my coworker does extreme sports when she’s out sick, asking to skip a performance review, and more

by Alison Green on October 15, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworker does extreme sports whenever she’s out sick

I have a coworker, “Pattie,” who has a remote work accommodation due to a mental health diagnosis. For the past year, she has been chronically late to meetings, missed deadlines, and been difficult to reach. This would already be bad, but to make matters worse, she insists on leading projects (for example, creating and facilitating a presentation for over 50 participants) and on the day of, ends up being a no-show without advance warning!

Pattie has a public social media account where she posts all about the extreme sport she is involved in (for anonymity, let’s say she does BMX). We’ve noticed that during times when she was “sick” or a no-show, she has posted videos of new bicycle tricks, or videos from international BMX competitions (not surprising we can’t reach her when she is apparently hours ahead of our local time). She also appears to have a sponsorship for knee pads, which she posts about as well. Infuriatingly, we are city employees, so she’s using taxpayer dollars to subsidize her budding career as a BMX influencer.

As you can imagine, morale on our team has been abysmal. One of us recently left, I am next (yay), and more are on their way out. I’m leaving, so this question isn’t about my personal sanity, and more about what advice you would give my manager. My manager is a decent person, and was really manipulated by Pattie, so she didn’t understand how big of a problem this was until the resignations started pouring in. Reading between the lines, I am pretty sure that my manager went to HR and HR said that there isn’t enough evidence to take action against Pattie (bureacracy!) What is the right thing for a manager to do in this situation when she’s completely shut down by HR? Is there any way to restore morale on the team, or is it too late?

The law that requires companies to make accommodations for medical conditions doesn’t say “the employee can do anything they want because they have a medical condition.” It says that they need to be offered reasonable accommodations if those will allow the employee to perform the essential functions of her job, and if the accommodations don’t cause undue hardship to the company. I can’t speak to Pattie’s job specifically, but in many, many jobs meeting deadlines, remaining reachable, and not no-showing without warning would be considered essential functions of the job that she’d still need to meet.

Moreover, if she’s definitely lying about being sick, that’s a separate problem; medical accommodations don’t let someone lie to get additional time off. To be thorough, I want to note that it’s possible that Pattie isn’t lying about being sick — for example, any chance she’s posting those videos on her days off but they were made at an earlier time? — but I’m guessing you have enough info to know that’s the not the case, and the competition dates are presumably public.

Ideally your manager would work with HR to clearly define the essential responsibilities of the role and lay those out for Pattie, and to make it clear what they can and can’t accommodate and what the consequences will be if XYZ doesn’t change. But if you have incompetent HR that doesn’t understand the law or their jobs, as well as higher leadership that allows HR to obstruct managers, they may be nothing your boss can do other than to leave herself.

2. Can I ask to skip a performance review?

I’ve been pretty miserable at my job for the past few months, and while I know I need to secure a new position, I don’t have one yet. I am considering just quitting at this point, because the stress is making it really hard to job hunt while also doing my job (this is extremely dramatic given that it’s not even a bad job, I’m just a really really bad fit for it).

I have a performance review coming up (which sure is not going to be positive!), and I just can’t do it. I am going to cry the whole time. Is there any way I can gracefully request we NOT go through this process which will be painful for me and a waste of time for them?

Probably not, I’m sorry! If you had resigned and had an end date set, almost definitely — few managers will think there’s any point in going through the performance review process at that point, unless your job has a truly frightening level of bureaucracy that would require it anyway. But otherwise, you can’t really say, essentially, “I don’t want to talk about how things are going or where I need to improve” (which is the point of the process).

3. Bringing in puzzles to a new job

A few months ago, one of my coworkers started bringing jigsaw puzzles into our break room and it’s been a fun little lunch activity! I generally go out to eat and come back to the office with about 30 minutes of lunch time left, and before then I spent it in my cubicle because I felt a little awkward sitting in the break room when I wasn’t eating anything.

Now, I’ll spend it working on the puzzle, and if another coworker comes in, we generally both work on it together and chat a little. It’s nothing major, but I feel like it helps to give us a topic to talk about, and it’s nice to use your brain for something else for a little bit. It seems like everyone else either enjoys it or doesn’t mind it.

It got me thinking about how this probably won’t be the culture at the next job I work at … but it’s not like it’s a super entrenched part of ours, you know? It only happened because one coworker started bringing them in, and he’s neither a manager or someone who’s worked here for a particularly long time. So my question is, when is it okay to be that coworker?

I think any time as long as you’re not brand new. I wouldn’t do it in your first month while you’re still learning the culture and people don’t know much about you yet — that risks missing some cultural cues that might have changed your plans if you’d caught them, and also risks looking a little too “I have just arrived but this is now my home and I will shortly be moving in a chaise and 20 spider plants” … but after you’ve been there a few months, go for it.

4. Can I ask my assistant to check in with me before she leaves?

I have what I think is a simple question about respectfully managing my assistant, Elsa. Elsa is a hard working, organized, and generally delightful person. The year I’ve worked with her has been a dream. She works an early schedule and leaves/signs off (hybrid office) at 4:30. I tend to start later and also work late because I’m a disorganized lawyer. In general, this works well — I send her a bunch of stuff in the evening and by the time I get in, she’s got it all done. However, there are times when I need something same-day, and often I don’t clock that 4:30 mark until she has left. Is it reasonable to ask her to check in with me around 4 everyday, just in case there’s a thing I’ve forgotten to ask for, or is this a me problem that I should learn to figure out on my end?

It’s reasonable to ask your assistant to check in with you every day at a certain time; that’s a thing that often gets asked of assistants. I think you’re hesitant to ask because your self-image is that you’re disorganized and you feel like you should overcome that without transferring any of the burden to her, but any good assistant would want to know that this would be helpful to you. It would be trickier if she weren’t your assistant — although even then you could ask it in a lot of cases as long as she reported to you — but in this case it’s an easy yes.

Is 4:00 early enough though? I might bump that to 3 or 3:30 to ensure she has time to complete whatever you might ask for without displacing other things she was planning for that time.

5. How long should you keep paperwork from an old job?

I’m in the background check/employment verification stage of a new job. They need a record for jobs in the last 10 years. One of my jobs from that period was for a company that has since been acquired by a huge company with headquarters out of my home country and I can’t get in touch with anyone there. Luckily, I still have my offer letter from that role, and that was an accepted form of verification. But I’m a digital packrat. For those people who like to delete things, how long should you keep official paperwork from old jobs like paystubs, offer letters, etc?

Ten years is the most typical look-back period for employment verification. That doesn’t mean that you need every paystub from that period, but you should have something verifying your employment for each job, which could be an offer letter, one paystub per year, a year-end payroll summary if you got them, or so forth. You don’t have to do this, but it can make your life a lot easier if you do.

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{ 327 comments }

{ 327 comments… read them below }

  1. Bruce*

    LW2: if you are having that bad a time, it would be bad management by your manager to skip the review. They should be giving you the feedback, if they don’t they are dropping the ball. I hope they can do it gently and maybe help you find a way to make things better for both of you, at least in the interim.

    LW3: My company also has puzzles out in the break room, while I agree with Alison that you should scope out the culture first you may find it a fun option at the new place too!

    1. JSPA*

      I wonder if the LW can, however, indicate ahead of time that they feel like a bad fit, and wonder if the performance review can involve

      1. addressing which aspects and tasks are a good enough fit to be mutually beneficial.

      2. addressing which skills have shown improvement, as well as underlining which ones are more stubbornly unomproved. Why? It’s actually very useful to know how this appears to people outside your own brain, when you’re job searching– And the things that you find miserable may not, in fact , align with the things that they find problematic.

      3. Addressing whether the most problematic things are really core parts of the role, or not, and whether there’s room to divest the role of a couple of the worst tasks for you (especially if they’re no-big-deal level for others?)

      4. If core functions of the role are the problem, gaming out an eventual graceful transition out, and what sort of recommendation, they feel they could give for a role that’s a better fit. (Normally I’d say you don’t want to tip your hand without strong prospects, but if you’re this close to quitting with nothing else lined up, then there’s not a lot to lose.)

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I agree with this. Why not use the review meeting to discuss what you need/want from the role? Ok, maybe the entire role is a bad fit for you and there isn’t anything that the role requires that is something you’d rather focus on, but maybe there are one or two tasks in the role that you are pretty good at – you could ask your manager if you can focus more on those and find someone else to do the stuff you’re not so great at.

        This won’t work, of course, if your job is “scheduling meetings for your boss” and all you want to do is file her paperwork, but you never know!

    2. allathian*

      My office also has puzzles in the break room. I enjoy doing them during our coffee breaks. When one’s finished, someone usually posts a pic in our water cooler Teams channel.

    3. mango chiffon*

      My office has puzzles as well! It’s a nice break from looking at a computer screen all day.

    4. T.N.H*

      Yea, but if LW2 is truly leaving over this they can reframe the conversation. As in: “I’ve realized this is a bad fit and I think we should talk about transitioning me out of the role.” That would completely change the tone of the review.

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, but it would probably force LW out of the role quicker than they are looking to go. LW might want to stay in their current job until they actually have a new job lined off. If they say “we should talk about transitioning me out of the role,” any employer will hear that as two-weeks notice.

        1. Potsie*

          I agree. Don’t bring that up until you are actually ready to quit because even a good boss probably can’t justify keeping someone around who admits they are not doing a good job and have no desire to improve.

          1. T.N.H*

            Definitely. They need to be ready to go at this point, but it sounds like they might leave without another job. If they work with their boss, they could figure out a way to make this work like severance, unemployment, vacation payout etc.

    5. Smithy*

      LW2 – in addition to the manager dropping the ball, I also think that for the OP it can be helpful to demystify performance evaluations as something awful or miserable.

      I have a lot of peers who I KNOW are doing well or at the very least solidly above average – and they still get anxious, nervous and unhappy in the lead up to a performance review. There was one job I had for 3.5 years where I had like 4-5 supervisors by the time I left – so the few sort-of reviews were never conducted by the same person who I set goals with. The process was always wildly chaotic and a bit miserable – and ultimately made it so that by the time I was in a more traditional performance review process it still came with a lot of anxiety.

      The OP may do this and still cry, but honestly, I think it may STILL be insightful for how to approach this in another setting so that it goes better. It may also not be as bad as they think it will be, and while they might get teary eyed or cry in the bathroom later – they won’t actually be crying the whole time through. Which honestly, when things aren’t going well, is a win.

      If the OP is working with a mental health professional, and they agree the OP is not in a place where they can handle this – then that’s something else. But as utterly miserable as it is – performance review anxiety is also very common. And it’s also usually something that does not happen super frequently, so it can be hard to actively get better at something that happens rarely.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I know I’m doing alright at my job and I know my performance review is not going to be trash, but I still get anxious about it. It’s normal.

        However, I suggest that OP have a one on one with their boss, potentially before review time. They think they are a poor fit – is that true or just being hard on themselves? Is it that the boss isn’t doing a good job providing ongoing feedback? Is it that they are struggling with a skill? Can that skill be attained? Is there another role that’s better or can some of the tasks be traded with a coworker?

        Sometimes what is needed is not avoidance but information and communication. It can be HARD when your anxiety is through the roof but try to have the tougher conversations so that over time it’s not so hard. OP may be surprised – last time I called a one on one with my boss it wasn’t as bad as expected. Even a sub-par review might not be “straight to a PIP with you.”

        I get the impression that OP is early in their career so I’d like to gently remind them that everyone has struggle days or jobs that are better/worse. Breathe. Talk to your manager. Make a plan and don’t just quit on impulse. Keep the long view. You’ll get through this.

        1. Bruce*

          I think this is a good idea, tell the manager they feel they are struggling rather than waiting for the actual review.

        2. Smithy*

          Completely agree.

          I do think that a big reason why these become so nerve wracking is because it feels like the agenda is being set entirely by forces above you. Putting yourself in a meeting where you discuss and agenda that you set can really help.

          But overall, I do think that allowing this to spiral is just always really difficult.

      2. Smurfette*

        I get good reviews 90% of the time and I *still* dread performance reviews. I’m always convinced I’ve screwed up somehow and just haven’t pucked up on it. I think it’s exacerbated by the fact that I work on a lot of projects with different teams at different clients.

  2. Card player*

    My coworkers at a previous job all spent their lunch hour playing a card game. As a newcomer, it was a great way to bond and get to know them and I definitely appreciated the brain break it provided.

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      A La Mort Subite cafe in Brussels got its name from the dice game the employees from the national bank around the corner used to play during their lunch breaks.

      1. Roeslein*

        Blast from the past! When I was 18 I did an internship at the national bank and they took me to the Mort Subite on my last day.

    2. amoeba*

      We did that during my PhD, it was amazing! (Although of course, this being uni, we spent rather more time with it than I’d recommend for a regular job. But hey, we all also stayed super late, so…)

    3. Madame Arcati*

      You do have to be careful though. If you aren’t into that or any card game you can feel totally excluded.
      I once went to an after work drinks for someone leaving and a group sat down to play Magic The Gathering, leaving the rest of us who couldn’t or didn’t care to play, to basically have a separate event and it felt like, yeah we don’t want to socialise with any of you. I felt like, if you actually wanted to go and have a games night at someone’s flat then do that, nobody forced you to come to the social,

    4. Madame Arcati*

      You have to be careful though – a puzzle doesn’t require rules or knowledge and anyone can take part for two mins or twenty. But a card game could be very excluding – limited number, must commit to certain game time. Could be rather cliquey.
      I once went to a work social where a group sat down to play Magic the Gathering and the rest of us had a social of our own. I didn’t care much but it felt like, yeah we don’t want to talk to you. The social was in no way forced; if they wanted to go and have a games night On their own they could have

      1. sheworkshardforthemoney*

        Ha! Years ago in another office a card game that took over a conference room every lunch hour. No one was allowed to book it past 12pm or before 1pm. Until the director needed it. They arrived and the card game was still in progress and the card players refused to vacate for the director until they finished. After that the conference room was off-limits for anything except work related meetings. Bridge players take their game seriously.

        1. PhyllisB*

          For sure!!When I was in college I took a study trip to NYC with a group, and there were several Bridge players. Everywhere we went if there was a pause they broke out the cards.
          I’ll never forget going to the United Nations building and being in awe at all the countries I saw represented, and on a bench was our Bridge players totally absorbed in their cards. The rest of us wondered why they even bothered to come.

        2. MotherofaPickle*

          I would definitely have been one of these people. I’m pretty bad at Bridge, but I will absolutely play any chance I get.

      2. Bear Expert*

        I’ve seen great success for “game night” kinds of gatherings, bring/donate/have on hand various games, who ever shows up gets to play. But its not drop in/drop out as easily as having a puzzle or legos available. Game night works if its a space that can be dedicated to it starting a bit before the end of the day (so people who need to leave on time can play a round) and happens regularly.

        Ambient activities really need to be more flexible, puzzles are great for the reasons you pointed out. No real skill or knowledge needed, no time barriers, no minimum number of people, and a flexible maximum.

        1. Fanny Price*

          We had a Boggle game out at a former work place. It’s fast, it’s easy to drop in and out (even mid-game, and each game is short), and usually everyone gets at least a couple of words that no one else does, so it leaves you feeling good even when you lose.

      3. Quinalla*

        I mean, yeah if we are talking MtG or Bridge, for sure. There are plenty of card games that take minutes to teach and also a lot that have flexibility on player count. Those are the kinds of card games I would recommend. A puzzle is very flexible on time commitment, but also has a simultaneous player limit, so sometimes a card game that can include any number of players is a better bet. Manipulation, Euchre, House Wrecker – just off the top of my head are some good ones. We had a near constant game of Euchre going in the band lounge at my university. People would come and go, sometime just playing a single round between classes. If there were enough people, 2 games would be going or folks would take turns.

        1. Annika Hansen*

          Pre-pandemic, my workplace had a regular Euchre game(s) at lunch. Same as you, the number of games depending on the number of people attending. There were a couple of retired employees would even show up occasionally.

        2. Lab Boss*

          Euchre? Fellow Midwesterner spotted… but if we’re worried about inadvertently excluding people, Euchre is perhaps the most opaque game imaginable. We always joke that the rules of Euchre are “Follow suit- no, that Jack is different- OK, everyone’s just tossing in their cards.” :D

          1. Sparkles McFadden*

            I “learned” how to play Euchre from my Canadian coworker who set up regular games during breaks on the nightshift. He told me he was impressed by how quickly I picked it up. To this day, I have no idea how to actually play Euchre.

            1. Lab Boss*

              All you have to do is drink a bunch of cheap beer while you play and you’ll know how! Or at least you’ll be convinced you do, and what’s the difference, really?

          2. Butt in Seat*

            My grandmother, and then a college boyfriend, attempted to teach me to play Euchre. It’s permanently turned me off of all at-all-similar games. Hearts included.

        3. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          FLUX is really good this way. Super-basic rules, and every adjustment to the rules is a result of cards that you or someone else played during their turn. And there’s almost no strategy, just actions.

        1. Starbuck*

          Yes, people having fun playing cards games at lunch does not need to be problematized until/unless someone actually has an issue. If you want to play cards at lunch with coworkers (SO much easier to schedule than outside of work, that is also a huge part of the appeal) just go for it.

    5. Odonata*

      LW3, I’ve brought a jigsaw into my high school classroom and it’s been a game changer. This year students in the province aren’t allowed to have their cell phones out at ALL during class time; and now the time they would’ve spent on online games & social media they’re spending talking to each other instead – often over the puzzle! To the point where they were upset by the 2-day delay between them finishing one puzzle and when I provided a new one

  3. ThatOtherClare*

    #1: So I’ll start out with ‘I think what I’m about to say is very unlikely’, however, one possible explanation for Pattie’s behaviour and the company’s inaction could be bipolar disorder. She might be out doing extreme sports during manic episodes and the company might be aware of this.

    Again, I think this is extremely unlikely. But in general, if your HR has a good track record and they’re acting unusually over this, well, if I – an untrained non-medical person – can think of a plausible medical reason for this to happen then there are likely many.

    It all boils down to your opinion of the competence of the people who would be ‘in the know’. If they’re usually strict and you’re blindsided by their sudden lenience, there could be a reason for that. But if those people often pretty slack, don’t bother looking for medical zebras when it’s probably just a horse.

    Do remember to double check for strange reasons when something seems strange. But after that, follow your gut. We commenters in the peanut gallery don’t have enough information to do anything other than speculate wildly, but whichever way you lean is probably right, letter writer 1.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Even if it is manic episodes, it doesn’t really change the advice – because “allow her to go to international BMX events and build her career as a BMX influencer while being paid on sick leave” isn’t a suitable accommodation for manic episodes, or for any other condition. When off sick your “job” that you are being paid for during those days is “do what’s needed to get better” which could include being in bed with flu, walks in nature for mental health, etc. There’s no way “moonlighting with your side hustle” is a suitable way of being off sick.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, I agree. It’s one thing to do it during your vacations. Sure, many illnesses and disorders that make you temporarily unfit to work don’t necessarily require you to stay in bed or at home all day, and I’ve certainly done necessary errands when I’m on sick leave.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Agree with this.

        The anthology TV series Modern Love, S1 Ep3 Take Me As I Am, Whoever I Am, I found to be a really insightful illustration of bipolar. The central character is on, she’s sparkling, she’s hitting it out of the park… right until she swings to the opposite pole.

        One thing that this illustrated is that the timing of the swings is out of her control. She couldn’t arrange manic episodes for BMX competitions and depressive episodes for government job hours. She had lost a good job that she enjoyed because the down cycles made her unable to do it. Torched a lot of relationships because the down cycle had her ignoring contact while she curled up on the floor.

      3. Momma Bear*

        I agreed. I think OP and perhaps their manager might get more traction to document when she’s absent from meetings or fails to produce work. Then they will have the data to back up talking to HR or the manager putting her on a PIP. The activities are problematic in part because she’s not where she’s supposed to be and not doing her job. I’d start there.

    2. Katie Impact*

      I can imagine a couple of different plausible scenarios where she could be capable of posting extreme sport videos but not working, but I’m not sure it matters that much, because it’s not the core of the problem. The sport stuff is bad optics, but it’s bad optics *because* she’s not getting her job done adequately, even with accommodations.

      1. Artemesia*

        A manager that allows her to grab the lead on things like major presentations when she is likely to flake is a manager that needs to be let go and replaced or managed by their own boss.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

          I suspect that is out of risk aversion and the manager fears the “I was booted from projects because of my illness” angle.

          1. HonorBox*

            I think that’s right. Though manager needs to be less risk averse here because their butt may be on the line if their team is failing.

            One thing to boot someone (love your wording by the way) from a project because of illness. Another to stop someone from grabbing the reins when they’ve proven that they can’t ride the horse.

            1. Momma Bear*

              Exactly. Why continue to give someone the ability to mess things up when they’ve proven they shouldn’t even be on a hobby horse.

          2. Eldritch Office Worker*

            Yep – managers and HR who are inexperienced with ADA accommodations often take the path of not rocking the boat for fear it will come off as retaliation.

            This is incorrect, to be clear, but it’s easy to understand how it happens.

      2. MsM*

        Yeah, I wonder if someone pointed out to HR that the media would probably jump on “government employee builds extreme sports career on taxpayer dollars” if someone – say, one of those disgruntled former workers – tipped them off, that would get the ball rolling.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          Ironically, I suspect the boss has been thinking that managing the problem employee might end up in a headline “local government discriminates against employees with mental illness”

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            The fact this is government definitely adds more complications in all directions. The risk averseness always gets magnified 10x under the government microscope.

            But that means it needs to be bumped up the chain if the manager can’t handle it, not that it can be ignored.

      3. Observer*

        The sport stuff is bad optics, but it’s bad optics *because* she’s not getting her job done adequately, even with accommodations.

        Exactly!

    3. Emmy Noether*

      I started this letter thinking “maybe it helps her mental health to go on a bike ride, who am I to judge?”, but Pattie completely lost my sympathy by the end of the letter. She regularly pushes to commit to things and doesn’t follow through? Leaves her colleagues in the lurch? Goes to competitions, which takes planning ahead to be “coincidentally” sick on that day? Yeah, this is really not ok.

      1. amoeba*

        Yup, that’s what I thought at first as well. Not sure how it’s in the US, in my (and Emmy’s) part of Europe, you’re allowed to do anything that doesn’t keep you from getting better while you’re out on sick leave – so if it’s a mental health thing, you could in theory absolutely be OK doing sports, meeting friends, or going out! (I still wouldn’t recommend posting about it on social media though, because of course people aren’t immune to bad impressions, etc. )

        But this is something else, honestly.

        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          I don’t think the US really has rules? (Recall that most localities don’t even mandate sick leave.) What Alison has said about “You’re allowed to do what you need to to get better” SHOULD be true, but the optics can be A Whole Thing.

      2. Caffeine Monkey*

        Yes, if I’m off for mental health reasons (anxiety/depression/stress), I’ll often go and spend time with my horse. Sometimes just chilling out together, sometimes going for a long ride in the countryside, sometimes focusing on nailing that counter-canter. It really helps me reset my mental state.

        However, I’m very aware of optics and therefore never mention these outings at work or on social media.

        1. Kt*

          I think a key difference is that it doesn’t sound like you plan your anxiety/depression/stress to conveniently coincide with certain dates.

          And as folks have said, this situation would not be what it is without the coworker failing to carry out job duties.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Same. If athletic activities help with your mental health, you should absolutely be able to do them on sick days you take for your mental health. That’s not at all the same thing as taking sick days to go to competitions for your second job.

    4. Myrin*

      I’m having a hard time thinking of a condition you can schedule (and I don’t mean a simple “I’ll power through this even though I feel bad and then afterwards I’ll likely be completely wiped out” which some might argue is technically “scheduling” as well), especially in such a way that it coincides with international competition.

    5. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      I see 3 issues in #1:

      1) Patti spends some of her mental health days practicing extreme sports. Purely an optics issue/MYOB, and the diagnosis doesn’t matter.

      2) Patti has been, let’s be charitable and say, unable to fulfill job responsibilities she took upon herself in the first place, either because she’s been very unlucky or because stress exacerbates her condition. I can’t come up with any reasonable accommodation for this except to limit Patti’s role to things that won’t suffer terribly if she misses the big presentation without warning. That may or may not be reasonable depending on Patti’s job description. I wouldn’t think the diagnosis matters.

      3) (Implied/unclear if proven) Patti has at best been suffering mental health crises at the thought of missing a BMX competition for work, and at worst has been lying about health crises instead of scheduling PTO for these events. The former may not be reasonable to accommodate (except by limiting Patti’s role per #2), and the latter might well be a manifestation of a mental health problem, but not one that’s reasonable to accommodate IMO. Not sure the diagnosis matters here either.

      1. Dek*

        I appreciate your Point #1. That part is MYOB. It wouldn’t be any different if she were just staying at home and not posting, but was still dropping the ball on multiple projects she insisted on committing to, making more work for her coworkers.

        That’s the part I think the coworkers/manager should focus on, more than the “what she’s doing.”

        THAT said…if she’s making sponsorship money, she needs to be reporting that to HR. Government employees are supposed to report outside income to make sure everything stays above board. But that’s also not OP’s business.

        1. Sacred Ground*

          Yes, the dropping balls at work is a performance issue that has to be addressed and if it’s being caused by the accommodation, then the accommodation isn’t working.

          IIRC, a reasonable accommodation (that the employer must provide) is one that allows the employee to do the work at the level required of the position. She’s not doing that. Her manager needs to tell her and HR that and meet to work out something else.

          I was right there with the idea of extreme sports as mental health therapy (seriously clears the mind), and accommodating the need to go dirtriding or whatever at unscheduled times could be an actual thing. If it doesn’t interfere with your work and actually allows you to do your work, great.

          But when the need consistently aligns with scheduled tournaments? And she has other PTO she could be using? And she’s making some income from it? And she’s just plain not doing her job at the level required for the position?

          This accommodation isn’t working and it’s past time to figure out something else.

    6. T.N.H*

      This seems pretty close to armchair diagnosing and almost certainly not what’s going on here. The issue is that this is how government works. My husband works for a government agency and has seen two people milk the system to stay employed despite doing no work at all for months. However, in both cases, eventually they were fired. It is possible. It’s just a process.

      1. Observer*

        The issue is that this is how government works.

        Not true.

        Yes, if one focuses *just* on the sports stuff, there is little that can be done just yet.

        But even in government, there *is* a lot that can be done, if HR and the management were competent. But it’s not clear that HR is competent, and it is clear that Manager is not.

        Government or not, you can document specific performance issues, which boss has not done. And you *certainly* don’t have to allow someone with this kind of record to “insist” on taking leadership roles after 2 or 3 documented cases of falling down on the job. In fact, you really don’t have to wait for the3rd or even second failure. So, that’s manager being an idiot.

        It is possible. It’s just a process.

        True. And manager *needs* to start the process.

        Having said all of this, I *do* agree that the exact diagnosis here really doesn’t matter.

      2. Sacred Ground*

        Yep, the issue is this is how large organizations with poor management work, whether government or otherwise.

        The scenario of people getting away with doing no work for months by gaming the system before eventually getting fired isn’t exactly unique to the public sector. Happens at poorly run big companies all the time.

    7. Cheap-Ass Hellmouth*

      Agreed with the commenters below that people with mental health challenges can’t schedule those challenges around extreme sport competitions, and if Pattie were otherwise a reliable employee this conversation would be different. Some people will just scam unless no one stops them.

      I know someone who was out of work on workers comp, and took the opportunity to travel out of state to participate in another kind of physically extreme activity–not bodybuilding or skydiving, but in that neighborhood. She posted videos publicly all over her social media and even bragged to people about how she was taking advantage of workers comp to do it.

      She was shocked–shocked!–when someone turned her in for workers comp fraud and she got fired for it. She truly feels like she was victimized and has a simmering vendetta against the person who reported her.

      1. Momma Bear*

        This makes me wonder if there’s an anonymous tip line LW or their colleagues could call about this person. Or a FSO or something.

    8. MassMatt*

      We are asked not to make medical nor mental health diagnoses of letter writers. It almost inevitably leads to distraction from giving advice.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          No, because it doesn’t matter what Patty has. She’s dropping the ball and the burden is falling on coworkers. She could be doing extreme sports, staying in bed all day, even staying at the doctor’s office. But she’s not doing the bare minimum of planning needed to not make it a burden, and that’s what people are irritated with.

    9. Saturday*

      I don’t think that’s, “a plausible medical reason for this to happen” though.
      That goes way beyond a reasonable medical accommodation.

    10. Observer*

      however, one possible explanation for Pattie’s behaviour and the company’s inaction could be bipolar disorder. She might be out doing extreme sports during manic episodes and the company might be aware of this.

      Why is this relevant? Because the fundamental issue is not why she’s playing extreme sports. But that she’s *not doing the job*.

      Do remember to double check for strange reasons when something seems strange.

      Why? I mean, I get that some time this information is actionable. But the kind of thing you are suggesting simply does not provide any useful information to the LW, even if there is something like medical reason. Keep in mind, it’s not just that she’s out playing sports when she’s supposed to be in meetings. It’s that she keeps on dropping the ball, and that needs to be rectified.

    11. Smurfette*

      Doing an extreme sport while you’re having a manic episode would be contrary to medical advice, I should think

      1. Boof*

        Maybe there is always an extreme sport competition, somewhere, and they go to it their “mental health” dictates it! (scare quotes because it’s utterly uncertain what the possible mental health issue is and that wording can be incredibly broad and include very optional things; and the whole situation sounds way more like plain old shenanigans)
        … but it doesn’t matter, they’re not doing their job well at all and that is the main point. I’m not sure if likely lying about why matters that much even if insult to injury. Hopefully management focuses on the part where not doing your job is not reasonable accommodation and works on whatever is needed to fire them or whatever process is required at that org.

  4. Adam*

    I think people generally overestimate the amount of permission you need to do things at most companies. I gave the first-ever tech talk at my current company, and I did it by just scheduling a meeting and inviting all the technical staff. Everyone was thrilled.

    Some companies are dysfunctional and have people who will freak out if you change anything, so it’s definitely good to know the lay of the land first, but mostly if you’re going to make a minor improvement people will be happy you did it.

    1. Bumblebee*

      So much this! We have team members at my university who bemoan that they are “not allowed to go out for coffee together” and it turns out that one time one person got fussed at for doing WAY too much coffee out and they’ve built that into a “not allowed situation.” I said, “Why don’t you just go get coffee?” and they looked at me like I had two heads.

  5. Nodramalama*

    LW1 It is true that many influencers do not post in real time, so a charitable read would be that pattie is banking posts and taking advantage of being sick to post some stuff. But even then, this is why perception is important even if you’re not doing anything “wrong” because at the very least pattie looks bad doing this

    1. Mangled Metaphor*

      And why the dates of competitions etc. should be a consideration. If the competition happened during a period of sick leave, even if the pictures were posted during a subsequent period where Pattie is confined to her bed or can’t go further than 3 feet from a toilet, that’s abusing the process.
      Plus, influencers have to post quite close to the timing of a big event while it’s still relevant. In the goldfish memory of the Internet and social media, if it was last week, it’s too late.

      Posting pictures of a past event is within the spirit of the accommodation (albeit one with terrible optics), but if it’s evidence of activities (especially paid) it’s wildly inappropriate.

      Personally I would be considering the volume of leave periods, coupled with her in work behaviour. Do her mental health days coincide with big events in the extreme sports world?

      1. Earlk*

        If you take time off for mental health you don’t need to be confined to bed. Yes, Pattie may be abusing the process but that doesn’t mean people with MH accommodations are doing something wrong by being able to leave the house.

        1. mskyle*

          Right? Like, if someone with a physical job couldn’t work because they broke their leg and they were using their leave to knit elaborate sweaters or write a novel or something, that would be OK, right?

          It does sound like Pattie’s abusing the situation (and bad at her job, even with accommodations) but I don’t think that getting outdoors and exercising when you’re on mental health leave is a particularly suspicious activity.

          1. Kevin Sours*

            I think it would still feel a little off if you were posting videos of yourself knitting for your bespoke sweater business.

            1. Joron Twiner*

              It would feel weird if, say, a construction worker with a broken leg used their time off to post knitting videos for their side business? Why? It’s not like they can work their primary job. Is it different if it’s a hobby vs. a side business?

        2. HonorBox*

          Yes. I stated below that manager and HR probably need to leave out any reference to the BMX stuff when they talk to Pattie. The issue isn’t necessarily how she’s using that time away from the office. The issue is that the accommodations that she’s been given are actually unreasonable. If her mental health is benefitted by hot air ballooning, that’s totally cool. But if she’s completely unreliable and not doing core aspects of her job, whatever activity she’s participating in doesn’t matter.

        3. Sarah With an H*

          True, but going out for a random ride isn’t the same as going to a competition that happens at a specific day and time and required prior registration. If that’s what she’s doing it means she planned for it

        4. Mangled Metaphor*

          I never said she did need to be confined to bed.
          In my experience, the MH advice is to get *out* of bed. Preferably out of the house too. But to then participate in what is essentially a second job or side hussle is abusing the process and making it worse for the perception of MH accommodations for others.

          1. Mangled Metaphor*

            Actually I realisewhat I put was missing a phrase.
            I meant confined to bed for a physical reason – hence the follow up about the toilet. i should have specified that bed and MH are not related.

    2. Delta Delta*

      This. I run a social media influencer account and am sitting on a mountain of content waiting to be posted. One part of running a successful account like this is understanding timing and not over saturating the audience with your particular content (unless that’s what the audience responds to, of course).

      It’s also not clear from OP’s letter if it is apparent that Pattie is actually AT these competitions/events when she can’t be reached, or if she’s just posting during the events. Good, related content can be really successfully posted even if she isn’t there, and is likely to hit the relevant audience if posted during a peak time. She just needs to understand it doesn’t look great that she’s doing it when she’s off from her other job.

      1. MsSolo (UK)*

        My cousin-in-law is an influencer, and you’d swear from her account she spends 9 months a year in exciting tropical destinations, but in reality she’s taking two or three short vacations a year (spending most of them highly jetlagged) and relying on the collective goldfish memory of the internet not to notice that she clearly took the photos she’s posting in September at the same time as the ones she posted in May.

        1. Emmy Noether*

          It’s funny, because my reaction to those photos of yet another trip is not admiration, it’s “WHAT ABOUT YOUR CARBON FOOTPRINT?!” And then I notice it looks suspiciously like the same event from a different angle and I’m like Whew! It’s ok!

      2. doreen*

        I think some of that depends on what exactly is being posted. I can post about the vacation I took in May in November and it won’t really matter. But if the X games are June 29-30 2024 and I’m posting videos of myself that are obviously at the X games s on July 1 , it’s really unlikely I’m posting videos from the 2023 competition.

        1. Delta Delta*

          Maybe. A fun influencer trick I’ve learned is to post relevant content that isn’t necessarily what’s happening right now. Let’s keep using the X Games as an example. Maybe I didn’t go in 2024 but I did in 2023. I might have a cool photo I took of BMX Star last year. Maybe BMX Star wins a medal in 2024. I post the cool photo I took last year, saying something like, “awesome win for Star! Here she is last year looking forward to her amazing future!” or something like that (hard to do without context). This will get lots of clicks because it’s relevant. Some commenters will be confused but others will correct them.

          Another thing some influencers do is to take a still photo or screenshot of the live event as it happens and post that. So maybe Pattie is at home on her couch but watching the X Games on her phone. She sees BMX Star cross the line first and do an awesome fist pump. She screenshots and posts the screenshot. If you glance, it looks like she’s there. If you really look at it, you can see “NBC” in the corner (or whatever network).

          I’m not disagreeing with you – I’m just pointing out there are lots of ways to do this that might not be exactly how they seem. I know, because I do it.

          1. Coverage Associate*

            My social media fed me content from the 1980s right after the Olympics. Of course, even the still images were of much lower quality than contemporary photos, so I could tell immediately, but, yeah, both influencers and the algorithms capitalize on trends, no matter the date of the content originally.

            Also, most people , but not everyone, understand that unless you have special settings, your social media feed isn’t chronological, so the date and time of posting rather than viewing should be checked.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      This was my first though: She’s not necessarily doing these things on the days she’s “sick”.

      However, that doesn’t address the performance issues.

    4. toolegittoresign*

      I used to post to social media on sick days and after someone said something to my boss, he nicely sat me down to talk to be about how, while he knows I really was sick, posting to social where coworkers can see it while I’m sick is a bad look. Perception matters in the professional world, and you don’t want to create the appearance of playing hooky under any circumstances. I am forever grateful for the guidance. He made it clear I wasn’t in trouble at all and free to post what I wanted to my social media but the reality check that it was coloring my coworker’s perception of me was much-needed. I stopped doing that and even made a new rule for myself that I don’t follow coworkers on social and keep my accounts private unless a coworker becomes a good friend outside of work.

      TLDR: it would be a kindness for the manager to tell Pattie how this looks and let her know that while she’s not in trouble, that she should know people are talking.

  6. Anon Today*

    Man, LW#1 is tough to read right now. I’m also a City employee who’s been working remotely and is struggling with my mental health. They’ve just announced they’re considering ending remote work and I’m not sure what I’m going to do if they go ahead with it since I can’t drive very far right now. I’ve been thinking about seeing if I can get a medical accommodation to keep working from home, it would really suck if my employer thinks I’m trying to pull a Pattie. I’m not sure if they have to accommodate me or not, I’ve been working remotely since I was hired with glowing performance reviews so I think it would be a reasonable accommodation. I can technically drive, it just sucks because I have to fight off a panic attack the whole time. I’m trying to take meds for it but haven’t found the right balance yet. Ugh, I don’t even know where this comment is going anymore. It just sucks hearing about someone abusing an accommodation that I’m probably about to have to fight tooth and nail to get.

    1. Emmy Noether*

      First of all, I’m sorry you’re in this situation. It’s understandable that it stresses you out.

      Of course I can’t know if the people deciding on accomodations at your job are reasonable people, but if they are, they should be able to see that you’re WFH right now, and you’re not abusing it. There’s no reason to think you will begin to pull a Pattie if you haven’t before!

    2. kicking-k*

      Yeah. It’s tough to know how you are perceived. I hope you would not be seen as a “Pattie” but it’s difficult to know where other people will draw the line. Your accommodations sound reasonable.

      My husband is on long-term sick leave from his job. He has a smorgasbord of invisible conditions (the worst of which is chronic fatigue syndrome) which flare up intermittently and make him completely unreliable, which is why his work put him on sickness absence. He see-saws between good days, when he’s able to do a lot, and needing to be in bed for several days. He’s slim and looks quite fit and if you met him on a good day you’d say there’s nothing wrong with him. He often feels people will think he’s a fraud.

      Is he signing up for regular competitions in a very physical sport? No. But if he wanted to, say, run a 5K and his doctor gave him the go-ahead, I *would* probably support that – knowing that there’s a pretty good chance he would not compete on the day, and that if he did he might need several days recovery… And I’m thinking that a lot of people would see that as the same as what Pattie is doing.

    3. PlanesGlider*

      I think you are over-identifying with this situation. They don’t sound anything alike. Many people have legitimate accommodations that are not an issue. This one person’s behaviour in no way reflects what anyone will think of you.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I think this is naive, unfortunately. People loooooove to believe they can suss out the Real Deserving Disabled People With Legitimate Accommodations vs. the Illegitimate Fakers Who Make It Harder For Everyone Else, and that this never harms Real Deserving Disabled People. It’s never true.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      It just sucks hearing about someone abusing an accommodation.
      It’s definitely a recurring theme. (Not only for formal accommodations, but for people sharing their struggles to ask for some grace.) One that fits very badly with “Do all managing by mass general announcement, rather than specifically addressing the one problem person’s specific behavior.”

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        It’s a recurring theme, and by being a recurring theme it may cause those not thinking critically think it’s common – when in reality people don’t have to write into r/ or advice columns or other internet corners to talk about the thousands of people using their accommodations correctly, so the dozens who may be pulling something off get inequitable air time.

        It’s infuriating for us who need accommodations, because as letters like this show managers are just barely managing to handle these situations in the first place. I don’t have an immediate solution besides keep yelling about it and normalizing the correct way to handle requests.

    5. Chickadee*

      File for the accommodation now, in case the paperwork takes a while. You’ve been at the job for a while & have good reviews so if your manager and HR are even mildly competent, they’ll grant the accommodation. (I have several accommodations in place, including working hybrid, and it’s been a net boost to my productivity.)

      Good luck finding the right meds, I know that can be a struggle!

    6. HonorBox*

      I’m sorry you’re going through the situation you’re in. But I also want to offer you a bit of a counterbalance. You’ve had glowing performance reviews. You aren’t pulling a Pattie, because it sounds like you’re not missing deadlines and leaving your coworkers in the lurch. Talk to your doctor and see if your manager can work with you based on what your doctor recommends. If everything you’ve been doing has been great so far and you’ve been remote the entire time, I think you have solid evidence to show that nothing will change. Your coworkers will still be able to contact you. You’ll still be meeting your metrics. You’re not giving them any reason to think you’ll abuse the system if they accommodate you and you’re still working from home.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Totally agree! What we read here is always among the worst-case scenarios, and Anon Today all the evidence indicates you aren’t like Pattie

    7. Dek*

      Remember, the actual issue with Pattie is that the work is not getting done.

      If you consistently get your work done while WFH on an accommodation, there’s no reason HR should think you’re pulling a Pattie.

      Also, I’ve never tried to get a WFH accommodation, but I did have FMLA to deal with some anxiety issues recently, and that was a more or less painless process.

    8. OP Letter Writer #1*

      Hi Anon – this is one of the reasons why Pattie’s behavior is so frustrating. I have WONDERFUL colleagues that do their work remotely, and they’re worried that everyone will assume they’re “pulling a Pattie”.

      I will say that at least in the city office where I work, it seems highly unlikely that Pattie’s behavior will affect anyone else’s remote accommodation one way or another. Good luck with your situation! If you have glowing performance reviews I’m hopeful they will give you the accommodation you need.

    9. spcepickle*

      I am sorry you are having a tough time right now.
      I manage a bunch of people who WFH and I am fighting for them all to keep doing it and I plan to win the fight (I work for state government). So know there are managers out there who see your value and the value of WFH.
      Remember that reasonable accommodations are there to level the playing field so you can keep doing your essential job functions. LW#1 is not really about WFH – it is about someone not doing their job.
      I hope you can get meds worked out.

    10. Sacred Ground*

      Having to fight a panic attack while driving is certainly a legit reason for an accommodation (continued work from home) that allows you to continue working at the level you are without having to fight panic attacks twice daily. Given your performance reviews, it can hardly be considered an undue hardship for them to have you work remotely.

      While you may technically be able to drive, if you are fighting panic attacks behind the wheel, you really aren’t ready to safely drive a daily commute. If you can’t safely drive for whatever reason, then you can’t commute by car, full stop. You might need your mental health provider (like whoever prescribed your medication) to write a letter attesting to this.

  7. TheSüperflüoüsUmlaüt*

    LW4 – what about setting a daily calendar item which pops up around 3.oo pm for you and Elsa to have a 5-min “touch base” about how the day’s tasks are going, prioritising what’s still to be done, and looking ahead to what tomorrow might bring?

    It is *very* reasonable to want an assistant to check in before they leave for the day. I wouldn’t dream of stopping work without giving my boss a heads-up (unless I know he’s already wandered off for the day himself), because I know he loses track of time when he gets deeply involved in a case. And if I have to leave early that day or have a hard out which means I couldn’t stay behind in an emergency, I’d flag that much earlier in the day.

    1. DeskApple*

      so much this. I was thinking that if her schedule is so different from his there is a reason for it and if I were her I’d be pissed to get an assignment at 4 that requires an hour or more to do, adding potentially many more hours to my previously organized week. If he needs that time then he needs to be clear about needing her to match her schedule to his.

      1. Lizzie*

        Yup. I worked for an attorney at one time. I came in at 8:30, and rotated with the other legal admins to come in at 8 one week a month. SHE did not roll in until 10 or later. She would also hide in her office most of the day and “come to life” right before I needed to leave. I can’t tell you how many times I had to stay due to this. I finally put my foot down and started nicely letting her know when I wasn’t able to stay late to accommodate her.

        I think its fine to ask your assistant to check in before she’s done for the day, but I would do it earlier, as others said, to ensre she can finish what you need, and not get stuck working later than she should.

        1. MassMatt*

          If she works 10-6 (or whenever) why is her support on an earlier schedule?

          Clearly this was not a big law firm, as 60 hours a week seems the absolute minimum there.

          1. Rayray*

            I once did an assistant job where my boss intentionally set up our schedule that way. I came in at 9 and she came in at 10. I believe we did it that way to have more hours where someone was there in case the big boss needed something or someone dropped by.

            And maybe it wasn’t a big law firm…so what? Plenty of small law firms exist too.

        2. NotYourMom*

          I once had a boss who insisted staff work 8:30-4:30.

          He came in the office at 12, dropped off his stuff and left for a 2 hour lunch, came back and went to the downstairs gym … would maybe start working at 3:30 and then around 4:15 had time consuming items he wanted completed.

          To call that aggravating would be an understatement.

      2. Salty Caramel*

        +100

        I’d be pissed too. The message I’d get is, “I don’t respect your time. Stay late because I need this right now.” The last 20-30 minutes of my day are typically spent prepping for the following day.

        I think this is on the manager to keep track of time. By the time you get to management, you’re supposed to be better at organizing your work.

        1. TQB*

          Yeah, i hear you on the skills you’re supposed to have in management. It’s weird because of what we do, I didn’t work my way up to being a manager. Attorneys are notoriously disorganized because 1) unforeseen emergencies are kind of the name of the game; and 2) no one teaches you to be a manager in law school.

      3. Anon For This*

        Paralegal reporting in: Please, for the love of god, attorneys, do NOT drop tasks at 4 pm that need to be done by 4:30. 3:00 is probably not early enough unless it is a very simple, no-thought, rote task or an actual emergency.

        I have gone around and around with the ADHD attorney about this and he continues his last-minute brinksmanship regardless of multiple reminders from the boss lady.

        The boss needs to just get it in her (his?) head that tasks you assign after noon are not going to be done same day unless, again, it’s an actual emergency. As ever, a failure to plan on boss’s part should not turn into a hair-on-fire emergency for the assistant.

        1. Msanononny*

          I’ve worked in various support staff roles in laws firms for almost 30 years. In all that time, I’ve met one – literally one! – attorney who didn’t procrastinate with everything. “It’s an emergency! These discovery responses are due today and I have stated them! You’ll have to stay late!” Yeah, if they’re due today you got them 23 days ago and I could’ve had the the response template done the day we got them if you’d have given them to me then. Plus you knew the deadline the day we got them. Not to mention you’ve had more than enough time to request an extension from the opposing attorney. The number of times I’ve bitten my tongue so I wouldn’t say “I’m not your mom! Act like a grown up!” (Still working at a law firm but in the document production department, not as a legal assistant or secretary. Still lots of procrastination from the attorneys but it’s different in this position and so much better.)

    3. Agent Diane*

      I think this is a great solution, as it will become a routine for both of you.

      The main thing is you will need to commit to thinking about any urgent asks you have ahead of that check-in time, otherwise it won’t work. The same applies if Elsa alone has a diary reminder to check in with you an hour before she leaves: if she does, but you’ve not thought about what you need from her in that last hour, it’s a waste of her time.

      Could you have a scratchpad (physical or in something like OneNote) where you jot asks down as they occur to you? Then you can prioritise that list for the call (“I’ve five things but the one thing I need before you go is…”).

    4. Brain the Brian*

      Yes, very reasonable. A lot of small teams with less clear hierarchies have short daily morning meetings to make sure things keep moving. In this case, your daily meeting would be better in the afternoon and doesn’t need to include anyone else — but it would still be super helpful.

    5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Yes, I was puzzled by why Alison didn’t suggest this! I think she was in the mindset of “assistant pops her head in to say ‘I’m headed out for the day, see you tomorrow'” rather than “make sure all needed tasks are communicated to assistant before her EOD”.

    6. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      When I was a paralegal/secretary, before I went home every day I just stuck my head in the boss’ office and asked if there was anything else. Asking to check in is just making sure it happens even if remote.

    7. mango chiffon*

      I’m a program coordinator and I don’t /directly/ support the managers of the teams I support, but there’s nothing more frustrating than when I’m heading out for the day (I also start early/leave early) and I’m all packed up and someone verbally tells me something they need from me. Now I don’t have my tools out to write it down so I have to try and quickly get my personal phone out and make a note of it so I can get to that the next day. If it’s a scheduled meeting, it’s easier to take down notes to remember.

    8. TQB*

      HI – I’m LW #4. First off, I guess not at all surprising that you’ve all correctly identified that I’m an attorney ;). Nice work and thank you all for your thoughts!!

      To clarify, I would never in a million years ask Elsa to stay late. My firm is terrible about paying OT and the person who manages our assistants (centralized, I get to give reviews but do not having hiring or firing authority, it’s weird I know) does not allow attorneys to let assistants “make up” extra time by coming in late the next day or leaving early (she even FIRED an assistant for doing this, saying they were “stealing” time).

      No, what happens is that at 4:40, I poke my head up (GUILTY!) and realize she’s gone. At that point, if it’s urgent I do the thing myself. If it’s not urgent, it’s no big deal because like I said, she comes in early and generally has the thing for me when I come in (which is not 10, but is late because I often only see my kids awake in the morning) This is only an issue because the task is most likely non-billable; it’s not that it’s beneath me or anything, it’s just taking me away from doing the stuff that gets us paid.

      I know I could calendar this and put it on myself, my question was really whether or not it’s rude to ask Elsa to be the one who builds this check in in to her afternoon. I think I will ask her to do this, but leave it up to her as to when she does it such that it’s actually meaningful and does not disrupt her end of day process.

      Again, thank you all for your responses. Elsa is a godsend and I want to respect her and her time, and also use her as efficiently as possible.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        “First off, I guess not at all surprising that you’ve all correctly identified that I’m an attorney ;)”

        People correctly identified you as a lawyer because you directly told us in the letter.

        “I tend to start later and also work late because I’m a disorganized lawyer.”

        But one thing to point out is if your assistant is assigned to more lawyers than you, even a check in at 3 or 3:30 does not mean they will be able to work on your task.

        I support multiple 5+ attorneys and often the last hour or two of the day are already spoken for with other projects that are equally if not more urgent. Sometimes someone comes in with a task that bumps the line, and others I have to check with attorney A if their work can be pushed back for attorney B’s work and it is okay. Other times I have to ask another assistant to do the work, because both tasks are equally urgent.

        So just make sure you are honest with yourself about work that is really needed by 4:30 pm like a filing/production deadline, versus work that is urgent and would be nice/great to have but does not actually need to be done that day and it can wait until the next day.

        If they only support you that is moot. But some lawyers who work with assistants that support multiple people sometimes forget that their assistant supports multiple attorneys/people and can’t drop everything for them.

      2. Reindeer Hut Hostess*

        It sounds like this is a relatively infrequent issue. If that’s the case, why not set your own calendar event daily, such as “Anything I need from Elsa?” If not, there’s no need for a meeting, and you can both continue with whatever you’re doing. If so, then you pop over to her desk and ask for what you need. A daily meeting on both of your calendars seems like it may be overkill.

      3. Anon For This*

        TQB, if you have a client management system it probably allows you to assign tasks with deadlines. We use Clio and the task system has proven extremely helpful. It’s a lot easier to triage the to-do list when we have a firm deadline for things.

      4. bamcheeks*

        I am not quite sure why you are getting so many people suggesting that you should put a note in your own calendar rather than ask Elsa to make it part of her routine! It seems like a completely sensible request to me and a perfectly normal way to manage different working days. As long as you’re giving her reasonable opportunity to say if that would disrupt her workflow and you’re not mean to her if she interrupts you in a deep-concentration task, it’s fine. Personally I’ve always massively preferred working for people who are clear about what they need and when it’s OK to interrupt them than ones who leave you guessing.

        1. MassMatt*

          Because the full subtext of the suggestion of many people putting the burden on the assistant is “have her check in before she leaves, and then give her hours of work to do you didn’t think of until 4PM”. Either she stays hours past her quitting time (possibly unpaid, if she’s salaried/exempt) or this stuff piles up for the next day.

          IMO someone with support staff should have the ability to plan and assign tasks appropriately throughout the day and not only come to think of them after the staff is gone because said staff didn’t come in to “remind” them. Staff should not have to basically remind their boss to assign them work, let alone do so on the way out the door.

          1. TQB*

            OK, to be fair, my full subtext is limited to the first part of the burden, not the hours of additional work part. The specific example that led me to ask the question was a fedex that had to go out and she was waiting on me for the address. Elsa does support more than just me, and I do not think it’s her responsibility to hound me all afternoon for the info she needed. Unfortunately I looked up at 4:40 and had to scramble.

            The reason for the question is entirely your second point, and I appreciate that the split of opinion in my own mind as to whether this is a reasonable ask vs. a thing I should learn to suck less at is mirrored in the comments!

      5. Saturday*

        “I think I will ask her to do this, but leave it up to her as to when she does it such that it’s actually meaningful and does not disrupt her end of day process.”

        That seems like a great compromise.

    9. Kevin Sours*

      I always thought that being organized so the boss doesn’t have to was like 90% of an assistant’s job description.

    10. NotYourMom*

      Agree that 4pm is too late. Daily check ins for same day tasks are great … but often bosses underestimate how long a task will take. Dropping an hour task at 4pm still means employee stays til 5pm.

      If it’s a same day thing, make it early enough for your assistant to actually make it happen by her day end.

    11. Bitte Meddler*

      I’m surprised the attorney hasn’t already set a reminder for themselves at 3:30 to pull their brain out of whatever they’re working on to see if there’s something last-minute they need the assistant to take care of.

      I’d be peeved to be asked to check in with my boss before I logged off. Like, they’re an adult and they can employ the same organizing tools everyone else does.

      But I also was an executive assistant for a hot minute before realizing that it is *not* the job for me (see above, where I’d be annoyed that my boss can’t manage themselves).

  8. Ace*

    I’m that petty person who would go onto Pattie’s social media post and say something like “Missed you at the presentation meeting you were meant to lead today, but super glad you nailed your frontwards backwards triple flip trick. Priorities ftw!”

    I’m genuinely astounded that she still has a job.

    1. Brain the Brian*

      Sorry to say it, but that’s a great way to get *yourself* fired for airing dirty laundry publicly. I wouldn’t advise this.

      1. duinath*

        Yeah, I understand the impulse but this is one of those things that are fun to think about but we should not actually do.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, this is deciding that Pattie won’t be the most visibly drama-centered employee anymore.

        Weirdly, a rule of the missing stair is that there can only be one. If some newbie shows up and tries to shift the group dynamics to hop over them instead, they are fiercely fought off for messing with the established cultural norms.

        1. Emmy Noether*

          I did once work in a department with three people that were… maybe not exactly missing stairs, but wobbly stairs for sure. Ones you’d certainly try to hop over if you could. Each one in a different way, though. They’d all been there for ages before I started, so I don’t know how it happened. They were friendly with each other and would go take their smoke breaks together.

          What is absolutely certain is that you cannot transform into a missing stair once people have seen you be reasonable. You HAVE to be one from the start.

    3. Starbuck*

      This is a very risky move unless you’re absolutely certain that the video was filmed and also posted that same day. Even then, bad idea. Doesn’t do anything to help you or make you look good.

  9. Lily*

    Just want to offer my sympathies and encouragement to LW#2. It’s such a crap situation to be in. Many of us have been there before.

    I don’t have much useful advice to offer – do what you can to look after yourself as you go through it – set yourself up for the day with a nice breakfast, wear a favourite outfit that makes you feel like your best professional self, plan a nice activity with a good friend immediately after the review etc etc.

    Take the opportunity to reflect on how you got to this point and whether you can avoid it in future. Maybe you can’t! But maybe there are some small steps you can take. I left my last job which was ‘really bad fit for me ‘ about 6 months after I really should have quit because I wanted to wrap up some half-done projects first for professional reasons. I think it was a good decision at the time but on reflection I would quit much earlier next time, and I’ve got a new list of red flags to watch out for in future roles. Times when I don’t feel like going to a networking event, or doing a volunteer project for my professional association for my industry , or I’d rather spend my monthly contribution to my emergency fund on something fun, I remember how grateful I was for my savings and my networks when I hated my job. (None of that is intended to be p0llyannish or lecturing, just sharing what I’ve gotten out of a similar crap situation)

    Worth considering as well that perhaps your performance hasn’t been as bad as you suspect (often true for letter writers here) and/or if your managers aren’t very competent they might avoid a direct conversation about it (see also many many past AAM letters!) Or if they’re good they will want to help you through this.

    And be assured that you will feel so much better when you find a role that’s a better fit.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Take the opportunity to reflect on how you got to this point and whether you can avoid it in future. Maybe you can’t! But maybe there are some small steps you can take.
      I really second this–it’s so common, when you’re head down in the weeds, to see no other paths, and when you look back a decade later from a different mental space you’re like “Oh, yeah, I see them now.”

      Sometimes you can extract a pattern and recognize it the next time it looms, short-circuiting your side of it.

    2. ferrina*

      All of this is excellent advice.
      I hope LW is able to be very kind to themself that day- eat food that makes them feel good, wear comfortable clothing that they love, have a relaxing hobby lined up after work, and maybe have some of their support network on standby in case you want to call someone.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I extra-agree with the advice to schedule something fun after work that day. I heard an interview with a women’s health specialist who suggested the same for having a mammogram, since those are definitely not fun, and when I was going through foster parent training they recommended that for days when the foster kids have visits with their birth families. It’s not a bad idea for anything, honestly, although as an adult I’m like, Yeah, but what’s to stop me from doing the fun thing *before* I do the un-fun thing. Hence why I personally can’t use this method for doing chores I hate, because I just skip the chore and go immediately to the fun, but I digress. It does work for things you can’t get out of like work performance reviews, though.

  10. ReachForTheStars*

    Letter 1. I think the whole BMX thing is actually pretty irrelevant. As other people have said, they could have been taken earlier and then posted at another time (and in a way, it shouldn’t impact you as a worker whether she’s spending her sick leave in bed or on a BMX as long as she has proper cover). In addition to this, as someone who has had to take chunks of time off for mental health leave and still was out and about doing things that benefited *my mental health* because it was the only way I could actually survive, the comments about ‘if she’s sick she should be in bed’ are somewhat dangerous, because sick leave can cover a lot of different things and there’s already a slight ableist vibe in the comments.

    So the BMX thing isn’t actually all that relevant: what is relevant is that the proper sick leave arrangements and cover (to avoid times when Pattie hasn’t been accessible, not put someone who claims to be sick on big presentations etc) hasn’t been arranged. I’m not saying that Pattie may not have been lying, as I don’t know the situation well enough, but it sounds like HR – and your boss – could have been more on it to ensure Patty’s absences, whether they’re legit or not, did not impact the rest of the team.

    1. ReachForTheStars*

      And to clarify, this isn’t saying that I necessarily think Pattie is on the up and up! She might well not be. But a good company would have ensured that there’s reasonable coverage of such absences, in a way that even if an employee is pulling something iffy, it doesn’t impact other employees to the extreme extent that it seems to have done OP and their coworkers. And the fact that they haven’t troubled to do so is, I think, more of a pressing issue even than Pattie’s possible-shenanigans.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I agree. I think if numerous people are resigning, there is a bigger problem than just Pattie. Don’t get me wrong, Pattie does sound like a problem in a lot of ways, but it sounds like her managers are failing to do anything to deal with the problem and honestly, she shouldn’t be able to just insist on leading projects. Heck, my then 1st years (12 and 13 year olds) last year told a classmate that he could have a significant role in the class project if he showed he could come in regularly for the next two weeks because they didn’t want him taking on a role and then leaving it undone. They handled it as well as I would have, to be honest, so I left them at it. If 12 and 13 year olds can set a boundary like that, Pattie’s manager should be able to say something like, “no, X will lead that project” or at least appoint somebody else to assist so that there is somebody who can lead if Pattie doesn’t show.

        I can understand management not wanting to get in to whether Pattie’s sick days are legitimate or not because yeah, I can imagine a situation where somebody’s mental health would make it difficult for them to deal with presentations, work stresses, etc but would not prevent them from doing a sport (though I agree there are concerns about how she knew she would be available to take part in competitions that she likely had to sign up for ahead of time) but the options aren’t just either “call Pattie a liar and accuse her of faking her mental health problems” or “sit back and do nothing.”

        There are ways they could reduce the impact of Pattie’s absences and under-performance, whether there is a valid reason for them or not and there are definitely ways they can address things like her lateness to meetings and the difficulty of reaching her.

        I suspect Pattie is more a sign of engrained problems.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Pattie is the problem tap dancing on the desk while flinging powdered creamer over her hapless coworkers.

      2. sheworkshardforthemoney*

        Yes, they don’t have a BMX issue, they have an employee who is not doing their work and leaving it for others to take over issue. Pattie could be collecting seashells but she is still dropping the ball on her work responsibilities.

        1. Starbuck*

          Also a management issue if they’re doing nothing about all the dropped balls. No coverage plan? No manager stepping in to re-assign who is doing the presentation tasks that Pattie isn’t up for? That they’re allowing this to go on is a big failure on their part. Policing how sick she is or isn’t does not need to come in to it to solve the problem.

    2. Harper the Other One*

      Yes, I agree. My husband had to take some medical leave and aside from struggling with the overall stigma about leave for mental health, he was so worried someone would see him going to the grocery store or taking the kids to a movie and get angry that he “didn’t really need the leave.” But he desperately needed to get out of the house and at one point his therapists were also recommending being in public spaces as part of his therapeutic plan.

      OP should focus on the “reasonable accommodations” part of this picture which is that it’s not reasonable to have Patty as a project lead for projects that have required in-person components until she’s at a point where she can comfortably meet that commitment, which would be demonstrated by being reachable, etc. during other tasks. I’m sure there are projects she can lead that DON’T have a set time frame, especially in a government setting!

    3. Thomas*

      This. Not fit for work doesn’t mean not fit for X non-work activity! The employer might quite reasonably be suspicious but there’s no evidence the employee is actually faking illness in what the LW says.

      Action for being incapable of doing the job even with reasonable accommodations is the more important angle here IMO.

    4. bamcheeks*

      I think so too, and my main advice to LW and the colleagues who are remaining at that job is to stop looking at her social media. I get that it’s frustrating, but honestly, you’re just giving yourselves material to get more mad and stressed out, and that is entirely within your control. And you 100% could find yourself in the exact same work situation with a colleague who has a variable and unpredictable chronic illness but is valuable enough that the company wants to keep her.

      In terms of what the manager can do, I think there are quite a few options between “fire / discipline Patti” and “pretend everything’s fine”. The first time anyone prepared a big presentation and then called out on the actual day, there should have been a conversation about back-ups and making sure your presentation has detailed notes or a script, is saved on the shared drive where everyone can access it, and that someone is briefed to step in if necessary (and that’s just good practice! Anyone can wake up with puking bug!) It would also be OK for the manager to assign Pattie work that has more flexible deadlines, fewer meetings and less time-critical elements like big presentations, and she shouldn’t need HR’s permission to do that.

      If the manager does all of that, and has documented evidence that Pattie’s working practices are still not meeting expectations, and HR refuses to let you move to any more robust action, then yes, it’s an HR problem. But getting into the mindset that the only options are “ignore Pattie” or “discipline/fire Pattie” is a manager problem.

      I think there’s a real danger in these situations of assuming that these kind of problems only ever arise when the person with a disability is cheating the system, manipulative, lying, deceitful, etc who deserves to be fired. But actually, pretty much every work-impact that LW describes can happen when someone is doing their absolute level best to manage an unpredictable chronic condition and still doing meaningful work. and a manager should have a compassionate, solution-focussed approach before they have a disciplinary approach.

      1. HonorBox*

        You’re right about reassigning tasks. I think that’s the first and best option. If there are things that Pattie can do that have more flexible deadlines and aren’t quite as mission-critical, that gives her some space to work, and can be a reasonable accommodation for the business. It sounds like she’s volunteering (insisting) on leading things, and that can easily be stopped. I agree that having someone deputized to step in should anyone be out ill makes sense, and going forward I’d hope management would see that. But they don’t have to let Pattie take on the leadership role just because she wants to. They have solid evidence that shows she’s not the right person to do that. I think compassionate and solution-focused is a great way to look at it, but it needs to be compassionate and solution-focused for the rest of the team, as well.

      2. MassMatt*

        These ideas for having back-ups etc are reasonable and make sense but the effect in this dysfunctional office will simply be making it easier for Patty to do no work and for management to pretend everything is OK.

        The most likely reason people are leaving isn’t because they are steamed at Patty’s BMX posts, it’s that they already have to stay late or have projects suffer etc because she isn’t doing her work.

        1. bamcheeks*

          I mean — possibly? But the question was what the manager can do, and the main dysfunction is that the manager is not managing. It might not be a dysfunction office if the manager was doing their job!

          1. MassMatt*

            The manager doing his job means dealing with Patty not doing HER job, not simply making lots of contingency plans to have other people in the office do it for her in addition to their own work. This is why people are leaving.

            1. Starbuck*

              But it also sounds like Pattie is taking tasks/presentations that other people might like to do – “insisting” on doing the projects makes it seem like there are others who would do it but she’s taking the more desirable (or prestigious maybe) work despite not being reliable. So reassigning those things from the start could actually help a lot with the frustration if it means Pattie is doing the more flexible, but perhaps less desirable/resume/network building work.

        2. abca*

          I don’t know if it is the most likely. It is telling that the LW mentions absolutely nothing about how this impacts their work. In a quite long letter that goes into some detail about fictional BMX events. It may seem unlikely to you, but there are unfortunately quite a lot of people who just feel extremely angry when they feel that people are “abusing the system”, even if it has zero impact on them.

  11. What's It All About?*

    LW 4 – I ask the two staffers who report to me to check out with me 30 minutes before they’re off because I often have things to tell / discuss with them and once they leave I’m alone in the building. I’m assuming this is okay?

    1. Agent Diane*

      So long as everything is stuff that can wait till the next working day, yes. But if you’re dropping “do this before you leave” tasks on them, it would be better to allow an hour.

    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Personally, I’d prefer my boss give me information in the a.m. or via email because if they’re telling me things 30 min before I leave, then I have to find a way to commit to remembering this information a whole day or so later. I don’t want to have to think about work after work.
      But as long as you’re not leaving them with takeaway tasks that require them to rush work at the end or possibly stay overtime, I don’t see any real issues.

    3. MassMatt*

      Why are you waiting to do this until just before they leave? Unless these tasks take less than a half hour to do, what is the point of telling them at 4PM instead of 9AM the next day? Or better, 9AM THAT day?

      I worked for a manager that was full of bright ideas for reports to run or numbers to look up in the late afternoons just before I left. He was like a squirrel storing up nuts for the winter, and it drove me batty until I set some boundaries.

      1. What's It All About?*

        It’s not tasks it’s just recapping the day. I’m not giving out assignments or anything, we work in a very customer forward job so it’s more stuff like “oh I saw shelly was here did she help you with that report like you wanted?” or “I heard the A/C wasn’t working in assembly room B did you hear that too?” and then I would take action depending on what they said.

    4. Freya*

      I walk past my boss’ desk on my way out, not only to be polite and let them know I’m not here, but also (when appropriate) to give them a quick update on big tasks and where they are and give them a heads-up on any probable bottlenecks that might require them to do something. We rarely have anything extra to add to each other’s workloads, but that minute and a half to five minutes every day means they’re comfy that I’m on top of things and they then turn their focus to other matters.

  12. call me wheels*

    On a recent episode of My Brother, My Brother and Me (comedy “advice column” podcast) they had a question from someone who was I think worried about getting in trouble at work for spending too much time on the break room puzzle each day and they were coming up with silly solutions to it. It was fun :)

    1. mskyle*

      We briefly had a puzzle table at my work… pro tip: don’t put your puzzle table directly outside the CEO’s office.

    1. bamcheeks*

      My experience of spider plants is that you think you have ten, you turn your back, and suddenly you have three hundred and twenty two spider plants and you’re asking everyone you know whether they’d like a spider plant.

  14. EU resident*

    PSA for EU residents: I’m really surprised by the UK/EU comments here saying that they are allowed to do “anything” if on mental health sick leave. I am based on the EU (tho not in UK) and this is often not the case! Be very careful and check your national health insurance rules. In my country, you must ensure that you are at your declared residence between certain hours of the day unless you are going to/from a dr appt, pharmacy, or picking up “vital” supplies (bread from bakers, food for a few days from supermarket, etc). Or going to an urgent administrative appt (tax office, unemployment, court, city hall, etc, though sick leave docs are enough to get nearly any of these appts rescheduled as excused).

    Otherwise, you are expected to be at home, at your residence, unless your health care provider has specified that you are authorized “outings” (and you need to ask what falls into that category–it may not be everything you think of, and you may not be allowed to leave beyond a certain parameter without special authorization! For example, beyond your county or region may be considered unauthorized)

    Why is this important? If you’re in an accident or get injured outside of your home while on medical sick leave, you need to prove that you were on an authorized outing. If you can’t, you could be on the hook for the total cost of that accident/follow-up care for yourself and even others. Imagine if you were driving a car and, heaven forbid, hit someone or had a road collision. The police and health insurance would investigate that you could even end up with big fines/losing health care privileges/etc.

    I’m not saying you can never drive or go anywhere while on leave–this is also why those who may not be in a fit position to drive can get a paid-for ride to/from appointments with a doctor’s note.

    I found out about this the first year I was a resident. A colleague was out on sick leave for around 10 days, as she had a bad chest infection. On the last day (Friday) decided she was feeling well enough to go to her parents’ home. Unfortunately for her, she was not authorized to do so, left during work hours ( 8-12 and 14-16 are obligatory “at home” hours while on sick leave except for dr and pharmacy etc). She sadly was involved in a car collision outside of our country (we are near the border, and she was just outside the other country’s “border region” as well).

    She ended up with a fine from her car insurance (who also did not cover the accident, so she was out thousands of euros to cover damages to her car), and a fine from the national health insurance, plus having to pay back the week’s sick leave pay and dr appt, lab tests, radiologist, and etc she had had done (had been completely covered but was revoked with a fine!). And, she had to cover everything health wise related to the accident herself, as it was found that she should never have been there according to the terms of her sick leave. She was lucky that she was relatively unscathed, but she had to cover costs for physical therapy for her neck and back for a long time, and it’s possible in the future that her mortgage insurance might refuse to cover costs of remaining mortgage payments if she were ever incapacitated due to neck and back problems…

    So, tldr: CYA and check what is authorized if you’re on sick leave!

    1. Melissa*

      WOW! Always like learning about how various laws work in different countries. That is a lot of oversight.

      1. EU resident*

        It usually doesn’t come into force unless there’s an accident or injury where you need additional care.

        I have a friend who had the inverse happen as well:

        He was on mental health leave for six weeks due to intense burnout caused by bullying and mobbing. It was already being examined in court, and his sick leave doc listed the “extreme” sports he was authorized to do: skiing, snowboarding, and others that the dr specifically noted he must do for his health. He went skiing (so, authorized outing!) but didn’t realize that it was juuust technically outside of his healthcare region while on the mountain. Through a lucky confluence of circumstances, though, his medevac costs were fully covered by that region’s healthcare. The care fell into an administrative loophole, and they were very sympathetic to his case, as another skiier had lost control on a slope they were not experienced enough to be on, lost control, and pushed my friend off the mountain side. It was an extremely bad accident, and my friend is lucky to be alive at all. (Witnesses saw what happened and called in the emergency services and provided testimony to the police). He has fully recovered, but he won’t go up a mountain again!

        My friend had thankfully paid the extra fee for the day’s ski insurance, and they considered that he had done his due diligence and was basically unlucky that the mountainside he was on was technically over the line, especially once he got pushed off the slope.

        So again: super important to CYA!

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          It usually doesn’t come into force unless there’s an accident or injury where you need additional care.
          This can be so hard to convey about rules to people, since usually nothing goes wrong. Cousin Ernie ignores the rules 87 times and nothing ever happens, and then you just once slip out for a quick errand and are rear-ended and The Rules are coming down like sledge hammers.

      2. Emmy Noether*

        I just looked it up for my country and the rule is “can’t do anything that will hinder recovery from the illness”. Which is mostly left to personal judgement, though of course it helps if a medical provider approved (doesn’t have to be written approval). Going out to get some groceries (and not even only emergency groceries) or taking a walk is often given as an example of something reasonable to do.

        You also have to get permission from health insurance before leaving the country. Which also makes sense, as health care is covered across EU countries (+Switzerland), but it’s… generally a lot of paperwork and hoops to jump through. Plus there’s a rule that you can’t go out of country on purpose to get treatment, which could also be a problem if you go out of country already sick with a higher probability to need treatment.

        As EU resident notes, the problem is often insurance. Unfortunately, insurances will often try to find a reason they don’t have to cover (though I have to say, mine has been generally nice and humane). You don’t really want to find yourself in a situation where you’re sick AND injured AND fighting with your health insurance whether or not what you did was reasonable.

      3. Cat Tree*

        Yeah, this is one of the ways that I DON’T want the US to emulate Europe. Although if that’s the price to pay for guaranteed paid sick leave, I guess I could tolerate it. It’s not good though and there has to be a better way of doing it.

        1. bamcheeks*

          We definitely don’t have rules like “stay in your house/county” in the UK, but a lot of the impacts EU resident describes on his colleague are actually “insurance companies looking for reasons not to pay out”, and I think that’s probably a universal problem.

        2. Zelda*

          Yeah, this sounds more like being on parole from prison than like sick leave. “Don’t do anything that worsens the illness/injury” and “don’t do anything that you could only do if the illness/injury were fictitious” seem like reasonable limitations, but “Home and vital supply runs only!!” seems awfully draconian.

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            I think they are describing the system in France, where employers notoriously don’t believe it when their employees get sick. They can ask for an inspector to visit you at your home and check up on what you are doing to make sure you’re not working a second job or having too much fun.

            When I was off for several months due to employer harassment, my employer actually had me summoned to an office to prove that I was indeed sick. Joke was on him: not only did I prove I was sick, the doctor even noted that I was in no fit state to ever work for him again. She had to visit the company and interview him to check against what I had said about his harassment, and while she was there she noticed that my colleagues were all totally stressed out, so she launched an investigation into the entire firm!

            1. EU resident*

              You got it, rebelwithmouseyhair!–the rules themselves fit on one side of a sheet of A4 paper. They are easy to read and understand, but some people don’t really think through the implications for a mid or longer term leave (more than a week).

              As long as you ask for an authorization or declare a different address to the health insurance, you’re definitely allowed to go places! For example, a friend was in a similar situation to yours, rebelwithmouseyhair (in her case harassed and then locked in a room by her male reports overnight). It was appalling and her doctor put her on permanent sick leave until the court sorted her situation out. It was a nearly two year process to get through, but on full sick leave and treatment for mental health. She simply applied for an authorization to live with her grandparents for several months of her leave. They were in the neighboring country. That way, her “official” address was in the next country over and the checkups you describe happened there.

          2. EU resident*

            Those are the rules if you aren’t allowed out. If you are on sick leave because you have a contagious infection, you rightly need to be at home, resting during work hours.

            If you are allowed out (I have had both), it’s because you don’t have something contagious and/or you are on leave for something similar to burnout. Often, the “must stay home” leave is for short term leave. Strep throat? Obligatory 2 day at home leave. Whiplash related to car accident? A few days of strictly at home leave, followed by lighter leave. It’s usually reviewed every week or so by your doctor if you are on longer leave for such a case.

            Sick leave is also designed to protect others from you if you are contagious and to protect you from your instincts to “just go to the shop” when you really shouldn’t! That’s part of why it is a paid leave.

        3. doreen*

          I’m not 100% sure that there is a better way to do it depending on how long the sick leave can be – I actually know of jobs in the US that have very restrictive sick leave policies. You can only leave home during certain hours while you are on sick leave unless you have permission and that permission is only granted if you have a good enough reason. What these jobs have in common is that their unions negotiated a contract decades ago that gives them essentially unlimited paid sick leave – if someone was out sick for multiple consecutive years they could possibly be forced to go on disability or retire, but I knew someone who got full pay for three years. I guess it was worth it to him to deal with all the restrictions – but if there were no restrictions, who wouldn’t take full pay for years instead of retiring or going on disability?

        4. Emmy Noether*

          I sadly suspect it’s inevitable. When sick leave is a benefit given according to need (like unemployment benefits etc.) rather than a type of compensarion, there are always going to be those who panic about people “abusing the system”. Which leads to controls and rstrictions.

    2. EU resident*

      Ah, in one paragraph I didn’t finish my thought! You may be authorized to go out and about if you are on sick leave for mental health reasons. However, if you are not certain you are in fit state to drive or take public transport, you might even get a medical taxi transport, as the health insurance takes these things very seriously! Especially if you might be a danger to others/yourself while driving (burnout/depression/other types of episodes where you might not have the mental stability to drive…). If that’s your case, don’t hesitate to describe your symptoms to your dr so that they can get you the assistance you’re entitled to!

    3. Madame Arcati*

      It’s not true in the U.K. either that you can do whatever you want if you are on sick leave. Like, you can’t be on sick because your injured knee means you can’t drive your delivery van, and then dig the garden and play in your local five a side.

      1. Media Monkey*

        absolutely this. i would expect that if you were off work sick and that all of the occasions happened to coincide with a big competition that you were competing in that you would be pulled up on it. sick leave in the UK is not considered part of your compensation and limited to a set number of days as it is in the US. Your company will have an issue with excessive sick days and you would likely to put onto statutory sick pay from the government.

        1. kicking-k*

          This, although there are some grey areas: my husband, who has chronic fatigue, isn’t on SSP because his company pays him a “long-term sickness payment” that is covered by their insurance. He did have to OK it with them before he did some volunteer work. But otherwise, if he has a good enough day to exercise or whatever, he’s allowed to do it. I *don’t* think he’d be allowed to run a side hustle that made him money (he wouldn’t be able to, so it’s moot).

          1. Media Monkey*

            oh i’m so glad he is able to get something (which is hopefully more than the stingy SSP payment). my friend has CFS and is really struggling at the moment. it’s an awful illness.

            1. Clewgarnet*

              It really is. I did best when I had a manager who realised that, even if my attendance was spotty at best, I was still getting through more work than anybody else on my team, so he did everything he could to cover my ass. If I went above the HR-mandated sickness levels, I wasn’t off sick – I was doing project work from home. The reduction in stress made my CFS far more manageable.

            2. kicking-k*

              MediaMonkey, it really is. He’s been dealing with it for about 20 years now and it’s just eaten the years in which he’d normally build his career and do the more fun younger-adult stuff.
              We are very grateful for the payment but it has tied him to this company. I sometimes wonder if he should have resigned and looked for a remote position that would have been easier to do in small spurts. But that kind of thing wasn’t really available in his field pre-pandemic and now he’s been out long enough that recent experience and retraining would be an issue. At the moment, he’s the primary carer for our kids (who are bigger and at school, so he can just about manage it) so we aren’t looking to change that for now. But it’s so frustrating. He’s the most intelligent, hardworking person I know and if not for this stupid illness, would be a rockstar on anyone’s team.

      2. amoeba*

        Well, yes, that would fall under “would hinder recovery from the illness” in Germany, so it would obviously not be allowed, either. While doing the same thing when out for burnout would be OK, because it might actually be considered actively helpful.

        (I assumed we had a lot of bureaucracy, but in this case it seems like the rules are actually quite simple and reasonable!)

        1. EU resident*

          Agreed–I live in a region of a country that borders several countries, so I probably know of more health care insurance horror stories than most! Mountains + borders = sticky situations that cost lots of money!

    4. Mentally Spicy*

      That’s… a lot! I would be very interested to know what country this is because, for me as a UK citizen, none of that is applicable.

      In the UK there are actually very few hoops to jump through when taking sick leave. I’m unaware of any provision in UK employment law where a company would have any standing to dictate how and where you spend your time while off sick beyond a few requirements such as staying reasonably contactable and keeping in touch regarding your absence and how long it may last. Obviously if you’re off work sick while posting videos of you competing in extreme sports competitions that will be a problem if the company hears about it.

      I can’t speak to health insurance because we don’t really have that in the UK, but the idea that your car insurance wouldn’t pay out if you got in an accident while off work sick is utterly baffling to me! It seems like a huge overreach for a car insurance provider to say, effectively, “you were supposed to be at work or resting at home when the accident happened, so we’re not paying out”.

      I’m not saying I disbelieve you, just …. yeah, that’s a lot!

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      While the EU has established certain rules across the EU (and I think the UK still adheres to a lot of them), they generally tend to be a minimum and countries have a fair amount of leeway to establish their own rules within them.

      Health care is also one of the things that isn’t at all centralised within the EU. Ireland’s system is bizarre and some organisation, maybe the WHO, has said we didn’t have universal healthcare, as they define it. Another, maybe the UN, says the opposite. So basically…nobody knows what the heck is going on, I suspect including those running it. But we don’t have National Health Insurance, so…that isn’t going to be a concern here. So yeah, it’s likely to differ by country.

      1. Chickadee*

        Yeah, I can’t think of any situation in France where somebody would have to “pay back” medical care. I live abroad, but I have a lot of family there, and there’s zero link between employment and health care. I just can’t see a doctor asking if you were on proper leave from work!

        1. Emmy Noether*

          Actually, what EU resident describes sounds a lot like France, which is counterintuitively more bureaucratic about this than Germany, for example. You often need a doctor’s note from first day of illness. Basic health insurance is not linked to the employer, but the “complémentaire santé” most often is.

          Health insurance pays for your sick leave, so they ARE interested in what your are doing. Until July of this year, you needed their approval for leaving the département while sick. Here’s what the official site says (to be fair, it often isn’t applied like that in real life, but this IS the law):

          Can an employee on sick leave leave his home?

          It all depends on what the doctor has said about your sick leave.

          3 situations are possible:

          The doctor may prohibit you from going out during your sick leave because your health does not allow it
          The doctor may allow you to go out during your sick leave but you must be present at your home (unless you need medical attention or examinations) 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. to 4 p.m., including Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays.
          The doctor may allow you to go out in complete freedom (i.e. without scheduling restrictions). In this case, the doctor shall refer to the stoppage of work the medical evidence which justifies his opinion.

          1. Chickadee*

            Hm interesting, thanks for the info! I’ll have to ask my family for more info next time we talk.

          2. Starbuck*

            “Health insurance pays for your sick leave”

            As someone in the US, this is a fascinating concept and also kind of horrifying to think about how that would work locally, given our system here.

      2. londonedit*

        Yeah, here in the UK the NHS isn’t run on a health insurance model, so there wouldn’t be any issues about who’s paying for medical care etc. We can self-certify as sick for up to 7 days, but beyond that you need a doctor’s note. Where I work if you’re signed off sick by your doctor, my employer will top up the government’s Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) to your full salary for a period of time (up to 15 weeks depending on length of employment) so then it’s not the NHS who would be worried about what you’re doing on sick leave, but your employer. Rather than ‘sick notes’ we now have ‘fit notes’, where a doctor will either say that you’re not fit to work, or that you may be fit to work, in which case you speak to your employer about any necessary accommodations (for example not lifting things, or working reduced hours, or whatever). So I think if you’re signed off as ‘not fit to work’, then you really shouldn’t be doing anything that contradicts that. Which travelling to and competing in a BMX competition would more than likely fall under, if only from an ‘optics’ point of view. I don’t think a doctor’s note would ever specify what you are and aren’t allowed to do – certainly not to the extent of the example from France above – but generally if you’re doing something that contradicts your doctor’s note then your employer isn’t going to be happy.

    6. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      When my kid worked in Switzerland the co-workers drove to France for work lunches because it was close enough to make the trip. It must have been approved because the director organized the trips. It’s still a goal for me to be able to to pop into France for a leisurely lunch.

      1. Emmy Noether*

        Geneva or Basel? :-) In Basel you can bike to France to get lunch and then later pop into Germany for after work beers. And then return home by streetcar. It’s the coolest.

        1. amoeba*

          You can also easily go on a run that takes you through all three countries from my house! And not a crazy marathon either – bit more than 5k should be enough…

        2. Bananagram*

          I think Basel residents are the proudest I’ve ever met. Apparently the bread is better in France, go figure. :)

        3. sheworkshardforthemoney*

          Basel. I went for a visit and loved it. France for lunch, Germany for groceries because there was a large warehouse like grocery store just across the border. And all that varieties of cheese available everywhere.

    7. bamcheeks*

      This sounds like a system which was implemented around the assumption that sick leave was only supposed to cover acute physical illnesses or injuries, and is wildly unsuited for anyone with a chronic or long-term condition! Do you know if there is any pushback from disability campaigners in your country?

      1. Emmy Noether*

        I think a physician’s note could get one out of most of these restrictions, so maybe that’s the solution for people with chronic conditions?

  15. Nebula*

    The story about Pattie reminds me of something in the news a while ago about a woman in Ireland who claimed she had back injuries that left her unable to work, lift anything, play with her children etc., and then was photographed winning a Christmas tree tossing competition.

    1. Media Monkey*

      a friend’s (now ex) husband who had taken out a lot of loans and credit in their joint names and then gone on disability leave when they split, leaving her on the hook for the bills, got caught playing rugby at the weekend. he claimed to be immobile with a back problem.

    2. Blue Pen*

      Yeah, honestly, the way some people here are contorting themselves into positions to somehow explain Pattie’s behavior is kind of wild to me. I think the BMX thing is a bit of a red herring.

      No one should begrudge anyone for an accommodation to do their work; but Pattie’s work is still not getting done and is causing what sounds like major issues with her team. So, at some point, when is anyone in that workplace going to step in and say, “uh, this isn’t working for us. Either here’s a PIP for you or it’s time for you to look for another job.”

  16. Fiachra*

    #1: This coworker could simply be uploading the footage on days when she’s too ill to do anything else, but if some of the footage is of competitions you can just look up the dates they took place on. If they took place on her sick days that’s strong confirmation she was just on the duck.

  17. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

    For #5, a W2 (which you should be keeping for that long anyway) should also work, shouldn’t it?

    1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      Alison includes “one paystub per year”, and that’s not even a government document. A W-2 would absolutely work as proof of employment.

      Important note: whatever the doc is, it’s to prove you were employed and nobody needs to know what you were paid. So copy the document and use a marker to cover over the actual money amounts. Just leave your name, your SSN, and the employer’s information visible. Then copy the marked-up copy and give that 2nd copy to whoever wants it. That way the info you don’t want to share is completely obliterated.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      And if you lose your W2, it should be part of your tax return, which you can request from the IRS.

  18. bamcheeks*

    Resist the temptation to monitor colleagues’ social media when they are out on sick leave! Nothing good comes of it, and it’s only going to make you more resentful if you find something you don’t approve of (which you can’t do anything about and might have misunderstood anyway), and it puts really shitty horrible pressure on people with real chronic conditions which can vary in severity and effect over a matter of hours, or where the impacts of certain activities are very counter-intuitive to people who aren’t dealing with those conditions.

    You can just … not do that. Focus on the impacts at work.

    1. Tea Monk*

      Yes under stress, we all can be tempted to do things that are counterproductive. If I was OP’s boss and they started in with social media I’d think it was a personal beef.

    2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      yeah there’s plenty else to work on with this problem employee! As is usually the case.

  19. Turingtested*

    LW 1, I’m from the US and have some experience with ADA accommodations from the managerial side.

    A surprising percentage of HR and management workers are terrified to manage the performance of anyone with accommodations and assume it will lead straight to a lawsuit. This is utter nonsense but that could be part of the problem.

    The other thing is that the accommodations and BMX stuff is completely irrelevant. Working 100% in office and never exercising wouldn’t make coworker suddenly timely and responsible.

    Anyway, managing someone with ADA accommodations, genuine health issues and genuine performance issues is about as challenging as it gets as a manager. I’m sorry your leadership team isn’t handling this better but they could be getting bad advice themselves.

    1. bamcheeks*

      I’ve done this in the UK and what made it a lot easier is actually a strong worker-protection culture combined with good HR policies.

      A lot of the time I see the assumption that good worker protections hinder management of underperformance, but I felt that it made it a lot easier. It took a long time because there were a lot of checks and balances in place, but that meant I could be confident in what my role was, that my employee was also supported, and that my decisions would be tested and examined. There was a long period where the employee was on long-term sick leave on full pay, and able to focus on finding another job which was a better fit, which IMO was better for everyone than having someone who was in and out of work and where my only options would have been to tolerate that or fire them. I would have found it much scarier without that framework.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      This is probably what is going on — and leading to the terrible morale that is causing people to quit. Managers who won’t manage. It’s probably not just Pattie they won’t manage either. Pattie is the obvious one since she is allowed to decide she is leading projects, even with a history of not following through.

  20. I should really pick a name*

    #1
    Extreme sports is a red herring.

    This is what a manager should be addressing:

    For the past year, she has been chronically late to meetings, missed deadlines, and been difficult to reach. This would already be bad, but to make matters worse, she insists on leading projects (for example, creating and facilitating a presentation for over 50 participants) and on the day of, ends up being a no-show without advance warning!

      1. HonorBox*

        Exactly. Management can say no. And should say no. She’s proven that she’s not able to deliver, and she shouldn’t be given the opportunity.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Yeah, I agree. If a project leader no-call, no-showed a meeting they were leading, I wouldn’t take meetings with them in the future.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      I agree. Why is someone who is struggling allowed to INSIST on leading projects? You have a management and a “your management (n) is afraid of managing (v) problem employees” problem.

      I wouldn’t say that posting to social media while she is out “sick” should necessarily be ignored by management either.

      We don’t know for sure, but it seems at least one accommodation is already “work from home” when it seems like most of the the rest of the office is in the office. I don’t think there’s any place where being chronically late to meetings, missed deadlines, and been difficult to reach is a reasonable accommodation.

      Be sure to tell your management in your exit interview that you’re leaving because both your manager and HR are refusing to do anything about a problem employee who is making your work duties very difficult to perform. It is very demoralizing that nothing is being done about how it impacts you.

    5. Saturday*

      “Extreme sports is a red herring.” – Agree with your point, but I can also see how the extreme sports thing makes the whole situation more demoralizing for the rest of the staff.

      1. Strive to Excel*

        I think it does and it doesn’t.

        If Patti were posting on Instagram about, oh, her ongoing cancer treatments, people probably wouldn’t be so volubly angry about it – but instead they’d be caught in a massive spiral of “my coworker with cancer is dropping the ball, I’m ending up overworked, and now I’m both angry and guilty about being angry”.

        Drop the ball long enough without consequences, and people will be irritated.

    6. Starbuck*

      Yes, really none of the rest of the letter content should matter to LW, it’s not going to help to bring any of that to management. Focus on the work impacts only.

  21. Vaca*

    We keep seeing versions of #1 – what do you do if your HR sucks? I mean, if they aren’t getting rid of people anyway, what happens if you just say, “Hey, you guys are really terrible and you’re wrong, you need to either figure out how to get rid of her or you need to resign.” I’m obviously being facetious, but if the company is being held hostage by incompetent HR? My limited experience is that senior leadership says they have to do what HR says, they were hired for that, but there has to be some sort of body that sets standards or something, right?

    1. Person from the Resume*

      It seems like I see even more often version of “what do you do if your management sucks?”

      LW1 has a management problem too. Managers do not need to be held hostage to HR. If HR “doesn’t allow” something, management or senior management can tell them to do it or fire them for being incompetent.

      Generally a lot of people don’t want anyone to ever be fired even if they’re incompetent. Or they (management and HR) do not want to be the person who has to tell someone that they are fired and deliver bad news.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        Managers and senior managers generally can’t fire HR. Everywhere I’ve been, HR has had its own silo and command structure. It would take the CEO to fire the head of HR. And it would be the purview of the head of HR to discipline their team.

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, but Manager doesn’t need to fire HR.

          They need to start managing.

          1. Document the *actual* issues.
          2. Stop allowing her to “insist” on taking the lead on projects.
          3. Do what you can to create workflows that reduce the impacts of her poor performance.

          HR won’t make them stop doing this stuff.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            Generally, it’s more productive for discussion if you read posts in the context of posts they’re quoting.

            1. Observer*

              Your point being?

              What about the context here would you expect to have changed my answer?

              The overall context is a coworker who isn’t doing her job, a manager who took way too long to realize that this poses a problem, HR that won’t do anything with the information the inept manager gave them, and the inept manager throwing up her hands. The specific context of this comment is a question about what to do if HR stinks.

    2. Tony Howard*

      HR generally reports to the CEO and in my experience, is more concerned with the rights of the employee than the “morale” of their coworkers or even the “bottom line” of the company. And frankly as I learned the hard way years ago, this is how it should be ! We are in a very litigious society and courts notoriously favor the litigant employee over the big, bad for-profit corporation. HR, in many cases, has gained the trust and admiration of the CEO because of the research they have done , keeping abreast of complicated employment law, civil court trends, etc. and what so many commenters here are all too quick to describe as “weak,ineffective HR” may actually be a dedicated professional who has saved the company millions of dollars in legal fees!

    3. bamcheeks*

      I am not sure what you’re actually asking here, but senior leadership is “being held hostage” by HR. If HR is telling senior leadership that they can’t do something because they’ll get sued, but senior leadership really really wants to do that thing, they can either trust their HR and not do it, do it anyway, or get a second opinion from an independent HR specialist or employment lawyer who might say, “your HR is bad” or “your HR is absolutely correct, please do not do that”.

      HR is there to advise the leadership and be experts on employment law and risk, just as finance is there to advise the leadership and be experts on finance and IT is there to be experts on technology. Good leadership makes sure the right experts are in place, and that they have the right qualifications and are plugged into the right professional organisations and networks, and good governance is making sure there are other people (such as experts on the board) who can say, “I am concerned about your finance/HR/IT/etc people and the advice you’re getting from them”. But no system is 100%.

  22. Hyaline*

    LW1, it might be helpful to tease apart the TWO problems you have with Pattie: One, she may be abusing her accommodations. Two, her accommodations are not working out for the rest of the team, and are putting undue stress on you and your coworkers. One of these is directly your business; the other is not.

    I get that it may be frustrating that Pattie may be abusing sick leave (as others have said, it’s possible that only the posting is happening while she’s out, of past events–and please, if this is the case, do not press on it, because there are few things worse as a chronically ill person than the expectation that you must prove your illness by never doing anything fun). But it’s not your business. It’s for your manager and HR to get into, not you, and if they choose not to, that’s frustrating, but not your decision. If it helps, stop looking at her socials to tamp down any BEC impulses doing so engenders.

    But Pattie flaking on projects, leaving you and your coworkers in the lurch, essentially being an absentee coworker? That’s not ok, and it IS your business, and you can and should push back on getting an equitable solution in place. As Alison said, it’s supposed to be *reasonable* accommodations, and that means not dumping unfairly on the rest of the team. If they can’t make Pattie do the work (and refuse to fire her), they need to consider other alternatives–hiring someone else, getting a temp, scaling back projects, redistributing to other teams, whatever.

  23. Rey*

    LW4: I added an alarm that goes off at 4 to remind me that I have one hour left. It has been helpful so I can at least check in with myself if there’s anything I needed to send before the end of the day, or clean up so that the folks who get in before me the next day will have what they need. So maybe set an alarm for 3 or 3:30 to check in with yourself and pass any remaining needs or tasks on to your assistant?

  24. el l*

    OP4 – Both of you will do a better job if you have a daily check in at 4. That’s reason enough.

  25. Oof and Ouch*

    LW #4 definitely go earlier rather than later! I’m not an assistant, but I have a similar schedule with my boss and she kills me when I see a meeting scheduled for half an hour before I leave or when a last minute request comes through. I know it’s not malicious, for her she’s got another 2-3 hours left in her work day and if I told her I couldn’t get it done and I had to go, she’d be fine with it, but 9 times out of 10 I just stay and get it done.

  26. sheworkshardforthemoney*

    LW3 We have a puzzle table at work. Most people will work on it during breaks or if they happen to pass by. I’ve seen people who don’t really like each other working on it at the same time because it’s a neutral activity. When it’s completed, it’s usually left alone for a few days so everyone can see it and then it goes back into the pile and might cycle back after a few months.

    1. Zelda*

      I’ve seen people who don’t really like each other working on it at the same time because it’s a neutral activity.

      Opinion: Having a jigsaw puzzle in a break room is a better *actual* team builder/ice breaker than any dumb thing anyone has ever done on a company retreat or at the beginning of a meeting. It’s opt-in; you can do as much or as little as you have time for; it’s low stress; it’s cooperative rather than competitive; it’s ongoing and integrated into the culture rather than sporadic. Granted that it is not accessible past a certain level of visual impairment.

      I’ve been at SF conventions that had puzzle tables in social spaces, and they’re awesome for connecting the extremely shy (hi!). I would LOVE to see one at work!

      1. sheworkshardforthemoney*

        We’ve seen the grandboss get caught up for a few minutes. We’re just missing the cat to spawl in the middle and toss pieces off the table.

  27. Khatul Madame*

    LW5 – the only paperwork I keep is tax documentation. I do keep offer letters, but never had to furnish one to verify employment – and I’ve gone through multiple background checks over the years.
    For the past employer that was acquired, go to the “current company” website and get the address and central phone number for the headquarters (or the main office in your country) to use in background check/employment verification. In the US companies use the “Work Number” service for this exact purpose; if not, there is usually someone in HR whose job is to respond to BI/clearance inquiries.
    This would not apply if working for (a string of) small businesses, but I gather this is not your case, having digital paystubs and all.

    1. Love to WFH*

      I recommend keeping W2 for jobs going back at least 10 years, or at least 4 jobs.

      At my last job, they used a 3rd party service to check employment. My past jobs were almost all at companies that had been acquired/merged, and I’m sure there was no department you could contact that would have any knowledge of my work there.

      I had to upload an image of a W2 to verify each job, going quite a ways back.

      1. Grey Coder*

        My last reference check went back more than 20 years — I am healthcare adjacent so the checks are fairly comprehensive. At this point all of my previous jobs are at companies that have disappeared one way or another. I was glad I had old payslips and tax documents going back that far, but one or two per year is probably enough.

  28. HonorBox*

    OP1 – While I get bureaucracy, you manager needs to highlight to HR that there are serious performance issues in play. Missing deadlines and then no-showing for important events that the person is in charge of are both very serious. Pattie may have accommodations, but accommodations don’t give someone a free pass to not do essential functions of their job.

    If I was the manager and HR, I think I’d start by sitting down with Pattie and outlining that deadlines are still deadlines. While accommodations can be made for someone’s absence, the specific functions of the job still need to happen. If she’s going to be out, there has to be a way to hand off aspects of the job so things can still get done. And in handing them off, it can’t just be dropping things in someone else’s lap last second. Along those lines, she needs to be told she will not be allowed to lead functions for at least awhile. It isn’t workable to have someone “leading” a function and then at the last minute not be there and not be available.

    I don’t think I’d focus on the BMX portion. That seems more like a symptom than the problem. While it is probably a major symptom – she may be “using” the accommodation to give her more time to focus on that – the problem would still be the same if she was missing deadlines, no-showing events, and being unavailable if she was sleeping or reading or taking a hot bath. Your manager and HR will probably get more pushback if they focus on the BMX than outlining the issue at hand – a reasonable accommodation for health has to be reasonable for the employer. It doesn’t have to be an open account from which someone writes checks and isn’t doing the core functions of their job.

  29. Guest*

    LW1: Pattie apparently doesn’t do her job, which should be the main focus here. The extreme sports events during “sick” time are a concern, sure, but as Alison said, someone would have to prove they actually took place during her medical leave. Also, does your office separate sick leave from other PTO (mine does) or does it simply give people X amount of PTO for whatever? That may also be a factor.

  30. mango chiffon*

    LW1, why is the manager (who I assume is also Pattie’s manager) letting Pattie take on all these projects? Can manager delegate those tasks to other people? Why is Pattie able to just say she’s taking on all these projects? Why isn’t the manager stepping in and saying no?

    1. HonorBox*

      Assuming here… but my guess is that it is some combination of Pattie having a strong personality and the manager not wanting to tell her no AND the manager not wanting to look like they’re not allowing Pattie to do certain things because of the illness and accommodations.

      But manager needs to actually manage. Illness or no, if someone is not delivering on their job, especially when they’re voluntary things they’re stepping into, manager has a responsibility to assign tasks differently.

      I think since LW is leaving, they might suggest to the manager that while Pattie is a problem and people are leaving because of her, management’s lack of spine related to Pattie and Pattie’s continued missed deadlines and no-shows is really the reason people are leaving. And manager is going to be under the microscope more if they don’t get the ship in order relatively soon.

    2. OP Letter Writer #1*

      HonorBox is right–Pattie has a strong personality and makes a case for taking on these projects (why it HAS to be her and no one else) and I think a general lack of understanding around ADA accommodations has my manager worried that not assigning work to her would look like discrimination.

  31. ruthling*

    for #1, check if you have an ethics or whistleblower hotline and see if they consider this their jurisdiction. Timecard/sickleave fraud is a big deal.

  32. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    3. Give it time. Generally within a few months of entering a new workplace you’ll suss out what their quirks are and whether something would be well received.

    I always took in embroidery work for my lunchtime and a surprising number of people ended up wanting to do a quiet sit/knit/sew/crochet session when they saw me do it. Key things are: don’t take up a lot of room, don’t create a lot of noise and don’t leave a mess.

    1. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      I hated a lot of things about one OldJob but I did love the hour long break and a chance to knit and focus on something besides unravelling travel claims.

  33. a clockwork lemon*

    OP 1- It’s one thing to take a sick day as a mental health day so you can go do your sport on an unusually beautiful random Tuesday. It’s a totally different thing to say you’re on medical leave for treatment while posting pictures and video of yourself abusing your medical leave so you can focus on your side hustle. Your manager needs to be MUCH more involved in making sure that this coworker gets her work done and is responsive during the hours she expects to be working–it’s not out of line to check someone’s public social media and come to the conclusion that they’re skipping work to do other stuff based on the content and timing of their posts.

  34. doreen*

    #2 – you can’t really ask to skip the review altogether but maybe you can avoid the conversation part. Where I worked, performance reviews rarely involved an actual conversation – my manager would give me the written evaluation and I could either read it and sign it , read it and have a conversation and then sign it, or take a day or two to read it and decide whether I wanted to talk about it. No matter which I chose, I could add my own comments. Hardly anyone ever wanted to talk about it.

    1. Bruce*

      doreen, were your reviews generally positive? I think that if LW2 is having big performance issues then there will be a conversation about it.

      1. Doreen*

        Mine were, but plenty of people who got negative reviews didn’t want a conversation either. Some probably knew it was going to be negative , some probably wanted an opportunity to react in private and many probably didn’t see a point to a conversation. I mean , if my review says I often miss deadlines, and this seems to be related to my frequent latenesses , I don’t really think I need to have a conversation about getting to work on time. I might want to , if I think a schedule change will help but otherwise, what conversation would there be other than that my lateness is affecting my performance so I need to get to work on time?

  35. Jediping*

    Company I worked at had a woman with a medical accommodation that also was not a great performer. She would do ok for a while, but eventually get overwhelmed and become unresponsive until she’d no-show and then go on leave. This cycle repeated so many times, because not only HR but the org leadership was unwilling to risk a lawsuit. What her managers did do was not let her take the lead on stuff because they couldn’t trust her. She mostly got the routine, boring work. Which she would complain about, then because of the workload of the team be given more responsibility, then flake out. Over and over. Until finally she got assigned to a manager who made it something of a mission to get enough documentation for the leadership to be comfortable firing her.

    So part of my advice would be to keep documenting everything. Every no-show, every missed deadline, every poorly-done item. But also, stop letting her be in charge of stuff. She can insist all she wants, but it should be up to the manager which team member does what work, not this employee. This should all be documented, as well. It’s going to take more work and attention from the manager, but a lot less work than replacing a mass exodus.

  36. Serious Silly Putty*

    LQ 2- A few things to consider:
    1. Often we are more critical of ourselves than others are. Your review won’t be speaking into the depths of your internalized failures
    2. You’ve already hit on the core of the issue — the job is a bad fit! Can you use the review to talk candidly about your struggle areas and strengths? For instance, I really struggled with all the factors that went into one aspect of my job, but I’m a stronger writer than my boss. She took the things I was worst at off my plate and I took on more grant writing. If YOU name an area as a known weakness, that can give a kind manager an avenue for addressing the issue head-on and making everyone’s lives better.
    3. I have been in situations where I was a freshwater fish in a saltwater tank. The environment wasn’t inherently toxic, but it was toxic to me, and my mental health really suffered. Leaving without having something else lined up helped me to became myself again. Good luck!

    1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

      Thank you — freshwater fish in a saltwater tank is such a great way to put it! I’ve had that feeling at several jobs, like everyone else is gliding through beautifully and I’m gasping and flopping around.

  37. Abigail*

    The colloquial definition of accommodation is different from the legal definition.

    Unfortunately, sometimes people with authority fail to distinguish.

  38. Slaw*

    LW1 – What evidence/proof is there that she’s participating in these events while she’s out? Just because she is posting them during those times doesn’t mean they’re day-of or live, those days off may be the only time she gets to slow down and post on social media. I don’t see where there’s any evidence of her “subsidizing” her BMX influencer career on taxpayer dollars. It sure sounds a lot more to me like people have an axe to grind against her because of her accommodations and are racking up jealousy over something that has nothing to do with their employment. Everything in the letter is circumstantial and sounds an awful lot like sour grapes, tbh.

    1. Dawn*

      How is Pattie “using taxpayer dollars to subsidize her [other] career?” It sounds like she’s using her salary, that she’s earning, that is no longer “taxpayer dollars” once it’s been paid to her.

      Whether she shows up for that job consistently is a different story, but I don’t think you can just accuse someone paid by the government of “using taxpayer dollars” for stuff in their private life that they’re paying for out of their own pocket, whatever the initial source of those funds; that phrase has a specific meaning that involves government misuse.

  39. Pita Chips*

    I would also recommend ten years. Recently, I needed to provide verification of work for the previous decade. W-2s were okay, so were offer letters, termination letters, and performance reviews. I could also ask previous employers for verification letters. These were preferred because they included the job title and department.

    This was a right PITA. A few employers were able to give me verification letters, though one took two weeks. Another company was bought and I never heard back from my request. I submitted W2s for the rest.

  40. rebelwithmouseyhair*

    OP 3 jigsaw person: until you feel comfortable bringing in physical jigsaws, jigsawplanet dot com has a huge number of jigsaws of all sizes, fantastic choice of pix, and it’s free.

    1. Delta Delta*

      There’s a Little Free Library in my town that sometimes has puzzles and games! It’s a great way people in the community swap puzzles.

  41. Anon For This*

    LW2: I absolutely regret suffering through a final performance review with the bully who decided to cancel my contract three months before my tenure package would have been submitted. I was trying to not burn any bridges, but it was horrific.

    What I do not regret is pulling out my phone and recording him because we lived in a one-party state and I could do that. I also don’t regret refusing to sign the performance review.

    YMMV

  42. Medium Sized Manager*

    LW2, I have started sending performance reviews ahead of time so the individual can review/have emotions if they want. Could you ask your manager to do the same so you can allow yourself time to react privately?

    I’m sorry to hear this is difficult – I hope you are able to find a new job soon!

    1. Bruce*

      This is good advice. I also like the suggestion to have a real conversation as soon as possible… don’t volunteer to quit, but don’t wait for the review to talk about what needs to change.

  43. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    LW1: I’ve both been on the management side of ADA accommodations for staff who also have performance issues, and I personally work under a highly flexible schedule that I’ve negotiated with my manager and company leadership for the sake of participating in a sport.

    My two cents:
    – The extreme sport influencer piece is irrelevant. If a high performer would be allowed to build an influencer account while managing their day job, Patti shouldn’t be held to a different standard in terms of her outside of work activities.
    – You may not know all the nuances of Patti’s schedule arrangement; in my case my coworkers and direct reports know I have a flex-work arrangement but they don’t know every detail. I’d be annoyed if they were monitoring my out-of-work activities and letting it impact their experience at work without knowing the whole story.
    – It is entirely possible for a manager to hold someone with ADA accommodations to typical performance standards. Your manager needs to articulate the expectations to Patti (like “meet all deadlines or communicate otherwise at least 3 business days in advance,” and “meet deliverables or secure coverage if that won’t be possible,” and “…but coverage needs to be limited to X situations to avoid overburdening coworkers”) and hold her accountable to the expectations. I’d recommend your manager negotiate these expectations with HR before sharing them with Patti, since that makes the PIP process easier if they end up there.
    – When someone has an unpredictable but flexible schedule, one of the very basic performance standards they can be held to is “establish and clearly communicate protocols for how to handle unexpected absences.” It sounds like Patti has not done this, which is a problem that can be easily fixed.
    – It is also very possible and reasonable for a manager to be human when working with a staff member on ADA accommodations, and hold that humanity in tandem with basic performance expectations. The balance can be a bit tough to strike (and to know when you have it right), but it’s really important for managers to have the skill to handle it. If your manager doesn’t have that skill and isn’t being held accountable for building it, you have a grand-boss problem.

    One thing I’m curious about – how does your management/HR team typically handle underperformance? I suspect their handling of Patti is symptomatic of a “wimp” approach to performance issues in general, and that’s the deeper source of frustration that’s driving folks to leave. Managers who are skilled at setting high but fair standards typically don’t flounder this much when there are additional nuances involved, and my guess is if you trusted your management team to take a reasonable approach to performance issues in general, you’d give more grace/have more trust that they’re doing something to address the Patti situation.

  44. Moose*

    Chiming in to say for LW #1 that sponsors write into contracts what you need to be saying, the time the post needs to go up, and usually, but not always, that posts need to be scheduled ahead of time. If she is sponsored, the social media posts are probably scheduled and not being written on government time.

    In addition, it’s (usually but you should check with HR) not an ethics violation to be participating in a sponsored sport on vacation leave. I know several people who work in government that are internationally competitive tri-athletes with social media presences. They use their vacation time to travel to triathlons and compete. They are sponsored. This is not an ethics violation nor is it seen as using government money to further their own financial benefit. (Honestly sport gear sponsorships usually barely cover the entry fees for the number of events you need to stay competitive not to mention the coaching, equipment, etc. It’s very unlikely Pattie is coming out in the black from doing BMX.)

    Alison is right: treat the flakiness as a separate issue from the BMX.

  45. NotJane*

    For LW4 – I’m a legal assistant for a couple of attorneys and they implemented an end of the day check-in with me and it’s been so helpful!

  46. AC36*

    LW #4 – I’m an assistant with an earlier schedule than my (disorganized) supervisor, so I think I can lend some feedback here. I would say, be mindful of her schedule and tasks on her plate – if something is urgent, get it to her as soon as possible in the day. While you are her supervisor, her schedule is still her schedule, and you don’t know what people have planned after work, whether it be a second job, household and family obligations, appointments, etc.

    Meeting briefly to check in is a good way to communicate though. I wish my supervisor would actively and constructively communicate more. My supervisor seems to bring up tasks 30 minutes before I leave, which I can start, but don’t have time to finish. It then also affects the workflow of the other tasks I was assigned.

  47. OP Letter Writer #1*

    Hey all, LW#1 here. Wanted to follow up based on some of what I’m seeing in the comments!

    1. I honestly was really admiring of Pattie’s BMX skills when we first met. She was open with the whole team about being a part of that community and I thought it was so cool! In some ways, BMX *is* sort of a red herring, but it’s ultimately the reason we have “evidence” of theft of service and remote accommodation violation (there is video of her competing at specific international competitions where the dates coincide with “sick” days and also days she was supposed to be working but was just unreachable). I have had lots of conversations with colleagues that boil down to, if Pattie just did the bare minimum, no one would care about the whole BMX thing! It adds insult to injury when she complains that she doesn’t have time to finish something, but still has time to bike around all day (and post about it).

    2. I wanted to keep the letter on the shorter side, but the problems definitely go beyond absenteeism. She has screamed at colleagues when they (gently!) tried to hold her accountable, lied multiple times to cover up for missed deadlines (unrelated to BMX) and also sold work product that our team developed to a different org that published it under Pattie’s name.

    3. I went back and forth on whether or not to include the reason for accommodation (mental health diagnosis). Please don’t speculate on her diagnosis here. I included it because I am upset how it may reflect on my colleagues who also have MH accommodations who do wonderful work.

    Happy to try to answer more questions on this thread if you have them!

    1. I should really pick a name*

      I think an important takeaway is that the “theft of service” is the least of the issues here. Pattie’s performance is the real issue.

      Even if there was no evidence that she was using sick days for BMX events, she had performance issues and that’s where the focus should be.

      If she was legitimately sick, but exhibiting the behaviours you describe, it would still be a problem.

    2. AC36*

      This is just a multitude of issues that are more ethically-based than relating to a MH diagnosis. Sounds like management needs to handle the situation and act on the major issues – Missed deadlines, lying/misusing sick days based on the proof you mentioned (assuming PTO and sick aren’t just in one pool), the selling of company work (what?!). I hope they are able to resolve this! This is beyond a medical diagnosis. This is an ethical issue!

    3. Strive to Excel*

      Screaming at colleagues and committing what sure sounds like theft of intellectual property are both firing offences, and she should have been called out on her behavior a long time ago.

      As with so many letters here, you are having a management problem as much as a coworker problem.

      1. I should really pick a name*

        “Theft of intellectual property”?
        I believe by “theft of service”, the LW just means that Pattie is using her sick time inappropriately.

          1. I should really pick a name*

            Re-reading a few times and I’m still not seeing that. Would you mind quoting it?

        2. Strive to Excel*

          “And also sold work product that our team developed to a different org that published it under Pattie’s name.” – from OP’s comment above.

          That certainly sounds to me like IP theft.

    4. HonorBox*

      OP, I think you’re lucky to be leaving your manager. This seems like a cesspool of poor behavior enabled by a really poor manager. I understand that in the public sector there can be more steps to fire someone, the fact that your manager is allowing any of this to continue is the problem at Pattie is a symptom. She’s a major and painful symptom, but it seems like your manager just isn’t interested in (or is scared to) taking the steps to move on from her. What you outlined in your letter and reinforced here is that
      *she’s missing deadlines and lying to cover her tracks
      *no-showing when she’s the leader of particular projects
      *unreachable when she is supposed to be working
      *yelling at colleagues
      *stealing company (public) property and selling it to someone
      Accommodation or not, BMX or not, these are all things that a manager – not even a good manager, just a manager – should address with her.

      I don’t think you need to have a conversation with your boss before you leave to provide any sort of advice or guidance for how to proceed. I might instead have a conversation with your boss’s boss. Let her/him know that you and others are leaving because of the Pattie situation and the lack of your boss’s attention to it.

      1. OP Letter Writer #1*

        This is hard to hear, because I really care about my manager, but it’s true that she has been remiss. She had been gifted with really competent self-motivated people who she never *actively* had to manage and has been completely at a loss with what to do with Pattie. That said, I sympathize with my manager here for several reasons:

        1. Pattie is really emotionally manipulative and took turns hoodwinking everyone on the team (lots of unprofessional oversharing about past trauma) and we ALL stuck out our necks for her and made excuses for her at one point or another. If my original letter reads as bitter, that’s probably why!

        2. Manager’s boss (big boss) is truly awful. Someone on my team recently flagged the IP theft issue and big boss went full “blame the messenger” mode, angrily saying that it wasn’t possible to report (??)

        3. While not confirmed, I have reason to believe my Manager went to HR and was shut down. It’s tough situation to have an employee who simply refuses to get work done and HR that just shrugs. It’s hard to imagine myself handling the situation well if I was in her shoes.

        At any rate, it’s definitely the right time for me to leave! Excited about starting fresh :)

    5. Observer*

      I wanted to keep the letter on the shorter side, but the problems definitely go beyond absenteeism. She has screamed at colleagues when they (gently!) tried to hold her accountable, lied multiple times to cover up for missed deadlines (unrelated to BMX) and also sold work product that our team developed to a different org that published it under Pattie’s name.

      Oh, wow! Talk about burying the lede.

      *This* is what you and your manager should be focusing on. The abuse of accommodation and sick leave *is* a problem, but it’s not the only problem, and not even close to being the biggest problem. And you don’t need to do any digging for all of that.

      Just start documenting. And if your boss won’t you all should do it. Each person should document each and every event that affects them. eg Pattie yelled at me when I asked her where her part of the teapot report is. Pattie didn’t show up to the presentation she was supposed to do, and I had to present even though I had never seen the presentation and had no speakers notes. etc.

      Don’t document things that don’t affect you (or the people *you* manage). But if everyone documents what is affecting them, HR can’t claim the you are monitoring stuff that is none of your business but they *will* be presented with reams of evidence about her behavior.

      My sympathies!

      1. OP Letter Writer #1*

        I didn’t realize I was burying the lede! I had assumed that airing all of these issues would make it seem like more of a personal grudge…but I realize now that it’s relevant context.

        I think many of us on the team made the mistake of thinking that a video of Pattie participating in a BMX competition on dates when she was supposed to be working (not using PTO) was “smoking gun” evidence that would definitely get HR to do something! But you’re absolutely right, the only move left is just to strictly document all the ways that she has dropped the ball that directly resulted in us scrambling to fix things. Going to forward any relevant screenshots to my colleagues who have yet to find a new job (but are looking!)

        1. Parakeet*

          Yeah, honestly leaving out the BMX stuff altogether and just talking about all these other problems makes your case look less personal grudge and more compelling. Focusing on the BMX stuff makes all of you look like you’re just at BEC with her, and also a little obsessive for monitoring your coworker’s social media like this. Focusing on accommodations makes you look like the kind of person everyone with accommodations fears, someone looking for reasons that someone else’s accommodations aren’t legit. Talking about taxpayer dollars and “theft of service” makes you sound like the kind of right-winger who complaints every time a government employee or grantee gets anything nice.

          But focusing on all the actual performance issues? Holy moly, there are a lot of them, and some of them are very severe! She’s screaming at people, she’s repeatedly lying, she stole something your team worked on together for her own financial and reputational gain, she’s making it much harder for the rest of the team to do their jobs. That’s the direction to go here.

          1. OP Letter Writer #1*

            Yep, heard. I realize now that I was parroting the language my colleagues use when discussing the Pattie problem. I assumed because I’m “in-group” as a city worker I wouldn’t seem like “that guy”.

            I guess I should be clear that I strongly support worker’s rights and flexible work accommodations! I have an amazing coworker on a MH accommodation that often takes a stroll through the woods in the middle of the day–she produces great work and is a delight to work with. I hope that my letter doesn’t lend credence to the idea that people on MH accommodation are “fakers” (and to be clear, Pattie isn’t faking her diagnosis! she just isn’t doing her job)

    7. Annie*

      About the sick days for competitions I haven’t seen addressed: Is there a (founded or unfounded) fear that planned PTO will get canceled on her at the last minute, and the workaround is to call in sick to ensure work doesn’t prevent participation in the competition?

      Context: Some crappy employers think it’s cool to cancel PTO on employees because “the company needs them right now”.

  48. JustKnope*

    OP1: strongly agree with another commenter’s advice to stop looking at Pattie’s social media accounts. Document the work impacts to your team (ie, when she no-shows presentations and missed deadlines) and share that documentation with your boss. Be specific about how it impacts your ability to do your job. Otherwise, let the rest of it go. It’s not your job to police your coworker’s life. It is your job to make the problems that actually affect you known to your boss / maybe HR.

  49. Dawn*

    How is Pattie “using taxpayer dollars to subsidize her [other] career?” It sounds like she’s using her salary, that she’s earning, that is no longer “taxpayer dollars” once it’s been paid to her.

    Whether she shows up for that job consistently is a different story, but I don’t think you can just accuse someone paid by the government of “using taxpayer dollars” for stuff in their private life that they’re paying for out of their own pocket, whatever the initial source of those funds; that phrase has a specific meaning that involves government misuse.

    1. AliceInSpreadsheetland*

      This annoyed me too! Just posted a separate comment. It’s her salary and PTO, not taxpayer dollars, she should have the same freedom to spend them how she likes the same way any other person has.

    2. Saturday*

      I think the LW just means that the taxpayer dollars that are supposed to be paying her to do her job are instead paying her to do her sports thing, since she’s not really doing her job.

    3. OP Letter Writer #1*

      Hi Dawn,

      I’ll clarify–as city workers, we are paid through tax money. She has a sizable salary, and unfortunately, isn’t getting any work done! You’re totally right that she can use her PTO however she wants. But she isn’t taking vacation time when she goes on these competitions (I’ve verified this with my manager).

      I don’t want to say too much for anonymity, but we are public servants who are supposed to support vulnerable populations–we’re supposed to provide a public service! By not getting her work done, she’s wasting government resources (that theoretically, if not in practice, could be used to pay someone’s salary who actually wants to do this job!)

      1. Dawn*

        I understand that you’re paid through tax money, but once it’s paid to her, it stops being “tax dollars”.

        I get where you’re coming from! But that phrase has a pretty specific and loaded meaning, and it’s probably not one I’d have used here. The fact that she’s – possibly – not working this job to her full potential does not actually equate to her stealing money from taxpayers; if she spent the entire day on the toilet she’d still be paid her salary, and at that point, it’s her money to do with as she pleases; I don’t think that we get to be more or less critical of her actions depending on the source of the funds used to pay her salary, and this in particular feels a little BEC to me.

        Again, I totally get why you feel that way, it’s really, really irritating when a coworker won’t pull their weight.

        1. OP Letter Writer #1*

          Haha I understand–that’s fair! On a personal level, if you were hypothetically blowing off Zuckerberg to spend all day at the beach I’d be like, power to you, spend Big Zuck’s money (though the coworkers definitely wouldn’t feel that way!)

          I think you’re right I shouldn’t have included it. It was meant to emphasize that as city workers I believe we have extra obligation to those we serve (but I see how the phrasing gives BEC vibes!)

          1. Dawn*

            I totally get it! But it’s definitely loaded phrasing, haha.

            If you were having medical troubles causing you to spend extra time in the bathroom, and a coworker who wasn’t aware of the reasons why went public with “OP is using taxpayer money to subsidize their bathroom visits!,” I think you’d be rightfully a little cheesed off that they went there, because it’s definitely a phrase meant to engender a sense of outrage in most cases.

      2. Yes And*

        Thanks for engaging with this comment, OP – I was coming to say something similar. My issue with your “taxpayer dollars” comment is that if she were doing the exact same BMX-influencer activities during her accrued and properly scheduled vacations, there would be absolutely no problem with that. The problem with Pattie is that she appears to be abusing health accommodations, not what she is doing out of the office in the meantime. Just, let’s not muddy the waters. Or, to switch metaphors, let’s keep our eye on the ball.

        1. OP Letter Writer #1*

          Yep, totally agree. I pride myself on helping those I’ve served as a city worker and I think the “taxpayer dollars” was a poor choice and some righteous indignation coming through.

      3. Moose*

        I hear your concerns. However, in every jurisdiction I’ve worked in, “theft of service” has a very specific definition and this doesn’t meet it.

        But also once again, every jurisdiction is different and there are some interesting laws out there. If you truly believe her actions rise to stealing government resources the best place for you to bring those concerns is either your ethics office or legal team, depending on which you have. It’s not really something we can know here in the comments.

  50. Michelle Smith*

    With respect to LW5’s question, are tax documents typically sufficient proof for employers? I have my W2s from old employers, but I wouldn’t be able to produce offer letters or pay stubs going back 10 years.

    1. Coco*

      It depends on exactly what they are trying to confirm. A w2 proves that you worked for an employer, but it doesn’t confirm the dates of employment or the job title.

    2. Dawn*

      I never fail to be amazed that America doesn’t have such a thing as a Record of Employment; it’s law here in Canada that you and they have to receive one every time a job ends, and the government can subsequently pull any of your ROEs for you if it becomes necessary.

      1. The OG Sleepless*

        Wow, I just learned something new! Now I wish the US had this. It seems like it would be pretty easy to implement through the Department of Labor or something. I was just thinking, two of my previous employers are going to retire any minute now, and one has been sold to a corporation that probably didn’t bother to keep old employment records. I don’t really know how I would prove any of my job history except for the most recent W2s.

  51. AliceInSpreadsheetland*

    This sentence bothers me a lot from LW 1- “Infuriatingly, we are city employees, so she’s using taxpayer dollars to subsidize her budding career as a BMX influencer.”
    Unless she’s misappropriating funds from work projects for her personal hobbies, she’s using her salary and compensation, not taxpayer dollars. No one gets a say on what is “appropriate” for government employees to spend their own salaries on, just like with employees for other companies. I don’t think LW meant it that way but the implication really bothers me that because your employer is the government, you have an obligation to spend your salary a certain way or that the public gets to have an opinion on it.

    The rest of LW’s complaints are fully legit! I would be annoyed at a team member who has to lead a huge presentation and then doesn’t show up, and we have reason to believe they weren’t actually sick. But whether it’s because they decided to indulge their hobby of BMX, or pornography, or volunteering at animal shelters doesn’t matter.

    1. AC36*

      I *think* LW meant that they aren’t fulfilling the duties of their job, so, in that sense, by NOT fulfilling their job duties (the more critical component than the ‘abuse of sick leave’) – it feels like theft of taxpayer dollars to give a salary to someone not doing their job. BUT – it’s also the fault of whoever their supervisor is for not managing them properly.

    2. OP Letter Writer #1*

      Hey Alice, I tried to clarify in response to Dawn’s comment above! I don’t know the law well enough to say, but being hired by the government to do a job and then just….not doing it seems like theft of service. You’re right that it’s the “not doing the job” that’s the important thing (BMX or no BMX).

  52. Coin_Operated*

    Not to defend the BMX influencer for the other issues she’s causing, but my sister is an influencer and owner of an outdoor adventure company where she takes groups on backpacking adventures, and almost none of her social media content is “filmed” and posted live. She’s constantly creating and new content from the trips she does, then using that to create her posts and social media work.

  53. Judd*

    For no. 4, I don’t see how that’s reasonable to ask your assistant to “check in” at the same time every day. What would that even look like, an email or IM ping that just says “reminder I’m leaving at 4:30 today like I do every day.”

    What a silly thing to ask of your assistant. OP can set a recurring calendar reminder every day at 4pm if they want.

  54. Wait What*

    For #5, should people get like a letter when they leave a job with their relevant dates and titles?

    My last job was at a huge company, so that’s easy enough for something to contact HR about. But my current job is at a Small Start Up, and I definitely wouldn’t assume they’d still be around 10 years after I’m gone.

    Considering I’ve only ever had 2 companies, it never occurred to me that something other than W2s might be necessary. Even then, I only file those away in case of a tax audit, not because I need to document my work history.
    I figured background checks would take care of finding my tax docs or something like that and the burden of proof was on them.

  55. An Australian in London*

    LW5

    I’m in the UK and I had an agency recently demand details of every job in my whole life, plus all academic results back to and including high school. When I pointed out that I’m a consultant and freelancer and so my “employer” is my own company, they wanted a list of every client I’d ever had, with contact details for each one.

    I’m in my 50s and this was for a senior role.

  56. Statler von Waldorf*

    I disagree pretty strongly with part of Alison’s advice for #5 for my jurisdiction, which is in Canada.

    In Canada, it is rarely in your best interests as an individual to keep any financial records longer than seven years. The reason is simple. If you are audited by the CRA, those old records can be used against you if you keep them. Their absence cannot be used against you.

    This only applies to financial records. I would keep offer letters, letters of reference, and emails for longer. However, I strongly advise that you shred those pay stubs after seven years.

  57. Coverage Associate*

    I haven’t read all the comments, but I haven’t seen the tax payer money issue addressed. I have seen that people would probably be ok with Pattie getting some costs for her hobby reimbursed if it were about vacation time, but sick time is different? Sick time is also part of her compensation. I can imagine illnesses that would prevent her from working her day job but allow her to work an income generating hobby. I don’t see why she shouldn’t be able to work the hobby in those circumstances.

    Examples: Job requires basic standing, walking, reaching, etc., and she has a broken leg but can knit sweaters to sell. As everyone agrees, it’s hard to know what physical activities a mental illness would prevent or recommend.

  58. The Mayon*

    Um, “Infuriatingly, we are city employees, so she’s using taxpayer dollars to subsidize her budding career as a BMX influencer.”

    No. No. No. We don’t get to dictate someone’s life just because they work in government. This is a wild take that I will chalk up to BEC mode for Patty.

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