open thread – October 18, 2024

by Alison Green on October 18, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Bonkers*

    I would love any advice from fellow parents. My kids go to a preschool, and are happy and settled there. The director is… not a kind person, sometimes. She was difficult to deal with when our eldest was struggling with some behavioral issues – very judgy about our home life (for example, made a horrified face when I mentioned that the kids roughhouse with each other sometimes, or that they bathe together). But I can handle that.

    What really bothers me is how she treats the staff members. She’s very condescending, uncompromising, and rude. I’ve overheard her reprimanding teachers with her office door open, for what seem like pretty minor things to me. But what can I do? I hate it, and it makes me uncomfortable, but I don’t feel like it’s my place to intervene in a manager/employee relationship, and recognize that I don’t ever have the full story. Should I bring it up with the regional director, maybe? Or just butt out?

    1. HonorBox*

      I think if you know the regional director, it is a bit easier to say something. Not impossible to say it to a relative stranger, just easier if you know them. But you could just say, “When I’ve been in the building, I’ve overheard some things I probably shouldn’t be overhearing. The director is reprimanding teachers with her office door open. I feel like those conversations might be better with the door shut, just so others aren’t hearing that kind of thing.”

    2. bleh*

      If it’s something you don’t want your children to hear (and thus learn is ok because that’s just how bosses speak to staff members), I would think about intervening. It’s not an example I would want children to follow.

    3. Sally of Locksley*

      If she’s reprimanding direct reports in a way that allows parents to overhear, then that’s certainly something I think you could escalate to the regional director. That in itself is unprofessional, and to me it’s indicative of a leadership style that is far from productive. If I was in your position, I likely would. That said, this isn’t necessarily your battle to fight, so if you don’t feel moved strongly to say something, then I don’t think you have to say something.

    4. Cheshire Cat*

      Ooh, not a good look for someone who works with preschoolers! Does she ever interact with the kids like that? (I hope not!)

      I would use Alison’s advice for dealing with tough management questions at work: talk to some of the other parents and see if anyone else is concerned. And if so, go to the regional director as a group. It will be harder for the regional director to dismiss your concerns that way.

      1. Bonkers*

        She actually teaches my eldest for a few hours each afternoon, in an advanced small group setting. She’s stricter than most teachers, but my daughter really likes her, so I don’t think she crosses any lines with the kids.

        I know some other parents have already gone to the regional director with concerns. As a result, there’s a parent satisfaction survey going around. But get this: it’s being administered via IN PERSON MEETINGS WITH DIRECTOR HERSELF. What a great way to ensure I don’t give you negative feedback.

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          survey via in-person meetings with that director – Yikes!
          I’d tell the regional director that survey will be meaningless and why. Does she know?
          What an absurd way to qurstion parents / service users – such surveys should always be anonymous and private

        2. Cheshire Cat*

          The survey is totally meaningless, then. Definitely take that part to the regional director!

          And I’m glad to hear your director isn’t being rude to the children.

        3. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

          Of all the descriptive bits so far, that in-person set up of the “survey” is to me the most conclusive warning sign. Either she’s remarkably unimaginative about human beings (bit of a problem in itself when you’re running a school) – or she’s set it up that way in order to suppress the information which would mean she had to change her behaviour.

          I think even without the other stuff, you could legitimately express concern higher up the chain about how they’ll get accurate feedback using that method.

    5. Justme, The OG*

      Say something. And I know your kids are happy and settled there, but that’s not an okay environment for them to be in.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        Mentioning that your kids are happy and settled when you do say something might even be helpful. Coming across as a parent who wants to cultivate a good, lasting relationship with the school is a much stronger position than coming off as generally dissatisfied and halfway out the door.

        2. Bonkers*

          Good point! We’re actually a founding family – with the school since the first day they opened the doors, and just started our last kiddo in the infant room, so definitely have roots in the community.

          Honestly, typing that out makes it clear to me that I have to say something. I really love this school, and hate knowing that the caregivers are being treated so poorly.

    6. DietCokeDinosaur*

      I’m a preschool teacher, please please say something to the regional director! This is so unprofessional but unfortunately very common in the preschool world.

    7. used to be a tester*

      Is there a lot of staff turnover? That can be the gateway to a conversation with the regional director: “My kids love Tiny Terrors Daycare, but they’ve had 57 new caregivers in the time they’ve been here. I’ve noticed that Director is often unpleasant to staff – I suspect that might be a big factor in the number of staff that leave. I’m hoping you can look into that. Current Caregiver is amazing and we’d hate to see her go too”.

      1. Bonkers*

        Thanks – that is a good entry point, since it gives me some standing in the matter, beyond just feeling icky.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Although massive turnover is pretty common in preschools even if the director were awesome, so even if it’s the main driver here…it may not actually be making a difference in the frequency.

    8. Unkempt Flatware*

      I’m someone who speaks up in the moment when I see this kind of thing happen. I have told managers at restaurants that they owe their employee an apology and the guests who witnessed the “dressing down”. And I hold them to it and make it happen in front of me. I used to live in a resort community where the number of workers far outnumbered the available jobs so the bosses, owners, managers of all the establishments got very comfortable with abusing their employees, even in front of customers. I address it in the moment and out loud.

      I’d remove my child from this place. Children will learn to either be mean or be afraid.

    9. Dandylions*

      I disagree it’s not your place to speak up. I’ve definitely called regional managers at restaurants when I’ve heard managers screaming at staff.

      Screaming is not ok. And if I can hear the screaming as a customer even worse!

      1. Bonkers*

        No screaming involved here, thankfully. Just condescension and rudeness. I know she’s made both parents and staff cry, though, so… still not good.

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          Definitely not good. Been there, done that with my daughter’s preschool director who once brought me to tears during a conversation and then told me I needed to behave more professionally. PLEASE say something. The attitude definitely trickles down to the kids and they are far more aware than we think they are – when my kid was in HS I heard a lot more from her about the politics of the preschool than I had recognized as the time.

          I was frustrated for a long time that the administration wasn’t doing anything about our complaints. When the woman was finally fired (and walked out in the middle of the school day) the facility director told me that our concerns were part of the case they built to fire her. Please say something.

    10. Liz K*

      If I was walking past and heard that, I might in the moment pop my head in and say, “I’m going to close the door for you, this seems like a private conversation, not for kids and parents.”

    11. ReallyBadPerson*

      I am as concerned about her judgy face when you mentioned your kids rough housing as I am with her treatment of her staff. Please say something.

    12. Hyaline*

      Say something, but also—I know your kids are happy and settled, but it may be worth looking into a switch on YOUR terms and timing. I’d check out other options and really consider a move to a different school at a natural break (like after winter or summer school break). If she’s openly demeaning to parents I don’t want to think about how she is with employees and students. (My eldest went to a preschool I had similar frustration with, and I wish we had switched.)

  2. Alternative views*

    Soooo…..
    I read the post yesterday on “When terrible work systems become sacred” and am feeling … annoyed. Yes, there were some great stories. But external judgement of “terrible work systems” is sometimes flawed. The expectation that all systems and processes work for all people and all work the same way is incorrect.

    So my question to you is: What are you holding onto that others probably think falls into the “terrible & sacred” category but which is fundamental to your work?

    Just to be clear:
    -I acknowledge that many of us work with outdated systems that we are stuck with due to lack of funding or staff to update.
    -And there are absolutely times when an antiquated process is stupid and should be retired.
    -And there are absolutely people who won’t let go of previous processes that should be updated.
    -And yes, damnit, by and large one should only print things that need it.

    However:
    I’m utterly tired of having someone else foist something off on me as newest-and-latest that breaks what I do, or slows it down (forever), or adds six unnecessary steps to my life or where I have to explain, again, why what you suggest will. not. work. I think some people hold onto things too long because when the newly-suggested thing was bleeding edge and really wouldn’t have been a good choice, no one listened or heard them. I am not a luddite, and am happy to adjust to new things when what is suggested will actually help me or even the larger organization. But new isn’t necessarily good. And by the time the new has mellowed from bleeding edge through cutting edge to just… normal, folks assume I’m agin’ it. Nope. Just waiting for it to be sufficiently useful rather than buggy or problematic. I’m all about using things that are the best option for the task – but sometimes that is old school.

    Let’s take Teams as an example. When my organization wanted us to all start using it on our ancient computers, it used so much bandwidth that you couldn’t tell if what you were doing was actually working or just looked like it on your own machine. So much lost work. The IDEA of teams is great. The actual software – not so much.

    Another example: In our warehouse-like work, outsiders bemoan my need to print off a spreadsheet to check things on the shelf. Why do I do this? Because there are about 6 levels of things in the inventory program that I need to check against the item on the shelf and it is much easier to have all 6 things x 50 items at a time lined up on a single piece of paper rather than to have to move up and down the layers of the program electronically while standing at the shelf dealing with any single item. I need and use the software to do other things, but it is NOT good at the shelf. In other words, The BEST CURRENT TECHNOLOGY for working at the shelf for me and my job is … paper.

    Boy, that really ticks some people off, especially the IT folks. They also hate that I pause the automatic back-up software on my machine at the beginning of every day (don’t worry, I update at the end of the day). Why? Because I am constantly downloading the results of searches in the inventory software to my desktop to work with – and all the downloads have the same name. So all day long, I would get queries about “do you want to update {name of file}?” I do not want to answer that 50 times a day, especially when it’s an ephemeral file.

    So… what are your adjustments to the norm that others don’t get? What’s your terrible &/or sacred?

    1. Tio*

      Your teams example really sounds like more of a computer issue than a teams issue… I’ve been using teams for a long time and never had issues like that. Once in a blue moon it will glitch and there will be a delay but it’s never been anything serious.

      1. Pretty as a Princess*

        Yeah, that’s a problem with *rolling out the modern tool on outdated infrastructure*, not with Teams.

        1. But what to call me?*

          I think that’s OP’s point, though. They were expected to jump right into using Teams before the necessary hardware was in place to make using Teams practical for them, then were treated like they were resistant to technology just because the technology as it was at the time actually made their job harder, not easier.

        2. Reluctant Mezzo*

          I remember the time they tried to install Office 365 on a Windows XP computer. It destroyed the hard drive. Fortunately I had backed up the important personal stuff fairly recently before then.

      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        I swear the first version of teams used to use more bandwidth or memory. We used to turn it off because our laptops would get hot and the fans would be running constantly.

    2. Tundra dweller*

      I hear ya. A lot of, “Everyone wants to stick with the current system just because it works and is cheap. Shouldn’t we buy this new expensive system that might also work but we haven’t tested yet?”

    3. Angstrom*

      Excellent point on the utility of printouts. You can have high information density without having to scroll or zoom. In the case you mentioned, it sounds like the electronic version could be optimized for your use, but hasn’t been.
      Paper maps are another example. I love the power of electronic mapping tools, but for a combination of details and a big picture there’s nothing like spreading out a big printed map. Not having to scroll gives you a much better sense of where things are relative to each other.

      1. Spacewoman Spiff*

        Yeah, when I worked in a library we would use paper printouts when locating books in the stacks for holds. It wasn’t a perfect system (one staff member always ignored our practice of checking whether someone was already pulling holds, and mass annoyance would ensue when someone realized they were pulling holds someone else had just located on their own list, printed 20 minutes earlier) but it worked pretty well, easy to carry the paper around and scan the shelves.

        Then we tested a new system where we carried ipads around with the hold lists. You could check off each book as you pulled it, so in theory this list would always be up-to-date for everyone and no more doubling up…except that we found they didn’t actually update right away, so anyone pulling holds had to coordinate which sections they’d work. It was hard to sort the list in a way that made sense for our library’s layout. The ipads were heavy, and having to carry the ipad in one hand slowed down the whole process. There were also limits on who could log in to the ipad, so volunteers and certain staff members (who only pulled holds) couldn’t use them. In theory it sounded like a big improvement and I’m sure someone was excited to have come up with this solution, and maybe one day it will be…but the old way was definitely better and I was so relieved when the ipad pilot was over.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          Archives here: We use a . . . basically a clearinghouse program that allows us to upload all of our inventories, photographs, etc., into one searchable place. Mostly it’s awesome.

          But it has a clipboard function where, if you’re looking for (we’ll say photographs of pediatricians from the 1950s) you can create a clipboard. Only I–and I am not alone in this among my coworkers–find the clipboard function maddeningly un-intuitive and hard to re-access or alter after it’s been created. It’s MUCH easier for me to copy and paste the location information into Word, print that out, and go find the boxes I need.

        3. But what to call me?*

          I worked on a team that did early childhood special education evaluations until last year. Department leadership just could not grasp why we wouldn’t get on board with the exiting new iPad version of the main developmental assessment tool we used, instead of our usual 3 page printed sheet with space in the margins to scribble notes and take language samples. It was incomprehensible to them that not only would the iPad version remove our ability to write the notes that made up the bulk of the evaluation and report, but that it would require us to carry iPads around while chasing around 2-4 year olds, many of whom were much more interested in iPads than in anything these weird new adults might want them to do. It works for the high schoolers so why shouldn’t it work for the 2 year olds?

          Leadership did tend to think our team was resistant to change, but that’s because every single change they made or tried to make was developed without considering the unusual circumstances of our team’s role so we were always having to do massive troubleshooting any time they implemented anything. The worst was when someone outside our team had to go to leadership about a change in the distribution of job duties that, as we predicted, massively overworked a new employee who was shared between our team and theirs. We did all we could to help her with our side of things but it wasn’t until this poor young woman broke down crying in one of the other team’s meetings that leadership let things go back to the much more practical way they were before. They wouldn’t listen to us, and as a new grad who needed the approval of the person whose great idea this was for licensure she couldn’t risk speaking up for herself, which we suspected was why they threw a new grad into the role in the first place. So yes, we became very resistant to change when they wouldn’t even believe us about basic things like “five of us have done this task for years and we’re all telling you it takes orders of magnitude longer than you think it does.” Or about how toddlers work.

      2. Bruce*

        When I have to check 128 switches on a test board you bet I’m printing the list out, I’ll do it on an 11 x 17 sheet too!

    4. ThatGirl*

      The problem with Teams is not Teams, it’s that your computer can’t handle it. Which is a management problem, if they won’t update/replace your hardware. Same thing with the backup software.

      If you need a paper printout for some things, no problem there. Just do your job and ignore the haters. But if not having Teams installed is preventing you from, say, connecting with your coworkers easily then you need updated hardware to do that.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Sometimes this is an industry problem though. If you work in a field like government or education, not only is there is no money but there’s a culture of scoffing at spending money and protecting the pockets of the tax payer. Unfortunately, even though there’s only X free in the budget for whatever tool employees will use to do Y job, they’re much keener on getting the cheaper app or software, than on paying for the expensive structure to support it. This way leaders can claim to be cutting edge while economising all at the same time! I agree with Alternative Views that pen and paper is truly better in that situation; no matter how much I love technology and how much easier it can make my job.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Oh, sure, I’m not saying there’s always an easy fix. Just that the problem isn’t the software.

        2. But what to call me?*

          This was the problem when they wanted our team to prove we were working the whole time we were supposed to be working from home by always showing as ‘available’ on Teams. That’s fine and all, but if the district is too cheap to get us new computers that can handle being logged into Teams and doing our actual work at the same time then you’re going to get lots of Teams availability but no work accomplished. Eventually they did somehow scrounge up the money for new computers, though we were backing person by then.

      1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

        I nearly spit out my coffee just now. I can’t imagine there is more than one major PNW university switching to Workday… And having absolutely zero issues with it at all! :D :D :D :D :D :D

        1. Consonance*

          I have to say I blame how Workday was implemented more than I blame Workday as a product. I’ve used Workday at other institutions without a problem. But here? It took them two weeks after I started to give me my account.

      2. anonymous higher ed person*

        We have that on the East Coast, too! Our institution installed Workday a year ago, it was “going to solve all our problems!!!!”

        Never believe that from IT, lol. They’re still finishing some parts of it that were never done, oof.

        2. A Significant Tree*

          Workday is the WORST. I cringed when I saw that one of our local hospital chains had posters all over announcing the upcoming shift to Workday.

          You’d think with all this business that Workday would invest in some quality UI and UX people, but as that costs money and they’re making sales even with the atrocious user interfaces that they already have, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

          1. Rocky Mountain (not) High*

            If you think Workday is bad, you should take a gander at Ceridian Dayforce. Actually, don’t. I wouldn’t wish that piece of crap on anyone. It is the single worst piece of “technology” I’ve ever had the displeasure of dealing with. And it’s not even cheap!

        3. HRIS*

          Workday is my sacred terrible work system lol. There is so much that probably seems terrible to outsiders, and the reason is because of pivotal decisions made by the implementation team, and then bandaids slapped on by stressed HRIS analysts in following years. Now you want something simple and easy, and I know how to give it to you, but first I have to remove the bandaids and replace them in ways that will annoy others. Really what I want to do is reset the bone, but nobody will pay for that…

          It definitely frustrates me when people claim Workday is “soooo confusing and hard to use” and I’m like, you are struggling with clicking submit in your inbox. You have no idea what “confusing” looks like!!

    6. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I think you are looking at this backward. You’ve created work arounds to increase productivity for software that is flawed. I’m not criticizing your spreadsheet, I’m criticizing the need to go to six different places. I’m not criticizing your backup work around, I’m criticizing the naming convention failure in the program.
      So the question is: If your management came to you and said that they are migrating to a more robust software that will eliminate you having to use your work arounds, would you be cautiously happy or would you be angry that you have to change?

      1. HigherEdEscapee*

        THIS. I was just having basically this conversation with someone who is temporarily reporting to me. Her workarounds are causing problems for other users of a database. The database itself is absolutely garbage and it needs to be replaced, and shortly will be. Until then, we need to talk about workarounds that don’t muck up using the data for others while still allowing us to do our jobs.

      2. But what to call me?*

        That probably depends on whether the new software actually solved the problem and whether management had enough of a history of understanding what the problem even was to believe them when they said it would.

    7. Bast*

      I’m not sure this necessarily fits, but I had a boss who was constantly fixing things that were not broken, for a system she did not even use. She did not–and could not– understand how her edits and changing things did not make sense for the people using it, as she herself did not use it, and complicated things unnecessarily because people would forget which version we were currently operating under. Most of this was from a purely organizational standpoint, so we’d spend needless amounts of time trying to classify documents so she didn’t bring it up during a meeting. For example, she might decide that when saving documents electronically, that we needed to categorize Letter Type A about Llama Grooming Techniques under “Letters.” Sure, this makes sense, let’s go with that. Then, 4 months later, she’d decide that we should code it under “Letters re: Llamas.” More specific, but fine. Then another few months — same letter would be categorized as “Letters re: Grooming.” Well, now you have 3 possible categories that all make somewhat sense, and it would be hard to remember which one was currently the “in” category. If you didn’t remember, you’d get scolded during a meeting. Then you’d have something similar, but not the same — say “Letter Type B re: Llama Grooming Supplies.” At some points, those would be incorporated into the same categories as the Llama Grooming Techniques letters, until she’d decide that Type B also needed its own 20 different categories. IMO it would have been significantly less confusing to leave it as the generic “Letters” category. You’d NEVER be able to categorize every single different letter type that we got, and it was a waste of time — and confusing– to try. We had meetings upon meetings about this and it never improved.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        My team grew really rapidly and everyone of course has their own filenaming and storage habits or logic. I created a “How We Work” document to use in onboarding. We worked through each section of it to establish some norms. It covers a variety of communication channels. We needed to get a handle on things like items going into Teams chat that would disappear, what to put in email so we’d be able to find it later, etc.

        Fortunately we have some really systematic thinkers who were willing to take on the folder management to establish an approach. How to name and store files isn’t yet perfect and we need to revisit that section, but all in all I think it’s working pretty well. (Coworkers I know are here occasionally may recognize this and have different thoughts, in which case let’s get it on the next staff meeting agenda!)

      2. Sharon*

        Database brain is a rare and underappreciated skill. There are plenty of people who can create or use databases or other tech tools, but there is so much skill needed to design the right input fields and the right content formats so that people use them consistently and they produce meaningful outputs.

    8. Cheshire Cat*

      At my company, we used to have a local shared drive where we stored our non-ephemeral files. We frequently found that a given file needed to be available in different file directories, and it was easy to create shortcuts from the original file to all of the other places it needed to be. (This often happened if people from 2 or more departments needed to use a file; it would be stored in the directory of whichever department created and maintained it, but someone in another department could add a shortcut in their own directory.) Our shared drive was also pretty easy to search.

      Then we moved to Sharepoint. We were encouraged to move everything over to it from our local drive. Sharepoint is not as easy to search; it is also much harder to create shortcuts to files, so (especially at first) we ended up with multiple copies of the same file in different places, and reconciling them was a nightmare. And then we found out, after a year or so, that our space was more limited, and we’ve had to move files back to our local shared drive.

    9. Part time lab tech*

      Checking off paper printouts. We have just changed databases and it had to happen. I was looking forward to being able to have one computer but my job has just become ridiculously clunky. I suspect I will be using paper printouts to reduce the amount of clicking between tables and two databases I will need to do. And I want my shortcut keys back too.

    10. CubeFarmer*

      I hate Teams so much. It never works like it’s supposed to for me. I will gladly send out a Zoom like just so we never have to use Teams.

      1. Who_Is_Dat_Is*

        We’re definitely opposites. I hate Zoom links and always seem to have technical difficulties with it!

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I use both and definitely have more problems with Teams. And Zoom is much more intuitive. And the display is more attractive.

          Teams definitely has some advantages in terms of document sharing and updating, but it tends to be glitchier.

      2. Parakeet*

        This. My previous workplace used Teams and I’m so glad that my current one uses Zoom. Of all the videoconferencing software that I’ve used, Teams is the worst (enormous bandwidth and RAM hog). Meet is annoying because virtual backgrounds don’t work for me and because I don’t like having to log into a Google account just to have a meeting. All the others I’ve used are basically fine.

    11. ThursdaysGeek*

      Years ago I worked at a corporate farm, and the IT people above me wanted to put in a time tracking system so the people working would input what they were doing at any specific time. It would be great! They’d be able to see how much each person was doing, what they were doing, what tasks took too long – all sorts of information.

      I was the face of IT when I went to a location, where a manager pointed out why all that tracking would not work. She pulled a paper timecard from the wall, and showed me the lipstick kiss on it, but no name. She said, “this employee can’t write her name, so she kisses her timecard to identify it. There is no way she is going to be able to use a computer and input times and information on what she is working on.”

      Yup. The newfangled idea was never implemented, at least not while I was there.

      2. Not That Kind of Doctor*

        My workplace is always chasing its tail on time tracking (we don’t bill by time). It will never be accurate enough to get the data we want out of it because it takes so much time to get it set up to track accurately.

    12. Frosty*

      I work for a level of government and my department keeps paper records of everything as well as electronic records. There are by-laws in place for how long we keep official types of documents but lots of things do not need to exist in paper AND electronic.

      Every time there is a new development or someone comes up with a way to streamline a process, it ends up being MORE work because it doesn’t replace an old system, only adds an additional process.

      A lot is because we are working on a shoestring budget and management doesn’t have time (or doesn’t take time) to learn how the new systems replace (not augment) and then they say “well… keep doing it the old way too ‘just in case'” when that is completely unnecessary.

      An example – a few years ago an electronic system was implemented to track certain types of interactions with staff and the public. In theory, this should have reduced the amount of paper in the office, but then people decided they should track electronically AND print the electronic record “just in case” so it increased the amount of paper.

      This makes me feel insane, as someone that has to deal with files (both electronic and paper).

    13. Quinalla*

      I’m with you on appropriate use of paper print outs. I don’t use them without thought, but I too use paper in similar situations when it legitimately makes things easier/faster. I consider myself flexible because of that, not outdated. I think it is strange when folks won’t use all tools available to them – including old ones if they are most effective – but I will also scratch my head when folks won’t use the newest tools either.

      As far as folks wanting you to use newer software that is actually NOT better and may be missing key things you need, agreed again. I am always up for trying new things myself (not everyone is), but I will give candid feedback and if functionality is missing or things take significantly longer for no additional benefit, I’m going to speak up and recommend we not “upgrade” until issues are resolved. Luckily, folks at my company are very on board. When we upgrade things, we make them at least as good as what we had before at a minimum and there should be actual improvements too where possible. IF a process needs to be slower for a reason, that reason needs to be communicated clearly.

    14. kalli*

      Half of my job is to keep a list of our files and their status… in excel.

      We can have our software do current status, but it can’t spit out a list of all hearing dates this week or all matters for a particular referral source and where they’re up to, so they pay me to manually update this behemoth of an excel document every time someone gets an email with an appointment date, a file changes status, a file closes, etc.

      I’m meant to get ccd on all incoming mail so I can do this but people forget or turn off the plugin because it crashes Outlook and then don’t turn it back on, so I also have to manually open every single current file every 2 months or so and figure out its status to update the spreadsheet.

      If I think about it it really feels like busywork for the disabled chick, but apparently it’s very useful for the principals and they thanked me for it in the last staff meeting – after they were told I was doing it, because they thought that people just updated their own files…

    15. Strive to Excel*

      I hate OneDrive, the Cloud, and all of its works with a fiery passion, and I actively pause/throttle OneDrive’s sync. I’m a laptop user, and frequently work where wifi is spotty. When that’s the case I want my files accessible to me in local storage. If it’s a file I don’t need that often, it needs to be living on the shared server, or in our client management system, not on my C drive and not in my cloud.

      FWIW I don’t think anyone on yesterday’s thread was in support of “change for change’s sake” – you just got a lot of old processes that are terrible because it was a thread about objectively terrible old processes!

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        At my last job I was at for years, when we started using the “cloud,” stuff would go missing. And lots of saved links/documents would disappear/document not found. Not sure why saving stuff on shared drives needed to be improved upon…

      2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        The cloud is not the problem. OneDrive is the problem. I’ve never had problems with Google Docs or Google Drive. (And don’t get me started on Microsoft deciding to disable autosave for local storage!)

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          The little shorthand page that comes up when I open up Excel or Word doesn’t show any of the files on my OneDrive, so I end up saving them on my machine…sigh.

    16. Mockingjay*

      Not so much an adjustment to a new norm, but a realization that:

      *The people who buy the systems don’t use the systems.

      It’s easy to recognize business workflow issue(s) that could be solved by purchasing a new but fairly basic workhorse program or by using what you have more effectively. Getting The Powers That Be to purchase what is needed – not wanted – is a different problem. Because they will be dazzled by sales pitches and demos of Innovative Features For Collaboration, Bringing Synergy!

      MS Teams is a perfect example. We already used MS Office and SharePoint, and Cisco WebEx for online meetings. The only thing we didn’t have was a chat program. But now we have O365 and TEAMS! We moved all the files (not that many) from SharePoint on the server to SharePoint in the Cloud! We have dedicated TEAMS! channels. Okay, that’s what the SharePoint site already was. My team has a duplicate chat that we can’t get rid of. Oh, and we still have WebEx, because Teams can’t handle the quarterly town hall chats with company leadership when 250 people log in.

      I gave up trying to convince leadership to use what we already had with a few modifications that IT could implement.

      1. ScruffyInternHerder*

        *The people who buy the systems don’t use the systems.

        Bingo.

        Someone up the tree is all about “all digital world as we move forward”, without giving thought to the possible reasons that my department prefers paper construction documents. The large ones. If you’re thinking that the person up the tree who’s beating this drum has never used a full size E1 (30″ x 42″ sheets) in their day-to-day, you’d be correct. You want all digital in my line of work, you need to provide multiple huge screens and the appropriate number so that different sheets can be compared, scaled from, and reviewed in real time…or you accept multi million dollar mistakes. We physically don’t have the space for the multiple huge screens needed, so we use paper (and quite honestly its EASIER). I’m waiting for the complaints from on-high to start.

      2. Alternative Person*

        This was my old job. Head Office moved a lot of work to Office 365, put in a lot of security, disabled a bunch of functions and insisted a lot of file storage moved to Teams and or the cloud.

        The thing was, they didn’t interact with most of the systems, or at least not in the way a lot of on-the-ground staff did. Disabling say, copy/paste might have been fine for them, but a big problem for us.

        Unsurprisingly, it made the whole enterprise less secure because people started using workarounds to get their jobs done.

    17. Beka Cooper*

      I agree there needs to be a balance. I’m in one department of a university where there are a TON of different systems for different pieces of the work. Some of them talk to each other, some don’t. There are a lot of complex processes happening, and there are a couple of things I think could be implemented to eliminate one of the spreadsheets I use, but it’s shared, and I want to work in the current system for a while to understand all the ways it’s used before majorly changing it. And I feel like it can take a whole academic year to fully understand a lot of the processes.

      My supervisor was hired at the same time as me and wants to streamline things, which I think is good! But some of the complaints he has are not resolvable in anything like an ideal way, because we have to work within the constraints of the entire university system.

      Also, I’ve been through a few rounds of changes where certain things get dropped because people automatically dismiss them as not useful, and then later on you get the angry students or their advisors wondering why some key step hasn’t happened. I left my previous position and then later came back part-time, and at one point discovered that in my absence, it had been decided a certain type of document that was occasionally mailed to us could just be tossed and shredded because they believed we also received it electronically. Then a student was trying to figure out why that piece of their record wasn’t getting updated and they couldn’t graduate.

    18. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

      We switched to Teams from Slack earlier this year and generally it’s fine, but on Slack we had a channel that notified us of new or updated Jira tickets and I LOVED it.
      Alas, if it can be done in Teams, it has not.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        FWIW, it can be done—Atlassia has an integration for it. We have it at my workplace. So it might be worth asking about whether that can be implemented!

    19. RedinSC*

      I get it, sometimes change is just that, change. But when every department BUT personnel will accept Docusign, I think it’s that department that’s holding up things and not adapting to new technology.

      But for reviewing grants, proposals and other things, I still print them out and read on paper, because I don’t like reading 18 page documents on line. THat is seen as antiquated and somewhat counter to our “paperless” office culture. So, yes, your checklist on paper is the best way for you to do your checking, so keep doing that.

    20. JustaTech*

      Paper. Specifically that in the lab we used to use a lot of paper, and still use some now. This is because we only just got an electronic lab notebook system 3 years ago, and we only all got laptops about 5 years ago, and honestly I hate hate hate taking the laptop that lives on my desk where I eat my lunch into the lab with blood. That’s gross.

      So we used paper protocols, and then later transferred most of the data to spreadsheets for analysis – but there were always some parts of the data that were hard-copy (recording weights, for example).
      And then there are the lab notebooks, which are regulated documents that must be kept and maintained for Intellectual Property reasons.
      My team was happy to archive most of the old stuff we were done with, but we need some place to keep the project data we are still working on.
      But when our office was renovated the person driving the design worked in a different department that had gone mostly paper-free. So we got no bookcases for our lab books and data binders.
      Yes, I wish everything was digital, except for the whole water and electronics thing, but it isn’t and wishing won’t make it all go away.

    21. physics lab*

      I agree, when my old university dropped the old registration system, banner web, for workday I started screaming, and have not stopped since.

    22. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m in biotech – on the tech end. Everywhere I’ve worked, anyone whose job involves keeping the lab instruments working is ferociously territorial about letting IT go anywhere near their stuff. And of course, IT is always mad. You need regular updates, it’s a security risk! We need all computers to have the same configuration, we can’t support all these custom setups!

      Look, I get it. But this instrument is older than half the IT department, and replacing it would cost money we don’t have. The software and drivers work on this specific release of Windows 95, but they haven’t been tested on anything else, and they haven’t been updated since. NO TOUCHY.

      At my last job, IT declared that any computer connected to the network must also receive the auto-updates pushed by IT. This wasn’t my first rodeo, so…for the aging behemoth that I knew we couldn’t replace, I hid the real computer in a cabinet, leaving a spare in plain view as IT bait. There was a second copy of the same machine, managed by others. About six months later, IT pushed an update which released the magic smoke; the other machine was damaged beyond repair. It was a $500K piece of modern art. Told you so…

      This isn’t a one-off, either. The most recent Windows update breaks the instrument I currently work on. We’re trying to fix it. Fortunately it’s at the software level; the hardware will be OK. But I know…out there in the world, at every place our instruments live, there’s either an annoyed hardware person who is hassling IT to get the computer re-imaged with an older version of Windows, or there’s an annoyed IT person who wants to know why the auto-updates got blocked (of course we told our customers what was happening).

      1. Physics Lab Tech*

        That’s 100% true! At one of my jobs we were so paranoid about updates we had one computer disconnected from everything but our instrument, and that one was never allowed to be turned off // updated. Then that was connected to a second computer that was connected to the internet that the students were allowed to use — but nothing they could do on the second computer would do anything that could break down the first.

        But like, if that first computer failed we could quench the NMR system aka cause a large explosion on campus.

    23. Pi314*

      My company recently switched to a new software for hiring and recruiting, so it was where all jobs got posted, resumes got uploaded, and where employees who were on interview panels uploaded their feedback. It was universally hated and they ended up switching back to the old system after only a few months– this is a company that LOVES to push through dysfunction and rarely admits fault like that so it was a big deal. They had been talking up the new software by proclaiming it would reduce bias in the hiring process, which is a great goal, but it did that by 1) automatically screening resumes in an opaque and nonsensical way that resulted in the wrong people getting through and 2) directing us to ask exactly the same questions of every interview candidate, without allowing for any nuance, follow up questions, etc. It was a mess.

    24. Fluff*

      During Helene, our hospital lost power (did have a our back up generators) and water. We also lost ALL contact to the outside world. We also could not call internally except via the intercom, and after a few hours even texting SMS went down. We were creative: running up to the roof to text via satellite, scheduled “text dates”, the Beacons of Gondor, big dry erase boards, short announcement codes for the intercom, etc.

      The other hospitals in our state system knew something was up, but not the severity. We were all on the same systems – records, servers, phone systems, etc. To them, the systems were all working because Helene did not cause a typical downtime. The systems were working fine. It was our hospital that seemed to just Dr. Who itself out of time.

      The sacred work flows simply did not exist any more. We found:

      1. Paper and dry erase boards ruled. Clipboards, pens, paper folders.
      2. Work rules to be consistent no matter the medium. Slow things down and schedule- X person is in charge of dry erase board for census, Y is in charge of verifying person to bed, runner for paper orders to lab, etc. Organized files, input and output and all physically present.

      The skills of working @ the norm became immensely valuable. Those skills let us pivot quickly and help folks who struggled. They struggled in part because they did not have to work around the norm.

      That is part of my job that I both love and ack – want to pull my hairs out one by one – is finding ways to adjust workflows for a variety of brains and still get to the same destination. I work in medical informatics. AND I love my pen, paper and funky work flows too.

      I knew one day the Pen would truly be mightier than the tech.

  3. Spero*

    What sites are people using to post jobs now? I just found out Indeed now makes you either receive texts or use a mobile app to receive applications – there is no option to opt out for businesses that do not provide their employees with a work mobile and no option to use a business landline for verification. I’m not willing to download an app on my personal phone or link it to my business account, so that’s out.

    1. amoeba*

      Pretty much everything is on LinkedIn in my field! For me, it’s just this and then maybe the company websites themselves, for the big players in the region – there’s only like 3, 4 big companies that have jobs that might interest me here, so easy enough to check manually.

      1. KitKat*

        Seconding – everything in my field is on LinkedIn. And, as far as I know, every company in my field uses Greenhouse to manage postings and applications behind the scenes.

    2. LingNerd*

      It depends on what kinds of jobs. Linkedin is mostly where I look, but I’m an office worker doing work that is not at all niche and is well above entry level responsibilities. What kind of roles are you hiring for? And are you in a niche industry where you might want to post on industry-specific job boards, or hiring for roles that require very specific training that would appeal to people at relevant technical schools?

    3. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      LinkedIn is really terrific. The best part is that recruiter mode will allow you to create a resume in a not-gross format from someone’s profile. Obviously (usually) someone’s personally formatted/curated resume is preferred, but it’s a really handy tool in a pinch (which I’ve used, for example, for existing employees where I need to make a salary adjustment, for example.)

    4. Nicosloanica*

      I’m seeing this more and more and more, unfortunately. Almost all of our work systems now require 2factor and most of them want you to download their propriety app on a smartphone to do it (looking at you, Salesforce). They say it’s more secure, and I agree two-factor is more secure, but specifically require a smart phone is, in my opinion, more of a data grab. Think how much more they can learn now that they have cell phones, especially an app that as a matter of course records waaay more info than most people realize. I don’t have the solution for this, me protesting that I don’t want these things on my personal cell phone is just increasingly marking me as a luddite.

      1. Tech Industry Refugee*

        Salesforce I have a true love-hate relationship. I have to use that gosh darn authenticator app like 20 times/day…

      2. anonymous higher ed person*

        I have a cheap burner phone on a cheap prepay plan explicitly for this purpose, and to have a different number when I have to share it with stores, etc.

    5. Stuart Foote*

      Indeed is useless now. For all the flack LinkedIn gets (much deserved), the job posts interface is pretty good and easy to find relevant info.

      Indeed seems to be all entry level jobs, and a big percentage of those seem like sketchy companies.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      I was discussing someone’s job hunt today and this came up; they said they check out postings on Indeed, but instead of applying there, they then go straight to the company’s website to apply. They’re very leery of false job postings on that website for their field, amongst the other issues.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Our HR handles posting on Indeed. We also post on LinkedIn on our organization’s profile, and direct people from there to our careers website to apply. I also post on the job boards of industry professional organizations, which I’m pretty sure is where we get the most interest.

    8. Always Tired*

      We use LinkedIn and ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter gets me more hits for field and entry level roles, and LinkedIn I get better candidates for office and supervisory roles.

  4. SleepyHollow*

    This is gonna be lightly venty, but also advice seeking before I go insane.

    I work in a technical field. We recently hired an office admin who I’m helping get settled, but who I don’t manage. The person has many years of recent experience as an admin in various fields and the job posting was very clearly administrative. However they also have some technical experience in a tangentially related field, but that experience was 25+ years ago.

    They’ve been here a couple of months and it seems like almost any time we talk she brings up how they used to do things at her old job. Like I get the feeling that she thinks she is a subject matter expert in a role/topic that she has not been hired for, that she had at best tangential experience with many many years ago. She frequently offers unsolicited opinions/advice that’s not relevant to how we operate or our product. There is also a kind of condescending tone with the comments like “oh… well back at my old job we did *this* and I was very skilled at it”

    Mostly we’ve all just kind of politely listened, nodded, and moved on in hopes she gets the point, but I’m going slowly insane. She’s recently started asking to spend more time with the technical team which is not relevant to her job. Thankfully her manager shut it down, but she still kind of hints at it.

    I’m reaching the end of my rope. At first I thought it was just new job jitters and she’d get over it but it’s still happening.

    1. MsM*

      Honestly, I wonder if it wouldn’t be helpful to sit her down with a designated tech representative so they can explain once and for all “these are the things that are actually relevant to your job; this is why we do them this way; for everything else, we’re just going to need you to trust us that we’ve got it handled.”

      Then again, there’s a decent chance she’ll take that as a sign you actually want her input, so I think you may just need to be a bit more forthright in shutting them down: “Well, here we do it this way, and it works for us. Moving on now.”

      1. Tio*

        I would really say that’s more of a convo for her manager, and it sounds like she did that already. Might be time for another direct convo with her manager about the pattern

    3. FashionablyEvil*

      A couple of options: “Mm, okay. That’s not how we do it here.” Or, name it: “You’ve commented a number of times about how you did things at your old job. We have established processes here that we’re happy with. Could you please dial those comments back?”

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I was also thinking if the one with the employee who came in from a leadership position to an individual contributor position, but did things like review and comment on coworker’s output. The OP had to show her an org chart to get it through her head that 25 years in the field did not make her Senior Llama groomer here. I wonder if this woman thinks her admin job is a foot in the door to a career in the field.

    5. HugeTractsofLand*

      Maybe a light “Yeah, that’s not really relevant to how we do things here. I think our tech team’s got it.”

      Just to be sympathetic to her for a moment: it’s really common for admin to end up wearing a lot of different hats. Her outdated tech knowledge may have been considered useful at other recent jobs if her peers were less technically minded. I mean, I recently introduced my coworkers to filtering spreadsheets and their minds were blown, so maybe she’s used to that environment. She still shouldn’t be repeatedly butting in or using a condescending tone, though.

    6. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      This reads to me like she is wanting to move into a different, perhaps more technical role–maybe she’s been stuck in admin after the tech thing she did and has always wished she could go back. In which case it’s a different conversation needing to be had.

      1. SleepyHollow*

        Yeah, I definitely think that she moved away from the technical side of things out of necessity (she worked for a big local corporation that laid off a ton of people back in the nineties and I think she just needed a job). I was one of the people who interviewed her and when she started talking about technical responsibilities it was made very clear to her that there were none in this role by the hiring manager.

        The biggest thing that gets me is that she talks like this experience was at her last job, but it was decades ago, in a completely different environment, using what is now incredibly outdated technology. It’s kind of like if we’re discussing an issue with a backup file on a server and she chimes in to suggest we use a floppy disc.

      2. Rex Libris*

        Yep, I kind of got the idea it was either this, or just generally trying to inflate her own importance. It’s amazing how many people seem to think you advance in the workplace by just sort of pretending you have the role you want, instead of the one you were actually hired for.

        Either way, it calls for a more direct conversation from the manager, not the coworkers.

        1. lemon*

          Or… a kinder way to look at it is that as an admin, some people tend to look down on the work as being unskilled and therefore assume that you must not be that intelligent if all you are is “just” an admin. It must have been hard to go from doing skilled technical work to now doing work that some folks look down on, especially in technical environments. So, instead of “inflating her own importance,” she might just be feeling insecure and trying to prove her intelligence in a way that’s coming across as a little tone deaf.

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        Yep; maybe she considered the current admin position as a jumping off point? But it’s both really too soon to be this heavy in leaning in and clearly not a good look that’s going to make her be considered for the role if/when it ever does come up.

    7. Ellis Bell*

      I might go with the record scratch technique for this one. By that I mean it doesn’t sound like you’re positioned/willing to hash it out properly at length with her and ask her to stop, because that’s her managers job, but you feel like you’re being put on a position of having to give a neutral, polite, smooth “hmm did you?” or polite nodding response. That’s probably the perfect stage for her to continue boasting on, though. A record scratch, rather than a smooth response, is just a really quick way of letting someone know they said something off/ inaccurate without really getting into it, or trying to persuade her of your viewpoint. So, anything like the following: “Uh, no, that doesn’t sound right for this type of work, actually”, or “Oh that sounds totally different to what we would do!” or “How long ago was this?” or “Well, Kristen is the expert, and she always does a great job”. It’s important to avoid getting at all invested in how she receives the record scratch; like don’t try to make any follow up remarks, even if she pushes back or gets defensive. Just make sure you record scratch in the moment and prevent it from being too smooth. So, if you say “Wait, when was that? A while ago?” and she gets defensive and says “No! Anyway I remember it like it was yesterday!” just respond with “Oh okay” or “huh” and walk away. You’re under no obligation to do it, but it’s not rude to go “Wait, what?” if someone says something completely off base, and you may feel less frustrated if you return awkward to sender, instead of smoothing it over.

      1. anon here*

        I agree that a record-scratch moment could be good here but I would be so so careful about anything that references the passage of time. You and I both know that the reference would be to the age of the tech and not of the person, but you also don’t want to be explaining that at your deposition in the age-discrimination lawsuit.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          Oh, there are tons of things to be cautious about, not just that. Lemon made a great point about not talking down to the admin if there’s a danger of it being perceived that way. The concept has to be applied with the knowledge of the context; OP will be best placed to judge that. The safest version is “Really?” or “Huh I guess other companies have their preference”.

    8. Sharon*

      Someone needs to sit down with her and explain that you’re not asking for feedback on your processes, or if she does have feedback, she could preface it with something like “Do you want to know how Old Company handled that?” – and then stop if the answer is “not really.” Input on how industry peers do things can be really useful, but only in the right context, when people are open to alternatives.

  5. Say It Ain't So*

    Is there any value professionally for my son to get a diagnosis for neurodivergence (possibly autism)? He’s currently in high school, hasn’t had a job yet. He does fine in school academically. He’s always attended small, private schools and his teachers just figure out how he operates pretty quickly and learn how to adjust to him, without formal accommodations. He’s quirky but generally gets along with most of his peers, although he and they are struggling to interact with each other. The “jock” kids keep trying to talk to and engage with him in a friendly way, but he can’t see them beyond the sports they play and therefore doesn’t see the point in befriending them. His female classmates adore him. At this point, his future aspirations are to move to Europe and drive trains, which is all fine and well, but as he considers potentially college and a career (or more immediately, a summer job), is it helpful to seek a specific diagnosis? His current diagnosis is ADHD inattentive type, but I’m not convinced that’s correct and even he has started to ask if he’s is ASD.

    1. KitKat*

      In a professional context, the reasons to have a diagnosis are:
      – Gain better understanding of your own condition, needs, and likely points of difficulty. Access resources & support networks (outside of work) to help.
      – Ask for specific accommodations and be prepared should your employer (or educational institution) require documentation of the condition.

      It sounds like revisiting the diagnosis might be helpful for him personally (point 1), but he’s not at a point where he’d be really thinking about formal accommodations.

      1. Rage*

        There are also reasons to NOT pursue a diagnosis. I’m assuming you are in the US. If he wants to move to Europe, he needs to do his research because an ASD diagnosis could prevent him from emigrating or securing employment in his desired field.

        An ASD diagnosis would prevent him from, say, working as an air traffic controller in the US. It would also prevent him from emigrating to Canada; they will not accept an application for citizenship if the individual has an ASD diagnosis, no matter how high-functioning they are.

        He should be able to work with a mental health professional to gain a better understanding of the specifics of his condition, learn coping skills, social skills, scripts, and other methods for navigating a neurotypical world as a non-neurotypical; a diagnosis of ASD is not required for that. He may also not need a formal ASD diagnosis to successfully secure any required accommodations in a workplace; he already has an ADHD diagnosis and that is likely to be enough as far as documentation goes.

        It’s honestly a very individualized decision, since it can impact so many factors both now and in the future. I would suggest finding someone who specializes in ASD – but who cannot diagnose it; ASD can only be diagnosed (again, in the US) by an MD or PhD. But Masters’ level therapists/counselors can absolutely provide support, guidance, and assistance, while keeping that diagnosis off his medical record…until he is 100% certain he wants it there.

      2. TheBunny*

        But this won’t meet the standards for accommodation at an employer as they will want an accommodation diagnosis specifically based on job description. It’s fine to include, but it’s like an employee telling me they need an accommodation and handing HR a note from their doctor saying they are pregnant. It’s not focused toward the job and specifically duties so it’s really not worth much.

        1. Petty Mayonnaise*

          They shouldn’t ask for a diagnosis at all they should only know what accommodations are needed.

    2. Jane Bingley*

      I think the question of a diagnosis would be more of a personal one, not a professional one. You don’t usually need to disclose a specific diagnosis to request accommodations, and an ADHD diagnosis will suffice for most accommodations anyway, so I’d encourage you both to talk through what supports might help him in summer job settings and academia. Asking for specifics – recording lectures, direct and written instructions from a boss, etc – will help organizations provide him with accommodations regardless of whether he seeks a formal ASD diagnosis.

    3. Mystery*

      There is also a consideration of how easy and affordable is it now? If you have good access to care and insurance, but he might not when he ages out of the family plan, it might be worth it to do incase he wants it for something in the future.

    4. Neurodiverse*

      if he’s starting to asking if he’s ASD, then maybe he is and maybe there would be value to his identity and self-concept to get a diagnosis.

      also, part of the diagnosis process recognizes that some individuals can compensate until social demands exceed capacity. it sounds like the teachers and small school environment have helepd to make sure that he was not overwhelmed. it could be helpful on a personal level to have a full picture of his neurodiversity needs because his environments might be different and less adaptable in the future.

    5. Elsewise*

      If he’s looking at living abroad, one thing to consider is immigration restrictions. My partner is autistic and discovered at one point (pre-diagnosis), that there are several countries where they’d be unable to move. It’s a version of the public charge rule, essentially.

      On the other hand- it’s a lot easier to get diagnosed as a kid or teenager than as an adult! I can tell you from my loved ones who are diagnosed, either way you’ll likely be asked to participate in the process as his parent. However, it’s expensive and sometimes people are denied a diagnosis even if they meet a criteria for reasons that have more to do with the tester’s biases than anything else. (I know one person who flagged every test as “extremely autistic” but was not diagnosed because they have friends, and another one because they get good grades. Neither of these are diagnostic criteria, but they’re sometimes used anyway.)

      In general, the autistic community, in my experience, tends to embrace educated self-diagnosis a lot more than many other neurodivergent communities, precisely for issues like the above. I’ve known people who aren’t pursuing diagnosis because they don’t want the stigma, or because they have kids and are worried their ex will use it against them, or because it’s prohibitively expensive. They’re still welcomed at informal support groups and resource groups run by autistic people, but they’re not eligible for workplace accommodations, for example.

      1. Onomatopoetic*

        “Friends and good grades of course mean you can’t be autistic.” Or, as my partner got told: “You have a long time relationship, it’s impossible. Also, a highly qualified job. No way you’re on the spectrum.” Why are these things used for a diagnosis, when they don’t count? Also, it’s called a spectrum for a reason. So frustrating.

        Self diagnosis doesn’t count in a workplace, of course, but it can still help an individual.

    6. Anon for This*

      My son is a person with autism. The diagnosis can open doors for treatment options, give him grounds to request accomodations. Where I live it can also qualify him for assistance in getting vocational training – given his desire to drive trains, that may be helpful. If he is considering college, more of them have programs to support students with Autism. (Honestly, Marshall University in West Virginia has the best program I’ve seen – I recommend it.)

      1. MCL*

        I’ll chime in here. I work at a university, and my university has a student services office specifically focusing on accommodations. But the student would need to work with that office to get a formal accommodation – we encourage instructors to work with that office to make any accommodation arrangements rather than ad hoc with the individual student, as it can lead to uneven student experiences. So if the student has a documented condition it can be smoother to facilitate this.

        1. physics lab*

          Agreed, if someone is considering university and thinks accommodations would be helpful then for the US system they need documentation.

    7. call me wheels*

      If he wants to move to Europe maybe investigate into if having a professional diagnosis could possibly negatively affect visas or right to work or anything like that? I’ve heard people mention they were reluctant to get diagnosed in case of it impacting emigration stuff, I don’t know if there’s any truth in it but just thought I would mention in case.

      My brother finally achieved his dream of becoming a train driver a few years ago and it’s a good job, best of luck to your son!

    8. I Can't Even*

      As someone who works with this population the benefits primarily are for childhood to qualify for programs and treatment. In a advanced school setting or work it can help with obtaining reasonable accommodations.

      If he is of an age (under 21) where there are programs in your area that help with social skills etc (think an ABA program) then there would be benefit to this.

      1. LingNerd*

        Be very, very careful of ABA though. A lot of it is abuse under the guise of therapy. Not all of it, and it’s starting to get better overall, but it’s still something to be extremely cautious about

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, ABA is generally very controversial and there are even concerns that even (some of?) the better versions of it are really more a matter of teaching autistic people to mask/pretend to be NT rather than actually giving them any benefit.

          And it sounds like Say It Ain’t So’s kid is doing pretty well in general, so I wouldn’t recommend a very controversial therapy that seems to have at least as many people with negative experiences as with positive.

    9. LingNerd*

      I would generally recommend it, although if he’s really serious about moving to Europe I’d look into the immigration laws for the country he’s interested in because some countries are crappy about that particular diagnosis. Europe isn’t the only place with trains though, and it’s often really hard to immigrate to most European countries without marriage, so he could absolutely be a train driver without leaving the country!

      Anyway, a diagnosis can sometimes take months depending on appointment availability and how competent the psychiatrist is in ADHD and autism. He doesn’t have to disclose any diagnosis to anyone if he doesn’t want to, but having the right diagnosis can help with getting the right accomodations quickly if he ends up needing them. He might also really struggle with the transition out of high school, especially if he goes to college and/or moves out. Major life changes are hard for everyone, but they can be especially difficult when you’re neurodivergent because they smash your routines to pieces. Building a new routine is extremely difficult with impaired executive function and not having a routine is more disabling than for neurotypicals. In the case of ADHD, you suddenly have to rely so much more on your working memory so everything is exhausting and stuff falls through the cracks, which is extremely stressful. In the case of autism, a lack of routine is often itself a major source of stress and can be completely paralyzing.

      And probably important to note as well, if he’s autistic that doesn’t mean he doesn’t still have ADHD, since it’s incredibly common to have both! So make sure you’re working with a psychiatrist who’s willing to sort out whether it’s one, the other, or both

      1. Pretty as a Princess*

        Came here to say that. One of my younglings has both inattentive type ADHD and is on the autism spectrum.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah the prevalence and likelihood of being AudDHD is quickly becoming more recognised but it wasn’t that long ago that they wouldn’t diagnose you for both.

    10. Nesprin*

      Yes.

      Even if he never seeks treatment, it’s valuable to hear “your brain works a bit differently and here’s things you’re likely to struggle with” vs. “you’re just careless or weird or a misfit and could be normal if you tried”

      1. Say It Ain't So*

        He noticed from a young age that he thinks differently from his peers and we’ve celebrated it as parents, and in general, his classmates have also recognized his gifts. I’m just starting to worry that as he grows into adulthood and the working world, others may not be so kind or find his different brain valuable. So trying to figure out what I can do as a parent to help him excel later.

        1. Nesprin*

          Getting him a diagnosis gives him a community and a community’s worth of resources tailored to those differences.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Just to say that as a possibly autistic, certainly quirky person who has figured from a young age that I was a bit “different” and who did well in school and loved it, adulthood has been a lot easier. Admittedly, I grew up in the 80s and 90s and children today are probably more aware of difference, but I generally found that sort of 7/8 to 15 year olds tend to value sameness whereas once you get beyond 15 or 16, suddenly the things about you that used to make you “weird” are now the things that make you cool and unique.

          My colleagues value my obsessive planning and good memory and tease me about how “yeah, Irish Teacher will probably have this studied and an entire curriculum developed by the end of the year” and they are willing to accept my social awkwardnesses and deal with things like parents and some discipline issues because hey…I share a lot of resources and plans and stuff so it’s all fair and equitable. And they actually get kinda protective of me on staff nights out and so on.

          This isn’t to argue against a diagnosis but just to say that adulthood isn’t necessarily more difficult if you’re a bit different.

    11. illuminate (they/them)*

      Unless your goal is to pursue treatment or formal accommodation that will improve his life, I would work on reading up on the literature to investigate your own reasonably sure understanding of himself rather than pursuing formal diagnosis. That formal diagnosis, as other commenters have mentioned, may close doors to him in the future- especially when it comes to working in other countries, or if he would like to keep the option to foster or adopt children in the future.

      1. Say It Ain't So*

        I think that’s the crux of my question. There’s no “cure” for autism, so what benefits are there for a diagnosis in an individual who has been able to navigate life fairly well so far, but also recognizing that his life so far has been in a VERY safe, enclosed environment, surrounded by family, friends, teachers and classmates who generally know him well, recognize the talents and gifts he has, accommodate his quirks with grace and engage him in ways he’s comfortable.

        1. ampersand*

          I think there’s value in him pursuing a diagnosis at this age and given the circumstances if it’s what he wants. As others have pointed out, he can likely get the right accommodations via his ADHD diagnosis. So he doesn’t necessarily need an ASD diagnosis for future accommodations. But it could offer peace of mind to have a definitive answer! Sometimes it’s nice to have accurate labels for ourselves (especially ND people) instead of guessing/wondering. :)

        2. Parakeet*

          For me (diagnosed in my 30s), I had a few motivations that were varying levels of healthy:

          – I wanted to understand more about how my brain worked in order to figure out what coping mechanisms might be useful that I hadn’t thought of before.

          – I wanted to understand more about how my brain worked out of intellectual curiosity.

          – If I ever need accommodations (at work or otherwise), I want some formal documentation to back up my request.

          – I like external validation that things about me are atypical. It’s probably a side effect of having it hammered into me in childhood that nothing was ever “wrong” with me and that any thought that there was was just an excuse. I learned not to trust my own judgment, was taught that my own judgment was excuse-making. I know that some people really hate medicalization, and that’s valid. But my feeling for myself is much more “Heck yeah medicalize me”

          – I was able to get assessed for several things at the same time by getting a full neuropsych workup.

        3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I am in my early 40s and have intentionally never sought a formal diagnosis for many of the reasons mentioned above. I am also 20 years into a career that I love and have been promoted in, with coworkers, a manager, and direct reports who accommodate both some of my quirks and the workarounds I have developed for some of them over the years. I personally have never regretted my choice to not seek a formal diagnosis.

    12. Mom2ASD*

      My son was diagnosed at age 7 with Autism (Aspeger’s Syndrome, at that point) and attention issues (sort of a subclinical ADHD, but probably relates more to the idea that he simply does not register anything that does not interest him). My son is very high functioning – off-the-chart gifted (tested as such), able to interact with people in a structured setting okay, quirky, awkward socially, has some sensory processing issues.

      Not only was the diagnosis really important for primary and high school to get my son the accommodations that he needs, but it has been helpful as well for him to have the special education resources available to him at university. In fact, we had to go through the whole diagnosis process again privately before he started university, because the school required a current diagnosis (within the last x years) to get accommodations.

      I wanted to make sure my son had access to accommodations in university, because – while he functioned fine in high school – you just never know what might come up. Eg. exams in high school are in a room with 20+ students. In university, there could be hundreds of people – even if they’re quiet, that’s a lot of pen scratching noise, and my son is sensitive to sounds (he used to complain about the sound of the florescent lights in school when he was little). I wanted to be sure that – if needed – he could request to write his exams in a quiet room.

      Also, in terms of employment – if my son ever did need accommodations, a company would require a medical diagnosis. It’s good to have that pre-emptively.

      So, yes, it would be a good idea to get a full diagnosis for your son. Not only would it help him understand himself and his challenges, but it is a good insurance policy in case he needs accommodations in college/university or employment.

    13. Bruce*

      Is he on meds for ADHD and do they seem to help? He could have both ADHD and ASD, my kids do (both of them in their own unique way). They both got accommodations for test time and other things in school and for standardized tests, and those were helpful. We had my older child evaluated by a neuropsychologist and they were found to have ASD as well as ADHD. The younger one was diagnosed with ADHD as a small child and is resistant to getting a new evaluation (he is an adult), but they agree they are probably ASD too (there is a LOT of it in the family). If your child does not get accommodations currently you should still consider applying for them for standardized testing, maybe have them try a practice test under the normal time limit.

      I agree with another commenter that adding an ASD diagnosis to an ADHD diagnosis may not have a big benefit other than better self understanding. And when we had my older child tested the insurance company backed out of the pre-approval they gave us AFTER the testing was done. So it was very expensive out of pocket.

      1. Say It Ain't So*

        He was prescribed Ritalin when he was first diagnosed, which did nothing. We argued back and forth with the doctor to no avail, and ended up switching doctors who didn’t disagree with the ADHD diagnosis, but believed the most prevalent symptom was the anxiety and prescribed Zoloft. That has helped a ton – decisions are made easier, things don’t set him off quite as much, changes are easier to muddle through.

        He’s actually very good at test taking (both regular classroom tests and standardized tests) so I don’t think he would necessarily need accommodations for that, but it is something I’ve also considered when weighing what to do. He may not need it now, but might be good to have in the back pocket in case the time comes.

        1. Bruce*

          My 2 kids had very different reactions to meds, wound up on different ADHD meds but both also were on antidepressants or anti-anxiety pills too. It is very much trial and error! If you are still thinking about further evaluation one idea would be to talk to a neuropsychologist to see what they suggest and what it would cost.

    14. Dust Bunny*

      I think it depends.

      Theoretically, he could need it to ask for accommodations, but his job might not be one in which he needs them. I was diagnosed as autistic when I was in college but my line of work is such that I don’t need the diagnosis for anything. One of my siblings is currently pursing testing but I’m not sure to what end since they are a middle-aged adult in an established career, at a level at which they could more or less give themselves any accommodations they needed, anyway. I have not asked why they are doing this because it’s their prerogative.

    15. Anonymouse*

      If he has a diagnosis of ADHD then he is already has a ‘diagnosis for neurodivergence’. Neurodivergence isn’t a synonym for autism, it covers all types of brains that differ from the majority- it includes autism, but also ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia (aka DCD) are all different types of neurodiversity.

    16. Generic Name*

      Why don’t you ask your son if he’d find a diagnosis helpful? My son was diagnosed at age 14, and it gave him access to therapies that have helped him immensely. Aside from the jocks (and adoring girls?) does he have friends among his peer group? If not, does he want them? That’s where we found a diagnosis most helpful. The therapists he worked with helped him to be able to have actual conversations with peers rather than monologuing/ranting at them, for example.

    17. Festively Dressed Earl*

      ADHD here with a cautionary tale if your son decides to go to college. I was diagnosed as an adult while I was pursuing a graduate degree. While figuring out the best ways to cope, I was advised to request accommodations in school even if I didn’t strictly need them right then. The professional licensing exam administrators granted accommodations easily for examinees who’d had them in school, but required a nightmarish amount of bureaucracy if the degree-granting institution had no record of the student’s disability. I didn’t believe it until I verified it myself, dubious legality and all.

      Ultimately I decided against asking and did fine. Technically, the proctors could have taken away my medication since I didn’t think to get a doctor’s note or a copy of the prescription, but they didn’t push it. Also, the licensing exam’s conditions were different enough that it could throw some people for a huge loop. I was lucky.

    18. Literally a Cat*

      I think it’s best for him to make this decision himself. I’m not European, I suspect the amount of diversity on how people would treat this label would range from Extremely Good to Extremely Not Good.

      I’m strongly recommended to get a diagnosis by 1 clinician, and strongly recommended against a diagnosis by 2; because they are concerned about the legal loopholes of discriminations that I would set myself up by having a label.

    19. Hypatia*

      I’m reading these replying with interest as I also have a kiddo in high school with ADHD and anxiety, and despite his smarts and decent medication, school life is still difficult for him. (Elementary school was small and supportive , and he was moderately successful there.) I was thinking of having him reevaluated to see if ASD would fit. The diagnosis would help in redesigning his accommodations.

    20. Retired now*

      I don’t have an opinion as to whether he should pursue a formal diagnosis, but I will say if he is planning to attend college in the US, most universities will honor and accommodation, but will not subsidize the steps you need to go through to get one. I find it very painful that many of my students who clearly need accommodations don’t have the resources in college to pursue them.

    21. Nightengale*

      If he might need accommodations – although his existing ADHD diagnosis might be sufficient. A lot of colleges in the US require psychological testing within the past 3-5 years for ADHD so it may or may not be.

      Or if HE wants to know for piece of mind

      (My perspective as an adult diagnosed autistic person who takes care of neurodivergent children and who is pretty connected to the autistic/neurodiversity communities)

  6. Bookworm*

    You’ll remember my post last week about the coworker who was always commenting on coworkers’ financial choices (lunch, cars, vacations, etc.). I told her it was not appropriate to stop, she went crying (literally!) to HR, and nothing came of that since there was an executive witness. This happened on Friday and I posted about it as it happened.

    Anyway, she started again Monday! This time it was with a guy in the department who just snapped. He asked her who made her the office money police and “to just shut the f**k up.” He has a lot of political capital and brought our manager and her manager (she’s on an adjacent team we work a lot with) and told management “She has to stop now. No more arguments about it.” I’m assuming management had a serious talk with her as she’s quiet, only talks about work stuff, and the money police thing is over. Thankfully!

    4. Meep*

      I was wondering about how it would go down. I am glad you too the first step to make it acceptable to say something. I don’t love a man yelling at a woman to get her to stop, but at this point, it should’ve been addressed long ago.

      May it stick!

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        With someone that aggravating, imo anyone is allowed to shout at her to STFU – it worked and should have been done some time ago. When you’ve tried being kind long enough and it doesn’t work, try being unkind,

      3. Dust Bunny*

        I say this as a woman: I don’t think the point here was man vs. woman. I think it was person who was fed up vs. person who was out of line.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          Regardless of the genders, I wouldn’t normally feel great about someone being told to STFU at work when they could just be asked to stop, but since bookworm already tried that and it went down like a lead balloon… what was she expecting?!

          1. Bookworm*

            Yeah, next time I’m just going to go with STFU since asking her to stop didn’t work. I’m sure she’s going to go back to being the “money police” – I’m just not sure how long break is going to be!

            1. Chauncy Gardener*

              Maybe just use code word “money police” next time it happens.
              Hey, stop being the “money police!!!” We’re all sick of it!

            2. Love me, love my cat*

              Probably not the most office-friendly thing to say, but I’d look her right in the eye and very calmly ask if she has any idea of just how stupid/crazy/out of touch she sounds when she has been specifically told to stop this. Then I’d ask just how many times she needs to be told to STFU before it sinks in.
              Am I still a bit bitter about a couple former coworkers? Why do you ask?

          2. Boof*

            It’s certainly not the recommended professional choice, or the ideal choice, but after apparently numerous other attempts to stop a really obnoxious behavior, it’s an understandable choice.

    5. PX*

      Hah, I read that last week and was curious how it would end. I feel like this is also a great reminder that you only ever get one person’s side of the story because immediately I read this all I could think was – “I wonder how different this all sounds when she tells it to her friends”

    7. RagingADHD*

      I doubt it’s over. She’ll start up again eventually. She just may be more selective about who she polices.

      It’s like squirting a cat with water when they get on the counter. They don’t stop getting on the counter. They just wait for you to leave.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        Yep. She’ll do it with the new hires and the meek and timid. I’d tell all those who fit in those categories to shut it down the first time with aplomb.

    8. Shirley You're Joking*

      It’s amazing how none of us would normally endorse telling someone to STFU at work, and yet, we are cheering for this!

      Assuming that she starts up again, what if everyone agrees to respond with something like: What is it about your own life that makes you feel like you need to comment on everyone else’s in such a negative way?

      I can’t imagine her being able to stand having someone say a version of that to her over and over. Or even just saying, “I wonder what might help you stop fixating on money so much.”

      Turn this back on her own mental health every freaking time. She is going to hate that. And I will cheer for that too, even though I would never normally advocate for this.

  7. Amber Rose*

    I don’t know what kind of advice I need here but I’m not doing well.

    When I got fired in April part of my termination agreement was that they’d support me finishing my certification, which I was halfway through. I thought that I couldn’t get it without a job, but yesterday the group issuing it said I can, as long as I have the necessary docs. I need samples of things I worked on.

    But I can’t bear it. It feels so humiliating to email them now after all these months. Thinking about contacting that horrible HR person makes me feel sick. I need to finish this thing to help my job prospects but I seriously don’t know how I can do this. And what if they say no?

    1. Tio*

      If they agreed in the termination to support you through your certificate, then presumably they would not want to say no. I’m sorry you have to talk to them again! Is there anyone else you could contact instead, like your manager?

    2. Name (Required)*

      It was part of your termination agreement, so it’s not humiliating – it’s a business agreement and they shouldn’t say no. Be very matter of fact about it – “per our agreement, please send me X and Y, which I need to finish my certification process.”

    3. Susan Calvin*

      It sounds like this was basically part of your severance package, so approach it with the same attitude as reminding them to cut your final paycheck. You’re not asking for a favor, they owe you!

      If you can at all plausibly go through a contact that’s less repulsive to you, obviously do that too – maybe a former team lead, senior project member, or someone else who arguably has a better understanding of the content of your work, which seems a relevant qualification to producing the correct documents?

    4. JB (not in Houston)*

      I agree with what Tio said, but also, to turn your question back to you, ok, so what if they say no? For me, when I’m worried about that kind of scenario, planning for it helps me stop being as worried about it. Could you, like Tio said, contact someone else? Go back to HR and ask them how they are going to uphold their end of the agreement? In any case, if they say no, you wouldn’t be in a worse position than you are now, and then you’d know what you were dealing with.

      Be gentle with yourself, in any case. Break it down into tiny steps. Open up a blank document, take a break. Write a rough draft of an email to HR, take a break. Edit the email, take a break. Etc., etc. Or whatever works for you to make a little progress on this unpleasant task without it feeling overwhelming.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Like Tio mentioned, is there someone besides the horrible HR person you could reach out to? Your previous manager or perhaps a different (not-horrible) HR person?

      Do you have a friend/family member who could help you draft up the email? Or just sit beside you and remind you that this is a totally normal business communication, and otherwise help you through any emotions you may have? Or you could draft up the email by yourself, but if you have someone physically nearby for the moment you hit “send” on the email, I think that could be a big help. That person can help you shift from thinking about the email to thinking about [what to eat for dinner/a TV you’re both watching/literally anything else] so it’s harder to go into an emotional spiral.

      1. Who cares*

        Have a friend or AI help you draft the email. Please edit it yourself of course, and then just send it off. Maybe CC your old manager if you think it will make the HR person behave properly. There’s nothing embarrassing about you holding them to their agreement in my opinion!

    6. Forensic13*

      I’m guessing part of your concern here is that you might feel guilty about either the firing or “getting something” out of it. If that’s the case, try to neutralize the way you think about it.
      Lots of people get fired, and unless you were actually, I don’t know, stealing money, it doesn’t have to be any statement on you as a person. In the same way, the severance agreement is just something that the company thought worked for them (both of you?) and they agreed to do it. So it’s perfectly reasonable to accept it. Think about it as a final paycheck; would you deny yourself your last paycheck just because you got fired? No, and this is just another type of compensation for the work you did for the company.

      1. Amber Rose*

        No guilt. My firing was both unethical and illegal and they only got away with it because I was too beat down to fight back.

        Basically, what’s happening right now is I feel like I have to ask my abuser for a favor.

        1. Digital Hubbub*

          Oh heck, that is horrible. I have been through something vaguely similar. It’s difficult to put into words how badly it dented my dignity and confidence for quite some time. Having to contact them again for practical reasons later was immensely unpleasant.
          If it helps at all, you are not begging for something, you are politely requesting something you are OWED. There’s lots of good advice elsewhere in this thread for how to get through doing it.
          Good luck and we wish you confidence and strength.

    7. Rex Libris*

      If they say no, you’re in exactly the same position as if you didn’t ask at all. Literally nothing to lose by asking.

    8. kalli*

      Write an email to your former supervisor, cc HR person.

      Attach your termination agreement and something in writing from the group issuing the certification saying you need samples of your work.

      Your email is like:
      “Hi,

      I hope you’re doing well! [inane small talk greeting to facilitate positive feelings via social grease]

      I’m nearing the end of my certification. As per the attached, it was agreed that [workplace] would support me finishing the certification, and I’m now advised that I need to provide samples of these kinds of work completed during my time at [workplace]. Can you please forward copies of the following:
      [list types/kinds of work you need samples of]

      The [course people] need them by [date] for my certification to get processed.

      I really appreciate your help with this. Please let me know if you need more information!

      Thank you
      Amber Rose”

      If there are issues with confidentiality you may have to revert to the course coordinators for more information or permission to provide work with sensitive data (client info or similar) redacted, or get a copy of a privacy policy to show your work it’s being destroyed after being graded or whatever, but once you get the first email out of the way it’s a lot easier.

      If they give you trouble over it, it’s a breach of contract and they have to put you in the position you were in before you signed the termination agreement, so they should be incentivised to keep their commitment here.

    9. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Turn the situation around! Think of how that nasty HR person will feel hearing from you, like you ruined their day. Win! Allow yourself an evil chuckle as you send that very businesslike email.

      1. TheBunny*

        This feels…less than helpful. I’m pretty sure most of us don’t take joy from ruining someone’s day, especially as that gives that person a heck of a hold on the emotions of your day.

        Instead maybe better advice would be to treat it like any other business transaction, go into it with the goal of getting it handled, and move to the next thing.

    10. Ellis Bell*

      Oh, I would probably feel exactly the same. Nevertheless, it’s just not as fraught with emotion on their side as it is on yours, and they’re not going to think twice about such a standard request, even if they say no. What kind of HR person would you have liked the HR contact to be? Make up a better HR character in your head. Let’s call them Ace. Write your request to Ace, fully confident that they will help you. At the last moment add the right name for who you’re addressing, while sorrowfully shaking your head that they’re not as good at their job as Ace. Or use Kalli’s excellent draft; you just need to eat the frog on this one! Good luck x

    11. The Prettiest Curse*

      Emailing the HR person probably is going to feel awful, and there’s no way around that. But not getting a certification that could help you in your job hunt because you didn’t email the HR person is going to feel a LOT worse. Going around and around in an endless guilt, anxiety and shame spiral because you didn’t email the HR person is also going to feel absolutely terrible. So, do you want to feel terrible for the 10-20 minutes it takes you to write and send the email, or do you want to feel terrible about this for weeks and possibly months?

      I know how awful it feels to have to contact a person who’s been awful to you. But the sooner this gets done, the sooner it will be off your mind and you will never ever have to think about this person again if you don’t want to do so. Please take care of yourself and I hope you get what you need.

    12. fhqwhgads*

      They agreed to do it, so you shouldn’t have to worry about them saying no. I understand that, as a human, that doesn’t prevent the worry, and if they’re a-holes they might say no anyway, but hopefully it helps just a little in terms of your emotions that: they said they’d help. This is that help. You’re completely in the right and reasonable to ask. If they say anything but yes, they’re the a-hole. It’s not humiliating. It’s just what you were promised.

  8. Heather*

    How do you feel about offering interview redo’s?

    For example, a “newish” to professional work good qualifications makes a handful of errors in the interview that look less professional than needed but could likely be corrected such as: not using a background or turning on a camera for a virtual interview. Or not sharing the screen well during a demo that is part of the job requirement and seeing their social media messages pop up because the candidate shared the whole screen and not a window and forgot to shut down sites that are not relevant to the work.

    Would you offer a small redo of a portion of an interview with a short explanation about professionalism and preparation and notify the candidate for a demo redo to see if they can make those corrections or simply move on?

    1. CubeFarmer*

      I would not, because I don’t have time for that. This is a skill that a candidate could practice with friends or family ahead of time, and if they can’t perform well during the demo that will be a requirement of their job, then I would not want to have the same thing happen during a real-time work presentation.

    2. Tio*

      I wouldn’t really offer a redo. Either you think this is something that can be corrected and you accept them and decide to train them, or you decide it’s a bad sign of technical competency and/or you have equal or better candidates and move on. And honestly, if someone wasn’t on video and I expected them to be, I ask them to turn it on before we continue. Shows they can learn it right there, no need for a redo or anything. or they can’t, and that may be a bad sign. I really think most of these are better addressed in the moment than doing a whole secondary half-interview.

      You could always move them to second interview and see if they correct it but that would depend on how strong the candidate it.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Fully agree! “Either you think this is something that can be corrected and you accept them and decide to train them, or you decide it’s a bad sign of technical competency and/or you have equal or better candidates and move on”
        Unless there is specific reason the employee will need to apply the skills a redo would be testing (I’d ask you to think critically about what this really is), Tio’s points stand.

        1. Heather*

          I did not hold the entire interview with no camera. The candidate signed in without it on and did not turn it on until asked. Unfortunately, the computer was set up in a bedroom with a bed and clothing in the background. Further, the sharing of the screen was the whole screen and not a window as I said.
          My potential for offering a redo is basically a kindness as the entire job is virtual and both of these skills are necessary and highly important for the role. The candidate is quite young and a recent college graduate without a lot of professional experience and may not know the base level of interview requirements. I am interested in reading more responses to see what others think.
          Thanks so much for your input.

          1. kalli*

            If it’s necessary and important to the role then either you train for it once you pick someone or it’s a criterion at interview – you don’t interview someone and then coach them on how to pass the interview stage. That’s career counsellor territory, not potential employer territory.

            If they’re otherwise a fit and you don’t have anyone else who can possible do the role, hire them and train them in how to use that particular video call software and what your expectations are for presentation on calls.

            The only time I’ve ever come across a redo was due to technical failure on the day on the employer’s part, and it was offered to everyone who interviewed for the role. The skills tests could not be completed at interview so everyone got a new time and had to attend in person to complete them and meet the hiring manager. That eliminated the appearance of bias (coaching one person to pass but not everyone very easily could look like favouritism!) and didn’t give anyone more or less time with the hiring manager, and everyone got the same environment for the skills test.

            1. Tio*

              This.

              Interviews are for determining what you can about someone’s skills and personality to make a decision. You received that information that they may have a few minor professionalism issues. If you think it could be cleaned up easily, give that feedback and schedule a second interview if you want to proceed with them, or cut them loose if you don’t.

    3. FMNDL*

      I’d recommend making these expectations clear and explicit before the interview in the first place. These norms vary among different workplaces and cultures and the person interviewing has no way to know how you define professional expectations unless you tell them. I don’t think it makes sense to judge people based on their ability to know what you want but never asked for.

      1. Heather*

        I gave specific information on the demo and what I needed in the description of the interview. I did not say the candidate would be required to be on screen but the entire interview was virtual and the role is for an on-camera virtual position. I assumed anyone would gather that they should sign in on camera or turn it on based on the job description alone based on this. I could definitely be more clear moving forward though I do feel the expectation based on the job makes it clear and no other candidate has ever not had their camera on and ready. I will consider options moving forward and maybe ask for some feedback from those that interviewed.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Don’t assume anything! You know infinitely more about the job and your expectations than your candidates do. If something like a virtual background is important enough that they will gain or lose points in the interview based on doing or not doing it, you need to say so.

          I am fully remote and do customer-facing video calls sometimes. I don’t use a virtual background by default, but if an interviewer told me it was important to them, then I could either make an exception or decide that role isn’t for me.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          No, come on. If a camera and a virtual background is a requirement for the interview, you need to say that. If you didn’t bother to provide the information, then you have no business holding it against someone.

          1. Charley*

            Virtual backgrounds don’t work in my computer. I’m aware of this, so I try to set myself up with a t

            1. Charley*

              idy and non-distracting view behind me, but generally I would avoid judging candidates on things that may be out of their control.

              I’ve also heard from friends with migraines that looking at videos with virtual backgrounds can trigger auras/visual disturbances, so there are definitely reasons why many people don’t use them. I wouldn’t consider them an unstated professional norm.

        3. bay scamp*

          I got my current job after a virtual interview (it’s a professional job that requires a Masters+ in my specific field). I did not use a background and neither did either of the two people interviewing me, who were also working from their own homes. If I interviewed from home now, I certainly would not assume that I needed to use a virtual background… as others have mentioned, these backgrounds don’t even work on everyone’s computers. I would try to have a clean and uncluttered space behind me but would not assume just because I was being interviewed online that I needed to use a virtual background.

    4. HonorBox*

      Curious here – you say both redo and then demo redo. Which is it?

      I don’t think you need to offer a redo for some (what I would consider) minor technical goofs. So they used a background, or didn’t. The social media messages are a bit embarrassing, but not something to completely write someone off over. If they’re otherwise good candidates and just aren’t that used to virtual interviews, chalk it up to some inexperience and move them along in the process if you would absent those things.

      But if you’re suggesting a demo redo to give them practice… don’t. You may have great intentions but it could more easily come across poorly. They probably already know that they goofed up and you don’t need to compound it

      1. Heather*

        The role is one in which they have to demo specific skills that are technical and online in a virtual format… on screen. I am not planning to offer a redo the whole interview, just the demo portion that would show the skillset needed and competency for it. Does that change your thoughts on it?

    5. Noodles*

      I agree with making expectations clear. Things like having a background aren’t the norm in every workplace (my partner works remotely for a giant tech company and backgrounds don’t tend to be used, often not even blurring, and being on video isn’t required). If someone isn’t on video and you want them to be, tell them in the moment. Same with screen sharing. These are all incredibly easy to learn things. Especially for people newer to the workplace, if they in other respects were a great fit, but they shared their entire screen, I’d just tell them how to share just their window and move on.

      1. Trotwood*

        I wonder what OP was even seeing with the candidate who didn’t have a background set up? Was it just a normal view of their bedroom/office/kitchen? Were they in front of a giant mound of dirty clothes? Were they interviewing from the bar and had a pile of empty beer cans next to them? Evaluate what you actually saw of this person’s level of professionalism, not just whether or not they did things exactly the way you would do them.

    6. Antilles*

      Honestly, in your examples, I think the question should be whether or not you should care about any of that in the first place because all of those sorts of minor technical things happen plenty in actual meetings and nobody ever gives a damn.
      Someone forgetting to close a browser window before clicking share is something I see in at least one meeting per week. Plenty of companies and workers take calls without being on camera. And if people are on camera, not everybody uses a background in their calls.
      Not one of those really speaks to anything relating to “professionalism” or “preparation” in my mind. And frankly, even if for some reason your industry desperately needs perfect Teams professionalism, that’s something that’s fixable with like a 45-second mention once they start and maybe a couple minutes from your IT stuff. “Oh, btw, during your interview you showed your living room office, but here we like to use a generic background showing the corporate logo for consistency, IT will set that up for you. Thanks!”

      2. Heather*

        In this case, think of the role as less of a corporate/remote job role and more of interactive on camera role that works with children and teens. Professionalism and what is on camera is absolutely an essential part of the job.
        Again, I think the person could just be inexperienced and not aware but there were some flubs that made me curious about their technical abilities and judgment in using them.
        I am considering offering a redo of the demo so I can see all of those things in one place.
        I will consider your thoughts on it though. Thank you.

        1. Bike Walk Barb*

          It feels as if you want this person to move forward in the process, or maybe think they’d be good at it if they do have the appropriate level of technical abilities. That’s your call as the hiring manager, if that’s your role.

          If you have plenty of strong candidates who didn’t make these same judgment calls about how to handle the interview, do you have extra time to give someone who would need extra training? Are you motivated to do so because they would add diversity your team is lacking and that’s important to you?

          I’d rank them relative to the other candidates, including the value they may bring in the form of different lived experience or perspectives; decide whether to advance them to a second interview; and call it good. At that point if you want to establish expectations for tech management in the second interview, communicate it to everyone so one candidate isn’t getting extra coaching.

      3. Banana Pyjamas*

        Agreed. I’m currently doing multiple zoom based courses, and exactly one person so far uses a background. Even in the professional development course through the professional society, cameras were required to be on for attendance, but backgrounds were not required. If you require cameras to be on, you should communicate that in advance in case candidates need to make appropriate arrangements, like finding a different location.

        I will also take a page from my college’s book here: if your organization has specific netiquette guidelines you should share them in writing.

    7. Cordelia*

      I wouldn’t redo the interview. All these things are very easy to correct – if the person was otherwise a good candidate that you would want to employ if they hadn’t made these mistakes, then just continue the interview process.

    8. Bast*

      I wouldn’t offer a redo, but I also would not hold it against an otherwise strong candidate.

      I don’t think that things such as using a background while interviewing are universal. As someone for whom virtual interviewing is somewhat new (really wasn’t much of a thing pre-covid in my field), the advice I’ve mostly had is to make sure your background is professional and non-offensive. A plain wall, a bookcase, etc., likely would not be found offensive or unprofessional. It would never occur to me that the expectation is that one would use one of the backgrounds in the app.

      The second part regarding social media I’d chalk up to nerves. I don’t think lecturing them about professionalism would be helpful, because they likely are already mortified.

      1. Trotwood*

        Also, what kind of pop-ups were you seeing? Was it “Jane Smith posted a new photo!” or was it “Jane Smith said “can’t wait to get totally wasted with you this weekend!”” If it’s alluding to some sort of problematic behavior that’s one thing, if it’s just someone’s normal life intruding a little bit into the interview, it’s not doing your hiring process any favors to hold that against them.

        1. PostalMixup*

          There’s also the fact that they’re most likely interviewing from their personal computer rather than a work computer. I’m not signed into any social media other than LinkedIn on my work computer, so the need to change notification settings might not even occur to me, because I never get social media notifications during virtual meetings.

    9. hi there*

      No re-do. We make the expectations clear in advance (e.g., send questions/format information), which is then the candidate’s job to meet. If there are NO qualified candidates interviewed, that’s a time to re-evaluate the hiring process or job description.

      1. Heather*

        I am not offering to redo the whole interview, just considering the technical demo which would allow the candidate a chance to showcase their technical abilities and professionalism in one place. I did send the expectations (minus the required to be on screen) and the role is for an on camera working position so I did not specifically say it had to be on as it is implied heavily in the title. (Also, no one else has ever not turned their camera on for this role.)
        We are good on candidates and job description and have been able to expand quite nicely for the last year. I appreciate the considerations you offered thought because I imagine other people may not have checked those out recently.

    10. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would not offer a redo of anything. If those errors are big enough issues in your field/job that they make the candidate unqualified for it, then remove them from your candidate pool or score them accordingly low.

      Asking someone to try again to meet your standards seems really condescending to me, Sue we liked you in the interview but we’re worried about your professionalism, can you answer our same questions but this time do it with a different background? Like WTF. FWIW, to me those seem like minor issues, the type of thing you might do when stressed about an interview, and easily coach able if you hire that candidate and it reoccurs.

    11. spcepickle*

      We do not offer redo’s – But we do offer debriefs and an invitation to reapply. I work for the government so our interview rules are really strict.
      I have had people interview who seem to have the potential to be a good fit – but not my final choice. I will debrief with them after our final choice is made – tell them exactly what I would need to see improvement on for next time. When we repost the position again (we positions that get posted pretty constantly) I will send them the link and ask them to reapply, sometimes it works and they get better, sometimes it does not.

      All that said – One of my recent hires was pretty unpolished in an interview (looked liked he just woke up, was wearing basically gym clothes, no background). I decided that I was hiring for enthusiasm and the ability to be trained and brought him on. He has 100% needed training on workplace norms – but he is flourishing at his job and he brings the enthusiasm I was looking for.

      Also I have 20+ years of work experience and I have had messages pop up on my shared screen, flashed my email inbox to a room full of people, and forgot I was unmuted more times than I care to consider. People are people, and if you are demanding perfection you are going to miss out on great employees.

      1. Heather*

        I like the idea of a debrief more formally than the quick debrief at the end when the candidate asked a few questions. I really like the idea of saying, “not at this time” but try again. Thanks so much,.

    12. RagingADHD*

      I think it’s silly to bring them in for a second interview and pretend it’s a first interview. It doesn’t reveal anything about their skills or match for a job if you tell them to turn their camera on, or turn off messaging, and they follow directions. A middle schooler can follow directions. So presenting this as a “redo” is a complete waste of your time.

      If they are a strong enough candidate that you want to keep them in the running (or your candidate pool is small enough that you need to keep them in the running in order to fill the role at all), bring them to the second round and discuss these errors in context, along with whatever else you would normally go over.

    13. Strive to Excel*

      Those are a) incredibly tiny errors b) only something you’d realize is a new business norm if you’ve had a decent amount of experience and c) something that people do ALL THE TIME on actual calls. I’m talking senior executives at banks who can’t figure out how to switch their audio.

      Ignore it. If they’re a good candidate and you want to move forwards with them, include a “Teams Expectations” blurb in their onboarding. But I wouldn’t bother otherwise.

      1. Ready for my close up*

        re b) – isn’t a general norm but something some companies impose. If the interviewing company is one of them, that’s fine but unless I was told ahead of time I needed to be on camera I’d be pretty annoyed about it too.

      2. Hazel*

        I’m not sure they are tiny errors in the context of an on camera job with minors. It sounds like for safeguarding, being obviously in a bedroom with visible perineal items would be a problem, as would random social media pop ups, because of content. This sounds beyond technical issues and towards obliviousness, where the OP will not be able to account for every possible thing they might do after they are hired and on their own with kids.

    14. learnedthehardway*

      No, I wouldn’t advise this. If you offer it to one person, you would have to offer it to everyone who blew an interview, in the interests of fairness and equity.

      You can, if you want, have some follow up questions to probe further on the areas of concern in 2nd or 3rd interviews, if you feel the candidate was strong enough to progress.

      You can also note down the issue as areas to coach on, if the person is hired.

      Personally, I would not hold not having a background screen against any candidate – older computers may not have the capability (my last desktop computer couldn’t handle digital backdrops, and I wasn’t to buy a new one simply to have that capability).

      The rest of these issues sound like minor things that can be trained/coached, honestly.

    15. Cj*

      Maybe their Internet isn’t fast enough for them to use video reliably, and if you’re talking about using a zoom or teams background, they can be really distracting because they make weird waving motions around your hair.

      I’ve never seen anybody’s social media notifications pop up on a shared screen, but I’ve certainly seen a lot of email notifications that show the first part of the email. a couple of jobs ago, everybody learned that lesson about this without something popped up for everyone to see about an employee’s performance.

      these are all really simple things that somebody shouldn’t have issue learning if they are hired. and if it’s an internet and with problem for the video, that shouldn’t be an issue unless they’re going to work remotely and your company requires video for meetings.

      1. Heather*

        The role requires speedy internet and on camera visibility as defined in the job description. Which is why I was concerned.

    16. ecnaseener*

      I wouldn’t frame it as a redo. That implies you’re going to disregard the first interview and fully replace it in your head with this second interview, and you’re probably not, right? A job interview isn’t like an entrance exam, or a qualifier for a competition, etc., it’s a business meeting where both sides are trying to figure out if it’s a good fit.

      If you genuinely want to talk more with this candidate because the issues you described prevented you from being able to tell whether they’re a good fit, then I’d frame it as a follow-up interview. Focus on the specific questions you still have about the candidate. But if it’s just “yes they could do the job well, but I feel like I should take ‘points’ off for not screen-sharing correctly” – you don’t have to do that. You can just conclude that they could do the job well after five minutes’ worth of coaching on screen-sharing.

    17. Office Manager*

      I think red flags in an interview are often black holes in an employee (or employer!). I wouldn’t.

    18. Blue Pen*

      No, I don’t think I would offer them a redo—I don’t really see the point of that because I’m not that personally invested yet in their career or livelihood—but if you see enough promise there where it would warrant a subsequent interview, then I would frame it that way: “Hi X, we would love to extend an invite for you to join us on the next phase of the hiring process here. For this next round, could you check to make sure [X] is working on your end? We’re looking forward to it!”

    19. Double A*

      I think framing it as a “redo” is a little odd, but if you’re interested enough in the candidate and you think these issues might be coachable, why not offer a second interview? Offer some coaching, then see how the candidate does. In that sense, you are having them “redo” the presentation, but what you’re really looking for is how they respond to coaching.

    20. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I wouldn’t offer redos unless the problem was on your side, as imo it is unfair to other candidates, who might also like grace for e.g. fluffs or brainfarts.

      Since the job description explained in advance what was needed and no other candidates made these mistakes, why consider a redo for this particular person – are you otherwise so impressed with them, or don’t you have enough other candidates?

  9. CubeFarmer*

    My boss, Deidre, made some anti LGBTQ comments to me during a hiring process. Our strongest candidate for a job, let’s call her Matilda, had listed a few LGBTQ activities on her resume. As a result, Deidre objected to hiring Matilda.

    My colleague with whom I was doing the hiring, and I both strongly agreed that Matilda was the most qualified candidate–by far!–and we agreed that if Deidre said “no” we were going to make her explain exactly why she thought Matilda wasn’t the right candidate. We knew she couldn’t do that without breaking the law. We ended up hiring her. Matilda will report to me and another colleague.

    What can I do to be a good ally without being parental? I feel like I need to keep an ear open for any snide comment Deidre might make and then deal with it, both by talking to Matilda and probably going above my boss’s head. We’re a small organization. We have no HR, and going above Deidre’s head means talking to a member of our board.

    1. MsM*

      I think you might want to go ahead and talk to the board anyway. Matilda’s probably not the last or only hire this is going to be an issue with, and if there’s any chance Deirdre is expressing these views externally or letting them color her interactions with stakeholders, that’s a problem. Although so is not ensuring all staff have a firm understanding of antidiscrimination laws and policies regardless of whether there’s an official HR.

    2. curiousgeorge*

      I think this does justify talking to a member of the board. You have a manager who has explicitly made anti LGBTQ comments to you and demonstrated bias during a hiring decision. If you feel comfortable doing so, you could also speak to Deidre directly explaining you do not agree with her comments and that her behaviour in the selection process created risk for the company?

      1. CubeFarmer*

        We clearly didn’t agree with her assessment of the candidate because we disregarded her concerns and hired her.

        1. curiousgeorge*

          I meant more explicitly calling out the bigotry, if you felt comfortable doing that. I appreciate that if she is your boss there may be a concern of retaliation if you do.

          1. CubeFarmer*

            Thanks (hopefully you see this.) Here’s my issue. The bigotry was so, so subtle. It wasn’t, “I’m not going to hire this person because they’re LGBTQ!” It was, “Why put that on a resume? Why is it any different than anyone else?”

            I calmly explained that, historically, I think that many LGBTQ people were excluded from spaces and this is a way to make professional connections and friends (the entire time screaming on the inside, “WHY DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THIS TO SOMEONE IN A MAJOR US CITY IN 2024?????”) and if our workplace was homophobic, it’s an attempt for mutually filtering out. Since our workplace, however, is NOT homophobic, this should not be a problem (leveling a firm gaze at her.)

            1. Retired new*

              I’m concerned that without telling Matilda what’s going on, she won’t understand why Deidre is being so weird and you didn’t give her the choice to decide if she wanted to work for someone who had those keys.

        2. Cruciatus*

          But hiring Matilda is not the end of this situation. This will come up again, somehow. It should be on record now. I think you should talk to the board.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          Yes, you were the guardrail that prevented her from being a liability to the company, but it’s not realistic to assume you can guardrail her every move. If you were on the board, would you want to know that employees are having to stop and prevent her from doing something illegal? Would the actual board members want to know about this averted liability? About her bias? That’s not a rhetorical question, alas, sometimes being an ally is the best you can do, but it’s worth thinking about.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I agree. “Deidre literally said she didn’t want to hire a qualified candidate because of her LGBTQ activities and we’re concerned this illegal bias could come up in other situations” is something the board needs to know.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          This is the crux. Matilda lucked out in that the OP and her colleague overruled Deirdre, but A) Matilda still has to work there, with Dierdre, B) I doubt she is the first or only LGBTQ employee there, and C) managing to overrule Dierdre once doesn’t negate the illegality of what she did.

    3. FMNDL*

      I agree that it makes sense for you to bring this up. You don’t have to mention it specifically in the context of the new person at all. But any such comments are inappropriate and it makes sense for you to tell someone who can help take action that they’re never acceptable.

    4. pally*

      Not gonna add to the good advice already given. Just want to thank you and your colleague for standing up to bigotry. And for seeking proactive steps to keep said bigotry from harming employees. Thank you!!!

    5. bamcheeks*

      It makes it more acute when you’ve got a specific person who you think is being victimised by these comments, but it’s something you should address directly even if Matilda weren’t there. You don’t know whether or not there is someone else in the team who hasn’t come out or told you that someone close to them is LGBTQ+ but is going to be affected by those bigoted comments.

      Don’t wait for Deidre to do something TO Matilda. Talk to someone right now.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        This. Ideally, Matilda never knows this happened. But if Deidre does misbehave, Matilda needs to feel supported and safe.

    6. HonorBox*

      I’m so glad that you and your colleague stood up and did the right thing. That’s awesome.

      I’ve worked both in your role (structurally) and Deidre’s, where the board would be the next step, and I think you really do need to say something. Deidre’s actions could have caused a legal problem that the board would have to help work through, and her comments would make me worry about her taking any actions related to Matilda that could also be hugely problematic for the organization. I’d talk to the board chair directly if you have a good relationship, and if you don’t, speak to the board member with whom you have the best relationship. Let them know your concerns about the objection to Matilda and that you’re concerned about Deidre’s objections might play out going forward. They’ll probably at least keep a closer eye on things that are done and said.

      In being an ally to Matilda, I think you should treat her just as you do your other colleague. Friendly, supportive, etc. Get to know her, and if she brings up the outside activities, show interest and support there too. I wouldn’t go out of the way to push her to talk about those things though, because that could be uncomfortable as well.

    7. Em from CT*

      I’m no HR expert, but from reading Alison for many years, my guess is that a good phrasing for use with the board member might be: “I’m concerned that we are exposing the organization to legal liability.”

    8. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Depending on what state you’re in, what she’s doing toes the line of illegal. But you may want to confirm that this is true in your state.

      Regardless, as a manager, keep an ear out, make sure Matilda knows you’re someone she can come to safely to bring forward any concerns, and be prepared to report Deidre when she crosses the line (it’s not a matter of if, let’s be real).

      1. Yes And*

        In the two states I know best, if Dierdre was explicit about not wanting to hire Matilda due to real or perceived LBGTQ+ identity, that would be a giant flying leap over the line of illegal and doing a dance in the end zone. If Dierdre acts on any of that bigotry with respect to Matilda’s employment, she’d be putting the organization at enormous legal risk.

        I’m usually the person on this site saying “Don’t go to the board unless you really need to,” but if that’s the only level above Dierdre at this organization, I’d say that step is warranted.

      2. Trotwood*

        Post-Bostock vs. Clayton County, I’d expect this to constitute illegal discrimination nation-wide. Any company with competent HR should be taking action on a report like this.

      3. CubeFarmer*

        We live in a state where this is absolutely illegal, and TBH, I am absolutely SHOCKED that I had to deal with this. We’ve had other LGBTQ colleagues over the years, and it’s never been an issue as far as I know.

    9. RagingADHD*

      I think this is worth talking to the board about even if Matilda was a weak candidate and you wound up hiring someone else anyway. If Deidre is displaying illegal bias to you in that context, then there is a good chance she is making harassing / discriminatory comments to other employees out of your hearing.

    10. Kay*

      One of the reasons to talk to the board now, versus next time (because there WILL be a next time), is to at minimum establish a pattern. This is a liability, the board deserves to know and innocent people deserve to be protected.

    11. Unkempt Flatware*

      It doesn’t have to be snide or explicit. In fact, it likely won’t be and instead will be very very small microaggressions. If there is any indication that Matilda is being treated ANY less than anyone else, escalate it.

    12. Festively Dressed Earl*

      Go to the board, put it in writing, and get your colleague to do the same. “This is what happened [give as many specifics as you can, just expand on the first two paragraphs of your post], I’m letting you know because I’m concerned that Deidre’s discrimination may expose the org to legal liability in other areas.” IIUC, Matilda is already out so no problem there, and if Deidre causes problems for Matilda or another LGBTQ colleague, your third-party evidence could be powerful help down the line. Here’s hoping that it’s never necessary, but better safe than sorry.

    13. Limpet*

      I’m curious about feedback from HR people.

      CubeFarmer wrote, “Matilda had listed a few LGBT activities on her resume” and in a later post, “The bigotry was so, so subtle. It wasn’t, “I’m not going to hire this person because they’re LGBTQ!” It was, “Why put that on a resume? Why is it any different than anyone else?”.”

      Is that enough to take to the board? And I want to be sure I’m not minimizing what CubeFarmer saw and heard — let us know if there was more!

      1. Joron Twiner*

        I had a similar thought, and if that was all Deidre said then it would be hard to report her for it. However she objected to hiring Matilda for that reason, even though Matilda was objectively the most qualified candidate. That part is illegal bias that they can point to.

  10. Susan Calvin*

    Question to everyone, but particularly recruiters and/or people in the software space – is it just me, or is September/October some kind of busy season for hiring and recruiting?

    Obviously for entry level jobs, you have seasonality in line with the academic calendar, but mid and senior level roles, I’d expect to be counter-cyclical to that, if anything. Is it something to do with annual budget cycles or something? Am I over-extrapolating from the limited sample size of mine and a few colleagues’ linkedin DMs?

    1. pally*

      The fiscal new year for many companies starts in October. Which means there’s money now available to hire folks. And new projects starting which require senior level hires.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The only Sep/Oct stuff I’ve ever dealt with is for federal contractors. The government fiscal year ends on Sep 30, and a lot of contracts are tied to that. So there are sometimes headcount requirements that have to be met on that date. You have to have X hardware techs, or Y senior analysts, or whatever, on the team. So I was hired once with an accelerated onboarding to get me in place by Sep 30, and I’ve done a bunch of hiring in July-Sep to meet that date too.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I worked for a federal contractor as a trainer. The federal fiscal year starts November 1, and training new staff in late November and December is a huge PITA. There are holidays, established staff have to use time off, new staff might have arranged for time off during the training, and everyone is kind of distracted by the season. We only ran training classes during that time when we had a crunch like a new contract. And even then it was a slog.

        1. Fed, son of a Fed*

          In the US, the federal fiscal year has started on October 1 since sometime in the early 1970s. I know this because my father worked almost his entire career in the federal government, and I was a federal employee for 18 years, and I have been a contractor to the federal government for another 24 years. Trust me – I *know* when the FY starts.

    3. HR Friend*

      I hire software engineers. We just opened up a couple roles because of how the Nov/Dec holiday season slows down the process. So it’s like.. now or January.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        This right here. If you haven’t made a hire before about Nov 15, you aren’t going to until Jan 15.

    4. DannyG*

      The U.S. government fiscal year starts on October 1. If your field is related or impacted by this that might explain why this is happening.

    5. LadyB*

      When I worked in recruitment advertising (admittedly a long time ago), we saw peaks after the summer and Christmas holidays. we figured that people took some time away from work and realised they needed to change job. Once they’d resigned, we say a rise in new jobs being created.

    6. LingNerd*

      I’ve generally heard that hiring slows down in the summer because people are on vacation so coordinating everything takes longer, but it picks back up in September

    7. Blue Pen*

      I’m in higher ed, and while I wouldn’t say it’s an objectively busy season, I know that hiring slows down considerably over the summer (as well as the holidays), so it’s more back to normal than anything—which can definitely feel busy for HR!

    8. Procedure Publisher*

      Some job searching newsletters that I am subscribe to talked about a surge in hiring happening in September.

      However, I’ve noticed I’m seeing more jobs in my job alerts at the moment.

  11. chocolate muffins*

    Work joys thread! I gave a presentation that I felt good about and had a lovely dinner with colleagues where the company and the food were both excellent. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. Love Teaching History*

      I teach at a tiny private school. One of my students lost a parent this week. Three of his classmates banded together to figure out ways to support him, and then held a meeting with faculty & staff yesterday afternoon to share their ideas and explain how we can be involved. I was so proud of them for showing him so much love and compassion!

    2. T. Wanderer*

      I take notes for my team at a different group’s (usually disorganized…) weekly meeting, and my team spend a few minutes this week thanking me and telling me how helpful my notes are :)

    3. Chicky*

      The three faculty I support being away at a conference, so I can get a bunch of stuff done without having lots of messages pop up for immediate tasks. They’re generally great to work for, but I’m still learning the job so having quiet time to really dig in is very nice!

    4. Lemonwhirl*

      I took two vacation days this week to get a draft done of. presentation for one of my masters degree classes. it took the full two days, and now I have an okay draft that I can improve.

    5. Somehow I Manage*

      We have a really cool and unique opportunity that was presented to us, and that was presented to the board yesterday. While not everyone was there and no formal action was taken, we got enough support to take the next step forward so formal action can be taken. It is something I’ll have a big hand in overseeing, and while that’s scary because … with what time? … but I’m really excited about it if we do get the approval to move forward.

    6. call me wheels*

      Completed my first week of freelance games writing work :) pretty much exactly on schedule so far, found the work fun if a bit challenging, excited to continue next week! I kept feeling like I had to pinch myself, that I had spent all day writing about these characters I love which would usually be a sign of huge procrastination, except this week it was what I was getting paid to do!

    7. Irish Teacher.*

      I just enjoy my 2nd year group so much. They are engaged and interested and well-behaved and really funny.

      They asked me today when we are going to start our entry for this year’s Young Philosopher Awards, which…doesn’t take place until the Spring.

    8. Dust Bunny*

      This is the usual around here, but we just have a really great department. One person just moved on to a different job and we were sorry to see them go, but their replacement is someone who was a really good intern of ours a few years ago and was then hired into a different department (but same employer) when ours didn’t have any openings. Now we have that person back and they’ve picked up right where they left off.

    9. Anonymask*

      I had a meeting with the tech support for our cloud-based system today and we actually resolved the issue! Something that had been dragging on for weeks, handled with a single phone call and turning on a permission from their end.

      (Long story short, they’re kinda… unhelpful on the best days. Getting them to Do The Thing and fix their product is like pulling teeth. I’m taking the small win.)

      1. Le le lemon*

        I have been there! It is SUCH a win when you get someone to do that little, seemingly insignificant-thing-to-them that totally changes the game for you. Yay for you!

    10. Leia Oregano*

      I organize large-scale campus-wide university admissions open house events, and one of the departments that typically participates decided to bow out of their normal programming for our second event due to the attendance they saw at the first. That’s not a problem and totally understandable, and I let them know that. I was also able to offer them an alternative way to participate that involves fewer resources and less staff involvement, and they decided to try it out and see how it goes! So they’re still participating and it will cost them less time and money, and our prospective students still get to learn about their (very, very cool and innovative) programs!

    11. The Prettiest Curse*

      Me and my boss combined forces to finally get a collaborative event with one of our partner organisations on the schedule. Very happy that we managed to get this one over the line, because it looked like it wasn’t going to happen!

    12. Data Slicentist*

      Our company had a hackathon this week (during work hours) that was a ton of fun. I got to work with a bunch of folks I don’t normally see, share expertise, and learned a ton about other parts of the company!

    13. Blue Pen*

      I’m working on a content project that’ll publish later next week. It allowed me to be more creative than usual, and I’ve had a lot of fun putting it together. I think it’s going to be received well, too.

    14. Always Tired*

      My new admin was out for almost 2 weeks, visiting out of town family on a trip that was booked before she started. We went from bossman constantly asking about how much work she was doing and what additional tasks I (HR) and the finance guy were able to get done (basically checking to see if she was worth the cost) to him constantly asking when she would be back. Cause it turns out she is absolutely worth it. Also, she’s back today.

    15. Lady Danbury*

      This week has been super productive, which is always a win. I crossed some major projects off my list and finally caught up with everything that popped up during a recent 2 week vacation.

    16. Tired*

      I’m an academic, and I’ve been informally mentoring a researcher from another country where the economy is rocky & academic infrastructure limited. They’ve spent over a year raising money, doing fieldwork, being their own technician and finance team etc etc, and we were finally ready to analyse their full dataset on Friday – and the software ran first time and the results are BEAUTIFUL, without any of the extra thinking and tweaking and extra samples we often need. I’m so happy for them, this is going to be a really great paper one day!

    17. RagingADHD*

      I got access to Jira and am setting it up to show my team on Monday.

      The hard part is going to be convincing them they can use it immediately to visualize work before everything is built out with checklists and dependencies.

    18. MikeM_inMD*

      I write automated tests for software. One of the engineers completed some new processes for our UI, and after some trial and error I was able write the new tests for them despite him using a rather unconventional format in the output. And as a bonus, I finished it about 2 hours before quitting time on Friday.

    19. Six Feldspar*

      I had a lovely time this week writing a detailed report on the issues with a project that has been plagueing our team for more than three years. Who knows if anything will come of it but I had great fun listing all of the problems in professional language!

  12. FMNDL*

    Here is one for this crowd: I am about to have to train/onboard my new boss, who will be hired to fill my job. I am going back to an individual contributor role at my own request for many reasons.

    How do I find the balance between being transparent with this new person about the job (I can only share my own experience of it) and not just dumping on them all my biases about why the role didn’t work for me?

    1. Number22*

      You don’t owe them an explanation. You say “The role wasn’t a good fit for me.” End of it. If there is something wrong with the job itself, the responsibilities or the way it was structured, they’ll figure it out eventually and you don’t need to pre-dispose them to that.

      1. FMNDL*

        OK. But I’m being asked to train them. I don’t think I’ll be allowed to just let them figure it out.

        1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          But you can let them figure out if it does/does not work for them and still train them.

          Train them on what the role is and what is required. If there are nuances that are job specific include them. (e.g. The policy is that you submit requests for all departments through a help ticket, however I have found that you have to also email teapot storage or they will not see your help ticket)

          If there are nuances that caused you frustration that do not a have a functional training component let it go. Bob in teapot sales might be an incompetent jerk. Your boss can figure that out for themselves and it is important to let them.

          Relevant example. When I started this job I was told by multiple people that one manager that I would have to work with was horrendously impossible to work with. Stubborn. Didn’t listen. Did whatever they wanted despite policy. That colored our initial interactions.

          On my own I took a step back and tapped into my own past experience and realized that how this manager portrayed and received information is somewhat related to their cultural background. I changed my approach to what has been successful in the past and now we have a fantastic working relationship and mutual respect and I would list them as one of the best managers to work with. But getting the biased feedback ahead of time suppressed my own experience and instincts. I went in expecting problems and combativeness and saw problems and combativeness.

        2. Number22*

          You can train them on the responsibilities of the job (here is how you request new hire equipment, here is where you find the weekly inventory spreadsheets and you need to send them to X by Friday at 5pm, you need to schedule performance evaluations every quarter) without going into details on why it didn’t work for you. From over here, separating out the “what” from the “why I hated it” seems reasonable.

    2. KitKat*

      I would try to be transparent where I have clear examples and it’s relevant for them to know, and otherwise let stuff go / let them find out for themselves. For example: we’ve had difficulty getting the teapot department to move our requests forward through their process, and we’ve tried XYZ but so far haven’t seen improvement. And NOT: the leader of the teapots team is a rude, difficult PITA and I’m pretty sure they’re trying to take over all pottery production by stonewalling other department leads to slow their output and make them look bad.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Be transparent about what the challenges are, but be matter of fact about it. Maybe break it down into “here’s what you might be able to change” versus “here’s what you will have to deal with/work around.”

    4. Hendry*

      Were you involved in the interview process at all? If not, hopefully whoever was informed the new boss what was going on or at least gave her some context

    5. Czech Mate*

      I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you were in a managerial role. Some people just don’t like that, and that’s fine. Some things that you may be biased against (ex. managing bad employees) may be things that the other person expects and is specifically trained to do. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “You’ll need to do performance reviews. To be honest, this wasn’t something I enjoyed and I don’t think my process worked well, so you could certainly look at doing it differently.”

    6. Quinalla*

      I did this, though for me the role was taking as interim only. Still though, I did end up briefly explaining why I didn’t want the role so he knew there was no hard feelings. I also was frank with him about challenges I experienced in the role (regional office manager and main office communication was challenging) and advised him on what had worked and not worked for me. Try to approach it that way, give them the useful info that you have and let them use or not.

  13. Former Office Spacer*

    I spent several years working as a temp, and then full-time, in corporate offices. About 20 years ago, I followed my heart and left for a not-for-profit industry where most of the managers and supervisors have never had real jobs in the business world (apart from retail or service jobs in school). While the corporate environment deserves a lot of its satirical hits, over time I’ve realized that a lot of things were so much more organized than in the loosey-goosey world I’m in now. I’ve sometimes made the joke from Ghostbusters: “I’ve worked in the private sector. They expect results.”

    For example, communicating in the corporate world: any info staff needed for my job was supposed to come from the supervisor, but if the supervisor didn’t get us the information we needed, and our performance suffered, that was the supervisor’s responsibility. Where I’m at now, if the supervisors don’t share the information, which they often don’t, we just flail around. Also, in more structured workplaces, if there was a computer program I needed access to, or certain equipment, I never had to think about those things. So if, say, the scanner stopped working, I would go to the supervisor, and they contacted someone who took care of that kind of thing. Now there’s no real expectation that we’ll be provided with the tools we need, so we dig around in desk drawers, scavenging for bits and pieces that departed staff may have left behind.

    My question is: it’s been so many years since I worked in a corporate environment, and with all the societal changes (downsizing, technology replacing staff positions, etc.), I’m wondering if the average corporate office still has the structure of basic organization that I was used to. Maybe they’ve gotten just as unstructured and chaotic as my current field! Just as a person in the world, shopping or making an appointment, it seems like a lot of businesses have gotten pretty disorganized. So I’m interested in any insights from people in corporate office jobs, especially at the lower level, about whether that functioning structure is still there.

    1. amoeba*

      We still have that organisation, yes! However, we’re pretty big (like, multinational, 5 digit number of employees worldwide), so pretty sure it can also be less organised in smaller for-profit companies.

    2. Tio*

      What I’ve found bouncing around corporate jobs is that the bigger the organization, the more established processes and hierarchies and responsibilities they have. SO sometimes small businesses mimic a lot of the problems you see in start ups and non-profits, mostly because they often don’t have the experience to establish those systems until a “use case” shall we say comes up. So if you’re looking longingly at structure and defined jobs, look at larger companies.

      1. MsM*

        Or just ask a lot of questions about process and how top-down the management style is. Even in the most dysfunctional nonprofit I worked for, if I was stalled waiting on a supervisor’s approval, it was usually because they just needed to give the final sign-off; I didn’t need to go through them to ask others on their team for information. And if I couldn’t get help fixing something broken, it wasn’t because management didn’t see it as their job; it was because we just didn’t have the money.

    3. Former Local*

      I think generally if the company is big enough to have centralized services (IT, a proper HR department, someone whose job is internal communications) then it’s going to be organized very similarly to what you’re expecting. ie – there is someone whose job description includes fixing the scanner, and another person whose job description includes telling you about open enrollment deadlines, etc.

      but people are still people, and there’s definitely still lots of “no one ever told me” haha.

    4. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      “not-for-profit industry where most of the managers and supervisors have never had real jobs in the business world (apart from retail or service jobs in school)”
      Perhaps the problem isn’t the not-for-profit, but your attitude towards your colleagues? You say you’ve been away from the corporate world for years, but this sounds like the flip side of the post elsewhere on the comments today, about the annoying person who’s constantly talking about how things were done at previous job. Except that person was much newer in their role, so there was some excuse.

      1. Tio*

        Eh, not really the same. There’s a lot of stuff when running a business that are brand new to you if you’ve never seen those policies that you simply wouldn’t necessarily think of ahead of time. Think of how many companies don’t seem to understand HR policies – you (usually) avoid things like that when you have a larger company with people who’ve had more experience in it, usually because larger companies have the money to pay for that experience as well. But you don’t know what you don’t know, and more people = more experience with different situations and more ideas. Obviously nothing is a monolith, but this is a pretty common thing. And it’s necessarily a negative towards their colleagues that they may not know how to implement structures like that if they have no experience with them.

      2. Former Office Spacer*

        Sorry, I didn’t mean to be annoying! I shouldn’t have said “real jobs.” I was just intending to state a fact, to clarify the difference in environments. The managers here have largely literally never worked outside our specialized field, except for jobs like being Starbucks baristas in college. The only exception I can think of is someone who was briefly a teacher, so still in a vocational kind of space. Just reading Ask a Manager makes me think there’s a lot of differences between this and more structured business environments. And I’m not saying it’s all bad. It’s great that people are putting their vocation first! That’s why I got into this field, because I care about it!

        I was mainly curious just how much the structurelessness is still specific to my current industry, or if the more corporate world has gotten less structured itself in things like chain of command, communication, etc.

        1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

          Most not-for-profits have tight budgets and use the business equivalent of band-aids instead of having an in-house trauma clinic. The institutions with more, and more organized, executive staff were frequently looked at as taking money from their core mission, both from inside and outside. And most staff, in spite of grousing, took pride in doing their work on a shoestring and with disorganized leadership.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      While most non-profits are professionally run, some – especially small ones – do seem to be run by amateurs.
      I’ve wondered if that is because their minds are too much on the lofty non-profit aims rather than on the nitty-gritty, or whether the generally lower pay / use of volunteers can sometimes lead to more widespread below-par performance than in other orgs.

    6. Wordybird*

      I work for a medium-sized for-profit and yes, if my laptop broke, I would contact IT who would send me a new one and yes, we have a hierarchy within the organization of who is in charge of what information but also…it’s pretty chaotic, too. I’m a type of specialized PM who spends most of my time supporting a system and structure that other people regularly circumvent. In the last 6 months, I can’t tell you one single project of the probably 50 I’ve worked on that hasn’t either dragged out 2, 3, or 4 times as long as it was supposed to, made me wait 4+ weeks for deliverables, asked me to skip “required” steps, moved from a regular timeline to a last-minute rush timeline, required me to Frankenstein documents together for a same-day deadline, and/or several of the above. This most often happens because a handful of VPs or C-suite have too much work to do and not enough time to do it in but won’t delegate and insist on signing off on every project regardless of whether it’s within their purview or not. It’s so frustrating and has made me lose a lot of respect for the organization.

  14. curiousgeorge*

    Does anyone have advice on how to reduce the burden on candidates for asking for interview accommodations? I have a vague memory of there being a post on here with some really good ideas (maybe last month) but I can’t find it. We want to do more to show candidates we are serious about offering them an even playing field at interview, so what can we say in our invitations and what policies/procedures should we be implementing?

      1. Lemonwhirl*

        yes, give all teb questions up front, to everyone.

        you also might consider putting together a brief explanation of things like where to park, how to find the office, whom to ask for, the agenda/structure/timing of the interview. you can include a sentence in there about how to request accommodations.

        1. call me wheels*

          This! I appreciate as much logistical information as possible so I can plan what transport to take, what mobility aids I might need and so on. It’s very helpful when it’s provided up front and I don’t feel like I’m making an extra fuss when I ask for details

        2. M2*

          We put info where to park, etc and send main questions to everyone but let them know that won’t be all the question. Interviewers are allowed to ask follow-up questions or clarifying questions as well so people understand there might be more.

          I also hire people where we have something they need to work on while there. Usually everyone is given 15 -20 minutes to do it and then discusses their findings. Then I go over it with them. But people who interview for this should have experience in this exercise and it’s not work we need to do but we created some “fake” work just for this scenario to see how long it takes them do to/ their findings because when it comes time to do it each thing must be done pretty quickly. And no we don’t give it early because people shouldn’t be spending hours on this. That will not be helpful to understand if they can get it done quickly and correctly. But again we are upfront with this and they do it on site and ask what they need for it- if they listen to music or watch a show when they usually do that type of work they are allowed to have their phone or system with headphones.

          I find being upfront as much as possible is really important. That’s how I manage- I communicate and hope others communicate with me. I understand why people
          Don’t disclose everything right away so I try and make it fair for everyone and do what I can.

        3. Bruce*

          I see the value of giving the questions up front, but also chuckle that in the 80s I hired into a place that had a very specific Question they asked everyone being hired into a technical job. It was done during a panel interview and afterwards we’d dissect how the candidate did on The Question… The whole panel interview was also set up with a “Jerk”, a “Nice Guy” and an observer to see how people handled personalities. In hindsight it was a symptom of the culture, not something to emulate.

    2. I should really pick a name*

      “If there are accommodations that will make this process easier you such as please let us know”

      Basically, state that you will make accommodations, and include some examples so they won’t think what they need is too much.

      1. kalli*

        A statement like this doesn’t decrease the burden on a candidate, and honestly it’s barely worth the pixels. I state in my cover letter, on my profile and when accepting an interview that I need accommodations and I have literally shown up to interviews and the hiring manager has gone “are you disabled? wow, well done for trying and putting yourself out there!” and no accommodations provided and no job because “this job involves people so you can’t do it, but if we need data entry we’ll call you!” Another interview was for an organisation – that contacted me!! – who openly declare how accessible and inclusive they are on their website and all their job ads, but could not tell me if the role they contacted me for could accommodate my disability or whether I could get into the building, as the interviewer had never been there and did not know what work was available!

        If it is going to be a ‘please let us know’, having a question and space to put it in the application itself, if there’s an online form in the process, proactively checking when making a time for interview, and clearly conveying information regarding accessibility, expectations, and available measures with the job ad or in applicant information packs, and at the very least prior to interview are useful. Having at least one person conducting the interview able to speak to the practicalities of the role is helpful as well!

    3. SoundsGoodBut*

      Be prepared to be ignored no matter what you do. I will not disclose until I have a job offer unless I have no other choice because I’ve never gotten an offer from anyone who knew/figured out my primary disability (vision). I also use a walker so if I come in person that will automatically be disclosed. I have every once in a while run into something unexpected that meant I had to disclose on the spot (like having to fill out a paper application – why?????) but I will fake it if there’s any chance I can do so.

    4. TheGirlintheAfternoon*

      Great question! Proactively offer info that folks may need to request accommodations for (I’ve taken to including language that indicates that Interview Facility or Building is fully accessible, for instance, as well as trying to schedule any activities on the ground floor in case the elevators are out of order, near an accessible restroom if it’s an older building, etc.)

    5. hi there*

      There are some things that you can do universally like other commenters have said. We provided the interview questions in advance for our most recent hiring (three roles), and that was amazing. We ask candidates if they can appear in-person in our admin office, as a question, which then allows them to say they couldn’t (some can’t for scheduling/job reasons); then we say we can do a video call (Zoom) as an alternative.

      As a next-step, you could ask first: ‘Do you need anything specific in the room to ensure a comfortable interview?’ or some variation that passes your legal and HR teams.

    6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      State if the complete way from the disabled parking places to the interview rooms is barrier-free, i.e. lifts, ramps, no steps whatsoever. State if there interview room has, or will have on request, large print on screen, loop for hearing aids etc

    7. KatherineJ*

      A nice side benefit of giving the questions ahead of time, is the interview is faster, because they spend less time thinking of answers. Also it does give a glimpse into preparation skills and understanding/communication that I think are harder to get under the standard I terrier model.

    8. Nightengale*

      Include information about public transportation – don’t assume everyone drives and give only information getting to the space from the parking garage. (If there is no public transit, say that. Although I can’t tell you how often I have been somewhere that IS transit accessible but the people working there did not know that. . . )

      If there is anything that is going to need to be handwritten during the interview (from forms to an exercise) tell people up front. I can handwrite a sentence. I cannot handwrite a paragraph.

      Provide contact information in a variety of formats – don’t assume everyone can use a smartphone. This includes the ability to text and use QR codes. Include both a phone number and an e-mail address.

  15. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’ve been tasked with coming up with ways to improve my company’s culture. Two of the things I already know people want are off the table/out of my hands (more money, better communication). The COO said I should talk to people, but I’m not sure how to get other answers from people. Any ideas/questions I should ask?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      We have a whole culture committee at our company. Do not underestimate the value of anonymous feedback forms. Create the form in Google, pin it to a Slack channel, Google takes care of it being anonymous.

      Good questions to ask are things like conflicts between stated goals/policies and actual behavior, does management actually listen, is there confusing or contradicting information coming down from management.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        We’ve done anonymous surveys in the past, but very few people fill them out. We also have a suggestion box, but I don’t know if anyone has written anything yet (I can imagine people would be hesitant because their handwriting could be recognized).

        1. WorkerDrone*

          Any idea why people don’t fill them out? Try and address that, as it will also give you important context for things that need to change!

          Is it a smaller company and they’re afraid it won’t be truly anonymous? Is it that they already know there won’t be change, so why bother wasting time? Is it that they’re overworked and can’t find ten minutes?

          Figuring out why they won’t respond to the survey might be the first step in figuring out a larger cultural issue you can tackle.

          1. Why is easy*

            I don’t trust they’re anonymous. Even if the names are withheld it’s usually not too difficult to figure out who said what.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              People generally don’t trust surveys to be anonymous. My org has had some success with online surveys. (Our platform can anonymize surveys.)

              But sometimes questions are written in a way that people in small departments or with unique roles realize that their answers won’t be anonymous by default. Make sure your questions don’t skew that way.

            2. Lady Lessa*

              Second your comment. I think the same way, no matter the size of the company.
              Not to mention, not having a high trust in Google to keep things perfectly anonymous

    2. pally*

      What is it that your company would like to see improved in the company culture?
      Might want to get management to detail this for you. Otherwise, you’ve been tasked with something pretty nebulous. That’s not fair to you.

      Seems like you are hitting up against one of the non-negotiables already (better communication). No one knows what to tell you (directly or anonymously).

      You might ask folks to talk with you about their experiences working at other companies. What did they like about those places? What did they dislike? What would they change if they still worked there? What seemed to elevate the company culture? What seemed to harm it? Asking these things might be something where casual conversations would work best.

    3. noname today*

      Ask them, but start with the statement that mo money isn’t an option and what would be helpful? Judging from this group here, I’m going to say more flexibility around WFH/remote, start/end times, etc would be seen as a win! Also support when conflicting priorities or lack of resources means needing to restructure deadlines and deliverables.

      And “better communication” is too loose-goosey an answer. Drill down into what systems or processes would aid in that better communication—what product would encourage that? A series of regular 1:1 meetings with leadership? Regular status reports that people must contribute to? A resource for crowdsourcing solutions to some longstanding tech issues? Newsletter or standing office hours? A regular process for identifying and escalating issues/roadblocks before they become BIG problems?

    4. Rex Libris*

      Ah, the eternal “How do we make the employees happier without actually communicating with them or paying them more?” question. You have my sympathies.

      My best advice would be an anonymous paper form with multiple choice questions. People who don’t believe it’s truly anonymous will be more inclined to answer if they only have to circle a number or check a box. You can also have an open comment section after each question for the more trusting and/or adventurous.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      How is better communication off the table? What communication do people want – is it “Can the Llama team please do better about letting us know when it’s time to move the Alpacas” or “We would like a better idea of our 5 year plan?”

      1. Bruce*

        Yes, it is surprising to hear that communication is not being discussed. Most good managers would love to hear how to improve communication. If you do a survey ask for input on communication, you may get some responses that can get some attention.

    6. Pretty as a Princess*

      Culture reflects shared values/beliefs/patterns. It is how you describe “the way we do business here,” if you will.

      So what are the aspects of the culture that are weak/challenging/problematic? Not “the culture is bad” but what really are the things? Do you know what the problems are that are leading them to say “we need to improve culture”? Are there misalignments between what your organization’s leadership say they value, and what the behaviors of the organization demonstrate? Does the organization even have a uniform culture – or do different parts of the org have different norms?

      No suggestion of any kind is relevant at all until you know what the pain points are. And then, if you are being tasked with making recommendations about improving the pain points – you need to be able to be specific about actions that need to be taken. “Improving communication” unfortunately won’t cut it. And… paying people more won’t cut it. Not by itself anyway. There are plenty of toxic organizations where people make a LOT of money.

      There is an excellent sensemaking model called the Competing Values Framework (not posting a link so this doesn’t go through moderation but you can easily google). I use this in my work a lot (sometimes formally and sometimes informally). It is incredibly practical. Even if you don’t have the ability to go into a culture survey (clintberry dot com has an article about it with a revised survey tool) , the idea is that context really matters. What is in the context is important. To *change* culture, policies, practices, reward/incentive structures have to be aligned toward the outcomes you are seeking. You have to identify specific things that communicate new expectations, support people in behaving in new ways, and reward/incentivize behaving in those ways. I’m not even talking necessarily about money – I’m mostly NOT talking about money, though money can be one of the levers. I’m talking about ensuring that you are positively reinforcing the actions needed to move toward your desired outcome. The CVF is nice because it talks very practically about the things in the environment/context that contribute to culture. When you know where you are and where you want to go, you can pull those levers!

      For example: Let’s say one of the goals of my business is to reduce long term product ownership costs for an industrial product that I expect to be used for a decade. That often requires different kinds of investments early in the lifecycle to design something that is sustainable. It can make things a little more expensive up front, to get that payoff in the end. BUT, the product manager is rated on how much she can reduce her costs this year. (And next year it will be the same.) She has no incentive to do things that might be a little more expensive now (or even just cost the same!) in order to secure that long term reduced cost. The reason is because she’s PENALIZED by rating metrics that only consider the short term costs. If I want my product managers working to optimize costs of long term ownership, then one of the things I need to do is *change how my managers are evaluated*. And I need to communicate that clearly in my policies AND my training for the people who rate the product managers.

      Thank you for coming to my TED talk LOL. Good luck! I really like this kind of stuff and I think that you could be in for a really fun project if you are empowered to do good exploration and devise real strategic approaches.

    7. OhGee*

      I think it’s pretty valuable to poll everyone anonymously, and if more money and better communication come up as top choices, not only does the COO need to know that, but the results should be shared widely as a way to potentially hold the organization leadership accountable. People don’t thrive at work on good vibes alone!

    8. hi there*

      You might prime the pump with some small offerings. For example…

      “Better communication” might be solved by altering team communication standards. Here’s the change to try: CC everyone on the team with updates, not just the lead, so everyone gets the same information at the same time (and knows it). It’s a small thing that helps make information sharing the norm, rather than reinforcing silos or allowing fiefdoms. It’s not the norm, so again frame it as an experiment for a few weeks and then ask for feedback at that end date.

      Once you start with one idea, people might think about what else could help and make suggestions. I also recommend that you frame things around whatever your org/team mission, vision, and values are, as well as the current performance metrics/outcomes/goals.

    9. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      This sounds very much like a company who wants to keep asking the question until they get the answer they like.

      If you keep getting the feedback of better communication and more money then THAT IS THE ANSWER. Asking for different answers tells people that the company has no real interest in meaningful change. They are waiting until someone gives them an answer that they can fix with no effort, no money and no pain.

    10. Quinalla*

      How in the heck is better communication not on the table? I don’t even understand that…

      I like using the Start/Stop/Continue – what’s one (or more) thing that you want the company to start doing to improve the culture? Ditto stop doing & continue doing. Usually people focus too much on trying new things (start) when sometime stopping an annoying thing or emphasizing something you already do might get just as good if not better results.

      If you still don’t get anything, throw out a few ideas and see if anything is interesting to folks. Or give some of your own answers to start the convo.

    11. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Ask extremely specific questions in the smallest groups possible (ideally 1-1), seeking opinions that are diverse across identity/role/department/location lines. Like “how would you improve culture” doesn’t yield much, whereas “if you could wave a magic wand and make the COO do one thing right now that would improve your day to day experience at work, what would that be?” will get you useful stuff.

      If you have the authority to require responses and the trust that you’ll handle those responses well, you’ll get more useful feedback from a wider range of stakeholders than if it’s optional or people just see you as a mouthpiece for the COO. It’s a both-and; you can’t really require the responses and expect good answers if you don’t have the trust.

    12. NancyDrew*

      Remember that work culture isn’t about money or pizza Fridays. Instead, it’s about things like:

      -Can I make mistakes without fear of getting fired?
      -Does my manager encourage my professional development? Do resources exist to support me in growing?
      -Do I understand my role and my team’s role in meeting our company-wide goals? Is there clarity in what I’m responsible for? Do I have the tools I need to meet my own goals?
      -Do I feel comfortable asking questions?
      -Do we have company values, and if so, does leadership embody them? How could we all embody them better?

      I echo the others that it’s strange to say communications is off the table. Do you have a comms team? I’m sure they’d be thrilled to hear that :(

    13. Nightengale*

      I don’t know what the communication issues are in your organization but I want to share a big one in our organization in case it is true for yours as well

      we don’t know who to contact about stuff

      you get a giant e-mail with information about programs/policies/whatever and it’s from a central e-mail address so you can’t reply to that and it doesn’t include “for more information/questions/comments contact soandso@organization.org

  16. Chicky*

    I have two question areas:

    1 – I am applying for jobs where my most relevant experience is from 20 years ago. Do I still include that on my resume?

    2 – Does anyone work in Educational Technology or Instructional Design? How is the field at the moment – are there entry level jobs available? What do you like and not like about it? Are there remote jobs, specifically?

    I’m thinking of getting a masters in Ed Tech/ID through Western Governor’s University but not sure about the market for that kind of degree right now. Would I be able to find a job (hopefully remote), do you think? I don’t have any direct experience though I was a teacher and coach in adult education for several years.

    1. HE Admin*

      I work adjacent to this in the higher ed space. From what I have seen is there are entry jobs available, but the pay is absolutely terrible for them. You could also look at private companies that contract with universities to do this sort of stuff but their jobs tend not be as stable as working directly for a university (see, for example, 2U’s constant layoffs).

      1. Chicky*

        Hmm, that’s discouraging. Do you know of private companies that contract with universities or is there a good way to find them? I don’t mind a little instability to get my foot into the field if there are stable jobs at higher levels.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      For 1) I’d say yes – it’s not ideal, and I’d try to empathize anything you’ve done since then to stay up to date in or connected to the field, but returning to a previous career/specialization tells a very different story in an application than breaking completely new ground with a lateral entry.

    3. Annika Hansen*

      I work in IT at a university, but I do not work in Educational Technology nor Instructional Design. I did work in a department of instructional designers for several years. We don’t have a ton of turnover in the area so we usually don’t have positions available. The positions are hybrid not remote because they sometimes have to meet in person with the subject matter experts. You might have better luck with online only universities.

      In general, I would leave off the 20-years-ago experience as to not show my age unless it is super relevant. Like they are trying to create course material for a mathematics course, and you used to teach calculus.

    4. NaoNao*

      I’m in the Learning and Development “space” and I have worked in Instructional Design. Entry level would typically be something like Training Coordinator or working your way from an expert call center rep to a rep trainer to an ID (which is what I did, basically). Training Coordinator is someone who runs the schedules, books the rooms, manages the logistics, makes sure the rosters are correct, etc. They also do the admin work for the trainer.

      ID work there’s entry level, but they tacitly expect that you will have done similar work–making informal training, taken college classes, done some sort of comms/marketing/tech writing, etc. There’s not really entry level the way there is with admin jobs or sales.

      The thing I’d really be wary of: Instructional Design can be a very dead-end job. I’ve bumped up to manager level twice and been unprepared and flamed out (managing processes/product, not people) because the ID job is an independent contributor role and the people skills part of it isn’t as key as the design (it’s important, but it’s not a “political” job if that makes sense). There’s very few clear ladder rungs above it–basically managing other IDs and then managing an entire department or org, but those jobs are rare/few and most people do those for decades and don’t budge, or they hire someone from outside rather than promote up.

    5. Alex*

      I work in Ed Tech/ID, and love it. Not sure you really need the degree. In my experience, degrees without relevant experience are pretty worthless. There are a lot of former teachers in my office, and many of them have PhDs. I don’t know if anyone has an ID degree. I work more on the tech side of stuff and came from a tech-ish kind of background rather than a teaching background–it might be easier to break into through that path.

      My work is hybrid, though in theory it could be remote.

    6. Pretty as a Princess*

      The Ed Tech industry is, and has been for nearly forever, an extremely hot mess. The funding models are all garbage, really. (There are a LOT of people doing noble work in Ed Tech – don’t get me wrong. But the industry itself is just a terrible mess.) I wouldn’t get a degree specific to that. If you wanted to work in the field, you don’t need that degree. If you wanted to work in that field: Instructional design, UX, Human factors stuff, and software development are all fields that are extremely relevant in ed tech but won’t get limiting labels put on you. (Spent years very closely tied to the ed tech field for a very long time and *never* met anyone with a degree in ed tech, if that tells you anything. UX, software, public policy, human cognition, cybersecurity, teaching degrees… never talked to anyone with an ed tech degree.)

      If you can combine instructional design and UX/human factors, that is a combo with a much, much broader aperture than universities/schools. Lots of entities offer lots of kinds of training, not just schools! And Instructional design is useful for lots of things other than designing classes.

  17. Number22*

    I work closely with a colleague, and our responsibilities overlap significantly. We sort of “divide and conquer” and 90% of the time it works well. We each have the things we do all the time, and then we discuss new items as they come in or share the load when someone is busy with other work or out of office. We talk practically every day over Teams or in meetings, and have several checkpoints set up throughout the week. One area that is definitely my responsibility is communication with our internal partners. It isn’t that my colleague can’t, and there are very limited, specific situations in which they do, just by nature of our actual titles, this pretty much falls on me. I cc them on all emails regarding our work, but 1 out of a dozen times I forget. And they are ON me about it. Every. Single. Time. It doesn’t matter that I include them on 12. It doesn’t matter that we talk about everything before I tell the client. If they are left off, I hear about it. We have a fairly good working relationship and we’ve discussed trusting each other. Sometimes I’m simply busy, my mind is elsewhere, and when I’m emailing 6 people at once I forget to add them. I always apologize, but how can I get them to not be so confrontational about it? It isn’t personal on my end, but it seems like it feels personal to them. To me, it feels like there is no grace on the team when someone makes a mistake (I’ve seen them and others point out the smallest mistakes – there seems to be a team culture of “not my fault/I did it right” and that often entails pointing out whose fault it in fact is, even if it isn’t in a malicious way. I’ve been about a year.)

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you’re already doing the right thing. Apologize. Let them know you were working quickly, apologize for the oversight, and then tell them you’re going to CC them as the conversation moves forward so they’re in on it.

    2. HugeTractsofLand*

      Based on your description, they’re definitely overreacting, and if you’ve seen them nitpick others before then this is part of a broader culture of jumping on mistakes. Are they confronting you in person about it, or over email/chat? If it’s an electronic reprimand I’d respond as minimally as possible by just forwarding them the email with a brief “sorry, here you go.” If it’s in person- and maybe you should do this for long term peace of mind anyway- I’d use Allison’s approach of naming the pattern and expressing honest concern. Something like “Colleague, I’ve noticed that when I forget to add you to an email, it really upsets you. It’s always an accident and only happens 1 in 12 times, but maybe I’m missing something. Has it caused work issues for you when you’re not on the email? Are you not getting enough information from our daily check-ins?”

      Whatever happens, just know that this is a Them problem and not a you problem. We all make mistakes, and this says more about Their insecurity than your competence.

    3. Kay*

      One out of a dozen seems like A LOT. While it is possible they might be overreacting, there also could be a very good business explanation as to why they aren’t. If for any reason any of the information that would be contained in those emails, and any back and forth after that, would be relevant information for your colleague to have, I can see why being left off that often would get old, fast.

      1. Daphne*

        It seems like a lot to me, too. And, there isn’t any improvement. Apologies without change are empty words.

      2. Velociraptor Attack*

        I can’t tell if it’s a lot or a little without knowing more about how often it happens. If there are a dozen emails a month, and they get left off one instead of it happening more than once a week, that changes.

        That said, OP, I would encourage you not to be so annoyed that they are mentioning when they are not included and that it doesn’t matter to them that they’re included on all the others. Of course, that doesn’t matter; they’re supposed to be included on all of them!

      3. Moths*

        I agree here. I know you may have just been spitballing numbers, but regularly being left off of 1/12 of emails would really be more than would be acceptable to me as well and would start to feel personal to me too. The communications you send may be different, but I also usually see back and forths start happening from those email chains or even them just making sure everyone is on the same page. Not having that info easy to access or being left out of chains, no matter how unintentional, would get really frustrating if it happens repeatedly after being addressed. I’m not saying their response is appropriate and it sounds like there are deeper team dynamics that are probably bleeding over and causing the situation to be even more frustrating on your side (with no grace around mistakes), but it sounds like it’s to the point where you need to figure out a change to your approach so that it doesn’t happen as much. I would proactively go to them and say something like, ” Colleague, I know there have been times in the past where I’ve left you off of emails and that it’s been frustrating for you. I’ve gone ahead and put in place a system where I will do ….. to ensure that you’re not left off in the future. I think this will be a good approach for me and help prevent this from happening again, but if something slips through again, please flag it for me and I’ll modify my approach further to block those holes.” This way they know that you are making an effort. It will also give you something to push back on them with if they respond inappropriately next time. You can reference back that you’re truly making an effort and to please give you the understanding that you asked for.

      4. Number22*

        They get emails from me once a week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes none a week. So I forget probably every 3-4 months. We do have a distribution email address that is used for urgent issues. What I’m emailing is usually minor clarifications on documentation that I need to update, or mailing out the documentation for approval before sending it to my colleague. So she gets the final notes by nature of the workflow either way.

    4. DefinitiveAnn*

      If you are using Outlook you can set up a rule to cc someone on every email you send. Then it’s only on you to remove them if you don’t want them on it.

  18. RM*

    I’m in the UK so please no US based legal advice :).

    My organisation had a new head of DEI start about a year ago. Recently, driven by her, HR have announced that toilets are to be segregated by gender assigned at birth, with the concession that trans people could walk elsewhere to the small number of single occupancy unisex toilets (likely outing themselves in the process). Some of us have tried to push back on this and all responses from HR/DEI have contained what I regard as transphobic dogwhistles and claims that women will be assaulted if we have an inclusive toilet policy. It is also fairly clear that they have support for this at the top level (the most generous interpretation is that it’s an old-school organisation who completely rely on DEI to be expert on these matters). I am not trans myself but am horrified at this policy.

    Does anyone have any advice on:
    – Helping others understand how serious this is? It’s clear to me that this is being driven by an anti-trans ideology, but a lot of people who do oppose the policy seem to think it’s more of a misunderstanding. I don’t know a work appropriate way of getting this across.
    – Emotionally coping with the whole thing.
    – Any magical ways to further escalate this that may have been missed? It has been discussed at the executive level with no changes made.

    1. MsM*

      I think if the organization is using DEI to enforce discrimination, and the higher-ups either endorse that or consider it not their problem, you’re fighting a losing battle here. Support your trans colleagues as best you can by speaking up where opportunities present themselves and being a safe place for them to turn, but channel the bulk of your energy into finding a workplace with better values and/or supporting change on a larger external scale.

    2. bamcheeks*

      You could certainly contact the LGBT Foundation or Stonewall for advice.

      (Stonewall is more engaged in general work culture than the LGBT Foundation, but I’ve also heard they are less good on trans issues since Nancy Kelley left as CEO, so I would definitely contact both.)

    3. PX*

      Ooof this sucks. As bamcheeks said, I think your best bet is to try and find an external source to confirm that what is happening is out of line with best practice and then see if that gets any traction.

      But unfortunately it looks like you have a transphobic DEI person who is unlikely to change, so other than being an ally in any other way you can, this is unlikely to change unless you want to go on a mission to find a way to get them fired :/

    4. Not A Manager*

      If even a small number of your colleagues agree with you, one thing you could do is all of you only use the single-occupancy toilets yourselves. That will at least normalize using them so hopefully it’s less noticeable who is using them and why. If it’s seen as a small protest again the policy, well, so be it.

      1. Can't remember my username*

        This horrifies me. How exactly are they planning to check on this?
        Do you have a union? Even if you don’t have local reps, there will usually be somewhere you can call, and possibly even legal advice.
        (I’m in the uk).

      2. Bike Walk Barb*

        I had this same thought. Make using those toilets an everyday occurrence. That doesn’t address the larger horrifying problem of a “DEI” professional being the one advancing this policy but it’s solidarity.

    5. GetCreative*

      I would organize a group of willing employees so everyone uses the single sex stalls all the time (as long as it doesn’t impede access to them for those who need them – for instance, they may be significantly easier for some disabled folks to use, plus the trans/non-binary/etc folks who are uncomfortable with the gendered options).

      Also, how are they going to police this? Would willful non-compliance be feasible or would it have real consequences that make it too risky?

      Regardless, I’d look at these types of solutions more than appealing to leadership using data/logic/appeals.

      Good luck!

    6. Stuart Foote*

      I am not trans, but I would much rather use the single stall toilets, and suspect most others would feel the same. I doubt that only trans people will be using those.

    7. EllenD*

      Have you looked at the Equality & Human Rights Commission website? It’s https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/ I’m sure there will be advice there on loo provision and designation. It was an issue in an office I worked in 20 years ago, where attitudes to trans issues was more reactionary. Since the loos had cubicles, I never understood the issue that other people had, but some people have these concerns and need to be reassured.

    8. Angstrom*

      The “women will be assaulted in restrooms by men pretending to be trans” scare tactic makes me furious. Are women assaulted by men in restrooms? Yes! By cis men who don’t use any kind of disguise or ploy — they identify a victim and simply walk in after them. Aaarrgghhh….

      And if you can tell what’s inside someone’s pants in a public restroom, you’re dong something wrong.

    9. Ellis Bell*

      As horrifying and jaw dropping as this messaging from your company is, there is some good news mixed in here, in that it’s generally considered good practice to provide staff with individual non-gender assigned stalls. This is so that gender fluid or non binary employees don’t have to choose one of two options that don’t apply to them, which can cause dysphoria. They’re also just really much better for anyone and everyone who likes privacy and I would protect them at all costs; I think shunning them and looking at them as exclusionary overlooks the fact that some people really need them. I agree with Not A Manager that the use of them should be normalised and supports anyone who has been made to feel like they are the Banishment Toilets that Out you. I don’t think the toilet provision is actually an issue, it’s more the language being used (how would they even know who was AFAB?!) and that there are dog whistles flying round suggesting people will be wrongly accused of all sorts. Journalists would be very interested in this, I’d consider outing the company’s transphobic wording, or getting the unions to out them unless they backtrack.

    10. Anon for This*

      Are birth certificates required for your employment at this organization? If not, how do they know what sex was assigned at birth? I would ask how the DEI head is implementing this – is she doing checks to determine sex, or are they bringing in a doctor? Are they keeping lists of who can use which toilets? I’d demand an accounting of how many people have been assaulted in the toilets in the absence of this policy, and why weren’t you all advised of these incidents? And I would start a movement where everyone insists on using the unisex toilets. (I hope they are far away, and queues form, so that it takes time away from the mission.)

      But as you can tell, I can be petty.

    11. Generic Name*

      How do they plan to check that someone’s gender assigned at birth aligns with their outward presentation of gender??

    12. Kez*

      A lot of great suggestions here, and I do appreciate the concept of creating a movement to maliciously comply by rallying everyone to spend twice as long for each restroom break waiting in lines for the non-segregated toilets.

      One tactic that it seems like you haven’t tried is pointing out what impression this policy will give to visitors/customers/clients of the organization. Is this a policy that they intend to impose on everyone using the facilities? If the plan is to only enforce it on employees, what unfortunate soul is stuck giving a new colleague the birth certificate bathroom break policy intro at what stage in new employee orientation? What will you do if employees leave over this? Is the devising and implementation and God-forbid enforcement of this policy going to be seen as a responsible use of donor/investor money? If I were to come in as an outside stakeholder to a situation like this I would NOPE myself out the door and tell anyone I know to avoid this organization like the plague.

      I’m sorry that this is happening at your workplace, and I’m sorry that the political climate has led to your concerns not being taken seriously.

    13. fhqwhgads*

      That’s the opposite of DEI. If HR and the DEI people are the ones who WANT that, there’s no hope here.

    14. Sharon*

      You could all band together and just start using only the single stall unisex toilets, which is obviously the best option for people are uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with others.

    15. Hroethvitnir*

      Eugh, this made me feel sick. I second the suggestion someone made downthread about banding together to boycott the gendered toilets if you can. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this along with the overall intense transphobia in the UK.

      You don’t have to be trans to be disgusted and scared, though obviously being trans in the UK is just getting worse and worse, including gps refusing to provide long transitioned people their hormone prescriptions. /I’ll stop but ahhhhh

      Non-gendered bathrooms are just way more convenient anyway except when dealing with old layouts that don’t really work, and I’m really enjoying seeing it become more common (in Aotearoa here).

    16. Former Local News Reporter*

      If you have a local newspaper worth its salt, this is probably a story they would be interested in writing about. Might be worth checking with. Same with media outlets that specifically focus on LGBTQ issues. Get in touch, explain the situation, see if someone is interested in covering this. And if you’re worried about having to go on the record, being quoted but not named is a fairly common practice in sensitive cases like this one. I‘d expect that once a journalist gets in touch with your company and asks them to comment on this issue, this will make them pay more attention.

  19. pancakes*

    I am a support role in a fairly niche industry and my role is frequently in high demand/often stolen between firms and especially so in recent months in my city. I’m also incredibly good at my job, to the point where several people in the C-Suite know who I am when they shouldn’t, simply because of my reputation.

    My friend suggested I apply for an open position at her firm and it seems like they are eager to get someone in ASAP due to someone unexpectedly not coming back to work after an extended leave.

    Obviously, I have an interest in staying at my current firm through the end of the year. If I left now, I am losing out on $2,000 minimum in holiday bonuses, possibly more. My firm gave huge bonuses to support staff in 2020 and 2021 as they were great years in revenue. One of my supervisors said in a recent meeting for people higher up, they talked about how it was another record breaking year and she thinks they will give huge bonuses again but that’s not confirmed.

    I will also be losing a lot of retirement money not fully vested.

    I feel like it’s worth mentioning and asking if this is something a new firm could compensate for but I don’t really know how or if it’s a stupid idea since I’m a support team member.

    Any thoughts would be SO appreciated!

    2. PX*

      if you are in demand it is *super normal* to ask for sign on bonuses (or other perks) to compensate for things you will lose out on by taking a new job. just make sure you have the right number in mind.

      losing the unvested money though, that’s something to think carefully about.

    3. Seven times*

      This is absolutely something that you can and should discuss in negotiations. I would play up “record breaking year” and play down “not confirmed”.

      As a side note, signing bonuses are often contingent on staying at a role for a set amount of time. Be aware of that and have everything in writing!

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      Tell them you’re interested but not available to start until after Jan 1 or whenever bonus date is. 1.5months is nothing! Heck the interview process might even take that long. Firm can get temps in the meantime….

      1. WindmillArms*

        Yes! Take the interview(s), see what happens, and don’t be afraid to mention the bonuses as a negotiating point. If they’re interested in hiring you, they will likely be willing to bend on either your start date so you get the bonus, or compensation. This is very normal, even if you’re “just” a support role. (And PS, if you have a great reputation for an in-demand role, you’re not “just a support role”!)

      2. Roland*

        +1 to just trying this first. If they’re like “no u gotta start nov 7th or nada” then sure use the other advice about asking them to compensate for the bonus, but it likely won’t come to that.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I will also be losing a lot of retirement money not fully vested.

      imo that sounds a lot more significant than losing bonuses: it’s not just the amount you have there, but calculating what that would be worth when you retire – it could be much higher than any realistic signing bonus. (I’m currently enjoying my generous work pensions) Can you wait until you are vested?

    6. Scholarly Publisher*

      How long until that retirement money is vested — does it vest on January 1, or would you have to stay at your company for another couple of years to get it?

  20. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    Question for recruiters or other folks: An internal recruiter reached out to me two weeks ago on LinkedIn regarding a job that I thought would be a good fit. The recruiter said to let them know if I’d be interested in chatting about the role. I responded indicating that I’d be interested in talking further once I saw it (2 days after it was sent). It’s been 2 weeks and… no response from the recruiter. It looks like the job is still up. Honestly, I’m not urgently looking for a job, so while I could send my resume and cover letter in, my feeling is that the recruiter is trying to recruit me and I should just have this opportunity leave my mind until they respond. Is this off base? Should I be following up?

    1. Seven times*

      There’s almost no harm in reaching out again. This isn’t the hiring official and you weren’t going to apply to this job if they didn’t get back to you, so you essentially lose nothing!

      1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

        Well, quick update – I did reach back out to the recruiter, and almost immediately got a response back that they had already hired for the role. I’m not going to worry about it.

    2. Stuart Foote*

      If you want the job, you should not count on the recruiter. In my experience (and based on what I see elsewhere), most recruiters only have a vague idea of what the job requires and almost never follow up.

  21. PropJoe*

    Our department is in the process of hiring for a recently vacated admin assistant position. Three finalists were interviewed late last week & early this week. Hiring manager (my boss) has made her selection of who she wishes to hire, has completed reference checks, and is now waiting on HR to do their part, which would culminate in HR extending the formal offer to the preferred candidate. If all goes smoothly, this person could be starting in very early November.

    It has been a while since we had a new FTE hire. Last time we did, I was knee deep in other tasks and didn’t really pay a lot of attention.

    Beyond the generic “be cool, a little weird is fine but don’t be too weird” what advice would you have for someone about to welcome a new hire in their department? If you’ve recently started a new job, what are some things peers did to make you feel welcome without making you feel weird?

    1. KitKat*

      Be thoughtful about the office social structure. For example, are there people who regularly go out to lunch or happy hour together? If so, inviting the new person to join some groups, or asking them to lunch 1:1 (and encouraging others to do the same) can go a long way toward making them feel welcome. It sucks to see people heading out together and not know the culture around joining/inviting people yourself/etc.

      Beyond that, is there anything where you personally could be a help to them as they get up and running? As part of onboarding in my department, we always have a list of people for the new hire to set up 1:1 meetings with. When people have their 1:1 with me, I always specify what topics I’m a good resource on and how best to get questions to me. This might require knowing a little bit about what the hiring manager’s onboarding plan is, but it would be fine to ask them about it!

    2. Rick Tq*

      Offer your time to help them learn the unwritten parts of the job at your company. Who are the powers behind the throne, who in purchasing can get orders unstuck, who in facilities can get things fixed, etc.

    3. spcepickle*

      Be super clear what they should expect / bring / wear their first day.
      I send an email to all new hires about a week before their start date stating exactly what our dress code is, what most people wear to the office, the fact that it is often cold in our building, and what they will be expected to do the first day.
      I tell them to bring their own water bottle and mug and what we provide around drinks. Also tell them if you will be bringing them to lunch or if they will need to bring / buy their own lunch.
      Make sure they know exactly where to go, where to park, and what time to be there.

      Think about all the unwritten rules in your office and share them. Mine include – big bottled water dispenser for everyone, small bottles of water for field staff only. Never talk to big boss right after lunch he going to close his office door and take a nap. One of our PMs is very Mormon – do not swear around them. Here is the shelf in the bathroom you are free to store stuff on. Don’t schedule meetings on Mondays.

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      This is so simple but using names deliberately. In person meetings, instead of saying “Can you email that update” at George, saying “George can you email that update to Sara’s team”. Really helps a new person quickly get the names, and keep a mental map of whose doing what. Hallways saying Good morning James, instead of just good morning when around the new person. It’s so little but it gives so much more confidence for new people.

      When I started, we had a woman who was really good about it. I’d walk past her talking to someone and she’d go “Oh by the way this is Disney, she just started last week. Have you met John? He works in ABC department” . Felt welcoming and really helped to have faces to go with names on zoom.

    5. Not Your Mother*

      Two things come to mind —
      1. A small printed “Welcome, Name!” on their desk goes a long way to show someone thought about their workspace before they arrived. (This goes hand in hand with making sure their desk has been Cloroxed and they have stickies and pens in the drawer, too.)
      2 . Show them where the restroom is / restrooms are before they get a chance to ask. In my building, the closest women’s restroom is upstairs from my desk, and I mostly work with men…and no one thought to show me where the (unintuitively located) women’s room was until I asked. Being told proactively would’ve helped me feel a bit more welcome.

    6. EllenD*

      I use to provide people with a list of helpful numbers (eg IT helpdesk, reception), a note or link on how to do things (eg book a meeting room, visitor passes) and other key info, including commonly used acronyms and contact details internally & externally. They do vary from office to office. Useful places in the filing system to find stuff. Anything to make the learning curve just that little less steep.

    7. Bruce*

      Lots of good advice on this thread! My large employer has a formal “coach” assigned to new hires, it can be the manager but usually is a senior peer. Let the new hire know if you’ll be taking them to lunch the first day, or if there will be something later.

    8. Another Kristin*

      Tell them about the people they’ll be working with! Like, George takes a while to respond to emails but will get there eventually, but if you need something from Mary you’d better send her a Slack message because her email is a black hole. Fergus hates phone calls, Andrea likes to come in early and leave by 3PM, Martin thinks the photocopier is his personal property and gets weird about other people changing the paper. Don’t worry if Herbert emails you at 10:45 PM, you’re not expected to respond outside of working hours. Stuff like that.

      Not being negative, but giving the new hire a heads-up about the personalities and idiosyncracies of their new colleagues.

    9. JustaTech*

      Everyone’s advice here is good: the thing I’ve done for new folks, because we’re in a awkward part of the city that most people don’t know well is that I made up a list of the nearby places to get coffee and lunch, with distances, general directions and a little color commentary (“this bakery is great but incredibly slow, order online or expect to wait 20+ minutes for your sandwich”) (“The Gyro truck on Friday is awesome!”) (“This Thai restaurant runs spicy”).
      I started doing this because it can look like a barren wasteland out here, and I like supporting our local businesses.
      (Which reminds me, I should update that list!)

    10. Bike Walk Barb*

      Who’s going to tell her about the systems she interacts with so she can find things? Both electronic and physical, like how/where files are named and stored, where supplies are she may need or be responsible for maintaining, the everyday stuff of just settling into the space, things that will help her feel competent and confident early on.

      Does the organization have other admin assistants who can be helpful to her in learning systems and settling in? Introduce her to them and ask them to help orient her.

  22. notthebuglady*

    Silly question, perhaps: do I need to kill bugs for my direct report who is scared of them?

    My direct report is terrified of any and every bug and keeps demanding that I kill them, even when the bug has gone into hiding somewhere or it’s a bug I’ve told them I won’t kill on principle (field crickets being the latest example). This week they trapped a field cricket and then demanded that I kill it even though I’d told them I don’t kill crickets! Also it would’ve been incredibly easy and low-risk for them to kill on their own – they just had to step on the thing they trapped it under – but they refused.

    In the past when a cricket escaped while I went to get a cup, they got mad at me about it. I told them if they cared so much, they needed to deal with it themselves, but I’m wondering if I’m being a jerk about this.

    (For background, I’m the woman who gets saddled with “man” tasks in an almost entirely female workplace – not physically difficult things, just things that women can learn but don’t want to, like troubleshooting tech and killing bugs. So this sort of thing drives me a little batty.)

    1. amoeba*

      I’d probably bring the poor bug outside to save it because I wouldn’t want anybody to kill it, tbh! I hate it when people kill bugs (except the ones that drink my blood, they deserve to die), so would definitely volunteer just because of that.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So my response to this comes down to how you judge this person’s behavior. Is this a genuine phobia, or is this learned helplessness for the sake of attention?

      1. notthebuglady*

        oh, that’s a very eloquent way of putting it, and it helps me understand the issue so much better, so thanks! It feels very much like learned helplessness for the sake of getting attention. I can’t say for sure that the fear isn’t genuine, but it feels very performative to me and doesn’t ring true to my own experience of having been terrified of bugs for half my life. They’ve claimed having “trauma” with crickets but they tend to say these things in a flippant manner – their trauma around cicadas was that one hitched a ride into their apartment on their clothes one time, so I didn’t even ask about the crickets.

        There’s definitely a manipulative aspect to it of trying to make me feel like a hero, which is the part that bothers me the most.

        2. notthebuglady*

          oh, that’s a very eloquent way of putting it, and it helps me understand the issue so much better, so thanks! It feels very much like learned helplessness for the sake of getting attention. I can’t say for sure that the fear isn’t genuine, but it feels very performative to me and doesn’t ring true to my own experience of having been terrified of bugs for half my life. They’ve claimed having “trauma” with crickets but they tend to say these things in a flippant manner – their trauma around cicadas was that one hitched a ride into their apartment on their clothes one time, so I didn’t even ask about the crickets.

          There’s definitely a manipulative aspect to it of trying to make me feel like a hero, which is the part that bothers me the most.

          1. Future*

            I hope if this person is having this much trauma around something as inescapable as bugs she is exploring some sort of treatment that will hopefully help her to deal with it. If this is a genuine phobia that is debilitating, but not your fault or responsibility.

            That said I would be careful about assuming she is attention-seeking if I were in your position. I don’t think it makes a lot of difference what the reason she acts this way is, and assuming it’s not a real phobia could have bad consequences if you are wrong. You can take reasonable measures wrt to her and bugs (like being kind about removing bugs if you can, but drawing the line at killing them or allowing her to take her anger out on you) either way.

            1. Future*

              Oh, and I meant to say, you don’t HAVE to kill any bugs, of course. It would be a kindness but certainly not one you have to continue doing.

    4. AnonymousOctopus*

      I would not entertain any more bug nonsense, personally. I’m also tasks with masculine tasks at work and it got to be so obnoxious that I’ve stopped doing all of it. If she cares so damn much about the bug, she can deal with it herself.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      If they are so afraid, how are they managing to trap the bug? But yeah, if it is already trapped, I take it outside and let it go. I’ve also been the woman who gets called to catch the thing, but people learn pretty quickly that I generally don’t kill it, I just relocate it. If it has gone into hiding, I vaguely pretend to look for it a bit, and then give up, call me if you see it again.

      I see you’re annoyed at being called at all, but I always looked at it as a quick break from my real work. (I might consider that differently if it were happening daily.)

    6. CommanderBanana*

      My roommate has a spider phobia, and we have an agreement that if there is a spider and I am home, I will carefully pop it under a glass, slide a paper under it, and release it outside. I have a roach phobia, so if there’s a roach, she kills it. If she wanted to release it into the wild, that would be fine, because she’s the one taking care of the roach problem.

      And it is a legitimate phobia, we’ve both been diagnosed. No, I have no idea why my phobia is for one type of bug only and no other type of bug.

    7. Clisby*

      Unless you work for a pest control company, the answer to bug killing is a simple NO. And maybe a call to a pest control company, if you’re talking about some kind of infestation.

      I also am giving the side-eye to “things that women can learn but don’t want to, like troubleshooting tech and killing bugs.”

      1. notthebuglady*

        yeah that sentence came out sounding really bad. I was certainly not intending to imply the existence of things women can’t learn, which is what it sounds like.

        I was referring more to learned helplessness, which I run into a lot both at work and at home and is quite a headache for me in the workplace, as the person who gets sought out for tech help in the absence of any nearby men (because most of these people will go for men first! every time!) and also, apparently, bug extermination.

    8. Future*

      I too won’t kill certain crawlies on principle. Even assuming this is a genuine phobia, it’s too big of an ask. I wouldn’t kill a dog or a pigeon, and plenty of people have phobias of those, so I won’t kill a spider, either.

      Phobias are real and I have sympathy for the direct report, and in your place I would do my best to take a bug outside, like you’ve been doing, but yeah, if it gets away and crawls somewhere where you can’t get it, I’m not sure what you’re supposed to do or how that’s at all your fault. It’s not cool that they got mad at y0u about it, but I hope that was an irrational heat of the moment thing caused by the phobia and that they apologised to you later.

      With that said, you’ve expressed some doubt that this is a genuine phobia and I don’t know enough about phobias to address that. I think

      1. you do not need to kill bugs for anyone, though killing bugs you don’t object to killing would be a kindness.

      2. nothing in what you’ve written here points to you being a jerk in the least.

      3. I’d continue to assume a genuine phobia and take care of the bugs within reason – definitely don’t violate your principles and kill bugs you don’t want to kill.

      4. she can feel anger all she wants, but if it’s affecting how she’s treating you, it needs to be addressed, especially if it’s happened more than once. It’s like the old adage of someone standing on your foot (I think Captain Awkward?). It doesn’t matter why someone is standing on your foot – they might be oblivious, they might not be able to help it, they might not know they are standing on your foot. It doesn’t matter, they still need to not be standing on your foot. She needs not to be expressing anger to you in unacceptable ways – shouting or terseness or whatever.

    9. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t think you are being a jerk. I think your direct report is being unreasonable.

      When I read your first line, my immediate thought was “well, I don’t think you need to, but if they are scared, it would probably be kind to kill or remove the bugs for them,” but then I read on and…they got mad at you because it escaped while you were getting a cup to deal with it? They trapped the cricket, then demanded you kill it rather than you know, dealing with it themself? I could understand if they were so scared they didn’t want to go anywhere near it, but given that they trapped it, they obviously aren’t so terrified that they can’t remain in a room with it.

      I agree with your assessment that it sounds kinda preformative, though of course, I don’t know the person in question and perhaps they really are terrified, but even then, it doesn’t justify getting mad at you for the cricket escaping! There’s something in your description of it that reminds me of a boss I once had who would insist she was terrified of a bug and couldn’t stay in the room with it and then…stay there talking about it. It just sounds to me like she wants attention.

      Not that it really matters anyway because even if she is genuinely scared, it still doesn’t make it your responsibility.

    10. Office Manager*

      You definitely don’t have to. How often is this happening? If it’s a lot you may want to invest in some bug-deterrent measures for you office.

    11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      imo, NO, you don’t need to concern yourself with the bugs, other than booking pest control.

      She is being unreasonable and too needy to keep asking you – or any men – to deal with her bug phobia. Obviously noone should be teasing her about it, but her phobia is her problem to deal with and should not be taking up the time of coworkers.
      You could suggest EAP to her, or ask HR how to proceed with the time-wasting, which sounds a problem – and will also be damaging her rep.

  23. Pocket Mouse*

    My office is having a Halloween-themed party this month. One of the planned activities is a game in which staff bring in baby/kid photos of themselves in a Halloween costume and everyone guesses who’s who.

    The baby/kid photo aspect is problematic enough (some people don’t have photos from early ages due to various possibly traumatic circumstances, socioeconomic status or home life problems can be readily apparent, it can out trans people, etc.) but the Halloween costume aspect adds another tin of worms. What about people who don’t—or whose families didn’t—do anything for Halloween? What about people whose parents dressed them as something racist or otherwise inappropriate?

    The good news in this case is that there’s no pressure for every person to submit a photo – the office is 100+ people, and I’d guess maybe 15-30 people will submit photos.

    My questions for you are:
    1. Would you: a) ask that this game not happen at the upcoming party, b) accept the game is happening but ask that it not happen in the future, or c) say nothing?
    2. If you know the problems but it is not problematic for you personally, would you submit a photo?
    3. If you would both participate and push back in some way, how would you do it?
    4. If you are someone for whom baby/kid photo things are problematic, but you are under no pressure to submit a photo, how do you feel about the game happening around you?

    1. Abigail*

      I think it’s impossible to select an activity like this that has 100% enthusiasm.

      As long as these types of events do not consistently cut off the same group of people I think they can continue.

      I wouldn’t want to participate in this event but I wouldn’t complain about it, either. It’s okay to just sit out every now and then.

    2. HannahS*

      I get the problems but it’s not problematic for me personally. I wouldn’t participate because I don’t celebrate Halloween, but I wouldn’t bother to object. If there isn’t pressure to participate and the expected ratio is 15-30 people out of 100, then it’s clearly an opt-in activity. Most “fun” office activities are exclusive in some way–physical activities, food-related activities, party games, anything with alcohol.

      I don’t get why an office would celebrate Halloween–or any holiday. I mean, I get it, but I don’t enjoy it, because the holidays celebrated aren’t my holidays. This activity seems to really bother you, but it’s worth considering that some people will be bothered by the celebration itself. I still wouldn’t raise it at work and I wouldn’t be more than mildly bothered by it happening around me. I mean, I’ll take free candy! But

    3. Part time lab tech*

      If most people are opting out, I’d let it be. It might hurt a little if there are bad memories associated with childhood Halloween, like seeing babies after having a miscarriage, but other people are allowed to share their joy in childhood Halloween. That pain would be mine to manage.
      If it was a phobia, I’d probably try to be elsewhere that day.

    4. Cordelia*

      I think it’s ok so long as it’s only a small part of the entertainment and it’s easy to opt out and avoid it altogether without it being a big deal.
      It’s the being expected to provide a picture that is problematic, for all the reasons you suggest, but being in a room with pictures of other babies in Halloween costumes is not likely to be distressing.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you are someone for whom baby/kid photo things are problematic, but you are under no pressure to submit a photo, how do you feel about the game happening around you?

      I am not one of these people, but if I were, I suspect I would feel “oh, great, yet another opportunity for me to feel othered/left out.”

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I’ll offer a counterpoint. I am one of those people– sharing a photo like that would mean sharing some info about my family that I don’t like to discuss. (To put it plainly, all of my childhood Halloween photos also feature family members from whom I’m estranged.) I just don’t share photos. If no one’s pressuring me, then I don’t really care. And I actually like seeing my co-worker’s kid photos! But I don’t feel left out.

        I was pressured once. Small company. They wanted me to share a baby picture of myself for the Christmas tree. I don’t celebrate Christmas, so I just ignored the request. The office manager came after me. She finally let it go, but I had to be very firm and forceful, and I’m still pissed she put me in that position.

    6. Rick Tq*

      1 – Say nothing since it is clearly voluntary now. Those who enjoy it submit photos, those who don’t for any reason don’t.
      2 – No

    7. Cheshire Cat*

      If most of the staff won’t bring in a picture and no one is pressured to bring one, I wouldn’t worry about it.

      1. CTT*

        This is where I land. If it was a small office and an omission would be noticeable, it’s worth speaking up. But such low participation – that I imagine is due to a variety of factors and not just those you’ve listed – means that no one is being singled out for not bringing in a photo.

    8. Clisby*

      I wouldn’t care about the game, but I couldn’t possibly submit a photo – I’m 71 and have absolutely no photos of my childhood self dressed in a Halloween costume. Come to think of it, I don’t recall ever taking pictures of my 2 kids in their Halloween costumes, so they might have no record either.

      I should have taken a picture of my now 22-year-old, out Halloween-ing as The Dude from The Big Lebowski when he was 9 or 10, but too late now.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        Yeah, when I was a kid, my Mom would make us elaborate Halloween costumes, but it never occurred to anyone to take pictures. Pictures of family members were usually just Christmas, birthdays, graduation, and maybe a few on vacation (“I’ve taken everyone’s picture, now stop blocking the view of what we came to see, film costs a fortune!”).

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          This was my dad! Most of our vacation pictures were just scenery (“I see you kids every day, I drove for days to see these mountains”) and virtually none actually have him in them.

          1. DannyG*

            One of the reasons I was the family photographer was because I could be, of necessity, on the other side of the lens, not in the picture.

    9. Tech Industry Refugee*

      I’d let it go. Sharing childhood photos, in or out of costume, is a pretty common/ordinary office activity that is intended to be fun, especially if people aren’t being forced to participate. I feel like the thoughts in this post are a tad blown out of proportion.

      If someone has a personal problem with the activity, they are welcome to not participate and/or speak up. They are also equally welcome to not say anything about it if it’s uncomfortable for them to do so – many people do not want to reveal their unfortunate childhood circumstances. I wouldn’t make it a “thing.”

    10. noname today*

      I hated these—all of
      My kiddo pics were black and white while everyone under 50 were in color. Immediate age-ism followed. Hence I always refuse to take part and feel bad about it.

      I would speak up for all the other reasons you mentioned and suggest an alternative activity instead. Pumpkin decorating contest (small hand-sized ones, markers, etc) come to mind.

      And if they are dedicated to it for this year strongly recommend it for next years.

      1. anonymous higher ed person*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t want to share photos either, but even if I did, and had any, which I don’t recall for sure,they’d be at my parents house in another state, so not easily accessible.

    11. Alex*

      I think if it is truly optional, it’s not problematic. My workplace did this game, and some people submitted photos, and some people didn’t, and it was no big deal. People could choose not to participate and not be questioned about it, from reasons such as being trans and not wanting to be outed, to just plain forgetting. Of course I wouldn’t know if someone else felt secretly bothered by it, but I don’t think it is such an egregious thing that it should be avoided.

      1. allathian*

        That’s how I feel, too. I’m in Finland and Halloween is a recent innovation here. There are no pics of me in a Halloween costume because we didn’t celebrate it when I was a kid. Optional dressing up for Halloween was a thing when my son was in daycare and elementary school, so I have pictures of him dressed up.

        Trick or treating isn’t a thing here, although many kids do dress up on Palm Sunday, knock on doors, say a “blessing” and get candy in exchange for a willow branch decorated with dyed feathers and papier mache eggs. It’s an interesting mix of Christian and Pagan traditions because the willow branches are supposed to represent the palm leaves the people of Jerusalem waved when Jesus rode into the city, but most girls dress up as witches! Boys dress up as whatever.

        My office had a completely voluntary competition once where the competitors submitted a baby photo and a recent one and you were supposed to pair them up. My office has 300+ employees and there were maybe 30 photos to pair up, so 15 competitors. All in good fun.

        I’m just glad that all the restrooms in my office are single user ones. Some of them are accessible for wheelchair users and they’re explicitly marked for all genders.

    12. Maggie*

      I would participate and not push back. It’s not required or even expected. Many people enjoy this activity. Let it go.

    13. A Person*

      As someone in management, I would ideally push back on the “guess who’s who” aspect of this (either ahead of time if possible or in the future). If you have anyone who is a visible minority in a group it can feel othering to not only have a sea of babies that don’t look like you and then you, but then be actively paying attention to that difference.

      I wouldn’t worry as much about the activity as a whole as long as it’s extremely optional. “Here’s a wall of baby photos from people who chose to submit” can be fun. If I knew the person well I’d likely suggest making the activity more inclusive (include pet pictures or adult pictures if people are interested) but I wouldn’t push hard on that.

    14. fhqwhgads*

      1. I would ask they reconsider doing this game for the very good reasons you outlined. Assuming good intentions but thoughtlessness on the part of the organizers, best case scenario they’re like “sorry hadn’t thought of that but of course you’re right”.
      2. Would not participate. It wouldn’t out me. And I did do Halloween as a kid. I do not have a traumatic reason for not having photos, but I have no photos of myself in costume as a kid (or adult for that matter). I wouldn’t want to participate even I a could.
      3. This approach would blur the message.
      4. Problem with this approach is there’s no way to ensure someone ELSE feels no pressure. No amount of “really it’s optional” can completely make this not awkward for some folks.

  24. Someone*

    After reading many letters on AAM, I am getting sceptical about the concept of ‘unprofessional’.

    ‘Unprofessional’ sounds like ‘I don’t like it’ without any real meaning. It’s used by bad managers to attack employees. To quote the bizarre Leap Day boss: “My manager feels her complaints are petty and she needs to be more professional. I agree with him.”
    If she quietly went along with not getting a birthday off, she’d be ‘professional’. By correctly standing up for herself, she’s ‘unprofessional’.

    Bad bosses & coworkers have used the term ‘unprofessional’ (or synonyms) for:
    Objecting to discrimination (including leap year-based).
    Quitting after a manager refuses a reasonable time-off request.
    Having menstrual cramps.
    Having menstrual products.
    Having a cold sore.
    Unbuttoning a shirt in a heatwave.
    Wearing the same item of clothing twice in one week.

    Can anyone give a reasonable definition of ‘unprofessional’ that can be universally applied and not abused by bad bosses?

    1. T. Wanderer*

      I don’t think there is one. Unprofessional = outside professional norms for the context; that context is going to vary by job! If you are a bigshot lawyer and expected to wear suits, it would be “unprofessional” to wear the same outfit as a summer camp counselor. The idea of “professional norms” is a very nebulous space, and it’s weaponizable (and debatable — see any letter about how to address someone in the workplace).

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There’s plenty of serious, real-world, adult stuff that doesn’t even come close to those things.

      Unprofessional: sharing confidential information with clients or other outsiders, reacting emotionally in client communications, interrupting or distracting coworkers with irrelevant communications or loud noises, interacting with colleagues differently based on personal considerations instead of work needs, badmouthing your employer or your clients on social media.

      Professional: keep your s*** together in public, be cognizant of company culture and conform to it.

      1. Seven times*

        This is a good list. I’d add that professionalism includes engaging in best practices. For example if your business has some kind of regulated procurement requirements or standard communication practice (even internally), not abiding by these would be unprofessional to perform duties while ignoring these (like keeping a paper trail for continuity of information).

      2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        People in my office distract me with irrelevant communication every day I’m there. It’s an open plan setup and they will take Zoom meetings from their desks rather than going to a conference room. It’s annoying, but I don’t think it rises to the level of “unprofessional”.

    3. Ostrich Herder*

      I think professionalism is kind of inherently subjective, which is the thing that makes it so easy for bad managers to abuse. “Professional” isn’t an objective standard, it’s a social norm, and it’s going to vary by the social group (office) that uses it, and some social groups (offices) are going to have norms that are unlike other groups’.

      I do want to add, though, that this is a pretty common semantics problem, in general. Language is so inherently flexible that it’s very, very hard to define a word in such a way that no bad actors can get slippery with it.

      The classic exercise you’ll get in linguistics and philosophy classes is “What’s a definition of ‘chair’ that encompasses all chairs and no non-chair objects?” You get into the weeds quickly because it’s so subjective – a chair definitely needs a backrest of some sort, arms are optional, but is the number of legs disqualifying? Is a three-legged chair just a stool with a backrest? Surely it’s about seating just one person, too, to differentiate it from sofas and benches. Are those giant novelty beach chairs you can put a bunch of people on and take pictures in at tourist attractions therefore not chairs? Is it a proportions thing, then, so that the big novelty beach chairs which are proportioned for one enormous person but can fit many smaller ones still count? You have to get really, really, really granular and technical before you can get a definition that meets the criteria, and even then, if you run into friends at a restaurant and one of them say “Hey, I didn’t expect to see you here, welcome, pull up a chair!” and someone brings over a tall barstool with a back… Anyone who’s like “Well TECHNICALLY that’s not a chair, go put it back” in a serious way is probably not getting invited to dinner next time.

      1. Tio*

        The other problem is also that people will just often use the word wrong, either because they don’t understand it or because they’re deliberately trying to cover something up under the guise of this other thing! I think a lot of the examples of “unprofessionalism” mentioned are just bad bosses trying to throw a veneer of acceptability over their unacceptable behavior. Loads of people do this with other things too, not just “professionalism.” That’s kind of the definition or abusing a word or system – using it outside of its intended purpose.

    4. NaoNao*

      To me, the best definition of unprofessional is “prioritizing your personal comfort and needs or emotions above the needs of the business”. That applies to a lot of things, and it’s often unfair and crappy, like needing to carry certain products or even having a period. But that’s what I take away from that, and my experience in the corporate world. Any time you put yourself as an individual in some way above the collective corporate entity, it’s “unprofessional”.

    5. bamcheeks*

      I talk about this with new grads when I’m teaching leadership and management. I have a slide that has a picture of an East Asian man in a suit and tie, and a Black man in a hoodie and denim jacket, and it says, “Which of these is more professional (and why is this a trick question?)” Then I talk about the fact hat when I did my Google image search for “Professional”, nearly all the photos looked like the first one, but that there are plenty of professional settings where the second would be just as professional. :)

      So the answer for me is that there are three ways of using the word “professional”. The first, and worst, is a shorthand for a very narrow and authoritarian idea of “professionalism” which is broadly corporate and, as you point out, is usually about putting the corporation’s / capitalism’s / the boss’s needs over the workers.

      The second, which I get everyone to think about for themselves, is about meeting the standards of your profession. So for scientists that might be about high standards in your research, not cherry-picking, not plagiarising, being aware of safety in the lab. For someone who works with young people, it might be about the relationships you have with them, and what you do and don’t do in their best interests, what language you use with them and why. For someone who works in finance it might be about ethical probity and careful attention to detail. And you might well have professional standards and ethics which aren’t directly in line with what your employers want.

      The third, which overlaps with both the other two but which I think is also useful as a third, distinct thing, is a kind of professional etiquette, which has more in common across sectors, around things like what language you use at work and how you present yourself. So things like meeting deadlines, communicating effectively, limiting the impact that bad moods or external pressures have on your co-workers, not starting emails with “Hey girlie”! And like non-work etiquette, there’s a tension between “a set of formal rules that everyone should follow” and “a set of flexible rules of which the most important one is to think about other people’s comfort as well as your own”.

      So I think there are a lot of grey areas, and there can also be a lot of tension around professionalism as cultures change and what used to be unacceptable becomes acceptable and vice versa, but I don’t think it’s a completely useful concept. It is one you should actively think about rather than apply thoughtlessly, though.

      1. peter b*

        This is a really lovely and clear framework! It’s really nice to know someone is teaching new grads not just rules but guidelines for how to judge and interpret norms like this.

      4. Mimmy*

        Your third point echoes how I’ve always viewed professionalism – how you carry yourself with coworkers, customers, vendors, etc. I never thought of all the other ways people are describing in this thread–very interesting!

    6. Ferret*

      There is no universal definition of politeness or reasonable but that doesn’t make them concepts that don’t apply in the office. An example of unprofessional behaviour that would apply almost everywhere would be insulting coworkers or clients.. but then you have to ask for a universal definition of “insult”……

      Bad bosses will abuse anything.

    7. Busy Middle Manager*

      Eh, it’s more:

      1) Does it interrupt or dump problems on coworkers: (doesn’t clean up kitchen, microwaves fish in office, calls in sick to do personal stuff, leaving you to do their job last minute)
      2) Does it make you look bad to customers/donors and make them not want to give you money (would you want to buy from or donate to a group of people who look and act like they just roll out of bed and don’t take the job seriously?)

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        That point 2 is what gets abused, though. “Clients” would be upset by Black natural hair. “Clients” won’t take women seriously. “Clients” need women to be young and conventionally attractive.

    8. Strive to Excel*

      No.

      Best definition of professionalism: a removal of emotive and personalized behavior to allow for neutrality; also, following industry best practices for purposes of clear and straightforward work.

      If you think about “unprofessional” behavior, it tends to fall into one of two categories. 1 – bringing emotion or personality to an otherwise neutral topic, and 2 – having a workflow in a way that hinders your fellow employees unnecessarily.

      1 – Clothing becomes neutral (no graphic tees, no logos, no indication of clothes being tailored for the user’s personal comfort) – the goal is to be an “everyman”. Put two guys into the same type of suit and a lot of the visual differences disappear. You have to have a decently good eye for clothes to see the difference between a bank teller’s suit and a Fortune 500 CEO’s suit. Clothing also loses indications of being tailored for individual comfort, favoring instead external neutrality. Language loses emotion – emojis, italics, ‘padding’ language beyond the standard business niceties. Language also gains increasingly neutral jargon and (at least in the good communications) an emphasis on covering all the details while getting the point across. Extreme emotions are frowned on (usually negative ones, but not always) – tears, yelling, visible discontent.

      2 – Hindering workflow of others – hoarding information, unnecessary red tape, not following industry norms, communicating in a way that does not clearly transmit information, etc.

      Because it’s industry and culture specific, there is no way to exclude it from “being abused”. You can’t regulate away bad behavior. A bad boss will *always* find a loophole.

    9. Irish Teacher.*

      As others have said, it’s pretty hard to give a definition (of most things) that couldn’t be abused.

      I would say, in general, the closest I could come is that it means behaving in a way that gives your clients/students/patients/whoever you are serving confidence in your ability to do your job and meet their needs appropriately. Yes, that could be abused too, as I’m sure some boss would argue that having a cold sore or unbuttoning a shirt could cause clients to doubt your abilities or expertise or integrity, but I think people are going to be able to argue their biases regardless of definition. I bet some bad bosses could abuse any definition of safety standards too.

      I’m thinking about this principal I worked with who I once heard calling across the yard to a student, “hey, student’s name, I love your jacket.” There was nothing wrong in it. He wasn’t doing anything really inappropriate or anything and yet, there was something unprofessional about the school principal calling across the yard to a teenager in the tone one would expect from a classmate. And I think his tendency to do things like that did damage his authority with the students. I also heard them laughing about how he told them to “call me *his first name*!” Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with students using the principal’s first name. It’s only convention that we don’t but in a setting where students were expected to use Mr. X, Mrs. Y, Sir and Miss for their teachers, the principal inviting them to use a name generally considered more informal than what they used for most staff did seem out of place. He just gave a general impression of wanting to be the “cool principal” and “be a friend rather than an authority.”

      Equally, there’s probably nothing inherently wrong with writing an e-mail to clients in text speak, but if say, a doctor were to write, “how’re ya, boy, just writin’ to remind ya yer due for a blood test. Gimme a bell and we’ll agree a time, ya?” well, it certainly wouldn’t sound the most sympathetic if the person required blood tests for monitoring a serious illness and many people would probably be a bit put off seeing that doctor.

  25. Aurora*

    I started at a new job in June and I feel miserable. I started listing my complaints here, and by far the biggest is that my responsibilities are unclear. My work involves coordinating a lot of things between different people and I don’t like it, especially when there is disagreement on what is everyone’s responsibility. I am also a person who wants to get things done, so I end up easily taking extra work for myself.

    My boss is in a different country and he knows very little what’s going on locally and cannot do much to support me. The rest of the team is also scattered in different countries, so no support from them either. I feel lonely at the office, and there isn’t really anyone with whom I would’ve been able to connect, though most of the people are nice.

    I knew most of those things when I was hired, but they bother me more than I expected.

    On the plus side, pay is good and I am again working in my “own” industry. I don’t know what I should do.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Ideally stick it out a year. 6 months minimum if it’s absolutely soul destroying. Being back in your industry can really help build your career goals long term. Think of this job not as needing to be perfect but just needing to be survivable for the next 9 months (you’ve already made it 3!). Step up your out of work activities to meet your needs, social, enjoyable, etc. Spend a little more of your budget on fun stuff (crafts, concerts, books, whatever makes you happy) to compensate.

    2. LingNerd*

      First, there’s no shame in deciding this environment isn’t for you and finding a different job. But assuming you’re interested in sticking around…

      Have you tried talking with your boss, even if you don’t think they’ll be much help? Because they might be more help than you expect if you haven’t tried it. You may also be able to talk to other members of your team to ask if they’ve run into similar issues where they are, and how they handled it.

      When it comes to coordination, what about it don’t you like, specifically? And can you do anything to make it better? E.g. if everything is in email and it’s a disorganized mess to keep track of, can you use other software – project management software if it’s complex enough, otherwise maybe something like teams or sharepoint if it’s a matter of getting people all in a room together or collecting a bunch of relevant documents? Or if it’s socially exhausting, can you take off some of the burden by sending automated notifications or using email templates?

      When nobody is agreeing on which things they can take responsibility for, are you getting down to the why? A good question to ask would be “what would have to change for you to take on this task?” The answer might not be something you can do anything about, but it should give you an idea whether it’s a technical/expertise issue, a workload issue, or stubbornness.

      And for feeling lonely at work… do you have a social life outside of work? If not, that might be a place to put your attention. Some workplaces have a lot of interest in friendship, others are mostly filled with people who just want to mind their own business and meet their social needs elsewhere. It sounds like you might be in the latter kind of place, and that’s not very likely to change

      1. Aurora*

        Thanks for all the constructive ideas! I have been so exhausted trying to cope with the demands of the job that I’ve let myself dwell too much in being miserable.

        On the social side, I’d say my workplace is quite average. I am an introvert and have not been able to connect with the people there. I’d be less annoyed about feeling lonely if it was the whole vibe there.

        1. Jeneral*

          I sympathize with you on that. I’ve been at my job over a year and I just haven’t connected with anyone. Also an introvert. I had great friends at my previous job, and really didn’t realize how much feeling disconnected would bother me. Three months though is not a lot of time. You may feel much more settled and adjusted by the 6 month or year month, and if the pay is good, to me that’s a big plus.

  26. Ostrich Herder*

    Anyone have advice on avoiding being the messenger who gets shot?

    My work is technical, and I report directly to the owner of a small company. He doesn’t fully grasp what goes into technical work and, lately, has been committing to difficult or even impossible projects that our software simply can’t accomplish, but promising them to clients on short timelines and tiny budgets.

    I’m always friendly, solution-oriented, and respectful in these conversations, but the upshot of them is that at least twice a week the last few weeks, the owner has popped into my office in the late afternoon, and said “Hey, real quick, can you…” and then outlined something that is NOT real quick. I’ll always explain what I can do, in the time I have, but he quickly gets visibly frustrated when he realizes that he’s promised a client something that’s going to waaay outstrip the timeline and budget he projected for them. He gets visibly annoyed every time, and it’s starting to worry me.

    I know the broader structural issue is “the owner needs to either understand his team’s capabilities or not commit to things before he’s talked to people who understand” and I’m trying to schedule time for a broader conversation about that. But does anyone have any ideas or scripts for handling the conversations themselves in the meantime?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you could outline what you’re seeing as a problem – that there are some projects the owner has agreed to in the past that are either very difficult or not at all feasible simply because of technology constraints. Then ask the owner if there’d be a way for them to touch base with you/the team before agreeing to a project to ensure that the technical aspects, the timeline, and the budget are presented to the client so you both deliver results AND make money for the company.

    2. NaoNao*

      Maybe do a faux agreement and then at a later time when he’s not at peak enthusiasm, explain why you can’t.

      In the moment, respond to the emotion “Ooh, interesting idea. Let me look into it.” “Oh, hm! That does sound like a fun option. Let’s see if I can make that work.”

      Then later:

      “Okay, so what we CAN do is X. I researched your idea and here’s what I found…” focus on what you can do/can offer, etc.

    3. Nesprin*

      This sounds an awful lot like you need to have someone technical with outstanding judgement in the bid/client management process to give a more reasonable estimate. It might be worth asking to be cc’d on client communications or to sit in when estimates/timelines are being set.

      If your boss is regularly promising clients the moon without considering cost/effort, he’s leaving money on the table.

    4. HugeTractsofLand*

      This is a him problem! He should be running the idea by you before promising anything to clients. Maybe you can name the pattern and then ask him if it’s possible to bring projects to you before agreeing to do them? Or maybe you could even join his client calls so you can give feedback in the moment?

      I get that you’re worried that he’s frustrated at you/the situation, but the best way to handle this is to not get defensive, just calmly and clearly lay out how much time the task would take. I work in a technical role with non-technical people, so I always start out really broad (“as proposed, this project would take 1 week”) and then give a few more details when pressed (“this component takes 2 days and this part takes 3. Maybe we could just do component #1?”). Good luck!

    5. SleepyHollow*

      In my experience you will never really be able to fix this. Especially if the owner *thinks* he understands the tech aspect.

      The best I was ever able to manage was calm clear communication that the ask was not feasible. When the bigwig making the request got frustrated or annoyed because “it isn’t that complicated” I would point out recent examples when “uncomplicated” things were problems that had cost the company time and money. When I was told I was over thinking and over complicating I calmly pointed out that I would be thrilled to be proven wrong, but that I was not going to over promise and under deliver or deliver a subpar product.

    6. Tech Industry Refugee*

      “Hey boss, based on your description of what you need for task C, I estimate that I will need x hours for research, x hours for development, and x hours for QA to get this delivered to the client ASAP. That’s (x*3) hours total.

      I am already up to x hours this sprint/cycle due to tasks A and B. It sounds like task C is a priority and I want to ensure that we provide the best possible result. Can we check with Mary and Jake to see whether they could take over some of A and B for me so that I can get C out the door for you?”

    7. Office Manager*

      My understanding is by trying not to get “shot” as the messenger, you mean your boss is visibly frustrated with you because of a mistake he made right? I so get that, it’s super annoying and it happens to me too.

      I think you can handling externally with your boss, but also internally with yourself.
      Internally, I think you might want to release responsibility on yourself to make whatever he asks for happen. This is about him not you, and because he messed up he has to go back and explain it.

      Externally, when your boss comes in and gives you a “real quick” thing and you start telling him what can be done, I would ignore his annoyance and just go broken record…
      You: “that’s the minimum time frame it will take.”
      Boss: “Ugh. It can’t be any faster? I told them it could be done by Y”
      You: “Oh that sucks! Unfortunately this is the minimum time frame we can do it in.
      Boss: “They’re going to be so mad.”
      You: “Doesn’t sound like a fun conversation. I wish we could do it faster but that’s the minimum time frame it will take.”

      It means your boss has to go back and deal with it, and hopefully the consequences of his actions (having those conversations) will over time help him to handle that differently.

  27. Inver*

    Does anyone have tips for internal interviews? I have an initial one next week for a position that’s sort of a diagonal move above me.

    My work is closely enough related that I can put in a good case, but I think I probably don’t have enough technical experience to get it.

    The big positive from that though is that there’s no pressure. I just want to give a really strong interview I’m proud of and see what happens.

    Any general advice on getting the most out of an internal interview would be useful, but I’m specifically interested in questions to ask at the end. Most of what I can think of, the culture, etc, I already know the answers to. I’m tempted by the difference between good and great/ do you have any concerns about me, but don’t want to miss a trick if there’s something that would work better when you know the interviewers/have a good understanding of the role.

    1. ThatGirl*

      You can ask different/better questions on internal interviews – more about management styles, team dynamics, what the technical requirements truly are. What would set a great candidate apart from a good one. What the challenges and strengths of the team are. That kind of thing.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Also, if you discuss any projects you have worked on, you might be able to go into the discussion more deeply, if it’s well-known in organization.

    2. Pretty as a Princess*

      In addition to the difference between good/great, I would ask about the leadership’s priorities. What in your mind, Futureboss, are the top three priorities for your team right now?

      You could ask about priorities for the position, but I like the focus on the organization because it can get your juices flowing about ways you can act to enable those priorities, vs just focusing on what’s written in the job description. This can help you get out of that box where you feel you may not have the technical experience

      I also have had good success with the question: What one book or article would you recommend that everyone on your team read? That can tell you a LOT.

    3. stelms_elms*

      Exude the same level of professionalism as you would if you were applying as an external applicant. Don’t assume they know all facets/results of your work, and don’t act too chummy with your interviewers. You could ask what qualities made the previous person successful, etc.

  28. Chirpy*

    Is there a work appropriate way to say “I’m not antisocial, I just don’t want to talk to you in particular” ?

    One coworker told me I can “go be antisocial and lonely at home” when I asked him to please not turn up the breakroom tv (for five minutes until I left). I tried to explain that I find it really helpful and peaceful to have a few quiet minutes, he complained, then just started talking at me. I ignored him and he petered out. Until the usual Jerk Coworker arrived as I was leaving and they both just yelled at me that I need to compromise (which they can’t do for 5 minutes?? There was no one else in the breakroom when I got there, so I turned the TV down but not off, for exactly that reason.)

    1. Chirpy*

      Like, I’m decently pleasant with both of them, but the guy who called me antisocial is known for cornering women and just dragging out a conversation. Or he’ll just start talking in a room full of quiet people to fill the silence.

    2. Scriveaaa*

      Uh – no. You need to be able to politely communicate with all your coworkers. Sounds like he was rude, but unfortunately that doesn’t mean you get to be rude back.

      1. Chirpy*

        This isn’t work related conversation- we can have those just fine. It’s things like he just starts talking at me on break (just spouts a random thing into a silence, and keeps pushing to talk about anything) or he’ll have a legitimate question and then devolve into a story about his dog and I just can’t escape.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          It doesn’t matter if it’s a work related conversation. If it’s your coworker and you are in the workplace, it counts under the same rules.

          1. Chirpy*

            Yeah, that’s why I’m looking for a polite way to shut him down. I don’t want to chitchat with someone who constantly insults me or mansplains random things.

            1. Strive to Excel*

              Big over ear headphones. They don’t have to be on, but it’s the universal modern signal for “I don’t want to talk to you now”.

        2. HonorBox*

          It sounds like the guy just doesn’t realize what he’s doing and how it is bothering you, but if it is happening the break room, you may need to adjust either where you’re taking a break, or throw in some headphones. You may not be listening to anything, but that could at least be an outward signal that talking to you may not be the best .

          If he devolves into a story following a legitimate work question asked during non-break hours, you could easily say, “I’m sorry I just need to get back to ________” and then start back working.

          1. Chirpy*

            On break, it always happens when I’m reading, so he’s not getting that cue. And I’m not allowed to take a break anywhere else. I try not to go on break at the same time as him, but frankly I’m just guessing so I never know who’s in the breakroom until it’s too late.

            1. HonorBox*

              I’m going to add a bit more information based on your comments below about location and the TV.

              I think you’re probably very right that he knows what he’s doing, and this probably is something that doesn’t rise to level of “bring the boss in” normally, but it might be worth a conversation. Even just asking your boss how they would recommend navigating this. Because you’re entitled to a break however you choose to take it, and if he’s just coming in and chatting, that’s not giving you the time you deserve. Your boss may tell you to tell the guy to shut the hell up. If I were the boss, I’d provide a gentle reminder to everyone that break time can be used however, and if someone is taking their break and obviously doing something – listening to headphones, reading, etc. – we should all wait to engage them in conversation.

              The TV thing is interesting too. The fact that others don’t love the TV on may lead to a conversation about how the TV gets prioritized. I can see how it would be difficult because people take breaks at different times, and someone may want to watch something with their 15, but it shouldn’t overrun the break room. I’d think it should default to ‘off’ and then someone coming in should ask others who are there already if it is OK for them to turn it on. It just seems like a recipe for disaster if someone is in there blasting MSNBC or FOX News and making others uncomfortable with the content.

              1. Chirpy*

                I mean, that’s the exact problem right there. The 6 or so vocal TV watchers want to watch Fox or soap operas. And it is extremely uncomfortable. I have a trauma association with one of the soap operas, it puts me on edge to hear it, and the one time I tried to explain that to someone, I got screamed at until I had a full panic attack. And Fox/MSNBC are just infuriating.

                I’ve brought the TV thing up with the boss before, and unfortunately I think “everyone needs to compromise” got heard by these coworkers as “we get to watch our shows and everyone else has to compromise”.

                1. Tio*

                  Honestly I would bring up to the boss that a coworker screamed at you more than the compromise thing? I know it’s important but that is a way bigger overall issue than compromising on a TV show!

                2. Chirpy*

                  The screaming incident was the catalyst for the “compromise” conversation with management, it clearly didn’t work…I just try extra hard not to go be in the breakroom during that soap opera. She got what she wanted.

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I don’t want to be unsupportive with this comment, because I love to have some peace and quiet too. But it seems like him talking at you stemmed less from him wanting to converse than it was about you not wanting the TV volume up. If that TV is on regularly and that’s a communal space, it seems reasonable that someone else could come in and expect to catch up on the news or SportsCenter or whatever he was doing to take a break too. He was rude and his comment frankly sucks, but I think there’s a reasonable expectation that a communal breakroom that others may be in there and there will be less peace and quiet than elsewhere.

      1. Chirpy*

        That’s the thing, though – I only turn the TV off if I’m alone in there or with other people’s permission, but they don’t even ask me before turning the TV back on. I’ve had someone walk in, turn the TV on, and leave! I’m expected to “compromise” but no one else will.

        This time it happened to be both issues at once, but he’ll just start talking at me even if the TV was on already, and/or I’ve made it clear I’m in the middle of something.

      2. Butt in Seat*

        Do you think you’d have any luck with getting the TV set up to be “sound off, captions on”? Then people who want to engage with the content can watch and read the captions, and people who don’t can face the other way. This is how my gym has their TV’s set up in front of the treadmills and I love it!

        1. Chirpy*

          I’m not sure how to bring it up, as we do occasionally use that TV for taped trainings and management seems not entirely tech savvy. That would be my ideal, though. I’m sure someone would complain about the quiet, though.

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      Headphones on break might be helpful. No one needs to know if you’re catching up on your audiobook or just playing white noise or silence. But it’s a very clear signal to not talk to you and can help drown out other peoples conversations. I’d also look at are there other break space options, stairwell, car etc that might give you that solitude you’re needing.

      1. Chirpy*

        I eat lunch in my car whenever feasible, but I’m not allowed to take breaks anywhere but the breakroom and can’t leave the building for those (retail, no desk/office).

      1. Chirpy*

        I’m not the only one who hates the constant TV. There’s just like 6 people who are really, really vocal about wanting it on (and unfortunately they won’t all go to lunch at the same time.)

        1. Desert Dreaming*

          Could you negotiate designating certain days each week when the TV sound is off, or do something like every other day the sound is on? Just some arrangement where the people who prefer quiet are actually accommodated and the people who prefer the audio also get their turn?

          1. Chirpy*

            The ones who like noise are either completely unwilling to compromise (because jerks), or just think quiet is weird and unsettling. They’ve told me this to my face, or had really loud, passive aggressive conversations about it in front of me.

            Management either doesn’t understand the issue, or doesn’t think this is worth their time to deal with, unfortunately. (probably both.)

            It’s just so frustrating, because 15 minutes of quiet really, really helps me deal with the rest of the day. Which is also why I’d rather not get interrupted by this guy demanding my attention while I’m on break, too. (I can deal with him and the other jerk better if I can escape them for a bit, too! But there’s not a consistent time to avoid them on break and/or lunch.)

    6. Ginette*

      No, there isn’t. That’s not a thing you get to say in the workplace.

      If you want quiet in a shared break space, I recommend earplugs or headphones.

      And start gradually turning the TV volume lower in tiny increments. Move it the smallest amount possible, leave it for a few days, turn it down again, leave it a bit, and over time see if you can get the volume default expectation to be quieter.

      1. Chirpy*

        Unfortunately, people walk in and immediately adjust it if it’s not loud enough for them. If 20 is average, 10 is about what I’d prefer…but one person moves it up to 30-40, and one person will crank it up to 70! Some people will agree to turn the volume down to 10-20, but others will absolutely not, so often it has to stay at whatever level it’s on. The person who likes it at 30-40 goes to lunch around 10:30-11, so it’s often stuck at whatever level she sets basically until at least 2:00 (when I ca

        If I’m in there on break earlier, I try to turn it down before I turn it off, exactly so hopefully whoever turns it on leaves it lower, but it doesn’t always work. I do think some people didn’t realize that turning the TV off (or down, or changing the channel to anything else) was allowed, until I started doing it, so there are a few other people doing it now, too.

        1. Chirpy*

          *that should say – when I can turn it down, sometimes I manage to go on break in time to get there after the one who screamed at me leaves, but before Talky Guy and/ or the Jerk go to lunch.

  29. Teacher's Wife*

    I accepted a job offer this week! Yay!

    However… This job involves a cross-country move, and my husband is a teacher who will have to quit his job in the middle of a school year as a result. He’s unsure how much notice to give since he’s never seen a coworker leave under similar circumstances (he’s only seen teachers leave mid-year if they get fired or go on maternity leave). His mentors have reassured him that this is a valid reason to leave mid-year, but he’s not sure how to handle it.

    What would be a good MINIMUM amount of notice to give as a teacher leaving mid-year? My husband keeps saying “as much notice as possible” but that isn’t helpful. I’m assuming it should be more than the 2 weeks of notice I’ll give at my own job though?

    The complicated part is that I’m waiting on the background check to finish before I consider it official and agree on a start date. I don’t think it makes sense for my husband to give notice before we actually know exactly when we’ll be moving, but he wants to give them as much of a heads up as possible, so he does not want to wait for the background check to finish. I’m fairly confident that my background check will go smoothly but there’s always a 1% chance that something could fall through, so it seems risky for either of us to give notice before that.

    1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Wondering if there’s a way you can go ahead of him, which will allow him additional notice? As HR and knowing how background checks can go unexpectedly south for some of the wildest reasons, I don’t recommend he give notice now. He’s better off giving notice once you’ve been formally green lighted for a start date.

      There are real benefits to having a partner hang back short term with these kinds of moves – dealing with moving logistics, etc. – and if you’re getting any sort of compensation as a result of the relocation all the better.

      1. Teacher's Wife*

        Yes, I am definitely planning on going ahead of him! At least a few weeks ahead, but hopefully not 6 months ahead, which is around how long it would be if he finished the school year.

      2. Teacher's Wife*

        I also think one reason he’s itching to bring it up is because he has a meeting with the principal coming up so I think he just sees it as a good opportunity to mention it. But it’s validating to hear your POV that it’s still risky!

    2. Cheese*

      He’s right that “as soon as possible” is considered appropriate — in general, I’ve seen people who leave midyear try to finish out a quarter/semester/trimester, whatever the school runs on if that’s possible. If he’s union, he should check his contract to see if there’s any language about it, as well.

    3. Who cares*

      I am not a teacher, but I suspect (given the teacher shortage) that the risk of your husband being pushed out early is much lower than for other professions. So there is potentially not much risk for him telling them now. And if the offer fell through for some reason, they’d likely just let him stay, but I understand your concern.

      1. Jeneral*

        I’m a teacher, and I would let him handle it how he thinks is best. He’s not going to be pushed out early, and the reason for the move is understandable, so if by chance it fell through, they’d probably just be glad he could stay. Telling the principal in person is important too, and they’re very busy.

    4. HugeTractsofLand*

      I work at a school and I think ideally your husband would give at least a month’s notice. Schools want consistency for the kids and gradebooks, so they’re very unlikely to push him out early. If he’s able to time things so he finishes up the term (quarter/semester/trimester/etc), that would be best. A lot of schools have a stable of subs they can pull from to fill the teacher gap before they hire a long-term sub.

      1. Teacher's Wife*

        I think a month sounds like a totally reasonable minimum! I will suggest that to him. Thank you!

    5. HonorBox*

      How good is your husband’s relationship with his principal or HR? This might be a situation where I’d suggest going to them, outlining that you’ve received a job offer and don’t have anything official for start date yet, but he wants to check to see what expectation there is for him giving notice once you have something concrete from new job. It would be ideal for him, I have to imagine, to finish out a grading period and give them enough time to find a long-term substitute. If he floats this as a real possibility and is asking to help the school as best as he can, I would guess that he’ll get a good answer and more support in the long run.

      1. Teacher's Wife*

        That’s fair. He has a meeting coming up with his principal and I think he views it as a good opportunity to give them a heads up. He’s already mentioned it to coworkers but that’s obviously not quite the same as formally giving notice.

    6. M2*

      He should give as much notice as possible so they can find another teacher.

      Most likely those kids will end up with a long term sub unless he gives more notice. My child had a long term sub when a teacher gave 2 weeks notice and another one who had a long term sub when their teacher went on mat leave and both subs were awful. I live in a town with the top school system in the state and one of the top 4 public school states in the Us. I pay an insane amount in property taxes so teachers are paid well and given excellent healthcare and pensions.

      I would wait until the check comes through then as for longer start date so he can give more notice. 2 weeks notice is not enough time and it is not fair to the students. Also, what is in his contract? Is he in a union? He should check with the union but it would be good to finish up the year so they can have a new teacher start in January. Any job can wait for you to start in January 2 or you move ahead of your husband who can stay there and stay with someone for a couple weeks to finish out the school year. I have lived away from my spouse for months at a time and it’s fine.

      I wouldn’t want that bridge burned for him where someone calls for a reference and they hear he only gave 2 weeks notice as a teacher or you having to move back cross country and they know him not by being a good teacher but by how he left.

      Congrats on the new job!

      1. HonorBox*

        Your contract/union points are great. I’ll second that as additions to what I said above. There may be guidance there, and I’d check with a union rep before going to the principal or HR.

      2. Teacher's Wife*

        To clarify, he was never considering giving only 2 weeks of notice. I wouldn’t encourage him to do that. I also wouldn’t be starting until January at the earliest anyway, so we still have plenty of time. I’m already planning on moving slightly ahead of him, but hopefully by a few weeks or maybe a month, as we can’t really afford to pay double rent, utilities, etc. for much longer than that, especially since we’re moving to an area with a much higher COL. If he didn’t want to consider leaving mid-year at all (and I initially didn’t think he would be willing to), I would understand and we would find a way to make it work, but it would be a financial strain that we would rather avoid if possible. What we’re struggling with is agreeing on how much time is reasonable – he’s eager to tell them ASAP but I don’t think it would hurt to wait another month or two, especially if he wouldn’t even be leaving until January or February.

    7. Cards fan*

      Retired teacher here. Our state required 30 days notice for mid-year moves such as this. Shorter notices could trigger suspension/revocation of our state’s teaching certificate (now they are licenses). With the current teaching shortages, I doubt the state messes with anyone’s license unless the notice/reason for leaving is particularly short or egregious.

    8. Clisby*

      Is there some reason he needs to move at the same time you do?

      I understand both of you might consider that the ideal situation, but there are plenty of times when couples don’t move at the same time.

      I don’t know from the letter whether this is in the US, but if so your husband definitely should check on legal constraints. I have no idea how it works with a union, but in my state (SC) a public school teacher who breaks a contract mid-year faces the possibility of a year-long suspension of their teaching license.

    9. Yoli*

      I used to be a school admin and have had people leave at all different points of the year (sometimes to move, sometimes just because). If he can give notice in November, that’d be ideal because that gives admin 2 breaks (Thanksgiving and Winter) to work on finding someone. (When I was an admin we got part of the break off but not the full time and it was helpful to have some non-staff/student work days to plan ahead on all kinds of things.) That also gives time to make a temporary coverage plan and set expectations about sub plans (e.g., if Unit 3 is harder to teach than Unit 2, maybe he starts Unit 3 and leaves Unit 2 for a sub who’s just getting their bearings to do).

      There’s pretty much no chance they let him go early or that, if it somehow fell through, they’d push him out–he’s right in this case that as much notice as possible is appropriate in education, since everyone has the goal of making the transition as easy as possible on the students.

    10. Finella*

      Absolute minimum of a month, but that’s really pushing it and I’d only do that if I really couldn’t give more. I’d aim for three months if at all possible, for the sake of the students of nothing else.

  30. Justme, The OG*

    So… a coworker on a different team was told that their job would be going away at the end of the calendar year. We have stipulations that our jobs can go away per the needs of the programs (yay state universities) but I am not 100% convinced that their termination wasn’t for them belonging to a protected class. I don’t want to step on their toes and say something to HR if they don’t want to. But I also am pissed off that this happened.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          But have you checked in specifically about this concern? This is not the sort of thing that most people are going to bring up in casual conversation.

    2. She said what???*

      I would suggest you step carefully here. I’ve been in a position twice to know behind-the-scenes issues were wildly inconsistent with the released employee’s sincere belief that the only reason they were dismissed was personal issues or attributes vs that they were absolutely not competent to do the jobs they were in. It would have been perfectly plausible in one case, particularly, for the employee’s perception to be factual. Even some coworkers wouldn’t have been privy to the worst of the the documented serious ethical and regulatory lapses. If you have substantial visibility into this person’s role and conduct from the level of a supervisor, then perhaps get involved.

    3. Kay*

      Unless you have lots more information than you have shared here, simply be the best support you can for your friend.

  31. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    This is more of a vent, but has this happened to anyone else? This situation isn’t changing so I’m starting to look for a new job.

    My supervisor quit a few weeks ago, so now I’m reporting to his boss (“Blake”) for the time being while we look for his replacement. Blake is sexist, sneaky, and prefers to take the path of least resistance. He’s excellent at not making decisions and instead deflects onto everyone else.

    Now that my former boss left, suddenly Blake has all these projects and new things he wants the team to do, and since I’m the most senior member, this all falls on me.

    This is basically the glass cliff, but I’m just really annoyed at the situation with how he doesn’t say anything with my former (male) boss, and now that he’s left, I have to clean everything up.

    Also I’m like, why didn’t Blake talk to him about these things during their 1:1s? What on earth did they spend that time talking about?

    1. Annony*

      It is possible that they did talk about these things and either your supervisor had the capital/tenure/status to push back or it contributed to him leaving.

      I’m sorry you are dealing with it. It definitely sucks to have to deal directly with a sexist boss who has unrealistic expectations.

  32. Finn*

    This may be a stupid question, but what does a manager do all day? Surely, hiring and firing people, tracking everyone’s performance, and giving people performance reviews doesn’t take 8 hours each day, 5 days a week, 40+ weeks a year? So I’d guess there’s a lot of stuff that I’m not seeing… But what is all this stuff that’s not directly visible? Or does the stuff I did notice take much more time than I’d have expected?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Short-term planning.
      Long-term planning.
      Reviewing status.
      Making mid-course corrections.
      Communicating with clients/stakeholders.
      Reporting & analysis.
      Supporting sales & marketing.
      Lots and lots of reading – business news, policy changes, etc.

    2. KitKat*

      It depends on the manager and the role. I manage 2 people and spend 15-25% of my time on team management, depending on the week. The rest of my work is almost entirely unrelated. Of my team management time, I’m:
      – meeting with them
      – planning team meetings / discussion topics
      – reviewing their work & preparing to give feedback
      – helping them think through/develop their goals
      – meeting with others about requests for my team’s time
      – evaluating/scoping/planning projects before delegating to them
      – developing presentations for my bosses & peers about my team’s priorities & goals

    3. Tio*

      A lot of what management does is higher level policy planning and implementing, sourcing and scoping new projects, and establishing procedures. So someone in the ivory tower decides we’re going to start doing llama washing, I need to scope out how to schedule llama washings in the system, what supplies are needed, costs, process flow (i.e. should we wash them before or after the haircut?) and responsibilities. Now some of that involves breaking things down and assigning them to specific teams, like the scheduling I give the idea to the person who handles scheduling cuts, consult with them and possibly others on whether we can use the same system for washing, do we need a new one, etc. I have to hand out these responsibilities and follow up on them and test the plans and help troubleshoot. I have to liase with other departments for upstream and downstream implications. I also have to manage out external partners and their KPIs and meet with them to ensure we have capacity for future endeavors, and that they’re doing well on their current KPIs – which I probably was the one who established. (I being a manager, not necessarily the exact same one if there are already set KPIs, but I would be responsible for reviewing existing KPIs if I came in as a new manager). I order to plan for future endeavors I have to forecast and analyze or gather the forecasts and analytics. I have to review our budget. I have to keep an eye on my employees’ performance, through employee KPIs and head off any problem at the pass. I probably have a lot of meetings with other departments and higher management for goal alignment. And that’s just what I can think of here.

    4. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      It’s going to depend on the job, but generally speaking, most managers IME aren’t doing strictly people management.

    5. Name name name*

      Where I am, it’s a lot of support for issues that for whatever reason escalate, whether it’s advising the people who report to me or being part of other conversations to work through the problem.

    6. CommanderBanana*

      I just stepped into a management position with 2 direct reports that are new, plus my position is now open, so I am:

      1. doing 100% of my former job
      2. doing most of my direct report’s jobs because they are new, while
      3. trying to train them, while
      4. trying to teach them our office norms, while
      5. training them on our very complicated systems, while
      6. reviewing all their work, because they’re new, while
      7. going through all their work with them, which takes longer than if I just did it myself, while
      8. also traveling to conventions, whie
      9. also dealing with other ongoing, longer-term projects, while
      10. communicating all of this to my boss.

      Managing people has made my job much, much harder.

    8. Rex Libris*

      It’s very field and department dependent. Speaking for myself, part of it is the hiring, firing, check ins, feedback, evaluations, etc. Then there is strategic planning, guiding the overall direction of the department, making sure workflow is efficient, and that our department is adequately supporting the other departments.

      Beyond that, managing a fairly large budget with a lot of moving parts, reviewing, writing and implementing policies and procedures, working with other managers on system wide projects and problems, maintaining organizational statistics, overseeing and maintaining several computer services, functioning as a subject matter expert in certain areas, committee work, covering other essential functions when staff are out, etc.

    9. Stuff*

      This is going to be very workplace dependent, but personally, I spend half my time doing the same work tasks I did before I was a manager, and a lot of the remainder acting as my department’s representative in meetings with other departments and outside agencies. 95% of the new tasks becoming a manager put on my plate involve meetings where I have to speak for the activities or interests of my department or my university.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yeah — I pretty much do the same stuff I did as a team lead, plus all the HR responsibilities. (Kinda want to go back to being a team lead sometimes. :P )

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Other than that, it is strongly dependent on the team and organization. (And level within the organization.)

    11. Mad Harry Crewe*

      1:1 meetings with team members
      Handling customer escalations
      Reviewing and advising how someone should handle an unusual issue
      Interfacing with other teams
      Prioritizing tickets
      Surprise urgent problem handling
      Making sure the team has the resources they need, researching or requesting those resources if not

    12. Generic Name*

      I’m a low level manager at a huge corporation (there are like 7 levels between me and the CEO). I have 3 direct reports. There are 2 main management components to my job- 1) personnel management and 2) managing staff in technical work. the personnel management involves:
      -quarterly check ins with direct reports
      -ad hoc check ins (both initiated by me or my reports)
      -participating in annual reviews
      -workload planning meetings
      -meetings with department leadership on various management issues
      -participate in interviews and other hiring discussions
      -act as informal mentor to junior staff
      -provide input on departmental SOPs, business planning, staffing levels
      This takes up maybe a quarter of my time; not that much.

      The other part, where I’m managing staff who are working on technical projects, takes up maybe half of my time. I train staff to do various technical tasks, I oversee staff who are the lead on projects and provide input and support as needed. I do qc reviews on technical documents. If there are problems with other departments, I help my staff to resolve issues, bringing in upper management support if needed.

      Lastly, I have my own workload. I work on proposals, I provide support to active projects, I manage subconsultants (which includes reviewing their work, contracting/change orders), advising upper management on issues that come up, interfacing with agencies as necessary.

      I work at a meeting heavy company, and during busy times, I’m spending 6 hours plus in meetings.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        You only check in QUARTERLY with your direct reports? I wouldn’t want to do less than biweekly, and that’s with other regular team meetings and regular Slack messages.

    13. Another Kristin*

      A big part is advocating for your team. Say you manage a teapot production team, and a VP comes to you about adding a production run of custom teapots for Gary’s new project. Your job is to see if your team has capacity to meet this request, and if it doesn’t, push back on it. “We are stretched too thin already, I’m not asking my team to work overtime or risk burning them out. If Gary’s teapots are indispensable I’ll need to hire at least 2 contractors” etc etc.

    14. Qwerty*

      Work Hours
      – Meetings
      – More meetings
      – Meetings about meetings
      – Prepping for meetings

      At least that what it feels like. My days are all the things that need to happen for the individual contributors to have what they need and run smoothly
      – Lots of dealing with unplanned items as they come up
      – Requirements gathering, refining, debating, designing, writing up proposals, plans, etc
      – Ad hoc mentoring and putting out fires
      – Writing metrics queries, building dashboards, analyzing bottlenecks

      My dance teacher’s catchphrase was “It takes a lot of effort to look effortless” and I feel like that applies to a lot of management. Its easier to know what a manager does when they are not doing it, because then a bigger problem develops

    15. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      My job is very heavily weighted toward people-management, I have six direct reports and an additional twelve skip-level reports. So it breaks down something like this:
      – We are frequently hiring, and when I don’t have a job posted, I’m passively recruiting, relationship-building with people I really want to hire someday, networking in places that have potential to source strong candidates, etc.: 15% of my time.
      – Direct staff management – weekly check-ins with all direct reports, quarterly check-ins with skip-level reports, assessments, thinking through raises/promotions/professional dev, reviewing high-stakes work, responding to questions, etc.: 25% of my time
      – Strategic planning and direction setting – working with leadership to identify priorities and goals for my department, analyzing progress toward goals at the 5,000-foot level, developing and managing budgets: 30% of my time
      – Cross-team management: Reading other departments’ strategic plans or project plans and providing feedback, meeting monthly with my peers in other departments to share feedback and problem-solve challenges, working with c-suite execs to advocate for things my department needs or help them understand a key project (often involves developing presentations, memos and data visualizations), aligning my department’s processes with other departments’ needs etc.: 10% of my time
      – Admin: Approving expense requests, intra-team coordination, financial reporting, ensuring we are following all HR/cybersecurity/etc. policies, improving process efficiency, etc: 10% of my time
      – Individual contributor work: My department’s work has an emergency-response component, so I sometimes jump in on things I’m either uniquely skilled for or when we need coverage on something unexpected. Sometimes we also get contracts that are so large or otherwise high-stakes that I really have to be the lead on them; I may delegate implementation work to my team but I’m the primary face for the clients and the primary decision-maker. I reserve 10% of my time for this.

    16. sigh*

      depends on the level of management, type of role, and industry. I would say reviewing work / performance and managing tasks coming in and going out can be huge.

    17. A Person*

      Lots of people have given lots of good answers, but the other one I will call out here is cross team communication and wrangling can take a LOT of time depending on the company and role. Ideally I’m answering simple questions, stopping duplicative or underspecified requests, and sharing existing work with cross team partners without my team having to jump on the question every time. This lets them have time for heads down work. It also means when I was a combined IC / Manager I would generally try to save the “meaty” projects for people who would be more focused.

    18. fhqwhgads*

      Never underestimate the amount of time “my direct report has a quick question for 15 minutes – but that turned into an hour” takes out of a week. Also planning meetings, action items that came out of meetings. Etc.

    19. MsJDH*

      I used to manage 2 small teams – I had 12 direct reports. I also had accounts that I worked with directly. (Incidentally, I stopped being a manager bc it was either that or a nervous breakdown and I wanted a break.) I spent about 30-40% of my time on my clients. The rest of the time, I was:
      – meeting separately with both teams (usually weekly)
      – helping resolve client problems
      – compiling reports and analysis for the c-suite
      – reviewing/auditing the work of my direct reports
      – when needed, taking corrective action for ongoing problems.
      – acted a playground monitor for fully grown adults who can manage their own emotions and differences of opinion in a professional manner (No, Susan, you cannot tell Julie she’s an idiot for that mistake (even if I agreed it was truly idiotic)).
      – communicating with outside vendors
      – setting goals with/for employees, then checking in on status
      – determining training needs, then either providing the training or coordinating it with whoever was providing it
      – weekly check in with my boss (she may have called them weekly breakdowns at the end there)
      – working with other managers to maintain consistency across our department
      – build/write workflows and procedures.
      – argue with employees about why they did in fact need to follow changes to their workflows and procedures.
      – rewrite workflows and procedures to based on well founded team feedback
      – mentor/guide new employees
      – work on other projects, i. e. implementing new software, getting upgraded technology up and running
      ( – argue with employees about how the new tech or software will actually help once they learn it)
      – play mediator between sales and service staff who have wildly different communication styles and expectations.

      So there was a lot. I actually really enjoyed a lot of aspects of my old position, but my mental health had been flushed down the toilet and was hanging out in the sewer due to the stress. So now I’m a trainer, I mentor people, and I have a bunch of accounts that I handle.

      Oh god, I forgot one.
      – documentation. (notes for employee convos, meeting notes, notes for employee convos, reports on research I did, notes for employee convos)

    20. Bike Walk Barb*

      Within what kind of organization and with how many levels above the manager? How many direct reports doing what kind of work? The label “manager” applies to many different levels of responsibility depending on the organization.

      The managers who report to me as a director are handling higher-level topics and projects that may roll up what the SMEs who report to them work on, but may be completely independent and and fulfill things I’ve asked them to think about or plan for. They’re SMEs and individual contributors in their own right. They work with their teams to develop a spending plan within our overall budget, track its use, and we adjust as needed. They’re always learning about the broader issues that are context for our work and using that to shape policy and develop updates to procedures. They collaborate with others in the organization and do things to smooth the way for our SMEs in their work with other units. Their direct reports bring issues that have to be resolved, sometimes taking a lot of time to work through in the context of whether it’s a one-time problem or something that will establish a precedent going forward. They have relationships beyond the organization that they steward to enhance our work. We collectively respond to requests that come to us from higher in the organization. Their work isn’t all related to the things you listed by a long shot.

    21. Anon. Scientist*

      Well, I manage a group of 17 and my billability target is 65%. I *only* have 7 direct reports, but they’re the most junior staff so they need a lot of coaching. I have about 8 hours of meetings with various staff. If there’s a performance issue that I’m documenting/working on, that’s probably 8 hours a week. I probably have 4 hours a week on pop up issues that only the person with the issue knows about; these can come from any direction. If I’m actively hiring and the position has multiple strong candidates, that’s probably 8 hours a week. Corporate strategic stuff is periodic but works out to about an hour a week.

      So I work way more than 40 hours/week but that’s why I get the 6 figure salary.

  33. Elsewise*

    Small work win! I negotiated an offer for the first time ever!

    Most of my life I’ve ever been too inexperienced to know I could negotiate, or too desperate to try. I resolved to do it no matter what when I got offered the job I’m currently in… and then the hiring manager came to me with an offer that was slightly above the “pie in the sky, I’ll ask for it but I know I won’t get it” number I had in mind. So I just accepted it as-is.

    Now a promotion I’ve been waiting for for ages finally came through! My boss has done a great job advocating for me, and privately told me that I’m unlikely to get more money but should ask for other things. So I wrote out an email stating what I’d been looking for in terms of financial compensation, and offering a few other options. My boss told me they’d met with the person who will be supervising me and their mutual boss and all three of them were so excited to see me negotiate. According to my boss “it shows you’re enthusiastic about this job and that you know your worth.”

    So that’s my win! I’ll find out next week what their counter-offer is, but probably accept it regardless, because it’s still more money and a job I’ve been wanting to do for a while. I used a lot of advice on this site in crafting my response, so a huge thank you to Alison and to all of the commentators who’ve provided advice over the years!

  34. Ihmmy*

    I can feel myself getting closer and closer to burnout. We did a major software update a month and a half ago and I keep finding substantial bugs (the vendor has been good about helping with them but they can take a while to fix), I had a surprise short term medical leave amidst that, and we’re going to be trialing some new software soon. I haven’t even had time to look at the details of the new stuff, nor think proactively about anything – I’m just in constant trying to catch up or maintain bare minimums of our systems. Now we need to present to others about how our work intersects with a specific business priority (mine sort of barely does, my work is pretty siloed) and talk about how we can support others work… I can’t. Y’all I need them to support my shit, to talk about why it’s important when they work with stakeholders. I just really miss being able to think ahead a little instead of constantly feeling like I’m scrambling to keep things from exploding badly.

    1. Scriveaaa*

      Could you approach your presentation as a ‘Help me help you’ kind of thing?’ Even just thinking about it mentally that way could help it be less frustrating.

      Outside of that, I really hope you get a chance to breathe (or even better, a vacation) sometime soon.

  35. Dek*

    We had a Staff Appreciation Day this week. The main point was my coworker reaching 10 years. She’s one of three people in my department. Both our supervisor and the other coworker gave a short speech about how much they treasure here *and* stood with her to take her picture with her certificate.

    Not begrudging that. She’s a lovely person, does good work, and has helped put on some nice things for the staff.

    But.

    I hit my 10 year last year. And yeah, I got the certificate. And yes, I know my supervisor dislikes me, and I certainly wasn’t expecting *her* to give a speech, even though most supervisors at least said a few words. Which, she didn’t. She wasn’t even the one who presented my certificate. I took my photo alone.

    It hurt then, and it hurt again this year, seeing how *much* celebration my coworker got (heck, someone in another department even brought around a congratulations card, and I signed it but also like…yeah)

    Most of the time I’ve made peace with the fact that my supervisor and department members openly exclude me from their social things, that I’m the odd one out, that there are double-standards regarding time being made up etc. It’s how it is.

    It just…really stung this week. I wasn’t expecting it to, but it hurt. And it still frustrates me a bit that this is just…fine.

    1. MsM*

      I’m sorry. For what it’s worth, I’m proud of you. Is 10 years a good opportunity to take stock of whether it’s time to think about a change, or do you have reasons for staying that outweigh being out of step with the rest of this department?

      1. Dek*

        My main reason for staying is that I actually like my job, both the steadiness of it, and the actual work itself. I wouldn’t be able to do a similar job without completely uprooting myself from my home and my family, and that really doesn’t seem worth it.

        I’ve never had a job that didn’t have some crappy aspects to it. The ones here, for the most part, are things I’ve made peace with.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I’ve definitely been there. For me, nothing is going to make it feel great, but at times like these I like to take stock; how much is it impacting you in wider ways? In some places the popularity contest doesn’t matter in the slightest to how you are treated professionally, it’s just that some people really put a lot of time into cultivating relationships and/or are thoughtless and don’t separate friendship from work. In other places, not being best mates with the clique is an active hindrance to getting on.

    3. ruthling*

      This sort of thing has happened to me several times, and yeah, it stings. No advice, just commiseration.

    4. You Don't Deserve That*

      The best thing I did for myself when I was in a similar situation was find a new gig. I don’t know how applicable that is for you in your situation, but I hope you are in a position to consider it. There were many other factors that had me job searching at the time, and this was nowhere near the top of the list of reasons I needed to leave that job. I honestly don’t think I factored it in. But! It was IMMENSELY helpful for my mental health to not be surrounded by people actively excluding me (or those that found going along with folks excluding me politically expedient). Being around people that are actively unkind messed with me in ways I didn’t realize and it was as if a fog lifted when I got out of there.

      1. Dek*

        I love my actual job. The coworkers outside of the three people in my department are lovely. Considering the last job I was at before this one (which was so bad it essentially gave me a sleep disorder, and two separate panic attacks), this one is still a step up, and it’s also not the sort of work I’d be able to find anywhere else without actually moving to a new city or state, which would probably not be great for my mental health.

        1. allathian*

          I’m so sorry. Could you do your job or something similar for another department/supervisor? Being excluded like that isn’t good for your mental health, either.

          1. Dek*

            I did try to switch departments once, but it was a no-go. I do wind up doing a fair bit of work with another department, so when I’m in that area it’s much more pleasant. And I have a lot of other coworkers in our overarching department (not under my supervisor) who do include me.

            It really was doing a number on me for a bit, no lie. But I’ve made a lot of progress since then (and medication/therapy hooray!), and the work itself can be really rewarding–I get to work with a lot of really old, unique materials (a military magazine from the Jacobite rebellion and a book of etchings from Louis XIV’s library were big highlights, as well as a copy of the manifest of the ship my ancestors came to the states on), so really, the trade-off isn’t as bad as it could be.

            I was just feeling a little crummy last week because it was fresh. Most days it’s really not such an issue.

  36. Nail colors for work?*

    I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on nails/nail colors in the workplace! For those of you working in-person in an office, what is your sense of what nail colors/styles are appropriate for the office? Most of the blog posts on the topic I’ve seen are from before 2020, and I feel like workplace norms have shifted since then, even for those of us who do not work from home.

    (I’m wondering because I painted my (short, well-cared-for) nails black recently, and even though no one has commented on it, I feel like I’ve sort of broken a rule having black nails in a business casual office!)

    2. MsM*

      Depends how conservative the dress code is in general, I think. I wouldn’t wear my sparkly multicolored skittles if I worked in finance or corporate law, but here either no one notices or thinks they’re fun.

    3. CTT*

      I work in a law firm and have seen every color under the sun, including black, so I think you’re safe!

    4. Bella Ridley*

      It’s going to be largely too dependent on your office culture to say. Could go any way. If most other people dress very conservatively at your office, that will probably extend to nail colour as well. If it’s business casual and more relaxed, more colours probably open up. I think as a general rule, anything along the red-pink spectrum or in the nude family is going to be acceptable more or less anywhere nail polish is allowed in general. Dark colours are moving one step out of conservatism but not outrageously so, so a dark purple, brown, maybe even a navy blue are going to be fine.

      Where you might run into raised eyebrows would be anything super bright and colourful, glittery, nail art, or any of the more trendy nail shapes (might not be the place for stiletto or coffins). This isn’t to say that those are inherently unprofessional, because again it will depend on your office, but they might be looked at differently than a standard-issue ballet-slipper-pink manicure.

    5. Ferret*

      Black should be fine – I think that in most offices any monochrome option is ok as long as you keep them neat looking

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My nails are currently dark blue. If I had a client meeting today I wouldn’t expect anyone to blink. I work in a fairly casual field– things do vary depending on industry and office. I have always worked in business casual offices, very client-facing, and I am a very conservative dresser. My nails are usually blue or purple or some variation thereof.

      These days, I think it’s less about color than it is about shape. There’s nothing wrong with long nails, but I’ve seen some very long, pointy nails with elaborate nail art, and if someone is client-facing I think that’s risky just because it’s such a statement that it can be distracting. You don’t want a client spending a meeting wondering how you take out your contact lenses. That said, I don’t think any nail style is truly inappropriate for an office unless your nails constantly make distracting clicking noises (most people I’ve known with super long nails know how to type without that being an issue).

    8. Too Long Til Retirement*

      I’m a designer and I wear whatever color I want! Sometimes I feel weird about wearing a bright neon green to a big meeting so I will choose something else depending on the upcoming week, but overall I have flexibility.

    9. Watry*

      I checked and our handbook says that fingernails must be “of a conservative tone, color, and/or design”, raised elements are not allowed, and neither are bright or neon polish colors. However, this policy is the same for Llama Groomers, Llama Watchers, and people who don’t even come into contact with the llamas, so frankly I think it’s overdoing it a bit for most people. Bright blue (or black) polish is not going to scandalize the public.

    10. CommanderBanana*

      I feel like black nail polish has become way more common, especially in the fall/winter when everyone’s busting out the darker colors.

      This is really job- and office-dependent.
      I wear the same color red year-round and I wear almond dip powder nails that come to a point just beyond my fingers. I can’t wear them longer because I start having trouble typing. I have coworkers who have worn statement nails and it was just their Thing, like someone wearing a particular color lipstick or type of shoe.

      The only time I had a coworker who nails were distracting was a marketing admin who wore the longest, sharpest, curved-est talon nails I have ever seen. They were like 5 inches long. She only ever wore solid colors, no rhinestones or designs, and talon nails were clearly her Thing, but they were so incredibly long and sharp and curved that I always wondered how she navigated life with them.

    11. Keep it Simple*

      Anyone who worries about their co-worker’s nail polish color has WAY too much time on their hands. Do whatever nail colors float your boat!

    12. Rex Libris*

      Among our managers, I know at least one person regularly paints their nails black, and one favors sparkly purple or blue. Admittedly it’s a public library and not a corporate office, so mileage may vary.

    13. WantonSeedStitch*

      Depends strongly on the office. In my office (non-academic department of a university), no one would bat an eyelash.

    14. Generic Name*

      I work for a construction company in the west, and our dress code is “smart casual”. As far as nail colors goes, anything goes. one of my coworkers has red-tipped nails with a “dripping blood” pattern for halloween, another routinely has flashy nail art in a variety of colors. I can’t recall specifically if I’ve seen black, but I don’t think it would be particularly remarkable.

    15. Bast*

      I work in a law firm. My nails are my natural nails, and usually painted. Sometimes, during the holidays I will add in a fun twist — pumpkin or moons and stars in October, hearts during February, that sort of thing. No one has said anything negative. I’ve gotten many compliments from clients and others. I have seen staff in other offices I’ve worked for who have really long, fake nails with gemstones, neon colors, and the like. That seems to be fine in office, but I’d still be hesitant about wearing those into court.

    16. MissMaple*

      I’m an engineer and I wear pretty much whatever color strikes me, though I tend toward either a thin layer of something clear/slightly sparkly, or full out unicorn blue iridescent depending how I’m feeling. I mostly make sure to take off the more ridiculous colors before they start chipping but that’s just me.

    17. Can't Sit Still*

      I had blue nails (fingers & toes!) in a conservative accounting firm a decade ago. It wasn’t a problem at all. The dress code was otherwise pretty conservative: natural hair colors, no jeans or denim, no t-shirts, no sneakers or other athletic gear, etc.

    18. Policy Wonk*

      I work in a very conservative government agency, and I have seen everything under the sun in terms of colors, including black. So I would say norms have shifted.

    19. Morgi Corgi*

      One of the women I work with has black nails. I think they’re perfectly fine, especially around this time of year. I’ve seen other people in our office with fun nail colors and have had some pretty wild nail colors myself. Our clients love my nails! I get lots of compliments on them.

    20. JustaTech*

      My job is mostly in the lab (so, internal-facing) on the casual end of business casual and I’m wearing glow-in-the-dark nail stickers of the Eagle Nebula from Espionage Cosmetics. So, very multicolored if not obviously patterned.
      Absolutely not a big deal here, but I’ll have to take them off to go into our manufacturing plant (for facility cleanliness reasons).

      It’s all very office dependent.

    21. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve always worn whatever dark colors grabbed my attention – dark blue, green, burgundy, brown. I frequently have one nail painted a different color than the others, usually because I messed it up the first time and tried again with a different brush :P

      That said, I prefer a matte topcoat to a regular shiny one, and I find that it both lasts longer before chipping and also looks a little fancier, possibly because it’s less common?

    22. MsJDH*

      I work in what used to be a pretty conservative insurance agency – our dress code has relaxed substantially since the pandemic. We don’t have any rules on nail color/design, length, or shape, with the understanding that your nails (and in fact your whole appearance) are appropriate for your job. For example, I go out in the field to meet clients, most of whom tend to be 50+ men who are farmers or in ag-related jobs. I would not want to show up with really flashy nails because they might have an *opinion* on that, and as a young-ish woman from a city, I’m starting with a bit of a disadvantage. (Similarly, I don’t wear a lot of skirts, dresses or heels to work any more, because I might have a last minute call out to someone’s tomato field, and they would probably not trust someone to understand their industry if they don’t dress appropriately for it.)

    23. Random Bystander*

      When I was in-office, we were business casual. My daughter was also hugely into nail decorating (she was really into the youtube channel “cutepolish”) and would do my nails for me every Sunday.

      So, some of the nails that I wore to work: candy corn (orange, yellow, white), galaxy, monarch butterfly, cherry blossom, ladybugs, cheetah print (in pink and white), polkadots (many different base colors/dot colors), and I don’t remember what all. I don’t think too many people have that kind of time these days–but I’d consider any colors that are in the essie or OPI or other drugstore brands to be perfectly fine. As long as the fingernails aren’t getting in the way of performing job duties, I’d think that anything goes in a business casual setting.

    24. allathian*

      When I still wore makeup and painted my nails, they were often black, with or without a glittery topcoat, especially in fall and winter.

  37. corporatekween*

    This is possibly a really out-there question, but it came up in conversation with a friend recently, so I’m curious to see what the AAM community thinks!

    Professionally, I’m currently in a hybrid admin/customer service role. I’m also a drag queen, and for the past year-ish I’ve been working regularly with the staff of a local bar to organize performances to showcase local drag talent. I don’t plan on leaving my current job any time soon, but I’ve been contemplating updating my resume to include the event planning I’ve done with this bar. So I guess my question is twofold:

    1) Should I do this? I’ve gained a lot of valuable event planning and marketing skills from doing this, so I think it would add to my resume, but I know that there’s been a lot of anti-drag sentiment floating around and I don’t want to risk that causing problems in my job search.

    2) If I did do this, how would I include the information on my resume? I get paid per show, but I’m technically not employed by the bar (woooo, artistry!). The bar management knows who I am and would be able to speak to my experience there if someone reached out, but since I’m technically not an “employee,” should I still list that under experience, or would I be better off putting this under voleunteer activity?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      1) One way of looking at this is, if they wouldn’t hire you because you did event planning for drag shows, they also wouldn’t want to hire you if they knew you were a drag queen, and maybe that’s a good way of pruning that kind of employer.

      2) You don’t have to have an employer for it to be a job – sounds like that’s just a self-employed side gig for you.

    2. Yes And*

      Easy part first: You’re a contractor, and that’s resume-worthy experience. You don’t have to be an employee to claim paid experience as work.

      I’m not qualified to say whether you *should* disguise the nature of the events you’re planning in order to avoid other people’s bigotry. But if you chose to do that, it should be easy enough to do. You list the name of the bar as the business that hired you, the dates you worked with them, and describe the nature of your accomplishments in planning and marketing these events. (Successfully produced # weekly events, increased attendance by y%, etc.) You don’t have to state the content of the events.

    3. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Does the bar pay you for the work? Or is otherwise paid event planning? If so, I would include it as consulting or independent contractor work. If you are doing it for free, I’d put it in a volunteer section.

      1. corporatekween*

        It’s…complicated. I get paid a flat rate for every show I perform in, either as an MC or as a part of the show bill itself, plus I get tips from audience members during performances. I don’t get paid for promoting the event, coordinating the show, or recruiting other performers. (For the record, this is pretty common for drag performers, especially in smaller cities like mine where the “scene” is smaller.)

    4. Person from the Resume*

      You are a self-employed producer of the show. I assume you recruit the performers, do marketing (social media, online, not online signs), plan the show, organize the logistics (online ticket sales, someone taking money at the door, etc), manage the personalities, etc. Great skills.

      OTOH I know this because I am friends with burlesque producer and comedians who organize and host shows. I wouldn’t bat an eye, but you know the attitude of your region and can take a guess at the the nature of the business you’re applying for.

      1. corporatekween*

        Yes, I do all of that! I love producing the shows and I’m really proud of the work I’ve done. The sticky part is that I’m paid strictly for the performances I do in the shows, not for putting the shows together (gotta love nightlife pay structures :’-) ).

        1. HonorBox*

          I think that’s a relatively easy grey area to wade through. They’re paying you, and your event planning/marketing experience is still being put to good use.

    5. HonorBox*

      1 – I’ll ask you this question back: Would you be interested in or willing to discontinue performing or organizing shows because a new employer wasn’t supportive? If so, then maybe you obscure the nature of the shows a bit. But if you’d like to work at a place that is supportive (I sure would!) then be very open about the nature of the shows.

      2 – You are an independent contractor who is planning and marketing special events. You’re not a volunteer, so this is definitely work experience.

    6. Hlao-roo*

      I agree that it should go under work experience, not volunteer experience (because you get paid–that’s work!). You can split up the “experience” section of your resume if you want, so the headings look something like this:

      [Current Industry] Experience
      Customer Service Role, Boring Day Job Corp. 2019-present
      *accomplishment

      Other Experience
      Drag Show Producer/Performer
      *accomplishment

  38. Dek*

    Different comment because this one is more a request for practical advice, but has any government employee here ever had any luck requesting for their pay to be bumped up to the next quartile?

    We had a pay adjustment a couple years ago, which was desperately needed, but I’m still below the first quartile (above minimum though), even though I’ve been here for ten years. I figure maybe it a thing to talk to payroll about? But I’m not sure how to even begin to go about it.

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Definitely worth raising. Outside of government, you would start with your manager – not sure if that’s different within government.

    2. govvie*

      Not sure how relevant this is to you, but the US federal government usually has strict quotas for the number of raises they can give in a year. For example, my office of 100 people can only give out one or two merit raises per year and no one can get a raise multiple raises in a row. It means that merit raises are basically reserved for only the most exceptional performance.

      That said, US federal employees do often get automatic within grade increases and COLA annual, so our wages are increasing a little each year.

      1. Dek*

        I’m a state employee, and I’ve never even heard that we get merit raises (although the COLA is tied to our performance review, so teeeechnically it is a merit raise).

        But considering that the best COLA you can get is 4% and our insurance goes up by 6%, it means just relying on that we essential get a 2% pay cut each year.

        I was kind of hoping that there would be a way to present it less as a raise and more as an adjustment, since they seem to have started some of us at the minimum quartile when they reworked the payschedule, when that’s defined as being new/still in training, while the first quartile is defined as being experienced.

        Ahh…bureaucracy…

  39. Anon for this*

    Would love advice or comments –

    I’ve recently started at an organisation where one of my direct reports is responsible for coordinating Teapot painting/ Teapot reviews. One of those roles where you are reaching out and checking in with a lot of people on whether work is happening. They work a very flexible schedule – compressed hours that are sometimes well outside usual office working hours with the non working day happening on different days each week.

    They are on top of their work, just they seem to catch up on work areas in big blocks – so it may not be unusual to log in one morning and find a big block of emails/meeting invites/replies to messages from them. I find this quite hard to adjust to (lots of information in one go, sometimes several emails on the same topic adding additional minor points sent a minute or two apart) and I’ve heard others in different departments giving this feedback too.

    I don’t want to be unfair here – others may also be working compressed hours but for whatever reason don’t send these huge blocks of messages out. Nor do I want to be slow in replying – but I know I’m doing that at the moment/only skimming the block of messages as the volume in the one go feels hard to digest /action.

    Am I being unfair here – and/or what feedback would you give to try to make the email flow a bit less all or nothing? Thanks

    1. Mutually supportive*

      I think this is more about being comfortable with your own workflow than giving feedback to them – can you learn to be comfortable with a block of emails “looking at you” for a while, knowing in your own mind that it’s perfectly reasonable to take all day to get around to answering them all (exactly as you would of they’d been sending them ad-hoc during the day).
      That is, can you manage your own expectations of you?

      The exception would be “adding minor points a minute or two apart” – if this is meaning that they follow up the same email multiple times as new thoughts pop into their head, then there’s definitely a conversation to be had about them taking more time to respond to the email fully and properly (are they trying to answer in a rush and not thinking properly?)
      Maybe they could draft their emails and save them, and then go back to review the drafts before sending? It’s reasonable to point out that them sending multiple responses to one email is generating more work for everyone else.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      They could use schedule send, to stagger their emails over a couple days but that seems unnecessary to me (and what if some of that block of info was urgent?) .

      For the too many emails complaint – Are there other forms of communication that would work better for the people getting annoyed with too many emails? Would a shared spreadsheet tracking progress be easier to check and comment? Would a dedicated slack channel they could mute work better?

      For the 3 emails in the same chain in 10min – you could suggest your report save emails as drafts, then send once checking everything is included. This approach does risk something coming up while an email sits in draft and getting stuck as a draft and forgotten though.

      For the too much information in one email complaint – I’m not sure how to address that one. Again maybe look at are there different forms of communicating this that would be better (slide deck, pdf of instructions on a share drive etc).

    3. HonorBox*

      I think it is about setting expectations on both sides. You may need to adjust to seeing the block of messages, and they may need to know that other aspects of your job may keep you from getting through all of them at one time.

      I do think you can point out that multiple messages on the same topic with minor updates will make it more likely that people are going to miss important details, will reply to the first without reading all of them, and potentially cause more work for all involved. This is something actionable they can work on… as in tell them that you need them to slow down a bit and ensure that all aspects of communication are included before they hit send.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you, lots for me to think about here – I really appreciate the ideas and comments.

  40. Nicosloanica*

    My boss is being fired/demoted and is warning me all sorts of things that probably don’t apply to me. “Don’t talk to this person, don’t have any one-on-one meetings with X, make sure to rewrite your job description now and defend yourself from Y and Z duty being added on.” I can’t tell her that in reality my goal is to get a new job and leave (this place is a dumpster fire) so I’m not sure what to say when she tells me these things. She’s equally guilty as the new person of dumping things that are outside my ‘technical’ job description on me anyway, and is actively doing so as she delegates tasks she won’t be able to do anymore, so it’s a bit rich. I do have sympathy for how hard this is on her, and it’s unfair in some ways, although to be honest she did just as bad or worse to past employees who I also felt empathy for.

    1. KitKat*

      I would be very bland and try not to get deeply engaged. “Thanks for sharing that with me.” “Okay, that’s interesting to know.” “Hmmm I’ll keep that in mind.” Remind yourself that it will stop on its own as she acclimates or you exit, whichever comes first.

  41. Aggretsuko*

    Well…would it have been any better for her to obviously, grudgingly, rudely pose for a picture with you or sing your praises when she dislikes you? Or have no praises at all and go “Here’s your award” and walk off? That seems to me to be worse than if she did what she did here.

    I get it. It sucks to be hated in the office when everyone else is loved. But her doing what she did seems better to me than her showing open dislike while going through the motions, I guess.

  42. Tradd*

    Removed — I prefer people not use the open thread as simply a log of what happened at work that week, but please feel free to post any specific questions.

  43. librariandragon*

    Not so much a question, but a thank you (to Allison and the commentariat). I’m scrolling through advice and comments trying to calm my nerves in advance of a second (final) interview this afternoon. I’ve become more confident in asking questions and advocating for myself, and even if this position doesn’t work out, I feel less defeatist about my chances thanks to the community of this site. <3

    (Send good vibes towards the East Coast in about two hours for me. I think if I tell myself not to panic enough it might keep me from shaking out of my shoes!)

      1. librariandragon*

        Well, it was scheduled for an hour, with the opportunity to go over if we needed more time, and I walked out two and a half hours later after they asked to contact my references/current manager. So I’m feeling pretty good about at least having a really lovely afternoon conversation…

  44. Annony*

    It is so hard to sit back and wait after an interview! I had an in person interview on Monday and I want to know if I got it or not. They told me I was the third of three candidates they interviewed and that it will be a few weeks until they make anyone an offer so I know it won’t be soon, but it is so hard to stop thinking about it. I don’t think that I am their ideal candidate (I am not as experienced as they probably want and my timeline is not ideal and can’t be changed) but I just want to know!

    1. Clementine*

      I just try to tell myself the odds are against it, and get busy trying the next line of attack. Doing something else absorbing is your best bet to putting the uncertainty aside. That said, of course you want to know, and it’s hard.

  45. Anonny Bonnie*

    Six months ago, I hired a new employee, Pearl. She had exactly the experience we needed, she interviewed well, and she’s extremely smart and good at the technical aspects of her job. However, we began to get complaints about her that she was cold and wasn’t making our customers feel welcome enough. I own a very small business that advertises only by word of mouth, so any negative feedback puts the business in jeopardy. I had my assistant talk to Pearl about this feedback a couple of times, but we kept getting complaints, so I had Pearl record some of her Zoom meetings with clients. She seemed stressed a lot of the time, sometimes her tone was flat, and she didn’t smile enough. At her 6-month review, I put her on a PIP with a goal of being warmer and more welcoming to clients, with concrete action steps to smile more, try meditating for five minutes before meeting with clients, and put some inspirational quotes on post-its on her laptop. She seemed very shocked to be put on a PIP, and teared up, but she calmed down when I went over my notes from one of her Zoom meetings and pointed out all the ways she had made the customer feel unwelcome through her tone and body language. The PIP had an end date of a month, and I’m recording all of Pearl’s interactions with clients until then with a camera in her office. I’m reviewing them with her weekly and showing her the places where she can improve her client interactions. I feel like I was very proactive in taking care of this problem and providing her with specific ways to improve. I’ve never had to deal with this before, but I feel like I did everything right.

    Well, Pearl handed in her notice. She’s leaving in a month. I’m devastated. She has over 20 clients, and I’m not sure how I’m going to manage to reassign them; some of them want things that no one else at my company besides Pearl can do. I’m also not sure what to tell the clients. A lot of them really like her, and might be angry that they came to my business to work with someone who ended up leaving so soon. I’m afraid we’re going to lose clients because of this.

    1. MsM*

      I’m surprised you’re surprised, honestly. I think going straight to the PIP was an overreaction; there should have been at least one prior discussion where you simply expressed concern at the feedback you were getting and asked her to work on it or offered coaching resources. I also think that even a non-socially anxious person would have started shutting down and making missteps if their every move was going to be picked apart by camera.

      If Pearl was really too important for you to lose, was there no way to advocate for her with the clients that just because she’s not smiling doesn’t mean she’s not deeply committed to the work? Or shift her responsibilities to allow her to focus on the technical stuff and/or the clients who appreciate a non-nonsense approach, and let someone else handle the front line communications with the ones who need more gladhandling? It’s almost certainly too late now, but things to think about before you make your next hire.

      1. Nesprin*

        +1 You hired a technical expert, got an unspecified number of complaints from an unspecified number of clients that she wasn’t warm enough, asked your assistant to give feedback, put Pearl on a PIP without directly speaking to her about this, asked her to smile more (which is dangerous territory for claiming you’re not sexist) and put up post-it notes.

        Of course she quit.

    2. Tio*

      I mean… I’m sorry, but meditation and post it notes are silly for a PIP. Tone, smiling, and friendly language are good targets for someone doing sale/customer service, but if you wanted to work with her on that you should have scheduled some practice meetings with her, where you could redirect her in real time.,

      Here’s what your PIP looks like to me:
      I don’t think you’re friendly enough to customer (valid). To fix that, I will tell you to put up post it notes and meditate (silly, and probably didn’t help – absolutely wouldn’t have helped me. not in any way solid solutions or feedback) and I’m going to record you and then, after the fact, tell you everything you did wrong, in what is probably a very uncomfortable meeting where I nitpick you. (What other, actual proactive training did you offer her? Anything?)

      And you shouldn’t have had your assistant talk with Pearl first unless that assistant was her direct manager. This is a personal conversation, especially since it seems like it was important to you to have Pearl stay!

      Maybe Pearl was a bad fit and wouldn’t have succeeded either way, but most of the things you’ve listed here wouldn’t have helped a lot of people improve. I’m not surprised Pearl left. I wouldn’t have stuck around either.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        I think the part about fit is an important one. No one has to be wrong here TBH. You really need an employee who can be warm to employees and make them feel positively about your company. Pearl may have enough self-assessment knowledge to know she’s always going to struggle with that, and she can find other roles where it’s less important and she can use the skills she does have. You were hoping you could make her into someone who has those skills, but it’s not always possible or desirable from the employees perspective. It’s very logical for you two to part ways over this, and to be honest, it does sound like you really need someone who is good at those things! No employee is perfect, but you can hire for that next time.

      2. Keep it Simple*

        You told her to put post it notes on her computer with “inspirational quotes”? That’s kindergarten-level behavior. You could have helped identify a public speaking/public relations class she could take on company time, or set her up with a personal coach for a month or so to learn some Zoom norms. Instead, you slapped her on a PIP and spied on all her meetings, despite the fact that most of her clients liked her! Hopefully she’s gone somewhere more reasonable, and taken some of those clients with her.

        1. Rex Libris*

          This. It’s possible she just isn’t cut out to work with customers, but finding and offering some online or in-person customer service training would have been way more helpful than inspirational quotes.

    3. Annony*

      When you put someone on a PIP for not being friendly enough, it is reasonable for them to decide that the job is a bad fit. Many people with a lot of technical expertise do not necessarily have a warm and inviting way of interacting with clients and don’t necessarily want to change. It is easier to find a new job than change your personality. If you are getting complains from clients about her that were bad enough for a PIP, why would you lose clients over her leaving?

      You didn’t necessarily do anything wrong but neither did she. She doesn’t want to do what you need. If you didn’t really need her to be warmer in her interactions, then the PIP was the wrong call. But if you really do need that, Pearl leaving is a good outcome because that is not how she interacts with clients.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I mean… you basically told a woman she doesn’t smile enough and if she doesn’t look happier, she’ll be terminated. So she left. Maybe people would if given a PIP. Also not thrilled about delegating feedback to her assistant– why couldn’t that come directly from you? (If she reports to your assistant, then ok.)

      I think your approach to this was not good. Instead of giving her the feedback and working with Pearl to figure out ways to improve, you gave her instructions that might work for you without taking her style into account. Did this really need a formal PIP as opposed to feedback and discussion and check-ins? And then when she realized she couldn’t or didn’t want to “smile more”, she left. Your company wasn’t a good fit for her, which is information she took directly from you.

      To avoid this happening for you in the future, I suppose you should hire more for personality than skill. Which is fine, many of us in sales/account management were hired because we have great soft skills and we showed that the sales skills could be taught. But you focused on Pearl’s talent and skills– which are great things to focus on– and ended up making her personality a key factor in her performance. Something to ponder for the next hire.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        This is the kind of Schroedinger’s feedback that as a woman you suspect could be sexist, but really, it might not be. I’m sure OP was not sexist, and merely in uncharted territory after unprecedented complaints, but their actions definitely would have twanged my ‘is this sexist?’ alarm system. Being told to smile more would be merely be a yellow flag, but adding the inspirational quotes and meditating would make me feel I was definitely in the Village of Red Bunting. I also think don’t put someone on a PIP if you think they just need some coaching, and you’re not prepared to lose them. Interesting that there were so many complaints from some people (about things that were never a problem for other hires) yet other clients love her, and will walk without her; I’m genuinely baffled. Is there is a culture clash of some kind between the very smiley people and the low key people, or are there are two completely separate job roles being conflated, only one of which needed improvement?

          2. fhqwhgads*

            Sure, but telling a woman “smile more” is a VERY classic sexist thing to do. Which doesn’t make you sexist, since in this particular context it makes sense and was about body language and making people feel welcome and smiling is relevant to that. That does not mean just the phrase alone wouldn’t make a lot of people cringe because of it’s long and unpleasant history.

            1. Ellis Bell*

              It’s a completely understandable thing to want to say to someone when you’re coaching demeanor (I coach trainee teachers and smiles go a long way in the classroom) but if you’re saying it to another woman, you know how often it’s probably been used on them in irrelevant circumstances, and the ghosts you’re raising if you say that. It goes over a lot better if you just lay out the end result you want, make the action plan into a two way conversation and ask them what effect they personally want to achieve, what might work for them and treat them as capable of figuring it out, instead of prescribing what worked for you, (it’s understandable to mention something like meditation working for you IF they have ever expressed an interest or finding it useful, but if not, it’s simply not relevant and aims to change their mood or thinking, which will seem patronising to someone uninterested in it). I had a boss who told all her lowest performing female student teachers to wear makeup, simply because that’s what gave her the most confidence and ease in the classroom – she wasn’t wrong about it working for her, but it went down exactly as well as you’d expect, simply because they were totally uninterested, it wasn’t relevant to the job, and because of all the other people who had ever pressured them to wear makeup.

          3. Nesprin*

            I’m not saying that OP is sexist, but OP saying that they can’t be sexist because they’re female in a majority female dept is like claiming you can’t be racist since you have black friends.

            Example behaviors that should be considered skeptically: expecting a woman to show female coded behaviors like being warm instead of male coded behaviors like being technically adept.

            1. Tippy*

              Thank you! I have no idea if the OP is sexist or not but being a woman is not a defense and regardless, they are certainly engaging in sexist behavior.

          4. 7 rescue cats*

            Internalized misogyny is a thing though. Other commenters have hit on most of the other key points I would have so I won’t (… “live, laugh, love” type quotes on a post-it note?? Meditate before each call??? Really????). But just because you’re a woman who owns a company that is primarily made up of women doesn’t get you a free pass from any and all gender-based biases, FYI.

            “Meditate before each call,” OMFG. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to harp on that but like, I might have quit on the spot if I were Pearl and told your clients why without mincing words (especially the clients who who only picked the business to work with me). Not to be all “not everyone can have sandwiches!!!” but NOT EVERYONE can or wants to meditate, actually. I had some bad experiences with it in middle school (yes really) and for a while, trying to pick it up as an adult (including being pressured to do it at work events) came close to triggering a panic attack. I’ve now gotten to a point in my life where I’m like, “meditation? Yeah, that is very much NOT for me, in any capacity but thank you for your suggestion.” But I still do not enjoy it being tossed around as this “one perfect trick” to solving every mental health thing or (in your case) being an “acceptable” substitute for managing one’s report.
            I really wanted to be petty, (and this situation right here is the type that SCREAMS “be as petty as possible”), I would also pull a “hmm actually meditation goes against my personal/religious beliefs and it’s making me really uncomfortable that as my boss, you would require this as a condition of my continued employment. Especially when that wasn’t part of the original job description and has nothing to do with this company.” If you want to fight dirty, Pearl’s boss, then so will I.

            Do not even get me started on the whole “I will spy on you to judge and nitpick your client interactions AFTER the fact when it is absolutely not helpful” aspect. The more I’m thinking about it, the more I’m surprised that you’re surprised that Pearl respected herself enough to quit instead of playing along with this farce. Good for Pearl!

          5. Cottage Cheese*

            Women can absolutely be sexist. It doesn’t mean you (or other women) are inherently horrible people. It just means you live in a sexist world and haven’t yet addressed the sexism you’ve absorbed. These things take time to unlearn and unpack.

        2. Pennyworth*

          It really depends on the situation. Pearl reminds me of a cashier at our local store who was very efficient but never, ever smiled, or said anything that wasn’t absolutely necessary. It was as though her face was frozen. Somebody must have complained, because she started interacting with the people she was serving, but it was apparent she was diligently following a script and smiling on cue. I was really impressed, both with her employer for helping her solve the problem, and her, for being able to perform a role that clearly was really hard for her. I don’t think the complaint/s were sexist, because all my female friends noticed her before and after demeanor, and a couple said she should have made more of an effort to be friendly all along.

          1. Limpet*

            The test for sexism is “are people of all genders given equitable supports and held to the same standards?”.

            So for this situation, the key is whether all cashiers were being asked to smile and chat, not whether Pearl was off-putting or whether female customers appreciate the smiles.

          2. Cottage Cheese*

            Oh, that’s really sad. I feel awful for the cashier. Imagine being good at your job, but then having to put on a performance because of something so superficial. It must be exhausting. I hope she’s since found a better place to work.

            And I’ve had plenty of cashiers barely say a word to me. Never thought anything of it other than they’d had a long day.

    5. Pretty Pumpkin*

      I think it’s reasonable to expect Pearl to communicate in a warmer way to clients and work with her on that. However, if I were in her shoes I might have felt patronized, especially by inspirational quotes on my laptop and having all of my client interactions recorded would make me feel more nervous. I wonder if role-playing client interactions with Pearl would have been more effective?

      1. MsM*

        Role-playing, scripts, flowcharts, talking points, Toastmasters, just talking through what she considers a positive client interaction and encouraging her to channel that into her physical presentation more…there are so, so many other options that could have been explored here that might have been more effective for Pearl’s style of learning.

    6. Nonprofit ED*

      I agree with all the comments. This was a confusing situation. First you say Pearl made customers feel unwelcome and then you say a lot of the clients like her. I would have resigned as well.

    7. CommanderBanana*

      You really can’t be surprised if someone leaves after being put on a PIP. PIPs are pretty generally accepted as being the first step towards firing someone, especially if it’s not specific metrics and more subjective stuff, like “being warmer.” I absolutely would not stay at a workplace after I had been put on a PIP. I’m also having trouble understanding how her clients “really liked her” but you get kept complaints about her?

      Either way, managers should know that PIPs are a pretty nuclear option. We just put someone on a (deserved) PIP at my workplace and he quit without notice a day later. We knew that would be likely to happen.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        I’ve always heard that if you are put on a PIP your performance improvement at work is secondary focus, you should be focusing on finding a new job first. Like PIPs are just a way of firing you without the company being sued.

        1. CommanderBanana*

          That’s my understanding and that’s how I’ve seen them play out in the real world. I’m sure there some organization out there that uses PIPs for what they’re ostensibly for – as performance improvement plans (just as I’m sure that somewhere out there is an HR professional who is good at their job, I just have yet to meet one) – but every place I’ve ever worked for and every person I’ve ever known that’s been PIPPed has either then quit or been fired. Especially if the PIP is not about measurable metrics, like showing up on time or making X number of widgets, but is about something subjective, like “being nicer.”

          1. Annony*

            Even when a PIP is being used with the goal of actual improvement, it is still very clearly telling the employee “You are not doing a good job.” If I hear that I am not doing a good job, I am going to start looking for something that is a better fit. Why stay somewhere you are seriously underperforming after less than a year?

    8. Person from the Resume*

      This …
      A lot of them really like her, and might be angry that they came to my business to work with someone who ended up leaving so soon

      does align with this …
      complaints about her that she was cold and wasn’t making our customers feel welcome enough.

      If someone is on a PIP, they are close to being fired. If they do not think they can meet the PIP goals, they should start looking for a new job. Her leaving was a potential outcome of the PIP.

      Too late now, but in retrospect what should you have done? I think you need to figure out if what you should have done first us reassign the clients who wanted more warmth to other employees and let Pearl continue to manage the ones who really like her and came to your business for her.

    9. Busy Middle Manager*

      I am surprised you’d film meetings (that is out of line IMO), but did you actually go back and watch them and did you learn anything? Also motivation quotes are weird to use. Maybe she just has a different frame of mind. I know people here think personality types are bogus, but for reference, I got INTJ the three times I took it. I’ve presented at a few big customers at my last two jobs and most big institutions seem to like the dry no-small-talk but obsessive data-driven presentations that think outside of the box (sorry for all of the cliches:-/).

      What I am building up to is: very likely that Pearl worked with clients like that in the past and thought she was doing great.

      I mean, if someone is dealing with vendors (like you), they are in a decision making position with a budget, so might prefer the Pearl approach. Not smiles and talking about tv shows or whatever

      1. Bast*

        I am also an INTJ. While I do try to be “Business Friendly” I would not exactly consider myself warm and fuzzy. I will, however, get you results. There are many attorneys who I’ve seen who are world class BS’ers that spend a lot of time joking and laughing with clients, and are able to build buddy-buddy rapport, but are an absolute joke in court, are unorganized and always missing deadlines, etc. I’m obviously not stating that someone can’t be outgoing and friendly and be organized, competent, etc., only that in my particular field going for personality alone can really, REALLY screw you over.

        If Pearl’s position was straight sales, I get it. True, some people like a more technical approach — if selling a product, they want to know what truly makes it better than the competition without all of the frilly dancing around the point and anecdotes about your brother’s wife’s cousin who bought the product and is changed FOREVER because of it, but there are many others who are captivated by a gregarious nature and charm. I’d say being a chameleon who is able to adapt to all types would be best in that scenario.

    10. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Asking me to meditate and put affirmations on my cube wall would really upset me. Surely there are some more concrete things you could have done – do some practice sessions and roleplaying, for exactly.

    11. Alex*

      It sounds like she wasn’t a fit for the job! If being warm and smiling a lot was a requirement, which it was if you put her on a PIP for not doing, then she probably thought “oh, wow, this isn’t for me.”

      I mean, I would have the same reaction if my employer told me to smile more. That would be an environment I wouldn’t want to work in, and while you have every right to ask that of your employees, if you do, especially alongside a PIP, it’s akin to “change your personality or you’re fired” which feels like a huge lift for most people and would be a constant struggle and source of stress.

      But the fact that she had lots of happy clients maybe is a clue that the smiling/warm/bubbly personality you are looking for isn’t as important as you were making it out to be. (And it also might be worth thinking about if you would have made the same ask of a man. Maybe you would have, but it is worth reflecting on.)

    12. I should really pick a name*

      I went over my notes from one of her Zoom meetings and pointed out all the ways she had made the customer feel unwelcome through her tone and body language.

      This really should have happened before a PIP was even considered.

    13. Decidedly Me*

      If I was given a PIP instructing me to meditate and put up inspirational quotes, I would have quit, too. Those are really patronizing and for me personally, would have had the opposite effect you were going for.

      If Pearl was getting poor feedback, that is a conversation you should have had with her directly rather than having your assistant do it. It was a great opportunity to brainstorm with Pearl on what might be causing the feedback, get her thoughts on how to improve, etc.

      If that first part happened, it may not have gotten to the Zoom recordings, but assuming it had, again, this was an opportunity to brainstorm together on improving. I would not have gone to a PIP at this point. The exact issues were just identified, so I would have given Pearl time to implement corrections at this point.

    14. Strive to Excel*

      The idea of having to watch my own body language on a recorded Zoom meeting *on a weekly business* would be enough to make me quit on the spot. The concrete steps you’ve listed are silly – smile more isn’t unreasonable, but meditation? Motivational quotes? Those might help you, but aren’t universally helpful.

      And – if she has 20 critical clients, where was all of this negative feedback coming from? If they really like her but were also complaining, that sounds like a them problem. “My technical expert doesn’t smile enough” = who cares if they can fix your problem. “Not being welcoming” is not a problem. Harassing language in emails, an attitude of disdain, or refusing to help customers is a problem.

    15. Job Requirements*

      Wow. Was smiley and bubbly part of the job description in the job ad? Because that’s not normal even for 100% customer facing jobs.

      Friendly and professional. Competent and able to address unexpected questions/topics. Able to think on their feet. These do not require huge smiles and a bubbly personality.

      And going right to a PIP? wow. I’d have been out of there too.

    16. Sneaky Squirrel*

      It sounds like Pearl wasn’t a good fit for her role, but it also sounds like Pearl wasn’t set up for success. Feedback about someone’s performance should be directly given with an opportunity for the employee to discuss; when you have your assistant address Pearl, you’re signaling to Pearl that this issue is beneath you and that you’re not open to a dialogue.

      I think if I received a PIP that instructed me to meditate, smile more, and put up inspirational quotes, I would leave too. Those aren’t concrete steps to making someone a warmer person. A custom solution developed with Pearl’s input may have made more of an impact; maybe that was coaching or one-on-one practice. Perhaps if you worked with her on how to address her stressors, she wouldn’t appear as stressed in meetings. It’s also likely Pearl felt even more self conscious about the PIP and that she was being recorded so that her appearance could be scrutinized.

    17. 5oclock*

      INFP here. If I had my every move, tone and facial expression graded – I’d be out of there too. That’s simply horrifying! Perhaps in this day and age, where so many feel comfortable on video, you may not feel that this is excessive and intrusive, but I think it’s demeaning and demoralizing to review and pick apart how someone comes across when meeting with clients.

      I WFH now and DH will offer unsolicited feedback on my tone during phone calls and meetings. Depending on my stress level, some days I’m more upbeat and on others I’m a more no frills conversationalist. I happen to be AuDHD and have made it clear to him that his grading of my interactions is uncalled for.

      I think you lost a potentially great asset to your business by pushing too hard for this employee to present a certain unnatural, relentlessly pleasant demeanor when interacting with clients.

    18. juliebulie*

      put some inspirational quotes on post-its on her laptop

      Nope. That and the meditation were overreaches in my opinion.

      1. juliebulie*

        …and if I’d read through all the other replies first, I’d know that had already been covered. Didn’t mean to pile on.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Didn’t read to me like piling on.

          Think of it as another vote for what the readers think should/should not have happened. That is why OP wrote in.

          Speaking generally, sometimes a person needs to hear something more than once for it to sink in. Or hearing it from from multiple sources emphasizes the point.

    19. Mad Harry Crewe*

      The actions that you took (aggressive and condescending feedback) were at odds with the outcome that you wanted (for Pearl to have a personality transplant and continue her employment with you).

      First, the personality transplant was always unrealistic. If a specific demeanor or personality is really important for this role, you need to select based on that.

      Second, if you wanted her to stay and thought her work was overall good, then you fumbled this very badly, as others have pointed out.

      Third, if she was doing such a poor job that you needed the formal structure of a performance improvement plan, then why did you want her to stay?

      You offered her a choice – Behave in this way and you can keep this job, OR, find a new job. She took you up on it: she found a new job.

    20. Kay*

      I would expect any decent employee to immediately start looking for a new job if they received a PIP telling them to meditate, to put inspirational post it notes on their laptop or to smile more – regardless of whether anything in the PIP was reasonable – because that is absolutely wild and screams of bad management and possible other workplace issues. Due to this alone I suspect there aren’t any good answers to the many questions I have.

      -Was Pearl made aware that Zoom meetings with good customer service was a major part of the job?
      -Why weren’t you the one to talk to Pearl about the complaints? Given that you were the one to administer the PIP I can’t see the admin being her boss.
      -Why wasn’t this issue approached collaboratively first, with resources, training and input from Pearl provided?
      -Why wasn’t Pearl made aware prior to the PIP that if her behavior didn’t change that a PIP would be the next step?
      -Was there no customer relation interference attempted, or alternate solutions looked at as an option? You say some clients love Pearl and you can’t afford to lose her, but you chose to put her on what I would call a poorly executed PIP, why? Could you not have managed client expectations, shifted clients, tried in person meetings (you say Pearl interviewed well so surely she has some skills), have Pearl focus on the technical aspect, done coaching, have the meetings be done with 2 employees? There seems to be a host of options if Pearl was that important to the business.

      1. Anonny Bonnie*

        Pearl knew the job would involve direct customer interaction; she has 10 years of experience in this specific job so I assume she knew what it would entail. And since everyone keeps asking about my assistant, I delegate a lot of things to my assistant because I’m very busy and don’t have time to deal with them. And my assistant was the one who took the calls from the clients, so she could explain what the clients had said better than I could, since I didn’t talk to them.

        1. Might Be Spam*

          Are the clients who complained, separate from the ones who might leave or is there overlap? Are the clients frustrated by other things that she has no control over? Could they be projecting their frustration onto her just to have an outlet? I had that happen to me once. A project leader was mad at a situation and complained about me. He later admitted that he did it to let out some anger and feel better.

        2. MsM*

          Wait, wait, wait. You put Pearl on a PIP without ever communicating directly with the clients about this yourself? Maybe if you’d put a little more effort into ascertaining whether these actually were “fix this or we’re going to take our business elsewhere”-level complaints or your assistant blowing a few offhand comments out of proportion, you’d at minimum have a better idea of how her departure is going to go over, and possibly have avoided having to interrupt your busy schedule to hire someone new.

        3. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I’m afraid that’s not going to fly in the future. Your assistant is not Pearl’s manager. All feedback on performance needs to come from a manager– in this case, it’s you. Your assistant can absolutely report back to you what the clients said, but it is your job to frame it to your direct report as constructive feedback.

          It sounds like Pearl definitely did know what the job entailed– in terms of tasks and responsibilities. And she was doing her job. What she apparently did not realize is that your vision of customer service is different from hers. I’m not saying she should be able to be surly in front of clients, but it sounds like she wasn’t surly, just that her approach is not warm and fuzzy. In many places that’s ok as long as things get done and she’s not actively scaring people away. There are always going to be bad client/vendor matches, that happens all the time. I might click with one client and totally stumble with another, it’s just business and life. But I would expect my boss to work with me on how to remedy the stumbling, and I don’t mean by telling me I should meditate.

          Giving a client-facing person feedback is a very good thing. What is not a very good thing is going straight to a PIP. And, I would argue, making it more about, “You should do these things” than about, “What can we do to fix this?” and “What can I do to help?” If you wanted to keep her, you should have presented her with the feedback and let her respond, then figure out a way to do things differently. Especially since she has experience and she’s good at her job.

        4. Massive Dynamic*

          Does your assistant like Pearl? Because that’s a really easy way to sabotage her if not. (Ungenerous read, I know – my mind goes to dark places sometimes.) But also if you ever hear of feedback like this again, please for goodness sake, call the clients directly to chat about it before passing any feedback on to your employee.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            No, I went the same place. Absolutely wild to me that OP would act on second-hand feedback without getting any direct insight or talking to the customers who were reported to be unhappy.

        6. Decidedly Me*

          Managers delegate all sorts of things (and they should), but actually managing direct reports should never be delegated. When complaints come in about my reports, I personally reach out to a client in order to understand what happened and then research the situation in more detail.

        7. Kay*

          I’m really concerned that out of all of the things raised the standout is – I expected to Pearl to know what I wanted and I didn’t want to have with managing this situation. Many of the points raised, which could have been done earlier and saved you from being in this situation, are things that will have to be addressed now, only with added consequences.

        8. allathian*

          If you’re a manager, you prioritize the tasks you need to do to manage effectively. In this case, you shouldn’t have relied on your assistant’s word about the client feedback, but called them yourself to confirm. For all you know, the assistant could’ve made up fake feedback to get rid of Pearl for whatever reason.

          You were heavy-handed here with the PIP and frankly, you deserve to lose the clients who were happy with Pearl’s expertise and demeanor. Pearl’s presumably been successful at her job elsewhere before and will be again.

          Also, the idea that women can’t be sexist is patently false.

          I’m glad Pearl left and I wish her all the success.

        9. 5 to 7 feral cats*

          Okay so to quote the Bobs…what is it exactly that you do [at your business]? If you’re delegating everything to someone else?

        10. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Is your assistant qualified in HR or management? If not, this was an improper move. I could see a conversation w all 3 of you for the reasons you gave.

          This issue was enough to get Pearl put on a PIP, yet you were “very busy and don’t have time to deal with” what led up to it?

          I’ve worked at more than one family-owned company that didn’t have proper HR, and the owner dumped everything onto their assistant because they were too cheap to get qualified staffing or they didn’t know any better. Delegating to the assistant something that they may not have been qualified to do, such as HR matters, is a recipe for failure if not lawsuit fodder. On top of everything else, if I were Pearl I’d absolutely feel that my employee confidentiality about my work performance was being violated.

          And by the way, was the assistant being paid to do HR?

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            oops, sorry, this was meant to be upthread.

            darn technology. where’s pearl? can she fix this?

        11. Spencer Hastings*

          “she has 10 years of experience in this specific job so I assume she knew what it would entail”

          So, was she abjectly terrible at her job for all those years at her previous employer(s)? Or was there some huge difference in culture between your company and the places she worked before?

          I could see there being a difference between, say, preparing tax returns for companies in industry A vs. industry B (maybe Industry B clients ask more questions, and someone’s demeanor might make clients think questions aren’t welcome).

          But if that were the case, I’d expect there to be a conversation like “here’s what the culture is here, our clients tend to have such-and-such types of attitudes and characteristics compared to what you may have seen elsewhere”…not jumping to “your behavior is objectively wrong, correct it or you’re fired.”

    21. sigh*

      Wait. You kept getting complaints ? From whom ?? Was it from your staff or the clients ? And how is the ratio of clients who complain to those who love her ?

      If most loved her and you put her on a PIP because of a few squeaky wheels, well… no surprise there. But if there truly were issues, you should be relieved, not stressed.

    22. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      You shot yourself in the foot:
      Anyone with any sense and options, who has been put on a PIP, is going to job hunt. She sounds an otherwise very valuable employee who just needed gentle, tactful coaching, not a PIP.

      In future, don’t put anyone on a PIP if their issues are not sufficient for you to want to fire them. Especially not someone you really can’t afford to lose.

    23. Parakeet*

      I genuinely am not sure here whether this is real, or Pearl pretending to be her manager as a way of venting frustration about her manager’s behavior. I’ve been the Pearl. Right down to the part of having a lot of clients, skills that nobody else had, and clients who mostly liked me but a few who complained about my tone being too flat (I am autistic). It’s incredibly demoralizing. I was luckier than Pearl, in that after some internal deliberation, and some self-advocacy on my part, the people above me decided not to put me on a PIP, and I was able to figure out how to use my masking mechanisms.

      If my boss had told me to meditate and put inspirational quote post-its on my laptop, only fear of unemployment would have kept me from giving notice on the spot.

      You made it clear that you weren’t happy with her work. You put her on a PIP! In most places, a PIP means “you need to start job-searching.” If you felt that her work was of so much value to you that it’s devastating to lose her, why did you put her on a PIP? “A lot of them really like her…” But you put her on a PIP ostensibly because clients didn’t like her. If some of them are angry because she left, that’s the tradeoff you decided to make by being demeaning (the cutesy-poo inspo stuff) and driving her out because of others of them who complained about her.

      1. Padge*

        I also suspected that the person were really hearing from here is “Pearl” and that some of these details may have been, um, enhanced for emphasis.

    24. HBJ*

      Pearl literally did what Alison advises on this site. I understand that it can be somewhat upsetting if you were hoping she would improve, but if you read AAM, this shouldn’t be shocking or “devastating” that she started job searching and found a new job.

      “It’s smart to be job searching [while on a PIP] – https://www.askamanager.org/2013/05/what-to-do-when-youre-put-on-a-performance-improvement-plan.html

      “none of this is to say that you shouldn’t be job-searching if you’re placed on a PIP — you absolutely should be” – https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/if-you-think-a-pip-always-ends-in-firing-you-are-wrong.html

    25. Glazed Donut*

      You’ve got a lot of good responses here to consider the next time you have difficulties with someone’s performance at work. You can’t change the past, so now it’s time to learn for next time.
      Sure, Pearl may have decided to leave because it’s a bad fit for her personality. For me? If my boss told me to do these things, I’d want to leave because of the poor fit AND because I’d realize my boss isn’t a good manager (“This is her idea of helping Yikes! I’m out.”). There’s no real measurement in this PIP (how do you measure increased warmth? More smiles per minute? Fewer complaints?) and the so-called improvement actions aren’t grounded in any professional reality. Maybe you don’t have the budget to send Pearl to classes, but what about modeling interactions – having her watch you for specific things? Watching someone else who excels and setting up a mentorship? What about LinkedIn learning, or other online offerings?
      I also hope that this lack-of-warmth isn’t caused by an outside factor (family issues, health problems, etc) because then you may realllyyyy regret passing up a 1:1 to discuss before the PIP.

    26. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      sorry, what????? you had your assistant talk to pearl? that was your job.

      i’ve worked for a number of small family-owned businesses and seen a lot of HR-type screw-ups, so i’m not surprised to read about another one.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        sorry again, technology is out to get me today.

        this was also meant to be higher up the thread.

    27. HD*

      A PIP is the last step before firing someone and sometimes just a formality before firing. It’s not an actual performance improvement tool. If you do this to another employee they will also assume they’re about to be fired and will likely also quit.

  46. SubjectAvoacdo*

    I’m interested in hearing from anyone in supply chain/logistics work. My partner is a civil engineer working in structures, but is really interested in switching to supply chain. My thought is that an engineering background is desirable in a lot of fields that aren’t engineering, so he could maybe make the change into supply chain without any additional formal education. However, he is convinced that making this kind of career change would require another master’s degree, which is risky since he is in the country on a visa and going back to school would require a change in status. Does anyone have any insight on going from engineering to another industry, particularly supply chain?

    1. Tio*

      I’m a customs broker who has work in supply chain logistics for over a decade before moving t the supply chain division of a major retailer. Almost no one I know in supply chain logistics has a masters in it, including my directors here.

      That said, an engineering degree won’t give him any edge, but you don’t really need one depending on what kind of supply chain work you’re going for. He may have to start at entry level, but if he has never worked in supply chain, even with a masters degree they’re probably not going to jump him to a higher level. So what exactly does he want? Is it to skip entry level? That will be hard for a career change. Is it just to get in? That could be really easy, but just FYI, supply chain tends to be a very bad work/life balance type of job, as the mindset is very “GET EVERYTHING THERE NOW” and a lot of people end up working some hours during nights or weekends.

      So what is it exactly about supply chain logistics that he finds appealing? If he can answer that, I can try and give more specific advice.

    2. Generic Name*

      I suggest he pivot to estimating before jumping to logistics. A lot of the estimators at my company have engineering backgrounds, so it’s not that big of a leap.

    3. Daphne*

      Engineering has supply chains, too.

      You don’t say what kind of civil engineer he is. If he has always been, say, a bridge designer, he will not be just hired to do supply chain. The skill set is too different. His best bet is to express interest in getting into the supply chain aspects of his current work and gain experience that way.

  47. Grinchy boss*

    One of my employees came in very excited for Christmas, and made some comments about it in a staff meeting inviting folks to participate in a Christmas event that they are very excited about. While generally innocuous (they’re just REALLY excited), we have some staff members who were in that meeting who are not Christian (including me, although I am not bothered by this kind of thing). The boss of one of the non-Christian staff members took me aside after the meeting to let me know that they are working on making the holidays feel more inclusive for everyone – which is awesome to hear! – because of a string of complaints from last year, and asked for a hiatus on the Christmas talk for now. When I spoke to my staff member, they got very sulky and have been giving me one-word answers since. Should I do anything further at this point, or just let it go since it’s Friday afternoon and see how they are next week?

    1. Grinchy boss*

      PS. Yes, I know it’s mid-October, it caught me off guard too that there is Christmas talk this early!

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I imagine that tickets are going on sale about now for things like Transsiberian Orchestra or your local ballet doing The Nutcracker.

          1. HannahS*

            Oooh…yeah I wouldn’t love being invited to a Christmas event at someone’s church during a work meeting. Definitely a good call on letting her know that’s not particularly inclusive.

            1. WantonSeedStitch*

              Yeah, I wouldn’t really want to be invited to ANY religiously-themed event at someone’s church unless they were a close connection of mine and knew it was something I would personally, as a non-Christian person, enjoy. If you don’t know me well enough to know I’m not Christian and have an idea of what might make me uncomfortable, please don’t invite me to anything religious.

    2. Nicosloanica*

      What exactly did you say to the employee? To be fair she may just be unreasonable (it certainly sounds that way), but I’d feel that moreso if you said “we really want to promote a diverse company here and part of that is focusing on planning an inclusive holiday event, here is how you can be a part of that” or did you say “you can’t talk about christmas ever again.” While totally within bounds for a workplace, knowing this is something she’s enthusiastic about, the latter wasn’t going to go over well. If she keeps being sulky, I think you can call that out calmly and directly and tell her the attitude you need from her role. Always focus on the behavior you want, not what you don’t want.

      1. Grinchy boss*

        I asked them to please hold off on Christmas-specific talk for now, as we are planning holiday festivities that are inclusive of both our Christian and non-Christian colleagues later in the year.

        1. Hendry*

          What does one employee talking about Christmas have to do with other holiday events though? I can see not using a team meeting to invite people to a church activity, but banning talk of Christmas in general? That’s weird imo

    3. Tio*

      So, wait… there’s a meeting announcing the Christmas event, and at the meeting, the member made positive comments about it? And the boss wanted a hiatus on Christmas talk, because this member… was enthusiastic at the meeting where they talked about a Christmas event?

      This is ridiculous.

      If the boss wants better inclusivity, then the better option would be 1. to NOT have a “Christmas” event and 2. To add more things in the meeting celebrating non-Christian holidays, not get mad at an employee for being excited about their holiday.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I think you misread the statement, or maybe there’s a missing comma. There was a staff meeting, and the person brought up the Christmas thing. Not “there was a staff meeting about Christmas and the person brought up a Christmas thing”

            1. Tio*

              ok, yeah, that’s much less ridiculous.

              I still think it’s a little over the top to tell someone they can’t talk about something like that, but depending on how much they were saying, I guess I could kind of see it.

              1. Anecdata*

                Yeah, I’m landing on this side. If it was a meeting/context where it would be unusual to mention a personal event, address that; or if the person was pressuring people, demanding an answer as to why not, “but everyone loves Christmas!”-ing, address that. But an individual inviting people at work to a non work event – even a religious one – isn’t inherently a problem, and seems like overstepping to try to prevent.

        2. Clisby*

          “One of my employees came in very excited for Christmas, and made some comments about it in a staff meeting inviting folks to participate in a Christmas event that they are very excited about.”

          I also read this to mean there was a staff meeting inviting folks to participate in a Christmas event. That’s literally what it says.

          “One of my employees came in very excited for Christmas, and made some comments about it in a staff meeting, inviting folks to participate in a Christmas event that they are very excited about.” – means something completely different.

      2. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        My reading is that the Christmas event was not a company event but something external that the employee was encouraging people to attend.

    4. Antilles*

      Since the weekend is coming up anyways, I would definitely lean towards letting it go for now. There’s a good chance that some cooling off time will just resolve the situation on its’ own.
      If it persists next week, then I would ask about the quietness and sulkiness in a “noticed you’ve seen a little off, what’s up?” manner without even directly mentioning the Christmas. There’s a decent chance that’ll straighten her up, without needing to revisit the holiday talk. But if she’s extremely annoyed about Christmas, then she’ll mention it, and at that point, it would be appropriate to have a bigger discussion how not everybody celebrates, the company would prefer to keep it equal, etc.

      1. Grinchy boss*

        Thank you! I am leaning towards this approach, unless something comes up that affects work today.

    5. spcepickle*

      I agree about letting it go because it is Friday afternoon.
      That said I would keep a close eye on this. I also have a wonderfully diverse staff with a large percentage not celebrating Christmas and if one of my team was inviting people to an event at their church (or mosque or synagogue or temple) that would be a hard no.
      There is a line between being a whole person at work and sharing some details of your life and being obnoxious. Sounds like your person is on the wrong side of that line and needs some help to see it.

    6. HonorBox*

      I think what you said is totally fine. It may have yucked their yumm a bit, but you’re not expected to manage their feelings. If Monday comes along and they’re still sulking, it might be worth an additional conversation about being more inclusive AND not putting people in an uncomfortable spot by inviting them to a church event.

    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      You posted later that the meeting was about a work project, not holiday event planning. So she was totally inappropriate to bring up her church Christmas event in this meeting and disrespectful to those of other religions or none.

      If you told her not to bring up Christmas or church in business meetings – and explained about the push for inclusivity – that was absolutely the correct coaching and part of your job as her manager. She can invite colleagues – once – during normal chitchat, but should not become a pain about it.

      She needs to stop sulking, but I’d let it go unless she continues on Monday, in which case she needs to be firmly told to knock it off and be professional.

  48. Rheanna*

    Advice on relocating/finding a job

    I’m trying to move from my hometown to where my friend group lives but I’m having no luck with the job search. I’m wondering if it’s because my address is so far away/that companies think I don’t want to relocate.

    Any advice on how to job search while moving specifically?

    1. sagegreen*

      How far away is it? Can you put as your address one of your friends’? Then see if you get more interviews.

      1. MsM*

        Or ask one of your friends if you can use theirs as your “local address.” You might also mention in your cover letter that your planned move is one of the reasons you’re looking, and if you can travel to interview in person, make it clear you’re happy to do so.

        1. Spacewoman Spiff*

          This is what I was thinking. When I was doing a long-distance job search, I didn’t start getting any responses until I had lined up my new apartment and was able to change the address on my applications. I was always upfront on my cover letters about my current location and timeline for moving back, willingness to travel in for interviews, exactly what MsM suggested.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      If all of your work experience is in your current location, removing your address won’t hide that. Try stating in your cover letter that you are planning to move to X City in the next few weeks.

    4. Filosofickle*

      I started getting long distance interviews when I got much more concrete about my plans in my cover letters:
      – Use language like I will be or am moving vs. I want to move. Everything you write should sound definitive, this is happening and not a fantasy.
      – Give a timeline to show that hiring you won’t push a start date out too far: I am committed to moving as soon as possible, and can start work within 2-3 weeks of an offer. (Even better: I will be moving as of X date, but most people need to get a job before moving.)
      – State a reason for the move to build their confidence that you will follow through AND stay: I am moving to be closer to friends and family. (Even if only the friends part is true, they are chosen family after all. It’s okay to fudge.).
      – One thing that worked well for me was giving specific dates/weeks I’d be in town for interviews, but that may not be relevant depending on your field and how they do interviews today
      – Or, ignore all of the above, use your friend’s address and pretend you live there. With longer distances this doesn’t work, but if you can get be onsite for an interview on short notice and can move very fast then they don’t need to know.

  49. Frog*

    Question (sorry if this has been asked recently) How can you update your knowledge of Microsoft programs in a way that you can use to highlight the knowledge on a resume. I use Word and Excel frequently but not in ways that are verified by my employment history. I’d also like to be more familiar with other office programs but the Microsoft ones seem to be often requested in job listings.

    Is it necessary to go to community college classes? Online learning academies? Microsoft certification? I’ve done research online but it isn’t clear if any of the free resources are going to be useful for anything more then personal achievement.

    Currently, what are people recommending for updating skills in Microsoft (or Quickbooks or other common programs)?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Just dump it in your skills section as Microsoft office . It’s considered pretty standard assumption that you know how to use it for most office jobs.

      If you are not feeling confident in your Microsoft skills check out your local library, they often have computer classes that are very low cost or free. At the very least they can point you to resources and have free computers to practice on.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      There’s official Microsoft certification exams; they aren’t hideously expensive, though there is a fee to take them.

    3. spcepickle*

      Whenever I see Word mentioned in a skill section of a resume I gently roll my eyes. If you can’t do basic word formatting I am concerned. Anything more means you are most likely using a different specialized software.

      As for excel – There are levels, are you doing basic office tasks like keeping track of lists, maybe some charts, simple formatting – this is also an assumed level of competency for today’s work place and does not need to be on your resume.

      Are you an accountant doing crazy manipulation or building your own macros? That can be featured on your resume and maybe even a line about what problems you solved with excel in your cover letter. I would focus on how you use the software – Converted a hand typed listed into an automated spreadsheet used by everyone in my office. Or whatever instead of trying to show you have a certification.

      I am an engineering – so our big software skill is computer drafting. I always highlight what have done with the software in my resume. Designed 7 miles of new profile roadway using Microstation’s Roadway Designer. Layout out 200 new curb ramps with AutoCAD 3D.

      If you want to have a software skills section of your resume and list the software you are confidant with that is cool, but I would make it industry specific and leave all word, excel, and power point off it.

  50. Name name name*

    For future job searching, how bad or not bad would it look to go from managing project managers of small to mid size projects, to a project manager of much larger projects? Context is government and building construction. I think there’s valuable and interesting experience to be had with the much bigger projects but don’t want to be stuck doing that forever. Or stuck managing PMs on small projects forever.

    1. Antilles*

      I’m in a construction-related industry myself and I can assure that you it’s not a deal at all. Zip, zero, zilch. That’s extremely normal career progression where you start by handling small projects before moving up to handle higher profile/higher value projects.
      The key though is think through the steps you’d take to translate the lessons you learned managing a $100,000 job and how you’d apply them to a $10m job. And vice versa if in the future you decide to return back to handling more smaller, quick-turnaround jobs. Because while the skills are certainly transferrable, that’s also a normal question for hiring managers to ask and make sure you’ve thought through.

      1. Generic Name*

        Agreed with all of this. I suggest adding up the total dollar value for all the projects you are managing as well. I was working on 20 projects at my last company, and am now working on like 6 at my current company. But I’m responsible for a much higher budget (I just signed a $200,000 change order for a consultant, which is twice the contract value of my biggest project at my last job).

    2. Seven times*

      I’m in this world. I think most people see managing a single large job as a bigger role than managing a number of people over smaller jobs. For example, someone may run a small GC locally (with several PMs under them) and move to a single large government job (like working for the gov’t as a PM) and no one thinks they took a step down.

      Do be aware that these large jobs have way more red tape. Project controls and processes carry much more weight.

    3. Stuart Foote*

      In my experience, managing the big projects is much better career-wise than small projects. I went from managing small projects (and was a reasonably big player in my department, though not management) to being a lower level PM for big projects, but the pay bump was significant. It also opened WAY more doors for further career progression a short time later.

      The skills are definitely transferrable, but it was not the easiest to persuade hiring managers of that. I had a number of first interviews that went well but the hiring manager clearly wanted someone with large project experience.

    4. Generic Name*

      I went from being the PM on dinky unimportant projects at a dinky unimportant company to overseeing a small slice of multi-billion dollar projects of national importance at a very large company. It’s definitely a step up and I got a huge pay raise. At my old job, I never had recruiters reach out to me, and at my new job, I get contacted all the time. It’s definitely a step up.

    5. Name name name*

      Thanks for all these, it’s really helpful. Now I manage about 8 project managers during design who have from about $5m – $60m of projects each. If I stay here, I will likely be shifting to a role working on our procedures and standards, then maybe managing the same number of PMs working on smaller projects as we wind down the funding. Or I have a job offer as a PM for supposedly bigger, more interesting projects. Both are government, but not the same government.

      So am worried to have a job history of PM->manager->PM. But you are reassuring me.

  51. Margaret Cavendish*

    I would like to lodge a complaint. I’m required to be in the office today because of our hybrid work policy – the problem is that my home office has cats, and my downtown office does not. And I don’t think I should be expected to work under such conditions! Who should I speak to about this monumentally unfair labour practice???

    1. CommanderBanana*

      My dog would also like to lodge a complaint that her Merm, also known as the Noms-Giver and Warm-Lap-Haver, is cruelly forced to go into the office instead of working from the couch where she can dispense snuggles and a constant stream of snackies, and my poor pup is consigned to a day of loneliness* and starvation**.

      *she has a second mom who is home full-time
      **she is chunky

      1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

        My sister’s dog has the same complaint today and thinks there is enough here for a class-action lawsuit.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Alannah is signing on; her mama went out in the garage and got lost ALL DAY instead of being home working like she was asposta, and poor Alannah was stuck supervising Misser Beardy Face Man and them annoying kittens all day.

        2. Anonosaurus*

          Miss Fluffy is in. She has a secondary cause of action because although mom was out hunting all day rather than petting kitty, she failed to bring home any food. Miss Fluffy alleges a breach of her feline rights and wants immediate injunctive relief pending consideration by the Ninth Circuit.

    3. Percy Weasley*

      The Tiny Tyrant has dictated a letter to the governor of our state (mandator of my in-office days) to express her displeasure at missing out on two days of online meetings each week. She loves an online meeting and sometimes objects loudly if I “forget”and shut her out of my office.

  52. usuallylurking*

    Had my job eliminated last week… I had really liked the job and had no plans on leaving anytime soon. It was the first place in my career as a designer that I felt like my work and expertise was valued, and where I felt safe to speak up if I had other ideas or disagreed with direction. I’m really sad about it (and honestly pretty scared financially because the market is currently pretty dry).

    I don’t really have anything to add here… just wanted to get my thoughts out.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      That really sucks, I am so sorry. The job market feels totally schizophrenic right now. I’m in a totally different industry so have no advice to offer than solidarity. If you job is being eliminated, I hope you get severance, and maybe you can negotiate some assistance from your workplace, like getting references up-front or a referral to a headhunter?

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Sorry for that, I know it hurts especially bad now because there are constant articles and commentators on tv talking about how great the economy and job market are. I read the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) reports and there was a big jump in restaurant and hospitality jobs last month. So even if you believe the numbers are final/won’t be adjusted, the jobs being created are all low pay. Also there was a reduction in average hour worked last month. Magically, the media forgets all of these things and just highlighted 254K total jobs created.

      It’s maddening not even being able to find jobs to apply to, then constantly being barraged with that! You are not alone

  53. iheartcardigans*

    Hi all, looking for suggestions for framing feedback in performance review meetings – specifically when someone has “meets the mark” of performance goals but is creating friction and challenges along the way. 

    Background: I have a small team of 4 staff doing highly visible work with multiple stakeholders. Our work often requires several rounds of problem-solving to get it into manageable forms, so close consultation across our team is valuable and improves our outcomes. One team member “Pat” has been in role about 6 months after doing related work in organization. Generally Pat’s work is getting done from fine to great in quality. I think they mean well and want to show initiative and be seen as a leader.

    There were some incidents of disagreement with their previous management, which was attributed to personality conflict. But … you guessed it: 6 months on, I see many similar patterns in Pat’s behavior & communication within my team and with me. I’ve also gotten feedback from other managers that Pat oversteps, “directing” staff on other teams or inserting opinions on other teams process, resulting in Pat being uninvited from meetings with those teams. 

    I’ve addressed all of these issues below already in individual conversations. I’ve also adjusted how and which details I provide when I assign work – to be much more specific in requests and thoughtful with feedback.

    However, I think I still have at least three issues to address, which are about receiving feedback and undertaking work:  
    – When I provide feedback, Pat becomes argumentative, defensive, or passive aggressive in meetings (example: “correcting me” on details or timelines right after I provide feedback). Pat has started framing my feedback as “what I want them to do” instead of our typical iterative feedback process.  
    – Pat has great initiative but often undertakes additional work at the expense of assignments, becomes attached to that work and tries to have it inserted into ongoing workflows, and lacks awareness of the ways that work might impact other colleagues (example: redesigning a workflow that improves our team’s work but has downstream effects from other staff in org)
    – Pat’s work often shows scope creep, changing the potential outcomes and shape of the work they’ve been assigned. Pat feels they’re leading that work, and dismisses my direct requests in favor of their vision of what that work should be. Of course we do take on approaches Pat offers! But sometimes I really must ask for the work to stay focused on specific goals or be delivered in certain ways.  When I provide guidance, Pat requests multiple meetings to discuss details to get aligned. So the work doubles or triples … And the pattern starts again with the next assignment. 

    All together these things are happening at least 3-5 times a week, and sometimes multiple times a day. As a result, I’m spending a good deal of extra time clarifying and reframing, or mending organizational relationships. This behavior is also frustrating and distracting to other team members, as it often takes over the planned agenda of team meetings. I’m exhausted and increasingly at a loss, even though I’m trying to have empathy for what might be driving these behaviors.

    I’d like to address these challenges in a generous but actionable way, alongside acknowledging accomplishments. Thanks for your thoughts!

    1. Rick Tq*

      It sounds like you haven’t been as direct as you need to be with Pat. In the next meeting with him you need to start by making it clear to HIM that continuing the negative behaviors you have discussed will result in him being fired.

      Complying with your management directions and limits is not a good idea, it is a requirement to keep his job.

    2. Cheshire Cat*

      As far as “taking over team meeting agendas” goes, you definitely have the ability to shut that down. Tell Pat that you have lots of ground to cover, and you’ll get to their concerns at the end of the meeting if there is time.

      If they try to talk anyway, give them one warning and then mute them if it’s a Zoom meeting. If the meetings are in-person, this is obviously harder, but Alison has addressed this in previous letters.

      Does Pat understand the “iterative feedback” process that you expect? It might be useful to explain, step by step, what you mean by that.

      When Pat “corrects” your feedback, you can absolutely tell them, “By focusing on [this detail] you are missing my point. I need for you to stop doing A, B, and C and do X, Y, and Z instead.” You will most likely have to repeat this a number of times before it sinks in.

      And finally, try not to express or show “sympathy for what’s driving Pat’s behaviour”. That is probably making your requests seem optional rather than directive to Pat.

      Best of luck! Pat sounds exhausting.

    3. Water Everywhere*

      This reads like a “my boyfriend is great except for this one thing, how can I ignore all the red flags and make this work?” letter. You say Pat produces good work but then detail all the ways Pat is not good at their job. Someone who oversteps to the point where no one wants to work with them, who cannot accept feedback from their manager, who can only focus on how they want the job to be done and ignores the actual requirements? Is not a good employee. This needs a very serious conversation, maybe even PIP-level, to lay out for Pat how their approach and attitude need to change because their job is at stake.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I don’t think generosity is called for here. Pat’s already burned their bridges with one other team, and probably more before that. They need it made very clear to them that taking direction from you and sticking to the scope that the rest of the team and other stakeholders have agreed upon are not negotiable if they want to be trusted with greater responsibility, and that digging in their heels when they’re not able to execute their “vision” exactly as they’d like will result in those opportunities going away.

    4. CommanderBanana*

      I think eventually, regardless of how good a person’s performance is, there comes a point where the ROI of how much time and energy you have to spend on directing one person just isn’t worth it anymore. And sometimes it takes consequences to drive that action home – as in, you have to commit to doing / not doing x, y, and z behaviors, and then if they don’t, letting them know they’re not getting a raise, a promotion, etc.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Also, the Pats of the world drive away other employees. I can assure you that their colleagues are probably just as sick of their behavior as you are.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        One eye opener for me was when my own version of a Pat went on an extended vacation and I realized how much calmer and happier I was when they were gone.

        1. HonorBox*

          We had a Pat of sorts who left for a different job. Our Pat had complained about how office culture was not great. Following their departure, everything has been very smooth, so it was Pat who was really just looking in the mirror and not recognizing their reflection.

    5. Tio*

      I think your sympathy is making you not put down the hard lines you need here. Pat’s work has scope creep – you need to tell them they can’t add things. Pat takes on other work? You should be knowing about that, and if you find out they are doing that reassign it to someone else/redirect it back to wherever it came from (if they’re taking other departments’ work) and tell Pat they CAN NOT DO THAT. Hard lines. If you see them doing that work you stop, and make sure that wherever the work is replaced to, the person who’ll be doing it knows that Pat has a history of trying to take these things over and they are not to give Pat details, and let you know if Pat presses the issue. Hard lines, and see if they fight you on it. If they rail against it hard, might be time to let them go. If they reluctantly settle in, maybe it can be salvaged.

    6. HonorBox*

      The work product being fine to great is fantastic. But you need to evaluate work performance like you would be evaluating overall performance if you’re buying a car. Sure, both cars you’re comparing can get you from point A to point B, have four wheels, and a fully intact windshield. But if one car pulls to the right and you’re constantly turning the steering wheel to stay on the road, you’re going to be unhappy.

      Pat might get you from point A to point B, but you’re investing A LOT of time and energy (3-5x per week is a lot) in pulling the car back into the middle of the driving lane.

      You don’t need to know why Pat is behaving the way they are. Don’t go on a fact finding mission to figure that out. You need to spend the time in the evaluation telling Pat that while their work is solid, the other stuff is creating distraction and more work for you. Pat needs to hear directly that when you’re giving feedback, it isn’t a point-counterpoint situation. Pat needs to stay in their lane (sorry, realized the pun given my example) and not change the scope/shape of the work assigned. If there are questions or suggestions, they should bring them to you before making changes. And tell them that you can’t have multiple meetings to discuss project details. And tell them that you need to see a change in all of these things (outline as much as you can for them in your meeting) they may be put on a PIP or fired.

    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Pat is doing his take on the “brilliant jerk”.
      Sensible managers and functional workplaces won’t tolerate jerks, so he needs to be told firmly to stop this behaviour or be put on a PIP.

      Don’t keep trying to sympathise and to be understanding. He is irritating the hell out of coworkers and taking up their time, not just yours. He is a problem, not a good employee.

    8. Part time lab tech*

      I “might” have one big picture conversation about how perfectionist tendencies ruin profit margins and team relationships.
      I agree that things being calmer when Pat’s gone is a giant red flag though. Never put them in charge of people.
      I am going to make one point in Pat’s defense. If, and it’s a very big if, they can be trained to look at the big picture and other people’s POV, her task and problem solving ability could be great assets. This might be done by directly having them think about flow on costs and benefits for other teams, forcing them to think about more than just making things better for their area of interest.

    9. Happily Retired*

      I’m sorry, but you’re their manager. You need to MANAGE. They argue with feedback, they change the nature of their assignments, they “dismiss your direct requests…” These aren’t requests; these are directions from their manager that they are refusing to do – this is called insubordination.

      I think you need to have one more meeting where you summarize all this and tell them that, despite their talent and successes, they are in danger of being fired, and that unless they change their behavior drastically, the next meeting will be placement on a formal PIP, with firing if they don’t meet the terms.

      If your company has an EAP, you might suggest that they explore the support there. You can’t (mustn’t) try to diagnose, but perhaps EAP can offer some help.

      Again, I’m sorry, because you seem like a very kind person. But Pat is alienating employees in other departments, and I’d bet the other three members of your team are sick of it all.

    10. Hermione Danger*

      I’m reminded of a Simon Sinek short titled, “Who Is the Asshole?” you can find on YouTube. It’s about how we measure for (and reward) performance rather than leadership qualities, and how that’s not necessarily a good thing.

    11. Jan Levinson Gould*

      I managed a Pat. It was their (often overly-complicated) way or the highway, but they did get along with colleagues. Management not so much. It was coming to a head and I was about to foist them onto another group when they decided to leave, with (figuratively) both middle fingers in the air and burning the bridge behind them.

      I spent more time managing Pat than I did several other direct reports combined. They produced some excellent work, but it wasn’t worth the drama and it was a relief when they left. Some people are difficult to manage, period. I really tried too and it was time wasted. Managing them out might be the only option.

    12. iheartcardigans*

      Thanks all for this really good and direct feedback on how I’m enabling some of this behavior and for the suggestions for next step conversations on actions & consequences with Pat!

      I also appreciate the comments pointing out the broader impact of Pat’s behavior. A number of experiences you’re describing in the replies reflect things I’ve seen in other jobs. I always wondered why management didn’t just handle the impact “effective but disruptive” colleagues were having… I’d say the calculations of benefit vs cost weren’t calibrated well. I’ll have to adjust my math too, since I don’t want to make that kind of environment for my other staff and our peers in our organization.

      I’m taking notes and will try to update on outcomes after my next conversations with Pat. Thanks again!

  54. Cheshire Cat*

    Team building! I’ve thinking about this and imo my company handles it really well overall.

    My company does a few team-building activities every year. We are all remote, and scattered across the US, so the activities don’t involve things like rock climbing or ziplining. The company sends everyone a gift card for lunch (yes, we are small) and then the activity follows. We’ve had trivia contests and virtual Bingo, among others.

    Occasionally there will be a company-wide chat at a specific time on a given topic. These are, essentially, the kinds of things you might mention if you’re physically in the break room with other staff. What games do you enjoy playing, and why? (video, board, card…whatever) What book have you read and enjoyed recently? Do you have photos of your pets?

    No one is ever chastised for not attending or participating AFAIK. I don’t have pets but I enjoyed seeing other peoples’ photos. One of the activities from a couple of years ago was a virtual escape room, and the organizers disclosed up front that there could be jump scares. I do not enjoy those and said so when I declined. And sometimes someone has a tight deadline and has to drop out early, or not attend at all.

    1. allathian*

      We had something similar during the lockdowns. We still schedule 15 minute coffee chats 3 times a week, but most people skip those now that we’re hybrid.

  55. Sally McSalamander*

    Is it worth talking to my workaholic coworker about how his lack of boundaries impacts me?

    Longer story: everyone I work with LOVES my coworker. We are both leads on the same team. He is endlessly accommodating and has no boundaries. He will work overtime without anyone asking him to, he will take on others’ workloads, he is always emotionally supporting others. AND YET. As his co-lead, I find him INCREDIBLY challenging to work with. He will not speak up for himself. We have another coworker who can talk at you for hours. I handle this by telling Chatty that I have three minutes to talk, then at the three minute mark say that I’m done and telling him he has to leave my office. Co-Lead will just…let Chatty talk at him. Which means that, since Co-Lead and I share an office, I often have to kick Chatty out. Co-Lead always thanks me, but I get the reputation for being unfriendly.

    Our boss is terrible. I will speak up and push back and usually manage to reverse some of his more horrible decisions. I also refuse to work outside my pay grade unless in very specific circumstances. Because of my boundaries, I have been able to enact some positive change in our division. Co-Lead will never say no, becomes increasingly terse (only with me) because of his rapidly growing workload, and literal legal requirements remain undone because he won’t stand up for himself.

    With our interns, Co-Lead is endlessly positive and supportive. He provides no structural or constructive feedback. He won Mentor of the Year for our intern program. I provided actual professional coaching (like, you must wear your shoes at a tabling event, your cover letter is actively hurting you so here is some feedback, check-ins, etc). I also assigned the interns projects and work tasks where he just had the interns doing whatever they wanted.

    Overall, he is exhausting. He will not assign people projects. He will not institute any structure because that might make people mad. I have had coworkers thank me for the structure and feedback systems I’ve implemented, so I know my changes are noticed and appreciated but it is SO exhausting being the ONLY one to do it. I am leaving. I start a new job in two weeks. And I’m wondering if it is worth it/appropriate to talk to my Co-Lead about how his behavior has impacted my decision to leave.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Not worth it! Save your energy and mental energy for people who appreciate you! It’s highly unlikely the conversation with co lead would give you the outcome you want, it would likely just burn that bridge.

      1. Sally McSalamander*

        Thank you! I have this problem where I feel like if I just tell people something in the right way, I can help them, but I think you’re right. I just needed to hear that from someone else, you know?

      2. Boggle*

        Yeah, I agree, I completely understand your perspective because I have a similar co-worker. They bend over backwards for other employees to the point our tiny department is now expected to be like *them*. They don’t use the systems in place to manage their work, so we have no metrics to confirm the need for another team member. They have one of those very positive personalities and I really like him as a person, but they can’t/won’t see the bigger picture. Of course, our manager should be stepping in but as long as the work is being done, however it’s being done, they won’t do a thing. And our manager is actually expecting my coworker to be available for the senior staff at any time to make the *manager* look good. Luckily for me, I’m retiring in a few months so this will all be a fading memory, hoping the same for you in your new job. Close this door without slamming it and keep looking forward.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      He sounds like he’s deliberately seeking a reputation as a martyr – overwork, not delegating, people-pleasing – those all go together. Yes, this is an exhausting work style.

      Does your mutual boss know about, and care about, this pattern of behavior? You can’t psychoanalyze him, but you can point out how specific things he does causes more work for you, for your reports, etc.

      1. Sally McSalamander*

        Oh my gosh, the martyrdom reputation is EXACTLY it. And our mutual boss does not care and actively uses that aspect of my co-lead to his (boss’s) advantage. (Ex: Boss will ask me to do something, I ask about task prioritization since I can’t get everything done (obviously worded differently), boss will say never mind and just give it to CoLead who will proceed to work every single day for three weeks straight).

      2. Unkempt Flatware*

        Yes I agree and I’d watch with bemusement as he burns himself out. You simply cannot take this on. As for the people like Chatty who take advantage, I’d ask them before they even start talking to take it to a conference room and not in my shared office. Also, a well placed, “don’t talk to me like that” should work well for the terseness. How obnoxious.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Congratulations! He is still a slowly leaking ship, but now without any handy buoyancy devices in the office. You can use all that energy on yourself now!

    4. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Make like Elsa, let it go. You can’t save someone from himself. You can’t have boundaries for another person. The wisdom you have and apply to your own life is, unfortunately, not transferable. He’s only going to figure this stuff out when he’s ready, and not a minute before.

      1. Sally McSalamander*

        You’re so right, thank you! I appreciate the advice–especially that I can’t have boundaries for another person.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      I have worked with people like this over the years. Don’t waste your time talking to him about how his behavior impacted you. He will not take it on board, and may even blame you for his failings (probably not to your face, but will bad mouth you after you leave). Because after all everybody likes him!

      But yay – you escaped! Congrats on the new job.

    7. allathian*

      Rejoice in the fact that your co-lead will have to do without you. You’re well rid of him, talking to him would probably not be productive, so don’t bother.

    8. Student*

      Congratulations on your new job. I had an acting manager a lot like your co-lead and would much rather work under someone like you who actually manages. If your workplace lets him get away with that, you are better off taking your skills elsewhere than trying to reform their dysfunction on your way out.

  56. Boggle*

    I am retiring in a few months after 20 years at the same company. I’ve never established any close relationships with other employees outside of a working one, I live further away than most, and so never interacted with them in my personal life. I have always been known as a high performer, and people would gravitate to me for assistance instead of other team members.

    Now that I’m leaving, all I keep hearing is “what are they going to do without you?” but only in reference to my work. It doesn’t help that my job is support-based, and I’ve assisted hundreds of employees over the last 20 years. After Covid, and 100% WFH, we are now back in the office 3 days a week. I have stopped attending any company functions and will use any excuse I can to work remotely more days a week. I just feel completely burned out, not interested, and holding on by my fingernails until I can just dump and run. The admin of my department actually said to me “You don’t want a party, do you?”, which felt kind of like a slap in the face. Another coworker left about 2 years ago who was a social butterfly and had two retirement parties. I did not want a party since I don’t want the questions about what I’m going to be doing in retirement. My first weeks/months will be sloughing off the stress of this job, and I can honestly say I won’t miss anyone.

    I was used by management as the path of least resistance, and it was assumed and expected I would just do whatever I was told. I was asked to become manager of my team a few times but could not imagine being responsible for their work product, attending meeting after meeting, and having the director on my back about inane things. I also am the primary trainer for anyone joining the team, we just had someone start a few weeks ago, and are currently looking for my replacement, no candidates yet. I’m leaving even if they don’t find someone. I am also the primary administrator for an application for which I’ve asked for a backup but which never materialized. I will recommend they use a consultant and pay out the nose.

    The closer I get to my last day; I am caring less and less. My official retirement date is 02/25 but am taking all but one day of January off. My manager probably thinks I will be working up until my retirement date, he’ll get that rude awakening in our next 1-on-1 meeting.

    Thanks for letting me get that out, my job wasn’t all bad, it gave me an opportunity to work in a field that challenging and every day was something different and I was not bored. There were a few other employees I had some laughs with, but most were just interested in my assistance. Looking forward to new interests in my retirement and hope I get to enjoy a long one with my (retired) husband. :)

    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      You say you don’t care but you obviously do. So take time to journal and make a list of regrets and get it all out. Sounds like you did want to have more relationships and more involvement, but it just did not happen, maybe because of the personalities; a little because you stopped putting in effort. So maybe add a “what could I have done differently” column to aforementioned list.
      Hopefully you learn something from it all, and focus on today. Sounds like a cliché, but after you work through yesterday, all we can do is focus on today and tomorrow.

      One piece of advice I will give you is, if you have such silly reasons to avoid social situations, you WILL regret it. I do the same thing and over the past few years, there is always a reason to avoid a meeting or party. Being asked about retirement is a ridiculous reason to not have a party and to avoid people. You will regret it. Just give blanket answers. You may be the type that thinks they want detailed, essay length answers. They don’t. They’re just making small talk or want to get the gist you will enjoy life

    2. Colette*

      It sounds like people are reacting the way they are because of choices you’ve made. You didn’t establish personal relationships with anyone, take any opportunity to work from home, don’t attend company functions – so it shouldn’t be a surprise if they assume you don’t want a party or mention they’ll miss you on a professional level – they don’t know you any other way. (If they had a party for you, would you want to show up?)

      And that’s OK! You don’t have to have a social circle or personal friendships at work. It sounds like you’re burned out and need a break, and that you don’t really want to maintan relationships there. You’ve only got a couple of months to go – focus on wrapping stuff up/documenting it for whoever ends up taking over, and then enjoy your retirement.

    3. M2*

      Congrat! I would try to spin it positively. They asked you to be a manager because they thought you did great work/ believed in you and your work product instead of thinking they were using you.

      That’s what a job is basically? An employer pays you for your work product and what you produce for them. You did a lot for the organization and assisted a lot of people!

      It is probably hard because it’s getting so close but if you try and spin things positively I think it will really help the last few months and help life in general.

      Out of all my careers I am really only friends with one former coworker. I am friendly with some but I wouldn’t say we are friends. It’s totally normal!

      Congrats and enjoy your retirement!

    4. Another Kristin*

      You know, I had something hurtful happen to me a few years ago, where I thought a friend group I’d been part of had drifted apart, then found up that they were all still hanging out…just not inviting me anymore. It really stung, but then I realized that in the end, I didn’t actually like any of these people and I was better off not having fake friends.

      This is to say, it hurts to be rejected, like when the admin asked if you didn’t want a party, but you don’t like or want to spend social time with these people, so…? That’s actually kind of a good thing, since no one is forced to do things they don’t want to do with people they don’t enjoy spending time with.

    6. Part time lab tech*

      Perhaps they would have cared about you as a person if you’d let them.
      As someone who is very introverted and reserved, life is more fun if you you join in, even if it’s one time in ten or only with three people.
      It’s funny, I watched A Man Called Otto last night, based on a Swedish novel A Man Called Ove. Both your comment and ‘Pat’ from another comment remind me of that character.
      I wish you more caring in your retirement.

  57. ArlynPage*

    I was a final candidate for two different positions: job A was an administrative position for a major academic institution, and job B was the analogous position on a different project for a part of the same institution (as an example: project manager for UCLA vs project manager for UCLA School of Music). I got an offer from job A and accepted it (yay!), and therefore withdrew my application from job B. Job A was my preference, but I did like the ~12 people from job B that I interviewed with, and our paths may cross from time to time. My question: is it ok to try to connect on LinkedIn with the people from job B that I interviewed with? I may see them at admin meetings and there may be projects that intertwine our groups.

    I normally wouldn’t care much about LinkedIn, but job A may be a fixed term situation and I want to make sure I maintain my network as much as possible. The hiring manager was extremely gracious about me withdrawing my candidacy, and specifically pointed out that we may cross paths in the future.

    2. ferrina*

      It’s fine.
      Personally, I would probably wait until I interact with them again, but I know people that would happily add them now. Either way is just fine!

  58. Little My*

    I recommend Attorneys at Paw: Hound, Wolfe and Chase. Sounds like all the partners are canine, but they have an ad with a feline saying “Is your bowl half full? You may be entitled to compensation. I don’t get fed if you don’t get fed. Meow now.” Even if they only provide services for canines and felines, not humans, they may have a referral for you.

    1. Little My*

      This was supposed to be a reply to Margaret Cavendish* who was complaining about unfair labor practices related to being deprived of cats.

  59. City Planner*

    Would love some suggestions or just some sympathy:

    I recently started a new job, managing a department that is pretty close-knit – they all have lunch together in our break room every day. I’ve joined them a couple of times, but I’m not going to join the lunch group regularly. I think they deserve to have their lunch break without the boss in the room and I need the quiet time to do my own thing. However, there are times when it’s really clear that I’m the outsider who is not part of the in-group in the department. While the staff is generally pleasant, I’m clearly excluded from more social things. In addition, it’s relatively rare for this organization to hire department managers from outside. The other managers at my level have all been with the organization for 10+ years (or their entire careers), so I’ve felt kind of isolated. Any suggestions for ways to feel less like the outsider?

    1. Colette*

      Can you reach out to the other managers at your level and get coffee/lunch occasionally to get to know them?

    2. ferrina*

      Do you have 1-1s with your team? Not only is it good management, but it allows you to form relationships with them individually (not as a group). Yes, these are primarily working relationships and you will always be slightly removed from the people you manage, but it will help you feel more comfortable.

      Outside of your team, how have you tried to form relationships so far? I second Colette’s suggestion of asking some of your peers to coffee or lunch. Or if that feels awkward, ask to pick their brain on a work matter. I have made so many connections by reaching out and saying “hey, I’m working on a plan to do X. I heard that you’ve done something similar, and I’d love to pick your brain and get your advice.” It’s friendly gesture that shows that you respect and acknowledge their skills and expertise.

      1. Colette*

        Yes, I second this approach. Asking your peers for their professional expertise is a good way to start to build a relationship.

        1. HonorBox*

          Both Colette and ferrina said exactly what I was thinking. You’re the manager and shouldn’t necessarily be in the mix socially with the team. Get to know them through 1:1s. Take an interest in them as a person, but not as though you’re trying to be friends. This should help them warm up to you.

          And definitely talk with your peers. Build relationships there too. It will be much easier to have a more friendly relationship with someone you’re not supervising.

    3. Unkempt Flatware*

      I would not expect to ever be invited to socialize with your staff in the way you’re describing. I also want to keep my boss out of my relationships with my work besties. That being said, I make sure the optics are okay. A packed break room full of happily yapping besties can be pretty intimidating to walk into. I’d at least say hello and ask about your lunch or day.

    4. Kay*

      It will probably take some time, along with what some others have suggested. Keep in mind that social things with your subordinates is probably not something you want to be doing (maybe once in a while depending on what exactly these things are).

    5. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      I had a few managers who would reserve a table at a local bar for happy-hour for the team. Often they would buy the first round (and sometimes appetizers), so they did get about 40% turnout of the team. Non-drinkers were also welcome at these parties. One manager did it monthly for about a year, and then it changed to quarterly. Typically you could meet up with the group, have one drink, and make it home not too late. Some team members had their significant others’ meet them there for burgers.

  61. Tradd*

    Is anyone else seeing salaries way below what you were making for similar jobs just before the pandemic? I was making $65K as a licensed customs broker in March 2020 when I was laid off (turned out to be a good thing). I’ve been looking as current place is a dumpster fire. One place was offering $60K. I was just contacted about another customs broker position and they are offering $50K! I make considerably more now than I did in 2020, but current pay is a massive outlier. I realize that. But places wanting the difficult to get customs broker license plus experience and wanting to pay $15K less than I did in 2020 is just bewildering. I’ve been in the industry 30 years (broker as 10+ and transportation side before that).

    If left current place, I’d want something that would still allow to me to save for retirement st a decent clip. These salaries being offered wouldn’t allow that.

    1. FriYay!*

      I was casually looking for jobs about a year or so ago and market rates for my role were on average quite a bit higher. When I started seriously looking recently, the average had dropped to lower than my current pay.

    2. M2*

      I haven’t seen it personally but heard from. Few people some organizations pay less now because of WFH or offer two salaries one if you WFH one if your RTO. I have not seen it myself but I was at a conference this summer and a few people mentioned it.

    3. AnonAdmin*

      Landed in a state job a couple years back – pay not as good, but decent benefits. Have stayed long enough that pay has nearly caught back up to what I was making pre-pandemic.

      When looking out of curiosity in local area, jobs being advertised as “administrative” are paying not much over state minimum with little to no benefits mentioned. This for jobs that are definitely not entry level – usually looking for 3-5 years with ‘some’ management/working with executives experience.

    4. Stuart Foote*

      There has been a lot of stuff written about “ghost jobs” which employers post without intending to fill…wonder if the low pay is intended to discourage people from applying.

      1. Tradd*

        These were jobs I was contacted about by the hiring companies themselves after seeing my profile on LinkedIn.

    5. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’ve seen the range get bigger and the minimum requirements lower. During the pandemic there was a lot of turnover. Employers were desperate to hire and lowered the minimum experience requirements, which in turn lowered the bottom of the range. So now you can start in my role at a much lower salary. That said, good companies will pay much more for people who have more experience. And as the hiring market is tightening, those experience requirements are starting to creep back up too.

    6. Tio*

      50k for a licensed broker would never get a hire in my area – entry writers get paid that! Maybe for a brand new baby broker who just licensed, but dang. My first brokerage position as a licensed broker was for $45k and that was in 2014 and I had NO idea what I was doing lol. Every single position I had after that, even without reports, was 60+. I know there’s regional pay influences, but that seems wild to me.

    7. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I am applying for seasonal retail work in New State, and an alarming number are paying at most $1.50 more per hour than I made the last time I worked seasonal retail in Old State. In 2011.

  62. anon here*

    Newish middle-manager in a conservative industry (think finance). Dress code issue with one of my reports. We are in between dress codes at the moment (the old one was too stultifying, even for us). That said, the rough culture is to dress for your day, which basically means (for the licensed professionals in the office, some of whom are public-facing every day and some of whom are less often–I and my team are on the “less often but definitely not never” end): casual clothes rarely; business-casual as a default, i.e., when not public-facing (but sometimes can get away with jeans on the bottom); and business-formal when public-facing. My direct report has occasionally shown up in things that are high-effort but are significantly more weekend- than business-casual. (Think covered up but tight outfit with matching neon eye look.) Recently wore a tightlaced corset over a sweater. (The corset was body-modifying in a Cronenbergian body horror/Kim Kardashian at the Met Gala 2024 way.) There have been a few other professionalism issues; this is their first job out of school (though they are only a bit younger than me).

    Do I say something?

    I do see part of my role as mentoring my reports, informally, on professionalism and norms. If I should say something in this capacity, how do I make it clear that it is as a mentor rather than as their supervisor?

    So far, all the public-facing attire has been fine, but I am concerned my boss (the Big Boss) will see them around the office and will be less than happy.

    1. You can call me Flower*

      It can be hard when you’re starting out how to dress for work. I think you kindly mention it and something like, “Hey, not all companies are like this, but at our company the executive team (or whomever) are particular about dressing professionally which means, avoiding a and b. And sticking with “dress pants and a nice sweater that isn’t too tight or low cut.” I know these things can be hard to navigate when starting out. I found it helpful to emulate how people dress in x department. (Or give an example of a person they work with who has a good grasp on it.) If I were her, I would be more mortified that no one said anything, and I was being judged than having my boss say something kindly and discreetly.

    2. DressCode*

      I think you need to get a formal dress code in place stat, especially since it varies by circumstance. I would find what you described extremely confusing without specific guidance and if you brought up what I wear the first thing I’d do is ask for the dress code so I had a set of rules to follow.

      1. Czhorat*

        I don’t quite agree with that – most places work well without a formal dress code, but just a loose “casual/business casual/business formal” and people use their judgement. Coaching someone that their judgment needs calibrating should be a one-time thing.

        1. DressCode*

          Not when the expectations are as variable as the OP is describing and you can’t just look at what others are doing.

          Also casual/business casual/formal mean very different things to different companies.

          1. Kay*

            I’m going with czhorat on this one – you shouldn’t need a detailed dress code for a good manager to be able to simply say “corsets over sweaters aren’t considered business casual here” or “neon green eye makeup is a step too far”. If you can’t figure out what business casual looks like after a discussion or two, a formal dress code is not going to solve the problem.

          2. Kay*

            I think a conversation or 2 should do the trick. If something along the lines of sweater, no corset doesn’t do the trick I don’t think a formal policy will solve the issue. On the other hand, my eyebrows might get a workout should I ever read something like “undergarments cannot be worn as outerwear” in a corporate handbook and would leave me forever curious.

    3. HonorBox*

      I think you can approach this as mentoring, but in a supervisory way. Just tell them that outfits that you’ve highlighted aren’t seen as work-appropriate and that while dressing down a bit for non-public facing days is fine, there may still be instances that come up when executives will see someone dressed a particular way or made up in a particular way that leads them to believe that individual is not acting professionally. Things that are too tight, things like a corset over a sweater, things like neon eye makeup don’t fit in your company’s business casual culture. You’re giving her some help as a mentor, but you’re also telling her as her supervisor that what she’s wearing isn’t acceptable at work.

    4. spcepickle*

      For sure say something, say it as their supervisor because you are helping to set them up for success which is the role of a supervisor. The line I have used is – I want people to talk about the work you are doing not the clothes you are wearing. It is 100% fair to call things out as inappropriate even when you have no dress code. You just have to do it consistently.

      Tight fitting is a hard one to call out as it can quickly devolve into calling out heavier people as dressed poorly. But you can say that neon make-up is not work appropriate and that corsets are an under garment (or as my grandmother would say – foundational wear). When telling people what you expect in a professional norms say it in a straight forward way and be direct. This is not a time to be “kind” by being subtle.

    5. Ellis Bell*

      I think it would be a kindness to tell her that clubwear or anything with catwalk edge is not going to do her any favours professionally. A great past letter to refer to is “where’s the line between pretty and professional clothes?” I think it’s easy for young women to get really turned around by beauty standards, or to conflate high fashion with high professionalism, instead of realising there’s only an ad-hoc link with professional standards. It’s about what is coded as professional, which yes has to involve effort, and coverage but that’s not the entire brief. If effort and coverage were all that was required, then a ball gown, or wizards cloak would do.

  63. You can call me Flower*

    I am hiring a senior copywriter. I’m looking for someone with some editing and writing experience (4 years), but I am getting applicants that seem way overqualified. They have 15+ years of experience and have managed entire marketing teams. This role wouldn’t manage anyone and it’s a team of two (me and this new hire.) I’m worried they would be miserable in a frankly pretty monotonous job, but I also don’t want to miss out on someone great, who might be looking for a change of pace. Do I interview them? How should I handle it?

    1. Bookworm*

      People stop wanting to be managers all the time. They don’t want the responsibility anymore, etc. I’d ask them about why they want to move into a non-supervisory role, but I’d definitely interview them.

    2. Yes And*

      Some questions:
      1. Do they address the overqualification in their cover letters? There are any number of legitimate reasons someone might be looking for a job a step down from their previous experience. If they address it to your satisfaction, all systems go.
      2. What is your tolerance for turnover? It’s possible that these are folks who just need a job for now, and will do great work, but will leave you as soon as something more appropriate comes up. If you’re comfortable with this job turning over periodically, that could be a reasonable trade-off for high-quality work.
      3. Do you have a decent pool of applicants you’re excited about that are more in line with your expectations of 4 years experience? If so, it’s reasonable to focus on those. But if not, that may force your hand on question #2.

      1. ferrina*

        These are excellent questions, and I second all of them.

        It’s very possible that these are people who are just applying to any job. But it’s also very possible that these are people that genuinely want an easier job.
        I would start by prioritizing the people who either a) meet the qualifications that you are looking for or b) address in their cover letter why they think they are a good fit when they are over qualified (and if they’ve managed teams, they should be anticipating that your first question is “aren’t you overqualified?” and addressing that in their cover letter).

        1. M2*

          This. And ask them! Look at their resumes to make sure they aren’t job hoppers and if you’re interested maybe have Hr screen them and ask that question during the screening and see what comes back?

          Granted, I did this before 2x.

          Once the person had a higher title at previous job but we paid more for a more junior role. They took the role and love it! I give them more freedom and they say they are learning a lot. They didn’t want the stress of the previous job. They are up for a promotion too.

          I hired another person who was overqualified and they answered all the right questions but I soon realized they got into my group and soon wanted to move departments. They used me as a cut through. I heard this from heads of other departments due to a policy of not applying within the company for a new role until you have been at your current role for 1 year. This person started applying right away (and no they acted like they were happy here). It didn’t end well for anyone and they were the wrong fit.

          So do your due diligence and ask questions and reference check but know sometimes people or companies aren’t the right fit.

    3. Expectations*

      Unless you specify exactly 4 years experience, most will read it as at least 4 years experience i.e. having experience. I would apply for a job that said 4 years and I have >30 years. If you want to remain an individual contributor most places have a single over/under line for senior/junior levels and I’d assume that was your line and it was a senior position unless something in the job description/ad made me think otherwise. If I discovered it was more junior during an interview process or that you weren’t looking to pay for a senior person I’d bow out at that point.

      1. You can call me Flower*

        This a good point. I have the salary in the job description, which is another reason this is strange. I mean it’s a good salary for the job duties, but I definitely feel like a senior person wouldn’t be happy with it. However if they are applying they must not have too many qualms about the salary.

    4. Llama Tea Parties*

      I’m leaving my current job and will be applying to much lower level jobs. I have 10 years left to retirement and still have something to contribute, but I want to do something simpler, to “ramp down”. I know it’s going to be lower pay. I know it’s going to be a lot less challenging – that’s intentionally what I’m looking for!

      Interview your over-qualified applicants and ask whether they’ve thought about the adjustment. If you typically do a phone screen before a full-blown interview, maybe include this as one of the questions?

      1. You can call me Flower*

        Thanks for your perspective! I wondered about this, because it is a great job for someone looking for something simpler. It’s not stressful or long hours and you get to work at home, so I can see where that’d be appealing to someone looking to “ramp down.”

    5. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      If they meet the skill-based requirements, absolutely interview them! But also, make sure you’re not making assumptions about skills based on experience. I.e. someone with 15 years experience managing a marketing team may not have actually done copywriting full-time at any point, and may be less skilled at that specific function.

      Also – be transparent and very specific about what the job is, and ask them head-on how they feel about it (and more specific probing questions). Like, “this job involves writing very similar pieces of copy X times per day/week. It can be monotonous, and the expectations are…” (like “you would be expected to follow boilerplate examples and would be limited in how much you can creatively deviate”). Especially if you’re interviewing in person or on video, if you’re specific enough about the job duties and constraints, you’ll get a visible reaction about whether people are on board or not. Of course you can and should talk up what’s good about the job too, you’re just vetting for “am I constantly going to be fighting them to stay within the constraints of the role? Or is this role as it actually is, not how they might see it with rose-colored glasses, genuinely aligned with what they want?”

    6. Generic Name*

      In retrospect, I was applying to jobs I was overqualified for at the beginning of my last job search. The reason being that I was so grossly underpaid at my last job, I looked at the salary range of what were essentially mid-level jobs (I’m senior level) and thought those jobs were for someone of my level. Thank goodness I didn’t get any of them and got my current job, which is much, much higher paying than my last one.

    7. DannyG*

      I was on the applicant end of this situation a few years ago. It was about the 3rd question during the first round interview. My situation was that my (late) wife had declined significantly and I needed to focus on her health and care. She hung on for 10 years before passing, by then I was satisfied with my staffing role and teaching on the side. That satisfied the hiring committee and that’s the job I have now. So: ask the question, there are many good answers.

  64. Faintofheartt*

    What do we think the reason is for the disparity between news that the American economy/jobs are “doing well” vs. actual friends/family having really difficult times getting/keeping a job? Ive known 3 people laid off in the last year, and it took my spouse 9 months to find a new job. But by all reports, the economy and jobs are doing well! What’s the deal? Some are calling it a “silent recession” but I’m not sure….

    1. Faintofheartt*

      Come to think of it, I would love Alison’s take on this. I wonder if I should email her…

    2. Czhorat*

      It has been written that the plural of “anectode” is not “data”. Two things can be true simutaneously – the job market can be overall healthy AND some people can have trouble finding jobs. The numbers are also presented for the country as a whole; there could be pockets where it’s different, some industries where it’s more challenging.

      “How can there be a recovery if I don’t have a job” can be a bit like “how can there be global warming if I need to wear a sweater today?” – you’re confusing one narrow experience for a broad trend.

      1. Faintofheartt*

        It seems to be a broader trend, though, that MANY people are losing their jobs and having difficulty finding new ones. True, my closest circle has had the experience, but I’m also in a few circles that show this is happening nationwide.

        But you’re correct, it could be anecdotal.

        1. I should really pick a name*

          How would you define many? Where are those many located?
          Your post describes 4 people having trouble, and that is not a statistically significant number.

          Even if the country’s economy is doing well on average, some individual regions can be doing poorly.
          Even within a region, some industries can be doing well while others do poorly.

          If you’re in a region with a poor economy, then yes, it makes sense that you know lots of people having trouble finding work. That doesn’t mean that the country’s economy on the whole is doing poorly.

          1. Busy Middle Manager*

            I follow the BLS/Bureau of Labor statistic reports closely since I am news junkie since I now day trade full time. Will say, it’s been a steady -10K in “information systems” jobs every month and growth is either in healthcare, restaurant/hospitality, or government. Very much trends towards well-paying jobs going away, low paying jobs being created.

            Some tidbits from the last report if you go to bls.gov. So not catastrophic but LT unemployed and unemployed up, part time workers up. Not painting the rosiest of pictures:

            “Both the unemployment rate, at 4.1 percent, and the number of unemployed people, at 6.8 million, changed little in September. These measures are higher than a year earlier, when the jobless rate was 3.8 percent, and the number of unemployed people was 6.3 million.”

            “The number of people employed part time for economic reasons changed little at 4.6 million in September. This measure is up from 4.1 million a year earlier. ”

            “The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks or more) was little changed over the month at 1.6 million. This measure is up from 1.3 million a year earlier.”

        2. Roland*

          My friend started a job hunt a few months ago as a senior software engineer, after a 2 year hiatus, and got multiple offers. But he isn’t dropping that into conversations where people are commiserating about their job hunts because he’s not tactless. I do think “it’s hard to find jobs” conversations are always going to go that way with people who don’t want to rub salt in people’s wounds.

          1. Faintofheartt*

            That’s actually a really good point I hadn’t considered! Personally, I’m wondering if I’m in that age bracket slightly between entry-level and mid/secure career level, where part of my peers group are holding or accepting very appealing steady jobs but others not so much. But again, anecdotal.

            1. Busy Middle Manager*

              I mean, there are stats to check it. Don’t be gaslit by positive anecdotes. There is a reason so many people are asking the same question.

              One place to look is BLS/Bureau of Labor Statistics, Employment by industry, monthly changes

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There is so much regional variation & job type variation that it’s hard to extrapolate from individual experiences to a single national number.

      Lots of laid-off newspaper employees. Critical shortage of nurses and restaurant workers. Etc.

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, the numbers only show what they are measuring. Macro and micro findings can be very different. Different markets will behave differently, so what you are seeing all depends on how you are looking at it.

        Are you comparing apples to apples? New jobs are being created, but that doesn’t mean that the job growth is evenly spread. Which industries are having job growth? Which levels are those jobs? It’s very common for new jobs to be created, while the people from the eliminated jobs don’t have a skill match for the newly created jobs. There’s also regionality, which is always a factor.

    5. sagegreen*

      For data, I’m in an industry that is booming. We need smart, highly skilled/trained people, and we’re in/about to go into a huge hiring frenzy. There will be more jobs in my sector than we have people trained for. My company alone has increased its workforce by 25% *this year*, and with a bunch of announcements in the last few weeks, there’s about to be more jobs than people. If you know people who are engineers, and want to do a 1-2 year Master’s degree, there will be jobs on the other side.

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        A job is hiring for data roles? Not being sarcastic, but I am legitimately shocked. Don’t want to put you on the spot, but it would be cool if you could do the opposite of name and shame, though I don’t expect it. Following Wall St, I can only think of one company that did NOT have layoffs in this area. I can’t even find job listings (that are real and not perennial reposted ghost jobs)

        1. Happily Retired*

          Perhaps sagegreen wrote “For data,” as opposed to providing anecdotes? Not that they are in data role.

    6. Law of Averages*

      This happens all the time because of a variety of things. I was one of those people throwing things at the TV during the post 9/11 recovery because it was so, so hard to find work and yet unemployment was supposedly extremely low. Things like employment numbers are based on sometimes outdated expectations for employment and are based on averages. Even in a really great economy some aspects are going to be better than others.

      Even in a great jobs economy 4-5% of the population is out of work – that’s still a lot of people. The main unemployment numbers assume you’re no longer interested in work if you’ve been out of work for 6 months or longer but I’ve had at least six periods when I was actively looking and it took me longer than six months, and that was after I started looking for both fulltime and contract employment. Many people take filler jobs or are underemployed or take salary cuts. Even when salaries are supposedly up, not everyone sees those increases and they certainly don’t see them all at once (it’s rare to get more than an annual raise and many people don’t get raises every year). And so on.

      Not everyone buys gas, but everyone has to eat. Grocery prices therefore have an outsized role in forming people’s impressions of economic comfort. That’s part of why it seems particularly bad to folks right now. Also folks who look at this academically will do things like rank or compare (in addition to the aforementioned averaging) and individuals may be theoretically happy that they’re doing better than other people, but it doesn’t help with expenses.

      In addition, so-called cost of living adjustments don’t really capture the true additional expenses inherent in very high cost of living areas, so many folks in places like Boston, NYC, and San Francisco will often be behind the curve compared to folks in less expensive areas.

      I could go on, but it all amounts to “the economy” is a nebulous set of averages and generalizations that only peripherally connect to the circumstances of any given individual or family.

    7. Busy Middle Manager*

      I grew up in an area that is upper middle class/becoming rich now and the people there are doing well because stocks are going up everyday, which is effectively printing them free money. And many of the newer people there do jobs servicing other rich people so it’s a loop, and they’re out of touch with regular people.

      But 80% of it is media framing. I am a financial news junkie because I was managing my stocks for years and now am a day trader.

      I listen to the earnings calls and Fed speeches, etc. and the media is simply not reporting negative information. This will not last. To give one example, Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JP Morgan, is a celeb on Wall St. Sort of like Warren Buffett. He said 2X on the call that assets are overvalued and he cannot predict what profits will be.

      How did the media report this? They did not report that he said stocks and real estate are overvalued. And they lied and said he thinks earnings will go up.

      So you need to look at the source, right now I believe/see they’re trying to lure the last retail investors into stocks before the rug pulls that come almost every year, hence are not reporting information. It’s horrible BTW

      Lastly, most of Wall St. still only cares about # of jobs created. Maybe it made sense in 1980 when you could rent an apartment while working retail. It is a meaningless metric especially with lower paying jobs being created, but looked good last month due to so many restaurant and hotel jobs being created*. We need a new metric.

      * something like 14 of the last 18 jobs reports were revised down last time. The ADP report is more accurate long term and showed 150K jobs were created. The government says 254K jobs. Last few times the difference was that much, it was revised down. Not a political opinion, but an observation. Honestly, I do not believe politicians pressure the BLS to lie, I think BLS is just bad at collecting data. Why? Any politicians looks absolutely clueless bragging about the job market right now.

      1. Faintofheartt*

        I’m certain that you’re right – the media isnt reporting bad or negative info. And I just have this odd feeling that we can’t keep this up forever.

    8. Meep*

      Honestly? Like attracts like.

      By that I mean I suspect there is a lot of overlap in the following between your husband, friends, and family:
      – Location
      – Socioeconomic Status
      – Industry

      Location: Some cities have better opportunities than others. Size of the city, the state you are in, and all that have impact at what kind of jobs you can find in your desired field. My engineering specialty has a couple of “Valleys” such as Silicon Valley or Seattle area where those jobs are abundant. Heck, in my city, due to the University being only one of 4 in the country that has my specialty’s undergrad college available, we have ~100 companies. Our population is 350,000 people. Another example is how Michigan house a lot of the car manufacturing industry. If the jobs aren’t there or are not as abundant, you are going to have a hard time unless you move. Which can be difficult due to the next topic…

      Socioeconomic Status: I come from an affluent city and family. None of my cousins walked away with debt straight out of college AND we had connections that actually landed a couple of them jobs. We didn’t have to scrape and scramble looking for work and could take our time since we didn’t have student loans to pay off and could fall back on our parents. We didn’t have to pick up odd or undesirable jobs. We got to pick the jobs we wanted in the location we wanted. And if not, we only really had to be there for a year or two before we could move on. There is a less chance of layoff too, since we don’t have to pick a bad work environment.

      And lastly, industry: Most adults tend to know people in their industry as they get older. My guess is some of your friends are in the same industry as your husband? And if that industry is struggling, it is going to be harder to find jobs than compared to a more booming industry. For example, when I graduated in 2018, there were probably 200 people graduating with a BS, MS, or PhD in my field across the country, but the number of open positions was closer to 500. Therefore, it was very easy for most fresh students to find a job.

      Of course, these are just three factors. There are a ton of other personal factors like how well you interview/present yourself and if you are looking for jobs outside of your expertise. I have an acquaintance whose resume I am desperate to see (my idiot BIL helped it with him) who got 0 interviews for retail jobs. I suspect it is the resume, because he has 15 years of retail experience and the only new factor is my idiot BIL. Once he switched to his old resume, he got a job offer within the week.

    9. Annie*

      Aside from what’s already been mentioned (selective media reporting to the point of deception and variations between locales and industries), the parts of the economy and jobs that are “doing well” may be the less desirable parts (low pay, less agreeable schedule, essential tasks and/or tough working conditions that effectively shut out people with certain disabilities, icky job tasks, etc.)

  65. Cadence C*

    Note to all managers: some of your employees can only be as strong as the person training them! I have been trying at my current job for over 2 years and still feel like I could be doing better but don’t have the resources to do that. I was informed when I hired that it would be on the job training, no materials to read. I go to my supervisor on a regular basis and the inconsistencies and browbeatings coming from them are ridiculous, as well as them coming at me for a mistake literally 20 minutes after discovering one of their mistakes and walking on eggshells so I don’t come across as shoving it in their face (I mostly say I don’t know who made the mistake). its like tit-for-tat every time! I’m sick of this job but have less than a year of school left so I kind of have to stick it out so I’m not job hopping. ughhhh.

    1. ferrina*

      Good luck! That is super frustrating. It sounds like the supervisor is thin-skinned and reacts poorly to feedback- that’s a horrible approach to management, and it’s no wonder you aren’t thriving under that management! No one would!
      Add to that the lack of training opportunities, and it’s unrealistic that you would meet your full potential. No one thrives without support, and this place is throwing up barriers. Hopefully you can keep your head down and get out without incident- good luck on the school program! Hope it leads you to a wonderful new job very soon!

    2. Morgi Corgi*

      I had that happen at job once and it was SO frustrating. I looked like I was incompetent but it was really just that my trainer was awful. When I had someone else train me I excelled at the work. It’s only when said trainer tried to train others that management realized she was awful at it.

      I’m really sorry you’re dealing with this. But you’ve been there for over two years, I don’t think leaving now would be considered “job hopping.”

      1. Cadence C*

        I’m the same way… I usually excel and end up training others once I’ve learned a job. this us the first time I’ve felt miserable and like I’m a failure. I’ve even broken down over my laptop while trying to study for my bachelor’s, wondering how I could have gotten through three years of school if I’m this stupid just to realize I can’t be stupid at all if I’ve managed to get the great grades I’ve had so far. its them, not me!
        The job hopping comment meant moving to another job now just to go on the search when I’m done with school in 9 months. That’s frowned upon in our organization and I am hoping to just move to another department in a better role.

    3. HonorBox*

      Coming here to support what you’ve said. I saw this recently with a former coworker who was put in a leadership position. She completely missed the mark when it came to training new people who reported to her, among other issues, and one of them took an opportunity elsewhere just to get away. Now that she’s gone and someone else has filled that role, I’ve seen a distinct and positive change in how new team members are trained and brought up to speed.

  66. The Prettiest Curse*

    For anyone wondering what the current situation is for those of us who didn’t have the setting on LinkedIn to opt out of our content being used to train generative AI – they recently sent an email about their terms of service with the following details:
    “At this time, we are not enabling training for generative AI on member data from the European Economic Area, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.”

    So I suppose we’re safe (for now.)

  67. Getting out*

    I’m trying to figure out quitting my management job in the next couple months after having a strong performer transfer to my team. When the employee was considering switching to my team, I was planning to stay until at least summer 2025. However, I’ve reached the point where I just want to go, so my new plan is to finish up our existing project and leave in Dec / Jan.

    It feels like I pulled a bait and switch on this employee. Obviously I’m not going to share with them the reasons I’m leaving. If they hadn’t joined the team I’d probably have already quit. For the past year I’ve been cycling through (1) job gets untenable and ridiculous (2) I mentally set an end date and start wrapping my work up (3) hours or days before I give notice my boss starts talking about big changes that will address all my problems (4) repeat.

    New employee was recruited to my team by my boss to work on exciting stuff that they were supposed to drive. One project was done between offering them the role and them getting to transfer. The second was already in flight when they switched so I did most of the design. The third might not manifest if I leave, because I’m the ally in management to get it pushed through.

    1. ferrina*

      You get to leave.

      There is never a good time to leave. When you work with good people, it sucks because you leaving will make it harder on them. But that shouldn’t hold you back- you need to take care of yourself (put on your own oxygen mask first).

      Sometimes that actually encourages the strong performers to leave. I left one team where I was shielding them from toxic management, and within a year 80% of them had left as well. That’s obviously an extreme scenario, but sometimes we accidentally keep good people in not great situations because we are the part of the situation that makes it acceptable for them. That doesn’t mean that you should stick around until either all the strong performers leave or until it’s a good situation, because that day may never come. Insert adage about not setting yourself on fire to keep others warm. This is business, and it’s responsible in business to advocate for your own interests. Which you are doing by leaving. You are setting a good example by moving on.

      I hope your exit is soon, that you can quickly heal from this place, and that your next company is absolutely amazing!

    2. Daphne*

      I’ve been your employee several times. What I have learned is that people leave. There is never a guarantee that a job will stay the same for your entire tenure.
      Your employee might already know this, or if not, they will have to learn.

    3. Nicosloanica*

      Having been on the other side of this recently, it really is okay. People leave. Employees know the difference between “campaign promise” and what will actually happen, and that the gap might be miles wide. They may privately be unhappy with their situation – may even end up leaving – but that won’t make it your fault. Particularly since you didn’t even recruit them! (my past boss did personally recruit me and then leave – and I *still* understood that these things happen). Hopefully the employee factored in several factors before making their move and if not, well, this is how we learn to do that.

    4. Llama Tea Parties*

      You get to leave. You don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep your new hire warm.

      Things change all the time. People are allowed to get new positions, or have babies and go on parental leave, or win the lottery, or just decide that it’s time to leave.

    6. AnecdotallySpeaking*

      So I am somewhat in your employee’s position – I was hired to come drive a major new initiative that was going to require going against a great deal of institutional inertia. I would not have taken the job if I didn’t think the initiative had adequate executive support – it was one of the big things I asked about in the interviews. But in the last 6 months my boss’s boss (who was the main reason I accepted the role) and the c-suite exec who was the major executive ally of the initiative have left. My direct manager is still around, but doesn’t have the clout to get what I’d really need to have half a chance at success, and therefore I am planning on leaving. I am / disappointed/ the role didn’t work out, but I am not at all /angry/ with the leadership who left, and fwiw, I could imagine working happily with either again at a different company in the future. People leaving jobs happens, sometimes at inconvenient times, and I think your team will understand that

  68. Morgi Corgi*

    I’m looking for advice on to handle a recent encounter with a client.

    I would say 95% of my clients are amazing, kind, wonderful people and I will bend over backwards for them. But this particular client has decided she can’t stand me and I’m wondering how bad I messed up. She kept scheduling appointments and then missing them (she would over sleep or forget or something would come up) so I would call her after she missed an appointment and would do my best to reschedule her. The most recent time she missed an appointment she started offering a very long explanation of why she missed it, but much too quickly for me to understand what she was saying (some our clients struggle with anxiety so this isn’t uncommon). I had to interrupt her half way through to tell her she needed to slow down so I could understand, and I tried to offer reassurance that she didn’t need to stress out about missing her appointment (again), I would find a way to schedule her so she could have her needs met.

    I thought I was being supportive, but she got SUPER mad that I interrupted her and would not stop complaining to one of the higher ups about it (thankfully he knows that most of our clients like me and thought she was being obnoxious). Then someone outside our department accidently cancelled her next appointment so I called the client to confirm it was an error (as my manager suggested). She got really mad and yelled at me that it was our screw up (though she used less kind words).

    I guess I’m just wondering if there’s anything I could have done differently and how to handle her moving forward (my plan is to just continue to be cheerful and polite to her, but not friendly like I am with our other clients and just pray she forgives me).

    1. HonorBox*

      It sounds like you were very diplomatic given the circumstances. She missed appointments. That’s a fairly big deal. And while you did interrupt her, you did so in order to ensure you could understand her. As far as interruptions go, that’s not rude at all. Ruder would have been letting her continue and then having to ask her to repeat everything.

      The accidental cancellation was an error on your end, but it sounds like there was really no harm because you caught it and called her to confirm the error.

      All in all, I think you can chalk this up to someone who is going to be difficult. There probably isn’t anything you can do differently. She’s been a problem. She escalated a problem that wasn’t a problem. She yelled at you. That’s on her not on you.

    2. ferrina*

      Can you fire your client?

      A lot of details are missing, but from what you gave us, I’m not seeing anything you are doing wrong. If you are in an appointment-based industry and a client keeps missing appointments, that’s not on you. It’s also important if appointments are how you make your money- if she’s booking appointments then no-show and not paying, that’s costing you money because you could have booked a different client.

      The animosity is odd. Interrupting a client isn’t great, but it doesn’t warrant the cold shoulder (unless you were incredibly rude). Sometimes a client just doesn’t like you for reasons that have nothing to do with you. I’m a consultant, and I’ve had a client hate me because her boss picked my company and she had no say in which company she would be working with. I’m delightful with customer service, but this client started berating me from the moment we met. There was nothing I could do or not do that would change her mind- in her brain, I would forever be a symbol of her boss micromanaging her (no clue if he actually did micromanage her, but she certainly thought he did). This client is going to dislike you no matter what. There’s probably some deep psychological reason behind that, but I’m guessing you aren’t her psychologist, so you’ll likely never get to the bottom of this (though if you are her psychologist and she’s missing appointments and you’re trying to guess why, that would be an amazing premise for a one-person show). Just know that it isn’t you and try to ignore it.

      1. MsM*

        Agreed. Is your manager aware of the pattern here? Because if not, I’d go back to them and see if it’s time for someone higher-up to talk to this client about not taking appointment times or staff assistance for granted if they want to continue availing themselves of your services.

        If that’s not an option for whatever reason, then just remind yourself this is their issue, plaster on a smile, and make noncommittal “I see” and “I’m sorry” noises. Or feel free to hand them off to a supervisor at the first demand, and let that person either deal with it or revisit whether they want to do something about the situation after all.

      2. Morgi Corgi*

        Sorry for the vagueness, we work in a highly confidential field (we’re actually very similar to a therapist’s office) so I tend to be vague when discussing work.

        What I said to her was “I’m sorry, I’m having trouble understanding. Take a deep breathe, it’s going to be all right, I’ll find a way to get you in for another appointment. What can I do to help you?” I genuinely thought she was panicking (some of our clients to that) and needed reassurance (again, many of our patients need this), so I said what I thought would help, but now I’m concerned it came off as condescending? Or maybe she thought I was being dismissive?

        As for firing, we’re VERY low barrier, so rudeness and missed appointments are not enough to fire someone. On the rare occasion we have done so it’s because a client physically threatened us.

        Normally I can handle rude clients, because I know it has nothing to do with me, but in this case I’m second guessing if the rudeness was my fault.

    3. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Is this the kind of client relationship where making up the appointments is important to their physical or mental health? Or is something that could slide until they are ready to come to the appointment? If the latter, do you have to contact them or can you wait until they make the effort to reschedule? If the rescheduling is more critical and the reason why they missed the appointment is irrelevant to you, can you just let them talk themselves out without worrying about understanding them?

      1. Morgi Corgi*

        This is the kind of appointment where it’s important to their health to come in so I try to call people when they miss appointments to find out what’s going on and if there’s anything we can do to help them make appointments. So I guess the reason they missed their appointment can sometimes matter because it might be an issue that can be solved. But I guess it might be better to let them just talk it all the way out like you suggested, maybe I should do that with her moving forward.

  69. Bananapants*

    Seeking advice/experiences: I’m working full time and am considering a career switch that would require going back to school. I could potentially have my tuition fully covered *if I study full time* but I have no idea how to handle the job/living expenses side of things. I’m single and live alone, plus family is far away. Besides that, it might be insane to try to work close to full time on top of school. But the other option is pay the part-time tuition out of pocket and double the time I spend in school… Anyone done something similar and have thoughts to share?

    1. Alex*

      If you’re single with no kids, it is doable to go to work full time and go to school full time. It’s hard, but doable. I did it for two years.

      1. ferrina*

        Sometimes. It depends what school and what your other limitations are. I did a school that required additional time commitments, so the program was actually full-time and a half. I still worked part time, and had very, very little sleep. Many people can handle this; some people can’t. Know your own body. But it’s definitely easier when you are single with no kids, because you will have absolutely no free time.

    2. DannyG*

      As a 20-something resident I could handle that workload & lack of sleep. By my mid 40’s not so much. Any alternatives to reduce expenditures: e.g. roommate(s); walking/cycling distance from school and part time job; a job with a “Baylor Plan” type schedule (3 x 12hr shifts over a weekend) if you can juggle your classes.

    3. WellRed*

      If you have to attend classes be sure required classes are available when you can take them. Getting my English degree was nearly impossible if I could only take evening classes. I was in my 20s, couldn’t fathom it now.

    4. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Talk to the faculty Program Director — meaning, either the Undergraduate Program Director, or the Graduate Program Director, or whomever in the department works with the specific program you want (like MBA or whatever), and as many faculty of the program as you can. You can not the first person they’ve met who might try to swing full-time work plus full-time school, and they probably have a great of insight. For example, let’s say that your work is always particularly busy in the spring semester. Program Directors and faculty can tell you which classes NOT take to take during the spring semester, then, if they require a lot of outside work.

      Keep in mind: faculty are not the enemy. They really, really want to see students succeed in their degrees. It’s always better to go talk with the class professor if you’re struggling.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I worked full time while in school full time through two bachelor degrees (separately) and two masters degrees (simultaneously). Know thyself. It worked for me, because one of my neurospicies is hypomania and I am mostly a homebody without much of a social life anyway. Most of the time I was working from home, though there was one special year where I was in school full-and-a-half time (20 credits when 12 was full time), worked both a full time (desk) job and a part time (retail) job, and was on the advisory board for a youth group that involved 3-4 meetings and events monthly. (I really enjoyed it, weirdly, though I’m not in any rush to do it again.)

  70. CannotDoThisAnymore*

    Is anyone immune to or “protected from” being terminated for misconduct?

    Situation: If you are a specialized surgeon, like 1 of 7 nationally for a niche field, and have continuously berated your support staff with documented inappropriate phrases, outburst, and insults, is there ever any consequence? Or is it just, “This remarkable human being with no tact for human existence saves lives before they are even born, so he gets away with everything?”

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Oh yeah. He’ll get away with everything except losing his skills. He can kill, cheat, steal, and lie with impunity. Arrogance is a crucial attribute for people who seek careers as surgeons and it take a very special person to be that arrogant yet emotionally intelligent. There are many of them tho. It’s too bad this guy gets to hack into people.

    2. HannahS*

      Basically, yeah. I mean if that’s the situation you’re witnessing, then you’re already seeing it happen.

      You don’t even need to be that niche. I sometimes read the “shame pages” in my medical regulatory body’s journal, and it seems like you pretty much have to commit murder in order to get your license taken away.

      I won’t share the particulars, but there was one man whose punishment was that he was no longer allowed to see female patients, and he had to have CCTV (no audio) in his office (patients weren’t undressing; all patients were to be informed that the appointment was video-recorded.) I couldn’t believe they didn’t remove him from the profession…except I also could. The waitlists are literally years long in our region; the alternative was to bar him from the profession and the result would be that some people with very serious illnesses would wait even longer for treatment. Personally, I would probably have voted to have him removed from the profession, if I’d been asked. That said, I recently sent a male relative to a colleague whom I know to be a misogynist (not in a criminal way, just in the usual way,) because he was the only person I could find who was taking patients, and in my clinical judgment my relative was seriously deteriorating. So to an extent, I get the principle behind the decision to allow abuse, even though my own line-in-the-sand is in a different place.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        You don’t even have to be in a life-saving career.

        Look at how much crap top stars in Hollywood can get away with.

    4. Strive to Excel*

      Yes, absolutely.

      In fact, surgeons are more likely to have this happening. It’s similar to how having half of the sickle-cell anemia genes makes you malaria resistant. The same tendencies that let people feel less shame about being total glassbowls are the ones that let them make quick decisions and have the drive to be that good with that sort of cost. This is especially true in specialties with a high death rate (brain surgeon, oncologist, etc) because dealing with that sort of human tragedy tends to break people.

    5. Maggie*

      I mean yeah pretty much. 1 of 7 surgeons in a country holds a lot of power and control over the situation. They’re going to get away with way more. I’m not saying that’s right but it’s absolutely true. Probably a lot of ways you could view that philosophically and thought experiments to be done there. Surgeons are notorious for treating their staff bad and yelling at them and stuff. If someone’s an accomplished surgeon in a rare field they wield the power

    6. Anon123*

      I knew a surgeon who would throw instruments at residents and scrub techs regularly- he asked to be appointed chair of the residency program and was turned down with extreme alacrity. He left in a snit to go to a different hospital, where he is also not in charge of the residency program.

      1. Anon123*

        All this is to say, complaining about misbehavior short of endangering patients or opening up legal liability for discrimination will probably not do a whole lot to a good surgeon’s current employment.

        That doesn’t mean you have to work with them though- there’s lots of jobs in healthcare out there.

    7. Cedrus Libani*

      You don’t have to be in a life-saving career. All you have to do is make sure you’re in the good graces of everyone who has the authority to get rid of you, then you can be as much of a nightmare as you want to be.

      The only real consequence for being a nightmare is that qualified people won’t want to work for you…at least not forever. Unfortunately, people tend to discount the cost unless they’ve experienced it for themselves, so even if the nightmare’s reputation is well-known, there will be plenty of eager replacements for those who leave.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I have seen some rainmakers in law firms get away with stuff that would curl your hair. They aren’t saving lives, but they are bringing in $$$$$.

    9. Credentialer*

      Hospitals have policies for dealing with disruptive physicians. Your Med Exec or Credentials Committee should have a policy for this. The Medical Staff Office would know. Have you filed a report through your normal channels?

  71. anon for this*

    I’m planning to apply for a new position (promotion) within my office, what’s essentially a second-level leadership (albeit not supervisory) position. My main concern is one individual; we’ll call him Jack. Jack is in a first-level leadership position with 2 people directly under him. Jack is a medium-to-low performer who consistently refuses to do one key portion of his job (writing teapot reports), though he does ok on other aspects (like keeping track of incoming requests for teapot reports others are working on and ensuring deadlines are met.) He also hates everything management does & is completely incapable of taking negative feedback, and when provided it, he blows up. This is mostly in private to leadership; the rest of the office doesn’t see it. It’s my understanding he’s been formally reprimanded on at least one occasion, though it has not changed his behavior. This has been going on for about 8 years through a succession of several managers and he has not been fired (v. difficult to do here.)

    Roles haven’t been 100% defined for the new position, but it’s likely I’ll be at least partially responsible for directing Jack’s work (not the primary person over him, but backup if the other 2nd level leadership is out). However, I won’t have any power to issue official punishments or reprimands, or fire him (that’s held at the 3rd level supervisory position in the office- though I can of course help document & work in concert with them on it.)

    I have a couple questions.
    • How do you deal with the balance of needing to be careful about bringing up negative behavior & private disciplinary issues in front of the rest of the team (and not shit-talking a member of your team), with needing to have some kind of an explanation for why leadership is taking certain actions, like not giving him certain work? He’s been complaining that his team isn’t given high-profile tasks. He is very good at seeming reasonable in front of people lower than him in rank, so I’m concerned about how this looks to them (and also suspect, if I do get the job, he’ll start to drag my name through the mud in front of them- hopefully there’s enough positive history there they’ll realize it doesn’t make sense, but I can’t claim I’m looking forward to it.)
    • What other potential options for discipline are there in this situation besides not giving them taskings, official reprimands, and firing? (I’ve never heard of someone being put on a PIP in our org, though allegedly the possibility exists.)
    • How do you manage someone when you know they’re going to blow up at you?

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      In your shoes, I would be very direct in the interview that this is a problem, you have concerns, and that you need more information to decide if this is a deal breaker. I would be asking questions like:
      – I don’t need specifics, but is anything happening behind the scenes to either get Jack’s work up to snuff or replace him? What’s the timeline on that?
      – The person in this role is likely to be in a difficult position of assigning work to Jack but not actually managing him. What kind of backup and support will I have if Jack doesn’t perform his duties?
      – Jack tends to badmouth people when he doesn’t like working with them. How have you handled this in the past? What was the outcome?

      I would also take all of their answers with a skeptical heap of salt. It’s not clear exactly how long this has been going on, but if it’s more than a few months, I’d be very concerned that management is satisfied with the current situation and doesn’t plan to make any changes.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        Interesting advice to raise this in the interview, although since Anon says it’s been going on for 8 years I wonder how candid they’re willing to be.

        I’d go with the middle question but not the other two, if you think they’re not all equally aware of the issues and if you want this position. Or reword them a bit. The balance is between using the interview to report a problem with him vs using the interview to learn whether they’ll have your back and how they expect you to manage.

        Then depending on how they answer it you might be able to follow up on what they say and describe how you would handle something to check whether that will fly. So it’s you demonstrating your approach and they can decide whether they finally want someone with a spine to push back on the behaviors, not you complaining about the behaviors.

        I like Anecdotally Speaking’s advice for coping if you get the position. I’d add “Document document document” and if you have HR, take things to them. Build the file.

        Given the blowup behavior, I’d avoid meeting with him behind closed doors. Even if you need to meet in an office if the door is open other people can hear the yelling. Putting daylight on the behavior, naming it as Anecdotally Speaking suggests, making sure others can’t avoid knowing–maybe you build enough overt rather than covert awareness that they have to act.

        This is tough. Good luck.

    2. AnecdotallySpeaking*

      Supervising without managing is a really tough role to be in, under any circumstances. But if you’re interested in the promotion anyway, I think I would handle Jack as if he were an angry customer, or a boss who yelled (but you’d decided not to leave the job, for whatever reasons).
      Things you can do are:
      – Engage minimally: Jack wants to argue about XYZ, just keep repeating “You’ll have to talk to Manager about that. Today we’re going to do…”
      – If he yells: “I won’t be shouted at. Let me know when you’re ready to discuss professionally”. Then walk away.
      – If he is blowing up about some decision. “XYZ is not up for discussion” or “I can’t talk about this right now – I need to get back to work”, etc. Go back to work and ignore him.

      Basically you want to come across as even-keeled (don’t sound frustrated or angry in return); but you don’t have to let him be abusive to you.

  72. JustaTech*

    Asking the group because my ability to find anything on the internet has failed me this week: what are the job boards for biotech? I really feel like I should know this by now, but I’m still using Indeed and LinkedIn and going nowhere.

  73. Poleybius*

    Is there much point in writing a cover letter for an internal job posting where I already work closely with the hiring manager & team? I’ve been working with them for a couple years now, so I think they know me and my work pretty well, and it’s basically a direct promotion with more responsibility but the same sort of work I currently do. If I should write one, what would I even write to people who already know me and my skills?

    1. MsM*

      They may know you, but they may not remember all of the relevant highlights or skills that you don’t usually get a chance to show off. A cover letter’s a good way to remind them of all that.

  74. David Rose*

    What’s the best way to hunt for a generic corporate job – LinkedIn? Indeed? Glassdoor? Find a recruiter? (How?)

    Just like, anything in communications, or sales, or admin, or anything at all.

    Context: current public librarian.

    1. WellRed*

      For me, I look up companies in my area that I night want to work at. So, like, the health care system, big company x and medium company y and then keyword search in their listings.

    2. Rick Tq*

      I work in IT sales and we get a constant drumbeat about what has to be done to deploy AI at individual companies. One big topic is how to manage the training data, and especially how to manage and curate the reference data sets any AI responses must be based on to be trustworthy.

      Data management sounds to this engineer like something closely related to Library science, you may want to look for those kinds of job listings in the corporate world.

    3. No Such Beast*

      what, pray tell, is a generic corporate job?

      For most jobs LinkedIn and Indeed will be good sources, and many other types of jobs will have other good places – associations, societies, etc are often good bets.

      All of them are only helpful if you’re looking for specific jobs, usually by exact title (you may need to search for several different titles to get all relevant jobs)

      The days of a generic search or browse for jobs that seem interesting went the way of the dodo when classified ads in newspapers disappeared.

  75. Retail Dropout*

    A week ago, I interviewed for a job and got invited to the final round of interviews two days later! However, on the day of the interview, 10 minutes before I was supposed to start (it was virtual), my apartment complex’s internet went down, and it didn’t come back until later on Monday. I immediately emailed the recruiter I was talking to and explained what was happening so we could pivot to a phone interview at the last second. My question is this: Did I leave a bad impression on people or completely doom my chances of working here? I really like this company and would love to work for them after I graduate in May (I’m an undergraduate student in college right now)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I really doubt this torpedoed you. “The entire apartment building lost its Internet” is completely understandable, and you didn’t throw up your hands but suggested a workable alternative.

    2. Maggie*

      This wouldn’t make me write someone off for an interview. That’s not their fault. However next time you could use a hot spot on your phone or just do the video call from your phone.

    3. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Yeah, if anything this probably reflects well on you. You let them know quickly, and suggested another way to do your interview. Sounds like you did great and kept your cool in a tough situation!

  76. Lea*

    I just accepted an offer for a new job (YAY!), which means in one short week, I have to quit my current job I’ve only had for 6 months. I’ve never had such a short stay, but my department is a dumpster fire and my boss is a nightmare of epic proportions.

    My boss is going to be surprised because that’s how she is. Everyone I speak to knows she’s a problem but nothing is ever done, and absolutely nobody else at the company will be surprised.

    Do you have any tips on resigning? She’ll ask why, and I want to tell her at least some version of the truth. But my midwest upbringing isn’t going to allow me to be direct about it.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      How will telling her the truth benefit you, or anyone else? Is she likely to change? Or would it be better to just say “I had an offer I can’t refuse” and go on your way?

    2. MsM*

      I don’t think telling the truth beyond “it wasn’t a good fit” is necessary (and I don’t even know that I’d go that far). If you already know it’s not going to change anything, just focus on getting out with minimum drama.

    3. Generic Name*

      “This opportunity dropped in my lap, and I just couldn’t pass it up”. You have zero reason to give them the unvarnished truth.

    4. Resigning*

      Be as brief as possible, particularly if you give them a written resignation letter. If you want to stay slightly more verbally, feel free, but I’d still keep it generic.

      If you think they’ll be upset about your leaving don’t tell them where you’re going until you start the new job.

      Good luck!

    5. allathian*

      Let your upbringing work in your favor. Just say that you got an offer you couldn’t refuse. Keep your boss out of it, and don’t tell her where you’re going, even if she pushes. Deflect.

  77. Not Greeting a Coworker I’m Uncomfortable With*

    Not Greeting a Coworker I’m Uncomfortable With: This coworker I’ve made numerous complaints about regarding unprofessional conduct (excessive cussing especially in front of customers, juvenile/crass/sexual comments about some of the products we sell, not following corporate dress code, lying about stealing a sale from me, “jokingly” implying another employee is a wh-re for wearing red lipstick) and our manager has swept it all under the rug. Other employees have addressed the same complaints but ultimately gave up earlier on because they see this coworker and the manager as “best friends” (they don’t have prior history with each other) This coworker has complained 2-3 times that I don’t say hi to her, I’ve had a one-on-one with my manager regarding this two months ago (saying I’m creating a hostile environment by not saying hi. I’ve told her I’ll only talk to coworker when it’s work-related) and now she wants to discuss again. My manager has said before this isn’t the kind of team she wants, but I feel it’s what she’s creating by being lenient with one and ignoring complaints from everyone else. At this point I feel that this coworker is the one creating the hostile environment by complaining. I just want to do my tasks. Of course it’s a bonus when I get along with others but one can’t possibly expect to be liked by everyone. I can’t get fired for not greeting a coworker I’m uncomfortable with, but how can I further protect myself from any possible retaliation?

    1. Maggie*

      This workplace sounds too dysfunctional to do anything other than try to leave asap. Clearly they aren’t reasonable or willing to listen. I would start saying hi to the coworker to make things easier and begin a serious job search.

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      You have a small coworker problem and a very large boss problem. You said it yourself: she is creating this environment. It’s not going to get better.

    3. RagingADHD*

      If you live in a right to work jurisdiction, you can be fired for anything, including “not being a team player,” creating a divisive or uncivil atmosphere, being a bad culture fit, or whatever else your boss wants to call it. And if that’s the case, there really isn’t anything you can do to protect yourself other than be really clear with the boss about why this coworker makes you so uncomfortable.

      But that doesn’t seem to have made any difference, so If you need the job and don’t have anything else lined up, it would behoove you to start at least making a general greeting to the office at large. Stubbornly refusing to acknowledge a coworker’s existence doesn’t give you the moral high ground. It just makes both of you look petty.

    4. Kay*

      Have you brought this up to HR or someone above your manager? If not, you and your coworkers need to do so asap.

  78. Pete*

    This week, I’m finally going to try for a meeting with our director about how much work our

    Long story short, over a period of years, the former director of communications was subjected to constructive dismissal. This was done in large part by reassigning communications tasks to us. I’m an assistant manager in a department that is similar to retail, so this isn’t really our job. My former boss (manager of my dept) was a workaholic and wasn’t very firm in saying no to things (but she may not have had much of a choice). Unfortunately, this led to a lot of dysfunction in our department.

    My new-ish manager has never managed people before, nor had any training. She’s nicer than my old boss, but she doesn’t seem to get a few things.
    We’re still getting communications tasks loaded onto us. She even said it’s probably better if we do certain tasks because “at least they’ll get done.”

    I’ve had several conversations with her about how this affects the department. She doesn’t seem to agree, as to her, this is how it’s always been. And of course, I don’t want to undermine her, but I have 150+ hours of overtime accrued (she knows). And ironically, we’ve been reassigned a ton of tasks from yet another department, and she’s livid (but still not speaking up about it).

    I think all this more than warrants a discussion with our grandboss, who seems to just not be aware of how all this has affected the department. She came in asking us to do some more marketing stuff to help “share the workload”, so clearly she just doesn’t know.

    Any tips on how to handle this meeting?

    I have other gripes about my manager (for example, she’s not really managing our staff, not keeping things tidy, not staying on top of emails, not approaching staff training in an organized way, etc.) that I think are in part because she has to much to do. (I mean, so do I, but.) I also don’t want to come across as whiny. Would it be a bad idea to mention these in a 1-on-1 with my grandboss?

    2. kalli*

      Don’t go into it as ‘this is how it was before’. That just doesn’t matter now. Take all the tasks currently assigned to your team, point out how much it is compared to how much time y’all have available, and highlight the imbalance. Ask for priorities and extra resources.

      And for the love of all things good, everyone should keep taking their PTO and sick leave and TOIL.

  79. Fickle Pickle*

    Hope I’m not too late. What are you doing for professional development? I’m reading Show Your Worth by Shelmima Abji. Most of the way through and helpful so far. Feel free to talk about classes, conferences, whatever.

    1. Bike Walk Barb*

      Short list: Reading with discussion group, podcasts, newsletters, conferences, improv classes, talking with a friend who’s in another part of my organization, professional organizations and volunteering/taking on projects with those. Disclaimer: I don’t do all of these all the time!

      Details:

      My whole team is reading Your Brain at Work and discussing it a chapter at a time in staff meetings. This was a suggestion from one of our managers, who reads a ton of management books, and they’re leading the discussions. It’s a good book with helpful insights from neuroscience research and the concepts are showing up in our Teams chat. I think the discussion element helps it sink in more than reading it alone would.

      Over time I’ve read quite a few books like So You Want to Talk about Race by Ijeoma Oluo and have attended virtual conferences on topics around anti-racism. I miss “old Twitter” for the access it gave me to follow and learn from people willing to share their very different life experiences and I haven’t found a space like that to replace it. I don’t want to spend time in Facebook so I haven’t looked for groups or pages there.

      My specific realm has lots of newsletters. I subscribe, have a rule to send them all into one folder, and scan on occasion although not regularly because there are so many. I realized as my role shifted that I need to move my focus from SME content to sources on leading a team so I’ve been adding those.

      I listen to podcasts when I take walk breaks, including the Your Brain at Work one, which covers new concepts beyond the book.

      My job requires me to attend some conferences. I just got back one from one that was genuinely full of good content, which isn’t always the case. If the content is aimed at people who aren’t as familiar with the topics as I am it’s tougher to get truly new knowledge although I’ll get examples and some learning. The hallway conversations are the best part of conferences.

      The most unusual thing I do that I’d label a form of professional development: I’ve been taking improv classes since the beginning of the year. I started with an intro class, thinking it would be fun and different and also sharpen my listening skills. All of the above for sure! And it turned out to be so fun that I went on to a short skits class that has been repeated a few times. This is all through our parks/rec department, super low cost, and we’ve developed an “Improv Friends Club” that gets together for potluck occasionally and does improv in someone’s living room. I definitely have brought concepts into the way I approach work. Alas, the teacher just announced she’s not going to teach another round for a while so I’ll have to find something else and keep going to Friends Club.

      I have a close friend who works for the same organization but in a different role and unit. They’re very good managers, very much in the flavor of AAM. We get together as friends for fun, and we also often end up talking about work, including “how would you approach this” kinds of topics (while maintaining confidentiality on specific people, and it’s really about topics for the organization as a whole, not people in either of our units).

      Professional development for me at this point in my career includes giving back, not only building knowledge. I belong to some professional organizations and am starting to get more active in one, planning to organize meetings in my local area for the chapter that’s headquartered too far away to go to their activities. I also participate in a couple of committees that require me to do research and participate in discussions that take me beyond my organization, including one on equity and another one that’s international.

      1. Fickle Pickle*

        Thanks, this is great. I read a piece recently that said we shouldn’t focus only on learning at conferences, also connections. We all do the eye roll about networking, but sometimes it’s worth sitting out a session to do a one on one with someone. I like that we have conference apps so we can see who is attending and reach out ahead of time to schedule meetings

  80. Banana Pyjamas*

    Just looking for wishes of fortitude. I’m doing a professional communication class, which I sincerely hope to learn from. The class introduction materials include mantras for us to repeat to be positive and an enforced smiling announcement. I keep telling myself I can do anything for only seven weeks, I just need help believing. Just thinking about the mantras and enforced smiling makes me agitated and makes it difficult to focus.

    1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Commiserating on the enforced smiling. What from the class syllabus or introduction are you most looking forward to learning?

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        I’m really excited that the professor focuses on a very barebones communication style, but how to make it warm/make connections. I’m good at barebones, but I struggle with tone, so I hope to really improve there.

  81. illuminate (they/them)*

    I’ve never worked during a weekend at my current office job, but I find myself needing to this weekend (and probably next, too.) I know it’s a bit late, but any advice for staying focused? I don’t mind going at a bit slower pace since I can make it in my own time, but last weekend when I tried to poke at some of these projects, I logged into my VPN and then… did nothing. Which is partly an executive function problem (woohoo for my month-old ADHD diagnosis), but I managed to get things done in my evenings this week; I’m not totally hopeless when I can get down to it. Hoping I can get through it without too much pain…

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      Knowing it was a privilege to be allowed in off hours made it super easy to focus. The same is true for me anytime I’m allowed to com early or stay late. Being in the office with nobody else there is a dream. I also have ADHD and find self starting in a remote environment harder.

    2. Bike Walk Barb*

      Would it work for you to set a timer and give yourself regular breaks to do home things and have some weekend intermixed with the work? Something like 25 minutes of work, 5-10 minutes of a walk around the bock or rotating laundry or getting a snack or coffee refill, another 25 minutes of work. Basically the pomodoro method, and planning to take a longer break after a couple of hours.

      I’d also ask if it’s work you can do on your sofa or at the kitchen table, or if that’s a bad idea. When I’m kind of fried at my desk I find relocating can help me restart. Or go to a coffee shop for the human buzz around you if you find that energizing.

  82. Nonny today*

    Anyone have any job hunt resources for grant writers, specifically? A friend is looking to switch, heavy preference on remote.

  83. kalli*

    A few weeks ago I asked for tips for working with a broken arm. Most of the advice was a bit difficult to implement as it conflicted with my disability and I have mostly spent more time typing with the other hand and relying on Win+c and Win+v. It has largely gone unnoticed as my boss has been away and our staff meeting has been delayed, so I haven’t had to be on-camera with a sling and chunky black arm.

    Does anyone have recommendations for a wrist rest for the mouse? I have tried some styles off Amazon but they just seem to make it worse, but I’m not able to use the mouse without one.

  84. Uninspired test taker*

    Every year, we have to go watch corporate videos and take tests son protecting customer privacy and (a seperate test) on sexual harassment awareness. These are serious subjects so we can’t expect them to be entertaining.

    I have them unengaging and easy (especially because it’s the same questions every year). And now they only run when they are the active window on your machine so I can’t multitask while doing them.

    Are there people out there who enjoy taking these types of tests?

    1. RagingADHD*

      They aren’t there to be enjoyed. They are there to verify compliance.

      I don’t enjoy the videos / tests, enjoy the fact that when my brain is completely burnt out I can still technically accomplish something by zoning out while the video is on.

    2. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      yeah, this is “grin and bear it” time. Most of the new/revised training at my company had these. In addition to the online class I had to do for getting a ticket a few years ago. There were about 20 chapters, and a minimum amount of time you had to spend on each before you could progress to the next.

  85. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

    I have an upcoming second job interview I need to travel for. The job is an entry level higher ed (administrative staff, not tenured faculty) position, and the interviewer let me know up front that the school unfortunately does not cover interview travel for this type of position, but that I’m one of their top choices and they’d really like me to fly out. I know this is likely a red flag, but I desperately need a job (and even if THIS is bad, I know the school itself is reputable) and I liked this job and this team from the screening interview. They have two in-person interview days and have offered me a spot on the second day, and while flights are pretty reasonable for both days, I’ve found that hotels double (or more) in price around the second day.

    My question is twofold:

    1. Should this be a deal-breaker for me in the first place? I have a lot of reasons why I think I should anyways — higher ed is notoriously frugal and this is an easier position to staff so I’m not surprised they won’t pay; I’m getting a little desperate in the job search and don’t want to turn down one where I seem to have a really good shot of getting the job; my parent have offered to pay for the trip so I won’t be out money — but I want a gut-check to see if I’m being reasonable or if there’s something big I’m overlooking.

    2. If I attend the interview, is there a good way to ask for an earlier interview date? My thought is that, if I’m being asked to pay my own way, choosing an earlier date would lessen the burden on me, but I realize it may complicate things on their end.

    1. DefinitiveAnn*

      If your parents are offering to pay, I think you should go. If it’s a reputable employer, and an institutional policy, I wouldn’t see it as a red flag. Red flags would be more at the team/department level, which you will get a chance to see if you go in person.

      1. DefinitiveAnn*

        Oops, hit send to soon. Of course you can ask for the earlier day, explaining the price difference, but don’t make that a deal-breaker, either. How they respond to the ask would be good information. If they are understanding and accommodating, or understanding and apologetic, that’s good info. If they get weird or huffy, that’s good info also.

        1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

          Thank you! I think that makes sense — they are a reputable institution, but for this kind of role I think they probably expected mostly local applicants and didn’t budget for interview travel. I just wanted to make sure my desperation wasn’t blinding me. I’ll decide today if I want to go ahead and book my flight + hotel or if I want to ask the hiring manager about moving the interview date, but I won’t let that be a deal-breaker.

          1. Retired new*

            Not trying to get your hopes up, cause anything could happen, but if they’re willing to interview an out of area person for this job, I think you are a very strong candidate. Our institution wouldn’t even consider an out of area person for a position like this.

  86. Lynn*

    Vent regarding my job as fuel center lead

    I started working at the fuel center in January 2020

    A *major grocery store chain* owns the fuel centers, which are located on the same property as the grocery store

    In the spring of 2021 my employer purchased several hand held devices that are used on the job at every department

    For the fuel center, the hand held devices are used for the daily inventory count and replenishment. 7 days a week the fuel center has to be restocked

    At that time the fuel center sold 1) soft drinks, sport drinks, energy drinks, 24 packs of bottled water and products for your car

    Starting in 2021 store management has not provided coverage for the fuel center clerk when they go inside the grocery store to collect the products, but the city office/city corporate headquarters wants the restocking done 7 days a week. When you finish collecting the products, you press send and a report is sent to the city office/city corporate headquarters

    Store management also does not either collect the products or provide coverage while the fuel center clerk is collecting the products

    The fuel center clerks were on their own regarding restocking the fuel center as well as getting change for the fuel center register, getting cleaning supplies to clean the fuel center, getting receipt tape for the register, taking a break, going to the bathroom and so on

    There has also been an issue with missing hand held devices beginning in 2021. Store managements answer to that issue is to ask every department if you can borrow theirs.

    When I do that I am either told 1) the department does not have one or 2) the department is currently using one

    So, I let the store manager on duty know that and I ask them what do you want me to do about not being able to get one? I am told that restocking needs to be done and that one will be found. When it is found, it is later during my shift.

    But lately there has not been one available, and store management has to give me theirs to use.

    We are also responsible for cleaning the fuel center, putting up price tags, refilling squeegee buckets and so on

    I was promoted to lead in June 2023

    At that time I asked the manager over the fuel center *let’s call her Judy* if we could have additional staff since there were only 3 of us working there. Judy told me that if she did that, then my hours would be cut.

    In November 2023 my employer purchased several big reach in merchandisers for their fuel centers and had them delivered to each fuel center

    The big merchandisers held much more products compared to what was sold at the fuel center in 2021

    The fuel center clerks were still expected to restock the fuel center 7 days a week without any help

    At that time there was an opening shift and a closing shift the majority of the time

    Sometimes there was a mid shift, but this was not consistent

    Starting January this year there is only an opening shift and a closing shift 7 days a week

    From what I heard other fuel centers have the same issue

    The spring of this year Judy was no longer the manager over the fuel center. Joe was now over the fuel center

    Starting the beginning if October this year the grocery store that is located next to the fuel center was getting ready for a grand re-opening due to a renovation on 10/18/24

    One of the assistant managers, *let’s call her Kim* came to the fuel center towards the beginning of October when I worked the opening shift and told me the following

    There has not been much oversight from store management regarding the fuel center
    There has not been much communication from store management
    The big merchandiser that stores 1) snacks, 2) jugs of water, 3) cases of water, 4) and products for your car is not arranged properly regarding the products *She wants the product on the packaging to match the product on the price tag or shelf tag; for products in the wrong place either find the corresponding price tag or shelf tag; if you cannot do that, take the product off the shelf and transfer the product back to the store using the hand held device. The correct products may need to be ordered as well using the hand held device
    And to let the fuel center staff know all that, which I did

    Kim returned the following day when I worked the closing shfit and reprimanded me for the above not being done even though I told her I informed the fuel center staff

    Kim told me I had to all of that on my shift that day, which I did

    I also let the fuel center staff know what happened

    I also ordered product for that merchandiser, which i let Kim know

    On Wednesday of this week one of the fuel center staff told me that someone from the city office/city corporate headquarters came to the fuel center and noticed there was no-one at the fuel center because she was inside the store collecting the products

    That employee then came to the grocery store and asked the store manager on duty *let’s call him John* why there was not a mid shift

    The employee told me that John told her to stop what she was doing and to return to the fuel center

    I opened Thursday of this week, and I noticed that for the big reach in merchandiser, the products were either 1) in the correct place or 2) not in the correct place.

    When I asked John about that, he told me the following 1) there cannot be any holes regarding the products in thar reach in merchandiser, 2) not all the

    Thursday of this week the regional manager over the fuel *let’s call him Mike* came to the fuel center while I was working the opening shift. I was refilling the squeegee buckets and putting up price tags when he came

    Mike told me the following while he was there

    Is there a mid shift? I told him the last time there was a mid shift was in 2023
    Do you have help regarding restocking the fuel center? I told him no and that the opener does that 7 days a week
    More cleaning has to be done for the grand re-opening; I told him that I did some cleaning that morning but with only 3 of us we do our best with what we are given
    That we need more help

    I was off on the day of the grand re-opening Friday 10/18

    I opened the fuel center today, and when I went inside to get a hand held device, John told me the following… 1) do not worry about finding one, 2) we will address the issue tomorrow, and 3) go back to the fuel center. John seemed irritated at that. So, I left the store without asking him why

    I found out from Joe that they *I am guessing the city office/city corporate office* does not want anyone leaving the fuel center unattended while collecting the products.

    So, I e-mailed Joe a recap of his conversation with me as well as carbon copying John, Kim and the store manager

  87. Lynn*

    Vent regarding my job as fuel center lead

    I started working at the fuel center in January 2020

    A *major grocery store chain* owns the fuel centers, which are located on the same property as the grocery store

    In the spring of 2021 my employer purchased several hand held devices that are used on the job at every department

    For the fuel center, the hand held devices are used for the daily inventory count and replenishment. 7 days a week the fuel center has to be restocked

    At that time the fuel center sold 1) soft drinks, sport drinks, energy drinks, 24 packs of bottled water and products for your car

    Starting in 2021 store management has not provided coverage for the fuel center clerk when they go inside the grocery store to collect the products, but the city office/city corporate headquarters wants the restocking done 7 days a week. When you finish collecting the products, you press send and a report is sent to the city office/city corporate headquarters

    Store management also does not either collect the products or provide coverage while the fuel center clerk is collecting the products

    The fuel center clerks were on their own regarding restocking the fuel center as well as getting change for the fuel center register, getting cleaning supplies to clean the fuel center, getting receipt tape for the register, taking a break, going to the bathroom and so on

    There has also been an issue with missing hand held devices beginning in 2021. Store managements answer to that issue is to ask every department if you can borrow theirs.

    When I do that I am either told 1) the department does not have one or 2) the department is currently using one

    So, I let the store manager on duty know that and I ask them what do you want me to do about not being able to get one? I am told that restocking needs to be done and that one will be found. When it is found, it is later during my shift.

    But lately there has not been one available, and store management has to give me theirs to use.

    We are also responsible for cleaning the fuel center, putting up price tags, refilling squeegee buckets and so on

    I was promoted to lead in June 2023

    At that time I asked the manager over the fuel center *let’s call her Judy* if we could have additional staff since there were only 3 of us working there. Judy told me that if she did that, then my hours would be cut.

    In November 2023 my employer purchased several big reach in merchandisers for their fuel centers and had them delivered to each fuel center

    The big merchandisers held much more products compared to what was sold at the fuel center in 2021

    The fuel center clerks were still expected to restock the fuel center 7 days a week without any help

    At that time there was an opening shift and a closing shift the majority of the time

    Sometimes there was a mid shift, but this was not consistent

    Starting January this year there is only an opening shift and a closing shift 7 days a week

    From what I heard other fuel centers have the same issue

    The spring of this year Judy was no longer the manager over the fuel center. Joe was now over the fuel center

    Starting the beginning if October this year the grocery store that is located next to the fuel center was getting ready for a grand re-opening due to a renovation on 10/18/24

    One of the assistant managers, *let’s call her Kim* came to the fuel center towards the beginning of October when I worked the opening shift and told me the following

    There has not been much oversight from store management regarding the fuel center
    There has not been much communication from store management
    The big merchandiser that stores 1) snacks, 2) jugs of water, 3) cases of water, 4) and products for your car is not arranged properly regarding the products *She wants the product on the packaging to match the product on the price tag or shelf tag; for products in the wrong place either find the corresponding price tag or shelf tag; if you cannot do that, take the product off the shelf and transfer the product back to the store using the hand held device. The correct products may need to be ordered as well using the hand held device
    And to let the fuel center staff know all that, which I did

    Kim returned the following day when I worked the closing shfit and reprimanded me for the above not being done even though I told her I informed the fuel center staff

    Kim told me I had to all of that on my shift that day, which I did

    I also let the fuel center staff know what happened

    I also ordered product for that merchandiser, which i let Kim know

    On Wednesday of this week one of the fuel center staff told me that someone from the city office/city corporate headquarters came to the fuel center and noticed there was no-one at the fuel center because she was inside the store collecting the products

    That employee then came to the grocery store and asked the store manager on duty *let’s call him John* why there was not a mid shift

    The employee told me that John told her to stop what she was doing and to return to the fuel center

    I opened Thursday of this week, and I noticed that for the big reach in merchandiser, the products were either 1) in the correct place or 2) not in the correct place.

    When I asked John about that, he told me the following 1) there cannot be any holes regarding the products in thar reach in merchandiser, 2) not all the product was delivered, and 3) so product was restocked here there and everywhere.

    Thursday of this week the regional manager over the fuel *let’s call him Mike* came to the fuel center while I was working the opening shift. I was refilling the squeegee buckets and putting up price tags when he came

    Mike told me the following while he was there

    Is there a mid shift? I told him the last time there was a mid shift was in 2023
    Do you have help regarding restocking the fuel center? I told him no and that the opener does that 7 days a week
    More cleaning has to be done for the grand re-opening; I told him that I did some cleaning that morning but with only 3 of us we do our best with what we are given
    That we need more help

    I was off on the day of the grand re-opening Friday 10/18

    I opened the fuel center today, and when I went inside to get a hand held device, John told me the following… 1) do not worry about finding one, 2) we will address the issue tomorrow, and 3) go back to the fuel center. John seemed irritated at that. So, I left the store without asking him why

    I found out from Joe that they *I am guessing the city office/city corporate office* does not want anyone leaving the fuel center unattended while collecting the products.

    So, I e-mailed Joe a recap of his conversation with me as well as carbon copying John, Kim and the store manager

    1. Lynn*

      Joe also told me that we *I am guessing store management* are looking into training someone else to provide coverage at the fuel center.

      I also included that information in my e-mail recap to Joe.

      I am not sure what to believe now

        1. Lynn*

          How would this group handle the entire situation?

          From a management standpoint

          From an employee standpoint

  88. Working Class Lady*

    Definitely say something!
    It’s unprofessional and not okay to treat your staff this way, especially in front of clientele.

    It’s also an indicator of poor leadership. Good leaders do not treat their staff like that – Period.

    Most of all, this is an environment where children are present and are taking in everything that goes on. She is setting a terrible example for them.

  89. Nicosloanica*

    I can’t remember when comments close on this, hope I can still get an answer or two: if you were a hiring manager, and you asked the “so why are you looking to leave your current position” question, how would you feel about the answer “there’s been a lot of turnover and I’m finding it hard to keep up the momentum of my work,” if said in a pleasantly neutral kind of way? This is my honest answer, but I’ve probably been there long enough that I could just say “new challenges” like they tell you. I know that any amount of bad-mouthing your current workplace, no matter how atrocious they are, doesn’t sound good in an interview.

    1. Retired now*

      I think I understand why you would respond that way, but I have a hard time connecting up how a lot of turnover would make it difficult for you to keep up your own work. I might reframe it as that you’re looking for a bit more stability in the workplace? Focus on what you’re looking for rather than what you’re leaving from.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I wouldn’t phrase it like that. Say ‘our companies had a lot of turnover and the restructuring of job roles has made me realize I want something a bit different (be specific here if you can) like (something related to job you’re applying for). ‘ Like I want something more client facing which is why I was excited to see your opening for customer technical support etc

Comments are closed.