coworker keeps snarking on the way I fold paper, “non-religious” holiday attire, and more

by Alison Green on November 26, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworker keeps snarking on the way I fold paper

I work in a public library. One of my duties is to fold paper, such as brochures, newsletters, pamphlets, etc. My coworker whose responsibility it is to create, edit, and print those documents will hand me a large stack and then be overwhelmed by the urge to criticize my technique. I use a small plastic tool (shaped like the old tongue depressors, like a large popsicle stick) to smooth the edge of the paper to create a sharp fold. I have tried to explain to her multiple times that using my finger creates microabrasions, hurts my skin, and eventually leads to callouses.

But she will say, “You NEED that?” when I go get the tool and, “Well, I think using your finger is fine” and when I explain why it isn’t, she gives a big exaggerated head tilt, squint, and an incredulous “REALLY?” as if I’ve told her porcupine meat is delicious. She cannot fathom that I don’t want to use my finger, so she gives a soap opera level head shake of disbelief like you would to someone wearing a bikini in Walmart.

I’m baffled as to why she cares how I get the job done and I am tired of receiving the stink eye over something so inane. How do I shut down her sneered lip and snark? I just want to fold paper without bruising my fingertips!

You can try saying, “You know, I’ve explained why but you comment every time. Do you have a concern about this that you haven’t articulated? And if not, can we put the topic to rest?”

If that doesn’t work, then all you can really do is say in a pointedly exhausted and/or bored tone, “Yep, this is what I prefer to use.” Put that on repeat and she’ll hopefully give up in time. If not, feel free to say at some point, “Good lord, we’ve covered this over and over. It’s weird that you can’t let it go.”

No one would blame you if you sharpened that tool into a pointy weapon.

2. “Non-religious” holiday attire

I just got an invitation to an office holiday celebration that says, “There will also be prizes for those who wear holiday attire (nothing religious or offensive).” Am I right to feel that (1) winter holiday attire that isn’t religious is a borderline oxymoron, and (2) it’s hypocritical to say that on an invitation that includes a Christmas tree and talks about playing a gift-giving game?

Yes. It’s the old “as long as it’s not overt religious imagery like a nativity scene, it’s secular!” game that some people like to play.

The things they’re envisioning as “not religious” likely include Santa, Christmas trees, and other markers of Christmas — which, as elements of a Christian holiday, don’t qualify as “not religious” to many of us. It assumes a cultural identification with Christmas that erases many people of other faiths (or of no faith). It’s a problem. A much longer discussion of this is here.

(Also, since this always comes up: the right question is not “Can I find people who celebrate Christmas who consider these things secular?” but rather, “Are there large numbers of people who do feel erased when symbols of Christmas are treated as secular?” The answer to that is yes.)

3. Why don’t companies believe you’ll do what you say until you actually do it?

Earlier this year, I changed jobs within my organization. I work 32 hours a week and this new job was only for 24 hours a week, so it was decided I would still do my old job for eight hours a week. I wasn’t thrilled with this, because the reason I wanted to change jobs was because of an ongoing conflict with my (old) manager. If I hadn’t been able to change jobs within the same company, I would left as soon as I found a new job elsewhere.

My new manager is aware of this situation. She promised me she would look into getting the higher-ups approval for increasing the hours of the new job to 32. I told her that if it didn’t look like this was going to happen anytime soon, I would rather change my contract to 24 hours and look into some freelancing to supplement my income.

After doing the new job for six months, I had my evaluation and in that I was told that higher-ups did not approve of changing my new job to 32 hours and wouldn’t for at least another six months. Upon hearing this, I told my boss I wanted to go to 24 hours, because I no longer wanted to deal with my old manager anymore. She asked if I was sure and I told her I was.

The next day, my manager called me to tell me that she had been back to the big boss to talk to him once more and now he had agreed to change the new job to 32 hours. I’m happy, of course. But why did I pretty much need to threaten to leave to make this happen? They knew I wasn’t happy, they knew I would stop working for my old manager one way or another. Why didn’t they take that seriously enough?

I hope you can give me some insight in why companies operate in this way, because I really believe this isn’t a unique situation.

A few reasons: first, sometimes employers assume that when push comes to shove, you won’t really follow through on the thing you’re saying you’ll do (because it’ll be harder than you think to leave or find freelancing work, or at least will take a while and things might change meanwhile, or because you can’t possibly really mean it). A lot of threats to do X feel vague/amorphous until the situation becomes “I am now doing X,” at which point they have to take it seriously. I’m not saying this is reasonable — it’s not — just that it’s common.

Second, companies have limited time/energy/attention and sometimes other things are just higher priorities to deal with (legitimately or otherwise), until the issue becomes more pressing because you are making a change right now.

Third, it’s possible that your boss didn’t tell her own higher-ups that you said you would decrease your hours if they couldn’t get you 32 in the new job. She might have thought it wasn’t necessary to include that, or that her boss would bristle at hearing it, or that it introduced a risk of them cutting your hours to less than 32, or who knows what — but she might have just called it wrong, even while thinking she was acting in your best interests.

4. Do employers have to provide cups for water?

I work in a large office job. We have water dispensers that employees can get water from, but a few years ago they eliminated paper cups as a means of “going green” and instead gave every employee a reusable metal water bottle. Over the years (especially during Covid when nobody was in the office for two years), some of the bottles have been misplaced, and some executive coordinators were pressured to give them to their officers who couldn’t be bothered to pick them up because they were too busy. The end result is that some employees have to either pay for plastic water bottles (hardly environmentally friendly) or buy their own reusable one. New employees are given reusable bottles upon onboarding, but existing ones can’t get a new one unless they pay for it.

Is this allowed? To be clear, we are working in a climate-controlled environment, not a outdoor job site, and on the rare occasion the A/C fails, we are allowed to work from home, but we are in the office for at least eight hours a day and need to drink water at some point.

The OSHA regulation on this isn’t 100% clear on whether you can be required to provide your own drinking vessel (which is functionally what’s happening for people who lose their original bottles). Employers have to provide water, but beyond that it’s hazier. OSHA does say, “The employer shall dispense drinking water from a fountain, a covered container with single-use drinking cups stored in a sanitary receptacle, or single-use bottles.” I suspect your situation would be covered by “drinking water from a fountain” (meaning they’re not violating the law by not providing cups), but you’d need to check with OSHA to be sure.

5. Will I get in trouble for not disclosing a disability in my job application?

I’m deep into my job search and, pretty consistently, I have to check a box regarding my disability status before submitting an application. The text usually reads, “No, I do not have a disability and I have not had one in the past.” I have an “invisible disability,” so the truthful answer would be to say “yes,” but I keep reading horror stories about discrimination against people who disclose their status to employers. I previously thought that the purpose of this question was to inform diverse hiring practices, but I’m not sure anymore.

Could I get in trouble for not disclosing my disability status prior to hiring? I have to work from home due to my need for accommodations, so I could hide my condition pretty well. I just don’t know what I’ll do when I have a flare-up that affects how I show up to work. I don’t like lying, but I need a job—now.

If you are in the U.S., you are not legally obligated to disclose a disability to an employer before they hire you (or afterwards, for that matter, if you’re not asking for accommodations) and you can’t be required to or be penalized for not doing it.

They’re most likely asking because companies with more than 100 employees or with government contracts over a certain dollar amount are required by law to report the demographic makeup of their applicants and employees to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (in aggregate, not individually). However, answering is voluntary, you can’t be penalized for not answering, and if you do answer the employer can’t allow your answer to negatively affect your application. In fact, the law requires that the information be stored separately from your application.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Rules of engagement for #2: We’re not going to debate (for the umpteenth year!) whether or not you personally consider some trappings of Christmas to be secular. If you object to that rule, please pass up commenting on this post. Thank you. (Meanwhile, you can read more here if you’re interested.)

  2. The Minotaur*

    #1– Bone folders (often made of plastic or bamboo these days) are an old and common tool. I’m surprised that someone who works in a library would be baffled by one. I would stop giving this coworker an explanation and either ignore them or tell them that I refuse to have this conversation anymore.

    1. Seal*

      As a longtime librarian, that was my first thought as well. I’d be tempted to respond with that to their unenlightened coworker: “You’ve worked in a library for x number of years and you don’t know what a bone folder is? Wow.” Sounding as shocked as possible, of course.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I think the best thing to do with this coworker is ignore/grey rock her. She sounds like she really loves drama and is trying really hard to start some.

        1. Bossy*

          I would grey rock her after making a comment like Seal suggested to make sure she knows I think she’s a tool.

        2. ScruffyInternHerder*

          I’m having a day where I’m matching energy so I’d probably do Alison’s last suggestion first, along with “….are you so bored that you keep having to bring this up? How interesting…”.

          I do not necessarily suggest doing this.

      3. hereforthecomments*

        I’d never heard of a bone folder or seen one until I worked in a library. A nice co-worker gave me one when she saw me folding a stack of newsletters. The cataloging department had them all over their work tables, I noticed later.

    2. Emmy Noether*

      I discovered bone folders late and I think a lot of people don’t know about them. Which is a shame, because they’re a cheap, small, indestructible, and extremely useful tool. They also have uses in sewing as well as pretty much all paper crafts (and I’m sure other crafts too).

      I think it’s great that LW is prepared and has the right tool for the job instead of unnecessarily hurting her hands. It also makes sharper, more professional looking folds, so there’s that.

      Would that colleague also make fun of that other LW for using a cup or bottle to drink water instead of just cupping their hands?

      1. KatieP*

        Long time card maker and scrapbooker, here. Can confirm, bone folders are well-known in paper crafts. I’ve probably got a half dozen of them laying around my craft space.

        I also worked in a professional print shop a few (20+) years ago. The edges of those pamphlets would be expected to be creased with a bone folder or a roller (looks like a brayer). Creasing with your finger would be considered unprofessional as the crease produced isn’t as crisp.

        1. LunaLena*

          Yeah, this. I worked in two different print shops and we always used a ruler or even a credit card to do the folds, otherwise it wouldn’t produce a crisp edge. As a graphic designer who has mostly worked in print design, I’m surprised the co-worker doesn’t know this. Even if you have a folding machine for mass orders, you’re probably going to do at least a few folding jobs by hand, especially if you’re just doing a mock-up or proof.

        2. Sweet 'N Low*

          Also worked in a print shop for awhile and even when you COULD fold things with just your fingers (like if it was already creased/scored and just needed to be folded), you would not want to. Sure, you can get away with it if it’s just one or two, but after the hundred-and-somethingth fold your fingers get raw and you start questioning how many folds it takes before you wear off your fingerprints.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        I LOVE my folding bone! I discovered it in the 90s when I had to fold brochures every week. I’m into origami and developed a requirement for crisp folds in all applications.
        Surprisingly, marketing teams I worked with never knew about it. I’m guessing since they never folded thousands of papers at a time, they never considered the damage it does to the nails.
        Every once in a while, a marketing coordinator would stop by my desk and ask for “a folding tool I was told you have,” like it was a magical spell only I knew. They would then look upon it with amazement.

        1. jotab*

          Magical spell indeed! I’m thrilled to learn about this amazing device. I will be so happy to get mine and stop wearing out my finger. Delighted to hear about this!

      3. Lily Rowan*

        Oh, that made me laugh! “What, you’re too good to drink out of your hands like the rest of us???”

      4. Dahlia*

        Honestly, when I don’t have one, I’ll use either the handles of my scissors or even a pen or marker. It just makes a nicer fold!

      5. Chirpy*

        I always used a pen to fold paper, back when I worked in an office. An actual bone folder would have been nice, as you kind of had to pick the right pen to avoid rubbing the finish of the pen off onto the paper (those super cheap plain Bic pens work, pencils do not, etc)

    3. Observer*

      I’m surprised that someone who works in a library would be baffled by one.

      I didn’t know they had a name. But, I share your surprise to some extent. It is SOOO odd to me, that I wonder if she really is “surprised” or she’s pulling a power play on the LW.

      1. Myrin*

        It’s definitely some sort of power play, even if to just convey “lol I think you’re a weirdo”. There’s no way she’s been actually baffled by this after like the first two times she saw OP and OP even gave an explanation!

        1. Allonge*

          Yes, the information to process here is pretty simple, so coworker has some kind of Issue with OP or with these folding tools, not the concept.

          OP, feel free to get harsher about your answers here – the tool is there for a reason, and even if it’s convenience only, well, convenience is important!

          1. Discombobulated and Tired*

            I agree – this seems like coworker’s issue isn’t with the bone folder. To Alison’s suggested wording “Good lord, we’ve covered this over and over. It’s weird that you can’t let it go.” I’d be tempted to add: “Are you ok?”

        2. RabbitRabbit*

          Agreed. Some people just have to poke and poke about things that don’t even affect them.

          I had a former colleague who would do that about me not wearing a jacket to go to a meeting in a different building. We would attend the meeting together weekly and so for basically Octoberish through April, at more meetings than not for a few years, I would get the “where’s your coat?/why didn’t you bring a coat?/I don’t understand why you don’t wear a coat” question variant from her in front of our fellow board members. The other building was less than a block from the building where I worked and I hate having to juggle carrying multiple things going between the buildings on our campus. But explanations of that, about how I was actually fine, etc., trying to ignore it, never made an impact.

          (It might not have been the most professional response, but when I finally resorted to ‘jokingly’ telling her “I’m fine, mom…” that shut it down forever.)

          1. Seashell*

            It’s your decision what to wear, but you don’t have to juggle anything extra if a jacket is actually on your body for the duration of your walk. If you gave her that explanation, maybe that is what confused her.

            1. RabbitRabbit*

              I said I hate having my coat hang on the back of my chair during the meeting (risking knocking it down due to slick fabric).

              I said I find it awkward to deal with, grabbing my coat and work bag and leftovers from lunch AND clean up after myself (when she never did) to rush out of the room before the next meeting started.

              I said I’d rather not.

              I told her it’s one extra thing to remember that I didn’t want to.

              I told her that I’m in a rebellious phase.

              I told her that the cold doesn’t bother me anyway.

              I told her I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine. It’s fine.

              I hated having to justify why, when I was the youngest woman on the board meeting that she felt like she had to openly act like a mom and couldn’t just drop it.

              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                “The cold doesn’t bother me anyway”…
                I hope that was when Frozen was at the height of its popularity so she couldn’t avoid knowing the song reference!

              2. Observer*

                I hated having to justify why, when I was the youngest woman on the board meeting that she felt like she had to openly act like a mom and couldn’t just drop it.

                The thing is that she *did* absolutely need to drop it. But you did *not* have to justify yourself. There is a line that “an invitation is not a summons” / “an invitation is not an invoice.” The idea being that an invitation is something that does not create an obligation for you. The same thing applies to a question or comment.

                She asked? She made a comment? That’s *her* problem, not your. And, to be honest I think your response calling her Mom was a lot more professional that I suspect I would have been in your situation. Because I would probably have either snapped, told her it’s not her problem or asked her why it’s her business.

            2. I guess my entire company was the real work wife the whole time.*

              The entire trip isn’t just the walk — you have to deal with your coat once inside and then on the walk back. That’s juggling an extra thing for the entire duration of the trip.

              1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

                And in cold climates, buildings are often kept very warm, so you have to swelter between going indoors and arriving at where you’re going and then sit against the fabric the whole time you’re there.

                1. goddessoftransitory*

                  Anybody who’s sweated buckets or hauled a puffer coat through a mall trying to shop in winter knows this all too well.

            3. wordswords*

              I mean, it also doesn’t matter, though? If I think maybe my colleague is unaware that there’s a coat closet where we’re going, or otherwise seems to be missing some bit of factual information that might affect their choices, I might mention that. But otherwise, I’m not going to try to logic them out of their own coat preferences, even if the calculation doesn’t make a ton of sense to me. Certainly not repeatedly!

              Even if secretly I’m always like “they never wear a coat and I do NOT get why, their explanation the one time I asked made zero sense to me,” the fact remains that LW has more information than I do about what they personally find annoying to juggle/wear/haul. I’m not the arbiter of that.

              1. MsM*

                The people who keep bringing it up don’t get that, though. It’s weird to them, therefore it must be objectively weird and people should stop disrupting their worldview by behaving like it’s not.

                1. littlehope*

                  A lot of people do just get very upset when other people do something differently from how they do it. It’s a fairly standard human impulse, I think, but learning how to override it when it Does Not Matter (and how to judge when it Does Not Matter) is a pretty important part of the Being A Good Human skillset. Unfortunately it’s one a lot of people never acquire.

              2. RabbitRabbit*

                Right? It was just across a courtyard! Around a minute of transit time or less when choosing the closest doors of the respective buildings. It would almost take more time to put on the coat and take it off than it would to walk briskly to the building, which I always did. I just decided I literally did not care about a bit of chill for a short time and it would perk me up before/after a long lunchtime meeting. I frequently even wore suits so it’s not like I was in a sleeveless shell top.

                In college in Wisconsin I worked in a lab with a woman from Hawaii; she wore shorts literally year-round because she adored the cold and the changing seasons so much. Her biggest compromise was occasional ‘shell’/windbreaker style pants in the absolute worst weather (which was rare by her standards) and would zip out of them once inside. My reaction to her was that she was braver than I am.

                1. Slow Gin Lizz*

                  I totally agree with you on that! And what I hate about winter is not so much the cold but the fact that I get all warm and comfy in my winterwear when I’m outside and then as soon as I go inside I immediately overheat and have to take off my coat. I’d much rather not have to deal with that, thank you very much.

              3. Sweet 'N Low*

                That’s the beauty of life (or at least it should be): we can all have our own preferences, even if they don’t make logical sense to anyone else. As long as you aren’t hurting anyone, you can have whatever weird reason you want for your innocuous preferences. Sometimes it can be interesting to know the reason behind people’s preferences! But it doesn’t matter.

                I say all that to defend my not-at-all-logical for not wearing a coat past February, regardless of the temperature, which is that I’m tired of it being winter and am stubbornly refusing to act like it’s still cold.

          2. Kat*

            Omg that’s brilliant. I’m envisioning you doing a dramatic eye roll like an annoyed teen when you said it too :)

          3. The OG Sleepless*

            Where I live, you can usually get away without a winter coat for a short distance across a parking lot or courtyard, and I go without for the same reason. It’s just one more thing to have to deal with once you get inside.

        3. Antilles*

          Exactly. If this was pure curiosity, she would have asked once, nodded at the answer, and left it at that. Even if she still felt the tool was kind of dumb, she wouldn’t be making a dramatic head shake and harping on it like this.

        4. Typity*

          Control thing; she wants to badger LW into changing *something.* It’s territory-marking behavior.

          If LW gives up the bone folder, it’ll be “Didn’t I tell you that you didn’t need that thing?” Probably forever. New employees will be told the tale: “LW used to use this silly tool for folding paper, but I told her she didn’t need it!”

          I hope this library has an employee gift exchange — LW could give the lady a bone folder.

        1. metadata minion*

          I’ve also seen them called “plastic fingers” and “fids”, fyi, though I’m pretty sure bone folder is the most common term.

          1. Typity*

            Seeing it said so often — it sounds a bit like a horror movie: “Stay out of the library tonight, Chad! It’s the Night of the Bone Folder!”

              1. Princess Sparklepony*

                They used to be made of bone. Now you can still get ones made of bone, but they also are made of plastic. I think the purists feel the bone gives a nicer finish.

            2. MigraineMonth*

              Yeah, it kind of sounds like a creature that folds your bones up into a convenient carrying-case size.

      3. emmelemm*

        Right? I can see how a general member of the public, especially under the age of say, 50 or 60, would not be familiar with such a tool. But someone who works in a library? A paper-heavy environment?!

    4. allathian*

      Yeah, the coworker’s obnoxious. I’d respond with dripping sarcasm, I’m done taking the high road with people like this. You get to question my methods once, and once only. After that I’m done treating unprofessional questioning of how I prefer to do things in a professional manner.

      2. Trillian*

        I’d quickly reach the point where I stopped responding at all. Just didn’t hear her, the way I don’t hear street harrassers. Way less stress than having to come up with answers.

      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Seriously!
        “Yup, I’m using a tool meant for folding large quantities of paper to fold large quantities of paper.”
        “If you’d rather put 3 folds into 500 sheets of paper with your finger you’re welcome to take over.”
        “Shocking how people have different preferences isn’t it?”

        1. honeygrim*

          Yeah, I’d want to say something like, “Well, if you want to use YOUR finger to fold these, go right ahead.”

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        I was tempted to lean into it. (friendly smile, upbeat tone, possibly to the point of manic) “Okay, time for that thing you do about the noble and ancient art of paper folding without tools, like acoustic guitar! Then I can start!” Like she has convinced you that the of you have this adorable little ritual.

        1. Bird names*

          Honestly, I’m rather charmed by the visual:
          LW readies her paper stack, the bone folder and waits until her coworker looks in her direction and gestures at her with a serene smile: “Alright, I’m ready, please make your comment so I can start my work.”

          Would it realistically get the coworker to reflect? Probably not. But I love low key ways of pointing out nonsense like this.

    5. Ellis Bell*

      +1, on just stopping with the explanations. As Captain Awkward says, reasons are for reasonable people. If I’m picturing the patronising body language OP is describing correctly, all I would be willing to respond with is either “mmm” or a withering stare.

    6. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      I (briefly) worked for Royal Mail. I’d have been delighted to have such a tool! This is actually the first time I’ve heard of them.

      Personally I’d go with a single raised eyebrow and a ‘btw this conversation is really boring’ but I’m in a bad mood today.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I’m going to go buy one. I suck at folding. You’re telling me there’s a thing that would help me keep my lines straight that I could have been using this whole time?

        2. Usurper Cranberries*

          The bone folder mostly crisps up the folds. If you’re having trouble with getting the lines straight, look for a “paper scoring board” which typically includes both a bone folder and a board with straight grooves – you put the paper in the corner of the board, use the bone folder to score a perfectly straight line following the groove, then use the bone folder to finish the fold neatly.

    7. Ann Jansi*

      Agree. Worked in a printing shop when I was young. I would have been scolded to only use my finger since that would leave a sloppy end product. Maybe there is something on YouTube that the OP can send to this annoying coworker

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Using your finger is fine when you’re folding one letter for your own purposes – when LW is folding a *stack* of papers *for work* it’s vastly better to use a tool both for consistency and for comfort. I think LW can lean into the idea of doing things properly and professionally, with increasing levels of passive aggression and/or snark as necessary.

        1. Bobbi*

          This!! I used to work in a library, and I learned VERY quickly that, while a finger is fine for folding a few sheets of paper, it gets painful quickly when you have to fold a whole stack of booklists! I used to We didn’t have a bone folder at the desk, so I used one of those little plastic rulers – it made a really crisp edge.

        2. Guacamole Bob*

          I wonder if the colleague has never actually done large amounts of repetitive paper-based work (folding, stuffing envelopes, collating, sticking labels on things, etc.). Paper becomes pretty hard on your hands when doing large batches of these tasks, and bone folders, envelope moisteners, rubber finger covers, etc. were all developed precisely for these purposes to make the tasks easier and reduce the paper cuts, dryness, soreness, etc. that can develop. Electric staplers can seem kind of dumb if you only staple things for occasional personal use (and don’t have arthritis or joint problems), but if you have to collate materials for 500 conference attendees they’re a big help.

          I have handled many mailings and newsletters in my time but did not know that bone folders were a thing. But it’s a pretty obvious function and I used to find an appropriate pen or small ruler or something for folding.

          1. Observer*

            I wonder if the colleague has never actually done large amounts of repetitive paper-based work

            I really don’t think that this is actually relevant. I mean, you *are* completely correct that this is the smart way to do it, for all the reasons you say. But even if the LW were doing something genuinely weird, the CW would be wildly out of line and *far* weirder. The idea of continuing this whole theater over something that makes absolute no difference to her is just bizarre.

      2. Sharpie*

        I tend to use my nail rather than the pad of my finger to press in creases when folding paper and don’t think the result is unprofessional. Having said that, if I were to regularly be folding a stack of papers, I would absolutely want a bone folder to use to do it. But using fingers alone isn’t inherently unprofessional.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          This is what I was doing until the day I left a red streak of nail polish on a folder.

          Not wet nail polish, but the dry “starting to wear off” streak sent me back to the bone folder.

          (I also stopped wearing nail polish during the work week until I left that archives job.)

          1. Carol the happy*

            I once left a red streak folding a crapload of brochures into 3s so they’d fit in business envelopes.

            Unfortunately it was blood from a nasty paper cut. Hurt like hell, and took forever to heal.

            I would say to this idiot, “Bone Folder. It’s a paper folding tool, newbie. Google it.”

            1. London Calling*

              I’ve done just that and found that

              a. bone folders have a wiki page
              b. there are YouTube vids showing the multitude of uses a bone folder has.

              Kudos on your patience, OP. I’d have killed her by now.

        2. Kit*

          I actually wore the side of my thumbnail down when I was doing repetitive paper-folding as part of my “other duties as assigned” reception work, years ago – then I swapped to using a tool (actually just the side of a concealed-blade letter opener, I wasn’t aware of bone folders). I’d learned that my nail provided a much sharper fold than fingertips years ago, doing origami, but it turns out that even the tiny amount of friction involved will wear down keratin if you do it often enough, much like the proverbial bird’s beak on the granite mountain.

      3. KatieP*

        +1. Same, worked in a professional print shop a few decades ago. Anyone using their finger would have been instructed to use either the roller, or a bone folder. Anything else looked unprofessional.

        1. Grizabella the Glaimour Cat*

          Having been a professional librarian (retired now), I can attest that 1) using a bone folder to fold paper is much more professional and gives a much better/crisper result than using one’s fingers, and 2) that *library* coworker is being ridiculous.

      4. NotAnotherManager!*

        Same! One of my first jobs was at a printing shop, and, because I was younger and not allowed to use some of the heavier machinery, I tended to be the go-to person for folding. We absolutely never used our finger – the tools created a crisper crease and, while using your finger for a small number was fine, that would be SO painful if you did an entire job by hand. (I also worked with someone whose preferred crease-presser was a small glass jar.) I would assume anyone NOT using a tool simply wasn’t aware they existed or was making a rookie mistake.

        We did get a really cool folding machine at one point, but it was typically reserved for the largest run jobs and only did a set number of types of folds – so reduced but did not eliminate the need for hand-folding.

        1. KatieP*

          The shop I worked in got one of those folding machines, as well. Even on the folds it could do, we’d still stack the final products up and run a brayer or bone folder over the creases.

          Not only did the creases look better, but if they had to go through any of the other equipment, it helped keep the product from jamming in the equipment.

    8. Indolent Libertine*

      “Jane, I’m really concerned about the memory problems you must be having, since no matter how often we have this conversation, you keep bringing it up as if you’re seeing it for the first time. Don’t you think you should bring this up with your doctor?”

        1. Bird names*

          Might have read something similar either here or at CaptainAwkward at some point:
          “In an ideal world, how do you wish/imagine the rest of this conversation going?”

      3. Kat*

        I said the same thing before I saw you’d already suggested this. Glad to see I wasn’t the only one who thought trolling the coworker would be a fun way to handle it. :)

    9. froodle*

      I’m obviously consuming too much horror media because seeing you casually drop a reference to bone folders made me think you worked at the Cronenburgh library or something equally body horror adjacent.

      1. canuckian*

        Bone folders were originally made from whale bone, hence the name bone folders. And you can still get ones today made out of cattle bone. I actually have one at one of my libraries made out of bone–I much prefer it to the plastic ones (you can also get teflon) as it’s got more weight and works better.

        And wrt Alison’s comment on making a pointy end…. My made of bone folder does have a pointy end, although it’s not sharp. My plastic ones are rectangular with rounded edges.

        The more you know…

        1. e271828*

          Bone folders made of real bone can burnish or shine textured or colored papers, so when working with a paper with a distinctive finish, it is better to use a teflon one. Acrylic ones can also polish the paper, so make sure it’s teflon to avoid leaving a visible mark from the passage of the folder.

    10. N C Kiddle*

      I bought one when I got into home bookbinding because it’s a much better way to get a sharp fold. I’d just roll my eyes and say “it’s very weird you’re so concerned about this.”

      1. Eukomos*

        This is the one! You don’t want a long answer planned for something like this. Just a quick variation of “you know your behavior here is weird, right?” then move on. Even if you have a really clever clapback planned out, don’t use it, it’ll make it clear you’ve been thinking too much about this, when the message you’re trying to deliver is that this isn’t worth the amount of energy she’s putting into it.

    11. Learn ALL the things*

      I had to fold pamphlets in a former job and we didn’t have any kind of folding tools, so I always just used a ruler or a marker or something. Using a tool rather than your hands prevents skin irritation and it also makes a better fold so your pamphlets will lie flatter.

      If it were me, I’d answer the nosy coworker’s next question about it with “you’ve asked me that dozens of times at this point and my answer has been the same every time. I’d like to stop having this conversation with you.”

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      OP1, By any chance is your co-worker vegan?
      Because that leads to at least 2 options–

      Point out that bone is just in the name & yours is made from some alternate material like The Minotaur suggests.

      Or offer to use a non-bone tool if she orders one.

      1. Arrietty*

        Speaking as a vegan, I’m fairly confident that if this was the objection, the irritating coworker would have said so.

    13. RIP Pillowfort*

      Seriously. I remember my mom always having one on her work desk because her job always had a fair amount of mail folding. Just makes the job easier (like any good tool).

      I think we’re firmly in ignore her territory. Nothing productive is coming from confronting her and she’s just acting like a fool. Let her be one.

    14. Emily of New Moon*

      I’ve never heard of a bone folder before, but it’s possible that LW’s co-worker has, and she’s vegan and thinks they are still made of bones?

      2. Observer*

        but it’s possible that LW’s co-worker has, and she’s vegan and thinks they are still made of bones?

        So this supposed adult cannot just actually *say* something about it being “bone” if they *really* cannot tell that the tool is actually plastic? The only way she can express her vegan discomfort is by repeating this silly performance about a tool not being necessary?

        That doesn’t make her behavior any less bizarre and inappropriate.

      3. ubotie*

        Then she could have acted like an adult many moons ago and asked ONE TIME about the tool in a normal way–ie something like, “what is that tool, please tell me more, are they still made of bone, are there non-animal versions?” etc (and asked about vegan versions in a polite manner too).

        She did not do any of those things so no, I don’t think she’s a vegan. and again, even if she were, it’s irrelevant to the situation. What IS relevant to the situation: she’s being a complete pain in the butt for months on end, apparently, for no real reason other than for kicks and giggles. So let’s stop writing fanfiction about the LW’s annoying coworker and instead of focus on advice for the LW that they can actually use, based on the information we actually have.

    15. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      i came to the comments to find my people. I worked in a rar book store during library school. It’s a tool for this purpose. I currently own four. Is coworker embarrassed that she didn’t know about them?
      What a strange hill to die on.

    16. Clearance Issues*

      when I have to fold 1 single thing, I use my fingers. if I have to fold many, I go for some sort of tool, like the handle of scissors or the back of a pen (I personally don’t have a dedicated folding tool at my disposal 24/7). I would speak up about it before you reach “If you have a problem with how I do it, you fold the pamphlets.”
      Keep using the tool. It’s the same as using a damp sponge to seal envelopes instead of licking the glue. Even if there’s technically no risk of minor injury, (be it microabrasions to calluses, or paper cuts) any repetitive motion can hurt you eventually.

    17. MHG*

      This was my reaction! I’m a paper crafter and I use it for all of the reasons OP mentioned, as well as making sure whatever I’m crafting is free from whatever might be on my hands. (If you have to fold things more than once, the oils on the hands can get in the way quickly.)

    18. juliebulie*

      I once bought an origami set (as a gift) which included a tool to make sharp folds. I’m stunned that anyone would insist that a finger is better. The tool is cleaner and more hygienic than a finger. It is also more effective, in my opinion. There’s also the fact that I can’t stand the sensation of running a crease under my finger.

        1. BellaStella*

          To clarify, it was heavy, weighed a lot, and was made of metal. It was not like a Rammstein, Motley Crue, Metallica or Dio ruler.

          1. Bike Walk Barb*

            Thank you for this–made me snort-laugh. I live with someone who listens regularly to Frog Leap Studio, which does metal covers of popular songs. Hilarious stuff.

    20. Adds*

      I *wish* the place where I had to fold and stuff envelopes had a bone folder. Not so much for the crisp folds but to save my fingers, like LW. I ended up using the back end of a marker.

      The fact the LW’s fellow coworker is hung up on that is weird. It’s at this point where, in a less professional setting, I would offer the job back to them if they had a problem with how was I doing it. But I’m also feeling kinda petty today.

    21. Dust Bunny*

      My first reaction to this was a lip-curled, “What’s your damage?” What is this person’s issue??

      Library/archives person chiming in: My bone scraper is right here in my pencil cup and, yes, Ithink it could be readily honed into a shiv if necessary.

    22. used to be a tester*

      I’d probably respond with a dramatic “I know, right?! It’s madness! MADNESS I TELL YOU!” and then cackle, but I’m not known for my people skills.

    23. CorporateDrone*

      I would lower my voice a little and ask coworker in a concerned tone whether they have been recently checked for memory problems because they seem surprised by your use by the industry standard tool of a bone folder despite you having repeatedly explained what it is and why it is a better tool than a finger.

    24. MotherofaPickle*

      Yep. I love my bone tool, so I bought one for home use!

      Fun fact (that someone else has probably also said): They make them pointy, too!

    25. In the middle*

      My answer would be “what a weird thing to ask in a library” while displaying my array of bone folders (Plastic! Bambo! Pointed! Bone! Worn juuuuuust right!). Or-just imagine yourself as the “Peace was never an option” goose holding the bone folder.

    26. not nice, don't care*

      “OMG you use a printer to produce those brochures?!? Why aren’t you drawing them by hand like a creative person?”

      1. Mentally Spicy*

        That was sort of where I went with this too. Stand over her shoulder while she’s designing and say “oh my god, I can’t believe you’re using InDesign to do that! That’s so *weird*. Typesetting is so much easier…”

    27. iglwif*

      I had never seen one of these before this comment thread, but I’ve used rulers and similar objects for the same kinds of purposes for a very long time! Now I’m going to go acquire a bone folder.

    28. Mr. Osetti*

      OMG YES!!! I remember print shop in high school while the scariest man I ever met in my life (shop teacher, missing the tip of every finger or so the legends said) holding one up & explaining it was called a “boner”, then listing all the circumstances we should use our boners.
      Not one student blinked or giggled or anything. He really was terrifying.

    29. Princess Sparklepony*

      Yes! I love my bone folder! It creates really sharp creases and saves your hands. Plus you won’t get as sharp as a crease without it.

      I wanted to tell LW#1 – That’s a bone folder!

      And yes, you could possibly sharpen it into a serviceable shiv….

    30. Anon Coward*

      Came here to say this. I knew someone who worked in a bindery ages ago and she once cheerfully showed me her “folding bones” — and they were made of real bones, I think cow shoulder!

      Your co-worker’s serving jerk.

  3. JJ*

    #1 – Is the tool a bone folder? (Or a non-bone plastic equivalent?) I think my go-to reply to “you actually need that??” might be a bored “yup, I’m using a tool for what it is literally designed for.”

    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I Speaking of “designed for” my first thought was “bone folder” immediately followed by, “OP, there’s a pointy end for a reason.” Then I got to Alison, “nobody would blame you….” and boom. Spit take.

    3. duinath*

      At this point my answer would be “this again? Don’t you have work to do?”

      But that’s because I would be 100% done with her guff the first time she pulled that routine.

    4. Corporate Lawyer*

      Agreed. And I’m a fan of the broken record technique, i.e., respond in exactly the same way every time the coworker comments. Bored voice: “Yup, I’m using a tool for what it is literally designed for.” Every. Single. Time.

    5. learnedthehardway*

      I think it is time for a long, drawn out history lesson on the ancient and honourable art of paper folding, complete with a discussion of book binding, origami, and print shop SOPs.

      Perhaps a half hour (while the OP completes her folding) of details will cause the coworker to remember next time.

      Weaponizing history for the win!

      1. Zelda*

        Heh. My standard “punishment” for math students who forgot their calculator for the third time running was that they had to listen to a lecture about how my father had to save up a week’s pay for a calculator with ony five functions, in the snow, uphill both ways. (Fourth time, I gave them a trig table and taught them how to interpolate.)

        1. Princess Sparklepony*

          They should be grateful you didn’t hand them a slide rule.

          My dad tried to teach me how they work. It did not go well. I am convinced they are an instrument of the devil.

    6. Recovering Librarian*

      I didn’t realize there was a specific tool for this. I can’t remember what I used to use, but I always used something, maybe a pen or ruler. I have very thin nails and quickly learned that using them damaged the nail.

    7. Consonance*

      Yeah, I’d ready a whole set of possible responses, so each time she makes a comment she gets another one. Normally I wouldn’t be this cold/rude, but there’s very little you can do with people like this.

      Possible responses, all of which should be delivered deadpan:
      – Cool.
      – Man, tools. Am I right? Crazy.
      – That’s a lot of caring you have about how I fold paper.
      – *silent raised eyebrow*
      – I’m guessing “live and let live” wasn’t something you considered?

      Once the list runs out, I’d just hand the paper back to her silently. “Why are you handing this to me?” “You nit pick, you get to do it.”

  4. Cyndi*

    That tool is called a bone folder and it actually does objectively make a sharper, more precise crease than using your finger, calluses and bruises aside! They’re a really common tool for people who work with books and/or paper, and LW1’s coworker is being so weird about this for no reason.

    1. Myrin*

      Right? I’m an archivist and have one at work and even though I don’t use it that often it’s very practical (not to mention satisfying) and in some cases the literal best tool I could use for things even beyond folding. It’s also incredibly old (not mine, I bought it, but the tool itself) so honestly, in addition to being annoying as all hell for no reason whatsoever, the coworker in question sounds pretty uneducated on paper-work which is not something I expect from someone working at a library!

    2. Jackalope*

      Having never heard of this tool (although it absolutely makes sense), I will admit that the first comment mentioning it by name threw me off. I was trying to figure out how one would fold bone, since that doesn’t seem to fit with the way bone generally works. A tool made of bone makes much more sense.

    3. Not on board*

      Yeah, I’d be tempted to say something slightly snarky about this the next time she says something. “Why are you being so weird about this?” and then after that never respond if she comments again. But I suspect that asking her that question would shut down future comments.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        snarky 2.0: for the same reason you did the design, layout and printing on a computer. I’m using the best tool to complete the task.

    4. Mentally Spicy*

      There is always a reason. My money is on it being some sort of superiority complex. “Oh, you need to use a TOOL to do that? You can’t just use your hands?”

      In the same condescending way that a similar sort of person might say “oh, you can only drive a car with automatic transmission? I’ve been driving a manual so long I forgot not everybody could do that!”

    5. Lana Kane*

      I wish I’d had these when I had to fold dozens of new patient packets a week. Our boss at the time was stingy and instead of using large manila envelopes we had to squeeeeeeze them into a regular letter envelope.

  5. Caramel & Cheddar*

    1) LW, using a tool also results in a much crisper edge, which, if you’re like me, makes this kind of task more satisfying. It’s annoying that your coworker is being incredibly obnoxious about it, but in addition to the suggestions given above, think about the small joy your colleague is missing out on by insisting that using a tool is ridiculous.

    If you ever want to treat yourself, get yourself a bone folder (if that’s not what you’re already using). I love mine so much!

  6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

    Re: water

    I don’t think it’s unreasonable to provide your own drinking vessel for water. Just like you might provide your own ceramic mug for coffee. A reusable water bottle could be purchased basically anywhere for the cost of a couple disposable water bottles.

    1. Long time reader*

      I’ve lived in both the southern United States and the West Coast in the past decade and reusable water bottles have become a giveaway of choice. I’ve acquired so many!! I wonder if the LW doesn’t live somewhere where this is the case.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        It’s interesting that this is the one company not awash in branded water bottles, which they could leave in a cupboard for anyone to take.

      2. LinuxSystemsGuy*

        I was going to say this. I just got home from a conference with yet another water bottle and my girlfriend was basically like, “fine which one are we getting rid of, because we have way too many of these.”

      3. Cj*

        Yeah, I have about 12 of them that I’ve gotten for free from various places that give them out for advertising.

      4. Thirst4Life*

        I agree, I think this must not be a North American workplace because it seems so odd to me that reusable water bottles would be in such short supply. And if for some reason you had made it to working age without having a water bottle (or 8) of your own, a reusable one can be had for $2 or $3.

    2. Nodramalama*

      Yeah maybe it’s because I work in government and we have to bring in everything ourselves including forks, but I don’t think it’s crazy to expect people to bring in their own water bottles or cups or whatever

      1. KateM*

        I think it is pretty crazy to expect employer to replace the water bottles that they have gifted to their employees but that those employees have lost.

          1. KateM*

            I’m saying that not only I don’t think it’s crazy to expect people to bring in their own water bottles or cups or whatever (like you), I even think it crazy to expect that the employer should keep gifting people water bottles when people have been careless with those.

          2. MK*

            I think KateM was refering to the post. It’s not actually a case of the employer not providing drinking vessels for water; they did provide water bottles, but some people lost theirs or gave them to other people, and OP is basically complaining about not having replacements (in the form of cups).

            1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

              Could they not provide reusable cups in a cupboard some place where people can grab a cup if they don’t have a bottle?

              1. a clockwork lemon*

                The company is providing water, they provided everyone with their very own dedicated vessel for storing the water and drinking from it, and it’s really not their problem if those employees can’t keep track of the vessel.

                If OP wants single-use disposable cups that badly instead of the re-usable water bottles the company provided while explicitly explaining that they are doing so as part of a company-wide initiative, nobody is stopping them. It’s not even clear that OP is impacted by this issue, just that Some People have misplaced their water bottles.

              2. amoeba*

                Yeah, I mean, I don’t think it’s wild that they don’t provide anything, but I’ve literally never worked anywhere that didn’t have a kitchen with, like, cups and water glasses and stuff. So I’d find it unusual (but just bring my own bottle, anyway!)

              3. Kella*

                In order to provide re-usable cups, you also need somewhere to wash and dry them, and you need someone who is in charge of doing so.

          1. Lenora Rose*

            And in many cases doesn’t. Considering all the other things that can befall a water bottle over time, it seems unlikely this is the concern of this letter writer. Among other things, chronic water bottle theft would make a different problem with a different solution. Especially if it were only water bottles being stolen.

            (though it still wouldn’t really change the advice as far as whether it’s the company’s responsibility to replace ones it has already provided. The company’s responsibility to investigate ongoing theft would be a different issue.)

    3. Skippy*

      LW2 should include the address of their office here so that I can ship them all my brand-new, clean, never-used water bottles received as swag. Bonus: they will be easy to identify and less likely to get misadopted.

      1. Limmy*

        Where I work, we have a shelf that’s entirely for free stuff people want to give away, and there’s never fewer than 6 Stanley-type cups on it. They just seem to reproduce!

      3. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        I decided earlier this year that I was going to buy all of our plant employees (about 25) water bottles before the summer (non-air conditioned plant)*. I couldn’t find any brand new at a price I was willing to pay, so I went to St. Vincent de Paul, where apparently all water bottles go to die. Some were brand new, some were used, but they were all super cheap- I got some as cheap as $.10 and the most I spent on one was $3. If the LW is so concerned about waste but wants an extra bottle (or a dozen), go to a thrift store- there’s bound to be plenty.

        *We have plenty of water, it’s very well ventilated, we give extra breaks, and provide frozen treats and gatorade on particular hot days.

        1. Bruce*

          I appreciate that you listed how you work to prevent heat sickness, it is scary how some companies don’t take that seriously

          1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

            Well, I knew someone would get on my case if I didn’t. And buying the water bottles was meant to be a longer term solution- we have cups and a water fountain, but I figured that a water bottle would be even better. They were on backorder for most of the summer, but we also got in ice machines (just countertop ones, but better than nothing) so we can make ice during the summer.

    4. But what to call me?*

      Yes, the idea that a company might provide a reusable water bottle instead of expecting employees to bring their own was a new one to me. I’m very happy just to have an actual water bottle filling station (or whatever those upright things are called) instead of being expected to fill my water bottle from the drinking fountain with bits of other people’s spit for seasoning! I’ll happily provide my own preferred kind of water bottle if they’ll just give me a reasonably clean place to fill it.

    5. BadMitten*

      Yeah I think if the LW was just hired at the firm and never knew that they used to have paper cups they wouldn’t be bothered. I think it’s more of “ugh they took this away and it was convenient!”

      They might want to buy some disposable paper cups from the grocery and keep it at their desk and encourage those who use plastic bottles to do the same.

      1. KateM*

        Why disposable paper cups instead of a glass or mug, though? Especially if OP is going to be the only one who will drink from that. I am actually a bit surprised that OSHA doesn’t allow for reucable cups or water glasses in a workplace.

        1. Elsa*

          I live outside the US, and most places I’ve worked have had mugs or water glasses available to everyone, which you can use and then hand wash / put into the office dishwasher. Most people bring their own personal water bottle and mug, but the communal ones are available for anyone who needs them, and I’ve certainly used them on days that I forgot my water bottle.

          Are you saying this isn’t allowed at all in the US? That is a shame.

          1. KateM*

            I am outside USA too and have similar experience with communal mugs and water glasses, so I am surprised that OSHA (as quoted – I didn’t search if the quote is exact) insists on disposable ones.

            1. Wayward Sun*

              The OSHA rule is probably because the old practice was to provide a single tin cup or ladle, which everyone then shared. This tended to spread disease, since everyone put it to their mouth.

          2. Antilles*

            It is allowed to have mugs or water glasses available. Every company I’ve ever worked at have a shelf in the kitchen or break room filled with mugs or water glasses plus a sink/dishwasher available to clean them. And I work in an industry (construction) where OSHA does get involved regularly.
            The OSHA quote specifies what you’re *required* to provide, i.e., access to water via fountain, single-use cups from a container, OR single-use bottles. That’s the bare minimum needed to be in compliance with OSHA’s water requirement. But companies are always free to do more than that, by also providing mugs.

            2. KateM*

              But so it is NOT allowed to not have no single-use cups? The reusable ones can be as an addition, but there can’t be only reusable ones.

              1. mlem*

                It’s a list. So you can have a fountain; you can have a communal container like a gallon jug *and* cups to serve from it; or you can have single-use bottles. You don’t have to provide cups for fountains, and you don’t have to provide cups for single-use bottles.

                That being said, I suspect the rule was made when “fountains” were taken to mean dispensers you lean over and drink from directly (also called “bubblers” in some regions), rather than the sort of water dispensers that are more common these days.

              2. Lenora Rose*

                I don’t think so but I am not an OSHA expert. I think single use cups are listed a the minimum, with reusable cups a suitable replacement (and often a step up).

                In any case the obvious spirit of the rule is that anyone who wants water can drink. Since a water fountain with no cups at all is considered an adequate source for the purpose, reusable cups fulfill the purpose of the rule.

              3. Antilles*

                If you are going with the option of “covered container with cups” (e.g., a construction crew with a 5-gallon water cooler), then yes, you would need single-use cups to satisfy the standard; the reusable ones don’t meet it.
                But if you’re in an office with a water fountain (and typically if your office is big enough to have a kitchen, it’ll have a water fountain somewhere too), then the water fountain already meets the requirement. So in that case, you can have no single-use cups.

              4. pocket microscope*

                No. It’s or, not and. You can’t have one communal cup that everyone has to use throughout the day, sharing it around and all drinking from it by turn. But you can have multiple reusable cups that get washed, provided there’s somewhere to wash them. OR you can have single use cups. Or you can have a water fountain that people drink from directly. Or you can provide single use water bottles.

                There’s no requirement to provide single use cups specifically, UNLESS there’s no other reasonable way for people to hygienically drink the water you provide. So you couldn’t have a jug of water and nothing to drink it from.

          3. Seashell*

            I am in the US and I don’t think I have ever worked anywhere with a dishwasher, so it doesn’t seem like all offices have them.

            1. Dahlia*

              It’s definitely never been a thing in any retail job I’ve worked at (in Canada). I then found it very strange when I read people on this site saying that taking home lunch dishes without washing them at work would be super gross or impossible to do without making a mess because that’s what everyone does.

              1. The Rural Juror*

                We have 3 dishwashers spread through my office (approx 200 people on site – 2 break rooms and 1 catering area) but they’re for company-owned dishes such as mugs and catering platters/cutlery. We host a lot of clients in our meeting areas, so it made sense to install them when we remodeled our space recently. The only time we use them for anyone’s personal items is after a potluck (we do 3 of those a year).

            2. Non-profit drone*

              I work in higher ed; not one of the main buildings has even a “kitchen” let alone a dishwasher. Some lucky offices have a sink and minifridge, rather than having to wash your dishes off in the bathroom. They got rid of water coolers in the pandemic to save money, and they never came back. We use the water fountains which have a bottle filler spout. The idea of providing drinking cups is laughable.

          4. Learn ALL the things*

            I work in government, so none of the agencies where I’ve worked have been allowed to spend money on things that are only for staff that aren’t absolutely necessary. They’ll buy the fridge for staff to put their lunches in, and some of them will buy a microwave for staff to heat up lunches (not all, at one of my past jobs the microwave broke and finance told us we should have a bake sale between staff to raise money for a new one) but most government offices can’t pay for more than that. Some offices will have a mishmash of old mugs and silverware that previous staff have left behind, but we’re not allowed to use government funds on things like drinking glasses for staff.

          5. Starbuck*

            It totally is allowed, the LW here seems to be stubborn about their options for whatever reason. I sit here in my US office with my reusable bottle for water that I bring every day, and my various mugs that I use to make coffee or tea which I rinse in the sink. It’s completely normal in an office.

        2. WeirdChemist*

          If I’m reading the quoted regulation correctly, OSHA is requiring single-use receptacles be made *available* (unless there’s something like a water fountain, where people can drink without using a receptacle), not that *only* single-use can be used or that reusable receptacles are not allowed. There is absolutely no government regulation banning or preventing the use of reusable drink ware in US workplaces, that would be absolutely ridiculous.

          1. doreen*

            Yes, it seems to require that single use cups be available if the only source of water is a water cooler or a sink which requires a receptacle – but if there is a both water fountain and a water cooler, cups don’t need to be available because the fountain doesn’t require a cup.

            1. Flor*

              Yeah, that would be my (IANAL) reading of it. Employers are being required to provide water in a drinkable format, either with a water fountain you can drink directly from or with single-use receptacles of some sort. A water cooler that you have to use a receptacle for I don’t think “counts” as a drinking fountain.

              That being said, this is an office and not a manual labour environment, so legality aside I don’t consider it unreasonable to just expect adults to be responsible for their own fluid intake in a climate-controlled environment, same as they’re responsible for their own food intake during the day.

        3. Starbuck*

          Why not a mug indeed! It does seem like an obvious option but for whatever reason the LW hasn’t already just done that.

      2. Learn ALL the things*

        I’ve never wanted to use the disposable cups at a water cooler. They’re usually tiny, so you get maybe two swallows of water, and I’ve always found it more convenient to bring my own bottle so I only have to fill it two or three times a day rather than going back to get a tiny cup of water over and over.

        1. The Rural Juror*

          Plus, the old water coolers had those tubes on the side held the little cone cups you couldn’t even set down on a surface! So inconvenient. Everyone at my office has water bottles but our office does have a cupboard with a few sturdy plastic cups for folks who forget theirs.

    6. Roland*

      And framing this as “everyone is forced to be environmentally unfriendly unless they buy a bottle” is pretty eye-roll-inducing. If you have enough money for one disposable bottle of water, you can pick up half a dozen reusable plastic cups at the dollar store. Problem solved.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          That’s not actually the best idea; with repeated use the plastics will leach into the water. Once or twice is okay, but please don’t use the same one all summer!

          1. Pocket Mouse*

            I’ve been curious about this, if you happen to know the answer: why would refilling the same water bottle every day (and presumably often sitting empty, like overnight) for a full season result in more leaching than the original water sitting in the bottle for a full season?

            1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

              I think it’s a question off how you’re using it. If you’re only rinsing and refilling it with cold water and keeping it out of sunlight, it’s probably not breaking down the plastic appreciably faster, so you can probably reuse it until close to the expiration date. But if you’re washing it with hot water (which you probably should do periodically even if it’s just you drinking from it) or if you’re bringing it out into sunlight or hot summer weather, that’s going to speed up the process and leach more plastic into your water.

              1. Pocket Mouse*

                Ah, I’m reading this as: an unopened water bottle that has been sitting in a snack shed without A/C at a high school in a warm climate for half the football season is worse off than a water bottle I refill daily for that same amount of time and wash with tepid soapy water in my slightly cool, sunless office. Which tracks with the water’s taste, tbh.

            2. Brooklyn*

              The process by which plastic bottles leach chemicals into their contents are, like most chemical processes, affected by environmental factors – namely heat and sunlight, which break the bonds between the plastic and the chemicals in question. It’s why a water bottle in a hot car will taste funny and one that was refrigerated won’t.

              A bottle that is carried around all summer, emptied, refilled, tossed around, left sitting in the sun for a few hours, forgotten in a car, etc. is more likely to be exposed to those leaching-enhancing conditions than on that is sitting filled in a case in your climate controlled home. That’s why, despite how convenient it is, leaving a case of water in your car is actually an awful idea.

              At the end of the day, neither option is good. Buying a $5 reusable bottle (that won’t explode, tear, have the cap break off, whatever) is both more convenient and healthier than reusing a disposable one. I’m not sure what benefit they’re getting other than not thinking about it.

      2. WheresMyPen*

        Yeah I found the implication of the post – that employees’ only option is to buy a company reusable water bottle or buy a single use bottle of water – a bit strange. Bring a bottle of water from home? Use a different brand of bottle? Bring a mug or reusable cup from home? Buy a pack of single use cups and keep them in your drawer? Unless they left out the fact that employees are only allowed to use a company branded water bottle, which would be wild, I don’t see much of a problem or obligation here.

        1. Anonymous Tech Writer*

          FWIW At one point, our factory employees WERE required to use a specific branded mug….because it had been determined to be sufficiently spill-resistant after an expensive product-loss spill.

        2. Nebula*

          Yeah this is reminding me a bit of stories like “only having four speed dial options instead of six the horror” – though not quite on that scale. It’s a complete non-issue that seems like a big deal to the people involved because it’s the result of a change which means they have to do things slightly differently.

    7. Helvetica*

      Yeah, I am a bit perplexed why the LW thinks the only options are “to either pay for plastic water bottles (hardly environmentally friendly) or buy their own reusable one.”
      I have a ceramic mug at my desk that I can use for water, tea, coffee, any kind of drink. Why do you need it to be a bottle?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I can easily imagine a job site where at least some employees have no desks and the environment is not conducive to stacks of mugs… but those would be the locations for which OSHA specified a drinking-water fountain.

        (Farms, factories, sewer treatment, etc.)

      2. Cmdrshprd*

        ” Why do you need it to be a bottle?”

        I personally need it to be a bottle because I am clumsy and likely spill anything that does not have a fully/99.99% sealable top.

        I use travel coffee mugs for my coffee and water and I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve knocked them over but everything was fine because they were sealed. Or on the occasions they were still open only a little bit spilled because the mouth/opening was small.

      3. iglwif*

        I personally need it to be a bottle (or one of those tumblers with a straw) because otherwise I will sooner or later spill the contents all over my desk, my mouse pad, and my laptop.

        That said, I would not complain about having to bring my own water bottle from home–we’ve got lots, and that way I know I’ll have one I like.

    9. Luna*

      It’s not unreasonable to ask an employee to bring in their own cup or reusable water bottle. I wonder why this is such a problem? And company did dispense a water bottle.

    10. Audrey Puffins*

      My workplace provided us all with a mug and a reusable water bottle, but the mug is too small for the amount of tea I like to drink, and the water bottle gets icky in the built-in spout. So I brought in my own larger mug and reusable plastic cup. This is such a comparatively minor issue with such a simple fix that I’m wondering if there are bigger worser things going on in LW #4’s workplace but they’ve seized on this one as the battle they’re able to deal with right now

      1. Steve*

        I never use a water bottle- I purchase a cheapo mug for $10 at a dollar store and, bc I’m that guy, a sponge and a small squeeze bottle of dish soap that I keep in a drawer in my desk. I use, clean, dry, store as needed. I worked for a place once that gave out a water bottle – I too hate drinking out of them so I used it to water plants.

    13. Annony*

      I think there does need to be a way to drink water if you forget to bring your own water bottle. A drinking fountain would cover it. But if they only have water dispensers and no fountain then there is a problem.

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        This is where I am.

        And yes, I know “well next time you won’t forget will you!” and “what, you can’t afford to buy a bottle when you forget yours?” Guess it works for me since the Fortune 100 companies I’ve always worked at still provide disposable cups (compostable at my current company).

    14. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      yeah, I mean everyone gets one at first, which is nice, it’s only those who misplace theirs that have a problem. You lose it, you replace it, otherwise who’s to say you won’t start losing them rather regularly?
      I had my own mug at work, others had their own water bottle.

    15. Not on board*

      That’s what I was thinking – I can get cute reusable water bottles/tumblers with a straw from the dollar store for less than a fast food breakfast sandwich. I get that it would be nice for the company to provide the water bottle if you lose one, but it seems like too small an issue to be going through OSHA guidelines about. Also, as said by others, I have numerous reusable water bottles because people are constantly giving them away.

    16. Another Kristin*

      yeah, this seems like a weird thing to get upset about. even if you’re broke you can buy a dollar store or thrift store mug/bottle for a few bucks! It seems about as onerous as the expectation that you need to come to work wearing shoes.

    17. Tippy*

      Agree, especially when a bottle was provided for and the employee is the one that lost it. No shame on losing things, I do it all the time, but when I do I replace it.

    18. JMC*

      Yeah NO job I’ve ever had has provided anything to drink water out of, just the water itself. It isn’t unusual at all.

    19. Artemesia*

      This. They gave everyone a water bottle. To think they have to continue to provide cups or bottles because people misplace them would be an odd hill to die on. Bring your own mug; use a disposable bottle and refill it. (when we travel, I don’t use a good water bottle, I buy a hard plastic disposable at the airport and then when I inevitably misplace it after using it for days or weeks, no harm no foul.

      They gave everyone a bottle. Why is this an issue?

    20. Strive to Excel*

      When I was in a very large West Coast US university, once a quarter they’d have a Lost-and-Found sale. Basically anything that was in Lost and Found for more than 3 months got put up for sale and the remnants were send to Goodwill.

      And every quarter. Water bottles. Water bottles as far as the eye can see. In every shape, color, material, and brand imaginable. You could probably pick up and move a small pond with the amount of water bottles there. They were being sold at 2/$1.

      Maybe OP lives in a water bottle drought area?

    21. Starbuck*

      It does seem like a kind of bizarrely petty point to argue. I’m sure someone can come up with plenty of ideas for why it might be an unreasonable burden for someone to bring in their own bottle/cup to the office… but I think it probably won’t reflect well on someone to really argue this point. Asking for some extra branded swag for the office is totally reasonable, but also being told ‘sorry too late for this budget cycle, have to bring your own for now’ is also reasonable, I think.

    22. iglwif*

      My household is AWASH (pun intended) in reusable water bottles and insulated tumblers of every description, most received as employer or vendor swag by me or my spouse over the years. Almost everyone I know has this kind of problem, unless they are truly fanatical about yeeting them at regular intervals.

      It’s kind of astonishing to me that nobody at LW’s workplace has water bottles they’d like to unload.

    23. Throwaway Account*

      I’m surprised that the OP #4 has ever been provided with paper cups. I don’t think I’ve ever worked anywhere that supplied cups to drink from aside from a collection of mugs left by employees and maybe occasional company swag cups/bottles.

      I’m not sure what the aversion is to providing your own cup unless you don’t have a desk or locker to store it in.

      1. iglwif*

        I worked at a place with paper cups once!

        … in the mid-1990s. By the time I’d been there ~2 years, they’d been phased out in favour of a random collection of mismatched ceramic mugs people didn’t want in their kitchens anymore. (People also had their own mugs, water bottles, etc., that they kept at their desks, of course! But you need something for visitors and the people who are occasional rather than regular coffee/tea drinkers to use.)

    24. Consonance*

      This question was really odd to me, because I don’t think I’ve ever worked somewhere that officially provided drinking vessels. At my state institution, there are even very clear guidelines about the organization not using state funds to provide “personal” things, such as refrigerators in which employees can store their lunch. Is that completely overboard? Yes. Do we have a cabinet full of mugs employees have left behind over the years? Absolutely.
      All that to say, this is absolutely not a hill to die on. Go to your local thrift store and get some nearly-free drinking vessels.

    25. Princess Sparklepony*

      The company decided to provide a communal dipper at the water fountain for those who don’t have a branded water bottle… /s

  7. Daria grace*

    1. Some people are weird about these things. I once had a customer send pretty intense hate mail about how that we stapled her cheque to the bottom of the letter was proof we disrespected her (it was actually because stapling it at the top jammed our letter folding machine). Sometimes you’ve just gotta pretend you’re in a sitcom and the person you’re dealing with is an especially weirdly written character

    1. allathian*

      Indeed. That said, customers are one thing, sometimes you have to deal with weird stuff from them, it’s a cost of doing business. Coworkers who keep asking the same question over and over are something else.

    2. ghost_cat*

      Yep – people are weird. I once replied to someone who submitted a form under the name ‘Ms Matilda Wormwood’, so in my letter, I addressed it to ‘Ms Wormwood’. She lodged a complaint about me, not least for not checking with her first as to her preferred name before replying to her as ‘Ms Wormwood’.

      1. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

        And how were you supposed to check how she wanted to be addressed without addressing her in some form?

    3. J. random person*

      I had a customer complain about the way I stapled his receipts together. (Most people want them stapled, but if he’d asked me not to, I would have complied.) He then announced he was going to get me fired. I said, okay, you do that. Spoiler: I did not get fired.

      1. LinuxSystemsGuy*

        It’s always fired, right? Obviously the most appropriate penalty for mildly inconveniencing someone is summary execution. What are these people thinking? What a manger would possibly agree to fire someone over something so stupid? Who would want to see someone lose their livelihood over something so stupid?

        1. Observer*

          Who would want to see someone lose their livelihood over something so stupid?

          A child in an adult body. Seriously. It’s not just that it’s vicious. But that it’s SO stupid, and SUCH an over-reaction, even if the employee were objectively wrong. Only people with no sense of proportion whatsoever do that or expect others to do that.

          And one of the things that humans need to learn to become functional adults is a basic sense of proportion. So, som

    4. Cyndi*

      When I worked in mortgage post closing, a bank contacted my boss to complain about me personally because I was paper clipping documents instead of stapling them.

      I LOATHED staples in that job, because I had to go through these thick stacks of paper and pick them all out, and closers stapled things in the oddest places (dead center of a one-page document?) and if I missed even one it jammed the bulk scanner and damaged both the scanner and the documents. I was pulling so many unnecessary staples at that job that no matter how carefully I tried to throw them out, they collected in crannies of my desk. In my clothes. I found one in my lunch once when I was eating at my desk. I found them in my sheets at home. LOATHED THEM. I wanted to push the closing department to paper clip everything instead, but we had no leverage.

      But that particular bank was extremely picky, so stapling it was.

  8. Rocky*

    “No one would blame you if you sharpened that tool into a pointy weapon.” And this is why I read AAM. :-)

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      But you could still do some damage with a blunt instrument.

      I think I have seen Chris the bookbinder use this tool on The Repair Shop as it also means you don’t touch the paper.

  9. Nodramalama*

    Yeah LW2 I assume they mean like, wear green and red and not, a baby jesus necklace. But you are correct that unless you live somewhere like Japan, it is all inherently Christian.

    1. wanda*

      If I read “wear holiday attire (nothing religious or offensive)” on an invite to an office party, I would think that the writer was asking people to wear winter-themed clothing, like with snowflakes, gingerbread people, and penguins wearing scarves, and explicitly asking them NOT to wear Santa or Christmas trees. Then again, if there’s a Christmas tree on the invitation, that’s already significantly more religious than any workplace I’ve ever been in.

      1. But what to call me?*

        That was my thought when I read that: snowflakes. That’s probably what I’d go with if I was going to a party with those instructions.

      2. BadMitten*

        I think it’s weirdly worded, why not say “winter themed attire” or something? Or give some parameters like, “Christmas trees, Santa hats, and menorahs are ok, please no nativity scenes or crosses.”

        Anyway I’m glad my workplaces just have “end of the year” parties where we’re supposed to dress a little fancy.

        1. X*

          No crosses isn’t a good example. Many people wear them (or other religous symbols like star of David) as their daily jewelry.

          1. Annony*

            I agree. I think that specifically asking people not to wear something religious is just as bad as asking people to wear it. Both make people feel erased. Either specifying “winter themed” (without further instruction) or not telling people what to wear would work best.

            1. duinath*

              True. Maybe just don’t have a holiday party. Much though some people enjoy these types of things, they do exclude people based on their religion or culture, and the general assumption it’s secular is in some ways just salt in the wound.

              End of the year party works best, if you must do a party this time of year, imho.

              (My bottom line, yes, LW, you are right to feel the way you’re feeling.

              Unfortunately if you want to decline to participate and someone asks why any response I can think of is too inflammatory. Conversations around this tend to end up that way.

              I also don’t think it’s fair to advise you to step back, because you should get to participate in your workplace social events as much as anyone.)

          2. Lenora Rose*

            I thought they meant on the sweater/outfit. The same cross (or star of David, or pentagram, or etc) you wear on every single other day would not magically become inappropriate on that one day if it wasn’t beforehand.

          3. Princess Sparklepony*

            I just had a brain flash of some guy dragging in a 9 foot wooden cross and when questioned says “You said crosses were fine!”

        2. Emily Byrd Starr*

          Menorahs are inherently religious, just like Christmas trees.

          Signed, someone with a Jewish mother and Catholic father

          2. anony*

            My gut reaction was that they meant “don’t dress up as Jesus” and the like – thus the “nothing religious *or offensive*” language. Maybe it’s been a problem in the past (stranger things have happened in AAM – in fact, I’m pretty sure that exact thing has happened in AAM). Because otherwise, what could non-religious holiday wear possibly mean? Holidays *are* religious, with the exception of a few purely patriotic ones like Independence Day.

            2. Philosophia*

              Not even excepting July 4th: The Declaration of Independence is founded upon arguments from Deism.

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        I think I might assume that somebody had used the invitation as an excuse to wear something either blatantly evangelising or deliberately provocative in some previous year, something like a top with a slogan saying “put Christ back into Christmas” or “dare to say ‘Merry Christmas'” or something implying that Jesus “saved” the world from paganism. Or, I guess, that somebody wore something like a cartoon version of the nativity scene and somebody took offence, thinking it disrespectful. And that the instructions basically meant, “don’t wear something likely to cause an argument.”

        But yeah, it’s very unclear and it makes me suspect that the company sees Christmas itself as secular and only stuff that directly references God or Jesus as Christian.

        1. Nobby Nobbs*

          Yeah, I assumed they felt these instructions were necessary because someone had made themselves a Problem. But maybe I’m cynical.

        2. Artemesia*

          my husband and daughter have sweatshirt/printed sweaters with reindeer, snowmen, snowflakes, red and green stripe patterns and ‘Eat the Rich’ — does that work?

        3. Statler von Waldorf*

          I just checked, and despite the fact that I won last years ugly sweater contest at my former workplace with a sweater of Jesus with the caption “birthday boy” on it, this letter did not actually come from my former workplace.

          I honestly thought it would be funny, and enough other people thought so that I won the contest. Others .. not so much. One lady refused to talk to me again, and crossed herself whenever I walked by until I left. I honestly don’t try to be deliberately provocative in the workplace, but history has shown that I have repeatedly managed it despite my best intentions.

          So yeah, I agree with Irish Teacher’s assumption. I can see that happening.

          1. Mentally Spicy*

            I would find that sweater hilarious and I would find her crossing herself when you walked by even more hilarious.

            It would take all my willpower not to call out “get thee behind me satan!” when you passed my desk!

          3. Coverage Associate*

            I saw these Christmas cards that are just a nativity scene with the letters “OMG” above. They were almost enough to make me want to go through the trouble of sending Christmas cards this year. Love this shirt idea!

      4. Holiday OP*

        What’s hilarious is this is a state government office in a (slightly) left-leaning state in the US. You’d think they’d know better.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          I also work in a government office, where our assistant manager is very enthusiastic about treats and parties. The holiday party has been arranged, along with games and decorating contests.
          It’s intended as an opportunity to have a little fun and bond with our coworkers and good food, of course. Nothing more.
          We have never discussed religion at my workplace, so I don’t know if any of my colleagues are other religions. If there was someone of another religion who wanted to introduce an activity celebrating it, it would be welcomed with interest. At my previous job, a Jewish colleague brought in a menorah, and it driedl and set them up amid the Christmas decorations, and it was welcomed. And there, the Christmas decorations more because the boss love decorations, not any religious reason.

        2. doreen*

          I wouldn’t assume they know better- because I worked for a state government in a left-leaning state and felt like I was having a particular variety of Christianity shoved at me all the time , from people deciding to say grace at a party to saying prayers at meetings if someone was ill or had a death in the family to answering machine/voice mail messages to having tracts left on my desk. ( Worst was when a Jewish colleague retired, we had a dinner at a kosher restaurant and someone said a grace mentioning Jesus even though I explicitly told hm not to) Thing is – it was never the managers doing it. I suspect the managers didn’t say anything because it’s uncomfortable (not that that’s an excuse)

          1. Rara Avis*

            A person I know, son of a pastor, was talking about going to a kids’ Hanukkah party at the JCC (because his friend ran it), and commenting on all the little kids with fire (a menorah with candles for each): “Sweet baby Jesus!” Yeah, umm, maybe not the best expletive at the JCC … at a Hanukkah party …

        3. Pointy's in the North Tower*

          Fellow state government employee here. I still have people mad that I won’t put up the Christmas tree (because Christmas is a *Christian* holiday and we’re a state agency, as I constantly have to remind people). The fact that some staff aren’t Christian and/or don’t observe ANY religious winter holidays is irrelevant.

        4. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

          Plenty of liberal leaning or fairly neutral leaning organizations are completely OK with a generic Holiday party. Really in my nearly two decades working in offices the only hubbub I’ve ever seen around these winter parties is on this site. And trust me – the people I work with are comfortable complaining!

          It’s also been my experience that European owned businesses operating in America are way more likely to flat out throw a Christmas party. So remember this discomfort is very much a USA thing.

        5. Over Analyst*

          I work for the federal government in a left-leaning state, and we’ve had the chaplain say grace at work Thanksgiving!
          With the wording you gave I’d also be concerned they’re going to have different versions of “religious” and for instance, agree that your Santa or Christmas tree is fine but the coworker’s menorah sweater is inappropriate.

        6. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

          Ugh, government holiday parties. I’m a federal government contractor and I’d just like to vent because we are not allowed to bill for these hours. They even send out these ethics emails reminding contractors that we are not allowed to count any during work hours holiday function as work hours. And yet, the government side still schedules it and you always have some government leader that asks why you aren’t participating in this ‘fun activity they planned to increase morale’. I’ve started replying that I don’t like you guys enough to actually come into the office (we’re all hybrid schedule) and use leave hours just to have some desserts and a sweater contest.

        7. Bitte Meddler*

          Some of the most egregious displays of religiosity I’ve seen have been at government offices.

          My local post office: One of the clerks had a HUGE, customer-facing sign that said, “JESUS SAVES!” and another on the other side of her station that said, “JESUS LOVES YOU!”

          My local DMV: One of the clerks had a sign taped to her window, facing the customers and the waiting area, that said, “GOD IS GOOD! May He bless you as He has blessed me!”

          Both times, when I was done with my business, I asked to talk to the manager/supervisor of the location and pointed out that large, customer-facing signs are completely different than Bible verses in their workspaces or wearing a cross pendant; that they are closer to proselytizing than they are to personal expressions of religion.

          No idea what happened at the DMV because I haven’t been back to that location, but the next time I was in the post office, the customer-facing religious signs had been taken down.

      5. Falling Diphthong*

        I was going full on masquerade, and they want people to dress as snowmen. Or just giant hunks of ice maneuvering around the dance floor.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          To be clear, the above is not sarcasm. If it’s festive holiday attire but not religious, then I am picturing costumes. But you can’t come dressed as a religious figure. And if you’re going with “festive for this point in the year but no religious symbolism at all” then snowmen, snowflakes, and icicles seem to be where you’re aiming.

          If you would appreciate people sparking up the clothes they wear to work, then the ever mysterious “festive attire” is the way to go. (Some people wear their work clothes, and some what they would wear to a New Year’s Eve party.)

              1. Princess Sparklepony*

                When he flips up the iceberg background is just hilariously perfect! Thanks for the link.

        2. Princess Sparklepony*

          I would like to see your hunk of ice costume! This could also work for a climate change party or a Titanic party. Sure anyone can dress up like John Jacob Astor or Molly Brown, but the iceberg… that’s genius. (Or you go as the door and keep remarking – There was room for two!)

      6. Crencestre*

        Yes! There are ever so many TRULY secular winter-themed decorations, jewelry and
        clothes that nobody MUST wear religious symbols in order to celebrate the season. You mentioned snowflakes, gingerbread people and penguins – I’d add sleds, sleighs, skis, ice skates, snowmen (and snow-women, too!), gingerbread houses and hot chocolate.

        There are PLENTY of clothes, jewelry and decorations that say “Winter’s here!” without being overt or covert references to Christmas – choose from those and everyone’s happy (and included).

      7. Crencestre*

        Yes! There are ever so many clothes, earrings, pins, rings and pendants that say “Winter” without saying “Christmas” (even obliquely.) You mentioned snowflakes, gingerbread people and penguins – I’d add sleds, sleighs, skis, ice skates, gingerbread houses, snowmen (and snow-women!), holly, and winter forest scenes. All of those celebrate the season and none of them references Christmas!

        1. For the Love of*

          FWIW, holly feels EXTREMELY Christmas to me. As does gingerbread houses/people (though they are fun! and gingerbread people only read Chriustmas to me in the lead up the Christmas) the rest are truly just winter though

        1. Jenesis*

          I’m an atheist who lives in Southern California and have no clue how I’d “festively” dress up for the “winter holidays” – we don’t have snow! A plain red and green sweater? Full on gingerbread person costume? (But then people might think I was spiting Christmas by still wanting it to be Halloween?)

        2. Lizard the Second*

          Yeah, I’m in Australia, and if you dress up in “holiday attire” in December with a winter theme, everyone knows you’re actually talking about Christmas. Nobody is randomly celebrating winter.

      10. learnedthehardway*

        I would have taken it as “don’t wear a sweater with a manger scene” on it. So, the meaning is really less than clear. And, honestly, why police that?!?! I think that’s entirely weird.

        1. Flor*

          They’re not a pagan tradition. Someone shared a really good link here last year, I think, about how almost all of our modern Christmas traditions are actually very recent (in Anglophone countries, they mostly date to the Victorian era) and have no roots in pagan celebrations.

          Christmas trees are a good example; they only reached Anglophone countries in the Victorian era, though they were used in Germany from the Reformation onwards. That’s still about a century after that part of Europe was Christianised, though!

            1. Flor*

              Ahh, thank you!

              And yes, I wholeheartedly agree – whether it’s pagan or Christian in origin doesn’t change the fact that it’s part of religious observance not everyone follows.

              1. Flor*

                It actually wasn’t this one, having read it; the one I’m thinking of was an academic/historian rather than Christian writer.

            2. Foila*

              Interesting article, but I’m majorly side-eyeing this part:
              “Real paganism — the real historical kind, not the kind you buy on that shelf at Barnes and Noble next to the tarot cards, nor the kind you hear whispered about down at the “New Age Shoppe” — resolved into one basic action: Making sacrifices (often of animals, but always of food) to false gods and sharing that meal with them so that you can commune with the demon who is masquerading as a god worthy of worship. That’s what actual, real historical paganism is at its very core.”

              1. Crencestre*

                Okay, sigh…this is what we pagans get tired of hearing! “Real paganism” – like every living religion! – is constantly evolving and developing. No, we do NOT practice our faith exactly as people did thousands of years ago, but that’s true of Judaism and Christianity as well. (Oh, and their description of the “real historical kind” of paganism is so far off the mark as to be hilarious- or it would be if there weren’t some people naive enough to take it seriously…)

          2. Anonymouse*

            My friend is Jewish and immigrated from Ukraine at a young age. She says that during the Soviet era, the state was nominally atheist, so Christmas trees were made secular and renamed New Year’s Trees. As a result, everyone had them, regardless of religion. She and her family really like the tradition, so she puts one up every year. (This is her story; I’m not here to quibble with any historical inaccuracies.)

            All in all, though, I agree that decorated trees are too strongly associated with a particular religion to have a place in a government office.

        2. Myrin*

          They’re not. They’re a German tradition and have been around for centuries, but their origin lies in nativity scenes in churches and on markets also having a “Garden Eden” scene with an apple tree. And since there were no apple trees with leaves in December in 15th century central Europe, they used an evergreen like fir or spruce.

      12. Coverage Associate*

        I have worked in San Francisco for 15 years, and trees are the norm in my offices, as well as in the lobbies of buildings with federal government suites. (My first job was in a building that also had an immigration court. My current job shares a building with a senator’s local office and the Irish and Canadian consulates.)

        But to me 0 religions would be strictly snowflakes. I would probably end up in something with sparkles and nothing I couldn’t wear any time of year.

        Even red and green would be religious to me. I am not wearing red to the Jewish Bar Association’s end of year party. I wish I could wear green, as I own lots of green. I feel like red and green would just be bright but normal clothes at other times of year, if they were otherwise normal, but turn special in November.

        But if the invitation had a decorated tree, I would definitely understand the organizers had a narrower understanding of “religious.”

        Not just plain fir trees, though. More as an accommodation to my own busyness in not always having time to find Chanukah wrapping paper, plain trees are like snowflakes and generic in my book.

    2. Liina*

      Not just Japan, a big chunk of Europe has Juletime traditions that predate Christianity by centuries (Christianity was introduced to these areas by sword in the middle ages).

      Juletime traditions include: gifts exchanges an the longest and darkest night of the year, extra candles or buring thin woodstrips on the longest and darkest night of the year, jule log (predecessor of the entire tree) burning in the fireplace, fatty food such as roasted pork to build up endurance to cold conditions in the middle of winter… etc

      Joulupukki also originates from Lapland in Finland ;)

      Western anglo-american values world dominance has engulfed these predating naturalistic worldview traditions and turned them into a commercial campaign for Christmas.

      1. Really?*

        Truly amazing how many people feel the need to tell us why Christmas isn’t really Christian on the post where Allison has specifically asked that you not. Amazing. Thank you for informing me that anything that has ever been pagan cannot now be Christian, because cultures never change and practices never take on new meanings.

        1. Liina*

          Really. I think it is a bit of a narrow interpretation to equate winter solstice with just christianity and say it is disrespectful to all non christians.

          Live and let live :)

      2. Hengabecka*

        Indeed, it does seem that many Americans see our European pre-Christian midwinter traditions as essentially part of Christmas, and therefore part of Christianity. I feel like it’s almost cultural appropriation – let them enjoy their own nonsense like the Coca Cola truck and peppermint everything and parades and Hallmark movies; we’ll carry on wassailing the apple trees and kissing under the mistletoe and baking giant puddings of fruit and fat to share, as we have for thousands of years. Don’t let American Christians ruin Yule for everyone. I wish everyone a merry and peaceful winter solstice, and confidence in the return of spring :-)

        1. Emily Byrd Starr*

          My understanding is that Jesus was actually born in the spring, but the early church changed the date because so many ex-Pagans converted to Christianity and still wanted to celebrate their winter solstice holiday. So finally, the church gave in, telling them they could still celebrate the solstice, as long as they called it Christmas instead of Yule.

          1. Pointy's in the North Tower*

            How dare you bring logic and history to this conversation!?!

            Jk. I’ve had this conversation with my Christian boyfriend. He loves Christmas. I hate it. I told him he could put up a small tree if he wanted, but that was it since I don’t want a lot of overtly religious symbology in the house.

          2. Flor*

            Then 1000 years later in Scotland the newly reformed Church told people they couldn’t celebrate Christmas anymore because people were getting drunk instead of worshipping properly (it wasn’t even a day off work till sometime in the 1960s), so all the “Winter sucks and I hate life” carousing and gift-giving just moved onto Hogmanay and the New Year.

            Since Christmas has become more and more popular in Scotland in the last 60 years, a lot of those Hogmanay traditions are becoming less common (I don’t know anyone my age who first foots, for instance, but my relatives in their 70s still give housewarming-type gifts to literally anyone they visit in January).

      3. Another Kristin*

        There are a lot of really dark Nordic/Germanic Christmas traditions – it would be very funny if a company hired a Krampus impersonator instead of Santa, or had the directors dress up as the Yule Lads and put rotten potatoes in low-performing employees’ shoes. If I’m ever a CEO, I’m making this happen

          1. Another Kristin*

            I believe Iceland has a traditional giant Christmas cat, which will come and eat you if you’re naughty. So when I release a jaguar at my company’s holiday party, I’m just bringing back the reason for the season!

    3. Lilo*

      There’s actually caselaw on secular versus non secular holiday decorations (and it’s just as much strained logic as you’d expect from the US court system). But basically, as long as you’re not explicitly referencing the Biblical story they let it slide. That’s probably about the standard they’re going for.

        1. Lilo*

          There’s a lot, but the old case is Allegheny v. ACLU, which is from 1989. I’m hesitant to get into the weeds, but basically an overall display that included a menorah and Christmas trees together was ruled to basically be a secular holiday display, whereas a creche displayed alone was not. I want to emphasize that I’m not in any way saying this is my opinion at all, I’m just describing the last case I know of that made the US Supreme Court and is explicitly on this issue. And I know this risks derailing so I’m really really not trying to start a debate here. Plus with the current makeup of the court a lot of precedent I learned in school is dead so who knows anymore.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            In the city where I live, the Catholic churches found a way around that rule several years ago. They all got together and raised money from a life-size creche and gifted it to the city to be displayed outside City Hall every year. There’s a sign next to it saying, “A gift from the Catholic churches of (name of city).” So now we have a creche, but it’s allowed because our tax dollars didn’t pay for it.

            1. Starbuck*

              That still seems iffy if it’s displayed on city property with city approval. My guess is they just haven’t been sued about it yet, so they think it’s fine? But I doubt it really would pass muster.

              1. Wayward Sun*

                I think under current US law that’s fine as long as other groups also have the same opportunity — for example, if a Jewish group wanted to raise money for a giant menorah. This can quickly become impractical — the Satanic Temple has had a great deal of fun with this.

                1. Lilo*

                  There was one year that the only group for a Florida Capitol display was a festivus poll.

                  Basically they have to turn it into a viewpoint neutral public square.

                2. Wilbur*

                  This is the case in Illinois-the Satanic temple has had a holiday display in the capital rotunda for the last few years. The crocheted snake and apples were pretty cute. No displays last year, supposedly because of construction but some groups were getting increasingly more vocal and upset about it. Saw a few news reports where the interviewed people on the street-“I support their (the Satanic Temple) freedom to do this, I just don’t think it should be somewhere so visible to other people!”

          2. ItsAllFunAndGamesUntil*

            I want to say it was specifically displaying a crèche even if you had a menorah present. As they tried “well we added a menorah too!” as an end around, but that still didn’t cut it. So now there’s a tree and menorah at the City-County Building and the crèche is 2 blocks down the street in the plaza of an office tower as it is private property.

            1. Lilo*

              Yes because endorsing religion over non religion is (or at least was) equally a violation. So being religiously inclusive doesn’t overcome the issue.

    4. Account*

      Yeah it’s like when the post office says “Mail your gifts by Dec 18 to ensure arrival by the holidays.” Like… there’s only one thing taking place on Dec 25; it isn’t “the holidays” and that’s a really lame attempt at being inclusive.

      1. cal*

        this year Chanukkah also starts on December 25, but I get your general point!

        For LW2, maybe pick a secular winter holiday to dress as? For example, apparently December 4 is Wildlife Conservation Day, National Sock Day, National Cookie Day, Cabernet Franc Day, National Package Protection Day, and National Dice Day. And that’s just one day! If you and your coworkers each picked something celebrated on the day of your holiday party I think that would be a funny way to comply with these silly rules.

      3. metadata minion*

        Yes! I once got a message like that from one business or other that even included “Christmas or Hannukah”…several days after Hannukah ended. I realize it’s hard to keep track of, I can never remember off the top of my head and I’m actually Jewish, but this is what the internet is for.

      4. Nodramalama*

        Are you sure it’s to be fake inclusive instead of encompassing the period up until new years? That’s what the ‘holiday period’ refers to in Australia

    5. Bruce*

      Funny thing, I was visiting a vendor in Japan the week before Christmas one year, and they really like to throw a Christmas party! Cafeteria was set up with beer, all sorts of food, and they had a drawing for door prizes. The top winner got a really nice electric bike and they were VERY happy with it. The finale was a performance by local dance troupe, their repertoire ranged from Martha Graham modern dance to a high-kicking chorus line of women in Santa’s Elf outfits that was like a small scale Radio City Music Hall show. It was surreal and a fun time :-)

      1. Nodramalama*

        Well that was actually why I chose Japan as an example, because a lot of Japanese people love celebrating Christmas and Santa (see KFC at Christmas time) but in Japan it is almost entirely commercial and not related to Christianity because Christianity is not a majority religion in Japan

      2. Mameshiba*

        It usually coincides with the year-end party, which predates the import of Christmas and is for bidding farewell to the year. Year-end-new-year is the big holiday that people actually have off and celebrate with family.

        Nowadays people who do Christmas in Japan have adopted it from the commercial and cheesy celebrations seen in other countries. Also in the process of adopting Halloween, Black Friday, and a bit of Easter for the same reasons: decorations and consumer sales.

    6. another fed*

      I think non-religious only means snowmen and snowflakes, maybe log cabin-themes, which in fairness is seasonal more than holiday.

    7. tamarack etc...*

      TBH for “non-religious holiday attire” I’d think of like a festive (shiny material) blouse, or some sort of wreath on the head, or Indigenous regalia, or a suit.

      2. Solstice (ironic name this time)*

        A wreath on the head is actually pretty open reference to St. Lucia’s Day celebrations.

    8. Ellie*

      Yeah, a friend of mine once went to an end of year holiday party dressed as Jesus. He took a fake plastic sheep with him, that he bought from a sex shop because apparently it was the only fake sheep he could find. He’s probably the reason why they feel they have to issue poorly worded instructions like this. It means don’t come wearing anything that would offend most Christians.

    9. Robin*

      Honestly, after reading the discussions here, there is nothing at all related to the concept of winter in any way that I would firmly class as “not religious”. (I’m Neopagan, but basically the kind that someone here described last year as “Christians with a different tree”.) Possibly snow depending on context, but I wouldn’t push it.

  10. yvve*

    Related to the coworker questioning the paper folding tool, that I recently applied the general advice from here to a coworker who was commenting on how easily I got cold every time I used my coat/handwarmers in the office. I realized I had never actually said anything about it! I tried very gently “You know, you say that every time, it’s not going to change!”, and… she completely stopped. I wasted a lot of time feeling weird about it instead of just gently mentioning that she was over-commenting. So I want to confirm that its often an issue of “have not actually communicated that this topic is annoying”, even when it seems like it should be really obvious that its excessive. (Possibly she may think its a “funny teasing” kind of thing?)

    1. allathian*

      Yes, this.

      People aren’t mind readers and some people are better than others at understanding non-verbal communication. Sometimes asking explicitly if the person realizes they ask the same question/say the same thing over and over is what it takes to shut it down. If that doesn’t help, a firm but polite request to stop is the next step, and if that doesn’t make the annoying questions stop, something like “You know what, I’m getting really sick of you questioning my work methods pretty much every time we meet, I’m done talking to you about this.”

      1. Artemesia*

        Some people are literally sort of automatons when it comes to small talk comments. They see X and they say Y — EVERY time. I used to be driven slightly nuts when I would drive my mother places as this intersection always got ‘this is where that wonderful flower shop used to be, such a shame to lose that’ and then 200 yard later ‘remember Gladys? She and I used to stop for ice cream sundaes here’. and on and on and on to every landmark.

        when you see someone every day and they have the same automatic response to something you do — that is what is going on.

    2. The OG Sleepless*

      I’m a tiny bit neurodiverse and I tend to think of the same story/comment/whatever every time something comes up. Occasionally, someone will gently point out that I say that thing every time. After I die inside for a second or two, I try my very best to never bring it up again.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Me too but it’s a necessary evil for small talk – if you insist on starting this chit-chat conversation, I only have my small mental folder of responses lol
        But also I find it really charming and comforting when other people do it (what Artemesia described above warms my heart, although I know it drives other people insane)

    3. Sparkles McFadden*

      Interacting with other people is a lot easier when you assume a benign reason behind odd behavior. Some people do think repeatedly making the same dumb critical comments is “office banter” and some people are just jerks at work.

      I agree that you should be clear in saying “This is annoying, so please stop.” After that, I, personally, move on to this: “Allow me to explain. Shut up.”

  11. Zelda*

    The obvious answer for #2 is sparkle. Black sweater with sequins. Silver Lurex. Metallic gold necktie. So festive, yet non-specific.

    1. Nodramalama*

      Yeah, maybe the way to think about it is, what would you wear for an end of year New Years party and head that direction.

    2. Educator*

      No doubt that particular invite is hypocritical, but there are definitely secular winter holidays that people can dress up to celebrate! New Year’s throughout much of the world, Thanksgiving in the US, Kwanza if culturally applicable.

      My favorite example–I once attended a Black Friday party where everyone wore the newest item in their closet. Very fun, no religion required.

      The writer’s employer needs to swap out the tree for a snowman and skip the gifts, but there are festive ways to celebrate the end of the year without anything religious. Plenty of organizations do. Dressing up like the Time Square ball is an excellent strategy. Sparkle!

      1. Double A*

        Oh, but Thanksgiving is a genocidal colonialist holiday and Western New Years erases Lunar New Year. It’s all problematic, don’t you know?

        Personally I wish we could all celebrate all the holidays. Coming together at various solar and lunar occasions is a human universal across all cultures; feasting together and giving gifts are other human cultural universals. It would be nice if we could celebrate all celebrations of togetherness and generosity. We need more of it.

        1. Nodramalama*

          I don’t really think “Western” new year erases Lunar New year any more than “normal” Easter erases Greek Easter. They’re different holidays celebrated at different times.

          1. Nodramalama*

            Edit: in fact my analogy is not right because Greek easter and Easter are functionally the same holiday. But most (all?) countries that celebrate Lunar New Year also have public holidays on Jan 1, so it’s certainly not erasing it.

            1. Not on board*

              “Greek Easter” is really “Orthodox Easter” as there are a number of Orthodox Churches that are slightly different from each other. Russian, Greek, Ukranian, Serbian…..
              And the reason Easter is different is the way that Easter is calculated – I believe the Catholic (and by extension, Protestant, etc.) Church uses astral calculations. The Orthodox churches use Passover – as the last supper was the last day of Passover, so they don’t believe that Easter should be celebrated until after the start of Passover. It’s all arbitrary, not saying one or the other is better. It also means that sometimes Orthodox Easter and Regular Easter are on the same day.

        2. Samantha Parkington*

          I mean, I simply don’t want to celebrate religious holidays outside my own faith and I’m sort of not supposed to anyway, and people from outside the faith aren’t supposed to either.

          This “come on, be a good sport and go along with it” stuff is so weird. It really feels like a conversion tactic. Do people get extra afterlife points if they convince me to eat a Christmas cookie?

        3. Educator*

          What an absurd dose of whataboutism and cultural erasure. Makes me glad I work for an organization that does this the right way–by giving everyone floating holidays to use for their religious and cultural celebrations (or just random Tuesdays!), and keeping the celebrations we have together truly secular. Respect is really not that hard.

          1. Bird names*

            Maybe not, but then they couldn’t complain how they are being personally attacked by others refusing to wear/celebrate/gift around their completely “harmless” hegemonic holidays.

        4. ShanShan*

          This is pretty disingenuous.

          First of all, Thanksgiving is a particularly bad holiday. You couldn’t even come up with a comparable second example and had to make up a debate about New Years that doesn’t exist.

          Second of all, no one is complaining about people celebrating Christmas. Some of us just don’t want to personally do it. We’re very happy when other people do it as long as they don’t make our participation a required part of our jobs.

          This is that same “everyone is offended by everything” stance that is really just an excuse to not listen to the very specific and reasonable things real people are actually saying.

        5. Bruce*

          When I visit Malaysia my coworkers there joke about how they celebrate ALL THE HOLIDAYS, and from what I can tell they do. Christmas is a huge thing as far as decoration is concerned, but Eid is time for huge feasts. I realize there are tensions there but most people seem to see it as a way to reinforce the social contract… It does make for a lot of days off!

          1. Jenesis*

            It’s really disappointing because in many ways, US Thanksgiving is my perfect holiday – it’s not tied to a specific religion, cultural group (I imagine there are SOME nonzero number of people who think we should be “honoring the Pilgrims” or somesuch at TG, but I’ve never met any), or family status; it’s a long weekend (at least in my state) that doesn’t move around, so people are maximally likely to be free; and the only thing you have to do to “celebrate” is show up and eat a bunch of food. I can’t think of any other quite like it.

        1. Holiday OP*

          Yeah, this question was more of a callout of a facepalm-worthy decision than actual confusion. I can be socially awkward, but it was clear enough what they meant. I just didn’t feel I had standing to (more politely than I did here) call the problematic wording out to my employer while I’m as new as I am, so I wanted another outlet.

          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            Yeah. Snowflakes would probably be “holiday” enough for them while actually just being seasonal, if you want to go that route.

    4. HE Admin*

      My go-to for all holiday parties as a non-religious of any denomination type is “sparkles or snowflakes.”

    5. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, my job has in the past specifically said that theme for our December party is winter wonderland or something, and the optional dress code is white, ice blue, silver, like that. People just wear whatever, but you don’t see a lot of Christmas Sweaters tm.

    6. Margaret*

      Did the specify which holiday? Go Fourth of July! Or do a Monica with a turkey on her head for Thanksgiving! Or really anything from the “Girl for All Seasons” production number in Grease 2.

  12. Small mind*

    like, just bring a reusable water bottle to work or drink out of a coffee mug. am i missing something?

    1. Malarkey01*

      Yeah, this seems like one of those interesting to think about the nuances of regulation language, but you would be thought insane if you told your employer or reported to OSHA that your work was requiring you to bring a cup from home in violation of water requirements.

    2. Generic Name*

      I feel like there’s other stuff going on with the work environment that they aren’t happy with overall but this is one thing they can latch onto. OP, I’d spend some time thinking about if you’re happy with your job overall and if not if there’s anything you can do to change that.

    3. WaterWaterEverywhere*

      I don’t know – every place I have worked has provided glassware. What do they do for guests? Oh, Mr. VIP of Company we are courting, you did not bring a glass with you? No soup (water) for you! 1 year!

      It seems reasonable and easy to provide the basic things that make the office amenities usable for everyone.

      1. HSE Compliance*

        I have yet to work at a place that provides glassware in the office areas. (mixture of government + industrial)

    1. Paint N Drip*

      Objectively, bone folders work better (have you ever folded something and then gotten the million little ripples? AGONY) and have an extremely satisfying schhhhhhhk sound when used proficiently

  15. Winter*

    #4 the company has provided drinking vessels. If employees have lost them it seems totally reasonable that they should buy a new one. I don’t see why this is even a question.

    1. Emmy Noether*

      I think paradoxically, providing a bottle once can create the expectation that the employer is responsible for providing it forever (like they would be for actual work implements, such as pens, that get lost).

      I don’t think they should, to be clear. It’s entirely resonable to bring your own water receptacle.

      1. HSE Compliance*

        It absolutely does. We had an event at a facility I used to work at where we bought literally everyone (1000+ employees) a water bottle. We were *very clear* that we are not going to continue to provide them. If you want another one with the company logo splashed on it, you are free to purchase a second bottle. It took literally 3 days for people to lose their bottle and then ask for another free one.

        This was an industrial setting, but we had a lot of office space/staff. In regards to OSHA, accessibility is the important thing, so if there’s drinking fountains within a reasonable distance, this isn’t going to go anywhere as an OSHA complaint. I say this as someone who has spent far, far too much time on water accessibility, because we were looking at how to balance the risk of having water bottles on the plant floor with heat concerns. (In the industry I used to be in, enclosed liquid like this was a legitimate significant safety hazard.) We ended up allowing water bottles to be stored in certain protected locations, just not at the workstation directly for some areas. But there is no obligation to provide receptables for said water, only the ability to access it to drink it.

        1. HSE Compliance*

          **Forgot to note that it does need to be checked if this particular employee is actually providing a drinking fountain vs one of those jug doohickeys, because those are very, very different. I’ve had people call what I could call a water fountain a dispenser, and vice versa, so I don’t rely much on other’s wording and prefer to put my own eyeballs on it.

    2. On Fire*

      The way I read the letter, it seems the higher-ups lost their own water bottles and are now pressuring their subordinates to surrender their (the subordinates’) water bottles. So who’s going to tell the bosses, “Bring your own cup; this one is mine”?

      1. Coverage Associate*

        This is why whenever my office gives us company branded stuff, I immediately take it back to my desk, pull out my sharpie, and write my name on the bottom. Then I might offer my sharpie to everyone else. (Paperless office, so sharpies can be hard to find)

        We have 3 people of the same gender and general size in my family of origin. Laundry without a name went back to the wrong bedroom, and at school the teachers and principals were always “write your name on your coats” etc. I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t do this.

  16. NoWater*

    I’ve actually worked at a company that didn’t supply drinking water to employees, although it did have a single sink with non-drinkable water.

    It was a venture funded start up and our office was literally a glass walled conference room inside the funding company’s office. It had a small pull out fridge (one step up from a cube fridge) next to the sink. We eventually got a microwave after multiple complaints. Apparently it was legal because the larger office had all the things, but we weren’t allowed to use them.

    1. Cassandra*

      Yeah, I had no idea this was a rule! I worked in a small warehouse (there were like 5 employees total at any given time) with zero potable water anywhere. But that’s probably the least wrong thing they did there, haha

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      This seems like the set-up for all-out war. Stealing the sugar packets would be the least of it.

    3. Wilbur*

      I’m going to guess that it wasn’t legal. They haven’t really provided drinking water if you’re not allowed to use it.

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      That does not sound legal.

      My previous employer wanted to “go green” (which really meant saving money) by eliminating single-use paper products. However, HR explicitly stated that we were required to provide cups because our bottle-refilling station didn’t qualify as a drinking fountain under legal requirements for providing access to drinking water. (For context, our refilling station wasn’t connected to a hallway drinking fountain—it was a kitchen unit that dispensed filtered hot and cold water but didn’t have a spigot for direct drinking.) Their solution was to purchase a large number of glass cups to be washed in the dishwasher. In practice, most people brought their own water bottles, but it was nice to have the glass cups as a backup option.

    5. Wayward Sun*

      I’m pretty surprised an office building would have non-potable water. Was this outside the US?

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Old building maybe? The water may have been potable when it left the treatment plant, but considered not safe to drink after going through old corroded pipes.

        My city’s downtown has a huge problem with galvanized steel pipes in its old buildings. In some cases that I’ve seen with my own eyes, black/discolored water comes out of the tap. Ew.

      2. Nightengale*

        I’m not convinced the hospital where I work has potable water

        I live in the same city as the hospital and drink tap water
        But when I tried to fill my water bottle from the tap at work, it was pretty brownish
        Fortunately they do provide a fountain that has a water bottle filing thing
        because the only other option would be the single use bottles our office has which I can’t open myself and the tops are too narrow for me to drink from. So I would have to ask someone to open for me and then I could transfer the water into my reusable bottle that I am able to open and drink from.

    6. Griffen Diore*

      Where were you located such that the sink water was non-potable? In the US, Canada, and most of Europe it would be very odd to see non-potable water piped to a sink.

      1. Not Australian*

        The US was where I learned to drink bottled water, when the taps at my hotel were churning out something that looked like raw sewage…

      2. NotUncommon*

        It’s rare that the water is completely unusable (not safe for bathing, eyc) but there are lots of places in the US where the tap water isn’t safe to drink, especially in very rural or very urban areas. My parents had to put in all sorts of expensive treatment and filtering to be able to safely drink their water in upstate NY and it still tasted awful. I’ve lived in several places in northeast cities that had boil first before drinking orders for tap water and a couple that would teeter on the edge of safe/unsafe which didn’t inspire confidence when it was supposedly safe.

        1. VivaVaruna*

          As a lifelong resident of Upstate NY, this is pretty disingenuous. Boil water orders only come when there’s been something like a water main break; it’s not something that people have to do constantly. And sulfur well water smells gross but it’s perfectly safe to drink as long as it’s been filtered, same as any well water.

  17. Higher-ed Jessica*

    For LW4, does it depend on the nature of the water-providing contraption? the OSHA language Alison quoted said “dispense drinking water from a fountain,” but the LW said “water dispensers.”
    I’m not sure what that means, but if it’s the typical office kind with the big 5-gallon jug on top, or any other kind of thing that dispenses the water downward, with the expectation that it’s going into a cup or bottle or some kind of receptacle, that seems very different from the traditional water fountain/drinking fountain/bubbler that shoots the water upward so you can bend over and put your mouth right to the water. I would think that providing a water dispenser with no drinking vessels might only count if it’s the kind you can drink from directly without needing a drinking vessel.

    1. Mutually supportive*

      That would make loads of sense – hence the clear requirement for cups to be provided when using a “covered container”

    2. anon24*

      Yeah, it seems to me that per the wording cups need to be provided since the water is coming from a dispenser and not a fountain you would drink right out of. Would it really be that big of a deal to just put a few reusable cups by the water dispenser and ask all employees to use their water bottles unless they don’t have it for some reason and keep the cups as backup for those who don’t have one?

      1. bamcheeks*

        Reusable cups mean someone has to be responsible for washing them, in a way that they’re not if bottles etc belong to individuals.

          1. Elsa*

            In my current office there is a dishwasher. After you use a communal plate or cup you put it into the dishwasher. The cleaning lady runs the dishwasher as needed and puts away the clean dishes. In past places where I worked you were just expected to wash your own dish or cup after using it.

        3. Allonge*

          Yes, bringing with it the question if there is a sink with water at least suitable for washing dishes in it (if there would be, why the water container?) and the evergreen who left the kitchen a mess question.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      That’s what I was thinking. The requirement sounds like it’s structured so that an employer has to provide water *that the employee can drink*. If someone has forgotten their personal drinking container, or had it stolen, or had to give it to someone else, then there isn’t actually water they can drink, hence the requirement for a fountain, a dispenser with provided cups, or individual bottled water.

    5. Ginger Baker*

      Came here explicitly to say this. It is not reasonable (nor would be acceptable!) for employees to put their mouth under the downward-facing spigot (likely at a low level also) of a water *dispenser* so it therefore does not qualify as a water *fountain* and runs afoul of the rules – seems very clear to me!

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Except the rules allow for single-use bottles, which the LW acknowledges are an option at their office.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          presumably the office decided that giving the bottles once and then having them available for purchase means they’re covered (and frankly, I tend to agree)

  18. DisclosingDisability*

    OP5, I used to hide a mention of my disability in a non-obvious place on my resume back when I had space for it because I was so afraid of the brush back from not disclosing. All that it did was create a few awkward (likely illegal) moments with those folks who noticed and then asked illegal questions about it. It didn’t happen often but it did happen and I never got one of those jobs. You could say I dodged a bullet, except often these were folks who were peripheral to the job or otherwise unlikely to have too much influence over my day to day job. I eventually took it off and go out of my way not to disclose unless absolutely necessary.

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      This is pretty much how I operate too, unless I need accommodations at the interview. I used to be upfront all the time about it but there’s a lot of bias out there.

      Sadly the instant I walk in with my cane the jig is up anyway. I wish there were a way to be different from the ‘norm’ that didn’t require one to have the steel barriers up at all time against the world.

    2. Merry and Bright*

      Since I don’t want to disclose my disability, I opt out (or choose the “do not wish to disclose” option) on all the demographic data on job applications, as well as the disability question.

    3. Edwina*

      Yeah, I don’t think we should make it easy for employers to discriminate against us, even if it might be unintentional.

      The first time I came across the “do you have a disability” question on an application, I really wasn’t sure what to do. It seems like a bad idea to lie on a form related to employment, so I can see how others are confused, too. I decided it was none of their business and assumed that if it came up later, no one was going to go look at my application to see what I said then.

      1. Kelly L.*

        *For the most part*, and I’m not saying there are no employers who are unethical about this, but the way it’s supposed to work (in my experience) is that the disability data goes to a whole different office, without your name attached, while the actual employment stuff goes to the hiring manager. The disability info isn’t used in your hiring process, it’s used by the organization as a whole to make sure they’re not discriminating against people with disabilities in their recruitment.

    4. Ann Onymous*

      I work for a company that is required to disclose the demographics of its employees, and I’m always a bit unsure what to do with the disability question. I have a condition that is actually listed as one of the examples of a disability in the question, but I’ve never considered myself to be disabled.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        My old job caused me to develop a disability. I applied for work at my new job under disability applying, so I had to disclose I had something anyway. My boss is absolutely lovely about it, especially since I started having problems right after the election.

        That said, sometimes I’m not sure if I’m disabled myself? I had a handicapped parent so I tend to think of disability as “I can’t work” or something physical, not “my job caused my brain to have problems.” Most of the time I’m doing better since I’m not being told how awful I am all the time any more, so I’m never sure.

      2. Wayward Sun*

        I have that same dilemma. Especially since my condition has been disabling at some times but not at others.

    5. OP #5*

      OP #5 here! Thank you (and everyone on this thread) for sharing and relating. The job market in my field is dismal and I was definitely stressed out about this!

      1. Nah*

        I was enrolled in one of those government “get the disabled people into jobs” and was explicitly coached to answer no and not disclose any of my disabilities until I was already working the job and needed accommodations. it didn’t work out in the long term (my physical disability became, well, even more disabling, and no one will hire a worker that can only be there 4-5 hours max and has to sit the whole time) but it was The Known Thing even at this government program that you keep that info secret until absolutely the last moment, because many places will discriminate and not hire if they know you need basic accommodations beforehand. Gross as hell, and sucks we live in this kind of society, but that’s where we are right now. :\

        1. Paint N Drip*

          oh that really sucks to hear, presumably they’re the most familiar so I’d tend to trust that advice

  20. Sparrow*

    LW #1, the following two points are both assuming that the tool you described is the plastic version of a bone folder (if it’s something totally different, ignore this):

    1) This is a really weird thing for your coworker to get hung up on, since bone folders (whether actual bone or plastic) are an extremely normal part of bookbinding/zine making/anything else that includes folding paper, and they are very widely regarded as the best way to get a polished, professional fold that’s just not attainable with fingers alone.

    2) Is it possible that your coworker is familiar with this type of tool and believes your version is made of bone, and her snark is coming from a place of viewing tools made out of bone as unethical? That might explain her weird fixation on it, though I think this would still be really weird of her (I personally vastly prefer the ones made of bone for a lot of reasons, but even outside of preference or what individual people think of using tools made from animal parts, I think this falls pretty squarely into “she’s being rude” the same it would be if, say, a vegetarian was being rude at a coworker for eating a turkey sandwich.)

    It is also entirely possible that that’s not what’s going on at all—I have certainly had coworkers who just cannot seem to fathom the idea that anyone would ever do anything even slightly differently than the exact way they like to do it—but as someone who works regularly with both bone folders and other materials made of bone, I’ve also certainly experienced people getting weird around those, so I wanted to flag this as a possibility.

  21. Anonychick*

    I am absolutely not certain of this, so please don’t take my word for it, but I have the feeling that the phrase “drinking water from a fountain” in this context refers to water from a machine that dispenses drinkable water in such a way that no vessel is needed for sanitary drinking; a machine designed so that one can drink the water directly from the machine without their mouth touching anything but the stream of water. In other words, a water fountain/drinking fountain/water bubbler/etc. (In NYC, we call it a water fountain, but it’s one of those terms that’s highly regional.) So I don’t think a water dispenser that requires the use of cups would qualify, unless the job site also provided single-use cups of some type (paper/plastic/etc), in which case it would qualify as the second type (“a covered container”).

    1. Myrin*

      Yeah, I suspect the use of “fountain” specifically actually carries its exact meaning in the OSHA ruling; it doesn’t say “faucet” or “tap” or “spigot” or whatever else contraption where water falls straight down, and that seems intentional in this case.

    2. londonedit*

      Yes, I’d assume ‘water fountain’ to be one of those things where you press a button and water comes out in a sort of arching stream, and you drink directly from the stream of water. I suppose you could fill a bottle from it, but it’s designed for people to drink straight from it without needing a cup. ‘Water dispenser’ to me would be one of those machines where there’s a recess for your bottle or cup to sit in, then you press a button, or depress a little lever, and water comes out and into the receptacle. You’d have a hard time drinking directly from one of those. I’m not an expert on any kind of law, let alone US workplace law, but my reading of it would suggest to me that unless the OP’s workplace has drinking fountains that don’t require cups or bottles, they might be breaking the law.

    3. Nina*

      I’m fascinated by the prescriptivism of the OSHA requirements – where I’m from health and safety laws are written in a way that specifies the required end result, and the company can reach that end result however they like.

      So we have ’employers must provide access to fresh clean drinking water’, which has been interpreted in court to include ’employers must provide a reasonable way to drink the water, or they have not provided access to the water’. The normal way of achieving that is providing a collection of reusable cups in the break area near the water, but providing reusable water bottles (and ‘single use’ water bottles that are in practice reusable) is also pretty common.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          But doesn’t it seem weird that you get one drinking receptacle for life? Not one per year, not a cupboard with a bunch of branded extras you can grab if you need one?

          1. Nina*

            A previous employer gave out very nice metal water bottles with your name engraved on them, and it was a point of pride that your water bottle got dented and chipped over time. I don’t recall replacements being available, but there were cups and plastic bottles so you weren’t left parched if you lost your water bottle.

          2. sparkle emoji*

            Plenty of people complain about getting too many water bottles in company swag(other threads today are discussing this). Giving out a water bottle every year would lead to most employees having a pile of extras for the sake of the handful of people who misplace them. Extras would be nice for those people but they could also go buy a different reusable bottle that’s noticeably different so it doesn’t get lost as easily. If only company bottles are allowed that would be different but that’s not mentioned in the letter.

          3. Jennifer Strange*

            But doesn’t it seem weird that you get one drinking receptacle for life?

            Not really? Drinking vessels are so incredibly cheap that it doesn’t seem that onerous for the employee to provide their own if they lose the one given to them. We’re not talking about only being given one computer for the entire time you’re with the company.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      This is how I interpret it as well. There has to be a means of drinking the water provided. It’s interesting that single use cups are actually called out specifically, but LW could certainly point at that OSHA does specifically require single use cups be provided if the water isn’t a water fountain.

  22. Definitely not me*

    LW #1 – My dad and several uncles were all printers so I spent a lot of time in the family print shop as a kid, 50+ years ago. My parents called them “folding bones” (actually made of bone) but bone folder seems to be the more common name today. I spent many, many, many hours using them to help out in the shop over the years. They were an absolute necessity when folding heavier stock, like covers for the annual county fair programs. We did it all by hand. My mom, who ran the bindery department in the shop, wouldn’t dream of folding any weight of paper with her bare fingers-! Tell your weird coworker that your grandfather was a printer (a white lie never hurt anyone) and this is how it’s always been done in “the business.” And that she could do a quick Google search if she doesn’t believe you.

    1. N C Kiddle*

      I get how this would be very enjoyable in the moment, but I think it’s just prolonging the interaction and conceding to the Co worker that this is a valid subject for discussion. A boring response that shuts it down would work better.

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I like the idea of telling the coworker that this is the professional way to fold paper, that this is how it’s done “in the business.” Return condescension to sender.

  23. Dry Cleaninfn*

    re. folding paper: If it is, indeed, made from bone, run your finger along the edge and say, while gazing off into the distance, “You know, someone else used to ask me this all the time, too…”

    Serious answer: repeatedly handling paper like this does wear the skin on your hands, like you say (and with some materials you can wear off your fingerprints!) Your coworker is being ridiculous and needs to find a new hobby. If this is part of a larger pattern with them, document it and consider raising it with a supervisor.

    1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

      Bleh comment posted by thumbs. Especially if it’s a larger pattern of her paying close attention to your work and hassling you while you are trying to do something – I would not be surprised if she was neglecting her own duties.

    2. iglwif*

      repeatedly handling paper like this does wear the skin on your hands, like you say

      Yes, when I was young I had a job that was heavy on the handling of paper — making copies, sending things by mail, opening incoming mail, handling paper proofs — and I have never had so many paper cuts or needed so much hand cream in my LIFE before or since. A bone folder wouldn’t have helped me with most of these tasks but I’d have loved some way of avoiding the consequences of all that hands-on-paper action.

  24. Sleeve McQueen*

    LW 3 – to avoid situations like yours, I make sure I drill down for more details. eg if someone says “I want to get off the Llama account and onto the teapot account” I usually explain that I will see what I can do and ask if it is a “this needs to happen immediately” vs “this is something we are working towards” and then if its the latter, check in to see if that has changed.

    1. r..*

      Trying to reduce the potential for misunderstandings by soliciting input from your report is always good, but honestly in this case the manager should’ve erred on the side of urgency.

      The employee basically fired their previous manager, for one should assume are good and important reasons to them. Given that circumstance I don’t quite see how one gets to the “ah surely the employee won’t mind the 8 hours they still work for their ex-boss for months or years” as a default assumption.

      Also, where were the 1:1s? I am kind of puzzled why the employee was not given updates on this before, only at the anual eval. My intuition is that if there were good, well-conducted 1:1s the topic should’ve been brought up once or twice, and it would have been in the letter. Hence my suspicion is that there were no such meetings before the eval.

      1. LW3*

        In trying to keep the letter somewhat short, I have not mentioned the 1:1s. And yes we did have 1:1s where I mentioned my unhappiness. Maybe not every single time, but often enough. I also e-mailed about specific situations that occured with my old manager to have a paper trail.

        The updates were always that it would be reviewed at my eval and hopefully by then my contract would be changed. About a month before my eval, I did tell my current manager that if push came to shove, I would be willing to have my contract changed to 24 hours if they wouldn’t be able the up the hours of the new job. She seemed startled at the time, but apparently not startled enough.

  25. Adam*

    For #3, I think the timing is important here. If you had told your new manager that you would want to switch to 24 hours a week six months ago, but hadn’t brought it up in the meantime, it’s not unreasonable that either she forgot or she assumed you’d figured out some way to be okay with the situation. Six months is a long time. (Obviously, if you had brought up your unhappiness with still having to work with your old manager during that time, this doesn’t apply.)

    1. OP didn't want 24h*

      I read it differently.
      OP could work 32h, but the new job did offer only 24h, so OP was stuck for 8h in the old job they wanted to get away from. As it is also a budget thing, I would not have assumed to get approval for new job to be increased to 32h very soon. It would have made sense to have one or two check-ins how the decision is going, but I can understand that OP chose to wait.

  26. Emmy Noether*

    I have a different bone to pick with the employer of #4 (waterdispenser).

    I’m 100% for avoiding disposable anything whenever possible, and I’d be very irritated at seeing people throw away their 20th disposable cup of the day, every day, so this initiative seems good to me.

    But this also feels kind of like it may be greenwashing. Is this employer also doing anything for the environment that takes actual effort and makes an actual impact, or is it all feel-good initiatives with branded water bottles? Employees may be more willing to make a personal effort if it’s part of a larger common effort.

  27. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    2. Cultural differences aside (I’m in the UK) a Christmas party renamed to ‘holiday party’ at the exact same time of year and told to ‘not include religious stuff’ would get the biggest of eyerolls here and a lot of mocking.

    You don’t get office parties at Diwali! Or Sukkot. Etc.

      1. PP*

        Actually, culturally there are many ways peoples calculate the year. Here in the SF Bay Area, people do celebrate those various New Years.

        2. metadata minion*

          Sure, but especially given that my workplace operates on the Gregorian calendar, I have no problem celebrating both secular New Years and Rosh Hashanah. We also have an end-of-year party in May, because that’s the end of the academic year. And the fiscal year ends in June.

        4. FloralWraith*

          And as someone from a Hindu background, I can say with utmost certainty that in North America and the UK? The Hindu dispora communities celebrate both Diwali *and* Western New Year. We will live in the West, why wouldn’t we partake in both celebrations?

    2. The OG Sleepless*

      I live in an area with a fairly large Indian population, and I’d be totally down for a Diwali party.

  28. Bravo!*

    #3: I asked myself this question, this is such an annoying thing.
    But good for you for making your position clear and being able to change the situation!

  29. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #2 is a big reason why I definitely prefer “holiday/winter” parties in January .
    In December that is of course a Christmas party, even without any tree, presents, decorations, carols etc.
    It’s like your CEO putting on a false moustache and claiming noone recognises them like that – they’re not fooling anyone.

    1. Nodramalama*

      Lol in Australia our end of year parties are also summer, so nobody’s coming back in January to celebrate anything.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        So no need to have a “pretend it’s not Christmas” party in December. No problem if your end of year is not December

        1. KateM*

          Their end of year *is* December – it’s just their summer, not winter, so they would not have *winter* holidays.

        2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          So they can have a holiday party in January instead, to have a genuinely secular and inclusive celebration instead of just a pretend-secular one.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            Australians (at least those who are Christian) celebrate Christmas on December 25. It’s just that south of the equator, December- February is summer and June-August is winter.

          2. Silver Robin*

            Their calendar is exactly the same, their seasons are swapped. Rather than being the “peak” winter holiday, Christmas kicks off summer holidays for them. Because Jan is summer, everyone is on vacation, hence the comment about nobody coming back to celebrate. December is when enough folks will be consistently around to have a celebration, and thus will fall afoul of your suggestion.

          4. Nodramalama*

            I’m so confused lol. Australians celebrating December 25th as Christmas and January 1 as new years day just like the Northern hemisphere. But because we are in summer, most offices operate on a skeleton staff for a lot of January, so there would be no point having a holiday party in January.

            1. fhqwhgads*

              The confusing part for me was why you’d have a skeleton staff in January because it’s summer. We don’t have a skeleton staff in July, for example.

    2. not christian*

      My org is one of those ones that has a party with a Christmas tree and Christmas-themed activities like Christmas music bingo…. and then CEO corrects anyone who calls it a Christmas party, because it’s a HOLIDAY party….. eyeroll

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Agreed! Year-end is also a busy time at my job, so it would be GREAT to have the party in January, IMO.

    4. Hush42*

      My company moved the annual part to October several years ago. Our fiscal year ends in September anyway so it’s a fiscal year kick off party. No holidays get acknowledged at all, it never looks like we’re celebrating winter holidays, etc. Plus, even if you are a Christian who celebrates Christmas (I am), who has time to add *another* party to the insanity that is the holiday season (Thanksgiving through New Years specifically)? I love our company parties but I would certainly not love them if they were yet another thing I had to shove into my already over crowded December.

      1. nnn*

        Yeah, that’s the other thing. If your people celebrate Christmas (or some secular expy thereof), they likely already have multiple social obligations in December.

        And if their social calendar is wide open in December, that’s likely a strong indication they genuinely don’t celebrate Christmas.

        The new fiscal year is a great work-related time for a big annual party (“YAY, we survived end of fiscal!”), as is International [your profession] Day

      2. Lab Lady*

        That’s perfect — every few years you’re celebrating Rosh Hashannah! (or Sukkot, or some other element of the Jewish beginning of the year holiday extravaganza)

      3. HolidayScheduling*

        As long as you schedule it around the Jewish holidays, that sounds great. I’ve worked for bunches of orgs that had a talent for scheduling major events on the fall Jewish holidays.

    5. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      I suggested (and got approved) a ‘thank **** we survived another year’ party in January. I’m all for that.

    6. Coverage Associate*

      Except if it’s before December 25, for a lot of Christians, and before January 7 for others, the party is during what is supposed to be a penitential season. In my own Christian tradition, the library for the historic residence of our historic head prelate announced a Christmas party for early December, so I know this is a loosing fight, but every year I feel like opting out of all festivities before December 25, as a religious obligation.

  30. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, I’d stop explaining. You don’t need to justify yourself and it sounds like she’s just taking it as an invitation to debate with you as to whose technique is better. I’d keep it to “oh, I just prefer to use this,” and if she says she thinks using your finger is fine, something like, “oh, of course, if you prefer to do it that way. Whatever works for you.” Ideally with a smile.

    1. A Girl Named Fred*

      Agreed, any time she said anything from this point forward I’d default to the most boring versions of, “Yup,” “Mm,” and “-shrug-“ that I could. At best, she’s clueless and annoying. At worst, she’s trying to get a rise out of you, so don’t give her the satisfaction.

      (I may be assuming malice where there is none, but I get a vague undertone of, “This snowflake can’t just use their hands like the rest of us, I must point out how different and wrong their approach is,” from the coworker. Which, if true, responds well to the gray rock because it gives her fewer footholds to latch onto.)

  31. ElliottRook*

    RE #4: they’re giving out metal water bottles as the standard and that’s supposed to be more green? I’d be passing mine off to the first person who would take it, I’m flabbergasted that people are claiming to be “missing” theirs to the point that this is a problem to be solved. Metal affects the taste of water so much as to render it undrinkable, who wants to feel like they’re sucking on pennies as they’re trying to hydrate??

    2. Wayward Sun*

      Interesting. I find stainless steel basically flavorless. But I also grew up in an area with a ton of iron in the water, so maybe I’m just used to water tasting a bit metallic.

    3. metadata minion*

      I think either you’ve had poorly made water bottles or you’re very sensitive to the taste of metal. Metal water bottles are incredibly common.

    4. iglwif*

      I’ve used a wide range of stainless steel water bottles, and none of them has ever made the water taste bad. Are you sure it’s not the water?

  32. glt on wry*

    For LW2 – Alison is always my guide, but this time I have to say: Sometimes people are only floating and gasping and they don’t know exactly how to swim.

    I think a lot of people of my generation (grew up in the ’70s with Christian parents/ major city in Canada) were introduced to the idea that there were other religions out there when we were kids, so we started to learn our beliefs weren’t exclusive. For some people in smaller towns, this was still new — I worked with someone in the late ’90s who didn’t know what a menorah was.

    I do believe that people are now trying to learn and acknowledge — it was a dominant culture, and the population can really be clueless about what might be offensive, especially if it’s a symbol that seemed innocuous. (Just for example, a snowman.) I know it looks like flapping instead of seamless strokes.

    I haven’t be tied religiously to Christmas for a long time, so basically celebrate it secularly as an end-of-year wind-down. What would you want the invitation to say that includes everyone for an end-of-year party? This is an honest question: How would you word the invite or set up the party?

    1. HannahS*

      How do you invite people to a party at any other time of year?

      Invitation: Come celebrate the year’s end! We will have free food and drinks during business hours. Come mingle with your colleagues and enter our raffle.

      Boss’ speech: It’s been a great year, everyone! Blah blah blah, thanking people.

      My department has a year-end party next week, and everyyear it’s literally food, drinks, and mingling in a conference room. The department head makes a speech thanking everyone for their hard work. The end.

      1. Ali + Nino*

        This is great! If the host insists on some kind of a special dress code – “dressy casual,” “spiffy,” “swanky,” “feel free to dress up if you like!” – all of those work. “Festive” is OK but maybe not ideal.

        I agree I would prefer to see (in Northern hempishere) either a winter or year’s end party versus holiday party, we all know the holiday = Xmas. Holiday season = Xmas. I don’t get worked up about it; I know I live in a Christian-majority country, and it just doesn’t actually affect anything that much, but if a host is aiming for inclusivity, I would avoid “holiday” anything.

        @glt on wry, thank you for your perspective. As a Jew who grew up with in a town with a considerable Jewish population (our public schools were closed for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur because so many teachers would be out those days), I definitely take it for granted and am always surprised when I meet people who don’t have what I would consider very basic knowledge about Judaism – but if they’ve never had reason to learn about it, that makes perfect sense. I also tend to believe that most people don’t intend to offend, which is generally a good rule for life!

      2. L*

        Something my org’s done that really shifts the atmosphere from “thinly-veiled Christmas party”, which it used to be, to genuine year-end party is to make it about the people who have retired in the past year. They’re all invited, their close colleagues make nice speeches again, we get to catch up with them as well as our coworkers from across the country who are in town for end-of-year meetings, eat nice food, drink if we want to, and then take the rest of the afternoon off.

    2. spcepickle*

      I put the question back on you – Why celebrate the “end of year”? It is an arbitrary marker, while also being a time of year that many people are very busy. My office does a big potluck in February, because of the nature of our work it is normally a slow time of year, because of where we live it is often gray and gross. It makes it easy to enjoy time with each other, have something fun to do, and we can still decorate with snow flakes or what not. But not a whiff of Christmas.

      If you want to celebrate in your personal life the wording below is great. I also will sometimes throw a solstice party (which can be tricky because there are religious ties there as well) to celebrate the return of more daylight.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Step 1: call it an end-of-year party, not a “holiday” party.
      Step 2: no holly, lit trees, wreaths, stockings, Santa, elves, reindeer (and the bit I think should be obvious but experience tells me somehow isn’t: no manger, crosses, wise men)
      Step 3: no menorahs either, because that’s also for a holiday (a holiday I celebrate), and this isn’t a “holiday” party, right? It’s an end-of-year party.

      Word the invite: End-of-year Party on DATE at TIME. Dress code is BLAH. Join us to celebrate 20##! Food and drink will be served. Please include dietary restrictions or allergies in your RSVP. (and then make the RSVP form have separate lines or checkboxes for that)
      Set up the party: probably a buffet? Or food stations throughout whatever room it’s in. Work parties don’t really need “decoration”, IMO. Background music generic pop loud enough so you can tell it’s there but otherwise can’t reallllly hear it.

  33. General von Klinkerhoffen*

    LW3, I think Alison’s third suggestion is the most likely. Oh the shocked Pikachu face in my exit interview when I said I was going to an employer who would give me the requested hours on the preferred tasks. Turns out HR hadn’t even bothered mentioning it to the bosses.

  34. Spoony*

    #2: People are so weirdly attached to the idea of Christmas being secular! One time I was having this argument and I was like “you can’t have secular CHRISTmas, the clue is in the name” and the other person snottily replied they don’t worship Saturn on Saturdays either.

    I’m an atheist who sort of celebrates Christmas—on December 25, I’m not thinking much about the birth of JC, but funnily enough I’m not the protagonist of life. It’s like when native English speakers say “oh, I don’t have an accent.” Everybody has an accent, and every religious holiday has a religious orientation. This is a clunky analogy because there are secular holidays (independence days, labor days, etc) of course, but I’m struggling to think of a better one!

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        The one that’s based on the Gregorian calendar? The calendar drawn up by the Roman Catholic Church?

    3. HannahS*

      I actually really like your independence day analogy!

      Imagine working in an international company and proclaiming that Independence Day will be celebrating on July 4, by everyone, and it has nothing–NOTHING–to do with America. After all, most countries have an independence day, and many of them are in the summer so really, no one in the world would be excluded by celebrating independence day on July 4, since it’s really just celebrating the concept of independence. We’re not going to, like, read the Declaration of Independence, we’re just going to sing “this land is your land”–a song that does not mention the USA directly–and have burgers and wear red, white, and blue. No one could possibly feel alienated or excluded; this holiday is for EVERYONE.

      1. Silver Robin*

        1. agreed, great analogy

        2. this land is your land does, in fact, reference the US directly: “from California, to the New York island” is in the first verse
        2a. the fact that this song got this patriotic usage is really funny because one of the verses sneers at the concept of private property, which is just not allowable in mainstream American politics.
        “There was a big, high wall there that tried to stop me
        A sign was painted said “Private Property”
        But on the backside, it didn’t say nothing
        This land was made for you and me”

        1. HannahS*

          Ah, sorry, I’m actually Canadian and don’t really know that song well :)

          If it was a real example, I’d argue until I was blue in the face that New York and California are nice places to visit so mentioning it as part of this Independence Day celebration is in no way exclusive; why don’t you stand you and sing us a song from your country, all by yourself, while we all watch?

          (Just like, “But you can give and receive presents, everyone likes presents!” and “well, why don’t you bring in a menorah and teach us the dreidel song?”)

          1. Lizcase*

            there’s a Canadian version of the song that I learned (“from Bonavista to Vancouver Island”).. I had no idea the original was USA based for an embarrassingly long time.

    4. Bear Expert*

      American Thanksgiving is secular – its declared by the President, not based on a religious thing.

      New Years is secular (though calendars in general are difficult to pull apart from religions)

      Independence days, Juneteenth, Veteran’s Day, the weird Massachusetts Patriot’s Day, there’s a fun collection of non religious holidays, but fewer of them come with presents and a week off of school.

      Christmas ain’t it.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        I’m from Massachusetts and I think it’s weird that the other 49 states don’t celebrate Patriot’s Day!

    5. Curiouser and Curiouser*

      THIS! As a Jewish person (and I think Allison has referenced this idea before too) – I actually have no issue with the trappings of Christmas in the office as long as I’m allowed to decorate or participate as I see fit. By all means, put up your tree, hang the stockings, wear the Santa sweaters…just don’t call it secular. It’s fine, it really is, but the inclusivity comes in letting us all celebrate our own traditions/celebrations, not pretending one particular holiday is secular.

      1. iglwif*

        Also Jewish, absolutely agree!

        Celebrate all the Christmas you want! You should enjoy it in good health! Just don’t act like your holiday is everyone’s holiday when it isn’t.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah, real conversation I unfortunately had at work N jobs ago: if you want to give me a candy cane to eat I’ll gladly take it, but don’t hand me a stocking to stick on my desk.

  35. Kay*

    LW2, if the invite just said “holiday attire” I would be SO tempted to show up dressed for some other holiday. Like a Halloween costume or pink and red with hearts for Valentine’s Day.

    2. DramaQ*

      oooh you could dress as the Great Pumpkin from Charlie Brown!

      He rises from the Pumpkin patch to bring presents so it totally fits

    3. Kendall^2*

      I kinda want someone to show up in a matza dress. Matza is just a big cracker, after all, so it’s totally secular!

  36. Literally a Cat*

    1, is your coworker like that about everything, or somehow this is the hill she choose to die on? If she’s so invested on using fingers, she’s welcomed to do it herself

  37. Nina_B*

    #1: I read that as ..”handed me a stick..” and imagined your colleague like a stern teacher tapping their disapproval with it on the table you’re working/folding on! Lol

  38. Audrey Puffins*

    I would 100% just not fold any paper while my co-worker was standing there. I would thank her for the print-outs, then just sit looking at her until she leaves. And if she asks why I’m not folding yet, I would cheerfully tell her I am waiting for her to leave before I start. It is so weird that she cares so much about how you fold paper, and if you can say that to her face in a suitably breezy voice then I would recommend doing so

  39. Smurfette*

    OP1, your coworker reminds me of a toxic “friend” my mom used to have – we’ll call her Susan. They briefly shared an apartment and Susan criticised her constantly about such egregious issues as

    – using the “wrong” pot to cook rice
    – putting a facecloth over the bath plug when running a bath (to stop the stream of water from dislodging the plug)
    – drinking tea out of a mug instead of using a cup and saucer
    – dressing in a way that Susan didn’t like
    – putting the TV on the wrong channel or at the wrong volume
    – doing anything AT ALL differently from the way Susan thought it should be done

    This was more than 20 years ago but I still hate Susan.

    Your coworker is a bully. Personally I would antagonize her by
    – getting a fancier tool
    – storing it in a special container
    – using it ostentatiously
    – talking about a paper folding course I was doing

    You’d be better off just ignoring her though. Or if possible, make sure you fold the pamphlets when your other coworkers are around so that they can witness the lunatic behavior.

    1. Bird names*

      Yeah, I knew someone like that as well and never could wrap my head around their behaviour. One explanation I read was, that this behaviour might stem from anxiety and a perception that one lacks power (and therefore tries to seize it in whichever way presents itself).
      Both could have applied to this person. Mind, the above is not to excuse people behaving like that. It however means it is 100% something going inside that person which your reaction, no matter what it is, is not gonna change.

      Pick one strategy, LW, that makes sense to you and try to let it go as much as possible. If it weren’t you and your bone folder, she’d simply pick a different target and behaviour to get upset about.

    2. Wicked Smaht*

      Wait, there’s a difference between a mug and a cup? Is the former for coffee and the latter for tea? I never realized there was a distinction. Then again, I’m from Boston, where people have pretty much avoided tea ever since 1773, when they threw it in the harbor. No joke: to this day, coffee, not tea, is the preferred caffeinated beverage in Boston.

      1. doreen*

        The distinction isn’t in what you are drinking – it’s more in the shape. A mug usually has thicker , straight walls and is never used with a saucer. Coffee/tea cups are thinner and rounded – think of the teacup ride at an amusement park or the cups used to serve coffee at a restaurant.

      2. metadata minion*

        Think of a stereotypical fancy porcelain tea set for serving Fancy Tea Parties — those are tea cups, out of which one can also drink coffee if one is being very fancy. In a broader sense, if you want to talk about cups generically, I would consider mugs to be a type of cup, but that’s the sort of thing linguistics students have arguments about at three in the morning.

        1. Emily Byrd Starr*

          Ah, I see. Those kind of Tea Parties generally aren’t a thing where I live, except for little girls playing pretend with their dolls and Congregational churches paying homage to their British ancestors.

          1. metadata minion*

            Oh, I’m not sure I’ve ever actually *been* to a fancy tea party with real tea cups, and I definitely don’t own any. I just know what they are as a cultural artifact. If someone insisted I drink my tea from a teacup I would wonder if they’d wandered in from a portal to the 1890s.

        2. Emily Byrd Starr*

          BTW, I’m the person who wrote the comment you’re responding to. I just thought it would be fun to change my user name to something more Boston-oriented (because my usual screen name is a character from PEI). Then I changed it back when replying to another comment, and forgot to change it again when replying to your comment.

      3. Dinwar*

        “Is the former for coffee and the latter for tea?”

        Either can be used for both. A cup-and-saucer is considered fancier, so if you’re at a higher-end restaurant you’ll get coffee served in that instead of a mug.

        The Brits and Japanese folks I know drink tea out of mugs. For that matter, the Italians I know drink wine out of mugs. Turns out, there’s no actual rule against it. And while there may be elitist reasons for it (it’s a way to signal “upper class” as opposed to the unwashed masses), for the vast majority of folks any sort of cup, mug, glass, or drinking vessel works; it’s just a way to hold the liquids while you drink it. Mugs also have the advantage of typically being heavier, meaning they keep your drink warm/cold longer.

        1. Electric blanket*

          I don’t know any other British people who use teacups and saucers; they’re obsolete. In the days when tea was expensive, a small cup made sense. The saucer is good for spills and teaspoons, if you’re pouring at the table and making a ritual of the whole thing, like in a restaurant or at afternoon tea. My mum likes a small cup because she wants a high ratio of sugar to liquid, but even she will settle for a mini mug, and to make her drink in the kitchen where there’s no need for a saucer.

        2. Emmy Noether*

          I find that the material of the drinking receptacle does change the taste a bit, or at least the experience of the drink (and I believe there are studies to back that up). I prefer cold water or wine from glass and hot beverages from porcelain or stoneware, but I will take whatever is available and I will certainly not judge other’s choices.

    3. Dinwar*

      “– drinking tea out of a mug instead of using a cup and saucer”

      Why is it people feel that they can criticize you for drinking tea “wrong”?

      I like Lapsang souchong tea. Comes from childhood–Dad was a fire fighter, and smelling smoke meant Dad came home alive. And apparently that’s wrong because it…tastes like smoke, so I’m not supposed to enjoy it. And I hate cleaning, so I tend to use the method “Toss tea leaves in cup, put water on it, wait till the stuff settles, then drink”. It’s the oldest method out there, and it’s how people read tea leaves (I don’t do it, but divination is part of my religion). Plus, it has interesting implications for flood deposits–I’ve always wondered why leaf litter makes impressions when leaves float, and seeing this in action always makes me smile. Yet apparently none of that matters, I’m Drinking Tea Wrong.

      My reaction is to do it all harder. I’ve done the research, I know why I do things the way I do, and everyone else can just deal with it. Not like I’m making THEM drink it.

      2. metadata minion*

        I’m so baffled by the lapsang complaints. If nobody liked it, they wouldn’t make it! It’s not like it’s medicinal. It is definitely one of those love-or-hate things, but I don’t try to claim people are wrong for saying avocados are delicious.

      3. iglwif*

        I can’t drink lapsang souchong anymore — I started having a weird allergic reaction to something in it — and I miss it. It’s delicious! And the connection to your dad is beautiful.

        Idk why people insist on policing other people’s likes and dislikes.

  40. Despachito*

    LW 2 (the holiday attire) – I would play dumb and ask what exactly IS allowed and what ISN’T (of course because I want to adhere to the company rules and not offend anyone).

    The irony of that very invitation having a Christmas tree on it aside, perceptions what is and what isn’t “religious” can widely vary (from banning open proselytizing to banning reindeer, Santa hats or even red and green color) and how are you expected to guess which one is that your office adheres to?

    Another option that comes to my mind is that given that they themselves put a Christmas tree in the invitations they would not consider offensive symbols that are at the same level – i.e. clearly identifying as “Christmassy” (mistletoe, reindeer, Santa sweaters, or even the tree).

    Or, if you don’t want to spend up your bandwidth on that, opt out completely from the game – the (potential) prize is not worth the hassle.

  41. Benihana scene stealer*

    “No one would blame you if you sharpened that tool into a pointy weapon.”

    Prison Allison checking in

  42. Hyaline*

    #2, and on the flip side, there are winter holidays where very few people would see/understand the symbols or imagery to be non-religious so this directive basically said they cannot participate or represent their holiday. If you can show up in a Santa sweater but a menorah tie is off limits, there’s something icky about that.

  43. L-squared*

    #2 – I’m not against Christmas or anything for religious reasons. But I have a couple of ugly sweaters with nothing Christmas on them. One just has a fireplace, and another has a snowman. Also, you can often get the “ugly Christmas sweater look” on band sweaters, TV show sweaters, etc that have no actual christmas/religious imagery on them. So its not necessarily as hard as some people claim.

    #4. This seems like splitting hairs. I find it hard to believe bringing an extra cup in is some major inconvenience for people. They can reuse a plastic water bottle, bring in a plastic tumbler from home. Hell, they could go to the dollar store and buy one. I’m a lot more on your company’s side here (which I almost never am), because they provided things for everyone to start with. If you lose them, I don’t think providing single use paper cups is on them.

    2. For the Love of*

      It’s not that it’s HARD; it’s that I don’t regularly go to parties that Christmas sweaters (that’s wheat it was originally) are a thing, so for the one Christmas-themed (because it always is, even when it says “winter” or “holiday”) work party I’m forced to go to that’s also “ugly sweater” themed, I’m annoyed at having to buy more stuff. I just got invited to a “winter soiree” which had an invitation with Christmas stockings, holly, and Santa on it and an ugly sweater contest. If the invitation had been decorated with snow and said “festive attire” I would have shown up in sparkles, but I’m so turned off by the whole thing that I probably will just wear the most normal work clothes I have. I’m almsot equally tempted to go to a thrift shop and buy a sweater that has no theme whatsoever but is just ugly and just act like I didn’t understand the assignment. I’m just so burnt out by “secular Christmas”.

  44. Falling Diphthong*

    #3, a surprising amount of business practices seem to come down to hoping to get the sunk-cost fallacy working for you when dealing with employees or applicants.

    Like the OP who took a new job with the express condition that it come with a private office; a few weeks later they took the private office away because another manager was mad that the new person got one; she promptly quit. They were shocked, shocked.

    1. EngineeringFun*

      Yep! Second job out of school I was at an engineering contracting company. I interviewed for a position down the road with a $10k increase in salary for the same job. I went back to my boss and said I want more money or I’m leaving. Boss talked to higher ups and they said “great well give you a $1k raise.” I gave him the look. He came back with a $10k raise. I learned the power of leaving real fast.

  45. Kat*

    Lw1: next time she asks, instead of explaining again, ask the coworker if she has gone for a thorough medical exam to talk to her doctor about her forgetfulness. When she asks what you’re talking about, be totally sincere and say that you’ve had this conversation MANY times, but she clearly has NO MEMORY of it, because every time she asks as though you’ve never spoken about it before, and you’re concerned that this kind of forgetfulness can be a sign of serious medical issues. You can add that at first you thought it’s not your concern, but she kept asking about it and so you felt the only kind thing to do was to bring this to her attention so she can talk to her doctor.

    After that if she keeps asking about your preference to use a tool, just ask her again if she’s gone to her doctor. Or make a sad face and say “aw don’t you remember we had this conversation before?” Then don’t respond to her and do your own thing. A few times of making it constantly about her “forgetfulness” will cure her of her habit of commenting on this.

    1. Indolent Libertine*

      We are clearly kindred spirits, I made exactly this suggestion in a nested reply somewhere up thread!

  46. DisabilityDisregarded*

    I’m disabled and cannot use a dishwasher or handwash dishes. Offices that don’t have disposable cups, plates, silverware, etc. are a nightmare for me (before you ask, yes, I use disposable at home, including cooking vessels which are mostly limited to the microwave). I have worked in places where it was almost impossible for me to eat or drink at all because I have a limited ability to transport and/or no place to keep a personal stash of plates/cups/silverware. I may be able to use reusable items but I can’t clean them so then I become the person who leaves dirty dishes everywhere (and depending on how heavy they are, I may need help carrying plates, and I almost always would need someone to carry a mug because it won’t fit in my cupholder mechanism). I am all for saving the environment, but there needs to be a balance.

    This is just one of many ways the world has been getting less and less disabled friendly over the past 30+ years (some others: automation without an alternative, default font sizes getting smaller, lack of plastic bags with handles, etc) all while having better high level protections.

    1. different seudonym*

      Appreciate you mentioning it. I genuinely did not realize until I had a severe illness, but it is true: for plenty of folks, if there’s no paper cup (or straw in some cases) they can’t easily drink. it’s a matter of both safety and dignity.

    2. Ghostlight*

      What is a reasonable accommodation for you in an office? Does supplying you with disposable cups (and plates and cutlery if the office normally supplies those) work?

      In the same way that people need special chairs, etc, doesn’t that solve the problem of access for you while overall keeping with the goal of less waste and sustainability for those who can use reusable products?

      I feel like this is a different (and completely legitimate problem) than the one that OP mentioned. OP seems to be upset that there isn’t an endless supply of reusable water bottles if one is lost or forgotten while you have a legitimate need for accommodation.

      1. DisabilityDisregarded*

        It was more in response to all the comments saying the answer is to have reusable cups/mugs available than the OP directly.

        If a company were willing to do that, great in theory. But being able to eat/drink/etc at work isn’t actually a core work duty so most companies won’t do something thst will aggravate the pushy environmentalists. In my experience, offices that push reusable plates/cups/mugs also come with people who get rid of disposable options to try to force folks to be more environmentally friendly or refuse to admit that my right to eat/drink is more important than the environmental impact of the relatively small number of disposable items I’d be using. In addition to harassing me, they will harass the office manager buying this stuff and everyone else around me.

  47. Annony*

    #1: I would confront her directly next time. “Why does this bother you so much? While I am physically capable of folding paper with my fingers, using this is quicker, easier and protects my fingers. We already have the tool so it does not add any cost. Why are you against efficiency?”

    Of course the snarky part of me that should be ignored in professional settings would want start asking if she really needed random things in response to the questions of if I needed the folding tool. “Do you really need a car? Walking is better for you and more environmentally friendly. You should give it a try.” “Do you need shoes? Can’t you walk without them?”

  48. Steve*

    No one in any office is ever happy with whatever the decorations (or lack thereof) are for any holiday party – As an event planner, I dread this event and brace every year for the inevitable complaints.

  49. Anon in Canada*

    #3

    This isn’t related to the situation at hand here, but is absolutely related to the title:

    Why won’t employers believe that non-local applicants are indeed willing to move?

    Yes, I’m prepared to move. Yes, I want to move. Yes, I’ll move heaven and earth to be available to interview on short notice. Yes, I’ll pay my own way to interview. Yes, I’ll pay my own moving costs. Yes, I’ll be there in two weeks. Yes, I’ll stay at a motel until I can find long-term housing.

    But employers don’t believe that because (based on the wording used here) they think that “when push comes to shove, the candidate will back out”.

    Annoying as hell. There are plenty of people who do WANT to move, and will move heaven and earth to make it happen. But no, we can’t move without a job lined up, because either we don’t have enough money and/or work in a field that’s too niche to do that.

    1. doreen*

      I’m going to guess that the reason is that they have somehow been burnt before. My employer had multiple locations and people often wanted to transfer between them. People who were transferring 100 or more miles away were no problem – they moved or found a place to stay M-F and and went home on weekends. The problem was people who were transferring within commuting distance , who would often try to continue working out of the office closer to home.

      1. Anon in Canada*

        I’ve also heard of employers feeling “burnt” by long-distance applicants (coming from more than 2-3 hours away) who move for a job (and may very well have done everything to show up to the interview and start within 2 weeks), but after 6-24 months quit the job because they are moving back to their hometown, with excuses like “they can’t make friends”, “they’re homesick” or “they don’t like the weather”. And true, this is harder to foresee as even someone who “moved heaven and earth” to make the relocation happen seamlessly can still end up moving back.

      2. Starbuck*

        Yes, unfortunately people can and do flake out, but they are usually very good at saying all the things that someone who is really committed to moving would say. Some flakes suck at lying and so don’t get picked, or aren’t flaky at all but really thought they would do the move but then reality got in the way unexpectedly.

        For companies who are able to find good enough local talent, unfortunately there’s little incentive to be willing to take a risk on someone who’d need to move.

        Other companies pay moving/relocation costs as a matter of course; it probably makes more sense to target those places that mention such benefits in the job posting.

        1. Anon in Canada*

          It’s not so much some “companies” that pay relocation, but that this is normally only offered for higher-level or at least mid-level roles. This is not offered for entry-level jobs in the vast majority of fields. And someone who is entry-level may not have the ability to wait 10 or even 5 years and have built up enough experience for a mid-level role before moving.

          I say this as someone who grew up in a rural area (“isolated craphole”), and upon graduation, staying there was not an option under any stretch of imagination. I had to move NOW – not in 10 years, not in 5, and not in 1 year. It had to happen right then. And even now entering middle age, I’m still entry level, so no employer would pay to relocate me – but I may still have to move in the future (thankfully my current job is remote so I should be able to port it though).

          1. Starbuck*

            It’s not only high-level jobs; I’ve seen positions a step or two above entry level offer relocation. My friend had company-paid relocation in a role like that. It does depend on the field as well of course. But presumably if you’re currently in an entry level role, if you were applying for a new job you’d be looking for one step above that, no?

            1. Anon in Canada*

              I think Canadian companies are much less likely than American companies to offer paid relocation at all, and even when they do, it tends to be restricted to a smaller number of positions that what you’d see at an American company.

              I could find myself having to move at a time when I don’t yet qualify for even a step above entry level. (Although I’d probably be fine since my current rock-bottom entry-level job is remote.)

    2. Somehow I Manage*

      Saw this happen to my wife when we moved for my job. She mentioned in cover letters that we were relocating for my job. She had a couple initial conversations during which she provided the specific date we’d be in town which was less than a month away. And the best she got was, “let us know when you are actually here and if the position is still available we could talk.” Then nothing when she followed up because the job was still available.

      She also got “you have X job now. You absolutely won’t take this job because it is deputy X and clearly you won’t want to step back.” She absolutely was willing to pay her dues and step into a lower role because she clearly knows that you often need to work your way up.

      It sucks when employers make assumptions. Yes, there are times when people back out. But the reasons they back out are many, not just based on location or the job title.

    3. Starbuck*

      If you want to be sure that the company will hire someone non-local, look for places that mention relocation allowances in the benefits section of the job posting. It’s not all of them, but I definitely see it even in my usually under-resourced field of work.

    4. Wayward Sun*

      I got my current job before I moved. Indeed, they hadn’t even met me until my first day — I interviewed via phone. But I think they were a bit desperate.

      It’s pretty common to hire people out-of-area here because our local pool is limited. On the other hand, our cost of housing is quite high and we’ve had people bail on us after discovering they couldn’t get as nice a house as they’d hoped on what we were paying them.

      1. Anon in Canada*

        Do you live in a “rural but heavily touristy” area by any chance?

        Rural locations can be more willing to hire non-local applicants than urban ones, especially for jobs that are at least a bit specialized, because the local applicant pool is smaller. Although hiring someone you haven’t met in person, on the basis of a phone interview only, for a non-remote job sounds like a completely insane thing to do to me.

        1. Wayward Sun*

          I’m not sure I’d call it rural — population is about 100,000 — but definitely a bit isolated.

          And yeah, it surprised me too. I figured they’d want to at least fly me out for an interview but apparently they didn’t have the budget, and still wanted me. Their gamble worked out, I’ve been here eight years.

  50. Spent too much time folding stuff*

    LW #1 – I recommend a folding machine. The really good ones are expensive, but it sounds like you do a lot of brochures and other folded papers. Martin Yale is one manufacturer.

    1. metadata minion*

      That sounds amazing but libraries are perpetually underfunded. I’ve never heard of one having a folding machine instead of either doing it by hand or getting stuff printed at a shop.

      1. Lizabeth*

        They might want to price out having stuff folded at a print shop by a folding machine if the quantity is a lot. I’ve done that before at work.

      2. Peanut Hamper*

        For those who are interested, you might be able to find one cheap on eBay or (name of site that sells stuff from businesses that have gone out of business that I can’t remember). A lot of small print shops have gone out of business and not all of their equipment ended up in a landfill.

  51. Benihana scene stealer*

    For #2, yes it might be hypocritical, but I don’t know that there’s anything to do about it unless you are one of the people involved in the party planning.

    All in all it seems like a low stakes thing for now and if people are bothered enough, maybe you can try changing it for next year

  52. ZSD*

    I really wish the EEOC (I assume that’s the relevant agency?) would clarify the questions about whether you have a disability that employers have to include. I generally choose, “Prefer not to answer,” simply because I don’t know whether my disability “counts.” I have OCD, but I don’t require medication for it, and I don’t need to request accommodations for it. My husband is mildly color-blind, but I’ll bet he answers “no” for that question.
    I wish the question were something more clear-cut, like, “Do you have a disability for which you plan to request accommodations should you be offered and accept this job?” Then I could answer “No” and know that I was giving the right answer.

    1. Constance Lloyd*

      Prescription eyeglasses are technically an assistive device many folks use to be able to perform essential job duties, but I know I don’t self identify as having a disability when I apply for jobs.

      1. Jenesis*

        I actually looked this up in response to seeing the AAM question! US government policy is that a person with eye impairments should be assessed as though they had access to “ordinary eyeglasses or contact lenses” when considering whether or not they have a disability. So people whose vision can be corrected to 20/20 with glasses aren’t disabled, even if they need really thick glasses, or if they financially can’t afford glasses.

  53. Koala*

    #1. A useful phrase my children learned in preschool is “how about you worry about your own self?” Maybe not the most professional, but I would personally have a hard time not saying it.

  54. Dinwar*

    1: Many of the best origami folders on the planet use devices like this. And all bookbinders I’ve spoken with consider such things to be basic and necessary equipment for the craft.

    My only question would be where you found it!

      1. Tradd*

        St Louis Art Supply (online and a real store in St Louis) is my favorite art supply store. I love them for the Japanese paper notebooks and stationery.

    3. Jo*

      Your regular craft/hobby stores like Michaels, Hobby Lobby, JoAnne’s stock them, usually in the paper craft and scrapbooking aisle. You can also order from Amazon, Walmart, etc. Just search for “bone folder” or “folding bone”. They are actually pretty common.

      I have a few. One I’ve been holding onto for DECADES from a job where we used them. A couple years ago I was working on a committee for a fundraiser where we had a lot of folding. I brought several to the work session and my fellow volunteers were amazed. (One of those was from the Martha Stewart line of craft tools.)

      Depending on the one you buy, it may have other uses as well. The ones with a somewhat pointed edge are for scoring paper and then the long side for crisp folds.

      1. Dinwar*

        I get that they’re common. I mostly just like geeking out with people about obsure things. Plus, things like your last paragraph are helpful to me. Got a daughter that wants to make a book. And I’m trying to get back into Medieval reenactment, and I’ve got some bone lying around (we work with a butcher to get meat for our dogs, and bones come with it). There’s a very nice opportunity here for me!

        I have found that starting the conversation with “I want to make a bone folder, got any tips?” tends to end badly. Geeking out a bit first tends to work better for this kind of thing!

  55. RPOhno*

    Just FYI, the OSHA standards linked in #4 are specific to shipyard work (29CFR1915). Office work is covered under 29CFR1910 and availibility of potable water is under 29CFR1910.141(b)(1). It bans shared cups and utensils, but otherwise is silent on availability of drinking vessels. Not sure if there’s a letter of interpretation floating around that expands on what “provided for drinking” means, though…

    1. MaxPower*

      Yes, this is important! The linked reg is industry-specific, and not the industry that the LW is in.

  56. DivergentStitches*

    #2 this is why I own a Cthulhu holiday sweater

    #5 INFO – the OP mentions needing to work from home “due to my need for accommodations”, that to me means that he/she would need to disclose the disability. No? Am I misreading that line?

      1. Ann Onymous*

        Even if that’s not the case, she still doesn’t need to disclose until she has an offer and needs to discuss accommodations.

  57. Ex-Prof*

    #1 Is it a bone folder? So called not because you fold bones with it but because originally they were made of animal bone? A wonderful tool. I have one in my little stash of book repair stuff.

    Your co-worker sounds very annoying.

    1. different seudonym*

      Yes, they were usually the rib of a large animal, carved to be flat and with beveled edges. Sometimes you can see a slight indentation, which is the trace of the ribcage curvature.

  58. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    OP 1 – your coworker is really out of line.

    I’ve worked in jobs before that dealt with lots of paper products – office paper of all types, and brown paper/cardboard. We all shared tips with each other about how to do a better job and how to prevent paper cuts, dry skin, etc.

    Instead of your coworker asking politely “Oh, what’s that thing for?” and accepting your explanation of how it makes your job easier and protects your skin, they’ve gotten fixated on it.

    This is that Emerson/Ted Lasso quote about “Be curious, not judgmental” in real life.

  59. Rusty Shackelford*

    “Well, I think using your finger is fine.”

    “Yes, and some people choose to eat spaghetti with their hands. I choose not to.”

  60. Facilities Squirrel*

    Before I was Facilities Squirrel, I was Print-Shop Rabbit. When my job was folding things, you bet I had the best tools for the job; a steel ruler and a (real) bone folder. You’re doing great LW#1

  61. Jennifer Strange*

    When I saw the title for #1 I thought it was going to be that the co-worker was snarky about the type of fold the LW was choosing (like accordion vs tri-fold). While that’s still not worth snark, it could be somewhat understandable.

    The idea, though, of snarking over someone using a specific tool to help fold? I can’t imagine caring less about something as long as the job is getting done.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Oh yeah, I have an annual mailing I do with a couple of other volunteers, and they definitely think I am the weirdo who cares too much about how the letter is folded and placed in the envelope, but at least they take my recommendation and do it that way.

      2. Dinwar*

        I do that with cloths. My kids hate it. But I’ve been doing origami since I was six, and sloppy folds are nails on a chalkboard for me!

        At work I’ve got enough oddness that how I fold things doesn’t really register. But seriously, 8.5×11 is just too big to work with conveniently. A half-sheet is more useful and convenient!

      3. Jennifer Strange*

        I worked in non-profit fundraising for 10+ years and did a LOT of folding/stuffing in that time. I have…opinions…

  62. Juicebox Hero*

    #1’s coworker is asking for a loud, looking directly into her eyes, “Why do you even care?” followed by total silence and an unwavering stare.

  63. Tradd*

    #4 confuses me. People can’t bring their own water bottle? Everyone I know has spares. Every office I’ve ever worked in had a few random ceramic coffee cups in the kitchen/breakroom for guests, but that was it. Employees brought their own coffee mugs/water bottles. Most places I’ve worked for since the early 2000s required any drink container on your desk to have a lid of some sort. This policy was the result of too many computers/paperwork being destroyed by spills.

    1. Clisby*

      I’ve given away a bunch to thrift stores. Seconding someone’s recommendation that if you need a water bottle, check out thrift stores. My husband just broke the last of our wine glasses, so I’ll be heading to the Habitat for Humanity store to restock. I can get nice wine glasses for $1 each.

  64. Nancy*

    LW4: they did provide all employees with water bottles. I don’t think bringing in your own because the one they gave out was lost or given away is unreasonable. If you don’t want to but anything, bring something in from home.

  65. too many dogs*

    LW #1: Adding to the other comments about bone folders are, your answer to this person is: “We use these because they give a sharper, more professional crease to the handout.” Depending on how annoyed you are, you can add, “I’m surprised you don’t know this.”

  66. Benihana scene stealer*

    For #1, this may not be practical for your office, but is there a way you could have a “fold-off” with your coworker – sort of like a competition where you use your bone folder, and the colleague uses her hands and see who can fold the best and fastest within say 20 minutes.

    This might unite you both as well as the rest of the office and maybe she’ll see how silly she’s being for caring about this at all.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I don’t think that this would work. For one thing I don’t see the coworker agreeing with this. She is just being unreasonable and unreasonable people won’t care.

  67. Neosmom*

    Clearly the critic of OP1 has never heard of a folding bone – a dull edged hand tool that makes sharp creases. Check out the Wikipedia page on “bone folder” for more info. I loved using mine and, if I had lots of folding to do I would order another in a heartbeat!

  68. Pounce de Lion*

    I’m going to assume LW#4 has a deeper issue than water bottles. Perhaps feels unappreciated. Or bored. Or doesn’t like doing dishes at the office. Look within, LW4!

  69. CTA*

    LW #1

    It sounds like the tool you’re using is a bone folder. Your co-worker is being weird and the worst. I’d even say your co-worker is ignorant (ignoring the purpose of a tool), ableist (telling you using your finger is fine), and a sadist (not caring that you’ll get cuts and callouses, in other words injury yourself). A bone folder is the right tool for what you’re using it for. It helps you do the task efficiently and save you from injury from repetitive physical tasks.

    If you wanted to escalate this to a manager or HR, then I would definitely make the suggestion of ableism. The scent of discrimination should get folks concerned. I do realize other folks here will say escalation like this is not the answer. I’m floating the idea because you co-worker is truly being the worst about this.

    Or, if your co-worker has such a problem with how you’re doing things, then why doesn’t she just do it herself?

  70. HonorBox*

    OP1 – Fold just as you have been. The next time the coworker brings it up, mention that the bone folder is a perfectly normal tool for that process and even go so far as to tell them you’re going to continue using it, so there’s no reason to bring it up to you again.

    If they bring it up again, just give them a look and go back to what you’re doing. If they want to die on this hill, let them bring it up to a superior. If they’re silly enough to use political capital on an “issue” that is both a non-issue and something being done in a better way than they’re suggesting, I can’t imagine anyone above either of you will not just put a stop to it.

    But fold away just as you have been.

  71. Ann. On a mouse.*

    #2 – Can you wear something to celebrate things that happen at this time of year? For example, cover yourself in flowers, petals, and other natural materials like seeds, leaves, and stems, and say you’re celebrating the Tournament of Roses?

    1. Ali + Nino*

      Why did my mind immediately go to wearing a glue-covered shirt and rolling around in the leaves on the ground?

  72. Somehow I Manage*

    For LW1 – Lots of great suggestions here, and I’d say that you could choose to employ any of them. Or combine them. Give the coworker an explanation and tell them you’re not going to address it any more.

    Then… If whatever solution you employ doesn’t stop them from commenting, you could ask your boss if your method of folding is acceptable. While this type of situation usually wouldn’t warrant escalation, asking them (yes, being a bit passive aggressive) does open the door to further conversation. You can explain that you’re doing your job and unless your boss has a problem with the method you’re using, you’d like the coworker to stop hovering and commenting on your work. Boss will have an idea that coworker is potentially wasting time on something completely unimportant and may decide to say something themself. Or they might give you permission to be a little less tactful next time something is said.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      This really doesn’t arise to the level of involving a manager and has a serious chance of backfiring on the OP for upbringing up a petty issue.

      1. Dinwar*

        Strong disagree. The issue isn’t the paper folder, it’s the coworker’s harassment. And harassment absolutely is something the manager should deal with.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          One mildly snarky comment every once in a while (not based on a protected class) does not rise to harassment that a manager has to get involved in.

      2. Somehow I Manage*

        I agree that it is too small an issue to bring to the manager right now. But if the methods suggested for stopping the comments don’t put a stop to the comments, I think it could (operative word there is could, not should) be something that is mentioned to a manager. Like I noted, LW could simply ask manager if the way they’re doing the folding is acceptable. If the manager says yes, then LW can tell nosy coworker that they’ve checked and manager says it is fine.

        If I’m the manager and I’m asked that, I would probably inquire further as to why they’re even asking.

        Again, right now, I wouldn’t involve a manager. But if it continues, then maybe… a lot depends on how manager is, what the relationship LW has with them, etc.

  73. mbs001*

    #4 – Really? Most people have personal water bottles. Just buy yourself a water bottle and stop expecting your employer to keep polluting the environment. This is such a ridiculous grievance.

  74. Dust Bunny*

    OP1 Your coworker is bizarre. I cannot imagine caring how anyone else creases papers as long as the end result is satisfactory.

    She is welcome to do them all herself if she doesn’t like your methods. Put up or shut up.

  76. H.Regalis*

    LW1 – Yeah, that sounds like a public library. I sure don’t miss that aspect of it. Tell her to cram it and go find another hobby.

  77. Op #5*

    Hi everyone! Op #5 here. Quick update! I landed a job in a career field where full-time jobs are currently scant. For clarity, I only applied to permanently remote roles (and recognize my immense privilege to leave a role if it changed into a hybrid or in-office status). I checked the “No, I don’t have a disability” box on my applications and decided to disclose after the offer.

    When writing in, I was afraid that I would be sideswiping employers by “surprising” them at the end of the hiring process. I pride myself in my straightforwardness, but I sit at an intersection of several marginalized identities and—even though I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt—have a collection of past discriminatory experiences in and out of the workplace. Unsurprisingly, it can be really hard to “prove” professional harm in these situations. Hopefully I won’t have to apply for jobs anytime soon, but going forward I’ll be checking the “No I don’t have a disability” box and disclosing upon receiving offers.

    Deep bows of gratitude to Alison and everyone else who has responded!

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      Best of luck mate! And as another disabled person I very much get the ‘I’ve got to give them a chance’ versus ‘I’ve been burnt before’ dilemma. I think your tactic of ticking ‘no’ then not disclosing until offer is very smart.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      OP – you know how there’s the saying (I think I got it from Captain Awkward) about how reasons are for reasonable people? Trust is for trustworthy people. Checking that box is likely to only ‘benefit’ the employer. As the employee, at absolute best, you’ll get a unicorn workplace where their response is “thanks for letting us know, what accommodations can we make for you?” But there’s also a really high chance of discrimination along that line.

      When workplaces stop penalizing people for the information they asked about, they will get that information more readily. Until then, I think your tactic is a completely reasonable one.

  79. A Rare Books Librarian*

    (Generally don’t-think-about-it-too-hard) non-religious holiday: the new year. I’ve done Happy New Year cards for a while now, because it’s been the easiest way to be non-offensive (provided one is comfortable with “celebrating” something determined by a western calendar with religious origins).

    Also: celebrate seasons. For example, I like autumn, so I celebrate autumn. Even though I am personally religious, I choose to dress “wintery” when it comes to holiday attire.

  80. Passive-Agressive Queen*

    #1. Next time, look her straight in the eye and fold with your fingers. After putting on hand cream. Or eating Cheesies. *

  81. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    The coworker in #1 is being just unreasonable. It gives off the same vibes as someone who doesn’t like that someone uses a sponge to seal envelopes instead of licking them. I bet she hasn’t ever had to fold as much as the OP has. OP just tell her that this is a tool made specifically for the this job and then tell her to stop commenting.

    #2 If they are going to have a contest for holiday attire but not have anything religious what does that mean? Like I can see nothing with a star or angles on it. But do you need not have a sweater with a tree? What type of holiday attire are they looking for? This just seems so odd. Just don’t have the contest.

    #4 Do they not have a cupboard someplace for mugs. I’m sure there are plenty of spare coffee mugs etc.

    OP 5 didn’t say anything in their letter but is there an option to choose not to disclose? I wish we knew if this was in the US or not because I’ve never heard of the question asking for if you’ve ever had a disability in the past. It’s oddly worded.

  82. MagicEyes*

    Is anyone else having a problem with the website? This page is okay, but the content disappears on all of the other pages I’ve tried to load. This is happening with different browsers. I’m putting this in a comment because the same thing happens with the “report an issue” page.

    1. Stipes*

      That was meant to be a reply to MagicEyes just above. I assume it didn’t thread properly because… I had disabled Javascript!

      Anyway now the site already seems to be working again now. Articles no longer disappear a split-second after loading. (For me, at least.)

  84. FormerLibrarian*

    #1, if your work situation allows for it, I’d be unbelievably tempted to say “No problem, do it your way,” hand them the stack of unfolded paper, and take your folding bone to go shelfreading.

  85. Perihelion*

    My coworkers were once complaining that because we have a different function than most of the company, when the others celebrate the completion of major deadlines we are invited but it’s not really for us. I dryly said, “So it’s kinda like being Jewish at Christmas.”

  86. Jediping*

    Unfortunately just because employers aren’t supposed to discriminate based on disability doesn’t mean they don’t, just as anybody in a minority on a profession will tell you. It’s unfortunate, but real. :/

  87. Griffen Diore*

    #1 – Porcupine meat is actually quite good. If you can tolerate the smell when you field dress them.

  88. Hedgehug*

    LW#1
    omg, I used to have one of those things years and years ago and I MISS IT SO MUCH!!!
    She is crazy, she has clearly never used one and doesn’t know how amazing it is.
    You know, I am going to do myself a favour and look it up now on Amazon.
    When starting to read your letter I assumed she was criticizing where you fold in contrast to what she is printing, ie. you keep folding off center and it’s creasing my paragraphs, etc.
    Gift her one for Christmas with a note: “You don’t know what you’re missing”.
    What an extremely bizarre thing to feel threatened over.

  89. Mustang Sally*

    #4 At least your company is providing water. Before Covid, the building had water fountains with filters on them. My office also had the 5 gallon water bottles delivered that we all chipped in to pay for if you preferred to not use the water fountains. With the Covid shutdown, all water fountains were disconnected. Since we weren’t in the office, the water deliveries were discontinued. We are now back in the office two days a week. The fountains are still disconnected and we can’t get any to agree to handle the water delivery contract. Thus everyone is either bringing in their own water or buying from the vending machines. BTW, this is in a federal government building!

  90. ubotie*

    Alas, I wouldn’t even bother with joking about violence (for LW 1) because the last thing you need is for your weirdo coworker (or anyone else) to take you seriously and open that can of worms. I would, however, recommend just ignoring her the next time she makes her weird, over-the-top comments. Just straight up ignoring like she’s a ghost.
    When she doesn’t stop pestering you (because she won’t) and winds up roping in someone else “what’s wrong with LW 1?????,” then you calmly inform all and sundry that hey, Coworker is the one being a weird nutbar. And make sure to emphasize that it isn’t just that she’s asking you about your folding tool–it’s the constant, repetitive, over-the-top, immature way she’s doing it. Which is also distracting you from actual job duties. Including folding these dumb brochures. And mention that if Coworker really feels that strongly about the whole thing, she is welcome to take over these duties from you and use her own two hands to fold a crack-ton of paper on a routine basis (which really sucks–as anyone who has done that before can tell you). If your idiot coworker actually does take you up on that offer, do NOT let her anywhere near your folding tool or any other items you use to make your own work easier. I know that’s probably preaching to the choir but still. Because honestly, she sounds like she’s dumb enough to accidentally poke her eye out with the folding tool (and then have the audacity to sue you while also claiming workman’s comp).

  91. Anonymous For Now*

    For LW1, I would be tempted to advise the coworker that it’s been discovered that even chimps know how to use tools.

    Even if she’s too dense to get the insult, I would find it very satisfying to lob it at her.

  92. Coverage Associate*

    The Department of the Interior puts together a little video with staff from various Interior workplaces saying “Happy Holidays.” It’s mostly fun because you learn about all sorts of things that Interior does that you didn’t know about, like wind farms on the SoCal coast and their relatively tiny museum in DC.

    But the lawyer in me would be tempted to treat the festive clothes some of the employees wear for the video as the practical definition of “secular,” especially if the invitation had a Christmas tree. It’s things like reindeer antlers and elf hats, but no nativity scenes. Maybe silly menorah crowns but not tallith.

    Of course, ignore anything from historic sites decorated and costumed to show how people celebrated in history.

    I don’t have a link, sorry.

  93. Hermione Danger*

    #1 – I’m sure someone will have had this response, but in case not, the next time coworker decides to criticize your use of a bone folder, apologize for doing it wrong and offer to give the project back to her so it can be done correctly.

  94. OrigamiHandler*

    LW1 – if you’re doing this on a regular basis then I’d be asking the organisation to buy a Paper/Brochure Folding Machine. The manual ones (turn a handle) are cheaper than the electric. Problem solved!
    In the meantime, just ignore your colleague’s comments, it’s just so strange that this has continued for so long.

  95. anon4thiscomment*

    LW1: I don’t know if you’re still reading this, but with people who get “be curious, not judgmental” wrong in low-stakes circumstances, sometimes it helps to not give them opportunities to lay a conversational trap for themselves. The next time your coworker short-circuits when you have to fold something:

    -Don’t call their comments out as being strange or say anything that might make them feel stupid. People like your coworker tend to get defensive and problematic in ways that are more likely to backfire on you than them.
    -Don’t completely ignore the comments either. It gives your coworker an excuse to see you as unapproachable or cold, which is risky because this type of brainrot questioning is sometimes how people try to make conversation with people they don’t know how to talk to.
    -Be as brief and positive with your explanation as possible (e.g. “eh, I just like it better but that’s just me”) so they don’t feel like you’re trying to convince them or provide irrelevant information. Assume your coworker wants to feel like she’s justified in being anti-bone folder and that you’re okay with her choice.
    -Very quickly redirect the small talk to something that makes your coworker comfortable. She doesn’t know how to not pick the scab of her discomfort about some random choice, so perhaps she needs a bit of help.

  96. Me*

    #1. “Once I finish folding, I will tell you how to do your job – because you are doing it all wrong.”

  97. Raida*

    4. Do employers have to provide cups for water?

    Sounds like your question is “Is the business gives me a reusable item that is personal, not a work device, should I pay to replace it if I lose or break it and want another one?” and the answer is “Yeah.”

    In this case, I’d say a good idea would be for the business to do a check-in and allow, say, one replacement every 3 years per staff member or something. Especially if some people were pressured to give theirs away?

    But having them available to purchase sounds like nobody *had to* buy a plastic water bottle, they *chose to* buy them. Or chose to bring in a different drinking vessel from home. Are the office ones just really expensive?

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