coworker asked to borrow money, changing into pajamas as soon as you get home, and more

by Alison Green on October 30, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Should managers have to train professionals on basic computer skills?

We have an ongoing debate in my office – is a manager responsible for training an employee on non-essential but generally required skills? For example, my partner and I provide our new attorneys training in how our office operates, the applicable legal fields we cover, legal updates, and generally how to be an attorney. We always provide very detailed training on how to be an attorney in our office and our nuanced procedures.

Where we have a difference of opinion on training is on essential technologies that an attorney needs to use but are not attorney-related. For example, Microsoft Office, Zoom, Teams, using a digital calendar, etc. Not any technology related to our field, but just ones the general office-working population uses these days. This also includes basic tasks related to them like setting up your computer to turn on a camera, hiding a line in Excel, or troubleshooting a printer paper jam.

I refuse to teach new attorneys these technologies as they are basic to any working environment, and they have a vast amount of schooling where they should have likely learned most of it. However, my partner is adamant that we should be providing them training and walking them through these basic things. If they have tried troubleshooting and still have questions, I will answer. I do not apply this same expectation to our support staff who have not had as much schooling or office experience. Is it reasonable to expect high level employees to figure these things out on their own? (I will also note that my frustration also comes from the fact that it is only ever men younger than me who must be walked through these tasks.)

A lot of people don’t learn that stuff in college, depending on what they’re studying. But it’s reasonable to ask them to try googling the answer first — most of what you described is very google-able by anyone with a bit of resourcefulness  — and to tell them to only come to you if they’re still having trouble after that. And if someone has a lot of questions in a particular area, get them set up with formal training (purchased by your office, but not run by you personally) in whatever the program is.

I’m not blind to the gender component of this, though, and that does make it grate more. I’m curious whether your partner is male and, if so, whether you find these younger men go to him with questions at the same rate as they come to you. If not, and instead they’re specifically coming to the woman for admin help, that’s an issue.

2. My coworker asked to borrow money

A coworker, who I interact with occasionally for work-related issues, unexpectedly asked to borrow money. The amount was not substantial (about 25% of the minimum monthly wage here), but I felt uncomfortable with the request since we are not close and have only professional interactions. We work in IT and our salaries are way above the minimum.

He reached out to me via a video call and asked for the loan, promising to repay me by the next paycheck in two weeks. I declined, explaining that I don’t lend money to anyone, whether friends or family. He was understanding and we made some small talk before ending the call.

Should I raise this with my manager or HR? Or should I just brush it aside for now and do it just in case he asks for money again?

Someone you only occasionally interact with set up a video call specifically to ask to borrow money? And they wanted 25% of the monthly minimum wage (which in the U.S. which would be at least a few hundred dollars)? That’s awfully bold.

I’d normally say that no, you don’t need to raise it with anyone — you declined, and he seems fine with that — but it’s such an odd request to make of someone who he doesn’t know well that I’m concerned you’re not the first or the only one he’s asking, and your manager might want to be aware. You don’t have to raise it, but if you do you could frame it as, “Since I don’t know him well, I wondered if I’m not the only one he’s asking and didn’t know if you’d want to be aware of that if so.”

3. Is it weird to change into pajamas as soon as I get home?

I teach middle school social studies and I have to be at work most days by 7 am. I love my students and my work, but by the end of the day, I’m exhausted. I usually get home by 4 pm and the first thing I do is put on my pajamas.

My husband works in senior management for a Fortune 500 company. He usually gets home well after I do, and he gets annoyed sometimes to get home and find me wearing pajamas. He sees it as a sign that I’m refusing to do anything else that day. He changes out of his suit into more casual clothes, but he doesn’t dress down to the point that he wouldn’t want to answer the door or run to the store. I’m curious if it’s truly unusual to put on pajamas as soon as you get home from work. What do your readers think?

This isn’t really a work question, but it’s an interesting one! I do think it’s somewhat unusual — which doesn’t mean it’s not understandable. I did have a roommate who did exactly this when we were all about 20, and it definitely read as … well, an unusual amount of homebody-ness, especially at that age. I can imagine your husband feeling like it’s condemning him a bit to that same level of homebody-ness … and like you’re sort of giving up on anything more interesting happening that day. Is there a compromise where you change into comfy lounge clothes but not actual pajamas until it’s closer to bedtime?

Alternately, if you want to have some fun with this, tomorrow you could be in club wear when he comes home and see how he reacts to that.

4. Should I tell my employer why I won’t come to the Christmas party?

I work as a professor’s student assistant in the department I also study in. (It’s minimum wage for about 5 hours a week). A few other students who work in similar positions and I were once again invited to join the department’s Christmas celebration as we are technically employees of the department.

Unlike the years before where it was just a small get-together where we had to bring our own food (which none of the professors attended), this time it’s supposed to be in a restaurant, but the invitation states outright that we have to pay for our meal ourselves.
While I can probably pay for a single meal out, it’s not without some pain, and I definitely would not have chosen a restaurant in this price class for myself. I know the same goes for the other students.

I could just politely decline, but would there be any merit in mentioning why I won’t attend? I don’t want to stir up trouble but I’m also disappointed that our professors, who are all very well tenured, are seemingly oblivious to the gap between our financial resources. The professor I work for has been gracious in the past, paying my part of the check when I joined meals during work-related outings, but I don’t want to rely on his personal kindness.

Yes, mention it! It doesn’t have to be in a “lodge a complaint” type way — it can just be, “Unfortunately it’s out of my budget.” Encourage any peers who feel the same as you to be candid about it too. It’s useful feedback.

If you do want to make more of a point about it, that would be okay too. In that case you could say, “I know the plans are already set for this year, but in case it’s helpful for know for next year, that price range is rough for us student workers to swing.”

5. Is it OK to return to my old team?

I left a role at Great Company for a new job for more money. It turned out to be a huge mistake; I HATED the new job. I asked my old boss if I could return after half a year. (We had a great working relationship.) Although there were no openings on Great Boss’s team as they had filled my role already, they recommended me for a different role back at Great Company, under a different manager. I’ve been back almost a year now, and Great Boss just let me know there is an opening on their team and asked if I’d like to return. I would love to work under Great Boss again. Current Boss is great, but I liked my previous team more and I miss Great Boss. I’m worried how this will be perceived, as I left Great Team at Great Company, then came back to Great Company, and now am potentially leaving Current Team. Is this unprofessional? I never should have left to begin with!

This isn’t unprofessional at all! You’ve been back a year, another position is opening up that you’re interested in, and you’re throwing your hat in the ring. There’s nothing wrong with that.

I suspect you’re worried about seeming flaky, like you’re jumping around too much and should have stayed where you were originally, but this kind of thing happens. People leave and try out new things and sometimes find their way back to where they started (and it doesn’t sound like this would even be the same role as your original one, although that would be okay too). You can be happy in your current job and with your current boss and still see that a move would fit you even better. (If you keep doing it annually, that could start to look weird after a certain point, but you’re not at that point.)

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  1. GeeseInFlight*

    OP3, I’m also a teacher (elementary) and after long/tough days I do often change into pajamas when I get home. It feels like a statement that I’ve earned a break. It’s also a nice way to set the work day aside and stop thinking about it, which can be a real problem for teachers. I am definitely a homebody, though, so maybe that’s why!

    1. Edwina*

      I change into “play clothes” the minute I get home. When I get inside the house after work, the clothes that felt fine all day at work and in the car on the way home, suddenly feel uncomfortable, and I need to change right away, and I especially need to get the bra off!

      The OP’s spouse saying that “He sees it as a sign that I’m refusing to do anything else that day” seems kind of extreme or harsh. Maybe OP can ask him if he can say more about what bothers him when OP is in pajamas after work. It sounds like OP ishoping to relax after teaching all day. I don’t see anything wrong with that, but it sounds like the spouse does.

      1. :)*

        100% feel you on the “play” clothes! In my culture as well as many other Asian cultures (and, I assume, many other cultures in general? Don’t have a ton of data on this) it is normal to have both inside clothes and outside clothes. Wearing my outside clothes for lounging around the house can feel a little gross or uncomfortable to me personally. Plus, my outside clothes are usually a little nicer and fancier than my inside clothes, so I don’t want to worry about getting food on my clothes while cooking with a nice shirt on or whatever.

        Often if I’m not feeling like changing twice or my day was very long I’ll skip to the pyjamas, so I really sympathize with OP here haha :P

        1. Baby Yoda*

          Agree on at-home clothes, but always have something nicer nearby if we decide to go out in the world and do something in the evening.

          1. Modesty Poncho*

            Yeah, it’s not like you can’t change back out of pajamas if you do want to go out to dinner!

            1. Starbuck*

              Ok but how common is that, really? I think most people put PJs on in the evening with the intention of staying in. He’s not out of line to read it that way. But LW doesn’t bother to clarify so we don’t know if that’s true for them. ARE they willing to dress back up? They don’t say!

              1. cee*

                I think changing back out of pajamas is somewhat common? I think it all depends on whether the OP means pajamas as in the actual clothes she will sleep in, or lounge wear.

                Any time I am in my home I change into lounge wear ( i.e sweatpants and a loose t shirt with no bra) I wouldn’t dream of going out to dinner in that kind of outfit and frequently change back into street clothes if I want to go out.

                In fact, its not uncommon for me to change 3-4 times a day. Like if I went to the store around noon, id put on street clothes, then change back into pajamas when I got home, then go back into street clothes if we went out to dinner, then in to my actual sleeping clothes right before bed.

                tbh I cant really imagine just like sitting in my house in khakis unless we had company. But you’re right OP doesn’t say whether they are willing to change again or not.

                1. Starbuck*

                  Sure but I don’t call my loungewear PJs, those are different things. If you texted a friend asking what they were up to or if they wanted to go out and their response was “I’ve got my PJs on” that means they’re not going out, lol

                2. DisgruntledPelican*

                  @Starbuck – I think a lot of people don’t see much of a difference between the two.

                3. Llama Identity Thief*

                  Seconding what Disgruntled Pecan says. Loungewear for me is a wider category than pajamas, but it’s usually “T-shirt and either gym shorts or pajama bottoms, depending on temperature.” And I will absolutely wear them after getting home from work and change out of them if a friend says “yo wanna head out and do X”?

              2. another Hero*

                I change into house clothes (which become my pajamas) anytime I’m getting home for more than an hour or so, and change back out when I’m leaving. On a weekend that could mean I change out of house clothes multiple times in a day.

        2. Cmdrshprd*

          I put my pajamas as soon as I get home also.

          but my pajamas are not explicit pajamas, they are a tshirt and athletic shorts. Often I can and do go out in that outfit if I need to run to the store quickly.

          1. Spider Plant Mom*

            Seconding this immediately changing into my “pajamas”, being sweats or yoga pants and a t-shirt, that I’d definitely would (and do!) pop out to the store or to walk the dog in! I guess the difference is my husband knows if he gets home and wants to go out I’ll get back into my Going Out clothes.

            Funny enough this is so routine in our house that the dog knows my going out clothes, and if he sees me changing into them will go lie in his kennel in anticipation of us leaving without him LOL

            1. The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon*

              For me, it’s putting on perfume. The dog knows I’m tarting myself up, heaves a judgmental sigh, and crates himself.

              1. Grimalkin*

                With me, it’s my purse. If I put my shoes on without grabbing my purse, my dog gets excited assuming she’s about to get a walk (and she’s usually right). If I grab my purse first, my dog sulks because she assumes I’m leaving without her (and she’s usually right).

              2. Rena*

                It’s the belt for my dog! As soon as the belt jingles when I pick up my pants, she’s in her crate.

            2. Peep*

              10000% comfy outfit. The moment I come home, it’s No Pants Time. Sometimes it turns into comfy pants time, sometimes it’s no pants… but even if I’m happy wearing jeans all the time, I don’t want to lounge in jeans / my outdoor clothes! I will absolutely put other clothes back on to go outside. It’s just indoor vs. outdoor. It took YEARS for my parents to get used to the concept of “comfy pants” as a level between outdoor clothing and sleepwear. Also just because “pajama pants” are called “pajama pants”… it doesn’t mean they’re only allowed to sleep in! My parents still can’t figure that out. I would never sleep in long pants. I lounge in them!

        3. Rook*

          Same! For me it’s just personal preference, not a cultural thing, but I have separate “inside” clothes that are comfy but not necessarily pajamas (old t-shirts and sweatpants/gym shorts, usually). Definitely sympathizing with OP, wearing my “outside” clothes all night would feel very weird lol

        4. K in Boston*

          Was going to comment asking if any chance that LW3 was from a different cultural background from their husband! Inside clothes vs. outside clothes are definitely “a thing” in certain cultures. My friend — who, like me, is also a child of immigrants living in the US — told me it took her a bit as an adult to settle on “in-between” clothes, clothes that are inside clothes but not the same ones you sleep in, which I’ve been trying to adopt!

          1. Limmy*

            Yeah this is definitely cultural. I wouldn’t dream of wearing sweatpants or leggings outside the house (except to go to the gym or swimming pool), so that’s quite a USA thing, I think.

        5. doreen*

          I have a question about inside clothes and outside clothes – what do you do if you have the sort of day I sometimes have where I’ve got multiple things to do and I’m in and out a few times ? Maybe I have an 8 am medical appointment and then I want to go to the library which opens at 10 and after lunch I’m going shopping and I’m going to go somewhere with my husband for dinner. I’d lose my mind changing every time I get home or leave the house – I think it would be 8 times in that example.

          1. Starbuck*

            To me that’s a 2 outfit day, the errand outfit and the dinner outfit. Errand outfit is like, leggings and a sweater or whatever is seasonal. Comfortable but looks nicer than sweats. Dinner, I make a plan to leave time to go home and change and put on whatever is nice enough for the venue.

            It’s different than ending your work day by taking off your work clothes.

          2. Ineffable Bastard*

            Not the person you asked, but s South-American with inside and outside clothes. Arriving home means changing the shoes for indoors flip-flops, washing hands, changing clothes.
            Medical appointment means a shower and clean clothes when arriving home. Depending on the medical setting, the clothes go direct to the washing machine. I was raised with an immunosupressed parent so I get that not everyone feels the same need.
            On a day with lots of going out like the one you described I would likely keep wearing my outside garments (except for the medical setting one) until the time for my nightly shower. I, however, tend to leave home less times/do more stuff when I go out so that helps. I can also put a polo shirt, sweatpants and socks at home, and change to jeans and add a sweater and shoes to get out, so I do not need to change everything.

          3. Allonge*

            Depends on how much time I will be spending at home between appointments. If it’s 30 minutes, no problem to keep the outdoor clothes on.

            If it’s a lot more, especially if I would be cooking / eating / cleaning during home time, I change, at least the the top half.

            I mean, even if it’s everything, it’s pants, top, bra off + sweatpants, t-shirt on (or hte other way around) – two minutes maximum, including laying down the outside clothes nicely. Worth it for the comfort.

        6. Alexander Graham Yell*

          My friend’s daughter called these “infits” and “outfits”.

          I have comfy loungewear that I wear at home that I can change out of and into outside clothes in just a couple of minutes (and when I WFH it’s likely I’ll do this 1-3 times/day), but once the PJs are on I’m not leaving the house unless it’s a literal emergency.

      2. duinath*

        I actually think changing into pyjamas immediately is worse if you’re the kind of person who, once the pyjamas are on, you’re in for the night. That’s the only way I can make husband’s attitude make sense, and I understand it. If your partner is just deciding every day to not do anything social (or even run errands) once they’re home from work, that can feel pretty limiting.

        That said, I myself also tend to change as soon as I’m in, purely for comfort. But I’m really never “in for the night” when I do; I get comfy but not so comfy I can’t put on a bra and some pants and be out the door.

        If LW feels as I do, they could clarify that for the husband, maybe he’s reading an intent there that doesn’t exist; if you want to go somewhere, just tell me. These pyjamas aren’t glued on.

        1. Diomedea Exulans*

          Also what’s wrong with being in for the night? I also work long hours and don’t go anywhere most days after I get home. I’m having a lot of in-house fun. I’m done with the gym earlier and go out only on weekends.

          1. KitKat*

            That’s perfectly fine for you, and perfectly wonderful if it also works for your spouse and family (or other co-habitators, if you have them). In this case, there’s clearly some mismatched expectations or communication divide.

        2. WheresMyPen*

          But maybe OP believes they are in for the night so putting on PJs is ok, but if they had to run to get milk or the husband asks if they want to go to the movies, presumably they’d get dressed again. I don’t see anything wrong with putting PJs on if you don’t have evening plans. If husband wants them to do more things in the evening he should say that and presumably OP would dress accordingly.

          1. Snow Globe*

            True, but it’s possible that the husband interprets the pajamas as if he is the one who will need to run to the store/pharmacy/whatever, if anything comes up, so he doesn’t ask and just does it. Or maybe he’d like to go out to eat once in a while, but doesn’t ask because it looks like LW has already decided that’s off the table.

              1. Lana Kane*

                Yeah, I feel like he sees it as a hard stop. I get it. I change into indoor clothes, as discussed above, because I don’t necessarily want to be in PJs right after work, hours from bedtime (especially if I’m cooking dinner, I don’t like doing that in PJs).

            2. Brain the Brian*

              Yes, this is an asker / guesser divide. LW thinks “Well, my husband can just ask me to change if anything comes up,” and the husband is interpreting the LW changing as “I don’t want to be asked.”

            3. Joielle*

              Yeah, this is my guess. It feels akin to an ask vs. guess culture thing, where the LW would be fine changing if the husband were to ask, but the husband is anticipating that she won’t want to, so he doesn’t ask.

            4. DisgruntledPelican*

              That sounds like a him problem. Put on your big boy pants and say something instead of making up someone else’s decisions and motivations in your head.

            5. PK*

              I’m genuinely confused by this. Is dinner not decided in advance? If someone needs to go to the store or run an errand, why not do it on the way home from work? OP’s husband would also have issues with me because once I’m home from work, I’m HOME for the night unless a dire emergency comes up. (But oh yes I am a huge homebody for sure – I have clearly underestimated the amount of energy others have to go home and not just get stuck on the couch)

          2. Jolie*

            It may be a communication issue? Maybe the husband assumes that if he finds her in Pj’s it means that she prefers staying in to going out, so he feels a bit awkward or discouraged to even ask?

            1. Jessastory*

              I mean if she’s had a long day at work, does she want to go out? If I haven’t already planned on going out after work, it’d take a lot to get me to go out for more than a quick errand

          3. Starbuck*

            “presumably they’d get dressed again.”

            LW doesn’t say if putting on PJs does indeed mean they’re in for the night (for a lot of people this is true!) or if they’re willing to dress up again. This is what they need to discuss with husband but also would have been helpful for us to know, because it does make a big difference in understanding his reaction.

        3. Formerly Retailed*

          If I’m doing anything after work, I generally know about it hours in advance if not days. The idea of my husband coming home at 6:15 and saying, “Oh, you wanna go do something” is a very foreign concept.

          1. Ana Gram*

            That’s where I land. I’m pro-pj’s when I get home. If we’re heading back out, I know it days in advance.

            2. Jolie*

              That’s what I’m wondering about. Could it be that they’re settled in a routine where they don’t really do things spontaneously/ at short notice ever, the husband would like to change the dynamic/start doing things more spontaneously in the evenings , but he feels like by putting on Pj’s his wife is communicating “Don’t even bother asking”, so he gets frustrated at the Pj’s because he can’t quite articulate the real problem, which could be more like “I find routine very draining” or “I want us to spend time together in a different way, that doesn’t always involve staying at home”.

          2. hSA*

            Yeah I agree. And if I’m wearing lounge clothes and decide I need to go out for some reason, I’ll just change. It’s not a big deal. Maybe not the case with the OP and OP’s husband. To me this seems not like a pajama problem but a relationship problem.

            1. Helen B*

              +1

              Communication recommended here. I’m a bit worried by the original post; seems like OP’s husband doesn’t think she’s allowed to be “powered down” unless he is too. Apologies if I am reading too much into your post, OP; and if so, would loungewear be a comfy and workable alternative?

              The insight into different cultural backgrounds in the other comments is really interesting.

          3. Irish Teacher.*

            I think it depends a bit on what one means by “go do something”. While people would probably generally plan things like nights out in advance, I don’t think it would be that unusual to say, “hey, I don’t feel like cooking. Let’s go get a burger” or “it’s a lovely evening. Let’s stroll down to the park” or “the neighbours asked if we’d like to pop in for a game of cards.” Or even just “it’s late opening in the DIY store. Want to head down and see if they have that paint colour we’re looking for for the spare room?”

            1. Diomedea Exulans*

              My spouse and I almost never planned nights out or anything in advance- it was always like, hey let’s go here and there today. Even on weekdays in the past, when we had fewer work hours.

            2. chocolate lover*

              It definitely depends on the couple, and there’s clearly a mismatch between OP and her husband’s perception of things. He seems to be making assumptions based on the pajamas. My husband and I might decide to go out to dinner after work, but we don’t do anything else spontaneously – by the time we ate dinner, it would be after 8 pm and we’re not going anywhere at that point if it wasn’t already planned. But that’s our particular routine and schedule.

          4. Double A*

            Yes. Absolutely. Going out on a weeknight for a teacher is… no. I work from home now, but when I didn’t I would run any errands or work out on the way home, and when I was home on a weeknight it was for the night (with the exception of Friday). And now that I work from home I rarely go anywhere on weeknights! If I do, it’s either an urgent errand or planned in advance. We also have kids and I start making dinner immediately after I’m done working, then that pretty much transitions directly into bedtime so I don’t know when I’d go out anyway.

          5. Mina Murray*

            Same! I’m thinking that Jonathan and I are even further on the “homebody” bell curve than I thought… and I’m OK with that ;)

        4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          Do people actually spontaneously decide to do social things on weeknights? I will occasionally do social things on a work day but almost always with advance plans. It seems weird to me to expect your spouse to be ready for anything after a work day.

          1. Claire*

            Yes, I do it. I’m friends with many, many people who live in my neighborhood so it’s easy to get together socially on short notice.

          2. Temperance*

            Honestly yes – it’s sometimes low-stakes like running out for pizza or happy hour, but it happens!

          3. Joielle*

            Ha, same. I’m more of a lounge clothes gal myself, but it would be a real anomaly to get home from work, put on yoga pants, and then decide to go somewhere that’s more than a yoga pants level of formality. Most of my friends have young kids so it takes some advance planning for an outing to happen.

            If it were to happen, I would just put nice clothes back on! But it is rare.

          4. Annie E. Mouse*

            I do. Some nights my spouse and I will get home from work/log off and not feel like cooking, decide we feel like a drink, or realize there’s nothing good on tv and decide to go out. Sometimes an afternoon text with a friend having a day will morph into an impromptu happy hour or something.

          5. Mockingjay*

            Ha! Let me introduce you to my extroverted, impulsive hubby. He’s always ready to go and Do Things!

            It took us a long time to be okay with saying yes and no and to learn to communicate the reasons for that decision. Sometimes I really need “pajama time” to unwind and he had to understand that I’m not crushing his dreams if I need to recoup after a hectic day. On the other side, I realized that I often said no as a knee-jerk reaction, so I learned to inquire more about the proposed Event and quite often it’s something I can handle, but “give me a half hour to reorient myself, then I’ll be ready to go.”

          6. duinath*

            Yep. I live alone and I sometimes see people on short notice, and when I’m staying with someone it happens much more often.

            And even if there’s not a social activity, errands happen.

          7. Malarkey01*

            I think there’s a huge gulf between larger social things and just leaving the house. It’s incredibly common for me to spontaneously find out someone needs me to run to the store/pharmacy/soccer pick up etc or to come home and say I don’t feel like cooking let’s grab something simple.

            It would be very hard for me if my spouse said they were casual to the point of not opening a door every single night starting at 4. Not wrong, but just wouldn’t work for our family.

            1. doreen*

              Yeah, I don’t usually decide to do something social spontaneously during the week – but I also wouldn’t consider going to a diner/pizzeria 5 minutes away with my husband to be social. And there are loads of errands we run together due to parking issues – some we know about in advance but I don’t know if I’m going to the pharmacy until I get a text from them – which might be after I’m already home.

          8. Diomedea Exulans*

            Oh yes, I wrote a comment about it above – although we rarely go anywhere on workdays these days, if we do, it’s almost always spontaneous

          9. londonedit*

            Yes. Most of the time it’s not ‘big night out’ things, but every so often a friend will text and ask whether I fancy going for a drink (we have several pubs nearby so it’s just a short walk down the road), or my partner (who I don’t live with) will ask if I’m free for dinner. And then there’s the ‘oh my Amazon parcel is ready to pick up a day early, I’ll nip out and get that’, or the ‘Ugh I don’t fancy what’s in the fridge, I’m going to pop to the shop and get something else’ (again, shop is a short walk away), or the ‘I feel like I’ve been cooped up in the house all day, I fancy a walk around the park before it gets too dark’. Not necessarily going out for a big night of socialising, and I wouldn’t need to ‘get dressed up’ for any of it, but I definitely wouldn’t wear my pyjamas.

          10. Sillysaurus*

            Yes, sometimes I spontaneously do things on weeknights. But I live in a very walkable neighborhood, so often it’s like “it’s nice out, let’s walk to the food cart pod and get some dinner” or “let’s walk the dog over to the dog park.” I’m not like, spontaneously deciding to go clubbing after my 10-hour shift at the hospital.

            My husband works from home so often he’s in sweatpants and will change into jeans so we can go out. This takes one minute. It would be so weird if I insisted he was always ready just in case I wanted to go somewhere.

          11. Starbuck*

            Yes often, but I have a lot of social options I can walk to from where I live in 10-15 minutes so it’s trivial to decide I’m going back out of the house. If it’s something I have to drive to, much less likely.

          12. Loopie*

            Yes, why wouldn’t they? Even if it is just let’s go get pizza for dinner. Until this year and turning 64 it would never have crossed my mind to not go out after work-even with routine 10 hour day. Now, 12 hour days and long drive means PJs when I get home.

          13. PK*

            I agree! Someone mentioned going to a movie on a weeknight, and maybe this is just sad late stage capitalism talking, but who has time to do a movie on a weeknight? If I get home at 7 or 8 pm after my commute, and have dinner, how would I also be in bed at 10 or 11pm if we went to a 9pm movie?

          14. Lenora Rose*

            We have some friends who occasionally call with last minute plans, and sometimes we say yes. It’s not my preference, especially with the kids now, but it happens. More, since many of our friends have health issues or life issues that have meant plans we make in advance may get cancelled, sometimes those last minute plans are the first time we’ve seen them in that month.

            (There are alo non-social things, like groceries or household items that turn out to be needed right away, or, infamously, “oops, I waited too long to renew my bus pass online, I now have to run and do it in person…”)

            Of course, the whole idea that I would need an entire other set of clothes to relax, or to hang out in my own house is just not a part of my personal culture. My work clothes are *also* comfortable, and I do enough other things to divide work place/time from fun.

        5. learnedthehardway*

          Agreeing – our family has “out of the house” and “in the house” clothes. We all typically wear super comfortable clothing or PJs in the house, but will change to go out. Now, some days, one of us might say “I’m already in PJs and don’t feel like going out again”, but that’s because that person is tired and done for the day.

          I’m guessing the husband feels like options for going out for dinner or having guests are over, when he comes home and the OP is in PJs.

          A compromise might be to find super comfortable clothing that would do double for lounging in the house, or going out for a casual meal. Eg. sweaters with leggings.

          1. judyjudyjudy*

            Or they could just…talk about it? I don’t know that PJs after work need to banned from the household because he assumes it means she won’t go out to dinner or the store on she puts them on.

            1. Starbuck*

              Yeah I don’t know why this isn’t something LW has already clarified with husband… this seems like Step 1 before writing in for advice. Is husband right that LW isn’t willing to go out and do things once PJs come on? Or is LW willing to change and go out of husband asks? Just tell him!!

        6. LL*

          Yeah, when I read that I was wondering if LW won’t do things outside the house in the evenings and uses her pajamas as the excuse. I can see that being frustrating for husband and that would explain why he said that. Or maybe HE’s the type of person who doesn’t change into his pajamas until he’s in for the night and assumes LW is like that even though she’s not. It would be interesting to know that. It sounds like there might be a bigger issue here between someone who wants to sometimes go out after work and someone who doesn’t.

      3. SpayPets*

        I dunno, I am with the husband here. If I came home to find my spouse *ready for bed*, I would see it the same way. It makes going out to eat, going for an evening walk or even sitting outside look like an ordeal.

        I am fully behind the concept of changing into play clothes after work. I did so myself. But my play clothes were jeans and sneakers or workout clothes.

        Also, it’s kind of gross to wear something you’ve been knocking around the house in for hours to bed.

        1. Michelle Smith*

          I disagree with that but I suppose it depends on how often you wash your sheets/how dirty you get during your typical day.

          The other argument in favor of pajamas vs. other types of clothing is that you have significantly less laundry to do than if you’re changing into two outfits PLUS pajamas in a typical weekday.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            Eh. Now I disagree with you.

            I can’t understand eating dinner in my pajamas. Too much likelihood of having to change and clean my pajamas. And my play clothes usually get recycled for a few days before they hit the laundry.

            I work 4 days a week. The four work shirts go into the laundry (as does all underwear). One of my work bottoms (skirts or pants) usually needs a laundry run. I typically wear my play clothes for at least 2 days (shorts/yoga pants, t-shirt) depending on getting food on them at dinner. So, 3 or so shorts and tees a week. Then I can launder my pjs every other week or so since I’m only wearing that particular item of clothing when I’m under the covers. That’s not a lot of laundry.

        2. judyjudyjudy*

          LW, let this comment section be a lesson in how people (like your husband) assume your thoughts, feelings, motivations, and now apparently hygiene and judge them thusly, because you put on pajamas after work. I hope you can talk about this, and come to some satisfactory resolution.

        3. chocolate lover*

          I definitely do not want to sit around my house in jeans. And the only thing Im doing at home after work is sitting on the couch, so I’m not worried about getting too dirty.

      4. Jolie*

        I’m wondering if there is an underlying clash about *how* they relax. Like, if the husband were to suggest “let’s go for a walk in the neighbourhood” or “let’s grab a quick drink at the local pub”, would she be like “Oh but I’m in Pj’s, let’s just have a quiet one at home instead”? Or would he assume that this is what she would prefer, so he feels discouraged from even asking?

        I’m a massive extrovert, so when I’m exhausted from a long day at work/high responsibility stuff I can find “just having a quiet one at home” incredibly draining at times. I wonder whether that’s where the husband’s frustration comes from.

        1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          yes, this is it. Wearing pyjamas doesn’t mean you won’t be doing any cleaning or cooking, but it does clearly say you’re not up for going out, whether to the shops or for a meal or a drink. Which, if you’ve had a hard day and you’re all peopled out from interacting with students and teachers all day, is probably right, but I can understand your partner getting a sinking feeling when they get in and see you like that.
          Also, I only ever had pyjama days when I was too depressed to go out, and when my daughter used to come down in her onesie, that meant she was going to mooch all day and probably had a hard week and is too exhausted to contemplate anything more strenuous than watching TV, so maybe he gets the impression OP is under par?

          1. amoeba*

            It doesn’t have to say that though! I absolutely change into clothes at home that would, err, not be suitable for going out – for me, that’s usually some kind of shorts or sweatpants and a loose t-shirt/sweater without a bra. Sometimes the t-shirt I also sleep in, sometimes a different one (but basically from the same category in my drawer).

            I am also absolutely happy to go out again, it just takes me, like, a minute to put on clothes again! More than worth it for the added comfort of being braless and in comfy trousers at home. (And no, I do not find going out without a bra comfy *at all*, it would actually be quite painful! And I do have well-fitting ones that I like to wear. But at home, when I’m not moving much, they come off as soon as possible. Relaxing with them just seems wrong, just as wearing jeans on the sofa!)

            1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

              I think “it doesn’t have to say that” is why OP should have a conversation with their husband about it and explain what it means for her, hear how he’s interpreting it, and discuss how to navigate evening plans. Is OP in for the night when they put on pajamas immediately after work, or are they just getting comfy but willing to put on outside clothes again if the husband wants to go out for dinner or go for a walk?

              They should also talk about weeknight expectations. I come from a family of teachers, so I’ve seen firsthand that teaching can be uniquely exhausting to the point that going out on a weeknight to do anything more than take a walk around the neighborhood or run a quick errand is a complete no-go. Is that OP’s take on things, or are they willing to do more than that sometimes?

              Also, in terms of going out for an errand in comfy clothes, most of the stores in my area never stopped doing curbside pickup when the pandemic restrictions eased, so I can totally go pick up milk or medicine without having to change clothes, so being in PJs doesn’t mean OP’s not willing to do that.

              1. amoeba*

                Aaaaah, I just realised that a lot of my confusion comes from the fact that I’m in a European city where going to the shops would involve a walk in the neighborhood – so no matter whether I need to go into the shop or not, I’d need clothes that can be worn in the street! Guess that’s different if you’re driving, haha.

                1. Nancy*

                  That doesn’t matter. Changing back into clothes to go for a walk or whatever is not a big deal. I do it all the time.

                  LW should just tell her husband that if he wants to go out then he should ask.

                2. amoeba*

                  @Nancy sure, same here! I was just confused by the concept of going for takeout food or whatever without changing out of your pajamas – that gets a lot weirder if you don’t drive!

                3. Princess Pumpkin Spice*

                  @Nancy – but I think that’s the problem.

                  Your statement reads so, so similar to my ex (and A LOT of men I know).

                  If you want me to do the laundry, just ask.
                  If you want me to wash the dishes, just ask.
                  Why didn’t you ask for help if you were overwhelmed.
                  I’m happy to help, just ask!

                  It puts the onus on OP’s husband to initiate the thing. Instead of putting him in that position, why does OP have to change into pjs instead of, say, leggings and a t-shirt? Something casual and comfy but doesn’t read done for the day.

                  Look, I’m a huge introvert, and will happily rot on the couch when I get home from work. But sometimes I realize I need to go to the store, or friends are meeting up, or I want to just go and take a walk. The husband is upset OP is in pjs after work every day, and it feels a bit… selfish, maybe? Inconsiderate? to disregard those feelings.

                4. amoeba*

                  @Princess Pumpkin Spice

                  This is not in any way comparable though? Yes, it’s a problem when women have to ask (!) their husband to take on his fair share of his own household, obviously. How is that in any way similar to complaining what another adult is wearing in their own home? Like, what’s his reasoning there? He doesn’t like the way she looks?

                  I mean, yes, if he wants to go out or do stuff, he needs to use his words like an actual adult, not just play guessing games based on what LW is wearing! He’s the one who wants to do things, so yes, he needs to suggest them. He’d still need to suggest them if she was wearing jeans because, well, maybe she still doesn’t want to go out?
                  Or is it just about “this feels weird to him”? Yeah, no, sorry. I wear what I want and definitely don’t need my partners approval for my choice of clothes (and neither does he need mine, obviously!)

                5. Florence Reece*

                  @Princess Pumpkin Spice

                  Oh, no. This is not the takeaway from that famous comic about emotional labor, at all. Expecting your partner to contribute to your shared living conditions and the care of your shared children is not remotely close to expecting your partner to be dressed and ready for spontaneous plans every night just in casesies. It’s kind of insulting to compare the two lol.

                  If you’re doing plans that are outside of your routine, *someone* has to initiate that. If OP’s husband is the one who wants to do that, why *shouldn’t* he be “put in the position” to initiate? Why would it be OP’s responsibility to manage their husband’s unspoken desire to do something else with the night? That’s just putting the emotional labor back on the (likely femme) other partner to anticipate the husband’s whims and sacrifice their own comfort, when their husband hasn’t even said that’s what he wants. For all the stereotypical complaints from cishet relationships that “I can’t read her mind, how should I know that laundry needs doing”, that sure sounds a lot like asking OP to literally read their husband’s mind.

              2. PNut Gallery*

                There’s a whole lot of projecting in the comments! But I agree with you that this is a communication issue and not a what anyone is wearing issue. Plus the missing information of if OP is willing to get dressed again to go out if that comes up. All it takes, in a relationship where two people care about each other and talk, is to talk.

                If OP is comfortable in pyjamas but is still getting everything else done then husband should keep quiet about it. Maybe he’s just reinforcing social norms without questioning it, maybe he’s looking to come home to a beautifully done up spouse. Or maybe once OP is in PJs they are refusing to to do other things which then becomes a different discussion. Too much missing information in the post, but it all comes down to communication.

                As for me, I WFH exclusively and literally work all day in pyjamas (I’m never on camera). If I need to go out I throw on some clothes, or if I’m just going to be in my car I’ll throw a coat on over the PJs. I’m over 50 and just don’t care about looking good for other people – my own comfort comes first and hard pants for sitting around at home all day when no one sees me is a no-go.

                1. WFH4LIFE*

                  Glad you see I’m not the only one who wears PJs while working from home, which in my case is comfy shorts when it’s warm and actual PJ pants when it gets cooler. Any Zoom calls are mostly from the shoulders up so it’s not like anyone knows, and if I need to run out, like I regularly do for lunch or of I have plans to go out after work, I just change into my going out clothes. I agree with everyone saying this seems more like a communication issue than a clothing issue.

            2. L*

              Yeah, exactly. I change into pyjamas/loungewear (they’re interchangeable for me) immediately on getting home, both for comfort and to keep my work clothes nicer, and because my landlord considers “tropical” to be an acceptable indoor temperature year-round. Absolutely nothing is stopping me from throwing those clothes back on when I need or want to go out again, but there’s no need to be uncomfortable until then.

          2. biobotb*

            Changing into pjs only says someone’s not up for going out if they say they won’t go out because they’re in pjs. If you have evidence that your partner won’t leave the house after changing into pjs is one thing, but just assuming this for your partner is strange.

            The fact that the LW is annoyed by her husbands assumptions suggests that for her, putting “outside” clothes back on is not off the table. It would have helped our interpretation if she’d addressed this explicitly. Is she rebuffing his post-work activity suggestions, or is he jumping to conclusions?

            1. Starbuck*

              But people say that all the time, so I don’t think it’s strange at all to assume. “Want to go out tonight?” “can’t I’m already in my PJs” is a common interaction I’ve had – both ways!

              1. Filosofickle*

                Definitely. Once I’ve put on PJs the day is over, even if that wasn’t a fully conscious intent. Of course I know rationally I could put regular clothes back on to go outside but once I’m jammied up my whole mindset shifts to “in for the night”. Typically I favor lounge clothes (as comfy as pajamas but nice enough to be seen) until it’s time for bed to keep the option open to do something productive or take a walk. Doesn’t work most of the time but at least the possibility remains!

              2. Allonge*

                ‘I’m in my PJs’ may be a common shorthand for ‘I am not going out tonight’, but like lots of expressions, it’s a figurative thing. I don’t think there is anyone who is stopped by the PJ issue if they want to go out.

                Both OP and husband need to use their words on this.

            2. Whanto*

              I actually just wonder if he’s not sure why it bothers him and couldn’t explain it very well. There are default pajama people, like me, and then there are other people who aren’t. My husband will put on jeans to sit in the house all day and cracks me up! But he doesn’t complain that I wear pajamas if I’m staying home all day, or that I change from work clothes to pajamas as soon as I get home. It’s just a way we’re different. I’ve worn a bra all day so maybe the level of comfort I need to achieve after work is more pressing and intense than his!

        2. Insert Clever Name Here*

          That’s what I was thinking, too. I wonder too if OP is someone who doesn’t take the pajamas off once they’re on, or if they’d be totally up for taking 2 minutes to throw jeans and a top on in order to go grab dinner at the local pub.

          1. Jolie*

            Another possibility/ possible communication issue : what if the OP aould/could be a “take 2 minutes to throw jeans on” person, but her husband assumes that she’s a “don’t take them off once they’re on” person and feels discouraged to even ask her to go out?

        3. Green great dragon*

          yeh, this is key. If your husband wants to go out, or you realise you’re out of milk, do you happily change? Or does your husband have to go on his own or not at all?

        4. Frankie Mermaids*

          A clash about how they relax AND what their full days look like. If he is getting home later in the day, is OP’s husband reading the situation as “she’s been loafing around the house for hours while I’ve been hard at work”? But do her “shorter” hours mean OP is also running to the store on her way home, or taking care of other household admin because she gets off work before him? I had a similar situation when I first got married, where I worked a first shift job and my husband worked a second shift.

        5. Turquoisecow*

          Yeah if I’m heading home from work thinking “I could really go for dinner from that great sushi place, maybe we’ll make it a date night,” and then I walk in the door and my spouse is already in pajamas, then we’re probably not going out for dinner, and if we get takeout I will probably have to pick it up because they’re already getting ready for bed. I mean yes they could get dressed, but that’s likely to be a whole process of thinking and changing rather than just putting on the clothes they wore to work, whereas if they were still dressed (unless work clothes means a uniform), we could just head out right away.

          Maybe I don’t want my evening to be over, maybe I’m not that much of a homebody and I’d like to go out occasionally. Seeing spouse in pajamas basically means that’s off the table. And yeah like a lot of relationship issues this could be solved if he explained all this, or maybe he could try texting “let’s go to the movies/dinner/pub/for a walk/etc” before he gets home, but maybe he has and OP was like “but I like pajamas,” or maybe he has them spontaneously while he’s walking through the door and then is deflated.

          1. londonedit*

            This is where I think the OP’s husband is coming from. I note a lot of people are saying they never ever go out on weeknights, and would never go out on a whim after work, but other people do (I’m one of them!) Could be a regional thing – if you live in a very walkable city with lots of going-out options, as I do, then it’s a lot easier for a friend to say ‘fancy the pub?’ and all that takes is a quick spruce-up and a five-minute walk down the road. No it doesn’t happen every night or every week, but it does happen. I think it’s the perceived removal of choice that the husband is disappointed by.

            I said the same further down, but it could be that the OP’s husband sees ‘kicking back after work’ as ‘going out for a nice drink’ or ‘popping down the road to the sushi place for dinner’ – that’s what he finds relaxing and that’s what helps him decompress after work. Whereas the OP might see ‘kicking back after work’ as ‘getting into comfy pyjamas and curling up on the sofa’.

            1. LadyVet*

              A friend and I met at a bar and found out we lived across the street from each other, and it was semi-divey so there were definitely times one of us would text the other about “meeting downstairs” and wear PJ pants and a cute top

      5. Falling Diphthong*

        The OP’s spouse saying that “He sees it as a sign that I’m refusing to do anything else that day” seems kind of extreme or harsh.
        I thought that until the OP gave the specifics of this being clothing in which she wouldn’t answer the door or run out to do something. I could see a spouse feeling like their arrival home was interrupting someone’s bedtime routine, in a way that arriving home to someone in stretchy pants and an old sweater does not. And suggesting a walk, trip to the ice cream place, etc, means the person has to change their clothes and is A Whole Thing.

        So I think that just as for OP, the pajamas are a metaphor that means she can relax, for spouse, the pajamas are a metaphor that means they are sealed in the house together. Is he excited to talk to someone and she’s talked out? Does he want to get out and MOVE and she wants to curl up and nest? Is this between-work-and-sleep segment of his day when he wants to explore something new and engaging and she wants the comfort of a set routine in their living room? They need to figure out what the pajamas represent, and whether one of them needs to shift to be more understanding of the other’s underlying need.

        1. Boof*

          Yes to me it would imply that they’re not going to want to do anything outside, be it a walk around, taking out the trash, anything. Which is fine if someone is pooped! But if it’s every day monday through friday (+ possibly summer depending on their teaching schedule) I could see that wearing thin over time, at least worth a real talk.
          … I would probably be kind of annoyed if my spouse basically said they’re done for the day all working days before I even got home.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            There’s a Special Family Thing for some families that is “We’re going to stay in our pajamas all day Saturday! Lounge around, go nowhere, eat pop tarts and similar zero-effort things while we watch TV!” Which is really fun because it’s a break from the routine–I could see what is really fun a few times a year becoming discouraging as the lowest effort option ate up more and more of your free time.

        2. Anne Elliot*

          Not just that they are “sealed in the house together” but also that if anything is breaks the cocoon — like a need to run to the store or even the doorbell ringing — the husband is going to have to deal with it because she’s in her jammies. I don’t personally think that’s necessarily the case, that pajamas = unfit to be seen in public, but I guess it depends on how ratty your pajamas are. So maybe all that’s needed is slightly nicer pajamas/loungewear?

          1. Marion Ravenwood*

            It might also be about whether other people perceive being in pyjamas at a certain time as weird. Like I will take the bins out in my pyjamas, but only really before about 7am or after 10pm, because anything outside those times feels like I should be wearing ‘proper’ clothes (nothing fancier than jeans and a sweatshirt, but something that you’d wear out of the house and no-one would bat an eyelid at).

            I’m totally down with the concept of ‘house clothes’ as I have a very sheddy cat and would rather not have cat hair all over my nice outfits, but I can see why to OP pyjamas = only in the house.

          2. chocolate lover*

            Do people actually open the door if they’re not expecting anyone these days? We don’t, but then again, no one we know just shows up unannounced.

          3. MigraineMonth*

            I had a set of cute pajamas that I would wear around my college house, and people used to ask me what party I was going to. Since then pajama bottoms have become pretty common in informal settings like grocery shopping, fast food/fast-casual dining, etc.

          4. Aerin*

            I generally hang around the house in a bra and bike shorts when it’s warm, so if I need to step outside for something I would have to throw on a top. (But I generally have one fairly close to hand so it’s not a problem.)

            I recently picked up a “sleep hoodie” to be my indoor clothes when it gets colder and it’s been a major improvement to wearing a bathrobe all the time. Just today we went out to vote and I didn’t have to change, just threw on some jeans.

        3. NotAManager*

          Yeah, I’m with Spouse on this feelings-wise (not that I think OP is doing anything wrong!). I tend to be more “dressed” when it comes to my work clothes and so when I come home I change into casual clothes that I would still feel comfortable heading into the outside world wearing, even if I’m in for the night. I *only* change into pajamas right before I go to bed, so if I see someone in PJs that signals Day Is Done for me, which I could see being frustrating for Spouse if he feels like OP is disengaged and ready for bed every day when he gets home. Not saying she is! But I do understand where his feelings are coming from on that.

          They need to talk to figure out what’s going on, but maybe a potential solution is loungewear, fashion sweatsuits are definitely back and they bridge the line between ‘comfy’ and ‘bedtime’ pretty well.

        4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          I often don’t wear a bra at home and will put one on to go out and it’s not A Whole Thing.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            I wouldn’t have predicted that the first thing to go in a global pandemic would be hard pants, but we have run that experiment.

      6. L-squared*

        I mean, I think its the PJs more than the “play clothes” as you call them.

        I’m all about changing out of my polo shirt and khakis into something more comfortable. That may be a t-shirt and jeans or possibly even shorts. BUT, I also acknowledge there is a certain type of thing (Such as sweatpants or PJs) that if that is on, mentally I know it means I’m not leaving again.

        It may just be a semantics thing. Because I don’t really wear “pajamas” to bed, so when I think of people putting on night ware, it really does seem excessive to a point where gym shorts and a t shirt don’t

        1. I Have RBF*

          See, that is kind of where I fall. I wear either scrubs or oversized tee and sweats as “pajamas”. Why? Years ago I realized that if there was a fire or an earthquake and I had to evacuate, I would be up a creek if I was in flimsy PJs or a nightie. So instead I wear loose, comfortable clothes to bed that I can still evacuate in. It’s one less thing on my mental load.

          1. Bay*

            I currently live in an area where evacuations are way more likely than in my hometown, and I still struggle with this! I know my whole city sleeps in something they could comfortably run outside in if necessary, but while my lounge clothes are great for this, I really dislike sleeping in more than boxers and a tank top. I compensate with a long coat hung ready on the front door and spare sweats in my go bag, but it is certainly a big influence on pajama culture in some parts of the world and something I would not have anticipated struggling with

      7. metadata minion*

        I’m fascinated by the different attitudes toward pajamas here! I’ll often change into pjs when I get home, especially at this time of year where the temperature changes so much that I want to change into something else anyway by the time I get home.

        If I need to run an errand or we decide to go out to dinner or whatever, I just put street clothes back on. It takes two minutes. Sometimes I run to the store in a tshirt and flannel pajama bottoms like a barbarian. But I’m also the sort of person who prioritizes clothing that takes the absolute minimum amount of fuss and I don’t wear makeup, so maybe for other people it’s more of a hassle to change out of pjs?

        1. Anne Elliot*

          For me it’s not the physical hassle of changing clothes, it’s the mental “divesting of the day” that changing into pajamas embodies. That I do understand. Pajamas means I’m done for the day, I’m not going back out, I’m not answering the door, I’m not video chatting with anybody, I’m done. So I think for the spouse the problem might be the attitude of “doneness” that the pajamas symbolize, and not the challenge of putting hard pants back on.

        2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

          For me, pajamas are exclusively for when I’m going to be asleep in the next 30 minutes. I won’t even wear them on the couch unless I’m very sick and I know I’ve got another clean set to change into for bed (the cat is allowed on the couch, but cat hair in the bed is Not Ok because of allergies). So my first read I was thinking LW is sleeping for 12+ hours a day and wondering if she’s seen a doctor yet…

      8. Lady Danbury*

        Imo, there’s absolutely nothing with changing into pajamas after a long day of work. They’re more comfy for lounging and there’s nothing to stop LW from changing again if she has to leave the house. If LW’s spouse has an issue with what she does in the evenings (not pitching in enough, wanting to go out more, whatever), then he should address that issue directly. In this instance, the clothes do not make the (wo)man.

      9. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

        I like to lightly ball-bust my assistant principal wife that she looks all good in her work clothes all day and I never get to see it because she’s in pajamas the moment she gets home. But it’s just ribbing, and of course I want her to be comfortable and leave work behind.

        1. Cmdrshprd*

          I totally read that as

          “lightly ball-bust my assistant principal’s wife that she looks all good in her work clothes all day and I never get to see it because she’s in pajamas the moment she gets home.”

          as in you make fun of someone that is not your wife but rather your bosses wife, because you don’t get to see her looking good in her outfit lol.

      10. Bruise Campbell*

        I also change into my jammies when I get home but I still cook dinner/feed the dogs/etc, so I’m certainly not “done for the day” based on what I’m wearing.

      11. ClaireW*

        I say this as someone who’s spouse chronically wears PJs to WFH – I think there’s a big difference between ‘casual non-work clothes’ and pyjamas. For me, pyjamas definitely gives that “I am not stepping beyond that front door until tomorrow” and if I was hoping to like suggest going out for dinner with my spouse, or hoping that I wouldn’t be the only one going to the grocery store this evening for what we need, or even just wanting to feel like we were having a nice dinner… well eventually I might get a little drained feeling like my spouse is always in “Day is over” mode when I get home from work and want to do stuff with them.

      12. A Poster Has No Name*

        Same, except we call them ‘lounge clothes’ or ‘house clothes’ but it’s the same deal. For both my husband and I, if we’re in the house and not expected to need to go anywhere soon, we’re in house clothes.

        It’s remarkably easy to change back into ‘real clothes’ if it’s necessary to leave the house.

      13. The Nanny*

        Same here! My partner and I joke that you could follow our trail of discarded clothes when we get home – we look forward with joy to ‘no pants couch time’ at the end of the day. If we want to go out to dinner we usually do it on the way home from work, or otherwise I’d want to change into something nicer than work clothes anyway.

        Similarly to what you said, does anyone else feel the desperate need to take off all their jewelry as soon as they step in the house? The rings and bracelets that didn’t bother me at all out and about suddenly become soooo irritating.

      14. grandma Cassie’s lady slippers*

        I change into pjs immediately when I get home from work if there were no previously made plans. If my partner or someone else wants to do something I just change back into regular clothes. Easy peasey.

        It’s not like I refuse to do something because I’m already in pjs. I just change.

      15. not nice, don't care*

        Maybe OP’s husband expects her to still be on the clock for him. He should pay if he wants performative dressing when she’s otherwise off the clock.

      16. Elizabeth West*

        Same. When I get home after being in the office, my work clothes come off immediately. I’ve worn them all day, I’ve ridden the train and the bus in them, and I want out of them. If I take a shower immediately, I’ll put on PJs, but if I haven’t done that yet, I just put on lounge pants and a t-shirt. I can’t go to the store in those clothes, however — if I needed to go out, I’d put hard pants and shoes back on. But I rarely need to go anywhere once I’m home.

        Unless I have a doc appointment, if I’m working from home it’s lounge pants and no bra all day! \0/

      17. 2 Cents*

        My husband is like Leslie Nielsen’s character in Naked Gun, who wears a tuxedo when he “slips into something more comfortable.” I, on the other hand, wear years-old sweats constantly (I work from home). The compromise is I will happily change to better clothing when we go out, even if it’s at the spur of the moment. But when I’m home, I’d prefer no hard pants or waistbands.

      18. Jessica*

        Same! I don’t think it shows an “unusual amount of homebodyness” any more than having house shoes/slippers does. I don’t put on actual pajamas, but I absolutely do come home and put on yoga pants that I don’t wear outside the house. I don’t want them getting rained on/dirty/etc.

      19. Wilbur*

        Last week there was a whole discussion on the hack of keeping your shoes on to keep yourself in a productive mindset. It’s definitely not weird to change into other clothes (even pajamas) to signal to yourself that you are done with work.

        I can understand how the spouse could feel that way, but I suspect the spouse could resolve this issue with communication. If OP wanted to meet in the middle maybe there’s comfy clothes that aren’t pajamas they could wear but there’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing.

      20. Starbuck*

        “The OP’s spouse saying that “He sees it as a sign that I’m refusing to do anything else that day” seems kind of extreme or harsh.”

        I mean I kind of get it, in the past I’ve invited friends out to do things after work and a common refrain is “I’m already in sweats/PJs so I can’t” like he’s not coming up with this out of nowhere, it’s a pretty strong signal for going into lounging mode. I’ve used it myself! Once I put on my sweatpants it’s true, I’m probably not going out again that evening either. Nothing wrong with that! But they should communicate more.

      21. Pointy's in the North Tower*

        I change into my inside clothes when I come home. I still do plenty of things, like make dinner, take out the trash, do laundry, etc., in my inside clothes. I come home from work feeling gross a lot of days, so I put on clean clothes that I consider pajamas (t shirt and lounge shorts) after I shower. No sense in putting on my gross work clothes after getting clean. I also have a weird thing for no outside clothes on the bedding.

        Inside clothes are only appropriate at home or hitting up the drive thru. I’d never wear them to dinner or to grab toilet paper at Target.

    2. Nodramalama*

      I change immediately into trackies, but don’t go straight to pjs. There’s a lot left of the day before I go to bed! It I eat dinner in my pjs there is an even chance I will spill something and then have to change AGAIN

      1. Em*

        Pretty similar to me- I just have at home clothes that are cozy and not contaminated with metro/tram/bus seat gunk, and I change immediately when I get home for comfort and cleanliness, or they’re what I put on first thing if I’m not going out. Somehow wearing outdoor clothes at home feels bad to me- how can you relax if you’re wearing a belt at home??? Everyone in my family changes immediately when getting home, so I guess it’s our cultural norm.

        1. JustaTech*

          I have a friend who was a daycare teacher and now is a daycare director and she says the #1 thing she does to keep from being sick all the time is to strip off all her work clothes the moment she gets in the door and change into PJ’s/ lounge clothes. And that was even before COVID!

          Personally I’ve never been a “change when you get home” kind of person, mostly because my work clothes aren’t that different from what I would wear at home normally. (Also, I’m a shoe-on person and I prefer to wear my bra while vertical, so I get that this is pretty different to many people.)

          1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

            I’m like you – and I generally sleep in “regular” clothes (leggings and a shirt), I don’t wear actual pajamas. I hate going without a bra and I’ve learned that if I change into something too slouchy when I get home, I won’t get anything done for the evening – my ADHD brain sees that and thinks, “check-out time!”

        1. Kivrin*

          Same — I have inside the house soft clothes that I change into if I’ve been in work drag. I’ll wear them for errands and doing gardening etc but if I decide to go to the pub I’ll likely put on jeans and a nicer top.

          On the other hand, if I work out after work I always put on pjs after I shower, even if there’s a lot of night left. If I have to run out for something I’ll toss the casual soft clothes on.

          In other words, I don’t think it’s weird to put on pjs — but I do get why your husband might see it as a signal that options for spontaneity are closed. Are you willing to change again for a spontaneous game of mini golf or a quick dinner out? If so, maybe let him know that?

          I was dating someone for a while who got upset if I wore pjs at dinner, because he was an arse who thought women should look nice for their men. So I do lean a bit into you do you — but I also think it’s reasonable to find out what he feels it means for the two of you, whether he’d feel better if he knew you were willing to change if something came up, etc.

      3. RIP Pillowfort*

        Same. I have lounge wear (loose t-shirt/leggings/sweats/etc.) I put on when I get home because I don’t want to wear a bra or be in work mode anymore.

        It feels like there isn’t direct communication about expectations in this case. OP doesn’t say whether they would go back out after changing into PJ’s. The husband’s language is really pointed as well. I could see this being a sore spot if you came home and found all the tasks like running to the store/answering the door fell on you because your spouse was done with the day.

        My mom was like this. My dad and I were always the ones stopping by the store to get things, answering the door at home, etc. She would get home, change, and there was no getting her to go out barring an emergency. My dad didn’t mind it. I was sometimes annoyed getting texts to pick up things that she could have already picked up after work, had she not just gone straight home.

        1. doreen*

          I suppose it’s possible that the OP would be willing to get dressed if the husband wanted to go out to dinner or if someone needed to run to the store – but I would think the husband would know if that was the case and it would have been mentioned in the letter. Changing into clothes you wouldn’t answer the door in seems to be a pretty clear signal that your intention is to be in for the night – which is fine once in a while, but I’d be pretty annoyed to come home most nights and find out I’m taking the trash out, I’m running to the store if we need anything, I’m answering the door , we’re eating dinner at home unless I made plans to go to the diner at least a day in advance, etc etc. Those issues are not going to come up every day – the doorbell may not ring for days at a a time but I’m getting the signal every day.

            1. doreen*

              Not me – but the way LW mentions that the husband ” doesn’t dress down to the point that he wouldn’t want to answer the door or run to the store.” makes it seem like the OP wouldn’t want to answer the door or run to the store in whatever they wear after work.

            2. JustaTech*

              I absolutely would not answer the front door in my summer pajamas because they are very … brief. I would throw on a bathrobe to answer the door.
              I think some of the disconnect here is how individuals define “pajamas”. Like, PJs can be a set of flannel pants and long sleeved button top, PJ’s can be floppy shorts and a worn T-shirt, PJ’s can be a practically-transparent slip. It depends on the person, the climate, and if the person is only wearing them to bed or if they’re using the PJs as lounge wear.

          2. not nice, don't care*

            Yikes. Some folks absolutely need to plan ahead for outings, errands, etc. No plans = no need for outdoor clothes.
            And who can afford to just randomly run out to spend a paycheck on dinner anyway?

            1. Starbuck*

              Well, plenty. I’ve got options in the neighborhood for a $20 dinner (including a drink). Dinner doesn’t have to mean fancy! And cheap doesn’t always mean bad or fast food either. Sure it’s not affordable all the time, but a lot of people in cities have habits of eating out a couple times a week without breaking the bank.

        2. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

          how are your doorbells being rung so constantly that this is a major concern? honestly that boggles me more than anything. I cannot even recall the last time I had someone other than a delivery driver ring the bell.

          1. doreen*

            There are delivery drivers of course ( who don’t ring the bell as often as I would like) but there are also neighbors who ring the bell to give me packages they picked up off my steps or to ask me if they can park in front of my driveway for an hour or to let me know they will be having some sort of work done on their house that will affect me. It’s not constant but it’s not twice a year , either.

          2. RIP Pillowfort*

            My dad was kind of a social butterfly so his friends would show up to talk (normally on the porch/carport) or help him work on a project. Or he would be helping them with one because he had all the really good tools.

            My dad and mom were kind of an odd couple. It’s definitely something that stopped mid-2000’s when they both retired. Much more free time and my dad didn’t have to shoe-horn his social interactions only on the weekends/evenings.

    3. Happily Retired*

      I don’t change into pj’s/nightgown, but I do immediately change into SlobWear™ (that’s supposed to be a trademark symbol, if the site software gets confused) the moment I’m home. The nightgown goes on when I finally realize that I need to be in bed. Like now.

      1. Ally McBeal*

        Yep. I have several pairs of Old Navy flannel pants and I throw on a set along with a ratty tank top the minute I get home (this is also my work uniform on WFH days, and I wear a nice cardigan over the ratty shirt for meetings). My PJs are totally different and I only slip into those when my “time to go to bed now” alarm goes off. USUALLY it’s true that once the house clothes go on, I’m not leaving the house again, but I have absolutely changed back into outside clothes and gone out again.

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      I change out of work clothes when I get home, but it’s only into pyjamas if I’ve had a really long work day coordinating an event. People somehow conflate pyjamas/loungewear with laziness because of the association with bed, but it sounds to me that people who change into them after work use it as a way of switching off theit “work brain”.

      And it always fascinates me to watch old films and see people come to the door in a suit and tie or a fancy dress with full hair and make-up. I always wonder if people actually did that back in the 1940s or 50s!

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        ooh they did! My mother would actually put a smarter outfit on and touch up her make-up just before Dad came home from work (having spent the day at home, but fully made-up before breakfast). I’ve seen old magazines where women are exhorted to do this, to look good for hubby coming home from work.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Oh, that’s interesting! In addition to the old-school sexism, I wonder if staying dressed up at home was because it was more common to have random people calling on you in that era, so the expectation was that you should look presentable just in case you had to answer the door.

        2. PhyllisB*

          My mother too!! Even in her nineties she refused to answer the door or go to the mailbox if her “face” wasn’t on.

        3. Not Australian*

          “Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your makeup
          Soon he will open the door
          Don’t think because there’s a ring on your finger
          You needn’t try any more…”

          Bacharach/David, Wives and Lovers, 1962, ‘the most sexist song ever’ – and yes, people *did* think exactly that and they did *do* exactly that. Thank goodness times have changed.

        4. wendelenn*

          The song “Wives and Lovers” by Burt Bacharach/Hal David. “Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your makeup, Soon he will open the door. . .”

          UGH.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Mr. Rogers used to swap from his sport coat to cardigan, and outside shoes to slippers. But he didn’t arrive home and immediately change into pjs.

        I think OP’s preferred outfit being one so casual she wouldn’t answer the door is where this goes into unusual territory. I think more normal is relaxed wear in which you would answer the door, run next door to give them an egg, go to the pub or post office, etc.

        There’s a Stone Soup cartoon in which Val throws a blazer over the stretchy shirt and pants she slept in, and when her boss questions this look claims that the young salesgirl convinced her it was the new fashion.

      3. Seconds*

        My mother tells me about visiting her grandmother, who would have been born before 1880. And these visits would have been in the 40s, probably.

        She says that if her grandmother was cooking and the doorbell rang, the grandmother would remove her apron and carefully unroll her sleeves before going to the door. She also had to be sure she was wearing shoes (although I doubt she was cooking barefoot anyway). I believe that sometimes she would have her granddaughter greet the person so that she would have enough time to get herself ready.

        I think that being well dressed was associated with status, at all times. Now that clothes are relatively cheap (yes, they are) and we display our status more with electronics, cars, and travel, we have forgotten how important clothes once were to one’s position in society.

        Similarly, it has seemed to me that even now, in places with larger income disparities, people of means are less likely to “dress down,” so as not to be mistaken for those who can’t afford to dress better.

      4. Happily Retired*

        My mother wore a pale blue with white polka dots shirtwaist dress, belt and all, during the daytime around the house while cooking, cleaning, etc. Daddy and I called it her “uniform” (he was an Army surgeon.) This lasted through the mid- to late-sixties until we were transferred to Hawai’i, and informality became the ruling guideline of our lives. Thank God.

        I don’t think it was explicit sexism. She didn’t freshen her makeup, etc. It’s just what she and most other women she knew did. She was an athlete and always wore her Bermuda shorts and golf shirt to play golf, came home, and changed right back into her uniform. -which she wore every day, btw, except laundry day, putting it back on the next day.

    5. Artemesia*

      I think it is a reasonable rule of life that if something bugs your husband you don’t do it (and vice versa) even if it is ‘reasonable.’ It is a small thing to change into jeans or sweats or whatever rather than pajamas in the evening.

      My husband thinks the bed should be made — I don’t care. So we make the bed because it matters to him. Why would I not do this small thing that matters to him? Our rule is the last person up makes the bed and that is usually him so it works out anyway.

      1. MK*

        That works if the thing your spouse wants is something you don’t care about and/or requires minimal effort, not if it’s something that bugs you in return or requires significant effort/inconvenience. Then, sorry, but they need to justify why I should do it.

        In this case the husband wants OP to change something that makes her comfortable for hours every single day, and if she changes that she will be less comfortable on a daily basis. That’s not in the “things that don’t matter that I do it for loved one”. If OP is in fact done with the day once she changes, and that means her husband gets stuck with anything that needs doing outside the house, he has a valid complaint; and her wanting to be comfortable isn’t much of an argument in an era where the shops are brimming with atheisure/loungeqear that’s more pajama-like than sleepwear, over-sized tops and yoga pants. If he wants to do fun stuff in the evenings and she doesn’t, that’s a relationship incompatibility they need to discuss. Of he has some hangup about people lounging in pjs in daytime or an unkempt wife, frankly that’s a him issue. She can still choose to humor him, but it’s not really a reasonable request.

        1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          If hubby is hoping to maybe eat out or have a drink with friends, and sees OP slouching in pyjamas, it probably dashes his hopes of a pleasant evening. Or maybe he was thinking of popping out to get something from the shop, and wanted OP to come to get her opinion, or because she knows more about it, and realises if he wants to go, he’ll be on his own.
          OP could put some kind of comfy homewear on, that they could still go out to the shops in, rather than actual pyjamas?

          1. Myrin*

            That is a very surmountable obstacle, though!
            This is OP’s husband who lives and probably talks with her from time to time – if he hopes to go out spontaneously and sees his spouse in pyjamas, he doesn’t need to go all *sadface* and slink away in silence, he can just talk to OP about it!
            And depending on what OP decides, she can just change back into different clothes!

            Like, for me personally, pyjamas are for bed only and decidedly not anywhere else so I seem to be sharing a baseline with the husband here rather than with OP, but the way some commenters are presenting “the other side” is frankly astounding to me.

            If the problem is that husband wants to go out without planning beforehand and OP doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter what OP wears because it’s the actual “going out” part that hinders her, not her clothes.

            1. amoeba*

              This. It would be so, so weird to me to assume that I’m not planning to go out again just because I changed into something that can’t be worn outside? I mean, for me, wearing a bra at home when relaxing is super uncomfortable, as are jeans. So I take them off. If I want to go to the shop, I put them on again. Same with trousers – some of my “at home” trousers would be OK to go to the shop in, most wouldn’t (too short, comic print, knitted Christmas motives, you name it! Or just not good for the weather, I mean, I often wear shorts at home in winter…)

              It literally takes me one minute to get dressed again. There is zero obstacle here.

              On the other hand, staying in uncomfortable clothes all night just so my partner doesn’t (wrongly) assume I won’t join just in case he might want to go out seems pretty wild and unreasonable to me!

              1. Slide*

                This is where I am, too — I am utterly baffled by all this and would happily change back from naked/pajamas/whatever into something outdoorsable in order to go Have An Adventure. I hate to think what I’m wearing is supposed to communicate more than the words coming out of my mouth, and if I pair up again I’ll make sure to make this clear to my partner(s) so that I don’t miss out on potential fun just because I’m wearing 25 year old penguin pajamas or something.

            2. Modesty Poncho*

              “Like, for me personally, pyjamas are for bed only and decidedly not anywhere else so I seem to be sharing a baseline with the husband here rather than with OP, but the way some commenters are presenting “the other side” is frankly astounding to me.”

              Yeah, for me I shower in the evening so PJs are what I wear for hours before bedtime. I sometimes still have to cook dinner after I’ve changed, or do lots of chores around the house. But I’ve definitely had to go out and grab something from the store and thrown real clothes back on. My PJs are usually just soft bottoms and old T-shirts or tank tops, so in the cold seasons I can also just put a sweater on and be decent enough not to break any laws.

              (In the interest of oversharing I also don’t wear PJs to sleep…I get so overheated and sweaty that it’s a bad combination, so I’m not wearing something into bed that I’ve had on since 7pm.)

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            Yeah, I think the line is not “sleepwear is lazy” but “clothing you wouldn’t answer the door in feels too limiting for an evening as a couple.”

          3. Great Frogs of Literature*

            I’m not saying you’re wrong, but all this talk about going out to eat or down to the pub to have a pleasant evening is kind of amazing to me. I would say that my wife and I often have a pleasant evening, and typically the only going-out we do is a walk around the neighborhood. If I wanted to go out-out, I’d mention it in the morning, or the night before, or text her late afternoon, because otherwise I’m making plans on energy that I don’t know if she’ll have available until she gets home. (I’m more likely to decide that we should have takeout for supper and announce it as, “I was thinking we could have Thai food tonight,” but all that that requires is that she be willing to eat Thai food; she may well join me on the walk to pick it up, but I’m not assuming that she will.)

            1. ClaireW*

              Sure but OP is saying she wouldn’t even open the door in the clothes she puts on, so there’s no option for a walk around the neighborhood or her joining you to pick up the food or her even being willing to open the door to a delivery person if you ordered the food online. That’s the line here I think for a lot of folks – there’s no expectation that she be in a restaurant-ready outfit every evening, but to be at the stage of “I could crawl in to bed at any second, nobody can see me like this, even strangers at the door” is a different level.

            2. londonedit*

              I don’t think anyone’s saying the only way of having a ‘pleasant evening’ is by going out. That’s definitely not the case. But some of us do sometimes go out after work, and it sounds like the OP’s husband would like to have the option of doing so, and it sounds like his perception is that if the OP is in PJs and wouldn’t even open the door to someone in what they’re wearing, that’s all chance of going anywhere scuppered. It’s a communication thing between the two of them, of course, but that’s where I think the husband is coming from.

              1. Jaydee*

                But if he gets home significantly later than she does and he wants to go out spontaneously on a weeknight, he could at least call her or text her before he leaves work to ask if she’s interested. If she says “no” then she’s not interested. If she says “yes” then she’s has time to change clothes before he gets home. Problem solved.

                As many others have said here, this is a communication problem. Maybe they have different ideas of what a relaxing evening looks like or how far in advance you should make plans to go out or run an errand. Maybe they have different understandings of what wearing different clothes means. Maybe there are cultural differences. Maybe there’s an ask vs. guess difference. We are all just speculating and projecting. We don’t know because they don’t appear to have actually talked about the issue!

      2. JM60*

        If pajamas are much more comfortable to the OP than jeans or other alternative, then sacrificing comfort for hours each day may not be “a small thing”.

        1. doreen*

          I think part of it is perhaps difficulty imagining pajamas that have no “I can wear this outside” counterpart in terms of comfort. My pajama pants are no more comfortable than sweatpants or yoga pants or lounge pants , a pajama T shirt is no more comfortable than any other T shirt , my nightshirts are no more comfortable than any stretchy casual dress the right length. What’s different about pajamas is what makes them obviously pajamas and therefore unsuitable to wear out – the particular button-up shirt that only appears in pajamas , the matchiness ( I have pants, a robe and a shirt all in the same pattern – obviously pajamas), certain patterns like sheep, sayings like “Sleep is my biggest hobby”

      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        This goes both ways — OP’s spouse is doing something that OP doesn’t like (judging OP’s choice of clothing after work) and it’s a small change for the spouse to stop criticizing OP. Why would the spouse continue to give OP grief over something that matters to OP?

      4. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

        Yeah, OP has an easy way of making her husband happy by simply wearing yoga pants and a t shirt for a few hours a day.

      5. Admin Lackey*

        I’m glad that works for you! But I know a bunch of guys who would use that to run roughshod over the women in their lives. It’s such a small thing, why doesn’t he just get over it?

      6. not nice, don't care*

        If something bugs my husband (I’m actually a survivor of 2 hetero marriages and happily married to a woman now) he can take a hike. It’s a small thing to respect my need to relax after working all day. And by relax I mean continue doing household chores until bedtime.
        Stop enabling dudes.

    6. Little Owl*

      My husband does this and he is also a teacher! (mostly of the 8-11 age group). I don’t exactly get it, but then, I work from home so I am already usually in leggings and a non-underwired bra for the day!

      1. I'm great at doing stuff*

        I am a teacher as well, and I change into “in between clothes” or play clothes as someone said above. Teaching is so exhausting you feel like you need a real separation from the work day, and changing clothes helps with that. Also at least with younger children, you might have any sort of mixture of art materials and other compounds on them.

      2. ferrina*

        I think the “teacher” component makes a difference. Being a teacher is an energy-intense job. You have to be “on” for any time when a student or parent might see you. You are constantly monitoring students, looking to redirect or shut down anything before it becomes an issue. You have a plan and a necessary to-do list, and you’re also improvising it based on an interactive audience of 20+. Then you have to grade and do your lesson plan for the next week. Your brain is constantly on almost all day, you’re physically moving around (and crouching up and down if you are working with younger students), and it’s exhausting!

        I’ve done teaching and I’ve done corporate management; teaching is more exhausting. It’s not that corporate management can’t be stressful and taxing, but teaching requires high mental and physical energy (especially if you are new, especially if you have a large class, especially if you are working with students that need extra attention for whatever reason). I used to come home from teaching and fall onto the couch for several hours, then go to bed. When I switched to working in an office, I had a lot more energy for doing things like grocery shopping and housework.

        1. Katydid*

          I am with you here! Working in education, especially the younger ages, is exhausting. My friends who work in education are frequently in bed very very early. So perhaps the husband isn’t really understanding or on board with the fact that during the week, she doesn’t want to do anything and is ready for bed when he gets home. If she gets to school at 7am and home at 4 and he doesn’t get home until 7 or 8, she very well could be heading to bed. Obviously the answer is for them to communicate a little better about this, even if it is to say – I want to go out to eat once a week and the OP deciding if that works. But last minute plans on a weeknight – I’m way too old for that nonsense.

          1. I talk about motorcycles too much!*

            Thank you for this! The difference in schedules was the first thing I thought of too.

            I also come home and put PJs on at the end of the day. I am not going back on the spur of the moment unless it is something particularly enticing. I am a huge introvert; Hubby massive extrovert.

            Would he love it if I were willing to head out and do fun things until 3a? YES!

            However, I get up at 6a and am typically working by 7. He lounges in bed until 11a and doesn’t get home until 11p after a 4-5 hour work shift. He is just going to have to adapt or head out with friends (which I wholeheartedly encourage!) I am winding down and heading to bed for my 6hrs of sleep when gets home.

            If he wants to start getting up early for brunch or a walk with me before the day starts, great! Otherwise he is going to have to accept these differences as he knew about them well before asking me to be his wife. :)

    7. Sharpie*

      I’m lucky enough that I can wear comfortable clothes to work and don’t feel the need to change once I get home, unless I’ve worn one specific pair of trousers to work. Having said that, changing into comfortable clothes once I’m in was ingrained in me since I was a kid – we wear uniform to school and as we didn’t have much money for new uniform if anything got torn, Mum used to make us change out of uniform into regular clothes once we got home, which also underscored ‘these clothes are for this thing ‘.

      If I were in OP’s shoes, I would buy myself some comfortable lounge wear that isn’t PJs for the time of day between getting in the house and getting ready for bed. Best of both worlds, keeps everything cleaner for longer and you’ll still be in a fit state to pop to shops if you need to.

    8. Storm in a teacup*

      I’m also #teampyjamas when I get home from work if I know I’m not heading back out.
      I can cook in them and lounge on the sofa before bed. If I have a gym class or have errands then as soon as I’m home.
      Mainly I feel weird not wearing a bra under normal clothes (even loungewear) and that bra needs to come off as soon as I’m home for the night.

      1. Adultier adult*

        Exactly this

        I am a teacher and my sweats/big tshirt (my jammies) are on immediately. If we decide to go elsewhere later, I’ll put on clothes again- but I don’t want my work clothes & my bra a second longer. Plus all those kid germs- don’t want them in my home!

      2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        Honestly, it’s ridiculous to not be able to wear what you want in your own home. It’s the place you’re supposed to feel comfortable and safe and if that means wearing pajamas- at any time of the day- that’s what you should do.

        1. ferrina*

          Yeah, I’m giving the husband some side-eye.
          Also, the rule of management applies here- measure on performance, not appearance. If he’s frustrated that he’s taking on the majority of the housework because LW doesn’t do housework after changing into pajamas (this is a hypothetical, not based on the letter), that’s a good conversation to have. Not saying he would automatically be right; teaching is exhausting, so LW might be up for only a certain amount. But conversations about housework division are really important. But if he just doesn’t like that she’s not wearing something nicer, that’s all about appearances that don’t actually affect him. Is he jealous that she gets home from work before him, and the pajamas are a symbol of that? If so, he should volunteer at a kids event for a few hours and see how he’s feeling at the end of it. Even if LW technically works less hours, it’s a very different kind of hours.

          1. Bird names*

            Yes, especially to your last point. If I compare working food service with office work, the former is way more taxing. You’re usually on your feet the entire shift, have to pay attention to multiple things at once and often make decisions quickly. I can work more hours in a day in an office job and still not reach the exhaustion I experienced in food service after a part-time shift.

    9. Ellis Bell*

      Another teacher here who changes into pajamas, straight away. The only way I have of describing it is, it’s like exiting stage left after being on stage for hours, taking off a costume, and putting on a dressing room robe. You don’t breathe fully until it happens. There definitely is an issue with going out to do errands and other things, which is why I buy outside clothes that I would never wear in the classroom but which have the exact same softness and texture as pajamas and slippers, like hoodies, leggings, Uggs. If I was going out somewhere dressier than that, I would shower again anyway (but, on a school night? The phrase “no tired like teacher tired” applies). I also mix and match, so I often wear a hoodie with pajama bottoms; this means I only have to change one thing on the bottom to go outdoors. My partner isn’t fooled though; he knows which of my hoodies and sweatshirts and jogging pants are my “pajamas”. I just read this letter to him and he said “Your pajamas go on first thing in the morning straight after your shower sometimes”. It’s the half term holidays.

      1. I'm great at doing stuff*

        Yes!! You describe it perfectly. We need a real boundary between work and home.

      2. WellRed*

        This makes so much sense, I don’t know why OP (and other comments) can’t find that compromise.

        1. Dahlia*

          Because OP and other commenters aren’t Ellis Bell. That’s great for Ellis Bell, but that’s not what OP or other commenters want to do. OP and other commenters don’t need to “compromise” their wardrobes for their spouses.

      3. ferrina*

        I’ve never heard the phrase “no tired like teacher tired”, but I’ve lived it and it’s TRUE.

    10. anon teacher*

      Another teacher chiming in: I absolutely change into pajamas the minute I get home unless I know we’re going out that evening. That said, we usually aren’t going out; between my wife’s commute and how early I have to get up, going out after work to do Something Else is the kind of thing that gets scheduled 2-3 weeks in advance.

      Fortunately, my wife and I are on the same page about this – it might be worth having a conversation with your husband about what you each would consider an ‘ideal’ week in terms of going out, staying in, etc.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I really agree on having a talk between spouses on what the ideal week would look like.

        It could well be that he doesn’t want to go out that often, but he wants to feel like it would be an option. And coming home to someone already in pajamas feels like a signal not to ask them for more effort.

        1. Anon Teacher*

          I truly can’t decide which is more foreign to me:
          – wanting to Go Out And Do Things After Work multiple times per week
          – treating a conversation with your spouse like a hostage negotiation

          And yet apparently these are common positions, judging from these comments! Truly, life is a rich tapestry.

          1. Sillysaurus*

            A lot of my Going Out After Work things are routine. Run club, trivia night, etc. All of these things are within walking distance or a very short drive. I never stay out late since I’m usually waking up to run at 4:30 the next morning. The spontaneous stuff is simple, like walking to food cart pods or the local bar. I do think this is all pretty common!

            No idea why people can’t just talk to their spouses though, that’s bizarre.

    11. Glad to get home*

      I was doing this for a while, changing into loungy/pjs as soon as I got home from work, and I have to say that while the mindset shift felt good at first, it ended up being bad for my depressive self. Someone was talking about leaving shoes on in the house to stay “up and at ’em” and I feel like it’s true for me.

    12. KC*

      Exactly! When I worked in a corporate environment, I usually changed into casual but presentable clothes once I got home, so I could still go out and run errands or catch drinks with friends. Once I started teaching, I would run my errands on the way home so I could change into unpresentably casual (but not pajamas) clothes most days because my social battery was depleted and I was DONE. It was both a treat to myself and a signal to my partner that I was not that interested in going out to see friends that night.

    13. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

      yeah, I don’t want to sit in office clothes for several hours… they’re uncomfortable, and I don’t love sitting on my furniture with things I’ve been on the subway with. but a whole second outfit for the day would mean a whole second outfit for the laundry, which feels a little wasteful, and I don’t want to face the laundry battle Royale more often than I already have to.

      1. Chirpy*

        I tend to wear my “second outfit” at least twice before washing. Assuming I’m still decently clean when I get home from work, the after-work clothes are really only getting worn for a partial day, and I rewear jeans multiple times even if I don’t rewear a Tshirt.

    14. HannahS*

      Mr. S and I change out of our clothes into comfy clothes, which is usually sweatpants or jeans and a t-shirt.

      My immediate follow-up question is, well ARE you refusing to do anything else? Sweatpants and a t-shirt are pyjama-adjacent, but we’ll still go out.

    15. Lab Snep*

      I have been a homebody forever. When I get home I usually don’t want to leave and someone getting on me for wearing Pyjamas (WHICH ARE NOT CURSED AND CANNOT BE REMOVED) when I could easily change if something needed to be done, I would just continue wearing jammies. (I do admit I have some mild pathological demand avoidance when it comes to stuff like this though)

      1. Bird names*

        I can already see it before me, the new blockbuster of the summer: THE WOMAN IN THE CURSED PYJAMAS, second only to The Iron Mask.

    16. AnonInCanada*

      Exactly. Maybe OP#1 should get into her wedding gown so hubby won’t get so uptight next time. How absurd!

    17. JMC*

      I don’t understand why this is even a question. Do what you want when you get home, wear what you want, and if hubby doesn’t like it oh well! Doesn’t matter.

    18. Spooky*

      I feel like this might be a generation thing. Pretty sure most under-40s, myself included, exclusively wear pajamas or adjacent clothes around the house- athleisure or sweatpants, etc. Sitting around the couch in jeans or other outside clothes would just be unnecessary and less comfortable!

    19. Dark Macadamia*

      Also a teacher, I change into comfy leggings when I get home (4-430ish) and pajamas after I shower in the evening (730-8ish).

      I do get a little bit of “given up on the day” feeling if I hop straight to PJs but it’s mostly that I’m too lazy to get back into “real” clothes if I need to run errands or go outside, so a presentable but snug transition outfit is perfect.

    20. Sharkie*

      It also depends on what is PJ’s! Is it full sleep set? Cookie monster pants? I get home and change into sweats/ or those silky sleep shorts and a sleep shirt (Oversized tee). Those are typically my “PJs”. If i need to run to the store I will throw on a pair of leggings or just go in my sweats. I feel like it is normal to change into comfy clothes and out of “hard pants” (pants that have a button/ zipper) as soon as possible!

    21. AnotherOne*

      I have this big thing about indoor clothes and outdoor clothes. I won’t lounge on my couch in outdoor clothes so the minute I come home from work, it’s shower and change.

      It does tend to mean that I don’t want to go back out frequently but I’ve acknowledged by the time I’ve gotten home that I’m generally just done for the day. I’m ready to not be “on.”

    22. skunklet*

      I’m a messy person – esp a messy eater, so of course I change into ‘daytime pajamas’ or loungewear when I get home – those close are ok to get messy, work clothes aren’t.
      Ftr I also shower at night, so I am not in my ‘final’ PJs….

      Maybe this is the difference too?

    23. Ostrich Herder*

      My workplace is casual – jeans are fine, and what I wear most days. Before I lived with my partner, my roommates were absolutely GOBSMACKED by the fact that I continued to wear jeans until I was ready to go to bed, at which point I changed into something comfy – I don’t really have dedicated pajamas, but running shorts or sweats or something. I assumed that would end when I moved in with my partner.

      Nope! When I get home, if I don’t change, he’ll ignore it for a bit, but if I’m still in jeans after dinner, he’ll say something like “Wouldn’t you be happier in comfy pants?”

      What none of them understand is that ALL my pants are comfy pants. I don’t have any diagnosed sensory issues, but I’m sensitive about what’s touching me, and as a rule I don’t buy anything I couldn’t fall asleep in. This includes jeans, and even bras.

      This led to additional mockery when I still lived with roommates, because occasionally they’d catch me having fallen asleep in my jeans, but that’s another story.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, sometime in my 30s I decided I was done with uncomfortable clothes except for very special occasions. So even my office clothes (business casual – polo/turtleneck and pants) have to be comfortable, because I end up sitting in them for hours. I stopped buying stuff that was not flexible, or that required careful posture to avoid wardrobe malfunction. Nowadays, my jeans are slightly stretchy, so I can fall asleep in them without waking up with weird marks.

    25. iglwif*

      When I worked in an office, I used to change into comfy clothes when I got home! My office wasn’t super formal but it was formal enough that I did not want to spend the evening in my work clothes. I didn’t usually go right to pyjamas but note that “usually” isn’t “never”! My spouse still works in an office and he is absolutely out of his “business casual” and into sweats and a t-shirt within 2 minutes of walking in the door.

      I feel like the thing about pyjamas, specifically, is that they imply a commitment to staying in that comfy clothes don’t necessarily. (For instance, if I’m wearing sweats and a bunnyhug, I am fully prepared for eventualities such as walking the dog, picking up a carton of milk, taking the compost down to the green bin in the garbage room, etc. If I’m wearing pyjamas, I am in for the night.)

      However I also feel like OP’s spouse is being weird about this and should stop.

    26. My Work Mask Is Cracking*

      I would say make sure you shower off the day of *ahem* students being nearby, open-mouthed coughing and all of the other disgusting things that comes with being around hundreds of people every day. But yeah, as a former student who wore a uniform, work clothes and play clothes are clutch.

      When I get into PJs it feels like the day is done. But I don’t get into PJs until after I shower off the day.

    27. Goldenrod*

      OP3, I literally CANNOT get into my PJs fast enough after I get home from work!

      So it’s not just you! My husband is sometimes shocked at how quickly I can change–he looks away from a moment, and there I am. ;p

      Like your husband, he prefers to stay “formal” for the cocktail hour, but I think he knows better than to try to change my behavior. I’m pretty hard core about it.

    28. Tiger Snake*

      The thing that probably actually is worth flagging is “after long/tough days”. Not every day.

      Pajamas aren’t the same as play clothes. Pajamas mean you cannot go out and limit what you do around the house. You can’t do laundry or weed the garden, but you also can’t clean up and you’re restricted in terms of cooking or you’ll make your bed dirty at the end of the day. It’s not just homebody, it’s a declaration that you’re not going to do anything more that day at all. There is no sorting out chores or helping around the house with all the everyday stuff that come with being an adult. It is a complete shut out and veg out for the entire rest of the day.

      And yes, once in a while that’s fine. The vacuuming can wait one day. But if you’re doing it a lot, then it needs to be done and you’re not going to so someone else has to. If you’re doing that every day, they you’re throwing all this extra work onto your partner and not participating in being a part of the household. And that’s very unfair.

      1. DisgruntledPelican*

        You have a lot of opinions about pajamas I bet a lot of other people don’t ascribe to. I would literally do everything you have listed here in my pajamas.

      2. iglwif*

        I’m not sure what kind of pyjamas you’re picturing, but I would do (and have done) all of those things in pyjamas! (Exception: weeding the garden, because I live in a third-floor flat and don’t have a garden.) I have also bathed the dog in pyjamas, done freelance work in pyjamas, put together IKEA furniture in pyjamas, changed the sheets in pyjamas, cleaned the toilet in pyjamas …

        (Most of these, however, are not things that I would be doing after work anyway — I obviously cook and wash dishes on weeknights, but I’m certainly not regularly vacuuming, doing laundry, dusting, cleaning toilets, etc. Those are weekend tasks, unless something unusual happens that requires cleanup.)

    29. RamonaThePest*

      I was exactly the same way as a teacher, and the same even as a retired teacher! I told my WFH spouse (who wore sweat pants to work) that he was in no position to judge when I put on clothes with elastic waists.

    30. sleephardpartynever*

      If I don’t have other plans I go immediately to comfy clothes which I call my “pre-jamas”. Pre-jamas consist of a not-underwire-bra and some assortment of clothing that could be described as athleisure if you were feeling generous. It’s enough that if I need to be seen no one will audibly gasp but not to put together that I don’t get the occasional side-eye.

  2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    #TeamPajamas

    No compromise. No surrender.

    If my spouse wants to answer the door or run to the store, he CAN.

    But not me. Bra’s off and I’m in for the night.

    1. Language Lover*

      I’m not quite at sleepwear but what I wear after I get home from work resembles Mrs. Roper from Three’s Company.

      If someone comes up with something amazing, I can easily change back into “going out” clothes but I see no sense of being any other than super comfy if I’m staying in.

      1. BioBrains*

        This! “I see no sense of being any other than super comfy if I’m staying in”.

        Life is too short to not be comfortable when you are at home/alone. For me that also means that on some weekend days I never even make it into decent clothes, although by slob wear/home clothes are somewhere in between lounge wear and pajamas so I can also walk outside in them. That’s never an issue (apart from that one time when I ran into my boss at the grocery store). For the record, I am single and an introvert homebody, which helps.

      2. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

        Yeah — I wonder if there is an easy solution here which is OP investing in some comfy ‘around the house’ pieces that are not explicitly for sleeping.

        I often switch to loungewear but it’s not the same as PJs, so I can still pop out if needed.

        1. Coffee Protein Drink*

          There is such a variety of loungewear out there–something good that came out of Covid lockdown. Personally, I’m always happy to spend money on it.

          LW still needs the husband to understand that she’s available to do things and is perfectly willing to easily change clothes to go out.

          1. RamonaThePest*

            Yeah, I think a good compromise is something that lets Partner know you’re still up for going out, like leggings and a cute shirt–and the willingness to change if necessary.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Caftan and tunics and muumuus and dressing gowns need an update for the 21st century.

        1. Anna*

          Muumuus are still in! You can generally find a sack-like dress for any season of the year. No, they won’t be flattering, but they’re perfect for around the house when you can’t stand to have anything constraining your waist anymore. I have about 5 of them and change into those after work. If it’s cold I’ll toss on a pair of extra comfy leggings. On bad days, it’s my rattiest muumuu with ratty joggers underneath.

      5. SometimesCharlotte*

        My husband has said to me “since you’ve changed does that mean you don’t want to go out for dinner?” And I have said “I can put my clothes back on!” People act like changing clothes is so hard!

    2. Noodles*

      Same. I put PJs on. But it’s not like then I immediately veg out. I cook in pjs, do chores in pjs, and if I need to go out I… throw on outside clothes! (Or if I’m feeling lazy I just wear pj oants and a tshirt to the store.) No way is my husband dictating what I wear. If he wants to wear less comfortable clothes, he can. Not me.

      1. Tacky Halloween Decor*

        And then there’s me, who doesn’t actually find PJ’s all that comfortable and is weirded out by this cultural narrative we have that anything not resembling a few rectangles hastily sewn together is “uncomfortable” ^^’

        …but that is my prerogative, and wearing your PJ’s the minute you get home is yours. As long as you get done what you need to get done and are comfortable doing so I don’t see what the issue is.

        And LW: it does sound like you and your husband may need to have a talk about this. Not in a “omg divorce this man if he doesn’t agree” way, but just in a “hey this is a thing and we need to communicate” way. Sit down and really listen to one another on this.

        1. AJ*

          It’s probably entirely psychological, but I CANNOT wear the clothing I sleep in during the waking hours of the day unless I am sick. If I do, I overheat (even if my sleepwear is a cotton dress, and the clothing I change into is ALSO a cotton dress.) And I cannot go to bed in clothing I wore during the day, or I will feel disgusting.

          The first time I found out people wore pajamas to lounge at home I was baffled.

          1. Myrin*

            Yeah, same (minust the overheating). I’m surprised to see the majority of commenters (as I’m writing this comment, at least) say that they do change into pyjamas straight away.
            I wonder if part of this is also cultural – I’ve actually talked about this with people before and the general consensus always seemed to be “change into more comfortable clothes but NOT pyjamas, which are for bed” with a – to me – surprising minority of people who don’t actually change out of their work clothes at all.
            (Of course there are people like OP here, too – my sister is one of them – but at least in the circles I’ve talked about this before, it seems to be rare.)

            1. Harper the Other One*

              Weirdly, for me PJs in the evening does not trigger the “I’m sick” connotation! But it does trigger “ah, the day is done and I can truly relax” after about 6pm and a way that jeans or sweats don’t.

            2. Inkhorn*

              “A surprising minority of people who don’t actually change out of their work clothes at all.”

              *waves*

              Writing this while settled on my couch for the evening in a blouse and pencil skirt, wondering if I’m the only non-changer in the world (or at least this digital corner of it).

              Maybe I’m just peculiar in finding office clothes comfortable?

              1. Foxgloves*

                You are not! I’m the same! I’ve always been like this though- I never felt the need to change out of my school uniform after school either. I just don’t have comfort issues with more formal/ structured clothing/ bras etc, and feel really gross if I spend too much time in loungewear. I even wear jeans to work from home! Completely get that I’m in the minority, but fortunately, my husband is in the same minority with me :)

              2. Turquoisecow*

                I might be the only woman in the world who finds wearing a bra comfortable. When I first started I would wear them to sleep until my mom told me this was “weird.” Might be because I don’t do underwires. When I did, I’d take them off immediately when I got home. But the wires always came out and stabbed me, so I stopped

                1. doreen*

                  I wouldn’t exactly call it “comfortable” but there have been times in my life where I was more comfortable wearing one and even slept wearing one.

                2. Jaydee*

                  Yeah, the lack of underwire is 100% it. I have some bralettes that I’ll sleep in and often find more comfortable than being completely braless. I have slept in an underwire bra before and do not recommend it. But mine are so big that they end up staying in place while my boobs try to shift around (because gravity) and then it feels kind of like trying to sleep while wearing a cardboard box or something. Maybe someone who requires a less intense level of structure and support would find it less uncomfortable.

                3. Seconds*

                  You’re not the only woman who finds a bra comfortable, no.

                  And yes, I find it comfortable to sleep even in my underwire bras.

                  I almost don’t own loungewear. I am more comfortable (physically!) in clothing with a waistband.

                4. Waiting on the bus*

                  I used to wear my underwire to sleep! I did it until my favourite bras where so threadbare that the wire would poke through while turning in bed, at which point I stopped wearing them at night.

                  I find wearing bras far more comfortable than going without, so even when I’m just lounging at home all day I still wear a bra. and at least sweatpants, if not jeans, because I’m also a strictly “PJ are for sleeping” person. I strongly dislike wearing my sleep wear during the day; even if I’m sick I’ll change into a bra, sweatpants and a fresh shirt just to feel better.

                5. Myrin*

                  You are not alone! I literally always wear bras (and solely underwire ones, at that) and I’ll never understand why so many people find them uncomfortable because I basically don’t register they’re there at all. I do notice when they aren’t there, though, and I absolutely hate that (and I’m not busty at all, so it’s not really about weight and only somewhat about jiggliness).

                6. SimonTheGreyWarden*

                  I sleep in bras. My (large) chest gets in the way and feels like it flops around when I roll over, and I already have issues with my back if I sleep in one position for too long. I’ll even sleep in underwire bras, though it’s not my preference. But I’m lazy – I’ll put on leggings and a tank before bed with my bra, and that same bra and leggings (and sometimes the tank top) are what I wear under my work clothes the next day (I tend to wear dresses or skirts and like to wear something under them, a holdover from my Catholic school uniform days I suppose).

              3. Marion Ravenwood*

                I used to be this way before I had a cat. Then it was easier to just change into house clothes so I wasn’t spending a fortune on lint rollers.

              4. Filosofickle*

                I didn’t find office/school clothes uncomfortable when I was thin! (Though I wouldn’t have kept on a pencil skirt, because I like to sit weird.) Back then if I changed it was just to keep “good” clothes in good condition, as I spill a lot. Now, in fat middle age it’s a very different story. Except the spilling part, that remains true :D

                But I am still more comfortable in a (non-wired) bra and underwear than without them.

            3. SarahKay*

              Except for the very rare occasions I’ve worn a suit to work then I tend not to change out of work clothes. Since my workplace is fairly relaxed in its dress code then for me my work clothes are comfy enough to wear all day.
              And pyjamas (or, in my case, either a night-shirt or long t-shirt, depending on the season) are for bedtime only, at least for me. I know intellectually that people *do* find it comfy to wear them round the house, but it’s *so* not for me.

            4. Seeking Second Childhood*

              i would guess that not changing out of work clothes correlates with ultra-casual workplaces like mine. Unless there’s a visit from external contacts, even jeans and tshirts are acceptable.

              Part of our low-key dress code says no rips or stains, so when a garment gets damaged I save it for chores & play — and I change out of the “office stuff” to make marinara or do yard work.

          2. KateM*

            Yes, same to me – I don’t want to wear to bed what I have been sitting on floor or whatever.
            I have really four pairs of pants in everyday use, ha. Pajama pants for sleeping, work pants for going to work or town or other official place, home pants, and then “just going to nearby grocery store” pants. The last two share the same top, though.

          3. NotAManager*

            You’re not alone! I have to be basically incapacitated to stay in pajamas all day, it just makes me feel miserable/grody/more sick than I already am. I prefer a more “dressed” style day-to-day which is probably part of it and I don’t own any sweatpants/leggings, but yeah the idea of putting on my pajamas immediately when I get home is depressing.

          4. PlatypusWonder*

            For me, I sleep in underwear and a light t-shirt so “pjs after work” are really lounge clothes that aren’t my slacks and button up. Even if I call them pjs, I’m not sleeping in them!

        2. Emmy Noether*

          I’m also team keep my day clothes at home. My #1 reason is actually that I find changing clothes really annoying, so the thought of “just” changing back if I have to go out again is a definite NO. I’d rather go buy milk in lounge clothes if that’s the options.

          Also, my dayclothes are not really less comfortable than my pajamas, and I don’t find the same clothes comfortable for lying down and for sitting/moving around anyway. For example, I can’t stand anything skintight for sleeping, but I like it for movement.

          And for pajamas more specifically, I’d worry about getting them dirty if I wore them while doing things around the house.

          These are all my personal preferences, though. Other members of my household can do whatever they like (as long as I’m not the one who has to change their clothes).

          1. Arrietty*

            I also hate changing and wear fairly comfortable clothes during the day – I do take off my work-branded tshirt on days when I’ve been wearing that and need to wear it again before I’ll have time to wash it, and in that case I either swap for a regular tshirt or straight into a pyjama top. Then again, I don’t have any kind of evening social life and shopping is done on the way home. Once toddler is home for the day, we aren’t going out again.

        3. Thegreatprevaricator*

          Ha yes! I don’t like to wear pyjamas as lounge wear, it feels wrong. But I recognise some people like to change clothes to signal that transition and change of mode. Frankly I think we should bring back the housecoat..

          1. The Prettiest Curse*

            Yes, the housecoat is a clothing item that is overdue for reinvention as something cool!

            1. noname today*

              I use Lands End beach coverup dresses for just this sort of thing. We live in an apartment building and need to go down to the lobby for our food deliveries, out into the hall/down to the basement to throw out the garbage/recycling, etc. I could wear my pjs to do this, but the beach coverup and flip flops—my version of a house coat—is my go-to choice. They come in long sleeves, short sleeves and sleeveless, and I wear them all, depending on the season/temp.

              Hubby did the same before he retired, but used work out shorts and tanks instead of the beach coverup.

        4. Broadway Duchess*

          I’m with you on this. I do change out of work clothes into play clothes, but I cannot imagine putting on pajamas at 4 pm as comfortable. It’s a psychological thing — for me, PJs are for sleeping only. But, we live in an area with a lot of walkable pubs and restaurants nearby, so popping a couple of doors for Italian is a norm for us.

      2. I ate tacos for lunch?*

        I’m Team PJs. I work 10 hour days in middle of the road office professional attire. One of the first things I do is change into my pjs. I am not ready for bed but ready to relax and make the transition from “on” to being home. It makes me feel comfortable and cozy. Granted, I live by myself and my cats don’t care what I wear :)

    3. Nodramalama*

      Lol I think this might be the spouse’s point which I suspect is probably a bigger issue of mismatched expectations. I suspect there is a larger issue where spouse wants the ability to go out to dinner/go to the movies/go to the park etc after work and feels like the pjs is a signal they are not willing to do so. Whether that IS the signal is a question only LW can answer

      1. Lord Millet, the most noble among the five grains*

        Yes, I’m wondering whether there are some other signals that are broadcasting “don’t want to engage with this day anymore.”

        Like, are you vegging out the rest of the night?

        Or are you engaging with your husband in ways you both enjoy? Are you helping to make dinner and keep the place tidy? Are you willing to go to the store in your pajamas if the household needs something? Are you open to evening activities outside the house?

        My partner inexplicably has more energy than me after the work day. He often starts in on cooking projects that take several hours. But even on days I need two hours to veg, I make it clear I’m still up for interacting, doing chores, going out if needed, etc. I have to be proactive about communicating that willingness, because if he sees me on the couch looking at my phone, he may interpret that as unwillingness to engage.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          When Harry and Charlotte moved in together on SATC, she eventually asked him to give her half an hour in the evening pretending she wasn’t there, so she could do her weird person-alone-in-apartment behavior. Which I thought acknowledged that line between not wanting to be an “on” companion at all times, but putting a limit on how long that was reasonable.

      2. RLC*

        I’m thinking same, my husband nearly always arrived home from work long before I did, and was often in sweatshirt and joggers by the time I got home. I usually assumed it was an “in for the night” signal until I finally asked him. Nope, he just wanted to be comfortable and would happily change back to work clothes for going out.

        1. ferrina*

          You handled it in the mature way- having a conversation, then taking your husband at his word. You had a miscommunication around what signal sweatshirt/joggers meant, cleared it up, and proceeded with life.

      3. JM60*

        If that were the case, they could just ask their spouse about going out rather than assuming that they don’t want to go out just because of the clothes they’re wearing at home.

        I always wear shorts when at home, unless I’m at home for just a few minutes. If I get home in the winter, while planning on going out somewhere in a couple hours, I change into shorts/tee shirt. Just because I’m in my home/comfort clothes doesn’t mean I’m magical locked into those clothes. I can just change back.

        1. nodramalama*

          that would be why i said whether or not it is a signal that LW doesn’t want to go out, is a question only LW can answer.

      4. Adultier adult*

        I’m not a homebody but after teaching all day I DONT want to go anywhere else. Thinking about a late dinner out or the movies during the week cracks me up. I would be asleep before the intro song is over.

        3. ferrina*

          Yes, especially when I was in a new classroom/curriculum. It’s intense.

          I don’t teach anymore, but when I did, I would collapse after work and then do a housework binge on the weekend. My partner would get home later than I did, but would have a lot more energy since they sat at a desk all day and could generally focus on one thing at a time.

        4. Anna*

          Me too! It took me into my 30s to stop pressuring myself to do things in the evenings. I thought it’s what is required of adults. But I’m so much happier if I stay in after work. After being “on” for 10 hours, all I can muster after work is making dinner, washing dishes, taking care of anything necessary (ex: call mom, walk dog, cat box), then vegging out. Social life has to wait til the weekend.

    4. But what to call me?*

      100%. I come home for the day, jammies go on. Many of my relatives do the same thing. It’s not like I want to wear my work clothes around the house anyway once they’ve been out in the world, and it’s not like I can’t change back into daytime clothes if I need to do something that requires them. I guess I could have a whole separate outfit for wandering around the house in the evening, but why bother with the extra laundry? I have nice jammies, they work just fine for anything I might do around the house, and I can’t think when the last time was that I unexpectedly had to answer the door. It’s weird to me that this is weird to some people.

        1. biobotb*

          And the number of people who find putting clothes on so onerous they refuse to believe that someone in pjs would happily (and quickly, and easily!) put real pants and a bra back on if their partner wanted to go somewhere that evening.

        2. Timothy (TRiG)*

          In my case, it’s not virtue-signalling. It’s confusion. I mean, you do you, but I cannot fathom wearing to bed anything that has already been worn around the house. (I mean, I generally don’t wear anything to bed anyway, and go directly from shower to bed nice and clean, but perhaps that’s just me.) My partner will occasionally go to bed fully dressed in the afternoon to relax, which makes me uncomfortable.

    5. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      I get home, the bra gets pinged across the room (and the cat chases it but he’s weird), the work clothes come off and I wear something comfy. You’re lucky if it’s pyjamas, most times I just wrap my wonderful floor length snuggly robe around me and get a cuppa.

    6. Roland*

      That’s fine and all but I think it’s very understandable why it would be frustrating for your spouse to declare this every workday at 4pm.

      1. Malarkey01*

        Yeah this is where I’m really bumping on this. It’s 4 pm, and she’s so casual she can’t open the door this isn’t legging and tshirt territory.

        I would be very concerned if I left for the day and my spouse was in pjs and I came home and they were in their nightly pjs and it wasn’t an occasional long day but every day.

        1. Bella Ridley*

          My ex was this way and yeah, it was frustrating. To come home every day to someone signaling “no I can’t go to the store, I’m done for the day” or “no I can’t answer the door, I’m done for the day” or what have you is exhausting. Every day? It does get old.

    7. JM60*

      I’d argue that there’s nothing wrong with answering the door in your pajamas. It might be a little unusual, but delivery drivers are unlikely to care.

      I don’t see what the problem is with changing into pajamas right away when getting home.

      1. Allonge*

        Yes!

        I do have separate PJs (for sleeping) and loungewear / sweatpants etc for just chilling at home, but I really don’t think anyone (other than my mother maybe) would be able to reliably tell which one falls into which category, and they cover the same bits of me.

        No postal worker / delivery person ever cared a bit.

      2. doreen*

        It depends on the person and what they are wearing ( my husband would absolutely answer the door in tighty-whities) but this OP specifies that he husband doesn’t dress down to the point where he wouldn’t want to answer the door – which kind of implies that the OP wouldn’t want to answer the door in whatever they are wearing.

        1. biobotb*

          Or that the *husband* wouldn’t answer the door wearing what the OP is wearing. If the OP really were welded to the couch after she put her pjs on, what would she be writing in about? The husband would be correct and there would be nothing to adjudicate.

          1. doreen*

            I don’t know if the OP is welded to the couch or just won’t cross the threshold or even if they are willing to change and go out – but there is no situation ever where you can assume “well, if she was welded to the couch the husband would be correct and there would be nothing to write about”. Because there are people who don’t think the husband is correct even if she is welded to the couch.

    8. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

      If my husband slapped on PJs and refused to run errands or otherwise leave the house after he got home every single work day, I would be pretty steaming – especially if he got home at 4pm.

      In my house that would be offloading a lot of dog/child/house maintenance soley to me.

      I think this question hinges a lot on what OP and her spouse DO in the evening and what they both want to do.

      1. Allonge*

        I totally agree that it’s a lot less about the PJs and more about what this means for what LW is open to do in the evenings.

        I get being tired; that said if all work evenings are out for any kind of activity, that can be a burden for the others in the household. Best to discuss with this in mind!

    9. Kate*

      I also work early hours and am usually home by mid-afternoon, but I have “around the house” clothes that I change into. For a couple of reasons – for one, I think if I put my PJs on the second I got home I’d be inclined to do nothing but sit on the couch till bedtime. Plus I think I’d feel like my PJs were dirty if I wore them all afternoon/evening. I also spend a lot of my free time outside, often working on yard projects so that would be impractical. But also things like cleaning, cooking, etc. that I think would be weird in PJs. My around the house clothes are just an older pair of loose jeans and a t-shirt. I have a spot where I keep them so I can re-wear several days in a row before I throw them in the wash. Plus if my husband comes home and feels like grabbing dinner out I can just do that – I will sometimes change the shirt depending on how old that particular day’s one is, but that’s it.

    10. Chickflick*

      same here. I also don’t see why it’s bad to be a homebody. I got up early, I went to work that day, I talked to a bunch of the public, I got library germs on my clothes…I am done. I go home, I do pet care and whatever other small chores need to be done, and then I don’t need to leave again

      Unless I go somewhere on the way home, I’m not leaving again once I get home. it sounds like OP is also tired after work and maybe doesn’t have a lot of motivation to go out on work nights either, and I don’t see what’s wrong with this.

      1. Nodramalama*

        The issue is that clearly there is a disconnect with LWs husband. If you want to be a homebody and never leave the house after 4pm, and your partner wants to leave the house, that’s an issue

      2. londonedit*

        Neither ‘side’ is right or wrong, but there’s clearly a difference in how they want to spend their evenings, and possibly a difference in what they view as ‘relaxing’.

    11. Snow Globe*

      Well, if that means that it’s always up to the spouse to answer the doorbell and run errands in the evening because the LW refuses – that’s not exactly a fair distribution of work.

    12. Eldritch Office Worker*

      We are pretty deliberate about doing all of our outings and errands as an extension of our work days. Once I’m home, I’m HOME.

    13. A. D. Kay*

      Same here! If the bra is off, it’s not going back on! I wish I could find a video of the standup comedian who had a hilarious riff about his wife’s bra– it represents everything that was getting on her nerves that day, and once it’s off, it’s off!

    15. Delta Delta*

      Love your username and I love that it’s basically a Toast of London name, but just made into a vampire, er, regular human bartender name.

    17. Roguestella*

      1000% agree. My pajamas are usually comfy pants and a T-shirt, so I could go out again for a quick errand if needed, but I am out of work clothes and into pajamas as soon as possible after work.

      Then there’s people like my sister, who leaves her heels on at home after work (!).

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I thought it was going to be the one about whether “how to approach a printer jam” is taught in universities.

        Though with the gender component added, that changed my initial take–if the young men in the office think “I don’t know how to do a mail merge–is there a person with lady parts nearby? Even if she is my boss, she will understand the mysteries and want to take time to do them for me.” Where the correct line of thinking is “I don’t know how to do a mail merge: I should google that. And have a brain rolodex of whom in the office I should ask for what types of help, and when.”

        1. JustaTech*

          The funny thing is that I learned how to deal with printer jams as a kid (I spent a lot of time hanging around my parents’ office). Often the office manager would get frustrated and say “hey, JustaTech, you’ve got little fingers, can you get that paper?”

          And honestly I didn’t learn how to use Outlook in college because everyone used whatever mail program they wanted to and/or was free. These days I expect most college students use a website-based mail portal (assuming they use email at all).

          There does seem to be a gendered component to some office tasks – my mom was the only woman at the engineering consulting firm, and all of those very smart and educated engineers were utterly baffled by things like a mail merge and refused to learn so my mom did all of them. Which feels very secretarial, now that I think about it.

        2. My Useless Two Cents*

          I have found that those not “office tech savvy” don’t tend to go “I’ll google it” they tend to go “someone has to show me step-by-step”. And I’ve worked with a variety of people including someone who was afraid to hit backspace in Word “because it will delete the whole document”.
          I think there was a sweet spot (those in school between 1990-2007 or so) where basic office computer skills were taught in school. I remember a mandatory Office programs class that taught Word, Excel & PowerPoint in college. I feel bad for those in school after 2008 as it’s assumed they were taught the skills in the “real world” or “grew up using the programs” which is far from the realities of most.

          1. JustaTech*

            But you can retrain them! Or at least, some of them. My previous boss used to always be asking me how to do something in Word (or more likely, why was something broken in Word). After a while I started asking him if he had Googled it. Then I changed it to “what did Google say?”.
            Now, he still asked for help sometimes, because some of our templates were very unstable, but I could tell he liked that he didn’t constantly have to ask me how to change the indent level.

      2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I’m looking for the follow up debate:
        PAJAMAS
        or
        PYJAMAS
        I expect it to be “colourful”. I will “cheque” periodically.

          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            and our dark horse candidate makes his presence known. What sort of upset lies ahead for our clear favorites? The answer to this, and life, the universe and everything, when we return from these messages from our sponsor.
            “Today at “AskAManager.com” Alison Green answers your critical work questions with insight, humor and compassion. Go to AAM.com for your daily dose of debates and drama.”

        2. Hlao-roo*

          As of my 3:45pm Eastern Time search, the current usage rankings on this page are:

          Pajamas – 208
          PJs – 178
          Pyjamas – 63
          Jammies – 23
          Jarmies – 2

          1. You know it's Liz*

            In our home, it’s “jimmer jammers”, “jammers”, or “payammas” (the last being a phonetic joke from nutty cult classic Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid).

  4. AcademiaNut*

    For #4, it’s worth mentioning, as maybe next year they’ll pick a more affordable option. My experience with academia and government research institutes is that there is often no budget for things like holiday lunches (and no way to authorize one), so it’s potluck, pay your own way, or nothing, rather than having the department pick up the tab or a senior manager expense it.

    1. Antim*

      After working 10+ years in academia I thing there is a decent chance that the restaurant was choosen so that student workers will not at tent.

      2. Emmy Noether*

        In defense of academia, that has not been my experience at all. It would have been more likely to be obliviousness – any of my professors would have offered to pay out of their own pocket for student workers if they knew the situation. (My husband used to joke that my lab was the land of the care bears because everyone was so nice).

        1. Chas*

          In my experience it’s possibly a mix of obliviousness and the academics just not caring if the students attend or not. My old PI always expected everyone in our group (from undergrad students to salaried post-docs) to pay for the meal, and he’d cover the drinks. Not TOO bad since it was only once a year and we usually didn’t go to overly-expensive places.

          But one year he was having trouble finding a place that would take a group our size and settled on a place that was charging £30 per person for a 3-copurse meal. I tried to point out that expecting a pair of students who’d only been in the lab with us for 4 months at most to pay £30 each to have Christmas dinner with us was unreasonable, but he just said “oh, it’s fine, they can afford it.” and sent them the invite regardless. (Neither of them responded to him, so we didn’t end up have a Christmas meal that year because there weren’t enough of us to book.)

        2. Antim*

          I agree that it is not all of academia. I have seen professors (partially) pay for these events and others were people kind of had to be invited but attending was made as difficult for them as possible.

      4. Lexi Vipond*

        I’m genuinely surprised that inviting students to a staff night out was ever considered – but if they’re not really supposed to be going, then they just shouldn’t be invited to start with.

      5. KC*

        I would not be surprised if that was the intention!

        I ran into this problem too as a student, and it depended on who was in charge. Professor #1 was oblivious because he was rich and didn’t realize that grad students were poor. Professor #2 was incredibly cheap, and never paid for anything ever. Professor #3 was a vindictive jerk, but her approach was to invite students to an outing, and then at the end of the night, say “I didn’t have any of these things, why would I pay?” and then bounce, so students would have to split up the check and hope their bank account had enough money in it.

        (I graduated over 20 years ago, and I still despise Professor #3. I’m petty to the point that I refuse to connect with her on LinkedIn, and once when we had a student-only reunion, I made a mean “pin the tail on the donkey” game that featured her likeness. It was a very cathartic party!)

      6. Rusty Shackelford*

        Honestly, my first thought was that they don’t care if the student workers are there and did not consider them when making plans. It’s possible that it goes further and they truly want them *not* to attend, but it’s more likely that they just weren’t considered because they “don’t count.”

      7. Butterfly Counter*

        Interesting, because this is something my department is discussing right now for December. The idea is to go out to lunch and everyone pays for themselves except students and regular staff. They get a nice lunch on the faculty!

      8. #4 OP*

        I wouldn’t say it was a conscious motivation, but I find it noticable how the last parties went.

        Two years ago they wanted to cook together, because a well-liked professor used to do that before leaving the university and they thought it would raise morale. In the end, it were the TA’s and RA’s (hoping the terms are correct) that cooked the meal, while the professors either didn’t attend at all, arrived just on time with a bottle of wine, or ‘helped’ with decorating. It left a sour taste for the people picking up their slack.

        Last year we had a potluck in one of the offices, that was really nice and cozy, but no professors attended (none of them have their primary home locally and probably wanted to go home a day early).

        My assumption is that somebody said “Let’s just go to a proper restaurant, we can all afford it” and someone else thought “Hey, let’s be nice and invite the student employees as well”

    2. Fierce Jindo*

      To be honest, I think the real solution in this particular situation is to stop inviting students that are some particular professor’s RA, since they aren’t really employees of the department collectively (except, apparently, on paper). It’s obnoxious to invite them to something they obviously can’t afford, but because they are a particular professor’s RA, faculty might legitimately balk at the expense were the department to pick it up, if the department is in a tight budgetary situation.

      If, on the other hand, the department itself employs students (like mine does with front desk workers), they should be invited and their tabs covered (which might be through a fund that faculty voluntarily contribute to for stuff like this).

    3. Artemesia*

      It is outrageous for an academic party to require people to buy their own meals and include students. Of course say ‘ChezDollar’, small laugh, I can’t begin to afford that.’ Whoever is planning this needs to get a clue.

    4. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      At my previous workplace, we organised a meal out for our intern’s last day. At the last minute he said he couldn’t afford it, so we said, then we’re inviting you. Easy. We could all easily afford it, and he was being paid a third of minimum wage (the legal minimum for interns).

    5. Fun times*

      My experience is that our faculty regularly complained about how poorly they were paid and lobbied for staff layoffs so that faculty salaries could be maintained/increased.

      They did not take in to account/care that staff salaries were also way below market value AND that staff didn’t have the protection of tenure or a union.

      1. Fierce Jindo*

        I’m so interested that faculty were unionized but staff were not. I’ve never seen that combination before (I’ve often seen the reverse, including at all the universities I’ve been at).

    6. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

      In my experience of this, the prof would always pick up the tab for their students. I’m not in the US so any prof with a research program is well paid and secure, and would just be too flakey to remember to tell the students ahead of time. So definitely worth raising!

      They also have their own parties, so I doubt the theory that they’re just hoping students don’t come (again, based on my experience). I would always assume flake over malice, in my now fairly extensive experience of working with profs.

      1. #4 OP*

        There is a decent chance they would offer to pay for us on a whim, but I really don’t feel comfortable expecting that and/or gambling on it. “My” professor has gently bullied his collagues into picking up our part of the check during project outings and seems aware that students generally don’t have a lot of money, but it’s also not exactly his responsibility.
        Either way, my peers probably won’t attend and I’m not exactly eager to hang out alone with my professors while they passive-aggressively argue about fundings :o)

    7. #4 OP*

      Thank you for your comment!
      It is quite possible that my department either doesn’t have any budget left for outings like these, or isn’t able/willing to spend it on something like that. I apprechiate that they invited us students, but I’d rather not be invited and be spared the conflict, then

  6. EA*

    I have been asked by coworkers for loans of money and never considered reporting it to my employer. I think OP handled the situation well. Personally I would only report it if he asked again or pushed the point. Sometimes it’s better to just let thing slide once.

    1. Suze*

      Yes, reporting this immediately seems too much to me too. He asked, you said no. If he asks again you can ask him to stop and if he does again, report it. I would not want to work with coworkers who would’t forgive you one minor faux pas.

    2. Artemesia*

      I am of two minds. This is inappropriate enough that we can assume this person is trying to hose anyone s/he can. There will be employees especially if it is a guy and they are women who will feel they can’t say no. The manager needs to know. The fact that it was so formally done — not just a casually can you lend me a few bucks till payday conversation in the hall, makes it likely that s/he is doing this to many people.

      1. yvve*

        yea, that was my first thought. Asking a work acquaintance you barely know is not generally people’s first, or second, or third resort when they need money. It seems pretty likely he’s running out of options for people who will lend him anything

        1. Mongrel*

          Especially as, being in IT, the debtor probably has a higher level of access to the companies internal systems. While there may be a pile of innocuous reasons why the person is asking there may also be dodgier reasons that could lead to compromising the companies data security.

            1. Thegs*

              100%. I hold a security clearance and, “Asking coworkers for money” is actually an example in our annual training for insider threat recognition. It indicates someone who is in a really tough spot and is desperate as a result. They would be ripe for recruitment. (e.g. We can make your financial troubles go away if you bring us some documents)

      2. MK*

        I don’t get the gender angle; frankly, I think I would have a much harder time saying no to a woman as a woman, a request from a man would feel more inappropriate and I would push back harder.

        And I think the “right” decision about whether to report this depends on information OP doesn’t have and cannot know. This could be someone in desperate need and it’s making them override their better judgment, or it could be a thoughtless/inconsiderate/scummy person.

        1. Empress Ki*

          I am female, and my reaction would be the same whether the request comes from a female or a male.
          I am curious to know why it feels different to you,

        2. Annie2*

          I think I agree as a woman that it would be harder to say no to a woman. Not really sure why except that I’ve had decades of practice rejecting men and shutting down their weird requests, whereas I would tend to want to help another woman out? I think?

      3. Elizabeth West*

        I was going to agree with the no-report post until I read your comment. You may be right — this is curiously formal and the amount is not insubstantial.

        I think if I told the manager, I might say, “Hey Manager, Bob scheduled a video call today/yesterday to ask me for financial assistance with $X amount. I declined and he took it well, but on the off-chance he is asking other people or he needs a referral to the company EAP, I just wanted to bring it to your attention.”

    3. Maxime*

      Yes, if it’s the first time it’s happened, there’s no point in reporting the coworker. At my work, there’s only been one coworker we’ve reported for this (I’m in France, in a sheltered workshop as a disabled worker, so on certain points it’s seems more like a vocational high school, I specify, because some things can be different than in an mainstream environment). He would ask us to pay for his coffee/chocolate/sandwich, promise to pay us back for our purchases, but never pay back. He also knew how to spot coworkers who didn’t know how to say no. the fact that he tried it with a supervisor must also have had something to do with the fact that he was lectured.

    4. ferrina*

      I don’t know if I’d report it, but I’d mention it to someone who has a better angle on the office than I do. This might be a one-off non-issue, or it might be part of a broader pattern of behavior that becomes problematic, so I’d want to mention it to someone that would have more context and would know which of the two it was. Not as anything official, but just so someone had all the pieces if it became necessary.

    5. Roy G. Biv*

      My first thought was “grifters gonna grift.” I would be shocked if the coworker has not asked everyone else in his inner circles for money, (and probably only paid them back after repeated requests,) and is now working on the next circle of acquaintance, aka coworkers who know my name and face, but who do not work with me closely.

    6. Observer*

      I have been asked by coworkers for loans of money and never considered reporting it to my employer. I think OP handled the situation well

      I think that context matters. For one thing, this is actually a lot of money. If you are in the US, even in the states were the minimum wage is the Federal rate ($7.25 per hour) and a 35 hour work week, you are still looking at an amount that actually is somewhat significant – $280 is not insignificant, even though it won’t break the bank for most people making high salaries.

      For another this was not a situation where the two of them have much of a relationship and situation came up where the ask would organically come up. Like, if my coworker asks me to cover lunch today when we are discussing ordering, because they forgot their wallet, that’s one thing. But someone setting up a call specifically to ask me for a few hundred dollars? When I barely know them?

      Something is *very* wrong with that scenario.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Exactly. Spotting someone $10 for lunch isn’t an issue. A loan for a significant portion of a paycheck is a different story.

        Depending on industry rules and compliance guideline, this may be required to be reported. Changes in finances and other personal circumstances are supposed to be brought to a supervisor’s attention. Management will ascertain whether the employee has an issue

    7. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think what’s weird is that they are not close coworkers, don’t work together often, and he set up a meeting specifically to ask the OP. It wasn’t a casual thing that came up at the end of a business meeting.

    8. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

      I think it’s entirely possible that this loan was an AI-generated video call scam.

      3. Leapfrogger*

        Hi! I’m the LW. I don’t believe it was an AI scam. Everything from checking if I was available, then using the internal company chat/video tools, to the small talk we had before and after 100% genuine to me, including details of past conversations and the project that we sometimes work together.

    9. Pizza Rat*

      I wouldn’t report it either unless it became a pattern with persistent asking. I also wouldn’t loan if I couldn’t afford not to have the loan paid back.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        On the other hand it *could* be a pattern with persistent asking and OP might not know. Just because OP didn’t get asked more than once doesn’t mean there isn’t problematic behavior. My big concern is whether this pitch is going out to more junior people who might feel like they can’t say no.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        No, AI isn’t good enough yet to successfully pass for human in a real-time video call. Particularly since the LW seemed to know the coworker, it would be stupidly time-consuming to train an AI to mimic a real person (and getting sufficient video training data on a non-celebrity would be an enormous investment).

        For the moment, it’s far cheaper (and more likely to succeed) to hire real people to do video-call scams.

        1. Happy Camper*

          Oh yes it is. I work in finance and have seen some of the deepfakes that have gone around and they can be very convincing.

  7. Pink Sprite*

    Re: #3— When I was a middle school teacher, I came home and about 95% of the time I immediately changed into my pajamas.
    We started school at 7:20 (horrible for middle school kids {and me}) and finished at 2:15. I usually was out of there as soon as possible because I was exhausted (chronic insomnia yo).
    Got home, let my dog out, we both had a little snack, and then collapsed on the couch for a nap.
    I suspect more teachers than anyone thinks do change into their pajamas very soon as they get home. It’s a physically, emotionally, and mentally demanding and exhausting job.

    1. jtr*

      Right?! LW is surrounded by 20 – 30 pre-teen kids All. Day. Long. from 7 am until 4 pm. Maybe they DON’T feel like doing anything else that night that would require non-pj-wearing.

    2. Artemesia*

      It bothers her husband. Why would she want to do something that bothers her husband when the alternative is so very easy?

      1. Emily*

        Sometimes people are bothered by things that are unreasonable. I think LW should talk to her husband to get more information on why he feels this way, but I don’t like automatically jumping to “It bothers her husband so she shouldn’t do it.”

      2. Emmy Noether*

        Mh. I don’t personally do the pajama thing, but I disagree that it would be easy for her. Relax-rituals can be very important to a person. Why is it more important for her to be visually pleasing to him than for her to feel good?

      3. Storm in a teacup*

        I get we all need to compromise for our spouses but let’s flip this. Why is her spouse bothered by something and control something so minor?
        Why would he want her to change when the alternative is so easy?

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          To me the flip is if the husband got home and stripped down to his boxers every day, and then couldn’t answer the door. I could see that choice of attire signaling a whole level of disengagement that the person you’re living with finds tiring and lonely.

          That is, once OP gave examples of what she wouldn’t do in this clothing, I could see why someone you live with would find the pajamas off-putting. Whereas when it was just “I change into comfy stretchy clothing in which I could sit on the couch or do yoga or walk the dog or grocery shop or take a nap” that seemed normal for most of us when we shift from Out to Home.

          1. MC*

            See, I didn’t read that as a list of things the OP refuses to do in pajamas. I read it as an assumption from the husband – those are things *he* wouldn’t do in pajamas, so he assumes she wouldn’t.

          2. Jasmine*

            Just because someone is in their underwear or pjs doesn’t mean they can’t answer the door. Just throw a robe on!

          3. biobotb*

            She did not give examples of what *she* wouldn’t do in clothing. She gave examples of what her husband wouldn’t do. If her pjs really were a sign that she was refusing to answer the door, run errands or do anything else for the night, her husband would be interpreting them correctly and there would be nothing to write in about.

          4. beepboopbop*

            I mean, my partner strips to their boxers as soon as they get home and is still the one to answer the door whenever we order food or get deliveries. They just throw on sweats. Turns out it’s very easy to put pants back on.

      4. Cinn*

        It bothers her, why would her husband want her to do something that bothers her?

        Sorry, but theres something about this argument that gives me the ick, and I’m of the opinion they could find a relatively easy compromise if they talked about it honestly.

        1. Agent Diane*

          It’s because it suggests that a wife should make herself uncomfortable when she is home alone simply so her husband doesn’t get put out. It suggests her preferences are less important than his. I’ve seen a couple of other comments along these lines and it genuinely startles me because it is so 1950s.

          Hail the patriarchy!

          1. Emmy Noether*

            In this case it’s even more specifically that she should be uncomfortable solely to be more visually pleasing to a man. Which yes, is very 1950’s.

              1. AGD*

                No one did, but there’s a strong undercurrent here of ‘ugh, just fix it by dressing more nicely’ that puts the onus on her for no reason, and that is a vestige of earlier times when the wife was there to be pretty for her man even if it decentered her comfort, her needs, and/or her agency.

          2. WellRed*

            There’s a huge range between work clothes and pajamas. These two need to chat about what’s really the issue.

          3. ferrina*

            Yeah, I’m in the camp that “you can wear what you want in your own home.” Home is about feeling safe and comfortable- pajamas help LW feel comfortable and unwind. Why would you want to begrudge your partner the feeling of comfort and unwinding after a long day at a tough job? Especially if it’s something as minor as wearing pajamas.

            I’m really uncomfortable with the 1950s callback of “you should always seek to be visually pleasing to your husband, no matter what your day has been”. If that’s something that’s cool with you, cool, live your life. If you like other clothes in your home, great, wear the clothes you like. If you are someone that doesn’t care which clothes you wear and is happy to take suggestions, do what makes you happy. But LW like pajamas. Why shouldn’t they get to wear clothes they like? (especially when they are just hanging out at home by themself)

      6. SweetCheezits*

        Why is her husband bothered by her doing something that makes her happy? Why does she have to prioritise a man’s comfort over her own? Why is he getting to set the rules? This isn’t the fifties!

      7. Generation WHAAAAAAAT*

        Are you, like, cosplaying a tradwife here, or are you just really old? Inquiring minds are baffled and want to know.

        1. Myrin*

          I mean, Artemesia, who has been a regular commenter for ages, is around 80 or even older by now, so would probably fit your definition of “really old”.

          However, I am incredibly surprised to see this take by her, because I’ve read her comments for literally a decade where it’s become clear that she’s been championing feminism, women’s rights, and better treatment at the workplace since the 60s and has led a life in accordance with that – if you had shown me her comments in this thread and asked me to name which regular commenter they’re from, I never would’ve guessed it.

          So IDK, maybe this is just some strange pet peeve or something?

          1. Ferret*

            It’s also ironic considering their username… Artemisia of Halicarnassus was hardly the model of traditional femininity…

          2. Emmy Noether*

            I share your surprise.

            My bet is it’s a blind spot where Artemisia doesn’t get the effect the pajamas can have on the LW and therefore vastly underestimates the sacrifice required. If the choice was between two equivalent things to wear, it would be more reasonable to choose the one the partner prefers.

            1. Myrin*

              I didn’t wildly speculate, I gave some background on a person I’ve gotten to know (well, “online-know”) and appreciate during the last ten years because I’d hate to see her painted with a very non-befitting brush. I’m not sure how you got from my one comment which basically consists of one paragraph of background information a newer reader might not have to “this is wild speculation”.

              And I didn’t ask her because
              1. a lot of people did already so why should I add to that
              and
              2. I honestly don’t care that much. I read the four or five comments she made in this thread, thought “Hm, very strange for her to say something like that. Must be a hangup related to something.” and kept scrolling. I only stopped to type the one reply you see here because of the reason I gave in the beginning of this comment.

        2. Blue*

          Idk seems like a bad faith assumption. The scale between “in PJs” and “ready to go out” is massive, and the letter states that the husband is bummed because he wants them to be able to go out later. I’m team PJs, but I can recognize that in this married couple one of them is interpreting wearing PJs as “in for the day”, logically and being bummed out. In the context of the letter (going out of the house), Artemis comment is about choosing an extreme rather than finding a compromise.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            I agree on choosing an extreme rather than finding a compromise.

            And while he started with the pjs, plenty of folk quickly figured out that The PJs Are A Metaphor and the two should talk about the things underlying the metaphor, whether they are interpreting the metaphor the same way, and what each views as their ideal week in the context of doing stuff you can’t do when wearing just your underwear.

          2. inksmith*

            But it’s not like she can’t change out of PJs if they decide to go out – I mean, that’s literally what we do every morning when we go to work. Why should she have to dress as though they *might* go out later?

      9. iglwif*

        Maybe the alternative isn’t “so very easy”? Maybe the husband is kind of overreacting?

        Maybe they should have a conversation about why this bothers him as the first step?

    3. JustMe*

      Pink Sprite, your after school routine sounds very much like mine (retired elementary teacher here).
      Especially during the last few years of my career, I’d often change into pajamas before cooking dinner.
      Teaching is demanding and draining in so many ways.
      Pajamas provide a little comfort after a day of chaos.

    4. Thinking*

      And thank you for doing it. I never considered home schooling because neither my child nor I would have survived. I am just not built to teach.
      My children knew I consider teachers sacrosanct.

  8. Lurker*

    But if you change into your pajamas — are you eating dinner in them? Cleaning? Do you then change into different pajamas before you get in to bed? I think it’s weird to sleep in clothes that you do stuff in in your bed – which is kind of what you’re doing when you change into PJs so early. Or maybe you don’t wear pajamas to bed? In which case, you’re just changing into lounge wear?

    1. Zanshin*

      Before retiring I would get into pjs after work if there were no evening plans, then undress for bed.

    2. Noodles*

      I sleep in the same pjs I cook dinner in. I don’t get sweaty or smelly doing basic evening chores, so why not

        2. ferrina*

          Me too. I’m ADHD, so accidents by distraction are a common occurrence. I have different pajamas for sleeping and day wear (the day wear pajamas live on the floordrobe).

        4. Gumby*

          See, for me if it is white I am absolutely, 100%, going to spill something. Other colors? I have a much better chance. So as long as my pjs do not have a white top, I’m probably ok.

          Though also, the pjs I change into are not the ones I sleep in for the most part. I cannot sleep in pj pants but all of my lounging pjs are shirt and pants sets. But if I work from the office, I am getting home around 8 pm anyway. If I have errands to run I’ll do it before I go home because once I’m in, I’m in. I might delay changing f I need to run stuff down to recycling or take the trash out. But those would be the first things I’d do when I got home and then it’s pajama city for me.

    3. But what to call me?*

      Why wouldn’t I stay in the same pajamas to make dinner? It’s not like I’m spilling food on myself in a regular basis. I don’t work out in them or do any major cleaning, but basic daily stuff around the house is no messier than climbing in bed with them. It’s much cleaner than what I would bring into the house by wearing work clothes inside.

      1. Nodramalama*

        I mean a lot of people DO spill when they’re preparing or eating food. That’s why aprons and napkins exist. And its not like the only options are ‘wear clothes you’ve been working in thst are dirty’ or ‘wear the clothes you’ll sleep in’

        1. biobotb*

          And a lot of people don’t spill. The LW doesn’t say that if she spills food on her pjs, she’ll still wear them to bed. Why is that your assumption?

      2. MK*

        Eh, depends on what making dinner means; same goes for cleaning. Of you are dusting in your pj, a lot of the dust ends up on them.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          That’s not a problem for me; dusting and cleaning happen on the weekends when I’m wearing daytime clothes. I’m too tired to do it after work.

          If I’m making something messy with sauce for dinner, I slap on an apron. I could also wear it if I were dusting or cleaning up a mess.

      3. Emmy Noether*

        I think it would be the smell for me. I want my sleepwear to smell of bed and fresh linens, not of garlic or cheese or curry or fish or whatever else delicious but not conducive to sleep.

        I guess it depends a lot on what making dinner entails.

        1. Meg*

          Yes I would be kind of grossed out if my husband wore his pajamas while cooking, taking out the trash, etc and then got in our bed with them.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          My apartment is so small I can’t not smell my dinner. The “hallway” that goes to my bedroom is less than three feet square, lol. A squirt of Febreze and I’m good, though.

      5. iglwif*

        That’s the difference between you and me, then, because I don’t think I’ve ever cooked and eaten a meal without spilling something on myself at some point in the proceedings. I usually wear an apron, but even so!

    4. Ellis Bell*

      That’s assuming everyone who wears pajamas, sleeps in pajamas! I think they are the most uncomfortable things in the world to sleep in. I adore them as lounge wear, but once I’m actually in bed I need support up top and something short which doesn’t wrap around my legs.

    5. Havelock*

      Or maybe, just maybe, something that YOU find weird doesn’t actually bother OP? Because they’re not you.

      I think it’s super weird to be so bothered about what someone else chooses to wear.

      1. Blue*

        If it’s going to upset you to see different people’s opinions on wearing pajamas around the house, then don’t read a comments section about wearing pajamas around the house. Lurker is just making small chat about a convention different to them, not filleting the OP for doing something different.

        2. JB (not in Houston)*

          Except Lurker’s comments don’t really help the OP at all. If we want to “make small chat” about something that doesnt’ address the OP’s concerns, we’re supposed to save that for the weekend posts. All Lurker’s comment does is suggest that the OP’s choice is weird for reasons unrelated to why it bothers her partner, and it doesn’t offer up any solutions.

          1. Lurker*

            Have you read the comments on this blog with any regularity? They frequently include people just sharing their opinions and not addressing OPs with any sort of suggestions or help.

            1. JB (not in Houston)*

              Uh, yes, I’ve read the comments here daily for a very long time. And Alison has on more than one occasion asked people not to get off topic

    6. SometimesCharlotte*

      I have two sets of pajamas: those I wear in bed and those I wear in the house, doing whatever. I do not sleep in my house pajamas and I don’t putter around the house in my sleeping pajamas

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Yes I eat dinner in pajamas. No I don’t clean in them – unless clearing the table to put stuff in the dishwasher counts as cleaning. But I don’t usually clean the house after work. Although…I do actually clean in pajamas, but that’s after waking up in them, not in the evening between putting them on and going to bed.
      I think possibly your internal image of “doing stuff in” is different than mine (and possibly OP’s). My after work activities generally consist of: eat dinner, put dishes in dishwasher, watch television, read AAM, webcomics and the like, brush teeth, sleep.

  9. seriousmoonlight*

    Yeah, unless I have set plans for the evening, I am straight into pajamas when I get home. I’m not going to wear my nice work clothes while cooking dinner and watching TV and it seems silly to change into casual clothes for a few hours if I’m just going to be around the house anyway.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Exactly! I have sleep jammies and lounge jammies. My mom works from home and she is in “jammies’ all day long. She says she has her work jammies and then her sleep jammies. She changes her clothes usually after dinner.
      I think it all depends on what you mean by jammies. For some its night gowns and slippers. For others its light sweat pants/yoga pants and a large T-shirt.

    4. Save Bandit*

      This is exactly how I am. I have three kids in various activities. If I have nowhere else to be, or if I only have to drop off/pick up kids from things, I am IMMEDIATELY in sweats when I get home. Why the heck do I want to wear jeans at home after having worn work clothes all day?

  10. the Viking Diva*

    OP2, please bring it up with the script Allison suggests. Someone was doing this in a community group I’m part, and many kind people responded with a loan. They kept it private, as the person’s cover story that invoked privacy, so it took a while for the group leader to discover what turned out to be a fairly large-scale scam that the person had run in other groups too. It caused a lot of disruption and most did not get their money back. The person was caught and has spent several years in jail as a result, but there was a lot of angst in the group as the case wended its way through the justice system.

    1. WS*

      Yeah, a sale rep, who invited by my workplaces and similar workplaces, and had a longstanding relationship with all of them in my area of the state, did a similar thing. He borrowed a few hundred to a thousand dollars from at least 30 separate people (almost all men) and it didn’t raise an alarm because each person was in a separate department, everyone knew this guy would visit every month, obviously not a big deal. Unfortunately, he had a rapidly escalating gambling problem and was very quickly caught when he tried to steal from his large, multinational company. The company reimbursed everyone involved, which was not legally required, but certainly rehabilitated their reputation quickly.

    2. TiredITMinion*

      I will add that with AI and “deep fakes” it is possible for these scams to be conducted by others as well pretending to be your co-worker. It is the next evolution of the “help I lost my wallet overseas” or “I am in jail and need bail” etc. and more challenging because we believe our eyes and ears and those are easy to fool with technology.

      One last tip – anytime ANYONE asks you for something, especially financial, and you are not in-person with that individual: Hang up and call them back at a number/social media handle/whatever you have previously used to communicate…preferably that is different from the one just used…in order to confirm the request and it is really them. There are so many social engineering scams going on these days and this is sadly a necessary step.

    3. Anonforthis*

      With all the deep fake scams out there I would say to report it to both the company and the person who supposedly called you. It is equally possible that it was not even them calling. Anytime anyone calls/videos asking for something financial, best practice nowadays is to hang up and call them back, preferably through a different medium if possible but at least using a number you previously have known them to use not just hitting redial. The technology out there makes these scams so easy.

      1. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

        Yes, I would report it too because it is odd that this person is doing it. Scams are becoming more and more sophisticated these days with using voice recordings and other manuevers.

    4. Patches023*

      My first thought was a scam. That the person asking had their account taken over by a scammer. Report it.

  11. Zanshin*

    LW1: when I as an RN would start a new job, other professional staff would orient me to the specific nursing functions. But my orientations always included time with IT re the computer systems and time with the unit secretary/ward clerk on paperwork flow and other non clinical stuff. It was a good model.

    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      It sounds to me like a new attorney gets that as part of their orientation. My sense if that LW1 is asking about teaching basic knowledge of computer use such as using Excel, turning on the camera, etc.

      I was working in a different field, not a desk job, when Excel was created and therefore missed learning it entirely when it was now an integral function of most office jobs. I found a one-day class that focused on using Excel for work. The instructor was excellent and I never needed another training.

      LW1, it’s not your responsibility to teach someone to use Excel. Send the new attorney to a basic office skills class.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. And particularly don’t let him use women professionals in the office as his admins. Make clear what is expected when the person is hired. Don’t hire a new attorney who doesn’t have these skills or is not willing to take a class to learn them.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yeah, I can’t imagine asking my boss these kind of questions unless I’ve exhausted every other option first. But then, I’ve never been a man with a female boss, so… ;-)

        2. Annie E. Mouse*

          This. At the first law firm I worked in, I was shocked by how many of the youngish attorneys somehow never could figure out how to schedule a meeting or attach a file to an email. These were skills that my Xennial self learned in high school and needed in both college and law school.

          It took me a while to see the patterns. The male attorneys relied so much more on paralegals and admins because they wanted to, not because they needed to. As the partner, I think LW needs to be keeping an eye on whether these new people are also overtaxing the support staff when they don’t know how to do these things.

        3. Zombeyonce*

          I’m very curious as to if the partner is a man. If so, because these all appear to be men coming to the female partner for help, I want LW to send them to the male partner to deal with it. I get the feeling that a large majority of these young men wouldn’t go to another man for this but figure it out on their own instead. If the partner is male, he can have a go-to course they can take if he actually gets any queries. It could be enlightening how changing a dynamic like that can shine a light on the real problem.

      2. Violet Fox*

        Speaking as IT, having somewhere to send people for basic skills classes sounds like an amazing idea. You cannot assume that people get any sort of IT training at a university outside of university specific things, and this will vary a lot from place to place.

        The whole thing of “people grew up with tech so they should understand it” has honestly made generations of pretty much tech illiterate people who know how to use an app, but don’t know basics like what a file system is and how to use it.

        Teach people yes, but sending them out for basic skills classes is how to do it, not have admin etc train them. Also refresher coursers for older employees to deal with changes in tech and work flows.

        1. DannyG*

          I taught for over a decade in a doctoral program. The school was VERY MAC centric. The hospitals I worked with were all PC. It’s very easy to graduate without some of those skills. Perhaps a reasonable alternative would be to have a suite of tutorials available to cover the basics as part of the orientation process.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            The Mac => PC pain is real! The first day of my computer programming class, I had to ask the person next to me how to start my computer. (I’d never had a separate monitor before, so I was sitting there turning my monitor on and off, not realizing the computer was under the desk.)

            The right-click button on the mouse is pretty cool, though.

            1. Maleficent2026*

              What’s worse is when your work laptop is a PC, but your personal one is a MacBook. And you’re in grad school part time, so you’re constantly swapping back and forth between operating systems. Sometimes multiple time a day. I confuse they keyboard shortcuts way too often and it’s SO annoying!

              1. iglwif*

                Me tooooooo. I was a Windows user for decades, then I got a job that used Macs and got used to that and got a Macbook for personal use, and then I got laid off and my new job sent me a Windows laptop … but because my personal laptop is a Macbook, I am switching back and forth a lot and my left-hand finger muscles are constantly confused :(

            2. SarahKay*

              Your comment about the right-click button made me laugh, as my step-dad and I are both firmly Windows people and frequently wonder why – no, seriously, WHY?!? – Apple made the decision to do away with right-click.

            3. perspex*

              I’m a little confused because I use right-click on a Mac all day every day. I am using a Mac mouse right now, but I’ve also spent years using a Logitech mouse with a Mac. All the right-click functionality is there with both mouse and trackpad.

          2. iglwif*

            For real! And I’ve worked with younger people who learned all kinds of fancy statistical software during grad school — SPSS, R, and so on — but didn’t learn how to use functions of MS Office apps that we use at work all the time. University programs are not, in fact, vocational training for office work.

            (Also, I have never worked in an office where more than 2 or at most 3 people could actually reliably clear a printer jam. I’m good at it — there are instructions on the inside of the machine, and I find that if you follow them, things usually work out eventually — but a lot of people seem to regard the process as akin to black magic.)

            That said, if the situation is “a bunch of young hotshots are asking OP to do things for them instead of using google to figure stuff out like the rest of us do” … that’s an issue.

            1. Timothy (TRiG)*

              I’m a software developer, and I haven’t touched MS Office (or any non-GNU/Linux operating system) in over a decade. I’m certainly not going to be doing any Excel-foo (I’d probably prefer to throw the data into a MySQL database and write my own front-end for it in PHP and javascript), but I do know how to search for basic operations.

              1. iglwif*

                Yeah. From my perspective, the issue here isn’t “the newbies don’t know Excel,” it’s “the newbies won’t google how to do things in Excel.”

        2. Sloanicota*

          I agree there should be an easy class to teach this, it shouldn’t necessarily be OP, but there’s probably no expectation someone learned it in school. I think I learned excel/outlook stuff in my internships, but that’s just because I happened to have office-y type roles there. And nobody ever walked me through it, but it wouldn’t have hurt to give me a resource. I certainly still encounter people who can’t figure out how to convert something to a PDF or that you can’t forward an attachment two threads back or whatever.

        3. Snow Globe*

          My husband transitioned from an outside job that he worked for a couple of decades to an office job. He got trained in MS Word & Excel by taking classes at our local library.

        4. Falling Diphthong*

          Strongly agree that the use of office systems is not taught. Apparently there is now a whole thing where people who grew up using interfaces that connect to a computer are assumed to be proficient, when they actually just know how to do certain tasks. Which is how most of us learn such things, task specific as it comes up, and we don’t know what we don’t know until we trip into a new area of ignorance.

          If it’s a recurring thing in their office, it might be worth OP finding a local IT person able to come in and give one day Office tutorials, or other tutorials. While also addressing any underlying “But can’t I just ask the office mom? *winsome smile, puppy dog eyes*” stuff.

          1. Hey, I'm Wohrking Heah!*

            Yup, and there are so many different platforms and programs now. Plausible that someone used Google sheets in a class or 2 but has never touched Excel. MS programs were dominant for most of my career but they’ve managed to even make email complicated now.

          2. Allonge*

            I agree it’s not taught, and should be.

            There is also a tendency (not new, I had students like this two decades ago) where some people meet a low-key tech problem (how do I make photocopies) and instead of clicking on some things and trying, they immediately go and find someone to ask. There is a shiny big button, and a fairly self-explanatory interface; it’s also vanishingly unlikely that a photocopier will explode from pusing buttons in the wrong order. Yet, I had to point hte shiny big button out to countless people.

            All that is to say: LW, commiserations. Send them to an Office course (hell, a YouTube playlist works). But some people Will Always Ask instead of looking things up.

        5. ferrina*

          We have an optional part of our company orientation that includes how the email system works. Some people need it, and some people don’t. It’s easier to catch it at the beginning of someone’s time with us and not have it impact productivity. Ditto with other tech admin. But if you are later asking the same question about “how do I use Excel?”, the first response will be “what does your training materials say?”

      3. Lady Danbury*

        I definitely don’t think it’s a manager’s responsibility to teach these skills (especially not a manager who’s time is billed at hundreds an hour), but I do think it’s their responsibility to ensure that new attorneys have those skills. There are a plethora of online and external training resources to teach these sort of skills. Just like any other skills gap, LW should work with their employees to identify gaps and ways to close those gaps. It might be helpful for the firm to create a resource library of internal external links/resources for specific issues or programs. If the same gaps keep popping up, they should also consider adding training to their new hire curriculum. At many employers, all new employees are required to have an IT orientation where they are taught key IT skills for the company/their department.

        1. Another Kristin*

          This is a good idea! Generally you should expect to train on custom tools and procedures and provide links/time to access vendor-provided training for out-of-the-box systems. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel and teach people how to use Zoom, Zoom is very eager to share this information. You just need a one-pager with links to each vendor’s training page.

      4. JMC*

        Years ago when I was doing dial up internet tech support, I found the two dumbest people when it came to basic technology were doctors and lawyers. It’s like the higher learning there is the less basic common sense there is. I’m sure it’s still true today.

        1. LawLady*

          I’m a lawyer married to a doctor with many lawyer and doctor friends. One thing that tends to be true is that doctors and lawyers don’t get to have normal entry level jobs. So called “K-JDs” for example go straight through kindergarten to law school, and then all of a sudden are advanced professionals without ever having a true entry level job.

          I was grateful I worked before law school for this reason. I got to be a sort of dopey 22 year old learning office norms and outlook etiquette. I knew multiple coworkers who really struggled because they had never had a full time job and were all of a sudden lawyers billing at $600/hr and without really knowing office basics.

          1. Justin D*

            Yeah and in school you’re not using Outlook for email and Excel isn’t for liberal arts or law degrees. You might use Word and PPT but that’s it.

        2. 2 Cents*

          As someone who used to work with physicians and try to get them to do digital things, I can attest to this. I’d send them an online form with bold, highlighted instructions to “press this button,” and get messages from half of them asking which button. (There was only one!) Many were embarrassed they didn’t know how to do a digital thing, but I’d joke that I could do the digital stuff if they did the medical stuff, since they didn’t want me anywhere near patients LOL

          1. CeramicSun*

            I asked one doctor for a recommendation letter and I ended up having to resubmit it myself because the doctor just typed his name at the end without actually signing it (which I only found out because my application was delayed due to this). It ended up being easier for me to tell him to print out the letter, physically sign the paper with a pen, and give it to me. Then I scanned it in and emailed it to the appropriate people. I was very grateful that there wasn’t any problems with me seeing the letter or idk what i would’ve done.

        3. Strive to Excel*

          My uncle is a senior manager in charge of IT product development and implementation. He is responsible for overseeing huge database systems, juggle timelines, spot potential system errors, and generally do a large amount of serious software work.

          He cannot remember function keys to save his life and copy and pastes manually.

          Never assume what someone knows about computers.

        4. MigraineMonth*

          I did some EHR installs, and while I disagree that doctors are the worst when it comes to technology (there was a wide level of technical ability), their patience when learning left everything to be desired. It wasn’t the nurses yelling at us, throwing clipboards, drawing on the screens with permanent markers, or smashing monitors. During the EHR install, we added an additional “code” to the traditional emergency codes: Code Blue was patient needs emergency attention; Code Red was fire; and Code White was doctor throwing such a tantrum over the EHR they were going to let them do the processes on paper while their permission to work at the hospital was revoked.

        5. Annie2*

          As a lawyer, I absolutely co-sign this. We’re so dumb. Also, I don’t think I needed any special support for it, but I definitely learned Excel and Outlook at my first lawyer job. I didn’t use either of those programs in the course of my schooling, and I’d never had an office job before.

        6. Maleficent2026*

          I previously worked a job that required a secure digital signature from about 90% of customers. The longest time I ever spent on the phone trying to talk people through the process was with a married couple who were ROCKET SCIENTISTS. Actual, legitimate rocket scientists who worked for NASA. Almost a full hour on the phone with them just for two signatures.

      5. BurnOutCandidate*

        “It’s not your responsibility to teach someone to use Excel.”

        *sigh*

        I used to be saddled with the department’s Excel projects because in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Or, in my case, the Excel project guy. Because I came onboard with Excel knowledge (and the other person who had Excel knowledge during my time there died of an aggressive cancer), Excel stuff would come to me. Never mind that I had other job duties. I had an idea of how to start with Excel, so I was the Excel guy. The number of times I had to explain to my boss how to cut and paste columns in Excel numbered on more than two hands. Or to my boss’ boss how to write a formula that would add minutes to a time (because he was trying to make a speaking schedule for a conference).

        I said to my grandboss at one point that it would behoove the company to invest in Microsoft Office training materials, because so much of our business required Office applications. There were people who didn’t know the basic copy-cut-paste keyboard shortcuts! But there why spend money on that when people come onboard with or pick up just enough knowledge to be able to do their jobs? It would be, I was told, an investment without a return. Why be better, when being middling is good enough.

        Sorry, I’m still grumpy about that, getting other people’s Excel work because I could make a pivot table or a chart, because I wasn’t a hopeless case.

        1. My Useless Two Cents*

          I so feel you!
          Our branch of the office often feel like the office file cabinet. Because we save things in logical places (like the shared job folder). So we are constantly being asked where is and can we send X document.

          We once hired an older gentleman who had worked his entire life in manual labor type jobs but his knees were giving out and wanted an office job. I probably explained to him how to use Save-As (Excel) step-by-step 12 times a day, 5 days a week, for 3 months straight. I even typed out the steps, with pictures!, in Word and printed it out for him to reference. Tried stepping back and making him figure it out himself but then I got “I can’t find X file” instead and would have to go through file after file saved as Book 1, Book 1(2), Book 1(3) all at his desk because it was saved to his computer, not the network… sigh

      6. Kendall^2*

        Or suggest an online class; there is a lot of training available on just these sorts of things free online, often available through LinkedIn or the local public library system, if other things are feasible.

      7. Smithy*

        First – I entirely agree with this advice overall, however I do think it would be helpful for the OP to vet some classes.

        In my current job, when I started they were very Google centric for email, docs, etc. I’d never used Google for work like that, and when I asked if they had recommendations on trainings I was just told to use Google for help. Personally, I’m not someone who learns computer applications all that well via video alone and do benefit from a bit more hands-on instruction. So just having a recommendation for videos that are recommended for those who enjoy that, as well as vetted classes/training etc. would be helpful.

        I don’t think the OP should be doing this training at all, but I think there are other ways to be helpful for onboarding that do not include providing full coaching.

      8. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I did get some learning in undergrad about the office suite, but it was mostly pretty basic. And the whole thing has changed quite a bit since then.

        When I got my first office job, I wanted to update my Word and Excel skills. So I did several online courses through what was then Lynda[dot]com. Last I checked, it’s now LinkedIn Learning. This was free through my local public library. (Yay libraries!!!) The courses were pretty quick and very informative.

        The funny thing is that that first office job was in a place with a lot of lawyers and legal assistants and it was a running joke that many of the older attorneys were extremely reliant on their legal assistants to make sure that their documents were all formatted correctly and in the right file type.

    2. WellRed*

      I took an excel class in college. 25 years later, I still don’t have reason to use it more than very tangentially for one thing do I really can’t use the program as I’ve forgotten the class.

    3. Snow Globe*

      If the ability to use Excel/Word is a critical function of the job, it would be a good idea to ask some questions about that in the interview phase, and if an otherwise great candidate doesn’t have the skills, to suggest they practice/find training right away.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Or onboarding could include “you’ll need to know things like X, Y, and Z, and here are some suggested online resources for learning those if needed.”

    4. Silver Robin*

      I work with lawyers and I literally helped run a basic Teams/Zoom training for the org within the past year. How to share screen, where your audio/video settings are, that kind of thing.

      Did all of these adults also experience a pandemic where they had to use these for school/work and figure it out along with everyone else? Yes. Does that mean they actually learned anything? Unevenly. So, another colleague and I put together a quick training.

      If this turns out to be a gender thing (young men treating the woman as admin), then just have a standby training run by IT or an online class, to refer them to, or Google. If this is more widespread than that, offering that training during orientation and more widely to staff might be helpful.

      funny note: hiding rows/columns in Excel and filtering tables has never been something other people understand. It seems super basic, but the number of times I have been told something “disappeared” because I was filtering on a shared doc…

      2. My Useless Two Cents*

        I’ve worked in an office since before the pandemic. I have never needed to use Teams/Zoom, not once. It is not necessary for my job, nor the others in my office. It is not universal mandatory office knowledge yet. And hopefully never will be (I absolutely loathe the phone and video calls are 100X worse).

      3. Allonge*

        I confused people (people in budget / finance) by using the split screen in Excel. The table is there twice! Yep.

        Still: generally there are two kinds of people for this: those who are willing to click on thigs and find out what they do and those who (to me) seem to expect that this will lead to some kind of major catastrophe, possibly with explosions / blood. Spoilers: as long as we are talking about Office products, this latter is unlikely.

    5. higheredrefugee*

      I worked in law school career services for a very long time (15 years) and I would not assume young attorneys know how to do any of those things. They rarely printed stuff in their schooling so they can maybe unjam a printer but not a copier. They likely used Google, not Outlook, and don’t know anything about etiquette on sending meeting invites or using the admin functions of zoom or Teams. Yes, paying attention to the gender gap is important here, but also, if you ever develop a long-term admin who is good with tech, they may be a good resource for teaching and being tech support. My use of Outlook calendar has evolved over time and 10-15 minutes talking about how to use flags and folders in emails and meetings v appointments can be helpful. Maybe you talk about it when you discuss how Outlook does (or does not) integrate into your LMS. I’m pretty intuitive on using tools, not everyone is, so it is finding a balance on figure it out yourself but also providing context on how using something like Outlook integrates into a better organized day will pay dividends.

      1. higheredrefugee*

        Also, we did try to teach them some of these things but they generally didn’t pay attention or thought they could figure it out on their own. in fairness, offices have endless nuances that have only increased over time, it is difficult to teach generalities around some uses of tech.

      2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Well said. OP seems to be assuming that just because someone has a lot of schooling they must know these things. They offer traning for admins because of that alleged lesser schooling.
        1. OP check your attitude regarding educated v. allegedly non-educated.
        2. Education does not equal proficiency with office technology. They haven’t been in an office, they’ve been in school.
        3. Give training to everyone. If problems still persist, especially along gender lines, address that issue.

        1. Kevin Sours*

          I really wonder what class OP thinks covers unjamming a printer. Because I don’t remember that one at all.

          1. Allonge*

            And yet I managed to unjam several printers over a quarter century without taking a class in it. Newer ones show you step by step what you need to do. I very much doubt OP took a class in this either.

            Part of the issue is not that people don’t get trained (who gets training on printer/copier use and basic maintenance anyway?), it’s that they are not told to / willing to find out how to solve these issues.

            1. Kevin Sours*

              Yeah but what OP says is they should know because “they have a vast amount of schooling”.

              And lots of people get training in basic maintenance . Not formally mind you but:
              “Hey the printers jammed what do I do?”
              “Yeah, here’s how you fix it”

              Everything is easy when you know how to do it. A lot of this stuff are things you generally pick up but there really is not systematic place this gets taught and so some people don’t have the opportunity. Sometimes people don’t solve it themselves because they’re terrified of screwing it up. Is OP going to have any more grace if somebody manages to break the printer trying to clear the jam?

              Having resources available to help people pick up random skills seems prudent. Failing that doing a better job in hiring to ensure that people have all the skills that you expect them to would be best for everybody.

              1. Allonge*

                To be honest my read of the ‘vast amount of schooling’ was more that OP expects these people to have skills in figuring out things new to them, not that in-between all the law classes they took Printer Unjamming 101. May be reading this wrong, I am not sure – it’s a strange way of putting whatever OP meant.

                I agree it’s good to have resources available and a lot of this is learnt informally. It definitely should not be just OP though!

    6. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I came here to say something similar to all of these comments. OP, I think you and your partner can find a middle ground here wherein neither of you are responsible for doing any of the basic training yourself (do either of you have time anyway, being lawyers and running your own firm? I’d guess not) but the training happens either because you have someone in-house who’s duties include basic training or because you outsource the training. I don’t think you can expect all your new lawyers to know everything they need to know, but you do need to make sure they get up to speed early on in their career at your firm. Is there an admin at your firm who really likes explaining tech things who you can take off some projects while they do so? If not, just find some basic Excel/Office/Zoom training courses and require your new employees to take them if they don’t know how to use those platforms.

  12. Yasmin Kara-Hanani*

    For the most part, I’d say LW #3 isn’t responsible for everything their partner might read into wearing pajamas. The one caveat to that that I see is that people do, in fact, to have to do things like run to the store and answer the door after work. If those types of tasks are all falling to the partner because LW is in pajamas, then that’s the more serious issue. But if LW is willing to change back into appropriate clothes to do their share of the errands (or go out to the occasional spur of the moment dinner or movie) this seems fine to me.

    1. Yasmin Kara-Hanani*

      *willing to change or shamelessly run to the store/take out the trash/walk the dog in pajamas, like I’ve been known to do, that is

      1. Edwina*

        me, too! I’m kind of surprised at how much I don’t worry anymore about being properly dressed to walk the dog. I’m sure my neighbors think I’m a bit odd for wearing my Crocs outside on all but the snowiest days, but they’re comfortable, even though they look like clown shoes.

        1. Reb*

          My dog got a lot more walks since I allowed myself to just be in my jarmies. Getting dressed is just not worth the effort for me. If it’s cold I can just wear socks with my crocs, anybody staring at my feet hard enough to notice is not somebody whose opinion I care about.

      2. MK*

        There is no way I am getting into the same bed as someone who is still wearing the clothes they went to the store and walked the dog in.

        3. Not a Vorpatril*

          Meh?
          As always, to each their own. My wife tends to keep the same shirt+bra on at night unless she feels like she was particularly smelly/dirty from the activities, but those usually lead to a shower, not merely a change of clothes.

        4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          you do realize that people change their PJ’s from what they wore earlier to other ones! Like I do.

          1. MK*

            People may, though at that point you are using pajamas as loungewear, and you can just…use loungewear. OP doesn’t say she does this though.

        5. Yasmin Kara-Hanani*

          To be clear, I also would not take the dog for a full-length exercise walk in pajamas (and if I did, I wouldn’t just sidle into bed in those same PJs). But for short potty-break walks around the courtyard, I don’t always bother to change into street clothes because I’ve realized someone out with a dog in say, a windbreaker over pajama pants isn’t a shocking sight around an apartment complex.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        My daughter said that one of the great things about buying a house was that if you wanted to let the dog out at night, you didn’t have to first put on pants.

        Someone upthread had an example where her husband would be in loungewear when she got home, and she absolutely read it as “I am now in for the night,” but once they talked about it it turned out he was happy to throw on some clothes and do something. So the meaning of the symbol shifted after they talked.

      4. JMC*

        I saw someone out walking a dog in pajamas and a robe a couple months back. Didn’t affect my life in any way.

    2. Jessica*

      Yeah, I can see how pajamas could seem like an “in for the night” signal, but assuming that the husband lives with LW and perhaps sometimes has conversations with them, he ought to have some idea whether it actually DOES mean that. LW, what’s the deal? Do you
      — only put on pajamas IF you don’t intend to go back out?
      –put on default pajamas but happily change back into daywear if evening plan arise?
      –strategically use pajamas to keep from having to go out in the evening?

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I think this is where it’s at.

        I’m actually like the husband in this (minus the being annoyed part) in that when I get home, I change into tracksuit bottoms and a casual shirt exactly because 1. I don’t like going out – even if that’s only to the bakery around the corner or even just the basement – in pyjamas and 2. I don’t like “doing stuff”, for lack of a better word, in pyjamas, and that includes inside my flat; they’re very clearly marked as “sleep only” to me and also, now that I think about it, somewhat “intimate”, maybe because I associate them so strongly with my bed(room).
        (However, if I were to go out go out – like to a restaurant – I would still have to change anyway so that aspect doesn’t make a material difference to me.)

        But just like you say, Jessica, the situation really boils down to: “He sees it as a sign that I’m refusing to do anything else that day.” – well, is it?

        1. londonedit*

          Yes, completely agree. Personally, when I’m in the office I like to dress a bit more smartly (mainly because I have loads of dresses that I really like) and then when I get home I’ll change into more comfortable clothes (like leggings and a sweatshirt) because dresses aren’t massively comfortable for lounging around in. Then I change into my pyjamas before bed. But I live on my own, and if I’m in for the night then most of the time I know I’m in for the night. My comfy after-work clothes are perfectly suitable for nipping to the shop or going for a quick walk – I wouldn’t do those things in my pyjamas. If a friend sent a last-minute message asking if I wanted to go out for a drink or something, I’d put nicer clothes on! And there’s no reason why the OP can’t do that.

          I think it does come down to if the husband got home and said ‘Oh, I was hoping we could pop out for a drink, do you fancy it?’, is the OP willing to change back out of their pyjamas, or is it really a ‘Nope, once the pyjamas on I’m not moving for anyone’ thing? I think it’s definitely worth a discussion. It reminds me of when I was a teenager – I had friends who would hang around in pyjamas all Saturday morning, but in my family you don’t wear pyjamas during the day unless you’re ill. So if my dad had come in and seen me watching TV in my pyjamas at 11am on a Saturday, he’d have said ‘Oh, not feeling well?’ Wearing jeans and a jumper, fine, but you were expected to get dressed into proper clothes even at the weekend. It was strange to me when I found out that not all families are like that – but it’s just one of those things that differs between different people! So I think it’s worth a discussion between the OP and their husband to dig a bit into where these assumptions are coming from and whether they’re true.

    3. Nodramalama*

      Yeah I think it probably comes down to whether pjs is actually a signal or not. If it’s not and LW is happy to change (or wear pjs) to do the grocery shopping, make that clear and there shouldn’t be an issue. But if it IS a signal that LW is done for the day, then thats a seperate issue this sub can’t really advise on

    4. Hroethvitnir*

      This. If Husband had an issue with chore allocation or staying in, he can bring that up. If he just doesn’t like what pajamas look like… yeah, not a big fan. I admit to being biased by the mention of professions here, because it swings my read more into Husband being judgemental about presentation.

      They are married! If there was a huge mismatch in expectations for presentation/how you spend your evenings, it should have come up well before now. If something has changed he can bring up the *actual* issue, not how she looks and what he’s reading into it.

      Also very funny to me the people taking umbrage at the idea of never going out. Like, that’s a totally neutral personal preference, I just think wouldn’t make sense for the letter unless the LW has suddenly changed, which it doesn’t sound like. But, man. We get home, chat, get changed into trackpants etc to walk dogs, wear that for dog walking and dinner etc, then go to bed (no pajamas). Who has energy for more? lol

      TBF, we did meet at a sport where we both trained once or twice every day, but socialising on a week night? Very rare, and when we do anything out of the ordinary… we get changed for that. If 99% of the time you aren’t going anywhere, the idea of being dressed up at home Just In Case is wild to me. I absolutely go to the shops in oversized trackpants, tramping boots, no bra and a t-shirt though. I don’t think LW’s husband would like me, haha.

      1. Myrin*

        Regarding your last two paragraphs, indeed, I am completely astonished that I apparently live in a very different world from many other commenters when it comes to after-work-life.

        I go to the supermarket after work once a week and then to the bakery and the butcher’s and the greengrocer’s around the corner once a week (sometimes on the same day as the supermarket, sometimes on a different one) and that’s it. I might go out to eat or have a drink with friends and/or coworkers but that happens, like, once a quarter and definitely not without planning beforehand.

        Now granted, I’m single and live alone so I don’t have a whole other human with their own ideas and desires and plans automatically integrated into my life but from hearing from my partnered friends and coworkers, I’ve never gotten the impression that they regularly (and spontaneously!) go out being social during the work week. There probably are some people/couples like that, but reading many of today’s comments, you’d think that’s something you have to be ready for at any given moment which is completely alien to me.

        1. Zombeyonce*

          I live with a spouse and 2 smallish kids, and I also do all my outside errand stuff (or meeting up with other kids) before I come home for the day. Once I’m home, I’m in, and it would take a very special, very rare plan to get me to leave again. The weekends are different but after work? I’m not going anywhere. I’m Team Pajamas on this one.

        2. Clisby*

          I’m with you.

          I’m retired, my husband is still working because he can’t imagine not working, and we don’t go out much on weekday nights at all. If we go out for dinner, it’s almost never spontaneous – we’ve agreed on it ahead of time, and neither of us would dream of wearing anything more formal than jeans and a t-shirt. Rarely, there’s something we want to attend (art exhibit, lecture, etc.) but we’d know that way in advance.

          Now, neither of us is in pajamas, and we fairly often go for a walk around our neighborhood, but home is the place where we rest and have some peace and quiet together.

    5. Seashell*

      Pajamas vary widely. Mine are usually a t-shirt equivalent and pants with an elastic waistband, so they wouldn’t stop me from answering the door if that happened at night (which it almost never does.).

      1. Sloanicota*

        I did wonder, is OP wearing like a Pikachu onesie, or a fetching all-flannel matching set – would OP consider dark grey or black bottoms and a soft sweatshirt instead?

    6. JB (not in Houston)*

      “The one caveat to that that I see is that people do, in fact, to have to do things like run to the store and answer the door after work”

      You don’t, actually! If I am in my pjs, I just don’t answer the door. And if I need to run to the store after work, I do it on my way home so that I don’t have to go out again once I get home. We don’t have enough information from the OP about whether these kinds of tasks are things that she is willing to change back into clothes to do, whether she expects her partner to do, or whether she doesn’t expect her or her partner to have to do. I agree it’s an issue if the OP expects these tasks to be done and expects her partner to do them. But if she doesn’t, and these are things the partner wants to do but she doesn’t, then the problem is not the pajamas, it’s a mismatch of expectations.

      1. Yasmin Kara-Hanani*

        I probably should have said “sometimes” where I said “in fact,” but even with robust planning, it’s hard to imagine that people truly never need to do any kind of “public-facing” task between 5 and 10 PM, let’s say. We don’t know specifics of OP’s situation, but they seem curious about reasons someone might theoretically object to wearing pajamas in the early evening. In the abstract, I can see someone having an issue with that if they feel like it casts them in the role of default last-minute errand runner, and that doesn’t feel like a totally off-the-wall interpretation of the partner’s comments per the OP.

        For me personally, evening errands are a regular part of my life because I take transit to and from work and knocking all my stops out before I get home isn’t feasible. And I’m with you on the not answering the door thing, actually: 99٪ of people knocking on my door post-pandemic are just signaling that they’re dropping off a package, not expecting anyone to open the door. But I used that specific example because the OP did.

        1. inksmith*

          If I have evening plans, I go straight there from work, because if I go home, I’m not going back out for anything, including plans I’ve already made and am looking forward to. Once I’m in at the end of the day, I’m IN. Any errands I can’t do on the way home from work (I also take transit) get done on the weekend.

          I don’t change into pyjamas when I get home, but I totally could – I have no problem answering the door or taking the rubbish out in my PJs, and that’s as much public contact as I’m having.

    7. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I really want to know what typ of PJ’s people are wearing that they can’t answer the door! Most Pj’s are just a large shirt and light pants. Everything is covered and no one should expect you to be put together all of the time.
      I get 1950’s how to be a good wife vibes. Like the husband expects the wife to be all dressed up waiting for him when he comes home

      1. carrot cake*

        Yes! If my husband cared about my wearing pajamas after work (unless we were going out for the evening, of course), we wouldn’t be married, because…no. What you see is what you get. Don’t like it? Move on.

        I can’t imagine what it feels like to have to be “on” in my own home with my own husband on down time.

  13. Language Lover*

    lw #1 The only thing I will train new hires on is how to set up their MS Office apps on the new computer (how to download, log in, access all the accounts) and make sure they have access to everything they need.

    If they need to know how to actually use them, I direct them to tutorials provided by our local library that they can do online. Maybe you could look to see if your local library has a software that offers tutorials on the apps?

    1. I love lawyers*

      Lemme guess, #1 is with the law firm we paid $100k to do documentation, which came back without any cross-reference field’s, meaning cross-references had to be updated manually after each turn of the documents. (More $$$ for the firm.) Have you ever met bankers who bragged about how little they train their employees in Excel? No, so why aren’t you training your lawyers in ADVANCED Word???

      1. Kuleta*

        Some places, law firms and non-legal clients alike, have complex documents prepared by lawyers and/or staff who at most know how to use the Tab key.

        Or firms are in different time zones, and Firm A on Eastern Time sends a court filing to Firm B on Pacific Time, minus table of contents and table of authorities. It’s after hours Eastern Time, and the staff who know how to generate those tables have gone home.

        Several years ago, the Firm B where I worked then finally had to tell Firm A to stop doing that. For some reason, every time we tried to generate these tables on a document we didn’t create, MS Word froze.

        1. I love lawyers*

          I also had one law firm take a document produced in-house that used fields and cross-references. The effin’ lawyers REMOVED all the cross-references (blaming their IT people and citing “security”) meaning we had to manually check work we had done. They refused to stop doing this on every turn of the document (there were about 10) costing us time and money. I asked them to stop and they said “not possible”. Of course they undoubtedly billed us for their kind efforts.

          I mean it’s bad enough when they won’t use time-saving features in Word, but to actively REMOVE features that we put in and were already there?!?! Boggle.

          I hate them, they add no value at all…

    2. Gradalag*

      I feel like these are the sorts of questions I expect to ask my peers not my boss! Like if I can’t figure out how to do something in excel or one of the specialized softwares I use and google isn’t giving me the answer, I’ll always ask one of the people in my group or my cubical mates. Maybe IT if it is something like I can’t get my camera to work.

      OP #1 can you ask the new lawyers to direct questions like that to each other?

      1. Neubert*

        The “new lawyers” likely aren’t power users of Word, and if one of them is, she’s not the de facto tutor for the entire group.

        Advanced Word skills are something a law firm should teach.

        1. Emmy Noether*

          Oftentimes, the problem is also that people don’t know what they don’t know.

          I’ve known people to be completely oblivious to the very existence of the cross-reference capabilities of Word, or how to autofill columns in Excel, for example. These are also not things I was ever taught in school. Now, I’m the type of person who will go click around every menu in a new-to-me program, but not everyone is. So some type of structured learning would increase the productivity of a lot of people…

          1. Great Frogs of Literature*

            At a previous company, I was horrified to discover that the people responsible for setting up salary bands and what the standard raises for those salaries should be didn’t know how to use Excel well enough to write a function that they could set and drag across the entire table. IIRC they were manually writing out a new function for every single cell, and had no idea that there was a different way to do it…

            Mind you, that did make it a lot clearer why I’d asked for the projected raises for my salary band months previously and still not gotten an answer.

            1. Hazel*

              This is why the OP might consider getting off the ‘why should I’ narrative and into the ‘this would make the office function more efficiently’ frame of mind.
              They are lawyers. It is far more efficient to provide training – could just be paying for an online package – and making sure they do it – than continue to pay them $100s/hour to do things inefficiently.
              And no, universities don’t teach copier fixing or Microsoft Office!

              1. I love lawyers*

                “It is far more efficient to provide training – could just be paying for an online package – and making sure they do it – than continue to pay them $100s/hour to do things inefficiently.”

                Efficient for clients yes. Efficient for the law firm no, not if they can bill $1000/hr when they only have to pay the associate $100/hr

          2. Silver Robin*

            “click around the menus” is 100% how I learned Excel and Word..And I have a decent enough sense of what the applications *should* be capable of doing (more with Excel than Word). But also, Word definitely has functions that I did not even consider until they became useful/relevant (younger me was awesome struck by mail merge!).

            Any time I teach someone how to do something, I always tell them “always click on the …” see what there is to see!

            1. Lady Danbury*

              I’ve been using Word for over 2 decades but only recently (within the last few years) learned about format painter. The amount of time I could have saved over those 2 decades!!!! I consider myself to be fairly proficient with MS programs (going back to Access, is that even around anymore), but you don’t know what you don’t know.

            2. Emmy Noether*

              Mail merge is definitely one of those functions a lot of people don’t even know exists. I’ve used it for things that have nothing to do with mailing and blown people’s minds. Change the layout of 200 placecards for the conference? Sure! Give me 2 minutes!

          3. iglwif*

            YES.

            Word is an immensely powerful application, which the overwhelming majority of people use as a souped-up typewriter. And because MS Office apps and their ilk are kind of assumed to be “intuitive” and “something everyone uses,” almost nobody gets any actual training in how to use them or what else you can do with them.

            I was a professional copy editor for 20+ years, and believe me I have Seen Some Things. And most of the time, the person has done something incredibly fiddly and difficult because the did not know how to use, or perhaps even did not know about, the quicker and easier way of doing the thing that is built into Word. (Tables are the worst offender here, but page numbering, paragraph spacing, tabs, and indents too. I think the worst thing I ever encountered was an entire book manuscript which contained ZERO paragraph breaks because the author had instead started each new paragraph by leaning on the space bar until the cursor was where he wanted it.)

    3. Cthulhu’s Librarian*

      Yup! Most public libraries offer classes in this, or have staff who will show someone how to do things. I’ll highlight that it makes things easier if you give people a list of skills they’re expected to be capable of in their role – it’s really hard for a librarian to guess whether your firm uses data validation tools in excel, or pictures in word files, for instance.

      We also often offer subscriptions to services like LinkedIn learning, where classes in these things exist.

      Also, remind folks to use YouTube! A lot of these skills have short demo videos on there, and it’s often easier for someone to learn from a video than a written set of instructions.

    4. HigherEd Boundaries*

      I work in higher education with student leaders and the number of times I had to explain calendar invitations and other basic MS Office functions to them was shocking because I felt like my generation (Millennial) had most of those skills when we entered college. I ended up creating an online training through our campus LMS with an entire module focused on Outlook (how to access shared inboxes, set up your signature, using folders, calendar invitations, BCC vs. CC, etc.). It’s been several years now and a few of those students who took the module have come back and vented about their colleagues who didn’t know these basic functions.

      1. HugsAreNotTolerated*

        Right there with you! We (Millennials) were taking “Keyboarding” or “Computing” or some type of computing classes from about elementary school up through HS. Teaching kids to touch type and use the basic functions of MS Office was a big focus in schools where they could afford to do so. Working with our college interns has taught me that those classes are no longer offered since apparently now everyone assumes that kids already know how to type, and use a computer! It’s hilarious to me that even though a kid can use an iPad to watch YouTube, that doesn’t mean that they taught themselves Excel and Outlook!

    5. JustaTech*

      Here to recommend the free online training from Microsoft.

      Many, many years ago a boss told me to create an Access database of some data that was currently in an Excel spreadsheet that was clearly not working. No one at the company used Access, so I just went to the Microsoft website and I was *amazed* how good the training was (there was a whole training module where they gave you a practice database to learn basic functions). And I successfully built an Access database I still use.

      A few years after this I happened to meet some folks from Microsoft who write all those tutorials and thanked them effusively. They were very pleased because they rarely got any feedback, let alone good feedback.

  14. Jill Swinburne*

    #5 you think it makes you look flaky and you should have stayed put, but from where I’m sitting, you could be way more valuable to that team now. You have more professional and life experience, which you wouldn’t have got if you’d been in the same role all this time. And now you know what you don’t want, you’ll appreciate your old-new team all the more.

  15. Rosacolleti*

    #3 – Fascinating! I change out of my work clothes INTO my pj’s approx 20seconds before going to bed

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Same.

      I work from home. I always dress for work (very casually and comfortably). But if I do go out in dressier, less comfy clothes I will often change back into my around the house clothes to get comfy.

      It’s not what I sleep in, though. I put that on when I get ready for bed sometimes minutes before getting into bed. I don’t spend much time in PJs outside of bed.

      1. Geriatric Rocker*

        When I get home I take my outer clothes and bra off and put my dressing gown on. I put my piggy Jim jams on just before bed.

    2. mreasy*

      I have sweats that I change into immediately when I get home, which are Activity wear. My identical pair of Sleep wear sweats I change into just before bed. Or, in warmer months, shorts. I don’t do anything out of doors in my bed wear, which is why I have comfy clothes that are allowed to go outside (eg grocery store, picking up deliveries, etc). If I am going out I usually change into something different from my work clothes anyway. The idea of wearing restrictive clothing and a bra longer than I must is awful to me.

  16. Letsgetvisible*

    I too put my Jammie on right away. I’ve also had a few work from home, days in which I just stayed in my Jammies all day. My h used to mention it to me, until I told that taking the bra off was the best part of my day and it’s how I relax. He used to have a nap on his afternoon break..lol. I put on Jammies. He stopped saying anything after that. I also love wearing all black pyjamas. People don’t know right away… ha. It comes in handy when you want to grab a quick coffee while staying in a hotel too.

  17. Isabel Archer*

    Work clothes for work. Comfy clothes for home but not bed (may or may not be “answer the door” appropriate). PJs for bed only…it’s good sleep hygiene and also a signal to my brain that it’s bedtime now. That signal is the same reason I try not to stay in my PJs all day on a weekend even if I know I’m not going out.

    1. UKDancer*

      Yes

      I often change when I get home out of my smart clothes into fleece trousers and a jumper but I only wear nightwear (usually a nightie) for bed because that works best for me. I don’t like wearing sleep clothes when I’m up and doing things.

      For me it’s more about making sure I don’t spill dinner on my smart work clothes.

    2. I take tea*

      I have this distinction too. I change into comfy clothes (and take my bra off), because it signals the end of the workday, but PJ is for bed only (if it’s winter, otherwise no PJ at all). I also find it easier to get my day started even on free days if I shower and change out of my nightwear. The signal PJ=bed is very strong for me. Yes, it means three outfits, but they don’t have to be washed every day.

    3. techie*

      Same here. I mean, I WFH and usually wear comfy clothes all day anyway, but even my sloppiest, comfiest “awake” clothes are distinguished from my pajamas. I do think it’s helpful for sleep hygiene.

    4. Dark Macadamia*

      Kind of the flip side of sleep hygiene I guess, I associate pajamas at the dinner table with being sick. It doesn’t feel mentally/emotionally good to me to have sleep clothes on while doing other things!

      1. Saturday*

        Same here. Also, crawling into bed in clothes I’ve been wearing for hours… that would just make me feel *blech*.

      2. JustaTech*

        Same here! If I’ve been home sick in bed all day I still need to get out of bed, make the bed and put on new pajamas at bedtime if I’m going to get any sleep.

  18. Barbara Eyiuche*

    1. At the law firm I used to work for, the owner most definitely did not want junior lawyers wasting their time on things that couldn’t be billed to clients. Yes, google how to do something, but if it’s taking more than a few minutes the support staff was supposed to help us.

    1. Nodramalama*

      Well it sounds like the support staff isn’t doing these tasks for them though, otherwise there wouldn’t really be an issue. At my old job the seniors never knew how to fix the printer or send a calendar invite, but they didn’t need to because I did.

      1. Nodramalama*

        Eh when I was a receptionist/assistant/support worker for lawyers I did a lot of the word heavy lifting

        1. Artemesia*

          It is reasonable for admin support to provide this support but I read it as a peer lawyer, probably a woman being asked for it.

          1. nodramalama*

            I know I’m not talking about LW, i’m talking about support staff in response to i love lawyers, which is not a peer lawyer

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            I read it as asking their boss.

            I do like the image that if the big boss sat next to the printer, they would be assumed to have mystical powers to understand its error codes.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        A relative works as a legal assistant. Don’t think most of the lawyers she currently supports or has in the past could be considered power users. (In her state, legal assistants are generally college educated, so YMMV.)

      3. Lady Danbury*

        Support staff should absolutely be Office power users. It’s literally part of their job in many firms/legal depts. Not saying that lawyers can’t be proficient also, but formatting a word doc is far more of an admin task than a legal task.

        -Signed, a lawyer who spends far more time than is efficient doing admin tasks bc I don’t have an admin but wish I did

        1. Proofin' Amy*

          I did some training as a legal secretary several years ago that was INTENSE. I learned to use Microsoft Word functions that I barely knew were there before; mostly Style settings that were considered essential for legal documents. When I temped in a big law office, all the secretaries also had to use 10 or 20 different macro buttons for formatting. It’s been a while for me, but has that changed so much? Even if the functions are different, I would definitely expect legal support staff to be Officer power users at an elite level.

        2. Annie2*

          Yeah, what? I’m a lawyer – a big part of my assistant’s job is to do all the formatting in Word docs. Not because I can’t or refuse to figure it out, but because that’s how the structure works – clients aren’t paying me to spend the time to figure out the weird paragraphing issue or why the document won’t print. That’s literally her job. Legal assistants in my experience are absolutely wizards with that kind of thing.

    3. Mel*

      “I do not apply this same expectation to our support staff who have not had as much schooling or office experience.”
      Funnily enough, I would expect support staff, especially administrative support staff, to be more proficient with general office systems, because that’s their job. Obviously, I would expect to give them training in something specialised, but if we’re talking a generic spreadsheet or word document etc, I’d expect them to know it.

      This doesn’t cover everything but I sometimes wish universities would recommend to their students that they do the ICDL or similar before job hunting. When my sister went to university 15-20 years ago (I don’t remember exactly how long ago it was because she went as a mature student and not straight from high school) it was a requirement for everyone on her degree course to have completed basic computer skills training before the course started, precisely so the university wouldn’t have to teach it themselves.

      1. Holly Gibney*

        Thank you for saying this! I expected to see way more comments like this and am a bit surprised not to.

        I read that sentence and it struck me as 1) often untrue and 2) quite elitist. I worry LW thinks support staff (or people without degrees) are by definition less intelligent/capable than those with more degrees or higher titles. I went to a highly prestigious school and the only reason I graduated knowing how to fix a paper jam on the office Xerox was because I worked as the student office assistant throughout my time in the program. Students might learn software skills, but it seems to me that basic office operations aren’t typically considered vital to higher education curricula.

        In the offices I’ve worked in, the support staff are often the most technically capable employees and the rest of the office takes them for granted. Reading what LW said about most of the people asking her for help being young men added another dimension to the letter, and I do think there’s a gender issue at play here, but LW needs to examine why they assume support staff wouldn’t know thinks that support staff are typically paid to know, like how to get a copier up and running again or how to use a mail merge for outreach.

    4. Emmy Noether*

      I don’t know if I have unusually good google-fu or what, but very rarely is asking someone quicker than googling. Google is right there already – in the time I can get hold of a human, it would have already given me the answer.

      Never mind the risk of asking someone who also doesn’t know, but “helpfully” clicks around my screen for 10 minutes.

    5. Hyaline*

      They can “waste their time” learning to do it once or they can keep wasting time indefinitely…for basic new office job skills I think it’s reasonable to expect them to learn. It’s truly a waste of everyone’s time if they never learn to, say, convert a file to a PDF.

    6. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      But it doesn’t sound like the OP is a support staff. She is their boss.
      Maybe they should assign a support staff to help with these tasks. I find it odd that she expects the lawyers to know how to use the tech but not the support staff, who are usually the ones to use a lot of those skills.

      * Does no one remember the lawyer who couldn’t get the cat face off of zoom and had to wait for his assistant to help him?

  19. Nodramalama*

    For LW1 I think its a bit odd to refuse to teach people something they actively don’t know, or don’t understand because you think they should already know it. For one thing, if multiple people are asking for help it doesn’t really matter if they should know or not, they clearly don’t. For another, i can’t think of a single lawyer I know who got training on how to use teams or zoom. Half of those a lot of people didn’t even start using until after the pandemic.

    I agree with Alison that if it’s a recurrent issue, organise training. After all, lawyers go to university but still benefit from plain language drafting training, or other professional skills training.

    1. Nah*

      I’m confused that it sounds like they haven’t put “proficient in office suite and webcam usage” on the requirements for the job when hiring, nor bring the question up in interviews. Assuming that everyone *obviously* would be a pro at all computer related tasks with seemingly no backing to that idea just doesn’t (pardon the pun) compute.

      1. Snow Globe*

        Yes, this! Talk about it before you hire them. Make sure that they at least know how to use google to figure things out, and they know to get some basic training. They may still need training in more advanced skills, but if they know the basics, they will know how to find out the answers to the more advanced stuff.

    2. Fsp3*

      I’ll teach just about anything once with no/little pushback. If it’s super simple like how to save a word or powerpoint file as a PDF, it’ll be fast anyway. Second time explanations come for the more complicated things (How to format a file upload to sharepoint and modify the metadata so it gets sorted into the correct place, not how to save as a PDF) I’ll tell them to take notes but will still usually do it. Third time asking means there’s a problem.

      1. Sillysaurus*

        I usually won’t even teach it once unless it’s something really obscure. Big fan of breezily saying “I bet that’s easy to find on google, let me know if you run into trouble.” Or I’ll direct them to a workflow or Sharepoint help site or whatever. Sometimes it would be easier to just tell them the answer, but I want my team to be resourceful and self sufficient.

    3. In My Underdark Era*

      yea to me it’s kinda silly to expect new hires to already know how to use “general office environment” technology if… they haven’t worked in an office for a while yet.

      I get the same vibes as when people think my computer science degrees make me an expert in *using* software rather than *making* it. I never took a “Microsoft office suite 101” class in college and I doubt most people have?!

      the gendered aspect does stick out to me like a sore thumb and I kinda think if the other guy wants to teach the new hires Outlook he should either do it himself or they should find someone else to do it so the letter writer isn’t shafted into a mother goose role with a bunch of grown men running to her to fix their calendars

      1. DE*

        I’m not seeing a gendered thing here and I’m not sure that that’s even how OP intended it. She specifically says it’s “younger” men coming to her with questions. I think the youth of these lawyers it what makes her think that they should already know computer stuff, not their gender. I believe we’re misinterpreting that bit of the letter.

        I really don’t think “women are better at computers” is even a stereotype. But “young people are good at computers” sure is.

        1. In My Underdark Era*

          oh no, I don’t mean that they’re coming to her because of a mythical stereotype that women are better at computers. I’m saying they could be coming to her because of the stereotype that a woman’s role in an office is as an assistant to men. the stuff she described is not computer whiz stuff, it’s basic office stuff.

          furthermore the letter writer posted some more context below (under a comment from ItsAllFunAndGamesUntil) in which she says the age gap is not that big and it’s more the gender aspect that’s bothering her because they only go to her and not the male partner for help, and (to paraphrase) the men in the group tend to act more helpless than the women.

          I’m with you that both gender- and age- related stereotypes about tech literacy are nonsense anyways and it’s silly to expect young people to come out of college knowing how to navigate an office (or Office…) already. but it’s absolutely a thing that people feel a lot more comfortable intruding on women’s time and delegating stuff like this to us.

    4. Saturday*

      I would be really surprised that someone would ask me instead of just looking online themselves to figure it out. These things are designed to be pretty easy to learn.

  20. Chris*

    “like you’re sort of giving up on anything more interesting happening that day.”

    There are plenty of ‘interesting’ things you can do in pajamas.

    3. Perihelion*

      There was just a day or two ago a Dear Prudence letter by a guy complaining about his girlfriend wearing pajamas in their home. Why is this a thing? Isn’t the point of a home to be comfortable? Clothes can be changed if you want to do something.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’m out gardening in my PJs on weekend mornings, to be honest. I make myself a two or three pairs of soft pants every year, all out of ridiculous fabrics, and pretty much live in them whenever I’m not being expected to Adult. There are levels of PJ-edness, that include how many undergarments I’m wearing, and I swap them out from day to day, but that’s about it.

      I work from home in them, with some sort of Adult top if I need to be on camera.

      I do it in part to “save” my hard to find good fitting Adult pants from being worn out.

      And I can’t tell you how many times a text string with me and my friends includes the phrase “OK, I’ll get my pants on and let’s go.” (from both sides)

  21. Happily Retired*

    Re OP #1 (training new attorneys on office-related skills) – I’m a downright geriatric college student (age 70) finally getting my bachelors, and I have found that NONE of my delightful fellow students use or are even familiar with Office programs, and in fact downright despise them. They didn’t learn Office in high school, and they practically have a stroke when a professor wants them to submit a paper in Word document form. They use Google Docs almost exclusively, which I despise in turn. So yay, I know how to hide a column in Excel, but I have struggled mightily on the proper way to download, save, share, etc. a chemistry lab report in Googleland, and I still get twitchy at the fact that other people can edit my stuff.

    Also, college students (and I guess law students) don’t use Teams and all, so you’re being quite unrealistic IMO in thinking that they should know this stuff. OK, maybe they might have picked it up in a summer internship, but what if they were at a site that didn’t use them?

    Agreed, they should be able to learn Office products via tutorials and only then ask for help, but if you want a well-functioning office (lower-case o), you need to be willing to work with them on using calendars, Teams, and all the rest of things that make work possible.

    Agree that if you’re the woman and getting all these requests for training, that needs to be addressed, but that’s a separate issue.

    2. Tacky Halloween Decor*

      Yup. I work in IT for a university and contrary to popular belief young people are not magically more competent with computers. They can only use what they can use, and turns out people don’t know things if you don’t teach them. Who knew.

      Now could they figure it out by googling and reading? Probably, but people are surprisingly resistant to learning now things when, in their mind, they already know something else that does the job too.

      1. Tacky Halloween Decor*

        (Or googling and watching videos for that matter. There’s little about Office functions that you won’t find on YouTube)

      2. Tangerine steak*

        Plenty of my students don’t use computers. They use phones, and sometimes tablets.

        COVID taught us that many of our students did not own computers.

        Admittedly my field does not have essays much – and you can hand write everything and just take photos to submit on your phone.

        1. Tacky Halloween Decor*

          This too.

          The most extreme example of someone not knowing things they were never taught was a student who called in a slight panic because they couldn’t type in lowercase letters on a computer.

          They genuinely thought that because the letters on a computer keyboard don’t change, you can’t type in lowercase.

          Again, this is a very extreme example and by no means a general thing, but it illustrates the point of not knowing stuff when you haven’t been taught and haven’t needed it before nicely.

    3. ex College lecturer*

      There is also the issue of who are these people supposed to be teaching these skills, as an ex college lecturer with children, I found it was the case of them being shown a computer in primary school, shown computer basics applying only to their class in secondary school and at college assumed to be geniuses with computers. Only at the college was there a specific course for office PC skills and that was aimed directly at the “try and be a secretary, don’t take drugs and get up the duff” mandatory enrolled students.

      And technology is always moving on, why use Word when you can use Google Docs, why use Teams when you can use Discord. Why are you using landlines rather than VOIP calling.
      For the Attorney in question surely assuming everyone to have the skills you have is is rather short-sighted.

    4. AsstPlantProf*

      Agreed about college students these days—I’ve been teaching long enough for some of my students to now have graduated law school, and for that whole time I’ve found that most of them aren’t used to Microsoft Office. Since I teach biology, I have to very explicitly tell them that they need to download the application version of Excel and use it in class—most of them don’t have it on their computers already. So the background gap for Office specifically may be much higher than the LW realizes. It’s very much a generation thing, as far as I can tell, and largely about what they used in school.

        1. Happily Retired*

          Oh lord, Chromebooks. I had one and donated it to my church in a matter of months. I hated it. We use them in chem labs, and they leave me gibbering in frustration.

          Others have said that if you know how to do X, you can pretty much figure out how to do Y. And I get that. For my professional career, I used Windows at work and Mac at home, and other than occasional brain freezes (“Where’s the damn screenshot button?!”), I was fine. But learning Chromebook’s cute little changes? None of which seem like improvements to me? Nope.

          1. Tacky Halloween Decor*

            Chromebooks are nothing but trouble and should crawl back into whatever fiery pit of Mount Doom they came from.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        The variances between google docs and Office are so minimal as to be negligible. Plus it’s extremely googlable.
        A person who knows gdocs and can’t figure it out in Office is not trying. A person familiar with neither maybe needs training or maybe needs google. Depends on the details.

      3. Strive to Excel*

        That’s not too surprising with how much schools are pushing collaborative work. I’m reasonably tech-competent and the Office 365 sharing feature is painfully unintuitive. Google Docs/Sheets is much easier to use if you want 4 people editing the same document at odd times.

    6. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Yeah I just completed my “Email 101” training with a new hire who told me she never used email much at Uni and was baffled by Outlook at first; most people don’t know “the basics” initially without experience in a work environment. And it’s not intuitive!

    7. Generic Name*

      I agree with all of this. My son is a high school senior, and he uses google products on his school issued Chromebook. While I did use Word as an undergrad, I didn’t know anything about formatting, and I taught myself how to do a basic PowerPoint deck in grad school. But I certainly wasn’t using outlook before I had my first job. Colleges don’t typically teach that stuff unless a student seeks out a basic computing class, if one is even offered.

    8. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      > and I still get twitchy at the fact that other people can edit my stuff

      This might be something that can be set differently in different environments, I don’t know. But my workplace uses the Google office products, and we can absolutely share a document to be viewable only. (We can actually restrict it down to the specific person, or make an office-wide restriction.) I’m sorry you’re having trouble and I wish I could offer to help. (Because that’s part of what I do, professionally.)

    9. JustaTech*

      So what I’m learning from everyone here today is that I will need to teach my kiddo how to use Office (and directories and file systems and all that jazz) at home because it isn’t taught in school.

      Cool. He’s not 2 yet, so I’ve got some time. We’ll include it with the programming games.

    10. Orange You Glad*

      I agree. I hire a lot of college students on their work assignments (like a long term internship) as well as recent grads. I’ve noticed over the years the decline in understanding of Outlook for email. I’ve had students just not understand it at all, and try to only access email from the online exchange server access. They usually pick up Teams quickly once they get used to opening it everyday – it seems a lot get experience with Slack and similar programs outside of work. I also get a lot that talk about the MS office classes they’ve taken, but can’t figure out how to Google a basic excel formula.

    11. Timothy (TRiG)*

      I (41) would also despise it if a professor asked me to submit a document in MS Word form, because I do not use Microsoft, and I do not see why I should have to buy an operating system and office suite just to go to college. (Especially one like modern Windows, which is essentially spyware.)

      When I was in college as an adult, I wrote all my assignments in LaTeX and submitted them as PDFs. (And no, I wasn’t studying physics or mathematics, and my assignments included no mathematical formulae. I just enjoyed playing with LaTeX. It would probably have been more practical for me to use Libre Office.)

      (I do share your disdain for Google Drive. I always found it impossible to navigate, and very confusing whether a document was in my Drive or someone else’s Drive or what. There’s a complex permissions structure which made no sense to me. And public documents I happened to have viewed once three years ago are now apparently in my Drive? Maybe there’s a way to remove them? I don’t know. It’s all a confusing mess.)

  22. lyonite*

    OP5: FWIW I’ve known several people who sought out working for a favorite boss when the opportunity arose, and I’ve never thought much about it other than, “Yeah, when you find someone you work well for, you want to stick with them.” If anything, it speaks well of the boss!

    1. Web of Pies*

      I agree! It’s hard to admit you made a mistake and ask to come back, but any good boss would be thrilled to have a great employee back. I also did this and I’m so happy I did!

  23. Emilu*

    Team PJs all the way. The second I get home from anything, the PJs are on. I have also been known to lightheartedly complain when someone wants me to do something that socially makes me change into what I dub “actual human” clothes.

  24. Radical Edward*

    I have been Team Loungewear for most of my adult life. While I have never had a job that started as early as a public school teacher’s, my first job was a physically demanding one that often got dusty or dirty, so although I needed to wear comfortable clothes, they weren’t fit to keep wearing after walking in the door. I got used to immediately changing into yoga pants and a tshirt or similar (and taking off my bra, also a key signal that my body and mind could exit Public Mode). Over the years I came to appreciate that clear divide in my day, and how it helped me to relax in the evenings – and it really made me notice how constricting even “comfortable” work attire can feel, once I got used to spending more waking hours in looser, softer garments. Now I can’t bear to so much as wear jeans around the house unless I’m doing yard or maintenance work!

  25. Soft Clothes Fan*

    I’m an attorney, and I change into what I call “soft clothes” (sweatpants, t-shirt, no bra) as soon as I get home. I wear the same thing on the weekends. When my husband and I go out, I change into jeans or a dress or whatever is appropriate.

    Multiple outfit changes is not hard, it feels like something deeper is going on here. I would take real issue with someone assuming that wanting to be comfy after work equated to laziness. Especially someone close to me who presumably sees how hard I work, at a stressful job.

    1. KateM*

      Yes, I do the same. I’m in t-shirt and sweatpants right now as I drove kids to school, now I will drop the pants and socks and have a nap (would never go into bed in same pants that I have been wearing outdoors), then I will change to fancier work clothes, and then when back at home to sweatpants again.

    2. FashionablyEvil*

      I didn’t see anything malicious, just a sense that maybe sometimes her husband would like to go out for an impromptu dinner or event and feels like that door is shut.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        It’s odd that he doesn’t seem to consider it’s pretty easy to change into “outside” clothes again if they both want to go out.

    3. Maleficent2026*

      Haha, I call them soft clothes too! Anything with an elastic band and no buttons or hooks.

  26. My oh my*

    For #3, I think it’s less about changing into pajamas after work, but more about changing into pajamas when you still are spending time with someone else.

    I also suspect your husband is trying to hint that he wants to see you in cuter outfits during your evenings together.

    1. But what to call me?*

      Spending time with someone else as in living in the same house and presumably interacting while they do it? Why should OP’s standard for acceptable relaxation have to include looking cute for her husband if she doesn’t feel like it? It’s her house, not a date. She’s not there to provide eye candy.

      1. Artemesia*

        I have. had a partnership marriage for decades and I still try to do the things that make my husband happy and vice versa. When it takes so little effort why would you not care what he thinks or what he wants from you?

        1. bamcheeks*

          It takes little effort FOR YOU. For other people, it’s actually a pretty big deal to not be able to be comfortable and relaxed because your partner wants you stay “on” and prioritising their needs over your own, especially after a full day’s teaching.

          Maybe that is LW’s husband’s expectation! It would not fly with me.

        2. Gemini Rising*

          Why do you keep asserting that this does not take much effort? How do you know that? Why do you keep insisting that a woman should be expected to subsume her own wants to those of a man? Why have you internalised all of these awful, sexist messages about relationships without apparently ever being willing to interrogate them? Why do you keep promoting a hopelessly outdated, antiquated, sexist approach to relationships?

          Why are you like this?

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Why do you keep insisting that a woman should be expected to subsume her own wants to those of a man?
            Artemisia hasn’t said anything about only one gender doing this for only the other gender. It is in fact very normal to make shifts for things your partner feels strongly about if you don’t. In this case, the shift from “clothes in which I won’t answer the door” to “stretchy clothes which are as comfortable as pjs, but I would answer the door in them” would preserve comfort on her end while removing the feeling he shouldn’t interrupt her bedtime routine on his end.

            Why are you like this?
            Why have you added gender to Artemisia’s gender neutral position when constructing a straw opponent?

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Adding, there’s a whole genre of advice letter that tries to present the middle ground between “X is very important to my partner” and “I myself don’t care about X” as “So the compromise outcome midway between those two positions is that we do things my way, which is absolutely no X. But I don’t feel strongly about it!”

              Where the normal thing operating in good faith is that if something isn’t a big deal to you but matters to your partner, you do the thing that would make them happy.

            2. Nonsense*

              The LW doesn’t say anything about not answering the door in her pjs – that’s an assumption you added. Most pj’s are perfectly acceptable for answering the door, and taking out the trash, and getting the mail.

              And to your question, we live in a society that is constantly barraging women to look pleasing to men at all times, so there may be a very gendered aspect to the husband’s request. Many commenters have pointed out there’s a big difference if his complaint is that she doesn’t want to go out once she’s changed vs that she doesn’t look acceptable to him – one of those merits discussion, and the other is a load of crock. A lot of commenters are also reading Artemsia’s comments as implying that a good wife would of course compromise her comfort because her husband doesn’t like something. That is also a load of crock.

              1. Falling Diphthong*

                The LW doesn’t say anything about not answering the door in her pjs.

                From the letter: He changes out of his suit into more casual clothes, but he doesn’t dress down to the point that he wouldn’t want to answer the door or run to the store. Since this is contrasted with her dressing down to pajamas, people are reasonably concluding that these are things that she would not do.

                A lot of commenters are also reading Artemsia’s comments as implying. Adding a gendered part to a non-gendered suggestion can also be a load of crock.

                Artemisia is phrasing this as “things a couple does for each other.” The dynamic here, where one person’s “relaxed” is the other person’s “don’t ask me to do anything or go anywhere, even answering the door,” is one you can easily have with same sex couples. You could have it from a wife to a husband in his boxer’s, and I have seen it that way. You can have it with siblings who live together, and so there is zero expectation of looking sexy for each other, but if one person is always just the logical choice to do those little chores that crop up, every single time, it starts to grate. And if part of the siblings or friends living together is companionship rather than pure finances, then one person might object to feeling like their presence intrudes on the other’s checked out time.

                1. JM60*

                  From the letter: He changes out of his suit into more casual clothes, but he doesn’t dress down to the point that he wouldn’t want to answer the door or run to the store. Since this is contrasted with her dressing down to pajamas, people are reasonably concluding that these are things that she would not do.

                  I think that’s an unwarranted assumption. That’s what he is comfortable answering the door or running to the store in. It doesn’t means that she isn’t comfortable answering the door in her pajamas after work (and doesn’t do so).

          2. Pescadero*

            “Why do you keep insisting that a woman should be expected to subsume her own wants to those of a man?”

            A woman should not be expected to subsume her own wants to those of a man.

            EVERYONE in a relationship should be expected to subsume their own wants to those of the other person in the relationship.

        3. Zombeyonce*

          Aren’t all marriages partnerships? I’d like the husband to put in some effort to understand why LW may need a physical change into clothes that make her feel comfortable after a long day of teaching.

          My husband doesn’t give a fig what I wear unless those clothes make me uncomfortable, in which case he thinks I should change. Our partnership is one where he cares about my feelings and needs just as much as his own, if not more so.

        4. biobotb*

          Look, you might feel that being physically uncomfortable so that your spouse would find you more attractive once they get home to be “little effort,” but not everyone does. I would find it demoralizing to be married to someone who expected me to be uncomfortable in my own home, even when he’s not there, just so I could look a little cuter when he is home. Also, if that’s what his attraction hangs on–work clothes vs. pjs–it’s not very strong.

      2. Pescadero*

        Because both people in a relationship should be compromising to be attractive to their significant other.

    2. Nodramalama*

      I think its less about ‘cute’ outfits and more that husband thinks that wearing pjyamas is a clear indicator that they’re not planning on doing anything for the rest of the evening

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Yeah, I get a major ick if thats what the husband wants. Reads to me like those 1950’s wife magazines that told wives that they needed to freshen up their makeup and change into a nice dress before their husbands got home.

      1. My oh my*

        Some people are more prim and proper than others, and some people appreciate aesthetics and fashion. I like it when my family (parents, kids) look nice when we sit down to dinner. It makes the meal feel more special. I like it when my friends look nice when we go out. I like going to the grocery store about 1 pm on Sundays because a lot of people are coming from church and are all dolled up. This race to the bottom in terms of clothes is depressing.

  27. Always forget what name I use here*

    I work from home and have a middle schooler with various activities before and after school. There are days I make sure she’s up, log on and work, drop her off and come home to a super busy day, do various pick ups and drop offs and never make it out of pajamas until it’s time to put on fresh ones. On days I actually have time to dress I usually have something specific I know I’m going to do (today was parent teacher conference), but I was in pajama by 7.

    1. Always forget what name I use here*

      I should probably say that I have sort of cultivated a “Is it pajamas or is it swanky?” wardrobe so that my partner never knows if it’s fancy or pajamas until I put on a bra and heels.

      1. My oh my*

        This is interesting. I have something similar – I call it rags or swanky. My rags are pajamas, lounge gear, workout clothes. I work from home (in “rags”), and my main daily outside the house activity is going to the gym, so I am in “rags” much of my time. My swanky clothes are really nice – a lot of medium nice dresses (I favor Boden and Lilly Pulitzer lately) and a fair number a really nice dresses (dinners, performances). I hate wasting my nice clothes when no one sees them, so I don’t wear them around the house. They’re expensive and clothes don’t last an infinite number of washes. And I’m a messy eater. But this honestly kinda makes me depressed. I’m a fashionista who spends 98% of her time in rags. I deliberately tried to put together a “middle ground” wardrobe this last year and utterly failed. I was going to wear these middle ground clothes while I worked at home and went to the gym. And maybe sometimes at more casual events with my friends (I’m often a tad overdressed at things like bookclub, barbecues, etc). However, what happened was I still wanted to wear rags at home, and dresses while seeing my friends no matter how casual the get together. The middle ground clothes never felt right. Oh well, I tried!

        1. Always forget what name I use here*

          Mine is a lot of jersey dresses, flown pants and tops in various soft fabrics and lounge sets usually in some knit material that look kinda fancy with the right accessories. Add in some “is it a robe or is it a long cardigan?” and that’s pretty much it.

  28. Whale whale whale*

    LW#3, the only reason I don’t change into pajamas after I finish work is because I always sleep in shorts and a t-shirt, and that doesn’t work for housewear year round. But I do change to loungewear, even though I work from home. It’s one of my signals that the work day is done – shut down the computer, do some kind of exercise and change to loungewear.

  29. pcake*

    To me, PJs feel warm, homey and safe. I can’t imagine a reason not to wear them in one’s own home. I absolutely can’t imagine why someone would have an issue with someone wearing them if no guests are expected. I also think not all people get tired or need destressing at the same rate, so how your husband dresses, feels or acts after work won’t be how you or anyone else does the same.

    1. But what to call me?*

      Yes to this. He’s welcome to wear whatever he wants at home, but what business is it of his what OP wears? If he feels like household tasks aren’t being evenly distributed or something then that’s a separate issue. I’m actually finding myself getting a little angry on OP’s behalf. It’s everyone’s own business whether they want to wear PJs in their own home when there aren’t any guests around.

    2. Nodramalama*

      I feel like it could be a bigger issue that husband feels like by getting into pjs that his spouse is essentially making a unilateral decision that they’re not doing anything for the rest of the night.

      1. londonedit*

        I think this is it. Husband is on his way home thinking ooh, I’d really like to pop out for a drink, or maybe we should go out for dinner? Maybe that’s how he likes to decompress and relax after work, by getting out of the house and doing something. Whereas the OP likes to decompress and relax after work by getting straight into comfy PJs. So then the husband gets home, sees that OP is curled up on the sofa wearing pyjamas, and thinks ‘Oh, right, well that’s my idea of a nice dinner out down the drain then’.

        But the issue here is less the pyjamas themselves, I think, and more the communication around it. If the OP puts pyjamas on, is that it, they’re signalling that they’re not leaving the house again? Would they be happy to change into something else if the husband suggested popping out for a meal? And does the husband ask, or do they just come in, see the OP in pyjamas, and get in a huff about it because they wanted to go out? I feel like there needs to be some communication here about how they both want to relax, what they want to do in the evenings, and whether there’s any room for compromise. Maybe the husband could text the OP earlier in the day to ask whether they fancy doing something after work. Or maybe the OP could let the husband know that if they fancy going out, that’s fine, and they’re happy to get changed. Sort of feels like there are a lot of assumptions being made here that might benefit from being talked through.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Then he needs to communicate that to her and not just be angry that she is wearing PJ’s. Also, you can change back into other clothes if they do go out.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          This is the part that confuses me. PJs aren’t like…superglued to your skin until 6am the next day. Hell sometimes I’ll put on PJs, shower, and then put on different PJs. If we choose to run to the store I’ll pull on some jeans or if we have plans I’ll put on something else. But if I am not immediately doing an Activity, I’d like to be comfy in my own house.

        2. Anne Shirley Blythe*

          100%. If he wants to do something after a workday knowing his spouse has a tiring job, he should have the courtesy to suggest it ahead of time. Being spontaneous is great…when you have lots of energy. But a good many of us need planning and pacing.

      3. biobotb*

        His feelings are his problem, then. If his interpretation were accurate, why would she be writing in? He’d be right, she’d be glued to the couch.

  30. spaceelf*

    OP 1, consider that this training, no matter how seemingly basic, establishes an baseline that incoming new employees can 1) know what they’re expected to use for their jobs 2.) know that your office cares enough about good onboarding that this training has been established 3.) potentially understand their data security responsibilities using company confidential data and maybe 4.) get everyone on the same page as to how the office expects employees to use tools for the company.

    Trust me, this is good onboarding and it makes your office looks organized and new attorneys know they can get the support they need so they can focus on winning cases or whatever new attorneys do. It’s a good practice any manager would embrace if you think about it. Nothing sucks worse that coming into a new job and not knowing where to go for IT help and feeling isolated over it.

    TBH, we don’t know which platform people are used to using. Zoom as a mainstream thing was almost unheard of prior to the pandemic which started like, what, 4 years ago? And My employer used Teams. I never had to use Zoom, and was stuck figuring it out on my own one day 4 minutes before a meeting.

    1. Silver Robin*

      +1 agreed to all of this. There is very very little that is actually reasonably “common knowledge”. Lots of people are going to have a random gap somewhere, not always in the same place. Establishing a baseline and having that training available as a refresher for everyone is going to be so helpful.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        +2 as a lawyer who has run my own department and trained more junior lawyers for almost a decade. This is the type of training that helps them spend less time on non-legal tasks and more time on legal tasks, which is exactly what you want.

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Agreed, this is all excellent advice! And as far as “we all started using Zoom in the pandemic and now we all know how to use it” goes, well, sure, we can all sign into Zoom calls, but how many of us actually led meetings with it? Do we know how to share a screen? And there are so many different levels of Zoom, so even if you know how to lead a small meeting with the basic level of the platform, do you know how to run a Zoom meeting with a large number of participants using a higher price version of the platform? There are so many variables even in a single platform, spaceelf is correct that training your new employees on how tech is used specifically in your office is the way to go here.

    3. higheredrefugee*

      Just because you used one platform doesn’t mean you know how to use admin tools or be the one who issues invites or that everyone can switch amongst platforms without some support. That support can be online tutorials though supplementing with your office/local bar norms should be doable.

  31. Lisa*

    LW3, this is what “athleisure” was invented for! Clothes that are comfy but that you still could run to the store or the mailbox in.

    Your clothes are sending the signal that you are done doing anything and ready for bed. You don’t have to stay in your work outfit and you don’t have to wear a new comfy outfit every day (unless you want to) but I don’t think this is a hill worth dying on when there’s a simple solution.

    1. But what to call me?*

      Only if he chooses to interpret them that way.
      I would absolutely die on the hill of being able to dress how I want in my own home. If OP isn’t doing their share of the housework and grocery shopping then that’s a separate issue that clothes aren’t going to solve.

        1. They Need To Talk*

          No, it’s really not. Despite the (frankly alarming) enthusiasm of the comment section to share their own personal clothing choices, it’s not about what she is wearing at all. It’s about a lack of communication and the assumptions being made. He could make the same assumptions if she was in legging and a t-shirt.

          1. doreen*

            He could – but that doesn’t mean he would. There’s a reason the OP mentions this

            “he doesn’t dress down to the point that he wouldn’t want to answer the door or run to the store. “

          2. londonedit*

            It’s not really ‘frankly alarming’ that people are sharing what they do, because the subject of the question itself is asking whether it’s weird to change into pyjamas straight after work. So of course people are responding with ‘Not weird, I do it!’ or ‘Yeah it’s a bit weird, I put on comfy clothes but PJs are for bed’.

            However, you and a lot of other people are right that the question isn’t really about pyjamas at all.

    2. Nah*

      The simple solution being not policing OP’s manner of dress in her own home after spending the entire day wrangling 30+ small children, yes!

  32. pen*

    I definitely change into pajamas as soon as I get home, but I also work 12 hour shifts and am rarely going anywhere but home to eat and then sleep.

  33. Chezzer*

    Re: pajamas
    I work from home and only get dressed if leaving the house. My industry is casual, so me wearing a T-shirt (that I both wear out and to bed) in a video call is unremarkable. My husband has multiple outside-the-house jobs and changes into comfy pants as soon as he gets home. I think your spouse just has different ideas about casual vs. bedtime. That’s a them problem. I immediately take off hard pants and my bra when I get home, and if I need to put them back on for some reason, I can. Maybe your husband just doesn’t know how to relax and is jealous.

  34. Jessica*

    I always feel like the way to solve problems with people not knowing things is not to be mad about when/how/where/from whom they should have already learned the things, but just teach them the things they need to know. Meet them where they are. On the other hand, the idea that a partner in the firm needs to spend her days instructing new hires on how to use the stapler is ridiculous.

    First, if someone doesn’t have the resourcefulness and initiative to google a problem or watch a youtube video, are they really cut out to be a successful lawyer? I feel dubious about this.

    But secondly, if this is such a chronic problem, I’d solve it with admin support staff. Hire someone who’s been in the workforce for a minute and does have mad skills at the MS Office suite, basic computer use in a business environment, and other current office technology. Make sure you also hire for someone who’s good at (and enjoys) teaching, and also teaching people not just how to do stuff, but also how to find out for themselves how to do the stuff. Finally, make it clear to both your novice lawyers and your new admin support person that their job is to do this training as part of onboarding and teach new hires the skills they’ll need, not to do it all for them and handhold them for the rest of their careers. Hire someone who’ll be able to set boundaries with the lawyers, and back them up. Then treat them decently and pay them well so that hopefully they’ll stick around, and problem solved.

    Alternatively, considering the demographics of the problem, have you and your partner considered simply hiring women?

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Yup, 100%.

      For OP’s question of “should the manager be the teacher” – no. The manager themselves specifically should not be teaching people how to use tech.

      But having a basic tech orientation tucked into that onboarding and training program they’re talking about, including a section on how to troubleshoot, would be completely reasonable.

  35. Alex*

    Re: pajamas immediately after work

    I have almost always put pajama pants and a tshirt on as soon as I get home from work. Putting casual but public-intended clothes on would add about 1/3 more laundry to do, and for what? Possibly answering the door or running an errand? I’ll change clothes if that happens, but let me be comfy after a whole day in a uniform or business casual.

    1. KateM*

      I’d think on the other side that if you wear pajamas to home AND bed you will wash them more often than when you wear them only to bed. So I doubt that the actual volume of laundry changes much.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Do you wear pjs multiple consecutive nights?
        I wash pajamas after every wearing. It makes no difference if I wore it in the evening and then to bed, or just while sleeping. Once I take them off on waking, they’re in the hamper.
        Adding an interim outfit just in case I might go out adds laundry. Only changing if I actually do need to go out after having put on pajamas does not.

        1. Crepe Myrtle*

          same, I don’t re-wear sleep clothes multiple days in a row. So the amount of laundry doesn’t change.

        2. JustaTech*

          I personally wear the same set of PJ’s multiple nights running (I’m not a sweaty person and I only wear my PJ’s to sleep).
          I don’t have room in my dresser for 5+ sets of summer and winter jammies.

  36. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    1. This is something that comes up often in my line of work (IT). You can have a fresh new graduate who can build and maintain a database but who absolutely blanks upon facing an old Windows version (I still run a 3.1 machine). Or a copy of Outlook.

    It’s not your job to train them, and yes if you’re female a lot of people expect you to be a natural teacher and that sucks, but directing them to a good source is very helpful. I’d actually avoid telling them to just google it because unless you know how to use a search engine well (which is a highly sought after skill people!) you get a heckuva lot of dross and they won’t know what is right.

    So a few seconds of ‘go to this series of videos/websites’ can remove the stress. Or if it’s much older technology hire a forklift to carry the manuals over to their desk.

  37. Professional Lurker*

    OP5: I work in a small field and people migrating between companies is super common here. One of the product managers in my company has become a running joke by now, having left and then come back at least 3 times. As long as you have a reputation of a good worker and teammate, nobody bats an eye.

    I’ve had two of the people in my own team return after a year or two elsewhere, and I’ve been nothing but happy to have them back both times. It beats having to train someone new.

  38. Jordan*

    Office workers often sit during work hours , teachers rarely sit for long periods during their day. So that’s a big difference between #3 and husband.

    To mix up the relax pjs, vs regular clothes
    – I’m a public school teacher with split shifts.
    I start at 8 in the morning, and last class ends at 9pm
    -But I have a 2-3 hour break in the middle.
    On days I come home between (because 13 hours is a lot on my poor old feet) and decide to lie down I change into sleep clothes, but might just do half and half. Work top, lounge bottoms, or vice versa.
    Since my work day ends late, I might take shower after lunch, then change into “play clothes/house wear”, but then change back to fresh work clothes for the 2nd shift.
    If I spend the break in my work/teaching clothes, there’s a limited relax mentality. So if I want the full relaxation, I have to physically dress different
    FWIW, most teachers in my experience do all the errands, extras etc on the way home. So once they’re home, they are in for the duration.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yes to all of this. My husband is a teacher and I’m an office worker. He often has to go through more laundry than I do (no “day two jeans” when your job is that active) and does the bulk of any errands or whatever on his way home. We both want to be comfy after work, and reset our brains, so we always change into PJs.

  39. Coverage Associate*

    Lawyer here. Outlook, Teams, Jabber, Office, etc. are all things you have to learn somehow, and that learning is generally not for academic credit just like it’s not billable to a client.

    And the stakes can be high. For example, it is not obvious that when you forward an invitation in Outlook, a copy goes to the original sender. Outlook invitations come in as emails, and when you forward an email, the original sender doesn’t get a copy of the forward. Now Outlook lets you add text and attachments when you forward an invitation. Do you really want to save a penny by not training your associates on this, only to have them add a privileged attachment to an internal forward of an external invitation? This is the kind of thing that is unlikely to come up in school even if the school relies on Outlook, because you’re not dealing with confidential information in school in the same way.

    Or consider everything we have been reading here about use of AI or transcription or recording on video calls. Or just the lawyer who was not a cat.

    Then there are the rules of court and attorney ethics requiring attorneys to be current on the technology they use. Better E&O insurers write it into their policies.

    Find an online course to cover the software features attorneys are most likely to use and require all new employees to finish it in the first week or month working for you unless they can show they don’t need it. (Interestingly, I might expect an admin applicant to have some of the free Microsoft certificates, but not an attorney.) You will spend a penny but save a pound and maybe your license.

    And I have worked where I had to know how to do fancy things with Word, like adding an image or setting up a caption, myself, or where the admins were too busy to help me, and I have worked where I type in the substance and an admin formats even the easy headings and everything else. Guess where I was happier and where the partners didn’t have to obsess about clients cutting bills for excessive time? Guess what jobs I have left because I just couldn’t get the administrative help to bill efficiently?

    1. CTT*

      This is a more eloquent version of everything I wanted to say. I’ll add that at my firm, support staff use all the same programs that I do and some that I don’t because they are an integral part of our firm and work doesn’t get done without them. I feel like LW is holding them to a lower stand and not expecting them to know as much, but that would not be reflective of the firms I’ve worked in.

      1. honeygrim*

        I mostly agree, with the caveat that Alison’s suggestion to ask them to search for an answer first would probably be my go to action. That would be especially true for those folks who constantly ask me how to do basic things. From my experience hiring and training people, I think “the initiative and resourcefulness to attempt basic troubleshooting/problem-solving” is one of the most important job (and life) skills anyone can have. I’ve hired people who didn’t have that skill, and I ended up having to “micromanage” their training in a way that shouldn’t have been necessary for an adult coming into that particular job.

        If a lot of people are asking about the same specific task, it might be that the task is outside of their previous computer experience. But if it’s one or two people asking about a lot of different things, I’m going to start nudging them toward “try to find the answer on your own first.” But I haven’t worked anywhere with billable vs nonbillable hours.

        1. Coverage Associate*

          My problem with sending people, especially lawyers, to google is that you don’t know what you don’t know. Google will tell you how to forward the external invitation internally and how to add an attachment to the forward, but unless it’s a formal instruction video or post, and maybe only if it’s one made for the type of job, it might not tell you that the original sender will receive a copy of the forward and attachment.

          Or consider the tip in the comments earlier this week to use AI for proofreading. Lawyers generally can’t do that because of the privacy issues, but it might be normal in other industries.

          I haven’t been involved in selecting the online training I am recommending, just taking it. I know a law focused version will be on the expensive side. Maybe there are free basic courses and law/finance/medicine add ons that are cheaper than law specific. But in some areas of law, just the free stuff will be insufficient.

    2. Rebekah*

      Yes, very much this. I also think there’s something a little… off about OP being willing to train support staff on technology, which to me (former support staff in a similar environment) is a core, basic job requirement that shouldn’t need to be trained for. But they’re unwilling to train the lawyers because they are highly trained and get paid a lot? But lawyers aren’t highly trained in everything, they’re highly trained in law. If OP is seeing that a lot of new lawyers lack basic tech skills it’s because apparently they can graduate law school without ever being taught them.

      And on the note of higher level people lacking tech skills and being too proud to ask for help or delegate to admins. At my last job the professional I was assisting was a terrible micromanager who refused to just let admin do their jobs and then ended up doing things badly because he didn’t have the tech and admin knowledge we did. Which is how he managed to send an outside firm his entire client database instead of a database report. The data breach was catastrophic and involved pretty much every type of confidential financial and personal piece of info you can imagine for hundreds of people.

      Moral of the story: If you are expecting people to use tech and they don’t know how, just train them. Otherwise you may have to clean up a mess beyond your wildest imagining.

    3. Boof*

      Yes this!! Absolutely online course +/- a dedicated trainer depending on the complexity and need. I get if admin don’t want to be constantly bugged with “oh, how do I attach an email again? Can you just do it for me?” but at the same time, there needs to be a good easy answer on how to do it or high chance it just won’t happen right at all. An online tutorial/ref guide is easy for everyone.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      +1

      I’m torn because a firm partner should not be spending their time training other lawyers in the basics of how to use office software. On the other hand, there are very specific and important rules around technological competency, both professional ethics rules (such as “you are not allowed to avoid using e-mail any more”) and court procedural rules (such as “you must redact certain information in your PDFs and filenames, and it must be done so that no one can discover the information by copying a line of text and pasting the line into a new document”).

      1. Strive to Excel*

        It definitely shouldn’t have to be a firm partner! Hire someone from outside, find someone internally who has a lower billable rate but has good tech skills, find a good digital course, whatever you like.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      110% this!!! I’ve even seen CLE’s on technology competence. A quick google shows that the State Bar of Michigan even has a podcast entitled Train Your Employees to Use Technology on its website, as part of its technology core competence resources. In this day and age, basic technology skills are a requirement for a competent lawyer and should be taught to any employees who don’t already have them.

    6. Observer*

      This is the exact advice I was coming to give.

      In fact, I’m looking at implementing a learning platform at my org, and one of the reasons is that I want to have a easy way to point people to these trainings.

    7. Cat*

      OK, hands up who had absolutely no idea that forwarding a calendar invitation email behaves differently to forwarding a normal email in outlook until reading this comment
      *raises hand*

  40. Oh January*

    OP3: I’m a teacher with a chronic illness and physical disabilities and I’m in PJs (flannel pants and a sweatshirt in the winter, cotton shorts and a t-shirt in the summer) as soon as I’m home, so I feel you. PJs doesn’t mean I’m in for the night necessarily though — if I need to go out I’ll at least change into jeans.

    Is there something specific your husband wishes you were doing? Ask him to keep the conversation focused on that, then. It doesn’t matter how you’