open thread – March 4-5, 2022

by Alison Green on March 4, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers. (Questions only please — no posts just to vent, etc.)

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Repeating the new rule from last week: Please use this post to ask questions, start discussions, or seek advice, but not to just relay stories about your workplace. They get so crowded as it is that I’m hoping that might make them more useful and easier to navigate for people.

    (Feedback on this welcome, based on how you felt last week’s went.)

  2. wondermint*

    AAM has talked a few times about being firm with your own name – no one can give you a nickname or an alternative name no matter the circumstances. It’s your name.

    I have a coworker who does not speak strong English (we are in a country where English is the official language). He pronounces my name a little off, which is completely fine with me given his accent. The problem I take issue with is he also spells my name incorrectly a lot (not always, but more often than not). He has a few spelling variations, each resembling something closer to the way he pronounces it rather than my actual name. He could be sounding it out while typing which leads to the wrong spelling. We communicate a lot via messaging apps, so he certainly sees my name on the screen and could copy it from there.

    It hasn’t caused confusion at work because we’re small, non-client facing, and the context suggests he’s referring to me. Though as our company grows, which it’s on track to do, it could cause confusion in the future (a Joaquin/Wakeen situation). Mostly, it’s embarrassing because he and I are the only people in our department and I worry it looks like we’re misaligned on a fundamental level. Which isn’t an exaggeration, our language barrier has caused misalignments before. Though I’m not the only person who has had with miscommunication working with him. That’s a separate issue which I’m glad to say has gotten better the more we worked together.

    I have called him out on it (privately, cheerfully) but it never sticks. I don’t want to him to feel ostracized because he’s our only non-native speaker. Is it best to chalk it up as a quirk and let it go? Wait until it causes an incident to be firmer?

    1. hamsterpants*

      Has the name issue itself caused miscommunication?

      Different context but I review academic articles where many authors are ESL. My policy is to only correct their English if it interferes with communication.

      1. wondermint*

        Not yet, it’s more about it causing miscommunication in the future, and on a personal level I’m sort of annoyed the coworker I work the closest with can’t spell my name right (while unusual for a woman, it’s not a particularly long name)

        2. Snuck*

          I’d be tempted to change my avatar to the correct spelling… if it’s an unusual name.

          Send him an email, and just spell it out. Be kind, and say “hey! It seems there’s been a miscommunication somewhere, and I just wanted to let you know the correct spelling of my name. I know it’s a tricky one! But as we bring on more customers, and more staff, this is going to become important. Can you please spell my name correctly wherever you can going forward? It’s important to me!” If he doesn’t then do it, you can forward that email to your manager when it blows up one day and say “look, I tried to handle it, but it didn’t work. See here, on Slack, on email, and verbally on (according to my diary) the 12 of Never”.

          But I would add… if he is making lots of typing errors in other parts of his communication this might be less about your name and a lot more about his grasp of language. If that’s the case then maybe raise that with whomever is supervising you both and say “hrm… it seems Wakeen has some challenges when communicating with me, here’s some examples… how would you like to handle this going forward with more customers and more staff?” And let the manager handle it.

      2. Everything Bagel*

        The co-worker has been told before and can look at the letter writer’s name in their system. Unless you’re comfortable just asking, hey, so why do you keep spelling my name like this, in a friendly way, I would just wait until a bigger issue comes out of this. Unfortunately when that happens it may be a bit embarrassing for your coworker for others to see that he spells your name wrong, but maybe then it will stick.

        1. quill*

          Yeah. It’s possible he’s just gotten your name stuck as a slightly different name, with a more familiar (to him) spelling.

          … I may be something of a subject matter expert, since my given name has very common letters for girls born in the US, and COULD be short for a couple of more popular names, but is definitely not.

          1. hamsterpants*

            I have a male colleague whose name is Michel, pronounced like the English girl’s name Michelle. I can’t imagine all the ways people bungle his name.

            1. NotMe*

              I have an extraordinarily uncommon spelling of the name “Lani” as my name. No one could pronounce it correctly, even when it was blatantly phonetically spelt. People do not care about the names in front of them any where near as often as the person being called does. I just lump it, and carry on. I use Lani for ease in general communication because the other version of the spelling causes so much conjecture and error.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      You can’t do this for him but side note: I had a coworker whose name I had a hard time spelling, which was mortifying because my own name is obscure and I’ve been correcting it all my life. I printed out her name and taped it to the wall above my desk so I’d see it all the time and a) always have the correct spelling on hand and b) in the hopes that repetition would drill it into my head. I eventually did get it right.

      Are there any tricks you could [nicely] suggest to help him remember? My name has vowels at the beginning and end which can vary, but my variant is symmetrical (that is, if mine had an A and an E in the first half and could have an E, I, or Y in the second, it has another E and then ends in an A, so there are fewer vowels to remember). That there are both vowels at each end also helps people remember that it’s *not* another, similar name that has a different meaning and only one of those vowels at the end.

      1. wondermint*

        I don’t know if I have any ‘tricks’ that wouldn’t confuse him further. I have been considering giving him leeway to use a nickname, as in only write out the first syllable of my name, but it just felt weird. I also don’t want it to catch on with others.

        I think I’ll just have to wait until it causes an incident. My question was more about prevention but you’re right, I can’t do this for him.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          What about just your initials? I have an indirect report who tends to address e-mails to me with my first initial instead of my first name (which I find vaguely irritating, but I think that’s mostly because it’s coming from someone whose communication in general is less than ideal). It’s less presumptive than a nickname you might not want.

          2. Cold Fish*

            This is what I was going to suggest. At my company we use initials when documenting internal notes and that has carried over to some communication (especially internal communication) because it is just so simple to type XX than Xavier Xerces

          3. Sparkles McFadden*

            Yes, I did this when I had a similar issue with someone in one of our remote international offices. I never could figure out why he had such a problem since my name was right there, spelled out in the email list, but I started using a first initial only with that office. I was fine with being S. McFadden professionally, so this worked for me.

        2. Jinni*

          Is there a way to add your name to the system’s spelling database? I know a Rachael (that’s how she spells it) that constantly autocorrects to Rachel and while I *almost* always corrected it, I didn’t always notice. I finally had to add to every autocorrect feature (email/Word/Chrome/Grammarly) because it was exhausting always apologizing.

          1. Momma Bear*

            I will forever be grateful for whoever integrated Word and Outlook so that when I am spelling a coworker’s name it gets flagged if I fumble.

    4. doreen*

      You mentioned you communicate a lot on messaging apps – is it possible he’s using speech to text and his accent is causing the issue with your name?

        1. Momma Bear*

          That might be a way to bring it up – “I’ve noticed….if you’re using text to speech you can teach it words by…”

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Does your name show on the messaging app? I am rarely more annoyed than when people misspell my name even though they can see it on the app. Right there next to where they typed it incorrectly.

      3. Xena*

        I have a pair of friends with unusual names who use speech-to-text a lot and have a running joke of never correcting whatever speech-to-text adds as the name for their conversations with each other unless it’s something inappropriate. Siri’s gotten better over the years but still tosses up some beauties.

        That said, it’s an inside joke between the two of them and not the most appropriate result for business communications.

    5. Anonymous Hippo*

      Does it actually bother you? People both spell and say my name wrong all the time, but I don’t actually care. I know who they mean, and so does everyone else. There is no confusion, and nobody is doing it out of any kind of malice. Honestly I mostly don’t even notice other people have to point it out.

      So I think you should consider that when you decide. If it does both you, than you are 100% in the right to ask that your name be handled correctly, but if you don’t actually care, and there is no business issue, I for one would let it go. I understand other people would feel differently, and that there can be a whole mess of other issues and microagressions tied up in names, but my situation is separate from those for me.

      1. wondermint*

        The reason why I care is because he and I work closely together and I fear it comes across as a misalignment on a fundamental level. I’m also trying to nip it in the bud as our overhead grows. On a *personal* level, no I don’t care that much. However, I do draw the line at nicknames, which I considered but chose not to move forward with.

        1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

          I don’t think anyone is going to think that this is a “misalignment on a fundamental level.” Working in a law firm but thinking you’re a lion tamer is a misalignment on a fundamental level. They’re just going to think that English isn’t his first language and he has trouble spelling your name. I honestly think you’re blowing this way out of proportion.

          1. wondermint*

            Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps I am blowing it out of proportion, but a name is personal . I’ll wait until it causes concrete confusion to say anything firm.

            1. Gnome*

              “But a name is personal”

              Based on this, it does sound on a personal level that you do care. I am not trying to nitpick your words. I wanted to bring this up in case deep inside you actually do personally care and take offense.

              1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

                I don’t think it’s off to care that people spell and pronounce your name correctly. And yes, I think coworker needs to be reminded every time or they won’t make more of an effort, which is what needs to happen.

                1. Gnome*

                  I agree. It’s perfectly reasonable to care. Wondermint is saying they personally don’t care, but then says their name is personal. It makes me wonder if they do actually personally care, and if so, it may change how they approach the issue.

                2. Loulou*

                  Right, but OP said above that she doesn’t care much on a personal level but is concerned about how it comes across. When someone pointed out it probably doesn’t come across the way she fears, she responded by saying a name is personal, contradicting her earlier comment.

                  It’s fine and normal to just care, personally, that people spell your name correctly! But just own that instead of coming up with sort of specious reasons that it matters besides “it bothers me.”

                3. wondermint*

                  I wanted to reply to Loulou’s comment but the thread has gotten to long I don’t think the website lets me.

                  As stated in my original post, my first concern is that the misspelling causes confusion with our growing team – a “Joaquin/Wakeen situation” for legacy readers of AAM who remember that letter. I referenced that situation because it’s closely related; Coworker spells my name incorrectly, including the first few letters.

                  My comment of “a name is personal” is because this blog has repeatedly suggested that names are personal and should not be changed. Does that perfectly apply to me? No, but it felt like an unbiased take so I brought it up. I don’t care that he says it wrong. But given it gets completely butchered in spelling, and prime communication is via written word, AND it’s on the screen to reference, I do think it’s reasonable to want it to be spelled correctly.

                  What *is* personal to me is that I am unwilling to take on a nickname to resolve this. I am considering initials, but a nickname just isn’t me.

                  I’m going to pause replying – some people are suggesting I’m blowing this out of proportion and to that I say, I’ve thought about this enough and it’s time to get back to work!

                4. allathian*

                  Reply to wondermint here:
                  I don’t much care if people butcher the pronunciation of my name. I grew up bilingual, my name exists in both of my first languages, and is pronounced differently in each. It also exists in many other European languages in various versions, and I’m not offended if people use the one that comes naturally to them. However, I will correct people if they spell my name wrong, and I will think badly of someone who consistently spells my name wrong and doesn’t even attempt to correct it despite several reminders.

            2. Momma Bear*

              I don’t think it’s out of line to ask someone to spell your name right. If your name is Randi and not Randy, then one is your name and one isn’t. You can both be understanding of someone’s bad spelling/non-native speaker status and want your name to be right professionally.

          2. Siege*

            That sounds exactly like the words of someone who hasn’t had their name mangled, misspelled, and/or mispronounced constantly. Most recently, my boss of nearly four years mispronounced my last name, my coworker is trying to give me a nickname because she is very stupid, and everyone everywhere is continuing to spell my name the much more common way. I would be livid at this coworker even as I recognized it’s likely not intentional.

            Names are personal, and they are important to get right.

            1. Smithy*

              I think this is far more context and individual based.

              In the example I provided, I was an American living in a non-English speaking country where I was able to get a job despite my limited language skills because that organization had such a high need for native English speakers for a certain role. For this and other reasons, I knew I was in a fairly privileged place and my surname in particular is a hyphenated Ellis Island evolution. Seeing it get changed again in a new context amuses me as part of history more so than offends.

              And there are other circumstances where misnaming and mispronunciations have far different contexts and people feel differently. Both perspectives are valid, but I think being mindful that there are both views on this one is helpful. Some people really don’t mind and for others those moments are far more upsetting and disrespectful. But I think knowing that both sides exists helps have those conversations and center what the issues are that you’re looking to address.

            2. fueled by coffee*

              Yep. My name is the less common of two possible spellings (think Hannah/Hanna) and is CONSTANTLY misspelled. I know people don’t mean anything by it and aren’t doing it intentionally, but it’s so grating for it to happen so consistently. My name is right there in my email signature! I communicate in writing with these people all the time!

              I’m sympathetic to the coworker’s struggle with English, but he’s been informed that he’s spelling OP’s name wrong and continues to do so. I’d be annoyed! And I think there’s grounds to point out that you’ve already asked him to spell your name correctly, and would appreciate if he would make an effort to do so. I’m a mediocre Spanish speaker but that doesn’t give me grounds to go around spelling “Eduardo” as “Edwardoh” just because that’s closer to how I pronounce it.

            3. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

              Au contraire, my first name is long and weird and my last name is “ethnic.” Most hills are not worth dying on.

            4. tessa*

              My best friend’s real first name can be spelled in a myriad of ways, and she happens to have one of the more unusual spellings, but she’s managed it. There are those times, like employment background checks, where she checks to make sure her name is spelled correctly, but other than that, she expects to have her name misspelled, just because people make mistakes, so she has a good perspective about it. Not everyone is “someone who hasn’t had their name mangled, misspelled, and/or mispronounced constantly” just because they disagree with the OP. To say that you would be angry at someone’s unintentional error at mispronouncing your name makes me wonder how willing you’d be to be on the receiving end of your own convictions when you do the same, because certainly you have made the same error, as we all have. Looks like those around you have accepted your error amicably and moved on. Good for them.

          3. anonymath*

            I might disagree. If my senior director colleague always gets my name wrong (especially when I’m the only woman) it can definitely come across as a sign of disrespect. “Senior Director doesn’t even respect Jayne enough to get her name right.”

          4. PT*

            I agree, too. I’ve worked in diverse environments and nitpicking this is just going to make you look like a racist, even if that’s not what you intend to.

        2. tessa*

          “I fear it comes across as a misalignment on a fundamental level.”

          If it helps, if I were your coworker, I would see that someone misspelled your name, and leave it at that. I mean this in friendly way: I think you’re over-thinking the situation, especially since, as you say, your co-worker’s English isn’t strong.

          I wouldn’t worry that you’re coming across as misaligned unless it becomes that you are misaligned. Even that, though, doesn’t prove that his misspelling of your name is the cause.

        3. alt ac*

          I taught ESL for a number of years, and I’m curious: Does your coworker’s primary language use non-alphabet characters? My students who spoke Arabic always spelled their names differently, and when I asked they said it’s because our alphabet didn’t translate well for the spellings of their names, so sometimes it would be “Mahmood,” “Momood,” “Mamoud,” or “Mahmoud.” It was a little hard to get used to, but especially if this is the case, I would not take it personally.

          1. Baroness Schraeder*

            We had a visiting colleague from Japan working with us for over a year, and I found it highly amusing that she not only called our senior director “Flank” (Japanese people struggle with the “r” sound) but she also wrote it that way for the entire duration of her stay, no matter how many times someone corrected her. For the record, he didn’t seem to mind as far as I could tell.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        I just want to say: It’s OK if this does bother you. It’s your name. You’re not obligated to let it go to make things easier for somebody. People learn harder words than my name all the time.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think it’s fine to be firm with the spelling as long as you’re polite and do it privately. It sounds like you don’t much care about the pronunciation, which is good if the sounds are difficult for him to produce, but asking him to spell it correctly is not unreasonable.

      2. allathian*

        Yeah, I absolutely agree with this. Especially since he can see the proper spelling in the IM program they’re using.

    7. Smithy*

      I used to work in a non-English speaking country where my boss mispronounced my first/last name and assigned me a nickname the entire time I worked there almost to comical effect. She’d ask if I ever went by nickname, I’d say no – then she’d continue to call me that. Similarly, ask for the pronunciation of my surname and then continue with other variations.

      As she was a non-native English speaker and I was working in a country where English wasn’t the dominant language, I was already going into this with a lot more understanding around both the nickname and mispronunciation. But even with all of that, I think that attitude is a big piece on whether this is ever an issue or not. My boss would introduce me as Nickname Alternative Pronunciation Last Name, and I’d just smile and say “it’s lovely to meet you, I’m My Actual Name, the ABC at Llama Grooming Inc”. So instead of a Joaquin or Wakeen situation, it essentially became a “I go by Joaquin AND Wakeen”.

      This was my boss, so different power dynamics – but not making it an issue was so much easier and genuinely didn’t cause confusion. Certainly as you grow, this might present a challenge and reason to address it again. But for now I’d encourage continuing to let it slide.

      1. wondermint*

        I definitely let it slide in spoken word, in fact I don’t care at all if he butchers my name out loud. It’s his misspelling during instant message and email that irks me. Our team communicates primarily over instant message given we’re 100% remote and across multiple time zones.

        1. Smithy*

          In my situation, because the spoken language used a different alphabet, the mispronunciations did ultimately lead to my surname having a wide range of spellings as well. And even with external contacts, it really was never an issue. We worked in an international context, so it may be that my industry is more sympathetic to misspelling of names – but it genuinely wasn’t an issue for 3.5 years and what felt like a handful of different surnames.

          I think when the attitude is adjusted to make it “not a big deal”, it doesn’t have to be one. The issues that will result in escalating the issue beyond “issue that irks me” to “work related concern” is when work ends up being assigned to someone else, there’s a delay because clarification is needed to confirm who he’s referring to, a manager pops in and is confused, or something similar. If that happens, then the resolution is also easier to focus on because there’s a clear problem or concern to identify.

    8. Attractive Nuisance*

      Are you sure he understands correct spelling is really important? I had some classmates in grad school whose native written language used logograms rather than an alphabet. I remember in our second or third year, there was this big eureka moment when a professor explained that each word in English has one correct spelling and all other spellings are incorrect. Apparently that was something a lot of my classmates hadn’t fully grasped until then, even though they spoke and wrote pretty well in English. You might try to politely make sure your coworker understands this.

    9. Myrin*

      I’ve found that there’s an astounding number of people who seem incapable of spelling names correctly. It’s baffling to me, especially since most of the time I see it happen in contexts where the correct spelling is right there in front of them and I can’t for the life of me figure out what made them not just copy it letter-for-letter (example from my life: a friend of my mum’s regularly vents about her arch nemesis. Everyone involved in this is German except for friend, who is from Italy. I can totally understand why she can’t pronounce “Zängerle” 100% correctly, but I can not at all understand why she would spell it as “Zenderl” in every single text she sends to my mum).

      I’ve come to the conclusion that there simply are people who… don’t see the differences, for lack of a better word. I’m an extremely visual person so this is not something I can truly understand but I’m reminded of when my mum, who is an internet whizz but knows basically nothing about computers, had to take a course on MS Word and as an exercise, she had to try and recreate a document the teacher had prepared, with instructions and everything. She somehow managed to put the body of this document into the header, rendering it light grey and strangely spaced apart, and when I, upon her request for help, said “Obviously that’s not right, it looks completely different!” she looked at me like I had grown two heads and replied “What?! It looks the same!”.

      All that is to say, it seems likely to me that your coworker genuinely doesn’t see the wrong spelling (again, no idea how, but I’ve seen it often enough to doubt it). I don’t think there’s anything you can do; I honestly don’t know if even an embarrassing outside incident caused by this would get him to spell it correctly. An earnest inquiry on your part, like “Dude, I’m sorry, but what is it with you and my name? Why does it always end up being wrong?” might help but… well, I’m skeptical.

      1. Loulou*

        Yes, and it’s not even a foreign language thing! A lot of people just can’t spell well and don’t notice spelling errors.

        I’m actually not one of those people BUT…I email people from other countries all the time and have taken to just copy/posting their names from what they wrote themselves. Even if I think I know how it’s spelled, there are too many variations and it’s just safer this way.

      2. Kate*

        I agree with this analysis, and I also love “a friend of my mum’s regularly vents about her arch nemesis.” Please write a cozy detective novel about these three.

    10. theletter*

      I would go ahead and be firmer about it now. You’re not ostracizing him, it’s the expected that one should spell their coworker’s names correctly, and failing to do so makes him look bad.

      But on a lighter note, I helped someone once get a company to pay for some outside English training by suggesting they sell it as ‘presentation + communication courses’.

    11. Sara*

      I have a few coworkers who do this. I have a name that has a few common spellings (think “Sara” and “Sarah”). I would send an email from my work account (saradoe @ company.com), sign it off by including “thanks, Sara” at the bottom, and my company signature “Sara Doe, Teapot Designer” would be autofilled at the bottom. But I have a few coworkers who message me or email me “Hi Sarah” every time. It does bother me, and I’m not sure why. English is their first language, and we are on the same level (different titles, but both admin jobs). Each time, I email/message them back, and at the bottom, include something about “by the way, I spell my name Sara.” I always get an apology/some sort of assurance that they’ll remember, but they just…don’t. I’m the only Sara here (no other Sara or Sarah) so there hasn’t been any confusion, just frustration on my part. I don’t really have advice… more just letting you know that I think some people just are bad with names, you don’t need to let it go if you don’t want to, and since you are at the same level, maybe just reminding him every time would be a good way to do it (hopefully he’ll get the point quicker than my coworker!).

    12. Haha Lala*

      As someone with an often misspelled name, I feel you on this.
      If I was a third party copied on one of his messages, I wouldn’t think it was a fundamental misalignment, but I would interpret it as him not taking the effort to learn your name, or not caring enough to get it correct (which might not be correct! But that’s still not a good look for him)

      If you’re on good terms with him, you can frame it as an issue of making the department look bad.
      “I know you know my name, but I’m worried our department looks unprofessional when my name is routinely misspelled, and it might confuse people that don’t know me well. When you’re messaging other teams or departments, can you make sure to spell my name correctly? You can copy it from my signature or messaging app to make it easier.”

    13. Cj*

      My last name has an “i” where there is most commonly a “y”. I’ve had some clients for 35 years that still spell it wrong. As long as the bank will still cash the check, I don’t care!

      But that’s just me, and if realize people have different opinions on this.

    14. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Just because he’s a non-native speaker doesn’t excuse him repeatedly misspelling a name. Especially since it’s not the same misspelling every time. He just doesn’t care to spell your name correctly, which is disrespectful.

    15. Banana*

      This happens to me. I just let it go. The guy’s job is highly complex and he’s doing it in a language that is not his native tongue, it’s like the old adage about Ginger Rogers doing all the same dance steps Fred Astaire did, only backwards in heels. His mispronunciation is consistent with his accent and he treats me with tremendous respect and is a good work partner. I’d only correct him or ask for clarification if there’s a risk someone might get confused.

    16. sushi*

      One of my co-workers has a note in their email signature line and slack profile regarding their name – their first name is hyphenated, ie: Sarah-Lee, but people tend to just address her as “Sarah.” The note in her signature politely explains that her full name is “Sarah-Lee” not just Sarah. I’m bringing this up as an idea to address your concern that other people may misunderstand your name because your coworker is spelling/pronouncing it wrong.

    17. Sunny*

      The spelling would bother me personally because that is not your name. I would just correct him like you would with anyone else — “heads up, my name is actually spelled [NAME]”.

    18. Kate*

      My son’s name is Malcolm. While not a top 10 name in our country, it’s the name of a well known historical figure who frequently pops up in pop culture, and separately, was in the title of a popular TV show that was widely watched by the demographic who are now parents of little kids.

      My friends misspell his name in texts to me ALL. THE. TIME. Including when we’ve been texting and I’ve spelled it properly just above. It bugs me, but it’s convinced me that some folks must struggle with spelling in the way others do with faces, that what seems like a normal, easy recall to many of us just isn’t, for whatever reason.

      I would say that if it causes any professional communication down the road, where your coworker writes “Consult with Kayt” to someone else and has to sort out their reply of “who’s Kayt?” that will do more to help him correct it than a slew of polite reminders from you.

        1. Ampersand*

          I’m guessing Malcom—I’m typing this from my phone, and it recognizes Malcom as a name/didn’t try to autocorrect. It does try to correct Malkolm to Malcolm, though.

          I could see how this happens with text—your phone doesn’t correct the misspelled name so you think it’s correct. Of course, this logic also requires completely ignoring Malcolm’s mom’s correct spelling of his name any time she mentions him. That’s less understandable!

      2. California Dreamin’*

        I’m an Elizabeth in the US where that is the very standard spelling and it’s not a particularly unusual name. I have a long-time friend, also American, who spells my name Elisabeth despite certainly having seen it in print many times. I’ve never corrected her because it’s more just an annoyance. Recently I texted her my new email address and she texted back “Oh, I see I’ve been misspelling your name… the Z is much cooler!” (Which… what? Elizabeth is not a cool, edgy spelling of Elisabeth.) I’m not kidding, the next day she texted me starting out “Hi Elisabeth.” Go figure.

        1. allathian*

          She’s done it so often that it’s probably in her autocorrect, even if she spelled it Elizabeth…

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          After 3 years of corrections, my phone may have finally stopped adding a second L into “Alison”…autocorrect can be really glitchy.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      Can he add your name to his dictionary so it gets twigged for being misspelled?

    20. KR*

      I’ve had similar happen in jobs I worked at. There’s a chance this person spells other names incorrectly too. My advice is to let it go until it becomes a problem. If I was your coworker I wouldn’t think you two were misaligned, I would just think this person isn’t great at spelling.

    21. A Feast of Fools*

      My manager gets my name wrong in print frequently. He’ll use either the most common spelling (which mine isn’t) or the common masculine version.

      I mentioned it to him once. Then, because our relationship allows this, I would reply to him and change his name in whatever way he had just changed mine (adding a letter or misgendering it, for instance).

      He still gets it wrong more than he gets it right.

      BUT… I also see that he misspells a ton of other things, too, and doesn’t create “perfect” sentence structures on the fly. So I’m chalking it up to a learning disability.

      Since I know it’s not malicious, and since I am never in question as to whom he means, I’ve made a conscious decision to find it amusing and endearing.

    22. Esmeralda*

      It’s your name. Correct him every time. Every. Time.

      It doesn’t matter what language he speaks, it doesn’t matter that English is the lingua franca of your office or country. This is not a language issue — I mean, maybe it is for him, but big picture it is not. Whatever his language, he has to spell it correctly.

      I have students and colleagues from non-Western countries with names that are not usual to my experience or are hard to sound out for me as an English-speaker. And yet, I manage to spell their names correctly every time. Because I put in the effort.

      Your colleague needs to put in the effort. Correct him every time.

      1. The Amazing Dr. B*

        Agreed. My husband and I work at the same place and have the very same name, just spelled differently. I always correct spelling, otherwise, it is entirely confusing.

  3. Miss. Bianca*

    In the beginning of February I wrote in the open thread how my manager of 2 years originally gave me 5/5’s on my performance review but had vague non-answers about advancing or clarity between seniority levels, and gave an update last week how he actually gave everyone on the team 5/5’s, which HR kicked back since that rating would mean that person is ready to be promoted so he told me how he changed everyone’s review to 3/3. I planned on using our 1:1 time this past Tuesday to go over each thing he rated me on. Since he never had concrete or thought out answers before during our chats about the review/promotion criteria, I sent him a team apps chat on Monday: “Hey Fergus — can you please think about some examples and reasons why you changed my performance review rating before our 1:1 tomorrow?”. He responded: “Hey. I had to change everyone’s because I did it incorrectly the first time around. It wasn’t because of anything you did or didn’t do, I promise. 3 means you’re doing a great job.”

    The next day during the 1:1, I started to go through my performance review, asking why he gave me a 3/5 rating and what a “successful” (3) vs “exceptional” (5) looked like. Right away he refused to answer and got defensive and super nasty. He even said “I’m about to get frustrated” (that sounded like a threat…) and how another coworker who was promoted last year after 5(!) years (aka, why can’t you be good like Felicity and wait?). He kept trying to put it back on me, but I held my own and he was visibly flustered and angry at the end of the call. I went away thinking, “ass”.

    Later that afternoon, he video chatted me, and apologized and acknowledged he acted more defensively and combatively than he should have. He said he had a really bad meeting with his boss and the CEO right before, and he acknowledged it wasn’t an excuse. He knew where I was coming from, and going forward he’ll take the review process more seriously. I said “I appreciate it”. But still no actual feedback!

    Y’all were so right with him being clueless, he’s absolutely beyond clueless. I’m going to update my LinkedIn profile over the next few weeks and open it up to recruiters. I haven’t seen any job posting that wows me yet though.

    How am I even supposed to speak to this man going forward? I don’t have it in me to be all nice and smiley with someone who did that to me. This is clearly a “him” issue, but does anyone have suggestions on how to act with him going forward? I thought we had a good relationship but this was so eye opening on how he really thinks. In my experience when people get that combative, it’s never a one-time thing. Who knows what will set him off again. 

    1. Miss. Bianca*

      Further notes:
      – In January I asked HR for information on the different seniority levels and promotion process, they said to talk with my manager
      – Re: My boss’s boss – his thinking is “a 3 is still very good” so I don’t think he’d get it
      – I’ve been asking my boss since January the different between my position vs. a senior, he says the only difference is pay
      – He’s clueless about everyone’s skillset (and lack thereof) and workload
      – He’s been with the company about 7 years, he’s been promoted 5 or 6 times, other people in the company usually got promoted after 1 – 2 years

      1. lost academic*

        He doesn’t want to promote you and he doesn’t want to talk about it. I don’t know if that’s the only way to get promoted where you are but updating LinkedIn and starting to look is the right move since it’s important to you.

      3. Zephy*

        I’ll +1 everyone else’s recommendations to just bounce, but if you want to take one more run at this, try using the actual words “I want to be promoted to Senior Llama Analyst this year” and see what he says, because it sounds like maybe you’ve been dancing around expressing that specific idea in those specific words. If you’ve been asking questions like “what’s the process for advancement?” “what’s the difference between a llama analyst and senior llama analyst?”, that could be construed – even if rather uncharitably and obtusely – as general-interest questions about company processes and not actual requests to be considered for a position.

        1. Miss. Bianca*

          Yep, I told him a few weeks ago I wanted to get promoted to Senior and if he saw that for me and he went, “ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm”.

          1. Jean*

            There’s your answer. If he were on board he would have at least said “Let me think about it and get back to you” or something. Anything besides crickets.

          2. Momma Bear*

            I would take this as there isn’t a clear path for your promotion at this company and you should continue to see what other jobs are available. Sometimes the only way up is out.

        2. BRR*

          I agree with this. I don’t remember all of the past posts but from this one alone it sounds mostly focused on the performance review (which I understand might be tied into a promotion). So if you haven’t been crystal clear direct (and you might have already, I just don’t know), that could be taking one last attempt with him.

          1. BRR*

            Oops I was posting while you posted and didn’t see your reply. Yeah he’s given you our answer. The same thing happened to me at my last job and it’s so frustrating. Good luck with your job hunt!

      5. Snuck*

        We’re told in this forum we have to take your word for it. But I’d say that it sounds like there’s a whole other (many?) story… If I take what you’ve relayed at face value it could well be that he’s messed up on how he did the evaluations, and didn’t realise, and has been dragged over the coals for it. He’s had to go back and have this same conversation with everyone on the team and he’s feeling defensive and worn out. (He could well be on notice/PIP over it too.)

        How does this affect you? Well I think it’s fair to ask what you could/should be doing to improve, but you need to pick the right moment for that time. And the right moment is not while this pan is hot and he’s still burning from it. Give it a few weeks. Let things settle. Let him clear his head and work out what’s happening. Who knows … he might not be there in three weeks!

        There’s more to promotion than time served and widgets completed. I’m not sure what sort of work your company does, or your role, but assuming you’ll get a promotion based purely on time served doesn’t seem right. You’ve asked HR and they’ve referred you to your manager – it’s odd that they’d do that. Is any of the following possible? A) There’s no roles to move into – you can’t just create a promotion for someone usually, normally there has to be a vacancy to fill. B) job cuts or restructures are coming and all promotions are on hold (have you seen anything that might suggest this?). C) While you might meet set targets (sales, processing times, functional targets of the job) your attitude or soft skills may not be appropriate for a promotion. D) There may not be clarity between different levels, depending on your job this sort of thing isn’t always documented in a structured way. Seniority usually requires a mix of experience (which may include time spent outside the company in a related role), skills, soft people skills and willingness to be part of the team/work cohesively.

        Another thought is a company that promotes near yearly suggests to me there’s an obscenely high staff turn over and a need to constantly back fill in the entry level ranks (or undergoing crazy year on year growth, which could well be slowing). Is this really a company you want to battle your way through in? Take a strong look around you and work out why people are leaving? Why is there so much promotion? And what will you gain if you ‘move up the ranks’? Is it really worth it? Brushing up your LinkedIn might well be worth exploring, and keeping that manager onside for a reasonable reference could be a good goal.

        1. Miss. Bianca*

          Re: the promotion process. Since Jan I’ve asked him multiple times what the difference is between my level and the senior level, each time he only says “pay”. During his meltdown, I asked what the difference was between the junior level (right below me) vs. my level vs. senior and again he only said “pay”. I replied, “that’s it?”, he exploded “well what do you think they are?!”, I told him similar to what you had above, about increased autonomy, more involved with the higher-ups, more involved with strategy, etc. and he shut me down.

          He doesn’t understand how seniority levels work and he’s clueless about everyone’s actual workload.

          1. Snuck*

            I’d say, without knowing what sort of job role this is, it’s really hard to know … is it possible that this is at this point in time the only difference is pay? I’m thinking something like a cashier/retail clerk, a floor stacker, or a call centre, where the roles are clearly defined and unless there’s an obvious vacancy the chances to ‘move up’ are limited? Then the difference literally could be just pay. The longer you’ve been in the role the more you get paid because there’s an assumption of increased general knowledge about the role, speed at tasks etc – the employee is more competent at these than a new person. I’m wondering if this is the case here? If all three levels are performing the same tasks then there’s probably a different expectation of task volumes or task complexity – but still within the same job description. This fits also with your comment that people get promoted every year – there’s probably a massive staff turnover and the is a need to constantly backfill, and people are ‘promoted’ when they have sufficient knowledge to handle a slightly more complex thing. An example of this (with no idea what your job role is) is in Accounts Payable, where a junior might process standard invoices from long term suppliers, an experienced person might put through new suppliers and non standard invoices, and a senior person might handle out of standard process invoices and amounts over a certain amount. But they all handle accounts, just over time they learn a little more and can do it a little faster and can understand the company policies and processes better.

            It also sounds like you’ve talked to him an awful lot of times about all this – are you asking him multiple times a week about it all? It’s not yet the end of the first week in March and you say you’ve talked to him many times this year, gone to HR and told him you ‘want to go to senior’. Maybe it’s time to back off for a while, I know you are super frustrated but pushing a lot is just backing him into a corner. If he’s also getting cornered on another side he’s going to be getting very frustrated, and while it’s not professional, it’s highly likely that a) he’ll get defensive/angry again, and b) he will do what his seniors want over what you want.

            It also sounds like you are very unhappy – I can feel your anger coming strong through in your comments. Maybe this relationship is irretrievable and it’s time to tee up somethings else?

      6. Snuck*

        We’re told in this forum we have to take your word for it. But I’d say that it sounds like there’s a whole other (many?) story… If I take what you’ve relayed at face value it could well be that he’s messed up on how he did the evaluations, and didn’t realise, and has been dragged over the coals for it. He’s had to go back and have this same conversation with everyone on the team and he’s feeling defensive and worn out. (He could well be on notice/PIP over it too.)

        How does this affect you? Well I think it’s fair to ask what you could/should be doing to improve, but you need to pick the right moment for that time. And the right moment is not while this pan is hot and he’s still burning from it. Give it a few weeks. Let things settle. Let him clear his head and work out what’s happening. Who knows … he might not be there in three weeks!

        There’s more to promotion than time served and widgets completed. I’m not sure what sort of work your company does, or your role, but assuming you’ll get a promotion based purely on time served doesn’t seem right. You’ve asked HR and they’ve referred you to your manager – it’s odd that they’d do that. Is any of the following possible? A) There’s no roles to move into – you can’t just create a promotion for someone usually, normally there has to be a vacancy to fill. B) job cuts or restructures are coming and all promotions are on hold (have you seen anything that might suggest this?). C) While you might meet set targets (sales, processing times, functional targets of the job) your attitude or soft skills may not be appropriate for a promotion. D) There may not be clarity between different levels, depending on your job this sort of thing isn’t always documented in a structured way. Seniority usually requires a mix of experience (which may include time spent outside the company in a related role), skills, soft people skills and willingness to be part of the team/work cohesively.

        Another thought is a company that promotes near yearly suggests to me there’s an obscenely high staff turn over and a need to constantly back fill in the entry level ranks (or undergoing crazy year on year growth, which could well be slowing). Is this really a company you want to battle your way through in? Take a strong look around you and work out why people are leaving? Why is there so much promotion? And what will you gain if you ‘move up the ranks’? Is it really worth it? Brushing up your LinkedIn might well be worth exploring, and keeping that manager onside for a reasonable reference could be a good goal.

    2. Anon for now*

      I don’t have it in me to be all nice and smiley with someone who did that to me.

      You absolutely do not have to do that. Neutral and even cold civility is sufficient. You don’t need to smile at him or start (or remain in) chitchat type conversations. A natural consequence of his behavior is that people will not want to talk to him. That’s okay. I have a manager with behavioral issues and I even have a sticky note on my computer reminding myself “say as little as possible to Fergus.” I keep my face a flat as possible with him and my tone neutral when we do need to interact. Do what you need to protect yourself from his nonsense while you work on getting out.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        This +1000. Just be professional and neutrally pleasant and GTFO.
        Living well is the best revenge!

    3. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      “How am I even supposed to speak to this man going forward?”

      Just don’t. Find a new job and give yourself the promotion and raise you know you deserve. This man has nothing to do with your life outside of this job. So get rid of the job, get rid of the man.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I’m glad you held your ground. That’s hard to do in the face of that kind of reaction. It’s totally on him that he isn’t able to justify either the high scores for everyone or the medium scores for everyone. While I’m shocked and impressed that he apologized fairly quickly and seemingly without prompting, that doesn’t excuse his inability to give you actionable feedback or a clear path to promotion. The ability to apologize, while good, doesn’t make up for all his failings as a manager. It definitely sounds like he’s been overpromoted beyond his abilities and now it’s really showing.

      I worked in an internship where the coordinator controlling my pay reacted this way when I asked for a raise due to receiving my advanced degree while I was working there. He snapped at me that I should know I was already being paid well and should be grateful, etc. etc. when of course there was no way of knowing that because there was no pay transparency. He never apologized but he also never acted out against me again (likely because I gave him no reason) and the very few meetings I had to have with him before I left, I was scrupulously polite and kept my answers concise without being terse. He lost all my respect that day, but I don’t think he ever knew that.

      BTW, we all got that “3/5 is a very good score” lecture every year at my previous company, which subscribed to the rank/stack method of demotivating employees. I got consistent 4s from all of my managers *except* the one who had promotion authority, and of course there was just the “stay the course, you’re doing well!” kind of feedback rather than anything useful to apply. Having no clear path and no actionable feedback for three years finally pushed me to get out.

      2. Cj*

        Agree that the way the coordinator spoke to you makes them as add. But I’m curious – is it normal to get a raise when you are an intern?

        At least in my experience, they are generally only a few months long, and I don’t see where getting your advanced degree in the middle of it would be of much value to the company, unless you were actually able to use it in the duties they assign an intern.

        I don’t mean that to sound snarky, and I apologize if that’s how it came out. I’m genuinely curious as to how that would usually work.

    5. Super Duper Anon*

      The bad meeting with his boss and the CEO was just a cover excuse. He got nasty and combative because he was embarrassed about being caught being lazy and clueless. My suggestions:
      – Drop getting review feedback completely. He is not going to improve, he is not going to give you feedback, he is probably hoping you forget about it by the time you do reviews again.
      – Stay neutral. You don’t have to be happy and smile, but don’t let your anger show either.
      – Interact only when you need to. Let him know about issues that affect you and other team members where not doing so could get you in trouble (like deadlines are going to be missed on a project, for example) but assume he isn’t going to advocate for you or help fix bigger issues.
      -Apply for other stuff and get out when you can :)

      1. Cold Fish*

        Is there any way to go back to HR and/or Bosses Boss and tell them you’ve asked several times what you need to do to advance but manager won’t even tell you the difference between Llama Analyst and Senior Llama Analyst, has admitted several times that he doesn’t take the performance reviews seriously, and it is starting to effect you’re view as the company as a whole.

        As for manager, just try and keep your interactions professionally, that’s all. When my companies Owner pissed me off, I posted a picture on my wall that is not offensive at all (think a picture of a donkey) but it reminds me every time I see it that company won’t go to bat for me so why should I go to bat for company.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, I would be sorely tempted to go back to HR with exact quotes in response to your question.

          I agree that he is very embarrassed. Instead of just saying, “I am working on this and it will be a couple weeks then I will have an answer.”, he is dwelling on how this looks and how this damages his rep. He could, you know, just focus and learn what he needs to learn. But that is not what he has chosen.

          You could also request a meeting with him and HR or if you really feel like giving him a kick in the butt HR, him and his boss. I’d be very careful about the latter choice and probably would not do it.

          I would point out to HR that if people cannot get promoted [in this department/in this company] then what is the incentive for new hires to start working at your department/company?

          I am almost thinking with him being so rattled and you say that previously you had a good relationship, that something else is going on and this is the tip of the iceberg. I suspect his big bosses are very angry over something he did but it’s not about the performance evals. If I am correct, then you might be getting a new boss in the future.

          Think about it though, your boss tells you that you did a poor job on your evals. Would you go to this level of meltdown? If you were reprimanding an employee for doing a poor job on evals of his employees would you melt down the way the big boss(es?) did? It’s not a crime against humanity for pete’s sake, it’s an eval that can be redone. I would be very surprised to find out nothing else is going on here.

          1. Miss. Bianca*

            “I am almost thinking with him being so rattled and you say that previously you had a good relationship, that something else is going on and this is the tip of the iceberg. I suspect his big bosses are very angry over something he did but it’s not about the performance evals.”

            This is a good point. I had assumed the CEO being there meant something about them being upset with meeting company goals (meaning new customer goals, forecast/budgets, finances, etc.), but now I wonder…but I think if it was putting him on a PIP or something else he’s in trouble for, why HR wasn’t there.

      2. Cj*

        Maybe he did actually had a bad meeting with them, and it was about his being a bad manager. Hence the skip level meeting that was scheduled with the OP.

        1. Miss. Bianca*

          Maybe, but it was probably about budgets and meeting revenue goals or something that mattered to the high-ups lol. Although, I *think* he meets with his boss before me, so why was the CEO there? Before I was thinking it was a meeting for something with revenue, but that’s an interesting thought.

          His boss told our team, probably more than a month ago, he wanted to schedule skip level intro meetings with all of us, and he sent out my invite in the period between my boss’s hissyfit and apology. But hmm, maybe there is something going on.

    6. I was told there would be llamas*

      I have no advice…I think you handled it the best way possible. You asked multiple times for examples AND gave him a heads up that you were going to ask again…there’s NO reason for him not to be prepared to explain what you need to do to get from a 3 to a 5 when you’ve given him a heads up. Do you have skip level 1:1s at your company?

      1. Miss. Bianca*

        It’s funny, I actually just had a skip level after I posted this, with his boss who joined the company a few months ago.

        It actually went well. He explained the 3’s vs 5’s in a context for the organizational setting. Not specific for me, but it was more information than I’ve gotten. He also talked about how he sent a professional development plan template to my boss and asked if my boss sent the plan to me, which he hadn’t. He also asked about career goals. He came off as very transparent and that he has his shit together.

        I’m still going to update my LinkedIn/resume, because my boss has made it clear he doesn’t care and (a) I don’t want to work with someone like that (b) it’s hurting the entire department that he’s in charge of us all. But I’m more hopeful now that we have a grandboss who knows what he’s doing, however, my boss might take his frustrations out on us

        1. JustForThis*

          Is it possible that your boss might be managed out by your grandboss? It seems that it becomes apparent to grandboss that boss is not doing a good job. So it may be worth waiting it out if you otherwise like your work environment.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          The big boss was pleasant with you. This makes me believe even more that there is something else going on here.
          BTW, I kind of thought that if you talked to a big boss you’d get a different feel for what is going on.

    7. Kes*

      You don’t have to be smiley, but it’s in your own interest to remain polite and professional with him, not just in his. Taking the higher ground will uphold your good reputation (not just with him, but with your coworkers) as well as preserving the reference. I would channel your frustration instead into the search for a new position

    8. Workerbee*

      Echoing others to go ahead and focus energies on getting the heck out. Not only is your boss not a good manager or leader, but that whole rating system is so crappy. I have suffered through these and similar before. Even a “good” boss can’t often get around that, especially with what sounds like ridiculousness coming down from leadership.

      (I was delighted when my old org finally tacitly admitted that they really weren’t making decisions based on any of that “data” anyway, and just went straight to a “Here’s the % we’re working with, here’s the % allotted to your department, if you want to put in for more for somebody, you can, otherwise, cost-of-living + any overage if we had a good year.” I mean, that has its own pitfalls, but the suffering & stress over all the useless paperwork and assigning numbers was at least gone.)

    9. Green Goose*

      Wow, what a jerk! I’m so impressed that you held your ground in such an awkward situation. This reminds me of a LW from years ago who kept trying to get an official JD (which is a very normal thing to ask for) and her manager got more and more agitated and then one day grabbed the LW by the wrist and basically hissed that they needed to stop asking.

      Are you comfortable relaying what happened to HR, and do it in a faux-confused way. “My manager had given me a 5/5 on my most recent review and I asked about a potential promotion based on my 5/5. Manager then said he ‘made a mistake’ and changed my score to 3/5. I was very confused about this and asked for examples of why my score changed from 5/5 to a 3/5 on [date 1] and [date 2] and was not provided information. Then at our check-in on [date 3] I asked for more information about my score and he became agitated and said “I’m about to be frustrated” which made me quite concerned. Is there a different person I should be asking this information from?” I’d be tempted to also mention that he admitted that he did not take the process seriously and only changed your score after you asked about a promotion.

      Hopefully you can get out soon, but I bet if he is treating you this way, there are others or will be others in the future.

  4. GTFO my kitchen*

    Does anyone have any success stories for work projects with too many cooks in the kitchen? Either shutting down the meddling or just emotionally detaching?

    I’m on a project approaching an important review. The review is soon enough that we just need to execute on plans in flight and hope for the best. There are only three engineers, including me, directly working on it, but five managers all want to “help” contribute “ideas” on how to improve the project. I’m mentally and emotionally exhausted from SIX meetings over the last two weeks with these needy managers — and these are in addition to the two weekly meetings where my project gives updates to an audience that includes all these managers (which of course several of them regularly skip).

    I don’t know if it’s about appearing smart or helpful or what but it’s like asking the captain of the Titanic “hey what if we changed the hull design, look I drew a picture and I think this could be much better” while the last rowboats are about to pull away. ARGHHH.

    1. adminatlarge*

      No success stories, but commiseration. It’s so easy for someone to say, “hey, why don’t we do x,” and then they get to walk away – proud of their “contribution” while someone else has to do all the actual work.

    2. Alice*

      Any chance of putting them off? To just tell them any changes now are a risk that may make you miss the deadline? This is an interesting idea, why don’t we circle back to this after the review?

      I’ve had some success just telling meddlesome people that I could guarantee the current plan would give us a result, but any changes now were a risk. Especially when framing it as “I’m not shutting down your stupid idea that I’m sure you spent a whole 5 minutes on, just moving it to the future and hoping you’ll forget by then”.

      Aside from that, the only solution is emotional detachment. I’ve delivered many a mediocre project with the knowledge that I’d done my best with the constraints given…

    3. TechGirlSupervisor*

      Not sure how time is tracked at your company, but one way I combat this sort of thing is to setup a tracking/charge code for meetings and make everyone log to it. Once you can point at the numbers that show how much time is wasted in meetings vs actual productivity by the doers, it gets serious.

      Another technique is to just stop going to the meetings, block off your calendar and generally be “unavailable”. Highly dependent on how likely it is you can get away with this sort of thing.

      My final piece of advise is to have one (hopefully) final meeting where you lay out the critical path of the work and directly ask all these managers which piece they would like to slip to implement their newest ideas. Make them own the slippage if they want it so badly. My job as a technical leader is to provide a solution and an estimate of the work, PMs get to decide what work they want done based on business needs. It’s their call, not yours, if the project slips, so make it their call, explicitly.

    4. Eng Proj Mgr*

      One trick that sometimes works is to put the effort back on them. Say something like this:
      “That is a great idea, can you expand on it in a more actionable set of ideas and steps so the team could put a some timing to it to see if it will fit within the scope of the project?”
      Basically return to sender but with a simple request of more detail broken down. Lot’s of time those what about this have just a basic idea and then expect other to fill in the blanks. Push back on them to fill in the blanks and then it all goes away.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I do this too. It works beautifully to make bad ideas go away. If they come back, “hey, I was waiting for your list of changes before I proceeded.” “Oh yeah, I’ll get to that.” And it fades away…

    5. Ashley*

      Use any deadlines to your advantage. Detaching is much easier when you role isn’t a leader and just a player, but if you are held responsible for the results it can just be frustrating. Try to keep things focused on suggestions that impact you the most and voice issues as that arises. Good luck trying to get out of a meeting or two or at least get them to be shorter.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      Ugh. I’ve worked on projects with executives and they use every meeting as a brainstorming session rather than planning or making decisions. They just want to hear themselves think out loud. I’ve developed a short fuze for it and now I pretty much throw the project back at them.
      “If you would like to change the direction of this project, you can discuss it amongst yourselves and get back to me when you have made your decisions and are ready to move forward. In the meantime, the project will be put on hold and we will move forward with other work.”
      Either they focus, or they say they really do want to rethink it but they never do and the project drops.

    7. Not that Leia*

      I have similar experiences. What has worked for me:
      Have the meeting, listen attentively, then just…ignore what’s not useful. Most of the time with that kind of feedback, there’s not ever really any follow through. That has tended to be easier and ruffles less feathers than trying to make a point or actually change behavior. (Even if that is warranted.) I also try to be a buffer between team and outside management so at least it’s just my time being sucked up.
      Bonus if there is anything small or discrete that you CAN incorporate, then if it ever comes up, you can highlight their “help” and counter any complaints about not listening.
      I have also tried preemptively asking for specific help that WOULD be useful (like working through a knotty technical question), but that only works if the manager person in question has the capacity to be useful in production.

    8. tessa*

      I wonder what’s going on with unnecessarily hostile profile names showing up here, seemingly suddenly.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Who leads the meetings?

      What are the company guidelines for how groups should make decisions?

    10. Orora*

      If you find any of those answers, let me know. I work in academia. Our tenured faculty LOVE to give suggestions on administrative projects, but don’t attend the informational sessions, read the emails or participate in the committees on these projects. When I brought up how frustrating this was to an outside advisor (a senior faculty member at another higher ed institution) yesterday, this was the answer I got: “Some ideas that would make a positive contribution to the mission of XYZ Organization, they [the faculty] would prefer to engage in “how can we make this work” discussion, rather than just hearing that “this is not possible”. Even if at times, some of these are not possible despite the positive potential.” So, even if something is illegal, immoral, unethical or otherwise simply not possible, I’m still supposed to have meetings about it and give consideration to it? What a colossal waste of everyone’s time.

    11. BeetleCat*

      One strategy I’ve seen used on projects I’ve been on that is effective at redirecting tons of extraneous ideas or input is reminding folks of the difference between the “would be *nice* to have” goals/targets list and the “what we NEED to have” list. That, followed with asking people to think critically about the capacity of the project team members to accomplish that NEED list usually means people recognize pretty quickly that a lot of the “nice to have” list items aren’t actually feasible to accomplish with the given team/timeline. Maybe if that can be accomplished in a meeting with at least some of the needy managers present, you could then email a summary of the agreed-upon targets to everyone, reiterating the capacity side of things? Depends on how much leadership capital you have though to make those decisions I suppose.

    12. anonymath*

      I work in a similar environment but am a manager. I saw the effect of the meetings with needy stakeholders and worked with a colleague to cancel all the meetings, including the weekly updates. Can you recruit a manager to do this for you? Phrases:
      “We are re-assessing our meeting cadence and will restart after establishing new metrics.”
      “We’re carrying out a meeting audit and want to consolidate to once a week.”
      “As we approach the deadline I want to give the team heads-down time to work.”
      “We’re approaching a critical execution phase and need to free up engineer time.”

      Things to point out: ratio of “stakeholders” to “do-ers” — when you point it out (we have five VPs and two engineers in this biweekly meeting!). Changing goals based on continuous input.

      People just want to stay in the loop and look helpful, feel like they’re contributing. But good management is not about making all the other managers *feel useful*, it’s about getting the work accomplished, no? So who is going to look worst when this project fails, and can you get them to cut the meetings and manage the feelings?

    13. Snuck*

      These extra meetings -are they trying to change the course of the project? Or just needing extra hand holding and extra attention along the way?

      If they are trying to change the course of hte project then I’d nix the meetings, and get stakeholder sign off formally on each element that needs it. Say something like “So we can meet the next target gate we need to sign off on final decisions now, and make sure that we’re all working. Then any changes after this will need to come through as post implementation changes, unless they are agreed to by all the stakeholders/reach an agreed critical mass. We need to lock the specifications of this down now if we are to make launch date and embargo changes.” And get everyone to formally agree in a meeting this is the agreed final specification, and proceed. Then if they try to change it say “you need to get stakeholders x y and z to agree, and they will need to understand this will push launch of product out by ## days and delay testing a further three, plus cost $$ in overtime.”

      If it’s attention seeking… work out why. Ponder this – are they the marketing types who need lots of pretty pictures and happy messaging to feel like they are getting the message, and hate hard data (find it dull)? I’ve worked with teams that have a clash of these two styles – soft marketing types and hard data. I used to grin internally and provide the same update information to both, but do it in two meetings. In the soft marketing people meeting (gosh full diaries can let you grab select people sometimes!) I’d do the warm fuzzy stuff, with the hard data glossed over and provided as an addendum. For the hard data people I’d give them more data, and addendum the communication messages etc. Consider tailoring your two weekly meetings to focus more on one then the other? Instead of everyone sitting around meetings maybe set an agenda for one that is “Review outstanding action items across entire project, review marketing and communications, review dates and slippages, review user experience requirements” and the other “Review outstanding actions items across the entire project, review coding and bug testing, review dates and slippages, review system and storage capacity, review specification updates.” Then people can come to one or other, but only come to both if they have a foot in each pie.

      Then schedule (control the time!) meetings to provide releases of information after key set dates in your project, cheerily say “Yes, we’re in mad slog mode now, but just before we finalise requirements we’ll have a general round table meeting for everyone to review and finalise – I’d rather have everyone at that one so we don’t miss conflicts or data issues m’kay” when someone suggests another meeting to you.

      And budget? Bump that to whomever is paying for it all. Push some of it back to your ‘stakeholders’ who need to manage their minions.

  5. bubbleon*

    Question for the commentariat about benefits. I started a new job recently and in my offer letter was told that “comprehesive benefits include [Plan] Medical, Dental, and Vision with multiple coverage options.” I definitely should have done some more digging and asked to see the plan, but I was super excited about the opportunity and desperate to leave OldJob.
    I’ve now been here long enough to enroll in coverage and find that NewJob and I share the cost of the plans. Insurance was fully covered at OldJob, so I honestly hadn’t even considered it, but reading the offer letter back it still reads to me like this would be fully covered. Am I just clueless and the assumption should have been that it would be split?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I would assume that coverage would be partially the responsibility of the employee. There are very few employers in the US who do 100% coverage of premiums.

      1. anon e mouse*

        Yes, agreed. I have had about 5 jobs that offered insurance and 2 of them were 100%-employer paid (for employee, spouse and dependent coverage was shared), and I suspect 40% is very much on the high side in terms of how many employers offer this in reality.

      3. CatCat*

        Agreed. I think the default is that the employee also pays toward premiums. Definitely something to ask about in the future.

        A job that covered 100% of premiums would likely advertise that because it is not typical and could be very attractive in a competitive job marketplace.

      4. Laney Boggs*

        I turned down a job that paid 100% of the “base” insurance. I have regrets as I enter my first full year of paying my own insurance

        (Turned 26 mid-last-year after 25 years of my dads excellent state health insurance. I also front loaded all my yearly appointments so it was still his lol)

      5. Clisby*

        I think that’s true. My husband’s employer covers 100% of the premium for our family plan, which is great. The CPA who does our taxes tells me that’s pretty uncommon. (Not uncommon to cover 100% of the employee’s premium, but definitely uncommon to cover all of the premium for a family of 4.)

    2. lost academic*

      Nothing you wrote suggests that you would get fully covered insurance options (especially since they reference multiple coverage options) to my understanding and that’s a really great perk. HR would have been immediately able to share with you the cost options. I think you should absolutely have asked to get clarification and used that in your negotiation because it represents a benefits and pay cut. Maybe that wouldn’t have changed your decision but you’d know more clearly.

    3. Harried HR*

      Most employer share benefits cost with employees particularly smaller employers. Employers that cover 100 % of benefits are a rare breed.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Not clueless but maybe… inexperienced? I’ve never had a job where insurance was covered in full, so I would never make that assumption. But in your shoes, maybe.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      My employer covers 100% for the employee but the employee pays for any spouses or kids. I get the impression, though, that this has become an uncommon situation and in workplaces in general I think I would expect to split the cost.

      2. Cranky Lady*

        This has been my experience in many places (in the US)…employee fully covered on the cheapest plan but upgrading plans or adding dependents costs extra. But I’ve also worked primarily in non-profits or related industries.

    6. Cat Mouse*

      It sounds like the benefits available would cover a wide range of medical needs (elective surgery for example, orthodontics, procedures not always included in plans) and there are multiple plan levels to choose from. That wording doesn’t read like the employee would cover the full cost of the plan. I think it’s a safe assumption that cost would be split.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yes, this is what I read into it as well. My employer covers most of our plan costs, but the employees also pay a portion of it, deducted from our paychecks every pay period. That has been the case everywhere I’ve worked since I first got a job with actual medical benefits.

      2. doreen*

        I would assume the cost would be split, especially since multiple plans are offered. The one job I had where I could have gotten fully paid insurance only fully paid for one plan and if you wanted one of the others they offered, you paid the difference. I think you read “comprehensive benefits” to mean it was fully employer-paid, but in my experience that’s a description of the benefits themselves. Plenty of benefit plans don’t include dental or vision for example.

    7. insurance*

      yeah, that’s pretty normal and the assumption should’ve been that it’d be split. your last company went above and beyond. hopefully they’re not too expensive.

    8. Decidedly Me*

      My assumption is always that I will be paying something unless it specifies fully covered. Benefits including health, dental, and vision doesn’t read to me as the premiums being covered, just that they offer those plans.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yep. This. I do appreciate when companies I’m interviewing at give me a breakdown of employee costs, though!

    9. bubbleon*

      Lesson learned I guess! I was at oldjob a loooooooooooooooooong time so I never even considered that they, who were doing the bare minimum everywhere else, were doing us a favor there. It definitely isn’t a dealbreaker now, just a wrinkle. Thanks all!

      1. lost academic*

        It’s an important wrinkle especially if your situation grows in complexity which is pretty much a given as anyone ages, even without considering spouse or dependent coverage. It doesn’t have to be a dealbreaker, but even going to different plans with different coverage, deductible, you name it – you need to be able to compare your coverage and your exact out of pocket costs before you finalize a negotiation.

    10. Littorally*

      To me, “multiple coverage options” is the cue that the premiums are not fully paid by the employer, because what that means is that you will have the choice between good/expensive coverage, possibly middling/middling coverage, and bad/cheap coverage. If the company is footing 100% of the premium, everyone would just pick the good coverage and be done with it.

      1. bubbleon*

        I guess, but OldJob offered multiple coverage options too (basically the same as these) and everyone had different coverage for different reasons.

      2. ANon*

        In my experience, it used to mean that, but in the past decade it’s come to mean you get a choice between a high deductible plan and a co-pay based plan. The high deductible plan will be cheaper but also means you have to pay thousands out of pocket before the insurance kicks in.

        1. Littorally*

          But if you’re not paying the premiums, why would you opt for the cheaper, high-deductible plan?

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Presumably ANon like most American employees IS paying a share of the premiums.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            A few possibilities:
            They offer multiple plans and the only one covered 100% is the cheap high deductible one. The others you pay the difference. (My last 3, all in the US, employers have all had 1 option where the employee does not pay any of the premiums. The other options were all considered “buy up” plans.)
            The high deductible plan may have a different network, or different out-of-network coverage, so even if both plans have no direct cost to you, if you have a specialist you don’t want to leave who wouldn’t otherwise be covered, you pick the one that gets you some coverage for that specialist.
            Other details of what is or isn’t covered that differs between the offered plans.

    11. AnonAnon*

      I’m assuming you’re in the US? I think you don’t necessarily have to call yourself clueless, but it would be good to know from now on that there’s a range in how employers handle health insurance coverage contributions. I’ve only worked for large organizations, and there were typically 3 options (or 3 tiers) for employees to choose from: an option for no additional employee contribution, a middle option, and a “high-end” option. In my experience, typically the no-additional contribution option had a higher deductible and more out of pocket expenses, but while the high-end option asks for more employee contribution up front, it also offers lower deductibles and lower out of pocket expenses. Personally I always took the high-end option. So yes, asking to see the plan before accepting the job would be a good idea. The plan offered may or may not be a deal breaker but it would be good not to be caught off guard in any case.

    13. I was told there would be llamas*

      And I’m the opposite…I had no clue that there were companies that covered 100%! If a company covers 100%, I would expect they would mention this multiple times (now that I know it’s a thing!)

    14. Lady Danbury*

      I’ve never had a job that covered insurance fully, in both the US and HomeCountry. I know that some places do, but that’s def the exception, not the norm.

    15. ArtK*

      The norm everywhere I’ve worked is this: Company covers part of the premiums. The remaining part is deducted (pre-tax) from my paycheck. I’m responsible out-of-pocket for: Copays, deductibles, and the difference between what the insurance pays the provider and what the provider charges. A company that covers 100% of health care costs is a unicorn as far as I can tell.

      My current plan is a High Deductible plan with an HSA. Extra money is taken (again pre-tax) out of my paycheck and put into a special account that I can use to pay for the things that aren’t paid for otherwise. Given that the family deductible was $4500 last year, that was a big help. BTW, I work for a Fortune 10 company.

    16. BRR*

      I wouldn’t say the assumption should have been that it would be split but you should always ask for further details about the insurance. Not only the premium but what the plan covers. The insurance at my last job was fully covered but the copays were higher than my current insurance, which I have to pay part of.

      I think it’s pretty stupid for job postings to only say a benefit is “we offer insurance” though. That means basically nothing. Job posting should provide a lot more details on benefits.

  6. Millie Mayhem*

    We’ve been working on filling a key role at my organization for the past two months and have had difficulty finding the right person. We had one candidate who we were pretty interested in, however it’s been a bit of a challenge to nail her down for interviews. This candidate is currently working full time, and I’m aware her job is demanding and keeps her busy; however, in all the back and forth with her, we’re feeling that she isn’t all that enthusastic about this position. She would often reply and say “I’ll get back to you about this tomorrow,” and then I wouldn’t hear from her for several more days.

    While waiting to hear back from this candidate, we scheduled and had a successful interview with a contractor. This person would be able to fill in for the next few months, but is not a longterm solution. However, she’s available to start immediately, and we have a huge project that we’d like her help on. We’re inclined to bring her on and re-post this position again in a couple months towards the end of her contract.

    I spoke with my boss, and we’d like to go back to the other candidate and let her know we are no longer interested. She had e-mailed me back yestesrday in response to a request I sent her regarding her availability for an in person interview. In her e-mail, she asked if I could call her to get this scheduled (which is also kind of weird, as I asked her to e-mail me her availability). Would it be rude to e-mail her back and let her know we no longer want to move forward? Or would this warrant a phone call?

    1. hamsterpants*

      If you have trouble nailing her down for interviews then to me that suggests that it would be hard to nail her down for a phone call, too, right? I vote for an email. At this stage a phone call would not be an offer, so if you ask to call she’ll probably guess what it means anyway so it’s not like a phone call will let her down more gently.

    2. Sloanicote*

      Yeah just tell her you’ve found another candidate and wish her good luck. I find holding on for that wishy-washy person never works. They don’t take the job in the end or they leave right away. Hire the one who seems eager to start.

    3. lost academic*

      If you’re still interested in this candidate and you’re just going to go with a contractor for a short term, there’s no reason to burn the bridge with the candidate unless the back and forth has ruled her out enough to do so. It doesn’t cost you anything to continue talking to her.

      1. Snuck*

        Agree!

        I would try to ring her! She’s letting you know email isn’t working for her. I’m not sure where you are emailing her but if it’s her personal one she might not be (probably shouldn’t be!) checking that during office hours, and sometimes we have crazy busy lives out of work (kids, families, dogs, the universe) so things get dropped. They shouldn’t, but we don’t know what is happening.

        I have no idea what her job role is currently, but she’s saying the best way to contact her is via telephone, so do that. You can do a soft screen call with her, ask her about her interest in the role, ask her why she’s looking to move on, her availability, and provide her with salary range and confirm it meets her expectations. If she comes across as a good candidate after that schedule an interview within 48 hours and explain you have another strong candidate available immediately and want to move forward. She then has to work out how she’s going to make that work (particularly as it’s seems its’ taken longer than a week? To get ahold of her, so the onus is on her to be a bit more available right now). Consider an out of office hours interview if that’s all she can wrangle, but schedule it soon. Tell the contractor you are keen but just finalising another applicant and can tell her in 3 days. Then… work it through fast, in three days.

        If the phone call shows you that the commitment just isn’t there, or she cannot interview for various reasons for a week etc I’d just go with the contractor now, and explain to the applicant that you are sorry, but this is a time sensitive appointment right now, but you are confident you’ll have another opening in a couple of months and if she’d like to keep talking with you and be considered for that one then would that be ok? And see what happens.

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Have any of the interview times you’ve offered her been outside normal working hours? It’s really hard to interview for jobs when you’re employed full time because hardly anyone will offer an early morning, evening, or weekend interview date, and it’s even worse when the job you’re trying to leave is so busy you can’t carve out any time.

    5. social work data nerd*

      I think an e-mail is fine and I would say something like “our plans for filling this position as posted at this time have changed. We may repost at a later time. Best of luck with your job search.”

    6. tessa*

      If she is this flaky at the pre-interview stage, imagine what she’d be like at work.

      I’d go with the contractor and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.

      1. Mouse*

        I don’t think this is necessarily fair. She may be looking to leave her job because she’s severely overworked and not willing to risk her current job security for a possible new job. I agree that at this point OP should move on, but I don’t think this is definitely an indicator of how she would be as an employee.

        1. Cj*

          I agree that her being extremely busy at her current job good affect her ability to interview, particularly during normal business hours. But her saying she would respond to your email tomorrow, and then doesn’t respond for several days can certainly be viewed as “flaky”.

          Would she be flaky and a new position? Maybe not. Maybe she’s been flaky with the job interviews, etc. so that she is not flaky about keeping on top of her work at her current position and would be a great employee.

        2. anonymous73*

          I wouldn’t call her flaky, but I would say she’s unreliable, and whether that would translate to the new job we don’t know. But would you be willing to take that chance? Even if you’re busy at your current job, you can’t expect the company that’s doing the hiring to make all of the compromises and hunt you down for an interview. That’s sure to be a one way ticket to nowheresville.

        3. tessa*

          That could be true, but “…in all the back and forth with her, we’re feeling that she isn’t all that enthusiastic about this position. She would often reply and say ‘I’ll get back to you about this tomorrow,’ and then I wouldn’t hear from her for several more days.”

          I’d move on no matter what, because that isn’t a first great impression, at all.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            One of the most useful things I remember Alison saying about somebody who was an iffy candidate was something like, “This is what they’re like at the interview stage, where most people are trying to come across at their best. If you’re not happy with them now, you probably won’t be when they’re settled down and trying less hard to impress you either.”

            Even if this candidate is overworked and all that, she’s supposedly trying to come across well if this really *is* a job she’s interested in. (And if not, the OP’s gut feeling that she’s not all that enthusiastic about this job is correct.) If she says she’ll get back to you tomorrow and you don’t hear from her for several days, then either she’s not actually that interested in this job, or she is interested and she’s like that even when she’s trying hard to impress. Neither one sounds like a candidate I would want to have work for me.

    7. Ashley*

      If by a few months you are really just talking 2-3 I would keep the posting and still follow-up with any candidates that apply. By the time all the background, reference check, and notice periods this person may not start for that long even with a decision in a few weeks.
      If this is a really strong candidate and not an entry level position I would give them the benefit of the doubt and try to accommodate them, but talk about it during the interview regarding their availability. This is 2022 where daycares are not always open and as people keep switching jobs those left sometimes are really feeling the work load and trying to balance everything.

    8. Hiring Mgr*

      This isn’t a direct answer to your question, but if the new person is just there for a couple of months, why cut ties with the first one when you’ve said you’ve had a hard time finding good candidates?

      If it’s truly a key role and you’re hurting for good people, I wouldn’t hold some scheduling difficulties against them. Plus it doesnt’ sound like they’ve been rude or missed an interview, just going at a slightly different pace from you..

    9. Lady Danbury*

      It’s totally fine to email her, especially since she’s been hard to get on the phone.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion, so FWIW. This is a person who either can’t prioritize/control their scheduling or this is a person who can’t say no even when pressed.

      I’ve seen it here where people prefer to be told “no thanks” in a email. This allows them a moment to collect themselves, where phoning does not. Put it in email and be done with it.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      Fascinating. This candidate is treating you the way employers usually treat candidates.

  7. Resenting my boss*

    We’ve had several posts here in the last few weeks about how hard things are for working parents, and they always make me feel like such a miserable Scrooge. I guess I’m here for a gut check and some advice on how to stop feeling resentful.

    Here’s the situation. I work for Sam, whose partner travels a lot for work. This means that when one of the kids is sick or the school is closed, Sam is frequently the only person available to take care of the situation. We’re a customer-facing government office, so very little of our work can be done from home and I’m the person most of Sam’s work falls on when they’re out of the office. I’ve stepped up and done what was needed, and Sam’s bosses have expressed their gratitude and told me they’re impressed by my capabilities.

    But now we’re severely understaffed. About half of our positions are currently vacant and we’re still required to cover all of our normal hours, including evenings and weekends. This month, Sam enrolled the kids in an evening and weekend sports league, effectively taking themself out of the evening and weekend rotation. I’m working twice as many weekend shifts as usual this month and they’re scheduled for none at all.

    I don’t want Sam’s kids to have a miserable life with no fun and no sports, but I’m so exhausted and overwhelmed all the time and I’m really mad at Sam for putting me in this position. I know being a working parent is hard, and being a working parent whose spouse is rarely around to help is even harder, but this is hard for me too and I don’t know what to do with these feelings.

    1. Sloanicote*

      I think separate your anger at the company, for not hiring enough staff, versus Sam, who presumably didn’t do anything wrong. If the company can’t address your workload, job search; don’t feel obliged to care more than they do. Draw your own lines in the sand about availability – they’re unlikely to fire you. And taking on tasks for people who are pulling back due to other obligations is often a road for raises and promotions for you – if you’re not getting those, see my second sentence.

    2. hamsterpants*

      This is a problem with your company’s staffing, not with Sam. Sam has drawn their personal boundaries and let the professional chips fall where they may. You should do the same.

      1. Cj*

        I’m not so sure. If all employees are expected to work at least some evenings and weekends, and Sam intentionally took himself out of that rotation by signing his kids up for optional sports. I think it is partly a Sam problem.

        The difference between that and the kids being sick is the fact that this is optional for Sam. If you have a partner that travels I can’t take the kids to practice and games, and your job requires you to work the evenings and weekends when these events take place, then it may just be something your kids can’t do right now.

        1. Anon for this one*

          It would be uncharitable for me to suggest that Sam might have intentionally picked the evening and weekend commitment for the kids specifically in order to get out of it. Sam is presumably feeling the burnout as well.

          1. Cj*

            I guess I probably worded that wrong. While I realize it sounded that way, I didn’t mean that he was (necessarily) trying to get out of those shifts by signing the kids up for sports. I meant “intentional” as in intentionally scheduling things for those times, as opposed to unintentionally not being able to work because the kids are sick.

        3. Purple Cat*

          It’s not “resenting’s” problem with Sam if he’s not working his required shifts.
          That’s Management’s problem with Sam.
          Just like dumping all of the missing shifts on Resenting is also management’s problem – and that’s who they should be mad at.

    3. Yarrow*

      I know it’s easy to blame Sam for this, emotionally but I think you know intellectually that this is your employers’ fault for having these positions vacant for now. Maybe shifting the blame in your head will help dissipate the resentment or at least place it where it belongs. If you employer were able to hire more staff, it wouldn’t be so hard for everyone.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        The key line: “customer-facing government office” may mean that no hiring is possible.
        Despite that, it still isn’t Sam’s fault, and you’ll have to decide if the situation is still tolerable.

        1. Chaordic One*

          A lot of the time additional hiring is possible, but for a variety of reasons, they aren’t attracting qualified candidates. Low wages, a cumbersome application process (think USAJobs-dot-com), poor training, odd work hours, not making hiring (or even retaining) a priority, etc, etc.

    4. Harried HR*

      Repeat as Needed…
      I’m unavailable to cover that (shift, project additional workload)

      This needs to be a Manager problem NOT a you problem.

      The reason you are unavailable is irrelevant (childcare or a netflix binge session)

      The issue is with Management and the way the work load is distributed not the fact that your co-worker has kids.

      1. Antilles*

        It’s also a Management issue because apparently they’re cool with Sam just unilaterally deciding to opt out of the weekend/evening shifts? That really isn’t how this should work.

        1. Clisby*

          Yes.
          “Sam enrolled the kids in an evening and weekend sports league, effectively taking themself out of the evening and weekend rotation. I’m working twice as many weekend shifts as usual this month and they’re scheduled for none at all.”

          If Sam can just opt out of weekend work, so can the OP.

      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        Sam is the manager (OP of the thread says that they “work for Sam”) and in that sense I think it’s more of an issue with a manager making themselves unavailable than it would be for a ‘standard’ employee. Part of the remit of management, and why it’s typically paid more, is the responsibility of being on the hook for things like coverage issues. Sam is just letting that fall to their staff at the moment.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      This is fundamentally an employer problem but, yes, I commiserate with you about Sam taking themself out of availability when they presumably know about the understaffing and that you, primarily, will have to take up the slack. Sam still has the right to do this and it’s still your employer’s problem–and you apparently need to make sure it’s your employer’s problem so they don’t get lazy and just let you drown–but I’d be privately miffed and thinking of taking up evening pottery classes, too.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I’d be privately miffed too. I’d be a lot more sympathetic toward Sam’s mandatory absences (sick kids, school closed) than I would toward this optional activity.

          1. Snark*

            It’s not like optional activities aren’t important for kids. I don’t blame Sam for looking out for his rightful top priority. The office is understaffed and that falls on more people than just him.

            1. Loulou*

              Right! To me an optional activity would be like, leaving early to take the kids to the zoo. Scheduled enrichment activities are different. I really sympathize with OP here, a lot, but I would also be horrified if a coworker told me they had pulled their kids out of dance class or whatever because of my work schedule. I don’t want that! I want the boss to add more staff.

              1. Dust Bunny*

                Except that in this instance they would have pulled their kids out of dance class because of their own work schedule, because this department is expected to cover evenings and weekends.

                I’d be horrified if my coworkers were working all the weekends and evenings because I filled them up with my kids optional activities.

              2. Rusty Shackelford*

                Sam has recused themselves from ALL evenings and weekends. Sam’s kids don’t trump Sam’s coworkers every single time. Some compromise is called for.

              3. Rusty Shackelford*

                I would also be horrified if a coworker told me they had pulled their kids out of dance class or whatever because of my work schedule.

                So if your coworker asked you to work all of the evening and weekend shifts they would normally work, and you said no, sorry, I need some time for my own things, and they said “well I guess my kids don’t get to play soccer then!” you would be horrified?

                1. Loulou*

                  No, I would be horrified if someone avoided scheduling any evening or weekend activities for their kid or themselves because there were not enough people to work evenings or weekends. I would say that more staff needed to be added because the current levels are inadequate, which indeed seems to be the case. I work someplace where we all rotate evenings and weekends but there are a few people whose schedules require accomodations, I assume for things like their kids’ schedules. if my boss just made me cover all their shifts, that would be bad management.

            2. Dust Bunny*

              They are, but maybe not every night and weekend?

              I already said it’s still an employer problem, but it’s also pretty tone-deaf at best of Sam to nope out of evenings and weekends when they know that there is the requirement that those be covered. It’s worse that the employer doesn’t enforce it, of course, but then what would Sam’s plan be if they did? Sam could have done that.

              1. Cold Fish*

                Also, can’t Sam get help with other parents in the sports league. (Carpool, Sam takes Y’s kids to practice and games this week and Y will do the same the following etc. so that then Sam can take some of the shifts, not just leaving it all on OP.

                Also, I know you are short staffed, but is there any way to work out with manager more time off during the week (theoretically when Sam is working and can cover). You’re working Saturday so you get Wednesday off?

      2. Snark*

        On the flipside, though, one’s kids shouldn’t end up holding the short end of the stick for understaffing at a parent’s workplace. Sports and activities are important. The fact that it’s falling on OP is bad management at higher levels, not a failure on Sam’s part to give up stuff that’s important for his kids.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Kids adjust to parents’ work requirements all the time, though. Or Sam could find a job that doesn’t require evenings and weekends.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Just dropping this here because it’s the first comment in the thread where it shows up. At no time in this letter has Sam been gendered. They could be Samantha; they could be Samuel; they could be nb Sam. We just don’t know.

          1. Loulou*

            Yup, I notice OP specifically chose a gender neutral name and didn’t use gendered pronouns, but it’s interesting a lot of people seem to be assuming Sam is a man.

      3. RetailEscapee*

        If Sam weren’t resentfuls superior this would be the case, but they are in a position where they are responsible for the coverage and running of things, and they are choosing to make Resentful the solution when they have authority over them. That’s not ok. When you’re in a leadership role you sometimes need to do the right thing fir your business, not force those beneath you to bear the brunt for LESS money and respect

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      This month, Sam enrolled the kids in an evening and weekend sports league, effectively taking themself out of the evening and weekend rotation.

      Wait. Sam can do that? Sam can just say “sorry, I’m not available?” And if so, can *you* do that? Not to be petty or vindictive, but to maybe force the issue about being short-staffed?

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        +1, some of these things are just about parents setting firmer boundaries with their time. The company respecting that more for parents is certainly a company issue, but “I will not be available” is a line you can use too.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        I would 100% do this. Sorry. I’m a pretty accommodating employee but there are limits.

        1. Clisby*

          Yep. What are they going to do – fire you? So they have even fewer people to cover shifts?

      4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Yeah, this is where I’m at.

        If there’s an evening and weekend rotation, then Sam needs to be available for that the same way the rest of the rotation is available. I would be deeply irritated if the person who is frequently needing coverage ALSO limits availability during those non-prime hours.

        And if you’re not scheduled, and Sam needs coverage for one of those slots, you can happily be unavailable to fill in on a Tuesday night.

        And if this is govt, are you union? You can check with your rep about how coverage can be handled.

    7. Dancin Fool*

      I think your anger, while valid, is misdirected. It’s not Sam putting you in this position it’s your company. If you were properly staffed then Sam not being as available wouldn’t be an issue.

    8. LGC*

      The problem isn’t Sam per se. It’s management for making you shoulder the entire workload for Sam. So, if you can go to your boss…do so! Let them know that you’ve basically been covering your and Sam’s share of extra shifts, and it’s been difficult. Provide suggestions – ask if Betty and Lucinda and Jane can each pick up some shares of the shifts that Sam can’t do.

      On your general point, I’m going to be honest – it’s “yes” to everything! In many ways, being a parent is difficult. I don’t have kids myself, but I totally get that it’s a mess if your child has COVID or whatever, or even something less dramatic like sports leagues. But in many other ways, employees without children sometimes get taken advantage of in this way – they end up shouldering undesirable workloads, like you are, or otherwise miss out on opportunities because they “don’t have a family to support.” (And yes, employees with families – notably, mothers and women/female-presenting people – do get discriminated against as well.)

      1. Chirpy*

        I hadthe parents at one job completely dump everything on me – sure, the one had to do flex time to pick up her kids from school, but she shouldn’t have dumped them in *my* office to watch movies for the rest of the afternoon. And the other started doing it despite having a stay at home spouse, leaving me to close alone every Friday, despite it being the time we were most likely to get crazy visitors and I felt unsafe.

    9. Parenthesis Dude*

      Sam should probably be fired. Presumably his job description had weekend/evening work as a main part, and now he’s not doing that. He should be expected to cover his share of weekend/evening hours, or else he’s not doing his job.

      But that’s not in your control. If I were you, I’d have a chat with Sam’s manager about the situation. But ultimately, you may just need to get a new job if your boss is doing this to you.

      You should feel resentful about the situation. You’re being abused. Now the question is what to do about it.

      1. lost academic*

        Or not? We don’t have nearly enough information to expect that Sam and OP are required to cover any percentage or number of weekend and evening hours and I would instead assume that the understaffing is what has created the situation in which the regular shift staff have just been covering those as needed because they don’t see /aren’t empowered to create another solution. There also wasn’t a mention about whether or not this is compensated work (guessing not). Suggesting that someone get fired because they have made commitment that’s more likely to not interfere with their official job description is rather much. And it’s not like it’s some sort of insane commitment. Children’s events happen in the evenings and on the weekends. So do all activities for adults, too.

        These are the situations where everyone gets misplaced anger when they feel helpless to solve the problem and because we’re all married to the idea that we are our jobs and vice versa, it’s hard to really acknowledge that you can just… stop doing things that aren’t your responsibility to fix.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

          > We don’t have nearly enough information to expect that Sam and OP are required to cover any percentage or number of weekend and evening hours

          But OP of the thread said that coverage is needed for “all of our normal hours, including evenings and weekends” which does sound like they are a standard requirement. OP for example is doing twice as many weekend shifts as they would normally be expected to do (which suggests that the normal expectation is for some weekend work).

      2. Loulou*

        Jeez. I’m a union employee in a coverage based job and yes, working evenings and weekends is in my job description. But if something happened that I couldn’t, I’d expect to go through a process to find an accomodations, not just get fired.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Actually, the last job I had that required weekends, yes, this could have gotten you fired. You agreed to work weekends when you were hired and if you suddenly changed that then your availability no longer suited our needs. And, yes, it meant the same few (childless, mostly) people would get stuck with the weekends you didn’t work.

        1. Parenthesis Dude*

          One of my friends took on a job that required weekend hours and then told them after he accepted that he can’t work Saturdays due to religious reasons. They were strongly thinking of terminating him, but decided not to because he was willing to work just about every Sunday in lieu of Saturday. Because of that, the rest of the team agreed to keep him on.

          If you’re working a job that needs weekend hours, then that’s part of the deal.

      4. Subject_Clause_Predicate*

        I think that’s a pretty big leap from “Sam has established professional boundaries that put his colleagues in stressful positions” to “Sam should be fired.” We don’t know what the job description had in it at all; this is clearly an Employer problem, not a Sam problem.

        1. Parenthesis Dude*

          It’s one thing for Sam to decide if they were an equal to OP that they don’t want to work weekends and see what their boss does. If Sam has no power, then fair enough.

          It’s quite another for Sam as the BOSS to decide they don’t want to work weekends or evenings anymore and just assign it to their employees. Would you want to work for a manager like that? If it’s for medical reasons or something, then fine.

          And the OP stated that the normal hours for this position include weekends/evenings.

    10. MsSolo UK*

      Speaking as a parent who’s partner works opposite shifts, so usually ends up on sole childcare one my days off (as he does on his). I have some sympathy for Sam, and I half suspect the point of the evening and weekend classes is actually so they can get more done – whether that’s just being able to check emails while standing on the sidelines, or if the kids are old enough to be left having ten minutes to do the washing up – rather than carving out time off work, but I do think it’s an issue that it’s at your expense.

      I think you need to separate out the two Sam issues, and the employer issue:
      1 – you’re understaffed. Employer issue
      2 – Sam has to take time off for childcare with short notice due to lack of other options. Systemic social issue.
      3 – Sam has made themself unavailable for evening shifts (I’m assuming weekends were probably already out, due to childcare needs). This one, this feels like a Sam issue.

      How are evening and weekend shifts normally covered? A rota, first come first served (or last come last put upon), one of the vacant roles? Would they be part of Sam’s usual working pattern if you were fully staffed?

      Basically, is Sam avoiding part of their job role by making themself unavailable, or are they setting a boundary to avoid being asked to do work outside of their role? And does your role have the same requirements?

      If covering those shifts is also not part of your working pattern, then now is a good time to follow Sam’s example and take up an evening class that limits your availability too! Force your employer to deal with the ramifications of understaffing. If they are something both of you would be expected to do in normal times, ask Sam what their long term plan is for making sure those shifts are covered, because you don’t have the capacity to continue to cover such a high proportion of them beyond this month (oh your kids have joined a little league team! I’ve just joined an adult softball team that also meets evenings and weekends. what a coincidence!). If it would have been an abuse of power for Sam to make you cover their shifts pre-pandemic, it’s still an abuse of power now, and you’ve built up enough credit at work that I think you’re in a good position to challenge this.

      1. Ashley*

        I think some of 3 is a management issue as well. If evening and weekends are required and they are letting one employee out of that scheduling blame management and not Sam for negotiating for herself.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I half suspect the point of the evening and weekend classes is actually so they can get more done – whether that’s just being able to check emails while standing on the sidelines, or if the kids are old enough to be left having ten minutes to do the washing up – rather than carving out time off work

        That’s a generous suspicion on your part, but Resenting says: We’re a customer-facing government office, so very little of our work can be done from home and I’m the person most of Sam’s work falls on when they’re out of the office. Sam’s not checking email and taking care of business while sitting in the bleachers. And even if the work could be done from home, I’m not sure how driving kids to practice and games, working a bit, and then driving them home, would more effective than simply staying home with the kids and getting some work done.

        1. Massive Dynamic*

          “I’m not sure how driving kids to practice and games, working a bit, and then driving them home, would more effective than simply staying home with the kids and getting some work done.”

          Often times it is – there are other responsible adults supervising your kid doing The Sport or The Dance, so you can pay closer attention to your work. At home? Just you on hand to keep those kids alive and entertained until bedtime.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            It’s a moot point anyway, since most of their work cannot be done offsite.

    11. Generic Name*

      What if you signed yourself up for evening and weekend activities, effectively taking yourself out of the rotation for those additional work hours? Nobody but you has to know that the activities are “watching Netflix” or “sleeping” or “washing your hair”.

    12. Sparkles McFadden*

      This is not how how this is supposed to work. Should Sam get time off for sick kids/childcare falling through? Yes. Should Sam get a free pass on anything and everything because of the kids? Nope.

      Most parents I worked with were considerate and reasonable and I happily switched vacation weeks so people with kids could have time off when their kids were out of school. If I had to work all evenings and weekends because someone signed up their kids for sports? No, that’s too much.

      Document everything and use that documentation to push back, or to negotiate compensation or some equitable trade off…or to start a pro/con list to decide to get a different position or otherwise move along.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        This. If evening/weekend work is part of the job description, then Sam has a responsibility to be available at least some of the time. This is no different from a parent signing their kids up for an activity at 3pm every weekday and then expecting to be allowed to leave early every day. Yes, kids require recreational activity but that doesn’t mean that they require this specific activity. I find it hard to believe that this is the only recreational activity that Sam’s kids have access to, especially since it’s a brand new activity. What were the kids doing before?

        1. J*

          Yes, my coworker did this to me. We have a monthly commitment and the occasional second commitment but the monthly one has been in place since Day 1 and the other we get 3 months notice on. She signed her kids up for sports and then told me it was my problem to solve, which won’t work since I can’t operate solo due to licensing rules. In my opinion, she did this on purpose and then management enabled it. It was a clear expectation at interview and they actually told us it would be 4-6 times the number of events, we’ve just been affected by the pandemic. She previously utilized babysitters, carpooling, etc. but now has chosen not to, which seems to me a refusal to do duties. So I made it her problem again by transferring teams. You can probably tell by my tone that there were other issues but that was one of the final straws, especially when the announcement came while I was staffing the event on the eve of a funeral for someone very close who died unexpectedly. She couldn’t cover me that night but I was expected to cover for her always. She had her priorities and I had mine.

    13. My Brain Is Exploding*

      OK…you said you work FOR Sam? If so, this is crappy. He enrolled his kids in something knowing that he would be then be out of the evening/weekend rotation. This is putting fuel on your fire! I can understand needing to step up if one of the kids is sick or school is closed – those things aren’t optional. Weekend activities are! What to do with these feelings: take action. You have a few options (based on who does the scheduling, how you feel about talking to Sam, how you feel about talking to Sam’s bosses): do nothing, talk to Sam about this; talk to Sam’s bosses about this, find a new job. Tamp down the feelings, arm yourself with information (you are doing your X and Sam’s Y; there is inequity in the evening/weekend coverage; you are getting burned out by this imbalanced work load, etc.). Good luck.

    14. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The fact that the org is understaffed is the problem, but its not your problem. Tell your management that you need to cut back, and then enforce it. Let the management feel the pain of the understaffing.

    15. jumped all the sharks*

      If Sam is a supervisor/manager, they are absolutely in the wrong for doing this. Yes, the upper admin bear some blame, but Sam sounds like a jerk.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Companies looove to extend accommodations to people and assume cohorts will pick up the slack.

      This is a like my family member promises that *I* will be over on Saturday to spring clean this other family members house. The company is making commitments for other people without seeking inputs or asking if it’s okay.

      Tell your boss that you need your share of time off. Tell him that it could impact your health to keep going at this pace. Suggest that perhaps they could hire someone part time to help fill in or maybe someone from another department could help. Ask your boss what the plan is if you call in sick or worse yet call in because you are in the hospital?

      I really don’t think this is a “parenthood” question. What if your cohort took excessive sick time or what if they had a sick parent or any other scenario? Your boss dumped all the work on you. Tell your boss that you think a raise is in order because of all the additional work you have taken on. Let your boss know that the pace you are working at now is NOT sustainable for you and you need to know how soon you can expect relief.

      [Notice not once did I mention parenthood, kids, etc. ]

      1. lost academic*

        A big corollary is “companies LOVE to ignore major staffing deficiencies while passive aggressively pressuring the remaining staff to handle all the work and act shocked when people stop enabling that insanity”. Everyone’s been covering for this huge deficiency and so up the chain it doesn’t really look like there’s a problem. Doesn’t really sound like anyone’s that scared of getting fired.

    17. Chirpy*

      This is mainly your work’s fault for not having adequate coverage, but it is also Sam’s fault. One’s workload shouldn’t be determined by whether or not they have kids. (And what if you did have kids too, or Sam didn’t and was enrolling in classes for themselves? It obviously wouldn’t be right for one person to have claim to all the free nights and weekends at the other’s expense then, it shouldn’t be ok just because your circumstances are different.) You still need rest, too.

      I don’t have any good advice, because these situations have never worked out well for me, but I definitely feel your pain. Probably the best you can do is talk to management, explain that this is unworkable on your end, (maybe show them that your job has basically become nights?) and see what they say. Good luck.

    18. OhBehave*

      You are being taken advantage of by this office. I understand your feelings. They are valid. I’d say this was 80% a manager problem and 20% a Sam problem.
      You’ve stepped up and that’s the expectation that was created. Resenting will do xyz, they always step up when we need them.
      Having kids does NOT trump your need for balance. Sam knows what they’re doing. Sam is not pulling their weight here. Assuming permission was granted for this schedule change? Don’t think this is a one-time thing. Sam found out it worked and will do it again.
      If your mindset is that you have nothing else to do….. You do NOT have to have something scheduled in order to reclaim your life. You deserve to have down time. Even if that means sitting on your couch with a pint of black raspberry chocolate ice cream and binging The West Wing! Don’t let them guilt you into maintaining this workload!

      Bottom line – you do not have to pick up the slack and work yourself into the ground because Sam made this decision. Please stand up for yourself. You will do yourself and others a favor.

    19. Chirpy*

      Not sure if it ate my previous reply but basically: if you and Sam were both in the same life situation (both with/without kids) and Sam unilaterally refused to do any nights/weekends so they all fell on you, that would be obviously wrong.

      It’s mainly an employer issue for inadequate staffing, but Sam having kids shouldn’t mean every childless person around has to suffer because of it, and Sam needs to make some compromises here too. It’s a mandatory part of the job, which Sam presumably knows. I don’t have great advice because this situation has never worked out in my favor, but you deserve some free time too and it’s discrimination if your employer thinks this situation is allowable just because Sam has kids and you don’t.

    20. AcademiaNut*

      I would be sympathetic to Sam when it comes to the whole wife’s schedule, sick kids part. I would not be willing to work extra hours because he registered his kids in a schedule heavy extracurricular activity, leaving me to cover extra weekend and evening duties in addition to covering his work when his kids are sick or the schools are closed. So yeah, no Scrooge vibes here.

      It sounds like you work directly for Sam? I do think that dumping extra work on an already overworked direct report because he wants to take himself out of the evening/weekend rotation for other activities is something you can legitimately be annoyed about.

      It’s entirely reasonable for you to say that you can’t take on any more work than you’re doing now, and leave it up to Sam and his bosses to figure out how to handle things. You may be required to provide services 7 days a week from dawn to dusk, but you can’t get blood from a stone, and you can’t dump a whole department’s work on one person indefinitely. Tell Sam that you can’t take on anymore without burning out, and talk to his bosses if necessary.

    21. Lepidoptera*

      I think you need to push back hard with both Sam and their bosses about the weekend and evening rota. If you allow them to double your weekends for one month you will have very hard time getting back to a normal weekend rota (been there done that).

      If you are as short staffed as it sounds you do have negotiation power. Tell them there was a substantial change to your schedule that you did not agree to. You have previous commitments and are not available for double weekend shifts this month or any month, you are available to work normal number of weekends and evenings. Let management decide what they are going to do. If they try to guilt you into covering, know what would make it worth it for you and don’t cave unless they agree. If Sam’s job requires weekend and evening availability I would be very very surprised if they had let their boss know they were just not going to do that anymore. I think they were trying to pull a fast one and see if they can get away with it.

      Also I’ve worked rotating weekends for 15 years. I know how hard it can make scheduling, and how difficult it is to not have 2 days off in a row every week. Several years ago my coworkers and I pushed back together about getting the weekend schedule for the next month mid current month. Now our manager is required to give out the weekend schedule for the upcoming quarter one month before the current quarter ends. It makes planning things so much easier, one of the best things I have ever done.

    22. Snuck*

      I’ve been both sides of this fence, pre and post having a family.

      I think you can be frustrated with Sam – she’s not exactly playing by the team ethos. BUT it’s also completely your employer’s responsibility to fix this. If they aren’t happy with Sam they should manage her. If they are always supported by you and others and never have to feel the pain of the issue, then they don’t have an issue. (is this that thing where it’s a missing stair? Everyone does a workaround and no one admits there’s an issue?) If you can enrol in a cooking class (on Netflix – Nailed It is good :P ) and suddenly be unavailable then work is going to have to resolve this. Nothing says that Sam can’t have weekends and evenings off obviously, so you too can. Home cooking. Grass painting. Nose cleaning. None of their business what.

      I stood in a school carpark recently watching the chaos of school pickup, and lent over to the Head of School and asked “So… how did *her previous school* handle this?” And she laughed. She said “We didn’t have a carpark, so we didn’t have an issue” and it’s true.

  8. Jorts Hall*

    Guys I got THE JOB. I just gave my 2 weeks to the horrible team lead and management team. I am SO happy right now. My new coworkers are already reaching out and making plans with me. Thank you for all the kind words.

    Now for the work question- What helps you stay the most organized?

    1. OyHiOh*

      I am very comfortable with my digital organizational tools, but I swear by the duplicity of a month at a glance desk calendar plus a paper planner (the kind that has month at a glance, combined with a week spread over two pages). The desk calendar is for big picture context, the planner for day to day.

    2. Scotlibrarian*

      I use Trello (and Outlook Calendar). I have different Trello boards for different things (eg 1 board has a list of colleagues, job titles, phone nos.), but my main board is split into future / thinking, waiting on responses, to dos, to do this week (and if I’m having a bad week, then I’ll have a to do today section with tasks in order). I also use spreadsheets / Gant charts for certain projects (eg at the moment I’m using 1 spreadsheet to organise every staff member trained on mental health awareness – names, dates, where based, Zoom link, etc. I also have another spreadsheet to monitor all the work being done on getting our dept ready to move into a new organisation). I reference these spreadsheets in my Trello to dos (eg send out reminder email for x training, or update transition spreadsheet with N’s update).

      Before using Trello, I used an A4 pad and wrote out lists of to dos and tickerd them off as I did them, but in my current role I juggle a lot of different projects at different stages, so found Trello made life a lot easier.

      Oh, and when I feel a bit overwhelmed I do a brain dump- either I mind map all my projects out, or I list all my to dos in no order, then I can start organising things.

      When I first started out, I found this stuff really hard, but found reading Steven Covey’s The 7 habits of highly effective people really helpful

    3. tessa*

      Congratulations!

      I stay organized with a Trello board, and mark my Outlook calendar with a M-F recurrence of “Check Trello board.” Works for me! :)

      Good luck in your new job!

    4. Silvercat*

      I have ADHD so it’s much harder for me. I have a ADHD coaching group that I pay for, and I use calendars, Habitica, and lots and lots of reminders.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      I recently started using todoist and I’m a huge fan. I can use it seamlessly across multiple devices (phone, computer, etc) and create different buckets of to do lists. It’s also great for collaboration if you need to assign tasks to someone else or vice versa. If you need to track time for whatever reason, it interfaces with toggl track as well.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I use a combination of an outlook calendar and a paper bullet journal. Love my bullet journal.

    7. Asenath*

      Congratulations!

      When I was in a position that needed organization, Outlook Calendar was an absolute essential. I also used Excel – I looked around a bit at more specialized software, but what I found then seemed a bit like overkill for my needs, so I set up spreadsheets for the big longer-term stuff, with separate sheets for whatever each project needed – schedules, lists, simple budgets, records of contacts (each time I contacted each, what I said, whether they answered, what was agreed on), even email lists for contacts – although I also had them in Outlook, I liked having them directly in the Excel sheet on the project they “belonged” to.

    8. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Since there are already suggested project management and task management tools suggested, I’ll add a wild card:

      A running doc of all meeting notes, email/IM exchanges for each project. This becomes my one stop “here’s where we are and where we’ve been” record. These docs can be quite useful when I’m switching between projects rapidly.

    9. Industrial Tea Machine*

      Congratulations! I hope new job works out so well for you.
      Frankly, my best organizational tool is hand writing in a nice notebook that I always have with me when working. I track my time in it, take meeting notes in it, write to-do lists, etc. I know there are a lot of organizational tools and apps out there, but I don’t use them consistently (except Outlook meeting reminders), so they aren’t effective for me. With the notebook, I have the memory aide of hand writing, and also if I need to find a piece of info I have one place to look.

    10. Rainy*

      Congratulations!

      I use a paper planner with spots for to-do lists and notes. I also, organizationally, must use both Outlook and a specific calendaring software, and personally, I use gCal. So yes, I rock four calendars, only two of which update automatically, and only with each other. And not actually very usefully, to be honest, but that’s another issue.

      It works, sort of. I definitely wouldn’t advise it.

  9. Sloanicote*

    Am I being a bit irrational or is this a hill to die on? I produce widgets for my company. When I started, I inherited a widget tracking spreadsheet and was instructed to keep it updated with the widgets I produced, which I do. However, there is a running “staff meeting” document and our office admin lists widgets produced there by date. She has pointedly asked me more than once to update that document every week. Ugh, fine, although there’s better and more complete info on the central tracking spreadsheet. Now there’s also two more external facing versions of the spreadsheet produced by other people, sometimes in different order from the spreadsheet or with some different columns, and I get nudged to update those too. But … it’s all on the central spreadsheet? Why do we keep producing dumb static versions of the same info that then I’m then expected to manually update and get nudged/poked to do so? I tell myself to chill, it probably takes me less than twenty minutes a week to update all these dumb copies, and I don’t have the seniority to tell people to check the spreadsheet and make the updates themselves. Am I missing something? Does this just happen in offices everywhere?

    1. hamsterpants*

      I wouldn’t do it. If nothing else, it’s a quality issue. Having multiple documents of the same information being only updated by copy-paste is a recipe for these documents to wind up with conflicting information.

      I’d be tempted to just share a link to your live document with whoever asks, give one chirpy reply that the info is in the linked document if they need it, and then ignore subsequent emails. Let them escalate it to your boss before you do it, and then you can push back on your boss directly.

      I used to work at a very spreadsheet-happy organization and it was a huge waste of everyone’s time.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Even worse, people are self reporting onto a static document. They can easily manipulate those numbers to make themselves look good, or make others look bad.

      2. Sloanicote*

        Right, this is what happens! I update the main spreadsheet with some change and then later find other copies that don’t agree with my summary and now I have to track down where it went wrong. And we don’t need these other copies anyway!

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Welcome to uncontrolled spreadsheet hell. Why people still use a 50-year-old technology (which replicates a centuries-old paper product!) for this kind of thing is beyond me.

      I’d look at it from the perspective of the business, instead of your time and effort. Is this inconsistency/delay causing actual problems? Customers being promised widgets that aren’t in inventory? Widget component purchase orders that are too big/too small for the actual pace of widget production?

      If any of those things are true, then it’s reasonable to bring this up to your manager. If it’s just a matter of you having to copy/paste data into 3 other spreadsheets, that’s probably something you’re just going to have to deal with. Write it up as inevitable friction.

      1. Sloanicote*

        Yeah sadly it’s the latter haha. These other spreadsheets aren’t really being used for anything important, other than making managers feel like they contributed something to the widget process.

        1. Cold Fish*

          I agree with AB’s Evil Twin & hampsterpants above. If the updates are for actual work production and it’s not a bid deal to you, update. If it’s just another manager too lazy to check the main spreadsheet to get the info they need, don’t do it and make them escalate and justify why you need to do it to your manager. (Especially the admin who just wants to note it on the meeting agenda.)

          Fingers crossed your manager isn’t like me though. We are constantly making changes for other departments because of an off-hand comment in some meeting where we are asked to bend over backward then walk on the ceiling. Managers response, well we were told to do it (no we weren’t) and it’s not that hard so just do it. I don’t care if it takes 30 seconds or 30 minutes, if I’m up to my eyeballs in work or spending 6 hours a day on AAM, the information is available to other dept. and the sole benefit is to other dept… Let other dept do their own work! Sorry, major squirrel moment there.

    4. Lady_Lessa*

      Not being an expert at computers/spreadsheets etc., but is there a way that when you put the data into the central one, that the info automatically updates the other ones?

      1. Xena*

        There is, but if OP’s coworkers are already struggling at copy-pasting from one to another then there’s a good chance someone would break something.

        1. Sparkles McFadden*

          Yup. Plus, even when it works perfectly, you get people who freak out over the automating updating and say “I don’t trust it.”

          1. quill*

            You really need buy-in and basic computer literacy from on-high to get auto-updating, edit-restricted spreadsheets to work.

    5. Oh No She Di'int*

      This has “I’m used to doing it this way, so let’s keep doing it this way” written all over it. This is very common and is usually attached to legacy people clinging to the path of least resistance, which usually means keep doing things the way you’ve always done it.

      Not exactly the same situation as yours, but I once worked in a department that was issuing purchase orders by drawing them up in QuarkXPress, which if you aren’t familiar, is an ancient graphic layout software. It makes about as much sense as creating purchase orders in Photoshop, but they’d been doing it that way for years and so it just continued.

      1. Xena*

        Everything about that idea makes me cringe. There might be a less effective software for purchase orders but I can’t think of one.

        1. hamsterpants*

          Now I’m imagining using an on TI-83+ graphing calculator to write up the PO in grainy cursive.

    6. Anon for This*

      This was the situation in an old job of mine. Keep the official spreadsheet. Point others there for the info they need. Push back on doing their work for them – if they want you to input it tell them unfortunately you don’t have time but here is the link to the main spreadsheet. (Important to note – make sure they cannot edit your spreadsheet – they may try to make yours match theirs.) Right now you have three people asking you to move data from your document to theirs. If you keep doing this the number of “other” spreadsheets will proliferate and no one will be sure which one is accurate.

      1. Ashley*

        And at some point it makes sense to loop in your manager about the problems and time spent doing so many different updates with the same information.
        If different people need pieces it might become worth it for you to create an spreadsheet that breaks off the pieces of info those people need from the master via automatic update formulas. You may spend time on the front end but it will save you in the long term. Also I would really ask the question what some people are tracking and what they use the tracking for in helping to limit the number of different sheets and updates.

        1. hamsterpants*

          Yes, the more this can be automated, the better. Basically make it so people get access to information without you having to hand-manage everyone else’s system. Maybe you can set an email to automatically email everyone who wants it the latest version of your spreadsheet.

          The other risk with updating other people’s spreadsheets is scope creep. Like if they decide they want a new column, suddenly it becomes your job to add that column, rather than just giving a pre-defined data product at a pre-determined interval.

            1. hamsterpants*

              At my old company the bosses decided that everything had to be under control all the time, so errant one-time mishaps always necessitated new columns in the spreadsheet. If one teapot wasn’t glazed on time because the glazer was late to work because he slipped on the ice because there wasn’t enough rocksalt available to the grounds team, for the rest of time the teapot team would have to track rocksalt inventory.

    7. quill*

      My suggestion is to ensure that all of those people have access (potentially read-0nly access if they are likely to be clicking around in ways that could disrupt the record) to the central tracking spreadsheet with an email to all of them. But also to split the central spreadsheet, if you have not, by year (different sheets, different workbooks, whichever is more appropriate.) It’s possible they’re making new spreadsheets because the one you’ve had is too large to load or navigate for them.

      1. Sloanicote*

        Yes, I think they all want to add their 1% to the spreadsheet so creating one master spreadsheet with everybody’s dumb addition would get unwieldy pretty fast. I guess I should talk to the people about a database but I still think they wouldn’t actually use it to pull data. They really like updating their spreadsheets. Or making me do it.

        1. hamsterpants*

          You probably can’t directly slay this dragon. Spreadsheet hell is just a symptom of a systemic problem with how your company functions. The more you try to fix it, the deeper you’ll get pulled in and the more you’ll be targeted for this loathsome busywork. Trust me, I got pulled into a years long project to streamline my company’s own SH. All I got was carpal tunnel syndrome from the endless mousing. My evil boss saw that I could be motivated to try to fix these messes and just sent more my way while other colleagues used weaponized incompetence to avoid having to participate.

          Take care, we’re all rooting for you to not get pulled in.

          1. Sloanicote*

            Yeah I suspect I’ll just continue to do the same job of updating the other spreadsheets when I feel like it and rolling my eyes. I’m the only widget maker in a company that needs widgets to continue so they will take it.

            1. quill*

              Yeah, the only reason that when I had to slay the spreadsheet dragon I succeeded was because the group boss was 100% behind “I never want to have to ask where this information is again.”

              If she hadn’t been, no professional way of saying “If you merge cells on the pivot table ever again I will wreck your week” would have done the trick.

    8. ArtK*

      No advice, but oh do I feel for you. I’ve got 3 organizations all tracking the same class of bug. Two of them generate their lists from old data and I’m constantly having to explain why mine don’t match theirs.

    9. Database Developer Dude*

      I second the link. Hell, if we’re talking about Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel, you can use Visual Basic for Applications to do an automatic pull from the spreadsheet as soon as a Word document opens. That way, they’ll always have the latest version, because you updated the central spreadsheet.

    10. Shieldmaiden*

      This is called version control or version management. Google the terms for a quick primer on why it’s important to establish and follow best practices. The other commenters have great advice too; I just wanted you to know a term to wield in case management comes poking.

    11. anonymous73*

      You’re not at all wrong to be bothered by this, but depending on how much capital you have will determine how far to push this. You and others shouldn’t have to update multiple versions of the same exact spreadsheet. It should be shared in a central location that everyone can access. Or if your company lives in the dinosaur age, changes should be submitted to one person nd they should maintain it (although that sounds like it would be a full time job in and of itself).

    12. Asenath*

      I tried to absolutely insist that there be only one record of whatever I was tracking, updated by me. I didn’t always have the seniority to insist, but honestly, going around manually updating otherwise static lists is a pain, and just asking for errors to sneak in, and then you get blamed for it even when you point out that you don’t update daily, and if they waited for the update, the numbers would be right. So, yes, it happens in a lot of places. I still remember how thrilled I was when I could have a particular list automatically updated by IT which had access to an official master list. I no longer had to keep our separate list updated, always getting something wrong, and almost never getting anyone willing to review the entries when I asked, although they often complained eventually that they were wrong. I had the contact information for the person who maintained the master list in case an error was noted, and I didn’t have to try to chase down the information and update it manually.

    13. Kay*

      Do you ever attend these “staff meetings” where this is discussed? If so, could you simply bring up the multiple versions of this spreadsheet and suggest that everyone use the central version for efficiency, accuracy and insert whatever buzzword that may resonate best with the people involved? Expect the world to end, be prepared to offer many examples of where things went wrong and for those to be correspondingly dismissed, have a proposed solution that will be named impossible, and take comfort in knowing you told them so. Ah the joys of communal spreadsheets…

    14. I'm just here for the cats.*

      Do the people that are asking you to update the other documents have access to the tracking spreadsheet. You say that you “inherited” the spreadsheet. To me that sounds like only the person in your role has access to that spreadsheet.

      If you can push back on this I would make the spreadsheet available to all who are asking for updates and then they can include the info in their own documents.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah, everyone has access to this spreadsheet (it’s on a central drive) but these people are several levels senior to me [except the office admin – but she still has tons of seniority and isn’t in my reporting line] so I have hesitated to say “please use the central spreadsheet to update your own weird static list.” (or, “please don’t make new versions of the data without a better reason haha).

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Can you add reports into your sheet that show the info in the format the others are using and present it a a new tool you’re giving them?

    16. fhqwhgads*

      Shadow databases are the devil’s plaything. These extra spreadsheets are shadow databases.

    17. Snuck*

      It sounds like it’s time for a reporting audit ;) Not sure if you have the gravy to request that, but generally this stuff can a) consolidate reporting requirements to reduce rework, b) identify reports that can be programmed to auto fill so no one has incorrect data (your extra spreadsheets are a prime example of this – those fields could auto fill from the original file!), and c) remove reports no longer needed.

      It’s not hard to have a report auto fill a field if someone wants to work out how to do it. Google will answer this fairly fast. I’d look to do that if you can. A not too technical/reasonably clever person can also then set the file up to tweak so every week it updates automatically with a new file name/date too.

  10. Katie*

    Hi all – would love your advice on a situation I’m dealing with.

    I finished an internship last December on what I thought were great terms – I got a really nice thank-you card signed by half the team, my manager told me to stay in touch, etc. But I’ve since reached out several times via email and LinkedIn to that manager and another co-worker asking for a reference, and neither responded. (Even though we’re still LinkedIn connections and I see them respond warmly towards other former employees’ updates.)

    I have other references, thankfully, but I’m fairly hurt at being ghosted (I wish they would at least write back and explain why). I’m scared that I’ve accidentally done something to offend them, and that maybe something’s come up that’s changed their opinion of me. Most of all, I’m worried that they’ll tell background check companies that I’m not eligible for rehire or something like that, and I’ll lose a summer internship offer and not even know why.

    I signed a reference release form, but I do have the option to revoke that consent and so the company would only release title and dates of employment, but that seems… like an admission of guilt? And what if they tell background checkers I did that? But at the same time, if I do have a bad reference, I should probably proactively manage it.

    Ugh – I should mention here that I have fairly severe anxiety, so I instantly jump to the worst conclusion. I would love any advice.

    1. kina lillet*

      How long has it been since you sent the emails/messages?

      If it makes you more comfortable, I think you can list other references. Also, if you know someone who’s very comfortable on the phone and is familiar with office life, you could try having them call to see what HR says—but I wouldn’t try this before you’ve pinged your possible references again.

      An additional ping might look like, “I’m starting to apply to summer internships, and wanted to check about listing you as a reference—if you’re willing to do that please let me know!”

      Background checks aren’t really going to ask about rehire. Reference checks will, but I’d be pretty surprised about extensive reference checking for summer interns.

      1. Katie*

        So I first sent an email to my manager in mid-January, and a follow-up email three days later, and then a quick LinkedIn message basically saying “hi! not sure if you got my email, but I just wanted to see if everything’s ok” in mid-February. For my former co-worker, just the one email last month. I’ve thought about sending one final ping, but I don’t want to do anything that would be unwelcome, or look like I can’t take a hint.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          From previous conversations here, many people rarely check LinkedIn messages when not job hunting, so I’d say a separate followup email would not be overkill.
          Although I personally would include a bit of chatty “I hope all’s well at $Company” and ask how the (recent event or trend) has affected them.

    2. not a doctor*

      I think you’re overthinking it! It’s not great that they’re not responding to you, but it doesn’t mean anything about their impression of you. It’s more likely that it keeps falling off their radar! They didn’t know you long, and you might not be a big priority to them, which definitely doesn’t mean they don’t care or actively dislike you.

      Are you asking for references for specific things, or just a general “will you be a reference when I start looking for internships?” If it’s the latter, I’d try again only when you have something very specific on the line and can tell them exactly what you need.

      1. Katie*

        Hopefully! My former manager did mention once during my last week that she’s given out tons of references for former interns, though, and I did ask for a letter of recommendation specifically for a fellowship application. After not getting a response, I asked a former manager from a different internship, and the latter enthusiastically agreed in less than an hour.

    3. social work data nerd*

      That’s really frustrating and I would feel the same way. I would try calling them. It very well could be that they are busy and have missed your e-mail. I hope it works out.

    4. Zephy*

      What are you expecting to happen when you ask them for a reference? Do you need a reference letter for the jobs/internships/grad school/whatever you’re applying for? It’s possible they assume “can you give a reference for me” means they’re now expecting a phone call from someone else, asking about you as a job candidate – there’s not really anything for them to do with you at this point, if that’s the case. If you need something in writing, you should specify that.

      1. Katie*

        I asked them if they’d be willing to give a reference, and if so, to please give me their preferred contact info – or to let me know if they’d rather decline for any reason. I don’t expect them to give a reference if they don’t want to, but I wish they’d at least respond.

        1. Esmeralda*

          If they said “yes” to your request, but haven’t respnded to the “preferred contact info,” just use their work contact info.

          And email them when you’re applying to positions to give them a heads up. Make the subject line clear.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If you’re asking for a reference, are you asking for a written one? Like the recommendations on LinkedIn? Or might they be thinking that you’re using their name as a reference so they might get a call?

      If you’re hoping for something written, it’s a good idea (preferably after you’ve reached them again via email or phone) to send them a copy of your resume and a couple of ideas that they could use to get started. (Like — “Hi Fergus, thanks for offering to write me a LI recommendation. I’m looking for more tech support/call center positions, so if you could mention the big Teapot App launch and all the calls we got, it would be great.”

      Projects like this can easily drop to the bottom of the to-do list. Reducing barriers by giving them a prompt can be all it takes to get back up to the top.

    6. Snuck*

      Hrm.

      I’m not sure the situation so I’m going to mentally potter about a bit.

      Was your role incredibly entry level? And are the jobs you are applying for in the field you interned or another? Have they been asked to be a reference a few times already?

      If they are being contacted regularly for references for roles that have nothing to do with your internship then it’s probably somewhat annoying after a while. Preserve that relationship for when you need it!

      If your role there was really entry level, and not generally ‘business important’ is it possible they churn through a lot of such interns and don’t really keep in contact with any? This sounds a bit rough, but basically if they have six interns a year, on constant rotate, then you really need to stick out to them, and it sounds like you were okay at what you did and they’d hire you in the right role at the right time, but aren’t going to put a huge investment in you?

      Have you applied for a lot of jobs in your field and they’ve had to reference multiple times for you? Even when it’s their field the reference should be ‘preserved’ and kept for quality applications. Maybe list them without their contact details and include a “contact details can be provided” so you can screen out the companies that routinely badger references before they’ve even interviewed you. You want to wait until you actually have interviewed for the role, know you want it, and the company actually wants you, before annoying your ‘A list’ references. (I could be out of touch on this. I’m Australian, and in reasonably professional/senior roles. Happy to be corrected.)

      I doubt their opinion of you has changed! I know social anxiety can claw at you a bit… so listen to this little voice of reason… they know how you did your job, at the time, and were happy with it. They might have moved on with another intern (through standard intern programs, nothing more) and time might be slowing their memory of you. Maybe, if you haven’t reached out in a while, pick one key person there (your direct supervisor I’d recommend) and send a short email “Hi Jane, I’m applying for summer internships and I know a few might be needing references. I’m also really aware that we’re nearly a year away from when I interned for you last summer. Do you mind helping me out again as a reference this summer? If it’s taking too much from your time would you maybe write me a written reference instead that I could provide the various programs I am applying to, to save you having to repeat yourself? I’m really excited about two this year – one on squirrel capture and release, and another in squirrel flying photography. Nothing quite compares to your ‘circus squirrel training’ though! Let me know if it’s ok to put you down again, Katie.”

      This is a heads up that you are applying for more and needs her help, it’s gives her some options to consider how she can help, and is cheery and helpful. It references her time as being important, and it helps her understand what sort of roles you are applying for so she can have context when that contact is made.

      Good luck. Don’t let the anxiety bite! It’s not you, it’s just busy lives hon.

    7. Stoppin' by to chat*

      My advice is this is your anxiety talking :) LinkedIn is not the most reliable platform to assume intent since some people NEVER check it. Do you have an email address for them? I would use that to ask if they would be a reference. But do NOT assume the worst. I promise that’s not what’s happening :)

  11. anon e mouse*

    This might be too broad to generate good discussion, but what are people’s thoughts on trying to get an easier job? By easier I mean similar pay for less work (in terms of quantity and/or difficulty)? I used to think I needed to be challenged but honestly it seems like challenging jobs I’ve had just give me more anxiety while not actually being any less boring. Have you done this? Did it work out, or did you end up regretting it?

    (To anticipate some questions, I probably have undiagnosed ADHD and yes I probably should be doing something else with my life, but I make pretty good money in my current field and I have a young child and a wife who is currently a SAHM and we live in an expensive area, so a total career change is not in the cards for at least several years.)

    1. Dust Bunny*

      In the same field or changing fields?

      My knee-jerk reaction is that unless you’re currently underpaid and likely to get a better offer simply by changing employers, this is mostly a fantasy. I’d love to get paid more for my same job but reality is that I get paid pretty much what people get paid to do what I do.

      1. anon e mouse*

        Without getting too deep into personal details, I currently work for a well-funded NGO. My job is really a job and a half, in my opinion. They have openly told me that they tried to get budget to hire two people but only got funding for one. (Apparently they don’t expect me to connect the dots about what that implies.) A roughly similar job in local government is way less work for similar pay (I know, I had a job like that before we relocated during the pandemic) but, in that previous case at least, it was also extremely boring. My sense is also that feds doing similar work are not under as much pressure although I don’t have direct experience there. Compared to the private sector I am underpaid in either case, but my background makes it hard for me to not get screened out by private sector employers unless I network into an interview, which I have found hard to do during COVID.

        1. ArtsNerd*

          Private sector, then. I’m making almost just as money doing the easiest admin work ever now as I did on my senior-staff position at a small-to-mid budget nonprofit.

          The gap won’t be as big for you, but the premise holds. Private sector jobs are much better compensation.

              1. anon e mouse*

                I did consulting, like the FT employee of a federal government contractor kind, not the independent contractor kind, for a number of years after undergrad. I hated billing my time in small increments, although my impression is that our contracts were unusually detailed in how hours were allocated and so this is not as big a deal at other firms, where you might go months at a time only billing one or two projects. Not sure if you meant that kind or the 1099 kind, though.

        2. Jonquil*

          For sure go to government. It’s stable and has great benefits, which is appealing with a young family. Government is always dealing with budget cuts, but it doesn’t seem nearly as bad as NGOs and it’s often unionised, meaning basic pay and conditions are better, and there’s more rules and policies in place to protect you.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I’d like an easier job too but the hellscape of hiring depresses me. ( I have ADHD but I also have depression)

    3. Reality Biting*

      According to psychologists, what you really should be aiming for a job in which you can achieve a state of “flow”. That would mean something that challenges you just enough but not too much.

      Do you perhaps have a history as an overachiever? It’s possible your current job is just too much of a stretch. There is nothing written anywhere that says you have to take the most demanding job you can possibly find. It’s totally legitimate to ease up and take a job where it’s easy to get into a “zone”.

      Having said that, psychologists also say that some amount of autonomy or self-direction is key to happiness. So if that is true, it would be preferable not to take a job where you don’t have much say over what you do and how you do it.

      Food for thought. Good luck!

    4. AdequateArchaeologist*

      I think it depends on what you mean by easier. I moved from being a batch printer being paid $12 to an admin assistant at $15.
      The admin position was much easier in many ways (less stress, more perks, better coworkers and company) but also sucked in that my workload was awkwardly structured and it could be kind of unfulfilling. I like making things, so doing shipping transfers just didn’t have the same satisfaction. There was also a lot of downtime/on- call time that was awful until could work from home. Then I could do house work until I had actual work to do.
      But finding another printing job that was easier and paid more was just not a thing that exists.

      As an archaeologist, which employer I work for (and further, federal vs state vs private) will affect the “easiness” factor as it relates to pay. But, the catch is it’s again hard to find a position that is directly analogous to what I do now.

      That’s being said, if you feel you aren’t being compensated fairly it’s fine to find a job that has less responsibility/hours/stress whatever at the same rate. That’s what I did when I left my printing job. But you also have to be realistic to an extent. Technically I could make more at a different archaeology employer, but I would likely have to give up some of my current perks (like living in a non-isolated area, or doing more field work/travel instead of all the data management my nerdy heart loves).

      I hope that answered your question?

      1. anon e mouse*

        This is helpful, thanks. I don’t want to go too far down the road of outing myself with personal details, but let’s just say my background is something almost as “exotic” as archaeology and so what I have actually ended up doing professionally is selling my hard skills in areas adjacent to my actual training.

    5. Dobby is a Free Elf!*

      My husband did this–minor pay cut to transfer to an internal role, when he usually works as a contractor. Contracting, in his field, is very fast-paced, constantly new things coming in, a lot of different clients to deal with and fun new things to try. At New Role, he had a lot of days when he was just sitting at his desk watching random videos and painting models all day. Much easier, much less stress.

      He hated it so much that he was out the door less than six months later. I think he started looking three months in, and got serious about it at four.

      1. anon e mouse*

        Yeah, this is what I’m worried about. The problem is that the only time I tried something like this, I got unlucky and the agency I ended up working for was an absolute mess, in a way that would have been hard to know in advance. (It was in the early stages of a slide from good place to work to bad place to work when I started, so Glassdoor reviews were not reflective of the actual experience.) I was definitely unhappy there, but I’m not sure the problem was really the lighter workload so much as the utter dysfunction at nearly every level.

    6. SwitchingJobs!*

      I would literally just start going on interviews and ask in them what the job looks like day to day and take your best shot at a new one. I have had all kinds of jobs and the “easy” ones still retain a bunch of the actual stuff that makes work stressful. I think the only help I can give is that you don’t know what’s out there unless you look.

    7. Decidedly Me*

      I thrive on being challenged and you would think doing easier work would bore me, but it really doesn’t. Those mind numbing tasks that everyone hates – I don’t. I have to remind myself not to take those tasks on, as that’s not what I’m paid to do. If I had an easier job, I would just challenge myself outside of work and be fine with that I think. I haven’t tried, though.

      Wherever I’ve worked, even if I’m doing more entry level things to start, I always take on more and more, as I tend to be good at what I do. Also, I do also really enjoy higher level positions. At this point, I don’t think I could take a step back (personally couldn’t, I’m sure I could get hired for a step back) and it would be hard to find easier work for similar pay without an industry switch.

      Overall, my thoughts are do it if that is what you need/want. If you think a challenge is important, that challenge doesn’t need to be from work. It’s not fun to feel anxious and work takes up a lot of time.

    8. Sparkles McFadden*

      I did this once while in a nights/weekends grad program. I moved to a much easier job in another department because I was exhausted from full time work and full time school. When I finished the school program, and the demands on my time lessened substantially, I said “Oh boy, this job is so boring!” I ended up moving to another position (in the same company) that was much more challenging. It was so challenging that I welcomed the boring tasks from time to time…but that was what worked for me.

      Look around and see what’s out there. You may decide that staying put is is the best choice for now. In my experience, just taking some action can relieve the anxiety.

    9. Wats*

      Easier is a subjective thing. I found my work became easier when I did work that I enjoyed more. Maybe find the things that you like about your work and try to see if there is a more specialized version of it.

      For example, I liked doing QA work, but was stressed about being the final step before things went to production. If something went wrong live, I felt like it was more on me than the developers. I used my background to move up into a Scrum Master position which is more about communication and helping out the team and felt MUCH more fulfilled.

    10. Pop*

      This is not quite what you’re asking, but my husband and I both work “easier” jobs than we could if we wanted to challenge ourselves more. For us, it’s great – we have an infant and my husband is mostly a SAHP and works part-time, and I’m able to shut off my computer right at 5, plus do misc things during the day sometimes and spend a lot of time with my family. A lot of the things that people talk about being stressed about with young kids aren’t as much issues for us as a result. We live in a tiny aka cheaper space so my husband could work part time and we’re financially fine. We have a lot of time to both do household chores and also fun stuff together as a family. Sometimes the days are long, but I love being able to read a ton and exercise and cook dinner together every night. It’s definitely worth it for us right now and we’ll probably do this for the next few years so we can have another kiddo.

    11. Cedrus Libani*

      Agree with the comments above. This is still capitalism, employers don’t want to pay any more than they have to, so if they’re offering standard pay for an easier-than-standard job…you’re giving up something.

      Also agree that the sweet spot for enjoying your job is where it’s just hard enough that you need to engage, but not so hard that you begin to struggle. The sweet spot for *getting better* is where you systematically push yourself into the struggle zone. It’s on you to decide: comfort zone, or push harder?

      People want to make this a moral issue. You’re either pushing as hard as you can, or you’re a lazy bum. Nope. This is for YOU, picking the best life for YOU. If you’re content where you are, such that you can do a good job without undue stress, and then direct your surplus energy to other things…do you. If you want to be your grand-boss when you grow up, you’d enjoy the higher-level duties and you’d certainly enjoy the paycheck, then that’s an option too. But it’s not for everyone.

      One thing I will add – I’m a big fan of the “Moneyball” approach. When evaluating the desirability of a baseball player (or a job opportunity, etc), people learn from one another how to weight various factors, and so a market develops that may systematically under-rate a particular person / place / thing.

      More concretely, I’m a llama groomer. Frankly, llamas are legacy tech. People are surprised that they still exist. Yes, they do! They’re worse than any number of modern alternatives, but if a llama is good enough for your needs then it’s probably a lot cheaper than a helicopter.

      I’m a former dog groomer. Most llama groomers are. That’s the job little kids grow up dreaming about. Playing with fluffy puppies all day. Traveling the world to attend glamorous dog shows. When you’re at a dinner party, you’re everyone’s new best friend – they want to hear all about your amazing life. Oodles of poodles! So jealous! Most people have never even seen a llama.

      You know what, though? It’s the same job. I still get to play with the critters, and use my creativity to make them look their best. I still get pooped on and/or bitten, and that’s just the owners. The difference is, my job can’t pay me in units of living out my childhood dreams. So they pay cash. Cold, hard $$$$. I’m paid roughly twice what a dog groomer at my level would get, and I have no regrets whatsoever.

    12. Blinded By the Gaslight*

      I used to be a manager, now I’m a secretary, and I couldn’t be happier. I actually make more money for far less aggravation and politics. My workload is still busy and has its own demands/pressures of course, but it’s not following me home at night and on weekends like my previous job. I’m so annoyed I fell for the MUST CLIMB CAREER LADDER trap, when I’m happier and more well-paid in a support role than I ever was as a manager.

      It’s never too late for a gear shift, or to start plotting a career shift. :)

    13. Sincerely Raymond Holt*

      Target larger, more established companies with processes and procedures already in place. Find a position that is much more specialized vs. generalist, one that wears fewer separate hats. That will allow you to get really good at 1-2 things vs. having to keep track of a lot of different projects. I have found in my experience that the more different functions I have, the more complex the position is. You might also benefit from a role that is more independent vs. team oriented, meaning one where you can work at your own pace, not having people constantly asking you for things. Good luck!

    14. Anonymous Koala*

      I sort of did this (research with 60+ he’s/wk to regulation with just over 40). What worked for me was really playing to my strengths. I was always good at the writing, critical thinking and analytics part of my job, and not so good at the precise ‘I can make my thumb move exactly .218 mm every second’ part. So switching to a field that really used my writing skills made my job 1000x easier for *me*, even though the work itself isn’t objectively “easier”.

      Are there some parts of your job that you find easier than others? You may be able to parlay them into a well paying job in an adjacent field. And by the same logic, if there are parts of your job that are really difficult, avoid postings that include them as much as possible. You may even be able to talk to your boss about modifying your job description a little to play more to your strengths, or partnering with a coworker with a complementary skill set. Good luck!

    15. bean counter*

      I’m in favor. The job I have now is much easier than my previous jobs, has better work hours, pays better, and has better benefits. I don’t know if I want to do this forever because the trade-off is it’s incredibly boring, lots of bureaucracy, and less autonomy, but it’s exactly what I need right now. Whatever decision you make doesn’t have to be permanent.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      A couple things jumped at me.

      ” what are people’s thoughts on trying to get an easier job? By easier I mean similar pay for less work (in terms of quantity and/or difficulty)?”

      I think it’s always wise to look around to see if you can get a better deal elsewhere. My father said what he saw years ago was the more people were paid the less work they did. Just a generality, but shouldering more responsibility is very different from a physical job that runs you all day long. It’s two different types of tired.
      I can remember younger me, after spending all day on my feet, would lay in bed and it felt like I was still on my feet and walking. (No, not restless leg syndrome. It’s a type of stress though.)
      I also wonder if more pay sometimes indicates a company is more respectful toward its people.

      I have often thought about work as an endurance contest. What if I were running a marathon? I would prep- exercise, good foods, proper hydration and so on. Once I thought of work as a marathon I was able to accept all this prep work as part of what enabled me to retain a job.
      It’s fine to change direction but if our health/well-being is on an “iffy” foundation it really does not matter where we work as each job will involve some internal upset/battle inside our own selves.

      Next. ” I used to think I needed to be challenged but honestly it seems like challenging jobs I’ve had just give me more anxiety ”
      Please take a closer look at how you define “challenge”. All jobs present some sort of challenge. A few jobs I had included some tasks that I absolutely dreaded. I mean lay awake at night with dread. The better companies know where common pitfalls are in their positions and they do something to train the employee so they are equipped in some manner to deal with these tougher tasks. In better work settings there is usually someone who will take an interest in a newbie and lend a hand here and there. Crappy companies laugh when people fail and gossip in anticipation of how that person WILL fail. In short, it matters where you work and the people you work with.
      If you think about anxiety as lack of necessary knowledge and/or lack of support, does this explain some of why you are anxious in this job? Or even previous jobs?

      I had a job at a crappy company. I had a lot of responsibility considering what I was paid. My cohorts in other departments had very little understanding of my department which made matters way worse. And then Life! stuff happened and my health tanked.

      Oddly, I was grateful to have a job that I was super familiar with. I decided to address health concerns THEN change jobs. And this is my suggestion to you. Find out about the ADHD or anything else that concerns you. Use this job as a constant/something familiar in your life to begin to venture into the new territory of shoring up your health and well-being. For me I did not think it would be a strong plan to change jobs AND change my health habits at the same time. That sounded like a recipe for disaster.

      Once you start feeling stronger on the inside, then start thinking about what you want to do next. Try to be a little more strategic, think about what parts of your current and past jobs have gone well for you. How can you drift towards jobs that would have more of those good projects and tasks that you seem to have a natural ability for?

      I ended up taking a “lesser” job but I am paid more. I now have energy to do things other than just get prepped to go to work and then go to work. The jobs I do now are challenging but I am not in a tank with a bunch of piranha – I have support, I have assistance, etc. While I still get tired, I know if I go to bed on time, I will feel rested the next day. This is a huge change in my life. And I still do the self-care routines I learned that I needed for myself when I was at that crappy job years ago.

      Talk to your spouse about changing jobs in the future. Talk about addressing health concerns. Ask your wife what she would like to do herself — say over the next few years. Set goals together and work together to see what changes together you can achieve.

  12. Cat Mouse*

    In this day of spam calls, will hiring people leave voicemails to set up interviews, or should I be answering unknown calls that could be about a job?

    I’m gettong so many about call center jobs and car warranties that I’d rather review a voicemail and call back within 5 to 10 minutes.

    1. MB*

      I would make sure your voicemail message is set up and professional-sounding to confirm to the caller that they’ve actually reached YOU and that would make them more likely to leave a voicemail.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        This, and make sure your voicemail is working. Have a friend call and leave a voicemail to test.

          1. quill*

            And go back and make sure your voicemail isn’t full every day. If your limit is 20 and you get four spam calls, two phone calls from people you already know, and three calls apiece from five people calling about 100% unrelated jobs because you updated your resume in some online database… you will miss voicemails.

    2. Canonical23*

      They’ll leave a voicemail. I rarely answer phone calls from unknown numbers unless I’ve finished the final round of an interview process.

      As a hiring manager, I use email to set up interviews but if they don’t answer an email, I’ll follow up with one phone call and leave a voicemail requesting them to respond to the email by a certain date if they are still interested.

    3. Stephivist*

      I don’t have any problem leaving voicemails. I’m actually more surprised when people answer (knowing that my office # does not show up on ID with a business name).

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I routinely do this because of the risk of spam calls and because legit calls either respond to the Google assistant prompts and/or leave a voicemail. I’ll wait for the voicemail and then call back and say something like “It looks like I just missed your call.”

    5. jess is my name, pasta's my game*

      If I’m calling for an interview and have to leave a message that is perfectly OK and totally understandable

      HOWEVER, if that person does not return my call in a timely manner (like within 30-60 minutes) then I’m very likely no longer interested

      Good Luck!!

      1. hc*

        30 minutes?! Are these scheduled calls or are you calling unsolicited? I really hope it’s the former!

      2. Nonprofit pro*

        That seems like a really short turnaround time. 30 to 60 minutes wouldn’t even stretch to cover most my meetings.

      3. Lady Danbury*

        Wow, that’s completely unreasonable. I’ve had days where I’ve been in back to back meetings all day, with barely any time to inhale a quick lunch in between. On those days, there’s no way I would be able to respond to any messages until later that evening. If I’m leaving a voicemail, I would expect someone to get back to me by the next business day.

      4. Generic Name*

        Woah, you are likely losing out on quality candidates because many busy people simply won’t have time to respond within that VERY SHORT timeframe, and candidates who have jobs may not be able to respond within the same day.

      5. JelloStapler*

        +1 to an unreasonable timeframe. If I have back-to-back student meetings, I will not be able to call you back in that time frame- 24 business hours would be more reasonable.

        Honestly, If you said that to me as a result of me getting back to you outside of that time frame (we’re no longer interested because X), I would be relieved that I dodged a bullet.

      7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I’m pretty sure @jess is my name is referring to a scheduled interview (per the starter “If I’m calling for an interview”), partly because I like to pretend humans are reasonable and rationale creatures.

      8. quill*

        Yeah, that’s a very short time for most people to be able to find sufficient time and privacy to call back! There’s no place I’ve ever worked that *didn’t* have frequent stretches where I was in a meeting, working on a project, or otherwise not available to call people back for 90+ minutes

    6. Haha Lala*

      They should be leaving voicemails. Especially since they likely expect you to be working somewhere else during normal business hours, they can’t expect you to be available to answer a call at any time.

    7. Midwest Manager*

      As a rule, I don’t make phone calls to schedule interviews. I start with an email. For a phone interview, I set a time through that email exchange so they know that the call coming in at 9:00 am is NOT a spam call and will answer it.

      Any interviewer who starts the process with a phone call during the day is most likely not expecting you to pick up. If they leave a message, they aren’t expecting an immediate call back – as long as its within a few business hours it should be a non-issue, like not even on the radar for anything. Generally people understand that you are likely working a current job and a) may not be able to answer your phone during the day, b) may not have an opportunity to check messages/return a call until a break.

    8. OhBehave*

      I email for the initial interview scheduling. I then call after that if they are moving on. Your vm should sound professional. After you get the job, change it to a more personal message.

  13. noise control*

    Hi everybody!
    Looking for suggestions for noise control in a shared office. My husband and I have been sharing an office since the pandemic started, and we’re decent office mates, but sometimes we have conflicting meeting schedule or an impromptu call and we try to go one at a time. I’ve looked into a mobile wall to separate us with noise control, but it was far more expensive than I’d like to spend. I’m looking at the felt tiles to add to a couple strategic walls to dampen sound. The big goal is that we could both be on a call at the same time and our participants would not hear the spouse talking. Any suggestions?
    Thanks!

    1. Non commenting lurker who also WFH*

      I am not certain this would work but have you thought about getting a more directional mic or headset to capture the sound?

      Ask work about a headset first but could be worth looking into.

      I work in the same space as my brother who is on a lot more calls than me. Luckily we work for the same company so I usually give a disclaimer the first time I unmute if i can hear him in a call but until my mic recently broke and I started having to use my laptop’s internal mic it rarely came up even though his volume and call frequency has not changed.

      1. Zephy*

        I agree, a very directional microphone and noise-canceling headphones would probably be better than mobile walls. My husband is a musician, so for a while his Zoom/Discord/whatever setup for audio input was a very directional stage mic; we’ve streamed/Discord-chatted/gamed with friends online while both of us were in the same room, sitting probably 6-8 feet apart, and my crappy omnidirectional gaming headset would pick up his voice but his mic wouldn’t pick up mine because I wasn’t in the line of fire, so to speak.

    2. Reba*

      You could experiment with sound-muting software, too. Supposed to be more sophisticated versions of the Zoom or whatever settings to suppress background sounds. I’ve been using one called Krisp, and it works really well on dog barks and squeaky toy sounds :)

    3. anonymous73*

      I don’t know what’s out there in the world of noise cancelling headphones, but if they have an option to cancel noise outside of your own voice maybe invest in those?

      My husband and I share an office too sometimes, but thankfully we haven’t had any conflicting meetings yet. If I have to be on camera, I make him leave the room sometimes because he sits behind me. I have 2 laptops and work on 2 different projects, so it’s not as easy for me to unplug and relocate.

    4. *daha**

      “noise cancelling microphone” is a thing. Plus, as others have said, it definitely helps to have a headset with a microphone on a boom that is just in front of or just under your mouth. The volume of your voice hitting the microphone is high because it is so close – other voices in the room are much lower in what the microphone will feed out.

  14. Rusty Shackelford*

    Things you wanted to say to your coworkers this week, but didn’t!

    I know you think I’m joking. I’m really, really, really not joking.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      In keeping with the new rule I’m trying out, let’s skip this one this week (but feedback on the rule itself is welcome as I try to decide whether to make it permanent). Thank you!

  15. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How is everyone doing on the health tip? My job made me take FMLA(??) Because I was down with the COVID. How do you think your company is dealing with covid as pro infection rules start to trickle back in?

    1. Dobby is a Free Elf!*

      I’m freelance, so I set my own Covid-related rules, but my husband caught Covid from our kids a few weeks ago. He also works from home.

      His employer fussed at him for logging in and working when he got bored. (He mostly had cold symptoms.)

    2. JanetM*

      Mine just declared, “Wearing a mask is always an option for any individual who chooses to do so,” and “It is up to all of us to make informed decisions about our health,” but is no longer asking people to wear masks.

      Me, I’m starting to feel concerned about wearing a mask lest people think I’m unvaccinated.

      1. Silvercat*

        I hadn’t thought about that, but I suspect many people who aren’t vaccinated are also not bothering to mask, at least around here. And way I figure, it’s better for random folks to think badly of me than for me to put mysslf and my family at risk

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Don’t worry about what other people think of you. If you feel safer wearing your mask, keep wearing it.

        My workplace stopped requiring masks this week too, but my family includes immunocompromised people and people under age five who can’t be vaccinated yet, so I’m going to keep wearing this mask as long as I need to in order to keep my family protected.

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          Yea I went to the office briefly when I had covid and when I work I mask so it went from ” oh no ” to ” rude!”

      3. Database Developer Dude*

        Choosing to wear a mask when in close contact with others doesn’t automatically mean you’re unvaccinated. I wear one, and I’m fully vaccinated and boosted. I also have someone at home who is immunocompromised, so I really don’t give a rip what others think. Let them think what they want.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I’d assume the reverse – most people masking are responsible people who have been vaccinated, with the occasional person who is unable to be vaccinated, while the people who insist that COVID isn’t real/serious, or vaccination is an attempt to microchip us, will be the ones deliberately refusing to wear masks under any circumstances.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            This. My family always wears masks and we will keep doing so until WE feel certain it’s safe enough to suit our own risk tolerance; not when somebody else makes a political decision about them. But I’ve never had anybody act *more* nervous about me, or suggest in any way that they think I’m more of a risk to them, or likely to be unvaccinated (I’ve got my booster, as we all do) or anything like that. Not once. Mostly, people see the mask and it makes them less nervous, if they care at all — there are some people who think I’m foolish to bother, sure, but that’s their own business; I don’t care what they think. But the ones who would be concerned about their own risk are more comfortable around me for masking, not less.

      4. Everything Bagel*

        I’m vac/boosted and I still wear my mask at work even though my company said this week that masks are no longer required. I’m not the only one. I’m going to wait a while to see if cases increase again in my area before I’ll consider taking my mask off at work. Let people think what they want. Some people couldn’t get vaccinated due to medical conditions. There’s nothing wrong with saying I am vaccinated but I’m being extra careful until cases go down in our area, or whatever you are willing to share with others.

      5. Elizabeth West*

        I’m not taking mine off until I have health insurance and PTO. If other people don’t like it, they can go jump in the lake.
        I will gladly answer that question if asked. And yes, I’m fully vaccinated and boosted.

    3. Silvercat*

      I’m slowly going nuts. I just started a job at a medical company, where you’d think people would be better informed. But lots of people are wearing just surgical masks, fabric masks, masks that don’t fit, or wearing them under their nose. While I have a silicone mask from Castlegrade that’s as good as a N95 and doesn’t fog up my glasses. We’re all tested once a week (it was twice a week when I interviewed) but think of all the people you’re in contact with during a week!

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        In fairness, there are a couple of fabric masks that are as good as an N95 also. Check out Sonovia. I don’t doubt you that most of the people you’re working with are being idiots about their mask choice, but you can’t assume that somebody is automatically being foolish because you see a fabric exterior; the filters are inside.

        I was very annoyed this afternoon, because I was asked to switch from my Sonovia N95 equivalent (I’ve seen their test results) into a surgical mask when I was at the doctor’s office. I’m sorry, but no; your surgical masks aren’t safe enough for me! I did have some actual N95s on me, and offered to switch to one of those instead, because I understood that they couldn’t tell what kind of fabric mask I had on and I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, and that was accepted, so it worked out. But if I hadn’t been carrying them, I would have had to *reduce* my protection — both for myself and for the people around me — because of their policy, and that suggests a problem with the policy. If someplace is going to ask you to wear their masks instead of your own, they should give out KN95s at minimum.

    4. J*

      Mine told us 1) we need to be back ASAP, 2) they are dropping all vaccine and masking rules, 3) they’ll be opening to the public again with no precautions, and 4) they won’t offer any leave for anyone sick minus our regular PTO. We’re a place that specifically hires a higher percentage of disabled employees (including me) and serves high risk communities and this isn’t what I signed up for. I don’t think it’s ethical to not even acknowledge the risk. It’s not even what they told us in September. They also don’t have policies for if things get bad again. So I’m job hunting.

    5. Pam Adams*

      My university system has re-approved Covid leave, and has been pretty flexible about allowing people to work from home when they are quarantined or have symptoms.

      California State University

    6. abbynormal*

      My office has remained super strict, but very accommodating. They put a vaccine mandate in place last year so everyone is vaxxed or medically exempt.We are all still required to mask with KN95 masks (provided by the company). Any mild Covid symptoms? Rapid test (also work provided) if you have no known exposures, or PCR. No return to work until 7 days post-exposure with a negative pcr, or 10 days after a positive pcr with 2negative rapids at day 8 and 10 post PCR test. I was out for 2 weeks for exposures in January, and 3 weeks when my whole family got it, and all of it was paid. They’re strict, but doing a really good job. The only thing they have relaxed on is we don’t have to strictly stay in department zones any longer. I feel like I’ve been lucky

  16. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Is it normal to constantly have pay issues as a contractor? My pay check from the company I contract for has been short almost each time this year. Work that I do isn’t counted properly for the current period so whatever shortage occurs is paid in the next period. My point of contact explained that there’s errors or delays in teh reporting system they use to track payments for contractors.

    They’re not “huge” amounts, like $15-60, but it does leave me a little anxious as this is my primary income for now and I can never be sure that I’ll be receiving. On my end I try to keep a buffer in my budgeting so that a shortage won’t be hurting me. At most, it makes it a little annoying to reconcile my spreadsheet with theirs since half the time the report isn’t available, and I can’t copy/paste any data from there.

    (FWIW I was an employee with them for 5 years prior to this and I never had any issues with my paycheck when working there AND so far they have always made errors right on the next check. so I don’t think this is a case of them trying to screw me over…just a really crappy report system I think).

    (also if it matters – I am contracting with a second company as well and no issues there but it’s like 70/30 time commitment for now).

    1. Antilles*

      No, it is not common to “constantly” have issues.
      If you just started contracting with them, maybe the first time or two when they get stuff set up. And occasionally, someone might miss approving an expense or something.
      But it certainly shouldn’t be an every single week thing.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I began working with them last year but didn’t have issues. The company changed the pay terms effective 1/1 to something a bit more complicated where we get partially paid up front and the remainder once completed. I’ve had 4 paychecks so far and 3 of them have been short.

    3. I was told there would be llamas*

      What are the pay terms? If you’re only paid every 60 days or something like that, ask to amend the contract to change the pay terms to monthly…then at least you’re not waiting so long to catch errors and catch up on pay.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Every 2 weeks, same as employees. From my past experience as an employee there, managers would have a post mortem after busy season to discuss how to change things for the coming year but as someone 1000% remote with no face or voice time, I’m not sure how to convey my complaint…..

  17. Should I Apply?*

    Thoughts on “full day” interviews being spread over two days? I am currently in the final round of interviews, 6, 45 min interviews. Pre-covid it would be a 1-day in person marathon. Now the interviews are virtual and spread across 2 days. I see the benefit for the company as it’s probably easier to schedule for them, but for me I have to take time off during two separate days. Its definitely less intense / draining than an all day interview, which I appreciate. However, its given me too much time to over analyze my 1st couple interviews, focusing on all the things I did wrong.
    So which do you think you would prefer – getting all of it done in 1 day or spreading out the interviews over multiple days?

    1. Raboot*

      I had one of these recently. I was actually asked if I preferred doing all 4-5 hours in one day or split and chose split. In this case it worked out well because after the first half I could already tell I didn’t want to continue and was able to graciously decline day 2. Also, I’d done 5 hours in one day the previous week and it was exhausting, and my voice just about died. Splitting it avoided that issue. I completely agree with what you say about taking time off being harder when it’s split, but when a candidate is able to, there can be benefits too.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Personally, I would prefer the split, because I find video interviews more draining than in person ones. I also have the privelege of a flexible schedule and don’t use much vacation time, so I probably wouldn’t need to take time off (or could afford it if needed).

    3. Loulou*

      I would feel the same as you — having to take two days off is much more difficult logistically than one. A full day of zoom does sound awful, but I don’t even know what excuse I would come up with to take two afternoons in a row off.

  18. NYC Nonprofit*

    If you and your former boss work at the same company, is it bad etiquette to ask them for a reference using your work email account?

    I transferred depts awhile back, and am now looking for a new job outside of the company. I want to ask my ex-boss from my previous dept for a reference. Is it bad form to ask him using the work email accounts we both already share? I could technically email him from my personal email address, but thought that would be weirder to do since we are still working at the same company.

    1. Xaraja*

      If it was me i would try to contact him outside of the work system entirely. Can you connect on LinkedIn or something?

    2. Lady Danbury*

      Personal email to personal email unless you’re ok with your company knowing that you’re looking.

    3. anonymous73*

      I don’t think it’s a question of etiquette, it’s a question of does your current manager and/or company know that you’re looking to leave? Because if you use your work email it’s possible that someone else will find out.

    4. NYC Nonprofit*

      Thanks all! Yeah, I’m not sure. He’s only ever been completely professional in the past, so I have no reason to believe he would sabotage me. Do you think the concern is that he might tell my current manager that I’m looking? aka, have more loyalty to my current manager than to me? Or is the concern more that someone else could end up seeing the email I send him through some sort of other fluke?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        “He’s only ever been completely professional in the past, so I have no reason to believe he would sabotage me.”

        I suggest reframing this. As a manager, FormerManager would have a responsibility to let the company know you’re using company resources to job search (that stretches the meaning of “using company resources”, I know) especially if he was acting as a reference. So it’s professional of him to share with CurrentCompany.

        Being contacted off hours, via a personal email, makes it more allowable to not say anything.

      2. Kay*

        Can you speak to them in person? Before doing this, I would weigh what you know of your former manager, current manager, and your company structure, as well as the risk to you if your company finds out. You are asking them to potentially withhold relevant business information from their colleagues and employer. In some companies this wouldn’t be an issue at all, in others there could be serious blowback if it ever came out that they knew and failed to mention it, perhaps during some pertinent discussion where this could be need to know information.

        Personally I would try to use any other references, and if I had to use this former manager I would wait until you were into the final stages of interviewing before asking, I would have a discussion in person and frame it as “would you be interested in being a reference for me should I ever need it” to feel things out, and if you can’t have a personal discussion I would do it outside of work email. Just because your former manager may not say anything, doesn’t mean your email couldn’t get stumbled upon for any number of other innocuous reasons. Good luck!

        1. Jonquil*

          Yep, talk in person, or phone call. Nothing that can be monitored by the company and no paper trail.

  19. Grits McGee*

    Any advice for working with a supervisor who doesn’t always have all of her ducks in a row before giving directions? My boss is great in so many ways, but she has a habit of jumping in with instructions before I have a chance to give her all of the necessary context; or, she doesn’t keep up with organizational changes, and gives outdated instructions. This is a persistent issue that has caused problems in the past. Obviously it’s unprofessional and undermining to say “Are you sure about that….?” in response to everything she says, but that’s what it feels like I’m doing to her every time I need to ask for guidance.

    1. Xena*

      Would it be possible to provide her with the context ahead of time? Send her an email that she can read through before?

      Otherwise, the phrase “my understanding was that X in our structure prohibits us from doing Y in response to Z. Could you clarify what you meant by suggesting Y?” is probably going to be your best friend.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Yeah, I usually either send her an email summary of what I need her input on, or forward her the chain- she just usually either skims it and misses a lot or doesn’t read it at all. Usually things are pretty convoluted by the time I need her to weigh in, so I completely understand why she she’s not seeing the whole picture, but it’s a major issue.

        1. urguncle*

          If/When I ever manage people, one of my sticking points is going to be never to be sent just email chains with no recap if you want me to weigh in. If I wanted to read poorly formatted and cryptic information, I would get on a Reddit thread. I would try to send a straightforward recap of the email threads with what you see as possible next steps. This saves her some time from wading through “Hello Diana!”s and “per my last email”s and condenses it to “What, so what and now what.” This is also a great way for her to see your decision-making skills!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Can you push back when she interrupts, with a cheerful reciprocal interruption:

      You: I have a question about the plank-a-thon. See, I…
      Boss: (jumps in before you can finish)
      You: (interject) “Oh, I think l there’s more context that you need. See, we found… And the new protocol is… Given that, what do you think we should?”

      You may need to practice 1) Interrupting and 2) Not pausing so Boss can’t interrupt you.

    3. anonymous73*

      I’d bring it up in a general sense when you meet with her, outside of when she’s actually interrupting with her instructions. Tell her you appreciate her support, but that you’d like her to listen to you in full before she provides any guidance or feedback. As far as using outdated instructions I’m not sure how you get around that unless you can do some research and adjust accordingly.

    4. Stoppin' by to chat*

      I think the crux of this is assuming it’s unprofessional to explain why someone is incorrect. I would say that’s exactly the time to clarify. It’s not about professionalism. It’s that you have information you manager may not have since they presumably have other priorities, so I see it as part of your job to explain some context they may not have. However, they also sound like they jump in with randomness, which is also annoying. But if you approach sharing context as part of your job, then maybe that will help you feel more confident explaining why your boss’ idea or direction won’t work.

  20. Paris Geller*

    My fiancé and I are eloping soon (two weeks from today!) and I could use some advice navigating it at work. My coworkers know that I’m engaged–I’m not intensely private like some people, but I’m also not as open with my personal life as many of my coworkers are. My workplace generally celebrates milestones and will throw wedding/baby showers, holiday celebrations, etc. though they’re very good about *not* doing celebrations if the person being celebrated doesn’t want it. I’m just not sure how to approach the conversation. We’re getting married on a Friday, and I took off Thursday & Friday–advice on telling people before/after? Would it be weird to preemptively tell my boss I don’t want a big celebration, but a card or something is fine? I don’t want to act like entitled to a card or congratulations, but I’d also like to fend off a larger celebration. I’m also hyphenating my last name so I’d rather people know in advance so they don’t get thrown when the see my new email signature, my name in our online directory, etc.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I just said the day before I left “we’re eloping so I won’t be checking email on my days off, see you next week!”. There was a small cake when I got back which was nice. You don’t need to make a big thing out of it, but saying a card would be fine doesn’t sound entitled. I wouldn’t worry too much about your name, people will figure it out.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Oh, for clarity: I’m not worried about people adjusting to my new name–I meant more I would like them to know ahead of time I’m getting married so they’re not thrown by the fact I have a new last name, not the name itself! Typing my questions in a hurry today in between projects. But this is good advice, thank you!

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Can you announce it instead of just talking to your boss? Ooh or put it in your OOO? “I’m getting married this weekend, please note my name will be Geller-Doyle upon return. I’ve chosen to forego a celebration at work, thanks for understanding! See you next week.”

          1. Everything Bagel*

            I don’t think this is appropriate as an out-of-office response, but maybe just sending this email to your coworkers would be helpful.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      If you want people to know before you come back, I think sending a quick email before you leave on Wednesday might be a good idea. That way, you can control the messaging and have it be whatever level of formal or fancy as you’re comfortable with. Just “Doyle and I are happy to announce that we’ll be getting married this weekend, and when I come back to the office I’ll be using the name Paris Geller-McMaster,” with whatever other details you want them to know.

      Congratulations on your upcoming elopement, I hope it’s wonderful!

      1. Raboot*

        I like this because it sets the tone as warm and friendly. Like how Alison often says you can often get the response you want by speaking as if OBVIOUSLY your audience will agree with you. A message like this kne doesn’t come off as apologetic about the timing or “secrecy” or anything, just “this is good news, aren’t you happy for me” which seems perfect.

      2. LC*

        That’s basically what I did, and it worked great.

        I told my boss when I asked for the time off because it was in the middle of the very, very busy season with required overtime and PTO was denied, so they wouldn’t have okay’d it without a good reason (and some managers still wouldn’t have, but my manager at the time was a lovely person who was happy for me and happy to make the time off work).

        And this wouldn’t work the same with remote work, but I also mentioned it to one or two of the people I was closer to, and usually in earshot of others, so it at least partially spread before I even sent the “I’ll be out for the next two days, we’re running off to get married! And I’ll be switching to Elle See when I get back, but I promise it’s still me!” (My given last name is very distinctive and my new last name is much more common, so I definitely felt the need to share that.)

        Also, I’d suggest signing the email with your new last name in the signature, even if the actual email name hasn’t changed yet.

    4. The Wizard Rincewind*

      As someone who also married without informing anyone at the office until after it happened, I kept it casual. I took a long weekend, got married, then at the next weekly meeting, when my boss said “So, anyone do anything fun this weekend?” I responded, “Yeah, actually, [Spouse] and I got married. Small ceremony, just family, it was lovely. Anyone else have a good story?” My team responded to the cue really well and the only celebration I received was a nice card from my boss and a shout-out at the following staff meeting.

      I didn’t change my name, though, so no advice there. I think in general that if you’re calm but pleased, people will follow that lead and respond to your level of enthusiasm. However, I’m the only woman on my team so it’s possible that those guys just didn’t care as much about *~wedding~* stuff as much as others might.

      1. WellRed*

        I don’t think the name change needs to be such a big deal. Announce it beforehand or announce it afterward, like this.

    5. Belle of the Midwest*

      My director and his longtime partner got married three years ago. The way he handled it was telling us at a team meeting the week before. “Partner and I are getting married this weekend. We are just having a civil ceremony with our kids and my brother attending. So when I come back on July 30, I’ll be a married man!” We all said congratulations and then we went on with the agenda. He’s a really chill guy to begin with and he just kept it short and sweet.

    6. Haha Lala*

      Congrats!

      I agree with other comments, you can email an announcement before you leave, or have it auto-send after everyone’s left for the day, or first thing that Thursday morning.

      Is there someone in the office that usually heads the celebrations/cards? You can tell them directly (either before or when you get back) that you don’t want a party, and that should do it. Or if you have a close work friend, let them know ahead of time, and they can speak for you when it comes up.

      Will you also need to clue in your IT/HR in order to get your name updated? Official name change paper work take awhile (especially with SS offices still being closed due to Covid…), but depending on your office they might be able to change your name internally before they change it for payroll/taxes. If you change your email address to match your hyphenate name, you could have it set up in advance so you can send your announcement from that address.

      When I got married, I changed my name but didn’t formally announce it to my office or any of my contacts. I took a week off, and people I worked with regularly new I was getting married, and other people didn’t know until they saw emails from my new name. (I also kept my maiden name in my signature so it was pretty clear to everyone what happened). A handful of people were surprised and and said congrats, and then went about business as usual.

    7. Midwest Manager*

      Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials! My spouse and I eloped, and it was amazing. I recommend telling your manager the day before your time off, as in “I’m looking forward to the time off. Fergus and I are getting married on Friday, but we’re trying to keep it low-key.” Be sure to ask for resources for updating your name/email address and any benefits that will need to be changed (switching to family plan, life insurance beneficiary, etc.). You can take care of the paperwork after you get the completed marriage certificate (and updated D/L and social security card), but remember that there is often a limited window where the insurance stuff can be changed.

      Enjoy your wedding, I wish the best for you and your fiancee!

    8. anonymous73*

      I would tell them once you come back. And I would say something to your manager about your feelings on office celebrations. Don’t hint around about what you want, just tell her clearly. I made sure that those I was closest to at work knew that I 100% did not want any type of celebration at the office when I got married. I don’t like to be the center of attention, and my wedding shower and walking down the aisle on the day of the wedding were enough for me to handle.

      Congratulations!

    9. AcademiaNut*

      If you’re in person, I’d be inclined to not say anything in advance, show up on Monday with a cake or box of fancy doughnuts, send out an email with the name change and announcement of treats.

    10. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I always thought one of the purposes of eloping was to NOT tell anyone beforehand, partly to avoid unwanted celebratory stuff.

  21. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    I work in a NPO. We’re forbidden from going over 40 hours per work week. Occasionally, coworkers will go slightly over 40 hours, like say 15 minutes, 20 minutes, etc. Never anything more than an hour.

    Recently, my coworkers have begun noticing that their managers have begun to “adjust” their employees’ electronic timecards so that they don’t have to pay overtime. So if i had worked 40.5 hours by the time i clock out on Friday, I’ll come back Monday and see that my time card was “adjusted” down to 40 hours, leaving me not getting paid that half hour of overtime.

    This isn’t legal is it? What can i do?

    2. WellRed*

      Point out calmly and matter if fact that this isn’t legal and “we could get in trouble for this.” They need to pay the back pay too.

    3. Pop*

      This is definitely illegal. Alison has a lot of scripts for how to approach this kind of thing, mostly approaching it from a “we” perspective – you and the company are a team, and so you wouldn’t want to do anything illegal. However, the company can also start disciplining you for working overtime aka refusing to follow directions, including firing you. So, if you think that they may get stricter, it may be worth it to forego the fuss – up to you.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        they always encouraged us to stay at our 40 but understood sometimes our jobs required us to get overtime (before covid i was authorized overtime and was averaging 42-48 hours a week with no issue) but only within the past few months we were told no overtime at all whatsoever even though our workload has stayed the same if not increased. within the past couple months they’ve started the timecard thing.

        1. Cold Fish*

          You could do the “of course” trick that Alison talks about…. “The extra half hour I spent on Tues because of X isn’t on my time, of course this was a system error. The company can get in a lot of trouble not paying employees for time worked!”

          Don’t sign or approve the time card if you notice time missing. Keep track of any discrepancies if they keep happening.

        2. Can Can Cannot*

          If you are told “no overtime” is allowed, then you need to stop working at 40 hours. If you don’t, you will need to be paid but you could be fired for now following a direct order.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Yes its illegal. But also, you know they don’t want you doing overtime. So don’t. It doesn’t matter if its 15 minutes. Clock out/leave on time, every time, without fail. If something doesn’t get done that day/week, it can get done the next week.

      If they have chosen the path of no overtime, then they also have chosen the consequences of no overtime.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        Unfortunately we deal in patient and community care and we can’t just up and go at 5PM. We also get disciplined for incomplete work. (We’re also told we’re not good enough, not working hard enough etc).

        some of my coworkers have resorted to clocking out and returning to work

        1. Cj*

          It is not an option for them to have it both ways.

          First I would ask them what you are supposed to do if you are in the middle of a task when your shift is up. Do this as a group, so it’s not just coming from you, and so that everybody gets the same answer.

          Since you are in patient care and can’t walk out in the middle of changing their IV bag or whatever, I would continue to work overtime if they don’t have a good answer regarding solving this issue. But insist on being paid for it. Bring it up to HR, to their legal department if they have one, or report them to the State Labor Board if necessary.

          If you think you will be retaliated against for bring it to HR or legal, and can do so anonymously to the State Labor Board, I would go directly to them. Because this is happening to multiple employees, they probably won’t be able to figure out exactly who reported them.

          Health Care is so understaffed right now as it is, I don’t see how companies think they can continue to treat employees this and not have them jump ship.

    5. Anon in NY*

      If you are forbidden to work overtime as you say, they must still pay you but you can be disciplined for not following the rule. Why is anyone working overtime with this rule in place?

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        we’re in patient and community care so we can’t just up and leave once the clock strikes 5. we’re expected to be in at a certain time but occasionally things will pop up at the end of the day (or we’re dealing with a particular patient/community member) that just take us a bit longer.

        1. Dr. Prepper*

          You have been told “absolutely no overtime.” As already stated, if you still work over anyway, you may be disciplined or fired. Under US labor laws, it is the duration of the WORK that is the issue, so clocking out and coming back to chart, etc. still falls under overtime rules (as is reading/responding to emails and the like for the WFH crowd.)

          I’d go to the manager(s) and pointedly demand to know their policies for what you should do if you hit 8 hours and give specific scenarios – “…and I’m still with a patient,” “if I’m not done with charting” – a written policy would be even better.

          Reminds me of my New York City gigs where folks would just get up during afternoon meetings in mid-sentence with a “Sorry, got to catch my train…” and no one would even blink.

        2. Jean*

          In that case, what they’re doing is wage theft and can get them in very hot water with the DOL. Bring it to your manager’s attention, and if it continues, report it.

    6. Haha Lala*

      Have you asked your manager about it? If they really want you to only work 40hours, then either you need to be able to ‘drop dead’ right at stop time, or be able to leave early or take a longer break to make up for it later that week.
      If they don’t give you a clear answer, then start the malicious compliance–make it clear when something will put you into overtime, and make them ‘approve’ it. And if they don’t approve it, then don’t do it and leave. And document everything. Start taking screenshots of your timesheet, and make sure to save them somewhere besides your work computer/server.

      Also, in all my jobs, we’ve logged time in 30minute increments– meaning if I tried to log an 8hr 10 min day, it’d be rounded down to 8 hrs. If you’re noticing differences of 20 minutes or so over the course of the week, that could be it as well– But that’s a company policy that I’ve has explained to me at each company, so the boss should be able to give you a clear policy on that as well.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        We’ve been told “this isn’t a job you can only do Monday through Friday.” And basically we’re called to do bits of work here and there no matter what, even if we’re off the clock.

        I was actually written up in the past because i didn’t answer my emails, Teams messages, text messages, or phone calls from work (on my personal cell phone) fast enough while i was on PTO and dealing with a family crisis (family is luckily okay now).

        Our time card does not round up or down on its own, it counts every minute. Sometimes I’m at 40.01 hours (we get crap for that too, believe it or not) or whatever. We have the ability to clock in or out from our work computers or our cell phones, but management says we’re only allowed to use one of two stations. In the morning/ evening rush where there’s like 20 people crowding the stations, it’s easy to end up clocking in or out a few minutes late, especially on a Friday.

        Plus, we also work community events, so we do come in late/ leave early some days to allow time for the event but if we’re stuck working it even a few minutes later, the extra time gets removed. But if say the event is canceled or ends early, we’re just left with a shortage of hours.

        Our time cards literally count and pay you for every minute, the adjustments are 100% made by management.

        1. Speaks to Dragonflies*

          Wow, your managers are sounding more and more shady. Hard stop,no overtime to the point of adjusting time cards, yet saying this isn’t a “9 to 5” kind of job? Red flags seem to be a sprouting. My advice would be document, screenshoot, gather any proof of this shadyness and stash it where management can’t get to it. Do your job they way you are supposed to taking care of folks, and if/when they try to give you trouble, or you decide to move on, drop a dime to the DOL with all that evidence. And see if your coworkers will do the same. When ya drop that bomb, make it a BIIIIIIIIG bomb.

    7. Anima*

      Wow, not I’m the US and that wouldn’t fly here for a day. (That’s why unions are important, folks.) If you are in patient care you can not be expected to drop all work at 40 h on the dot. I would push back as a group like, yesterday. (And then unionize if possible.)

    8. LGC*

      Pretty much what everyone said. That said…your organization 1) can implement a rounding policy – although I think it has to be equitable, in that it can’t just round down – and 2) can explicitly forbid you from working more than 40 hours per week. Which is what they probably should be doing if they’re going to be that penny-pinching about an hour of OT per week.

      (IME, it’s likely that upper management got whiny about the fact that there was OT how dare they misappropriate funds and then the managers took it upon themselves to make ~*~adjustments~*~ instead of – y’know – doing their jobs. So if your direct boss is giving you a bad response, you can go over their heads.)

      So, yeah, point out that this is ~*~kinda illegal~*~ (they might say that employees punching in early is the real wage theft, but that – IMO – is BS). If it’s that big of a deal, possibly report it to the state labor board, but that’s a huge escalation.

      I’ll also speak to your comment about your coworkers working off the clock: this is something I would yell loudly at an employee for. (In fact, this is something I’ve yelled loudly at people for.)

  22. Neon Dreams*

    I’m having trouble retaining focus on my newer job. I went from a fast paced back to back calls all the time in customer service to being on my own. It’s a welcome change and I don’t think I could’ve carried on any longer in the old place. Yet because I don’t have someone dictating to me anymore, my focus isn’t fully there. I understand how to do this job’s work, but it’s pretty boring. So, I procrastinate quite a bit. I have reasons to suspect I have adult ADHD (been doing some research and my symptoms are a 90%-95% match). That evaluation isn’t until May. How do I keep up in the meantime? I haven’t missed any deadlines in the new gig. But I don’t want to slip up and lose this.

    1. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Can you make yourself a daily schedule? 8:00-8:30: check email, 8:30-9:30: Task X. Then use timers and alarms and calendar alerts to make sure you stick to it.

    2. AdequateArchaeologist*

      The Pomodoro method helps me a lot. It’s 25 min work/ 5 min break. Repeat 4 times then you earn a long 15 minute break. There are various online timers and apps you can use.

      Also, if you know you’re more productive ta a certain time of day, try to get all your work done then so when you’re kind of phoning it in later, the bulk of your tasks are already done.

    3. LC*

      There was a post about two weeks ago (search the site for “can you really ever get past being a procrastinator?”) that had some really awesome suggestions in the comments.

      ADHDer here, and there were a ton of us in that comment section too, we’re basically experts, lol.

      I think one of the biggest game changers for me (and it’s a work in progress, it’ll always be a struggle) was realizing and actually accepting that what works for many people may not work for me, and that’s okay. So if you get 10 people telling you “This worked perfectly, I’m cured!” and you try it and it’s absolutely horrible, that is okay and now you know and you can use that knowledge to try something else and you don’t need to force yourself to do it that way. Take all the tips you see and try different things out and hold on to the things that work and let go of the things that don’t.

      (Pomodoro method is actually a great example. I hated it until I allowed myself to use a different number of minutes that you normally see suggested, sometimes with the working period shorter than the break. It doesn’t always work for me, but when it does, it only does when I do it my way.)

      1. LC*

        Oh, also, when I had a similar transition, at my new company, I’d get a lot of “hey can do you this whenever you get a chance?” without a deadline attached. That was awful and I hated it. So I started asking when they’d like it by and if they kept with the “oh, whenever” then I’d suggest something (“does end of day Thursday sound okay?” or something), forcing the expectation onto myself. A self-imposed deadline doesn’t work if I just set it for myself, but if someone else is expecting it now, even if I’m the one that actually came up with the deadline, that helps.

        Obvs a fairly specific situation, but wanted to share in case it’s relevant.

    4. Procrastinator professional*

      I am horrible about procrastinating things I don’t want to do and one thing that is probably most effective for me is accountability. For example, if there is a task that I am dreading and know that I will procrastinate on, I’ll make sure to mention that task in my check-ins with my boss. That way I will work on that thing knowing my boss will ask about it later and the discomfort of saying I haven’t done it outweighs whatever is causing me to procrastinate it.

      To be candid, I suspect I have ADHD and I wish this wasn’t the way to motivate myself to get things done, but it has worked so I’ll keep doing it. Timers, calendar reminders, etc. are too easy for me ignore!

    5. Former Gremlin Herder*

      I went through a similar change this year (teaching to office job that’s largely self directed) and it is a tough transition! I did wind up getting diagnosed with ADHD earlier this year, and just knowing that has helped me reframe things so that I’m not so hard on myself. I second what others have said about finding what truly works for you-I personally need external structure and novelty, so while Pomodoro worked well for a few weeks, it’s much less effective now. The things that help me right now are very visible calendars with deadlines, having a set playlist for working that has pump up music or even podcasts my brain likes for extra stimulation, trying something for “just five minutes” to see if I can get in the flow, a tactile to do list that I enjoy checking and updating, and taking breaks when I feel I’m becoming less effective. One thing I do when I do start to slip on long term assignments is ask a colleague or supervisor if I can set myself a due date and then check in with them when something is complete-it tricks my brain into thinking it’s a “real” deadline. Obviously, this depends on your boss-mine have been great and haven’t batted an eye when I ask for accountability help, but YMMV. Good luck!!

      1. J.B.*

        I think one thing about ADHD that I’ve seen with my kids is the method by which I hold them accountable is less helpful once it’s less novel, so having several different options you can switch between is a great idea.

    6. Cold Fish*

      I have an app on my phone called Forest. I set the time (10 min – 2 hours), hit the “Plant” button and do my best to work until the app lets me know times up. At the end of the time a plant or tree is planted in the “forest” on my app. When I’m really struggling and need to get something out I use it. If I’m really struggling I’ll assign my own prize for finishing (Ex. if I plant two trees today I’ll stay up and watch an extra episode on the show I’m binging)

    7. anonymous73*

      I make lists. Physical, in a notebook with check boxes, lists. I’m always early and have never missed a major deadline, but I tend to procrastinate more when I have less to do. So seeing what I need to get done with due dates helps me stay on track and focused.

    8. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I have severe inattentive ADHD. I started working with an ADHD coach in January who has been super helpful. One of the strategies that has helped me a lot is a website called focusmate dot com – you sign up for a 25 or 50 minute session with a random accountability partner. It’s a video call, but there’s very little interaction involved. At the beginning of the session you just say what you want to get done, e.g. “I want to get at least 2 sections of this report done.” and the other person says what their goal for the session is. Then you go on mute and do your work until the timer goes off, at which point you go back to your call and report to your partner on how successful you were.

      Also, because ADHD coaching isn’t covered by insurance, most coaches don’t require any sort of proof of diagnosis. So that might be worth looking into if you’ve got the symptoms.

      1. Mouse*

        I was going to suggest FocusMate. *Such* a huge difference in the last few weeks since I found it. My struggles tend to be with task initiation and transitions, so scheduling sessions when I know that’s likely to be an issue (beginning of the day, after lunch, after a meeting-heavy stretch) makes it a lot easier to get in a rhythm.

        You could do also a similar “co-working” call (check in with goals, mute and set a timer for working time, check in and report results) with a coworker, friend, etc.

  23. Polka Dot Sweater*

    I need to take a quick poll and garner some advice, please.

    Context: Toxic workplace, but I’m unhappy in my actual role. The workplace itself may be on the upswing.

    Potential paths forward:
    1. Do I apply for a leadership job in my current workplace that is an excellent resume builder, a job that I’ll likely enjoy more than my current one, and is a chance to help tune down the toxicity. But also stay in a terribly toxic workplace?

    2. My dream job will likely open up at a different business in 6 months. Do I wait it out in my misery and apply for that one? (I know it’s a “dream” job and not all dreams are actually dreamy, but just trust me on this one and roll with the question, please).

    3. Do I jump ship and just go find a new job anywhere else where I can succeed and me happy.

    If I do 1 or 3, can I reasonably apply for the dream job in 6 months and not be seen as “jumping ship” and damaging my reputation? Any thoughts, opinions, or otherwise?

    1. Nalgene*

      Start looking now. Why not? You might find something dreamy you can have right now instead of in six months, which seems the best of all the options you’ve listed. Good luck.

    2. irene adler*

      Golden opportunities don’t ever show up on your schedule. If the golden opportunity comes along 6 months after you’ve done #1 or #3, so be it. Pursue it.

      See, only you have your best interests at heart. So only you can take the steps to serve your best interests.

      You can buffer this by explaining to your current employer that this golden opportunity came along out of nowhere and you just could not pass it up. I’m sure they’ve had somewhat similar experiences in their past.

      Look at it this way: suppose you do #1 or #3 and 6 months after you start the new position, you are laid off (via a business downturn- not because of any issue on your part). Do you think the employer will ponder the 6 months question (“we hired Polka Dot Sweater only 6 months ago, maybe we should lay off someone else?”).

    3. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Don’t delude yourself into thinking that you can “change” a toxic workplace. You can’t. Just get out. Don’t wait for the “dream” job, just start applying now. Don’t fall victim to the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

      1. irene adler*

        Yeah- it may seem like being a member of management can give one an avenue to change things. But company culture runs deep. Especially if those higher up do not appreciate changes. Even changes to improve things like the bottom line, morale.

    4. Kes*

      I mean you can apply to the leadership position and also keep looking for other jobs. a) you don’t know if you’ll get the leadership position, b) it could give your resume a boost that you could leverage in your search if you do get it, c) you don’t know what else is out there, that could be even better than the other ‘dream’ job, and d) if your workplace is toxic you need to get out of there and sooner is better. I don’t see the benefit of pinning your hopes on one approach when you can pursue them all and see what materializes. Really the only risk in doing this is that you find something else after a few months and have to decide whether to take it or hold out for dream job, but you’d still be the better for having options

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Apply to #1. Do you think the leadership job would give you a better chance at getting #2?
      There seems to be a bit of an assumption that you’d get #2 (?) – I wouldn’t put everything on hold for something 6 months out that isn’t definite.

    6. Cold Fish*

      All 3. If anything the forward momentum could help keep the toxicity at bay long enough to get out.

      Just because you get 1 doesn’t mean something might not come of 3. If you do find something in 3, doesn’t mean you can’t apply for 2 when that comes available.

      One caveat, I’d be wouldn’t turn something down in 3 to do 1. A toxic workplace isn’t likely to change and it’s probably best to just get out if the situation presents itself.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, I agree.
        Why limit yourself to 1 of the 3 options? Work it! Find out what these jobs are and what YOU actually want. Don’t just go for the easy-reach, check them all out.
        I also agree that a toxic workplace probably won’t change. If you can move on do so when opportunity strikes.

    7. anonymous73*

      I’d start looking for a new job. Life is too short to be unhappy with your job, especially when the environment is toxic. Never “wait it out and see” when you can find something else. I’ve stayed in several places for too long because I was comfortable, and either ended up losing my job or becoming so negative it was affecting my mental health.

    8. A Feast of Fools*

      D) All of the above.

      Apply for the leadership position in your current org while simultaneously looking for a new job.

      If Dream Job makes you an offer before you find a better job elsewhere, take Dream Job.

      If you find a better job elsewhere before Dream Job makes you an offer, take Better Job.

      If Dream Job is similar to how I got my current job, where an old manager at a past company moved to a new company and called me to say, “We have a spot opening up in 4 months and the role is yours if you want it,” then maybe stick out the six months in your current position.

      But if Dream Job involves interviews and any competition for the role whatsoever, start immediately on #1 and #3.

    9. Jonquil*

      I would do 1 and 2 – apply for the leadership role AND for whatever else is out there that looks interesting (not just “dream” roles). And if the “dream” role comes up in 6 months, well, Alison has lots of language around “it fell into my lap” and “too good to pass up” but honestly, I wouldn’t worry about disappointing them by leaving 6 months after a promotion (especially if the company is, as you say, toxic). It’s business, not personal.

  24. BetterPanda*

    Hello all!
    Just wanted to thank you for your support. I had posted late last year about a supervisor who was targeting me. According to her my performance, which was considered exceeds expectations prior to her, was suddenly substandard and she questioned my professional judgment and ability. I found a new position which is not only a promotion, but actually will allow me to specialize on the parts of my job I enjoy more. Thanks for helping me realize I wasn’t just a turd of an employee.

    1. Elle Woods*

      Congrats on the new role! I’m glad you were able to get away from your toxic supervisor.

    4. A Feast of Fools*

      This is great news!

      This site is one of the only — if not THE only — places on the internet where I read the comments. The vast majority is supportive and grounded in reality. I love when communities like this help one another.

  25. Lemon*

    A large startup in my country recently introduced period leave, and while I think it’s much needed, I worry that it will negatively impact the very people it’s supposed to help.

    My concerns are:
    1. People who don’t menstruate (and thus will not be entitled to this leave) may be resentful, resulting in overt or subconscious discrimination – e.g. not hiring/promoting women due to a concern that they’ll take many days off
    2. On those lines, the perception of misuse, as this is supposed to operate on a honor system. What if I genuinely need 3 days off but my colleagues think it’s overkill or that I’m lying? (I think the chance of actual misuse is rare, so not bringing that up)
    3. Personally, I am very private and can’t imagine having to inform my manager I’m taking leave because of my period (I would say the same for a dentist appointment btw! I just don’t like sharing any medical details, but maybe this is not a popular opinion/concern)

    Curious to know how you would combat these if you were a manager at a place that offered period leave, please share your thoughts!

    1. CatCat*

      Do not like.

      I do not think requiring people to talk about their very personal body situation by labeling it as something like “period leave” is comfortable for anyone. (Like I wouldn’t want to have to say I need “vomit leave” or “diarrhea leave” or “I can’t stop crying today leave” either.)

      Why not just give everyone more sick leave?

      1. Ali + Nino*

        Agree with increasing sick leave across the board. I brought this up last week or the week before with regard to leave specifically for miscarriages.

      2. Loulou*

        Yes, more sick leave/flexibility on sick leave seems like the obvious solution. There could also be sick leave policies that need changing to accommodate “period leave” (like if you need a doctor’s note after X consecutive days of absence) but there are ways to do that besides “period leave.”

    2. Xena*

      Not a fan.

      I think your concerns are spot on. This is definitely going to cause resentment – see comments anywhere about working parents. It is almost certainly going to cause discrimination of the kind you describe. And it feels really weird to tell your manager that you’re going to be off in so many words – I personally avoid saying anything beyond “I’m not feeling well” or “i have an appointment” unless it’s something pretty big that more actively impacts my work – “I broke my foot and will need a desk that can fit a wheelchair”.

      If i were a manager I’d probably go to bat for getting everyone another 2 weeks of sick leave and leave it at that.

    3. Kes*

      Yeah not a fan, can’t imagine having to tell my manager that I need to take this leave/why I need time off in this case, beyond being unwell in general. Much better to just give employees generous sick leave and leave (pun unintended) it at that

    4. Have you tried sparkling at it?*

      It’s a nice idea in theory, I guess, but I think they missed a far more obvious solution- giving people more unspecified sick leave. That way they can use it for lots of stuff- periods, frequent doctors appointments, therapy, mental health days, migraines, caretaking duties, covid scares, daycare closures, and any one of the zillion things that workplaces don’t seem to account for.

      1. Lily*

        Exactly. It’s absurd to single out periods for special sick days where there are so many other intermittent illnesses or life hiccups that people can have. I’m on birth control so I don’t have a period very often, but I have migraines. Why should I be able to take sick leave for the former but not the latter?

    5. Generic Name*

      Oh man, I super do not want my boss/company to know details of my monthly cycle. If they want to support folks who menstruate, they can increase everyone’s sick time across the board and update their employee manual to specifically state that taking time off due to needing to deal with period stuff counts is a permitted use of sick leave.

    7. MacGillicuddy*

      Yeah, just increase the sick time. Nobody should have to give details about why they’re taking sick leave.

      I think the same way about mental health days. Mental health is health just as physical health is health. You shouldn’t have to say “I’m taking a mental health day”. Saying you’re out sick is enough.

    8. Cj*

      This is one of the most bizarre and horrible policies I have ever heard of. It will definitely increase discrimination against women in the age bracket you’re talking about. Which is already an issue because some employers don’t want them to be taking maternity leave.

      I am all for increased sick leave across the board, I am not for sick leave based on a specific condition, no matter what it is. ( Covid being the exception to that, as it is both deadly and very contagious, and we need people to stay home when sick.)

      1. Erin*

        HIPAA does not apply here unless the employer is a medical clinic or health insurance business, etc and the staff are also patients.

      2. Clisby*

        Nothing to do with HIPAA. HIPAA restricts what information your medical providers can release about you. Generally speaking, it doesn’t restrict your employer at all. (As Erin says, it might restrict your employer if you happen to work for a health care provider and also are a patient of that health care provider.)

    10. AcademiaNut*

      I don’t like it.

      It’s not just the resentment part, but also the assumption that women are frail, gentle flowers who can’t possibly be expected to work while (gasp) menstruating. There certainly are women who have periods that cause significant impairment, but that should be treated the same way something like intermittent migraines or IBS flareups would, under regular sick leave.

    11. Sparkles McFadden*

      This is ridiculous. It’s like sending someone out of the village because they’re unclean. Want to help make work better for people with periods? Provide free period products.

      Yes, some people have period-related issues, but those are specific health problems. As someone else has already said, you take a sick day. You don’t take a diarrhea day. If someone has endometriosis, that person should get to take sick days as needed, just as someone with IBS or UC or any condition that flares up should be able to do.

    12. PollyQ*

      Hate it. Absolutely hate it. There are some people who menstruate who have very severe symptoms, and those should be dealt with the same as any other medical complaint, e.g. backaches or migraines. (Although I recognize that in some places, medical leave/sick days can be pretty scarce.) For the rest of us, who have mild to moderate symptoms, there’s no advantage at all to singling out periods for special treatment. I agree with your 3rd point, which is that making people specify the nature of their complaint to their bosses shouldn’t be necessary, and to your 2nd point, it absolutely shouldn’t be shared with colleagues. This 1000000% none of their business.

      And at least in the US, what is needed on a far wider basis is enough leave for parents who have sick children (which is pretty much all of them on a fairly frequent basis).

    13. Miel*

      Y’all get sick leave?

      I’m only half joking. My employer lumps sick leave in with PTO. As a person who rarely gets sick, it works out pretty well for me: extra vacation time!

      But it can really screw up people’s lives! If you get seriously sick or injured, you potentially can’t, say, visit your family for the holidays that year. (Obviously depends on the details, but I did have a coworker who hadn’t been able to take a vacation in three years because he had had a series of unfortunate health events.)

    14. Jonquil*

      I wonder the same about domestic violence leave (which we have at my job). Lots of people aren’t going to want to disclose that to their boss if they can avoid it. And there are other types of leave (personal, caring, moving house) that would cover a lot of situations.

      I can see a lot of issues around menstrual leave too. There are too many cases where someone might menstruate when they aren’t expected to (trans, non-binary or intersex people), or not menstruate when they are expected to (anyone who is pregnant, going through menopause, has had a hysterectomy, is on long-acting birth control, who is trans but not out at work), and the potential for discrimination is so high.

    15. Mameshiba*

      This is a common policy in Japan and Korea (perhaps other nearby countries, I’m not sure), you might look at the effects there. I believe it’s like 1 or a couple days allowed per month, not always paid.

      My personal experience is that in the last decade at any of my companies I have never heard of it being used, likely for reason #3, as menstruation is very taboo still here. If people never use it because they’re afraid of backlash/uncomfortable sharing medical details, then it’s not actually helping anyone. I think a key aspect of making this policy effective is having a large number of women in management–they can lead the way in openly taking leave, and lower level female workers may be more comfortable talking to a female manager about it.

      As far as trans workers and menstruation leave, I think your company would need very very robust D&I policies and a strong culture of acceptance to see adoption there. Based on the reluctance I have seen from workers who read female, I can’t imagine a worker who is perceived as male using this leave without incredible support and bravery.

  26. IDidIt*

    Well, I did the (previously) unthinkable and resigned from my job with nothing else lined up. I have an active job search going and about 6+ months of savings, plus the option for freelance or contract work in the interim. The goal is to find a new full-time gig that doesn’t suck and recover from the mental battering from the past year. My question is: what is the most efficient use of my time after my last day? Has anyone else been in this situation?

    1. Exhausted*

      I was in the same situation as you, and traditional job hunting didn’t yield satisfactory results (no bites for several months, and only a bad job at the end). I would say, start networking, having a friend be your reference would help get a foot in the door at least.

      1. Eether, Either*

        Volunteer someplace that aligns with your job skills, if possible. Depending on where you volunteer, you can also make great networking connections. And, you can add that experience to your resume. Good luck!!

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      I did this last summer.
      I spent the first few days just getting extra sleep and self-care. I also enjoyed the outdoors a lot – everything from long walks in nature to reading in a lawn chair to cocktails on the deck/around a fire pit.
      Then I tackled a few of the simpler things on my to do list (organize recipes, take the load of donations to the drop off site, clean out refrigerator, etc… Just one or two a day to feel like I accomplished something.
      Then after a week or two I split my day into 3 parts: Part 1 was job hunting for 2 hours. Part 2 was tackle a project on my list. Part 3 was to do something I enjoyed.
      Ended up getting a job quicker than I’d hoped so I pushed out my start date to give me a full 2 months off.
      Went back to work with a great outlook, pants that weren’t tight anymore, and a clean, organized house.

    3. Dr. Prepper*

      Take a few days/one week off and totally check out. Rest, recharge and recover.

      Then, treat your job hunt as your new full time job. Get on LinkedIn, network, see to getting references and referrals. Make at least one concrete contact a day to assist you in your job hunt. Ask for opinions on your resume – style, content and readability.

      Good luck.

    4. A Feast of Fools*

      I have involuntarily found myself in this situation and did the worst thing I could possibly do for myself (YMMV): Not have a rigid daily plan.

      Without the structure of a job, I just kind of free-floated into depression, losing track of time (and my savings). I almost lost my house.

      Everyone is different but, if I could go back in time and do it over again, I would follow CupcakeCounter’s advice and have a timed, daily schedule of productive activities. That, alone, would have kept my brain cells firing at an appropriate rate and I would have performed better in interviews (and done better in finding those interviews).

    5. AcademiaNut*

      Give yourself a vacation first! One or two weeks off with either nothing scheduled, or some enjoyable, low stress activities. I would, after the first couple days of sleep and comfort food, make sure to get some sort of physical exercise, even just a daily walk, and some time out in natural light, for general mental/physical health. I’d probably start off with a day of vigorous housecleaning to have a nice clean place to relax in.

      After that, a daily schedule is a good idea – have a time to work on job applications, or for contract work, and for doing some volunteering or practical projects around the house, but also regular exercise, regular sleep and healthy food, and blocks of free time.

      1. WhenIsRetirement?*

        For people who have done this, if anyone sees this, can I ask what your age is? I am burned out and want to do this but am in my mid50s and am scared it won’t work out well.

  27. Leilah*

    Anyone have advice for grad school applications? My biggest concern is letters of reference. I graduated college 12 years ago. I will be applying to the same school a graduated from in animal science. I have my own farm and a full time job in animal science as well.

    My ideas:
    My former boss (just was transferred a month ago)
    My main farm veterinarian (has written letters for many vet school applicants – but would this be weird since I pay him to provide a service to my business currently?)
    My former farm nutritionist (she has many years of experience in academia and was recently promoted so I am no longer her customer)
    The assistant research scientist who I worked with for a few years at my current company (she supervised the work I did daily but I did not report to her) – she can be a bit flaky and is not a great writer (but a wonderful person!), but I also worked with her partner who is an academic and would definitely be helping her write the letter if I know her.

    1. Paris Geller*

      I applied to grad school 3 years after I graduated college and I already felt that letters of reference from former professors was tough, so I sympathize. I definitely suggest having at least one who can speak to your more academic work, so I think the assistant research scientist you worked with is definitely a good idea, and probably the farm nutritionist as well.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        Yes, you’ll need at least one letter from someone in an academic or research position, or who has academic experience. As a grad student, you’d generally be expected to do research, so someone who could address your ability or potential for that would be helpful, to complement comments on your practical farming skills.

        Best of luck!

        1. Leilah*

          Yes, I plan to do a research project using my company’s research facility where I used to work (I now WFH) — this type of collaboration between my company and grad students in this department before. My nutritionist has her PhD and spent about 10 years in academic research in this field before moving into private industry, and the assistant research scientist has been in this research unit for about 7 years now even though she only has a Bachelors’. I rarely worked with the actual PhDs who designed the studies because they are based on another continent whereas I worked with her almost every day and she was the one supervising the studies and the facility.

    2. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Reach out to your undergrad professors! They won’t mind that it’s been a while, this is part of their job. Honestly it would be very weird to apply to the same university and not have at least one letter from one of your undergrad professors. If you still live in the same place, offer to get them a coffee and catch them up on what you’ve been up to professionally in the last 12 years.

      1. Leilah*

        Really, after 12 years? When I was one of 100 students per class? I don’t think they knew who I was when I was in school, let alone now after over a decade! I never even spoke to them (to be frank, I aced almost everything and never needed to talk to them about anything, my in-major GPA was 4.0).

        1. After 33 years ...*

          It depends! I I get a request like that, I’d look at the GPA and start from there. It’s not uncommon for me to get requests from students from 5-10 years ago. A short e-mail starting with “I don’t know if you remember me … and going on to say what’s happened in recent years” can work, especially if you were a strong student.
          My now-retired colleague seemed to know everyone she ever taught by sight- “Leilah, I haven’t seen you in 20 years since you took X from me! How’s it going?” I’m not that good, but I’d look at your transcript and be able to say something.

        2. MsM*

          Include a little bit in your request message about what you’ve been doing since graduation and how their lessons have been helpful to you in that, or if they’re in an area of specialization you’re also hoping to pursue, or whatever else is prompting you to reach out to them over your other former professors. Also probably good to offer to send along a resume/CV if they’re amenable, although odds are they’ll ask you for one anyway if they say yes.

          Personally, though, I think your nutritionist sounds like a good pick given her academic background, along with your boss. Grad programs tend to be more flexible with applicants who’ve been in the workforce a while, especially if it’s not a program where your only real direct career path afterward is academia.

      2. VA Professor*

        I’ve been a professor for 22 years and am able to write references for students from long ago. I keep all my old gradebook spreadsheets so I can say things like they excelled in a particular topic, solid student who grasped such-and-such a topic well, reliable (if they were in class everyday), worked well with others (if their group work was good), hard-working, etc . Feel free to reach out a professor where you got an A or who was generally nice. If I don’t think I can write a good reference for a former student, I’ll just apologize and suggest that they try others.

    3. ArtK*

      I applied to grad school 35 years after getting my BS. I didn’t bother trying to get letters from professors because they’d never remember me, and quite a few of them are no longer living in any case! I went with a couple of my former managers. I did end up covering the “academic” part because one of those managers is now the dean of a well-regarded department in my field.

      1. Leilah*

        Awesome. Yes, I worked in research for a couple years so I am hoping the assistant research scientist covers this portion.

    4. alc*

      Grad school in sciences is more of an apprenticeship than “extra college,” so there’s not much to worry about. Yes, you need to prove you can hack academic work at a much higher level than undergrad, but the classes are only going to be about 1/3 of your time in a funded research Ph.D. program. What committees are most interested in is your ability to function as a research assistant, and ultimately, an independent researcher, because that’s the value you’re bringing to the program.

      Use your former boss (can speak to your work ethic) and your former nutritionist (speaks the language; knows what it takes to earn a Ph.D. and can speak to your capabilities in that realm). The research scientist would also be good so long as you’re able to ensure she doesn’t flake out on the letter!

      Even if they were recent, letters of reference from professors that only know you in a classroom context are very weak for graduate research programs. So you’re not missing out on much. You have 12 years of industry experience and multiple references to attest to your abilities. You can put together a very strong application with that.

      Make sure, in your materials, to show you researched the school, the program, and individual research groups. Talk about what programs interest you and (if possible) how that research may influence your own work environment, either now or in the future. Basically, like any other job application, answer the question of “You can apply anywhere, why apply here?”

      1. Leilah*

        Thank you! This is very helpful.

        Yes, the area I’m applying in, it is pretty common not to go to grad school until well into your career, and to go direct from grad school back into industry (or as in my case, never leaving my job). I will have to do a little digging into the work of the area I am hoping to study in this particular school. I had an emphasis in a different species in my undergrad than I am hoping to specialize in this time around (although a lot of my industry experience has been with that species) so I’m not nearly as familiar with the researchers for that species at that school as I am for my original species of interest.

      2. Anon scientist*

        Agree with this. I went to grad school only 5 years after graduating, but my job involved Doing Science and I was a much better scientist at 40+ hours a week than after taking undergrad classes. Most grad schools were fine with all professional recommendations or maybe 1 undergrad recommendations. There were a couple that only cared about undergrad experience, but they actually weren’t that prestigious for my type of science and I ended up getting a really good compensation package of TA/RAs for the school I landed at, which was more focused on my post college experience AND has the best reputation for my subfield.

  28. Oh No She Di'int*

    Question regarding circumstances of a manager accepting a gift.

    I manage a 6-person WFH team. I work in the physical office. Normally I adhere religiously to the “no gifts for bosses” policy.

    I recently had an employee offer a gift, and now I am wondering if this could be considered a special circumstance. This employee’s wife works for a bakery, which means she is allowed her pick of treats at the end of the day. The employee offered to bring me something next time he is in the office to pick up some equipment.

    Out of reflex I politely declined. But then I got to thinking: (1) the treat would cost them nothing, as it’s a perk of the wife’s job; (2) although I don’t know for sure, it seems likely that anything the wife doesn’t take home would end up in the trash; (3) he is not offering to make a special trip to bring it; he would be doing so in the course of his customary work schedule; and (4) nobody else would be here to witness it, so there would be no question of other team members feeling pressured to do the same.

    All of that made me think, is this an exception? I realize this might be a fairly trivial situation, but I’m looking for a rule of thumb for the future.

    1. Paris Geller*

      I’d think that be fine. When I think of gifts, I think of things that either cost people time or money. It sounds like this employee offered to bring something in that his wife gets for free and he’s already coming into the office anyway. To me that’s more like someone bringing in cookies they baked for the entire team, it’s just that this time the rest of your team WFH and you’re the boss.

    2. Kes*

      Yeah to me this is casual enough that it reads to me as potentially just ‘easy nice thing for coworker’ vs ‘gift for boss’. The facts that he’s not going out of his way or even spending any money, and isn’t doing this for you but not for others in the same position, make a difference. It seems like he might offer the same to another coworker in the same situation, he’s not just doing it for you to curry favour with you as his boss

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work gifts of food can be accepted, but it’s expected that they will be shared – they aren’t kept by the boss for personal use. As this is a bakery, ask for something that can be shared with anyone else who is in that day. If no one else is in that day, bring the rest home.

    4. A Feast of Fools*

      I think that would be fine.

      And I would probably use language to signal that I saw it as a low-stakes, super casual thing, “Sure, if you’ve already got leftover goodies in your car/at home, I’ll take a few off your hands and share them with other people in the building. Can’t let sugary goodness go to waste!”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The employee himself will witness it.

      What we do when no one is looking are sometimes our biggest tests.

      So this employee will learn that free cupcakes on the sly are okay. So what else is okay?
      And there is no way to know what growing expectations he will have. Does he think you will toss him a special project? Or time off on a particular day? Does he think this makes him a better employee in your eyes?

      Yeah, I get it. It’s cupcake. But I also get that you are religious about no gifts for bosses. Once you accept that cupcake, then you are no longer religious.

      What I would do is tell him to bring in enough for everyone and then you will have one. A meeting day might be a good time to do this. Then send him home with any leftovers.

      In short, accept the cupcake and decide you are not so religious OR decline the cupcake and remain firm.
      There is no correct answer because this is about consistency. It’s not about the cupcake. It’s just a cupcake.

      Going forward these firm/rigid stances don’t usually pan out. The problem is that drawing such a hard line becomes impossible after a while. People will long remember how you took the cupcake after saying NO gifts EVER.

      My wise friend said to avoid absolutes, this means statements that sound like “I always….” or “I never….”. For one thing people get hawk eyed, watching for this person to “mess up”. And for another thing cupcakes become a quandary. Did I mention… it’s a cupcake.

    6. PollyQ*

      To me, the question isn’t what the cost is to the employee, it’s what the benefit is to you. And you’d still be getting something of value from one employee. I say stick to your principles and decline the offer.

  29. Eldritch Office Worker*

    @Alison re the new rule – I’m kind of eh about it personally. I like hearing people’s stories and people having a place to vent! Maybe it would be better to have dedicated threads though. I see you closed the “things I wish I’d said” thread for this week, but that’s pretty easy to collapse. Maybe an anecdote thread each week would solve for the problem?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      (Wasn’t sure where to put this since replies are off on the pinned comment, hope this is okay)

      1. the cat's ass*

        I enjoy all of the open threads and watching where they go, but can imagine they are the very dickens for Alison to moderate! I’ll abide by the rules.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        That was my feedback actually — I’m mostly indifferent to the rule, but asking for feedback in a comment with no reply option was kind of funny :)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ha, sorry, I assumed someone would start a thread about it but I should have been clearer or started it myself! (I just didn’t want a big thread on it right at the top.)

          2. MacGillicuddy*

            I always love the “things I wish I’d said” threads – they’re a hoot!

            BTW the “petty people on power trips” thread was funny, sad, astounding, gobsmacking, and confirming that I haven’t been the only person who’s worked for or with out-of-control people. It generated more instances of me reading posts out loud to my spouse, usually starting with “Listen to THIS one!” than almost any other AAM threads.

            1. Pocket Mouse*

              I like the “Things I almost said” thread. To me, it’s in alignment with posts that ask questions: people other than the original poster contribute from their own ideas and experiences, for the benefit of OP and others. Generally, I think this is a good rubric—it doesn’t allow blog-style posts, but does allow for some things that aren’t strictly questions or seeking discussion.

          3. fhqwhgads*

            I’m sort of torn. There have been some pretty hilarious stories over the years, and I liked those. But the “no advice, just venting” ones I do not miss at all. I think I probably land at “it’s ok to lose the occasional hilarious gem in order to avoid rants/vaguebooking style comments”.
            That said it also wasn’t clear to me if the new rule includes updates on past questions, or if “an update or two is ok” thing carried over from the similar weekend rule. I’d appreciate clarification on that front.

    2. Popinki*

      Personally, I like the work stories best of all. It helps to know I don’t have the craziest workplace on the planet, and once in a while you get a gem like “we got new phones with fewer speed dial slots and everyone is freaking out”. Plus, I do have a rather crazy workplace and I like to bore people with my own stories ;)

      If you want to make the change permanent, maybe you can do an occasional “craziest work stories” post, or have a dedicated thread for stories within the open thread comments.

    3. CatCat*

      Agreed. I also like hearing the follow up of someone’s situation where they got advice in an earlier open thread and how it’s going. There’s something to learn from that even if there isn’t a question or advice being sought at that point. (“I posted about X thing at work, and got advice to talk to manager in Y way, and this was the outcome.” Good or bad outcome, really valuable.)

    4. DataGirl*

      I can see it both ways. Right now, if you have a question you want answered, you need to get it in pretty close to the posting of the open thread because people tend not to respond to posts further down the page. I’ve found even getting in 30 minutes after the post goes up means you won’t get much of a response, if any. Perhaps two different Friday posts- one for questions and one for stories?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, that’s my concern — that a lot of people don’t get as much advice because you have to post so early to be seen in the chaos. Maybe a “hold off on non-questions until X hours in” rule or something.

        1. Have you tried sparkling at it?*

          Would making 2 threads be an option, or does that double the moderation for you?One for stories, one for advice

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It shouldn’t double the moderation unless each thread gets the same number of comments this one now gets on its own … although if that happens, more engagement isn’t a bad thing! Maybe work questions on Thursday and work venting/stories on Friday. On the other hand, that’s three open threads a week plus the Thursday “ask the readers” post and it feels like that’s getting to be a lot of posts that are outside my core mission with the site. I think of those two options I’d probably prefer to leave things unchanged, but I’ll have to ponder.

            All this feedback is helpful though — feel free to keep it coming.

            1. Willis*

              I’m not a frequent reader of either open threads, but am of the site overall. My general thoughts are that if the options are between expanding open threads/ask-the-reader type stuff that are geared toward generating comments (and thereby increase the moderation workload) vs spending less time moderating and more time on relevant workplace/career topics (like the interview with the DEI expert, for example) – the second option is definitely preferable. Seems more in keeping with the intent of the site and of interest to a much wider audience.

              I’d assume that people giving feedback in the open thread are going to be much more pro-open thread then the total universe of readers. So probably not the best place to get feedback on the site overall (although I get that your initial intent was just for feedback about the new rule).

            2. Yeet Davidson*

              I tend to lean toward questions-only, but if people really want and enjoy the stories, what if you simply created two top-level comments, one for “post your stories here” and one for “post your questions here” and people could reply to both with the appropriate topic? Then they’re sorted into the same respective areas and people can collapse the stories thread if they just want to focus on questions and vice versa.

              I’ve seen you do with on certain 5Q/5A posts where you put a top-level comment that says “Let’s put suggestions for LWX here so they don’t overtake the rest of the comments” and I think that could apply nicely to Friday open threads, too.

            3. fhqwhgads*

              Or it could be Friday Work Open Thread is the new rule. Saturday Work Open Thread is stories.
              And Sat/Sun stays FFA. If the concern is no one’s getting advice after Friday anyway, then the current Fri/Sat nature of the Work Open is sort of moot anyway, right?

        2. Lurker*

          Could you alternate? One Friday is for questions the next for stories? Or pick one Friday a month, like the first or last, that is for stories? And the rest are questions only. I know I really enjoy reading the stories.

          1. No name yet*

            Heh, this is what I was just thinking – alternating weeks, or 1/month or so for stories.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            I think it’s better to alternate the stories, in that case. People with questions may really need some help that week. Sometimes waiting to ask something for a week is hard enough.

          3. ecnaseener*

            I don’t love alternating, just because most questions are fairly time-sensitive and 2 weeks is a long time in between question threads.

        3. Spearmint*

          What if you sorted the comments on open threads so that the newest posts are at the top? That would give later later question askers more exposure.

          (I’m glad you’re thinking about this issue, I’ve found it frustrating to post a question just an hour or two after the open thread goes up and then get 0-2 responses, while the first 10 or so threads all have dozens)

          1. Kay*

            This is a good idea too. I’m personally on the make it questions only side – but I’m more of a taking care of business kind of person too.

        4. Aphrodite*

          I like the stories (and vents) too so I will miss those horribly if they go away. Like someone said, above it also helps with realizing that mine is not the craziest office on the planet even if some days it feels like that.

          What about allowing stories and vents to go to Sundays and keeping advice and questions for Saturdays? Or, like you said above, maybe those stories and vents can begin later on Saturdays, maybe 5:00 pm (EST).

        5. Lore*

          What about asking that anyone who wants to tell a story does it as a second level comment? So, comment to say, this is Lore with a story and then reply to myself to write it. That should make all the stories collapsible so you could flip through more quickly. (I like the two threads idea too but then it’s harder to see what’s new if you want to read both because you can only get the new comment blue line on one.)

      2. GigglyPuff*

        If you miss that initial like 15 min rush, if you actually wait a couple hours you’ll have better luck. Commenters, me included, have said before we actually start from the bottom sometimes when it’s already full. So if you wait until mid-afternoon EST you might have better luck.

    5. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Yeah, I don’t like this new rule. These threads get huge no matter what, there’s no way to better organize them without changing commenting systems entirely. Also, stories often spur discussions.

    6. Anne of Green Gables*

      I like the new rule. I can see where others like the more general chit-chatty stuff that isn’t questions asking for input. Would separating them into two separate threads/posts be a possibility? I like seeing the questions and admit I wasn’t reading the open threads much because it got overwhelming with general talk.

    7. Kes*

      Yeah I’m a little torn – I do think some of it can be a bit chatty and honestly I tend to skip the ongoing sagas, but on the other hand I do think it can be interesting when people ask a question and then come back with the update on their situation as a result, similar to updates from questions in main posts

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        I would assume there’s also a division on whether chatty is good or bad

    8. PH*

      Put me in the “for” camp for the rule – the Friday open threads have started to have the clique-y feel that the weekend threads before Alison instituted that rule there. I knw I can scroll past them, but I was feeling less and less engaged.

    9. Be kind, rewind*

      I’ve been reading the entire weekend thread for years, and my experience didn’t seem to change with the new rule. So I’m neutral either way. (I do have collapse comments turned on as default, so other readers’ experiences may vary.)

    10. JP in the heartland*

      I like the work stories as well and have vented my own in those strings. Maybe vents/stories could be a whole different thread/day.

    11. CheeryO*

      I’m for it. I used to be a frequent reader but have mostly dipped out due to the sheer volume of the weekly threads, and I was never crazy about the multi-installment sagas (and general venting always gets me, especially when it’s from the same handful of frequent flyers who never seem to take any of the advice that people take time to give them).

      Why not just make the rule similar to the weekend thread? Instead of dinner party-appropriate topics, it could be topics that you’d discuss with a mentor at work. As in, light venting is fine, but the goal would be to keep it productive.

      1. Tali*

        “Instead of dinner party-appropriate topics, it could be topics that you’d discuss with a mentor at work. As in, light venting is fine, but the goal would be to keep it productive.”
        I think this is a great guideline.

        I also am not a fan of the multi-installment sagas. I don’t mind things that are not phrased as a question but are designed to elicit responses from others (like the “things you wished you said to coworkers” thread). But I don’t like when people use this site as a diary for ongoing problems they don’t try to solve.

    12. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m cool with whatever she decides, although I really like the thread about what you really wanted to say to folks and work and didn’t! lol

    13. Spalva*

      I like the stories, I hope they can stay. Asking people to wait 2-3 hours with the stories does seem reasonable.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        I like the idea of waiting until later in the day, maybe like a “happy hour” work thread. I don’t mind the stories or venting, or good news (I wanted to post about how excited I was about something related to work but since it’s not a question, I didn’t), it’s usually the “Reddit” type question someone usually asks, “tell me about x that happened this week” or something. That generally annoys me because then the thread gets huge. But I know other people probably like those.

        1. acmx*

          Yes, like maybe from 3pm – 5pm (whatever time zone she picks) and then close the thread?

          1. allathian*

            Please not that, otherwise it would be hard for those in different timezones to contribute.

    14. Delta Delta*

      Sometimes stories are great. Without the open thread nobody would have known about Hellmouth, which was really quite the saga over many weeks. I like a separate anecdote thread or asking people to wait a little before posting stories.

    15. BRR*

      I like what she’s trying to do and personally like not having to sift through stories or venting. But there are still a ton of comments/questions so I’m not sure if this one rule will make enough of an impact. I’d be fine trying it out a little more to get more data though.

    16. anon24*

      I enjoy the stories. I’m not an office worker, so can’t really relate or engage to a lot here and am mostly a lurker although I do love the site. I mostly skim the questions to see if there’s anything relevant that I can learn from, but I do love the stories!

    17. Purple Cat*

      I’m not sure how much the new rule is cutting down on comments.
      I was sad that the “what didn’t you say to coworkers” got flagged under the new rule. It was still seeking engagement from the community. So I guess what’s really the objective? Less “grandstanding” and “me, me, me” type posts? Or clearing space for more people to ask questions and get advice.

      I like when readers are able to provide updates from other weekly open threads.
      Like some others, I keep collapse all as the default so I scroll right past some of the topics.

    18. Sunshine*

      I prefer reading the stories to the endless questions – they feel so repetitive and I mostly scroll past them looking for something. These threads used to be much more engaging and interesting to read through. I miss the fun, chatty threads we used to have.

    19. PX*

      I’m a fan of stories, less so venting but I can scroll past those fairly easily.

      I personally think topic threads (eg like how the weekend posts have book threads, crafting threads, gardening, gaming etc) are a good way to keep things contained but still have the option for those who want them to engage with them.

      1. Nihil Scio*

        Personally, I like this ‘Open Thread, Questions Only’ if it’s coupled with a regular thread like yesterday’s ‘What’s the Smallest Amount of Power You’ve Seen Someone Abuse?’ that lets everyone share stories. I really loved that one and read ALL the posts. It was fabulous!

        1. Nihil Scio*

          Earlier, Rusty Shackleford suggested “Things you wanted to say to your coworkers today but didn’t “. As someone with an extremely sarcastic inner voice, this might be a good story thread.

    21. Person from the Resume*

      “make [the thread] more useful and easier to navigate for people.”

      I wasn’t around last week. When I saw the new rule today I actually wondered what the purpose of this thread is if it’s not for funny, crazy stories. I rarely ask a question and I read this thread for entertainment.

      I do know that the first top level comments/ questions always to seem to get the most responses and later arrivals don’t get much. If make it more useful means get more responses to more posted top-level questions, I guess this works. But if this ends up less entertaining do you eventually get less readers and responses. I could all be entirely dependent on folks’ work situations too.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        But my work reading of AAM has changed. In addition to that I remember when this blog was less popular and you could read the all the comments (because there weren’t 1000s a day).

        I miss the smaller community but more readers are what’s paying Alison’s bills so it’s a trade off.

    22. Princess B*

      On one hand, I like having questions only for the work thread. But then I remember the Hellmouth saga that I liked for updates on every week. So maybe questions+ a topic/theme people can answer?

  30. Cat Mouse*

    Rule feedback: maybe once a month relax it for office/school stories? Sometimes those are fun!

    1. Paris Geller*

      I agree! I kind of like having most of these threads for questions & advice, but I also like the free-for-all stories. The themed stories are great too (like when we have threads of “office potlucks gone wrong”) but I would miss if there were never office/school stories. Isn’t that how we got the great saga of the new phone system that caused chaos??? That was a gem. I feel like once a month would be a great compromise.

    2. Kes*

      I do think having separate periodic posts for stories/vents might help vs just having them end up here because this is the general free for all post

      1. Reb*

        Yeah, I like the idea of a separate thread once a month for stories. Maybe the last day of the month?

  31. Reality Biting*

    Any labor lawyer types out there who would know the answer to this question:

    I recently had a freelancer deliver extremely subpar work. It ended up costing the company days worth of time to fix it. However, ultimately, everything got taken care of. The freelancer is now declining to invoice us due to the trouble caused. (It’s ultimately a rather small amount of money.) However, I think that potentially puts us out on a limb legally. For example, they could always come back later, stating that they delivered work that we never paid for.

    Should we let the freelancer opt out of charging us? I feel they should charge something just because… well, that’s the way business works.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Does the contract with your freelancer include any kind of signing off on the work? Payment upon delivery of *approved* work? If so, it seems they didn’t meet the terms of the contract. If not, strongly consider adding that in the future. (IANAL but I have worked with freelancers *and* slept in a Holiday Inn.)

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Yes, the contract does include that stipulation. But we did eventually approve it. After 3 days of back-and-forth and a lot of heavy lifting on our end. But it did get approved in the end. That’s why I feel like it should be paid for.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Whoops, that’s embarrassing. In case anyone is wondering, I had two separate questions here and wanted to keep them separate with two different names but replied here with the wrong name. But the details above are accurate.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            I think you should pay, then. But if you have a paper trail of emails saying “please invoice us,” and the freelancer refuses to, and if you traditionally don’t pay without being invoiced, I wouldn’t worry about future legal issues. (Again, IANAL and I actually know nothing.)

            Another thing to consider is a “kill fee” clause that kicks in if the project is canceled or the work doesn’t meet your standards and can’t be used.

    2. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      No, you need to pay them. Press for an invoice, tell them nonpayment is not optional for legal reasons.

    3. Xena*

      Ask for an invoice. They can add “100% discount for poor work” or something similar if they need to but I would push for the paper trail.

    4. Luz d'Bris*

      I was once the freelancer who did the extremely subpar work. So embarrassing! Like your freelancer, I declined to invoice. I can’t respond to the legality of not paying, but I can assure you that it’s very unlikely that they’ll come back and want to be paid later. It’s humiliating to make a huge mistake, and they won’t want to revisit it.

    5. Just my 4 cents*

      I’d ask them to send an invoice with a “discount” or no charge written on it just to CYA.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      I would think if you have it in writing from them that they’re comping the work due to xyz, then you’re probably covered. However, if it would make you more comfortable, you could request a $0 invoice.

  32. Doug Judy*

    I had posted the last few weeks about needing to find a much higher paying job because of my husband’s health. I made it to then final round but it was such a bad time to try and do a test analysis and interview days before his surgery. I didn’t get the job, which is fine. Leaving is never good timing but my boss just got called to a potential month long jury duty and my other colleague has two weeks off starting next week to move. So it wasn’t the right time. It did open my eyes that I need to consider leaving, so that is my goal by the end of the year or find a different position internally. I have a target salary I want to be at in 5 years.

    But the best news is my husband’s surgery went very well, he won’t end up paralyzed and with PT/OT we are very hopeful he can continue to work. We’re realistic that doesn’t mean 25 years but if I reach my goal salary in 5, we’ll be in good shape.

    5. Not A Manager*

      If this is the post I remember, at the time you were very concerned about the inconvenience to your colleagues if you would leave now. I see you mentioning that again in this post.

      I really urge you to move away from that kind of thinking. Maybe “it wasn’t the right time” for you to apply for a new job due to your own family emergency, but it will NEVER be the right time for your colleagues to deal with you leaving. Unless your job is going to take on the burdens of your husband’s health challenges and your retirement plans, you really can’t risk those things based on your employer’s convenience.

      1. Stoppin' by to chat*

        Completely agree. You ultimately have to do what is best for your spouse and personal situation. I know we can all get close to coworkers and it can feel bad to put people we like in a lurch, but ultimately you should look for a take a new job when it makes the most sense for YOU. So glad the surgery went well, and good luck on your job search.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Thanks for letting us know about your hubby’s progress. I am so happy to hear that he is not paralyzed.

  33. MktMgrNoMore*

    I recently decided to break out of my current field as I no longer find enjoyment in it, and begin job searching. The issue I have is, I am a very strong “jack of all trades” and would be happy having a job that utilizes a multitude of strengths, and I have NO IDEA what types of jobs to search for. What titles am I looking for? My skills are very transferable to a variety of industries but I feel a little “lost” because I fit in so many boxes that I actually don’t know what boxes I should fit into, if that makes sense. Any advice from anyone on here?

    1. ABK*

      Can you provide more details? What is your current job title? Can you look for the same job title but in a different industry? If you list some of your skills or strengths, it will be easier to answer your question.

      1. MktMgrNoMore*

        I’m currently in Marketing but have never enjoyed it. I ended up here accidentally, in a way. My strengths are project management, interpersonal/relationship building, very strong verbal and written communication, organization, as well as of course marketing skills.

        1. ABK*

          I’d look for Project Manager job titles, although those vary quite a lot from industry to industry. Also, maybe something in public relations would be a good fit for your skills.

    2. VV*

      Can you look based on the organization’s mission? If you are open to a variety of responsibilities you might have luck by searching based on what the organizations does, who it serves, or its impact and then seeing what roles feel right based on how the market looks now. That might help whittle it down and give some personal direction to the search.

    3. Ali + Nino*

      Project manager is a good suggestion (depending on the industry) and my first thought was actually Operations Manager. in my experience, small business tend to put everything that doesn’t really have another place to go onto the Ops team, which could keep things interesting for you and play up many of your strengths. This could include HR-related tasks, following up with clients for payment/squaring away payment of vendors, helping the C-suite introduce new best practices or technology to the rest of the team, and some of the planning for “social”/team-building activities, to name a few examples. A good Ops manager is worth their weight in gold in these cases because they keep everything running smoothly behind the scenes. Best of luck!

  34. Oat Milk Market*

    Library Staff!

    How do you deal with feeling burnt out? I’m at a public library and I find myself feeling more and more frustrated with disrespectful patrons, controlling management, etc.

    I’m pretty low in the hierarchy so there’s not much I can do to change rules/culture.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I wish I had a miracle cure to offer you. I wish I had a miracle cure to offer *me*. The only thing I’ve come up with is to start training in some back-office skills in the hopes that I’ll be able to switch to a non-public role someday.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Can you take a some time off? Getting away from the job for a week or two can been very therapeutic.

      Otherwise, my best advice, is to look for other things in your life (hobbies or something) where you can get validation and joy. You may be surprised how much less you can care about work when you have other things to focus on.

  35. Potatoes gonna potate*

    I brought this up on the weekend post and figured I could ask here.

    Any instacart workers here? What’s it like working as a shopper?

    I realize that’s a super vague question but I haven’t begun shopping yet so I don’t know what I don’t know. I’ve never actually used their service as a customer as I enjoy doing the shopping and driving. I signed up a few months ago to be a shopper; it seemed like an appealing way to make a little money.

    I’ve been on the app, and read through the FAQs but I guess I want perspective from people who have actually done it? I prefer to ask here than look on TikTok/Reels etc.

    1. Neon Dreams*

      I’ve been doing it a couple months as a side hustle, so I can only attest to that. Here’s a few things I’ve learned:

      -It’s hit or miss as far as order flow goes. Some days you get a lot of orders, others not. It also depends on the market you live in. My town is on the smaller side, so it’s probably not as much as a big city. It also depends on the time of day you’re online.
      -Have a phone charger in your car and have plenty of charge. I’ve had mine go out several times because I don’t charge it before I leave.
      -Keep up the communication with your customers. I usually text when I get there and if a specific item is out of stock. Some will be more responsive than others.

      Hope this is helpful!

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Thanks that’s helpful! My immediate neighborhood is a little small but if I go about 15-20 minutes out, I guess there’d be more orders. If I do that, I’m guessing I’d just go to one store and go online and…just wait for an order there/nearby? I suppose this would differ with each store but I wonder if there are different rules/lines for Instacart shoppers.
        (I’ve shopped at Whole Foods a few times and always notice their shoppers but I haven’t noticed any shoppers in other stores).

    2. violetfizz*

      I’ve done some DoorDash gigs and got good advice from the DoorDash subreddit. I’m sure there’s an instacart subreddit where you can get advice and tips from current Instacart shoppers.

  36. The Original K.*

    Has anyone had luck reaching out to recruiters on LinkedIn? If so, how did you search for them (by geographic area, practice area, etc.)?

    1. Lemon*

      I was able to reach out and get a reply from a few, but it didn’t translate into any interviews, so take my experience with a grain of salt :/ I searched for ‘(field) recruiters’ and filtered by my country. I then dropped them a message introducing myself in 2-3 sentences.

      1. The Original K.*

        Yeah, I have “open to work” on so that it’s visible for recruiters only. I’m trying to pivot though so I want to reach recruiters who recruit for what I want to do, not what I currently do.

    3. Sally’s Alley*

      Keep in mind that recruiters don’t work for you. If they’re internal recruiters, they work for one company. Independent recruiters work for themselves or for recruitment firms that collect resumes.

      The worst seem to be subcontractors for recruitment firms who troll listings for openings, then try to get you to sign on with them.

      I’ve worked a few very good, reputable recruiters, but have been contacted by many sleazy ones.

  37. Ace in the Hole*

    Applying for a job and I’m stuck on references. I’ve been working at the same place for 10 years, and it’s a pretty small organization with low turnover…. there are only 1 or 2 coworkers I can safely ask without worry about them gossiping.

    I’m thinking of asking a contact at another organization. I’ve taken a few training classes she taught and do some work at her facility a few days per year. Is that a close enough relationship or would it be weird to ask her?

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      I hired someone who had been at the same place for 10 years. She provided a lot of references that were pretty old, but I guess she tried to compensate by providing a great number of them. My boss wasn’t initially very happy not to have a more recent reference, but he was also pleased to be hiring someone with a track record of staying in one job for a long time, so in the end he overcame his scruples. Her old references were really glowing, so that helped.

      I think it would be okay to include your contact at another organization, but ideally in addition to multiple references who worked closely with you even if they’re old.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        That’s the problem though… I don’t have any old references. Everyone I’ve worked with here who might make a good reference either still works with me, died, or is unreachable.

        Do you think 2 good references I work closely with now plus one or two contacts from outside the org would be enough? If it makes a difference, I do have a working relationship with the hiring manager already and she seems pretty keen for me to apply.

        1. LC*

          I think that sounds like plenty, especially if you mention it ahead of time to the hiring manager. Depending on how they ask (this wouldn’t work as well if you had to fill it out in the application software when applying, for example), I might only start with the two coworkers and let them know the situation and that you can get additional contacts that you have a professional relationship with outside your organization.

          A reasonable one should understand and be fine with it (or ask for some alternative if they really feel the need to). And an unreasonable one will give you some information about what you’d potentially be getting into.

          So I think you’re all good. :-)

    2. Anne of Green Gables*

      Yes, it sounds to me like your contact that you have taken training with and done some work with would be fine as a reference, especially combined with the one or two people you trust at your current job. I would not blink an eye at that.

  38. Alexis Rosay*

    Does your company have ‘core hours’, and if so, what does that mean?

    I’m in school and myself and other students are doing industry internships. A lot of companies have mentioned that their ‘core hours’ are 10-4. Some of my classmates have interpreted this as being a 6-hour workday. My interpretation was that I have to be working during these hours and the other two hours of the workday I can do whenever I want–not that I don’t have to work those other hours.

    1. fueled by coffee*

      You’re intuition is right – it usually means they expect 8 (or whatever) hours of work from you, 6 of which must be between 10 and 4 (excepting lunch, I assume). This means that everyone is expected be available for meetings and so on during those hours, but you can flex whether you work 7:30-4:00 or 10:00-6:30 or 10-4 (break) 8-10pm, depending on your own schedule.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        Yes, but I wouldn’t assume it’s “any other 2 hours.” I interpret it was any 8 hour period that fully covers 10-4.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I believe it means that no matter what your work hours are, they have to include 10-4. Not that you can have a 6-hour workday, but that your 8-hour work day can be (for example) 10-6 or 8-4.

    3. OyHiOh*

      Our core hours are 10 to 3. During that timeframe, everyone is expected to be actively working. If you want to begin your workday at 10 am and keep working till 6, you can do that. If you want to start your work day at 7 am, and be done at 3 pm, you can do that too. The expectation (for the salaried employees) is that you’ll work 8 hrs/day, and be available between 10 and 3. How you get the rest of your hours for the day/week, is up to you.

      Some of our staff need to regularly attend public meetings held in the evenings (town councils and such) so core hours and flexibility allow everyone to meet their obligations without working 50+ hours a week.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I’ve had this at past jobs, where the core hours were 10-3, basically — that did NOT mean a 5-hour workday! It meant that you could choose to work any 8 hours as long as they included the time period from 10-3. So you could start at 6:30 and end at 3, or start at 10 and end at 6:30 or somewhere in between.

    5. londonedit*

      You’re right – where I work (which is in the UK) my contracted hours are 37.5 per week. Our core hours are 10-3, which means everyone has to be working during those hours. Either side of that you can flex your hours, but you need to work 7.5 hours a day and there are rules around it – you can do anything from 7am-3.30pm to 10am-6.30pm, and you can start and finish at different times on different days, but it has to be agreed with your line manager and it has to be a regular pattern (so you can’t just decide one day to work 7-3.30 without telling anyone), you have to be working between 10 and 3, and you have to be doing your 7.5 hours a day (you can’t work 10-3 one day and make up the rest another day).

    6. DataGirl*

      When I’ve worked places with core hours it meant that you designed your 8 hour day so that you were for sure there during those hours, but they didn’t care of you came in earlier or stayed later. You couldn’t just do the extra hours whenever either. So if core hours were 10-4, you could work 8-4, 9-5, 10-6, etc. Also, if your lunch isn’t included in the 8 hours your day would be an extra 30-60 minutes longer depending on how long you are ‘off’ for lunch.

    7. Toodie*

      Our core hours are 9-4, so … not really too flexible at all. Your internship company sounds much more flexible!

    8. Sunny*

      You are right! It means they are flexible on start and end time but that you need to be working from 10-4.

    9. Anonymous Koala*

      At my work, core hours are 10am-3pm, which means your *continuous* 8 hour work day must include those hours. So you could start at 7am and leave at 3pm, but you could not work 5-7am and then work 9am-3pm. I think your interpretation is correct for most companies.

    10. Non commenting lurker who also WFH*

      It would be best to ask the company what they mean by that in an interview or when starting but your interpretation is closer to how I’ve seen it used.

    11. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agreed with everyone and adding:

      Your students are conflating “core hours” with “work day.” If the company only expected 6 hours per day, they wouldn’t call them core hours.

      And they would advertise the heck about that as “great work-life balance.”

    12. Nopity Nope*

      A few key things to highlight, especially for interns:
      – You will probably need your manager’s approval for the schedule you’d like to work.
      – The role requirements will likely trump your personal preferences. For example, if you would prefer to work 10:00-7:00, but the rest of your team is on an 8:00-5:00, you may be asked to align to the team norm.
      – “Core hours” doesn’t necessarily equate to flex time. You may be expected to stick to your designated hours. In other words, you can pick 7:00-4:00, but you have to do that schedule every day. You can’t do 7:00-4:00 one day and 10:00-7:00 the next day.

      But for sure, “core hours” NEVER means “a five hour day.” It just means that you must work the designated hours, with additional time elsewhere in the day to add up to the total weekly hours you’re expected to put in.

    13. Jonquil*

      We have those. It means you must be available during those hours but you still need to work a full 8 hour day. It just means there is a little flexibility around start and finish times (in most cases, with manager agreement, and definitely dependent on culture: in my team it’s not the norm to work 10-6, but 8-4 would hardly raise an eyebrow).

    14. Clisby*

      At least when I worked at a place with core hours, they were 9-3. But the other 2 hours weren’t whenever I felt like it. I was supposed to arrive at work between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m., take anywhere from a half-hour to 90 minutes for lunch, and work 8 hours (not counting whatever I took for lunch.) So if I came to work at 7, the earliest I could leave was 3:30. If I came in at 9, the earliest I could leave was 5:30.

  39. Shiny*

    I’ve got a new job and it is taking quite a lot of adjustment. I’m used to being stretched super thin, working crazy hours, and needing to be super reactive. I’m now on the donor side of my industry, and to say it is more relaxed would be the understatement of the century. I was hired for senior level expertise in my niche area, and I’m currently formatting slides. At a robust salary. I’m hoping it will pick up soon, but I have been told that this is just how the donor side is.

    So my question is, what are some strategies to adjust and not get bored? I took the job in large part for better work life balance, but right now it’s feeling so far over the line that it’s hard to focus at all.

    1. Whynot*

      Can you set up some “get to know you” meetings with others on staff? You can use them to get to know more colleagues, find out about their roles in the organization, and find out more about how your position interacts with/can support them. That’s the sort of relationship-building that can benefit you long-term and help you get around any institutional tendencies toward “silos”. It could also lead to some joint projects for the future that could keep you engaged and use your expertise.

      It is a real psychological shift to go from always needing to put out fires and react to emergencies, to a more pro-active approach and the ability to shift between front- and back-burner priorities and think about short-term vs long-term priorities. So cut yourself some slack as you readjust your office norms, and enjoy having your nights and weekends back!

    2. Spearmint*

      Maybe this is a chance to take initiative and start projects that would be “nice to have” rather than necessary. I feel like every department had that list of things they would like to have but don’t know how to do, or don’t have the time to do. Perhaps you could talk with colleagues and see if there’s anything like that?

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      I’m in this place too. Since your a specialist, could you put together some documentation or set up some trainings about your field for non-specialists? For example in my job, I work with a lot of chemists and they sometimes do seminars about niche chemistry topics related to our field. Even though I don’t need to do any chemistry for my job, it’s helpful to listen to these seminars sometimes and get an idea about what I can ask a chemist for help with.

  40. ghostlight*

    Hi all. I work in at a large performance art/entertainment venue, and I just found out we’re lifting our mask requirement for audiences effective next week. The venue lifted the vaccination/negative test requirement for audiences a couple weeks ago (which I disagree with), and there was talk of lifting the mask requirement sometime in the future but I thought that would be months from now. All of our staff/volunteers have to be vaccinated, and masks are required for our stagehands and people who come in contact with all the tours… but the audiences don’t have to be? This just doesn’t sit right with me, and I don’t know what to do. I’m very new and I like my job a lot… except for this. Any advice?

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      You can continue to wear your own mask, or quit. There really aren’t any other options.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Unless you’re the ED, I don’t see you having any impact on this decision (which I also don’t agree with – I work in an office with a public counter. Staff have to be vaccinated [or masked, if they got an exemption] but as of this week our public customers have free access regardless of vaccination status or masked. I think this is where US society is right now.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I am also conflicted on lifting the masking requirements. On one hand, I am very tired of this whole pandemic. On the other hand, the virus doesn’t care that I’m tired of it. Regardless, you can’t control the decisions that your management/board is making. All you can do is control yourself.

    4. A. Ham*

      I hear you. fellow performing arts employee here. we recently learned that we are lifting our various covid polices at the end of the month. It seems like just yesterday we were debating adding a booster requirement… and now it will all be gone. it seems super fast. :-/ (the vaccine requirement for staff/artists/volunteers will stay in place).
      It seems a huge majority of our patrons (like… 97%) are vaccinated. for the past 6 months we have required either proof of vaccination or a negative test, and the number of people showing negative test results at the door have been minuscule compared to the one’s showing vaccine cards. So… I guess that makes me feel a little better? I don’t know. like I said before it all seems really fast. but I also know that the decision was not made lightly. it was in consult with multiple doctors and what the vaccination rates in our geographic area look like, as well as the infection rate. And that is all well and good, but what happens when the next variant comes along? we go back to the old policies? talk about whiplash for our patrons…
      I don’t have any advice, just a lot of empathy.

    5. TJ*

      I don’t have any advice, just commiseration. Yesterday I discovered that the mask requirements were lifted for vaccinated employees at my job, but since my company doesn’t verify vaccination status, all the loudly antivax employees weren’t wearing them. One of them was even smirking at me when I came in (I’ve asked people to wear their masks around me even though the supervisors don’t really enforce them, and this guy really resented it).

      Honestly, I just feel defeated. As hard as people have resisted all safety precautions, it’s pretty obvious that the majority has ruled that Covid doesn’t matter anymore. Those of us with chronic health issues or fragile relatives are just going to have to suffer.

    6. Kay*

      Oh NO – I’m hoping you are not the venue I have tickets with!! Sorry, that isn’t much help, but I have the same concerns as a patron.

      How do your co-workers feel about this? Maybe you can push back as a group? I would say to raise it with your manager once, with the realization that this doesn’t seem to be going your direction. Wear your N95 and hope for the best it seems. Sigh…

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      This timing sounds like my area. I was okay with some places lifting it but hoped the children-centric places that have been a little stricter than required would keep their mask rules longer since their main clientele is kids under 5. Nope, we’re all just leaping into it now!

    8. BuildMeUp*

      That sucks, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. I know at least one theatre I receive e-newsletters from is holding off on lifting any requirements for shows that people have already purchased tickets for, because those people bought tickets while the mask rule was in place and may be expecting it to be in place for their show. Is that something you could bring up to anyone? It could at least push back the change for a little while.

  41. Exhausted*

    Work has been hell in the run up to my first half month leave in 2 years. It’s like I have task 1, 2, 3. Simple enough right? Well:
    Task 1: keeps coming back with sub-steps, reviews and meetings, so Task 1 never ends.
    Task 2: awaiting replies that never comes despite the clock ticking
    Task 3: There is only so many hours in the day and I can barely handle 1 and 2.

    On the one hand, I know it’s not like my boss will cancel my leave. Likely things that could wait will wait till I come back. Things that couldn’t would be handled by somebody else.
    On the other, I don’t want to the THAT coworker who lumps all my coworker with all my BLEEP, let them slave away over my work while I sip my sidecars in the hotel bar.

    1. Whynot*

      Write an email to your boss before you leave for vacation with an update as to where all three tasks stands, who to contact/delegate to in your absence, and where you plan to pick up when you’re back from leave. Then go drink your sidecars in peace and definitely don’t check your work email!

      1. What's in a name*

        Agreed. Also, if don’t you don’t already have co-workers in the loop, have a conversation with whoever will pick this up while you’re going and start including them in meetings/email threads/whatever now. That way, (a) they can see you held up your end of the bargain, and (b) they’re actually able to pick up.

        1. Exhausted*

          Woah! Thanks both, that’s a good idea. That way they don’t have to dig through all my past correspondence to see what happened. Thank! I’ll do that

  42. Bertha*

    A friend of mine recently told me that she received an offer from a federal agency for a job, but the salary offered was less than she was expecting, so she tried to counter. They said “Okay, send us your paystubs and we’ll see what we can do to increase it.”

    But.. we live in Illinois, and the state recently-ish passed a law that said you can’t ask for salary history.. right? Are federal agencies exempt from this? Or is there another detail I’m missing?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      The Federal Government is usually exempt from state laws, but even if that weren’t the case I don’t think it applies here (though I admit I am not in Illinois and don’t know the law there). In this case the pay has already been established – the General Schedule pay grade – they aren’t trying to low-ball applicants. A new hire will generally start at Step 1, so the job and pay have been offered – e.g., GS-13 Step 1.

      Your friend is seeking to negotiate higher pay – a higher step. There are two ways to do this: 1. match your prior pay, or 2. because of superior qualifications. Matching prior pay is easiest. They provide prior pay stubs, HR looks at the pay chart to see which step matches or exceeds that pay and determines the person starts at e.g., GS-13 Step 4. To get a higher step based on superior qualifications you friend would need to demonstrate that their skills exceed those listed in the job announcement. this kicks off another HR process that requires documentation and takes a while.

      Hope this helps.

      1. Bertha*

        Thank you, that is very interesting! I guess if the purpose of the law is to avoid people being low-balled.. and the purpose of showing paystubs is to support higher pay.. then at least asking for the paystubs in this case wasn’t a violation of the spirit of the law. I suppose this doesn’t completely answer the question of whether or not the federal government is “exempt,” but seeing how difficult higher salary would be to obtain without the paystubs, it at least feels less.. icky to me. Thanks again for the insights, I really appreciate it.

    3. Dino*

      Government =/= competent and well run. Should they be aware of laws and regulations? Yes. But if the head of that branch never reads her emails or if he doesn’t do his online compliance training, stuff like this can happen.

    4. Haha Lala*

      Not a lawyer, but my understanding of the IL law is that it prevents employers from requiring applicants to disclose salary history/ provide paystubs. It doesn’t prohibit individuals from voluntarily sharing their previous salary/paystubs. But the employer is prohibited from making any employment/compensation decisions based on the paystubs. So this is sort of a gray area with the Fed Agency asking for paystubs now, but didn’t require them during the application process, but is essentially saying that they’d increase the salary based on the paystub….

      If your friend wants to share her paystubs, she would be free to do so and she wouldn’t be in violation of the law. The Fed Agency might be, but your friend wouldn’t take them to court for raising her salary…

      1. urguncle*

        This seems to be the accepted and correct interpretation. They can’t say that you must provide a salary history (leading someone who earned $60k at their last job to be offered less than the person who earned $80k at their last job). This is going above the budgeted salary and seems to be asking for evidence of market change to make the case for a budget increase.

  43. Cici*

    I’ve been at my job for a little over a year. The position is exactly what I want to be doing and I have great benefits and a great working environment but I have no passion for the mission of the nonprofit I work for. This is nonprofit A.
    I volunteer for another nonprofit organization (nonprofit B) and I have a huge passion for the mission. I applied for a development associate job there 4 years ago and did not get the job (I had no development experience). I am a highly sought-after volunteer and have a great relationship with the CEO and several directors.
    Over the past 4 years, I’ve expanded my operations and logistics skill set and that type of job is what I would like to be doing for the foreseeable future.
    Today, Nonprofit B is quickly expanding with a goal to open a second location in Fall 2024. They reached out last week asking if I was still interested in supporting their development and membership team (I’m not). I told them that if they needed me, I would love to join them as an operations manager and stated my desired base salary. They were honest and said they probably could not afford me and would keep me in mind.
    2 days later, I received an email from the CEO of Nonprofit B asking for a call with him and the CFO to “have a conversation about the positions we are trying to fill”. I’m confident that these positions they refer to will not be immediately available, but there is a high chance that they will hold a position for me if/when it opens down the road.
    I have no reason to leave my job at Nonprofit A, but if Nonprofit B makes an offer meeting my salary requirements and gives me an opportunity to grow in my operations skillset, it would be difficult for me to say no.
    OF COURSE: all this is hypothetical until the call with the CEO and CFO happens.
    I’m having extreme guilt about even exploring the possibility of leaving my job at Nonprofit A. From 2017-2021 it was a staff of 2. I am the third staff person and with my addition, the program offering has expanded tremendously. I’m worried that if I leave, they will be left in dire straits.
    I guess I’m asking: if you were in my position, and an offer from Nonprofit B comes in meeting my requirements, what would you do?
    Any insight is valuable and much appreciated. Thank you in advance!

    1. ABK*

      People leave jobs all the time and the world doesn’t end! If I were in your position, I would pursue it and if things worked out, I would give as much notice as possible and move on.

    2. JP in the heartland*

      Especially in nonprofits, nobody is going to look out for you except you. If the job at Nonprofit B is everything you want, it’s not wrong or selfish to take it. Nonprofit A will manage.

    3. MsM*

      Honestly, I think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself with the “if it meets my requirements” part. They want to talk about the positions that are currently open, not your proposal to do something else entirely. And while they might be able to piece together a development role with some operations components, I think you’re going to find that’s either going to result in you doing multiple people’s jobs and put you at serious risk of burnout, or you’re going to spend a lot more time on the development side than you want, and will face at least low-key pressure to continue in that direction because it’s typically harder to bring someone new who understands their donor/member base than to plug a new person in on the operations side if and when they get to the point of needing a full-time person there.

      Assuming you do love whatever description they come up with, and are confident they’ll do right by you, though? If Job A’s expanding, then they need to have an eye toward bringing in new people and building sustainable processes anyway. Either they’ll find a way to navigate that without you, or you sticking around is not going to save them from some kind of existential crisis.

    4. Leela*

      A company, even a profit, being left in dire straits from your departure is about them, not you. They need to be able to absorb a loss and they’re not operating properly if they can’t. And you definitely shouldn’t factor their needs into what is a massive decision that’s about you! Your future is at stake here, and I’d say do what’s right for your future, only. Unless you are the owner/operator of nonprofit A, it’s not your responsibility to make sure they stay afloat from your presence only!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’d look at B in respect to my life goals, financial goals, etc. Then I’d say to myself, “If I could have any job anywhere would I chose B?”
      The reason I say this is that it seems like such a drawn out process here. There’s reasons, I see that and you love their mission.
      Decisions based on emotions can sometimes go sideways. And this same reminder holds for Company A also- you can’t stay there just because you are concerned about the two staff people. These emotional reasons can be detrimental to your life goals and also make situations weightier than they should be.

      I’d look at each job and find logical reasons for stay/going.

  44. Nails*

    Women in STEM or other male-dominated fields: is your company doing any events for International Women’s Day on March 8th? How do you feel about them? I’ll put my company’s events and my thoughts in a response to this comment.

    1. DataGirl*

      Mine posted on our social media that they are encouraging employees to wear purple on the 8th with a photo of a white man holding a sign saying ‘I will challenge gender stereotypes’. I mean I get what they were trying to go for but really? Of all the possible ways to honor/acknowledge women this is what you choose?

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Mine is doing an “Awareness session” and the invites were sent…by a man. Sure, there will be women spekers, but they could at least send the invitations through the Equality and Diversity comitee, and not through the Head of Corporate HR… * rolls eyes *

    3. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Truly hoping that the answer is “NOT”. Because my field tends to fumble these things like a WR wearing pot holders while trying to catch the ball.

      Example: One particular award (Woman of the Year in *field generic name*), which I actually was nominated for, there was significant snark and joking about the fact that I’d been awarded said award, with absolutely ZERO FOCUS on what I actually did to be nominated.

        1. ScruffyInternHerder*

          I did get a cool award (paperweight), and I did get to go to the awards dinner (very high end thing), and did get written up in a magazine article about it. Let them be obnoxious, they got to do none of it, I figure.

          Context – I’m the only woman in my role in my company. This applies across my previous three jobs, varying sized companies and departments. No matter what, I’m the only woman.

      2. Should I apply?*

        My company has been making announcements about it and free cookies in the cafeteria on the 8th. There will be a couple virtual sessions, that I haven’t paid much attention to. To be honest it mostly feels like lip service. My company isn’t horrible but it also isn’t great. A woman asked in a town hall about how the company supports women, and the leader, also a woman, talked about all these programs that we have and I’m thinking, I’ve worked here for 7 years. Why have I never heard of these before?

    4. Nails*

      Context: I’m a mechanical engineer at a decent size international company. I’m the only woman in my group of 8 and one of 2 in my larger department of about 50. I am on the younger side in the department.

      We’ve had a few events announced so far. One is a lecture/panel about the history of one of our important products, with a focus on the women who worked on it. I think this will be interesting and plan to attend.

      There’ll also be some kind of in-person coffee meetup to “celebrate.” I find these events really awkward but might try to go? I don’t know, especially because of covid.

      The other is I guess less of an event and more of a social media initiative? They are asking people to take a picture of themselves in a pose, and post it on social media or intranet with a hashtag about fighting sexism. And man, I hate this. I want to eyeroll every time I see it. To me, stuff like this doesn’t do anything tangible to fight sexism, and just drives home the fact that I stick out like a sore thumb while making it clear how little support I get. I understand why they do this, and if it starts a conversation then maybe it’s a net good, but I wish they wouldn’t.

      I feel there’s an interesting dynamic here, where yes we are all in a tech company and there’s a huge gender imbalance at every level, but other departments seem to have enough women for them to form relationships with each other. I’m really in the weeds at the bottom of the engineering ladder here. I’ve never even spoken to the other woman in my department. At a previous IWD event, company leaders (women and men) kept waxing poetic about the power of “women helping women” and I kept thinking – what f***ing women? Where? Every person in a position to give me mentorship or support is a man, and they have by & large been fine, but “women helping women” isn’t going to cut it, because there aren’t any women around to help me.

      My previous company didn’t have IWD events. I can feel myself getting increasingly bitter about them every year. When people talk about sexism in tech–at least at big company events like this–they tend to avoid the slightest implication that any work of solving it might ever fall on men. I find that incredibly frustrating, and it’s driving me toward this stance that is kind of humorous but also serious: fighting sexism in STEM has nothing to do with women. I don’t want to hear about it. Read a book. Fix it without me.

      1. Should I apply?*

        Totally feel you. While my company does have a woman at the head of R&D, there still a lot of “you need to drive your own career” and “find someone to sponsor you”. Um… okay, we’ve had rapid turnover in the last 2 years, there isn’t much of career path above my level, and the only manager I’ve had more than a 5 min talk with is my own and I supposed to magically find a sponsor willing to help with my career?

        Well guess what I’m going to drive my career by going to another company.

    5. No Tribble At All*

      We’re doing a lunch for all the women in the office (~ 30 or so). It’s… fine I guess? I haven’t met most of them. Though there’s fewer women overall because it’s a small company, a greater % of the women are in technical roles, which is what’s important to me. Looking at my old company that was basically segregated Engineering/Technology 90% men, Finance, Legal & HR 70% women.

    6. Brett*

      I know there are several different events planned by our various professional affinity groups (think groups like “Women in Science”, “Women in IT”, “Women in Division X”, “Women at Our Company”, “Women in Our Company Europe”, “Women in Our Company North America”). I think one of the coolest ones is the launch of a new leadership training program specifically for early career women led by women in leadership roles in the company and oriented around 1:1 coaching plus cohort-based courses. (I’ll add that men are expected to provide significant support to these training and events, especially in providing networking opportunities, but central roles belong to women.)
      I asked a question elsewhere in the open thread about what I should specifically do, since we have a wide range of events already being conduct and organized by women in our company. (I’m thinking my role is just to connect the women in our team to these events and opportunities.)

    7. Sunny*

      They didn’t do anything at my company. Personally I don’t really care… they did a pay equity analysis and I see women regularly being promoted into supervisor roles so that more than makes up for it. I’ve had companies push gender equality sessions before and it always rings very hollow because it completely ignores actual issues and is more of a pat on the back for the company.

      1. Sunny*

        Also the worst things I’ve had companies do in relation to this was when we had a Women in Animation day and we went out for lunch. It was very disorganized and the person running the event essentially said women need to be more assertive at work and it isn’t men’s fault that women don’t speak up more.

        Another company asked all of us to say our career goals in front of everyone attending, which I guess isn’t bad but it was very patronizing once people did. “Of course you can one day work up to become an Art Director! You can do it if you try.” like yeah… I know lmao I don’t really need the validation

    8. Generic Name*

      I work for a STEM consulting firm. We’re women-owned, and at least half of our employees (including management) are women. I wouldn’t be surprised if we have a social media post or something.

    9. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Not a male-dominated field necessarily, but our campus Women’s Center is partnering with our Sustainability Office to promote sustainable period products all month. Free giveaways, speakers, Q&A sessions where students can learn more about the products, and a period product drive (any and all types of products). I think it’s a good way to actually “do” something and address some issues around period poverty, and nothing is forced participation.

  45. TotesMaGoats*

    Question: Do I tell my bosses ahead of time that I have an interview?

    Setting: I really respect and trust my bosses. They feel the same. Things are unstable and I was not looking for a new role but saw an opportunity for a next level role at a sister institution. Figured what would it hurt to apply. Well, 3 weeks later I have a final in person interview scheduled.

    Complication: Skip level boss asked my opinions on replacing my boss who is retiring and what I wanted to do. So I decided to shoot my shot and suggested a promotion for me to essentially the job I’ve been invited to interview for. Other job is MUCH larger, like crazy larger.

    Trusted colleagues say to give the heads up a couple days before the interview. Parents say don’t tell. With the exception of my first job, I have not trusted any of my bosses to tell them ahead of time. I’m leaning towards not saying anything because 1) I could not get the job. It’s not a reach position but I could see other more qualified people applying 2)I don’t want them to think I’m not engaged. I am. 3) I could get the job but the benefits and such may not meet my needs and I turn it down or I find out things that make me pull my candidacy.

    So, what do you think?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Do not say anything.

      Sole exception is when you trust your boss AND they have directly invited you to search elsewhere and promised to be a glowing reference. (e.g. There was an old letter where OP could not get his direct report a promotion or raise and eventually did this.)

      You feel things are unstable; that seems a far cry from “Boss and grandboss also see the company as unstable AND want you to save yourself.” You might not get the other job; you might then get this promotion; ideally you only alert them that you are seriously thinking of leaving when you have a route in hand. Otherwise, as you say, it signals that you could be disengaged and maybe aren’t long for the role and they should start planning without you.

      (This is different from giving long notice for things like leaving for school or moving to follow your spouse or retiring–then everything with the job is implicitly fine and it’s just that this life transition thing has come up. Leaving to go somewhere that you think will treat you better is not those things.)

      1. Leela*

        Okay taking back what I said before, this is a hypothetical I would break the rule for. Or in the case of something like a Teacher Advisor where you want them to be good but are both hoping and expecting that they’ll go on to get a job in the field

    2. Raboot*

      What are the benefits of telling your bosses about this external interview? I don’t see any upsides to you and honestly I don’t see upsides on your bosses’ side either.

    3. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Do NOT tell your boss about this interview, or any other external interview, ever.

    4. Joielle*

      I’m in a similar situation and I initially thought I would tell my boss if I was invited to interview, but I’ve decided not to. I, too, really respect and trust my bosses and it would cause some problems in our department if I left. I’ve said to them before that because of a lack of opportunity for promotion, I would probably leave at some point, and they made some noises about looking into it because they want me to stay, but nothing ever came of it.

      I applied for a job recently that would be a big step up in responsibility, and I initially said to myself that I would let my bosses know if I got an interview… but then I did get an interview and decided not to. I guess I thought they would want the opportunity to restructure things if possible to promote me (in which case I would stay) but thinking more about it, I just don’t think it’s likely. For various reasons it would probably involve restructuring the whole department, and it would be a lot easier to replace me than go through all that. I just don’t see any real benefit to me of disclosing that I’m looking to leave, especially since I’ve already said I was likely to leave in the future.

      So here’s a vote for “don’t tell” from someone who understands the conflicted feelings about it!

    5. Leela*

      I wouldn’t tell them! An interview is nothing, you’ll be in a rough spot if the interview doesn’t materialize into an offer and your current bosses know you’re looking, especially if things are unstable. I wouldn’t say a word about an interview to a current boss, basically ever, even accounting for every hypothetical I can conjure.

      I’ve liked some bosses very much and definitely understand the urge to tell them based on your working relationship, but an interview is such a non-guarantee of anything I wouldn’t come forward! And I’ve been surprised by bosses I liked and respected a lot getting very..strange, cold, hostile, or something else, once they’ve found out I was looking or leaving.

    6. DinosaurWrangler*

      No, do NOT tell them.

      All it will do is put the thought in your bosses’ minds that you’re looking to leave. They’ll be thinking about this when it comes to raises, or promotions. Or worse, if the company needs to have a “reduction in force”(layoffs), you might be st the top of the list, because you were on the way out anyway.

      Going on interviews doesn’t mean you’ll take the new job. You’re finding out if the prospective new job is a good fit, just as the new company is looking to see if you are a good fit.

      Never tell your current bosses (or anyone in management, even) until you have received and accepted the written offer, and after the background check has been successfully completed.

      You can just continue with discussions about internal promotions, because it gives you comparisons. But watch out for statement like “perhaps in the future” or other ways to string you along.

    7. Nopity Nope*

      No no no! Don’t tell them! You have to look out for your own interest. There is absolutely no benefit to telling your manager and so, so many ways it could backfire. In fact, re-read your post. You have not mentioned a single reason TO tell them, but THREE REASONS NOT TO TELL THEM. You cannot be more invested in the success of the organization than you are in your OWN success. Plus, what, exactly, could they do with the information?

      Wait until you get an offer, then give them notice. That is perfectly professional behavior, and is NOT a betrayal of anyone.

    8. J.B.*

      If you leave their feelings will be hurt. If you don’t leave they’ll know you interviewed. What does it benefit you to tell?

  46. No Longer Fencer*

    How does one stay focused teleworking/working when one is 3rd trimester pregnant dealing with pelvic pain and maternity leave just around the corner?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      LOL you don’t! Most people/managers are understanding of the physcial/medical issues associated with late pregnancy. I wouldn’t go around shouting TMI but just take sick leave or slow down as appropriate.

    2. Ann Perkins*

      Solidary – I’m 35 weeks pregnant and so ready to be done. Do the best you can but give yourself grace. Try to make sure things are as squared away as possible in case you just don’t show up the next day because baby arrives.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      You don’t. Do the best you can but do not stress yourself out trying to keep productivity where you were pre-pregnancy.

    4. MaryLoo*

      Good luck with everything, and the time will pass. Really it will!

      I found that working while pregnant made the time go more quickly. It provided a distraction. That’s not to say that I was super engaged – I just plodded on. But leaving before my due date would have shortened my leave on the other end.

      Although clearly there were days when I was sick of working. I used to make jokes like “well, elephants carry for a year, so it could be worse”.

      1. allathian*

        OT, elephant gestation lasts beween 640 and 660 days, an average of about 95 weeks. So yeah, it could be a lot worse!

        By law, maternity leave here starts 30 days before your due date. I also went nearly 2 weeks overtime, so I had 6 weeks off before giving birth. Those last weeks were miserable, sitting at a computer was really uncomfortable for me, at the time we didn’t have standing desks, and WFH wasn’t an option, so I guess I’m glad I didn’t have to try to work through it…

  47. Student Affairs Sally*

    Feedback for Alison about the changes to open thread – My first thought was “oh darn!” I missed the open thread last week and came here to tell a story. But having posted several questions here before, I think ultimately this will probably be a positive change. Would you be open to possibly having TWO open threads – one for questions and one for stories? Just a thought!

  48. Old Admin*

    Reading this blog helped my husband who immigrated to the US some years ago to adjust and find a job at a very large company. Let’s say they do national and international logistics (close enough).
    He worked his way within two years up to supervisor of a crew that loaded/unloaded the trucks, did safety checks, dealt with suppliers etc.
    Recently, an anonymous complaint (at least that’s what HR said) was filed that he had threatened a coworker, and hubby was fired without a hearing for unbecoming behavior.

    He *thinks* the complaint may have come from a female coworker who was struggling with the job – but he doesn’t know, as HR refused any and all details. If it came from that coworker, then he made a big mistake – they once argued, and he (coming from a very direct culture), called her incompetent.
    We can’t afford a lawyer to extract details from this large company…

    I have two questions:
    1. Does hubby have any hope at all to get unemployment? I don’t think so because he was fired with cause.

    2. Going forward, how can he explain what led to his firing when asked about it in an interview? When he doesn’t know for sure?
    We know he can’t lie about the fact of having been fired. But how can he own it, and show he will be even more careful in the future? It’s hard to talk about a mistake or lesson learned when the circumstances are so murky. Hubby is not trying to deny anything, but needs to find the right way to talk about this.

    1. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think he can still own it even if he doesn’t know the exact specifics of the complaint that was made about him. Even if it wasn’t this specific coworker who complained, your husband knows that he was fired because the way he was interacting with his coworkers wasn’t appropriate for the workplace, and has come up with at least one example.

      What he needs to do now is a lot of self reflection. Are there times other than this example when he’s been rude or dismissive of coworkers? Why did he previously feel that it was okay to say hurtful and insulting things to coworkers with no regard for how it would affect them? What can he do to make sure he’s being more respectful and civil to coworkers in the future?

      Once he’s got answers to those questions, he can answer the question about why he was fired in a way that won’t disqualify him for future jobs. The key is going to have to be accepting that his previous workplace behavior was wrong and that he will need to behave differently in the future.

    2. The teapots are on fire*

      He should file. If they fired him because of a complaint that they can’t substantiate he may still be eligible even if they claim it’s for cause. I’m sorry you’re both going through this.

  49. WomEngineer*

    Is it appropriate to ask people to endorse your skills on LinkedIn? (this includes specific technical and/or leadership skills) If so, what is a good script to do that?

    I’m a recent grad, and while I’m not planning to leave my job any time soon, I like to keep my LinkedIn profile up-to-date. When I last applied to jobs, I had endorsements from a senior design teammate and a former SO, both of whom were in the same discipline as me and who could objectively speak on my skills if someone asked. When I started working and we broke up, I saw that my ex removed his endorsement (which is fair).

    Some of my friends thought it was petty (maybe? But I don’t blame him) and added 2 or 3 endorsements on my page. I know these few lines of my profile are less significant than actual job references or how I present in future resumes/interviews. But I worry about if it affects my credibility, even if I’m not job searching.

    1. Not Your Mother's Principal*

      In my experience, endorsements on LinkedIn are meaningless. Friends and family have endorsed me for classroom teaching skills when they have never seen me work. When I am hiring, I don’t look at LinkedIn to assess work skills (although I might look at Facebook, etc. to see who you are as a person). I wouldn’t worry about it.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        This. I’ve had endorsements written for me by people I’ve met one time at an industry event about me being awesome at something I know less than the square root of jack all about. More than one. Its bizarre.

      2. tab*

        It’s fine to do this, but in my experience, it doesn’t lead to much. I sent the following to several of my contacts that I worked with for years, “I hope you are well and enjoying the cooler weather. I’m writing to ask a favor. I’ve been getting good consulting work doing trade studies, system architecture, and design work. But, I haven’t gotten any work doing troubleshooting, and I think I have lots to offer clients in that area. You may remember that I was assigned to troubleshoot many problem projects during my time at ???. If you agree, I’d appreciate your going to my LinkedIn profile and endorsing me for troubleshooting in the “Skills & Expertise” section by clicking on the plus sign next to troubleshooting under “Tab also knows about…” You might need to click on the “See 13+>” link to see the troubleshooting option. Thanks in advance for your help.” The good news is that many people were happy to endorse me, and it was fun to reconnect. The bad news is that it never led to any troubleshooting consulting. Still, I’m glad I did it just because it was nice to hear from so many of my colleagues. YMMV…

      3. mreasy*

        I have never looked at any endorsements on LinkedIn for any reasons. 100% do not worry about this.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Fwiw, on past questions re LinkedIn endorsements consensus has been that they do not matter at all (it’s not like the truth or objectivity of the assessment is apparent), and in fact a number of people seem to endorse other people for random things. Sometimes this is job adjacent but not really accurate, and sometimes your brother endorses you for cake decorating when you are an ax throwing coach.

    3. Mrs Peaches*

      It’s appropriate to ask as long as you’re asking people who are actually familiar with your skills. Generally folks in the professional world don’t give too much credence to LinkedIn endorsements, but it certainly doesn’t hurt have them, especially for a recent grad. As for a script, start with some pleasantries followed by a simple ask like “I also wanted to ask if you’d be willing to endorse my skills for llama grooming, cat herding or Excel. I really enjoyed working with you and would be grateful for an endorsement as I’m building my online presence” or whatever phrasing feels authentic for you. Good luck with your job search!

    4. SnowyRose*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. LinkedIn endorsements very rarely mean anything. I’ve had connections endorse me for areas that were tangentially related to my actual area of expertise but had no actual experience in.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      Endorsements are meaningless. I’ve had contacts endorse me for skills that I don’t even have. Don’t waste your time.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      It’s not inappropriate to ask people for endorsements, but it is pointless. I doubt any prospective employer puts any thought into the presence or absence of endorsements on LI.

  50. Fabulous*

    Update: I got the internal job I interviewed for! Found out on Monday from the manager and have been waiting with bated breath all week to hear from HR with the actual offer number. They lowballed the F out of this offer!!! I obviously countered, because hell no am I taking a 13% increase for a lateral move where I’ve already been in this pay bracket (at the bare minimum) for 2 years. I need AT LEAST the market average. I’ll settle for market average, but realistically I need above market average because I’m that good.

    Question: If they come back with another slap-in-the-face counter offer, what do I do?

    I prepared for negotiation, but I didn’t prepare for having to fight tooth and nail to be paid fairly. I *thought* they’d at least come to the table with a semi-reasonable offer, and they failed HARD on that front. This is like worst case scenario here and I’m basically panicking now…

    1. Another person again*

      That’s tough – since they already know what you’re making, they may think they can lowball you since it’s more than what you make now.

      You could try putting together a document for them that shows market average for the position that shows why they should offer you more. And of course any performance reviews or recognition you’ve received could be used to make the case for going above that.

      But if they are not willing to budge – you might want to consider applying externally somewhere that will pay market rate.

      1. Fabulous*

        you might want to consider applying externally somewhere that will pay market rate.

        That’s what part of my fear is. Because of the way my current role has evolved, I’m not set up to be fully qualified for external jobs of the same title. Externally, “Teapot Designers” are supposed to have skills analyzing teapot needs and planning the design, actually building the teapots, as well as delivering them to the customer. Internally, these are all separate jobs. I can do the analysis and deliver them, but the actual build part is what I’m missing, and that’s what this internal job is for – so I can strengthen those building skills.

        Regardless, though, the “market rate” is really the minimum. I’ve done this work for 5+ years and have exceeded all expectations of my managers and peers. I’ve been consistently working at a level 2x higher than my pay and it needs to be reflected.

    2. I was told there would be llamas*

      If you’re not fully qualified for the external jobs, then how do you justify that those external jobs are the ones that should be looked at to determine “market?” You’re not comparing apples to apples IMO. If all you are missing is the “build” knowledge, you could accept the internal job and in a year (or so) you’ll be qualified for the external jobs and can look then.

      1. Fabulous*

        I’m beyond qualified for the internal job. I understand that it’s not an apples to apples comparison, however,
        when you search the specialized job (for each of the internal roles we have) the market average is actually much higher – because they have specialized skills rather than being a jack of all trades. I’m basing my market research on the lowest common denominator and at the lowest experience level, which this new role is neither. Plus, I have 5 years experience in this field, where the job only required 1-2. I would be learning a specialized skill to improve my “jack of all trades” marketability.

        1. Cj*

          I mean little confused. This is a lateral move, not a promotion, correct? Why is a 13% increase bad? That actually sounds pretty good to me for a lateral move. It sounds like your company might underpay across the board, that’s something you are only going to solve by getting an external job.

          As far as you having 5 years of experience when the job only requires one or two, you need to look at this from the companies perspective. Yes, I am sure they would be thrilled to have the additional experience if you will accept the job for what they are willing to pay. But they may not be willing to pay you what you want for that experience. They might prefer to hire somebody with one or two years of experience, since that is all the job requires, and pay what they originally have budgeted rather than to pay you significantly more.

  51. DarthVelma*

    I’m not a fan of the new rule. With this rule in place we likely never would have experienced the saga of working on the Hellmouth.

    2. Rochelle*

      Respectfully disagree, I was not a fan of the Hellmouth saga and I’m glad others are being discouraged from writing similar sagas.

      1. Jettingthepens*

        It also seemed to spawn A LOT of copy cats who didn’t seem to realize that WordPress still has a free version.

      2. WellRed*

        I got really tired if the Hellmouth saga but I realize I’m in the minority. However I do like crazy work stories in general.

    5. Princess B*

      I liked the Hellmouth saga. And it was easy to collapse and ignore if you didn’t.

    6. BBB the cabinet builder*

      Totally agree. I came and searched for Hellmouth every Friday as soon as I got home from work.

  52. Raboot*

    I’m starting a new job soon after a break of a few months. Any tips for adjusting back to the 9-5 (remote) office life? (My sleep schedule is actually fine thanks to volunteer commitments so at least that doesn’t need fixing.)

    1. Saraquill*

      I’ve made a Notepad file for myself, with an hour by hour schedule to help me stay on track. I can be as distracted as I want, as long as I reach my hourly goals.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Very similar to what I was going to suggest! I do one in excel or google sheets. I do 50 min focused, 10 min break, and list out both goals by the hour. Like Task A steps 1-4 for the hour, and check buzzfeed for the 10min. Other good ten min breaks often are things that involve moving, empty the trash, get the mail etc.

    2. ferrina*

      Be ready to be exhausted for a few months. Every time I start a new role, even if it’s not physically tough, the mental adjustment zaps my energy. I usually clear my social calendar for about a month after my start date, maybe seeing my very best friends on the weekend.

  53. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    I tried to post earlier but it seems it got lost in the ether…

    I work in an [increasingly toxic] NPO (about 70 staff). We’re not allowed to go over our 40 hours. Occasionally, a few of us go over by 15-30 minutes, no more than that while wrapping up some last- minute things.

    Recently, my coworkers have started noticing that if they go over their 40 hours, their manager will “adjust” their electronic timecards so they don’t get overtime.

    Like if i worked 40.5 hours when i clocked out at the end of my week on Friday, I’ll come back on Monday and see that my time card was “adjusted” saying i clocked in 30 minutes late or clocked out 30 minutes early one random day (even though i was there and working), leaving me with only 40 hours and thus not getting paid for my half hour of overtime.

    Is this legal? What can we do?

    1. Attractive Nuisance*

      I’m not a lawyer but my understanding is (in the US):
      1. Your employer must pay you for all the time you have worked.
      2. It’s legal for them to tell you not to work overtime – which it sounds like they’ve done already. It’s legal for them to take disciplinary action, including firing, for working overtime after being told not to.

      So, yes, what they are doing is illegal. But I think your best option is to start being more strict with yourself about not working overtime. Or tell your boss that you cannot complete your work in 40 hours and need permission to work overtime – which may or may not be a good idea. If you’re only going over by 15-30 minutes, your manager will probably tell you this is a problem with your time management, not with the job being too demanding for a 40-hour week.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        we try as much as we can, but sometimes it really can’t be helped. we deal with the community and patient care and if patients/members are still there being taken care of, we must be there as well. it’s happened more than once that we’re about to clock out and SOMETHING comes up and we’re there another twenty minutes handling it.

        the workload is untenable though. some of my coworkers have been known to clock out and continue working.

        1. Attractive Nuisance*

          Ah, yikes. I would ask your boss for specific guidance – “what if I’ve worked exactly 40 hours this week and I’m about to clock out and something comes up?” – and then start being more direct about how We the Team need to follow the law.

          1. ferrina*

            And document the conversation. Ask this question in email if possible (or in person and follow up in email to clarify).

    2. Anon for This*

      Not a lawyer, but I think what they are doing is illegal – they have to pay you for hours worked. I caution, however, that given that they have told you you are not allowed to go over 40 hours, you need to clock out at 40. Yes, you can demand they pay you for the hours you worked, but they can write you up/fire you for not following the requirement to limit your hours to 40.

    3. Thursday Next*

      I’m not a lawyer, but that appears to be fraud to me. Employers are required to pay you all hours worked if you are non-exempt/hourly. They can’t not pay you overtime if you worked it. I’d check out your state’s labor board for information.

    4. actual hr person*

      If you are classified as full-time and non-exempt and you’re in the US, you must be paid for all hours worked. *However* the practice is that any overtime is pre-approved by management before actually working it. Also check your org’s employee handbook too for how they typically handle working hours and overtime (this would be good to reference outside of the legal requirements mentioned earlier in my comment).

    5. MacGillicuddy*

      If you go over 8 hours on a given day, like if you were working with a client and couldn’t just leave, would you be able to work that many minutes fewer the next day?

      Have you investigated this with management? If they’re that picky about 40 hours exactly, maybe that would be acceptable.

      This might depend on where you work. I know California has overtime rules by the day for some jobs – that is, 9 hours on one day gives you one hour of overtime, even if you only work 7 hours the next day.

  54. Laney Boggs*

    My job has pushed me to the limit the last week, and I’ve finally decided, after 2 years of job searching, to take myself in a different direction – I’m gonna move 45 minutes away!

    It’s a different state (MD) and one of the biggest cities, so my gut tells me my resume will start looking better to DMV employers. Also one friend already lives there, another friend is thinking seriously of moving there since he travels for work, a 3rd friend is going back to college near-ish… you get the point

    So, 2 questions. 1) any advice for a long commute? The hardest part will getting up even earlier 3 days a week, but I’m open to other problems to consider.
    2) how soon would you change your resume? Even if I get a place tomorrow (fingers crossed!) I pay for this one until May 1 (and would probably live here as long as possible)

    1. Anonymous Graduate*

      (1) Especially in DMV, if it’s at all possible to avoid driving, do it. Find a place close to the MARC. Live directly in the city. Honestly, even if it makes your commute longer (and MARC tends to be not-too-reliable, so it probably will), an hour 45 on a train or bus is much, much different than an hour sitting in a car in rush hour/Beltway traffic. Not to mention the parking situation if you’re working in the city itself.

      (2) Eh, if you’re really 45 minutes away and therefore would be able to travel to an interview on relatively short notice, you can put something like “DC Area” or “Baltimore Area” right this second and no one would bat an eye. Literally no one. It’s a running joke that if you meet someone out-of-state who says they’re from DC, they’re really from a suburb an hour away from the city.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        MARC for sure. I once commuted by car from Baltimore County to Northern VA and it was awful. I only did it for six weeks or so while I was looking for an apartment, but it broke me. I would sit on a MARC train for hours before I would do that drive again.

        There are a lot of DMV jobs that are in the suburbs. Be really thoughtful about location; Herndon is “DC area” but the commute from Baltimore would be pretty awful. And from Annapolis it would be pretty bad. But Columbia to Silver Spring isn’t terrible, nor is Annapolis to Capitol Hill. YMMV.

    2. Silvercat*

      Commenting from Southern California, where a 45 minute commute is blessedly short
      1) podcasts or audiobooks are a lifesaver
      2) If you’re driving, the evening commute is likely to be longer than the morning, and Friday evenings will be worst of all (I don’t know about on other transit
      3) A few minutes starting earlier or later can make way more of a difference than you’d think
      4) Laying out your clothes and getting everything ready for the morning during the night before is a huge help

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Agree with the commenters about the MARC or other forms of public transportation. Consider an alternate schedule. For a while I worked 7:00 – 4:00 because the traffic was so much lighter earlier in the morning. (Afternoons are still a gamble no matter what time!) But I work in DC, so depending on your route you may not find the same thing. Check with others who live in the area, and find out if there is a reliable traffic report. (For DC area WTOP radio reports every 10 mins.) It can be incredibly helpful in avoiding accidents and other traffic issues.

  55. Inigo Montoya*

    This isn’t technically a work-related question; it’s a retirement question. (Hope that’s ok!)
    I’ll be retiring in 3 months. I have lots of ideas of things I want to do – classes to take, volunteering opportunities, projects around the house, travel, etc. I wonder if it’s better to not schedule anything for a while so I can just decompress and then see what is truly drawing me in the next stage of life. OR maybe I should just go for it and do all the things.
    Are there any retirees who have advice or personal experiences to share?

    1. Ozzie*

      This is adjacent to what you’re asking, but my dad retired a couple of years ago. He’s taken a lot of time to relax, but he did invest time and money into something that he’d talked about doing most of my adult life up to that point. (He’d always talked about buying another of the car he had when he lived abroad, and restoring it, as he’s always been a car person) So he retired, and hunted one down, and now that’s leisure passion project (aside hobbies he’s always had). He’s extremely proud of it, loves talking about it, etc. So while he’s definitely used to time to decompress, he also invested in something that he’d always wanted to do – because that WAS decompressing. I’m sure there’s more he’d like to do but that was where he started, at least.

    2. theletter*

      I can also speak to my father’s experience – I think he sortof imagined himself getting into teaching or coaching, but he took a new job after taking his retirement package and then bolted after 3 months. He never sought work again nor look into a regular teaching/coaching position. He focused solely on what he wanted and what his family needed.

      His wife still works and there’s been plenty of family events to keep him busy and active.

      My father-in-law had a different experience as he retired from a government job and then volunteered at a food shelf for more than a decade. Since the pandemic he’s been more focused on his and his wife’s healthcare needs.

    3. Cj*

      Maybe try your question again tomorrow? I think it would be appropriate there also, and it’s usually a much shorter threat so you made it more responses.

  56. OTGW*

    What would you do in this situation?

    I work in libraries, currently 2 PT jobs. I know what direction I want to go re: libraries (not reference) but the only open positions are still PT—or requires years of experience/a MA (I have neither the correct experience nor the MA). But I’m tired of balancing two jobs and not getting complete benefits and not getting days off. But I’m pretty sure I want to do libraries as a career

    Would you push through and try for those PT jobs to maybe eventually get a FT job? Or pass it aside and apply for FT jobs outside of your preferred field?

    1. Hawk*

      Are you committed to living in your geographic location, or can you move? I’m in libraries as well and I know some folks who had better luck by moving to another library system to get to a full time position.

      1. OTGW*

        Yeah, unfortunately moving isn’t an option. Me and my husband both have family here, and also I really like the area.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      What is it that you love about libraries? Think hard and make a list. Is it helping the public? Is it fondling books? Is it a quiet environment? Is it managing information and finding things?

      Many of these things can also be done in other occupations.

      Libraries rarely have FT positions for non-librarians. And even the MA Librarians can have real difficulties getting hired. It’s fabulous work, but if there’s anything else that would still scratch those perfect-job itches, open yourself up to more options.

      1. OTGW*

        The main thing is probably managing info and helping patrons. And tbh I don’t know what else I could do. I’m looking at admin and court jobs—but I’m not quite qualified for those either.

        Yeah, the lack of open jobs and pay is >:/ and I’m just not in the position to get a MA right now so I feel like I’m pigeon-holing myself to work PT forever.

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          There are lots of environments where you could be providing information and helping people full time.

          For example, I work in a Dept of Labor Career Center. Most of my colleagues have random bachelor’s degrees and their main qualification to do the job of a career services pro is to listen, to hold lots of random info (or “tags”) in their heads, have great Google bookmarks skills, and be able to work with a database effectively. There’s career centers all over the US (go to CareerOneStop.org for your local one). We work with anyone who is interested in finding a job, whether they’re unemployed or not, and it’s a community resource that’s free to the users. (A heck of a lot like libraries, quite frankly.)

          So maybe take a moment to contact your career center, set up an appointment (we do virtual ones right now), and chat with someone about your ideas about where you could go next. And while you’re at it, find out how that office does their hiring.

          If I were sitting with you, I might also recommend having a very open mind about other civil service positions — what about working for the City or County records departments … looking up titles or whatever? The courts? Paralegal or legal aid? There’s a lot of surprisingly interesting options buried in government buildings.

          1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            In between library gigs, I had a brief job in the assessor’s office checking property titles. It wasn’t the worst job, and involved some interesting research.

      2. Loulou*

        “Libraries rarely have FT positions for non-librarians” really does not match what I’ve seen. If anything I think the trend is hiring lower-paid paraprofessional staff to do jobs that would have been done by librarians a generation ago. I certainly see a lot more FT staff jobs than librarian jobs.

        Are you by any chance writing from a country outside the US? (I noticed you mentioned MAs and in the US most librarians have an MS). If so, and if you’re comfortable sharing, I’d love to know a little more about the landscape in your country.

    3. NeedRain47*

      This may sound stupid/obvious, but do you need to make a living wage? You will absolutely have a better chance of getting a FT job w/ benefits in a library, the more library experience you already have. But it’s not going to pay very well. And you’re eventually going to have to get an MLS (degrees may vary) unless you’re okay with low pay forever.

      I’m curious as to what area of libraries you’re interested in, as I’m a “not reference” librarian myself. (I do cataloging/metadata)

      1. OTGW*

        No I getcha. I’ve been working circulation for almost a decade (I’m in my mid-20s) and I’d like to do that or technical services.

        I am starting to feel the struggle of staying afloat. My husband makes a little more than me with 2 PT jobs as well but he’s stuck there for another year or 2 while we get some stuff taken care of. So I need to make more money so we can bear on for a while longer. I know I need the MA but I can’t do that right now either. Idk, writing this I feel like I need to suck it up and look elsewhere.

        This does not make sense lmfao sorry!!

        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          I don’t know your area, so I can’t speak for specifics. In my area, competition for library jobs, especially non-MLIS jobs, is very fierce. That said, with the experience you’re describing, you’d be a top candidate. Apply for the full time openings you do see, and don’t be afraid to look at areas of librarianship that aren’t public libraries–it’s often easier to switch than people think. I’m at a community college after 10+ years in public libraries and I know that applicants coming from public libraries are really like to have customer service skills and can think on their feet based on the nature of those jobs.

          Also, be sure that the jobs you want long-term really do require an MLIS before you start the degree. Especially if the area you love is circulation, a lot of places don’t have their MLISs in the circ department, even if they are a circ manager.

        2. NeedRain47*

          Nah it makes sense, it’s a struggle to make decisions that won’t leave you unhappy in your job or unhappy ’cause you’re broke! With a decade of experience you might be a good candidate for a supervisory position in circ, and those roles usually pay a bit more too. So keep looking in libraries and don’t confine yourself to one type. (I worked in an academic library for many years but am now in a public. People say it’s hard to switch, but if you’re not trying to be a tenured faculty member, you really can.) But maybe keep an eye out for other things that would come with insurance at the same time.

        3. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          I had two library jobs, one for four years until they had lay-offs, then another for about twenty years. Neither were public libraries; the first was a private membership library that was very old, where I ran the circulation desk and then got special events added on. They eventually ran out of money, but it was a cool place. After that, I worked in the library of a large historical society, actually in a lower level job in one of the special collections. Not only do I not have an MA or MS or MLS, I don’t even have a bachelor’s degree. My major skill, that took years to hone, is that I interview REALLY well, and I write pretty persuasive cover letters. The second library had about half the staff with just general bachelor’s degrees, and a few with library certificates from junior colleges (but those programs are really hard to find now), plus the MLS positions doing management and cataloguing and other specialty work. That place didn’t have a circulation desk, but was all reference and research assistance. There are also corporate libraries that might have assistant jobs besides the MLS pros.

    4. Kes*

      Caveat that I’m not from this field but how far off are you in experience? I’d be careful that you’re not shutting yourself out of jobs by assuming they won’t consider you if you don’t meet all the requirements, since that’s often not the case in general. What do you have to lose by applying to the FT jobs you want?
      Otherwise, it sounds like you may just have to make the choice on what is more important to you at this point – staying in the field or working one full time job. Also I would think about what the future looks like if you do stay in the field – how long until you have the experience for a full time job? Would you plan to get an MA at some point? If not, will you continue to be limited by that? And on the other hand, what other fields leverage similar skills that you could move into if you did switch?

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      I fear I am about to be sort of negative here. If you seriously want to be in libraries, then getting the MLIS is going to be a thing you likely need long term. You don’t need to justify to me why it isn’t possible (I believe you), but I think you have to realistic about your options are being pretty limited here- you say you can’t move and you can’t get the MLIS. Other than widening your search for FT work outside of libraries, there may not be a lot of options.

      I firmly believe that the only way to have a successful career in librarianship is to be super flexible about what you do OR be willing to move to wherever there is work. And by super-flexible I don’t just mean public services vs cataloging. I mean- corporate, community college, academic, schools, records management, or medical info gigs. And all of that is massively assisted by having the basic qualification for professional librarianship, which is the MLIS (or a variant there of). You have to decide how important working in a library is to you vs how important your location is. There’s nothing wrong with deciding location matters more, but as long as location matters more, you may find there’s not a lot of options. I wish you so much luck.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        There are way more people who have a MLIS than there are jobs that require it, so if you’re pursing that, you have to be very qualified, and willing to move wherever the jobs are, even if it’s not where you want to be. A friend of mine got a good librarian job with a MLIS, but it involved moving across the country, *and* prior to the MLIS he had a STEM degree and ten years of experience working with archiving data (with lots of metadata), public outreach, coding and technical work. The job he got needed both.

        I would say – keep applying for full time jobs at libraries, but also widen your job search to other employers and other work that uses similar skills. Don’t wait for a FT library job unless you’re happy to continue your current situation indefinitely.

    6. Former Library Staff (non MLIS)*

      100% apply to full time jobs outside the library. I worked full time with low pay for the public library in my medium sized city for 5 years. While I enjoyed the work, I couldn’t justify going for my MLIS. During the pandemic, some of us were sent out to help other departments and many of those people ended up applying for and getting jobs with those other departments for better pay. I got a 35% raise by jumping to a different department. I use all of my reference and info organization skills, it is less stressful because its not as heavily public facing *and* I can afford to live.

      Good luck!

      1. Former Library Staff (non MLIS)*

        I wanted to add, some of the other gov departments myself and my former colleagues pivoted into were Health Department, Community Development, Transportation, and Natural Resources.

  57. Hawk*

    Anyone who is in a union: has a vote of no confidence in management ever actually resulted in a change of management for you? How did it work?

    For context, I work for a county government. My union has put forth a vote of no confidence in our department director, but to imply our whole department administration.

    While I agree that the complaints are justified, I have other personal issues with the document, so I will not be signing.

    But have any of you gone through this process? It happened in another department and nothing happened, and in another it did.

  58. Saraquill*

    I had an in-person job interview on Wednesday, a follow up from a phone interview last week. During this time, the interviewer reiterated that one of the big challenges in this position is being part of a small family business. He also said several times that having a strong backbone is a must for this industry. I’ve spent over eight years in this field and this is the first I’ve heard this emphasized.

    Should I take these as red flags? Pink ones?

    1. Another person again*

      In my opinion, being told something counter to your eight years of experience in the field + just the fact it is a small family business = yes these flags are red. The fact that your interviewer sees the small family business part as being a “challenge” is another, larger red flag. I would probe more into that if you move forward.

    2. Anon*

      Did you ask (or do you know) what he meant by that? I would ask for an example of what is meant by “strong backbone”, as it could be something innocuous or could mean that someone there is abusive to employees and you’ll be expected to take it.

      1. Saraquill*

        I wasn’t sure what to think about his comments, nor how what to ask regarding them.

        1. pancakes*

          “Can you say more about the need for a strong backbone in this position? I’ve been thinking about our conversation and I’m not sure exactly what you meant by that.”

    3. Ozzie*

      At least pink – I would ask more questions. Because “strong backbone” can mean a lot of things, depending the person saying it and the person heading it. Everyone has different tolerances. But if an employer told me it was required, I’m definitely going to ask why… because it just screams abusive workplace to me. (especially if it’s a guy saying it to me, I’ll be honest)

      1. Green Goose*

        If it’s possible to press on what they meant by “strong backbone” that would be good. A friend of mine went to an interview where she was told three times she needed “thick skin” and after asking the interviewer said that the clients could be really difficult and she ended up passing on it.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      I’d definitely take that as a red flag. Small family business can either be a pro or a con, depending on how the business is run. If he’s already telling you that it’s a challenge, it’s far more likely to be on the con side. Especially once you add “strong backbone” to the mix. Is it required for the industry or specifically for this challenging family business?

    6. Anon for This*

      Strong backbone to me means people here will yell at you, or the environment will in some other way be toxic. Big red flag waving…

    7. Kes*

      I’d at the least want to delve into that more – strong backbone to me suggests either you’ll get a lot of pushback on things and/or you’ll get abuse from customers (or even from coworkers, who knows). With the fact that he repeated this several times… I might dig into it more first but I’d take it as a red flag

    8. Kay*

      Large, very large, multiple, waving red flags. A red flag lined street as your approach their building kind of red flag. Your interviewer is doing their level best to tell you that this job offers large helpings of boundary crossings without any sides of professional norms, and your backbone is needed in order to fight the barrage of abuse, inappropriate behavior, berating and other wildly unprofessional nonsense this “family business” can dish out.

      Sure, family businesses can run perfectly fine, but the ones that do aren’t looking for candidates who need to be forewarned about (mostly) standard issued anatomy. The good ones are usually so busy demonstrating they are the exception to the dreaded “family business” stigma that you didn’t even know it was one.

      What I find odd is that you didn’t mention seeing any troubling behavior in your interviews aside from these comments. If they acted completely professionally in all other areas, I would ask more probing questions as suggested but still be very skeptical.

      1. Saraquill*

        He tested me with three teapots, asking me to assess them with minimal equipment, excluding a color gauge. It turned out one of the teapots was actually a French press and I got the colors wrong without a reference to fall back on. Interviewer went on to say teapot evaluations aren’t part of my job description, but I’d be asked to help out during my downtimes.

        I found all of that odd, but the comments above stuck out more in my head.

    9. Lana Kane*

      I’d be asking for examples of why you’d need a strong backbone, especially since this hasn’t been your experience over almost a decade. I suspect it’s the typical dynamics of being a non-family member in a family-run business, but I’d want to hear it from them.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      Oof! I read “strong backbone” as the owner of this small family business is likely to be extremely demanding at best, or a total nasty jerk at worst.
      Definitely red flags. If you move forward I’d really probe what they mean by this and try to get a better lay of the land.

  59. Lynn*

    When should I disclose having anxiety to my new employer? I recently was offered a position in a small office and this will be my first permanent job since college (previous experience was an on-campus student assistant and large-chain retail). My interview and interactions with the company has been all positive. The owner who I’ve been in contact with seems impressed with my skillset and professionalism, even commenting how overqualified I was but delighted to have me on the team.

    I start next week and I’m anxious about having imposter syndrome or not doing well in the new environment/job duties for the first few weeks and my supervisor/the owner thinking I’ve tricked them. In the past, my PCP diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder but I don’t have any documentation of that. At what point should I discuss this with my new boss, if at all? I think the only accommodation I need is extra patience, which shouldn’t be hard to ask for…but how would I ask?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I wouldn’t unless it comes up. They’re going to be patient with you off the bat as a new hire, and you’re not really asking for a formal accommodation of any kind. After awhile you’ll know if you trust your company with that information and if they actually need to do anything differently to make your work life easier. Until the time for that ask arises I think it falls under medical information they don’t need.

    2. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      DO NOT discuss this with your boss. Keep your private medical details private. There is absolutely no upside to disclosing anxiety or any other mental illness to an employer, ever. They might say they’re supportive, but most people have conscious or unconscious biases about mental health. Don’t sabotage yourself in this way, please. Talk about this with a therapist, not the person who has the power to take away your paycheck and health insurance.

      1. Ozzie*

        While I agree they shouldn’t really disclose it in this case – especially not as a new hire – I have to disagree that there is NO reason to EVER disclose, etc. I’m not saying that’s never the case (as there are certainly bad employers out there), but I don’t think it’s a fair blanket statement to make, and it risks seriously misleading the poster about how to handle mental health concerns in the workplace.

        There are absolutely official channels to go through at most employers (check with your local laws of course, as well as what HR channels exist within a company), because there are definitely bad employers out there. But you can also assess case-by-case what disclosures may be appropriate, and to whom, depending on your workplace. I say this as someone who has been greatly accommodated – unofficially – by their manager as well as hiring around anxiety, because it was possible to do so. We have also worked to accommodate said manager. Because we’re reasonable human beings who want our coworkers to be healthy.

        If you find yourself in a place where you do not feel safe doing so, obviously do not. Also probably work on finding a new job… because if you -can- avoid working in a place like that, I’ve found that it’s better to do so.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        While in this case, as a new hire, I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by disclosing their mental health issues to their boss, I do not agree that there’s never a time and a place to let you boss know about your mental health. I have found the people I have worked for to be very supportive when I have needed to disclose for a variety of reasons. You have to know your boss (which is why I wouldn’t do it straight off) and you have to know your coworkers, but I have found most people I have worked with to be supportive and understanding.

    3. LGC*

      In your case – you probably don’t need to. My bar for disclosure is either 1) it’s definitely going to directly affect your job or 2) you’re willing to deal with any blowback. From what you said, a lot of this is “what ifs.” I’d honestly suggest that – if you don’t currently have a therapist or someone else who’s trusted in your life – you get someone to talk to! And you can just see how the first bit goes and then revisit – if you actually do struggle, then you can ask to slow down a bit and most good employers should do so.

      (Also, for your sake – if you’ve been formally diagnosed with anxiety – get documentation!)

      1. Lynn*

        I’ve been wanting to get a new therapist but currently waiting on insurance to get back to me. I confide in my significant other who says I should be okay to not say anything because I’m a new hire and learning is part of that. We’re both young adults barely getting into our first jobs out of college so I wanted advice from more experience, so thank you!

    4. Erica*

      I just want to say that it is always OK to tell people around you, including coworkers and supervisors when you are having a challenging time a need some extra patience. You can make the choice to tell them about your diagnosis or just say “I am feeling a little anxious today, so please be patient with me. “

  60. Oh, the POSSIBILITIES!*

    I took the job I was offered last week, but now I’m surprised by all the mixed emotions in feeling. I’ve never felt sad about leaving a job, even one I love. This time, I feel sad, excited, happy, relieved, nervous, and more. I know I can do the job, but I am scared to be a first time manager. And I feel really sad when meetings focus on a retreat I will now miss. Any advice on managing my emotions is appreciated.

    1. Policy Wonk*

      The best advice I can give you is to remember that there are two parts of the equation, and balance them. You are sad about leaving from [current job] and excited about going to [new job]. There are a whole host of emotions that go along with each part. So while you will miss that retreat, you will get to do (something you are looking forward to in the new job, or you won’t have to sit through that boring retreat secssion where Fergus usually pontificates about issue X.

      Congrats and good luck on the new job!

    2. ferrina*

      This is so, so normal. I know I get hit especially hard when the world is more chaotic- even I’m personally isolated from the world’s chaos, I’m acutely aware that I’m leaving familiarity. Even if my logical side knows that I’m in a good situation and things are going well for me, my emotions are going to do what they’re going to do.

      So be gentle with yourself. Do things you enjoy. Gently focus on the future and your new job, but if you feel yourself start to hyperfocus, bring yourself back to the present. Congratulations on your new job!

  61. Birdie*

    My manager has been really bad. Not malicious, just……bad. She largely works from home since Covid and even before that, she was not proactive, not a good communicator, all that. But the working from home almost exclusively has exacerbated her bad manager qualities. I can go weeks without hearing from her, other than the occasional group e-mail. Throw in she went on leave for 3 months last summer AND another team member left when she went on leave who was not replaced, and I suddenly found myself drowning under the amount of work. And when boss came back from leave, nothing came off my plate.

    That last six months since her return have been awful, with her just ignoring any concerns I had, including some very big ones. Very conflict avoidant, to the point where her style seems to be “If I just ignore it, it will resolve itself.” I’ve been complaining to grandboss/Executive Director for a long time now about how our team feels has zero leadership and how my concerns get ignored, that I’m burned out, angry, tired of being expected to work at this crazy level for very under-market pay. Other people in the office have told me they reached out to boss to say they see problems and she needs to address them. There’s no way my dissatisfaction was unknown.

    I resigned this week for a new job, and because my immediate boss is so uninterested in me, I negotiated directly with the ED about my departure. He’s so aware of the dysfunction that he even offered to tell my boss directly. We decided I would submit my formal resignation via e-mail to the ED and my boss after I told the person I manage, which I did on Wednesday. Boss has yet to respond to my email. Now here’s where it gets REALLY weird: she actually came into the office yesterday, asked me “How are you today?” and then said nothing else!

    What the heck do I do? Of course ED is on a trip and unreachable. I know boss got the email because other people have told me she’s a) freaking out and b) incredibly mad at me “for blindsiding her.” Do I call or e-mail her and say “You can’t just ignore this?” Do I just play this little game with her and act like everything is just all hunky dory? What am I missing here?

    1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

      i would pretend everything’s fine. she likes ignoring situations and pretend everything is fine, so you can give her that same treatment.

    2. Ozzie*

      Not your responsibility to deal with. Just do your prep work for your departure to make sure you’re covered on that end, but if she’s not going to ask you about it, I don’t think that’s on you. (especially after brushing you off for this long)

      1. Kes*

        I agree with this. I wouldn’t bother dealing with her or trying to force her to acknowledge what’s going on, I would just do whatever preparations make sense for your departure, to wrap things up and document as much as possible, and then skate on out and be glad you escaped

      2. MsM*

        Yep. Document whatever you consider essential documentation for your successor, let ED and/or any other trusted coworkers know where that information lives (if you want, you can cc manager for formality’s sake) and maybe try and touch base with them to see if there’s anything they need to cover with you or would like training/notes on before you go, and go. If manager refuses to engage with managing your transition, then manager doesn’t get to complain if you don’t cover something she wanted covered.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’m glad you’re getting out! I would send an email asking her when is a good time to meet to discuss transition of your (crazy huge) workload, and cc the ED. That way, assuming she just ignores that too, at least you have a paper trail showing you have tried to do this. You can’t make her care and if the ED continues to be unwilling to do anything about the situation, you’ll be well rid of the whole place.

    4. beach read*

      What response are you looking for? Sounds stressful but… yay! You’re getting out! Do the best you can with what you’re doing, and don’t stress the rest. I have learned I can’t control the actions/reactions of others, only my own!
      If the ED wanted change, there would have been change.

  62. AN*

    How do you respond when people at work inquire about a seriously ill family member? A few people at work know my dad isn’t well, but they don’t know the details. Sometimes they will casually ask how he is or if he’s better. I think they’re just being polite or maybe care on a surface level, but I don’t think they want to hear that he’s actually not doing well at all and the prognosis isn’t good. What am I supposed to say? It doesn’t feel right to lie, but I also don’t want to drop a bomb on the conversation or start crying. I choose not to share a lot of personal information at work because I’m a private person and I’ve regretted it when I’ve done it in the past.

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      “Oh, I don’t want to talk about that at work. How are those TPS reports coming along?”

      1. AN*

        I don’t know, that feels a little rude to me. I get what you’re saying, and I know no one is entitled to know all the details, but I do think they mean well, and I want to acknowledge that.

        1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

          “I know you mean well, but I don’t want to talk about that at work. How are those TPS reports coming along?”

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I think some people really do care when they ask and it wouldn’t be a bad thing to tell them (if you wanted to, but it sounds like you don’t).

      I would just say something vague, “Hanging in there, thanks for asking”. If they ask more, just let them know that you’d rather not talk about it.

      I’m sorry about your dad!

    3. Ozzie*

      I recently went through this with my grandmother, and I was definitely uncomfortable when people asked. Because it wasn’t going well, and it wasn’t something I wanted to talk about. I handled it very poorly (in that, I was just very emotional), but I think a simple “I appreciate your asking, but I don’t want to talk about it at work, please” said gently (as opposed to firm/matter-of-fact), might do the trick? I would wager that they also don’t want to talk about it at length, but do care about your well-being enough to ask. Then just give them a beat to respond if they want, and turn to the topic at hand. Ideally it won’t feel as though you’re brushing them off, but does still take care of your own needs. But i don’t think there’s a “good” thing for anyone to say in this type of situation.

    4. ThatGirl*

      They’re asking because they care about you (at least on a surface level) or are making polite conversation. It’s okay to say “not great, but I’d rather not talk about it” or “we’re taking it one day at a time” or “hanging in there” or whatever brief nicety you’d like. You don’t have to lie, but it’s okay to gloss over the truth if the real truth is too hard.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I’ve been through this with my dad (who thankfully recovered from a massive heart attack but only after a month in the hospital, nearly dying a few times and surgery) and more recently, our dog’s decline. (Not that my dog is the same as my dad, but people would ask about him!) It’s OK to only tell something when there’s something to tell (e.g. he’s out of the ICU, he’s home, he’s gone).

      2. OTGW*

        I agree. This is usually what I default to when I’ve had stints with my dad in the hospital. I’m sure all your coworkers genuinely care how your dad is doing—no one wants anyone to deal with parents in the hospital.

    5. kina lillet*

      Try responding to the sentiment instead of the content of the question. “Oh, thank you for thinking of us!” And then change the subject.

    6. AN*

      Thank you everyone for your suggestions. It was especially helpful to hear from people who have been through something similar.

    7. WellRed*

      He’s doing as well as can be expected, thank you for asking. Did you see the memo about…

    8. Policy Wonk*

      I appreciate your asking. We’re just taking things one day at a time. (With someone pushy you may need to add something like: It’s not good and I’m not able to talk about it. Then purposely move away.)

    9. Green Goose*

      Thanks for asking this! When a coworker told me that his dad was getting chemo I would ask about his dad periodically but it was not a good situation. I never knew if it was better to ask or not, but I did care about my coworker and ultimately decided it was better to ask occasionally. We don’t work together anymore so I’m not sure what happened. I think a lot of people are just clueless and say the wrong thing. There is a podcast called “Terrible, Thanks for Asking” and it talks about how people are notoriously bad about dealing with grief and other people’s grief. Sorry you are going through this, AN.

      1. AN*

        I think you’re right, people just don’t know what to say or how to act. What someone wants probably depends on the individual person and your relationship with them. I told a former coworker who I’ve kept in touch with and thought was a friend that my dad was sick on October, and I haven’t heard from him since. I know he probably just doesn’t know what to say, but it still hurts.

      2. AN*

        I want to add that your coworker might have really appreciated you asking. I’m just not close to anyone at my current job at all. We really only know each other as employees of the company and not as real people. At my last job, I would probably have told some of my coworkers and would not have minded them occasionally asking about him if we were close and I thought they were sincerely interested and concerned for me.

  63. Jessica*

    So I left my first public library job post-grad school after 10 months. I’m in my fifth month at another public library and I’m interested in an academic library job in my hometown. Knowing academia has a long hiring process, I think I’ll be 6 months or more in my current job.

    My question is if I can erase my previous 10-month job (I had also graduated that year if that helps) and just have my current job as my most recent.

    1. Anne of Green Gables*

      In this scenario I would recommend not removing the first job. Competition for library jobs right now is fierce. I’d want to be able to list multiple library jobs on my resume. Also, are there tasks or areas of focus from that first job that you don’t have in the current job? If yes, they definitely keep the first job on there.

      My other argument, as someone at an academic library: my HR is super strict. If the minimum requirement is for 1 year of library experience, they count the months and I cannot interview someone who has only 11 months experience. Period. This is specific to my institution, yes, but also isn’t super uncommon in academia. Six months in your current job isn’t long, you want it to be clear you have more library experience than that.

    2. Scotlibrarian*

      If you do that you’ll have a 10 month gap, so I would think it would be better to include it. Did you learn anything at all in the 10 month job? If so, do include it as it will make you look like a more experienced candidate

  64. Floundering*

    How have folks navigated leaving an institution that’s terrible, racist, sexist, abusive when you want to not support the institution anymore but are aware that people who are just trying to survive in your team are still there? My manager (I’m the second most senior person) just left and is telling me that by giving information to members of the team that it’s just helping the institution, and thus perpetuating the harm. I honestly am not mentally in a place where I would be able to handle the stress and pressure that would come from being just totally stubborn and not saying anything, so had been transparent with them that my strategy is to give the minimal information necessary when asked a direct question, but they are telling me this is still perpetuating that violence.

    I just want to get out, say the least I can say to help the institution, talk to OEO and those in HR who give a shit about what I’ve seen, and not f***over the team members who I know want to leave but can’t leave for another few months due to their own personal situations. This feels impossible, so I would appreciate anyone’s advice who’s been in a similar situation.

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      I don’t understand parts of your post, but just leave. Your coworkers’ abilities or inabilities to leave this job are none of your business. You’re getting emotionally tangled up in this job in a way that is not healthy or normal. This isn’t actually an abusive relationship, it’s just a job. Just leave.

      1. Floundering*

        To clarify, I have found a new job and am on my way out – this is in the final few days. I don’t think I can handle the pressure of having nothing but stress and anger these last few days, which is where I am struggling to find a balance of not giving any help to the shitty parts but also just g-ing tfo with as little additional harm to myself as I can.

    2. Generic Name*

      So you’ve officially resigned and are working out our notice period, correct? How long is your notice period? If it’s longer than 2 weeks, cut it to 2 weeks. I agree that you sound super emotionally wrapped up in what’s going on at your company. Are you able to wrap up any tasks and transfer your workload to coworkers? I would focus on that. Don’t worry about setting anything “right” or sending any messages, either directly or indirectly, about how your company does stuff. Decline any requests for exit interviews or any meetings to discuss anything other than the mechanics of your workload.

      Are you hoping for a good reference from this company? Is it important to your personal success and ongoing career to have a good relationship with this company? If the answer to both is “no” and you don’t care about burning a bridge, I don’t think there’s anything stopping you from making your resignation effective immediately and walking out of there on the spot.

    3. MsM*

      Your ex-manager is gone. If what they’re trying to say is that you shouldn’t bend over backwards to make yourself available to answer questions or provide help once you leave, or simply to protect your own boundaries and be okay with saying “no” to things when you have to, that’s valid advice, although they’re still ultimately your boundaries to draw. Otherwise, though, I really don’t think they get to dictate your decisions in terms of how you navigate getting yourself out. And frankly, “if you’re not actively sabotaging the system, you’re complicit in it” just feels like a different brand of toxicity. At most, I’d give a generic “thank you for your input,” brush the rest off, and weigh whether you really need to stay in contact with them.

  65. Hospital Receptionist*

    For about a year I’ve been a receptionist in a hospital. I previously worked in hospitality but switched to the medical field after loosing my previous job due to the pandemic. I really like my job—I enjoy interacting with patients and the rest of the medical team, being in the hospital environment, my schedule is flexible—but the pay is meh, and there doesn’t seem much room for improvement unless I want to go into an office manager type role.

    I do get to meet lots of different clinical and non-clinical hospital employees, and I’m fascinated by all these different jobs I’ve never heard of before (examples: unit secretary, radiation tech, medical assistant, etc), and wonder if one would be a better fit for me. Is there anything like a reliable “field guide to hospital/healthcare jobs” that I could use to learn about the day in the life of different jobs, required school/training/experience, and typical schedule and pay? Or a specialized career counselor I could access somehow?

    Unfortunately my direct boss is also an outside hire from hospitality and isn’t a good resource. But I’d appreciate any resources readers might know of! Especially for jobs outside of RNs—they are super open and have told me all about it!

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Background: I’ve been in health information management, specifically working with the revenue cycle for (Jiminy christmas) going on 18 years now. I am a Registered Health Information Administrator (certified through AHIMA) and have two medical coding certifications through the AAPC, and currently manage a team of outpatient surgery coders for the largest hospital system in my state. I started out in a medical assisting program, but blood makes me queasy, so I switched to admin. :)

      Resources to look at: I would start with those two organizations I just mentioned, AHIMA and AAPC. AHIMA has a “Health Information 101” page that talks about different HIM careers. AAPC is more focused toward medical coding, but also does certifications for billing, auditing, clinical documentation improvement, compliance, etc, so they’ll have some information about those types of areas as well. Your best go from an educational standpoint is to take a look at community colleges around you and look for a 2-year program in HIM – that should include a range of topics from anatomy and terminology to coding and billing functions, and should prepare you to sit certification exams if you decide to go that route.

      I’m best suited to speak to coding specifically, since that’s where I’ve spent the majority of my career, and for that, I can tell you it’s pretty much impossible to get a coding job without a certification if you aren’t someone like my mom who has already been a coder for 30 years and just never bothered to take the test. (And if you are one of those, be expecting that your job will come with a requirement that you will take and pass the test to become certified within x many months.) Luckily, there are more and more educational programs leaning into that these days.

      Happy to answer questions!

  66. Perpetual Job Seeker*

    My company hired someone at the same title as I have to someone with half as much experience and who is missing experience in a huge chunk of what I do day to day. Their BS reasoning was that the salary she asked for it was in line with this title and not the one under me, and they really need headcount.

    On top of my already ridiculous workload I’m now expected to train her on this big thing that she doesn’t have any experience in.

    I was already feeling demoralized, overworked and unappreciated and now I just want to get out as fast as I can. Does anyone have advice on how to cope in The meantime?

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      Yeah, look for a new job. Think about your own worth, and your own future. That’ll cheer you up!

    2. Ozzie*

      Once she’s trained up, will she reduce your workload at all? Since you’re training her on said big thing?

      Having to train someone new on top of everything else never really makes anyone feel BETTER about their job in the short-term, since it is so much extra work. But if it comes with the payoff that once the training is completed, you will slowly hand some of your work off, that can make it a little easier to stomach, since you know it will get better.

      Also, and I’m sure you know this but it bears repeating because it can be hard to remember when we’re exhausted and frustrated, make sure to keep in mind that this hiring choice is the fault of your company, not the person you’re training. She likely has no idea about any of what is making you feel demoralized around her hiring, and is just excited to have a new job. I’m not saying you need to be bright and shiny and sunny or anything, just don’t unintentionally reflect your frustration back at her. (again, I’m sure you logically know that, but you’re in a crappy situation)

    3. MsM*

      “Just to clarify, my priority here is training Newbie? Because that means I won’t be able to get to X, Y, and Z at least until next week – possibly longer, since I’m finding I need to cover a lot of the fundamentals.”

      They need headcount more than they need you free to do your actual work? Don’t try and absorb the tradeoffs for them: let them know exactly what that decision costs, including how much you’re willing to go above and beyond here.

  67. voluptuousfire*

    Good news: I GOT A NEW JOB!! Turns out an old colleague was looking for someone and she had me in mind. Two phone calls and I got an offer. :) Helps to have a great rep and colleagues who were happy to bring you on if something came around.

    I got a nice pay bump and I’m back to using the tools I love and overall it’s just a better fit. I get to have my hands in so many projects and keep myself busy. I also get to keep working from home. I’m so excited!

    I have to laugh though–I had so, so many interviews that went well but didn’t pan out and got feedback that I was an excellent candidate, interviewed well and my experience is great but they were moving forward with a candidate that has x magic factor I don’t (and it wasn’t anything I could learn outside of work to bridge that gap). I thought my next role was going to come from someone I worked with and I was right.

    2. Small houseplant*

      I keep getting that feedback too! I’m always like…great, thanks, I think…I just moved, though, so I don’t really have a network here.

      1. allathian*

        Possibly. But whether it does or not, I expect it would get more readers and comments in the Friday good news thread.

  68. anonon*

    I received a follow-up email from an interview from 2 weeks ago, saying that the search is ongoing, and that they would like to keep my candidacy open but want to confirm that I am still interested.

    This reads to me like I am a second choice and they are negotiating with the first, and want to make sure I’m still interested if negotiations are unsuccessful. But any insight? I honestly had moved on from this role because it seemed like that had a clear incumbent, and I’m trying to manage expectations.

    1. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      I think this means exactly what it says. There’s no way for any of us to know otherwise. Continue to apply elsewhere. Your instinct to temper your expectations is correct.

    2. Anne of Green Gables*

      Maybe? But if that’s true AND they are asking, it seems like maybe they have reason to believe their #1 will turn them down for whatever reason. If you would still be interested, I’d say so. As someone who hires, I frequently have more than one person in the pool I’d be thrilled to hire, so try not to give any weight to the possibility that you are a second choice.

    3. DinosaurWrangler*

      I don’t think it reads like you are the second choice. I think it means that you’re a contender, but that they aren’t making any decisions until they interview a few more people.

      They want to I know if you’re still interested so they know whether to keep you in the “possibles” group.

      Some places don’t take the first person who’s good for the job. They wait until they have a few finalists so they can compare.

      Just keep applying for other jobs. The process is almost always longer than you’d like.

    4. PollyQ*

      It might mean you’re a second choice, or it might mean that there’s been some kind of holdup on the process as a whole, or it might mean that it’s taking as long as they thought it would, but given recent hiring challenges, they want to let you know that they’re still interested in you. Weirdly, keeping your original assumption, that you should emotionally move on, is probably the sanest response.

  69. Cheetos*

    I’m a department manager and have been with my company for a few years. My question is about people in your department (or company, in general) who have “senior” in their title. I’m not asking about the senior vice president title. I’m asking about titles such as, “Senior Business Analyst” or “Senior Staff Accountant.” I’m curious as to what makes them senior and what is expected of them.

    When I think of a senior (insert position), I think of them as the one who is senior in terms of knowledge and experience, though not necessarily having been there the longest; being the go-to person and a general resource for others; usually training the more junior people; and having some leadership qualities, such as helping the others reach their goals and setting a good example in general. This is how it was at all my previous companies.

    In my current company, however, the senior person in my department is senior because of their knowledge, experience, and time with the department. There is nothing leadership-related written into their job description at all, not even helping to train others or being a resource. They will do it if asked; however, they usually won’t take the initiative and generally do not perform at the level of someone who is senior to other department members. Of course, they see themselves as a rock star, whereas their performance review is barely Meets Expectations, and that’s being generous. (But that’s a different story.)

    1. Liam Neeson's Skill Set*

      I’ve seen several places that will bump someone to senior after say 5 years at a company. It’s a way of saying, “Here’s a title increase. Don’t know if you will get a raise, but you have a title.”

    2. SnowyRose*

      Senior for us is knowledge, experience, and time in the role. They do serve as a knowledge resource and may be asked to provide training to newer employees by their manager, but that kind of depends on the position level within the organization. For example, a senior associate (associate is a grade higher than an entry-level assistant) would absolutely be expected to train a newer associate on specific tasks or processes. Professional development such as helping others reach their goals is an expectation of a person’s manager. Additionally, they may be given more independence in tasks, etc.

      It really comes down to what your position descriptions say and how your organization has defined it. In our case, associate and senior associate are the same position, so making someone senior is a way to recognize someone’s experience in their role through title change and a bump in salary. It’s not a promotion to the next level such as associate to project manager.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Hilariously, in engineering, ‘senior’ can be as few as 7 years. It usually goes Associate Eng, Engineer, Senior Engineer, Principle Engineer, Lead Engineer (not quite sure about the last two as I’m not there yet). While it roughly corresponds to experience and time, I wouldn’t necessarily associate it with leadership, depending on the company.

    4. Kes*

      I don’t think senior necessarily denotes leadership, to me – in my experience those often have other titles (lead/manager/principal/etc). At a minimum I would expect more knowledge, experience and/or capability – generally that they should be able to handle more and/or more complex work. Often there is some expectation that people in these roles would help more junior team members at least to some level, although not always and sometimes this is more just implied or something that arises naturally from people on their way to leadership roles.
      I think there are cases where people could be senior based on how good they are at their job even if they lack the skills in leadership/mentorship (though in many cases I would think that might be something their manager might encourage them to work on. But if they’re good enough they might be able to get away with it.)
      In your case it sounds like they were promoted based on time served but aren’t that good at their job and don’t take initiative. Not clear if you’re directly their manager but I would think their manager could work with them on areas of improvement (of course, if they’re not doing that great a job you may want to consider whether you’d even want them to be training people, vs focusing on improving their own work first)

      1. Cheetos*

        I manage the department. There’s an assistant manager and she manages the analysts. So I manage them indirectly. And yes, this senior isn’t very good. When I first arrived everyone seemed to think he was a rock star, so I thought so, too. But as time went on and certain staffing changes have happened, we’ve realized he’s not. He’s always the first one to try to take a shortcut, which is something we really can’t do most of the time, or to try to get out of doing something. He rushes and makes a lot of careless mistakes. We have to correct his writing (we’re research and writing-intensive). Honestly, we have to manage him more closely than the interns! We’re working on a plan, though.

    5. Mockingjay*

      I have ‘Senior’ in my title. While it’s tied to years of experience, in my company seniors are expected to work more independently (big self-paced projects instead of being issued specific tasks), teach junior employees advanced skills, and volunteer for stretch or overflow assignments. You are correct that it’s a company expectation. I’ve had senior titles at other companies and it was simply the next higher title in the list.

      1. Cheetos*

        Yes, this is exactly how it was at a previous company. I was the department manager, and I had one senior analyst and four regular analysts. The senior would do exactly what you say your company expects. It worked very well, she really enjoyed it, and it helped her to eventually move on to a management role. She was already a senior when I arrived so I had no part in shaping the role. The company prior to that was the same way, although I wasn’t a manager at the time and my department didn’t have any seniors. With the current company, he, too, was already in the role when I arrived and I had no part in shaping it (I wish I did!). But here it seems to be the experience, knowledge, and time with the department that makes him a senior. I’ve talked to my boss and HR about potentially changing the job description and they’re 100% on board; however, if that happens, I don’t see him being willing or able to fill that role.

    6. Wordybird*

      At a previous company, I had a coworker whose title changed from [Title] to Senior [Title] within the first couple years of their employment as a way to “reward” them for their work for the company without needing to give them a full promotion. They were a department-of-one for another couple years after that so there was no one for them to manage or be senior to (and no way for them to move to another department); it was just an ego stroke of sorts during a time at which leadership was leaving or changing.

    7. allathian*

      Promoting an employee to a senior subject matter expert can be a way to promote people without giving them managerial responsibilities. In my org, it’s definitely something that you earn by tenure, nobody will ever be hired directly into a senior SME role, because that implies organizational knowledge that a new hire simply can’t have, in comparison with people who’ve worked for the org for 3, 5, 9, or in my case, nearly 15 years.

      1. Clisby*

        Same where I worked as a computer programmer – but tenure would not be enough to get you the promotion. You had to be taking on more and more complex work.

  70. Liam Neeson's Skill Set*

    Happy Friday, Commentariat!
    tl;dr: Would you ever provide feedback to a job where they are obviously unicorn hunting?
    I applied for a job yesterday. I’ll skim over the fact that the interviewer monologued for the first 40 minutes and the “God Bless America” self-published books left on the coffee table in the waiting room, and the distinct lack of masks in a state that still has a mask mandate. But what got me was the job.
    Originally, it was a team of two. Then it became one person’s job and they absorbed it. For them, it was natural because they’d been doing it a long time. Looking in from the outside, it was a mess. The interviewer even mentioned how hard it was to find qualified applicants.
    I’ve been “chef, cook, and bottle washer” at a job before. This was more like farmer, harvester, trucker, mechanic, chef, maitre d’, waiter, cook, bartender, scullery and probably Uber driver to pick up the customer too.
    I realize it’s a small company ~100 employees total, but in my professional opinion, it is way too much to expect one person, especially at the salary they were offering.
    I will be writing to their HR later today to withdraw my application. I’m wondering if I should respectfully point out that they are expecting too much. I wouldn’t bring money into it, just point out that they are really wanting too many unique and obscure skill sets in one person and should consider splitting the role.

    2. awesome3*

      It doesn’t sound like you have anything to lose if you do, and if they are open to the feedback it would be great for them to know.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      You could phrase it like “Withdrawing blah blah blah. Job is not a good fit for me, I’m looking for a much more focused role with tasks mainly in one or two areas. While company seems great (lie), this role is clearly in 6 areas”

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      Would you want one of the roles if it was split? If so, angle your email to suggest a split that is favorable to you and say you’d consider that role!

      1. Liam Neeson's Skill Set*

        Not really. There were enough other red flags that turned me off from the company, not just the job.

  71. social work data nerd*

    Anybody who works in a tech company that serves to social service/government clients want to give me some perspective? I’ve worked in the program side of the nonprofit world for approximately 8 years. I want to move toward program evaluation work, but jobs at the salary level I need are limited with my current skills.

    I’ve got a 2nd interview today with a VP at the case management software company my organization uses for a business analyst positon. My understanding of the position is that I would work with new customers on setting up their system and be a liaison between the customer and the development team. I would also work with sales on determining whether we can meet the client’s needs. I think I will enjoy helping clients understand how their systems can be set up and the best way to meet their needs. I really like the software and have had a really positive relationship with the company over the last 3 years. Its a fully remote position which is very attractive to me. I would learn SCRUM, build skills in project management, and likely other technical skills.

    However, I also think I would miss actually designing data and evaluation projects and analyzing data. While I think I’d learn some new skills, it feels like somewhat of a departure from program evaluation which is what I think I really want to do. (Of course, I could take the software job and find I absolutely love it). A complicating factor is that I have a 1st interview next week with a local nonprofit for a data analyst job focused on an area I really care about. However, I think there may be other candidates for this position with more technical skills, and I think if I were to receive an offer from the database company, I would have to make a decision before knowing about the nonprofit job.

    I know this is LOTS of IFs and I should just focus on doing my best in the interviews and see what happens, but if anyone has any perspective, I’d also love to hear that.

  72. awesome3*

    On call night shifters: what is your routine? Do you go to bed like normal? Act like it’s daytime? Sleep in your work clothes? When you finish a call and get home, do you go back to sleep? Anything I left out would be helpful too!

    1. LC*

      I’ve never worked on call night shift (bar a random day or two that were very specific circumstances) but my husband did for a while.

      Unless he had reason to believe it would be a particularly busy night, he usually just treated it like a regular night, went to bed at his normal time, etc. He just made sure the volume on his phone was way up. This probably wouldn’t work if you’re a very deep sleeper.

      If it was something like a 15 minute phone call, he’d usually just go back to sleep and do his regular schedule the next day, but anything more than that, he’d get some sleep and start late the next day, based on how much he worked overnight. If something happened not too long before he’d start anyway, he’d probably just stay up and keep working, then leave early.

      I imagine a lot of that is fairly prescribed by the company though, rather than having people do it their own way. Either way, I think a good employer would be open to specific asks though, like if you feel strongly that you’d be most successful with a couple hours sleep before you start again but they normally want people to just work through and leave early.

      Definitely ask about comp time (or whatever they call it) though! I think some places consider any time spent with on call stuff as in addition to your regular hours, and some shorten the next day or a future day based on how much you spent working on call. However they do it, make sure you’re clear on what they expect and that they’ll be paying you appropriately (which can vary wildly, so definitely not a one size fits all).

    2. Anon for This*

      I’m not sure if this will be relevant to you, because I can work from home when I’m on call for evenings/nights.

      But for me, I basically treat the night as very normal, albeit low key. I get in my PJs early and try not to do anything too taxing. If your work clothes are comfortable enough to sleep in and won’t get too wrinkled/smelly… I mean, I would be unashamedly sleeping in my work clothes.

      When I finish a work task, I go back to bed. Unless I’m too awake to sleep, in which case I usually have a snack and watch TV/read until I feel able to sleep again. I try not to have caffeine, but if needs must…

      Like LC said, definitely ask if you can get comp time for nights where you don’t get any sleep (if you’re working days). I usually only sleep in an extra hour or two, so I can let my manager know at the start of the day that I’ll be a few hours late. The comp time is also a big help for getting chores done (if you don’t have a partner/housemate who helps you). I meal prep or buy prepared foods for the weeks I’m on call but it’s still really hard to keep up with meals and dishes and laundry during busy weeks. It helps a lot if I can prepare the weekend before.

  73. Jessica Ganschen*

    As I’ve mentioned before, my manager is working on getting an FTE position added to our team (currently he and his manager are pushing our needs up to my great-grandboss), with an eye toward me being moved into it with basically a cursory re-interview. I haven’t asked about title or salary since nothing has been determined by anybody yet. My question is, when it does get to that point, how do I negotiate a salary when I’m not sure how to find equivalent positions to compare? This is my first long-term office job. Previously, I was in the Air Force and then a work study job at my community college, neither of which have any room for salary negotiations, so I don’t even have a salary history to lean on as proof of what I should be earning. My manager’s title is “Specialist – Project Coordinator” so I expect mine will be something like “Junior Project Coordinator”. However, a quick search of “Project Coordinator” on a few job sites turns up a wide variety of jobs that don’t necessarily do the same type or level of work that my manager and I do. I’ve also looked on Glassdoor to find the salaries of my manager’s peer’s direct reports, but again, I’m not sure how directly equivalent we would be considered or if a similar salary would be reasonable.

  74. Hoping to Teach*

    OH CRAP!
    I just hit submit on a application for a faculty position with a cover letter with a different university name at the end! I changed and reworded the beginning but I left the bottom the same :'(
    My choice is to withdraw my application (which requires noting WHY) 5 minutes after applying or leave it with the huge error.

    HELP

    1. fueled by coffee*

      Nobody has looked at it in the 5 minutes since you submitted it! Will it let you withdraw (the reason can just be that you uploaded an incorrect document – nobody assumes you’re the only position they’re applying to) and then reapply with the correct document?

      1. After 33 years ...*

        If it doesn’t let you do that, be ready to send a short e-mail requesting that you re-submit, to correct a typographic error?
        Stuff happens. People apply to numerous jobs in academia at the same time, and we’ve all made mistakes. A would-be colleague booked their interview travel to the wrong city – one with a name close to our town – before discovering their error. We laughed for a few minutes, and ended up hiring them anyway.

    2. Who is Baby Monkey?*

      Check if you can reapply if you withdraw (you might be able to do so anyway if you create a different account using another email). But fwiw I went on to interview with a school where I did this (also in academia). It’s not ideal, but I think committees understand that candidates are sending lots of applications in quick succession and are often willing to overlook this kind of thing.

  75. DisneyChannelThis*

    I started working remotely at new job. I have since returned to office. My first 2 weeks back there was a cleaning issue, and I was hot desking. I have an office space now. I think I maybe got literally lost in the shuffle since I didn’t have a functional desk immediately, but how do I go about asking if the job supplies office supplies? Is that a question for the admin? Or do I just assume they don’t? I’ve asked a coworker but she started much like me and just buys her own.

    In our field it’s weird not to, but it might be a thing. (Office supplies 6 types of tea, and 2 types of coffee so I doubt it’s a cost issue). My big boss is much higher up and very hands off. I don’t have an intermediate supervisor (my biggest pet peeve in this job) who would be more approachable.

    It’s just little things, like post it notes, tissues, pens, a highlighter, a wireless mouse (so that I can take to meetings instead of my corded USB one that is provided). Do I just suck it up and buy those for myself?

    1. Ginger Baker*

      100% a question you should ask the admin. It’s not a weird question and no need to feel awkward about it. (And as an admin, I have gotten variations of this email dozens of times.)

      “Hi [___],

      Now that I have an office space, what’s the process to get office supplies? I need pens, post-its, and a few other things. Do I send that list to you, or is there something else I need to do to get these? Thanks!

      DisneyChannelThis”

  76. Liz*

    I think this counts as work-related, because it’s about my writing career, which, though it has yet to make me much money, I take very seriously.

    I write young adult fiction. I’ve received offers of representation from 2 different literary agents and I’m having a hard time deciding who to go with! Both seem wonderful. I was previously agented, and my priorities in getting an agent this time are in having someone organized, passionate about my work, and trustworthy. Both agents seem trustworthy. Agent A seems extremely extremely organized, and I love it. Agent B seems… medium-organized? Agent A clearly loves my book. Agent B is wildly enthusiastic about my book, my writing, and the idea of repping me in general. Agent B is at a more well-known agency and has a longer sales history. Agent A, though… she seems utterly lovely, and is SO organized.

    I will take ANY advice you have. After countless rejections from so many agents for so many manuscripts, it is incredibly weird to find myself in this position.

    1. Groffington Thirdly*

      My immediate advice would be to go for the more organised agent because dealing with an unorganised individual in a professional capacity can be a nightmare. My secondary advice would be to a) make a pro/con list for each; and b) figure out if you’re planning on making writing your primary source of income – if so, it may be worth it to go with the more well-known agency.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Go with the more organized one. The enthusiasm feels good, but this is a business relationship and you will MAJORLY appreciate the organization in the long run.

    3. Liz*

      I should clarify that Agnet B doesn’t seem UNORGANIZED, necessarily. Not at all. It was just that Agent A came off as one of those super organized people who is always on top of everything. My previous agent was very unorganized and it left me very nervous about the issue of organization. (Also, Agent B has sold some of her clients’ books for 6-figure advances. Agent A has not made sales like that (not to say she won’t, but she’s only been agenting for 9 months).

      Does the extra info change your answer?

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Oh Agent A has zero sales? That does change my answer. That’s a big risk.

    4. Sunny*

      Congratulations that sounds great!!

      I’d go with Agent B. It doesn’t sound like they are disorganized, just not AS organized, and they have more experience.

      1. JustForThis*

        Yes. Plus: in this case, well-enough organized might be better and more efficient than extremely well organized. You want your agent to focus most of their time and energy on making connections, talking passionately about your book and negotiating an advance. This is what counts.

    5. Kes*

      I know nothing about this area but it sounds like agent A would be the better to work with but agent B might be better positioned to actually sell your book, which is kind of the point. I’d probably go with B personally, as lovely as A might seem

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes — if B isn’t disorganized, just not as hyper organized as A, I’d lean toward B. Relationships and sales really matter in that industry. (But I know the deep regret of saying no to someone who’s hyper organized, as I dearly love working with those people.)

        1. Lore*

          I second this–you also might want to take a look at who each one’s other authors are, and where they’re published. Big-dollar sales and bidding wars have as much to do with the way the market winds are blowing as with the agent’s skill, so I wouldn’t turn down A just because she hasn’t hit a six-figure advance yet, if she’s selling steadily and her books are doing okay in the marketplace. It’s the niche below that you want your agent to navigate–to turn a $15,000 offer into a $30,000 offer, or to get you cover approval instead of consultation, or a marketing guarantee. And to do that, she needs to have solid relationships with editors who buy the kind of book you write. You don’t want your agent to be also repping your closest comp, necessarily, but you do want to make sure that she’s got a genre-specific track record, because a lot of editors are getting ever more specialized and those trust relationships are everything.

          1. Liz*

            Funny you use that example. When I talked with one of Agent B’s clients, she told me how her publisher of her first book offered an advance of 10k, and Agent B turned it into 25k by the end of negotiations. That really wowed me.

          2. Liz*

            Thank you all for your advice!

            Also, surprise, there is now an Agent C in the mix. After I got my first offer, I gave the other agents who currently had my manuscript 2 weeks to decide if they wanted to offer representation. That 2 weeks ends on Tuesday. Tonight I got a third offer! We haven’t had our meeting yet, but she comes from a fantastic agency, has a decade of experience and plenty of sales, and wrote me a very very nice email (not Agent-B levels of enthusiasm, but it’s clear she adores my book). So I meet with her Monday. In the meantime I’m reaching out to some of her clients.

            This time next week I will have an agent. Just not sure who yet.

            1. Lore*

              Well, it sounds like you’re doing all your due diligence right, and the very fact that you’re in this position means that you probably can’t go too far wrong!

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Sounds like you like A better. But you know how challenging the publishing industry is – go with experience, Agent B.

      1. Liz*

        It’s not so much that I like her better, but that she feels safer. It feels a lot like dating–my former agent left me with a lot of baggage, lol, and I know I wouldn’t have to worry about that stuff with Agent A.

        1. Policy Wonk*

          I understand. You need to be comfortable with your agent. I’d still recommend Agent B, but agree that this makes it a harder decision. Good luck whichever way it goes!

  77. Groffington Thirdly*

    At what point in a new job, when you’re the junior person, do you feel like you have the capital to stand up for yourself? I have one co-worker who is really struggling to give me the responsibilities our manager has assigned to me, and she frequently tries to plan my entire workday for me. I kind of get the impression she believes I’m illiterate? As in, she will frequently point to things and read them out to me rather than addressing what I need her to address. Asking her questions often leads to a painful, rambling dive into word soup and there’s only about a 1-in-3 chance she’ll answer my question before I’m forced to ask at least twice more. Earlier this week was a bit of a ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ moment when I asked her a very specific question and instead of answering it, she ignored it entirely and outlined my entire daily workflow process as if I somehow didn’t know.

    I do not feel like this woman’s peer. A minute of trying to talk to her and I feel like a twelve year old elementary school student and she’s my special needs EA. I am trying to work out what I want to say to address it, but I’m worried I run the risk of coming off as the “know-it-all new person” if I don’t time it exactly right. But her (accidental?) condescension is becoming so dire that I can’t stand talking to her and am skirting dangerously close to ‘if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all’.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you push back verbally a little? Like you ask a specific question and she starts outlining your day can you interrupt and say “Sorry I think you misunderstand, I don’t need any help scheduling today and I don’t want to waste both our times doing that, I just need to know [repeat specific question].”

      1. dosneychannelthis*

        Or switch to emailing question instead? Still reply pushing back to specific questin. Then you have some written examples if you need to ask boss how to address it.

        1. Groffington Thirdly*

          E-mailing would be odd since she sits about ten feet behind me, and also her communications skills are even worse when you add a keyboard into the mix. She’s close to retirement age, to put it kindly, and isn’t particularly excited about technological advancements like e-mail.

      2. Groffington Thirdly*

        I can! I intend to. I wasn’t asking about what to say, but about at what point can I say it despite being the new, junior team member.

        1. After 33 years ...*

          Is there a third person you can go to? Perhaps someone who has developed a way to interact with your difficult colleague?

        2. Cj*

          I think you can do this even as a very new person, especially since she is your peer. You’re just trying to get clarification and your questions answered, it’s not like you’re coming in and trying to tell her how to do her job.

    2. Sunny*

      I would say something the next time it happens! There is no real reason to wait, especially if you are peers. Even if you are more junior you still need her to stop doing this and the only way she’ll stop is by addressing it.

    3. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I had a very toxic peer who tried to manage me (and undermine me, and throw me under the bus; she had a lot of issues and had alienated just about everyone, but it was an overall dysfunctional workplace and our bosses didn’t know how to manage). I luckily was only covering a 6 month maternity leave so I didn’t especially care what people thought of me. I talked to our manager early on and said something along the lines of “Lisa is trying to control how my staff deal with my clients and seems to think she’s in charge of me, I’m fine to deal with it on my own at this point but just need to know you’ll have my back if it comes down to it” which my boss agreed to, and then just continued to just not actually manage anyone.

      Lisa would do exactly as your coworker did- I would ask a simple question about how something was done at this particular workplace and she would start explaining the very basics of our field (which I had worked in longer than she had) to me. A nice cheerful “Nope, I get that part, just asking how we need to format?” worked ok. When she was offering completely unsolicited guidance, “I’ve got it under control Lisa, but thanks!” definitely made her mad because her intentions were not pure, but was also reasonably successful.

  78. PhyllisB*

    Last week in open thread I asked a question on behalf of my daughter looking to move and trying to find an area in the South she likes. Thank you for your responses. By the time I was able to get back to look it was late Sunday night and didn’t think anyone would see my answer so I will address this tomorrow in the weekend thread.
    My question now has to do with remote positions. I suggested to her that she could possibly find a remote position making fairly good money and live in an area where COL is lower. She was skeptical, feeling work from home was a scam. I told her that is not true anymore. I’m sure there’s still plenty of scams around, but that remote is quite common now.
    So then of course she asked me how to find these positions, and that’s why I’m reaching out to y’all. The last time I looked for work it was still look in the local want ads and send a letter of interest, so I don’t really know how to advise her. The only two I can think of are Monster.com and Indeed, and I really don’t know anything about those. She’s been working retail for the last couple of years, but she does have office experience and good computer skills. Any advice?

    1. BubbleT*

      Most places are allowing telework these days, because of Covid. Some are allowing people to continue in a hybrid schedule with a few days in the office and some teleworking as we go into Year 2 of Covid times. So it’s not uncommon. It just depends on the type of job. I’m a technical writer and work from home 50% of the time.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      There are job sites dedicated to remote work:

      weworkremotely.com
      flexjobs.com
      workingnomads.com

      It sounds like a customer service role would be a good place to start.

      1. PhyllisB*

        Thank you!! I will share these with her, and when she makes her decisions, I will update.

    3. lost academic*

      You can also just used LinkedIn and specify remote work in a filter.

      (Is Monster.com even still a thing?)

      She’s probably conflating the “earned 3k a day working from home” ads with remote positions. I didn’t see your first post, by the way, but if this is your daughter’s first job/she’s just out of college/very early in a career, I should also caution you that a lot of places don’t like to start junior staff completely remotely even right now.

      1. PhyllisB*

        I agree with what you say about work from home ads (stuffing envelopes, anyone?) that’s what I’m trying to get across to her, that remote is a legit thing these days.
        No, she’s not newly out of school and she does have some varied work experience. I think data entry or customer service is a good place to start.
        LOL!! I don’t know if Monster is still a thing or not; these were just the two that popped into my head. I know nothing about Linkedin. I don’t have a clue how to access that or how it’s useful in job hunting. I appreciate the advice.
        My kids keep asking me what “my friend Alison” has to say about various career dilemmas. I tell them they can read it just like I do, but they like to filter through Mom. I don’t really mind; they know I’m addicted to this site!! :-)

    4. I was told there would be llamas*

      I would look on Monster, Indeed, LinkedIn and maybe look for data entry type jobs. Does she have a degree? Once she finds a job she thinks she’s qualified for, if it’s just a general recruiter (not specific to a company) she could connect with them and explain what she can do and see if they have any positions, not just the particular one she sees and/or start looking at staffing company websites for jobs. She could get a temp job to start which sometimes can convert to perm or at least give her a good start. Also, some companies are still looking at where you live to determine pay…they don’t say, we’ll pay you $60k go live wherever, they’ll want to know where you live and offer a salary based on that.

    5. Lizy*

      I found my new job – fully remote – on Indeed. Yeah there’s a bunch of crappy ones but there’s definitely legit ones out there!

      For reference, I do admin and database management.

    6. beach read*

      Research the largest employers in the area and go directly to their websites to look for positions. Contact LOCAL employment agencies that may have WFH opportunities for temp or permanent positions.

  79. Det. Amy Santiago*

    I need help with approaching my current manager. I work for a contractor (Company A) and my contract will end on March 31. The company where I am placed (Company B) wants to keep me on and has talked about extending an offer (they have checked references, etc. but I haven’t received an official offer yet, so I don’t know salary or benefits).

    Company A has said they would like to keep me, too, and find a job for me in their corporate office, but they haven’t given me any information about what the job would be or in what department. So, I haven’t received any official offers from either place, but at some point I expect to hear something (hopefully before I an unemployed on March 31!!).

    I would prefer to work at Company A because I think the work might be more interesting (but of course, I really don’t know b/c I don’t know what the job will be). Can I talk to my manager there and tell them that Company B is interested in keeping me, and that I need to know what A is offering by XX date? What language should I use?

    I feel that, no matter which company I end up with, someone is going to be upset, b/c they are both working to keep me and they both seem to be trying to employ me. So this is very stressful for me. Any words of wisdom?

    Thank you!

    1. Kay*

      I don’t think you need to bring Company B up just yet, but being as it is, well.. March 4th, I don’t think a conversation along the lines of “Do you have any more information a position here? I would love to stay, but the 31st is less than a month away, and if you won’t have anything for me then I need to make alternate plans?” would be anything your current manager shouldn’t have seen coming.

      Any company that has an employee who will be out of a job in less than a month should expect to lose them if they haven’t offered an alternative by now! Did they expect you to go without a paycheck? It can take months to find a few job, so I would have expected them to iron things out much earlier to be honest.

  80. All Het Up About It*

    Help!
    Any best practices, or resources for such for writing up a justification to expand your team. I’m hiring and in looking at my top two candidates, I just asked, “Could I just hire them both?” Shockingly the answer wasn’t immediately “No”, and I need to write up the justification by end of the day. I’ve got several good points, though none of the hard numbers that I’ve worked with in the past when I had more time to prepare. (And this would be the first time writing such a request myself, instead of just assisting.)

    Thanks if anyone has any recommendations.

    1. Ozzie*

      I’ve never written one myself, but a breakdown of the hours to justify hiring 2 instead of 1 would be where I would start. Like, is there the workload to hire 2 – and what would that look like. (bonus points for including why this is a better choice for the company!)

    2. Lady Danbury*

      Is there currently enough work for both? If not, would having both allow you to expand the work that you do (in terms of volume and/or scope) to create enough work for both? What are the benefits to the department and the company of having both? Would you still want to hire one without the other if one of them turns the offer down? Would you need to make any compromises to hire both that might impact either accepting the offer?

      I was once in a similar situation, choosing between a junior and a more senior candidate. We found the budget to offer both the role. We found the budget to make offers to both. The junior accepted the role, while the senior declined because they needed more money. In retrospect, I would have preferred to have used the budget to offer more money to senior, even if it meant losing junior.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      How long did it take you to find these people? If I found an extra person during a hiring round that took a long time to find a good fit, I would point that out. We’ve run into issues where it’s taken long enough to find a new person that the current team feels overwhelmed, so this would be a good argument for me to use.

      Also, any project/side tasks that would be helpful to do that there isn’t bandwidth for currently? That’s another good argument.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Focus on the business case. I know you said you don’t have the numbers, but if you can make a WAG about how much more could get done it would help. Sorry I don’t have a sample, but emphasize the work that could be done, and how the two candidates could address it. Even better if they have different strengths so one could focus on x and the other on y.

  81. Taco Bell Job Fair*

    I have a question about taxes. I worked at this place for 2 days. I never filled out a W-4 form the place because usually if I don’t on the first few days I would later. When I asked for my W-2 he tells me he doesn’t have one. Later he tells me I don’t need one because I only worked 2 days there, and that I don’t need to pay my taxes for working there. He is right? I have worked for shorter amounts at other places and gotten a W-2 from them. Should I report this guy to the IRS?

    1. Lifelong student*

      He is wrong. Did you in fact get paid? Was there a pay-stub you can use to determine your income and withholdings? You do have to report the income and under the law, he is required to have made the appropriate withholdings. If he did not do so- there are ways to report the 1099 not received in the 1040 instructions.

    2. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

      If they paid you, you need to pay taxes. How did they pay you if you never filled out a W4?

      Real talk: Just report this as “other income.” You don’t need any form to do that. You are not going to get audited over 2 days’ worth of income.

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        +1

        Any income that you don’t have paperwork for (official IRS forms or informal paperwork, whatever), you report as “other income”. Absent a W-2, fill out a Schedule 1 — or your tax software will do it for you — and enter it on line 8-z.

        Don’t waste time wondering or worrying how your employer will or won’t report. Just do what you have to do on your end and move on to better things.

    3. fueled by coffee*

      You likely still owe taxes (source: I worked a 5-day long job as a teenager and had to file a W-2). I’m not an accountant or lawyer, though, so not sure on his liability as an employer or if there’s some legal reason why you would be exempted from this for some reason? (Unless it was, like, under the table childcare or something).

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’m not a tax professional, but that doesn’t sound right.

    5. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      Not a tax professional.
      Worked at a place that gave $400 “stipend” because, in their words, “it was the most they could pay me and not have to report it.” So – WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT THIS IS ACCURATE – unless you pulled in over $400 in two days, you would be fine.
      But I really can’t over-emphasize that caveat enough.

      1. Cj*

        I am a tax professional. This is not accurate. I have a migraine and don’t feel up to getting into the details, but if I remember tomorrow and can find this again, Ill add more then.

        1. Liam Neeson's Skill Set*

          Understood. Please don’t explain on for me – it’s beyond the range of “going back to correct/audit” but I appreciate knowing he was full of crap.

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        That figure suggests to me that they are/were probably thinking about their own limit for whether they have to issue a Form 1099 for contractors. Right now that limit is $600.00.

        There’s no such thing as a limit where the person who receives income must not report it as gross income for tax purposes. Whether you get a 1099 or a W-2 or any paperwork or no paperwork, it is income to you under the Internal Revenue Code, and you have to take it into account when you do your taxes.

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      On the question of whether this income is taxable: In the U.S. you start your tax calculation from your gross income, which is defined as “all income from whatever source derived.” It’s not “income for which you got formal paperwork.” It doesn’t matter who filed what or whether you got your W-2, 1099, etc. The person who earns the income is responsible for calculating their tax, reporting it to the IRS, and paying required taxes on it.

      On the question of whether you should report this guy to the IRS: I mean, if you have a lot of time on your hands, you could call the IRS and ask them how and what you should report him for. Personally I’d let that go, and worry about my own reporting, not my employer’s.

  82. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

    I haven’t been in job search mode for a long time. (Current job for 5 years, which I got on my first application and interview; previous job for 15 years. A few things have changed.)

    I’m doing a second interview to be the fourth person in what has been a three person team. Person 1 has been there for six years. Person 2 and person 3 (the team lead) have been there for five years each BUT 2 & 3 worked together at a previous job for a long time and the TL “brought” the other with them when they switched.

    During the first interview, the TL mentioned that they are close knit, including biking to work together for their non-WFH days (?!?) They all live in the same part of town, so it makes sense, but still. I feel confident in my skills, but that sounds like they need a social fit as much if not more than a technical fit.

    I’m guessing I’ll need to be polite but deferential, but in the past, people say that makes me seem cold and detached. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. ferrina*

      Your read is exactly right. This is a really awkward social situation to come into. There’s always some extra fit considerations when you’re going to be a new addition to a team that’s been together 5+ years, but I’d also consider how Person 1s experience has been- are they an equal part of the team, or do they seem to be an outsider to the buddies? (or all they all three buddies?)
      If they are all buddies, I’d be a little worried (unless the role truly is a lot of solo work). A lot of informal communication can happen on those times that you may not be a part of. If you click with them and are ready to spend some time with these folks, great. If not…is this a job you want?

    2. ecnaseener*

      Advice to get the job, or advice to figure out whether you want the job? Because for the second – be the version of yourself that you’re comfortable being at work, however cold or warm that may be, and let them rule you out if you’re too cold for them.

      1. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

        Pretty sure I want the job*, it was more the how to be deferential without rolling over and showing the soft and vitals.

        *the right combination of my skill set and still a challenge, at a significant raise/benefit boost compared to current. Downside is it means eliminating certain off-time activities, but it’s nothing I can’t live without.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Ok, not my area of expertise because I’m also on the less-warm-and-fuzzy side at work, but – why deferential? Polite, absolutely, but (especially since they’re a friendly bunch!) I would go for collegial rather than deferential.

          1. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

            For lack of a better term, out of respect for their relationship.
            The last time I worked in a small team for that long a time, we were “living in each others pockets.” They’ve had a lot of lived and shared experience together.

            The rest of the story is: it’s true that all four of us are trained professionals. And, at the same time, my job experience is a wee bit… feral? They have had form and structure and leadership. I’ve been the sole llama trainer in my corral with no senior trainers. I’m worried about not having the right lingo for how they do it.

          2. JustForThis*

            I full agree. If they want to hire you, then presumably because you bring valuable skills and insights to the team. So focus on contributing your skills, being friendly, responsive and easy to work with, and just let the social side develop organically over time.

          3. ferrina*

            Deferential is an odd word. Respectful is better.

            Be yourself. Don’t try to laugh at jokes you don’t know, but be friendly. Build personal connections- just because they’ve shared experiences doesn’t mean that you don’t have things in common.
            When interviewing, I like to find one non-work thing in common with my interviewer. It’s a part of my skill set- able to quickly forge connections- and it also makes me more memorable as a candidate. (“Oh, she’s the one who did that thing!”). This is true regardless of the team structure.

  83. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    Best inexpensive tablet with stylus and/or app for note taking?

    I have previously been a pen-and-paper note taker, but recently joined a company where it appears that most others have moved to using a tablet. Picture the scene in Legally Blond where Elle takes out a feathered pen when everyone else in the class has a laptop, lol. But it’s not just an appearance thing, I really was impressed at how organized their process was as opposed to my own flipping back and forth in various notebooks I was lugging around during a recent facility visit. I’ve very comfortable with technology, so it’s an old habit I’m interesting in changing up to see if it increases my productivity.

    I’ve looked around online but a lot of tablet descriptions focus on media, streaming, drawing, etc. which is not what I want to utilize the tablet for. I don’t want to pay for a bunch of features I won’t use, and am hoping to stay around the $150 – $200 price point.

    Also interested in good note taking apps, both free and paid. I kind of hate OneNote (I don’t know what it is about the interface, but I’ve had multiple false starts with it and I give up every time), but I’m open to just about anything else. Especially looking for something that will organize my notes by project and have good search functionality. Handwriting to text functionality and the ability to attach images , PDFs or other files would be great but not a deal breaker.

    Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m an Apple person and did two masters degrees on an iPad (mine is a fancier one, but the entry level one is $329 and you can use a “regular” stylus on it, you don’t have to get one of the fancy ones, they just work better) using the Notability app (which is also available on Android and desktop).

      With Notability, you can import and annotate PDFs, organize by subject/project, and the handwriting to text is pretty efficient in my experience. It includes dot paper, grid paper and lined paper, as well as blank, and about a gazillion and twelve different colors of pen/highlighter etc. I bought it for $10 like, six years ago and use it for just about everything – I believe they’ve changed their purchase model now, but I’m not 100% sure how that works because I’m grandfathered in.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Another alternative to Notability is OneNote– I think it’s Android compatible?

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I’ll be honest, I use both Notability and OneNote and to me, at least, they’re apples and oranges. I probably under-use OneNote, but that’s because I can’t figure out how to make it do most of what I use Notability for, heh.

    2. Sunny*

      I’d recommend looking into refurbished iPads or second hand stores! You might not be able to get quite down to $200 but you could get a very decent model for significantly cheaper than you could if it were new.

      I think the Samsung Galaxy tablet is also decent, though I have not used it myself. It’s way cheaper than n iPad as well. Again I’d recommend looking for second hand ones, especially if it’s mainly for notes.

    3. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      Oh jeeze, I forgot to mention because it’s my default – Android devices only please. I don’t do Apple products unless it’s to watch Ted Lasso. :)

        1. Silvercat*

          And by relatively cheap, I mean about $100 if you can get it on sale, or $130 full price

    4. Been There*

      I’ve heard a lot of good things about the ReMarkable, which might be closest to what you’re looking for.

  84. Esmeralda*

    Many thanks to all who gave advice last week about interviewing when you know everybody. It went well.

    And I have another interview with a different institution next week!

  85. Small houseplant*

    Is the best advice just to apply for everything?
    Job 1) almost full time, seasonal, just the kind of work I want in the place I want, great way to build bridges, applied and waiting to hear back. Position closes in 2 weeks. Start at end of month. Have some contacts, they all but say I’d get the job (*I know. I know! Nothing is guaranteed)
    Job 2) part time, seasonal, very similar to what I had been doing, could easily do all the work, would also build some connections.
    Job 3) full time. Different area of work. Interested in it but not my long term future goals. New things can be fun.

    Do I just apply to all 3? If they get back to me quickly ask 2 and 3 to wait until I hear from 1? Does telling someone “sorry no I took another position” burn that bridge? Even for shitty seasonal pt work?

    1. ferrina*

      Sure, if you have time/energy/inclination, apply to as much as you want. You won’t have a chance to get something you don’t apply for. But if you only have the time and energy to apply to one or two, I’d apply to the ones that you’re most interested in.

      “Sorry I took another position” doesn’t burn a bridge unless you’ve actually accepted an offer. If you are just interviewing or even if you are in the offer stage and turn down an offer for another company, this happens. As long as you are being respectful of time (like not interviewing if you know you won’t work there) and not going back on your word, you aren’t locked into a job just because you applied/interviewed/expressed interest.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Yes, go ahead and apply to all 3, keep your mind open. Withdrawing your application because you got another job is extremely normal and not bridge-burning — no one expects you to only apply to one job at a time!

    3. PollyQ*

      Yes, apply to all 3 (if you need the work and they appeal to you), and go through the process with as many as are interested in you right up until you have accepted a firm offer, all details nailed down + start date, from one. No, it will not burn a bridge if you withdraw with the reason that you have accepted another postion. I would expect that every single one of their applicants will have applied to other jobs at the same time as well. 1000000% normal behavior. Good luck!

  86. Pascall*

    Any other school district employees get 10 hour days for three weeks in the summer? Maybe that’s too specific, but our district does. In the past, we’ve been allowed to use leave hours/days to instead retain our 8-hour-day schedule. Apparently this year, that’s no longer allowed because we have “posted hours”. As a result, both my boss and I are going to request intermittent FMLA leave to reduce our schedules back to 8 hours days. We both have sleep issues and I take medication as is which doesn’t wear off until later on in the morning, so asking us to come in earlier (at 7am as opposed to 8am) and leave an hour later is a huge issue. We tried and failed to work through it last year. My boss ended up having to take several days off because she got sick and though I didn’t have any days off at that point, I suffered from poor coordination on my morning commute and dozing off throughout the day.

    No one’s ever tried to request this type of FMLA before, but our ADA coordinator doesn’t see why we couldn’t request it. So we’re gonna try. I feel like employees really get the shaft when their sleep habits and hygiene aren’t being respected or thought about and really, I’d rather just work the Fridays that we get off, rather than have to try to push through four ten-hour days. Especially when my commute is increased by an extra hour due to the time that I’m leaving, so I really end up being out of the house for anywhere between 12-13 hours each day.

    But since this is the only option we have, we’re gonna go for it. Not sure if anyone else has ever done this before, but if they have, I’d love to hear about it! I’ve never applied for FMLA like this. So it’ll probably be a bit of a minefield to navigate.

    But I need my sleep. :(

    1. avacadotacos*

      Our district does 4X10 in the summer, is that what you’re doing? Or 10 hours every day?

      1. Pascall*

        4×10. We have Fridays off and a week off in July as an exchange for doing the 4×10’s.

        But honestly I’d rather just work the week in July. Trying to force my sleep schedule to be an hour earlier is rough when I already struggle to work 8-4:30 as is. (If I had it my way, I’d work from like 11am to 7pm but unfortunately, that’s not how it works lol).

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      Double check that FMLA can be taken in that small of an increment. If that plan doesn’t work out, it sounds like an eminently reasonable accommodation with EEO.

  87. Twisted Lion*

    At my work masking has become “optional” which is beyond frustrating to me as I am immunocompromised. We are being told to come back in for more days so I am not sure what to say to people when they ask why I am still wearing a mask. Do you have any tips/line suggestions? I don’t really feel like blasting my medical information around because people get weird about it. Also my coworker is 6 months pregnant so I am trying to protect her and her baby. Yesterday someone told her to take off her mask and she just stood up showed them her stomach and gave a look.

    I was at work one day this week and NO ONE was wearing a mask but myself and the cleaning people. I walked through the building which has other groups and they are mask free as well. I just hate getting looks but I don’t know what to say. So any ideas are welcome. Should i just get a lanyard that says immunocompromised and be over it so I can point at it? UGH. Thank you!

    1. fueled by coffee*

      If you don’t want to disclose that you’re immunocompromised: “I don’t want to get sick.” Repeat verbatim every time you’re asked. If they press for more details, “A mask is less of a hassle for me than a disease.”

      Reasonable people will accept that. Unreasonable people are looking to get a rise out of you (“You want to be afraid of covid forever???????!!!!!!” or “MUH FREEDOM”), and you don’t need to try to reason with them.

      1. Twisted Lion*

        No lie, its going to be lots of unreasonable people LOL. But youre not wrong. Yelling my body my choice might help!

    2. Decidedly Me*

      “I still feel better with a mask on”
      “Masking makes the most sense to me”
      “I feel safer with a mask”
      “I want to protect myself and those around me”
      “Why are you looking at me?”

      Or, just say nothing. People can look – it’s a weird thing to look at a person for, but that’s their problem.

      1. Twisted Lion*

        The looks I will live with but last summer when we stopped masking briefly I had 6 people ask me so I am expecting it. Maybe I need to be like Alison and just say “why are you asking?” LOL

        1. Decidedly Me*

          Seriously, what is wrong with people that they can’t fathom why someone would wear a mask, even if not forced to? I’d give them all a weird stare if they ask, lol!

        2. Esmeralda*

          “Because I want to”. Really, if you don’t want to start a whole Thing and / or it’s none of their damned business why, I would not gave any details at all whatsoevr.

          If you get pushback or someone wants to engage in a Big Discussion, then maybe say something like: “Like you, I’m making a choice. I’m not going to hassle you about your choice. Why are you hassling me about mine?”

    3. ferrina*

      “It makes me feel more comfortable. And stylish- I love coordinating my masks to my outfit!”
      or “With everything having changed so quickly several times, I’ve found that just wearing a mask makes me feel safer and more comfortable. I know that’s not true for everybody, but it’s definitely better for me.” + subject change.

      It’s not cool that others are pushing your coworker to take off her mask. Wearing a mask is super reasonable and should not be up for comment. Shouldn’t be….doesn’t mean people won’t :(

    4. Liam Neeson's Skill Set*

      I highly doubt anyone will say anything, unless they are WAY nosy.
      That said, it’s amazing what a little redirection can do.
      “I’ve got a cold and don’t want to share it with you.”
      “OMG, it’s a really big zit.”
      “Couldn’t find my lipstick” (bonus points if you are male-presenting)

    5. Firm Believer*

      I’m the biggest fan proponent in the universe and still wear mine almost everywhere. But right now the mandates are being lifted and recommendations are being altered so I’m not sure there is much you can do by way of requiring others to wear them. I’ve refocused my frustration on simply making my own rules about my own protection. I totally understand your irritation though.

    6. Llellayena*

      “Last I checked, wearing or not wearing a mask is optional. I am choosing to wear one.”

      1. Llellayena*

        Adding to my comment: It’s really amazing how people see the words “optional” and “choice” as meaning that their opinion is the correct one that everyone must follow…

    7. Policy Wonk*

      I don’t wear mine but carry it with me and offer to wear it when someone else present is wearing one. Many offer explanations, but they don’t need to – we should all just respect each other.

      You can just say I’m more comfortable wearing it for now, thanks.

      (I continue to wear mine outside because it’s cold out. It keeps my face warm.)

    8. Silvercat*

      For my family a good secondary reason is “I like not getting a single cold for over two years”

      1. Nihil Scio*

        Sorry. Canadian here. Just gotta vent. We drove through Washington to get back to our place in the Kootenays (flood situation in late November) and stopped off to get gas a couple of times. The staff weren’t masked and they looked at us strangely for being masked. British Columbia has relaxed its rules and going grocery shopping/regular shopping here everyone is still masked even though they have relaxed the rules. Reading about the rules about masking in the US is weird

  88. Have you tried sparkling at it?*

    Random feedback about the open threads- would there be a way to switch them so that the newest comments appear first? That would keep comments that are posted after 11:05am EST from getting so buried

    2. Pascall*

      I like this idea too! I’m always AT work when the Friday threads are up so I’m never able to get to them right away. I’d like to start reading the newer questions people post rather than the old, already bloated discussions.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Maybe a note that new comments come in all day and to check out the bottom of the comments for more recent advice seekers?

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      Prefer the oldest first, so you can read discussions in the order they take place. I don’t want to read a reply to a comment before I’ve read the comment. It makes it too hard to follow the thread.

      1. pancakes*

        I was assuming that this option would preserve nesting rather than throwing all the comments into one big pot. That’s how it works at The Guardian, for example – the comments allow you to sort by oldest or newest first and the nesting is preserved either way. I think it’s a good option, especially when comments have run into the hundreds or thousands.

  89. Blomma*

    Calling out ableism at work?

    My office is participating in some kind of fitness challenge this month. Basically they want participants to set a step goal – with a minimum requirement of 5,000 steps per day. I have multiple chronic illnesses and am in pain 24/7, especially in one of my ankles (old injury). There’s no way I could do 5,000 steps per day right now, so I grumbled to myself about how ableist it is to have a minimum step limit because it prevents people like myself from participating and then I moved on.

    Until yesterday. One of my coworkers sent a group of us a chat message asking why we weren’t all participating in the challenge and it’s “only 5,000 steps.” I replied that I didn’t sign up because I’m unable to walk that much most days and pointed out the ableism in not allowing people to still participate by setting more reasonable goals. My coworker responded that they totally understand why I wouldn’t be able to participate and that the average person should walk 10,000 steps so the 5,000 was a lower number selected. Then another coworker chimed in and said my point about ableism was a good thing to bring up with the organizers.

    I guess my questions are…is it reasonable to think this fitness program is ableist and to be annoyed by the lack of inclusivity for disabled people? And if it is ableist (and upsets me), am I really obligated to spend spoons on pointing this out? I really try to bring up my health issues at work when it directly impacts my work needs. This doesn’t impact me that way, other than I find it offensive. Would it have been reasonable for me to suggest to my coworker that she would be welcome to point that out to the organizers. Thoughts?

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      Also disabled to the point where I can’t walk without a cane and more than 50 metres ain’t happening. One workplace decided to do a ‘fitness’ thing of getting everyone to do X number of steps a day and to do this they sent out an email telling everyone that they had to use the staircases and not the lifts if they were going ‘only a few floors or one’.

      And yeah, ‘everyone needs to be fitter! Everyone can do this and benefit from it!’ was included.

      I stewed in my own wrath for several hours, formatting and rewriting an initially flame ridden email with my complaint of ableism down to something that was actually professional but still ‘hey, disabled folks exist thanks’.

      If someone else had sent them a ‘hey, you know disabled folks exist’ while not being affected by the campaign personally I’d be 100% for it.

      Basically, whatever you have the internal resources to push back on is fine, suggesting to others that they do it is also fine.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          Ah, yeah, part of the reason I left that company with no other job to go to was because they were ableist as all heck. And fatphobic with it.

          So the response was an unsatisfactory ‘we have received your email’ and that was it. Several hours writing down the loo..

    2. ferrina*

      You’re not obligated to point out ableism if you don’t have the spoons. You should always take care of yourself first, and if you’re up for educating, it’s a nice thing but certainly not a requirement. This is where allies should be useful- if your coworker is a decent ally, you can certainly tell her (once) that you’d appreciate her being more proactive and in the future here’s a couple actions she can take. Do this from a place of encouragement, but you really don’t need to do this more than once or become anyone’s go-to reference for inclusion education.

      Fitness programs can be a nice idea, but when there is pressure or ideas about “everyone can do this”, that’s ableist. Lots of conditions can’t be seen (much less diagnosed) from an outside perspective. If someone isn’t participating, the default should be to accept that they aren’t participating and not push back.

      1. Lady_Lessa*

        I agree that if a person doesn’t want to participate for whatever reason, that should be the end of it.

    3. Ozzie*

      I don’t think it’s on you to have to deal with ultimately, I’m going to start there.

      Unfortunately, ableism is rampant, even if it is unintentional. Do I think the set up for this was, like, malicious/intentionally excluding? No. Does that make it ok? Also, no. While their setting a “reasonable” goal seems well-intentioned, the response of “Well, it’s reasonable because we’re actually low-balling what is Recommended” is just a bad response. For one thing, “recommended” is a very general thing, and does not apply to all people. So, sure, low-balling is a nice thought, but doesn’t take into account the fact that it’s still not reasonable to apply this to everyone. Is it really that much harder to let people set their own goals? Or to, I don’t know, not harass people about not participating?

      If your coworker was willing to go to bat for you, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask her to. Especially because it is upsetting to you – not to mention wrong. There’s a good chance they just didn’t think of it, and would change this “requirement” without a second thought – and if they’re good people, be happy it was brought to their attention. If that’s NOT how it plays out… well, you’ve definitely learned something about a few coworkers then, unfortunately…

      1. Blomma*

        I think this is where I’m at. The coworkers I mentioned were not the organizers of the challenge. I think my coworkers and the organizers are mostly clueless that 5,000 steps is actually a lot for some of us. I definitely didn’t appreciate the judgy group message asking why the rest of us weren’t participating. I think my coworker mentioned the ‘lowballed’ step minimum to somehow make me feel better after I pointed out that the entire program was designed to be ableist…? Who knows, it was strange. I will consider reaching out to the organizers. Thank you for how you expressed all this!

    4. matcha123*

      It sounds like they understand your reasons for not participating. It also sounds like they want to make fitness a thing at your company.
      I feel like if you aren’t being punished, and it’s a voluntary activity, then that’s that.

      With that said, I don’t think that everyone needs to participate in every activity, but you could suggest that they rotate different kinds of activities so that people who can’t do active ones can participate in others.

      I don’t have an illness that keeps me from walking, but I do sometimes have a week or two where I overdo it and have terrible pain with each step I take. Normally I can do 12k steps a day, but when my leg is in pain even 2k is hard. So, some variation in group activities between active and others would probably go over well.
      My 2c.

    5. Sunny*

      I think it’s reasonable to be annoyed by it. I think your coworker really didn’t think about how illnesses (especially invisible ones) would make this difficult.

      As for are you obligated to bring it up? That’s really up to you. If you want to spend energy fighting it you can but if you don’t really care, you could just continue to say “I’m not going to be doing it as I am not able to / don’t want to”

      1. Sunny*

        Also I say “especially invisible ones” because I think a lot of people who run these kind of programs think about what they are capable of doing and that anyone without an obvious limitation (wheelchair, cane, crutch) is totally capable of doing what they can. And obviously that’s not true! I’ve been pushed to do well meaning things like this before and it actually ended up worsening injuries and problems. So you are definitely right to be annoyed!!

    6. Belle of the Midwest*

      The 10,000 steps a day thing did not originate from health professionals. It was some kind of marketing campaign from a Japanese company selling a pedometer.

      1. Belle of the Midwest*

        Woops, hit the “send” button too soon. there might be studies out there indicating that 10,000 steps correlates with better health outcomes, but as we all know, correlation is not causation. So yeah, someone needs to push back on this. “Health challenges” should always be voluntary with no pressure to participate.

        1. Blomma*

          Fortunately there was no pressure from the organizers! Just one of my immediate coworkers, unfortunately.

    7. I was told there would be llamas*

      Not all activities are going to appeal to everyone for one reason or another. You can’t walk far, someone else might be a recovering alcoholic so they don’t do happy hours, someone else might not like spending money on secret santas…BUT the company should be clear these things are optional AND try to vary the activities to make sure the same people aren’t always excluded. And if they are optional, shouldn’t be questioning why someone isn’t participating. Are the organizers of this event always the organizers? If so, they may be open to suggestions…like, Hey, wouldn’t it be fun to do a team trivia contest or something like that.

    8. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I would definitely be annoyed, both with the challenge and moreso with your first coworker asking why everyone wasn’t participating. It’s none of her business!

    9. Pocket Mouse*

      It’s ableist, I’m annoyed right alongside with you, and you are not obligated to spend your spoons on this.

      If it helps: my partner successfully altered a similar ‘challenge’ at their workplace. Got X amount of walking amended to Y minutes of movement/physical activity. There are a plethora of other goals incorporated to make it a wellness challenge rather than a fitness challenge, and there is enough diversity in the items so that even if one is not feasible for a given person, they still have a shot at scoring high overall.

    10. Nightengale*

      Yes it’s ableist and yes non-disabled people can and should be pointing this out. Especially because most people in the room when these initiatives are created are non-disabled.

      I’ve been in a few settings where I might consider participating in a step tracker if it were just me, knowing that my numbers were going to be very low compared to others and not really caring. But it always has to be a team. I can’t predict how much walking I am going to be able to do in any given week. I don’t want to be in a situation where my disability affects others scores or where I would feel pressure (even just from myself) to push myself in an unsafe way to help a team.

      And that’s outside of the fact that I don’t think that health, diet, “fitness” etc belong in the workplace or are any of works business at all, as long I am able to fulfil essential job functions with or without reasonable accommodation.

  90. Alfalfa Alfredo*

    Has anyone been in a situation where the only opportunity for growth at your company is to move to another position that’s not really in your wheelhouse? Or what you’re not really interested in doing? What did you do and did you regret it? Was it the best thing that happened to you?

    For background, I’m a Junior LLama Travel Marketer. The Tourism Department isn’t growing, nor is anyone leaving, so I’m a Junior Marketer for as long as I’m here. I know, I know, but that’s how the org charge is for every department here. I can’t change that.

    But what I can change is to move to a Senior Llama Groomer Recruiter role. Same company, same llamas, but not really what I do. I could DO it, but it’s not what I think I’d like. But I think there’s a 20-25% bump in pay, which is exciting, as it the opportunity to move from a junior role to a more senior one.

    Yes, I know I could change companies, but that’s not what I want to do. I like the llamas.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I am currently in the position where I’m an IC and the only way for me to move up is to become a manager. And I don’t want to become a manager. So I’ve accepted that I’m not moving into a more senior role.

    2. Robin Ellacott*

      I was in this position and I changed not just companies but careers, so hat’s nto super helpful to you.

      Is there a way to get extra adjacent qualifications that would be useful as some kind of specialist Llama Travel Marketer / Promoter or something? In other words, add to your existing position?

      If not, I can’t see how to progress, sorry. But if “growth” mostly means a salary increase, perhaps there is room to advocate for that due to years of relevant experience that would be hard to replace.

  91. 15 years later*

    So let me preface this question by saying this is a situation that happened a long time ago, so it’s not something I’m looking to actively remedy now, but the comments in this morning’s “5 questions” post made me think about it, and I’m wondering if I may have had options that I didn’t realize.

    About 15 years ago, I was working at a small nonprofit (3 full time staff, basically). It was my first job after college, and after about a year and a half I was let go–I was told they were looking to take my role in a different direction, but I later found out that they’d reposted my exact job description online. I was given basically no severence pay, other than that they continued to cover my health insurance for an extra 2 months. (This sounds generous, but my insurance cost them $200 a month) So I filed for unemployment, and as I remember, I was originally approved for benefits, but my payment was $0. When I appealed, assuming that was an error, I was notified that the reason for the $0 payments is because the organization was exempt from paying unemployment taxes.

    At the time that seemed legitimate, albeit really unfair, and I never pursued it further. But it’s always kind of stuck in my craw. Does anyone who’s more familiar with the laws and regulations around unemployment know if I would have had some additional avenue to pursue and receive unemployment benefits, or are employees at small non-profits really just out of luck in this scenario?

    (Incidentally, this organization categorized me as a contractor for the first few months I worked for them, and explicitly said that they did that to avoid paying taxes, so I would not be surprised to learn that their accounting was not on the up and up.)

    1. Lifelong student*

      They may have been exempt from FUTA- which is the federal unemployment tax, but are generally not exempt from state unemployment responsibility either by paying tax or by being responsible to reimburse the state. You should check the relevant state law.

    2. Intern Wrangler*

      I do not know of any exemption for nonprofits to avoid unemployment insurance. I wonder if it was the improper classification — that they contested unemployment saying that you were not an regular employee.

    3. OyHiOh*

      It’s possible that the state you’re in has/had exemptions for organizations of certain size or constitution (which flavor of 501 nonprofit this was could make a difference) but seems very unlikely to me. My little quasi government nonprofit has under 10 employees and believe me, we pay into the state unemployment program. Our state is very diligent about making sure that we do!

  92. user525u2u590*

    I’m on a project and have a defined role. A colleague who has been with the company for 15+ years (I’ve been there for around 6 months) has been regularly doing what I’m assigned to do: communicating the project results and aligning with stakeholders on a specific topic presenting himself as the person responsible.

    I’ve asked him not to many times. I’ve also asked the stakeholders to treat my communication as the official one, not my colleague’s. It works a bit sometimes, then it doesn’t. And the discussion has to be conducted again and again.

    Above all, I’ve asked my boss to clarify and communicate the responsibilities. My previous boss jumped in a lot to explain to the colleague and me the role division and intervened in front of the stakeholders when needed.

    Then I got a new boss, who doesn’t want to take a stance. I’m getting criticized a lot by different people, even in my boss’s presence. People claim that I’m not doing my job, that the communication isn’t consistent, alignments aren’t met. Mine are. But I’m not responsible for what a colleague is doing.

    I’ve asked my bosses to clarify the role division explaining that if I’m not to be responsible that’s completely fine, but let’s clarify and communicate the responsibilities. They don’t want to do that.

    We’ve had a discussion and escalations about that almost every week for months. I feel that my boss doesn’t want to lose popularity points with the colleague (who knows a lot of people in the company) by explaining the role division. What’s the way to do here? I’m at a point when I fear starting my work every morning because I know I will be attacked for what doesn’t depend on me.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Did the colleague do the communications before you were hired? Or is he just the company “I know people” guy?

      I’d try addressing it with colleague directly, one more time. “Fred, it’s my responsibility to be the communications point person, so there’s one central POC with the most current information for everyone. When you jump in, sometimes you’ve relayed out-of-date stats which is confusing. Can we agree that only I present status? If you have updated info on something, please pass it to me. I welcome inputs from everyone.”

    2. WellRed*

      If your boss doesn’t have your back I don’t see how this is fixable. You’re stressed out by this, understandably, and your reputation is taking an unfair hit.

  93. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

    Yesterday I lost my Saturday only temp job as a receptionist. I have had it since June; I had no idea it was going away. I was replaced with a permanent employee. It really hit me hard, not just the loss of the extra money, but also being treated, again, like a non person. I’m pretty sure I know what led to this; I was unable to make notes in the Oracle database as I had been doing, because I kept getting error messages that didn’t show up during the week.

    I showed this to the Saturday salesman, who told me not to worry about it, but I knew it was going to bite me. And it did. I tried to explain to the mgr why I wasn’t making notes but I could tell he didn’t believe me. I even told him how much I needed that job, clearly it didn’t matter. I just really hate people, y’all. Now I have to try to find a new part time job on my off hours. This one was perfect. I feel so kicked in the head. Again.

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      I am so sorry for you, I wish that I could change things for the better.

      I’m cynical, I wonder if they cut you off from Oracle because they were going to let you go.

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

        Possibly, but after a few weeks I regained the ability to make notes. I’m not a programmer but I think maybe Oracle was using the weekends to fix errors, maintenance items. I don’t know why he just refused to believe me. I tried to hard to make them happy. Just being tossed out like that, a piece of trash, is so unsettling and sad.

  94. Ejane*

    So I work at a company with management that is working on improving their nonsense and, specifically, HR that is a walking ADA violation. So not a lot of faith in her.
    Yesterday, one of my coworkers wrote something racially insensitive in teams. When someone pushed back, indicating that they were part of the group that he had been insensitive about, he double down, and what ensued was the most willfully ignorant erasure of a white passing minority experience that I have ever witnessed.

    Here’s the problem. I am not HR, and I am not either of these employees supervisors, but I am in a weird quasi-team lead position. I spoke up when this is all happening to tell the person who is speaking to stop, but now that the dust has settled I still feel sick thinking about it. My immediate manager is also a minority and I expect will handle this as best you can without being HR. My question is this: what in the hell do I say to the person to was the subject of this racism, and how do I behave to the person who said it going forward? Remaining professional is a given, but this person is also part of my social circle, and while it’s not appropriate to tattle on them in anyway, I can’t help but feel like I’m condoning it by not bringing it up to friends whom I would normally vent to when something like this happened.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      It may be useful to have a “temperature check” with the offended colleague. “Hey, I’ve been thinking about what happened in that Teams chat the other day. I’m still fairly unsettled by it and I’m wondering how you’d feel about me checking in with the manager about it.” Basically, laying out your interest in following through as a team-lead/ally on making sure it doesn’t happen again, and giving that person a chance to have a voice as well. WITHOUT being performative and without making the offended party have to Speak For My Minority or be identified specifically in the complaint.

      As for the offensive coworker. I’d feel free to be as cold and distant as I could be while maintaining my ability to do my job. And if I could manage to avoid venting to our mutual friends, I would, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if something like “X got on my last nerve the other day in a Teams chat and I’m not ok with it” slipped out.

      1. Ejane*

        The temperature check is an amazing idea and absolutely what I’ll do on Monday. Thank you! (Also thank you for catching on and explicitly referring to what I was trying to get at re:performative allyship)

  95. Suggestions for career changes?*

    Ok, hive mind, your suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    I’ve been in public education for 15+ years, teaching ELAR in intermediate and high school, serving as an academic coach to teachers, and working as a mentor to first year teachers. I have two BAs and an MA in English literature, and I am certified to teach any subject in grades 4-8, high school ELAR, and ESL to all grades, and I am certified as a K-12 principal.

    I adore the children. I adore teaching. The pay is … not exactly what I need now that my partner has been out of work for over 2 years due to the pandemic.

    What else could I do? Please don’t say go into administration- admin jobs usually go to the best networkers (and, honestly, kiss a**es), and since I’m neither one of those things, I know not to keep wasting my time trying for those positions. Same goes for academic coaching at the district level (campus level coaches make the same as teachers). I can’t currently afford another degree or any certification programs. (Although my retired parents say they have always told me they would pay for ALL of my secondary education, do they’re happy to pay for me to go for my doctorate – which I mention just because it makes me laugh. It’s good to be supported, but I’m not sure my parents have realized I’m in my 40s yet!)

    And since I’ve been in an education bubble for almost 20 years now, I’m not any good at thinking of things that I could transfer my skills to! Can y’all? I know there’s a lot of constraints, since my salary can’t dip in order to take a junior position to break into a new field. My mind is a blank ….

    1. Kes*

      I don’t know a ton about this, but a couple thoughts:
      – my understanding is teaching pay is pretty variable by location – is moving to somewhere that pays better an option?
      – I think in similar questions people have mentioned corporate training as something adjacent

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Look for opportunities to work in education policy at all levels of government. USAJobs at the federal level, but your State likely has a bureaucracy for this as well.

  96. Cj*

    Alison – I don’t know if you’ll see this here or not, but you asked for feedback on the new rule about only asking for advice in this thread.

    I agree that the thread gets really long, and if you don’t post your question within the first two or three hours after the thread opens, you might not get any advice because the thread is just too long for people to get to your question.

    I also don’t like the personal, blog type posts, which you put a stop to a while back.

    However, I do like people stories about what happened at work. Sometimes something will even come up in a comment on one of your posts during the week, and people will ask for the full story to be posted on Fridays open thread.

    Would it be possible to have two separate threads on Friday, one for asking for advice, and the other to tell bizarre stories that happened at work? You can’t even open the threads at the same time, and people could choose which they wanted to read. Sometimes I’m in the mood for the weird stories, and would actually choose to read that thread specifically.

    3. Sunny*

      That could be great! I mainly just want the questions (no offence to those with stories) so I would love this.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hmmm, I kind of like this too. I posted above that I was concerned about adding yet another post that isn’t quite the core mission of the site, but doing them both at once feels like less of that than spreading them out over separate days would.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Maybe one thread a month for funny/weird stories (like the themed ones you occasionally do), and a regular thread weekly thread for questions and answers.

        I’m personally not a fan of the weekly update blog-style posts, as I find they tend to take over comment sections and make them less welcoming to new people (fostering an in-crowd atmosphere), and make it hard to actually ask questions and have them answered.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah, but some people like them, and having separate threads for them makes them easy to avoid.

  97. PeachCube*

    I had a final interview this past Monday. Hiring manager said I would hear back a few days after. I’m really hoping they get back to me today. If I don’t hear back, is it appropriate to follow up Monday morning?

  98. wondermint*

    I wanted to reply to Loulou’s comment but the thread has gotten to long I don’t think the website lets me.

    As stated in my original post, my first concern is that the misspelling causes confusion with our growing team – a “Joaquin/Wakeen situation” for legacy readers of AAM who remember that letter. I referenced that situation because it’s closely related; Coworker spells my name incorrectly, including the first few letters.

    My comment of “a name is personal” is because this blog has repeatedly suggested that names are personal and should not be changed. Does that perfectly apply to me? No, but it felt like an unbiased take so I brought it up. I don’t care that he says it wrong. But given it gets completely butchered in spelling, and prime communication is via written word, AND it’s on the screen to reference, I do think it’s reasonable to want it to be spelled correctly.

    What *is* personal to me is that I am unwilling to take on a nickname to resolve this. I am considering initials, but a nickname just isn’t me.

    I’m going to pause replying – some people are suggesting I’m blowing this out of proportion and to that I say, I’ve thought about this enough and it’s time to get back to work!

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I think you’re on the right track. I haven’t read through all of the comments upthread, but I’d say that you should get to use the name that you prefer, and it’s probably best that everyone in the office uses the same version.

      So the conversation with the coworker is “hi friend, I want to let you know that this is my correct spelling, and it’s best for everyone that you stay consistent with it because otherwise it gets confusing in all of our written communication.” Then just keep up the gentle reminders until it’s muscle memory when they type.

  99. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    What would you disclose, if anything, to someone who says they have a phobia of people with severe mental illness and you actually have one?

    Say nothing and hope to whatever that it never comes out because the person will be terrified and feel unsafe at work?

    Or disclose that you have one or a nebulous ‘some people here do’ and let the person make up their mind regarding if they can work in such an environment?

    (I’m sorry I can’t be more specific, I’m trying to keep identifying info out of this)

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m sorry I just disassociated so hard I left my body, someone said WHAT to you?

      I’d say something like “that’s really harmful to say, you never know what someone else is dealing with. there are probably plenty of people here who either have a severe mental illness themselves or someone close to them does”.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Well that’s not entirely true I’d probably say something sh*ttier but that’s not actually good advice.

      3. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        It’s a bit more complex than just saying it to me (which probably would have got my one raised eyebrow and cold stare responses) but think of it like a request for accommodations for a phobia coming from someone else with the authority to make those accommodations.

        I’m probably not explaining this well too, apologies. My mental health is..not great right now.

        1. Ozzie*

          I just don’t understand how one can make a reasonable accommodation for such a phobia, without people having to like, disclose protected information… I don’t really envy HR here. And that’s really, really giving them the benefit of the doubt.

          I personally wouldn’t disclose anything personal to this person. They are under no entitlement to know.

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            In my opinion you cannot. But I’m sure other schools of thought exist. I’m also sure many of those schools of thought are very gross.

            1. Ozzie*

              Yeahhh I would tend to agree. Unless it is a like, mostly-works-alone job that can be conducted from home. But ANY collaboration gets into sketchy territory in my mind.

        2. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Hugs if you would like them.

          As an HR professional I would be very clear that I would not approve any accommodations that would supersede other people’s rights to privacy or being treated as a human being.

          But I’m assuming you’re asking for the POV of someone outside that dynamic. It depends a little bit on the person making the accommodations. Would this disclosure be used against you in any way? Definitely don’t do that. I also wouldn’t put yourself in the warpath of someone out of touch with reality enough to name this as a phobia.

          The nebulous option is what’s I’m leaning towards if you feel you really need to say something. But also you don’t have to put yourself in the middle of it at all unless it’s eating away at you. Please prioritize your own safety above everything else.

      4. Burnt Eggs*

        I would just say that ‘you know, many people have mental illnesses of varying degrees and I can assure you that anyone who interacts at stores, resturaunts, work, or social events has come across people with mental illness. ‘ then gently suggest they find a way to resolve it.

    2. Banana*

      I think it depends on your relationship with the person and how well they demonstrate an ability to change their minds based on new information. Maybe also on how much their fear affects their ability to do their work.

      I probably wouldn’t disclose my own mental illness, but if I wanted to address it, I’d consider using examples from history or media to illustrate how people with mental illnesses can live and contribute to the world safely. If their work involves working with vulnerable people or is likely to intersect with mentally I’ll people, I’d consider raising her fears with her boss to make sure she’s not in a position to do any harm because of her fear.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      While I don’t have any answers for you. I had a co-worker who got off his medications for schizophrenia, and he was scary especially to one or two of the other women. He was let go after the company jumped through the right hoops. I wonder if your co-worker experienced something similar, and their concerns valid.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        You can’t ask for an accommodation not to work with men because you had a traumatic experience with a man. This isn’t a valid concern, it’s a harmful generalization and something the employee needs to work out personally with a therapist, not put on their coworkers.

      2. Quandong*

        I’m sorry about your experience with previous coworker.

        I really need to say that you could have made this point without naming the coworker’s mental illness. There’s immense stigma surrounding schizophrenia, and huge discrimination against people living with it.

        Especially in threads like this please take greater care in future.

        You don’t know if Keymaster is dealing with exactly this kind of stigma in their life and in their workplace. They already stated that their mental health is not great right now after this…what looks like ableist and harmful business from their coworker (I won’t call it competing access needs).

      3. pancakes*

        No, it isn’t valid to treat people as ambassadors for their demographic when it comes to things like gender, ethnicity, diagnosis, etc. The World Health Organization says “Schizophrenia affects approximately 24 million people or 1 in 300 people (0.32%) worldwide,” so you’ve almost certainly encountered other people with the same condition. If you think having worked with this one guy is a reliable guide to what it would be like to work with any one of those 24 million people you’re not being realistic about how little you know about them from the simple fact that they fit in this category.

      4. Dark Macadamia*

        That’s not a phobia though? And not even about schizophrenia but just one individual’s behavior. It doesn’t sound like he got fired for schizophrenia or as an accommodation for anyone’s phobia of mental illness in general so I’m not sure how it’s relevant here.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      Giving probably more than the benefit of the doubt — this is a competing access issue, and HR should figure it out. But they absolutely need to be able to do that without disclosing anyone’s protected health information.

      Less generously, this person sounds disabled-phobic the way homophobia isn’t actually a fear of gay people. Don’t disclose; you don’t owe them anything.

      Also, not to be a smartass, but wouldn’t a severe phobia count as severe mental illness?

      In some ways this reminds me of the AITA where the poster was diabetic, needed to check his blood sugar at work with lancets, and had a coworker who had a phobia of blood/needles. They tried having the coworker call the OP before coming over to the cubicle, to make sure OP wasn’t checking his blood sugar around Coworker, but eventually that got to be too much for Coworker because he still had to call and talk about the phobia thing every time. I think Coworker ended up working from home.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        “Also, not to be a smartass, but wouldn’t a severe phobia count as severe mental illness?”

        I also had this thought.

    5. No Tribble At All*

      Chaotic evil answer: “looks like it’s time for exposure therapy, buddy!”

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        My first, unhelpful thought: say “booga booga booga” and run toward them waving your arms like a Scooby Doo monster. The mental illness was your coworker all along!

        The real answer, Keymaster, is that you don’t have to disclose anything, and you’re very kind to frame this as a real issue the person may actually suffer from and not that they’re just being a jerk.

    6. Kes*

      I wouldn’t say you do since that’s really not their business but assuming they’re either in the hiring process or making a request for accommodations, I would make it clear at the very least that it’s not feasible to ensure they don’t have to work with people who have one

      2. Kay*

        I can’t see any reasonable accommodation being possible. I am hoping from afar someone delivers that line to this person in a stern voice accompanied by a plausibly deniable death stare.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      “What a coincidence! I have a phobia of people with chronic physical illness! Ha, not really. Can you imagine how ridiculous that would be? To claim to have a phobia of people just because of their illness?”

      No, probably not.

    8. Mockingjay*

      I wouldn’t disclose anything. If this person is requesting accommodation for this phobia, it should be addressed without impacting other employees. Because the accommodation CANNOT be revealing your and your coworkers’ medical information so this person can avoid you. I know very little about the accommodation process and IANAL, but remote work for this person sounds like an excellent solution all round. Maybe someone will think of this.

      I’m sorry you had to hear this.

    9. Quandong*

      Keymaster, I’m sorry you’re in this position.

      I emphatically would NOT disclose my illness. If I felt able, I would try to make a general statement like ‘based on statistics there will be people here with various illnesses, they don’t need to disclose, think about how it might affect them to hear you say that.’

      Honestly people are careless and thoughtless and also sometimes malicious and cruel when it comes to mental illness. I am side-eyeing this person at your workplace Very Hard.

      I hope you have some chances to do nice things for yourself this weekend.

    10. Scotlibrarian*

      I think it comes down to a) spoons, and b) how much political capital you have. Only you know a and b. However, I think your worry that the person might find out and be terrified is not your problem – if they are too ignorant to find out enough about that mental illness to not be afraid, then that’s their problem, not yours. That’s like me saying I have a phobia about men – that’s my problem, not any hypothetical men’s problem. I think that someone who says they have a phobia about a particular mental illness will have a very stereotypeical view of people with that mi. Knowing you, then finding out you have it, will probably make them think, oh, Keymaster isn’t like those other people with mi. I think that this happened with people of colour / LGBTQ folk in the past – people fear what they don’t know, but once they know the person,the ‘issue’becomes less scary

      I’m not in the same situation, but an analogous one: I’m autistic, diagnosed last year aged 49, I have lots of political capital at work, I’m relatively senior, outgoing, great communicator, good at my job, been here for years. I decided to tell people at work, as autism has such negative stereotypes (Uk employment rates for autistic people are the lowest for any single disability). I decided to use my position to try and change that stereotype. I knew it might take extra spoons, but I’ve 2 autistic kids,so have excellent reasons to use my spoons on this. I’ve decided that if people have a problem, then that’s their problem, not mine, and that this might be my chance to help people learn.

    11. the cat's ass*

      Holy moly. I’m so sorry. Perhaps this person who spoke to you could work remotely and be kept away from everyone else, ever, with an attitude like that? Because it’s weird and ableist AF.

  100. Banana*

    What is the most ridiculous thing that you’ve ever experienced in an exit interview?

    My husband recently quit his job without a new one lined up and left his former employer in a serious bind. He gave a little over two week’s notice and politely declined to extend his end date longer, and gave them feedback on why he was leaving (not enough pay, no pay raises for his staff in 3 years, no effort by the company to avoid turnover despite him offering suggestions, and constant poor communication from his boss.)

    He mentioned it was a difficult decision and that he’d reached it after talking it over with me and looking at our family finances and deciding we could afford for him to be unemployed while job hunting for a little while. His grandboss (who he has never spoken to before this) ……asked if she could have my phone number, to see if she could talk me into talking him out of leaving. She did not, interestingly, offer to increase his pay, even though the postings for other staff members who have quit recently are 30+% higher than what the people who left are making.

    He didn’t give her my number, of course. I’m not sure how she thought that conversation was going to go, but she would not have enjoyed it, lol.

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      The boss from hell after I resigned from the job with no other to go to asked in the exit interview if I was going to use the time unemployed to ‘work on improving your health like we talked about in your disciplinary’

      Took everything I had not to give a very, very rude answer.

      (He’d put me on a PIP for the amount of times I had off due to medical problems and told me if I lost weight so I wasn’t obese anymore then I wouldn’t need so much time off. Yes I actually got ‘lose weight’ on a performance improvement plan. 10+ years later and I’m still angry at him)

    2. ArtK*

      The inverse of something we see here occasionally: The non-employee spouse wanting to call work about something!

    3. Kes*

      Wow that’s ridiculous. And pretty insulting, to flat out ask him for your number in order to try and go around him to override his decision. Glad to hear he’s out of there and good luck to him in the search
      The one thing that’s interesting is that I feel like a lot of the similar stories we see here are more of the ‘well what does your husband think’ sexist reactions, but in this case your husband is a man and she just generally wanted a way to get around his decision and thought going to the spouse might work

    5. Anonymath*

      At my recent exit interview, the new HR director started apologizing to me for asking each of the 12ish pre-written questions once they realized what had been going on in my department/division that caused me to want to leave. Like, literally apologizing while asking each question.

      Then they started asking me if the issues I was bringing up were written down in my response document. Why, yes, yes they were. I gave brief but professional responses for each question, making sure to mention several ongoing problems that I knew would get the attention of HR.

  101. Cookies For Breakfast*

    What does everyone think of announcing new jobs on Linkedin?

    There are loads of posts appearing on my feed these days, along the lines of “After X years at Company A, I’m starting my new adventure at Company B”. Most tag the companies too. I wonder whether it makes sense to do one when I start my new job in a few weeks. I’m moving to a completely different industry, if that matters, and I’m not in a sales / commercial role.

    I’m not super active on Linkedin, and perhaps making more of an effort to post professional updates going forward wouldn’t hurt. Also, I was at the job I just left for many years, and it does feel like the end of an era.

    On the other hand…I’m not super active on Linkedin, in the same way I hardly ever post on other social media, because I’m a fairly private person. Also, tagging my new workplace may backfire if the role doesn’t work out in the first few months (fingers crossed it doesn’t!).

    What’s everyone else’s experience?

    1. Elle Woods*

      I’ve seen an uptick in these kinds of posts too. I like them and see them as the professional equivalent of social media posts that announce a life event (house, marriage, baby, pet, etc.). It’s a nice way to catch up with professional connections in an easy way.

    2. ecnaseener*

      The advice I’ve generally seen is to save that post for a few weeks or even months after you start – in case it doesn’t work out as you say, but I guess also so you can have something to say if anyone asks how it’s going.

      I don’t do it, because like you I feel weird making announcements on social media. But if you feel like it might be worth it to touch base with your network, go ahead – it’s such a common post to make, no one’s going to think anything negative about it.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I usually just share the update that I added a new job to my profile I don’t do a whole announcement

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Judging from the accompanying images, I think some of the newly joined companies prompt the new employee to post along with the company-promoting image.

      I scroll LinkedIn every day or so b/c the connections I have tend to post work-relevant things that make it worthwhile. I almost never post anything myself, including when I changed jobs last fall, but that was for personal reasons and not because I don’t like job change posts. As an aside, LI didn’t exist when I started that previous job!

      Overall I like it when other people do those even if the wording is sometimes over the top (“honored and humbled to join XCorp!”). A straightforward message like “I enjoyed my time at ACorp, and am looking forward to joining BCorp next month” is just fine.

    5. Kes*

      Yeah personally I prefer to wait a bit to be more comfortable in the new position and then just update the position on LinkedIn and let everyone see the update in the feed. But I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with announcing it for people who want to.

  102. Me--Blargh!*

    I have a question about LinkedIn I’m hoping someone can help me with, please.

    A week or so ago, a recruiter located in my target state messaged me about a job. We talked on the phone, and it turned out the job was actually where I am now and, unfortunately, focused on a thing at which I’m grossly inept. She said recruiters typically search by location and that’s how she found me for the job. She suggested I put my target area higher up in my profile summary.

    I put “Aspiring [city dweller]” in my headline, and at the top of my About section, I wrote “NOTE TO RECRUITERS: Currently, I live near CurrentCity—I’m 100% free to relocate for the right full-time, direct hire role. The [target] area is my primary focus, though I wouldn’t rule out [previous target area I’ve kind of given up on].

    The thing is, if they’re searching by the profile location stamp, they’re still only going to find me in CurrentCity. I took my location off so it only says “United States,” but I feel like they won’t find me at all now. But if I put CurrentCity, I’ll only get messages for jobs here. LinkedIn will not let you write anything in that field—it requires a zip code. *eyeroll*

    Anyone with any experience with recruiting or LinkedIn, what do you think? Thank you in advance.

    1. ArtK*

      Interesting. I’m getting messages from recruiters for jobs all over the place. I don’t recall if I did anything special when I turned on the “I’m looking” flag that might account for that. That said, many (most?) recruiters on LI aren’t very good at looking at profiles. They set up some kind of search and then spam people. The number of “I looked at your profile and think you would be a good fit” messages where I lack the major qualifications for the job is annoyingly high.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I get these too; it’s very annoying. And if the job sounds decent and you reply, it’s *crickets*

        Also, LinkedIn needs to work on its algorithm. I see lots of jobs tagged “Your profile fits this position” but when I look at them, the requirements are miles away from anything I’ve ever done. I think they have it set too broadly. As in, if your profile contains the word assistant, and so does the job post, you get notifications for assistant principal. That’s not even close.

    2. ecnaseener*

      You can put your target city in the location field, can’t you? And in the about section, “looking to relocate to [target] area.” Unless you have contacts in your current city who you don’t want to forget you’re still there.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        The area has a ton of zip codes, so I wouldn’t know which one to pick. Re contacts here, I don’t have any, so that isn’t an issue.

        It kind of feels like I’m being disingenuous to say I’m already there when I’m really 1200 miles away. And I can’t relocate until I’m actually hired because I need employment verification to find housing.

        1. ecnaseener*

          I really don’t think it’s disingenuous. You’re not registering to vote, you’re labeling yourself as available for jobs in that city. Recruiters are looking for candidates available to work in that city, they do not care where you currently physically are. Pick any zip code, it does not matter. And again, you clarify in your bio that you’re relocating to that city, so if any recruiter does care where you physically are, they can see that.

          1. Me--Blargh!*

            Hmm.
            Well, it’s late in the day, so I doubt anyone will see it. But I’ll try it and see what happens. I’ll just pick something downtown.

            Maybe I need to be a little bolder about this and step outside my box.

    3. urguncle*

      I honestly just respond upfront to recruiters if they’re sending me stuff that I’m not interested in: non-remote work, a field I no longer work in, a city I am not near or in a language I do not speak.
      “Hello! Thank you for reaching out. Just to be upfront, I am currently not looking for roles in [CurrentCity]; however, I’m more than happy to talk about remote work or any roles that you may have available in [TargetCity].” Sometimes they come back with stuff, especially if this is a close city. Otherwise, feel free to send them on their way.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I do that too, but I want to be more visible to recruiters filling positions where I actually want to work.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Something about “aspiring” doesn’t sit well with me, though I can’t put my finger on it. If it were me, I’d phrase it more along the lines of “seeking to relocate to [city].”

      The note to recruiters also seems a little wordy for LinkedIn purposes. How about simply: “Currently in [location], seeking to relocate to [City1] or [City2]. Full-time preferred.” (I don’t think you really need to specify full-time. I think you would need to specify if you were looking for non-full-time, instead.) Maybe even put in an adverb about when/how you’d like to relocate: immediately, urgently, whatever, to emphasize that you are strongly motivated to move, not just that you’re “free” or available to move.

      1. pancakes*

        Yeah. I think “aspiring” in this context sounds too uncertain, like you aren’t sure whether you’ll actually move or not. Maybe that’s true, but I don’t think there’s any advantage in communicating that.

      2. Me--Blargh!*

        Ah, okay. I took that out of the header and put this at the top of the About section:

        NOTE TO RECRUITERS: — Currently near [City1]; looking to relocate immediately to the greater [City2] area.

        Thank you for the suggestion.

  103. Empress Ki*

    Am I ungrateful ?
    I have received my “Covid-19 Local Hero Model” with my name engraved from my employer, as I was one of the front line essential workers during lockdowns. If they want to say thank you, give us some money instead !
    By contrast, my other employer (I have 2 part-time jobs) gave us our birthdays off and a bonus as a thank you for the hard work. So much more appreciated and useful !

    1. Ozzie*

      Nah that’s hollow thanks. Engraving is expensive, why not invest that money into the employees instead?

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I would be very frustrated to receive that. It feels very tone deaf and inconsiderate of what people who have been working front line during the pandemic both need and want.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      Seriously, they couldn’t print the “title” and your name on a free certificate template and give you the cash equivalent of the engraved medal?

    6. Katiekins*

      Wait, is it a medal or a model? When I read ““Covid-19 Local Hero Model,” I actually thought they made an action figure of you. (Not that money still wouldn’t be better.)

    8. SnappinTerrapin*

      I got a certificate of appreciation from a client. Employer didn’t do that much.

  104. Silvercat*

    Advice needed about coming out as non-binary at work.

    I use they/them pronouns and really dislike the ones everyone assumes. But I’m working in a city that runs at least somewhat conservative. How can I tell if it’s safe? I’m a contractor – should I just go for it and if it goes badly tell the recruiting company to find something else?

    This is my first contract that isn’t just for a project and could turn into an actually career at a company. I really don’t want to spend years on end being misgendered, on top of the usual stress of working.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This is really tricky and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it. Are you okay losing the contract if it turns out this place isn’t safe? If so I’d tell them. If not, I would encourage you to prioritize your safety and your job and not tell them until you can get a reasonable alternative lined up.

      1. Silvercat*

        The biggest pro of this job is that it’s about as close as I can expect to find one, so I don’t have to rent a room to avoid a multi-hour commute (I’m in SoCal). This company actually hires on contractors and keeps employees for decades, which is rare in my experience.

        I feel like I might just be extra sensitive because of being home so long.

    2. I.*

      If you’re in a place where introducing yourself with your pronouns isn’t common practice, can you put them in your email signature? Safe people will pick up on it and use them and it might get you less hostility from u safe ones. Doesn’t solve the misgendering issue though. I’m sorry, this is really hard.

  105. Emmers*

    Helpppp. My manager announced in a large department meeting Monday that she ‘would be in the office a little less’ because surprise she’s moving six states and 2 time zones away for two years while her partner is on contract. We work in education, and while we have flexed to online work the past two years, 90% of what we normally do and have already started moving back to is in person events on campus. She’s already a little MIA for my liking because she’s an hour away from our campus as it is and I truly don’t know what she does all day…but I’m also just miffed she didn’t tell our small team first and we all had to have a real time zoom video face reactions situation. One of my biggest issues is our departments relationship with faculty (rough and hands off until there is an issue) and I just cannot see how this is gonna help. But today I’ve heard though the grapevine that she’s upset that I wasn’t more celebratory about her announcement and wasn’t more supportive. I don’t know how to approach this and feel pretty set up and we have a 1:1 coming up soon.

    1. Arts Admin Pro*

      LOL what!? Your boss that doesn’t come to work and is moving 6 states away when you have an in-person type of job is upset that you weren’t supportive…? I am sorry that your boss is self centered and unreasonable. I have no advice that doesn’t include telling her that you found her announcement a surprise and felt slightly disrespected by the way it was shared. I just wanted to say that I think she’s being unreasonable.

    2. Ozzie*

      You… are not responsible for your boss’s feelings about your reaction to news that she sprung on you. That’s 100% on her not considering how her team would feel about her big news. Also a weird thing to be going through the grapevine.

      1. emmers*

        By grapevine I mean she told a person who she knew would relay that info back to me. I am not someone to coddle friends I like hanging out and spending emotional energy on with much less my manager. Makes me want to dig my heels in even more but I know that’s not the right instinct either. She told me yesterday that she wished our team was a little more curious and less judgmental about workplace changes and I didn’t put it together until today what she was getting at. I don’t really want to play this game…

        1. Ozzie*

          Yeah, that sort of passive-aggressive “communication” is not how you manage. It’s still definitely not your responsibility to manage her emotions. You didn’t do anything wrong here. Also, you can be dissatisfied with the decision, and she can still do the thing – it’s also not her job to manage your emotions. (nor should she feel like she needs to – that’s on her)

          Ultimately, she did a thing, and she is happy about it. You are not. You are both perfectly able to hold these opinions about the thing and not be wrong in feeling that way. But unfortunately, you don’t really have the power to do anything about it… Which sucks! You can fake it and not spend emotional and political capitol on it just to appease her, or not and just both be unhappy at one another. I don’t think either is the right or wrong choice here, but they do have distinctly different outcomes.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      If she brings it up in the 1:1, you could pivot to saying you have concerns about her being fully remote and asking how she sees this working to manage in-person events from two time zones away. If you can do it in a matter-of-fact tone, that is! I can’t think of wording that doesn’t sound confrontational, but I’d be really keen to know how this would affect my work. I’m a little surprised she got permission to do so if her role is supposed to be primarily in-person.

      FWIW my own manager moved several states away, which threw me off because originally we were in the same location, but our jobs will continue to be 95-100% remote indefinitely and she’s always been very responsive.

  106. Arts Admin Pro*

    My boss treats me like his AA even though I am not his AA. Even if I were, though, he is such a bad communicator that we constantly get into strange misunderstandings about this type of work. I am actively looking to leave, but in the meantime, I would like some advice!

    1) The Calendar. My boss expects me to maintain his calendar. This is not my understanding of what my role should be, but here we are. Aside from this, he has always been extremely unclear about what that means. At first, he gave me access and would tell me to “put things on his calendar”, which I started doing. However, he started missing appointments that he claimed I didn’t notify him about. I found this puzzling since they are on his calendar. However, I suggested that maybe I could send him an invite and he could accept it instead. Often, he will reply and copy me saying I’ll “find a time on his calendar”. Even for basic phone calls, I have to find open time, find the other party’s open availability, submit the invitation and wait for a reply before I can confirm it. It is so many extra steps for something that would be so much simpler if he just looked at his calendar when the request came in. I’ve suggested he set up a Calenly, but he refuses to commit time to doing it. Any other advice? Scheduling these things is such a chore and I’d like to minimize the time I spend doing it.

    2) The Emails. I send my boss emails that he doesn’t read. If he is reading them, he doesn’t retain the information. He is constantly asking me information that is laid out very clearly in an email – sometimes from just a day before. I tell him, “I emailed that to you, but…” and just tell him the information in the moment. He often comes back to point out he didn’t receive that email I mentioned, so I then forward him the email. There is never any acknowledgment that the forwarded email was received. This was most stressful over this past month when our dept conducted over 100 interviews that I manually and painstakingly documented down to the very tiny details, all of which was communicated via email and put into our shared files. I am sure he never once read any of it. My predecessor did not leave me any notes on this annual interview process, so I wanted to have it well documented for future reference anyway, but it kills me I did TONS of work that was just never acknowledged. That part hurt my ego, but what actually is the most frustrating is that he does not reply to any emails about departmental management, which he is supposedly in charge of. I do ALL of this for him, it is all communicated via email from others in our org, and it is RARELY acknowledged! Budgeting, logistics, etc… he has no clue what is going on. Again, I am not this man’s AA, but even if I were, this would be an inappropriate level of responsibility. Whenever anything goes poorly, I am always asked why I let things happen. I got so tired of this, that I have begun test messaging my boss to ask for important information. I hate this because I feel it is an exploitation of my personal tech equipment (it’s my cell phone and my plan) and because it has caused work to spill into all hours of the evening and weekend. However, it has helped there to be more communication, so for that I am grateful. I don’t really know what to do besides ask my boss to please read his email (which I have done to no avail already). Any suggestions on what to try next?

    3) The Office Hours. I asked in my interview what the office hours would be. After the first two weeks of work, they changed dramatically – I was expected to be in the office 90 minutes earlier than originally stated with absolutely no discussion. As a result, I maintained my end time for several months, thus working 9.5 hour days. When I asked to talk about my schedule, I was told we would talk about it, but then we never did. I started leaving about 8 hours because I just could not take it anymore. I asked again if we might discuss my hours because the start time is way too early – to the point I never would have even interviewed for the job if it had been posted this way. I cannot seem to get him to agree to discuss this. At the same time, I was told that my boss would be in the office certain hours that he has never once kept in any way whatsoever. I am often in the office alone and there isn’t any indication whether or not my boss will be coming in to work that day. Because he doesn’t read or respond to emails, face time is valuable. Things are slowed down significantly because he does not have a consistent office schedule, not to mention the obvious double standard that is going on here. I have to be in the office but he does not. Totally unfair. If you’ve had this problem before, how have you addressed it?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      What would it take you to quit? Draw that line in the sand. Especially as it may turn out its behind where you already are. Do you have the savings to go ahead and quit now and then recover from this job while you job hunt??

      What functions do you do that are not being his admin? Did you save the job description when you applied for this job? Is this job creep (role expanded from similar work) or is this totally different job? If it’s job creep you have to be a lot more gentle about pushing back. If it’s not anywhere near your job role then I think you can be more aggressive.

      Do you have a boss above him or a HR you can go to?

      What happens if you don’t drop everything to schedule his meetings? or if you replied all “I’m free these 3 specific time slots do any of those work for everyone else?” ie drop the ball. Who did this extra work before you joined?

      1. Arts Admin Pro*

        I should have probably quit a long time ago! I think I struggled awhile with wanting to be a team player and thinking I’d adjust (I was out of work for 6 months prior due to COVID related job loss). I have gotten into grad school in my field, so there is definitely an end date in sight. I can’t do this job and go to grad school. In that way, I think the line has obviously already been crossed and I already have decided to quit. I think the other things holding me back is money. Knowing I’m going to school in the fall, I don’t want to lose my savings right now.

        I am currently looking for part time professional work in my field that will allow me some income while I’m in grad school for the next two years. I am in an interview process for such a position with a local agency that I’ve applied to at least 4 times over the past few years (I would really like to work there!), but if that doesn’t pan out, it’s back to the drawing board! I had interviewed for another similar role at yet another organization I have really envisioned working at – among the two orgs, they are my top potential employers – that went really well. But, due to funding, they decided not to hire the position. If it comes available again, I would get first right of refusal. Maybe that will happen.

        In some ways, my issues do stem from job creep. In other ways, this role is nothing like the description. I am supposed to be maintaining our social media, working on development initiatives and managing our annual interviews. I have done one of those three things. Every time I bring a social media plan up, it is dismissed. Same with development ideas. And besides, I have no time for those things when I’m constantly doing my boss’s work and managing his personal engagements and appointments. I probably should talk to HR. I hate to do that because I generally view that as putting more work on the HR person’s plate when there is very little likelihood of change, but it’s the right thing to do. I also have other issues with HR giving me the run around about pay and benefits, so I am not particularly keen to involve them, but again it might be the right thing,

        I assume my predecessor did these things before me. She was described as having been a very bad employee the last few months she worked here. My boss wondered if she had developed a drug dependency or something. I found this supposition to be alarming at the time, but I am now completely sure it had nothing to do with that. I can imagine that she, too, become tired of the way this dept. works and stopped giving a damn. But, the truth is, I just have no clue what was done before me. I have suspected that my work is extremely exceptional in light of past people and that I am being exploited for my expertise instead of promoted and developed as the job description said I could expect.

    2. WellRed*

      Please drop the “ it’s unfair!” Thinking. It’s not the problem here and it’s not uncommon for bosses to get advantages the rest of us don’t. Focus on the actual issues, like impact on work, your schedule, the communication issues…I’m glad your looking to get out.

      1. Arts Admin Pro*

        Uh, well, it is not equitable to require your employee to commute 2 hrs one way and then not even show up to work. This is not a once in awhile thing. It’s an every day thing. Don’t be a nit picker.

        1. Arts Admin Pro*

          Also, the location changed from the original location after a few weeks, so no, I did not take the job knowing about the commute. The original location was a 45 minute one way commute.

        2. WellRed*

          There are some serious issues with your job that have nothing to do with whether your boss is in the office. Your boss probably sucks and it won’t matter if they are in the office or not. YOU wrote to an advice blog. My advice is the same: focus on the issues and make an escape plan. Additionally, If your job location has moved two hours away, there may be a possibility of qualifying for unemployment but I don’t know if you want to go that route.

  107. Programmer amongst Excel Users*

    I’ve heard several people in my group refer to someone who isn’t particularly helpful as a “programmer”. As an actual insult – “Ugh, he’s such a programmer”. It’s happened more than once, and I have no idea why. Fwiw, everyone in this group is computer knowledgeable and competent in simple Excel, but that’s about it. They hired me cause they wanted someone with more technical / programming skills.

    I’ve directly pointed out that i am a programmer, and the response is along the lines of “oh not you – you add value”. This is like bigotry based on job description. It’s simultaneously funny, stupid, and horrible and I have no idea how to react. (Ignore it? Start referring to my team members as Excel users ?)

    Anyone encounter ridiculousness like this before ?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      I’m baffled. I mean root cause is clearly, at some point, the programmers were vastly unhelpful to this team… but what a jump.

      Start referring to your team as n00bs and filthy casuals.

    2. Anonymous Graduate*

      Hmmm, when they say “he’s such a programmer!” I don’t think they’re referring to what he’s actually doing for work. If I had to guess, I think they’re referring to the way he interacts with them or the way he thinks about his work.

      For example, in my field, I might say someone is “such a(n)…
      (a) Engineer” if they think mostly in numbers and specifics, and tend to overlook the way they or their work impact other people,
      (b) Architect” if they use a lot of abstract language to describe simple concepts and suggest big ideas without an plan for implementation,
      (c) Reviewer” if they’re nitpicky, point out mistakes or small details that are technically incorrect but don’t impact the overall project,
      (d) Project manager” if they vastly underestimate how much time a task will take or jump in to answer questions they don’t have all the details on.
      It’s more about using archetypes as a shorthand to communicate frustrations or personality than about describing a person’s professional function. Sometimes it’s mean-spirited, sometimes it’s lovingly.

      All of that might not be true in your case, but it also might be worth thinking about! Are there specific behaviors that elicit the “such a programmer” response?

      1. Programmer amongst Excel Users*

        Usually when someone seems less helpful than one would hope – doing the minimal necessary, etc. It’s definitely not a compliment, nor is it representative of my experience amongst programmers in general.

    3. J.B.*

      Excel people tend to be really into excel and keep doing stuff in it that is much easier and more repeatable in script. It’s them they are committed to their way even when it doesn’t make sense.

    4. PollyQ*

      I’d be tempted to ask them straight out why they’re using that word as an insult, mostly because I’d be totally baffled by it. (Full disclosure: I worked as a programmer for 25 years.)

  108. Brett*

    Looking for some advice on what to do for International Women’s Day.
    We definitely celebrate it at our company, but I am not clear what would be appropriate actions to take within our team. I have one direct report who is a woman and no peers, but several women in our team who are a level below me when I am in a leadership role. (Think of it as I am the lead within my team of peers, and my peers have women who are direct reports.) As an example, typically on employee appreciation days I do appreciation and recognition for both my peers as well as direct reports to my peers.
    Do I do anything specific in support of the women within our team on this day? Or do I do something more generic to celebrate International Women’s Day? Do I just highlight the celebrations that are happening within the company via the professional groups for women within the company?

    1. fueled by coffee*

      I’m just one woman, but I think it’s fine to just point out the celebrations through the professional groups. I would personally feel weird being singled out by a supervisor/supervisor-adjacent person for… being a woman.

      You could say something generic like “In honor of International Women’s Day, I’d like to point out how much I value the contributions of the women at our company,” but anything beyond that is probably overkill IMO. The best thing you can *actually* do for the women in your workplace is to push back against sexism and promote women’s rights every day, rather than congratulating them for existing on one particular day.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I would go with your last idea, just forward the invites to events ahead of time. This is different from employee appreciation days – those are specifically work events. IWD is closer to Mothers Day and Fathers Day, you can say a quick happy X day to the group but any more than that would be weird at work.

    3. Reba*

      IMO International Women’s Day is not a “celebration” type holiday. The point of it is to advance gender equity through education and advocacy.

      It’s not like employee appreciation days or like Mothers’ Day (I know mothers’ day actually has a political history, I’m referring to the way it’s observed nowadays with flowers and brunch, etc.) and for me I would feel strange to get a message that boiled down to “hooray you’re a woman on the team.”

      So, yes, do highlight things your company is doing for the cause of gender equity and women’s participation in your company/sector.

    4. Anon Today*

      I’m the only woman on my team and personally I wouldn’t like to be singled out. Plus, I sorta feel it’s the men on my team who need to learn more about women’s history & subtle ways women are discriminated against at work, not me, haha. I think just forwarding invites to the whole group and saying by the way, feel free to take the time off to go to these events! would be absolutely fine.

      There might be some women who would want to be singled out. I think you would know if this were the case, because they would mention how excited they were for the day/events. If your report hasn’t really mentioned it, she probably doesn’t care too much about it…

    5. Brett*

      Bit late to come back to this, but I should have added that the appreciation and recognition I do is individual. I don’t single people out in front of the team. I send them a personal individualized note of appreciation, normally along with a small (~$50) bonus calling out specific accomplishments for the bonus. I am only authorized to send those bonuses to certain employees, so that’s an even bigger reason for not doing anything in front of the team as not everyone gets the bonus but everyone gets a note of thanks for specific work done. (I actually think I am maxed out on those bonuses to send anyways right now, so it would only be a note for everyone, but sent specifically to them.)

  109. StellaBella*

    Can I celebrate just a little here even tho with the state of the world it feels a bit selfish?

    Last night I was on a panel discussing controversial environmental issues and only found out who my co-panelist was a couple hours before….. they are a hero of mine. For years I admired them. I freaked out but managed to do the panel fine, without fangirling. We have exchanged emails. I am beyond thrilled.

    Now a question: how do you manage having highs like this when work is stressful because of the war situation? How can you be able to cope when the environment you are working to save is being destroyed by yet another war in yet another country?

    1. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      Yes, the Grand Caveat. Everything (for you) is wonderful even in light of (gestures around wildly) all of this.
      I’m thrilled you got to meet one of your heroes (and bonus: they weren’t a jerk in real life). I remember showing up to a random meeting while on vacation in an strange town and getting to see Dave Foreman speak. Blew my mind.

      You are still allowed your joys. Stuff like that is what makes the rest of the grand shitshow moderately tolerable.
      Yes, there is sorrow and terror and dread in the world. Political, environmental, social changes (and lack of changes). And there is sheer, unbridled joy to be found. We have to hold those things to our hearts. But pick your metaphor: Leonard Cohen’s “There’s a crack in everything, that’s how the light gets in.” or (various variations) “A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all.” or Neal Stephenson’s, “Nothing is more important than that you see and love the beauty that is right in front of you, or else you will have no defense against the ugliness that will hem you in and come at you in so many ways.”

    2. Ozzie*

      I think it’s important to recognize that emotions aren’t a competition. And we are capable of holding multiple feelings and thoughts at the same time, without prioritizing one over the other.

      You can be excited to meet a hero while simultaneously being concerned about the world. These two feelings are not mutually exclusive.

      Also, as humans, we can only have so much impact. The scale varies, of course, but at the end of the day, we are also still one individual. To continue living our one life, it is important to not let our personal victories and feelings be entirely drowned out by the weight of the world around us. If we do that, it becomes much more difficult to press on, and address the things that we can address. We need to pursue our own happiness – or contentment – while still looking higher toward the rest of the world. But we don’t have to sacrifice one for the other. (or if you do, we’re definitely living lives on drastically different scales)

    3. Attractive Nuisance*

      What is the practical impact of your emotions?

      Being on the environmental panel made you happy. Happiness is motivational, isn’t it? It makes you want to keep doing what you’re doing, and it makes others want to do what you’re doing.

      Now imagine the same situation didn’t make you happy. Who benefits from your lack of happiness? Probably not the people you’re trying to help. Certainly not the people you’re working alongside.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      We have to take our joy where and when we find it. Look at some of the social media coming out of Ukraine – even the people there are finding small joys and ways to celebrate. Your enjoying the moment does nothing whatsoever to the situation in Ukraine, or to harm the environment for that matter.

      Personally, I am experiencing a moment of vicarious excitement as I read your story – and I hope you are doing your happy dance (or whatever you do in moments like this.) Congrats!

  110. This Old House*

    Feedback: If the Friday Open Thread is going to be questions only, I’d love a different opportunity during the week (or a regularly scheduled addition to the Friday Open Thread, perhaps? boweekly? monthly?) for venting, stories, etc.

  111. Bryson*

    What’s up with companies not wanting to disclose pay until the interview? I work full-time and I’m job searching. 3 companies now have not wanted to disclose the position I’ve applied for’s pay until I show up for an in-person interview (taking time off work to do so of course). Why would I go to an in-person interview and take time off work without knowing how much the job pays? They don’t even offer a phone screen or a virtual interview first which is easier to get away with while working full-time day time hours.

    1. Ozzie*

      The cynic in me says it’s because they know they won’t get applicants if they say how much they’ll pay up front. The semi-cynic in my thinks it’s because they think this is what will happen. I’m sure their response would be “well we would tailor it based on experience/the candidate”.

      IMO it’s always in an effort to mislead.

    2. Empress Ki*

      They want someone passionate who doesn’t work for the money. That’s totally unrealistic. I wouldn’t even waste my time with them unless I was desperate for a job.

  112. yala*

    Is “What about my instructions was confusing” a hostile response to asking a yes/no question for clarification (eg: “Just to make sure, I should dry the llama’s fur before trimming it, right?”), or am I just being over-sensitive. It’s not the first time that I’ve been asked this when I double-checked my understanding of instructions, and it *really* makes asking questions a fraught and stressful experience.

    1. Ozzie*

      Yes, that’s a very hostile way to ask an otherwise innocuous question. I’ve only ever considered saying it in an email when I’ve explained the same thing a number of times…. and still would never actually say it to another human being, because it’s incredibly rude. Especially if they’re simply asking for clarification/confirmation, which is VERY reasonable.

    2. Casey*

      Yeah that’s pretty rude. I work in a stereotypically blunt industry and that would still stand out as overly aggressive. Not over-sensitive!

    3. I was told there would be llamas*

      Is it the same person saying this each time? Are the instructions written…maybe they think you are reading thru them too quickly or are they giving you instructions verbally and you are not taking notes? But either way, it’s a bit aggressive…something I might think but wouldn’t say out loud, lol. Plus, I’d rather someone ask and either it’s a two second, “yes” answer or we realize you don’t understand and can explain again better before you waste time doing something wrong and have to redo it.

    4. ecnaseener*

      It’s one of those phrases that always sounds more hostile than it ought to.

      You’re not overly sensitive, it would get anybody’s hackles up, AND the person might have truly meant “I would like to know which part was confusing so that I can focus my explanation and communicate that part better in the future” with no intended hospitality. (AND they should learn to phrase it better.)

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      It is a pretty strong way to word that sentiment, and likely to come across as hostile in most situations, yes.

      I’m often in the position of giving people instructions / requests for some piece of work, and if asked a question to double check the instructions, I’d answer with “Yes please dry the llama first” (or whatever the appropriate answer is) and some quick elaboration of why that is, if it seems needed. Rather than “what about my instructions was confusing” I’d potentially ask something more like “is there something missing in the request that needs more explanation, because I’m always looking to make these requests more obvious upfront as to what’s required?”

      Your example though, about drying the llama’s fur before trimming it — I realise this is fictitious obviously, but is it typical of the actual question in that it is a fairly obvious, rudimentary thing to ask? If so, it might be worth looking at whether you need to enhance your understanding (outside of fulfilling the actual requests) of some of the background.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      It is hostile, yes, but the context might give a wider perspective.

      If the conversation is frequently like this, with detailed instructions: “First you wash the llama, then rinse it, then dry it, and finally trim it” and you want to clarify “I dry before trimming, right?” then I could see the trainer getting frustrated if that happens a lot because they just said the exact thing you’re clarifying. It’s still hostile and there are far better ways to deal, but there is room for you to work on processing the instructions better (take notes, take a beat to think it through and come back later) or finding a different method to receive the instructions (written vs verbal).

      However, if the conversation is just a high-level or vague “Get the llamas washed and groomed” and you want to clarify some details, then jumping right to “What exactly confuses you” is very hostile and you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t know how to give useful instructions or treat people professionally. The end result is people stop asking questions to avoid getting snapped at and mistakes get made, which are unfortunately usually blamed on the performer and not the manager/supervisor/snapper.

    7. Not A Manager*

      I would respond in kind, but without affect. “The only part that was confusing is whether to dry the llama fur before trimming it.”

    8. Policy Wonk*

      I would respond with “Nothing. Just want to be sure I’ve got it right. Thanks.”

  113. Nervous New Grad*

    I’m going on my first ever work trip next week! My company is flying me out to their office in another state for some in-person meetings and team building activities. I’m a permanent WFH employee and my past internship was remote as well so it will be my first time ever going into a physical office and meeting my coworkers in person. I don’t really know what to expect about working in person! Anything I should keep in mind? I’d especially love to hear from anyone else who had an experience going in-person after being entirely remote, but anyone is welcome to chime in

    1. I was told there would be llamas*

      Do you feel that you understand the dress code? I would hate to show up and be overly casual or formal compared to others. This didn’t happen to me but I have a coworker that has been remote since starting with our company and after like a year and a half, we had an in-person get together…well, none of us introduced ourselves because we’ve been seeing him on zoom for a year and a half (we of course introduced ourselves the first time on zoom but not in person). He had to point out, that seeing us all together, it was hard putting names and faces together b/c all he ever had to look at were the little boxes on zoom. My point being, you might have to ask people who they are and don’t be afraid to do so…we were embarrassed that it didn’t even occur to us to wear name tags or do introductions.

      1. Programmer amongst Excel Users*

        Dress code. See if you can plan to meet up with specific folks that you’ve interacted virtually from that site. If you already know folks there or have coworkers who have traveled there before, go ahead and ask them.

        It’ll be fine. It might even be fun

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I am guessing you have met these people via Zoom or similar so have an idea of what they look like, though some may have only been on the phone or had cameras off. Don’t be surprised if they don’t match your mental picture. Someone may be really tall, really short, in a wheel chair or have some other physical issue you didn’t anticipate. You need to roll with it, not act surprised or react in a negative way.

      Where will you be working – will you be assigned a visitor desk or something? Ask up front where you can put your things. You may need to share a workspace (and the person shared with may not be happy about it so be a good office-mate!)

      Never hurts to bring treats from your location – if your area is known for some kind of candy or something that can be shared, bring some.

      Since they said team building, make sure you have an idea of what that involves. You won’t want to be wearing a suit if it is some kind of outdoor activity. But if it is business meetings with higher-ups the suit might be the right answer.

      Have fun!

    3. Jinni*

      I don’t know if this is weird, but my boyfriend experienced this and these were his sticking points. He started (remote) in July 2021. They’ve had two – all in person/team building days, one in January and one in February. His hardest part the first time around was that it felt like a marathon. Work! Lunch! More work/meetings! Beer! Some kind of gift opening thing as the boss brought in gifts that would have been given/received in December.

      He’s an introvert and it was A LOT. For the one last week, he conserved his energy. Decided how much to eat for lunch/dinner/drinks. Decided how much he was going to talk, etc. Whether it’s being an introvert, OR being out of the office (any office) for nearly 2 years, his advice would be to pace yourself – and also make sure they have a place for you and equipment for hot desking, so that’s not too much of your day.

  114. Cheezmouser*

    How can I get colleagues to contribute more?

    I’m a manager who often works on cross-team projects with other managers in our department. I’ve gotten feedback that I tend to go off on my own, and that I need to bring the rest of the team with me during collaborative projects. My natural preference *is* to work collaboratively, but what usually happens is:
    1) I organize a meeting to discuss a problem or project
    2) I frame the issue & why this is important, present the objectives & scope, and then open it up for brainstorming ideas and solutions
    3) I get crickets. Sometimes people ask questions or we go down tangents, but more often there’s just silence, confusion, or wild stabs in the dark.
    4) I try to guide the discussion by asking guiding questions, providing visual aids, explaining what I see are the problems and opportunities and what a potential vision of success could look like.
    5) They still don’t get it. Sometimes they don’t understand the problem, sometimes they don’t understand the potential solution I’m proposing, oftentimes it’s both. They don’t see what I see; it’s like we’re speaking different languages.

    What usually ends up happening is everyone either a) blindly agrees to the solution I’ve proposed without providing any feedback on how to improve it, b) nitpicks at my solution without actually proposing any improvements or alternatives, or c) doesn’t understand my solution and asks to see an example, which essentially entails me going off and creating the thing just so I can show them. (C is the most common and is probably where the feedback about me going off on my own comes from, followed by B.)

    These are all senior managers with 10+ years’ experience, not junior staff! We are all US-born, mostly white, and speak English as our primary language, so it’s not because of cultural or language barriers. We are all Teapot Designers, i.e. peers with the same title and functions, so it’s not because I have specialized knowledge or a different role.

    It’s very hard to collaborate when your collaborators aren’t collaborating back with you. I’m at a loss on how to proceed.

    1. Ozzie*

      Can you send out the issue before the meeting, giving them a chance to think of solutions ahead of the brainstorming session? Being asked for solutions on the spot just isn’t going to work for some people. If you give them a couple days notice (via email with an agenda, or the visual aids you’ll have at the meeting, etc), it might give them an opportunity to think on it, and be more ready for discussion. If you’re still having trouble getting people to collaborate after that, then I think you have an issue on your hands. But the way you’ve framed it here at least, you’re asking people to come up with solutions to things they have just now heard about for the first time, but which you have had ample time to think about. So it may be coming off simply as, “here’s the issue and the solution – what do you think?”

    2. retired3*

      I had experiences like this when I was working years ago. Looking back, I saw opportunities others did not see (installing first voice response system to let you know if you’re getting your child support 24/7 instead of hiring more staff, for example). You may just be more of a visionary and need a job where you can do that.

    3. pancakes*

      It sounds like more of this process needs to be circulated in written form prior to the meetings, so that people have a chance to review what you’re suggesting in advance rather than seeing it for the first time in the meeting and immediately being asked for feedback. Similarly, if you know they’re going to ask for examples of what you’re describing, have those prepared in advance and include them in the pre-reading memo or packet.

    4. Anonosaurus*

      “I try to guide the discussion by asking guiding questions, providing visual aids, explaining what I see are the problems and opportunities and what a potential vision of success could look like.”

      I can understand why you might do this if you’re feeling frustrated that people aren’t contributing, but I suspect that you’re in a vicious circle where where people don’t contribute and then you provide too much guidance, people don’t feel that they have genuine input, as so they don’t contribute, and so on. Have you thought about taking some training in facilitation skills? I really understand the temptation to start offering solutions or framing the solution space when you have great ideas and people aren’t proposing anything themselves, but I suspect that you will get more from people if you give them more space to find the problems and opportunities and shape the vision rather than setting all that out for them and expecting them to propose solutions.

      To put this another way, I think you maybe need to start further back in the process by opening up the problem definition And scoping to them. This will be torture when you have already thought all that through, but in my experience if you want to engage people with ideas and solutions, they need to firstly work through what the problem is themselves and secondly have the belief that the process is genuinely opened up for their solutions rather than being a token consultation because the solutions have already been devised by someone else. I am not suggesting that you think these meetings are tokenistic but when you are the kind of person who can go away and come up with a great plan all by themselves (I am one too!) I think you need to show that you genuinely want other people’s input THrOugh how you go about the process rather than just telling people that is your goal.

    5. Tyna*

      Brainstorming is crap for me. I don’t come up with ideas that way. I need time to reflect and process. If you want my input, you need to give me the infotmation in advance, let me think about it for a few days, then meet to discuss ideas. If the first I know of the problem is in thid meeting, all you’re getting is crickets. I’ll have ideas in a few days, but by then you’ll have moved on.

      The current process isn’t working, so change it. I’d suggest a briefing meeting or circulated documents several days ahead of time, and a dedicated discussion meeting where it’s clear that the objective is for people to bring ideas and solutions to discuss.

    6. Cheezmouser*

      All great ideas, thank you! I will look into circulating more information in advance and holding separate briefing vs brainstorming/discussion meetings.

  115. Batgirl*

    I need a reality check as to whether I should be this mad at a parent (I teach). I gave a 13yo student a Friday detention midweek after a few incidents where was disrupting the class; the final straw was when he grabbed another student who was fetching something. I told him his behaviour was unacceptable and he had a detention as the class ended. At this point he grabbed a second student, swung him wildly and hit his head on the corner of the table. This classmate was quite hurt; he had a banging headache and blurred vision. So in addition to the detention, the school sent him home and called his mother. I also called her and told her he had a detention on Friday (I would have done it sooner but our system showed he already had detentions every day with other teachers). Mum said she was totally supportive of the detention because he’s wild at home too. When I reminded him earlier today, the student had totally forgotten about the detention, was aghast and asked if he could switch to Monday. I told him I’d already arranged things with his mother and I’d be back at the end of the day to do the half hour detention. When I came back, the teacher and TA said he’d walked off very rudely. As per our policy I called home to tell them he now had an hour’s detention on Monday. As soon as I mention the detention his mum says “Oh I completely forgot; can we rearrange?” She then goes on to say they’re going out for a family birthday and “leaving in a minute” even though this was only about 3.30pm and her son wouldn’t even be home yet. She said “it’s my fault, I told him to be straight home”. I just said he can’t walk off from staff like that without consequence, but I would have called her if he’d asked me to. Am I wrong to be exasperated? A colleague’s assessment of mums reasoning is “bullshit”. He’s had a horrible week behaviour wise in which he injured someone, and had daily detentions. He’s behaving badly at home and the minute school’s out on Friday he’s being taken to a party?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      How is he injuring students and only getting detention?!

      I don’t think the mom’s handling of the situation is good, but there’s really nothing to be done there.

      1. Nervous New Grad*

        I agree, this is really terrible. Is the mom aware that he physically injured another student?! If I was the student who got hurt or their parent I’d be pretty upset.

      2. Flower necklace*

        Agreed. I work at a high school. If there is a fight, both students are automatically suspended for a week – as in, they are not allowed to step foot on school property for a week. That’s the minimum punishment.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Exasperated? You should be furious. He committed battery against another student, and he got DETENTION? That he’s not even apparently required to serve?

    3. Metadata minion*

      Wow, yeah, that’s a student whose problems go way beyond being a bit impulsive in class and it’s infuriating that his mother doesn’t seem to recognize that.

    4. Attractive Nuisance*

      Wait, what? Not to criticize but I feel like you (and/or the school system) are wildly under-reacting to this. Is the other student ok? Has he received appropriate medical care? How does he feel about returning to a school where he was brutally assaulted?
      Also, why is there a student receiving detention every day? I mean clearly it’s time for a different approach, right?

      1. Batgirl*

        The student was fine after about twenty minutes, but I don’t consider the incident to be fine at all.

        1. Attractive Nuisance*

          Can someone be “fine” 20 minutes after a head injury severe enough to affect their vision? Was he checked for a concussion?

    5. WellRed*

      I don’t think detention is quite the punishment you think it is. I hope the injured student’s family has reached out to a lawyer to deal with your school’s failure to deal with this swiftly and appropriately.

    6. Batgirl*

      There are wider sanctions in place as well (expulsion is on the table and we’re having parent meetings because home needs to be cracking down too) – it’s just that I’m not willing to let the detention go because if he’d followed my instructions the unsafe behaviour wouldn’t have happened. I should probably have explained it was unsafe behaviour rather than an attack. It was clear from his giggles and not looking where things around him were, that he thought he was playing. He has some special needs that make him rather immature. A fight would be an expulsion and this accident is being considered as close to that in seriousness because the safety element is similarly in play. He’s excluded from the rest of his class within school for now to see if his behaviour improves. How to succeed in getting through if he’s going to parties straight after school though?

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        I’m confused. He grabbed two students and banged one student’s head against a desk. It’s hard for me to understand how that could be classified as unsafe play rather than an attack, unless you were teaching a swing dancing lesson or something. If his family isn’t taking his behavior seriously, maybe it needs to be reframed as “he is grabbing and hurting other students and seems to misunderstand this as playfulness.” Rather than “he’s bad at following instructions.”

      2. Fergus's fed up co-worker*

        I mean, I get that it’s frustrating and I think many people would be exasperated with this – your feelings are definitely warranted there – but, as an outsider, I think you’re getting hooked on mom’s behaviour when it’s not the biggest issue (and FWIW, I read “family birthday” as “obligation it’s going to be a pain in the bum to get out of” rather than “happy fun times as a reward for a long week of hard work”). I think you need to accept that you can disagree with it all you like but it’s not within your control. And, as others have said above, I don’t think detention is even the right approach here – I mean, he’s had four this week, I’m not sure what a fifth would have miraculously achieved that the others hadn’t!

        I think the exclusion is probably a good move and touch wood it works out.

        1. pancakes*

          I agree about the birthday, but how exactly would exclusion help a child who has trouble regulating their behavior learn methods or coping skills to do better? Or address whatever the underlying issues are, if not trouble self-regulating? It doesn’t work that way even with adults who have fully developed brains. Punishment isn’t intrinsically rehabilitative. The idea that it simply must work is pretty sharply at odds with decades of studies at this point.

          1. Batgirl*

            I really agree with this, which is why an expulsion is always a sad thing, even if the referral units are more densely staffed and supportive. However he is sailing really close to the wind. Being unsafe is one of the main reasons schools can’t avoid expulsions, and suspensions have already been tried with this pupil.

            1. pancakes*

              Yes, that makes a lot of sense – the safety of other people in the school has to be a primary consideration too in a situation like this.

      3. usernames are anonymous*

        The fact that the mother asked to reschedule his detention and he is having daily detentions for an entire week makes me think neither parent nor student are taking them seriously. If you don’t want to expel him can you suspend him for a week so they get how serious the situation is.

        1. Batgirl*

          You’re right (and unlike others have actually given me the advice I was looking for on whether I’m overreacting to be mad) but I can’t suspend or expel anyone. I actually didn’t give a detention for the injury either! In my post I say how I gave the detention *before* the injury. The injury is relevant only because his family seemed shocked on that day, but now it’s NBD. I can’t personally punish the injury because that would actually diminish it. I kicked that up the chain because it’s a big deal.

          1. Attractive Nuisance*

            Ok, so I re-read your comment, and now I have a different understanding of the situation. Am I correct that he assaulted another student as an act of retaliation because he was upset about the detention? If so – to answer your actual question – I think your anger at the mom’s reaction to the detention is both understandable and kind of misplaced. This kid has serious issues, and a detention for not following instructions seems totally irrelevant. I would assume the mom is stressed out by her son’s behavior, even if she doesn’t show it the way you want her to. It sounds like his school life is pretty much a disaster, and frankly, if he’s being put in detention every day it does not sound like this is a constructive environment for him. Why would his mom make him go to detention at this point? Like, how would that benefit him or her? If a family birthday party is an environment that works for him, I can absolutely see why she wouldn’t have him miss that to go sit in detention for the fifth time that week.

          2. WellRed*

            I think this is similar to those work situations where the employee behavior or whatever keeps getting addressed incident by incident but eventually the pattern needs to be addressed. Not sure how that’s handled in a school situation. And yeah, I get why you are upset with the mom. It doesn’t sound like she’s taking it seriously.

    7. Double A*

      Responding quite late. I’m thinking your use of “mum” suggests you’re not in the US. You mention special needs. As a US teacher (special Ed certified, have always worked with tough kids), I would be asking if this kid has an IEP and if so is he perhaps in need of a behavior plan.

      Detentions clearly aren’t changing his behavior (do they ever?). I’m wondering what is the root of the behavior? Is he trying to play or connect with others and just being totally inappropriate? Is he getting enough physical activity? Does he actually have the skills to regulate himself or does he need to be taught those? What is your school doing to actually help this kid with his behavior?

      I don’t think you’re wrong to be exasperated per se but your discipline system sounds like it’s just as much a punishment for you (a lot of time out of your day, no?) while also not teaching the kid anything expect that he’s a bad kid.

      1. Batgirl*

        Excellent questions. We call an IEP something else, but he has one. He does need help appropriately socialising and being too physical when he wants to play or connect is a part of that. Complicating matters there’s others in the room with the same issue, and being physically unsafe is a consensual joy between many of them! He has a really structured social group play session to learn more suitable interactive skills and the regularity of that is being stepped up. The other part of his plan is we are to be really consistent and predictable with sanctions like detentions, and to implement them as soon after the incident as possible. I think what was stressing me out is that by the time we do the detention (which will involve role playing out the issues which led to the detention), he will have forgotten most of it.

    8. J.B.*

      The parent is a problem, but this is a case where I think you should burn some capital and suggest an evaluation and IEP process. The violence goes well beyond the norm and the admin needs to address it. Not to say that the parent would be receptive but this ain’t cutting it. (Note that I’m focusing on the child who caused the violence because he is a child and because an admin this wishy washy is probably going to try to avoid telling the parents of the injured kid anything. Also an IEP does not prevent discipline but in theory it should be better targeted.)

      Then if still no movement go to the district.

    9. fhqwhgads*

      This would’ve been automatic 2 week suspension at all the schools I’ve attended. The mom sounds like she’s not doing much to help with his behavior but that’s sort of the least of the problems if he’s this violent, accidentally or on purpose.

  116. Fergus's fed up co-worker*

    Fergus will a couple of times a week tell me about something which is broken and he wants me to fix. My issues with this are:

    a) It’s usually something minor and, on more than one occasion, he’s interrupted me while I’m dealing with a big, urgent task – think telling me the tap in the kitchen is dripping while I’m rushing off to fix the flooded basement.

    b) It’s not his job to be checking up on me. In fact, I’m diagonally his senior (he doesn’t report to me but I’m on the same ‘level’ as the person he reports to).

    c) His approach is such that he’s not alerting me to something, he’s telling me what to do. So, rather than “Hey, just so you know, the tap in the kitchen is dripping”, it’s “The tap in the kitchen is dripping and you should fix it”.

    d) He seems to be doing this instead of doing his actual job. I’m slightly hesitant on this one because obviously I don’t have total oversight of his work but, whenever I’ve asked him to do something, it’s not been great quality and he’s been really slow to deliver.

    e) Sometimes, he’s asking me to do things which aren’t even my job. For example, he recently asked me for sets of sales figures on a product line (not really needed for his job but, fine, not like they’re top secret either) and then asked me to justify why we were still running the product line and, if it were up to him, he would shut it down because sales were too low (answer: because that’s not up to me – that would be grandboss or even great-grandboss – and, actually, the sales figures show the product is well performing!).

    Other people have commented that he is hard to work with, I know his line manager has had to work with him on his productivity, my line manager has gone as far as telling me I can just ignore him (!) and grandboss has made comments along the lines of him being argumentative. So at least I know it’s not just me!

    But does anybody have any good tips for working with a Fergus or keeping your cool?

    1. Jules the First*

      This is a situation that calls for a head tilt, confused slow blink and “hmmm. I’m not the right person to bring that to, Fergus.” Then go straight back to what you were doing. If he keeps doing it, pull rank “hmmm. Fergus, you seem really invested in my workload. What made you think you should bring that to me?”

      1. Fergus's fed up co-worker*

        So, my line manager has tried a similar approach with him – as in “Why do you want to know that, Fergus?” when he was questioning how things which did not concern him were going. It worked pretty well (in public, at least, I’m not sure if Fergus returned with further questions after I had left and I don’t think it actually stopped the behaviour in the long run!) so I’ve been thinking of trying it myself. I think my problem is getting tone right on it (I don’t want it to be seen that I’M the one being difficult now especially when it only temporarily stops the behaviour). Thanks for the advice.

    2. Annie Oakley*

      If you don’t report to him, I think you can feel OK about not taking direction from him. I’d try being as neutral as possible when he brings these requests to you and trying to redirect to his manager. “Hm, that’s not really my area but I’m sure if you talk with Colin he can point you to the right person.”

      I know I’m projecting on this part, but I’ve seen it before where people who feel underappreciated at work try to deal with that by bossing around whoever they can. If your line manager says you can ignore Fergus, take them at their word! I wish you the best of luck, I’d be pretty frustrated too.

  117. Unpaid wages*

    I’m writing in about my husband, John. He started a new job in October working for a non-profit that offers pro bono legal assistance (however, John is support staff, not a lawyer).

    When he accepted the offer, he explained we had a 2-week honeymoon planned in November and was granted the time off, with the understanding that it would be paid. We got back from our trip, and John saw that he didn’t receive a paycheck for that period. He had also worked 2 full days during the pay period.

    He brought it up to his boss, Marvin, and Marvin said he’d “take care of it.” However, now it’s the middle of February, and it still hasn’t been taken care of. John has emailed Marvin multiple times to ask about the status of his paycheck, and every time Marvin says “I’m working on it, you’ll have by Tuesday” and then Tuesday passes, and lo and behold, no check.

    John told Marvin in January that by this point, he just wants the money he earned for the 2 full days of work, and he’ll take the rest unpaid, but still there’s been no movement on this issue. Marvin is very high up in the company — the only person higher is the CEO, who John has never met. The company has HR, but they are slow to respond to John’s questions, if they respond at all (he’s contacted them previously about other onboarding things and got radio silence).

    It seems utterly ridiculous that John works at a non-profit that helps people with low income fight their legal cases, but they are also at the same time withholding John’s wages. The organization has so many lofty mission statements about helping the disadvantaged and specially reaching out to communities of color, but John is Black and they are not paying him what he is owed. He feels incredibly frustrated and demoralized by this, but also doesn’t want to create enemies at a new job by trying to go around Marvin, especially over a check that would total around $250 for the 2 days. It’s not worth it to him to get off on the wrong foot with Marvin over a couple hundred dollars, but at the same time, we could use the money and it is his — he earned it.

    I’m not really sure what the question is other than, what are his options? Is it just, keep emailing Marvin every week to remind him about the check, or report him? Is there anything in between that John could consider?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is he onsite? Is HR onsite? If so, I’d walk on down to their office and say “I haven’t been paid for two days I worked in November. Y’all know this is illegal. What are we going to do about it?”

      1. Unpaid wages (OP)*

        No, HR is in another city. I think he’s worried about calling them out on the illegality too because he doesn’t want to create bad blood for himself at a new job.

        1. MsM*

          It’s not a job if they’re not paying him. Write the CEO, and copy HR. He should lay out exactly what’s been done to try and resolve this, complete with dates, times, and copies of relevant communications, and be clear that he needs it resolved post-haste. Marvin’s dragged his heels long enough, and if no one at this company cares about making sure John gets what he’s due, then he needs to be out of there and talking to a lawyer who can help him actually get the wages ASAP.

          1. Unpaid wages (OP)*

            Thanks for the response! Yes, the eventual goal is for him to find another job. But in the meantime, he doesn’t want to piss off his boss and find himself unemployed prematurely. Also, despite this issue, he overall does like this job and doesn’t want to jump ship to just *anything.*

            1. MsM*

              I’m really not sure I see the difference between “unemployed” and “doing work he’s not getting paid for,” except that the former would at least free up more time for him to find an actual job.

              1. Unpaid wages (OP)*

                He is getting paid. He just didn’t get paid for those 2 hours back in November. Besides that, he does get a paycheck every pay period.

    2. pancakes*

      I wish John hadn’t been so quick to agree to not being paid for the full two weeks – it sounds like there was a miscommunication or misrepresentation there that needs clarifying, not backing off from, but I understand it would be uncomfortable to try to get clarification in these circumstances. At the very least he should email Marvin again, cc’ing HR, and say something along the lines of, “Marvin, you promised me in November that you’d take care of seeing to it that I would be paid for the time I worked while I was on my honeymoon, and going on five months later I’m still waiting. I need to paid for this time. I’m connecting HR in hopes that you will work together to resolve this. Please let me know at once when I can expect to be paid.”

  118. Recovering Micromanager*

    Any tips for dealing with a coworker’s annoying habits when they really aren’t that bad?
    My coworker is a decent guy and pretty good worker, but he does a bunch of low key things that rub me the wrong way. He’s the kind of person who likes to shape the environment and the workflow to suit himself while I am pretty much the opposite. We share most duties and several work stations. I am team lead, but not, strictly speaking, his boss, and we’ve both been with the company less than a year.
    I spend much of my day internally screaming that he’s not doing things the way I trained him, and then talking myself down with reminders that the end result is still okay. I do speak up when I think he’s doing something that really needs to be done differently, but the struggle of picking my battles is taking too much of my energy. How do I tune out a bit more and care a little less?

    1. Lana Kane*

      I worked with someone who sounds similar to your coworker. I would sometimes ask him “hey, how come you’re doing this X way instead of Y?” Sometimes it was just his preference, sometimes he actually had figured out a better way and I just hadn’t thought of it. A few times it was wrong and I was glad I asked. After a few of those, I didn’t really feel the need to ask anymore unless I had a feeling it might be wrong. I would suggest reminding yourself somehow that if his way is fine too, that’s just one less thing to worry about during the day. It’s ok to have preferences in the process if being a stickler for process isn’t really necessary for that task. My personal mantra is “eyes on my own paper” – if it’s not an issue, I have enough to do on my own tasks to take on other people’s.

  119. Sammy Keyes*

    I’m applying for a graduate program soon, and if I get in, I would be leaving my current job in about 5-6 months. The application requires two “professional” references, but no formal letters – just the contact info. The pool of people in my life who I can choose from for this is very small. Ideally they would be someone who could speak to my work in the field that the program is in, but I don’t have any direct work experience in the field so I have asked a colleague who knows my work ethic well if she could be a reference, and she agreed. She brought up that another colleague who is in a leadership position would also be a great reference for me. And I agree – that person thinks highly of my work and is really supportive of my growth and development. But she’s senior to me and very involved with hiring/staffing (although she is not HR), and she works closely with my direct manager. Would it be unethical to ask her to be a reference, and ask her to not tell my direct manager?

    (For what it’s worth, I don’t think anyone would try to push me out the door sooner if they found out – things would get extremely inconvenient at my office if I were to leave)

  120. IndyDem*

    We’ve finally been notified when our return to the office will happen. It’s not bad, we were hybrid before – 2 days in office/3 days at home, and now we are in the office 1 day every two weeks. Masks will not be required, but are allowed. One issue I have is that it’s an open office environment with hot desking and will be near capacity on the day that I’m required to be in. My job requires me to be on the phone or talking with colleagues most of the day.

    Question: For people back into the office and wearing masks – what is your experience with making calls while wearing a mask – is it practical at all, or should I just resign myself to being with out a mask?

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      We have a similar hot-desking setup, but all of ours are spread out pretty well. Our office policy (at the moment) is masks when you’re moving around but not required when you’re at your desk.

      I would advise against masking while on the phone. Unfortunately one of the side affects of mask wearing is that it’s harder to hear and understand things through the mask, and as it is also hard to hear/understand things over the phone sometimes I doubt you’d get good results. But you should be OK talking with colleagues.

    2. Amarylls*

      Back when I was in a cubicle, I would lift up the corner of my mask so my voice wouldn’t be muffled when speaking on the phone. It’s not ideal, but it was the only way to still wear a mask (as required at the time) and be audible to the person on the other end.

      If you have a headset or other type of microphone, you might even be able to slip it into your mask.

    3. SpeedyTurtle*

      The first time I went back into the office and had a call I asked my teammates if they could hear me on the other end and they said yes, so I always keep my mask on when I’m on calls. The only thing I do is make sure that the headset’s mic is positioned so that it doesn’t touch my mask.

    4. Sammy Keyes*

      I’ve been working in the office full time since May 2021 and have taken a lot of phone calls – masking has never really been an issue, and everyone has been able to hear me ok. Talking with colleagues is totally fine, too – a few nuances of emotion/facial expression can get lost with masks, it’s true, but it’s not a huge deal, especially if these are already people you know and have interacted with before.

  121. Rana*

    I am hiring my first subordinate. I am currently a one-person department, so this person will be the only other person in our group. I am currently pregnant and planning to be on maternity leave for about 3 months starting August or so. Is this something I should share with the candidates at some stage? I’ll definitely be coming back, and we’ll likely bring on a consultant to help for at least some of the time, so it’s less impactful than if I were leaving the company but I also don’t want to blindside someone if it would impact their decision.

    1. Sloanicote*

      It would be kind of you to mention this to the candidate before they accept. It’s not required or anything, but I think it’s nice. Hopefully you’re picking someone who can handle themselves while you’re gone.

  122. Amarylls*

    How do you handle the situation when you’re in an interview and the candidate mentions a piece of information that we would not normally ask about (such as marital status, having kids, age, etc)? I saw a suggestion that we the interviewers respond by saying we don’t consider those factors when we’re making hiring decisions, steer the conversation back on track, and then make a note of it in the interview notes.

    The candidate usually mentions it as part of the “why would you be a good fit for this position” question (e.g., “I don’t have other major responsibilities” or “I’m reliable! I’m married and have my own car”). If it was a stand-alone statement, I could see responding with the suggested statement, but since it’s usually part of a multi-part response, it feels a little awkward.

    What are some tips on how to handle this (and/or does your org have specific guidelines on how to respond)?

    2. Kes*

      I’d probably just ignore it and address whatever is relevant or just continue on as though they hadn’t mentioned it.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I don’t think you need to respond, if it’s part of a longer response and the conversation continues past it. If a candidate is under the impression that they’re helping their case by announcing they’re married, you don’t need to correct them, you can just ignore it.

    4. Reba*

      If this is happening a lot, would it be possible to tighten up the wording of the question, to make it clear you are asking about work behaviors/qualities, not their personal life factors?

  123. Kate*

    I just came here to rant about office icebreakers that require sharing a “fun fact” about yourself. I understand the valid desire to help workers connect beyond work, but I feel like this is easy for people whose outside interests are cool and athletic, and challenging for those of us with different but equally valid lives. I have a small kid, and my hobbies include reading and sitting on my ass. (And craft beer, which I can never decide if it’s work appropriate or not.) My young adulthood was spent in academic achievements and the path to having said kid, not doing the type of things that make for cool stories.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I think you may be overthinking this a bit and I think you are definitely underselling yourself. Your fun fact doesn’t have to be hobby related, they can be almost anything. I usually go for a laugh. You can talk about your kid too. Craft beer is fine in most places, I’d avoid it if your work seems conservative or if no one else ever mentions drinking.

      Fun fact I’m now on a first name basis with poison control after it turns out my child can defeat all attempts at child proofing.
      Fun fact I once wore mismatched shoes all day and didn’t notice until the evening
      Fun fact I am the statistical outlier (or just above average) in the average adult reads 12 books a year.
      Fun fact I have visited the XYZ monument. (even better if XYZ is like worlds largest ball of twine off route 66 or similar)
      Fun fact my washer is a portal to some new dimension and my household now no longer has any matching socks. (This one seems mundane but actually sparked an easy daily chitchat of do the socks match today yes I must have shopped or no of course not)
      Fun fact I once stayed awake 42 hours during finals in college. (If your longest is under 24 dont choose this one)
      Fun fact I have read all X books in the XYZ trilogy. (Redwall has like 20+ now. Game of Thrones has several too).

      1. SpeedyTurtle*

        I always panic in the moment and pick the same single fun fact every time. Your list is really helpful, thank you!

      2. Coenobita*

        Even aside from hobbies, those kinds of fun facts barely even need to be about *you*! Your fun fact could be “yesterday I read the wikipedia page about manatees and learned that they can grow to be over 3,500 pounds.”
        Personally, I usually share an interesting piece of trivia about my hometown, even though I haven’t lived there in like 20 years.

    2. I was told there would be llamas*

      Nothing wrong with reading…do you have a particular topic you like to read about? Or a goal…like “I try to read one book a week.” Or “I’m rereading the classics.” Or whatever? We did this recently and most of the fun facts were not crazy. One person liked to try new recipes every week and one person owns 200 pairs of shoes.

    3. Purple Cat*

      Fun Fact:
      My favorite book is XX I’ve read it YY times.
      I’ve lived in the same state my whole life. Or Lived in x States.
      I love the color purple.

      It doesn’t have to be some incredibly witty thing. I think you’re discounting the validity of your experiences much more so than other people will. (we are our own worst critics).
      Just *something* that makes you more relatable as a person.
      Personally I think referencing craft beer as a hobby is fine, as long as you’re not saying you’re going binge drinking every weekend and drinking in the office. (search the archives for the whisky drinker for a LOT of opinions on this).

    4. Kes*

      Yeah, I mean I get it because I have struggled at times to answer questions about hobbies (my primary hobbies are reading and wasting time on the internet) but at the same time you are overthinking this a bit and it doesn’t have to be ‘I won an olympic medal in ice sculpting’ or anything outstanding or wild (and let’s be real, most people’s lives aren’t, it’s not just you). Your fun fact can be that you just finished reading x series or your favourite book is y or you once ate three avocados in one day or whatever works, it just gives your coworkers some grain of knowledge about you to commence the relationship building process, but 90+% of these facts get forgotten by everyone shortly afterward.

    5. HBJ*

      The others have given great advice. It doesn’t have to be a hobby. Here’s one for me – I’m on a first name basis with a Super Bowl halftime show singer.

      (This person I know is just an average joe. But, yes, they did literally sing at the halftime show as part of Up with People in the 70s or 80s.)

    6. Daffodilly*

      I once used “My fun fact is that I am clueless about the difference between a fun fact and a boring piece of trivia, so I got nothin!”
      It got a laugh and people moved on.

      1. Kay*

        As someone who hates these “fun facts” I love your response. Although I might be tempted to change it from “clueless” to “intentionally not untaught” said very rapidly in an act of malicious noncompliance.

        1. pancakes*

          Who is the malice for? If it’s for yourself, maybe just keep it to yourself. I get that some people feel really put on the spot by this type of question, but taking that brief moment as a chance to get in a little dig about how much you dislike participating is pretty crabby. People who answer without being snarky aren’t necessarily enjoying it any more than you are, either. It’s meant to be a way for people to get to know one another a bit, not a question about whether you’re enjoying the meeting.

    7. The answer is Kombucha*

      Not a fan of icebreakers. I try to work the word “kombucha” as often as I can. Q“What do you consider your spirit animal?” A:”Kombucha”
      Q:”Give us an alliterative name for us to remember your name” A:”Kombucha Anne” If done with a wink and a smile usually people will give a quick laugh & move on.

    8. Double A*

      As a full time working mom with two kids under 4 who used to do all sorts of cool things, I think this is a phase of life where any question about yourself or your interests feels like a veiled insult because you feel like you have no interests or anything interesting about you. I, too, have wanted to scream, “Eff you, my hobby is doing laundry!” at a poor hapless coworker who was foolish enough not to realize I am currently but a husk of my former interesting self these days.

      I’ve do try to remind myself I am a particular phase of life that will pass…and also getting on a low dose of Zoloft for postpartum depression has helped substantially and I feel now at least hope that someday I can do fun adult things again.

      1. allathian*

        I have one kid, who at nearly 13 needs a lot less attention from me or his dad than he was younger, and my fun adult things to do are reading, watching TV/streaming, hanging out online, playing games on my phone, and low-impact exercise like riding a bike (in the summer) and short slowish walks (usually 2-3 k, rarely more than 5 k). Before the pandemic I used to do tai chi once a week, and I really miss that, but my teacher decided to stop completely when the pandemic started.

        My team has hired a lot of new employees during the last two years, including my current manager. In the first team meeting a new employee attends, we have a round of icebreakers when they ask what you like to do in your free time/a fun fact about *yourself* that you’d like to share (so random trivia doesn’t work), and these are always a bit awkward for me. One newish coworker has a black belt in karate, which she told us when she returned from a tournament with two black eyes and a broken nose, another is training for his first triathlon… He can ride a bike for a longer distance in one session than I manage to do during the summer.

  124. Casey*

    Is it ever appropriate to suggest to a peer that they … work harder? “Sam” and I report to the same manager — I have about 5 years of work experience, whereas Sam is fresh out of school. We work in an industry that’s fairly prestigious and well-paid, but the assumption is that salaried employees will be somewhat flexible with things like checking email in the evening or occasionally working >40 hours. Sam leaves at 5pm sharp every day and will pretty flatly refuse extra work— at one point my boss asked me to delegate a small task, and Sam straight-up told me “oh, that sounds hard, I don’t want to do that.” People I work with in other groups have asked me what Sam is actually responsible for, because he keeps forwarding their emails to other people on our team when they try to ask him about specific tasks. He’s about 6 months in now – from an outside perspective, his workload seems very reasonable, but the issue of deflecting/refusing tasks seems to be getting worse, not better. Is this a “gently educate new grad on workplace norms before he ruins his reputation” situation, or a “let my boss handle it and assume Sam will either flame out or shape up” situation?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      IS your boss handling it? Has Sam seemed open to feedback? How’s your rapport with Sam?

      1. Casey*

        Boss is aware but I have no idea if he’s taken any action. When I brought up the refusal to take on the delegated task he said “thanks for letting me know, I’ll handle it”. So maybe it’s being handled?

        I have decent rapport w Sam — our team is fairly small and tight-knit. I’d say we’re somewhere between “cordial” and “friendly”, but I’m usually just answering his questions so I haven’t tried giving him particularly strong feedback.

    2. Asenath*

      If it’s affecting your work, bring it to your boss . “Sam” shouldn’t be refusing to do anything reasonable that your boss asked you to delegate to him! Similarly, if he’s forwarding work to you or others on your team that he should be doing, bounce it right back at him – I used to reply to a Sam, copying the person (say, Susan) who sent him the request saying something bland like “Hey, Susan, there’s some misunderstanding. Sam is handling this.” And if it happened more than once, I’d speak to Sam face-to-face, or even send him something like “This is really your work, not mine.” I did sometimes get feedback that my emails were a little brusque, so I might add “If you have a specific question about how to do it, please ask”, but I would NOT do it for him. Sometimes, if I thought it might help, I’d try to gently offer suggestions about which things were Sam’s responsibility and which weren’t, or about who he might ask if he’s not clear on his role. But I don’t think that always works were if you’re a co-worker (no management responsibility) or don’t know Sam well (he’s a newish employee, perhaps). People like Sam might get offended, or not take you seriously.

    3. I was told there would be llamas*

      Oh my, for the delegating one, I would have a hard time not saying, “I wasn’t asking you, I was telling you.” LOL. But a more diplomatic response would probably be, “Boss thinks you can do it and asked me to pass it onto you…why don’t you give it a try and let me know where you get stuck.” I think it’s a tell boss exactly what you said above about people not knowing his role and let the boss guide him. I have a harder time with the checking email one…especially since people don’t want to be on 24-7. I would assume he’s not checking email but if it’s a busy time or special situation, maybe say, Hey, it’s yearend, please check your messages throughout the night as we have tight deadlines…or get his phone number and text him if something is important. And for 40 hours, is he missing deadlines? If not, then hard to say, you expect him to work over 40 hours IMO.

    4. Choggy*

      Regarding the small task that you delegated to him, was he trained in how to perform it and should know how to do it? I can’t imagine getting that kind of response from my coworker, who is a complete slacker and gets out of work like I can’t believe, but he’s more underhanded. I have a feeling your “Sam” is my “Charlie” 30 years from now. Nip this in the bud at your organization, absolutely let your boss know how Sam is underperforming, not by him not working over 40 hours, but his directly being insubordinate about not doing a task he was delegated.

    5. Ozzie*

      The delegation thing is bad here – that should be addressed. It’s one thing to say you have too much work to take on a new project – but it doesn’t seem like that’s what’s going on here.

      But I think it’s weird – well, wrong, honestly – that he’s being socially punished for having boundaries around working more than 40 hours, answering emails outside of work hours, etc. We all know this happens, but it’s pretty icky to punish the one employee who is willing to enforce their work/life balance boundaries when no one else will. Maybe, instead, you should all do the same, and indicate to your employer that that’s not a reasonable way to run a business. I think we can all agree that sometimes things happen to tip over 40hr a week, but if it’s happened enough that you’re pointing it out – even if you cite it as “occasional”…. is it really only occasional? And if it’s happening because you’re corresponding over the weekend/after hours… can you just… not do that thing? I know this depends wildly on field, and like, yeah sure sometimes it’s necessary. But be honest with yourself – is it -actually- necessary?

      1. Casey*

        Yeah, that’s a good question. Ultimately, working a bit more than 40 hours and having “on-call” periods is part of the nature of the job. The compensation reflects that, and the expected commitment is made very clear in interviews. Plenty of folks walk away because they want more work-life balance, and that’s totally okay, but culturally it’s definitely not something that’s easy to push back on.

        1. Ozzie*

          If it’s brought up up front as part of the deal, and compensated as such, then yeah that’s a different story. He knowingly signed up for it, and within the confines of those raised expectations, should definitely be held to that agreement. Thank you for the clarification!

          If the boss has said they would handle it (as I saw you say above), give it time to see if it’s being handled? If there’s literally no change, it’s probably worth approaching your boss again as it continues, cause if they say they will handle it, it’s ultimately their job to do so.

  125. SloanGhost*

    So…I just got laid off for the first time ever. Basically I was promoted from reception to admin at a busy animal clinic, and have spent a very happy 4 months clearing basically all of the non-financial backlogs we were buried under (office manager kept the accounting stuff) and just thinking of things that it would be good for us to have and making us have them, and setting up routines/systems so that all of the previously backlogged things get dealt with on regular schedules and don’t build up again. It’s going very well, but the problem is…I now finish most of my daily routine tasks by about 2-3 PM, and office manager is running low on bigger projects to give me (most larger projects take me significantly less than estimated time to completion).

    My impression was that once this happened, I would be receiving further training to take more tasks off her hands, since she is still absolutely swamped most of the time. She and I had been talking about things in future terms–5, even 10 years down the line. I had put some thoughts about moving states on indefinite hold, and mentally and emotionally fully reinvested myself in the business.

    Monday she sat me down and let me know I was being laid off. The decision came from corporate, not her, and she was nearly as upset as I was about the news. They just don’t “have enough for me to do.”

    Here’s what really salts the wound: I got promoted as a counteroffer because I had resigned. I had been actively job hunting and considering relocating for new opportunities, and had begun mentally/emotionally separating myself from the clinic. If I had known I had an expiration date of under six months, I would have still BEEN job hunting this entire time. I might already have something–something that would be willing to keep me longer than FOUR MONTHS. Now I’m staring down the barrel of unemployment/losing health insurance/etc.

    I know these are not things that businesses have to or even can consider when laying someone off and I am trying not to take it personally, but it FEELS like they begged me to stay, used me to clear up the clutter, and then kicked me to the curb when it came down to actually investing in my development. One minute it’s “we see your value, and we are willing to do what’s necessary to keep you,” the next minute my “value” is gone.

    So here are my questions:

    How screwed have I been? Am I justified in being upset beyond “ow that stings”, or is this OK and regular and I should get over myself?

    I am talking to our regional manager next week–I am calmly waiting to hear what she has to say. But if my suspicion is correct that she wants me to work reception at a different clinic, how can I best express that this is not acceptable for me (I resigned in the first place because reception literally DESTROYED my mental health during and after COVID and I am not exaggerating when I say that I cannot do that work again and stay sane and functional) in a professional and polite manner? My dream is that I get to actually express my displeasure in a calm but somewhat icy way, but I realize this may not be possible–or may even not be justified! I do not think I am having my clearest thinking right now!

    I am lucky–I have two weeks to get my affairs in order and retrain reception to take my duties over. But it is INCREDIBLY painful to be sitting here going through the motions of my job knowing that I am SOL in a matter of weeks, and to have no one even know what is going on with me. When I asked office manager who/how/when I should tell, she said “you don’t have to say you were laid off, you can just say you are moving on to something new.” This…confused me. Is this a secret? Am I supposed to be embarrassed? I have been assured I am at absolutely no fault. Am I obligated to hide my layoff to avoid making people uncomfortable/avoid damaging morale? This is petty, but at the moment I kind of WANT morale to be damaged, and also just on a human emotional level it really sucks to be pasting a smile on when inside I know I have been kicked to the curb and am devastated.

    On a more practical note…I’ve read a lot of AAM posts about layoffs and severance, and one thing has not been clear to me: can I ask/negotiate for severance when I am still hourly/non exempt?

    1. WellRed*

      I would ask for severance and point out that you turned down another job offer to stay. You may not get it but it’s worth asking. You are under zero obligation to hide the layoff and it’s weird they asked that.

      1. SloanGhost*

        Mm let me clarify because I think counteroffer was actually the wrong word, what was countered was my intent to leave. I did not yet have an offer, though I CERTAINLY might by now if I had been continuing to job hunt during this four month period. I’ve lost a lot of time, but not another job.

        My boss actually phrased it as though she was offering me a way to save face, though maybe she just thought it would be unpleasant for me to talk about? She is incorrect. I will gladly tell absolutely everyone.

        1. Cj*

          I’ve had similar things happened to me a couple of times, and both times it worked out for the best. If you had been looking for and accepted a job during those four months, that means you wouldn’t be looking now. And maybe your “dream job” wasn’t available during that time, but it is now. And maybe you’ll get that dream job, and think with this was the best thing that ever happened to you.

          I know you are justifiably upset, and it’s hard to look at the situation in any way that is positive. But hopefully for your mental health you will be able to get to that point.

          1. SloanGhost*

            Honestly a positive perspective is welcome, I have a hard time getting there since major life changes like this in the past have resulted in things like being forced to take retail work because there was nothing else, moving back home, losing my entire savings etc. So, rarely for the best in my experience. But I can hope!

    2. Ozzie*

      It’s weird to ask to hide a layoff. That’s a pretty normal reason to move jobs, and hiding it would be WAY weirder. (my previous job, the company shut down, and we were all technically laid off. When asked, I was blunt and said that the company closed down. Why would I say I was laid off/moving on to other things when none of this was in my control?) Feel like they’re saying that because it is in their best interest for it to be a secret. (since layoffs don’t look GREAT to prospective employees, and even patrons in some cases)

      You’re right to be upset, they seriously mistreated you here imo. Ask for severance (what do you have to lose by doing so?). And ensure a good reference to future employers (from your manager). If she’s hesitant to do so, be suspicious. I generally wouldn’t advise that, but the request to lie makes me suspicious.

      1. SloanGhost*

        It didn’t seem like she was deliberately asking me to hide it as much as offering me a way to save face, which I found strange because I didn’t think I needed to. I’m not embarrassed in the slightest.

    3. Antilles*

      Thoughts:
      1.) You’re totally justified in being angry at them for changing their mind knowing that you passed up another offer. It’s understandable business reality on their part, but it’s also completely fair for you to feel like they handled this poorly.
      2.) That said, accepting counter-offers is always risky. Alison has explained it in detail if you search the archives, but the applicable tl;dr that seems like it happened here is that you can end up getting mentally tagged as “the person who wanted to leave” and be first on the lay-off line if the company has financial reasons to start cutting costs. I do not mean this as blame and you shouldn’t take it that way, but it’s a lesson worth keeping in mind.
      3.) You should not be embarrassed about being laid off for work-related reasons. This has nothing to do with you and everything to do with lack of work plus financial reasons. So you shouldn’t have any hesitation in saying that to co-workers, friends, or family. You’re certainly under no obligation to keep it quiet internally when people ask where you’re going. In fact, you want to be able to say in interviews you were laid off due to company finances, because that’s clearly out of your hands – saying you were “moving on to something new” raises the immediate question in their heads as to why you weren’t job searching in your new industry first.
      4.) You should absolutely ask for severance, while reminding them that you turned down another offer to stay. They may say no, but it costs nothing to ask.

      1. SloanGhost*

        I feel like I am going to be making this comment 45 times because I accidentally used a term I had been using as a mental placeholder and it is not actually accurate: I did not have another job offer, so I was not actually counteroffered. My mental health had suffered so badly that I was willing to leave without a place to land–probably this non-strategy was effective because I was absolutely NOT bluffing. So, I was…courted to stay, let’s say.

        All I have really lost is four months I could have been using to continue my search and interview (as well as practical concerns like when leases are up if I were to end up moving).

        It is not a total loss, because I can still say I was promoted and put a stronger job title on my resume, and I didn’t have that before. But I was also hoping to say I had 2+ years of experience in that position rather than less than 6 months.

        And yes! I absolutely will say in interviews that I was laid off for financial reasons. The thing that had me scratching my head was breaking the news to coworkers. Probably the Irish goodbye is not the ideal way…

      2. SloanGhost*

        Also this is just my personal saltiness talking but if they hadn’t lowballed our one potential DVM to the point of such insult that they ghosted…we probably would have generated enough revenue (and work!) that they could have kept me. It’s part of a pattern of corporate constantly praising us for being one of their strongest clinics but instead of responding with support, they neglect us because they know we can “handle” adverse circumstances. I can’t say I know much about business but it seems like a bad strategy in the long term.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I would absolutely not try to cover up the fact that management decided to let me go. “Jane said my last day is next Friday. I’m wrapping things up as best I can.”

      Ask for severance if you want … or ask if you can wait out your 2 weeks after your loose ends are tied up. Then tie them up quickly.

      File for unemployment. And tell your next employer that your promotion resulted in you doing such a good job fixing the problems that they didn’t need you anymore. This is not such a bad thing.

      1. SloanGhost*

        That’s a great suggestion!
        Re: unemployment, do I file now or wait until my last day when I am actually technically unemployed? Not sure what the rules are.

      2. Sloanicota*

        If I’m understanding correctly OP, if they offer you another job in reception at another clinic and you turn it down, that may (?) affect your ability to collect unemployment. They may also feel that they don’t owe you severance or anything else if they have offered you another role, even if it’s not what you want. Most companies will feel they made you whole there. I would make it as clear as possible you are not interested in working reception and see if they can do anything else for you, but if it’s that or going without pay, there may be an option like agreeing to start in a month (during which you frantically job search and hopefully quit before ever starting).

        1. SloanGhost*

          I would hardly consider a demotion to be “whole” and I would expect a pay cut to boot, but that’s a subjective observation and not Business Law. So yes, that may be the case.

  126. Cheezmouser*

    I need an attitude check: I’m a senior manager in my department. Our director is responsible for weekly reports and has asked me to proofread them. I understand that it’s important that there are no typos in our reports, but I feel like proofreading is something one of our junior staff can take care of. I raised this to the director but was told no, I could not delegate this. I am annoyed and resentful — not because I think it’s “beneath” me (okay, well maybe a little), but mostly because I’m insanely busy, I already work nights and weekends, and so it’s frustrating that I’m not allowed to delegate something that would be easy to delegate. Granted, delegating this will save me all of 15 minutes a week, but for me it’s more about having one less thing to deal with. I’ve already been shot down once, and so my question is: 1) am I making a mountain out of a molehill here? 2) should I try asking again to delegate this or should I just shut up and proofread the report?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Do they want you proofreading for typos or for actual content?

      1. Cheezmouser*

        I’m doing light copyediting to massage the language and proofreading for typos, not fact checking content.

    2. MsM*

      Yeah, I would push back and see if you can get more clarity on why it’s so important that you be the other set of eyes on this. If Director wants you reviewing the actual information along with SPAG, or is concerned about the junior employees’ workload, okay, maybe that’s valid. If it’s “I said so because I said so” situation, then maybe this is an opening for a bigger conversation about how much you’ve already got on your plate and how to go about shifting some of that if this is really such a high priority.

    3. Choggy*

      Are you the only senior manager in your department, or, if not, are other senior managers tasked to this as well? Is there specific information on these reports that should not be seen by anyone below your level of management?

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are you unusually good at it and other people are not? A really good proofreader can be hard to find (if you’re not just checking for obvious typos but going beyond that).

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Yes, I’m the most meticulous person in the department. Other people are capable too though. They would be able to do a good job, so really it’s the difference between an A and an A+. This is an internal company-wide report (think of it like a company newsletter), so while it’s high visibility for the director and a typo could be slightly embarrassing, nothing terrible will happen if it’s less than perfect.

    5. Robin Ellacott*

      I do this at work although I’m at the top of the Org chart – simply because I’m good at tone as well as grammar etc.. That said, I’m happy to do it, so if you’re not or if someone else could do it as well, it’s fair to ask it go to them instead!

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work this would be an issue of rank. Directors do not have junior level staff check their work. It would make sense that you, as the deputy, would do it. Yes, it seems to be a lower-level task. But while the junior person could check for typos, you are the one that would notice that a particular paragraph could be misinterpreted about a policy direction. I think you need to just accept that you need to do this.

  127. Academic setting*

    I am going to keep this a little vague, but I need some guidance on how to leave my current job at an academic research lab. I have been here for a few months less than six, but I feel like it was bait and switch as far as job duties go. I am also hoping to apply to grad school in the future (one of the reasons why I took this job as I thought I would get experience and buff up on my CV), but I am looking for new jobs.

    Based on what I know so far, people in my position leave for grad school and stay to help train their replacement. I will be giving two weeks. I will burning this bridge but I really want to go due to some events that I won’t detailed here but how can I navigate my future resignation? I am also a little scared that my supervisor may trash talk me.

    1. PostalMixup*

      I’m inferring you’re currently something like a lab tech? In my field (biosciences), if the position wasn’t working out for you, it would be reasonable for you to find a new one. At any large-ish research institution, there should be other labs looking to hire a tech. The PI might not be thrilled you’re leaving so soon, but anyone who would trash talk you for that is probably not someone you want responsible for a rec letter, anyway.

      And, sure, some techs stay at the same institution for grad school. But plenty go elsewhere. And in fact, at my university, PhD students were explicitly disallowed from doing rotations in a lab they’d previously worked in, either as an undergraduate or as a tech.

      So find yourself a lab that’s a better fit, leave this one off your resume (probably), and get your rec letter from your new PI and collaborators. Good luck!

  128. Anon for Today*

    The Friday open thread has been so illuminating.

    So I have a job offer.  I tried to write about it earlier but everyone here was like, “wait until you have an offer”.  And this hiring manager wanted to offer it to me at 3pm yesterday and have my answer today.  That’s why I think about jobs *before* the offer so I have time to consider what I want in an unhurried way.  I did ask for until Monday morning to decide.

    I’m in the middle of a nice job search.  Out of 21 applications, I’ve been on 5 phone screens.  Soon to be 6 on Tuesday.  Of of the phone screens I’ve been on one full interview. That yesterday.  She called to offer me the job the same day.  She would be my direct supervisor.  I had another full interview today at 12. And I expect to hear about scheduling a third full interview today as well.

    Sigh. I’m not super-excited about this role. They asked me a good question today.  Why have I not risen out of entry level jobs?  The truth is, nonprofits I’ve been at don’t promote from within.  And I’ve been too shy to try to make a jump with new jobs.  I do try.  But people are responding best when they see experiences I have already had.  So I keep getting the same type of job.   So I asked about growth.  In the interview they seemed really positive about growth. 

    The salary was low for things I’ve done for nearly ten years.  Like if the range was 60,000 – 70,000 and they offered me $66,500 to start. I live in an expensive city.  They don’t know that I was already making $66,500 (these aren’t the real numbers, btw). When I asked with my experience if I could get the upper range that had been published in the job description (up to $70,000), she said that they wanted to give me room to work to $70,000, but that after they had seen my performance I wouldn’t stay at $66,500.  

    Then during the health benefits discussion I asked if there was a HR department and she said that was her.  That was a red flag when I reflected on it.  She seems like a wonderful caring woman.  My instincts are that she’s good and she wants me to work there, but I worry about if she leaves or my instincts are wrong, there isn’t another entity other than the CEO to go to.  

    I wish I had more full interviews under my belt during this search but I don’t.  It doesn’t always line up perfectly.  I really like her and feel they would be supportive to my growth in their way but I also felt stressed about the salary.  How can you expect me to ‘grow’ to the upper range you have posted in the job description?  I guess it’s not in their budget but I don’t know.  It is the only offer on the table.  And I tried by bit at negotiating but it didn’t go anywhere.

    I do need a job, but something about the details of this one, they aren’t bad, but I don’t feel supported by the salary.  But it is a bird in the hand.

    1. – I do think I should think carefully about a job before the offer.  I had scant hours between interview and offer.  Why do hiring managers want you to decide by the next day?

    2. – I could end up with nothing. Or a hiring manager less supportive.  I have no one currently to compare her to. (See ETA: Now I do.)

    3. – Hiring managers – do you ever hire people who on paper might not have the experience but have great cover letters?  I feel I’m doing the same job over and over at different places and the ones with leadership and the growth I want don’t offer me even a phone screen.  

    Thanks, commentariat!

    ETA:  They withdrew the offer.  From points I brought up.  First, my salary requirements. Second, they said they couldn’t find all of my references even though I told her on the phone that I had to get permission from the references to give out phone numbers. I will warm my references up in future, but they even wanted a peer and I need to reach out to him first since I don’t usually refer to peers.  I don’t work with him anymore so this takes time.

    I think they offered that job to me too fast and I hold no ill will at all to them. But now I don’t know what to tell the other place (which seems like a better fit) because I told them I had an offer and they are rushing their process a bit to accommodate that. That said, that interview went really well. But I don’t think it’s wrong to take my time. And if I tell them the other place is out of the running, how word it so they don’t think I dropped it for them? Which I didn’t. But Other Place doesn’t need to know the details, really.

      1. Anon for Today*

        I was thinking that but they asked to let them know if I took the other offer. Which I would have told them in any case. And I have to write a thank you so it feels weird not to mention that I didn’t take the other offer.

        But I don’t have to, I suppose.

        1. MsM*

          What they mean by “let us know if you took the other offer” is “let us know so we don’t keep you in the mix or push HR to put something together for you.” As long as you’re still expressing strong interest in your thank you, they’ll assume you’re still available. (Or if you don’t hear from them in the time frame they indicated you should hear from them in, or it feels like it’s been long enough that you should have heard something, then you can reach out and affirm that they’re very much your top choice at this point, but you don’t have to address it before then.)

        2. Reba*

          I think you can just say, “so you know, Other Offer is out of the running. I really appreciate you working to speed up your process on my behalf anyway.”

          Like, I don’t think there is a strategic reason to keep it from them, particularly since they ask. And if you would be happy if they *didn’t* move so quickly, it could be a help!

    2. MsM*

      Other Place doesn’t need to know anything. Frankly, Withdrawn Offer Place sounds flaky enough that it’s possible they’ll circle back to you with a “so, hey, turns out we can’t find anyone at this level of experience who’s willing to say yes to this salary range with zero time to think or room for negotiation; you still interested?” (I wouldn’t be, personally.)

      1. Anon for Today*

        Withdrawn Place’s offer was causing me more stress than being unemployed, honestly. But the woman seemed so nice. I think she is but there is more going on there than I knew.

        They might come back!

    3. ferrina*

      This place feels a bit shady. Maybe not intentionally, but giving you less than 24 hours to decide on an offer? And I have serious side eye when a company says they’ll let you “work your way up to the top of the salary range”. Um, no. That’s not a real reason for a salary. You’re paying me for my skills- my skills are not dependent on “room to grow”. That just means that your retention strategy is “leaving them hoping for more.” Nope!

      For what to tell the other place- say “the offer didn’t work out”. It doesn’t actually matter that they withdrew the offer. What matters is that it wasn’t a match (for salary and other reasons). You may want to prepare an employer-friendly summary of those reasons in case the other place asks (which they might, to make sure that they are able to offer you what you are looking for. So be ready to tell them what you do want, rather than what the old company didn’t give)

      1. Anon for Today*

        They are but probably not intentionally so, but out of inexperience maybe? I feel their good intentions but this is my livelihood. I have to feel on steady ground. Gosh, at least out the gate!

        I already asked about salary and other things that were of interest in the first offer. This one also almost offered too but instead are accelerating their process. I didn’t feel uneasy at all, either. I felt much easier. No red flags. And I hadn’t been that excited but I feel excited now! But I have learned to wait.

    4. usernames are anonymous*

      You don’t need to tell the 2nd company the offer was withdrawn. If you wanted to you can tell them you couldn’t agree on salary requirements.

  129. The Assistant*

    This for any BIPOC folks here.

    Been on a job search while unemployed. I have worked mostly in nonprofits. All of them have been predominantly white institutions. I am usually the only person of color in the office. This for 20 years. I know change is slow so in this search I am trying to figure through interview questions, whether folks are at least allies or co-conspirators and at least have some analysis about their role in supporting diversity in the workplace.

    I ask the question and while people seem well-meaning I can tell they are trying but not in a way that will support me right now. I am getting a few offers but sigh. I am so eager to work and simultaneously exhausted to join another of these organizations.

    I have tried applying to the few BIPOC-led organizations but none have responded. Yes, sometimes the constituents served in a European-American led institution are diverse communities, but upper leadership and the organization culture remain unchanged.

    I can still have a good experiences with those I’ve chosen to apply to. But I am still weary and a little disappointed.

    Can BIPOC folks here relate? I wish I could ask a group of BIPOC hiring managers their thoughts, but I haven’t been able to find a source.

    Thanks in advance. No offense meant to non-BIPOC folks or folks representing other marginalized communities. If you don’t mind, I’d prefer to hear from BIPOC folks.

    1. Frankie Bergstein*

      I also am a BIPOC individual, and I absolutely feel your pain about how challenging it is to be the only one. (I noticed that when we started doing Zoom — my face was the only non-European American one in the grid.). My workplace is a predominantly white institution. I faced / am facing a bout of burnout, and this issue + the almost daily micro aggressions, especially when we are in a DEI training, are painful. Note that I’m on th sensitive side of the spectrum.

      For my own situation, pre-pandemic all of the BIPOC women did a happy hour where we could talk openly about how we experienced race at the organization. It did wonders for my mental health. Now we are remote, but I’m starting a remote one. I’m also honestly just starting to be more open and saying what I actually think — sometimes gently when we are in a mixed group and more directly when I’m in a BIPOC only space. (Wish me luck that this works! Also, I’ll have a more senior post soon so can call this out more directly I hope.)

      To your question — ask about the composition of their staff, of their team, how they recruit. Also ask about their DEI initiatives, how they’ve addressed our recent racial reckoning in the US & what their responses to high-profile events were. Then really listen between the lines — who is responding? A junior person with strong, compelling points to make? Everyone shifts uncomfortably and the most senior person on the panel gives you something that sounds canned? If an organization said “this is our plan, here’s how we are doing against it, and here are clearly articulated goals to support / recruit / retain BIPOC staff”, I’d be into that.

      Also – informational interviews with other BIPOC staff especially if they’re willing to be blunt. If they’re not, the strategy above may help.

      Finally, Glassdoor has sometimes pointed to information when organizational cultures are horrendously backwards.

      Hope this is at least a teensy bit helpful

      1. The Assistant*

        It was helpful. I wish there were more BIPOC folks reading this blog. It was definitely helpful, though. I think I may need to form my own support as well.

  130. K*

    Hi everyone,
    I am asking for your advice on remote work, especially design, and “digital nomad” lifestyle. Any links to websites, advice forums and other informational resources will be very much appreciated.
    I am a citizen of you-can-guess-what country. My contract in Western Europe ends in a short time and is unlikely to be renewed. There is no way I coming back to my country, so I plan to go to any country where it is easy to obtain residence permit (it seems that the safest bet in my situation is Ecuador) and start looking for a remote work. I am an experienced life scientist (biochemistry and structural biology), but I can’t see how I can use these skills in the future. Many years ago I was an art student, but dropped out and went to study chemistry. I still do painting, drawing and phoyography as a hobby, know how to use in Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign, but my “portfolio” mostly includes flyers and posters that I made for a volunteer organization, as well as figures for my scientific publications (schemes and biomolecule visualisation s). But I have some savings to live on for the first year or so, and to invest in education/training.
    I guess my main question to readers is: what type or remote work would you recommend to learn in my situation? Or design is not a viable option and I should learn to code?

    1. Aka*

      Biochem might be more hireable than the arts to be honest. I know visas are hard, but it is a special and concrete skill set. Think about how you got contract jobs in the past, and maybe start by looking at specific drug companies or medical device manufacturers rather than country?

      1. K*

        For most developed countries, I have to apply for a visa from my home country. If I go there, I get jail time for “fake news”. So my only options are countries where I don’t need a visa, which include Serbia, Montenegto, Turkey, Thailand and some of South American countries.

    2. Silvercat*

      If you know Illustrator and InDesign, I’d say lean into the scientific illustrations. There’s a lot of graphic design to be picked up, but most of it is not going to be especially creative. Some job types to watch for: production artist, label design, packaging labelling. Mix with editor, specialist, and designer as necessary

      If you go into design, any software beyond Adobe Creative Suite is going to be expected to be learned on the job, at least in my experience. If you can get in with a good recruiter or outsourcing company that other companies hire, your career will be easiest, but there is a lot of freelance work out there.

      Some places I know that people use are Fiverr and Guru and similar sites. Good luck

      1. K*

        Thank you! Are there enough freelance jobs in this field? Do clients care at which country you’re located and in which country your bank account is located?

        1. Silvercat*

          I’m sorry, I don’t know. The company I work for outsources some work to India and the freelance sites are full of designers outside the US.

    3. Old Admin*

      Germany has a severe lack of qualified people, especially (but not only) in IT, why not try there? In spite of the visa requirement?
      German companies are bringing in quite a few foreigners on the so-called Blue Card (EU version of a work visa), so I would look on monster dot com for jobs in that country.
      If you can learn to code, that would be best, as programmer jobs frequently don’t require you to speak German well, or at all.
      But design/visualizations also are a possibility.
      You should also set up a Linkedin profile, list your skill sets, and indicate what locations you are interested in. I heard you also can contact recruiters there.
      Best of luck!

      1. Old Admin*

        About you having to apply for a visa from your (dangerous) home country – I would check with the German Foreign Ministry if that is really the case. A hiring company in the EU might be able to assist. Just saying.

  131. Burning Bridges*

    There are so many references to “Burning Bridges” and many people feel it’s a kiss of death.
    What do you think Burning a Bridge entails?
    When do you think you’ve burned a bridge and what were the real-life ramifications?
    When did someone burn a bridge to you?

    1. Ali + Nino*

      Ooh good question. I think a good way to burn a bridge is by leaving all your colleagues in the lurch – case in point, a coworker felt burnt ot and literally just came in on a Wednesday morning and announced he was leaving. No two weeks notice (which would have made his leaving a non-issue). Left by 10 am. He had freelanced with us prior to getting hired full-time and there was no way we would trust him with freelance jobs after that.

    2. My heart is a fish*

      Burning a bridge is a major hit to your reputation, and reputations matter quite a lot.

      It means that if you list that burned-bridge job on your resume, then someone checking that resume (even if you did not list anyone from that job as a reference) is likely to hear a very negative assessment of you.

      Having burnt a bridge is not so much an automatic instant assured kiss of death, but it is 100% outside of your control to manage after the fact. You cannot ensure that a future hiring manager will not contact that job, will not have contacts with the people you used to work for — hell, you can’t ensure that the place you’re now applying to work doesn’t have any employees who used to work at your old company when the bridge went up in flames. Some industries are very small worlds.

      Not a working example, but I’m part of the management team for a particular LARP. Many of my friends are either participants, management, or both for either our LARP or our sister LARPs. It’s a small world. One player decided to run a campaign of deliberately sabotaging our event, in a way that ruined the experience for several other players. When we spoke with him about it, he claimed that we were only accusing him because we were biased against white men who were better at LARPing than the mostly female participants he’d screwed over, and that he hadn’t actually done anything wrong, merely “played the game” better. (Wrong: we are not a PVP LARP and he violated several conduct rules.)

      Well, remember how I said it’s a small world? When Lucy who runs Event X comes to me as someone who ran Event Y 2017 and says ‘Hey, Jon Jerk submitted a signup for Event X 2022, I heard you had some drama with him, fill me in?” Lucy is gonna get the whole story. This guy is banned from every LARP in our network, because that “defense” of his burnt his bridge to ashes and beyond.

    3. Wordybird*

      To my knowledge, I have not burned any bridges in my career.

      A former employer & supervisor definitely burned a bridge with me in the way they handled lay0ffs. It was a very small start-up that was only still in business because the company that owned it was funneling money in but it was also terribly mismanaged. After 3 or 4 years of teetering on the brink, the parent company pulled their funding and said everyone needed to be laid off immediately save for a skeleton crew that would be retained short-term to finish out the remaining contracted work.

      Less than 3 months earlier, I had received a nearly-perfect review from my supervisor who told me that I was the best employee they had. Imagine my surprise when I was told that I was being laid off and the only reason I was not being kept on as part of the skeleton crew was because of “seniority.” Two of the people being kept on had worked there 4-5 months longer than me and were known for errors and needing their hands held when it came to certain tasks.

      I was livid. I kept my cool but I also immediately gathered up my things and told them that I was done working for the day and would be back in the morning. My supervisor, who hated confrontation or conflict, almost cried when he told me the news but he also had no answers or solutions when I pointed out that I was a better employee and had only missed the cut-off by a few months. Unbeknownst to them, I was pregnant (a decision made because I thought my job was secure from said review) so the hormones were really raging. They emailed after the work day to say that everyone who’d been laid off was welcome to work from home (something they had forbidden up until this point) and to let them know when we’d be coming in to pick up our belongings.

      That supervisor tried to stay in touch with me afterwards and apologized several times via email. I kept in touch just enough to retain the reference but no more than that. It was especially galling that this supervisor managed to acquire a job for himself with the parent company but wouldn’t do that for anyone else who had been laid off. I was happy to hear that he felt very badly/guilty after a former coworker let him know several months later that I had had a baby and he did the math to realize he’d laid me off while I was newly pregnant.

      A few of my former coworkers have kept in touch with him since then but not me.

  132. Cori Smelker*

    I have a friend who earned her Bachelor of Arts in Speech and Hearing Science in the mid 1990s. Got married, did the SAHM mom thing for years. Husband fell for a younger woman (can you say ‘mid-life crisis’ anyone) and divorced her, leaving her with 2 kids (one of whom has a form of inoperable and incurable cancer) and no job skills related to her degree. My friend has been working minimum wage jobs since (daycare and fast food mostly). She is a really good writer and wants to break into the copywriting/editing market. The problem is her resume has NOTHING about writing at all – it is all daycare and fast food related. I really want to help her and will introduce her to some magazine publishers (I used to freelance write for several local, regional and even state magazines) but her resume is killing me! I offered to work on it (I do that as a sideline), but I am stumped. How does one move from one completely different industry/type of work to another and have it reflected on paper? I hoping that my introduction to the publishers will be enough, that they will take her on my word and on the writing samples she does have, but if not, I need a Plan B.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Any chance she has a blog or anything? Wrote for a student paper? If not….she might need to work in another field while she gets some writing experience. Even with the most entry-level jobs, she’s going to be up against recent grads who did write for their student papers etc.

    2. ferrina*

      Jobs in smaller organizations or non-profits can have writing components. Smaller orgs often have roles that wear many hats, including writing.
      That said, she’ll still need to break into the office job, which is hard when there’s only daycare and fast food on your resume. I did it through temping, but I had a partner supporting me and no kids. I’d also look for social/support groups for returning to the work place. One of my friends was able to get into data science through one of those groups (it was tech focused and friend had previously worked for a big tech company before SAH). Volunteering can also build the connections, but again, you need time to do it. My heart goes out to your friend.

      1. Cori Smelker*

        My thought was she could break into writing through something smaller – fortunately her kids are adults and the one with cancer is covered by father’s insurance. She moved to Texas to be close to her sister and they bought a mobile home together. Money is really tight and she is working 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week just to cover her share of the bills. She can’t keep that up. I am hoping that my introduction to these publishers can start the ball rolling for her. I did warn her that she likely would not be able to give up both of her jobs right away, it will take a while to build her portfolio.

        1. ferrina*

          I was afraid of that. I’d still look at smaller organizations that offer a livable wage. I wouldn’t put all my eggs in that basket, maybe apply to 1-2 per week to keep that door open (and if there’s nothing viable, don’t force it. It’s not worth the energy). If it’s easier, she can delegate a friend to screen job posting so she doesn’t have to (cuz who has time to read job postings when working so much). Also shop around for the best fast food/retail wages. Some companies are much better than others. If she can build up some savings, that can buy her some wiggle room if she wants to take a break at some point. Good luck to her!!

    3. WFH is all I Want*

      Has she considered looking for an admin position for a communications department? If you’re good at networking, it can open the door to copywriting.

      1. Cori Smelker*

        I don’t think so – honestly at the end of the day I get the impression she falls into bed and starts it all again the following day! I will steer her towards that though.

        1. WFH is all I Want*

          I really recommend it. I’d sell it as a good way to get in the door without the required experience for what she does want to do. Look for companies that foster growth and internal career movement.

          It can also be an eye opener. She may get in there and realize there’s more she needs to know.

          But honestly, daycare experiences have aligned really well with my experiences being an admin. Keeping people organized, random tasks, needing to learn changing routines, having to be flexible but also firm so no one gets hurt…it’s incredibly similar just with outlook calendars and the occasional excel sheet.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      The problem is that everyone thinks they can write. So any time she applies for a job, she’s going to be competing against, well. Everyone. With no relevant experience at all, she might never get a break. Can she write something on spec that would potentially be publishable for your contacts? Can she do (or just start) a master’s program in the field, which would give her some writing samples?

      1. Ali + Nino*

        I would absolutely not recommend starting a master’s program just to get some writing samples – that sounds like a good way to wind up in debt with potentially not even a degree to show for it. I think other commentors’ suggestions of looking to break into office work, perhaps as an admin, in situations where there might be some writing as part of the job responsibilities, is a good one. I would recommend looking at non-profits – The pay might not be great but even for an entry level position it has to at least be on par with what she’s making now. Maybe a part time job will get her in the door. Also, she should check out Taproot, a website that connects nonprofits with professionals (such as writers) willing to do work pro bono.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          No, not just as a way to get writing samples, but to get some training and experience. Breaking into office work with no experience is difficult enough, but finding a job that includes writing too? That’s going to be hard to find.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Though, yes, reading about her current work schedule, it doesn’t seem doable.

    5. WellRed*

      Sorry but without published writing samples probably she’s wasting her time. And the writing field has only gotten more competitive in the past few years as major publications fold or folks pull back on advertising.

  133. lookingforguidance*

    I have been interviewing for new positions and got laid off today. I think I will get 60 days severance but haven’t gotten an official letter from HR. I am viewing this as an opportunity. Here is my question:

    I have an offer from a company that I am not super interested in, but it is an offer in hand – should I take this? Or wait and try to find a better fit? If I had not been laid off, I would have turned this offer down and kept looking. For context, I have been looking for a better fit for a few months and have had some great leads that end up not working out for one reason or another (i.e. hiring freeze, budget reduction for role, other outside my control factors). Does your answer change knowing that I am 6 months pregnant and the primary breadwinner in my house?

    Thanks yall, this has been a whirlwind day.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Do you have the means to hold out for a better option? If you do, I would likely wait for something else if you would have turned this down otherwise.

      1. ferrina*

        Seconding Decidedly Me- how long can you financially hold out? How long did it take you to find this position?
        That’s the info that I would use to guide me.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      What does your healthcare or health insurance look like? That would be my biggest motivation to take the sure offer, even over salary. I’m also very risk averse.

  134. Kabe*

    We’re coming up on contract time, and I’m trying to gear myself up to look at a salary negotiation when I’ve never done that before. I’ve read through Alison’s great points on negotiation during the hiring process, but I’ve been an employee here almost a decade.

    Relevant info:
    -I teach in a private school where everyone is salaried, and the school offers a set % raise for every employee every year, rather than any type of performance-based raise system. (This year, it will be a 5% raise.)
    -Employees are sometimes offered an additional flat rate on top of the set raise (i.e., a few years ago I was given an additional $1,000 raise over the percentage raise “in recognition of the many talents I bring to the school”) – but there’s no structure or explanation as to how this works, it’s kind of just a surprise and written in with a note on our contracts if it happens.
    -We sign a new contract each spring, have no tenure, and have no published institutional pay scale – there’s probably negotiation at hiring, but at 23 and coming from a public school, I did not negotiate my starting salary. I took what was offered.
    -I took on a new leadership/administration role this year while also maintaining a teaching role. My raise was *very small* – and I’m currently paid at about 10k below the average for my titled role.

    Any advice for how to approach trying to renegotiate an offer? I’m honestly not sure how to even open that conversation – I’ve never worked a job where negotiation is a thing, and neither have my parents or spouse (all union negotiations for them!), so I’m not sure who to ask for help. I’ll probably get a contract next week and we’re expected to return them by the end of March.

    1. Anonyme*

      I think if you’ve taken on an additional role in addition to your standard one, negotiation should be expected. Private school teaching is particularly different from public Bc of the lack of union thing, and it can be a strange fiefdom of its own. Are your colleagues comfortable talking about salary? It sounds like it would be helpful to know what’s out there. But in addition, knowing the average pay for your type of role puts you in a strong place to ask! Can’t lose by trying.

  135. Manager who delegates things*

    I have an employee who complains when managers “delegate too much”. As far as I can see, this means that managers assume the role of manager rather than trying to be both a manager and an individual contributor at the same time. She has in the past complained that I do this to my boss (who told me about it but just in an FYI kind of a way and not in a “this is a problem” kind of a way). She recently complained to me that a new manager of a team we work with is delegating too much to their staff to which I responded… that is what managing is. She used to be a manager and took a step back for family reasons, and insists this isn’t how managers should act. But also, this is an employee who has had issues with burnout, refusing to delegate tasks to junior staff, and micromanaging peers. Is this a legitimate complaint? Any advice on how to address it in the future?

    1. ecnaseener*

      It sounds like some combination of: she’s overgeneralizing from her past role, which happened to be one where it made sense for the manager to contribute individually as well; and/or by nature she’s a very hands-on person who hates delegating anything important and she’s integrated that into her belief system of What Good Management Is.

      Obviously I don’t know whether you personally are delegating too much or the exact right amount, but if she just doesn’t like delegating at all, you’re probably fine.

    2. ferrina*

      I’d answer her with a question- “Are you concerned about your bandwidth? If you’ve got too many commitments, then let’s talk about how we can redelegate some of that.”

      Don’t engage on the “managers delegate too much.” The answer will be different for different roles and different teams. The true question is: Is the workload balanced? It’s not her job to be policing what other people do/don’t do. Where she does have concern is if she’s being overburdened by the delegation.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        +1 on this. Complaints of “managers delegate too much” sounds to me more like “too much stuff gets delegated to my plate,” so asking about her workload and addressing that directly may be the best route.

    3. Antilles*

      There certainly are times or roles where “managers should be helping more” is a real thing. A manager’s job, essentially, is making your team successful and effective – usually that means smart delegation and coordinating workflows and etc, sometimes that means being very hands-on because a specific staffer needs it, sometimes that means even taking on tasks which are normally handled by others.
      But since she’s raising this issue about multiple people (you, the other manager) and clearly has a history of her own, it seems like she doesn’t really understand what managing is.

    4. PollyQ*

      I’d nip at least 90% complaining of this in the bud, on the grounds that how other managers handle their teams’ workloads is none of her business, and so complaints about it shouldn’t even be addressed. As others have said, if she has concerns about her own workload, then that’s a valid area for discussion, but otherwise, she needs to quit telling other people how to do their jobs. And FWIW, in most of the jobs I’ve had, managers did none of the “individual contributor” work at all, although of course that varies widely.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      I’d ask for specifics. Because if the manager is delegating individual contributor work, that’s fine, and I agree with your take that this could be about her. But if the manager is inappropriately delegating decision-making to lower levels or to people without sufficient information/authority to make such decisions (or just not making necessary decisions at all), that is a whole different issue.

  136. Alex*

    People who’ve taken medical leave for burnout issues, how much and how did you frame it? I really enjoy my job (good pay for the degree I have, competent colleagues, good benefits, interesting work) but find the hours overwhelming sometimes, which is very common in my field.

    One of my most respected colleagues just quit after a raise with another raise and a promotion lined up, taking a huge pay cut to work for a much less respected firm because he craved more reasonable hours. I’ve been struggling with this especially over the past couple of months and finding myself less effective at work, stressed, anxious and snappish, insomniac and constantly dreading the next day at work and at home. I can’t enjoy my time away from work because all I think about is work. I have a therapist. I take medication. In the past, I’ve taken 1 week vacations and come back excited to tackle new projects. But now I think I need a deeper reset, and I don’t know how to get it.

    Unlike my mid-career colleague, I am in the first 4 years of my career, do not have the rare degree and cannot afford to take a pay cut (our area has notoriously high COL and I am currently eligible for housing assistance). I could afford a month of FMLA by using my overtime hours, but I don’t know if it would be worth it? Does it help? How did you approach your management? Your doctor?

  137. A Feast of Fools*

    Does anyone have any mental tricks or advice to give me about “getting over” the stupidity of having to go back to the office?

    It’s only for two days a week (for now) but I get up at 5:30 AM to be able to just squeak in the door shy of 9:00 AM, sit in a cube under painful fluorescent lighting and then still conduct every non-solo activity via Teams. And not because the other people aren’t in the office. I’m having Teams meetings with people who are LITERALLY 10-40 feet away from me, or who are on the floor above me in the same building. We need to share our screens, but I can do that from home, too, without the *%&$#! commute and uncomfortable environment.

    This week was my first week back and I cussed — loudly — for the entire commute each day, then sat in my cube with my brain going, “This is so stupid. This is so FUCKING stupid,” all day long.

    Also, I have an immunocompromised person in my house, plus I have my own health issues, so I’m spending my 8 hours in the building wearing a KN95 mask with a triple-layer cloth mask on top. I eat lunch in my car and I take the elevator downstairs and go outside to chug water so I don’t have to take my masks off inside the building. I had a 2-day dehydration headache because I can’t just drink water at my desk all day long, like I do at home.

    This is dumb. This is all just so dumb.

    But I don’t have the power to change it. So I need to get over it.

    1. Wet blanket*

      it’s not easy, or simple, but have you looked into working elsewhere? It’s a hot market generally, and it sounds like this job wears heavily on you and is certainly not an environment where it’s easy to produce your best work. I also dislike my office, and have some tips/tricks but I’m not suffering in the way you are.

      1. A Feast of Fools*

        I love everything about my company and my job and the people I work with… except for being forced to sit in a drab cube in a drab building for 8 hours a day, which entails 2 hours of prep at home plus a 1 to 1.5-hour commute.

        The companies in my area large enough to need someone with my skill set are actually even further away than this company. And I do not trust the current job openings that are listed as “remote”, especially since every single external or internal recruiter I’ve spoken to about them eventually says something like, “And, of course, if after a year or so you want to move near the corporate offices, the company will pay for you to relocate.”

        Like, I’m looking at “fully remote” positions so I don’t *have* to relocate! I don’t want to move! I don’t want to commute! I don’t want to sit in an office all day!

        If my current company said, “Feast, we’ve seen how phenomenally you’ve done when working from home, and we’re happy to extend that option to you full time going forward,” I would weep with joy.

        1. Anecdata*

          Anything you can do to cut down the prep and commute time? 3.5 hrs plus sounds brutal! Eg. more casual dressing + makeup if you’re doing that — a lot of offices have become de facto more casual even if “officially” nothing’s changed; or possibly asking for different start hours to avoid peak traffic?

        2. allathian*

          Yeah, the 2 hour prep really does sound brutal. Can you do more of the prep work the day before? Such as lay out your clothes and prepare your lunch the night before rather than in the morning?

          Have you considered changing your hair so that it doesn’t take so long to style? Since you’re masked anyway, how about skipping makeup, or just wearing some mascara if you can’t bear to go completely without?

    2. SpeedyTurtle*

      I feel your pain. For my commute, I walk like I hate the world lol. I am trying to remind myself that a) it’s helping me get into better physical shape and b) it’s great for fighting depression (though not for anxiety – I guess I’ll make them 50/50?). You could also use that commute time to listen to new music or podcasts so it’s serving another (hopefully fun) purpose other than taking away your sleepytime.

      There’s a lovely pie chart comparison out there that shows just how inefficient it is being in the office, which made me both chuckle and cry

  138. Blueberry*

    Anyone have advice about trying to go back to an old job?

    Just over a year ago I quit a corporate job for a government job – it was my dream to work for this government branch since interning for them several years ago. It was entry level and a slight decrease to pay (prior to the raise I got before quitting… that made a larger difference) but the benefits amazing.

    I was lured by the promise of big changes coming to the position and chances to advance with new analyst positions being created. They failed to mention none of this was approved yet, and it still hasn’t been. The big changes are effectively not happening so this remains a more of a data entry role… which is a waste of my skills. Plus the new positions are YEARS away and since we are unionized I won’t even have a chance at them based on my seniority.

    I could wait it out but I can’t afford to stay in the job. All of our expenses have gone up 10 – 50% and I’m capped at 1.2% raises per the union! My husband is on medical leave with no income… so we’re paycheck to paycheck and relying on credit to fill some gaps.

    While searching for jobs I remembered my old employer told me that I would always be welcomed back… I even worked a month remotely in the evenings to help out after I left. They have a lower position open and this is their busiest time – so I shot my old manager an email explaining that I’m looking for other opportunities and I’d be interested in coming back, even if we could only work something out part-time.

    She emailed back the same day and set up a meeting for next week… so that has to be a good sign right? I doubt they’d waste their time if they weren’t really invested.

    The problem is that I don’t really know what I am walking into. I would love to go back to my old job or another position if they can pay me more than I’m making here… and evenings/weekends wouldn’t be ideal but it would be a significant help financially… I’d be able to tough it out part time until something opened up.

    I’ve never gone back to an employer to ask for my job (or anything they have) back – I have no shame in admitting I made a mistake by leaving but I don’t know how to approach the conversation. I don’t want to come across like I’m begging but I also don’t want to be too non chalant.

    Should I be honest about how the job didn’t turn out to be what I thought it was? Should I discuss that I have financial motives for wanting to return?

    1. MsM*

      Job wasn’t what you were hoping for in terms of focus or responsibilities, absolutely, especially if it provides a segue into what company’s looking for right now and how those interests might fit together. Financial motives, I’d hold off on unless and until the conversation gets to salary, and even then I’d keep at more at “this is the range I’m looking for” or “I’m sorry, I really can’t make that work” than getting into the personal details why your minimum is what it is.

    2. Wet blanket*

      I think you probably can say that the slow paced nature of government helped you realize that you preferred [role] and you now know that private industry is a better fit for you. Because ultimately a big part of your problems at the new job are based around speed/processes etc. You don’t need to forefront the money thing, although you should certainly negotiate to make sure any role they offer you is adjusted for inflation and any new skills, not just a copy of your departing one.

  139. WFH is all I Want*

    After all of the issues with my background check and start date, it came down to the wire. But I did get to start on time.

    Now I’m having regrets.

    I’ve walked into a team that is disorganized and a company that relies on institutional knowledge that isn’t recorded anywhere. I have to ask the same 5 people for help and I only know about 3% of what I’m assigned because the processes and procedures are literally “go ask Jim.”

    I have people who have been with the company for 20 years asking me how to do stuff because they were never told.

    I want to bail as much as I want to persevere.

    Any tips for organizing the chaos? The company has just under 100k employees and the information I really need isn’t written anywhere or if it is it’s from ten years ago and the system it references is no longer in use.

    1. ferrina*

      Start writing stuff down. Any process that you have to do regularly, document it. Maybe email your notes to “Jim” and have the SME add notes.
      Start with enlisting an ally. Possibly at least one of those 5 people you need to ask for help from is overworked and wouldn’t mind if people just quit asking them for X. So you can be the person that has notes on the processes that you can then email to others.

      This is a rather silly situation though. Good set up for a sitcom, I guess?

      1. MiloSpiral*

        +1 absolutely agree. Start making time in your day to document, even if it’s just a few minutes every day. I would second ferrina’s guess that at least one person is also annoyed that they keep getting asked. It might be the case that no one documented when the company was small because it didn’t feel like a priority, and now that they’re bigger and their workload has increased, they know it’s an issue but they don’t feel they have the time to fix it. Maybe taking notes as you onboard can be the way you start to remedy the issue, at least for yourself.

        Also—I am so sorry. Working in places that rely on institutional knowledge that lives solely in different people’s brains is so frustrating. I hope you’re able to make it a little more livable for yourself.

        1. WFH is all I Want*

          I’ve asked so many people “what if Toby quits? Then what do we do?” and nobody seems to have an answer. The admins seem to know what I’m getting at though.

          I think the frustrations are compounding my regrets.

      2. WFH is all I Want*

        Excellent setup for a sitcom.
        I had a long string of people telling me to ask someone else and the chain came all the way back around.

        I’m documenting everything. I’m also creating a share point site with all the instructions and processes that I’m slowly piecing together. There’s a strong anti-email culture so everything is done through their chat system which is difficult to organize (I have tasks assigned to me in 23 different places, on 6 different platforms including chat, right now).

        1. MiloSpiral*

          I have tasks assigned to me in 23 different places, on 6 different platforms including chat, right now.

          Oh. My god. I don’t blame you for being frustrated. I would lose it at this too!

          I am glad you are already documenting. It sounds like this might be a cultural issue at your workplace, a dysfunction that everyone seems to have accepted… and since you only just started, it’s hard to say how much you could invoke change. And once you’re ready to share this share point site, it’s likely that you’ll have to gently redirect people back to it several times before they stop just asking you or anyone else questions. But maybe you could at least plant the seed that this would be a worthwhile endeavor.

  140. SportyYoda*

    So, long story short, I’ll be attending a conference next month where I will hopefully be able to network sufficiently to find a job when I graduate (PhD, anticipated matriculation in the summer). In my discipline/field, it’s kind of expected that the next step after a PhD involves traveling to work with a different professor, and you’re expected to have some flexibility with relocating. HOWEVER, I need to stay in a specific area for another year while my partner finishes some licensing requirements for his job (not the end of the world, but it’s easier to transfer licensing to a different US state than start a totally new program). We’re at a point in the relationship where we can be long distance for a non-descript amount of time, but I’m not a major fan of that option unless the new job is the PERFECT fit.
    What is the best way to bring this up with future employers? I am blunt and not afraid of having difficult conversations, but I’m also awkward and don’t want to burn any bridges I don’t have to.

    1. ferrina*

      Er…I wouldn’t. It sounds like you’re putting your relationship ahead of your career advancement. As an employer, that’s not something I would want to hear and might immediately knock you out of consideration.
      Right now I’d be just listening and learning, not looking to narrow the field. You can mention that you prefer to stay in [AREA] for the short term, though be aware that if there is a perfect job you’d be willing to move for, they might hear “prefer to live here” as “will stay here” and remove you from consideration.

      So maybe for right now just say “I’m looking for a job that focuses in [professional area], though if there’s something different that’s close to [location] I’d be more flexible, since I’d love to stay in the area.” Let yourself get further into talks with an employer before location becomes a serious issue-at that point you know how much you want to work for the employer and if you’d be willing to consider moving.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think a non-specific “I prefer to stay in X area for the next year unless something really special comes up” is enough. I assume any moves will coincide with the academic year? If not, would a 6-month moratorium on moving be more doable? What if you said you needed to stay in X for the next few/several months?

    3. fueled by coffee*

      Is this about post-docs? Network as though you could move anywhere (because, theoretically, you could), but mention a *preference* for staying in your area when talking to people who could make those connections (“I’m really interested in working in Llama Grooming. Dr. X’s lab would be a great fit research-wise because [reasons]. It would also be really nice personally because all else being equal I’d love to end up in the [Region] area”).

      Once you see what your options are in terms of post-docs, then you can make decisions about what your preferences are, keeping in mind your feelings about being long-distance for a year. But don’t put the cart before the horse.

      1. SportyYoda*

        Ha! Yeah, post-doc; I always try to phrase everything in the most general terms possible to get a wider variety of answers instead of the “oh this is specific to one field I’m going to scroll past.” I’m not SUPER gung-ho in staying in academia period (I had pretty bad burnout right before COVID hit, and during the past few years realized it’s not an overall great culture fit for me), but, y’know, you take what you can get.

        Thanks for all the feedback! I’m realizing this is part of what is probably a combination of generalized anxiety disorder and specific relocation anxiety on steroids, since I’d be 1. starting a new job 2. in a new location 3. for someone who may be a total ogre but has plenty of Nature papers 4. with VERY few options out 5. and little to no external support network. I know internally everything will work out (somehow), logic brain is just letting emotional brain take over all the personal stuff while it focuses on graduating.

      2. No Name Yet*

        Yeah, I’d use phrasing like this. When I read (and wrote my own) cover letters for one-year internships and post-docs in my field, it’s not uncommon to see lines at the end noting preference for that locality for whatever reason. The letters that don’t include it – maybe they hate the idea of living there, maybe they’re fine with it, maybe they just don’t care – but by not including it, we judge them based on the parts they are interested in, not how they feel about living here.

  141. I don’t know*

    So is the pandemic over now? All restrictions have been lifted where I am and my company even removed the vaccine mandate it had. What’s happening at your company?

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      No masks and no temperature checks when we arrive. We started no masks this week and we start no temperature check ins Monday. If folks feel safer with masks, they can still wear them.

    2. Asenath*

      My former employer (I still am often on site for other reasons) is headed towards nearly, but not 100%, normal in about 10 days. But our situation is a bit unusual in that our provincial public health authorities shut down hard and fast, and had (and have) a lot of public support, so we have very high vaccination rates (and rates of mask usage, which is going from “required” to “recommended”). Former employer is apparently going to continue to require masking (except when seated while eating) even though they are not mandated to do so. I strongly suspect a similar largish local facility, with a history of doing only what’s required, won’t. Public Health has been saying for weeks that we will soon be opening up and treating COVID as an endemic disease (like influenza) as long as the hospitalization rates stay down. They’ve been very open about their plans. So far, the hospitalization rates are looking really good. And no one has the slightest doubt that if they do go up, we’ll be back under greater restrictions immediately. Naturally, many people, especially those with higher risk factors, or family members with high risk factors, are still very concerned, and are planning to continue to wear masks and stay out of crowded situations. The disease is still there – it’s not going anywhere. An acquaintance, who wasn’t able to be vaccinated due to health problems is recovering from COVID now, and was pretty sick, although not sick enough for hospitalization. Lots of vaccinated people have had it, but they usually don’t get very sick unless they’re at risk because of other factors.

    3. Silvercat*

      It’s not in any way over and everyone is pretending it is or should be and I hate it.

    4. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      Not over.
      My state is one of the last holdouts – indoor mask mandate goes away next Friday.
      Not sure what to say about my current employer, other than that they never really cared after April 2020. (See also why I’m looking for a new job)

  142. Oh, the POSSIBILITIES!*

    Is it a good idea to work as a contractor as needed for your current full-time employer after you find a new job? What are the things to be aware of? And how much higher should your rate as a contractor be compared to what it was as an employee?

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      I think Alison’s advice to LWs in that situation is don’t do it because it can distract you from the new gig, and new jobs are tiring! So making sure you have time for rest/recuperation is important. It also may not be the best look to your current employer.

      That said, I would personally consider it under the right circumstances for a very specific number of hours and work product. If the terms of the arrangement are vague, you’re way more likely to end up in a situation where you’re doing way too much for the former company that you have time/desire for. Furthermore, Old Company may drag their feet in replacing you if they have you in an open-ended/as-needed arrangement.

      If you do go through with it, your rate should be much higher than your hourly wage was when you were an employee. Ballpark would be what your total compensation (including benefits) + whatever additional $$ you’ll need to pay in taxes. When I considered a similar situation I figured I’d need about double my hourly rate to make it work.

    2. MiloSpiral*

      I agree with Always Late to the Party. I’d advocate against doing it, but if you are going to do it, push your employer to be really specific about what they’re asking from you, and what their proposed end-date is. Then, evaluate their proposal and see if it works for you. Remember that as a contractor you have a lot more power to turn down work if it doesn’t suit you or if you can’t get it done in the time they need it by. But also, consider that that might be a tricky line to hold with a former employer who you had a traditional at-will employment with. And do set an end-date, because if you don’t, even reasonable employers might drag their feet about replacing you: the work is getting done, so, understandably, replacing you doesn’t feel that urgent.*

      If they can’t get specific—well first of all that’s a red flag, but if you really insist on doing it, you can take a look at what is feasible for you to do for them, and for how long, and then propose that plan to them.

      And yes, Always Late to the Party is right about charging twice your hourly rate, minimum. Alison has a great post about your exact question: https://www.askamanager.org/2012/08/my-boss-wants-me-to-do-contract-work-after-i-move-to-a-new-job.html

      *I just left an employer who, when I quit, proposed that I could continue to work for them “until they found a replacement for me or until I found a new job.” I was like, “………I mean, that’s just the definition of at-will employment, basically.”

    3. Oh, the POSSIBILITIES!*

      Thank you both for the advice. You are right. I care about my coworkers and the cause, but my employer created this situation so I shouldn’t worry about how they will continue a project once I leave. The link really helped to drive home that point. After a lot of high and low emotions about this all week, I feel much better. Thanks again.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        I’m glad we could help! Alison’s post helped to clarify things for me too when I was leaving the job I just left. I hope that your new job is fulfilling and much better organized.

  143. MiloSpiral*

    I am one of those Late People—I am just usually late for things. It’s not because I don’t care, it’s not for lack of trying, I’m just really not good at getting places on time. It is something I am continually working on but it’s a long-term problem that is going to require long-term correction, and I honestly don’t know if I’ll ever be able to stamp it out entirely.

    In my personal life, one thing I have found helpful is giving people a window of time in which I can plan to arrive somewhere or start something, rather than a definitive time. As in, I usually say something like “Can we plan to meet at X Coffee Shop somewhere between 12:30 and 12:45?” It gives me a larger target to shoot for and it still gives someone a reasonable expectation of when I will be somewhere.

    My question is, would this raise eyebrows if I did it in a work context? I realize that being on time for meetings and the start of shifts or the workday is important, and that this strategy wouldn’t be appropriate in those contexts: more than one person is counting on you to be there at a certain time, and not everyone can be that flexible with their schedules. But, for example, would it be odd to say to a client “I’ll give you a call sometime between 12:30 and 12:45 tomorrow—does that work?” or (to use a real-life example) I’m arranging to meet my new supervisor at the office on Monday so that she can escort me to the COVID testing site, and in my email I wrote:

    I can plan to arrive at the Teapot Quality Assurance Office between 12:30 and 12:45 on Monday, 3/7. Does this arrival time window work for you?

    She wrote back and said this was fine, but I’m curious what y’all would think if a coworker or direct report made a habit of using this method of arranging appointments.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I personally don’t love it in a work context. If I’m trying to fit you into a packed meeting schedule, for example, and you want me to reserve a start time between 10:30-10:45, that’s 15 minutes of time that I can’t schedule anyone else in. I think it’s okay (but not great) if you’re doing it with your direct reports, but I really wouldn’t do it with your boss. It feels like you’re saying that your time and need for flexible start times is more important than their schedule.
      There are some exceptions to this, like if the reason you can’t give a precise time is beyond your control or you have a lot of people to coordinate. For example, if you’re part of a work carpool and you have four people to pick up, it’s understandable that you might tell the last person they’ll get picked up between 7-7:15 depending on how long it takes to pick up the others.
      I used to be an ‘always late’ person too, but now I’ve started putting meetings on my 15-20 minutes before they actually start. The built in buffer gives me extra time to plan if I get there early, and it helps ensure everyone can rely on my to show up on time.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Thanks for your response. I definitely see your point of view. I have tried to build in buffer time by telling myself to plan to get there for a time that is earlier than the time that I actually know something starts… like trying to trick myself into thinking something starts fifteen minutes before it actually does. But it hasn’t really worked. However, maybe if I put the event in my calendar at a different, earlier time, like you do, I’ll forget the real start time and that will help me to end up showing up on time.

        1. Anonymous Koala*

          I tried doing it in my head at first, but like you said, it didn’t stick. But once a meeting is on my calendar (with the appropriate reminders) I tend to forget what the ‘real’ start time is.
          Sorry if I sounded harsh! I grew up in a family of always late people, and the struggle is very, very real. The calendar thing was a game changer for me.

          1. MiloSpiral*

            Oh no, you didn’t sound harsh at all! Your response was very fair, and I’m glad you gave it. A friend once gave me the time for an event half an hour earlier than it actually started, because it was a really important event that they didn’t want me to miss (think a reading of a portion of your thesis, a couple of days before you graduate). Sure enough I arrived ten minutes after the time they gave me (so twenty minutes early, really) out of breath and convinced that I had missed their reading and feeling awful. They nodded to me, not even batting an eye, and explained what they’d done. We still laugh about it. I 100% do not blame them for doing what they did and I’m glad they did it. This is how well-known I am for being chronically late and also gives you an idea of just how late I can sometimes be: they gave me a half-hour head start!

            Re: the calendar strategy: Have you ever had instances where putting an appointment at a “fake” earlier time has caused a scheduling snafu elsewhere? Or has it ever caused you to think “jeez, this other person is really late!” because you forgot that you’d put it in the calendar for an earlier time? I am usually pretty forgiving with folks running late since anything less would be hypocritical…. but I admit that I am human, and can sometimes be hypocritical.

            I also grew up in a family of always late people, and I have ADHD, so this is half nature and half nurture, for sure.

            1. Anonymous Koala*

              I haven’t had any scheduling snafus yet (thank goodness) but I have had a lot of 5-10 minute periods of sitting around waiting for people. I don’t mind those – they give me a chance to organize my thoughts and/or relax for a minute before I have to be ‘on’. I don’t really wonder where everyone else is because I know that I’m early. The calendar thing is helpful because it creates a sense of urgency around a particular event/time – I don’t think I actually trick myself into believing that everyone around me is late, I just trick myself into ‘feeling late’ earlier than I otherwise would have – I hope that makes sense, it’s hard to articulate in this format.

              1. MiloSpiral*

                That does make sense, thank you! I will try this strategy out and see how it works. Also, I was thinking about it, and I realized that the potential chance of me erroneously thinking that someone is late is far preferable to constantly being the one who’s ACTUALLY late. And since this is my issue to solve, that should be my burden to bear anyways. Thanks for all of your help!

    2. not a doctor*

      Assuming that you actually WILL be there before that window is up, I think I’d be cool with it. Although I might be a little confused if it was something like a call or Zoom meeting, rather than meeting in person. What would cause you to be late for a call?

      1. MiloSpiral*

        In this case, the answer is “ADHD.” But it’s true that, as long as I don’t forget that I have a call or a Zoom meeting, it’s much easier for me to be on time for those sorts of things. But forgetting a call is a different (though related) issue that wouldn’t necessarily be solved by giving myself a bigger window.

    3. WellRed*

      I’d be super irritated and feel like you don’t think my time is important. I also doubt it will work.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, this. I’m usually willing to compromise with people, but this is where I draw the line. In my personal life, I’ve cut off contact with everyone who’s consistently late, regardless of how much I otherwise like the person. I just can’t deal with that, at all. I guess I go a bit too much in the other direction, I feel that I’m on time when I’m a few minutes early, and borderline late if I’m exactly on time.

        I would also hate to work with a person who’s consistently late to everything, and I don’t really care about why they’re late, I don’t care if it’s that they’re a time optimist and keep overscheduling, or if they simply lack a sense of time, which I understand is a pretty typical symptom of ADHD. It’s just that I’m not willing to make this accommodation, and I guess I’m lucky in that I live and work in a culture that values being on time more than some others, which means that even people with ADHD have to do what it takes to be on time, even if it costs them a lot of mental energy, or they’ll soon find themselves unemployable.

        I admit that I’ve become more intolerant with age, I honestly don’t understand how I was able to study and work as an intern in France and Spain respectively when I was in my 20s. I’d never be able to do that now.

    4. Willow Bark*

      I would think they were disorganised and disrespectful of my time, and would be irritated and annoyed by their attitude. I would find them unprofessional. If they were a colleague, I would ask them if they could clarify their time as I can’t wait around for 15 minutes every time we meet. Because I have, y’know, work to do. And if they were my direct report? I’d tell them to cut it out immediately.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        I think I should clarify that when I say I ask for a window, it’s with the understanding that you can also arrive at any time within this window. As in, when I tell a friend “Can we plan to meet at Coffee Shop X between 12:30 and 12:45?” what I mean is “either of us could arrive at any point within that window and we’d be on time.” But I understand that since it isn’t a common practice, that that is not going to be an implicit understanding. And as I’m writing it, I’m realizing that that flexibility, if people have it, tends to be much more present in personal contexts than it ever would at work.

        Thanks for your input!

        1. allathian*

          That wouldn’t work for me. I can flex about 5-10 minutes, and if someone isn’t there within that time period, I expect a text message with a new ETA, or I’ll leave. I’ve broken off friendships with otherwise lovely people who could never be on time, because I started to get so annoyed with their constant lateness that I no longer enjoyed their company.

          I have one friend who’s almost always late, and I’ve only been able to maintain a friendship with her by never scheduling anything with just her, but always seeing her in a group setting. That way, it doesn’t really matter if she’s late, I’m not waiting alone for her to arrive.

          In a work setting, I really find lateness really disrespectful. People are overscheduled and sometimes meetings run overtime, but if someone makes a habit of it, I’m likely to think poorly of them in the long run. When I have a meeting scheduled with someone who’s often late, I’ll work on something else until they arrive, and if it takes a while for me to switch my brain to what we’re supposed to be talking about in the meeting, so be it. I’m not going to sit twiddling my thumbs while I wait for them to show up. Of course, it helps that I’m still mostly WFH.

  144. sleepyalpaca*

    Any claims peeps or actuaries here? Originally, back in college, I was majoring in Actuarial Science, but then the prospect of possibly working for a health insurance company was so emotionally draining that I last minute switched to an Applied Stats degree to escape insurance… I ended up getting a job Sept2020 as a claims analyst for [company]’s self-insured auto liability program, specifically handling all their reserving, and now I’m wondering if there would be any benefit to pursuing actuarial exams again, both personally (will P&C jobs consider this relevant enough experience if I want to move on into that kind of role? will any employer be chill w/ an actuary who doesn’t want to advance beyond being a spreadsheet monkey?) and for my current employer (who I could possibly convince to pay for the exams/study materials).

  145. Just Wondering...*

    My question is about religious literature in the workplace. There was a post a few weeks ago that tangentially discussed religions that proselytize, which got me to thinking about something I experienced.

    A coworker would leave their religious publications in common areas such as the break room and rest room lounge area. Another coworker would vocally trash these materials in front of whoever was present, as I was on several occasions (don’t know if they ever did this in front of the coworker that left them there). They were a former member of the same group as the other coworker. Definitely some tension there.

    Was the critical coworker OK doing what they did? I never said anything, and as far as I know there was no prohibition on passive proselytizing. However, it kinda bothered me how aggressive this coworker was. They could have just discarded the publications when no one was looking.

    BTW, I am not and never have been a member of the religion in question, I just believe in civil behavior in the workplace.

    1. fueled by coffee*

      It’s probably not workplace appropriate to disparage a religion’s proselytizing materials.

      But… proselytizing materials in the workplace would also drive me bananas. Personally, there *should* be a prohibition on passive proselytizing in the workplace, because that’s also not appropriate workplace behavior.

    2. MsM*

      I think the lack of explicit guidelines about not distributing religious literature on company property via any method is the real problem here, and HR should’ve stepped in and fixed that so there was nothing for adamantly non-religious coworker to get upset about.

    3. Ozzie*

      All of this sucks top to bottom, but ultimately HR should have stepped in and said that while they could have the materials at their work station (in the case of like, personal books), but they couldn’t distribute it, actively or passively, and that included leaving it in the break room.

      But also chat with the other coworker about verbally admonishing it, since that’s not ok either.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Critical coworker could’ve been more professional, yes, but I have a hard time feeling bad for proselytizing coworker. If you bring that into the workplace and (even “passively”) try to push it on people, you’re accepting the risk that people will push back hard.

    5. Reba*

      It sounds like the critical coworker was a bit overly upset about this. But for me the literature-leaving coworker would bother me a lot more than she seems to bother you.

      1. OP*

        Oh I know how to tune that mess out. It’s a big fat MEH to me. Never have been and never will be interested in that group, which I personally consider very cult-like.

    6. Littorally*

      I think trashing the literature was fine — leaving it out for people generally means accepting that people are gonna do what they want with it, including toss it right in the garbage — but being loud about it likely crossed the line. What was actually said? That is likely to be the problem, as I’m having trouble imagining that it wasn’t some level of hostile toward the literature-leaver’s faith.

      That said, I would not consider the literature-leaving to be appropriate except in select circumstances, such as a “take a book, leave a book” shelf like my old job had. I would expect the literature-leaver to be spoken to about non-solicitation, and the literature-trasher to be spoken to about not openly disparaging people’s protected classes.

      1. OP*

        The things that were said were like “All of this is crap, this stupid religion ruined my life, nobody needs to read these lies, etc.”. Very hostile remarks. Not personally offensive cause I had no dog in the fight, but what they said could have been offensive to somebody else. You can hardly go to Walmart these days without getting religion thrown at you, so I’ve gotten good at tuning it all out. The angry coworker actually got more of my attention than the stupid literature did, but I wasn’t mad at her either, she obviously had a traumatizing experience with that group.

        I agree that by leaving the publications unattended, that coworker knew there was a risk of them going in the trash.

        There was a general non-solicitation policy, for selling things, but nothing for passively leaving reading material around. The upset coworker probably should have made an official complaint and got clarification on whether or not this was acceptable.

        Appreciate everyone’s input!

    7. Policy Wonk*

      Does your employer have a policy on leaving info unrelated to work in these areas? Where I work you could probably leave stuff like that in the break room, but not a public area (so not the restroom lounge if it is available to the public.) If there is no policy, or stuff is permitted, coworker 1 gets to leave her literature. And coworker 2 can pick it up and toss it in the trash.

      But the vocal screed against the proselytizing literature is just as bad as proselytizing itself (and in my opinion could be considered proselytizing for coworker 2’s point of view.) Coworker 2 is in the wrong here for the verbal activities and should be counseled about the behavior.

  146. GivingUp*

    I can’t take this anymore.

    I’m getting nowhere with my job hunt over the past two years. I’ve paid people to review my resumes/cover letters, had numerous contacts in companies, years of high-profile work experience, got new degrees and certifications, applied down a level on jobs, applied up a level on jobs, tried online forums for contact making, reached out to friends, made sure I fit every requirement and more, but I still can’t get a single interview in all that time. Not one. I’ve taken to just totally switching up against Alison’s advice and reaching out aggressively 1-2 weeks after applying for status updates, just to try and freaking make contact. Not one reply yet, but it’s early days of the new strategy and frankly, I honestly don’t know what else to do.

    I’m so tired of “it’ll happen” and “just keep trying.” It’s been two years and hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars spent on nothing happening and my career is stagnating. I cannot accept going backwards and working for less than I do now. I already am way under paid in my industry and am crumbling under the financial pressure.

    So, outside of walking into a company and refusing to leave without a job, what else can I do anymore?

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      That’s a lot of effort and a lot of time to spend searching. Can you expand on what you’re looking for? If you’re in a tricky location or niche speciality, sometimes it can be really hard to find another job and you may have to expand your search.
      I do NOT recommend switching to an aggressive stance to try and freak out your contacts. Are any of these contacts friends or friendly colleagues who would give you an honest assessment of your applications? Maybe there’s something you’re missing on your resume.

      1. WellRed*

        Have you tried googling yourself to make sure there’s nothing alarming and erroneous? Like, a serial killer with the same name as you? Are you tailoring each cover letter? And why did you leave your last job? Have you made sure there isn’t an issue there?

        1. GivingUp*

          @WellRed Thanks for the reply! My first and last name are ridiculously common (think, John Smith), but even still there’s nothing online negative to find about me or someone with my name. I haven’t left my current job yet and am in great standing there, so I don’t see those as potential issues just now. And yes, I tailor each resume and cover letter cleanly.

          My only issue I can think of is that I’m very selective about what I apply for–only jobs with a strong connection to my career path and that I fit strongly as well. This decreases the amount of jobs I can apply for though since I’m not doing the scatter shot technique.

      2. GivingUp*

        Haha! No, there’s no attempt to freak out contacts, but I did once reach out a week and a half after applying to ask about hiring timelines, just to try and switch up my tactics. No response yet, but that’s no different than previous efforts.

    2. ferrina*

      Are you applying to the right jobs? I’d do some informational interviews and/or work with a career coach in my industry to make sure that the jobs I’m applying for line up with my skill set (something that can be difficult to assess sometimes).

      If you’re sure you’re applying to the right jobs- get someone in your industry to review your resume. Make sure that your phrasing is industry standard. Make sure you’re quantifying your achievements whenever possible (led projects that brought in $X in revenue, oversaw highest revenue driving project in 2019, etc.) Again, an informational interview can help you find out what the most impressive data points to include are.

      And stop getting degrees/certificates. In most industries these aren’t necessary (though there are exceptions) and in some they can actually hurt (Some of my friends in the legal field actually look down on paralegal certificates). Be picky about which you include- if someone lists a ton of degrees/certificates, I start wondering if they actually know what they are trying to do, or just being scattershot (again, there are industry exceptions).

      In general, stop trying to fit every requirement. Those are almost never a perfect match to the actual job. Instead, understand your strengths and how they might fit to a job. Quantify those strengths in your resume, then illustrate those strengths in your cover letter. Know yourself, know your industry, and know when you’re willing to walk away and try something new. Good luck!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry. It can be extremely frustrating to go through this when you’ve been trying so hard.

      You don’t say what field you’re trying to get into. Is it something with general weak demand or has had pandemic downturn? Because, if it is you might have to shift to something else for a time or look for adjacencies.

      Have you gotten to interview stage at all? If so, what happened?
      Is this a super competitive field? Does this field require some kind of specific background they want to see in order to get an “in?”

      It sounds like you’re doing everything you can here on the resume side, so I’m a bit confounded if you’re not moving to at least some interviews.

      Definitely “investigate yourself” to see if there is anything amiss people might come across on social media or Google. Bad reference perhaps? That is less likely if you haven’t gotten to interview stage (sometimes hiring managers may reach out to your Linkedin connections at former jobs pre-interview), so they definitely will look you up. It’s always possible they could be seeing something that gives pause.

      If none of those provide any insight, it might be something really specific to the industry you’re trying to get into, like maybe you need to start out lower or need an internship or something in order to be considered ? IDK?

      You might want to post on here next week with your question addressed specifically those who might work in that field. Post early!

  147. Zee*

    Any suggestions on how to (tactfully and briefly) explain in a cover letter why you want to leave your job after a short period of time? I know that why you’re leaving is something that would usually come up in an interview and not go in the letter, but I’m worried I won’t get to the interview stage because the short stint will look suspicious. I don’t want to leave it off because I have had some really major accomplishments in the few months I’ve been here, and it’s my first job with a “director” title, even though my previous job as a “manager” was actually higher-level.

    There are about 100 reasons I want to leave, but the biggest one is that my job was really misrepresented. Almost half of my time is spent on things that were not in the job posting, not discussed in any of the interviews, and not typical for this kind of role. The schedule was misrepresented too – I’ve had to come in on average one out of every 3 Saturdays, often with only 2 days’ notice, to help with programs that aren’t in my arena.

    1. ferrina*

      Normally I would avoid saying anything about leaving in a cover letter, because you want the cover letter to focus on why you’re interested in the new job. I’d start out by applying to jobs and simply not mentioning the short stint in the cover letter and see what happens. Might want to try it a few different ways and see which way gets the best results.

      If you have to mention it, I’d say it in the context of something that appeals to you about the new listing. “My passion is working on X – it was one of the reasons I took my current position, though unfortunately after I arrived X responsibilities were moved out of my department” or some such. Main thing you want to avoid is looking 1) annoyed or mad, and 2) looking incompetent or any implication that X was taken away from you specifically (as opposed to not needed by the company or moved out of your department).

  148. Anon for this*

    This feels like kind of a dumb question but I’m gonna give it a shot. How do you make friends with a member of the opposite sex at work without being misunderstood? I am female and work with a guy I really like and would like to get to know socially. I’m not attracted to him and I don’t see any evidence that he’s attracted to me, but he’s always been friendly and we vibe somehow. I think he has a partner, I’m single. We used to work in the same department but I transferred out recently when I got a promotion so we don’t work on projects together anymore. And I miss him. Do I just embrace the awkward and say something like “hey I’m not coming on to you but would you like to get coffee”? My office is super gossipy but I don’t really care about that, I just don’t want him to think I’m trying to date him. I have usually managed to make friends at every company I’ve worked for, some of who have been men, so my social skills are adequate (I can be awkward, I’m not a social butterfly, but I get by ok) but I’m kinda stumped on this one for some reason.

    1. Angstrom*

      Maybe start with a common food interest? “Hey, do you want to try the new Thai place for lunch? I’ve heard it’s good”. Lunch buddies are not unusual where I work.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      You don’t need to explicitly say “I’m not coming onto you.” Grabbing coffee or lunch during the work day is not a date and shouldn’t be interpreted as one.

      If you’re trying to hang out socially outside of work hours and want to make it clear it’s not a date, you can:
      -explicitly label it as friendship (“I’ve been looking for a friend to try that new schwarma place with, are you busy Saturday?”)
      -make your first ‘hangout’ a group activity: rally a few other friends or coworkers to do happy hour, include him in the plans, and let him know that he can bring his partner along too if he wants

      1. Snuck*

        All of this. Upvote!

        Just send an email “Hey Bob, got time for a coffee? I’d love to hear how things are going since I left.” Is all it needs to be.

    3. ferrina*

      I don’t think you should say “I’m not coming on to you.” That assumes that it would be normal for him to think that you were coming on to him- and that really shouldn’t be a normal expectation.
      So yeah, just grab coffee with him. I (female) have plenty of guy friends that I grab coffee with as well as girl friends. The biggest thing is to treat it as normal (because it is) and don’t get embarrassed. If someone makes a comment about you dating, return awkward to sender- “what a weird comment!”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I think there’s a difference between “Would you like to get coffee?” and “Want to get some coffee?” or “I could use a coffee break. What about you?” Really try to sound as casual about it as you can (and invite other people, too?). Some guys will read nonsense into things no matter what you do, but I would 100% not say “I’m not coming on to you but.” Just treat it as casually and non-romantic as you want it to be perceived.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Are you just interested in a workplace friendship, or are you looking to broaden your social circle? If the former, the suggestion for coffee works for me. If the latter, I’d suggest getting [drinks/pizza/xx] after work some day and specifically include the partner in the invite.

  149. Vancity*

    My husband is doing this right now! A big part of why he left was the toll the job was taking on his mental health, so while he is very actively job searching, he’s also taking time every day to do things that bring him joy. So most days he wakes up with me, spends the morning job searching, takes the dog on a walk, and then spends the afternoon on his hobby. Although of course I hope he finds a new job soon, he’s so much more pleasant to be around then he has been the last few months. Anyways, job search, but also take care of yourself, is what I’m saying

  150. Becky*

    I work in community pharmacy, have done for 8 years, but I’m still in the same position I was when I joined so I’ve decided to leave and move to hospital pharmacy (NHS here in the UK).
    I had an interview for a job I would just die to get! Assistant technical officer in the production unit, making up chemotherapy and IV antibiotics & no patient interaction! Didn’t get the job as there were people with hospital experience, but she said I had a great interview and would welcome another application from me with open arms. Lo and behold another position for the same post comes up so I emailed her asking if she thought it was worth me applying or if hospital experience was always going to be preferred.
    She said hospital experience wasn’t necessary, but the experience does allow people to give more information and detail in their answers – which is what happened when we interviewed.
    There was a question something along the lines of ‘what do I know about the role’ and thinking back I must have took the question in the wrong direction in an attempt to sell myself. I’m taking her feedback to mean there was something hospital/pharmacy production related that I left out that could have been really helpful. I’ve applied for the second post and hopefully I’m lucky to get selected to interview again.
    Long shot I know since this site is primarily not-UK based but I’m trying to be as resourceful as I can to help me bag this job. But does anyone have any idea what they might be looking for? Or what I can do to prove I know about this role even though I’ve no experience? I’ve watched YouTube video after video about production pharmacy but there’s not a lot of UK ones, mostly USA, which could end up being different.

    No worries if no-one has any ideas, just shooting my shot :)

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Do you think it’s possible that when the interviewer asked you “what do you know about the role,” they were simply trying to gauge your interest in the job/make sure you were both on the same page about what the role entailed? I think I’ve read somewhere here that Alison asks this question sometimes to get a temperature check from someone and make sure they’re interested in this job specifically. And it’s clear that you are very interested in this job!

      1. Becky*

        That’s a good point, it could well have been, yes. I think because I’d never had experience of that role before I took it as a ‘I know it’s different to what I do at the moment but here’s a list of things I read in the job description that I am currently doing’ in an attempt to show how I can already do a lot since full training is being given. When maybe I should have shown that I’ve done my research and talked about what I would be doing rather than what I can already do.

        I’ve reapplied for the second post, adding a little more to my supporting information about how I’ve applied before and although unsuccessful, meeting the team/taking the tour/hearing about the role has reaffirmed how much I want to work there. Which I know they’ll see. So hopefully that’ll help towards them wondering about my interest!

    2. Snuck*

      I imagine working in a community pharmacy is quite different to a hospital one. Community pharmacy has a lot of paperwork, and a ‘first come, first served’ approach usually?

      Hospitals have some fairly strict hierarchies, with all manner of politics at play sometimes? Certain doctors might things in particular ways, or it might be important to rush one doctor’s work over another’s without letting anyone outside the pharmacy in on the drama? Or chemo might be super time sensitive and cannot be run late, and you might need to manage multiple demands in a short time frame.

      Also the hospital processes would be different obviously, with different computer systems, different approval processes, probably different strengths and preparations of medications. Maybe find a hospital pharmacist if you can to talk you through some of this? (Ask on a FB group for Pharmacists in the UK if anyone works in a hospital pharmacy maybe for a chat?)

      It sounds like this role could be keen to have people with some compounding experience as well? If that’s something you have maybe sell that a little more?

      1. Becky*

        Yes they’re definitely very different, I actually am not a qualified dispenser at my pharmacy, which I didn’t see as an issue for this interview since they said they want me to do the qualification. I figured with the computer systems being brand new and me not having any experience they could mould me to exactly how they wanted and I’d have no bad habits. Though I failed to say that part to them.

        That’s a good idea though finding a pharmacist to offer me some advice. It would have to be someone who has worked in the production department though, it’s a completely different place again even compared to inpatient/outpatient pharmacy. There’s no patient interaction at all and they probably barely see other department members other than when medication is delivered/collected.

        Thank you for the suggestion though, I’m going to go look!

      2. MiloSpiral*

        Yeah, Becky, maybe an informational interview with a hospital pharmacist would be a good part of your research for this job! Just to get a feel for how the work differs from what you do currently. That way you can also evaluate if it sounds like the kind of work you’d like to do, too. You already said that this job is really interesting to you, and I believe it, but an informational interview about the hospital pharmacy field in general could give you some good information about how it differs from your current field. There might be standards or cultural practices you don’t know about that could either make you a lot happier at work or really not jive with your workstyle.

  151. B*

    I am a little under a month into a new job and so far I’m loving it, but I have terrible workplace anxiety.

    I find myself struggling when I have “free time” during the work day because I don’t necessarily know what needs to be done (I complete projects successfully when assigned).

    I feel like I’m clinging to my boss for being proactive and asking for work to do, but I feel like avoiding her and just not working is much worse – any advice.

    More context – I’m not asking her to walk me through the work, merely looking for projects.

    I’m looking for any advice on what to do in this situation!

    1. urguncle*

      Read through documentation! I used to read through support tickets that came in, read Slack threads in the dedicated team channel, read through our wiki, just sit and read through documentation that existed. I learn really well from reading, so it made me catch on a lot quicker to how things worked and I was able to retain a lot of those situations when either someone else asked the same question or when I ran into a similar issue myself.

    2. Zee*

      Ask her about projects or tasks that aren’t urgent and can be done a little at a time, like organizing files or writing up documentation.

      I had a job where I had very little to do… I got permission to ask other managers in adjacent departments if they needed help with any projects. Depending on how your company/org is structured, that may or may not be another option.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        +1. If you can, working with other departments is a great way to learn about the organization as a whole and could also inform your own work when you come back to it. (I assume you’re in a junior position.) It’s also a great way to ingratiate yourself to your colleagues. At one of my last jobs, my work was very seasonal, and during my department’s slow season I would often help departments with other projects, simply because I had the time and I was curious about how their departments worked. I quickly became known as a jack-of-all-trades and someone who was very willing to help out in a pinch, which curried a lot of favor. (If you are able to go this route, you do want to be careful to set boundaries, though–some people may try to push you to help them out when you really don’t have time, and you need to be clear with them that you can’t!)

    3. ferrina*

      Send your boss a quick message saying that you have availability if there’s anything you can help with. When you can, try to flag it for your boss in advance (“hey, it looks like next week will be pretty quiet if there’s anything I can help with!”). urguncle’s suggestion of reading through documentation is spot on.
      At just a month in, this feels pretty normal. My work is very project-based with about a 3-month lifecycle for projects, and I’m usually not surprised when new staff have down time. As long as you’re proactive in communicating with your boss about it, it’s not an issue.

    4. PollyQ*

      1) Less than a month is still VERY new. Any sort of mental tips or processes you can do within yourself to try to stay calm are probably going to be your best bet.

      2) In addition to asking your boss for work, which is totally fine and normal, you can also tell her you’re having trouble figuring out what to do next when you’re not busy and if she has any tips for that particular issue.

  152. ChronicDaycareIck*

    Work/child sickness advice welcome! My 2 year old has been sick constantly (and so have the rest of us) since she started at a daycare center in January(she was previously with family). Not COvID yet, thankfully, but we’re now on our 3rd round of the stomach flu in 2 months, multiple colds, it’s been horrible. I’d love folks perspective on how you’ve handled this while working. Our pto is going fast. I’m not super happy with my job, so I’m even considering quitting and taking a few months before finding another to give us a break. Does this ever get better? Does an in home vs. daycare center help at all? Would we just start this rollercoaster when I went back to work again? Thanks!

    1. ferrina*

      Former daycare worker here! Daycare sniffles are super normal. The colds are really regular- you’ll find that that will happen any time they start at a new school (side note: most teachers get them for their first couple years too- I had a constant cold my first year. Then repeated the process when I switched to another school). If your kid can be sent to school, get a negative Covid test and send them (obviously it’s good for them and the other kids if you could keep them home, but since most of us have PTO considerations, send them in).
      Stomach bug shouldn’t be that common- usually that’s tied back to food poisoning. Report all cases to the daycare, and ask your kid’s teachers to supervise her hand washing and really make sure she’s washing them. Make sure you are keeping your hot foods hot and cold foods cold at home. If something is questionable, just save it for the adults. (common culprits are cooked potatoes and chopped melon).

      It does get better. Her immune system will get stronger and she’ll get better at hygiene (around 4 or 5 they start properly washing their hands) and the diseases will lessen in intensity and frequency. In-home can be better, since there’s usually less kids (hence less disease vectors). Though it’s not enough of a difference that I would recommend switching if you’re otherwise happy with your daycare (go with the daycare that does best with your kid- the kid can ride out the colds but riding out a bad teacher is way worse).
      Good luck!

      1. ChronicDaycareIck*

        Thanks so much! I appreciate your perspective. I’ll definitely bring up hand washing with the center, my daughter is a finger chewer and I think that’s making it worse than it could be otherwise.

    2. Double A*

      My daughter has been getting a cold a month since she started daycare in September. She hadn’t been sick the whole pandemic prior. So far it’s just colds, no Covid. The good news is that while the frequency is not slowing down, the duration is, and she’s able to miss fewer days each time it seems.

      Good luck! I feel your pain.

    3. Snuck*

      Maybe look at the daycare illness policy? And then talk to some ‘mummy friends’ and find out what their policies are. Some places might have a green snot is ok! Policy. And others might say “no green snot, no fever for 24hrs”. This second one is going to do a better job of keeping the plague at bay.

      If your child has had gastro three times in two months, and it’s likely they caught it at childcare, I’d be having a very good look at their policies. This is actually (in Australia at least) reportable, and the child care should be shut down and deep cleaned, all staff rotated off until confirmed not contagious, and all kids sent home at first sign of illness. If it’s cycling through over and over (in Australia at least) the daycare has standards and responsibilities to clear it out. Has the child seen a GP? Is it possible it’s something else though? Guardia etc?

      All the colds are good immune building, but there can also come a point where the fatigue gets too much for everyone.

    4. J.B.*

      The first two winters were like that unfortunately with both my kids. Their rates of illnesses slowed down at 3 :(

    5. allathian*

      I was at home with my son until he was 2. Before he started daycare, he’d had one cold at 6 months, otherwise all his visits to the doctor were to confirm he was developing as he should. When he started daycare, he got sick so often that I was almost as much at home with him as at work. Things got easier as he got older, but I’ll never forget that first winter in daycare…

  153. The Mysterious M*

    I just filled out my annual self-evaluation and I’m wondering, as I always do during this exercise, what’s the point? My manager finally convinced me to actually give myself good scores so he has something to work with for my raise (lol) so I do that. The only thing I find useful in it is maybe listing my accomplishments for the past year and my goals for the future year. The rest of it, I don’t get why I’m scoring myself on these things. Isn’t that my boss’s job?

    1. La Donna*

      It’s the employee’s job to rate their performance over the year, and the manager adds comments to support or perhaps disagree.

    2. Snuck*

      I thought the employee scored themselves (and the manager does the same) so there is a series of conversations that can be entered – if the manager and employee are aligned then the conversation is easy “we agree”, if there’s a gap there’s a chance for negotiation “I think you are higher, did you see when you did this? You are a star performer!” And if the employee is underperforming and admits it then it’s easier to have the “hrm, how do we improve this?” Chat because everyone is admitting the elephant in the room (that there’s a problem). It’s a chance to review and reflect on your own efforts, and share how you think you’ve gone. Self reflection is good!

    3. Anon for This*

      The idea here is to look for a mismatch in perspectives between the boss and the employee. I am often surprised when someone I see as a mediocre employee self -scores at the highest levels. Clearly they have the self-image that they are a rock star. Trying to reconcile this is challenging. (I have heard more than once that I just don’t like them and am not fair!)

      The other issue is if someone is a really good employee but self-scores as average. It sounds like you fall into this category. When you are faced with scoring yourself, look at your list of accomplishments for the past year and score that person as if it wasn’t you. Wow, The Mysterious M got a lot done this year – let’s give them a 9 (of 10) for this section. Then bring that, your list of accomplishments and your goals for the next year to your boss.

      1. Clisby*

        Also, your boss likely doesn’t carry around a mental list of all your accomplishments, with details. She should have the big picture, but this is a chance for the employee to be sure the boss doesn’t overlook anything.

  154. Cj*

    I think it’s fine that posted this on the work thread, but I think it is also appropriate for the Saturday / Sunday thread. You might get more responses there because it’s generally a much shorter thread.

    1. Cj*

      I’m not sure how this ended up here. I meant it for the retirement question posted around 11:41 this morning.

  155. Thea*

    I started a new job in the beginning of the pandemic and have been working remotely the entire time. It’s a pretty collaborative office with about 200 employees and I have met most of them via Zoom. Last week we returned to the office and I have encountered a problem I wasn’t ready for: I have no idea who anyone is. People greet me in the hallways and talk about how great it is to see each other in real life and they ask about my family and my house and my horse and I don’t have the faintest idea on how to just… stop them and ask them their name? The first couple of days I tried to introduce myself to get their name in return, but I feel really awkward doing that when they all seem to know my name already. I’m really tempted to just pretend I know who everyone is and hope that it will sort itself out somehow, except I can see this getting really strange a few years down the line when I still won’t know who anyone is…

    So, for those of you who have already gone back to the office: has anyone dealt with the same thing? How did you manage to put name and face together on all those strangers?

    1. ferrina*

      Oh my goodness, you’re fine. Even pre-pandemic I worked at a company with a bunch of remote workers. When we gathered, I’d have to admit that I don’t know who folks are when I see them off camera. A few people might be surprised, but no one should hold it against you.

      So just say “Hey, I’m sorry, I’m having an awful time recognizing folks off camera! Help me out- what’s your name?”

      1. Thea*

        It makes so much sense that I’m overthinking this! I’ve been really stressed out about having to interact with what basically feels like strangers when I haven’t even met my best friends indoors yet. Thank you for this suggestion, I’ll definitely use it!

      2. Snuck*

        Yup. I have a mild form of prosopagnosia – face blindness. I recognise most people by their voice and hair (heaven help me if you change your hairstyle and get a cold!), and the context of where I am running into them. Just own it “Oh I’m sorry, you look so different in real life, and everyone does! I feel like I’m in my first days in a new office, please forgive, are you *mad guess name*?” And then laugh if you get it wrong, and let them correct you. They’ll be forgiving twice ;)

    2. Peter*

      I keep doing this even with people I knew before lockdown.

      I’m able to apologise and blame it partly on me being half-blind wearing masks and also that if people don’t come in boxes on a screen with a name below then I don’t know who they are.

      In the UK I’m able to make a joke about wanting everyone to be on Celebrity Squares and people have been understanding. The worst part is I’m a volunteer Cub leader and I keep calling one child by his little brother’s name – that’s embarrassing for me!

      Anyway, you’re not alone.

  156. Flyaway*

    Does anyone have any tips or resources on how to roll over one’s 401k, make sure there’s not a lapse in healthcare coverage, etc.? After 2 years of looking, I finally got offered a new position with a huge pay increase and I’m incredibly excited! But now I have a short time to figure out how to get all the finances in order and there will only be a day between the two jobs where I wouldn’t technically be employed (current job works weekends so I’d be finishing on a Sat. and then start new place the following Mon. but my “weekend” includes Sat. so I’d have a couple days off before starting).

    1. Lizy*

      Typically your OldJob healthcare coverage will be good through the end of the month, and New Job will start beginning of next month.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      When I had to rollover my 401k, I just called the company the 401k was with and they helped with that. It was easy and quick.

    3. CatCat*

      Wherever you are rolling the 401k over should be able to help you. It’s a pretty easy process in my experience. So if you’re rolling your for 401k into an IRA, the company that holds to IRA should have FAQs and a phone number or web chat line for help!

      You could go to healthcare.gov to find insurance if you’re looking a potentially big lapse in insurance coverage (like if your new employer has a long waiting period). COBRA is also an option and you have 60 days to enroll and that’s retroactive. So if you’re new insurance would kick in in 20 days at NewJob, you might just go without insurance and if something happens to you and day 19, get treated, and then enroll in COBRA. COBRA coverage is usually pretty expensive so you’d sort of be banking on not breaking your leg within the next 20 days in my example time period.

    4. J.B.*

      In the US there is typically a form your current employer will give you confirming the end date of health insurance that may also be the form to elect Cobra. But you have a certain amount of time to put in for cobra coverage so hang onto the form, if there is a month gap you can play the odds of sending it in when you need it.

  157. TheBeanMustMoveOn*

    I am ridiculously bad at maintaining relationships with people.
    But I’m in need of some references, I have two lined up somehow, but the third one is someone I haven’t talked to in about a year. We had a professional relationship, when we worked together but not a personal one. So I need some advice on how to ask for a reference. Do I just jump in the ask? Try to make small talk through email?
    What do other people do?
    Thanks!

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      I usually start off a little chatty (here’s my generic news, what is yours?) and then ask if they’re willing to be a reference. I also include “I’m happy to send my resume or other information if you’d like me to refresh your memory” but honestly a year is nothing! My references are about 8 years old at this point and it’s kind of embarrassing to check in with them.

    2. Zee*

      Honestly, this is pretty common. If someone I worked with years ago but didn’t really keep in touch with emailed me for a reference, I’d say yes (assuming it was someone I could actually give a good reference for). A year is barely any time to pass, in my opinion.

      When I have to ask someone for a reference, I usually say something like this…
      “Hey! How’s it going? How’s [your kids, big project they were leading at work, etc. – something specific to them]?
      I’m currently job hunting, and I was wondering if I could use you as a reference? If not, no worries!”

  158. Sheldon Cooper*

    My office has been in person with an optional hybrid schedule (3 in/2 WFH) since last summer. About 3/4 of staff take advantage of it.

    I recently filled a supervisor position with an internal hire. This person was formerly an individual contributor under another manger. My new supervisor has chosen to not have his children in daycare on the days we normally WFH (there’s no company policy on this), and we’re butting heads. There are periodically times that he needs to be available those days (off site training that’s only offered those days, training period for a new hire, etc.) and he has no backup plans for childcare.

    Am I being unreasonable in expecting him to be available on his work days?

    1. Snuck*

      Nope. WFH is supposed to be working. Not doing childcare.

      It’s different if your kids are sent home for an isolation reason and you are juggling them for a week or two, but to have this as the regular plan doesn’t work.

      Don’t make it about the kids.. make it about the performance.

      “Mike, when there’s an escalation call I need you available to take that call immediately, not delay it several hours.”
      “Mike, these trainings are set for these days, they cannot be moved around. Our requirement is that you maintain this certification and the training is on these days. Please attend.”
      “Mike your role includes training staff, and this requires you to be in the office generally every day for a few weeks after a new staff member joins the team.”
      “Mike your job role isn’t suitable to a permanent WFH schedule of three days rostered at home. Generally we can accommodate this many weeks, but you will need to be available for off site training and events, you will need to be in the office for additional days some weeks to train new hires, and you are expected to be available at all times between 8 and 5 for escalations, queries and so forth. If you feel you cannot work the expected hours could we discuss your role going forward? Maybe you’d prefer to return to your previous role, and another person who has more availability and flexibility can perform this supervisory role?”

      1. Snuck*

        Another thought… if “Mike” returns to his previous role make sure it’s very understood what his working hours are and the performance expectations there. Don’t move him back without that being very crystal clear, and make sure the new manager is well aware of this.

        Another idea is to change his working hours – see if he wants to reduce to two days a week/ 0.4 FTE?

        (I’m a really flexible manager, at least I like to think I am, but I have also been burnt by a wiiiiide range of people and seen a broad spectrum of human behaviour over the years. I will always give the basic level of trust and ‘assume we are all adults’ until proven otherwise, but sadly humans have often proven otherwise. I make sure that everything is well documented, above board, and transparent every step of the way. This means I have some incredibly loyal staff too though, as they know they are solid every step of the way.)

    2. PollyQ*

      I agree with everything Snuck says, and I also think this is a great time to push upward or through HR to formalize a policy that, in general, you need to have childcare when you are WFH. (With reasonable exceptions for child’s illness or daycare/school shutdowns).

  159. Hunnybee*

    I had this whole thing written up, but considering the new rules I’ll keep it short and sweet:

    I’m completely, absolutely, burned out. All of the things. Heart racing at 3 a.m., the whole shabang.

    Should I tell my manager about my burnout (who is a nice guy, but I think would have zero patience for personal stuff)? Or is it better just to quit and take some TIME and trust that I’ll get something else again after I’ve taken the time I needed?

    1. pancakes*

      Heart racing at 3 am sounds more like anxiety than burn-out to me.

      I don’t see a good reason to tell your manager unless and until you want to ask them for something in particular – re-balancing your workload and taking some things off your plate, for example, or changing your schedule, or taking some time off. If you would only be telling them you’re struggling I’m not clear on what sort of response you’re expecting.

  160. Lady_Lessa*

    I would talk to your manager and see what kind of response that you get first.

    Then, if that isn’t enough, check your finances to see if you can quit and manage until you have another job.

    My reasoning is that if you just quit, you have eliminated the chance that your boss will be a nice guy without trying it.

  161. OnceAPastor*

    Former clergy – how do you translate congregational clergy work into nonprofit leadership?

    1. Anon for This*

      Focus on the business aspects of what you did. Managed an operational budget of X. Supervised Y number of employees. Served a client base of Z parishioners. Oversaw xx number of programs including… food pantry? children’s Sunday school? I’d particularly emphasize whatever programs are tied to the mission of the nonprofit you are applying to. Good luck!

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      Concentrate on what you did to manage programs and people.
      What I am seeing (Catholic church) is that my pastor is good with the liturgical stuff, but management not so good. From what I’ve heard and seen, I’d run the other way in my world.

  162. Rectilinear Propagation*

    Any advice on getting support services for a toddler with developmental delays?

    We’ve been part of the lucky few to have had a daycare that hasn’t had a bunch of closures/exposures to COVID-19. Unfortunately, our toddler is struggling and part of that is definitely her speech delay. The school district has a Developmental Pre-K program but it’s 1) only half a day and 2) they (like everyone else) is dropping mask mandates. Sending her to both daycare and the school would not only increase the number of people she spends time around indoors, she’d be around unmasked people at the school.

    Are developmental daycares even a thing? Everything I’ve found so far is a only for part of the day. Should I be looking for a different solution?

    1. Rectilinear Propagation*

      I am so sorry, this was for the general thread!

      I don’t know how to delete this, my apologies Allison!

    2. Snuck*

      This is probably a really local to your area/state thing. I’m in Western Australia and have two children with different developmental delays – both with delayed speech but for different reasons.

      I found local playgroups that have developmental delay as a focus, and then was able to speak to lots of other parents and gradually find local services. Maybe ring your local Autism association (even if you don’t suspect Autism) and ask for a place to start? Also local facebook groups can be good for connection.

      If your child has Apraxia of Speech or other sound formation issues then masks might be compounding the issue as they may not be able to regularly see the sound formation in other people’s movements. I’m running both my sons through the local school, one with mid level complex health, with COVID finally free in WA and a couple of thousand cases a day at long last (not that it was longed for!) – I know it’s going to be a bumpy ride, but we’re also having to face this beast down. Maybe weigh up the risk of long term speech delay and impacts on social and emotional development vs COVID too (something parents of ‘average’ kids never have to debate on top of all the other debates we have with ourselves as parents! So many additional debates for additional needs parents!).

      Your speech therapist should also be able to refer you to support networks. If you don’t have one because your child is not yet school age consider approaching your local child development service or public hospital (talk to the social worker) about accessing services.

    3. Diatryma*

      My child goes to an inclusive daycare run by a nonprofit that primarily serves disabled people. We like it because I know a lot of their clients (used to work in the school district with disabled young adults, and the organization was one option for support of various types) and hey, nonprofit. I have no idea what number of daycare clients are disabled, but they’re set up to be flexible and inclusive of a variety of disabilities.

      So yeah, they exist, and maybe checking with the local dayhabs and such would be a good starting point.

  163. My dog Bob*

    Pre-pandemic, our import company’s boss/owner/manager would attend various international trade events every year and bring one or two or all us employees with him (we’re a small company, 5-6 people). The last event I attended was in March 2020, just pre-pandemic. There were some small events held last year that we didn’t attend, but now the trade shows are blooming.

    I am scheduled to attend an upcoming event with him, under the condition that I pay for airfare while he will cover hotel accommodation. I agreed, as I have so many points on my credit card that I could cover the airfare without paying a dime. I’m not crazy about this payment arrangement, but whatever…

    Now, I just found out that there will be another event held extremely near in location to the event I’m attending, within days of each other. I’m fairly certain my boss is going to both events, based on the flight itinerary he shared with me. I was not invited to go to this second event. It has just been announced in trade journals, but I suspect he had advanced notice of it.

    I’d really like to attend this event, it’s a big learning experience and it gives me (or anyone, really) credibility in our industry and heck, I’ll pay for the hotel room myself. I’ve often told him in the past, in our teapot industry, if people wanted to just sell teapots, they could get a job at a department store (I’m not knocking dept store employees, I worked in one for a long time). We work in imports for precisely these opportunities of travel and a chance to smell the tea leaves, as it were.

    I’m a bit disappointed – but am I acting selfish and entitled?

    1. acmx*

      Are these events only open to companies or can you sign up for them as an individual? Have you asked your boss if you can attend?

      1. My dog Bob*

        I have not had a chance to ask him about the other event as it was officially announced on a Friday afternoon. I will ask him, but I strongly suspect he’ll say no.

        These are industry-only events, happening in other countries…I can certainly sign up on my own, but I’d absolutely need to clear it with him first. It would be very awkward if he saw me there and I didn’t run it by him first. Especially since we are attending ANOTHER event together a few days later.

        1. acmx*

          Ah, ok. The few conferences I’ve attended were either representing my employer (so working) or attending as an individual and I wouldn’t need permission to attend or the conference was for companies only.

    2. Snuck*

      It might be that the company isn’t going to fund your attendance at the second one (it sounds like it was announced after the first was booked/agreed to?) and your boss might be embarrassed about all this?

      Why not just approach him, and say something like “Hey Bob, I see there’s another one a few days later in Next Town, how about we stay on for a few extra days and do that one too? I’d like to experience it, and we can probably swing the costs if we change our hotels to a week rate instead of a few days so the cost is lower… what do you think?” And put that elephant out into the room.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Ask! Present the situation in a logical and reasonable manner. But be prepared if he says no, at least this year.

        Possibly, he thought it would be too long, or maybe he wants you back in the office. Or, it could be a cost issue this year. But you’ll never know if you don’t ask.

  164. Cats on a Bench*

    I have a question for my son who is a freshman in college. He wants to apply for this internship over the summer, which I fully support even though it’s getting kinda late for doing that. Anyway, he’s putting his resume together and wants to know what to do with the work experience section. He’s only ever worked in fast food service, but the internship he’s applying for is in a technical field completely unrelated to food service. Does he just put down his education and what he’s studying, any relevant projects he’s worked on and leave the work history off or should he include it? In high school, he attended a few college run summer camps for high schoolers specifically geared toward this technical field. Should he put those experiences on the resume? Under what kind of heading? Not sure how a resume for a student works since he really has very little experience at anything aside from going to school.

    1. Snuck*

      I’ll let others weigh in, but if I was reading a resume of someone in this position I’d be interested in his fast food work – depending where it was and how long he was there. McDonalds (in Australia at least) has rather high expectations and a fast paced environment – anyone who can stick that out (or KFC etc) is someone who I know probably has some reasonable understanding of work, how to get help when needed, how to follow processes etc. Don’t beat it home hard, but don’t hide it either. It’s also good to see he’s been doing something, not nothing…

      As for the summer camps – if they were in the last five years you could have a ‘hobbies interests’ area and list the camp “Young Engineers Camp Canberra, 2018, 2019, 2020” style. Again it gives them an idea this has been an interest for a long time, and gives the something to talk about in an interview too.

      It won’t hurt. Don’t pad out a resume, but if the resume is incredibly light on don’t remove things that can show your grit, professional experience and a long term interest in the field.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      For someone that age, I would like to see that they have some work experience, even if it was a part time high school job. I say leave it on.
      No one expects something like that to be related to what they’re studying in college, but it does show things like work ethic, responsibility, taking direction, working with the public, etc.

      If he does put them on the resume, he should be prepared to discuss at least one thing he learned about his experience at the job. For sure, a 16 year old learns a lot about customer service if they work fast food.

      1. Clisby*

        Yeah, my son worked last summer in a seasonal job in a tourist-heavy area of Charleston, SC. I was describing to him how he could describe the work in a way to emphasize general work skills. I said, “So you might tell them what you learned from working with the public.” He said, “I learned that the public sucks.”

    3. Anon for This*

      Yes, please include his work experience – this is something I look for in an intern. Your son already knows about being on time, about the office hierarchy, etc. It’s a big plus. I prefer an intern from a less-well-known school and work experience to a kid from an Ivy who has never worked anywhere. And yes, include the summer camps, though be clear he isn’t confusing them with work experience. Should be mentioned in the same way you might note that you speak a foreign language.

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