open thread – January 3-4, 2020

by Alison Green on January 3, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You don’t dread going to work every day. You aren’t physically suffering because of the psychological suffering you experience at work. It isn’t a cult.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. And I’d also add that your management team advocates for you and your team to ensure you’re adequately staffed and compensated, your time off requests are respected (and no one guilt trips you when you return for taking your hard earned PTO time), your feedback/ideas/input are solicited and implemented when they can be within reason, and you’re constantly learning and growing.

        1. JJ Bittenbinder*

          I love this answer. I’d add that in a healthy workplace, your management creates an atmosphere of trust and one in which you can do your work (have the tools and resources, have decision-making power appropriate to your role, helps with any bureaucracy) and acts a buffer between you and any problems in the next layer of management (i.e., between them and their managers).

      2. Bunny Girl*

        Your boss doesn’t refuse to take action on multiple complaints of sexual harassment against someone bEcAuSe ThEy’Re TeNuRe. And yes I do dread going to work every day.

        1. bleh*

          So sorry you are in this toxicity. I experienced this very behavior at my last institution. He did eventually retire though.

      1. LKW*

        At a healthy work place you wouldn’t have an aggressor, but if there were a conflict, management would hear both sides of any conflict.

        1. fposte*

          I think even in a good workplace people will do shitty things, though. There’s no foolproof way to make sure nobody you hire ever does a shitty thing. The question is how the workplace deals with them when they happen.

        2. CastIrony*

          Lol, nope. I’ve been stepping aside and trying to avoid conflict by changing my work schedule to make sure he’s not having to be near me because my supervisor and boss will not fire him. Good way to push me out of a job, lol

      2. Adlib*

        Yes, this. I liked my previous boss, but boy, was he a squish regarding the bullies I had to put up with from another department. He’d rather roll over than be confrontational.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      I can think of a few areas.

      – the company follows the law (employement law, safety, etc)
      – the employer genuinely cares about the well being of their employees. They want them to do their job well, but without being burnt out or miserable.
      – good performance is rewarded (raises, promotions, more interesting tasks, perks, professional development), bad performance is addressed (up to and including firing).
      – feedback is provided in a timely and clear fashion
      – employees are not blamed for things outside of their control
      – employees are expected to behave in a polite and considerate fashion to other employees, including across power differentials.
      – employees can bring up concerns to their managers, and be listened to, and not punished for doing so.
      – the employer recognizes that their employees have lives outside of work that sometimes impact their job.

      Take the opposite of that for toxic places – places that are punitive, bullying, capricious, vindictive, and demanding, do dodgy semi-legal or really illegal stuff, let bad employees slack and squeeze everything they can out of good ones without reward.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        – good performance is rewarded (raises, promotions, more interesting tasks, perks, professional development), bad performance is addressed (up to and including firing).

        Just to be more specific on this one point, the best employer I ever had prioritised reinvestment in its people (compensation and training) ahead of stakeholder payouts. It was brought up at interview and I saw it happen when I worked there. Unsurprisingly, the business grew and grew and grew, at the expense of its competitors who were more concerned with short-term bottom line; and it was a far, far healthier place to work.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Such a common sense thing, yet how many employers actually do it? Far too few.
          An additional bit of advice that impressed me was the advice to save money during good times and when there are lulls use that money to invest in employee training and upgrades for the systems in place. This is to prepare for the next busy season.

        2. Not a cat*

          The stakeholder/shareholder payouts thing is an interesting and terrible phenomenon. Its genesis can be found in the advent of “business consultants” (McKinsey, BCG, etc.) and their determination that the organization’s actual client is the shareholder NOT the actual client (ie policyholder for insurance biz). It also contributes to outsized CEO remuneration.

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            I have always wondered about this! Is there anything you recommend I could read about it?

      2. Quinalla*

        This is a good list, I would add to this one:
        – employees can bring up concerns to their managers, and be listened to, and not punished for doing so.
        Not just aren’t punished, employees are encouraged and solicited to provide feedback and feedback is followed up on with how action is being taken or why action is not being taken.

        1. Not a cat*

          Also, vague feedback. Recently, I received this comment about a 20-page technical whitepaper- “there is a grammatical error…” with no hint as to where or what the error is. I’ve learned to interpret this as “I don’t like something about the content, but I am not going to tell you why because its more fun for me this way.”

    4. Sherm*

      The AAM archives will show you that there are a myriad forms of toxic, but broadly, I would say a toxic company is one where power is abused. It could be a manager who screams, or demands that you donate your liver, but it could also be a coworker who gets away with murder and knows nothing will be done about it. A healthy and functional workplace is one that is not toxic and one that regularly accomplishes its goals or made a good effort.

      Which leads me to suggest that a company can be neither functional nor toxic — merely dysfunctional. I once worked at a retail store where the boss all the time changed her mind. “Put the llama statues to the left of the rice sculptures.” After I spent a day accomplishing that, I would soon be told “Actually, put them to the right of the rice sculptures.” “No, I think they should go in the back of the store.” “To the front, I’ve decided.” I wouldn’t say it was toxic — it was just annoying instead of psychologically damaging — but it sure wasn’t efficient. Everyone can be nice and sweet and still be dysfunctional.

      1. Roy G. Biv*

        “Which leads me to suggest that a company can be neither functional nor toxic — merely dysfunctional.”
        Yes! This probably more so than anything else, in my work experience. Dysfunctional, in the sense that wasting other people’s time is never seen as a problem, but not getting work accomplished IS a problem. Can you not see how these go together?

        “I would have finished that today, Steve, but you made me sit in a 4 hour meeting with you, and it was pretty obvious I did not need to be in there the whole time.”

        This was the boss that loved to have an audience, and a catered lunch. Hence, loooooong meetings.

      2. Employee of the Bearimy*

        This is an excellent point – my company is dysfunctional in many ways, but we’re not actually toxic. It’s very frustrating a lot of the time, because I can see very clearly how much more we could do if we all actually worked together the way we should, but a lot of that is above my pay grade.

    5. You're toxic I'm slippin' under*

      Healthy: You feel like solutions can be found for most big-picture problems you encounter, instead of feeling like nothing will ever change and everything’s hopeless. You feel like you can be yourself (or at least a professional version of yourself!). When there’s an issue, you feel comfortable bringing it up with your manager. You don’t constantly worry about saying the wrong thing, or other people’s reactions. You’re not overhearing constant grumbling about big and little things in the lunchroom, painting a picture of overall dissatisfaction. People are friendly and feel valued. Everyone isn’t constantly looking over their shoulder or waiting for the other shoe to drop. Everyone feels secure. HR isn’t overworked with interpersonal complaints. You don’t need a glass of wine at the end of every day.

      2. grr pwr into grrl pwr*

        last workplace was the exact opposite of this and yes, i finally realized how dysfunctional it was towards the 1.5 year mark.

        needed several glasses at the end of the day and took a lot of willpower not to get one DURING! glad i am out!

    6. StellaBella*

      To reiterate, the Archives here have a lot of examples of both, so definitely spend time looking thru and reading many of those posts. My take on this, trying to look from the 10,000 foot views would be:

      Healthy:
      -Good policies and practices in place, for everything from hiring and annual reviews to transparency about finances and following the laws of where your employer is based
      -Honesty and directness in management style: management knows how to manage and direct teams and people, have been briefed and trained in how to communicate how to do tasks well, how to coach for success and advancement, and correctly and how to plan for change, and how to strategise
      -Trustworthiness of teammates and management, clear, open communication
      -Clear direction of the team and the company – including startups. Aiming for a set of clear goals.
      -Fair treatment of employers and no favouritism
      -Compensation and benefits etc are fair for the market and across equal roles
      -People are treated like adults
      -Ethics are important in a healthy work. environment, and the staff and management have them, exhibit. them and are guided by policies that enforce them
      -Core competencies for each role are clearly determined, updated when. needed, and are used as the basis for annual reviews and promotion justification as well as other management decisions like termination
      -Open door policy and not having a lot of secret meetings
      -A culture of accountability and transparency of management decisions, a culture that is not prone to gossiping by anyone

      Hope this helps a bit?

      1. Cleopatra*

        I would also add that a healthy environment is made of good communication with i) your boss and ii) your teammates. I for instance have none, which I find quite toxic and psychologically tiring. My boss has never given me any feedback since I started working in their team (nearly a year now), and the coworker with whom I share my small office and I nearly never talk. Not that we re feuding, but at the beginning, he tried to be bossy with me, except that he did not know who he was dealing with !! Ha ! I put him back in his place in a very gracious way. But well, the atmosphere is not very warm… Polite, but icy. And this does not at all make me want to come to the office every morning.

      2. Spreadsheets and Books*

        Management is SO important.

        My last job was an ostensibly good place to work (good environment, work-life balance, benefits, good morale, great community), but my department had some issues. My manager was excellent at his job duties but was given zero support in transitioning to management, and it really showed. I was his first ever direct report and it took me the better part of a year to get up to speed. I was consistently told I’d be trained on tasks, only to later learn that he’d just done them himself because it was “easier.”

        I started around the same time as a new director (my manager’s new manager) and as our SVP was also quite new, my manager was more or less responsible for training his new boss, too. It worked out worse for the new director – he got asked to leave after a little under two years because he received absolutely no support whatsoever and was left with enormous gaps in company-specific knowledge and systems. The SVP played favorites and information by and large bottlenecked with her direct reports, so those of us at the bottom of the pyramid were left largely in the dark. Those on my level and below were constantly left looking like idiots for asking questions about information we didn’t have because emails never made it down the chain to us.

        In the 2.5 years I was there, my department of 7 saw 7 people leave, including people who were hired after me. Great company. Other departments functioned well. Mine was just a trainwreck because management was so poor.

        1. Mama Bear*

          My husband was told “people don’t quit bad jobs – they quit bad managers.” This is very true. People can deal with a lot if they have solid leadership. They will bail if they feel like their manager doesn’t care, or worse, is against them.

          1. Spreadsheets and Books*

            And that’s exactly what happened in my situation. I left because I didn’t get a promotion for the same crap excuse given to a few other people who left for the same reason (primarily related to the aforementioned information bottlenecks). That team lost 4 good, dedicated employees who weren’t given the opportunity to move up and, as a consequence, got a few very poor new hires in exchange.

            I moved on about 9 months ago and I’m so glad I did. No management issues here!

    7. CM*

      I like this question, and, the more I think about it, the less I’m sure that a perfectly healthy workplace exists. But, I think that, if we say all workplaces have healthy elements and toxic elements, and we want to look for workplaces that are MUCH MORE healthy than they are toxic, I think the key things to look for are:

      1) A strong foundation for the organization where the mission and day-to-day activities align, people’s roles and responsibilities make sense, people in key positions have adequate training and support to do their jobs, they follow ethical business practices, there’s good communication & transparency, etc.

      2) The cultural norm is dignity, respect, and accountability for everyone.

      2. Quinalla*

        Agreed that perfectly healthy workplaces are not something that exists, but yes, you want to find one that is overall healthy with a minimum of unhealthy things. I think it is important to know where those unhealthy spots are in your company and make changes as you can, but at least be aware so they don’t bite you or you can work around them.

    8. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      You can be honest with your coworkers and manager. For example, when there was a horribly executed firing I told him I hoped this wasn’t the way the company delt with low performing employees.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Instructions are clearly given to all (no mind reading after the boss makes a casual aside to one person in 7).
      Employees can ask questions without getting mocked or scolded.

    10. girl friday*

      The saddest kind of workplace is the one that is healthy and functioning (non-toxic) but located within a dysfunctional or toxic company. I’ve had that experience, more or less, on my last couple of jobs including my current one. Leaving my last job was painful because I genuinely liked the atmosphere and (most of) the people in the department, but was forced to realize that the company was going downhill fast (so many red lights blinking and then flashing, I felt like my job was not safe in the long term). I’ve jumped to another stellar workplace, but the company (while very stable, and large) is one of the most dysfunctional companies I’ve ever worked for, in a uniquely horrible “too big to fail” way.

    11. SlenderFluid*

      Going into work each day expecting that there’s a good chance you’ll (be allowed to) do something that will leave you feeling you’ve contributed something useful to something at the end of that day.

      For the converse, take the number of weird people in the world and multiply it by the number of normal people in the world, and that’s how many ways a situation can be toxic (and that’s even without cliques, cabals and enablers combining to turbo-charge each other’s dysfunction). As a general rule for when it’s time to start polishing the resume though, I go by waking up feeling stressed because I’ve been dreaming about work and there’s no sense of relief thinking ‘Oh, it was just a dream’, because I’ve woken up to the same situation. Sleep is the ultimate me time, and no one gets to mess with that if there’s any possible way of avoiding it.

    12. WantonSeedStitch*

      Colleagues act collegially. They don’t snipe at each other, sabotage each other’s work, or try to make each other look bad. They help one another and work well together because they honestly want everyone to do well. Managers manage. They give both positive and what my HR head calls “constructive” feedback, promptly and in a professional way. They don’t play favorites, but do reward high performers appropriately. Individual contributors trust and respect their managers. They know that the managers will advocate for them, and that they are invested in their success. When you go into the office, you feel like you are in a place where people want you to succeed and give you the tools, feedback, and support you need to do so.

    13. Jean*

      A toxic workplace is like art, or pornography. Difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.

    14. No Complaints*

      A place where the company understands that every person should not be at 100% capacity at all times and staffs accordingly. In my current group, the work could be done by 4 people, but it isn’t, our group is 5 people. We have room in our schedules and are actively encouraged to do professional development.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        When you take reasonable leave policies into account, 80-90% capacity is the maximum you should expect. Staffing for 75% gets my respect! Space to excel, and to exceed customer expectations.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      It’s hard to say because of how people view “work,” but in general the basics are:
      Adequate pay, good work/life balance, some flexibility, sound leadership and management decisions, a respectful culture, and opportunity to grow and learn new things.

      Bonuses: A strong reward system based on company success, above-average PTO, leadership that is invested in seeing employees grow their skills by training, classes or tuition help.

      Keep in mind though, that some people will still be unhappy even with all of the above. Because I guess that’s just how humans roll. Even a “perfect” environment may not be perfect for you forever if upward movement is limited (which eventually it will be) and good companies may get bad apples. LOL! I think the key is this is recognized and the leadership either encourages the high achievers to move up & outward so they don’t stagnate and become miserable, and also get rid of those rotten apples much more quickly.

    16. Sunflower*

      Generally- one where you feel you have open, safe and respected communication with your boss and where you feel valued and respected. There’s so many little things within that- like some days you’re gonna wanna kill your boss or think your boss handled things badly. Or unhappy with a decision higher-ups made. But you’ve gotta look at the overall picture.

    17. De Minimis*

      People work as a team and share information, both within and between departments. Managers give you the tools and information you need to do your job, instead of just letting you sink or swim. New hires are trained and shown everything they need to know, both in their work and for HR/admin policies [how to enroll in programs, how their leave works, who to contact for assistance, what to do when calling out, etc.]

    18. Nesprin*

      Good work is the priority: policies are aligned with the goal of doing good work, people doing good work are recognized and rewarded, and issues (be they personnel, policy or priorities) preventing good work are dealt with quickly before they fester.

    19. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Co-workers resolve problems — whenever possible — directly with you, instead of running to management/HR.

      When management/HR does hear concerns about you, they tell you about those concerns in detail (including where necessary with a strong warning not to retaliate [and back it up when need be]) and hear your side of the story in full before making any decisions.

    20. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Managers (and other superiors) tell you — clearly and directly — about problems early on, with plenty of time to fix them before any consequences need to happen.

    3. You're toxic I'm slippin' under*

      My intial ideas:

      – Have someone neutral within the company that you can bounce things off to make sure you’re not off-base or reading things wrong, and who can offer their insight
      – Give yourself time to cool down if you feel upset or heated about something – take emotion out of it
      – Try and gauge whether there is a precedent for what you’re asking for
      – Give specific examples, whether it be about what you want to change, or about what you are asking for. Also be specific about what you want or expect everyone involved to get out of whatever it is you’re asking for
      – Be prepared with answers to any questions that might come up – show you’ve thought deeply about what you’re asking for or bringing up
      – Know your own value and what your lines in the sand are
      – Be prepared for all possibilities and think about how your will react if it doesn’t go your way

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Annnddd… when you get what you ask for or get a reasonable compromise, DECIDE to be satisfied.

        It can surprise us when we have a win and some how still do not feel settled. Decide that x solution is the best solution possible given the givens and take satisfaction in having moved this far.

      3. Heat's Kitchen*

        An old colleague of mine and I came up with the “manana rule”. If one of us was upset about something, we could vent to each other about it, but we would never actually respond until the next day. Usually, things calmed down and we were able to have a more reasonable response.

    4. Mockingjay*

      24-hour postponement rule. Whether you are proposing a new idea, a change in process, a fix for a failure, or (especially) you are reacting to a bad situation with coworker, manager, project, sit on it at least overnight.

      This cooling-off period allows you to take some of the emotion out and more objectively evaluate what you want to get or offer. This includes positive emotions; you might be so enthusiastic about Great New System that you can’t see any flaws.

      1. Aquawoman*

        +1. I definitely have a “don’t discuss while angry” rule. Think about it from both sides–it affects you and it affects your employer, how will it benefit your employer to cooperate with the thing you are seeking, does it affect others and if so how. One of the main things I had to advocate for myself about was a workplace bully, but he didn’t just affect me, he affected most of the (high functioning) people who dealt with him, reflected badly on my employer, and caused demonstrably bad outcomes.

      2. bleh*

        This so much. For email responses too. Let that message sit for a day and then see if you still want to send it.

    5. CM*

      Read the classic negotiation book, Getting to Yes! I think everybody should read this book. It will teach you how to identify your own needs and wants (“interests,” to use the same term as the book), how to ask for them in an effective and direct way, and how to deal with a “no.”

      The book also teaches you the concept of a BATNA, Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement — before you ask for something, you should think about what your alternatives are. That will help you in the moment if the person you’re talking to says no or offers you something unexpected instead.

    6. Heat's Kitchen*

      This is a loaded question. Here’s a few things I”ve learned in my 10 years in the corporate world:
      – Set boundaries. Block time on your calendar as needed. I’ve never really needed to save my lunch time, but some places do. Mark yourself OOO when you have an evening appointment. And don’t compromise on those.
      – Know you can say no if you don’t have time. But do it in such a way where you are coming up with a proposed solution (I can’t do X, but maybe Zena has the time. Or I can only do X if you let me take more time to do Z)
      – Talk to your boss (or someone you trust) about where you want to go in the company. What your goals are and ask them what you should focus on to achieve them.
      – Volunteer for additional work, when it makes sense and gets you visible to others in the organization.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think the biggest thing I’ve learned (in reasonable places with reasonable people), is to just….be willing to bring things up. You have to be willing to talk about the things that are causing problems, not bury them, or agonize over them for so long they start burning you out. If it’s not working, it’s worth mentioning sooner rather than later. The tone should always be professional and collaborative, approached in a spirit of problem solving, but you have to be willing to start the conversation.

    8. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      Advocate for other people who need help being heard and you will be seen by others as someone worth advocating for. Not immediately and not always, but after 20 years in my industry, I see that it does come back.

  3. Anonymous Educator*

    How much (percentage-wise) has your salary gone up or down since the beginning of 2010?

      1. Fantasma*

        Same – up 200%. In 2010, I worked in a different field, was underpaid and freelanced on the side.

      2. zora*

        Same, up 200%. I was working in a very underfunded nonprofit and making bad career decisions. So now I’m making a reasonable wage for my area, but really I should be able to make a lot more. I’m aiming for another 50% increase this year.

    4. Gaia*

      86% increase but almost all of that is as a result of moving out of customer service/call center work and into data work in a very specific way.

    5. Diahann Carroll*

      100% as I made 0% at the beginning of 2010, lol. But by the end of 2010? 61% increase since then.

      1. You're toxic I'm slippin' under*

        I just calculated mine at exactly +284% too, wild! I am also no Scrooge McDuck, I was flipping burgers in 2010.

        1. Gatomon*

          Whoohoo! I remember my days rocking the grill! We used to see who could make the biggest flames with the greasy burgers. My stomach cramps now just thinking about trying to eat that garbage.

      3. we're basically gods*

        Also in camp +284%!
        That’s moving from minimum wage to web developer, though…

    7. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Impossible to say; at the time I had a part-time job and was doing freelance work on the side. But at least a 50% increase since then, maybe more.

    8. BeeBoo*

      263%. But over the past 10 years I’ve gotten two masters, worked at 3 different companies, and gone from entry level in a lower cost of living area to senior management in an extremely high cost of living area.

    11. Eliza*

      I’m a contractor who’s paid by the hour; depending on the type of work I’m doing for a particular project, my rates are 25-50% higher than they were. I’m also working more hours than I used to.

      I’m in a tiny creative field where nobody makes any money (like, almost literally; hobbyists doing it for free far outnumber people making a living from it), so I’m pretty happy with those increases.

    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My actual base salary is ~175% of what my base salary was then – including my supplemental work hours, my expected annual income from my employer is 195% of my 2010 income.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Same career field, but in 2010 I was in Seattle and now I am in the Midwest, suburbs of a large city.

    14. Not Dave*

      384%. In 2010 I worked the line in a factory, ended the decade managing large construction projects. A very long, strange trip between those two points – sometimes feels like the last 10 years was actually 20.

    15. zaracat*

      Marginally increased, maybe 5%. It has mainly varied according to the number of hours/cases I do. I freelance in the private health care system in Australia and my billing is directly linked to government health care subsidies, which have been frozen since 2013.

    16. NeverNicky*

      +67%

      This is in the same job for the same charity. I had a major jump when the salaries were re-graded and I have had merit and inflationary rises since.

    17. Princesa Zelda*

      Mine has gone up nearly 50% — I started at federal minimum wage ($7.25) as a cashier at a fast food establishment, and my entire pay-band got a raise from our city council to $15 that went into effect on Monday.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        Ugh, /math/: It’s a bit more than doubled, so a little over 100%. I get percentage growth vs percentage of turned around.

    18. MommaCat*

      186% from 2010. My first job was massively underpaid. I had two ~50% jumps in two years after leaving that job which accounts for most of the increase, though I’ve gone down about 9% from my highest pay. The work is easier, though, so it seems fair to me.

      1. MommaCat*

        I work in the arts, but I pivoted to arts education. The massive pay increase tells you more about how poorly the arts pay than how well education pays.

    19. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      My current salary is 413% of my salary in 2010. That said, in 2010 I was working part time in call centres while studying and I’m now a nonprofit director…

    21. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      +50% – that is, looking at just hourly. I actually take home less each month because I’ve had two babies since then and cut down on my hours worked.

    23. Everdene*

      Increased by 65%. Although if you’d asked at most points during the decade it would’ve been a decrease. 2020 compared to 2010 includes moving to management, another degree and going full time. I’m hoping for another ~20% this year if the plan comes together.

    24. Discordia Angel Jones*

      + 100% but caveat that heavily with:

      In 2010 I was working retail.
      Now I’m a lawyer.
      The pay increase between my first job as a lawyer and retail in 2010 was 0%.
      The pay increase between my first job as a lawyer and my current job is +100% (i.e. double).
      I haven’t had a pay increase since joining this firm in 2017, not even COL (and tbh I’m still not paid enough to be comfortable living, don’t believe everything you read about lawyers being paid loads).

        1. Now in the Job*

          ^ Me, also a lawyer.
          Then again, me, looks at my attorney friends who make $60-70K/year, and my graphic designer friend who makes $90K/year.

        2. Amy Sly*

          When I worked at a comfort shoe mall boutique in 2010, I was $8/hr + commission, which averaged out to be about $22K/yr. (Though my mall was dying, so I could have gotten up to $25K or $28K if I had transferred to a busier location.) One of the lawyer jobs I got a second interview for at that time paid $34K. My only JD required job I’ve had in 10 years post graduation was $25/hr as a document review contractor, which came up to only $48K/yr between voluntary unpaid time off and furloughs.

          Some retail pays surprisingly well, and quite a lot of entry level law pays surprisingly poorly.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Lawyers aren’t all high paid folks. It varies by expertise and area widely. Lots of lawyers struggle financially even.

          1. Discordia Angel Jones*

            ^ This.

            I’m one of those financially struggling lawyers despite being better off than I was in 2010 / in retail.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              It’s because everyone thinks about the powerhouse defense attorneys out there that they see or the fact you can get a bill for $250-350 an hour for a consult. That’s not going into their pockets! Just like when you pay $125 an hour labor for a mechanic, your mechanic is not raking in that cash. It’s a business…overhead is in those prices…yadda yadda yadda.

        4. Discordia Angel Jones*

          Yep. My job as a middling experienced lawyer pays only double what I was making in retail.

          My first job as a baby lawyer paid the same as what I was making in retail (to be fair I was working one part time job in high end retail and one part time job in front of house at a theater where a Disney musical was on, which totaled the same as my baby lawyer job, so not supermarket retail).

          1. Kiwiii*

            Supermarket retail can pay okay, even. I know we hired leads (which could basically be anyone over 18, who could work full time, and had over a year of experience) and night shift employees for a couple dollars an hour more than I made at my first desk job.

        5. NotAnotherManager!*

          People tend grossly overestimate what the average lawyer makes. Only BigLaw associates make the $150K+ starting salaries, and they only represent 20-30% of law school grads, depending on the year. Looking at average salary is also misleading because of how skewed the relatively small percentage of upper-earners bring in. There are many more attorneys in government, public defender, nonprofit, corporate, and document reviewer positions that make a lot less.

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            BigLaw vs. other lawyers: I suspect the hourly pay difference is much less than the annual pay difference.

    25. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      260%. Three moves, three continents and three promotions. I had to fast track it because I moved back to the US in 2009 without a job and had to catch up.

    26. Mrs. Burt Wonderstone*

      278% since I got my first job straight out of college in 2011.
      That includes internal promotions, new jobs, new employers, and leaving state government.

    27. Llamalawyer*

      Good post that really has me thinking. Can’t remember my exact salary but I am guesstimating maybe 40%. Considering that I went from being a third year law firm associate to now in a few years into being a partner, this reaffirms my displeasure with the direction and management of my firm and fuels my desire to go out in my own this time next year.

    28. Rebecca*

      0.97, yes, less than 1%, but wow that tiny raise bump that wouldn’t buy me a coffee at the convenience store nearby was a huge morale booster. /s

      1. Gramarye*

        Pretty much the same at 1435% :D I was working less than a couple days a week as a teenage lifeguard in 2010.

    30. Jobbyjob*

      +840%!! That math is crazy- 2010 I was on a grad student stipend and now I am well into my career (currently middle management).

        1. Inopportune Moose*

          Ditto– from my work study average to my current gig, I’m up 593% (although that’s counting the raise I got yesterday, sooo…).

    33. Thalia*

      5050% However, I was a grad student and part-time waitress in 2010. It’s a mere 71% increase since 2014 when I started my career.

      1. Thalia*

        Actually 2010 may have been the year I had the grad stipend, so maybe just a 415% increase… funny how quickly we forget things that were vitally important at the time.

    34. N.J.*

      I e had a lot of income instability and thus is across multiple job changes.

      +31%, then -40%, then -20%, then +133%, then finally -23%, for a final change between original 2010 job and my job now of +13 %.

    35. girl friday*

      Is everyone adjusting for inflation?
      Your pay can seem to be increasing, but may actually be going backward if it’s not increasing enough…

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I found this about the CPI: “According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, today’s prices in 2020 are 17.96% higher than average prices since 2010.”

        1. Quiltrrr*

          At a 26% increase in the past 10 years, no wonder I don’t feel like I’ve really accomplished anything.

      2. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. There are a lot of factors. The price of groceries has gone up, for example. We have fewer kids at home but pay about the same for food.

    36. triplehiccup*

      +212% (a little more than tripled)
      I started in education in 2010, first as a classroom teacher, then into research and consulting, and now at a federal agency with a strong pay scale and a boss who successfully fought to get me more money from the start. Moving from a lower cost area with no state income tax to one with much higher cost of living and steep state taxes cuts into that jump.

    37. Here for randomness*

      About +30% income, but housing expense went up about 50% due to a location change.

    38. Hazelthyme*

      393%.

      After being unemployed for the last several months of 2009 and the first 6 weeks of 2010, I took a long-term temp assignment that paid $30,000 a year. This was about 1/2 what I’d made BGR (before the Great Recession), but hey — I’d been unemployed for 9 months and at least it was in my field. I added a side hustle to bring in some extra cash, which turned into full-time work once the $30k gig ended, and started me on the path that would eventually lead to my current job: a far more lucrative consulting position in the same industry, with a base salary of $140,000 plus generous bonuses.

    39. OtterB*

      I should be able to figure out the math, but it’s been a 3% COL raise each year. (True for everyone at my small nonprofit. ) One year there was an extra couple of percent boost and one year a flat rate additional amount as merit raises for me.

    40. Zip Silver*

      About 1100%
      That’s going from part time retail to graduating in 2011 and then working up to middle management

    42. What’s with Today, today?*

      About 20%. Notoriously low paying industry and I’m probably overpaid for my market, sadly.

    43. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      Mine has bounced all over the place mostly because of switching from international work (I made way too much) to domestic government in a slim government state (I made way to little) to non-profit (ditto). Now I am about where I was when working internationally given inflation, so just about where I should be given my experience, field, and location.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        ^ This may sound job hopping but it is the nature of the beast for primarily grant-funded work. This current job will last 5 years and then it will be on to something new.

    44. Llellayena*

      60% since 2012 (base income only, with bonuses I think it’s more but it’s too early for that math). Before that was grad school so negative income.

    46. Environmental Compliance*

      I went from gov’t intern to private sector management, so about 185% hourly rate wise, and 1140% annual salary wise. Helps to also go from working just summers to working full time.

    47. Teacher Lady*

      About 275%, although to be fair, my income in 2010 was my Peace Corps living allowance. I am up 200% from my salary at my first professional job after that (started in 2013), though!

    48. Faith*

      More than tripled if you look at base salary. Quadrupled if you consider variable and deferred compensation. But I’ve changed 3 jobs since 2010 and got a big bump each time. Plus, I went from being a fairly junior staff to a subject matter expert.

      2. Kimmybear*

        I thought about that. I’ve read that women tend to plateau career-wise around 40 yo and men closer to 50. So the salary tripling between 2000 and 2010 doesn’t really compare to the 40% increase between 2010 and 2020.

    51. Goldfinch*

      +625%

      Context: 2010 was the middle of a long stretch of unemployment. I was stringing together sparse freelance jobs, tutoring, and waitressing.

      I am now working a full-time permanent position in my field, though my salary is a bit below the median.

    52. Art3mis*

      I was unemployed at the start of 2010 and eventually took a “I seriously need to find something” job and it’s gone up 61% since that job. It’s down 4% since the job I left in 2008 though.

    53. Now in the Job*

      Hourly, around 500%.
      Salary, way more than that.

      In 2010, I was a student employee at my undergrad, limited to 15 hours a week in the semester and could do the full 40 during the off time. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn’t, but I also spent four and a half months abroad, so didn’t earn much then. The whole year, probably $8-9K. Now, before bonuses, I’m at 1289%. But now I’m a lawyer in-house at a large corporation, so….

      Versus last job, on base salary, it’s -3.85%, but the bonus was $150. This year I’m expecting more, but it remains to be seen how much more…

    54. Anon the mouse*

      +629% but I’m counting since I graduated college in 2013 and was working in retail part-time for $8.50/hr.. I’ve managed to make some big jumps and finally got to negotiate my salary this year at my most recent job change with the help of a not-worth-it counter offer from my old boss. My role now is a program analyst, working in a function that’s some odd derivative of public health admin.

    55. Zephy*

      I was in college in 2010, and the job I had at that time was a Federal Work-Study job in the campus cafeteria. It was very part-time, like <15 hours per week, with no benefits to speak of, other than "free meal during your shift." Now I have a full-time grown-up job with actual benefits like health insurance and PTO. My actual take-home pay has increased by an order of magnitude.

    56. TechWorker*

      488%
      That was a job between school and university, just over minimum wage, then I got a degree and a job in tech. I feel overpaid compared to some of my friends but then I’m also stressed most of the time sooo it has to have some benefits right…

      1. TechWorker*

        That should be 388% turns out I still can’t do maths despite that ol’ maths degree…

    57. Professional Merchandiser*

      0%. I changed merchandising companies because my former company closed their merchandising division, and I didn’t know that this company NEVER gives raises. However, they do give PTO, sick time, and bereavement pay so I guess that would count as an increase? Just don’t know how to calculate.

    58. Quinalla*

      +41% base salary as bonuses are variable, most of that when I changed jobs as I was underpaid, though I have been getting steady raises since then which is great as my last job I got a total of 2 raises when I was there for 13 years :/ I’ve learned a lot from that experience.

    59. WantonSeedStitch*

      92%, which I thought was a lot until I saw how many people’s salaries have more than tripled in this time! I work at a university. Since January 2010, I have had four promotions. Annual increases here tend to be small (4% is enormous), which I think is par for the course in the nonprofit world, even at large, well-funded nonprofits.

    61. HR Lady*

      206% increase (I just did the maths!), but I’ve gone from an entry-level generic admin job in a low-paying industry (I was barely on over UK minimum wage) in a poor part of the country to a skilled professional role in a high-paying industry in London which generally has significantly higher paying salaries and a significantly higher cost of living.

      The biggest jumps have been in the last three years through changing jobs and one role paying me extra to retain me (and when after 6 months I realised I was still as miserable as sin I had a better jumping-off base to get my current role).

      I also get benefits now, including private healthcare, a bonus, a decent pension and a car allowance, none of which were even slightly likely in the 2010 job.

      Main lifestyle changes are that I haven’t been in my overdraft in a few years because I actually have savings now, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for my student loans (n.b in the UK these are automatically deducted from your salary depending on how much you get paid – I was skimming the interest for a long while) and my husband and I are planning on buying property in the next three years, we only haven’t bought yet as we’re both reluctant to leave London. I also treat myself to name-brand baked beans now ;)

      1. Beachlover*

        Approx 100% give or take. but now I work from home, where as before I was commuting, so also save on gas plus wear & tear on my car.

    62. IT Guy*

      Same company from 2010 t0 2020 – 381% increase. Went from part-time warehouse worker to senior director.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I should note that in 2010 I was a contractor with no PTO or benefits, and I’m making *almost* 100% more than I was in 2007, so I’m not complaining.

    64. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      635% if you incorporate working hours as well as hourly pay. I went from minimum wage at 20 hours a week to 40 hours a week at a bit over triple minimum.

    65. Tired of it all*

      Hiring several new team members that make significantly more than me and promising pay raises and not following through.

    66. athiker10*

      Starting from 2011 when I started professional work, (I didn’t work a lot in 2010, hiked the Appalachian Trail for 5.5 months and did temp jobs) 233%. Quite a bit of that is through a few promotions in my current role.

    68. GeorgiaB*

      205%, but I was a post-doc at the beginning of 2010 and now I work in an unrelated industry.

    69. unapologetic*

      480%. in 2010 i was working in call centres after finishing university, now i’m a senior web developer.

    70. Council'd*

      About +75%, but I was in a pretty well-paid for what it was but stagnant role for a good chunk of it. Nearly all of that 75% was an industry move and some job hopping in the last 4 years.

    71. MissDisplaced*

      + 38%
      It’s actually more than that, considering I was working part-time in 2010 and going to grad school.
      But the increase reflects the pay between the two full-time jobs and the difference between a bachelors degree versus a masters degree over 10 years time. We’ll see if that holds going forward.

    73. BlueWolf*

      Counting from when I actually started working full-time post college (2014) about 171%. But that’s going from an entry level position at a small business to a role at a much larger business followed by three promotions.

    74. RobotWithHumanHair*

      33% decrease. Was in a different job back in 2010, had been there for 11 years at that point. Been in my current job for close to 3 years now, last raise was over 2 years ago (at the end of my probationary period).

    75. Overeducated*

      400%, but I was on a grad student stipend in 2010, I still havent cracked six figures. I now spend almost as much as I made in grad school on day care for one kid, and when my infant starts in March, that second “tuition” alone will cost 12% more than I made in 2010.

    76. Bootstrap Paradox*

      What a great question to put the decade in perspective!

      My pay has increased 89% in the last decade, tho 55% of that has been within the last 6 years in my current niche. Not too bad, I think.

    77. TooTiredToThink*

      I don’t remember what my wage was in 2010, but I do remember what it was in 2008 (when I started my current career) and its been an +120% increase since then BUT my rent has gone up 220% since then so I often feel like my spending power (and general comfort level) was much higher from about 2009-2013 (I was in an industry that was unaffected by the recession).

    79. JobHunter*

      15% decrease on the straight wage. My benefits then were significantly better, but I’m not sure how to put a clear value on that.

      I had grad school and a few jobs between then and now, so my income has jumped around a bit.

    81. Elenna*

      Infinity% as I was 13 years old and not working at the start of 2010, but I don’t think that’s really the kind of answer you were looking for… :)

      1. Elenna*

        Well, I guess if you count my allowance as salary then… some very large number as my allowance was $13/month and I’m now in a full-time office job. :P

    83. amianai*

      I was a student in 2010, so my hourly rate now vs. then is roughly +431%. Higher education really can pay off.

    84. AJK*

      37%. I was working full time and going to school part-time in 2010, I finished school in 2012 and now have to pay student loans out of that difference. I was making about 10% more at my first job after graduating than I am now, but the commute costs were much higher. I also went from f0r-profit to non-profit.
      I’m lucky enough to live in a fairly low cost of living area, and my mortgage is still exactly what it was in 2010. I could make much more if I commuted to or moved to the much larger city about an hour or so south of here, but costs would go up accordingly. My current job is within walking distance of my house, and we do get some nice PTO and other perks to make up for the lower non-profit pay so I’d say I have it much better in general than I did in 2010. Back then I was juggling FT work in a somewhat toxic office and driving two hours RT to the Larger City suburbs every evening for classes to get into the field I wanted. I definitely have more options now than I did then.

    85. Seifer*

      +1000% which looks insane but I was 17 in 2010 and working a summer job only. I made decent money but since it was at the family business, it was… dysfunctional. I’m much better off now, and not just because of the money!

    86. Former Usher*

      Salary is up 18.5%. Bonus percentage is lower at current job. Including the targeted bonus at both jobs, my total cash compensation is only up 10.8%. Feels like a lost decade. Might be time to look for something else (for multiple reasons).

    89. Mistress of None*

      +311%
      In 2010 I started part-time in internet marketing working 30 hr/week. I’m still at the same company (hopefully not for long!), and my base is +62% from 2010. But between commission and incentives and the adjunct teaching I do at the university, my total compensation is up 311%. This is crazy to see.

    91. cncx*

      mine has stayed exactly the same. it went up for about five years by about 20 percent due to a relatively consistent bonus, but then that employer cut the bonus in a very grey legal way and I’m back at 2010. Late capitalism.

    93. Working for yarn*

      Roughly 600% … was working retail/temp because I couldn’t find a job in my field where I was/am living … now I’m using my experience and working in the public sector. Not in love with my job, but finding happiness where I can.

    94. The Beagle Has Landed*

      About 125%. From entry level to a promotion and regular merit and COLA raises in a municipal government.

    95. Junimo the Hutt*

      451%

      Unemployment through all of 2010 was demoralizing, but it did inspire me to go back to school and learn a few programs that put me on a new career path.

    96. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      30%+

      Same employer, but no COLA ever, and never a raise higher than 3% until my most recent one that I fought for with AAM’s great tips (and hard data!) that was ~9%.

    98. Heat's Kitchen*

      400% – 2010 was when I graduated college and I was severely underpaid at my first two jobs out of college.

    99. Parenthetically*

      Not me, but my husband: -60%, going from a salaried, degree-requiring specialist government position to a blue-collar hourly position. It’s not as bad as it looks on paper, because we live in a much much lower COL area than before, but we also have two kids now!

    100. afiendishthingy*

      +310%, although I also now have more debt and my rent has increased by 108% and so have some other expenses. but still, better off now. (at the beginning of 2010 I had a call center job in a low-paying, low COL region and now I have a job that requires a masters degree and an in-demand certification in a considerably higher COL region)

    102. Lo Squared*

      1100% since 2010 (student working a temp job)
      212% since finishing my grad degree in 2012 (moved from a high COL area that was notoriously underpaid to an even higher COL area that was appropriately compensated in a profession that has grown exponentially in demand since 2012)

    103. Beachlover*

      I accidentally posted this on another’s comment.

      Approx 100% give or take. but now I work from home, where as before I was commuting, so also save on gas plus wear & tear on my car.

    104. Nynaeve*

      +2,870%

      From grad school with part-time tutoring/student loans to making that sweet, sweet librarian money. It would actually probably be more if you counted the money I made this year (IDK how much since I haven’t gotten my tax forms yet), but less if you counted my student loans as “income” (but I figure if the IRS doesn’t, I’m not going to).

      Do I win?

    105. AnotherAlison*

      Mine is a lot more linear than most. I was 10 years into my professional career, and the last 10 years have been about 178% while the first ten were about 170%. It works out to making about 3x what I started at 20 years ago, but engineering new grad salaries are pretty decent.

    106. De Minimis*

      If I go from beginning of 2010, my salary has gone up a lot, only because I was on unemployment from late 2009 to early 2011.

      But if I go back to the job I had prior to the Great Recession [laid off in mid-2009,] my salary has only gone up around 16%. Left private sector and moved into government, and then non-profit. Feel fortunate that my salary has gone up at all.

    108. Emily*

      + 64 %

      Still rather low, though. Was WAY underpaid then, but am still underpaid now (should be making ~ 30 % more, but that’s just an estimate).

      On the other hand, I’m not planning to stay in this job more than about 2-3 years longer.

    109. I'm that person*

      +165% (plus better benefits and annual stock grants) got laid off at the end of 2010, changed industries, got really lucky at the end of 2011 when I got recruited for a job that I would never have applied for, and then worked hard to keep that job. Even accounting for inflation I am making far more than I ever thought that I would make.

    110. A Person*

      333% – entry level job to low level director. Included 4 job searches / moves, most of them were climbing up the ladder.

      1. A Person*

        Oh and salaries in my field have also exploded this decade, so even at the entry levels I’d say things are up 50-60%.

    112. Miranda Wiggelsworth*

      ~75%, but that doesn’t show a much larger increase in buying power, as I moved from a high cost of living area to a lower cost of living area.

    113. Orange You Glad*

      ~53% I had just started my career mid-2009 and recession pay has been hard to bounce back from

    114. Jackers*

      In last 10 years, 208%. 225 if you factor in bonus potentials. And for funzies, 440% over past 20 years.

    115. Anona*

      +83% (from ~$32k to ~$59k).

      Full disclosure, in 2008 I had been making $39k, so if you compare it to that, it’s a 51% increase.

    116. Elitist Semicolon*

      +20%, but that’s only because I switched from a position with a 9-month workload/contract to a 12-month position.

    117. Glen*

      I was a stay at home parent at the beginning of 2010, because my wife made significantly more than me in less hours (nurse) and every dollar I earned would have been in the next tax bracket. With the cost of daycare and a second car I would have been paying about $300 a month to work, because twins…
      I did some gig stuff that added up to about $3000 a year, so I’m making thousands of percent more income now than I did then.
      I wouldn’t have traded the time I had with my daughters for the money I’m making now.

    118. lemon*

      About 205%, but mostly because I switched fields from customer service to website-related things.

    119. Indy Dem*

      What a great question. For me, I’m at 166% since 2010, but that’s not the whole story as I was at a non-profit, with no cost of living raises except once in 11 years. New job has better salary, better benefits (including a 401K contribution of up to 9% of salary – old job gave none), and a much better work environment. So it feels more like 1660%!

    120. LizIndeed*

      501%

      I was in college making minimum wage (around $8.50 which I know is high for the U.S. at the time) at a part time boutique. Aaaaand I realized I just calculated that salary based on full time hours, which I definitely didn’t work. I imagine in that case my increase might be more in the thousands. O_o Wow I didn’t think about this until now… crazy!

    121. Red5*

      ~67% increase since the beginning of 2010. Thanks for this question; it was fun to do the math and see how far it’s come.

    122. Eyes Wide Shut*

      I’ve been with the same company for 10 years, though my role has evolved over time and it wasn’t a straight trajectory. But, currently, I make 40% more than I did in 2010.

      1. LizzE*

        I forgot to add context: I was making an hourly wage of $17/hour, working 20 hours a week, in 2010.

    125. nonprofit director*

      My salary is exactly the same. I lost my consulting job in early 2011. I was not able to get back into the same field and ended up at a non-profit organization, where it took a few years to progress in terms of responsibility and pay. Benefits at the non-profit organization are much better, though, including a higher 401k match as well as a generous contribution to a health savings account, so total my compensation package is 13% higher.

    129. corporate engineering layoff woo*

      Technically, 0%. Didn’t work in 2010 (still in school) and haven’t found a new position for 2020, yet. So 0->0 is more zero.

    130. DrRat*

      About 150%. I changed careers and initially took a huge pay cut but have made up for it the past few years. However, I also went from exempt to non exempt, so say hello to paid overtime and goodbye to excessive work hours with no extra pay. Overtime? Sure! Hand me that time and a half! However, pay doesn’t tell the whole story as I also now work full time remote so have a lot less in the way of expenses (and stress). I also get crazy PTO now. Job in 2010 was 15 paid days off and I think 6 holidays; current job is 24 days off and 8 holidays.

    131. Nonny*

      1111% I was just doing part time work in college at the time, now I have full time work.

      Honestly moving from my job last year to this one was a huge portion of that (salary went up almost 200%).

    132. apple*

      522%. I went from a nursing assistant in a low cost of living part of the country to Nurse Manager in a major metro in a high cost of living state. In the next 10 years, I don’t expect that rate of increase though! XD

    133. OccassionallyEngineer*

      I was a student in 2010, but from when I started my first real job in 2012 I have gone up ~ 68% on base salary if you include expected bonuses then I am up about 92%. This is over the course of 3 provinces and moving from an extremely rural area to downtown Toronto. I am in mining so I was living in the middle of nowhere and making decent $ for a brand new grad and now live in one of the highest COL areas in Canada but I have a decent salary to make up for it. I also managed to negotiate a 20% for myself about 3 months ago so that was huge morale booster.

    134. Stornry*

      about 10%. But then, I’m in the same government position/title/level I’ve had since 2000 (though in a different department). I was at the top of the pay scale by 2010 just as I am now. I have no complaints; I’ve been able to buy a house on my own as well as a newer car, so I’m good. And I will happily retire in a couple of years with a not large but comfortable pension.

    135. LQ*

      This is a really interesting question.
      Mine is up 43% (soon to be 48%). I took a big hit in 2011 when I was laid off and took a nearly 40% pay cut. It was a few years to claw my way back to level, and I’ve been ticking up since then at the same place. I’ve moved from individual contributor to senior manager in that time.

    136. NaoNao*

      240%. In early 2010 I had my BA but had just left my MA work (and would never return, as it turns out) for a full time job making 9$ hour plus commission. That’s 18k a year—before taxes. My rent was $450 a month and I would up leaving half way through 2010 to live with mom and help her clean out and update a previously child-occupied bedroom; and then found a job paying double that overseas, which lead to my career. I got really, really lucky in 2010 even though in January it didn’t feel like it!

    137. Chaordic One*

      +65%
      Now I’m back to where I was before the Great Recession. I sort of feel like the 2010s were a lost decade for me.

    138. Lilysparrow*

      Personally, infinity percent as I was SAHM at the time.
      Household income has changed around a lot, as we both went through job changes FT, PT, freelance.
      Overall we’re sitting now at 80% up from the beginning of 2011, which is the closest I can find handy. It’s been a bit higher and a bit lower than that in the meantime.

    139. Jemima Bond*

      Goodness me! You all seem to be doing so well! I went back and did the maths and prepare to be dazzled, folks.
      Context: I am a uk civil servant (government worker).
      Including the pay rise resulting from one promotion about a year ago, my pay now is about 21% higher than it was ten years ago. Before the promotion, so over the preceding 9 years, the uplift was 6%. Which is probably behind inflation! I checked year on year and my pay rose by 0% for two years and 1% or less for about five. I did a spreadsheet! I’m going on annual gross salary so not accounting for increased pension contributions. Also government work so no bonuses or monetary benefits beyond annual/sick leave.
      Lest you should all think I’m rubbish: in govt (certainly U.K.) you can’t negotiate a pay rise yourself within the role, you just get what everyone in your department gets (or doesn’t!) for the year. Which must be negotiated with the government, who are voted in by the people, who don’t see why civil servants should be paid decent money out of their taxes (that’s also why my pension contributions have gone up) But I assure you that what I do is not some superfluous bureaucracy but something that every one of you I hope would deem to be extremely important.

      Fortunately for society I enjoy my job and while I’ll never be rich, I’m ok, and I’ll always be a superhero!

    142. SoCal Kate*

      Down 4.6% if I just look at hourly rate, but my take home pay is down 18% per year because I work 36 hours a week instead of 40.

      I was hit really hard by the recession, and was unemployed for years.

  4. Anon4this*

    What has a workplace done that has made you rethink whether you wish to remain with them; either for the long haul or short term?

    Some of the reorganization ideas that are being floated make me leery about how successful we’re going to be.

    1. Bilateralrope*

      I work as a security guard at a clients site. All guards have to go through a background check done by the client before being allowed on this site. We dont get told anything about the check beyond if someone passed or failed.

      Several months ago, the client suddenly kicked out one of the guards. I’ve been doing 60 hour weeks since then because all the replacements my employer puts forward are failing the background check.

      Until that happens, I’m stuck on this site. My career development is stalled. Unless I get a job elsewhere.

      I’m looking forward to the face of my supervisor when I give notice.

    3. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

      Ever changing deadlines. Everything is always due yesterday which is starting to burn out new hires

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I have mentioned that I am about to be transferred to a new department, which has nothing to do with my current work. I get on ok with the soon to be new boss, but only time will tell if things work out ok.

        Also, my company is paying for training for me, so if I should leave, then I will have to reimburse them. I am making sure I have the cash to be on the safe side.

        1. Sam Buca*

          The way I read this, you’re being transferred (not that you applied for the new gig), and they want you to potentially repay them for the training they are making you take? That seems out of whack.

          1. Chocolate Teapot*

            Not quite. I am being moved from my current team into another one. I will still be doing my same role, but with a new boss who has no idea about it, and co-workers who don’t do anything related to my work.

            If everything goes horribly wrong and I need to get a new job, then I would have to reimburse the company for the training. It was my idea to take the training as it would be beneficial to the work I do, and it took a bit of toing and froing to get said training approved and paid for.

            1. Cats and Dogs*

              You should stipulate a short time line in which you’d have to pay them back. For example after a year would be ridiculous

      2. akiwiinlondon*

        +1
        an old job used to tout the benefit of a lack of layers to senior management – if the company is big enough this isn’t a good thing, it means there is a lack of opportunity for advancement unless there is high turnover in senior roles (which would be another problem).

        It can be good in a small company if you do actually get face time with those senior leaders and create new opportunities for your development – but a big company that’s flat, those people are too busy for you.

    5. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Where ideas are implemented, but not given time to take root before deciding they were a success or failure.
      Recent (anecdotal, coz it was in a different building to me) example – Manager implemented a project to reduce ticket volume by changing the triage process. Manager told everyone up and down the chain (all the way to CEO) that due to the cyclical nature of some tickets, progress (or otherwise) could only be shown after six months. December was month 6. Manager had been let go in October because “it doesn’t look like it’s working”

      (note – this is probably the seventh? such project start and fallout I’ve witnessed in the last five or six years. My department keeps getting overlooked when it comes to “improvement projects” so I’ve been unaffected so far. As long as the company is financially stable, so is my job, so I’m not actively looking. Yet.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Keep your resume up to date just in case. Your C-level sounds impulsive, and that’s rarely good for business.

    6. Anony Shark*

      Lack of appreciation and overly harsh or vague criticisms. I work hard and it’s incredibly disheartening when my good results are totally ignored….but if I make a mistake the proverbial hits the fan.

      Now I make a point of saying thank you for specific things to my direct reports. It seems like a small thing but I believe it makes a huge difference to morale.

    7. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I was part time and couldn’t complete my work in the time, so asked to add a day a week to match capacity-demand to -supply. I was firmly told the c-suite had rejected my request as having no business case. I realised I had been mom-tracked, and that realisation was made concrete by their handling of my hospitalisation for miscarriage very shortly afterwards.

      I had been warned six years before that they didn’t support mothers at all well, but I hadn’t believed it. I should have been more observant. They did it to *everyone*.

    8. Cleopatra*

      – Lack of work to do (the proof is that I have been surfing on AAM for an hour and a half). I don’t even know why they opened my current position a year ago (!)
      – Company’s culture. I never felt at home here. At the beginning, I thought it was just the transition. But today I know that it is NOT the transition, and that the culture here is not a fit for me
      – Sneaky colleagues (and excrutiatingly boring). This alone would not have pushed me to seek other opportunities, should the first two points above not happen
      – Lack of communication with management and coworkers
      – I was told certain things in the job interview last year (such as possibilities to work from aborad etc.), which, of course, I discovered to be untrue

      I started looking for a new job a month ago, and I found one :) I will be resigning by mid January.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Good for you! Congratulations! I too left a job last year after 17 long, excruciating months of having very little to do on a regular basis – I have no earthly clue why they hired me, but it was a waste of time for all of us. I landed somewhere much better in May of ‘19, and I actually have just the right amount of work to do most days – a far cry from any of my previous roles (most of my positions, I was overworked and underpaid).

      2. Laney Boggs*

        This!! I’m so bored. I think if they implemented any *smart* changes they could halve my department. Training was nonexistent.
        I’m 6 months here this month, and over a year with the company, so I’m starting a job search soon.

    9. Also anoning*

      Made me rethink in a good way.

      When I had a non-work related injury that meant I couldn’t work for two months, they gave me 100% paid medical leave, even though I did not have that as a benefit.

      That’s how you get a loyal employee.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        That’s awesome. I wouldn’t leave a company like that unless they were about to go bankrupt or were engaging in illegal activities.

    10. Lena Clare*

      High staff turnover, limit pay raises (if any), ridiculous “we are family” and “you’re expected to volunteer extra hours” culture, and refusal to fire poor performers or bullies.

    11. AL (the other one)*

      That sounds familiar, my company is making some weird changes at the moment.
      We’re currently is the phase of extreme cost cutting in order to fund new tech changes but it has gone to such an extreme that it’s really having a lot of negative impact both physically (we’re joking about whether there’ll be toilet rolls next week) and mentally (fear of failure stifling new growth opportunity).

      Feels like it’s gone too far this time round…

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Headcount reduction by attrition not by logic, so overwhelmed departments get worse. Especially when this is combined with low raises for staff and high bonuses for executives.
      Eliminated long-standing work from home policies instead of defining what it means to do it right & managing the few groups & individuals who were abusing it.
      Gung-ho application of new management trends to a point that it interferes with actual deliverables…. then dropped quietly, wait 6 months, repeat. And again.
      Cutting headcount in one place, assigning the work to another place that ALSO got cut, but still holding them to turnaround times for their lower workload & higher staffing level. Giving the group no authority to rearrange deliverables or turn down projects, and no acceptance of errors & quality reduction due to the above.
      Changing benefits with contradictory rollout info and the published help desk hasn’t been told yet that anything is changing.

    13. girl friday*

      The company I recently left had a president ousted, still hasn’t got a new one, rumors flying that they’ll be in the red by next year, rumors flying that they have to borrow to make payroll, departmental budgets being cut, rumors they’re being taken over by a competitor, a canceled major construction project (that no one was allowed to talk about), a very potentially disruptive major construction project that is allegedly still happening but has been mysteriously held up for months, and they also can’t seem to keep anyone on as janitors.

      After 2 years of this with no lights at the end of the tunnel, I couldn’t take it any more.

    14. Internal combustion llamas and accessories*

      We were acquired by another larger (although not that much larger) company in a similar but not quite the same field. Since the teapot and llama thing has been done to death, let’s say the new company produces jet engines and our company produces motorcycle and lawnmower engines. Similar concept, internal combustion engines, but the supply chains are different, the expertise is different, the staffing levels are different, etc.

      Since the acquisition, the jet engine company has gotten rid of almost all the senior leadership from our small engine division and tried to integrate us fully into the company, but the new company doesn’t really have anybody who knows how to operate the small engine department, and it’s been hectic. There’s been lots of promotion opportunity for lots of people, but it’s been a couple of years and still isn’t smooth.

      I’ve ridden it out so far, but something more stable would be nice.

      Not to mention, my new boss gets salty if I don’t check email during PTO and on weekends (and not critical items, just run of the mill communication), and doesn’t like if we use all 4 weeks of our PTO, while my old boss had a pretty healthy respect for work/life balance and encouraged everybody to use all their vacation. I used to only take 2-3 weeks of PTO, but now I make sure to use every single hour of it.

    15. CL Cox*

      I have a new boss who is a micromanager. I would probably be fine with it, but they have too many balls in the air and things are getting dropped. They used to be in the same role at a different location, but it’s been several years since then and things (especially financials) are handled very differently now. It’s falling on me to try to explain to them why something they want to do isn’t allowed any more. And then they want me to verify that information with someone else. I also have to run any site-wide communications by them before sending out, and they are not great about responding to emails, so things aren’t going out that staff needs to know about (pre-holiday deadlines, new reibursement rules, etc.) It’s taking several extra steps to get my job done. I have discovered I much prefer to work for someone who lets me handle all the administrative stuff and trusts me to inform them when they need to know something. I’ve been doing this work for 35+ years now, and I’m good at it, I really want to be respected for my knowledge and skills.

    16. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      A toxic manager and a power structure that won’t deal with it, adding more and more work while taking away resources and not adding to salary or authority, and a better job falling in my lap.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Odd, but I can’t think of too many places where I wished I had stayed because of the changes in the place. I think that is because the changes were too little, too late? Not sure.

      I do know that of the places I stayed at for long periods of time, the changes over that approximate 10 years were such that my job changed radically. It was no where near what it was when I first started the job. I think what helped me out the door was that it just plain took too long to make changes, even urgently needed changes.

      At my current job, it’s just me and my boss. She allows me lots of space for implementing my own ideas. We talk it over, of course, and she makes the final tweaks before the idea goes live. So my problem here is just having the time to get the change up and running.

    18. The Rat-Catcher*

      My department is also undergoing a reorg…maybe. The reorg will impact almost everything about my job and our director just left, meaning the conversation might have to start all over again. I’m definitely looking at other options more than ever.

    19. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      – Cut competitive benefits that attracted me in the first place
      – Constantly reorganized my group (6 or 7 times in 4 years)
      – Put pressure on us to find more work without helping us do so
      – Lost star players who would have been amazing mentors

      1. Automated*

        Yes to number 1. That happened to me at one org. I took a 5% pay cut because the “total compensation” package was great. Three of the amazing benefits that attracted me was an onsite massage therapist, a free personal trainer, and a staff of nutritionist for employees and their families.

        That all got cut the first week I started.

        Even then i probably would have stayed, but they negotiated my salary down 5% citing these benefits and you know they knew they were cutting them.

        I saw that as operating in bad faith and left.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I don’t blame you – they did, and I can only imagine what other shady stuff they would have also tried to pull on you if you hadn’t left.

    20. Anon for this comment*

      I really like 95% of the large firm of people I work with, so if it was just the team it would be really great and if some of these folks were in management it would be better too. Things they have done that have de-motivated me though are favouritism, vague guidance ‘why can’t you just do this?’ paired with ‘that is not how we do things’ and ‘just figure it out’ paired with ‘we don’t say that or do that or use that tool’ that is changed literally in a month, or as I discovered…we do in fact use that tool and now we do that thing. And turnover that is difficult to manage, as in one role in less than 2 years there have been 4 people in the role – all of whom left after short 3-6 month periods because of the chaotic direction. Remember the post on the daily therapy – it’s not like that, but there is an unwritten rule that if you don’t state, when asked, that you are happy and positive…you are ‘clearly a problem.’ Sorry, but I am glad it is Friday as I need a couple of days off.

    22. hbc*

      A general rewarding of assertive and confident people over those who were right. Lots of disfunction before that, but the tipping point was realizing that people who were confidant and wrong (“We purchased what we were supposed to, the internal sales team didn’t send it out”) were getting promoted while the people who were nuanced and thoughtful (“Our procedure is to ship those when they arrive, but let me check what happened with that order”) were getting pushed down or aside.

      There were really good intentions at the top level, but those good intentions led them to believe things they shouldn’t have believed. Couldn’t get out of there fast enough as the blame started flying.

    23. WineNot*

      Everyone at my job complains. All the time. When I ask how someone’s doing in the morning, multiple people say anything from “Well, I’m here aren’t I?” to “At least I’m not 6 feet under…yet”. The people I work with all live to work and I just can’t stand the negative mentality around the office. They are all very nice but I don’t want to be sitting here in 30 years with 10 vacation days (another thing that tells me I’m in this short term) complaining about how terrible life is.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Do you work at my last job? Seriously – my boss and her right hand used to do this, and complain about their actual assignments, all day long. It was highly annoying especially since I came from a much higher-stress, faster paced environment prior to that one, and I couldn’t understand why the hell they were always working so late and so hard to do very simple stuff.

    24. Professional Merchandiser*

      Same company. I ended the year with 22 hours PTO on the books, and it’s…gone. They have always had a policy of use it or lose it, but I was assured by my supervisor that the “unwritten” policy was that you could carry over 40 hours, but that you wouldn’t accrue any more while it was in there. I had checked with her in November to see if I needed to burn this time and she told me this. When I was part-time and not getting holiday pay I would save some of my PTO for holidays, but I was reinstated to full-time in October so didn’t need to use it for that.
      I don’t blame her, she had checked with HR and that’s what she was told. But if they don’t make this whole, I may leave. Lesson learned: don’t trust unwritten policies.

      1. Not a cat*

        This! I was with a company that was looking for PE. So, they zero’d out all the PTO because it made the books look better. (I had 30 days) I am in Cali and this is illegal (considered earned income). When I complained, I was told that “accounting was tracking it…” A month later, when I left, I was not paid for my PTO (also illegal in California).

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Looking for PE = Trying to reduce their stock price/earnings ratio?

          Or something else?

        2. DrRat*

          I hope you are fighting this. In CA, they will be ordered to pay you for that PTO – and that’s 6 weeks salary!

      2. WineNot*

        Ugh that is so frustrating! With something as precious as vacation days, I’m sure you would have planned things differently had you known it wasn’t going to happen.

      3. Diahann Carroll*

        I’m watching my vacation bank at my new job very closely since this is my fear (even though our rollover policy is actually written) – I will be deeply upset to lose my remaining five days from 2019 (though I’m pretty sure my manager would just let me take them anyway since the days would be paid out whether I’m working or out on leave).

    25. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Reorganizing the company structure annually.

      It’s good to shake things up every now and then and rethink structures, but the annual shuffling of managers, departments, reporting chains, and clustering wound up creating a lot of confusion and messing up opportunities for advancement.

    26. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      I worked as an admin assistant at a financial firm, which mainly did retirement planning. A big philosophy there was that we were helping families achieve financial goals. Cool, whatever.

      We were asked to give our boss a family picture ahead of our team retreat. I’m single with no children so I submitted a picture of me, my parents, siblings and nieces/nephews and forgot about it.

      At the retreat, there was a slideshow of everyone’s pics and afterwards my boss said, “I showed you this altogether so you would remember why you come to work everyday.” I was the only single, childless team member and obviously what Boss said didn’t apply to me. I totally felt Other after that.

      1. StellaBella*

        Oooof, I am so sorry. That is terrible. As a child-free person who is also single, this would hurt. Big hugs of you want them.

    27. Leela*

      I haven’t read the comments so sorry if this is a repeat, but policies handed down that really harm your team with no right to talk it over or push back against it, from people who don’t understand the impact of the decisions they’re making.

      Having what I’m being told I have to do and what I’m being incentivized to do be massively out of sync.

    28. Amber Rose*

      On the flip side, a bunch of recent reorg at my company has made me reconsider wanting to leave. They fired a bunch of useless management types and are setting financial goals to keep us afloat if we hit rough times.

      Previously, the handling of a scandal involving a large amount of money had me considering fleeing for the hills, and prior to that, being lectured for wanting to use my sick days to cover a surgery. :/

      1. Dancing Otter*

        What, you’re supposed to take your laptop into the operating room with you?
        Trust me, the work I tried to do while on hydrocodone after surgery was /not/ well done. Retrograde motion, if anything.

    29. DiscoUkraine!*

      I currently work in healthcare. My workplace recently changed HR Solution vendors (apparently the Three Letter vendor that also now does our payroll was cheaper) and terminated our health insurance (named after a color) in favor of two mediocre choices – one being a “Klosed system” and another one that actually lets you keep going to your existing providers, but pay more to do so.

      All this to say – the last time I saw this exact scenario go down, I worked in subprime mortgage. The C level went on and on about how well the company was doing and how much money they’d made with their “strategic cost-saving moves”.

      The mass layoffs started about 8 months later, the same day all the copiers and fax machines were repo’d.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Three Letter Payroll Vendor is the absolute WORST. The last place I worked that used them, about three times a year, everyone’s paychecks would be Mysteriously Wrong (in the company’s favor, of course) so you had to watch them like a hawk or you’d just be out hundreds of dollars.

    30. Cap. Marvel*

      I’m seriously considering leaving once we move buildings. Our CEO wants us to transition from almost everyone having a private office to an open concept space to encourage “more employee interaction.” I’m not completely convinced that will work (given the culture we have now) and honestly not excited about having even less privacy than I do now.
      But I like my team well enough so maybe I’ll see if I can live with it.

      1. corporate engineering layoff woo*

        The metric said it works! Look at all this interaction*!

        *the interaction is naturally, physically unavoidable and is certainly hurting productivity >.>

    31. Llama Wrangler*

      This just happened, so I’m waiting to see how it all shakes out, but I helped write a grant for our understaffed team for 50% of a position, and when we got the grant, the big boss decided instead to use the money to fund a current position (reallocating the money that was currently funding the position to other teams) and ask current employees to take on the new projects.

      Big boss doesn’t seem to think this is worthy of comment but I’m not willing to work long term at a place that (a) chronically under-staffs my area of work and (b) doesn’t think anything of this kind of funding bait and switch.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        I used to do accounting for Grants & Contracts. That may violate the terms of the grant. I know you helped write the grant proposal, but have you read the fine print of the final version?

      2. Red Fraggle*

        Uhhhh, yeah, no, that does not bode well. In my experience, grants that cover salary funding at all generally have pretty clear language about that money supporting a NEW hire or a CURRENT position.

        Your only hope is that this grant somehow magically doesn’t require a final report documenting how the money was spent. If there needs to be a report, then the next thing big boss is going to do is falsify documents and/or the grant organization is going to come after y’all hard. (And I suspect big boss will throw underlings under the nearest convenient bus.) I hope you escape!

    32. Anon For This*

      My department had one floor of single offices out of a 3 or 4 floor building. Everyone had a master key to the floor so they could get into their office, the copy room, the room the printer was in, the conference room, the classroom, the break room, etc. It also meant you could go into someone else’s office, but why would you? No one reported that this ever happened.

      I started with 2 others. The new department head didn’t like the idea of the master key, so he wouldn’t let us new people have them, but he didn’t get rid of them either. So I could open my office but couldn’t get in to any of the other rooms I needed to do my job. There were students working on the floor who had the key, but the new professors didn’t! I had to make a big stink to get multiple keys, but even then he wouldn’t give me all the ones I needed.

      This was just the beginning of the ridiculous stuff by this guy. Another example: I had a PhD class that met once a week and had 3 students. One had a long commute, so she asked if we could move the class to another day. The 2nd student said that was better for her too. It was also better for me, since I had a long late night class and then this class early the next morning, but I don’t think I told them that. The 3rd student said he didn’t care, and I asked him alone in case he was uncomfortable saying he didn’t want to. The department chair wouldn’t let me move it. He said the 3rd student didn’t want to, but I later found out that was a lie.

      1. Anon For This*

        To clarify: People did sometimes go into each other’s offices, with permission, to drop something off or pick something up. But nobody ever reported anything bad happening.

    33. Arjay*

      Our company announced it was going to recognize MLK day as a company holiday. Then a very large department told its staff that they couldn’t have the holiday off due to workload. There is some validity to this as the workload doesn’t decrease the way it does for, say, Memorial Day, but the optics and the message are just so bad. If we truly value inclusion and diversity, we should put our money where our mouth is.

      1. LizzE*

        Yeah, this is unfortunately common where I work. Our current CEO started 2 years ago and advocated a new policy to close the office during winter break — we “closed” December 23-January 1 this past holiday season. But, the problem is that finance, IT, administration (particularly the facilities manager and the receptionist) and members of our fundraising team can’t take off during this time because our company is in philanthropic services, and donors are notorious for feeling charitable the last quarter of the year (especially Christmas and New Year’s). So basically, 1/3 of staff have to come in during even though the office is declared “closed” for business.

    34. Moth*

      At a company-wide meeting about a year ago, the CEO stood on stage and said how proud he was of the company that the strategic plan we had set the quarter before was still the current strategic plan. Not realistic proud that changes were being made to the culture of impulsivity, but sincerely proud that three months of not changing direction was a big accomplishment, right?! Needless to say, a year out, none of that strategic plan exists anymore. I’ve tried to write a 5-year plan for the team I lead and I always get a lot of support from management on doing that, but zero support on executing it. The lack of clear direction or consistency is exhausting.

    35. Zephy*

      I was only at this job for about 6 weeks, but something that gave me pause right away was how the owner chose to handle the weekly schedule. She would send it out on Friday afternoons, for a schedule that ran Saturday to the following Friday. The Saturday shift was a half-day and only two people had any given Saturday scheduled, and to avoid overtime the people scheduled for Saturday would come in late and work a half-day at some other point in the following week, which was also never consistent. Making weekend plans or doctor’s appointments was tricky, because I wouldn’t know until 3 PM Friday if I was available before 1 PM the following day, or which morning I would have off the following week, if any. The only consistent thing was that the office was closed on Sundays.

      I asked if there was any sort of pattern, like do Jane and Sally generally get the first and third Saturdays and Tangerina and Nanette get the second and fourth, or if it was possible to have a preferred morning off. Nobody could give me a straight answer. That really should have been my first clue that it was a bad fit, because it turned out nobody could give me a straight answer about anything – general workflow, where can I find X, what is the procedure for Y, all (IMO) reasonable questions for a new hire to ask. I would think I understood something, and then the next time I tried to do a thing, either I’d be wrong or it would be a special case.

    37. Mama Bear*

      Merger with a company where the policies were very different.
      Changing management without being transparent about it. Choosing a manager that was a poor fit for the team.
      Firing people unexpectedly or in a way that made everyone else feel like there was a Sword of Damocles over their heads.
      Consistently doing more with less (materials and people).
      Not offer room for advancement/career growth.

    38. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      1. I have two bosses
      2. They are married to each other
      3. One of them refuses to complete performance reviews for me (because, as I have found out, HR does not know that I am split between the two bosses)
      …among a myriad of other concerns (cries in academia).

    39. Snarkononymous*

      New CEO decided to make her mark so we:

      Spent tens of thousands of dollars on new software that didn’t meet our needs. Turned into a meat grinder for front line staff who were leaving in droves over the stress of not being able to help customers, which was their entire job. We have since spent tens of thousands of dollars to customize the new software to our needs. After 3 years and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in programming and training, we are ‘celebrating’ that it now is almost on par with the old software.

      Ditto with meeting with big donors. New CEO was so off-putting donations dropped by 50% in her first year. We are, again, celebrating that after 3 years we have crawled but to almost the donation level where we were when she started. To wit: We’re celebrating a 90% increase in level of donations since the end of her first year with us. No one is allowed to mention the fact we’re still lower than before she was hired. The few people who have pointed it out have all been let go within a month or so of speaking out about it.

      Lastly, CEO imparts that we must cut back expenses, find savings everywhere, etc. Department managers are fired for failing to find enough savings in their areas. Like, how much can we actually cut back on toilet paper costs before customers complain about the lack of it? Seriously. In the midst of this, the CEO authorizes budget overages to put $10K in new furniture into her office and an additional $250K in objets d’art. So, we have no money, everything has to be trimmed to the bone, but then we have all this extra money for decorations? This came out in the same week as the announcement that there was no money for raises or staff bonuses, unlike the prior 20 years.

      The CEO, CFO, Board Chair, and the Controller are all long time personal friends (for decades), so there’s no oversight. All of the people above are now pushing for staff to under go ‘Integrity Training’ because they feel the culture problems are due to low level staff failing to do their work ‘with integrity’. Yeah, sure, you first.

      Up until this CEO, I would have planned to work here for a very long time. Now, nope. Just nope.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I worked at a law firm that did something very similar – claimed there was no money to give us raises (and we were working 60-80 weeks as non-attorney staff for years, not months or weeks), but then had our building renovated. So we were basically less important than new carpet – got it. I was gone seven months after reno began on my floor.

        3. DrRat*

          I remember a Dave Barry book where he mentioned that a Miami city commissioner spent over $110,000 redecorating her office on the taxpayer’s dime – and I think that was back in the 1980’s. Her comment to the reporter who checked on the story was, “There’s not one item that really stands out. It’s not the Taj Mahal.”

    40. Heat's Kitchen*

      Lack of a clear vision.
      Multiple sales (4 different owners in one year).
      Realizing they play favorites with promotions (not necessarily the best person for the job).

    41. Free Meercats*

      This was in the early 90s, when cell phones were rare and expensive. I worked for a county, mostly alone, out in the field, sometimes in remote areas. I suggested that I have some sort of communication device; like a radio that would use the system the rest of Public Works used, but was told it “wasn’t in the budget or necessary for my job, I should just find a pay phone.” Mentioning that there were no pay phones in the woods got no traction.

      Then one day, the predicted light snow showers ended up being 2 feet of heavy, wet snow. I was out in a river valley, driving a full-size, crew cab, long bed 2-wheel drive pickup truck with highway tires. It started snowing about 3 PM, so I bugged out, got stuck multiple times, and it took me until midnight to get back to the office. Once I got out of the valley and on the road, there was no way I was going to try to find a pay phone and get stuck again. Of course, by that time, my wife was in panic mode and the only phone numbers she had were the office and the Director, so she called him about 10. He called my boss, who had no idea where I was. When I got back to the office, I called my wife, then my boss, then made my way home; got there about 2AM.

      The next day, when he finally made it in, my boss wrote me up for failing to let them know where I was and putting in 8 hours of unapproved overtime. I was gone within 6 months to the job I’m still in.

    42. Anon for this*

      – We are moving in the Spring and have yet to decide where. One choice would add 20 minutes to an already :45 – 1:15 commute, that I really cannot handle.
      – Attributing success to departments that had nothing to do with the success because that person works closely with the CEO (they really have blinders on sometimes)
      – No retirement, stock options, or really anything other than health insurance (which is great)
      – Same annual bonuses for everyone
      – No really strategy, direction, or acknowledgement from the CEO when we succeed. There is no accountability from the top.
      – Very poor maternity/paternity leave policy. I don’t think I can handle having another child here.

      That being said, I do like a lot of things about this job – I’m basically given free reign and I love my immediate boss. I just think I’ll outgrow this within the year (but I want to finish a few major initiatives first).

    43. Drax*

      Main things for me have been two things

      1.we went through a major warehouse transition in less then two weeks due to circumstances out of our control. it was fine and dandy, I had no issues stepping in UNTIL my boss said “this is why we hired you, with your operations experience”. Um. I took a major pay cut for an entry level job in a completely different industry

      2. all of my bosses keep joking how I’ve been here for years and how I’m part of the family. I can’t explain why that just turned me off this company completely, but it did. I’ve worked here for 4 months.

      They also concealed a ton of turnover from us. They said it was a growth period, always been a small team everyone’s been here for years. Well, the forgot to mention that pretty much every other person hired in the last two years has left – and we’re talking 12+ people.

      1. Drax*

        sorry to clarify – I made a career switch out of Ops into data entry job (so not Ops related at all)

    44. Cartographical*

      Personal, indicating systemic issues: Hired a manager’s child-in-law over me bc “they’ll work better together bc they’re family”. (Me: Casual job search activated.)

      Systemic, creating personal issues: Bought out a major competitor in a region with a very different internal (and external) culture* and supported “merging work cultures” to accommodate the new group — to the detriment of the progressive work culture previously in place. *e.g. disapproving of “religious indicators” (hijab/turbans/kippah/etc.) in the workplace, monolingual, “traditional” (read: not queer/trans-friendly) values, minimal work/life balance… the cherry on top: high value on “aggressive” (synonymous with “male”) interaction which promptly degraded previously excellent working relationships with outside agencies. (Me: Immediate exit plan activated.)

    45. not saying*

      I left a job about a month ago. There were a few major factors –
      1 – The program I had previously worked in was terminated for budgetary reasons, and I was transferred to a different program, which I’d “helped out” before part-time; the program I was transferred to served a different population of clients with which I am not as experienced/skilled at serving as the first program.

      2 – Upper leadership changed. Our much beloved executive director retired, and we got a new executive director as well as a new person in a director position which had been vacant for the previous year. Both seemed more interested in the bottom line than safety of staff and clients, quality of services, and how thinly you can stretch your staff before they start resigning en masse. (Did I mention this was in social services/special education.) They accepted several very high-need clients at a time when we were already understaffed and had a number of brand new staff, and then seemed to lay the blame on the staff on the ground when that didn’t go well.

      so yeah, there was a mass exodus. It sucked, because there were things about that job and that workplace that I really loved, but the new program honestly would never have been a good fit for me, and we just didn’t have the support we needed from above.

    46. Middle Manager*

      Echoing some of the above
      -Constant cycles of strategic plans that are never seen through when senior management staff changes
      -Reorg plans that inevitably fall through part way and leave the org chart an unmitigated disaster
      -Avoidance rather than addressing problem employees (no accountability/micromanaging everyone down to the lowest common denominator of bad employee who should be fired)

      Sadly, I’m still here, but it’s become increasingly clear to me that we’re not going to fix these problems and I should get out. I’m actively looking.

    47. De Minimis*

      At my current job it’s obvious to me that they probably don’t need both my job and my manager’s job [currently vacant but about to be filled.] My job is newly created and I don’t think there was a real plan for how I was ultimately going to fit. A lot of it seems based on expansion plans that have stalled, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not. Things have been good these last few months as far as being able to get things done and feeling utilized at work, only because I’ve been doing a lot of the work that my manager was doing [she was fired about six months after I started, I’ve posted a bit about that in some of the open threads.] I’m waiting to see what happens with the new manager, but have applied to a job that I think would be great for me and am looking at other opportunities. I’d originally planned on staying long term, now I’m not even sure I’ll make it a year.

    48. Piano Girl*

      My old workplace made a big deal about how they were going to upgrade the office – new paint, $55k in new carpeting, a full lobby re-design. We just had to move offices into a smaller space. After all the renovations, which only affected those in the bigger offices, we were told they had run out of budget to paint the rest of the offices (including mine). Thank heavens they had enough money to buy useless decorations for the lobby and WAY too many pictures of completed projects! That was shortly followed by a 1% raise and more defaulting on promises they had made. Not long afterwards, I was laid off. My last paycheck shorted me by two days (who works their last day? I did.). Finally they admitted their error and I enjoyed a pretty decent severance package.
      I had loved working there for nine years. Their treatment of me broke my heart.

    49. Lora*

      Seriously, the #1 thing for most jobs that I’ve bailed on: new boss was not great. In a couple of memorable cases, a new boss every few months over multiple years, which was just insane because literally nobody ever really knew what I was doing, what I was supposed to be doing, or whether I was doing it right. A job I stayed at for two years had six bosses in that time. Another where I stayed a year had three bosses and according to my friends who are still there, is still churning through bosses and re-org’ing every few months. One especially awful job had only two bosses in a year, but the second boss was nightmare fuel and resulted in 100% turnover in the department. I do my due diligence, find out who I will be working with and decide whether or not I want to work with that person long term…and then within a ridiculously short time, the company re-orgs or hires someone new or whatever and it’s somehow the absolute polar opposite of the person I liked and wanted to work with. In many cases it’s not even that they wanted a different approach for that role, because they’ll move my now-ex-boss to a similar role in the end, just at a different location or something, and the dude they bring in to replace him is the exact opposite in every meaningful way.

      In CurrentJob, my previous boss had many decades of experience at huge important companies recognized for their quality, and was very hands on, involved every day and checked in frequently, was always available for questions. New boss….well, about once a month he IMs me back, and he doesn’t have much more experience than I do, nearly all of it at CurrentJob.

    50. GS*

      Administratively merged our high-production low-cost long-tenure site (most people had been there 20 years) with a low-production, high-cost, high-turnover site (no one had been there more than 5 years) hoping our site would improve the functioning of the other site. Told to “just sort out” reporting structure, and not given additional support to make up for their nonexistent data management or legal compliance practices. Meanwhile our production targets were doubled, then cut and our budget was zeroed within a production season.

      While my field does involve pivoting relatively fast, I saw a lot of my work discarded repeatedly with little acknowledgement of its worth, then asked to be redone on shorter and shorter timelines while the issues with the other site went unaddressed.

      It’s good that I started job hunting, because I (along with most folks) was laid off 3 months later and was able to walk out of the layoff meeting and accept an offer.

    51. Brownie*

      At a former job: Being told that as an IT jack-of-all-trades if I really wanted to help the startup grow I should be doing the marketing work of finding and investigating places where we could sell our software in addition to my sole-IT person duties. Oh, then there was the 24/365 unpaid on-call work and the no paid overtime holiday work justified by “You’re single and don’t have a family, so it’s fine that you work on Christmas Day when none of our clients are in the office to be impacted.” (I found out after I left how many labor laws that company was breaking. They don’t exist anymore due to their bad management.)

      There’s a form of reorg going on at my current job where management is looking at splitting IT Ops from “we support it all” into software specific Agile/Scrum teams with the software folks. If that happens I’ll be looking for a new job since that means I’m not just on call 24/365 again, but I’ll be pigeonholed in such a way that I’ll have no room to grow my IT skills and will quickly become noncompetitive in the wider job market due to skills obsolescence should I want to leave later on.

    52. Dancing Otter*

      A bounced paycheck. No second chances. If they can’t make payroll, I’m job hunting ASAP. If they don’t cover it within 2 business days, or if they do it twice, I’m quitting for cause and taking it up with unemployment and the department of labor.
      Not being paid is legitimate grounds for quitting, so I believe I would qualify for unemployment benefits. Even if not, how is not getting paid for not working any worse than working and still not getting paid?

    53. Stornry*

      Change in department head. I like the new one so much better than the former – much more comfortable atmosphere and he has demonstrated that he trusts me and my judgement. For that, I’m willing to delay retirement another year until he and other new Administrators come on board so I don’t leave the department without an HR rep. :-)

    54. DrRat*

      Thinking back on companies that I should have fled like a rat from a ship that was not only sinking, but also simultaneously on fire and infected with plague, these are the worst situations:
      1. Management that makes drastic and dreadful changes without consulting the employees who actually do the day to day work. They also do not want to hear any negative comments on their terrible decisions.
      2. A company that makes promises that they never seem to quite follow through on. The day you quit, they are still insisting they will make that promise come true any day now. When you check with your former coworkers five years later, the company is still making the same promises.
      3. A high rate of turnover. As they say, if you can keep your head when all those around you are losing theirs – it’s just possible you don’t understand the situation.
      4. Managers feel free to criticize employees because it’s “feedback” but any constructive feedback from employees to management is considered insubordination.
      5. Nepotism. If there are under 100 employees and anyone in the company is related to anyone else, get the hell out.
      6. No attempt is made to keep excellent employees. All the good people go somewhere else.
      7. Spending priorities are completely skewed (see the decorating examples above.) If the CEO is making a fortune but the employees who hold the place together haven’t gotten a raise in years, bail. Bail now.
      8. Managers who refuse to manage because they hate confrontation.
      9. Companies that don’t know how, when, or who to fire. This can be a company that refuses to fire lazy, abusive employees that everyone hates, or the company that fires excellent people at the drop of the hat on a whim.
      10. When they are cutting employee benefits, polish up your resume. Things will only go downhill from there.
      11. Business practices range from the unethical to the actually illegal.
      12. Much like feces, craziness travels downhill. If the CEO is completely nuts, the rest of the company will be, too.
      13. When different departments in the same company are constantly warring with each other, it’s never a healthy sign.
      14. If your significant other is always saying you should quit, he or she is seeing the dysfunction that you no longer see because you have gotten too used to it.

      I used to consider myself pretty much married to my job – I was totally committed and would put up with a tremendous amount of crap because I’m in this for the long haul, right? Now I consider myself to be in a Tinder relationship with my job – if it works out, great. If it doesn’t work out, I’m not here to fix the broken, and I’m moving on to the next prospect.

    55. Rhymetime*

      I worked in the national headquarters of a nonprofit that had a terrific culture of respect and teamwork with caring and inspiring leadership. When a key leader who had built this successful team over several years left for a different job, the CEO and executive team hired someone who was disrespectful, focused only themself, didn’t solicit feedback or listen to ideas, and didn’t even really understand the organization’s mission. Many of us started talking to each other about looking for other jobs. Because we all had skill sets in fundraising and finance that were in high demand in our region, that’s what we did. I was the first to leave. Within about six months, about half of the staff in the national headquarters had departed.

      There was ultimately a good outcome to all of this. The board of directors noticed how many good employees were leaving. They ended up doing a clean sweep of senior management, including the CEO. They recreated the culture that many of has had been drawn to in the first place, and in fact were able to convince the CFO who had left to return. The place is once again a great place to work. I’m impressed with how the board responded.

    56. MissDisplaced*

      For me currently it’s been the sense of the employer and these open offices + a reduction of the flexibility to work from home.
      Employers KNOW the employees hate open offices and then still force their workers into them anyway. This is pretty much an immediate turnoff for me and makes me start looking elsewhere.

  5. Long break relief*

    General question – is everyone back at work yet? I’m not back until Monday, and it has been such a wonderful break (not in US, min 20 days annual leave + public holidays by law). But boy was it weird to have Christmas on a Wednesday.

    Hope the new year brings exactly what you want / need in your professional lives.

    2. CastIrony*

      One of my jobs has me coming back on the 12th. My other job is one where I’ve had weekend days off, but I’ve been steadily working most days.

    3. Cinnamon*

      I’m back on Monday. The office opened today but I had to change travel plans so I took today and tomorrow off.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We’re all back mostly. A couple took extended holiday pto but most only took a Christmas to NY.

        1. I'm that person*

          I went back yesterday as well but the rest of my group took yesterday and today off so I have been all alone. There are other people on my floor, maybe 10% are here.

    5. Budgie Buddy*

      Back since Dec 26, with Jan 1 off. But I work at a weekly paper so it needs to go out even over the holidays.

    6. NeverNicky*

      I “went back” yesterday (I work from home remotely) but a lot of our organisation and suppliers are out until Monday.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I went back yesterday as well and work remotely, and my manager and counterpart both worked the last two weeks except for the actual holidays (Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and New Years Day).

    7. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Was back at work yesterday, having worked Christmas Eve, and some “cover” work 27th, 30th (half day) and 31st.
      I’m not in a support role, there was no need for me to work. One of the managers just had a hissy fit that work was going to be a week behind when we re-started in January (as it has always been, and has always been accounted for in budgets/Gaant charts etc. for the last decade! Manager has been with us for eight months; I don’t anticipate him being with us in another eight)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This could also serve as an answer to the previous question about why people decide to leave!

    8. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      Back yesterday, we basically shut down completely from 25/12 – 2/1, with some frontline cover.

    9. Tyche*

      I’ll be back on Tuesday, because Monday it’s the Ephipany and here in Italy it’s a holiday.
      This year we were very lucky and we closed from the 24th December till the 6th January included :-)
      I needed it!!!

    10. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I have been WFH, just logging on every couple of days to triage the inbox and send out what can’t wait. Typically in pyjamas with an enormous cup of tea!

      1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        Same! Currently in pyjamas with the huge cup of tea, doing inbox triage. Cheers!

    11. Cleopatra*

      I got back yesterday from a wonderful holiday break. And it got me a bit depressed, particularly that my work load is close to zero.

      Thank God I have AAM !!!!!

      Good luck for all those dreading to get back to work. And always remember, that this is just a phase !!! Much more interesting opportunities are waiting for us out there (we just need to go and get them)!

    12. Drew*

      I was supposed to be back yesterday but got very sick this week (aside: DATE YOUR LEFTOVERS) and so I’ll be back on Monday.

      Quite a few of my coworkers took yesterday and today as vacation time, which I am told had the CEO hauling managers into his office to demand to know why so many vacation requests were approved. I have a feeling I’m going to get an earful about my absence on Monday, or at least a demand to know why I didn’t work from home.

    13. Everdene*

      I’m back WFH today, in the office Monday. My laptop isn’t working though so until I manage to speak to someone at head office (no idea who is in. can’t lig in to find out) I am lying on my sofa reading AAM. Or using this quieter period to focus on professional development and keeping abreast of current trends in employment norms.

    14. Discordia Angel Jones*

      My office only closed on 25th, 26th December and 1st Jan.

      I took 27th December as holiday but had to work 30th and 31st. Suuuuuuper quiet. Yesterday and today are less quiet but still quiet.

    15. Susie Q*

      I was off from 20 December to 1 January. About half of my coworkers are back. The other half are starting back on Monday.

      My nice long break reminded that I really wish I could be a SAHM.

    16. OtterB*

      I am not technically back until Monday ( whole office is closed) but went to the office yesterday and will be wfh some of today to catch up on some things I didn’t finish before the break. But I took off completely for a week and a half instead of trying to finish those tasks around family time.

    17. Sc@rlettNZ*

      I don’t go back until Jan 27th (my last day at work for 2019 was Dec 19th. It’s going to be a rude shock lol. (I’m in NZ and taking several weeks of leave is completely normal where I work).

    18. DarthVelma*

      This was the first time that I’ve taken off the time between xmas and new year’s day, and it was wonderful. But it was really hard coming back yesterday. Part of me wishes I had just taken off until next Monday.

      On the bright side, my office is practically empty today. Two folks have morning appointments and are working from home the rest of the day. One person was out sick yesterday and will probably be out today too. So that will leave me and the other introvert in our office as the only ones here. I’m looking forward to a very quiet and very productive day. :-)

    19. What’s with Today, today?*

      We were off Christmas. The office staff was off Christmas Eve and NYD as well, but on air staff was just Christmas.

    20. CL Cox*

      I work in a school. We were off a half-day on the 20th, started back yesterday. It used to be that 12 month staff only got 24th, 25th, 31st, and 1st off, but for the last couple of years they realized that it costs much more to keep the buildings running for only a few people for the other days, so we’ve been getting paid days off.

    21. The Rat-Catcher*

      We are only closed on the holidays themselves, but I took off the entire week of Christmas and it was good for my soul. Will be repeating next year.

    24. Thankful for AAM*

      We had only xmas day and new years day off, closed at 4pm on the day before each one.

    25. PseudoMona*

      I’ll be back on Monday. My company has a shutdown from December 25-31, New Year’s Eve is a company holiday, and I took 2 PTO days for January 2-3. Twelve glorious days of sitting around in my pajamas.

      My biggest challenge on Monday will be to remember my computer login.

    26. CTT*

      I’m a real estate and finance lawyer, so I’ve been back since the 26th (although I did have the 1st off). My 12/31 deals closed smoothly though, so I left at 4 yesterday and am planning on leaving after lunch today.

    27. NJBi*

      I’m back as of yesterday, and WFH on Tuesday. Several people in my office are taking this week off and are back Monday, but with my travel plans I took the week before Christmas instead. The office was closed on Dec 25, 26, 27 and Jan 1, and the rest we are all taking in vacation–at my workplace you accrue just under 2 days per month for 20 total per year. Extremely generous for the USA! (I have twice the vacation time that my partner does, so every holiday he has off that I don’t, I take in vacation. He also had to work remotely for three of the days that we were away in that two-week span.)

    28. Jdc*

      I am loving Christmas on Wednesday as we were able to use minimum vacation days and still have two weeks off. I was sure yesterday was Sunday and had to check my phone repeatedly because I couldn’t comprehend it was Thursday. I am ready to have the kid back at school as they get bored and do their best to drive your crazy. Husband goes back Tuesday and son on Monday.

    29. Quinalla*

      I am back, but I had a week and a half off and it was a lovely break. I’ve been making a point to take real days off where I don’t check email, etc. I tell my boss or whoever is covering for me that they can text or call if it really can’t wait until I’m back and that I am NOT checking emails and it is wonderful!

    30. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yep. I was technically back on Monday, but worked from home. I took all of Christmas week off as well as the Thursday afternoon and Friday before (we got 12/24 and 12/25 off as holidays).

    31. Chronic Overthinker*

      My office was closed for the 24th and 25th with a half-day on the 31st and closed on the 1st. These last two spotty weeks have been weirdly quiet or insanely busy. Most have been the former. I can’t wait for a regular workload again or at least a regular schedule. I’m all out of whack and not performing at peak function.

    32. Adlib*

      Came back yesterday. Weirdly, some people only came in today, including my supervisor. He was marked as out on his calendar, but he’s here.

    33. Jabs*

      Working yesterday and today. Most of my office is gone and its blissfully quiet and disruption free, I love it.

    34. Quill*

      Most of my team is not (my manager dropped in on monday to check on things, I think) but I could only afford to take the 3 days of actual christmas week off because all holidays are unpaid. (I’m a contractor.)

    35. Yorick*

      I was only out Monday through Wednesday last week, and Wednesday this week. Christmas on Wednesday is lame.

    36. Shadowbelle*

      “Back” at work?

      I never left. I stayed to cover the holidays and solve year-end problems for our foreign plants.

    37. kittymommy*

      We were only closed (office only) on 12/25 and 1/1 and then a half day on 12/24. I think my phone has rung a half-dozen times during this period.

    38. Elenna*

      I didn’t have vacation days yet (started too late in the year) so I worked the whole time excluding Dec 25/26 and Jan 1 (Boxing Day is a statutory holiday where I am), but it was mostly working from home doing some documentation of processes. Came back Jan 2 and immediately jumped into busy month-end stuff…

    39. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I’ll come back on Monday, January 6.

      My last day at work during the 2010s was Monday, December 23.

      NB: In my work, coverage isn’t really an issue — we mainly work on our own projects and have our own calendars. And much of our work is dealing with people…many of whom themselves are out this time of year.

    40. Jaid*

      I was in on Monday and Thursday, but took Tuesday off because I had errands to run before everything closed for NYE and took today off because indigestion/insomnia for two nights is bad for my focus on work, such as it is.

    41. De Minimis*

      We came back day after Christmas, though I called out that day. Worked Monday/Tuesday then off again, and now back to the regular schedule until MLK Day. Still have a handful of people who took extended vacation.
      It’s a medical clinic and as far as I can tell it’s been pretty slow for a while now, but I bet we pick up next week.

    42. EJane*

      I got Christmas Day and New Year’s Day off. I’m currently at work. I don’t work retail or food service.

      yayyyyyyyyy

    43. CatMintCat*

      I’m a teacher in Australia, and our summer break ends on 28 January. I’ve actually been on sick leave since early November (all good now) and am more than ready for some structure in my life!

    44. Lavender Menace*

      I go back on Monday. I’m in the U.S., but my job has a generous time off policy and I took three weeks off at the end of the year. I really needed the time – I am terrible at taking time for myself, and I was burning out.

  6. Curious*

    What’s everyone’s take on online exit interviews? Currently helping a friend through one and it seems very impersonal to me… More like it’ll be filled in the circular filing cabinet never to be seen again.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not a fan of exit interviews in general—online or not. My general feeling is if a workplace is a healthy one (i.e., genuinely open to feedback), you won’t have to wait until you leave to give that feedback. And if it isn’t, well, they’re not honestly going to take your feedback seriously when you leave either.

      2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        I’m not a fan of exit interviews in general either. I think they’re just a CYA thing on the company’s part.

      3. NotAnotherManager!*

        I don’t disagree with this, but some people do not voluntarily come forth with feedback until they leave. Being open to feedback doesn’t mean everyone’s going to take advantage of it, particularly people who’ve come from toxic workplaces and have a default assumption that they’ll be punished for speaking up or people who are new to the workplace and worry that providing feedback will be seen as complaining.

    2. Diahann Carroll*

      I did one when leaving an insurance company, and the process was impersonal, but I liked that because I was able to clearly articulate all of my many problems with that company in my feedback, which I probably would not have been able to do if I had had to sit in front of an HR rep and answer the same questions.

    3. Clever username goes here*

      Mine wasn’t online, and I was on the fence about whether or not to do it at all. In the end, I decided to speak to both HR and my direct manager. I was very clear about the reasons I was leaving a job that almost nobody leaves, which were:
      – no opportunities for upward movement (my manager was a people manager, not an industry expert)
      – passed over for internal promotion because the other candidate was known to the hiring manager and they had ‘rapport’ (wtf??) despite me being the better choice (he admitted it)
      – absolutely no options to include any improvements to processes or procedures (MASSIVE company ruled by corporate overseas)
      – little to no support for professional development if your manager didn’t think you would succeed (c’monnn)
      All that combined made it obvious that it was time to leave after 7 years. I now have a better title, a higher salary and newjob is supporting my professional development into project management. I told them ALL of that… and nothing will change. But it was cathartic.

      1. Clever username goes here*

        To clarify: the internal promotion was to a different department, which was the only option for escape. :)

    4. Anon the mouse*

      That was exactly my take on the online survey I filled out for the last organization I worked with before joining this one – the last question was actually if I wanted to be contacted for an in-person follow-up to talk about my feedback in more detail, and they never contacted me. I guess they really didn’t want to talk any more after I spent the survey railing against the lack of performance-based payscale progress, even though it had been “on HR’s agenda” to implement since 3 years prior when I started working there. I have zero faith that those ever get looked at, especially in a large organization.

    5. Mockingjay*

      When I left ExToxicJob for this one, I stayed completely neutral in my exit interview to preserve my reference from this company. “Everything was fine; just a new opportunity for me.” “I’ve enjoyed working here but I’m ready for a new challenge.” HR asked would I recommend the company to others; I said something along the lines of: “As a [very] small business, Company Toxic offers employees the chance to take on multiple roles, providing growth opportunities.” [*subtext: overworked and understaffed, wearing too many hats]

      Nothing I said in that interview was going to change anything.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have an old co-worker’s exit interview to thank for the 10+ years we telecommuted two or three times a week. Her reasons for leaving were a major pay increase and partial work-from-home schedule. She reports that our HR director blanched at the $ increase and said “I can’t match that, but I’ll see what I can do about the telecommute.” She pushed it through, and that alone kept several of us on board longer than we would have. (See: rate of attrition since TC was revoked by corporate!!)

    7. Adlib*

      Mine wasn’t online for my last job, but I was sent a form to fill out and then had a meeting with the HR rep for our division. I was honest about leaving because of persons X and Y, but I knew it wouldn’t change anything. It didn’t, but I wanted them to know they were causing the company to lose people. It wasn’t a secret to my boss either, and there was no love lost between me and X and Y so I guess I did it to get it off my chest.

    8. Foreign Octopus*

      I’ve done only one online exit interview before and I thought it was a huge waste of time. I’d been at the job only two weeks and realised that it wasn’t for me (there was cold calling when in the interview I’d be told there was no cold calling) and the dynamic of the team was awful (the manager was doing cocaine in front of the new staff on a night out) that I just didn’t want to be there any more. I wish I’d had the confidence to tell them I wasn’t going to do the exit interview but I breezed through it in five minutes and then tried never to think about the job again.

    9. Shadowbelle*

      I see no reason to have an exit interview, ever, online or otherwise. Not a good idea to let them know what you really think of them, if there were problems, and no reason to praise them on your way out.

    10. Anon Here*

      I think they’re really dysfunctional. Since you’ll be relying on the company for references, and they have the power to influence your reputation just by being part of your professional community, you obviously can’t always be honest.

      For example, they could try to hurt your reputation and push you out of your field so you won’t tarnish their reputation by saying the kinds of things you said in the exit interview. It happens, unfortunately.

      I always decline exit interviews or just thank the person for their time and for being a great person to work with. I keep it positive so they’ll leave with a positive impression of me. If there was a serious problem, there are other ways to handle it. And, honestly, if companies want honest feedback, they need to do a better job of protecting people’s anonymity and preventing retalliation.

    11. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I once did an exit interview and I found out from my friends who stayed with the company that it resulted in my boss being laterally transferred as part of a PIP to termination. He went from middle management to a front-line service sector job (according to LinkedIn.)

      So a good outcome is at least theoretically possible.

    12. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Individually they probably aren’t going to be what the departing employee wants…no big dramatic apology or begging them to stay…but to the company it might identify a pattern if there is one. If everyone cites low pay then the company might try to be more competitive, but sometimes they can’t. But if one person says pay, the next says their supervisor is a jerk, the next is leaving for health reasons, the next for more vacation….then the company knows these are individual choices and not something they can change.

    13. De Minimis*

      I wish my last one had been online! I kept getting pestered for more details and though I’d intended on being neutral I ended up venting way more than I’d intended. I didn’t stay there long so I hadn’t planned on using them for a reference anyway…also, I think the bridge got completely burned when I had to file a wage claim with the state due to them taking a long time with my final paycheck.

    14. seller of teapots*

      I manage a large team and I’m so, so grateful when people are honest in exit interviews. Recently someone gave feedback that, in one light, wasn’t that complimentary of me. AND I’M SO GLAD SHE DID. Because she highlighted an issue that I have known about and I had been unable to get the resources to address. Her transparency has been really helpful in changing that!

      If you work for an org/boss where you think they genuinely want to improve, exit interviews are really helpful. If you work for a bunch of schmucks, well take care of yourself and move on.

  7. AnonyMouse*

    When is something to little to late? I have worked at my current company for three years. For the first two and a half I answered to an incredibly toxic director. She was rude, cruel, insulting. She made everyone in the department cry and/or consider quitting at one time or another during her 15+ year tenure in the role. It seems like someone higher up finally realized she was a problem early last year and she was managed out of her managerial duties in late August. However, even with her gone everyone still feels like we’re walking on eggshells and “joke” about having PTSD. This isn’t helped by the fact that our former director still has a job with the company and contacts us not infrequently.

    Due to some organizational changes we’re still waiting to see how our new managerial structure shakes out. We’re being encouraged to hold on until that happens and “trust the company” but there’s a part of me that wants to quit anyway. Just the fact that the former director was so bad and managed to be in her role for so long makes me wary of future management decisions. Not to mention, I haven’t seen any sign that someone is looking into how things got so bad before someone noticed. Should I give my company the benefit of the doubt? Or am I right to want to cut and run?

    TL;DR: Toxic ex-director was allowed in role for 15+ years before being removed. Is this a red flag or just a fluke?

    1. Bilateralrope*

      With a problem that lasted 15 years, what you really want to know is what caused someone to do something about it now.

      1. Pilcrow*

        This is what I was thinking. If there was some change in upper management and there was a new sheriff in town cleaning up the streets, I’d be a little more hopeful (but still cautious, the new sheriff sometimes gets gunned down at high noon). If it was that the toxic person finally did something so intolerable that they had no choice but to manage her out, that’s a little less hopeful because it says she would still be charging on if it wasn’t for that one step over the line.

        Have you been there a long time? If it’s been 5+ years, it probably would be a good idea to start looking around. If things turn around, well, then you’ve at least updated your resume and practiced interviewing and you’ve lost nothing.

    2. Anono-me*

      Maybe what you want to consider is doing some very selective job searching. If you find something wonderful great, go for it. If you don’t find anything wonderful, then wait to see what changes are coming at your current position.

      To me it sounds like you want to leave, but are not sure if the awfulness meter says you can. You can leave for whatever reason you want to. (If you can however, it is typically a good idea to find your next job before you leave your current one. As job searching is usually even harder when you’re unemployed.)

      1. Sunflower*

        Agree with this. I’m a big fan of always keeping the door open- you’ll often know what the right decision is once you realize what else is out there.

    3. CM*

      Everything you’re saying is right — you obviously couldn’t trust the company for the past 15 years, so what’s changed now?

      Maybe something has but, before you decide things are going to be different in the future, someone needs to explain why you should expect that, and it doesn’t sound like they have so far. I’d start a soft job search if I were you, but, when someone tells you to trust the company you could also explain that that’s hard after what happened and ask how things will be different in the future.

    4. Jem One*

      Similar-ish situation where I used to work. One of the managers was the vilest bully I’ve ever encountered – truly a horrible, horrible person – and as a result, staff turnover in our department was astronomical. However, our department was isolated from the rest of the company and the owners didn’t want to get involved. Plus, she got seemingly great results, so they were happy to take an “out of sight, out of mind” approach to her behaviour (results actually massively improved once she left, but she was very good at spinning her achievements).

      I worked there for three months before applying for a role in a different department, because I could not handle working for her any longer. The owners pulled me in and asked why I wanted to transfer. I was honest – polite, but truthful – and explained her behaviour, how difficult it was and how I was concerned about the effect it was having on our other team member (who was only 20 and was being crushed by the bullying). The owners were *shocked* (even though they’d heard it from other people before) and said they’d speak to her. I was concerned about retaliation, but the owners convinced me that they wouldn’t allow that to happen. They spoke to her the next day, and late in the afternoon I got a text message from the bully, firing me! I went back to the owners to ask if I’d be paid in lieu of notice (UK here!) and they were horrified that she’d fired me – they approved my transfer and I started in the new department the next week.

      But, and this the the key thing, they never did anything about the bully. She wasn’t reprimanded in any way (I found this out later). She was just allowed to continue. About a six months later, she handed in her notice, at which point the owners took it upon themselves to go round and interview all of her subordinates about the bully’s behaviour. Once again, they were *shocked* at what they heard (even though they’d heard it all before). They fired her one week before her notice period ended (she had a four week notice period, so she left three weeks after handing in her notice).

      At this point, the young, direct report who had been struggling under her for nearly a year left for another job and gave no notice – she just sent an email telling them that she wouldn’t be coming back. The owners were appalled that she would leave without any notice at all and they didn’t understand why she’d quit now the bully was gone and everything was going to get better. But I was sat there thinking – you left this poor, young woman to work pretty much alone under a horrible bully, knowing exactly what she was going through and didn’t lift a single finger to help her, at any point. Definitely far too little and far too late.

    5. Anon the mouse*

      This is a red flag and not a fluke. There was an AAM letter just this week where someone was told to “trust the company” with their career progression because they were being held back from a promotion, and everyone’s bull$hit radar was pinged in the comments. Someone said “‘trust the company’ means it’ll work out for the company, not necessarily for you” – if they’ve failed elsewhere at managing bad culture, they’ll fail you all here. I hope you’re looking for another job and wish you luck in getting out of there.

    6. Roy G. Biv*

      “Trust the company” — that’s rich. They squandered your trust by allowing someone that toxic to first remain in the power position for 15 years, and then secondly, to still be employed, even if no longer your supervisor.

    7. Anonymouse2*

      Wow are you me? I left a job late last year w a director just like this. In my experience, you don’t last 15 years whilst doling out abuse and harassment without some backing and/or wilful blindness from the high high up. At the very least, it indicates a company or organization that will put its management first before its employees’ legitimate concerns. In my experience, the toxic director is also still hanging around informally as a paid consultant after committing some very heinous and well-documented misdeeds. 15 years is a long time and it’s gonna take a while to change that dynamic.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Well, there is no right/wrong decision here. In these situations, I generally make a two-sided list of Pro’s and Cons to staying or going. It could be you’re just ready to move on regardless.

      Ultimately, I think it depends on how MUCH you actually like your job. If the other aspects are OK (pay, time off, commute) then maybe you stay and give the company a chance to make changes. But if you determine you’re ready to move on for other reasons, then I’d start a selective job search, taking your time to find the right next step for your career.

    9. OhBehave*

      Were the director’s bosses/peers aware of this toxic behavior? I wonder that because if no one tells them they cannot fix the issues. Yes, in some workplaces, these bosses would know because they are working closely enough to observe the actions. That’s not always the case.
      If bosses did know and did nothing in 15 years – too little, too late for me!

    10. Mama Bear*

      I would tell whoever told you to trust the company that you don’t feel that you can. Remind them that the former director who was so awful is still in contact with your team. If you feel twitchy, then you have not received enough reassurance to have trust in the company. What is the company actively doing (vs saying they are doing) to warrant your sticking it out longer? I would likely be doing some job searching to see what your options are.

    11. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Office politics expert Marilyn Moats Kennedy once said that firing people who should have been given the heave-ho years ago can cause more disruption than firing people unfairly. With the former, people figure that top management is now changing its values — and may wonder what (and who)’s next.

      What do you think?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I wonder what she meant by disruption. If she means that people go ahead and quit anyway, I can understand that one.
        If she means that complaints pile on AFTER the firing, I can understand that too. It’s now safe to talk about The Problem.

        However, in my experience the long term bully was fired for something like they burped at the big boss’ dinner party. (Totally unrelated and minor transgression but was personally offensive to the big boss.) And yeah, people will tend to decide that all these birds have the same feather and beef up their resumes to go out the door.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Ms. Kennedy meant that people tend to take sides in destructive office politics because expectations are no longer stable. Since management’s values have obviously changed, nobody (feels they) can be sure they’re safe anymore.

    12. Bilateralrope*

      Start job searching. Your current employer has until you find another job to show you sufficient improvement to keep you.

  8. Lloyd Dobler*

    How’s do you figure out what job you want? I’m feeling a bit Lloyd Dobler from Say Anything recently. I’m tired of non profit politics and everything it takes to woo a donor. I’m looking for something more straightforward—where I can do good work and not worry about mind games. I like puzzles. I like doing different things every day. I much prefer hands on work to sitting behind a computer all the time. Does anything come to mind? I’d appreciate any direction to look!

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      If you like puzzles and variety and don’t want to be tied to a desk all day, you should look into being a field property claims adjuster. They see some pretty crazy things and meet some interesting people along the way (I was an in-house adjuster for years and loved insurance, but ultimately burned out).

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        I check some of these same boxes and I’ve been thinking of trying to get into insurance adjusting… I’ve worked as legal staff (non attorney) for almost a decade and currently focused on insurance litigation so it seems a natural transition.

        Any advice for getting in the door?

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Hey! I was also in the legal field prior to moving over into claims (non-attorney here as well) – see what insurance companies are in your area and which ones having claim trainee programs or positions posted on their website. That’s literally what I did – joined a trainee program – and was paid for the entire 8 month program, then promoted with a nice raise after graduating. An attorney I worked with at my law firm who went through the program with me (pure coincidence) said he had to take a pay cut to do the program, but I actually received a 31% pay increase as a trainee versus being a paralegal.

          Good luck! Depending on what types of claims you end up handling, you’ll have a lot of fun (I enjoyed bodily injury and property liability claims the most) and your background is ideal to get into this line of work.

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Puzzles, doing different things every day, and hands-on work sounds like carpentry or cabinet installation or plumbing or similar.

      1. Not Dave*

        +1. Skilled trades like electrician, carpenter, etc. are all about solving puzzles. The work can be tedious but is rarely boring, and there’s a variety of jobs and career paths within each.

        Depending on your personality, some trades may suit you better than others. For example, if you’re an analytical, low-key person like me, you may make an excellent electrician but would HATE being an ironworker.

    3. Squidhead*

      Numerous health professions come to mind, if you’re willing to re-educate and don’t have any barriers to licensure (not relevant for non-licensed jobs, obviously). Radiology tech, LPN/RN, phlebotomist, lab tech, etc… I’m not gonna tell you that working for a big health-care-provider is free of mind-games, though!

    4. TimeTravelR*

      Through trial and error I figured out that I need someplace with structure… that there is a particular (but not totally inflexible) way to do things. Things like accounting, for example. Certain rules to follow, certain things you must do. I am able to think outside the box on ways to make it better, more efficient, etc., and that is my strength, but I like having that set of guidelines to start with.

      1. TimeTravelR*

        Which doesn’t really answer your question… but for me, the puzzle is how to make things better and still stay within the required guidelines!

    5. Katniss Evergreen*

      Seconding the trade commenters. I have a family member who’s a steamfitter, basically they install and maintain piping systems, supports, etc. There’s a lot of working with interrelated trade jobs and alongside electricians, etc., they’re always working out puzzles in a practical way. My family member was previously in an office job and is much happier doing work with his hands.

    7. Sunflower*

      I’d recommend reading What Color is Your Parachute. It really helps you nail down specifics of what you like and dislike about all parts of work (environment, coworkers, bosses, people you work with, etc)

      1. Emily*

        + 1 –
        I agree that’s a good idea.

        Be wary that this book has a (small) religion element, but I agree it’s generally very useful.

        Copies are widely available from the library, so you don’t have to purchase a copy of the book to read it & get some good ideas and insights.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Are you familiar with “What Color Is Your Parachute?” When I was caught up in big layoffs, they gave us one-on-one counselling, group counselling, and oh so many exercises to help us decide what path to take. And it was familiar to me from having used “Parachute” previously. It’s a self-driven career counselling process, for those of us not so lucky to have access to a human.
      I’m re-purchasing in the latest edition; it’s updated annually. I’m debating whether I want hardcopy or e-book — having my notes searchable could be helpful, but I do like scrawling right in the margins of DIY books!

    9. AnonyNurse*

      Public health! Look at what your local public health agency does and see if any of it sounds interesting. There’s a lot of field work, figuring out how things are related or how they occurred — a rabid bat is found. How many are there? Did anyone come in contact? A bunch of people have salmonella. Where’d they get it? Several kids have been injured on skateboards. How do we promote helmet use and get them to the kids? Did our intervention help? A lot of these jobs want creatively minded people who have a wide range of backgrounds — data, communications, direct care, etc.

      You get to do all the things you mentioned — and improve the lives of the people in your community.

    10. Emily*

      I highly recommend browsing the Occupational Outlook Handbook.

      The online version is VERY useful, and you can easily browse different industries & career paths, and quickly see job descriptions, salary data, and (also important) estimated growth rates of each field.

      This is a government resource, maintained and compiled by the US Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics.

      Occupational Outlook Handbook Website:
      https://www.bls.gov/ooh/

      1. lemon*

        I’d also recommend using ONet’s Interest Profiler, which is another free government resource. It’s a quiz that helps determine some occupations you may be interested in, and it gives career information from the Occupational Outlook Handbook. Doing a quick Google will take you to the online version of the quiz.

        1. Eshrai*

          So I just used ONet’s Interest Profiler and it matches me to basically what my education (accounting) is and what I currently do (training) . It matches me 0% to the career I want to move to (programming). Like, literally says I have no matches with the interests necessary for that field.

    11. RecoveringSWO*

      If your non-profit experience can relate to government agencies that investigate issues/enforce protections, you may enjoy becoming a field agent for a federal or local agency. They might be called something besides field agent depending on the agency, but they’re the ones who are taking interviews, doing on site visits, and making reports with recommendations for government enforcement. DOL, EEOC, EPA, and OSHA are all federal options that come to mind as agencies that might fit the bill. Obviously, soliciting donations isn’t directly translatable, but I can easily see how non-profit skills and passion can relate over.

    12. GS*

      If you like being outside, forestry or ecosystem restoration let you engage with ecosystems (massive, complicated, always-changing puzzles with some fundamental structural rules to help you stay sane) and you can steer towards field time, computer time, or a mix of both. I’ve rarely done the same thing from week to week, though there are similarities on a yearly cycle.

  9. TV Researcher*

    Does anybody use Tableau? If so, what are some tricks or things one must know in order to become an expert. If you’ve got a good blog to point me to, that’d work too.

    I’ve been using it for a while, but I’ve rarely been called to create anything. I generally use charts others have made, and then make changes as I need them. This was fine for a time, but now I have to create dashboards for budgets and whatnot, which is not how I usually use the program. I guess I have issues a) visualizing what I want my data to show and b) how to organize the data to get there.

    TLDR: Any Tableau gurus out there who have advice or blogs to read?

    1. Numbers that make sense*

      Edward Tufte, guru of visual display of complex information. Has 4 splendid books and does an excellent one-day course (not cheap) that I’ve taken. Not software but great for figuring out how to present your data in the most effective way. Numbers

    2. Rexasaurus Tea*

      For blogs and advice, definitely check out the various Tableau Zen Masters’ sites – my personal favorites are Andy Kriebel (VizWiz.com), Jonathan Drummey (Drawing with Numbers), and Anya A’Hearn (Datablick). If you have time, you could also watch some of the session recordings from this past Tableau Conference (tc19.tableau.com/watch) maybe in the “Dashboard and Design” and “Data and Analytics Skills” themes, and see if anything there seems like it could be helpful to you.

      I’ve been working with Tableau for several years now (although certainly not a guru!) and I’ve found that for me it works best to start with a general idea of what I want to know, and then ask myself how I could quantify or measure that using the data set that I have available, and then drill in from there. Sometimes I browse through the data sets first to see what kind of data and fields and details are being logged, so that I have an idea of what kinds of things people felt important enough to track. I also end up revising and re-revising a bunch once things start coming together. I think one of the trickiest parts is figuring out what the questions are, before I can start figuring out what the answers are.

      1. TimeTravelR*

        Thanks, Rex! Now I am going to end up going down the rabbit hole of dashboard design all day! These are awesome!!

    3. TimeTravelR*

      We are just starting to use Tableau at my work and just from the demos, I am madly in love! I can’t wait for the contractor to come to my department! So, no advice, but keenly interested in responses to your request!!

    5. Borgette*

      I’m the resident Tableau whiz at my work. I got my skills by using Tableau every day, with lots of different data sources, creating lots of different outputs. I learn best with hands-on experimentation, so Makeover Monday and Workout Wednesday work well for me. You can find either by Googling the name + Tableau.

      Makeover Monday takes a published visualization and challenges participants to re-design it. The project introduces you to a lot of different data sets, which is so so so important for understanding the relationship between your data and the visual. Looking at other’s work is very interesting, and introduces you to new approaches. Watching the reviews is a great way to learn about common pitfalls & best practices.

      Workout Wednesday is probably the best way to learn Tableau tricks. Generally the challenges are specific to Tableau and require using various technical skills, and even ‘hacks’, to re-create the posted workbook. It really helps you develop a sense of what can be accomplished with Tableau, where the limits are, and an instinct for what approach to use in a tricky situation.

      Whatever you do, make sure you start posting your *Non-Proprietary* work to Tableau Public, developing a portfolio of your work.

    6. baby yoda*

      There’s an online community that posts a weekly data set and takes submissions of new/interesting/useful ways of re-presenting them, and most people use Tableau. Google “Makeover Monday” or check out this site: https://www.makeovermonday.co.uk/ Good way to work on your skills.

    7. ten-four*

      Hmm, I’m trying to leave a comment with a link to a PDF of a book called Data+Design. It’s on open source book on effective data visualization: how to tell stories with data and what types of visualizations work best with which types of data. The lead editor, Trina Chiasson, ran a company that was acquired by Tableau a few years back.

      It’s a stellar primer and it’s freeeeee! Full disclosure: I edited a chapter :)

      I guess commenting forbids links, but if you search Data+Design book Chiasson it’s the first hit in Google!

    8. Can't Remember My UN*

      I’ve been working with Tableau for about two years. What helps me is to have an end in mind. I usually have a rough idea of the design of the dashboard I am looking for (which can change over time), which helps to focus on what I want to do with the data. Google has been my best friend, as well- almost any question I have, someone has asked and posted a video or blog or detailed steps about. It really helps to build out something where you know the data well and have a good idea of how to analyze it. That way, you can focus on learning the tool.

    9. Gaia*

      I use Tableau daily. They actually have some decent training videos on their website (free) and some on-demand trainings ($140/year) that I used to learn a ton.

      What really helped me was the forums, however. It was re-making other vizs either to recreate what I liked or to improve them and then posting for advise. It is a really great community.

    10. Blarg*

      I love Tableau and was the first user at OldJob, giant state agency, so had no one in my org to ask questions and of course, actual training was out of the question. Generally, it was easy and I liked that I could look at data we’d had for years in new and creative ways that wouldn’t have even occurred to me prior. Like ‘oooh, what happens if I graph it by X and Y but color Z differently and filter for W?” But I found specific areas where it can be frustrating … like god forbid you add a column to your excel file. Tableau just can’t figure it out on its own (although I think recent updates have fixed the issue). Since I was doing very specific stuff and only using Excel as a data source, most of the time, I’d just search Google/YouTube when I had questions or issues. I’m super proud of the public dashboards I built, which are still being used, but the more important stuff ended up being what I discovered in our data just mucking around. Even data-savvy researchers respond well to visuals, and I was able to ‘prove’ some things and improve some processes because I could show them. It makes taking a data set with hundreds of columns and tens of thousands of rows actually usable beyond the things you knew you were looking for.

      TLDR: I assumed Tableau could do everything I wanted, so when I couldn’t figure it out, I asked the internet.

    11. Yorick*

      As far as I know, no one here has or uses Tableau, but boy do they call me all the time to sell me a renewal.

    12. Hillary*

      I like Practical Tableau by Ryan Sleeper for how to, especially how to do things that I already knew how to do in excel or other BI tools.

      I’ve been using the Good Charts Workbook from HBR to broaden my skillset, I like it so far.

    13. J.B.*

      My biggest tip with Tableau is to get data at the level of aggregation you want before you start charting. I prefer to do things like sums and counts in SQL if I know I won’t need the individual rows, because combining stuff in Tableau is a PITA. I took a community college course which was pretty cheap and quite good.

    14. NotAnotherManager!*

      Does your local library have a Lynda.com subscription? They have Tableau (and nearly anything else you’d like to learn) classes with exercise files.

    15. TV Researcher*

      Wow! You guys are great. You have given me lots to read and sites to check! It’s very much appreciated.

  10. cubone*

    Anyone have experience or tips tolerating a boss who’s not mean or an asshole, but just…. incredibly dumb?

    I really don’t want to be rude or condescending, but she seems like she popped out of a sheltered private school into the world for the first time (but is a woman well into her career). I’m utterly baffled how she got into any management role of any kind and has caused absolute chaos because she panics any time we get… any work assignment ever. I try really hard with an agenda and preparation, but she steamrolls the majority of our “1:1” time with a vent about all the work on her plate, how stressed she is, how she stays up all night worrying about [incredibly minor basic project I don’t give a single thought to after 501….]. Sometimes I bite my tongue because I can’t think of anything to say that’s not “maybe this job isn’t a good fit then”??

    We just found out our new hire for a very senior role in the company is in her 30s with an incredibly accomplished resume and my boss is whispering to everyone constantly “do you know exec is only 35?!?!?” (in a panicked tone that makes me extremely uncomfortable). She’s mid/late 40s I’d guess and is VERY insecure about anyone in senior roles she believes are younger than her. I’m just at a loss. I adore my job and never before this had the experience of waking up with a pit in my stomach, but I sometimes feel like a babysitter more than anything.

    (Before anyone asks: yes I’ve spoken to HR, who is very supportive and have mentioned moving my role to another team. Yes, I think boss is being watched closely and there may be things happening behind the scenes. But my patience is dwindling and I’m becoming so irritable and intolerant of the situation in the meantime.)

    Anyways, thanks for reading this vent at least :)

    1. Incompetent boss advice*

      Oh, I’ve definitely worked with this type of boss before. Two tricks I used so that I could get anything done at all was…

      1. Use the “Ask for forgiveness, not permission” strategy
      2. As soon as any decision is made (nomatter how small) act on it immediately

      An example with a combination of the two
      Me: “What venue would you like for the Christmas party, A or B?”
      Boss: “Uhhhh, let’s do A.”
      Me:
      Boss (15 minutes later): “Actually, let’s do B.”
      Me: “Sorry, boss, I’ve already paid the non-refundable deposit.”
      Boss: “Ok, then I guess A it is.”

      1. Incompetent boss advice*

        Arrrgh, the second “Me” should be …immediately runs off to book venue A and pay deposit…..

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I had a boss before who was incredibly dumb. Like he wasn’t dropped on his head as a baby, he was straight up yeeted into the wall. I treated him like a National Geographic special and acted like I was observing wildlife. It made things tolerable as I looked for another job.

      2. Cartographical*

        I choked on my coffee at “yeeted”. I think I worked for OP’s manager’s counterpart in my field at one point, only this person was also crystal clear that all they really wanted was to be a stay at home parent and resented all of us for somehow conspiring — simply by existing — to put them in this role.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I don’t always cackle loudly at my desk, but WHEN I DO, there’s inevitably a senior manager walking nearby. Thank goodness it’s standard lunchtime hours.
        Yeeted into a wall indeed!

    3. Daniel Atter*

      Been there, done that. In my case my boss was a good salesman who was hopeless at running a department, but somehow found himself doing it. The way it turned out effectively was that I basically took over running the department, and he kept selling. It worked for the department, was good for my reputation in the company (because everyong knew) and obviously I got good experience (sure, without the pay cheque for a managerial job, but it helped me prepare for the job and pay cheque I have now). Importantly, if I made any mistakes, he always took full responsibility for them.

      I found, given that I was happy to take on that responsibility, the trick was to say things like “If it’s alright with you, I’ll take care of that” or “I’ll manage that if you have no objection?” He was happy to pass it on as it reduced his stress, and it made sure the department operated.

      Some people might think he took advantage of me, but he advocated heavily for me to get substantial pay rises and bonuses and so it was a win-win for everyone.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds like she has reason to be worried she won’t have a job soon!
      But seriously, I can’t say what’s going on with her. Either she’s truly in way over her head for some reason (did she change fields?), or she’s incredibly distracted by something outside of work. Or, she has paralyzing imposter syndrome. Who knows?

      But if she’s not truly horrible outside of being lost… I’d say you just continue to support as best you can by doing your job and managing up a bit. If she starts going down the panic trail, cut it off by staying factual. “Ok, well, here’s that TPS report then.”

      1. cubone*

        She did change fields! Well, same type of job function, but went from corporate to nonprofit. I know nonprofits get a reputation for chaos sometimes, but I think we have a very functional, supportive workplace. Minus this blip, haha. I’ve never worked corporate (all nonprofit/public sector), so I don’t know know if it’s the transition or just her. It does seem to me like she prefers to be in a position where she can dole out tasks to junior staff and just take credit – her title level is definitely more strategic, but all our other managers are very much “in the weeds” when needed. The generous side of me says she’s learned these behaviours from other bad managers; the less generous thinks she went nonprofit so to indulge her insecurities with a warped idea of “altruism”.

        Just reading other people’s sighs and fellow experiences made me feel much less alone and I appreciate the advice given!!

    5. Adlib*

      I’ve worked with this type before, and I feel you. The fact that there are so many people out there like this…yikes.

    6. OhBehave*

      It’s baffling how these people make it into managerial roles, isn’t it? Your boss most likely has been warned. That or she knows she’s inept. In your 1:1, act as if you are watching a show. Let her vent, wring hands, etc. Your internal monologue will be, “Holy crap, Batman! She is BSC.” Do all you can to remain unaffected by her hysterics. It’s a mental shift.

      Hopefully her role will change soon.

  11. Hamster*

    I’ve been at my company for 5 years and exactly 4 women/2 men have gone on maternity/paternity leave. How many are still here? 1 man 0 women. That alone is making me a little anxious but then when I think about it….

    1 (manager) quit to be a SAHM.

    1 (manager) came back after a year and works PT/remotely as an individual contributor. but not as a manager and definitely (I’m assuming here) not with the same salary & benefits as management level. I worked under her at the start of my position and she was well loved by everyone.

    1 (an admin position) went on extended leave and ended up calling out once a week after coming back. Our company tried to accommodate her by creating a WFH position for her but it didn’t work out and she resigned

    1 (individual contributor)…. went on leave, came back, and either went on leave again or quit, but I am not sure tbh.

    1 (male manager) went on paternity leave. There was restructuring and his position was gone. But, he had clashes with upper Mgmt and everyone expected him to resign at the end of his leave.

    I am a manager in a new department that’s been successful and truth be told, I am a little worried about losing my job.

    I’m still early and I don’t plan to tell anyone else until I’m far enough along. I know a little about FMLA. I’ve only told my boss and he’s super happy for me and I know he’ll have my back. My grand boss, I am not sure about.

    It’s one of those things that sounds bad but when you evaluate each situation it’s not that bad?

    It’s probably useless to worry at this point..right?

    1. Bilateralrope*

      I’d suggest you start documenting everything. That way you’ll be in a stronger position should they try anything illegal with you.

    2. Maya Elena*

      Were any of those high-stress jobs with relatively little pay to compensate?
      Lots of stress for little money might just be the thing which pushes a person to forfeit the job entirely rather than signing up for the job-daycare rat race.

      1. Hamster*

        We’re tax accountants so yeah high stress at least part of the year. Pay, I’m not sure, as I’m not aware of anyone’s salary but I believe it’s average.

        The first one, her spouse was making 2x as much (her words) that’s what made sense for them. The one who resigned, she extended her leave because kids were out of school for the summer and daycare was too $$. She got a new job that was close to home and coincided with her kids school schedule.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Upthread I described a workplace that had a really bad track record with moms (not all parents, just moms). Don’t just look at parental leave, look at how they accommodate parents of older children and other carers – is the workplace generally flexible? who generally gets promotions and key projects? is there a lot of last-minute travel?

      1. Hamster*

        That’s a good way to look at it.

        They did create a space for one of them to pump milk-it was a meeting/break room, they installed a privacy curtain and a mini fridge and Sent out a company wide email that pumping mother’s have priority on this room—so top level down it sounds good, but did a few jerks grumble about it? No idea. Even though that employee is gone, the accommodations are still there (people just nap or hold meetings there now).

        Either most are young and single/childless or have grown kids. People in key Mgmt roles are parents of young kids or single or married w no kids.

        1. Massive Dynamic*

          Just a curtain? In the breakroom?!?!?!! Oh god no. Even if the person pumping can lock everyone else out of the room, that’s a recipe for failure. Too much existing demand on a room to all of a sudden turn it into a pumping room. I’d be too stressed in there to produce any milk.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            I think it sounds like it was a separate room with a privacy curtain that could be pulled across the glazing when in use.

            But I agree with the yikes – it’s a bare minimum box tick. I wouldn’t have managed to maintain pumping in that environment (pumping is hard in the best circumstances, and these are not the best circumstances). My baby was on solids by the time I returned to work, so suboptimal pumping didn’t matter; if baby had been under six months it would have been a real problem.

            I am also giving side eye to the low/non-representation of kid-parents in decision-making positions.

            (yes I like hyphens)

            1. Hamster*

              People in key Mgmt roles are parents of young kids or single or married w no kids.

              >>> isn’t that representation? I’m so confused now?

              1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

                It may mean that people can’t juggle key management positions with school-age children.

                It may be coincidence.

                That’s why I’m suggesting you look at wider trends across the whole company. Are there any employees with older/teen children? What kind of positions do they hold? They are the most likely to need flexibility, in my experience (e.g. as daycare is typically wraparound, whereas childcare options for children of school age are more limited).

          2. Hamster*

            I’m so confused now. It’s a small clean room (same size as all other meeting rooms) that has a lock and privacy. What’s awful about that?

            1. Massive Dynamic*

              It reeeeeally all depends on how it’s managed. Sometimes employees are resistant to change, and if a room was once the room where they ate lunch/made private phone calls/did yoga etc. etc. and now it’s off limits to all but pumping mothers, then some people can get a bit entitled and huffy about it. It’s all in how management presents the change, and how they shut down anyone who is mad about losing the space.

              And if it’s still the break/phone/etc. room until a pumping mother needs it, then that woman needs to have 110% support of management to kick anyone else out. This is where good pumping plans can fall down, as it could be damn hard for a junior employee to tell a VP that they need to clear out of a shared space. The trick (again, by GOOD managers), is to do all you can to not have your pumping employee be the one to directly manage this. And not have crappy VPs.

              Signed, someone who had to sometimes tell an amazing VP to take a hike from the conference room so she could pump and VP was awesome, apologetic, and immediately accommodating each (rare) time.

              1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

                I suspect that at least in some cases the best way to handle it would be…have the room for pumping only.

                Yeah, in a perfect world that would be wasteful and inefficient.

              2. Hamster*

                Ahhh gotcha, thanks for the clarification! I can see why it sounds so bad In theory but in practice it doesn’t seem to be so.

                It seemed like it was a positive change, if anyone made any negative noise about it I never heard about it. based on how things have been in the past, if a mother were to complain that people were giving them a hard time, a mass email would go out to everyone as a reminder that they have priority first and I can definitely see this as a serious HR issue. our HR is also a mother of 2 school age kids so I do think she’d handle it properly. Nothing of the sort has happened (to my limited knowledge.. Upper mgmt never uses these rooms, VPs/etc meet in the CEOs office (which is all glass so no visual privacy). Im not worried about having to kick someone out.

              3. Hamster*

                IIRC the pumping mothers only used it for a few months at a time and there wasn’t overlap. People were still allowed to use the room at other times but the mothers had priority always.

                I’ve read so many horror stories about how awful some workplaces are where they’re given filthy rooms, bathrooms, cramped janitors closets, going to their cars etc. this is a small clean room w/ privacy and a fridge (and no ones stealing breast milk either) and most of the workers here (senior to junior) are decent humans so i don’t think it’s so bad.

            2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

              It’s still used for breaks and meetings. Pumping moms may have priority but there could be problems if there aren’t enough alternative venues for meetings and breaks. A pumping room should be for that purpose alone.

        2. DCR*

          Given that you are legally obligated to provide a place for pumping mothers in the United States, and because that sounds like a crappy space to pump, I wouldn’t give them credit for that.

    4. Fikly*

      So, successful return to work after having a baby! The statistics are terrible, and also more complex than it might seem.

      Yes, there are absolutely companies doing illegal things. But there are also a ton of companies who skirt the line by not directly doing illegal things, but by having environments that are so unfriendly to working parents, that they end up quitting within the first year, and so it is legal, but not good for the parents.

      Within that group of companies, some are doing it intentionally, and some aren’t, but are just clueless. It’s important to know which your company is, if possible, because sometimes you can work with the clueless ones to make things better, either for you, or company wide.

      I’d highly recommend working with a back to work coach/professional, which is someone who specializes in helping women/parents with exactly this transition. They can help with knowing what your rights are during pregnancy, for leave, once your return, and also in figuring out how to have conversations with your management and coworkers, if needed. They can also give an unbiased perspective on what category your company may fall into.

      I hope everything goes well!

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        But there are also a ton of companies who skirt the line by not directly doing illegal things, but by having environments that are so unfriendly to working parents, that they end up quitting within the first year, and so it is legal, but not good for the parents.

        Yeah, a lot of places look at the minimum they need to do in order to comply with the law and not what will be good for everyone in that place where business needs overlap with employee needs (i.e., a business needs engaged and talented employees and employees need to be taken care of in certain ways—what does that space look like when we’re talking about family leave and return to work). With one of my children, the place I returned to pushed back on my request for pumping space and time, because they knew the exact parameters of the laws they needed to follow. While they were technically correct (the best kind of correct, right?), it was a crappy thing to do and was indicative of a larger attitude towards employees in general, moms returning to work specifically.

        It does sound like the OP’s company has demonstrated this disregard, at least not by the information given, but there’s a lot we don’t know about each of those situations.

    5. Colette*

      I’m in Canada where 1 year of leave is normal, and it’s really common for people to not come back after maternity leave (by choice) – either the break gives them a chance to re-evaluate what they want from their career and they find another job, or they decide they can make staying home work, or their daycare choices mean they need a change.

      The explanations you give above could be legitimate – having a child is one of those major life events that can have far-reaching implications. Or they’re not, and your company pushes out people who take leave – but I don’t think there is a clear pattern of that based on what you’ve said above.

    6. WellRed*

      I’m unclear on why you think you’ll lose your job. It sounds like your company is pretty accommodating and that’s assuming you even need any accommodating. To me, it sounds like these people, except the guy, all decided to take a step back, not that they were forced to.

      1. Nita*

        Yes, that’s what it sounds like to me also. In fact, I’d think of the fact that one manager ended up working remotely and another was offered this by the company as a positive. In my experience working remotely is not great for one’s career, but it’s worth its weight in gold and precious stones when it comes to balancing the career and the baby’s needs. When I got pregnant I was 100% sure that I’ll take the FMLA leave, be back full steam at 12 weeks (I mean – 12 weeks! that’s a lot! no one takes 12-week vacations!!!), find the baby a nanny, and be completely happy with the result. Well… I’d been around lots of kids but not many newborn babies at that point. I totally underestimated how hard it would be to leave someone so tiny and helpless. I ended up doing a lot of things differently than I’d planned, and am very glad my boss was able and willing to work with me on that. My career did take a hit, but it was temporary and I was actually able to move into a more senior management role while working remotely, and build on that once I started coming into the office again.

    7. Joel*

      Not every person who leaves does so because they’re pushed out. My wife had a long hours/high stress job and (a few years after she came back from leave) went part time a few months ago because I got a higher paying job. A coworker’s wife left her job because her salary was about what they were paying for childcare and she preferred to be with her kids.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Funny how it’s almost always the mom who ends up giving up work. Funny how it’s almost always the dad whose current and potential position and earnings would be considered more likely to support the family.

        Not a criticism of your situation, and it’s where we ended up too. I’m just pointing out that these decisions aren’t made in a vacuum.

    8. Cartographical*

      Agreed with the suggestions on documentation & scoping out the job market but also think you shouldn’t stress too much — yet. Can you talk to anyone who’s been there longer about why they think this is the trend?

      Around here, it’s estimated that a 2-income family with kids has a joint “profit” of a whopping $2000/year over 1-income families where the working spouse has a similar role as the higher-earner of the 2-income family. Many families choose to “soak” the $2k loss and have a parent stay home. My partner’s work sees less attrition than you describe but it’s notable for its unusually good benefits package and being the kind of place that people are committed to on principle (being a cooperative) and not just a paycheck. It’s not unusual for families around here to go single income after the second kid, though women in the C-suite in his industry generally make enough that it’s normal to see their spouse go SAH or they hire a nanny — it’s cheaper than daycare if you have two under five or more than two total.

      All that is just to say — systemically, our culture does not make it viable for many parents to return to work if it’s not necessary to do so for survival purposes.

    9. Mama Bear*

      It may be coincidence, or it may not. I would document anything that you think might impact your performance review/consideration for your job. Use the FMLA, have a plan for when you are out, and a plan for your return. Truthfully if it would have been feasible for me to stay home or work PT the first year, I would have, simply because 12 weeks of FMLA went so fast and it was hard to leave my kid. A friend of mine left her job b/c her husband got an incredible offer and she no longer had to work if she didn’t want to, and once the baby came along, they decided she would be home. There may be underlying circumstances you aren’t privy to, so I wouldn’t panic just yet.

    10. Heat's Kitchen*

      To me, these sound like a lot of personal decisions, not decisions made by the company. Becoming a parent is HARD. Many women intend to come back to work and realize that isn’t for them once they’re out on leave. Some prefer to go down to part time during this season of life (and if a company is supportive of that, it can work out in the long run for both parties). You’re making a lot of assumptions here and I think it’s all unfounded. I don’t see anything that screams the company pushed these people out.

    11. HBJ*

      Sure, keep an eye on if it seems like the company is down on people taking parental leave, but none of what you’ve listed sound like red flags to me.

      It’s a bit of a “wrong” thing to say these days, but the fact is many families want one parent staying home with the child/children. And many woman want to be a SAHM. There’s nothing wrong with that, and it doesn’t mean people are being pushed out if they quit after leave. I know lots of people who planned to go back to work post leave and changed their minds. You could have offered me the best maternity leave in the world and/or the most flexible job in the world, but unless it was 18 years or 10 hours a week and able to be picked up and put down at will and done at any time (meaning I wouldn’t have to have daycare), I still would have quit.

  12. Bilateralrope*

    I’m asking out of curiosity. If an employer has a single position that needs 24/7 coverage (eg, security guard), how is it typically done where you are ?

    My employer does it with 12 hour shifts on a 4 on, 4 off rotation. 2 people permanently on nights, 2 on days. Which means they each work an average of 42 hours per week. 36 hours for 4 weeks, then 48 for the next 4.

    But I’m in a country where there are no laws about an overtime rate if you work more than x hours per day/week. So I’m curious how overtime laws affect the roster.

    1. Squidhead*

      Even in the US, these laws vary: I am a union RN and our contract specifies that “full-time” is 80 hours in a 14-day pay period. Maximum hours we can work in 7 days is 72 (6 12-hour shifts). No, we don’t get OT if we exceed 40 hours in 7 days. Presumably, if someone’s days are all clumped together they will also have a clump of days off (easier to do when the pay period is 2 weeks long), but 72 hours in 6 shifts feels looooong!

      1. Laney Boggs*

        It’s obviously not your fault but… I dont think I’d want a nurse on their 70th hour in 6 shifts.

        I’m consistently baffled by the hours healthcare workers keep

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I know someone who had a tired junior doctor come in to do her stitches, after a vaginal delivery.

          Doctor had been working for more hours straight than most people work in a week.

          She did not want him to do her stitches!

        2. Squidhead*

          That’s fair! Most of us don’t usually work 6 days sequentially…more like 2 to 4 days on followed by 2 or 3 days off. But (to the original question) we would not be prohibited from doing it and we would not earn OT if we did it.

          Since 80 hours divides unevenly by 12, most people use the remaining 8 hours as a shift (we are allowed to work 8s as well as 12s at this hospital). Sometimes it is used for a meeting or a class, depending on the person’s exact position and responsibilities.

        3. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

          My husband and I had a really amusing culture clash over that – I was in medical school, where I had some rotations where doing 12hour days was the “normal” length of day while he’s in engineering, and was at a very safety focused company. He just could not wrap his head around the idea that I was routinely working longer hours than the truck drivers at his work were allowed to, while actively caring for patients.

          (It didn’t get better in residency – I’ve worked plenty of 16hour days, and feel grateful I’m not at a program with 24hour call!)

    2. Anony Shark*

      We have either 2 or 3 people covering each 20-22 hour period. They work either 4 or 5 days per week. People work similar start and finish times, so their body clock gets used to it and they can arrange their personal lives around a predicted work schedule. I’ve discovered a lot of people prefer working non-traditional hours. We’ve had parents who want to work night shifts so someone will always be home for the kids, or people who want to work very early morning because that’s when their spouse works.

    3. Daisy Avalin*

      I work in a 24-hr petrol station (uk), and we have three shifts of one person over the 24-hrs – 7am to 3pm, 3pm to 11pm, and 11pm to 7am. Overtime isn’t really a thing, although if one shift has to stay later/start earlier you do get paid normal rate for that.
      We have set days/shifts for each person, for instance I work nights only, and preferably weekend nights due to childcare needs. Of course I may need to cover holidays for the other night shift guy when needed (as he does for me) but that’s an as-and-when.

    4. Poppy the Flower*

      I’m a doctor in the US and at my hospital we have multiple day shifts (includes afternoon/evening shifts) and a night shift. The day people rotate between any of the day shifts but the night people only work nights. I’m nights and I work an average of 3 shifts a week. We don’t get paid overtime for staying late and are salaried… but if we pick up an extra shift that isn’t assigned to anyone we get paid moonlighting rate (it’s kind of similar to a contractor rate so is higher than a normal shift).

    5. Cartographical*

      The norm here is 8hr x 3 shifts, sometimes offset across positions for full coverage of shift transitions and breaks — often with rotation of shifts (unless someone requires a set shift to accommodate childcare or parental care) so no one works third shift year-round. People with kids often take the second or third shift over the summer months to reduce childcare costs. When I was a kid, some of my friends’ parents worked solely 2nd & 3rd shifts so they’d go to bed to one parent and wake up to the other. (This was during the dinosaur days so no one batted an eye at the gap when parents were transitioning on and off shift. I swear 100% of our parents would have been in trouble with CPS if we lived today with the norms we followed then.)

    6. Princesa Zelda*

      My brother is a stocker at a grocery store, and his position has 24/7 coverage. The way it’s arranged, there are three shifts: 6-3, 2-11, 10-7. Each shift gets an hour unpaid lunch with half the stockers taking lunch at one time, and overlaps with the shifts before and after so they can hand off. Most of the workers are PT, so OT doesn’t matter with them anyway, but even FT rarely ever brush up against OT.

  13. Corgi*

    I’m a manager in a dept that is led by 2 senior managers (Possum and Hippo) and us 3 managers and we have remote staff to manage. While both Possum and Hippo are on the same level, the job of directly managing us (ie coaching, holding reviews etc) is split with possum managing myself and one other manager, while Hippo manages Lemur. BUT b/c they are on the same level, we technically report to both of them. Hopefully this is clear enough.

    Ok so…we had new staff begin early last month. My coworker and I developed the training manual and shared it with the other managers. Each mgr is responsible for training their own staff member. On day 2 of the training, I had a meeting with my remote and the staff member for the other team was in the meeting as well. Pretty much the remaining training sessions included both of them.

    I went to talk to her manager, Lemur, and she said. “I had no idea. I don’t know who that is, I wasn’t here last week.” I told her OK but the new hires were announced in our weekly meeting earlier this week and you were there for that. She just said “no I wasn’t there.” (SHE WAS THERE!) She just kept playing it off as if she had no idea what was going on because she wasn’t there.

    tbh I was kind of shocked so I didn’t say anything and walked away. She later came up to me and said “okay so you’ll take care of her?” while I was in the middle of presenting (!) to the new team.

    I told Possum about this and he didn’t like it but b/c Lemur is under Hippo, he didn’t want to over step and for Hippo to do his job and actually manage her.

    And… Hippo did step in and basically fobbed it off on us. He said “oh I talked to Lemur and she doesn’t understand why Corgi didn’t set up the meeting links for her team as well.”

    Possum was LIVID about this. He was like “that’s not her fking job!” (not literally but that sentiment). This is the 3rd batch of new hires we’ve had, so that process where each manager is responsible for setting up their own team has NOT changed.

    The thing is that Lemur has taken so many days off, which is normally NOMB but now that I and others were left picking up the slack, Possum was getting frustrated by that AND Hippos lack of management. But Hippo won’t do much except throw it back to us. There’s other examples to back it up but this was pretty much the big one.

    Most recently, Lemur approached me and said “oh you set the new person up wrong.” I just pointed out that the new staff Member had confirmed their email address. I was nice as possibly be. But internally I said “at least I did your job for you. You’re welcome.” again….NOMB that she has time off but..come on, not even an acknowledgement and a complaint on top of that?

    I’m on vacation now, so I’m not as annoyed as I was whe this happened but, I’m not wrong to be annoyed at this right? FWIW most of my annoyance is directed at Hippo for not managing Lemir effectively.

    1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      No, I think your annoyance is more than justified if a little futile (since even Possum can’t do anything about it)

      (I *adore* these uses of names BTW!)

      1. Corgi*

        Thank you! Possum has full authority to step in if he has to (just like Hippo can give me feedback if what I’m doing is affecting his team) but he doesn’t want to have to do Hippos job for him.

    2. Quinalla*

      Annoyance is justified. If something is going on with Lemur, then duties need to be properly delegated to others, Lemur and/or Hippo treating it like you or others messed up for not covering things that are supposed to be Lemur’s responsibility.

      Doesn’t sound like there is much you can do except keep bringing up with your boss so that none of this nonsense makes you look bad.

      1. Corgi*

        Thank goodness my boss is on my side on this. I’m annoyed @ lemur not for the PTO but taking it for granted.

        What makes it a little more frustrating for me anyways is that she has a very soft tone but professional. Whereas, I have a very non feminine voice and I try SO hard to have a nice, calm tone but no matter what I end up sounding rough or cross. It’s the sound equivalent of a RBF (ugh!) So anyone sees and they think I’m bullying her.

    3. Marthooh*

      Sounds like Lemur is gaslighting you. She may also be gaslighting Hippo. Document the everlovin’ stuff out of all your interactions with her — send follow-up emails, keep a log of weird stuff she does, keep your behavior with her completely professional. (Don’t keep a spreadsheet of her absences, though!)

    4. Myrin*

      I know this is not the main point of your story but I can’t get over the fact that Lemur said she wasn’t at that meeting when you saw her there.

      1. Corgi*

        *jumping up and down arms flailing about* YES EXACTLY!! And I’m the jerk for pointing it out!!!!

        She just kept shaking her head and saying no I was awaY. I pointed it out and she still said no. She denied knowing ANYTHING and kept saying she was on PTO the week prior. My grand boss was right there so I had to be calm.

  14. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    I was struggling with work motivation and was going to post in the New Year’s open thread… and by the time I’d written out the explanation of what was going on, I’d figured out an action plan.

    The key thing I remembered is that I can be strongly motivated by competing against my own metrics. I figured out a way to make a part of my job quantifiable and then started tracking it. It’s already helping. Also, writing out “I’m scared to talk to my boss” helped me get over my fear of talking to my boss, so I’m going to do that next week.

    So thanks, everyone, for the great advice you telepathically gave me. :)

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      That right there is a big compliment to Alison. The whole point of an advice column is for people to learn–and you have internalized things well enough to start answering yourself.
      I’m not quite there, but I have had a couple of moments confronted with something unpleasant where my mind blanked and promptly rebooted with a big flashing “WWAS?” onscreen: What Would Alison Say? And I successfully channeled my inner Alison.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        I think that might be my New Year resolution for 2020 – channelling my inner Alison!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I think I got the idea best when I went through and binged on all the podcasts. Something about hearing tone of voice *really* does help.
          (Alison, if you happen to read this… if you have an occasional reason to do an occasional podcast, that would still be appreciated by me at least! Maybe tagteam with one of your podcasting blogger buddies to make it less onerous for you.)

      2. Killer Queen*

        This is so true. This advice column is so awesome. I am an HR Manager and a manager at my company came to me for advice on how to talk to a chronically absent employee (mostly to make sure she was following all labor laws in terms of pay and everything) and I realized the advice I was giving her was very Alison-esque. She is so awesome!

    3. Cartographical*

      My best friend and I do this all the time in Slack, it’s amazing how writing out what’s going on can clarify the steps you need to take — once you’ve learned how to problem-solve. I love that about this site, that it does teach great templates for deconstructing a problem and developing solutions. Congrats on internalizing it, would love to see your post-mortem on your own plans!

  15. Quaremie*

    Hi everyone, This is my first time posting here, but I love reading everyone’s questions and advice. I manage a team of about 25 people. I started three years ago with one person under me, and my team has grown rapidly.  Almost everyone is remote, spread across the country. Because some people are so far away, we do not have regular meetings on site. I’ve met them all in person, but for some of them, it was only once when they first started. We do have online meetings once a week, and we are in touch by emailon a daily basis. If there are any questions or problems, I work through them by email or phone calls. But for some of the high achievers, who create no waves and cause no problems and have few questions, we barely have reason to communicate one-on-one. I’ve spent the last six months reading throughall of these archives and I am committed to improving as a manager in 2020. For that reason, I have scheduled one on one meetings with everyone on my team over the next four weeks. I would like to discuss with them any questions, comments, concerns, ideas, goals, and career plans they would like to discuss. Some of them will take charge of the meeting and let me know all of the thoughts they have, but others will be quite quiet and I want to make sure that I maximize this time that I have scheduled with them. What do you think would be some good questions to have ready to ask them?   

    1. LilacLily*

      Not a question, but I recommend you prepare some scripts for each of your employees with things they recently did well (or super well!), and then congratulate them on a job well done. Also take a moment to think where you can see them improving overall and how they could go about it. That goes to your best employees too – I’d even say it is especially crucial you do that to your best employees – because when you’re a top employee it can be frustrating to sorta know you’re doing a good job but not being quite sure how exactly your job is good and how you can keep improving. And if you can’t find anything for them to work on, skills-wise, maybe think of giving them new assignments, or enroll them in training sessions they might be interested in that will further their career. Also, make sure to open the conversation for feedback to yourself as well; knowing what your team thinks of your work style can be helpful.

      I say this as an employee who had regular one-on-ones with my last boss and hated/dreaded them. He wouldn’t tell me what he thought about my work unless I asked him, and he always answered vaguely, like “oh yeah keep it up you’re doing great”, and never seemed open about receiving feedback himself. The one-on-ones were, mostly, a waste of time, and something he only started doing because HR made him do it.

      2. Quaremie*

        Thank you so much! It’s a great idea to be specific with their accomplishments and to go in with a plan. I’m definitely open to hearing feedback about my own style, but besides saying to them, “If there’s anything you want to let me know about how I can improve, I’m happy to hear it”, I’m not sure how best to let them know that I am open to their feedback and for them to know that I mean it. Thanks again!

        1. JJ Bittenbinder*

          Some people (myself included) have a very, very difficult time giving feedback, even when it’s invited and apparently welcomed like this. An additional question you could ask them is, “Is there anything that gets in your way of you being able to do your job, that I could help with resolving?” So that gives them the opportunity to both think about enterprise roadblocks (“I don’t have XYZ that I need to do my job”) and manager-specific ones (“I’d love it if you could ABC or stop doing EFG”)

          Might make it easier for them to articulate their feedback.

        3. Cartographical*

          This is just me, and taking into account my own issues, but… Ask for that feedback in advance of the meeting! (Personally, I’ve always appreciated a boss who treated 1:1 meetings as “how we can work together/how I can help you get your job done” strategy sessions.) Encourage them to tell you what they think you’re doing right as well: what should I keep doing or do more often?

          Give them lead time to gather their thoughts and then schedule a point at which they can tell you all this — maybe right after you first review what they’re doing well and acknowledge any accomplishments they have (you can also give them some idea of what your meeting agenda is in advance).

          It might give a whole different tenor to your discussion of their process and what needs improving to find out up front that something not up to par is being impacted by something you can control. It could make any corrective discussion more collaborative. Also, it means they’re not walking out of the meeting wondering what their concerns have done to your relationship but it’s similarly not putting them on the spot at the opening. I hate when I’ve had to end a 1:1 with a boss or professor with “tell me what I can improve” because I’ll be in a weird limbo waiting to see if I said something wrong and it’s made me so frazzled, it’s almost embarrassing to admit.

          1. Mockingjay*

            Came to say the same about advance notice. Also, during the meeting, let them know it’s okay to provide a response later, after they’ve mulled the question over.

      3. Bootstrap Paradox*

        These suggestions from @LilacLily are right on. These are important leadership steps to take, and will show that you care about your employees & their contributions.

    2. Daisy Avalin*

      I’d start the first one on one meeting (especially with your top performers) by saying something like ‘I realise that we haven’t spoken very much about your performance because [it’s very good/you clearly know what you’re doing/whatever is relevant to the person you’re speaking to], so I’d like to know how you think you’re going, and what you’d like from me as your manager to help.’ Then go into goals/etc depending on what they say.

    3. Fikly*

      Especially for things like long term goals and career plans, a lot of people might not have an answer off the top of their head! I’d definitely let them know ahead of time that you want to talk about this so they have time to think about it.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Agreed! And if your employer has established professional development programs/resources, it might be helpful to include links to those so that your employees can get some ideas.

      2. LKW*

        This! What do they hope to accomplish that year, what are their short term/long term career goals and how do you help them get there?
        What kinds of work interest them and is there flexibility in the team structure to give them the experience?
        What are their strengths and how can you promote those strengths on the team?
        What are areas of development and how can you partner them with someone who is stronger in that area and build their skills?

      3. Quinalla*

        Yes, give them a brief agenda of what you want to talk with them about and what you expect them to bring to the meeting so they can prepare. I would of course come with questions as well to draw out some of the quieter ones, basically prompting what is on your agenda. I’d go over accomplishments and areas of improvement for the last year, any goals they set or that you set together, goals/things to work on for next year, what they need from you and what roadblocks they have, etc.

    4. TimeTravelR*

      I love that you want to do this. May I recommend you continue regular contact, especially with your high performers? It makes them feel valued. You know you don’t have to monitor them, but you need to tell them that, and having a regular one on one to hear what’s going on with them is a great way to show it.

    5. Anon 2*

      I am one of those quiet, remote employees who has few questions for my manager. I find scheduled one on ones to be painful. He says they’re for me, but they’re really for him. If I have an issue or question, I communicate in the moment (email, chat, etc.). The scheduled time is always so awkward. Employees need different amounts of attention. If they don’t have a lot to say, don’t force it and end the meeting early.

      1. WineNot*

        I do agree here that they are sometimes extremely awkward if you don’t much to talk about. But at least you know the time is there if there is something that has been bothering you, etc.

        1. Quaremie*

          Thank you, both. I do know that for some people this would not necessarily be what they’re looking for. And I am fine with ending the meeting earlier if that’s what they want. I just feel bad that some people get a lot more of my time and attention than others, and I want to make sure that they know they have an opening if there’s anything they want to talk about. Our weekly meetings are usually pretty painful, because I feel like I’m talking into the void… Everyone’s got their phones muted and it’s hard to draw people out into a big conversation or debate when you’re not in the same room together. I think some people may not like speaking up in that environment so I want to make sure that they have a more private venue.

    6. WineNot*

      I love that you’re going to implement one-on-ones in 2020. I’ve always had a lot of open communication with managers in scheduled one-on-ones and outside of scheduled time, though I was never remote. In my current job, I feel like I have to most to talk about and one-on-ones are not a thing and my managers barely ask me how I’m doing.

      So anyway, I hope they go well with your employees! I would ask them to come prepared with questions, feedback, goals etc, so they have an idea of the kind of things you’re hoping to talk about. It might be helpful to have a monthly or every other month check in to keep the communication flowing! Good luck!

    7. Fabulous*

      I have a 1:1 every couple weeks with my manager (our team is also remote) and aside from any pressing questions or updates, a lot of the time we just chat about life or how work is going in general. We also do “bullets” that we email every two weeks as well so she has a breakdown of our accomplishments. I do think it’s helpful to have sort of a rubric for these calls though so we’re not just sitting there with nothing to talk about – I’m glad you’re thinking ahead like that! As for what to include, I agree with LilacLily about writing out scripts or bullet points for job-well-done items and strategizing on little things they can work to improve (such as if they write long emails, maybe work on action writing or something, or if they show a propensity for streamlining processes they could start learning six sigma) and in subsequent calls help them build a plan to accomplish that.

      1. Quaremie*

        Thank you! I definitely have a relationship with a few of them where we could sit and chat about our lives for half of that time. At the same time, with a few others, I know absolutely nothing about their personal lives. I don’t even know if they are married or have kids. I feel weird asking, since it is unrelated to the job, and we don’t have casual conversations that allow those topics to come up. But the longer that goes on, the weirder I feel about knowing absolutely nothing about their lives. But maybe these one on ones will open the door to more casual conversation.

        Thank you for your comments!

    8. CM*

      My suggestion is to frame the conversation with high achievers like this:
      – I’m really happy that you work here. I know I can count on you for excellent work and I really appreciate your [specific strengths].
      – I want to make sure you’re happy to work here too, so I want to hear about how you’re feeling about your work and whether there is anything that would make you happier.

      And then you can go into your questions — I’d suggest starting with specific questions rather than open-ended “what are your plans.” Here are some:
      – What are your favorite and least favorite things about your current role?
      – Out of your current activities, are there any that you particularly like? Any you dislike?
      – Are there other types of opportunities you’d like to have, but haven’t yet? Any skills you’d like to develop?
      – Are there any obstacles in your way, or anything that frustrates you that you would like to see changed?
      – Does our current communication work for you? Is there anything you’d prefer?

      After asking specific questions, then you can go into the more open-ended “any concerns, ideas, goals, comments, plans that you want to share with me?” as long as you have let them know in advance that you’ll be asking about this. Also, in that advance notice, I would frame this as giving them the opportunity to share with you, but not requiring that they do so — some people don’t really have anything to say and will get anxious about that. You could say something like, “The purpose of this meeting is for us to be able to talk one-on-one about how work is going for you generally, rather than our usual meetings which are more task-focused. This is not a performance review — instead, I’d like to hear your thoughts and ideas. Here are some questions that I’ll be asking: [list questions]. Please spend a few minutes thinking about these before we meet. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, ideas, goals, or career plans you would like to discuss, I’d like to hear about those too and will leave time for an open-ended discussion about anything you want to talk about.”

    9. Cartographical*

      This is just a footnote but as someone who has been a high performer/self-starter in some of my roles, I hated feeling invisible. I don’t mean not getting awards or anything like that, I mean the perpetual “compliment” of “Carto is so great bc I never have to think twice about them!”. In fact, I hated and still hate getting rewarded for doing things I am just supposed to do. Please invent a reward for “lowest blood pressure while being called a Nazi/profanity/etc.” or “fastest resolution of revenge porn/potential liability disasters/mandated reporting incidents” because that’s a real achievement.

      Yes, I got things done efficiently and correctly and my work was always excellent — but that didn’t mean I was always okay and didn’t need/want anything. It also made it feel that my position was entirely contingent on being an invisible asset and I never had a chance to ask for additional training or advancement unless I caught my boss between putting out the tire fires in the organization, which wasn’t often. I even had reviews cancelled/shortened bc “You’re good, right?”

      If you don’t give your rock stars space to not be rock stars, or use them to make up for the shortcomings of other employees, it sucks. No matter how great we are at the work, our kids get sick, our dog dies, our spouse cheats, our parents are bonkers, we get bored, we burn out, we get sick ourselves. No one should feel that not ever needing anything from their boss is a condition of their job, especially not when it’s provided to others. Even if we don’t need anything from you, it’s always nice to be asked and to get the same face time as everyone else.

    10. Mama Bear*

      Having been remote, either from my whole team or from my boss, this is huge and I’m glad you’re taking this step. It is easy to be forgotten when you’re not on-site and having routine meetings can be a good thing to ward off any surprises. I was once surprised with a mid-year that I didn’t know was going to be one and that was…unpleasant. I wish my boss had instead done what you plan to do. Further down in the comments was a suggestion to get to know them better as people – it’s hard from online, but try to read the room on that one. We had a guy who was VERY tight lipped about his life outside of the office and for whatever reason preferred to be a mystery. We let him be mysterious. Sometimes people compartmentalize and maybe that’s why you don’t know if they’re married or not.

      Good luck!

  16. easy apply is a curse*

    Does anyone have any tips and language for shearing away from emphasizing admin tasks and duties when I want to play up my organizational ability, can-do spirit of being able to use google and ability to handle a giant and diverse flood of tasks in my resume and cover letters?

    The thing I keep circling back to is that a big part of my (comms) job is internal events, which involve a ton of admin leg and keyboard work, and when I get loaned out even to big projects it’s for similar functions. My admin / pa work is only supposed to be 10% of my current job, but when I tote it up it looks like the majority of work. Any help and job search encouragement would be great. I’m looking to go into more external comms focused stuff, or basically anything where I spend more time writing, even if it is writing emails for hr to send out.

    1. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t highlight your ability to figure things out so much as the work you were hired to do. Can you also flag for your bosses that you’d like more A and B?

      1. easy apply is a curse*

        we’re a vanishingly tiny team and my boss is extremely helpless, besides having personal crisis after personal crisis. they couldn’t hire me full time before, and certainly not now with a global hiring freeze. i don’t get support and sometimes i’m not even sure my boss remembers i’m on contract (memorably boss said i get a bonus (in fte, up to 4 months extra) and i… don’t…)

        i get stuck on the ‘highlight accomplishments’- so many of my accomplishments are based on pulling off something medium with one person- ie myself.

    2. Katniss Evergreen*

      If you can say something to the effect of “I’ve got a knack for being the person behind the curtain, sending communications and making things happen while wearing many hats” in your cover letter, I feel like that does it. I would try to put numbers to any of that that you can for your resume and pick a particular example for your letter; for your last event, how many vendors/customers/colleagues did you coordinate with to get things done? Can you convert that into an average for the majority of internal events you work on?

      Sorry if I’m missing the mark here, but you so have my sympathies on trying to emphasize non-admin work when you have a different focus.

      1. easy apply is a curse*

        that’s good framing, i’ve been emphasizing the regional nature of my role to show that i pull a lot of strings to get things done, but i wonder if it comes across just how much any success i’ve had is down to having learnt how to push people into place to get cooperation.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Alison’s suggests picking the accomplishments you WANT to emphasize. You don’t have to put any events accomplishments on your resume if you don’t want to be selected for it.
      I’d suggest including at least one of them simply because your references might think of your admin/pa work first. Find a way to work in the writing tasks even into this item so you make it clear that yep you’re good at two things, even if you’re looking for a job focusing on one of those things.
      Admin/advents oriented: “Planned and ran the week-long International Llama Lover’s Convention. Received a 4.5/5 approval rating from 200 attendees.”
      The part you love: “Planned publicity campaign. Wrote all convention handouts. Worked with contracted graphic designer on posters.”
      And your other achievements would focus on the 20% of your current job that you want to turn into 80% of your next job.
      It’s also worth talking to your manager in a one-on-one to make sure she knows you’d rather change that percentage on its head. That gives her a chance to try and shuffle workload — maybe simply say someone else’s name when she’s asked for help from another department for PA work. You don’t have to say you’re job hunting — just let her know it’s what you want to be focusing on. Not even managers are telepathic, and if we’re extremely professional about doing the unpleasant tasks assigned, only our words will let our managers know we find the tasks unpleasant.

  17. Sherm*

    Bouncing back from getting fired: No, I didn’t get fired, and I don’t appear to be in danger, but I still worry. I was pleasantly surprised to see that many updates were along the lines of “I got fired but found a new job.” I would have thought that getting fired would generally put you behind many of the applicants who weren’t. If you were fired and recovered without too much hardship, how did you do it? Did it come up in the interview? If so, what did you say? Thanks in advance.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Never fired but I’ll say I’ve never ever been asked if I’ve been fired before. So it doesn’t always come up for starters.

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I’ve only ever been fired from tending bar. (A few times I escaped a job just ahead of the axe… but the “ahead” part is what’s important there.) It never came up in an interview.

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      I’ve never been officially fired but in the time between finishing uni and getting a full time job (which was initially retail for several years – it was 2012), I worked on a market stall and was paid cash-in-hand. This only worked out for a couple months and the stall-owner decided he didn’t want me anymore. Anyway, in this case I just left it off my CV.

      I’ve not ever been directly asked if I’ve ever been fired either. So I guess it would mainly cause a problem for someone who was fired from a company they worked at quite long term as it’s harder to just leave that off your work history. However, on the other hand, having worked somewhere long term increases the chances they may have mad more than one line manager in their time there, and/or know more people who might be able to give them a reference.

      I guess if someone was an overall weak performer and stayed somewhere for years and years until they finally got fired – that’s pretty hard to bounce back from! But if it’s either a short stay, or a long-term job where the issues that led up to being fired are more recent/immediate, then I suppose a person will still have colleagues/managers willing to vouch for their work in a job search.

    4. Asenath*

      Never fired, exactly, but if I hadn’t resigned I probably would have been – looking back, it was all terribly painful, but they did try to, um, ease me out, when it became obvious I wasn’t improving, rather than actually firing me. I was worried about this because although I eventually had some references from short-term contracts, that was obviously the job I held longest and the one that paid best, and an obvious source of references. So why did I leave, especially without something to go to? I decided on variations of “I’d been llama farming for some time and decided I wanted a change in direction. That’s why I (fill in “started a part-time education program”, “looked for a way to get into something new by taking contracts in alpaca herding” or whatever seems most relevant to the job I’m applying for). It worked for me. It probably helped that Former Job was notorious for being stressful, and for having people leave for different fields.

      1. Quill*

        Same deal, my stint at Pig Lab from Hell was so far my only salaried position and also my longest stay. However, sometimes I briefly go into “startups with no room for growth or increased pay,” or “I left for an opportunity that fell through,” (the opportunity: to never have to deal with my awful boss again! the fall through: needing to make some money even though I was living with my parents at the time,) if asked, since my boss talked me into writing it off as a resignation… and the unemployment people were incredibly nice about the situation when I applied for unemployment.

        Sometimes I’ll just smile and tell them that I wanted to get out of biosamples, if the job is sufficiently far removed from that field. And I did! I never want to take pork skin samples again!

        I guess if I was ever asked directly if I’d ever been fired, the truthful answer would be “kind of” considering the forced resignation thing.

    5. Thankful for AAM*

      I just came here to say, whatever you do, don’t lie! No one, I mean no one, gets fired from our job in a non profit, municipality run org. EXCEPT the person who lied when directly asked if they had ever been fired and they later found out they had been fired.

        1. Adric*

          Flat out lying on your resume, application or in an interview, is generally considered a pretty big strike against your integrity.

          Hiring is very trust based if you think about it. Very seldom does anyone really go out of their way to verify your application info. They might check your references, but all the information on your references came from you.

          In general there’s a lot of scope for shenanigans and if you take advantage of that, it’s looks really bad.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, I’d agree. It’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up. Once I find out you’ve lied about this big thing, I no longer can believe anything you’ve said to me.

            And I understand the desperate lie of somebody who needs a job and wouldn’t lie about anything else; I’m not saying that this automatically means “if you lie about this, you’ve lied about everything.” The problem is that I can’t as a manager *tell* whether this is the only big thing you’ve lied about or not, and that I can’t trust you as I need to as a result.

        2. Artemesia*

          Irrelevant question. Falsifying your resume is a fireable offence. I know someone who claimed two batchelors degrees and was fired for lying although he had a double major and considered that two degrees. And yes I think the firing was ridiculous but it was in a high visibility role in a high visibility field. It had nothing to do with his competence in the job at all.

          1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

            My university used to issue two physical diplomas to students who participated in certain dual-major programs.

          2. Just Another Manic Millie*

            I had a double major. My diploma shows that I had a double major. But I never in a million years would have said that I had two bachelor degrees.

            1. The New Wanderer*

              Same. The qualifications for receiving two degrees are different (involving more credits) than for getting a double major.

          3. Another JD*

            My double degree was 150 credits v. 120 for one degree with a double major. They are definitely different.

            1. NotAnotherManager!*

              Mine was the same +30 credit requirement, and I received two diplomas at graduation.

          4. WellRed*

            My question is not irrelevant. Thank you everyone else for your replies. Makes sense why now.

    6. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve never been directly asked if I got fired, and the place that fired me agreed to call it a layoff anyway, but also, I went straight to grad school after getting fired (it was already my plan, just shifted the timing), so my resume all makes sense. When people ask me to walk through my resume in an interview, I just say, “I worked there, then I went to grad school, then I went to this other place…” I don’t lie, but I don’t get into it.

    7. WellRed*

      I’ve never been asked about it. It’s not ideal to not be in a current job, but they don’t brand your forehead as you’re cleaning out your desk. The interviewer presumably needs to fill a position, you are looking for a position to fill.

    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      Ages ago, I left a position from which I almost certainly would have been fired if I hadn’t quit. The environment was toxic and causing me so much anxiety that I kept screwing things up and was unable to do a good job. Some things I think helped me in the end:
      1. I was very professional about my exit from my toxic job, giving plenty of notice and saying things like “I’m grateful for the opportunities I’ve been given while working here.”
      2. While I was quite young and this had been my first non-temp role, I had previous temp experience where I got a lot of praise for the work I did, so I was able to put bosses besides my current one as references.
      3. I didn’t have another job lined up when I left, but went back to good old temping again. This gave me yet MORE experience where (surprise surprise) with no toxic manager in place, I did very well. More good references, and even more recent than Toxic Manager.
      4. When I found myself in a long-term temp role that I really enjoyed, I asked my manager if there was a chance of it going permanent. She said that unfortunately, she had decided to leave the organization for another job–but she gave me a heads-up about an open position in another office of the same department that she thought would be good for me, and offered to give me a reference. That was what clinched it, I think.
      5. I did NOT list Toxic Manager as a reference. When asked why, I said straight out that I felt that my work at that company was not up to my usual par, and that it was an environment where I found it very hard to do my best. I said that my work at all my other positions was more indicative of my abilities, and my references from those positions backed me up on that. The fact that one of those references was from a colleague within the organization helped a lot, I think.

      So, overall: make sure you have GOOD work experiences and people who can attest to your abilities. Be honest. Be professional. No one ever asked me in the interviews if I had ever been fired (I hadn’t) or put on a PIP (I had). They hired me even without talking to Toxic Manager, and I’ve been here for over a decade now with several promotions, so…yeah, it can really work out.

      1. Quill*

        I don’t use Toxic Boss as a reference (and when people ask about confirming employment I usually tell them that he won’t ever get around to it [he won’t] but I have W2s) but my reviews for the last 2 jobs, aka the ones where I was finally on anxiety meds, have been pretty glowing.

    9. LadyByTheLake*

      Depends on why you got let go. First, no one has to know that you were fired, and if it does come up somehow, it can usually phrase it in a way that it doesn’t matter — I’ve been let go a few times but it was never a big deal. Once it was “I was hired to do llama grooming but the job changed to teapot painting, which is not my skill set.” Or “It wasn’t a good fit as I was a specialist and that company preferred that everyone be generalists” (this really happened). In other words, unless the firing was due to something really bad, there’s usually a way to frame it as a bad fit and the new job as a better fit.

    10. ThatGirl*

      So, I was fired in fall 2007. And it was over a mistake that was ultimately my responsibility. I still feel like I got thrown under the bus, but I understand why.

      I didn’t interview well for awhile – I didn’t have AAM to help me figure out what to say and every time the “why you left your last job” question came up it was awkward, even if I manage to avoid saying I’d been fired.

      I kinda lucked out in that my next real job, they didn’t ask me much about the one I’d been fired from; it was a contractor position and they knew if I turned out to be lousy they could get rid of me quickly. Instead I flourished there and was at that company for 9 years.

      But anyway. You don’t necessarily have to disclose that you’ve been fired. As others have said, it doesn’t often get directly asked. A friend of mine who’s in employment law told me that while I should not ever lie, I could spin it in whatever way I chose. Why did I leave that job? Well, newspapers are dying a slow death (true) and it just wasn’t the right fit for me anymore (true). Now, if they asked if I resigned or was terminated, that I had to answer directly. And I did have answers ready – to accept responsibility and said I’d learned from my mistakes, but also allude to the fact that it wasn’t entirely my fault without badmouthing that company. It takes practice and I had to say it out loud a lot to myself to get it to feel comfortable.

    11. Goldfinch*

      The only time I was asked if I was “fired” or “terminated for cause” was in a security check for a job in public education. Never for a corporate job.

    12. bassclefchick*

      Unfortunately, I’ve been fired more than once. One was 100% my fault (took a job in a panic because I had just been fired and got fired from new job in 6 months. Don’t do that.) The others? Both sides had fault. What I can say is, don’t lie. Some places ask up front in their online materials if you’ve been fired. And of those, SOME places will automatically reject you if you respond “yes”. Why? Not sure. I would think they would want someone who is honest about it over someone who will lie just to get through the online system. Now, I’m at a job I like and it’s been over 2 years. I just had to get out of my own head. I just handled it in the interviews by saying I wasn’t the right fit and I realized my mistakes and learned from them.

    13. Quill*

      I got fired once. The next job I got after didn’t ask, the one after that didn’t ask… current job didn’t ask “have you ever been fired?” they asked “Why did you leave company x?” and I truthfully answered that my position had changed on me 4 times in 2 years and it was a bad fit without a lot of training.

      (I mean. At the point I got fired a pork themed re-enactment of the Cod resignation was a possibility, but at least I got unemployment when I got fired over not answering my phone immediately about a shipping mistake I made because I never got proper training on a day I was off work…)

      Some day I will be able to comfortably one up a coworker with “yeah, I got fired once from a place that tried to run a biosample lab with sinks powered by sump pumps and didn’t have vent hoods for volatile chemicals, I think I can handle this minor equipment malfunction.”

      (The sump pumps DID overflow with pork biosample bits. This occurred over 6 months before I was fired. For some reason I stayed.)

    14. Sleepy*

      My husband was basically fired, though it was technically an angry layoff so he didn’t have to tell anyone. (However, a lot of people suspected it when he couldn’t give his former boss as a reference.) It sucked and he was set back in his career, his salary, etc. However, he needed to get out of Old Job and five years later he’s doing great. Plus he learned something I think he needed to learn about keeping your boss happy even if you don’t agree with them.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        I’m sorry your husband (and you!) had to go through that. And good point about the lesson: Unfortunately sometimes we have to personally please our bosses, not just do the job well.

        Many if not most layoffs are really firings. Assuming for the sake of argument that when a company says they had to lose, say, 10% of its workforce they really did…I assure you they did not pick names out of a hat until they got to 10%.

        Certain layoffs due to the company, a particular division or a particular location closing or a contract being cancelled/completed — or strict procedures based on predetermined criteria (generally seniority “last hired first fired”) — are one thing. (Even then, except for the company itself going belly-up you need to prepare to explain why they didn’t find a new spot for you. The above-mentioned strict procedures commonly also include provisions for “bumping” other works with less seniority, at lower levels, etc.)

        But otherwise, people — likely including your immediate boss — decided that you had to go:

        https://hbr.org/2013/10/keep-your-name-off-that-layoff-list

        PS: A National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) study showed that employers understand very well the difference between types of layoffs. People selectively laid off had longer job searches culminating in lower-paying new jobs.

        (And without correcting for the fact that some non-selective layoffs were plant closings, each of whose workers suddenly had to compete with many others for now much fewer job openings.)

        https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3442782/Katz_LayoffsLemons.pdf

    15. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Got kinda fired in kind of a mutual “this isn’t working” thing. I wasn’t sorry to see that job go – it was quite toxic – but I was definitely worried about the ramifications of getting fired. I was assured on my way out that when questioned, the company will only verify employment and nothing else. So, I rolled the dice and have never stated I was fired. The company has been true to their word and has even stated that rehire is dependent on circumstances when asked, so it’s never come back to bite me. That job was so long ago now that it won’t need to be listed on background checks.

      I was a student at the time, so I just said I left because the position no longer worked with my schedule. I found an internship a few months later that led to a full-time offer. It’s never held me back.

    16. Zephy*

      The only job I’ve been fired from is one that I can now happily leave off my resume (very short stint, let go during probation period for poor culture fit), but I guess maybe if I take another run at a government job it would have to come up. In that case, just what I said above seems sufficient – I was let go within the probation period because it was a poor fit.

    17. Blueberry*

      I was fired because of a mistake I made. Here, I will say that quite a few people at that job had it out for me to begin with, including my boss’s #2, and I could have been cut some slack and wasn’t. But I never said that in my interviews or to my current coworkers.

      After reading extensively on AAM, and with some help from people in my life, I turned the reason I was fired into a mildly funny story of a learning experience. I don’t know if it’s the region where I live, but in most interviews I was asked if I’d been fired, and I told the story, emphasizing what I did to learn from and not repeat the mistake, and my understanding of its seriousness, but in an amusing way. For the jobs I was not offered I don’t think the firing was why, and eventually I was offered a job and happily took it.

    18. Adlib*

      I’ve been fired before. (Still don’t know exactly why – they never said. After 5 years, “it’s not working out”.) Anyway, the next job I got asked me why I left, and I told them what happened, but that I learned from it (in more detail than that). I think it helped that I was entering an industry that doesn’t really care about that anyway for one reason or another. I’ve always been asked why I’m leaving or have left a previous job.

    19. AJK*

      I’ve done it twice. It was not fun. The second time I was so sure I’d never find another job I ended up seeing a therapist for a few weeks. I cried after I went to my first interview after the firing because, even though I hadn’t put my previous boss as a reference, the hiring manager knew him and asked if she could call him, and I didn’t feel like I could say no. I went home and cried (and went to my next therapy appointment and cried) and a week later I got the call telling me I got the job. I don’t know what previous boss said – although I knew at the time that it wasn’t his choice to let me go, I still figured he’d give me a negative reference – but it can’t have been that bad, I guess!
      The first time I was similarly anxious and afraid – I’d been fired after four years at my job. I came up with an answer to the “why did you leave” question that was truthful but not “I got fired,” I said the skills required for the job had changed over the years and my skills were no longer a good fit for the position. I also had decent references from jobs before that, but the 1st job after the firing was a temp admin assistant earning barely more than minimum wage so I think they were just happy to get someone. Within a month I was given a raise and within four months I’d been promoted so it all worked out for the best, and after that I never had to bring it up again.
      But I hate the stigma that goes along with being fired, and I hate that I can’t say no to that question anymore. The reason I went to therapy after the second time was because I was considering suicide and I scared myself badly enough to go get help. Both firings were related to “fit” reasons and almost certainly connected to my ADHD – I was never even put on any sort of PIP and I got unemployment both times because I hadn’t committed any kind of employment misconduct, so perhaps that helped. But it was also terribly demoralizing because I’d worked really hard at both jobs – the second one especially, I don’t think I’ve ever worked that hard in my life, and for that to happen anyway… but each I was back to work within about a month. But I’d never want to repeat it, and I wish the stigma surrounding “being fired” wasn’t as bad as it is, because I was getting ready to make plans to jump off of a bridge and I mean that literally, that’s why I ended up calling the mental health crisis line and getting help through a therapist. Even now, I’m not over either experience and I’ve been to therapy off and on ever since, and my work-related anxiety can shoot through the roof at times. I was very lucky to have “bounced back” as well as I did but it was brutal.

    20. we're basically gods*

      My dad was fired once. He’d admittedly already given his notice with a new job lined up, and so he had given up on subtlety with his frustrations with the job he was leaving. (Dad’s boss had hired his own son to work IT, except the son was completely incompetent and also refused to accept any mentoring– I’ve worked with my dad in a batch of interns before, and he’s not the sort to just leave you hanging if he thinks he can help, whether you’re an intern or a fellow senior engineer).
      I think it worked out pretty well for him because if someone asked about the job, he could honestly explain why he was fired, which wasn’t due to any failure of performance on his part.
      (I was in high school at the time, and he was delighted when he came to pick me up after theater. It was his first time being fired, and it was the Wednesday of his last week of work, so he effectively wound up with a lovely long weekend.)

    21. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      How do you suggest handling it if the firing came mainly from a personality conflict with your boss or one or more of your co-workers?

      Bonus question: What if, even after discussing the situation with professionals (like career counselors and mentors) you decide that the others were mostly or totally in the wrong? Say your boss or peers did something over the top, you stood up for yourself professionally and got punished with a pink slip. What, if anything, can you say you learned from the experience and how would you describe the situation?

      1. Close Bracket*

        I was very honest in an interview once about developing conflicts with a new boss. I didn’t frame it as “they were definitely wrong” (though they were–it was a ridiculously petty power grab that could have been handled in a way that got both of us what we wanted). The person I was talking to was really understanding and was basically like, “we’ve all been there.” That was a crap shoot, though, you never know who you are talking to or what their take is going to be. And I didn’t get an offer, which could have been for any reason, but I can’t prove that my candor wasn’t the deciding factor.

        If you can state what the disagreement was about objectively and frame it as a disagreement over direction or a change in your job duties or basically anything other than a personality conflict, try that. So I could have said something like, “I was leading the llama grooming function, which was intended to be a two year role, at most, with a gradual phase out into other duties. Then my management changed; the new manager wanted an all new team and hired a new head llama groomer to replace me without defining new duties for me. I found new duties on my own, but it wasn’t technical work, and I’m really looking for technical work.”

    22. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I was fired from a job after I had been there for eight weeks (before I finished the three-month probation period). The employee handbook said that since I was fired before my probation was finished, I was ineligible for rehire by any of the company’s branch offices, and the branch manager made it a point to tell me that if anyone calling for a reference would be told that I had been fired and was ineligible for rehire. I solved the problem by not listing that job on my resume.

      Many years later, when filling out a job application for the FDIC, I came across the question “Did you quit a job to avoid being fired in the past ten years?” This shook me up very badly, because almost twelve years prior, I had quit a job when I found out that the company had placed a help wanted ad in the newspaper for my job. However, as I said, the FDIC was asking only about the past ten years, so I had no problem writing “no.” But I was so happy that the interviewer hadn’t asked me that, because the question upset me very much, and I’m sure that if I had said no, the interviewer would have been certain that I was lying. And I know that I would have flunked a lie-detector test if I had been asked that.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        For what it’s worth, my understanding of the “did you quit to avoid being fired” question is more about cases where you’re outright told you’re going to be let go one way or another, and you take the option to resign vs being fired. In your case you may have suspected they wanted to replace you, but since nobody actually said anything about it to you it’s no different than leaving a job for any other reason.

    23. Leela*

      I’ve been fired but a huge part of it was that there were numerous things I was asked to do that were unethical/illegal. I said no multiple times and finally they fired from me. The way I say this in interviews (and I’m lucky; this wasn’t long enough to be on my resume so I’m not ratting anyone out in a way that I feel would worry interviewers if it was say, my last job which lasted 10 years) is “I was asked to do several things that I wasn’t comfortable with and let them know, they’d asked me a few times and I came back with my case and finally we agreed that it wasn’t a good fit” and I let them probe into that if they want (they usually do, at that point I feel I’ve been coy enough that I can professionally touch on some of the things without giving too many details).

      If anyone’s curious, here’s some things I was either told to do and said no or forced to do while a supervisor stood over me:
      -Prioritize candidates with white-sounding names and discard those with other names so there was less risk of calling someone who needed a visa
      -Call people we wanted to interview, but hadn’t applied to us, at 6 in the morning so we’d be sure to catch them first thing. Also stay late and call them at 10 PM to catch them at home.
      -Give up the work e-mails of friends I was close to from my last job to senior recruiters so they could reach out to them and go “Hey, I know Leela! Soooooooo here are some great candidates you should take a look at and pay us for finding…”
      -Found an AWESOME candidate for a role we were hiring for, but he didn’t apply, wasn’t looking, and wouldn’t return our calls. My supervisor made me, on the spot, use his personal website info track down his wife (she had a website that he linked to) and try to get her to get him to contact us for opportunities. He was notably furious and called in to chew us out; I was blamed for not roping him in on that call
      -Lie to a candidate about what the tech test was (we told him it was our own personal tech test that we used, I told him that because I didn’t know at the time that it was a lie, but it turns out it was X company’s test and he’d already taken it because he was already in interview stages with them. He wrote us back right after to be like “so I did the test but I already knew all the answers because I took this test two days ago. Is this for X company?”
      -discard any candidates who appeared to be over 25 for Major Online Retailer because they tended to hire younger. I see the sense in this one actually because honestly they did tend to hire more younger people, but this would be like “oh she doesn’t list her graduation year so she’s probably fifty so don’t even reach out”
      -Lie to candidates about whether jobs were full time or contract, lie to candidates about whether a contract had the potential to become fulltime (we were always told to say yes because “who knows, they might!”, lie to companies about whether a candidate they were going to interview was interested in full time or part time work
      -Convince candidates, using extremely vague and misleading language, that they were a perfect fit for a given job when the truth is they were just close enough to probably get hired and the company would get some quick cash as a recruiter’s fee
      -go onto glassdoor and leave a super positive review…on my FIRST DAY. It was heavily hinted I should not disclose that it was my first day, nor that I was asked to write this

    24. Ladybugger*

      I got fired once and I just never offered that information in my job search – it helped that I’d only been there 2.5 months so it wasn’t like I had to account for a huge gap. If it’s a short stay, treat it the same as any other short stay and leave it off your resume altogether. No one ever asked. (It would have been a tricky one to explain because ‘everything about this place was absolutely bonkers from day one and this firing was just another crazeballs thing’ is not really an answer you can give in an interview.)

    25. DrRat*

      So – I never expected that I would get fired multiple times in my life, plus living through some layoffs. But you know what? It’s not the end of the world! As other commenters have noted, it is actually fairly rare these days that someone asks in person or an application asks if you have ever been fired. (And unless it’s for egregious conduct, most companies will now call it a layoff, not fired for cause.) Most question “why you left your last job” and expect some spin. “I was looking for zig, and the company was moving in zag direction” or “there was no opportunity to move up within the company.” The biggest red flag they are looking for is people dumb enough to trash talk their old company. Even if asked if I was ever fired, I could easily say, “Well, when I was in college, I was waiting tables at a restaurant, and one day they just told me I was fired. The restaurant actually went under shortly after that.” And no one ever asked, “Oh, well, other than that, were you ever fired?” My biggest career black mark shows up on Google, but it’s from 20 years ago so now you have to do an intensive search to find it. I lived, I learned, I moved to a new field. I think the biggest trouble people have bouncing back is when they get fired for doing something spectacularly stupid (you know, like bankers dressing up as ISIS and holding a mock execution) and it’s going to be the first thing people see on Google forever. So – watch your back with social media, and even if you get fired, you’ll survive!

  18. Mkt*

    How to broach conversation with my interim manager (aka grandboss) that I’m burned out in my role, need a change and would like to apply to other internal departments? — It’s company policy that I need current manager’s blessing before even applying on any vacancy otherwise it looks a lot worse for me.

    I am also applying to jobs at other companies, but would prefer to stay at current, if possible. I’ve been here +13 years and have good vacation, benefits, etc plus I’ve built up internal contacts and currency I’d rather not completely lose.

    Truth is- I don’t want to keep reporting to grandboss because I don’t respect the way they’ve handled this department and how they clearly play favorites amongst direct reports. But since I can’t quite say that, what should I say instead?

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Is there some reason you can’t say “I’m burned out in my role, need a change and would like to apply to other internal departments”? That seems totally legit to me.

      1. Lisa*

        Agree. ‘I want a change and want to try new things’ is a valid reason to look for a nee job. If there is a specific dept that interests you, you can say you have become interested in what they do.

        1. Mid*

          Yup. That’s my suggestion. “I’m looking for a new challenge/to expand X skill with Y projects on Z team/explore a new direction”

          1. WantonSeedStitch*

            This, especially. I think that if you can have specifics about what you want to do/what kinds of roles or departments are interesting to you, it sounds more like “I’m running TO something” than “I’m running AWAY FROM something.”

      3. Tyche*

        I think it’s better not talking about being burned out, because it can open some difficult questions from the boss and maybe some criticism (even if unjustified).
        It would be better to open with your need for a change or a challenge and your desire to broaden your abilities.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I wouldn’t mention anything about the burnout either because if grandboss decides to be petty, he can torpedo your chance(s) for escape to an internal department by telling the hiring manager(s) that you get easily overwhelmed, can’t handle stress, and/or just aren’t very good at your job/wouldn’t be good at their role. Stick to the looking for new challenges bit since you’ve been there 13 years, which makes that explanation actually plausible.