my boss called me a “rando,” security camera is pointed at my desk, and more

by Alison Green on November 27, 2024

aIt’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My boss called me a “rando”

I’d been working at my company for a couple months, consistently contributing and even receiving recognition from other departments. So, I assumed I had a solid reputation. During a team meeting, my boss was discussing a recent project which I had a significant part in. I was feeling proud until they said something to the effect of, “Thank goodness this was a success, we’ve been hiring so many randos lately so there’s not much quality control.”

I am the newest member of the team.

The room went silent except for a couple of awkward laughs. I just sat there, stunned. I couldn’t decide if I wanted to cry, laugh, or teleport to another dimension.

Later, I approached my boss privately to ask about the comment. Their response? “Oh, I didn’t mean anything by it! I call everyone that.”

I’ve never heard them call anyone else a rando. Not even that actual random consultant who wandered into our office looking for the restroom.

Honestly, I’m still mad. Like, should I start wearing a name tag that says, “Rando”? Or add “Professional Rando” to my LinkedIn? What would you do in a situation like this? Am I overreacting? And, seriously, how do bosses not realize how much weight their words carry?

It’s that last part: many managers truly don’t realize how much weight their words carry. They think they can make offhand comments that people will just laugh off, without realizing that being a manager means their words will always feel weighty to someone.

That said, I’d let it go for now unless you see your boss devaluing you in other ways. If you do, that’s the bigger issue than this one remark anyway.

But once you’ve been there longer and have a more established rapport, at that point you could consider mentioning how much that stung and made you feel like you weren’t a part of the team.

2. My manager is trying to hold me back

I’ve been in my job for two years and I’m not sure what to do about my manager who appears to be holding me back career-wise.

I’ve had a handful of speaking opportunities through my job and, every time I do one, my boss is very against letting me and only lets me do so as a last resort. Each time I have done this, I consistently am told I did an amazing job, that was excellent, I should do more presentations, etc. by members of the audience. So I obviously I know my material and can answer questions about it.

My boss wants me to stick to ordering lunches for reoccurring meetings we have and told me he didn’t want me to apply for a more technical role on our team because he wants someone with more technical skills, but wouldn’t explain what those are. I have an MS in the environmental sciences. Now half our team quit and I’m getting the feeling he wants me to be an admin assistant rather than the scientist I am.

Should I stay in my job and ride things out? If I leave, what do I do about him taking it personally?

No! Get out. You’ve been there two years and your boss is actively trying to hold you back. Get out, get out, get out.

You don’t need to do anything about him taking your departure personally, if indeed he does. Changing jobs is a normal part of doing business! If you’re really worried about it, you can always say that you weren’t actively looking and the new job fell in your lap and was too good to pass up … but you don’t need to do that, and in fact it would be fine to say that you’re moving to a job that focuses more on your technical skills.

Related:
my boss is mad that I’m quitting
how exactly do you quit a job?

3. A security camera is pointed at my desk

My company recently installed security cameras in our office. We have two separate suites on the same floor of our building, and we prop the doors open so it’s easier for us to get in and out (we’re not customer-facing, so anyone who enters/exits would be an employee or someone like an HVAC technician). The cameras are pointed at the doors to make sure that strangers aren’t wandering in when they aren’t supposed to.

I just noticed today that the camera pointed at my suite’s door is also pointed at my desk and would most likely capture me when I’m seated, as well as whatever’s on my screen (the suite door is past my desk). Is there a non-weird or non-suspicious way for me to ask for the camera to be moved? Is it even something that I can ask about? I’m not concerned about my employers seeing me doing something inappropriate at the office, but I’m pretty uncomfortable with the idea of being watched. I don’t know, sometimes I just want to read a book during my lunch break without wondering if my employer thinks I’m committing time theft.

What’s the culture of your office like? Assuming you have a manager who’s at least semi-reasonable and not someone who manages as if the entire job is catching people trying to scam the company, it should be fine to say, “I noticed the camera by the door covers me and my entire desk, not just the door. As far as I know, no one else is being filmed like that, and I’m uncomfortable being recorded all day. Is it possible to adjust the angle so it’s not the daily Jane movie?”

4. How much should I tell employees when they complain about a coworker?

How much do I disclose to other employees about what corrective actions have been done to address a problem with another employee?

I supervise a team of entry-level employees. For most of them, this is their first professional position and so they are still learning some of the professional norms and need a lot of coaching. I try to follow the “praise in public, address problems in private” rule when managing. However, I’m not sure how to best to handle situations where another employee brings a problem to my attention. How do I assure them that an issue has been addressed, or that we are working with the “problem” employee to fix the issue, without violating the privacy of the person who is receiving coaching or corrective actions?

Sometimes the issue brought to me can be a quick fix, but other times, it’s something that will take time to work on and seeing improvement may be more gradual. If an issue continues, I do escalate corrective actions, including firing employees, but, again, I don’t want to disclose to others if a person is on the verge of being fired. So, how do I balance these two priorities — keeping disciplinary actions private while also reassuring my other employees that a problem is being addressed? Or am I approaching this all wrong?

You can indicate that you appreciate the feedback and are taking it seriously, without disclosing exactly what’s happening behind the scenes. For example:
* “I appreciate you telling me this and I will follow up on it.”
* “I appreciate you talking to me about this and I agree it’s a problem. Give me some time to work on this.”
* “I can’t promise you’ll see a change instantly, but it’s on my radar and it’s something I’m working on.”

As long as your staff sees that problems don’t fester forever and do get addressed, they’re likely to give you some room to handle things behind the scenes when you respond in this way.

Related:
how much should I tell a team whose boss is on a performance plan?

5. Time off when subpoenaed as a witness

I work for a mid-size company in a state where employers are required to allow employees time off for jury duty, without any loss of pay. Recently, I was served a subpoena to appear as a witness for the prosecution in a criminal trial; the case is related to former neighbors of ours in our condominium complex who had a domestic violence problem. It appears we ended up on the prosecutor’s list of potential witnesses because we called the police a few times after overhearing altercations in their apartment.

I don’t mind testifying at all, and would be willing to do it even if it weren’t mandatory, but it is. My company has informed me that I’ll need to use my PTO to cover the days that I will be absent from work because of this. Understanding that they are likely under no legal obligation to cover my missed time for me, does this make sense as a policy? I’m not likely to be gone for more than a couple days, so the amount of money at stake is negligible. I also can’t see that they would be setting any kind of bad precedent by paying me for the missed time…this isn’t something that’s likely to ever come again with other employees. If it makes any difference, I am a salaried employee in a white-collar position.

It’s not an uncommon policy, even for employers that provide paid jury leave, but you’re right that it’s not logical or consistent with their jury duty policy, since testifying as a subpoenaed witness is a civic duty in the same way that jury service is.

There are a number of states that require time off to testify as a witness, some of which (but not all) require that the leave be paid. Here’s a chart that describes the laws in each state.

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{ 275 comments }

{ 275 comments… read them below }

  1. RLC*

    #4: I once supervised an employee whose behavior ran the gamut from merely odd to downright disruptive. My response to their colleagues reporting the behavior was typically some variation of “thank you for letting me know”; “I appreciate the information”; “thank you for sharing your observations”; followed with “I will follow up with employee to address (concerns)”
    If the colleague later inquired or mentioned it again, I would only share that “I have followed up with (employee), please tell me if you have more concerns”
    Confidentiality (for the employee and for the colleagues) was paramount in my responses, even if I had to be a bit vague at times.

    1. Educator*

      The other piece I would add to this is empathy and impact mitigation. If Jane comes to me because Sam is not giving her the data she needs for a report, I stay vague about Sam’s ongoing performance issues, but I also tell her that I appreciate her diligence and desire to meet her deadline and, critically, I find a way to get her the data she needs, whether that means coaching Sam as he pulls it, pulling it myself, or asking Jane to work with a different team member.

      I have been in situations where my work has suffered because of a struggling coworker, and it is very frustrating. I think my team members are much more patient and trusting when I am dealing with a performance issue if they see me actively supporting them too.

      1. amla*

        This second step of actually motivating the impact is what’s been missing when I’ve had similar issues with co-workers not coping in the past. It would have made ALL the difference. Just being told, ‘I’m dealing with it’ is so frustrating, even if you have trust in your boss.

    2. 2024*

      I have been in this job as admin assistant to the dept director for over 2 years. My boss came back to work almost 2 weeks after I started. Our very first day working together, that morning, we have our first 1-1. She stares off into the corner and says: “I have terrible judgement and make bad decisions.” Then we got into specifics about the job.

      So… I have carried the knowledge every day that my boss believes she made a mistake hiring me. I’m better now, but the first year in particular that weighed very heavily on me. For the record, hiring me was a GOOD choice. I came to this job with 20 years of AA experience. Her mistake was in not properly training me. This dept is insane with the amount of knowledge you need to be successful.

      1. Ann Nonymous*

        I totally see how you would take it that way, but maybe reframe it as a sort of advance apology to you about her messing up with other things not involving you. And frankly, that’s how I read it, but you would know better having been there yourself.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          Evidence to support this interpretation: Saying it out loud to 2024! If she *had* been saying that the decision to hire 2024 was a bad one, then saying it out loud was in itself a bad decision showing terrible judgment.

          Second bit of evidence: 2024 worked there for more than a year without getting fired.

    3. Venus*

      Alison has also previously mentioned that it helps to share the disciplinary process in general. If people know more about the multiple steps (for example verbal, written, suspension, demotion, firing) then they’ll understand what happens if they have a problem themselves, and what is likely happening with another employee who is a problem. They don’t have a right to know the details of what is happening to another employee, but it’s helpful to explain expectations.

  2. KateM*

    #2: I feel like this would be a case where one would want the manager to take it personally. “Why, yes, I am leaving because you don’t take my skills seriously – why would you even ask?”

    1. Polly Hedron*

      But OP2 wouldn’t want to burn that bridge. It’s enough just to get out and say that she’s moving to a job that focuses more on her technical skills.

      1. KateM*

        Yes, yes, I didn’t mean saying this literally, but rather that’s what would be the thought behind it, and that there would be no reason to placate the boss and make him believe that this would NOT be the expected result when he makes a scientist into an admin assistant.

        1. Instructor*

          What do you all think of applying the jury duty question to students? I require attendance because I’ve found it vastly improves student performance in the college courses I teach. At the beginning of each quarter term, I always tell students and state in the syllabus that they have X number of absences to use for any reason, but to use them carefully because if they use them up early because they just want to skip class for no reason, they may need them later for a serious one. In a previous year, a student blew off several classes (more than X) because she didn’t feel like coming to class and then was assigned to jury duty. She was angry that I would not give her attendance credit even though she missed the additional jury days, because she said she could not help that the government called her to duty (and provided no documentation, but that’s a separate issue). What would you have done?

          1. anonymous 5*

            I have, in fact, encountered this exact situation as a college science professor. I actually offered a makeup assignment (which I never do otherwise) because my syllabus doesn’t override federal regulations. The student actually did have documentation, which a job could also reasonably require, so it was an easy decision. If the student had ended up on a jury for more than the single day, then we would have had to evaluate whether it was better to stay in the course or to drop; in the latter case I would have discussed with our Dean of Students whether we could arrange for the student to be able to retake the course without having to pay additional tuition (or some similar arrangement).

            If a student is doing well, missing a day won’t likely have a major impact. If a student is already doing poorly, then the jury summons isn’t the problem.

            1. Frieda*

              I’m not permitted to require attendance for points, although I can grade on participation and can have in-class assignments worth points. So we have different tools and teaching contexts.

              But I’ve had students who have testified in other contexts – not subpoenaed, but one recently testified regarding some issues with their parent’s healthcare since they are legally responsible for that parent, who has a degenerative illness. They had to do it in their home state, and could not come to class on those days. I can’t imagine making the student’s life harder in that situation. I’ve had a couple of students who were unexpectedly needed to provide support for parents recovering from a medical event, and if we can make a plan and they can keep up with the work I do my best to accommodate that.

              Long before I took my job a student at my school was arrested and remained in jail for a significant portion of the semester; from what I’ve heard, they were treated as a correspondence student – not that the category existed prior, but just as a teaching strategy – and did the readings and (iirc) instructors sent copies of notes or lectures, and they did the assignments and mailed them back. I think today that would be both easier since the student could theoretically take the class online but also no one would require or maybe even permit instructors to offer that kind of flexibility.

            2. Freya*

              Fun fact: where I am in Australia, you can apply to be excused from jury service on the grounds of being enrolled in studies and needing to attend lectures or exams, just as you can apply to be excused on the grounds of it causing undue hardship (eg being a sole trader who doesn’t get paid if they don’t work)

              1. Steve for Work Purposes*

                You can in the USA too – I got called for jury duty 3x between uni and grad school and ‘I’m a student, I have classes/exams’ or ‘I’m a grad student, I will be on fieldwork’ worked all of those times. They sometimes then flag you to get called when classes aren’t in session but it depends.

          2. Learn ALL the things*

            Students should not be penalized for being required to go to jury duty. It’s not their choice and in many cases it’s not easy to get out of. I’d say you were right to hold the student accountable for the absences that were under her control, but this one wasn’t and you did the wrong thing by penalizing her for it.

            I understand that it’s harder to learn the material if you’re not in the room where it’s being taught, but really, I hope more professors can develop some empathy and flexibility for when students have to be absent through no fault of their own

            1. MassMatt*

              But the allowance of days off is intended for such things as jury duty or illness, not in addition to them.

          3. Not on board*

            I’m actually surprised that being a student didn’t automatically get them excused from jury duty. In Canada, you get summoned, you go down for one day, say “I’m a student” and you’re excused.

            2. Bella Ridley*

              What province is this? When I was in school I certainly knew other students who had to serve on jury duty. I knew people who were excused, but it seemed to be at the discretion of the court.

              1. Not on board*

                Ontario. Not me, but my husband. He was called down twice while he was a student in university. He said, I’m a student, they said, you’re excused.
                He’s been called at least 2 more times but not selected. I’ve never been summoned.

            3. Ontariariario*

              In Nova Scotia I didn’t even go in person. I got a letter in 2015 and it sounded very strict about replying back to them with the provided envelope within a specific timeline, but when I called to say that I was out of town for work (a friend was opening my mail for me while I was away) they told me not to worry about it and that was the end of it.

              I have wondered if there are a lot fewer juries in Canada given that jury summons are so rare, or are they rare in the U.S. yet often mentioned on TV shows?

              1. mlem*

                It varies wildly by jurisdiction. I live in Massachusetts; here, if you have to show up for a (city/county/state) jury duty call, you serve “one day or one trial” and then are exempt for three years. (If they call off the duty the night before, such as if many cases have been settled/pled/deferred, you could get another summons the next week if your name happened to come up again. If you aren’t picked for a trial the first day, you’re dismissed and are done for that three-year period. If you are picked for a trial, you serve the duration of the trial and are done for the three-year period.)

                When I lived near Boston, I was called up every three years (plus other summonses that were called off the night before), because they have very busy city and county courthouses. Once I moved to a different county with smaller cities, my summons rate dropped significantly. I wouldn’t be surprised if the more rural counties have far lower rates than even that.

                Each state has its own system, though, and that’ll affect how frequently folks get called. My mother was never called in her state until she registered to vote; my state doesn’t limit service to registered voters.

                Our federal system is completely separate. I’ve known a couple of people who were summonsed federally (one for a grand jury, and that service can be brutal), but I’ve never received a federal summons (knock wood).

                1. MassMatt*

                  I knew someone who was called up for a grand jury, and it would indeed have been brutal. She lived on Cape Cod, and had a hair salon business, and was expected to drive to Boston every Friday for SIX MONTHS. This would have bankrupted her, in addition to requiring her to drive for about five or six hours every Friday. She was finally excused but it was a very close thing.

              2. Sovreignry*

                Based on a very quick google search (I’m at work and can’t do a proper deep dive because…billables.) there are probably less juries in Canada than in the United States. Based on what appears to be a website from the Canadian Government, your right to a Jury Trial is much more limited than ours. Essentially, almost every criminal trial in the United States has a right to a jury trial, whereas in Canada it appears to not attach until the punishment for the crime is more than five years (with exceptions) and it seems that civil cases in Canada do not typically use juries, whereas anything over various statutory thresholds (in California, $35,000) can have a jury trial demanded so long as you do so at the beginning and pay your jury fee.

                1. Ontariariario*

                  Thank you for confirming my intuition! I live in a city where there are a lot of courthouses and yet no one I know has ever had a jury summons. I know of one coworker whose husband was on a jury for a murder trial, and that was 10 years ago (it was mentioned recently as a comment on mental health).

            4. Elsewise*

              In my state (at least 15 years ago when this happened) you couldn’t get excused for being a student, but you could get one “freebie” where you’d tell them a specific date didn’t work for you and why, and they’d call you on a different day. I got jury duty in the middle of finals week my freshman year, and at least one of my professors was a very strict “no makeups” professor. I wrote a letter to the court and basically begged them to let me do it any other week. And they rescheduled me! For the day of my sister’s wedding. Fortunately, I didn’t get called, because they made it very clear that I couldn’t reschedule a second time.

          4. Tuesday Tacos*

            Being enrolled as a full time student excuses you from jury duty, at least in my state, and I would think most.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              This happened to me when I was a student. All I had to do was let them know I was a full-time student, and they excused me automatically before I even would have had to show up. And you can request a delay, too, as long as you have a valid excuse. (This is the US.)

            2. Pescadero*

              Only 4 states have exemptions for full time students:

              Georgia, Michigan, South Carolina, and Texas

              …and for Michigan – you only get the exemption if you are a full time student in a different county/state:

              “Students who have moved to another county or state for the school year may be excused as a temporary non-resident if they provide verification of their schooling in that area.”

              1. badger*

                I got called in my home state (CO) while I was out of state at school. Luckily the summons came in the mail while I was home on break, but I was already going to be back at school for the scheduled date of service; I just went down to the courthouse the day after I got the summons and said, I’ll be in school in another state, and they excused it. This was probably 2002-2003. I don’t remember if I provided proof but I would have at least had my student ID if needed.

                Most of the time they’re pretty reasonable, I’ve found.

          5. sparkle emoji*

            I was summoned for jury duty as a student and in my case they accepted the fact that I was out of the area for college as a reason to defer my jury service a few years. It did mean I was at the top of the list to be summoned after graduation, but still. If there is a prescreen(either phone call or online survey) before the in person day, mentioning that travel in the hardships section is worth trying.

          6. Tio*

            So, as someone who had an undiagnosed chronic illness, I took my sick days in one class and then ended up in the hospital, and the teacher wouldn’t excuse my absence for the hospital and marked my grades down. I was a top performer in the class, but the “unexcused” absence dragged me down a whole grade point. I hate this system and strongly encourage you to reconsider.

            For jury duty specifically, I don’t understand how you think it’s reasonable to penalize a student for needing to do something required by law. If someone can do well, they’ll do well. If they’re blowing off class, they probably won’t anyway. Why penalize people who can do the work without needing to be there?

          7. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            At university, teaching young adults, I would be lenient over attendance (having seen stellar work from students who missed classes, I see no reason to make such students attend classes they don’t need to attend). If I could see a student struggling with the work who missed classes I would warn them that it’s not a good idea and ask what’s up, and tell them to ask their fellow students to lend their notes. If the non-attending student then fails or gets a poor mark, well, they were warned, now here are the consequences. Attendance itself shouldn’t be a pass or fail thing.

      2. Sleeplesskj*

        There’s not really any bridge to burn here though. This manager isn’t going to be a good reference anyway.

        1. MsM*

          Yeah, OP’s other colleagues can testify to the skills OP actually wants to be developing. This dude’s just going to be miffed she (I know OP didn’t specify a gender, but I’m betting “she”) didn’t want to be his personal secretary.

    2. LizardOfOz*

      While I kind of agree with the sentiment, the potential consequences are all against the employee leaving, so it is generally better to not go out swinging. Even if it would be really, really satisfying in the moment.

      1. KateM*

        Yes, what I meant was that why to hide from the boss that you are moving to a job where you can use those skills that your boss tried to suppress? Of course you would actually be using Alison’s “I’m moving to a job that focuses more on my technical skills” – boss should understand the implication anyway.

        1. Polly Hedron*

          Right, Alison’s “technical skills” script is much better than her “new job fell in your lap” script, and is no more likely to hurt the boss’s feelings.

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            the boss is likely to think, oh OP will soon come a cropper, then laugh out the other side of their face when they realise that actually OP is thriving in her new job.

            Given that a lot of other staff have left, this manager probably sucks big time.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Reasons are for reasonable people. You would hope though, that the boss would have the insight to see on their own why someone may be leaving to do better, after they’ve tried to squelch them.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I think if OP gets the opportunity to talk to some other manager or HR, they could maybe politely say why they’re leaving.
        I wouldn’t count on the boss having any self-awareness, though. All my life I’ve been amazed by how little self-awareness some people have, and the ones who need it most have the least.

      2. learnedthehardway*

        I think that it’s entirely fine to say “I had a great opportunity come up that will let me focus on using my technical skills, which is where I want to take my career.” It’s NOT personal, but it is instructive for the manager that blocking people from growing their careers in the directions they want to grow in WILL result in attrition.

        If the manager takes that personally, well, they would have taken any reason personally. You can’t let someone else’s emotional reaction to your career choice dictate your career choice.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      “Half the team has quit” — I can’t help but wonder if there’s a common reason that is now landing on OP.

        1. Learn ALL the things*

          No, it was the same letter. It says “Now half our team quit and I’m getting the feeling he wants me to be an admin assistant rather than the scientist I am.”

      3. OP2*

        Yes that is very true. I’ve had some very dysfunctional bosses before so maybe it takes me a bit to see bosses for how they really are unless it’s over the top egregious.

        1. Sandi*

          Were you hired to do a scientist-type job, and are you now doing admin work because of your gender and because his admin quit?

          I have heard it for decades… if a female scientist gets tasked with admin duties then it’s not possible to get away from them at that job. It’s really sad that this is still happening decades later but the advice is still solid… you have to leave.

          1. A Significant Tree*

            It does seem pretty common. I worked with one woman who, the entire five years that I knew her, did project management. She and I were laid off at the same time and got to chatting – turned out, she had been pushed sideways out of a more technical role that matched her degree/training to the PM role when the senior manager needed a reliable (read, “female”) person. In no coincidence, that same senior manager told me he had tried to find me (a senior technical SME, also a woman) a PM role to “save” me from being laid off. Funny that his largesse didn’t extend to finding me a senior technical SME role in another division – those roles existed but I turned them down and took the severance.

            I hope OP is able to get out quickly and find a job that really uses their skills!

          2. OP2*

            I was hired to do Project Management, fieldwork, and some small, infrequent, admin work. His admin assistant did quit and he tossed it all on me.

            I actually told him I had an interest in becoming a manager myself at some point, for example in another department, and had casually mentioned this to our director. Boss didn’t like that.

            1. allathian*

              Time for you to get out. There are reasonable bosses out there who let scientists do science and who won’t try to actively sabotage their reports’ careers.

    5. Sharon*

      Having someone leave because the job didn’t align with their career goals is a foreseeable professional outcome. If the boss takes it personally, that is their problem. It is not on OP to manage boss’s feelings.

    6. Also-ADHD*

      Yes – I guess the industry might be truly too small to “burn bridges” but someone who wants a scientist to be an admin assistant and actively diminishes them (potentially with a misogyny component, because it sounded like boss was male/reader was female) isn’t going to be a good bridge anyway. Doesn’t need to be snarky, just “I felt my skills were not valued here because I was kept from presenting, using my technical skills, or seeking internal opportunities and was asked to do administrative work instead, despite my goals and skills being aligned with [whatever science stuff LW does].”

  3. Educator*

    Interesting answer to #5–In a past job, I was periodically subpoenaed for things I observed as a result of my professional role that were not directly connected to my job itself. My employer always paid me and helped facilitate the logistics, but it looks like that was just out of the goodness of their hearts rather than any legal obligation. Or is it different if the summons is connected to a situation you would not have been involved with in the first place if you did not have your job?

    1. Cmdrshprd*

      I’m having a hard time picturing what kind of role job you are talking about.

      I would imagine/hope if you were a police officer and/or security guard for a store testifying would be considered part of your job.

      Idk about criminal proceedings but for civil proceedings if you are subpoenaed you should be paid (not a ton but small stipend for milage and day appearance) this I think varies for state proceedings vs federal proceedings. so I think having to use PTO is not unreasonable, you are still being paid so you don’t lose money, you just lose a PTO day or two.

      1. Myrin*

        Given the username, I’d assume Educator is a teacher of some sort and was as such subpoenaed for cases where parents hit their children or a student who had behaved erratically in school committed a crime outside of school. I guess you could argue that dealing with that kind of thing is part of a teacher’s job but there’s also an obvious difference between that and e. g. a police officer.

        1. Educator*

          Yes, I was a school administrator at the time, so some cases were directly connected to my work, but a lot were really a stretch–I obviously can’t be too specific, but think things like being asked to testify about the character of people you had only met for minutes in passing. I often felt like lawyers liked my title and wanted me to talk about things I really was not in a position to address.

          I would have been pretty annoyed if I also had to do it without pay or had to take PTO too. I feel like job-related summonses, even tangential ones, should be their own category.

      2. Gamer Girl*

        It’s pretty common if you are a subject matter expert (ESL, Special Ed, etc) who can testify to the legal implications of a teacher’s, school, or district policy that denies children up to 21 their rights under IDEA or other Ed law. In fact, for ESL, in a good TESOL program you are specifically trained on how to advocate for children if/when there are compliance issues with the law (eg: denying the need for an ESL teacher, not providing adequate resources, not providing aides or denying other services in the IEP, discrimination, etc).

        There is a ton of Ed law, but there are also districts or individuals who try to not apply the law (often because of cost) because they don’t see a handful of ESL kids at a school as “worth” the cost of a teacher. So, you need subject matter experts to testify on the legal impact and the educational impact of non compliance.

        1. Gamer Girl*

          And, to be clear, it’s usually a university level professor who would be called upon for legal expertise (as mine was–she used old case files to train us on when circumstances rose to legally actionable).

          Individual teachers are called upon to remind administration of compliance (and consequences of non compliance!) with the law. They are then usually witnesses about their role in trying to enforce compliance and the administration’s resistance or outright egregious statements about “wasting” money on certain protected classes (rare, but it happens).

      3. epicdemiologist*

        Our state awards grants to various organizations, including law enforcement agencies, to support traffic safety initiatives. The grant funds explicitly cannot be used for court time (even if the officer is testifying about an arrest they made as a grant-supported activity).

      4. Jackalope*

        That depends a lot on how much PTO you have. If your PTO budget is only 2 weeks a year and testifying means you don’t get to take a trip you were planning on, or that you get LWOP for time off with the flu or COVID, that can be a big deal.

      5. The Body Is Round*

        Medical laboratory here — one of my coworkers (long before I worked with them) found sperm in the urine of a female patient who was in long-term care and unable to consent to sex. Coworker had to testify in court on that one.

          1. The Body Is Round*

            Day in the life of a health care worker. Even in the lab there are situations where we can be mandated reporters.

    2. Catagorical*

      Seems reasonable that the job connection mattered. I think it was appropriate your employer paid, even if not legally required.

    3. Jax*

      There is such a thing as an Expert Witness — and it can very lucrative, it can provide more annual income than the day job does. It works like this: A company in a lawsuit with a ton of money on the line will hire someone who has absolutely sterling credentials in a very narrow, technical, and complex field to testify/explain something from the stand in a way easy for people not in the field to absorb.

      It can be anyone. It can be an economist who was on a team that wrote a complex provision of the tax code who helps make a case why it is or isn’t being applied correctly. It can be a professor at a top university who has written a legal casebook used throughout the country. It can be a surgeon, a scientist, it’s really endless. There are some fields where so much money in high-stakes litigation that a good Expert Witness can be in demand. They can become addicted to the role and spend a good portion of the year traveling and testifying for whoever will pay them most.

      This was not what was happening in the letter, but as I read it I wondered if the Expert Witness thing alone is why an employer might have such a policy.

      1. Nekussa*

        My father used to work as a forensic metallurgist. When an expensive machine broke, he could look at the pieces and give his expert opinion on what happened – was it not manufactured correctly, not installed correctly, not maintained correctly, not operated correctly, etc. If the parties suing each other over the cost of repairs got as far as going to court, he could be an expert witness, but most of the time once the engineering report came out the parties settled.

      2. Reluctant Mezzo*

        I have a friend whose wife makes bank by being a nurse practitioner expert witness. She logs many, many miles and collects bigly (till she gets tired and takes time off).

    4. Learn ALL the things*

      I think your case is different because you were testifying in court as part of your official job duties. My office has a time clock code for serving as an expert witness if one of the projects we’ve worked on ends up going to court. But there’s no guarantee that companies will offer paid time off to testify in matters that aren’t related to the work itself.

    5. Observer*

      Or is it different if the summons is connected to a situation you would not have been involved with in the first place if you did not have your job?

      I suspect that it was mostly pragmatism, if they were reasonable employers. This was not your choice but still directly tied to your job. And it would have been a really bad look for the to make it difficult for you to fulfill your legal obligation that you incurred due to the job.

  4. Nodramalama*

    For LW1 I don’t know if this helps, and obviously I don’t know where you or your manager are from, but for what its worth rando is VERY common slang in Australia and using rando to refer to someone wouldn’t be particuarly rude, although you’d be more likely to refer to someone as ‘ol mate’

    I would still be a bit put off if my boss referred to ME as a rando, but I’d probably take them at face value that they didn’t mean anything particular by it.

    1. Educator*

      Yes, in my part of the US, I would have interpreted “rando” to mean someone hired from outside the company or without direct experience doing the task at hand. Not exactly a nice thing to say, but not worth a lot of mental energy either.

      1. Nosy*

        I’m also in the US, but where I am “rando” is basically synonymous with “idiot”. When I first read the question I was incensed on OP #1’s behalf that their boss has called them an idiot in front of team members and to their face!

        1. InternetRando*

          In the UK, “rando” is shorthand for “randomer,” which refers to someone perceived as random or lacking a clear connection to the situation at hand. In this context, the term implies that people were hired for roles without thorough consideration of their background, experience, or skill alignment with the position. It doesn’t necessarily mean these individuals lack excellent skills, but rather that their qualifications or expertise don’t align well with the specific needs of the role—hence being considered “random hires.”

          1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

            Yeah, even if “rando” weren’t pejorative in my dialect on its own (and Urban Dictionary is with me on this), just being told out of the blue, in front of everyone, that my boss doesn’t have confidence that I’m a good fit for my job, would feel like a real sucker punch!

            1. Tea Monk*

              Yea, it’s only mildly derogatory for me, but if I was new at a job, I’d overthink it a lot and be really bothered by it just because it’s a stressful situation. Half the time folks like OP’s boss don’t even mean it like that, but if you’re struggling it hits different

          2. Polly Hedron*

            Strictly speaking, LW1 has room not to take the insult personally, because the boss didn’t call LW1 a rando, just said they’d “been hiring so many randos”, which is a bit different from saying every new hire is a rando.

            1. Audrey Puffins*

              I’d try and use this framing for myself if it were me. I work hard to keep my personal feelings separate in the workplace, which helps me take criticism as “a practical thing to work on” rather than ” a personal failing which stands out”, and if the boss weren’t specifically saying “every new hire is a rando” or “Audrey was such a rando hire” then I would mentally frame it in the way that makes it sting the least and move on with my day. I’ve seen too many co-workers work themselves into far too dramatic lathers over taking things personally that were never meant as such for me to take anything that happens in the workplace too personally.

            2. Nebula*

              Yeah I actually took it to potentially mean ‘the company has been hiring so many randos recently, thank God we ended up with someone competent.’ Ideally the boss would have clarified like ‘I don’t mean you, OP’ or ‘we appreciate your work’ or whatever but I truly don’t think it’s worth putting much mental energy into.

            3. L-squared*

              Exactly.

              Also, I kind of assumed there had been some people hired before OP who didn’t work out for whatever reason, so that is more who was being referred to.

            4. Caramel & Cheddar*

              That’s how I read the letter too! That the boss was saying everyone else was a rando, not LW, in a “Thank god we made a good hire for once!” sense. To me, the issue here is the boss denigrating other staff in front of a bunch of people.

            5. Polly Hedron*

              Of course the boss should have responded better when LW1 (bravely!) followed up: after saying, “Oh, I didn’t mean anything by it!” the boss should have added “And I didn’t mean you”; but this boss doesn’t have great social skills.

          3. Ellis Bell*

            I mean, while that’s literally the definition, I would still take this comment as a joking one in the UK. It’s so extreme, that it’s got to be a very ham-fisted attempt at teasing. Too many managers think they can take part in friendly banter, or taking the piss. They don’t factor in how their position makes it excruciatingly awkward.

          4. Clisby*

            Yeah, I can see that. The only way I (in US) have ever heard it used had nothing to do with a workplace – more like unexpected people turning up somewhere. “The fancy gallery opening was going well until a bunch of randos from the bar down the street stopped in and drank all the wine”

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yikes, if that is true in the LW’s area, it rather changes my impression of things. I never heard it used to mean anything but “random person” and took it as “we’ve had so many random people being hiredvlately and they’ve varied from useless to really good, so I’m relieved the LW is at the very good end of the scale because the standard is really random and I’ve no idea what to expect from hires.”

          Still tactless, but nowhere near implying idiots.

          1. Morgan*

            I (also Irish) read it in exactly that way: not “I don’t have confidence in you”, but “your good results have given me confidence in you”.

          2. Katie*

            I read the random comment to be that. I really get why OP would be out of by it and honestly the boss could have clarified when asked. In the end, if OP frames it like that, it really was a compliment and they can move on and not let the comment bother them anymore.

        3. Dek*

          I’ve always heard it as just “unknown person.” As in someone you just don’t know or trust the qualifications or opinions of. Not a very nice thing to say about an employee, but not horrible.

      3. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        US here, and it comes across as pretty rude to me even by itself. And even worse in a context of “You don’t know what you’re doing, and we’re lucky you didn’t mess everything up.”

        I could see being a manager and meaning it jokingly, like “My team of idiots,” and being dismayed that the joke didn’t land, but I could also see being offended by being on the receiving end. Especially if you’re new and don’t have a rapport with your boss yet.

        When I gave a workshop on communication in the workplace, my advice was to play it safe and not make disparaging jokes about the people below you in a hierarchy, even if you don’t mean anything negative. You never know how the message is going to be received, and really…do you *need* to make that joke? You don’t, so consider that your reports need not to be wondering if you have a negative opinion of them and if so, if that’s going to negatively impact their career, and that their need should come first.

        That said, because I said in my workshop that this is the exact kind of thing managers do, without realizing the potential for it to have a really disproportionate effect because of the power imbalance, I agree with Alison’s advice to not overthink it. Managers mess up, and this kind of mistake is easy to make.

        1. Allonge*

          Your last paragraph, totally. It’s not that it should be happening, but there is no magical transformation when someone becomes a manager – people who had a bad brain-to-mouth filter still have it as a manager, people who have difficulty being on time still have that issue as a manager etc.

          Again, this is not to say OP is in the wrong to be hurt. It is to say, however, that the energy invested in unfortunate remarks is not well spent – best to find a way to get over it if there is no other issue.

          1. Malarkey01*

            I want to second this- managers have a duty to be careful with their words and they do carry so much weight, but please understand that when every single remark is under a microscope you can definitely use the wrong word, express something badly, or just say something tactless (it happens to ALL of us unfortunately every once in awhile).

            LW you followed up and boss clarified for you, at that point don’t dwell on it and don’t invest more energy or thought in what was a badly expressed comment.

    2. Lizard the Second*

      Another Australian here. Rando is common usage, but I’ve always encountered it as mildly derogatory or dismissive. It would definitely feel insulting to me to use it to describe someone in a work context.

      1. Nodramalama*

        I would use it as just someone I don’t know.

        “whered you get that pen?”
        “oh a rando gave it to me.”

        It can be rude, or it can be neutral. In any case, I don’t think it was designed to mean “LW is some random moron I don’t think is good as their job”.

      2. RVA Cat*

        American here. It’s my understanding that Australian slang is a whole different world, as a certain word gets used casually that would be a Code Red HR Firing On The Spot offense here.

      3. Annie2*

        I’m Canadian, and it sounds like we (along with the Americans here) basically use rando the same way. It ranges from neutral to mildly derogatory to me, like you’re emphasizing how little you know someone (ie. “some rando just jumped into our photo” or “some total randos showed up at Jane’s party”). I can see being a bit stung at the boss’ comment, but to me it’s not worth dwelling on if your relationship is otherwise good.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      It’s the use of random coupled with the remark about “no quality control”, though. It seems to mean that (the boss feels — is there any truth in it?) the company is hiring people who are unqualified, have unrelated experience, or otherwise don’t fit the “expected” mental model of what a hire for that role should look like. It isn’t a nice thing to say but I wonder if there’s any truth to it in OPs case, or within the company as a whole. Also something about the way this was said makes me think the boss wasn’t the one who hired OP, which is an interesting dynamic in itself.

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        I would interpret it that way too. On the plus side, it’s not necessarily an insult to the LW. It’s more “I have low confidence in the skills of our new hires, because from what I’ve seen the company might as well be picking these people at random, so it’s a relief to find one that isn’t useless.” That’s not something the manager ought to be saying out loud, even if it’s true, but still not an insult to the LW.

        1. Tio*

          I mean… That definitely still seems like an insult to LW to me, especially in the context of “discussing a project they did a lot of work on and did well on.” They’re basically saying “Well we weren’t expecting you to be any good, what a surprise!”

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            If I turn out to be much better than expected, I’m going to feel great!
            Like when the agency was being bought out: the previous boss trashed me to the new boss.
            Then new boss started getting feedback from everyone getting work from me and saw that actually I was damn good, and they were very pleased.
            (Unfortunately that meant they started a campaign to get me to start working full time, which I didn’t want at all, unless they gave me a decent pay rise over and above the earnings from the extra hours, and somehow despite acknowledging that I was great at my job, that wasn’t possible)

      2. Nodramalama*

        I think its more likely that boss wasn’t really referring to LW particuarly at all, but just generally new people

        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, that was my impression. Reading the letter, I was incredibly surprised by OP’s strong and personalised reaction – I don’t think this comment would’ve registered with me at all, honestly (other than it being something a manager shouldn’t be saying to their team, making me question his professionalism as a whole).

          1. Expelliarmus*

            I think since OP is the newest person, they’re already barely feeling like they don’t belong there as is, and this doesn’t help.

          2. sparkle emoji*

            Well the boss was talking about the new hires as a group, and LW is part of that group. I can see why they’d assume the boss was talking about them as part of the randos. I don’t think it’s helpful to the LW, but it’s clear how they got there.

            1. Myrin*

              See, I wouldn’t have understood the boss’s comment as “the new hires as a group” at all! He said “we’ve been hiring so many randos lately” which is not the same as “we’ve hired only randos lately”. This might be splitting hairs but now that you mention it, I think that’s exactly the reason for my own reaction – “so many” does not mean “each and every one of them”. I can truthfully say “I’ve had so many old men visit my office lately” but at the same time, not everyone who’s come to my office lately has been an old man.

    4. Harper the Other One*

      In my area “rando” is used a lot in video games, specifically for online video games where you can play with friends but also get teamed up with an online matchmaking system – so, for example, “we needed six people to do the raid so the four of us joined up with two randos.”

      In that context, the implication is that you truly don’t know what you’re going to get – could be the best player you’ve ever seen in your life, could be someone who’s only been playing a few days. OP, maybe your boss is a gamer. And if so, given the comment about success, the meaning would be that they finally got a good rando – you!

      1. Stipes*

        Yeah, the only context I’d heard the word “randos” before is online like this, where it basically just means “previously unknown people”.

        But it’s still a weird thing for a boss to say. Presumably you usually aren’t already familiar with your new hires!

      2. Stipes*

        Yeah, the only context I’d heard the word “randos” before is online like this, where it basically just means “previously unknown people”. Synonymous with “strangers” basically, but used in contexts where strangers are inserted into your group.

        But it’s still a weird thing for a boss to say. Presumably you usually aren’t already familiar with your new hires!

    5. Never the Twain*

      Honestly, I wish more managers would read AAM (letters and comments). Not because I think they’d take the advice on board, but just so they might realise that comments thrown into a conversational pool (at random?) cause ripples and distortions that they can’t even begin to imagine.
      FWIW I wouldn’t feel personally slighted by the ‘rando’ comment, though I totally get why many people would, but even if it were explicitly framed as ‘Thank goodness we got you after all those other recent rando hires’ that would still be an unnecessary, unprofessional and unacceptable public denigration of other employees. If management were a registered profession, that ought to count as at least one strike.

    6. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I’m in the US and typically Rando is used negatively, as in random person. So in this case the boss is saying they have hired a random person (OP). The sub context is that OP doesn’t have the qualifications or isn’t very good.

    7. Cacofonix*

      I can tell you that trying to mollify the LW by downplaying the rudeness of the rando term isn’t helpful. The whole context was rude, not just the slang term, also rude. The LW is right to be annoyed, even though, having expressed that concern to their manager, should probably drop it but be wary.

      1. Nodramalama*

        I’m not downplaying anything, I’m giving context to how rando can be casually used and not in a way that is intended to give offence. Youre free to think that LW is right to be annoyed, that doesn’t mean everyone will.

  5. InternetRando*

    LW1: Let’s be clear— the boss didn’t refer to the LW as a ‘rando’ (which, in itself, isn’t necessarily an insult) but rather used the term to describe other recent, less successful hires contributing to messy projects. This seems to be an unfortunate expression of frustration about those hires and, albeit clumsily, a compliment to the LW. Very much overreacting by he LW – perhaps not surprising when at the beginning of our new role journey we all want to impress – but impressing is clearly working and the random comment is fine if a bit insensitive!

    2. MK*

      The comment is very much not “fine”, even in the context you describe. The word may not be strictly an insult, but it is definitely a contemptuous and dismissive description, and it shouldn’t be used by a manager to describe new colleagues publicly.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        I agree. I think InternetRandos’s read on the manager is correct, and OP should feel reassured, but I don’t think it’s professional to slate unsuccessful hires publicly like this.

      2. overcomposer*

        Right. And the manager could have instead said something like “glad this all went well!” Or just…nothing…

      3. Hohumdrum*

        whoa, you may want to back up- where I come from “rando” is not remotely contemptuous at all, and not really dismissive either. Based on the thread above it seems this may be regional.

        Rando was the go-to millennial slang for “random” as in, “person I don’t know” when I was in college, it wasn’t an insult and did not imply anything negative, it literally just means an unknown person.

        I don’t think of it as a particularly professional word, as I primarily associate it with drunk college kids saying things like “whoa there are so many randos at this party”, but taking it pejoratively automatically feels like a stretch.

        If LW is in one of the places described above where it means “idiot” then by all means. But that is far from a universal meaning from the term, and seeing it as contemptuous from jump feels like an intense assumption.

        1. tabloidtained*

          It doesn’t mean “idiot,” but it still has a negative connotation, even in the context you’re describing.

          1. Salsa Verde*

            I agree, I do not see it, nor the word random, as negative. It just means, unexpected in the current situation, which of course is not always negative.

        2. Clisby*

          I asked my 22-year-old son, and he agrees with you. To him, “rando” just means “some random person I don’t know.”

        3. fhqwhgads*

          But the rest of the sentence matters. The boss was saying there was a risk the project wouldn’t go well because of the randos. So even if identifying people who work for the person saying it as random unknowns were not inherently negative, implying they’re a cause of failure is negative.

        4. Joron Twiner*

          We know it was a rude thing to say in the context of the letter because everyone else in the meeting went quiet and laughed awkwardly. It’s weird to refer to your new hire who’s been working hard for months as a “random person you don’t know.”

          And it’s not just the word “rando” here, we can replace it with the neutral “people” and we’re still left with this situation: boss is describing a project that recent hire OP worked on, and says “Thank goodness this was a success, we’ve been hiring so many people that there’s not much quality control.”

          That still implies that new people=no quality control, and the boss was not confident in the project. Not a great thing to imply about your new hire!

    3. KateM*

      I do read it as OP included among those lately hired randos and boss essentially saying “thankfully this particular rando happened to be of better quality than most”. Still not a compliment.

      1. sparkle emoji*

        Yeah, its maybe not as negative about the LW specifically, but it’s still not kind. I can’t imagine a situation where this is truly a compliment, at best it’s just saying they are the best of an underwhelming group.

      2. Tio*

        Yeah. He’s basically saying “We weren’t expecting you to be any good, but hey, what a pleasant surprise.” Not the worst insult ever, but still would make me quite angry.

      3. Hroethvitnir*

        This is perfect. It’s basically the definition of damning with faint praise, and it’s pretty ridiculous anyone is trying to act like it’s abnormal for the LW to be upset when the rest of the staff also did the business equivalent of a collective wince.

    4. Brain the Brian*

      Absolutely. I was going to comment the same thing. At risk of sounding like I’m minimizing your concerns, LW1, let this go.

    5. londonedit*

      I don’t think it’s ‘very much overreacting’ by the OP – if I was in their shoes I’d probably be stung by it, too. But I agree that it’s not the worst thing in the world – and I’m pretty sure the manager wasn’t thinking of the OP specifically when they said it. In fact, you could interpret it as ‘so many of the other people we’ve hired have been rubbish, it’s really refreshing that we’ve finally hired someone decent!’. I’m pretty sure the manager just wasn’t thinking about how their words would land – and they probably can’t remember when the OP started there or the fact that they’re the newest hire. I remember when I started a job a few years ago, I never got a proper introduction in the monthly team meeting – and when I mentioned it (in passing) to my boss, she was horrified and said ‘I completely forgot! It seems like you’ve been with us far longer than a month – you don’t seem new at all!’. Which I took to be a compliment, but I’m sure someone else might have spun it into a slight. Fundamentally, it was a throwaway comment from the OP’s boss, and they shouldn’t read too much into it. Focus on the fact that the boss was pleased with the work!

      1. Cat*

        We know that people who would interpret that as a slight exist from one of the most referenced letters on the site; something similar was on Ms Cheap Ass Rolls’ list of complaints

    6. The Other Dawn*

      I read it the same way, that LW isn’t a ‘rando’. It’s all the unsuccessful hires that are ‘randos’.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      That is exactly how I read it.
      However, this is a comment he probably should have kept to himself.

    8. Fluffy Fish*

      Very much this imo.

      Putting myself in OPs shoes, because my work was being praised I would actually take the managers comments to mean explicitly other new hires and not me.

      OP your best bet here is to try reframing what your manager said. They praised your work. When you followed up they said they didn’t mean you.

      Insensitive/thoughtless? Sure. But on the spectrum of toxicity this is like a 2.

      This isn’t the thing you want to keep stewing on.

      1. ubotie*

        “ This isn’t the thing you want to keep stewing on.”

        Yes this is what I was thinking! The boss could have definitely worded it better/differently. But in terms of work capital and such, i just don’t think this is worth stewing over like this. It seems like a sure fire way to screw yourself over.

    9. Cyndi*

      I have had managers who would tell me how great it was to have me after all those other idiots, and then complain endlessly about the people in the role before me. Trust me, if it was meant that way it’s still a very bad sign, just differently bad than how the LW took it. It’s the professional equivalent of dating someone who won’t shut up about how all their exes were nuts.

    10. Also-ADHD*

      I can see why this boss isn’t getting good performance, frankly. The comment itself isn’t great, but doubling down after it was called out (“I call everyone that”) shows me more about the manager in a not-good way. It would be extremely easy to briefly reflect, apologize, and note the language was not intended to harm but was inappropriate, though not reflecting what manager thinks of LW [and then add positive feedback of LW possibly, if a good specific can be conjured].

  6. Rosacolleti*

    #5 This is tricky because it’s not to your employers benefit to have you away from your job so why should it be their cost? I understand it’s not the OP’s fault either, but that shouldn’t make it the employers’ problem.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        It is equivalent to jury duty as they were subpoenaed. As in they have no choice about going. They must show up or risk arrest. Its different if they said oh I agreed to be a witness for my best friend. Voluntary, you use PTO. Involuntary – jury duty, subpoena, company compensates.

          1. fhqwhgads*

            Not the law, but the question wasn’t “is it the law”, the question was “why should it be their cost”?
            Although an interesting part of something that is the law federally is if you’re exempt but they dock your pay for serving either on a jury or as a witness, then they can’t consider you exempt anymore. This employer is saying use PTO, so they’re paying but not out of a separate bucket. But if someone had no available PTO and the employer said “ok then you’re not paid for when you’re there then”, bam, non-exempt.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      It depends on the cost and the size of the company, but I think an employer would do well to consider overall the morale impact on employees of losing PTO to something they can’t control. If you lose an employee to another company that will help them navigate emergencies and their civic duties, how much will it cost to replace them?

      1. RegBarclay*

        Agreed. I’ve never used it (and I can’t imagine that it’s actually used very often) but my employer will pay if you’re called as a witness to a trial. There are some caveats – you can’t otherwise be involved in the trial – but I think it’s a good thing that they support doing your civic duty like that.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          This is partly why I love my employer. They allowed me the time off to appear at court (I was a witness for the prosecution) in a quite convoluted case. They’re also fantastic about all the leave I need for being disabled.

    3. Varthema*

      If PTO is supposed to let the employee rest and prevent burnout, using all their PTO on a pretty stressful, *required by law* event sounds like a good recipe to end up with a burned out employee which is definitely not to the employer’s benefit.

      Plus, time off for a salaried worker is an opportunity cost and potential (but not necessarily following) lost productivity. It’s not even costing the employer actual cash, unlike an hourly shift worker who would have to be covered.

      1. 1-800-BrownCow*

        PTO isn’t defined as “time to let the employee rest and prevent burnout”. An employer can’t tell an employee how they must use their PTO nor can an employee tell their employer when they must pay them instead of using PTO. At my company, PTO for non-exempt employees is a bucket of time for sick leave (yes, they’re resting but being sick is stressful and not relaxing like a fun day at the beach or something), medical appointments, etc. Even for exempt employees, PTO isn’t always for rest and prevention of burnout. I had to use 40 hours of PTO earlier this year to travel to my parents’ home and help my dad out with mom who has severe dementia and had emergency surgery for a broken femur and was then moved into a nursing home. Trust me, none of that PTO time I used was restful or prevented burnout. It was extremely stressful leaving my husband and 3 kids and having to put aside a busy workload for the week I was gone.

        Now that said, I think it’s nice if an employer doesn’t make the employee use PTO time. The link Alison shared has the laws for each state regarding jury duty and being a witness. For my state, if the company is over a certain # of employees it basically says the employer cannot fire the employee for either jury duty or being a witness. It makes no requirements for paying the employee. The one time I went to jury duty at my company, at the time I had to use PTO and thankfully I only missed 1 day. We’ve since updated our employee handbook and now the company will pay for up to 2 weeks (80 hours). Anything required beyond the 80 hours, the employee must use PTO.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      It’s not to your employer’s benefit to have you be away from your job, but it’s also not to your employer’s benefit for them to be known as stingy enough to refuse pay for what might be a few days away maximum, especially at a company that already does pay while staff are on jury duty. Do you really want to be known as the company that scrapes back a few hundred bucks off the back of employees while they’re trying to perform a civic duty?

      1. Rosacolleti*

        not at all, but small businesses who run on very tight margins cannot always afford these extras. I just think it’s an interesting question as to why it should be an employers responsibility to foot the cost.

    5. MCMonkeybean*

      That’s pretty much the same argument people use against providing parental leave. There are lots of things good employers cover not because it is specifically of benefit to them, but because it helps them attract and retain good employees which is ultimately of benefit to them.

      1. Ms. Norbury*

        This, thank you. There’s also the aspect that there are many, many things that companies are expected to do that are not to their benefit per se, but are to the benefit of employees and society as a whole. It’s the cost of doing business, and the price to pay for benefiting from the structure of an organized society. In this specific case, it might be legal to force the employee to use their PTO, but honestly, I don’t think it should be.

    6. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      My current firm covers your pay for a lot of things that are not to their benefit. Things like parental leave, sick leave, time off for court cases, annual leave, religious holidays etc. You can’t reduce everything down to pure profit motives.

    7. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      You could make the case that having people testify is for the good of society, so since the employer is part of society they do benefit.

      1. AnonymousOctopus*

        That’s my thought, too. When people know that they could lose out on pay because they witnessed a crime it’s another barrier to reporting said crime. I wish some of my tax money could go to a fund to pay jurors and subpoenaed witnesses for their time.

    8. Pyrienise*

      I am chiming in on this comment just to add that this issue came up with me two weeks ago! I am a prosecutor and we were prosecuting a child abuse case. One witness had been a DCS worker but had since moved out of state and is now teaching in a public school.

      She was a necessary witness and had a subpoena which could have put her at risk of arrest (risk being pretty low since she’s in a different state) and she also wanted to come testify b/c the case was pretty awful to the child. She told me that her employer was making her use PTO and that was the first time someone had told me their employer was being difficult. I wrote out an entire page on our letterhead explaining how useful she was as a witness, that I was glad she was doing what we would want anyone connected with children to do in a child abuse case and that I would hope the school would understand the situation and grant her the time off without making her use PTO.

      The school changed their mind within hours of receiving my letter, so it worked.

      All that to say, talk to the prosecutor! You might not get as nice of a letter as I wrote, but sometimes getting a letter like that at all can help persuade people to see reason. This witness had to be flown the day prior to my state, spent the night at a hotel, came to the courthouse and spent most of the day in court before flying out the following morning. It was hardly a vacation.

  7. KateM*

    For OP#3, I noticed that the security camera shows among other things what is on OP’s screen. Could that possibly be considered some kind of confidentiality breach? The cameras probably are not good enough for actual data, but maybe knowing what kind of data layout appears when could be something that should not be filmed?

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Those can be difficult for people who have issues with eyesight. I HATED them when I’ve had to use them for work. They distorted the screen

      2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        or simply moving the camera which would also make her feel more comfortable.
        At one point our office was a former boutique, and I was literally in the shop window. I like to have my desk placed so I can see everyone coming in and out of the office, so I had my back to the window.
        Suddenly my boss shouted “what are you looking at on your screen Rebel?” as if I were slacking off and doing some online shopping at work. I was actually viewing photos of the products I was translating descriptions of, but there was a guy in the street looking over my shoulder at my screen very, very closely… I was translating a catalogue of racy lingerie that day…

    2. WellRed*

      Maybe but OP would probably know if it was. Lots of businesses don’t have confidential information.

      1. Judge Judy and Executioner*

        All registered businesses who pay their contractors and employees in the US has confidential information, like names, addresses, and social security numbers of employees. The business is required to collect the information for 1099 or W2 employees. I would assume many other countries require similar information to be collected. Now, not everyone in a business has access to confidential information, but saying “lots of businesses don’t have confidential information” is inaccurate. Unless a business is paying employees under the table, which is illegal, businesses absolutely have confidential information.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          Yes every business has confidential information. But that doesn’t mean the OP has access to that information or would be using it

        2. Freya*

          Yes, here in Australia, we’re required to collect sensitive personal information in order to employ people, and we’re also required to NOT disclose that information, even to co-workers, except where it is required for employment OR we have the employee’s/potential employee’s/unsuccessful applicant’s specific consent OR it is covered by something like a court order.

          I deal with payroll so I have access to that information where it is relevant to payroll. If my screen was visible on a security camera, then access to employees’ sensitive personal information would be granted to those reviewing that security footage, and the business would be in breach of the Privacy Act. Not all businesses are required to comply with the Privacy Act, but it’s considered good practice to do so, and there’s other legislation that also covers things like your tax file number.

    3. MCMonkeybean*

      I agree that might be an easy framing if you want to push back. Though depending on the setup I guess it’s possibly they might suggest you rearrange your desk instead…

    4. Annie2*

      I would hate the filming either way, but it would be a rare security camera that captures a clear enough image to legibly show what’s on a computer screen in the room. That might provide some comfort to OP if they can’t get the camera moved – and the likelihood that no one is actually watching the footage. It’s usually just kept (usually for a limited period of time – like only 72 hours or so) for review if something does happen.

      1. LW3*

        This is a comfort, thank you! The camera is pretty close (about two feet behind me, I would say?) and I don’t know how high quality it is, which is what’s driven my… anxiety, maybe. I’m just thinking about how inexpensive HD security cameras were for my home!

        I think you’re completely right in that no one is actually watching the feed and the video will just be reviewed if something *does* happen (knock on wood). We don’t have a security person or anything. So at the very, very least no one’s watching me during the entire work day..!

    1. Ellis Bell*

      You’re being unkind, but that’s by the by given how you’ve misread the letter. It’s clear that from the reaction by other people in the meeting that the manager misjudged this joke badly given that it was mostly about OP’s project.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I find the colleagues’ reaction reassuring, for what it’s worth.

        If they had all chuckled along with Boss, that would speak to a work environment in which either people are thoughtless or they are used to appeasing a thoughtless boss.

        Since it sounds as though there was a collective cringe, on the other hand, I would conclude that it was an uncharacteristic foot-in-mouth moment for Boss, or at the very least that the rest of the team has tact!

        2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          What I took from it too.

          OP the fact that the rest of the people in the meeting found it tone deaf should make you feel better. You weren’t overreacting, they found it the wrong thing to say. So go forth knowing your colleagues agree with you.

    2. duinath*

      I don’t think it makes them sound immature at all.

      I think the boss made an ill-timed, ill-thought out comment, which would naturally sting because it was poorly done.

      Mistakes happen. We are all human. But this was boss’ mistake, not LW’s.

    3. Allonge*

      I don’t see where ‘immature’ comes from – I suppose you could argue that OP overreacted, or that they did not consider that boss had a different meaning in mind, but none of that points to immaturity.

      OP actually asks if they are overreacting and asked a trusted source about the situation. That is plenty mature in the face of something that was genuinely hurtful to them.

  9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP2 (scientist turned lunch orderer) – what does it mean to “ride it out”? If it means just accepting it or hoping things will change in the future (hint: they won’t) – No. It’s time to move on to somewhere your skills can be used and appreciated. Remember it’s now been 2 years of not using your degree, in that sense you are now 2 years behind your “peers” in terms of actual relevant experience.

    Normally I don’t bring gender into things but I do wonder if there’s a gender element to this. Is OP female / female-presenting? I almost wonder if there’s a “women aren’t technical” dynamic here.

    1. WS*

      Yeah, I have seen men pushed into more menial roles (and more physical roles, in the case of nursing), but not into admin specifically. That’s always been seen as a “woman’s job”.

    2. Emmy Noether*

      LW being a woman is the first place my mind went. It’s a more extreme variation of only the women being asked to take notes/make coffee. I can guarantee you every female (-presenting) scientist, engineer, IT person etc. on here has personal experience with this. Luckily, there are places that are no longer like this, so I can only add my voice to the chorus of GET OUT.

      (Source: I’m a female physicist. I have stories.)

      1. Edwina*

        Female IT person here. Since I’ve read about this in AAM, I never offer to share my notes with the whole team (and no one has asked).

        1. Helen Waite*

          Female former IT person here. My first IT job was when the field was in its infancy. I never even brought a pen to our infrequent meetings. If there was anything I needed to remember, I’d brain dump afterward.

    3. Cinn*

      I had the same thought re gender. I was also trying to work out if there was a similar trend to half the team leaving, but then realised if this guy didn’t think women can be technical (and yep, some people do think that) then he wouldn’t have employed that many women.

      But as WS & Emmy Noether said, we’ve all got stories or met the kind of people who very much think the women on the team will naturally just do the admin for them (or worse). Heck, the cookie story in the round-up yesterday. And, also as WS said, there’s similar tasks where the reverse is true and it becomes the men’s job.

      1. sometimeswhy*

        It’s possible he inherited the team. All the women marching out the door because he’s a lout remains on the table.

      1. Margaret Cavendish*

        This! OP2, you’ve been riding it out this entire time – there’s nothing more to be gained from sticking around. Start polishing off that resume, and if the boss takes it personally…well, that’s his problem. Perhaps if he had been a better boss, he wouldn’t have so many people trying to leave.

      2. sometimeswhy*

        I mean, yes. I don’t think it applies in *this* situation and that OP2 should ABSOLUTLEY leave if they can but while individual leaders may not change their behavior, the people in the roles do. I’ve had to do the outlast calculation a few times in my career but I’ve always been doing the work I want to be doing, just under terrible leadership.

    5. Sara without an H*

      Yeah, on reading this, my first thought was Male-boss-Female-scientist. We don’t know that, of course, since OP2 is silent on the issue.

      But there’s really no point in trying to “ride it out.” Until what happens? The boss retires? Quits? Is struck blind by the goddess Athena until he mends his ways?

      OP2, don’t wait around. Polish up your resume/CV, start checking job boards in your field, and discreetly alert trustworthy members of your network. Alison has lots of good stuff in the archives about cover letters and resumes. You’ve gone as far as you can in this role, and your boss isn’t going to help you advance any further. Time to find something else that will let you actually build your career.

      Good luck, and keep us posted.

    6. OP2*

      Thank you for your advice. Yes, I am female with a male boss. When I say rude it out, I mean should I stay because there are some good benefits? For example, I have a very flexible work schedule, my coworkers (who are left) are mostly delightful, and my entire company recently increased salary bands so my pay was raised from 45k-55k in a low cost of living state. Surprisingly, the job postings I’ve seen online are usually lower than my pay now. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong place?

      1. BuildMeUp*

        I think the question you need to ask is, are those benefits worth it if 5 years from now the situation hasn’t changed and you’re still not doing the work you want to be doing? Because it doesn’t sound like your boss is open to changing. If there are opportunities for advancement, will you be passed up for them because you can’t provide examples of relevant work?

        2. Cautionary Tale*

          Worse than that, you may be at risk for not being competitive for equivalent jobs five years from now either. This is a major factor in how some people with “useful” graduate degrees and good experience end up underemployed in midlife.

          I can think of people who were hired out of their MS into, say, Analyst II positions 10-15 years ago and would have been considered very strong applicants back then. Some of those people don’t have the skills mix that would make them competitive applicants for their own position today, or even for Analyst I positions that require less education and experience. They often don’t have the breadth or desire to advance to leadership positions, and they can’t demonstrate the technical skills now needed for other advancement opportunities or switching industries. There’s absolutely nothing wrong being an admin but this is a very unpleasant path to becoming a not-particularly-good one. If salaries for better jobs in your field don’t look appealing, keep in mind that the jobs that don’t require your domain knowledge or technical skills will likely pay even less.

          Wanting to be patient and not being eager to advance are perfectly fine, but staying where you are may render your investment in your skills worthless.

  10. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, I’m guessing your boss meant something like “we’ve had a really high turnover lately/have hired people from a wide variety of backgrounds lately and not all have been a success but it looks like you are going to be. It’s great we finally got what looks like a good hire.”

    It was phrased REALLY badly and I’m not surprised you were hurt. And I think it does indicate at least that your boss is tactless and doesn’t think about how his words affect people, but it sounds like the worst possibility is that he wasn’t expecting much when you were hired but he has now started to change his opinion and think you likely to be a good member of the team.

    And I’m not really sure there’s much you can do now, other than be aware of the fact that your boss says that kind of thing and watch out to see if there is a pattern of him being dismissive of others or callous or saying hurtful things.

  11. Jennifleur*

    God, I would love to have worked for someone reasonable, re the security cameras. My last job there was a camera pointed at almost every computer in the building, and the owner looked regularly. The job before that the owner rearranged the department furniture so that every single screen was facing the door.

    1. InSearchOf9000*

      Yeah, while I sympathize at the person feeling singled out, it sounds accidental. Having worked in warehouses where every single inch was covered in surveillance, it’s hard for me to even notice cameras – I just assume I’m being watched.

      1. LW3*

        Oh for sure, I think the positioning was accidental or a “I wasn’t thinking about that” kind of situation! I’m pretty sure our CEO or CTO set up the cameras, and just plopping the cameras down and not thinking about what else they might capture is absolutely in line with how they act. It wasn’t intentionally done to me; it just happens that I’m the only one this is happening to!

      2. Starbuck*

        Yeah this is one of those luxuries (sometimes) of being an office worker – my food service jobs I was on camera the entire time and it’s the same for my friends in retail. I’ve worked in places where this would seem like a request for cover to goof off; and places that would immediately be understanding of someone’s request not to be filmed in a space that isn’t open to the general public. So, good luck to LW.

    2. Freya*

      My PTSD has a problem with having my back to the door. My co-workers and boss are really good about approaching me in my eyeline and always get my attention first, because it’s polite. And also, we regularly deal with people’s personal sensitive information as a routine part of work (yay payroll!) and information which you don’t know is information you can’t disclose, so we don’t WANT to accidentally see anyone’s screen, just in case!

  12. Square*

    #1: I read that as a comment towards other recent hires who might have come and gone due to things not working out for whatever reason; not as a comment towards or about the LW. It obviously isn’t a super professional comment to make as a manager, but I see it as one that ranks low on the spectrum that it would come across as being overly sensitive if raised again.

    1. Myrin*

      Yeah, I’ve learned that I’m apparently particularly unbothered by a lot of things others would be bothered by but if I had been OP in that situation, I wouldn’t have thought this referred to me in even a general way, let alone a targetted one.
      It was an unkind and especially unprofessional remark to make about new hires/subordinates, but OP seems to be taking it really personally and emotionally which I honestly don’t see any reason for unless there have been other situations where she thought her boss thinks badly of her.

  13. Instructor*

    Related to Question 5: What do you all think of applying the jury duty question to students? I require attendance because I’ve found it vastly improves student performance in the college courses I teach. At the beginning of each quarter term, I always tell students and state in the syllabus that they have X number of absences to use for any reason, but to use them carefully because if they use them up early because they just want to skip class for no reason, they may need them later for a serious one. In a previous year, a student blew off several classes (more than X) because she didn’t feel like coming to class and then was assigned to jury duty. She was angry that I would not give her attendance credit even though she missed the additional jury days, because she said she could not help that the government called her to duty (and provided no documentation, but that’s a separate issue). What would you have done?
    (My previous comment nested in a thread on an unrelated question, not sure why)

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Can they get exempted? If not, then it seems unfair to penalise them. Now, in her case, I think your response was reasonable, but if somebody missed more than X number of absences for the jury duty alone and they had no option but to do it, I think it would be reasonable to treat those absences in the same way one would treat say a hospital stay.

      In Ireland, though, full time students are on the list of people who can ask to be excused so basically, they have the choice as to whether they want to do it or not. I don’t know if that is the same elsewhere. If it is the same where you are, I’d be less likely to give credit.

      1. Nonsense*

        It’s a toss up in the States on what will you get you exempted from jury duty. In my experience, students are usually the most picked to actually sit, as they typically face the least hardship in doing so (fewer responsibilities, or so the legal world still believes, and you can always take the class again next semester if you can’t catch up [said to my face]).

        1. Jackalope*

          Cool beans. Are they going to pay the thousands of dollars to cover the cost of retaking the class? Along with the thousands of dollars to cover lost scholarships if my GPA goes below the required amount?

          1. fhqwhgads*

            In my experience you don’t need to try to get exempted for being a student. You can just reschedule to some time months later. So called during classes (or especially, exams), reschedule yourself for summer break.
            That said you can also generally get excused for financial hardship. And “if I’m here for 3 weeks I will miss enough class to fail it and need to retake and paying for that is a financial hardship” counts.

        2. Ally McBeal*

          Interesting – I was only called for jury duty once while in college. Voir dire took place 8 days before classes resumed (2.5 hours away) after summer break, and it was a kidnapping/murder case expected to last several weeks. Because of the tight timing, I was excused right away. I would be furious if the court had insisted I stay – courses are expensive, as are room & board, and not everyone can just swallow the financial hit!

    2. Emmy Noether*

      I think the problem with this policy is the “when it rains it pours” effect, where sometimes there just are a series of unfortunate circumstances out of the student’s control. Like say this student had been sick instead of just not feeling it, then had a family emergency, and then jury duty. Sometimes *stuff* just happens – are students going to be penalized for that?

      But then if you make exceptions, you have to make judgement calls on what counts, maybe ask for proof. That can be a lot of work, and it will also never be entirely fair.

      Personally, I really enjoyed that university did not care about attendance. I could skip lectures that were useless (although I rarely did, because I generally enjoy lectures), and one semester, I “attended” two lectures simultaneously, because that was the only way they were offered. Of course performance does suffer – but the professors’ attitude was that we were adults and our performance was our responsibility. (Caveat: this was Germany. Attitudes about universities’ role and responsibility differ).

      1. Cat Tree*

        To expand on why I’m flabbergasted – what’s the alternative? If you don’t excuse those absences, would the students have to choose between failing the class or breaking the law to skip jury duty?

        You’ve got a beef with one specific student but you can’t apply policies unevenly based on how annoyed you are with the specific student. And you really do need to have a policy of allowing students to serve jury duty when they are legally required to.

        1. Dawnshadow*

          Presumably the class has objectives that need to be met by, like, actually attending. If the student has already missed more than the limit, and now is facing missing possibly a week or two more, how are they going to make up the time? These days, so many classes are group project meetings or collaborative learning. If this student is missing this much class, how well can they be learning the material?

          Higher learning isn’t supposed to be a reward that can be arbitrarily bestowed or withheld to punish the student. It’s supposed to be about learning. And these days that involves so much more than just glancing over class notes. In the long run it doesn’t help anyone to just give the student credit for a class when they have missed multiple class hours.

          1. Emmy Noether*

            But attendance is a very poor proxy for learning. It’s better to just see if they handed in their work and passed the tests. The way to see how well they learned the material is to get evidence of how well they learned the material. They may have perfect attendance and been daydreaming the whole time, learning nothing.

            1. Pescadero*

              The big issue is labs and group projects.
              You can’t do the work in those areas without being physically present.

              1. Emmy Noether*

                Sure, but for labs or group projects, you don’t give X freebie absences to start with, because that’s not fair to the other students. You have a system to make up for excused absences, and you may have to pull the student from group work entirely if they can’t do their part and give an alternate assignment. Even if that ends up not being feasible, it’s still about completing work, not attendance per se.

          2. Media Monkey*

            most people on this site would agree that bums on seats/ time spent in an office at a desk isn’t the best metric to guage work performance (and instead it should be based on work output). but for students it’s all about bums on seats in a classroom? can’t you grade people based on their assignments/ exams? when i was at uni (in the UK and in the mists of the 1990s), tutorials had attendance requirements but for lectures in large halls with at least 60-100 people, no one knew if you were there or not.

        2. nerdgal*

          One reason for exemption from jury duty in my state is “enrolled and in actual attendance at an institution of higher education.” It’s not “breaking the law” to claim that exemption. I am sure that my state isn’t the only one.

          1. Observer*

            Sure. But the poster was not claiming that the student chose not to take the exemption.

            Now, it would have been *totally* reasonable for them to insist on documentation that they had been called for jury duty *and* that they had tried to get an exemption. But if the student had that, then this professor was just out of line.

      2. Resentful Oreos*

        Jury duty is a civic *and legal* requirement. You don’t get to just skip out without an excuse. This professor has an inappropriate and cynical attitude toward their students, and I, for one, am glad they are not my teacher.

    4. Colette*

      I think you should allow X unexcused absences, and consider an excused absence policy for things for which there is proof (such as jury duty, hospitalization, death of a close family member, etc.)

      1. mlem*

        In mine they explicitly aren’t, though they can request to defer to the summer or a break. (“Every qualified citizen between 18 and 70” is required to serve. None of the disqualifications concern occupation; they’re things like having served too recently or not understanding English.) Even residents of other states are required to serve, if they live in this state for at least half the year.

      2. Pescadero*

        Unlikely.

        Only 4 states allow it as an excuse – and in most cases it merely delays when you are subject to jury duty (outside the school year) rather than exempts you.

    6. Some Dude*

      I think this is terrible and I would be going to the dean with my concerns if a professor pulled something like this on me. It doesn’t matter how many absences she had by that point, failing to appear for jury duty can result in fines and jail time.

      What are your state laws regarding this? I just looked up my home state of Ohio, and students compelled for jury duty have the option to withdraw from classes with a full refund with no penalties. If they complete jury duty and the instructor tells them they cannot complete the coursework due to their absence, again, the student can withdraw.

    7. Resentful Oreos*

      It really depends. I would not penalize a student for being called to jury duty. If you dock their grades to “teach them a lesson” which they didn’t need, because jury duty is a civic duty, you are treating your students like naughty and untrustworthy children. They will hate you. And these days it’s pretty important that professors are liked by their students. So don’t.

      Now if the student just skips class for no reason whatsoever, that is different. But, stuff happens to students as well as workers! They get sick, they have jury duty, they have ill or dying family members.

      There is no value in a “perfect attendance” trophy. Treat your students like adults and not naughty kids. Most courts will supply a stamped slip if someone has jury duty; you can alwyas ask for that.

      1. Freya*

        One of my university subjects, pre-Covid, the lecturer attempted to ensure people attended lectures by only uploading the week’s worth of lecture recordings at COB on Fridays. Given that the Wednesday and Friday morning lectures carried on from the Monday morning one with no recap, if you missed the Monday lecture, it was basically useless to go to the Wednesday and Friday ones until you’d watched the lecture recording (which was only made available on Friday evening). I elected to ONLY watch the lecture recordings after the first week of people coughing and sneezing incessantly through the whole lecture… I couldn’t afford to be sick, and the lecture theatre was a petri dish of germs from people attending while sick.

  14. Small mind*

    rando LW, it’s a clearly a joke. your response seems a bit much. frankly, it doesn’t even sound like the boss called you a rando.

    1. KateM*

      Interesting then that “the room went silent except for a couple of awkward laughs” – surely the rest of team should have roared at such a great joke?

      1. Laure001*

        Not the initial commenter but I think both are true. The joke was tactless and the Letter Writer overreacted somewhat.

  15. TheLinguistBaker*

    LW5, it may be worth seeing if the judge can have some influence on your job’s decision, especially if there’s a chance you will need multiple days off, you don’t have a lot of PTO, or it’s unclear how long you’ll be out. I have seen judges call offices for jury candidates and use their position to defend the candidate from any repercussions at work; I would not be surprised for them to do the same with witnesses.

    1. Ipsifendus*

      LW5 here…that’s an interesting thought, but I’m don’t know that it would be worth it in my particular case; I have the PTO to cover the time I’ll be gone, and it’s very unlikely to be more than a single day. I was just interested in what the consensus would be from Alison and the commentariat here.

    2. Ipsifendus*

      LW5 here. That’s an interesting idea, but I don’t know that it would be worth it in my specific case. I have PTO to cover the time, and I’m not likely to miss more than one day. I was more interested in seeing what the consensus would be from Alison and the commenters here.

  16. Falling Diphthong*

    OP2: Half our team quit and I’m getting the feeling he wants me to be an admin assistant rather than the scientist I am.
    Run!

    My November theme at AAM is “Management tries to use the sunk cost fallacy to keep their employees or job applicants.”

  17. Lab Boss*

    OP2: As a fellow scientist, get out. Actively discouraging early-career scientists from giving presentations is NOT normal and it is NOT something that happens by accident. Every boss I’ve ever had in this field has pushed in the exact opposite direction, wanting me to give way more talks and presentations than I really wanted to do. And I’ve done the same with people who report to me. The opportunities for speaking are out there, and you speaking (as long as you’re even vaguely competent) boosts the profile of you, your department, and your company. For him to be actively trying to prevent it, know that he’s deliberately trying to stall your professional development.

    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Excellent points. I want to add that if you are a comfortable and competent speaker, you should definitely use those skills as much as you can. We need more comfortable, competent speakers in the world!

      1. OP2*

        Thank you both for such kind advice. Yes, my speaking ability is one of my skills that I know is incredibly strong. I guess I don’t really know how to turn that into a lucrative job though.

  18. Over Analyst*

    LW 2: When I was a much more junior person, I was also the only woman on my team, and I had someone constantly demanding my help making charts look “pretty” and other creative pursuits instead of the highly technical job I was hired to do (which I did well; I had published a paper on the topic the year before). I complained to my boss and he told me to just suck it up and not make waves. I don’t feel it held me back since my leadership saw my potential and actual work, but it was frustrating to no end, I’m still annoyed to think about it ten years and seven promotions/job changes/advances later, and I was much happier once I got away from that person. Given your situation is within your leadership chain, definitely GET OUT. It’s not going to get better, you could be holding yourself back, and you’ll be a lot happier in a job that uses your skills.

  19. MCMonkeybean*

    LW1 – I definitely get why that felt like a hurtful comment, but the way it’s presented here it sounds like it was maybe meant to be a compliment that was really poorly worded! I seems like maybe you guys had a bunch of open positions that had to get filled quickly? That does often lead to hiring people that you don’t dig into as much as usual which can of course mean that some of them turn out not to be great. This sounds to me like your boss was saying it’s a big relief to find out that even though you got hired through a less thorough process, you turned out to be a great employee!

  20. AvonLady Barksdale*

    LW #2, I could have written that letter a few years ago. I was on the executive team at a small company, I had over a decade of experience in our business, I loved presenting, and my boss would actively block my success. A colleague and I were invited to present at a conference, and because I was the one who had done the project, I did the presentation myself. My boss’s response was, “Oh, you did that?” like he was shocked. I got press coverage and he refused to acknowledge it. While I was traveling for that presentation, he emailed me to remind me to complete a task for another project– a task that wasn’t due for at least a week. He just wanted to remind me that my primary role was as the person who ran his projects.

    He never stopped treating me like his assistant, and he also never stopped speaking to me like I had no idea what he was doing. If I hit it off with a client, he had to make a point that the client had always liked him too. I put up with this for four years, stuck for various reasons. I spent the entire last year job-searching.

    There is no winning with such narcissists. Anyway, when I left, he said, “But this was going to be your year! I was going to send you to a conference to speak!” and I said, “It shouldn’t have taken four years for you to do that.” And because I am petty, I wrote a ton of Facebook posts (my boss friended all of his employees, and I accepted early on because I had no idea what was to come) about how happy I was to be at such a great company and getting such great feedback. I have no doubt that my former boss saw those posts and they made him mad, he was that full of himself.

    TL;DR– you can leave. You should. He won’t change and you deserve to be treated better. Will it help if you say anything? Probably not. But you can if you want to. He won’t take it to heart anyway, but at least it will be on record.

    1. OP2*

      Thank you! Thank you! Yes, I remember after one of my presentations when a fellow woman said I did a great job in front of my boss and I shortly thereafter asked him what he thought, my boss said that there was nuance missing in my presentation and that would come with time. He only told me I did a good job after one of our most senior team members told him to praise me – I heard the whisper since we were all seated next to each other.

      1. DarthMom*

        OP 2, PLEASE be sure to tell HR or your Grandboss why you are leaving… they need to know! All the best to you!

  21. I Count the Llamas*

    OP #3 – My office upgraded security cameras and installed new ones. Several employees felt like you did – the camera could see right into their office and they felt uncomfortable. Security had a way (perhaps through the camera software?) to “black out” the part of the camera view that showed the interior of an office but they could still view the hall, etc. It might be worth asking if the same could be done for the camera pointed towards your office?

    1. LW3*

      Thank you, that’s very useful info! I’m going to ask my supervisor about moving the camera at our next meeting and suggest this if they can’t move the camera itself.

  22. o_gal*

    LW3: Be very concerned about the camera pointed at your desk. The problem is that if someone reviews the footage for a certain time interval and sees you – let’s say – on your phone, they could misinterpret that as you “always” on your phone. Even if you are, in the space of the 2 minutes of footage they reviewed, answering a text from a nursing home concerning a new medication for one of your parents. You may have only been on the phone for that 2 minutes, but that’s all they’re going to see.

    I was once on a remote project that had lots, and I mean LOTS, of downtime. I was working remotely (2017, not due to COVID) on a project where I had to wait until the other developers released code for a website, then it was my job to apply styling to make it conform to the project standard. HUGE amounts of downtime. But when I had work to do, I instantly grabbed it, worked it, and finished it (and yes, it was boring but it was the project that was available at that time to give me coverage.) Unfortunately, my desk was in a fairly visible area, so my grandboss would walk by at random times and see me not doing work. Never mind the fact that I was not doing even close to the amount of non-work that other people, in more sheltered areas, were getting away with. Nope, my cube was just outside his office, with my screen facing the hallway. I ended up getting written up for it. Don’t let this happen to you – push for getting the camera angle adjusted, as much as you can.

    1. LW3*

      I’m sorry this happened to you! This is kind of one of my fears, honestly. I’ve been at this job for some time now, and not to toot my own horn, but I work quickly and do my job well enough that I have quite a bit of downtime every day. I usually spend time doing research into our competitors, and that does look like I’m just online shopping :P So I just want to head that off at the pass! I will definitely ask my supervisor about the camera at our next meeting.

  23. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    2. Been there, done that and I second Alison that you need to run.

    Because the longer you stay the more inertia you have to battle against to move anywhere, and you’ve got an opposing force to add to the equation too.

    I had years of being told I was a genius and great and wonderful but oh no we can’t promote you or pay you more but we might revisit it later and it’s a LIE. As soon as you start applying elsewhere you generally sus out that your current place is telling massive porkies. And staying in jobs where you’re being treated badly not only does a right number on your self-esteem but also can instill some very bad habits as coping mechanisms.

  24. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    #5 situation is frustrating. I was the victim of a stalker where the guy beat up the cops after they arrived on the scene. So the case was somewhat related to the stalking, but more the fact that he beat up cops. There were two years of constant hearings and phone calls with the DA’s office. I made up the time if it was feasible, but sometimes it just wasn’t. I told my supervisor I was marking that time as jury duty. She didn’t give me a hard time AT ALL. Neither did HR. The whole thing was not my fault so why should I have had to give up precious vacation time to go through the justice system? I really hope #5’s company comes around. If my company hadn’t treated me well during that time, I would have been looking for a new job.

  25. Benihana scene stealer*

    I read #1 completely differently. To me it sounded like the boss was specifically complimenting LW, saying they are different than the other new hires.

    Maybe it wasn’t the best wording but it doesn’t sound like it’s something to get too worked up over.

    1. Hroethvitnir*

      Would “oh hey, you’re not awful like I expected!” make you feel… good?

      Yeah, the LW is perhaps mulling too much, but come on.

      1. a trans person*

        Also “the other employees are shit except you” is INTENSELY demotivating for me to hear. This reading is basically as bad as the direct insult reading, to me.

  26. Cyndi*

    Said this in a thread up there but I think it’s worth elaborating further: a lot of people seem to think LW1’s boss was trying to compliment her and even if they were, I really don’t think that’s better than the way LW took it.

    I had a high school teacher who would “compliment” students by telling them how terrible other students were. I’ve had managers who “complimented” people by telling them how terrible their predecessors or coworkers were. I haven’t dated any “all my exes were nuts, thank God you’re different!” types, but last I checked that was generally considered a red flag in that arena, too.

    It’s catty and unprofessional and it’s always, in my experience, been a sign that things are going to go wrong.

    1. Milltown*

      Yes, it’s the “you’re not like other girls” of the workplace. It is very possible to compliment someone without needing to get in a dig at someone else.

  27. Candy*

    OP3: We just went through updating the cctv cameras at my office and, considering how much the security company charged just to set foot in the building, you might have better luck simply shifting your desk or monitor a bit than convincing your boss to bring back techs to move the camera a couple inches

    1. LW3*

      The cameras aren’t mounted on the walls or ceilings or anything, to be honest they kind of look like webcams! I think our CEO and CTO set them up themselves (it’s not done super professionally, they’re just kinda plopped down in places around our office), so I feel like it must be easy to move? I would consider moving my computer to the other side of my L desk, but my back would face the rest of our open office and that feels very awkward.

  29. Sara without an H*

    Re LW#1: Managers, if you read this, please, please be hyper aware of your word choice, tone, body language, etc. Your reports will always watch you harder than you watch them. Trust takes years to build, but seconds to destroy.

    LW#1, if you’re reading this, take Alison’s advice and watch the situation. Does your manager have a habit of making throwaway remarks like this? Is there a senior employee you could ask for context? I’m betting you’ll find that your boss has a habit of shooting off his mouth without first engaging his brain, and then claiming to be joking.

    Commenters upstream who have been telling you that you’re overreacting have not been exactly helpful. My suggestion would be to file this comment away, and watch how the situation develops. Most likely, this will turn out to be nothing. If you find yourself in a situation like OP#2, with a boss who regularly devalues you and blocks your advancement, then you can start job hunting.

  30. Elsewise*

    LW1: My assumption is that the boss typically hires people based on recommendations, and LW was an “outside” hire, and that’s what the “rando” comment was referring to. Still a weird thing to say but probably had more to do with the circumstances of your hiring than how they think of you currently!

  31. hm*

    LW #1 – it doesn’t sound like that joke had anything to do with you. It would be different if he said “Glad this went well considering that rando we just hired” but just talking about the hiring pattern recently doesn’t necessarily have something to do with you. In fact, I would say it’s more clearly not directed at you if you’ve been knocking it out of the park.

    Not commenting on whether “Rando” is an appropriate phrase to be used in that context.

  32. cactus lady*

    #5 – I was subpoenaed as a witness earlier in a similar case this year and was given the option to testify via Zoom. It only took about an hour of my time and I didn’t need to use PTO for it. It might be worthwhile to see if that is an option in your area.

  33. Birchwood*

    Regarding LW1:

    Even if I thought the boss was referring to me, my default (assuming a generally good relationship so far) would be that they were making a joke, which meant that they comfortable enough with me to do that. It would be a sign of friendliness, not a signal of deeper issues.

    It could be a straight-up insult, but unless there’s other clear evidence that that’s the case, I’d default to a generous interpretation even if I filed it away in my brain as something to pay attention to going forward.

    To be clear, not arguing that it’s wrong to notice or even be a little hurt by the comment, but “he means I’m a bad hire” is not the only way to read it, or even the one I’d go to first.

  34. CubeFarmer*

    #1: I want to print out this letter and leave it in our president’s office. It must be lonely at the top of an organization when you don’t have anyone else on your level, that’s not an excuse for some of the “jokey” things she says regarding PTO requests. They can be so wildly inappropriate.

  35. Hamster dance*

    Honestly I read number one as a compliment. In that the boss was saying that now that LW1 is here, things are finally turning around? The boss worded it very clumsily but it just didn’t immediately ping as an insult. And definitely not one warranting the LW’s “well I guess I’ll just change my name to Some Rando!!! passive aggressive reaction. So IDK, maybe looking at it that way would help the LW not be so upset over this?

  36. LW3*

    Thanks for your advice Alison! In hindsight it feels very reasonable and practical and now I’m wondering if I overthought the whole situation, lol. I do have to be reminded sometimes that, like.. it’s not weird to just *ask*.

    I missed the opportunity to ask my supervisor at our meeting earlier today, but I will definitely do so at our next. I’ll keep you updated :)

  37. Blue Pen*

    Sympathy to LW#1! If your boss doesn’t have a track record of devaluing you or your work, I would chalk it up to a misplaced, boneheaded comment.

    But I know how you feel — in my last job, there was someone on the team (who had been there way longer than I had) who was remarkably similar to me; our names were close in pronunciation, we did mostly the same kind of work, and we both had a quieter demeanor. I can’t tell you how many times people would mistakenly address me by that person’s name; and even though I know they never meant anything malicious by it, it still stung.

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