behavior. Also try talking a little louder, don’t yell, but your voice may be soft and that may make it easier to talk over. Also make sure you sound confident when you speak. You can also try saying, “Oh wait, I wasn’t finished,” and then continue with your point.

    3. Dasein9*

      Enlisting an ally might help too. Someone to say, “Wasn’t that question for Sally?” or “As Sally was saying. . . .?” can be very effective. (And you may have to run similar interference for them sometime too.)

    4. ElizabethJane*

      First try to set yourself up ahead of time “I know this topic is likely to raise a lot of questions so please let me get through all of the context first – I might give you the answers there!” but if you’re not the one presenting this can be awkward.

      Otherwise I wait until they are done and then say “Please let me finish” and start again. And if it’s one person have a conversation and call them out.

    5. Auntie Social*

      “Stop sign” hand up, directed at miscreant: “Fergus, I’m still speaking.” We also had a really bad interrupter of women and my boss said “Seymour, I don’t see your name on the agenda today, you’re not presenting anything are you? Fine. Sue, you were saying. . .” If at all possible, with the chronic interrupters, finish your report and then announce a break—everyone will be more interested in coffee than in Fergus’ comments.

    6. LKW*

      When it’s egregious or very aggressive, I will continue talking but change to “And although I understand you have things to say, I would like to finish talking.” Sometimes I’ll say “I’m going to ask you to stop talking until I’ve had an opportunity to finish.”

      I just don’t pause or stop.

    7. Existentialista*

      If you’re trying to present material to the group, I recommend standing at the front of the room. It puts you in “teacher mode” so people respect your requests to hold their questions and comments better, and you can point and control who’s speaking a bit better.

      If they are talking over you in general conversation, it’s trickier, but raising your hand can work to gain the floor, and then also whoever is running the meeting will usually say “Anything else?” at the end, which is another time you could grab the floor and make your point.

    8. OhBehave*

      If you don’t feel you can continue talking while someone talks over you, stare at them in disbelief. Once they have said their piece, continue talking…”As I was saying before being interrupted..”

      Someone thinks he has all the answers as he pats you on the head (just my imagination run amok) “Fergus – I believe that question was concerning my dept. I need to correct some info you provided.”

    9. PollyQ*

      Do it right in the moment. If they interrupt while you’re talking, don’t even stop, say “Excuse me, I’m not done yet.” and then keep talking. If someone answers a question, say “Excuse me, I believe that question was addressed to me.” and then go right into answering it. Be very calm, very matter-of-fact, and try not to let it distract you from what you were saying.

    10. Hey Anonny Nonny*

      At an Engineering strat meeting recently, of which there were three women in a sea of 20+ men (ah, tech!), I was pleasantly surprised and happy to see one engineer whom, upon being interrupted, very firmly but politely said, “I wasn’t done talking yet, please let me finish what I was saying, thank you” and then segued right back into what she was presenting. The other two women continued to get shut down, but the initial engineer did not get interrupted again over the course of three days.

      I think the talking-over and interrupting is so socially ingrained that people (men, generally) do it without even thinking. It surprises and gives them a hard reset when a woman firmly pushes back. And as the engineer demonstrated, it doesn’t have to be in a SHUT YOUR FACE, I WAS TALKING, YOU RUDE JACKASS manner to get the point across.

      Unfortunately, I was far more caustic in my response to being talked over. I have a speech impediment that means I literally cannot raise my voice (the “outshouting technique”). People talk over me all the time, usually men, and since I can’t raise my voice over theirs, I get shut down into silence. It’s incredibly frustrating, particularly in a situation where I’m asked a direct question in a meeting, I start to answer, and someone (again, generally a man) will talk over me and that’s it. I’m shut up.

      On this particular occasion, I was talking to my exec at my desk when – while I was in mid-sentence – one of his directors walked up and began speaking to him about something unrelated, totally cutting me off in the process. I responded by swiftly leaning back in my chair and putting my arms behind my head. When they both looked at me (attention caught by the movement), I told the director, “No, really, go ahead. Clearly whatever you have to say is far more important than what I was talking about, right?”

      He went red, my exec laughed, the director apologized profusely and he’s never, ever done it again. Given I’m one of those people who always thinks of the right thing to say at least ten minutes after it happens, I was particularly pleased with myself that day. It was snarky, sure, and pretty rude, but so is marching up and just butting into a conversation! (The fact that my exec pivoted immediately to the butter-inner rather than telling him to wait his turn was addressed later in private. He also apologized, but told me my reaction was perfect and I should do it more often. I got a hall pass to be rude. Perfect. *kisses fingers*)

  14. Princess Peach*

    I wrote in last week about my coworker who is terrible with emails (responds inappropriately indicating he clearly didn’t read it, doesn’t address every question in the email, doesn’t respond at all, etc.)

    As I explained in last week’s open thread, two Friday’s ago, he forwarded me an email from a customer wanting to order a chocolate teapot, with PO #123456. This customer has multiple sites, so I replied to John asking him to please clarify with the customer what address/location he wanted the order sent to. Instead, John replied to the customer (CC’ing me) asking him to please provide a PO #. I emailed John and said, “John, I don’t need the PO # – he has already provided that. I’m just needing the address that he wants the order sent to.” John then emailed the customer clarifying that it was actually the address we needed, not the PO #. The customer hadn’t replied as of last Tuesday, so I emailed John again to let him know the order hadn’t been placed, because the customer still hadn’t provided us the shipping address. John then emails then customer (CC’ing me), and says AGAIN, “Customer X, we still haven’t received the PO number for this order.” (!!!) The customer replies and says “John, I already provided the PO #, please see below”, and attaches a screen shot of his original email, STILL not providing an address.” I reply to John again and say, “John, once again we already have the PO, we are needing the ADDRESS that the order needs to be shipped to. Finally, John sends an email to the customer asking for the address, and the customer provides it. John does not apologize.

    Anyway, the situation got even worse this past Monday. Our purchaser was (finally!) placing an order for the chocolate teapots now that we had and ship to address for the customer. She emailed me saying that because of how large the order was, we would need some additional info from the customer (contact name, number, and if they have a loading dock). I forwarded the purchaser’s email to John. He responds with, “Princess Peach, this is ridiculous, I’ve asked the customer 20 different questions.” I could not BELIEVE he was blaming me for the excessive back and forth with the customer. First of all, the information was needed per the purchaser – I wasn’t asking him for the heck of it! Second of all (and more importantly!) 90% of the communication would have been cut down with the customer had John not continuously passed on incorrect information and asked the wrong questions from the customer. I was pretty irate, so I thought I would stand up for myself for once (this has been going on for years and no one has ever called John out!)

    I emailed John explaining how frustrating it is that he seems irked to have to follow up with the customer, when so much communication could have been cut down, had he read his emails more closely. I pointed out that often, he doesn’t fully respond to emails, responds inappropriately because he anticipates what the email is going to say (and ends up being wrong), doesn’t respond at all, etc. I assured him that my job in customer service is to make HIS job easier, so it’ll save time for the both of us if I don’t have to continuously clarify his emails and follow up with him. To my surprise, he responded with the following:

    “Well put and Thank you for raising my level of awareness. You make a number of valid points. I will do better job of communicating with you and reading my emails completely. I appreciate your effort that make my job easier. “

    Since then, to my shock, he has been thoroughly responding to my emails (and actually saying thank you!) for the first time in years. I would have raised this issue years ago had I known it would have actually made a difference!

      1. Princess Peach*

        Yeah, I was pretty surprised at his response! He happened to come into the office that day (before he’d responded to my email), and I halfway expected him to come to my desk and argue with my take on his email issues. He’s a rather large and intimidating man and can be a bit arrogant at times. It was so refreshing that he reacted the way he did.

        1. Hey Anonny Nonny*

          This makes me so happy and gives me a little bit of hope. Sometimes people really do respond to constructive criticism and make an effort to change their ways. Well done!

    2. Myrin*

      What a surprising twist! Good on you for standing up for yourself (and on behalf of others who have to deal with him as well, it seems)!

      Although this does make me wonder – had it honestly simply never occurred to him that he might need to read emails more carefully and that HE was the one creating a kind of bottleneck situation? I almost can’t believe that with just one email, he’s suddenly seen the light. How astounding!

      1. Princess Peach*

        I truly do think it never occurred to him that HE was the one creating these bottleneck situations so often. His approach in sales in so “go, go, go”, that I don’t think he even had the awareness to know the email mistakes he was making, and how it was negatively influencing everyone in the office.

        I’m shocked that he has suddenly seen the light, too! Granted, it’s been 4 days, but the difference in his email etiquette is astounding (answering questions fully, responding in a timely manner, being clear in his own questions, etc.) I just hope it continues!

        1. SarahKay*

          How awesome that he actually took on board what you said! Are you in a position to give him some positive reinforcement soonish? That might encourage him to continue; I know for me if someone give me a compliment on my work I then like to live up to the compliment.

        2. Rezia*

          Hooray! I hope he gets a lot of positive reinforcement in the next few days from others so he keeps it up

        3. Marni*

          Wow! I wonder if he looked back through the email exchange in order to “prove” his version to you, and was surprised and ashamed to see how it really went down?

          I know that’s happened to me. I pull up an old email that I’m sure will confirm my memory of an agreement, and discover I’m the one who had the date or whatever wrong. Ugh.

          Thanks for sharing the ray of hope!

    7. OhBehave*

      Holy Moley! That was unexpected.
      I know that if I miss something obvious, I cringe and become even more vigilant. It’s unreal that no one has raised this with him before. I wonder if he will be more thorough with all email or just yours.

  15. LilacLily*

    Here’s the long story short: I’m from South America, I have EU citizenship, I’ve been looking for jobs in the UK since May, in August I got an interview with a really great company in a city I’d love to relocate to, and was told by Bob, the recruiter who interviewed me, that I did really great, I’d be a perfect cultural fit, and I had all the required skills….. except I only had experience in Kettle maintenance instead of Teapot maintenance, and they mainly work with Teapots, so they didn’t move forward with me. After some deep reflections I’ve decided to take my meager savings to move to the UK in November to job search there and see what happens.

    I’m still job searching though, and last week a guy named Adam, a different recruiter from the company that interviewed me, posted a job that also fits my profile and is in that same city as before (and it doesn’t require me to have Teapot maintenance experience! Hurray!). I mentioned in my cover letter that I had that interview with Bob back in August, that Bob told me about how the company’s changing offices, how exciting that is, how I’d love to help and be a part of this big change, stuff like that, and I applied on Tuesday.

    And today… I got a rejection for it. An automatic message too, just to rub salt on the wound. I honestly want to punch a wall. I’m really, truly wondering what I might be doing wrong, because I must be doing SOMETHING wrong. I have to be. Not getting any interviews after so many months of job searching is gutting; I think I’d prefer to actually get interviews and not get the jobs than not get any interviews at all. I feel like I’m trying to maneuver a maze in the dark, guessing and wondering and feeling more and more lost as time goes by. It’s not like I’m applying for stuff that I’m underqualified for either, everything I apply for is either exactly or pretty much what I do, or only requires one or two skills that I don’t have but could easily pick up on.

    Would it be appropriate to ask Adam via LinkedIn as to why I was rejected for the job? I’m wondering if it’s because I’m a EU citizen and they’re unsure about hiring non-UK employees due to the whole Brexit issue. I’m not sure he’ll tell me if that’s actually the case, but it would help me a lot to know. My thinking is if he gives me a sincere feedback I can adjust my resume/cover letter/whatever so I can have a better chance at landing interviews.

    (Also, slightly unrelated, but would it be appropriate to send a connection request to Bob on LinkedIn? I’ve been wondering if it was ok, even though we only spoke once.)

    1. Weegie*

      Job searching remotely for work in the UK is hard, so that’s likely to be an issue. Brexit won’t be helping.

      You can absolutely try asking for feedback on why you weren’t interviewed, but I wouldn’t do it on LinkedIn – presumably you applied using Adam’s email address, so I would go directly to him using that address, or to whoever else was listed as the contact person for the job application. Be aware that if there were a lot of applicants for the job, you’re most likely to get a form response, if you get one at all.

      1. LilacLily*

        I applied through the company’s website, unfortunately; I knew who posted the job because LinkedIn sometimes shows you who the job poster is. I assume it’s something that the job poster can toggle on or off when posting the job ad on LinkedIn, and this particular company has this option toggled on for every single one of their vacancies. So if I really want to ask, it would have to be through LinkedIn.

      2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I was also thinking Brexit is the problem. A company is going to be very leery about investing in an employee who suddenly and without warning will lose their work authorization.

        1. LilacLily*

          from what I understand, though, as long as the person is hired before Brexit rolls around, nothing should be changing either for the company or the employee, right? or have I overlooked something?

          1. blackcat*

            That under one of the proposed rules. It’s no official. A great deal of the No deal Brexit economic impact is likely to be uncertainty around exactly these sorts of things. No one knows what the rules will be in 3 months!

            1. LilacLily*

              I see… that makes sense :(

              ugh I hope Brexit resolves itself soon. if I’m finding it annoying I can’t imagine how it’s like for people in the UK. my backup plan atm is to stay home until January and apply for jobs in Ireland, in case the UK is no longer an option, but I really wanted to move to the UK (I’m stubborn, I know.)

    3. Lalaith*

      I think it would be fine to send a connection request to Bob. Also, if you see another posting at that company you’d like to apply to, you can try to contact Bob to ask him to put you in touch with the job poster. I doubt he’d be able to get you feedback on this rejection, though, unfortunately :-/

    4. Snorkmaiden*

      When you fill in the .application are you addressing every point in the person spec and why you meet it?

      If you’re not, that’s your problem.

    5. UKCoffeeLover*

      I would definitely say the problem is Brexit. As an eu citizen you will need to apply for eu settlement status to stay in the uk after brexit. Employers aren’t going to want to risk employing someone who might not be able to work for them next month.
      If I had your options, I’d be moving to Ireland.

    6. Pip*

      I work at a UK based company which regularly recruits people from the EU, and we’ve definitely started seeing “lives in the UK already” as a major advantage rather than a nice bonus in candidates. As far as I know, we’re not rejecting promising candidates based on them living outwith the UK, but we’re in a position where we probably can get them a work visa if needed.

      So if the companies/roles that you are applying to wouldn’t be likely to qualify you for a work visa, then Brexit is probably part of your problem.

      1. LilacLily*

        Thank you so much for the info! The roles I’m applying to aren’t the kind to qualify me for a visa – they’re low to mid tier roles, stuff like senior support analyst or team leader/coordinator/manager roles, and as far as I know visas are usually given to higher level roles or roles that are unusually hard to fill.

        My last day at my current job is the 15th and I’m very excited to take some time off and just chill at home for a bit. I’m planning on spending the end of the year holidays at home with my family and wait to see how Brexit unfolds at last (if there’s a second referendum and Brexit falls through for good I’ll move to the UK and restart my job search anew [and if not, welp I guess the UK wasn’t meant to be after all…])

    7. New to the UK*

      Super late for this comment but I hope my experience is helpful! I moved to the UK from the US about three months ago to live with my partner. I’m currently on a dependent visa which allows me to work (I am eligible for permanent residency a few years down the road if we end up staying). My legal situation is different, but I had similar difficulty getting interviews at first. Talking to my partner and his local friends really helped.

      My main issue was cover letters. In my field in the US, at my experience level cover letters can be brief. It’s seen as a space to go into a bit more detail on relevant projects. Like you, I am applying for jobs that I felt I would be a great fit for, and met most of the criteria. It was horribly frustrating to work hard on my applications, apply for suitable positions, and constantly get rejected by a form email. However, I learned that in the UK, in my field employers expect you to respond to /every single essential criteria/ on the person specification. The extreme specificity of the job descriptions and person specifications was quite new to me, and at first I was overwhelmed with the many criteria.

      Once I started directly addressing each criteria, my cover letters got much longer, but I started to get more responses – and from jobs I was excited about. I am still job hunting (but have a few interviews coming up!), but am less frustrated by the process.

      Hope this helps, and good luck!

      1. LilacLily*

        Thank you so much for this tip! I know I previously mentioned in some of my cover letters the criteria I wasn’t exactly qualified for, but I’m gonna keep this tip in mind for the next few jobs I apply for and the next few cover letters I write.

        How long are your cover letters? I usually try to not make them longer than a whole page. Half a page I believe is ideal, but whenever I start writing it’s hard to get me to stop hahaha

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Mine are usually two pages when I have the “person specification” format. It’s kind of impossible to address 20 different characteristics in half a page!

          1. LilacLily*

            Interesting! It’s good to know that writing a longer cover letter won’t hurt my chances! thank you so much for the info :D

  16. Alana Smithee*

    Tl;dr should I approach the head of the department (my boss’s boss) about training to fill my retiring colleagues role, even though it would probably reveal that I am miserable in my current role?

    Background: A colleague of mine announced her retirement for next June. She hopes that the company will hire her replacement by March so that she can spend a few months training them up and this seems to be the plan. While we share the same job title (though hers is “senior”) we focus on two completely different areas (think teapot spout vs handle design, both essential parts of the teapot with some basic foundations but not a ton of overlap ). In my field there are a ton more opportunities for spout specialists vs handles, and in order to make myself more marketable I desperately want to get more experience. The department created my current position for me when I got my Teapot Design Certificate (I had been taking classes while working as a materials specialist in the department) and I’ve spent the last three years learning everything I possibly can about the particular area of handle design. My boss was promoted to Chief Handle Designer at the same time and it was my understanding that we would be taking a neglected program and building it up based on best practices. Three years in and I have finally admitted to myself that that was never the intention, my boss is actually a really bad manager (thanks aam for helping me realize that), I disagree with a lot of her decisions and am frustrated by her lack of leadership, and despite my best efforts I’m stagnating, which makes job hunting harder.

    The actual question: should I approach the grandboss (who theoretically has an open door policy) and inquire as to whether it would be possible to get on the job training over the next 8 months to take over my retiring colleagues role? I know that it wouldn’t be the same level as if they hired someone who already has all that experience, but I do bring with me deep knowledge of the company gained over 6 years in the department. The thing I’m most concerned about is that I’d probably have to explain to him why I’d want to leave my current role, and it could tip my hand that I want to leave the company if things don’t change. But I also don’t want to come across as whining about my boss. My boss has not been in the office for a month and isn’t expected back for another month so running it by her as part of professional development conversations isn’t really an option (not that we actually have those), and honestly I’m beginning to suspect that when she says she “ran something by the department head and he said no” she’s just using that as an excuse.

    Also teapot metaphors are difficult!

    1. Natalie*

      It sounds like you have a perfectly reasonable explanation for why you want to take over the retiring colleagues role without having to get into just how dissatisfied you are with your current position. You’ve been in your current specialty for a while and learned everything you can about it. You want to keep growing in the field and colleague’s specialty is the best opportunity to do that.

      I don’t think it would even be out of line to say that things have gotten a little bit stagnant for you in your existing position. If you’re planning on leaving, and changing to this new position would resolve that, you might as well give them the chance to keep you. If it doesn’t work out, well, you’re on your way out anyway!

    2. Uhdrea*

      I think unless your grandboss is particularly unreasonable, explaining it as wanting to get more training in this different area is a very normal and understandable reason to be interested in moving into the position.

    3. OtterB*

      I agree with the previous comments that wanting to broaden your knowledge in the field is a perfectly reasonable explanation for grandboss, no need to complain about your boss.

    4. Shoes On My Cat*

      Actually, you wrote the ideal verbiage above! “Professional development“ is the perfect phrase!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you think about it, feeling miserable in a job is not a qualification for another job. So I am not clear on why you feel you have to explain the misery to motivate her to move you to the upcoming opening. At most, I would say, “I have been here six years and I would like to take on a new challenge.”

      Turn your thoughts to explaining why it is to her advantage to move you over.

  17. Cosima*

    Did I potentially mess up my chance for a job by sending a thank you email with a mistake/typo?
    After an interview this week I sent the thank you email, it was late at night when I got home to send it and I pretty much sent a standard sounding prewritten thank you, and I forgot to put the interviewer’s name after “Dear” so instead of “Dear Mr. Interviewer” it read “Dear: ”
    The rest of the email was fine but I feel like it’ll stick out since it’s the first thing he’ll see. Does it make me look careless? Otherwise the interview went well.

    1. Sighhhh*

      It may or may not, but if it’s already a pretty “standard sounding prewritten” thank you note, forgetting the name will make it seem all the more copy and pasted. Think of it this way, though–plenty of people make worse mistakes (like putting the wrong name in!), and it’s a mistake you’ll only make once!

    2. Q*

      I think mistakes happen and it’s probably fine. I once sent an email to a client that said:

      “Best,

      Best,
      Q”

      I panicked. He sent back an email that said “Please goob you […]” It was all fine. :)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        ROTFLMAO
        I’m usually pretty good at picking out the meaning behind typos & autocorrects but this one has me baffled.
        What was it supposed to say?

        2. wordswords*

          “Please could you,” maybe? That’s the only thing I can think of! If so, it’s bizarre as a typo, but maybe plausible if the client uses a speech-to-text program or something? Or just had one of those moments where the brain-fingers connection goes very wonky.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I doubt it. It’s possible that you were competing against another candidate who was equal to you in every single way, and that candidate happened to send a thank-you email without a typo, but most of the hiring I’ve been involved in had the top candidate clearly above the others (sometimes better in terms of objective qualifications, and sometimes better in terms of fit), and that person would probably not be disqualified for something so silly.

    4. LCH*

      if you were strong otherwise, no. i got a job once after misspelling an important name in my cover letter.

    5. ArtK*

      Think about it this way. If that one, very minor, typo in a thank you e-mail cuts you out of the running, that’s not a company or person you want to work for. It would mean that they have no tolerance for very minor mistakes.

      Obsessing over that “one weird trick” that will get you a job, or that “one mistake” that can lose it for you is a tremendous waste of time and energy. As Alison and others have noted, hiring is not a cut-and-dried process. There are so many factors that go into a rejection or an acceptance that trying to parse them is futile.

      Odds are that if you don’t get the job, it’s because there was someone who was a better fit. Not because you mistyped something.

  18. Ineffective*

    Is it wrong that I thought this was an ineffective use of our time?

    We have quarterly trainings. They are generally held in City about an hour and a half drive from me. It is “mandatory” but people still get away with not showing up. My coworker has worked for Company for 5 years. I have been there a shorter time but still multiple years. The training is also meant as a “new hire training” so most times, we have to sit through “here is how to use the internal portal system to figure out XYZ.” Is it wrong that I think that part of the training is redundant and I rather we skip to “Here is what projects are coming up and here’s our plan for them?”

    1. finally october*

      It is absolutely wasting your time. New hire training should be just the new hires, so they can ask questions, delve in as much as they need, without wasting the time of everyone else sitting there or the instructor feeling pressured to hurry it up because Everyone Already Knows This.

      1. Ineffective*

        The manager did not hurry anything up. She actually allotted time in the 2 hour training for “going over the portal” but I noticed during that time, those of us who knew that information were chit chatting quietly with each other or texting.

        I also think that they don’t do specific New Hire Trainings because Company is cheap. Our trainings are generally held in a private room at a restaurant where I’m sure there’s a “room minimum” for food that we must (understandably) meet. Of course, there are less than 10 new hires so they could even meet at a Starbucks for this training if needed. There are even videos and PPTs of How to Use Portal that are sent out to new hires. The portal is also very simple to use and I say that because I was given no training to the portal when I started, just a login and had to figure it out myself.

        1. Mrs_helm*

          If they’re setting aside 2 hrs for portal training, could they not allow everyone tossed to arrive later? Like “Portal training will be 8-10am for new employees and anyone interested, with the meeting starting promptly at 10:15 . They’d still meet the minimums, but not waste everyone’s time. Alternately, is there some type of breakout activity, advanced training, etc that the rest could be doing?

          1. Ineffective*

            That would make SO much more sense! Part of the training (a good 10-15 mins) is about the portal. The entire training is 2 hours. I wish I could suggest to them to make new hires come earlier but then they’ll be like “We get questions from Current Employees about the portal so it’s just better if everyone can be part of it to answer any questions they may have.”

            Unfortunately, they ran out of time for the part of the training that I was actually interested in. SME on Client Product was there to give us more details about Client Product. Priorities, right?

            1. valentine*

              Suggest they put the new hire portion at the end. People who want to stay to ask questions can do so.

  19. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A small update people might find useful: If you’re searching a page for “OP” to try to find where the OP has commented, you’ve probably found you get every instance of “op” on the page, including words like “opposite” or “open.” So … we’ve added a hidden asterisk after commenter names that you won’t see but is really there. What this means:

    Now if you search for OP*… you will find only comments made under the name OP. (This works for other names too. If you’re searching for a commenter named, say, Jo, you can search Jo* and will just get comments from Jo rather than every instance of job, joy, etc.)

      1. Nicotene*

        Haha yeah I was thinking that, when I have been the questioner I have always tried to come up with a comment name that is not just “OP” so that people can find me – partly because a lot of people’s responses also include OP as an entire word (“If I was this OP I would …”

    5. Myrin*

      That’s awesome, thanks so much for this new feature! (I know people have been asking about something like this for the longest time and you said it would be difficult to do technically, so I’m happy to see you found a satisfactory solution!)

    13. Elizabeth West*

      Ooh thank you! Sometimes when I get to a post, there are so many comments I need to search. This is very helpful. :D

      1. Reply*

        Or rather, it works on replies but not replies to Alison, as her name doesn’t have the asterisk and I guess it applies the same thing to replies to a thread she starts?

    17. halfwolf*

      i noticed this the other day and was considering commenting to ask if anyone else had seen it (i have a fidgety habit of highlighting as i’m reading on a screen, which is how i noticed it). supremely helpful – thank you!

    19. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Thank you! This will make it much easier to comment-stalk specific posters in the Friday thread, too. (Mostly an issue for me because “Hellmouth” has become a noun used by other posters, and I still try to check for her updates.)

    21. Brazilian Hobbit*

      Ooooh, this is amazing! Thank you, Alison! (Supreme Blogger Green? I’m not sure now)

    25. Nela*

      Cool feature! I usually put a space after “OP” in search so it only matches the whole word.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Until this change, that wouldn’t find user names of OP, just comments with OP in the text. At least in most browsers — maybe you were using a rare one where that wasn’t the case!

  20. ProfessionalJobHunter*

    My sister texted me this morning because her husband is looking to find a job with higher pay. She wants me to help him with his cover letter and resume and give him job hunting tips because I have a lot of experience with writing and with job hunting (I am very long term unemployed).

    My problem with this is that if my sister asks for a favor and you can’t help her for some reason she’ll get upset, but if you ask her for a favor, no matter how small, her automatic response is “I’m too busy.” Other than that we have an okay relationship, but I don’t feel any obligation to help her if it’s not convenient for me.

    And, as a long term unemployed person, I am dealing with a ton of horrible emotions everyday that intensify whenever I have to force myself to do anything related to job hunting. I am not at all happy at the idea of helping someone who is currently employed in a well-paying job find an even better paying job. I wish I was in his position and feel no sympathy.

    I would just say I’m too busy to help him, but I’m unemployed so I’m obviously not. Anyone have any suggestions on how to respond in a neutral way?

    1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      If you have a decent relationship with your sister, I would just be honest. “Hey, I would love to help with this, but I need to use all of my energy on my own job hunt right now. Even the thought of applications makes me feel awful.” Sometimes being up front that you’re not okay is the best way to go – especially because you don’t want her coming back for help with other job activities. And good luck with your own search. Good for you for looking out for your own mental health!

      1. Nicotene*

        If you really want to have communication with your sister, I wonder if you can use this as an opening to be totally honest and genuine. “Can I talk about something that’s been bothering me? Last time I asked you for help with X or Y, you said you were too busy, and even though my feelings are hurt I accepted that it just wasn’t your priority to help me. So now when you ask me for favors it makes me feel like our relationship is unequal.” Maybe you can talk about Ask and Guess culture, and establish ground rules for your relationship like, “it’s okay to ask and it’s okay to say no” – so no, you don’t want to help her husband because it will bring up bad feelings for you, and that’s a perfectly fine response.

        1. ProfessionalJobHunter*

          I looked up the Ask and Guess culture thing you mentioned and thought that was very interesting. One of the mentioned ways of saying “no” without explanation was “I can’t, because I’m unable to.” LOL! I wish I could use that. :)

          1. valentine*

            You can use that. Just don’t deviate. Let her be upset. She’s unreal. It would make more sense for you to literally watch paint dry than to help someone else find a job under these circumstances.

          2. Kat in VA*

            A variation on that was given to me by my dear aunt. It’s perfect as-is but not as rude as “No is a complete sentence” kind of abrupt.

            “I’m sorry, that just won’t work for me/us.”

            This is useful in all situations where you have Reasons, don’t have Reasons, or your Reason is I JUST DON’T WANT TO which is also a perfectly valid Reason.

            I learned a long time ago when you say that you can’t/don’t want to do something, and someone pushes you for reasons with WHYYYYY, oftentimes it’s not because they particularly care about your Reason. It’s because they want to argue with you and ultimately wear you down into doing what they want.

            Just like a child who whines about why they have to go to bed at a certain time. They’re not going to listen to your explanation of growing brains and not being tired in school and responsible parenting and Mom and Dad need five minutes without you, and then turn around and say, “Thank you for thinking of my best interests at heart, Mother, I shall hie myself away to slumber now.” They whine WHYYYYY so they can argue with you about all those reasons and, as a bonus, postpone bedtime a little longer to boot.

            “I’m sorry, I can’t do the resume.”
            BUT WHYYY
            “Well, it’s upsetting to me because my job hunt is hard.”
            BUT IT’S NOT FOR YOU, IT’S FOR HUSBAND
            “Yes, but it’s still related to job hunting and it’s upsetting.”
            BUT IT’LL ONLY TAKE A LITTLE WHILE AND IT’S NOT A BIG DEAL, REALLY
            “Even so, I don’t really want to do this” (which is the actual and real Reason Above All Reasons).
            OMG I AM YOUR SISTER, IT’S JUST A TINY FAVOR, JUST DO IT FOR ME

            …and the round robin goes on and on, with the result of you either standing fast and feeling guilty and beaten up and tired for defending yourself, or bowing to her pressure and feeling even worse because you really really don’t want to Do The Thing.

            Using “I’m sorry, but that just won’t work for me” as long as you repeat it is beautiful, simple, and damn near bombproof. You use the phrase, the inevitable BUT WHYYYY fires up, and you repeat, maybe with a tinge of regret, “Mmmm, I’m sorry, but that…just doesn’t work for me.” BUT IT’S BLAH BLAH BLAH. “Understood but, no, that just won’t work for me.”

            Most people, if they’re not utterly obtuse or obnoxious, realize by the third iteration that (1) they’re not going to get A Reason I Can Tussle With and (2) you’re not going to Do The Thing for them. They’ll be annoyed, sure, but you’ll be far less drained than you would be from going through all the reasons/diversions/explanations/justifications/defenses.

            The first few times you use that phrase without attaching all the justifications to clear yourself, it is SO HARD. But it gets so much easier with practice, and oftentimes, you’ll start with the initial, “I’m sorry, that just won’t work for me” and people – even the ones you are SURE are going to die MAD at you because you won’t do The Thing – will simply reply, “Oh, OK, then I’ll do this / ask someone else / hire someone / won’t go that day” or whatever.

      2. ProfessionalJobHunter*

        I don’t really want to talk about feelings with her, but I like your suggestion of saying “I would love to help (which sounds nice even if it isn’t necessarily true), but I need to use all my energy on my own job hunt.” If she argues with that, it’d be easy to explain I can only devote so much time/effort to it each week before getting tired of it, and my job hunt is more urgent than her husband’s so I have to focus on mine.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      Send them here and have them go the the “job searching” link at the right side of the page. We’ve got tons of good advice right here in stock, and it’s all free!

    3. peanut*

      Say no if you don’t want to do it. It seems really rude and oblivious for your sister to ask you to help her husband find a job when you are still trying to find a job for yourself!

      Given how you’ve described your sister, you may want to say no by just saying something self-deprecating like, “you know, I’ve had a tough time finding a job myself, so I don’t think my advice will be helpful to him.”

      To be clear, I’m not saying that your job hunting skills are poor – I’m just suggesting you imply this to your sister given what you’ve described her reaction is likely to be. The goal is to say no to her and get her to stop asking you for help in this, ideally without causing more stress for yourself.

      1. Joielle*

        This is what I was going to suggest too. It might be easiest to just tell her you’ve also been looking for a while with no luck, so he’d be better off asking someone else (and if he gets any good tips, can he share them with you?). Although it’s a white lie, I think this might be the easiest way to get her off your back.

        1. ProfessionalJobHunter*

          I like your and peanut’s suggestion. Maybe combine it with Long-time AMA Lurker’s. Like, “I would love to help with this, but I need to use all of my energy on my own job hunt right now. I’m obviously having no luck, so I’m not the best person to ask for help anyway!”

    4. Mimosa Jones*

      Does her husband even want your help? It’s your sister who’s doing the asking, not him. I’d first want to know if he’s on board. And what’s he like? Would giving him a “no” work better? I’d probably center my “helpfulness” around AAM. “Good for him, I found AAM to be a great resource. I hope he finds something.” If you’re in different industries then you can point out that someone who does work in the same industry would be a better judge of his application materials. But no matter what, you CAN say you don’t have any time. Your time is yours to allocate and define. If you feel it’s better spent rearranging your sock drawer than helping your BIL with his (less than urgent) job search, then that’s just fine. You may have a lot of downtime right now, but job hunting can be emotionally grueling and you have every right to limit your exposure. Probably best not to get too detailed and just say you can’t right now but you wish him luck and leave it at that. I hope you find something soon.

      1. ProfessionalJobHunter*

        Her husband has my cell phone number, and I’ve told him he can text me directly, but if he has questions or wants help with something my sister will ask me for him, and then there is the expectation that I will text him and ask him what he needs. He’s nice enough, but it’s awkward and annoying that he needs my sister to reach out to me and then needs me to reach out to him, so it’s probably good to not get involved in something that will require a lot of communication.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Tell your sister that you’re too busy with your own extended job search to help him. Tell her to send him here to read the archives and wish them luck – you really don’t have to lie, and you are busy.

    6. OhBehave*

      Given the lack of success you’ve had for so long, I’m surprised she turned to you. It makes me suspicious. (will she blame you if he’s not successful?) She obviously doesn’t want to help him.
      If you don’t want to do it…don’t! Be honest and tell her you’re discouraged at the moment and would not be much help to him.

        1. ProfessionalJobHunter*

          I think asking for “help” with his coverletter and resume probably means me asking him a ton of questions to figure out what to write, and then basically writing them for him. This makes sense since I’m good at writing. (When I do phone screenings or interviews, the phone screener or interviewer often mention how much they loved my cover letter and they’ll bring up specific sentences that really spoke to them.) It’d be easier for me to write his coverletter and resume and do a good job of it then have him work on it himself.

          And she knows I’m very big on doing research and collecting information. I’ve done a ton of reading on job hunting, so I have lots of article links in my bookmarks, a long list of possible interview questions, a list of questions to ask at interviews, etc. It’d be easier to ask me questions about job hunting, or let me provide advice and resources, than to do research himself.

          So, even though I’m not having luck with getting a job, I assume she still thinks my writing and research skills would be useful.

          1. peanut*

            Ah, this is helpful. So, assuming still that your ultimate goal is to not get caught up in any of this, I would just keep saying you can’t and repeating whatever statement you’ve decided on. Given what you’ve explained here, I’m just worried that your sister will say something like, “well, if you don’t have time, just do this one thing for him!” and then you get caught in a cycle of doing just “one little thing” and then suddenly you’re doing just “another little thing”, and then on and on and suddenly you’re doing unpaid work for him that’s taking up your limited resources to dedicate to your own job hunt.

            So don’t even start with them. Be firm, or tell a white lie, or an actual lie (whatever will go over best with your sister), but don’t start doing anything. Don’t reach out to your BIL if he hasn’t approached you directly, don’t prepare a list of resources for him, don’t do anything that takes up more of your time than saying no, and don’t proactively suggest other ways you could help them.

            Maybe this advice sounds harsh and some people would say, “what’s wrong with helping when you have the knowledge?” But you sounded pretty clear in your original post that you didn’t want to/were able to help them right now, and that is totally fine. Because if the choice is between finding your BIL a job and finding yourself a job, you’ve got to put yourself first.

          2. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

            I’d say if he REALLY wants to look for a new job, he should be doing a lot of this resume, cover letter, job research himself. You’re not going to his interviews for him…

            1. Kat in VA*

              I found my husband’s last four jobs for him. By which I mean, I looked up the listings and sent in his resume (after telling him about it). I type faster and became very conversant, very fast with various HRIS on the web when he was out of work for 16 months.

              Other than that…cover letter required? On him. Research the company, their products, their mission? On him. Interviewing? Clearly on him.

    7. Fall Is Here*

      I get that the combination of your unemployment combined with your uneven relationship with your sister makes this tricky for you. Assuming you like him/have a decent relationship with him, can you call your BIL directly and see what his thoughts are? (He might not even know his wife put this out there to you.) Or he might just have a question or two you could easily answer. And I love the suggestion to send him here for info he can research himself! But sometimes, I find helping someone else with something can also help me in some way — change of perspective, change of focus, new ideas — but of course, you know whether any of that’s likely or would be particularly helpful to you right now. Wishing you luck in your job search!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      You could point out that you haven’t found a job yet and perhaps he would want to go with someone with established success such as Alison’s books/advice here.

      No offense meant but if it were me, I would be afraid of hearing, “Why should I listen to her, she’s been unemployed HOW long??” (BTDT)

      No this sounds like a bad set up from the get go. Show her your resource materials for advice and let him figure out what is best for his setting.

      1. This*

        Please let me kindly validate your point for the benefit of the readership. If one seeks advice about how to get a job, don’t ask a person who’s been trying long-term but has not succeeded. I’m just sayin’

  21. Goldfinch*

    In “good timing” news, a VP said something horrifically classist, sexist, and fat-phobic to me today…only twenty minutes before I was scheduled for a massage as part of our company wellness benefits. The therapist just about broke a knuckle trying to get the knot out of my neck.

    I am growing increasingly frustrated with my toxic company culture, despite my unicorn boss and awesome tiny department. Being an oasis in a sea of sewage is great, but you’re still surrounded by sewage. How do you decide when the good has stopped outweighing the bad?

    1. Third or Nothing!*

      I don’t have an answer to your question but I wanted to express my outrage on your behalf: UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!!! So sick of fat shaming, not to mention sexism and classism.

    2. Anono-me*

      You know it’s time to move on when you write in to ask an advice columnist for permission.

      Seriously. It is a sign when you’re asking for permission to move on. You don’t need it, but you do have the blessings of this random internet commenter.

      Start looking for a new position. Take your time, due your research, make sure you’re moving to a better position. Don’t wait until you’re miserable and desperate and willing to take the first thing that comes along and looks decent.

      Good luck.

      1. automaticdoor*

        Yes, if you have gotten to the point of asking people online for advice, you have probably made up your mind deep down!

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Don’t wait until you’re miserable and desperate and willing to take the first thing that comes along and looks decent.

        This bears repeating. If you wait until shit really hits the fan, then you’re liable to miss red flags during your job search and will end up in a situation either as bad or worse than where you are now. Start looking so you can do so from a position of strength.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think we sometimes get stuck thinking that our situations could be so much worse than they are, and that since they’re not the absolute worst case scenario we’re not allowed to complain or want better. You’re allowed to think that this is bad even though it could be worse. You’re allowed to want better. It doesn’t hurt anything for you to start your job search now. You’re lucky to be in a situation where you do have a job that’s not the absolute worst case scenario, so you can be choosy about where you apply and whether you pursue all the interviews and offers you receive. Make use of that benefit and start exploring.

      1. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

        Great advice, Librarian of SHIELD. Also, my posting name waves to your posting name, and I wonder if I know you from fandom.

        This is also where I am now, just thinking about really putting in a lot of time to find something new, and to choose the right job for me.

    4. Jennifer*

      I just made that choice in my personal life. I think your body made the decision for you. One person going to bat for you sometimes isn’t enough.

    5. PolarVortex*

      You start looking at what’s out there, and know that while you’re happy with parts of this job, if you find a better one, then why would you stay in a sea of sewage.

      And if, between now and potential future job, you find out the oasis is sinking and you need a helicopter rescue – well, your resume is already up to date and you’ve already been searching.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      Fellow oasis-in-a-poop-sea dweller:
      First up, I’m really sorry that the VP did that.

      To answer your question: mine was pretty cut and dried. I mentally quit the day one of the department heads told me a sexual-assault “joke” in front of one of the “big bosses.” Big boss then laughed and said he’d told the same joke to the company’s owner at the annual big meeting the previous week. The fact that he was still employed told me all I needed to know.

      But the key term is “mentally quit.” I’ve updated my resume and LinkedIn and I’m searching regularly (including a few interviews) but have yet to find a replacement. It’s been a few months now and it’s a little disheartening, but I’m still looking.

      So, tl;dr: Just start. You pick the pace.

    7. Not a Real Accountant*

      Just chiming in to agree that if you’re thinking or asking about leaving (you do not need permission), it is definitely time to start searching–you don’t have to leave right away (but if you do find something amazing that quickly, feel free to go! :))!

      As Anono-me said, don’t wait until you’re miserable and desperate–I did that (in the vain hope that I could help and things would get better (spoiler alert: I couldn’t, and it never did)), and oh man searching in this state is awful. Save yourself!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      The good stopped out weighing the bad a while ago.

      Once you realize you have a toxic company that is everything you need to know. Voice of experience toxins and corruption trickle down through the company and no one is immune. Everyone is vulnerable to the side-effects.
      If we wait until we are angry or crying or going to a doc every week, we have waited too long to get out.

  22. Marzipan*

    Aaaaggghhhhhh dilemma.

    I’m now 13 weeks pregnant after a lot of fertility treatment, and previous pregnancy losses. So far everything seems to be going OK but I’m still very cautious – in an ideal world, I’d really like to wait until after my 20-week scan before letting people know about the pregnancy. (I’m someone whose weight tends to fluctuate, and we’re entering the kind of weather where wearing lots of layers isn’t weird, so this seems… maybe doable? Although I’d sort of anticipate that people might be politely biting their tongues as time goes on.)

    My take on being pregnant at work is very much influenced by years of infertility – keep it low key, you never know who may be struggling. My particular dilemma right now is that I know one colleague is currently having a really tough time being around pregnant people. At the moment, and probably for the next couple of months, this colleague is spending more time in our office specifically for this reason – basically, because none of us are pregnant. Except, I am. So if all goes well for me, I’m going to be just sort of gradually swelling like a mushroom in the corner of the room, and I’m so conscious of her feelings, and want to be as sensitive as possible.

    She is just the loveliest person and I really want to approach things with her feelings in mind, but in really unsure if how to manage this in a work context. If this were a friend outside work, I’d probably look at sending a text or other written message when I was ready to tell people, so she’d have time to process the information privately and could avoid me if she wanted to. But unfortunately, I don’t have any of her personal contact info, just the work stuff – and I’m not sure sending an email through a work account would really give that opportunity. Plus there’s the whole ongoing proximity in the meantime which could go pear-shaped in various ways.

    Help me out, people – any thoughts on what’s best to do here?

    1. Anongradstudent*

      It’s awesome that you’re empathetic to your coworker’s perspective, and I wish ore of my coworkers were as compassionate as you are! However, it’s not your job to hide your pregnancy or give her a heads-up. Did you expect other people to tiptoe around you when you were having trouble conceiving? If anything it might be a little presumptuous to let her know, unless she’s confided with you directly about her feelings. If so, maybe you could mention it while having lunch or tea with her, where it’s more private. But I would recommend you just keep doing what you’re doing and she can make her own decision about whether she wants to find another space.

      1. valentine*

        I’d really like to wait until after my 20-week scan before letting people know about the pregnancy.
        You deserve to prioritize yourself. Go ahead and wait (unless there’s a vital business need for you to tell your manager). You shouldn’t have to walk eggshells for your coworker and she can’t expect to know who is pregnant all the time. I’m wondering why you’re not directing that tenderness toward yourself and whether you wish others would treat you like this.

    2. Anona*

      When I became pregnant, I shared my pregnancy in-person with my manager, and my direct team. For the larger office, I sent an email. I kept it very short and direct, sharing approximately when I expected to take leave, when I expected to return, etc.

      I also included this line, since there was also someone I suspected would have a difficulty time: “Also, given the large size of the staff, and how it’s never possible to know what goes on in everyone’s personal lives, I’m keeping those hoping to expand their families in my thoughts.”

      If you go the email route, you could also consider sending it towards the end of the day/close to a weekend, so if she’s really struggling, at least she has a weekend/evening upcoming to process.

      And congratulations!

      1. Anona*

        I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with sharing with everyone (except your manager) by email.

        1. Bluesboy*

          I would just be careful though that there’s no risk of a ‘reply all’ situation flooding her inbox with ‘congratulations on your pregnancy’ emails.

          If there is an office-wide email, everyone NEEDS to be in blind copy to avoid this

      1. Janine*

        I’m in the same boat: IVF, miscarriages, early pregnancy right now (with everything crossed that it works out). My direct boss knows because she has to but no one else will hear anything pregnancy-related from me until there is a healthy, breathing baby in my arms. This is 100% because I’m not ready for anyone to know but if I squint, maybe I could also say that I want to be mindful of other people’s struggles. I feel like those of us who are going through this understand the issues of privacy and superstition and won’t bring it up.

        1. anycat*

          this, as someone who went through IVF and had a baby in december. once i let the entire office know a lot more people came out and started talking to me about their struggles too.

          for those who might be struggling as well, i would probably take them for a coffee or a walk and just let them know.

          i also made fertility take along kits for people too (warm cozy socks, notebooks, bandaids, chocolate).

    4. MatKnifeNinja*

      There is nothing you are going to say that won’t/hurt upset this coworker, if she is really this raw.

      It is what it is. You haven’t been party hats and streamers the whole time, because you know this is a tender spot for her.

      I might (depending how she has previously handled other announcements), tell her only on a Friday, that you are expecting and you will be telling everyone else on that coming Monday.

      It might wreck a weekend for her, but at least she has time to process the situation and decide what to do. Take a few days off to dodge all the happy cheer? Come in anyway?

      My last coworker, who had bad issues with fertility, lost it at lunch when another pregnancy was announced. Full bore tears and sobbing. It was pregnancy #5 for my small department within a year.

      If it’s go be traumatic, you can tell her at the end of the day. The coworker can ugly cry in her the car and at home during the weekend. No one wants be crying during someone else’s happy news. She can save a little face.

      My two pennies into the hat…

      Congrats on the new little one! <3

    5. iglwif*

      Congratulations! And thank you on behalf of people who struggle with infertility and/or pregnancy losses for your kind and empathetic approach to sharing the news.

      I don’t have direct advice … but I will say that when I *finally* got pregnant after years of infertility ~stuff~, I told my then-boss right away (because she was SuperBoss and in on the whole IVF situation due to all the work I’d been missing), but didn’t tell ANYONE ELSE at work until after the 20-week scan. (I had some weird breakthrough bleeding in my first trimester, which made me extra-extra-nervous about telling people too soon.) I had 2 direct reports at that point and I told them in person, but everyone else by email, and some of them not until later on–obviously I had to tell all my llama-grooming customers that I was going to be away for 13 months and who my replacement would be, but they didn’t need to know that, like, 20 weeks ahead of time.

    6. The Darling Librarian*

      It’s super sweet of you to take her feelings into consideration. Would it be possible to ask her to coffee or to meet before or after work while no one is around? It gives each the opportunity to be vulnerable without an audience around and doing it in an authentic manner that shows genuine concern for her.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. Anona*

        I wouldn’t do in person. I struggled with infertility, and it was so hard hearing about people’s pregnancy news in person! Text or email was always better, since I didn’t have to act happy immediately, and could process on my own.

        1. Quandong*

          I’m another person for whom text or email or handwritten note would have been preferable to an in-person pregnancy announcement, especially at work. Marzipan, if you don’t have other avenues, would a handwritten note to your colleague given on a Friday afternoon be an option?

    7. Joielle*

      I think it would be fine to do it via work email, assuming it’s not like a shared inbox situation or something. Personally, I agree with you that a written message is best – maybe right before you leave the office on a Thursday or Friday, so she doesn’t have to immediately see you and could take a day off or have the weekend to process if needed.

      Also, I’m sure you know this, but just to emphasize – it’s not your fault, you’re not being pregnant AT her, so even if/when she has some difficult feelings that seep out, don’t take it personally. And congrats!

    8. ten-four*

      I think it’s lovely to be thinking of this, and I don’t think you personally have to own the conversation. If you know that this person is in your space b/c of pregnancy issues, that means someone put her there. Can you talk to that person (her manager? your office manager?) and have them handle it? They can own both the initial heads up conversation and provide practical support as needed (maybe she’ll be moved again, for example). This would be kindest for her as well as for you – she’ll be able to have whatever reaction happens with as safe an audience as possible. And frankly you don’t need to take on this emotional labor.

      Also: congratulations!! I hope everything goes beautifully for you.

    9. WellRed*

      You’re very kind and thoughtful, but it’s not on you to manage her feelings. She had to move offices because she can’t be around pregnant people?? That’s on her to work through. Have you decided how you plan to tell people, aside from this issue?

    10. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Since you do want to keep this to yourself for a few more weeks, I say go ahead and do that for as long as you feel necessary and able. When you decide it’s time to meet with your boss to give the heads-up that you’ll be needing maternity leave, ask her if she has any recommendations for how to roll out this information given your coworker’s sensitivity. It’s possible that the management team actually has a backup plan for this, or that your manager could have an idea that would be helpful. If nothing else, you’ll be able to create a plan together that could work to minimize the discomfort for your coworker.

      Good luck!

    11. Shiny Onix*

      For what it’s worth, when it took me what felt like ONE MILLION YEARS to conceive after a horrendously traumatic miscarriage, and I hated being around pregnant people? People who had had a hard time with fertility related stuff were ok: I could cope with their pregnancies.(Luckily I managed to get pregnant before it transpired four other women in my building were pregnant or I never would have been able to go back to that building again.)

      I just realised I am presuming she knows some of your history, but if that’s not actually true, might you be open to giving her a tiny piece of the history so she understands a bit more?

      I am so very quietly optimistic and hopeful for you.

    12. M. Albertine*

      Based on my experience on both sides of this equation, I would take her aside at the end of a day, and tell her then. Make it short and to the point, that you’ll be letting the general office know tomorrow and you’ll do your best to keep it low-key. If you know she has a day off sometime, maybe coincide the announcement with when she’ll be gone? Then the fervor will most likely die down before she comes back and she won’t have to deal with all the congratulations and such.

      1. SecondCareer*

        Personally, I wouldn’t tell her in person. I would either ask my manager to pull her into her office towards the end of the day and tell her or tell her via email towards the end of the day (but try to make sure she sees it before she leaves) and do this after your manager knows BUT before anyone else in the office is told.

        My SIL had significant pregnancy issues – I know it’s not the same because it’s at home, but I sent her an email telling her before we told my in-laws. Her SIL on the other side was pregnant at the same time (we were due like 3 weeks apart) so I already knew she was struggling with that. She later thanked me for giving her the space to have her reaction in private. There’s nothing worse than wanting to fall apart but needing to put on a happy face.

    13. Kat in VA*

      I think you are lovely for thinking of your coworker.

      However, you didn’t get pregnant AT her – you got pregnant. (Congratulations, by the way!)

      It is entirely, completely, and utterly UP TO YOU as to when you want to announce you’re pregnant. Full stop. You are not required to take other people’s feelings into account, or give her a heads-up, or manage some complicated situation where only she knows and no one else does. Her feelings are hers to manage, and hers alone.

    14. Anonny*

      Seconding all the comments to tell her not in person (use text, email, etc.) so she has time to process away from others. We were a long time struggling with infertility, and at a dinner with old co-workers/friends who’d just spent all day at a birth class (who didn’t know our struggles so even more so we put on our happy faces), our other mutual friends (who did know some of our struggles) announced at dessert that they were also pregnant! It was even harder to act happy for them, even being able to leave quickly after the check arrived… it would have been unbearable at work. Yes, you’re not pregnant at her, but compassion if you can manage it is so welcome!

      Also, I never told anyone at work when I did get pregnant, partly because of miscarriage history and early complications. I expected to after the 20 weeks scan came back fine, but at that point, layoffs were impending so I just kept my mouth shut in case it made the chopping block arrive sooner for me. It’s your news to tell when you’re ready.

      Hope all goes well for you.

  23. Lisa*

    Thinking about this mornings post – how do you deal with an otherwise good employee who simply refuses to take an instruction? Linda, who kept getting up, just responded with “No, that won’t be possible”. How do you counter that? Firing seems extreme, assuming that all of the tasks are getting done (yes, I know clients are sometimes waiting, but in this hypothetical situation, assume it’s maybe 1 out of 10 and her filing is fantastic).

    1. ElizabethJane*

      Counterpoint: Are they really a good employee if they can’t follow simple instructions, particularly if the aforementioned instruction is a key part of their job?

      Sometimes I think we confuse “decent human whom I would likely enjoy spending time with outside of work” or “person who is talented at some parts of their job” with “good employee” and those things aren’t really the same at all.

      But I’d respond with “This is not negotiable”.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think you have to move to an immediate firing, but that could warrant a PIP. There are also other ways to “discipline” employees without choosing between “everything’s fine” and “you’re fired.” The employee could get less juicy assignments or get a pay cut or have other benefits (not health benefits, but other things) taken away.

      Is there any possibility that “that won’t be possible” means that she’s overly stressed and feels you’re adding something to her plate she can’t get done? Or is she really just refusing to do something because she doesn’t like it? Can you ask her why she’s responding that way?

    3. North Wind*

      Depends on the situation. In this case (if the manager were functioning properly), it would make sense to clearly spell out the job requirements (being at the desk), and when Linda says no, since she is otherwise good I think I would try to coach her about finding/working in a position that is a better fit. But all the while holding firm on the requirements of her current job and being clear that the company needs to have someone in that position who can fulfill its responsibilities.

    4. anonagain*

      I’d start by trying to understand why they felt it wasn’t possible. Sure the employee should explain if there’s a good reason, but they haven’t, so I can ask. Or perhaps they already discussed the underlying issue and I just haven’t made the connection between that conversation and whatever I’ve asked them to do.

      It could be something simple, but there’s no way forward without better communication. I’d try to open that door and hopefully find a solution. I’d also try to coach the employee on how to raise these issues in the future.

      The employee’s response is really not ideal, but I do think it’s worth trying to figure out what’s going on before doing anything else.

      1. Lisa*

        Yes. When I read the post I was thinking of the research that states you should get up and walk around at least every five minutes, for an hour of sitting. There are health issues that are linked to being sedentary, especially related to sitting. If the employee had brought that up, do you think that would have changed the discussion?

    5. nonymous*

      idk if you listened to the podcasts that Alison did for a while, where she gave examples of how tone can be used to steer the conversation?

      In the ideal world Lindas would be able to articulate why she can’t be in a sedentary environment and the conversation would be about troubleshooting that (sit/stand desks, giving her some grunt work for non-busy times, letting her know that it’s okay to read/play minesweeper/whatever during down times, etc). However if the employee seems well-intentioned but clueless, it’s a kindness to let them know how their response is being perceived. I would pair the tone that Alison modeled with ElizabethJane’s statement “this is not negotiable”, leave a small door open for medical accommodations and tell her that outright refusal will be seen as insubordination.

    6. Joielle*

      I think it’s a big enough deal to at least float the concept of firing. Maybe one of Alison’s signature conversations: “I hear what you’re saying, but unfortunately it’s essential that the person in this position stay at the desk 90% of the time. Knowing that, does it make sense for you to stay in this role? If not, I completely understand, and we can talk about giving you some time to look for a more suitable position elsewhere.”

    7. CM*

      I think it depends. If the thing you’re asking them to do is core to their job, and the reason they’re employed there, then it’s super easy, because the situation is that they need to agree to do it or else it’s not a good match anymore and you have to hire someone else.

      The trickier situations are when it’s about something that’s not really core to their job — which is what I think you’re asking about. When the core job responsibilities are happening well enough that they’re an asset to your team, but there’s some weird peripheral thing that they’re drawing a hard line on. In that case, I think you need to talk about it and try to find a compromise that both of you can live with. If you aren’t able to, then you have to decide if having them refuse this thing is a price you’re willing to pay to keep them in the job, or if you need to replace them.

      The way I think about it is like this: They’re telling you what they are and aren’t willing to do. Now that you have that information, do you still want to keep them in that role?

      It’s not wrong for them to say, “I’m not going to do that,” and it’s not wrong for you to say, “I can’t really keep you here if you’re not going to do that,” either. But, if you do want to keep them, trying to find a compromise is your best bet.

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If it’s possible, and the Linda employee really is an otherwise great employee, I would try to move them to a position that they can excel in — not in a retaliatory way, but if they can’t or won’t do the job they have, there really aren’t many options. Saying, “It’s okay if 10% of our clients are kept waiting, or office production stops 10% of the time because Linda decided that’s what she wants,” really isn’t OK. Others may pick up the attitude that “nope, not going to” is acceptable, and then the whole office starts to fail.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        This is a big part of it for me. Any action taken or not taken must take into account its impact on the whole team. It’s unlikely that OP was the only person to notice that Linda wasn’t doing her job as outlined. At some point that bleeds out and it becomes the norm for people to pick and choose which parts of their job they want to do and which parts they don’t want to do. Businesses can’t function that way.

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I would argue that in Linda’s case, she was *not* completing all of her assigned tasks. There were two specific tasks she had been given that she was deliberately choosing not to complete. One was staying at or near her desk to deal with people who came over or called her. The other was telling her coworker when there was a task that the coworker needed to complete. The technical job assignments she was given may have been getting done, but those two job tasks don’t stop counting just because they don’t have distinct deliverables. We’ve had similar conversations here when there’s an employee who isn’t treating co-workers well, because being able to treat your coworkers respectfully can definitely be considered an essential job task and you can absolutely put an employee on a PIP or give a written warning if they’re not doing that.

      If I had been Linda’s manager, I probably would have started with why. Why does Linda feel that staying at or near her desk is impossible? Is there anything I can do from my end that would make it more possible? Then if the “why” conversation wasn’t fruitful, I’d move on to a warning or a PIP. From there, Linda has to decide whether being able to move around whenever she wants is more important than keeping a job where moving around isn’t one of the job functions.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t really get the issue here? Is Linda getting up and physically walking away? Or is she just standing up and stretching kind of thing?

      Because you can’t really expect people to sit in their chair for eight hours.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        From the letter, a major part of Linda’s job was to be available for clients when they came in, but it sounded like she was leaving her desk for extended periods and doing other things in the office (including someone else’s job), so that when clients came in she wasn’t there. So it wasn’t a matter of simply needing to stretch occasionally, but a refusal to actually do her job.

        1. valentine*

          Is Linda getting up and physically walking away?
          Yes.

          Because you can’t really expect people to sit in their chair for eight hours.
          You can, and it’s better than forcing them to stand, but Linda went from zero to a million. She doesn’t want to stretch. She wants to do active work that belongs to a coworker. She’s had plenty of time to ask, not take. Instead, she’s insubordinate and her manager’s useless.

          A bigger problem than waiting clients is those who can’t or won’t wait.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I usually say, “Excuse me, I did not hear you.”
      This gives people a second to realize what they just said. IF they are silly enough to repeat that then we chat.

      I do think that expecting an employee to stay in one spot for the duration of their work day is ridiculous. I would expect the company to have a hard time keeping that position filled. As a supervisor I would be very interested in redesigning the job IF possible. However, her supervisor can say to her that she was told she would be expected to remain in one spot for her full work day before she was hired. And then she agreed to that. Then I would ask if this is something she can do. To my boss I would say, “This is something we are going to keep going through until we figure out a better way to handle things.” But I would not let her know I was saying that.

    12. LGC*

      I ranted about this on Thursday night because I feel like I have a couple right now.

      What makes it more difficult is that I work with people with disabilities…including myself. (I have autistic spectrum disorder.) So what holds me back sometimes is that I can’t really tell for sure “I won’t” from “I can’t.” (Often, they can’t either, which makes things even more fun!)

      Honestly, I tend to just start with assuming an “I won’t” is really an “I can’t, but I want to front and look hard about it because I learned not to admit weakness.” (Which is another issue entirely.) So I’ll sometimes turn it around and ask why they can’t. Or I might have to listen for clues. Sometimes the answer is right there.

      If that doesn’t work, the tools I’ve used have been progressive discipline, mostly. So yeah, I’m not opposed to the dreaded write up. It’s a bit demeaning on both sides (well, definitely for the employee, and it’s not exactly a picnic for me either), but sometimes it needs to be spelled out.

  24. Long-time AMA Lurker*

    Sending out an introvert SOS: I moved into a new position at work (a team needed help and it just fell into place), and y’all, it is a job for an extrovert. Think project management-type responsibilities where every task involves talking to someone or setting up a meeting. I am so missing my prior, much more independent job. And my partner and all my friends keep asking to spend more time with me, and by the time I get home, I just CAN’T. I am exhausted and want to go hide in a cave for a month.
    Has anyone – especially if you’re an introvert – transitioned from a more independent, analytical role to a people role and feel like sharing advice? Going back to the old role is not really an option. I feel kind of crushed and stuck.
    To make things more complicated, my partner works solo from home, so he is all geared up to see me when I get home, and I just want to curl in a blanket with a book :(

    1. Jenny*

      Yes! I’ve been there, and that job lasted for five years before another opportunity came along. I was working on a customer call center, so a lot of phone calls. I swore every time it rang. However, that experience gave me skills i would never have sought out and I’m so grateful that I was able to flex that deep introversion. I tried to really utilize my time off the phone to keep to myself, I used each interaction as a one on one, rather than look at the volume of people i was interacting with each day, and really worked to build rapore on each call. It was exhausting, but I became really good at it and I use that customer service based skill in every job since.

    2. OtterB*

      Build in recuperation times as much as you can. I know you say all the tasks involve talking to someone or setting up a meeting, but is there anything non-peopley that you can lump together to define a few short time blocks at work where you aren’t talking to people?

      And you’ve got to have an explicit conversation with your partner about needing time to decompress before you’re ready to interact.

      Also, it will probably get easier as you get used to the job and some of the conversations become routine rather than always having to be figuring out how to deal with the people on the fly.

      1. CB*

        +1. I’m a introvert-for-life and my job has expanded from mostly clerical tasks to an expanded portfolio of fundraising, project management, and being the “friendly face” at our events. I am thankful for my boss advocating for me to be promoted, but I’m now so much more protective of my time outside of work to allow for sufficient recharging.

    3. Dana B.S.*

      Introvert here. I have worked in so many people-centric jobs and they haven’t killed me yet.
      1. Focus on the good in your new role. What are you learning? Who are you meeting? What will this do for your future career? Over time, especially if you embrace it as a welcome challenge, you will start to get a little more comfortable.
      2. Working with others is a bit like weight lifting. At first, you can barely manage to life the smallest weights. As you continue working, it gets easier. No, you won’t be a champion weight-lifter, but you’ll be able to manage much better over time.
      3. Know what you need. Time with friends and your partner is different than time at work, so it does take a little navigating to find a good balance.
      4. Make your needs clear to those in your life. If possible, give your partner a head’s up by text around lunchtime: “It’s already been an exhausting day! Is it okay if I skip out on doing x?” Or just give a general guideline: “If I have, x, y, & z at work in the same week, then I will not be able to make plans all weekend. I need Friday night on my own, need to sleep in on Saturday, and will need to be able to prepare for the new week starting Sunday afternoon. We can do Saturday afternoon/evening activities and a brunch outing on Sunday.”

    4. North Wind*

      Can you block out regular daily chunks in your work calendar that is inviolable cave time? Time when you take care of tasks that can be done without interaction?

      I feel you! I worked as an analyst/data person most of my life, and steadfastly refused all requests/pressure to go into management or project management for this reason.

      In one job, I came to learn our database in great depth (yes, I would read the SQL of all the backend procedures in my spare time). When we ramped up with a bunch of new employees, I was happy to host trainings, but I would also be barraged with questions all day (in person and via email) as folks tried to get their work done. Introvert’s hell. This was in a huge corporate environment, but my manager let me set my hours. For quite some time I actually came into work at 3 PM, had “office hours” until 5 or 6 so anyone could swing by and ask me anything, and then worked through the evening until 11 or so in sweet, blessed, empty office peace (this was before the days when working remotely was common). I’m a night owl and this worked for me. Not for everyone obviously, but maybe some version of “office hours” vs “cave time” can be built into your schedule.

      Anyway, good luck, I commiserate!

    5. nonymous*

      Plan out your breaks. Embrace a reputation of being that person who reads/jogs/naps in the car. This will train people to leave you alone for specific intervals, and you can extend that by scheduling your non-people tasks right around these breaks to extend the recharge period. Also is there any opportunity to reduce the back-and-forth? Tricks such as scheduling meetings at regular intervals (teapot designers meet Tues @9 and talk about whatever projects we are juggling), having a system for gathering agenda items, and deferring ad-hoc discussion to the meeting (if possible) can cut down on requests.

      Also, can you ask your partner to schedule their out-of-house stuff for right when you’re getting home? When I worked from home and hubs was commuting, he would email me the grocery list (or whatever errands were necessary) as he left work. If I didn’t have errands, I’d go walk the dogs. That way the first 30-60 minutes home was his own.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Get the heck away from your office if you can, because if you are there to bug, you will be bugged.

      2. Spooncake*

        Yes. I recently got promoted into a junior management role from a fairly independent research role, and the transition was exhausting until I figured out how to give myself a break from people during the day. It really helps to get away from your desk during your lunch break- we have a dedicated break room with confortable furniture so I spend mine curled up in a corner with a book and after the first few days of “ooh let’s see what you’re reading” everyone just accepted that Spooncake is a nerd who reads about elves on her break instead of chatting. And then when I get back there are usually admin tasks to do, so that’s basically a good couple of hours in the middle of the day that can be blocked out as Not People Time. It’s a little thing, but it makes a big difference.

    6. periwinkle*

      Read Susan Cain’s “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking” and take her observations/advice to heart. In particular, consider her strategies of communicating/negotiating the recovery time that you need after a day of engaging in work-required extrovert behavior.

    7. Jessica B*

      Lots of great advice here, and I’ll add that it took me about 6 months to feel less exhausted when I first went through a change like this. That might sound like a lot, but everyone is different–your adjustment period could be much faster–but it’s nice to know you’ll get used to it in time!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I did adjust to it also. Self-care was very important to me. And my quiet time before bed, just spent reading was more precious than gold. I did think that work conversations and personal conversations were two different things and pulled on me differently.

  25. Insert Witty Name Here*

    My coworker “Minerva” seemed wary of me from the start. She makes conversation, but will ignore what I say and pay attention to my other coworkers. She went out of her way to train the new male hires in the department, but seems cold and is very short with me.

    She seems to want to one up me in front of the boss sometimes by turning her work in early, but we do different things. She seems competitive with me compared to the others.

    She can be social at times and I try to make a little small talk with her because we sit across from each other, but otherwise I just keep myself busy and stay focused on work.

    I know not everyone will like me, but when it is obvious like this it makes me nervous. I also need to be trained by her and worry that she either won’t train me or it will be rushed through and I still won’t know what I’m doing.

    I’ve dealt with this before and not to bash my own gender or generalize, but in my experience, it’s usually an older woman- the ones nearing retirement. They’re friendly with men and women their age, but they treat younger women differently.

    Again, I’ve dealt with coworkers like this before, but I’m still at a loss. Is there anything that I should be doing? Any thoughts? Any stories?

    1. OhBehave*

      I had a feeling before you provided the info that this was an older woman doing this! She may be feeling like she’s slowing down, so she needs to show she can keep up with the younger hires, etc. Some fear is that as one ages in the workplace, they become expensive to the company (pay, benefits, etc.), therefore, the first to be let go. She’s competing with you for relevance.
      Continue to treat her nicely. There is nothing you are doing to get this treatment (as long as there really isn’t). She may very well leave out some training details. When she starts to train you, keep your eyes open in order to catch any omissions that seem obvious. Can you play up her experience and your appreciation of her help? This may feel like sucking up, and it is a bit. It just depends upon how much her treatment of you is a worry. Is there anyone else who knows about the procedures used in training? You could run it past them once you start working on those tasks just to make sure (because Minerva is so busy.).

      1. Shoes On My Cat*

        As Behave said above, and when she is training you, just turn on the Voice Memo app on your phone. That way if she runs through stuff quickly, you can go back later and listen to her comments. She may not want to be thorough but if she has been doing this long enough, decent training will be automatic and she won’t be able to filter herself easily, just go through it quickly. Good luck!

    2. Brazilian Hobbit*

      I did have someone like this at a previous job. She wasn’t a bad person at all, but she did seem to feel threatened by me. I was pretty young them, but I managed to have a 1 x 1 with her and tell her I admired her work ethic and how efficient she was (it was true – she had some relationship problems with most of our coworkers, but she was very competent) and asked her to mentor me so I could make her work easier. I’m not sure how helpful that is for you, but it did disarm her and put her in a position where she felt she had control. Of course, we did the same kind of work, so you may need to adjust the approach to something that makes sense for your positions!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I was 48 working with a mixed group ranging for 17 up to older than me at that time. I got strange comments such as “Older people should not have to move that heavy stuff” or, “older people should not have to work as hard as younger people” etc, from YOUNGER people. I was 48 not 98.

      Watch your own deferential treatment. Maybe you share a joke freely with others but when she comes around you get all serious. Hey, it happens, younger me did this. Laugh when something is truly funny, share a funny story with her. Shared laughter is a moment when people let their guard down and it can help to ease tensions. It can be a reliable tool to work with.

      Try not to get too stiff or formal when she appears or in your ordinary conversations with her. Once in a while I would work with someone who, I dunno, thought I was made of glass. I felt I had to tighten up what I was doing to match her so SHE would be comfy with me. Is there a possibility that you are a little more formal with her and she is reacting to that?

      I think the one thing that I saw that kind of made me sad was The Giggle. “Hey, NSNR, do you EVEN know what X is?” Where X is something in their generation’s culture but not my generation’s culture.” I would answer truthfully yes or no and then I would get The Giggle. I remember being that younger person and my older generation would say, “Do you even know what Y is?”. It’s fine to ask someone if they know what a particular thing is if you want to talk about it with them. It’s not fine to ask them for entertainment purposes, just to see if they know or not. I don’t think you are doing this, but it’s good to realize some people are and she has no way of knowing who does not do this.

      So these are samples of what happens. Nothing terrible, clearly. But just stuff that is a little strange. I was less than 45 when I first started noticing this stuff. I can only conclude that each decade has its own unique set of drawbacks.

      And going in the opposite direction, some older people are just jerks. Some older people are just awkward. And some older people are okay. Not much different than the rest of the population in that regard. The first thing I would try is to decide to be my own comfortable self around her. See if she relaxes if you relax.

  26. Sleepy*

    I was temporarily promoted to an Interim Director position—and I don’t think I want the permanent job. I just found through the grapevine that a colleague, now direct report, think she should have the permanent job. The thing is, she was passed over as Interim Director for a reason. Now I started wondering if she’s trying to undermine me at every turn. Any words of wisdom? I don’t have a super specific question but I’m struggling with adjusting to my new responsibilities (it’s only been a week) and I don’t want to compete with her over a job I don’t want.

    1. OtterB*

      How long are you supposed to be Interim Director? If you know why your colleage was passed over for the role, can you work with her on developing that area so she could be ready to take the Director position that you don’t want?

      1. Sleepy*

        I like this idea…lack of people management skills was one reason I heard named, which I think she can definitely improve with practice, but “immaturity” was another, and I’m not sure quite what that’s referring to or how to target it.

        1. ten-four*

          ooh, I disagree. This is news through the grapevine; no need for you to take on the added labor of supporting a person who was passed over and who you fear will undermine you to get the job!

          I’d get super clear on what your outcomes are for this interim, and focus on delivering them. It is not your job to mentor this person up, and in fact it might annoy the people who passed her over on purpose. If you find that she does attempt to undermine you, you can address that as it comes. But for now: work with whoever assigned you to the role to get very clear on your goals, figure out a way of tracking and reporting them, and establish a channel for getting ongoing support (weekly 1:1’s or something).

          And hey, stay open to the possibility that you might want the role once you’re a little more settled in. No doubt the first weeks are tough, but you were given the role for a reason and it’s at minimum a good opportunity to see what it’s all about. Don’t let grumpy people sour you on an opportunity!

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            It is not your job to mentor this person up, and in fact it might annoy the people who passed her over on purpose.

            This is a very good point. You don’t want to look like you’re undermining the people above you. And if you truly don’t want the position in the future, but you think the coaching idea is a good one, ask your boss whether that would make sense. By doing this, you’ll get more information about why your new direct report was passed over for the interim position and may be able to get buy in to coach the report if the two of you agree that this role won’t suit you permanently.

        2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          I dislike this idea, because if she is that awful (immature, poor people management skills) you do not want to be grooming her to be your own boss, which is what will happen if she is given the permanent job at the end of your interim period.

          Especially since those characteristics of immature and poor people management mean that she is likely to see you as a threat, and then work to push you out of her department.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Oh, yeah – that’s another good point. I would not want someone with those characteristics managing me.

            1. Sleepy*

              Yeah…quite honestly, I would probably leave if she was my boss. And knowing that she was a second choice the higher-ups had concerns about for the position pushed me to take it on, even though I was not 100% enthusiastic about doing so.

              Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

      2. OtterB*

        I was thinking more in terms of weaknesses like lack of knowledge of some specific subarea, not more general and harder-to-fix issues. Agreed that if she’s the kind of person you wouldn’t want to work for, then you don’t want to be in the business of trying to get her into the job.

        Good luck with it. “Interim” things are hard.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Some people think confidence is just in us naturally. I believe confidence is developed and grown by a deliberate effort. I don’t believe there is much natural confidence out there. I know natural confidence comes around far too rarely for my own needs. ha!

      How to start to build confidence. In situations like this decide that until you have proof she is undermining you, then you should assume she is not undermining you. You are waiting on proof.
      The truth always bubbles to the surface. Don’t worry about it, if she is pulling a stunt here, you WILL find out.

      Focus on the work itself. Focus on doing your best today. When interacting with her be logical, be clear and be transparent. Talk with her as if the whole world can hear what you are saying. This will help you carry on in a professional manner.

      Work through some of the aspects of this setting. You have been at it one week. After another week you will probably feel a tiny bit different. And after a third week you may again feel another change. This is not stagnant. That knot in your stomach will work loose.
      The other aspect to look at is her wanting your job. You could soul search and see if you privately DO want the job but are having some serious concerns. You could talk those serious concerns over with your boss and see what she says. Perhaps you find that you still do NOT want the job but your core concern is you do NOT want to work for HER. Maybe something to consider is to ask your boss how you can assist in the search for the permanent person. Participating in the search may quell your concerns when you see first hand they are not even looking at her application. Or you may be able to point out qualifications or abilities the person should have that the boss has not thought of yet. Perhaps you can influence the situation so you end up with a great boss.

  27. rayray*

    I’m curious what people think on this. I’m 30, and the youngest in my small office by at least 15 years. I’m also pretty new, so I had to learn the office rules and culture which are very different than my last job.

    When I was still new, I was seen responding to a text message and scolded like a child to not be on my phone. Fair enough, it’s not unreasonable to aks people that. However, in conversations with a couple friends we talked about how we get in trouble for sending a text, but our Gen X and Boomer coworkers have zero qualms about taking personal calls whether at their desk or in the hall/conference room. In my office, my boss who scolded me frequently has personal conversations that can be 10-25 minutes long. My other Gen Y friends said this exact thing happens at their jobs–no texting allowed even though it only takes a few seconds, but phone calls with their spouse or long daily conversations complaining about the less-than–stellar landscaping work done at their home? Totally fine! Why is this? I really want to understand the logic here.

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      I think it’s this idea if you are making a phone call, you are conducting some private business that is important and above board. Like arranging a doctor’s appointment or something to do with your family or calling the bank or whatever. The phone call lifts the importance of the matter, at least in how it’s perceived.

      Texting is perceived as being chit-chatty, non-crucial, frivolous. Even though people also schedule appointments via text (that’s how I communicate with my physiotherapist!) and have urgent things to do with family come up via text and all kinds of things. You’re not just sending memes and texting “lol” to your friends, but that’s the impression I think that comes attached to texting.

      I’m also in my early 30’s and I’ve actually started doing more short calls if possible during work hours because it “looks better” to dip out for 5 mins to call than be seen texting. It is a weird standard.

      1. rayray*

        That makes sense! Most often, text conversations I have are more chit-chatty, but sometimes it is to confirm plans or something else less chit-chatty. Tbh, the personal calls seem to be more personal in nature. I’ve definitely taken necessary calls for appointments and such, but others definitely seem to just be chatting. But still, the personal conversations here can go on forever. That’d where I get kinda lost… Why my boss thinks it’s okay to think I’m slacking if I take a few seconds off to send a text but she talks people’s ears off complaining about everything(she’s a “Karen” type lady)

        To be fair, she had other qualities that make her a bad boss and when I got into other issues here, kind readers advised me to look for something else.

      2. Kat in VA*

        This is so odd to me. Texting is a fast way to get my exec, his directors, other people in the office. Usually I’ll text someone in the office if I need a quick answer to a question and they’re not on IM (not everyone remembers to sign in), or I don’t want to wait for email, or don’t have time to walk to their desk.

    2. Anongradstudent*

      What on earth kind of job doesn’t let you get texts but allows personal phone calls? Maybe the next time this comes up, you can ask her/him directly why they allow personal calls but not texts, when texts would be much quicker and less distracting to coworkers.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        Latch key.

        Personal phone calls had to be done via the land line. If we had cell phones out, it was 1 write up and the next time fired.

        We lost a lot of 20 to 30 year olds who thought it was a joke. The supervisor from head quarters pop in and write them all up.

        It was cited as a privacy concern, and parents complained if staff was on their phone.

        I used to keep all my arts and crafts notes/plans on my phone. Didn’t get a write up, only a warning. Then had to hard copy that whole mess out, and put it into a binder.

        I was 40 at the time, and base supervisor was in her early 60s. She hated mobile phones, and the policy is still there 10 years later.

    3. Teapot Librarian*

      I haven’t experienced this myself, so don’t have an answer. But I do agree with you on the texting vs phone calls issue. I have an employee who will answer his phone when he’s in a meeting with me! It’s totally a power play on his part. If he got a text and responded while in a meeting with me, that would more than likely be totally fine. But when his phone rings, he just pulls it out and answers it. (If my phone rings when I’m in a meeting with my boss, I’ll check who it is just to make sure it’s not something time sensitive, but if it IS, I say to her “oh, this is X person and I need to take it for Y reason. Do you mind?”)

      1. Shoes On My Cat*

        You need to shut that down! I think Alison had a post this year about managing a jerk like that! Something about walking out yourself with a comment for the jerk to come to her office when he’s finished with his call. That is when you tell him “I need you to avoid taking calls when we are in a meeting.” Then when a thorough reaming for insubordination when he repeats his bratty behavior.

    4. Earthwalker*

      As a boomer, I hate this too. My nearest colleague used to have long, loud shouting matches over the phone with friends and kids. No one ever said she shouldn’t do that on company time. I would so much have preferred nice quiet texting.

      1. rayray*

        I’m of the opinion that personal calls/texts and also conversations with coworkers should be totally acceptable. HOWEVER, I think there needs to be courtesy to others – so take the personal calls to the hall/conference room. Keep the texting brief. Keep the conversations brief. So long as work gets done, what’s the problem?

        But all in all, COURTESY is most important. I don’t care to hear people whining about this or that, or fighting with their spouse, or whatever it is.

    5. QCI*

      Your company culture seems to have the mindset that you can only do two things on a phone, “talking” and “playing”. If you’re not speaking into it you’re playing on it, and there’s no playing on company time young man!

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I’m Gen X and there is no logic to it that I can see. I’d rather have a coworker deal with a thing through a quick text than to have to wait for them to get off a long personal call, or listen to their end of it for half an hour.

    7. Utah Ex-Pat*

      X-er here.
      I’m right there with you. At my last annual evaluation at my former employer, I was chastized for texting on my phone… from my boss who took daily 15 minute phone calls from her grandson. That was the day I started updating my resume. Mote. Eye. Beam.

    8. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      One thing that chats with co-works or personal tangents on business calls that may be buying them more favour in your workplace is that they are a way to build/maintain a relationship with a colleague. That is why they may be tolerated more. Yes you can do that via text but I suspect that your boss is someone who doesn’t text frequently so he has not seen that yet.

      You been given feedback that texts are frowned on. Even though you find them a good communication practice, you management does not. I am not sure you have the ability to change that so you might have to curtail that for now.

    9. Jenny2*

      Gen X here and every other Gen Xer I know would rather be drawn and quartered than place a phone call but maybe that’s geographic.

      Sometimes I get caught up in group texts and one quick text becomes 45 texts that may or may not require my attention and that’s a whole other time suck along the lines of a 25-minute phone call. My quick texts easily add up to the length of some of the personal calls you’re describing, just over the course of the whole day rather than in one go. And then I think us olders worry about divided attention because of the situations I just described. I often just put my phone in a drawer since I read a study that said just having your phone out distracts you dramatically.

      I mean, what you’re describing is totally ridiculous and sounds like it’s just that someone decided texting was bad and phone calls were ok based on who knows what.

      1. emmelemm*

        Agreeing that I and most Gen Xers I know would die before making a single phone call. I, myself, prefer email, so I’m not quite one of the hip kids, but texts are fine.

        Also about the “bad landscaping”/fighting with spouse, I’d much rather you be in the corner texting angrily than that I can hear you even from my cubicle.

        1. I prefer anon*

          I’m an X and I love the phone – I spend hours every week talking to my sisters and my best friends. Texting? I hate it! I come out in a rash of anxiety at the thought.

          I think the problem with texting in the workplace is that to the observer it looks just like surfing social media. I also think it is unprofessional to take too many non-urgent personal calls. (Ring your doctor for an appt fine, chat to your grandson every day, Good Lord!)

      2. Kat in VA*

        I hate phone calls. I’d hate them even if I didn’t have a speech impediment that makes it difficult for the person on the other end to understand me.

        A fast text saying, “Hey, did you send in the PO for XYZ today?” versus calling them up, saying hey, how you doing, I have a quick question, blah blah blah conversation…minimum 2-5 minutes when all I need is a yes/no answer!

    10. Mop Head*

      Xer her, it’s absolutely company culture there. My Boomer bosses all spend a lot of time on personal calls, but no one has every complained about me responding to a text or being on my cell phone at my desk. I prefer that to people having loud conversations where everyone can hear them. Your boss is just inconsiderate and probably thinks you are playing a game.

    11. LilySparrow*

      GenX and you are right, it’s not logical.

      I think it’s a gut-level reaction to seeing someone looking at their phone instead of the outside world and the privacy of texting.

      If someone is having an annoying personal conversation, at least you know what they’re talking about. Whereas some older folks perceive texting as secretive. And it pushes the same emotional button as seeing their teenage kids texting at dinner.

      Not logical at all. It’s just a subconscious negative association.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Reaching way back, using the landline at work was either forbidden or very strict, limited personal use.

      Cell phones do not have this long history of tight rule. Additionally, cell phones are not company property and a landline is company property. This can lead to a “put the toy away” mentality.

      I think there is wide misconception that people use landlines sparingly but cell phones demand too much of people’s attention. The sparse use mentality dates back to times when there was just landlines. So yes, probably people do not double check to see if their assumptions (minimal usage) match reality (lots of usage).

      And I will add, for non-users the phone can drive a person nuts. I have a wonderful boss. But if she doesn’t have a phone call or text then the phone is going off because she has an alarm set for something. I’d guess the phone goes off every 15-20 minutes all day. It does not stop. Ever. And every time it goes off my train of thought totally derails. If both of us had cell phones then very little work would get done. I don’t say anything. She’s a wonderful boss and a good person.

    13. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      Here’s one reason I can think of–most people texting text a lot. While someone may make one personal call a day say, texts can fly back and forth all day long. I’m not saying it does but in my experience, my friends who text are texting constantly–not a 15 minute phone call but say 10-20 texts an hour which eats up time and is constantly a signal of not paying attention to many. I can wait until a call is done–but if I’m talking to someone about a work issue and they reply to a text or even read one, I know their attention is now split.

  28. Asking for a friend...*

    When everyone in work is at BEC level to you, does that make YOU the b”tch eating crackers??

    3. finally october*

      I feel it honestly does depend. Do you have a friend you can have a frank talk with and go over your own actions? If you’re nearing or at burnout, you might be dealing with people in an abrupt or rude manner that might be in just a feedback loop of eating crackers The Wrong Way.

    4. BeanCat*

      My first thought is if that’s the case, you may be burning out. Nearly every time that’s happened to me, it’s because I was burning out and needed some kind of outlet.

      I hope that helps!

    5. Yokohama Tires*

      For me, yes. When I notice that absolutely EVERYONE is getting on my nerves, I take a step back because that usually means I’m being the problem.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Because I am the common thread through all the stories/upsets. And because I can only change ME and no one else.

        Happily, I can say that most of the time when I have reached this point it is due to lack of rest. So at least I know why it’s happening and what to do about it. And, oh yeah, I keep my mouth shut and bury myself in a Big Project until it’s time to go home.

    6. Acornia*

      Not necessarily, but it’s possible.
      The difference is in how you’re treating others. If you’re coping with a duck-your-head and just do your job, people probably are not seeing that in you. If you’re dishing it out, too, then probably, yeah, you are.

    7. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If one person calls you a clown, ignore them.
      If two people call you a clown, start to wonder.
      If three people call you a clown, go take a good long look in the mirror and see if you gotta tone down the facepaint.

      In other words, if you’ve rubbed a whole lot of people the wrong way, then it’s really worth taking a long hard look at your own behavior and see what you’ve contributed to the situation. It’s not at all impossible that you’ve done nothing wrong and their attitude is wholly about them… but it’s equally not impossible that you’ve got some room to improve how you work with others.

      1. Kat in VA*

        My dad has an accurate – if inelegant – saying for just this situation:

        If everyone around you is an asshole, the reality is you’re the asshole.

    8. CheeryO*

      I mean, is there something about your role that makes life difficult for people? If not and it’s purely an interpersonal thing, then yeah, maybe. In general, if problems follow you wherever you go, then you’re the problem, either because of your actions or because of the way you’re interpreting things – maybe you’re a chronic over-analyzer?

    9. fhqwhgads*

      The usual cliche would say absolutely yes. I think the reality is there are two possibilities:
      You’re in a really bad environment.
      It’s you.

      But it’s very very difficult for you to determine which is the case.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        It’s also more of a sliding scale than a hard binary. It could be 5% you and 95% your office, or vice versa.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Buuut… if it is everyone in the environment and not me, that circles back to “It’s ME”. And the reason is it’s me because I have not gotten myself out of there YET. I know these people are jerks and I still persist in trying to keep the job. That is a “Me” problem.
        Good news: I can fix this.

    10. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      If it’s everyone, that limits the possibility of finding a possibly neutral party who may be able to advise if it IS you or a toxic environment.
      Sometimes it’s not so much seeing the wood for the trees, but being smacked in the head by branches while looking for leaves.
      (sorry for the mangled metaphor!)

    11. anon9*

      I’m giving you a no, esp if you are self-aware. Sometimes the culture/environment and you do not click and that’s okay.

    12. nonymous*

      You might be growing in a different direction than the rest of your team sees your position.

      My new supervisor thinks that my job is 95% maintenance and IT support (on my position description this is only like 20%) so basically all my interesting work has dried up. It really sucks to have my primary interaction with the team be when something didn’t work b/c they couldn’t follow directions shown in screenshots (even when all they have to do is copy and paste). It is not good, and I just got ghosted after an interview, so definitely a low point. Right now I focus on being professional and trying to be faster/better at reading the room during meetings.

    13. What’s with Today, today?*

      I’m not going to say definitely yes, but I am a big believer in common denominators.

    14. Dittany*

      Very possibly! …but also very possibly not. What caused you to dislike them so much, and how have you responded?

      If you’d rather not air all your dirty work laundry in a public forum, talk it over with a neutral (and non-gossipy) third party, being as objective as possible. (I mean, you won’t be objective. You can’t be. But steer clear of, like, sweeping moral judgments about how one of the Bitches Eating Crackers organized her pens.)

  29. Seifer*

    Lately at work, there’s been this weird anxiety about emails. I’m the type of person where I’ll send whatever because the way I see it is that I’m not slipping in a, “by the way you all suck and I hate you. Please advise on the matter above. Thanks.” so… it’s probably fine. But the other day my boss micromanaged… a two sentence email that I wrote. He had me revise it so many times that I finally sat back and was like, okay, do you want to write the email? It’s weird.

    Just a rant, but also, does anyone have crippling anxiety over emails? I have GAD but it doesn’t apply to emails, apparently.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      I used to have anxiety about work emails. It helped to note imperfections in bosses’ emails. Not in a gotcha way, just to see what a realistic standard was.

      I have shared before about how my boss is obsessive about saving emails. I try to roll with it as much as I can.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I don’t have crippling anxiety over emails, but definitely anxiety! I feel such pressure to say *exactly the right thing in exactly the right way*. (In part because communications is something people pay me for, I feel pressure to communicate perfectly all the time.) Be friendly but not too casual. Get to the point but don’t sound terse. Explain the situation clearly but not too much detail. Don’t use minimizing language for normal requests (ex. “sorry to bother you”). Sound authoritative yet not demanding. Avoid using “I” too many times, or “you”. It’s enough to drive a woman insane. It can take me a long time — too much time — and a lot of editing passes to get emails out. It’s a huge energy suck.

      This has taken up so much space in my brain for so many years, I’ve considered writing a multi-part series on how to write better work emails.

      1. Filosofickle*

        Forgot to note, sometimes this amount of effort is worthwhile! Especially in client-facing emails, it’s important to get it right and if that means multiple drafts and getting input from others, it’s worth doing. I just wish I could get faster at the less important ones.

    3. emmelemm*

      I’m the horrible person who will write five paragraph emails and I have no shame about it.

      Part of it, though, is that I often have to explain a detailed process to someone, and I’d rather type a long email about it than talk to them on the phone because I have phone anxiety!

      1. Filosofickle*

        LOL, I have phone anxiety too, which is another reason I put so much damn effort into getting emails right! Sometimes 5 paragraphs is warranted, if it’s technical or complex. Gives them something to refer to (assuming they will, which sometimes they won’t).

  30. Amber Rose*

    Today in “Good Sense Prevails” management has politely but firmly shut down a request to have prayer before dinner during the Christmas party. My husband made a shocked pikachu face that anyone would even suggest such a thing. It’s pretty funny, the differences between our tiny company and his enormous government organization.

    We’re in the midst of trying to decide which charity to support this year and it’s tough because management wants to make it fun by having us collect items and stuff, but most charities would honestly prefer cash. And the ones who don’t, we already supported recently and we try to do a different one every year. Picking a charity has become a thing now.

    So, are there ways we can make raising straight cash more fun for everyone? Last year we had a HUGE event with a silent auction and stuff but they want to scale it back since last year was special circumstances.

    1. Rainy days*

      Thank you for recognizing that charities need cash. Sending you support!

      Would your employees enjoy getting sponsorships for some kind of activity? Could be silly games rather than athletic competitions, like get sponsored $1 from friends and family for each every inch of height in a paperclip tower building competition.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’m not sure, I feel like the sponsorships thing is gonna be too much work for them to take part. People are pretty lazy.

    2. Third or Nothing!*

      Back in my VBS days they used to raise money for charity by having the kids bring in coins to fill up buckets. Heaviest bucket wins! Some people really got into it. At the end of the week there was a whole weighing ceremony and everything.

    3. DataDiva*

      Did you ever do penny wars in school? Everyone brings in spare change for a week/month/whatever. Each department has its own jar. Pennies count as positive and silver counts as negative, so you can put a dime in another department’s jar to counteract 10 of their pennies. I remember it being fun in elementary school, and thinking about it now I’d probably get really into it if we did it in the office!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Pennies don’t exist anymore though! And since 90% of our employees are in one department, it feels like it would be weighted against us. Maybe we could organize teams. xD

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Pennies exist. But you can’t spend them in a vending machine so I’d donate the jar from my bureau at home in a flash.

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          You can do coins versus bills (coins count for you and total up the dollar amount, bills count against you and subtract from the dollar amount (so you put them in other people’s jars)), but I suspect in an office environment that might make everyone’s jars go negative since the average officeworker is much more likely to have a spare $20 they’re willing to throw in a jar than a high school student is, and also be less likely to have a bunch of coins on them.

          Maybe do it by favorite sports team rivalries rather than by work-related teams, if there’s a good sport for that in your neck of the woods. Keeps everyone from ganging up on a work-related unit or team, and the super-competitive people who are likely to get into a penny war are also pretty likely to have a favorite sports team.

      2. Temperance*

        My office did this, and the woman named Penny had the honor of having these stacked at her desk. lol

    4. Liane*

      How about the company lets the employees vote for the charity, with the ballot being a handful of charities the company has vetted–and the COMPANY then makes a donation?

      1. Amber Rose*

        We are voting for the charity next week. Everyone has this week to make suggestions and next week we vote. The company typically matches our donation, but we use the money raising process as “team building” so we can’t skip over that bit.

        1. Kat in VA*

          We have a silent auction at our Christmas party. The directors and execs donate nice, relatively high-dollar items (think things like Ring doorbells, good whiskey, good Scotch, good bourbon…we lean toward alcohol) and people write down their bids on a piece of paper in front of the item. Bidding can get fierce at the end!

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Let people buy an extra day off for $XX, have lunch with the CEO or boss for $YY, sign up for an office day at the movies for $ZZ, wear jeans to work on specific day for $5 – things like that that make sense for your office. Depending on the category, you can either limit the number (four can have lunch with the CEO) or anyone who pays the price (wear jeans) depending on the category.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Raffle off a reserved parking spot for specific periods of time. Parking spots are huge incentives in an employee-initiative program at my facility.

    6. WellRed*

      We’ve done silent auction as well as raffling off stuff. We are a tiny company so last year, our planner im implemented some fun, short games (I actually hate games, but it was fun) that we had to pay $1 to play (think guessing at what the person is drawing, guessing the number of chocolates, Christmas music and movie trivia (please note, we all celebrate Christmas.)

    7. LKW*

      Have you tried Donor’s Choose? Teachers submit requests for financial support for their classrooms (e.g. We need $250 for new books and a reading rug). You could pick a set of similar requests/funds and then every team gives to one.

    8. Aphrodite*

      How about a company Giving Tree, the kind where you choose families/people to give stuff to that they have requested. (I would support a senior one as seniors tend to not ask or if they do, to ask for practical items, but others might prefer families with children or teens.) It could be money but I would be far more inclined to do something like that rather than hand over cash.

      I don’t know if this helps but I wanted to share the idea.

      1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

        A previous company where I worked did this. I always enjoyed taking part.

    9. nonymous*

      Do you have any photographers in the company? You could just do a fundraiser calendar or even “team” t-shirts?

      One thing that used to go over well when I lived in the midwest are those discount coupon/gift cards things. iirc Hy-vee (grocery store) used to do this thing where people could buy gift cards for face value and Hy-vee would donate 5% to the designated charity.

    10. Llellayena*

      The first think that popped into my mind was a holiday money tree. Provide an empty tree, paper clips and ornament hooks and have a “tree decorating” over a week or so. You might be able to find ways to fold dollar bills into ornaments if you want to be fancy (dollar bill origami?). But then someone has to unfold them at the end…

    12. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Can you do something like a mini-carnival at the staff party where people use coins to play the games? Like, penny-can from Cougar Town or other kinds of games, and then all the coins people have used to play the games become the donation?

    13. Anono-me*

      Can you pick three or four Charities and have people vote with money. For example have a tin for Save the Kitties and a tin for Save the Puppies and tin for Save the Humans. And after a week whichever tin has the most money gets all the money.

      Once you pick the charity, you could have ‘Which is better’ tins. For example you can have two donation tins with pictures of Coke vs Pepsi or Apple vs Droid or dogs vs. cats or whatever combination you think of or find on Pinterest. People would vote with their spare change. Each day you could report who had won the previous day and how much money has been raised.

      Another thing you could do is have pictures of what different dollar amounts would fund. For example, a $15 donation =feed a puppy for a month and with a cute picture of a puppy and a bowl of food. Or $100 donation= keep a baby in diapers for a month and a cute picture of a baby in diapers.

  31. Rainy days*

    Rant: my boss, the Board President, makes comments about “women” which aren’t sexual harassment but are so, so, irritating. “Women are better at buying gifts.” “Women love to wear shoes.” I just started reporting to him and the more I interact with him the more I detest him.

    1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      I hate this trash. There is a dude in my office who will loudly boom “I’ll hold open the door for all of you. Report me to HR if you care! Chivalry is not dead!” The guy who you mention probably also participates in microaggressions like assuming the women in the office should plan all the parties, circulate the cards, order “nice” things for the office – general “female-employees-make-an-office-a-home” assumptions. If you see his words trickling out into patterns like these, or see any of these things in writing, I would start documenting and send up a flag.

      1. Rainy days*

        Yeah, here’s some of our conversations, paraphrased:
        Him at a party for a departing team member: “Where is the gift?”
        Me: “I thought you were buying it.” (The gift was supposed to be from the board, and I am not on the board.)
        Him: “Oh, I thought you were buying it because it’s a woman thing.”
        Me: …
        ———-
        Later:
        Him: “Sorry for the confusion about the gift.”
        Me: “That’s okay, I’m happy to buy it, but I didn’t know you wanted me to.” [I wasn’t happy to do it, but he’s my boss.]
        Him: “I should have had my wife do it.”

        Arghghghghggh.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          My response: “It’s a learned skill, you can pick it up with a little time and thoughtfulness.”

    2. finally october*

      Ugh, that stuff sucks. Sorry you’re dealing with it.

      My dad does it and I just point out to him things like him owning more shoes than I do. (which he does.)

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      “Women love to wear shoes”

      Ah yes, as opposed to men who staunchly go barefoot everywhere.

      1. iglwif*

        lolol

        (I personally don’t particularly like wearing shoes, although I don’t have a death wish so I do wear them when I go out. One of my favorite things about working at home is that I get to spend most of the day in barefoot, or at least in socks.)

      2. Third or Nothing!*

        My first thought as well.

        Also, for the record, I am a woman and the only shoes I actually love to wear are my running shoes because it means I’m running, which is something I love.

      3. tangerineRose*

        I’d want to say “No, I went barefoot a lot as a kid, and at home I still don’t wear shoes.”

    4. OtterB*

      “Really? That hasn’t been my experience” is a low-key way of responding to this kind of junk.

        1. LKW*

          or when he responds with something like “Well my wife is better at gifts than me.” you can always say “Well I suppose every house divides its work differently.” as a casual toss off that no, not everyone behaves as boorishly as you.

    5. Gender-neutral in the making!*

      “Men are great at buying gifts too.” Followed by so many examples he’ll get sick of it.

      I have a male child with long hair that keeps getting mistaken for a girl. I used to say “he’s a boy” but the generic, “You know, boys can have long hair too” seems to work so much better, at least in our case.

      With my own parents, bless their hearts, I had to deal with things as child looking at a pink or red item at a store and them saying: “Don’t look at that one, that’s for girls”. No, Ma, boys can wear pink too.

      Don’t get me going on the censorship I do on so many stories we read to make them gender-neutral. “John wanted to get a car as his Christmas present, and his sister wanted a doll.” [Me, pause & frown – That’s funny, girls often like to play with cars and boys with dolls.]

      Here’s to hoping my child won’t say stupid things like your boss does when he’s older!

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        No reason not to go with some light editing! I seem to recall a story floating around the internet from a parent who was reading their child The Hobbit, and the child decided that Bilbo ought to be a girl — so the parent went ahead and read the story with the gender swap. The legacy of J.R.R. Tolkien was certainly not harmed, and giving kids something better than what the past has given us is no bad thing.

    6. Joielle*

      UGH that sounds so irritating. I know you’re not necessarily asking for advice, but I’d be tempted to treat that kind of statement as if he’d said “I personally am bad at [thing]” like:

      “Women love to wear shoes.”
      “Aw, I bet you could pick out nice shoes too.”

      “Women are better at buying gifts.”
      “I bet you could find a gift guide online! There are tons of ideas these days.”

      Probably don’t actually do that, you run the risk of getting sucked further into these crappy conversations… but who knows, maybe he would get sick of the advice and stop.

      1. WellRed*

        “Women love to wear shoes.”

        “I actually prefer to go barefoot but OSHA frowns on that in offices.”

        1. Teapot Compliance*

          As long as they meet ANSI or ASTM standards. Stop buying safety shoes from Wish and Amazon people!

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Oh, no, do that! It’s a good way to build rapport / have a conversation with your boss while *also* pushing back on his sexism.

    7. Asking for a friend...*

      My manager does this alllllll the time. A coworker brought her baby girl in to visit, and the baby took a liking to my manager. He: “Ah, she’s like all women, she can smell money.”
      Like, ew?? She’s a little baby! It has gotten to the extent that whenever he calls “Good morning ladies!” to me and my coworker, it profoundly irritates me. Cf my BEC question above lol

    9. YetAnotherUsername*

      The “women love to wear shoes” comment is just hilarious!

      Does he know a lot of barefoot men?

  32. ContemporaryIssued*

    Coffee milk problem! I am in charge of office supplies, which includes coffee and milk, perks of the office. We order half-and-half lactose-free milk and a less fatty, skim milk with lactose. Now one person asked me if we might experiment buying oat milk for the vegans and those trying to cut down on milk usage for environmental reasons. The company we order from has it so I shrugged and ordered it and a lot of people have been using it.

    But now we’re buying THREE different milks and it seems a bit excessive. I tried to do a survey on the lactose free vs skim milk last spring but the votes were literally 50-50 as to which people preferred and some people even wrote “continue buying both”. I don’t actually have a budget for office supplies so I just order whatever is asked, within reason.

    Is it fine so long as everybody’s happy? Should I be trying to consolidate milk purchasing to two types instead of three? I just feel like the more milks we are getting, the more I need to be on top of what’s running out.

    1. The cow goes Moo- ahem - ooo*

      1. Continue doing it because someone will always want the latest greatest. So realize today its vegan oats and tomorrow its something else.

      2. Everyone brings their own milk supplies, label them, and every 2 weeks, if they’re still in the fridge, throw them out. Milk isn’t a perk – it’s a preference.

      3. What’s next – three sugars, four sweeteners, five coffee types?

      1. Graphique Gresigner*

        Wow. Your No. 1 option is super condescending. FYI some people go vegan for health reasons, others for political reasons, yet others because they want to minimise their impact on our planet. Some for all three plus other reasons. It’s more work than being an omnivore and it definitely isn’t any shade of a latest greatest/faddy or fly-by-night option. Thank you for your time.

        1. LKW*

          I don’t think that was the intent. It was just that a few years ago it would have been soy milk. Then almond milk. Now it’s oat milk. In the future it could be cockaroach milk (No kidding -it’s a thing). So if the vegans agree on oat milk, great. If they decide almond milk later… ok while recognizing they may want something else later.

          1. Approval is optional*

            Why single out the vegans? A few years ago it was full fat milk, now it’s low fat, in the future it might be artificial fat. A few years ago it was just plain old cows milk, now it’s A2 milk, in the future – who knows. And ‘latest greatest’ is fairly pejorative IMO, so I think the intent was to have a dig at people who choose vegan options.
            And I doubt many vegans will be looking to replace anything with cockroach milk (what with them being living creatures and all).

            1. anon9*

              How are they being singled out? How is “latest greatest” pejorative? Milk alternatives are constantly evolving as more people move away from cow’s milk – it was soy, then almond and now oat is big. Maybe rice milk will see mainstream popularity in the future. This same flux hasn’t happened with cow milk at all – full-fat milk is just now re-gaining popularity and skim/low-fat milks have always been stable (now on the decline though). Most people just aren’t that particular about their cow milk because very few can tell the difference between them. Mentioning A2 milk doesn’t make sense – it’s just so niche.

              Either way, the ‘cow goes Moo- ahem – ooo*’s comment’s #1 could apply to milk drinkers as well. They are just suggesting OP be flexible as people’s tastes are always evolving. As you said, the milk-drinkers might all move onto ultra-filtered milk (low sugar milk) instead of skim or low fat. I imagine you are objecting to the “vegan oats” example but they are just responding to the new request in OP’s post…which was oat milk. I don’t think this was an attack on vegans or veganism.

      2. nacho*

        My office does have 2 sugars, 4 different flavors of sweetener, dairy and non-dairy creamer, and 3 coffee types. It’s not a big deal to buy what people want in order to make them happy, especially when all they want is a $3 bottle of flavored coffee sweetener.

        1. Kat in VA*

          Eeesh, for the Keurig we have: five regular and three decaf coffee types, four different espressos (two regular, two decaf), green tea, black tea, powdered and single serve liquid creamers in both regular and french vanilla for each, four different chemical sweeteners, regular sugar, and raw sugar.

    2. Schnoodle HR*

      How many people in the office? The answer would chagne on that. If we’re talking a dozen people…sheesh…but if you have 50 people…I’d continue with 3 milks.

      1. ContemporaryIssued*

        50 and growing! I guess it’s not that bad. People do love their coffee in this office. We have three pots drunk within the first hour.

    3. finally october*

      Is there any way to do a short term tracking of how frequently things run out (which you probably already have in your records) and then automate the ordering so you’re always getting cow milk every week, almond milk every two weeks, etc? and then if things start piling up in the fridge, canceling the recurrence? That way it’s more hands-off and not something you have to do, and can just add any more milk preferences to the list?

    4. Reba*

      I get that it makes a little more for you to manage… But you were already checking the levels on the dairy milks, right? And the lactose-free milk is due to people’s medical-dietary needs. I get that oat milk is trendy but avoiding dairy consumption, whether for veganism, cholesterol, or preference, is just as legitimate a dietary need.

      I really don’t think this is excessive or a problem.

      You can look at it as a small way your workplace is being accommodating to diversity and health needs.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Man, I got real excited that this was gonna be about the Rhode Island state drink for a moment there. Mm, coffee milk…

      But on topic, I think comparing the lactose-free to regular milk might have been not quite addressing the concern head on? It seems to me like non-dairy milk and lactose-free milk might be the better consolidation, if a consolidation is needed. But I also think that as long as you aren’t running over budget and haven’t been told to consolidate your milk offerings, it can’t hurt that much to go with the three options. I don’t see how checking the levels of 2 supplies rather than 3 would make an enormous difference in your life, although I could see it getting iffy if you wind up ballooning to half a dozen or more.

      It sounds to me like not having a budget isn’t helpful for you, because you don’t have a firm sense of what your limits actually are. “Within reason” can be usefully flexible, but can also be a frustrating lack of structure or expectations. Who determines what isn’t within reason? How answerable are you for your choices?

      1. Liane*

        I’d say do the just vegan and lactose-free milks. Milk treated with the lactase enzyme also last longer than regular milk, IME, around a month, So this would cut down waste over milk going bad.

        1. Approval is optional*

          I thought half and half was very different to skim milk. We don’t do half and half here so I’m prepared to be wrong though.

          1. WellRed*

            no, you’re right, half and half is way different than skim. As someone who likes half and half in my coffee, I can see I’d be bringing in my own.

          2. Natalie*

            I don’t think they are buying half-and-half, as in milk and cream mixed together, it seems to be referring to the proportions of the two different kinds of milk they’re buying.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Half-and-half lactose free milk is milk and cream mixed together, but with a lactose enzyme added to it to break down the lactose so as not to upset stomachs.

              Skim milk is milk that’s had all its fat removed, hence why it’s so disgustingly watery in coffee.

              OP, if you think the three milks are too much, and if the people who don’t have specific dietary restrictions generally don’t care what kind of creamer they have in their coffee, I’d keep ordering the half-and-half and the oat milk.

              1. Natalie*

                I’ve never heard anyone refer to half-and-half the dairy product as “half-and-half milk”, and the OP keeps referring to it as milk, hence my guess that they were talking about proportion. Unless you’re the OP, you’re just guessing too, so I’m not sure what’s up with the unnecessary and condescending milk lecture.

              2. ContemporaryIssued*

                I’m not American so I only used half-and-half as an indication of fat content! The lactose-free milk is more fatty than the skim milk. I now did some googling and realized I should’ve used “whole milk” since that’s a more accurate term to use for the fat percentage. I’ve been to the US and I always used half-and-half at coffee shops because it tasted delicious.

                You are right, though, the milks with dietary restrictions, not just preferences, should get priority. I will see if anybody reacts when skim milk runs out.

    6. Approval is optional*

      If people are using all three I’d keep ordering them. The 3 you order would seem to be too ‘different’ to consolidate into 2. If they’re all stored in the same place, I don’t think it should make much difference to the monitoring time. once people settle into their milk preference it might well fall into a schedule anyway. That doesn’t mean you have to add every additional product requested going forward of course, especially if they are pretty much the same as those you already order (eg one type of non-animal milk should be enough).

    7. Venus*

      If it is being used then I think it’s not unreasonable. The problem seems to be the ordering if one of them runs out, so maybe you could get them to be more proactive? Post something on the fridge which says “When the container is less than 1/4 full, please make a note of it on this sheet so that I can order it”, that way you aren’t always checking?

    9. Bree*

      Unless you’ve been told to cut back on the milk spend or notice an excessive amount going to waste, just keep getting all three. It’s an easy and inexpensive way to make people happy, which is a win.

      If you did have to cut back, you could get like, a 2% lactose-free milk, which seems like a halfway point. Also, I just think lactose-free milk tastes a bit better?

    10. Policy Wonk*

      Do you ever have to throw any out because it has gone bad? If so, stop buying that kind. Otherwise buy all three, as it sounds like people are using them.

    11. SomebodyElse*

      I would continue to do it… but the next request for something different then becomes
      “Sure we can order that but we’ll need to stop ordering one of the current ones, I’ll send out an survey and we’ll go with the top 3 choices.”

      If they balk, then remind them they are welcome to bring in their specialty milks on their own.

    12. zora*

      Do you really need to consolidate?
      Our office only has about 25 people and I think there are 5 different milks in the fridge right now.
      I think it’s a small thing (budget wise) that makes people feel more appreciated at work, that they can have the milk they want in their coffee. And people have different preferences and even physical reasons to need different milks.

      But also could you delegate the ‘being on top of’ part of it? Could you spread the word that people should come to you when their preferred milk is getting low, send you an email or something? That way you aren’t taking on extra work, but everyone gets their little perk of different milks.

      Just for comparison, we currently stock half and half (cow), whole milk (cow), oat milk, almond milk, soy milk.

    13. Aggretsuko*

      As long as there’s no budget issue, this is not worth arguing about. Keep the peace and order all the milks.

    14. Fikly*

      Is any of the milk or “milk” spoiling before it’s used up? If not, I don’t see the problem.

    15. Fikly*

      Also, I couldn’t drink any of the milks you mentioned. I don’t expect an office to provide me with milk I can safely drink, but I would be super pleased if they did, and feel cared for and thought of.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This is why every office I’ve ever worked in has only provided non-dairy creamers. It’s too complicated to figure out who has allergies or are intolerant, who’s vegan, who’s trying to lose weight, etc. and what individual milks they would need to accommodate these restrictions.

        OP, if the milk thing becomes unwieldy in the future, I’d switch to purchasing non-dairy creamers and sending out an email letting people know they could bring in their own milks if they want that instead.

        1. CDM*

          And both the sweetener in liquid non dairy creamer and the hydrogenated oil in powdered non dairy creamer are problematic for health reasons for many people.

  33. Alice*

    I told my manager that to ensure a smooth transition I wanted to take several days and document a system I’ve created from scratch over the past 3 years. Nobody in the company ever learned how too use it and I never documented it before as all my spare time went into maintenance. I repeatedly asked them to hire someone I could train, as it’s bad to have only me in this role, but I was refused and none of my coworkers have the necessary technical skills.

    Anyway. I figured that since I’m leaving they’d want me to leave behind instructions… right?! Wrong. My manager, verbatim, told me I’m “focusing on the wrong priorities” and to work on deliverables for my last month. My coworkers are horrified. I’m working on deliverables and my notice period can’t be over soon enough.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      That sucks, but fortunately in a little bit it won’t be your problem!

      Be sure to have an exorbitant fee in mind for when they contact you for training after you leave ;-)

      1. Alice*

        Yeah, they will call. No amount of money could entice me. I plan to tell them I’m too busy with my new job and block them if they get aggressive.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Smart! I definitely second what everyone else has said about sending the “just to confirm, here’s how I’m spending my remaining time aka not documenting this system” message, I think it couldn’t hurt to add a “fyi I will not be available for calls/training regarding it after my last day” to really drive it home.

          Though that does sound aggressive/antagonistic now that I type it out, maybe it could be softened a bit with something more like “…as a heads up, with my new schedule I don’t anticipate being available for training once I leave”. But you’ll know your audience best!

          Oh and congrats and good luck with the new job!

    2. Kes*

      That’s ridiculous. I would probably send an email documenting the priorities (“As you have requested, I am focusing on deliverables X, Y and Z and as such will not have time to document system S”), even though it probably won’t do anything, just to cover you just in case others find out and panic

      Otherwise, I agree there’s not much you can do but wait out your time and get out of there

      1. Alice*

        Oh, everyone already knows! The bit about me “focusing on the wrong priorities” was said at an office-wide meeting, that’s why the coworkers are freaking out. But you’re right I should shoot an email with a few key people cc’d in, just in case. I will try to document as much as possible in the time I’ve left, but it is what it is.

        1. Dittany*

          They called you out about that in an office-wide meeting? Holy hell, I’m glad you’re getting out.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’d get that in writing if possible, and then forward it to someone else. But I’m kinda petty sometimes.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      My company told me they didn’t need a website manager and a year later they’re contacting me wondering why their websites are down.
      Seriously not your monkeys and not your circus.

    5. Consultant Catie*

      If you’d be willing, I wonder if you could put together an email to send on your last day laying out your consulting fee to document the system. In other posts, Allison has recommended doubling your hourly salary rate to find your hourly consulting price. You may not have the time, but this way you can make a good faith effort, potentially make some extra money, and then leave the ball in their court. Your current manager might not realize how important the system is until you’re gone.

  34. Holy Moley Artichokey*

    How do I tell my colleagues that I’m leaving the field because of sexism and harassment? I’ve been in this field for about ten years, and every year I’ve been harassed, everything from lewd comments to getting cornered by creepers when the building was empty to actual assault. I report the harassment every time it felt safe to do so, but of course my complaints were never acted on. This has happened at multiple institutions. I eventually developed debilitating PTSD. When I requested disability accommodations for the PTSD, I was retaliated against. Reported the retaliation, nothing happened.

    There is nothing else for me to try, so as much as I love this field and as much as my work is valued, it’s time to go.

    What do I tell my work colleagues? Most of them are unaware of how bad everything has been for me, and plus, there’s this attitude that you suffer through the bad working conditions because you’re MAKING A DIFFERENCE and maybe you’ll get to be in a position to change things someday, so I’m going to come across like that kid saying the emperor has no clothes.

    1. finally october*

      If you have good relationships with them, I’d tell them. Not in groups, but just one on one if they ask you. There’s a quote from Douglas Adams, I believe, that it’s possible to sit on something for years without having an opinion on what you’re sitting on, but it’s impossible to be sat on without getting an opinion about the ones doing it. These guys who don’t realize what’s going on or that their lives and careers are built on the absence of women who have been systematically harassed out of their field… they should know what’s going on. But only if you feel it’s safe to tell them.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Exact quote:
        “It is difficult to be sat on all day, every day, by some other creature, without forming an opinion on them.
        On the other hand, it is perfectly possible to sit all day, every day, on top of another creature and not have the slightest thought about them whatsoever.”
        ― Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency

        1. Filosofickle*

          I miss Douglas Adams! His books were such an important part of my growing-up years…funny and true and poignant. *goes off to find copies and re-read*

        2. YetAnotherUsername*

          It was about a horse I think.

          I miss Douglas Adams. I really didn’t like the TV show of dirk gently. I am going to start good omens soon and I really hope it’s good.

          1. Filosofickle*

            I liked Good Omens! It was fun. I gave up on the Dirk Gently adaptation, it was…not fun.

    2. Dove*

      I’d go with some variation of…being utterly blunt about it, honestly. “I love this field and I wish I could stay, but the ongoing sexism and harassment is destroying my health and I need to leave for my own sake.”

      There will be people who try and convince you that it’s not that bad, or that you can change things if you stay just a little longer.

      Ignore them. Tell them, to their faces, if you feel up to it, that it is that bad for you (it’s given you PTSD for cryin’ out loud!) and that you have been retaliated against previously for trying to get things changed or for even requesting accommodations because of the health issues this has caused for you. “Staying isn’t an option. Ten years of hoping that this will be the year it starts getting better is ten too many.”

      That might not be something you want to do, though. But…well. Maybe being slapped with the wet haddock of “DETERMINATION is not enough to endure bad working conditions, and the institution does not care about Artichokey’s valuable work enough to actually do anything to keep them” will change things.
      If it doesn’t, you’re still getting out.

    3. Reba*

      I’d tell them exactly this — once you’re on the exit ramp. Let them know you are saddened that your contributions are not valued, and that tour field as a whole is being held back due to systematically denying itself access to the potential of women workers.

      It sounds like you are already ready for less than great reactions. But I’d hope that it would be satisfying to tell the truth, even so.

      Maybe share with them the reporting on the Salk institute, or if there has been coverage on your own industry– ask them to read it and say, this happened to me, too.

      Consider talking with a journalist on this beat?

      I’m so sorry. Best wishes with your search.

  35. Ventypus*

    Today hasn’t been fun. My boss’s version of telling me to take more ownership of something is basically ignoring my updates/questions and waiting for me to handle it myself. To be clear, I would have no problem handling it myself, but I don’t have full ownership of this project and she knows it. And if she wants me to take more ownership of the project than there should be an actual conversation around how to make that feasible. But, unfortunately, there’s no time to have an acutal conversation about it because she’s always in meetings. And today she’s off-site. Sooooo…. I vent.

    1. Kelly*

      I think we have/had the same boss. I left the job so she’s no longer my problem, but I can empathize. Totally frustrating!!

  36. Operation Glowing Symphony*

    It’s my first day of unemployment.

    I quit last week and yesterday was my last day. During that time my Ex Director and immediate boss, Dev Director, didn’t talk to me except requisite staff meetings. Although the ED did stop by my desk last week (day after my resignation) to say that she’s sorry about how it went down and she wishes me luck on my future ventures. Yesterday, the DD stopped by, on her way out to say, ‘Goodbye. It’s been nice working with you.” Really?

    At the end of day, yesterday, they weren’t even there when I left the office! My coworkers were there and didn’t know what I needed to do (shrugs all around) so I found something that looked like a nominal out-processing sheet, taped my door key to it, left my log-on name, put my name tag on it (magnetic) and put it on her desk. (big shrug).

    This alone is evidence of the risk management issues that have propelled me to leave, not to mention the instability and disorganization that runs rampant through here.

    Good news – my coworker will give her notice next week, only to leave a week later to start her job while our non-profit is hosting a large annual fundraiser at the end of the month (cue their stress factor on high!)

    I have penned a concise and highly referenced Letter of Concern to our Board President outlining all the ways our non-profit is risking its financials and reputation through various oversights and lack of risk management. None of it is unknown to my ED if the letter makes it back to her. I’m not the only staff member who has written to the Board about such things, after their departure. But I’m not sure if I’ll send it – would you?

    Our new Program Director is also on the hunt for a new job. That’s a confirmed (4) employees gone in three months and a possible (5) employees gone by the end of the year….

    1. Dove*

      I’d send it. If nothing else, it provides a paper trail that the Board President *knew* (or should have known) that these issues existed and needed addressing if things eventually implode.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        That makes complete sense. It seems to be perpetuating the problem by withholding. I can only tell them the facts, as I experienced and processed them. It’s up to them to determine the next step. I only ask that the next step be that the board talk with the ED about how we currently manage risk and what we can do to evaluate for future threats.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          You mean what they can do to evaluate future threats – you don’t work there anymore. You need to remember that so you don’t get too attached to the outcome should you choose to send the letter – and I think you should, then mentally move on from this place so you can find something better.

          1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

            Please realize I’m less than 24 hours from departing from the organization. My use of pronouns is may still err on being part of the team. I know I’ll never know their decision.

    2. Bree*

      It sounds like you are unlikely to use these people as references anyway, so I’d send it.

      I did something similar once, and the Board Chair called me to get more detail about my concerns, and then asked me to join the board. I declined, but they did fire the ED a few months later.

    3. Kes*

      Personally I wouldn’t, since it’s a risk, burns a bridge, and there’s not much benefit to you other than making you feel better. If other people have written the board presumably isn’t ignorant, but just hasn’t done anything about it, so whether they’ll actually do anything on receiving your letter is uncertain.
      It’s your call though – my only question would be whether you may at any point want or need a reference from them, in which case I really wouldn’t risk it

      1. WellRed*

        But it’s a nonprofit, isn’t there a benefit (to others) ensuring money/resources are used wisely?

      2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Worthy concerns. I was there a year and I have (2) qualified references that I can use. Reality, I didn’t do that much with the organization due to all the disruptions and changes, I don’t have to put it on my resume and all I have to do is explain the 10 mos gap, as I was finishing up 3-mos of a contract when I was hired on.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      LOL – yes, I sent it, when I was in a similar position 20 years ago. The board’s your only recourse, sometimes, and sometimes even they fail you.

      Net on mine? They kept an eye on the person I documented, fired her for embezzlement about a year after I left. That felt *good*.

  37. Anonymous Educator*

    The culture of my department is to gather everyone to go to lunch and then decide where to go, and we all go as a big group. Nothing really horrible happens in these large groups—I just prefer a more intimate dining dynamic. I have occasionally had the opportunity to have one-on-one lunches with some of these folks when the timing just works out that way, and they’re terrific one on one to dine with. I just don’t dig the large groups. Honestly, sometimes I’ll just eat lunch by myself (which I don’t mind) instead of going with the group. Not trying to be anti-social… just don’t like that particular dynamic.

    Does anybody else not like going to lunch in large groups with co-workers?

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      I’d love to be able to have that choice! Being in the position I am I stagger my lunch break with the other employees so there’s phone coverage. But honestly I like the time alone to just destress/unwind.

      I do understand your dilemma though. I’m sure no one takes offense that you don’t participate all the time. If anything you can make an excuse that you need to run an errand or something. I too prefer smaller groups than a large outing.

    2. Birch*

      I just posted a related situation! I hate these even when I’m on the best of terms with people. Huge groups are loud, you never get a say in the restaurant, they take forever, they’re stressful for a variety of reasons! You are definitely not alone. And you’re totally within reason to want some alone time or a more relaxing atmosphere at lunch!

    3. Jamie*

      I would hate that, and I’m sure the restaurants you guys chose last minute don’t love it either.

      I’ve worked in a huge metro area and now a little more out but none of the restaurants I’ve been to are empty enough at lunch to accommodate a large group on no notice.

      But I’m focusing on the wrong thing…it’s not anti social to prefer to eat alone or in smaller groups so if it won’t hurt you professionally I’d just decline.

    4. Seifer*

      YES. We used to have a guy working here that would start a group chat at like 10AM to see who wanted to go to lunch and there would be like, 8-10 people in there. And a lot of times I would go but other times I would just. Not be into it. Because… that’s too many people. Add in all the different personalities and the “I don’t like this food” and “we always go there, can we please go literally anywhere else” and “I don’t want to drive who can drive” and I’m just like. No. Jeebus no.

      Like you, I had a couple of times where I was able to go out with just one or two coworkers without the huge group, but the guy that usually organized would pout about it if we split the group. By the time he got fired he was getting really aggressive about the fact that he wanted us all to go as a group that we would just… sneak out without him. Ooh, that sounds mean, but like, if he got us all to reluctantly agree to group lunch, he would suggest the one restaurant that he loved and no one else did. He was also successful in pushing literally all of his workload onto the rest of us because he was just “so busy” so we were all salty enough that we really didn’t want to spend anymore time with him than we had to.

      1. OtterB*

        Years ago, I worked on a project that had about 6-8 people from several different organizations at a remote location for months. Lunch was from the plant vending machines or brought in; no cafeteria and not enough time to go out. No pressure to eat dinner together but we usually did. We had to institute a rule that nobody could discuss “where are we going for dinner” before 4 PM because otherwise we spent the whole day hungry.

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      I eat lunch at a middle school every day. Go out to lunch, even in a big group of colleagues, sounds like a vacation!

      1. just a random teacher*

        I used to work at a middle school where the entire teaching staff would sit and each lunch together in one of the classrooms every day, all around the same big table as a group. It was a miserable experience. (One of the older teachers, who’d been there so long that her adult son was also one of the teachers there, would basically hold court the whole time and complain about kids she didn’t like, which did not help matters.)

        I eventually decided to eat on my prep period and open the computer lab up for students during lunch rather than sit with those people any longer. A swarm of middle schoolers playing computer games was definitely preferable to that staff lunch situation.

    6. CheeryO*

      That’s totally fine! I used to do lunch walks with a big group of coworkers, but it got too big and I realized it wasn’t relaxing or fun for me anymore, so now I walk with one close coworker or just do lunch by myself. I try to show my face once in a while with the big group, just because I value the relationships and don’t want to completely isolate myself.

    7. Joielle*

      Yes! My department is 8 people and our grandboss has been scheduling a whole-group lunch every month or so (so with him, 9 people total). It’s not a gigantic group but it’s too many to be seated at a restaurant table together and be able to all hear each other, so people just talk to the 1-2 others near them. Plus one of our coworkers has dietary restrictions and can only really go to one restaurant near our office, which is fine but loud. None of us want to be doing the lunches at all, except our grandboss, who seems to be trying to MAKE FRIENDS with us to make up for some early missteps when he started, and it’s not working. Just kind of annoying all around.

    8. Dasein9*

      Oh, no. No. Lunch breaks are supposed to be breaks, not additional being-professional-time. We have team lunches every few months and I hate them. Every now and again, with a chosen few is fine, but only if you truly get to choose your company.

    9. Asenath*

      Well, I’m not very sociable, and my workplace has a tradition of as many of us who are available – about 10, give or take – go out to lunch. I’ve gotten used to it, once I decided to do it as a kind of contribution to group morale, but the things that make it easier are (1) it’s once a month at most – it sounds like you do it daily! (2) we suggest restaurants and can say we don’t like any one that’s proposed – this means that we tend to fairly standard (and not really expensive) fare rather than anything a little unusual. I don’t think I’d like doing it more often or with a larger group.

    10. LilySparrow*

      I wouldn’t mind it as an occasional thing, but it seems like a lot of work for every day or most days.

      Eating in a big group can be fun sometimes, but deciding where to eat in a big group is exhausting!

  38. Chronic Overthinker*

    No question really, just a humble brag. With a little help from our sister office, I was able to get marketing materials made for GrandBoss for an upcoming event. I am super proud of my work and though I haven’t got any real praise from anyone yet, I’m patting myself on the back for a job well done. It’s my first real “accomplishment” here and a reminder that even as “Director of First Impressions” (eye roll, ha ha) I can go above and beyond to assist the team.

    2. CB*

      Congrats!! Be sure you’re keeping some type of list of “great things I’ve done this year” so you’ll have it handy when performance reviews/conversations come around – especially if your direct boss isn’t one to notice all the things you do. :)

    3. Goose*

      Congratulations you’ve done awesome.

      I also like the new to me oxymoron you you created, humble brag. I guess you could also brag humbly.

  39. Anónima*

    How do I get over a (minor) mistake in work which is causing me headaches? I keep on ruminating about it and it’s making me ill.
    I’ve apologised, given the case to a colleague, and recorded everything.
    But I can’t stop thinking of it.

    1. Sweatpants*

      When I’ve had something like this happen, I feel better if I can figure out a way to make sure I don’t repeat the same mistake. I’m a planner, and I always feel better if I have a plan.

    2. SMH RN*

      I tend to ruminate and stress over mistakes too…I find what helps is asking myself “did I learn something from this? Will I change my practice soot doesn’t happen again?” Then I just remind myself over and over that humans make mistakes. It doesn’t reflect my value as a person.

    3. Bree*

      In my experience, cognitive behavioural therapy was incredibly useful to deal with this exact problem. If you can, see a therapist. If not, there are good workbooks you can buy – my therapist and I actually worked through one together, but you could totally do it on your own. The one we used is “The Generalized Anxiety Disorder Workbook: A Comprehensive CBT Guide for Coping with uncertainty, Worry. and Fear.”

      I’m sorry this is happening to you – I know how awful it is. I went through it for a year, worrying obsessively over inconsequential things and unable to stop, and it was like torture. A few months of CBT made a dramatic difference, and I’m now more professionally confident and comfortable than I’ve ever been. Good luck!

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        CBT is very good for this sort of thing. My therapist taught me a simple trick – when you notice yourself ruminating like this, click your fingers in your ears and think “change the thought!” then intentionally start thinking of something else.

    4. Anónima*

      Thank you everyone – I have made plans for it not to happen again, within reason. A large part of it was unplannable because it depended on the other person’s reaction which was not something I could have reasonably predicted.

      I am not a huge fan of CBT as a talking therapy but I do enjoy completing workbooks at my own pace, so I will check out the recommendation!

      I am feeling a bit better today. Swimming helped – there’s something meditative in the regular breathing, and it helps my headaches too. Plus, I have been doing some mindful thinking and trying to stay in the present moment.

      Have a good weekend :)

  40. Mashed potato*

    Does anyone work with other people at work who have tendency to jump to conclusions and hit panic buttons too often?

    2. Jamie*

      Yes. And also with others who wouldn’t jump if they were stung by a bee. A well regulated sense of urgency is a wonderful (and rare) thing.

    4. Sighhhh*

      Yes, and it’s fairly exhausting. The administrative team that processes our orders will send out “HIGH ALERT NO ORDERS INTEGRATING EMERGENCY” e-mails at least a couple of times a week, when in reality, no orders were placed so there was nothing to send. Our web team has tried to gently and not-so-gently ask what made them think this is an appropriate way to escalate non-emergencies, and they often fight it. The problem is, they do occasionally run into the odd major error here and there, but it’s created a very Boy Who Cried Wolf with our web team and makes them even more likely to drag their feet when investigating.

    5. Calacademic*

      This used (hopefully only past tense) to be me. I knew it was a problem. I’ve been actively working on it and it has gotten better, though I still tend to jump to conclusions too quickly.

    6. NW Mossy*

      Oh, do I ever!

      That said, I get why. It happens most often with our customer service teams, who often have to deal with clients that I would call emotional radiators – if you’re touching them when they’re hot, you’re going to get burned. In an effort to assuage their burns, our service teams sometimes radiate that heat onto others in the organization by doing instant analysis on surface facts and demanding action.

      A big part of what I do as a manager on the back-office side is consciously turning down the temperature of situations like these. I can’t tell you the number of times where I do a little research and uncover that the facts are quite different from what we saw on the surface, which drives a totally different set of actions than what was originally asked.

      Mostly this plays out fine, and people are appreciative of the help. Occasionally, though, I get someone who’s just not convinced that I’m taking their concerns seriously unless I’m as hot about it as they are. Those people are exhausting, because that’s just not going to happen. As a former boss of mine was fond of saying about our business, “this isn’t hearts in coolers.”

    7. FuzzFrogs*

      Yeeeeeeeeees. I wrote a long version where I used Peter Rabbit nicknames to describe petty bullshit, but to sum up: this is an extremely not-life-or-death industry that almost every employee takes deadly seriously and can and will escalate anything that they find hurts their feelings. Including coworkers being out for chemotherapy, being told they were breaking the law, and being asked questions. (Oh, how I love the time my closest work friend mocked me behind my back to our great-great-grandboss. Within my earshot. Because I asked a question and I should’ve known the answer, psychically.)

      I’ve gotten to the point where I can and do refuse to freak out about…anything. It’s just not worth it.

    9. CM*

      Yeah. Multiple places. I think it’s an inability to tollerate distress.

      I sympathize because my first instict when something stressful happens is to be reactive, and I had to teach myself to wait a bit instead of immediately doing something to make the stress stop.

      I used to use “spread information, not alarm” as my motto, but it didn’t catch on.

      1. Mashed potato*

        I don’t feel bad for joking that the people at my work who Jump to conclusion for work would do the same for relationships but I’m being an a hole for this one lol

    10. Fortitude Jones*

      Yup, and I ended up leaving that job partly because of it. I was tired of hearing my boss and my teammate’s constant whining about how hard everything was (it wasn’t) or how overworked they were (if they stopped taking 20 minute smoke brokers every hour and stopped talking all day, they’d get stuff done in a timely fashion). They were always operating in panic mode, and it annoyed me to no end because our job just really wasn’t that difficult.

    11. Cora*

      Yes, and unfortunately my current (interim) boss is like this. The tiniest setback will send her into a panic, even when it is a complete non-issue.
      Her highs are VERY high and her lows are VERY low. She just doesn’t have the calm demeanor that is essential to running a department like ours.

  41. Qistina*

    I need some advice. I’m potentially joining the People Ops team of a software company soon, and at my final interview, the CEO (who I’ll working closely with) talked about wanting to introduce lunchtime yoga classes and crossfit classes (no specific time was mentioned) to the company as part of a “wellness programme”. She mentioned that on the current staff, there is a woman who is a certified yoga teacher and a guy who is a former crossfit instructor. “You could ask them to give classes,” she said.

    Here’s my question: If we do go ahead with the plan, do we let them charge for the class or give classes free of charge? I lean more towards the former (maybe at a low rate of $5-$10 per head) because I don’t believe they should sacrifice their lunch or after work hours for zero fee. But the way the CEO said it, it sounded to me like she wanted them to give free classes.

    I’m right, right? If, say, the CEO insists on them not charging for classes, what other benefits or incentives could we give them? Though I still feel like nothing could beat cold hard cash.

    1. ACDC*

      I don’t think you should be having your employees do these classes. If you’re going to do it, hire someone who comes in specifically to teach them. The instructor should absolutely be paid (by your company, not the employees taking the class in my opinion), but I think it would be a pretty nice perk if the employees were able to attend these classes for free.

      1. Reba*

        Right, employees should not be doing these classes at all, regardless of the pay rates!

        It sounds like the CEO wants to offer benefits that don’t cost the company anything.

      2. Colette*

        Agreed. If you have employees do it, what kind of insurance would the company need in case someone gets hurt? What happens if their full time job needs them to work during class time? What happens if they just aren’t interested in doing it (or if they are now but change their minds)?

    2. Blue Eagle*

      If these employees teach the classes, they should be paid by the company and not by the other employees who will be attending the classes.

    3. Voc Ed Teacher*

      The company should pay for it. I am certified to teach CPR. I teach CPR to my students and only charge for the card. When I’m asked to teach it for the staff, I charge and the athletic department pays me to teach it to the coaches. I’ll do a lot for work but I’m not working for free with a skill that I acquired outside of the work setting.

    4. Kes*

      I think you could maaybe ask them if they were willing to run A free class each as part of a wellness initiative. And they might say yes or no.
      However, for ongoing classes they would definitely need to be paid, preferably by the company. Also, do you have a space they can use for this? And doesn’t crossfit require certain equipment?

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Ask if they’re willing to teach, but give them extra pay for those classes, which are significantly outside of their normal work duties. Best if the company pays, not based on attendance – you don’t want HR employees bugging people to come to their classes.

    6. periwinkle*

      1. If I were one of those certified instructors and the CEO expected me to work for free, my answer would be two words. One of them is unprintable in a family publication.

      2. Don’t hire someone you can’t fire. It could be really awkward if the employee/instructor was a bad fit for the corporate wellness benefit the company had in mind.

      3. And as noted, I’d be concerned about liability issues. If someone is injured during a class, what happens next?

    7. Qistina*

      You guys are right. It’d be a bad idea to ask the employees to give classes, even if they were paid. Just because they’re certified or they used to do it for a living, does not mean they’re obligated to teach it at their current job. There’s also the simple matter of them not wanting to do it, which is a perfectly valid reason. I’m going to push back if the CEO brings it up again. Thanks, all!

      1. Gumby*

        I have seen this work, but only at a large institution that had a well established wellness program. And the people teaching were, in general, not teaching the people that they worked with closely in their other jobs. It was more like: Julie happened to have two jobs at Particular University. She was 75% at Certain Department doing teapot research work and 25% working for the Health Improvement Program teaching yoga classes at different on-campus locations at various times of the week. I never asked, but she may have gotten two separate paychecks even. Though for benefits, etc. she was treated as a full time employee. Her salary for teaching yoga was not tied to what students paid or anything (though we did pay $20 total for 10 classes over a quarter which was a complete steal). Also, not all HIP class instructors had other jobs for the university. In fact, probably very few did.

      2. Consultant Catie*

        One other thought – Crossfit is pretty high-impact and usually requires a certain number of “on-ramp” classes to teach people the proper powerlifting techniques so they dno’t hurt themselves. Yoga can be adapted to those of all ability levels but I’d hesitate to encourage people to start Crossfit training without the proper information and precautions in place.

  42. WFH policy*

    I need help figuring out how to word something without getting myself in hot water. Here’s the situation: over the summer, I let one of my employees (A) work from home one day a week due to public transit issues. That has ended and A is back to a regular, 5 days in the office schedule, but another one of my employees (B) (whose work logistically does not permit him to work from home) has insisted that I provide, in writing, “the policy” that allowed A to work from home. Well, it turned out that the CEO–a few levels above me, not in the same building–“doesn’t like” people to work from home. She had expressed that before I came on board, and I wasn’t aware of it. This came up in an all-team meeting after B asked for the policy and after A had stopped WFH. Now that I know the CEO’s preference, I won’t make the same arrangements with any of my employees again.
    So how do I respond to B’s insistence that I provide him this non-existent policy?

    1. Natalie*

      I think you just have to tell him there isn’t one except for your discretion as a manager. And maybe ask him why he keeps pushing on this complete non-issue.

      Unless your CEO is a mercurial lunatic who regularly interferes with middle management, her opinion sounds like a red herring. If your manager will back you up, you’re fine. If for some reason you do have to explain this to your CEO, you really don’t have anything to hide here – someone had a temporary situation, you made allowances, you didn’t know there was an unofficial rule against it, and now you do. Just because B is acting like you’ve done something wrong doesn’t make it so, and don’t let their behavior push you into acting like you have to cover something up.

      1. WFH policy*

        So, I never really discussed it with my manager either. (She’s also in a different building. My small team is the only part of the organization in our location.) So I don’t actually know if she would back me up.

        1. Natalie*

          Ah well, it might be good to talk to her about it – just to give her a head’s up that B is complaining about this a lot and she may hear from him about it.

          For whatever reason, I get the sense that you are starting to feel like you did something wrong, and I guess unless there’s a lot of context about your company you haven’t shared, I really don’t think that’s the case. So overall I would just try to approach this with that mindset – you made a perfectly reasonable management decision with the information you had at the time. (If relevant) Now you have different information so you will make different decisions going forward. Regardless, what’s done is done and B needs to drop it.

    2. coloring outside the lines*

      I’d shut it down by saying I don’t talk about reports to each other, including decisions I’ve made. Does B want to discuss WFH? (I’m guessing B would say no because B’s work isn’t WFH friendly, and if B did want to WFH, again, pivot to the work is not WFH friendly.) But what A does is not B’s business, and that’s something you as manager can make clear.

      I’d also ask my boss if there’s a policy re WFH for future conversations; that would give you future coverage. And if “A” asks why she can’t WFH again, I’d say I had provided it in the summer but since then, the org has communicated WFH is not to be done.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I’d tell B that it was my discretion as a manager, and if he wants to work from home one day a week for six weeks, he’d better get busy organizing another transit strike. Extraordinary circumstances and all that.

    3. Kes*

      B is being ridiculous, not all policies are specified in writing. I would just tell B that you made the call at the time as A’s manager, and that not every decision needs to be codified as an official policy.

    4. WellRed*

      I’d shut it down hard. Why does employee B care so much? I forsee Employee B being a pain about other stuff down the line.

      1. WFH policy*

        Oh, B is being a pain about other stuff right now. In fact, he just came into my office and forcefully stated that he “needs my response by the end of the day.” Or else…what?

        1. Marketing Manager*

          How did you respond to him?

          Honestly, I’d start managing B out of the organization at this point.

        2. NotAPirate*

          What a Jerk. Definitely bring it up next time you talk to your manager. Sounds like he’s trying to create a case for himself working from home.

        3. Fortitude Jones*

          WTH?! He’s not your boss – you don’t owe him an explanation. Tell him that he will not be working from home since his role in the company doesn’t allow for it, and he needs to stop bringing this up, or the two of you will need to have another conversation about his disruptive and disrespectful conduct.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Tell B that in absence of a written company policy forbidding WFH, it’s going to be at manager’s discretion. You made the call based on the needs of A’s job.

      Maybe try, ‘We don’t write everything down, B, because tools like flexibility are important for managers to be able to do their jobs.’

      But yeah, maybe head to your manager and ask for advice on handling future WFH requests, like, ‘Hi mgr, I had a wfh request but have gotten feedback that our company discourages wfh. How would you recommend I deal with this if it comes up again?’

    6. BRR*

      You tell B to stop asking. B has a lot of nerve. If you really wanted to you could ask why B is asking. But as a manager you can tell B to cut it out.

    7. noahwynn*

      Don’t feel held hostage by B. Like others have pointed out, tell them to mind their own business and that as a manager you have discretion. What A did or does is between you and A unless it directly affects B, which it doesn’t sound like this does.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      I think you can shut this down easily because there were transit issues in the city AND this was for a limited time until said transit issues were resolved.

      But that being said, your company needs to define the company WFH policy, even if that means it is everyone is expected to come into the office all the time UNLESS you are granted a limited-time exception (and give some examples of what that might be).

      Because it’s worse for people to think it’s applied on whims or favoritism.

    9. OhBehave*

      Definitely speak with your manager about this just to give a heads up. Something tells me B is trying to set you up somehow. Perhaps B wanted to WFH at some point and was denied.
      So many C suites don’t trust employees to actually work at home. The proof would be output! But I digress.
      B is being an ass here. Almost like a brother demanding to know WHY sis got to do xyz.
      Give him the policy in the handbook. Explain that you made an exception using managerial discretion.
      I would, however, reserve the right to grant WFH in extreme circumstances on a temporary basis. What was this employee to do? Walk to work? Uber?

    10. Sam Foster*

      Manager’s discretion for a temporary situation followed up with an empathetic question as to what the asker’s real concern was so you can work together to address it.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agreed. It doesn’t sound like there even is a written policy, just that the CEO doesn’t like people to work from home. Doesn’t like =/= can’t do it ever, and management discretion exists for a reason (e.g. helping someone out short-term).

        Hopefully you can mask your irritation at B’s insistence on showing a policy that doesn’t exist that wouldn’t apply to B anyway. I’m not sure I could, but I’m not good-manager material. :-)

  43. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Other than changing my hours day of, how might I keep myself from harassment and traffic since I work blocks from a political rally next week? There is a history of violence around such, people are lining up and staying in town days ahead of time, and I am visibly non-binary and gay. Should I stop going out for walks and/or work lunches in the skyway that week, or change how I dress and what I do day of? Also, should I explain why I need to flex my hours? Public transit or Uber home on rally day?

    1. finally october*

      Ask if you can flex for “traffic issues”. In past jobs, I was able to WFH when there were marathons, marches, or parades that would cut across my commute and mean actual hours added to my commute if I could even get in at all.

      If you can’t get flex, I would go with uber if you can afford it, because public transit will also be full of the protesters.

      If you can’t afford uber and can’t get flex time, yeah, that’s when I would stealth. And get a buddy to walk with you if you have someone who can be with you.

      Best of luck.

    2. BRR*

      Would it be enough to say “due to how these rallies have frequently turned violent, would I be able to Flex, WFH, etc?” I hate to suggest it but I would due what I need to for safety including changing how I dress, not going outside, etc.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Uuuughhhh – I hope you get through this ok. I’m from the US south, they were here last month *and* the month before, though fortunately not in my actual town either time. I am grateful that the liberal bubble held them off.

      – Bring lunch in an insulated bag for a few days as they will be at local eateries.
      – Walking would probably be ok if you go in the opposite direction, but walking inside your office building is also often ok, esp if the weather starts to get bad.
      – The main traffic / transit problems will be the day of. Going in should be ok, coming home is what’s going to suck. Ask to flex work ‘to avoid traffic’, leave by 3pm, and Uber. While you’ll be going the other way, there is likely to be overlap at stops. If you can’t Uber, aim for minimal time at the stops.
      – You also might not need to Uber all the way home, maybe just catch a ride to a stop closer to home. Out of towners will tend to find hotels near the rally, or drive in / park close.
      – There is some safety in numbers. If there’s anyone going your general direction, maybe you can Uber together? Or meet up with a friend to transit home?
      – You don’t have to completely stealth, just overdress for the weather a little – long coat, hat, umbrella – people in passing look a lot more at big accessories than at the people behind them. Not like a costume, though, just your normal winter wear a little early in the year.

      Good luck, and here’s hoping we all get through this soon.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        If it helps any: if this is an official Drumpf rally: those tend not to get violent. It’s the explicit white supremacist rallies (eg Charlottesville) or the ‘random attendees roaming around getting drunk’ that are a problem. I would absolutely NOT go downtown in the evenings / night on the weekend nearest the rally, in case some attendees stayed, unless you can go / be / come home in a large group (6 or more).

        I managed to get thrown out of one of Drumpf’s in 2016 for protesting (unpaid! local! I swear!) without anyone laying a hand on me. I did bring my white cis privilege and Mr. Jules (6’4″) just in case, but the rally goers were (mostly) polite and were not (mostly) visibly nazis.

        Which was totally the saddest part.

    4. Defective Jedi*

      As someone who similarly works blocks away from the rally and enjoys skyway walks and public transit, I would be delighted to be your buddy, if (sensible) site rules didn’t prohibit that offer.

      The other commenters have excellent suggestions, and I hope you are able to use them to both *be and feel* safe over the next week.

    5. Mop Head*

      If you are visibly non-binary and gay, your manager knows and should understand if you simply ask to flex your hours the day of the rally. I love the advice to wear a big coat. If you are afraid, you should alter how you dress, which really sucks. Those people are crazy and it makes me sick that a human being needs to be afraid of violence because of who they are. Please be safe and update next week.

  44. Sweet Dee*

    I was contacted this week by a recruiter for a local position. We chatted via email, and I sent her my resume. She replied back immediately wanting to schedule a call for the next day. I told her the times I was available and then…crickets. I followed up the next day, asking is she still wanted to schedule a call for that day, as my schedule had changed slightly and I had a wider window of time avaialable. I never heard back. I’m assuming at this point that the ship has sailed and I don’t plan on contacting her again, but I’m wondering what others think. I don’t have a lot of experience with recruiters.

    1. ElizabethJane*

      Was it LinkedIn? If you’re not already a part of a recruiter’s network and they found you randomly there’s a very good chance they are just sending out feelers, especially if it’s not for an executive level role. That’s not to say good things can’t come from this type of contact, but also it’s pretty common for it to lead nowhere.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I was going to ask this. Every time this happens to me, it’s come off LinkedIn. I’m tempted to put “Serious Inquiries Only” on my profile. :P

  45. Human Sloth*

    TLDR – I got verbal notice I should be receiving an offer, but HR hasn’t contacted me.

    I am employed at a company that was acquired over a year ago. Things were looking pretty bleak for awhile. I have been interviewing through the transition period. In the last three weeks I have found out that my current job is “safe” and that my job searching has produced a lead to an offer. My interviewer called me two days after my third interview and told me to expect a call from HR within a week. She also told me, if I don’t like the numbers, I should negotiate. At a week, I followed up with the interviewer because HR hadn’t called. She called be back to fill me in that one of the C suite(director of the department I would be working) was let go, so changes were happening, but not to worry, I would be getting a call. I has now been two weeks since the interviewer called with the pre-offer.

    So, my question is how often I should follow-up? Or should I follow-up?

    1. Wonderer*

      Your first follow up was one week after being told to expect it and now it’s been another week?
      I would call next week to follow up (or email?). After that, either let it go or make one last attempt after it’s been a month total.

  46. Birch*

    Need opinions: how do people feel about participating in non-mandatory but highly encouraged “morale boosting” team social events? Does the atmosphere of the team make a difference? When does professionalism mean you need to go and when is it okay to decide not to participate?

    For context, my supervisor has major management issues (the higher-ups have known for a long time) and has been targeting me. With the help of higher-ups and HR, we’re in mediation. I’m not the only one with a history of serious problems with her, and not the worst by far, just the latest. Supervisor has decided that I create a negative atmosphere for the team and that we should do more social things all together to boost morale, including birthday lunches, regular team lunches, and possibly an escape room. It appears that the rest of the team have decided to go along with this new positive outlook, but they all complain about her behind her back and have no faith in the projects. The team also does fairly regularly hang out together outside of work, we just never invite our supervisor because…. well that would be weird. I have a hard time faking happiness, so I really do not want my colleagues to ask me how I feel because they tend to pry and they know enough to know I’m not doing well at all. I don’t want to be a downer at someone’s birthday lunch, but I also understand the need to sometimes suck it up and fake it for the sake of professionalism. My current plan is to make realistic excuses for some of these events and go to others, to appear busy but also trying to be part of the team. Any thoughts about this balancing act?

    1. WellRed*

      I think your plan sounds fine. I am concerned about your relationship with your manager, though. First the mediation (sounds like the company is falling down on the job), but also her blaming you for team morale issues.
      However, you also talk about faking happiness and being a downer and your coworkers knowing you aren’t doing well at all. Please make sure there is no truth in what she said.

    2. Wonderer*

      I was in a similar situation once, and I basically tried to go to everything but would often leave a bit early.

      One other thing to watch out for:
      When I was getting screwed over by my boss and everyone knew it, then they all came to me with their own complaints and moaning about how terribly they were being treated. At first, it was good for me because I realized I wasn’t alone and it gave me a chance to vent also. After a while though, I realized I was surrounded all the time by people who were miserable and I was constantly hearing complaints. It made it really depressing for me and hard to move on. Even after the problems were fixed (manager moved on), I was still seen as someone at the core of all the team’s negativity and it was hard to escape the behavior of everyone that still wanted to whine (and the reputation I had now).
      Don’t forget to also associate with positive people and have conversations that aren’t just mutual complaining!

    3. Federal Middle Manager*

      Personally, I’d try to go to at least 50% of the activities or max 2 per month if they are starting to be scheduled all the time. It’s not fair or right, but your absence will be noted if you skip too often. I do find it a bit concerning that you think you’d be a downer at someone’s birthday lunch…are you so miserable at your job that just going out to lunch would make you noticeably upset? Yes, sometimes we have to fake things for professionalism but an occasional lunch shouldn’t be an insurmountable emotional hurdle.

    4. JustaTech*

      That sounds really hard. I think your plan sounds like the only way forward (maybe plan a reward for yourself after these events so you can have the positive facial expression even if it’s for your favorite ice cream tonight and not Arya’s birthday?).

      What I want to know is who decided that it was a good idea for coworkers, especially ones who aren’t getting along, to be locked in a room together?
      I had a coworker suggest an escape room for our group holiday activity until I asked her “do you really want to be locked in a room with Fergus?”. She was really, really not getting along with Fergus then, so I was surprised she’d suggested an escape room.
      We went to play pool instead.

  47. Not comfortably numb*

    I was blindsided by the news this week that my position is being eliminated (budget cuts). I have until the end of the year. 13 years with a company with consistently good reviews, great work ethic, company wide award, and boom, done. Needless to say I’m going through various waves of emotions. There is a position within my company that two executives have already recommended me for to the head of that department. Of course I’m not banking on that, I’ll also look elsewhere. My nature us to plow forth at full steam ahead. However, my husband feels I should take a few days or a week to regroup, refresh and settle my mind a bit. I’m sure he’s right. I’ve never been in this position before. If you have gone through this, how long did you take to regroup?

    1. ElizabethJane*

      I was laid off when my position was eliminated. I found out mid-November that my last day would be the Monday after Thanksgiving (this was a few years ago). I was also 11 weeks pregnant.

      I was able to negotiate a reasonable severance package given my tenure with the company. I took the month of December off from doing anything because I could afford it and I’m also in a relatively common field so I figured finding employment would be fine with the remaining severance I had.

      My advice would be figure out what you can do financially and how long you think it would take you to find something (I’m a sales analyst with a non-industry-specific background, I can always find mid level analyst roles) and take a little bit of time off if you can afford it. It’s remarkably refreshing.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I was laid off about 8 years ago. I had 1 month from the time I was notified until my last day at work. I had a decent severance package, so I was able to take a little while to regroup. Honestly, I just took about a month to take a deep breath and, for lack of a better word, “enjoy” being home. I also took a trip (the trip was booked before I got news of my layoff). So if you are able to, just take a breather. Since you have three months before your last day at the job, take this time to get your resume together, see about unemployment (find out what you need to do for the application process) and COBRA (for your medical ) and you can start to send out your resume. Just a heads up–it took me TWO YEARS to find another job.

    3. Wonderer*

      I think it’s a good idea to pull yourself together for a couple of weeks before external job searching, but I would not wait on pursuing internal positions. If you’re not the only one in this situation, then others will be trying to snatch up whatever few internal positions are open. Make sure immediately that you are being considered for anything you could possibly move into; and then check in very frequently to make sure nobody ‘forgets’ about you.

    4. CM*

      How long it takes to process everything depends a lot but I think it’s smart to give yourself two or three days to let your emotions settle and get past the initial shock right now.

    5. Goose*

      I was laid off without notice, along with about 40% of the company, from a job I held for 9 years. This was prior to current required layoff notifications dependent upon company size.

      The company also changed the severance package in anticipation of the layoff. I received three weeks, as opposed to the 27 I was expecting.

      It took me about a week to get settled and start grinding into the job search. I just purchased and moved into my first home and had a mortgage that was 3x times the rent I was previously paying, so I had no time to waste.

  48. Washi*

    What is up with all these group projects in grad school? My professors all say that they teach you how to work on teams in the workplace, but I’ve worked collaboratively with coworkers in previous jobs before I went back to school, and it is nothing like an academic group project. For one thing, work teams are almost always made up of people who are on the team because they have a specific area of expertise, whereas that can be true of group projects, but it’s not as explicit, and it makes it awkward when one of your group members is a terrible writer but you can’t necessarily just kick them off the writing components. Also, there are usually external people invested in what you produce, so there’s a lot of accountability, and if someone is slacking in their area of expertise, you don’t necessarily have to just cover for them and fudge their piece, you can go to your boss, their boss, etc.

    Right now I’m dealing with a group project where we’re supposed to host an online discussion, and my group members have completely ignored all my attempts to coordinate our efforts and are just randomly posting poorly written prompts online and confusing all our classmates. At work, I could pull in my manager, but I’m not going to forward my teacher all the emails I’ve sent to the group trying to reign the rogue members in. /rant

    If anyone has any grad-school specific advice for group projects, let me know! It’s been way more of a struggle than I remember it being in undergrad.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Oh, I HATED group projects in grad school for exactly the reasons you mention. Yes, in the professional world we need to work with other people. But in the professional world, group meetings are DURING THE WORK DAY. In grad school–especially programs where most people are doing school part time in the evenings and working during the day–everyone has different schedules. Thank goodness that part of my life is over (until I get restless?)

    2. Lyudie*

      I feel your pain…I’m also in a grad program (online only). I actually do think you can pull the professor in. At least my previous professors have said they want to know if someone isn’t pulling their weight and grading might/would be adjusted based on that. Though if your people are being disorganized in public, the professor might already have an idea things aren’t going well. I wouldn’t forward all the emails, but mention that you have repeatedly tried to keep the team on track without results and you want him/her to be aware of what’s happening.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Yeah, contact the professor! Even if the professor doesn’t care, documenting that someone hasn’t been doing their part (or documenting that your group has literally been unable to get together in-person at all due to schedule) might allow you to protest the grade later.

    3. Professor Bun Bun*

      I hear you on this. When I was in grad school, almost everything was group based. I feel like it’s a way for the professors to grade less work than to actually impart any life skills. My best advice is to figure out who you like to work with and try to do as many projects with them as possible (as long as you have a choice). For the times where you have to work with those who don’t pull their own weight, you have to know how best to manage them and potentially resign yourself to the fact that they will do nothing.

      There was one person in my cohort who no one wanted to work with. They were lazy, would always show up halfway through class if an assignment was due, one time took a phone call in the middle of class (!!!), and that’s not even the half of it. If we had to be in a group with them, we would give them the simplest task possible, so that it wouldn’t completely derail the project. This didn’t always work. Once I was in a group with them and we were doing a presentation about Nike. We asked them to do the intro. They showed up to class 2 minutes before class started and didn’t let us look at their slides. They proceeded to give a rambling intro. My friend who was sitting at the front of the class, cleared his throat to get my attention. I walked over and he turned his laptop toward me, showing me that the person was reading the Wikipedia entry for Nike word-for-word. It was so embarrassing!

      Anyway, I feel your pain! Good luck with grad school!

      1. Natalie*

        Yeah, I never bought the “good practice for the workplace” excuse. And I’ve had a couple of professors who were upfront about it being a way to manage their workload, and I don’t begrudge them for it.

        That said, I did find it helped me practice being clear about what I could do and setting firm boundaries, which is helpful in the workplace. I was the only working adult in most of my classes so I was constantly declining to meet during the day or do extra, unnecessary work, or turn things in early for no reason. So maybe they aren’t totally wrong about it helping with future jobs, just not in the way you’d first think.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Yeah, the contexts are too different for it to be a good reason to make students do group projects. The thing is, in a workplace context, the group doesn’t have to self-police if an individual isn’t pulling their weight. The group can take the issue to a supervisor or team leader or project manager to take action (whip Slacker into shape, remove them from the project, bring on another participant, etc.). But in the school context, Slacker becomes your lowest common denominator, and lord help you if Slacker doesn’t care about their grade.

    5. Oldster*

      This is the one complaint that my daughter has had every semester. Last year she had one person who didn’t do work, did it wrong, and or incomplete. Everyone in her year said they would make sure she didn’t have to work with him again (that’s how bad it was). So this semester she has a new one who does things in a way to make things difficult on the others in the group. Work is poorly done, it’s late, and he lies about doing it.
      And I’m sure that every student already has experience in group projects in both high school and undergraduate. I had group projects in undergraduate school over 40 years ago. One included a guy who didn’t come back on time after Thanksgiving break so we had to make the presentation without him. After the presentation the professor wanted to know what the missing student was supposed to contribute as there was no obvious gap. Yeah, turns out he made no contribution.

    6. CB*

      My only advice would be to push back on the professor. I had an issue with a professor (the director of my grad program) who gave us a group project and stipulated that we needed to do all communications through a message thread in Blackboard. This obviously proved to be terrible – how can six working professionals be expected to work on a project in a system that doesn’t send notifications? So, we ended up convening twice for short meetings on campus to divide out roles and regroup before the presentation.

      Our professor attempted to dock us points for “meeting in person”, and only gave them back after I had a rather persistent conversation with him that his weird restriction was both impractical and completely unrealistic in the workplace. Imagine if you could only communicate with your coworkers through a discussion thread like AAM – no phone calls, IMs, emails, or in-person conversations…

    7. Filosofickle*

      My graduate program was extraordinarily collaborative / group project based, which is logical since my field is, too. What struck me as the biggest difference was that no one has any authority in a school project! There’s no one who can, effectively, set expectations or address performance issues. (We did have one class that required groups to rotate leadership. That helped.)

      I understand why group projects are a good idea. For us, it was a way to do much larger-scale and more ambitious innovation / business projects that we couldn’t do alone. But I wouldn’t say it taught me a ton about how to work with other people. It did teach me some important lessons, like: 1) Some people DGAF and can’t be shamed into doing their part. Learn to work around them. 2) Responsibility without authority is the pits. 3) There is no way to engineer the perfect team. Whether we were self-chosen / arranged by capability / drawn out of a hat, some teams flew and some tanked. There was huge frustration in that but it was also freeing.

      FWIW, on the “terrible writer” example. Have you asked them if they want to do the writing? If they want to contribute and aren’t good, there might not be much you can do. But they may prefer to be off the hook. Having direct conversations about what everyone wants to do and can do well helped us divide work better. (Perhaps not always fairly, but better for output and time.) I often found in my desire to be fair and non-critical I wasn’t having direct conversations needed to be more productive.

      I also think you could bring in your professor. Not in a tattling way, but the “can you help me with a situation” framing Alison often recommends. Surely they’ve seen this before.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      I loved group projects in grad school because I project managed all the big ones, and the ‘authority of expertise’ meant I could get away with it. What I did:
      1) When the project / group was announced, I started writing tasks and timelines
      2) When we held the team meeting, I pulled out the draft and said:
      – Here’s the task list I see, what am I missing or would you like to change?
      – Who wants which task?
      3) I’d publish tasks, assignments, due dates – email, forum, someplace – and check in before due dates.
      4) One task was *always* ‘final edit’, and that always went to someone reliable who was good with English. I sometimes did a check after to be totally sure, but it never took more than 30 minutes. Most assignments with significant writing practically give you the outline, you just have to follow it.

      Project management was the single most useful class I took in grad school. By a lot.

    9. Okumura Haru*

      I feel like such an outlier here.

      I did an online grad program for library science, and we had 1 group project in my entire time there, IIRC. It wasn’t that bad – the group was good, and the assignment went well.

      I hated group work during undergrad and K-12, so I totally get where you’re coming from.

    10. JustaTech*

      My grad program (for working professionals!) had a ton of group work (to the point that on the occasion that we were all in the same physical space and they said our next class would be a group project people groaned audibly.

      It was a huge PITA to find a time for everyone (all over the country/world) to get together.

      What was weird was when one of my group-mates got very, very sick (bedrest sick) and couldn’t work on our project anymore. She’d already finished her part, but the professors asked the rest of us if we were OK with her still getting the same grade. We were all super confused by that, because at work if someone get so sick they’re on bedrest and short term disability, you don’t count that against them in their performance review (or you shouldn’t).
      I mean, maybe it was an opportunity for us to say “JellyBean hasn’t done any work on this project!”.

      The funny thing is that the class with the most genuine collaboration didn’t have any group work at all; it was our stats class and we all lived in the forums trying to figure it out.

    11. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Urgh. The only time I ever enjoyed any kind of group project in school was when two of my friends and I did the Mathematical Modeling competition as a team. That worked because we already got along, we would have spent the whole weekend together whether or not we were in the modeling competition, and we each grabbed a specific task to be primary on (I did coding, another person did documentation, and the third person did research) while we all collaborated on trying to build our model and worked together as needed. We didn’t do particularly well (but did do better than our school’s other team), but it was the most constructive and least obnoxious group work experience I had in all of undergrad. (The worst was when I was trying to do survey-based research as part of a team of three: me, other person who also actually cared about our research topic, and Senior Who Needs A C In This Class To Graduate. She would not follow our sampling methodology because it was “too much work” and basically ruined any chance of us getting meaningful results out of the thing.)

    12. tamarack and fireweed*

      I’m sometime seeing this from the other side: the instructor’s.

      Pedagogically, I know the high value of group or project-based course design. Some fields are just intensely collaborative, or interdisciplinary, and so are modern workplaces.

      But these projects can be damn hard to manage, because of all the reason mentioned here. Getting buy-in from the students is a must… and each group has a different dynamic. Also, an individual can destroy consensus, and as others have noted, the incentives for getting someone in line just look different in a classroom than in a professional setting.

    13. Reliquary*

      I’m now really curious to know what sorts of grad programs include group work! Are these business degrees of some kind, like MBA? And are they mostly online?

      I ask because the majority of folks of my acquaintance have PhDs, but have never engaged in any group work at the grad level. For reference, I’m an academic in the humanities, and for full disclosure, I don’t assign any group work in the undergraduate level classes I teach – hence my curiosity.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Environmental science, climate change adaptation, anything with stakeholder engagement or intensely interdisciplinary might. And should.

    14. Once and future librarian*

      Eh… I depends on what industry you’re planning on going into. for me, I work with a lot of startups and tech, so that requires different working styles and time zones. It’s actually a good reflection of different people schedules in grad school but mine is a very specific case.

    15. Lifelong student*

      I hated group work- as as undergrad a prof assigned the groups to be “balanced” by taking the best student, the worst student, and a low- middle student to work together. That was a disaster- we ended up “firing” the worst student with the prof’s agreement. In my master’s program- where I did not know any of the other students and was old enough to be their parent- I complained to the group when no one was doing any of the work they had promised and they fired me! I was allowed to do the project on my own. In another group- two of us- who had only met in class- did the majority of the work and are still friends 15 years later. The group was required to give grades to each other- several of us communicated that one deserved no more than a D- but later found that the student was given an A!- for a project she did nothing on. I always felt that working on a group project maximized my stress- not my learning experience.

    1. 1234*

      Not sure what industry you are in but in mine, it is normal to see Assistant Llama Groomer or Senior Llama Groomer apply for jobs that say Llama Grooming Manager after they have been at the junior roles for quite some time. Most employers understand that people want to move up!

      Do you have any experience (even indirectly) managing interns? Been a lead on a project, even if you were not officially “manager”?

    2. Shiny Onix*

      I had an interview for a team lead role a couple of weeks ago and wasn’t successful partly because of this. I just got my feedback this week and my line manager said that they are going to ensure I get some experience of managing projects and their delivery to give me concrete examples to use next time. Have you got this or is this an option? Because otherwise you’re going to struggle to succeed in competency based interviews.

      The other option is to take on roles outside your day job. I’m looking to apply for a community leader type role which will also help me develop this.

    3. zora*

      In your current position, can you ask for some experience? I’d go to my manager and say, I’m interested in management jobs in the future, is there some way I could manage some interns, or manage a specific project, to get some experience supervising others?

      Also, some companies have very specific promotion tracks, I’d look to see if there are any in your industry.

  50. Wing Leader*

    Just jumping on to do a mini rant today. Yesterday, my receptionist sent an email to remind all of us admin to turn in our $15 a piece so we can get our boss a gift for boss’s day, like we do every year.

    Can I just say how much I hate doing this? I know 15 bucks isn’t that much, but my boss makes about 3 times my salary. I also know Alison has said a lot about gifts flowing upwards. What makes it even worse is my boss is a terrible boss. If you’re her “friend” then you get special treatment. Otherwise, you get treated like crap. My boss has also bragged to me how much money she makes (yes, really).

    I guess I’ll just grit my teeth through it for another year.

    1. Reba*

      Ugh.

      What would happen if you didn’t do it? It sounds like there would be blowback, but saying No is an option.

      1. Wing Leader*

        It’s just such a normal thing at this point though I don’t think it would make sense. I just hate doing it. I’m someone who makes just barely enough to pay my bills, and my boss regularly takes long vacations and eat at expensive restaurants with her friends. Yet I have to shell out money to get her a gift. Ugh is right.

          1. valentine*

            It’s just such a normal thing at this point though I don’t think it would make sense.
            You’re in a loop. Lead by example. There must be at least one other person who sees no escape and you saying no (or nothing, and, either way, filtering those emails to delete) will open a window for them.

            Why not job search? Your manager’s despicable.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          “I’m sorry; I’m unable to contribute this time.” Repeat as necessary, no explanation needed.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            Exactly this. You don’t have to do anything. Tell them it’s not in your budget and then ignore any follow-ups.

    2. Kes*

      Yeah that’s ridiculous. I would tell them I don’t think it’s appropriate for gifts to flow upwards and not contribute if possible.

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Just say that you aren’t able to contribute this year. And then have a talk with the receptionist about gift giving etiquette in the office (gift down and maybe sideways but not up)

    4. TimeTravelR*

      I think $15 is a lot, especially for a boss, and one you don’t even like all that much. I’d just not respond, or say no thank you. Maybe remind them that it’s not appropriate to give your boss a gift. Some people find it unethical for boss’s to accept gifts. I am one.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Agree with the others – just say “I’m not able to contribute this year.” I think you’ll feel worse contributing than dealing with any pushback, and boss gifts/boss day are ridiculous things that should end anyway.

  51. Watermelon M*

    How do you quit a job with a volatile boss? As some know, I’m trying to leave my toxic job. Today I saw a side of my boss I didn’t expect! A person we work with (not directly on our team. Literally is employed elsewhere. But they partner with us.) announced they are moving on to another position. They’ve been working there for 6 years. My boss had a whole conniption. She threw a stapler!!! Then went on about how this generation doesn’t have any loyalty.

    Cue me, who is searching for a job, and have been here for 11 months. What if she throws a stapler again, but this time at me? Is this one of those situations where I should just quit via email and then not show up to work anymore? I would like to give 2 weeks notice (when that blessed time comes) but if my boss acts like this for someone who quit and is not employed by her?? Phew.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Yes, we have one guy who is our HR department. And he did come by after it happened! He poked his head out his office, along with everyone else, when they heard the clatter, and came to my boss’s office (where our direct team was gathered because she wanted to announce it.) He just said “Oh, that is so frustrating. I understand (I guess because we have high turnover).” And then he asked if “we” could keep it down and try not to be so rowdy on a Friday. Then they all chuckled and he went his merry way. My office is in a bizzaro world. I will say that it was not a hard throw, so at least that’s good, and it landed on the carpet, and it missed all of us on the team. But. Still. A stapler.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      Do you have an HR department? I would create a meeting with her and HR to give your notice – you’ll still be giving it in person, with a resignation letter and everything, and you’ll have a witness/someone to make sure your boss behaves. If she starts to raise her voice, call her on it, and don’t be shy about asking HR to intervene.

      I wouldn’t usually give this advice, but I think when there’s a question of safety, it’s ok to do things a little less by-the-book.

      1. Watermelon M*

        That’s a good idea. Though based off of our one HR dude, I’ll call him Bob, he would be zero help. But! Having him there might lessen the chance my boss will throw something. And I’ll have a witness. I think if he actually witnessed what happened (rather than walk in after like today and just saw a stapler on the floor after he heard the noise and the loud talking) he would hopefully have a different reaction.

    3. Watermelon M*

      A positive update (I think) just now, she sent the person who announced they’re leaving from their position a sweet email (they will never know her initial reaction thank goodness) and thanked them for all their hard work the past 6 years and that they’ll be dearly missed. It’s like night and day. But it was a very nice email and at least the resigning person wasn’t here to see the previous hour. I’ll really miss this person. We didn’t work in the same office, but she was the only person I felt like I could be comfortable with and would mention that she knew my office could be…ridiculous. It’s a sad Friday for me.

    4. Anono-me*

      I think Exceljedi’s advice to resign in a meeting with both HR and your manager is good.

      You probably also want to be prepared for your manager to have you walked out the moment you resign. Some places do it for ‘security’ reasons and some people do it for punitive reasons. So have all of your important things out of the office and make sure you can survive financially with two weeks no pay. (You may be eligible for unemployment for those two weeks , because you were let go before your effective resignation date. But I wouldn’t rely on it .)

      1. Anon Quitter*

        This is good advice. When I left a job with a very volatile manager, I planned way ahead in terms of removing personal stuff from my computer, closing the loop on projects without raising flags, and copying files that were my work product (common practice in my industry).

        Then I made a plan to hand in my keys, etc. to the building manager, not my direct manager, so I’d have proof that it was done properly. And, then miraculously, I was able to quit while my volatile manager was overseas. It was sweet, sweet relief.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      How? YOU decide what your last day is, you go in, and you say “I quit.”

      I do not give people like that notice.
      Just make sure you have someone else from here as a reference.

  52. K.H. Wolf*

    I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to market an unusual skill combination in your career long-term, when it’s not a combination that’s typically sought after in job ads.

    Background: I’m an entry-level accountant in a small educational non-profit. I enjoy accounting very much, but I do not enjoy auditing and will likely never get a CPA certification due to crappy gatekeeping requirements in my state (CO). I also enjoy coding, which I had been pursuing recreationally in college. In my current position, I have a lot of free time and a great, supportive manager, so I’ve been developing tools to automate tasks and make reports more quickly. I hope to produce some cross-departmental programs for inventory management (we have an online store, which is my focus) in the next few years. I’d love to make this kind of thing my long-term career, but I’m unwilling to work the long hours typically expected of true software developers, so I’d prefer roles like this one, where I’m an accountant who can program rather than a software developer who knows accounting. I won’t be looking for another few years, most likely.

    Any advice on how to look for roles where companies are really enthusiastic about an unusual skill combo? I’m also interested in stories from people who have made any kind of unusual skill combo work for them in their career.

    1. Kes*

      I don’t have too much to suggest on the unusual skill combinations role between just searching for job postings referencing both accounting and automation.
      However, I would also say that there are software developer positions that are fairly 9-5 and don’t require long hours (some may require occasional longer hours if an issue arises or support for an overnight or weekend release), so if that is something you’re interested in I wouldn’t rule it out, but would consider pursuing it carefully (avoid startups and fields like game development and look for a more corporate culture) and looking for clues about the work-life balance of the company (you can even just ask how much overtime is typically required in this role during the interview)

      1. K.H. Wolf*

        Thanks, Kes. I think I read too many horror stories about long hours without stopping to think that no one complains about a 40-hour work week. Of course that’s all I heard about.

    2. M. Albertine*

      Look into Business Analytics and see if what you’re learning can be applied to jobs in that field. The ability to pull raw data and aggregate it into actionable information is a highly sought-after skill.

      1. OtterB*

        Seconding this. Business analytics, information systems, areas like that can value both the content knowledge and the technical skills.

        1. Just browsing*

          +2
          If you have relation database knowledge and SQL skills in addition to coding, that can be extremely useful in a combo with accounting. Look at titles like business analyst, finance business partner, and financial planning and analysis (FP&A) analyst for ideas of what’s involved.
          My background is similar but more advanced (BA in Comp Sci and CPA) and this combo is extremely valuable when trying to get various reports created, because you can speak finance to accountants and code to IT and literally translate the needs of one into the design requirements for the other.

    3. Buffy*

      This is the type of role I’ve had for almost 30 years now spread across 3 major companies. Look for Business Analyst or Business Process Manager type roles. They tend to lie in Finance department but most companies do need people with accounting and IT skills to actually run their systems and do the UAT/PPE validations of new system features/changes as well as audit and ensure the integrity of the data. I’m neither an accountant (although I have significant training and education in accounting) nor a software developer (although I have significant background in SQL and can read and write queries on a relational database).

    4. K.H. Wolf*

      Thanks, everyone who responded. I really appreciate the advice. I have a better idea of where to focus my skill development now.

    5. Dancing Otter*

      Late to comment — I hope you see this.
      Accounting system implementation sounds as though it would be right up your alley. It might mean doing some training in project management eventually.
      Obviously, this isn’t a skill that a business needs frequently, so most people who specialize in it do so as part of a consulting firm. The big software vendors (SAP, for example) and tech consulting firms (such as Accenture) have teams who help implement new or upgraded installations for clients.
      Don’t rule out the big CPA firms, either: most have consulting arms to help their clients choose and implement financial software (and other things); and a CPA isn’t necessary there, because you wouldn’t be doing attest functions.

  53. Sunshine Brite*

    We have an influx of new staff that started together about 3 months ago (think about 1/4 of a small team) and it’s clear we have a bigger management problem than I originally thought. I work in a non-traditional setting (bureaucratic, hierarchical, highly structured, & secure setting type teapot warehouse doing llama herding). As the new herders who started are women and we only had one man on the existing team, the narrative that is accepted is that we’re having “interpersonal problems” and being catty… this narrative has stood even though 2 other herders have been subsequently introduced to the team without issue.

    Every existing staff member individually brought concerns about each of the new members when the training did not occur in the way we had been trained and strong boundary problems were occurring almost immediately. Boundary problems here equal a safety concern. None completed the new herder checklist. We tried talking about it as a team and the new herders were allowed without management reframing to call the existing herders judgmental and high school like.

  54. inlovewithwords*

    I am feeling very brave right now. I pushed back on a meeting being scheduled on Yom Kippur yesterday. It’s a very small thing, I know, and I’m not usually too terribly observant, but I lost my grandmother last month. And I knew Yom Kippur might be a conflict for someone who wasn’t in the meeting at the time but wasn’t sure, but either way, huge conflict for me this year. I don’t know. It’s a really small thing, but I work for a small non-profit and we’re working with a really big company, so it felt brave to just cheerfully say, “Sorry, Wednesday won’t work at all, can we do Thursday instead?” Having gone to schools where the high holidays were not automatically off by any means, that felt really scary to do.

    1. finally october*

      I’m so sorry about your grandmother. I hope you have a good and meaningful Yom Kippur.

    2. Earthwalker*

      As a project manager I called meetings whenever I could find open time on members’ calendars. I could imagine having scheduled a Yom Kippur meeting without noticing it, and I would have been grateful (if embarrassed) to be notified of the mistake.

      1. mobuy*

        I agree. There are not a lot of Jewish people in my area, so Yom Kippur is not really on my radar. I’d be grateful for a reminder!

    3. iglwif*

      Good for you! It’s great that you did that, and I’m glad it went well. G’mar chatima tova!

      And I’m so sorry for the loss of your grandmother. May her memory be a blessing.

    4. Filosofickle*

      For me it was freeing to realize that people ask for what they want, but that didn’t mean I had to comply. I can counter-offer, and that is (usually) respected or even expected. “Wednesday isn’t good, how’s Thursday?” is a very neutral and normal response while scheduling. You don’t have to explain why — you could have been unavailable for a hundred different reasons. (Tho IMO saying I’m out for Yom Kippur is also totally fine.)

  55. Sweatpants*

    Long time reader, first time question here… I’m starting to think it’s time to look around for a new job. I could easily stay where I am, but I’m beginning to feel a bit stagnant. One of my fears about starting a search is that I’m afraid of “checking out” of my current job. Does anyone else have this problem, and what do you do to keep your head in your current position while looking at greener pastures?

    1. merp*

      In my last job, I started thinking of my current work in terms of “biggest priorities to wrap up before I leave” – it helped me focus on doing things well and thoroughly instead of worrying about job apps. This was partially helpful for me because I had a timeline in mind because of my lease being up and moving to a new (but commutable) town – so I made a list that was labeled “before summer starts” on my desk but had privately labeled it “before I leave” in my head.

      1. Sweatpants*

        Prepping a list of what I’d like to have finished before any possible change is a good idea–I can think of a couple of things that should be on that list, just off the top of my head. Thanks!

    2. Filosofickle*

      Sheryl Sandberg’s book was mostly annoying, but I took a lot from her “don’t leave before you leave” advice. It’s a good mindset. You don’t know how long it will take to get out. You don’t even know that you’ll want to leave, after you see what the alternatives are. You want to maintain awesome references and collegial connections. It’s in your best interest to keep your foot on the gas all the way til the moment you walk out the door.

      That should not be a reason not to look. See what’s out there! It’s good to grow and explore. And the best time to do that is before you’re absolutely sure it’s time. That’s what will help you keep up the energy to keep your head in the game. Once you’re totally bored / over it, it’ll be a lot harder.

      1. Sweatpants*

        I’ve never really been in the position of “looking before necessary” before–it’s kind of nice! I like your perspective of looking now is actually *better* for keeping my head in the game, than waiting until it’s past time to be looking. Thanks!

  56. Pam Beesly*

    I dealt with a really raw situation earlier this week, and I’m still trying to process it.

    On Tuesday morning, my coworker came to my cubicle in tears, and whispered, “can you please come into the bathroom with me?” I followed her in there, and she immediately started bawling and telling me how her husband had been abusing her for the past year. For context, she’s in her mid 40’s, and has two kids in college. Her younger kid just went off to college this last month for the first time, and apparently she had been waiting for her kids to both be out of the house before she divorced him. However, the abuse had only gotten worse over the last month. The day my coworker shared this with me, she was supposed to go to a work conference with several others in our office (the conference started that afternoon) through Friday (today). Apparently, her husband was IRATE that she was staying in a hotel, rather than driving back and forth each day (she lives about 50 minutes from the conference). He had threatened to take her vehicle and shut off her phone if she didn’t come home that evening.

    After she shared this with me, she asked if she thought it was okay if she left for the rest of the morning until her conference to get a phone under a new account, and collect some things from her house with a friend (her husband was at work). Just in the time I was in the bathroom with her (15 minutes), her husband called her phone about 25 times. She also showed me texts from him calling her offensive names, and once again threatening to take her car and phone (both under his name) if she didn’t come home to him that evening. I told her that of course it was fine for her to leave, and encouraged her to please contact me if she needed ANYTHING at all. I was so worried about her safety, and wanted to make sure she was okay leaving the office on her own. She assured me she was fine, and had a meeting with a lawyer on Friday (today) once the conference ended.

    What broke my heart is that she was SO worried about missing the conference/getting in trouble for not being in the office that morning (her manager is out of town, so she couldn’t loop him into what was going on…and may have not wanted to, anyway). I assured her that EVERYONE at my company is here to support her, and told her to please not worry about work (she’s an excellent employee and everyone knows her absence would not reflect a lack of work ethic).

    I’ve been keeping in contact with her since she left on Tuesday (she hasn’t come back to the office since she’s been at the conference), and she seems okay. She felt safe in the hotel, and hasn’t been in contact with her husband.

    I’m just worried about her still. She texted me this morning that she was on her way to meet with her lawyer. I just wish I could help more…

    1. Emily*

      Firstly — as a past victim of domestic abuse (an abusive/alcoholic spouse), I want to thank you for taking time to speak with her, encourage and support her, and listen to her needs.

      Further:

      My view is that you should take further action *outside of work* to, if possible, help her get more assistance.

      There are many organizations, such as Women Helping Women, YWCA women’s shelters, and various other nonprofit groups who can help her with her process of leaving the relationship/marriage. Also, there is an organization called the Legal Aid Society — if she needs help with finances/paying for her legal assistance, there are specific groups that can help her with that. There are attorneys that do pro-bono work for this type of thing. She would need to go through an organization though, probably. (Even the local Bar Association could help direct her, if you can’t find a legal aid group nearby.)

      She will need a friendly ear, and if you can be a kind, non-judgmental, friendly ear and shoulder for her to lean on — that will help her immensely. More than words can say.

      She has to be ready to truly leave this relationship, though. So this is where you come in. I think in this situation, what she needs most is more encouragement, more support — more of you telling her that you personally, and the firm, support her and will help her get through this extremely difficult and painful time.

      Speaking more personally, my abusive marriage was 3.5 years, and if I may speak frankly… It was absolutely toxic for me. I am still working through in therapy, and I’ll always have the scars (both physical and psychological). Only now, > 3 years after I left (working through therapy) and got my divorce finalized, am I really able to speak about it without re-living the painful and awful memories of what my life was like on a day-to-day basis during that relationship.

      Please let me know how this sounds to you, and what more you think you might be able to do for her.

      Best of luck,
      Emily

      1. Pam Beesly*

        Emily, thank you so much for sharing your story. From the bottom on my heart, I am so sorry that you went through this. You have given me a lot of perspective and wonderful suggestions as to how I can be of further help to her. I really appreciate it.

        1. Emily*

          Dear Pam,

          Thanks. It’s such a hard situation your colleague is in, and so many people experience this in silence. It can be terrifying to speak out, when an abuser is exerting that sort of controlling, violent behavior over you.

          Now that I’ve had the space, therapy, and time-wise distance of 3 years, only now am I able to talk about these experiences from this perspective.

          I believe that, particularly given the #MeToo and Time’s Up movements we’ve seen in the US over the past two years, I am starting to think that perhaps — perhaps, now, (finally!) there is a tide that is slowly beginning to turn. More people are beginning to understand that this type of abuse is never acceptable, not under any circumstances. We all need to value ourselves and each other enough to encourage and support each other (especially when we see something — we have to SAY something). Because no one should ever have to experience abuse or assault, but the reality is that something like one in three women (in the US) have, or will at some point, experience this in their lifetimes. (I don’t know the stat for men; at any rate, far too many cases are not ever reported to authorities, so statistics are difficult to calculate.)

          Speaking personally again here, I know of far too many college classmates, friends, and loved ones who, over the years, have experienced various levels of harassment, abuse, assault, rape, and other forms of attack. Mind you — I am not only speaking of women here, now — this is all victims. Quite a few men have come forward too, with their own gruesome stories of abuse/harassment/assault.

          I believe that truly, things need to change at a societal level. But that is getting into a whole other conversation, which is perhaps not appropriate for this venue. I’m needing to get back to work now, but I’m so glad that you wrote your comment, and I truly appreciate your response today.

          Remember this, Pam:
          We’re all in this together. Sometimes it’s so, so tough to be optimistic, or have a positive view, but I find for me, I always have to look for the GOOD in the world — which there is so much of. Sometimes you have to work at that. But it’s always there somewhere.

          I’ll leave you with a quote from Fred Rogers. One of my favorite quotes. Moving beyond this quote’s sentiment — in addition to focusing on the positive, looking at the good side, I strive to be a positive contributor to those around me, and the world. I want to be a helper to others. And focus on the good in the world.

          “When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, “Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.” To this day, especially in times of “disaster,” I remember my mother’s words and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in this world.”
          -Fred Rogers

    2. Lurker*

      Hi Pam,
      I used to be an advocate for victims of DV and I just wanted to say I understand how wrenching it can be to see people that you care about going through this sort of situation.

      It sounds like you did all of the right things in the moment (you took your cues from your friend and helped her to develop a plan to stay safe). Practically speaking now, one thing that can be super challenging for victims is having to walk away from all of their things. Obviously her lawyer will be working on getting her safe access to her home and her belongings, but helping her to get basics like clothes, toiletries, and even underwear, can be crucial in helping a survivor keep going until that time.

      Hope this helps and you’re doing a great thing!

    3. Username required*

      I’m sorry if this sounds alarmist but do you have security at your offices and can you give them a heads up about the situation just in case.

      1. valentine*

        Including a picture of the guy, his license plate, and any contact info. I don’t know if asking local police for advice or for them to drive by more often would be a good idea.

        Can you do anything to anonymize your coworker? If the husband has the conference/hotel details, or even if not, I’d be trying to get her out of it, unless not being there is more dangerous. Even changing her to a different room under a different name wouldn’t stop people who want to help her husband if he claims he has a surprise or an emergency. And she’ll have to keep things from her kids because they’re guaranteed leaks.

    4. Filosofickle*

      I’m so glad she came to you! It’s a lot for you to take in, but that she knew you would be a safe space is a great thing. She knows she has someone in her corner. She needs that more than ever right now. Keep listening and helping her how you can. <3

    5. OhBehave*

      I truly hope her lawyer gave her local advocates to contact. This is the most dangerous time for her – leaving. Please keep us posted.
      Thank you for being there for her.

  57. JustaTech*

    How do I convince senior management to get rid of a racist sculpture our most important vendor had made for us?

    Our most important vendor (without whom our company can not function) recently gifted us with a custom made totem pole. This thing is large (the size of a 10-year-old), objectively hideous, and frankly offensive. (Basically, in Pacific Northwest Native culture totem poles are very important personal, family objects, not decorative art. Displaying ones stolen from native people is totally unacceptable, but non-native people making and displaying them is not OK either.)

    No one wants this thing. It was sent to our site as a surprise by the CEO of our vendor. He thinks it’s awesome (and has a matching one in his office). As far as I know he has never visited our office and never will.
    Mid-level management doesn’t want it. All us chickens don’t want it.

    So, do we go to the COO (head person at our site) and ask permission to stuff it in the basement, or should the person with Alaska Native family go to HR to ask to have it removed?

    The Alaskan person has described it as “one of those blackface jockys”, and it is very prominently placed in our office.

    So: HR or COO?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      This is an office culture question….but personally, I’d want to go to either HR or the COO as a group. Unless they explicitly want to, don’t make your single Alaskan Native person complain without offering to back them up. Make it a group issue. It’s hard enough being the only person of a specific minority group around, without having to be the main advocate as well.

    2. zora*

      I agree with ExcelJedi, I think that specific question depends on your office specifically. Think about what you know of HR and the COO and how they have handled other issues, to figure out the person who you think will understand the issue right away and also have the clout to enforce the solution.

      If you personally aren’t sure, I’d ask around the other people who also want to get rid of the thing.
      In my company I’d definitely start with HR, as they have been pretty good about understanding diversity issues, at least when things are explicitly pointed out to them.

    3. iglwif*

      Yiiiikes.

      I agree with ExcelJedi that this is an office culture question, but I personally would (a) gather a group consensus–either in person or via some kind of co-signed letter–to go to the COO/HR with, and (b) go to whichever one of them seems likeliest to be receptive to the issues. Definitely don’t make it the one person’s job–nobody wants it, and okay, that person has the most standing to be personally offended, but if everyone else also understands why it’s offensive, then everyone else should make that clear, IYSWIM. (Although, that said, I think the description of it as being like “one of those blackface jockeys” might be SUPER useful in helping to make the point about WHY it’s offensive…)

      1. Lurker*

        I think that the one thing you don’t want to do is put the person who has Native American heritage to the heavy lifting here. It can be pretty crappy to be put in the position of hapless white people educator all the time.

    4. JustaTech*

      Thanks for the advice, all!
      For more detail, my Alaskan coworker is not *herself* native Alaskan, she has native Alaskan family, but you’re still right that it’s not fair to ask her to go in there alone (although she’s got more social capital at the moment because her group is working a high-profile project, so she might bring more weight).

      It helps that several layers of management think this thing is bad, and the COO wasn’t thrilled about getting it in the first place (which is why it’s on my floor and not hers).
      I think next week I’ll try to round up a group (including the senior folks) and go to the COO (when she isn’t busy) and say “look, this thing is hideous and offensive. Can we stuff it in the basement unless VendorCEO is coming by?”

      I think that will will be the best option.

    5. tamarack and fireweed*

      Goodness. My tendency would be to say, “both, as a group”. And yes, even via HR you shouldn’t leave it to the colleague with indigenous family connection to spend their social capital. Make it clear why you all find it completely inappropriate.

      (And don’t whip it out in case the vendor is coming to visit. They may be important to your functioning, but they’re still a vendor, and you’re their client. If REALLY pressed, and you say yourself it’s unlikely, “we didn’t decide to exhibit it in public” as a first-approximation answer, and if it’s not enough “given the cultural importance of ceremonial poles in PNW indigenous culture, having it here wasn’t something we think is appropriate for us”. )

  58. Liza*

    I have been tasked with compiling a presenting a 6 session “employability” course. The 6 2-hour sessions are aimed at people who have been in long term disability for mental health, helping to prepare them for seeking work. I have been sent a whole bunch of materials to help with this, but little I can use in its current state. To make things worse, there is a lot of what I would class as “bad advice” included in the materials, including the old “75% of jobs are hidden” chestnut, a cold calling script, and half a dozen stories about gimmicky job hunting techniques (a guy who walked up and down the high street with a “please hire me” sandwich board, among others). I don’t want to visibly be going against the materials provided by the contractor, but how do I go about presenting this responsibly?

    There are also multiple skills quizzes, which all follow the same format where people rate their agreement to such notions as “I can arrive to appointments on time” and “I am able to make decisions”. While I believe these will be great for building people’s confidence (assuming they are in agreement for at least a few of them) I worry that a lot of them cannot be evidenced in any way, particularly by those who have been out of work for many years.

    Does anybody have any thoughts? What would you like to see in something like this? And what should we avoid? I have a certain degree of autonomy here but I don’t want to ruffle too many feathers!

    1. Jamie*

      Preaching to the choir here, but definitely focus on the importance of a cover letter and good resume.

      1. Liza*

        Strangely enough, cover letters don’t feature on their itinerary at all. I think possibly they assumed that the kind of jobs our clientele would be applying for would be online applications and no cover letters. There’s definitely a push to format CVs in such a way that items are easily copyable into an online form.

        That said, they have included cover letters in the materials, so I can add them in pretty easily using the existing resources, just in case.

    2. OtterB*

      It seems to me like it would help to prepare them to answer questions about why they have been out of the workforce, so getting prepared to say “It was a medical issue that is now under control.”

      1. Liza*

        Yeah, this is a sensitive area with a lot of fear around it. We have a whole section on disclosure (the pros and cons) asking for accommodation if needed, where the law stands and how it is realistically applied in practice (it’s illegal to discriminate, but we know all too well that it does happen). That’s going to be week one because its absolutely an important starting point. Very few of our attendees are going to be fully out of the woods mental health wise, and most have lifelong diagnoses that are being managed but cannot be cured. Exploring and acknowledging barriers to employment is a big part of the process.

    3. Llellayena*

      I’d start with replying to whoever gave you the assignment with “There seems to be a lot of outdated advice in this package. Hiring practices have advanced in the last few years, do you mind if I update some of this to reflect the current climate?” Possibly include a link to one of the relevant AAM articles (there’s quite a few to pick from). Do you work directly with these job-seekers at all? Do you know what type of jobs they are applying for? I mean, some will be applying to retail or application only but some will be trying to get back into office jobs so you might need categorized packages for the different application types. Topics I could see in some of those 2-hr sessions are: how to address an employment gap in a *cover letter, resume, application, interview,” networking the right way, scheduling and transportation to interviews (some may not have reliable transportation or easy schedules), current workplace norms (dress and presentation, co-worker interaction), interview preparation and practice, interview follow-up and what not to do, job searching resources, how to talk with your manager AFTER being hired if health problems return (not happy to think about but there may be some who end up relapsing). I’m sure other people will have ideas beyond this too. Good luck and it sounds like it will (eventually) be a great resource!

  59. Job searching while pregnant*

    I want your stories!! What should I be looking out for?

    I’ve been doing lots of interviews and I’m hopeful to get a couple offers in the next couple weeks. I’m 19 weeks and sort-of-showing. I get pretty good benefits currently (2 wks maternity leave, FLMA available, all the flex time I could never need) and I want to make sure I’m not screwing myself over benefits-wise with my next job move, though I expect my prospects offer flexibility and reasonable benefits generally.

    If I do get an offer: I plan to ask about maternity leave, and negotiate for it if necessary (I’ll be at the company only about 4-5ish months by the time I’m due). Should I disclose I’m pregnant? I plan to get to back to working as soon as I’m physically able post-birth — should I say anything to that effect? What do I do?!

    1. Fikly*

      Did you see the recent post about the manager who was essentially expressing that she wouldn’t have hired her new employee if she had known she was pregnant? That’s why you do not disclose.

      2. Natalie*

        Job searching is talking about disclosing at the offer stage, that’s a bit different than disclosing at the interview stage. A sensible company won’t pull an offer after that since it would be fairly obvious the reason was unlawful discrimination.

    2. Emi.*

      Don’t say anything until you have an offer, then ask about all the benefits (and negotiate from there if you want/need to).

    3. ElizabethJane*

      I’ve also had good luck asking the question early on in a way that captures all types of leave. So I’ll ask something like “How do you handle leave? Not just PTO, which is obviously really important, but Sick, Parental, and disability leave? I’ve found that the way a company structures this says a lot about its culture”.

      Possibly gimicky but it seems a little smoother than being like “Tell me about your maternity leave nothatineeditcoughcoughcough”

        1. Clisby*

          It’s a good question even for someone who’s not pregnant – after all, she might become pregnant in future. I’d also ask about family leave. I worked for an employer that didn’t allow people to take sick leave to take care of sick children/parents/etc. (of course, some people did, but they had to lie to do it.) There was a separate 5 days a year for family leave.

      2. Ann Perkins*

        This! For before you have an offer. Once you have an offer, at that point I would negotiate what your leave would look like in terms of pay and time out, especially if it’s unclear how long you have to have been there for benefits to count (for companies that provide paid maternity leave, the requirement that it kicks in after 1 year is common).

        I wouldn’t necessarily worry about them pulling the offer once they find out you’re pregnant because you don’t want to work for a company that would do that anyway.

        1. ElizabethJane*

          Also that’s illegal and it would be a royal pain in the arse for them to defend themselves against that.

    4. Federal Middle Manager*

      This has been covered in a lot of places, but even if your workplace is required to comply with FMLA, individual employees are not covered unless they have worked at that employer for 12 months. So you would not be covered by FMLA in a new place if you switched jobs now.

  60. Alternative Person*

    Been having a bit of a week this week, the usual, but amped up about three levels.

    Also, been job hunting and seem to have hit something of a ceiling, salary wise. I was researching next stage positions and saw one that wanted a diploma level qualification (which I have), lots of experience in specific areas (ditto), with accompanying administration work (have some of that and they offered training on the rest), a range of managerial duties (do want), but posted a salary that worked out to just over 8 euros per hour (what?). I was paid more in an entry level position nearly a decade ago when I was far less qualified (In a higher COL area compared to the positions I saw, but still). Other, similar positions had no salary posted or salary discussed at interview, which didn’t give me much hope.

    I figured with salaries somewhat tied to local economic conditions that I might have to take something of a pay cut in order to move up (especially since my pay is currently skewed because I’m getting high contracting rates right now), but now I’m starting to see why so many older folks do hybrid short term contract + regular part time schedules.

  61. Eillah*

    Why does Outlook occasionally send me emails to remove meetings from my calendar that I definitely have not cancelled? For reference I’m an admin and manage both my and my bosses calendar.

    1. JustaTech*

      Because sometimes Outlook calendars can be buggy as all get out?
      I’m not being snarky, it just seems to be one of those things.
      My director once sent more than 500 meeting invitations to the entire department. I think that was a case of the mobile version of Outlook not sync’ing correctly with the desktop version, and a weird feedback loop with everyone else who had mobile and desktop versions of Outlook.

      People at my company have also watched as Outlook randomly deleted an email out of a boss’s inbox before he even read it (which cleared up the confusion about why people weren’t sending him all the emails he asked for).

  62. RoughyQueen*

    My employer, a small-mid-sized professional association (think Association of Teapot Industry Professionals), recently hired its first HR manager to handle personnel issues (previously we just had a benefits administrator). And…one of the HR manager’s first actions has been to conduct a detailed audit of each employee’s online presence and provide write-ups for their files on items deemed to be “inappropriate.” Really…I do get looking for obvious signs of things like discriminatory/hate speech (especially if somewhat recent), but otherwise this seems to be a huge overreach in connection with average office workers, especially considering none of us work with children/vulnerable populations. My write-up noted two instances of inappropriate photos – one was a throwback photo from 20 years ago that a friend posted last year about a time we all went to the Renaissance Faire and dressed in costumes (somewhat low-cut with a lace-up bodice, but otherwise full coverage), and the other was a photo of me from a few years ago in a bridesmaid’s dress (the dress was lower-cut than I would wear to work, certainly, but not particularly immodest by formal dress standards) holding what looked like champagne (it was sparkling cider, I actually don’t drink alcohol). My name isn’t publicly associated with my employer on any social media accounts, nor is my name on my employer’s website – I don’t have any kind of public profile at all. In addition, the HR manager noticed that my posts indicated I had ended a relationship a couple years ago and moved, so clearly I was living with a partner to whom I was not married and thus engaging in “inappropriate things outside of marriage.” Finally, I was written up for posting in support of a friend who was going through mental health struggles because I had cited my own battle with depression some years ago, thus making myself out to be “unstable.” I should add that my social media accounts are set to very private settings and are generally just for interacting with a handful of friends and family members; however, the HR manager conducted intensive background investigations on everyone and did not just look at easily accessible public info. I am not off-base in thinking this is a huge overreach, right? And that I should probably just start job-hunting?

      1. voyager1*

        I would see what HR crazy lady wrote about other folks and if possible go as a group to whoever she reports too and see if you can get this person gone. This person is a discrimination time-bomb waiting to go off.

        I would also be very tempted to shame this person publicly .

        But to answer your question. This is an overreach by miles and you need to be applying for jobs yesterday.

        So sorry this happened to you.

        1. Reba*

          Holy shit. It’s absurd and not okay, and I’m sorry to read it’s apparently coming from the top.

          Is there a board or governing body you could discreetly notify of this invasive research? I’m presuming that the org doesn’t have any religious affiliation or other kind of morality…I don’t know the word I’m looking for, but no like obvious justification for this. That means that other people are not likely to share the ED’s view on this. And might even be unhappy to learn that resources are being wasted on surveilling employees!

          Get new job, leave, tell them why, post on GlassDoor or wherever — preferably somewhere that your clients/members would see it.

          1. RoughyQueen*

            Nope! We’re a professional association for an industry not associated with any particular religion and there was no morality clause in any of my original employment documents or our employee handbook (I checked). We do have a Board of Directors but I don’t have a direct relationship with any of them. Honestly I would be afraid to notify anyone on the board before I have another job lined up, just in case the board was directing our ED to implement this policy? So maybe I should just keep my head down and job-hunt and in the meantime hope that someone more senior pushes back.

        2. RoughyQueen*

          Come to think of it, what I am most upset about here is getting criticized for mentioning my past struggle with depression in a conversation with friends that, while obviously not completely private, was also not readily available to the public. The other critiques are an overreach, but not necessarily discriminatory as long as they are applied to everyone. (Which is seems they are – for example, one of my coworkers was a college swimmer so there are lots of pics available of him in his competition swimsuit – he got a write-up for that, even though the pics were clearly in the context of organized athletic competitions and not partying at the pool/beach.)

          2. BRR*

            This is absolutely horrible no matter what. Saying you are “unstable” due to a mental health condition is very shaky legal wise and any HR person should know better. Run. Did the HR manager friend you since you mentioned you have private settings? If so block them immediately.

            1. RoughyQueen*

              My understanding is that the company hired an investigator/background check service to look into people’s social media and other online presence. None of my current work colleagues are friends on social media – certainly not the HR manager! During my performance counseling meeting, I was presented with printouts of the “inappropriate” photos and posts with the offending items circled in red pen. There’s nothing like being confronted at work with a photo from many years ago that shows me with a hint of cleavage and has the cleavage circled in red pen – ugh!!!

              1. MissGirl*

                This is appalling and disgusting. It puts the bikini Instagram todo this week to shame. What a powder keg.

              2. The New Wanderer*

                Whoever they hired were clearly instructed to find anything and everything even the slightest bit … not 100% conservative? I don’t even know how to describe criteria that would warrant results including “wearing a dress” or “wearing a swimsuit at a swim meet” or “mentioning emotions.” Because that’s all part of existing while human.

                That’s so unpleasant, I would be looking to get out ASAP unless everyone in the office revolts against HR over this. Or takes it to social media and shame the company ala the recent bikini Instagram mess MissGirl mentioned. Ideally both. That’s not a tenable work environment and the ED deserves to lose the whole staff over this.

      2. RoughyQueen*

        I checked with the executive director’s assistant, with whom I have always had a very collegial relationship, and she said that the ED specifically requested that the HR manager implement an “employee integrity” initiative with these parameters. She shook her head and said she had also been written up because she has a personal blog about her wine tasting adventures. So it definitely does seem like a top-down thing. But ridiculous because none of this has anything to do with “employee integrity” – but with imposing very specific and arbitrary values on employees.

          1. RoughyQueen*

            His assistant said the ED did indeed mean all this, unfortunately: to do rigorous background investigations regarding all aspects of personal behavior outside of work, including attire, alcohol consumption, sexual behavior, mental health, etc. (No one is being fired at this time, but essentially everyone is being given a formal written warning that any further evidence of doing All the Things will result in termination.)

            1. SarahKay*

              WOW. Just… WOW!
              Hope ED doesn’t expect to retain any staff because this would have me job-hunting and pronto.

            2. BRR*

              So they’re threatening to fire people due to mental health? Everything else is shitty but I believe this is illegal.

              1. RoughyQueen*

                It was presented as that I create a liability for the company because my depression could flare up at any time (their words, not mine), make me unstable/unreliable, and I could potentially do something to embarrass the company. Not sure if that’s illegal but it’s a HUGE stretch.

                2. Llellayena*

                  Umm, hell yes. You’re being discriminated against for something that directly impacts your quality of life in profound ways when it flares up. I’m not discounting the fact that it’s probably well under control via medication or whatever, but it’s ridiculous to penalize someone for something that MIGHT happen. I MIGHT suddenly get diagnosed with cancer and have an unreliable schedule due to chemo. My friend had RA that would flare at unpredictable intervals and she wouldn’t be able to climb the stairs to her office on those days. But getting WRITTEN UP for something like that is idiotic and discriminatory. If there’s anyone else you can find with similar write-ups, get them together and push back as a group. Bring the policing of the morality stuff up as a related issue but not the main issue. Hit them with the stuff that could seriously get them in trouble first.

                3. SarahKay*

                  But that’s absolute bulls**t. One in four people will suffer with mental health issues at some point in their lives; you’re just one of the few who has admitted to it.
                  No wonder there’s such huge stigma against admitting it when you have cr@ppy people like your ED and HR leaders behaving like this. And sorry (well, no, not sorry), in this case I’m perfectly happy in describing the person as crappy and not just the behaviour.
                  Oh, and it’s definitely illegal in the UK, and from a quick google it looks like ADA would make it illegal in the US too.

                4. Sunshine Brite*

                  I would think this would be illegal. Making stigmatizing claims about mental health. Is there a board of directors?

            4. Fortitude Jones*

              You need to begin job searching, like, yesterday. This is mind-bogglingly bad – the ED is backing this nonsense so unless you can go to the board and get them to shut this down, this madness will continue.

    2. ElizabethJane*

      What in the ever loving f—

      Fikly has it right. If the higher ups are OK with this run far and run fast.

    3. iglwif*

      What the ACTUAL LITERAL …

      Yes, you should start job-hunting. Especially now that I’ve seen your comment below saying the HR person was *told to do this* by people higher up! That’s in no way okay, holy crap.

    5. SarahKay*

      You are not off-base and this is a huge overreach. What on earth was this HR manager thinking?!?
      If HR person has the support of your manager/other higher-ups then I’d say now is the time to polish up your CV/resume and start looking for another place of employment as soon as you can.

    6. WellRed*

      OMG! She’s judging your personal life and sex life? This is not what HR does. She needs to be fired.

      1. WellRed*

        And don’t even get me started on the concept of “write ups” for adults. Add in the fact it’s for this BS and I”m appalled.

        1. RoughyQueen*

          Well, by that I mean a written memo placed in each employee’s file as a way of documenting the infraction – I think that’s pretty standard when conducting performance counseling? Except that you’re absolutely right that it isn’t the job of HR to be the morality police regarding behavior outside of work, except perhaps in extreme cases when the person’s behavior is illegal or objectively dangerous to others.

          1. Lisanthus*

            IANAL — and Alison will most likely have better advice on this if she sees this thread — but if this memo is being placed in your personnel file, can you (all) place a written response to the memo in your file(s) stating that you do not agree with the memo?

            Honestly, the more I see of your follow-up comments, the more I’d be inclined to at least see if you can get a free/low-cost consultation with a lawyer — while job-hunting — and see what the lawyer thinks of pushing back on the documentation in the file and the threat of firing. Especially since they went to the lengths of conducting a fishing expedition into employees’ personal lives and health dating back what sounds like decades. Was that expense approved by the association board? Was it even discussed with the board? That way you at least know your options.

            So sorry that you’re going through this. It’s a huge overreach.

            1. JustaTech*

              It sounds like every employee is getting a write-up for their social media? (Swim team? Wine tasting? This is just beyond beyond.)

              If everyone is getting written up would it be possible for *all* of you to go to the Board about it? Safety in numbers and a large volume of evidence and all that.

              Whatever your ED did on his month of recovery doesn’t seem like it made him any better (at least not as a boss).

              1. RoughyQueen*

                The write-ups are for social media, but include mentions on other people’s social media (for example, the photos of me were posted by other people – which had been fine with me, because I didn’t think of them as inappropriate or incriminating). They also include other aspects of online presence – for example, the swimmer was criticized for some news articles on college athletics that included photos in his college newspaper and other local media (archives available online), which he couldn’t have prevented except by…not being a college athlete? Another woman in our office was formerly a journalist with a beat that included medical/health matters, and a few articles with her byline addressed sexual health/dysfunction issues – and she was written up for having her name associated with “inappropriate content” – even though she had provided some clips from those articles as writing samples when she got the job with us a few years ago! Going to the board as a group may be a good idea – after all, the organization won’t function (and our members would be very angry) if they fire all/most of us.

                1. Lisanthus*

                  Sweet Baby Cthulu, they went through non-employees’ social media and archived media sources as well? And the examples of write-ups, in addition to your own, are completely surreal and absurd.

                  Unless the board is a) asleep at the wheel b) taking the same evangelical route the ED and HR manager seem to be, I would think that a group of employees going to them with “We have all been threatened with firing and write-ups placed in our personnel files, these are the lengths to which the ED and HR manager have gone to investigate our pasts for actions that are not illegal [consult a lawyer first to see how illegal/murky the write-ups and investigations are], and all the services we provide our members [for which they presumably pay dues to the association] will implode when we are all fired” might help.

                  I mean, in addition to just being WRONG, this clearly presents a legal, financial, and reputational risk to the association and the board. If this happened at one of the professional associations to which I belong and I found out about it, I’d be pretty damn angry, frankly. To the point of canceling my membership and contacting the board to explain exactly why I would never rejoin the association until the ED and HR manager were summarily fired. I suspect you have members who would do the same.

                  Good luck.

          2. Mr. Shark*

            This is completely insane. When I first read your post I thought it was about online activity during work (um, AAM 10x per day), but then you started talking about pictures of you…doing normal, average things…in your personal life…that aren’t even a bit risque and are mostly private.

            Wow! HUGE OVER REACH. I can’t even begin to understand how anyone would think that anything that you posted was even borderline bad behavior or would reflect poorly on the company. And I definitely can’t begin to understand why any company would want an audit like that.

            I guess if you are a board member or someone high up, and the company is going public, maybe I can see an investigation to make sure there is nothing in people’s past that could come back to haunt them. But not even close to borderline pictures of you in a bridesmaid’s dress or even a lace up bodice…that’s nothing, that’s like the woman that got shamed for a personal picture of her in her bikini (heck, even less so).

            Yes, I’d run for the hills. I normally agree that sometimes people on AAM suggest job changes much too quickly, but if this company is that invasive of your personal privacy, then I would want nothing to do with it.

    7. OtterB*

      Wow. Since this is at the ED’s direction, I think job hunting is the best approach. This is, as you recognized, an enormous overreach.

      I do think it would be helpful to take it to someone on the board, but understand your concern about not doing that until you have something else lined up.

    8. WellRed*

      So, I came back to read more comments on this. Since it’s at the behest of the ED I’m wondering, is this the first time ED has shown themselves to be unreasonable (or a bit too much, for lack of a better term other than crazy)?

      1. RoughyQueen*

        ED, as I understand from others in the company, had issues with his own personal conduct (drinking, serial affairs, etc.) for a while. I mean, not really my business there, but apparently it did start to interfere with work earlier this year. He took a one-month health-related leave, came back sober with no evidence of the other behaviors continuing, and joined an evangelical church. The HR manager (who seems to be a member of the same church?) joined the company soon after, and now they both seem to be applying his own new behavioral standards to everyone at the office. Neither of them is directly proselytizing so not sure there is anything to go on in terms of discrimination, though.

        1. Llellayena*

          Ugh, this is getting ickier by the minute. Yes there is almost certainly a spillover of religious morals here and if you can get any documentation that his church’s moral rules are what he’s trying to impose on his secular workplace, you might be able to bring it to the board and get it stopped (I hope).

        2. OtterB*

          This makes it sound more like Board may not know that ED has gone off the rails, meaning a better chance that they would be appalled rather than approving. But still a risk to you to reach out to them, of course

          1. CM*

            You could send them an anonymous letter letting them know what’s happening. (In 2019, it’s easier to be truly anonymous with snail mail than with email).

        3. CM*

          Now it all makes sense. It’s horrible, and it’s morally wrong, and I’m pretty sure discriminating against you for having a mental illness is illegal (check with a lawyer where you live), but it makes sense.

          I think you have to sort of treat this as notice of termination and make your plans accordingly (which might include preparing to sue for wrongful termination because of the mental illness thing — again, ask a lawyer). I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

    9. SomebodyElse*

      Ughh… how bizarre.

      Especially since you had things locked down fairly tight. I would thank them silently for pointing out the ability to find things on you… it will make it easier to plug those holes during your job search!

      1. RoughyQueen*

        Well, at the same time, I’m not sure I’d want to work for an employer who found any of those things to be an issue! Definitely don’t want to work for someone who considers it their business that I wore a pretty standard bridesmaid’s dress while holding a fizzy beverage some years ago. Or who thinks I should be punished at work for living with a partner while unmarried or being treated for depression in the rather distant past.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I think this is potentially illegal unless you have signed a written agreement for the background check, or unless you work in a job with government clearance levels or law enforcement type jobs.

      I think all of you need to push back on this and possibly consult with an attorney.

    11. Reliquary*

      Please schedule a consultation with a lawyer with expertise in worker’s rights. If possible, go with some of your co-workers who are just as upset as you are by this.

    12. One voice among many*

      Yes, you should probably just start job-hunting. With that HR lunatic running wild, the place you work won’t be open for much longer.

    13. Anono-me*

      Please request a copy of the entire right up. Most companies will give it to you. Then go talk to the lawyer

    14. Ellen*

      Is it possible that this is an effort to get everyone to quit so that ED and HR can then hire from the church’s congregation? All perfect Christians, no doubt!

  63. Going anon for this*

    I am extremely happy in my current job, both in what I do and my employer.

    Not actively job searching, but I am open to potentially being approached, because things are a little tight on the money side.

    I got approached by a HR person (only person) at a small start up. Had a phone interview with them today. I expressed a few concerns about the marketing on their website, and didn’t love the answer I got. He, in turn, seemed very interested in me, and when I named a salary 10k over my current, said it would be no problem, and said the next step was an interview with their chief of operations.

    I am strongly suspecting, based on what I learned in this interview, I will turn them down. However, I’m wondering if there’s a possibility that HR person doesn’t really know about their marketing strategy/philosophy, because he’s HR, and not the person making decisions there. Is it leading them on if I accept another interview if offered? I did tell him up front that I wasn’t actively looking and that I was happy in my current job. If the answer I get from the operations person is the same as HR person, I will turn them down, and it’s quite possible I will turn them down for other reasons.

    (As an aside, being interviewed while not desperate for a job is an amazing experience.)

    1. Coverage Associate*

      It’s not leading them on. There could be all kinds of issues that very much increase or decrease your interest level, which you can only learn from the hiring manager.

    2. Kes*

      It’s not leading them on to continue on in the process when you are unsure if you’ll accept and need more information to decide, which is what the process is for – to help both sides make a decision about whether it’s the right fit

    3. BRR*

      It’s only leading them on if you’re 100% sure you won’t take this job. You’re in the clear. You would take the interview to learn more about the role. And I wouldn’t 100% trust HR because they’re not in the marketing department.

    4. TimeTravelR*

      I really love being in the position of having a good job while interviewing for a great job. It does make it so much more comfortable!

    5. ten-four*

      Take the interview, don’t worry about leading them on. If you absolutely knew that you’d 100% never work there, then that would be a waste of everyone’s time. But the actual purpose of interviewing is to suss out stuff like this – you’re evaluating them too.

  64. AnonLurker Appa*

    I’m a professional musician, and I want some advice about setting up a website.

    I’ve been doing this for about 10 years picking up work from other musicians I’m friends with who were unavailable, and it’s time for me to put out my own shingle.

    I know there are a bunch of website template services out there (ie squarespace, wordpress). I’d like to hire someone with experience to help me set up the website.

    Where do I hire someone to help me with this? What job titles would I look for? About how much do you think I’m looking at for something like this costing?

    Or do folks have experience setting up their own websites and say I should just dive in and try it myself? I’m around 30. It seems like this process might be relatively equivalent to working with PowerPoint, and I’m pretty darn comfortable with that, been using it since elementary school.

    This is ostensibly something that is google-able, but it’s a bit overwhelming with all the folks trying to sell me stuff of unknown quality and ease of use.

    1. zora*

      squarespace has a free trial version, and it’s really super easy! I’d start with messing around on there for a couple of hours and see if you like what you can make yourself. There’s even a Musicians And Bands category in their templates!

      But don’t spend too long, if you aren’t feeling super happy with your options there, then there are definitely professionals that can help for not much money. But use the musician community! Ask around, look at the websitess of musicians you know, and find the ones you like the most. And then ask them how they set it up! From my experience, it’s a community that is happy to help each other and you can get good suggestions. And there are freelancers who specialize in setting up band websites, so your best bet is to find some recommendations for one of them who is good because they can do it quickly and will have lots of suggestions for you.

    2. wingmaster*

      I used Wix for my first website. It’s pretty user friendly, and I think you should give it a try yourself! Wix offers templates for different types, such as e-commerce to portfolio. When I got comfortable using Wix, I decided to move my website to BlueHost. I wanted to have my own domain name, and BlueHost was cheaper than Wix.

    3. La la laaaa*

      I’m a writer but I’ve loved Squarespace for my site. And I’m making a music/art one for my boyfriend now. I have 0 experience, and I just kind of cobbled together what I liked from other sites and spent an afternoon on it.

      That said, if you want someone to do it for you for cheap, I’d recommend finding a local university and seeing if there’s a web design class. A professor might know if any current or former students freelance to build their portfolios, which would be cheap for you and helpful for them! And students tend to be very up on the new trends in web design, etc. I’d just be veryyy specific about what you want. For another website I designed and had someone make for me, I actually drew a thumbnail version on graph paper with all the fonts and a color scheme, and it turned out great.

    4. KoiFeeder*

      Thirding Squarespace! I’m, quite frankly, a massive idiot when it comes to coding, and I like that Squarespace just gives me blocks and tells me what to do with them. It’s pretty nice.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I’ve always used WordPress, and there are a number of free themes (aka templates) for all sorts of creative work.

      The most recent versions are drag-and drop, very user friendly.

      The best place to start is to look up websites for other musicians that you admire, to get ideas. If you google “identify website theme” or “analyze website tool”, you’ll find a number of online tools that can analyze any website you put in, and tell you what theme and plugins they are using.

  65. Macedon*

    Few things make me lose faith in the hiring humanity more than a company/hiring manager who starts playing coy when asked about the budgeted salary range for a position. No, don’t ask my salary expectations instead of answering. Don’t say that your HR department has a policy not to disclose the salary, but you welcome me sharing my current salary instead for your internal guidance. No, don’t say there will be ample opportunity to discuss this in the Nth interview stage.

    Just give me the salary range, so I know whether it’s worth wasting both our time further. Withholding salaries like poker hands was never funny, but with the amount of hiring literature out there warning against the practice, its modern-day survival is downright bleak.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      “I find that companies who won’t discuss salary at this stage tend to be uncompetitive.” Mild smile.

      Because literally what reason can there be for not even checking alignment with a candidate?! If they’re hiring, they know their approximate budget. If they are hiring and have no clue on budget, RUN.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly. It’s usually a power play to withhold this information and/or they’re planning to grossly underpay whoever accepts the position. I was job searching early this year, and I withdrew from every place that wouldn’t give me a range without me having to practically beat it out of them.

  66. Aggretsuko*

    I’ve been at semi nervous breakdown this week.

    (a) “There’s 1100 records broken, when can you work on that?” Uh, NEVER, seriously. I started out here in Job A and then got moved to work on Jobs B, C, and D with another team, then ended up having Job A handed back to that team. Currently I am doing Job B all by myself and some of Job A, and the rest of Job A is with my evil old team. Job B is literally taking up all of my time and meanwhile Job A has turned into utter mismanagement trainwreck if 1100 records are broken (not our fault, but still). I had to openly say in a meeting that I just cannot get to working on that whatsoever because everything in Job B needs to be done immediately and is more on fire than all of Job A. I don’t want to quit doing Job A, but since the Job A team hates my guts and I’m back with my old team now, I am theoretically supposed to be transitioning out of Job A at some point. Now might as well be the time to do it. This is Too Much. I am an excellent juggler and I’m very fast and even I can’t keep up with the demand.

    (b) My job involves a lot of international mailing. To a lot of Chinese people. Who never receive anything in the mail. Ever ever ever ever ever. I spend a lot of time arguing with them that they need to spend extra money to get a tracking number or else they will never get anything. I waste a lot of time mailing them things for free that they won’t get. And then they’re all upset at me.
    (c) The BigBoss is now a finalist for another job and she’s only been here, what, two years and hasn’t done much yet?
    (d) Our hiring process to replace a lost staff member was canceled on us and we have to start from the drawing board AGAIN. WTF.

    (e) I am buddies with the 2nd in command and ranted to her for over an hour, even after work hours, about how Job B is utterly swamping me, but everyone else in my current team is even more swamped than I am and nobody is able to help anyone else out any more because we are all drowning too hard and can’t ever hire more people. We don’t have extra to fix anything broken, we can’t get other groups to fix anything, it’s just a mess. She actually volunteered to help me with my mailing yesterday, which was great and unexpected. I want the 2nd in command to be BigBoss now.

    (f) I have to have a one on one with my boss about the Job A/B situation on Monday. Sigh.

    No questions, just exhaustion.

    1. Gumby*

      for (b) – could you institute a policy that all packages that meet certain criteria (out of the country, for example) must have tracking numbers? Or just build the tracking into the price of the product? Basically, don’t allow “no tracking number” to be an option. If that means you lose customers… well, they were fairly unprofitable customers to start with, right?

    2. ten-four*

      That sounds dismal and you sound great. Can you carve out some regular time – an hour or two a week – to update the ol’ resume and start the process of getting on out of there? Your job sounds literally impossible, and it’s a terrible sign when the Big Boss leaves after 2 years.

  67. Srsly?*

    My company sent a diversity survey to all employees.
    The title of the survey closely resembles a slogan used by white supremacists.

    3. Srsly?*

      I’m leery of giving too much away, since some coworkers know I read this blog. But the words “all” and “matter” were 2/3 of the title. (If you’re not in the US, this might not mean much to you.)

      The survey itself was poorly done and the way the questions were worded seems almost designed to “prove” that the status quo is just fine. I don’t think it was deliberate. More like a good example of the sort of casual negligence that maintains systemic racism and sexism.

      1. OtterB*

        Ugh. As someone who does surveys as a big part of their job, I wish people wouldn’t do this crap. (“Our record on diversity is, choose one: Good, Excellent, Outstanding.”)

      2. Sam Sepiol*

        I just figured out roughly what the survey title must be. Jeebers. That can’t be accidental although I hope it’s not completely deliberate. *Shudder*

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Oh wow. It’s one thing to maybe not have heard that a certain hand symbol that, to my knowledge, has always been ‘okay’ in the US (literally and figuratively), but is now associated with white supremacists. It’s another to not be aware that co-opting that original phrase (which was coined in 2013) with a different word in the beginning are *definitely* a dog whistle.

      Also sharing the dislike for poorly worded surveys. Garbage in, garbage out.

    6. tamarack and fireweed*

      I would be very much tempted to write back to someone in charge of the powers that be and point out, politely but firmly, that a diversity survey with a title that makes a mockery of a movement of people of color is pretty much guaranteed to be counter-productive.

    7. Reliquary*

      That’s really, really unacceptable. I hope there is something you can do about this, but yikes, yikes, yikes.

  68. When to fight and when to run*

    I’m a women in engineering and I’m struggling. I can’t seem to advance my career and I am continually told to “be patient” or “focus on design” or “it’s a marathon, not a sprint.” The problem is that male peers, and males that are younger than me seem to be able to advance through better assignments, increasing responsibility, etc. In 6 years with the firm, my first review was “met expectations” but every year since has been “exceeded expectations” or “highly exceeded expectations.” So it’s not a performance issue, I’m pretty sure it’s a cultural issue.

    I have a spreadsheet where I pulled our entire departments’ public info regarding sex, years experience, and job title and it’s pretty clear most of the women are behind the men. But some are part time or have taken off for kids, so it’s tough to compare. I know my salary is almost 20k lower than a male peer with the same title but 2 years more experience but I don’t have any other salary info. So I have some documentation, but I know discrimination is really hard to prove. Also, I am not confident in anything changing since I know I’m not the first woman to experience this.

    My friends want me to consult with a lawyer. I’m concerned for professional repercussions. Should I just cut bait? Talk to a lawyer? Leave, but give HR all of my documentation? I’m at a 4,000-5,000 person firm with real HR. I don’t think it’s the whole company, but I do think it’s an issue within my 60 person department. The most frustrating part is when I came, I was super excited to work under a woman and mom. As it turns out, she’s completely terrible at managing and won’t deal with any difficult issues. I’m not looking for a settlement, I’m just looking to advance my career.

    1. Fikly*

      I can’t advise on the lawyer, but that’s not a cultural issue, that’s a sexism and discrimination issue.

    2. Nicotene*

      Ugh, this is so difficult and hard to prove! I can only say if it was me, I wouldn’t go the legal route personally unless I had a smoking gun – I would probably just job search and not settle for a job that paid less than what my knowledge of my male peers tells me is fair. Your revenge is your current company’s dismay when you announce that you’re leaving, and maybe some carefully worded hints in your exit interview (and do a scorching glassdoor now, so they don’t suspect it was you when you leave in a few months, lol). There are companies out there that pay fairly, unfortunately you just have to work hard to find them :(

    3. Emi.*

      If you think it’s discrimination, you can file a complaint with the EEOC. Then they’re supposed to investigate, which includes a whole discovery process, so you don’t have to wait until you have a smoking gun on your own (and there are filing deadlines; I’m not sure how they apply to ongoing things like pay disparities). I know union reps who strategically file EEOC complaints alongside grievances because they need the information the EEOC can get that management refuses to give them.

      I would see if you can find a lawyer who will do a free or cheap consultation to talk through your options, and *then* decide how you want to proceed.

        1. When to fight and when to run*

          Good to know. If I go that route, I will do my due diligence and research. There’s no union at play here and unfortunately, when I’ve tried to gently bring up issues in the past, when they talk to others (who will openly complain to me) everyone else suddenly is completely happy and they have no idea why anyone would complain. I’ve started telling people they need to find someone else to vent to.

          The culture of fear is real. The disappointing thing is that outside of my department, this doesn’t seem to be the case. But a few levels above, it still it. We’re roughly 30% women at the design level, but senior leadership is 100% old white male.

          “It’s a pipeline issue! There are no women we can promote!” Yeah, because you run them off and prevent them from even getting to middle management.

          1. Support lead*

            Tell me about it. In my IT company there are at least token women at different levels, but though there are more women in the lower ranks than upper ranks people act like there’s nobody they could promote when you address the percentage of women in leadership roles.

      2. Nicotene*

        Do they protect OPs name though? (& how strenuously do they protect it – can she just be anonymous even to EEOC?) I guess I’m paranoid but in my industry this would make me basically unhireable, if it got out that I had triggered an investigation – particularly if it wasn’t found to be justified. Shouldn’t be the case, but that would be my concern.

    4. irene adler*

      IF you talk with a lawyer, what do you expect to happen as a result? You might think about this aspect.

      If you are in USA you might contact the local ABA and ask if you can talk to an attorney (check their website). They usually give a free 30 minute consultation where you could explain your situation and ask the attorney for what you might do- both in the legal realm and in your professional realm. They will be very frank with you regarding the legal aspect.

      Seems to me it’s time to cut bait.

      Before making conclusions regarding being underpaid, get some actual job offers, so that you can be sure of what you should be paid. It may be that you will have to ‘job hop’ a few times to get the bigger salary or to get someone to pay you what you are worth. Some places just don’t understand what it costs them to lose a good employee-so they won’t issue periodic salary increases to assure you are properly paid.

      1. When to fight and when to run*

        I’m considering a 30 min consultation to see what a lawyer would say. But I’m not sure they wouldn’t be biased to try to get work.

        And I have plenty of salary info and I get constant calls from recruiters for similar or one-step-up positions. I’m not necessarily underpaid, but I’m in the middle 50% but with top 10% performance reviews. So I feel that based on productivity, project wins, etc, I should be higher in my band. The tough part is I’m in a niche part of the field. I could easily leave to a more general part of my field, but I’m afraid I’ll get bored. Then again, I’m not exactly being challenged now…

        1. Joielle*

          Personally, I think you should do the consultation. I’m a public sector attorney but have lots of friends in private firm or solo practice, and no attorney wants to take a losing case.

          If the attorney seems interested in the case, you might consider asking whether they’d take it on contingency – i.e. they get paid a percentage of the eventual recovery (so they get paid nothing if you lose, or maybe a relatively small agreed-upon amount). Or some kind of combination of contingency and a discounted hourly rate. That’s not uncommon for employment cases, and if someone does agree to take you on contingency or partial contingency, that says a lot about the strength of your case.

          1. Joielle*

            And also – just because you do a consultation, that doesn’t mean you have to go forward with a whole lawsuit. Maybe you decide to do nothing, maybe your attorney thinks a strongly-worded letter might be enough… there are a lot of options between “don’t even talk to an attorney” and “sue the pants off them.” But you should be armed with as much information as you can get before you decide what to do.

    5. Lora*

      Sadly, I tell you this as a woman in engineering: cut bait and go to a different firm. 6 years is plenty long.

      If you sue, it will be exhausting, expensive, and you may not even get a settlement worth a crap. You will be forever tarnished as That Lawsuit Lady who nobody wants to hire because she sues her employers every time she’s unhappy. It won’t be true, but you’ll be branded as a Troublemaker and have a hard time even getting relatively junior jobs. The only lawsuits I have seen succeed in any meaningful way have always been class actions with many hundreds of people in the class. I have never, EVER, seen an individual lawsuit succeed even with getting a small settlement, let alone one that makes up for lost wages and the future opportunity costs. Unless you have a trust fund and never need to work again really, then I guess go for it.

      You can almost always get a better deal going somewhere else, even if only in money. Once you’ve been with the same company for a few years and established yourself as Not A Job Hopper, there is usually no downside to at least looking for a new gig. For a while when I was dealing with some personal stuff I jumped at any job offering even $5k more net after commute costs, and you know what? It worked out to the equivalent of a 11% per year raise, and ended up catching me up to my male peers a LOT faster than waiting for my kindly corporate masters to getting around to recognizing I was any good. And after that period, it also made clear to good managers that I WOULD bail in a heartbeat if I was unhappy and could get more money elsewhere – so they made a point of the golden handcuffs in CurrentJob. The narrative in your resume is that you are learning new things and exploring and ambitious, and this is rarely problematic.

      You can try to tell HR about your analysis on your exit interview. It might make a difference. Or it might not.

      Everyone wants SOMEONE ELSE to consult with a lawyer. These people rarely have the faintest clue how incredibly expensive, exhausting, and damaging to your physical and mental health it is to wage a lawsuit war, how much it damages your own reputation as well even if everything was found 100% in your favor – there’s a long standing cultural narrative of Both Siderism BS along with institutional sexism that will just make it hard for you in so many ways.

      It sucks, it’s not fair, it’s not just, but the most likely chance of a good outcome for you, either financially or career-wise or stress-wise, is to look elsewhere.

      1. When to fight and when to run*

        Thank you. This was my take. Frankly, I don’t want the fight. And there’s so much potential to hurt myself and bring extra stress to my family without enacting any real change.

        My current plan is to sit on this for a while. I’d like to get through the holidays so I have PTO to take time off and then find a new job in Q1 of 2020.

        1. tangerineRose*

          I agree with you and Lora. There are other companies, and some of them treat women decently.

    6. CheeryO*

      I’m so sorry. This kind of thing is why the retention rate for women in engineering is abysmal. I wish I could tell you that I’d go the legal route and burn the place down, but I would probably just start putting out my feelers instead. Even if you made a case for yourself and ended up being promoted in your current department, would you feel good about it, or would you always wonder if they actually respect you? Would you keep having to fight for recognition, for pay raises, for good projects? Maybe I’m being too pessimistic, but it sounds like a systemic issue that will take a serious culture shift to change.

      Also, ignore everyone who is giving you BS about being patient. You deserve better, and you deserve it now. Things will only get worse if you allow yourself to stagnate.

      1. When to fight and when to run*

        Good points. I remember getting started I thought the women who complained were just complainers. Now I can see it, at all levels and I completely understand why so many women drop out. I no longer judge and part of me gets jealous when I see someone leave the field for something else. I love what I do, I’m just so frustrated.

        Thank you to everyone, this community is awesome.

        1. CheeryO*

          I hope you find something great. I’m in government, so I don’t really have to worry about the salary aspect, but I’ve started to notice the more subtle gender-based inequalities as I get older and more experienced. It makes me sad. I wish there was a better answer.

    7. Forkeater*

      Have you actually asked for a raise/promotion? Bring your data and say based on this I should be making $20k more, what do we need to do to get that going? Data talks. It sucks but I think men are more likely to ask for raises/promotions/key assignments. (Of course I’ve also read women can be penalized for asking… we just can’t win.)

      But – I’ve also never stayed anywhere for six years! I think it’s harder for anyone to get a raise in their current role than to get more money from a new position elsewhere. What motivation does your current employer have to give you more money, when you’re already working for less?

      1. When to fight and when to run*

        Yeah, there’s a long back story there. I have been told by my female manager that I should set my “sights lower and focus on your next promotion” and that “a lot of people retire at that title after good careers.” That may be true, but I’m only 37, so I should hope for only one more promotion in my career?!?

        This spring, I asked for a task lead assignment, as my line manager recommended. The PM chewed me out, questioned my experience, questioned the value I brought to the team. “I’ve never asked this company for anything, you should just do what you’re given!” Keep in mind, I have 12 years experience and have never been a task lead. Most of the men in my group are task leads at 7-8 years and PMs at 12-15. And the “best” part is that in my review next year, I will get a lower rating because one of my goals was to be a task lead, but the PM wouldn’t allow it.

        Typing all of this out makes me feel like a fool. I need to move on.

        1. YetAnotherUsername*

          12 years without being a task lead? Wow. Look for another job. Staying here is seriously damaging your resume.

        2. pcake*

          You’re not a fool – you’re being held back.

          Find a new job.

          Btw, my mother was one of – if not the – first female engineer at a very large aerospace company. She made the same money as the men, but her career was definitely held back – she was on a lower level than men with half her experience and who were many years younger. She got left out of meetings for projects she was involved in. You don’t want to be there, but on the other hand, lawsuits are exhausting, and even if the company gave in without a suit and gave you team lead and a promotion, they aren’t going to feel good about that and it will almost surely impact how you’re thought of and treated going forward.

          Good luck to you, and I hope you find a job where you’re respected for your ability, experience and knowledge.

    8. Close Bracket*

      I’m a woman in engineering, and I brought a gender discrimination suit against a former company. I lost. They can afford a better lawyer than you can, and everything you have said salary wise can explained away by years in the workforce. I suggest you find a new job.

      Btw, in the spirit of “the more you know,” “cutting bait” in the term “fish or cut bait” originally stemmed from cutting up offal to bait your hook with, not from cutting your fishing line.

      1. When to fight and when to run*

        Interesting! So I feel like staying here is closer to the original “cut bait” and the better advice would be it’s time to start fishing. :)

    9. tamarack and fireweed*

      4,000-5,000 people…

      Would it be possible to start putting together a group of like-minded women (and adjacent, including others who may be subject to gender-based discrimination) to start advocating for, say, salary reviews in a more organized manner? By like-minded, I mean those who aren’t on the “you must be patient” bandwagon, but recognize discrimination when they see it? “Committee for equity”, something like this?

      Is there a social Slack channel where the stone of equity and gender could be thrown into the pond?

      (Others have commented on the lawyer/equal opportunities complaint route. I am not advising against it. I’m a) just not experienced enough to know how to go down that path with a good chance of succeeding and b) an activist at heart.)

    10. Woman in EE*

      Run. I’m an engineer in my early 50s, extremely recognized, got leadership opportunities left and right, just because I made a point throughout my career to jump ship every time I realized I was working for a company with the wrong culture.

      It would be nice if we could fight prejudice from within, but the reality is, it rarely works. I have a female friend who is also an engineer and at my age has far less accomplishments because she refuse to leave a company that’s patently discriminatory against women. Think about it this way: which kind of company would you rather help succeed, one that recognizes and rewards results despite gender / race etc., or one that privileges white males? Start looking now, it will probably take you several months until you’ve found an employer worth of your value. And if it happens sooner, you can always try to negotiate a later start time.

      The last time I jumped ship, I lost 90 hours of earned vacation time, but managed to get a few days of vacation before resigning. I do not regret one bit the lost PTO; being with a company that values me as much as my male counterparts more than compensates for it.

    11. Tinuviel*

      Others have responded to other parts but I wanted to chime in on this: ” it’s pretty clear most of the women are behind the men. But some are part time or have taken off for kids, so it’s tough to compare.”
      This tells you that your office values time working more than skills brought to the table or results achieved. Nobody should be held back for having kids–I doubt they’re gone 3-5 years or long enough to have a real gap that would affect their knowledge. And the company should be making it easy to work full time as a mother/parent.
      This is all more information that actually there is a huge gender issue here in your company, and you (and other women) are being systematically held back. You should GTFO and take your talents where they will be respected.

  69. Office Cat*

    I’m collecting unemployment. I have to have 5 work search efforts per week. I know the economy is supposed to be fantastic right now but I am struggling to find enough even slightly relevant jobs to apply to (science/tech/data fields) each week. I’m in a small isolated city, and not really looking to move. I have sent resumes to jobs elsewhere hoping they might consider hiring remote candidates.

    I’ve had to send resumes to jobs that I don’t have the slightest clue about how to do because that’s what’s available that week. Sorry to those hiring managers who see my resume that has nothing to do with your job description!

    1. LCH*

      any reason you can’t apply to non-local jobs even if you wouldn’t move? just to show unemployment?

    2. BlueWolf*

      Commiseration here. My fiance is currently going through the unemployment process also. He still hasn’t gotten a final determination to be eligible to receive funds, so he’s having to do the job search efforts (luckily only 2/week) and file a claim each week even though he’s not getting any money yet. :/ Unfortunately, tech/data jobs or retail (or jobs that require security clearance) are the majority of jobs available in our area (at least on the state unemployment website), but he is not interested or qualified for those, so he’s struggling with similar issues.

    3. Liane*

      I deal with this too, but only 3 job contacts per week. On weeks when I am just desperate to make the minimum contacts, I take advantage of wording loopholes. Example: in my state you’re only asked on your weekly reports, “Did you refuse a job OFFER?” (caps mine), not a job INTERVIEW, I will apply for things/companies that I’m not that interested in*, are out of my field/local area, or that I am only minimally qualified for (to up the chance I’ll be passed over for someone better qualified). The state UI office is also liberal in what it defines as a “job contact,” as its employees will inform you**. Going into a store, asking if they have openings and being referred to the website counts as one & actually applying on the ATS is another. Finally, this state doesn’t define job contacts as “ones you initiated.” So if a company does get back to me that goes on the current week’s list–whether it’s a rejection, interview invite, or just a “We have new openings, take a look” email.

      Another odd thing is that in this state, contacts are Honor System for the first few weeks, and only after do you have to document–but I did so from Day One. (Alas, while claims/weekly check-in can be done online, this has to be on the Ancient Official Paper Form. So I am just going to print out my list and paste it on the page, and they better be happy.)

      *but not companies I have *serious* objections to, for good reasons, like they treat people badly, they got into hot legal water, etc
      **I really do like the staff I’ve interacted with, they’re good

      1. Amethyst*

        I’m from a state in the southern part of the Northeast US & our process for UI is the same as yours. I was unemployed until the first third of this year & underemployed until July 1st. What I did with their ancient paper form was convert it into an Excel spreadsheet & add a couple of my own columns to it. This was how mine looked: Date applied, name/address of employer, position type, contact name/info, where I found the job/how I applied, & heard back?. I set it to landscape view & made sure everything was all on one page so in the event I needed to print it out for the state, it’d be there & readable (as opposed to their mess of a format). I didn’t have to, but it was nice to have it all there on a screen to update as needed.

        Just a thought for everyone looking for jobs. :)

    4. tamarack and fireweed*

      Best of luck! (Have you considered full-time remote work? I have a running search on Stackoverflow and a few other places, and even though I am not currently pushing that way, I get opportunities regularly.)

    5. Patty Mayonnaise*

      In my state, there are a bunch of different activities that count as work search efforts – checking a job listings website, getting in touch with former bosses and coworkers to let them know you are looking, going to a networking event, etc. Any chance those will count for you too? I hope a great opportunity comes your way soon!

  70. Rhymetime*

    I work in a nonprofit organization in a fundraising role with great colleagues. I get along well with them.

    One of the people whose work I support seems to have an issue trusting my guidance about how to proceed in relationships with donors, which is not the case with any of other other leaders I work with. We both report to the same manager, and I’m planning to sit down with him and talk about how we can best work together. I will come into this conversation in a non-confrontational way and take responsibility for my half of the dynamic in the conversation. I’m confident we can work this out.

    My question is how to let colleagues know you want to talk about something difficult? I would like to give advance notice so someone doesn’t feel ambushed by just popping into their office. At the same time, I don’t want to elevate their anxiety by putting something on their calendar that might sound more serious than it actually is. How can I best set up this kind of a conversation in advance?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It sounds like your options are:

      a) Don’t give them a heads-up. It might not be as big of a deal as you think and you may make it feel more dramatic if you over-think how to setup the meeting.

      b) Give them the heads up in person, so you can use a warm tone. “Hey, I wanted to sit down with you to talk about ____. I’ll take a look at your calendar and send an invite.”

  71. Eponymous*

    I’ve now completed five weeks of the part-time work, part-time school schedule, and it’s working out well except for one minor thing: I keep forgetting to put certain things in either my work bag or my school bag.

    Since I’m cycling to the university and only on campus for a few hours, I haven’t wanted to carry my usual messenger bag with me because it’s heavy: it contains a lot of stuff that I might need for long work days (e.g., electronics, toiletries) and/or project site visits (e.g., flashlight, earplugs). My school backpack really only needs my notebooks, calculators, and some pens along with my bike lock. However, I usually stash my purse in my messenger bag and more than a few times now I’ve forgotten to move it to my backpack which means I’m without state ID, school ID, money (cards, cash), and insurance (health, AAA); it’s fine if I’m on campus for an hour but potentially disastrous if I ever forget to move my purse from my backpack to my messenger bag. I’m also forgetting to move my planner and pens (I color-code everything) back-and-forth, but that’s more of an annoyance than potentially problem-causing.

    To make things more complicated, I generally use my backpack for visiting my boyfriend on weekends which means dumping out all of the school supplies and replacing them with clothes, toiletries, and whatever projects (e.g., embroidery thread, seed packets) I’m working on that weekend. I’ve already forgotten once to put my bike lock back in to my backpack on a Monday and had to turn around to get it, and I can only imagine what happens the day I reach in for a calculator and it’s tangled in an unmentionable article of clothing.

    Usually I’d get duplicate items and leave them in both places (e.g., I have bottles of hand lotion everywhere), but you can’t do that with IDs, credit cards, and planners. Are there any slightly more foolproof ways of remembering to move these things back and forth?

    1. Amber Rose*

      If it were me, I’d make a small checklist of the vital stuff (like your ID and bike lock), laminate it, and do a quick run through of it each morning with a dry erase marker (then wipe it clean later.)

      1. Eponymous*

        I usually do the keys-phone-wallet check, but sometimes at 7:30AM when I should have left for class 5 minutes ago, “wallet” kind of falls by the wayside. But I like the checklist idea, I’d just tape it to my apartment doors instead.

        To make things more interesting, I think I’m going to get some nice panniers/saddlebags so I’m not carrying the weight of my school bag and bike lock on my back any more, so my center of gravity will be lower for cycling through the snow. Then I won’t have the unmentionables-on-my-calculator issue, but I’ll have yet another bag to transfer things between.

        I should probably just get a larger “purse” and put my wallet, planner, and pens in that and just have the one object to worry about instead of each piece separately…

        1. zora*

          Oh the keeping everything in one bag idea is super good. I am a fan of big zip pouches, for keeping organized in my bags. So maybe a big zip pouch that fits all the most important items and you just have to grab that every day?

          1. Bird Person*

            +1 for zip pouches! I’ve started following the KonMari method of emptying my bag every time I come home (tote for work, date night purse, etc.) which has actually been great since everything gets corralled in a small tray on my dresser. It’s pretty easy to see if anything on the tray needs to leave the house with me. Smaller things (mirror, bobby pins) live in a pouch that’s pretty easy to transfer when needed.

            1. valentine*

              Yes, move the pouch from bag to bag. Take it out and leave it by the door every day.

              A bike basket might help. I’d just carry everything all the time.

              And why the single bag for everything? Three bags and a pouch that goes into each would reduce mix-ups, especially if you can leave some stock clothing at your BF’s place or have stacks ready to go that you can put right into the designated bag when you empty it. Next time, you need only grab the bag and put the pouch in.

          2. JaneB*

            Me too – I have a set of different coloured pouches and it’s really helped me remember to move stuff – one pouch is do much easier to remember/move than multiple items. ..

        2. Reba*

          Switching bags is dangerous! I struggle with this too. I was going to suggest both these things! The cycle gear and the big pouch/purse for essentials — rather than getting the phone out of this pocket, and the metro card out of that other pocket, it’s one item to remember.

          I have an Ortlieb bag similar to the current Downtown Two — looks a little more like a briefcase or messenger bag than a pannier, and easier to keep stuff organized inside. Plenty of space for computer, jacket, lunch, book or two.

      2. Kes*

        Or just stick a reminder sign on the door so you see it when leaving and are reminded to check that you have the key things

    2. zora*

      I have a specific location by my door where all of my bags and items live. And, I also do prepping at night for the next day.
      So basically, every time I come in the house, the purse would come out of the bag it’s in, and get put where i can see it.
      Then next time I’m leaving, the purse would be right there, and i would remember to put it into the current bag.
      Can you put some hooks on the wall in an obvious place where you can hang your purse and your backpack every time you come in, so that it’s right in your face when you are leaving?

      As for the weekend issue, I would get another backpack in a different color and just make that my weekend bag, so it can stay packed with certain things and I don’t have to worry about mixups.

      1. SarahKay*

        Seconding zora’s suggestion for a different backpack used for the weekend.
        For a while I was babysitting my god-son overnight every one-two weeks. I got fed up of sorting out a toiletries bag every time so just created a whole second set of basic make-up, shower and hair stuff that lived in it’s own toiletries bag in my overnight bag, along with a pair of slippers (I get very cold feet) and a travel-set of hair straighteners. That way, all I had to do was shove in my clothes for the next day, plus a nightshirt, and I was good to go.
        Plus, bonus, when going away on holiday I can grab the same toiletries bag and know it’s got everything I need in it.

      2. Eponymous*

        I’d like to be able to put everything in one place, but the difficulty is I use both doors of my apartment –bike out front because it can’t fit down the back stairs and car out back because I have a parking space there– and the meeting point in the middle is my “home office and schoolwork space” that I am trying to keep as uncluttered as possible so I can focus on work/school. Definitely going to get a separate personal bag; at least I’ve never forgotten to bring my wallet/purse out for the weekend!

        2. zora*

          Yikes, yeah the two doors thing would totally screw me up!
          I agree with Bird Person, though, I would still find a central location where you always put your bags when you come back and get them when you leave. A spot in your closet or in the hallway? Use hooks on the wall and a small table to keep it all in one place without being too cluttered. Having one space for everything is really key for me, if I don’t see it in front of me, I forget to pack it.

          I guess the alternative would be trying to cultivate the habit of prepping when you get home each time? Like, you get home from school, if your next trip out is to work, your first task when you come in is to head to the back door and pack the bags correctly for work. So you can’t sit down and relax until your bag is packed for the next time you have to leave. That would be super hard for me to convince myself to do, but once it’s a habit, it should become pretty automatic.

          1. Eponymous*

            Prepping would be the smartest option, I’m sure, but I’m still getting into the work-at-work, work-at-home, go-to-class, do-schoolwork-at-home groove, and some days I’m packed and ready to go the night before and other days I have to finish the last section of an assignment before heading off to class… hard to form habits when my schedule is all over the place!

    3. CheeryO*

      Oh, I feel this. The only thing that consistently works for me is to have my wallet live on the side table next to the door with my keys. Whatever you do, just do it the same way every time so it becomes a habit. Muscle memory definitely helps when your actual memory hasn’t had its coffee yet!

    4. Joielle*

      I have this exact problem and it’s only been solved by having one main bag for everything, with a smaller zippered pouch that goes inside with things I sometimes need to transfer to my gym bag. It sounds like that’s basically what you’re doing with the purse, you just need a better way of remembering to put it where it needs to go for that day.

      Personally, I have a phone reminder set to trigger every time I arrive home that says CAR KEYS, because if I have the car keys in my purse when I get home, I absolutely must remember to take them out, or my husband can’t drive to work the next day.

      Can you get a separate bag to use for overnight visits, and set a reminder for when you get home (or whenever you’d need to switch) that says PURSE so you remember to put it where it needs to go?

      1. zora*

        oh yeah, phone reminders!! Can’t believe I forgot that, but yes, I set phone alarms to remind me to do things. Like, when I had a Wednesday morning yoga class, I had an alarm every Tuesday night reminding me to pack for yoga. Highly recommend those!

    5. LilySparrow*

      Are you switching back & forth during the day? Because the best routine I found was to pack my bag the night before and leave it in a designated spot.

      I also would probably separate the weekend bag from the weekday bag, and just pop the whole school bag into the work bag, if that’s feasible.

    6. nym*

      This may be too complicated, but I would go with a system of four bags:
      1. stuff I only need for work in one bag, e.g. flashlight
      2. Stuff I only need for school in one bag, e.g. calculator and bike lock
      3. stuff I only need for weekends in one bag, e.g. unmentionables
      4. stuff I always need, e.g. planner, phone, and ID

      and then I’m always grabbing two on the way out the door: work/always, school/always, weekend/always. If you make your “always” bag smaller than the other three, you just throw it on top of whatever else is in them and you’re still only carrying one bag. It might mean a bigger “always bag” than your purse, so that your planner fits in it.

  72. Glacier*

    I’m a brand new manager, and have a direct report who was in a role *much* different than the one they’re in now (internal transfer, we were both surprised). They tend to use run-on sentences in their writing, and for some reason I’m having the hardest time figuring out whether and how to bring it up.

    On the one hand, it does make it more difficult to read their emails, but on the other hand, it feels nit picky. If I do bring it up, what should I say?

    Thanks!

    1. 1234*

      I don’t think this is nitpicky. Are they using these run-on sentences with clients/external communication as well? If so, you can have him/her DRAFT an email first and have you look it over. You can provide feedback in that manner.

      When I first wrote an email to a client at OldJob, I was asked to do the same thing by my manager and almost everything was red-lined except for “Hi Jane,”

      This helped me improve my email communications over time. At CurrentJob, my boss asks me to look over her communication to make sure that it makes sense!

  73. yams*

    Goodness. I had the worst meeting with a vendor (he’s corporate, so I can’t do anything about it). It was a two hour (gross) waste of time. He opened the meeting with a 30 minute diatribe on how important the relationship between our companies is and how he wants to work closer together (I tried to have a meeting about it two months ago but he refused since he had more important things to do), so we were not off to a good start. Then he proceeded to condescendingly explain to me the project I was presenting, he refused to look at the instructions and specs I had provided via email and wanted me to dictate everything to him which I refused. He spent the rest of the meeting providing condescending spelling and math lessons. I was so annoyed by his obnoxious behavior!
    Gah, I’m still annoyed.

  74. Pumpkin Spite Latte*

    I have a professional norms question! I got engaged this summer (yay!). I shared the news with everyone at work and was enthusiastically congratulated and celebrated.

    My question is about telling people outside of my organization. As part of my job, I maintain relationships with a number of people, and meet them face to face once a year, at a big industry conference that is coming up. Aside from this conference, we may have a phone call once or twice a year, and email anywhere from once a month to several times a week. In the past, I haven’t shared too many personal details and usually keep it to small talk. Some of these people talk about their kids, families, home renovations, etc. Since I’m a younger, newer to my career woman, and often meeting with older, more established men, I haven’t wanted to highlight that difference by sharing stories of like, moving in with a new group of roommates. For that reason, I’ve kept it pretty surface-level so far.

    What I want to know is: is it normal to share engagement news in a work context like this? I think my judgment is clouded here. I’m engaged to a woman, and I feel extremely supported being out at my company. But, I think I’m hesitating because sharing my engagement will also include coming out to these people. I can’t tell if my uncertainty is based in preparing myself to field some surprised looks and awkward questions. 

    So what I want to know is, gender aside, do you tell work contacts you see 1x a year and maintain a friendly rapport with that you’re engaged? Or is that too much information, regardless of sexual orientation? Do you wait until after the wedding and say, “I got married”? I don’t want to be closeted at work, and am not trying to hide this about myself, but I can’t tell what the normal thing is!

    1. Jamie*

      Tbh if anyone I knew casually in a work context contacted me specifically to tell me they were engaged or married I’d find it odd. I wouldn’t know why they felt the need to share with me.

      But you say you small talk with these people when you do talk so bringing up your wife in conversations where it’s natural and you want to is completely normal.

      I could be cynical but every time I get an engagement or wedding announcement from someone with whom I don’t have a close personal relationship I think it’s a play for a gift. If it were work related I wouldn’t know what to think.

      2. Pumpkin Spite Latte*

        Thanks, I totally agree! To clarify I was imagining bringing it up during conversations at this conference where I’ll see them, not sending a specific announcement.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I wouldn’t bring it up, but I hope you feel free to talk about it as it comes up naturally. Don’t try to shoehorn it in to small talk (I say this from experience! I wanted to talk about it all the time, and I brought it up on the smallest pretense… don’t be like me).

          I’d say that a general “So, how’ve you been since the last conference?” doesn’t merit a discussion of your upcoming wedding, but “What did you do this weekend?” (when the answer is “tried on wedding dresses) is fair game.

    2. iglwif*

      I think I would like … let it come up naturally, if it does? Like if someone asks what you’re up to, you can mention you’re planning your wedding, or mention where you’re thinking of going on your honeymoon, or that kind of thing?

      And of course if you’re going to be off for a week or two for wedding/honeymoon purposes, or if you’re changing names or hyphenating, you can tell people that way at that point.

      Once you’re actually married you can be like “my wife and I …” :)

      Irrespective of gender, orientation, etc., I’m not sure there’s a non-awkward way to casually announce an engagement out of the blue to work-adjacent people you rarely interact with.

      Also CONGRATULATIONS YAY!

    3. CheeryO*

      I think it’s totally normal and expected to share that kind of thing with long-term work contacts! You don’t need to force it, but I’d definitely mention it if you have a natural opening. It’s one of those things that helps put a personality to a name and face, which is never a bad thing.

      And honestly, you probably don’t even need to out yourself if you don’t want to. Most people aren’t going to ask you probing questions – you can say that you got engaged, they’ll say, “Oh, that’s fantastic, congratulations!” and you might make some small talk about venues or whatever. If you refer to your fiancee, they won’t be able to hear the extra “e.” ;) But also, it’s 2019, so even if people are initially surprised to hear that you’re engaged to a woman, I highly doubt anyone will make it weird (but also, that’s easy to say as a hetero person, so it’s really your call).

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      If it came up I would tell. Like if they said “so what’s going on with you” at a Conference I might say “oh I got engaged this year, so planning a wedding at the moment” or similar. But I wouldnt just bring it up out of the blue, especially over the phone. I can’t imagine my relationship status coming up during a business phone call with someone I only see once a year. At a conference it’s different because there is usually a social element and a certain amount of personal sharing. So it probably will come up at the conference.

      It doesn’t havr to be a big announcement though. You can just drop it in to the conversation. Like if you are talking about weekend plans you can just say I’m doing x with my fiancée.

      There’s also no need to bring up your finacee’s gender if you don’t feel comfortable doing that. But if you do want to bring it up, it doesn’t need to be a big announcement. You can just drop it in. Like “I’m going to the farmers market with my fiancee Karen this weekend. We love fancy cheese!”

      If you are worried about coming out face to face and would rather do it in advance of the conference you could try mentioning it during the end of a business phone call. Ask them about their weekend plans and assuming they reciprocate drop in.” my fiancee Karen and I are checking out wedding venues this weekend.” doing it at the end of the call means if it feels awkward you can just make an excuse and end the call.

      Congrats and good luck with the wedding.

    5. Ranon*

      If it comes up naturally I don’t think it’s odd, but I wouldn’t go out of your way to share the news.

      Naturally to me is like what happened at a meeting recently at my job where we’re designing an events center that will host weddings and one of the consultants mentioned she’s been looking at wedding venues because she’s getting married and been thinking about our design in terms of what she’s been seeing while looking for venues for her wedding- like, very obvious opening. Or “any plans for the holidays” “oh, I’m actually getting married”. Openings you can drive a truck through.

  75. Gina*

    A colleague keeps pronouncing my name “Gina” the way you pronounce it in a certain word that begins with “va-.” I laughed awkwardly the first time, because I was so caught off guard, but let’s just say I don’t care for it. I know he’s only joking with me, and we have a good relationship otherwise. I don’t want to make things awkward, but – there are many buts, one of which is that I was bullied pretty badly in school and still no one referred to me that way. I don’t want to hear it now that I’m an adult.

    1. another Gina*

      These 7th grade boy types always think they’re so clever. Sorry that’s happening to you. :/

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Agree. Don’t respond/look up until he says it correctly. “Oh, were you talking to me?”

        1. Gina*

          I like this idea! If I can’t get the courage for the lovely scripts below, I think I can manage that. Thanks both!

      2. The New Wanderer*

        That’s so uncool of him. I’d just say “It’s Gee-na” with a flat tone, and if he did it again I’d ignore or walk away. He wants to stay on good terms, he’ll figure it out pretty quickly that your name is off-limits as joke material. If not, at least you aren’t putting up with it.

    2. Reba*

      In the words of Captain Awkward, return the awkwardness to sender! Remember that if you speak up on this, and he gets upset, HE is the one who created the awkward situation by being a terrible boor, not you!
      You can say, “hey, I know you’re just joking with me, but would you please stop pronouncing my name that way? it bothers me, for various reasons, and I’d prefer if you say my name the correct way. Thanks for understanding!” It doesn’t have to be like a big conflict.

      Also this guy is a turd.

      1. Anongradstudent*

        Love the script above! My only suggestion would be to replace “would you please stop” with “I need you to stop.”

    3. VonSchmidt*

      Just cheerfully say, oh just call me Geena, thanks! Repeat as necessary. I had a coworker calle me ‘dear’ which just bothered me to no end, I”m female, he is older male. It only took about 3 reminders for it to stop.

      1. Gina*

        Oh, that’s yucky! I’m glad you found a way to get him to cut it out – thanks for the tip!

    4. Drag0nfly*

      Might he be Canadian? They have a city named “Regina” and that’s how they pronounce it. My mother is also named Regina, and this is THE clue that the person she’s talking to is Canadian. Well, other than the “oot and aboot.” A lot of Canadians commute to Detroit, where she works, so she runs into this pronunciation with them. You could hear them say it this way at the 1:12 mark in their tourist ad for Regina, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VTdvubRIWU

      So, for a graceful approach, try the Canadian angle first. Even if he isn’t Canadian, this could get the point across. If he persists, then you know he’s really a douche, and can escalate accordingly.

      1. Gina*

        Unfortunately, no, he’s not Canadian – I would have assumed something similar if he had called me that from the start, but he uses the American pronunciation unless he’s joking with me.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I think you’re fine keeping it light, the first time (hopefully the only time.)

      Just pull a wry face and say something like, “Yeah, not loving that. Just Geena, okay?”

      Save the serious talk kind of scripts if he keeps doing it. If he’s a nice person, you’ll only have to say it once.

  76. The Goat Gruff*

    I accepted a job offer but there is no start date in sight and my severance from my last position is running dry. I would need to borrow from my savings in order to keep waiting, which is fortunately an option for me, but not a long-term solution as my start date gets deferred by three-week increments again and again. I am considering my options – getting a temp role until I can start, simply resuming my job search, pressing my recruiter for a more realistic timeline (which I’m not sure is possible; I don’t know if they are speaking out of ignorance or dishonesty when they put me off) – but am feeling paralyzed and unsure of the most professional course. Any guidance would be appreciated.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Keep job searching, and a temp position is a good idea too. They’ve lost the high ground here.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      How many times have they deferred? Three weeks is a long time to wait once, much less a few times. Definitely resume your job search because this could go on indefinitely or result in no actual job (depending on what’s causing the hold up). Depending on your situation, also look into a temp job as job searching can sometimes take a while and you don’t get paid on Day 1 anyway.

      You aren’t breaking any contracts, you don’t actually work for them right now, so don’t feel responsible to keep waiting on them.

  77. Meg Murry*

    Suggestion for treats from a vendor besides doughnuts and pizza?

    We have a lot of vendors that like to bring us doughnuts, bagels, pizza, etc. Which is really nice, but several of my coworkers have recently been diagnosed as diabetic. I’m not trying to food police them, they have specifically commented that they feel more frustrated than appreciated by being given “thank you” gifts that they can’t eat, or that make them feel tempted to eat even though they then feel sick and/or guilty.

    I know the vendors don’t have a huge budget for things like these doughnuts, but is there something else I can suggest next time one of them emails me to let me know they will be in our area and can they drop by with some doughnuts (or pizza, or whatever)?

    4. Interviewer*

      I tell vendors that it’s not necessary to bring anything at all, that we have plenty of people watching what they eat.

    6. LimeRoos*

      We just got rewarded with veggie trays, fruit trays, and a Costco cake – so a nice variety but not super expensive. The veggie & fruit trays were actually mostly gone by lunchtime – definitely a bigger hit with people than I expected.

    7. Can't Sit Still*

      Hint Fizz FTW! It’s tasty and I love it, but I would never buy it with my own money. Veggie tray with pita and hummus?

    8. pony tailed wonder*

      I would love it if they brought Purell and Kleenex for the office but I think I am influenced by the fact that I am under the weather. They can slap a sticker with their contact information on the bottles and boxes.

    9. Ranon*

      One of our product reps brought apples, single serving peanut butter tubs and tea last winter when we were in the onslaught of winter holiday goodies and it was definitely appreciated. We also get big bags of pre-cracked in shell pecans which are pretty great.

      In my neck of the woods breakfast tacos are a common default but that’s pretty regional, I think.

    10. Fikly*

      Actual diabetic here, and the majority of these suggestions have way too many carbs for me to eat safely. I’d start by asking the diabetics in your office what is safe for them to eat, and then go from there.

  78. JustVenting*

    So I don’t know if I need any advice on this, but I just need to put in into the universe.

    I started a new job about 4 months ago, in the same field that I’ve been working in for awhile. It’s a promotion, (llama wrangler >> llama wrangler manager >> Alpaca wrangler manager). I really thought I would love the job, it was a side step in what I’d been doing previously but in a new direction with new challenges.

    BUT. In the 4 months I’ve been here I had two staff members quit dramatically, one staff member show up to work intoxicated and get terminated, two staff members repeatedly play super fast and lose with attendance, one staff member be put on a pip because they didn’t do data entry for a month and a half. I think I’m going to have to terminate one of the issues-with-attendance employees. (Which means I’m going to have almost a completely new staff force within 5-6 months of starting.)

    I hate coming into a workplace and acting like a cleaner. My supervisor(s) and peers keep telling me that none of this is anything I’m doing, and that the team members that are thriving are doing so because of my direction. And my new hires are doing pretty great. But coming into a workplace where no one enforced rules, and suddenly enforcing bare minimums with huge push-back sucks. Especially in a pretty feel-good field. I’m typically pretty relaxed and let my employees run free as long as they’re meeting metrics and those llamas and alpacas are getting groomed. But now I have to be Angry Dad Who Swears He’s Going to Turn This Car Around 24×7. I’m not a fan!

    1. Mr. Shark*

      Well, that does suck. But if you are being fair to everyone and not micromanaging or putting in new draconian rules that cause issues, then it really isn’t something that you’re doing, just the way the staff members were before you got there.

      Something like playing loose with attendance isn’t a thing that you could have caused, and you can only warn/enforce rules so much if they are not responding. Same with the PIP for not doing data entry (their job) for that long of a time.

      If the staff ends up turning over, and that means you have new people in place to make your team run smoothly, then that’s what has to happen.

  79. zora*

    JOB SEARCH ACCOUNTABILITY THREAD

    What’s your update, because you definitely did something this week to move your job search forward, right??!! Post it here!

    1. wingmaster*

      I had a great phone interview yesterday. Originally I applied for a senior level position (Job A). During my interview, the recruiter mentioned because I was short of 1 year of experience, she asked me if I wanted to be considered for the associate level (Job B). I said yes but only applied because the job duties of Job A match word by word with what I am currently doing…as an entry level employee. Hopefully I hear back today to see if they want to move me forward in the process.

      I have another digital interview that I would like to complete today. I can complete it whenever since it’s on my own time.

      How’s your search zora?

      1. zora*

        Good job, keep it up!

        I managed to fail my own accountability system! I made it through another week without doing anything (FACEPALM)

        BUT, I am off work today (took a PTO day since my boss is out too) and job search is my plan for today. I’m planning to write a first draft of my ‘career narrative’ that I want to help narrow down for myself what I want to look for. And I’m going to at least dust off resumes coverletters and my job search spreadsheet, and maybe start some updating if I can keep up the momentum.

    2. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      Found three new jobs I want to apply for! Tonight I’m planning on sending in at least two applications, then rewarding myself with a big glass of wine because it has been A Week.

      1. zora*

        Oh yeah, my therapist reminded me to strategically deploy rewards!!
        It’s been a week for me too, so enjoy that wine!!

    3. Elenna*

      Yeah, basically all I did was find a couple jobs to apply to. Which feels like Not Enough because I’m currently unemployed, but oh well.

    4. Job searcher from earlier in this page*

      I had a good onsite interview with one company and a good phone interview with another. I just got scheduled for an onsite interview with that second company for next week!!

      I’ve also started planning out what I need to wrap up to successfully leave my current job.

    5. Hamlindigoblue*

      I casually applied for a position on Tuesday that looked interesting. On Wednsday, my manager threw out entire team under the bus, backed the bus up, and ran over us again. So, I made my resume public on Indeed and set my LinkedIn as open to new opportunities. A recruiter called me yesterday almost immediately with a fantastic opportunity with almost a 30% pay increase, so we’ll see how that plays out. I am cautiously optimistic that something good will happen soon because my fortune cookie from lunch yesterday said so.

  80. Sharkie*

    Hi Guys,
    Anyone have any tips after working at a computer all day while recovering from a concussion? I am medically cleared to work but I am so wiped out and lose focus during the day.
    Thanks

    1. wingmaster*

      My co-worker is recovering from a car accident. She’s takes breaks every hour or so just stepping away from the computer and take small walks. She is also allowed to work 4-6 hour instead of the 8. Maybe your supervisor can allow you to do the same?

      1. Sharkie*

        No dice. I am expected to work full days and have the same output. I was allowed to leave 30 minutes early on Monday but that’s about it. Thank god I have my own office so I can sit in the dark.

        1. Sharkie*

          Let me expand- our office currently has a lot of people out and I have to provide coverage. There is no one else to cover.

          1. zora*

            Yikes, I think that having to sit in one place for 8 hours is not compatible with recovering from a concussion.

            Do you have to actually be actively working the whole time? Can you take regular breaks to close your eyes and put your head on your desk for 30 minutes, unless you get a call or something? I think breaks from looking at screens is the most crucial.

            If not, I think I would go back to my doctor and ask for a note with some kind of parameters for recovery. Like “Sharkie can work 8 hours, but needs a break every 2 hours and no more than 4 hours of computer work” or somethign like that. You might need to get pushy to advocate for yourself, but head injuries are no joke, please don’t just push through and potentially set back your recovery!

            1. valentine*

              There is no one else to cover.
              This shouldn’t be your problem. I agree with Zora about new doctor’s orders because this may be increasing your recovery period.

    2. CheeryO*

      I have a coworker who has post-concussion syndrome, and she’s gotten some accomodations for it. She has a special monitor that’s tinted purple and only emits a little bit of light. She also has some sort of device that reads her screen out loud for her so she can rest her eyes some of the time. More informally, she’s allowed to sit in a dark conference room for a few minutes here and there if she needs it, and I believe she’s allowed to take extra time off unpaid since she’s constantly out of sick leave.

      Concussions can be serious – hers is basically being treated as a TBI. Try to push for what you need to avoid prolonging and already-long recovery period.

    4. Fikly*

      I am recovering from a concussion, and my neurologist has told me that if I’m experiencing symptoms like you’re experiencing, I’m no longer medically cleared. I suggest another talk with your doctor.

  81. LCH*

    thoughts on if employees still need to notify their supervisor they will be out sick if the supervisor is on vacation.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Nope. There should be a back up person to notify. I often copy my supervisor on the email I send just so she has it later and it’s not some kind of shock that I wasn’t around on a day.

    3. Hamlindigoblue*

      I’d email my manager as a courtesy and for transparency, then also loop my team in.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I’d do what was suggested here – email your boss’s boss and copy your direct manager so she knows you were out sick when she returns.

  82. EastvsWest*

    I am fortunate enough to have a second interview for a job, the thing is I have no idea if the salary is realistic. I’m on the east coast, the job is on the west coast.

    I have spent time on the west coast, but as a kid, so I know the cost of living is radically different but don’t know actual numbers.

    I have the upper limit for the position, low 70ks, but am having a hard time figuring out if that’s within what I need for my next job to get a little above living paycheck to paycheck. I currently make 40k in a decent sized metro east coast city where rent is almost more than 40% of my paycheck.

    I’ve tried plugging info into online budget calculators but haven’t really trusted any of them, if anyone has any recommendations for something like that.

    My hope is my next position will net me minimum 50k, which at my current standards would allow me to pay all my bills and start saving a little.

    Does anyone know what low 70ks translates to, to east coast standards? The position is in southern California but not a coastline city, so while rent is still expensive as $#@!, I could get something under 2k/month.

    1. Sharkie*

      Where on the east coast are you? If you are in Boston – NYC- DC the cost of living might be the same or close to if you are going to Cali.

    2. zora*

      in a noncoastal city I think $70 is a reasonable place to start.
      Im at $60 in the bay area and I’m finally beyond paycheck to paycheck and am finally saving every month, but I do still live pretty frugally. (small apartment, mostly cook at home, pack lunches, keep my phone for 3 years+)

      I would make sure you have some kind of raise guaranteed, because $70 isn’t great forever, I would want to be somewhere that is actually giving raises every year. And maybe have opportunities for promotion?
      But I personally would be happy with starting at $70, and would be living pretty comfortably and still saving.

    3. Ree*

      Born and raised Southern Californian – because it’s so densely populated, there are always less expensive pockets next to every major city, rent prices ultimately come down to how long you want your commute to be.
      Also, something most people don’t factor in is that the weather in SoCal is a serious cost saver – both in heating/cooling costs as well as clothing(no real need for snow boots, heavy jackets, All-Wheel Drive or snow tires)
      I think 70k is reasonable for a single person in SoCal and would say that 70k would be comparable to east coast, if not a bit better.

  83. ElizabethJane*

    How do you explain being “in a funk” to your manager? A few weeks ago I just was not doing my best. Might have been a little bit of burnout from working longer than typical hours, could have been that my toddler has decided sleeping is optional, could have been crappy customers and stressful projects. I dunno.

    But my feedback from my manager (whom I generally really like) was that I “seemed to be lacking enthusiasm” and I was “really pushing the boundaries on deadlines”. To be clear on the deadlines, I usually say “I’ll have this to you by close of business on Wednesday” if chances are good I can have it by close on Tuesday or early on Wednesday. I work in an environment where ad hoc firedrill type requests are close to 60% of the work so I like to pad expectations to allow for these. If someone responds with “Wednesday won’t work, can you do Tuesday” then we talk about it and I get it done. ANYWAY. My boss knows about this practice and supports it. But when I was in my funk I pretty much turned in all projects at the deadline and none of them early. Nothing was late though.

    But now he’s “concerned” about what caused that, he’s glad I appear to be back to normal, and he wants to know what steps to take to stop it from happening again. I don’t get the impression that he’s criticizing me harshly, he does seem genuine in his concern. This is also the first time I’ve had this type of feedback in the 22 months I’ve worked here.

    And I have no answer for him other than “Sometimes humans have weird moods”, which is apparently an answer he can’t understand.

    1. zora*

      If you’ve already explained it was just a personal thing, and he still isn’t taking that as an answer, I guess I would use some strategic questions to push back a little. Like, “I guess I’m not clear on the business impacts of that time, what exactly was the problem you need me to fix?” Because it sounds like he isn’t clear himself on the problem. Like, he doesn’t want you to be tired ever again? That’s not how life works. But you didn’t miss any deadlines, you didn’t yell at anyone, there were no actual business impacts. So, I’d use questions to help him come to that conclusion himself. And then try to gently say, “I can’t promise that I won’t be quiet or tired ever again, but I can promise it won’t impact the actual final product of the work, and that i will meet deadlines, even if I’m tired or otherwise not in a great mood.”

      1. ElizabethJane*

        This is good. Definitely haven’t tried framing it like that. Because yeah, sometimes I’m in a crappy mood. I mean, I try really hard to separate business and personal but I’m not a robot and sometimes it doesn’t work.

        1. zora*

          I mean, yeah, that’s how humans work!
          I kind of see it as a yellow flag whenever a boss talks about “lacking enthusiasm”. I mean, yeah, having a positive attitude is great, but like, you’re paying me for my work, not for my enthusiasm. And am I really supposed to be enthusiastic about everything? I’m sorry, but no, I’m never going to be enthusiastic about filling out expense reports in our crappy software program.

          And bosses that talk about enthusiasm too much are often not thinking critically about what is really a business need and what is their own personality and wanting to see everyone ‘be’ a certain way. So, it’s definitely something to push back on a bit, and try to help him see the difference between those two things.

          1. ElizabethJane*

            Oh for sure. To clarify I think it was more of “You’re usually pretty cheerful and enthusiastic and you seem down and I’m concerned about you as a person” not “ENTHUSIASM! YAY!” but also it’s definitely good to have a better idea how to approach this conversation.

  84. Fabulous*

    I asked this last week but didn’t get many responses related to what I was looking for… What tactics do you use to improve your emotional intelligence (EQ ) in the workplace?

    And by EQ I guess I really mean professional presence – such as overcoming imposter syndrome, having the confidence to present yourself as an expert in your field, making business decisions, etc.

    Any online resources you suggest, webinars/YouTubes, etc.?

    1. Tinuviel*

      I’m not sure any of these are considered “emotional intelligence”, or even the same thing. IMO EQ is for how you read others, and you’re looking for how you read to others. It sounds like the first thing you need to do is change your key words to things like “how to increase your self-confidence at work” or “how to be perceived as confident at work”.

      1. Fabulous*

        Thanks, my boss had asked me to work on increasing my professions presence this year but was using the term interchangeably with EQ. I was thinking they were separate ideas but they did seem to go hand-in-hand regardless.

  85. Koala dreams*

    Several letters this week has touched on sick leave. It made me think of all the annoying myths about sick leave that are flouting around out there. The most annoying thing for me is the idea that being sick means resting in bed and don’t go out. Actually physical exercise and daily activities are good for many illnesses. If your illness doesn’t prevent you from it, it can be good to take a walk, go to the gym, spend time with friends or just spend time outside. This week I have struggled with bad sleep and that is just one condition where going out during daylight is recommended. Yet I struggle with an uninformed inner voice, telling me that if I call sick I then shouldn’t leave the house, let alone do something fun. And it’s reinforced by society at large.

    Do you have any examples to share?

    1. CheeryO*

      Oh, this is massively ingrained in me from when I was a kid. If I stayed home from school, there was no chance that I’d be allowed to do anything even remotely fun in the evening, even if I felt better.

      Once in a while I’ll take a sick day when I’m feeling vaguely under the weather, and I’ll sleep for 10 hours and feel fantastic afterward. I actually love those days, because I end up getting a lot done around the house in the afternoon, but there’s definitely some guilt involved.

      1. Bird Person*

        I call those my “about to be sick days”. It’s taken time, but since they keep me from getting sick for real, I no longer feel so bad about them. They’re for the company’s benefit, really :)

        1. Koala dreams*

          In my case the sick days keep me from making too many mistakes at work, so I feel it’s fair to not work those days. It took some time to get that far in my thinking, though. However, staying inside all day is not so good for my health, neither is sleeping too much.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      At a former job, a co-worker was off sick. Our supervisor spotted her at the supermarket that evening and Went Off about professionalism and fraud and so on.

      The family were all ill. How else was co-worker supposed to get supplies including diapers if not by going to the nearest shop guaranteed to have everything she needed?!

      Shortly after that, Mean Boss showed me how to falsify official documents rather than admit her error, so it’s pretty clear her moral compass was way off!

      I think sick leave has got way more complicated with the advent of remote working, per the letter earlier this week. I also note that with improved general health and medications, people are more casual about contagion than they might have been 75-100 years ago.

    3. Nessun*

      I’ve been suffering from asthma attacks all week, to the point where a coworker told me point-blank to just go home, because I was obviously miserable and tired. So I did – but I had an appointment with my gym trainer that day also, and going to the gym means walking past my office. It felt VERY odd to be walking past work in the afternoon, headed to the gym while I’d skipped out on being at my job, but I figured all I could do was hold my head up and tell myself it was no one else’s business where I was going or why. (My walking gait may have gotten a little heavy-footed and militant at that point, and I had a script in my head I started repeating, basically “No one’s business but mine; lots of injuries or sickness are invisible; I am an adult and no one has the right to police my movements”, etc.)

      At any rate, I went to the gym and had a very good session with my trainer. She’s an expert at stretches and breathing exercises, and she knew exactly how to work with me to alleviate all the tightness in my chest and even helped open my ribcage a bit, so every breath was less a misery than before. I feel a million times better than I did, and no one at work has asked me why I was out and about when I was “off sick”. …but if they had, they’d have got a dose of my mantra from the day before!

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I did the whole “drop by with the baby to say hi” thing towards the end of each (unpaid) maternity leave, and I wondered whether there was anyone thinking, “Gosh, if she’s out and about now, why hasn’t she come back to work yet?” I have no clue whether anyone actually thought that but the internalized guilt is real.

      1. Koala dreams*

        The child still needs care even after you are better after giving birth, so I doubt anyone thought anything like that. Of course, that doesn’t help with the inner voice.

    5. KoiFeeder*

      If you have EDS, dislocating your shoulder at people asking you why you’re out if you have a chronic illness works wonders. :p

  86. Food for thought*

    Just wondering… would you consider it stealing to take an online resume template (free or otherwise) and recreate it for your own use?

      1. Food for thought*

        I mean if you don’t download and pay for a template so you just recreate it yourself. I guess it’s not really an issue for free templates, but for the ones that want you to pay to use them.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          So, eyeballing it and recreating it? Copying it closely to get round the fee?

          You know the answer.

          Skimming it and using general concepts to inform your own work is one thing. Copy typing and pretending that’s not the same as photocopying …

          1. LilySparrow*

            I don’t think recreating the layout is unethical at all – if you can.

            The point of paying for a template is that the work is already done, and you don’t have to do all the formatting from scratch. If you’re going to format from scratch, go ahead and make it look like anything you want.

            Just like recreating a restaurant dish by taste isn’t “stealing” anything from the restaurant.

  87. New team lead*

    I’m taking the lead role in a team that has been lead in a very, very consensus-driven fashion–everything was discussed with every team member at highly inefficient team meetings that personally drove me crazy as a team member. Direct orders were rare; suggestions and vague talk of what “we” should do were frequent.

    As team lead, I don’t want to make a radical cultural shift, as I think that would backfire, but I also don’t like to discuss minute decisions with everyone and waste their time. I’ve been making more decisions and simply ordering that simple things be carried out rather than seeking input, and it seems like some people are jarred by this–even when the decision was very small, like “remove Bob from this email list to de-clutter his inbox”. Really, I hardly think I’m autocratic.

    Any thoughts on how to handle this? Will they get used to it eventually?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Just tell them you’re going to streamline things for a while, not every decision has to have team input, it will make meetings more productive, etc. I’d keep them posted about things ( and maybe Bob needed to be on that email list for some reason). If you’re doing this to get them ready to take on something bigger, tell them that, too.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Hold a team meeting and lay out your expectations: “I’m restructuring our team meetings for efficiency/to better meet schedule/whatever reason. The meeting will focus on reporting status and problems in each area.” Work on problem solving outside the meeting in a focused group of stakeholders.

      I work on a team in which the project lead loves to get consensus. It was great a few years ago when the project kicked off and only a handful of people were working on it. Now we’re at 20+ and growing and he still wants consensus. We are now months behind schedule. I just want scream, “can you please just give us a clear assignment with a due date?”

    3. Kes*

      I think you could tell them that to improve efficiency you will be making some decisions yourself, but that you still value their expertise and to come to you if they have input on a particular issue (assuming this is true and you are willing to listen to their concerns on particular issues). Beyond that, there likely will be some adjustment since it’s not the style they’re used to, but they will likely adjust over time, especially if you make it clear they can still have a say on matters where it would be important

  88. Temperance*

    If you are using it for yourself – as in, to apply for jobs – no. If you are going to take someone else’s work and somehow profit from it, yes, it’s stealing.

  89. Eliasaph*

    The Man, Becky Lynch: Thank you for your advice last week about temp agencies. I followed it and I start at a temp-to-hire job Monday. I’m so excited!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Score! I loved temping, it’s so great. And if you find that it’s awful there, complete the assignment and dance out the door!

      1. Clisby*

        I did, too (while in graduate school). I can’t remember ever having a bad temp job. There were, for sure, jobs I would never have been interested in permanently, but I just wanted to earn money to pay the rent while in congenial surroundings.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That’s awesome, I hope it’s a great position! I had a feeling with the unemployment rates these days, you’d get in quickly if you confirmed that you’re a person, who is ready to work =)

  90. Betty*

    I’m hoping for advice on when to tell my boss I’m pregnant. I am just into my 2nd trimester (due in very late March/early April). I work at a small firm that consists of me, two other staff, my boss (CEO) and the COO. We have a team lunch planned on Tuesday, and I was thinking I’d tell the group then, and say that of course I expect to have more conversations back in the office about the specifics of logistics.

    The biggest issue I’m concerned about is that a couple weeks ago, we submitted a letter of intent for a proposal for which I’m the project lead; until the day we submitted I thought it would start in June, which seemed manageable for a maternity leave ending in late June/start of July, but as we were submitting my boss casually noted that I had the dates wrong and it would start in May. So we will need to have a more detailed conversation about the implications of my leave for that project (including whether we should even pursue a full proposal). So I’m not sure if it’s bad form to introduce this at the lunch as “hey, I have great news” or if I should be more upfront in recognizing that it’s complicated from a work perspective.

    2. Joielle*

      I might frame it as “exciting news,” which is only subtly different from “great news,” but I think the difference is helpful. Because it IS objectively exciting! Even if people are negatively impacted from a work perspective, I don’t think anyone could argue that having a baby isn’t exciting news. And “exciting” keeps it positive without sounding like you’re glossing over any potential difficulties.

      And then, like you said, tell them that you expect to have more conversations about the logistics, which you know might be complicated… but you’re excited for this big change. And congrats!

  91. sadlands*

    How do you work with a serial denier especially if that person is higher up in the hierarchy than you?
    EX of denial behavior:
    SD: “Why did you name this ‘Happy Land Marketing Report’? It should be named ‘Happy Land Commission Report’.” Me: “You asked me to make you a ‘Happy Land Commission Report’.”
    SD: “No I didn’t. Do you have proof?”

    My issue is that even if I write an email, they’ll verbally respond and it’s not like I can ignore their requests because they have a lot of power over me.

    1. op*

      Also, the example I provided is pretty benign. It’s worse when they verbally request a project with so and so parameters. I email them back their specifics and ask them to review and confirm, but they never respond. There has been more than one occasion where that’s caused issues.

    3. LCH*

      sorry, saw your second post late. you have the email you sent to them… what do they say when you show it to them and ask why they didn’t correct your understanding of the project at that time?

      1. op*

        They tell me that their inbox is constantly flooded and if I need to relay an important message then I need to speak with them directly.

        1. Oldster*

          Could you write it down and and bring a copy(ies) with you when you talk to them? This way you will have a digital dated copy and they can have a copy. Make any necessary changes during your meeting and make sure he sees this and approves then and there. Make digital changes noting time and place of the meeting.

          1. Kathenus*

            Yes! Make sure that they sign your hard copy at the time so that you have their signed approval for your records.

    4. ElizabethJane*

      I email them back with “Per our conversation I am going to do X. I’ll start tomorrow unless you would like me to proceed in a different way”.

      Basically ‘If you don’t reply to this email you’re agreeing with what I said”

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Yep. I was going to suggest read receipts but it sounds like your manager is canny enough to just not open emails from you. This way you put the onus on them so if they haven’t read it by their own admission, they’ve defaulted to agreeing with your course of action.

    5. nacho*

      Write down everything they say, as they say it. Frame it as you not wanting to mis-remember anything if you have to, but make sure they see you do it in a notebook or something. Then you can pull that out as your “proof” if they ask for it.

    6. LilySparrow*

      I dealt by not trying to win the argument. Winning = getting the things done that I need to do, not convincing them I’m right.

      That means basically ignoring all the denying and getting the conversation over with as quickly as possible. “Oh, that was the working title we started with. What did you want the final title to be? Great, I’ll change it now.”

      Crazymakers like making people crazy. The more you ignore it and roll right over it, the less they wind up doing it.

  92. Foster Dog*

    on my resume, would it be weird to list that I’m a foster dog parent and volunteer for a local shelter? I’m mostly a foster parent for the dogs and puppies. I would put it under volunteer section. Although, I don’t know if this is weird. I would get people putting the volunteer at a shelter, but I don’t know anyone who would put foster dog parent…

    1. Emi.*

      I wouldn’t. A lot of people are put off by referring to pet care as “parenting” (is it standard for fostering? I bet a lot of people don’t know that even if it is), but more importantly, taking care of a pet isn’t resume material. Volunteering could be, though!

    2. thanks for what you do!*

      I would just put that you volunteer for a local dog shelter and if they ask about it, you can expand further and talk about your fostering.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Agreed. If you have a volunteer section, I think this makes sense. I think your field and role would impact whether it’s a plus or minus to have a volunteer section at all.

    3. finally october*

      Does it have any relevance to the job you’re applying for? If so, sure. If not, I’d leave it out.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        This. Unless the job involves minding dogs, it’s not likely to be relevant. Most people aren’t going to know the difference between “I have a dog” and “I’m a foster dog parent” so they will think that you are just putting “I have a dog!” on your resume.

  93. qjames*

    Guys, it’s my first time working with a toxic boss, and I’m already losing my will to be here after a month… how do people put up with rude, mean micromanagers for months on end? I’m going to try to get out but it’ll likely be ages…

    1. Human Embodiment of the 100 Emoji*

      Saaaaame.

      I’ve decided to frame my boss in my head as a Michael Scott type – someone whose insecurities and lack of self-awareness manifest in being rude to their employees and an ineffective manager, but who I can roll my eyes at because its not truly malicious (and even if it is, that’s a Him problem and not a Me problem).

      Maybe that’ll help? I feel like its a good way to detach emotionally from the situation.

    2. Remote Cat Herder*

      The best technique is to do things every week to try to get out. This will help you stay in the mindset of “it’s only for a little while.” Set an achievable goal each week, like sending out X resumes or responding to X job postings. It will really keep your morale up.

      Also, keep an eye on whether it starts to affect your health. That sort of thing can sneak up on you. If you notice it, then consider getting out by using a temp agency to bridge the gap between this job and your next one.

  94. Nottodaythanks*

    We have this at University and no, they don’t pay for our phones. We also have to give them default access to our phones if we install anything work-related, like email, so they can wipe it in the event of theft. I’m currently keeping up with two calendars, one at work, and a second one on my phone where I duplicate my work appointments because I have no intention of giving them access to my phone. It’s inconvenient because my personal calendar won’t be updated if someone changes a meeting location or time unless I have the information in time to make the update.

  95. Slightly panicking*

    My employer (academic) recently started allowing us to work a couple of days from home. I have found this invaluable. Our new grandboss is now telling us we have to provide a formal justification for this and he will then approve or not on a case by case basis.

    Does anyone have suggestions for framing this? This is academia so I can’t point to cost savings.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      What’s your role?

      One of my (many) hats is analyst, but I share my office with client-facing staff, so I tend to work from home when I need to concentrate.

      1. Slightly panicking*

        I’m faculty in an academic support unit. I can make an argument for concentration and focus, but I am sensing he’s going to want a lot more than this.

    2. Llellayena*

      Can you quantify it? “When I work from home I am able to concentrate better and can get X number of things done. When I try to do the same tasks in the office I can complete X-Y.”

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Is there a written policy that gives parameters for work from home? If so, use it to provide the basis of your justification.

  96. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

    For those of you who work remotely – what is something you wish you had known BEFORE working full time from home? Favorite strategies for staying motivated? Favorite background noises?

    I’m working remote for a couple months (200 miles away from my office) and then going back to being in the office full time in January. Before this, I never really enjoyed working from home, so this is not exactly an exciting adventure for me. I miss having my colleagues right next to me and the background noise of people working together and free coffee. My apartment is cold and quiet and quite frankly I am lonely. So help me out! How do you stay sane when you work 100% remote?

    1. dw*

      I didn’t realize how hard it was to stop working when you worked from home. Also, every break I took I felt oddly guilty about.

      One thing I love though is that in the office, the windows can’t be opened, but at home, I can open the window and let the fresh air in, hear the birds, etc. So lovely.

      1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

        Yes to the breaks! I worry about being seen as a slacker by my coworkers if they can’t immediately reach me at all times, so I’m constantly worried about being gone from my laptop for too long. I’ll need to find a strategy for allowing myself to step away.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      For background noise, I often put a show on Netflix that I’ve watched before– people talking works better for me than music. The TV is in another room, so that helps. (My partner thinks this behavior is super weird.)

      In my case, I have a dog, so I have constant companionship and I am required to get up and go outside for at least 20 minutes every afternoon. You may not have a dog, but can you take a break, just for a walk? I now live in a city on a block with coffee shops and I’m surrounded by people, but when I worked from home in the ‘burbs, the walks were just as nice. If you like to listen to audiobooks or podcasts, make it a special time you set aside to go out and listen while you get your blood flowing.

      Call your colleagues. Most days I can go without speaking to anyone, but sometimes there are issues that are best discussed on the phone. I also have one co-worker who likes to have weekly personal catch-ups, so we make time for that.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Yes, it’s lonely, even for someone who enjoys their own company. I think it’s important to schedule human contact time into your day (even if it’s just going out to buy a coffee) and week (happy hour with friends? joining your neighbour to walk the dog on a Saturday morning?).

      If you have a roommate or partner who works out of the house, they may well want to stay in quietly most evenings – because they’ve already had their fix of socialising and noise and stimulation. That’s your cue to go to the gym, or take up a basket weaving evening class, or whatever, to get you OUT without relying heavily on them to provide all your human contact needs.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yes, it’s lonely, even for someone who enjoys their own company.

        See, and I’m never lonely. Taking a fully remote position was the best decision I ever made.

        I usually have at least one call a day (sometimes I can have up to five different calls with colleagues around the globe), so I get human interaction that way and when I go out to the store or to Starbucks or to a restaurant for lunch, etc. If I ever need background noise (which is rare), I turn on my TV and play music through Pandora – I think I’ve only worked while watching TV twice in the five months I’ve been in this position.

        I agree with the suggestion above – make sure to take lots of breaks, preferably outside, so that you don’t get stir crazy. The guilt about this will pass, I promise you, lol. If you’re not hourly, just remind yourself that you’re salaried and you’re being paid for your output, not the amount of time it took you to do a task. As long as you continue to churn out high quality work, don’t feel bad if you do so in 32 hours a week instead of 40 for example.

    4. Brazilian Hobbit*

      I’ve been 100% remote since 2012, and I personally love it. One of the things I do is have videos I’ve already watched rolling for background noise. I usually choose a YouTube channel I follow and start listening to all of their videos. It helps me not be in complete silence and I’m still focused on what I’m doing.

  97. Eillah*

    I JUST SUCCESSFULLY NEGOTIATED MY FULL TIME SALARY (FROM TEMP) FROM 70K INITIAL OFFER TO 76!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AYIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!

  98. Mrs. C*

    I could use the group’s advice on how to explain to interviewers why I’m leaving my current job.

    Long story short, I’m at a nonprofit where there has been a huge leadership turnover, leading to lots of behind the scenes problems (pretty big ethics violations, lack of vision for the future, etc.) I’m afraid that if I get into too much detail with potential employers, that I’ll be badmouthing my current organization. At the same time, I’ve only been here one year, and I don’t want employers to think that I’ll run away at the first hint of change at their company.

    So, in my shoes, how would you answer the question “why are you looking to leave your current job?”

    1. TriesHard*

      I always just go by the standard “I am looking to expand my career into (THING NEW COMPANY IS OFFERING)”.

      1. Kes*

        Yeah, you can say there has been a lot of leadership turnover but another safe option is to just focus on the positives you’re looking for in the new job especially in regards to your work rather than the negatives of your previous work environment

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Honestly, I’d take a leaf out of the corporate doublespeak playbook and talk about it as a culture fit. You found that the culture at XYZ Charity isn’t what you’d expected, and so you’re looking to move to somewhere that’s more _____ (fill in the blank with attributes the place you’re interviewing for tends to promote about themselves).

    3. Natalie*

      “Don’t badmouth your current employer” doesn’t mean you can’t say anything with the slightest hint of negativity. “There has been a lot of leadership turnover and I would prefer someplace more steady” is completely true and mild. No one sensible is going to consider it badmouthing.

      1. Mrs. C*

        I really like that wording about preferring someplace more steady!

        I think my hangup is whether I can stay as vague as saying “a lot of leadership turnover,” without going into detail about what that turnover was or how it came about, which could lead me in a direction of talking about some of the most insane office politics I’ve ever seen.

        1. Natalie*

          It might be helpful to have some specifics handy in case they ask follow up questions, but your instinct to avoid the office politics stuff is dead on. It can be useful to talk about it in numbers, as in, “half of my department has left in the last year” or “we have had three executive directors since 2010”. But tbh in my experience they won’t usually keep prying.

          1. Mrs. C*

            That “three executive directors since 2010” can definitely be modified for my circumstances. Thank you!

    4. ElizabethJane*

      For the most part I’ve found one short term job on your resume doesn’t really hurt things. “Oh I thought I wanted to work in XYZ non profit industry but it turns out it’s not actually a great fit for me. I am however really excited about ABC thing that job I applied for does”

  99. NeedsCake*

    When you guys quit, do you make an effort to hide where you are going next? I heard stories where people were as tight lipped as the CIA on their next steps, for fear that the boss would call the other company and trash their reputation as revenge (SO PETTY). I had ex-colleagues who claimed they were going back to school, only to see their linkedin update on their new job in a month’s time.
    In my case, I think my boss is a very nice and supportive person. In fact, because my contract was ending, they told me quite early that unfortunately they can’t renew my contract, that I should start job hunting, and they will help with references. Would it be okay if I just let them know WHERE I am going to work at next, since it’s confirmed now?

    1. velocisarah*

      I like to share where I’m going because all of my exits have been amicable, and often it helps the “sting” of losing someone if my boss knows that I’m going somewhere good for my career. For my last job, I emphasized that I was leaving for the part-time benefits (I got 2 work days to write my novel, woo!) and it does help form the leave as positive, and give more context if a memo is going out about your leaving.

      If you have a petty boss, you probably know by the time you’re ready to leave. If you’re REALLY worried then sure, it’s good to be cautious, but people are more than likely just curious what kind of new position/environment you’re off to :)

    2. Kes*

      Yeah, I think if your boss is reasonable and supportive it’s totally fine to tell them where you’re going. That’s even more true in this case since they know you’re job hunting and have no reason to sabotage you to keep you in your current role since they can’t keep you anyways.

  100. MsPantaloons*

    Very late to the party but if anyone has any favorite books/courses/resources on building client relationships I’d welcome any recommendations!!

    My new-ish job is the first time I’ve been client facing in several years and a few steps up in terms of client responsibility (like, I’ve done a lot of general one-to-many customer service vs. now working with a single enterprise account). I’m good at most aspects of the job (managing deliverables, shuttling feedback around internally, etc) but not super comfortable with the relationship building parts, and hungry for ideas.

  101. MsChanandlerBong*

    I am loving my new recruiting responsibilities so much, partly because I already have some crazy stories.

    Remember last week’s candidate who kept putting a random string of words on my calendar? It was NOT a glitch; that’s the “name” he has attached to his email account. I asked him if he could please use his name so that I would be able to match our phone appt. with his application materials. Well, that did not work out well. I won’t get into details, but suffice it to say he called me lazy and incompetent, called my boss to complain about me, and left a bad review of our company on Google Maps.

    Second WTH moment of the week: I had a phone interview scheduled with someone. I called, and when she answered, she barked “WHAT?!” at me. The call failed, so I called her back. Again, “WHAT?!” I explained that we had an interview scheduled, and she told me it was a bad time. If something bad had happened, like an illness, I would be totally understanding if she said “I know I picked 10:00 for our interview, but I’m sick, and I would love to reschedule so that we can talk when I am at my best.” I’d reschedule in a heartbeat. But she was SO rude that I have no interest in adding her to our team.

    I am really surprised by the way some people behave when they are trying to get a job.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I actually find it funny. Five years ago, it would have reduced me to tears (I have had low self-esteem for most of my life, but I have been working really hard not to let it interfere with work). But I know for a fact I’m not lazy and incompetent, and my boss even emailed me after the guy called and said he is 100% confident I do my best and have not dropped the ball or treated anybody unfairly. So that helps, too.

    2. TriesHard*

      Man, when I am job hunting I’d be on my BEST BEHAVIOUR EVER for fear that even sitting wrong would cause people to hate my job applying guts! I am amazed by the things other people will do instead.

    3. WellRed*

      Why am I not surprised that he turned out to be a bad candidate. At least he showed his true colors.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        That’s my favorite part too! (Weirdly I have seen business reviews on Google Maps and I never knew what to think about that, but now I know it’s just incompetent weirdos)

    6. Nanobots*

      I’ve been wondering what ever happened with Gibberish Calendar man! I hope he never finds a job.

      I something think about transitioning into recruiting. Then I talk to recruiters and get these crazy stories, and quash that idea. I freeze up in absurd situations. And I hate talking on the phone. So yeah, I’ll just keep maintaining their software and letting them do the magic of interacting with candidates.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        He said he was going to tell his friends to avoid our company. In my head, I was like, “Well if they’re anything like you, GOOD.”

  102. velocisarah*

    I’m getting married in July, and I’m wondering about inviting co-workers who don’t live where I’m getting married? This isn’t really a “destination wedding”, as I’m getting married back home where I grew up, in the same country with a fairly sizable guest list, just far away. I’m from Province A, about a 16 hour drive/3 hour flight away from where I live now in Province B. I moved to Province B with my SO as he’s finishing his PhD, but our wedding is in Province A (long-distance planning and all!).

    If I worked in the same city as I’m getting married I’d probably invite my coworkers, but I feel like it’s quite the ask. Generally I get along closely/well with my current co-workers (I’d say I’m the social butterfly of our group, chatty east coaster!) and I could even imagine they may throw some kind of small party for me, given baby showers have been done in the past for others and this feels on the same level as that. I don’t want anyone to feel left out but I also don’t want anyone to feel pressured.

    Something that’s colouring my worry here is that at my last job in this province, a co-worker I disliked greatly assumed he was getting an invite, and it’s made me worry others have that same expectation!

    The number of invitees would be about 4 or 5 max (small team). Would an invite come off as a token invitation, like something for their fridge/desk but not with the expectation they’ll actually come (again, no issue with them coming!), or would it come off as I’ll be super disappointed if they didn’t come? I feel more neutral about it than anything, “nice to have” kind of invitees.

    I want to be able to casually talk about my plans occasionally, and I don’t want anyone to feel slighted! Or maybe this is a “some people are going to feel different ways no matter what, that’s just how the cookie crumbles” kind of deal?

    2. CheeryO*

      A 3-hour flight, plus hotel, plus gift is too much to ask from a coworker unless you’re close friends outside of work. I’d probably see that invitation as a token invitation (or worse, a gift grab). I don’t think anyone will be offended, but you could always just say that you’re keeping it small. Let them throw you a little shower if they want to do something to celebrate, but I would keep that can of worms firmly shut.

      1. CheeryO*

        I’ll add that some people are just really weird about weddings. A coworker of mine just got married, and there were a handful of people who just assumed they would get an invitation because they invited everyone in the office to THEIR wedding, before she had even started. Like, that’s not how any of this works!

        1. velocisarah*

          That kind of thinking is where my worries stemmed from! Cool, glad I’m getting a no all around – thank you!

      2. Policy wonk*

        I actually asked my coworkers if they wanted to be invited, told them I didn’t want to put them out, and I didn’t expect gifts. One from my home town got an invitation because her mom had health issues, so she thought she might be able to attend. Another wanted an invite because her daughter, very young, and liked “fancy” things. The others declined. Made it easy.

    3. Venus*

      Maybe invite them to an evening celebration near work, where you offer to buy them a couple drinks to celebrate, as “the wedding is too far away so they won’t be invited”?

      Sending an invitation as a formality is a recipe for trouble – they may feel pressured to go, or to get you a gift. I would just suggest another option, and make it clear that this gathering is a replacement for an invitation.

    4. Kes*

      If you’re chatting about the wedding and the venue with coworkers who you are close to I’d probably just drop a mention of how you’re limiting who you’re inviting from since it would be unreasonable to expect them to travel there

    5. Ann Perkins*

      Metrics for thought when inviting coworkers: Do I spend time with them outside of work? If I left this job, would I keep in touch with them? If the answer to those is no, they don’t need an invitation regardless.

  103. Jan Levinson*

    My small office has a corporate-mandated inventory every October. They’re pretty flexible on what date we hold this on. Inventory is an “all hands on deck” sort of thing, so everyone is absolutely expected to be there.

    About four months ago, I told my manager, Angela that my husband and I were planning on taking a vacation to Florida in October that would put me out of the office from 10/16-10/18. I was clear that I wanted to give her a heads up so that she didn’t schedule inventory on one of those days, assuming she would want me there. She said that she appreciated the heads up, and would make note of that. So, I put in my vacation request shortly after, which she approved.

    A couple weeks ago, I receive a “high importance” email addressed to everyone in the office from Angela. She states that inventory will be held on October 16th, and that everyone is expected to be there, NO EXCEPTIONS! I internally start freaking out, thinking she perhaps forgot about my vacation. I respond to the email, reminding her that I have vacation scheduled for that day. She replies with, “Yes, I’m aware, thanks. We’ll get your duties covered.” For what it’s worth, myself and one other employee in the office are always the two “data entry” people during inventory. We enter into our system everything that’s been counted, while everyone else in the office is a “counter. So, someone will have to be shifted from “counter” to “data entry” in my absence.

    I assumed her email meant that we were all good. However, since then, I’ve had multiple people say to me, “Angela says you’re going to be gone for inventory. Lucky you, did you do that on purpose to get out of it?” I’ve calmly told everyone who’s asked that, no, I actually made a point of telling Angela long ago when my vacation was so that she could schedule it on a day I WASN’T going to be on vacation. Additionally, I’ve overheard my manager twice now telling others in a snarky voice, “yeah, well, Jan is going to be out on vacation, so that’s going to put us in a difficult situation.” I don’t understand why she’s acting so annoyed that I’m going to be gone. I was proactive about telling her when my vacation was. She has the final say on when inventory is scheduled, so I don’t know why she would schedule it during my vacation if it really puts the company in a “difficult situation.”

    FWIW, I’m a high performer and have always gotten great feedback. I don’t have a pattern of “skipping out” on important work related stuff.

    1. Kes*

      I have to wonder from that whether she actually did forget and didn’t want to admit it/email everyone again to change the date so just tried to cover it.
      That sucks that you’re now having to deal with this situation which is totally not your fault.

      1. valentine*

        Yeah, she forgot, but got the 16th burned into her brain, and so scheduled inventory that day, and is now being a complete fiend about it. And they should be able to do without you, anyway.

  104. TriesHard*

    As I get ready for my new job, I am hoping to collate some new job tips. Can you offer any good tips on avoiding being kicked out after the 3 month probationary period? So far I have:

    1. Make friends. Have lunch with your coworkers. Chat with them during breaks. The faster you make friends, the more comfortable you will be in this new environment.
    2. Observe the work culture. Make an effort to come early and stay late during the first few months.

    1. AwkwardTurtle*

      Probationary periods are terrible, IMHO. Be clear with what your supervisor expects from you in terms of work output during those three months and beyond. Have periodic check-ins with them, ask questions, and try to anticipate other people’s needs from you.

    2. Natalie*

      Have you been let go during a probationary period before? It’s never been that common in my experience, so I wonder if you’re overthinking things a bit? Not to sound flip, but my tip would be do what you can to quell excessive worrying.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Definitely. Do not do this if you’re the only one. It’s not impressive and may come across as not managing your time well.

        Do take notes if/when you are being trained.

    4. Qwerty*

      Most people pass the probationary period. While I am not a fan of them, the purpose is basically that if it becomes obvious that the role is not a right fit, they can avoid their usual PIP process.

      Basically just be on your best behavior and try to do your job well. Tricks like putting in extra hours will set up the expectation that you will always work long hours. It can backfire and look like you need a lot of extra time to complete the work that you are given, since many workplaces ease you into the workload. I’d be concerned if I was only giving someone small easy tasks and they had to stay late to complete them.

    5. Brazilian Hobbit*

      Do your best to be a fast learner. If you need to record training sessions, make notes and create documents, do it. Create processes for whatever they can be created for so you have a go-to. Ask questions and make notes of the answers, so people can see you’re willing to ask for help and also to figure out ways to make sure you won’t have to ask the same questions over and over.
      Good luck with your new job!

  105. AwkwardTurtle*

    So, I almost got laid off yesterday. Because of funding not coming through until sometime next year, I will be at 50% LOE at my current project. But my company offered me to work on their other projects for the remaining 50% LOE. Everyone says that’s great and I definitely will accept the offer. I have at least a week to confirm. But my anxiety/pessimism brain is telling me how the heck am I going to manage multiple projects again when I did so terribly at that in my last job?! I just felt so rattled and in disarray when I was an assistant to 5 projects. I also find project management less interesting than research but I would like to have a go at it again. I guess my question is how do I stop my anxiety from ruining things?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      (I don’t have (clinical) anxiety, so this may not work for you)

      I like the Stoic’s approach: Draw three columns. In the first, write the worst-case scenario. In the second, write up what you will do to resolve/solve/fix if that worst-case scenario comes to pass. In the third, write what you can do to prevent that worst case scenario.

      Then, write out the secondmost worse case scenario. Then write out the solution, then prevention measures.

      Repeat as needed until you run out of worst case scenarios.

  106. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    In a recent open thread, I posted about having to cover reception and then train a new receptionist who is computer illiterate. It gets worse.

    So before I switched departments, I worked for what we’ll call the Llama Grooming department for two years. During that time, my official job was basic admin support but I got roped into providing technical support. I prepared a case in writing for why I should either be reclassified and therefore paid more, or have my technical support duties reassigned to someone else since I was grossly overpaid for them. The position for my manager was vacant, so my grandboss, Wakeen, was acting manager, and my supervisor, Jane (who could assign me work but wasn’t a full manager) supported me completely. Wakeen met with me and seemed to agree with me and Jane, but never responded, even after I emailed him to follow up twice.

    So when I switched departments about three months ago, a new colleague, Bob, took over my former duties, and Wakeen hired a manager, Alice. I caught up with another member of our team, Ellie, and asked how Bob was doing. Ellie said that Bob was doing well, but that Alice realized that Bob shouldn’t be doing technical support, and was planning to reassign his technical support duties to another team member, Linda, who is at an even higher classification than I had asked to be reassigned to, when she returned from leave.

    The kicker? I’m a woman of color and Bob is a white man. I am LIVID. I literally asked Wakeen to address this situation and he wouldn’t, but Bob shows up, doesn’t even ask, and everyone else realizes he’s underpaid?! So I filed an HR complaint. I’m supposed to meet with our HR analyst next week. All I really want right now is backpay, but if they refuse, do I have a legal case?

    1. Reba*

      I’m glad you’re complaining to HR and I hope they are receptive.

      You can contact the EEOC — and/or if there is a state or local agency that handles enforcing anti-discrimination laws in your area. I believe you would need to do that before any lawsuit, in any case.

  107. Echo*

    Any ideas for how to help remote volunteers feel engaged and appreciated? I manage a team of ~30 volunteers who do a somewhat clerical volunteer task (1-2 hours/month) for a small organization with a teeny tiny volunteer engagement budget. The team I supervise does all their work remotely, and while I promote and encourage them to attend our org’s in-person volunteer fun events, many of them picked this volunteer opportunity because in-person stuff isn’t convenient for them. Any thoughts on how I can celebrate their work and help them feel like part of a community?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A kind personalized email can really go a long way to let people know you appreciate them. They’re volunteers, so they’re doing it out of the kindness of their heart and support for your mission. Returning their kindness with kind words go so far. Most volunteers aren’t expecting any kind of “perks” or too much acknowledgement because again, they’re volunteers and it’s a different kettle of fish than an employee.

      If you have their mailing addresses, really cute cute cards can be found at most dollar stores if you want to go that route but of course it costs a little for the cards and postage and your time.

      1. Anono-me*

        Certificates of appreciation. Award certificates.

        You can print this stuff up on your computer and mail it in flat envelope. (Postage cost a little bit more, but you save on the card.

        It shows that what they do matters and is appreciated. And depending on what is going on in their lives, it might be useful in a resume.

    2. 1234*

      $5 Starbucks gift cards could go a long way. It’s a small gesture but I know I would appreciate that as a “thank you for your hard work.”

  108. Analyis Paralysis*

    I need some advice on working on a writing sample when your work is very proprietary.

    I am in the final round of interviews at a new place which is GREAT because my current job is very toxic and it’s time to get out. The new place has asked me to bring a writing sample showing analysis based on data to this interview. This is fine, because this is what I do every day and I’m confident in both my writing skills and my analysis.

    The problem is that everything that I do at my current job is proprietary. I’ve signed plenty of NDA’s and we are reminded on a near daily basis that anything we need to send to outside parties needs to be checked and double checked that we are not releasing any information that we shouldn’t.

    Can I anonymize my analysis with ‘Company A’, etc? Can I include any numbers like x amount of reductions in y? What is the best way to go about making sure this new place can get a feel for my writing style and analysis without breaking any legal commitments I have to my current position? If it helps, these two positions are nowhere near the same field and there is no overlap. I am not looking to move to a competitor but to an entirely different industry.

    1. North Wind*

      How big an effort would it be to write a sample analysis based on a publicly available data set? Google has a public dataset search tool (“Google dataset search”), and there is also a bunch of data at data.world.

      Just a thought.

    2. Mimosa Jones*

      Can you find someone else’s data to analyze? Since you have both an extremely toxic workplace and a NDA, I’d choose something obviously not related that has a verifiable source. Surely somewhere, someone has posted their raw data online.

  109. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Not the Hellmouth! Lort in hebbin, y’all, I’ve spent most of the week handling the office by myself and I think I’m about to lose my mind. Manager has been out helping a sister property/taking scheduled time to work on his new house, and Assistant Manager had a truly dreadful family emergency come up and has been out for most of the week, so I have been picking up the slack and trying to keep things afloat. Additionally, I have had numerous unkind/entitled rich people wigging out for a host of ridiculous reasons (the snake killer resident from a few weeks back is having an absolute fit over being caught with an illegal puppy and being charged pet fees and not being allowed to have it on property until it is over 6 months old and I am actually kind of enjoying watching this all unfold), a few apartment tours where I felt kind of unsafe, a few more where I felt that if the person touring said one more horrible thing they would be unsafe from me, and also we now have a skunk. It loves our courtyard! There is video footage of it coming out to frolic at night. And my friends, it will defend its courtyard from all late night dogs and the people who walk them. Funnily enough, some of those dog walkers are actually from a rival complex right next to us, who 1) enjoy letting their pups poop with reckless abandon over here (and make no attempts to pick up said poop), and 2) think we should pay their dry cleaning bill. Fun times!

    I can honestly say two things: If one more old rich white dude tries to perform some bizarre power flex on me by mentioning their enormous wealth I am going to lose it (stuff like randomly telling me their net worth/saying that they could get their lawyer to make that post-move out charge for damages disappear except the lawyer has a higher hourly rate than the charge/name dropping random super wealthy friends out of the blue and telling me THEIR pedigree and net worth/etc., and yes all of those examples are for real); and if I didn’t have that state job lined up I probably would have already lost it.

    Unfortunately, it seems that the lady currently in charge of processing everything for new hires for my soon-to-be new office is ASTONISHINGLY SLOW. Slow even for the state. Like, REALLY slow even for the state. So slow that the section I will be working for literally has the worst stats out of every department. If I didn’t have a contact in the both the section where I will be working and another in the HR department keeping me up to date (and letting me nothing is wrong, I’m definitely still being hired), I would probably be freaking out by now (to my knowledge, only one of my references has been contacted, and there is a form that needs to be turned in to HR that takes most people 15 minutes to fill out but apparently takes this one lady several weeks has yet to materialize). On the plus side, my contact in the department (he’s a manager in that section) told me that he’s going to go and talk to the big boss and get all of the HR liaising and HR adjacent tasks assigned to me once I start, so… future hires won’t be left waiting 5 million years to get their start dates, because I will be ON TOP of that shizz. Of course, the bummer is that I am still hanging out in limbo, unable to give my notice. It’s starting to look like maybe I won’t even be able to start until November if this continues. Which brings me to a question: When Slowpoke Susan called to let me know I that I got the job and she was going to start getting my hiring stuff processed she gave me her number. Do y’all think that giving a friendly call just to “check in” might remind her that I exist and get her to turn my stuff in a little faster? Or should I continue to just silently wait it out? I can’t tell if the impulse to call is legitimately okay or if it is crazy and pushy and just because I would really like to have my definitive Goodbye Forever, Property Management; Hello, New Job with HR Experience and a More Livable Wage date set in stone. Thoughts? I’m about to work yet another Saturday and may have to take the next few Saturdays as well and it is definitely coloring my thought processes, so I could use some objective perspectives.

    1. Free Meerkats*

      “Slow even for the state.”

      This cracked me up. I thought “Island Time” in Hawaii was bad when I visited a cousin there for a couple of weeks. Then I spent a month with a relative in Slidell… You have my condolences and I hope new boss gets things moving soon.

    2. Interviewer*

      Squeaky wheel might get the grease. You never know. I’d call, let her know you’re waiting on the paperwork and a start date from her, so you can give your current job notice of your last day.

    3. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I work for a sloooowww state institution and definitely, pick up the phone. I have to check in frequently with the HR folks here to get action – in their defense, it’s because there are 2 people trying to do the work of maybe 4-5. But cheerfully checking in on stuff definitely helps around here! Good luck!

    4. Anon question*

      Hi! I hope it speeds up for you and you never meet the skunk!!

      In old news did you hear anything more from the lawyer who basically wanted you to sign a NDA for about $100? Or did you cackle at her and she gave up?

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thanks! I’m happy to watch it trotting around on the cameras, but yeah, I don’t think we need to meet irl! :D

        She made another attempt at contact after I said no thanks the second time, but that was the last that I heard from her. There may have been some cackling on my end, as well. I still have all of my rights to talk smack about the company, so I should probably write that tell all Devil Wears Prada-style novel, lol.

    5. sacados*

      Maybe make up some upcoming work thing/project that someone wants to assign you so you can be like “Just wanted to check in because I found out about Upcoming Thing and if my start date with you is going to be before XX then I should tell Not!Hellmouth to give Upcoming Thing to someone else” ?

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Definitely call! It might prod her into actually doing the paperwork.

      And LOL to your “rich” residents… if they had such a high net worth they probably wouldn’t be renting an apartment, now would they?

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Well, a good number of them cheated on their wives and got kicked out…

        In other news, the VERY PRIVATE INFORMATION that some people will randomly drop on unsuspecting property management employee is shocking.

  110. Ninja Exit*

    Sanity check: When resigning from a very client-facing position, is it normal to not tell clients you’re leaving and just have the company make the announcement after you’ve already left?

    Last Friday I gave my two-week notice after accepting an incredible new offer (yay me!). Current job is super client-facing, including one client I’ve been working with very closely for about a year. (Very closely meaning ~5 standing calls a week).

    I’m booked to go to a conference during my last week. I let the higher-ups make the call on whether I should travel or stay back and tie up loose ends. They want me to travel, so I’m going. Understandable – this conference is a great place to network with current/prospective clients and get their feedback! However, they don’t want me to tell any of these clients that I’m leaving. They also don’t plan to tell the year-long client until after I leave.

    At the end of the day, these are the company’s clients, not mine, but it all feels very weird to me. Any thoughts?

    1. velocisarah*

      Hey Ninja! I worked Communications with internal clients at my last job at a university. We make a hand-over plan for the clients to receive during my last week to tie up any loose details and for me to schedule times for them to have an intro meeting with their new comms person. I know there can be a lot of differences between internal and external clients, but the method of a “hand-over plan” was very effective for us, and made us seem on-the-ball with our clients even during a quick transition. I think I’ve seen around here that not telling clients isn’t uncommon, and maybe your higher-ups have an introduction plan for whoever takes over from you, but it’d be great for them to loop you in on that!

      1. velocisarah*

        oh also! Depending on your industry, I wonder if they’re worried of clients deciding to stick with you instead of their company (since you’re who they’re always working with), if you’re leaving for a similar kind of job in the same industry? If you’re gone before they know of a change, that might eliminate the potential for “snatching clients”, whether that’s realistic or not.

        1. Ninja Exit*

          Thanks for your advice! I’m working on something of a handoff plan, but it definitely won’t be something the clients see, it’s really more of an info dump/knowledge transfer. I think the trouble is that there isn’t really someone to take over for me when I leave, at least not yet. The client is literally going to find out the Monday I start my new job, so for the next week I need to keep pretending that I’m going to be on our scheduled calls moving forward.

          If nothing else, this is all very much affirming my decision to leave!

    2. sacados*

      I don’t necessarily agree with it, but handling it this way is not *unusual*
      Like velocisarah said, it could be concerns of poaching/making clients jump ship. Or sometimes it’s more of a stability thing — they don’t want clients talking to you thinking, this person already has one foot out the door I don’t know why I’m even sharing this with them, they won’t be around long enough to handle it. Or something like that. In that case, the idea is that even though you are the one interfacing with the client, their relationship is still with the company and not with you so the specific person in your role is less important.
      Reminds me of a letter from a while ago where the company used a name (like Susan Jones) as the contact for a certain client-facing role, so every single person in that role became “Susan” when talking to clients. The idea was so that clients would think it was always the same person in the role and not be flustered having to get used to a new point-person every time there was turnover. ;-p

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        (Good lord. I hope the role wasn’t advertised as an account rep, but as a voice impersonator, female, American English midwestern accent, age approx. 25-45 years…)

    3. tamarack and fireweed*

      In my previous job we did announce changes in the staff that is in day-to-day contact with an assigned client to the client, in a meeting for more important clients, beforehand: “There’s going to be a change. Seraphina has decided to pursue a new career direction. Yes, we’ll all miss her very much! Orestes is in the process of getting briefed by Seraphina, and we have him on the call here. Meet Orestes. You’ll still be dealing with Philomena for the ongoing billing/order processing/routine paperwork flow.” I don’t think we ever had a case where an account manager or director left/was fired suddenly. But there may have been an emergency reassignment where the less important client learned of it afterwards.

      I think it would not be out of order to send your one closest contact a short message from your personal account just after you left, saying you’d have preferred to announce it in person that you’ve left Teaspouts, Inc., but management decided on how to handle communication to clients. You enjoyed working with them and send best wishes for the future. (Except of course if you signed something to the contrary.)

  111. Play groh*

    Hey all, I’m not looking for advice, just thoughts.
    I’m at my first Real Job in a male dominated industry. The company opened a new office a couple months ago in a country that has a reputation for being unsafe for women. Currently, I am the only woman on a team with an opportunity to travel there. My boss asked a couple weeks ago if I wanted to join the first team trip. I said no. He didn’t ask why or any follow up questions but its because it was pretty short notice, things going on in my personal life, and general anxiety about travel.

    But then I learn every other member of my team is going. I’ve talked to the higher ups and they don’t think missing this trip will harm my career (there is very little overlap in work times because timezones so Skyping in isn’t an option). It’s kind of weird optics that all the men on my team are going when I’m not.

    The other women in the company I’ve talked to assumed I turned down the trip because of a safety concern. They all said they would want to go either. It’s got me thinking: how should have my boss handled this if he made the same assumption? He didn’t mention any reassurances or special considerations when he asked if I wanted to go. Have any of you been in a situation like this? What should a company do here?

    1. WellRed*

      I think you should have asked more questions about the trip before turning it down flat. Since you are so new, I don’t think the optics are as bad? In the future, ask your boss about safety concerns, etc and how they handle it.

      1. Play Groh*

        I’m not the newest person on the team. And the anxiety I have would be the same no matter where I was going, ie the visa process, catching flights, what if I got lost, what to pack.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Would it be possible for you to talk to someone else on your team about how these trips work so you can get some of those questions (about the anxieties, not the safety) answered? I know this was not your question, but it sounds like some of those anxieties would come up on future trips, and ultimately this could impact your role on the team.

          In terms of the safety itself, I think a great company would proactively have safety plans and share them in the context of planning a trip. But since they didn’t, it seems like you might have to ask the questions. If it’s an ongoing issue of not having plans, since its a new office, it might be worth getting together with people/women from other teams to raise the issue as a group; it would have long term impact if women are never able (willing) to attend trips to this country.

        2. tamarack and fireweed*

          So the issue seems to be more about expected travel than about your concern regarding the gender pattern? Clearly travel expectations from your employer’ and from your POV are not aligned.

          FWIW, from the manager’s perspective, if certain subgroups (women, minorities) systematically are overrepresented turning down opportunities that are ostensibly optional, but of high value for career development, it is time to investigate and countersteer.

          1. tamarack and fireweed*

            (I agree with others that “dangerous for women” has so many potential meanings that what should actually be done isn’t one-size-fits-all. Me, I would refuse to stay in a country where I would essentially live in a gated community/Western bubble while local women aren’t allowed to move independently through the public space. And that’s even though it probably wouldn’t be dangerous. Send me to field work in Northern North America, even into communities with relatively high crime figures, and I’m fine.)

    2. Reba*

      IDK, everyone has to make their own decisions on stuff like that. It is different if it’s dangerous like “war zone” or dangerous like “street harassment is rampant and local women have few rights” or dangerous like “carjackings are common, don’t drive at night.” And there are different considerations that the company could put into place, such as security, choice of hotels, etc.. FWIW, often when foreigners go on these kind of work junkets, they are kept somewhat cloistered and not exposed to the issues you would be if you lived there or traveled there as an individual.

      I’ve traveled to several places that are considered dangerous in various ways and in certain regions, and while foreigners are especially vulnerable to the kinds of security issues the countries were experiencing, my particular plans were very low risk (e.g. not going to the sensitive region, understanding that I don’t go out at night), so I decided I was ok with it. I’m familiar with these places, though. Traveling somewhere for the first time, on your first trip with this company, that has this kind of issue would definitely be stressful!

      I’m kind of surprised your boss didn’t ask for your reasons, it would have been an opening to discuss the safety issues such as they are and your company’s ways of dealing with them.

      Do you think it would be worthwhile having another conversation with him about it — more about travel in general? Will you be expected to go to this place in the future, for example?

    3. CheeryO*

      You would have to ask some questions about the logistics. Where will you be staying, how will you be traveling once you’re there, etc. Once you have all the information, you can decide if you need to be more pointed about your discomfort and asking if there’s more that can be done to ensure everyone’s safety.

      Is your office going to be traveling to the new office again in the future? It’s not great to be the only person to opt out of a work trip, even if it’s not really mandatory. I would try to come up with some coping strategies for your travel anxiety if it’s going to be an expectation going forward.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        It’s not great to be the only person to opt out of a work trip, even if it’s not really mandatory.

        This – it will be held against you, even if only subconsciously.

    4. sacados*

      The only thing I can think of that could maybe have been done differently is the company could have been clearer when they asked you that everyone else on the team was going?
      In a case like this, I don’t think you need to worry too much about optics or consequences. You said there were a lot of other reasons why you would prefer not to take any trip at this time and it sounds like your bosses understood that. If the trips are somewhat frequent though, you definitely don’t want there to become a pattern where every single trip all of the men go and you don’t.
      Also, as others have pointed out, the safety of a specific country is one thing but you definitely should look into ways to ease your anxiety regarding work travel in general. Because this is going to come up again in some form.
      To echo Reba and LlamaWrangler, work travel is very different from regular travel. I’ve been to India, Malaysia, and Thailand multiple times on work trips, all of which are countries that can have various safety concerns. But all travel (from airport to hotel, hotel to vendor office, etc) was either in a car sent by the company or a taxi/Uber but my team was always traveling together. Same with going out for dinner or other entertainment in the evenings, it’s nearly always either being taken out somewhere by the vendor/client we are visiting or going as a group with the team. So there really were very few safety concerns compared to going somewhere alone or on vacation.

    5. YetAnotherUsername*

      A lot of men I’ve worked with have worked in places like Saudi Arabia. It’s absolutely not expected that a woman would go or usually even be asked. I think it’s probably a good thing your boss offered you the opportunity, in case I it would be an advantage, but it’s not surprising he just accepted your “no” without asking questions. I think he handled it fine.

    6. CM*

      As far as your boss, giving you the option to go but not pressuring you to go is probably an okay strategy, but there’s a bigger picture question about what the company’s general attitude toward the country and its political situation is — especially if it’s a place where women don’t have equal rights. If they’re shaking hands with a bunch of misogynists or something, you want to know why so you can make your own decision about whether this company shares your values.

  112. Mockingjay*

    Applying what I have learned at AAM, I have a meeting this afternoon with my project lead. The project has grown immensely in the last year, in scope and staff. Consequently, more and more stuff keeps getting dumped on me, especially tasks way outside my swim lane, but since I’ve been on the team the longest, he relies on me to onboard and train the new people, plus handle all the office “housekeeping” tasks.

    So yesterday I outlined all of the responsibilities, tasked and assumed, that have been given to me. I requested that 1) mundane tasks be assigned to support staff (of whom we have plenty) and 2) the remaining work be prioritized.

    He seemed really receptive. I’ll let you know how it goes.

    1. Admin Formerly Known as Actor*

      That’s awesome that you were able to gather all the evidence and lay it out for your project lead, and I really hope the meeting goes/went well!

    2. Mockingjay*

      Meeting went well. I’m compiling a “Who Does What and Where Can I Find It” list, which project lead will distribute to team with stern instruction to USE it. We discussed current and upcoming projects and prioritized.

  113. JM*

    I’m finally moving to a new team soon and I’m so relieved. I had a rough summer due to my partner’s health issues (which my boss knew about) and my boss decided that was a great time to basically tell me I was doing everything wrong. It was overwhelming and I shut down initially. I am interested in how others handle negative feedback. I’ve been able to take one or two points and work on them, but when I got a lot at once, it was overwhelming and made me feel like I was just garbage at my job and I could never change.

  114. Producer Girl*

    Is there a preferred way to denote on your resume that some of your tenures at various jobs were cut short due to involuntary layoffs? I was let go from two jobs in a row, and I worry that on my resume it looks like I couldn’t keep the job or was job-hopping, and that it may disqualify me from consideration. Are all candidates given the benefit of the doubt, or is it common to pass on resumes like mine? I’m very qualified for various roles but have not heard a peep after 50+ applications and worry that it may be a factor. Thanks!

    1. sacados*

      I think there have been some past letters where Alison addressed this. I can’t remember specifically, but she recommended some way to list it on a resume, like writing layoff after the end date or something? Similar to how you would indicate if something was a contract or fixed term position so that it didn’t look like you were job hopping.

      1. sacados*

        Actually never mind, I looked and it sounds like Alison says that layoffs should be explained in an interview, not resume or cover letter — which doesn’t help if a resume that makes it look like you’re a job-hopper is preventing you from getting interviews in the first place…
        I guess in that sense, maybe the better thing would be to reevaluate some of these jobs and if they are particularly short stays maybe leave them off the resume all together?

      2. Mockingjay*

        I do contract work and have been laid off. I’ve addressed in my resume like this:

        Acme Corp., Jan 2017 – Feb 2018
        Under contract for Big Project, performed duties…

    2. JustaTech*

      One of my coworkers has a resume that looks very job-hoppy, but several of those were because the company she worked at went under. I’m trying to remember what note she put next to those entries to indicate “company gone”. I don’t think that would apply for layoffs that weren’t the end of the company, though.

      (It turns out said coworker is a bit incline to wanderlust, but that’s not a failing and she hasn’t quit yet.)

  115. hbc*

    I know this is a not the best place to get legal advice, but I’m not having a lot of luck getting the corporate lawyer to speak practically about actual risk versus impact.

    The situation came up where we had people test positive for marijuana in their pre-employment drug screen. We’re in a state where it’s been legal for a while, and given that the test can be positive for up to a month after usage, I’m pretty upset that we’re missing out on good candidates based on what they do 1) legally 2) in their free time 3) before they could even comply with our drug-free policy. I tried to come up with some compromises like surprise testing them in the next 3 months of employment or not allowing them to drive the forklift, but no dice. Our discussion basically went in circles.

    Anyway, does anyone have any experience with the actual risk of additional liability of bringing someone on board with a positive test for marijuana? Statistics that show you get $X more if there’s an incident, whether you have to have higher insurance, a case where the test result made a difference, whether things like future negative tests can mitigate impact? And in case it needs to be said, I’m 100% against people being impaired on the job (be it from pot, alcohol, legally-prescribed drugs, or sleep-deprivation.)

    1. blackcat*

      1) Do you absolutely need the drug screen?
      2) Can you do a drug screen that does not screen for weed?

    2. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      In situations where there’s equipment/machinery/vehicle use, it’s generally an insurance thing. But I’m not sure why your legal counsel wouldn’t just say that if it was the case.

      We are also a drug-free workplace. We don’t pre-screen or randomly test, but rather reserve the right to test if we suspect on-the-job use. It’s kind of a moot point for what you say above – thc will stay in your system for MONTHS. But we also have no heavy machinery or driving required roles, so we’re not trying to insure anyone for that.

    3. Alexandra Lynch*

      Is there a way to make it clear on the application that you’ll need to be able to pass a drug test as a condition for employment?

      My ex was a trucker, and was meticulous about never being exposed to pot smoke because he could get hauled out of the cab and tested at any time, and, given the length of time cannabis stays in the system, he didn’t dare smoke on weekends.

      Current boyfriend is in IT, and works at a company where they test everyone because the forktruck drivers on the dock can’t be impaired at work. So he very meticulously went off cannabis while job searching, peed clean, and now manages the stress of what the f- did someone do to this code with a judicious amount of pot outside of work. This is, I understand, not at all unusual in IT.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Better yet – most office-type federal government positions do not drug test.

        Slowly but surely, it’s becoming more acceptable. I know quite a few executives and tech folks who smoke on their own time or the weekends. It doesn’t appear to impair their ability one whit to do their jobs.

  116. WellRed*

    Did anyone else see the Dear Prudence letter this week about the coworker who wanted to be called by her cutesy, childish nickname? Brought shades of the master letter to mind for me.

        1. Liane*

          Yes it was Dumpling. But at least she wasn’t adding, “And you better call my SO Master Cupcakes!”

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Yeah, that was an interesting one! It felt like the kind of thing that really walks a fine line — the courtesy of calling someone what they want to be called, versus not using a cutesy nickname that’s clearly office-inappropriate. It actually made me think of the Mrs. Stark letter more than the ‘Master’ one, and I feel like my upshot would be similar. If she really wants to go by Dumplin’, that’s her prerogative and you don’t get to rename her, but it’s worth having a talk with her about professional presentation and what the cost of using a nickname like that would be.

      1. Approval is optional*

        The issue of making a judgement about someone’s professionalism because of their name is interesting for sure. I admit that I had a knee-jerk twitch of bias against what I’ll loosely call ‘childish’ names in the workplace (for both men and women), and that I had to actively work at putting the bias aside.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yeah, agreed, and nicknames that would otherwise be prejudicial terms can make things especially murky. On the one hand, call people by their preferred names, on the other hand, some terms are really not appropriate in the office.

        2. Kes*

          I don’t know, I think there is a difference between asking people to call you by your name or a nickname related to your name, and asking people to call you by a random nickname that is more a term of affection – the latter is weird and kind of inappropriate to me, because you aren’t normally affectionate with your coworkers by default

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Yeah, this is where I fall too. In general, call people what they want to be called — but if it’s not their actual name and it has a meaning already, pretending like the meaning suddenly stops existing seems… odd to me.

            It think it also matters a fair bit what the context of the job is. For better or for worse, the more formal the job, the more it’s worth discussing with her what the implications are. Lawyer? Have that talk. Personal trainer? Ehh, it’s probably fine.

      2. Washi*

        I agree. It’s hard to say for sure without knowing the name, because I would try very hard to avoid calling a coworker certain things (cutie patootie comes to mind), but I would probably acquiesce if it were literally Dumplin.

        I would also want to think about how to make sure any clients/other external stakeholders didn’t think I was just being overly familiar with my coworker!

        1. Approval is optional*

          I worked with someone with a ‘Dumpling’ type name. I would tell clients etc at the first meeting that our Llama Wrangler Dumpling Smith would be their contact, or say I’d like you to meet our LlWran Dumpling Smith (or our Llama Wrangler Mary or John Smith – best to have the same practice for everyone). After that I don’t recall problems with just using her first name in front of them.

      3. Reba*

        I agree with this, and I disagreed with Prudie’s advice! I think he should have told the LW to examine their own discomfort and feeling that the nickname is demeaning (!). Biases and cultural differences are likely in play and it’s worth considering those factors.

        It also depends on what the name *is*, of course, because what is “clearly office-inappropriate”? “Dumplin” is … strange, but not offensive or overly intimate, IMO. If someone’s actual given name is cutesy or childlike (I knew someone named Pumpkin growing up), is their name inherently unprofessional?

        The other thing is that you get used to it. (Unless you are regularly making a stink about it (; )I used to work with someone who goes by “Bunny” — her given name is hard for Americans to pronounce and she got annoyed by attempts — and after a while, that was just her name.

        1. WellRed*

          So, I feel like nicknames that are borne out of a natural affection, family or friends in-joke, are kind of ick when used by others. One of my childhood nicknames is Ter-Bear. I am actually called this by one long term friend still and love it. I think it would be bizarre and inappropriate to want to be called that by coworkers.

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            Gah, yes. Plus, I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to discipline someone at work using what is clearly an affectionate nickname.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Cultural differences may be in play, but syrupy-affectionate terms used toward women in the office to belittle them is absolutely a thing that has a history and an implication that’s still pretty active. I don’t think the additional meanings of a term vanish when it’s someone’s nickname.

          As a counterpoint, a male friend of mine has for a long time had a nickname that’s growing increasingly unacceptable in the public sphere as a pejorative term. Is it a name that’s used in an absolutely non-demeaning way toward him? Yeah, it’s affectionate and friendly. But it’s still not something appropriate for an office. It’s still a demeaning term in our society.

    5. Reliquary*

      When I read that letter, the first thing that came to mind was that I have an old friend who has a food-related nickname.(Okay, it’s “Cookie.”) She’s been called by that name since she was a child. Her actual first name is of European origin, and sounds very formal in English. But that’s not how or why she got the nickname. The nickname was actually originally her father’s. He died when she was young, and she inherited his nickname.

      I know that for many folks today, “Cookie” might seem like a diminutive female-gendered name. But it used to be a common nickname for Army cooks, and for immigrant men from Cookie’s dad’s country of origin. So while this name might sound “feminine-diminutive” to some ears, to others, it’s not necessarily the case at all.

      I can certainly understand Daniel’s advice, and the LW’s discomfort with using the name, but I disagreed with both of them because they overlooked possible cultural context. I would have advised the LW to use the woman’s name, and to stop being judgmental, because her premise might be completely mistaken.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        I worked with a woman, who’s actually name IS Cookie. Legally. Right on her birth certificate.

        In this day and age, where you can name your baby Tractor Pull Blu Roxy or Sparkle Diatom Beach Sand, does it even matter if some wants to be call Biscuit, Dumplin’ or Ribs?

        I went to school (1970s) with Bambi, Buffy, Taffy, Tigger, a zillion Kirks, and all sorts of other hippie dippy stoner names.

        At the end of the day, if the nick name isn’t considered profanity, I’d just roll with it. I might give a pause on something like Sweet Cheeks, and ask if it can be either Sweet or just Cheeks.

        1. valentine*

          For me, even Sweet Cheeks would eventually be no different from Alex. Some people have slurs for names and one of my languages has a slur that’s a name in another language, so, Dumpling would be a relief.

    6. LilySparrow*

      I have known adults IRL whose actual given names at birth were Dimples, Lacy, and Peaches. So unless I had specific context that Dumplin was for sure a nickname, I’d probably assume it was a real name.

      (Lacy and Peaches were older men, FWIW.)

  117. Purrsnikitty*

    So… I messed up today.

    TL;DR: I pointed out a (distant) colleague’s translation mistakes by e-mail and got told off

    I received a company-wide e-mail about a minor topic, in both English and my native language. I found the English part not horrible, but definitely quirky for something sent to so many people, including possibly native English speakers. And it was really just two sentences, so the mistake ratio was rather high. We’re talking bad tense, and some word-by-word translation that didn’t sound good to me. Of note: this came from someone in the company I do not know personally. No capital whatsoever to spend in a sense. The person is not a higher up, neither am I.

    I tried to think of what I would have written, then checked with Google Translate. I got pretty much what I had in mind and was even impressed that Google avoided some easy traps, though not all.

    Aaaand… then I pondered whether I should let the poster know. And I ended up replying (I did *not* Reply-All — that would be downright evil/stupid). I tried to be as nice as I could and underline how I meant no ill and offered my translation and a hint towards Google Translate for any future difficulties (are you cringing yet?). The reply I got was sarcastically formal, thanking me for pointing this out, explaining how language training was sadly not budgeted anymore, and offering me to come and train them. It actually took me a while to *really* be sure this was sarcastic and not my own fears coloring the message.

    I gave this a good thinking and, out of many scenarios, I decided to simply send an apology in return. Gosh it’s hard to not be sarcastic back, or try to add humor, or try to defend and justify yourself. But I could tell I was just trying to protect my own feelings, so I gave up adding any extras.

    Anyway, this is done, but I would like to know whether there was any redeeming value to my action (who knows…), and if pointing out someone’s mistake is just a big no-no, or if there’s a right way to do it? Clearly I won’t feel like sharing my opinion on such things for a while, but in case I get the urge again later, I’d rather know what to (not?) do.

    For further context, I tend to think I’m pretty good with English (and am often told so, including by native speakers) and I do practice it every day. I also tend to think my fellow countrymen can be at odds with English and I often feel like they’re not trying — which is most certainly a prejudice of mine. In this instance, I don’t think my intentions were to brag. Rather, I felt like the English used for the company-wide message would give a poor opinion of the company and ricochet onto its employees, including me. So I guess I felt shame? Heck, I might have gone Superman syndrome on this one, unsollicited “helping” and all that.

    1. Pam Beesly*

      I mean…it’s not great what you did. Additionally, the fact that she is a distant colleague makes it a bit worse. Based on her response, it sounds like she is probably already aware of her not-perfect translation, and does not have the resources to improve upon this. Also, considering this was a company-wide email, her manager also received the email, and would address her about the mistakes if he/she deemed it necessary.

      I apologize if I’m making assumptions, but is it possible you actually responded to her email to show her your wealth or knowledge, rather than to actually help her? I just wonder since you say that you “tend to think [you’re] pretty good with email.” That is of course something to be proud of considering it’s not your negative language. However, I just wonder what your true intentions were in emailing her. I can’t think of any reason you’d think this was a good idea considering you do not manage this person, nor do you know her well.

      I’m glad you seemingly recognized your mistake though.

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        About “distant colleague = worse”, could you elaborate? I intuitively agree but I struggle to understand why I also think so. Is it culturally more acceptable to correct someone you’re close with? I suppose it is, though I’m still unsure why.

        You might be right about her own self-awareness on the issue. Which makes my action even worse since it just rubbed salt in the wound :|
        Didn’t think about the manager at all. Might be part of the problem. My own manager is very hands-off and I realize that I almost never think my colleagues have someone actually taking care of them and who does decide for the company what’s okay and what’s not. I’ll have to keep that in mind.

        As to my true intentions, I’d say I’m not even 100% sure myself. I think it’s a knee-jerk reflex at that point. I recognize a mistake and I want to correct it (bit of a perfectionist). Maybe I also feel frustrated because I rarely use the skill at work. Once we had to work with a team from London and I was delighted to be able to use my English in a work environment. It’s just that it’s rare because the rest of my department finds it frustrating. They officially decided not to work with British people because “urh, so much English!” That cracking sound is my eyes rolling back way too far inside my skull.
        And finally, Superman syndrome. I want to feel useful and recognized, and in the moment it seemed like maybe this was a way to be so. Couple that with the fact I have a hard time keeping to my assigned responsabilities and… yeah.

        Well, if anything, I now have a few pointers as to what to work on. Thanks!

    2. Colette*

      That wasn’t great. One of the things I also struggle with is not correcting someone who I know is wrong. But ultimately, it’s not my job, and it’s not yours, either. If it were someone you worked with, you could offer to proofread before they send something like that out, but this is someone you don’t know. I’m learning French, and … it would be pretty devastating if I worked hard on saying something and had someone pick it apart unasked. So replying was a mistake.

      But people make mistakes, and it’s more important to learn from them. In this case, the lesson is to understand when corrections are appropriate (for example, when you are someone’s manager, when someone asks, or when you are in a job where you are responsible for communication) and when they are not (when none of those situations apply).

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        You’re right! I have often struggled with keeping to my assigned area. I used to manage up a lot until I realized it didn’t improve anything and just made my manager frustrated with me.
        “Unasked” might be key. I usually hold it in with non-native French speakers, adapt any critique to their current level and ask if they want any critique to begin with. And yet here I did not apply this caution. I guess I hold my fellow Frenchies to a higher standard…
        Oh, um, yeah, I’m French. I’m not helping with our usual cliché, am I?

    3. Washi*

      I used to work in a bilingual office, and the urge to correct people came up all the time. I just tried to keep in mind that work is very function oriented, and on internal stuff, if someone’s translation was functional and understandable, that was most likely good enough, even if it wasn’t technically correct.

      It’s kind of a corollary to how sometimes senior execs send the most casual, poorly written emails, because they just need to get the point across and have seniority to not bother with the niceties.

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        The thought crossed my mind afterwards: “Sure there are mistakes but it’s understandable…” It did not need to be perfect but in the moment it felt like it had to be? I might have to apply the “let it cool down first” rule. If I had waited a day or so, I might have just gone “eh, not worth it” instead.

    4. CheeryO*

      So obviously that wasn’t ideal, but they also didn’t need to be sarcastic in their response. I got a reply-all last week with a pedantic correction, and I just rolled my eyes and filed it away for the future. Learn from it, don’t do it again, and try not to worry about it too much.

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        Eh, mistake for mistake I guess. Plus, I get the feeling the sarcasm helped in making me feel bad about it, so it might have been necessary :)

    5. CAA*

      I agree that your English is very good. From your writing here, I would not have known you’re not a native speaker. However, I think you can give those of us who are native speakers a bit more credit. We are very used to reading “quirky” English from our multi-lingual colleagues and in most cases it really does not impede communication. In fact, I’d say many of us who are monolingual admire people like you and your colleagues who have made the effort to attain near fluency in our language and don’t think it reflects poorly on the you or the company if an internal message has a few grammatical errors or poor word choices. As long as the meaning in English is clear, you should refrain from providing unasked for assistance in translating; especially for a message that’s already been sent.

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        You make a good point. It *was* understandable, just quirky. My reaction reflects my own take on this. Somehow, I feel like if you’re going to use someone else’s language, you should do your utmost to speak/write it well. That’s my perfectionist side. The side effect is that when someone speaks it quirkily, my first thought is “they’re lazy/disrespectful”, even though the rational part of my brain understands it might just be that they’re beginners, not at ease with foreign languages and any not-their-fault reason one can think of. And as you point out, having learned even the basics of the language and reaching a point where you can be understood is… actually quite a bit of respect/effort already.

    6. sacados*

      You messed up, but it’s small. I also worked in a bilingual office where English was the minority language and even among people who spoke it only a handful were actually native speakers. So I saw this kind of thing A. LOT. And it was on occasion physically painful to read certain translations. So I sympathize.

      The two key things are that this was a minor issue, and that it was a company internal email (yes sent to the whole company, but still only internal and not any clients or vendors or customers). So in a situation like that, it’s best to recognize that it’s not super important and as long as the meaning is being conveyed accurately you should let it go. It’s similar to past AAM letters about someone correcting typos or grammar on an internal memo or meeting agenda– not something that rises to the level of needing to be corrected.
      But you have two pluses going for you here– you didn’t reply all, and the sender is not a person who you actually work or interact with. You already apologized, so I would say just learn from it and move on. If you do end up having to interact with this person again, just pretend it never happened and be professional/polite.

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        Yup, I blew it out of proportions :/
        It’s interesting that you think it’s a plus that she was not a “close” colleague. Someone else commented to the contrary. What’s your take on this?

        1. sacados*

          Sorry, kind of late, not sure if you will see this, but just in case —
          My take is that, if this was someone you worked with on a daily basis then it’s possible you would need to do something more to smooth things over — it would be more important to preserve a cordial working relationship with the person.
          But in this case it’s much easier to just let it go and assume that by the next time you actually are interacting with the person, everyone will have forgotten about the whole thing (or will just decide to pretend to have forgotten).

          1. Purrsnikitty*

            Aah, I see! In the same way it’s less important to look stupid in front of random strangers you will never see again :)

    7. CM*

      There’s an interesting line in this post where you say, “I felt like the English used for the company-wide message would give a poor opinion of the company and ricochet onto its employees, including me.”

      Not to psychoanalyze you, but it’s possible that you’ve internalized the idea that you’re going to be rejected if you fumble with your words in English — which can be a reasonable thing to believe, because people are assholes sometimes. It might explain why you had such a strong reaction to reading your colleague’s email and launched into action like it was an emergency — you assumed that they were going to get rejected and it poked your fear that you would be rejected.

      I could be totally wrong. But it’s worth asking yourself why you had such a strong reaction.

      1. Purrsnikitty*

        I think you’re very close to the mark! As I replied to someone else, I tend to think speaking near-perfectly is akin to respect to the native speakers. It’s like… if I don’t do at least that much, I’m not worthy or something?

        But I think the real (or at least bigger) problem is elsewhere: in spite of this, I tend to be fine with most people not speaking perfectly because I can see them struggling and trying. In this instance, though, I somehow assumed that the person was not trying? And there’s *no* justification for that. There was no clue whatsoever towards this. I just hope it was just a “weird mood” thing or a case of silly assumptions because of the e-mail/text medium rather than something deeper…

        1. valentine*

          I don’t see why it was wrong to point it out, but I would’ve flagged it for my manager, not the colleague. It’s not acceptable that someone paid to translate doesn’t do as well as, and, worse, refuses to use, Google Translate.

  118. Not Desperate for the Job*

    Leaving a job on relatively good note is a very weird experience. All my stuff is officially out–I’m leaving behind a small flock of paper cranes on my desk. XD

    1. Colette*

      I’d say it is to communicate a certain image. Want to communicate you’re businesslike and formal? Make the dress code suits. Want to communicate that you’re informal and casual? Everyone wears jeans.

    2. merp*

      IMO? Barring those who are less likely to be familiar with what’s considered professional, or to have the cash to acquire those things – so, your general classism. Maybe it serves a purpose, I’m open to ideas… but for the most part, I land on the fact that one’s appearance has no impact on their ability to do a job (except in certain cases, like you’ve noted) so it’s just another norm that excludes people.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        As Collette and Brazilian Hobbit suggest, there are good reasons to have a dress code.

        In addition to their points, a written code increases the chances it will be applied equally across the board.

        And not all written dress codes adhere to the suit-and-tie type dress you seem to be describing. For example, my place of work is a fairly distinguished, professional organization in our field. Our dress code allows us to wear T-shirts, jeans, hoodies, etc. Those would only be a problem if they had holes, were clearly dirty, etc. which doesn’t strike me as particularly classist.

      2. Out of Retail*

        Coming here to say this. Business casual *is* about image, and the image is a thing because of classism. Jeans were originally designed as hard wearing work pants (I think this is correct? I don’t have citations) so they have connotations of physical labor, even years later when most of the jeans you buy would NOT stand up to much abuse. Suits have always been a status thing.

    3. Brazilian Hobbit*

      It really depends. For my current office, it was making sure people were dresses appropriately. We used to not have one, but then people started showing up in clothes in which people could see parts of their bodies nobody wants to see (think very low pants for men and very low cleavage for women, and high heels which would make work on the field unsafe), and our job is such that we can get called to visit a client on short notice, so he changed the dress code for normal-waist (this does not sound right, but I can’t find the right term in English right now)jeans and T-shirts with trainers or flats. We hire a lot of people on their first professional job, so there’s that.

  120. alacrity*

    What job sites do people use? I know of indeed and monster, but I recently came across employementcrossing[.]com and while it looks like it may have a lot of positions in my field they also apparently want to charge $40/month to access their list. Is this something that’s worthwhile or basically a scam?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      DO NOT EVER pay for a job listing list. Ever. They make their money from people posting on them, not from job seekers if they’re legit.

      They are of course making it look like you need to unlock those treasure jobs! Yeah no. Scam.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Companies already pay to post their job listings with job sites. If I were a company paying to list my job, I’d be pissed if the candidates were also being charged to see my ad. There is no company with a legit job who’s paying another company to post on a secret list. The whole point of paying a company to display your job listing is to actually display it. You want candidates to see the listing and apply.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Exactly!

          I get the feeling these aren’t actually job postings an employer is paying That Site to post specifically, like you do on Indeed or Monster or even Craigslist. It’s probably a computer program that farms from every other website and then creates a list that they’re trying to hock to desperate job searchers.

  121. Wild Impala*

    This happened at my old job but it still bothers me sometimes. I would love to know how you folks would handle it.

    How do you deal with a coworker who keeps bringing up a mistake you made that inconvenienced them, even though you’ve apologised many times?

    I was the office manager, and a coworker who had been away on a work trip was coming back to the office that night directly from the airport to retrieve something of his that he needed to have on his next (non-work) trip the following day. For the life of me I can’t recall what that item was, but it must have been important enough that he was willing to make a trip to the office from the airport for it. The only reason he told me about it was that I needed to be informed if people were coming into the office after work hours, even if I wasn’t going to be there.

    As luck would have it, towards the very end of that day, the lock on the office door malfunctioned, and work passes were rendered temporarily unusable. I was assured by the security company that the lock and work passes would be functional again by the next morning, so I didn’t bother telling my coworkers about it as everyone had already left the office.

    That night, I received irate emails from that coworker because he could not enter the office. I’d totally forgot about him! He claimed to have called my phone too, but I saw no missed calls. (Turned out he’d mistyped one digit of my number.) But even if the calls had gone through, there was nothing I could have done. It was 11pm, I was at home, and I couldn’t enter the office even if I tried. I emailed back to explain the situation to him and apologise, and he didn’t reply.

    I didn’t see him until about a week later when he got back from his second trip. He threw me a dirty look and again asked me how could I forget to inform him, he came from the airport all tired just to get it, and he couldn’t enter the office. And on and on and on. I understood his frustration and told him so, and admitted that I forgot about our arrangement and apologised profusely, to which he just shook his head.

    For the next week or so, he continued to say the same thing to me, until I…finally kinda snapped and said to him, “Look, man, I know my mistake caused you time and money, but it was an honest mistake for which I’ve apologised to you many times. What else can I do to atone for it? Will you tell me?” He was taken aback by my speech and said nothing. But he never brought it up again.

    So yeah, I was just wondering if you guys would have done the same thing, or something else, and perhaps sooner? I’m in a people-related position again at my new job and I just wanted to know what to do should something similar happen here.

    Thanks for any input.

    1. ChimericalOne*

      Sounds to me like you handled it reasonably well. Not sure what your tone was when you “snapped,” but you said directly what you needed to say and without unnecessary insult, and it had the desired effect: it made him think about what he was doing & stop. Doesn’t sound like it was a recurring thing, so IMO, you’re good & shouldn’t let this keep you up at night. :)

      1. Wild Impala*

        I didn’t raise my voice but I sounded kinda weary (cuz I was) and at the same time firm and unequivocal. Thank you. You’re right, I should no longer let this keep me up at night, especially since this happened two years ago!

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          A weary tone seems quite reasonable and professional, in response to his badgering you when you already apologized in what I’m assuming was a sincere tone. None of this “I’m happy to apologize to anyone who was actually offended” business (unrelated LGBTQ+ related news piece, I’m not bitter about that person at all).

          1. valentine*

            The onus was on him to confirm with you before you left for the day. You can also put up a Post-It or a phone alarm to remind yourself of this kind of thing, though the bizarre lack of access isn’t likely to happen again.

            What was so important, Rx rash cream?

    2. irene adler*

      I’m not seeing fault on your part. Co-worker kept bringing up the topic-even though you explained the situation. And apologized. What more does he want from you-a kidney? I think he wanted to see how far he could push things before you snapped. Not okay.

    3. Qwerty*

      I don’t see anything wrong with what you said. It sounds like he got caught in a loop and you gave him perspective. Asking “what else can I do?” was a good way to go in case there was something specific he was looking for and also because it made him realize that at this point there’s nothing else that you *can* do. Sometimes people get caught up in their troubles and need to be nudged out of their headspace.

  122. Time Lord*

    I’m in my first job after college, and I am one of several people who assist various project managers with their projects. I’m having trouble getting used to accepting or rejecting work based on what I can get done in 8 hours a day, rather than taking as much or as little time as I need to do everything assigned to me, like I did in school. At work, I often get asked “How much time do you have available?” or “How many hours will you spend on x project?” and… I don’t know? I don’t have enough experience to know how long something will take me until I’m pretty far into it. The project managers try to keep me in 40 hours a week of billable work, without overloading me too much, but they rely on me to say how much time I have and I just don’t know how to answer.

    Do y’all think this is something I’ll just get better at with experience? Or does anyone have any specific strategies for accepting 40 hours worth of work and no more? Thanks in advance for the advice!

    1. CAA*

      Yes, you will get better at estimating as you gain experience, especially if the tasks you are taking on are repetitive. You can speed up the process by keeping good records of how long things take you and making an effort to create analogies between new work and something you’ve done before, so you can say to yourself “it took me 7 hours to write the client status report for project x last week, but now that I know what questions to ask everyone and where to find the template, I think I can do this week’s report for project y in 5 hours.” Then you write that estimate down and later you write down the actual time spent and compare them and use that information to adjust future estimates.

      For new work you’ve never done before, you can ask the PM how long it would take her to accomplish the task she’s assigning to you, and then double that estimate.

      You can also try to break down tasks into smaller increments and add those together. If you have to update 100 records, then rather than thinking about the whole project, think about how long it takes to update 1 record, multiply by 100 and add a fudge factor of 20% or so, because some of them are going to be more complicated than you expect.

    2. Llellayena*

      Until you get better at estimating time (it does get better, I promise) when someone asks how much time you have available, give them the amount of time you think you have and quick rundown of what’s currently on your plate and when it’s planned to be done by and ask “does that sound right on my timing estimates?”. If you’re way off base on your time estimating, they’ll probably help correct you. That will help you learn the time estimating too because you’re getting outside input instead of relying only on your tracking and memory. You’ll also get a flag if you need to speed up some tasks and you’ll look proactive for trying to find out and improve!

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      This is the toughest thing about billable working. It really is just experience. You can speed up the learning a little by tracking how long it takes to do particular tasks and by breaking tasks down into subtasks and estimating in advance and tracking it during. Use a spreadsheet.

      When you realize in the middle it’s going to take longer than you thought, communicate that! That’s useful info for your boss.

  123. You can call me flower, if you want to*

    My brother-in-law and I had a disagreement this week. He refers to the admins in his office as the “admin ladies”. My mother-in-law and I said the term is kind of sexist and condescending and just why ladies? Why not admin team? The aren’t ladies who lunch. Why even bring gender into this? He thinks we are wrong and overreacting. What do you guys think?

      1. valentine*

        It is sexist and condescending.
        So is “ladies who lunch.”

        Whenever he says ladies, reply, “Hey, ladies!” I hear a DJ voice, but even telethon Jerry should work to make the term grate for BIL.

    3. House Tyrell*

      Yeah that’s sexist (also, if every single admin is a woman, maybe his office should examine that.)

    5. SarahKay*

      Assuming all the admin staff in his office are women, I can kind of see why he thinks he’s okay, as technically he’s just describing them. BUT: that doesn’t mean he’s actually right in thinking that it’s okay.
      If they are all women, then there’s no reason to add a gender – it’s not like he needs to distinguish between the male and female admins for whatever it is he’s saying.
      Plus, if they’re all women, why is that? Is it that sexist language or assumptions are (however inadvertently) coming in to play in the recruiting process?
      Finally, the more he describes them as “admin ladies” the more he’s creating the impression, at some level, for them and everyone who hears him, that admin is a woman’s job. By doing so, he’s contributing to the endless drip drip drip effect of subtle sexism that already surrounds us all.

    7. Qwerty*

      He doesn’t see it because he hasn’t been on the other side of this. It doesn’t feel wrong to him, but he doesn’t have an actual argument to support using the phrase, so he just feels frustrated at being called out.

      Workplaces tend to point out their “ladies”. The default assumption is that the workers are male, and when there is a female, she gets the lady label attached to her role. I commonly hear women identified as “QA lady”, “design lady”, “girl developer”, whereas the men are called “tester”, “designer”, “developer” without mentioning gender

      1. WellRed*

        maybe this is dependent on industry? I’ve never heard any of these “lady” descriptors. We do however, have a web guy.

    8. Lady Kelvin*

      Yeah your BIL is wrong. We call our admin the admin because…wait for it…they aren’t all women. Its 2019, we don’t need to specify the gender of our coworkers because anyone can be anything.

  124. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

    Would you dress/groom any more nicely than usual for a Webex interview? I have one next week and am not sure how much this matters…

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I would. Even if it’s a no-camera webex, being dressed up and pulled together impacts how you comport yourself. Wear your battle armor!

    3. blackcat*

      For one at an awkward time for me (6pm pacific, 9pm eastern, where I am), I totally wore a nice blouse and suit jacket… and pajama bottoms.

  125. Cats Unlimited*

    How do you know when it’s time to start looking for a new job?

    During performance evals I got a “needs improvement” and was put on a PIP unofficially. I agree that I need to improve but I was blindsided by some the reasons I was given. I wasn’t able to get much specific information about what I was doing wrong. I am trying to improve but I feel like I keep making the same mistakes that led to my poor performance. I don’t know if I can turn it around as I never had a lot of confidence in my abilities anyway. Mentally I feel like giving up. This is also compounded by the fact that I was visible depressed for months, I know for fact that my co-workers noticed and not one person asked me if I was ok.

    I like the field that I work in but it isn’t easy to find other similar jobs. I might do better in a field where I could focus on one thing at a time, but my skills are pretty niche to my current job. Looking for a new job would likely mean moving to another state, which has pros and cons. But I was also planning to go back to school and I need an employer to pay for it. I had been vaguely thinking about looking for a new job even before evals. I just feel like everything is up in the air.

    1. Colette*

      Try to turn it around, and look at the same time. You’re not happy there, and you may not be able to stay even if you want to.

      Start by thinking about what you like doing (generally), and what you are good at. What would you go back to school for? Are there jobs you can get that would be closer to what you want to do that would not involve school?

      1. Cats Unlimited*

        I guess I don’t know how to find a job closer to what I want. I like the technical side of my job, but I am not good at the softer side like juggling multiple priorities, working as a team,etc. I probably have to go back to school at some point for the higher salary. There is some one in my office who has what I consider to be the perfect job. (get paid six figures to sit in the corner by yourself and not talk to anyone? Yes please!). That job would require significantly more education and I am not sure if it is common for someone in that position to be sequestered from everyone else or if that’s just a quirk of my office.

        And honestly I have tried in the past to make a list of what I am good at and it is a very short list. I have meaning to seek mental help for a while but I just don’t seem to be able to follow through with it.

        1. Colette*

          What is one thing you could do today that would start you down the road to where you want to be? Could you make an appointment with a therapist? Could you make an appointment with someone you’ve worked with who knows your skills and could help you figure it out?

          If you can do one thing, that might help.

        2. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

          I think I’ve gotten the most insights into what I want to do by professional development–podcasts, YouTube, conferences when I can swing them. I notice what aspects of my professional realm excite me when I learn more about them and that has helped me find my focus.

          As for your current job, yeah, why not start looking? Being on a PIP is no fun and if you aren’t crazy in love with your job, it would be great to start with a fresh rep somewhere else! But knowing what to apply to is important.

  126. miho*

    Would you leave a job after just four months?

    tl;dr: I am four months into my first permanent FT position after graduate school, but it’s become apparent to me that I am overqualified and underutilized in this position. The only tasks I am assigned are data entry, scheduling meetings, tracking RSVPs for events. I don’t have much autonomy/independent decision-making opportunities/ownership of projects in my position. I can literally feel my brain turning into mush and my productivity slipping away, because I am not being utilized or challenged in this position. My professional skills aren’t growing – in fact, I feel like they’re regressing.

    Longer version:
    I went straight from undergrad to grad school, and graduated with my master’s in 2017. I’ve held several prestigious internships while in school. After my master’s graduation, I took on temp job #1 for nine months. I excelled in the temp position and was offered a FT permanent role with the company, but I declined as I found the office environment too toxic and dysfunctional (in fact, several of the FT colleagues told me not to take the job). I then worked at temp position #2 with a different organization until I landed my current FT position.

    I’ve been in my current position for four months, and I feel so underutilized. The only tasks I am given are data entry, tracking RSVPs for upcoming events, assembling mass mailings (i.e. putting stamps envelopes, dropping them at the post office), and scheduling meetings. I don’t mind doing tedious or mundane tasks, though I wish my tasks weren’t just limited to these responsibilities.

    My manager also claims that she’s not a micromanager, but I’ve found that she can be quite overbearing. For example, she put me in charge of corresponding with a specific client, but she had to read and approve every email I wrote to the client prior to sending. She even re-wrote majority of my emails completely (although to be fair, her emails sounded far more eloquent than mine).

    In general, I’ve found, from time and time again, that I’m given no autonomy or independent decision making opportunities in this position. Every little thing requires approval from my managers. I’ve talked to the person who held this position before me (she has now moved onto a different role within the company), and she told me that she had experienced the same issues.

    The upside is that I get along with the team and other colleagues really well, and I feel that my personality fits in with this work environment. But I’ve also had uncomfortable moments with my managers, where they (somewhat jokingly) said, “Oh, I hope you don’t leave us too soon!” or “Oh, I was so scared you were going to tell me you wanted to quit. We want you to stay!” These statements were a bit funny and reassuring to hear at first (yay, they want me), but at this point, I am starting to become skeptical. I suspect my managers are aware that I am overqualified for the position and that I am unfulfilled.

    My friends are encouraging me to start job searching again, but truthfully, I am terrified of leaving after just 4 months. My resume thus far has already been a bit spotty – just a string of internships and 2 temp positions. Should I stick it out for a full year?

    1. Colette*

      First of all, there are many jobs where you won’t get autonomy or independent decision making right out of school – and having your manager review client correspondence is not unusual for an entry level employee (and does not make your manager a micromanager).

      Do you have enough work to fill your days? If not, you can ask for more work, or for longer-term projects. But work doesn’t exist for your fulfillment – it exists so that the work gets done.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, it sounds like…. an entry level job. I understand that it is boring, but you also are coming across in this post as if it is totally beneath you, and I wonder if that attitude is apparent at work, and maybe that is behind the higher-ups’ comments about you being ready to leave.

        Although you say your skills are slipping, you also gave an example of pretty good learning you are doing — your boss’s editing of your emails.

        Have you had a conversation with your boss about growth potential? In the role or in the company in other positions?

        Is the job very very different from what was discussed in your hiring process? Try to get a sense of whether this kind of role is a normal starting out one for your field.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Although you say your skills are slipping, you also gave an example of pretty good learning you are doing — your boss’s editing of your emails.

          I echo what Reba says, that this is a good example that you should be leaning into. OP, you say that you recognize the emails are better after your boss edits them. What you’ve written suggests the reason your work is being checked is because your work needs to be checked. It’s not up to the standard that the organization needs yet.

          I would recommend asking your manager to walk you through where your work quality and professionalism need to be to have more autonomy.

          1. valentine*

            you recognize the emails are better after your boss edits them.
            One thing you can do is learn to write like her. The closer to her style you get, the more she’ll trust you with that piece.

            But you sound ready to go and eight more months aren’t likely to leave you better off.

    2. Ella Vader*

      ” I’ve also had uncomfortable moments with my managers, where they (somewhat jokingly) said, “Oh, I hope you don’t leave us too soon!” or “Oh, I was so scared you were going to tell me you wanted to quit. We want you to stay!” These statements were a bit funny and reassuring to hear at first (yay, they want me), but at this point, I am starting to become skeptical. I suspect my managers are aware that I am overqualified for the position and that I am unfulfilled. ”

      So if your managers aren’t going to be direct about it, and you’re considering leaving anyway, I wonder if it might be worth trying to be more direct yourself. “What would you like me to learn to get better at this job? Are there things I could be working on so that I can be more valuable to you? What kinds of opportunities might be available here for me in the long run?” Also, are there ways you can see that the processes you follow might be improved, and are they at all receptive to your suggestions like this? “I noticed that you always create new folders for the contract documents when I give you the forms for a new teapot order. Would you like me to try creating the folders myself and filing the documents next time?”

      Is there any chance that someone in management currently perceives you as being not very good at your current tasks? If you can start conversations about what to work on, you might find that out. For example, if someone’s editing your emails to clients, that sometimes means that you should work on changing your writing to match more closely with their style.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yes! I agree with all of this comment. If this is your first full time job, it is possible there are some pieces of workplace norms or processes that you are not quite hitting the mark on. You might have higher level skills but are missing some of the basics.

        On the other hand, if you’re really not happy in the role, or you’re not getting good answers about what you would need to do to take on more responsibility, I don’t think it hurts to look for jobs. A job search can take a while, and I don’t think a 4 or 6 or 9 month stint on your resume right after grad school is going to hurt you if you are in your next position for a couple of year.

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      What’s your masters in? You say you are over qualified so what is it you are qualified to do? Maybe look for a job in whatever field your masters was in.

  127. designbot*

    I’ve commented a few times about my awful boss, but this week suddenly other people are starting to notice. Yesterday three separate people, both those he manages and those he collaborates with, hit breaking points of “how the heck do you get this guy to DO anything?” or “He says he’s going to do this but I’m getting every signal that it’s not really going to happen and what do I do???”
    I want to feel bad for them, but there’s a part of me that’s just relieved. Finally, I’m confirmed to be not crazy, it’s not just a personality clash, this is a Real Problem. I’d been gaslit on this long enough that I needed to hear that.

  128. nacho*

    Last week my office sent out an email about a bedbug infestation, saying they were closing down some parts of the office and shuffling people around until it was fixed. Supposedly, when my coworker heard this, he just signed out, logged off his computer, and left straight away. Would you do the same if your office had bedbugs, or would you stick it out?

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      Oh I don’t do illnesses or infestations. I’d be out. Bedbugs are a really serious thing and I would NOT be trusting anyone to not give them to me. I’d go home, boil myself in the shower, and work from home until it was resolved.

    2. Buttons*

      I would be out of there so fast. And would strip naked in my driveway and put my clothes right into a plastic garbage bag in the garage for a few weeks. No way am I going to take the chance of bringing bedbugs into my house.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I am generally really tolerant of such things, but bedbugs are a big “nope” for me. If they told me there were a bunch of spiders or fleas somewhere, I would stick it out. But I had bedbugs about 11 years ago and it cost me hundreds of dollars in laundry alone, plus I had to live out of trash bags for a very long time. There’s still residue from the bedbug killer stuff on one of my bookshelves because I’m convinced they’ll all come back even though I have moved three times since then.

      I do not fault your co-worker one bit for getting up and peace-ing out.

      1. Buttons*

        I got pantry moths infestation from an Etsy order, and they moved houses with us. Pantry moth eggs can live for around 200 days. So you go almost a full year without knowing if they are coming back or not! I think this time I have them beat, they didn’t come back this Spring. That was after I pulled everything out of every cabinet and drawer in my kitchen and either put it in the dishwasher or sprayed it with bleach and water. I washed every can in my pantry and threw away everything that couldn’t be washed. I sprayed the entire kitchen with hot bleach water, every door hinge, handle, screw, and in every single crack or space. b*&tards.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Holy smokes! Btw, do you know about food grade diatomaceous earth? You apply a fine dust with an applicator and it never evaporates, unlike bleach.

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If the coworker is in the area of the infestation, he likely already has them, so “nope-ing” out like that is a bit dramatic. Bed bugs are a terrible nuisance but not really a vector for disease the way fleas or mosquitos can be. I think of them more like lice. I would certainly take precautions and avoid the affected areas, or ask to work from home if possible, but I wouldn’t risk job abandonment over them.

    5. Nanobots*

      YUP! I don’t eff around with bedbugs. I would risk losing my job to avoid them. I had them once, and it was literally one of the worst experiences I’ve been through. I still get highly upset if I see a round bug near my bed or if I get itchy when sitting on soft surfaces.

    6. CAA*

      We brought bedbugs home from a trip to Switzerland just about a year ago, and I’m probably jinxing things by saying this, but I think our long nightmare is finally over — well mine anyway, DH is a non-reactor so he doesn’t even notice them.

      So if someone told me they were found in some part of the office and people who had worked in the infested areas would be moving their stuff into the non-infested areas, I’d be taking precautions like avoiding fabric chairs at the office; changing clothes in the garage and shaking out my hair after getting home from work; putting everything I wore to work through the wash ASAP. I also wouldn’t carry containers like briefcases, fabric lunch bags, or purses from one environment to the other, and if anything had to come into my home after being in the office, it would be thoroughly inspected first and heat treated if possible.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, there’s no just “we’re quarantining some areas” when it comes to bed bugs. They don’t respect your boundaries and a whiff of “they exist here” and I’m out.

      I had them a few years ago and it was mentally traumatic, it’s also expensive depending on the size of your home! It can be thousands of dollars if you have a large enough dwelling, plus all the laundry and prep work for the exterminators. Plus sometimes they have to come back and that’s more money.

      Also if your landlords can track it back to you, they can charge you for the damages. They can haunt you for a long time.

  129. Ella Vader*

    When someone is tasked with HR duties in a small company, what can they do to be better at that job? I see that there are non-credit continuing-education courses like “how to start a business” and “how to do your own books” – but I haven’t been able to find any courses like that as a quick start to labour law in our jurisdictions or best HR practices and how to convince the company owners they matter. Would I get enough out of a community-college credit course like Intro to HR as the first course in a sequence intended for a business administration diploma?

    1. Buttons*

      Would your company pay for you a membership in SHRM or another HR professional org? They offer you so many resources including templates, best practices, webinars, etc. Learn at Forbes also has a decent intro to Human Resources course you can take with a free 30-day trial. LinkedIn Learning and Udemy also have some. I hope this helps! Good luck!

      1. Ella Vader*

        Those are good ideas, thank you! Besides actually getting information and strategies, I also want something with enough authority behind it to say “this is what we have to do” and have my bosses take my word for it.

        1. Buttons*

          I would go with SHRM then. If I don’t know something I start there and see what best practices are, and it will also link you to studies.

    2. Norm*

      “how to convince the company owners they matter.”
      This is the only thing that you need to do, and also the hardest. Sure, check out the SHRM materials, that’s a good start, but in the final analysis, buy-in from the ownership is the only relevant component of a successful strategy. If they’ve never heard of SHRM, you have a lot of educating to do, and this will depend heavily on your EQ and social skills. Generalizations you read on the internet will be of some value, but I suggest that personalizing your approach, tailoring it to your specific circumstances, will be key to your success. Good luck to you!

  130. TemporarilyAnon*

    So my workplace just put out an email on workplace violence. They had a top 21 concerning behaviors list. The top one just says “mental health”, with no further explanation. There’s also several other things on the list that are also common symptoms of mental health issues. (e.g. “work issues” or “not sleeping well”, again with no further explanation).

    I don’t know how to take this. I’ve already been making very sure to keep my mental health stuff under wraps. I’ve never even wanted to hurt someone – but I’ve been accused of it before because people thought I was weird and I had a known mental health diagnosis. Even in one case by a psychiatrist who seemed more concerned with how different I was than anything else. To add on I do have some issues that aren’t really in the wheelhouse of your average mental health professional, and that plus certain other marginalized identities means just “get help” isn’t necessarily a simple or easy proposition.

    So this kind of thing honestly worries me. It’s definitely encouraging me to pretend nothing’s going on! I’m really thankful my workplace doesn’t ask for doctor’s notes or really question when I take time off for appointments, so long as I make up the time. But I’m still not particularly comfortable with a list that identifies people like me as potential shooters just for having mental health problems.

    1. bunniferous*

      If you get on reasonably well with your coworkers I would not give this another thought. And I do not know what your issues are but I know when I was dealing with depression and medicated I discovered quite a number of people I knew were in the same boat as me -once they found out I was medicated they talked to me about it.

      That said, we live in scary times just because there are those who do want to hurt others. Seems to me in the stories I have read the common denominator is anger, not weirdness in and of itself.

      1. TemporarilyAnon*

        Even anger doesn’t really help for me, honestly. A lot of my issues involved initial abuse being compounded by misdiagnosis and the subsequent dismissal of my reports of abuse based on the misdiagnosis. I went through a lot of very damaging mental health treatment. Trauma often doesn’t respond to depression or anxiety treatment anyway, and I wasn’t diagnosed until many years later after getting out of treatment long enough to be able to think outside of the box they’d put me in.

        So yes, I have a lot of anger. That doesn’t mean I want to hurt anyone. I do want to see mentally ill people not being stereotyped or simply dismissed by pushing them to “get help”. I also think that as a queer person that played a factor in negative outcomes for me, and I have concerns that bigotry in mental health care often isn’t addressed or seen as important when considering access to care.

        I think I’d be less concerned if I had a simple diagnosis like depression or anxiety. I feel like those are often more accepted than other issues are.

        1. bunniferous*

          Ok, I see what you mean. (Truth be told any of us who have had to deal with the mental health system more or less has to deal with anger. Some of us way more than others, true. )

          I really hate how mental health is dealt with in this country, period.

    2. AlsoAnon*

      They probably cut and pasted from an online article, the sources of which weren’t vetted. ExToxicJob HR used to send out similar emails and newsletters, as a cheap (free) way to say “we have a wellness program” or “we provide training against workplace violence.”

      I am so sorry you were sent this list. It is not indicative of a thoughtful approach to recognize and handle violent incidents (which should include resources and referrals). Please put your mind at rest and ignore this list.

      1. TemporarilyAnon*

        The sad thing is the list appears to come from the FBI. And I work for the government.

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      I’m not sure I understand. Your workplace sent out an Email basically saying that the following things are risk factors for workplace violence and included “mental health” “work issues” and “not sleeping well” in the list? Am I right?

      That’s… Kind of hilarious. And strange. And a bit scary. But also hilarious.

      They clearly haven’t a clue what they are talking about. Just ignore the email, I highly doubt anyone has read this email and taken it seriously.

  131. Friday*

    I’d like to hear people’s thoughts about this.

    It was the end of Friday on a long weekend so the office was almost empty. A coworker and I were talking about movies and he said he had an idea for a short film that incorporated unique camera angles/shots on the actors. He wanted to demonstrate, so he wanted to take a picture of me. I adamantly told him no, I don’t want him taking a picture of me. I’ll never forget that strong expression on his face that said he was not going to take no for an answer. So he took a picture of me while I just sat there not smiling. It made me feel uncomfortable.

    I guess my question for people is whether what he did was out-of-bounds or not, and do you think my discomfort is justified?

    I’m a woman.

    1. Yods*

      I hate pictures and you have my sympathy – taking a picture after you’ve expressly asked him not to is gross.

    2. Buttons*

      I guess my question for people is whether what he did was out-of-bounds or not, and do you think my discomfort is justified?
      Yes, and yes. You told him not to take your photo, and he still did it! That isn’t ok. I am sorry that happened. What did he say while taking your photo? Did he delete the photo?

    3. SarahKay*

      Yes, it’s out of bounds, and in your place I would be livid. I had a similar argument with a co-worker on a group evening out, and ended up putting my hand directly blocking his phone – and can feel all the irritation I felt then bubbling up again today!
      He wants to show you clever camera angles, he can jolly well do it using an empty chair.

    4. ChimericalOne*

      This was extremely out-of-bounds — and bizarre — and if I were you, I’d tell my boss. You shouldn’t have to put up with a coworker photographing you without your consent. It’s extremely creepy and he needs to be told to never do that again.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes. Be prepared that the coworker, and maybe the boss, will say it’s no big deal, just a photo, but make it clear that you said “No” and told him to stop very clearly and he ignored you and did the thing anyway. It’s “just a photo” of you that you didn’t agree to and didn’t want. Use that language, that might get through to them.

    5. Okumura Haru*

      Super out of bounds, discomfort is super justified.

      I’m sorry for the awful situation. I agree to talk with your boss.

    6. Close Bracket*

      I hate when people take pictures of me. Hate it. I will get up and move to get out of the frame, I will turn around, I will hold up a hand to block my face, I will do anything. People who love being in pictures do not get it. Is your discomfort justified? Yep. Was taking your picture out of bounds? It’s a total dick move to do something to someone that they have said they don’t like, but I wouldn’t put it in “they hugged me when I asked them not to” territory. So it’s out of bounds, but not very far out of bounds.

      Btw, it does’t matter what expression he has on his face, you are allowed to assert your boundaries by any method short of assaulting him.

    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agreeing with everyone else. Your coworker acted gross and awful, no matter the circumstances. Are there any other signs of boundary-crossing from this coworker? If so, talk to your manager and theirs, because this is so not okay.

  132. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    So, I’m trying to get my gender-neutral nickname into use in the office. It’s somewhat difficult, as a lot of our functions require the use of full legal names, or default to them — you don’t get to have email aliases, email signatures require your legal name as listed on BrokerCheck, intra-system verification runs off of legal names, etc so on so forth. But no one has trouble with calling Elizabeth ‘Liz’ in casual talk or when she introduces herself that way on the phone. My name is quite a bit less common, and so is the nickname, but the derivation is IMO pretty obvious, so I don’t expect it to be too difficult.

    That said, I’m reluctant to do something like announce it at the next team meeting. I’d much rather just demonstrate it quietly — introduce myself on the phone as Chie instead of Boochie, refer to myself that way in conversations where it’s not weird (“And then my roommate says, ‘Chie, what are you doing?'”) Is that likely to be enough of a cue to offer folks?

    1. Buttons*

      With new people, it should be enough, but with existing relationships maybe not. If someone says “Hey Boochie” you can say “Hi! Btw, I have been meaning to bring this up, but I really prefer to be called Chie.” Hopefully, that is enough, but it may take a while.

      I work with a lot of people from outside of the US, and many use a westernized version of their legal name, they have their email signature written as Boochie (Chie) Flagrante. Is that a possibility?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        The email signature unfortunately is pretty inflexible…. but on the other hand, I don’t email clients directly, and the rules about when we have to use it internally are pretty loose. (By ‘loose,’ I really mean ‘don’t exist’ — but unwritten conventions certainly do.) If I’m sending emails just to my boss, or to other members of my team, I can drop the fancy signature with my title and current assignment and office address and the company logo and whatnot. If I’m sending emails under the department email address, I do have to use the signature. It’s a start, anyway.

        1. Qwerty*

          What about signing off at the end of the email even when you have the formal signature? I’ve worked with a lot people whose email is configured to automatically append the signature for external emails, so they often sign off with their nickname while the signature has the full name.

          Example below:

          *****************************************************************

          Hi Client,

          Your new llamas will arriving at your vineyard on Tuesday. Treat them well!

          Thanks,
          Chie

          Countess Boochie Flagrante
          Vice President of Llamas
          LLAMA CORP
          111-222-3344

        2. Jo*

          Can you sign off your email with your nickname followed by the signature block? Like so:

          Thanks,
          Nickname

          Full name, title
          Address, etc.

    2. Nanobots*

      I have to admit, I only had success with this when changing jobs. My non-binary house-mate is also changing their name, and waiting until getting a new job to start the process.

      I would think announcing it is the way to go. Even if I hear someone using a “nickname” or non-standard name for someone, I don’t assume that I’m allowed to. I’d rather hear directly from someone that I allowed to or they prefer that I call them a specific name.

    3. Yes Anastasia*

      I would explicitly tell people you are going by a different name now, and would not call it a nickname. “Nickname” might make people think it’s optional.

      And agree with signing emails using your nickname, even if your signature line says something else.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        For the moment, I do consider it optional; I’m still weighing what I want to do with my name in the long term, and while I do love my full name (it’s one I chose myself and legally changed to about four years ago), I’m not entirely enamored of the gender-neutral version. It’s a weird place to be in.

        1. valentine*

          Why do you want to use a nickname you’re not entirely enamored of?

          If you want to just try it out, send an email to your team that you’re going by Chie for the next while and to please use that.

    4. Okumura Haru*

      In person/phone, I’d just say “Chie” or “I prefer Chie” – that’s what I do in my office.

      I agree with QWERTY’s suggestions about e-mail.

      Is that a Persona reference?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        It isn’t; I’m one of the few non-Persona players among my social circle! :) But I at least know it could be.

  133. AccountantWendy*

    Always check your paychecks! This week I discovered my 3% raise back in January was never added to my hourly wage! (Yes, it’s embarrassing that as an accountant it took me so long to realize this!) My manager has confirmed I will of course receive back pay but it’s still a paperwork night mare. If I had been more diligent back in January I could have caught this right away. (But don’t get excited, back pay is only $1,300 before any withholding, so at the end of the day I estimate I’ll take home $900, which is gonna go right into savings where it belongs.)

    But it’s a good lesson to remind everyone about – always double check your paystubs!

    1. I work in Payroll*

      +1,000,000

      Your paycheck doesn’t happen by magic, people! Your payroll department is run by humans, who process information submitted by humans.

      1. De Minimis*

        A lot can go wrong. I’ve worked at several places where accounting works with an outside payroll administration company, and things still can get messed up.

    2. OtterB*

      Yep, my boss always tells us to check our paystubs when raises go into effect (same annual date for all of us).

      I had to email him once and say, “I hate to say this, but I think I’ve been overpaid.” (It was not a normal raise; there was a one-time adjustment for everyone something-or-other that was supposed to be an increment over what we’d already been paid, and instead gave me the full amount. Not a huge sum of money, but not right.)

    3. Fikly*

      100%

      I just went from 4 days a week to 5 days a week in September, and it didn’t get communicated properly! Checked what would be the second new paycheck for a happy increase, and saw my standard paycheck. Company gave me the backpay in 4 days, cause they are awesome, with full apologies, but check, check, check!

  134. Mimmy*

    Transparency regarding student / client dismissals

    Two of our (adult) students were sent home a couple weeks ago from our program (it is a training program and our students reside onsite during the week). One, Student A, will not be returning, the other, Student B, is expected to return, we just don’t know when. Many of the staff have a good idea of the circumstances surrounding their being sent home (a specific policy violation). However, our director gave different reasons why they were sent home, like family reasons and illness; made it sound like it was two separate issues when we’re pretty sure both students were involved in the same incident. (Note: Details are being kept vague intentionally.)

    Some staff think management wants to protect the students’ privacy, which I totally get. But to say a student went home because they were ill when in fact it was because of a policy violation doesn’t seem right. Maybe my thinking is off, but I don’t see why the managers can just say something like, “Students A and B violated a policy and were sent home…Student A had a repeat violation and thus will not be returning”. I don’t need the specifics on what they did, but a little honesty goes a long way.

    1. Mimmy*

      made it sound like it was two separate issues when we’re pretty sure both students were involved in the same incident.

      That should say “HE made it sound like…”

    2. Buttons*

      “Students A and B violated a policy and were sent home…Student A had a repeat violation and thus will not be returning”

      I would leave out “violated a policy” and just say “was sent home. Student A will not be returning.” If someone asks why, my answer would be “I can’t discuss it for privacy reasons.” But most people will know anyway.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      How public was the policy violation? If no one knows what happened, then there’s no harm in keeping things discreet, IMO, but if it’s a “got in a fistfight in front of half a dozen spectators” situation, then there’s greater value in being clear that this is a consequence of actions that many people are aware of and this is how this sort of behavior is handled.

      1. Antilles*

        As a general principle, I agree, but students can be extremely quirky about that sort of thing due to FERPA and other similar legal protections. Even if it’s a well known violation, you can still be blocked from providing information publicly.
        I mean, right now, Mississippi State has suspended almost a dozen football players for academic fraud. There’s obviously no point in secrecy because you can literally turn on a TV and see which starters are weirdly not on the field…but per FERPA the coach isn’t even allowed to confirm which players were involved.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          It doesn’t sound as though we’re talking about an actual school, though. A training program likely doesn’t have the same considerations as a college.

          1. Mimmy*

            You are correct – it’s a state-run vocational rehabilitation training center. I was trying to keep details vague to protect privacy–mine and that of my coworkers and students.

    4. Approval is optional*

      Is it possible that the students were given the option of going home voluntarily before they were ‘suspended’, and these are the reasons they gave when they took the first option? So they are technically the official reasons for their absences. Along the lines of an employer allowing you to resign so you don’t have to answer ‘yes’ to the have you ever been fired question.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can keep things confidential without lying about it. Saying it’s “illness” or “family matters” is a lie an that’s not appropriate to do, ever.

      What you say is “They have been sent home. I cannot provide you further details, as it’s a private matter.”

      I’d be livid if people said I was ill or acted like I had a “family matter” while they were the course of disciplinary action. That’s vibes you don’t put on someone and their family, wtf.

    6. Asenath*

      I never get information on why a student is no longer around. I need to know that someone’s gone, but it’s always just an email saying “XY is no longer in the Llama Program and should be removed from all your lists (usually this means mailing lists, schedules etc.).

      If XY doesn’t return, that’s it. If they do return, there’s an email saying “XY is being added to the Year 2 Llama Program list effective DATE.” Sometimes, if it’s not a normal time to start the program, I’ll get more specific info re what classes they need to take, since they aren’t on the usual schedule.

      I don’ t need to know anything else. I do know the policies – XY could have left for any reason from their own or a relative’s health, through academic failure or fraud, to some kind of criminal offense. I don’t need to know which to do my job.

      1. just a random teacher*

        Yeah, I basically need to know (a) will they be returning in a way that means I’ll need a plan to get them caught up or should otherwise document/capture their progress to this point in some specific way and (b) should I call security if I see them on campus while they’re on leave. Otherwise, I don’t really need to know the “why” (unless it’s something of the “to be celebrated” kind where I should make sure to congratulate the person for something).

  135. Should I move up?*

    I’m in academia, and our department chair job will be open at the end of this academic year. The current chair will probably ask to be selected again, but indications are that the dean wants someone new. I’m considering applying but my fear is that, if I don’t get it, I will face retribution from the current chair. Any thoughts about how to minimize this? And more generally, how do you know if you want/should apply for an administrative position? What are some good indicators?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t know about how to evaluate whether you would enjoy a academic administrative position.

      On the retribution: Why do you fear this from the outgoing chair? Do they have a history of being vindicative?

    2. Reliquary*

      Do you not have an election? When it comes to chair elections, it’s usually not about who the dean wants, but who the departmental faculty want. Who cares what the dean wants? A chair has to be able to advocate for their department and their faculty, not just implement decanal mandates.

      In any event, why and how could a former chair be retributive if they’re no longer chair? If there’s some way that could happen at your place, your department is pretty dysfunctional, and you might not even want to chair that mess.

  136. Faith*

    Feeling mildly annoyed. I think that the whole concept of having to fill out an online job application when the company is the one that sought you out, you’ve already submitted a resume, they reviewed it, you’ve had the first phone interview and has been scheduled for the second one is such BS. Now I’m going to have to remember my exact employment dates and other useless information like that.

    1. Nanobots*

      It’s generally a legal requirement. We have to have your application on file to fulfill state and federal reporting requirements.

      Yeah, it’s annoying. We wish we didn’t have to make you do it.

    2. Qwerty*

      Does it help to mentally frame it as you are filling out your information for your background check? Especially if the second interview happens to be the final interview, then they may want to start the process of confirming those dates before extending an offer.

      In the future, create a file to record important information like your start/end date, supervisor’s name, previous addresses. These are all fields that come up on background checks and various industry registrations and it will make filling out forms easier in the future.

    3. WellRed*

      As one of the many millions of people who don’t work for the government or ever need to submit to background checks, yeah, I sympathize. Waste of time. Bet no one even looks at it.

  137. Elenna*

    I just recently realized that my cover letters have all had “July 1, 2019” on them since, well, July 1. Oops. :P Hopefully this didn’t screw over my job search too much? At least I didn’t put ‘attention to detail’ on those cover letters???

    1. Antilles*

      It’s a good lesson to pay attention to, but FYI, Word does have the option of inserting Date Field rather than the actual date so you don’t have to worry about it in the future. Or just attach a little sticky note to your monitor to remember to check it.
      That said, I wouldn’t worry about it. Enough people use a fairly generic cover letter that IF the hiring manager even notices it (they might not), it’ll just come off as you using your normal Chocolate Teapot Cover Letter template.

    2. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      I don’t think many hiring managers would notice that. I recently found out I had an error on my resume. I messed up the word “metallurgical”. It was bad almost unrecognizable. Sadly my chances for that role are gone. Lesson learned though.

  138. Not really a waitress*

    I lost my job and am obviously actively job hunting. Anyone feel like it s a high stakes game of chicken when salary comes up. Why is it so hard for employers to say it first?

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      Because they don’t want to. Because they don’t want to give you one dollar more than they absolutely have to.

      When I’ve been asked what salary I was looking for, I would ask, “What is your range?” Then they would say, “I asked you first!” So I had no choice but to name a figure. There was no way I could ask right off the bat, “What is the salary range for this position?” Because they would ask in return, “What are you looking for?” And I couldn’t very well say, “I asked you first!”

      I keep reading that the first one to mention a dollar figure loses. If this is true, then the company always wins (if it wants to).

  139. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Yestersay I got this text before dinner from a guy at OldJob.
    “Hi. Do you remember when the Product Owner went bananas and requested to kill 1500 system accounts six months ago? Do you have a copy of the ticket? Because it blew up today and the idiot denies he made the request”.
    Yeah, Kevin, I do. That would be $50.

      1. valentine*

        I guess the kind of place where this happens won’t let him expense a much higher amount.

  140. A.S.*

    Hi, I hope this is an ok place to ask this, I’m desperate. Does anyone have any recommendations for professional-looking women’s work pants for an oddly-proportioned body?

    I wear size 12 or 14, and every pair of pants I try on ends up being low-rise in the back, and having a huge gap at my lower back where the waistband is too big. Basically, my butt is bigger than clothing manufacturers planned on, and my natural waist is high, above my belly.

    I tried Torrid, but all their work pants were stretchy and revealing, and I would not be comfortable wearing them to work. I don’t want to wear anything cropped or Capri, because I don’t shave my legs, and I work with people who would judge that.

    I’m down to one pair of work pants that’s about to completely die, and they aren’t being made anymore.

    I might be forced to get pants altered, but I’d like to avoid the expense, and I have no idea where to start with that.

    If anyone has any suggestions, I would be so grateful. Thank you.

    1. Junior Dev*

      I got some high waisted pants at ModCloth that fit pretty well. I have a similar problem and basically can’t wear pants unless they fit more like a skirt. Look in the “work pants” section.

    2. GoodLuck!*

      Go get some things altered. the time spent looking versus the price will be worth it. Altering is less expensive than you would think.

      1. A.S.*

        Thank you for the advice! Should I get pants that are too big for the tailor to work with? And do you have any tips on how to find a good tailor, either for alterations or pants from scratch?

        1. Buttons*

          Get the pants to fit the hard to fit area, and then have the waist taken in. I fund my tailor by reading reviews online. You can also ask around, lots of people have to get their clothes tailored.

          All my pants are from The Loft or Ann Taylor.

      2. Reba*

        Quite a few stores offer free or low cost basic alterations to their cardholders (J Crew, Banana Republic). Dillards and Nordstrom both offer in-house alterations, some basic services are free, while others are charged. Nordstrom Rack, too.

        Dry cleaners are a good place to start. It’s great to have a tailor that you trust, so ask friends for rec’s, too. Fortunately, taking in the waist of trousers is a really common tailoring task, so it’s likely that any one you take it too will handle the job well.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Alterations, especially something as low-key as nipping in the waist at the back, are not as expensive as you might think. Buy pants with the rise you want that accommodate your widest point, and get them taken in. A great place to start is your local dry cleaner — most of them also offer alterations, and usually for not-outrageous prices.

        1. MechanicalPencil*

          It’s a really simple fix to make to the waist in the back. Blessedly my mother sews, so I can pay her in meals. But it’s really just taking in a bit on either side and tapering the seam down. It can be a bit more complicated if you have a fancy, super wide waistband or something but generally the standard dress pant waistbands are maybe 20 minutes at the sewing machine (if that).

          Most of the dry cleaners I’ve gone to are able to do this sort of alteration as well. Just be prepared when you drop them off to have enough time to be able to try each pair of pants on so they know how much you need taken out of the pants. Maybe call ahead so they know you’re coming in case whoever does the alterations isn’t always there, and so you can get an idea on pricing.

    4. Parenthetically*

      Land’s End! They’re currently having a 40% off regular prices sale, and they have a few dozen options — loads of colors, textures, leg widths, and styles — in high-rise pants, some with elastic backs which would almost definitely solve your issue. They also have a “curvy fit” which is for larger backside/thighs and slimmer waist. With the sale, they’re around $30 a pair.

      Everlane’s wide leg relaxed chino might work for you as well — their pants seem to be made for women who are a bit more hippy than average.

      Also I think you and I have the same body! It’s such a struggle to find pants I’m not fighting with all day. (Which is why at work I mainly lived in leggings/tights and tunics/dresses.)

    5. Nanobots*

      I was about to suggest Torrid, but kept reading.

      I would suggest the Avenue but it’s possible they all shut down.

      I’m not a huge fan of them, but try Catherine’s.

    6. periwinkle*

      Talbots offers “curvy fit” in both regular and plus sizes for pants and jeans. A regular size 12 has a 31.5″ waist and 41.5″ hips, while the curvy 12 has the same hip measurement but a 29.5″ waist. Size 14 has 43″ hips with a 33″ waist regular fit and 31″ waist for curvy fit.

    7. AccountantWendy*

      Having your clothing altered to fit will be less expensive in the long run than buying a lot of pants that ultimately don’t fit and don’t get worn. That said, try Woman Within or Lands Ends. Lands End in particular has nice pants with elastic waists, which (unless you want alterations) is probably going to be helpful for finding a good fit.

    8. Alex*

      I am also shaped like this and often get my pants altered. It is usually not that expensive. I’ve had the best luck with Ann Taylor Outlet pants. They have a “curvy” cut that is usually pretty good.

    10. Ranon*

      Can you find more of the model you have that do fit on Poshmark? That’s how I bought jeans when I found out the manufacturer discontinued the cut I liked.

  141. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I sent a notice to a customer who was over their credit limit, letting them know that they needed to pay their outstanding invoices prior to being able to fulfill any new orders. It was easy breezy and really nice…

    The person called up and started the conversation with “Why are you being so nasty?” Bless their hearts, if I’m nasty for requiring people to pay their bills, then I’m the nastiest of all the nasties in the nastiest world!

    I think this stuff is funny though, I now there are others who would be upset by this nonsense. So I’m annoyed that people think it’s okay to get butthurt that they have a credit limit because I’m not bankrolling their stupid business.

    Just a casual story/rant because I’m having one of those days.

    1. Rebecca*

      Oh, don’t you love that? Some years ago I called one of my customers and asked to speak to the owner (small business) about some outstanding invoices that were going 90+ days past due. I didn’t want to give a ton of info to the person answering the phone, until she said “oh, they’re in Greece on vacation, will be back in a few weeks”. My manager wouldn’t let me send the invoices to collection. I think they were eventually paid, but that always stuck in my mind. Vacationing in Europe vs paying bills. I wish I could remember the name of the store, it would be interesting to see if they were still in business.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        My old boss lost over 10k because some snot was busy spending the money he was “earning” on vacations instead of bills…he’d literally tell my boss about his extravagance and then apologize in the next breath that he couldn’t pay up…but could he have more product cuz he’s trying to work himself out that hole…right.

        Sadly the boss hated collections as well and was too nice and got 1,200 in the bankruptcy payout. Then the guy sold the business to someone and went to build a new company. Where he wanted to sell our stuff, that was when the boss finally at least said “Fine but you’re paying in advance.” and the other store, despite being new owners never got credit again because once bitten, twice shy. They were totally annoyed by it and tried to fight with me about it and “we’re not the old ownership!” “Right but you’re still the same entity. If you show me you can pay without an issue for a few years, we can revisit a small line of credit.”

        It took them weeks to send pre-payment. Then they’d get mad about the delays…they’d print checks with the due-date on them but mail them [hey I look at postage because I’m a monster like that] weeks later. So their “books” were “paid on time” but yeah, I can’t cash a check that isn’t even on it’s way yet, bro.

        Thankfully I’m with a company that isn’t nearly as kind and I’ll write off a couple hundred bucks if necessary but you’ll never get anything again unless you’re paying with a credit card. I’ve had people get mad that they can’t put it on terms and I’m just like “Sorry, your account has bad payment history, so it’s a high risk account and therefore I cannot extend you credit.” Pay. Your. Bills.

    2. 1234*

      LOL “Why are you spending money you don’t have?” *eye roll*

      If it makes you feel any better, friends of mine unfortunately worked for a Company ABC that declared bankruptcy. I looked at the filing which contained the list of companies/employees they owed money to and how much. One of the largest amounts I saw was to Company XYZ to the tune of $89,000.

      Why Company XYZ continued to do work for them without saying “Hey, you still owe us $$$ and until we collect, we won’t be doing more work” to where Company ABC owed them $89K, I have no clue.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I can tell you why XYZ worked with them.

        They have no internal controls or their management teams are the “Never say no” kinds.

        The rule of thumb is don’t extend more credit than you are able to lose! This is why I have blocked major corporations from ordering again due to outstanding balances of much less!

        I’ve seen big companies kill little companies because of this kind of thing! This is also why you have to diversify your customer base so much. I had one company crippled to the point of almost bankruptcy because they relied on Big Player and that player went belly up because the economy is fickle.

        Many of the big recongized names are notorious for screwing over little vendors for various reasons and simply won’t pay.

        Rule #1, someone has to want to pay their bills first and foremost. Rule #2, they have to have the means to do so.

        So many businesses try to run on negative cash flow. If you ever find yourself at one, run like the wind.

        These annoy the living crud out of me but I’m a powerful witch who will just make them go “bye”, my bosses now don’t like losing money and have given me access to the outsourced collection agency if necessary. Only select few get more than a couple thousand dollars to play with since that’s the most I’m willing to let these people play with. We’re not going to hurt if we lose more but my pride will hurt and my job is to protect this big ol’ pile of coin that’s earmarked for my bosses and all of us who you know, want to keep the job we have!

    3. Mockingjay*

      Back in the dark ages, I worked in Customer Service of the local department store. Each month we got these huge binders of accordion-fold dot matrix printouts of the store card account holders and their payments. I was the mystery person on the phone who the cashier called to verify that the customer account was in good standing so they could charge a purchase.

      Yeah, I had to deny all kinds of people, who would storm from the register and head to the CS counter in the back, demanding the manager. My favorite was the lady who paid all of her bill except a few cents. Of course she got charged interest on those few cents. It snowballed each month. She refused to pay the interest, we would show her the original error, and she stuck by her position. After six months, we were required to suspend her account.

      I left the store not long after. I always wondered if she ever paid.

  142. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Court case in the news — “Supreme Court term to begin with blockbuster question: Is it legal to fire someone for being gay or transgender?”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-term-to-begin-with-blockbuster-question-is-it-legal-to-fire-someone-for-being-gay-or-transgender/2019/10/03/b3b08a46-e15d-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html

    (FYI There’s a max# of visits for Washington Post unless you subscribe. Subscriptions are free for people with emails ending in .EDU , .GOV, or .MIL. Subscriptions are discounted heavily for Amazon Prime subscribers. I’m not affiliated with them except as a subscriber.)

    1. anon24*

      Wait, I can get a free subscription with an .edu email? I take online classes and I always have assignments to read Washington post articles and I’m always opening in various browsers, in incognito mode, on different devices, whatever I can do to finish my stupid assignments. Why did no one bother to tell me this?

    2. Llellayena*

      Ack! I read that but my response would be way too far into the political end of things to meet the requirements for this site. This is a “change the law” issue rather than an “interpret the law” issue in my mind, at least in part.

  143. Junior Dev*

    I’m getting back into the slow and frustrating process of trying new brain meds. The anxiety medication that worked best for me is not one I can take anymore. (Please don’t give me medical or healthcare related advice of any kind, this is about navigating work.) I am sorting out whether I want to take some new antidepressants, or some old ones that affected me badly in the past but it’s been long enough I want to try again, or try to do something different. I don’t know. What I do know is that I’m having poor mental health and whatever i do to try to get it to feel better in the long term will probably mess me up and make me less productive in the short term.

    I already told my boss, “I’m going to be adjusting medications for mental health and it may affect me but I don’t know how.” He’s unusually open and accepting about this stuff but I still get really scared because I don’t have the concentration or ability to be around people of a “““normal person””” and I sometimes get really scared that means I’m worthless as an employee and they’ll fire me, even though my last performance review was good and my boss said he’s ok with me working from home a lot.

    How do I navigate this? I’m in about the best possible situation with regards to work but I’ve been on at least a dozen different brain meds in my life and it takes a lot of work to find one that’s actually good for me, and I’m scared.

    1. Approval is optional*

      Would it help you feel less scared if you put some systems in place to minimise things like concentration problems? Checklists, a system to process your inbox or the like? My late partner did this when they were going through ‘arse brain times’ (as they called their negative thought spirals), so they could try to stop the spiral by saying to the ‘arse’, ‘ah, but I did Y so you can just stop telling me that X is going to be a disaster’. And maybe keep reminding yourself that you have support from your boss, you are a good employee and people are pulling for you.
      All the best – it’s hard, but you’re worth it.

      1. Junior Dev*

        How do you do this when you already feel awful?

        I have a system set up for generating daily todo lists but I’m drowning in emails lately.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Do a search for email tips or email organization in the AAM archives. There’s quite a few threads on ways to sort and filter email, by AAM users with a variety of email systems.

    2. Tib*

      Another option would maybe be to schedule in some short weeks if at all possible? Maybe take some Mondays and Fridays off during the transition phase. When I’m in a flare sometimes just knowing that I don’t have to make it through the full 40 hours is enough to get me through 32.

  144. Parenthetically*

    So my husband is entitled to 12 weeks of leave to be used at any time during the first year after after Little Brackets #2 is born, and he’ll probably plan to take the first 3 or 4 weeks completely off, but we haven’t decided what to do after that. My question — is it ethical for him to take some of that time off later in the year for some “family bonding” during which we’d travel? Is that a thing? Or would he get side-eye (or in actual trouble) for spending two weeks in June camping? I have no idea how this leave thing works — Little Brackets #1 was born when my husband’s green card was still in process and he couldn’t work yet.

    1. Buttons*

      I think that might be a corporate culture question. At my company, no one would even ask what you were doing during that second 2 weeks. And if someone said they used their paternity leave to travel as a family, people would think it was a great use of time. But my company is pretty big on the “family first” talk.
      Congratulations on the new baby!

        1. valentine*

          I don’t see why bonding should be limited to the home. You might use the leave to introduce the child to relatives and I expect childcare to include outings, so camping sounds fine.

    2. Overeducated*

      I think “family bonding” is a legitimate reason for taking time off in the year after birth under federal FMLA and many policies, so I don’t see anything wrong with it if he can get approval from his management. You don’t have to stay home and not do anything to bond with a baby!

      My husband has split his leave, or plans to, with both of our kids. The first time he got 4 weeks total, and negotiated taking 2 weeks right after the birth and 1 week months later when I was defending my dissertation; this time he gets 8 weeks, and even though the policy officially says it has to be consecutive, his boss has approved 2 weeks after the birth and the remaining 6 when I go back to work. The hard part may just be explaining WHY he wants to split it – in our case we can point to pretty obvious childcare needs.

      1. Parenthetically*

        This was more or less my thought, just wanted to make sure I wasn’t approaching it from the wrong angle!

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Hmm.

      I’m not proud of this, but I have to admit that I would give this pretty serious side-eye, as a colleague of your husband’s. There’s no way it doesn’t read to others as extra paid vacation for him, simply because you had a child.

      1. Parenthetically*

        This is UNPAID leave, I should have mentioned.

        Also… yeah, I hear you, but at the same time, not everyone “gets” to use bereavement leave or long-term sick leave. Couldn’t you see that as extra vacation, too?

        1. WellRed*

          Is he planning on taking the rest of it in the second leave, or is he planning to break it up into several small chunks? Either way, I agree it’s a culture thing in his office. We always read here that parental leave is for recovery and bonding and covering for the returning spouse, so a two-week parental leave to go camping miiiight look a bit askew, but it depends on his company, ya know? i think that’s what Lucette might be getting at. Congrats and let us know how it works out!

        2. Lucette Kensack*

          Oh, that makes a huge difference.

          I would also look sideways at someone us used bereavement leave or long-term sick leave to take a vacation, which is what you’re planning.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I’m glad you’re not proud of it.

        Several men, including at high levels, have taken long paternity leaves at my office, and it’s something that is looked at as normal — and it also makes me think more highly of my firm that this is not only allowed but encouraged.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          Absolutely. All parents should have access to paid parental leave.

          Taking two weeks of parental leave to take a vacation months after the baby is born to take a vacation isn’t what the leave is designed for. Would they be taking this vacation without the baby? I assume so; there isn’t any reason a baby would necessitate a camping vacation — so that means it should be vacation leave, not parental leave, right?

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            I think that gets too granular about what leave is “for.” There is a new baby, and bonding with the baby is the goal here. If they’re doing it while camping… hey, that’s not how I’d choose to bond with a new baby, but I don’t think the employer has grounds to say “you can only bond with your baby by performing X, Y, or Z activities.”

    4. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      Make sure his company allows the bonding time to be split up – federal law does not require companies to allow this, so he may forfeit the remainder of his bonding time if he doesn’t take it all at once.

      Otherwise – if he just says “bonding time” then it’s meant to be time spent with the family. If that time is spent camping with the family… it’s still time spent with the family. This isn’t medical leave where the expectation is that you are caring for or recovering from injury/illness. I currently have an employee taking 2 weeks bonding time to travel to the coast (with new baby) and will take another 2 weeks bonding in December when their parents come to meet new baby for the Holidays. If that’s how they use their legally protected bonding time, that’s their business not mine.

  145. Coverage Associate*

    Got a new offer from a firm I turned down in May. It is 5% more than my current salary, not really enough to make the switch unless I am truly unhappy where I am. Lots to think about.

  146. PM-NYC*

    Just wanted to say to John S. who commented in the Sept. 6th open thread who was having issues breaking into the biochem field and was feeling hopeless, I’ve been looking in each open thread since to see if you’ve commented. This internet stranger is thinking of you and wishing you success, safety and happiness. I hope that you’re able to get the support you need.

  147. light wars*

    My floor has about 24 people. We have large windows that allow natural lighting so we never turn on the fluorescent lights on the floor (1/4 of the lights always remain on because they’re emergency lights). Recently, we’ve had a mini-war. About 3 employees have complained that they can’t see well enough and have been turning on all the lights. Several others have now complained that the excessive fluorescent lights cause them headaches. Our company will not buy the 3 employees their own lamps. No one is willing to trade cubicles with them to the brighter areas of the floor. So what happens is people keep turning the lights on and off. Not sure how this will end.

    1. Antilles*

      In a sane world, this would end with the manager of the department just agreeing to spend a few bucks on some cheap lamps from Target or Walmart for like $20 each and handing them out to the employees who can’t see. The idea that they won’t just buy a few small floor/desk lamps for the people who need them is really dumb.
      But I’d guess how this will *actually* end is that the situation will simply fester for a long time in a way that pisses off everyone. From there, the best ending is that it goes up the chain far enough that it lands on the desk of someone in management who goes “wait, this has been going on how long? for bleep’s sake, just let the engineers buy a freaking desk lamp!” and the situation gets magically fixed. More likely ending is that never happens and instead people end up leaving the company over light switches.

    2. All out of bubblegum*

      24 people, but only 3 need lights. Easiest solution is to get them lamps. I would either check with housekeeping/building maintenance to see if there are lamps not being used; or put a WANTED poster in the cafeteria.
      If this is not possible, then my next suggestion would be to have housekeeping/maintenance disconnect the bulbs from the florescent lights that shine on those who get headaches (I had this done in a previous office, the lights were giving me migraines)

  148. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

    The salary history ban law took effect here in Illinois this week. This makes me very, very happy.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It seems to be taking off in a lot of states this year! Which is fantastic. I hope they do a better job communicating this change to employers than Washington State did. Growl.

    2. ThatGirl*

      We were talking about that at work, and one coworker said yeah, and now we can discuss salary too (implying that companies could prevent us from doing so). I corrected that assumption and apparently someone made her sign something saying she wouldn’t. Made me mad.

  149. Alex*

    Thoughts about forcing people to do public speaking?

    My job that I was hired for includes 0 public speaking opportunities. We don’t even get sent to conferences or anything at all where we would have to make a presentation. Even talking on the phone is an extreme rarity.

    Over the past two years, they’ve started asking us to do internal presentations. These presentations serve no purpose other than “to build collaboration and transparency”. I actually hate even listening to the presentations because they are not relevant to me nor are they interesting, but it is even worse to have to do them myself.

    I’m a terrible public speaker, and I HATE IT. I would never take a job with public speaking. The newly implemented thing is that public speaking is a great skill for everyone to have and everyone should develop it no matter what their position. I have no interest in developing public speaking skills. The actual tasks of my job do not require public speaking, nor would my job ever lead to a position where I would need to give presentations or anything like that. The only public speaking required is this internal presentation thing that is supposed to be “motivational”.

    It is even worse for my coworker, who has a true public speaking phobia. His first turn is coming up and he is practically ill over it. My boss says that this is REQUIRED and we can’t decline no matter how strongly we feel. I feel that this is cruel to do to people. I do plenty extra from my job–I participate in other company-wide initiatives, etc. I don’t understand why this one thing is so important when it makes people so miserable.

    1. ChimericalOne*

      Alison would probably suggest getting a group together of people who think this is unpleasant and/or a waste of time and asking that these presentations stop or be made optional, as they are lowering morale. If that fails, I would think that your coworker should be able to get a note from a therapist stating that he should not be made to engage in public speaking unless it is a critical part of his job functions and describing this as a medical accommodation. (If “medical accommodation” doesn’t get your boss to think twice, it might get HR to.)

      Meanwhile, if they are dead set on doing this & don’t stop despite protests, it may be time to start applying elsewhere. It sounds like your skills should be transferable to a job that doesn’t require this.

    2. Rick Tq*

      I’m pretty introverted by default, so speaking in public started as a large stretch for me. I learned a couple of things over the years that may help you and your coworker:
      – The people in the audience aren’t the enemy, they aren’t comfortable in front of an audience either
      – Nobody knows what you were going to say or how you were going to say it, so there isn’t any need to apologize for how the actual presentation went.
      – Look at specific people while you speak, don’t stare out over the audience.
      – Your slides should be Cliff notes, don’t fill the screen with text and read it, that is an attention-killer par excel-lance..

      Hopefully your boss just wants you to speak on a topic of your choice, not some random assignment. You are speaking because you know more about the topic that the audience.

      Note: Public speaking can include giving the Best Man or Maid of Honor toast at a wedding, it doesn’t have to be Death By PowerPoint……

      Good luck!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree with all of these so much. Never apologize out of embarrassment for anything you say or don’t say before, during, or after, as it makes the speaker look far more nervous. If you stumble, stutter, or lose your train of thought, move on as best you can. Everyone does it and the audience won’t give it a second thought if you don’t. Look for the people who are smiling at you or have generally positive expressions or behaviors like nodding (we’re out there, I promise).

        One aside on don’t fill the screen – do use sufficient text to provide cues for yourself of what you planned to say, and for others to read (and for posterity if the presentations are stored somewhere). Giving people something to read takes their attention off you for short periods of time. That said, use a font size that IS readable and don’t put up a solid wall of text. Use pictures or graphics liberally.

        If you do have to do it:
        Stay seated if you can – smaller rooms make this more possible. I don’t mind presenting while standing, but staying seated makes it feel more informal which could help with nerves.

        Practice what you are going to say ahead of time. Go through your entire presentation multiple times, practicing exactly what you will say. If you need to write a script, do that (I did for the first few talks I gave) but don’t memorize it to the point that you can’t deviate from the memorized script. I can tell you from experience, if you are not a practiced public speaker at first you will hate the way you sound, you’ll feel like an idiot who’s never spoken aloud in their life. By the fourth or fifth run through, it’s just fine tuning. Link what you’re saying to the various cues in your presentation so if you get off-track, look up at your slides and recover.

    3. CheeryO*

      If you truly never need the skills, then yes, it’s a waste of time at best and vaguely cruel at worst. I did a two-day public speaking training course recently at work, and the instructor straight-up acknowledged that it was going to be extremely difficult, but worth it, since we do occasionally need to speak at conferences or whatnot. The thing that made it so hard was also what made it valuable – honest, constructive criticism from our peers following both a prepared speech and some off-the-cuff speaking. If you’re not getting that, then I’m not sure how helpful it really is. If they’re that invested in improving your skills, they should pay for you to do Toastmasters or something.

    4. Garland Not Andrews*

      I do wonder how they are going to deal with it when your poor coworker is in the corner barfing in a trash can? Major not fun.

      Do they require that those it do it poorly do it again and again for practice?
      I agree with CheeryO if they are truly committed to making everyone good at public speaking, they should start a Toastmasters group.

    5. Asenath*

      I hate public speaking. I did acquire the basic skills in another job in the distant past, so I can do it, but have managed to avoid it so long that no on asks me to do it any more. I don’t really see that it’s particularly useful to insist that everyone do it. Some jobs do require making regular presentations; others don’t. I can’t imagine someone having to sit through me doing a presentation on the latest developments in my job! It would be tedious and pointless to anyone who doesn’t do the same work! And, yes, many people become extremely anxious about public speaking. I don’t see why your boss thinks it’s so important for everyone, but since he does, I don’t know how you’d change his mind.

    6. Elenna*

      If I were your coworker I would be so tempted to barf on your boss…
      (disclaimer: not actually intended as good advice. do not follow.)

    7. Junior Dev*

      The coworker should ask his doctor or therapist for a note saying he should be excused from public speaking for medical reasons, and request it as an ADA accommodation.

    8. Gatomon*

      See I don’t understand this sort of thing either! If presenting is a core job function, evaluating presentation skills should be part of the hiring process. Unless you are seeking out people who like to present, you are not likely to find them (in my opinion). And I don’t think forcing people who don’t like presenting to make presentations will make them significantly better or more comfortable at it. If the job has changed to that point, it needs to be made known and real training offered to those who are interested. And if no one is interested/capable, then they need to make a hire that is.

      Personally, I am a terrible presenter. I’m a disorganized speaker, deeply fearful of being up in front of a room and softspoken at best. If I’m not prepared nothing comes out of my mouth. If I practice too much, I zonk out and regurgitate lines as fast as I can to get it over with. I’m not sure if it was different for those older than me, but as a 30-something, there was a huge emphasis on public speaking in my education from elementary school up through my bachelor’s. It did not help one lick. I am no better now than at 17 or 8.

      I had a job where we were all forced to facilitate the weekly staff meetings and fill the time with presentations on various topics to justify the ridiculous time wasted on these weekly meetings. The excuse was that we all needed practice presenting, even though only a few of the staff would even present on rare occasions, and never me as the office admin. I think the actual reason for the policy was that management knew it was impossible to fill 2 hours of staff meeting a week regularly so they wanted to farm out the whole responsibility to staff members… but anyway the feedback I got from that job was as expected: I’m a bad presenter. I got raked over the coals for it.

      The only real suggestion I got was to try a local Toastmaster’s group, but it sounded like hell on earth to me so I didn’t attend. I don’t have/never had any desire to be better at public speaking or be a leader. I am very happy being a peasant in the work hierarchy ensconced in my little cubicle. I decided they could either deal with my bad meeting facilitation – play stupid games, win stupid prizes – or fire me if it was that important. They choose to suffer through my presentation skills.

    9. Mr. Natural*

      There are a number of helpful suggestions from other AAM folks here, probably better than mine. I might be tempted to give a very brief presentation about why I am resigning, effective immediately.

  150. Another Cover Sheet Question*

    Quotes in cover sheets – NOT famous quotes but a quote from a manager praising a project in a specific way. Incorporate as a direct quote or no direct quote and just use as part of explaining positive result/feedback received?

    1. Princess Scrivener*

      If it were me, I would say something like, “I was recognized by my manager for my [adjective] [adjective] work on our / my [name of] project.” Or if you’re not into passive lingo, “My manager recognized my … “

  151. Jackers*

    This is just a rant. I am a sales analyst and a large portion of my day is ad hoc report requests for sales histories. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone telling me the data isn’t right, but not able to indicate why they think so. Was it too high? Was it too low? Was the date range not right? Were you expecting to see Llama sales and got surprised by Yak sales? Give me something to research, people! In today’s example when I told them I needed more information to go on, they repeated the original request. Which doesn’t help in the slightest. Tear my hair out. TGIF.

    1. Nanobots*

      AGGGGGGGGH Yes this. I’m a system analyst, and I’m constantly fighting the incorrect perception that our data isn’t correct. But it’s just a vague notion, and no one can give concrete answers about why they think it isn’t right. “That’s not the correct average for Time to Fill.” Why do you think that? “It just doesn’t seem right.”

      sighhhhhh

  152. Environmental Compliance*

    Everything’s in for my QEP cert application. I’ve been studying up a storm. Both nervous and excited for it!

  153. What's with Today, today?*

    I want to know if I handled this well:

    For context: I’m a low-level manager in a small market, family-owned media business. I’m the only member of management that isn’t family and got promoted in January. I’m hoping to move up another level in the next year, and am on track to do so. I’m trying to work on and improve my management skills.

    A co-worker that I don’t directly manage thought I had failed to do something the other day that would impact her work(What she thought I hadn’t done was supposed to be on the radio). She sent me a nasty text and included my boss (who we both report too) on it. I responded calmly that I had done the thing and it had aired. I told her we’d listen to the recording when she got in if she had any other questions about it. She replied that she did want to hear the recording but she had already heard the broadcast, so she knew what had and had not aired. At that point my boss (who unbeknownst to co-worker had gone to go see his aunt who’d suffered a massive heart attack that morning) stepped in and said he’d be back soon and we’d have a conversation instead of texting. End of text thread.

    He comes in, asks me what is going on, I tell him, tell him I did the thing and had it marked so the co-worker could hear it when she got in. I added that while this is the first time she’s attached him, I get texts like that regularly and I’m tired of it. That’s true. He says he’ll handle it.

    My co-worker comes in, I play the recording for her and guess what? She realizes she is wrong and I did, in fact, do the thing. I asked her to let our boss know since she’d attached him to the text. She, to her credit, did and was in his office for about 20 minutes. She then came out and actually apologized.

    I have no idea what the boss said to her, as I never asked him. I never brought it up again, 100% dropped the issue and moved on. I also didn’t tell anybody else about it, which is kind of a common thing in my office, especially when it comes to this co-worker as she’s not well-liked.

    Did I handle this correctly?

    2. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      Sounds good for the most part. I get the sense that your boss didn’t think handling this over a text message was the most effect. If he’s like me, if this was not urgent I would have preferred to see the two of you actually talking about this not in texts or emails. But that is my preference. It is how I operate and sadly I propably judge you through that frame.

      The other change I would make is that I would have said to the boss, that that you would discuss the texts with your coworker and see if there is a better way to handle it. The “, I get texts like that regularly and I’m tired of it.” feels like a complaint/vent which is fine. But offering to talk to her about it shows you are willing to try to fix it before leaving it for him to address.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        Thank you! I appreciate this insight . I didn’t like the text either and wish I had waited. I was still on the air, and she caught me so off guard I replied in the moment. I wish I hadn’t. When it comes to her doing this regularly. I admit, I did want him to mention to her to stop with the texts. He knew this was an issue some months back and wanted me to handle it ”in the moment, ” (he’s remote a few months every year, and he was remote then). I’ve done that and she still does it. Since she tacked him onto the text, and isn’t my report, it seemed like a decent time to ask for resourceI, but I like your suggestion.

  154. ShowMeTheMoney*

    I need advice on negotiating a job offer.

    I’m a website designer/developer and have freelanced full time for the last 3 years. I recently started considering going back to a full time role and have received an offer from a creative agency. I was/am excited about the position, but the salary seems extremely low.

    They offered me $40,000. I will get 15 PTO days and will also be able to work from home 3 days a week.

    We’re relocating to a small city in Iowa of about 40k people, so it’s been tough to research salaries for a position like this. I looked at a nearby university and the offer is a little higher than the starting salaries for similar positions there, but the university offers amazing benefits and the agency’s are pretty terrible.

    I would be much happier with $45k and while it’s still lower than I’d like, I know salaries in the area are much lower than what I’m used to. I do have a lot of skills and experience outside of the job description that they seemed very excited about.

    My question is this: if I want $45k, should I ask for $48k or does that seem unreasonably high compared to the original offer?

    If anyone has any idea about what a creative agency website designer/developer with 5 years of experience should make in a small Midwestern city, I would also really appreciate it!

    1. Midwe$t*

      $40,000. I will get 15 PTO days and will also be able to work from home 3 days a week – decent offer from what I have seen (currently in the Midwest and have experience with agencies specifically in Iowa).

      Definitely ask for more though. Will you accept 40k? If not, then might as well go for the 48k and see what happens. If you are willing to accept 40k but want more & are afraid they will take back the offer that is trickier. I would probably approach that along the lines of I was seeking closer to 48k, what kind of flexibility do you have to bridge the gap?

    2. Qwerty*

      That salary sounds low for an experienced hire. In a small city with a low cost of living it that sounds more in line for a candidate whose experience is limited to their college degree.

      From what I’ve been able to tell, universities tend to pay lower salaries for developers, so they aren’t great points of reference. Look up the cost of living index for the city and try finding other cities with about the same cost of living. You can use those to expand your data set on salaries.

      Would you be working on the agency’s website or are they contracting you out to clients? If its the latter, they may be trying to find low cost talent so they can offer lower prices for services to their clients, which can also affect long term potential for raises.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Ask for the $48k. Most places expect people to negotiate, and the worst they can say is they don’t have that in the budget.

  155. yala*

    …sigh…
    I feel like I just can’t win. It seems like every day, or multiple times a day, there’s something else I’m doing wrong. Or maybe not even wrong, just not the way my boss wants it to be done. And it’s not like she doesn’t make mistakes. (eg: forgetting items that had been brought to her with a question for over a year, then getting mad at me for not asking about them sooner)(or checking the completely wrong record for my work and just about giving me a heart attack over there being errors I KNEW I had fixed, then seeming angry with me for pointing out that it wasn’t the right record).

    And I have so many questions, but it’s hard to even ask them. Yesterday when she brought back some work with notes and I asked for clarification on one, she just said: “It’s on that thing I gave you,” all brusque and dismissive. (Reader, it was not on “that thing she gave me,” as far as I can tell, and it’s a simple question to answer but…no.)

    I love what I do, but I hate being stressed all the time because I’m always worried about what the next thing I thought I did right is gonna come at me.

    Doesn’t help that there’s a noticeable difference in her tone speaking to me than the rest of the department.

    …anyway…

    I know, the real answer is I just need to focus and do my research and try to get everything as By The Book as possible. If I don’t make stupid mistakes, then I don’t get in trouble for them.

    1. Buttons*

      Don’t be so hard on yourself. She has you so on edge, it is likely contributing to you making mistakes. I don’t know what kind of work you do so it is hard to offer any coaching, but my first suggestion is always document processes and then have someone validate it. Good luck!

    2. Shoes On My Cat*

      This may be unpleasant to hear, but your boss is a jerk and may not like you. She keeps moving the goal posts and it sounds like you are no longer confident that your version of doing good work matches her *expressed* expectations. You might be knocking it out of the ballpark and she might be pissed that you did! If you can find it in you to job search, please get started! If nothing else, it will force you to focus on something else, and before she destroys your confidence in your work. Sorry!!!

  156. Me--over it*

    *sigh*
    One recruiter from a company I applied to in BiggerCity called me. She said the job I’d applied to was entry level, that my skills were better than that, and would I be interested in a different job? I looked at the other job on their website while we were on the phone, and of course, it involved much higher proficiency in Excel than my dyscalculia allows. I can’t fricking win. No responses from any other long-distance applications.

    My realtor called after someone looked at the house the other day and said they were interested. They called the house “adorable” and asked me questions about the neighborhood, etc. — their viewing took longer than their realtor said it would, and they were still here lingering when I came home (a good sign?). They also left me a really nice note. It would be great if someone who wants to love it bought it, but since it needs work, I’m not going to get enough from a sale to move somewhere and then look for a job.

    If there is a way to avoid moving in with my relative in BiggerCity, which I don’t want to do, I haven’t thought of it. The only way would be if someone out of state hired me. Relative said she would help me move if that happened before the house sells and I could pay her back out of the house money. I don’t want that either, but if it would get me the hell out of here, I’ll do it.

    I’ve given up applying to jobs here in SmallerCity. No one is responding. It has been nearly three years now. No one anywhere is ever going to respond.

    1. Weegie*

      It might take some time, but you *will* get a job. The fact that someone is calling up to offer you something, even if it’s not right for you, means that the ball is rolling. Hang tight – you’ll get there.

  157. Savannnah*

    Just getting back into working after a year hiatus. I went from working a 60 hour salary job to a part time hourly job and I have no idea how to track my hours. Do I just put in for hours that I’m physically at work? Do I somehow include things like phone calls, emails, follows and online training at home? If so what’s reasonable? Other team members are all on salary so I don’t think they take these calls or training into consideration. I have an app for keeping track of time but it seems silly to report 15-20 min or even less.

    1. Overeducated*

      When I had a part time and partially remote job, 15 minutes was around my threshhold for starting to count and report. But when there were a lot of shorter interruptions when I was, say, at the playground with my toddler, I did tell my boss that as a part time hourly person I couldn’t maintain full time availability and he might have to wait a bit for responses sometimes, which he understood.

    2. AccountantWendy*

      I mean, I want to be paid for all time I work. So if you’re doing work from home, you should be submitting for those hours.

  158. Overeducated*

    I posted last week about feeling cut out by a coworker with some history. Was going to address just with my boss. Felt so randomly blindsided by an email this week I wound up going straight to coworker’s office and said “hey why aren’t you updating me on things that relate to my work until it’s a done deal and you’re announcing to a crowd?” Coworker said “oh just this thing? Forgot I didn’t tell you,” I said “no, this other project too,” and coworker responded “wow sorry I didn’t realize, excuse timing excuse, will try to keep you more up to date.”

    I feel MUCH better, honestly. If we are both being honest and saying things that can be taken at face value, which I hope is true, we had a communication issue that coworker is now aware of, and I said thank you for listening. If coworker is actually being manipulative, well, I guess I just exposed weakness but we have bigger issues. I think addressing it directly did help me with the workload/planning discussion I had with my new boss the next day, because I went in able to be forward-looking and propose where I thought I could make distinct contributions, instead of insecure and focused on interpersonal concerns.

  159. sunshyne84*

    We’re finally getting a new supervisor after well over a year, but still a few months until they actually start. I wonder how my team will change. Hopefully she’s as nice as the last one.

  160. TurboVicki*

    I am probably too late, but I have an odd predicament…:

    A coworker sits on my floor near my team, but does not work on my team. We have space issues in the office, so moving is probably not an option. Here’s the thing, she has had a cough for…6 months. When I say cough, I mean one of those forceful, painful sounding coughs that sounds like she is about to throw up. She coughs like this roughly 10-15 times a day, and has…for half a year. We have asked her if she is OK, does she need anything, has she seen a doctor? and her answer is always “Oh I just have bad allergies, it’ll clear up!” Well, it hasn’t, and honestly her cough is not only incredibly distracting, but I find it VERY nauseating. Her boss has nothing to do with my team, and my boss has nothing to do with her team.

    What can we do here?…

    2. Joielle*

      Can you wear headphones? Aside from that, not much. If you’re talking to her and she starts coughing, you could offer her a cough drop… and I guess you could ask to have your desk moved somewhere else, but if you sit with your team, that’s probably not practical. You definitely cannot ask the coughing coworker to stop coughing.

    3. Mama Bear*

      I have a relative who has been through a lot of doctors and they keep being told their bad cough is “allergies”. I hate it as a family member, so I am sure it is horrible as a coworker. If I said anything, it might be limited to “have you tried an air purifier?” She might honestly be reacting to something in the building.

      1. TurboVicki*

        It is definitely possible! We have changed cleaning materials and she does have an air purifier, but nothing seems to help. I think my response came off as negative, I am not angry at her for coughing! The sound is unpleasant, but I know she isn’t coughing at me on purpose. I just imagine it is a horrible thing to go through and we would like to try and help! We can wear headphones and I do, I just am not sure what else I can try to make things easier.

        1. Ismis*

          I kept getting bad coughs and it turned out to be a slight touch of asthma. I get a prescription for an asthma preventer in winter and it really helps.

          I’m not sure if you feel comfortable enough to suggest it, but maybe worth a go?

    4. Remote Cat Herder*

      Something to consider: She may have a chronic illness that she doesn’t want to disclose to her coworkers. For example, when you described her cough, it brought to mind Cystic Fibrosis. If it is indeed because of an illness/disability she doesn’t want to disclose, then she’s probably really stressed out about how much attention she is receiving for the cough.

      What you can “do here” is….nothing. It’s her body. It sucks that it distracts you but all you can do is try to block it out with headphones.

  161. Shoes On My Cat*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any advice -or stories!…I’m not alone?-on an age perception problem that I keep running up against? I’m getting frustrated by people’s impression of me as too young to know enough to be in a senior leadership position with the authority to coach them. Some people I can reason with as to why my x is better in our niche of the industry than their y, but others push back and refuse to adjust *specifically* because they think I’m too young to take seriously. I’m in my late forties but have great DNA, am in really good shape physically & started wearing sunscreen about a decade before my age group got serious about it, so my skin and body don’t match most people’s perceptions of forty-somethings. (I get “mid twenties” for the most part.) I dress in the manner of our bosses, I use the same verbiage & phrasing as my age group & refer to the movies & such of my generation now & then. FWIW, my bosses also demonstrate a very dynamic energy level, but their hair is starting to grey so while they are perceived as MUCH younger than they are, they get put into the “have experience plus are owners” category. (When I say dynamic energy levels =>They have worked twenty-somethings into the ground who try to keep up.) Eventually most realize that what I say works, and really don’t care about age once I’ve proven my competence. I hate to lose some staff because they don’t work out-because they won’t follow instructions, when otherwise they should be great staff members. On rare occasions I will mention my forty-year old younger brother, but that only helps with the ones willing to do math and revise their first impressions. Does anyone out there have suggestions to speed up this process other than walking up to new people and saying “Hello, my name is Shoes and I’m forty-seven.”? Or dying my hair grey? (As a side note, I actually had one person lecture me saying that when I get to be her age, I wouldn’t have so much energy, either. I was four years her senior! WTF!)

    1. Buttons*

      UGGG Who the heck do they think they are? And so what if you were a 20-something, you were hired to do the job because your boss knows your qualifications and experience, and felt you are competent to do the job.
      I had a Director ask me “How are you qualified to assess X as Y.” I gave him the “are you f-ing kidding me look” and said “How are you qualified to be a director in X department? I assume that (his boss’ name) hired you because you are qualified to do your job, and you need to trust that (CEO’s name) hired me because I am qualified to do this. I will not stand up here and give you a rundown of my resume and education. If you don’t want to be here or do what (CEO’s name) has asked me to direct you on, please feel free to give him a call.”
      AS$hole.

      1. Buttons*

        Sorry, that wasn’t really helpful, but it got my blood boiling. I am just going into a meeting, but I will try to reply to your actual question after. LOL!

      2. Parenthetically*

        Yes! Love the absolute no-BS wording of this.

        This has me seeing red too. Unbelievably rude.

        1. Buttons*

          That is one of those great things that comes with age. In fact, it might be the only thing I like about being over 40. I don’t have to take BS, he isn’t my boss, he isn’t my employee. I work for the CEO, not him. He can s!ck it. HA!

    2. Parenthetically*

      WOW. You have people who report to you who are pushing back because they think you’re too young?

      I honestly think you’re putting too much mental energy into the “I do look young, what can I add to my persona to change people’s perception of me” part of this when the problem isn’t with you at all. The behavior you’re describing, in my opinion, deserves a rebuke, not a re-crafting of your image.

      “Is there a reason you are assuming I don’t know what I’m talking about?” or “For this working relationship to be successful, it’s important that you recognize that I’m in this role because I know my stuff. I appreciate feedback on X, Y, and Z, but for the purposes of a cordial and productive working relationship, assume from this point on that I’m in senior leadership because of my experience and expertise.” Adjust tone and verbiage to suit the level of pushback and your relationship with the person.

        1. Mama Bear*

          I like something like this. I wonder if it’s also worse for women – I have a friend with a PhD and she gets more side-eye about her expertise than someone her age should, I suspect because she is both youthful and a woman.

          1. Buttons*

            It is worse for women and people of color. It is called Performance Attribution Bias. Performance Bias is where the dominate group is evaluated on their POTENTIAL, where the minority is evaluated on their accomplishments and past performance. So when this happens we are already assuming one group is going to better perform than the other. competent. And the minority group has to prove themselves to be competent, where the dominant group is assumed to be competent.
            A good example is The US orchestra, they noticed more men were being picked in the first round of auditions. So they put a curtain up- to do a blind audition, U.S. orchestras revealed women’s odds of making it past the first round of auditions increased 50% with blind auditions. Some groups have taken it further and make people remove their shoes because people were able to tell the difference between men’s and women’s shoes walking on the curtained stage.

            1. Shoes On My Cat*

              Editing to add, that YES this is a huge problem in my industry-even when the end clients are women. And the top high performers in our industry are split almost 50/50 by gender and yet, if a man gives the same comments as a woman, his are considered more legitimate. (My bosses and I have angry-joked about showing up to a presentation wearing a strap-on….It’s that bad.). What really gets me about most of the pushback people I have encountered is that most of them are also women!

      2. Shoes On My Cat*

        I really like the verbiage you & Buttons both brought up. I always feel like “duh, if my bosses didn’t think I was qualified, I wouldn’t be here”—is an automatic assumption people would have, so I shouldn’t have to reiterate that. Both of you agreeing these people are rude and deserve a verbal smackdown is an eye opener. The comment that I may be putting too much mental energy on appearance resonated with me, and I think may be why I was hesitant to call this type of behavior out, kind of a giving the benefit of the doubt. I’m going to work on that, I think it’s right on target. I also like Buttons’ ‘Are you fing kidding me look’ as well-I can adapt that into my response. Ya’ll are great and I appreciate both of you!

        1. Parenthetically*

          So glad it was helpful. It’s just fkn sexist as hell, to the point that it’s a gross sexist trope, to assume a young-looking woman could not POSSIBLY be sufficiently experienced or competent to be in a top position in a large company, so if nothing else these bozos need to be forcefully reminded that this is 2019 and decent humans are trying not to be That Guy anymore.

    3. tangerineRose*

      It sounds like you’re their boss or at least are in a position of authority over them. Can you push back based on this?

  162. ChimericalOne*

    I probably know the answer to this — but giving it a shot.

    I’m one of 4 people on my team. I’m having a Halloween party. Teammate A has been to my house before (we both like strategy board games). My boss’s wife is a close friend –I met her socially before I got this job — & my boss himself is cool, so they’re definitely coming, and I’d like to invite Teammate A. Another teammate, Teammate B, is really nice & she’s known our boss for a long, long time (I’d say they’re friends — they were coworkers before he became her boss). He’s an introvert & often does this “wander around by himself” thing at parties, but I think if Teammate B were there, he’d actually have a good time (someone to talk to besides his wife). I wouldn’t mind getting to know her better, myself.

    Teammate C is, well, fine. She’s nice. A little longwinded. Has very young kids. I wouldn’t normally go out of my way to chill with her, but I don’t want to make this a “everyone but C is invited” thing. Also, she probably wouldn’t come even if I invited her (see: kids + Halloween)? The party is definitely not kid-friendly, though, so if I invite her, I’d need to make that clear, I imagine. (Which is more awkward with someone you think is probably not coming — to tell them they can’t bring their kids — than someone you think is actually considering coming, because it’s a bit delicate to start with & can seem presumptuous to get into the “logistics” of things if they’re not terribly interested, anyway.)

    Anyway… I should still invite her, right? Should I do it in a kind of “you probably have other plans and we’re not super kid-friendly, sorry, but we’d love you to come if you can” kind of way? Or how do I frame this? (I just don’t want to make it awkward for either of us…)

    For additional context — this is going to be a pretty big party. I’ve got a bunch of friends from outside work who have RSVP’d, so it’s unlikely that I’ll get to spend much time with any individual person there.

    1. Maiu*

      Invite her and include a “sorry, this party it too spooky for kids!” line to keep it friendly.

    2. Parenthetically*

      “I’m sure you’re doing something kid-friendly with your little ones, but I’d love for you to stop by yourself if you have a chance!”

    3. AccountantWendy*

      ” Or how do I frame this? (I just don’t want to make it awkward for either of us…)”

      Just invite her. You don’t have to frame it. “I’m hosting a Halloween party on X date at X time and would like to invite you and a guest. Sorry, this party is too spooky for kids! Please RSVP by Y date.” You’re right it’s presumptuous to get into logistics. And while you do need to make it clear if children are invited or not (I get invites all the time which specify if children are or are not welcome), you can do that without making assumptions about whether someone will or won’t attend, or whether someone does or doesn’t have kids. Be straightforward and cheerful about the invitation and let them be straightforward and cheerful about their reply, even if that is “Thanks but I won’t be attending.”

      This also means you can invite all 3 co-workers using one email, which might make a point of showing you’re including her in the group and could be appreciated even if the invitation is declined.

  163. Poorly Managed*

    I work on a team without about 8 staff people (including myself), 4 managers, and then the partner at the very top. Three of the managers are lovely; the fourth is just not. He doesn’t really fit in well with the culture of either the firm or our specific team, and a lot of my team members have complained that he’s all hot air and doesn’t actually have a lot of the substantive technical knowledge he needs. Well, he must’ve gotten some feedback from the partner about being a bad manager, because he now wants to have a meeting with all 8 of us staff members to solicit feedback about how he can be a better manager. I guess I can appreciate him soliciting feedback, but a meeting with the whole team like this seems really inappropriate. I don’t think anyone is going to give him honest feedback in this setting, if at all. Do I have to go??

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Since BadFitManager is above you in the hierarchy, probably yes. Is the setup that you have one direct manager, who has three colleagues? If your relationship with DirectManager strong, you may be able to talk to DirectManager and say, “I have some reservations about this” and hopefully DirectManager will be on-board with talking to their colleague.

      Even better if you can get the other staff on board with saying, “This seems like a waste of time.”

  164. Maiu*

    Anyone else in hiring hate LinkedIn Generated Resumes? For me, they scream “I’m not even interested in doing the bare minimum.” Thoughts?

  165. Futhark the Runic alphabet*

    A real-world story out of Austin on how not to hire people. (Names changed but you can Google the copy and get the story. I don’t want to post a link)

    Intern Applicant applied for a position at a marketing company KAM. KAM went to the Intern Applicants’ social media and took her bikini photo for their use. KAM posted an Instagram Story said: “PSA (because I know some of you applicants are looking at this): do not share your social media with a potential employer if this is the kind of content on it. I am looking for a professional marketer — not a bikini model. Go on with your bad self and do whatever in private. But this is not doing you any favors in finding a professional job.”

    Intern applicant called out the move, via Twitter, saying she was “baffled” by the company’s decision. Intern Applicant responded to the company on Instagram, saying she had archived its story and, “I appreciate your advice.” KAM responded, “You are welcome. Remember that everything that you put on social is public and future potential employers will see it. Best of luck in your job search!”

    Intern Applicant asked the company to take the Instagram story down via email, to which the company replied, “Best of luck.” Intern Applicant has since been blocked by the company on Instagram.

    KAM’s founder said that the Intern Applicant bikini photo did not disqualify her. “The woman in question was not disqualified because of her social media profile. In fact, she was not disqualified at all. There was no communication to her saying she was disqualified.”

    Intern Applicant said she was initially interested in KAM because “it was founded by women” and “seemed to support women in business.”

    KAM has since gone quiet online, shutting down its website and accounts on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Its Instagram has been made private.

    Intern Applicant, “It seemed they didn’t believe there would be repercussions for their action.”

    1. Nanobots*

      Not very kickass of them.

      I’m glad they’re being blasted all over the internet. How wretched.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yep this was posted earlier this week and I’m rolling in the their reputation that’s all stained up with how it went viral.

  166. Jaid*

    My sister-in-law’s bestie got stuck in an elevator at work for two hours, last month with the lights off. Today, my BFF was using the bathroom at work when the light went off.

    My Mom gets me weird little gadgets for Hanukkah and one of them is a quarter sized LED flashlight that I hooked onto my badge lanyard. I am prepared, yo.

    1. Joielle*

      That’s a great idea! My mom is also into weird little gadgets and I have more tiny flashlights than I know what to do with.

  167. Nanobots*

    I’ve been wondering what ever happened with Gibberish Calendar man! I hope he never finds a job.

    I something think about transitioning into recruiting. Then I talk to recruiters and get these crazy stories, and quash that idea. I freeze up in absurd situations. And I hate talking on the phone. So yeah, I’ll just keep maintaining their software and letting them do the magic of interacting with candidates.

    1. Nanobots*

      oops, double post. Was supposed to be in reply to MsChanandlerBong October 4, 2019 at 11:52 am

  168. Shiny Onix*

    I had a meeting with a manager this week in which they kind of obliquely implied they hadn’t noticed previously that I was any good and that they’re going to make sure I get some good development opportunities soon. Hurrah!

  169. Little Beans*

    I’m not sure what to do about someone (let’s call them Pericles) who is complaining about my unit, but not to me, and is incorrect in their complaint. Essentially Pericles is telling others that my unit was supposed to assist with a project and was not helpful when needed (the project is 100% Pericles’ responsibility, but they had helped us out with a different project in the past, and felt that we owed them some assistance in return). The truth is that I actually contacted Pericles’ supervisor TWICE and offered to help even though the project was not our responsibility, because I knew how overwhelmed Pericles was – the supervisor thanked me for the offer and said she would let us know if there was anything we could do. I never heard anything more.

    In every personal interaction I’ve had with Pericles, they have seemed overwhelmed but perfectly nice – I had no idea they were harboring ill will toward our unit until I started hearing from others. Should I talk to them directly? Go back to the supervisor?

    2. Asenath*

      This sort of thing is best handled in the moment – eg if you are in a meeting and someone says “Unfortunately, Little Beans’ group didn’t help us although it was there responsibility” you could speak right up and say “Actually, it isn’t our responsibility, but we did ask Pericles’ supervisor twice if we could help, didn’t we Fergus?” It sound like you’re going on third-hand gossip. Ideally, you’d get both Pericles and the supervisor together and say that you are terribly concerned because you’ve heard rumours that they thought you hadn’t been helpful….wait for a response, and then, if they admit that they did think that, point out that you had offered, even though it wasn’t your responsibility to do so. If they say they didn’t complain, accept it and act as though you think it was just gossip, even if you don’t really.

    3. Shoes On My Cat*

      Gently let Pericles know what you offered and left it with their supervisor. Then let it go. You don’t want a bad rep in your company, but don’t want to make an enemy of the supervisor by getting into it.

  170. Zephy*

    Vent: A couple of weeks ago I posted in the open thread about a training I went to, where they gave us pre- and post-tests and then forwarded our scores to TPTB, despite the fact that maybe a third of the information covered actually applies to my particular site. Yesterday my boss told me how I did on the assessments – 0% on the pre-test, 31% on the post-test. Yikes. According to her, though, my scores were about average for our team. Double yikes!

    I asked my boss what would be done with this information, she shrugged. I asked if they provided any actionable feedback (“Zephy has X down pat but needs further training on Y”), she said no. I had to drive an extra two hours each way to attend this training that could have been a video recording for all it mattered, and they can’t even give us back the graded tests??? I worked an 11-hour day for my employee file to reflect a score of 31% on the post test with no further context? I’d be even more upset if I’d had to spend my own gas to get to the training, so at least there’s that.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Yeah, that’s nuts – they should have given you guys feedback along with the scores. I attended a week long training program back when I was a property claims adjuster, and we had the pre-test and post-training test as well – everyone got feedback on where they came up short. Our post-training scores were also much higher than what it sounds like your team averaged (the lowest we had was in the high 80s). It sounds like whoever did your training needs training on how to be more effective in their teaching.

  171. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

    How bad does it have to be to quit without something else lined up? I’ve had this job since June. I’ve had several other short stints and I’m not sure a year here will make up for it, but I’m already starting to mess up and be overwhelmed.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      How bad it has to be depends on your resources and options. How competitive are you in the job market? How long will your savings stretch, and do you have other sources of income to tide you over while you job-hunt?

    2. Colette*

      Is this usually what happens for you? I.e. you start a job and are struggling a few months in? Is the problem this job, or all jobs? Are you struggling because you are in the wrong field or because you don’t ask the right questions or because you end up in jobs that don’t play to your strength?

      How long can you live without a job? What are your plans if you quit without a job?

      Do you have short stints because you’ve worked temp jobs, or because you have trouble sticking with a job?

      Quitting without having something else lined up is sometimes the best option, but if it’s a pattern or if you have struggle to stay in a job after you get over the initial “Yay, I have a job!” rush, then that’s something to discuss with a therapist.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I’m in the wrong field. I’m an introvert who hates stress in an extrovert who loves stress field. I got fired from my first llama wrangling job, right after llama wrangling school. I got fired from teapot pouring too. My employment history is a mess, but I don’t want to hang on here until they have to fire me from this combination llama wrangling/llama herding job. I’ve never herded llamas before and the llamas really don’t want to be herded.

    3. Natalie*

      What have you tried to deal with the overwhelmedness and mistakes already? Or is “quit” your first instinct?

    4. Pam Beesly*

      It really depends. Financially, if your savings can stretch you a few months, you can leave without anything lined up. Be aware though, the fact that you’ve had several short stints may make it more difficult to find a new job. If you feel like you can manage staying in this position until you find something else, that’s obviously ideal.

  172. Not Quite Panicking*

    I’m in my first job out of college but I’m thinking about moving on after almost two years. I joined an engineering consultancy firm thinking that the project based work would allow me to “see the world”, so to speak. What happened was I’ve only ever worked on one “project”, which is to provide staffing support to a client’s project management team. My role on the project has been to provide low-visibility and non-technical “support” (these terms are actually used in the description for the role), which means I’ve spent the vast majority of my time “being available to provide support” or, once a month, executing simple tasks as part of our monthly reporting routine.

    I’m the only one in my role, and it was a new role. I do not own the things that I work with, I only perform the entry, export, and lookup for others so that they don’t have to do it themselves. I am also not allowed to attend any of the meetings that my work would be relevant to. None of the things I do are time consuming or complex, or require any special skills beyond computer literacy.

    Although my two managers are not involved in my work I’ve spoken to them many times about my extreme underutilization, but nothing has ever changed. No new responsibilities, or even tasks, or being assigned to another project. It’s become clear to me that this a not a path of achievement or growth.

    So, how do I even write a cover letter? “No one has told me I’m doing a bad job, and I probably save people an hour or two each month” isn’t very impressive. I’ve got the “why I want to move on” down, I just have nothing to put for “here’s all these accomplishments and achievements and praise the show why I’m awesome.”

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Don’t underestimate the value of having almost two years of “showing up and doing your job.” I’ve worked with a decent number of employees fresh out of school and just knowing the norms of how to work in an office is…not as common as you might think.

      Focus on the accuracy of your work, how you maintained/completed a task independently*, and familiarity with specific functions of the program you use. The cover letter can be a little more generic in early stage career applicants, I think. More about, “This is why I’m excited for this opportunity.”

      *I’ve had too many instances when I think to myself, “We’ve been over this six times now. Why do you need me to go over this with you again?”

  173. AliV*

    What was my mistake here?

    Several months ago I took a newly-created, internal position. One of the main responsibilities of the new job is taking over a large annual project. This project is in its first year, and is currently being managed by my grandboss. By creating this job part of the idea was to get this project off the grandboss’s plate. The project has a big deadline in a few weeks.

    After starting in this new job, I anticipated that, for this first year, I would be somewhat involved in the project as a way to “pass the baton” to me for future years. Perhaps I’d be copied on emails, included in meetings, or asked to handle specific tasks.

    None of this has happened. I’ve brought it up a few times to my boss that I haven’t heard anything about this project, that I’m happy to help however I can, and he says that he’ll pass along the message. It didn’t feel right to leap over my boss’s head and go right to the grandboss. I asked another team member if she had any idea what might be going on with this project, and unfortunately she mentioned my question to grandboss. Now she tells me that grandboss is mad about why I just didn’t go to him if I had questions or wanted to get involved. She feels bad for saying anything.

    Should I have been more forceful with my boss? Gone to the grandboss? Kept my mouth shut and waited for further instruction?

    1. Close Bracket*

      You should ask grandboss how he wants you to communicate. Go to him and say you were a little confused about the chain of command and thought direction would pass through your manager, but now that you are clear that he wants you to go directly to him, ask him if there is anything you should do differently regarding getting direction from Boss.

    2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      I don’t think you made one, or at least not a big one. I think your manager should have been more proactive in helping to set and/or manage expectations as part of your onboarding in the new role, and your grandboss should have been understanding of why you’d be reluctant to leapfrog your boss. But it sounds a bit like nobody is really clear on what’s going on (especially the “if you wanted to get involved” bit, which is a strange thing to say if the position was CREATED to manage the project – duh you should be involved this year), so of course the confusion is trickling down to you. It doesn’t sound like you’re in a position to clear up that kind of ambiguity singlehandedly.

      So, no fault of yours, but assuming this is all relatively open and not he-said-she-said, sending a smoothing-over email to grandboss and cc’ing your boss maybe wouldn’t be the worst thing. “I mentioned something in passing to Sansa and I was reticent to ask you directly, knowing how busy you are. I didn’t mean to put her in an awkward position or go around you – sorry about that! If you’d like to discuss your expectations of my role and how I can be involved in the project this year, I’d be happy to.”

    3. Kes*

      I mean, if grandboss is running the project, and you’re supposed to take over from them, I’m not sure how you would avoid talking to them directly, and why you assumed that should go through your boss. I would have just gone and talked to them, especially when you didn’t hear anything – hey, I know the goal is for me to help and take over this project, when you get some time can you fill me in on it and how things are going. In fact, I probably would still do that now, maybe just apologize for getting off on the wrong foot and say you weren’t sure if they were too busy but you would like to learn more about it and how you can start involved

      1. AliV*

        Because it’s my grandboss I’ve been waiting for him to take the lead on the transition plan…I know he’s swamped and sometimes onboarding someone new is the last thing you want when feeling overwhelmed. Also we don’t really have much of a relationship-maybe I hear from him once a month about something specific, but beyond that no interaction. We are such a hierarchical place too that it makes me feel very uncomfortable to be the one to initiate a conversation.

  174. My Brain Is Exploding*

    This doesn’t really answer your question, but… although the charities you mention prefer cash, could you call them to see what they could use that’s not cash? We have had luck doing that. It may not be something you expect (like office supplies) but something they budget for or something extra they’d like that isn’t in their budget.

  175. UPDATE-Just had a really uncomfortable interaction with our postal carrier*

    Wanted to update on my post from last week and thank everyone who commented. I read them all. Here was my original post:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/09/open-thread-september-27-28-2019.html#comment-2666841

    I hadn’t planned on telling my boss and was going to just try to handle it myself initially, but realized I needed to let her know I would no longer be taking the mail so she could be checking it. She had already picked up on the fact that he seemed to be seeking me out. I felt comfortable going ahead and telling her and also about the boundary I was laying down. She was extremely supportive. She said it is definitely not my job to be taking it anyways and he should be putting it in the inbox. Immediately found a large piece of poster board to put over my glass so that you cannot see anything at all. She also made the suggestion to perhaps change up the sign I was using to something like on conference call or whatever so that there would be no indications as to my state of undress. She started looking to see if there was another space to move the inbox as well, although the way our building is configured, that would be difficult. We decided to see if me laying down the boundary would help. I am not ready to escalate it yet. But she said if anything else occurs at all, she will call his supervisor and rather than detail my complaints, make it a generic “he is talking to the staff too much.” I realize other people probably think it should be detailed, but I feel safer with this approach as I do fear retaliation and this way I have plausible deniability.

    As far as he is concerned, he only comes 3 days a week. The first day he came, I happened to have my door closed taking a phone call. The board was not yet on my door and I did want the chance to tell him it needed to go in the inbox. I cracked it, told him to put it in the inbox and shut down any further attempts at conversation by saying a polite thanks and promptly shutting the door. The other 2 days, I figured out the time he would arrive and decided to go ahead and pump again with my new boarded off door and alternative sign up. There were no further disturbances and when I was finished, I saw the mail was in the inbox where it should be. So for now, it seems like the method has worked, so I am calling it a success so far.

    1. Llellayena*

      If it happens again and your boss calls his boss, “he’s talking to the staff too much” is NOT enough to get anything done about it. She should try something closer to “he’s harassing women in the office regularly.” This doesn’t point it specifically at you, but does present the heart of the problem.

      1. valentine*

        She should try something closer to “he’s harassing women in the office regularly.”
        Yes. If there’s a difference in races and he is not white, it would just paint you as a racist office and shed doubt on future details.

        With your manager onboard so fantastically, I don’t know why you don’t try to get this guy out of your building altogether.

  176. I'm A Little Teapot*

    I’m seriously debating calling HR and reporting a manager’s verbal abuse. Multiple people have escalated to department management, and while I know that there could be stuff happening behind the scenes, the behavior isn’t getting better.

    Example:
    Today, right before lunch, my coworker asked me a question about how to do something. I explained. Conversation is collaborative, friendly, we respect each other, etc. Coworker then goes to the manager to confirm the approach. Manager’s response just sounds aggressive, the words are fine, but it’s how the words are said. Voice volume is much higher, placing heavy emphasis on all the words, allows for no questions. It feels like your mom scolding a child “are we CLEAR?”

    Yeah, this is one example. But it literally happens every day, every interaction. For months. The daily status meetings (which are overkill, different story) – they’re referred to as the daily beatings by all the staff. Even people who never work with this manager notice it and don’t want to interact with her.

    So I’m considering calling. I know who to call, I’ve actually interacted with them before for work related stuff (I’m an auditor). I know at this point it’s the right thing to do, because other options have been tried and we’re not seeing change. I’m just having a hard time actually doing it.

    1. Please be careful*

      Sounds to me like you should hold off, don’t call. Based on what you typed, it doesn’t sound as if it would go well for you. I say wait

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I’m not concerned about retaliation, it just feels very odd to initiate that sort of conversation with an auditee. I have no reason to think that HR wouldn’t take it seriously, in fact, I believe they would. I think my hesitation is that it feels awkward, and also I could be seriously jeopardizing someone’s job. That’s a big thing. I don’t want to be wrong.

  177. Majestic Space Whale*

    Thanks everyone for your helpful input from last week! I have concluded the first week at the new job and I am happy to report that everybody involved is still alive. It has certainly been interesting. I am dealing with lots of starting-a-new-job paperwork (we have LOTS of that where I’m from) and getting all my software working and also, not getting lost constantly, with the latter proving to be quite a challenge. Dresscode turned out to be very casual, with “don’t look as a homeless person and dress a bit nicer when we have visitors” being pretty much the extent of it. It’s quite an adventure overall!

  178. Lx in Canada*

    Y’all who have anxiety or depression problems, did you find that cutting out caffeine helped a lot? I have been really struggling lately for some reason. It’s not my job, and my life, by all accounts, is really good! I just seem to live under a constant dark cloud/haze of anxiety and depression. I am currently awaiting some referrals to a psych and a group therapy thing, but that takes some time and I have burned through around 55 hours of sick time and 40 hours of vacation time since April on my mental health issues, and I am sick and tired of it. I am seriously debating cutting out caffeine, which I use to manage my migraines, but I can work even when I am having migraine medication side effects, whereas when I’m depressed/really stressed out it’s almost impossible for me not to go home. Any advice? I feel so broken all the time :( and I am out of sick time (we accrue 9.375 hours a month) and almost out of vacation time until April 1st next year (I have like 27 hours left or something)… Gah…

    Another thought I am having is figuring out the amount of money I need to cover all my essential bills and then perhaps going part-time (maybe 4 days a week rather than 5?), but I dunno about that one. I think I would be allowed to, but… gah, money, and stuff. Perhaps I could do a trial run of it for a few months… Anyone had any success with this?

    1. Pam Beesly*

      I struggle with depression and anxiety and cut out caffeine a couple months ago. Unfortunately, it didn’t help me. However, everyone is different and it could certainly be worth a try for you!

      Also, you have my sympathies on how you’re feeling. I know what it’s like to live under a constant dark cloud/haze of anxiety and depression – that’s a really good way of putting it.

      (also, I should mention a lot of my depression stems from reoccurent miscarriages, so cutting out caffeine may have/will in the future help me when the situation isn’t so raw.)

    2. Qwerty*

      Fellow migraine sufferer, but knowledge about anxiety/depression is limited to helping others manage theirs.

      Before cutting out caffeine, can you talk to your doctor about getting better medication for migraine management? That way you aren’t suffering from one condition while trying to treat another one. Meds that prevent migraines or make them less severe are becoming more available and insurance companies are loosening the requirements on being eligible for them. I think you just have to have tried a regular migraine treatment like a triptan. My doctors also tend to remind me that self-medicating with caffeine can cause rebound and withdrawal migraines. Chronic migraine sufferers have high rates of depression, so treating the migraines is often a way to reduce the depression.

      From the friends/family I’ve been close to, I’ve seen reducing caffeine help with anxiety but not depression, though I’ve only helped people who had one or the other, not both. I’m not sure if the anti-anxiety diet did much good or if it was just because it reminded them to actually eat regularly (caffeine drinks reduced appetite and not eating spiked their anxiety, which caused more soda drinking and continued the cycle)

      This might be a placebo, but magnesium is supposed to help both migraines and anxiety. It significantly reduced the severeness of my migraines (and my friends) and I’ve noticed much less anxiety in the family members who were prescribed magnesium pills by their doctor. Its an OTC supplement, or you can take a relaxing epsom salt bath, or there’s even lotions with it (inside of your arms and legs are the best for absorption). I use the lotion method because its like a mini self-massage before bed so I sleep better too.

    3. Tib*

      I like caffeine for my depression-related lethargy/decision-paralysis, and CBD tincture for my anxiety. CBD oil (as per my psychiatrist) also helps with focus. I use Bluebird Botanicals, which she recommended to me, and which is legal in my state and not psychoactive. Their sampler pack is quite affordable.

      Tbh I think the biggest potential pitfall of quitting caffeine will be if you have trouble quitting it, and then it becomes another thing to self-castigate about.

      Also – don’t underestimate what a difference the right medication can make. My meds absolutely saved my life, and are the reason I’m able to work and generally take care of myself. Good luck! and give yourself credit for doing the work to deal with it! Not easy when you’re, know, in immense amounts of psychic pain.

    4. Alianora*

      I don’t drink coffee because it exacerbated my anxiety every time I tried it. Your situation sounds a bit more complicated what with the migraines, but for me it definitely makes a difference.

    5. Anon today*

      I found that cutting out caffeine completely was actually worse for my depressiona and anxiety. I switched to half-caff and CBD oil.

    6. Shoes On My Cat*

      If it helps, I too use caffeine to help prevent/treat migraines-but I keep it to one cup of coffee/single shot latte each morning, sometimes a second cup before 2pm and if that doesn’t do the job, I can manage until I go home to my hard core prescription meds (rizatriptan). That way the caffeine doesn’t impact my sleep cycle or jump up my anxiety. -Uncontrollable migraines do jump up my anxiety a lot more! I’ve also had success with meditation (Try your local library for cd’s-I like the Ten Percent CD), not during a migraine but to help me chill out so I don’t get so many! Plus a stroll nearly every day, just to unwind. Hope you can find a combo that works for you!

    7. caffeiner*

      I’ve suffered from mild chronic depression for decades. Cutting out caffeine made me feel much worse. I’ve tried plenty of meds over the years, without much effect; I’m on Modafinil now and it helps a little.

  179. Anon today*

    Super late to this but hope I get some responses! Advice for when the person who was just hired to be your boss was your boss at your last job and you didn’t get along?

    I was laid off earlier this year. No hard feelings because it was purely a business decision during an acquisition, and the role was more specialized than I wanted long term. I had already decided I would only spend a max of 2 years there before trying to leave. Also, I did not get along well with my boss.

    After the lay off, I was quickly hired at a company in the same field in the same smallish city. Everything was great. My boss at the new company left a few months after I started for personal reasons, and now after another few months my boss from the previous job starts as my new boss next week.

    I called my EAP and am getting therapy through that but any strategies you have or links to AAM posts would be great. I have not and will not said anything negative about them and am being neutral (“You must be so excited to have them start!” “It will be nice to have a [department head] again.”) when coworkers require an answer. I am planning on making sure to document all verbal requests in writing by emailing back to make sure I understand what needs to be done. I will sit right by their office, my teammates are not in this office as buffer, and I work on a specialized project that takes a lot of boss and me time but has little input from the rest of our team.

    Any advice and commiseration are welcome. I don’t feel like I can leave the company until the big project is live next year but ideally I would last longer because otherwise it is a wonderful environment; nothing else at the company is suitable for my skills.

    1. Joielle*

      Ooo that’s a bummer. I’d say, optimistically, think of this as a chance to start fresh – maybe your old boss has made some changes, maybe the environment of the new company is more conducive to a better relationship, maybe they have more support from upper management or better mental health or whatever. But be on the lookout for the problems you used to have cropping up again, and do whatever you can to head them off – like your plan of documenting requests, I think that’s smart.

      If things start to go south, I can imagine coworkers coming to you to vent about their problems and ask what the boss was like at your last job. Try to resist the temptation to gossip – you don’t want to get sucked into a negative feedback loop and end up feeling worse than you need to.

      This situation kind of sucks but hopefully it’ll turn out just fine. Good luck!

    2. sacados*

      I think it really depends on what you mean by didn’t get along.
      This would be easier if you had been at this new company for longer, but since you’re still relatively new yourself you should tread carefully.
      Depends on your role/the company structure, but is there any possibility of you getting moved to a new team/manager? If so, you could try talking to your current interim manager, your boss’s boss, or someone senior like that who you trust (if there is such a person) and share something non-damaging and vague. Maybe say something like you had very different working styles/communication styles… something like that that isn’t badmouthing the new/old boss but makes a case for why it would not be effective to have you working under them?

      If not, and especially if you mean this boss was abusive or bullying in some way, then yeah– rely on your EAP as much as possible, take steps to protect yourself, and document.

  180. Llama Groomer's Wife*

    Writing in to the AAM commentariat on behalf of my husband since I value their knowledge so much!

    So last year, my husband was given being let go from his llama-grooming team leader position because of some drama with another llama-grooming team leader (it’s a llama dealership), and was given the choice to choose for himself whether they said that they fired him or if he quit. He chose to say he quit. During the ensuing months, they said he needed to pay back for some llama saddles he had, but he had cleared with his manager that it was okay to have the saddles before. He then brought up that they had stopped paying him his master groomer bonus he was told would be paid to him when he became a master groomer after being a lower-level groomer. The llama dealership then said that they would call it even then.

    However, the saddles new would cost less than $2,000 new, and the amount the llama dealership owed him was around $7,000. He had tried writing to the owner of the llama dealership about it, but he just kept saying they would get back to him, or he wouldn’t answer him. It has now been over a year, and we are going through personal situations where that money could seriously help.

    We spoke shortly with a local employment lawyer, and they said that our best bet is to just file a suit, that a lawyer would probably just charge us what we were hoping to get back anyway. What is our best bet in getting this money back?

    Sidenote: My husband is very tempted to also report the llama dealership since they have recently gotten an award for customer satisfaction, but a lot of those customer satisfaction surveys have been sent to wrong e-mail addresses on purpose so that those who would give a negative report wouldn’t receive those surveys.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The lawyer said that the charges would be the same amount as the 7k that you’re trying to recover?!

      Then don’t bother with a lawyer unless you just want to annoy the dealership…since that’s not going to get you any money, which is kind of the point :(

      Was he “told” that he was going to be paid this bonus in writing? This is the thing with bonuses, without a structure written and in place, they are usually viewed as discretionary . I really don’t think that you’re ever going to see this money. So I would just go after the reputation and report them with the falsified surveys.

      1. Llama Groomer's Wife*

        Yeah, that’s the part that bums him out. There was nothing in writing. Thank you for your insight.

    2. Reba*

      Lawyer =/= lawsuit, necessarily. One very handy thing a lawyer could do would be to send a letter, laying out what is owed and the relevant legal requirements for paying employees their money. The point of the letter would be to avoid filing a suit! It does not cost 7 grand to get an attorney to write a letter. If the attorney you spoke with said a lawsuit is the only way forward, I’d try a different one.

      1. Llama Groomer's Wife*

        Yeah, they sounded annoyed at our questions. I understand that they might have been busy.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ef that lawyer dude, if anyone ever sounds annoyed with you for asking for council, scratch them off your list and go to the next one. Lawyers are usually a dime a dozen unless you’re in a totally small one stop light town, they have to have some people skills.

    3. Joielle*

      Can you do small claims court? It differs by state (and maybe by county, actually), but where I am, I think you can go for claims under $10,000. It’s designed so that you can do it without a lawyer.

      1. Llama Groomer's Wife*

        We were thinking about that, but didn’t know how to give proof of the owed money.

        1. WellRed*

          Bonuses can be rescinded. They are also a way to retain employees and have no motivation to pay it out now. Add to that he doesn’t have it in writing and he technically quit, you might need to let this go.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Agreed. Unfortunately, your husband agreeing to say he quit and failing to get the bonus info written down in contract form will most likely preclude him from any recovery.

  181. ArtK*

    At my last job, I would have used my personal device to send/receive e-mails because I hate traveling with a laptop. What stopped me? The fact that when I tried to set up the Outlook account, the system informed me that they could wipe my device remotely. I understand why they might feel the need to do it, but I’ve run into too many idiots and don’t want to lose my data because somebody picked the wrong name in a drop-down list.

    I could get a phone at my current company, but haven’t yet. There’s one 2FA system (we have 3 or more) that calls my cell. That can be a pain because I don’t always keep it with me.

  182. TechyGal*

    Hey ya’ll! I have an issue going on at work that I need advice about.
    I started a job at a computer repair shop in April. I am sort of a jack of all trades at the shop. It is a small business-there are 4 other employees at my location, one of which is the owner/manager. My job is to be the customer service person-sell computers, take in broken ones, follow up on customers, etc. But I also do inventory, help the technician on repairs, clean the shop, ship things out, basically anything that doesn’t fall under the technicians roles. Since then I’ve gotten good feedback at our one on one, and I get feedback that I am appreciated for my work and doing a good job, etc. So I don’t think there are any major issues going on.

    The problem is that I am seemingly always getting feedback or small notes on things I’ve done wrong. Some of them are things that I knew and was trained on. Some of it falls into sort of a grey zone (i.e. “You quoted a customer XX amount, when really I would have charged them YY amount because I think it will require a little more labour”). And some of it is stuff that there was no previous documentation, or I never received training on. The perils of this small business is pretty much *nothing* is written down, and the owner splits his time between this location and the other. So I’ve been here since April and things are still popping up that I had no idea on. For example, we usually charge a 20% upcharge on most parts that we sell to the customer, but cables are a 50% upcharge. Or I learned recently that if we have to update software/drivers for a client, we have to charge extra for that – which was odd to me, because the most senior technician at the locations, that I work with daily and trained me on some of the pricing, had never taught me.

    I’m getting kind of frustrated because I feel like a terrible employee-pretty much every day I am getting a text on something I did wrong that I never knew was wrong. And the stuff that I did do wrong that I know to do different, it’s still frustrating to receive a bunch of these tiny texts. Don’t get me wrong, I take full responsibility for them and am glad to be called out. But seeing as I essentially run this entire location myself (for a dollar above minimum wage!) it’s still disheartening to get this trickle of texts every day.

    Is there any way I can phrase this to the owner that doesn’t sound like I don’t want to not get feedback/criticism, but that can gently say “could you wait until I get in, and only send me texts on important inquiries or major screw ups”?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is pretty typical for a job like you’re describing. Honestly, it’s only been six months! All of these little things seem to be one-offs that happen, when they happen. So it’s hard to train someone fully in price quoting when it’s rare that you’ll get that software update finally and find out that there’s an upcharge for it.

      I would just speak with your boss and tell him that you’re noticing you’re still making these small errors and how he’s viewing them. Explain that you feel that you’re doing poorly when you’re trying your hardest to make sure you do things right the first time, make sure you’re on the same page with him there. Ask him if he can leave you notes on things instead of sending you texts, so you’re not learning about this in your off-time. He should just send over an email with a “hey I saw you didn’t include this in a quote, fyi that’s a thing we do.”

      When you’re doing all the little things that the techs don’t do, that’s a lot of little details to pick up and it takes you more than six months to “see” every crazy thing that may pop up! So really, be kinder to yourself and try to work on the kneejerk reaction that corrections/feedback isn’t saying “You should have known better, what’s wrong with you?” view it as “Hey you haven’t done this one yet before so here’s how that is done next time it pops up.”

      Also as a small shop with what sounds basically like an office manager position, you should talk to the boss about writing all these things down!!!!! It’ll be a savior for you and whomever comes after you. And a huge thing for your boss moving forward. Then he can look over it if possible and see if anything pops out that’s missing or wrong. To try to hammer out those details. He may seem too busy to do that but if you approach it as “I want to make sure that I succeed and also have your best interest at heart, so let’s make a procedure manual together…” should go over pretty well. He seems like he’s probably at that stage where he’s growing a bit too big to do it all himself and therefore there are cracks opening up and you’re finding them given your role. Try to use this as a time to say “to better myself…and therefore do the best for you…let’s try to fix this?”

      Most small business owners will appreciate that and understand where you’re coming from.

      However. He’s drastically underpaying you and this sets my teeth on edge.

  183. Greenspan12*

    Where I work there are a lot of 20something moms, each of whom has young children. As an employer we’re as family friendly as we can be but have recently rejected requests from two of them for part-time working because the nature of our work and the roles can’t be efficiently done across a job sharing arrangement. Now we have two very disgruntled employees finding solace in each other about how awful it is. Can most employers facilitate part-time working and how do you handle this kind of pushback when you can’t!

    1. Mediamaven*

      I don’t think there is harm in their asking but I find it very frustrated that they are now disgruntled. If you had originally wanted part time employees you would have hired them. I would just say we aren’t able to accomodate that.

    2. WellRed*

      I think being able to accommodate several part time workers for two full time jobs would be the exception rather than the rule. As long as someone explained the decision to these two and provided reasons, they should be told to knock it off.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Unless you have a history of working with others in their situation, they are being ridiculous.

      Asking is never an issue in my mind, it’s always worth a shot. But being told “I’m sorry that’s not possible.” is a reasonable response to a request. Boohoo they got told no, let’s go stew about it. Yikes. They need to go find actual part-time jobs if that’s what they really desire, nobody is making them stay there!

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      A lot of employers can handle part time work. Some can’t.

      What exactly are they doing to push back, other than commisserating with each other over the difficulties of being a full time working mom of young kids?

      You absolutely should not try to stop them commisserating with each other. You can’t police peoples lunchtime conversations!

  184. SchrodingersCat*

    I just had a very strange interaction with a coworker, and I’m hoping to get some advice on how to follow up with this.
    We just had a small group meeting where we typically go around the table to discuss data from the previous week. I informally discussed some results and compared them to other results seen in the group; all very typical and benign stuff, or so I thought. Someone I trained and work very closely with (I’ll call her Karen), pulled me aside right after meeting and chewed me out. She said if I want to throw her under the bus she doesn’t know what to say, she’s tried so hard to be a good coworker and if I want I can just write her a note and she’ll quit. I tried asking her how I threw her under the bus, she mentioned the reference I made at meeting but I really still don’t understand how that would have elicited such a response from her. She walked away before I could say any more.
    The thing is, she is a good coworker! I thought I was too. I even thought we were work buddies, we’ve hung out outside of work and we do move in the same work social circles. I’m horrified to think that I make her so upset and uncomfortable that she would threaten to quit because of me, and I’m really at a loss as to how I’ve done that! I want to apologize and I want to ask her to explain to me what it is I’m doing wrong by her, because judging by that outburst there’s more going on than just this incident that I’m completely unaware of.
    For now I’m leaving her alone, she is obviously upset (I am too!) and I don’t want to inadvertantly screw up again. But I have to do something, we’re two of a three person team so we can’t just avoid each other indefinitely.
    So what is the right way to deal with a coworker who feels slighted by you, when you are completely oblivious as to what you’ve done wrong? Approach her directly with a concilliatory but confused tone? Approach our direct manager looking for mediation? I’m feeling totally blindsided and shocked by this right now.

    1. sacados*

      Direct, conciliatory/confused is definitely the first step. If nothing else, your manager is certainly going to ask if you have tried speaking with her yet.
      Explain you think she’s great, you definitely were not singling her out or implying that her work was bad and you hope that if you’ve done something wrong she’ll clear the air directly.
      Either she’s got something else going on in her life (in which case she’ll probably acknowledge this once she’s calmed down and you can smooth over the relationship) or she’s secretly super unreasonable and prone to overreaction and you had no idea until this point — in which case you may eventually need to bring this to your boss, if incidents continue or she acts in such a way to be hostile or hinder your work.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      I would ask your supervisor for advice about how to move forward. Let your supervisor know you already tried to ask Karen but could not get an answer.

      Does Karen interact this way with others? Do you notice other staff interpreting they way you mention things in a way you did not intend?

    3. Joielle*

      I’d ask someone else who was at the meeting whether they thought you had been harsh on Karen. The only explanation I can think of is that maybe your tone came across differently than you intended.

      Either way, you should apologize to her directly, but you don’t want to come across as confused if, from an outside perspective, you actually did come across as a bit too harsh.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I don’t think Karen deserves an apology, *unless* a third-party verifies that what SchrodingersCat said came across as harsh. I think that sacados’ idea that there is probably something else going on in her life makes the most sense.

  185. Cranky Neighbot*

    Tips or links on managing ADHD at work? I’m fine when I’m set up for the day by a decent night’s sleep, but unfortunately, when insomnia flares up, it is exponentially harder to deal.

    I am already on medication, treatment, etcetera. I’m looking more for pragmatic day-to-day stuff.

    1. Alpaca Bag*

      I keep a list of small, useful tasks I can do on days when I’m not on top of my game. I can look in the teapot system error logs and see if there is anything there I can fix, or I can update my teapot development documentation, or check in with teapot users to see if everything is going okay, or test new teapot designs and document my findings. The key is to make a list of these activities when you’re having a good day and put it where it’s easy to find.

      If I find myself just staring blankly at a task, I can list tiny steps that I can take to get closer to completion, and then do some of them because tiny steps aren’t so intimidating. (Or I read AAM hoping for my fog to clear!)

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      I believe bullet Journaling was invented by someone with adhd to help him stay focused. Check out bullet journal dot com.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      There was an AAM ‘Ask the readers’ column in March that contains tons of advice- the title is “How to succeed at work when you’re not neurotypical”. Good luck!

  187. Entry-Level Marcus*

    It really stings to be rejected for a job by a former employer who had nothing but positive things to say about your work. I know I shouldn’t take it personally, but it’s kind hard not to.

    I recently finished a temporary teapot analyst job that I absolutely loved. During my exit interview, my manager had nothing but praise for my work and told me that they would have held me on permanently as a teapot analyst if they had had the budget for it (I think she was telling the truth, too, this is a large organization, so budgetary decisions are made much further up in the hierarchy). A permanent teapot analyst position is basically my ideal job, at least at this point in my career, and I loved the culture of my former employer to boot.

    Just a few weeks ago, they posted a job ad for a permanent teapot analyst position because someone unexpectedly left the organization. So I immediately applied and thought that I would at least be a shoe-in for an interview. I knew that I wouldn’t necessarily get the job, but I did think it was reasonable to assume I’d be seriously considered because they told me they would have held me on/promoted me into that position a few months ago if they had had the budget.

    Welp, it turns out that was hopelessly naive. The company started contacting people for initial screenings days ago, and I have heard nothing (despite applying the day the ad went up). It makes me wonder if their praise was fully genuine, or if they were just trying to soften the blow of me not getting a permanent position. Why wouldn’t I at least get an interview? It’s very disheartening.

    1. Alianora*

      The people you worked with might not be the people screening applications. Why not reach out to them and let them know you applied?

    2. sacados*

      Seconded to Alianora, definitely reach out to your former manager and tell them you applied! Especially at a big organization, it’s possible the initial resume screening is searching for some particular qualification or experience that you don’t have but your former manager may still prefer someone she knows can do the work.

      1. Entry-Level Marcus*

        Thanks for the advice, both of you! I sent my former manager an email, so we’ll see what happens.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yay, I’m glad to see this.

          I bet that they’re not the ones doing the screenings, it’s probably up in HR somewhere and they’re using stupid keywords and nonsense. I wouldn’t assume it’s false feedback and praise, that’s pretty much nonsensical to do when dealing with people. It’s easy enough during an exit interview to be all “Thanks for your work, we appreciate it. Best of luck!” instead of you know, lying!

  188. coloring outside the lines*

    For the love of Pete, why do some universities make it so hard to get official transcripts? I had to get two:

    Experience 1: The college uses a national clearinghouse. It was super easy to go in, select where the transcript should be sent, grand total: $8.

    Experience 2: It’s a University of Texas school. The UTs have their own, incredibly clunky system. I had to use my UT ID login. But since I graduated 25 years ago, I don’t remember it. Was able to use the system to get my login, but the password could be anything. When I tried to reset the password, it told me my account was too old so I had to call the help line. After being on hold, I got a very nice student worker who then gave me a pop quiz on my transcript to confirm I was who I said I was. After that nail biter, I had to set up a minimum 12 character password- oh, and I’m not allowed to get a transcript unless I hand over my email address, and set up “Secret Questions”- for a student ID I haven’t used in 25 years and god help me I hope it’s another 25 years before I need to do so again. Cost: $20.

    And that’s Reason 287 why UT will never get a dime from me.

  189. Raj*

    Any suggestions for a small gift appropriate for me to give a direct report who just got married?
    I want to give a token gift to someone I manage who recently got married and is returning from her honeymoon on Monday. I don’t want it to be anything too big, as I think that would make her uncomfortable. I haven’t been able to find a registry online. I’d like to stay away from gift certificates as I prefer not to be obvious about how much I spent. I’m think something in the $25-50 range.
    Any suggestions? A plant? Wine? Some household item from an easily returnable place?

    1. Alpaca Bag*

      I received a set of hand towels with my new last initial embroidered on them, and still appreciate that sign of support for the new phase in my life.

      1. Mediamaven*

        That only works if you know she’s changing her name as nice as it is. I use my maiden name and would be annoyed if I got that.

      1. Joielle*

        Yeah, I’d say wine or champagne IF you’re pretty sure she drinks. If not, or you’re not sure, maybe a nice box of chocolate or something else edible.

    3. CAA*

      A gift basket is nice for this kind of situation because they come in a wide range of prices. Maybe a breakfast basket with mugs, coffee, pancake mix and syrup; or a picnic basket with wine and picnicky foods.

    4. Neosmom*

      When I got married only one month after starting a new job, my boss got me a couple of desktop photo frames. That was in 2000 and we are still displaying photos in them.

  190. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Angry Birds being played loudly in the not-yet-cubicled open area next to my office.
    I asked him to turn it down and he did but… REALLY people? During work hours next to an open range of cubicles?

    1. CAA*

      I think I’d have started with “hey, can you please use headphones whenever your device is making noise?”

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I should engrave that on m y brain so I can use the same phrase for the people who sit there and have loud personal conversations. (I really don’t need to know as many details of that one guy’s home life as I’ve been hearing…)

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        HA! (I actually am here very much past my usual stop time because someone wanted to meet with me…and he didn’t show. So I don’t feel guilty one bit for my AAM time today.)

        1. Buttons*

          LOL! I am just teasing you. I have posted 28 times because I am actively avoiding something I don’t want to work on.

  191. Judddddy*

    I’m looking for a job after my day job, something like 6pm-10pm. Anyone have any ideas of jobs that might allow those sort of hours? (I don’t have a car btw.)

    1. CAA*

      Waiting tables during the dinner rush.
      Retail, mostly stocking and closing.
      Remote work for a call center.

    4. raincoatpocket*

      I just quit my 6-10pm second job – it was stock replenishment at a retailer. The shop closed at 6pm, and replen staff worked after to put out stock and make the store look good again. Not a bad job, especially if you don’t want to interact with coworkers for even longer in the day.

  192. TootsNYC*

    Can I claim dibs on prime vacation days, thereby shutting my direct report out of them?

    Here’s the story:
    I’m taking vacation the week before Thanksgiving to go pursue a medical issue at a clinic. They think I’ll need a week, but some people need 7 days. At first, I only asked for that week off. But as I was getting ready to buy my tickets, I thought maybe I should bleed over into the week OF Thanksgiving.

    The next day, the guy who reports to me was planning to use up the rest of his days and asked for my days off. Then said he thought of taking the next week. I said I’d just then been thinking of taking them in order to safely extend my medical visit.

    That’s where we left it.

    I feel bad claiming those days. For him, that week means he can tack on the weekend before, and get more time off for fewer vacation days.

    But it could also save me a chunk of money for a return visit.

    I don’t like advantaging myself over the folks who report to me. If I’d remembered to submit the request (or realized I had as many vacay days as I do), it would have been a moot point. But the first of us to verbally express a desire for those days was him.

    I’m asking my boss if we could both be out–I could work remote. I might even be able to get something set up where I work remote for one day, and he works remote for the second, so he can travel but the department is still covered.

    But I’m curious what people think about the issue in general.

    1. Reba*

      I think because this is a medical thing, for you, it’s a different circumstance and you should have some more leeway. Please don’t feel bad about trying to get your needs met! I hope it works out so that you can both have the days off.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I don’t think I can do that–I’m traveling halfway across the country, and I need to buy the plane tickets.

    2. Buttons*

      Normally I would take one for my team, and I would work when they wanted off. But you are seeking medical treatment, and what happens if they need you to stay longer.? You would have to call in any way. Hopefully, they will let you work remotely so you both can have the days off.
      Good luck!

      1. TootsNYC*

        I normally give way on vacation too; if it were just the opportunity to extend a family trip or the Bahamas for a few days, this wouldn’t even cross my mind.

    3. Peaches*

      I think your solution of you working remote (and possibly him, only if need be) would be best case scenario. Obviously I don’t know what your medical issue is, but it sounds like (and I’m sorry for making assumptions!) that you’d at least be on the tail end of recovery and able to work remotely the week of Thanksgiving.

      It’s good that you recognize that he asked for the days off first, and that you’re trying to find a solution that will work for everyone.

      1. TootsNYC*

        there isn’t any recovery; it’s all going to be tests and diagnosis. So that’s not really a problem.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I think some of us took you literally when you said you might “bleed over” into Thanksgiving.

      1. Alianora*

        Work week = 5 days, real week = 7 days, maybe? If the clinic isn’t open on weekends I think that works out.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m on the side of medical issues come first. If you don’t mind working remotely, then that’s extra kind of you but really, health issues come first for anyone over here. And management is always willing to bend their vacation plans for a report as you say you do usually but if it’s medical, it’s priority.

  193. TK*

    Hi guys – I’m interested in your perspective on employees getting “voluntold” to manage internal events to create a good culture.

    I work at a company with an amazingly good culture (award-winning) and great executives. We have an internal volunteer program to organize fun events & surprises for employees, like happy hours, Bring Your Kids To Work Day, and holiday treats like cupcakes. Typically we have 1 big event per month, and 2-3 small activities.

    The executives will NOT hire someone to actually lead and coordinate this program, it is mandated to be staffed by employees who also have a full time “day job” at the company.

    In theory this is great, it means we all have a hand in organizing our events & maintaining fun culture. But we all have a day job, and sometimes this program requires several hours of work per week to make a big event come to fruition. So sometimes I have to spend 30% of my hours for a week on the program instead of the job I was hired to do. My manager is completely cool with this, but external deadlines still exist, so it gets stressful. And I know I could be doing an exceptional job at my “real” job if this program was not my responsibility.

    Thoughts/advice? Anyone else have a similar situation?

    1. awesome*

      They forget that volun-telling doesn’t create good culture!

      -Is everyone equally getting tagged for this, across ages, genders, and races? If not, that’s a problem.
      -Is this more closely related to your job than it is to other’s? Is yours a position that could reasonably see tasks of this nature on your job description?

      2. TK*

        Incredibly it is equally distributed by gender and race! We’re pretty diverse overall, but the typical volunteer group is about split even make female, and a mix of at least 6 ethnicities.

        And yes, I’m in marketing and my team makes up about half of all the volunteers. Marketing is maybe considered “fluffy” enough to spend time on not doing our real jobs, or something? Versus engineering or sales. But it is NOT part of my job description or related to my specific role.

    2. Buttons*

      My first thought is — are all people organizing these things as often as you are? If not, then someone needs to speak up. Is it equally distributed between genders? If not, then I would point this out.
      Does your work allow for yearly planning and do you ever have a slower time? I know that my slow time is June-July, so that is usually when I volunteer to help with some event at my company. Is that possible for you?

      1. Buttons*

        One more– are all levels organizing these things or are the leaders passing it down to non-people leaders?

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I want to work for the leaders who are non-people.
          (Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’m here late, I got blown off for a meeting I stayed late for, and I’m punchy with caffeine. And I logged out just to look at the traffic report and….yeah, I’m not getting in that car right away.)

          1. Buttons*

            HA! I am actively not working and have actively not been working for most of the day. I do NOT want to work on this thing I need to work on, mostly because I know I am going to have to work on it all weekend, even if I started it today.

    3. Qwerty*

      What about cutting back on the number of activities? If you only do 1-2 events per month instead of 3-4, then you can have twice as many people contributing to each event, which cuts the time in half that you spend planning the event. Or considering making the activities less elaborate so they take less time to plan – I’ve been part of the “fun committee” (5-8 people) at work that planned almost all of our internal events the commitment was far less than 30% of my work time. More like a couple hours per month.

      Places with fun cultures are a team effort. Part of the reason they want employees involved in the planning and executing of events is to have everyone contributing to the fun culture, instead of just having it delivered to them. If you don’t want to help plan events than you need to be ok with not having events. It sounds like your company has made contributing to company events part of the job description therefore it is also part of your “real” job.

    4. CatCat*

      I hate being voluntold for stuff like this because I hate doing stuff like this. That wouldn’t “create a good culture” for me, personally.

  194. An0nogal*

    Hi all. Today I sent a doctor’s note for a week off of work as I got biopsy results that show I have breast cancer.
    I sent a note to my team, boss, HR, and the admin. I have no idea what will happen but next week I have an oncology appt and other tests.
    Anyone else dealt with this and any advice when asked about it in terms of stuff not to say and also stuff to say? Legally I am covered in terms of work, but I want to be sure that I can counter any gossip started by my boss as she tends to do that and in the past year had at least one employee go on burnout leave because of her bad management style of being too pushy and gossipy.

    1. TootsNYC*

      I think first you should decide what you think about how far the news should spread.

      Personally, I wouldn’t care if the whole office knew, but I think I am a minority. And maybe my office just has better manners that other people’s.

      So if I didn’t want my boss gunking things up, I’d make sure to tell several people closer to me and ask them to spread the news. Or I’d just send an OOO email that said the business stuff first, and at the bottom a parenthetical that said “(In case you’re wondering, we’re chasing breast cancer. But please don’t worry about me, the outlook is good. Sylvia will have updates if there are any. And…get a mammogram, ladies! Guys too, since it can hit men as well.)”

      But if you want more privacy than that, you might still recruit a few people close to you to kind of “police” the gossip out on the floor. Be the ones who say, “well, boss doesn’t have it right, but Anonogal would probably prefer we not chatter about it.”

      1. valentine*

        Double down?
        Them: We heard xyz.
        You: Actually, I’m a spy for London Yard.

        Slight shame?
        You: I hope we can rely on each other’s discretion.

    2. Asenath*

      Been there, done that . I initially talked to only my closest relatives and personal friends. I rapidly realized that I was going to be in and out of work a lot in the immediate future (although of course how much depended on the results of further tests), so co-workers were going to notice. And I wanted the stability of going to work as much as I could so I wouldn’t be sitting at home imagining the worst. The fact that I work very close to the facility where I’d be treated helped with the work flexibility. And then I thought, dammit, there’s nothing shameful about having cancer; I’d say if I was having the flu or something. So I told the small group I work with directly about my diagnosis. Fortunately, they were supportive, and if they gossiped outside our small group (which I was prepared for), it never got back to me or caused me any stress. It’s in, well, a medically-related area (trying to be anonymous here), so maybe people are used to respecting privacy – or maybe they’re just a good bunch. If I had a boss I thought might gossip and cause me stress, I might have made a different decision.

      And good luck with your test results; may they be as good as mine! My cancer had only spread a little (not to the lymph nodes), and following treatment, I have a very good prognosis. I still get regular checkups as part of the protocol for someone who’s been treated for breast cancer, and am taking an estrogen-reducing drug, but am basically back to normal.

    3. Breast Solidarity*

      Going through this now.

      Boss is NOT entitled to share any medical information!

      I have kept my diagnosis on very much a need-to-know basis. I do not need 100 people a day asking me how I am or telling me to cure it with baking soda or alkali water of apple cider vinegar, thank you very much! Also it was such a whirlwind and has taken me a long time to wrap my head around the diagnosis (also because the most immediately treatment-determining tumor marker came back really late — the week I was scheduled for surgery and all of a sudden the plan changed to chemo first!) and I don’t want to talk about it at work.

      I am lucky, my boss has been wonderful and supportive and my immediate team has been great. HR has been not so helpful with the FMLA paperwork, but working through that has been manageable. I hope it turns out your boss rallies and is better than you expect, but I would recommend very directly telling him/her that you expect your medical information to not be shared. And for FMLA the specific medical info should go to HR and your boss does not need to know any details! (This is assuming you are in the US and FMLA applies)

      Best of luck

      1. Breast Solidarity*

        I was typing as Asenath was posting. In my case, work is my escape from Cancer-Land, that is a big part of why I want to keep it quiet outside my department. Also, former department is Drama Central as are several other departments I interact with.

        YMMV!

  195. Ms. Ismelda Lottastuf*

    My 1 officemate in our shared small office (within larger hallway) is super nice but her lunches smell nauseating—overcooked greens that smell like a broccoli forest farted. It got so bad I had to chew gum, eat 2 mints, chew 3 candies ginger pieces to ward off the smell and nausea triggered by said smell and the smell was sickening.

    Today, she brought the same smelling lunch so I left the building to run an errand for 20 min while she ate so by the time I returned the smell dissipated. Officemate’s vegan (I don’t want to ask her to stop eating that or policing what she can eat at her desk). We don’t have any air vents and it’s windowless. How do I cope with the stench? I’m especially worried since while I’m not pregnant now, I might be in the coming years and I don’t want to smell that everyday+morning sickness. What would you do?

    1. Buttons*

      I feel your pain. I am taking a medication that makes me severely nauseous every morning. This morning I couldn’t even scoop dry dog food (which barely smells) without dry heaving so hard I saw spots!
      The only thing I can think of is a small desk fan that might blow the air back in her direction. I don’t think air purifiers help with smells like that. You may just have to leave when she eats stinky stuff you don’t want to ask her to eat in the other room.
      I am so thankful I work from home, no one wants to see/hear me dry heave for 2 hours every morning. Good luck! I hope someone else chimes in with better ideas than I have.

    2. Close Bracket*

      “Officemate, this is so awkward and I’m mortified to even bring it up, but sometimes your lunches smell really strong to me. I’m so sorry to ask, but is it possible for you to eat in the break room? I know it’s an imposition, but the scent makes me a little nauseous.”

    3. BadWolf*

      Do you each lunch in your office? Or snack? Maybe you could something around, “Hey officemate, this is awkward, but since this office isn’t’ well ventilated, the lingering lunch/food smells are starting to get to me. Could we eat lunch not at our desks?”

    4. Ms. Ismelda Lottastuf*

      Thanks…unfortunately there is no break room, just a tiny kitchen with a tiny table with one chair (for an office of 50 people). Most eat at their desks or walk outside and eat on a church’s steps (there’s no outdoor seating except for smoking folks and it reeks there and has mosquitoes). There’s no office cafeteria, just a canteen with no chairs that requires exiting the office…

      Coworker already has a mini desk fan. Maybe I should buy one too? But it doesn’t seem to work :/

      1. valentine*

        Work trumps her food choice. She can literally take it outside while it’s not reasonable for you to have to vacate the assaulted area. (Is there a graveyard? I like how someone said they used to eat lunch in one. Sounds so peaceful. (And creepy. But mostly peaceful.) )

        smell like a broccoli forest farted
        On the plus side, you have a way with words. This reminds me of microwaved spinach I rued.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve got to hope you’re not eating anything in there either. Because if you’re bringing bacon&egg or cheeseburgers back to your desk, you can’t really say what I’m going to suggest:
      “This is awkward, but I have to ask. Since we have a very small office with no air vents, can you avoid eating in here? It’s why I don’t wear any fragrance even in hand lotion — with no air vents, any smells are just overpowering.”

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Annnnd I should have read everyone else’s comments. I got nothing after that. Except DANG your company needs to get a break room together, because no vent + no escape = I’d be job hunting.

  196. Itsaa me, Mario!*

    Do any of you ever have the temptation to tell off a former employer?

    Out of college, I worked for a terrible, downright toxic place. Without getting into too many details, I will just say I was completely unsupported, set up to fail, and thrown off the deep end with zero training. The turnover rate at the company was through the roof. I was there for ten months before finding another job (my current job) which I love. It’s been almost five years since that first job, but I still think about how I would love to reach out to my former manager via LinkedIn, email, or whatever, and just go off (to be clear, I never would!)

    I just wish there was a way to let her know her perception of me was way off. My current employer values me greatly, knows I have a great work ethic, and has given me several raises and a promotion over the years. My former employer did not see me this way at all.

    I know it’s been years and I need to move on…I just hate thinking that someone out there has such a poor opinion of me!

    Oh well. I’m thankful for the situation I’m in now.

    1. Mama Bear*

      No, only because there’s no cheese down that path. For example, had I laid into my old boss from several jobs ago, that might’ve gotten back to my current bosses. It’s a small world. I figure that there will always be people who don’t like me and vice versa, professionally and personally. Can’t always do much about it.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh gurl, we must be twins!

      Write it down and burn it.

      Not everyone is going to be your fan and that’s okay, powerful people have a few enemies out there. That’s how I had to talk myself off the ledge when I would have loved to unload all the baggage on my former boss.

      My partner still twitches a bit when that guy is brought up because we were both wronged so badly by him. What I tell him to keep him off that ledge as well is “That dbag is not worth it.”

      Who cares if some sub par, dimwitted person who managed you for a minute five years ago doesn’t think you’re fantastic. They’re in the dust, leave them there to get itchy.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I get my petty revenge by telling stories about “that damned startup company” instead of ever using their name.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Thankfully the company failed spectacularly and the owners had to go get new jobs, no more being their own boss. ahha hahahahahaha hahahaha sucks to suuuuuuuuuck.

      2. Kathenus*

        I read something last year (maybe on AAM?) where someone wrote down things they disliked about someone at work and put it in their shoe. It gave them satisfaction to be ‘stepping on’ the person all day. I thought it was a quite creative way to relieve stress.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          LOL, this sounds like something I would do as well.

          I won’t lie, there have been times where say I get a cruddy email and I need to print it out and read it to the team for “feedback” but it’s totally bs. So I’m like “I’m telling you this because of how over the top ridiculous it is.” and then I go “this is what I think of this email *rubs it on my butt* *crumples* *drops on table*

          Unshocking to most, I’m not always the most mature but I know my audiences ;)

      3. 653-CXK*

        The day after I got let go from ExJob, I wrote a pretty hefty barn-burner of a F-off letter (but I never sent it). It made me feel much better, and helped me put things into perspective.

        Karma is coming, however – ExCompany is merging with someone else. I would have willing to be a fly on the wall watching the panic and fear of my ex-coworkers as they announced the merger and field questions about layoffs.

    3. Asenath*

      No, I finally realized that I was a lot happier when I finally realized that I’d forgotten Bad Old Job entirely. Moving on to something I was better at helped.

      1. Norm*

        Leaving a Glassdoor review and venting on AAM are both good ways to get over this kind of blulhisit. If it’s been years since you left and it’s still eating you, maybe that’s not enough?

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I’m in a position where I could actually do this. The group I used to be a part of for 5 years decided they didn’t really need me (more specifically, my particular skills, which were not valued) anymore. Two and a half years later, they are finally, belatedly staffing up because they are short of people with my particular skills, something that finally became clear to bosses 3 levels up due to recent circumstances. I now work in a separate group at the same company, doing far more interesting things and they’ve still had to come back to me asking for my help because, shocker, my skill set is actually valuable.

      I’m taking the high road and being super pleasant in all my interactions with them, but man if it isn’t a schadenfreude bonanza these days.

    6. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      You can write a scathing Glassdoor review! I don’t recommend contacting her directly, though.

  197. Remember Neopets?*

    I’m hiring for an entry level position. On the one hand, the job can be learned and done well with no prior experience in the job or the field, but on the other hand, some prior experience is helpful.

    I’m getting a lot of applications for people who have a ton of experience and would do this job really well, but I think they’d be taking a pay cut (totally assuming based upon their minimum salary ask since my company doesn’t advertise the salary on our postings). Also, there isn’t really a ton of room for promotions, the organization is very flat (the position is open because the person left and went to a better paying company.)

    I’m currently wading through over a hundred applications and I don’t know if I should reach out to these people or just assume I know best and decline them. But it would also be a waste of my time to schedule phone interviews with over a dozen people to say “Based upon your resume, I think you’re overqualified for this position. Also, the pay is 10K less than what you indicated was your preferred salary. Do you still want to be considered for this job?”

    I think I’m just feeling guilty since I know what it’s like to be desperate for a job. I also know that people change careers or take less stressful, lower paying jobs for other reasons.

    Hiring also sucks.

    1. Buttons*

      I hate that too. I know people get laid off and will take anything and I know people sometimes want to take a step back to a lower position, but if so, they need to ask for the right salary. So I likely wouldn’t call anyone who has that big of a difference in expectations and reality. I would also take a look at your posting to make sure it accurately reflects that it is an entry-level position. I would even compare it to the next level or two up to make sure it isn’t listing qualifications and experience that is for a higher-level position.
      Good luck!

    2. Joielle*

      I think if the pay is $10K less than their preferred salary, it makes sense to pass on them. That’s a pretty big jump (since I assume you’re talking about a salary of, like, $40-60K, not $200K or something where $10K wouldn’t make THAT big of a difference).

      If it’s just a lot of prior experience but they’re ok with a lower salary, I don’t think it would be a waste of time to do a phone interview. Like you said, they might be purposely looking for an entry level position to get a foothold in a different industry, or a less stressful position, or whatever. On the other hand, you’d think if that was the case, their cover letter would at least mention it… are they just not addressing it in the cover letter? Or is there no cover letter?

      1. Remember Neopets?*

        A cover letter isn’t required so very few people provide one. And most people aren’t even adding an objective or explanation on their resume. Something like, “Overachiever in swimming hoping to get a foot hold in running.” would be super helpful.

        This is a salary where 10K would make a huge difference.

        1. Buttons*

          Objectives aren’t put on resumes anymore. :) Most people put an “executive summary” or some sort of summary now.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Do *all* of the applicants have minimum salary expectations that are higher than the maximum salary available for the role? Surely there are a few resumes who meet the requirements and also match the salary expectations.

      If there are really good applicants who are close percentage wise with their minimum requirements, you could call them. They might be asking more than they expect to get. I took someone’s advice to be aspirational in your salary requirements and put 10% more than my current salary as my expectation. When I later asked her about my application, she said she looked at it and said my salary expectation were more than the position paid (which was not published bc why would they?). I said, “Oh, I was taking your advice, I’m fine with staying at my current salary or could even take less if there were other forms of compensation like stock options.” So who knows.

    4. BlueWolf*

      Can you list the salary range in the posting? I wish more employers would do this. That way applicants can feel free to self-select out and it saves everyone time.

      1. Remember Neopets?*

        It’s company policy and not up to me. I’ve already brought it up to HR on previous postings because it’s such a problem.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      10k is a pretty big gap but at the same time, they’re posting their salary “desired” and a lot of times, they may actually be making closer to what you’re going to offer them than they’re actually making/could survive on. Lots of people are told to “shoot for the moon” so they’re asking for you know, that 10k bump they’d love but know realistically may not happen.

      If you’re truly interested in them, I don’t think it’s a waste to schedule a phone screen at least. It’s a few minutes of both of your time to get to the bottom of that issue. It’s going to help you rest easier to do some more legwork than just pass them by.

      You said over a hundred applications. Do you have only Great Over Qualified and Never Ever Touch It resumes? You don’t have any middle ground? I know it can really be “Too good to be true” and “Nope bye”, so that’s why I ask. But if there are middle-ground ones, I’d focus on those ones first. Then if they don’t shake out, start spending time on the more qualified ones.

      Keep in mind some people will take “breather” jobs, if they’re over qualified and just needing to scale back. Maybe they can take a paycut for the less stressful job. I just wouldn’t weed someone out directly if it’s possible since you’re going to do more harm to your hiring process trying to throw the dice and thinking too much about things being a time waste.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I see that you already know about the fact people step back sometimes, I apologize for being more of a skimmer reader than usual today. Frigging decongestant hell.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I think putting that message into an email would be a good compromise. Give them the data and let them decide if they want to self-select out.
      There was a time in my life that I looked seriously at applying to a job I could walk to, even though it was a pay cut.

    7. Elenna*

      Are you able to email them instead of calling? If possible, I imagine many applicants would appreciate an email saying “I think you’re overqualified and also the pay range is such-and-such” rather than being quietly declined. And it’s probably faster on your side to just send out a bunch of form emails and assume that if they don’t get back to you they’re not okay with it.

      Side question, is it normal to have your preferred salary on a resume?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Side question, is it normal to have your preferred salary on a resume?

        I’m guessing OP means that applicants fill out an online form which asks (hopefully doesn’t require) they include a preferred salary.

  198. Effective Immediately*

    I just got turned down for my dream job. I made it to the final round out of an enormous applicant pool, and while nice, it almost feels worse to have gotten that close and lost it. The money would have been truly life-changing–and an amount I’m unlikely to ever get in my area–and the work was something I’m good at and really believe in.

    I have never taken hiring decisions personally (I make enough of them myself to know it’s not like that! There can only be one.), but I’ve never been so bummed out about a lost opportunity in my life. There’s really nothing comparable I could apply for, and the roles are pretty niche and don’t open up very often.

    It feels like losing the chance of a lifetime. What do you do to make yourself feel better when that happens? I’m not a sentimental person in general–and made sure I was realistic and didn’t get my hopes up–and I still feel awful.
    Any coping advice welcome.

    1. House Tyrell*

      That happened to me a few months ago. I would have been perfect, I’d actually been in the fellowship that this position would have been a coordinator for, the money and move and opportunity would have been lifechanging. They had someone I was close to when I was student for the program call me to reject me and I straight up cried on the phone and was so embarrassed. He offered to help me find another job but forgot our second call and I was too embarrassed to ever reach out again since every person in that office knew me personally.
      To be honest, months later, I still feel terrible and my confidence is nonexistent and I coped by eating a lot of ice cream at the time. To this day I haven’t really applied anywhere else even though I hate my job now because I’m too depressed to feel rejected like that again. I do have one other application out there for a job at the university I graduated from and worked for as a student employee in the office of someone I admire and respect- he even emailed me directly with the application link- and I’ve been so stressed about it.

      1. irene adler*

        But seriously. I’m sorry you didn’t get the job you truly wanted. Been there, done that.

        For me, I have to believe there’s something else coming along that will be equally exciting OR you are dodging a bullet but just don’t know it. I don’t believe there’s only one “once in a lifetime” opportunities.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In reality, you don’t know if that organization is going to have another opening soon or not. So I wouldn’t look at it as “once in a lifetime” thing. People don’t stay at jobs forever, what if the person they hired decides to leave in a year or two? Then you could reapply and maybe that time you get it. Or they could call you later and say “Hey, remember us. What you doing? Wanna come work here?”

      I was passed up before and called back because first choices failed *shrug*

      I would keep that in mind. Of course don’t dwell on it and bank on it but don’t cross them off the list with a blackout marker and burn it in sacrifice, it’s not unrealistic that the company hires for a similar role in the future!

    4. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Commiseration here – same exact thing happened to me a couple months ago. Still sort of sore about it, but the initial pain has died down!

      You should allow yourself to be sad about it – just like any other sad moment in life, you will eventually move on.

  199. wanderingwatson*

    During giveaway brainstorming earlier this year, my manager discovered that one can order customized teddy bears. (Just a corporate slogan on the front). I know companies often give out freebies that aren’t useful, so I recommended nixing the teddy bear idea as a prize or handout for adults. If we really wanted to thank someone or award someone, I think we should be giving out things people might actually use for themselves or at their desk.

    He became fixated on the idea, so I found a middle ground project we could use them on and thought that was the end of it.

    Whelp. Nope. As of yesterday, my boss is dead set on buying our team of 24 people these teddy bears for Christmas. He thinks we’ll want to keep them on our desk and be thrilled about supporting the company slogan. We work in a corporate office and have no direct correspondence with customers, so it’s not like anyone outside is going to see them.

    I tried a counter suggestion of putting the new slogan on a blanket to give to everyone (our offices are freezing – something he even commented on earlier in the day, and a blanket as a gift would show he pays attention to the issue people are having), but that wasn’t good enough for him.

    Suggestions on how to direct his attention elsewhere? Better gift ideas a manager can give to a team? Or do I just have to let this one go and accept that I’ll be giving away a bear to Goodwill in January?

    1. Joielle*

      Ha! His enthusiasm about this is so odd that it’s a little charming (to me, who doesn’t have to deal with it directly). I think your idea for the blanket is perfect, honestly. Any chance you could do the blankets but fold them into a teddy bear before handing them out? Like so: https://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Teddy-Bear-Out-of-a-Towel

      I’m only, like… 60% kidding.

    2. Buttons*

      UGGG I am with you on this one. I hate stupid gifts that aren’t useful and I hate nicknacks and cutesy things on my desk. I don’t know how to redirect him if he didn’t take the blanket idea, which I think is a great idea! I usually give really nice pens, or notepads, laptop bags, lunch bags. One year we gave everyone 4 reusable shopping bags.
      Are the bears priced low enough you could do the bear and something useful? I have done plastic cups with lids and straws, which were really inexpensive and fit with our green theme of no disposable cups or utensils are used in our building.
      Good luck!
      PS I am now going to go source blankets.

    3. Mama Bear*

      I don’t know what the other project was but could he be encouraged to buy/donate bears to a charity? I like bears but I’d be unlikely to keep one on my desk. A better gift, IMO, would be time off, a reusable mug, a catered holiday lunch, a company shirt…

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My husband’s former employer did blankets in 1999 …AND I STILL HAVE IT.
      Suggest he put the slogan onto a teddybear tshirt — that way you could strip off the tshirt and give the stuffie to Toys for Tots or some other gifts-for-kids program.

    5. Construction Safety*

      We’ve given away Maglight flashlights without name/logo on them. They are very popular.

  200. The Bear*

    I’m applying for jobs, including one I really, really want. We don’t really answer the home phone any more (the only people who call are telemarketers) so my cell phone is my contact number. Problem: the cell service at my house went out yesterday, and I have no idea when it’ll be back. Should I tell the places I’ve applied to in case they call me and I don’t pick up, or would that be too pushy?

    1. Buttons*

      No, don’t do that. Even if you don’t have cell service your voicemail is still working, or it should be. You should also be able to forward your cell number to your home phone. If you go to your cell provider’s website, it should tell you have to access your voicemail and how to forward your cell number.
      If any of them were online applications you could log back into them and change the contact phone number on the form.

    2. Joielle*

      I would! I’d send an email if possible, ideally in a reply to the email you sent with your application materials. Just say that you had included your cell phone number on your application, but the service just went out and the provider isn’t sure when it will be repaired, so your home phone is a better contact number, and a brief apology for any inconvenience. This isn’t a big deal! It’s a relevant piece of information about your application.

      If you don’t have an email address, I’d call the main office number once and leave a message with whoever picks up, or on the voicemail.

  201. Number One Dime*

    I have an ethical question – I manage a small non-profit and we were reconciling our books for last month and discovered we had an unexplained extra $100 in the bank. I called and, from what they could figure out, at one deposit, after I drove away, the teller found an extra $100 in cash and deposited that to our account. The teller was “no longer with them” (read between the lines what you will) so that was as far as anyone there could trace it. The bank’s attitude is that they did their part and the case is closed. Meanwhile I’m 99% sure that money isn’t ours. I thought about it after the call and strongly suspect that we did a cash change that day, along with the deposits, and it’s usually right around $100 so I suspect that we both got change AND that same $100 deposited into our account.

    So, call up the bank and let them know my suspicion? Keep the money and be grateful?

    1. Mama Bear*

      I’d call them and let them know what you think and if they decline to correct it, then update your books accordingly.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Yeah, this.

        Reporting it and making sure the bank is aware is a good thing, but depending on their internal processes, debiting your account as a “miscellaneous” transaction can be an incredible hassle, and for an amount as small (on an operational level) as $100, they may not consider it worth the time to take it back out of your account.

    2. SarahKay*

      Since from what you say it’s likely to be the bank’s money then I’d let it go. I reckon there’s a reasonable probability that investigating and fixing the error will cost them more than losing the $100.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would try it one more time to let them know.

      However having had a similar thing happen years ago with a deposit that was too much, banks will close the case and shrug it off if they cannot trace it. So I would just confirm with them to say “So is this closed or will we be suddenly deducted $100 one day?”

      It drives me up the walls when this happens. I don’t like being shorted on deposits of course but I hate being over-credited as well. It feels gross and I’m still angry about the last time this happened because it makes me feel uncomfortable and my books sloppy.

    4. Number One Dime*

      UPDATE:
      I called and told them of my suspicions and the banker (or insert correct title here – she just gave her name) literally responded with, “so what do you want me to do about this?” Me, being the completely composed professional I am (cough), told her I felt guilty taking money that wasn’t rightfully ours and wanted to hand off the problem to someone else. I probably could have phrased that last part better. The result’s what I wanted, though – she said she’d look into it and get back to us. Selfishly I hope that the bank lets us keep that money but either way I feel good about the choice. Even if she did sound a bit annoyed at having that one dropped on her on a Friday afternoon.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Wait.

        What the hell. Did you call the branch this happened at or their 1-800 customer service number? If it’s the branch, tell them you want the branch manager to talk to you and confirm if it’s closed or not.

        I’m not here for salty tellers let alone ever saying “What do you want me to do about it.” That’s unacceptable to say to anyone who is calling.

        If it’s the same branch with the teller who screwed up, I bet there’s something wrong with the branch as a whole. Try calling their call center and lighting a fire on that side of things.

        Tell them that you want your ‘efing books to balance and their error is causing you accounting problems. Then drag them further and further. They know better than this.

      2. Number One Dime*

        UPDATE the second:
        Just got a call back and, as far as the bank is concerned, that money’s ours. I still think it wasn’t – we keep too good of records for an extra $100 in cash to be unaccounted for like that – but it is now. I asked if the case is closed and she confirmed it is (thank you The Man, Becky Lynch for that phrasing) so I’ll figure out how to record that in our system.

        Thanks all!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Might be a good idea to mentally adjust your desired minimum balance to not spend it in case the “teller who no longer works there” is soon followed by teller #2, “the one who got snotty”.

          1. valentine*

            I don’t fault the second teller because:
            The bank’s attitude is that they did their part and the case is closed.

            I get wanting to be honest, but I have had to learn not to bother reporting when a particular business doesn’t care or want to know they made a financial error in my favor because they consider it part of the cost of doing business. If you keep insisting, they’ll wonder what you’re really after.

        2. Natalie*

          It’s a real life bank error in your favor!

          If you have Netflix and can tolerate 90s laughtrack, there’s an episode of Frasier where the dad has an escalating series of errors like this. Roe to Perdition, one of the later seasons.

          1. Kiwiii*

            There’s a FRIENDS episode like this as well — it happens to Phoebe, but I don’t have guess about which season/episode. I think an earlier one.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The finicky angry perfectionist within me is still enraged! But I’m glad they finally gave you a solid answer.

          If you can document the crap out of that adjustment in your ledgers, I would. I think my old notes were along the lines of ‘The GD bank screwed up and swears this is our money even though it’s probably not” and lumped it in with misc income. Then flagged it everywhere possible so if they tried to adjust it later, I’d know what was going on [let’s be real, I’d know anyways because I’m still thinking about it like 8 years later, lol] Once it’s been done for a year or more, there’s no adjusting to be done, they’ve already closed out their ledgers as well. That’s why they refused to even investigate once because they had already closed out their books for that period that I was calling about. So yeah, it never came up again, except in my rage filled accounting dreams ;)

          You’re welcome :)

    5. LGC*

      It’s smallish change but I’d call the bank and offer to return it. Double check to see if you did a cash change that day and what it was for on your end.

      I don’t think it’d be the worst thing in the world to just keep it, but you’re already suspicious that there was small wrongdoing involved.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      As someone who used to work at a bank, at this point, there’s nothing else you can do. Don’t worry about it. The fact that everyone is so meh about it means they haven’t found any overages/shortages in any cash drawers. (Or they’re terrible???) But $100 offage in a cash drawer is a pretty big deal. Like, get written up or fired depending on the number of times you’ve had it happen to you. (or maybe this is why the person is gone now?) Regardless, it’s going to be written off on the bank’s side at this point.

  202. Bluebell*

    So I belong to a professional organization which has a mentoring program and have been assigned to my new mentee. We met at an initial meeting for the whole cohort, and I invited her to lunch for our first 1 on 1. She brought her 2 month old child, who slept most of the time, though fussed at the end, so she fed him. We will be meeting again next month, and I’m wondering if I should request that she attend without him. Part of me feels that these sessions should be as professional as possible, while I can also see the perspective that it’s kind to make things easier for her. Thoughts?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Given the child is so young, it’s possible that there’s no options for her. At that young of age, many mother’s don’t feel right leaving them anywhere for any amount of time. She fed him? Is she breast feeding? That would also mean that leaving the baby is even less doable.

      Since it’s a mentorship and a lunch, I really think you need to be more respectful of her choice to bring her baby along. It’s not the same professional standards and lacks empathy for a new mother who’s still working on her professional networking.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Some daycares won’t take babies younger than 12 weeks so she may not have many options. I was still on maternity leave at that point, and had to figure out +2 weeks of leave b/c our daycare slot wasn’t yet open.

        If it’s kind of informal (lunch), then I would overlook the baby unless it becomes distracting/she can’t focus on the discussion. If you will next be meeting in an office, you might want to mention that generally you don’t have babies in the office so she can make arrangements. But if it’s lunch, I’d give her some wiggle room at his age.

        1. Bluebell*

          Yes- she did breastfeed- apparently she had a bottle of milk but couldn’t find it. I’m fine with the baby coming, though this mentorship is supposed to last two years and at some point he will be much more mobile!

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            When he’s older, you can always revisit it if he starts getting really distracting.

            But she will also probably have more options as well, after he starts being mobile and requiring more stimulation, she’ll probably cherish a moment for “adult time” and to possibly leave him at home with her partner if she has one or family/friend or daycare, etc.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          The non-industrial daycare near me didn’t take babies younger than six MONTHS. I don’t know what I would have done if someone hadn’t referred me to a SAHM who did one-at-a-time babysitting!

    2. Tib*

      If her baby is super young and wasn’t a problem, I don’t actually think you should ask her not to bring him. It might be worthwhile to make sure she knows that he shouldn’t come absolutely everywhere with her, but for me it’s about ethics more than kindness. This is an opportunity, outside of work hours, that she might not be able to take advantage of without bringing her child with her, and I don’t think she should be penalized for that.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Just agreeing with the above comments. In addition, at 2 months, if she’s nursing, the nursing relationship is just getting established, and it would be a real benefit to her to be able to maintain a nursing schedule — depending on the length of the meeting, it would have been difficult to impossible for me to be away from my son when he was that age (both practically, since I was nursing, and emotionally). It’s a lunch meeting with a mentee, not a corporate board meeting, and I’d really encourage you to think of this as a way to help a working mom make her way in a culture that’s often pretty inflexible with working moms.

      1. Bluebell*

        Yes- this was definitely a thought I had, even though the program isn’t focused on new moms. Two years ago they were very insistent that the program be as professional as possible, and mentees had to reach out to mentors. This cycle the mentors were asked to schedule the first meeting.

  203. LoneWanderer*

    Hello everyone – I recently found out that I am making 10-14k less than other people who were hired at the same level with similar or less experience than me. I’ve been in my current position for 3/4 of a year (so new) but I’m operating a very high level and I have a number of things that can point to me needing different compensation.
    How can I approach this? Can I bring up what I found out? Should I just talk about how I am contributing at a much higher level and my compensation is not commensurate with it? Do I just wait until March and hope they bump me up?

    1. Mama Bear*

      How did you find out? At the very least I’d mention it at review time (is that March?) and detail the extra things you are doing that qualify you for a raise. I would not leave it unaddressed/rely on hope.

      1. SarahKay*

        Depending on when any raise comes into effect, I’d discuss it before March.
        I know that for us our annual reviews are held in March, with relevant raises happening for the April pay but the pay rises are all locked down much earlier in the year. Basically any given site gets a set budget, based on a percentage of their current payroll, and the managers allocate that out, then deliver the news of any pay rise at the same time as the review.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yes, the budget is probably not locked in yet since it’s not review time, so this gives them time to find the money somewhere. They probably think they’re doing great coming in below budget in wages…because they’re shorting LoneWanderer so frigging much. Ick.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Holy shi…that’s a huge difference. I have to wonder how that happened, that’s a gross oversight on someone’s part somewhere if we want to give the benefit of the doubt out.

      I would bring it up as soon as possible honestly, give them time to figure it out.

  204. Brazilian Hobbit*

    I think I’m just needing to vent about the mess my work place has become.

    Other than huffy coworker going back to normal-ish (he’s only talking to me about professional stuff, and that’s a big relief), nothing has improved.

    My department used to have four people. Two have left for other jobs (and I’m very happy for them, sincerely – they were both good workers and deserve to work with what they actually wanted to do) and the other one is constantly being called to do other jobs within the office. That would be fine, except for the fact that he’ll just disappear and nobody in our remote team (a lot of people, actually) can get in touch with him. He’s supposed to cover my lunch break and help me when we’re really busy, but he’ll just go out for lunch and go into radio silence for several hours.

    Things are going undone for days because nobody knows who’s supposed to do them and all I hear is “I thought Gandalf would do it”, then go to Gandalf and hear “No, Frodo is the one who does it” and it doesn’t get done. (And I have to hear all the complaints about it not being done)

    I can’t find a new job soon enough, but with the economy just picking back up, it’s really hard to find anything. – sigh – I used to love my job, and I really wish I could love it again, but I don’t see it happening without some really big changes.

      1. Brazilian Hobbit*

        Not really. There is someone who officially has this position, but they’re basically impossible to reach.

        1. WellRed*

          Focus on the future shiny new job, while getting through this one. Just do what you can, don’t count on your coworker and certainly don’t kill yourself to get things done. Take your breaks, take vacation and sick time and leave on time.

          1. Brazilian Hobbit*

            That’s pretty much what I have been trying to do. I feel like a slacker, but I know it’s just a feeling and I need to take care of myself. I wish I could sit my boss (the owner) down and list all of the issues and have him address them. The problem is that I have already listed all of the issues and they haven’t been fixed. Oh, well.

            Thank you for your advice, I really needed to hear it from someone else!

  205. tricolero*

    A sensitive subject but I am looking for input on how other employers handle leave due to miscarriage and pay. Our sick leave/PTO allowances are pretty minimal and there’s no legislation around it in the country I work in. So in theory if an employee suffers a miscarriage and is out of PTO/sick days then she doesn’t get paid until she comes back to work. This feels harsh to me but I don’t know how other companies handle it – so here I am AAM team! Interested to hear how other employers approach this (and hoping to hear of flexible and supportive policies/practices). Sorry for raising a difficult topic.

    1. Mama Bear*

      I think it doesn’t matter what the sick leave is for – anyone could have any medical emergency. If your company would give someone getting emergency care after a skiing accident some paid leave or other leeway with leave, then they should provide same for this person, IMO. Is there any short term disability option, flex time, work from home, or leave bank? Depending on the type of loss, she might still go through a delivery. If your company would provide 6-8 weeks of short term disability for a healthy birth, IMO, it should be considered for a miscarriage or stillbirth as well. Short term disability would also give her a paycheck, even if it’s a smaller one.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Also, if your company offers bereavement leave, it might be relevant here, especially if it was a late-term loss. I think anytime after the first trimester I would have at least asked about bereavement leave, especially if I planned a funeral.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In an area with mandatory sick leave law.

      We do allow people to draw on future sick/PTO if they want to but then it just makes them go into the negatives and they’d have to pay it back if they left before it was accrued.

      So if someone is out of PTO/Sick and doesn’t want to advance it from their next year’s buckets…sadly it’s just unpaid leave. We let people take unpaid leave for just about any reason. But yeah, we wouldn’t ever just give extra PTO to someone who is experiencing a medical emergency, sadly that’s a slippery slope if you start picking and choosing times to pay people when they’re out of their paid time off. It’s harsh but yeah, unless someone has unlimited paid sick leave it just doesn’t work like that.

      1. WellRed*

        Thank you for putting this so succinctly. It’s a sad situation and I get that it feels there should be extra consideration but it’s that slippery slope. This is what happens when companies cheap out on PTO

      2. tricolero*

        Thanks for the replies so far. In answer to the questions – after 24 weeks company paid maternity leave kicks in so if it were a mid to late term loss the employee would have rights to the full leave. Whereas our paid maternity leave is generous, our paid sick leave isn’t and so for early term losses there really isn’t much beyond a week or two, which can be eaten up real quick if someone goes through repeated loss or for example has an absence due to flu and uses all their sick leave on that – then they’re out of luck. State assistance would kick in but it’s not close to a salary payment each month.

        Using the other examples of the ski accident etc. once you’re out of PTO/sick leave there’s no discretion or grey areas.

    3. LGC*

      Woof.

      First – are there local laws? In the US, for example, federal law is really skimpy but some states and cities build on that baseline. (More should, at the very least.)

      I’m in an area with disability leave and sick leave laws. Disability kicks in after a certain time and pays 2/3 of the employee’s wages (up to a certain amount a week – it’s not high, but it’s not peanuts). I’d think that if you were on extended leave, like more than a week or two, that would be the first option (if you work for an employer with more than…I think 15 employees).

      My employer only allows full-time employees to borrow PTO, and only up to five days. (Most employees are part time.) Which is rough. We also force employees to clear their PTO balance before disability insurance kicks in. In the case you listed, you’d be eligible for disability right off the bat, I think.

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      I live in a country with no obligation for paid sick leave (though we do have much better paid annual leave than the US).

      Last year I had a miscarriage followed by suicidal post natal depression. I had no paid sick leave.

      My company was really nice in that they let me take as much time off as I needed but they were less nice in that they didn’t pay me a penny except when I was using annual leave. I was €13,000 down over the year.

  206. Contact dermatitis*

    I’ve got an ongoing case of what my doctor says is probably contact dermatitis, where the skin on my wrist/hand will dry, flake, and bleed from many small spots. This is an ongoing thing I’ve dealt with for decades, never fully goes away, and it’s badly aggravated by using pretty much any soap other than The One Brand That Works For Me, using cleaning products without wearing gloves (including doing dishes), using hand sanitizer, or just in general handling stuff with harsh chemicals, dyes, and/or fragrances. I’m treating it in accordance with my doctor’s advice, but it’s a management thing rather than a cured thing.

    It’s to the point where I will sometimes bleed on the paper I’m taking notes or doing scratch work on, and I’m pretty careful to avoid touching people when I can (I haaaaate handshakes and people who insist on them).

    Anyway, it’s cold and flu season and the office is heavily focused on everyone using hand sanitizer all the time and everyone wiping down surfaces using Clorox wipes all the time. My hands are already bleeding somewhat because I had to use The Wrong Soap a few times on Sunday (at someone else’s house) and they’re still mad on Friday. I can’t use hand sanitizer or use wipes to wipe down surfaces or else it’ll be to the point were I’m actually leaving little blood smears on things when I rest my hands/arms on them.

    It’s stressing me out and I feel like I can’t win. I don’t want the flu either, so I get why we’re all on Germ Patrol, but I feel like me bleeding on everything will not actually help the Germ Patrol cause, and having a bunch of extra open wounds on my hands/arm will of course make me more vulnerable to bloodborne diseases in addition to the regular ones, and I’m just, so. tired. of everyone glaring at me for not using hand sanitizer constantly (it’s been LEFT ON MY DESK by a “helpful” co-worker) or wiping down things with Clorox all day long.

    Bleh.

    1. Mama Bear*

      I’d tell people you are allergic to those products and ask them to trust that you will use something appropriate for your health, and theirs.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      Can you use gloves to do your “share” of the wiping down with Clorox?
      And a cheerful, thanks for the hand sanitizer, I cannot use it though, doctor’s orders!, might help.
      Especially if you add that you are using the soap he recommends to sanitize your hands.

    3. WellRed*

      They can’t mke you use hand sanitizer (I don’t like it myself). as to clorox wipes is there a substation you can make and just explain why? Cause I will never forget the flu virus that passed through our office one holiday week and we do a bit of wipedowns on fridge and microwave handles.

      1. AccountantWendy*

        Extra second Mama Bear’s comments! I cannot stand Germ Patrols. People can do whatever they want with their bodies and workstations but people giving YOU crap when actual open wounds are WAY MORE DANGEROUS to you than anything that can be killed by a Clorox wipe is ridiculous and should be treated as such.

        Alison often says meet ridiculous situations by calmly pointing out they are ridiculous. “I cannot use these products because they aggravate my existing health condition and open wounds are dangerous to me. OF COURSE you don’t mean to endanger my health!”

      2. Contact dermatitis*

        At home, I usually wipe down surfaces with a combination of vinegar, water, and perfume/dye free dish soap (unless we’re talking cleaning the bathroom or similar level of mess, and then I just wear thick, long-sleeved rubber gloves). I’m not sure there’s anything I can use that comes in premade wipe form, and it’s dangerous to mix bleach and ammonia so I’m not sure it’d be smart for me to use a vinegar-based cleaner on surfaces that everyone else is using a bleach-based cleaner on. We’re also supposed to only used approved cleaning products from a list at work rather than bring in random stuff. I bring in my own hand soap and keep it in the bathroom (and go wash my hands pretty regularly as appropriate), but bringing in unapproved things to clean surfaces rather than my own hands might be an issue.

        1. WellRed*

          Well, the point is to get approval. At any rate, if you have explicitly stated the problem, they suck if they won’t work with you on this. They also seem a bit over the top on their disinfecting, so they may not be reasonable. And what you’re asking is very, very reasonable.

          1. Contact dermatitis*

            Well, we have a lot of members of the public around and breathing on us, so I think that’s why everyone’s so focused on wiping everything down all the time. Think something kind of like a school or library setting in some ways. I work at an assigned, personal desk in a room that also has tables that over a hundred different people, some of them 12 year olds who do not cover their mouths when they cough, may decide to sit down and use for a while.

    4. Bagpuss*

      Yikes.
      I think if you know who the ‘helpful’ coworker is you could say to them “Thanks for offering them to me, but I can’t use the hand sanitiser or wipes for medical reasons” and the same any time someone offers it to you.

      Would it cause a reaction for you if someone else used the wipes on your desk? I know that there are products which I react to if I touch them but where I don’t react if I come into contact with a surface they have been used on, once it is dry. If that’s the same for you you could perhaps mention that and explain that while you can’t, unfortunately, use the product directly you are happy for others to use it on your desk as long as they let you know so you can avoid contact until it dries.

    5. Ranon*

      Hand washing is a completely reasonable (and often more effective) substitute to hand sanitizer- I’d put the bottle back on your coworkers desk, say “thanks, but I can’t use this, but of course I’m washing hands frequently” or whatever, and carry on. As for wiping surfaces down all the time, I think gloves may be your best bet if you must participate- but I also suspect they’re going waaaay over best practices for cleaning for disease control (insofar as you can control airborne germs like that with anything other than very generous sick leave). You may be able to find cleaning guidelines from the CDC or another agency that would calm this down some.

      How is anyone with a fragrance sensitivity surviving your office? I’m not particularly sensitive and clorox wipes make me feel awful.

  207. Yes Anastasia*

    Feel-good story I thought y’all would enjoy:
    Years ago, I worked in a very conservative public library where my LGBT book display was censored by management. I wasn’t out then (and am still in the process of figuring out my sexuality – bi-erasure, ugh), but it was a really unpleasant experience.
    I just learned that a historic LGBT rights conference took place literally 4 miles from my former workplace, and the location is now being promoted by a public history partnership in my state as a historical landmark. I wish I’d known about this eraased history when I worked there, but regardless, I am feeling very smug right now.
    This town has a lot of negative energy for me, but I will be driving through it in a couple months – any suggestion for symbolic rituals to help me make peace with my time there? (Alas, I cannot actually glitter-bomb the library as I am still a professional in the region.)

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      Perhaps a visit to the historic site might help? There’s an old Jewish tradition of putting a stone on a grave when you visit to mark that you’ve been there. I do that sometimes with historic sites, bring a stone with me and mark the place with it. Might help.

      1. Yes Anastasia*

        I am familiar with that tradition and it’s just the sort of suggestion I needed. Thanks!

    2. Public Facing Librarian*

      It actually helps to tell your story. Thank you for sharing. I recently experienced well-meaning (bless their hearts) censorship of an exhibit. It was a stressful experience that continues to have repercussions in public relations. There is a new book from ALA , Beyond Banned Books, that I highly recommend.

      1. Yes Anastasia*

        I’m sorry you experienced a similar thing. When it happened to me, everything went down internally so the public never knew – instead it was just me railing to my (supportive but helpless) boss.

  208. Bridie*

    I’m going to be flying out of state for an in-person interview and site visit in two weeks. The town it’s in is one my boyfriend and I have both been targeting as a good place to begin our post-college careers, although we don’t plan to live together. He just got a job and an apartment there, and I feel like I’m getting pretty close to a few offers!

    My question is, is it appropriate for my boyfriend to stay with me in the hotel room this company has booked for me? I haven’t seen him in several months and I’m only there for a day and a half. On one hand, I don’t think I owe this company anything besides my time during the actual interview, but OTOH, they are paying for everything and of course they only intended these arrangements for me. I would have suggested that I stay with him or family I have in the area rather than a hotel, but this is my first experience with this and I didn’t want to rock the boat. Having him with me wouldn’t cost them anything, and I can’t see how they’d even find out… But am I over the line here?

    1. WellRed*

      Nope, not all! For the record, you could have also suggested staying with family (that includes bf) if you wanted. It likely would have been fine.

    2. Kiwiii*

      As long as you doublecheck that there’s no additional fees on the hotel room and prepare your boyfriend for the chance that they may want to do some kind of work dinner while you’re there, I think you’re 100% to have him stay with you. Mentioning that you have friends or family in the area you’re hoping to see may be useful at some point.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        Yes double check this! Lots of hotels charge different rates for single or double occupancy.

    3. wingmaster*

      You should be fine to have you bf with you in the hotel room. Usually, the hotel room will give you two keys, or at least in my experience of checking in at hotels for out of state interviews. I’ve had my mom come with me one time. Good luck on your interview!

  209. Lyudie*

    Are grad school questions okay for this? Apologies if not…

    I’m in my first semester as an official part of my program. I’ve taken four other classes as a non-degree student but just applied to and was accepted over the summer. So I finally have an advisor now, but I’m not sure how I’m supposed to work with her. For the record, I was out of school/working for 20+ years and this is my first time in grad school (I have a BA from the ’90s). So I feel like I don’t really know *what* I’m supposed to be doing in general.

    She has not reached out to me at all, I contacted her before the semester began because I couldn’t enroll due to an advising hold. I guess that’s going to be the case for every semester, because I again have an advising hold an enrollment opens in a couple of weeks. Is this the norm? I understand in grad school you’re expected to be “in charge”, for lack of a better term, and control your own educational experience but I also hear about people having mentoring relationships with their grad advisors so I am not sure what expectations really are. It’s a non-thesis program so maybe advising is just more hands-off in this case.

    She also informally approved my plan of work a few weeks again, and I just found out it was rejected for being wrong…so I don’t know how great of an advisor she is in general (though of course she could have made a mistake, she is human of course). Other than a ten-minute phone call at the beginning of the semester, emails about the plan of work, and getting good grades in the class so far (she is also my professor this semester) I have had basically no contact with her. She has been responsive when I contacted her for the advising hold and POW and in class and I don’t expect or particularly need a lot of hand-holding…mostly just wondering what the expectations are.

    1. OtterB*

      They can be hugely different, depending on field and on the adviser. If she seems responsive otherwise, I’d suggest going by during her office hours or making an appointment and asking how she sees the interaction with you as working. Maybe ask her what differences she sees between grad-school returners like you and students who go more directly to grad school?

  210. Master Bean Counter*

    It is really hard not to say, “Are you S****** me at work?”

    Also anybody know if you can train a “lifer” to be more professional, at least to outside people? I thought I had made progress with her, but she still fails in spectacular ways that I thought were not even possible.

    1. LGC*

      Ouch! I’m so sorry.

      Anyway. Like, my first instinct is to suggest the trusty PIP. At this point it sounds like she’s not doing her job, if it requires being professional to outside clients. You need to flag that you are Seriously Not Here For This if you’ve already told her this is a problem and she still makes major mistakes.

      But also…it sounds like she’s improved in some ways and has maintained that? What did you do on the previous issues? You might be able to get away with reinforcing where she’s succeeded and focusing on what still needs work. She became terrible over time, she’s not going to become a rockstar overnight.

  211. Llellayena*

    I am very tempted to forward an email to my boss from a client praising my ability to stay on top of things. What’s holding me back is that I get plenty of acknowledgement from my boss already, I don’t really need more. But the email is giving me the warm fuzzies…

    1. Lyudie*

      Do it!! It’s awesome to get good feedback from outside, I bet the boss would be happy to see it.

    2. Yuan Zai*

      Do it!

      One of my former managers told me that they really appreciated it when I forwarded messages like that to them because that gave them an opportunity to advocate for me to get things like bonuses or higher raises because there was Officially Documented Evidence of my value to the organization.

  212. Shared Boss is weird about promotions*

    I am mentoring a colleague, “Sansa”, who reports to the same manager, “Cersei”, as I do. Cersei overseens the business line that I am in, as well as the functional line that Sansa is in. According to Sansa, Cersei has been weird about discussing career progression with Sansa, at first actively avoiding the conversation and then suddenly announcing that it will happen by year end. Sansa is left feeling confused and disheartened that Cersei doesn’t support/advocate for her advancement.
    This hasn’t been my experience with Cersei, but I can see this happening. I’m not sure what guidance to give Sansa – is this just learning for her on how Cersei operates?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, is Sansa asking for advice or just commiseration? Assuming the former…

      AAM has good advice about setting up plans with a manager about how to advance/develop as a professional. “What are areas that you think I could work on improving the most? What are areas that I am excelling in? What are some opportunities that I could take that would allow me to stretch?”

      I recommend against trying to talk to Cersei on Sansa’s behalf, because that just puts you (and everyone else) in a weird place.

  213. Bibliovore*

    oh for f’s sake! I have spent the last two hours reading resumes for a very good, very specialized job that requires multiple languages, high level teaching experience.
    1. please read the job description. Yes, this might be a stretch but it says required, it’s required. And yes if you hate the automated system, believe me, I hate it more.
    2. RESUMES People! If you live in another city other than the job that you applying for, put the city next to place of business. Don’t make me guess where you are/were.

    1. Bibliovore*

      AND no.no.no. please do not write this in your cover letter.” I am polite, considerate, and have strong interpersonal skills.” I think I wrapping it up for the day and picking it back up on Monday.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I feel for you!

      In reality, no matter how well you do laying out the job description, you will get people who send you resumes that are completely out of this world inappropriate for the position.

      I don’t even want to talk about the resumes we got for a Marketing Manager position last time. Lots of people who apparently had “management” experience but when you look at it, not even close. Nor did they have a single thing to do with marketing. Or the people who were trying to say due to their 6 week internship in marketing years ago, they are cut out for a marketing manager role. No.

      1. Yuan Zai*

        Your comment made me laugh. I work in marketing and it never stops amazing me how many people who understand that every other job on the planet has specific requirements think that the only prerequisite for a marketing position is wanting it.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This makes me feel a ton better honestly because we’re small, so marketing is rarely something that needs filled. So I was wondering if we were just getting that kind of applicant because the universe likes to play around with us, you know, lol.

          1. Bibliovore*

            Here’s the thing. We have a commitment for diversity and “outside of the box” and each hiring committee member must read every resume and score it on a spreadsheet rubric. Therefore I can’t just toss aside the resume that “comes close” nor do I want to. Also the cover letter is your chance to succinctly express how the applicant is a fit for the job. Teaching experience means teaching experience. The job will be a lot of instruction. Its a requirement of the job description. Twenty years experience as a teapot researcher isn’t the same.

  214. vanillacookies*

    Does anyone else ever wake up feeling completely scattered, and if so, how does one pull it together and focus on work? I feel like I’ve just entirely lost the ability to focus lately.

    1. WellRed*

      Are you getting the same amount of sleep as always? Have you always had this problem? Is anything going on at work or home?

    2. Betty Wight*

      I try to have a nightly routine I can follow to reduce the number of my morning tasks. I lay out my clothes for the next day, get my lunch together, prep my breakfast (overnight oats are a morning game changer), etc., that way I don’t feel rushed when the alarm goes off.

      As far as work goes, at the end of my day I look ahead and plan what I’ll need to get done the following day so I know how to organize my time. The more prepared I am ahead of time the less frazzled I feel in the moment.

  215. Lynn*

    I am a manager at a small company (less than 10 people). A good friend of mine was hired into another department. She just asked me to get happy hour next week and talk some things through “friend to friend.” I’m pretty sure she is going to complain to me about HER manager, and potentially ask for advice. Me and this manager are the same level. I feel for my friend having a hard time at work, but don’t want to be inappropriate. I know from convos with the other manager than my friend has been struggling in her role. How can I approach this? Is it ok if my friend just wants to vent to me?

    1. Norm*

      You say she’s a “good friend” of yours, so I think it’s OK if she wants to vent with you. You’ll probably have to manage some potentially tricky elements, but good friends are worth it.

      1. valentine*

        I would only do it if your first loyalty is to her and not the job. Because no protocol will stop her being hurt when you can’t keep a confidence or have to tell her she’s not the wronged party.

    2. tamarack and fireweed*

      “I need you to know that you’re talking to Lynn, your friend. Not Lynn, your manager’s counterpart in the teapot lid design department. Lynn, your friend, is completely happy to lend an open ear, and supportive shoulder. If you need to strategize your professional presentation, or how to deal with the emotions you’re going through, I’m all yours. The one thing I can’t do, and I am very very sorry, but I really can’t, is put in a word for you.” Said in the gentlest possible version (not necessarily these words) and only if she goes down the “can’t you DO something?” route.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      If she wants to vent about her manager, it’s perfectly fair on your part to rebuff that in a positive way, while still giving her advice.
      You can say something like:

      “I’m sorry Jane, I cannot really discuss your job performance particulars here. I suggest you schedule some time with your manager Fergus and think about how both of you can define some solutions on how you can make this better.”

      If it’s possible, you could offer help on how to frame this, or practice the delivery, but that depends on whether or not it would break confidentiality.

  216. Sarah-tonin*

    Hi! I love this blog and reading the comments are sometimes more fun than the posts themselves. :)

    Long story short I have two part-time library jobs, and between them I work three nights a week (all until 9), with one of them being Friday nights. That job is being really accommodating – partially in relation to my first job, which they knew about before I was hired (the weekend rotations between the two can be kind of a mess), and partially because I said I like the morning/daytime shifts because I work two nights a week at my first job. However, I really hate these Friday night shifts. (I wouldn’t mind as much but I work Tuesday and Thursday nights at my other job.)

    Would it be rude or unfair to ask if I could not work the Friday night shifts anymore, or at least not every single Friday? We don’t really have set schedules at this job, they’re kind of all over the place from month to month. I don’t want to sound ungrateful. but I just really don’t like having to work every single Friday night.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you weren’t hired specifically to work Friday nights and the schedule technically rotates around for the most part, it’s not rude or unfair to ask about getting some relief from those shifts.

      If you were specifically told they’re looking for Friday night coverage and that would be the shift they’d be looking to fill, then it gets more dicey. It’s still okay to ask of course but it’s frustrating when people are hired for A Shift and suddenly they start having problems with it, you know?

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        Thank you for your response. :) I was not hired specifically for Friday nights – thank god, cause had that been in the description or mentioned in the interview, I would have never applied or accepted.

        I actually wasn’t given a set schedule for this job – just days (with the hours varying) and I actually only have set days because I’m at my other library job the other days (my other PT coworkers have varying days). I didn’t realize I’d be put on every single Friday night though.

        Anyway, thank you! Do you have any suggestions on what to say? I send my manager schedule requests at the end of every month, for the next month (so at the end of October I’ll send December requests) and I’d say something about the Friday nights then. But I don’t know how to phrase it.

        1. Public Facing Librarian*

          when you send your Friday night supervisor you schedule requests, just X out every other Friday and they will rotate the rest. This way you are acknowledging the need for coverage. Its probably too late for October, but have a meeting right away for November and let them know that you can’t work Every Friday evening shift. If you can- take the Friday after Thanksgiving and that will go a long way for good will. It may be given your other scheduling constraints, it just works out this way but have the conversation.

          1. Sarah-tonin*

            thank you! (yay another librarian!)

            it’s too late for october, and it’s probably too late for november, because if the schedules aren’t finalized yet, they will be soon. if I message my manager tonight or maybe even monday, it might be okay.

            do I owe an explination, though? like if I were to send my manager a message and be like “yo, I can’t keep working every single friday night, sorry” do I need to say anything more than that (obviously more professional than what I typed)?

            1. zora*

              I would say it like “I’d really like to start alternating Friday nights and have every other one off [or insert the # you want here]. Would that be possible?”
              No you don’t owe an explanation, and I would frame it as a question to make it a little more professional. And I would be prepared for some kind of negotiation, like if you ask for every other Friday, are you willing to work 2 of every 3, or just 2 per month or something like that?

              1. Sarah-tonin*

                here’s what I said “hi (boss), I have another schedule request. would it be possible to rotate/trade off who works friday nights til 9? (I’m hoping it’s not too late for november but I understand if it is.)
                I feel weird asking, you’re really accommodating with my (other job’s) schedule (especially with the weekends).
                I’m fine working the (another shift option we have) shift on desk, and I can do some fridays until 9 (one or two a month if needed). but not all of them.”

                I hope that was okay and not too harsh or mean or anything negative?

                1. zora*

                  No, this is good! You are asking, but politely. And a good manager will read this as just opening the discussion, of course she can always say that she doesn’t have any flexibility if that is true. But it’s fair to at least ask!

            2. Sarah-tonin*

              okay, I just sent my manager a message. I said that I could work some fridays until 9, 1-2 a month, but not all of them. I probably should have said that I’d take every other one, buuuuut. no. I’ve been working every friday night since I started in may and I cannot do this regular friday night til 9 anymore….

              1. Public Facing Librarian*

                No what you wrote was good enough. Your manager might have more information for you why it shook out this way but it is good to have the conversation. You never have to say “why” you need what you need. It just “is” Your manager might push back if there is no coverage but have the conversation.

                1. Sarah-tonin*

                  thank you to you and zora! :D we’ll see what happens when I go to work tomorrow…

                  I really hope she okay’s my NOT working till 9 more than two fridays a month – like I hope she’d respect that I said I could work 2 at most but not all, like I hope she doesn’t read into the “not all” part and make me work three out of the four a month.

                  I’m wondering if part of the reason I got stuck with these shifts is because I was the last one hired? but soon that won’t be true, because we just had someone else leave for a full-time job, and I’m hoping that means they’ll get stuck with the friday night shift (I’ve been there since may and I started working the night shift solo within a couple weeks after I started).

                  but I also don’t plan on being at this job for too long (like years) as I’m planning on starting to look for a full-time job soon. (not that I’m telling anyone that.) so when I leave, someone is going to have to take this shift anyway.

                2. Sarah-tonin*

                  Got a response from my manager.

                  She said due to my limited availability with my other job (which was known about before I even started, they made me feel like it wasn’t a problem, and now I feel like she’s throwing that back in my face) and due to limited staff availability, I’ll have to keep working Friday nights. She said she might be able to get the new hire (who hasn’t been hired yet) to switch off with me on fridays, cause she knows they’re not the best.

                  All this is fine. I’m not thrilled, but I understand.

                  But then she said that my working Friday nights was mentioned when I was hired by the person who hired me. I said that this wasn’t mentioned to me and that I wouldn’t have asked to switch had I known.

                  This was all done via slack and I left for the day before she could respond, but I’m wondering if there’s anything I can do. I wouldn’t have asked had I known this would be a part of my schedule, but I only got assigned days of the week to be there, no set hours. I ever checked my offer letter and that said the hours would vary.

  217. Public Facing Librarian*

    Well here is a new one. Had a public event today and was heckled. I did the professional thing and acted as if a question had been asked and then wrapped up my part of the event and moved the audience to the next part. Sigh. Have the new Margaret Atwood on the TBR pile for the weekend.

    1. Is My Boss Here?*

      You’re in a big boat with a lot of nice people. If you throw yourself into the public arena–politician, stand-up comic, advocate or activist–people are going to have replies to what you say. Sometimes they’re people who get their jollies launching in on a speaker, any speaker; sometimes, maybe they really don’t go along with what you say. Whatever. You did your job. Enjoy the book!

  219. Petty Person*

    Any tips on dealing with feelings of envy towards a friend’s job hunting success?

    I’ve been friends with someone since high school and we have a 2 year age difference. We’re close friends and I’ve also been an older sibling and mentor figure for this friend. Helped them with college applications, financial aid, etc because I didn’t have anyone to help me and I want to look out for my loved ones. We went to the same college so we kept our friendship strong and now they recently graduated college, two years after me. I’ve been spending a decent amount of time helping my friend with job applications, interviewing, and resumes again because I really struggled with that as a firstgen college grad.

    But now that my friend is getting really great offers after a lot hard work (and with my support)… I can’t help but feel envious. It doesn’t help that my self-confidence has been destroyed after a horrible first post college job and discovering that I spent four years studying a field that I can’t see myself in anymore. They’re getting offers with amazing benefits and will be making at least 30% more than me.

    I don’t know how to stop comparing myself to my friend and letting go of my negative emotions. I feel both really happy for my friend but also can’t completely stop the envy, especially since I’m the older one and feel that I’m horribly inadequate…

    1. Goose*

      I know how you feel. My best friend that I’ve known since 6th grade worked as a senior executive director at a software development company making a quarter million a year, plus stock and bonuses.

      It was very easy to compare his success to my somewhat lesser success, making a little more than half of what he does, and I felt envious of what he’d achieved. This was especially tough when he crowed about his executive compensation package, his special “executives” only savings plan. He now also talked down about the people that worked under him (something he never had done prior to becoming a senior director). He began to worship money and possessions.

      All the while, I kept plugging along at my career and achieved a steady income and provided a good living and secure future for myself and my family. I felt proud of what I achieved, but I still felt envious and inadequate when I looked at his lavish lifestyle.

      Unfortunately for my friend, a new younger executive at this company outplayed him at the social game and got him fired just as his big successful project was launching. My friend worked hard for 5 years straight on this project and all the glory was snatched from him by the new executive at his moment of victory. 2 years of unemployment followed and now he’s a contract software developer/manager at 64 with very little savings to show for it.

      I believe he envies me now as I’ve been able to retire comfortably. The last time we spoke, he foresees many years of additional labor until he can retire.

  220. Katelyn*

    I’m currently working in a non profit field at a fairly well paid job. My salary makes sense given that others with my skill set usually work in the private sector and that’s what they’re trying to get people from,

    Will this hurt me when I want to move on to a next job in this field? Right now what I have is sort of an entry level role, but paid more than other similar ones in the field, and with a more prestigious organization . Any suggestions on how to deal with it?

  221. Is My Boss Here?*

    We recently had a splashy event for a major client, with our upper management flying in. The day before the event, my boss of a couple of months jumped on me for something (maybe justified to speak to me about, but not to the extent I was chewed up). In the course of that, Boss told me one of the upper management had had “negative feedback” about me so I needed to show him my sweet side when he came. Boss didn’t tell me what this “negative feedback” was or who it came from or when. I felt awkward and uncomfortable around her for the rest of the day, and very much so with Upper Management Guy at the event, as if I were being scrutinized for sweetness. Even though UMG said some nice things about me to my face. I kept wondering what he was actually thinking about me the whole time he was complimenting me.

    I’ve wondered at her timing since them. Anyone have a view on this?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It is generally crappy managers who make vague comments like this, and then fail to provide any concrete examples of what you supposedly did wrong.

      It comes off as gossipy “I had negative feedback about you…” and the timing to tell you that before a major event was intended to throw you off and demoralize you.

      A GOOD manager would have given specifics. Such as: “Grandboss Fergus is coming in for this event. I want you to take care with A and B because he has expressed some concerns about your attitude not being accommodating enough.

      The whole “sweet side” thing sounds icky to me personally. IDK what is intended by that exactly? I’m taking it in the context that maybe somewhere you didn’t sound helpful or upbeat enough or something you said may have come off sounding as you being put out or harried/annoyed?

      1. Is My Boss Here?*

        Thanks so much, I appreciate your view.

        We were all told to turn on the charm and mingle at the event, but when I’d approach a guest, a higher-up staffer would come up, introduce themselves, walk the guest away from me and leave me standing there. Everybody was designated to take phones for an hour or two so all could mingle and calls would be answered. But some people blew it off. I didn’t want UM and guests to hear phones ring and ring, so I finally went to the back and just answered phones for most of the time, which I suspect might have made Upper Management see me as unfriendly or unhelpful, not participating in the event.

        We are chronically understaffed so I’m always harried and am aware I might sound annoyed, but when I already have 2 or 3 “priorities” and even more comes in the door and gets thrown at me, all I can see is more demands on my time and absolute instructions to get it all done or else. Before her promotion, New Boss always gave the impression of being right on top of things, but since she took over I’m seeing that, among other things, she is unaware of a lot of what I do and have traditionally been responsible for. She told me Old Boss didn’t transition the job to her very smoothly so I’ve tried to make things as easy as I can for her. However, for example, I just spent a lot of my scant time trying to do something I’d always done before, found out there was a new procedure and followed up with corporate (cc’d New Boss). NB replied that she’d already handled it. She didn’t follow through with the appropriate people (so they were coming to me). I asked if she was going to take care of that from now on and got a vague nonanswer. Recently some very important paperwork was misrouted to our dept. I informed New Boss and followed up w/ the sending dept. (cc’d New Boss) about how to handle. Turned out New Boss wanted me to send paperwork on to the intended recipient and was miffed when I double-checked w/ sending dept. I said there might be a procedure in place to cover the misroute, given the nature of the paperwork, and that it might not be proper for us to reach out to intended recipient. That was the case, which didn’t surprise me, based on my experience with such paperwork. I’m beginning to see New Boss as a rah-rah cheerleader, always upbeat but flying by the seat of her pants/clueless on administrative and procedural matters.

  222. Spooncake*

    So I have something of a dilemma. I love my job and my immediate colleagues, and after a long time in this company I finally started to make a few friends. My boss has been hugely understanding and supportive through years of mental and physical health issues, and the company paid my fees for my masters degree (which is in a related subject to my job). I don’t know if I’d get this level of support elsewhere, and it’s been great. The problem is… I moved house a year ago, and now my commute is a nightmare. I can’t drive due to anxiety, so I have to get public transport, and since the move this involves a bus and two trains. This should be relatively straightforward, and take an hour door-to-door. Unfortunately it really doesn’t, because the UK has a notoriously terrible railway network, and this week I have had a total of ONE journey without any delays. My health issues are made worse by stress, and I’m allowed to work from home occasionally to give myself a break from travel and prevent flare-ups, but this situation is really getting to me. I don’t want to leave, but the commute is taking such a toll on me that I’m starting to think I might have to. Should I talk about this more with my boss to see if there’s a chance to work remotely more often? Or perhaps to come up with another solution? I’d be interested in hearing about how others have handled similar things.

    1. Reba*

      Yes! Talk with your boss!

      And remember, while yes they’ve done nice things for you, they have done them because *YOU also bring value to them.*

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I hate to say this, but why did you move so far away from work knowing you face such anxiety and can’t drive? It seems kind of counterintuitive.

      Long commutes play havoc on our lives. I’d talk to your boss about more flexibility in working hours, either working from home more often, or flexible start times that may help beat the rush.

      1. Spooncake*

        Both rent and mortgage payments closer to work are prohibitively expensive- and, as I said, the commute is supposed to be straightforward, so it shouldn’t have been too much of an issue. On a good day, it is straightforward! But there are far fewer of those than there ought to be.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      absolutely ask if you can work remotely more often. It sounds like everyone knows the trains suck.

  223. Scout Finch*

    Friend (F) suspects a coworker (C) is rummaging through her desk. C will comment on things that can only be known by someone looking at documents in desk. F’s locking file cabinets are missing keys, so she cannot lock anything up.

    Would a hidden desk camera be legal? Workplace (higher ed, natch) is in TN.

    I told her to write “C – Please stay out of my desk!” in big letters on a piece of paper and put a copy in each drawer.

    Any ideas? C is a pushy, nosy person who wants to be in all coworkers’ conversations. If she were asked to stay out of others’ desks, she would bulldoze over any objections. She is a longterm employee. Manager of department is weak & avoids conflict.

    1. Reba*

      What?! She should push hard to get the keys or cabinet locks replaced! This is a basic office security thing.

      I like the note but I don’t think that would stop this lady. And the camera seems really aggressive and not likely to reflect well on your friend.

      1. Scout Finch*

        Thank you for the reply.

        She did put a request in with facilities to get her keys fixed (not sure when that will happen – they are without a locksmith (he quit) at present). C has a relative that works in facilities. C rides in early (like 6 AM) with the relative and openly brags that she can get into any office because her relative has master keys. I think C is bored when she comes in so early and just rummages thru everyone else’s stuff.

        I am hoping she gets her file cabinet keys replaced soon. She really needs to get outta that place.

        1. LGC*

          …so C blatantly invades people’s privacy and brags about it, and people are okay with this?

          I think you know this already, but F doesn’t really have a “my coworker is going through my stuff” problem, and I’m not sure that even keys would fix it. I think this might be an HR issue, if management can’t be trusted to deal with it. (And yeah, HR isn’t a babysitter, but this is fairly serious. I’m not sure if F works with confidential files, for example.)

  224. Anonamon*

    I need help with rejecting a potential job offer with a specific mentor, say at Teapot University. I’m in academia, and have spent the past year networking, finding job opportunities, and interviewing. I just had my interview at Teapot U, and the mentor there emailed me on the same day asking if I was still interested, and if so she would advocate for me. While I would have preferred mulling over it a week, I didn’t want her to continue spending her political capital in me because it wasn’t a good fit, so I told her I was withdrawing from the opportunity because it wasn’t a good fit.
    Her response was, ahem, very upset. She said she had spoken to multiple senior people about my career trajectory and seemed miffed at “wasting her time” (I think she has spoken to one senior person for an hour, for what it’s worth). She seemed to take the rejection very personally, and now we have a phone call to discuss why I changed my mind.
    How do I tactfully have this conversation, without burning a bridge? She’s pretty junior, and I think she’s taking it too personally (I’m applying for a job), and the emotional tenor of the whole situation feels more like a break up than a job discussion.

    1. Reba*

      Oof. If possible, try to delay the call, to enforce a cooling-off period?

      Try explaining the interview as two-way street thing. If you are close with this person, you could also try gently naming exactly what you said here: “I’m getting the feeling that you’re taking my career choices pretty personally. I appreciate your efforts, but this is still my interview and my career, right?”

      Finally, consider trying to gently downgrade the relationship. Someone who is both “pretty junior” and prone to taking your career choices way too personally is not likely to be a very effective mentor.

      1. Anonamon*

        Thank you, all great suggestions! I don’t think I’ll be able to move the call, but at least it will be over with soon.

        I think the downgrading is really key.

  225. Decima Dewey*

    I have two stories about Mr. Lastname, one good, one bad.

    The story starts with a newly hired librarian from Virginia who was assigned to a branch in a rough neighborhood near Temple University. The idea was for him to learn the ropes from a branch manager who’s been in the system awhile. Except that the branch manager resigned for personal reasons. On the branch manager’s very last day in the system, there was a police standoff. Yes, this is the news story about the 6 cops that got shot. The police needed a command center, and the branch was the logical choice. So the branch was closed to the public and put on lockdown. Branch staff could not leave for several hours after the normal close of business. The branch reopened in a day or two, and now New Hire is the Acting Branch Manager. A few weeks later, the branch got a call from someone threatening to shoot up an upcoming Open Mike program. The branch staff are now understandably anxious about working there. To make matters worse, Acting Branch Manager is still on probation, and could (in theory at least) be fired if he puts a step wrong.

    So the Grandboss for that area and the Great Grandboss who handles all the branches appealed to branch managers throughout the system to work one or two days a week at the traumatized branch. There’s implicit sexism, whether from Grandboss, Great Grandboss, or both: all the branch managers asked to do so are male. Mr. Lastname knows the reighborhood and isn’t afraid of it. He asked me if I was okay with him doing that (I’d have to be in charge here when he’s at Other Branch), and I said yes. Our Grandboss and the Great Grandboss are pleased he agreed to do this, because many branch managers did not.

    1. Decima Dewey*

      Now for the bad. Circulation asked our Grandboss for a meeting without Mr. Lastname present. This became a meeting with Mr. Lastname and me in attendance. When it was time for the meeting, a shop steward from Circulation’s local was also present. In general Circulation feels micromanaged and disrespected by Mr. Lastname. A lot of this is a matter of tone: Mr. Lastname isn’t aware that he comes off as condescending and aggressive. One of the complaints was about what Circulation sees as nitpicking about attendance and arrival times on the timesheet. Grandboss explained that she asked Mr. Lastname to keep track of attendance issues because the Circulation staff at our branch has a long standing reputation for late arrivals, absences, etc. The trouble is that Mr. Lastname *also* has a record of attendance issues. During this part of the meeting, the shop steward pointed out that Circulation staff had all essentially confessed to attendance issues and had to do better, and that Mr. Lastname also has to step up his game when it comes to attendance. So far, the meeting was contentious, but productive.

      Then the meeting turned to the complaint that brought the shop steward to the meeting. A month or so ago Mr. Lastname began having one on one meetings with all staff members. This made staff members uncomfortable–not in terms of sexual harassment, more of “Oh, no, now what?” thing. During one of these one on ones, Mr. Lastname met with Clea, newly promoted from Seasonal to Part-Time. He commended her for trying to better herself and having goals and warned her not to be influenced by others who “don’t have goals”. Mr. Lastname didn’t name names. Since this is only branch Clea has ever worked in, she took this to mean the people she worked with everyday. Clea told her immediate supervisor about it, and ended up in tears. Her coworkers were *deeply* offended by the idea that they aren’t trying to better themselves and don’t have goals.

      Now here’s another reason Mr. Lastname should not have said what he did. To use a military analogy, Circulation staffers are Non-Coms, librarians and branch managers are officers. Librarians start as, say 1st Lieutenants, and through trainings and promotional exams, can rise through the ranks. By contrast, Circulation staffers start as buck privates, can also rise through the ranks–but no higher than Sergeant. In addition, most City workers on Circulation’s level work Monday through Friday 9 to 5 at the same location every day. In the library, all staffers have to work two late nights a week (11 to 7 or 12 to 8, depending on the location), and have to work every other Saturday during the school year (they get a day off during the week when they work Saturdays). If a Circulation member wants to rise above Sergeant, they have to transfer to another City agency. And we lose Circulation staff regularly to other agencies who work more normal hours.

      Mr. Lastname tried to explain why he’d said what he said, essentially digging the hole deeper. Each member of Circulation was in tears at some part of the meeting.

      There will be other meetings, we just don’t know when.

  226. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

    I feel like I have more bad luck job searching than the average person. It took me more than a year to get a job after I graduated, and it’s taking me more than a year now. I get interviews but rarely job offers. I see people with as much experience as me get jobs within 6 months max! When I was in grad school, I consulted our career services office often for advice and interview prep. My career counselor was genuinely stumped at my lack of success compared to my peers. Her only standing advice was to “network more”. My suspicion is that it might be my interviewing skills. I don’t think I’m doing anything super weird in interviews, but I’m by nature shy and probably don’t come across all that personable or confident, which I’m trying to work on.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t know why it is that way sometimes. It could be your skill set versus demand where you live (job hunting can be very regional). Or, as you’ve said, it could be your interviewing skills. Are you getting past the phone screens to actual interviews? If so, it’s either a competitive market or your interviewing. It happens to all of us, I didn’t get past two phone screens a week ago and I’m a seasoned interviewer.

      All I can say is practice, practice, practice! It is key to feel comfortable and prepared (though a little initial nervousness is acceptable). Have a friend interview you and video it. Play it back and assess your presentation and responses and how you’re coming across. If you have a college career center, they’ll often do this for you and it’s the best way I’ve found to practice.

  227. Argh!*

    Just curious — if you are or were overweight, fat or obese, what are some things that people have said or done to you at work that were tone deaf? I’m not talking about outright bullying, but just thoughtlessness or attempts to be nice that were not very nice at all. Like, “Have you lost weight?” to which I answered, “Yes, I’ve lost 60 lbs.!” (still 25-55 to go depending on what my doctor considers “healthy.”) then… after the usual congratulations, and me saying thank you, which should have been the end, my coworker who has never been overweight said “I know how hard it is – one time I tried to lose 5 lbs. It was really hard, and I didn’t lose the weight.”

    We all lose 5 lbs overnight just from breathing!

    Have any of you had to deal with similarly well-meaning but totally wrong coworkers?

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      There was an overnight delivery guy that I would say hello to if I was near the receptionist’s desk when he showed up. One day he showed up, and I was too far away from him to carry on a conversation, but close enough to wave to him, so I waved. He called out that he needed me to come over, because there was something he had to tell me. So I went over to him, and he said, “Before I thought that you were pregnant, but I just found out that you’re not pregnant. You’re just fat!” And he laughed and laughed. My eyes filled with tears, and I quickly walked away. He looked bewildered. It was as if he expected me to laugh and laugh with him.

      I never found out who told him that I wasn’t pregnant. I figure that whoever told him that must have told himself/herself, “Thank goodness he asked me about this before he spoke to Millie,” never thinking that he would go out of his way to tell me that he had thought that I was pregnant and then figured out that I was “just fat.” I saw him once more, when he pleaded with me to come over and talk to him, but I ignored him, and after that, he never came back. I figured that either some co-worker had heard him tell me that he found out that I was “just fat” and reported him to his company, or maybe he got hit by a bus.

      Some people say that you shouldn’t ask a woman when she is due, because if she isn’t pregnant, it will hurt her feelings, but IMHO it’s much worse to suspect a woman is pregnant, and then find out that she isn’t pregnant, and then proceed to tell her so and tell her that you realize that she’s “just fat” instead of keeping quiet and thanking your lucky stars that you didn’t open your mouth.

      1. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

        Um WTF – this guy was deliberately being rude. Saying that is SUPER unnecessary. It’s one thing to have a brain fart and accidentally assume someone is pregnant, but there is absolutely no context in which you need to go out of your way to say “I just realized you are actually fat!” Huh?!

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      I know this doesn’t answer your actual question but I just wanted to address the “lose 5lb overnight from breathing” myth.

      You actually only lose about 1 lb overnight from breathing. We breathe out about 5lb per day of carbon dioxide and water. That’s during 24 hours not overnight. You would only lose 5lb in a day “from breathing” if you didn’t eat or drink anything at all that day, even a glass of water.

    3. Anon for this*

      When they make a big big deal about you losing weight and everyone starts treating you different. The only thing that changed is the package. Me inside has not.

      I’ve lost about 50 lbs and more to go. I die inside when people comment how great I look, how nice it is that I got with the program and took it serious to lose the chunk. (I was finally able to come off of steroids, which makes this 1000 x easier.)

      The worse is, the people who wouldn’t spit on the best part of me, started paying attention. I don’t get shoved to the back row anymore for group photos. Someone wanted a photo of me for the office newsletter. That would have NEVER happened 50 lbs ago.

      I find now I don’t trust a lot of my coworkers anymore. Was I such an abomination at 230 lbs, you all had no problems marginalizing the fat kid out of the way?

      Losing weight is like being pregnant. Everyone feels they have the right to throw unsolicited comments your way. Unless I have ask for your support in losing weight, I would prefer you to say nothing. Especially, if you’ve been a total jerk the majority of the time I’ve known you.

      I honestly don’t know how people cope who have had bariatric surgery and lose 200+ lbs. You get treated like garbage, then all of a sudden, you are considered worthy of decent treatment as a human.

      Weight is the last thing people have no qualms commenting on. People would never say how cute a female coworker looks in that clingy sweater now. Or how hot those blue jeans make the printer guy’s butt look. If someone has the burning need to comment on a physical appearance to someone you barely know, just don’t. You think it’s being kind. I don’t receive it that way at all.

      Maybe some people love the rah rah go girl drop the chunk stuff from randos. I don’t. Fat shaming is considered sport where I live. I might just be extra sensitive.

      1. Argh!*

        Who wouldn’t be sensitive from being treated differently? I was just a wee bit overweight until I turned 30 and had a health issue. It was like I’d stepped into a different world. I have a high IQ and suddenly I’m presumed to be stupid. My boss is a skinny wench and I think being the fattest person in our area has literally cost me money, since she decides on raises. It sucks.

        The Harvard Implicit Bias project has seen a reduction in bias based on gender or race but an *increase* in bias against fat women.

        We’re not imagining it. We really are being treated like crap.

  228. Freaked Out*

    I should post this update about the manager on steroids (I was told by my main manager they were on this, by the way, and that is why I asked.):

    I decided to simply suck it up and keep my mouth shut while being more accepting and graceful over feedback, even though my very forgiving and understanding main manager did end up writing me up over it (and doing something wrong during the event) and helping me out.

    The next time the mean manager and I were together, we didn’t really speak, as it was not necessary. I accept that I was wrong, and that I “lost the fight”, but it’s not the first working relationship that changed for the loss because I freaked out, so I’m used to it.

  229. Tied to old stressful job*

    I had to leave my old job (retail) when my circumstances changed in September, but I’m still pushing management to take action about a customer who’s been harassing me for over 18 months, and getting really bad for the past 5 months. To begin with, I thought my store manager’s hands were genuinely tied up by policy, but after speaking to my area manager I’ve found out that this customer could have been banned after all! I suffered through 4 months of panic attacks at work for nothing! I’m not really looking for advice but commiseration and support would be welcome.

      1. anon9*

        I am reading this as 18 months from OP’s last day, and getting bad for the last 5 months (so May – September) they were there rather than it being ongoing.

        OP, you are pretty reasonable in wanting this person to be banned. I have no clue what set this person off but 18 months worth of harassment is very much overkill and I’m sorry you had to go through that. However, if your answer to valentine’s question is yes, then you need to start looking into legal ways to keep this person away from you because this is not normal or okay.

        1. valentine*

          If they’re harassing you, you may want to pursue it via an authority other than your former employer and, if they’re not, I’d advise dropping it for the same reason: Having done nothing to protect you, the business may paint you as a disgruntled former employee. They’ll end up minimizing the harassment or downright protecting the offender in order to defend themselves and their inaction.

          1. Tied to old stressful job*

            Ah, sorry for the ambiguity. I left at the end of August this year; the harassment began because I came out as trans at work, and while I have reported to the police under their hate crime procedures, the police weren’t able to do anything because the truly offensive stuff was said to someone else, about me, rather than directly to me.

            1. Tied to old stressful job*

              Forgot to mention, I still live near this guy (rural England) so bumping into him is a possibility.

  230. Jet-Setting (Out of this Job)*

    TL;DR: I am 100% outbound (new job offer accepted with start date + paperwork filled out) from my workplace and I want to say something about toxicity in another department that my department works with closely to MY superiors. Would this be overstepping boundaries? (I changed all names and affiliations!)

    Essentially, I am a member of a team of researchers and doctors in Cardiac Medicine and we work closely with Cardiac Technicians, who are very well trained from my observations. One cardiac tech I am friendly with, Julie, was recently been monitored by her manager during a research procedure. Afterward, I mentioned that it was odd (read: tense) and if next time she could warn me if there will be more personnel in the room because we do a semi-invasive procedure and I would like to let the subject know there will be another body in the room beforehand. She then explains that her management has been selecting her for “random” skills evaluations every two weeks…which seems very scheduled for a “””random””‘ check to me… She then elaborates that these same managers have been doing this to others techs but hearing her speak, I was alarmed that the other techs being targeted seemed exclusively to be black. Julie herself is white but my theory is that management is intimidated by her as she has 25+ years experience as a tech, is a Lead Tech in title and all the doctors absolutely rely on her over management, and they are friendly with her on a personal level as well (I am biased but this is all deserved, she is lovely). There is a pattern of intimidation and bullying that’s been described by other techs as well. Julie has mentioned that she’s developed anxiety to the extent that she has panic attacks some nights at the thought of coming to work, which means this has to be way worse than they are letting on. One of the other techs who has experienced these random checks, with 14 years of experience, has mentioned crying after being berated by management. There haven’t been any known mistakes by these techs to warrant this behavior and even the MD at the research visit was confused on why it was happening. This makes me upset on a personal level because everyone is that department is extremely competent and more valuable than they are giving themselves credit for.

    Personally, again, I am worried I might be projecting. This department’s situation is emblematic of everything wrong with our hospital (specifically bad management and no accountability) and touched on several experiences I have had, notably workplace racism that went unchecked and my own workplace bully, who thankfully left. I don’t want to fight this battle because I have an unsettled, unpicked bone and inadvertently make it worse. Furthermore, our hospital is notorious for these…personalities. Lots of people are “institutionalized” here – they work here for 10, 20, 30+ years and get sucked into this toxicity without realizing it. I was only here for a year and found myself breaking down. While I am onto brighter horizons and have nothing to lose, I wanted to alert to cardiac MDs I work for (3 of them) to how dysfunctional this department is as they collaborate closely, especially in the ICU (I personally work with the techs every two or so weeks of a research procedure). The MDs I work for are pretty nice and because for the hospital hierarchy, they have a ton of clout even though they have no hire/fire authority. Would I be overstepping my boundaries here? I have asked Julie if she would like me to say something but she says it’s not necessary and that “managements always been like this.”

    Any other suggestions on how to do…something, anything, to help would be much appreciated as well.

    1. YetAnotherUsername*

      I don’t think there’s much point in talking about specific incidents. Management won’t do anything unless Julie or one of the other victims is willing to make an official complaint.

      Is there no union? In my country nurses and medical techs are almost all unionised. If there is a union talk to the union. Or an ethics hotline? I thought all big organizations had ethics hotlines nowadays.

      If no union or ethics hotline then either pick someone in the chain of command of Julie’s department (like a grand boss you don’t think is involved), or someone in HR and make an appointment to talk about a concern you have. Tell them that as an outsider, to you it seems obvious that there is a pattern of racist and sexist bullying. Say you don’t want to name names but that you’ve noticed there are frequent “random” inspections on women and POC that don’t seem to happen to the white men in the department and mention that the bosses seem very upsetting in how they give feedback to these minorities. And use the word minorities. It sounds like they will be more worried about impact on the organization than the staff so you want to get them to remember that this is illegal if it’s gender and race based. Don’t name names, but tell them you wanted to raise this because you’re concerned and you think an investigation is warranted.

      I think that’s all you can do, other than encouraging the victims to push back as a group.

      1. Jet-Setting (Out of this Job)*

        Thank you for the response and I agree – the pattern is what is concerning. If it was one-offs and their managers were just rude generally, it would probably be fine.

        They do have a union and I know Julie is somewhat active in it. I can see what support they offer. The ethics hotline exists but is generally advertised for things such as kickbacks, sexual misconduct, stealing etc.

        I think I will investigate on Monday who their internal director is (I do know who their medical director is), just to have the information handy, and let Julie and co know that HR is an option, and if they drag their feet, the EEOC is also an option as this teeters on an actual hostile work environment. I am not versed in how to talk to our hospital’s HR but I know someone else who has gone through them to settle a workplace dispute so I will consult with them – I might start with just assembling all this info and presenting it to everyone.

        I will speak to Julie again on Monday. She’s been here so long that finding another job isn’t a real option in her mind (the salary she makes here is far beyond what another hospital would give right out the gate and she really likes this place and the people) but hopefully I can get it through that this isn’t behavior she *has* to just accept.

  231. None the Wiser*

    Late, but maybe that is for the best.

    So this happened, late Friday evening.

    I checked LinkedIn and there was a message from a recruiter requesting a phone call for a position (start-up? Not sure where they are in the funding cycle) that sort of fits my expertise. Location? Walking distance from my late father’s place of employment.

    Now, I was never fond of the area in which I are up, even as a child. I graduated from the state university and did my advanced degree at a university on the same coast, and then made a break for the opposite coast. My spouse and I live elsewhere in the US now, but still thousands of miles away from where I grew up. We like where we are and for this and a number of other reasons, I am not interested in this position.

    I will write a polite thank-you but no-thank-you to the recruiter, because that is what one does, but thought I would come here to share my inner chuckles at the subtext note:

    “Dear Recruiter,

    Thank you very much for reaching out to me regarding the Senior Llama Grooming position at Llamas R Us, located in Area Where I Will Never Live Again If I Have Anything to Say About It. Imagine my surprise when I learned the facility is but down the road from my late father’s place of employment and only five miles from my childhood home. Unfortunately, I have determined that the optimal distance from my remaining family members is in the thousands and not single miles, and therefore will have to declare that I will not be making a change at this time. I wish you the best of luck in identifying a suitable candidate.

    Kindest regards,
    None the Wiser”

    1. valentine*

      I wouldn’t do this. It’s like blaming them. I would read it as offended, if not downright bitter.

      1. None the Wiser*

        Umm…I think I know enough not to send *that* note. That’s why I posted it here. The note I *actually* sent was a short, polite “thanks but not looking to make a change at this time but will let you know if I think of anyone best regards etc.”

        I thought I made that clear in my post, but maybe not.

  232. Working Out at Lunch Lady*

    Oh, I’m so late!

    Does anyone have any advice for a female exec working out at lunch? Tips on makeup recovery, managing the sweaty workout clothes situation, etc.? I’d probably be running; my building is adjacent to a really nice residential area. I have access to a locker room with showers at work.

    Thanks!

  233. What now?*

    I’ve had a lifelong struggle with “mood issues” and went through a very traumatic experience a few years ago. I have done the hard work of trying to stay healthy, therapy, etc. However, I feel like I have really destabilized over the last year and struggle daily with the effects of an alphabet soup of PTSD, OCD, hyper vigilance, anxiety and depression. I’m in treatment but nothing seems to help long term. I’m white knuckling/muscling through each day. I used to be the family breadwinner with a good corporate job with some great marketable skills. I’m now in a low pay part time job working for my husband because I’m mentally and physically unable to handle anything else. Even the part time job is overwhelming and is causing an intense amount of daily stress and destabilization. It’s also putting strain on our relationship. My husband was trying to be helpful and believes in me and I’m well aware of the perils of working with your spouse. I have very few options for work (and mental health care in my rural state and small town.) I feel like I should be exploring filing for a disability claim. I’m afraid to do that because I feel like I’d be throwing in the towel and giving up. I’m curious what others have experienced and what action they’ve taken in a similar situation.

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