open thread – September 10-11, 2021

by Alison Green on September 10, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,204 comments }

{ 1,204 comments… read them below }

  1. SuccessFail*

    Should I give two or three weeks notice when resigning? Should I give notice Friday afternoon or Monday morning?
    Background:
    Suffering from stress related illness (depression, anxiety flare up, hair falling out, extreme fatigue, etc.) worsened by a toxic workplace. Took one month of FMLA back in April, have back at work (remote) since May. I am also in a remote graduate program.
    I have a really good relationship with my immediate supervisor but have a challenging relationship with the leadership at the level above her. My fear is that the more notice I give, that either I would get pushed out early, or have more projects dumped on my plate. However, giving more notice would allow my boss more time to close out and transfer my work.
    I tried to resign once in the spring, but my boss convinced me to take FMLA and stay on. I have been putting off resigning because I really like my boss, my job, and my immediate team, but both my health and performance and my graduate program have been suffering with my health issues. And my work performance is also not so great. I feel like I should be able to do it all, but I really cant and that is frustrating and humbling.
    Any advice or feedback appreciated!

    1. another Hero*

      if they put more projects on your plate, don’t work extra. what are they going to do, fire you? just do what you can.

      it doesn’t matter whether you resign on a Friday or a Monday; if you’re in the US, two weeks is fine.

      1. MissBaudelaire*

        This was what I thought. So what if they pile on the projects? Time isn’t going to bend just for that. Do what you can do in your allotted time. If it isn’t finished, just say that’s going to have to be a duty for a colleague or your replacement. It isn’t your problem, OP.

        As far as the getting pushed out early–there’s really no preventing that. They all want two weeks but get baffled when people leave without giving it, because they push people out before the end date.

      2. Foxy Hedgehog*

        Seconded, do it today and not Monday. Just say something along the lines of “today is September 10, two weeks from today, September 24, will be my last day.”

        Best wishes & congratulations on getting away from a toxic workplace!

    3. StellaBella*

      As a person who once had a burnout, your health is the most important thing. Give two weeks, set firm boundaries on handover, do not do extra work, and get a good ref letter from nice boss. Move on. Rest, care for yourself too. Good luck.

      1. foolofgrace*

        I don’t know about a reference letter, but do get from him the assurance that he will be a good reference for you. Once, my boss left something really nice on LinkedIn.

    4. Been there*

      Two is typical. For Friday or Monday, it doesn’t matter. I’ve been in a position similar to yours and it was easiest just to say it and not back down.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        Resign today (unless you want to work 3 more weeks in which case resign next Friday).
        If you resign on a Friday, you can spend your weekend being relieved that in 2 more weeks you are out of there. If you wait till Monday to resign, you will spend the weekend worrying about resigning. Just do it – and move on. Good luck!

    5. Teapot Repair Technician*

      Two weeks.

      If you’re in the US, that is the standard, and all competent bosses are prepared to “close out and transfer” any employee’s work in that timeframe.

      Especially your boss who shouldn’t be the least bit surprised by your resignation given your previous attempted resignation.

    6. Properlike*

      Don’t sacrifice your health for your boss’s convenience, no matter how much you like her or how good a person she is. You’re not supposed to do it all! You will feel so much better once you’ve informed them of your decision and *stuck with it.* If you worry about being able to, imagine you are talking on behalf of your best friend who’s in your situation. If your best friend’s health were on the line, you would feel comfortable saying “no more.”

    7. Love WFH*

      Two weeks. Any day you like.
      I gave three weeks once, and by the third week I was so over it! It seemed to last forever.

      1. Ama*

        I had to give four weeks once because it was the requirement to get your vacation paid out and I had a LOT of unused vacation so I wasn’t giving that up. I really hope I never have to do that again, especially since it meant I didn’t get to take any time off between jobs (new job needed my help with a major event the second week after I started and actually sped up my offer so I could give the four weeks and still start by the date they needed).

        They actually treated me pretty well on the way out the door, but it was just so awkward to still be there midway through week three when I’d basically either wrapped up or handed off my longer term projects and could only do tasks that would be finished before my last day.

    8. Mr. Tyzik*

      I second the advice to do it today. Short and sweet, no explanations. You can’t control the reaction but you can’t let that detract you from doing what you need to do.

      I urge you to have a conversation with your immediate supervisor and let her know.

      I’ve been in your shoes. It put me in the hospital and I’m still recovering my health years later. Do what you need to do for you.

    9. Zorak*

      I was in a similar situation with my last job – I actually tried to quit 2 previous times and both times they talked me into staying. I say go ahead and put in 2 weeks notice today. Personally, I kept delaying putting in my notice because I was so stressed about them trying to convince me to stay again, and worried that maybe quitting was a terrible idea that would ruin my life. Turns out, I really wish I had quit earlier! Toxic workplaces can really mess you up, and I’ve been sooo much happier since I quit. Good luck, and I hope you’re able to get the rest you need to recuperate!

    10. Purple Cat*

      2 weeks and move on.
      As for Friday or Monday, whichever will generate LESS stress and disruption for YOU. It makes no difference to the company’s operations and moving forward plan. Personally, I would do EOD Friday, so I could drop the news and bounce for the weekend. But if that might open you up to a barrage of negative feedback over the weekend, then wait until Monday morning.

    11. JT*

      I would personally do it on a Monday. Since you like your boss, doing it on a Friday might just ruin their weekend with stress – and you’ll still be worrying about it, what thoughts/decisions might be happening, etc. On a Monday, it’s work stress happening during work time, and you’ll be easier to get in touch with if there are any questions to be answered while they’re making decisions about what the next two weeks will look like.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        Do it today! This is a normal and expected thing for bosses to deal with – don’t worry about ruining their weekend. OP, it will probably stress YOU out the more you wait so you may as well resign now.

        Any decisions the boss wants to make about how the next two weeks will go that also need your input can wait until Monday.

    12. Haha Lala*

      Give your notice on a Friday, so you can enjoy the weekend without dreading Monday even more.
      But before you give your notice, be prepared to for that to be your last– in case they would rather you be gone than work the full two weeks. That’s easier if you’re remote, but still make sure to clean up your computer, copy any files, delete/move any persona files, etc.

    13. HR Exec Popping In*

      You need to take care of yourself and your health. And you manager will understand that. Give two weeks notice as soon as you can assuming that will not increase your stress.

    14. Kiwiapple*

      I gave 7 weeks notice (or standard is 4 weeks) to help with the transition and my boss has still not advertised the role even though it is all approved etc by HR. Give the 2 weeks and don’t look back!

      1. allathian*

        I hope you’ve told your boss that you won’t be available to help with the transition after you leave? Document, document.

    15. Quinalla*

      Yup give 2 weeks as soon as possible if you are in the US that is so standard no one will bat an eye, doesn’t matter what day.

    16. First Time Asking for a Raise*

      I personally did it as soon as I had signed paperwork, pretty sure it was a Wednesday. I worked two weeks, ending on a Wed, and had a long weekend before I started the next Monday. 2 weeks is 2 weeks. :shrug:

  2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    My husband is ready to start looking for new jobs, and I’m not sure how he should frame his interest in moving on.

    Here’s what happened: he’s been working at a university for over two years, and quite a while ago made a proposal to his boss that they could consolidate three positions into his one position, at a higher title and pay. The university is obviously in a budget crunch so they did decide to move forward with that change as part of a huge department reorg. However, the way they went about it was awful: they expected him to take on triple the work for an extra $1 per hour and no title change, they changed his boss without warning to anyone involved, and they tried to force his hand to agree to the new position the day before he left on vacation (actually, they made all the staff changes in one day and expected everyone to just agree with no negotiation or conversation). Everyone in the department is demotivated as a result, not to mention the stress from the constant supply and staffing issues plaguing many industries right now. In short, everything is a mess and everyone is stressed and unhappy.

    He’s been in this role for a few months and it’s increasingly clear this job needs to be paid 25-50% higher than what he’s making (which is what we expected based on market research for comparable roles). He’s done with the stress and ready to start looking for something that pays more in line with the market in our HCOL area. I think his skills and experience will be very attractive to new employers, but how should he answer the question “why are you looking to move on”? His resume will show that he’s just a few months into a promotion, but I don’t think it’s smart to cite the stress of his new role, especially since he’s not opposed to stressful roles if they’re fairly compensated. Can he simply say he’s looking to earn closer to market wage? Any other ideas?

    1. Nicotena*

      I don’t think it’s strange to say that X and Y duties have been added to his plate, but the salary/title don’t reflect the market rate for those wages. Particularly if they’re known big-ticket skills like fundraising, sales, or computer things that are typically better paid than his previous role. Most employers would understand this perfectly well, I think.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Thanks. I think I’ve been getting caught up in thinking “it was his idea, it will look terrible to walk away!” but n the context of low pay and low support, it isn’t a big deal.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Seriously “New opportunities” is all anyone needs to say. I’ve barely ever had anyone actually ask me this, other than on the application. Probably more common question in other industries but I’ve applied for a lot of academic jobs and you’re much more likely to get “why do you want this job?”

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        That’s a good point, I’m also looking for a new role and I’ve only gotten “why this organization/this role”, never “why are you leaving”

        1. MissBaudelaire*

          Yeah, no one ever asked me “Why did you leave X job?” they didn’t care. They were more interested in “Why do you want to work here?”

      2. G*

        Thirding this. I was straight up laid off, its clear on my resume that the old position has ended based on the dates, and people have still barely asked me about it. Just why I was interested in the job I was applying for.

        I was pretty surprised, but that seems to be how it generally goes!

        1. Nicotene*

          I think it happens when you’re still employed and your resume shows you haven’t been at your previous job for very long. If it’s clear from your resume that you were laid off, I think it’s kind of crappy of an interviewer to focus on that.

          1. Quinalla*

            Yes, you will almost always get asked if you still are employed. They are looking for why you are leaving to make sure you hopefully won’t leave them for the same reason and also looking for obvious red flags. The reasoning of him getting tons of extra work with basically no pay increase is an excellent reason to give!

      3. Yorick*

        And interviewers aren’t gonna know that he’s choosing to leave after a “promotion,” which they might wonder about, since he didn’t get a title change that he’ll put on his resume.

    3. Teapot Repair Technician*

      When was interviewing, I said nothing but good things about my current employer to potential employers. I hated my old job and had all sorts of complaints, but I saw no reason to share them. The last thing I wanted to do was present myself as an employee with the potential to become dissatisfied to the point of quitting.

      When asked “why are you looking to move one?” by the hiring manager who eventually hired me, my answer was, “I want to work for a larger company, in city X, that manufactures more complex equipment.” All things true of that company (and true of what I wanted), which is why I said it.

    4. Thea*

      I was in a similar situation a few years back. I focused on why I wanted the new position I was applying for, and why I wanted to work for their company. When they asked why I wanted to move on, I lied. I said I hadn’t really been looking and that I liked what it did in my then current position, but that the position they had open just seemed really really interesting, sort of a reverse “an opportunity too good to ignore”. Which it kind of was, because it was at a company I wanted to work for, whereas my old company I mostly wanted to burn to the ground.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Due to the reorganization, he’s been given far more responsibilities without an appropriate salary or title adjustment, and he’s looking for a role where the title and compensation are commensurate with the scope of the role and with the market.

      Perfectly reasonable. This is exactly what enployers need to know to assess fit. He certainly doesn’t want to go through the hassle of interviewing if it’s going to be the same thing at a new place.

    6. Purple Cat*

      I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say “Three positions were consolidated into one, without a commensurate salary increase”.

    7. JelloStapler*

      As someone who works in higher ed, I can so relate to his issue. Is he looks in higher ed or in other fields? If the latter, I think he can say that he is looking to explore other industries. If the former, just keeping it open and saying what Nicotena suggested.

      Many HEd places are aware of the salary compression issue in the industry, and many are losing people due to this- it will not be surprised. Just approach it as “new opportunities to match experience with benefits” or something similar.

    8. ten four*

      He can absolutely say that he’s looking to earn closer to market wage! And you’re getting a lot of folks saying that it probably won’t come up, so I wanted to throw in my experience: I have absolutely been asked about why I was leaving before.

      In my experience the key to coping with this is to have an answer you feel confident in and delivering it with minimal fuss. I have definitely said too much in that situation! But I do agree that the overwhelming majority of interviewers are totally fine with a breezy, low-detail answer – he should just make sure he has one.

    9. HR Exec Popping In*

      He doesn’t need to give any real specifics and should not get into anything about “being wronged”. He can simply say he is looking for the opportunity to advance and as higher ed is facing serious financial constraints he doesn’t believe that is possible at the university.

  4. Part Time Question*

    If you work part time but salaried, let’s say 20 hours a week, so you usually don’t work Fridays – do you work Fridays on holiday weeks? Do you think a part time worker should work 20 hours in a holiday week, or are some of those hours “holiday” ? Maybe this varies by job. I don’t really want to bring it up because I suspect my boss hasn’t thought about it, but if asked, would say I should work on my days off during short holiday weeks.

    1. WellRed*

      We’ll do you want to get paid for 20 hours? Then you need to work them in somewhere. Could be Friday. Could work longer days ( if feasible).

        1. Nicotena*

          Right, it’s a salaried job so in theory the hours per week don’t matter, any more than it does for full time workers at 40 hours (they get holiday hours in holiday weeks). When I was full time, I didn’t like, make up labor day by working on the weekends and evenings until I hit my 40 hours. However, this feels different to me. I might try to stay later on the remaining days but if I always work Fridays on holiday weeks, that basically means I don’t get holidays “off.”

    2. ThatGirl*

      I feel like there should be existing policies about whether part time workers get paid holidays. For instance, if you usually work Mon/Tues/Wed and this past Monday was Labor Day, would you get paid for that? If so, you wouldn’t need to make up the hours. If not, I guess there’s your answer.

    3. Slipping The Leash*

      This is my situation. I’m on salary (paycheck and schedule never vary at all), with a 30-hour per week schedule. My company follows the NYSE holiday schedule. Same as with a full-time employee — if a holiday happens to fall when I’m not in the office normally, I don’t get holiday PTO. If it falls when I normally work, I get PTO for the hours I’d otherwise be working that day.

      1. Part Time Question*

        Oh, that’s an interesting model. I hadn’t considered that. In that case it was greatly to my advantage to pick Friday, not Monday, as my day off.

    4. Jancy*

      We give part time staff 4 hours of holiday pay for days off. So for Monday, if a part timer worked 4 hours on Monday then they got the day off no other issues. If they worked 8 hours on Monday, then they got 4 hours of holiday pay and needed to make up 4 hours during the week (or take 4 hours of vacation leave). If they don’t work Monday, then they get 4 hours of holiday leave to be used somewhere else during that week.

      2. JessicaTate*

        This is how we handle it as well. You get the pro-rated equivalent of the 8-hour day, and work with your supervisor to select a day in that same week to take it.

    5. Just Here for the Free Lunch*

      A few years ago I had 2 PT salaried employees in a job-share arrangement. They had a set schedule. They got the holiday off if it fell on a day they were scheduled to work. They did not have to “make up” the holiday on another day. It’s just cleaner that way.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a team lead who is 0.8 FTE and salaried, they work M-Th, and if they *wanted* to shift their hours on holiday weeks (for example to take Monday off this week instead of Friday) I wouldn’t object to that, but I wouldn’t expect it of them either. (In that case, they had Monday off as the paid holiday and then today as a regular day off.) That said – our “holidays” are added into our PTO bucket at 8 hours per, so if someone chooses to work on the holiday they don’t get holiday pay but they keep the 8 hours in their regular PTO bucket for later, so it’s not like they’re missing out on either holiday pay or extra PTO either way.

    7. OyHiOh*

      I am not expected to work Fridays in place of a Monday holiday. My boss decided I should get paid for holidays, and have the day off like everyone else in the org (who are all full time/salaried). There’s nothing that requires this arrangement, but also nothing that forbids it, so it’s what we do.

    8. Just Another Cog*

      My workplace prorates everything for part-time employees (except health insurance, which is fabulous). When I was part-time, I got a prorated amount of holiday pay for paid holidays.

      (But I was half-time every day M-F, so it was clearer that I also got those days off like everyone else).

      I’d argue that if fulltime workers get a paid holiday, that’s 20% of their week. You’d get 20% of your 20 hours as holiday, or 4 hours. So put in 16 hours that week?

      (Insert “seems legit” reaction gif here)

    9. Amey*

      I’m in the UK so maybe entirely different from you, but I work that same schedule (Monday-Thursday) and am the UK equivalent of salaried and I wouldn’t be expected to work an alternative day in a week with a holiday in it. Conversely, if the holiday fell on a Friday, I wouldn’t expect an alternative day off.

      Think of it this way – full-time people are getting their week shortened by a day because of the holiday, so are you! That’s fine! The holiday is meant to be a day off.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      My bosses expect me to take the day off without making it up later on the week.

      Reality is that I fall too far behind if I do that so I work the holiday or work extra hours on my regular work days.

    11. Windchime*

      I work part-time and am salaried. This past week was Labor Day on Monday, and I have Monday’s off. So I got a 4 hour holiday credit that I can apply to a day when I *do* work. I worked my normal 20 hours this week, and will apply the 4 hours to a day next week. I could have applied the credit to a day this week and then only work 16 hours, but I have plans for next week so I am choosing to use it there instead.

    12. HR Exec Popping In*

      Most companies have policies that dictate how holiday pay works. I would recommend you start there if your org has documented policies.

    13. Esmeralda*

      Check with HR or whomever is in charge of HR related functions in your department. There may be a rule or policy already that you will need to comply with.

    14. Chilipepper Attitude*

      Salaried and exempt are separate things. Exempt is defined by the federal govt and means that you get paid for the full week of work even if you don’t work a full week. Salaried just means they pay you for x hours every week but they do not have to. That is a simple explanation. So holiday pay for salaried workers (FT or PT) will vary by employer. There might be laws on this for your state but I think it is up to the employer.

      They could reduce your salary that week or expect you to work 20 hours (on the holiday or other days that week) or just pay you for 20 hours when you work 15.

      1. Part Time Question*

        Wow, that is a great point, I probably need to check if I’m exempt and what that means for me. I really thought non-exempt just meant you got overtime pay (which I don’t).

  5. Let me be dark and twisty*

    If someone pulled rank on you (and your company culture is one where that stuff doesn’t fly), does that change your impression of that person? And any advice for working with someone who pulls rank on his subordinates to meet his objectives?

    1. 867-5309*

      What do you mean by “pulling rank”? It is a manager’s prerogative to establish priorities and make decisions, even if it is not what the rest of the team agrees with. Sometimes it’s because they’re as ass and sometimes they have more information.

      1. Let me be dark and twisty*

        Here’s the context. I didn’t want to get into it in case it seemed like I was venting, as opposed to asking for advice (which would be breaking Alison’s rule) but I think it might help.

        A few weeks ago I asked for advice on how to approach Jan, who was assigning me work our admin assistant, Pam, used to do. I work for and report to David on special projects. Jan and I are colleagues in the sense we both report to David but Jan has is a VP and has a team of sales associates under her. I don’t have a fancy title and I’m not a manager. After Pam left, David had me take over her work till he decided whether to replace her. He decided not to, instructed me to stop Pam’s work, and notified everyone in the office that. Jan had delegated a task to Pam to monitor a report to track that her team was submitting their updates on time that she wanted me to continue doing. I pushed back. Jan pulled rank with “I’m the Vice President of Sales. You think your job designing teapots is more important that you’re going to make me do this?”

        I never responded (oh how I wanted to tell her ‘it’s not my job to manage your staff’) so the subject was dropped. Jan stopped asking me to do the task but her reaction left a sour taste in my mouth that I’m having a hard time getting rid of and I definitely don’t want that to come up when Jan and I are meeting with David.

        1. 867-5309*

          If she was crappy about it then I can see feeling irritated but the actual request does not seem out of line. She is a Vice President managing a staff, so offloading some administrative work task to the administrative assistant makes sense.

          2. The New Wanderer*

            That makes sense if there was still an admin assistant to delegate to. There isn’t, and Dark and Twisty isn’t expected to continue taking any admin assistant work per her (and Jan’s) boss. Jan should be delegating this task to someone in her staff, where she wouldn’t be ‘pulling rank’ but acting as a manager.

            We have this setup at my company – non-managers (usually in technical roles) and managers reporting to the same boss, so they are effectively peers. I can’t imagine any managers trying to delegate tasks to non-management peers when that isn’t part of the non-managers’ work statement or expectations.

          3. Jules the 3rd*

            Sure, it made sense when there was an admin assistant, but D&T isn’t one.

            When David announced there’d be no replacement for Pam, Jan should have checked for either another actual admin or within her mgmt line for the right person to do this. I’m assuming Jan’s seen D&T’s work with David.

            BUT D&T: Jan pulling rank once, in a situation where you’ve been temporarily doing the work, could easily be just a gut reaction to ‘oh shit that’s on my plate again.’ Take some time, sit back and look at all your interactions with Jan, and see if this is a pattern or a one off. If it’s one-off, cut her some slack, this is a stressful time.

            If it’s a pattern, or something you’ve seen from other people: ask David for a fancy title. Explain the work-related reasoning (it will make your position and duties clearer). Probably go over easier if you say you’re not looking for a pay bump, but if it’s time for pay review, wrap ‘fancy title’ into the conversation.

            good luck however you go….

          4. TiffIf*

            But OP isn’t the administrative assistant. They don’t have an administrative assistant anymore and OP is not Jan’s subordinate nor does it sounds like OP is someone she should be assigning that work to.

            OP: It would leave a bad taste in my mouth too, you were specifically instructed not to continue to do that work; Jan was notified of this and then still tried to bully you into doing it. Ultimately though, because she didn’t continue to make the request, I would let it go. If Jan does bring it up in a meeting with David, you can point to David’s specific instructions.

        2. Sandman*

          If David told you to stop doing Pam’s work, I’d definitely bring it up with him. Jan sounds like she’s overstepping and holding you responsible for a decision you didn’t make.

          1. Chilipepper Attitude*

            Just let David know! Tell him you are adjusting your priorities based on doing this extra task from Jan that Pam used to do.
            Or tell him Jan asked you to do x that Pam used to do and you asked her if you should keep doing it and she said yes and you want to let him know so he is aware of your work load.

            Or tell him you don’t want to keep doing this old task of Pams that Jan asked you to keep doing and is there someone else better qualified to do it?

            And feel free to keep thinking Jan is a jerk but a jerk you are paid to be cordial to. Or take the advice here about how to let that feeling go. Either way, focus on your own peace of mind.

        3. Hillary*

          So you mentioned you’re having a hard time getting rid of the feeling. I make up stories with kindest, most banal explanations and decide they’re truth until I learn differently. I do this for my mental health, not for anyone else’s benefit. I’m a happier person when I assume positive intent until proven otherwise.
          Maybe this will help?

          Jan was probably having a bad day. Maybe something went wrong right before she talked to you, a customer yelled at her perhaps. You (very reasonably) say no to something and she overreacts. After the fact she feels mortified, she knows she was in the wrong and that’s not how a manager is supposed to treat an employee, especially in your company’s culture. And she hasn’t apologized because she’s embarrassed.

          If the behavior is a one off the story might even be true.

          1. Hillary*

            I’m back and forth on bringing it up with David. If something like this happened to me I would probably talk it over with my manager, but only if it was with someone he didn’t manage. The conversation would be more about the org – did I misunderstand something? how does he want me to handle it going forward?

            But since you share a manager I’d leave it alone. If Jan did have a problem with you refusing to do this she already took it up with David and he backed you, which means he already knows about it. (I’ve never met a VP of Sales who would be able to sit on something like this – it doesn’t fit with the personality type that excels in those roles.) If she realized she was in the wrong she won’t let it happen again and your problem has been solved.

            1. Fran Fine*

              Your last point is a good one. Jan hasn’t come back and asked for this report again, so David more than likely already set her straight about the fact that OP should not be doing these admin tasks anymore. One of her direct reports probably is.

              OP, I don’t blame you for feeling some kind of way about Jan’s behavior – it was very gross and dismissive of your own position within the company. But I agree with others that if she isn’t generally like this, to let it go but keep a mental note of if so that if she does stuff like this again, you’ll know if you need to escalate to David.

        4. Teapot Repair Technician*

          I was wondering what you meant by “pulling rank,” and this seems to be a perfect example–someone not in your line of command gives you an order because they outrank you.

          My only advice would be to bring it up with David before Jan does. “David, Jan asked me to do task X but I don’t have time. Can you please assign it to someone else?”

        5. Qwerty*

          It sounds like you’ve gotten caught in a communication issue between Jan and David. Rather than not responding, I would have recommended adding David to the email chain so that he could discuss priorities with Jan. By not responding (and especially without knowing the wording used when you initially pushed back) this could easily look to Jan as you refusing to do the work rather the reality of David has not prioritized the work for his team and/or decided it was out of scope for his team.

          But all that is already done, so going forward I would loop in David that Jan is still expecting for Pam’s projects to be continued and have him follow up with her.

          As to the question of if it would change my impression of her – a bit, but I’d try to vent to a friend and let it go unless it became a pattern. Because I’m also judging David for not anticipating that stopping all of Pam’s projects was going to cause problems and having a contingency plan so that you don’t get caught up in the resulting drama.

        6. Not So NewReader*

          I can’t tell if David is your main boss or just your boss over special projects.
          It sounds like David is effectively your main boss.

          It also sounds like David and Jan may not get a long too well? But, hey, that is NONE of your concern here.

          Your only concern here is that David (immediate boss) said never do X and an upper boss said, always do X.
          Conflicting orders.

          Ideally, the thing to say is something like, “Has David been told?”
          But if you cannot pull that question up on the spot (as many people cannot) then the next step is to ask David if Jan’s orders have been discussed with HIM.
          In many instances that can cause a big “Hell NO” from the immediate boss (David) and you could be told to do nothing until you receive further word.

          Jan basically stepped around David and assigned work to someone else’s subordinate. This is so NOT cool. Judging from her testy response, she knew she was on thin ice from the start.

          Worst case scenario: I would do it the time she asked if I could not find my immediate boss to confirm with. This gets me out of being insubordinate IN THE MOMENT. And I can explain to my immediate boss that I could not turn down her directive and the immediate boss was not available to discuss the matter. This gets me off the hook for disobeying my immediate boss.
          It also can start a heck of a verbal fire. Let it roll, I say. It’s up to them to figure all this out, not you.

          Notice I did not mention Jan’s leadership style or her known reputation. None of that has any bearing. She overstepped. And that is the key here.

        7. Marillenbaum*

          I think you were right to push back, because David told you to stop doing Pam’s tasks. If Jan has an issue with that, she should have taken it up with David, not you, and anyone who feels the need to wave their title around at you as a means of pushing back is kind of a jerk. You got what you needed (her to stop pushing the task on you), but it seems perfectly reasonable to acknowledge going forward that Jan will absolutely be a title-waving jerk, and to factor that in accordingly when having to deal with her.

        8. HR Exec Popping In*

          Believe people when they show you who they really are. Jan is a B!+@&. Full stop. And it is not just ok but smart for you to understand that and treat her appropriately. I’m not talking about being rude to her but be careful and don’t trust her.

        9. Esmeralda*

          Kick it to David. He’s your boss, he told you you’re not doing Pam’s work. Is Jan in any way your boss? (Not the same as higher rank in company. For example: The dean of the liberal arts college has a much higher rank than me, but I’m not in the liberal arts college, so she can kick rocks if she wants me to write reports).

          I’d keep the feelings out of it though: David, I’m not sure how to handle this. Jan asked me to do the TPS reports Pam used to do; I explained…but she insisted.

        10. Curious*

          Jan sounds awful. I don’t blame you for the whole thing leaving a bad taste in your mouth – it would for me, too!

          I’d have a quiet word with David about it, if you’re worried about Jan bringing it up later to him, especially if she’s the type to try and weaponise every possible small thing that happens. David also really needs to remind Jan that he is your manager, not her.

    2. Littorally*

      I’m a little confused by the question. “Pulling rank” on one’s subordinates seems like part of management to me. At some point, you have to say — look, you may not agree, but I’m your boss and the direction I set for the work needs to be followed.

      What is the problem with the directives he’s issuing? If you need to push back on something, it’s probably going to be more fruitful to say, here’s the problem with the objective, rather than that you don’t like your boss reminding you that he’s your boss.

      1. Just Another Cog*

        If you read the update, you’ll see that 1) the person pulling rank is a woman, and 2) the person pulling rank is not her supervisor, and 3) her actual supervisor told her NOT to do the thing that the person pulling rank told her to do.

        1. Littorally*

          Yep, the update changes things noticeably from the original question. I stand by my response to ‘And any advice for working with someone who pulls rank on his subordinates to meet his objectives?’

          But, for the update, Dark & Twisty has a manager who is not this person, and who should be the one going to bat for them.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Even in a culture where “pulling rank” overtly isn’t done, there is still a hierarchy and the boss typically still needs to be the ultimate decision maker. If he’s pulling rank publicly, it’s probably because no one is respecting that typically unspoken rule. Would I change my impression of my boss — IDK, depends on what he’s pulling rank about — the office coffee choice or the direction a major project goes. Advice to work with them…typically the only solution is to recognize they are in charge. Either cooperate and see if the sky collapses or find a new job.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Yes, this.
        My workplace is generally pretty informal. As one of the bosses, it’s very rare for me to to pull rank but if I do, it’s pretty much always either
        – because the thing that needs doing is really important / needs to happen right now (e.g. my objective is we stay in business / meet the hard deadline / comply with our regulator’s requirements) and there isn’t always time to explain why
        – because the person I am pulling rank on is ignoring the less direct directions / instructions.

    4. GMan*

      “Pulling Rank” is fine if someone needs to be reminded of the manager-subordinate relationship, which happens sometimes. Subordinates may get too friendly/too close with their boss, may try to push the limits of their position, or may spend too much time trying to change a decision already made. In those cases, pulling rank is fine.

      But I suspect when you say ‘pulling rank’ it’s actually about a manager using the corporate hierarchy to justify the deflecting questions when they make decisions without actually having a sound reason – eg. “boss, we’ve been doing X for very long and now you’re asking us to do Y, could you explain?” and the response is “I don’t need to explain I’m the boss” then I’d say maybe pulling the boss aside and explaining why sharing your thought process with the team is useful.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Having read your comment/update with more detail, yes, Jan was obnoxious and out of line and it would make anyone dislike her.

      If you haven’t yet learned to work productively and civilly with people you don’t like, now is the time to start. It is not necessary to have a good opinion of someone personally in order to get along with them appropriately in a work setting.

      Since the subject is dropped, and you aren’t required to do the report, the only way it likely going to come up in a meeting with Jan and David is if you bring it up. So, don’t.

      If Jan brings it up, you can just refer back to David. Doing that report is not an appropriate use of your time, and you have bern instructed not to spend time on Pam’s old tasks. Jan and David can figure it out between themselves. Perhaps Jan needs to advocate for hiring a new admin after all.

    6. CurrentlyBill*

      Jan isn’t even pulling rank well. You both report to David.
      David told you to stop doing Pam’s work.
      Jan told you to continue doing Pam’s work.
      Jan’s VP title is irrelevant here. (setting political niceties aside)

      Because Dan’s order trumps Jan’s.

      If Jan has a problem with that, she should talk to Dan.

      Complying with Jan’s instruction would be insubordination on OP’s part

  6. Coffee au Lait*

    I want to thank the poster who shared the MCU fan fic about the Worst (Best?) holiday date story shared here at AAM. I read it yesterday while getting my hair cut. I laughed so hard I cried.

      1. Coffee au Lait*

        It went well! I was actually getting a pixie cut (goodbye heavy long hair!), and the hairdresser was afraid I was crying because I what she was doing. I read the original story outloud to her because everyone should experience the worst-best date in the history of horrible party stories.

    6. The Vulture*

      I also appreciate that! It was amazing and I hope the person who wrote in was able to read the fanfic, because, wow, just how pure and hilarious to have made in into AAM lore AND THEN it turns into a MCU alternate-universe fanfic, my goodness, what a world we live in, I’m in awe, I truly think it’s so beautiful.

    7. Fanfic fan*

      Aw, glad you liked it! I was so excited when I stumbled on it that I had to share it with the AAM commentariat.

      I’m on a work computer so I don’t want to poke around on fanfic sites, but for those asking for a link it’s called “You’re Where You Should Be All The Time” by Laura Kaye, over on Archive of Our Own.

    8. Ana*

      I randomly found an Once Upon A Time fanfic based on that post as well, though I haven’t read it yet. Link in reply.

        1. Ana*

          Ah wait, I just took a look through my open tabs and there the link was posted on another AAM post a few days ago. Sorry, MJ!
          (I was legit randomly searching the Walsh tag yesterday but I probably followed your link to do it and just forgot.)

    9. Might Be Spam*

      Notice for Anyone else writing AAM fan fic, PLEASE let us know. I loved the two that were linked and I want MORE!

      1. Ana*

        Ask A Manager really should become a tag so the stories can be found! Though doing that might encourage more people to do it and it would be unfair for AAM posters to risk turning into “real people fanfiction” (I think is the term?)

    13. GoryDetails*

      Wasn’t it awesome? I’ve been sharing it with friends – both the original AAM letter and the fanfic – to the general delight of everybody!

    15. Chaordic One*

      That was a great story. It was the kind of story that should be told on “The Moth Radio Hour” show on NPR.

  7. TJ Anonymous for this*

    If anyone has any experience with leaving an employer (and career) you thought you would be at for the rest of your working days I would appreciate hearing about it. Also any tips for someone who has never had to do a resume or job interview are appreciated. Thank you.

    (For anyone who wants background my situation is this: I have worked at my current employer for almost 15 years full-time, plus the three summers as an intern while I was in college. Besides a part-time retail job when I was in high school and during college this is the only career/employer I ever had. I’m leaving because our hybrid work schedule isn’t being enforced. In this industry working from home 100% of the time is impossible. Because the pandemic was worldwide for a time exceptions were made but they were not sustainable. My industry has basically decided on a hybrid, once a week or once every other week in the office schedule. Public health and government limit how many people we can have in our building. So my employer made a schedule. But no one follows it and everyone comes in when they want. This means by the time I get to work, since I take transit, the building is at capacity and I am not allowed in.

    My commute is 30-45 minutes each way and being sent home is annoying. It also means I can’t get my in office work done. I have brought my concerns to management but they don’t care to enforce the schedule. I know of three other companies in my industry with similar issues. So I’ve decided to leave here and I will be applying for jobs in two other industries where my skills can transfer. But I feel so lost. I thought I would retire at this company. My retail job was through a family member, my internships were through my college and I got offered my job because of the internships. I’m 37 and I have never done a resume or had an interview in my life.

    I don’t care if my new job is remote, in office or hybrid and I know I need to leave my current job but I find the thought of switching careers and leaving here scary. Can anyone relate?)

    2. Amtelope*

      That’s extremely ridiculous of your employer, I’m sorry — surely if some people ignoring the schedule is making it impossible for other people to work in the office on their scheduled days, they ought to do something about that.

    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m so sorry for this situation! It’s absurd the way your employer is handling hybrid work and being SENT HOME is just breathtakingly stupid and short sighted.
      That being said, please give yourself time to grieve the loss of what you envisioned your future career to be. And please, please read lots (maybe all!) of the Good News Friday posts as well as all of AAM’s job seeking advice. This is (in general) a wonderful time to be looking for a job and who knows? You could find something you like even more than where you are now! Please don’t be afraid! YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!

    4. Ali G*

      I can relate to the part about not knowing how to interview/do a resume etc. I got my first job out of grad school because my Master’s Project advisor said I should apply to a certain position. I did interview, but I didn’t know he was on the Board and recommended me until after I started working there. That was way back in 2003. 8+ years later when I was looking for a change, I happened to be copied on an email from my boss to a client I had worked extensively with that mentioned him helping the client seek candidates for a new position. Well I did my boss one better and went and filled the position my self :). My interview was basically “come talk to us so we know you are normal and let’s talk salary” and then I was hired.
      So, in 2018, when I was 39 years old, I was out a job (long story for another time) and I was starting a job search from scratch for the first time ever. I didn’t want the easy route, which was to stay in my industry and just take the same job somewhere else. I was done after 15 years.
      My advice is take ALL of Alison’s advice. Read her resources on resumes, cover letters and interviews and use ALL the tips. Once I revamped my stuff with her advice I started getting lots of interest. The job I have now, the HR person told me that as soon as she read my cover letter she knew I needed to be interviewed for the position. It took me about 6 months, but later this month I’ll celebrate my 3 year anniversary, and it’s by far the best job I ever had.
      Good luck! You can do it.

    5. AVP*

      My advice is to practice explaining why you want to leave this company/industry in a detached, non-emotional way. Your explanation here is extremely fair but make sure you can deliver it that way, and practice on a friend or partner if you can before your first interview just to make sure. It’s a huge decision and you don’t want to, like, tear up about it in front of a stranger.

      For resumes…find a model online that you like the look of, write it up, and send it to a friend or family member who is good at hiring to look it over. If you’ve progressed at your current job over the years, list it as separate jobs so it gives you some dynamism and doesn’t show one giant job listing. Good luck!!

    6. 1qtkat*

      AAM has lots of advice for job seekers about resumes and interviews. I would definitely search around the site. Good luck!

    7. Teapot Repair Technician*

      No advice, but I can relate. When I was in college and the couple years after I graduated, jobs just fell into my lap, the last of which I stayed at for almost 15 years before deciding to leave.

      In my late 30s, having to conduct a job search and face rejection for the first time in my life made me feel like a fish out of water. But it’s not impossible! I suspect everyone feels a little scared by the prospect leaving a job regardless of how many times they’ve done it.

    8. Malarkey01*

      I know you didn’t ask for advice about the hybrid situation but what would happen if you called your boss and said “I am standing outside the front door being refused entry even though I’m on the schedule. Would you prefer I sit here and read a book/ scroll the Internet/ work on my tan until someone comes out or should I take the day off with pay?” I just cannot imagine a scenario where an employee would be told to figure this out themselves.

      That said, this is all so new and so many of us are trying to figure this out on the fly. If you really dont want to leave, my next step would be to talk to my manager and say we have to figure something out and then have a little patience in the event this is no longer an issue for whatever reason in 2 months.

      1. TJ Anonymous for this*

        This has been going on since the hybrid model started in July. I have brought it to the attention of management several times. If anyone is refused entry to the building the only options are to go back home or somewhere else to work (and due to the pandemic it’s not like there are cafes and libraries open) or get in trouble for not showing up. The management refusing to deal with it is why I’m leaving. And I’m leaving the whole industry since there are the same issues elsewhere and I do not want to run into them again.

        1. Fran Fine*

          This is so shortsighted of your management to allow good employees to leave over something that’s so easily fixable. I’m sorry you have to deal with this stupidity and have to leave your whole industry because of it.

        2. fantomina*

          also, I don’t understand why the person enforcing the building capacity limits can’t also have a copy of the schedule and just turn away anyone who’s not supposed to be there that day? Perhaps suggesting a specific game plan would make more headway?

        3. Malarkey01*

          I am really sorry and this is so incredibly dumb it literally sounds like one bad manager. Honestly at this stage I’d just not do the part of the job that requires you to be onsite and when they call you on it, that’s fine, say I was unable to get onsite due to occupancy and I’m at a loss for how I can circumvent that. When you get in trouble for not being there say oh but I was. Here’s he email I sent you from the front door. Sure it won’t stop them from firing you if they really aren’t going to address this but if you’re on your way out over it I’d make it a little more difficult for them to continue to ignore.

          And if you haven’t, I’d write an email to HR and the leadership team above operating managers and spell out exactly what is happening and ask what the company is doing for people denied legitimate entry (sometimes things can sound like management and it’s only a few idiots- sometimes you do find a whole group of idiots that come together though).

    9. have we met?*

      If you really don’t want to leave this job, can you get to the office earlier so it’s not at capacity by the time you arrive?

      If not, how long are you willing to put up with the situation? It sounds like you have decided to move on. It also sounds like you are grieving. This is normal! Realize it’s going to take some time to work through the emotions of it.

      As for the overwhelming task of looking for something new, take it one step at a time:
      1. Get Alison’s book
      2. Update your LinkedIn and other professional profiles (Indeed, etc.)
      3. And just start. The first application will be the hardest application. The first interview will be the hardest interview. You don’t have to be perfect at applying for jobs. Just start.

      You can do this!

      1. TJ Anonymous for this*

        Thank you. Since I use transit getting in earlier isn’t an option for me, plus we gave set hours for business around what clients expect so those are the hours we need to work. It’s been going on since July and since management is doing nothing I am fed up.

        Thank you for the advice.

    10. Snow Globe*

      I’m going through this now; at the end of the month I will be leaving a company that I’ve worked at for over 30 years. Our company is trying to pare costs and has offered certain employees a voluntary retirement package. It was too good to pass up, but it does feel strange; I expected to retire here. The good news, I’m not actually ready to retire, so started looking for another job, and I’ve got one lined up to start the week after my last day. I was concerned that the combination of my age and so many years with the same company would make it tough to find something, but I got two offers within six weeks. A couple of people I interviewed with said they thought it was great that I had spent so many years with one company. And I’m now really excited about the new job; I honestly didn’t realize that I have been less than enthusiastic about work for a while now. I think once you make a decision and start acting on it, you’ll start looking forward instead of back, and that’s a good thing.

    11. Purple Cat*

      My husband just left his company of 22 years that he started at before we graduated college and it was SCARY for him too!
      Your feelings are perfectly normal. The days of working forever for one company are gone. Those of us with high longevity think we’ll last forever, but realistically, we won’t. So just try to embrace the change and find an opportunity you’re excited about! Read everything AAM offers on resumes and interviews, and PRACTICE with a friend!

      Good luck, you got this!

    12. Ashley*

      I spent close to 20 years in one job and recently switched. I had thought I would have retired from that place, but they took that to mean as they could just dump on me because I would never leave.
      I took the time to find the right place and life is so much better. I sleep at night. I don’t have the Sunday dread of the next day. There is a team to help out when things can crazy busy. I had something come up this week and my company has gone way out of their way to be accommodating despite not being there that long and it is something some places could have easily found the technicality to just be jerks.
      Take your time to find the right place (which is really hard once you realize you have to leave), but it is so worth it.

    13. No longer the old timer*

      I left what I thought was my forever job back in the spring after almost 20 yrs. I no longer felt valued and when I tried discussing career path options, just got a lot of corporate talk. One day a job posting came up for the exact role I wanted in our city but in a completely different industry. I was nervous and felt rusty with the interviewing stuff, but it worked out.

      I thought leaving would be harder but it felt right. The new company is an even better work/life balance plus better pay and I enjoy what I am doing so much.

      So short version – just go for it. When your gut is telling you it is time to go for whatever reason, make the jump. Lean on your professional experience and trust your instincts.

    14. ronda*

      there might also be some job seekers groups to join. This can help with practice interview, practice networking, etc.

      I was laid off from a job after 17 years and they had a paid service that did this kind of stuff for people they laid off for a number of months. Some of it was helpful, some of it was not. I did like that I had an appointment that I was supposed to get some stuff done by, but that depends on how self motivated you are.

      Also my university offered similar session to job seekers.

    15. Senioritis Spreadsheet*

      I can relate! I’ve worked at the same place for almost eighteen years, and expected to retire from here. They flubbed the pandemic reopening – not as badly as your company! – with an urgent recall to the office for work that needed to be done in person… and then the work didn’t materialize. So I’m sitting there bored and annoyed, with only work I could do at home. While everyone has reported being vaccinated, the office has no Covid policies – the pandemic is over and they do not want to hear about it.

      I am easing my way into job-search gear. I am reading a lot of AAM archives, and trying to take the very good advice there. I am also trying to switch fields – starting over with no seniority to do exactly the same work does not appeal at all. I’m being careful with my cover letters, to try to show that my experience is relevant. I had my first screening interview earlier this week, and it was not bad.

      Crossing fingers that both of us find something great!

    16. Triplehiccup*

      Definitely find a friend to practice interviewing with and to review your resume/cover letter. Ideally they’ll help you practice negotiating salary too. One of the real perks to switching companies, in my experience, is the opportunity for a pay jump, since so many places prioritize recruitment over retention when it comes to budgeting payroll. Don’t underestimate yourself! And if you’re in the US, try to be strategic about the logistics of leaving. Eg set your last day for the beginning of the month so your insurance goes until the end of the month; use up your FSA if you have one – you’re entitled to the full amount even if you haven’t paid the full amount for the year.

    17. Quinalla*

      I left a job after 13 years that until the last couple months I thought I stay at forever. I did interview for that job, but was quite rusty. I ended up going through a recruiter and using advice from here and one other website, the recruited helped with salary negotiations, the rest I knew as much or more than him and he thought my resume was great already. It was a bit intimidating, but it went just fine.

    18. Gelie Fish*

      I recently left a job of 14 years that I expected to be at possibly until retirement, but they were going to restructure. Follow the advice, remember interviews are opportunities to get to know each other. I also want to say, I am very happy with my new job. I am loving the new challenges and people. It can be a great opportunity

  8. awesome3*

    I realize that a lot of people are resigning right now, but it seems like most of them have new jobs lined up. So why does it feel like everywhere is having an employee shortage, when based on the logic that people are moving into new jobs, there should be some places doing a lot of hiring? In your city do you see the same amount of people resigning as being hired? Or something else? Thank you for any explanations

    1. irene adler*

      There may be an uptick in demand for product or service the business provides. So not only are they replacing those who quit, they are adding workers to meet the increased demand.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        In the case of my niche field, there is definitely a very recent uptick in demand for these skills. There are more openings than qualified applicants because there just aren’t that many people with senior-level experience and the appropriate background/education. I’m leaving for a better offer myself, while my company currently has multiple openings for my role at several levels (junior, mid career, senior) that have been posted several times over the past six months. They are hoping to hire up to 30 people, which is an unprecedented expansion, and so far have gotten maybe 10 and almost all at the junior level, none at the senior level.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s a big mismatch between employers and potential employees, especially in service jobs, especially especially in restaurants. I think that’s what you’re seeing. It’s not in every sector of the economy, and it’s not in every geographic region.

      1. awesome3*

        Thank you for the insight. I am seeing it in restaurants like you said, as well as nursing, non-profits, and my partner’s for-profit private company seems to be loosing a person a week. Everyone I’ve talked to is going somewhere else, not retiring or choosing another path, so it’s hard to figure out the logic where it seems like so many places are loosing people, when you’d think some places must be gaining people

        1. Siege*

          So, jobs that are badly paid and where the employees are often badly treated are losing jobs, but those employees are probably being absorbed into larger companies and potentially either freelance in a conventional industry or into a new or gig industry such as streaming content or Etsy-shop-owner. I would bet a lot of money that there’s a big bump in new users of monetized platforms like Twitch and DoorDash that would take out a lot of the potential pool for low-paid service jobs like restaurants. Not that those platforms are less abusive (in some ways, they are more abusive) but if you’re a nurse working on a COVID floor with anti-vaxxers as patients and coworkers, DoorDash has to look better to some people. At least there you know that you’ll have more than just jerks as clients.

          1. Theo*

            I actually know someone who left the nursing field to drive for something like DoorDash, because he couldn’t handle how vicious working with antivaxxers in an overtaxed field with no support was getting. He makes less money but he’s no longer having a mental breakdown so like….. there’s a reason some places are losing workers.

            1. Siege*

              Yeah, one of my sisters took a cut in hours in her job as a property manager and is driving for DoorDash, which also cuts down on her exposure to clients who may or may not be abusive.

        2. AcademiaNut*

          Restaurants lost a lot of people during shutdowns – the jobs vanished, and over a year and a half some people moved on to other jobs, some left the workforce (to stay with kids, for example), some retired, some want to come back but can’t yet (remote schooling), some died or are disabled due to COVID, and in urban areas, some had to leave because they couldn’t afford to stay. Now the field needs to hire a lot of people, but have lost a lot of their former pool of employees.

          Nursing – there was a shortage *before* COVID, now demand is up, and people have retired, or burnt out and quit, or gotten sick or disabled and had to quit.

          Warehouse and delivery jobs increased, and pulled a lot of the unskilled labour pool.

          Immigration decreased during COVID, and in some countries, (particularly ones that go by acronyms starting with U.) had been hampered by government policies before that, leading to a shortage of the kind of workers who fill a lot of low paid jobs.

          I don’t think it’s a coincidence that jobs that are hard physical work, have irregular schedules, irregular pay (in tipped jobs), few if any benefits, no paid sick leave, draconian absence policies, low pay, and involve getting screamed at by unvaccinated assholes, are somehow having trouble recruiting employees.

          Also, the labour force had gotten used to it being an employer’s market, after a recession followed by the COVID crash. They got used to expecting to hire overqualified candidates with crappy pay and benefits and have them be grateful for the job and are having trouble adjusting.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      why does it feel like everywhere is having an employee shortage

      Is there an employee shortage? Or are places not offering a living wage complaining they aren’t getting applicants?

      1. awesome3*

        That’s true, I guess “higher than usual turnover in a ton of places at once” is more what I was referring to. But what about the places that are paying employees what they are worth? Are they loosing people too/doing a lot of hiring/stable at the moment?

        1. Quinalla*

          We pay competively and have a great new quarterly bonus program and good benefits. We’ve lost I think one person since COVID started and been trying to hire as we have more work than we have people to do it right now. Hiring experienced people is VERY tough right now, but even hiring out of college for the skills we need has been tougher than normal too. It depends on the industry, but mine is booming right now, I get headhunter/recruiter calls and messages several times a week now. Used to be a couple times a month.

      2. RJ*

        This. Or are they being crazy about qualifications? A few weeks back I got rejected from a job that I was more than qualified for – I did a take-home test for it, and they rejected me but “kindly” provided feedback. The feedback for why I was rejected was not about the actual job skills, but about the formatting of the document I submitted. The formatting is taught and/or provided in SOPs in the first week so either they weren’t honest about why they rejected me, or they have not adequately trained the people who “mark” the assessment on what to look for. A month after I applied the job is still posted and I am still unemployed.

          1. Ama*

            I forget where it ran, but there was actually an article somewhere recently where someone actually did a study of how many good candidates for jobs were getting rejected by automated application systems either because the requirements were too rigid or poorly set up (i.e. a hiring manager not realizing a particular job where they wanted either a college degree OR X years of experience was set in the application system to require the college degree AND experience). So I don’t think your experience is uncommon.

            Employers want shortcuts so they don’t have to spend staff hours on hiring, but they haven’t figured out yet that the more shortcuts you put in your hiring process the more likely you are to eliminate a candidate you’d actually want to hire.

        2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I feel this about my current employer. We work in a field that requires excellent soft skills but the actual work can be taught easily, and there isn’t much of a path into this work – people tend to fall into it by accident. We pay quite poorly for our more entry level roles, and they just did away with some of the benefits that were actually competitive. Still, they refuse to hire anyone without direct experience, but anyone with experience is already making more than we pay! No wonder we can’t fill our open roles.

      3. Brandy*

        The government has given people the equivalent of $22/hour to not work. It’s not realistic to expect that wage or higher from service jobs, so people are choosing not to work. Hence, we have a labor shortage.

        You can have your opinion on whether the expanded unemployment benefits are a good or bad thing, but they are the cause of a lot of the labor shortage.

        1. pancakes*

          That isn’t necessarily correct, no. Have a look at an Aug. 20th article in the NY Times, which links to the federal Department of Labor study quoted here, and a couple others:

          “Data released Friday by the Labor Department provided the latest evidence. It showed that the states that cut benefits have experienced job growth similar to — and perhaps slightly slower than — growth in states that retained the benefits. That was true even in the leisure and hospitality sector, where businesses have been particularly vocal in their complaints about the benefits.”

          The title of the article is, “Cutoff of Jobless Benefits Is Found to Get Few Back to Work.”

      4. A Wall*

        That and companies seem to have just gotten very, very, very bad at hiring over the last decade. The friends I have who are desperately and unsuccessfully trying to hire are all tangling with some level or another of ridiculous bureaucracy and unreasonable standards from their companies’ management and/or HR. They are indeed struggling to find people to hire… Because they’re making a total mess of the hiring process. The amount of workers out there willing to apply has nothing to do with it.

        For example, one place’s initial phone screening for lower level openings includes assignment of a time-consuming project. You have to turn it in and be evaluated on it before they’ll schedule you for any actual interviews. Another place hasn’t even been able to start interviewing for positions that have been sitting open for many months because all interview candidates have to be approved by multiple layers of management first, and those folks are “too busy” to review any of the resumes that are sent to them, so they haven’t been able to interview a single person for any opening all year.

        The fact that anyone has the audacity to turn around from that kind of stuff and say “we just can’t FIND anyone!” isn’t surprising though, it’s the exact same thing everyone did during the recession. Companies will always try to claim their mismanagement is actually the fault of the workforce.

        1. Fran Fine*

          Omg, this! The problems in hiring you outlined have been issues in my own company (probably not to that extent – not interviewing for a year when there’s no active hiring freeze?!), so I know these claims are bull.

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve been wondering the same thing! Besides the obvious shortage in restaurant, retail, and healthcare, I’m experiencing staffing difficulties in fundraising, higher ed, and nonprofits. I think a big factor is people leaving for better offers and my employer isn’t competitive, but I’m also searching for something new and having a hard time even finding roles, not to mention getting interviews. So I guess it’s challenging on both sides of the equation right now.

      1. A Non iMouse*

        This. I keep hearing about employee shortages, but I’ve been diligently searching for over 17 months now without success.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      There’s so many factors contributing to the labor shortage. A ton of people left the workforce during 2020, and many of them still haven’t returned. A lot of the pre-pandemic jobs are returning, but not everyone wants to go back to those jobs. Some people have ongoing childcare and caregiving responsibilities. Some retired early. Some don’t feel safe going back. Some have decided to reassess what they want to do, and don’t plan to return to their old jobs/industries. Workers want better wages, better working conditions, and better work-life balance – and now they have the negotiating power to demand it. There’s many mismatches of skills, in which employers are looking for different skill sets than what available workers have. Now we also have the “Great Resignation” boom, with people resigning for better jobs, but that’s not fixing the labor shortage because it’s just moving existing workers around.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Oh, and a lot of people moved during the pandemic. So some cities and geographic regions are really hurting from out-migration.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          And many people who did not die are still fighting long covid. Some of those people may never be able to go back to very physical jobs from food service to facility maintenance to nursing, and more.
          Their friends & families have good reason to avoid high exposure roles now too.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I went to the tire store that I have been using for years and the gate was locked. I parked on the side of the road and walked on to the property. I found someone who said, “We can’t open because no one reported for work today. They say they are making more money on unemployment than they do working.”

        Indeed, I ran into a friend who manages a repair shop and he said that he was making almost as much as when he worked. He felt it was not worth it to go back to work.

        I am of the last of the boomers and my friends are commenting, “Gee, I was going to retire in another year. But I decided why not retire now? I won’t have to navigate the whole Covid in the workplace stuff and I can stay home and be safer. So why not retire now.”

        We are witnessing a huge change in our country and how we think about work. What’s going on now will cause many a book to be written for years to come.

        1. ThatGirl*

          The extra unemployment is coming to an end if it hasn’t already, and beyond that, if someone truly is making more on unemployment, to me that says the employer isn’t paying enough!

          2. Anony vas Normandy*

            Add to that the fact that
            A: the extra unemployment was $300
            B: if you’re on unemployment, you have to provide proof of job-seeking
            C: if you turn down a job offer, you have to be able to prove it wasn’t a reasonable offer (too far below your previous level, etc)

            Then those employers complaining about people choosing not to work are full of it. They’re either not offering jobs, or at a rate of pay so low that unemployment won’t ding a person for refusing it.

            1. Brandy*

              My BIL had an opening. 44 applicants. 5 offered an interview. 0 showed up. Their email from him was “proof” they were “searching for a job.”

              Complain about a living wage, perhaps, but the government was paying people $22/hr to not go to work. That’s significantly over what people are talking about with a “living wage,” especially in my area.

              1. pancakes*

                These numbers could just as well indicate that your BIL’s business has little success in attracting and/or identifying qualified candidates. Simply reciting them doesn’t supply context for them, let alone make them compelling evidence for what you’re claiming.

        2. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

          That’s baby boomers retiring early, and people leaving the paid workforce to care for partners or other relatives with long covid. And some who haven’t quite recovered from covid and saying “I’m retiring early” because that feels like a choice, in a way that “I thought I was recovered, but I’m not healthy enough to work anymore, and may never be.”

          Those aren’t specific to baby boomers, of course, but someone in her thirties whose doctors say maybe she’ll be able to work again, in four or five years, can’t call it “retirement.”

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      The places where I’m seeing massive hiring and therefore a “shortage” are typically low-paid work: food service, hospitality, warehouse workers, etc. What I am seeing is a surge in gig work and I speculate that people who were forced out of their food service jobs transitioned to gig work and don’t want to go back…yet, maybe never. The warehouse work at least in my area is picking up massively because of how many people order online these days. The problem is that cost of living, especially rent/housing prices, has increased dramatically and therefore the low-paying jobs that people couldn’t live on before the pandemic, are even less able to cover the bills. Also, a morbid thought… death; those most likely to have died are low income workers who couldn’t afford to stay home or afford health care. They aren’t coming back to their jobs.

    7. Bethie*

      Personally, I think its not so much an employee shortage overall, but what types of jobs are not getting applicants. With DoorDash and other “work for yourself” companies, with people going back to school, with people moving to new jobs and people moving into those jobs….would anyone really want to work retail or service industry jobs and deal with the public? During a pandemic? In my town Amazon built a new facility – paying a minimum of $15 an hour. Who wants to go deal with the Karens when you can go get paid more and have a set schedule?

      1. Paris Geller*

        Came down to see if anyone said this. One would hope that potential employers would care about people dying just for you know, humanity and compassion, but 650,000 people dying is not good for the economy.

        1. Malarkey01*

          And excess mortality was way over 650k. Add it people that are still unable to work from long haul CoVid and there’s a large group missing from the workforce, even when accounting for the older age of early victims.

          1. Ama*

            Not to mention all the parents where one has had to quit their job to take care of the kids. I know a lot of schools are back in person but there’s still areas where that isn’t true or where kids with medical issues are still virtual.

            1. Fran Fine*

              Or where parents decided to opt out of in-person school altogether because they don’t think it’s safe and there’s no virtual option, so they decided to homeschool their children.

            2. Hallorie*

              Or kids are back in school but keep getting sent home for 10+ days to quarantine after a close contact. I have no idea how working parents are possibly juggling this without getting fired or burning through all their vacation/sick leave/etc.

        2. HereKittyKitty*

          I was just about to say that. Looking at yearly data from the CDC on Covid deaths, all sexes, 140,583 people died ages 18-64 in the USA. There’s a lot of factors- wages, safety, people moving into different industries, but I feel like a lot of people are forgetting the sheer amount of people that passed away the past year.

      2. pancakes*

        Particularly in the restaurant industry, which I see some people talking about the turnover in. There is some interesting research on that out of UCSF, among other places. UCSF found a 60% increase in mortality for line cooks during the pandemic, for example, versus 22% for everyone overall.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        With all these losses there comes a ripple effect, as the surviving friends and family find themselves thinking long and hard about what in life is important and what is not important.

        If we think of each person we have lost as having on average three people who were close to them (the average could easily be greater) then we are not just talking about x number of deaths but we are talking about 3 times x number of lives that have been seriously impacted and forever changed by the loss of their loved one.
        This looks more like a tidal wave.

    9. Frideag Dachaigh*

      I saw a comment online a couple months ago that stuck with me- though I don’t know the full statistical/economic background implications to know how much this contributes to overall shortages: yes there is a shortage of people who want to work certain jobs, and a shortage of jobs that will pay a living wage- but the world has also lost 4.5 million people over the past year and a half, with many many more unable to work due to long-haul symptoms. Even excluding those that were retired or not working, it really seems likely that at least a portion of those shortages have to be due to a sudden loss of a lot of people that no one expected or counted on.

      1. Gracely*

        Also, there are people who want to work, but don’t feel it’s safe to work. Immune-compromised people make up like 3% of the US population. That’s over 9 million people. Some of those people are children, some probably WFH or are retired, but that’s another sizeable chunk of the population a lot of people forget about.

        I personally know several people that’s true for. Even with the vaccine and the boosters for the immune-compromised, it’s still a risky proposition if their prior work involved close contact with people (especially in states with no masking mandates, etc.). Those people probably *will* return, but not until the vaccination rate is something much higher than it is now.

    10. pancakes*

      “Everywhere” isn’t going to be on-point due to the nature of what you’re asking—clearly it’s a massive generalization—but neither are anecdotal responses on a blog. This is not how well-formed assessments of the labor market are made. There are some good labor journalists out there – why not read their work instead?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        That’s a little extreme. This is a very interesting topic for many people and I like hearing the points of you from people who I have been communicating with on this website for several years. You yourself commented more than once, so I suspect you understand the appeal.

        1. pancakes*

          My point wasn’t that there’s no appeal or interest in discussing these things – my point was that it’s not sufficient. Asking people for anecdotes is not an effective substitute for being well-informed. I’d say the same thing about relying on TV news. People find it enjoyable, but if they think it’s sufficient to keep them informed they’re badly mistaken.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            There is room for research and journalism and open discussion among amateurs. It sounds like you did not intend it the way I read it, which was as criticism for opening the discussion at all.

            1. pancakes*

              Of course there is room for both, but it seems abundantly clear to me that people who are fond of making massive generalizations generally don’t also make a point of being well-read, or well-versed in nuance. Likewise people who affect to speak authoritatively about broad topics based solely on their personal experience, as several people in this thread have done. To say there’s room for both is beside the point that both approaches aren’t of equal value in understanding the world around us.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      For myself and in my own area, I see plenty of well-paying work around. But. It goes by word of mouth and in one-on-one conversations. This is interesting because our area really does not see boom/bust cycles. We are usually left behind when it comes to good economic times but conversely, when the economy goes bust, we seem to just continue on. Now construction is up and that in turn triggers a lot of other businesses into an upturn. There are discernibly more vehicles (work vehicles) on our roads to the point that people routinely comment to each other.

    12. Tabby Baltimore*

      Another reason that I suspect is driving workers from their jobs–especially those working in retail, restaurants, and non-profits–is the likelihood that their company/restaurant/non-profit is circling the drain, financially, and want to get out before the ship sinks. I hate to say it, but I’ve concluded from reading this blog for the last 5 years that a lot of small businesses in the U.S. were not/are not well-run, and so the pandemic is just hastening their demise. A business that’s gone out of business will not be hiring.

      1. pancakes*

        There is an interesting article in the SF Chronicle this week that I haven’t finished reading yet—it’s interviews with six people who left the restaurant industry—and that is indeed what some of the interviewees said. It’s called “Those Who Left,” by Tanay Warerkar, Janelle Bitker, and Elena Kadvany.

      2. Hallorie*

        I left my mid-size non-profit because they went through a round of lay-offs for a year; after they were “done” laying off, they fired everyone in a certain department and outsourced that work to an outside vendor; and, then they started talking about plans to cut group health insurance and have employees buy their own plans. Then, they announced that all COVID precautions were indefinitely lifted and everyone was expected to be back in person for everything, including mandatory massive get-togethers in small, indoor spaces with food, social time, and small group breakout sessions. So, great, if you’re not going to lay me off or fire me, you’re going to end my health insurance and then threaten to fire me if I don’t attend a superspreader event that could land me or a loved one in the ICU. Hooray!

      3. Chaordic One*

        With many small businesses, it isn’t necessarily that they are badly run, but that over time the marketplace has changed. Sometimes there just isn’t that much demand for their services any more. Sometimes they can’t compete with larger businesses. Sometimes they can compete, but they need to redirect resources into marketing and advertising in order to get enough business to remain viable and that can be problematic. There are an awful lot of reasons why even a well-run business may not be financially viable.

    13. Vesuvius*

      With regard to my field, in particular, a lot of mid and small-sized companies are truly horrible about work-life balance. I can’t speak to every field, but I know my field often has high turnover even without the pandemic making life worse for everyone. Work-life balance, you ask? (You are expected to do a lot of unpaid OT depending on your job description, and it is not always balanced out by benefits). If you aren’t going for a project management position, you often change what you’re doing. In my (limited) experience a lot of these places hire, work people into the ground, rinse, repeat. I’ve met several staff-level people who quit bad jobs within a year and went back to do something else. This is for competitive reasons (they have to be cheaper than bigger competitors, who can afford to invest in staff) and non-competitive ones, though, so I’m honestly not sure. I know you have to see how it works, boots-on-the-ground, for at least a year for places that pay well with good work-life balance to get anywhere. Or you need a masters’ degree, but often as not you need both.

      I left my mid-sized employer (private industry) over burnout and medical problems induced by working 50-60h/week and being harassed and abused by management and subcontractors. In jobs where you have to face angry, irrational people who are willing to scream at you for hours on end about one thing or another (i.e. restaurants, hospitality, service industries, construction), it’s hard to want to stay. I resigned without anything lined up because I was desperate. I think places like this are the ones with the bigger employee shortage occurring — if you know you can do better, you move on. This is, again, speaking from my limited experience.

      1. Alternative Person*

        Yeah, my industry in my area has been engaged in a race to the bottom for the past decade or so and it sucks. Like you say, ground people down till they burnout, rinse, repeat. Even the better companies (including mine) in the area are moving to functionally permalancing contracts, barely keeping up with cost of living and organizing away coordinator and supervisory positions. Most people aren’t going to want to stay in those jobs if they don’t see a path forwards/upwards. Add in clients who want silk purses out of sow’s ears and well, of course people don’t stay.

        One of my co-workers gave what I thought was a very pessimistic outlook on where the company is going and while I don’t think it will get as bad as he said, it definitely makes me cynical to both the company and the industry as a whole, especially when it is very clear that companies force people to come in to work despite of the current situation, whilst we can’t do things like say, take a mini-break a few cities over.

    14. anon librarian*

      We cannot hire or keep quality staff. I work for a non-profit – a city library.

      They raised the starting pay to try to improve the pool of applicants. But they did not raise current staff pay (beyond normal annual raises) so current staff are leaving because they make the same or less hourly than new staff who don’t have any skills yet. And most jobs are part time and we don’t provide a consistent schedule – basically staff are pawns to be moved around time slots with fairly short notice. That means many new staff don’t stay because they basically cannot have lives outside work and they want full time jobs.

  9. Justin*

    So, since I’m going back to the office next week, I figure I could start posting in these threads again.

    I mentioned this yesterday, but I got much more in tune with my own neurodivergence as well as what my strengths and weaknesses are. My open office situation is particularly bad for me, but I am going to try and find ways to really play to my strengths of occasional hyperfocus. I’m going to ask if my colleagues (who I really don’t like, but maybe they’ll be polite) can let me know via our Teams if they need me rather than popping up behind me. The stressful of having to always be ready to talk to folks was something I didn’t realize was a lot of work for me in all my years in the workplace.

    Additionally, I’m just done saying false hellos and giving surface smiles. I’m not rude, I’m just going to focus, and will hopefully engage more effectively this way. Essentially, despite putting a mask on all day, in another way I will be taking my “neurotypical” mask off. So basically, I’ll let you know here how it goes from week to week.

    1. foolofgrace*

      I’m all for working with your strengths and weaknesses, but I’m unclear on what you mean by not saying false “hellos”. I don’t think you mean to just ignore when someone says “hello” to you. I’m just curious.

      1. Justin*

        I do not mean that. I probably shouldn’t have used the word “hello.” I really just mean more small talk or anything that could be disingenous.

        1. Very anonymous thank you*

          Thanks for clarifying. I don’t mind people who are work-focused and otherwise silent, but I find I need at least “hi” on first contact for the day. Otherwise it feels like I’m getting the silent treatment in grade-school/middle-school or a bad relationship.
          By the way I’m also fine with people saying “I’m not much of a conversationalist” and leaving them alone except for work.

          And I highly recommend a mirror behind your monitor to show you the common paths of approach. Learned from my hyper-startle co-worker.

    2. All the words*

      Saying “hello” to someone is acknowledging their presence. That’s all. A curt nod is adequate if one doesn’t care to verbalize. It doesn’t require phony cheerfulness or affection. Ignoring a person’s existence is commonly perceived as a snub. Refusing to acknowledge people isn’t a passive act.

      There are reasons social ostracization was often the harshest of punishments a community would mete out.

      1. Justin*

        Whoa whoa no I didn’t mean ignoring hello or not acknowledging people. I meant that I’m not going to do a lot of the weekend-catch-up type stuff that I was always bad at. I’ve never ignored anyone in my life.

          1. Justin*

            Yeah, it’s a team where that’s sort of common, but I think I’ll be okay if I don’t really try so hard like I used to.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      Part of working in an office is being nice and acknowledging others exist. I’m not encouraging you to engage in chit chat if that isn’t your thing, but it is actually rude to ignore someone who speaks to you.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah i really worded this wrong. I am not going to ignore people. I meant I’m not going to go out of my way to make small talk.

        Though I would quibble with that being “nice.” It is absolutely polite, though.

        1. HR Exec Popping In*

          Perfect. As long as you are not rude, you do not need to pretend to be someone else. Good luck!

    4. Asper Usual*

      I’m sorry, I know how exhausting it is to be “on” all the time, and ready to potentially be interrupted at any time. I am very fortunate to work from home, and can effectively ‘cocoon’ myself against things and get work done.

      I think it would be worthwhile to ensure you set time aside to socialise with others, just to make sure you stay in with other people. It makes a huge difference to other people. I set aside time where I make sure to socialise with my colleagues, and then I can focus for the rest of the time. I hope you’re able to find something similar.

      1. Justin*

        That’s my plan, actually. There are a few people I really like and I plan to set up times to talk to them/eat lunch with them, etc.

    6. Unkempt Flatware*

      I can’t have people walking up behind me or watching over my shoulder. So I have a mirror placed so that I can see movement behind me and not get startled or I can head off those weird over-the-shoulder people at the pass. I once had someone walk up behind me silently and then slowly and loudly bite into a Snyder’s pretzel. When I turned around with utter disgust on my face, he was shocked that I would have a problem with any of it. Gah.

      2. allathian*

        Yeah. AFAIK I’m reasonably NT, but I definitely hate people sneaking up behind me. At the office, I sit in a two-person room, we sit back to back and have a 5 ft cubicle wall between us, so the risk is low. I can feel my shoulders hunching just at the thought of having to sit with my back to a door or a corridor, where people walk behind me all the time, a pretty standard setup in cubicle farms and open offices.

  10. Ann O'Nemity*

    What shoes are you wearing to the office these days? Now that dress codes have relaxed, most of my pre-pandemic shoes are dressier than necessary, not to mention more uncomfortable! I’d love to hear your recommendations for great shoes!

    1. avocadotacos*

      I have a pair of black slip on shoes that look like dress shoes if you’re not investigating closely, but feel more like sneakers than anything else (though I wouldn’t use them to play sports). I also had my cowboy boots re-heeled, in my region they count as work appropriate shows and are very comfortable and easy to work in. This was my first time getting work done on shoes instead of buying new ones, and I recommend it for any existing shoes you really like! The most comfortable dress shoes I know of are Clark’s, but it sounds like you can use something even more casual.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I have a pair of Allbirds (I got the dressier looking ballet flats) that are *great* – they’re not cheap, but they’ve held up well, they’re washable and very cute. I wear them with dark skinny jeans and a nice top. One caution of advice, the ballet flats don’t really stretch and they’re kinda snug, so if you’re between sizes, size up.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        I’ve wondered about Allbirds! I see the ads for those, Rothy’s, and Tieks on my social media accounts. My feet are a little wider with a high arch/instep, so some ballet flats just don’t work for me. It doesn’t mean I can’t wear them at all, I just have to be more careful finding a good fit.

        2. Slipping The Leash*

          I found a pair of flats by Dansko (the lovely company that makes killer kitchen clogs) — totally plain black leather, slightly pointed toe — they are super comfortable, would be a little too dressed-down for a full on suit, but fine for any lesser office outfit. Also — it’s fall — flat soled leather boots.

        3. ThatGirl*

          I actually requested them as a Christmas gift a few years back; I did some digging for reviews and comparisons between the Allbirds and Rothys and settled on the Allbirds. I know people who love Rothys, too, but they’re just a bit more expensive.

        4. Paris Geller*

          I’ve never tried Allbirds or Tieks, but I love my Rothy’s! I have. . . uh, several pairs. I also have wide feet and they’re great for that — they have pretty extensive sizing, though they do run a bit small so I’d size up half a size if you decide to look into them, at least for the flat & point ones.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Yeah, the sneakers and some slip-ons are wool, which stretches; the breezers (I just went and looked up the name) are eucalyptus and don’t. They have a bit of give, but they don’t stretch.

      3. Blomma*

        Do the Allbirds flats have as much support as the athletic shoes? I have one pair of the wools shoes and one of the eucalyptus shoes that are really comfortable and provide the support I need. I have been wondering about the flats though…

        1. ThatGirl*

          I haven’t tried the Allbirds athletic shoes. I’ve worn all manner of flats and pumps from ridiculously cheap to nicer dressy brands like Allbirds and Naturalizer. For ballet flats, the tree Breezers are pretty supportive, but I think it’s important to compare them to other ballet flats. They’re not Skechers or Naturalizer; I wouldn’t go for a long walk in them. They’re comfortable for work and my feet don’t hurt after walking around the office.

    3. Waffle Cone*

      I bought a pair of Sketchers woven black flats – they look super dressy but are comfy af. Highly recommend. Also Allbirds flats, but they’re a bit expensive.

    4. Crylo Ren*

      Pre-pandemic I wore a lot of low- to mid-height block-heel shoes – if you search “block heeled pumps” on Target the first few results are what I wore.

      Post-pandemic I’ve been wearing a lot more flat sandals and my one pair of Rothy’s points – I just can’t be fussed with wearing any kind of heel anymore. Though, that may have more to do with the fact that I got pregnant right around my return to the office in June, so my tolerance for uncomfy shoes is a lot lower!

      FWIW, I work at an extremely casual company where people generally wear things like Birkenstocks or Tevas on a regular basis and no one bats an eye.

    5. CTT*

      I hate shoe shopping so I am wearing the same thing as before – luckily black ballet flats can be dressed up or down!

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Hot Chocolates? I LOVE mine. I have flats. It took me 4 -6 wearings to finally get them stretched over my wide foot and growing bunion!

    7. JustaTech*

      I’m wearing the same Ecco 7 sneakers (in metallic gold) that I was wearing in the Before Times, but I work in a lab so it’s safety first, comfort second, looks third.
      (I actually need to get a new pair because I hardly wore my boots this winter and I think these sneakers are dead and starting to give me foot issues.)

    8. Ann Perkins*

      I’m a big Rothy’s fan. Points and loafers are nice enough for business attire, but comfortable and washable. My Allbirds are incredibly comfortable as well.

    9. Doctor is In*

      Hiking boots, now that it is cooler weather. I work in a medical office with direct patient care. We went casual with Covid and never went back. (Business casual before that).

    10. Hotdog not dog*

      Our dress code has devolved to “please don’t wear pajamas to work,” so I have been wearing sneakers or flip flops with my jeans and t shirts. Even so, I could easily win a “best dressed” contest if we had one!

    11. Siege*

      I wear a 13 women’s (currently wide due to cardiac issues) which limits my options. I’ve been wearing a pair of Clarks sandals that are about two years past replacement for spring and summer, and alternating with Torrid’s flat-heeled boots in fall and winter. The boots aren’t the best quality, but at my size there are not a lot of options, and the last time I checked Nordstrom Rack they were doing 3 inch skinny heels, which I can’t wear any longer due to about a dozen ankle and leg issues from RSIs and the above-mentioned cardiac issues. But they are pretty comfortable. I’m not really feeling the Clarks, though; part of why these need to be replaced is that the inner bed collapsed into the insole so I get this very uncomfortable pronation when I wear them and they exacerbate my other physical issues pretty quickly. But we’re still WFH (I think at least until February) so it didn’t seem worth it to spend the money on new sandals when I wear them so rarely – I’m maybe up to 4 days leaving the house on busy weeks. So mostly I wear Tempur-pedic slippers that I hate – the sole is so spongy I feel disconnected from the ground and unsafe when I walk. Do not recommend.

      I excitingly splurged on a 2″ block heel boot that will arrive tomorrow. TBD whether I’m going to fall off it and break my ankle or actually be able to wear it.

      1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

        I am a 12WW, currently rocking a pair of Dunham men’s sandals. They’re not the prettiest things, but they’re well constructed and they FIT.

    12. Belle of the Midwest*

      Ann Klein sport flats. Look dressy, feel sporty. I have worn them for years and years. the only other shoes I ever wear are my exercise shoes, Clark sandals, and a pair of Birks.

    13. SpicyFriyay*

      I wear flats in the car, but have sort of taken work as a like “this is my only chance to wear my fun shoes anymore” opportunity lol. I don’t go out to anywhere I’d wear heels anymore (not eating indoors or going to indoors bars, def not going to clubs etc. etc.) so I’m just having fun mixing fancy shoes creatively with less fancy outfits! I feel so #fashion with the mix of styles, it’s working well :).

    14. Haha Lala*

      I love my Toms! I have a couple pairs of their flats (julie style) and they are super comfy once broken in, but still dressy enough to go with a suit when needed. And I’m currently wearing the classic Toms, but those are more casual than what I can get away with everyday.

    15. I like cute shoes*

      Hotter shoes. They’re not cheap, imported from UK, but they last really well & come in wide and extra wide and are very supportive. They’re like travel waking shoes. Look online. They tend to have some grandma shoes, but you can find some cute Mary Janes and other flats.

    16. HR Exec Popping In*

      I’m going with sneakers. I can put on long pants but I can not put real shoes back on. I’ve spent the majority of COVID in slippers for goodness sake!

    17. Trisha*

      Croc dress shoes. They come in a bunch of colours and styles and don’t look like the traditional clog crocs. When they need to be cleaned or they stretch too much and get loose, you can run them through the dishwasher! Super comfortable and love all of the colours and patterns.

    18. rarely comments*

      I recently fell in love with Ecco sneakers! They’re pricey (like $100+ for a pair), but super comfy after a few wears and aren’t too narrow. I have stupid small feet (size 5/35) that are a tad wide and these are amazing. I’ve given up on comfy flats (sooooo hard to find; you name it, I’ve tried and returned it) and heels. Now just trying to find cute booties for fall that don’t pinch and aren’t too big.

    20. Cute Li'l UFO*

      I have a taste for high end shoes but a fair number of my Ferragamo flats are second hand if that’s not a problem for you. One of my other favorite pairs I picked up new were my Sperry Top-Siders. I have a platinum leather pair and they are straight up sneaker comfortable.

      I found Toms (classics and the ballet flat) a little too delicate for my gait, but they are comfortable. I have a little bag of shoes I need to get repaired and I’m so ready for it. New soles and heels!

    21. Sasha Blause*

      Anything that feels as much like nothing as possible. My toes and forefeet started reverting to their natural shape so I’ve reverted to my hatred of foot-corsets, oops I mean shoes. Vibram Five Fingers V-Soul for the end of summer, and it’ll be Lems Nine2Five once the weather gets cooler.

  11. I don’t want to be fired*

    How do you decide if you should take a new job? I’ve recently been offered a job that comes with a substantial payrise ($30,000) and more responsibility but feel I may not be able to do the job well. The last time I was in a similar role I was fired and part of me feels like I wasn’t supported by my manager and that caused quite a lot of trauma but part of me thinks perhaps no was actually bad at the job and deserved to be dismissed.

    My current role is more like a consultant role. It’s quite strategic – which I’m good at- and I feel this role would be more operational and having to execute the strategies that I know well in theory but have never had direct responsibility for putting into practise.

    Any advice appreciated

    3. spinstah*

      Ask for another meeting with the hiring manager! There should be a way into a conversation about how they’d support you without making them think “uhoh, we should pull this offer.” They’ve made the offer, they want you on board, they should be open to talking in a little more detail about things that can get at what you anticipate you might need. Depending on what that is, you might ask questions about their availability and details of how they work with their direct reports, or professional development opportunities so you can make sure you’re completely up to date on best practices, or resources for using complex business systems, etc.

      I did this exact thing recently (though for different reasons) and the hiring manager was very willing to talk to me again. And the conversation felt much different than the interview, more like how I think it’ll be to actually work with her.

    4. Sunflowers*

      Ask the hiring manager what kind of support they will provide you. Ask what “success” looks like for someone in that role so you can determine if you could meet those expectations.
      Think about your past experiences- do you enjoy implementation work? Or do you prefer the strategic work only. How much of the job is likely to be strategic vs operational?
      Are there others on the team doing related work who could support you?
      These are the kind of questions I would ask.
      Maybe if you have a trusted person who knows your work and skills, describe the new job and ask their opinion.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Put the money to one side for a moment. That’s a nice little pot of money and it can make a person feel like they SHOULD take the job, because who doesn’t want more money.

      Do you want the job?
      See, no one does a job well in the beginning. But because they want the job they apply themselves in multiple ways in order to grow to fit the job. Are you willing to do the work necessary to grow into the job?

      I don’t blame you if you say NO. I have reached a point in my life where I catch myself thinking, I just don’t want to work that hard anymore. My era of 12-16 hour work days is OVER. There are other reasons why people say no. Some people work to live as opposed to live for work. Other people have life commitments that are more important to them.

      Part of deciding to take a new job is deciding to put the extra energy into the learning curve. In thinking about the extra energy, where does that put your thoughts?

  12. JHunz*

    I’ve been a software engineer for a while now. What is relatively new is being a lead software engineer and being expected to head up a small team of engineers. My technical skills are strong, I’m good at explaining things, I’m decent interpersonally, but I don’t feel like I really know what I’m doing leading a group of people.

    One of my goals for the next year is to take some sort of leadership training course. Does anyone have any recommendations for one they’ve done in the past that helped them out? I’m not looking at management track, so something focused on a small team would be ideal.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Watching this with interest, since that’s pretty much what my current role is. I’ve read a lot of the archives here, and I try to watch what other people at my company do and imitate what works (and avoid what fails), but I’ve never had any formal training.

      That said, the biggest differences when I’m the lead rather than an individual contributor are the need to make sure my manager is in the loop with where the team is in terms of scheduling (on track, ahead, behind) and resources (just right, too much work, not enough work), as well as being the one to schedule and lead any necessary meetings (decompositions and retrospectives, mostly). And that all needs to get done while still being a technical contributor on the project in question as well.

    2. spinstah*

      Not a course, but Rands in Repose is a great blog that talks about this kind of stuff. It’s written by a guy who went from being an engineer to leading engineers. It’s my other favorite management/leadership read, even though I’m not an engineer.

    3. Sunflowers*

      I’m taking a leadership course through Coursera from the University of Michigan. It’s excellent.
      5 courses in the “Leading People and Teams” specialization.
      There are also a ton of courses on LinkedIn Learning.

    4. JustaTech*

      My spouse said that reading “Managing Humans” was useful when he started, well, managing humans and not just servers. (He’s also had a lot more management training through his work.)

  13. No Tribble At All*

    Objectives on resumes are out of date and clunky when networking, right? Especially if I include that information in a cover letter or intro email?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually skip over objectives and summaries and go straight for what the candidate’s experience is.

    2. Sleet Feet*

      Yeah if you prefer to have something there a summary is better but you can also leave it off.

      I’m curious why you are doling out cover letters during networking. That’s odd.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Ah, in this case I’m having someone pass on a resume to a coworker, who might be hiring at some point. So I’m definitely not giving a full cover letter! But I’d probably say something like “hi X, I’ve worked with Y, I’m interested in the Z that you do” which is basically a summary.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      Leave them off.

      A lot of the ones I’ve seen are so general (“I want a job where I can use my talents” blah, blah, blah) or so specific, I have to wonder why they are even applying for a job trimming a capybara’s toenails.

      A resume is a marketing document, pure and simply. If it doesn’t help you market yourself, it doesn’t belong on there.

    1. JHunz*

      I think it’s okay and sometimes even expected. It’s a lot harder to land a job before the relocation, although Alison has posted tips about making it easier a number of times.

        1. Delta*

          Then you’re likely better off to wait until you relocate. That way you’re able to interview more easily and not have employers push your resume aside because you’re out of state.

    3. Sleet Feet*

      Not sure what you are asking.

      Being unemployed makes it harder to get a new role. Sometimes spouses separate until the other spouse can find a job. Sometimes the spouse tags along and is unoloyednfor a while. What works best for you is a personal decision. Both approaches are common enough. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

    4. Taryn*

      Of course it is. You’ll have a much harder time finding something when you’re out of state anyways- so go ahead and focus on supporting your spouse and coordinating the move, put in your notice, move, and then focus on finding work once you are there. “My spouse got a great offer in this state” is a totally acceptable answer to “Why did you leave your previous job?:

    5. Uranus Wars*

      As long as your spouses income can support you I don’t see why not. I did this. It took me 4 months to find a job but we were ok with that. Trying to search for a job from 1,000 miles away would have been to difficult (for me).

  15. Anna*

    I was laid off a few weeks ago and today is the day I receive my last bit of severance and will lose access to the HR portal etc. Am I supposed to get my W2 etc for this year now? Or is the company supposed to reach out to me next year? Want to make sure I have everything I need before I leave.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      By law they still have to mail your W2 to you for tax purposes. I had a similar situation happen to me in an OldJob in that I was let go midway through the year, my former employer physically mailed me my W2 for the year in January of the following year. I believe the deadline for employers to mail out W2s is January 31st.

      1. 867-5309*

        I’ve been laid off three times and as T. Boone Pickens noted, each time was mailed my W2 early in the year following.

    4. Irish girl*

      W2’s dont go out until next year for this year even if you leave a company. You should get it in the mail from your company. Just make sure you have your pay stubs and any info for Cobra and your health benefits if you have that. Same for 401k since you may need to move that.

    5. LCH*

      my former places of employment always send it at the same time they send everyone else’s. just make sure you keep your address updated with them.

      1. Mr. Tumnus*

        +1
        We mail ours out mid-January, and every year we have some returned because former employees didn’t update their address with us. It’s fixable, but it slows things down when they sit down to do taxes and realize they’re missing a W-2.

    6. Teapot Librarian*

      They’ll mail the W2, but if you don’t normally download your paystub, make sure that you keep your last one (at least). You might need the information on it when you’re applying for unemployment. Think about if there’s anything else you might need to download as well.

      1. What’s in a name, anyway?*

        Good advice! And download last plus one since last check often is prorated or includes payouts. The one prior would help you have an idea of your regular paycheck and deductions.

    8. HR Exec Popping In*

      They will likely mail it to you so make sure that they have your current home address and if you move, call them to update your address.

  16. SunnyGirl*

    Hello!

    Employee is turning 71 and MUST start collection pension payments. Employee is still working and has not given any indication they will retire. The pension plan provides a health care plan so that’s not a reason to not retire.

    Part of me thinks this is double dipping. Another part of me thinks, why not? But the employee is barely contributing of late.

    Should we push for a retirement date?

    1. WellRed*

      If the employee is not contributing, treat it as a performance issue. Forget their age and whether it’s double dipping.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      To me the main issue is that the employee is barely contributing. If the employee was doing a full work load, then the so-called “double dipping” isn’t really relevant. However, if lack of productivity is the issue, then might as well push for retirement and use the funds to hire someone to actually do the work.

    3. Littorally*

      I don’t see the double dipping. Okay, they’re required to start taking the pension. Does the pension forbid working? What is the problem with the employee receiving required pension payments and continuing to work to earn additional income?

      If they aren’t contributing, then it’s a performance problem, and treat it like a performance problem. Don’t treat it like they’re trying to get money they aren’t entitled to, because they ARE entitled to their pension and if they are employed they are entitled to receive wages.

      1. asteramella*

        100% agreed. The performance is its own issue. Treating their earned pension as un-earned is miserly.

    4. Retro*

      How would that be double dipping? They earned the pension, so they get that money. They earn their wage/salary, so they get that money.

      Separately, you should very firmly separate the ‘poor performance’ and the ‘everything else’ – in your mind and everywhere else – lest it shine through and you have an age discrimination complaint to deal with.
      Address the poor performance. Being around an age milestone may increase the appearance of age discrimination so you’d ideally loop in a lawyer and have them advise. (Or loop in someone sufficiently senior so that it’s not your fault if it goes wrong.)

    5. Nacho*

      Focus on the “barely contributing” part, not the age part. Treat him or her like any other employee, with meetings and performance plans that address the issues you’re seeing, possibly with accelerated timetables if it’s obvious that they’re not able to contribute at the level you need them to anymore, either because they’re too old or for any other reason.

    6. Ann O'Nemity*

      YIKES. So much of what you wrote here could be construed as age discrimination. The only thing you should be worrying about is this little bit: “the employee is barely contributing of late.” That’s a performance issue that can and should be pursued. Forget everything else you said about age and pensions and retirements.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Ann O’Nemity nailed it. Whether an employee collects additional income – from pension, rentals, side business, family trust fund, lottery – is irrelevant. This is a PERFORMANCE issue. Focus on addressing that.

    7. London Calling*

      I get a salary and a pension (could have retired when of pensionable age but didn’t) and I pay a shedload of tax on the combined incomes. If the person can work and be in receipt of a pension what’s the issue, apart from performance? frankly calling it double dipping sounds a bit mean spirited and as if you want to push this person out because they’re getting more money than you think they should.

    8. SunnyGirl*

      Hello again. You’re all correct – it’s the performance that’s the real issue and source of frustration. No one has properly addressed it in quite some time.

      I actually don’t care about her age. But looking again at my original post, that clearly didn’t come across that way.

      Thank you for that reality check. It was needed.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        In answer to your question, it’s not unheard of for people to fully retire, collect their pension AND work part time or work on special projects for their employer. This happens a lot.

        So yes this means they have two income streams from one employer. But if a pension is thought of as work in the past, then it becomes clearer that they have to be paid for work in the present.

        “Double dipping” would indicate fraudulent activities.

    9. Observer*

      Part of me thinks this is double dipping

      Why? I can’t see the faintest way this could be considered double dipping.

      If this employee is TRULY not contributing, then treat that as a performance problem. But their other sources of income are totally NOT your business. Given your attitude, I really wonder whether your judgement of his contributions is actually valid. You’ve got a lot of prejudice jumping out here.

    10. HR Exec Popping In*

      I don’t understand what your concern is. The employee has earned the pension. And they are getting a paycheck to do actual work so they are earning that as well. You can not tell someone to retire or try to push them into retiring. Are they doing the job? Is their performance acceptable? Those are your only concerns. Not someone’s pension draw.

    11. Admin of Sys*

      Note: there are some places this /is/ double dipping and is actively forbidden. In our state, if you on the state employees and teachers retirement plan, then if you retire, you are expressly forbidden from continuing to work the job you retired from and must take a break before returning to any position at the school. But that may be only because of the state funding, rather than a general rule.

    12. Anonymous technical writer*

      When it was announced that my VerySmallCompany was being bought by TwoVeryBigFish, one of my co-workers remarked “I retired from OneOfThoseVeryBigFish a few years ago. Let’s see how long it takes for them to realize I’m contributing to the VerySmall pension plan and collecting from the VeryBig pension plan.”
      One year, and he retired again, just before the plans merged.

  17. another academic librarian*

    Another Academic Librarian
    Thank you everyone for your advice on how to let go housekeepers who were unvaccinated for Covid-19.

    Turned out I was making much ado.

    I texted that I would no longer be needing their housekeeping service and the I would like to pay them for this week and receive back my key.

    They texted back thanking me for years of employment and that they would let me know a good time that they would come by for the checks and drop the key.

    I have since contracted with a neighbor’s cleaner who is vaccinated as are all of her clients. This cleaner is extremely professional. Provided me with a written statement of her fee, expectations, detailed list of expected work. They will begin bi-weekly then give a recommendation if I should go to weekly.
    One question. Do I continue my practice of paying sick leave, vacation leave, and holiday bonus?

    3. duck*

      Personally in those jobs I prefer an all inclusive higher hourly wage. Then I can decide for myself what happens with sick, holiday and so on matters.

      In my country we can often choose between permanent salaried with benefits or simply a very high hourly rate that comes with no benefits or protections. I actually find the high hourly better.

    4. Alex*

      If this person has her own cleaning business, I think she is the one who sets the terms of her employment, right? I probably wouldn’t think about sick leave or vacation leave unless the person is actually my employee rather than someone providing me a service through her own business.

      But a holiday bonus is always good (and, I think, expected in that industry).

    5. Mockingjay*

      If they are only coming in one day every two weeks, I’m not sure they would expect sick or vacation leave. She provided her contract to you and leave wasn’t mentioned in it. A holiday bonus is a nice touch, though, if you are satisfied with her work.

    6. ronda*

      I think if they gave you their fees, you are fine paying what they ask for.

      on a slightly different thing. I did have my lawn guy come year round even tho I probably only needed during growing season :)

      so if you have to cancel for some duration, maybe still pay your regular rate ?

  18. Sleet Feet*

    Anyone have experience getting better at not hating a boring job when your previous roles were more interesting? Any tactics for staying focused and not being so demotivated is appreciated!

    I am a high level professional who has a great salary and benefits. I was laid off in 2020 from a hospital and decided I was done with working in healthcare. I transitioned to an adjacent industry and am thrilled with the culture of the company. Honestly I didn’t think employers that were this good existed. I discovered working here that I have never been on a team that is appropriately staffed. Everyone here is cross trained and when someone is sick or has a family emergency everyone pitches in. There’s no sniping or pithiness.

    However the work I’m doing is very repetitive and set in stone. It’s a lot of push this button, save that file, email that person the file. Rinse repeat. I don’t get to create any new reports, or do any analyses. I’m busy enough with the work that I can’t pursue interesting side projects. My job keeps me busy full time it’s just not engaging at all. Usually I would automate these processes but due to security controls I cannot automate any of the reports I am running right now.

    I find myself making dumb mistakes. I’ll run and save the file draft the email and then forget to send it. I’ve also just forgotten to run reports a couple of times. It hasn’t been a big deal to anyone yet, but I don’t like that I’m making these careless mistakes. It’s very unlike me.

    So does anyone have experience trying to settle into a role that’s not challenging but is good for them in other ways? I want to grow my family and this is a team I can do that on and balance well. I also have a chronic health condition that was deteriorating while I worked at the hospital (ironic but sadly oh so common) that I’ve been able to work on in this role. I’d rather not switch teams and am hoping to make this work for at least a few years before going into a new role in the company.

    1. Purely Allegorical*

      Following. I just started a new job and the role is going to be very technical and repetitive, and I anticipate making the same mistakes. Would love to hear how people stay motivated through the tedium.

    2. LKW*

      Talk to your boss about opportunities within or across departments. Could be being the functional rep for a technology project or a cross functional process improvement or even improving training materials.

      I was in your shoes, I could do my work with my eyes closed. But, it was important work and I made sure that I kept up with it. But when there was an opportunity to implement some supporting technology, I jumped at the chance.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Sleet Feet did say “I’m busy enough with the work that I can’t pursue interesting side projects” so I don’t know if that would work.

    3. Picard*

      checklists. as someone who is ND and has the attention span of a gnat, I would be lost without my checklists. Every process has a step by step guide and a checkoff task list.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Seconding this. I also have a 3 check rule. I check everything 3 times, because I am bored I get distracted a lot and start drifting away from my work.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I get a kick out of thinking about systems, processes, and workflows. I know you can’t automate, but there are other ways to design manual control-of-error steps into your process. You can also experiment with different ways to plan or approach the workday that will make the most of your ebergy cycles and periods of alertness.

      For me, this is a way of gamifying or making a “project” out of the work, and that keeps me interested.

      1. Sleet Feet*

        I’ll try that gameify approach to the day. Thanks!

        Yeah I tried some manual process adjustments but everything is so locked down. The minor improvements I suggested here and there were turned down because the amount of work it would take to test the process change and update all the manuals outweighs the improvement from the change (and I completely agree). So admittedly I’ve stopped looking for process improvements.

    5. higheredrefugee*

      My current job is very repetitive, I’m analyzing the same laws and regs in every piece of work, though I only do 20-30 pieces of work each month, and only about once a quarter do I deviate from that. The following I share as background to how I remain in my job, and my thought process.

      After 2+ years, it is getting boring some days but I took this job to be able to move back home, help my parents out as needed, and not have to supervise anyone or be responsible for other people’s actions impacting my success. My job offers sick time, generous holiday and vacation time, fantastic health care, and, on days I’m most frustrated, a job that is ONLY 40 hours a week and that does not prey on my mind outside those hours. I’ve never been able to leave work at work, and right now, that’s sufficient to keep me happy. I work out nearly daily, and while working at home, I’m eating healthier than ever and enjoying playing with recipes during lunch.

      So what makes me happy right now is having a super stable job that is truly 40 hours a week and supports my ability to have a broad, happy, healthy life outside of work. So I think that may be what you need to ask yourself – what trade-offs have I made? Are they worth it? What would make it not worth it?

      1. Sleet Feet*

        I’m in a similar position. Very happy with the non work tradeoffs and want to make it work. But I find myself being more and more unhappy with the work.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I supervised people doing repetitive work and it was a common discussion about “how to stay awake”.

      Move around at preset intervals. Even if you think you do not need to stretch, take a minute to stand up and stretch.
      Change the order you do things. Let’s say you start every day doing task A, mix it up, start with task B sometimes.

      Dumb mistakes are the most challenging. In your email example, you could make it a habit to check your draft file periodically to see if anything is left behind.
      In other instances you may be able to set up a system of double checks. Run your reports then go back through and double check to make sure you sent them before moving on to a different task.
      Do you have tasks that you like better than other tasks? If so, great. You can alternate likable task, boring task, likable task, boring task.

      My next suggestion is an odd one. We have to feel a sense of purpose in what we are doing. Food service is hard because you do it all over again the next day- you just keep doing the same thing over and over. It’s hard to find a sense of accomplishment or even a point to the work. If this resonates with you, a tool you can use is Life Goals. Dig into your personal goals, make a chart at home, put it on the wall if need be and make note of your progress in your life goals. THEN, when you are sitting a work trying to keep your brain awake and connected to your work you can remind yourself, “And this job is what allows me to work on my life goals and have success in my personal life.” You can picture the chart or a list of what you have accomplished so far in taking good care of you. This can help.

      From a physical perspective, water, proteins, whole foods like fruit and veggies on a routine basis can help a person to stay connected and engaged with their work. Personally, I noticed if I eat chicken or salmon at dinner my brain works sharper the next day.

    7. cactus lady*

      Would focusing on creative pursuits outside of work help do you think? This is something that has helped me a lot in my professional life, especially when I was in roles where I didn’t have a ton of control over the work I did (sounds like the situation here). I started to need that less at work when I found it in my personal life. It can help with that balance too.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Same here. When I had this type of job, I started self publishing books and short stories – that made my day job infinitely more bearable.

    8. JT*

      Engage yourself in other ways while working.

      Parts of my job are very data-entry. Non-thinking, copy/paste data entry. If I just do that, my mind will wander and I’ll think “oh, I should Google that” or “I wonder what’s happening on FB right now…” every 5 minutes. So I need something else to occupy the thinking part of my brain. I listen to podcasts during these tasks. Podcasts that are fun and entertaining, like podcasts recapping my favourite shows.

      Another thing I do is race myself. Count things. “If I do this many in an hour, that breaks down to x per minute. I wonder if I can be just a little bit faster, or find an opportunity for efficiency, so that I can up it to x per minute and X per hour!”

    9. divinekittycat*

      My job is super super boring data entry… I can’t say I don’t make mistakes ever, but I found listening to interesting podcasts all day helps me focus so much more than anything else I’ve tried. I don’t know if this is an option for you, but pretty much anytime I’m not in a meeting or in training I’ve got my headphones on. My one great fear is running out of things to listen to now! For what it’s worth, I didn’t have much of a choice in moving from my interesting job to my boring one it was either move departments or move out the door, and my compensation and benefits made moving departments the sane choice. I’ve got security (to a point) and that’s made up for the tedium.

  19. RussianInTeaxs*

    Not really a question, but a story.
    I work as a customer sales rep. We are a wholesale business, off the street and via contracts, and as such, I don’t talk to the customers often, it’s all mostly done via e-mails and placed POs. Oh, and if you are one of the “off the street” person, and don’t want to sign a contract, you are in the first come first serve situation re: available inventory, we don’t reserve anything for non-contracted customers.
    Yesterday I got my first Drunk Customer Phone Call. During normal office times too. He is one of the “off the street sales” guys.
    He was ranting for good 10 minutes how we as a company “don’t like him (I personally don’t, but it’s neither here nor there), give his product to other people (you don’t have your product, you have what’s available), discriminate against the customers in the Valley (Rio Grande), how come he does see the product at the other distributors in the Valley (!!!), do we sell them and not him (yes! they have a contract), we are hurting him (he is free to buy from other vendors, no contract, our product is not rare), why don’t I answer the phone when he calls from Mexico (he uses various phones and they all get dinged as spam), and could I please do something! (I cannot).
    In the end he called me “mija”, and hang up. He used to try to flirt on the phone in the “I am flirty and hilarious, can you please give me a discount?” way, but drunk is the first.
    Last year I had to chase him for 3 months to get a late payment, and no, I do not like him.
    Have you ever had to deal with drunk customers or vendors?

    1. Josephine Beth NotAmy*

      Not a drunk customer, but a drunk boss who called late one night to vent. Not an experience I ever hope to have again!

      1. RussianInTeaxs*

        I talked to couple of coworkers and apparently my Drunk Customer is not the only one. Another small company owner calls my company owner occasionally to complain.
        And we have a warehouse in another state, their manager took it upon himself to call our admin on her cell, after hours, drunk, to complain we are not stocking up a lot (supply chain issues!), and we are going to drop them and how can we! We lease the warehouse, comes with the manager, so just like with the customers, can’t do much. At least won’t do much.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Once upon a time, I ran a bar, so I had a lot of drunk customers. :-)

      My vendors were wine reps for a bunch of different distributors, and some of them did too much tasting with their other clients before they got to me on their weekly rounds, and it was not fun. They were lightly buzzed from 11am on, and so they were sloppy by the time they got to me.

      But I’d made it a point to be very firm with them from day one, as far as who ran the store (they often acted like they owned a particular shelf), so it was just second nature to ignore their ramblings. Ignoring their breath was another matter.

      And before you ask – they were never far enough gone that I worried about them driving. They’d just been drinking 2 ounces of wine an hour all day long.

  20. Mbarr*

    Any advice/tips on being a work mentor? I looked through the archives, but most of Alison’s advice is targeted at managers for their direct reports.

    A manager from my old team asked me to help mentor one of their new hires. Apparently the woman (fresh out of graduate school) is having some problems meeting deadlines. I don’t blame her – the managers/teams she works with needs to be babysat A LOT (as in, you CONSTANTLY have to follow-up with them and remind them that data is due, then beat them with a stick after the deadline passes to get the information you need). So sure, I can help pass along tips/tricks I learned for how to deal with them.

    But the other thing the manager asked was for me to help coach the person on some skills – like note taking and basic excel stuff. (The example I was given was that the woman didn’t know how to change the print area of a spreadsheet – who prints stuff anymore? Even I would have to pause and think about it for a second.) This woman has a Masters of Data Science. I sat in on her interview. We know she’s brilliant – she was referred to us by a colleague who was in the same classes as her. The manager told me, “I would hate it if my own manager sat over my shoulder to make sure I’m doing things right, so I don’t want do that to her.” Hence why I’m being asked to help out.

    I think the problem is just that she struggles a bit when having to make excel edits on the spot while sharing her screen. When she’s not sharing her screen, she knows exactly what to do, and is able to get her work done no problem. She’s been with the team for 2ish months now. I’m torn with how to help out with this aspect of things… I’m positive the woman is way more capable than me in Excel. I think she just needs more time to get used to her manager and the expectations the manager has.

    As for the note taking, I told the woman that as the most junior person, she should assume she’s the default note taker. I told her about various software available to her for note taking (e.g. She had never heard of One Note before). I gave her tips and tricks about how I used to take notes, etc. But since I’m not on the team anymore, how do I know if what I’m telling her is being used/helpful?

    1. londonedit*

      That doesn’t sound like mentoring to me, it sounds like training. The way mentoring works in my organisation is that it all comes very much from the mentee – they lead the conversation, they set goals for themselves and they decide what to focus on during the mentoring period. The mentor is there to bounce ideas off, provide advice based on their own experience, and offer support to help the mentee move towards the goals they set. It definitely doesn’t involve actually training people on things like note-taking, and it doesn’t involve someone being put forward for mentoring by their boss. I’d ask her whether she thinks any of this is helpful to her, and maybe focus on telling her that you think she just needs time to adjust to her boss, and giving her any hints and tips that might help her get used to their ways of working.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      I would ask the manager exactly what the employee needs to be better at in terms of note taking and Excel. As you mention, her skills seem to be strong in Excel, but she just needs to have some practice making edits while sharing her screen. Maybe there’s something the manager sees a need for that you don’t, or maybe the employee just needs to be coached to practice so that she’s able to manipulate the spreadsheet on the fly, while presenting about it. (If it is the latter, maybe she is just nervous and forgetting things when put on the spot – in which case, some practice and “cheat notes” might solve the issue.)

      1. higheredrefugee*

        Also, in my org, if we’re sharing screens and making changes on the fly, it is understood that it takes longer with everyone looking as you’re managing the tech and your IMs, etc. all at the same time. You might just need to coach her to take a deep breath and go about it methodically. Or if she has too many people chiming in all at once, maybe direct them to speak one at a time or use IM to make sure folks aren’t repeating each other.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If her problem is that she freezes up when she has to share a screen, then why not have her share a screen with you and practice on not freezing up with you?

      On the other, you can ask her if your tips are helpful. But better yet, ask her what bumps she hit in taking notes this week. They say the devil is in the details. Sometimes people can have a problem with one little thing, but it’s disconcerting enough to throw a bunch of other things off track for them.

      My previous boss was a brilliant woman. She had problems with freezing up if she had to do something on the computer quickly while others waited. But in our private conversations, we found quite a few little things that she stumbled over. The more of those little things we fixed the less she froze up in front of other people.
      It could be that your cohort just needs to keep doing a variety of things and get a stronger feel for the program(s) she has to use.

    4. Jane of all Trades*

      Agreed with others that this isn’t really mentorship, more training. Although for mentorship pointers, I had a mentor at an old job who I’m pretty sure had a monthly reminder to check in with me, and I think took notes on things we’d talk about, and would make a point of following through if he promised to make an introduction/get me on a project, etc.
      For note taking in OneNote, I‘be found the following helpful: bullet 1 on any call/meeting is the attendees, and their abbreviation. If Monica Geller and Chandler Bing are on the call, I will indicate that they are MG and CB. Saves time on noting who said what. If we’re going through a list of things I’m sure to number the list and save the numbered list with the notes so I can always refer back and know the topic we covered – saves time to not have to explain what topic we are covering while we are taking notes. Rather I know we discussed item 1 and decided x, item 2 and covered t, etc. Finally, I color code action items as we progress through the call. My team’s items are green, the other side is yellow. This means that if we go through the to-do points at the end of the call I can immediately summarize who is supposed to do what.
      Just as importantly, if not more – I spend time preparing for calls (rereading notes, last week’s to do list, etc) and I spend time after the call. That’s when I go through my highlighted items and either fire off the relevant emails or calendar them or do whatever else needs to be done. I also keep a running open items list in OneNote, and if applicable I carry any to-do items from the call through to my to-do list.
      Monday morning or Sunday evening I spend some time running through the to-do list to make sure I’m on track. All of these things make it very rare that an item falls through the cracks. Hope this helps your mentee.

  21. Minimal Pear*

    I have a meeting in a little less than an hour where I have to deal with the fact that I made a big mistake at my new-ish job. I didn’t realize that I was meant to be doing a certain task as a recurring thing, and so I’ve missed it for two months in a row. Initially I was just going behind the woman training me and checking what she’d input, and I must not have realized (I unfortunately don’t remember the convos surrounding this) that I was meant to switch over and do the entire task myself. As soon as she brought it to my attention I started trying to make up the work, but I keep running into huge problems and now I have to meet with her to try and get it figured out so I can do this. I made a similar but much more minor mistake earlier, which was easy to fix and wasn’t a big deal. But I’ve been off my game the entire time I’ve been working this job, because I had a death in the family right after my interviews and have been grieving the whole time I’ve worked here. In addition, I am very neurodivergent, and I have that common ND issue of not understanding unclear directions or anticipating every single little step in a task I’m asked to do. Does anyone have advice on how to handle this meeting coming up? Thank you!

    1. Boba Feta*

      Typing quickly in the hopes you see this and it’s helpful:
      Step 1: Take a breath. Repeat.
      Step 2: Sit with a piece of paper and write out anything and everything you can remember from your training, the instructions that were given, what you were shown, etc. Doodle it rather than writing out a narrative if that helps.
      Step 3: Identify where along the way you lost track of the process – e.g. where you were not able to “anticipate a little step” in the assigned task(s). Highlight those or at least make sure they are in your mind.
      Step 4: Make sure you’re still breathing.
      Step 5: During the meeting, use what you wrote and what it helped you identify in terms of the relative success of your training to make specific suggestions on how you will approach things differently moving forward to improve and avoid future similar errors. For example, you can say that you reflected on what has happened and realized you need to take written notes during training (if you hadn’t done that before), or that you would like the opportunity to shadow your trainer while they do a task in a different way than what had happened originally, etc.

      Good luck!

      1. Minimal Pear*

        My comment got held in moderation for a while, so I didn’t see this in time, but it ended up not being too big of a deal! Thanks for the advice. :)

    2. Purple Cat*

      Good luck I hope you see this!
      Deep breath, and just acknowledge the facts.
      “I’m sorry I missed this, I didn’t realize it was on my plate. How do we fix this?”
      Moving on and getting it right is the most important thing, don’t dwell too much on what went wrong in the past.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Unfortunately, my comment got held in moderation for a while, so I didn’t see this. But it ended up working out fine! I did basically say this and it wasn’t a big deal after all. Thank you for the advice! :)

  22. LTL*

    There’s been a lot of talk about a 4-day work week being more productive than a 5-day work week, and more generally about lower working hours increasing overall productivity.

    I’ve heard this applying to business, but does it apply to individuals? Is an individual who works 40 hours a week really more productive than one who works 50 hours a week? I know that no one is actually working for 8 hours straight. But then why do some people end up working 50, 60, 70 hours a week for certain jobs? The 40 hour work week is somewhat performative, but surely every single one of these jobs isn’t just a big show?

    I’m not sure if I’m making sense but I wanted to put this out there. I signed a job offer for a remote position that’s incredibly flexible in terms of hours. But I know I need more rigid boundaries for myself, so I’m trying to work out what the best hours would look like. Obviously I will take cues from the company and my team, but I did want to pose the question about productivity as well.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      You might be conflating “more productive” with “jobs that require 60+ hrs of work as the employee burns out from sheer overload”… simply because there’s more work that physically gets done does not necessarily mean more productive. Heavy workloads have more output – of course – more in = more out. But that doesn’t make it a sustainable workload, and over time overall productivity is going to tank as you lose more and more employees.

      A sustainably productive work week/work load is going to differ by person, so I also think it’s difficult to pin down if that number is 30hrs, 35 hrs, 45 hrs, or if it’s 4 ten hour days or 5 eights, or if it’s 6am to 2pm or 11am to o-dark-hundred.

    2. Sleet Feet*

      For me personally I find that after 45 hours my productivity tanks. If I try to push on and work 50, 60 hours consistently, I will ultimately start to get less done then if I stick to 40 hours.

      For example let’s say a report usually takes me 2 hours to create. If it’s during a 50 hour week it may take me 2.5 hours.

      So a table of hours logged in to hrs work completed for me looks like:
      40, 35
      45, 39
      50, 41
      55, 44
      60, 46

      So I’m clearly getting less productive the more I work. I also tend to have an unproductive 40 hour week where I’ll get maybe 33 hours of work done, when I come back from consecutive OT weeks.

    3. Eden*

      Part of it is also people working at different speeds. I do waste a lot of time at work but I get shit done well, so my 40 hour week (including time wasted and hour long lunches) is plenty productive. Not all of my peers can produce work at the same rate so maybe they end up working longer for similar or worse results.

    4. Ali G*

      The point of the 4-day work week is to work less. You don’t work 40 hours, you work 32. The reasoning is people’s productivity dips after about 6 hours, so forcing people to work 8-10 a day isn’t helpful. Also it forces people to be more efficient with their time. Most articles I’ve read is a big thing that changes is people realize they don’t need as many meetings as they do.
      I work a 35 hour work week. I work a combo of 7 and 8 hour days Mon-Thurs and work about 4 hours on Fridays. We’ve discussed at my job going to a true 4-day work week (32 hours) but don’t feel like we can make that change now. We started with this 4.5 day option (it’s optional for employees) as a start.
      And no, people that work 50+ hours a week are not more productive, but they do comparatively more work. It’s just that a lot of it “emergencies” or stuff that comes up that has to get done now (I am married to one of these people).

    5. Apples*

      I work 30 hours and there’s only really about 20 hours of work per average workweek in most office jobs. I have no idea what the people who work overtime are doing. I’m constantly frustrated that my job docks my pay proportionate to my hours when it is literally visible in productivity stats that I’m doing more than people who work the full week. You could try to come up with some basic stats to measure yourself against and compare them across different working hours.

    6. Amey*

      Oh, a lot of people are not working as productively when they’re working 60 hours. They’re not working 60 hours because this is all productive working time, they’re working that many hours because even after 30 or so hours of peak efficiency and quality, their workload is still so big it can’t be completed in less. And there’s a culture in certain industries for that to be the norm. Most (not all, but the majority) of these people are majorly burnt-out.

      However, many people working 40 hours a week now could probably get the same amount of work done in e.g. 33 if they had a three day weekend to rest and revive – they’re more likely to be able to bring their best, most effective selves to work. At least, I think that’s the argument.

      1. Siege*

        I think mathematically it works out that your last paragraph is correct. When you look at how much time we spend on life-maintenance a week, it blows an entire day of my weekend and sometimes part of the second, leaving me with very little time to relax. A third day materially helps with that, and even a half-day Friday can help with that.

        To go to OP’s question, the times I’ve seen companies expect 40+ hours a week, it’s been times when the job should have been two people’s jobs. It’s very common in smaller companies (and non-profits particularly) to expect longer work weeks because you’re asking someone to do two jobs. I have several friends who’ve talked about how much time they work on weekends and how much time they don’t admit they work on weekends, but they refuse to push back on working on weekends. I work for a union, and you can bet your ass if I’m working over 40 hours a week, I’m getting that time reimbursed per our CBA. Very relatedly, this is the only place I’ve worked that does not expect (or at least reward) you to work 40+ hours. It’s a terrible, terrible metric for “drive”.

    7. Malarkey01*

      Productivity can also be about the best times to work and the length at one time. Just for the ease of example say my job is to process identical widgets that all need the same work and I need to get 100 done a day. I’m very productive in the morning but around lunch and then the afternoon sugar crash I struggle.
      8 am- 11 am I’m flying and get 20 done an hour.
      12-3 I’m struggling to concentrate and get 5 done an hour
      4-6 I want to go home and get a burst of concentration and get 13 done an hour.
      I worked 8 hours plus lunch.
      Now I can set any schedule I want as long as I get 100 done. I know I’m still great in the morning but I also get a “post kids in bed” surge so I decided
      8 am-11 am same thing 20/hr.
      Then I’m going to knock off for awhile, maybe take a walk, do chores, pursue a hobby, pick up kids at school, make dinner.
      8 pm-10 pm I’m back knocking out 20\hr.
      Now I’ve worked 5 hours and done the same output because I did it when I was at my peak and most productive.
      That’s really different than people who work longer because they have more work or widgets to do.

    8. Spearmint*

      In addition to the other points made about burnout and such, frankly I think people spend a lot of time working inefficiently or on low-value projects, and a shorter workweek forces them prioritize their work. I have a coworker who routinely worked 50+ hours a week while most of us work a standard 40. She was doing a lot, but to be honest she took on a lot of projects that were pretty low value relative to the effort required, and she was also very inefficient at the stuff that was important. She definitely wasn’t spending 50 hours a week on core responsibilities.

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      There are jobs (and I am in one) where you are partly paid to be available. From 8 am to 5pm, there must be someone in our office. Ideally two people, so one person has back up. That means that regardless of how effective I am, I am putting in a 40 hour week, a minimum. Some of my work requires silence or I need to “get in the zone” which means I work more than 40 hours, because I don’t want to be obligated to answer the phone and that doesn’t happen until it is after 5pm or before 8am (or on a weekend.)

    10. Dino*

      If I have to be at work more than 36 hours a week for more than 3 weeks in a row, I’m gonna need at least one sick day to recover. I am disabled/ND and work in a field notorious for repetitive stress injuries, vicarious trauma, and cognitively tiring work.

      When I do try to help management and take OT, you can get more hours of me in my chair but my work quality suffers and I physically get wore out, am not able to do the life maintenance things I need to do to perform well, and need unexpected time off to recover.

      So work can have my 36 hours of accurate work under high-pressure conditions with a rested body and emotional regulation, or they can have ALL of the 40+ hours of worse work.

      If I could have a 32 hour work week and still pay my bills I would be *so much better* at my job.

    11. TechWorker*

      Another reason (not covered here and possibly not always clear in the discussions of productivity) is that for collaborative work, or ‘urgent’ work some of those 50,60,70 hours will not be spent productively but that doesn’t necessarily mean you can just shift it all into 30 hours.

      For eg, if something goes badly wrong where I work, I might have to work late to investigate and coordinate with people in other timezones. That work isn’t ‘full on’ in that I’m not fully productive whilst doing it but I also don’t have the option to be like ‘oh I’ll just sort this when I’m at work tomorrow’ :p
      I think that doubly applies to anyone working on things with very tight deadlines – maybe you only have actually 2 hours of work to do on it, but that work only comes in at the end of working day and realistically still has to be done. I’m not saying every job with long hours is purely fire fighting I’m sure it’s not, but some will be.

      Also obviously coverage based jobs are different. If you *need* someone on reception it doesn’t matter how productive they are, you still need to cover any time the office is open.

  23. Medical Mystery*

    Has anyone requested accommodations when their doctors weren’t sure what their diagnosis was? I have some kind of autoimmune condition, that is really affecting my day-to-day life. Apparently, it is not unusual to have to see a rheumatologist for a year or more before getting a firm diagnosis.

    Also, when I ask, should I approach HR first, or my direct supervisor? If it matters, the accommodation I want to ask for is being allowed to work from home one day per week.

    1. JHunz*

      Is your rheumatologist comfortable with documenting that you have some sort of condition that requires accommodation, even prior to formal diagnosis? An actual formal recommendation from your doctor would go a long way in making that request.

    3. Gipsy Danger*

      IME, you don’t need to talk about your diagnosis when asking for an accommodation. You just need a note from your doctor or something stating you are asking for an accommodation for medical reasons. I have worked a couple jobs where the employer actually had a form for my doctor to fill out – it never asked for the diagnosis, just for what accommodations were needed/what limitations I might have.

      I would say, go to HR first, because they’ll arrange things and then tell your supervisor what is happening. When I have needed accommodations, HR knew the procedure and made everything smooth. I would not have necessarily trusted by boss(es) to know what to do, even if they were good bosses otherwise. Generally HR knows how to handle these requests.

      1. stornry*

        This! For ADA accommodation, no one needs a diagnosis just how the condition affects your ability to do the work. Then, in an interactive meeting, you and the boss and HR can discuss what kind of reasonable accommodation you might need in order to do the work. Focus on the work — all they care about is how to help you get it done.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. No worries on a diagnosis. My doc knows I cannot sit for hours on end. I have to get up and move around on a regular basis. He had no problem putting that on paper and never mentioning what is wrong. His letter was accepted.

        1. allathian*

          Mmm, even without any documented illnesses, most people sit too much and could do with getting out of their chairs at least once an hour. I think it’s absolutely ludicrous that you’d need a doctor’s note to get that accommodation. I guess I’m lucky in that my employer encourages frequent breaks even at the office.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            It was a unique circumstance. Sorry, I can’t expand on that. But yeah, ludicrous describes it well.

    4. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      You might get some useful ideas for specific accommodations from the askjan.org Web site, which was linked on an AAM post a week or so ago. (I forget who linked it but it’s a great resource, so whoever you are, thanks!)

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      When asking for the accommodation you need to be clear what the issue is that the accommodation will help address. I understand wanting to work remotely but you should be prepared to indicate why that is needed and have a doctor agree that it is necessary.

      Just as a reminder, as part of ADA the employer can enter into an iterative process and recommend alternative accommodations that would address the issue. For example, an employee is unable to lift something more than 20 lbs. They ask for a hydraulic lift to be installed to handle things more than 20 lbs. The employer can say no, but we will modify your responsibilities so that you do not need to lift things more than 20 lbs.

    6. Can't Sit Still*

      It’s years later and I still don’t have a formal diagnosis for my autoimmune disorder, but my rheumatologist provides all the necessary paperwork for my ADA accommodations. Whenever a diagnosis is required on paperwork it’s listed as inflammatory polyarthritis, which is a symptom, not a diagnosis, but it’s fine for both work accommodations and a disabled parking placard.

      I recommend discussing accommodations with your rheumatologist before going to HR, since they may have suggestions that you haven’t though of yet or for what you might need in the near future. (Some medications have vicious side effects that take weeks to abate, for example, and you might need leave to adjust to them.)

  24. Watry*

    3/4 of my department is out with COVID or in COVID exposure quarantine. Please get vaxxed if you can and haven’t already! I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here, but having two people out of eight running an office that’s open to the public 12 hours a day isn’t tenable and we’re very worried both about that and about our coworkers.

  25. Just Another Anon*

    During an interview recently, a potential employer asked if I was selected, how soon could I start. I live near enough that I could commute for a short time (1 hour to an hour and 20 minutes one way), but wouldn’t want to do so long-term. If I’m offered and decide to accept the job, we’d move about 30-40 minutes closer.

    So, knowing there’s no guarantee we could find/buy a house (especially as thoughtful, intentionally-minded first-time buyers) very quickly, what’s a reasonable timeline to ask for should they offer and I accept?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I would personally choose to start working and deal with the commute until I could move. The housing market seems to be cooling now (thankfully), but if I were the employer I wouldn’t be pleased to hear a potential employee felt they needed to buy a house before starting.

      Think of it this way: you’ll have the two weeks (or however long) of your notice period to start looking, but it usually takes 30-60 days to close on a house. Not to mention how long it can take to find a suitable house and get an offer accepted. I bought my house in 2019 in a cool market and it still took 3 or 4 months to get from contacting a realtor to getting the keys – my first offer was accepted but we had to pull out due to inspection findings, then start the search over, then what ended up being about a 40 day close because the seller needed time to find a new house. I wouldn’t want my new job to be dependent on a variable and unpredictable timeline!

      If the commute is intolerable for more than a few weeks, you could also look into moving into a short term rental in your desired area while you continue the house hunt. The timing of a house purchase doesn’t always line up with life circumstances, apartment lease end dates, etc, so it’s pretty common for people to take a month-to-month or 3/6 month rental. Good luck!

      1. Mockingjay*

        We just bought in a hot market. It took 6 months and 8 failed offers (houses were literally selling in 3-4 hours after the listings went up – by the time we contacted our realtor, these were gone). (We had to relocate otherwise I wouldn’t have budged from our old house – it was a horrible experience.) Don’t count on being able to find something quickly.

        Don’t want to be a downer, but the reality is that in many areas, the housing market is still brutal.

      2. fueled by coffee*

        Yeah, I would suggest looking into short-term rental options (or a year-long lease with a landlord who will allow you to sublet if you do end up finding a house in that time frame) and setting a start date based on that (that is, how long it might take you to find a rental – how long you’re willing to put up with a long-ish commute). You can always buy a house and move after you start working, but I wouldn’t risk missing out on a job offer because of your start date.

    2. 867-5309*

      When I am relocating, I give six weeks but I am usually a renter.
      – Four weeks notice to my current employer
      – Two weeks to relocate

      You can do that and move into temporary housing if you don’t find a place, which you realistically probably won’t, or just give your usual notice and move when you can get it coordinated.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think asking for more than six weeks would make most employers balk, unless there is a large move involved. (I moved literally across the country, so my employer was fine with 3 months, but that was an exceptional circumstance.) I would agree with others- finding a house, closing, all that jazz- you might be looking at a 6 to 8 month process easily. If you don’t know the area well, that’s also a factor.

    4. JT*

      Could you tell them that you’d like to start working in whatever time frame (2-4 weeks from now, etc.) and that you’ll be commuting while you look for a house, and try to negotiate a week of PTO for when you find a house so that you can do the moving without also working/commuting?

  26. Mental Lentil*

    Did anybody see the HBR post about “5 Signs It’s Time for a New Job”? (I’ll post a link in a follow-up comment.)

    Any thoughts? Is it accurate? Did it leave out anything?

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Big mooooood lol. I’d say this accurately describes being stuck in a dead-end job with no opportunities for growth. I like that it points out that you aren’t doing well because you don’t care and no one expects you to do well.

      There are other reasons to quit jobs, of course— there’s the opposite of this scenario, the one where you have too much work, too high expectations, and are running yourself ragged.

  27. Meep*

    I have been with my company for 4.5 years (including an year-long internship). It is a small start-up of less than 10 employees/contractors and was formed in mid-2016 so I am a year shy of being a “founder” but I am the employee with the longest tenure and most knowledge about our product. The Manager of Human Relations is the kind of lady who would dangle “carrots” in front of your face to try and motivate you on top of pretending to be a mental health advocate (by this I mean she encourages vacation days publicly and then goes out of her way to pester people on their day off and will guilt-trip them for taking vacation as “our clients come first” – all well taking week-long vacations every three months and saying she deserved it as she hasn’t had a vacation in “forever”). She made me a lot of promises in my time and delivered on none of it. I have only received one small $2k raise that covered health insurance and the logic behind that was “we are a new company but you will get equity”.

    Well, equity came and it is less than my other coworkers. To give you an idea, the second-longest tenure is 2 years while the shortest is 3-months. Everyone got stock. The other for less than 3 months. So I decided to start job searching. But to prove to myself that despite all the praise, I asked for a raise for the first time in 4.5 years – meanwhile, my coworker with the second-longest tenure had raises without even asking.

    She wasn’t happy I asked for a 25% pay raise, but the owner of the company agreed with the case I made. Cue dragging her feet for four weeks as I tried to get it in writing (or even an agreement to discuss the raise in writing). Well, it finally happened a week ago.

    Now she wants to be praised for “advocating” for me and putting in the pay raise that I asked for. She is also unhappy and thinks because of it I should be appreciative of the stock options and not ask to discuss it with the owner (there is a non-compete, it is a 4-year vesting period, it does more harm than good for me to sign it right now).

    How do I proceed with someone who is telling literally everyone that she fought “tooth and nail” for my raise and I should be appreciative? I am not going to try and flip the narrative, because that would come off as petty and enough people have her number. But I cannot even muster up any fake appreciation for this lady after finally having to fight for what I was promised for years.

    I have an interview today, btw, so good vibes would also be nice!

    1. Nicotene*

      Mm, I guess if it were me I wouldn’t get hung up on being “appreciative” or not. You don’t really know what happened behind closed doors, maybe she did advocate for you (or not). I’d say I appreciated it as often as necessary – that costs me nothing and wouldn’t hurt my pride, personally – but I wouldn’t fawn over her or anything, and I wouldn’t let it stop me from asking for other things I needed.

      1. Reba*

        I mean, you could coolly repeat “I appreciate the raise” and that would be true.

        It sounds like the options stink, I wouldn’t go hard on negotiating them since it’s time for you to move on anyway. Good luck with your interview!

    2. LKW*

      I had a boss that would go on and on about he fought for me to get a raise when I went from part time retail to full time back office. That raise? 50 cents and hour. Even 25 years ago it was an insult. But, I would say “thank you for fighting for me. Now I can make $xxx a year!” basically rub it in his face that he did me no actual favors.

      So come up with some phrases that sound like praise but aren’t. Like “Yeah, after working her for 4.5 years I really appreciate you going to bat for me this one time.” or whatever.

      Good luck on the interview.

    3. HigherEdAdminista*

      I’m not clear from this… is she like a co-owner of this business or is the owner in support of what she is doing? Do they know she pressures people not to take time off or goes out of her way to interfere with their time off? Did they explain why you received less equity or was it the decision of the HR person? Do they know she held off on implementing your raise?

      I have never worked at a start-up, but either the owner is aware and approves, but is happy to have her be the face of unpopular decisions, or this person doesn’t know what she is really like and has him hosed. If he seems unaware, it might be worth mentioning. If this is a relative or something that he has hired, I would say you might be better off looking. If you were underpaid by 25% it sounds like there are a lot of issues here!

    5. RagingADHD*

      You are way too invested in what the HR person thinks and feels.

      You know she’s posturing. Everyone else knows she’s posturing.

      The owner AGREED WITH YOU and gave you the raise you asked for. That means you have clout and she does not.

      Her posturing is no threat to you. Ignore it and evict her from the rent-free penthouse apartment you’ve been giving her inside your head. Focus on your interview, and good luck!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Adding stock options are something close to nothing. I think I would just smile at her ignorance in thinking stock options are a bfd. I guess she will learn at some point… many years from now.

  28. Amber Rose*

    So my old manager was let go last week and this week we had a meeting to discuss how we’re dividing up her work amongst us and how that’ll impact our current work and it was extremely straightforward for everyone except me. Because I don’t have a specific role. We have purchasing, shipping, receiving, procurement… and then me, the “mortar between the bricks” according to the COO. I help everyone, I train everyone, I know a lot of things, but mostly what that translates to is that I float around filling in gaps and I don’t have a specific role. Jack of all trades, master of one (because I’m still the only safety person.)

    Which they hate, because it’s problematic for many reasons, but they won’t define anything for me or let me do so, they just keep adding random stuff into my job description.

    Anyways the short version of this story is I’ve accepted one more role on top of my existing 4 (safety, quality, HR, sales): Defacto database manager. Our procurement/purchasing/shipping people will control physical inventory and I will control digital inventory. I’ve been given the go-ahead to rampage through the database and do whatever I want to fix it.

    I’m happy to have power to fix things, I love power, because going mad without power is way less fun than going mad with power (obviously). I’m less happy that my job is to just take on more and more and more and more and more. Where does it end?! I’d really like to offload some stuff. D:

    1. Purely Allegorical*

      This is a dangerous position to be in. If I were you, I would start writing your own job description of the things you currently do. Add hour estimates to each role. Prioritize the stuff you like. Then go to your manager and say “hey, I know we’ve discussed me being the mortar between the bricks. In practice that’s looked like this rough job description I’ve pulled together — in particular I really enjoy XYZ work and would like to continue doing that and growing in that area. I do want to flag that I’m about at capacity though, so if there are more duties you’d like me to do, let’s discuss what needs to come off this list or what I need to de-prioritize in order to get the higher priority items done.” And eventually this could help make the case for bringing on another team member, should you need it.

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      You sound like an office manager or operations manager position if you are the mortar between the bricks. I agree that you should document all that you do and use that info to research that you are adequately compensated. As for offloading — if you’re going mad with power :-) what’s to stop you from delegating or hiring an assistant? Real speak though, if you document everything you are doing, you may convince them that one of those areas you are covering for needs another person and then you can offload onto that person.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I want to be a manager. It’s a bit exhausting for me to have power but no authority. I’d happily take on all this stuff if I had the title, because honestly I’m good at my job and I basically like doing it. But because I have no authority, I can’t make anyone do anything or hire.

        I’ve tried on three occasions to offload something or other, and every time the person I teach gets promoted into some other role and the job falls back on me.

        I’m too good at encouraging people to step up.

  29. Paralegal Part Deux*

    I had to give an update. I asked for advice on how to get my bosses to hire someone to help out at work since I’m by myself and overworked. Y’all! I went in, laid it all out on the table in a matter of fact way in what I could and could not do, and they hired someone. She starts Monday. It’s part-time, but I will take it! Thanks for the advice! I truly appreciate it.

  30. A Mechanic*

    I’m not really looking for help/suggestions, just wanna vent a little… I am one of two (TWO) women at the branch where I work and… she consistently calls me the wrong name. It’s kinda a variation of my name? Think my name is “Adorabelle” and she keeps calling me “Bella”. (So does one of the other colleagues, but he legit thought “Bella” was my name in the beginning, and these days he’s kinda switching between Bella and Adorabelle, plus he’s like a year from retirement and I don’t see him all that often, so idgaf) I KNOW she knows my name, because everyone else is using Adorabelle, SHE used Adorabelle in the beginning AND she’s the one who does the paperwork… (We’re not all that many people.) So my only conclusion is that… she just doesn’t care all that much? It’s driving me around the bent! On top of that her name is an uncommon variation of a common one and you’d think that result in her taking care to call people the correct name? Everyone else gets addressed correctly, including the guys with unusual (for here) and/or longer names…
    (I have, btw, tried gently correcting her, but it does. not. take. and I don’t want to get more heavy handed because I am rather junior and she has been with the company forever, has connections everywhere and apparently does not do well with other women. Or so the gossip mill has told me.) (Btw, blue collar workers? biggest. gossips. everrrr.)

    1. ferrina*

      That’s annoying. Is she generally a nice person? You said you were gently correcting her, but what if you position it as a favor? “Hey, I know this is kind of weird, but I have a weird reaction to “Bella.” I just love my name and like being called “Adorabelle”. I don’t know, I guess it reminds me of a French painter. Anyways, can I ask that you call me Adorabelle? I’d really appreciate it! Thanks so much!”
      If you and her are generally friendly, she’s just stuck in her ways a bit, this can work wonders. Particularly is there is a slight condescending aspect, positioning it as a favor to you can fluff their ego. And gets you what you want.
      (Note that this doesn’t work when there is active malice)

      1. A Mechanic*

        Honestly, I’d hate doing that – I don’t particularly feel like grovelling to get some basic decency! But also idk that it would work, because some days I get the impression that she does not particularly like me – telling me, specifically, that the working day starts 7am and I should be in work clothes and ready to start at that time… when I was talking to colleagues who equally weren’t in work clothes yet. I am also 10-15min early every day and usually a couple of minutes before 7a in the work shop, unlike my exact equal, who tends to run late (like walking into the changing room at 7.00-7.10a…) AND the law actually requires the time to change to be work time, so… Or picking out me for being on my (work issued!) phone during work hours, while a) I was doing work stuff and b) two of my colleagues regularly spend time on social media during work hours… Sometimes I feel like I cannot win with this woman.

        2. ferrina*

          I was assuming she was generally well meaning, but it sounds like she’s holding you to a different set of standards from your colleagues. If you are literally the only person she’s doing this, it certainly smells like sex discrimination.
          I’d start documenting for a couple weeks just to get some clear dates and times (which you’d likely be asked for), then go to her boss.
          It sounds like the name is just part of a bigger issue (though you can certainly document that you asked her to use your name and she did not comply).

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Is she just doing this to you? How does she treat the men?

          I had a woman boss who hated having female subordinates. She BRAGGED about wanting only men to work under her. omg. She pulled every stunt in the book, like you show here she out-and-out lied to make me look bad.

          I would have reported her because her harassment was based on the fact that I am a woman. But you know what, my give-a-damn died. I left the job instead. Pay attention to the rumor mill they are actually helping you by giving you the heads up on what is happening here.

    2. Samantha*

      Stop being gentle. “My name is Adorabella. Please do not use Bella.” Send any incorrect paperwork back. Correct her EVERY time. She’ll get the hint.

      1. LKW*

        Yup. Every time. And if she asks why “I prefer Adorabella” and if she continues “I won’t be responding to Bella anymore. Please use my full name, it’s what I prefer.”

        Document it if you need to.

      2. LCH*

        agree. possibly she is one of those people who doesn’t respect others when they are too gentle/nice. or maybe not! but what you’re currently doing doesn’t work. anyway, good luck.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        I missed that she was doing this on paperwork too. That is not okay and potentially rises to something to take to her boss if she persists, as I assume it affects your files, accounting of work product, and/or pay. And absolutely correct her in the moment whenever she calls you by the wrong name. “I’m Adorabelle, as I have mentioned many times now.”

        1. A Mechanic*

          Sorry I was unclear, she’s not doing it on paperwork! My paperwork is all correct, happily. I’m just annoyed that she apparently can’t bother with my full name…

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      Yep. Be matter of fact about it. I have a cousin who goes by two names (in a part of the country where that isn’t too common). Only certain people are allowed to drop the second name when addressing her. When people complain it’s too long, she says, “Take it up with my mother.”

      FTR, we would love to see the fallout if anyone did try to talk to my aunt about this. She does not suffer fools gladly.

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        Oh man, my sister has a double name but now only goes by the first because her kindergarten teachers told her it took her too long to write her full name and she had to only go by the first. The two names together are not any longer than a longer solo name like Catherine or Alexandra. My parents were PISSED when they found out, but by the time they did, sister was used to going by just the first name. It still gets my mom riled, 30 years later.

    4. CreepyPaper*

      ‘That’s not my name, please use my name.’ The times I’ve said this to people, so I absolutely feel your pain. Gosh. My given name is an abbreviation of a common name and people always assume that I’m actually called the longer version.

      Strange that she used your proper name in the beginning and then switched. I wonder why? Is there another employee with a similar name who she could be getting you confused with?

      1. A Mechanic*

        Oh man, I *wish*. As I said, there’s only her and me at the local branch, and she’s in the office and I’m in the work shop… And I think its possible to count all women in the work shop(s) in all our branches (1000+ employees!) on one hand… I’m basically one of a kind ;)

    5. LZ*

      Definitely correct every single time. My name is an uncommon name that has a very similar spelling to an extremely common name (think “July” vs “Julie”). I correct people neutrally, but immediately, every single time: “Hi Julie!” “It’s July”. It’s a pain but it will eventually work with even the most “forgetful” people. And by all means do not feel like you need to be gentle or apologetic about wanting to be called by your given name!

    6. Camellia*

      Also, just me, but I would be inclined to mis-name her in return. You say she has an uncommon variation, so, there you go.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        That’s tricky because this other woman is more senior. It comes across as insubordinate.
        I have in the past said something like “Could you use my full name? I’ve always gone by (Wilhelmina), and I just don’t realize people mean me when they say (Mina). Especially because that’s my mother-in-law’s name.”

        1. allathian*

          Is she really more senior, as in higher up in the org chart? Or just more senior in the sense that she’s been at the company forever? If it’s the latter, then they’re effectively peers and the OP can tell her to stuff it.

          I don’t generally recommend passive-agressive behavior, but in this case it might work. Just stop responding to Bella, and when she gets mad, tell her “there’s no Bella here, my name’s Arabelle.”

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            That’s a good point. We read it differently. I’m looking at it thinking that someone who has been in administration for many years may really have authority over someone newly hired in the factory.
            A Mechanic* will have to decide that.
            Also, if she does have authority, she’s still abusing it. It’s at least worth talking to the senior manager who is trying to learn the correct name, and asking for that person’s advice.

  31. Part Time Question*

    I posted a more specific question above, but I’m wondering if anybody else has worked a part time salaried position and if so, how it worked out for them. I’m only a few months into my new PTS role and finding it a bit strange. People warned me before I took it that “there are no part time jobs in nonprofit, only part time salaries” and I’ve been concerned about this. It’s hard to navigate when to pitch in like I usually would in a full time role, versus push back or decline because I’m not getting benefits (the salary is actually fairly generous for the hours, I know people working FT who make less, so I’m not necessarily complaining). Sometimes I almost wish it were just hourly as it would be cleaner!

      1. Part Time Question*

        I guess it’s easier for them to budget for too – they don’t have to pay me more on busy weeks and less on lean ones. They probably thought it’d be appealing to me for the same reason, which is true; I know they were hoping someone would stay in the role. The main reason it’s not full time is just to save them some money, I think.

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      I did part-time salaried for years. It can definitely be done, but some people will eagerly take advantage of you so be firm about your boundaries. On days you are not working, do not check your email, do not check slack, and do not respond to texts/calls. I gave folks a Google Voice number instead of my real cell number and would actually delete / reinstall the Google Voice app on my phone on days I was working vs. days I was not working (until people got trained not to contact me).

      I got a sh*tload done in my PT hours because I was a very fast worker. I was also willing to be flexible with my time–to stay late or start early when necessary–on the days when I was working. But the days I was not working, I would not do anything at all related to that job.

      1. Part Time Question*

        Yeah I think I made a strategic error almost right away because they asked me to work four days a week, so it ends up extra slippy. And sometimes I rearrange my hours to be available for afternoon meetings etc., because I feel like the position would be low-value if nobody could have meetings with me except during one limited window. But I only have one day truly “off” so I get extra snippy if they end up needing me to cover a meeting or file a report that day or whatever. That said, the salary is fairly generous; they probably could have almost gotten someone (else) full time for what they pay me.

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          If I were you, I would avoid rearranging my schedule unless it’s something really unusual. For me, for example, I would rearrange my schedule to come in for our twice-yearly massive events (they were always on Thursdays and I didn’t work Thursdays). But just because it would be more convenient for someone else to meet with me on Thursday was not a good enough reason for me. YMMV. Part of having a part-time employee is not having all days/times available. If they wanted full-time availability, they should have made the position full time.

        2. Esmeralda*

          If you’re important to the meeting, and they know your schedule, they can schedule that meeting for when you are there.

          Have set hours. Make sure everyone knows them (post on your office door, block out your off hours on shared online calendar) and do NOT work during your off hours. They’re not paying you for them. If they need you to work more hours, they can pay you for it.

          You have to be really tough about it. I would not shift hours around or pitch in for extra unpaid hours more than once or twice a year. Seriously. Otherwise you will not be working part time and they are then STEALING your time. Not in an evil Snidely Whiplash sort of way, but that’s what’s happening nonetheless.

    3. Amey*

      I am part-time salaried but in the UK where this is very common and normal. From reading AAM, I assume this is quite unusual in the US so setting boundaries might be more difficult.

      It’s hard! I think you have to be upfront and breezy and not move your schedule around constantly for things that aren’t really important. So for a meeting, I’ll say something like ‘Oh that’s outside my working hours, could we move it an hour earlier?’ If they’ve recruited this as a part-time role, that has to be expected. I would also try to make sure you have set hours and days – if you have to work over a bit on some of your working days that’s fine (part of being salaried) but try not to work on your non-working days. I’d also phrase it like that ‘Oh, that’s my non-working day’ not call it your ‘day off’. You’re not just taking random vacation days when things are busy – you’re only employed to work 4 days.

      Your job will try to be full-time on a part-time salary, you do have to protect yourself from that as much as you can. The best way is to be breezy and matter-of-fact but firm.

      1. Imprudence*

        I am part time salaried in not for profit, also UK. It’s education related so I regard my 60% contract over a whole year. I work out at the start of the year how many hours they can have, and keep records. I work 4 days a week during busy times, and 2 days, or less, other times. I *do* say “oh I don’t work Fridays” from time to time, but I also sometimes just do an odd hours one day and then less at another time

        They employed me part time, and that does mean something s just don’t get done (specially when a pandemic comes along and adds another 4-6 hours of work to my week). My boss knows that, and I am up front about it. ” I have made no progress on project a, because I have been focussing on project b, which we agreed was more important. There is always next year “

    4. Snow Globe*

      As a manager, I had a part-time salaried person on my team. Key was having the work days set in stone; she did not work on days off, if an emergency came up we’d handle it without her, just like we would if a full time employee was out sick. We had to figure out areas of responsibility that she could manage in 4 days so she did not have the same amount of work as the full time members of the team. Goals were set up that reflected part-time status. If everyone else had to groom 20 llamas a week, her goal was 16 alpacas, since we had fewer alpacas come through.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. I work part time at a job that could easily be 40 or more hours per week. I deal with time sensitive stuff and fires then I go home. Anything I did not get to- I make sure I leave a note on it.

        The trick is to set that hard line. Once you start doing it then it becomes easier and easier to keep to it.

    5. Might Be Spam*

      Back in my IT Cobol days I was offered part-time hours when I came back from maternity leave, I didn’t even have to ask. I still had to come in for middle of the night problems on my assigned system. After a few months my supervisor remembered that I had experience on most of the other systems because they interfaced with mine and started putting me on the call rotation for them when people went on vacation.

      The last straw was was in a group meeting to discuss the on-call rotation for the entire department. Each system had its own call rotation because each team had different numbers of people. In the meeting, she put me on every single system call rotation, meaning that I would be ALWAYS on call and sometimes for multiple systems at the same time. I was speechless. Fortunately one of my coworkers pointed out that I would be on call more than any of the full-timers and she backed down.

      This was the same boss who wouldn’t let me have any growth opportunities (before maternity leave) because she didn’t want me to leave. I’m not in IT anymore.

  32. Anon for this*

    I’m a manager working on hiring a junior level position. Our HR has been…odd…throughout this process and I’m curious to see if anyone else thinks I’m off base in how they’re handling this hire with me.

    I found a top candidate and extended an offer. She asked for a few days to think it over (totally fair), and our HR followed up with the total offer package. The candidate asked to negotiate the start date (she hadn’t named one before HR printed one in her offer letter, and the date they set didn’t work for her for totally reasonable reasons), and asked if it was possible to negotiate a higher salary and PTO (in this case…no). All of these negotiations were with HR directly–they made it clear to her she was not to discuss these matters with me–her hiring manager. HR called me and was ‘taken aback’ that she had tried to negotiate and made it seem like it reflected poorly on her. They even said they had never had anyone try to negotiate these things with them before. I was kind of shocked they were so annoyed–I mean, they’re in the business of hiring and onboarding candidates–surely they’ve encountered attempts to negotiate before, even if we can’t give what she’s asking. I asked them to read the emails she sent–in case her tone or approach was concerning–and they were all pleasant, warm, civil, and…fine. I was a little disturbed by their take on this situation, and especially when they asked me about her [insert protected class status here] for reasons I’m not sure about.

    I said to them that her attempts to negotiate didn’t concern me. But am I off base on being weirded out by HR’s response to what I think is a normal part of hiring?

    1. LKW*

      Yes. Either they don’t understand how hiring works or maybe they don’t understand how hiring women works.

      I suspect, but have absolutely no indicative information, that if this were a man negotiating, HR might be less aghast.

    2. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

      I think you are sensible and humane and HR is overly rigid. But I am only a worker and have never hired anyone.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      You aren’t off base at all, this is all pretty standard stuff in my opinion. That being said, I’ve seen some HR departments take these weird stances when it comes to negotiations, they somehow get it twisted that the company money is somehow ‘their’ money and they fight tooth and nail. It’s so strange…the money isn’t coming out of your budget?!

    4. Nans cat*

      I have experienced the same type of reaction from our HR. In our organization, about 95% of the new hires are entry level with little experience and no degree required. There is little negotiation for these positions- the starting pay is $X , the benefits are Y, two week start date. My particular department though has professional level, degreed new hires with experience. Up until recently we had little turnover, so our HR staff weren’t used to dealing with counteroffers, which are normal in my field, but unusual for the vast majority of new hires they dealt with. Could this be the case in your organization?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Not the OP, but I was the candidate in a similar situation – in my conversation with the hiring manager where I got a verbal offer, the HM let me know she wouldn’t be able to talk to me until things were settled with HR. That turned out not to be entirely true since we did touch base several times during the process but I think there were some restrictions on what we could discuss, for example I wouldn’t be negotiating with her but with HR.

        However, HR being *shocked* that a candidate would negotiate at all is really weird. Even if the HR person is brand new (which could explain why they’ve never had this specific experience with a candidate), that doesn’t make it abnormal.

        Asking about the protected status sounds like it might cross a line, especially if it wasn’t made absolutely clear that there was a legitimate business reason that explains they were asking. This might be something to pursue with the HR person’s manager.

        1. Fran Fine*

          I would definitely bring this to the HR manager’s boss’s attention. Why in the world would she have needed to know the person’s protected class status?!

    6. pancakes*

      Yes. It sounded off-base even before you alluded to HR asking something about this person’s protected class status. At best this reflects a disconcerting lack of familiarity with very basic norms – negotiating a start date, for example, is very, very common and unremarkable. It’s hard to get a sense for how bad this really is, though, without more information on what they were trying to ask about protected class status. “What an odd question, why do you ask?” might’ve been a good response to that.

    7. Grace Less*

      This might explain why my company’s hiring barely outpaces resignations, despite having a 1:175 recruiter:employee ratio. (Notably, HR for the suckers who do sign on is more like 1:600.)

  33. Apprentice*

    Kind of a weird question here…

    I qualify for a state-run program where I can collect unemployment without job searching because I’m in an unpaid apprenticeship for a new job.

    However, the state unemployment agency is very behind and slow to get through applications. I’ve been informed that it could be months before I’m approved. In the meantime, in order to continue to qualify for unemployment, I have to “job search”.

    The thing is, my apprenticeship will lead me to a new, good job so I’m not actually free to take the jobs I’m applying for. I’m trying to only apply for jobs I’m not qualified for so my application will be thrown out quickly, but this week I was invited to an interview even though I didn’t meet the qualifications in the listing at all. I turned down the interview because I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time, but it’s risky to do that because it could also jeopardize my unemployment.

    So I guess my question is…does anyone here have experience applying to jobs where you’re trying *not* to hear back? How do you make yourself look unattractive as a candidate, while also not embarrassing yourself? I think I’m afraid of submitting something too terrible because it’s kind of a small field and someone could say to a former colleague “Hey I saw a terrible cover letter from your old employee….”

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      That’s definitely a thing people do when they’re attempting to meet the job searching requirements but not actually get a new job. Do you have to apply to jobs in your specific sector? Applying to a huge corporation like a bank would be a great way to get applications in that aren’t noticed, ha.

      I think ways to not stand out as a candidate in your field would be to not complete the application (like not include a cover letter or just write “see resume” instead of filling out an online application); apply to jobs that are far above your ability; and apply to jobs outside your geographic area. I would stick to big businesses as much as possible; they’re much more likely to have an HR team look at the applications rather than the actual manager.

      Also, I would check in with your program and see what they recommend. Maybe there’s another way to get your benefits without wasting everyone’s time in the process!

      1. Apprentice*

        Good tip about big businesses. If I were offered an interview with a big business, I wouldn’t care about wasting HR’s time that much either. I am supposed to be applying in my field according to unemployment reqs, but I think I need to broaden my definition of ‘my field’ to ‘management’ rather than managing a specific type of llama.

    2. Looking for change*

      This may vary by state, but when I was unemployed and needed to hit my quota for the week (because I couldn’t find enough jobs I legitimately wanted to apply to that week) I just applied for non-entry level jobs outside my industry using the “quick apply” option on sites like zip recruiter. No tailored resume, no cover letter. Also, if you target postings that are more than a month old, you’re less likely to hear back.

      If you do have to turn down an interview offer, well yes, there’s a risk you could lose unemployment if the agency ever found out, but realistically they’re so understaffed and swamped that they are not going to go hunting for people who turn down a single interview. They’re more focused on people not applying for jobs at all, or people who are so disadvantaged they may literally not know how to apply for a job using a computer. If a job you are blatantly unqualified for reaches out for an interview, it’s probably safe to turn it down, and it’s unlikely to happen often.

      (Obligatory caveat: this varies by state and there’s always *some* non-zero risk).

      1. BalanceofThemis*

        I’d be careful about applying for jobs you are way over qualified for. In some industries, food service and retail, for example, they will call you. I think it was McDonald’s that was reporting people for turning down interviews and jobs.

    4. pancakes*

      Job searching and completing job applications aren’t necessarily the same thing. The former is a much broader category. It can’t hurt to take a closer look at the state requirements. In my state, things like “Attending job search seminars, scheduled career networking meetings, job fairs or employment-related workshops that offer instruction to improve job-hunting skills” are among the activities that meet the requirement of job searching.

      1. Apprentice*

        That’s a totally fair point. I’ve just found that applying to throwaway jobs is the fastest way to complete the requirements since I’m in a full-time apprenticeship + study the material on nights/weekends as well. But I’ll keep an eye out for opportunities that would allow me to make contacts in the industry I’m moving into.

        1. pancakes*

          That is probably fastest, but yeah, you might be able to find options that are a little less fast that you actually get something out of.

    5. Red*

      Just apply to big corporate jobs where you’re obviously not qualified/have the wrong background. I would apply to kmart, target, bank of america and meet my quota.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      A friend was having difficulty getting unemployment. She emailed our local rep to state congress. That congress person stepped in and everything got straightened out.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Yes, definitely try that. Whenever I send a form letter to my state rep, I get an actual non-form response, even if just to say “yep I’m already a cosponsor of that bill” (a few weeks later, but that’s better than your current estimate of months).

    8. Speaks to Dragonflies*

      This sounds sketchy as heck to me. An unpaid apprenticeship? Are you doing any work for this company or are they just teaching you how to do the work so you can do the actual work in the future? I thought apprenticeships were set up so you could learn to do a job, but you were learning as you did actual work. If this is whats happening, you may want to look into the legality of it.

  34. Dumpling*

    So….question for all here/gut check? 

    My thinking is that a good manager chats with their teammates and if their person brings up something about another worker that’s relevant to their performance etc, they should raise it with that person’s manager, even if that person wasn’t complaining, just sharing. It should not get to the level of a formal complaint.

    Basically, my manager is being bashed and I’m thinking this is being blown way out of proportion and I’m super annoyed by it. 

    I left a company before COVID and came back a few months ago, this time as a remote worker. I am 100% remote as are my teammates. When I came back, I was under my former manager, Larry. The team split off into 2 and a former peer, Moe, was promoted to manager and my new manager. After I had left, they were the only two people I stayed in touch with. I got along well with both and had no issues. Chatting with managers and colleagues about non-work related things, sharing (safe) memes etc is completely normal for our company culture.

    Curly is a fellow remote employee who started around the same time I did this year and remained on Larry’s team. We began chatting bc we found out we had a few things in common, including the city we grew up in and family matters. Curly would ask me questions about the process and systems at our work which can be a little complicated so I was happy to answer those and in turn he would answer my questions about the non-work things.

    I was chatting with Moe and mentioned that I chat with Curly and that he asks me questions about our processes; it was part of a bigger conversation about how working remotely is different from being in person. I didn’t know at the time, but Moe mentioned this to Larry and Larry told Curly to stop asking me and come to him.

    A few weeks later I was chatting with Curly and he mentioned what Larry had said to him about coming to me with questions. I spoke to Moe and told him that when I shared that with him, I wasn’t complaining and didn’t know he would share it and that I hope no one was in trouble. Moe said that it’s not a big deal, I had my own work to do and that Curly should be following up with his team lead, not me.  

    It’s been a few weeks since then and I was talking with Curly about some other things and he mentioned again how Larry had told him to not ask me questions. I felt like he was hinting at something, so I told him that I had mentioned it to Moe as part of a casual conversation. 

    Well….this is where things got kind of hairy. Curly got really upset! He was bashing Moe a lot, questioning why he would tell Larry what I said, and told me not to trust him etc. I tried to stay neutral and say as little as possible and change the subject several times. Eventually I told him to just drop it, it’s not that serious.. He wasn’t upset with Larry at all, only at Moe but it was definitely awkward. 

    So….I dont’ blame Moe at all. He’s on vacation and I’m not going to bring any of this up to him. I wasn’t upset when I told him about Curly, it was just… a “whoops didn’t think that through” kind of thing. and I don’t think he did anything wrong at all by telling Larry.

    I also don’t blame Curly (up to that point) for asking me questions b/c while yes you have your team lead, sometimes it’s easier to ask a peer that you have a rapport with than to constantly ask your team lead questions, you know? 

    From what I heard, Larry’s directive was really informal and casual and they were laughing about it afterwards. I worked under Larry for years so I knew exactly how he could give feedback and that’s something I always appreciated about him. 

    I don’t think anyone did anything wrong (well Curly up until he began bashing Moe) but I feel that’ Curly blew it way out of proportion. I’m just really annoyed that things went this way because otherwise I haven’t really spoken to anyone aside from my two managers the entire time I’ve been back. 

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      Agreed that Curly is really the only person who did something wrong here when he bashed Moe. None of this even seems like negative feedback that he got from Larry, just a simple “Hey, bring these questions to me instead.” Curly is taking this whole thing really personally when it’s really just a normal re-routing related to doing business. You did nothing wrong here, and neither did Moe or Larry.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Curly overreacted.

      He’s relatively new, right? Does he have a rapport with Moe at all? If they don’t really talk much, he may be projecting some baggage from a bad past experience and think Moe was trying to “get him in trouble” and Larry “stood up for him. ”

      Or maybe the way Larry framed it gave him the wrong impression.

      In any case, if the subject stays dropped, maybe he will get a chance over time to become more comfortable with the open & informal communication style your team has.

    3. PollyQ*

      I don’t love Moe’s initial response. My preference would have been for him to coach you to push back on Curly’s requests for help first, before bringing Larry into it in a more formal way. That said, I also don’t think it was terrible, and Curly’s reaction really was over the top.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Curly is making mountains out of mole hills. It’s fairly normal to go to your own supervisor first and foremost.
      The boss is just asking for a normal thing.

      My take on this is that Curly has a temper issue and it might be a good idea to keep Curly at arm’s length. I’d watch for other signs that Curly does not do well with people in authority- I think you may have an early warning sign right here.

      The thing that jumps at me here, is that the boss did not say not to talk to you. The boss said to ask him for instructions as opposed to asking you. It’s a small request- which makes me think that Curly was using you to avoid interacting with his boss. You don’t wanna get in the middle between a boss and an employee who has problems with authority.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, this reads to me like Curly just had an overreaction in the moment. He’d been upset to be corrected over something he didn’t know was a problem, maybe hurt that you’d complained to the bosses about it – and now this revelation that it wasn’t even a complaint. In his mind it felt like “so I got scolded because Moe went and tattled to Larry over something Dumpling wasn’t even complaining about?” Hopefully he will cool down and realize that’s an overly dramatic way of framing it.

  35. Anon former employee*

    Hi. I haven’t followed along too much lately but was this ever discussed? An HR exec in Florida trashed personnel files and deleted resumes after being fired and is now facing prison. I’ll link in the comment. This is actually my former employer! I was really shocked to read about this as I had left around that time but had no idea that this had even happened until now.

    1. 867-5309*

      WHAT? Can’t wait to read the article. I would have expected a civil suit but the prison part surprises me – was it destruction of property?

      1. Anon former employee*

        As far as I know, the company stopped doing background checks before I arrived.

        I’ve read about this in other spaces and – as expected – everyone is applauding her for doing this as she’s living out some disgruntled workers fantasy.

        I wasn’t there when it happened, but from what former coworkers told me, it was a pretty BFD.

        1. pancakes*

          That’s pretty messed-up. Fantasizing about quitting emphatically, spontaneously, etc., can be fun, but that’s not what this was. This was self-sabotage.

      1. Anon former employee*

        I wish I could answer more about that particular incident, but I don’t know much either nor am I in touch with anyone who does. I will say though, they have 2 offices. I worked in the other office and anytime a termination happened, they were immediately walked out. From what I heard and experienced myself over the years, majority of the Florida office where this HR exec was were…unprofessional at best.

        1. RussianInTeaxs*

          I sent the article to my partner who is a cyber security engineer, and he said his group actually discussed this situation at their departmental meeting yesterday!

        2. ecnaseener*

          Wow, I always thought it was overkill to walk people out immediately, but I guess this is what it’s meant to avoid…

    4. ecnaseener*

      FIFTEEN YEARS?! For two counts of damaging computers??? Holy crap.

      (clarifying, she’s facing *up to* 15 yrs, sentencing is later)

      1. RussianInTexas*

        No, she is facing that based on the unauthorized data access, not physically damaging computers. Once you do intentional unauthorized data access, it becomes federa crime = hacking.

        1. ecnaseener*

          That’s not what the article says: “Calonge was convicted of two counts of damaging computers after a six-day trial in New York and faces as much as 15 years in prison when she is sentenced on Dec. 2.”

          I understand that “damaging computers” isn’t limited to physical damage.

          1. pancakes*

            The DOJ press release has a bit more info about the charges. “Damaging computers” is underselling it a bit – per the DOJ, “the company had invested two years and over $100,000 to build [its computer system]. During the next two days, CALONGE rampaged through System-1, deleting over 17,000 job applications and resumes, and leaving messages with profanities inside the system. Ultimately, CALONGE completely destroyed all of Employer-1’s data in System-1. Employer-1 subsequently spent over $100,000 to investigate and respond to the incident and to rebuild System-1. To this day, Employer-1 has been unable to recover all of its data.”

  36. Albeira Dawn*

    Does anyone have advice for using the Pomodoro method in an office? In school when I was working by myself in my room, I would use a kitchen timer instead of my phone to avoid temptation. Now I work in a small office where everyone would go insane if I had a timer going off every 25 minutes.
    My attention span is really flagging and I definitely need some kind of structure that won’t annoy everyone else.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Or use your phone set to vibrate.

        Or you can use a computer based one that will put a silent popup on your screen.

    4. Need More Sunshine*

      Wow, I’ve never heard of this method before, but it seems like something I could really benefit from. Going to give it a try! Thanks for mentioning it!

    5. Caboose*

      I’ve used timeme dot com for this at work! It’s just in a browser tab, and I think you can do it without any sound so it just has a popup instead, but I normally have headphones on so it’s not a huge issue.

  37. Mrs. Hoover*

    It’s been a stressful week in managing my direct reports. Two of them seem unaware that the fact they simply do their job does not warrant some kind of pat on the back and that if I give them constructive feedback it’s not an invitation to reinterpret it to make themselves feel better. And another direct report is dealing with a nightmare project with an outside partner who is treating everyone poorly, so I’ve been trying to help her navigate that hideousness.

    I feel like in addition to the anxiety I feel about managing well and working on my own projects, I’m absorbing my direct report’s anxiety about this nightmare project, and trying to keep a handle on all of it while I update my own manager. I know I need to let go of some of this tangential anxiety. But I don’t know how to take a step back from my direct reports and just accept that I am doing the best I can and let them do the best they can.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      What are the two reports doing that show they want a pat on the back and how often does this happen?

      How do you respond when they reinterpret their constructive feedback?

      It might be time to drag your own boss into the problem with the outside partner who is treating people poorly. Your boss should at least be aware of what is going on.

    2. Speaks to Dragonflies*

      Maybe Im missing something, but whats wrong with coming to work and simply doing your job? What kind of “pat on the back” are the 2 employees looking for? If they’re doing good work- no mistakes, deadlines met, just average output, I dont think there’s anything wrong with a “Thanks for taking care of that” or “Good job” every now and again. If they’re wanting a parade complete with a marching band and floats…yeah, thats over the top. When you say you give them constructive feedback, what does that mean? I’ve only heard the phrase used when someone is telling someone else what they could do better. Its not a bad thing…its always good to improve on what you do. But if they do something good, do you, let them know? Im guessing they are doing an average job,meaning no problems, but nothing great either.( I dont remember reading about any performance issues in your post) Sometimes its nice to know that the hear that you’ve done something good along with the criticism. If they are doing the best they can as your direct reports, only hearing the critical side can be demoralizing.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Not to be rude, but I think you’re wrong about the two direct supports not warranting some kind of pat on the back. You seem unaware that your treatment of them can be seen by them as taking them for granted and making them feel unrecognized and unappreciated. You might be so preoccupied with your other report’s nightmare project, that you’re neglecting the other ones. We’ve read a lot in this thread about the “great resignation” and problems with hiring new people. Have you ever heard the old Joni Mitchell song, “Big Yellow Taxi”?

    4. allathian*

      There’s nothing wrong with an occasional pat on the back for a job well done, even if it’s just “thanks for the TPS report, the C-suite loved it”. If you never acknowledge the work your reports are doing and only talk to them if you have “constructive” feedback to give them “your TPS report was two days late and full of typos, here’s an edited version and I don’t want to see those typos again next month,” they’re going to resent it, and rightfully so.

      That said, too much positive feedback can feel infantilizing, as in, you don’t have to be excessive in showing your appreciation, because that can feel like you’re expecting your reports to fail to meet expectations and are surprised when they do in fact meet them. But a simple “thanks for the TPS report” is probably all the pat on the back your reports want.

      Someone who can’t give any positive feedback ever, and who thinks it’s completely unnecessary, IMO should get out of management ASAP. I certainly wouldn’t want to work for a boss like that.

    5. First Time Asking for a Raise*

      Um, why doesn’t doing their job warrant a pat on the back? I’m assuming we aren’t talking full on recognition and/or money. I tell my team they are doing a good job all the time, I certainly don’t want the only feedback they get from me to be negative. I know I love to be appreciated, so why wouldn’t my reports?

  38. Lucky*

    I don’t understand the concern about how vaccinations will be verified. Schools and health care facilities do it all the time. Show me your vax card, I’ll add your name to the list. No vax card, send me your weekly test results or stay home. Keep the list with some level of security, same as other employee personal info.

      1. Transient Hamster*

        Yes, this. My husband has an acquaintance who printed his own fake vaccination card so he could get into a concert without having to provide proof of testing and wear a mask. I have no who we could report this information to so I’m sure he’ll continue to use his fake card as needed.

      2. Esmeralda*

        My university is verifying fax cards. They’ve caught a few fakes but not many. They do have ways to verify, it’s not a quick process but it is very accurate from my understanding.

    3. pancakes*

      Schools and health care facilities also ask people to put on a mask all the time. Maybe you are not in the US, but it is an inescapable fact of life here that not only do many people refuse to comply, a number of them become irate, or even violent. I am not trying to suggest that this is a good reason not to ask for verification – my point is just that you seem to have a lot more faith in people being cooperative and civic-minded than is warranted.

  39. Concerned Academic Librarian*

    For any of my academic library colleagues out there, just how necessary is Linked In? For some time I have felt it’s more of an annoyance than a useful tool as far as me keeping an account and a profile. But before I delete everything, is this something I should keep?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I really don’t use it. I have a profile. I update it when I make a job change, but I really don’t pay much attention. I’ve never used it to look up a job candidate and I’m not a big on social media in general. I don’t think it is needed, but maybe more important if you’re in a specific field- like business librarianship. It has been handy to keep track of a few folks from grad school I barely talk to.

    2. Also an Academic Librarian*

      I’m an early-ish career academic librarian and I’ve never had a LinkedIn. No one’s ever asked me about it! I don’t have social media either, but if someone was really curious they can find me on the web pretty easily (which is another issue!)

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I’m an academic librarian and I don’t use it. I have an account, I’d probably update it (minimally) if I was job hunting, but it’s never really come up in a job search for me either as a candidate or on a search committee.

  40. LadyByTheLake*

    Ever have one of those days where you just feel like a punching bag? It’s not my manager — he’s very supportive. It is all of the business units I support — they want what they want, and they want it NOW and if I point out that they can’t necessarily have what they want (because that’s literally my job — to impose some controls and order), but here’s this slightly different thing they could have that’s really close, they scream and moan and run to my boss and say I am not being a “partner” and on and on and on. Some level of pushback is in the nature of my job, but most days and most people are willing to work with me to figure out what we can do, and then there are days like today where I just want to chuck it all and tell them to all go F*&^ themselves.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You can report rude behavior to your boss for her to handle.

      I do think that people are getting a little fried because of the world events. Maybe you can say something like, “we are all in the same boat together” and get them to think before yelling. Or maybe you can get your boss to agree that you can immediately end any conversations that dissolve into yelling. I think I’d aim for this solution. “Bob if you are going to yell at me, I have to end this conversation. We can come back to it when you have your thoughts collected.” Don’t reward their yelling by giving them what they want on the spot.

    2. Silence*

      Second being allowed to hang up on people who yell.
      Can you or your boss do a document or workshop to other departments specifing what you do and don’t do as there has been recent “confusion “

  41. Keslie Lnope*

    I’m at an impasse at work.

    A month ago my company announced we are going 100 per cent remote and there won’t be a physical building any longer. We have been remote since the pandemic hit. We were asked to go into the portal to sign up for a day to bring our things home and trade in our laptops for the new ones from our new IT outsource firm.

    One of my employees was an essential worker and he was the only employee in the last 18 months to go in daily because it was needed. Between the law that regulates our work changing to allow working from home for all, and now our company going 100 per cent remote he will also transition to remote work.

    The issue we are having is that he doesn’t have internet at home and he refuses to purchase it. He says the company should be paying. The company refuses. He is supposed to begin remote work on October 1 when the new regulations kick in and the physical building lease ends. He is a good employee and things without him will be hard. There will be struggles. Neither side will budge and as his manager I feel stuck in the middle. I know there is no way the company will make an exception for him because there are hundreds of employees and they can’t buy internet for all. His LinkedIn makes it look like he is job hunting. I’m not sure if I can even do anything.

    1. Irish girl*

      I would be pissed the same way he is if I was in that situation. Your company not paying for something he doesnt have at home to do his job sounds like a pay cut for him. If others already pay for and use internet in their personal lives and he doesnt, i think there should be some consideration for paying for it. What if he lived in an area that doesnt have reliable internet?

      1. Keslie Lnope*

        I see your point about not having internet in his area, but in this case we live in one of the largest cities in the country. I live approximately 5 minutes away from him and high speed fiber internet is the norm here. Per his salary band he earns between 20 and 25 per cent higher than the median salary for our area so the company feels he should be able to afford it.

        1. Irish girl*

          Why should the company care if he can afford it or not? That should not be their worry. DO you pay him a adequate salary for his work? You are making a change to his job description and requirements and now requiring him to pay for something that was previously paid for by the company. Did the change in requirements come with a change to the salary that could make up for the cost of getting internet? The cost of getting the internet per month, set up cost, cost of a modem or router and any other cost to maintain that now comes out of his pay. That is a pay cut. It has nothing to do with the median salary of your area.

          What about his work required him to be in the office as an essential worker? Was it jsut that he didnt have internet at home?

          1. Keslie Lnope*

            I see what you are saying. In fairness the change was made by the CEO, the president and the owner. They decided to go fully remote once the new law passed. They also decide the salary bands, but as I said I do know based on his he would earn 20 to 25 per cent above the median salary for the area and above marker rate as well. I have no control or say in either of those which is why I feel caught in the middle. I’m trying to find a solution doing what I can.

            He was essential because we are in a healthcare adjacent industry and his job could not have been done from home (internet or not) until the new law was passed. His job is crucial to health and the pandemic response. All of ours are but his especially. If the law had been different when the pandemic started he would have been home at the beginning like the rest of us. The company says saving on costs like gas/commuting, work clothes and other expenses plus the flexibility should make up for it but my employee believes it is an expense the business should pay.

        2. Moths*

          Honestly, I don’t think your company should be taking into consideration how much he makes and if they feel he should be able to afford it. The question (to me) is whether an employee should have to pay for a tool the company requires for them to do their work or if that’s something the company should cover. I lean strongly in the direction that the company should cover it if they suddenly require it when they didn’t before. I understand not wanting to make an exception, but making an exception doesn’t mean that they have to do it for everyone else. It’s the same as any other request an employee makes for a tool to get their job done. Just because my company purchased a larger monitor for one person who needs to be able to see multiple documents at once doesn’t mean they automatically need to go out and purchase the same monitor for everyone. It’s about treating your workers equitably.
          And again, the company has zero idea about an employee’s expenses and living situation. What his salary is should have no impact on their willingness to cover the tools they’re requiring for the job. Lots of companies pay for cell phones for their executives. Surely most people making an executive salary could afford a cell phone bill, but the company pays for them anyways because they’re a tool needed to do their job.
          I know that you’re not necessarily on one side or the other, just trying to retain your good employee, but I would recommend going back to the company and strongly advocating for them to cover this for your employee. He’s been a good employee and you acknowledge that losing him will be difficult. In the grand scheme, the company covering this one expense will likely be a good investment on their part to retain a solid employee. However, that being said, the way the company has already approached it may mean he’s going to leave no matter what. He went out of his way to be available and to go in whenever needed. The company is repaying that by refusing to make the slightest exception for him to be able to do his job without essentially taking a pay cut (by having to increase his expenses). If you really want the best chance to hang on to this employee, please fight to do what’s right by him in this situation.

          1. Fran Fine*

            All of this, though I agree with you that it may be too late to retain this employee. The company won’t even offer him a reimbursement option for his internet costs? That’s crazy to me (as someone who works for a company that gives remote workers either a company-issued cell or internet reimbursement up to $75/month).

            1. ecnaseener*

              Unfortunately it’s not uncommon – I also work for a healthcare org and they are giving us zero assistance on wfh – no internet reimbursement, no phone, etc. Very jealous of you!

              1. Fran Fine*

                My company had this policy in place long before Covid was even a thing, so they just expanded it for everyone once offices closed down.

        3. Teapot Repair Technician*

          I looked up the median salary for my area: $52k. A family with that income here would barely qualify to rent a two-bedroom apartment and would likely struggle to cover a new $50/month bill.

          Your company should consider paying for his internet or giving him a raise.

        4. WellRed*

          I see why you’re stuck here but really, the company doesn’t get to decide what employees can or cannot afford nor how they choose to spend a single dime.

          1. Fran Fine*

            Also this. They have no idea what his expenses are or what he can realistically afford, nor should they.

      2. braindump*

        I’d be pissed too (and did switch jobs after my own role went remote), but ultimately the company can decide what roles are needed.

        I don’t see paying for one person’s internet as feasible just to keep them – it would be like offering only one person childcare or one person a professional wardrobe stipend. Having poor internet in one area is just like saying someone lives far away from the city but no car or public transit for a role that requires one to be onsite – not quite the employer’s problem.

        What IS the employer’s problem is not having a backup for a so called essential employee. I hope OP is willing to give a good recommendation to the employee when they do leave.

    3. braindump*

      I assume you’ve asked him to document his essential job duties? Do those still exist if his job is now remote?

      “Things will be hard” – sounds like your management should help your shoulder that burden if you can document what will be difficult. I do agree with management that paying for one person’s internet is not feasible.

      1. Keslie Lnope*

        He did make a document with everything he does. But there is so much else, institutional knowledge, client relationships and all the stuff you pick up after being here/in this line of work for 12 years that we will lose if he leaves. I don’t think the company realizes how this will go if he leaves but I also agree that paying for his internet isn’t something they can do.

        1. braindump*

          You’ll need to ask your company how to navigate those changes. Not in a “we need to keep this specific employee” kind of way, but it is your job as a manager to communicate what that unfilled role means to the company and what you are able to do with that role empty. Perhaps the company doesn’t think he is essential as you do?

          1. Pocket Mouse*

            I’d be mad in his shoes too. It’s a basic, relatively low-cost tool necessary to do his job, and the powers that be have expressed retaining him is not worth it to them to provide him with that tool. As braindump mentioned, leadership does not see him as quite so essential as you do. You have some power and, I’d argue, responsibility—to both him and your employer—to convey the exact likelihood and consequences of losing him.

            Either way, you need to spend the next three weeks operating under the assumption he will not be working for you anymore come October 1. As is often mentioned here, all employees eventually leave, and it is rarely convenient. But you know it happens eventually, you have good reason to believe it will be soon for this employee, and you have some time to act accordingly.

    4. Paris Geller*

      It sucks that this is going to impact you but I totally get it. He doesn’t normally have internet & doesn’t want to pay for it. By closing the building, the company is redirecting a lot of overhead cost to employees. I know this has been a debate for the past year and a half–some people have said money by always eating lunch at home when they could go out and not having to commute, but some people haven’t spent more on electricity, internet, heating, etc. I’m sorry because it’s absolutely not your fault but I don’t think he’s being unreasonable.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Ugh, typo. Some have HAVE spent more on electricity, internet, heating.

        I’m with a lot of the other commenters–the org is shifting the responsibility onto its workers. They’ll save a ton of money, they should be shelling out for internet.

      2. Paris Geller*

        Ugh, typo alert. I meant some (by which I mean many) HAVE spent more on electricity, internet, heating, that normally companies would have to pay for.

      3. Speaks to Dragonflies*

        To add to the points being made about the employers expenses being passed on…I dont know for sure and maybe Keslie can let us know. But Im going to guess that along with electric and water, the employer also had to pay for…internet access… for the business to funtion. If so, then this expense is being passed DIRECTLY to the employees. So not only the cost of the internet, but all the liability for security of company infromation. The way I see it, the company should be footing everyones internet bill, seeing as how they needed it anyway. In the event that the internet want necessary for the business to operate, since they went 100% work from home, its necessary for it now, so they should still be footing the bill. Bit thats just my opinion.

    5. Qwerty*

      The company is forcing him to take on a business expense. They are getting rid of the building to save a ton of money and expect employees to eat the cost.

      He shouldn’t have to purchase it on his own expense for the same reason that the company provides computers, headsets, and other items essential to doing the job. If you see internet as such a small expense for him, then why is it not trivial for the company to cover it?

      Keep in mind that this guy came to work everyday for 18months in a pandemic while everyone got to stay safe at home!!! He put himself at risk by having to commute and go out into the world. If I was him, it would seem like the company is saying “screw you and all your hard work”. Would it really be that hard to give him a merit-based raise based on all the hard work he’s done in the past 18months and to cover the cost of relocating him to a different office (because you’ve just turned his home into an office). Of course he is looking for another job, this one clearly isn’t valuing him.

      1. ecnaseener*

        This. It’s not infeasible to pay for only one employee’s internet when you have a ready-made justification – he’s *been* an exception to the rule the whole time.

    6. Teapot Repair Technician*

      Could you offer him a $1000/year (or $0.50/hr) raise? Where I live, that would more than cover the cost of internet service.

      1. Snow Globe*

        That’s what I’d recommend. Then the company wouldn’t have to deal with an expense reimbursement that they don’t want to provide to everyone.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        TRT – I don’t mean to be a jerk, but I cannot get internet in my suburban town for less than $100 per month (including taxes and fees). I have tried pricing out the only 2 providers in my area. It is a pretty big pet peeve for me. I totally see employees POV and feel for OP and employee.

          1. Fran Fine*

            Yup, that’s how much my area’s basic internet only costs – I had to upgrade to get a better connection for Zoom meetings for school, and now I’m paying $100/month for just internet. It’s ridiculous.

            1. WellRed*

              We had to upgrade for work and school. The other thing: the amount of time spent calling about options, troubleshooting issues (crawling on my 50 year old knees), buying additional equipment, waiting for internet guy…

    7. RagingADHD*

      I find it surprising that they are not paying a lease or any expenses for a physical building (including internet, insurance, utilities, security, or whatever else it entails) big enough for hundreds of employees, but that savings doesn’t translate into enough money for even a partial stipend for the employees’ internet service? That must have been one rock-bottom cheap, all-inclusive lease.

    8. Ali G*

      Why can’t they buy internet for all? They should be. They are saving tons of money by closing the office. They should be giving each employee a monthly stipend for office expenses.
      Sorry your employee is right and you are going to lose him.

    9. T. Boone Pickens*

      The fact that your company won’t shell out the roughly $100/month the internet will cost despite the fact the business will be saving probably 50x-100x that on a monthly basis by discontinuing the lease is low key absolutely hilarious to me.

      I hope your CEO is able to see the light. If not, I hope the transition to finding a new employee is a smooth one Keslie Lnope.

    10. Coverage Associate*

      In my state, the employer should be paying a stipend to everyone who uses their own phone or internet for work. Ours is $40/month, which is about a quarter of my phone and internet bills, but it’s something.

    11. AndersonDarling*

      It seems straightforward to me. He never needed internet at home so it would be an out of pocket expense that he would need to pay monthly just to work. It would be the same if I had basic internet but it wasn’t enough to have high speed zoom meetings and my office required me to spend an extra $70 a month to get the premium package. I would not fork out $840 a year for the privilege of keeping my job.
      It’s a different situation from the standard employee, so it’s not an exception. If there are other employees that never had internet, then they should also receive a stipend for internet service.
      It would be the same if the employee was being required to use an ap on a smartphone for network double authentication but they have always had a flip phone. The company would provide a smartphone or the employee would be reimbursed for purchasing a smartphone. Employees that already have a smartphone don’t need need to be reimbursed for something they already have purchased and use personally 99.9% of the day.

    12. Purple Cat*

      I think your company is in the wrong here. yes, MOST people have internet access, so in general, it’s a given. But in this case, this employee doesn’t and would only be getting it for his job. he didn’t ask to go remote, and it sounds like he doesn’t even WANT to be remote, the company is forcing him. Since the company is forcing the change, they should be responsible for covering the expense associated with that change. To force an effective paycut on him while the company saves all the money from cutting their business lease is lousy.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This right here. I could see if he chose to go fully remote, then yeah, maybe your company would be in the right to not provide a stipend for internet. But when he didn’t even ask for this and his job was essentially shut down because of something outside of his control (COVID)? Yeah, that’s shitty the company’s quibbling over such a minor cost per month for a long-time employee who seemed to go over and beyond during this strange (and dangerous) time.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      What about other office supplies? What do employees do if they need paper/pens and other basics to do their jobs?
      Does the company tell them they are on their own for that also?

      Just lay it out in living color to TPTB, if we do not provide internet for this person, it is very likely that this person will quit.
      Then to him say apologetically, that you are doing everything you can think of to salvage the situation, but it’s not looking good.

      Situations like this can have a ripple effect- where other people see what is happening and they start getting restless to leave also.

    14. The New Wanderer*

      I think the company is facing the one exception to the paying for internet rule. This one employee was the only one to not need internet at home when everyone else was able to go fully remote. In fact, he couldn’t go full remote when everyone else did. Now he needs internet at home because the conditions of his job were changed by the company per the new law, and he can’t perform his job in the office as before.

      I vote it’s a unique business expense for this specific employee’s role and the company should pay, but only in this one case. However, that’s unlikely to sway your company and short of being able to give him a raise to offset the cost of internet (and not in lieu of a merit raise), I think the most likely outcome is that he’ll leave.

    15. Thinking Cap is On*

      Some solutions that may work:

      1. the company pays for a spot at a co-working space for him to use. It would likely end up being more than internet service and could set a precedence. But, it offers a solution for him and it might end up being so annoying to him to commute and pay for bus/parking that he chooses to end that after a few months.

      2. have him tether to his work cell phone data, I’ve done it before, it can be done and is fast and reliable enough. If he has a work cell phone plan/bill that is covered, it’s a solution. Yes, it could be expensive for the business but it’s a short term solution depending on data rates/plans.

      3. explain to owner/ceo/bosses that the company should be offering a percent or stipend of internet access for all employees or an annual bonus of say $500 to all employees to offset the cost. Yes, some employees would be paying for it otherwise, but others would have to increase their service to accommodate full time work from home. And yes, employees are saving on commuting and clothes to offset, but it’s hard to quantify this.

    16. BRR*

      Can you get him a raise with the agreement his job requires internet? You could point out the cost of turnover?

      It sounds like your company’s leadership won’t change their minds but the point is for this employee it’s essentially asking him to take a pay it.

    17. Anonymous Hippo*

      I can’t imagine someone not having internet at their home. However, I don’t know how the company can expect him to pay for something he doesn’t already have when they changed the terms of the arrangement.

      Things don’t have to be even to be fair. Everybody else already had internet for their own use, so why would the company pay for that?

    18. Delta*

      Some of your internet usage should definitely be covered by the company – is this not standard? I know that where I live, I can claim a certain percentage of both my phone and internet bill on tax if my employer doesn’t provide it.

  42. baroncorbin*

    I walked out of a job 2 weeks ago. I know it’s bad. I could not deal with all the drama there. I never had a chance to fill out the w4 forms. It’s been 2 weeks since and they still have not paid me. Should I keep bothering the guy or take it up with the labor board?

    1. Eden*

      Have you said something like, “As you know [state] law requires the last paycheck be paid by X”? My Alison-senses tell me this is a good thing to try before involving the labor board. Not that you shouldn’t do whatever it takes to get your money, it just seems more expedient.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      How long were you on the job? They really should have collected that from you on Day 1. I would send an email to whoever manages payroll stating that you have been requesting to fill out a W-4 to allow you to collect your payment, and if they don’t respond by X date you will be filing a complaint with the state Department of Labor.

      1. baroncorbin*

        I was there for 2 days. This place is a poorly run local business run by 2 people. The guy said he was going to bring a w4 for my first day but didn’t. How long should I give them?

    3. RagingADHD*

      You don’t need them to give you a W4. You can fill it out from the IRS yourself, send them a copy, and ask when your check will be mailed.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Take it up with the labor board. It’s no big deal. That’s what they’re there for. I had to do this a couple of times. It might vary from state to state, but in my experience it got pretty quick results and I was paid what I was owed fairly quickly. (Like within a week of filing the complaint.)

  43. Malarkey01*

    Once it’s an OSHA safety requirement though, companies who don’t follow it will open themselves up for workmen’s comp and liability lawsuits related to CoVid. This also gives companies that want to require it but are nervous a shield against enforcement liability.

  44. Looking for change*

    I have recently decided that I don’t want to stay in my current job much longer (at most 1 year more) and am looking to make a career change.

    Here’s the problem: for practical reasons, I’ll probably be in this job for another 6 months to a year. How do I stay motivated at work in the meantime? For context, I work remotely and fairly independently with little day-to-day accountability. I’m doing just enough to keep the gears turning and meet deadlines with good but not great quality work, but no more than that.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve been in this boat many times. I try to focus on the kind of person/employee I want to be. Do I want to be/be known as the lazy coworker who barely does the minimum? Is that attitude going to get me the kinds of jobs I want? Also, what kind of reference will I want to get from this boss in the future?

      Good luck in the future job search!

  45. Mr. Tyzik*

    A local arm of a large nonprofit posted two positions for the type of work I do. Two colleagues and I applied for both positions.

    For one position, none of has heard anything. For the second, my colleagues got auto-replies within 24 hours but I heard nothing. I had submitted a cover letter with my resume which my colleagues did not. It’s been a week since we applied.

    Can I read anything into this? My assumption is that the ship has sailed, but I’m not sure. The postings are still open and promoted on professional sites – could it be that I won’t hear till they go through all applications? I’m trying not to go nuts. This is not a dream job, as it’s the same stuff I do now, yet I’m drawn by their mission, involved with them personally, and would love to work directly for them to help with their vision.

    Any advice or thoughts?

    1. Hellohellohello*

      I think a week is so short that it probably means nothing right now—from my nonprofit experience it was usually 2-4 weeks before we reached out to anyone who wasn’t an autoreject.

    2. PollyQ*

      1) I don’t think you can read anything into it; one week is nothing.
      2) Best advice is to assume you won’t get the job & keep searching. If they do get back to you, it’ll be a pleasant surprise.

  46. Ellis*

    How would you frame “I really wanted to work in X, which my employer is growing in, but after two years they’ve not provided me an opportunity” as a reason for leaving in a cover letter?

    I come from (let’s say) Teapot Painting and wanted to get into Teapot Consulting. I signed on to my current company because they were well known for Coffee Consulting and growing their Teapot Consulting arm and really talked up the opportunities for early-career people to pitch in, but after two years I have not gotten an opportunity to work in Teapot Consulting. I’m getting pretty fed up with trying and want to apply to a dedicated Teapot Consultancy, but that specialty can be very competitive.

    The specific company I want to apply for is very big on cover letters and really talks up passion for tea and teapots as the main thing they want to see in those letters. How do I explain my total move (seemingly) out of teapots and my lack of teapot consulting experience in my current role with tact?

    1. Countess of Upstairs Downstairs*

      For a cover letter, I think it’s better if you can focus on why you want to be in teapot consulting, and how your coffee consulting experience and teapot painting will contribute to to the new position you want.

      You would want them to understand your motivations for applying, and get them to see the values you can bring to the company, so they can be interested enough to move you to the interview stage. It’s not necessary to justify, explain, or defend your lack of experience or previous career moves in a cover letter. If you get to the interview stage, they might want to discuss that with you, but including it in the cover letter would be premature.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This. Explain what about that particular company interests you. Why are you passionate about teapot consulting? What transferable skills do you have and what kind of projects would you like to work on with this new employer? Keep it positive and then you won’t have to worry about spinning a negative in your cover letter.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      In addition to what was already said, consider something about having a background in teapot painting and coffee consulting. And when you had a chance to do a little teapot consulting, you realized that you want a 100% focus on teapot consulting.
      Like the others have said, it’s a positive. You have something you are going towards and looking for, so you are safe with that kind of language.

  47. Oxford_Comma*

    Apologies, this is long. I work in healthcare as a full time clinical staff member, working a set schedule. I’ve been with the company going on 4 years. Our entire department has had a contentious relationship with our manager and director for years, long before I got here. Our director was forced to take us on in addition to his own department, and doesn’t have much contact with us besides signing off on things at the end of the day. I thought I had a reasonably respectful relationship with Director as I’m well known as a hard worker who goes above and beyond for the department. But last week I had to take two sick days: A scheduled one on Monday for a procedure, and an unscheduled one on Tuesday for some unforeseen complications. We’re only asked to provide doctors notes for scheduled sick days so that they are excused and don’t count against us – I provided one for Monday. I saw another doctor on Wednesday to make sure everything was fine, and since I was already feeling better I return to work that day. I provided a second doctors note from my visit on Wednesday for my absence on Tuesday, but it wasn’t really necessary since our policy is to not require doctors notes for single unscheduled sick days. My Director for some reason still got hung up on the fact that I saw the doctor on Wednesday for a sick day the day before. He kept pressing me for more information, but when I pushed back and said it was sensitive health information he backed off a little. However he then implied that my note “wouldn’t cut it with HR”. HR usually doesn’t get involved in these things, so I immediately got concerned and asked him why HR would need to be involved, and if I was in trouble. He again backed off, but was visibly annoyed and left in a hurry. He did this in front of our entire department, which was pretty embarrassing. I’ve had pretty bad chronic health problems this year, but before this I had only called out three days before: one in June and two in February. How should I proceed? Address this with him one on one? Or just don’t get into it with him and quietly file for intermittent FMLA? I’d like to preserve the relationship if possible, but also don’t appreciate being treated like an errant teenager.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Since he backed off it looks like you made your point. Believe it or not you handled the situation quite well.

      You say the director’s relationship with the department is not good to begin with. So rather than framing it as an “errant teenager” which personalizes things, I’d try to move toward framing it as a “crappy, overworked boss” and realize he is just treating you the way he treats everyone else.

      I’d try talking to him one more time. Depending on how that went I might go to HR, just to get a solid feel of where things are at.

      As far as preserving the relationship, I’d let go of that goal as it’s probably not realistic. This is a person who has zero interest in having a good relationship with anyone, figure on not winning here. Keep in mind that he feels dumped on and stretched, he probably does not have brain space to be personable…. especially with his attitude.

    3. Fran Fine*

      Quietly file for FMLA. Yes, he backed off now, but do you really want to go through this every time your chronic illness flares up? Get it on record with HR what your issue is, what kind of accommodations you’ll need, and then if he starts acting up again in the future, direct him straight to HR to only confirm that they are aware of your doctors appointments and you don’t need to do anything further.

  48. Escaped a Work Cult*

    More of a hooray but I’m terrified about networking and I finally managed to send 1 email out to connect with someone new. It worked! Holy crap I did it!

  49. Alex*

    I’m really irritated about something that always happens on my team, and happened again this week. I’ve worked really hard over the past few years to understand and be able to troubleshoot and work in one of our systems for work. This is a really important for how our work has evolved. Mysteriously, no one else on my team, including my boss, has made much of an effort to learn this. They keep asking for “classes” they can take…but there aren’t any classes for this kind of stuff. You just have to sort of teach it to yourself. They will all make a plan for a few weeks to study it but rarely do any follow through.

    Anyway, whenever I’m asked for help, or have given help, my boss and teammates refer to my “magical” abilities to understand this stuff. When my boss requests my help, she will refer to me as “the oracle” or some other mystical being, rather than a hard worker who saw that this was important and made a big effort to learn.

    This language really bothers me because it implies that I have some sort of advantage that my colleagues couldn’t possibly be expected to have. It raises expectations for my work that aren’t commensurate with my pay (I’m not paid more than anyone else in spite of having to do all the troubleshooting and cleanup, on top of the same or larger workload. In fact, I’m paid less.) It’s almost like “Oh, well, this is easy for Alex so we will just let her do it, because we just don’t have the same innate knowledge.”

    Would it be petty for me to bring this up with my boss? I have gently pointed out to her a few times when she said “Oh, you magically fixed that,” and I said, “actually, I worked on it for a few hours and that is how I fixed it.” My colleagues just don’t want to be expected to put in any effort, and I feel like my efforts are invisible because they are all just “magical.” Am I being too sensitive about this?

    1. WellRed*

      Yes, you are being too sensitive. Is there something else going on instead that makes you feel undervalued or unappreciated and that’s why this bothers you?

    2. LimeRoos*

      Oh gosh no, bring it up. This happened with my husband, his ex-manager kept on calling him magic, without understanding what he did, and it hurt his standing with other higher ups because while magic is cool, they had no idea how much work and effort and whatnot hubby put into the process. So yeah, I’d definitely mention it once, and gently remind people that you worked to get this knowledge.

      1. Brownie*

        This. So much this. If it looks like magic to people because they don’t know about the time and effort it takes behind the scenes they start taking the magic for granted. My grandboss has always viewed me as working magic because I support 2x-5x the number of people compared to my coworkers. Earlier this year I had to sit down and tell him how much overtime I spend each week setting up and preparing to make things look like magic because otherwise he was going to add even more people to my support list, specifically the ones who demand fast turnarounds and hand-holding, because in his eyes my magic meant I must be able to take on even more work. Now I’m up for a pay band jump because he recognized how much work I was putting in.

        OP, speak up! I have never seen something like “Oh, well, this is easy for Alex so we will just let her do it, because we just don’t have the same innate knowledge” end well, in fact it usually ends with the person doing it being overwhelmed and burnt out, possibly even leaving for another job. If your boss and coworkers are not taking the gentle hint please stop being gentle and start being more direct. Make your effort known, don’t downplay all the work you put into learning!

        1. Alex*

          I definitely don’t downplay! I’ve tried to advocate for a promotion for myself, citing all the extra work I do because I’m called upon to do it. I’ve tried having it officially added to my job description.

          My boss claims she hears me, but tells me promotions, raises, and changes to job descriptions are impossible. She also tries to tell me to just not do this stuff (but then when things go sideways, she always runs to me for help, as does everyone else, and I can’t really say no about fixing a broken product for our customers). I think the “magic” part bothers me because it implies that my coworkers shouldn’t be expected to do these things, and honestly I think that those expectations should be for everyone if they are using them for me.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Your answer is right here.
            You can say out loud that everyone has the same things expected of them so everyone should be able to do this terrific feats also. Everyone can learn to do this so you don’t have to.

            And you can also say to your boss that she runs to you whenever there is a problem even though in conversation she tells you to say NO. Ask her point blank, “Do you mean that I should say no to you, my boss?”

            I will say this- you can start telling people that you will guide them through the process but they need to do it themselves so they can learn how to do it.

            I hope you find a better job some where else soon.

          2. Juneybug*

            Could your boss be lying about promotions, raises, and changes to job description being impossible? Maybe she rather not do the supposedly hard work so that’s her excuse? Would there be a way to talk to your support staff or HR to see what steps are needed?

          3. Workerbee*

            You CAN say no. After all, your boss has said no to you ever being anything other than you are, right now. Plus has in effect said no to her own edict of telling you to not do the magical stuff! Why is this okay with you?

            In fact, you must say no, for your own sake. You are letting “but it’s for the customers!” override your own well-being. Instead, let your amazingly helpless colleagues do something for a change, and use the time you will have freed up to polish your resume and get out of there.

    3. Reba*

      I think the pay and work distribution are the actual problems here, and that you are getting stuck on the terms of praise — which to be clear, I get that they are annoying! — but it’s sort of a minor part of the situation.

      Do you think you could raise this in a more big-picture way, like:
      “Hey Boss, thanks for the praise that I get for doing things with our system. But, because no one else has put in much effort with it, I feel like issues with the system A) always get pushed onto me, even when my plate is already full. And then B) as I’ve mentioned before, I feel the effort I’m putting in is dismissed when people say I’m magical, as if this work is easy to do. When these issues come up, it usually takes me X hours to solve, which I’m able to do because I’ve developed this expertise myself over Y years. I would like to talk about having this aspect of my responsibilities reflected in my next raise. And/or to take a serious look at my workload and whether this duty can be shared so that this is more sustainable for me.”

    4. Girasol*

      I used to document troubleshooting procedures. It generally needs a flow chart. Is this happening? Yes/no. If no, is that happening? If yes, then do this. I had one so complicated that it ended up five pages long and I didn’t understand the half of it, but I knew that it correctly reflected what I saw our magical troubleshooter do. Our team knew less than I did about the system and they could solve almost all the problems by following it, taking her out of the loop so she could do project work. Can you write such a chart, or team up with someone in documentation who can watch you work and create one from seeing what you do? Then you should be able to get away from being the magical go-to person.

    5. Dancing Otter*

      Late to reply, but I hope you see this.
      Since you said no training exists, why not write your own System XYZ guide? Before putting too much time into it, go to your boss and offer to conduct training. Say there have been repeated requests for recommended classes (including from her, if I read that correctly), and you would be willing to prepare and teach one in-house.
      Yes, it’s extra work NOW, but saves you time in the long run.
      They won’t need to bother you as often if they learn to do (most of) it themselves. Or else, they will see for themselves how difficult it is, and at least respect you more for your demonstrated expertise.

  50. duck*

    This is a bit of a philosophical discussion. Did anyone grow up in a vaguely equality based environment but not really delve into the issue, now older realising just how bad the woman career track is? And they may have gotten trapped on it?

    There was a few articles recently that pointed out fewer men are going to college. A rebuttal argument was written that yeah women go to college but they still earn less. Actually, women frequently end up in jobs that require advanced degrees but pay very little. I see this all the time – why do admin roles, non-profits, communications, publishing, marketing and so on require a graduate degree?

    I’ve always been drawn to woman centric jobs and I wonder if that was my interests or a societal push. I don’t have kids but if I had a daughter I’d be seriously sitting her down and saying – these are the jobs that pay. You can of course pursue your dreams or interests but at least you want do it cluelessly.

    It is really disturbing me how many women are working in professional roles that require only a modest amount of knowledge and you have to have a graduate degree. Who is putting in place these expectations? Are we doing this to ourselves?

    1. Alex*

      I think these are two separate issues. First, roles traditionally held by women are often lower paid regardless of skill or knowledge needed. Is teacher pay commensurate with the work and skill level needed? I don’t think so. And caregiving jobs, though hard work and incredibly valueable, often pay minimum wage.

      I think, though, that the list of fields you put out there as needing a graduate degree need on due to the high interest in those kinds of jobs. I work in one of those fields, and most of the jobs at my workplace do not REQUIRE a graduate degree…but most people have one anyway, because those jobs are so highly sought after that almost everyone is overqualified, and if you don’t have a graduate degree, there are going to be a large number of candidates who do have one and will get picked over you. So, it’s not really about those fields “needing” the degree, but rather, too many people have these kinds of degrees.

      1. duck*

        You mention teachers. There’s a good example. You have it listed I think as a traditionally women’s job. Men used to teach in large numbers. They left when the pay stagnated.

        I just wonder if maybe women should stop waiting for the world to change for them and be more proactive. Stop doing jobs that don’t pay. I know someone has to do that but if women went on strike from doing low paid jobs then things might change. We’re like lemmings off a cliff containing to go into professionals like teaching when the pay is in the toilet. It’s not enough to be paid in loving what you do. Men might be onto something in their continual push for good paying jobs.

        1. Sutemi*

          I think you have cause and effect reversed here. When women entered the field, the pay dropped. Its been documented in many fields (teaching, computing, secretarial, etc)

        2. Chaordic One*

          I’ve read that back in the late 1800s and early 1900s it was supposedly fairly common for secretarial and clerical support jobs to be held by men, but that when women were recruited to fill those positions at lower levels of pay, it drove down wages for men and they left the field.

      2. Spearmint*

        This. I don’t want to downplay societal sexism’s role in this, but a large part of this phenomenon is simple supply and demand. For whatever reason, the demand for many male-coded professions that require a 4-year degree outstrips supply, whereas the reverse is true for many female-coded professions. This isn’t always true, though. Video game development is a heavily male-coded field that also has lower pay and poor working conditions because so many people want to work in it, for example.

        1. duck*

          I don’t think it is a coincidence that male dominated jobs are higher paying. Men are avoiding college at a higher rate, yet still managing to be paid more than women. Women continue to go to college year after year to obtain advanced degrees in low paying fields. We should ask why this is and what we can do about it.

            2. AcademiaNut*

              You can see this in reverse as well – as a field gets more prestigious and lucrative, the percentage of women in it drops. The fraction of women in computer science, for example, actually decreased as it became a better paying, high status job.

      3. Fran Fine*

        I think, though, that the list of fields you put out there as needing a graduate degree need on due to the high interest in those kinds of jobs. I work in one of those fields, and most of the jobs at my workplace do not REQUIRE a graduate degree…but most people have one anyway, because those jobs are so highly sought after that almost everyone is overqualified, and if you don’t have a graduate degree, there are going to be a large number of candidates who do have one and will get picked over you.

        Is this communications by chance? Because I’m a comms manager, and none of the roles I’ve seen advertised or applied for have required an advanced degree (though a lot of the ads said a masters would be a “nice to have”) – but many of my colleagues have a masters anyway. I think your analysis for why that is is spot on accurate. The only reason I finally managed to snag a comms position is because I was an internal hire who did a job that was tangentially related. I have no advanced degree and don’t intend to get one, so it’ll be interesting to see what my job prospects will look like when it’s time for me to move on.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      I think it’s mostly due to the reality that the workforce is still not set up to function well for dual-income families, and women often bear the burden of that gap. I knew a lot of women in grad school who decided to pursue higher ed because they were told they needed a degree for the career they wanted. Fast forward a few years, and many of these same smart, well-educated women are burnt out trying to care for their children, manage pregnancies, run their homes, and have demanding careers. So they compromise and scale back, and a lot of the time their career is the thing that takes the hit. So now you have a bunch of well-educated women looking for lower stress positions with flexible hours, so you end up with over-qualified underemployed women. You could argue that in a dual income household, men and women should equally share childcare and household duties, but that’s just not the reality for a lot of families – especially at the pregnancy/baby stage, family life takes a lot out of the parent who carries the child and most employers aren’t very accommodating of those needs.

    4. Reba*

      You might be interested in the work of Tressie McMillan Cotton on credential seeking — her book, “Lower Ed” about for-profit colleges as well as her blog and various things around the internet. There is also a classic sociology book, “The Credential Society” by Randall Collins, that argues that higher education has not reduced inequality but instead created more rungs on the ladder of degree inflation.

      1. duck*

        I see it as a tax on entering and being part of the middle class or upper middle class.

        In my country to enter into elite circles you basically have to pay a tax in the form of private school, elite college, right expensive hobbies like skiing, right outfits and so on, travel etc. Then to stay in the upper class you must then pay out the same for your kids. You can’t just get a high paying job out of nowhere and keep all the money and live frugally, you will have to give a portion of it over to the norms or you will be excluded from said high paying job.

    5. Girasol*

      I just read an article that pointed out that there are good jobs for men in trades that don’t need a college degree. There are few such jobs for women, it said, so if they want to be paid well, they must to go to college. And that results in college enrollment skewed to women. I read this without noticing at first several logic gaps. Women can be skilled plumbers and electricians too, of course. And if they do go to college they can end up being well educated but badly underpaid teachers, etc. I think the biases and illogic about the career world do need to be spelled out for girls in detail. When I was a senior in high school an advisor suggested that with my grades I might consider going into engineering. I thought that was pretty funny because anyone knows that girls don’t drive locomotives. The cluelessness of all kids, but most especially girls, with respect to careers should not be underestimated.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think people try to help their kids in the ways they know how. For his era my father was radical. He informed me that I would be taking 4 years of science and 4 years of math in high school. (yikes!!!) I had an uncle who said education was wasted on women because women were not teachable- so you can see how “out there” my father was for his time.
      He used to tell me I could be anything I wanted to be. BUT that was all he said- that one sentence. It did not give me a lot to go on. People who don’t know, can’t teach their kids.

      Once in school and dealing with other places for career counseling- I got the standard, “You are a woman so you can be a teacher, a nurse or a secretary.” I listened to this crap all the way up to the 1990s. I just took it as, “I have no clue how to help you!” I did not waste time with people who said this stuff.

      I do think that schools could do more to help women become more aware of what is out there and how to find something that would mesh with their skills and abilities. Personality tests are NOT the answer. This takes the hard work of one-on-one conversations.

      My own conclusion is that it pours in from every angle. The problem is staggering. I worked in a nursery while I was in my 20s. A woman customer came in and told me- that it was biologically impossible for me to understand plants. This is because as a woman part of my brain is missing. It was a male dominated field and the customers both men and women would frequently ask to speak to a man. Most days there was a 45 minute wait to see a man. After a bit we stopped telling them what the wait time was and just said, “Oh okay.” After waiting 45 minutes my male colleague would finally get to the customer and then say, “Oh NSNR knows more about that than I do.” The sexism among the customers was rampant and there was no good way to fight it.

      More recently, I worked in a low level management position in a grocery store. The story that went around there was if you are a woman you are not safe with your cohorts on nightshift. The standard advice was to keep your cell on you at all times. This rumor was shared by men and women. (wtf)

  51. Sara without an H*

    This is a thought exercise: What would you do if you found evidence on social media that an employee of yours had behaved badly, although not criminally, in public?

    A friend of mine and her husband attended the opening home football game of our state university. The stadium is open-air, but the crowds were pretty dense, and my friends decided to wear masks, even though they are both fully vaccinated. Some woman came up and harassed them verbally for wearing masks, saying they looked “weird.” She did it more than once and, while not threatening, she was pretty obnoxious, and my friends finally went and got the security guards to intervene.

    I found out about all this via my friend’s post on social media, which included a good, clear photo of the woman who harassed them. Several people around my friends also, apparently, took photos or videos of the incident.

    Now just suppose I saw my friend’s photos, or any of those taken by bystanders, and recognized the culprit as someone who reported to me. What would be an appropriate response? This isn’t in the same category as finding out via social media that you knew one of the rioters at the Capitol back in January. On the other hand, it would concern me, and I’d have doubts about the employee’s maturity and judgement.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Harassing people for wearing masks is a pretty big deal. This isn’t just refusing to wear a mask herself, or griping about it on social media. She went out and verbally assaulted people. What would you do if your hypothetical employee had harassed people for any other reason? What’s the difference between harassing mask-wearers and harassing people entering Planned Parenthood?

      1. Picard*

        As repugnant as I think either types of harassment are, I don’t think you should do anything. This is activity done off from work. She was not arrested. She was not wearing your company tshirt (I assume) I guess it also depends on your company and their mission statement. If you guys were a health company, it might fall a little worse to have someone shouting anti-vax sentiments ya know?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Okay, but she’s not just out there on her own shouting anti-vax sentiments. She’s harassing someone in public, to the point that security guards were called to step in.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            I really don’t see how this is any different than if someone was drunk at a sporting event and got caught being escorted out by security. It’s not a great look by any means and probably merits a conversation but I can’t see any way this is a fireable offense unless the company handbook specifies something like this. It would definitely make me question the employee’s judgment though and make me rethink promotional opportunities and other chances for this person to get ahead at work.

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              So, serious question… what’s your opinion on people who lose their jobs after, for example, calling the police on a man watching birds in the park, just because he’s black? Do you think that’s overkill?

              1. Eden*

                Wow, really? Calling the police on a black man and saying “he’s threatening me” = a literal risk to that man’s life. Being obnoxious and non-threatening (per OP’s account) is not a literal threat to someone’s life.

              2. Dino*

                Mask-wearing is not a protected class. There isn’t centuries-long history of violence and discriminations against mask-wearers. And no one submitted a false police report or did any other integrity-questioning activity.

                I’m vaccinated and still mask, and I for sure don’t want to be around antimasking assholes at work, but it’s just not the same thing as white people calling the cops for someone [verb]ing while Black.

                1. pancakes*

                  I think drunkenly heckling people at an event can bring someone’s integrity into question, even if security doesn’t get involved. It’s incredibly boorish and reflects a lack of self-control. The nature of the harm they are causing is categorically different than the harm caused by someone being racist and calling on police to enforce their racism. The idea that because both examples are bad behavior, they’re comparable, is incredibly obtuse. A heckler can regain self-control, and even if they generally aren’t good at that, isn’t much of a threat to their coworkers or the general public. We can’t say the same of a racist.

    2. Eden*

      I would do nothing. That behavior sucks but does not rise anywhere near the level of me putting up with jobs policing what we do in our off time.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        Big disagree.

        It’s one thing to smoke weed, play D&D, or be into bondage on your own time. That affects you and the people you invite into that circle.

        This person is harassing other people in public. That’s a HUGE difference.

    3. Irish girl*

      I can see your concern if you are public facing and that employee might berate customers. Also people have been fired for harassing others on camera not at their job. Is there anything else that would concern you about their behavior at your place of work?

    4. HigherEdAdminista*

      I would let this person go.

      Remove the issue of masks and imagine the situation. Someone harassed someone in public regarding their physical appearance or manner of dress and was so persistent and obnoxious about it that they had to be removed by security. This isn’t one rude comment and then she kept it moving. She continued to stay and harass and bully people repeatedly.

      Actions have consequences and you might only know about this because the people she chose to harass were friends of yours, but that goes to show that you have to treat people decently in this world because you never know how it will come back to bite you. Not to mention that you shouldn’t need a threat of consequences to be a decent person.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        This. I think it really gets to the heart of the matter when you remove the mask issue. This person committed some horrible actions and they should have consequences. (Honestly, she could have just kept her mouth shut.)

        Now throw in the fact that we are still in the middle of a global pandemic and she is behaving this way. Bad behavior to the nth degree!

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          AND makes it more charged and potentially damaging for the company if the post went viral and she was identified.

          I don’t know if I’d jump to firing but I might at least address it in some sort of “note in the personnel file” way.

          I agree with the comment above that the type of org she works for might warrant more drastic measures.

        2. Eden*

          I see it the opposite way. Remove the mask/covid angle and imo you’re left with someone who was rude and obnoxious which is not a fireable offense. I do not love firing people for being rude and obnoxious while off the clock.

          I mean I guess you don’t have to remove the mask/covid angle but if you do it certainly doesn’t become worse.

    5. PollyQ*

      SAP just fired an employee of theirs who was caught on video aggressively & tauntingly coughing on masked shoppers in a grocery store. I think you could legitimately let this person go, although on the flip side, I wouldn’t say that you’re obliged to.

      1. Paris Geller*

        I agree.
        I get the reaction of not wanting to police what employees do in their off time, but what tips the line for me is that they continued to harass people until security had to intervene. Like others have said, that goes from being rude and inconsiderate to an actual verbal altercation.

      2. Girasol*

        I agree that in general what you do in your off hours is your own business, but I think SAP was right. Her behavior was glaring enough to be newsworthy, which could potentially be bad publicity for her employer. It was bad enough that it would likely sour good working relationships with coworkers who knew of it. She demonstrated way more than a little poor judgment when employers want employees with good judgment. If she’d been caught having one too many at a party, or going 60 in a 50 zone, or wearing a swimsuit that’s overly revealing, that should not be her employer’s concern. But she was pretty far beyond that.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You came up with a good hypothetical, witness the range of opinions you’re getting on this.

      Accosting strangers who are just minding their own business, engaged in perfectly normal, law abiding behavior is a really worrying sign to me.

      I’d be watching this employee like a hawk to make sure she’s not being a busybody at work, either as regards the job or with respect to other staffers’ personal business. Because it’s a very short jump from “You look weird wearing a mask” to “You’re a slut for wearing that skirt” or “No wonder you’re so bad at llama grooming, you went to Whassamatta U.”

    7. mediamaven*

      There was a woman who worked for SAP who was fired this week for this type of behavior. I would report it. That does not belong in our society and they deserve to be fired. If you don’t want to wear a mask then you do you – but you don’t get to attack people like that.

    8. Delta*

      I wouldn’t mention it, but I would keep an eye on that person in their role. Make sure that they are adhering to your company’s policy on mask wearing and isn’t harrassing others that are wearing masks.

  52. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    Embarrassing and a bit gross scenario: I kinda got some blood on my office chair (didn’t realise menopause equals never knowing when that’s gonna happen!). I scrubbed it as best I could and there’s still a stain. At the moment I’ve draped a scarf over it.

    Do I tell my boss? My chair is specialist so would cost a lot to replace. Would they be right if they asked me to pay for it?

    1. Picard*

      Fist bump for the unpredictable menoperiods. :p

      I would probably try some more attempts to remove the stain before doing anything else. What color is the chair?

        1. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

          As Mental LEntil mentioned, try peroxide. it’s pretty good at blood stains and not damaging the original fabric color.

          And hang in there. *sends supportive vibes*

      1. the cat's pajamas*

        Yes, and do a test spot first if you’re worried about it, blot with a paper towel. My friend who is a pro housecleaner uses peroxide, its saved me many times!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Also there is a product called Woolite Insta Clean with Oxy that literally works wonders. It’s made for pet stains, but I think it works on anything biological. Don’t know if it’s available where you are.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      Tide pens work really well for blood! I’ve also had success with boiling water and dish soap, although that might be difficult with an office chair.

    5. Cute Li'l UFO*

      Maybe an enzymatic cleaner (don’t knock the pet stain ones!) but perioxide should really do something. It can also bleach/lighten fabrics but… hey, better bleach than blood, right?

      That’s what I did to my poor old cheapie office chair after a biopsy… I thought I was the safe zone.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Try the enzyme cleaner before hydrogen peroxide! Your chair would be worse with a “peroxide blonde” patch in the middle.

    6. higheredrefugee*

      I reported it to my office manager, who had the custodial staff clean it specially for me. They had lots of tricks up their sleeves for messes in higher ed though.

    7. fueled by coffee*

      You can try one of those stain stick pens, too. I’m not sure what your chair is made out of, but period blood usually comes out with detergent (hence the Tide To-Go pens) if you catch it early enough.

    8. Gothic Bee*

      You have my sympathy because this has happened to me before too, but luckily at home. If it were me, I’d try to clean the stain out myself using some of the suggestions here (pick up something designed to get blood stains out or try hydrogen peroxide). If I couldn’t get it out, I’d check in with my boss. Also, if you have custodial staff at your workplace, I would contact them. They should have the necessary supplies to deal with bodily fluids (I’m at a university, so we have staff for that, but I know not everywhere does).

      I wouldn’t expect them to make you pay for it to be cleaned (even if they had to pay someone to do so), but if you wanted a brand new chair, I think it wouldn’t be out of bounds for them to ask you to pay for it (assuming the chair is still usable). If it really is ruined to the point the stain doesn’t come out, another option might be just reupholstering the seat, which might be cheaper than buying an entire new chair, and I would hope they wouldn’t make you pay for that either.

    9. Elle Woods*

      There’s a solution called Folex that works like a charm. It’s available at many home improvement stores. Good luck!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Get some Nature’s Miracle and spray it on there just before you leave at night.
      Say nothing to the boss, you should be okay here.

  53. Liane*

    Writers & editors
    I am negotiating with a freelance game designer on editing a forthcoming roleplaying game of his. I’ve worked with him on games blog, so he is familiar with my work. But this will be my first paid editing gig outside the blog, which pays me a small quarterly stipend for my own articles plus proofreading (final copy edit before publication). I am not sure but there may be more than 1 editor.
    Other writers have directed me to sites for rate guidelines, so I have that covered.
    Questions:
    1. Any tips for proofreading/copy editing longer pieces? RPG books usually range from 100 pages to several hundred. The longest I have done was about 80 pages.
    2. Any ideas about rates if I am also doing what some RPG companies call “technical editing”? This is editing and evaluating game mechanics, character stats, rules, etc. It’s more difficult and I am not nearly as experienced with it, but can do it. I will be frank about this if Dev wants me to do this.

  54. Alexis*

    My husband got a job offer yesterday — kind of. It was an email that said congratulations, we’re offering you the position, pending background check! We’re so excited that you’ll be joining our team!

    However, there was no salary or benefits listed. The email made it sound like my husband had already accepted. It was pretty odd.

    He replied saying, “Thanks so much! I will fill out the background check form asap. Will you be sending the salary and benefits information packet soon? I’d like to review before I accept.” Just to clarify that he HADN’T accepted the job yet, and still wants to review and negotiate.

    Do you think that was the right response? Anything else he should keep in mind moving forward? It was a strange way to receive an offer, so he’s just not exactly sure how to proceed.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Weird they’d say he’s getting the job “pending background check.” I would just do the background check first, and then make a real offer if the background check looked good.

      1. Alldogsarepuppies*

        I feel like offers contingent of background check/references are super common – that doesn’t raise a red (or any other color) flag to me.

        1. Alexis*

          Yeah, the background check part wasn’t the weird part to us, because I’ve had that before too. It was more the assumption that he already accepted an “offer” that he hadn’t even seen yet.

          Thanks everyone for your input!

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          I’ve had jobs do background checks before making me an offer, but they don’t usually tell me I have the job, pending a background check. They usually say they’ll do the background check, and then offer me the job when the check is done.

          I’m not saying it’s a red flag. I’m just not sure what they’re hoping to convey to the husband here. It’s not a real offer.

          1. RosyGlasses*

            Legally (in most states) you cannot do the background check first before the offer. You must proceed with an offer and make it contingent – thereby proceeding with the assumption that they are legally able to take the job.

      2. PollyQ*

        I agree that makes more sense to do the background check first, but I’ve heard of a lot of companies doing it this way.

        It’s far weirder not to even mention a salary. It’s like saying, “Congratulations! We’ve decided to buy your house!” without saying how much you’re offering for it.

      3. Hiring Mgr*

        Most offers I’ve given and received do it like that. I always figured it’s because background checks are 99% just a box to check, so you wouldn’t want your top choice candidate waiting for an extra week or two not knowing

    3. CTT*

      I think that was appropriate; I’m guessing there was a miscommunication on who had sent what info. (Speaking from semi-related experience, I found out I got into law school when I received an email from the financial aid office saying “congratulations again on your acceptance, here’s information on a scholarship you’re getting.” Turned out the actual acceptance letter got lost in the mail.)

    4. Girasol*

      Maybe it was just a mistake but he should consider whether it’s a red flag. This may be one of those “You’re just lucky you have a job” employers that has a lack of concern over employees’ well-being.

      1. Alexis*

        Yeah, that is slightly our concern, because it is a non-profit, so we’re hoping it’s not implied that he should just be happy for the offer regardless of salary and benefits, just because he cares about their mission. He still hasn’t heard anything back since yesterday…

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I got a tentative written offer that included some but not most of the key info (e.g. salary but not benefits or start date), and was also contingent on a background check. I had to formally accept the offer to continue the process, which was a little concerning because what am I accepting, exactly? But it was made clear in the text that this was tentative only and not to resign any current job because this was not the final offer.

      Some places just don’t have the most straightforward messaging around offers like this. I think his response is fine and hopefully they will respond that they’ll send the info as requested in the form of a final offer soon.

      1. Alexis*

        Thanks, everyone, for the responses! We are still waiting to hear anything back about salary or benefits.

  55. Red*

    I’ve got a COVID related question.
    My coworker (and friend) just tested positive for COVID. However, they were in denial and trying to convince themselves their symptoms were their annual (admittedly extremely terrible) allergies and they came to work on Wednesday. On Tuesday though another employee (a temp) had called in saying they had COVID and my coworker had spent a significant amount of time last Friday with this COVID+ person. Everyone (except me) was unmasked at the time. I told the coworker on Tuesday that they were exposed, but they were like, ‘no way can i have covid, I’m vaccinated’. They ended up in the hospital last night and they’re COVID+.
    They’ll be staying home until clear of symptoms, but our office is very antimask. I’m the only masker and a double masker at that.
    I have two questions:
    How can I politely tell people to stay tf away from me?
    How angry should I be at my coworker/friend for risking us all? (And by extension my family at home who are in at-risk demographics.)

    1. Red*

      Extra context:
      We have plenty of COVID hours and no one is penalized for staying home even if it turns out it’s just a cold.
      Their work was not so urgent that they couldn’t’ve stayed home a few days.
      I’m unvaccinated and I have relatives at home who are unvaccinated and in high-risk categories if they catch COVID so I’m extremely vigilant about my potential exposure to COVID. I did avoid co-worker/friend to the extent it’s possible when they came in on Wednesday.

      1. Irish girl*

        Well technically if they were symptom free the CDC doesnt require them to quarantine after a known exposure which really should change. Plus the symptom list of Covid doesnt track exactly with allergy symptoms so I can see why they were in denial. You can tell people to stay back 6 feet which is ok as long as you do it in a courtesy manner.
        As for being mad, you are risking yourself being unvaccinated even wearing a mask at work. If they were exposed Friday and didnt know until Tuesday you were exposed to it on Monday, you need to weight what good anger would do you. Yes they continued to expose people after they knew which is not right but if they had gotten you sick before they knew, would you still be mad at them?

        1. Red*

          At this time my doctor has recommended I don’t get the vaccine because I have previous medical history that puts me at a higher risk for complications. My coworker/friend knew I was currently unvaccinated and will be for the foreseeable future. (Though my Dr is following updates on the vaccines and we’re hopeful about the Pfizer one!)

          Thankfully Monday was a holiday so our only day of exposure was this Wednesday. If we hadn’t known about the exposure and I had been exposed I likely would have been more on the annoyed level not livid (because they regularly don’t wear a mask because the cdc says if you’re vaccinated you don’t need one). But they were told they were exposed, they had covid like symptoms and they chose to come to work. There are some mitigating factors but after reading a couple other comments I’m coming down on rightfully angry about this situation.

      2. LizB*

        Okay, I missed the part where you’re not vaccinated. The number one thing you can do to protect yourself and your relatives is to get the vaccine. Yes, your friend behaved irresponsibly, but your own unvaccinated status made the situation much more risky for you and your loved ones than it needed to be.

    2. Paris Geller*

      Honestly I would be livid.
      They would not be a friend after that. It’s great that they were vaccinated, but it doesn’t take a deep understanding of virology to understand that if they spent time with someone who had Covid, unmasked, and they had symptoms (even if they resembled their typical allergy symptoms), they could have a breakthrough infection. I do hope your coworker recovers, but I’d still be highly upset.

      1. Fran Fine*

        So many vaccinated people believe the vaccine is a super shield that will
        100% keep them COVID-free, no other mitigation strategies needed.

    3. LizB*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this, and that your coworkers are sick. For your first question, do you have the option to work from home or shut yourself in an office/conference room? Can you put up a sign at your cubicle
      that says “please keep your distance!” or “masks required to talk to Red!”? Can you just tell people, “Hey, given that Bob and Lou have now gotten sick, I’m trying to be more cautious, so please give me some space”? This SHOULD be a reality check for everyone at your office (you have a coworker in the hospital who came to work sick!!) so maybe some of them will be more inclined to respect your boundaries, even if they don’t change their own.

      As for your second question… if your coworker/friend has the option to WFH or take PTO, I would be livid, frankly. There’s no excuse right now to come to work sick unless it’s financially prohibitive. And ESPECIALLY after being TOLD they were exposed to a positive case!! Actually, I’m kind of changing my mind, I think I’d be livid almost no matter what, either at your friend for coming in if WFH or PTO are options, or at the company for not making WFH or PTO available to people who have been exposed. Someone has certainly done a shitty job of protecting you all; it just depends whether that’s due to company policy or your coworker’s individual choice.

      1. Red*

        Upper management isn’t fond of masks though they are mandatory without exception in the manufacturing plant. Some people have WFH, but more importantly we all have PTO and we even have a special bank of COVID PTO. The coworker’s job is such that they couldn’t do it from home anyway, but they’ve been with the company for over a decade and while I don’ track their time off they earn several PTO hours every check (They’re at a tier where they can earn a month every year and it rolls over annually. It’s capped at two months. I’m positive they had time in the bank.)
        My gut was to be livid, but they are of a different socio economic and cultural background then the rest of us, so to a certain degree I’m not sure how serious they believed COVID to be. (I’m also positive any discussion of virology would go over their head. They barely grasp the concept of variants.)

        I went ahead and just made an announcement that no one is allowed within 6 feet of me and especially not without a mask (which suddenly they all feel compelled to wear lol)

        1. LizB*

          It really, really sucks that there isn’t widespread acceptance of the facts about how serious this pandemic is. I think it’s valid to be livid and also valid to understand your specific coworker’s situation within the broader context of misinformation that’s out there. Should they have known how risky their actions were? One hundred percent! Did they? Well, it sure doesn’t seem like they did; they seem more likely to have be acting out of ignorance than malice. That doesn’t mean you have to forgive them or be friends with them moving forward, though, especially if they still don’t take safety seriously once they’ve hopefully recovered.

          1. Red*

            I’ll wait until their back to see how contrite they are about this or if they’re still treating the situation cavalierly before I decide if this is enough to stop being friends and just professionals in the same building.

        2. pancakes*

          Not cool to suggest that people from socio-economic groups and cultures other than your own are incapable of comprehending the dangers of a worldwide pandemic because of their socio-economic and cultural backgrounds. Unless there is a problem with your workplace not translating its mask and social distancing policies into the language(s) employees speak, this is misguided at best. You are saying something rather bigoted and couching it in the language of cultural sensitivity.

          1. Red*

            I didn’t say they were incapable of comprehending the dangers of a worldwide pandemic. It’s more of a comment that they come from a disenfranchised background that is frequently overlooked in our community. In my particular area there was a push to really communicate in English how dangerous this was and not so much in any other languages despite the fact that there is a significant population of people who don’t speak English in our area. (For example, the local bank closed due to COVID and they only posted the sign in English explaining this, leading to a back up of people who don’t speak English waiting in a line around the bank for it to open because they couldn’t read the sign.) My coworker speaks English but comes from this background. I am aware of the fact that there continues to be a disparity in information as it’s communicated to this particular group of people and that this coworker is more inclined to believe community leaders who may or may not have accurate information then other sources.

            The comment about it going over their head is specific to this particular person because I have explained to them (in a friend capacity) multiple times how the virus works, why masking works, why they should get vaccinated (which is something they were initially against because of the alternate information they were receiving in their community environment), what the variants are, and what breakthrough cases are. A lot of the time this was met with either a sort of blank “wow” or [insert misinformation counter fact].

            1. pancakes*

              The one sentence about these things maybe going over your friend’s head isn’t really the point. The point is, your friend is not an ambassador for or representative of other people from their same same socio-economic or cultural background.

              Unrelatedly, a blank wow expression can mean a few different things. “I don’t follow what this person is saying” is one possibility. “I don’t want to be having this conversation and am going to try to hasten the end of it by not participating much” is another. Etc.

              1. Hannah*

                Also, your coworker seems to have understood well enough to get vaccinated, putting them ahead of a lot of people in terms of taking the pandemic seriously.

        3. Black Horse Dancing*

          I am worried about your high risk relatives who are unvaccinated. You stated you have a medical risk to the vaccine. Do they all have risks?

    1. Mental Lentil*

      Oh yes, I love that site!

      The lemonading story has to be one of my favorites. It gets reposted every once in a while.

  57. Cat Tree*

    I’m returning from 3 months of maternity leave next week. Any advice for pumping breaks for breast milk? Our company policy allows it, I found the lactation room, and my boss is fully supported. For some reason I assumed I would need 3 pumping breaks a day, but it looks like I would need 4 or 5. I feel like I’ll spend more time pumping than working. I’m salary so the exact timing isn’t important, but when am I supposed to get any work done? I did not expect this to be the most difficult part of being a working mother. Any advice from people who have done this?

    1. Irish girl*

      I think you need to consider you daily hours and your work. You also need to consider how important pumping is to you. I pumped 3 (30 including clean up) times a day for 2 kids. I had a 7.75 day plus 45 mins unpaid lunch. That meant if I didnt take my lunch I had 45 mins pumping time for my lunch and then another 45 mins that I was not working but still being paid. My pumping room had a phone and a desk and once I was back into the swing of work and pumping, I was able to do some work while I was pumping as it did not have an effect on my output but that is not the case for all women.
      Have you looked into the handsfree pumps like Elvie? Or maybe Freemie pump or Freemie cups with a battery pump?

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I was fortunate to still be WFH while I pumped so I don’t have experience with doing it in an office setting, but I can speak to the timing. How long is your commute, and can you pump while you drive? Look into Freemies or Pumpin Pals, both of which allow you to pump without leaning forward. My pumping schedule at 3-6 months was something like 5:30, 9, 1, 5, 9, MOTN (I was an exclusive pumper) – so if you can get one in the early early AM, one on your commute in, and on on your commute home you’ll only need to take one or two actual pumping breaks. If you have a private office, you can certainly pump there so you don’t have to trek all the way to the lactation room (unless you want to). Some women can bring a laptop and continue working without affecting their output, but others need to fully relax and look at pictures/videos of their baby to get a letdown. Either way, block that time on your calendar and do not accept any meetings (unless you can turn video/sound off and just listen, if that works for you).

      I would recommend getting as many sets of flanges as times you pump in the day – it’s a lot easier to just chuck the dirty ones in a plastic bag and wash them all when you get home than deal with washing each of them every time you pump. If you continue pumping past 6ish months, you should be able to cut down on the number of pumps a day to get the same output. I think by 7/8/9 months I was pumping 3-4 times a day, which is a lot easier to schedule. Check out the website Exclusive Pumping dot com for a lot of great tips and schedules. Good luck!

    3. Ann Perkins*

      How long is your typical commute and workday? I’ve never pumped more than 3x per day but only had a 20 minute commute. Do you have a laptop you can take with you to the pumping room? Documents to read through? I’m salary also so time wasn’t tracked but yes, it can be hard to get everything done. There are a lot of hands free pumping bra options so that you can do other things at the same time. Simple Wishes on amazon is a popular one.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        Also, put the pump parts in a ziploc and keep in the fridge between sessions, then take home and wash at the end of the day. They don’t have to be washed after each use.

    4. Another JD*

      Pack up and practice with your pumping kit at home in a room you don’t usually use before trying it at the office to make sure you have everything. At home you may not need a wet bag, pump wipes, a mat to lay out your kit, surface sanitizing wipes, ice packs, etc. I got a car adapter for my Spectra, and pumped on the way to and from work which cut my work day pumps down to 3. Pumps will also go down as your LO gets older.

      Also be sure to protect your pump time on your schedule. There’s nothing worse than a bursting boob when a meeting runs long!

      Good luck!

    5. A Pack Leader*

      I only pumped max of 3x per day. If you have a long commute without baby and a long work day I could see how you *might* need to pump 5x, but that definitely seems like a lot.

    6. Bayta Darrell*

      I was wfh when I was pumping, but I would suggest getting a good pumping bra that will hold the flanges for you. If you’re able to get a computer in the pumping room, you may be able to get some work done while you pump. I was able to set my pump up at my desk at home, so then I was only taking time away from work to set up and put everything away. But I also second getting multiple flanges so you don’t have to bother washing them.

  58. Time Tracker Website*

    So I’ve been brought back from furlough after over a year and now my small company (we went from 10 to 4 people) is asking us to track all of the projects we work on on a website called Clockify. I can understand how this is useful if you are a freelancer and you’re trying to clock the amount of hours you’re working for a specific client, and in our case we are event planners who work on multiple events throughout the day. Our clients don’t pay us by the hour and are charged a % of the overall budget instead, the company owner had a really hard time collecting money from clients who canceled their events last year because we earn more money the higher the budget is and obviously you don’t earn money on $0 when the event is canceled. But we do put a lot of work and effort into everything we plan so our boss wants to be able to go back to our clients to prove how many hours of work we put into the event and try to get compensated for it.

    But this tracker is exhausting. First of all I’m pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD so remembering to track my hours is hard, never mind that my work flow is not conducive to focusing on one project for several hours. I tend to jump between projects when I lose focus and sometimes other urgent things pop up throughout the day. Then on top of that our company is not very busy right now so I don’t actually have 8 hours of work, it stresses me out when I’m only clocking 4 hours a day of actual work on projects. My boss says it’s not to track our productivity while working from home but he will make comments like “So you logged 4 hours yesterday.” I try to fill the remainder of the time but doing expense reports (not billable to clients) or organizing our digital files, but let’s face it sometimes I’m on my phone or making a snack or talking to my husband in the other room.

    This time tracker thing is exhausting. It actually drains me. Quantifying my work in such a way and having to track the hours I spend just sucks. Anyone else feel this way?

    1. RagingADHD*

      I had to track billable time pretty much from the beginning of my working life, so I got used to it, but it is a hassle.

      When I started, I would print out a daily sheet divided up into time increments (6 minutes or 15 minutes, or whatever you round to). Then I’d write the project on the time I started, and when I switched tasks, I’d mark the bottom of that time block and draw an arrow.

      If I was batching tasks for multiple clients, I’d block out the time spent on the batch and divide it equally among them. If I was working nonbillable, I’d mark that too. Then at the end of the day or the week, I’d input my time.

      Nowadays I just jot my start and end times down on my paper calendar or my notepad. Sometimes I’ll forget a start or stop tine, but I can almost always figure it out from my browser history, or Google docs edit history, or something.

      Do you have a nonbillable code to input time for those tasks? It might make you feel better about how much you’re getting done.

      Nobody expects 100% billable hours.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I’ve written about this before. Oh, it is exhausting. I have a customer service job where they track and monitor all of our phone calls. If you are scheduled to be on the phones, you are expected to be on the phones 100% of the time, which is completely unrealistic because the reality is that after most phone calls you need to spend at least a couple of minutes after the call making a record of the call for the client’s record. I find I kind of need a couple of minutes to process the call and think to myself, “Just what the hell happened during this call?”

      My employer unrealistically believes that all such notes should be made while the client is still on the phone. “Oh, you can put them on hold while you do it.” But the phone system is garbage and the odds are they’ll probably be disconnected if you do. We are assigned 18 minutes a day for timekeeping, but the reality of the situation is that we use those minutes making notes from when we are assigned to phone time, or filling out mandatory “dropped call” forms (which we are required to fill out when a call ends and we can’t tell if they hung up on us or if it was actually disconnected because of the garbage phone system. And we have to fill those out for call we answer where no one is on the line.)

      On top of this our timekeeping system only allows us to break up time in 6 minute segments (6 minutes = 0.1 hours), except when it doesn’t. Sometimes it won’t accept 0.2 and you have to put in 0.3. It would just be so much easier if we could put in the actual number of minutes or go to 2 decimal places. (0.25 hours) And it is just a time-wasting PITA.

  59. Lora*

    Don’t know about your state, but mine doesn’t pay unemployment if you refuse to comply with safety requirements or local and federal laws. They have no sense of humor about that sort of thing whatsoever.
    There are many many pilot programs for electronic records, but many many MANY employers already do this when we verify that people can lift 50 pounds to work in a warehouse, need whatever type of disability accommodations, are physically fit to work in hazardous areas or wear a respirator or whatever. Employers who offer group life insurance also do these type of verifications. There’s tons of precedent for enforcing industrial hygiene, this is not different.
    If card was damaged or lost, state health agencies are also keeping records. CVS and Walgreens, who did many vaccinations, have electronic versions with QR codes on them.
    I think you may be catastrophizing the actual costs. If you have at least 500 employees, hiring a part time industrial hygiene consultant and part time nurse to do this stuff is well under $1mio.

    Heard a lot of this type of worry early in the pandemic from people working for companies that were 100% office work – a LOT of worry, including on this site, “how do we get people to wear masks if they never did before? they’re itchy / hot / annoying! how do we get people to keep a distance? how do we improve our ventilation?” like these are all totally brand new things that never existed in the universe before 2020 – there is TONS of this type of stuff in heavy manufacturing, all the time, and we have methods for dealing with it and they do in fact work. We have industrial hygienists and occupational medicine contract support services, they don’t break the bank, they are not a gazillion dollars per company, companies don’t go out of business due to occupational health spending (they do go out of business from lawsuits from people who get injured/sick at work). Very few people quit their jobs because they don’t want to wear a hard hat and safety shoes on site, no matter how much they complain about it – they just do it, they grumble, and then they get over it. A ton of people, including on AAM, who didn’t understand how serious Covid really was, thought it was very cruel and unusual punishment in April-May 2020 to tell an employee who violates safety rules, “you’re fired, get your crap and get out,” though we routinely do this in heavy manufacturing and construction type jobs and miraculously the company survives.

    It’s not actually a serious risk – I think it’s a risk that many people in jobs that didn’t previously consider EHS are unfamiliar with. And since they’re not familiar with it personally, they catastrophize it into this big monster of a thing, instead of doing the due diligence to find out how these type of things are normally handled by companies who deal with them every day.

  60. Trivia Newton-John*

    2 interesting things:

    First Interesting Thing: I mentioned I had some reservations about a 2nd interview last week. But, I asked a lot of clarifying questions to the head of the law firm and during one of his answers he may have realized that this role is too much for one person. That was certainly my concern and I spoke to others I know in the legal field (including my old Office Administrator) outlining *all* the things they expected a person to accomplish within the first 90 days. Old OA is the HR director at a Biglaw firm now and she said “Are they paying you $300K a year? It’s not that you couldn’t DO all of this – you can, but you would be scrambling 12 hours a day and wind up in the hospital in 6 months. They need someone to handle the external part and a different person to handle the internal part.” I withdrew from consideration with the recruiter who never even asked why, just said “Okay, I’ll tell them.”
    This was not the right fit for me (and I honestly worry about whoever does take this role on) and hopefully I will find the right fit soon.

    Second Interesting Thing: my firm’s home office stated (in writing) a few months ago that ALL our offices are expected to go back 5x a week starting the day after Labor Day. Last week, I had to speak to a few different staff members in a couple of other different branches about work stuff and during converstation, I asked if they were ready to be back 5x a week (including in our home office) and they were all “No. We’re only going in 3x a week.” So I called a supervisor in my home office and said that I had heard a rumor, what was their dept doing – she said it was up to the section head/supervisor. I immediately contacted my supervisor and my section head who’ve been told “5x a week, no one else is complaining, get in line” repeatedly – my section head emailed the head of our firm stating what he had heard (from me/others and also from a partner in a different office). Head Guy *called* our Section Head on Tuesday and said “Unofficially you can still go in 3x a week only.” Literally zero of the attorneys have been in at all except for a couple hours yesterday. Good thing I heard otherwise, or we’d (staff) have to go in 5x a week. I think it’s shady.

    1. ferrina*

      Glad you withdrew from that job prospect- it sounded really worrisome!

      Wow, I’m glad you took steps on the 3x per week! That’s a lot of running around, but I’m really glad that you found out and pushed the right people to action! It might be shady- I don’t like that you can “unofficially” go in 3x per week. But a lot of offices are struggling with what to do with their wfh protocol. It’s a balance between what they want, what is safe, and what workers are willing to do.

  61. Markus*

    I’m hiring for the first time and I am finding it overwhelming. I get SO MANY candidate inquiries that it’s hard to keep up.

    **How do you balance a good candidate process with the realities of too much on your plate?**

    I didn’t even post it on job sites, just shared it with my LinkedIn network.

    1. ferrina*

      At some points I ended up looking at resumes after work. It was the only time I could find a quiet moment.

      Setting clear standards for what you need is also really helpful. It makes it go faster and helps reduce unconscious bias.
      I also didn’t look at resumes as they come in. I would look at all of the new resumes together at the end of the day. Once you have a certain number to move forward with, you can pause looking at resumes unless you need to broaden your pool.

      1. Markus*

        Thank you! I agree, looking at them as they come in is probably what’s causing me an overload. Thank you!

  62. AnonForThis*

    How do you handle sick leave requests? I got sick one night but didn’t request time off right away because I was hoping I would feel better by morning (wishful thinking). I got much worse and ended up requesting leave the next morning, over an hour after I would usually have logged in. We’re a remote workplace with flexible start times and my boss hasn’t said anything other than “feel better soon, let accounting know so they can deduct from your leave balance” but I was reflecting on it and wondering if it was unprofessional of me to request leave at the last minute and after I was already supposed to have started working that morning. For what it’s worth, I didn’t have any meetings and we’re in a slow period right now so there aren’t any urgent projects. Should I address this now/ do things differently next time?

    1. Irish girl*

      I think you were fine. Just because you were sick at night didnt mean you wouldnt feel better in the morning. The only time i called out sick the night before was when I was diagnosed with a concussion on a Sunday cause clearly that was going to be a multiple day issue and not a sleep on it and get better. I would assume if your manager had a problem they would have said something as there have been horrible bosses talked about on this site that would have wanted you to call out the night before or even 2 days before.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I think it’s important to report it before your shift starts, not after, though that’s complicated with a flexible start time. If you’re almost always in at the same time, then saying something before that time still makes sense to me, though.

      If someone knows in the evening that they may not be in in the morning, I really appreciate the head’s up. If they show up, great! However, I can start planning for their absence if they are scheduled for a task that needs coverage, etc.

    3. PollyQ*

      That seems like an entirely normal use of sick time. Ideally, you might have called in when you first woke up, but this is ok too, and your boss doesn’t seem to have any issues. It also doesn’t sound like you have any “coverage” responsibilities, so it isn’t even particularly impacting anyone. You’re fine!

    4. RagingADHD*

      Whenever that happened to me, I just told the truth: Sorry for the late notice, I thought I might be okay to start late, but no. So I need the day.

      It’s a judgment call. You’re fine.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You’re fine.
      Think of a car accident or other (fate forbid) unforeseen. You would not call up the night before and say, “I am going to have a car accident tomorrow so I won’t be in!”. It’s okay to call the day-of, it happens all the time.

    6. AnonForThis*

      Thanks everyone! This was really reassuring. I don’t have any coverage responsibilities – my role is super individualized. And I needed that sick day. Glad it seems like I didn’t screw anything up :)

  63. first time commenter*

    A team mate just yelled at me to “shut the hell up” on a team call. Boss was on the call and said nothing. I’m not sure how to handle this…

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s rarely ever appropriate to say that to a colleague, but without context it’s hard to say. Were you arguing? Having a heated discussion?

      You can always pull your boss aside privately and say that outburst made you uncomfortable and you felt it was uncalled for. I wouldn’t approach the co-worker myself.

    2. quill*

      I cannot off the top of my head think of a situation where that would be appropriate or professional. I’d mention it to your boss, who may have been muted or just frozen with WTF.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “I don’t speak to people that way because I don’t expect to be spoken to that way.”

      If the boss won’t say something, then seriously consider just saying it yourself. It can be a wake up call for the boss.

    5. Fran Fine*

      Omg! Talk to your boss and ask if she heard what was said to you and how she plans to address that incredibly unprofessional behavior. Is it possible your boss was on the call, but was distracted by something else/away from her desk when the outburst occurred? This is so out of order…

    6. Hallorie*

      Are you 100% positive that the coworker was directing it at you and not something in their environment? Either way, Boss needs to talk to coworker about appropriate work behavior and/or call expectations. If the coworker was directing it at you and Boss doesn’t care to do anything, I’d go to HR. I went to HR for a coworker screaming the F word at me and saying I was stupid and didn’t know how to do my job (…for saying “no” to his request to violate federal patient health information privacy laws). If there is no HR, I’d start looking for another job (I’m not saying you should but that’s how I respond when an employer doesn’t care about work environment and norms, for better or for worse).

      (Anecdotally, I was on a small Zoom call before a meeting officially started and forgot my camera was on while I was reading an email about something completely unrelated. I rolled my eyes, made an exasperated face, and whispered “are you kidding me?!” while a coworker was talking. I genuinely forgot people could see me, since, uh, I could not see them at that moment in time and I was comfortable in my home. However, I immediately acknowledged it and apologized. After that, back when my org was still allowing Zoom, I left my mic off unless I was talking, and I left my video off until it absolutely needed to be on.)

  64. Darwin*

    Hi! So this isn’t a question exactly, just something I need to share with internet strangers because I can’t share with people I know because of the level of humiliation it involves.
    This week I was woken up by a call from my manager asking where I was—our company meeting (virtual) had started. (I had managed to sleep through my alarms and was an hour late logging on.)
    In a panic I jump out of bed, rush to my computer, and am pounding keys to try to get my computer and then zoom up and running as fast as possible. I am so stressed about this that I manage to not notice that, for the first time EVER my camera is on. And I am naked.
    I drop to the floor PRAYING that my entire company has not seen me fully naked and spend what feels like hours (was like 30 seconds crawling on the floor with just my head slightly above my desk trying to figure out how to turn off a camera that I have never turned on.
    A coworker did confirm that she watched it all and was laughing, but that nothing was shown that couldn’t be excused by claiming that I was wearing a tube top….still don’t know if that helps or not.
    Sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my (currently fully covered!) chest.

      1. Darwin*

        As I haven’t been fired (yet?) I am leaning towards it being hilarious as well but omg. I have had literal nightmares about going to school/work naked and then it happened for real.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          For me it’s the vision of you leaping to the floor and then peering over your desk that’s really cinching it for me hahaha

    4. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

      Oh Nooooooooooooooo

      There are some posts here from earlier in the Covid Era about this happening to many people, if that helps.

    6. OtterB*

      As long as you’re not in trouble over this, and it sounds like you’re not, then I’d say let it go as much as you can. It will be funny to you too at some point, but you might as well not try to rush that point.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I have a piece of tape over my camera because I live in terror of this happening to me.

      I see celebrities wearing skin colored clothing- your coworker has shown you a path out of this one.

  65. Goose*

    Does anyone else prefer chaos mode at work more than regular days? Maybe I don’t know what to do, but running from one (non-emergent) thing to another is more fulfilling than sitting at my desk doing “work”.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I do! Chaos days go by faster, even if they are longer sometimes. It’s nice to know exactly what to be doing in each moment rather than choosing from a long list of things that need to be done with varying, but similar priorities.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        This is me too! This week has been a busy week full of chaos, and I’m enjoying it a lot more than the summer slump. I will be sleeping more this weekend though.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Honestly yes. There’s a kind of thrill and adrenaline involved in chaos days that I enjoy, and it’s nice to look up and see half the day vanish in a flash instead of, as you say, “work.”

      I prefer accidentally overshooting lunch to counting down the minutes to it.

    4. Paris Geller*

      I don’t “enjoy” them in the moment but I get satisfaction at the end of the day if I feel I’ve handled the chaos well.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I wouldn’t want them all the time, every day, but I wouldn’t want zero of them either.

      Being too busy is always better to me than being bored.

    6. EvilQueenRegina*

      My job has specific quiet times (school holidays) and busy times (school terms). I much prefer the chaos mode of the busy times.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I thought I did. Until I realized that it was a source of fake energy- not real energy. And that fake energy is what can really burn us right out. Real energy comes from two sources, food and sleep. Like a caffeine high, once we come down from the crisis/chaos we can be more tired than when we started. It’s not a long term plan. But I do know that some bosses create one crisis after another to motivate people to work harder.

    9. Flower necklace*

      I’m a teacher. Every day is a chaos day :)

      I actually hate working from my classroom because time drags for me. I’d much rather be around other people, even though it means I don’t get as much done during the school day. There is always an interesting conversation happening in the planning room.

      1. Flower necklace*

        *working from my classroom during planning (because I’m certainly never alone or bored when I’m teaching)

    10. Not how I thought that'd go*

      I’m in the middle of switching departments and I feel absolutely OUT of my depth in the new area, but for all the stress, I love it. When I’m in my old department, just waiting for work to do, I keep thinking of how I’d rather be in the new department. The joke I made to a co-worker is that I don’t feel like I got pushed into the deep end with the sharks, I feel like the sharks are ABOVE me. I’m not treading water, I’m almost next to the fish that have NEVER seen light before. Yet, when things start to click together and I start to feel like I could do new department area (until the next cliff hanger), it’s totally awesome.

    11. Liz*

      Yes, absolutely! In my first job, I was renowned for being the one who was fantastic in a crisis but terrible at keeping on top of the boring, daily stuff. I think some of it might be neurological – I have asked my GP to refer me for assessment for ADHD and autism – but I usually need something or someone demanding my attention with some degree of urgency or my brain shuts down.

    12. allathian*

      Not me. I used to do it, but after my near-burnout a couple years ago, my resilience’s never completely recovered. I do enjoy the adrenaline highs, but after a day or two of chaos mode, I need two days off to recover.

  66. justdolls*

    I don’t know a better place to throw this, though maybe someone can direct me.
    Question as a customer of a small business.

    I’ve been in an import hobby for a long time, it’s a really small hobby in which there’s maybe a half a dozen shops that people use in the US total, and most work as preorder dealers, though many of us ordering direct (overseas) when we make purchases. This concerns the newest of these dealers, they’ve been open maybe 4-5 years (where others have been around 15+) and reportedly has ONE employee and some occasional volunteers by their own admission.

    There’s a lot of shipping delays in import hobbies right now, most of us know and accept this. This dealer is apparently at the end of their rope for dealing with cranky customers and with one particularly bad one recently: they decided the best idea was to go to their Facebook page and post all of their interactions with the customer and the customer’s order details. They blacked out payment info, street address, and phone, but they’ve disclosed the person’s username (again, small hobby, easy for a dealer to match a username to an order) as well as their full real name (and the user has their city/state listed), email, and other details.
    A bunch of us feel this is close to doxxing and goes against their own stated Privacy Policy as well as Facebook’s, but are afraid to call them out since they’re going on the “any criticism we’ll take action against” warpath and don’t want to have our own info dropped in front of the hobby. This isn’t the first time they’ve made really legally questionable choices.

    So most of us really feel for them and dealing with nasty customers, but we’re also really really uncomfortable with their “we need to name and shame the bad eggs in the hobby” approach that they’ve taken this last six months. Many of us have open preorders and won’t be ordering again from them, but we also just aren’t sure what to do about a business that has our addresses and such from ordering and has decided they’ll be like this.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Strength in numbers? If you all contact them and say “hey, this isn’t actually ok” that might work.

      Otherwise, don’t use them again. You don’t need to say anything.

      1. justdolls*

        Yeah, if we can get the post reported more we will. Otherwise yep, people I know are just not going to order again.

    2. Mental Lentil*

      Just let it go.

      If Fakebook wants to handle it, they will. If Cranky Customer wants to complain, that’s on them. (Presumably they know about this.)

      Your current plan is the best one—finish out your open orders and then take your business elsewhere.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree. If you feel unsafe, definitely take the option that makes you safe. Ghosting is definitely the safest way to go.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Close to doxxing? They posted their username and their real name. How much closer do they need to get? This is legitimately doxxing and shouldn’t be tolerated. But yeah, now that you know what they’ll do, I definitely wouldn’t publicly “name and shame.” Stop placing orders, and make it known (anonymously) that the company cannot be trusted.

      1. justdolls*

        We weren’t sure if leaving the street addressed covered still would be doxxing or not, but it’s terrible either way.
        My small group isn’t ordering anymore through them.

    4. Dark Macadamia*

      I wouldn’t say anything, but report all of their posts to Facebook and encourage others to do the same. Facebook is notoriously awful about this stuff but they’re more likely to take action with mass-reporting.

      1. justdolls*

        Thanks, we’re trying to get enough reports in, the shop somehow has spawned a sort of defense group of fans from all of this as well, so no one wants to publicly say much right now.

  67. Mannheim Steamroller*

    The dreaded return-to-office is coming next week. Everybody is divided into two groups: Group A (which includes me) will report on Mondays, Tuesdays, and alternate Fridays. Group B will report on Wednesdays, Thursdays, and the remaining Fridays.

    The problem: Even though I’m fully vaccinated, I’m still very worried. My commute is just over an hour and includes a bus and two trains. I have no idea who is and isn’t vaccinated. At the office, unvaccinated employees are “supposed” to be tested regularly, but the testing is purely on the “honor” system and will not be enforced. I don’t want to risk exposing my wife or my nieces (who are not yet eligible to be vaccinated) to the coronavirus.

    My solution for now is to be “on vacation” for my office days until I can consult with my primary doctor, and then follow her advice going forward.

    1. ferrina*

      That sucks so much. Your solution sounds really good. I’d also recommend looking up vaccination rates in your region and see if your doctor has any insight in to outbreaks (where they tend to be occuring). Definitely double mask and use sanitizer.
      I’ve also talked to my team about staying home with any respiratory virus. If you’ve got a cough, you need to stay home. Obviously you need to test negative before you even think about coming in to the office, but I also encourage anyone with a cold to stay home. That way they don’t pass the cold on to their colleagues or- worst case scenario- someone gets Covid but doesn’t get tested because “oh, it’s just that cold that’s going around”

  68. overslept*

    Has anyone overslept and missed a meeting, job interview, or something else? Please share your stories here so I can feel a little better about myself.

    I use Alexa for my alarm. I guess it wasn’t loud enough for me this morning. I’m usually quite a light sleeper but not this morning. I missed an 8:30 meeting that I myself scheduled for help with my project. It was with 2 people I don’t know that well, and my teammate. But my teammate missed the meeting too, thinking I’d cover it. I feel so embarrassed. I think a year ago or something, I overslept and missed a status check-in with a few teammates but this is way worse. I apologized and asked to reschedule. They said fine, I eventually found a new time. But I’m so embarrassed.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      My take on this is that when your body decides it needs more rest, it’s going to get it. So I get that people occasionally oversleep. It’s a thing that happens to all of us from time to time.

      If you did it all the time, I would be miffed, but as a one-off, I wouldn’t be bothered.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        I agree with this take. If you’re normally on top of things, then I’d easily dismiss this with a mental “Hey, we’re all human and things happen.” As long as you apologized and offered to reschedule, I wouldn’t think much more about it. I totally get why you’re embarrassed, but try to give yourself some grace too!

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      If it makes you feel better I missed a meeting yesterday because I was so engrossed in the comment thread about scheduling meetings…

    3. duck*

      Before smartphones automatically told us the time I missed up daylight savings twice. Once I was an hour early to a job, another time an hour late.

      1. LCH*

        I was once not fully prepared for a phone interview because I miscalculated time zone changes. I sounded really flustered and obviously did not give a good impression. I now use the world time clock online to calculate just to be sure. I also don’t set meetings first thing Monday or any time before 10am if I can help it to be safe.

      2. EvilQueenRegina*

        My dad once had a pupil show up an hour late to class because her family somehow thought the clocks changed a couple of weeks earlier than they actually did (this was in the UK, where that happens a few weeks later than the US so I wonder now if this was because somehow they had the US date?)

        It was years after Dad told me that story that I wondered how it had taken them so long to twig, given that the clocks usually change on the Saturday night/stupid o’clock Sunday morning, and it was the Monday when she was an hour late for school. This was the 1990s, so before smartphones would have told them the time, but even so I would have thought there would have been opportunities on the Sunday to notice.

    5. BayCay*

      I was late to a Zoom interview one time because I set my alarm for a PM instead of AM. (forehead slap) I was only a few minutes late and tried to explain but I still didn’t get the job. Oh well!

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        I once saved my relatives from missing an early flight because they had set the alarm on the iPad for 3.30am…and then MUTED the iPad, thinking that would stop things like notifications from Facebook messages coming through at odd hours (they have contacts in lots of different time zones, so that’s something quite likely to happen), and didn’t take into account that they had also muted the alarm. I still wonder if they would have made that flight had I not been there to wake them up.

    6. ObserverCN*

      In college, I once overslept and almost missed one of my final exams.
      At my first job after college, I had to get up ridiculously early (like 3:30 am) and one day I overslept and missed about a half-day of work. Thankfully my boss had a good sense of humor about it.

    7. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

      My work has a morning scrum first thing every day. Just last week I overslept for no good reason at all, and woke up to my roommate calling to me, “are you working today?” Boss was Unimpressed.

    8. OtterB*

      I agree that if it’s rare, then it’s a “things happen” and you apologize and move on. You don’t want it to become routine but it doesn’t sound like that’s a risk. If you have a meeting scheduled you might set a second, different alarm about 10 minutes after the first one.

      I’ve done the trick of setting the alarm for PM instead of AM.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My alarm clock has dual alarms. If I am tired or have something very important I will set both alarms to be sure I am up and on track.

        That said I have missed meetings with organizations I belong to because I overslept my nap. I let it scare me into being more vigilant. I apologize to the group, no one cares, and life goes on.

    9. GoryDetails*

      In my first summer job after high school, I was working on the housekeeping team at a dude ranch outside of Yellowstone Park. The workers had, effectively, bunk houses – big rooms full of bunk beds – to stay in, and on my first morning I was shaken awake by my manager, wondering why I wasn’t at work; I hadn’t realized that my start-time was quite so early… It was very embarrassing indeed, but at least by starting out on the wrong foot I made everything else I did look a lot better by contrast!

  69. SpartanFan*

    Quick rant. I am getting more and more spam emails where people send an email referencing a faked email that they “sent” two days ago or last week to imply that I am ignoring their first email. This makes me even less willing to read their sales pitch.

    1. Elle Woods*

      It’s irritating that some people think it’s the way to get your attention. It gets mine, but not in a “I want to do business with you” kind of way.

    2. Girasol*

      That’s like all the spam callers who start with “You should have received something in the mail…” or “This is your LAST notification…” when they’d never made any contact before. Do you suppose they’re counting on our cultural “fear of missing out?”

  70. Looking for Noise*

    How do I get a team to speak up more? I am not the manager of this team, but I used to a be a manager and have never worked on a team so reluctant to share any of the views or concerns. The team lead is extremely collaborative, very empathetic, and genuinely takes all concerns and comments seriously. I’ve never worked with someone who made me feel so heard and respected, and there’s a long history of me disagreeing with him in front of the team and everything going very smooth and congenially. But almost no one will speak up, either in a meeting or privately. (The lead is not anyone’s manager, but they also aren’t saying anything to their managers during weekly one-on-ones).

    This came to a head recently when the team lead made a workflow suggestion and asked the team what they thought. No one besides me said anything, and since I wasn’t really going to be affected by the change I just raised one of my concerns to break the ice, but the rest of the team just nodded along like they were fine. Turns out they absolutely hated the change but stayed silent every time that someone checked in with them. The lead reversed course as soon as I alerted him that it was going over poorly (the other flag raiser came from someone who isn’t even on our team!). But we’re all stuck on how no one was willing to give anything other positive responses!

    This is a small, growing company. Most of the silent people are newer (<1yr, myself included), and there is a culture of openness and collaboration with most people not even knowing the titles of other people. I regularly tell pretty much everyone "in charge" when they are wrong – both privately and publicly – and the response is always very collaborative and focused on finding the best solution. We really can't afford to have a team of yes-men because we're supposed to be charged with working independently and finding the correct solutions to problems. How do we get people to disagree more or speak their mind??

    1. PollyQ*

      There’s probably not that much you can do, given that it’s not your team. It’s possible that using language like, “It would really be helpful to bring up any issues early on so they can be addressed and we don’t go down a path where we’re wasting time and effort” might help.

      Is it possible you’re a little too vigorous in telling other people they’re wrong? You see it as raising issues to superiors, but that team may just see it as you being critical in general and is perhaps afraid that they’ll come in for the same treatment if they speak up. But I think ultimately, this is something their actual manager is going to need to address.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Some people are reluctant to speak up at meetings but will provide anonymous feedback (if it’s truly anonymous). Could you set up an anonymous virtual Dropbox for people to submit questions or feedback to the team lead? It’s not as good as a dialogue but it might break some ice.

      Another thing to consider is having your team lead do 1:1s with the team if he doesn’t already. It’s usually easier to get feedback in sessions like those. Alternatively, you can also have team meetings without your team lead and see if people are more receptive to speaking their mind there. You could pass on a “meeting consensus” to the team lead afterwards without naming names so they can get an idea of how the team is feeling without people being called out specifically.

      But ultimately, some people just don’t like speaking up or have trouble getting past toxic workplace habits that have taught them not to speak up. It might just take time and patience. It sounds like you’re a great asset to both your team and your team lead though!

    3. ferrina*

      Have you tried changing the question? Not “What do you think of this idea?”, but directly ask “What can go wrong by doing this?” Explain that you’ve thought of a few downsides, but you want to hear from the group to make sure that all the bases are covered. Sometimes directly soliciting negative feedback is what is needed to break the ice.

      That said…you aren’t the manager or lead. This isn’t your responsibility to make the team speak up more. The best thing you can do is make sure that is a safe space by genuinely listening, being quick to provide praise and support, and sharing your experiences as appropriate. You can also defer to other’s expertise to ensure that you are sharing the floor “I’m new to this, but I wonder if there wouldn’t be an issue with getting the wombat to wear the bolero…Pinky, you know a lot more about wombats than I do. What do you think?”

      1. Looking for Noise*

        I probably should have clarified that both the lead and the managers have come to me for help or ideas because they are out of ideas, I have more management experience than both of them, and the team is pretty comfortable around me / willing to tell me their concerns. Except for the 2weeks that I had to run meetings when both the lead and manager were out of town – suddenly no one would tell me what they thought.

    4. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I think that since most people are so new they are still not yet comfortable speaking up. They may feel that it is not safe or that they don’t know enough or are too “low ranking” to speak up. In the past, their ideas may have been ignored so they may not see any advantage to speaking up. It may just take some time.

    5. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

      Make sure they know it’s safe to do so. At my current job I waited 6 months before evincing an opinion on anything down to lunch delivery, because at my previous job they had been very clear that if they wanted my opinion they would tell me what it was.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      People who have been there less than one year probably are not going to speak up.

      I really hate saying this but maybe if you did not speak that would force one of them to speak? I have tried that in groups with some luck.
      The lead could ask people by name if they have thoughts or concerns. “Bob do you have any thoughts here on this idea?”

      It may come down to the lead explaining to them that they are expected to speak up in meetings as opposed to telling each other later on. But don’t say it in a scolding manner- say it in an explanatory or teaching manner. “This is what we do here folks….” There is nothing wrong with saying what you have here. “We really can’t afford to have a team of yes-men because we’re supposed to be charged with working independently and finding the correct solutions to problems.”

      ” How do we get people to disagree more or speak their mind??” Talk about what a constructive disagreement looks like- it’s based in facts, it’s based on experiences, it has nothing to do with anyone as a person.

      My husband was fond of saying in order to have a discussion some ground work must be laid. Make sure they understand the frame work for the meeting- that it is a discussion and it is part of their jobs to contribute where they can to the subjects being covered.

      1. linger*

        “it’s based on experiences” may well be a large part of the problem when almost everyone on the team is fairly inexperienced.

  71. Coffee au Lait*

    A colleague was assigned to help with a project, and…it didn’t go well. I had a chat with my boss, who then had a chat with their boss. Today I was told that my colleague was being pulled off the project and a second colleague was replacing her.

    I have mixed feelings. Relief that I no longer need to monitor their work. Relief that Colleague 2 is competent and doesn’t need a lot of handholding. Sadness that Colleague 1 wasn’t able to get it together and work with me.

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      I feel you on this one. Similar scenario, but I didn’t have to actually work with the person that was going to be assigned to help, both because it worked out with someone else being available and because I pushed back….HARD. The less desirable candidate is actually a great friend and good employee, but just not suited for the assignment at all, which is a departure from what we typically do, and selecting them would have made my life 10x harder. But I still felt terrible having that conversation with my boss.

  72. Eldritch Office Worker*

    I think I commited a social faux pas the other day. A manager blew up at big boss in a meeting. In the debrief, I defended big boss. I know *my* manager agrees with me (and I meant what I said) but I don’t think others on my level appreciated it. Should I not have?

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong! You meant what you said. As long as you disagreed politely and respectfully, disagreeing with others at your level is not inherently a faux pas. It might be worth it to find out more about your colleagues’ concerns though. Maybe there’s a disparity you’re not aware of.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Very good point! I was sort of making the point that I understood there was a lot of history that colored things but the item they were upset about wasn’t actually like…egregious. Not that patterns don’t matter but I didn’t think it was approached or discussed in a helpful manner (and my job has a lot to do with making things run smoothly). But honestly I might have learned more by just letting them vent.

        1. Anonymous Koala*

          In that case I think it depends on context. In an internal meeting, I would probably let people vent, especially if the pattern they’re complaining about is a legitimate concern (even though the incident might not be significant). But if you had external stakeholders, very junior people who aren’t directly affected by the issue, or clients present, I would have shut down the venting quickly too.

    2. ferrina*

      This really depends on the politics. What is the big boss usually like? What is the manager usually like? What alliances are in play? Could you have kept quiet, and what would the impact be of that? What kind of relationships do you need with others on your level?

      There’s no hard and fast rule here. This is all situational, especially since you say in your reply to Anonymous Koala that there was history. The details make the difference here, and the results can be more important that the action.

  73. quill*

    Sort of a process question, since I’ve had to do it quite frequently (like, about once a week?) in the last month: are there bad optics to having to make phone calls to obtain appointments literally all the time during lunch? If I’m going to have to call multiple people I’ll step outside. But usually I don’t get the appointment maker, they call back when I’m at my desk and I have to take it because otherwise we’ll be playing phone tag all week.

    Still, I can’t help but wonder if people are judging my professionalism after I’ve had to confirm appointments and deliveries so often.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      As long as it doesn’t interfere with your work I wouldn’t worry too much about it, especially if these are just short calls to confirm appointments.

      This is one reason I love work from home, though. So many of these tiny anxieties about perceived professionalism disappear.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      Nah…as long as you aren’t discussing any health related details of the TMI variety (i.e. colonoscopy. pap smear, etc.) and you are keeping it to strictly “I need to schedule an appt for X with Dr. Y in two weeks” you’re good. Everyone knows that most doctor’s offices and other businesses are only open during regular office hours and a brief call isn’t a big deal. I have one co-worker that travels internationally several times a year. He will chat with various hotels, resorts, tour companies, etc. for extended periods, all while working….I hear him typing. He’s often calling other parts of the world and other time zones. No one cares.

    5. LCH*

      even in a cubicle situation, I’ve never paid attention to someone else’s call (unless they are terribly loud, then I can’t avoid it). so I doubt your officemates care. they shouldn’t care.

    6. RagingADHD*

      This is what lunch break is for. Unless you are being loud, sharing TMI, or having massive packages delivered to the office, I can’t imagine what is unproffessional about it.

  74. DEI*

    The firm I work for hired a DEI consultant! The consultant is meeting with “randomly selected” staff to “understand the staff’s experience” related to DEI. I was randomly selected. Has anyone else gone through such a process? Any tips/thoughts on what to expect? Thank you! FWIW, the firm is located in a very diverse, liberal, major US city. The firm itself is diverse-ish and liberal.

    1. OtterB*

      If the firm seems to be doing this in good faith (and it sounds like they are) and the consultant seems good, then I would guess that you’ll be asked about any DEI-related issues you may have experienced or observed, and should answer honestly. Maybe ask about anything you think the firm should do differently.

      We have not done this at work, but a hobby friend who is a DEI consultant is conducting a process for our hobby group. She met first (by zoom) with the leadership to ask why now and what we wanted to get out of the process. We then skipped to group discussions, but in your situation it would make sense to me to have some conversations with staff to get the lay of the land. It’s trying to identify situations where the management says everything is fine when it’s not, or has a gut feeling something is wrong but can’t pinpoint what.

      1. retired*

        I’m not in a protected group (except old cranky women), but I have worked a lot with Tribes and advocate for them when I can, including at work. I was asked to join a new diversity group but declined. I made it clear that I’m an ally. I was afraid they would use my presence not continue not talking to the local Tribe. They may find allies when interviewing people and learn good information.

  75. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

    Today I went to Home Goods and bought some Halloween things for my work desk. I got my first ever work bonus (that wasn’t Christmas) so I wanted to celebrate a bit. Also, I have spent the previous 17 years working for S Baptist church offices. Decorating for Halloween…. not an option. I’ve worked here for two years and beginning my third, and this is the first time I have done this. I’m pleased but need a few more things. I love Hween!!!

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Yay!!! I love Halloween too! What is it like working for S Baptists? Is it like having any other job?

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

        I love Halloween stuff that is pretty and sparkly. Not a fan of gore.

        Working for SB church office is mostly like any other admin. assistant work, but with prayer. Biggest difference is you have to be careful what you say. Certain tv shows or movies, no go. No cursing, of course. On the plus side, food is a constant, especially if it’s attached to a school. Which the one in NC was.

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

        They have very nice things. I like Spirit Halloween too but they tend to be heavy on gross.

        1. Fran Fine*

          Which is why I love them, lol.

          Have fun decorating!!! I’m beginning to decorate my “office” (basically, my home) this weekend in a Victorian gothic horror theme – it’s gonna be awesome :)

    3. Mental Lentil*

      I’m so happy for you! I remember what a struggle you had, and am so happy that things are working out for you!

      Happy Halloween!

  76. Leg Bouncer Extrordinaire*

    So I have ADHD and often bounce my leg to help me concentrate. My coworker pointed out that she can feel the vibrations and it’s a bit distracting to her. Does anyone have any tips for how to minimize vibrations on the floor from leg bouncing? I’m in an office environment with a carpet covering the floor. We have the plastic mats for our chairs but that doesn’t seem to help with the vibrations.

    (She didn’t demand for me to change, she just pointed out how the leg bouncing affects her. I am taking the initiative to do this on my own.)

    1. ferrina*

      I sometimes switch to fingertapping if there’s a quiet way to do that.
      You could also try crossing your legs and bouncing the raised leg (kicking motion type thing)

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      I’m leg bouncer too! I have a couple of spiky balls (I think they’re intended for foot cramps) that I roll under my feet to get the fidgety-ness out. It works best with socked feet if your workplace is okay with that. Otherwise maybe a finger fidget spinner? They make some that are pretty silent.

    3. Mr. Cajun2core*

      What about some sort of padding like what is used in a gym or maybe something like a padded matt of some sort that people who stand for quite a while use. You can cut one down to size if needed.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      It would not be leg bouncing, but how about a foot massage roller? Would provide stimulation without the vibration.

    5. Red*

      You need a Pig Pad! Their a brand of mats that are really good at absorbing welll everything, but they have some thick ones that are designed to absorb and mute impacts, like leg bouncing!

    6. LC*

      If it’s something you don’t notice unless it’s pointed out, (rather than something you are aware of in the moment) you can let her know to feel free to quietly point it out to you whenever you start doing it. Especially since it doesn’t seem to be driving her bonkers yet, this could help you be more aware of it and switch the habit before it gets to BEC status. Either way, being aware of it gives you space to try and consciously switch to something else.

      I twirl my hair and my ring, I kind of tap my fingers against each other or my other hand or my leg or something so it doesn’t bother people as much. Or tap my tongue against my teeth (keeping my mouth closed obviously, and wow these all feel way stranger typed out than they actually are). Or tap a pen against my hand so it doesn’t make noise, and if you do it while not leaning on the desk or something, there won’t be any vibrations to travel. Wriggling/tapping toes is a good one, it can have a similar bouncy feel, but it’s not really something that anyone else will notice since it is confined to your shoe. For times when you’re chatting or thinking but not actively typing/writing/whatever, even just standing for a minute or two can make a big difference.

      What it comes down to is that a) we have that energy and b) it needs to go somewhere. So reframing it as looking for a way to redirect the energy rather than preventing it from coming out makes a big difference for me.

      1. pancakes*

        I don’t know about all this. I always notice foot-tapping and leg-bouncing, and find both annoyingly distracting. Even if there’s no noise, frantic movement in my peripheral vision is something I can’t help but notice, and it often makes it harder for me to concentrate. I also don’t agree that it’s fair to ask a coworker to take charge of monitoring this sort of thing (“quietly point it out to you”). Self-awareness is a much better option. I think the people suggesting foot rollers have the right idea here – that is much more discreet movement, and much less distracting for others.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I don’t know how stretch bands would work on an office chair with wheels, but schools will put them on the four-legged chairs for bouncy kids to bounce their legs on the elastic. Take a look at your chair and see if it you could make it work.

  77. ThePear8*

    I think I asked this question before but didn’t really receive a response, so trying again! On my resume/linkedIn, how would I put the end date of a job I technically still work on an on-call/events-only basis? I work for a company that provides services at certain special events (such as concerts and comedy shows etc), but that means I only work for them when they have a special event in my area (which is not often) that I am available for, and I haven’t worked anything since pre-pandemic. Right now I have the end date listed as “present” since technically if they had another event I would work it, but I don’t know if/when that would happen so I’m thinking about changing the end date to around the last event I worked. Would that make sense to do?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yeah I think that’s fine. LinkedIn isn’t a legal document, it doesn’t have to be exact.

      I did some consulting for my organization after I left my last job, I listed that as its own position. But this seems infrequent and open ended enough that I’d just close it off.

    2. ThatGirl*

      You don’t have to put an end date; you can just indicate “occasional/on call” — which it sounds like you should, anyway, since it’s sporadic. You can’t change the order on LinkedIn, but on your resume, I’d put it under “other relevant experience” or something similar.

    3. ferrina*

      You can leave it on LinkedIn (which people tend to update sporadically anyways), but I’d call it out on the resume (especially since it’s been over a year). I’ve used “seasonally” (if it has a season) or you can add something below/around the date range that says “intermittent based on event schedule” (or something like that). Or you could add it as a bullet in your accomplishments/responsibilities (though that isn’t my first option). The important thing is just that you denote it.
      As a hiring manager, I want to make sure that I’m getting an accurate sense of your job, so if you are portraying it as your current FT/PT job and I find out you haven’t done it in over a year, I’d wonder about how accurate you are in your other communications.

  78. Oat Milk Library*

    Happy Friday!

    I currently work in a library as a Library Assistant where I do all sorts of things like photo and video editing, copywriting, program planning and execution, social media, and a bit more. I’m currently searching for fully remote work as my schedule here is not flexible whatsoever and that is something I really value.

    My question is: Is my title of Library Assistant going to immediately get my resume tossed? I feel qualified to do remote marketing and media jobs but feel like my title may scare potential employers away.

    Any advice?

    2. PollyQ*

      Use your cover letter to specifically address why you’re looking to shift career role and to call out your transferable skills.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This. The library assistant title probably will get filtered out for marketing-related jobs depending on whatever ATS systems are being used (or if an HR rep is only glancing at titles). This means your cover letter will need to be very clear about how your experience relates, and you should probably aim for marketing coordinator or assistant roles. They tend to be more entry level and maybe you’ll have more luck there.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think people don’t know what Library Assistants do and they are likely to fall into the trap of thinking library work is shushing people and shelving books (or I often get it assumed that I work with children for some reason). So, I would be careful in your cover letter to emphasize the work you did that you think most applies to the job and maybe find a way to highlight that in your resume as well. Normally, I’m not a big fan of skills sections, but this might also be a place to use them to highlight whatever programs you have extensive experience with.

  79. HappyFriday*

    Should I quit or wait to get fired?

    I joined a small smart-up this year and the company isn’t doing well. The founder is putting intense pressure on the few employees to generate sales, but it’s just not happening ($1 million in 2 months). I’m already looking to leave, but I wonder if I should stick it out as long as possible or if I should quit and then explain during my job search that I had to leave before the company wasn’t doing well? I’m asking because I have a strong suspicion there will be firings soon since the founder has been losing it in recent meetings. She has directly said to me that I’m underperforming because I haven’t contributed close to $500K in revenue per month and berating me for not doing enough. Nobody can do what she’s asking, but she doesn’t seem to think it’s unrealistic. But again, this is just my suspicion. Appreciate the advice!

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Quit. As Alison said the other day, there is no magic amount of time to stay at a job if you are this unhappy and are being treated this way. You won’t get a metal for shoveling the most amount of shit or anything. I say bail.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      If you quit, you won’t be eligible for unemployment. If money is a concern, you should stay employed as long as you can.

    3. PollyQ*

      You should start job hunting right now as hard as you can, not just because you might removed from the job, but because the company might shut down entirely. Ideally, you’ll find something quickly and resign for that. If you’re really concerned you’re going to get fired in the short term, and you can live without unemployment/severance, you might want to quit. Certainly the next job you hunt for is going to ask “Why did you leave your last job?” and many job applications ask, “Have you ever been fired?” so ideally, you wouldn’t have a firing on the record.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Having once been in this situation at a startup, I think this is the best course of action unless you feel threatened by the owner or your health is suffering. Stay calm answer that you’re doing the best you can.

        In my case the company ran out of money and I was eventually laid off and got unemployment until I found something. When I job hunted it was easy to say the startup lost funding and they had to let us go.

    4. ferrina*

      Depends on your mental health, but I vote hold on. It makes sense to be looking at another job because the company is in shaky financial straits, but quitting because your paycheck might dry up? As an interviewer I’d wonder if there’s more to the story that you’re not sharing.
      If you’re concerned about the idea of being “fired”, if they need to let people go due to financial constraints you can ask that it be categorized as a layoff (usually it would be anyways). Make sure that you are lining up people at this company who are not the founder who can vouch for your good work and be a reference.
      If you opt to leave because, well, the founder is berating you, that’s a different story. It’s fine to say “The founder had a vision for this position that was not in line with what I was hired to do, so I stepped away and have spent my time looking for a position where blah blah blah.”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you do quit/put in notice do not let her smooth talk you into changing your mind. She will probably panic because she does not expect people to quit. Don’t feed into her panic, stay your course.

  80. Tomato Frog*

    Please please share with me your one-weird-trick of making yourself get something done that you’ve been procrastinating on.

    I’m looking at a reasonably challenging and probably time-consuming task, so I need to not only start (I sort of did once) but keep going. I welcome any thoughts, but I would especially like to hear about your more idiosyncratic methods — I don’t think I’m going to Pomodoro my way through this one.

    1. The Smiling Pug*

      For me, breaking the project down into bite-size chunks and finding a way to reward myself after getting each chunk done helps. For example, I’m trying to get a sizeable personal project done, and after I get each part finished, I eat a cookie. Maybe something like that?

    2. LizB*

      Buy a small container of your favorite candy. Every time you hit a milestone on the project, you get to eat one. If you don’t finish by the deadline, you have to give the rest of the candy to someone else (and you still have to finish the project!).

    3. Anon for this*

      I’m working on a project like that now! I am taking breaks to read AAM at regular intervals- and have made progress by using this approach. My best go-to is, honestly to figure out a chore I like even less and tell myself that I am doing this project instead of that one.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I feel this so hard. I procrastinated on a project for several weeks and it has caught up with me. I set aside specific hours and told myself that I can only work on the things I have been avoiding. My problem is getting started, once I’m got over that hurdle it goes smoothly (for the most part). I don’t start first thing in the morning, because that’s not my most productive time. I get other things out of the way, and then at 10 I get started with the project. I stop at a specific time too, so I can get a break from it and do something else. Sound simple, but it’s helped. I just have to be totally focused on the project during the times I’ve scheduled it

    5. RagingADHD*

      For starting, the teick is “grease the skids.” Get everything out, open all the files, make a note of the first 3-5 steps you need to do. Not the milestones, the actual steps like “Find X’s phone number. Call X to ask these questions. Add answers to project notes.” Put the phone (or whatever you need depending on the task) right there on top.

      Then get up and walk away. Do something else for a little while. When you come back, you have it all laid out and know exactly what to do with no friction. You can just slide into it.

      For keeping going, my trick is to make the work sessions as enjoyable and comfortable as possible, even in childish ways. That might be a lovely cup of tea. It could be wearing fuzzy slippers or putting a vase of fresh flowers on my desk. It could be an awesome music playlist, or a sticker page of gold stars. Anything at all that puts a smile on my face and feels like it’s a treat to show up for.

      1. Girasol*

        Me too! If I’m really struggling, I promise myself that as soon as the files are laid out and the information looked up and the steps to approach the mess are spelled out in painfully simple detail, the next thing I will do is go get coffee and a treat from the snack machine.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Procrastination often conceals uncertainty about what *exactly* getting started actually means.

          It takes some mental effort to figure out what to do first, but we feel like this planning time doesn’t count. So we don’t devote the time, because we need to just get started already!

          And wind up spinning our wheels.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I con myself around the house here by doing ugly task and promising myself I can do a task I really want to do once the ugly task is done.
      Today I did not want to change my bedsheets. No clue why as this usually does not bother me. So I promised myself that after I changed the sheets I could go work on another thing that I really wanted to get done. Once I got that done, the next ugly task was to clean the bathroom. Once I got that done, I could do another appealing task. I went a long for a couple hours this way and got a number of things done.

    7. beach read*

      This one is weird, but when I have trouble focusing or starting a task, I pretend I am ‘training’ someone to do that task. Sort of like narrating my way through it. It helps me stay on track.

    8. Diatryma*

      “Time to be a grownup.” I tell myself that… a lot, I guess. No one else is going to do the thing. Guess it’s me. And besides, I don’t want to leave extra work for people later. I don’t want to be That Coworker, even to Future Me.

      I also really hated one change to how we did things, so after giving myself a day to be sulky about it, I grabbed the task before anyone else could and forced myself to get used to the new process.

  81. Mr. Cajun2core*

    Hopefully someone will see this and it is not too late.

    I have a BS in computer science. A job I am applying for does not even require a Bachelor’s degree. It is a customer service position. It only requires:

    “High school diploma or GED and a minimum of two (2) years of experience in the area of general office, customer service, or data entry OR completion of post-secondary school training in office administration or secretarial science and one (1) year of experience in the area of general office, customer service, or data entry.”

    I do have more than 2 years of general office and customer service experience.

    Should I even put my degree on my resume? If so, can I leave off my major?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You can leave it off. Your résumé is a marketing document, not a comprehensive history. That doesn’t mean you should lie, but you can definitely omit. Leave the degree off. Leave the major off.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      You should always put your degree on your resume! That said, focus your cover letter on your experience with customer service roles, but certainly do include your education on your resume/application.

      1. Mr. Cajun2core*

        Thank you. Now I see why I was conflicted. There seems to be a difference of opinions on this issue.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I think it’s a mistake to see “minimum requirement” on the job listing and assume they don’t want anything more. In my experience, most employers would see a college degree as an asset and give you an edge over someone without. An undergrad degree is not likely to make you look overqualified; I would bet most people in that role do actually have degrees, but the company has determined not having a degree isn’t a disqualification.

          Now, if you had a Masters in electrical engineering or something I’d recommend leaving it off for this type of role, but I strongly urge you to include your undergrad degree on your resume for the type of role you indicated.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        You should always put your degree on your resume!

        Where is this coming from? I don’t think Alison’s recommended always putting your degree on your résumé.

      3. Temperance*

        Hard disagree here. It will just lead to Mr. Cajun getting tasked with the more advanced/tech troubleshooting/etc. tasks that his degree would theoretically make him qualified to handle, while getting paid whatever is commensurate with an HS diploma only.

        1. Mr. Cajun2core*

          That is what is happening at my current job. Now that I know it can happen, I think I can “cut it off at the pass” at a new job. I hope.

    3. Mr. Cajun2core*

      My concern is that people will see me as “over qualified” especially since my degree is not in a related field and that people will see me as a flight-risk.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        In my experience people know that someone in a customer service position is a flight risk. It could potentially give you an edge, or it could come off as overqualified, it’s hard to say. But I’ve hired people with masters degrees for customer service positions without issue. Maybe leave it on and address it in your cover letter if you’re conflicted?

      2. ferrina*

        I haven’t seen this issue with Bachelor’s degrees. BA/BS is common enough that alone it usually doesn’t indicate a flight risk.
        Masters are more iffy but generally okay for office jobs (less so for customer service type), but PhDs for a BA/BS is usually considered a flight-risk and/or indication that this person may not be able to function outside an academic setting.

      3. Temperance*

        I’d actually be more worried that they would have you doing more advanced development and other computer-related tasks while paying you for entry-level work that only requires an HS diploma.

        1. Mr. Cajun2core*

          That is a very valid concern. However, I think that once I feign stupidity a few times people will stop asking. More so, I think that if I don’t volunteer (which is what happened at my current job) that it won’t be a problem. I hope.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Leave it on. It’s a minimum requirement. If you have a PhD or something, I might leave that off, but a BS or BA is just so common, I’d not worry about it.

  82. LongLostLibrarian*

    I had a job interview today and it was through Microsoft Teams. For some reason, my PowerPoint wouldn’t be shared to the interviews. I had to make do with presenting without my slides. Thankfully, I rehearsed enough beforehand to be able to show I knew what I was talking about. Still wanted the ground to swallow me up afterward.

    The interviewers were still as friendly with me as they were before the presenation. I’m hoping that I won’t be blacklisted after this though as I’d like to apply for future positions.

    1. ferrina*

      Oh goodness, you shouldn’t be blacklisted! Tech issues happen, and we make the best of them. Reasonable people understand that.
      When I was interviewing, my personal computer refused to do the video component of Teams. So I couldn’t see my interviewers and they couldn’t see me. We had two great audio interviews (essentially a phone interview conducted through Teams), and then they sent a job offer.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      You will not be blacklisted. If I blacklisted every candidate who had tech issues, that would be bananas. If anything, you probably have their sympathy. Good luck!

    3. Sherm*

      It sounds like you did great! As an interviewer, I would definitely be impressed if the interviewee responded to a snafu with relative calmness and was knowledgeable enough to not need to rely on the slides. They won’t blacklist you over this, and if they did, you definitely wouldn’t want to work for them!

    4. Workerbee*

      For all you know, your inability to share slides was due to a setting on the interviewers’ side! Teams has all sorts of controls.

      If you haven’t already, you can email them your deck.

  83. Clock Watcher*

    If I know my boss has a pet peeve, I roll my eyes but do my best to accommodate it, because I would not want to be constantly causing minor irritations with my boss. But what about MY pet peeves with my own staff? Should I accept this is my own issue and just be minorly irritated on the regular, or let them know? As an example, timeliness is A Thing for me. I have a staff member who shows up 2-3 minutes late for every single meeting. It doesn’t impact anything, we have no external clients, and the beginning of the meeting is usually chit chat anyway. But it BOTHERS me that my employee is always the last one waltzing in. What would you do?

    1. Paris Geller*

      Timeliness is big for me too–I absolutely hate being late, I arrive everywhere at least 20 minutes early, when people are constantly late it’s a huge pet peeve– but this is I think is a you issue you have to deal with. I can’t even really count 2 or 3 minutes late as “late”–that’s could be the difference in time in the clock in her cubicle/office/llama grooming stall and the time on your watch.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        I agree. I am always on time for meetings, compulsively, and for me it’s a respect thing – of my time and other’s. But two or three minutes is not something you can defensively get up in arms about.

        I think ONCE you could mention, casually, not making it a performance conversation, to your entire team that everyone has their pet peeves and meeting punctuality is one of yours. Not in the moment when it happens – maybe in response to talking about someone else’s pet peeves or make a thing for everyone to share theirs just as a chat topic at lunch or something. But it would have to be one time, super casual, and not punitive.

      2. ferrina*

        I absolutely hate being late, I arrive everywhere at least 20 minutes early, when people are constantly late it’s a huge pet peeve

        This cracks me up since it is a very Paris Gellar trait!

        1. Paris Geller*

          She’s my favorite character from GG for a reason!
          Though I’m definitely not nearly as abrasive. . . or assertive. She has a lot of great qualities but man I hope I’m a lot easier to deal with!

    2. TiffIf*

      You say it doesn’t impact anything, but think on these:
      Does the chit chat last longer because Late Employee joins in when they arrive? Or is there only chit chat because not everyone is present yet?
      Do the meetings go longer than they should or do topics not get covered because of a lack of time?
      Does Late Employee ever need information re-stated because they were late?

      Even if the impact is only minor, I think requiring an employee to be on time for meetings is not a stretch too far.

      1. pancakes*

        I think this is key. If I had a regular meeting that I knew always started with unrelated chit-chat, I wouldn’t make a point of being there on the dot. If the chit-chat was on account of waiting for me, though, that would be different. It’s not clear which is the case here.

    3. ferrina*

      “Pet peeve” is sitting a little wrong for me. For me, a pet peeve is an irrational dislike that is a purely subjective personal issue. Yes, it’s nice if others can accommodate you (and in the case of your boss, it’s probably good politics to accommodate), but it’s not a reflection on them if they don’t.

      On the other hand, timeliness is a workplace standard. It is reasonable for you to outline this as an expectation to your team.
      I have put this standard in place for my teams (you don’t say, but it sounds like you are the manager). I’m regularly late in my personal life, but at work, it’s a matter of efficiency. We’ve got a lot to get through, and somedays we need to go as quickly as possible so that someone can take care of an emergency project.
      The important thing is that your expectations are clear and predictable. Employees need to know what is expected of them so they know how to do a good job.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      As someone who tends to be late and therefore tries to leave her office 10 minutes before she thinks she should, so she isn’t late, I think you can mention this to people as long as you do it nicely. However, I would ask yourself if there’s maybe a reason they are late and think carefully about the type of work they do. For example, I used to have a job where I was on a public desk most of the time. That meant if the phone rang, I needed to answer it. That was my first priority. It made me late to a lot of meetings. It was just how it was. So, before you come down on your employee over this, make sure there isn’t a reason that the person is late that does have to do with how their job is structured vs how your job is structured.

    5. Mr. Cajun2core*

      For only 2 to 3 minutes I would let it go. 5 to 10 I would say something. It is almost a cultural norm these days in some places that up to 5 minutes is acceptable.

      However, does your employee know that this bugs you?

    6. Littorally*

      It doesn’t impact anything. I feel you on the peeve — I’m also a stickler for timeliness — but I think you’re going to look like a petty tyrant if you come down on this.

      At the most, I’d say you could mention to the tardy employee, in the context of a check-in, that the optics of being the last one in without fail aren’t great and that you’d like to see them pick it up a bit. But that’d be the very most you can do, because — what’s the harm? You admit yourself that there is none other than your own irritation.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      A subordinate being late for a meeting is not a pet peeve, it is a performance issue. Talk to the person about it. (Me, I will generally start the meeting on time unless someone more senior than me is the one who is late. People learn to show up on time.)

      For me a pet peeve is hating a document that has one line on page two. For Pete’s sake, edit it so that it fits on one! And I talk to people about that, too.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I would realize that nitpicking over 2-3 minutes is going to make me look like a jerk.

      BUT. I’d also want to think about what else is going on. Perhaps the lateness is a substitute in my mind that helps me avoid the real problem. Perhaps there are other things this employee does that telegraphs this job is just not that important to her.

  85. LadyHouseOfLove*

    Ok, so there is a job posting I’m interested in but weirdly enough it says that applicants to submit their things by 9/7 for full considering. Yet it’s well past 9/7 and it is still up and people can apply. Should I email them to let them know? This is through a university so perhaps this normal.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Sometimes they’ll leave the posting up until someone is hired. Usually they won’t necessarily derail their hiring process for late applications, but still want to leave the door open to stellar applicants who do apply after the deadline. Go ahead and apply if you’re interested; they might still be reviewing applications and making decisions about first interviews, but I wouldn’t bother letting them know the posting is up – they know!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, at my uni, we are required by policy to leave listings up until the interviews begin, but we generally don’t review late applications. I’d just email them and ask. I wouldn’t be offended if I got an email about that sort of thing. If you don’t hear back in like 24 hours, apply anyway. You lose nothing.

    3. PollyQ*

      If you want to apply, go ahead, but I wouldn’t send them any kind of correction. People tend not to take those things well.

    4. Esmeralda*

      Don’t send in a correction. 1. They’re well aware of it— so you’re going to look officious. Not the best look for getting an interview. 2. It’s not uncommon for postings to be left up until someone is hired. 3. They may be reviewing “late” applications.

      The last search I chaired, we got an additional position, so we included the “late” applications in our pool. And hired someone from it. I personally would have been annoyed at an applicant “letting me know” about the date. It wouldn’t be enough to toss out an otherwise good application, but it would be a data point.

    5. HeavensToBetsy*

      IME employers may leave a posting up until the position has been filled. I would still apply. It would at least show the employer that you’re interested. I have heard stories of employers calling applicants later on if the new hire doesn’t seem to work out.

  86. Llama Wrangler*

    I’m a bit anxious and could use some script suggestions for a hypothetical scenario – how to turn away a blacklisted customer?
    For a bit of context, my sister and I have the very niche hobby of let’s say, llama wrangling and run a fairly successful social media page in the small online community of llama wranglers. We’ve monetized our hobby a bit and sometimes sell our llamas online, and been lauded by other wranglers for the quality of our llamas. Since the community is so small, we’ve also cultivated great personal relationships with many of our customers, even becoming good friends with a few.
    A while back, one such friend alerted us to another customer, who we’ll call Jane, badmouthing the quality of our llamas to numerous others in the community. We’ve dealt with trolls and whatnot before but this felt different coming from a customer who we not only thought was satisfied, she was a repeat customer and even bought more llamas at once than anyone else! I had hoped to move past it with little drama, but my sister couldn’t. She was having a really rough time with her mental health and I think the whole ordeal really exacerbated it, she reacted very emotionally to the whole thing and continued to have pretty bad spirals around it as it stayed on her mind long after most people seemed to have moved on.
    My sister insists that because of this, if Jane tries to buy llamas from us again, we will not be selling to her. I agree – this is our hobby that we do and monetize just for fun, it’s not either of our full time career and we’re not obligated to sell to anyone we don’t want to, much less anyone at all if we so choose. But Jane is fairly active in the small community, and I worry about how to properly turn her away without risking her somehow further badmouthing us for refusing her/being petty or something. I also worry about the optics of blocking her. I know it’s hypothetical, but it could happen and I’m anxious and could use some script suggestions!

    1. Littorally*

      First off, given the badmouthing, I’d be surprised if this becomes an issue. Not to say that you shouldn’t have a game plan — it’s a good idea — but to take some of the stress out. This is the fire escape on your building; you want it there, but you don’t plan to use it.

      That said, if Jane does come to you for another order, you could ask her about it. “Hey, thanks for your interest. We’ve heard that you had some problems with our llamas previously — would you be willing to discuss your concerns with us before we fill the order? We want to make sure that you remain a satisfied customer.” It’s not outright accusing her of drama-mongering, but it does let her know that you’ve heard about her badmouthing and you aren’t going to just tamely keep doing business.

      Alternatively, if you don’t care to have a discussion with her, you could say, “We’ve heard you had some problems with our llamas previously, and did not come to us to remedy them. Because of this, we would prefer not to fill more orders for you.” But I think this route is more likely to lead to another drama bomb from her.

      1. LCH*

        this is what I was thinking. if she came back to purchase more, I’d be very curious why since she didn’t seem satisfied with the last ones purchased.

  87. introverted af*

    Just applied for an internal position that would be a bit of a promotion and I’m really excited for! My boss has been really supportive and provided some advice about what to highlight during the interview. I know they interview all internal applicants which is also helpful, so I’m excited to see where it goes!

  88. Anonathon*

    Next week myself and my fellow llama herders have been asked to meet with the farm owners & HR to discuss our “long-term career goals and our career path at the company”.

    This is my first job out of grad school, and after receiving my professional llama herding license last year (a big milestone in my field!) I don’t have any other personal professional goals lined up. In our company’s current role/promotion structure there is nothing for me to strive for other than adding “Senior” to my title which is based on a set timeframe. The only other possibility is being put on a farm owner track which is not something I want to commit to at my first career job. And, while I respect my boss’ technical prowess & knowledge, there are very often choices in policy, culture, priorities etc that I don’t agree with and generally doubt their ability to share the road if I was brought on.

    Any advice on a) questions/ ideas/considerations to explore in order to help me get “unblocked” in developing my personal career goals? And b) gracefully dance around the partner conversation if it comes up, or ideas to create growth within the limited structure while not getting overloaded?

    Additional context below if needed. Busy day here so I may not be able to respond.

    1. Anonathon*

      Additional context below if needed. Busy day here so I may not be able to respond.

      Current role structure is Llama groomer>Sr Llama groomer>Llama herder>Sr Llama Herder>Farm Owner. I was promoted into my llama herding role about a year ago (still refining my herding skills obviously), and started as a groomer 6.5 years ago. I am the longest standing employee.

      Myself and the other llama herders have reason to believe they’ll breach the partner discussion based on specific discussions with ownership in the past, not pure conjecture here. We also have agreed that none of us have interest in this route due to all of us feeling overloaded in our role at the moment and without support above or below us (whole other story).

      Our company is small – a few owners (2 original, one they promoted up) + 20ish staff. We have HR in that we have a duo contracting for us that are applied at the owner’s discretio

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s more to just llama herding than just llama herding.

      Is there any particular speciality in herding that you’re interested in? Mountains over plains, long-distance herding, dude-ranch herding?

      Is there something about the business that you’re interested in? Billing, generating new customers, facilities management?

  89. Capricious Capricorn*

    How on earth do I handle a team member (we’re peers, so neither of us has any authority over the other) who always runs off to the boss whenever I don’t immediately do something they want *and then* exaggerates the tale?

    An example of this: she tells me “okay so today you will take the teapot painting” and I reply “uhh I was going going to do spout shaping today?” But I still do the teapot painting, even though I’m not supposed to do that today, the rest of the day goes fine (or so I think) and then the next day I get a call from the boss that we need to talk because I refused to do the teapot painting and was storming around the place because I had to.

    When in reality, I never refused, I never did anything that could resemble storming around, I wasn’t rude in my tone (at most, a little dismayed and surprised at having this change suddenly thrown at me).

    My boss doesn’t seem very inclined to believe my side at all, and if I try to say “I was just taken by surprise, I was really set on starting up with spout shaping that day; I did do the teapot painting” I get a long talk about responsibility and the importance of communication and teamwork and how my behavior is terrible and I need to never speak to a coworker like that again.

    I’m just…. ????? How the eff can I even defend myself when something this happens? At this point I don’t know if I should just throw my hands up in defeat and tell my boss that I’m sorry I’m such a godawful person I’ll work on it.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m not sure if this will work in your context, but can you try to document everything in email? For example, I had a coworker who did this and after every interaction, I would send a friendly little email that would say, “Hi, Fergus, based on our conversation today, my understanding is that you need me to do X and Y and Z by this date. And that you’ll be handling ABC. If that’s not correct, let me know and I’ll adjust.”

      That way when Fergus said they’d asked me to do ABC, I would say, “Well, I was under the understanding that I was supposed to be doing XYZ and I sent a confirmation email.”

      But I’m also a little confused why your peer is assigning you work at all. Is she a lead on the team or something?

      1. Capricious Capricorn*

        We’re a team of 4 that shares an office, so sending an email like that would seem really off.

        Not a team leader, but has been there longer. (Which does count towards other problematic behavior with this team member, like ignoring feedback about things that need changing because they’ve been here longer, thus they know better (even if the feedback is constructive and the thing in question DOES need to be changed).)

        The way assignments works is basically the whole team is responsible for teapot painting, spout shaping, tea handle curving, and lid decorating, and none of us is specialized towards any of them. They are all shared and we have a weekly rota (so we get one week of each thing). Think of it as us producing a teapot that has a set design, so who works on it isn’t super important.

        It’s not the sudden change or assigning that bothers me though (it happens, I don’t like it, but I can deal with it), it’s the running off to the boss and making me out to be a very unreasonable person because I don’t immediately go “Okay! :D”

        1. A Feast of Fools*

          Can the other two people in your shared office attest to the fact that you weren’t storming around the place ranting?

          1. Capricious Capricorn*

            I’m very unsure if they want to be dragged into this, and if I’d be accused of creating an office-wide dramafest if I tried. (“Bringing Fergus and Jackie into this was highly unnecessary and is just creating a bad atmosphere between everyone! This is bad behavior on your part!”)

    2. Gloucesterina*

      Do you think your boss would be receptive to a big picture problem-solving conversation about this ongoing obstacle to how you organize your work?

      1. Capricious Capricorn*

        The problem isn’t really that the organizing of work (I can juggle the different things without much issue), it’s that I get made out to be a very unreasonable person to my boss whenever I don’t immediately and happily comply to what team mate wants me to do. Even when I actually DO do the thing!

        1. Gloucesterina*

          Yes, I see what you are saying!

          I’m wondering more about if/how you can approach your boss about the pattern (and impact) of all this bizarre emotional reactiveness that your colleague is bringing into the workplace for no reason. I know you’re hitting all your task goals, but I can’t imagine this reactiveness doesn’t have some kind of impact on the team?

          1. Gloucesterina*

            Though this question probably heads straight into evaluating how deep the workplace is into “boss sucks and won’t change” territory–ugh!

          2. Capricious Capricorn*

            I’m considering it, but am still waffling on the phrasing, and if the boss will even believe me at all since I think I’ve already been “marked” as a problem due to team mate’s earlier complaints. (And it seems like the boss thinks the sun shines out of this person’s ass so… whenever I’ve tried to bring up any defense on my own behalf it’s been shut down pretty hard with a pretty favorable angle towards team mate.)

            As for impact on the team, either it’s targeted at me or the other team members have already adjusted to this missing step. (I’m the newest on the team.)

        2. pancakes*

          It sounds like you do comply where it counts, though, if you get the work done on time and as expected. It sounds like the problem is almost entirely about tone: You express surprise, and your coworker habitually misunderstands that as you being uncooperative. It probably wouldn’t hurt to take more care about expressing surprise to this person, knowing that they take it in a way you don’t intend them to. You may not be able to do anything about the boss misunderstanding as well, but you may be able to reduce the number of times your coworker has a misunderstanding to take to the boss.

          1. Capricious Capricorn*

            That’s kinda the issue about surprise though isn’t it, it’s not so easy to reel in. Alas. (I am trying, but it’s a little difficult to judge the sucess rate when I can’t ask anyone else how I’m doing.)

            And, in earnest: if you have any tips or good reads on how to do so, I would absolutely love to learn.

            1. pancakes*

              Right, that is easier said than done I’m sure! Taking a breath and internally counting to three before responding aloud might help?

        3. Pocket Mouse*

          It sounds like the organizing of work IS an issue— the current system is that everyone knows exactly what they’re doing *and* you’re supposed to do what this person says, and somehow both are true even when they’re different?

          Please tell your boss this is happening! Keep your tone neutral to confused both about what the intended and actual process for assigning work is, and about how your seeking confirmation and doing exactly what you’re asked/told to do is somehow reaching him as refusal and storming around. Because that’s the truth: you need clarification on that the process is (if it’s “go with what Coworker says” then you can switch up your expectations, and thus your immediate reaction) and you’re confused about a miscommunication that somehow keeps occurring and want to make sure it’s cleared up.

          Until this gets cleared up with your boss, get out in front of her narrative! Whenever she tells you to do something different, stay pleasant/upbeat as you discuss, then follow up with an email to loop your boss in. E.g. “Oh- I had spouts on the docket for today, but it sounds like I need to do painting instead, is that correct? Sure, of course I’ll do it, and I’ll let Boss know of the change in plans.” Then email Boss a cheery note stating Coworker let you know a new need popped up so your plan for today is painting instead of spouts, and CC Coworker.

          This situation sounds exhausting, but not insurmountable!

          1. Capricious Capricorn*

            It’s kind of hard to explain exactly how it functions (and I know how weird it sounds in writing how it works for the team), but that approach would not work in the slightest, because it is 100% expected that we’re to hop onto other stations without much advance notice if someone calls in sick etc, since some of the stations have higher priority than others. E.g. teapot painting is the most important one and lid decorating can wait for a few days with no attention without it causing too many issues.

            So to send an email like that is just going to be met with “why are you sending me this? I do not need to know about this, knock it off.”

            Thanks to Allison and other sites giving good advice I have been trying my best to handle this (when called into meetings) as an honest misunderstanding/miscommunication, been a little confused and apologetic about it, expressed a lot of willingness to work on it (and actually *done* things to change it too), but it just so, so incredibly exhausting. It’s one thing after another, and it feels like I’m always left holding the pot while team mate gets off scot free. To add insult to injury, there have been people who have quit the job and mentioned this team mate as one of the reasons why in their exit interview (heard it from one of them personally that they did so).

            1. Pocket Mouse*

              Oh… then it sounds like the process is that you’re at your weekly assigned station *when there’s not a more pressing need*. In which case, why are you responding to your coworker that way when she lets you know there’s a more pressing need? Is it because you expect to receive that information from someone else? Do you have the impression there should be more of a discussion to determine who will do what when there’s a pressing need? Do you disagree that the thing she’s telling you to do is more pressing than your planned activity? Is the process totally clear to you but you haven’t internalized what that means for how you will be expected to react in the moment?

              The advice and scripts we suggest here might be off-base because it depends on details you haven’t given here. Just going to flag for you that what’s going on at work seems to be a communication issue with your coworker, you haven’t been able to clear it up through further communication, and folks here are trying to give advice without you communicating key details. If and when you do talk to one or both of them to try to clear things up, be sure to tailor the content, timing, setting, and tone of your communication to get the best results you can. Good luck!

    3. Dasein9*

      What would happen if you asked your supervisor for a meeting and asked if they have any suggestions for how you might communicate more effectively with your team? You could explain that of course you were speaking up out of surprise, not reluctance to divvy up the work fairly, and you are sincerely mortified that you failed to express that well and offended your coworker. (The temptation to overact this unto sarcasm may be strong, but resisting might pay off.)

      1. Capricious Capricorn*

        That’s more or less how I’ve been handling it so far, it’s just so demotivating when I have to take on the blame for something I didn’t actually do. It also feels like it does nothing to counterprove the things assumed about me.

    4. PollyQ*

      Your problem isn’t just your co-worker, it’s your boss — maybe even more your boss. A good one wouldn’t always take the word of the complainer and then go on to lecture you even when you explained your side. So, “Your boss sucks and (probably) isn’t going to change” is what I’d say, and the way to deal with that is to find a new boss, either with an internal transfer or a job somewhere else.

      1. Capricious Capricorn*

        Even better, the boss has said before that they are Very Concerned about creating a good work environment because the dept has issues with poor morale and retaining people. (: Yeah, it’s not a good boss. At all.

        But I’m wanting to endure for now – I’m getting transferred to another dept for crosstraining in a month or so and I’m already planning on moving to another city next year. (Want to stick it out here cause the crosstraining includes some things that is more dominantly used in the other city.)

        1. PollyQ*

          Glad to hear you’ve got an exit already in the works! I think all you can do for now is to calmly rebut each new accusation, with evidence if possible.

          2. Capricious Capricorn*

            I’m starting to struggle with the “calmly,” cause I’m starting to tear up every time I think about it.

            And all the evidence is essentially he-said-she-said, and the weight seems to be heavily weighted in the team mates favor.

            (I say seems to be because I don’t know what boss says to team mate.)

    5. Gipsy Danger*

      I think you need to talk to your coworker. Like, “Hey Fergus, Boss said you mentioned I was upset and storming around, and I’m a little confused by that. Can we talk about why you’re perceiving my reactions that way?” or something like that. And if you share an office with two others, make sure they overhear so you have witnesses to the fact that you’re not angry and storming around. Put your coworker on the spot to explain why they are exaggerating your actions to your boss.

  90. babybeardog*

    TL;DR – How much can employer say about what I do in my free time re: potential covid exposure.
    I work at an in-person addiction facility, where I work 3 days a week. I met with a friend on Tuesday evening to support their/my own recovery. Wednesday, friend reported that they had woken up with a runny nose and then tested positive for covid. I got a PCR test Wednesday and it came up negative/undetected. I wasn’t returning to work until Friday/today but contacted my manager to inform them. Employer gave me a rapid test this morning, which also came up negative. I plan to take more tests since it’s just been a few days since the potential exposure. I wear a mask at work but am in contact with 20+ people while working.

    My manager gave me a verbal warning and said I shouldn’t be placing myself in a risky position and that I need to hold myself to a higher standard. This is a little upsetting to me. Am I overreacting? As a vaccinated person, I don’t think I’m engaging in risky behavior by seeing another person (who is also vaccinated). What is risky vs. not risky now? How much can my employer say about what I do in my free time?

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I am not sure of the specific rules in your state/country and in healthcare as an industry, but this is my take:

      Your manager can ask you not to take unneccessary risks, but they can’t really act on what you’re doing outside of work beyond its direct impact on the doing of business. So if you were badmouthing your employer or acting in ways that are very harmful to the community you serve, I don’t know that there’s much the employer can do about your personal life? If you were violating a formal workplace policy regarding quarantines, etc. that would be one thing – but it sounds like you were just living your life on your time off and not ignoring a formal policy.

      The fact that you and your friend are both vaccinated makes this whole “warning” thing especially frustrating – you were following CDC guidance! And maybe that’s what you bring up again if your manager tries to scold you again – “I will continue to follow CDC guidance both at work and in my personal life. Obviously, I want to follow company policy, so please let me know if there are any updated guidelines from HR/corporate.”

      For context: I work in education in a red state and we have been asked by our leadership team to continue masking and to “take reasonable precautions” but there’s nothing where any of us would be in trouble for testing positive after seeing a friend. We aren’t required to be vaccinated (though most of us are) and most people are choosing to wear masks even though our governor has prohibited requiring them in schools.

      2. babybeardog*

        Thank you. I’ll check on the formal workplace policy regarding quarantines – as I’m not familiar with anything

    2. RagingADHD*

      CDC protocol says that vaccinated people don’t need to quarantine after exposure unless they have symptoms. If your boss wants you to be more strict about quarantine, they should put that in a policy and inform everyone (and give you the time off).

      That said, CDC also advises everyone to mask indoors with people not from their household, so if you and your friend were unmasked, I think your boss has a valid point about putting your inpatient clients at risk. Better to mask up.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Caveat: if they were making the point informally, I think it’s ok for them to comment. Any kind of formal warning that might lead to a disciplinary process wouldn’t seem to have merit.

        And if they were saying you shouldn’t meet with anyone outside work ever, that’s ridiculous.

        1. babybeardog*

          Thanks – yea, it seemed a little ridiculous to me, and a bit of an overstep. Maybe I’m not familiar with the process of verbal warning to formal disciplinary actions. It definitely makes me feel like I should have just not said anything.

    3. Alice*

      I hope you are not infected and I hope your friend gets better soon.
      Were you indoors, maskless, in a county which currently has substantial or high transmission? That is by definition risky with Delta. It’s a risk that a lot of people seem to be happy to take, but CDC recommends against it.
      I know it is awful when you are being so much more responsible than some other people and you are nevertheless getting stick — especially when you are going out of your way to act responsibly by keeping your boss informed.
      I’ll also mention that if the clients are not free to choose their own care providers (is this a residential program?), then I think the professionals in this situation have an even more serious responsibility to keep them safe.

      1. babybeardog*

        Thank you. Friend reported just a runny nose and is OK. We’re all grateful about being vaccinated.

        According to the CDC map, the entire US has a high level of transmission. I was indoors, masked and next to someone in a meeting and then in a vehicle unmasked for about 10 minutes. So yes, indoors and unmasked.

        Since this means that eating at a restaurant (which I’ve done a handful of times in the last few months) would qualify as risky. Should I request that my management develop and implement a policy about what precautions we should be taking outside of work? Are offices doing this? and yes, it’s residential.

        1. babybeardog*

          Edit: According to the CDC map, **most of** the entire US has a high level of transmission.
          Definitely high in my county. ;)

    4. Bagpuss*

      I don’t think you are over-reacting.
      Does you boss think you should be in isolation when you are not in work?
      (Assuming that you are not in lockdown/breaching any local rules)
      I also think it’s shortsighted as if they are writing someone up when they are honest about having been exposed they’re creating a situation where employees don’t share that information.

      1. babybeardog*

        Thanks. Just to repeat – it was just a verbal warning. It didn’t feel great & I’m concerned about it leading to a write up or other action.

  91. nutella fitzgerald*

    I’m reading Bad Blood (John Carreyrou’s book about Theranos) and it makes me wonder how you address employment at an org notorious to the point of radioactivity on a resume. I’m sure most of the Theranos employees were normal people, do they have to go to any additional efforts on resumes or in interviews to make that clear?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Probably. I think I’d experiment with like…not mentioning it but having a whole thing ready if it comes up, vs. addressing it proactively in my cover letter, and seeing which got better results. But it is still work experience, and I don’t think employees should be held liable for what the CEO does.

      Unless your job was something like product developer or fraud auditor I suppose.

    2. Therese*

      I can’t see why anybody would hold it against you for working at a fraudulent company if you weren’t in a position to knowingly enable the fraud. I think assuming otherwise and highlighting it in the cover letter would be weird, I can’t see that counting for you. I’d just leave it as normal job experience with whatever useful stuff I did or learned there, and I wouldn’t particularly bring it up unless I was asked. This is really different from, for example, working for Big Tobacco (which came up in an AAM letter somewhere), where employers might think it says something about your character just to have worked there.

  92. Alice*

    (Not my regular handle here)

    The company I work for has a blog of sorts, for posting things about industry updates, helpful hints for current and prospective customers of our teapot and llama products and services, etc. These posts are written by employees on a semi-rotating basis based on our areas of expertise, but writing is not our primary job and these assignments are a tiny proportion of our work (it comes up once a year per person, or less).

    A few weeks ago, I got a message from a manager: “Hey Alice, we’re running a series of blogs on alpacas. Bob started on a post about using caramel teapots with alpacas, but he’s on vacation this week and I’d like it to be ready by Friday.”

    Now, I don’t work with caramel teapots — only chocolate and vanilla. And I do a lot more work with llamas than alpacas. So already I had to do a lot more research than Bob would have.

    But also, Bob really had just started it: it was 25% finished at the absolute most. And a lot of that, I had to edit: to fit in with the structure of the piece (which was all my doing; Bob hadn’t written enough to have any kind of structure, and he hadn’t left an outline), or because the writing was just bad. And it took me a while, since I’m not a caramel or alpaca expert! But I did it.

    So then, a couple weeks later, we get an all-staff email from the organizer of the alpaca blog series: “The alpaca blogs are out! Thanks to Bob, Caitlin, Dan, and Emily for all your hard work on putting these together.” And the blog is under Bob’s byline alone.

    And I’m unexpectedly angry that I took on this work that was almost completely outside my area of expertise, apparently well enough to be posted on the blog (they made almost no edits to what I turned in), and nobody in the company knows it except Bob and the manager who assigned me the work, and possibly the organizer. I just wanted to vent here — I can’t mention this to anybody at work because it’s such a petty thing to be mad about.

    1. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

      I am my company’s primary blog post writer and I’m angry at Bob for you. If you had completed a blog post for me, especially one so nascent, I would have made sure to put you on the byline. I’m sorry they did this to you.

    2. PollyQ*

      I don’t think it would be petty to simply ask, “Hey, given how much work I did on that piece, I’d like to be credited as a co-author.” I probably wouldn’t spend any extra capital on it if they say no, but they might (and ought to) just say yes and update the post.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I would absolutely do this. I successfully lobbied for appropriate authorship credit once in a similar situation. My husband did the same when his name was left off a group project that was primarily based on his work. It might feel petty but it’s really not, you should get credit for the work you did.

  93. AnotherLibrarian*

    So, I have an intern. They are a nice person, but they are not someone I would want to hire. They are super slow to complete work, though the work is well done when they finish. They have trouble making independent decisions. They really struggle with identifying what is “important” vs what is “not important.” And yes, they have been coached on all these things over the last two months they have worked with me. As an intern, they are fine. However, I have a job opening and they have asked about the position. I do not think they would be a good fit, but they are well qualified on paper. Does anyone have language for handling this conversation? They’ve asked to speak with me about it next week.

    1. WellRed*

      I think these are all legit concerns to discuss with intern. “This role requires a high level of comfort with making independent decisions” etc

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      You should be honest and direct. Let the intern know that of course they can apply however based on your experience with her performance and skill set over the summer you do not feel she would be a good candidate.

      1. Green Goose*

        This. When I was a student worker I had a student job doing direct work with students, but I also helped out in their office with data entry when it needed to be done. Apparently they wanted someone to do the data entry as a regular job during the summer but the woman managing me, Wakeena, never told me about it and I was just in a large meeting when the announced that they had hired another student, Jane, for the position even though she had never done any of the data entry work.
        I was so confused that I asked Wakeena about it and asked why she had not asked me. She sort of sputtered out a weird answer about not knowing that I wanted the job, but years later I’m guessing she did not like my work and just never said anything and then hired someone else. It really confused me and hurt my feelings, and I think it’s important to let interns know how they are doing.

        1. Dasein9*

          Yes! This is why interns are there: they’re being paid in experience and feedback.

          Framing the conversation as “this is what we’re looking for in the candidate,” instead of “this is where you, who are just starting out, fall short” might help quite a lot.

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            Yes, I think I need to frame it as “this is what we are looking for” because I don’t want it to be a “this is all the things you are doing wrong” conversation. There are jobs they would be fine at, but I don’t think this is one of them.

    3. Gloucesterina*

      That’s awesome that you have a good foundation for this meeting, having given them consistent feedback about where they need to do to meet expectations in the intern role.

      Do you anticipate that it will make sense to echo that feedback if they ask you if it’s worth applying for this position?

      What would you see as a desirable outcome of this meeting?

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        What would you see as a desirable outcome of this meeting?

        Is a really good question… I guess some of my fear is that if they apply I will be under pressure to hire them. There’s a lot of “internal only” hiring here which I don’t agree with and I don’t want to be a part if. However, if they want to apply, I don’t want to discourage them. I guess my answer would be to set expectations at a reasonable level, because I am concerned they may have been told by other people (no one in my little unit, but maybe outside) that they are a shoe-in. I need to think more on this though, because you’re right, I need a clear idea of what I want out of the conversation before I go into it.

  94. Llama Wrangler*

    Just anxious and could use some script suggestions for a hypothetical scenario – how to turn away a blacklisted customer?
    For a bit of context, my sister and I have the very niche hobby of let’s say, llama wrangling, and run a fairly successful llama wrangling social media page. We’ve monetized our hobby a bit by sometimes selling our llamas online, and since the community is so small we’ve become known for the high quality of our llamas and cultivated great personal relationships with many of our customers, even becoming good friends with a couple.
    Well, a while back one such friend alerted us to another customer, who we’ll call Jane, badmouthing the quality of our llamas to the rest of the community. This came as a shock because we thought Jane was happy with her llamas, she was a repeat customer and even bought more llamas than anyone else! But now she was saying such terrible things about the llamas we sold her. This happened in a group chat we weren’t a part of, so we couldn’t personally defend ourselves. Fortunately our friends did. I had hoped we could move on with as little drama as possible, but my sister couldn’t. She was having a really rough time with some mental health issues at the time and the whole ordeal seemed to really exacerbate them, she reacted very emotionally to the whole thing and continued to spiral badly for a long time after most people seemed to have moved on as it stayed on her mind, and that was really hard for both of us.
    I agree with my sister that in the future if Jane tries to buy llamas from us again, we will not be selling to her. This is our hobby that we do and monetize just for fun, it’s not either of our full time career and we’re not obligated to sell to anyone we don’t want to, or even anyone at all. That said, I worry about if Jane does try to buy from us again, how to turn her away without her badmouthing us more in the very small community for refusing her service. I’m not sure the optics of blocking her would be great either. Any sample scripts/suggestions?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      One other piece of context that may or may not be relevant at all, our friend knew my sister had a tough time with the incident and let us know more recently that Jane had suddenly said some good things about the llamas she bought from us?? It was like she suddenly did a complete 180. We are, as my sister very aptly put it – “simultaneously relieved and befuddled”. It’s nice that she wasn’t saying bad things but we’re not sure what brought about the sudden change and are still wary, and we also still don’t want to sell to her given that my sister is still feeling pretty raw about the whole incident.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      One company I worked for previously used to charge outrageous rates for customers they wanted to “fire” so much so that the customer would go to another vendor. Could you charge her an outrageous amount? I know this may not work for you but it is a thought.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Unlikely since we price our llamas the same for everyone, and some of our more devoted customers who have even promoted us on their own pages have put the actual price they paid haha. I appreciate the suggestion nonetheless!

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      Can you be out of llamas when she tries to buy one? Just tell her you just sold the last one but will let her know when more are available and then never follow up? Also, maybe try to refer her away by letting her know that since your inventory is running so low she may want to check out Susan’s Llama Shop.

  95. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Paging ElspethGC. Is the medievalist in the house?
    A surprise-me search of this site took me to 2018 when you commented that you were working on an essay about health edicts in historic London.
    I immediately wondered if you had plans to expand that, to compare with today’s reactions.

  96. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

    Anyone have advice on approaching/starting intermittent wheelchair use? A little for myself, but especially in terms of fielding coworker questions?

    For context, several of my coworkers are aware I am receiving medical treatment, but many don’t understand that this is just the latest snowball in an avalanche of chronic issues. I am ambulatory (for now), but am never pain-free and some days are much worse than others. I am also female-presenting, overweight, and one of the youngest staff members.

    I am set to travel for a multi-day conference in a few months and am strongly considering renting a wheelchair for the event. Being out of my routine and away from many of my supports leads to increased pain and damage. My thought is that a wheelchair will help keep some of these symptoms manageable for this trip. The tradeoff is that I want to spend time networking but I worry that the paternalistic (and judgemental) tendencies of the coworkers attending will prevent me from doing so. Additionally, I will have to deal with why I don’t have a wheelchair “back home” (expenses, mental stubborness).

    Any thoughts or suggestions on how to frame this/answer mostly-well-meaning-but-intrusive questions would be great. I’m trying to think ahead on this so that I can feel confident making the best health decisions for myself that I can. So I do some time to get my head on straight about what this disability/impairment means for me and feeling empowered in making the choices that protect my health and remaining function.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I don’t use a wheelchair (yet) but I have a similar set of circumstances and sometimes use a cane. I’m pretty young and if people see my in the office, where most of my walking is brief, on flat carpeted floors, etc, I’m sure I come off as quite able-bodied.

      I’d say very non-chalantly “Oh I have some chronic health issues that fluctuate in severity but something as demanding as the conference just required a little extra support. It’s no big deal. Anyway tell me about [networking question]”

      Be prepared to say “thank you for your concern but it’s all under control” ad nauseam, staying very pleasant and cheerful the whole time. Nonchalance and easy cheer are hard to force in these situations but the tone makes such a difference in how people respond to you.

      1. HR Exec Popping In*

        I completely agree with Eldritch. Be matter of fact and direct about it. You can’t stop how some rude people will react or judge but sometimes individuals will take their cue from you. By being cool about it, they will understand you are not looking for sympathy or concern.

        I know that this is hard. I have some mobility issues myself that can fluctuate if I am not very careful. When I fly I often need to take a cane even though I don’t need one on a day to day basis normally.

        1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

          Thank you both! I’ll focus on finding my own chill about this so that I can handle anything that comes up calmly and matter-of-factly.

          It’s really reassuring to hear from other people in similar situations :) The AAM community is wonderful indeed.

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            If possible also look up what you might do for YOU at the end of each day or at least at the end of the conference. Hotel have a hot tub/masseuse? Really swanky restaurant nearby? Shopping trip? Whatever would lift your spirits. Multiple days of this will be really emotionally and mentally exhausting – which you can psyche yourself up for, but that won’t magically make it easy. In my experience you may experience anger/frustration, have a lot of feelings about being Perceived As Disabled (which is a different emotional process than coming to peace with a disability personally), be sick of people, and be physically worn out. Treat yourself to something nice. And check in with your therapist if you have one.

            I don’t want to make you dread the conference or decide not to go, I hope this isn’t a stressful comment, it just sounds like you’re trying to do a lot self-prep so I wanted to give you things that might come up to consider.

            1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

              Thanks for this reminder as well! When I traveled for this same conference 2 years ago (different city) it was my first big trip without any of my usual mental health supports. I learned a lot about taking time for myself then and how to try to recharge without my assistance canine. I also learned my limit on how many days I can be in that sort of exhausting professional atmosphere without her. Unfortunately, I am between therapists but I am journaling and continuing to use the coping strategies I developed with my last one.

              This time I’ll be co-presenting on a special project I developed during quarantine, so it will be both more exciting and more draining. I’m planning to visit the local zoo on either my first or last day (depending on finalization of my travel) and have made a list of restaurants/dishes I want to try. I just found out my best work friend/only age-peer is coming along too, so we’ll both have an ally with our weird office politics and in being each other’s excuse when we need alone time!

          2. A Wall*

            I agree with their advice, and I also wanted to chime in that the nonchalance and the simple, short answer is extremely important. Making them understand how your illness works or justifying why you need the wheelchair is not what you are trying to do, remember that when trying to find that chill. You are just confirming that yes, right now you need to do that.

            When folks are new to something like mobility aids, they often have a tendency to give too much information in explanation to others, and what you’ll quickly find is that frequently causes you more problems than it solves. Giving people literally any explanatory details frequently makes them proceed with either more prying, more hostility about it, or both. Remember that they don’t need to know why you need a wheelchair, only that you do in fact need it. Don’t entertain it as a topic any more than you would entertain it if someone was fixatedly trying to get you to explain why you chose to wear a particular pair of pants that day. If you know these folks to already tend towards the judgmental, it’s extra important to keep up a firm boundary that your use or non use of a wheelchair is both not their business and really quite rude for them to remark upon.

    2. Nightengale*

      As to the “back home” question, a short true answer could be “there is so much more walking and standing at these conferences than in our office back home. And there aren’t always chairs around when you find someone you want to chat with!”

      I use a cane outside and longer distances inside but not in my smallish office and I can even run (a very very short distance). It definitely confuses people, who think disability is all the same everywhere all the time. Yet nearly every disabled person I know uses different aides/no aides depending on both internal symptoms and external circumstances.

      A thought/question – most rented wheelchairs are heavier and harder to self-propel than most wheelchairs people use on a regular basis. Of course, you know you. . . is a manual wheelchair going to do it? Would a rollator (lighter weight, walk, sit) or a scooter (motorized. . . ) be better?

  97. Paris Geller*

    This is a very lighthearted question that I know comes up often but how do you decorate your workspace?

    I started a new job in June and now have a cubicle. At my previous job I had an office (and yeah, your own office is nice but mine was very small, even smaller than my cubicle now. I appreciate what I had but honestly going to a cubicle has not been a step down at all). My cubicle has a big flat desk for my computer and then I actually have another flat surface behind me along the wall (sort of like a very small table), and 3-4 cabinets below the desk and two cabinets that are built into the cubicle above my desk. There is a TON of flat table space on my desk and all the cabinets are magnetic, and the wall between the cabinets have a bulletin-board material on them.

    In short, there is a ton of space for both work things and personal things if I want them. I recently completed my 90 day probationary period so I want to feel more settled in and permanent. Most of my coworkers have a lot of fun decorations in their area, so it’s definitely in line with the organization culture. I have some stuff that I had in my old office but I figure now’s the time to update my workplace decoration choices.

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I have a set of nice “adult” Legos that are on theme with my work and my specialization – they’re a trio of birds. They had the added benefit of giving me something to do with my hands during low-involvement webinars :)

      And actually one of my coworkers has the same set in their office!

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Yes, go right ahead but start out slow. I wouldn’t do an all-out redesign and bring in boxes and boxes of things. Start with one or two and add to it over time. Congrats on passing your probationary period!

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      My workspace was the teacher desk corner of my classroom so I didn’t have a ton of stuff, but I had some family photos on my bulletin board and would put up cards or drawings from students as well. My one doodad was a tiny Tardis with a working light – it became a thing in one of my classes for students to move it to funny places without me catching them. Once it ended up on the ceiling projector for awhile!

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Things that are professional but personal:
      1. Cute desk lamp, even if you don’t really need extra task lighting, it can cozy the place up.
      2. Plants. I’m a plant lady and I have 2 that don’t really take up much space, don’t need direct sunlight to thrive, and don’t need to be watered too often (wet soil can breed gnats). Green stuff makes me feel better in general and if I couldn’t get a real plant to survive, I’d try to find a nice fake plant, that looks real, in a brightly colored pot. I also have few artwork type pieces such as a sculptural metal cactus.
      3. If you have a worn-looking or boring office chair, I’ve seen some nice chair/seat covers that add a pop of color or personality to your space without really taking up room. If that doesn’t work, a lumbar pillow would look nice and be functional.
      4. Pictures. I don’t have a bunch of family or personal photos all around me but I do like having artwork. One thing I’ve done in the past is to take a nice wall calendar apart (the kind that has a bunch of nature photos or inspirational quotes if that’s your thing) and frame them in a matching set of black frames. Amazon has sets of pretty reasonably-priced 8×10 frames in quantities of 8 or 10. It looks polished but can show your personality.

    6. Gipsy Danger*

      I don’t have a ton of space for personal items, but I do have a framed picture of my dog. I work in a medical clinic, and patients often comment on the picture and how cute she is. Animal pictures make people happy!

  98. A Feast of Fools*

    I am beyond frustrated with a staff member. I am a project manager, not a people manager. So I have no real authority over the people assigned to my projects.

    Staff Member (SM) has two main sections of a four-section project. For the past six business days, when I’ve asked her for a status update or what she’s working on today (we have daily morning meetings), SM has said she is working on Section One. I had assumed it was because she was waiting for data for Section Two, so that’s why she was focusing on Section One. [Yeah, yeah, I’m the walking example of that adage about “assume”.]

    Today’s morning meeting revealed that SM has done nothing for Section Two. She’s not waiting on data because she thought she could pull it herself. She never checked to see if she has access to the [unique] system where the data is stored and processed.

    She now has to request the data from the people who use the unique system. They are on the other side of the planet and won’t even see her request until their Monday morning (our Sunday night). They are historically and notably slow in providing data.

    Our project deadline is next Friday. As in, all the work needs to be done and SM is moved to another project.

    She knew six business days ago that she’d need this data. She didn’t even bother to try to pull one piece of it to see if she could.

    And, of course, this isn’t a one-off for her. She had “computer problems” literally all day Tuesday, the day after a long weekend. Being MIA after a long weekend also is not unique for her, not at least since we started working from home.

    This is her first professional job but she has been here for 2.5 years. She did two internships and one co-op program before starting full-time with us.

    I am dumbfounded and frustrated.

    Also, it’s basically impossible to fire anyone at my company. The best I can hope for is that she applies to an opening in another department, one that doesn’t require people to think on their own, where she can just follow carefully laid-out, step-by-step instructions, day in and day out.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      You say you’re a project manager not a people manager, but IS there a people manager you can bring this up with?Even if she can’t be fired she could be managed.

      1. A Feast of Fools*

        Yes, she has a people manager and there is another people manager who has ultimate responsibility for this project. They are both now fully informed about SM’s behavior. (People Manager of Project had already experienced some of the troublesome behaviors firsthand; I filled her in on my experiences).

        SM told her own manager in a 1:1 today that this project is hard and she’s never done anything like it before. Her manager was sympathetic. I let her manager know that SM and I had had that same conversation two months ago and one month ago; and that the other people manager had also had the same conversation with SM two months ago and one month ago. So I said I was surprised to hear that SM was presenting her mental / skillset obstacles as being brand-new realizations. (“I didn’t realize how hard this would be, so everything is taking me longer. That’s why I have 160 hours booked to the project but no completed deliverables yet.”)

        I told SM’s manager that I feel like we’re being playing. She replied, “Yeah, that’s what Other Manager said, too.”

        At least it’s out there now.

  99. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Shoring up morale in job hunting!

    I got the “no, but your background is incredible and we have you on a list” email from a job I became quite excited about, went through one recruiter interview and three internal interviews over about a week and a half. It’s not my first rodeo and I’ve been through more painful processes, but the disappointment came crashing down last night. I spent some time thinking about “why do you always get a B+? You stop short of everything” I heard from someone (not family) for years.

    Well, it’s a competitive market. The company ended up closing some open positions as I found out in the last interview. I did what I can, I pushed my relevant projects, I was enthusiastic, and I was hopeful. I don’t get obsessively attached to potential jobs and have a close inner circle I talk with about it. Some of my friends got waaay too invested on my behalf, like “that should have been YOUR job” and my MO has always been more about sighing, picking up the pieces, and moving on.

    It felt so close, but just within fingertip reach. It’s not back to square one but it feels a bit like it even though I know it’s not. How are you keeping yourselves healthy and sane? I’m still employed so it’s like I feel like my days are lived entirely in front of a monitor. I know it’s not healthy, but it’s also just about starting to cool off outside from a heatwave and I’m probably comfortable enough to get outside between that and recovery after marrow donation.

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I feel your pain. I have applied for over 50 jobs at my current employer over the past 5 years and I have not received a single offer.

    2. Neon Dreams*

      I’ve tried to keep my head up about trying to find a new job in my company. It’s huge and has loads of opportunities. But it’s super competitive and I’ve lost count how many applications I’ve sent in.

      You did what you could, OP. The disappointment sucks hardcore. All you can do is pick yourself up and go on . Some days it’s super hard. I’ve been there many times. We have to remind ourselves it’s not a personal slight. Again, not at all easy. I like to listen to uplifting music in attempts to pick myself up. or listen to sad songs to help me sit with the emotions.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Keep in mind that missing out on a job is not the same as a B+! You can be an excellent, A+ candidate and still not get the job because there’s only one opening.

  100. Not Telling This Time*

    This is about work…Alison’s work (and Elizabeth West’s work). I love the update links Elizabeth did. They do not address the problem that occurs if the OP answers in the comments of the original post. I don’t always read all the comments following a post, especially with archived posts. It would be nice if at the top of the post it would say something like “updated by OP in comments using the name ____.” Sometimes they use OP, sometimes LW, and sometimes just use a screen name and mention that they are the OP. So maybe Elizabeth could do a little more work? :) (Sorry, Alison…I love this site! I’ve been getting bleary-eyed reading the archives.)

  101. Jadzia the slug*

    Today is my last day before starting FMLA as an attempt to get my health back on track rather than quitting my toxic workplace with no new job lined up. As perhaps expected at a toxic workplace, my immediate supervisor has been terrible about my requesting leave, guilt-tripping me for leaving the team in the lurch (her words). I’m trying not to let her get to me but boy is it hard.

    Her main complaint is that I let our team of four know all at once rather than telling her first one-on-one and that I totally blindsided her. My thought process was that a) it would be better to inform everyone at once and b) I wanted witnesses in case she reacted badly (as she did). I apologized immediately and acknowledged that I misjudged, but it feels like the damage is done and I’ve been dealing with passive aggression ever since.

    I guess my question is – should I have handled it differently? Other colleagues have been very affirming but the more messages I get from my boss about how overwhelmed she is by all of this the more terrible I feel.

    1. Green Goose*

      “I wanted witnesses in case she reacted badly (as she did). ”

      I mean, it sounds like you were doing it for your own protection and not how you would normally do things at a normal job so I think in your case, you probably did the best you could with you current environment. At regular jobs, you should definitely tell you boss before telling other people, but it doesn’t sound like a regular environment if you need to go on FMLA due to the nature of the job and your boss is still hassling you about it. I hope you can relax during FMLA and hopefully do some job hunting. Coming from someone who used to have a horrible job situation, life is too short to spend it miserable at a job. Start checking if there are other options out there, you may be surprised.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agree. Normally you’d tell your boss first, but you know this person and her likely reaction and you felt you needed witnesses. She did exactly what you expected and continued to hound you. I’d have done the same as you.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Yes, you should have told your boss privately first. The person is, after all, your boss. So take that learning for the future. That said, your boss is in the wrong for not letting it go once they provided you with that feedback.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And in this one snapshot we can see why OP needs to take a leave.
        Very sorry that your place is so toxic, OP. I hope you find a way out.

    3. LizB*

      Yeah, informing your boss before your colleagues would have been the way to go. Ideally you could have brought someone from HR in on that meeting to be the witness. But what’s done is done, and it really sounds like this leave is the best thing for your health. Hopefully you’ll never be in a similar situation in the future, but if you are, now you know a better way to handle it.

    4. PollyQ*

      Yes, you probably should have told her first, one-on-one, but that doesn’t excuse any of her behavior after that. And she probably would have been just as awful regardless of how you’d delivered the news.

  102. Hopeful reject*

    I just got this rejection from a job I’d applied to:

    “Thank you for considering us for your next career move! We appreciate your interest in supporting our mission, but while we are impressed with your background, we don’t feel it matches our current needs.

    We expect to be hiring for more full-time [teapot] roles later this year that might have slightly different requirements. If it seems like your background is a good match, we will happily reach out to resume conversations.

    We wish you the best of luck in your job search!”

    Would love to know from any of you:
    1. How much of this seems just boilerplate (i.e., do they really mean it)?
    2. Has anyone ever gotten a job when a recruiter later reached back out to them after initial rejection?

    Thanks!

    1. Alice*

      1 hard to say, but it’s certainly possible
      2 on the hiring side, I have reached out to a great second-best candidate when another position opened up. Never actually hired them though — every time they have already gotten a new job where they are happy. Some of these second-best candidates would definitely get a direct pass into the final round if they were interested in another hiring process in the future.
      Good luck!

      1. Hopeful reject*

        Thanks for your response! I didn’t even get an interview, though — so I doubt I was quite second-best (which may also shed some light on #1). Hopefully they do reach out, and/or I have the same outcome as your second-best candidates — happy employment elsewhere :)

    2. Green Goose*

      That seems promising to me. If they really didn’t want to work with you after interviewing you, then it would not make sense to send the other job possibility.

      1. Hopeful reject*

        Oops, I should have noted: I didn’t get an interview. You make a great point, though — they wouldn’t bring it up if they weren’t interested at all!

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      This is a standard rejection message. That does not mean they don’t mean it and all companies want to encourage good candidates to continue to consider them for openings. Just because you where not the top candidate for this job doesn’t mean you won’t be great for another opening.

      And yes, we have recruiters reach out to past applicants when we are struggling finding qualified candidates. But your best bet is to keep your eyes open for new jobs there and reapply.

      1. Hopeful reject*

        Gotcha, thanks for the info!

        I asked because I’ve gotten a few clearly standard rejections — “We have thoroughly reviewed your application against a strong candidate pool and have concluded that your skills do not match what we are looking for at this time” — whereas this one seemed more personalized (i.e., I mentioned supporting their mission in my cover letter). Maybe this company is just better at sending warmer rejections? Anyhow I totally agree the best way to proceed is to keep searching and reach out myself if anything new opens up there.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      I asked a very similar question a few Fridays ago, and most people thought it was boilerplate, but a few people did say that was how they got a job.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      1. I do agree that this is a standard level of politeness. I guess you could say boilerplate, but it’s polite boilerplate.

      Boilerplate exists for a reason. It helps to treat everyone equally and fairly. Folks who did not measure up probably got a different boilerplate but it was probably also polite. They send out tons of these letters and there is not enough time to recreate a wheel each time a letter needs to go out. Yet another reason for boilerplate. It’s the best they can do and still answer everyone.

  103. Alice*

    My office is continuing with the pre-Delta return-to-work plans. Currently indoor masking is not required at my company when people are sitting in cubicles. I’ve pushed back against this policy, which doesn’t align with current CDC guidance or what we know now about aerosol transmission. The committee that sets the rules said, “well, your department is allowed to have a stricter rule than the company as a whole if you want.”
    I am not looking forward to persuading/begging/negotiating with my immediate colleagues to agree to a department-level mask policy.
    I anticipate with great dread someone saying “well if you don’t want to be high risk for COVID-19 why don’t you lose some weight?” — FTR my colleagues all have good manners and would never *say* that but I suspect some might *think* that. Plus I don’t see why it’s their business that an elderly relative lives in my household, and what his medical history is.
    Maybe, instead of talking about the reasons why I personally want to avoid getting COVID/passing it to family, I should focus on the science of airborne transmission to persuade the department to wear masks based on the CDC recommendation instead of the less-strict workplace rule?
    Any success stories of persuading colleagues to take safety precautions that are explicitly not required?

    1. Tali*

      I would stay focused on your goal: following CDC recommendations in the office. Bring it up with your boss, whoever handles health & safety, department head, continue to fight the good fight.
      Plan A is “we need the entire office to follow CDC guidance as a matter of workplace safety.” Anyone may have vulnerable people in their lives, and everyone is at risk for COVID. I believe (hope!) that most of your reasonable coworkers would follow this. Imagine that your office layout is blocking the fire escape and treat the issue that way.

      Plan B is if you have any individual, loudly resistant or foot-dragging coworkers who won’t get on board. You may try to appeal to their humanity with “Some of us live with vulnerable people so it is critical that we all take CDC precautions.”
      Anyone who says something about your weight has left the path of wisdom or politeness. It may ease your mind to have phrases like “My medical history is not up for debate” /”Wow, I’m really disappointed in you, Gary” ready to go.
      If they think resentful, stupid opinions about you, but they wear a mask indoors, then that’s a win for you.

      Also I recommend thinking about your personal boundaries in the worst case scenario: will you work from home? Will you ask people to step away from you and mask up when they speak to you? Will you draw a perimeter on the floor to limit contact? Will you double mask/use a face shield/wash hands every hour/etc to make yourself feel safer?

  104. Green Goose*

    Does anyone else struggle with identity when moving up the ladder at work? I was entry level at my first few jobs, and was entry level when I started at my current company but have moved up over the past seven years. I still sort of see myself as the underdog entry-level person but I’m not. It’s not exactly imposter syndrome but I still get excited about things like free lunch, or having a fun, jovial non-work related conversation with my coworkers and maybe I should be leaning into my “leadership persona” more. I’ve just noticed now that I’m in a higher position that people who are hired as my peers are just different, much more professional I guess and only discuss work (which is fine!) and just seem more adulty of an adult than me. Does anyone else experience this?

    1. Siege*

      I think I’m dealing with something slightly like this. I haven’t been promoted, since my org is flat and I’m a department of one, but I’ve found myself struggling a few times with the realization that my boss sees my role in a way different than my identity sees my role. Like, I’m an individual contributor, I have goals I meet, tasks I do, teams I’m on, etc, I have a job. And at the same time, my boss sees my role as a leader of the organization. Which is weird, because I function best when I have someone to stop me from shouting “f*ck all y’all” in meetings (not really, but I’m not a polished, 2-in-c person). It probably makes sense, but I’m not used to being considered a leader in a white-collar setting.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Absolutely. In my brain I’m still fresh out of college, and I’m naturally a “happy” person at work (quoted directly from coworkers). I can turn ‘serious’ on and off. I prefer it more towards off than on. I’d rather be approachable!

      But I’m really in a very technical, definitely not entry-level role and am being trained-ish to move into my boss’s role. Everyone else in that level has at least 10 years on me and I definitely have days where I’m thinking “who in the world decided I was an adulty enough adult to do these adult things and make these adult decisions???”

    3. Flower necklace*

      I become a department chair last year – one of two for my department. I regularly get emails from the principal addressed to the “leadership team,” but I’ll probably never see myself that way. I hate meetings and I’ve never been entirely comfortable with interacting with higher-ups.

      Thankfully, the other department chair is great with leadership so he handles most of the interaction with admin. I can stick to the smaller, day-to-day things like checking in with teachers, arranging coverage, organizing paperwork, etc.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think everyone has a version of this.
      Respectfully, seeing yourself as an underdog can definitely be a part of imposter syndrome. Any excuse that “proves” you should not be where you are is imposter syndrome.

      I think it’s fine to get privately excited about a free lunch. It’s a bit much though if you get there early and take half the food. This is to say, try not to over think stuff. If you want to be happy about a free lunch then be happy! You don’t have to share that happiness with anyone, you can just be happy on the inside.

      Some of this stuff will fade and fade quick. Enjoy.

  105. anon for this*

    Thoughts on when your work will pay for a master’s degree, your colleagues are taking advantage of it, your boss encourages it, and… you don’t want to do it?

    I’m 37, I work in a demanding director-level role, and I value my work-life balance which has been difficult to achieve in this position. I don’t have a master’s degree but I have several colleagues who are going through master’s programs right now and it’s strongly encouraged for my role. I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to give up my weekends and evenings to stare at a screen and do MORE work. I don’t really have aspirations to move up to the VP level, I’m fine with where I’m at. At this point my biggest aspiration is to make my same salary while working fewer hours and selling my house for a lot more than I paid for it once I’m done renovating.

    However, my boss is a really career-oriented person who wants us all to climb that ladder! She hasn’t pushed the idea of me getting a masters degree too hard yet, but I’m coming up on 2 years and I’m starting to wonder if it’s going to come up more now that I’m somewhat established here.

    Colleagues who are in programs now have made comments about missing their kids birthday parties, working till 11pm, going straight from work zoom to school zoom, and it sounds like a nightmare to me. I don’t have kids, but I do have hobbies, friends, family, and I don’t know, I want to just be able to sit in my back yard and watch the sun set with a glass of wine in the evening and go skiing on a powder day.

    Has anyone else been in this kind of position, thoughts anyone? I feel like if I tell my boss “thanks but I’m good” it’s not going to go over well. But really, that’s how I feel.

    1. PollyQ*

      Just say no! Tell your boss that you’re grateful for the opportunity, but your career plans aren’t that kind of ambitious and you’re not interested in pursuing a master’s degree. And I know that “director” means different things different places, but to me, that’s already a pretty high-level role, so it’s not clear that an additional degree would even help your career that much. I also think it’s likely that your boss will care significantly less than you fear.

    2. GNG*

      While personally, I took advantage of my employers’ tuition coverage benefits while in a demanding director role, I would say to others: “Don’t do it unless you really want to do it.”

      You already have multiple demands on your time and energy. It would not be realistic to force yourself to go through with a whole graduate degree program, if you don’t feel the intrinsic motivation to do it.

      It’s not entirely clear to me why your boss wants it for you so much? Of course I have no idea, but would it be worth discussing with her whether she is absolutely happy with your performance, or could there be any areas where she feels you can do better, and she believe a masters degree would help you?

      1. anon for this*

        My boss is definitely one of those people for whom the status quo isn’t enough. We should always be going after bigger better things! We sold 6 boxes of girl scout cookies yesterday, let’s try to make it 20 today!

        I think there’s also a little bit of the thought (which I am sure is unconscious) that I don’t have kids so I have tons of free time, and what else would I do with it?

    3. ecnaseener*

      It doesn’t sound like your boss will hear anything you say about not wanting advancement opportunities, so I’d focus on the time aspect of it — you have other commitments outside work hours and adding night classes to your plate would just make you too sleep-deprived to do your best work, etc.

  106. Neon Dreams*

    How would someone indicate you’ve been training people on a resume? I’m a customer service rep and have been participating in a project where I coached new reps through their phone calls. I would listen to the representative with the customer and give them guidance while the customer is on hold and in between. We finished one training program last month and another one starts next week. both are in 4 week increments. I’m not sure if I should indicate number of people I’ve trained: “trained x reps through y program” or by how long the program last.

    I am enjoying the training, though. It gives me confidence that I know what I’m doing and have transferrable skills to use in the future. What really gives me confidence is I was chosen for a second time. First time around I thought, cool, this is a one time deal. I’ll do it and move on. Nope, my manager picked me again. It means a lot to me because I told her and my other manager how burnt out I was. I told them something I liked(training) and they gave me more of it. Our company is hiring a lot of reps for open enrollment in November, so this is a good opportunity to put knowledgeable reps on the phones.

    1. ferrina*

      That’s awesome! Congrats on being picked again- that shows your training was strong!

      For the resume, definitely put the number of people you’ve trained (especially if it’s 10+). Say that you were selected as a trainer for this program (speaks to your boss recognizing this as a strength) and say what the program entails (coaching new representatives through X number of calls across 4 weeks). .

      If you’ve had any particular challenges in training that you’ve overcome, that can also make good fodder for a cover letter.

    2. Skeeder Jones*

      Are you hoping to go into Learning and Development? This exact situation is part of how I became a trainer so many years ago and I’ve worked mostly in L&D for decades. I am currently an Instructional Designer and I’m glad that I’m no longer “in the classroom” as I just no longer have the energy for that. L&D is a great career path and I love that we can have a direct impact on someone’s professional life by helping them perform better on the job. I would just put it as a list of accomplishments and if there are any stats about how the new employees are doing (call stats, customer feedback type stuff) then it’s helpful to include that information as well. Or even note the specific improvements some of the trainees experienced from the first day to the last. I hope you continue to get asked to do it! (also it sounds like you work in healthcare and that is also how I got my first office job, I was hired as a temp to handle open enrollment calls and I’ve mostly worked in healthcare ever since.

  107. Murfle*

    Oh my god, I JUST gave my two-week notice to my boss about 20 minutes ago. She took it well (or at least she was very good about keeping a straight face), and I’ve already started developing transition documents since I was waiting for the offer for the new job to become firm after a completed background check.

    I’m happy about my new opportunity, but I feel kind of sick right now. My current boss is nice. I’ve been with the company for over 5 years. I just need people to commiserate with me and tell me things will be fine, and that I’ve done the right thing. Please?

    1. ferrina*

      This is so normal! You are just fine. In some industries, 5 years is a long time to be at the same company. It’s wonderful that you’ve already started working on transition documents- that will make your current boss’s life a lot easier and she will really appreciate that.

      Congratulations on your new position!

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      You’re allowed to be happy for the new opportunity, sad to leave a place you’ve spent 5+ years, and also nervous about the upcoming changes! I bet things will turn out fine and that you’ve done all you could do to make the best decision possible for you. You’ve got this, and congrats on the new opportunity!

  108. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    It looks like I’m going to receive an internal promotion, moving to an adjacent team, but with a 6 month transition so that I can help to hire and train my replacement and continue my current role (with additional responsibilities) until someone is hired. This is a compromise, because my manager wanted to promote me directly, but there is a hiring freeze so she couldn’t create a new position for me at a higher level, instead I will retain some of my responsibilities but move to where there is already an open position at the higher level. I’m going to accept, because I need to move up at this point, but I’m not thrilled to be moving towards doing something I’m less interested and invested in than the subject matter I work with now. At the same time, a colleague at a competitor has invited me to apply to a manager position on her team, which would be analogous to my current boss’s position, just at a new company, working exactly in my field of expertise. If I accept this internal promotion, am I obligated to stay in the role for a period? Is it okay for me to interview for this outside role that I’d prefer? I just feel a little bad, since my manager went to bat for me to get this promotion so I’d stay with the company….and I’m still considering leaving.

    2. not a doctor*

      Does your manager know you’re not particularly happy with the promotion?

      (Either way, do the interview. But she should know just that part if she doesn’t already.)

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        She knows it’s not my first choice–it’s not hers either. She’d much prefer to keep me as her direct report and just promote me.

    3. PollyQ*

      No obligation to stay, and if your manager is reasonable, she’ll understand that by not giving you what you want/deserve, the company was risking losing you. If she isn’t reasonable, still not your problem.

  109. There's a Word Limit, Lady*

    Do you have any tricks to reign in a “big picture” boss? I am a grant writer and my boss is smart but tends to go for the Christmas tree affect. We create drafts together that are concise and focused, but then I’ll find she has edited overnight to add a bunch of references to stuff like BLM, the Flint water crisis, the pandemic, and childhood asthma rates in Chicago (we are a small parks department in Arizona; the grants are mostly to increase our staffing). It’s not that there’s no relation at all, but I think it makes us look, erm, unfocused. She is like this with most things, not just grants; she always wants to add more and more, can never keep to the word count limits, and makes what I think are some tenuous connections to other programs. So far I have tried suggesting we “keep this great language” in other documents and taking it back out because it truly doesn’t fit the work count limits, which she seems to accept, but how can I give her something to do besides making my job harder?

    2. Therese*

      This is your boss? Not too much you can do, I think. If it were somebody who reported to you, you could do more coaching (often writing concisely is more work than writing long, meandering texts). But with your boss, you are not in a good position to correct the fact that they are making your job harder – I think, that’s just your job to try and capture the essence of what they are trying to say concisely (and charge them for the additional time they are costing you, or explain you can’t do other tasks for them because of the time you spend editing their work, etc).

      1. There's a Word Limit, Lady*

        True, I may not be able to fix it … but it will be my problem because if we never get these grants, she’s going to get rid of me eventually! Even if I say “I don’t think this grant is a good fit for us,” once we write it, it goes on my record as a failure. And it’s not like my trimmed-down applications are sure bets either; we’re trying to do very difficult fundraising here, so there’s going to be a lot of “nos” no matter what.

        To be clear, I totally support her enthusiasm for social justice, I just don’t think it helps our case here.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Does the program actually get the grants that have all the extra stuff? If so, not much to be done.

      If not, you might be able to persuade her to try it your way, since the grandiose way isn’t working.

      If you don’t have enough feedback yet to know for sure, you might be able to bring her some articles or advice from the Foundation Center, or a similar resource, about the importance of tailoring your application very specifically and following guidelines like word count.

  110. Just asking*

    Weird question: There is an employee that is hourly who shows up an hour and a half before their shift to gossip with the onsite manager. During the hour and a half the employee is here she also intercepts the Office Manager’s phone calls, specifically, coworkers who are calling out. They (we) are instructed to leave a voice mail and reason for missing work, but this other coworker picks up the calls and takes a message, then proceeds to trash talk the caller when she hangs up, questioning the reason, accusing them of lying – it’s absolutely childish.

    For these reasons, I do not call out until the Office Manager is onsite. I guess my question is: Should this person even be allowed to come in an hour and a half early to “hang out” and gossip? AND – Should she be answering the phone off the clock?

    I have been in this industry for 30 years and at this company for 3 and I have never seen anything so unprofessional and obnoxious – but is it normal elsewhere and I’ve just never seen this done before?

    1. LizB*

      Nope, that’s bizarre. The coming in early to gossip is unprofessional but I could see it happening in some more casual (and dysfunctional) workplaces. The answering calls in order to trash talk coworkers, though, is completely obnoxious and not okay. Does this employee even need to know who is calling out and why in order to do their job? If not, it’s a huge breach of boundaries, imo, and the office manager’s supervisor should put a stop to it immediately. (And even if Chatty Cathy does have a legitimate work need to know about call-outs, I’d argue her gossip and badmouthing behavior is a sign that she should be moved to some other role or managed out entirely, because she’s not doing that part of her job well!)

      1. Just asking*

        She does not need to know who called out and/or why. She’s the bookkeeper. None of these people work for her, in fact, she has no direct reports. I believe it’s for entertainment purposes only.

      2. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        Also, her answering the calls is performing work, which means that’s time she should be getting paid for. The fact that she is doing all of this off the clock says to me that she and the onsite manager know it’s not appropriate.

        1. Just asking*

          The onsite manager is a participant in the shenanigans, definitely. I should also mention, when first shift starts, she also goes out into the building to share the information with others, including the reasons each person gave for missing work. For instance, we had a colleague who had to miss work because her husband had a heart attack. I know this because EVERYBODY knows this. I think there’s definitely some breach of ethics. To me, someone providing a personal family information or even person illness as excuse should have the expectation of privacy.

    2. Unkempt Flatware*

      I never understand those who have a problem being told to leave work if not working. There are commenters here who think there’s nothing wrong with an employee hanging around unpaid. So right away I’m on the side of, “nope come back in 90 minutes”. But that stuff on top of it? I’d fire someone who behaved as a silo the way this person is. Talking trash about others while sitting there off the clock? Out the door with you.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          It sounds like the manager might be more to blame, if he’s encouraging it? It’s on him to shut it down

        1. Just asking*

          We’re in a suburban area. All employees drive in or carpool. Public transport isn’t relevant to this conversation.

          1. Nothing Rhymes With Purple*

            And even if it were it wouldn’t excuse that employee’s other behavior. That wasn’t my point.

        2. Unkempt Flatware*

          Yes. Work in public transit admin and use daily. Work isn’t a place to spend time. Go wait for the bus elsewhere.

    3. Skeeder Jones*

      Doesn’t that violate employee confidentiality? Since attendance, and especially any medical/health information that may be provided, is part of their personnel file, I would think that is information that should be confidential. If you have an HR department, I would report it based on that because the company is at risk.

  111. Anabasis*

    Hey all!
    I have been working in health care doing admin and customer service jobs for over 20 years and I am just ready to get out. Is it possible to get a job in a different field? I am working towards my Bachelors right now. I am worried I am going to be stuck doing what I am doing until I retire.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Admin and customer service are extremely transferable skills, and you’ll have more skills once you get your degree. If you want to change the type of work you do all together you might need to do more work explaining how your work has prepared you to do x job, but people change careers all the time and the foundational skills you’ll have built will be useful in tons of industries.

    2. ferrina*

      Absolutely possible! It will be much easier once you get your Bachelors. A strong cover letter will really help, but your skills are very transferable. Healthcare admin has a lot of very valuable skills! Customer service, attention to detail (very attentive to detail), ability to use unweildy softwares, high degree of organization….I work in market research, and there’s a few fields that jump out to me on resumes- healthcare admin is one of them. Positions that have “analyst” or “coordinator” in the title might be a good option for you.

    3. Skeeder Jones*

      Customer service associates usually have to know a little bit about all aspects of operations so it is often a great place to start at a company. Do you have specific roles you want to transition to? Do you have any idea of where you want to work? If you do, you can start seeing how you can see how those jobs/roles build on things you are currently doing.

  112. Is this thing on*

    Asked for a raise, didn’t get it. Took it really personally and found another job. Now I miss my old boss. What to do?

    1. Goose*

      Wipe your tears with the new money, reach out to your boss to check in and maintain the relationship, and find ways to manage your new boss?

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is solid advice. I keep in touch with all my old bosses (except one who was super toxic). They ahve been useful for networking, handy mentors, and are nice people to boot. Now, if you miss your boss because they were a very good boss and your current boss isn’t, that’s a different issue.

      3. Is this thing on*

        this generally made me laugh. thanks for that.
        well it felt a little chilly when I left so I wasn’t sure what to do.
        old boss did reach out to me a month or so later, but it felt like too late, the damage was already done.
        nothing wrong with new boss, normal boss so far just not the same.

        1. Fran Fine*

          If your boss reached out, then it wasn’t too late from her point of view. Maybe you can reach out now and suggest a meet for mentorship or something?

    2. ferrina*

      How long have you been at your new job? If it’s only been a month or so (and you left your previous job on good terms), you can reach out to your old boss and see if you can come back.
      But if the new job isn’t terrible (just not what you’ve envisioned), try to stick it out for at least a year. Learn the new skills that you can learn there, and take the time to learn about yourself. What do you value in a workplace? What is the cost of money to you?
      Sometimes hard lessons are the ones that help us grow the most (sorry for sounding like a cat poster, still true)

      1. Is this thing on*

        @ferrina
        Yes, about 6 weeks since left new job.
        Hard to say if i left previous job on good terms. When asked for raise, boss said if you don’t like what we’re paying you, i can help you find another job. i heard: no, don’t let the door hit ya! because this company is not wanting for money and creates roles for people all the time… just unclear why i wasn’t one of them
        that stung as i thought we were close, and she’s given me a heavy workload, presumably as a reward for good work (you know that fun employer trick) and been complimentary of my work… so i took it personally when bigger efforts were not made to keep me
        also since i still work at the same company, i see they posted my old role one step below, reporting to an old colleague who i would classify as an underperformer (one of the reasons i was ready to go)

        other questions/suggestions are good
        i think i just genuinely liked old boss as a person, she reminded me of me and just had some admirable traits personally and professionally – she was ambitious, gregarious, innovative…all the things… biggest flaw for me is not asking me to stay/ not fully appreciating me and her partiality for my underperforming coworker

        also… i hate hard lessons… i’m almost 40 :)

    3. ThatGirl*

      Depends. Why do you miss your old boss? What’s your new boss like? What reasons did they give for not giving you a raise? It’s normal to miss some things about old jobs, but there’s just not enough context here beyond money.

      1. Is this thing on*

        @thatgirl

        I miss old boss as a person (see above) – also i loved problem solving with her and when she and i worked on projects or problems, we could feed off each other and come up with great solutions; i learned a lot about the business that way, and how to work with other team members cross functionally- she was who i saw myself being in 5-10 years, and just genuinely loved her as a person

        on the other hand, i wanted to correct every mistake and she was more big picture so i was running myself ragged trying to fill all the holes and put out all the fires…it took me a year to realize that… but i was already near exhaustion at that point

        reasons for not raise – just it was outside the band for my role… (i don’t think it is)… but there wasn’t even a counter…honestly i would have taken something as simple as ‘you’re already at the top of the range’ for this position… nada… which makes me think i wasn’t and there was room for more

        new boss is normal… much older, regular check-ins, nothing all consuming like my old boss was (lots of checkins and essentially a running chat commentary all day on most days..shared photos and tidbits about her family…. so i just felt like a part of her life, i guess); i think part of it too is this is a whole new field while I’d done the previous job in some capacity for 6 years

        i’m fully remote so maybe i just miss human connection, now that i type this out???

        thanks all for the responses!!

        1. Not A Manager*

          From what you describe, I wouldn’t go back. Your liking the old boss sounds like personal connection rather than any professional/functionality reason, and you already had some personally hurt feelings regarding the raise.

          I think you’re better off with more money and also with a more professionally-distanced relationship with your new boss.

          1. Is this thing on*

            You are right on not going back. Technically she didn’t ask me back or to stay for that matter.

            Now just trying to understand navigating the relationship moving forward. Professionally distanced is a good idea. What does that look like though when she asks how the new gig is going….and all I want to say is….how did we get here????

            It’s been 6 weeks and I’m obviously still thinking about it so getting over it is easier said then done …

  113. Front Desk Clerk*

    Does anyone have tips for dealing with a volatile boss? I’m thinking I should pretend in my mind it’s just a TV show and laugh along, but it’s draining.

      1. Front Desk Clerk*

        He yells when I make a mistake. Simple stuff like not being able to find a phone number sets him off.

    2. Girasol*

      Is the volatility predictable? We used to have rules that department members shared with any newbies, like “Don’t ever talk to Fergus about anything before 9:00 a.m. Never ever refill your rent-a-car at the airport gas station,” because his hot buttons were rather predictable.

      1. Front Desk Clerk*

        This is a good idea because it is predictable. It’s usually first when I arrive or in the afternoon. Maybe I should just be stoic about it. Thanks!

    3. Cute Li'l UFO*

      Like other posters mentioned there’s several levels of volatility. I worked one very short assignment before I started having panic attacks because my boss would stalk back and forth, sigh very audibly, have trouble wrangling clients, and would cut the workday short. I tried to slap on a smile and keep floating along but the more I tried to pretend things were fine the more fine-tuned the nitpicking became. I ended up quitting almost two weeks in. I could not have put up with that and I have sneaking suspicions my predecessor wouldn’t either.

      Other times it’s avoid the hot buttons. And then there’s others where you know you’re getting pushed out because the CEO sat down and screamed at you repeatedly to do work that’s out of your skillset. I’d already been looking for a new job but working for someone so out of touch with what I could and could not do (and what I was being asked to do was not something I could learn and perfect in a night) pushed it way up the list.

    4. RagingADHD*

      You have to suit it to your situation, but I have told a boss before that it is inappropriate for them to speak to me that way, I was not going to tolerate it, and I expected an apology. It worked.

      In other circumstances when I wasn’t willing to be that confrontational, I would just stare at them until they were done and then answer in a reasonable way. Less instantly effective, but it did take it down a notch.

  114. Samantha*

    Was anybody else surprised by this article in the BBC “Mother refused 5pm finish wins £185,000 payout” (www.bbc.com/news/business-58473802). It says she was awarded this sum because work would not let her switch her schedule to 5 rather than 6. As a working parent myself I do have some sympathy, but it seems weird to me that work not accommodating an earlier schedule would be called sex discrimination. Wouldn’t the situation be the same if she were a man?
    It also says she filed for discrimination (this part was denied) because the company spent 25000 pounds to fly people to New York, and accommodated the time to make sure she could fly while pregnant – but she didn’t join a boat trip and complained that she was ‘excluded’.
    What do others think?

    1. Samantha F*

      Funny, I noticed there’s another person commenting here as Samantha. Different Samantha here, I’ll call myself Samantha F.

      1. Bagpuss*

        She didn’t get the payment because they didn’t *agree* to the flexibility, but because they didn’t follow the law about giving it proper consideration – companies can refuse flexible working requests but there are specific, legal requirements they need to meet about the process of considering the request and the reasons for refusing it.

        sex discrimination includes (in the UK) indirect discrimination which includes things which disproportionately affect people of one gender. Women are still much more likely than men to be the main carer for children and to need flexibility or to work part time, so policies that don’t permit that disproportionately affect women rather than men.

    2. pancakes*

      I think personal sympathy is irrelevant to the legal issues in this case. The tribunal’s decision revolves around the employer’s failure to consider more flexible working hours, as requested. The inset text (and linked decision) clarify that in this jurisdiction, “All employees who have been with a firm for at least 26 weeks have the right to make a flexible working request,” and “If you make a request, your employer must consider if fairly and make a decision within a maximum of three months.” These rights aren’t gendered – they apply to all parents and carers.

  115. Laney Boggs*

    Tested positive for Covid on Wednesday night, after being in the office all day Tuesday & Wednesday. I alerted my manager immediately.

    They went on to have an in-person, maskless-because-we’re-eating! meeting in our tiny, windowless, basement conference room on Thursday morning. Apparently other than “deep cleaning” my desk there will be no other precaution taken, like letting the three teams on our floor work from home for two weeks.

    Corporate mandates the 3-days-a-week for no other reason than “collaboration” so I guess everyone will be in on Tuesday to spread Covid to anybody that didn’t catch it from me.

    I’m so disgusted and done.

  116. Filosofickle*

    Strange question, seeing if I can crowdsource any explanations from your suspicious minds:
    For weeks on LinkedIn, every day I’ve received a new notification that the same person has viewed my profile — an anonymous “Avionics and Flight Engineer” at National Science Foundation. Every day! Usually once but sometimes more. One Sunday I got 3 separate notifications, one early, one mid-day, one evening! I assume it’s the same viewer because my view counter doesn’t go up and there’s only one entry in my “who viewed you” list.

    So…what could cause this? I can’t see the obvious harm or scam here. I can’t even imagine what I’d report that’s wrong! But it’s pinging me as “just not right”. No one actual person would need to look up my profile dozens of times, once a day, even if they were cyber stalking me. It almost has to be a bot, right? But to what end? What’s the reason or mechanism for this? Any ideas?

    1. Albeira Dawn*

      Maybe they’re one of those people that has a ton of tabs open at once, and whenever they open their computer for the day, it refreshes the tabs. So your profile is one of those tabs, and LinkedIn sends you the notification every time it refreshes?

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Gosh that’s really weird. I could see having the same person look at your profile for maybe a couple weeks at a time if they were maybe mining your connection list for contacts (if your profile allows that) or you had a really detailed profile that explained what you did and they are using that info to help them craft a resume/portfolio. Based on what you described, it doesn’t sound like it’s a HR/recruiter so that’s out. Hmmmm, I’m at a loss here.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think LinkedIn’s algorithm for that stuff is very suspect. I remember talking about that months ago, with somebody who had had their profile “looked at” mostly by people in their own company.

      I wouldn’t put any credence in it.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Maybe they are searching for something else, and keep getting your profile served up in the results because of a strange keyword connection.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I navigate to websites by typing part of the URL into the browser’s address bar and selecting the one that pops up. NOAA’s weather website, for example. I look up a once-visited city every day because the URL list pops it up in front of mine. One of these days I’ll clear my browser history…

    6. Tabby Baltimore*

      I realize this may be too “out there” to be reasonable, but is there any chance the viewer(s) could be re-writing their own resume by borrowing language from your LinkedIn account, and then keep going back to it because they’re comparing their version with your account profile display?

  117. Tara R.*

    Well I resigned today. It was a weird feeling. This is my first job in my field– started as as an intern even—, and I was so happy here for a few years, but then the good people started leaving and the work got much less interesting. I can feel myself getting lazier with every passing week when there’s nothing urgent or fresh to do. I am so excited for my new job, my pay raise, feeling engaged and busy again. But when I resigned, it was to the new manager on her fourth day on the job, and she seemed really upset considering it was our first conversation! She kept telling me how much she was looking forward to working with me and how I have such a good reputation. And I still love a lot of my coworkers here, and I really enjoy being seen as competent and knowledgeable and I have no idea if I’ll be able to get to the same level with a brand new start. I know I’m doing the right thing but change is scary and the whole process of resigning is so stressful and I’m second guessing myself.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      Don’t second guess yourself! You made a reasoned decision, and the reasons haven’t changed.
      Since you *are* competent and knowledgeable, I’m sure your new colleagues will recognize that.

    2. ferrina*

      This is a good thing! You recognized that this workplace was doing you harm (“getting lazier”), and you left. That is the right thing! It always takes a while to adjust to a new workplace- give yourself 3-6 months to get fully acclimated and get close to the old “level” (that can vary by industry).

      It’s a rough situation for the new manager (turnover is a lot of paperwork), but this is part of her job. You didn’t choose to do this to her at this time- we don’t get to pick when we get that job offer (if we did, the job search would be a lot less stressful!)

  118. Dancing Otter*

    I know there used to be a law at the Federal (USA) level regarding the amount of notice required for large-scale layoffs, colloquially known as the plant-closing law.
    Can anyone explain (a) if this is even still the law; (b) what the size requirement is; and (c) how this affects pandemic closures?

    1. ThatGirl*

      It’s called the WARN Act – at least, I’m pretty sure that’s what you mean. It’s still in effect and applies to companies with over 100 workers under certain conditions. Not to be snarky about it, but you’d probably get more out of googling it than someone here explaining it to you.

  119. On Fire*

    I’ve never worked freelance, but I was just offered a freelance gig (part-time) to manage social media and web content for a nonprofit historical foundation. What’s a good rate to charge? It won’t involve extensive time, and they’ll be providing the content (pics, docs, etc.); I’ll just need to make it palatable for social media. Probably a couple of posts weekly on various social media channels plus website updates. (I do social media management professionally, but I’m full-time staff, so it’s just part of my salary.) How would I even go about figuring a rate?

    1. Filosofickle*

      The best way is try to find out what similar services would go for in your area. That can be tricky, though, so if you can’t get info like that, your salary is an okay place to start! Calculate what you make by the hour, and double it. That’s a reasonable rule of thumb for a freelance rate, but it might adjust down for a nonprofit if you’re in a for-profit company. Then gut check that number — how long will it take you to make a post from start to finish, and how much money would that be based on the rate? (Do NOT forget time for administrative tasks like estimation, invoicing, and communication. Or revisions.) Now, does that dollar amount make sense? Does it seem particularly high or low? Adjust from there. Don’t lowball it, though. It will probably feel a little uncomfortable! It usually does for new freelancers. Then talk to them to find out if what feels right to you also feels right to them and fits what they can afford. Personally, I prefer to say “this is what I can do with the budget you have” than lower my rates.

  120. Pls no more retail*

    I am having trouble figuring out how to market myself for job apps in an industry I barely have experience in. Here’s my situation – my training is in the arts/museum work, COVID and high levels of competition have pushed me out of that. I worked at a bank for six months and had to leave because the stress was tanking my health. I’m just leaving that off my resume. At this point, I’m at a craft retailer in custom framing. I’m loving the framing part and want to continue doing it… but not here. Retail is as bad as, maybe worse than, everyone says, plus I’ve not been properly trained in framing, just enough to know I like it and want to keep doing it.

    I’ve found a few postings for small businesses that do custom framing; what I’m not sure of is if I should even mention the retail job. I could lean on my art/museum collection experience like I did when applying for the retail position. I’m not too worried about the appearance of having a year gap on my resume, because of COVID. But would my five months of experience, mainly on the frame design side, be beneficial to include?

    1. PollyQ*

      I feel like I’m missing something? If you’re looking for a job doing framing, you should absolutely highlight your professional framing experience. A small amount of experience is vastly better than no experience at all.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        I agree. Retail is retail, and if you came to my hypothetical framing shop looking for a job and said that while you liked the framing aspect at your last job, but didn’t enjoy the retail aspect of it, I would take that at face value. Someone who wants to spend more time framing? I’ll take it!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I agree with the other two commenters. If you want to work in a custom frame shop and you have framing experience, I can’t fathom what you would gain by leaving it off. They want people who know have experience and you have it. You might not be formally trained, but you have done enough to know what you like and that you enjoy the work. That’s critical. Leave it on.

  122. The New Normal*

    I realize I am coming in at the end of the day, but I’ll post this week and hopefully next week too.

    Someone I work with clearly has early-onset dementia. Sarah is great at her job, but she’s making mistakes that are causing issues. We work at a large school and Sarah has been here for over 20 years, working in our school district for nearly 35. She is really struggling at the office to complete even daily tasks related to her job. A few weeks ago she called me 5-6 times over a two day period to ask the same question repeatedly. At that time, I approached her manager (who is my direct-level colleague) to state my concerns and give specific examples of issues, then left it up to her to handle. But today took the cake and really caused problems. Instead of Sarah making an announcement on the PA, she manually rang the bell. Kids who were at lunch went running back to class, where teachers were in meetings, on their own lunch breaks, or what not. The supervision that was out there was trying to tell kids not to go but they were overwhelmed. It is NOT easy to manually ring the bell. Instead of using the code on the phone to make an announcement, you have to dial a specific phone number and password. There’s no confusing the two at a normal time. While this is a single instance that I am highlighting, trust me when I say there are pages of examples we could provide and it isn’t coworkers being sensitive.

    Of course, today’s incident happened while I was on the phone with her manager. Her manager has no idea how to tell someone that it’s time to retire or that their brain can’t do the job anymore. We aren’t going to fire her, but we are understaffed as it is and having to take on extra duties to cover for Sarah’s inabilities is fine short-term but not long-term. How on earth do we approach this with her?

    1. WellRed*

      The mgr doesn’t need to tell her to retire (people! Stop focusing on age. See above). Instead, a kind sit down conversation about what they are seeing and express concern about what’s going on. Maybe seek advice from Human Resources beforehand. For all you know, it’s a brain tumor or something.

      1. pancakes*

        Yes, exactly. This needs to be performance-centric discussion, not an age- or health-centric discussion.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, this is not about age. This is about job performance. You need to keep documenting everything and keep pushing it up the chain. It sucks for the moment (I have a coworker in another department who simply can not seem to do her job and it is beyond frustrating), but you just have to let this one roll off you.

    2. Ins mom*

      Don’t forget there could be other reasons, medication, U T I , could be solvable. Make it performance based, needs solution

  123. Stuck in CS Hell*

    So going to try and keep this short.

    Since I last posted about being put on a final written warning, some other things have come up that made me feel I was being ignored/overlooked not just recently but for 2 years for special projects. After recent feedback on why I wasn’t moved forward on a job application that was directly related to “needing to branch out/get to know other teams/evolve skills” I setup a meeting with HR to discuss this and the lack of transparency in these opportunities (every time I heard of one was through word of mouth instead of emailing everyone on the team, so basically the bosses handpick and nobody else knows anything unless someone else mentions it in passing). While it may not be intentional and just bad communication, HR did acknowledge from my perspective it looks bad. So now there’s going to be a meeting early next week between me, HR, and my bosses undoubtedly to discuss this and possibly move me to another team (something I asked HR as looking back at other interactions, I feel my boss isn’t really listening to me or trying but not realizing the advice they keep giving doesn’t apply to our jobs well).

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I missed your last post, so apologies if I’m missing important context, but I just wanted to throw out there: in the fields I’ve worked in (academia, research, regulation) being hand picked for special projects that develop skills is very, very normal and always at the discretion of the boss. It’s not always about giving people special treatment. Sometimes it’s just about who the best fit for a project is. For example, if Hortense has a degree in teapots and interned with a chocolatier, she might get the chocolate teapots project even though I’ve done twice as many teapot projects and have been with the company a year longer than Hortense. Giving people opportunities to build skills requires a significant investment on the part of the company. It sounds like you have other concerns about this job and this org, so it might not matter, but if you decide to give them another chance, I would try and see if there’s another way your company can support your skill development. Maybe a class you want to take that they’ll pay for? A conference or workshop you want to attend? A peer mentor from another team?

      1. Stuck in CS Hell*

        Oh, so to clarify, I work in customer support and many of these are simple projects we’re all able to do/be selected for regardless if one has experience or not in that project. So say if person A has already helped with X task, they still have as a likely chance to be selected again when X task comes back up as person B, who has no experience. They do try to match some projects based on the employee’s preference (say A wants to do Y task instead of X, their boss may ask B if they want to do X and if Y comes up, ask A then).

        None of these projects require a lot of investment from the company either (it’s more like just shifting around 3-10 employees between their regular work to help for a few hours on a project for a week or so). In the 2 years I’ve been asking for projects/non-customer support stuff to do, I didn’t get one until almost a year later and only by chance because I heard soon enough through others about it to message the one in charge of it directly. Didn’t get another project until 8 months after that when I had to basically beg for an assignment, and then was just recently thrown one a few months after the last because I had learned of another going on. I doublechecked with coworkers as well and learned assignments are pretty regular and some have been assigned to multiple ones throughout a year, so it’s not like there’s only 1-2 assignments every 3 months that only a handful are picked for, but rather a constantly rotating list every month.

        But you’re also right, I have other concerns in general with this company/department that has been festering for awhile. I foolishly stayed an extra year, naively hoping a particular section would open up a new position (there were talks they were going to try) but nothing ever came of it, or rather they promoted someone else without posting the opening (I had come very close to being moved over there when it was being built up 2 years ago so was hoping I could get in the next time).

        Combined with the fact that my boss has always praised my work yet never gave me assignments unless I went around begging for them has also left a sour taste in my mouth. They may honestly think they care about me/want to help me, but at this point it comes off as just talk when there’s no action to back it up. I made it clear to them when they took over the team 2 years ago I didn’t want to continue doing CS as a career/want to move into other non-support internal positions, but between hardly being given assignments and it now being thrown directly in my face as to why I didn’t get moved forward in an internal application, combined with other things they’ve said in the past that rubbed me the wrong way, I feel a clean slate with a new team would be best, even if I plan to try and move on from here ASAP.

  124. LogicalOne*

    How do I properly handle a co-worker who always looks at me when she gets up from her desk or while she goes to sit down at her desk? Most times I won’t make eye contact because I know she’s looking (peripheral view) but when I do look up, she almost always is looking at me. It’s like if she doesn’t look at me as she gets in or out of her seat, she’ll lose balance or something. She walks perfectly fine. I’ve asked her if she needs something and she always says no or I will say Hi as like a “heyyy I notice you looking at me so maybe you should stop look at me everytime you get in/out of your chair.” It’s a little uncomfortable and I know if I go to my manager about this, my coworker will know I brought this up because she sits right in front of me with a small partition wall in between us. I’m the only person that she faces in our desk configurement because there’s a wall behind me. So unless she’s staring at the wall…. It’s also a little creepy because she’s much older than I am and I am a male. I mean, I understand that some people have a workplace crush but this disturbs me. She has kids my age. Maybe she’s being motherly. Should I try and get over her looking at me every time she gets in and up from her seat? Should I mention it to my manager? I really don’t want to hurt this woman’s feelings either…but maybe I’ll have to by going to our manager. I am perplexed.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’d try to let it go as a quirk. I think this would come off as odd to complain about something like this.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I would not mention it to your manager. It could purely be a bit of a tic, and she isn’t like, scoping you out – maybe she does have balance issues, who knows.

      What you could do is acknowledge it every. single. time – “oh, do I have something on my face?” “does my hair look ok?” “did you need something?” etc.

    3. ferrina*

      I’d opt for acknowledging. This reads as a crush to me. Don’t say hi- make it a bit awkward, like of course she’s got to have a reason for staring at you right? “Did you have a question?” “Do I have something on my face?” After a few of these (and go ahead and make it frequent), call it out directly. “You keep staring at me. Is something going on?” No matter what she says, you can say “I need you to stop staring at me. It’s a bit unnerving, to be honest.” At this point any decent person would be embarrassed and would cut it out. And you can be a little terse with her (not hostile, but disturbed, wary or creeped out)
      If it doesn’t stop immediately, I’d flag it for your manager. “Hey, I feel awkward bringing this up, but Griselda keeps staring at me. I’ve asked her to stop and she won’t. It unnerving and distracting; any thoughts on how to get her to stop?”

      1. Ramona Q*

        Please consider instead that it may have nothing at all to do with the poster. Looking in a direction (or seeming to) is not necessarily evidence of a crush.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you’re over thinking this. I would let it go. I doubt it is something she is even aware she is doing.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Agreed. Could be something as trivial as she always swivels her chair one way getting in and out of her desk, and that causes her to face you when she does it.

        It would be weird if she was sitting down and staring at you, but it sounds like it’s just a glance as she’s standing up and sitting down.

        1. Pennyworth*

          If I worked across from someone I’m pretty sure I would glance at them whenever I stood up or sat down – sort of acknowledging them without speaking. I guess it depends on the quality of the looks she is giving, but could be completely innocent. Does ”always looking at me” mean always when standing up and sitting down (no big deal) or always when sitting opposite? The latter would be offputting.

          1. ecnaseener*

            I wonder if this is one of those weird regional/cultural clashes — I definitely remember seeing something about different cities disagreeing on how much eye contact is ok to make with strangers. Maybe this woman is from a culture where it’s polite to acknowledge people by looking their way for a few seconds, and and LogicalOne is from a culture where anything more than a brief glance is rude staring.

      2. WellRed*

        Aluson has had these letters before. Honestly she could be staring into space it just happens to be in your direction.

    5. RagingADHD*

      She sits directly across from you. Having her head pointed forward (aka, “at you”) is just how people tend to orient their bodies when they move around.

      What do you expect her to do, cover her eyes every time she stands up? Sit down backwards?

    6. Carby*

      I’m perplexed! I’m perplexed about why you are even thinking about this. I’m perplexed by why you are assuming this has anything to do with you!

      Carry on with your work and stop worrying about the direction someone else’s eyes go in when they are moving around. Stop coming up with dramatic “explanations” that make no sense. Stop assuming someone is crushing on you (talk about self-obsessed!). Stop assuming they care about you in the slightest. This isn’t about you. You just happen to be sitting in the direction she faces when getting up. She’d look at a cupboard if one happened to be located there instead. She has to look SOMEWHERE!

  125. Dealing with a difficult boss*

    Give me some advice on how to deal with a boss who is, lets say difficult.

    TLDR; How do you push back on a boss who isn’t doing their job? How long do you stay in a job you otherwise like because your direct boss is absent? What if its because you think she’s not telling everyone that she lacks childcare?

    I’ve decided that I need to aggressively upward manage this situation. So what have you said/done to handle bosses who don’t communicate and don’t do their jobs consistently?

    Lets say we’re on a team that is responsible for building all of our companies tea pots and tea-related accessories. Tea pots take days to make. Tea cups are made quickly.

    Sharon is the big boss, located in Eriador. She oversees all tea-related functions. Her direct reports include some tea pot makers and a manager, Alice, who is also in Eriador. Sharon’s tea pot makers primarily make purple tea pots. Alice is responsible primarily for teacup production of all colors and oversees another manager and some tea cup makers.

    Sharon also supervises Melissa, who is based in Mordor. Melissa is my boss. In Mordor, tea pots and cups are produced. In addition to purple ones, green and red ones are also made in Mordor. Melissa supervises me and some makers, including people who exclusively make tea pots and people who focus primarily on cups and people who make a mix. Additionally, I supervise two people, a tea pot maker and a teacup maker. The tea pot maker makes primarily purple tea pots. And the teacup maker produces red and green ones, and occasionally purple too.

    Melissa is a TERRIBLE communicator. Like really bad. She doesn’t talk to me for days at a time. I can’t remember the last time I had a phone conversation with her. She doesn’t check in. She doesn’t communicate online. We haven’t had much of a discussion about anything in weeks. We have never had a development/goals/feedback discussion. She is this way with all of her reports. She does talk to the makers a bit more, but they will often complain about the lack of developmental conversations.

    Sharon is a great communicator. I talk to her on a daily basis. I genuinely enjoy her, we chat about tea and other teams in the company and general life things.

    Sharon has told Melissa that she should oversee all red-product production and make all decisions about red items, both tea pots and cups. Sharon has told me to oversee all green production, both tea pots and cups. Additionally, I’m supposed to be handling cup production and Melissa is supposed to focus more of her time on pots.

    There is not a maker assigned to just produce green items. There is a maker, Heather, who primarily makes green tea pots and occasionally cups, but sometimes also makes purple and red tea pots. Heather used to report to me, but that was never intended because as a senior tea pot maker, the idea was that she should report to Melissa. And so a few months ago, Sharon moved Heather to report to Melissa, with the directive that I should still continue to oversee green production items.

    But now, Heather lets Melissa know what she’s working on. Efforts to get Heather to come straight to me have been unsuccessful. And about 25% of the time, Melissa lets me know who Heather is working on. So despite being tasked with overseeing green production, often green tea pots and cups are shipped out without my ever knowing before or being able to give feedback or have any quality control. (In theory, none of this will ever be a problem for me exactly, like no one is going to come ask me about the green products that went out or blame me if there is a problem.)

    Additionally, Melissa is very inconsistent about overseeing red teacup production. Sometimes she does, but sometimes without notice she doesn’t. And that means me or Alice have to step in. But we’re left guessing a lot when those times are. And teacups are often on a very quick deadline – sometimes less than hour between launching on a teacup and it being finished.

    The division of labor was codified back in February when Melissa was about to return from maternity leave and we had some reorganization (Sharon had been prompted to the big boss while Melissa was out on leave, which I suspect might have been not viewed entirely positively). Prior to that, my role was less defined and Melissa didn’t delegate tasks to me, at all. While Melissa was out, I covered for her and the bosses were very pleased with how I handled everything.

    I suspect that part of the reason that Melissa is MIA during parts of the day and not communicative is that she lacks full time child care, but isn’t telling us. I think she spends much of her afternoon caring for her infant, which like I get, her husband isn’t okay with day care, getting a full time nanny is hard, there are some other complications, and I think she only has help in the morning. The tricky thing is she isn’t communicating that either. It’s a team that would be very okay with covering, if we knew we needed to cover.

    So tips on pushing back? Tips on communicating?

    1. ferrina*

      Oof, this is a long post!

      First things first- I’d focus on getting my green teapot SOPs in place. You’re in charge of that, so you can do that without Melissa. Write your SOPs for green teapot QC. Try to get buy-in from Melissa or Heather, but frame it as “here’s what I’m thinking, if you have any thoughts let me know by DATE.” That way when you inevitably don’t hear back from them, you still get to move forward. Have Sharon approve them (I get the sense that Sharon would like that you are putting clear processes in place).
      Once the SOP is in place, you have more leverage. Share them with Heather and Melissa. If/when Heather doesn’t follow them, gently remind her. After a few times of that, alert Melissa. When Melissa inevitably doesn’t do anything, you can go to Sharon. Having someone not follow SOPs is a performance issue.

      Next, what happens if you don’t cover for Melissa’s red cup production? I can’t tell if this is causing frustration/resentment, but if it is, you can step away from this (unless Sharon is directly asking you). This is a Return to Sender issue. You don’t need to clean up Melissa’s mess when it’s not your job to.

      Finally, leave the childcare part out of it. 1) Right now it’s just speculation and 2) It’s Not Your Problem ™. I sympathize with childcare issues (goodness knows I have my own), but it’s one thing to have kids in the background of a call or work odd hours, and it’s another thing to go MIA and not complete your job.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        +100000

        Also it seems like Sharon has given you responsibility and management duties on par with Melissa, is that right? If so, maybe float the idea of directly reporting to Sharon instead of Melissa at some point? It’s tricky because you report to Melissa, but if Sharon does 1:1s or reviews with you, maybe bring it up then.

  126. Gloucesterina*

    I read some of the comments to the letter about the calendar invite, and saw some conflicting accounts about how Outlook works.

    Can an Outlook wizard confirm what will happen if you accept a calendar invite but click the button to opt NOT to send an email reply to the meeting organizer?

    Does Outlook in fact refuse to allow the meeting organizer to view through any means whatsoever whether you accepted, declined, or failed to respond to the invite?

    Thank you Outlook wizards :)

    1. Workerbee*

      As far as I know, the meeting organizer will not receive an email. But they can still pull up their own invite and see there that someone declined. What I am not sure of is if you can click that (13 accepted. 1 declined) line that updates on the organizer’s invite to show who exactly everyone is, or if they just have to guess from who has blocked off their calendars or not.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I use Outlook and just checked this. If someone accepts your meeting notice, whether or not you were informed, you can see Accepted next to their name in the Tracking tab.

      If you don’t own the meeting notice, you can see the Scheduling Assistant tab and see whether individuals have the meeting block shown with a solid bar (accepted), striped bar (tentative or haven’t responded), or no meeting (declined) at that time.

    3. TechWorker*

      I am 99% sure the answer is ‘it depends’ and this is why there were such conflicting responses! Someone on that thread indicated it could be to do with whether the backend is Office365 or Microsoft Exchange Server.

      The way my organisation has it set up, for meetings where all the participants are internal, the organiser can see responses.

      For meetings where the partipants are both internal (Eg email addresses on the same server) and external (email address somewhere else) it could absolutely be the case you can see the internal responses but for the external ones to work you need that person to explicitly send an email. So some of the people who were strongly against using just ‘accept/decline’ without sending an email are saying so because of their experience of client meetings where they definitely do not get the information.

  127. idiot farmer*

    When you’re working with a bully who tends to have a lot of unofficial rules about how work should be done (to be clear, a peer, not anybody with seniority or leadership), how do you deal? We have a shared box among a 4-person team, the rule is you take what’s next. But I tend to work faster than others, and so I’ve been accused of taking too much, taking certain types of requests. I just want to keep my head down and do a good job, but I’m getting pushed around. So how do you push back and how do you keep it from getting to you?
    Thanks!

    1. She loves you yeah yeah yeah*

      Is it the bully telling you you take on too much or some one else? I personally wouldn’t worry about it unless I heard it from a higher up or this person was painting me unfavorably to someone higher up.

    2. identifying remarks removed*

      Sounds like they are jealous or worried you’re making them look bad by working faster? I worked as a temp and the company had budgeted 3 months for data input based on the pace of their employees. At my normal pace I could have done it in half the time but my temp agency told me to slow down after the first week as the company supervisor was complaining I was too fast and making them look bad.

      Any time the bully complains you can push back and say you’re following the company guidelines. If they start quoting their unofficial rules just repeat you’ve been told to follow company guidelines. Might be worth looping in your supervisor to see if they have any feedback or can remind the bully of the guidelines.

  128. TeeShirtWitch*

    I hope y’all have some experience I can draw from. My company recently updated their annual leave policy (I’m in CA). I had already maxed out my banked amount of annual leave due to previous policy where we could simply bank it for use and continue to accumulate leave hours alongside it. Historically, I’ve always used my full current accumulation by year end, still leaving that maxed out amount in the bank. What my company did was pay out one full week of annual leave and tell us that we should take additional time off ASAP, so that we would be drawing down from the bank and continue to accumulate current annual leave hours because we can’t keep accumulating alongside the max bank amount. The window to take time off was very limited (given that I accumulate at the highest rate, I was back to max in about 2 months) and no one in HR considered what our workload was like. My specific projects are an anomaly as far as funding because we have an outside funder and ‘their’ deadlines and needs are my priority, so when they say Go, I kick into gear along with doing a lot of on-the-fly or by-request type of adjustments to my work. So, I have been in a position of not being able to take time off, or take one day off here and there, which is just a band aid, and am basically losing accumulation. I spoke with my supervisor about this and also asked for some flexibility surrounding time off because HR indicated that I could not plan time off 3 months out and continue accumulation since I’m already maxed out. It literally feels like they told me, “We can’t pay you until you use up all of your last paycheck”. CA considers annual leave earned wages. I understand that the company was trying to minimize their liability when they updated the policy and paid me out for one week, but I don’t feel they allowed enough time to properly take time off nor did they offer any options for those that couldn’t just wind down and take time off more immediately. What I really want to know or hear about is if anyone has been in a similar situation, especially CA or NV (since they have similar rules for annual leave), and if anyone has successfully pushed back on HR to allow more time to accrue time or raise the threshold, what strategies or alternative solutions were worked out. Thanks so much everyone!

    1. Reba*

      I don’t have any advice on the leave administration situation. It’s my understanding that while “use it or lose it” is not allowed in CA, a cap on earned hours is. Take a look at the Q&A’s on the CA Division of Labor Standards, it answers about the cap, controlling the timing and some guidelines of what is “reasonable.”

      But, I think your real core problem is not so much this policy with HR, it’s that no one above you is setting proper expectations for this funder/client so that you can take a &%# break! I get you’re between a rock and a hard place, with HR saying “use vacation” and your supervisor saying “uhhhh you can’t go we need you!” But my inclination is to push more on your supervisor to help you get the time off, than to push on HR to let you keep working and banking leave (I don’t think they will budge).

      1. TeeShirtWitch*

        You’re not wrong about the expectations. Something is always happening or expected or there’s a deadline that was yesterday. Unfortunately, it’s a high profile client, and not someone we can really push back on for various reasons. I do, however, agree with you about pushing back on my supervisor – after reading your comment and gaining some hindsight, you’re right. I’m hoping there is a way to gain back the ‘lost’ time, that’s what I really want out of this along with time off.

    2. Senioritis Spreadsheet*

      I’m in a similar position – California rules, high accrual rate, and a cap on leave. When they first switched over, I was able to push back slightly, because they didn’t calculate my accrual correctly for a couple months, and I was neck-deep in a project. In the longer term, I’ve had to work within the system. I monitor my PTO use diligently to stay below the cap, which has involved taking time at random (especially this last year or so – no travel). I refuse to donate benefits that I earned back to the (very profitable) company.

      I think the question for your company would be, “given that I need to take X time off immediately, how do we explain this to the client and get their project deadlines extended?”

  129. She loves you yeah yeah yeah*

    Would you take on an additional part time, hourly role if you were already working a full time role?

    The background: I started a new full time job a few months ago that is alright, the work is sometimes slow but overall enjoyable and I like my boss and coworkers. I have no feelings about the company in general. Yesterday, I came across a job posting for a part time, hourly role for a company that I would be really excited to join. Their products are something I’m really passionate about and I’m supportive of their overall mission. My previous experience lends itself well to the role though it’s not an exact match so I would be learning in the role. It may also set me up well for a career change I’ve been exploring for down the line.

    I guess my main question is, is there an ethical dilemma in taking on the second role? I know working on it while at my full time role is a big no and would keep it separate. I would not accept the part time role if offered unless I can work after hours/on the weekends to complete the tasks. They are also in totally separate industries so I don’t really have to worry about dispelling any confidential information for either. I’m thinking of it more like a freelance role but the “part time” in the name is kind of tripping me up.

    1. TeeShirtWitch*

      Sounds like a great way to explore your interest for that type of work and it may even given you an ‘in’ if they ever hired your role full-time. I say go for it! I really don’t see the problem if the work could be done after hours or the weekends. Although you note they’re in different industries, you may want to re-read your company’s admin manual to ensure you don’t have to disclose anything for conflict of interest. I think the only think you’ll need to figure out is how you’d balance time for yourself to recharge, especially if you’d potentially be working 7 days per week. Good luck, let us know if you take that role.

    2. Gipsy Danger*

      There’s nothing unethical about working two jobs, unless you explicitly agreed not to when you took job 1, as long as you’re not doing job 2 while at job 1. Lots of people work more than one job.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Lots of people do this. It is completely normal and not unethical at all, as long as your company doesn’t have a policy against moonlighting.

    4. WellRed*

      Unless it’s a direct competitor there shouldn’t be an issue. I worked part time for five years at a second job.

  130. Dantalion*

    I have a sort of strange raise negotiation situation. How can I figure out market rate for a promotion when a) they don’t have a title in mind, just a list of projects and b) both I and my boss know I’m looking for work in a different industry?

    I’m working on a temp-ish basis for a property management company. I did some actual temp work for them a while back; I was apparently the best they ever had at some clerical work (mostly digitizing files). So when I graduated from my MA program (museums, hard-hit by COVID-19) without a job, I asked them if they wanted me to work for them until I found a job in my field.

    Since then I’ve done more advanced work for them and my boss asked me how I’d feel about doing that more permanently. I’m still looking for a museum job and I’ve been transparent about that. But I’m happy to do the more advanced work they need – as long as they compensate me for it. I’m already underpaid for the clerical work I’m doing, I can’t do much more advanced work at the same rate (no matter how temporary). My boss is open to this. The more advanced work includes market research and investigating new technology solutions, but they have no title in mind. Does anyone know what kinds of roles I can research to figure out market rate is where I live?

  131. Lauren*

    I’m a late 30s childfree cisgender female. A new colleague to my area, who I assume is around my age and is also a cisgender female, has put up photos of her child on the partition wall next to her desk. These are printed on office paper and are quite large. They are also in full view of everyone. One of the photos is a close up of her child in the bathtub. I don’t know why this is worrying to me, but it is. I would never say anything to anyone or suggest she take it down, but I quietly worry about the randoms who see the photo (unfortunately there are people out there who would use that photo for pretty horrific personal use), and what the child would think (if she was old enough to comprehend it, which she currently isn’t) if she knew everyone in her mother’s office had seen her naked.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think I’d put that photo up in an office but I have never understood the “people have seen you naked!” They’ve seen a photo of a naked baby. Naked babies pretty much look alike, they look nothing like the adult they become and they tend to be pretty tame in nature not hump or anything. However, if your kid wants the photo not shown, respect it.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I don’t know why this is worrying to you either. Cute baby bath pictures are one of the sweet things in life.

      We all know about Rule 34. It applies equally to everything. If you worry about it too much, you’d be freaked out have a photo on your Linkedin profile or put up a picture of your pet, because someone will put it to horrific personal use. They probably are, right now.

      If it bothers you, don’t look at it.

  132. Vesuvius*

    I actually have positive news to share! I have been doing job apps since late April of 2021, and left a job that was Hell in June of 2021 (I developed a worsening medical condition due to burnout and I am now on a new medication, which controls it but it’s $$$ if I am uninsured or on basic health insurance). I have gotten an interview offer, and honestly might be getting yet another? (I am hopeful.) Based on my qualifications and location, I wasn’t expecting to hear back from this one (it’s south of me, by a long ways). I’m nervously excited and I am both biting my lip a bit about what my partner might say (he has a good local job, and obviously we’d RATHER I got something local, but…I’ve heard like zilch since that one job I didn’t get in July, which was great but I flubbed a question because I was anxious). If this is a good job, I take it, right? I think?

    Funny enough, the location of this particular job is actually around an area my dad’s ancestors settled back in the 19th century. I am in the US. So I have some weird history tying me to this location (even though I personally have never been there; my cousin also went to university there). This is obviously Not Exactly My First Choice, but if it is really, really good I need to keep that in consideration. COL is also significantly lower there as compared to here. (I am great at budgeting. I am not great at doing fun things. I consequently am OK being jobless for awhile longer, finance-wise, but we cannot afford a bigger apartment here until I get a new job.) I guess my question is, if I get an offer immediately what do I do?

    My partner is at work today, so I’m trying to figure this out. I more than fit their desired qualifications (I’m actually overqualified, with my experience) and honestly I love this kind of work. I wouldn’t have even applied if I hadn’t gone “OMG DREAM JOB??” when I looked at the description. Also, what is a typical hiring window/start position if I have to move about 7h south of where I am? I would be happy to look for an apartment and move, in all honesty. I was (as I said) not expecting to hear back on this one because I am so far north. If I do end up accepting this one I will probably negotiate a start date so we have time to find an apartment. Both my partner and I wanted to move and have wanted to get a 1BR for awhile, but my old job and pandemic made that next to impossible. The last time we discussed moving my Hell Job inflicted a ton of medical problems and exacerbated my chronic health condition until it became routine to drive into work at 4am while sick. (It’s a chronic pain disorder, so it just sucks to work with it flaring up.) I don’t know what to do or how to feel (mixture of excited and guilty atm?), because I’m genuinely excited but I know my partner has a job he really likes here, and would prefer to stay local.

    There is the added complication of having to see my old, horrible boss and grandboss at work if I take the local position. I worry that that might affect me in an interview. At the same time, they won’t be able to treat me the same way they did because if they do, I don’t actually have to compromise with them. I just…I don’t know how to feel about this? Does anyone have advice on interviewing for local versus not? I don’t want my toxic job to affect me getting a job in my field in this area, but I don’t know how to not think about it at least a little bit.

    1. Vesuvius*

      Update: my partner is good with moving if it’s really a great job. I hope it’s a great one if I get an offer. If not, we’ll figure something out.

      So I can be excited yaaaaay! Interview is on Thursday afternoon. I just need to practice interviewing my interviewer because I really don’t want to wind up in a horrible job again.

  133. Aggretsuko*

    I’m so exhausted after a day in the office and I have to do 3 days starting next week. I know it’s a petty whine.

  134. Claire*

    So I recently went through a two-round interview process with a presentation aspect.

    Came down to me and another candidate – didn’t get the job. The CEO is considering me for another, higher level role but is looking at ‘internal resourcing’ first. How seriously should I take this? Is it just a soft rejection?

      1. PollyQ*

        No guarantees, obviously, but I’d say you’re probably genuinely in the running. If they wanted to reject you, they’d just send you an email (or ghost you, unfortunately).

  135. Need more coffee*

    I drive a company van, and keep equipment in a padlocked cage at the central office. This morning I tried to unlock the cage with the remote control key fob for the van. … Didn’t work.

  136. don't wanna hear that*

    Am I unreasonable for planning to quit a job for insisting on referring to me by a name I don’t go by?

    I (mid 30s, female) have had a few jobs by now and this has never been a problem at any one of them other than a grocery store I worked at in high school. I go by my middle name for a number of reasons, but mostly because I was named after an abusive relative and my first name makes my skin crawl. My first day was last week and HR enrolled me in bunch of software and a little desk plate that all have my first name on it. I asked if there was any way it could be changed to my middle name, they told me ‘legal names only’. I tried bringing it up with my boss who said HR was the final word on it. I’ve tried bringing up that several coworkers have names like Bill and Jim that they get to use, but the answer is still the same. People keep referring to me by my first name, despite my attempts to correct them, because it’s plastered all over everything and I’m super duper uncomfortable. Am I being unreasonable here for wanting to just cut my losses and walk away?

    1. PollyQ*

      Not unreasonable! What they’re doing is bullshit, and I’d bet they’re unreasonable in multiple other ways as well.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If I were Thanos Steven Smith, I would offer a compromise to HR. Use T. Steven Smith on paperwork.
      I would also look into legally changing my name. (And when pushy relatives ask too much information, you can fall back on “using my middle name was causing problems in my career.”)

    3. Business Librarian*

      This makes me nuts. You ARE using your legal name. Your middle name is your name. I would ask them if you could use the first initial/your name combo but if they insist on effectively changing your name to one you don’t want, I’d be planning on leaving too. Especially if people are allowed to use diminutives like Bill.

  137. Christine S.*

    Here’s a small, probably silly, but positive question, and I would appreciate any thoughts on this.
    I work in an academic library. For the past five years, I was the part time cataloger/tech services librarian. This summer, our Interlibrary Loan Coordinator left, I applied for the job, and I got it! I officially start this Monday and I’m so happy!
    Would you classify this as a “promotion,” or as a “new job?” It is definitely a step up: as PT cataloger I worked alongside the more senior, FT cataloger, and as FT ILL Coordinator I will manage all aspects of the ILL department and have an expanded role on the university library staff. However it isn’t really what I think of when I think “direct promotion” — it’s not like I went from “cataloger” to “head cataloger” or something like that, plus I will be in the same department and reporting to the same Assistant Director. Thoughts?
    (Also, library folk may get a chuckle that a cataloger is asking for help with classification here. :) )

    1. ecnaseener*

      I think it’s a promotion – I don’t necessarily assume all promotions are within a defined pipeline, its just any step up at the same employer.

      So: Congratulations on your Big Promotion :)

    2. Business Librarian*

      I would count it as a new job. You’ll be using your knowledge and experience as a cataloger to do a good job in ILL, but you will actually be doing a totally different function. People in our library that work in ILL (staff and librarians) jump through a lot of hoops to make it work smoothly, but they don’t change records or process new material. Good luck and congratulations! I’m always excited when I hear someone got a full-time library job!

  138. A rose by any other name*

    My company is collaborating with another company (Company 2) on a Widget. There is a job at Company 2 I’m interested in and want to reach out to a contact there that I met years ago for an interview (didn’t get that job) who I know is working on the current collaboration.

    Should I reach out using my work email (so they’ll recognize the connection) or personal email (less of a connection)?

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Because you are angling for a new job, use your home email account. You can identify yourself within the email.
      Alternatively look and see if they’re active on LinkedIn — I say active, because there have been some opportunities I’ve missed when people only used LinkedIn and I didn’t sign on for months.
      Save work email for times when you just enjoy someone’s company and want to discuss widget theory over coffee. And if you want to post them for your own company, start with the coffee and discuss the poach in person unless/until you can email THEM at a non-work address.

  139. ecnaseener*

    What are your thoughts on if/when you have an obligation to volunteer for some of your coworkers’ work?

    The workload for my position is variable — I get assigned relatively few teapots but they’re big, complex projects. I generally can’t predict when a new one will come in for me or when an in-progress one will come back to my inbox. So there are weeks where I’m super busy and weeks where I have pretty much no teapot work to do and can catch up on side projects.

    Some other people on my team work on the bulk of the smaller teapot orders. They’re pretty consistently busy. So I sometimes feel uncomfortable when I’m having a slow week and they’re overwhelmed. I could volunteer to be put back in the rotation to take a fraction of these smaller orders. (I’ve been in this rotation before when were understaffed or training new people.) I haven’t done so because I don’t want to be stuck with this extra chunk of work when the next big teapot order comes crashing in.

    I sort of feel like it’s either on them to tell our manager if they need work taken off their plate, and/or it’s on our manager to make that call. The manager is looped in on a lot of my work (both the big teapot orders and the side projects) so she can no doubt tell when I’ve got spare time to work on non-urgent projects.

    TLDR: where do you draw the boundary between “selfishly twiddling your thumbs while your coworkers struggle” and “setting reasonable boundaries around only doing the work you’re actually supposed to be doing?”

    1. Curious*

      I volunteer only if I know the task I’m volunteering to help with is either short enough that it will not impact upon my own workload and workflow when it starts back up, OR if it is terribly urgent in some way.

  140. Curious*

    I’m curious. People who want to return to the office…why do you want to go back? And do you want to go back full time, part time, or just sometimes? I’m not being dismissive or rude; I’m genuinely curious.

    I love working remotely, and will certainly look for another job immediately should my boss tries to pull us all back into the office. (If I’m in a financial position to quit on the spot, I will. No joke.)

    I know a grand total of one person who wants to go back into an office, and that is only because she sees work as her main social outlet. Everyone else is either one day a week or fortnight in the office, or remote forever (going into the office a few times a year).

    1. ecnaseener*

      I want to go back part time once case numbers are down, for a few reasons:

      – I can focus much better when I’m in a designated work space, it puts my brain in work mode

      – I can manage my time better when there’s a little activity around me – it keeps me conscious of the passage of time. (In school I never studied in the library, the dining hall outside peak times was much better!)

      – If I’m not forced to leave the house, I run the risk of turning into a sea slug

      All of the above can probably be traced back to my specific flavor of ADHD, for what that’s worth.

      – And yes, I miss social interaction with colleagues, I miss the mentorship that comes with off the cuff conversations!

    2. ecnaseener*

      Also I think there was an ask the readers post about this a few months ago. I forget when or what it was called.

    3. Flower necklace*

      I’m a teacher and I hated working remotely last year. My work is highly collaborative, even for teaching. It’s much easier to ask questions and check in with other teachers when we’re all in person, instead of waiting for a response to a text or an email. It’s also a lot easier to get a sense of what’s going on with the students.

      For me, personally, it also makes the day go by faster. Something I love about teaching is that it’s never boring. It’s nonstop action from the second the day starts until it ends. I get to school at 7 a.m. and the next time I look up, it’s 3 p.m. and most of my department is already gone.

    4. Lore*

      I live in a small apartment, in a location chosen very carefully for its access to public transit, groceries, etc so that I don’t need a car ever. Spending 100 percent of my time there is making me crazy, but I don’t want to move to a less convenient, less exciting neighborhood or suburb to be able to afford enough space to have an office at home. My home internet and heating/cooling are not ideal for working either. And I don’t have space for both a work computer and a home one which makes the separation even more challenging.

    5. London Calling*

      – I have a small flat. When I was WFH work completely took the place over so I wasn’t so much WFH at living at work and I REALLY dislike work taking over my refuge
      – I don’t have the set-up I need to WFH effectively
      – I like the commute as a break between work/home
      – WFH means everything takes three times as long to get done because I can’t just go and speak to people r leave a note for them
      – I live alone which meant that during our first lockdown I pretty much spoke to no-one every day. My mental health really took a hammering and the day I went back to the office after furlough the uptick in my attitude was very noticeable. I got three times as much done in the office as I did at home

      If my job said WFH forever I’d resign on the spot. No joke.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I work for a very small company. But our office is in a great location downtown. 2 dozen good restaurants within a few blocks, neat retail places I like to hit on my lunch break, good for walks, close to stuff at the university. So being at the office means that I get to take advantage of all that cool stuff, instead of just sitting in my house all day long.

Comments are closed.