open thread – November 29, 2024

by Alison Green on November 29, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 311 comments }

{ 311 comments… read them below }

  1. Being shown the door*

    HELP!

    I was recently approached by a recruiter for an amazing opportunity. I have not been job hunting, but this was something that was too good to pass up, so I decided to move forward with it. The company had to push back the hiring timeline a bit so it’s been several weeks, and I haven’t yet been presented as a candidate.

    Well somehow…. My boss found out. And now is pushing me out. I am a senior manager and have never had any negative feedback (I have been here for 6 years) and all of a sudden my manager has started having skip-levels with my reports, making management decisions without telling or including me, and generally acting like I’ll be leaving in 2 weeks. But also not acknowledging any of this directly.

    I have my annual review on Monday. Is there anything I can do/say in this situation? I’m not even sure if I’ll be seriously considered for this new position and I wasn’t planning on job hunting aside from it. Generally I like my job and have been happy here – this was a one off thing that fell in my lap. Any ideas how to bring it up? Is that even worthwhile? Should I start job hunting for real?

    1. WellRed*

      Oof. I guess you could bring this up in your review. Your second full paragraph sums up your tenure positively and calmly and names the behavior you’re seeing. If your boss definitely knows, you have nothing to lose. Unfortunately your boss is being so unreasonable I think you have no choice but to ramp up search in earnest. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Do you know for sure your boss knows and that’s the reason they’re behaving this way? Or are you just assuming because they’re behaving oddly, that this must be the reason why?

      You could approach it from the “I’m curious about this behaviour” angle, e.g. “Boss, I noticed you’ve started meeting directly with my team and I’ve felt a bit out of the loop on your decisions lately. Is there something going on I should know about? Or is there anything you need from my team that you’re not currently getting from me that I should make sure to keep you informed about going forward?” Etc.

      If there is any way you can humanly avoid bringing it up in your annual review, I would do that. Which would probably mean talking to your boss about it today.

      1. ursula*

        This is the best advice. Only address it directly if you’re 100% sure that your boss knows. And also I think it’s wise to try to separate it from your annual review, since that becomes part of your permanent HR record in most cases.

      2. Being shown the door*

        (Being intentionally vague here.)

        I don’t know for certain that boss knows, however something that happened at a standing monthly meeting earlier this week is what led me to suspect that because it’s the only explanation that makes sense. I am in charge of long-term planning for a major project and boss and I meet monthly to discuss it. The recruiter contacted me after our last meeting and before this one. At the meeting earlier this week, boss asked me point blank how long I planned to stay in my role – I have no idea what precipitated that – and it caught me really off guard. I know I fumbled a little (because who expects that from their boss??) but told them that I don’t have any intentions of leaving and I’m happy with my role. However I received an email this morning that boss had made a TON of major changes to the project, which were all things they had said they would do if I were to leave. This is on top of the other stuff mentioned above. The project had been going well and I have a good relationship with our external stakeholder, so I’m not sure why my boss would usurp my role unless they expected me to leave.

        1. WellRed*

          Oh I wouldn’t assume your boss found out then. Proceed with caution but you definitely need to address what you are seeing,

          1. Being shown the door*

            Please just trust me that this is most likely what is going on. There’s a lot more that I can’t write without being too obvious

            1. Arrietty*

              Even if it is the most likely explanation, you have absolutely no obligation to show your hand, and you can proceed as though you have no idea what has prompted this – and even if they ask you outright if you’ve applied to another job, you can honestly say you have not, and you’ve not been offered another job, and you’ve not (as I understand it) been interviewed for another job. Make them tell you directly what’s going on, but you don’t have to tell them. “A recruiter messaged me” is so far from “I’m leaving in two weeks” that it’s barely visible.

            2. No confirmed facts*

              As Arrietty said, you have no obligation to show your hand. So far, it is only relevant what happened between your boss and you.
              You did not change your modus operandi, they did, and it is on you to clarify why. You need to be cautious, sure, but you will hurt yourself if you act as if this was confirmed info between the two of you. Also, checking one opportunity does mean you were actively trying to get out.

    3. LynnP*

      Document everything that has been happening and bring it up. Make your manager own it. If he’s trying to push you out you don’t have anything to lose and perhaps something to negotiate a severance package with.

      Als, ramp up your job search. Good luck!

    4. Ellis Bell*

      Name the new behaviours and refer to the meetings and leaving you out of the loop, and say you’re concerned. I would probably say something like “It’s worrying because it’s so different to what’s worked in the past. Also, (long term plans) will require me to be up to speed on (management decision). How will I meet next year’s targets if I don’t know about these things?” Just generally refer to events happening ages in the future. If this doesn’t prompt them to acknowledge the chance of you being gone by then directly, I might risk saying “I could be wrong, but things changed around the time I was approached by New Opportunity. I want to make it clear that this wasn’t something I sought, and I haven’t heard anything tempting enough from them for me to leave this position, as I’m really happy here.” or “It was intriguing, but not particularly tempting”. Even if you’re strongly tempted by the concept, you haven’t had a chance to interview them either, and you don’t even yet know if it’s a serious prospect. If you’re pressed for more details just say “All I can really say is that I’m not job hunting”. If you end up taking the job, just say “They addressed some of my main concerns so well, that I became convinced it could be a good move”.

    5. Educator*

      Lie. This is one of those times when it is completely acceptable to lie.

      I would say something like “I know you were asking about my long-term plans the other day. It prompted me to think about my career goals, and if I would consider leaving if a recruiter reached out to me out of the blue like one did a few weeks ago. I can say with confidence that I want to build my career at Current Company, and I have no plans to leave. In fact, I’m really excited about Project X and Professional Development Opportunity Y in the coming months. Just wanted that on the record so it was not an elephant in the room!”

      And then if the new job does work out, it was “completely unforeseeable” and “an opportunity you never could have imagined.” But protect yourself now. That might mean quitting working with this recruiter if they don’t have a confidential process.

      1. Highlighter Cat*

        I don’t know. I once threw my hat in with a recruiter and they told my boss who was a friend of the recruiter. Totally unprofessional but it happens.

  2. CherryBlossom*

    I am in a never-ending nightmare known as The Dishware Committee, and I need to know if this is as bananapants as it feels to me.

    Context: The company I work for is moving to a new office with an employee kitchen. As such, we need new dishes. Everywhere else I’ve worked, this would be a task for an office manager or a facilities team. Buy enough dishes for people in the office, maybe round up to account for things breaking, and call it a day.

    But not here! Everyone in the CEO office is part of The Dishware Committee. The CEO and CFO constantly change their mind. They want to see samples of everything, branded and nonbranded. What about printed? Or laser-engraved? Actually no, don’t brand anything. Wait, actually, brand everything! Their Executive Assistant insists that only she knows what they “really” mean, and is constantly chattering at me to change everything. Occasionally other people from other departments chime in, and everyone changes their mind AGAIN.

    As the lowest person on the totem pole, my job is to make spreadsheets detailing every single option we’ve gone over, update it when someone decides against something, and update it again when someone else decides they like that thing after all.

    I have spent the last month updating spreadsheets and researching every single type of dishware brand in existence. If I never see another plate again, it’ll be too soon.

    I feel like I’m the only person here that thinks this is a massive waste of time. But this can’t be normal, can it? Am I in the wrong, or is this really as bananapants as I think it is?

    1. lurkyloo*

      O.o
      Entirely bananapants. On a silver platter. That may or may not be branded, engraved or disco ballin.

    2. UnCivilServant*

      These people are not a good fit for their roles. This is a task you delegate so you can focus on things that matter to the bottom line. One person, theoretically sane, should be doing this, without all the dithering.

      1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        This is do common, unfortunately, that there’s a term for it: Bikeshedding.
        Not a good use of resources…

        1. Hermione Danger*

          Agreed. In fact, I am fairly certain that this sort of situation is what the only Dutch word I know was created for: Mierenneuker.

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This is indeed a massive waste of time and this level of micromanaging from the CEO and CFO would slowly drive me to madness. Neither of them to be involved in this. No one does, but especially not them.

      Order plain white, get them from a restaurant supplier so you know they can hold up to industrial level use, and you’re done.

      1. Dishes*

        Yes. It’s a work kitchen used by many. Everything is going to get trashed, or go missing so nothing precious should be purchased. But… it seems like it’s really not up to OP, so just hope it ends soon? !

        1. CherryBlossom*

          Yep, the choice is entirely out of my hands here, otherwise I would’ve put my foot down ages ago and just gotten the plain white restaurant plates. I hope this all ends soon too!

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Banana pants and a waste of everyone’s time.

      Also, a PSA: Please consider relacing “As the lowest person on the totem pole” with “lowest person on the hierarchy” or similar, as the former phrase is an inaccurate depiction of indigenous culture.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        Thanks for letting me know! I shall update my phrasing accordingly :)

        (My kingdom for an edit button!)

    6. I think I'm the only one in the office here*

      Wow, even for bikeshedding, this is a lot of bikeshedding.

      If you can, I suggest embracing “they don’t pay me enough to care about it” and just update the spreadsheet BUT if this is taking time from your actual job, make sure you do your actual job first/keep your boss involved in how to prioritize your Actual Job vs. Picking The Color Of The Bikeshed

      1. RLC*

        This. Especially important to keep your boss informed if this absurd dishware selection exercise is affecting your ability to complete your assigned work. The dishware-obsessed higher ups are likely clueless on how much of your time their “project” has absorbed. They will then wonder why your assigned work is suffering and question your work performance. I’ve been down this road and yes, I’m still salty about it.

        1. CherryBlossom*

          I spoke about this with my manager a week ago, and was essentially told that, when it comes to what the C-Suite want, it *is* my job. In other words, my priority right now, above all else, is The Dishware Committee :(

    7. learnedthehardway*

      I’d put it right up there with rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic – ie. completely beside the point, useless, and likely a detriment to the business as it is taking up time and energy that should be devoted to other things.

      Absolutely bananapants, for sure.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I can see why stuff like this can brainworm people though; it has no real consequences and appeals to the “shiny new stuff!” part of our brains, so it becomes This Whole Thing as a fun distraction from work. Fun for everyone but the OP, who is dealing with the heads of her company demanding spreadsheets about plates and cups.

        1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          Early in my career, I was IT manager for an office of about 120 people.
          I got put in charge of the move to a new building a few blocks away, because IT needs all this complicated stuff like network wiring…
          What I actually spent a lot of time on was selecting and arranging (MAJOR drama. Who wants to sit where/with whom…) dessen and other office furniture. Everybody had OPINIONS. IT? Nobody besides my team understood that anyway, so easy as pie.

    8. Oldsbone*

      Yes, it’s totally bananapants. Would they listen if you casually mentioned a rough dollar amount this has already cost your company on devoted salary time and encourage someone who can actually do it to just go ahead and make a decision? Other posters are right it should be an office manager or facilities director or something but it looks like the discussion has taken on a life of its own. Maybe a dollar amount given to the most level headed if your C-Suite will put an end to it. But if not, get some popcorn and/or discreetly start a betting pool with a few cynical coworkers, because what else can you do?

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      The hell??? Go to Costco, pick out a bunch of dishes, done. Who the hell brands the dishes in the company break room??

    10. Bluebell Brenham*

      Wow- I don’t have suggestions for you but it is bananapants. The one time I was in an org that decided to buy new dishware, the COO and her sister went to IKEA one weekend and bought dishes and flatware. Would it have been my choice? No. But did I care? No. My only advice is to buy more flatware than you think you need, and maybe stash an extra box somewhere for future replenishment.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        ESPECIALLY spoons. I don’t know why it is, but spoons vanish twice as fast as anything else from our break room.

    11. The OG Sleepless*

      Good grief. I’ve never even seen a full matching set of dishware in an office break room. It’s normally a random assortment of about five plates that rocked up from someone’s old apartment. When would everybody even need a plate from the break room at the same time? Anyway, yes, if this really needs to happen, a normal company would just send the office manager to Costco for some dishes.

      1. Socially yours*

        “I’ve never even seen a full matching set of dishware in an office break room. “

        Which is precisely the aesthetic that the management of this company is clearly trying to avoid.

        And yes, I have worked at many companies where this wouldn’t be acceptable.

    12. WellRed*

      Are you sure the exec assistant isn’t the one being difficult here? Maybe the c suites don’t know how much time is being wasted. I’d total that time up, select a few sturdy options from a restaurant supply place with pricing and present it. Maybe they’ll start this insanity all over again, maybe they’ll get their shit together.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        The EA is definitely a factor, but it’s the C-Suites who are driving this. They attend every meeting, go over every sample, ask a million questions and insist on getting every answer before we can make a choice.

        I have indeed selected a few sturdy options that would get the job done. I presented them to my manager, and was then instructed to add them to the spreadsheet with every other option.

    13. Ellis Bell*

      Is this the kind of company that is super into crockery for some reason? Do you work for Homes and Gardens? Or is it more the type of company that is riddled with congested and ineffective decision making? If the insanity is really limited to this one issue, I’d put my feet up and tinker with the spreadsheet occasionally, knowing it’s unlikely to be a time crunch. I might have a little bit of fun with the issue “What was the deadline on this decision, I feel like it must be close and don’t want to miss it?” One idea might be to list people’s reasons against an item once they’ve ruled it out, with a con column in the spreadsheet for each dish: “VP decided against as cost 2x closest quotation”. This might help prevent people undoing the decision. You could also add a pro column with entries like “plain white, easy to replace broken items” if you want to nudge towards a decision.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        It’s ineffective decision making, truly. From what I’ve been able to pick up, there’s decision making committees for everything around here. The C-Suite, especially the CEO, loves to be involved with every single little decision, thus making themselves a huge bottleneck for everything.

    14. Zahra*

      It *is* bananapants. Sorry for the incoming stream of thought/wall of text.

      They’re going at it from the wrong side: they need to nail down the big decisions and requirements before looking at every single option possible. It makes sense to get a few samples at the start to see if branded/non branded feels right, which version of the logo/company name they want to use, laser-engraved vs printed, etc.

      Now, they need to decide on their basic requirements/minimum specs/must haves for the dishware. A few examples: won’t break the first time it’s dropped, plates not so flat that stuff will spill if the plate is tilted a bit, washes easily, can withstand the dishwasher (if applicable) and doesn’t get crazy hot when in the microwave. Do they want dessert plates and dinner plates or just one middle size? If they can’t even decide on their minimum requirements, they can think back on the dishware they have/have seen and what would make them good/bad choices for an employee kitchen. Look at Liberating Structure’s Min Specs (get all the specs possible and then agree on which of those are essential to have the dishes they need in the employee kitchen on time and on budget). Anything far outside the requirements does not even get to be voted on. Anything “not quite in the minimum specs” gets set aside in case there’s nothing quite right.

      If you can do so or have an ally who has to power to make it happen, get everyone in a room, tell them that you feel that “we’re not being efficient and we seem to be making and unmaking decisions rather frequently”. Agree to baseline rules (who gets to chime in, say what you mean in a way that doesn’t require a translator, meet every X weeks to do a status meeting where they discuss changes, decisions and look at sample and no changes between meetings, once a decision has been made for a type of dishware there are no takesies-backsies or no more than 2 change of minds, etc.). Budget? Final date for decision and who makes the final call if they’re still hesitating? Then move on to discussing those minimum and nice to have requirements.

      If you can get them to commit to a good number of those, you should have something that is easier to deal with. You’ll need the buy-in of at least one key stakeholder who can tell the FOMOs in the group that they need to commit or else. And who can tell the busy-bodies that “thank you for your input, it’s appreciated” without bringing up every little comment to meetings, especially on decisions that are already made.

      If I were as fed up as you, I would have the much reviled gumption to do it, even if I spent what some would consider too much political capital to do so. Heck, I’d probably try to get someone outside of the group to act as “agenda police (“let’s finish discussing X before talking about Y/we only have 5 more minutes to spend on X, do we need to continue that discussion next time or do we want to push another item on the agenda to next time?”), discussion mediator/facilitator, and general neutral party to keep everyone focused and on task”. That person would not get to have opinions on the decisions, even if they think the final call is ridiculous/impractical/what-have-you.

      2. Bike Walk Barb*

        I’m also a fan of Liberating Structures and Min Specs would work great here. Liberating Structures are explicitly designed to redistribute decision-making power and shift patterns of thought away from the way people have always done things. Since they seem to want to invest a lot of energy into the process, let them learn a new process while they’re at it. You can get satisfaction from that while thinking secretly how much easier it would have been to send you to Costco with the company purchasing card.

    15. Unkempt Flatware*

      Can you prepare a report showing how much the company has lost over this charade? Keep a spreadsheet of every email, chat, mention and by everyone involved included CEO and CFO. By the sounds of it, your company has paid $20,000 for bullshit dish talk. And there are not any dishes.

      1. Jay*

        Here’s how I would handle it at my employer:
        I would make an “interim suggestion, just to tide us over until we get something more permanent”.
        Plain white (or other light, solid colors so that messes show up easily) dishes.
        Make sure that they understand that this is “temporary” until they “decide on the REAL dishes”.
        If you get durable, restaurant quality dishes, you will still be using them in ten years.

      2. Socially yours*

        I don’t know what kind of industry OP works in.

        But I can assure you that if, say, a Wall Street law firm or bank has invited a potential client to the firm’s office for a pitch, they don’t want to be plating lunch on Corelle dishware, and the fees they earn from a successful pitch will make $20K
        look like a rounding error.

        Singapore Airlines trains it FAs to present dishes a certain way and to pour wine a certain way. It has paid off in spades for the airline’s branding.

        There are businesses where this sort of attention to detail and aesthetics is absolutely important.

        OP sounds like the kind of person who says “I don’t care what font you use in the presentation, just write it!!!” But yes, these sorts of things matter in many industries.

        I suggest that OP ought to execute the wishes of the c-suite to the best of her ability.

    16. Quad*

      Banana pants. For your part, I recommend adding tabs to the spreadsheet with all the permutations so that you do less work when “changes” come down from on high.

  3. Kat Maps*

    My department is swamped by work that needs to be completed before Christmas. I’m in a unionized workplace, where overtime is rare, and our managers have to request it from …some higher power unknown to me.

    I’ve had coworkers (who have different managers than me) tell me that they’ve been working late into the evenings and on weekends to try to keep on top of their work. This isn’t approved overtime – they’re working unpaid hours.

    My manager has actually offered me overtime. I won’t work outside my core hours without being compensated, but I feel terribly about my coworkers who have been. I don’t know if they’ve been offered overtime.

    I’m feeling conflicted – I feel so angry on their behalf that they’re having to work so hard to keep on top of work, and I feel like their managers should know – all of our department managers should know that what they’ve assigned to us is unrealistic and causing immense burnout. And I also don’t want to create animosity amongst my coworkers if I do paid overtime. It feels really unfair, and I don’t know if I should just accept the overtime and keep my mouth shut, or actually say something to my coworkers, or management… Can I please have some outside perspective on this?

    1. lurkyloo*

      You can’t control what others do or feel. I’m the same way. If you want to do OT without compensation of any sort, that’s up to you. I won’t do it.
      You take care of you and let them take care of them. :) If they ask, don’t lie, but you don’t have to offer it either. And you could support them in pushing back, if they want you to.

    2. Hazel*

      Lurkyloo is right, but if your manager is sympathetic and is paying OT, maybe mention to them that you appreciate the acknowledgment that this takes extra hours and you’re concerned that others aren’t getting OT? The manager might mention it to their peers or boss.

    3. upwardlibrarian*

      Do you know if your coworkers have actually asked for overtime, or are they just assuming the unpaid extra work is expected of them? Have they even told their managers that they’re overwhelmed? Unless you know them to be unreasonable people, or you think you’ll get backlash from your boss, I’d say share the info. It might encourage them to ask for the money or set better boundaries.

      But if they don’t get the same offer, that’s not your fault. It’s also not on you to fix the situation for everyone.

    4. AlsoAFed*

      It sounds like they’re choosing to work unpaid overtime (which they shouldn’t be!). But that’s not on you, that’s on them. You have correctly set a boundary that you won’t work overtime without being paid for it. Think of yourself as a good example.
      norto

    6. Ellis Bell*

      Why would this create animosity amongst your colleagues in a unionised workplace? Share the real information with them, or with the union. How else do people get paid equitably without people discussing pay? This a great way to back them up. Even just informally urging them to push to get paid OT is powerful. I’d you think it’s at all the kind of thing that would see you retaliated against, get your union to do it.

    7. Gatomon*

      Your coworkers shouldn’t be working unapproved overtime! If your employer finds out, they might face disciplinary action*. And they’re making the workload look more manageable than it actually is by clocking less hours than it actually takes. This is only going to compound the situation because management won’t see the effects of being understaffed. Why are they volunteering themselves to be taken advantage of??

      I would suggest they stop and make it clear that your overtime *is* approved. Maybe they have approval for x hours and they’re working x + y hours, or maybe they have no overtime approval, but whatever it is, they should adhere to it to protect themselves.

      As for telling management, I’d only consider doing so if they absolutely refused to stop working unapproved overtime and you are okay with the potential fallout of these employees getting into trouble and tracing it back to you. Otherwise I’d just let it be, because sooner or later it’ll come out anyway, and it won’t be worth getting wrapped into the drama. (I’m assuming you’re non-management here though.)

      *While they may insist they weren’t told to work unpaid, it still opens the company up to legal issues.

      1. Student*

        *While they may insist they weren’t told to work unpaid, it still opens the company up to legal issues.

        At one job I worked, for this very reason, we were told we’d be fired for working off the clock.

    8. Observer*

      I also don’t want to create animosity amongst my coworkers if I do paid overtime.

      If your coworkers are halfway decent people, there should be no animosity to you.

      actually say something to my coworkers, or management

      You are in a unionized workplace, and *this* is what unions were made for. Suggest to your coworkers that they need to talk to the union about the *illegal* unpaid overtime they are being forced to do.

      If you have decent relationships with management, aside from your boss who is doing the right thing here, you should mention that “we could get into legal trouble over the unpaid over-time in those departments.”

    9. Starbuck*

      I think setting the tone and giving a simple reality check is all you can do. Stuff like, “Oh wow, I definitely wouldn’t feel comfortable working unpaid overtime, did someone ask you to do that?” or stuff like “yeah I’m only working these hours because they’re paying overtime, your manager should make sure you get paid too.” Or whatever sounds natural and not condescending or whatever in your own voice.

    10. Quinalla*

      I am glad you aren’t working overtime without pay, don’t feel bad about accepting what is legally and morally correct! And you don’t need to go on a crusade, but you don’t need to keep quiet about it either. If your manager is sympathetic, mention that you think others are working unpaid overtime and you are concerned they don’t understand the legal trouble that could get the company in. If you don’t think your manager will do anything further, talk to folks who you think are working unpaid overtime or take it to your union.

  4. Anon for this one*

    Any advice about dealing with feedback that feels like it’s about a fundamental element of your personality?

    I went for a promotion, which I didn’t get and the main point of feedback is that I tend to be a bit fixed in my ideas. I mentioned it to my husband who said “no comment” (as in — “yes, that sounds exactly like you”). I’ve thought about it and it’s almost certainly true of my outlook on life outside of work as well as at work. In a work context, I would characterise it as having an understanding of our organisational objectives and taking the course of action that I think best promotes them. (I work in the public sector, so this is about choosing the outcome that I view as being in the public interest.)

    Since getting the feedback, I’ve been trying to make a point of demonstrating where I am open to different possible outcomes. But I’m wondering if that’s going to be enough or if I will have to accept that I can’t get promoted in my current role because of this perception about me/reality.

    1. bunniferous*

      This sounds like it is a very important bit of feedback for you not just workwise but in life.
      Since your husband said what he said -this sounds like it is important enough for you to actually work on. Even in therapy or life coaching if need be. Openness to new ideas is an important value to have in life even if you wind up choosing your original outlook.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Did they offer anything beyond “fixed in your ideas”? i.e. an example where you thought you were serving public interest by doing X, but the data suggested that you really should have done Y instead? Like, are you wrong or are there just a variety of options to choose from and you choose the one that makes the most sense to you?

      Sometimes organizational objectives can come in conflict with one another, so while you might think X is the best option in the public’s interest, there may be a competing priority that your leadership team might think is important above and beyond what the public interest is. Do they communicate that sort of thing and are you open to it when they do?

      ” I’ve been trying to make a point of demonstrating where I am open to different possible outcomes.”

      Are there places where you should be open but you’re not? You said that you’re demonstrating where you’re open to other possibilities, but I wonder if it’s less about being open in specific instances vs open to other ideas in general. If I’m open to other ideas about what we should do about X, but it’s minor in the grand scheme of what we’re doing, that’s probably not going to come across as me being open.

    3. Diatryma*

      I have also gotten feedback about rigidity and black-and-white thinking, and I’m trying to demonstrate that I do have flexibility and can handle things not going my way.

      What I try to do is not comment on things I disagree with once the decision has been made. Supervisor decides, and I think it’s not going to work– they know I think that, since I told them, and that’s okay. Once the decision is made, the time to complain about it is done.

      Sometimes, flexibility is more than saying there can be more than one acceptable outcome and asking someone else for input. Accepting a decision from higher up with grace is also flexibility.

      1. Diatryma*

        Also: right now, you see this feedback as you being flexible enough and supervisors not realizing this. Can you instead reframe it that the supervisors accurately assessed your flexibility and say you need more? Don’t try to prove that you’re already being flexible– be more flexible than you have been.

      2. Anon for this one*

        That’s a great perspective, but not related to my current feedback. Once a decision has been taken on something related to my core work, I respect it and implement it. This is more that I might be too rigid in the way I present things to senior decision makers.

        (HR decisions, I maybe a bit less deferential, but commenting on that is normal in my workplace. The person who got the promotion I went for is even more vocal when they disagree with HR-type decisions.)

        1. Ellis Bell*

          Yeah, I work in the public sector too and I might be a teeny tiny bit put off by anyone who came across as “choosing the outcome that I view as being in the public interest”. If I got this feedback, I would probably really lean into being vocally excited about learning more about how to reach consensus and collaboration after utilising others’ viewpoints. I’d ask for mentors, potential training opportunities, development goals to be all set with this in mind. You probably need this in your development plan if your husband agrees with the feedback and it also subverts the characterisation of your being set in your ways. I don’t know what your specialism is, but don’t let them pigeonhole you as being “fixed in their ideas, but great at llama wrangling” when you want to be a llama wrangling manager or trainer.

      3. Csethiro Ceredin*

        This is a really good way of thinking about it, which I hadn’t considered before. Looking back on colleagues I thought of as unhelpfully rigid, this was a big part of it. If we have a new website, resisting using it and reiterating complaints about it isn’t helping anyone because it’s here now and we are using it.

        The other way this manifested is needing more than usual levels of support for any minor decision that wasn’t black or white. It’s hard feedback to give, because you WANT people to ask questions or check their thinking if they need to, but for most roles I would have been reluctant to promote someone who needed this far more than others.

    4. I like bananas*

      After a few months of being more open, I would go back to whomever gave you feedback and ask if they see a difference. But if you work in government, you might want to reflect if you actually want a promotion. Lots of government work involves political compromise that may or may not actually be in support of the Department mission. For example, if you are in the USA, think of the EPA. With the change on the presidency lots of policies about climate change are about to change. If you worked there – could you adapt or are you fixed on what is good for your constituents and the Dept mission?

      1. Anon for this one*

        I’m not in the US and my employer is not political — some of the things we do eventually need government sign off, but the day-to-day, not so much. I would need to go up about 3-4 levels from where I am not to have political interference as a concern.

    5. upwardlibrarian*

      Can you ask for specific examples at work? If you want to fix the problem, you’re going to need to understand exactly what’s going wrong. Getting examples might also help you understand if this is something you can change.

      If they don’t give you any, I’d suggest reflecting on the times you’ve disagreed with decisions made by your management and colleagues. How did you handle those disagreements? Did you ask for the other person’s point of view and try to come up with a solution that addresses their concerns?

      And then ask yourself how bothered you are by the decisions being made by management – if you can live with them or if you truly think they’re bad for the organization/public in a major way. If it’s the latter, you’re probably better off looking for a workplace that better aligns with your perspective.

      1. Anon for this one*

        There have been specific examples, but it’s hard to share without losing anonymity.

        Imagine that I work in a role where I have to make recommendations about whether a teapot manufacturer is allowed to sell its teapots in a certain market. The rigidity is in how I approach the teapot manufacturer and how much I think they should be allowed to cut corners before they aren’t allowed to sell their teapots any more.

        I am making recommendations to more senior people and if they disagree with my assessment about the degree of corner cutting and whether that should matter, they have the final say, not me. And there is always an opportunity for them to ask me for more information or for us to have a discussion before any decision is taken. Often the decision has to go before a committee and I present my views there and answer questions from the committee. But the feedback is that how I present my views to those senior people is perceived as too rigid.

        In the case of the promotion, it was about one of the examples I gave in the interview. One of the interviewers thought I had been too hard on the teapot company — they didn’t have all the facts because it was only a five minute section of the interview, so I’d had to edit out some details. When the interviewer asked some follow-up questions, I explained why I thought the customers for this type of teapot were particularly vulnerable and therefore deserved additional protection. In the example I gave, everyone at the time had been 100% in agreement that the teapot manufacturer should be prevented from selling these teapots, but the interviewer thought I was too rigid.

        There are other examples of where I have gone to those committees to try and get a concession that the teapot manufacturer wants, only to be blocked by Legal or someone else.. But those examples didn’t come up in this interview.

        1. The Magician's Auntie*

          Well, this description makes me feel sympathetic to the way you work. It does sound here as if you’re being slightly unfairly characterised. But…then I remember that your husband said, “No comment”, and I wonder why he said that. IS there some pattern in the way you’re thinking that could be holding you back?
          Unless your husband is being a bit unfair too, which of course could happen. Sometimes, people who have a strong sense of justice, and the confidence to express that, ARE unfairly characterised.

          But when your husband said that, what did you think? (Do you think he has a point or do you think he’s got this wrong?)

        2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          With this further info, it sounds to me more like this one person from the interview panel is the barrier. They think you are being too mean to the poor company just trying to make a profit by breaking all the rules. So unfair! If your role is to make that call, then you’ll always have moments where you are unpopular with the folks who want to cut corners. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong.

          Since you sound successful in your role otherwise, you may have a perception problem with this specific person. Which, yeah, may mean you can’t get a promotion if they have the ability to block you.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          Oh… ignore my previous comment. In that case it could be more interview skills (either theirs or yours) than an actual work or development goal. Maybe focus on presenting brief, but equal sides of an argument like reporting on a court case. They can only see what you show them, but maybe they didn’t give you long enough or ask enough follow ups.

        4. cmdrspacebabe*

          Ooh, the nature of the example kinda shifts my perception from my initial reply downthread. I’m curious what the interviewer’s role is – hiring manager, or just a panel member? I wonder if it’s an indication that they’re anticipating a change in resourcing/capacity/standards in the future, and buddy is anticipating corner-cutting that he doesn’t want to get too much pushback on.

          Or maybe he just doesn’t want to have to deal with someone who’ll hold him accountable for quality the way he thinks you might. >__>

    6. WellRed*

      Would the promotion have had people reporting to and you haven’t had that before? Because it’s definitely important in that context. I do think you could go back and ask for examples.

      1. Anon for this one*

        I’m already a people manager and get extremely good feedback on my people management skills.

    7. cmdrspacebabe*

      In a public service context, I wonder if this means your organization is working on adapting to the times, and they don’t see that you’re picking it up in a way they think will move them forward. At least in my own sectors, things have shifted a lot in recent years – lower budgets, less capacity, and more expectations, which need to be addressed with very different approaches than the ones we’ve used historically – I’ve noticed an increase in willingness to try new strategies and technologies, at least in my own sector.

      I wonder if it’s worth looking a bit more at not only your organization’s current objectives, but possible upcoming future ones – particularly if you’re in a government that has/will soon go through an election likely to change the administration in power (true in a few countries right now, I’m not just talking about the U.S. election lol). If they’re anticipating needing to make big changes based on a different party being in power, and you have a reputation of favouring traditional approaches/priorities, that could be a factor they’re picking up on – and an impression that might take time to change. Really depends on the area you’re in, but maybe you could look for trainings/project opportunities/working groups/etc. based in change management and modernization, and try and emphasize them in your work?

    8. Evergreen*

      I had a similar situation, where I felt like my personality was being judged as ‘not optimistic enough’ for a promotion. At the time, it felt heavily gendered, especially when my bumbling male coworker got promoted ahead of me. Without knowing the details, I wonder is there a gender element in your situation too?

      In my case, it was a blessing in disguise because it meant I had a model for what personality traits did get promoted at that org – and now, looking back, I can see how important projecting optimism is in a workplace. I also decided to leave after I got the promotion, the gender element was too much toxicity for me anyway.

      Which is to say, if you want to work on how you project in the workplace I think you absolutely can, but whether it would be preferable to look for another job is up to you.

    1. TechWriterToo*

      Very few tech writers have degrees directly adjacent to the job. There are a few English majors, but it tends to be a job people fall into.

      Relevant prrp/experience is going to depend on the type of technical writer. In the best case scenario you will have the basic education/experience of your target audience, but that can be difficult to find in some cases. For example, I moved from working as a software engineer/developer to writing database/API/developer tool documentation. I was the target audience for my work so I knew what people needed to know and I could push back on design choices that didn’t make sense (in many cases, the tech writer serves as the user experience person too).

      There are some environments where tech writers get to interview subject matter experts and rely solely on their expertise, but they tend to be mainly at (some) large companies and those environments make the tech writer very dependent on others to do anything. If you look for those environments, a journalism or similar background is helpful as interviewing is a key skill.

      So think about the type of tech writing you want to do, the type of company you want to work at, how much agency you want over your work, and then think about what users of the products and services of those orgs typically involve.

      Good luck!

      1. Filosofickle*

        Agree with all this. Most people just kind of end up here and build experience as they go. What I’d add is that “technical writing” is a spectrum, which might help you place yourself from where you are starting. I’m more or less describing the same thing as above from a different perspective.

        One end, the most technical (like documentation), basically has to be written by someone with an engineering/technical background for a similar engineering/technical audience. Like TechWriter Too described, you start on the technical side and back your way into the writing.

        The other end leans towards marketing (case studies, data sheets, white papers), making pieces that are less deep — maybe for IT leaders, investors, or software buyers who need to understand the tech at a higher level and don’t need all the details. On this end, you might start as something like a general content writer or product manager then build up your tech knowledge by working in that environment. This is me — I happen to write well, be good with tech, and understand engineers. (FWIW I didn’t even start as a writer. I was initially a visual designer working for software companies and picked up technology, UX, and writing/comms on the job.) As noted above, I’m reliant on experts to get the details right and take a journalistic approach. They give me the guts, and I turn it into something a less technical person can understand. Being less technical is actually an advantage here.

    2. another fed*

      I know some journalists, especially if they did a hybrid degree like agrijournalism or came from engineering where tech writing is a sophomore level writing requirement. Many people end up in such jobs by a sideways from many paths, but you could look at any community college that feeds an undergrad engineering program to look for a tech writing class, and in this day and age, likely to be online.

    3. audra*

      In contrast to some of the other replies, I have an English degree and a cert in a popular content management system. I don’t have any real background in the field I am writing about, but I figure it out through demos, SME interviews, and playing around in the dev environment myself. Most of my experience is in something semi-related (proofreading, editing, publishing).

    4. Jamjari*

      The most important criteria is curiosity and the ability to translate what you learn into clear information your target audience understands. Usually you need a post-secondary degree of some kind or related experience – I’m one of two people I’ve know who actually have a diploma in it, so it clearly wasn’t necessary. I’ve worked on very technical hardware and software (including API documentation) with that, an English degree, and curiosity.

    5. Procedure Publisher*

      When I did a BS in Technical Communication, I took a class on content management systems that resulted in me getting my first job. If you want a degree specifically for tech writing, I highly recommend any that requires you to take scientific or technical courses to get your major.

      If you want to do API tech writing, Tom Johnson has a free course on his blog that I have heard rave reviews from other tech writers. (A lot of fully jobs want you to know API tech writing.)

      The Society for Technical Communicators has a certification that you can get, and I’ve seen job postings that want that certification.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Thank you to LW who send in updates and Alison for contacting LWs to encourage them to send in updates. I appreciate all of them, including the ones where the best path forward was “I found a new job.”

  7. upwardlibrarian*

    Public library folks, I need interview wardrobe help!

    For managerial roles in suburban or urban libraries, do I need a blazer, or is a cardigan appropriate? I’m looking at mostly assistant branch manager or librarian II positions.

    1. Lissa Landon*

      Often, library interviews can be fairly casual, but if you’re not sure about this particular library, and you’re applying for a role in management, I’d suggest a jacket of some sort. That said, I would guess that over 80% of the time, a cardigan would be absolutely fine for a middle management interview in a public library system. I think I wore a structured sweater/jacket the last time I interviewed for (and got) a job.

    2. goddessoftransitory*

      It never hurts to dress upscale for the interview. Not like, a ballgown, obviously, but even if the place is more casual day to day it shows you are taking the job interview process seriously.

    3. Dragonwriter*

      Even for a library, I would suggest going for a blazer for an interview, especially in a management role. The cardigan is a library classic for a reason, but a little to day to day for an interview.

    4. another fed*

      I would suggest at least what I call the dresser suit jacket. I’m thinking the non-button jacket that you can get at Christopher & Banks or Talbots. Also works well for presentations to your Board, funders, and any county/city/state government that funds or governs you. I tend to wear them over A-line dresses that are more forgiving than sheaths and slacks, and definitely better than a full suit. For those dresses, I own several from Anne Klein sold by Macy’s, they tend to hit me just below the knee.

    5. Boggle*

      I really like those sweaters that look like jackets since they are more tailored, but also very comfortable.

    6. Bloopbloop*

      I think for a leadership role, a blazer and dress pants are the way to go. Managers often need to present more formally than other Library staff.

  8. LinkedIn Anonymous*

    What does it mean when somebody you’ve never worked with or met requests to connect on LinkedIn? I don’t typically accept these requests, but we looked at this person’s profile a few times in hiring. She may have even gone through a first round interview. I’ve since left that job and she requested to connect but hasn’t said anything to me. Why do people ask to connect to people they don’t k ow and then not say anything? If I reach out to see what’s up, what can I say?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I wouldn’t reach out. She’s the one who wants the connection, so she can reach out.

      It reminds me of people who just add any and all people who request connection on Facebook. Building a huge network of people in hopes something good might come of it, but really something good will only happen if you know and connect meaningfully with people, which is unlikely when you’re spamming follow request everywhere.

    2. I like bananas*

      There are “open connectors” on LinkedIn. I’m one of them with hundreds of connections. I give frequent public speeches and “meet” lots of folks that way. Most never reach out. But on a rare occasion they do. Sometimes it’s an interchange of value for both parties and that’s why I accept random invites. I occasionally get a random request for a job or a sales pitch that has nothing to do with my industry. I immediately delete those without guilt or a second thought.

    3. Redaktorin*

      It seems like she’s just more casual about LinkedIn connections than you are? A lot of people friend randoms in the same industry just because it pays to know the people who may be posting jobs you could apply to, it’s a way to get more pertinent-to-you posts in your feed, etc.

    4. Seashell*

      Maybe she got the version of LinkedIn where she can see who looked at her profile and made the request because you looked? Maybe LinkedIn sent an e-mail suggesting that she connect with you and she blindly follows these suggestions?

    5. learnedthehardway*

      It could be that the person is just trying to build their network – it makes sense to build your network within your industry or functional area. You don’t have to reach out or respond, if you do choose to accept the connection – if the person has something specific to ask you, they’ll message.

      I have an enormous network because of the work I do – recruitment. I am constantly reaching out to people as part of my work. I get random requests to connect all the time, and if it looks like I would ever possibly want to speak with the person, I accept. I’m a LION – ie. “LinkedIn Open Networker”, which means I am very willing to connect with people.

      The only connection requests I don’t accept are ones that are obviously trying to sell me something I have no interest in, ones that are clearly just looking for ways to emigrate from their current country (I have no ability generally to recruit people unless they are already in Canada and legal to work here), or obvious scammers.

    6. Lissa Landon*

      I accept LinkedIn requests if there is some work-related reason they may want to contact me (other than to sell me a library product that is not under my purview). But I don’t use LinkedIn for anything other than to give people a way to contact me if they don’t have my email or phone number or to contact someone for whom I don’t have other contact information (and only for work-related things)

    7. RagingADHD*

      If you have hiring authority in your industry, and she previously was called in for an interview, she may want to keep connected with you at your new job in case you post anything about job openings.

    8. BigLawEx*

      I know some people who just *do* this. It’s like people with 5000 FB friends. They seem to (mis)believe if they’re connected to a bunch of people, when they’re job searching, it’ll look like they’re connected. I think it’s kind of odd, but to paraphrase Danny Lavery would say…the world is a rich tapestry….

      I also ignore them all. But I kind of hate SM, so I’m unusual.

  9. Tradd*

    I’d appreciate any advice from those who work with an overseas team. I’m a customs broker in the US. Part of the ownership (small freight forwarder) is from Asia (US citizen though, been here for decades). We have our own office in that Asian country with staff who are both support (get documents from overseas agents, interface with overseas agents, etc.) and as an extension of our import team (forward documents to my customs brokerage department, act as customer service with some US customers). Also help office manager with accounting stuff. English is second official language for their country, so written communication is fairly decent. One or two who speak better English will sometimes call us in the US and act as spokesperson when on Teams calls with the US. *Note: they don’t do any customs stuff as CBPO requires that to be done in the US.* They were quite good until about 6 months ago, then they collectively fell off the wagon. It’s almost like there was something in the water. *Everyone* in my US office is having issues with them.

    Example: we tell them that the shipment files in the system have to be opened a specific way. Explicit directions are given, complete with screen shots. They do something totally different. When asked why, they can’t answer. They’re supposed to be putting shipment documents in the system when they get them. They don’t. They don’t mark milestones in the system that indicate we have docs when you look at the daily report. They don’t name the document uploads properly so you have to open multiple file attachments to find the correct one. This is a massive problem and part of the reason we can’t even think about going paperless for the customs brokerage dept right now. When they enter a US company in the software, they format the address the overseas way, not the US way. Why we have to keep reminding them to format addresses the US way, I have no idea. Some of the overseas staff have been with the company for years.

    Even the owners/executives who are from the same country as our overseas office and are native speakers of the same language have issues getting through to the overseas office staff that they need to do better. I have to spend so much time documenting what they’re doing wrong (emails, screen shots) and send them on. I am at my wits’ end!

    1. A.P.*

      Did anyone recently quit the office overseas? Perhaps there was one person holding everything together and making sure all the work was being done properly. And when they left, everything went kablooey.

      1. Tradd*

        That’s what I thought at first, but nope. All the same staff in the overseas office. The office manager is having massive issues with the folks who she works with on accounting issues, so totally separate from the people I work with handling documents and shipping issues.

          1. Tradd*

            I’ve asked multiple times. I’m always told all staff is the same and no one has left. The people I always deal with are the same.

      2. LuckySophia*

        Seconding A.P.’s idea that the One Competent Person may have vanished. I had this happen (in reverse) some years ago. The team in India (to whom Corporate had outsourced web site updates) could not, would not, follow directions/observe schedules/quality-check their work — despite weekly reminders/follow-up emails FOR TWO YEARS. Suddenly, a new primary contact person arrived on scene. And miraculously, things started going according to plan.

        1. Tradd*

          I’ve asked multiple times. I’m always told all staff is the same and no one has left. The people I always deal with are the same.

    2. Observer*

      Even the owners/executives who are from the same country as our overseas office and are native speakers of the same language have issues getting through to the overseas office staff that they need to do better.

      SOMETHING has to have happened there.

      My first thought is that a political or big natural event in that country has thrown everyone and everything off kilter. There has been a fair amount of stuff going on in many countries in that part of the world.

      My second thought is forensic. Is your cybersecurity really up to par? Do you have good and broad logging, so you see what’s going on with all your systems and on the Asian site?

      1. Tradd*

        Yes, cybersecurity is good. They’re on the same system we are, which is hosted locally in our head US office (where I am). I can tell you nothing major politically is going on in that country. I won’t name it for obvious reasons, but I keep up with international news. I can tell you for sure it’s not China!

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, I wasn’t thinking China. But Pakistan, Taiwan and Japan have had a fair number of both political (especially Pakistan) and natural major events that have had some real repercussions. And those are just the ones I checked for.

          They’re on the same system we are, which is hosted locally in our head US office (where I am).

          I would honestly suggest a good look at all of the logging, as well as any security footage you have of their offices.

            1. Observer*

              I hear. But really, do look at what’s been going on. There are a lot of things that happen that don’t hit the news in the West but which are literally world shattering for people.

              I’m not going to list any other examples, because that’s not the point. My point just is that there are a lot of major events that you would never hear of unless you are following the news from that country – and even then maybe not, depending on the press in that country. And it’s possible that the owners are more tapped into this than you are and are aware of whatever it is, but haven’t connected the dots.

              Now, I sure could be wrong about that. But if I checked it out and I turnout to be wrong, I would *definitely* be looking at logs and security camera footage.

        1. Deck cat*

          Okay so what are their thoughts, especially since they have familiarity with that regional area? The last few times they’ve been there on a site visit, has anything seemed off, vibe-wise?

          If the response is, “all the staff haven’t changed, they said everything is fine, no need to peek behind the curtain!” then like, I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe the overseas team were all replaced by psyops agents to drive you and your team crazy for some reason. Maybe you’ve all been actually communicating with some other team entirely and somehow no one has noticed until know. IDK.

    4. Kathenus*

      Are you documenting the issues, sending back to them, and they have to re-do it correctly? If not, can that be the plan? If you or someone else fixes what they do wrong, they’ll have no incentive to change (back) to doing it the way they are supposed to. If you can just send everything done wrong back to be re-done, it might help if they have to do extra work to correct it.

      1. JazzyB*

        In my experience the offshore companies are to blame in two ways.
        One, they operate in a climate of fear that discourages initiative & critical thinking. This leads to staff being unable to admit to any failings, whether personal or at project level e.g., staff turnover.
        Two, they also send tea stirrers where tea makers are requested so the full spectrum of skills is lacking but the company still bags their commission.
        There’s a minority that are exceptional workers but there were more than a few that consistently failed to follow simple, documented instructions. The latter I wouldn’t trust to hit the ground if they fell over.

    5. Alternative Person*

      Can you schedule individual meetings with the staff and try to track down the root cause? Or have a real serious business training session with them?

      The whole thing is just bizarre if staff who were previously doing things correctly suddenly aren’t. The two thoughts I have is someone high up on their side is lying about something or there’s been some legal changes in that country that haven’t been communicated to you.

      Hope you can get this resolved soon.

    6. TechWorker*

      What is their management structure? Do they report into US managers or do they have some levels of authority over there? If the latter presumably step 1 is to talk to those managers, explain what you’re seeing & ask what’s going on. If you are not in a senior enough role to do that yourself, escalate up your own mgmt chain & get them to do it.

    7. Intermittent Introvert*

      Is it possible that one key person has had a personal life event (death of a close member, difficult medical diagnosis, divorce, etc.)? It won’t be on the news but will affect their quality of work. Also, look for any interpersonal things. Like, was there a couple in the group that just broke up with each other? It could affect their work culture without being super obvious.

  10. Upside down Question Mark*

    AAM makes me reflect a lot. I’m wondering what I should have done in a creepy situation? Back as an 18 year old at uni, I took an “social entrepreneurship” class (which now I’m my 30s with an MBA seems sketchy?) Anyway, the “guest professor” spent an entire class reviewing the need to fully vet anyone you invest with because he accepted everyone’s word that his wife was a lovely person. Apparently she received a mental health diagnosis at some point he didn’t like, and he felt deceived by all around him and got divorced. He referred to his story in examples and assignments.
    Looking back, I feel like I should have reported this weird guy somehow, but we were at a fundamentalist Christian school and taught God chose all of our teachers (another problem). But what would have been a script I could have used?

    I ask because a young relative still in that org will be attending this school and I want her to be more prepared than I was that sometimes people are creeps.

    1. I think I'm the only one in the office here*

      You couldn’t have fixed this and your young relative cannot fix this. It’s tempting to believe that one person standing up in class can say “Professor, respectfully, get over it”. But someone who makes everything about his grievances against his ex-wife is not going to be stopped by one of his students.

      What you can do: talk to your relative about some people being creeps! And how to mentally reframe things. Maybe some scenario work. Like:

      You: Relative, here’s a scenario. You’re in a class. It’s too late to drop it. Your professor keeps talking weirdly about his ex-wife and stigmatizes mental health problems and blames everyone for his divorce other than himself, the one who instigated the divorce. What would you think first do in that situation? Remember, you need this grade for your GPA and you can’t drop the class, but you need to keep yourself sane, too.

      1. Upside down Question Mark*

        absolutely excellent suggestion! I’ve been coming at it from a place of post therapy and processing and what she needs are the basic skills I didn’t have. thank you so much!

        1. I think I'm the only one in the office here*

          Skill building is also really helpful because she’s not going to have the exact same experience you did and the same professors, but there will be a time in her life where she experiences the same sort of helplessness to Someone Ranting About Their Ex In An Inappropriate Location For It.

        2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

          I agree about the basic skills part. Also, and I cannot emphasize this enough, helping young people understand what types of behaviours are in the spectrum of normal and what are not, is so helpful.

          Your version of, “Let me tell you about this one situation that happened to me. It was definitely weird and uncomfortable. I probably wasn’t the only person in the room who thought it was weird either, but I don’t think it would have been worth the time and energy within that environment to make a big deal about it. You can make that kind of decision for yourself, but know that it’s okay to let your gut be a guide” would probably be very useful for your relative.

    2. Seashell*

      In that environment, “The speaker talked positively about his divorce” might hold more water than “This was an inappropriate topic for discussion, and his views on mental illness are repugnant”, even if the latter is true.

    3. Observer*

      I feel like I should have reported this weird guy somehow

      I don’t think there is anything to report per se. Now, if a school has a way to provide general feedback, then sure, this something to give feedback on because it is *terrible* teaching, and he’s a major league jerk. He also sounds like a first class idiot as well as having a poor understanding of what is generally appropriate to share with your students.

      I ask because a young relative still in that org will be attending this school and I want her to be more prepared than I was that sometimes people are creeps.

      That’s a different issue. And I would have a chat with her and say just that “Sometimes people are all types of weird and creepy. They say inappropriate things. Even teachers. So, if someone says something that you find gross or inappropriate, don’t assume that it’s a you problem.” But also, not every weird, creepy, or inappropriate thing is a big deal. So this guy is going on about his ex-wife? That’s inappropriate, but ok, you won’t have to deal with him once class is done. He starts hitting on students or making suggestive comments? NO. *That* is something that needs to be reported to the upper administration and stopped IMMEDIATELY.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it is a reasonably big deal because of the group of people he is speaking to. They are reasonably young and likely to be coming from sheltered backgrounds and hearing that “you should vet everybody because somebody could turn out to have a mental illness and you wouldn’t want to end up married to somebody who did” could do real harm to somebody struggling with mental health issues, for instance by making them unwilling to get help in case it meant people found out and shunned them. It could also cause people to believe him and behave inappropriately, doing things like the employee we read about here who did a background check on his manager and told her, thinking that this is the sort of thing responsible adults do.

        I agree that reporting probably isn’t going to do much as it isn’t at the level that the university would have to do something. I think the best thing to do is to ensure the young relative knows to question what lecturers say. Young people can hero-worship lecturers and trust them even on stuff unrelated to their expertise and this is likely to be particularly true for a young person raised in a strict religion.

        1. Observer*

          Yes, it’s a big deal especially because of who he is talking to, which is why it’s a *really* good idea for @Upside Down to talk to their relative. As well, if there is some way to give feedback, that should happen too and a *good* administration should take the stuff *really* seriously.

          But given the circumstances, I doubt that the school would worry too much about this. That’s not good, but it’s the reality. But from the POV of the young relative, what is *really important* is that she KNOWS that this guy is spouting garbage and that he’s telling on himself more than anything else. Whereas something like hitting on someone or suggestive comments is at a whole different level.

          1. Upside down Question Mark*

            yes, there was a lot of deconstruction involved after the programming that women should leave the uni as soon as they get married to make space for men who will provide for their families, so it was one more awful thing to be taught about self worth

            1. Observer*

              , there was a lot of deconstruction involved after the programming that women should leave the uni as soon as they get married to m

              Oh, gross!

              What I think I would tell her is to ignore anything this guy has to say. He’s wrong on so many levels and in so many ways that’s just not worth even trying to pick out the nuggets.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      I would tell her to trust her instincts, and maybe share this anecdote with her about you trusting your instincts. Tell her you wish someone had told you it was okay to listen to yourself. Back then he pinged your radar as creepy (accurately, probably) and I also think your instincts about potentially reporting him going nowhere was also on point (God chose the teachers, huh? Would love to attend a safeguarding meeting at this place; what other tasks are they assigning to God for a quick turn around?)

      1. Upside down Question Mark*

        the whole system is awful. no background checks at all and tons of nepotism. thank you for these ideas!

        1. Ellis Bell*

          I know some people dislike Gift of Fear, but I think it’s an essential book on instincts for young women.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I spent a lot of time in a fundamentalist junior high school playing dumb and asking teachers with bizarre axes to grind to explain stuff like what textual evidence from the Bible supported their statements, or following their logic ad absurdum and asking if they really meant to assert [whatever the absurd conclusion was]. But I was mainly doing it because I wanted to get held back in class so I wouldn’t have to go to PE and get hit in the face with dodgeballs.

      The administration was 100 percent on the side of the teachers, so complaining would do absolutely no good. I don’t think my persistence made the teachers reconsider their own opinions, but it sure did make them tired.

      The main thing you can encourage your young relative to do is think things through for herself and understand that human beings are fallible and often regurgitate their emotional upsets onto others.

    6. Green Goose*

      Oh man, I remember a few weirdo professors saying questionable things back when I started college. I had an business econ professor that mainly just told stories of women he encountered in the working world that didn’t take his amazing advice and then their careers imploded.
      One time when he was telling yet another dumb business woman story he said “When I was working at my previous employer I met these two women (he paused) SMART women who…” and then launched into his story about how they ignored his great advice and of course failed because of it. I remember being offended that he had to mention that they were smart because it was just an assumption that all women were unintelligent. No one else said anything but I wish I had mentioned to our college the way he talked about women in that class.

    7. The gourmet cupcake*

      What is the cinnamon toast? I’m Christian, and this guy is awfully obsessed over his ex wife…
      I don’t have a ton of helpful advice. You might chat with little relative about it, maybe to set the record straight that a mental health diagnosis is about as betraying as a person who broke their leg accidentally

  11. Beth**

    Argh, I just got sent a request to say how many hours I’ve worked on a particular project for every month from March to November. Nobody told me when I started working on this that there would be a requirement to track hours. This will be used for billing an external party, so I need to be accurate. Our email system deletes everything more han 6 months old, so I can’t even look back on emails to figure out when I started working on this thing!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That is terrible of the team/project/account leads.

      A few other sources:
      *Call logs on your office or personal phone
      *Any calendar records (do those go back farther than email?)
      *Talk with your IT team, they may have an email archive you (as a regular user) can’t access

      1. Observer*

        Talk with your IT team, they may have an email archive you (as a regular user) can’t access

        I’d be willing to bet that this exists, because there are so many situations where you *have* to have those records.

    2. Upside down Question Mark*

      holy moly I would be so pissed. Could you follow up with the person who gave you the request to see if they have any ideas? if it were me, I would actually use AI to help me come up with an estimation because if you provide the right parameters, it could give you a fairly objective view which is helpful if you tend to undersell yourself or overestimate any aspects of one piece or another. a prompt I would use would be something like:

      “I am a llama groomer for x company (or vague company description), and now need help to generate an approximate amount of hours I’ve worked across time on a project. here are some facts, but I’m afraid I tend to underestimate how much work and time I usually spend on x, y, z so please help me come up with some possible curved percentages to add to my own evaluation if necessary:
      – project start date
      – number of days a week worked
      – subtract holidays and sick days
      – add any overtime hours
      – {go to email and check folders for numbers of emails sent and received related to project} I’ve sent and received this many emails
      – I’ve created x number of llama blankets, the average taking me this amount of times
      – I’ve had on average x number of x length meetings (you can filter search your meetings app for this)
      – I’ve traveled to x places (if you have Google and have timeline activated in maps you can actually see how many times you’ve been to certain places)
      -x other quantifiable aspects of your work

      —

      you will think of more as you go I am sure, but I am curious what other colleagues in your dept or network claim for hours as that might also help!

    3. Cabbagepants*

      I use my old to-do lists to remind myself of what I was spending my time on each week and then ballpark what fraction of my time was on the project in question.

  12. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    One theme that always comes up this time of the year = HOLIDAY OFFICE GATHERINGS.

    We see letters from people who are excluded and feel hurt (e.g. a long-time contract employee who is not a direct company employee, or a remote office with two or three people who could actually GET to the party if invited, or people who work a night shift, etc. etc.)

    The plan is simple =

    MAKE SURE EVERYBODY IS INCLUDED. If cost is a factor, it is far better to cut back per-person expenses … really … than to plan more extravagance that requires you leave some people out.

    WHY? The purpose of a holiday party is to allow your employees (and contractors) to unite,
    and bond with each other, and to build office morale.

    Excluding people does the opposite. So – if you’re in charge of your office holiday party – think of inclusiveness. This is supposed to be a unifying event – not a DIVISIVE one. And remember – above all – you can’t turn the clock back if you’ve caused the damage.

    1. allathian*

      Yes, this. And if you work in a 24/7 coverage environment, acknowledge those who can’t attend in some other way.

      If at all possible, ask for volunteers to work that shift, in most workplaces there are people who’d rather work than attend a work party.

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        But invite lists haven’t been finalized – or, if they have been, they can be reviewed and augmented.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I am confused. Are you saying some offices that have end of year parties have invite lists?And that there is some discussion of who is on or off the list? Unless there are contractors – in which case they might need to be excluded lest it seem like they’re being treated like employees – I’ve not encountered this in the wild. You are an employee (full or part time) – invited. Not an employee, not invited. Who else would there be?

          1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

            YES. That is what I’m saying. Invite lists. They do exist in some places. Some places I’ve been. And the holiday celebration becomes a divisive event.

            And even the contractor argument is often used to rationalize exclusions when it might be socially inappropriate = = it’s not unusual for a contract programmer to be on a staff for several years, as a functional member of a team.

            This general discussion arises almost annually in here.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Our admin was polling availability in August and invites went out in September. I think if you want a reminder like this to be effective, you need to start a lot earlier. Particularly for anything off-site, it’s been booked up for months.

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        So if someone started work after the invites went out in September — he/she can’t attend?

        WOW. That **is** weird. But what CAN and SHOULD be done is have allowances made for a few extras. And most off-site facilities can make room for an extra rear end, or two, or three.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      The contractor part can be legally difficult – if you treat a contractor too much like an employee, they can legally be considered an employee, and invitations to office parties can count. One of the tech companies, Amazon maybe, had to pay a significant settlement over that.

  13. AnonymousForThis*

    I started my job in spring of this year after my last job was going to be outsourced to a different country.

    At first, I was happy. But then I realize I do not feel fulfilled at my current job as much as I thought I was, and that I only took this job because I was about to get laid off. The pay is slightly lower, but not so much lower that it affects my finances and lifestyle. Also, I am bored and there is one part of my job I really hate doing but I will not mention what it is exactly; I just will not mince words about it. Plus, there is no opportunity for growth as I am the only internal employee working in my field here. Also, I realized I am worth more and want to be paid accordingly, though the pay cut is not a direct factor here. I mean in general.

    I have been applying for jobs for months now with some interviews in between, but no offer as of yet. Plus, as I am employed, I am also being very choosy about where I want to work next. It is not like I am unemployed and desperate for money. I know the job market is not the best right now so I am also being patient.

    What suggestions do you have to hang in there until I get an offer? Were any of you in the same or similar situation before? How did you go about it?

    1. Upside down Question Mark*

      yes several times and what gets you through while job searching are two key things: remembering the job market is particularly shitty right now and making sure your personal life is very very fulfilling to you. I can’t emphasize this enough. I have had such a fascinating career all over the world but the past three years have been by all standards very boring. However, I learned that the single best cure for boredom or burnout (where you can’t control the source of either of those, ie your present job) is not to dwell on the aspects of it you wish you could cut but instead add more to your personal life. Join a club, write a book, start hiking, do something so weird and absolutely out of character for yourself like standup or joining synchronized swimming, that your brain really begins to grow around preparing and living for those new doses of dopamine. basically increase novelty elsewhere and you’ll find you really dont mind your job!

      my boss (think of my job as something like accounting), just went to internationals for a really weird exotic sport. a colleague teaches painting classes with live nudes he organizes from his neighborhood, another keeps randomly wearing different wigs every time we see her. I hike, quilt, write, meet up with friends, video game, etc so I have so much to be excited about outside of work I really don’t dread work at all.

    2. Lurker*

      I’m in a similar boat so can offer sympathy and hope others have some advice! Also suggestions on how to stay strong and not jump at the first thing that comes along if it’s not better. I finally got an interview and knew the company required in office time but found out through the process that my team is spread around the country so I’d be doing a daily commute to sit on teams calls. I know I’m better off being bored in a flexible job but haven’t been able to bring myself to withdraw from the interview process yet.

    3. Green Goose*

      I’m in a bit of a similar situation, and I’m also trying to make the most of it. Is there anything that you can benefit from at your current job to make the time go by more smoothly? I am using some professional development money from my current job to pay for a course that is Wednesdays (during the workday) for about three months. I think the class will be both interesting, a good way to network, and it is lucky that I can take it since it’s during the workday.
      I also try to network as much as possible at work (not in a smarmy way, but I want to meet more people) so I sign up for things that will introduce me to people I don’t normally work with.
      I also try to enjoy any type of perk that I get at my current job and be grateful for it (it does not effort some days lol), like I have some flexibility on start and end times and I remind myself that not all work places do that. It can help in moments when the negatives outweigh the positives.

      Good luck on your search and stay picky!

    4. Polopoly*

      I was in a similar situation – not quite the same, but made a promise to myself that every time XYZ happened that really annoyed me, I would dedicate 15-30 min to looking for a job.

      In my case :
      Useless director who apparently could not retain anything I told him for more than 10 seconds. every 1:1 where I brought up a topic that I needed him to have followed up on (year or more sometimes !!!) Spend coffee break browsing job listings.

      Every meeting where nothing was decided yet again (what-if to death), apply to a job.

      etc…

      Find someone else to laugh / complain about this with.
      Team/Org bingo cards – every filled line, etc = treat of choice.
      Caring less overall in general.

      Good luck

    5. Another freelancer*

      I could have written this post! I think you have some great advice here that I will use, too. You are not alone.

      I think it helps so much to have something to look forward to after work. Maybe it’s talking to a friend, trying a new recipe, starting a new hobby. Just try something so your days don’t revolve around your job / job hunting.

  14. softcastle*

    Does anyone here have experience working for an entrepreneur/small business, and if so…are jobs like this just doomed to be somewhat toxic? I come from a large corporate background with a lot of structure, so some of the behaviors from our CEO/owner at this job just seem absolutely clownshoes crazy to me (but my other officemates are used to it).

    The final straw was an email from our boss on Tuesday evening letting us know that we suddenly have to work mandatory overtime every week until after New Years in order to help the warehouse pick/pack customer orders on time. In addition, we will have to work all 5 Saturdays too from 9am-6pm (any exceptions need her express permission). But don’t worry–to compensate this very large and last-minute ask, she’s stocking the fridge with free beer for “her special elves to enjoy”!

    I just can’t help but find this to be a wildly inappropriate ask when given zero notice, especially considering two other things:

    1. We as employees are all required to give no less than 1 month notice for all requested PTO days (otherwise she won’t approve it, unless it’s an emergency)
    2. She never shows up to the office herself, and only works about 6 hours in-office a week (she is often on vacations and at various influencer events).

    Everyone in the office is grumbling about it but accepting things because it “is the way it is.” I’m already starting to look around for other jobs, because that’s really all that’s in my control, but…am I the a**hole for thinking this ask was kind of disrespectful?!

    1. UnCivilServant*

      You’re not wrong, this is exceedingly disrespectful.

      If she’s not there, who is running the day to day? Was there any indicator that this was supposed to be paid overtime? Why not hire some seasonal folks for the crunch time?

      1. softcastle*

        She did say the overtime would be paid (except for weeks where there is a paid holiday), and that we were lucky to be encouraged to take paid overtime when other bosses don’t like to do that. She didn’t feel like hiring part-time help because in past years she felt like they were “flaky.”

        She expects us to kind of manage ourselves, and will occasionally check in with a comment on Slack or send a “what’re you doing today” email. One of our employees is kind of her “right hand man”–we don’t technically report to him and his position doesn’t technically cover this work, but he takes care of all the day-to-day stuff for her, essentially.

        “HR” is a part-time consultant who is her personal friend, so any complaints just get directly fed back to our boss and she takes them very personally.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          OMG, leave yesterday! Besides everything else, HR being her friend says “everything about this sucks.”

          Also, whenever somebody tells you you are lucky to be doing [fill in incredibly imposing, ridiculous demand] it’s code for “I am very much aware this is outrageous”

    2. Tradd*

      Will you actually be paid for the OT? aka are you hourly or salaried? You are not the ahole. Boss is. I’ve dealt with some toxic shit, but this is bananapants!

      1. softcastle*

        We are definitely hourly thank goodness.

        I truly can’t believe some of the stuff that goes on here–I tried to stick it out for a full year so as not to seem like a job hopper, but my goodness, I think I’m just going to start looking for something new ASAP.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Lord, hop like you are about to get the high score in Frogger. There’s “never holding a job longer than a month” and then there is this, which is “fleeing a gas station run by an arsonist.”

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      My last job was with a very small company (<16 people). A few highlights:

      -The boss (who was also the owner) would get physically angry and pound his fists on the table during meetings or shove things in the warehouse into the wall.
      -The boss (who was married) was sleeping with one of my coworkers (also married) the entire time I was working there.
      -The boss was an alcoholic who sometimes would sit in his office and drink an entire bottle of booze throughout the day. (One evening he drove home after we had all left for the day and crashed his car into something. We never knew what because he couldn't remember. He could have killed somebody.)
      -The boss would get drunk in the evening and begin sending us angry rants via text that went on until long after midnight.
      -The boss emphasized that this company "was just like family" meaning that we should have absolutely no boundaries whatsoever.
      -I was expected to do a lot of work on my own time during lunch and weekends without compensation (including comp time) because I was salaried and after all, "we're just like family".
      -I was given one task, and then given another, and then another, continually throughout the day or week, and then got yelled at for never getting anything done.

      Because the boss was also the owner and there was no HR department, there was just no way to deal with any of this. I left and never looked back. I have worked for a lot of different sized companies and never had to deal with the level of bullshit here that I had to at any larger company. I will never work for a small company ever again.

      Your boss seems to be of a similar type. She is an absolute un-self-aware ass. Find a different job and get out ASAP because nothing about what you have described is normal.

      1. softcastle*

        WOWWWW. This is really, really similar to what I’m experiencing here too, except replace alcoholism and sleeping around with constant influencer photoshoots and last-minute vacations.

        Sigh.

      2. UnCivilServant*

        I don’t know what kind of family these sorts of bosses come from, but mine has boundaries. We help each other, but If you’re prone to taking advantage of this, you lose the privilege.

      3. softcastle*

        WOWWW. This seems very similar to what I’m experiencing here, except replacing alcoholism and sleeping around with constant influencer photoshoots and last-minute vacations.

        Sigh.

    4. CSRoadWarrior*

      Free beer? Like this will make anyone happy. It does not solve the problem.

      Also, special elves to enjoy? This is insulting. Also, you are not an elf working for Santa.

      Your boss is bananapants and this is really disrespectful as others have mentioned here.

    6. ursula*

      I don’t know about “doomed to be,” but from my time as an employment lawyer, I definitely came away with the impression that there is a higher percentage of wild shit happening in these small business entrepreneur contexts than at big companies with more professionalized HR systems/people. Obviously this isn’t universal. But personally I would do extra vetting before I took a job at one of these kinda of places, if I had the luxury of being picky. I think you’re right about the overall trend.

    7. WellRed*

      Ah, beware the small business owner who doesn’t actually want to roll up sleeves and do the work and that probably goes double for influencers. Free beer for elves? Is this is a sorority or a business? I wish you luck in getting out.

    8. goddessoftransitory*

      It’s exceedingly disrespectful, and stocking a fridge with beer is wildly questionable, to use the mildest possible term–if only because drinking on the job is a terrible idea for so many reasons, not the least of which is offending people who don’t drink for whatever reason, people in AA or other recovery programs suddenly confronted with alcohol onsite, and people driving home!

      Seriously, I don’t even work there and I am composing a very strong memo in my mind. This woman’s judgement is so skewed I might quit with nothing lined up (which is of course easy for me to say, but honestly.)

  15. OverTimeStudy*

    How to work with a boss who expects you to volunteer personal hours of your work hours?

    Context: I am NOT in the USA or Canada.

    So I was hired for a Sales job around three months ago. Being in sales, it’s a must that I have a great knowledge of the products I’m selling. And I get it. BUT.

    My boss expects me to study or read through the thick manuals outside of my work hours. Every week he’s been asking me how much hours I’ve put into it and occasionally quizzes me on those materials. If I can’t answer or answer it wrong, he’d say things like how I didn’t study enough. This is all unpaid, yes.

    I’ve tried to bring it up. For the month of November alone, I’d say I’ve accumulated about an extra 20 hours for these study sessions. I’ve asked my boss if there’s any way to just add the study time into my original work hours or to submit an overtime request so I can get paid for these unpaid hours.

    He looked at me puzzled. He said that it’s pretty much a given that I’d need to sacrifice some personal time if I want to survive in this position. Having a deep knowledge of our products so that we can obtain a sale literally equals to our KPI. Again I GET that there’s expectation of the kind of work. But I still feel I should be compensated properly.

    It is sort of a cultural norm where I live that overtimes aren’t paid and that we should volunteer our time for work. What can I say to my boss to make him understand this doesn’t seem right? Or am I being too entitled?

    1. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I’m in Canada so our cultural expectations are, as you say, different.

      But it’s odd to me that he is asking how many HOURS you spent rather than being concerned with whether you learned the information. It’s almost like this is about “what are you willing to do for us” rather than “what is your product knowledge.”

      I’m not sure that I have any advice, but this seems like a worrying mindset on your boss’s part.

      Maybe you can ask what he sees as a normal amount of time outside work hours for people to spend, and how this changes over time as they get over the initial learning hump. Depending on your relationship you could say you are finding this amount of time onerous and unsustainable long term given that it’s unpaid. And if you have any colleagues/peers you can ask about their experience that might help too.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m sure it varies and I know sales roles can be different than say, office work. But I really think that should be paid time (training). I mean it’s one thing to just spend an hour of your personal time familiarizing yourself with the product but 20 hours is ridiculous. But I’m in the US.

    3. Sunflower*

      How many years experience do you have? What are you doing at work all day during your paid hours? I ask because in the US, it’s not terribly uncommon for companies to hire recent grads in sales positions that require tons of unpaid trainings, low pay and they essentially get free labor out of them but the company pitches it as a great opportunity and promises them potential that doesn’t really exist- it’s kind of a bait and switch type situation.

      First thing I’d do is check reviews of the company to make sure you’re not in that type of position.

  16. Sister George Michael*

    Background: I’m neurodivergent. I’m a manager. I am BEC for my manager Rita (all names made up!). I do my job really well but my personality rubs her the wrong way (even though I’ve really tried to not get on her nerves). If I do something that irritates her, Rita will tell Addie (another manager) who will tell me, and then I’ll try to explain.

    Most recently, a senior person whom I don’t supervise (Terry) was dragging her heels on a project. A number of people were asking me what was happening with it. I created a chat with Terry and other managers tangentially involved in the project (like myself) just to say “hey, I know this deadline is coming up. If there’s anything I can do to plan or help, just let me know!” (Rita erroneously thought I had added all involved staff members to the chat.) Rita told Addie that I had stepped on Terry’s toes; Addie told me to reach out to Terry. I did, and said ‘hey, I hope I didn’t step on your toes’ and she said ‘nope, no problem!’ I sent that message back up the whisper network.

    So obviously, it’s irritating and stressful that I’m BEC for Rita and that there is this whisper network where things aren’t said directly. But, I am worried that I did step on Terry’s toes. Maybe Terry felt that she couldn’t be honest with me and said it was fine just because she felt she had to say that to a manager. But, while I realize people might not be honest with me because I’m a manager…is there a way to find out if I really offended Terry? I don’t know a way to ask that question to get a true answer, and I would really like to know so I will be more careful next time. (I don’t mean that I’m going to keep hounding Terry about this, I just mean that I want to be more careful moving forward because I want a happy team.)

    1. AlsoAFed*

      Have you tried going back to Rita to confirm what Addie is saying? You seem to be treating everything Addie says as if it is coming directly from Rita, but do you know that is true? (If it is, Rita is a terrible manager. She should be speaking to you directly.)

      1. Starbuck*

        Yeah every time I heard something from Addie, I’d go directly to Rita about it and say Addie passed on your concern about X. Will it make either of them like LW more? Honestly probably not, but it might make this extremely annoying behavior too awkward for them to continue.

        “Rita told Addie that I had stepped on Terry’s toes; Addie told me to reach out to Terry. I did”
        Did you talk with Rita before going to Terry? Is Addie your manager, or just A manager? Do you have to take Addie’s directions? Rita not telling you this stuff directly is super weird. Did Terry complain to Rita or did Rita just assume?

    2. Double A*

      I do think it was a little awkward to create a chat with Terry and a bunch of other managers. Obviously you’ve been brief with context here, but without more context that definitely reads as if Terry is “in trouble” and I wouldn’t think they’d feel comfortable responding openly in a chat with a bunch of managers. Is there a reason you didn’t contact Terry directly? If I were Terry, I don’t think I’d be offended but possibly annoyed in the way people feel annoyed when you CC their boss before you have a direct conversation. Also your question to Terry sounds kind of passive aggressive. You offered to help, but didn’t explain why you were reaching out leaving her to guess (and probably be kind of stressed out).

      In general, your answer here is to have a conversation directly with the person you’re concerned about and tell them directly why you’re contacting them.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        I think it also matters that you don’t supervise Terry, and it matters if you own the project Terry is responsible for. As described it reads like an overstep on your part to include other managers before talking to Terry first. It might be more understandable if you own the project and the other managers are stakeholders, but for a chat message, one-to-one is better than assembling a group.

        That said, I’ve had managers I don’t report to politely nudge me (usually by reply-all to the last email) about some task if they oversee that task and haven’t seen progress, similar to what you wrote to Terry, and it really is okay. Things get missed and a friendly, polite reminder would generally not be seen as stepping on toes. If one of those managers reached out because they were concerned they’d overstepped, I’d have responded just like Terry – not because I don’t feel I can say otherwise, but because it didn’t seem inappropriate to me. To be honest, even if I did feel called out, I still wouldn’t want the manager to pursue it if I had already said “no problem.” If it is a one-off, I would see it as the anomaly it is and forget about it. If it was a pattern with that manager, that’s a whole other issue but that doesn’t sound like the case here.

        The bigger issue is of course Rita complaining about you to either her peer or yours and making Addie a go-between. Rita sounds like a bad manager.

      2. Starbuck*

        This is all a good point and LW would probably have been wiser to reach out to Terry 1:1 at first – but I don’t think we know if Terry even complained! If she didn’t complain to LW it seems odd that she would have to Rita, who is even higher up (so presumably more intimidating).

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Is there a possibility to speak in person? I think the message to Terry solved a lot of problems; it apologised in case you did, and it allowed for the possibility you didn’t. If you really, really truly want to know you’re going to have to do in person communication so as to read her response. “Thanks for your kind response the other day. I just heard I might have stepped on your toes, so I just wanted to double check”. Then say nothing and let her break the silence; if there’s an issue this is her chance to gently indicate it, or her body language might reveal some discomfort. But if you want my honest opinion, I think Rita is just being a pill and she just takes the most negative interpretation possible. Would you second guess yourself without her?

    4. Sister George Michael*

      I’ve found everyone’s comments helpful, thank you! I think I’m an Ask person working in a Guess environment, which is new for me. I do know that Addie is telling me what Rita is saying; I think she feels caught in the middle. In the future, I’m going to take the advice to ask Rita directly about what she’s been whispering about; if nothing else, it highlights how ridiculous the telephone game is. I hope my direct reports know that if I have an issue with their work I’ll speak to them directly, and that I want them to feel comfortable letting me know directly about any issues.

    5. Sunflower*

      So it sounds like a few people could be messing up here. My first thought is that Rita is venting to Addie and doesn’t want Addie to actually do anything but she is getting involved where she shouldn’t be. Have you ever asked Addie why she is relaying the feedback to you and it’s not coming from Rita? I think that would be your first step in understanding more about Rita’s intentions.

      You need to have a blunt check in with Rita about what you say is your personality but could be about your communication style- and could be a legitimate concern. Your example with Terry is a bit concerning IMO. Using the words ‘stepping on toes’ and ‘offended’ isn’t really what’s going on here. If I was Terry and you put me on chat with a bunch of managers instead of asking me directly about something we were working on, I would assume you were trying to call me out to my manager about me dropping the ball and I would see it as an extremely aggressive move. And no I would not tell the manager who did this that I was upset over it. I’m sure that wasn’t your intention but this isn’t a matter of different personalities- it has to do with workplace communication and escalation norms. Ofc it’s Rita’s job to be talking to your directly about these things but if you like this job, you may need to manage up here a bit.

      I would check in with Rita and be honest about what’s going on. Say you’ve been hearing some info whispered down and you want to be sure you’re all on the same page and creating a cohesive team environment. I would mention Addie in there because it’s possible Rita doesn’t know Addie is doing this and it let’s her correct that with her. I would be honest about the Terry situation and say you are afraid you’ve mis-stepped and want to make sure you understand what the issue was – keep reinforcing how you want to create a good team environment and you want to keep the channels open and receive more feedback more often/in real time. This plants the ball firmly in Rita’s court and gives her no excuse to keep doing this. If Rita continues with complaining to Addie or not giving direct feedback, you have a clear path to tell Rita you two need to figure out what is happening here and possibly escalate the situation upwards.

  17. skeptic53*

    Hoping there will be a Black Friday debrief thread. I’m wondering if the era of online shopping and very extended dates for sale prices has decreased the craziness. At least it seems folks aren’t getting trampled to death these days! (Fingers crossed!)

    1. Starbuck*

      It would definitely be interesting to hear more from people in the retail field since so much of the content here is usually very office/professional focused.

    2. Pam Adams*

      We took the dogs to be groomed this morning. Target and the hobby store had half-empty parking lots.

      My BF buying was mostly discounted gift cards for places I like to go anyway.

    3. Ecom Black Friday*

      I work adjacent to ecommerce (my company provides a service to ecomm stores) and things were hopping on that side. Our customers were super busy and saw huge increases over last year.

    4. Rara Avis*

      A good day to take care of medical stuff. Breezed in and out of my 7:45 a.m. mammogram; no traffic; no waiting. Decided to get my blood work taken care of too; no waiting there either.

    5. Anon for this*

      This was my first Black Friday in retail since 2011. None of my customers were unkind (just messy) and we hit our sales goal surprisingly early in the day. My store is in a surprisingly healthy mall, and the parking lot was fairly full. Unfortunately, I am not picking up on / retaining what I am being trained on quickly enough and was redirected to a different task or part of the store by my coworkers / manager either over my headset or in person so many times that I ended up in tears less than an hour into an 8-hour shift. I suppose I’ll learn what the fallout of that is on Sunday or Monday.

  18. Margaret Cavendish*

    I got a job!

    This is my first-ever career change – I’ve been working in my field for more than 20 years, and it was definitely time to do something different. So I’ve been networking and informational interviewing with everybody I can think of for the past year or so, telling them how great I am and how I’d be a huge asset to their team if they ever had a position open. It’s a slow process, but it worked! All the stars lined up, and somebody knew somebody who was hiring for the exact thing I’ve been wanting to do. Close enough to my original field that it looks familiar, but different enough to present an entirely new set of challenges. I’ve been doing flaily-Kermit-arms all week about it. :D

  19. Double A*

    I do think it was a little awkward to create a chat with Terry and a bunch of other managers. Obviously you’ve been brief with context here, but without more context that definitely reads as if Terry is “in trouble” and I wouldn’t think they’d feel comfortable responding openly in a chat with a bunch of managers. Is there a reason you didn’t contact Terry directly? If I were Terry, I don’t think I’d be offended but possibly annoyed in the way people feel annoyed when you CC their boss before you have a direct conversation. Also your question to Terry sounds kind of passive aggressive. You offered to help, but didn’t explain why you were reaching out leaving her to guess (and probably be kind of stressed out).

    In general, your answer here is to have a conversation directly with the person you’re concerned about and tell them directly why you’re contacting them.

  20. Jaya*

    So I’m starting a new part-time position in two weeks. And I am grateful for it. Also still interviewing for other roles and applying.

    My worry is that once the position starts, I’ll lose incentive to keep searching for fulltime work even though I do need that eventually. Is it worth taking a break from job hunting for the new position, or should I keep up the momentum?

    1. CherryBlossom*

      You don’t necessarily need to stop the job hunt altogether, but you can definitely slow down and take the time to be more choosy.

      But, if you’re planning to have this part-time role for a while and put it on your resume, combined with the holiday season coming up, it certainly wouldn’t hurt to take some time to relax and catch your breath!

      1. Jaya*

        I’m not sure. On the one hand, been job hunting for six months, and apparently a tech recession is going on according to Business Insider but the article is subscribers only and I’m not paying $140 a year to read one article. So it may be a position before the economy corrects itself, or something stable before an imminent general recession or depression.

    2. Catagorical*

      Can you schedule a reminder to yourself for several weeks in ( where you’ve learned the tasks and started to get used to the schedule, whatever interval seems appropriate) to specifically think about this?

      Being on the job will give you more info on how to proceed. The part time work might absorb a lot of energy and effort, or it might settle in to where you can continue looking for full time.

  21. Leelee*

    General: how do you stop being a people pleaser at work/office peacemaker, while still being pleasant and maintaining good relationships? Or is this just impossible at a place where you’ve already been a long time?

    Somewhat related, but more specific: I usually make gifts for people in my office this time of year. There is very little, if any reciprocation. More importantly to me, there is essentially zero appreciation.
    I’ve also just had a truly terrible year, on all fronts, with no signs of things getting better. So, my resources are really limited, and I don’t want to spend them on these people, particularly when there are so many other people who I need to make things for (though I really don’t want to do that either).

    An office gift won’t work, or work very well, for a particular reason. But I’m afraid I’ve set an expectation here that I can’t drop, or people will take it the wrong way. What do I do? Just suck it up?

    1. UnCivilServant*

      If there’s been no appreciation, people might not react beyond “huh” when the gifts don’t show up this year.

      Depends on the people, I can’t discount the possibility of overly entitled people who will demand things regardless.

    2. Observer*

      Just don’t do it. If no one appreciates it, they may not even notice. And if someone *does* ask, a cheerful “Life gets in the way and I had too many commitments this year. ~~Change of subject subject~~?”

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I’m always amazed when people think they have to do stuff for people in order to have pleasant relationships at work. Just be pleasant! Kindness is a currency that you can never replace with stuff, even stuff that is clearly meaningful and representative of your kindness. Unless you work with terrible moochers, there’s no way there’s an expectation of continuing gifts when they haven’t gifted you back. This probably means “We’re just not that into gifts as a love language” as opposed to “you are our nominated gift-making elf, to whom we are so entitled, there’s no need to thank you or reciprocate.” If you really feel nervous (I don’t think there’s a need but worry doesn’t follow rules) about an upcoming expectation, I would do two things: 1) just drop a few comments: “Usually I’m so busy baking, or crafting at this time of year, but this year I am way too busy!” or “I wish I had time to make tree decorations this year, I guess everything is coming from the pound shop instead”. and 2) Wrap up some cheap chocolate or uni-gift that you can have on hand just in case this is the one time everyone decides to reciprocate for previous years (but I still don’t think you owe them). Once you’ve got past this, look for more low key, day to day ways to support your coworkers in ways they might like. Example, I’d never get my coworkers gifts, but I can tell when they’re having a bad day, need a friendly word or something specific. A colleague is just starting to eliminate wheat from her diet, as I did years ago, so I’m bringing her the best supermarket treats as “a taster menu”. She is thrilled and overtly appreciative, but equally, she might not have been. The key for me was, if she hadn’t seemed keen, to stop immediately. There’s always another opportunity to be kind around the corner!

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        ” The key for me was, if she hadn’t seemed keen, to stop immediately. There’s always another opportunity to be kind around the corner!”

        This is such a great approach!

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Two things jump out to me here:

      1) You say the gifts are unappreciated, which suggests to me that perhaps they won’t be missed or at the very least, not remarked upon if they don’t happen this year. I think you’re fine to skip them this year without it causing drama, but also: who cares if there’s drama? You’ve had a truly terrible year! Even if the gifts were appreciated, it’s not unreasonable to skip things when you’re not feeling up to it. “Sorry, I just didn’t have the bandwidth this year” is a reasonable thing to say to anyone who might express disappointment.

      2) I think it may be worth re-examining why you make and give gifts. Are you doing it because you like to make stuff and can’t keep it all? Your focus on reciprocity and appreciation feel like it’s less about wanting to do something kind for someone and more about wanting to get something in return. I had a colleague once who complained that her friend didn’t get her a small thank you gift for helping her move, and I said to her “Did you help her move because she’s your friend and you wanted to do her a kindness, or because you were hoping to get something out of it at the end?” Reciprocity is nice, and is often the polite thing to do, but if you don’t want to do something knowing the other person wouldn’t respond like you would, then don’t do it.

      But more importantly: these folks have shown you how they respond to your gifts, and that’s a data point you can work with. If it bothers you that they don’t reciprocate, you’re allowed to be mad about that! But that means changing something within your control (i.e. not making them stuff anymore) rather than expecting their behaviour to change. If you only want to give gifts to people who reciprocate and are appreciative of your time and efforts, then these are not your people.

      I will say as a fellow crafty type: people will almost never appreciate the effort you put into a handmade gift, and a lot of people are really specific about what kind of crafty items they do like. I knit and there’s a concept called being “knitworthy” that people tend to think about at this time of year, i.e. is the person you’re going to spend all this time and effort making something for going to truly love the end product? Consolidate your efforts on people who are handmade gift worthy and skip these folks at work.

    5. Diatryma*

      Gifts: thinking of the people in my workplace who Do Gifts, it’s much more noticeable to me if they drop the ball on something like a goodbye card vs just not bringing in treats, or not bringing their usual. A bag of candy with a nice card is more than enough.

      People-pleasing: it can take work to retrain yourself from, “Oh, that’s terrible, *offers help*,” to, “Oh, that’s terrible!” Especially if people hint that you could do them a favor. Try making people ask instead of offering, if you usually pick up on subtext (“I’m so busy with this report, and I still have to wash the dishes in the kitchen–” “Don’t worry about the dishes, I’ll grab those,” vs “That’s rough. I’m sure you’ll get everything, though!”), remind yourself that you are allowed to say no (you’d say no on behalf of your imaginary friend who’s in the same boat, right?) and remember that being pleasant to be around is not the same as doing everything. You can be a people pleaser but not a trouble fixer.

    6. WellRed*

      Is there an actual expectation or is that expectation coming from within? If you don’t have the energy, resources or frankly, fks to give, free yourself from this task. It’s also the best way to reset those expectations!

    7. Starbuck*

      You can definitely stop making the gifts! My holiday time/resources are also precious, and I have to prioritize for friends and family. If anyone asks you, this is a super reasonable explanation.

      Also, I DO NOT want gifts from coworkers because as you’ve demonstrated, it creates and expectation of reciprocation and I do not have the bandwidth for that. Your coworkers presumably did not opt in to a gift exchange with you.

      Office gifts, if they happen at all, should be a year-end bonus or catered lunch or whatever, from the company. Not from individual workers.

    8. Educator*

      Early on in my career, a mentor told me “Never be the person who brings muffins to work. You want to be known for your skills and competence, not your muffins.”

      Now that may have been an extreme take, and I have definitely brought in baked goods on occasion over the years, but the point is a good one–the best way to make people like you at work is by doing good work. Things like gifts are not required. I would let this go completely.

    9. Nancy*

      Stop giving gifts, I honestly think most people probably won’t notice. If someone does ask, just say you were too busy this year.

    10. I'm gonna hold your hand while I tell you this*

      Honestly, a lot of people might well be relieved when you don’t give them a gift this year. It doesn’t sound like this is something they particularly enjoy or appreciate, and they may find it uncomfortable or awkward to receive (for various reasons) and be glad not to have to go through that this year. I’d say just don’t, and carry on being normal otherwise. Most people probably won’t even notice, and if they do it would be extremely weird of them to get tetchy about it.

      As for having pleasant relationships, you do that by… being pleasant. Not a doormat, not desperately trying to buy approval with gifts, not bending over backwards to give people everything they want, just… pleasant. Generally thoughtful with good boundaries, helpful and kind within reason, warm and friendly without being needy. If you’ve established a reputation as a people pleaser it will take some time to get used to acting differently, but you can set boundaries and maintain them. People adjust! They might be surprised or confused briefly if you have changed your behavior significantly, but they will learn and get used to it.

  22. Redaktorin*

    Help! I’ve got an Audible subscription but have been super lazy about using it—or really just too overwhelmed from consistently working at least 60 hours a week at my last job. Now that I have free time, I’d like to try and read for pleasure again. Or listen to other people read while I drive back from school drop-off, I guess.

    I have *a ton* of credits built up. Interests include literary fiction, nonfiction deep dives into a concept or historical happening, and how-tos that might help me appear more friendly to neurotypicals. What do you recommend?

    2. skeptic53*

      Possession by A. S. Byatt. Two young academics stumble on letters that raise the possibility of a previously unknown relationship between two well-known Victorian poets. The novel alternates between the modern era as they try to beat rivals to the proof, and the Victorian era letters. Sounds like a pot boiler but it is actually very erudite.
      The Industry of Souls by Martin Booth. A British diplomat, falsely convicted as a spy, has been living in a Siberian village with friends, fellow ex-prisoners, after release from decades in the Gulag. The UK government locates him and offers repatriation to England. During imprisonment he had no contact with family or friends in UK. He must decide what to do. A very thought-provoking read.

    3. Pam Adams*

      For my Audible, I like retreads I don’t like listening to new books. Maybe start with a favorite or two.

    4. Morning Reader*

      I recommend getting several books in a series you have enjoyed in the past, to use up some of those credits. It’s fun to listen to old favorites.
      Otherwise, I recommend checking bestseller lists for nonfiction, or book club lists. My favorites lately have been Braiding Sweetgrass, the Invention of Nature, anything by Simon Winchester (he reads his own books.) the one about mushrooms by Sheldrake?

    5. EA*

      I loved audiobooks! Game changer for commuting for me. I really liked Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow, The Devil in the White City, and Jon Krakauer’s books. All nonfiction but with excellent storytelling and not too dense to process as an audiobook. Other recent books that I enjoyed: The Anxious Generation (if you have school aged kids might be interesting to you), True Biz, Piranesi (took me three tries – it’s weird – but ended up liking it, and many others do too).

    7. I take tea*

      I’m not big on audio books, but I really enjoyed Tara Westover’s memoir Educated as an audio book. As it deals with her learning to live in the world after her very weird childhood it might interest you, even if it isn’t exactly a “how to”.

    8. Hermione Danger*

      Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari
      It’s essentially a history of human existence, including all of those “relatives” that we have that weren’t specifically human, like Neanderthals and Denisovians. Fascinating and also in an odd way, comforting.

  23. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    What benefit would it be to set up FMLA if you aren’t currently taking leave of absence. I’ve had some time that i’ve missed but my direct supervisors are fine and I’m not in any danger of losing my job. But HR called me while I was on sick after being in the hospital and was asking me a bunch of questions. I went back to work the next day, as I planned. yes I was out of sick time but I still had vacation

    I talked with my supervisors and they only talked with HR because there was something weird in the system that was telling them I couldn’t take time off. Then HR calls me and asks if I want to do FMLA, even though I still had 40 hours of PTO. She made it sound like I really should sign up for FMLA. She also started asking me some questions about what my condition is (I have underlying medical issue). But I gave her bland answer.

    So I’m wondering, if I’m not in any danger with my job, why should I sign up for FMLA?

    1. Cazaril*

      In general, companies tend to make you take all your sick time and PTO before evoking FMLA. HR may just be concerned that you may eventually need FML and want to make sure you understand it’s available? Your supervisor may be able to help clarify things for you.

      I have seen a situation where an employer requires employees to take disability leave if they are out sick for more than a certain number of days. This is in California, where there is a state disability program that everyone pays into. Said employer seems to want to make sure they get their money’s worth!

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I work for a university in Wisconsin and our PTO resets January 1. I already talked with my supervisor and they didn’t know why HR asked me about FMLA. I think the problem was she thought I was taking all vacation time for 2 weeks (which would put me over for vacation). but that wasnt the case. I had a planned vacation of 4 days then ended up in the hospital for a few days and needed time to recover after being discharged. So really it was only a little over a week of unplanned time.

        Honestly our HR sucks. you can never get a straight answer. you email someone and find out 2 weeks later they no longer work in HR.

    2. Double A*

      Since FMLA is unpaid, it’s about job protection. It’s also easier to have it set up in advance before you’re out in the midst of a health issue. It’s something I would absolutely encourage anyone who’s having ongoing issues to have on file. You don’t really know your job is safe, so why not ensure the protection?

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I was out on FMLA last spring when I broke my shoulder and then had surgery. I had plenty of sick and vacation leave to cover, but they told me that my job was protected if I took FMLA. I ended up being out longer than expected so I was glad I did. I live in a state where there is paid medical leave, which was helpful.

    4. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Why not just do it? Get intermittent FMLA that protects you in case some busybody thinks you’re slacking off. If HR has already been called in your job may be more at risk than you think. Plus it could factor into employee evaluations, etc. If layoffs need to happen, and they look at attendance, it might become a factor.
      I’d get it documented/covered in case it ever becomes an issue. This is not a job market to stick your head in the sand and think you’re safe.

    5. Rara Avis*

      I was required to take FMLA when I dealt with a medical issue in the spring. It protects your job. I took sick time concurrently so I would be paid. All I needed was a letter from my doctor saying when I was permitted to return to work. HR does not need to know why.

    6. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      Check the FMLA policy. There was a statement in mine that you couldn’t use it again until you’d been back for a full year. So if there’s a chance that you’ll need to go out again for medical then you might want to wait. Also on intermittent FMLA, if I remember right, there’s usually an end date to use it.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I’ve used intermittent FMLA at other jobs and there is not an end date. It really depends on the condition. Since my condition is life long there’s not an end date.

        I realize you might not see this but I don’t think it’s legal for your employer to say that you have to wait 1 year to use FMLA again. By law it is 1 calendar year. So if you used 12 weeks April 2024 on January 1 2025 your FMLA availability resets. Now you might have to reapply, especially if its something different. For example you use FMLA for maternity leave one year and then the next year you have to have surgery. those are 2 different instances.

  24. Lirael*

    Hi all! 8 months pregnant and job hunting. I have an interview for a job next week that seems promising. It’s for a metro occupational RN job. Assuming I like what I see in the interview and I get an offer, any advice on negotiating maternity leave? I do have access to their current leave policy, which is a bit better than my current job. I’m thinking of just asking them to match that. But I know from this site that government jobs can be their own breed, so any advice is appreciated!

      1. Lirael*

        No, but I’ve read that companies will be flexible and offer their standard leave during the offer stage.

        1. Starbuck*

          If it’s the government, presumably they’ve got a policy somewhere that addresses this exact scenario.

        2. Ginger Cat Lady*

          Not many companies, probably only for rock stars they’re recruiting hard, and almost certainly not government. I would not plan on paid mat leave in any new job.

        3. fhqwhgads*

          I think you may be too late for that for most jobs. If you’re 8 months now and you don’t even interview til next week, it’s likely you wouldn’t have an offer until after the baby’s born. They’re not likely to hire you to go on leave immediately. More likely to just move the start date back.
          And as you noted, gov is it’s own animal. They’ll have a policy for this situation and will be very unlikely to have any flexibility on what it is.
          You’re not wrong to ask for what you intend to ask for, but I would have low expectations about actually getting it.

      2. Highlighter Cat*

        We things like maternity leaves it’s not a best practice for an employer to be flexible because it can look discriminatory to employees they aren’t flexible with.

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      Is the role unionized? If so, types and amounts of leave are almost certainly covered by the contract and cannot be negotiated. You’d probably be better off negotiating the start date to take parental leave at your current job, give notice, then have a bit of a break before the new job. Or, if leave at your current job is unpaid, resign at the time of birth and take the amount of time you want to take before starting. Government hiring can take a while anyway! But make sure you have all the info you need for starting with a very young one (e.g. pumping spaces, hours, hybrid vs. not).

  25. I Spend All My Nights At The Museum*

    My boss got let go before I got my annual performance review, so my grandboss is going to be giving me my review. The only issue with this is that my grandboss has had very little oversight over me with the exception of the past couple of weeks since my former boss was let go. I’m going into this knowing that my annual review is going to be a little… sparse (grandboss apologized in advance for it). I’m sure I’m going to be fine because I met expectations for the year but is there anything that I can realistically expect in a situation like this?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is there anything you can do in advance to get them up to speed on the details of how your year went? e.g. sending them a list of key accomplishments or projects you worked on, etc. Or anything you want to highlight that makes you look particularly good, but that you don’t think they’d have a reason to know about?

      1. I Spend All My Nights At The Museum*

        I work a non traditional job that has weird hours, most of my work is “preventative” in a sense. I’ve had kudos passed along to my old boss, who forwarded them to me, but aside from that there’s not a lot of metrics by which my performance can be evaluated. I’ll dig up those kudos

        I should probably also say that my shift lead and I did get promoted (by my grandboss) in the aftermath of my old boss getting let go, so I’m probably just a little anxious since this is my first annual review at this company

        1. Catagorical*

          Maybe an outline of topics you want to cover or things you could ask/suggest. And are the new expectations for your promotion (congrats) all clear?

        2. Bike Walk Barb*

          Sounds like an opportunity to think of it more as setting the stage for next year’s review. Acknowledge going in that grandboss hasn’t had much time to know your work directly and you hope you can understand their expectations for the new role. If they’ll pivot to those, you can take the opportunity to drop in examples of what you’ve done that already fit. “Oh, this will mean more teapot quality control? Last year I identified and fixed a major glitch in the epoxy supply chain so now the handles don’t fall off.” Basically show you’re ready for the promotion and thinking ahead. The fact that they promoted you is actually a good review in and of itself.

  26. Green Goose*

    Hi all. Any advice for how to deal with a team member, not someone you have authority over, who has a growing habit of over-volunteering to do things/take on projects but is then resentful about it? I have a colleague, who I’d like to maintain a positive working relationship with but we’ve had a few tiffs recently and I’m worried about an impending implosion.

    My colleague, Taylor, will offer to do something that falls into a gray-area of responsibilities, there could be an argument for why it would be her responsibility but there could also be an argument for why it would be my responsibility. We are two people managing a department and our boss is not great. My boss will change her mind on a dime so there are things that are added to our plates, moved around, and its challenging.
    Taylor recently told the team she was going to get a vendor set up for one of our programs, the vendor needed to be implemented in a backend system that I am the point person for but it was for a service that only she would use so it didn’t seem that weird that she was taking the lead on it since it’s not something I would be using. I asked a few times during the project onboarding if she wanted me to attend meetings with the external people so I could be cross trained and she said no. A few weeks later when we were both under a lot of stress from our boss, she blurted that she was annoyed that she had done that project and that it should have been me because it was in my realm. I was so stunned in the moment that I didn’t say anything and now it’s been a few weeks but I’ve noticed a few other times where she volunteers to do something and then after the fact expresses frustration at me for her doing it.

    I’m just not the type of person to volunteer to do something if I don’t have the bandwidth to do it so it’s hard for me to empathize, and also, I just take people at their word if they offer to do something. I do the standard, “are you sure?” one or two times after someone offers, but what is my responsibility after that?

    I’m a very non-confrontational person so my worsening relationship with my colleague is causing me some anxiety. We both work for a crummy boss who is not open to feedback/pretty dismissive and rude. I’m only planning on staying here another 18 months tops, but that’s a long time if it’s a tense working environment.

    1. WellRed*

      This is tough. My first thought was to just assume she won’t follow through but I see there’s a lot of gray areas where it makes sense for her to take the lead. I know you, like many people, say you’re not confrontational but have you ever, in an unheated moment, named the pattern? “You volunteered for this, and then expressed frustration that I didn’t do it. What am I missing here?” Think of it as conversational, not confrontational.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      This seems like Ask Vs Guess culture. You’ve asked and been direct, but your colleague is annoyed that you aren’t able to guess what she needs, so that she doesn’t have to ask. Guess culture people use hints as an instruction to offer to do something because it’s rude to ask. You won’t pick up a task unless you’re directly asked. I’m an ask person myself, so I would find Taylor exasperating, especially at work; Guess culture seems more tailored to be intimate/social to me “I understand you need this and I will be there for you without you having to ask”. But even in social situations guess stuff strikes me as passive aggressive.. Anyway! I’m just underlining how difficult it is to, as you say “empathise” when it’s not your interactive culture. This is what I would say to Taylor: “You and I are pretty much on our own when it comes to organising priorities and I don’t want you working on things that aren’t a priority for you. It not my expectation that you’ll do this, so can you tell me why you volunteered to do it? I want to get better at understanding.” (Then let her talk). “Okay, maybe you think I should have guessed that you needed me to do this; what signs did I miss that you needed help?” Hopefully this will at least signal to her that she can ask you for things, that you don’t consider it rude or an imposition. Also tell her to say “no” to you more and “I can’t do that!” Also, asking a Guess person closed questions like “are you sure” and “are you okay”? doesn’t work; they view all such questions as instructions to “tell me what I want to hear”. If you want the truth, ask more open ended discussion starters: “I was somewhat surprised you offered to do x; what’s your thinking on why it’s a priority to you?”

      1. Green Goose*

        Oh this is really interesting. I find Guess Culture people frustrating in general when it’s extreme, my mom and MIL can both be like this with family stuff and it really gets to me. Family events can literally be ruined because they won’t express what they want and then are frustrated and let everyone know how they were let down after the fact. So at work, I probably have less tolerance for it. I can definitely use more direct questions with Taylor instead of open-ended, thank you for that rec!

        I think there are other things too, where Taylor works way more than I do (by choice) and I think she is resentful of that. I’m a bit older and have extensive responsibilities outside of work so I won’t volunteer to do things that require me staying late. Now, if it’s one of my responsibilities then of course I’ll stay late, but if there is a side-project that one of our work friends is doing, I might volunteer to help during my lunch break but not something after hours, whereas I feel like Taylor will volunteer to do it but then be annoyed. In my head I think, well, why did you offer to do it? It’s not your responsibility and you already have a busy week, but it’s not something I would say to her because 1) I’m not her manager and 2) I don’t think it would help her/our working relationship.

    3. Highlighter Cat*

      People that volunteer for everything feel responsible for everything. They feel like they will be judged or punished later for not stepping up. They are also easy marks for people who want to shift work off of their own plates.
      It’s a struggle for me. I agree with the ask vs guess types too.

  27. Harps*

    My best friend (Angela) made a pretty big mistake at work and almost got fired. While I do think she was treated too harshly, I don’t think discipline was unwarranted. My partner thinks everything that happened to Angela is wildly wrong. I’m not sure Angela is learning the right lessons from this but I’m willing to hear I’m off-base.

    Angela and I met when we worked at the same company. She still works there, while I left 2 years ago. She is a high performer, and was promoted into my old job when I left, a senior-level individual contributor role.

    Angela really wants to be a manager. She was made a temporary manager for another team when their manager went on parental leave, and that settled it for her, it’s all she wants.

    Recently a few management positions opened up, including the manager for the team Angela is on. I thought she stood a good chance of getting the job, but it was far from a guarantee. The competition was fierce, and several other people with more management experience than her also applied. She didn’t get the job in the end.

    Angela was very upset, and vented to me quite a bit. She said she feels unmotivated to try in her current role and is job searching outside of the company. The way she phrased some things came off a bit immature, but otherwise she’s very valid in feeling unmotivated and wanting to work elsewhere.

    What I did not know is that Angela was very open about her displeasure in not getting the job at work. She told a ton of people currently working there how upset she was, including both her boss and someone who would have been her subordinate had she gotten the job. She also changed her LinkedIn to say she was open for work, which was her biggest blunder.

    Angela’s boss (my former boss) Jenny called Angela into a meeting and told her “I am going to fire you later today unless you can convince me not to.” Angela called me crying after thinking she was done for. Fortunately Angela did manage to convince Jenny not to fire her, but it was a close call.

    Angela is now behaving herself at work, doing her current job satisfactorily and is not talking to anyone at work about what happened. Her chances of getting a management job in the future here are over, and she knows it. She is still job searching, but is doing so much more quietly. She now hates Jenny and thinks she’s pure evil for moving straight to threatening to fire Angela instead of asking her what was wrong. Angela does not think she did anything wrong herself.

    While I agree that threatening to fire Angela was too harsh, I do see why Jenny moved straight to discipline and did not ask Angela about her feelings. I love Angela and I know she’s a good worker, but her response to not getting the promotion struck me as immature and unprofessional. Some of what she did could lead staff to be resentful towards whoever does get the job, including someone that person will manage directly.

    I thought Jenny was going to write her up for unprofessional behavior and tell her to cut the crap immediately or she would be fired. Going straight to threatening to fire her that day was too far I think, but I see why it was on her mind. Also, I worked with Jenny for years. She is a cutthroat asshole, but she is also predictable. If you keep your head down and do a satisfactory job she will leave you alone. Make her look bad though and you’re screwed forever. When I started job searching 2 years ago I hated every minute I was at work. As far as Jenny knew though I as a happy little worker bee fully dedicated to the company’s mission.

    I haven’t told Angela any of my thoughts, except that I agree that Jenny was overly harsh. I don’t know that I should, it’s too fresh of a wound and I think she needs me more to talk to than she needs me for advice. I have told my partner my thoughts and he thinks I’m wrong, that Jenny is pure evil and Angela’s actions were reasonable. His career is unusual though and he’s never had a “normie” job like this one, so that might be clouding his understanding of the situation.

    1. Slinky*

      I agree with you, 100%. Jenny jumping straight to threatening to fire Angela was too extreme, but Angela’s behavior was also a problem, for all the reasons you mention. I think you’re also right not to share this with Angela, especially since she has changed how she’s acting at work, but I definitely think you’re correct here and your husband is off base.

    2. WellRed*

      Angela was a little immature and as you say shot herself in the foot regarding promotion at that company. But I sympathize with her too and Jenny should have as well. If you gave Ang any advice it could be to remember to take a beat and cool down before raging off into a regrettable situation. I’m glad she’s looking elsewhere, her career at that company is dead.

    3. Starbuck*

      Angela came away with one good lesson here – if she wants to move upward, she’ll need to look elsewhere. But it’s really not reasonable to be bitter at work. Nobody likes it, especially when it doesn’t sound like the process was unfair, just competitive.

      You’re probably right that Angela doesn’t want constructive criticism right now, she just wants her friends on her side. I’ve had friends make much lower-stakes work blunders and then vent about how unfair it is to face consequences for that; absolutely none of them wanted to hear that actually they may have also been slightly in the wrong. “Damn that sucks” is my go-to if I’m not down for a venting spiral.

    4. Educator*

      I am Team Jenny on this one. While I would have told Angela that her venting was unprofessional and needed to stop immediately before I jumped to firing, I might have also considered immediate firing depending on the exact language she used–anything threatening or discriminatory, or anything that triggered concerns about her ability to protect our data and proprietary info, and she would have been right out the door.

      Management requires a lot of discretion, the ability to take bad news in stride, a deft hand at office politics and sound professional judgement. If Angela does not acquire those things, she won’t be successful in her next job either. But that can be hard to hear from a friend. Could you suggest a career coach or a professional mentor to her?

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, I don’t consider this to be jumping straight to firing anyway. Jenny gave her more than enough chance to avoid it. Clearly the employee wanted a discussion that enabled her to Air the Grievance, even if it was a disciplinary discussion. Jenny wisely went straight to “either you’re able to cut it out, or you’re fired”.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      Both of them are unprofessional and immature.
      The whole “convince me not to” framing is some sitcom nonsense right there. It’s ineffective and says she cares as little about maintaining professional civility as Angela’s public whinging about not getting the job did. And the LinkedIn nonsense.

      1. WellRed*

        Nonsense indeed.I feel like the LinkedIn should have been considered the least of her transgressions, not the worst. Sure, be subtle about but we are not indentured servants.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Jenny didn’t need to “ask Angela about her feelings”, as it must have been obvious what was going on (based on your description). I think by reacting that way Angela has shown she isn’t ready for the promotion (surprises, disappointments and other things that challenge you emotionally are pretty common in management and you have to be able to manage those emotions). I do think an official reprimand is warranted here as it seems to have been a campaign of behaviour rather than just a one-off outburst (which would have prompted “cut it out”). Why do you think the “open to work” incident was the biggest misstep here?

      1. Ellis Bell*

        I think it’s hugely dependent on industry and culture, how acceptable it is to be open to work. I’ve worked places where it’s not a big deal, and others were it’s a cardinal sin. Sometimes the consideration is competition, other times there’s no hard feelings, but logistically you’re going to start being left out in the cold, so it doesn’t make sense to advertise your intentions.

      2. Harps*

        It was her most visible misstep and gave Jenny hard evidence to cite for firing her. The other things Angela was doing were worse but most of it was harder to prove, it didn’t leave a paper trail. Jenny for sure picked up on the vibe but had no evidence other than a bad feeling until the LinkedIn update. This company always tries to get evidence in writing or a screenshot before firing someone and Angela handed to them with the LinkedIn update.

  28. Birdy*

    I suspect no one will see this since I’m late to the thread, but I mostly need to vent anyway.
    My workplace holiday party is coming up, and like most of our company events, it’s being held in a particular area of one of our locations. It mostly makes sense to have it there – there’s easy access to the kitchenette, a nice big space for any activities they want to hold, and tables and chairs always set up for socializing and eating.
    However – this space is incredibly inaccessible for anyone with mobility issues. Three flights of very steep stairs, no elevator because it’s an old building. And I have developed (invisible) mobility issues since last year’s party – I was even out on medical leave for a while. If this is the space used, I can’t go.
    I’m torn between not wanting to rock the boat, and feeling hurt and indignant at being left out. I don’t think it was malicious in any way, but I’m well aware that no one is going to realize the issue unless I speak up. So what it comes down to is that I have to weigh the pros and cons of either speaking up and asking them to come up with a different location on fairly short notice, or biting my tongue and just staying home since I’ll probably be tired anyway (yayyyy new disabilities -_- )
    And there’s the extra complication that I’m getting the sense that my boss is becoming impatient with my current limitations. So I’m also weighing if it’s worth drawing attention to my health in this way.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      I think there may be a third option you’re not considering. Your options aren’t just “ask them to change it” or “bite tongue and not go”. You could raise it – not to your manager especially if they seem frustrated with your limitations – but to HR, if there is one and they seem at all competent. Calmly, matter of factly mention that the space isn’t particularly accessible, and has the company considered that when planning events? You don’t need to make it about this specific event or making it a big thing like You Must Change It For Me. (You can, but you don’t have to.) You could just frame it as a genuine question: “has anyone considered this? I assume we don’t want to be exclusionary to people with disabilities” (regardless of whether the building itself is exempt from current code due to age). Do the “Of Course, you’re not being discriminatory on purpose” tone Alison recommends all the time. If they plain never thought of it – or did think of it but didn’t care enough to act, if they have any desire to not look like assholes – the question will be enough. Maybe not for this year, but more broadly. On the other hand, if they react poorly, then you know who you’re dealing with. But it’s also possible you’re not the only one with an invisible issue and the more people pointing it out the harder it is to ignore.
      In other words, you could speak up without it being a boat rocking situation, and also not go. If it’s genuinely not malicious, planting the seed may fix it. Plus or minus if you think your boss is specifically about to discriminate against you, you may want to talk to HR about that too, whether in the context of the issues with the event or not.

    2. Synaptically Unique*

      I agree with the other response, with the caveat that it’s really too late to bring this up for this year’s holiday party. I wouldn’t even address it until January. Last minute changes are tough and pricy, if even possible. And if it’s not possible/feasible, it will just make whoever ends up drawn into this conversation feel bad with no likely benefit to you. Bringing it up after things calm down in the new year will help them take those concerns into consideration as decisions are made throughout the year.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I don’t think its too late to bring it up. It doesn’t sound like they are renting a place, but are doing it at one of the business locations. The OP should talk with someone about the location and accessibility issues.

        This happens every year for my mom. Not only is it usually downstairs, but they also serve food that she cannot eat.

  29. Emac*

    How do you describe achievements at a job on a resume when the numbers don’t sound impressive? Or when you haven’t had any real achievements yet? I’m in a temp job that I’ve been doing since March, so I need to job hunt and this is my most recent relevant experience by several years, so I need to include it.

    I’m a program coordinator for a grad school program, specifically the clinical education part of it. All I can think of to say are more soft skills type achievements that sound insincere when I try to add them. Then if I try to add numbers, they just don’t sound impressive enough to add.

    Here’s what I think I’ve done well:
    – got up to speed very quickly
    – prioritized tasks while assisting to coordinate multiple courses at once (if I add numbers, it’s up to 5 at a time, which doesn’t sound like that much though it feels like it is, or 3 cohorts of up to 75 students each)
    – took initiative to get ahead on projects
    – managed main email inbox for clinical education program, communicating with students and clinical partners, and knowing when to escalate emails to faculty
    – prepared reports (in Excel, do I add that?) with tight turnaround times
    – supported the re-accreditation process

    I can’t think of specific achievements for any of those – I really haven’t been there long enough to have measurable outcomes.

    1. Glazed Donut*

      Could you add in some numbers? Ex: “Within 2 weeks, became well-acquainted with 10 programs and 15 faculty members to direct questions to appropriate departments”
      “Managed 5 courses at a time, accommodating 75 students in each of 3 cohorts”
      “Prioritized tasks to get ahead of schedule for projects by 7-10 days on average”
      “Replied to up to 50 emails a day in CEP”
      “Connected with 5 clinical partners”
      — combine as needed
      I would include how you use Excel, merely because I’ve seen people claim to be “competent in Excel” but merely use it to keep a list of first and last names. From my perspective, achievements are important, but so is just knowing the volume of work you’re used to – both for hiring and onboarding in a new role.

  30. TheBunny*

    I’m about 6 months into my job and struggling with a direct boss who… well she doesn’t want to let me do my job.

    I’m supposed to have 3 direct reports…but they go to my boss instead of me…because my boss is assigning them tasks and projects, so of course they check in with her.

    I’ve tried to say I want to be able to set team direction. I’ve tried to ask for more projects, nope.

    The latest is when I was out on PRO she met with the whole team and assigned out the project list for the team… for next year. When I was out. She doesn’t see tne issue.

    Do I keep beating my head on this wall? Do I just assume she’s happy and go with it?

  31. the bitch*

    I’ve had issues with our manager, who is rather new at supervising people.
    To be absolutely clear, I do have a supervisory role. I say pretty standard things that I am supposed to say, things like “please respect your breaks” and “since this is a phone coverage job, please be at your seat at your start time.” I’ve gotten a ton of pushback from my staff.

    This is partly because my manager tends to undermine me. There was a significant instance of this last year. I tried to set some reasonable limits on use of company devices for personal things and then a clerk yelled at me. Manager threw me under the bus, and I have not felt comfortable enforcing things since. (Even though it is part of my job.)

    One employee in particular has been an issue. He’s been very obvious about using his phone in customer-facing areas, he doesn’t do his regular morning tasks and goes straight to his social media, he doesn’t get to other assigned tasks, etc.
    The thing is, he does not take notes or feedback well. He tends to go wide-eyed with terror. I am telling you, this happens for the most innocuous things. For example, I’ve asked him and another clerk to put their phones or other personal things away when customers are present. I was careful to be tactful and clear, always paying careful attention to my tone. One clerk took the feedback fine; this one seemed upset.

    I had a meeting with my manager about it months ago, initially in the context of me asking her to support me more, because I thought he was only reacting this way to me. She mentioned that she’s noticed the exact same issue, and she’s afraid to give him feedback as a result.

    I had to give him a note or two in the past while. (Of course, she still doesn’t give him feedback.) He just quit, citing ‘work environment issues.’
    This of course must sound like one of those ‘surely we’re not getting the whole picture here and this manager must be a tyrant’ things. And of course, I’m hoping it’s not that. I am reasonably certain that I’ve been doing my job like a normal person—I do my absolute best to be tactful and courteous and reasonable.

    I’m not sure how to feel. In some ways, I think the timing was right. But I’m upset that me asking him to adjust something *standard* this week, that my manager actually saw first but didn’t say anything about, seems to have upset him this much. And again, part of my issue is that if my boss never says anything, then me occasionally (occasionally!!) saying things like “please put your phone away when customers are here” makes me seem like a tyrant in comparison.

    My boss said she’ll ask for more info, as she should. But I’m wondering if it’s time for me to escalate this to someone above her. I feel like I can’t do my job.

    1. Mr. Green Tea*

      Is the guy who left young and new to the workforce? Asking because the way he handled it sounds like the way I might’ve handled minor reprimands when I first started working a grown-up job (didn’t learn it in college and I was working office jobs while my family all either worked for the city or in different blue-collar fields, totally different work cultures). In that case, there’s nothing you really could’ve done differently so I wouldn’t worry about it.

      Regarding your manager, it sounds like he doesn’t necessarily know how to manage. Does your employer put managers through some sort of managerial training? It sounds like that could help him, but suggesting that to him or his boss or HR is a touchy thing. Another commenter might have advice on that.

  32. Mr. Green Tea*

    Okay, coming in pretty late here, but I’ve got a weird situation with a recruiter and I’m wondering how to best handle it.

    So I’m not actually looking and I just politely tell that to any recruiter who pings me. Like 99% of the time that goes over fine, I either get no response or a “thanks for letting me know, feel free to get in touch if anything changes or if you know anyone who might be looking” type of unremarkable, very professional response.

    Except for this one guy who’s decided that means he needs to really do a pushy, hard sell on it, and responded with “I’ve passed your profile onto this hiring manager, he really likes it, he wants to interview you at X time, please confirm if that works.” My question is, how do I respond to this? I kind of want to send the recruiter a “I have been very direct and unambiguous that I’m not looking. That you’re ignoring that fact means I won’t be working with you or any agency you work with now or any time in the future” and sending the HM (recruiter sent me his name and LinkedIn profile for some reason) a “hi, this recruiter John Smith is claiming to represent me and that I want to interview with you, not sure how he’s presenting this to you, but I’m not looking to change jobs, let alone working with him. I apologize for any confusion this might’ve caused you, happy holidays.” but I’m not sure if that’s appropriate. Thanks for your response.

    1. Miracle*

      I would ignore it. Its probably a scam and the more you engage, the more vulnerable you are. I don’t know if you can block on linkedin but if you can, just do that.

    2. Joron Twiner*

      I understand the impulse to tell someone more about why they’ve bothered you, but since your ultimate goal is to not work with this person, and you don’t know the hiring manager or have any relationship you need to preserve there… is there a reason why you can’t just ignore the LinkedIn message? And any subsequent ones? Just block and move on?

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Just ignore it. And if you happen to get a call or email from the company explain to that person that you told the recruiter that you were not interested and offer to send screenshots. This is why recruiters get a bad rap. People like this who do not take no for an answer or use other tricks.

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