open thread – November 8, 2024 by Alison Green on November 8, 2024 It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers. * If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer. You may also like:my employee refuses to lie to customers -- but that's our policymy employee wasn't respectful enough after the company messed up her paycheckneed help finding a job? start here { 1,128 comments }
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:04 am Tell me your work joys and kind things that happened at work or things that you did for someone to be kind this week, please. I had a colleague buy me coffee and another help me word a letter that was to a vendor that is difficult.
Freelance Bass* November 8, 2024 at 11:08 am So, this was obviously a pre-election result kindness, but I was a poll worker on Tuesday, and a couple bought us all pizza. We were on hour 15 and it meant a lot!
Freelance Bass* November 8, 2024 at 12:24 pm Honestly my pleasure. It was my first time poll working and I was mainly looking for some extra cash (my industry has been on the strugglebus this year) but I ended up loving it! It actually kept me sane and distracted that day because we weren’t allowed to talk about anything on the ballot. I totally recommend it to anyone who needs a one-time gig!
JFC* November 8, 2024 at 12:53 pm My aunt has been a poll worker for probably 40 years, and she really enjoys it. She was a school bus driver, so it was the perfect way to supplement her income. Our state sometimes has Saturday elections and the schools are closed if elections are on a Tuesday. Her daughter (a hairstylist) does it with her now. They’re both extroverts, so they enjoy talking to people throughout the day (and perhaps spending some extra time gossiping if it’s a slow turnout day).
civic engagement is cool* November 8, 2024 at 2:47 pm I’m also a poll worker (this was my fourth or fifth election) and I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it! Your point about being distracted and busy is definitely why I do it. I second the recommendation for anyone who wants to keep busy or needs an outlet for community engagement :) it is a long day for sure, but very rewarding to be able to help people.
Reluctant Mezzo* November 8, 2024 at 7:49 pm I worked as an observer and watched them (on screen) ‘cure’ ballots. You would not think that “Vote for One” was a hard instruction….
Texan In Exile* November 8, 2024 at 11:27 am I worked the polls as well and a voter brought us a bag of conchas and churros. There were a bunch left over at the end of the night and nobody else wanted them so I brought them home and we have been snacking on generosity and thoughtfulness.
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 11:45 am My brother was also a poll worker. Thank you for doing this! Love the line “snacking on generosity and thoughtfulness.” We could all use some good snacks like those.
Frieda* November 8, 2024 at 4:54 pm I was a first-time poll worker this year and because of a John Irving essay about polling places in Vermont that are overflowing with pies and other baked goods, I was a little hopeful that we’d somehow have snacks even though I’ve never seen snacks in a polling place in my state. Alas. We did get paid lunch and dinner breaks, and I should clear just north of $150 which I can then donate to my local campus food pantry for some discretionary money for students in need of things the pantry might not have. So they’ll get snacks!
Lily Rowan* November 8, 2024 at 12:22 pm Also a poll worker and we got free leftovers from the bake sale outside!
Chocolate Teapot* November 8, 2024 at 4:47 pm I was a polling clerk in this year’s European elections, and agree it is a long tiring day but a nice bit of extra money. In our case, we got sandwiches provided, and the head of our polling station always brings her coffee machine.
Chaos Farmer* November 8, 2024 at 8:03 pm Someone had pizzas delivered to my location. We thought at first a person in the 2-hour-long line ordered for themselves, but we finally figured out they were for us. (Thank you, Veronica.)
Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)* November 8, 2024 at 11:09 am I’m all here for the small acts of kindness threads :) The receptionist today told me that my dress was fantastic and it made me smile.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am I agree with the receptionist it is a great dress! :) have a good weekend too!
Yorick* November 8, 2024 at 11:53 am I go to the library often and one of the librarians always compliments my cute dresses!
Red Reader the Adulting Fairy* November 8, 2024 at 11:09 am I’m pretty sure I didn’t get any of the positions I applied for (I haven’t heard anything official yet but it was announced that offers had been made, and I haven’t gotten one) which is fine – I’m very happy in my current job – but the few coworkers who knew I had applied, including my boss, have all been very supportive in the “that sucks, their loss, but at least we get to keep you” sense, which has been a comfort. It’s nice to work with people who both value me and want to see me succeed.
LivesinaShoe* November 8, 2024 at 12:36 pm That’s very sweet – and shows that they are probably right!
English Rose* November 8, 2024 at 11:09 am Great question! I met a co-worker for another site for the first time in person and found her interesting, funny and a complete delight.
AMH* November 8, 2024 at 11:12 am We had an employee chili cookoff this week, put together by our new employee engagement team. It seems such a little thing, but something about being in a place where people were laughing, joking, cheerful for a few hours was so lovely right now. And my coworker who represented our department kept giving me the leftovers from her delicious test batches, so I ate like a queen for a week.
ThatGirl* November 8, 2024 at 11:13 am Totally by coincidence we had a small volunteer event on Wednesday that had been pre-planned; we made Christmas/Hanukkah/holiday cards for kids who are in the hospital – they are distributed through a national charity to pediatric wards. We busted out the markers and stickers and cardstock and construction paper and glue and made little bits of joy; it was very therapeutic.
StressedButOkay* November 8, 2024 at 11:13 am As a manager, I tried to move as many meetings my direct reports were in to next week to give them just time. I also told them to do what they could but that the work would be there on Tuesday if it took them longer to do it because they needed to disassociate or go outside or be with family. I hope it helped.
dude, who moved my cheese?* November 8, 2024 at 12:28 pm I had a vet appointment this week and always get a donut from an amazing local spot nearby (after dropping kitty safely at home—it’s not a long detour). So I brought the vet techs and shelter staff a couple boxes of donuts because f it, it’s such a hard job and for many a hard week.
WS* November 9, 2024 at 4:33 am I bought a treat basket for the vets who put down my (very elderly and ailing) cat with great kindness. They were absolutely thrilled – apparently they rarely get presents! They’re great, they should be appreciated.
even more anonymous than usual* November 9, 2024 at 2:14 pm That’s so lovely, thank you for doing that. (I asked a relative in vet medicine first – if they’re elbows-deep in gross medical things all day do vet staff even want treats? They said YES.)
Anne Elliot* November 8, 2024 at 11:14 am The “Book Recommendations” slack channel at my work is sharing a) political/authoritarianism books and b) escapist books so that everyone has a recommendation for whatever their emotional need is right now
happybat* November 8, 2024 at 11:25 am I saw a very charming post on the fantasy romance subreddit, inviting the fairies/aliens to take us away anytime now, please.
RedinSC* November 8, 2024 at 12:19 pm Book recommendation for your slack – Autocracy, Inc by Anne Applebaum
TheBeanMovesOn* November 8, 2024 at 1:11 pm I did get to connect to a few coworkers over some books this week
Keladry of Mindelan* November 8, 2024 at 11:15 am I commented below about my new job woes, but something yesterday that made me smile– I was on my way back to my office after lunch and ran into someone who was on my hiring committee who I hadn’t seen since (this is my first week at a new job). She asked where my (extremely isolated) office was and, upon hearing my response, said “Oh my goodness, you must be so lonely back there!!” and took me around the floor to introduce me to three different people and show me where the coffee pot was.
Medium Sized Manager* November 8, 2024 at 11:54 am People who INSIST on introducing you to others are saints among mortals.
kiri* November 8, 2024 at 11:18 am I work at a front desk in a higher ed institution. We had a facilities guy hand in a campus ID he found at the bottom of an elevator shaft (!). The ID had been replaced, but it was on a lanyard that had clearly been thoughtfully decorated (cute charm, cute case, etc). I emailed the student whose ID was in the case, and they were SO excited and ran right over to pick it up – they thought they’d never see their cute things again! Was nice to do a small thing to make someone happy this week, especially.
Kimmy Schmidt* November 8, 2024 at 11:29 am I’ve been working with my boss on a special project and she sent me a really lovely message thanking me for my contributions and how she’s learned from my skills.
Katara's side braids* November 8, 2024 at 11:29 am I reached out to my former intern, who became a citizen last year and voted for the first time on Tuesday. We’re meeting for bubble tea next week.
Damn it, Hardison!* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am My company launched a mentoring program recently, and I met with my new mentor for the first time. She is delightful, and I think I will learn a lot from her.
Nesta* November 8, 2024 at 11:35 am A coworker from another office was walking by and poked her head in to check on how we were doing. It was so quiet that day and everyone was so in their head, it was nice to have someone care about us who could have just kept walking!
Elly Marie* November 8, 2024 at 11:41 am Not work, but I’m helping out with costumes for a local community theater and it’s tech week. One of the young cast members told me that I “have a solution for every problem” and it was encouraging to hear that.
Anon for this* November 8, 2024 at 11:49 am I work in a newsroom, so you can imagine how intense the past week has been. But even when stress levels were at their highest, people on our team were making an effort to be kind and calm. One coworker even said something along the lines of „the heavier the workload, the friendlier everyone is“, which hit the nail on the head. Still a tough week, but yay for kind coworkers!
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 11:44 am I telework almost 100% of the time. My best friend who works for the same agency and lives nearby texted Wednesday night and said, “I need community. Want to work at HQ Thursday, bike in with me, and eat lunch together?” This was a great idea. Chilly ride with chatting along the way, then lunch sitting outside in very warm sunshine that was a surprise for this time of year. We’re planning to do it every week, and then in the evening go to a local yarn shop for their social knitting hour they hold Thursday nights.
Zanshin* November 8, 2024 at 11:49 am I am one of four artists doing a long term volunteer project at our local homeless shelter/day use program. Election day we were notified we were approved for a grant that will provide supplies plus materials to prepare art for public exhibition and poetry chapbook publication! Think globally, act locally!!!!!
Medium Sized Manager* November 8, 2024 at 11:53 am I am the sole Canadian working for an American company, so I don’t have any built-in coworkers if I choose to go into the office. I have been going in for events and trying to develop relationships, but it’s a little terrifying/intimidating, if I am being honest. Yesterday, one of the women running the event told me she remembered me from the previous event and chose me as her “safe person” to look at if she was nervous during the presentation because I was very engaging in the last session, and THEN told me I should consider some higher level events since the one I attended is geared towards people with less experience than me. Mind you, this was our second time ever meeting! I have been riding that confidence high ever since, and it really gave me the courage I needed to just act like I freaking belong already! I am planning to send her a thank you note next week to pay it forward but it was the win I needed :)
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 1:13 pm I am glad to hear this – so great she told you this and you had a great day!
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 11:55 am I was off two days this week with a nasty case of bronchitis and the other person in my department covered my desk while I was gone (shipments don’t stop and have to be covered) AND helped out yesterday, my first day back, with NO griping. That was nice, for a change!
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 1:29 pm Thanks! He does good work, but can really be a whiny person quite often.
overeducated* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am One of my colleagues is being moved to another department under a re-org. She set up a recurring coffee chat invitation with me and another coworker so we won’t lose touch. I appreciate that. Another coworker and I chatted past our necessary meeting time twice this week. Usually I try not to do that because we have a lot of work to do, but sometimes it helps to connect on a personal level as well as get through the to-do list.
Parakeet* November 8, 2024 at 12:00 pm A work joy from this morning: I was attending a hybrid meeting remotely. A speaker’s pet pigeon landed on her head while she was speaking, and did not want to get off. She eventually got it to sit on the head of the back of her chair and preen. People absolutely loved this. It definitely improved my mood.
RedinSC* November 8, 2024 at 12:35 pm I love when pets photobomb zoom meetings. But I’ve never seen a pet pigeon! How fun.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 1:16 pm Pets in meetings are great but a pigeon would be a marvel. I love them.
epicdemiologist* November 8, 2024 at 12:06 pm My boss is being very understanding about my need to take it easy while dealing with/recovering from COVID. Mild case, fortunately, but I’m still dealing with fatigue, brain fog, cough/sneezing/headache, and REALLY REALLY don’t want to pass it along to anyone else!
Magnolia Clyde* November 8, 2024 at 4:30 pm I’m glad they’re supporting you on that. Hope you feel well soon!
Pam Adams* November 8, 2024 at 12:10 pm I just helped a student earn their degree after 30-plus years.
Yorick* November 8, 2024 at 12:13 pm Facebook memories reminded me of the time a famous academic who wrote a famous theory emailed me to say my newly published paper testing his theory was important.
Pickles at a Potluck* November 8, 2024 at 12:14 pm I work in foreclosure prevention, and sometimes a “success” still involves someone losing their home, just in a voluntary way. I was helping someone who was preparing to sign over their home and they thanked our team for being so kind and helpful during such a difficult time. Almost made me cry. We get a lot of pushback when we can’t get people the outcome they want and it was so lovely to be thanked for our efforts even when they were losing their home.
happy people* November 8, 2024 at 1:34 pm Thank you so, so much for the work you do. I had to surrender my house back to the bank last year after years of struggling to try and catch up on my mortgage payments in the wake of a divorce and mental health struggles. It was so incredibly difficult, and a lot of the people in my life who tried/wanted to support me just ended up stressing me out by pushing me to keep fighting to keep the house long after it became obvious to me that it would not be feasible. The people I encountered in this process who were professional, helpful, and matter of fact about the actual solutions I could pursue were such a godsend.
Silvester* November 8, 2024 at 12:15 pm Great question! I work at a theatre which was closed for several months while the floor was being repaired. We opened last month and our seating rake (which is the last thing to get us “back to normal”) just went back in today! :)
Clownshoes Nonsense* November 8, 2024 at 12:26 pm Coincidentally we had a team building exercise for my office planned for Wednesday (a sushi making class). I was dreading it- it felt like a huge lift to get presentable and have to put my social/professional face on. But it was really, really nice to connect with colleagues- who are uniformly lovely people- over something delicious and inconsequential.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 1:21 pm Sounds like fun just do not read the previous post about potlucks !
Past Lurker* November 8, 2024 at 12:31 pm Bought a small cake for a coworker for their birthday today. They were so happy!
Cat Herder* November 8, 2024 at 12:38 pm My cubicle neighbor helped me draft a letter to my landlord/slumlord (personal task, on company time) to get me out of my lease 8 months early. Landlord accepted, and I’m now on my way to move out of my high-crime city to a safer, quieter small town that’s still within commuting distance (not changing jobs). So grateful for this person’s kindness and guidance!!
The Prettiest Curse* November 8, 2024 at 12:39 pm I put together a long-ish list of useful info and links that I wished I’d known/had when I first started my job and sent it to a new colleague. Added bonus – the new colleague is lovely and seems like the my will be a great addition to the team!
Dark Macadamia* November 8, 2024 at 12:50 pm Coworker sent out an email inviting people to visit her classes on Wednesday because the kids were working on a really fun project. It was so uplifting. Teens and tweens really are wonderful people.
Casey* November 8, 2024 at 1:00 pm My brilliant lovely friend just got promoted! She’s going to be an amazing manager. We all went out for drinks to celebrate and it was great seeing her direct-reports-to-be clearly looking forward to working for her.
Casey* November 8, 2024 at 3:30 pm Thanks! It is so nice seeing your positivity all over this thread.
KirinKirin* November 8, 2024 at 1:02 pm I work remotely but my company is very “we have a Culture” and if you’re not on site, it’s really hard to be a part of the culture. I was covering a meeting for a colleague and only one other person came in to the Zoom room and told me she was really excited it was just the two of us because she loves talking to me. Most of my coworkers act completely indifferent to me no matter how hard I try to make inroads with them, so that really brightened my spirit for the week.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 1:25 pm I am glad for you and hope it gets better with the other colleagues!
Hillary* November 8, 2024 at 1:21 pm Someone I’ve been having career chats with accepted a new job – full time and reasonably paid with benefits after years of underpaid gig & part time work. I’m so happy for them.
Mini Moose* November 8, 2024 at 1:28 pm I work in informal education, and I had to give an in school program the day after the election. I was prepared for a lot of varying levels of disruption from the students (which are considered a “problem group”), but we had so much fun. I got to tell them it was the most fun I’ve had doing this program in a long time, because of them. This group never hears that, and it made me remember why I do what I do in the first place.
kalli* November 8, 2024 at 1:31 pm I made a friend at work – my previous work friend left and literally nobody talked to me except to assign tasks or inform my my boss was away until this last round of union negotiations and turns out I was right, the new guy is not only very very gay but we have political things in common so now I have a new work friend and he has his first work friend and we’re both ‘this is not okay, we’re not okay, the world is not okay!’ and feeling very validated right now.
Margaret Cavendish* November 8, 2024 at 1:39 pm I got a note from HR that someone on my team has reached a certain threshold of absences, and I should enter him into the first stage of the Attendance Management Program. This employee has been with the org for 25 years, and has never once had a problem with attendance. The reason he’s been aware more this last period is just “life happens” stuff – major car repairs, two minor surgeries, his wife had surgery, that kind of thing. He’s been transparent with me all along, and I’ve been approving them all along, and I’m not going to go to him out of the blue and say HR has a problem with his attendance. So I politely told HR to get lost, and said nothing at all to my employee.
HungryLawyer* November 8, 2024 at 1:59 pm I told my team that they didn’t need to be on Teams or really responsive to anything on Wed., that I could handle all requests that came our way. I also told them to take as many breaks as they need to this week. Happy to say they all took me up on that.
Banana Pyjamas* November 8, 2024 at 2:27 pm The statistics professor decided to do away with the lockdown browser and it’s subpar calculator.
Rage* November 8, 2024 at 2:32 pm I work in Compliance at a mid-sized non-profit healthcare outpatient clinic. We have a mascot – the HIPAA Hippo – who shows up on occasion to remind people to protect our clients’ PHI. When I say mascot, I mean a full-on mascot hippo suit, with a superhero cape and everything. Some years back our Talent Development & Marketing teams put their heads and talents together and made some of the most hysterical HIPAA trainings – featuring said hippo. We sadly don’t use those videos anymore, but at least the hippo remains. It’s Compliance Week, so of course the hippo made an appearance. My manager walked him through our cubicle area. As soon as they arrived, I immediately locked my workstation. “Has the hippo signed a confidentiality waiver?” I asked. Manager, “No.” “Who authorized him to come into this area?” “I dunno,” she said with a grin. “He just showed up.” I then submitted a “Workplace Health and Safety Report”, indicating the breach of policy for allowing an unauthorized visitor into an area where PHI could be seen, and that they had failed to have him wear a visitor’s badge. All of the executive team, along with the members of the Workplace Health & Safety Committee, got a huge chuckle out of it. Just a silly thing, but I think we all needed the ridiculous laugh.
Rage* November 8, 2024 at 3:00 pm If anybody wants to see the video that started it all, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XnOMfL286c
NotSoRecentlyRetired* November 8, 2024 at 10:47 pm YES, all the rules for the area must be met for the visitor. My previous company had a holiday elf who had a badge, only visited areas they were cleared for, and was escorted by security.
allathian* November 8, 2024 at 2:41 pm Had a great day at the office. My employer won an industry award and we got coffee and cake. We took the leftovers to the break room so that those who were stuck in meetings for the event also got a share. I like going to the office sometimes when there’s a reason that means others will be there too. This time I saw a few people I haven’t seen in person since March 2020. My 15 year old son just completed his first two-week unpaid internship at a hardware store. His boss and coworkers were happy with his efforts and he learned a lot. My close coworker’s going on job rotation to a sister agency for 6 months and I’m on the interview panel. Our boss had listed a few applications for me to look at. One of them looked like a really good fit, but the candidate was missing a must-have skill, which I noticed as soon as I looked at their resume. I pointed that out and my boss complimented me on my ability to cut through the crap and see the essentials like I’d been hiring for years. I must admit that felt great. Lots of good stuff this week!
DrSalty* November 8, 2024 at 3:10 pm We are doing performance evaluations this week, and I’m taking great pleasure in writing glowing reviews for all my reports. They’ve been so fantastic this year.
anonymous academic* November 8, 2024 at 3:18 pm Our library at work has a display for Transgender Awareness week & upcoming day of remembrance. It looks like it’s there for the whole month, but made me feel less alone to see it.
Aphrodite* November 8, 2024 at 4:21 pm I work at a community college with a strong union for classified (support) employees. We can use hourly employees as long as they work for limited periods of time and no more than 19.5 hours a week. But there are positions called substitutes and while these are sort of like hourlies (getting no benefits) they are given more access into the systems, allowing them to work with student records) and to work up to 40 hours a week. They are also paid more than hourlies. Their contracts last no more than 60 days and cannot be renewed because these positions are meant to cover urgent situations. A has worked as an hourly but was approved to be a sub; that sub contract ended on October 22. But … she continued working as a sub (hours/pay) until Wednesday this week when someone from HR refused to approve her timecard. That’s when I found out about it. Another person and I met, talked to someone slightly higher up in HR and finally learned all the nuances about this hourly/sub thing. A had been sent home that morning as she had already worked 19.5 hours this week. And we soon decided we had to bring the dean in on it. We did but that dean was very “oh hum” about it and wanted to deal with it later when her assistant was back. In the meantime, the HR guy had gone to his boss, the VP of HR and laid it all out. The VP said I will approve a new 60-day contract to be effective 10/23-12/23 and only three other people need to sign it. A, in the meantime, was extremely upset. I called her twice after I got her cell number, told her that things were happening and to keep the faith. I was quite worried as she really, really, really wants to be a permanent staff member–and she is outstanding. We really cannot afford, and do not want , to lose her. Because … at this same time interviews were going on for a role that she is/was filling in Admissions & Records. She had applied but had not noticed when she submitted a new application that her work history was blank. So HR kicked her app out during the first review of it and she had missed getting an interview. Downward spiral. Then … everyone finds out someone is retiring five days later from that department. So it’s upward again. And then this happens. I haven’t told A much of all this behind-the-scenes stuff but I almost called the union to tell our president what had happened. And I would have not the VP become involved because I firmly believe that no one should be jerked around the way A has been–and especially because the dean took it so casually. She would not have done so if she had needed the job and the money. My co-worker and I were all over this so I feel very, very good about what I have done. Someone is happy, someone will get this second job, someone will become permanent, someone will have her pay stay the same and be able to work the extended hours. In a really lousy week I made myself happy by my deeds.
Firefighter (Metaphorical)* November 9, 2024 at 4:06 am I work at a regional uni in Australia so I really get this situation, and what you did is an act of true heroism. Thank you! You rock!
Maggie May* November 8, 2024 at 4:31 pm I was offered a job that aligns more with my career goals! I start in two weeks.
Roteg* November 8, 2024 at 4:40 pm My team has had a hard week, but we have been texting positive thoughts and support since Wednesday. The face that all our care for each other is even stronger in tough times was so encouraging to me (and I love all this thread too), especially as I am usually a person who takes care of others and…they took care of me back.
Forest Hag* November 8, 2024 at 5:09 pm I started a new job in August, and everyone has been so kind – my new coworkers and my new clients. I’m a consultant, and I know not all clients are going to be super kind, but the ones I’m working with right now are just the best. Even though I’ve only been on the project for a few months, they always make sure to include me whenever they mention my boss (who they have mostly been working with), or anything we are involved in – I expected to be sort of ignored my first several months just because I was a new face and no one knew anything about me, but they haven’t done that at all. It’s such a change from my previous organization – rarely thanked or remembered. I don’t need a ton of praise or anything, but it’s just nice to be thanked sometimes, or remembered at all. Also, everyone has spelled and/or pronounced my last name correctly. It’s not a difficult name to get correct (fairly common English name in the US), but no one at my last job would ever pronounce it or spell it accurately, even if it was staring right at them (like in a Teams chat). Again, it’s a tiny thing, but it makes such a huge difference to feeling valued. All of this has been really energizing, and it’s helping me get over the burn out from my last job.
Compliments to your mother* November 8, 2024 at 5:43 pm I was treating a coworker to her favorite coffee treat drink and recognized the daughter of an old friend behind us in line. I work at a university and this is her first year here as an out-of-state student. I insisted that she let me buy her drink, then took a pic with her to text to her mom. Friend responded later that her daughter had been having a rough time this week coming from a blue state and being a first-time voter in a (very) red state. I was so grateful I had the chance to take care of her in a small way.
nonprofit llama groomer* November 8, 2024 at 5:54 pm Our manager allowed anyone who could to not come in/leave early and take leave/work from home on Wednesday and closed the office to the public. I had something that didn’t allow me to leave before 4. I’d worked in a disaster-affected area 2 1/2 hours away the day before and it was pretty depressing. He let me cry and feeling-dump at him (yes I mean at him) for a minute during my quick break and I could tell his eyes were red too.
WoodswomanWrites* November 8, 2024 at 5:59 pm Yesterday I saw one of my colleagues who is gay, nonbinary, and an immigrant of color. I connected with them to assure them that no matter what is happening in the world, I am here to support them. They hugged me.
Elle Woods* November 8, 2024 at 6:00 pm I had a really positive experience at a local store and took a couple of minutes to write a brief note to the store manager to let him know how great the employee who helped me was.
Jaya* November 8, 2024 at 8:11 pm It was my older brother’s birthday and he was able to fly in for a day between work events. While it was a rush job, I was able to make one cake for our family since we have siblings with allergies, and Mom got a carrot cake locally that he likes.
GladToBeAlive* November 8, 2024 at 8:48 pm Not sure if it counts but I decided my mental health is more important than the magic “1 year mark” at a job or being “committed to the mission”
Another academic librarian* November 10, 2024 at 8:29 am Huge project at work completed with lots of positive feedback. whoo hoo!
The Most Anonymous* November 8, 2024 at 11:04 am Looking for perspective from those with federal jobs. I’m considering applying for a position with the US Patent Office, but given incoming administration, I wonder if that’s wise. Are there concerns about the USPTO being negatively impacted? Is it wise to apply for fed jobs right now? Any insight would be much appreciated.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:06 am I think the USPTO is very low on the radar. The main areas I would stay away from is the DOJ, IRS, CBP, and EPA. USPTO is run by the department of commerce.
Cyndi* November 8, 2024 at 11:19 am From 2017-19 I worked in a job that was private sector but consisted entirely of admin work contracted out from USCIS, and it was a nightmare because of constant wild swings in policy. I would avoid anything immigration-related.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:21 am I’m an import broker for over a decade dealing directly with tariff laws. It wasn’t a fun 4 years and I’m not looking forward to the next.
Busy Middle Manager* November 8, 2024 at 12:06 pm Can I ask, what type of issues does this created? Curious, that’s all, since I used to work with loads of tax rates and types of taxes at my last job, it all gets built into a software that you need to audit, but on a day-to-day basis, it doesn’t create much extra work. I was assuming tariffs work the same as any tax would or are there other issues I am not thinking of? (for example I saw on reddit that tariffs led some companies to panic-buy before they went into effect)
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 12:34 pm The main issue was implementation. In 2017-2018, there was sometimes only a week for CBP/broker software programmers to get the changes made so the correct new China duties would show up when you were keying in the customs clearance data before submitting electronically to CBP. The other issue was panicking customers. They would hear something on the news and you’d arrive in the office the next morning to many emails/voice mails, plus phone calls as you’re walking in the door. They’d want info, but we had nothing. There were also issues with importers trying to get around paying the additional China duty. A customer of mine wanted me to commit fraud by using a different tariff number that wasn’t subject to the China duty, a different one than they had been using for more than a decade. Since I refused, they went to another broker, who had no issues with it. After about 6 months, they came back to the company I was working for. CBP was soon asking for documents, etc. Importer ended up with a million dollar fine and no longer imports. Nearly put the company out of business. I am very alert to importers trying to get around the current China duties as a result. Although if across the board duties for ALL China origin shipments are enacted with the new administration, that means fraud will be less. With the current China additional duties, some things, such as children’s toys, etc., are not subject to these additional duties. This additional stuff makes work as a broker much more stressful.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 1:09 pm Ooooh, yes, the tariff changing and fraud. And also suddenly trying to claim it came from Vietnam or Thailand or something when it didn’t. But just the tariff changes required us to sit with them and talk through their actual classification, then half of them call us liars or imply we don’t know what we’re talking about, and then they get caught because it’s basically free money for the govt to go after them and the govt can spot a pattern! They have algorithms for that!
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 1:18 pm Yep! I forgot to include that once the cheating CBP customer came back to my company, we were using the tariff number they had always used.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 12:35 pm So, everyone who imports has a bond issued by a surety (insurance company) that covers your imports up to a certain amount of value+taxes. If you don’t pay the government, or have a penalty you don’t pay, or various other things, the govt goes after your bond company to pay on your behalf. However, it’s kind of like a credit card, in that it has a limit. if you import more than your limit, you need a new one with a higher limit. What we saw in the first round of tariffs was a ton of bond saturations (hitting your limit) and requiring multiple new bonds because +25% to your cost of item is a lot. Secondly, cash flow issues. +25% is a lot of money to suddenly come up with, and you have to pay the government within 10 days of the item coming into the country. (However actual payment date is usually at 8 days in case you need to correct something.) You’re paying this before anything gets sold, in most cases, and that’s a lot of extra cash to cough up suddenly on items you haven’t sold or used yet. It hit small businesses hard. This caused serious cash flow issues for both the businesses we were serving and the broker firms themselves as we struggled to get paid. Another issue I saw from a couple customers – they sold their items locked into a contract price, particularly if they are selling to major retailers like Walmart. Walmart did not allow the price to change due to the tariffs if they were already locked in for the time period. So sellers just had to eat that 25% out of their profit until they could recontract. Finally, a lot of the big manufacturers had invested heavily into owning or contracting with specific plants in China. They didn’t have the option to pivot their manufacturing that quickly or easily. It’s not just that we had to do a lot of work doing the entries themselves, but our clients, the importers, had a lot of serious issues that we had to work through with them. And those are just the ones that came to mind quickly.
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 12:47 pm God, I forgot about the bond issues. So, so many bonds were declared insufficient by CBP in the first months after the 2017-18 China tariffs went into effect. Ugh.
Busy Middle Manager* November 8, 2024 at 2:18 pm oh these are all good answers. Thank you! I had just pictured you guys doing the “paperwork” part, but now see you were inundated with customer questions and last minute changes that were PITAs
Hlao-roo* November 8, 2024 at 1:09 pm Thanks Busy Middle Manager for asking and Tradd and Tio for answering! I have learned a lot about tariffs (and imports in general) from your posts.
ChemistryChick* November 8, 2024 at 1:48 pm Yes, same! I would love to see an AAM “ask a customs broker/importer” type post to learn more. It’s fascinating.
Hillary* November 8, 2024 at 1:31 pm On the importer side we spent months figuring out the financial impact then years redesigning our supply chain. Things like product going from China to Canada doesn’t go through the US anymore* or adding second manufacturing locations overseas because of China’s retaliatory tariffs. *Yes, we could have done it in bond or done duty drawback but it was more effective to just ship it to one of our Canadian locations.
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 1:35 pm I had a few customers that imported things from China that couldn’t be sourced from any other country OR that were still cheaper from China even with 25% additional duty on top. Duty drawback makes my head hurt and I do ITs daily for cargo transiting the US to MX.
Hillary* November 8, 2024 at 1:55 pm @Tradd, we had some of that too. It was a bit easier because it was a global manufacturer and we had lots of options. Figuring it out was 90% of the supply chain finance guy’s job for months.
Emmy* November 8, 2024 at 11:29 pm i’m a USCIS officer. i absolutely love my job and was in line for a promotion when this happened. now we have no idea what they’ll do to us. i feel we’ll probably be punished for reducing the length of time it took to get applications approved. i expect them to gut our entire senior leadership on day 1 as far down as they can go and rip up every policy implemented the last 4 years so that we’re mired in chaos and can’t process any applications for as long as they can legally stop us doing so.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:19 am And in fact, infringing on patent/trademark is one of the big reasons we have to fight with China. It would be in the administration’s self interest not to eliminate that. That said, the government as a whole may come up against funding issues in the next four years, so that is a bit of an overhead strike against it.
Anax* November 8, 2024 at 12:25 pm Feeling it. My job involves paperwork to wrap up the COVID response, and… oof. I’m nervous. I really, really don’t want to have to job hunt again.
not nice, don't care* November 8, 2024 at 1:01 pm I imagine FEMA will be weaponized at the first disaster. Party loyalists only kind of thing, hired to deny aid to blue states.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 3:18 pm I would expect first to see more of a cutback on external FEMA aid, such as the partner countries, but the internal parts of FEMA that are probably most at risk are disaster responses to non-weather. Didn’t they cut a bunch of FEMA disease control plans/supplies right before the pandemic?
Anax* November 8, 2024 at 9:09 pm They absolutely did. Oof. Hopefully I’m able to pivot to a different part of my current workplace – I’ve been doing really well and getting a lot of praise, but if FEMA’s budget is cut badly… Well. Hopefully I’ve been impressive enough that I get an internal transfer.
online millenial* November 8, 2024 at 11:13 am Avoid DOE and any science-based orgs as well. I don’t expect NOAA and NWS to survive next year. I hate it here.
Keladry of Mindelan* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am Oof. In my heart of hearts, I knew those things already, but seeing them in black and white hurts. Any thoughts on DOJ–specifically OVW and other violence prevention initiatives? Also, re: “I hate it here”–if you’re a swiftie online millenial, perhaps you’d like to join me in the secret gardens in Taylor Swift’s mind? I hear it’s much nicer there.
Dinwar* November 8, 2024 at 11:33 am NOAA and NWS do work for firms far too important to simply abandon. Shipping companies, for example, absolutely need to know what the weather will be like tomorrow. There are also military aspects involved, including communications. You also have fisheries and oil that rely heavily on the information provided by these organizations, and these include some pretty powerful lobbies. Land-based transportation and a lot of infrastructure relies on the NWS as well–knowing when storms will hit allows them to deploy assets effectively, which minimizes downtime (and voters who are left stranded in the heat/cold for days on end tend to become cranky). Maybe these roles will be migrated to a more streamlined group (which wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing). But I don’t think anyone’s going to let these institutions be totally eliminated.
Ruthie* November 8, 2024 at 11:56 am As a NOAA employee, I sure hope you are right. But my fear is that the new administration will listen to those critics that have always said that forecasting should be done by private companies. Weather and oceans *should* be non-controversial and non-partisan, but we live in strange times right now.
Dinwar* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm The problem is, even if we want to transfer this to private companies, the military still needs the infrastructure. It’s like highways–an argument can be made that it should be done privately, or at the state level, or whatever, except that we need to get tanks and jeeps and ammo and personnel to their points of departure, so we need the highways anyway. And we saw what relying on private infrastructure companies does in Ukraine. Musk resisted disallowing Russian use of Starlink for a while, then tried to shut down Ukrainian use, on the grounds that a private company shouldn’t be involved in an armed conflict in another nation. He rather quickly found out that whether you’re private or not, once you become part of military infrastructure you don’t get to say “I don’t want to do this” anymore.
Ruthie* November 8, 2024 at 12:02 pm I meant to add that USPTO should be fine. That’s a function that can’t be done by private industry, and is really critical for businesses and innovation. I’ve worked with some fantastic people from USPTO since we’re all part of the Dept of Commerce. Good luck with your application!
kt* November 8, 2024 at 12:08 pm There is an option between status quo and elimination: privatization. With the tech and space industries’, hm, contributions to the new admin’s successful election effort, it would not be unreasonable to expect privatization or monetization instead. A privatization effort started in the VA in the first administration and now consumes a significant portion of the yearly budget. (For examples in two different directions, look at the Cerner contract and Care in the Community spending.) Spending more to get the same services privately rather than via gov’t employees is a win for big business.
Dinwar* November 8, 2024 at 2:14 pm Right up to the point where China’s satellite-killing battleships start doing what they do, anyway. And I have serious doubts about Starlink’s ability to openly defy major military pressure in the USA and Europe (who have even greater capacity to shut down satellite communications). He’s provided a useful piece of infrastructure, but that comes at significant political risks that now need to be carefully balanced. Screw up and the whole thing gets nationalized.
Rex Libris* November 8, 2024 at 3:41 pm It’s incredibly depressing to look at an astronomy app like Stellarium and watch it tracking how much crap Elon Musk has shot into space.
A reader among many* November 10, 2024 at 7:15 pm @Dinwar, I don’t think that MAGA works that way. Just a month ago, right-wing social media blew up with conspiracy theories about weather control and hurricanes that the government purportedly sent to strike Republican parts of the country. They neither know nor care that these agencies have critical, irreplaceable functions. They do not understand how anything works, but they’re angry and paranoid, and meteorologists reported receiving death threats. NOAA and NWS have both been mentioned as organizations that should be on the chopping block, and the fact that chopping them will hurt America is absolutely beside the point.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:42 am And Dept of Education and HHS likely but probably lots at DHS
Rainy* November 8, 2024 at 12:57 pm That’ll be jarring for my dad and brother-in-law, both disabled vets who think Trump is awesome. I’ve already told my husband that when my FIL inevitably tries to corner me as he did 8 years ago and scream about how much he hates (insert female politician here–he’s not picky) that unlike last time when I tried to be the bigger person and just get out of the situation, this time I’m going to punch him.
Seashell* November 8, 2024 at 1:21 pm How about this instead of punching: “FIL, I’m sure the feeling is mutual.”
Rainy* November 8, 2024 at 1:56 pm Nah, I’ve put up with enough from him. The next time he f***s around, he’s gonna find out.
Panicked* November 8, 2024 at 4:27 pm I do not advocate for violence. However, if anyone gets in my face, I will do what it takes to get out of the situation. If a person’s smug, angry face is in the way, that’s their problem. I’ve told my daughter to do the same. We are not shrinking violets.
Seashell* November 10, 2024 at 9:35 am As long as the person isn’t preventing you from moving, just walk away. Punching someone for being smug is still a crime. It doesn’t make you a shrinking violet to try to stay out of jail.
noncomitally anonymous* November 8, 2024 at 12:48 pm NIH and NSF used to have strong bipartisan support. Not anymore. I’m concerned for my friends in those agencies.
Fluff* November 8, 2024 at 5:51 pm NOAA and NWS ought to be safe. Florida and even Texas need them and the major wealthy government folks life there.
Reluctant Mezzo* November 8, 2024 at 7:54 pm No, NOAA will be privatized, one of Trump’s buddies owns a weather service.
Double A* November 8, 2024 at 11:23 am You’re going to get a lot of doom and gloom responses. I don’t know anything about this personally, but can I suggest you only pay attention to the ones that have solid evidence or personal experience. I’m as worried about the incoming administration as anyone, but good people jumping ship or avoiding working for the government is not the solution. Obviously people need to protect themselves, but insiders are going to be crucial for getting through…forever.
LyraB* November 8, 2024 at 1:47 pm I agree. I don’t think there’s going to be nay reliably safe port in the storm for the next four years, and maybe longer if effective opposition is not mobilized. If you are able to stay in and do your job with integrity for as long as possible, you will be doing a really important service
CL* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am Family member retired from USPTO many years ago so things may have changed. My understanding is that it’s one of few government operations that is mostly self sufficient in terms of funding. As others have said, it’s probably also low on the radar of the incoming administration. Overall, however, I would avoid federal jobs until things stabilize.
Venus* November 8, 2024 at 3:52 pm Yes, government patent offices are self-funded through fees so of all the jobs it is one of the safest.
B.K. Lee* November 8, 2024 at 11:54 am I work for the VA. You should probably be fine over at USPTO. It doesn’t seem high on the incoming administration’s list of priorities, so hopefully nothing drastically will change over there.
Roscoe da Cat* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am USPTO is almost entirely supported by the fees they charge so funding issues rarely affect them. Also, they have legislation for their remote work so any other changes probably won’t affect them. I would argue they are one of the lower political places to work since they are non-controversial and not part of the federal budget.
Grits McGee* November 8, 2024 at 12:29 pm I’m a current Fed- I’ll echo others that at the moment USPTO is less likely to be subject to the same kinds of impacts as other agencies. I’ll warn you though that that can change on a dime. I work for an explicitly nonpartisan agency that expended tons of effort under the previous Trump administration to stay under the radar, but got pulled into a political scandal not of our own making and is now potentially a target for retribution. You will be affected by government-wide policies though, like hiring freezes, reduction/elimination of telework, pay freezes, etc. I would go ahead and apply and see what happens. It’s much easier to get out of federal service than it is to get in, if things become intolerable.
Policy Wonk* November 8, 2024 at 12:34 pm It takes a long time to fill government jobs, and there was a hiring freeze imposed at the beginning of the last Trump Administration, so go ahead and apply but don’t expect anything to come of it. As others have noted, government is a good place to work, but we expect tight budgets going forward.
Mad Scientist* November 8, 2024 at 3:58 pm Does the hiring freeze include if you’ve already accepted but haven’t started yet?
Quietly Worried* November 8, 2024 at 1:10 pm What do you think the chances are of already-accepted positions (non-patient care healthcare civilian DOD) with a February start date being canceled? We’ll be moving cross-country, and now I’m wondering if that’s a bad idea.
Mad Scientist* November 8, 2024 at 2:14 pm I’m in a similar boat. Final offer landed in my email inbox the morning after election day. I accepted with a heavy heart. I’ll be moving across the country as well. Anything is possible but I doubt our positions will be cancelled before we start. The question is really how long we’ll be able to stay.
Quietly Worried* November 8, 2024 at 8:13 pm I don’t know about for you, but I think being laid off soon after moving would be way worse than knowing before moving.
YetAnotherFedContractor* November 8, 2024 at 1:22 pm I used to work at USPTO before I burned out and was let go (so take what I say with a large grain of salt). Some considerations: 1) politics of intellectual property is not quite strictly Red/Blue (the joke in the IP community is that the far left doesn’t believe in property and the far right doesn’t believe in intellectuals). So some unusual alliances as compared to the rest of politics. A lot more business Republicans as opposed to religious Republicans. 2) probably more pressure on the trademark side of the Office to give the customers whatever they want regardless of what the law actually is (although trademark law is a lot more squishy than patent law). 3) the examination corps is a sweatshop and the turnover rate for new employees is high due to production quotas. It is currently unionized but in my opinion the patent examiners union is far too inclined to go along with management. The joke was that USPTO is a great place to work so long as you aren’t an examiner. My advice would be to check out the available jobs and switch out of examining as quickly as possible (or go back to the private sector, the revolving door at USPTO is real). They are hiring a lot of people because of retirement due to the boomers aging out and the new patent classification system (basically going to the international system which means that the patent examiners can’t sort and find the prior art quickly enough; it was like having your drunken uncle come into your tool shed and rearrange everything while he’s on a bender). And there will always be a backlog of cases to be examined, so if you can keep up with the production goals, you will always have something to work on.
Just a name* November 8, 2024 at 1:24 pm USPTO is funded by the fees it charges its customers, not by a congressional appropriation. It rarely has issues but Congress does threaten to raid its fee pool to fund other things occasionally. They have a very liberal telework program.
NotAnotherManager!* November 8, 2024 at 6:21 pm I would be less concerned about elimination as the re-implementation of the executive order creating Schedule F, which converts a lot of government jobs to basically at-will employment so that career civil service can be fired and replaced with party loyalists. It theoretically should only apply to policy-based positions, but OMB tried to implement it before Biden repealed the order and was going to reclassify nearly 70% of their staff as Schedule F, including admin assistants and IT. The Heritage Foundation already has a candidate database of loyalists to start replacing the federal workforce.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:06 am For those looking for work I hope soon you find a great new job that pays well and has great colleagues! Good luck in interviews!
Paint N Drip* November 8, 2024 at 12:30 pm This morning I wrapped up an application for a job that I couldn’t have drafted up in my dreams – crossing all the fingers! Hope everyone else is having good luck finding great jobs and sailing through the interviews :)
Annie Edison* November 8, 2024 at 2:49 pm Thank you!! I’ve been job hunting for a few months and feeling a bit demoralized- I appreciate the good vibes! I’ve got an interview today so trying to keep my hopes up
Procedure Publisher* November 8, 2024 at 6:40 pm I’m waiting for news about a position that I made it to the final stage. No word yet, but I’m starting to feel like I’m not selected.
English Rose* November 8, 2024 at 11:06 am Out of hours emails – there are sometimes discussions on this site around whether to respond to or to send emails late at night. I recently received an email from a CEO in our industry which included the following wording after the email message itself, and thought it was an excellent example on many levels: “I choose to work flexibly and I’m sending this email now because it suits how I achieve a work/life balance. So I don’t expect that you will read, respond or action this email outside of normal working hours”
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:10 am I see this type of wording on many of my company colleagues’s emails and on my external colleagues’ too. I like this a lot!!!
access specialist* November 8, 2024 at 11:23 am Email signatures at my company contain the following text: Note: My working day may not be your working day. Please don’t feel obliged to reply to this email outside of your normal working hours.
used to be a tester* November 8, 2024 at 11:34 am Our senior management use something like this: Receiving this email outside normal working hours? Managing work and life responsibilities is unique for everyone. I have sent this this e-mail at a time that works for me. Please respond at a time that works for you.
Harlowe* November 8, 2024 at 11:47 am We have a standard footer we are encouraged to use: “At Company we work across many time zones. While it suits me to e-mail now, I do not expect a reply outside your own working hours.”
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am I borrowed something similar from a colleague for my email. I also try to remember to use the delay delivery option so I’m not pinging people late at night just because that’s when I’m catching up on email, although I don’t want to create a huge burst at 8am the next day either so I spread out the delivery times.
Dinwar* November 8, 2024 at 12:03 pm I’ve done something similar. I get insomnia (migraines are lovely), and sometimes I’ve done work while I couldn’t sleep. I’ve learned to add “No need for a quick response–answer at your convenience” or the like, and emphasized this when I spoke with the folks onsite the next day.
Stanley steamers* November 8, 2024 at 1:39 pm I’ve come across a few of these and honestly I find them a little patronizing for some reason.
anonymous anteater* November 8, 2024 at 2:52 pm can you say more about that? Do you feel like this is already the norm where you work, and should go without saying? Or do you feel like this is lip-service in a place that expects responsiveness at all hours? (that’s when the disclaimer probably would really get my hackles up!)
HSE Compliance* November 8, 2024 at 4:21 pm I agree, but I suspect that (in my case) the people that have used them that I’ve interacted with have been those that expect an immediate response. Limited anecdata, I will freely admit. I think for me it’s also the “I choose to work flexibly” part that comes across a little oddly for reasons I can’t quite explain.
Lady Sally* November 8, 2024 at 10:00 pm I agree. I would like to use it, as I work a lot of odd hours and don’t expect my team to respond when they’re not working, but I also struggle with putting it in email (I do convey verbally at times). I think it’s that I don’t want to imply- “I work harder than you, but I don’t expect you to be at my level of dedication.” I know that’s not the intention, but I believe that’s why I struggle with it.
kalli* November 8, 2024 at 1:51 pm On top of this, at my current work most people flat out put ‘do not read until you’re working’/’do not read until 9am Monday’/’don’t have to read until you’re at work’ or similar in the subject since half everyone is usually working outside business hours on deep focus or short-notice deadline work, and that way they don’t have to open or preview the email to see if it’s relevant or not, especially as one person might be clearing out their emails while waiting for a response from the other and sending requests even on the same file but on different tasks.
DJ* November 8, 2024 at 5:12 pm Yes I’ve seen this a lot especially since WFH became more commonplace in 2020. I like it too as it respects both sides, the email writer’s right to work when it suits them and the receiver’s right to respond in their working hours rather than outside of these.
CatMintCat* November 9, 2024 at 6:15 pm My Principal does this – and we all know from talking to him that he’s a nightowl who gets by with very little sleep so 2am emails are common. He doesn’t expect a response until we get to work, though. That said, one of my life goals is to respond to a 2am email in real time.
Cocobolo Desk* November 8, 2024 at 11:07 am Resume advice, please. I am updating my resume to incorporate Alison’s advice and list accomplishments, not just tasks. I took over a position where the predecessor had been in place for over thirty years. I have made many changes, massively revamping many of the existing ways things were handled. My manager and I started a lot of new outreach that had not been done in the past. Everything had been handled the same way for decades, relying on a very cumbersome and old FileMaker Pro system that was set up to spit out various forms and lists. There were other processes that were handled very inefficiently rather than utilizing new systems. I created a knowledge base using an existing software resource to provide our clients with information to prepare to use our services. I created customized calendars for various categories of stakeholders. I streamlined many functions. I implemented a lot of changes that add value for our clients or that showcase the value we offer for potential clients. I have made a lot of changes that incorporate checks to avoid costly errors (time and/or money). When I try to list my accomplishments, underscoring almost EVERYTHING is the thought, “Well, Esmerelda was here for THIRTY YEARS, so it isn’t like you are being particularly innovative, you are just updating incredibly ancient processes.” I feel like I am trying to take vast amounts of credit…. for essentially adding indoor plumbing to my house. Any thoughts?
Cheeruson* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am But you did add indoor plumbing, yes? And those updates could have been accomplished before you, but it took you to initiate and complete them, so all credit and hail to you. Fly your own flag proudly.
Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd* November 8, 2024 at 11:39 am Esmerelda was there for 30 years but seems not to have initiated any change or innovation in that time. It’s not like you start a job and then things have to be frozen in time until you leave… The examples you’ve given are very valid and resume-worthy accomplishments (part of innovating isn’t really about the innovation itself but also the stuff that goes around it: getting buy-in for the change, assessing options, migrating the data, etc).
bamcheeks* November 8, 2024 at 11:42 am Adding indoor plumbing is not a minor job! I mean, it doesn’t necessarily show enormous innovation and the development of cutting edge technology, but it certainly shows ability to take on a big task and carry it through to completion.
TechWorker* November 8, 2024 at 11:46 am I mean if you hired a plumber for a house with no plumbing & they did a good job you’d still recommend them as a plumber. Indeed if they came in and installed a fancy smart home system it would be useless without the basic indoor plumbing for it to work on & they’d be quite a bad plumber… you can be prepared in interview to talk about what you’d do next, but it’s certainly a valuable skill to be able to come into an area, assess what is most critical to improve & get that shit done ;)
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 11:50 am Updating a 30 year old system is a monumental pain in the arse and a tremendous amount of work. That’s absolutely an accomplishment! Most businesses don’t need innovation the sort of innovation that is writing a whole new software. Most need the sort of small innovations that come along with “hey, our invoicing software is way out of date, what’s the smoothest way to transition it that’ll be effective for both us and our customers”.
Leaving academia* November 8, 2024 at 12:04 pm I’m also having self doubt type issues around updating my resume! It’s fine to think “of course these policies needed updating,” but you still are the one who did it! They could have been updated by someone else, but they were updated by you.
Rook* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm Adding indoor plumbing to an existing structure is a huge undertaking, though! Those absolutely sound like resume-worthy accomplishments. Just because you’re not the first to do something doesn’t mean you aren’t making changes that will be helpful and important :)
TheGirlintheAfternoon* November 8, 2024 at 12:11 pm I do a LOT of resume review in my current job, and if you told me you did all of this and it WASN’T reflected on your resume, I would start re-writing it on the spot. Modernizing an entire office’s worth of systems to reflect current best practices is not a small task!
Busy Middle Manager* November 8, 2024 at 12:13 pm This is interesting, I think you’re onto something. If I was still a hiring manager and got a resume from someone who was saying things like “switched to digital mailings” or “created customer databases” in the 2020s, I’d think they were out of touch at worst, or simply don’t have up to date skills at best. You absolutely need to come up with some accomplishment that is a bit more technical/requires the most up to date skills, then give that more space on your resume! Can you also hint at things being out-of-date in your resume? Hopefully it clearly says “revamped out-of-date processes” This is also a case where cover letters are great, despite the internet hating them. You can drop a line about wanting to work on more modern initiatives or more complicates issues
Drought* November 8, 2024 at 1:31 pm Couple of things I’ve learned in my 30’s: Own your accomplishments. Don’t tell on yourself. Don’t be humble for the sake of it. In your case that looks like saying something like: Increased client retention 15% and purchases 25% by streamlining deliverable communication using calendly. And not fudging it up like: Assisted in implementing the improvement to client communication by using calendly.
Jennifer @unchartedworlds* November 8, 2024 at 1:46 pm I think you could maybe address that by framing it with a sub-heading which indicates the context. Not saying this is the actual language, but in a shape like “Implemented replacements for old systems: A replacing B C replacing D” etc. That combined with the timescale would indicate that they weren’t your old systems being superseded.
Distractinator* November 8, 2024 at 12:27 pm You not only updated all the systems, you evaluated the old ones, used your modern strategic knowledge to suggest potential improvements, identified all feasible areas for upgrade, prioritized the action list based on ease of implementation and amount of impact, and then made everything happen. It’s not about whether you enabled something nobody else could have imagined doing, it’s about the fact that you actually did it, AND did it well, and as previously stated, there are lots of subtasks embedded there, that are definitely worth bragging about.
WantonSeedStitch* November 8, 2024 at 12:42 pm Honestly, updating incredibly ancient processes is a huge accomplishment, and it’s sometimes harder to do that than it is to innovate when you’re somewhere that’s already operating with modern practices, policies, and procedures. Things get ENTRENCHED. You need to be able to see things holistically: it’s not adding indoor plumbing to a house, it’s a gut rehab.
Yes And* November 8, 2024 at 12:47 pm Also don’t underestimate how these accomplishments speak to your change management skills. In most cases like yours, you run into people who insist, “But we use chamber pots here! It’s just how things are done!” Navigating those barriers of inertia and sclerosis is an accomplishment in itself. I’d say the fact that you were bringing indoor plumbing to a company that had resisted it for so long makes your accomplishments MORE impressive, not less.
beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox* November 8, 2024 at 2:08 pm Updating ancient processes — even when the updates are relatively simple or obvious — still generally requires: •Recognizing a change is necessary and possessing the knowledge to know what that change should be •The ability to plan the change process •The ability to implement the changes in a way that isn’t overly disruptive or confusing •Communicating and working with other people and groups to ensure the changes are understood and aren’t making things harder for others A lot more goes into these sorts of changes than just flipping a switch — as I’m sure you know! Definitely list those changes and any resulting efficiency improvements!
Just my thoughts* November 8, 2024 at 2:09 pm You can definitely use these. As an example: Spearheaded Transition and Modernization: Successfully assumed responsibilities from a predecessor with over 30 years of tenure, introducing innovative solutions and modern workflows to enhance efficiency and service delivery. Revamped Legacy Systems: Replaced outdated FileMaker Pro processes with streamlined, efficient systems, drastically reducing time spent on form generation and client documentation. Customized Stakeholder Calendars: Created tailored calendar solutions for various categories of stakeholders, improving organization and communication across teams.
Na$ty Larry* November 8, 2024 at 5:16 pm Can you quantify in some way the time and/or money saved by chance and list something like Modernized internal processes to increase efficiency by x% or y% savings? Also — nobody needs to know the extent to which the processes were out of date in your resume! That’s something you can think about how to talk about in more detail when asked in your interview. Sometimes it really takes an outsider coming in to shake things up and make your business better and being the type of person who can convince their boss to make necessary changes is a good thing!!
Cocobolo Desk* November 8, 2024 at 7:59 pm Popping back in to thank you all for the kind and thoughtful perspective. I love this community.
Anne Elliot* November 8, 2024 at 11:08 am How much do people actually work? I work remotely and give myself 1 hour per day to do not-work (the equivalent of a lunch break), usually spread out in small chunks… 5 minutes to zone out/doodle, 10 minutes to read Ask a Manager, etc. When these small breaks add up to more than an hour, or when it’s 3pm on a Friday and I really don’t feel like working, I take less time off the next work day to make up for it or I use some of my “Sick/Personal” time off to cover it. But recently a few of my friends mentioned that when they have a slow Friday, they don’t make up/cover the time. Am I being needlessly scrupulous? When we say that most white-collar workers work 8 hours with a 1-hour lunch, how much of that 7 hours is actual work?
Magda* November 8, 2024 at 11:10 am If you put in like 3-4 solid hours of work in a day, I wouldn’t use any PTO or make the time up. In my role, a lot of my time is either a) mulling things over or b) being available to respond to things if they come up. That doesn’t necessarily “look” like working in that I’m typing into my computer, but the org made the decision to bring on a full time person to cover the role.
FricketyFrack* November 8, 2024 at 11:38 am This is my outlook on it – there are days where there really isn’t anything to do. Occasionally there will be a project with no deadline that I can work on in slow times, but sometimes my job is just to be available if anything does come in, and I never get into anything I can’t immediately drop, but I also don’t feel the need to make up those hours.
Emerald 777* November 8, 2024 at 12:55 pm I own a store/repair centre and it’s expecially true. There are days when there is almost nothing to do (few customers and few repairs, the store is clean and the merchandise is on the shelves, no admin work etc) and days where there isn’t even time to breathe. I think you are too scrupolous, since I guess even in those short breaks you can still be contacted.
AvonLady Barksdale* November 8, 2024 at 11:13 am This is very job/company/position dependent. I am pretty senior and can make my own schedule for the most part, and sometimes days are slow so I don’t work much. I don’t make up the time– I’m paid to be available and responsive, and I’m also paid for my expertise. Sometimes I will stay at my desk later if I have a midday doctor’s appointment or something, but unless something is pressing that’s not necessary. As long as I meet my timelines (which I have a say in setting), no one is monitoring my schedule. It was different when I was more junior. I felt like I had to be busy most of the day. But in my role, which is pretty reactive, sometimes you just have a slow day, and as long as I’m at my desk, I’m not concerned about making up any time.
Red Reader the Adulting Fairy* November 8, 2024 at 11:15 am Our official policy for salaried folk is that as long as you work five hours in a day, the rest of the day doesn’t have to be made up, with the caveat that of course your overall work level still has to be up to expectations and you can’t literally peace out after five hours every day. (It’s unlikely that a full time employee COULD successfully do the work of a full time job, at least in my department, if they were only working 25 hours a week.) So if I have a slow day or an appointment every once in a while, I don’t worry about it.
ThatGirl* November 8, 2024 at 11:16 am It really depends on the week for me. I’ve given myself a little more grace this week, and I also don’t have as much going on. For salaried/non-hourly positions, my calculus is this: – am I meeting deadlines? – is anyone else dependent on me getting something done? – am I responsive to emails and Teams messages within a reasonable amount of time? If I can say yes/no/yes to those, then I allow myself some slack. I wouldn’t take PTO for small breaks or quiet Friday afternoons.
Ama* November 8, 2024 at 1:57 pm When I was full time remote that was pretty much my calculus. I also figured the weeks that I maybe wasn’t 100% focused on work for 7 hours each day evened out with the weeks that I worked 9 or 10 hours a day and shortened my lunch to get a bunch of time-sensitive work done. I only took PTO if I wanted to completely disconnect from work and not answer any Teams/emails.
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 11:17 am I’m in the office 8-5, with one hour unpaid lunch. Those 8-5 hours are required. There’s always something to do. We are not remote or hybrid. I hear people talking about even in-office jobs where they can come and go, and I’m just amazed.
ThatGirl* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm Some of us have boring computer-based jobs with deadlines that are mostly not urgent. There’s a huge variety of jobs out there.
Bitte Meddler* November 8, 2024 at 2:01 pm Yeah, mine is an exciting [to me] computer-based job with deliverables and deadlines, and as long as I meet those, it doesn’t matter when or where I do the work. Note: I *do* need to meet with people to get 30-40% of my work done, and that needs to be during their normal business hours. I work with people across 11 time zones, so I inherently need to be flexible in my work hours.
English Rose* November 8, 2024 at 11:18 am I think of it as what are reasonable results rather than specific time chunks. As Magda says, ‘mulling’ time isn’t necessarily productive in the moment, but valuable. And I’m guessing most of us have work ideas when we’re not in working hours. Sometimes when that happens I’ll jot down the idea and spend a bit of non-work time thinking about it. So long as our work output is good, that’s the main thing.
Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)* November 8, 2024 at 11:19 am Largely depends upon the work! If I’m having to wade through code or logs then I’ll take more breaks than if the call queue is flooded and the servers are down. If it’s a Q day (do not use the quiet word out loud in IT) then by all means have more downtime and I don’t believe you need to make up the hours at all. But don’t neglect your breaks. Your brain needs them!
Nonsense* November 8, 2024 at 11:20 am I definitely don’t put in 40, and I think most decent workplaces realize that. I always make sure I’m available and I keep my laptop near me when I’m home, but on slow days… well, I started some sourdough this morning. I’ve taken midday naps and showers before. Back in the worst of Covid we had a virtual conference and I booted that up on my laptop and played Civ VI on my personal computer. I’m salary, but we charge to projects so I do have to account for my hours each week. The thing is, I know our project hours are inflated, our clients know our project hours are inflated, and most importantly of all, when I’m working those projects, I’m both quick and good. People are not productive for 8 hours straight in a day – we’ve got decades of research supporting that by now. Me taking an hour on a Friday to mix up some sourdough helps reset my mind and approach my work with a clearer head to churn out a better product.
Socks* November 8, 2024 at 11:27 am Definitely ease up on yourself! A few short breaks here and there PLUS your lunch time is perfectly normal.
OrdinaryJoe* November 8, 2024 at 11:31 am I’d say I work, during a normal week with no deadlines or major issues, a solid 30 hours even though I’m ‘full time’. Based on conversations with friends, that seems in the norm. I don’t put down the missing 10 hrs and figure I make up for it when I do work over, weekends, travel time (I fly 2-3 times a month), etc. I make all my deadlines, keep all the balls in the air, and week to week, that doesn’t require 40 hrs :-) It also helps that I work from home so laundry, grocery shopping, general clean up, stuff I can stop easily and check emails or answer calls.
Mockingjay* November 8, 2024 at 12:58 pm I’m similar, remote and full-time. (There was a very interesting thread a year or two ago about how much work people actually do and the ethics of doing more or less; I’ll try to find the link.) I’m older and experienced (nearing retirement), so I finish routine tasks in a lot less time that it takes junior colleagues to do. But I’m also on-call to handle complex projects and issues; those weeks I’m easily 40+ hours. Do I pitch in for overflow tasks and to assist my teammates? Of course. But I also have to keep some slack so I’m available for the pop-up problem projects.
Caramel & Cheddar* November 8, 2024 at 11:35 am I agree with everyone else that it depends on your work load, but I’d say you’re being needlessly scrupulous. If you were in the office, I assume you wouldn’t be asking yourself if you should be making up the 10 minutes you talked to Gene about his fly fishing or the 5 minutes you spent walking to the kitchen on the other end of the building just because you took an hour for lunch. I think there are also studies out there that show that 7hrs is well over the maximum amount of time you can spend and still be productive, so I think that’s another reason not to nickle and dime yourself on how you spend your time.
Anne Elliot* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm My last job was hybrid and I did track those sorts of things! Time talking to a coworker I didn’t count against my lunch hour, but time in the kitchen by myself I did track. However, my last job was consulting and we had to bill in 15-minute increments, so that was a big reason I was so careful. From everyone else’s responses, I think that maybe got into my head a bit.
Paige Danger* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am No advice, just wanted to say that it’s so refreshing to hear perspectives from white-collar workers who are not in consulting-type jobs. I have only ever worked in consulting since starting my career, because that’s where most of the jobs are in my profession, and it’s easy to forget that not all office jobs are like this. (A paid 1-hour lunch break? That’s included in your 8-hour workday?? Unthinkable!) Even though I’m technically salaried, I’m expected to charge 40 hours per week to projects (or training, or overhead tasks etc.) and use PTO or make up time missed for any appointments.
Jen* November 8, 2024 at 11:38 am How do people handle this when hours get billed directly, or when all your work is project work with a set time budget? In my previous job this was a huge source of stress for me, because I felt I did have to make up anything but very short breaks, and I never really figured out what the solution was supposed to be.
Generic Name* November 8, 2024 at 11:51 am The solution is to work more than 40 hours routinely, go to “part time” so you can actually work 40 hours, or get out of consulting. (I was a consultant for 15 years)
kalli* November 8, 2024 at 2:24 pm Smaller units – if you’re billing in 6 minute units and take a 6 minute break, then that hour is 9 units. It can also help to have set ‘relative’ amounts for specific tasks, like 1 unit = 1/4 page or 11 lines; this form is 10 units for preparation etc, because then you can budget those and delegate them or go ‘this is 10 units’ and if it’s done in 30 minutes that’s 30 minutes left towards breaks.
Bitte Meddler* November 8, 2024 at 4:11 pm At my last company, we pegged our time to the projects we were working on. When I first started, I asked why there wasn’t a space for “Downtime”. The boss told me that those extra hours were baked into the budgeted hours for any given project. So if a project was budgeted 1000 hours for fieldwork, everyone understood that 200 hours would be downtime / non-productive time.
Generic Name* November 8, 2024 at 11:50 am When I was a consultant, I would put in 1 hour of sick time when I had a 1 hour telehealth appointment, for example, because we were expected to bill hours in 15-minute increments, even though we were salaried. Now that I’m salaried in industry (and don’t get any overtime), if I have errands or a doctor appointment, I don’t put in PTO or anything. There are plenty of weeks where I work more than 40, and I’m supporting projects in 4 time zones, which means I can be in meetings/calls from 6:30 am to 6 pm sometimes, so it gets balanced out.
Harlowe* November 8, 2024 at 11:52 am ~60 hours for me. I regularly have meetings spanning up to 14 hours, due to working closely with APAC colleagues (not meaning that I have back-to-back meetings through that entire time, but that I will often have one at 0700 and another at 2000). I work most weekends. I have absolutely no qualms about taking a few hours for a doctor’s appointment, or signing off early on Friday if I get the chance.
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 11:53 am An important part of my job is being responsive to urgent requests or waiting for approvals on things that need to move forward. If I am done with deadlines and “engaged to wait” and monitor for incoming requests, I don’t take PTO or unpaid breaks just because there aren’t any requests coming in. Yes, there is non-deadline driven work I could be doing for training, process improvements, future planning, cleaning out my inbox, etc. But I don’t feel like I have to occupy every single moment as long as I am keeping on top of deadlines & requests, and making reasonable weekly progress on the long-term stuff.
Tea Monk* November 8, 2024 at 11:57 am It depends. I certainly have days where nothing gets done like the time I had covid and only worked an hour a day ( covid lasts too long for sick time, so I’m just considered ‘ working’ if I do anything) but I also have a lot of 10 hour days and uncompensated mandatory fun, so it all works out in the end.
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 11:58 am My schedule is officially work 8 hours and have a 1-hour lunch, meaning it’s a 9-hour day. I block my lunch on my calendar and treat it as a commitment same as any other meeting most days. My time isn’t billable or charged to projects. No one should work straight through for that many hours. If I have a lot of thinking and writing to do I use the pomodoro method: Set a timer, work 25 minutes, take a few minutes. Those minutes could be moving laundry loads over or walking 2-3 brisk laps around my neighborhood loop. While I’m walking I’m still working; my brain is noodling on things and doing some subconscious marinating. I do some of my best writing after a walk, not in the last few minutes before I take it. Those breaks aren’t “not working”–they’re helping me be healthy and effective and able to work. My workload varies enough that sometimes I may be processing less important email in the evening while I’m watching TV with my husband. That’s not “on the clock” time to me, but it takes care of work tasks and helps me give mental permission to cut myself slack when needed. I may also be working late into the evening at times to meet a deadline. My agency would allow me to do “schedule adjust” time to make up for that but I don’t do that in a formal way. I’m salaried and I’m supposed to get the work done. If I have some of those late evenings around a week in which I just don’t have any juice left at 3pm on a Friday, I figure it all comes out in the wash. I don’t fully log off and stop answering email at that point; I do little catch-up things like a required training or organizing electronic files. If I have a lot of those long days I do block an afternoon so no one puts a meeting into that space my brain needs for recovery. I’m also 100% teleworking so I’m not giving time to office socializing that would cut into work hours. As someone else noted, no one would ding you for the hallway chats unless you spent the whole day chatting and didn’t get a reasonable amount of work done.
Anax* November 8, 2024 at 12:29 pm I usually do about 5-6 hours of “actual” work – the rest is naps, knitting breaks, or low-priority stuff like reading through emails. (I nap a lot and I’m grateful for the flexibility; disability is… fun.) On a Friday, I might sometimes only get 2-3 hours of “real” work in, if I’m worn out from the week or things are slow. Work is wildly happy with me, I’m one of the most productive folks on my team, so I don’t feel bad at all. This pace feels sustainable and I’m getting done everything I need to, so… everyone’s happy.
653-CXK* November 8, 2024 at 12:32 pm WFH since 2020…on a regular day, I take an hour lunch, but sometimes I take a five to ten minute sanity break if I’m not extremely busy. On Fridays, I’ve scheduled time to take care of items that have been outstanding, e.g. phone calls, mailings, projects, etc.
653-CXK* November 9, 2024 at 2:30 pm To flesh out the answer more…if I’m working on a project that requires a lot of attention, the work day will be at least six hours plus or minus time to answer emails. If I have meetings that last an hour, it’s five to six hours. If I’m not busy at all, I’ll spend some time updating things, answering emails, etc. which takes about four. Then, there are the sanity breaks. I take about three to five minutes to defocus, and then go back and focus on what I was doing. If there are interruptions during the day, I’ll factor those in too.
Mom of Two Littles* November 8, 2024 at 12:59 pm Hmm my work is cyclical and hybrid so I’d say that during slow times I work 25 hours a week, normal period is 30-35, and busy periods are 40-50. Busy and slow periods are probably the equivalent to eight weeks each per year.
not nice, don't care* November 8, 2024 at 1:07 pm I just ran some stats on an element of my job that lets me average out my workload (that cycles between ‘I could work 24/7 and still be overwhelmed’ and ‘it’s so dead I can’t remember the last time someone submitted a request ticket’. I spend roughly 4.8 hours a day on the core function of my job. I feel pretty good about the remainder going for meetings, projects, and recharging on AAM and other faves. It’s hard to ignore the feeling that I should be full steam all day err day, but seeing numbers helps a lot.
thelettermegan* November 8, 2024 at 1:15 pm back in the old office days, there were always moments and sometimes whole days where even the most productive teams would get pulled into some sort of goofy office-olympics style project just to spontaneously bond, let off steam, find a little motivation, or feel a sense of control. Good managers know when to intercede and when to just order cupcakes and continue the good vibes. Most jobs will also be a combination of ‘time proactively working productively’ and ‘time reacting productively’ – there will be times when the former will be impossible, for whatever reason, but you’ll still be available for the latter, and be providing value. On call time should be paid time.
Mad Harry Crewe* November 8, 2024 at 3:32 pm Yeah exactly. My employer pays for my knowledge and problem-solving skills to be available to my colleagues and to our customers. Sometimes that means I’m answering a bunch of questions. Sometimes that means crickets – but I’m still available if a question or a ticket comes in.
Emperor Kuzco* November 8, 2024 at 1:19 pm I’m in office full time so my experience varies slightly from yours, but there are plenty of days where things are slow so I read AAM, articles related to my field of work, etc. I consider myself being open and available to anyone who needs help as part of my job (I work in IT helpdesk), so even if I’m not really working, I’m still here and ready for work. If that makes sense.
wowzers* November 8, 2024 at 1:24 pm It seems like you are asking about two (or even 3) different things – you say you don’t feel like working and so you use your PTO if you decide you’re done at 3pm on Friday. Your friends are saying if they have a slow day, they don’t make up the time or take PTO. Then you also ask how much work is anyone really doing in 7 hours a day. I’ll leave aside this last one because I think this is a bigger and different question. I think PTO/sick time is for when you do not want to/cannot work and will not be available to work. I do not think PTO/sick time is for when you are available to work, but there is not any work to do. If your job is the kind where you are paid to wait for work (like you monitor an inbox for clients), then yeah – if you are logging off at 3pm and no longer waiting for work, then I’d use PTO. If your job is the kind where workload ebbs and flows, you know what’s waiting to be done, and none if it needs to be done today – then I wouldn’t use PTO for taking off at 3 because if the work ebbs and flows you’ll make up the hours later anyway.
RussianInTexas* November 8, 2024 at 2:02 pm My work is very much dependent on incoming stuff, and sometimes it’s just slow. So I don’t actually work when there is no work. I don’t make it up. It is not my fault there is no work to work. I also do not mark shorter doctor’s appointments or quick errands as “personal” or “out of the office, nor I make them up, unless it’s something like half a day. As long as all my work is done, I do not feel the need. I am remote and salaried.
RussianInTexas* November 8, 2024 at 2:11 pm And it’s actually 8 hours of work + unpaid lunch. 8-12, 1-5. My work, while salaried, makes everyone check in and out, and do the same for lunch. We are required to be present for 40 hours minimum. They don’t track this precisely for the WFH folks, so we can all occasionally run errands. While I was working in the office, I would just browse internet during slow times. So it’s not like I would never get slow times during the office times, nor would I make them up.
kalli* November 8, 2024 at 2:19 pm I’m 0.2FTE but if I start late or I have to take a longer break I make up the time. If I put on my timesheet that I did four hours, then I did 3hrs and 40 minutes, even if that was over six hours. For example, today I started at 12:30pm and took a break 13:45-13:55, and 16:15-17:00, and my shift was 5.5 hours, so when I sat back down at 17:00 I was like, right, I have done three hours, I need to work another 2.5hrs, and so that’s what I did. If the actual *work* is slow and I don’t have a lot to do, then I have permission from work to knit, game or read as I’m waiting for tasks to come in, but I’m there and present for my required time. If it’s *me* that’s slow, I make sure that I am focused and present for the amount of time on my timesheet. This is, of course, considering actual breaks. Getting a drink, going to the toilet, eating at my desk, going through six links to find the one I need etc. aren’t counted as my formal breaks. If I take 4 minutes to do a sudoku while I’m waiting for something to load, that’s not a break, because I’m still active and if Outlook wasn’t frozen while this 85MB brief loaded, I would be responsive, and when it loads and I can rename it, I am there ready to do so. If I was like ‘right this is going to take a while to load’ and I went and made my lunch, that would be a break, because I’m not engaged in work and I’ll just rename it when I get back. (And yes, I have to load the entire document to rename it.) Things that I am also meant to count as work: waiting 40 mins for the program to open, fixing the computer when the software breaks (again), waiting on live chat for tech support, when I’m scheduled to be working and the internet is down, going to the library to see if I can find a book to teach myself excel, teaching myself excel from some random website, and converting 7000 pages of medical images to PDF. But they get x hrs of me at the computer doing things, even if that’s actually y hours in total. I don’t think you’re being needlessly scrupulous, but I would challenge whether your not-work is the same as your friends’, and whether their work and their break requirements are the same as yours. It is in my contract that I get two 10 minute breaks within every 4 hours; that’s an accommodation because I get pain from sitting up too long due to osteoporosis, but if it’s a good day I still have to take them, and they have to be 10 minutes in a block away from the computer; they can’t be microbreaks. If I work 5 hours I have to have a 30 minute break at that 5 hr mark and they have to pay me overtime if I don’t take it before 6hrs, so I have to take at least 30 minutes in a row away from my desk; that’s a legal requirement that people in other kinds of roles don’t necessarily get, or may get in a different format. If I spread out my breaks like you and took 4 x 5 minute breaks over 4hrs, then my work would be in trouble because I didn’t get my contracted breaks. (I’d also probably be in pain, but that’s not unusual.) But a lot of people don’t have that kind of specificity around their breaks, or as long as their tasks are done they can flex their time in the way you describe, especially if they’re salaried and not hourly.
Pokemon Go To The Polls* November 8, 2024 at 3:40 pm If you’re getting your work done, you’re getting your work done, don’t worry about taking a few minutes to get some fresh air or a snack or something. Certainly don’t use PTO to make up for it! Especially if you’re Salary (at least in the US), it’s generally accepted that some weeks will be more than 40, some weeks less, and it balances out and you’re an adult who can manage your time. They’re not just paying you for your work output, but your availability to take on additional work tasks, answer questions, etc etc. If you always had 40 hours of work a week that always had to be completed that week, how would any emergencies get handled? What if you were having a slow day? Or the computers were having issues? It’s just not realistic. Even in an office there’s time lost on non-work tasks like getting coffee, answering Gary’s question about what a password is, somebody brought in doughnuts, etc etc.
DJ* November 8, 2024 at 5:18 pm I work somewhere that has flexible working hours so when working from home can track these as I would if working from an office. Of course I’ll pop upstairs to put on a load of washing or hang/take off washing from the clothesline. And let the cat in let the cat out let the cat in let the cat out… But I see that as being no different to ducking out to buy a take a way coffee, lengthy non work related chat to a colleague etc if I was in the office. I’m more productive at home with no interruptions. Appreciating WFH I’m also happy to do quick responses to messages out of hours and on the train when commuting without recording that time. No one does 100% work during a work day even in the office. How many ppl use work time to pay a bill online, do personal business etc?
Lifelong student* November 8, 2024 at 5:42 pm I always look for more efficient ways to do my job- work smarter, not longer has been my mantra. If i can do something more efficienctly, either I have time to add a task or I have time which is not devoted to working- while still being present to do anything which comes up. I have had jobs where something always comes uo and jobs where nothing comes up. When crunch time comes or a project requires extra hours in a week, I did whatever needed to be done to get it done without a problem. Worked for me!
Aggretsuko* November 8, 2024 at 6:36 pm I really switch back and forth between meetings/emails/working on documents and whatnot when things are urgent, and looking at other stuff when I am burned out or things are not urgent or I’m waiting on others to be able to progress. I tend to need to bounce around in the workload to keep focused/not get bored with one thing, so that’s why.
NobodyHasTimeForThis* November 8, 2024 at 7:30 pm Usually if you work 8 hours it does not include the lunch hour – technically I would be clocked for 8.5 hours with a .5 hour lunch January, February, most of March, May, July, August, October – I probably work at least 7.75 out of the 8 even though I am entitled to paid breaks in the morning and afternoon by law I rarely take them. The other months I might have isolated days that are pedal to the metal like that but other days are light. If I have a WFH day and it is a light day I make sure I stay on top of things, but will also do laundry, cook, etc. and it is fine.
Lady Sally* November 8, 2024 at 10:06 pm Guess it varies by industry/company. In my industry we record our time in 6 minute increments. You can put time to “emails” or “billing” or whatever if it’s not billable, but you definitely have to account for 40 hours a week. If you take off early you have to record with PTO. Appreciate the user name!
Stoppin' by to chat* November 9, 2024 at 12:04 pm Agreed that you are being ” needlessly scrupulous.” Unless your role involves coverage or something like that, are you getting your deliverables done, keeping work moving forward, etc? Then allow yourself the wiggle room.
Ron McDon* November 10, 2024 at 5:36 pm Just as a counterpoint to most of the other comments – I work in healthcare admin, work a 7.5 hour day (plus a 30 min unpaid lunch break), and we are expected to be working all day long, non stop. I mean, I can grab a coffee, have a quick chat with a passing colleague, go to the loo etc, but we are expected to be slogging away for our entire 7,5 hour shift. Every job I’ve had has had the same expectation, whatever industry. I’m in the UK, if that makes a difference?
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:08 am I have colleagues in US Gov who are going to be out of jobs in January. I have not reached out yet but what would you say, after knowing and talking about a hoped for result that did not materialise? I want to say I am sorry but not sure on this.
Anne Elliot* November 8, 2024 at 11:10 am I think it’s fine to say you’re sorry. If I were them, I’d be really sorry and glad to have someone validate that! Similar to how you would respond to a layoff, this is someone who is out of a job through no fault of their own and they might like to hear that you valued their work, that you wish them well, and that you are also sad for how things turned out.
Grits McGee* November 8, 2024 at 12:35 pm Totally agree- just simple validation (“I’m sorry this happened and that you are facing a lot of stress and anxiety right now”) is so powerful. I’m a fed and people in my office are either catastrophizing or trying to cheer people up by saying things will be ok, and neither is particularly helpful or kind.
AvonLady Barksdale* November 8, 2024 at 11:14 am Saying you’re sorry is ok, and if you’re in a position to do so, offer to help them with their job search. But make that a quick offer. “Let me know if you’d like any help with your resume,” for example, and then let it go.
I'm A Little Teapot* November 8, 2024 at 12:53 pm When I had a mini meltdown over text earlier this week, the response I got was “I am here for you”. Doesn’t seem helpful, but it actually really was. Probably the best response I could have gotten. The situation sucks. You can’t fix it. Just acknowledge it. Being seen is important, and helpful.
Yes And* November 8, 2024 at 12:53 pm I think it depends. If they’re political appointees, they know that losing their job with a change of administration is a risk of the field they’re in, and hopefully they’ve already built it into their career planning. (Even if Harris had won, she would have wanted her own people in a lot of positions, and some of Biden’s people would not have been renewed.) In these are political appointees, you may be overthinking this. On the other hand, if they’re career civil servants who had counted on a stable job which is now uniquely threatened due to Trump’s Schedule F plans… oof, I don’t know. We’re all in uncharted waters here. The deliberate dismantling of the administrative state is going to be really hard on almost everyone. But federal civil servants are going to feel it first.
Magda* November 8, 2024 at 11:08 am I’m trying to figure out how to respond to a pushy former coworker. This person was fired two months ago. Our org is too wishy-washy and may not have made it clear to her why – knowing them, they blamed funding, although I sat in meetings where they said they didn’t want the program to continue and didn’t think this employee was good. It’s not my fault if they communicated poorly with her, though – we are peers, this is not my circus. She still calls me asking for updates and trying to brainstorm ways to get funding again. Texts me asking “when I can talk.” She applied for an open role and wants me to put in a good word for her, but honestly I didn’t work closely with her and, although I like her as a human being and wish her well, don’t have strong opinions about needing her to come back. What are some scripts to kindly exit myself from this situation? I’m job searching myself and I think she should do the same rather than trying to figure out how to come back, but that’s beyond my control (and also I’ve said it explicitly to her).
MsM* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am Or more explicitly, “I really don’t have any insight or influence on this issue.” Honestly, though, OP, I’m not sure why you can’t just tell her that your understanding is that there isn’t any internal/leadership support for the project, and you don’t see that changing. You don’t need to tell her you have any kind of clue why that is. If she still refuses to listen, then just say you’ve given your advice and don’t have anything further to offer, and ignore/block if that’s not enough to get her to move on.
StressedButOkay* November 8, 2024 at 11:46 am Hopefully a cheerful “I really wish you all the best here – and other places you’re looking – but I don’t have any insight on the funding/job position and won’t have any in the future” will help.
Friday Hopeful* November 8, 2024 at 12:51 pm There are many good responses here, but also – you are absolutely not obligated to respond to her at all. After this amount of time I’d just start ignoring her.
Emperor Kuzco* November 8, 2024 at 1:42 pm “Hey, sorry you’re having to deal with this job situation, but I don’t have the bandwidth right now to continue this discussion. You can try reaching out to ____ or ___ but I’ve got some personal priorities I need to focus on so I can’t help you further. Good luck with everything!”
Nia* November 8, 2024 at 11:10 am Apropos of nothing how does one go about an international job search? My, very brief not at all thorough, investigation turned up nothing but job postings that were explicit they would not sponsor a visa. People do it all the time though, so clearly someone is sponsoring visas.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:16 am Most of the visa sponsorships I have seen are either explicitly exchange programs (I.e. the JET program for English language teaching in Japan) or internal sponsorships. For example, my current company routinely sponsors people over to the global head office in Germany or sometimes in special cases to one of our other countries’ offices, but would basically never sponsor an external hire. It’s a lot to ask for an unknown person that they could just as easily hire locally without the paperwork – and I believe, but am not certain, some countries might actually have restrictions around that, such as not hiring under a visa if the job can be hired locally.
Bitte Meddler* November 8, 2024 at 4:18 pm Never have I ever been more grateful to work for a global German company that would most likely sponsor me if I asked to move over there.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:21 am Do you have language skills? Are you in a role where there are firms in other countries who need that role? Do your skills match to a job shortage (say teaching or nursing) in a country sponsoring visas like NZ or CA? Are you under 40?
Nonny* November 8, 2024 at 11:21 am Hah, I was looking too. Heavily depends on a) your passport, b) your industry. Some countries have a system for highly qualified/experienced workers (like Australia) but very specific requirements (and they probably continued tightening those since I left). Depending on your industry/role, you’ll have an easier or harder time, generally speaking. I believe an easier route would be recruiters, though I’ve mostly seen them for industries like finance, IT/tech, construction, engineering, and potentially teaching. I’m tempted myself to pick up and go and see what I can get while I’m there, but…
Nia* November 8, 2024 at 11:34 am I am in IT/tech but I’m pretty sure not the right type. I’ve never worked for an actual tech company.
Nonny* November 8, 2024 at 2:55 pm It’s always worth a look! But I’d do some heavy research on visa requirements, and like a commenter mentions below if there’s a skilled occupations list or similar, that’s half the battle, your experience and skills can get scored etc… I’d also look into some international recruiting companies specializing in IT/tech, hopefully you can talk to someone with knowledge who can be upfront about the realities of the search etc. Good luck to us both.
Aloy* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am Unless you have a specialized skill that would be hard to find in the country you’re looking in, your best bet is to get in with a global company that has international offices and might sponsor your visa in the future. I work for a Fortune 500 that encourages internal promotions, sponsors visas, and provides relocation reimbursement. However, they only provide these benefits for certain salary levels, and you have to market yourself and network a lot so people know you’re interested. Also you usually can’t be too picky about the first role you move for. Most people I know who have done it have a minimum of 4-5 years with the company.
Alexander Graham Yell* November 8, 2024 at 12:19 pm This is the best way, IMO. I tried the international job search and I know people it has worked for, but it’s not easy at all and requires a ton of paperwork. Plus a lot of smaller companies with an international footprint have tightened up on who they will sponsor, even when it’s much easier to transfer an employee vs. hire them directly. When I worked at my first international company and knew I wanted to move abroad, I made sure my work was immaculate, I had a reputation for being helpful and efficient, and I made a point of networking with people visiting from other offices. My boss + boss’s boss knew my goals, and after about 5 years I had the chance to do a temporary assignment as was given explicit blessing from my boss to find my next job while I was there. I networked hard and only deciding to leave the industry entirely kept me from getting a job. With my job now, I basically put my nose to the grindstone for two years and lucked into a situation where my team was merging with a team in Europe and I asked to transfer (with the framing that I would have the experience to answer questions and technical details they’d otherwise have to wait for the US team to be able to respond to – reducing wait time for answers by up to 6 hours and making sure people didn’t get stuck on something they didn’t know and not be able to progress). From day one at the company everybody knew I wanted to move to our HQ, and I worked hard and took language lessons and did everything I could to make myself a qualified candidate. Be flexible, market yourself, make sure your reputation is strong, and go for it.
LJ* November 9, 2024 at 11:53 pm Love the framing of adding value to the business during the relocation. It’s a win-win.
The Prettiest Curse* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am I have moved countries twice and both times didn’t try job searching till after I moved. If you are considering the UK as a potential destination, there is an official shortage occupations list. (I think the Republic of Ireland has a similar list.) You are more likely to get visa sponsorship by applying for the roles on the shortage list – I had a colleague in the US with a relative who got UK visa sponsorship this way and also got their family’s relocation expenses covered. The downside is that companies hiring for roles on the shortage occupations list are allowed to pay you 20% less than they would pay a UK resident. (Our new-ish government hasn’t made many major policy changes in this area yet, so regulations could change entirely.) Another route is to work for a multi-national company and request an international transfer. I’ll post a link to the shortage occupations list in a reply to this comment.
The Prettiest Curse* November 8, 2024 at 11:39 am Here’s a link to the list. There is also a lot of other information about applying for UK visas on the gov.uk site. https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fpublications%2Fskilled-worker-visa-immigration-salary-list&utm_campaign=aga&utm_source=agsadl1%2Csh%2Fx%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm Sadly and ironically this list has in the top 5 a high need for people of title Vice President. Which ok is not a federal job there but I cringed a bit seeing it. Thanks for sharing this list tho!
Paint N Drip* November 8, 2024 at 12:43 pm This list is wild. I make physical and digital art, that makes the UK want me???
The Prettiest Curse* November 8, 2024 at 1:36 pm I think the person whose relative I worked with was (mentioned above) was in the video game art/design field – so there was a shortage in that area at least.
kalli* November 8, 2024 at 1:57 pm Yes, my sister in law basically had a job offer before she even got on a plane, and was able to get sponsored for permanent residency as a graphic designer willing to learn English, and her main job is graphic design and art but she also does localisation into her first language. The problem with skilled occupation lists is that they’re just half of the equation – you really need to find a sponsor who needs your specific skills as well. My sister in law was lucky in that she was able to work remotely in her previous job as well while she was in the process of making things happen, but not everyone’s going in on a kind of visa that has that flexibility.
Willow* November 8, 2024 at 5:04 pm Look at your family background and see if you qualify for citizenship through descent anywhere. I am looking into getting my Canadian citizenship certificate as my mother was born there. Some countries allow citizenship to be passed down several generations.
Banana Pyjamas* November 8, 2024 at 7:49 pm Depending on the year you graduated and the university you graduated from, you could qualify for an HPI visa to the UK, which is relatively inexpensive, just over 4000GBP. Around 1200 of that is actually savings you are required to have. The visa enables you to look for work, you do not have to have a job as a prerequisite. Google UK hpi visa and the uk.gov page with the information should be the first result.
Chicky* November 9, 2024 at 9:50 am I had a friend who moved to the UK from the US by doing a kind of apprenticeship program for a consulting company. They hired people with PhDs who didn’t have experience in industry and trained them. Then she got hired full time from there and eventually stayed long enough to get her permanent residency.
New super* November 8, 2024 at 11:10 am I’m going to be a new supervisor come January, when my group gains an intern. I’ve got 6 years of experience and I’ve been somewhat in the role of supervisor to my coworker for the last year – previous group manager left bridges burning when coworker had only been here a week, and it took a while to fill the position – so I’m not totally new to this, but an intern is a really different experience altogether. I’ve been reading Alison’s advice, but what other advice does the commentariat have for me?
Generic Name* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am Don’t assume the intern knows how to use office software. They likely have never used Outlook before, and it would be a kindness to explain the basics. One of my fresh from college coworkers didn’t understand that he would not be notified of emails coming in if Outlook was closed. Also, regularly check in on the progress of assigned tasks. You will need to manage them more closely that you yourself need to be managed. Don’t assume they will come to you when they encounter roadblocks or have questions. Be specific about how much you expect them to figure out on their own versus when they need to ask you or a colleague. As in, try to troubleshoot/research something for 30 minutes (or whatever) and then you can ask a coworker for help.
Lily Rowan* November 8, 2024 at 12:37 pm Yeah, especially for interns, be as explicit as you can be when you explain things or give feedback. Yes, you need to look at your email all the time, and here’s exactly how to do that. Etc. They don’t know!
I'm A Little Teapot* November 8, 2024 at 12:55 pm Honestly, at this point, don’t assume anyone who doesn’t have several years of experience working knows how to use a computer. Because ALL of the new grads I’ve been working with struggle with a mouse, its just how much.
Snow Angels in the Zen Garden* November 8, 2024 at 9:09 pm Thirding not making assumptions about using office software. The community college where I formerly worked no longer requires the class because it is assumed students learned in high school or will learn enough during other courses. A more recent colleague wasn’t even required to learn how to touch-type in school.
ThursdaysGeek* November 8, 2024 at 12:03 pm Treat the intern like a real employee: give them real work, have real work expectations. But let them know that school is still more important, and if they need time off to study, that is fine. I’ve worked places where the interns were given fake work that we didn’t care about. And my current job where they are full members of the team, but working part time. This current job is so much better. (Also, the current intern will be starting as a full time employee in a bit over a month!)
Bitte Meddler* November 8, 2024 at 4:36 pm At the three places I interned at, and then at the companies I have worked for, interns were thrown into the deep end on, like, Day Two. “Welcome to the team, please test the two controls I am about to assign to you. They are due in 3 days. Look at last quarter’s / last year’s workpapers to see how to do it. If something doesn’t make sense but you can keep working, make a note of it. If it’s keeping you from working, spend no more than half an hour trying to figure it out before asking someone for help. And, feel free to ask anyone anything. We’ll get suspicious if you don’t have a few dozen questions between now and the end of the week. ;-) ” The team culture was such that, as long as it was clear the intern had tried *something* on their own to figure out, literally everyone from the Sr VP on down was happy to help out.
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 12:04 pm Set up a system early on of touchpoints on projects so you review their plan, an early slice of work, and drafts along the way (or the equivalent depending on the role). They’ll need more guidance and early feedback will help a lot to keep them on track. If you can, give them a portfolio-type project that’s worth listing on their resume and mentor them through that. If they’re good, tell them you’ll serve as a reference and that you want them to keep you informed of their professional moves after they leave. Do at least one follow-up ping so they know you mean it. I’ve had many interns, tell every one of them this, and have only had one stay in touch. That’s the one who got my glowing referral for an unposted job opening that they interviewed for, got, and then they ended up getting the position of the manager who hired them when that person left. The rest who disappeared? Couldn’t tell you their names now. You’re teaching them how to build and maintain a professional network.
Helping Hand* November 8, 2024 at 12:27 pm Congrats! My general experience with interns is they can do tremendous good, but need a lot of explicit directions. Conceptually, I like establishing a mentor who gets to manage the student (and then develops supervisory skills), have the coop help everyone in the department and have routine check-ins to ensure things don’t go off rails. Things I do: 1. Assign a Mentor, ideally one of your more senior employees who has expressed interest in managing people. 2. Have the mentor (with your oversight) develop a work plan for the student. What will they work on the time they’re here? Let the mentor do the plan, your role will be to make sure it’s reasonable (is the plan for the coop to fetch coffee all semester? rejected. Is the plan for the coop to create a new technology? good intentions, but nope. Is the plan to do some of the technical work the mentor would have normally worked on? approved!) 3. For the work plan, ideally pair the student with other employees of yours. That way, they have their primary mentor, but the rest of the team helps mentor the coop. (i.e. for task 1, Joey will need help on preparing report xyz, for task 2 suzy will need help doing inspections, for task 3 Jeremy will need to arrange for a vendor to come do work, etc.) It takes a village. 4. Once the coop is here, have weekly 1-1s, asking for feedback, are they being kept busy, what do they want to work on while they’re here. 5. When you have your 1-1s with your employees, ask them for feedback on the coop. Is the student picking up work well, can they do more? or are they struggling. (This is a perfect moment to teach/have your mentor provide feedback and develop that skillset).
spcepickle* November 8, 2024 at 12:54 pm Interns are a whole different ball park with management. One of the big things to know is that you have be very explicit with most intern. Many of them have no frame of reference about how employment works. So telling them exactly what you expect, tell them when their behavior is even slightly out of line, tell them what office norms are without them having to infer. Remember you setting them up for success for their whole career. You also have to set boundaries, teach them that work is not the same as friends / family. Also have fun! Interns are often a breath of fresh air to your office, and some of them bring the best energy. Set time aside to listen to them and give them space to help come up with new ideas.
I didn't say banana* November 8, 2024 at 8:54 pm Does your workplace have any kind of welcome document/induction manual for interns? If you can, read and update it now. When our first batch of interns started after the pandemic, the document was huge, inaccurate and confusing, it created more questions than it answered. If there is no document, see if you can start jotting down a few things – what programs they’ll need to remember passwords for, who to go to for help with what problems, any non negotiable rules for the work (e.g. everything must be reviewed before going to clients, process X must occur before Y can happen).
darlingpants* November 8, 2024 at 11:11 am I work primarily on project teams that have different staffing for every project, and I’m wondering if anyone has experience or advice about if and how to avoid working on projects lead by people I don’t think are competent or kind. There’s a range of competence in the project leaders, from people I like working with, to people who I’ve clashed with over timelines and approaches and would prefer not to work with, to someone who I’m pretty sure would make me cry if I ever had to work on his projects (luckily his role is such that I don’t *think* I’ll ever need to). What’s the line that’s appropriate to request or insist that I don’t want to work on a particular project, and does anyone have experience with requesting that? Or is this just part of work to deal with and I need to suck it up?
English Rose* November 8, 2024 at 11:24 am How is who works on what currently decided? The only thing I can think of is to keep in close touch with the project leaders you like working with so you’re always aware of what’s coming up for them and can ask to support that project.
Spacewoman Spiff* November 8, 2024 at 11:35 am Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. When I was in a role where staffing worked in a similar way, I was pretty miserable until I found one partner I enjoyed working with. I knew she wanted me on projects, so I made sure to also let her know I was interested in anything she had coming down the line. There were still some managers who cropped up on those projects that I wasn’t happy with, but it was overall a big improvement, and I was able to avoid a lot of bad projects just by being fully staffed months into the future. I did one time refuse to work on a project (I just was NOT the right fit for it, I had no knowledge in the appropriate area, and I sort of sensed that my inclusion was tied to some leadership shenanigans in my group). Once I’d gotten a sense for the work, I just flat-out said “I am not the right person and can’t do this work.” But I don’t know that I would recommend this…at the time, I had a grad school offer and knew I would be leaving the company in a few months, so I wasn’t too worried about blowback. I really don’t know how I would have managed it otherwise; I think I would have had to find a way off, but it’s so hard to do that without burning bridges, especially if you work somewhere where you depend on project teams wanting to bring you on to their projects.
Mockingjay* November 8, 2024 at 1:23 pm We have support teams (I’m on one) that projects can draw from, with task leads to coordinate assignments. Some assignments are simply given to whoever is available. Some are assigned by individual expertise, but not always – we try to cross-train and get people to work on a variety of stuff. There are a few project leads who ask for staff by name. Availability, skills, project longevity – all these are factors in determining assignments. Large projects might get someone assigned full-time (I was on one until recently), but for the most part we get whatever comes in as it comes in. Which means, of course, we all get stuck with project leads we’re not overfond of sooner or later. But swapping tasks means we also get breaks from particular persons and we pass on how to get around/along with them: “Bob never checks his email, but if you text him on his work cell, he’ll know to look at the report.” “Susan is dreadful at keeping to timelines, but her task lead will sneak you copies of the schedule so you know when the design is due.” But there will be times when you’re just stuck working with that ‘someone.’ The best approach is to be scrupulously professional and document everything in emails, meeting notes, server notes when you upload the latest draft. Take pride in the product or your effort, if not the team.
Jan Levinson Gould* November 9, 2024 at 12:31 pm Sounds very familiar to my matrix project-based group. A lot depends on someone’s political capital and how highly sought-after they are. I have some say as to who gets assigned. I paid my dues and am senior enough that I can pick and choose my projects, but my direct reports are not senior enough. Usually everyone gets stuck with a turd at some point. There’s one project lead in particular that most people don’t like working under. The unlikeable project lead always asks for the strongest A player on my group. I refuse to give the A player to that lead for their projects just to spite that lead whom I also dislike. The A player already spent enough time under that bad project lead so there’s also a need to spread the pain. Other projects are clamoring for that resource too. If other direct reports of mine are on the bench, there’s really no avoiding putting them on a project with the bad lead. The top resource also takes the initiative to come up with special projects during their downtime to keep them off the radar.
Cacofonix* November 10, 2024 at 9:21 pm Ask someone you respect who works well with worse PMs for tips on working with them more effectively. I got asked this quite frequently because I had learned to work with a lot of difficult people. You could also use a bit of political capital with whomever influences assignments and ask not to be assigned to the worst, if it’s not too inconvenient and you avoid complaining. I’ve agreed to a less interesting project once as a trade off to avoid being on a project with a lead who tanked every project he ran. But learning how to be resourceful and working with others of all types is your best bet.
Keladry of Mindelan* November 8, 2024 at 11:13 am I started a new position this week at a university. My supervisor works in a different location and has responsibilities far beyond the scope of my work. I don’t have any colleagues doing the same type of work, my office is tucked away in a remote hallway with various part-time staff in multiple departments (think IT, athletics, and a couple of empty offices). I’ve reached out to 30+ folks across the university who are stakeholders in the work and have gotten a couple of responses. My onboarding was limited to a self-guided online module which primarily discussed benefits. I’ve done this work before at another university and am confident in my abilities. However, I haven’t been given the tools or support that I need/would like to get up and running. I need access to files from my predecessor, information related to printing/office supplies/procedures, and just generally have a lot of questions. My supervisor is kind and was very supportive on my first day, but hasn’t responded to emails or Teams messages this week. I’m sure they’re just busy, but I’m feeling very much as though I was put out to sea without the tools to survive. Once I make landfall, I know that I can get myself to a good place, but I don’t know how to get to land on my own. Any ideas? (FWIW, the university where I worked previously was my alma mater, so I had existing connections and knew my way around all of the systems/knew where to direct my questions. I’m sure it doesn’t help that my isolated office has my ambivert self feeling all kinds of lonely, which I did not anticipate–at my previous institution, I worked directly with students on a daily basis and almost never had a single second alone in my office, which drove me batty…but now I miss it- and them- constantly)
Keladry of Mindelan* November 8, 2024 at 11:18 am Mine too!! <3 Assuming that your name is from Persuasion and perhaps not your real name, I love yours too :)
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* November 8, 2024 at 11:20 am Try to find the secret admin network – the non-faculty, non-senior-administrator people who make the university work. Not the stakeholders you’ve reached out to, but the people 1-2 rungs lower on the ladder. You probably were in that at your previous job without actually realizing it. The department coordinators, the dean’s EA, etc.
rkz* November 8, 2024 at 12:15 pm This is what I was thinking – are you part of a department that has an admin? does your supervisor have one? They are usually the key to getting things done in higher Ed.
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 2:32 pm Yeah, for sure. If they don’t know, then they DEFINITELY know who does and should point you in that direction.
Another commenter on this board, anon for this one* November 8, 2024 at 11:26 am If relevant to your situation, I recommend reaching out to other departments for guidance documents on more generic onboarding procedures. I had a situation where one of the better-funded departments had a detailed multi-page document and I adapted from it with their permission when onboarding a new hire in our badly funded department (at a large university).
The teapots are on fire* November 8, 2024 at 11:51 am Your supervisor may be the kind of person you have to call. Or if they have a calendar you may have to put yourself on it for a meeting. Academics typically get no training on how to manage, as you probably know, and this may be a person who’s never caught up with email.
Retirednow* November 8, 2024 at 11:57 am I would actually give people slack if you started this week. A lot of people Are still reeling
Keladry of Mindelan* November 8, 2024 at 12:12 pm This is so real. Thanks for the perspective. My default method of “coping” (heavy emphasis on the quotes) is to throw myself so completely into my work that I do not have the brain space for anything else. It seems I may have neglected to consider that a) not everyone responds that way and b) if this was not my first week in a new job, I would likely be fully embracing my troll-under-the-bridge office location and burying my head in the work so fully that I would forget that anyone else even exists. I just don’t have enough to do right now to disappear in the way I would prefer. Thank you for the reminder :)
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 2:33 pm This was my thought, too. Yes, all of us in my office are still “working,” but it’s more of the tiny tasks, monitor-your-email variety than hard work.
Synaptically Unique* November 8, 2024 at 6:37 pm Yes, this. We’ve accomplished about half of what we expected this week. And instead of catching up this weekend, I feel like I need to stay in bed and sleep.
My Day (they/them)* November 8, 2024 at 11:13 am My company just an hour or so ago emailed out a notice that they’re requiring binding arbitration for resolving employee disputes that can’t be resolved internally, excepting a few different kinds of excluded claims/disputes. I’m still reading through and trying to parse the six pages of legalese, but I’ve never been a fan of arbitration policies and preferred to opt out if possible (there is no clause for doing so here that I can see). There is a section that states employees have the right to challenge the policy’s validity without retaliation. Is this something normal? Has anyone encountered anything like it before? I suppose I will need to agree if I want to keep working here, but it makes me Tired.
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 11:18 am I think we need some more details. Are you in the US? Do you have an employment contract or belong to a union?
My Day (they/them)* November 8, 2024 at 12:34 pm Sorry, yes, US-based. No contract or union, I work in cybersecurity. The policy will apply to all US-based employees, including territories.
My Day (they/them)* November 8, 2024 at 12:37 pm From further reading, the required arbitrator organization is JAMS, if anyone has direct knowledge of them.
Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)* November 8, 2024 at 11:20 am Quick guess – do they mean something like ACAS? (Sorry I do not know a non-UK equivalent)
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 11:55 am This is going to be very very location-dependent. It’s not uncommon. It’s a way for employers to reduce legal expenses and also reduce employee access to legal counsel. Unfortunately your best answer is going to come from a local employment lawyer or legal aid, since they’ll have the best read of the applicable local laws.
My Day (they/them)* November 8, 2024 at 12:40 pm This is probably the best idea, honestly. I’ll consult my local bar organization and see what I can find out. Thank you!
AnonymousOctopus* November 8, 2024 at 12:45 pm I encountered this in my last job and it was a huge part of why I left. The company had lost a class action for failing to follow wage/labor laws in one state they were active in. In retaliation they closed operations in that state and brought out the arbitration agreement. Enough people refused to sign (because you can’t be forced to sign or fired for not signing without the company giving some consideration ($$$) in return [per a colleague’s lawyer, consult your own]) that the company made a policy that no promotions, transfers, or raises would be approved for a specific employee until they signed it. I held out for 6 months until I gained a new certification that came with a $10k/year pay bump, then got out of dodge asap. tl;dr: I consider them a sign that a company has no intention of following relevant laws or dealing with problems proactively, and shows that the company sees employees as adversaries.
Drought* November 8, 2024 at 1:38 pm This is pretty common in trade secrete jobs, like biotech, pharma, etc. I work for an amazing company who really does bend over backwards to do right by its employees and even they have an arbitration clause.
Not Squid* November 8, 2024 at 10:52 pm Strong chance we work for the same employer based on this comment, so proceeding with that assumption. Opt out – in the email itself (not the policy document), it says you need to click to acknowledge and agree OR if you are still employed in 30 days it constitutes acceptance. So unfortunately I think our only way out is to resign or be terminated in the next 29 days. Beyond that, the policy doesn’t sever at termination, so we are SOL except in the handful of cases outlined in the policy where arbitration is superseded by existing governance (e.g., unemployment claims). Prohibiting class action should be illegal IMO, and there’s a bunch more in there that I didn’t love. Actively looking to get out but my job is niche and I need to remain mostly or fully remote for medical reasons, so it’s tough finding someplace to land.
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 11:14 am Anyone in your workplace get fired or disciplined about political stuff this week? We generally don’t discuss politics at all in my office. A guy in another dept was ranting about the election and tried to get the other person in my dept to engage. Other person in my dept just turned back to his computer and refused to engage. Didn’t say a word. The ranter then went off the edge. Very verbally abusive. He was walked out a bit ago. I think this was just the last straw, as there had been other issues.
MsM* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am Not yet, but I’m debating whether to remind my too-loud, slightly junior colleague in another department that we mean it when we say we’re nonpartisan myself, or have a chat with his supervisor. (Leaning toward the latter, but she laughed at one of his comments, so I’m not 100% sure that’s going to work out the way I hope it will.)
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 11:58 am Would he not have been fired if he lost his shit on a coworker and became verbally abusive about anything else? Do you think it was the topic, or his behavior, that caused your company to act? Because if they would have let it slide if it weren’t about politics, they are terrible anyway.
Tradd* November 8, 2024 at 12:39 pm I’d say it was both. Dude was already pretty snarky in everyday interactions, but this was massively over the top. We do not talk politics. Period. Nothing was said to not talk about them, but that’s the unwritten rule. We do have to talk about some things since we are a freight forwarder/customs broker, so things like tariff increases due to administration changes have to be talked about.
M2RB* November 8, 2024 at 12:30 pm Thankfully my office was quiet this week. Our VP of HR made an announcement in a monthly staff meeting in September that as election season is heating up, to take any election/political talk outside the office and outside of work hours, and that people have been and will be reprimanded for disregarding that policy. Some talk about energy policy and the economy is required due to the nature of our work, but nothing else should be discussed was the message I took away from her comments & instructions. I was grateful for how compliant everyone was in the area where I sit. I’ve stayed out of the lunchroom this week and had minimal non-work conversations this week because I don’t want to get pulled into any conversations in any direction.
Rick Tq* November 8, 2024 at 12:31 pm We just got an email from HR that someone sent out political mailers using envelopes preprinted with our company information. One got sent back as undeliverable which exposed the use. Nothing was explicitly said in the mail from HR but there were multiple mentions that it violated the company ethical standards, especially the one about speaking for the company without authorization. I’m guessing the culprit will be fired if they can be identified.
pally* November 8, 2024 at 1:17 pm Wow! That’s a ballsy move there! Using company envelopes to send out political missives. I always wonder about things like this. Is it just the tip of the iceberg for this kind of activity or was this the only time someone did this? I know; folks won’t ever know the answer to this.
pally* November 8, 2024 at 12:51 pm I’m in a small office where nearly everyone is pro-Trump. Politics are discussed all. the. time. There’s been tears over hurt feelings when someone expresses an opinion that doesn’t agree with Trump’s viewpoints. Upper management provided refreshments the day after the election -to celebrate. If anyone espouses an opposing point of view, they are chided for their ignorance. Saw it happen with former co-workers. So I keeps quiet.
Tired of winning* November 8, 2024 at 2:58 pm Where do you work? I’d love to work somewhere which isn’t uniformly of the “orange man bad” variety.
Panicked* November 8, 2024 at 4:35 pm Co-signing. My small workplace employs at least four people who have a green card. Several more are first gen American citizens. The tension here is THICK. And I’m in a blue area of Texas. Go 20 minutes in any direction and it’s one gigantic red zone.
Bananapants Modiste* November 9, 2024 at 6:53 am Hubby is a European immigrant here in Florida – the neighbors already acused him of stuff he couldn’t have done. We may have to move.
Veruca Salt* November 8, 2024 at 4:13 pm This seems like a lack of thoughtfulness on the upper management’s part. In my small office, everyone is on the other side of the spectrum, but we have a no politics rule regardless. It just doesn’t add any bonhomie to our days. Before we agreed to this, we were getting each other all riled up. Plus, our most outspoken clients tend to be of a different political persuasion, and this has made it (somewhat) easier to sidestep those conversations. But this is your upper management’s decision, so what recourse do you have but to keep quiet? I definitely feel for you.
pally* November 8, 2024 at 4:18 pm Thank you. I wish there was a “no politics” rule – regardless of what anyone’s politics are.
Yes And* November 8, 2024 at 1:00 pm A manager at my company got into a social media political argument with a freelancer we’ve employed in the past. And at one point the manager declared that the company would never employ this freelancer again. I don’t know yet what the consequences will be, but… it is not good.
Bananapants Modiste* November 8, 2024 at 1:01 pm I’m working in a European country where you don’t talk politics at work At.All. In meetings on Wednesday, my European colleagues expressed mild pity for me. That is considered a lot.
I should really pick a name* November 8, 2024 at 1:08 pm I’m hoping that behaviour would be an issue regardless of the subject matter.
carrot cake* November 8, 2024 at 6:55 pm No one got fired that I know of, but you can just feel the “Oh crap, what’s gonna happen now?” vibe. We’re all scared.
TheBunny* November 9, 2024 at 1:36 am I feel this. I keep work and personal separate and really haven’t discussed it at work…but go to my FB or IG and it’s quite clear what I’m thinking.
Caprica* November 8, 2024 at 11:18 am My organization gives out forty awards each year, distributed into twenty categories with one award going to the most deserving man and one award going to the most deserving woman. (Obviously, this is done by gender identity.) We’re looking at reworking it to include non-binary employees, but we’re coming up with a few snags. Namely that they are less than twenty out NB employees at the company. Would it be awkward to have an award category that didn’t include an NB winner that year due to a smaller pool to select from? Each award has a cash component so we don’t want to double up: one employee gets one award. Conversely, what if it’s an award that can’t be filled by the small pool (for example, award for highest sales but none of them are salespeople). Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* November 8, 2024 at 11:22 am Eliminate the overall gender distinction? I assume this was implemented because there was a stark gender divide between roles in the past, or a significant old-boys network – has the organization progressed to the point that those old structures don’t apply anymore?
Caprica* November 8, 2024 at 11:24 am Not really. Women only comprise anywhere from 15 to 25% of the company.
BellaStella* November 8, 2024 at 11:28 am Perhaps awards to managers who hire the most M/F/NB balanced and diverse teams ?
ecnaseener* November 8, 2024 at 4:08 pm So in effect, women actually have a much higher individual chance than men at winning? (3x as likely if they’re 25% of the company, over 5x as likely if they’re 15%.) Doesn’t that cause its own legal issues? Obviously it’s fine (good in fact!) to have some special awards dedicated to women in the field, but for a routine employee of the month thing I’d think everyone should have a roughly equal chance at winning.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:25 am Yeah, can you just make it the top two or three employees? or would that make it so that statistically it’s always going to men?
evens* November 8, 2024 at 3:10 pm Maybe women don’t deserve an award if they aren’t the highest performing people, assuming it’s the same role. Just ditch the gender distinctions and give it to the highest performing. That’s better anyway.
Wilbur* November 8, 2024 at 5:08 pm I think there’s a distinction between performance and impact. Performance is something the employee can control, but impact might not be. Someone might be in a position to save the company millions because of market conditions or which projects they happen to be assigned, but their performance on that project might not be any better than their coworkers. There are plenty of professions (engineering for example) where there might not be woman situated in a position to have a huge impact, but they might still be doing very high level work. It’s worth recognizing that.
Friday Hopeful* November 8, 2024 at 1:00 pm If I were the number two person and my gender was the same as the number one person, I’d be really pissed that my achievement was overlooked and given to someone who didn’t perform as well as me. (especially if their overall performance was not even close- say #1 in their gender but #12 overall). I think its time to retire that policy!
Caprica* November 8, 2024 at 11:22 am I want to add: NB employees weren’t previously excluded from awards. The company only reworked things to widen the gender identity selection earlier this year; it was previously dude or lady only. Not great but not up to me.
Rara Avis* November 8, 2024 at 11:25 am Give the 2 awards to 2 human beings and take gender out of the equation. I realize that the man/woman designation might originally have been put it to make sure women weren’t regularly overlooked, but if the committee can be thoughtful about that, it might be time to end the one women/one man policy.
Raw Flour* November 8, 2024 at 11:25 am I’d eliminate gender altogether. Keep the top-two format, and if it’s then absolutely dominated by men or by women, look at the factors as to why. In this situation there’s definitely no need for a separate awards category for nonbinary people, but they should absolutely be given a chance at an award that doesn’t misgender them.
WantonSeedStitch* November 8, 2024 at 12:53 pm This. Also, make sure that there is good representation on the committee of people who choose the award recipients.
Lore* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am I am a voter for an award organization that did away with gendered categories entirely and simply honors two people in categories previously divided by gender. This change is only a few years old so the data pool is small, but so far there’s been no evidence that this disadvantages either of the previously used genders, and has already rewarded some NB nominees.
Silvester* November 8, 2024 at 11:32 am Seems odd to differentiate by gender at all – why not just give out awards for e.g. the two salespeople with best overall sales?
Double A* November 8, 2024 at 11:33 am Are you in sports or an otherwise gender-segregated industry? If no, why are you giving out awards based on gender? This is weird even in acting, it’s just that we’re used to it for that industry.
Llellayena* November 8, 2024 at 11:42 am Eliminate the gender distinction, make it “top 2” only. AND specifically encourage/look for entries from the women and non-binary employees. If you have a way to do blind reviews of the entries (to eliminate bias), do so. You may end up with a category where the best two were both women or one woman and one non-binary employee.
WantonSeedStitch* November 8, 2024 at 12:54 pm Blind reviews of existing employees might be harder than for, say, resumes: if the award is given based on work someone has done, it might be easy to tell who a nominee is by what work is described in the nomination.
TechWorker* November 8, 2024 at 11:52 am Either do ungendered awards, or if you want to specifically award people who aren’t men, how about putting ‘women and non-binary’ into one category? (I am a woman in tech & we now have two non binary folks in what used to just be our ‘women’s’ group & it’s totally fine.)
Genevieve* November 8, 2024 at 1:09 pm Yeah, as a woman I’d be all for including NB people in the women’s category (I guess making it “gender minorities at this company” category) but I have no idea how NB people might feel about that (and I’m sure different people would feel differently). I think doing away with the gender categories and finding other ways to make sure the non-cis-men aren’t overlooked is the best option. Probably tricky, but better.
Hastily Blessed Fritos* November 8, 2024 at 6:58 pm I’m a cis woman who has heard from multiple NB people that they don’t like that approach, calling it “woman lite” (which is exacerbated by the common conception of NB people as androgynous-presenting AFAB, which is obviously not always the case!)
My Day (they/them)* November 8, 2024 at 1:20 pm As a non-binary person who has been invited to my org’s women’s group, this is pretty person dependent. For me it has been a very frustrating experience.
Classically Ambigous English Prepositional Phrase* November 8, 2024 at 1:35 pm I can see the reasong for doing that, but to me it sets up men as the default and everyone else as the “other”.
Mad Harry Crewe* November 8, 2024 at 4:06 pm Oh please don’t do that. NBs are not “woman lite.” OP, it sounds like people apply for the awards, or are nominated? Maybe have the gender categories be “male and non-binary” / “female and non-binary” and let people self-select into whichever group they feel most comfortable with? The thing is, non-binary/genderqueer/genderfluid/enby/etc is not a single, monolithic identity. Some people lean more masc or fem, some people lean both, some people lean neither. Gender identity and expression is not a linear spectrum with Male at one end and Female at the other. It’s a multidimensional space, and the difference between offering two points in that space (male, female) or three points (male, female, NB) isn’t actually that significant. You’re still leaving out a lot of people who won’t be super comfortable with any of them – despite authoring it, those three points do not include me, for example. I think you’re better off expanding two categories to the absolute max limit, versus trying to introduce a third, strictly bounded, category. But it really does need to be both categories. Please (please please please) do not do The Mens and The Ladies Plus Everybody We Secretly Think Of As Ladies.
TechWorker* November 8, 2024 at 4:14 pm I absolutely do not think NB people are ‘women lite’ >.< as someone said above it’s more about not being ‘the majority gender’. I guess slightly different for a group where people self select in than an award though (& in general I do think just removing gender from the awards is best – and if men ‘always’ win then worth assessing whether people who are not men are getting equal exposure to job opportunities that would give them the chance to win).
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 11:57 am Eliminate the gendered award and replace it with an award for people who displayed exemplary DEI behavior during the year.
TechWorker* November 8, 2024 at 4:12 pm I mean if this means you end up awarding women and NB people awards for DEI rather than for being good at their jobs I don’t think it solves any problems…
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 5:30 pm No, I’m thinking of tackling the underlying problem. If the problem is “we’re not awarding anything to women/NB people”, then that’s either a problem with the award selection process or that the workplace is still predominantly male. Improving DEI and hiring initiatives to not hire and retain only men should help that. Giving an award to a woman/NB person just because they’re female/NB smacks as icky to me anyways.
Moon Muffin* November 8, 2024 at 11:19 am In my company I’ve noticed a senior executive defaulting to calling every singular person as “they”. Like “Sarah has given their notice. They were a star employee and we will miss them” even if Sarah has “she/her” pronouns listed in her bio. I have no problem with it if this person’s gender isn’t known or if they (example) prefer to use “they/them” pronouns, but just as someone might prefer “they” someone might not. I would prefer “she/her” for myself but I also wouldn’t bother addressing it if I was called “they/them” the odd time. I don’t really have a question other than what’s your thoughts?
TechWorker* November 8, 2024 at 12:00 pm I don’t find it disrespectful tbh.. I think it’s totally fine ♀️ I sometimes use it if I am writing quickly & don’t have time to look up in our system whether someone has specified pronouns.. it also seems better to do it across the board than only for names where I don’t ‘know’ the more likely gender. Plus even for names that are more commonly one gender you might be wrong – I work with a male Carol and a female Kiran for eg…
RussianInTexas* November 8, 2024 at 2:26 pm I worked with a female Leslie and a male Stacy at the same time. There was confusion.
juliebulie* November 8, 2024 at 3:28 pm I had an Uncle Francis and Aunt Jeanne, but for many years my sister thought they were Uncle Gene (we had another Uncle Gene) and Aunt Frances. We weren’t close to them, or her confusion would have been resolved much sooner.
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:23 am Probably used so the company can make a form letter and they don’t have to change anything but the name honestly. But they is still a perfectly valid pronoun for anyone really, just referring to them as a general. I honestly don’t think this is an issue.
Moon Muffin* November 8, 2024 at 11:29 am I’ll note that this is in meetings talking about specific people rather than written form or general templates
Magnolia Clyde* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am When the executive does this, are they speaking, or are they writing it in an email/newsletter? If it’s something written, maybe the executive is using a template and isn’t taking the time to check or change the message. (Maybe? This is just a wild guess.) If it’s a verbal message, then … I have no idea.
Magnolia Clyde* November 8, 2024 at 11:34 am Just saw your follow-up! Hmmm. That’s an interesting choice, to default to “they” without checking with the person in question.
Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon* November 8, 2024 at 11:42 am My thoughts are that “they” can be used to fill a need of “not specifying gender,” not just “does not have a binary gender.” Otherwise, we don’t have a pronoun equivalent of “person” or “human being.” To me, using ungendered “they” pronouns for someone whose gendered pronouns are known is (or should be) the equivalent of saying “Sarah was a lovely person to work with.” Nobody would feel the need to say, “No, you mean Sarah was a lovely WOMAN to work with.” If we find it useful as a language to have generic nouns, that’s probably the same reason people are seeing the benefits of generic pronouns. Also, speaking as a linguist by training: language tends to change in the direction of people finding more uses for words. Prescriptivists who try to insist everyone limit themselves to the original meaning are usually fighting a losing battle (e.g., “literally”). A certain new meaning may be your pet peeve, but that’s how language change works. People see an opportunity to use a word in a new way, and they go for it.
Anon for this* November 8, 2024 at 12:09 pm I was also trained as a linguist, but my take on this is exactly the opposite. Language change happens naturally as children acquire their native language and the grammar that they build up in their head is inevitably just a little different from that of the previous generation. What doesn’t work is *engineering* language change: -Generations of kids being taught “thou shalt not split infinitives” to basically no effect, because it’s just not a real rule of English -The French Academy coming up with alternatives so that people won’t use English loan words, but they end up using the English loan words anyway -And I would put your proposed change in this category too. Maybe someday, someone will be a native speaker of a variety of English with a gender-neutral animate personal pronoun. But if you’re calling everyone “they” just because it’s more logical, or what you would prefer…then I’m sorry, but *you’re* the prescriptivist.
Angstrom* November 8, 2024 at 12:18 pm Well said. “Person” is a good example. I can certainly understand using “they” as a default, especially if one deals with a lot of different people every day as part of one’s job.
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 12:07 pm I would think the exec can’t remember on the fly the email signatures of every employee they might refer to, and since people don’t carry thought bubbles over their heads showing their bios, the exec is trying not to assume. I think if you aren’t sure, it’s better to go with “they” than to stop a meeting to put someone on the spot, and it’s better to default to “they” than to he or she based on appearance.
carrot cake* November 8, 2024 at 6:59 pm Totally agree. Exec. is being considerate, respectful, and efficient.
Elsewise* November 8, 2024 at 12:07 pm I’ve seen this done by well-meaning allies who are trying to practice not gendering people, and also as a microaggression against binary trans people. It’s hard to say without context which it is. If you want to address it, you could use plausible deniability and just casually say “oh, I didn’t realize Sarah used they/them pronouns!” and see how the exec responds. If there are any out trans people in your department who you’re close to, you could check in with them and see how they’re reading it. If you find that your trans friends are bothered by being degendered/misgendered, you can offer to say something on their behalf. Some of them might not care, though! If it’s just you, I agree that I probably wouldn’t say anything. I’m a cis woman and I get they’d a lot (byproduct of hanging out with a lot of queer people and being gently butch) and it doesn’t bother me, so I wouldn’t bring it up on my own behalf. But I’m not everyone!
Parakeet* November 8, 2024 at 12:09 pm I (they/them or she/her, with a moderate preference in work spaces for the former) think the place where this becomes a genuine problem is if the person in question is a trans man who uses he/him or a trans woman who uses she/her. There’s a trope among trans women that I know, that they joke darkly about, where if someone is unhappy with a trans woman suddenly she becomes “they”. I know that some people use “they” for everyone in order to normalize it. I understand why people take this approach. I personally do not love it. Using “they” for oneself is one of relatively few ways to assert nonbinary identity that most people understand, if one wants to do that for e.g. visibility or pride reasons. Making it the default pronoun for everyone undercuts this a bit. It’s not a hill I would personally die on, especially as I saw a lot more of it 10-15 years ago and it seems to be on the decline. Just one of those minor peeves. That said, singular they has been a generic pronoun for a long time before contemporary North American gender discourse.
Mad Harry Crewe* November 8, 2024 at 6:58 pm “They” is the only pronoun I *don’t* use! It sounds like this exec is very egalitarian, so hopefully it’s not a microaggression against trans folks, but it does bother me when I get they’d. Agreed that if this person is good at pronouns except when trans people are involved – that’s not a good look. If this person is theying everybody, that’s not ideal but it suggests it’s a quirk of the speaker rather than transphobia.
Firefighter (Metaphorical)* November 9, 2024 at 9:34 am I was having exactly this conversation with a colleague recently and I agree with everything you say. I personally don’t want to be referred to with “they” pronouns because – even though I am cis – my gender identity as a woman is important to me, and it’s important to me that “she” can refer to people who look like me and we don’t get ejected from womanhood for not looking femme enough (I’m a butch lesbian). So although I don’t hate generic “they” and it’s better than lots of other things & usually well-intentioned, I also don’t like it because it’s an erasure. (Alison Bechdel put this really well: “I understand why people want to use “they”, and I could do that, but I’ve worked so hard to count as a “she”, I’m going to stick there.”)
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 12:16 pm From your follow-up comment that they’re doing this in meetings, not necessarily written form, it feels to me like they’re making sure they don’t misgender anyone by using a pronoun that’s been in the English language a long time. Sure, it’s more personal connection with employees if they learn and use everyone’s pronouns. Seems to me it’s a nice rebalancing of norms for an occasional cis person who feels strongly to say “I’d rather go by he/him/his” than for a nonbinary person to need to request they/them/theirs. I’d say props to them for developing an inclusive habit of speech. A cis person isn’t harmed by them using a pronoun that grammatically covers anyone and everyone the way that someone who really is excluded by a gendered pronoun is harmed if one is misapplied. In a related vein I hope they don’t use “guys” to refer to a roomful of people. The English language provides many useful collective nouns, from the Southern “y’all/all y’all” to “folks” to “team” and beyond.
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 3:53 pm Came back to read more replies and I should have thought of the effects on a trans person for whom it’s really important to be he/him or she/her. Appreciation for those who raised this issue. Bottom line, care enough about the people you work with to know if they have a preference and follow that.
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 11:46 pm Thing is, OP said this is a senior exec. A lot depends on how many people are in the senior exec’s purview and how many levels they are above Sarah (or whoever may be mentioned). The senior exec might never have had a direct conversation with Sarah, and be recognizing her contribution because her manager’s manager’s manager asked them to. My company has 20,000 employees and the EVP over my department oversees about 300. I don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation that someone should know every person that well if they don’t manage them directly.
Dinwar* November 8, 2024 at 12:17 pm It’s been done for several hundred years, and is standard English (since at least the 1300s, but written usage lags pretty far behind verbal usage so it’s probably significantly older). Further, it’s a risk-averse option–“they/them” works for anyone, whereas gendered second-person pronouns can be tricky. Executives are going to avoid risk the same way bees avoid rain and beavers run towards water; it’s their nature. On the whole, I wouldn’t consider this a significant issue. It falls within typical English usage so there’s literally nothing to complain about. It might be mildly annoying to some, but not something worth spending political capital on.
Bitte Meddler* November 8, 2024 at 5:24 pm Agreed. I am 58. I’ve used singular “they” my entire life, even when I knew the person’s gender. It’s what I was taught and it’s an ingrained habit. Meaning, I’m not intentionally avoiding misgendering someone, it’s just a word I use so I don’t end up saying the person’s name a bajillion times when talking about them.
pizza* November 8, 2024 at 12:37 pm I think the exec is trying to be neutral/inclusive without taking the time to look up every single person and remember their pronouns. Only so much time in a day …..
Head Sheep Counter* November 8, 2024 at 12:41 pm I think policing this would not turn out the way you’d like. This is clearly an attempt a using non-gendered language. Its not a bad attempt. In general, if someone is addressing a group, why would they get into more detailed pronouns? Unless you wear badges with pronouns its not likely that a person is going to remember all of the nuances that a group could provide. Defaulting to non-gendered isn’t an insult. Its being inclusive but not in the way you like. That’s ok.
Moon Muffin* November 8, 2024 at 1:50 pm I don’t plan on policing this at all, just wanted to open the discussion and learn different points of view.
Best Coke Ever* November 8, 2024 at 12:59 pm “I also wouldn’t bother addressing it if I was called “they/them” the odd time”. I think that sums it up well – really not an issue at all
Tired* November 8, 2024 at 1:24 pm Also some people (like me) cannot remember names well, and adding pronouns is another level of problem – I’ve worked with people for 25+ years and sometimes their names are just a big blank in my brain. pronouns are in some ways even worse because of the rudeness/perceived deliberate offence some people perceive when another gets it wrong.
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 3:58 pm Replace “pronoun” with “name”. Would you be offended if you had told someone your name was Tired and they continued to call you Awake and Alert? If they got it wrong the first time and you corrected them, you’d hope they would remember. The third or fourth time you might not be so patient. On any given day they might not know that you had been called Awake and Alert 10 times already that day and you just want everyone to remember that you’re Tired, so they might not understand why you snapped at them.
carrot cake* November 8, 2024 at 7:03 pm That’s not a good argument. Tired, Awake, and Alert are all unique from one another. Pronouns are not. I mean, come on. Do you really expect everyone to know everyone else’s pronouns all the time? Are you able to achieve that?
Sandwich* November 8, 2024 at 1:37 pm I probably wouldn’t even notice this, to be honest. I see from other comments that using “they” for trans people can be a microaggression, which is good to know. I would have thought “they” is like “Ms” in that it is inclusive of all marital statuses. In this case, since they’re doing this for everyone, it seems unlikely that it is a microaggression and they’re just using a general pronoun that can apply to any gender.
Mad Harry Crewe* November 8, 2024 at 7:03 pm Taken entirely without context, your assumption is reasonable. However, in the real world, a lot of people have arrived at using ‘they’ for trans folks they’re uncomfortable with, or hateful towards, and let me tell you – we can tell.
Msd* November 8, 2024 at 1:37 pm I think people used “they” long before its use was associated with the whole transgender/“which pronouns” issue. Now it’s became such a hot button for people. Also, there are many many names in other languages/cultures that do not indicate gender to English/US people. Sheila vs Anwal. “They” seems to be a pretty low key way to bypass the issue.
Drought* November 8, 2024 at 1:44 pm Transgender people don’t use they typically. It’s usually used by non-binary people.
Enby's Mom* November 8, 2024 at 6:08 pm Non-binary people may or may not consider themselves transgender.
Dinwar* November 8, 2024 at 2:21 pm First documented use was in the mid-1300s. Given that this is still well within the Middle Ages, it’s reasonable to assume that written usage followed verbal usage by a lot. That usage remained at least present in print (it never was dominant but it wasn’t uncommon either) until present day. It wasn’t controversial (outside the normal circles where linguistic oddities become controversial anyway) for about 600 years. Not until the LGBTQ+ group started using it the way that it had always been used, and bigots decided suddenly that 600 years wasn’t enough time to make something proper English (a language which, I must emphasize, is defined almost entirely by use; the concept of “proper” English itself is not without controversy). I geek out a bit about language. Comes from too much Tolkien in my formative years. And this “controversy” is something I’ve looked into a few times. Got a friend who’s a dean of a university’s literature department and she and I discussed it at length a few times (yes, I’m a geek).
Agnes* November 9, 2024 at 9:33 am Genuine question, not snarky. I’ve heard people say this a lot. Of course, “they” has been used for a single person for a long time when the gender of the person is unknown or irrelevant. “Go see who’s at the door and ask them what they want”, “Each student should bring their own pencil”, etc. Are there examples of using a singular they for a known, individual person in Jane Austen, for instance? “Mr. Darcy lives at Pemberley and they have a big house” “Elizabeth and their sisters live in the village”, meaning Mr. Darcy or Elizabeth only?
Dinwar* November 10, 2024 at 2:53 pm Mansfield Park, in reference to a male doctor (sort of anyway). “Had the Doctor been contented to take my dining tables as any body in their senses would have done…” There’s also examples in Shakespeare, The Canterbary Tales, Patrick O’Brian’s works (which use period-accurate diction), LOTR (which is based heavily on ancient modes of speech with non-hobbits and contemporary English speech with hobbits), and others. I’ve seen some uses of it in published letters, but I don’t have those handy. This is how I usually see it–where the gender is either indeterminate, irrelevant, or unknown. Sayings, or when referring to situations where SOMEONE had to be referenced but it’s impossible to know who, that sort of thing. If you knew the gender you typically used it, but not always.
Qwerty* November 8, 2024 at 2:05 pm There was a bit push a while back to use “they” more and normalize it. Not just for gender identity, but to break with norms on typical gender roles. If someone is used to always saying “he” when referring to a developer or manager, that person subconsiously associates those jobs with being male. I’m frequently the only female in my department and was very used to being referred to as “he” out of habit. It also used to be pushed as gender neutral if you don’t know someone’s pronouns. If you are working with a hundred people regularly, it is tough to remember all their names. You definitely will not remember names plus pronouns. I think it is important to remember that with changing times comes conflicting advice. What one group pushes as non-offensive can be considered offensive by another group.
Galaxiid* November 8, 2024 at 2:43 pm I very occasionally do this when speaking and I don’t know why. It’s like I talk too quickly for my brain to keep up, and instead of using a he or she pronoun, I’ll default to they. But when I catch myself doing it, I don’t keep using it in that conversation. Also, somehow it never happens in a conversation where the person I’m speaking about is present—it’s like their presence is a visual reminder somehow. Since the exec is repeatedly doing this, I’m guessing it’s a conscious decision, which puzzles me so much.
LMS manager* November 8, 2024 at 4:04 pm I wouldn’t expect a senior exec to track the pronouns of all their employees. It seems respectful to me to use they/them.
DJ* November 8, 2024 at 5:23 pm In the past if we were emailing/writing to a unit e.g. finance, IT I used to say Dear Sir/Madam but now say Dear Finance, Dear IT as a greeting. For example Dear IT (when raising a request or problem) I’m having problems accessing X program/site, when I try to it shows up Y message (see screen dump). Could you please fix it. Kind regards….
NobodyHasTimeForThis* November 8, 2024 at 7:41 pm Is it happening in an organic way or a forced way? I have always said things along the lines of “Pat is going to the store tomorrow, can they pick anything up for you?” It was really common in the area of the country I grew up in to use “they” as a singular pronoun until maybe the last decade and now they pretend it was never a thing. It could be the standard way they speak or have always spoken. (dang I did that accidentally – it is that routine for me)
Chirpy* November 9, 2024 at 1:36 am When my company does it (in memos talking about personnel changes at corporate), it really reads like they just did a cut/paste of the person’s name and forgot to change the pronouns on the template. But they’ve also made it fairly clear that the company isn’t great on LGBTQ+ related anything (they do nothing more than they legally have to) so it’s fairly obviously not an attempt at inclusivity. I’d say that context matters.
Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow* November 9, 2024 at 2:03 pm “they/them” is grammatically correct for everyone and has been used for centuries. I generally like its use, both for execs with 100s of people under them who likely can’t remember everyone’s pronouns and for people like me who worked in engineering R&D areas that are 95% male and soon got fed up with “he/him” being the norm. If the exec uses it for everyone, or at least everyone outside the small group he knows well, then it helps avoid misgendering and it’s positive. However, if someone uses it only for gay or trans people then it’s almost certainly intended to other them and to be hostile.
Professional pants for petite pregnant people* November 8, 2024 at 11:19 am Any suggestions for comfortable, affordable pants for business-very-casual environments for petite pregnant people with curvy (not chubby, more thick/muscular) legs? The commenters here have been reliable in offering recommendations in the past. Also looking for cold-weather outfits that conceal rather than reveal as I don’t work in a pregnancy-friendly company. Thanks in advance!
Keladry of Mindelan* November 8, 2024 at 11:23 am I have a similar build to what you described and had a lot of success with Motherhood Maternity and Old Navy. Granted, the product of said pregnancy is now a third grader, so things may have changed, but I’d start there. In terms of outfits which conceal, dresses/slacks with long, loose cardigans are helpful. Also, any accessories (shoes, necklaces, earrings, scarves, etc) which draw the eye paired with dark tops/dresses.
Still Not Squid* November 8, 2024 at 11:10 pm Seconding Old Navy! Also had good luck with stuff from Target’s maternity line.
Aloy* November 8, 2024 at 11:49 am I’ve had good luck with Halara! Their pants have a lot of stretch and they have several work appropriate styles. They also continue to fit well postpartum.
Genevieve* November 8, 2024 at 1:19 pm If you’re still early enough (or lucky enough to not show too much for a while) you can always keep wearing regular pants (especially if they’re looser) with an extending device. There are a few different kinds – I think Bellaband was the one I had. Pro tip – if your pants have a button, you can always do this in a pinch with a hair tie and a long camisole! ThredUp was also a good source of work maternity clothes, especially the second time around after Motherhood Maternity closed its actual store near me.
AGS* November 8, 2024 at 1:23 pm I’m 5’1 and I had good luck with Gap petite maternity pants and also Old Navy. I also got some things from H&M for work – I’ve found that pants described as “ankle” – like a 26 or 27 inch inseam or so, works for me as a full length pant to wear with flats. I agree that an open long cardigan works well – especially if you have all black underneath a brightly colored one. The black on black can make it hard to see a bump and the cardigan color would draw the eye to something else.
Genevieve* November 8, 2024 at 1:34 pm And scarves! I was always a big cardigan/pashmina person, so it worked well for me. I just kept one at my desk when it was cold and wrapped up. Bonus: will also cover food stains (I’d like to say that was a pregnancy problem only…it certainly got worse with the growing belly, but it was a long-standing issue for me).
No Tribble At All* November 8, 2024 at 2:04 pm Target maternity pants, and big poofy sweaters. Just don’t walk too quickly. You want things that are a-line or boxy. (Hid a pregnancy at work til 20 weeks, but I was also kinda round to start with, so most of my blouses were non-belly-snug anyway)
BigLawEx* November 8, 2024 at 10:46 pm OMG I trained for a bunch of races right before getting pregnant, so at 5’3″ had this exact problem. I had really good luck with OldNavy and Gap maternity if you’re in the US. This was 15 years ago…if not in stores now, check ThreadUp or similar. For the other answer, maybe Free People? They have a lot of oversized tops that can hide anything.
Professional Pants for Petite Pregnant People* November 9, 2024 at 2:18 am Thank you to everyone who took time to comment–Kelady of Mindelan, Still Not Squid, Aloy, Genevieve, AGS, NoTribbleAtAll, and BigLawEx as of now–plus anyone else who chimes in on my question. I was looking for info I hadn’t found on my own and you all came through. Several brands I wasn’t familiar with here and I will check them out. Will experiment with the outfit suggestions also.
Professional Pants for Petite Pregnant People* November 9, 2024 at 2:23 am Thank you to everyone who took time to comment–Keladry of Mindelan, Still Not Squid, Aloy, Genevieve, AGS, NoTribbleAtAll, and BigLawEx as of now–plus anyone else who chimes in on my question. I was looking for info I hadn’t found on my own and you all came through. Several brands I wasn’t familiar with here and I will check them out. Will experiment with the outfit suggestions also. (This is the updated version of my comment)
DawnShadow* November 9, 2024 at 6:38 am If you’re still looking at these, 25 years ago when I was pregnant and watching my budget to the point where I had no money at all to buy maternity clothes, I was able to make do for a long time by leaving my pants unbuttoned and unzipped and using a pair of suspenders to hold them up. I covered everything with a very large sweater. That way I could still use the clothes I already had until I was 6 months along and my mom bought me maternity clothes for Christmas. I was amazed at how many people I saw every day at work who were surprised to find out I was pregnant when I came back from break in maternity clothes (and 7 months along). They just thought I’d gained weight.
BigLawEx* November 9, 2024 at 2:22 pm Oh, maternity shops used to (probably still do) have an elastic band just for this. (So they don’t fall down). It was perfect up until about 24 weeks.
Professional Pants for Petite Pregnant People* November 11, 2024 at 3:26 am Thanks for the suggestions, DawnShadow and BigLawEx!
cmdrspacebabe* November 8, 2024 at 11:22 am Is It Weird To Draw My Coworkers? I have long been (affectionately) known in my office for doodling during meetings. During the 100% Remote Era, this escalated to drawing little portraits of coworkers who had their cameras on during meetings. Now, however, we have gone hybrid and I am back in the office… with a notebook full of drawings of my colleagues. It grows increasingly likely that someone will notice this, and I’m starting to wonder if this is going to look like some kind of boundary issue. So… how creeped out would you be? Relevant factors: the portraits are small, casual pencil sketches of people’s faces. Some are people I work with regularly; others were just present in a meeting at some point. They are generally recognizable as the subject, and not unflattering (no caricatures or rude speech bubbles). There are generally more than one per page and no clear pattern of gender/age/race/attractiveness/whatever, so it’s clear I’m not obsessing over any particular person or set of traits. I also have no management responsibilities and have positive relationships with all my colleagues. Thoughts?
Tio* November 8, 2024 at 11:24 am I would think it’s a little weird tbh. Just because it means you’ve probably been looking intently at my face. Can you get a new notebook and start maybe doodling celebrities?
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* November 8, 2024 at 11:26 am Slightly creeped out, yes. I am also concerned that people would think you were slacking off sketching instead of doing your job. I would be less creeped out if there were other things in there besides people – office plants, the view out your window, etc.
Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)* November 8, 2024 at 11:26 am I’d be creeped out if you hadn’t asked permission first. It’s like taking a photo of your coworkers – nothing essentially wrong with it but you don’t do it without consent.
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 11:41 am This. I’d immediately feel self-conscious and weirded out that you were looking at me so intently that you could draw me. I don’t think I’d be as weirded out by a drawing of the CEO. I think that’s because there’s an assumption of somewhat anonymity at work, whereas the CEO comes closer to a public figure. Of course, the CEO might have other ideas, so I’d stick to drawing something else.
aspirational yogurt* November 8, 2024 at 2:50 pm Same. Don’t draw me without asking… and accept my “no” answer.
CT* November 8, 2024 at 11:27 am Honestly, it depends on how much I liked the person and what other vibes I got from them. It could be cute or creepy. I’m leaning towards cute now, but if I were you I’d try to keep it to myself unless your sure your colleagues wouldn’t mind.
Tippy* November 8, 2024 at 11:43 am Yeah, this is true. I’d probably think it’s a little weird regardless but I have a lot higher tolerance for weird when I like the person and haven’t been weirded out by them in the past. I’d probably just get a new notebook, tbh.
Nonanon* November 8, 2024 at 1:35 pm Yeah; incredibly subjective to the person you were drawing and your relative relationship with them. I understand both “huh, a little creeped out by this” and “wow, super flattering!” (an aside, but there was an artist near my university who would sometimes draw people they saw sitting at coffee shops and give them their drawing. They had drawn a couple of my friends having a conversation; one thought it was cool, one thought it was weird. A lot of subjectivity and honestly for something like coworkers, I’d keep it to myself; easier to avoid a coffeeshop or brush off something from a stranger vs “oh god Prudence is drawing me and I have to present the TPS reports with her tomorrow is this going to be weird”)
cmdrspacebabe* November 8, 2024 at 1:55 pm This just reminded me of a video I saw of someone doing a life drawing of a stranger…… except they demonstrated this by taking a very zoomed-in video of said stranger from across the street and posting it on Instagram. ?????? Hence some of my concern: clearly some people have VERY DIFFERENT IDEAS about privacy boundaries, and I would like to steer clear of the ‘deeply creepy’ side of that spectrum.
Dark Macadamia* November 8, 2024 at 2:05 pm Yeah, my first impulse was that I would be weirded out but then I remembered last year a student did this during class and gave me the drawing. I found it very charming and it’s still on my bulletin board. But also this was a child, and just one sketch – I think having it be an adult, a coworker, and the fact that there are apparently a lot of them is what skews this toward creepy.
Angstrom* November 8, 2024 at 11:31 am Just as some people don’t like to be photographed, some won’t like being drawn. I understand that an artist’s interest may not be personal — it can be about “That light brings out some interesting curves on your face” or “I was trying to get the texture of your hair” — but some may find it intrusive.
I'm A Little Teapot* November 8, 2024 at 11:39 am I would find it weird. I may or may not say anything to you, but I wouldn’t view it positively. At best, it would be neutral. I would recommend doodling something else. Animals?
Lurker* November 8, 2024 at 11:43 am Great question! While you’re obviously not doing this maliciously in any way, if you think someone might notice it might be better to draw things other than people. People might not care, but there’s a small chance someone will if they notice it so it’s probably better not to. That’s just my opinion though, others may have different thoughts
Caramel & Cheddar* November 8, 2024 at 11:48 am I would get a new notebook, just so that you have a clean slate to start from if asked about it. Plus as someone who likes to sketch, you know that new notebooks are a joy! I don’t think this is that weird, though I work in the arts and I feel like the odds of someone doing this in a meeting I’m in are more elevated than other sectors. I think there’s a difference between doing it in a virtual meeting vs in an in-person meeting, though; no one knows you’re doing it in the virtual meeting, which makes it feel a bit voyeuristic, whereas in an in-person meeting someone would have the opportunity to ask you to stop if they were uncomfortable with it. I don’t know that I’d see it all that differently from drawing boxes or bubbles or whatever else, to be honest. That said, I think if this is something you want to continue doing, I’d focus not on getting good likenesses of your colleagues but on using it as an exercise to hone form/proportion/shape/texture/whatever.
Chauncy Gardener* November 8, 2024 at 11:56 am Can you possibly leave the notebook at home and get a new one for the office? I do think this has the capacity to weird people out.
Cyndi* November 8, 2024 at 12:00 pm I have an illustration degree so I may be a little skewed on this–I had it drummed into me for years that daily observational sketching was important to skill building, not that I ever actually got into the habit of it. (Maybe that’s why I never got good at figure drawing.) Anyway I think this is the kind of thing that’s not weird to do in itself, but becomes weird if the person finds out about it.
The Prettiest Curse* November 8, 2024 at 12:19 pm I would get a new work notebook and focus on drawing inanimate objects or animals in future in-person meetings. You drawings do sound very cool (and as someone with zero artistic skill, I’m impressed with anyone who can draw) – but I think there’s just too much potential to weird someone out here.
call me wheels* November 8, 2024 at 12:35 pm I used to doodle classmates in my big lectures but never anyone who could find out about it, I stopped when I moved to smaller classes and it would have been more obvious. I think it’s less “creepy” per say but more like it’s not good to make people feel noticed and observed. Im working on improving my art atm and one of my friends has a good eye for when I’ve zoned out and started observing how the light falls on her arm or similar and always complains so I try not to do that now. So it definitely bothers people even if you’re not drawing at the moment. Maybe doodle inanimate objects instead or patterns if you have to do something ?
Best Coke Ever* November 8, 2024 at 1:02 pm I’m sure you don’t mean it to be, but yes, it’s definitely weird to have a notebook full of drawings of your colleagues.
I should really pick a name* November 8, 2024 at 1:14 pm Did you draw these on a notebook that also contains work notes? If so, get a new notebook, put the one with doodles in a drawer, and only pull it out if you need it.
A Library Person* November 8, 2024 at 1:16 pm I’m glad you asked this question, because my personal response would be to find it somewhat charming (assuming this is more along the lines of a doodle and not a serious life study). However, that is clearly not the prevailing opinion!
cmdrspacebabe* November 8, 2024 at 1:49 pm Right?? I had a feeling I wasn’t quite aligned with the general population, but the “pls do not” contingent is nearly unanimous! I’m glad I asked, clearly my concern was justified :P
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 4:05 pm One of my brothers was an artist, which may be why my first thought was, “Oh, I’d ask if you would give me the one of me” because I love a good sketch. I’ve had roles that put me very much in the public eye, though, which may also have influenced that thought. As a manager I think I’d feel you weren’t paying enough attention to the meeting topics if you were doing a good job of observing someone and rendering their face in a recognizable way. Different attention level than doodling random squiggles, and a notebook full of faces is a notebook full of evidence that you weren’t taking notes.
juliebulie* November 8, 2024 at 3:52 pm I agree, I think I would find it amusing. Which is odd because I loathe being photographed. But drawing takes real interest, time, and effort, so maybe that’s why I find it more flattering (my face was worth the effort) and less off putting than photography. In the example where the sketcher gives the finished drawing to their subject – which I think is also fine but understand why some wouldn’t like it – that sounds charming to me, but that is quite a different situation because the artist is not keeping the drawing. I can definitely imagine how it would look to some people if they found out you were keeping a secret notebook full of their likenesses.
DannyG* November 8, 2024 at 6:25 pm I’m with you on this. My father was a talented, self taught artist who worked in oils, pastels, water colors, and pen & ink drawings. He did lots of doodles and sketches in the margins of things and I only wish I could find on of me in there. My first thought was to give the drawings to the subjects as a gift. Obviously, not everyone agrees.
Kay Lehman* November 8, 2024 at 1:39 pm I’d be pretty creeped out and uncomfortable with that. It would make me feel self-conscious and worried that I was being watched. It would make me awkward and on edge around you.
cmdrspacebabe* November 8, 2024 at 1:45 pm Thanks, everybody – this is really helpful! :) I had a feeling I needed a reality check – I’m not at all self-conscious about that kind of thing (I think I would actually enjoy it if someone did it to me!), so it didn’t really occur to me as an issue until we started going back to the office. I think most of my immediate team would find it charming since they already know me and my doodling habits (I was surprised how many people remembered and brought it up after 4 years remote!), but the chances of someone feeling weird and just not wanting to speak up seem pretty high. And to clarify: yes, these drawings are on work notes that were clearly taken during meetings. The faces are just in the margins. A dedicated portrait sketchbook of just my coworkers would be pretty weird even for me :P
juliebulie* November 8, 2024 at 3:55 pm That actually sounds much more benign than what I was imagining, which was full-page renderings.
cmdrspacebabe* November 8, 2024 at 4:41 pm Lol – I was trying to keep the question from getting too long, but didn’t realize in my trimming that I’d cut out a pretty important detail! :P
Coasterchick* November 8, 2024 at 6:14 pm I actually had a co-worker draw me at work once and then give me the drawing. I was thoroughly creeped out. Now much of that was that the co-worker was creepy, but even if they weren’t I’d still have found it unsettling.
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 6:57 pm You don’t consider them caricatures or unflattering. That doesn’t mean the person seeing themselves how you see them would think the same. A lot of people prefer to keep a mental image of themselves that’s a little younger, or a little thinner, or more masculine or feminine, or more put-together than they really look. Sometimes walking past a mirror unexpectedly is more unflattering than a caricature could ever be. Leave the doodle book at home. It’s a recipe for misunderstanding and hurt feelings.
Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow* November 9, 2024 at 2:13 pm I’d be charmed – unless the sketches were unflattering to some coworkers. I’d ask for an autographed copy if you sketched me :) btw, I’m someone with a face that was not pretty even when young, but I’m just not bothered by it ::shrug::
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 11:26 am A few weeks ago, I wrote here about how my husband was told to expect a job offer from my employer a month from now and that we were on pins and needles waiting for/hoping it would come through. Well, it has! He accepted the offer yesterday with $10K more than he was expecting to receive and a bumped up start date so that he can leave his current company sooner. We’re thrilled, and it’s going to be so fun to commute in and home together :)
WoodswomanWrites* November 8, 2024 at 6:05 pm What wonderful news. Thanks for sharing it here so I can cheer for you both.
Classically Ambigous English Prepositional Phrase* November 8, 2024 at 11:26 am Regarding the proposed overtime rules-anyone have thoughts about the possibility of it going through? https://www.askamanager.org/2024/04/the-white-house-has-proposed-new-overtime-rules-that-could-increase-your-paycheck.html
Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 8, 2024 at 11:28 am I’ve got a letter on this coming on Monday but in a nutshell – it’s currently being challenged in court, and if a court puts it on hold it’s very unlikely to survive once the new administration comes in. If courts don’t stop it, it’s scheduled to go into effect January 1, while the old administration is still in charge, and would be much harder for the new administration to roll back afterwards (still possible, but would change the picture a lot).
Classically Ambigous English Prepositional Phrase* November 8, 2024 at 11:34 am Thanks for the info! I’ve been crossing my fingers for it to go into effect, but a court challenge makes me feel pretty pessimistic about the chances of it happening.
carrot cake* November 8, 2024 at 7:08 pm “would be much harder for the new administration to roll back afterwards” —– Good!
SeeYouSusan* November 8, 2024 at 11:30 am I have been on the job hunt and it is going really well – so well, in fact, that knock on wood I expect an offer is coming my way within the next week. I am ruminating on how exactly to give notice, more specifically if I am asked why I’m leaving or if there is anything my current company could have done or could do now to make me stay. I have a variety of reasons why I am leaving but I firmly feel the ship has sailed and I am not interested in turning this into a counter offer situation. And I also do not want to burn any bridges in case I want to come back in the future. So I am at a loss of what to say that doesn’t open the door to negotiation from my current job but is not standoffish.
Alex* November 8, 2024 at 11:33 am You can just say “I enjoyed working here but thought it was time for a change and I’m excited about this new step in my career.” Keep your tone friendly but don’t give too many details.
Generic Name* November 8, 2024 at 12:06 pm Make up some bullshit that sounds neutral and plausible. I had various issues with my last company and just didn’t want to work there anymore, and I said that I went to industry because I wanted to get out of consulting. “This opportunity just fell in my lap and was too good to pass up” is a classic for a reason.
Tired Librarian* November 9, 2024 at 7:52 am Whenever I have left specifically for a new job, I’ve tended to spin it as a bit of a ‘I wasn’t really looking, but I happened to see this amazing opportunity that I couldn’t pass up going for…’ Obviously not necessarily true, but a bit of a way of saving face if you don’t want to get drawn into a longer conversation.
CareerChange* November 8, 2024 at 11:31 am Hi all— I’ve been thinking something over that I’m conflicted on how to navigate. I am a mid thirties woman in a field that starts out 70/30 women to men in lower level jobs, then is about 50/50 in mid level jobs and 15 women/85 men in executive/top level jobs. I mentor other women in the field I’ve managed in the past and also will always take networking calls or coffees with younger people to pay it forward for everyone who was so generous in helping me get where I am (at the to of the mid level tier and just below executives). I have a good answer for the most part to how I got where I am and adapting it to changing norms except for two things— one, a big reason for my success/where I am now is having never been pregnant as that is something that often sets women back and or halts their career progression and two, I know I don’t have what it takes to make the leap into that 15% at the top level so I’m desperately trying to change industries. It feels cowardly to admit these things but also disingenuous if I don’t share? How would you acknowledge the systematic issues without discouraging younger people of all genders to continue in the field?
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 11:37 am I work in an industry that is similar. You can and should call it what it is. You aren’t doing anyone any favors by covering it up. Women know that the Mommy Track is real, and if they don’t, then someone needs to warn them about it asap so they can make an informed decision. Same with breaking into the 15% of the top level- be honest that you rarely see women in leadership. Give the mentees your honest experience, and trust that they have the intelligence to adapt this information and apply it to give themselves the best results possible. Oh, and tell men about this too. It’s amazing how many men I’ve worked with that didn’t realize the leadership was all/mostly male, but when you point it out they’re horrified about the lack of equality.
Hlao-roo* November 8, 2024 at 11:46 am I think those two things are important to highlight, and I also understand why it’s a bit tricky to do so. Taking the second part first, I think it should be easy enough to say, “I can help you get as far as [mid-level job titles] because that’s where I am, but honestly I don’t know how to go from here to [executive/top level jobs].” You can choose whether to share that you’re looking to change industries or not. I don’t think that’s cowardly, just realistic. For pregnancy, I think you if you make the following points: – you were able to reach [position] by [age] because you have never been pregnant – you don’t agree with pregnancy delaying/stopping career progression in [industry], just observing that it happens frequently – you aren’t advocating for career progression/no kids over career stagnation/kids (or vice versa), just acknowledging it’s a choice women in [industry] are stuck with – you see this [changing/not changing] in industry in the near future I think most people will take it well.
DisneyChannelThis* November 8, 2024 at 2:03 pm Off the record be up front about it (offsite, at a coffee shop). In a panel setting or otherwise on record (company email) talk in circles around it. “I was fortunate to not need any medical or other large times of leave, this let me push through some barriers in the gender gap” is a solid slide around saying ‘this industry discriminates against pregnant women’ . You can also point to changes when talking to young people. When I started at company X we only had 1 woman on the board, today 4 of the 12 board members are women. That’s a good way to express concern to them without totally being discouraging. It also can help steer them toward looking into those statistics themselves when choosing a company.
Qwerty* November 8, 2024 at 4:29 pm If the facts discourage people from continuing in the field, I am ok with that. A huge reason is hearing that things aren’t that bad downplays the realities of the situation and can make women feel like they are the problem. I’m a manager and have previously held a director position – what I heard from earlier career women was they feel validated when I am honest that it sucks but I can’t imagine being happy in any other field. I know I have made things easier for those who come after me but there’s a lot of crap in my industry. If smart talented women feel like they want to use those talent’s elsewhere, I fully support that. I regularly debate leaving my industry but I love coding too much so leaving would feel like punishment.
Teapot Librarian* November 8, 2024 at 11:32 am I am considering quitting my job so that I can dedicate my time and energy to getting a nonprofit organization off the ground (and funded!!). Obviously I am in an incredibly fortunate position to even be able to consider this, but if you have done something similar, what did you consider when determining if you were able to do it? E.g. how many months in savings did you have? Health insurance? Other factors that I might not be thinking about? And what effects of the upcoming federal government transition should I be worried about? (That is, effects specific to this question.)
MsM* November 8, 2024 at 11:39 am I assume you’ve researched the space you’d be entering and whether there are already groups doing the work or that you might want to approach to see if they’d be willing to take it on with sufficient support before you start a whole new entity?
Teapot Librarian* November 8, 2024 at 11:43 am Yes! We’re actually a few years into our work but it’s getting very clear that we aren’t going to make real progress unless I’m able to dedicate much more time and energy than I have while working at my day job.
MsM* November 8, 2024 at 11:47 am Great! I think the federal considerations are going to depend on what issue area you’re in (although I think it’s wise to expect fewer government grants in general), but there are lots of groups hosting webinars over the next couple of weeks on what to expect.
Collaborate* November 9, 2024 at 9:14 am I had the same immediate thought. It’s always better to give the money to a place with a good rep already doing the work so more money goes to mission and less to overhead.
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 11:42 am Haven’t started one but I ran one and watched other people start nonprofits. My questions are more about the doing of the work, not the financial factors you listed, and you may well have worked through all of this already and not need my thoughts. My personal response to many of those start-ups I observed was that they could have been just as effective as programs or initiatives under an existing nonprofit and the founder could have dedicated energy to the cause, not to the paperwork and headaches involved with starting and managing an organization. The sheer amount of time to get approval as a 501(c)(3) may be affected by the transition. If you haven’t already thought about whether your mission is a good fit with another one, I’d suggest that as a potential step. You could always figure that a some point if it outgrows the home organization you can spin it off. Some places have a nonprofit that serves as a fiscal administrator umbrella for a variety of activities. Easier to get straight to the good you want to do if someone else handles the back office. Would you hope to receive federal grants to support the work? Take a long hard look at the likelihood of competing successfully for what may be a smaller or nonexistent pot. If you want to start it you obviously feel very strongly about it. This means a certain amount of your identity and ego are enmeshed in it. I say this as someone who has always “lived their work”: What will it mean for you personally and emotionally if it doesn’t get off the ground, or if it starts and then flops? Do you have the emotional resilience and supportive friends to get you through the intensity of start-up, the grind of maintenance, and the potential for failure? How well do you cope with setbacks? Is this something you need to work on before entering this phase? Good luck with the decisions and the work! I’ve been motivated by causes all my life.
Work-Related Civic Action for Public Employees* November 8, 2024 at 11:34 am Not using my real name for this one. A colleague yesterday put together a (lunchtime) meeting to talk about actions we can responsibly and legally take so that we can continue to do our jobs effectively as employees in a public agency. List they started below. What would you add? If you work in federal service your thoughts are especially valuable! Download resources. We saw this last time with climate scientists fortunately backing up key reports offsite. We’re going to identify essential online federal resources and ask our library to create an archive so we don’t lose access. Respond to rule-making at length with specifics. Federal rule-making responses put things on the record, including the potential harms. Create a record. Enlist others. In the world of transportation when tens of thousands of people commented on an update of the MUTCD it changed what came out as the final version. It mattered. Have to hope it still matters. Federal grant application strategies. Some may no longer be worth applying for. But if you know you could do good work in a district represented in Congress by a Republican it may still be worth applying. Get their letter of support, do good things for the people who live there. Keep creating good research, documents, and systems. Many, many things are still local or state-level decisions. From our position we create criteria for awarding grants, for example. We can apply an equity analysis as part of our criteria that’s completely justified by the data in our particular policy realm. What else??
Roscoe da Cat* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm I would say – if your work depends on a some type of federal work – be clear with your state politicians that this is a product you need. All too often, members of Congress and other politicians assume that something is worthless for the government to do because THEY don’t use it
Just a name* November 8, 2024 at 2:36 pm Download all of your personnel file info (SF-50, etc). It can be difficult to get after you leave.
Mazey's Mom* November 8, 2024 at 4:45 pm Maybe this falls more under “download resources” but if your agency makes the news (obviously for non-negative reasons) or contributes to the public discourse on a topic, or employees in that agency, have published books/articles/etc. or if they receive public recognition, I would save the links, citations, videos, etc. and make them available to your stakeholders. If you can show what impact you make, it might make it harder for them to ignore you. On the other hand, it could put you on their radar, and you might not like that attention, so it’s a crap shoot. But this information could also potentially be used when you apply for grants, and don’t limit yourself to just federal funding. Look at state and foundation funding too. Is there some non-governmental bigwig your agency interacts with who’s a friend to the incoming administration (i.e., one who has contributed financially to their war chest) who can provide a letter of support to funders?
Lady Kelvin* November 8, 2024 at 5:03 pm I also work as a public employee. We are also one of the agencies that are targeted for closure in Project 2025. Here are some of the things we have discussed this week: 1. How to codify protections for workers regardless of gender identify, race, religion, etc. at our workplace. 2. How to continue our DE&I work even if we are told to dissolve our group (it happened the last administration and we expect it to happen again) 3. How to code switch so that we can keep doing the important work we are tasked with without raising any concerns for the administration. 4. We have organized a group to start the efforts to unionize. It was something I have been considering for a while, and when I reached out to a few others I found we were all already doing different things to explore that possibility, so we are going to actively pursue forming a union at our line office.
Mad Harry Crewe* November 8, 2024 at 7:18 pm I am so touched by your comment and wish you the best of luck and strength in numbers in your union efforts.
DJ* November 8, 2024 at 5:29 pm It’s going to be hard working for a federal govt dept after the election. Most public servants hold values for the common good, support marginalised groups and wish to develop policy and programs that make things better for people, not worse. So good you’re thinking of these issues early on. Can you extract and store key records containing essential research, policy, facts, history, good programs etc etc somewhere else in case there is an order to destroy records.
ElastiGirl* November 9, 2024 at 1:27 pm I am deeply heartened by this thread. Thank you to all you public employees fighting the good fight so smartly from within the castle walls.
Deanna Troi* November 10, 2024 at 9:31 pm I don’t have anything to add, but I also work for the federal government with the MUTCD and grant administration, so perhaps we know each other. Thank you for taking these actions and doing the best you can to continue to do good work that benefits the public.
HugeTractsofLand* November 8, 2024 at 11:34 am Someone new just started at my workplace, but my workplace is a bit of a mess right now. Should I flag the interpersonal issues now or let her come to her own conclusions? There’s an ongoing investigation against our boss instigated by coworker #1. Boss and coworker #2 have been badtalking coworker #1 since before the investigation even started (it’s partially why the investigation is a thing!). Boss is keeping things very professional as far as I can see, coworker #1 has had chances to share their perspective but hasn’t so far, and coworker #2 is training the newbie. We really need this role filled, which is I think why everyone’s on good behavior, but biases are going to jump out at some point. Do I stay quiet? Make it clear that I’m available for questions?
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 11:46 am This is tough. Part of me says thinks that telling Newbie would be introducing drama where there potentially is none, but part of me worries that Coworker #2 could bias Newbie in a way that is unfair to both Newbie and Coworker #1. I think it would be good for you to form your own relationship with Newbie. It’s a great practice anyways, just for someone to have more than one person that they can go to with questions (at my work, our onboarding includes 3 designated people that the newbie can go to with questions, not including the coworkers on their team). That will give you a way to monitor the situation, and you’ll have the trust built with Newbie if you ever end up needing to say something. *I’m assuming you’re neutral to what’s going on with Coworker #1 and Coworker #2/Boss
Genevieve* November 8, 2024 at 1:30 pm This!! Don’t rush in with the information, but help the person the way you would anyone else in that position. If/when Newbie notices something off, you can casually validate that there’s awkwardness and answer questions (even if it’s with “I can’t really give you all the details, but yeah, there’s stuff going on there. Best if you stay professional!)
ChemistryChick* November 8, 2024 at 11:48 am I would stay quiet about it, myself. Let them come to their own conclusions, especially if the parties involved are currently playing nice and the newbie is getting the training they need to be successful.
Admin of Sys* November 8, 2024 at 11:50 am I would stay quiet – if everyone does manage to keep to good behavior, then bringing it up early is going to just add fuel. If you see some of the biases creep in, you could mention there’s interpersonal conflict happening, and try to counter any unprofessional behavior – but if everyone is being professional, then saying there’s hidden conflict is just gossip.
Turingtested* November 8, 2024 at 12:13 pm When I’m training people, I normally say something like “If you have any questions about anything, feel free to ask me even if it’s a little weird.” Often they ask about office dynamics and politics and I do my best to give a neutral but informative response.
Chauncy Gardener* November 8, 2024 at 1:14 pm I would stay quiet and professional. Help the newbie as much as you can. I think if you proactively say something, you’re actually generating drama, not responding to it. The investigation may even be somewhat confidential since it involves personnel, right? Good luck!
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 3:00 pm Assuming there’s nothing (or at least nothing major) that would directly affect them and their jobs, I would let them figure it out for themselves.
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 7:04 pm Stay friendly and be open to questions, but don’t try to lay it all out for them. IME, the first person to glom onto a newbie and dish on all the problematic dynamics is usually a shit-stirrer and not to be trusted. Not saying that’s you, but they may think that of you.
Chronic Illness* November 8, 2024 at 11:35 am For folks with chronic conditions that require flexibility how do you manage the work load and communication of availability? My condition is new and we are still working through treatments so everyday is a bit of a new adventure. I have short bursts where I can function but then I have to stop and rest away from screens. Any suggestions? My office is to small for FMLA or anything state related but so far my company has been flexible with me and I have just been adjusting my duties and WFH. I am probably doing about 30% of what I normally do, and there are some activities that really do require in person work that is just not an option at the moment. I do have access to short and long term disability, but I wasn’t sure if that is worth enacting since I can work part time.
H.Regalis* November 8, 2024 at 12:00 pm Give yourself more time off than you think you’ll need, and give people longer ETAs than you think are realistic, like double the time if you can. Also, give yourself a break that you’re not able to be at 100% right now. Especially when a condition is new, it’s really hard to estimate things and you’re going to go slower than you did before and won’t get as much done. Recognize that even with meds and treatment, if the condition you have is chronic, it’s not going to go away. No matter what you do, you’ll still have days where your symptoms are way worse than others. There’s no magical combination of treatment and time management you can do so that you can get everything done you did before and also never feel like shit.
Chronic Illness* November 8, 2024 at 12:21 pm Thanks for this especially the reminder with your last line.
LMS manager* November 8, 2024 at 4:20 pm I’m in that camp and my condolences for joining the team. It took me a bit, after beginning treatment, to figure out how much I could get done. Also, the emotions of the diagnosis – grief, sadness, anger – took up energy. Eventually, I settled into a cadence of treatments. I know when my higher energy periods and lower energy periods land in that cadence and I structure projects accordingly. YMMV, but I have control over that and I also WFH. I’m also experienced in my role, so I’m generally more productive than the average person in my role. My suggestion is to give yourself some time to figure out your new energy (or “spoons,” look up spoon theory). You’ll figure out what works for you. Best wishes with the treatment!
DJ* November 8, 2024 at 5:35 pm Good that you can WFH. And sounds like you can do flexible hours. Both WFH and flexible hours (especially if unrestricted e.g. no bandwidth, no core hours) can really help with managing a chronic health condition. But if doing WFH and flexible hours isn’t enough perhaps it might be worth applying for short-term and long-term disability (not sure what the rules are) so that you can go part-time for a period whilst getting your treatment right and adjusting to living with and managing your condition. But get legal and financial advice first especially around the implications of working part-time if you decide to go down this route short term. But if you could go part-time, your organisation would employ a short-term part-timer to pick up on some of your work.
ecnaseener* November 8, 2024 at 11:36 am Continuing a previous conversation from yesterday that got locked, I guess because it went too far off topic: We were trying to figure out why people commonly believe that it’s illegal in the US to ask job candidates about car ownership. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy suggested it might be because car ownership could be linked to socioeconomic status. But… as far as I can tell, it’s not illegal to consider socioeconomic status in hiring decisions either! Where does it all come from?? Just bad PR implications or is there something I’m not finding in search results?
Alex* November 8, 2024 at 11:40 am Maybe because it could reveal a disability that could be used to illegally discriminate? Although I personally have never heard of this question being illegal so I don’t really know.
J* November 8, 2024 at 11:57 am This is my understanding as well. It’s also worth noting that for the most part, no question is illegal to ask; but it is illegal to use certain information in hiring decisions, and the best way to ensure (and prove) that isn’t happening is to not ask in the first place.
Hibiscus* November 8, 2024 at 6:16 pm A disability, criminal record (DUI, just got out of prison, suspended or revoked for whatever), stigmatizing poverty (like red lining applicants based on their address). People will do all sorts of things to try to discriminate against others as a way of sussing out “fit” or consciously or unconsciously maintaining a certain image in their workforce. I didn’t drive for 10 years because I didn’t own a car–my car died and honestly I was too depressed (and had bad credit) to buy another. I did get asked at my review about the car thing that year and I did say “ha ha, didn’t get a DUI or have epilepsy–I just thought I’d try the bus system for a while and I live close enought to the office and stores to walk to work.”
Tippy* November 8, 2024 at 11:51 am I think a lot of people just don’t have a clear understanding of what is truly considered as discrimination in a legal sense vs discrimination in a social sense. Coupled with the fact that some states/municipalities may have even more stringent rules than the feds it can get a little confusing. And all of this is assuming it’s US based which isn’t a given.
Admin of Sys* November 8, 2024 at 11:54 am I think many people jut misunderstand what is and isn’t legal during job hiring, and fall into if q then p logic traps. The chain of thought I usually see is : the laws are to protect disenfranchised / marginalized people from being discriminated against during hiring. Many marginalized people are poor due to systemic issues. Therefore, asking about socioeconomic status is a secret way to keep from hiring marginalized people, and must be against the rules.
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 12:04 pm I’d guess one of two things: 1) Socioeconomic status has a lot of overlap with actual protected classes, particularly race. 2) People who don’t own cars may have disabilities that prevent them from driving, and should not have to disclose those disabilities (unless applying for a driving job, which is a different problem). So that might have some overlap with both disabilities and age-related protections. People also tend to conflate “you can’t use this info in your hiring decision” with “you can’t ask about this”, usually because once you know info about someone it’s hard to not factor it in.
Msd* November 8, 2024 at 2:47 pm It seems odd to me to ask questions that are illegal to use as factors in hiring decisions. Why would you ask about car ownership if you weren’t going to factor it in your hiring decision? Just making small talk?
Nightengale* November 9, 2024 at 12:08 pm what’s interesting is, I suspect most people asking the question don’t equate not having a car/not driving with disability, unless maybe the person is known to be blind. I no longer drive due to non apparent disability factors and outside the disability community, people don’t seem to make the connection unless I draw it out for them very clearly. Mostly everyone is just assumed to drive/have a car
H.Regalis* November 8, 2024 at 12:14 pm I think it’s because a lot of people think they know more about the law than they actually do, and don’t have a clear sense of the legal vs. colloquial meanings of words. Also, law is incredibly complex and not intuitive, legal writing is not easy to read, laws vary from place to place; and even within that, there are all kinds of things to consider like does your local municipality actually enforce certain laws or not, which judge do you have for your case, etc. There really are not easy answers for legal questions. I’ve talked to a lot of smart and/or well-educated people who have assured me that XYZ thing is illegal when it’s not, or that there are phalanxes of lawyers out there who will take your case for free because ZOMG what your boss did is AgAiNsT tHe LaW!!!1 and that’s not how our legal system works.
H.Regalis* November 8, 2024 at 3:56 pm Thanks, WellRed! That’s a really nice thing to say ^_^ I also wanted to add that I get why people tend to react in these ways. I’ve heard some truly horrific stories and hearing those, you want so badly for the people who did wrong to be punished and stopped from hurting more people; but there aren’t actually phalanxes of lawyers running around who will take your case for free, and bullshitting yourself that that is so because you can’t bear to know that there is injustice in the world isn’t going to help anyone.
Ashley* November 8, 2024 at 12:25 pm Why would you need to own a car for a job? This question would be a red flag for me as a candidate. I could be leasing a car or have an arrangement where it is a parents or partners car. The relevant questions to me surround reliable transportation to work or if they need to do out of office meetings a conversation about transportation to those. I could accomplish that without technically owning a car.
H.Regalis* November 8, 2024 at 1:00 pm I think a lot of people, at least in the U.S., would interpret “Do you own a car?” as being equivalent to “Do you have reliable transportation?” If you own a car but it’s on cinder blocks in your driveway, that’s not going to be useful.
A Library Person* November 8, 2024 at 1:22 pm Every time this has come up for me, that’s been the phrasing: “Do you have a reliable source of transportation?” It’s also worth considering the woeful state of public transit in a lot of US places- even some of our major cities.
H.Regalis* November 8, 2024 at 3:52 pm That’s how I’ve seen it phrased too, “Most have reliable transportation” and the like, and if someone asked in a job interview if I had a car, I’d assume the same meaning.
Charlotte Lucas* November 8, 2024 at 1:04 pm I once considered applying for a job as a process server. You definitely needed a car for that.
ecnaseener* November 8, 2024 at 3:15 pm Lol I’m not arguing in favor of asking candidates this! But it’s legal.
Parenthesis Guy* November 8, 2024 at 12:30 pm “Federal law does not prevent employers from asking about your financial information. But, the federal EEO laws do prohibit employers from illegally discriminating when using financial information to make employment decisions.” https://www.eeoc.gov/pre-employment-inquiries-and-financial-information#:~:text=Federal%20law%20does%20not%20prevent,information%20to%20make%20employment%20decisions.
ecnaseener* November 8, 2024 at 3:17 pm Oooh, thank you, this is what I couldn’t find! And that page even mentions car ownership as an example of financial information.
Irish Teacher.* November 8, 2024 at 1:17 pm I would imagine the assumption comes from the fact that it is very likely to lead to discrimination, either due to employers assuming the possibility of a disability or thinking of socioeconomic status and I think people are often more optimistic than they ought to be when it comes to discrimination, in the sense that they believe they have more comeback than they really have. Now, I don’t think it would make sense to completely ban asking if somebody can drive since there are jobs where driving is necessary – bus driver, taxi driver, etc – but it is a question that could be used to discriminate against people and I suspect there is a sense out there that hiring is meant to be “fair” (look at all the people who post here asking “what did I do wrong? I thought I did a great interview but didn’t get the job. Is it because of this very slight misstep I might have made?”) and that there are things in place to ensure it is. So basically, I suspect it comes from people, probably not consciously, but at some level thinking, “I wonder how they ensure that employers give the jobs to the best candidates and not just to the ones they like. I guess there must be some laws or something.”
Nonanon* November 8, 2024 at 1:42 pm Seconding; it’s one of those things like “do you have kids.” Sometimes innocuous, can be used for discrimination, the illegal aspect is “we won’t hire Waleen because he has a kid and Jane doesn’t,” not the question itself. “Do you have reliable transportation”? Yeah, sure, you can’t do a job if you can’t actually get there, but that reliable transportation could be a private vehicle, public transport, taxi, bike, whatever. For positions where driving is required, my understanding is employers would ask about licensing; “are you legally able to drive in the state of New Oklahio” vs “do you have a car”
Irish Teacher.* November 9, 2024 at 1:03 pm Yup, I travel to work by train. I think there were…maybe 3 times in the seven years I’ve worked in the school that I was at risk of arriving late and I think once that I did – was maybe 5 or 10 minutes late. As one of my colleagues said, “sure, you’d have that many times that you’d have traffic issues when driving anyway.” And yeah, “do you have a driver’s licence?” or “are you legally allowed to drive?” makes more sense for positions where driving is a requirement.
Hlao-roo* November 8, 2024 at 2:22 pm There’s a previous letter (“Jobs that require car ownership” from June 16, 2016) where the answer to is it legal for job ads to require a reliable vehicle is: It’s perfectly legal, though, unless it can be shown to be having a disparate impact on people of a particular race or other protected characteristic and there’s no genuine job-related need for the requirement. If it’s legal for a company to require a “reliable vehicle” than I think it’s also legal for a company to ask candidates if they meet that requirement. I’ll link to the letter in a follow-up comment.
Hlao-roo* November 8, 2024 at 2:22 pm The letter is #2 at this link: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/my-manager-is-coaching-my-new-running-group-jobs-that-require-cars-and-more.html
Bike Walk Barb* November 8, 2024 at 4:23 pm No doubt you’ve read plenty of good advice here about interview questions being directly relevant to job functions. Good reason to ask a job candidate about car ownership: Because the job’s essential duties require driving and you don’t supply a vehicle for them to use (in which case you should also be describing how you reimburse them for vehicle use for work purposes). Any other reason to ask wouldn’t be work-related and you don’t need to know the answer. If your question is about transportation, that isn’t a car question. Autocentrism is alive and well and acts as a biasing filter. I work in a public agency that for a long time had “Valid driver’s license” as one of the minimum required qualifications. This was the case on so, so many jobs, most of which had absolutely nothing driving-related in the functions. This meant that no one with a disability that prevents them from driving could get past the first screening of applications so it built in a bias against certain disabled applicants. I and others went to work on this and now you have to justify it if you want to include a driver’s license requirement if the need to operate a vehicle isn’t inherent in the job functions. Your comment about considering socioeconomic status in hiring raises all kinds of red flags for me. That carries a lot of embedded bias. How does “My ex doesn’t pay child support and I’m living in poverty so I can’t afford a car or dental care” relate to their ability to do the job? Or for that matter “I’m so lucky to be the third generation benefitting from inherited wealth so yes my haircut did cost more than your dress”? Consider what is serving as a proxy for something else and whether you can unpack that to eliminate unnecessary barriers to entry.
RussianInTexas* November 8, 2024 at 5:37 pm In the US, have never heard of it being an illegal question. None of the questions are illegal, anyway.
Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow* November 9, 2024 at 2:27 pm If the place of work is more than say 2 miles from a bus or train stop it could be reasonable to state this in the interview and ask how the employee will commute to work e.g. if the site is isolated and some past employees have struggled to reliably get to work by the required time. If it’s hardly ever been a problem, I wouldn’t ask.
Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow* November 9, 2024 at 2:29 pm imo it’s unfair to potential employees not to mention if your workplace is difficult to get to other than by car
Katie Porter's Whiteboard* November 8, 2024 at 11:38 am How do you keep up morale during a job search? My field is pretty small so competition is always pretty stiff. I’m fortunate enough that while my current situation is unpleasant enough that I want to move on, I like a lot of my coworkers and it’s pretty stable. But at the same time, I get so tired and a bit hopeless when an application/interview doesn’t pan out because I know it could be 4-6 weeks before I even get the chance to apply for another position.
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 11:53 am I used to buy a lottery ticket every time I turned in an application. I figured that one way or another, I’d eventually get lucky. It did help keep my spirits up.
Cadillac* November 8, 2024 at 11:40 am Hello! I am soon to be hiring for a junior role in my team. They’ll be an operations associate in a tech company department, managing department calendars, reminders, helping to make sure important things are done correctly and processes run smoothly. And where appropriate areas for process improvement and carrying out those improvements with input/supervision from me. My question: has anyone here ever included a task/sample as part of an interview process for a role like this? What did it look like, and what did you seek to find out from it? I’ve hired for roles with more tangible deliverables before and found (well-defined, brief) tasks very valuable. But can’t think of a task that would get at what I’m looking for, which is someone who keeps themselves organized and uses good communication and good judgment to keep others organized without making enemies.
academic lab manager* November 8, 2024 at 12:48 pm Perhaps giving them a SOP for a procedure you’d expect them to be familiar with and ask if there are any ways they would improve it or break it down more for someone new to the process?
Paint N Drip* November 8, 2024 at 1:46 pm maybe you can draft a sample ‘to do list’ and ask the applicants to rate the urgency or manner in which they’d address the items – wouldn’t be tasks that they can’t do without insider knowledge, but you can get a feel for their logic, how flustered they might get, if the list is immediately longer than they can emotionally handle, etc.
curly sue* November 8, 2024 at 11:43 am I work at a large university in Canada, and our HR department just announced that they’re changing their name to “People and Culture,” in order to “help us to support and lead strategic initiatives, improve collaboration, and continue to build and foster an inclusive environment and culture of belonging …” (among other bureaucratic bafflegab.) … if this were April, I would assume this was a late April Fool’s Day joke, honestly. Is this a new trend, either in higher ed or the private sector? Or did someone hire a Very Convincing Consultant and get taken for a ride?
J* November 8, 2024 at 11:50 am Definitely a trend. HR at my workplace has been slowly rebranding to the People Department and it got fully official this summer.
Caramel & Cheddar* November 8, 2024 at 11:53 am People and Culture is a really common rebrand for HR departments, so I don’t think it’s a new trend or the result of Consultant Brain. Well, it might be Consultant Brain, just not Consultant Brain that is unique to your school. I assume it’s supposed to be friendlier than “Human Resources” because that title makes us all sound like widgets in an assembly line or something, but I’d bet big money that changing HR to People and Culture will not result in the things their bafflegab said it will. It’s a coat of paint, nothing more.
curly sue* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm Oh, 100%. We’re desperately trying to survive wildfire cost-cutting, skeleton crew departments and a hiring freeze for everyone except upper administration; this whole thing feels like someone’s painting the deck of the Titanic.
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 11:55 am Trend. I know a couple mid-size corporate companies that now have “People” departments. It includes HR, L&D, and occasionally admins or office managers (depending on their org structure).
Name* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am Some companies have a Chief People Officer instead of Chief HR or Chief Personnel.
Name* November 8, 2024 at 12:13 pm LOL I know Apple names their HR person the “people officer”. Not sure who else does.
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* November 8, 2024 at 12:20 pm Yeah – “Chief People Officer” instead of VP of HR is very much a thing these days. Coin flip about whether they are just spending $250,000 on new business cards and mission statements, or whether they are actually changing any policies that affect the rank and file.
curly sue* November 8, 2024 at 3:36 pm I know where I’d put my bet. And my foot, on occasion. Surely we have better things to spend money and time on.
Yorkshire Tea Lady* November 8, 2024 at 12:20 pm Trend. I’m in higher education in the UK and the “Director for EDI” is changing to “Director for People and Culture”
Best Coke Ever* November 8, 2024 at 1:09 pm This is extremely common in the tech world at least. My company has had a Chief People Officer for over a decade. But does it really matter? You may be new to the working world but this kind of stuff is pretty common
curly sue* November 8, 2024 at 1:43 pm Wow, rude. I’m a humanities professor in my mid-40s; just because I haven’t encountered this particular form of nonsense before doesn’t mean I’m ‘new to the working world.’ I’ve just spent my time dealing with a different dialect of administrative buzzword. As to whether it really matters, perhaps not. But I was curious to know if we were leaders in the field of nonsensical departmental rebranding. I am incredibly un-surprised to find out we’re actually ten years behind. (That part is actually very on-brand.)
Best Coke Ever* November 8, 2024 at 2:25 pm I’m sorry, you’re right that was rude – I didn’t mean to come off like that. But yes all I meant to say is that in corporate land, these kind of buzzwords are pretty common. Like in sales people are sometimes called “Customer Success Specialists” instead of salespeople
Chauncy Gardener* November 8, 2024 at 1:31 pm A trend for sure. “Chief People Officer” is now a thing. Yes, I’m rolling my eyes HARD over here in the US
Hazel* November 8, 2024 at 1:56 pm Local Very Large School Board just did the same, and school boards aren’t usually cutting edge!
Global Cat Herder* November 8, 2024 at 1:56 pm Very common in all kinds of companies. About 30-40 years ago, it gradually went from “Personnel” to “Human Resources”, and in the last ten years it’s changing over to “People & Culture”.
Corvus Corvidae* November 8, 2024 at 3:11 pm My company switched over to People and Culture a few years ago. It felt… unnecessary? We did a feedback survey a few years after the change and 90% of the company didn’t know that the change happened/had no idea what the People and Culture team did.
Anonymask* November 8, 2024 at 3:57 pm Yeah, our HR team is called “People Services” so this is just the way things are heading. …If they actually did things to service the people that work here, I might not be so BEC about it.
Hastily Blessed Fritos* November 8, 2024 at 7:21 pm I work at a company you’ve definitely heard of (not quite Fortune 100 but not too far off) and we’ve had P&C for years. It’s just the corporate buzzword du jour.
Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow* November 9, 2024 at 2:33 pm All this rebranding of HR – it was “Personel Dept” when I started work – reminds me of the UK habit of renaming e.g. nuclear power stations and prisons after sufficiently embarassing incidents :)
Cat* November 8, 2024 at 11:50 am I am a high school English teacher. It is very common for my freshmen to forget what they read. I know many of you are readers…..any suggestions? I incorporate choice texts, modeling class strategies, etc., but I need strategies for kids to remember last night’s reading of the class novel. Obviously many are not actually reading, but I know forgetting is actually an issue. I also not looking to overwhelm with work. Some strategies I have suggested: put a bookmark halfway down the page to remind your brain to engage, write a question or comment every 1/2 page. Any other suggestions? writing something every half page ruins the flow for a lot of kids so I don’t wanna require anything like that for this particular assignment
J* November 8, 2024 at 11:54 am When I was that age in school we had to annotate as part of reading homework. It wasn’t graded beyond yes/no, but was meant to get kids in the habit of underlining important points, marking stuff they didn’t understand, etc. This was just in paperbacks we got to keep or in printouts—obviously wouldn’t work with textbooks that have to be used year after year. Alternate that doesn’t involve marking up books: everyone has to turn in one question they had about the reading, any question goes.
me* November 8, 2024 at 12:09 pm +1 for annotation, and find some examples to show them of different ways to annotate. It took me a long time to learn to do more than just highlight sentences / paragraphs, but once I figured out a method that worked for me, it worked really well, to the point where I didn’t remember at all what I had read for homework, but when the professor called on me I could open the book, quickly find the information I needed, and intelligently answer her questions. alternately, have them make a summary / outline of what they read with what they think is important or interesting
Nightengale* November 9, 2024 at 12:23 pm PLEASE don’t make people underline. I find it almost impossible to read text that I or someone else has underlined (or highlighted.) It effects my ability to scan text. I am otherwise pretty much hyperlexic. I am still grumpy at teachers who made me underline in high school as a universal strategy. (Trying it out on a handout sure, but not to make someone do it in a book if they say it doesn’t work for them.)
Not* November 8, 2024 at 11:55 am I would like this for my own career. Reading emails. There are things I need to know and I forget or I miss items after the first one. Can the suggestions for reading comprehension/rentention be used universally? Please let me know!
Not Tom, Just Petty* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am …Tom, Just Petty. Thanks, touch screen for submitting for me.
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm My 6th grade teacher had us write a sentence summarizing each chapter. We had to write it as soon as we finished the chapter, and it had to follow this format: [Character] wanted [Thing/Outcome], but [Challenge that stood in the way], so [how the character tried to address that challenge]. I still use that formula to this day. Also- focus on the outcome rather than the mindset. You can’t force kids to mentally engage with the book (I’m a voracious reader, and I hated some of the required books. I will forever hold a grudge against Brave New World). What you can do is tell the kids how you’ll be grading, and expect them to meet that. Example: “You need to read Chapter 3 over the weekend, and on Monday I’ll ask you to write a paragraph on who your favorite character is and why. You will need to quote the book at least once in you paragraph. Now repeat that back to me- what will that paragraph be about? That’s right, your favorite character. And how many quotes do you need? Yep, at least one.” That way the kids know what the bare minimum looks like and they can pull themselves up to that level.
Name* November 8, 2024 at 12:36 pm That’s a great idea (outcome rather than mindset). I also like that sentence structure to summarize. Thanks for sharing!
Talk about it* November 8, 2024 at 12:07 pm Is there any way to gamify the knowledge? like maybe have a contest for Previously on Of Mice and Men and then get a kid to recap the last reading assignment. the class could score them and then whoever has the best recap at the end of the week wins a prize.
sb51* November 8, 2024 at 2:24 pm Oh, fun tv-announcer-style recaps is a great idea. My only problem as a bookworm teen was that I never, ever got the hang of noticing chapter breaks, even if I put in a bookmark or something, and so I’d end up reading too far and then be worried about spoiling stuff because I couldn’t remember where that chapter ended. But that’s not the problem most of them are going to have.
JustaTech* November 8, 2024 at 5:28 pm I was chastised for this repeatedly in late elementary school. Later on it stopped being such an issue because I was better at identifying things that would be spoilers, and because I was less and less engaged in the books I read for school, so was happy to stop Tess of the D’urbervilles at the end of the chapter. (Don’t worry, I transferred my reading energy to fun books.)
Forensic13* November 8, 2024 at 2:54 pm Oh I love this. Stealing it for cajoling college freshmen into reading.
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 12:12 pm Check in on content. What are they struggling with, and why? Is it something like Shakespeare where there’s a lot of new and unfamiliar vocab and format? Or is it a book they’re struggling to relate to? I recall a classmate of mine saying that when they first read Jane Eyre they haaaated it because it was so over their head, and then when they came back to it 3-4 years later it became their favorite book because they could relate so much more. If your whole class is struggling to remember what they’re reading, that to me is a class-wide signal of “this is failing to catch my interest and attention”. Now, part of English to me was learning to appreciate and understand books that didn’t catch my interest and attention in the first place, but at that point you need to switch from normal reading to active reading. If someone is forgetting what they’re reading, then there’s no normal reading flow going on to interrupt in the first place. Encourage annotating! Have them use sticky notes to write down questions, comments, thoughts, relevant quotes.
Alton Brown's Evil Twin* November 8, 2024 at 12:23 pm Book-club style questions that are chapter by chapter? I’m not sure if these are spoon-feeding or not, but if your goal is to have them remember and get involved in the text, maybe it doesn’t matter. “Think about why Character X lied to Character Y in chapter 4 – was it because they were embarrassed or because they have a scheme that will play out later in the book?”
noname today* November 8, 2024 at 12:49 pm I used to have the kids complete a graphic organizer for each chapter. Included; Title of book Chapter #/name New characters added/characters who are the focus Main thing that happened (plot wise) Main thing that happened (theme wise) Thing you liked/hated (optional) Open questions (optional) Other options include having them sketch out a quick movie poster/storyboard cell for that chapter—worked well for the visual learner
homework buddy* November 8, 2024 at 12:56 pm I help a now 9th grader with her homework. She also has problems retaining what she reads as a school assignment (i.e., pre-judged as boring). The thing that seems to help her comprehend books that don’t interest her is to say: what would you tell your friend this page/chapter/book is about in plain language. So maybe assign a one- or two- sentence plain language summary of each page (or other division) of text. Then in class, use those to spark discussion, like “who thinks Odysseus is an arrogant jerk playing fast and loose with the lives of his men?”
Charlotte Lucas* November 8, 2024 at 1:10 pm I guess this is why they made us do book reports in grade school. (I hated them, because I love to read and wanted to get to my next book, not give a summary.) I second annotations and summaries. Also, have them write questions they have as they have them. This could also help with class discussions.
Irish Teacher.* November 8, 2024 at 1:29 pm I wouldn’t ask them to write something every half page, but I would definitely ask them to write someting every chapter or two. Like “read the next chapter and rewrite it from the antagonist’s point of view” or “read the next chapter and write the letter/e-mail the character sends about y” or “read the next chapter and then write what you think happens after that” or “read the next chapter and write a newspaper article on the events of it.” Or it doesn’t have to be writing. It could be “read the next chapter and draw the scene described” or “create a poster for the event that takes place in it.” The assignments don’t have to be long ones either. It could be “read the next chapter and write a text message from x character to y character” or “read the next chapter and create a title for it” or “read the next chapter and create a headline for a newspaper article about the events.” I would always be careful about asking students to read on at home without requiring some written assignment or other activity because if they don’t have to “prove” they’ve done it, a lot won’t. A lot of students will even say to me, “but you didn’t give us any homework last night” if I only give them reading or learning work. And keeping the assignments more creative requires them to really engage. Things like “write a question” or “write a synopsis” can often be done by just skimming over, but stuff like writing the antagonist’s point of view on events or making predictions about what will happen next can’t really.
Dark Macadamia* November 8, 2024 at 2:19 pm I teach sixth grade and these are some things I do: Explicitly teach and model metacognition. Stuff like talking to the text, think aloud strategies, context clues, etc. Identify a couple specific skills that are really important to your class (analyzing tone? interpreting symbolism?) and use the same process every time so it becomes a habit. Guided annotations. This can be a lot of work up front for you but doesn’t have to be used every time, more like “here’s what your brain should be doing, now keep doing that without the guide.” I have OneNote pages for each chapter as well as bookmarks (vertical half page) so students can choose a format. Example: They’re reading a paragraph where education is compared to planting a garden. Annotation guide has them complete the sentence “The author compares ___ to ___ in order to __.” Or if it’s a digital and editable document, the guide could say “Highlight the sentence where one thing is being compared to another. What do you think the author is trying to express here?” with a space to type their response. This would be like 5 things per chapter, 1 thing per page, or whatever makes sense for the amount of reading and what you want them to take away from it. I find it really helpful for getting them to focus on the right things whereas “summarize the chapter” or “annotate important lines” can be too broad and cause them to miss the point.
Drought* November 8, 2024 at 3:31 pm I’d ask the kids who are struggling with memory where/how they are reading. If they are reading their book. My guess is the ones struggling with memory are stopping to jump on Tik Tok every few minutes. This is surprisingly still a problem with many of our new college grads. They can’t seem to stay focused on a task and constantly distract themselves with browsing.
Qwerty* November 8, 2024 at 3:45 pm Part of it is that they need to learn to read for *understanding* rather than completing the task. Rushing through to the end or putting on the audio book then multi-tasking will let say they read but without actually processsing the information. Some options for them to try. Each kid will be different: – Slow down – Write down a summary of the chapter / segment when you finish to solidify the memory. Read this before class to refresh your memory – Take notes while reading – Put little sticky notes in the book to annotate points. Write a couple words on the sticky note so you know why/what it is pointing to My Honors / AP English classes all had us do impromptu writing assignments during class where we had to argue a point or discuss a topic from the book and include quotes, so the sticky notes were great for quickly finding key items. And knowing that we had to use the information meant we remembered it. By junior/senior year we’d be quoting the book at each other without having to look at our notes. Finally – make sure there is some form of assignment or graded item at the end of the book so there are rewards/consequences. Brains need to be incentivized to remember things – if the info is needed for a half-hearted discussion in class, then it might not remember. They need to use the knowledge, the same way that I have to practice algebra or calc to retain the day’s lesson.
Pinta* November 8, 2024 at 5:31 pm I was just reading something about the benefits of reading out loud even for older schoolchildren. Could you end each class by taking some time to read the first few paragraphs of the assignment out loud to “set the scene” for them? You could also highlight things that are going to come up so that they know what to expect and what to be alert for (“In tonight’s reading, Nick is going to learn something unexpected about Gatsby’s past; we will discuss this in the next class, please come with examples of how this new information impacts Nick’s actions.”) Not so much like a spoiler, but more like a teaser. (Maybe building up to a future assignment where they have to write a movie trailer – style intro to the reading?)
Hastily Blessed Fritos* November 8, 2024 at 7:35 pm Look up “color coded sticky tabs for books”. I loved using them in college. Students can use different colors for different things, and use them to mark specific lines without permanently affecting the book.
Nightengale* November 9, 2024 at 12:35 pm I see you are talking about not remembering the content. For a minute I thought you were referring to something I have noticed with my neurodivergent teenaged patients. They can’t tell me literally WHAT they have read. Like the name of it. Typical conversation: Me: How’s ELA going? Parent: not doing well on tests/assignments Me: what are you doing in ELA these days? Kid: silence or The Shrug, anyone who works with teenagers knows The Shrug Me: Are you reading books? Poetry? Writing stories? Working on grammar? Kid: Books Me: OK, so what’s the last book you guys read? Kid: I dunno Generally eventually the kid or the parent comes up with a book title or says something like “Greek myths” which then I can use as an example about different LD/ADHD friendly strategies to improve comprehension, test taking abilities, etc. Oh and this isn’t unique to English, the kids often can’t tell me what they are learning in science or social studies either. Yesterday I got “history” and eventually the kid was able to come up with, “The Stamp Act” which clued me in that it was Revolutionary Era US history. . .
ElastiGirl* November 9, 2024 at 1:56 pm “What happens next?” You have to know what happened in the last chapter to predict what’s coming. Keep track of predictions so kids can feel triumphant when they get it right.
BigLawEx* November 9, 2024 at 3:07 pm This is such an interesting question because I’m an avid reader and I have a high school freshman. At my age, I no longer care much about remembering what I read, but I’m much more likely to remember if: I’m listening to an audiobook while doing something else, or I read a paperback. I have found the sameness of reading on a Kindle makes it so hard to differentiate. No new fonts or paper types to help imprint. For my kid, he only reads paper/hardcover by choice. (My pocketbook has thoughts). He says it’s the only way he can remember. (Tangentially, there was a recent Dutch study on the impact of seeing artwork in person vs a reprint. The in person experience lit up more parts of the brain. I imagine the experience degrades the farther you get from a tangible item.)
CTA* November 8, 2024 at 11:54 am Question for US folks. For a student studying finance in college/university, when should they start looking/applying for internships? What happens if you wait until after graduation to look for an internship? I have a friend doing the last one and IDK how much that will be a disadvantage for them. They don’t have other internships on their resume. They have mostly retail/food service jobs for work experience.
Name* November 8, 2024 at 11:58 am As soon as possible. That said, it can be hard for someone who has to have a paying job do an unpaid internship. They need to work with their department and school’s Career Services on possibilities. It also depends on what they want to do with finance. They could get a paying job as a manager and work their way in to finance focused positions.
Name* November 8, 2024 at 12:06 pm Depends on the company and it’s not limited to finance. Some companies pay for internships, others don’t. If they do pay, expect it to be low paying and part-time so they don’t have to offer benefits.
Paint N Drip* November 8, 2024 at 1:51 pm Internships run the gamut in terms of pay, but in my limited experience finance and accounting internships are often paid – the student’s work can actually be helpful to the business (no offense to other interns)
Not Tom, Just Petty* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am I working in a financial company. My coworker’s kids start applying after freshman year. And they keep applying, because it’s no guarantee just because your parent works here. So yes, start early and apply to all that seem like a good fit, just like job searching. If your friend wasn’t able to do internships during school, but is able to do one or two after graduation, go for it. They will still be helpful for learning and for future job searches.
Retirednow* November 8, 2024 at 12:03 pm Finally, a question I am expert at! I taught in our college of business for many years, and for specifically for accounting and finance, many students look for internships either for their junior or senior years. Many finance internships at least here in California are paid so they are extremely competitive. So anything they can do to show that they have the skills. The internship requires – which often have to do with software proficiency, Attention to detail and multitasking – will be a help. They don’t need to have done internships before, but they need to show that they have the skills to set them apart from other candidates. I don’t personally know of any students who have successfully completed an internship after graduation except for those who are looking to be CPAs for which there are specific internships to help them get their hours.
CTA* November 8, 2024 at 12:04 pm Some more questions. How long is the interview process? Would it take weeks, months? Number of interviews? What is the length of an internship? 3 months? A year? Expectations for pay? Expectations for hours?
Name* November 8, 2024 at 12:08 pm Each internship is different as each company gets to decide how to do things. All that information should be found on the posting for the internship they’re applying for.
Chauncy Gardener* November 8, 2024 at 1:33 pm Absolutely as soon as possible. Does their school have a department to assist with this? They should get on this right away. Also, is there a reason they would look for an internship vs a full time job after they graduate? Normally here you do internships over the summers while in school and then get a job after you graduate.
Hillary* November 8, 2024 at 1:51 pm Freshman or sophomore year, unfortunately. Summer internships are where you get practice and many internship programs are for current students only. If they wait until graduation they’re either (1) limited in what internship programs are available or (2) competing with people who have relevant experience from completed internships. I’d encourage them to apply asap, even if it’s for part time in the spring. Especially if they’ve never worked in an office before. The good news is finance internships often pay better than food service.
Career Change?* November 8, 2024 at 11:56 am Short version- has anyone had an epiphany that maybe you’re in the right job, wrong industry and you should look elsewhere? I’m notorious for being stubborn even when life is giving me signs and I’m trying to figure this one out. Looking for advice or experiences. My story below. Backstory – I recently got laid off (public education and ESSER funding ended). I decided to go back to school to get a masters in my field (HR; degree is MLS – Labor & Employment laws). In one class, I mentioned that it was hard to move up in the business side of public education because they tend to promote campus admin who have no experience in HR to HR leadership. As a result, I’ve had to explain very basic concepts regarding FLSA, FMLA, HIPAA, Title XII, and more to executive leadership. Professor’s comments were that it was easier to teach campus admin HR laws than it was to teach someone in HR how to run a district. I also had a previous executive director who told me that I would never move up without campus leadership experience. I did but I had to go to another district. With those opinions, I disagree. HR in public education is not about running the district. It’s about complying with laws and employment policies, preventing the district from liability. I compare it to Finance. You wouldn’t put a principal in as Finance leadership just because they know how to run a school. Anyway, I’m trying to figure out if life is trying to tell me something or if I’m being stubborn again.
Not Tom, Just Petty* November 8, 2024 at 1:37 pm Sounds like you are ahead of your time. I have friends in education. We are middle Gen X. One friend is a “guidance counselor” (I forget her new, modern title, but it is in important to the story). In the 70s and 80s this was a job done by gym teachers who’d gotten out of shape. They were too young to retire and too old to play volleyball. They learned to read a calendar and navigate college/vocational school applications. They did not have the two master’s degrees my friend has. Now that position is valued for both educational and mental health knowledge and experience. This will be true for you in 10-20 when someone realizes that schools should be run like a well-functioning business and not “everyone pitch in and do everything because tax payers, parents and politicians don’t value us.”
Hillary* November 8, 2024 at 2:01 pm I think you might want to think about your framing. A leader’s job isn’t to be a subject matter expert, it’s to enable the SMEs. Plus hard skills are always easier to teach than soft skills. Compliance is important, but it’s also only one part of a leader’s role and the nuts and bolts can be delegated.
CommanderBanana* November 8, 2024 at 11:57 am This is a small gripe, but our (only) accounting person refuses to communicate over email. Twice this week she’s had questions about things that have been submitted to her to approve, and she emails either asking to be called or have someone stop by her office. We’re hybrid, and I’m often on trainings elsewhere in the building that I can’t leave, plus my team travels off and on.
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 12:03 pm That’s deeply annoying. It is so quick to just ask someone the question in an email, and she’s adding extra steps. Bonus points if you need to reference something that is on your computer, but you don’t have with you when you stop by her office.
CommanderBanana* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm It’s so annoying. She’ll send an email just saying “can you call me” or “can you stop by my office” and every single time it’s a question that can easily be answered over email.
Not Tom, Just Petty* November 8, 2024 at 1:40 pm I’m asking the following out of pure curiosity. I’m not suggesting you do it, I’m just shocked. This is such outlier behaviour, that I can’t believe it’s even happening. Have you ever said, “no, I can’t”? Like full stop without explaining that “I’m offsite today” or “I have meetings all day”? Conversely, have you replied, “I really need an email for my records”
Slow Gin Lizz* November 8, 2024 at 2:51 pm I mean, it’s not even petty to just say, “What’s your question? I’m in meetings all day today and tomorrow and if it’s something I can easily answer in an email that’ll probably speed things up for you.” That’s just basic business sense. But if you’ve tried that and she still refuses to answer, then could you maybe escalate to someone above you? I guess that depends on how much capital you have to gain, but I’m sure you’re not the only person who finds this annoying. (And I TOTALLY find it annoying; my old grandboss didn’t do this all the time but whenever she did, it bugged the heck out of me.)
Jennifer @unchartedworlds* November 9, 2024 at 8:54 am Or just “What’s it about, please? I may be able to answer over email.”
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 3:12 pm If she does this, make the visit or have the call, but then summarize in email right afterward what you both discussed when you get back to your desk.
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 3:14 pm As in: “Hi Jane, thanks for answering my question on W just now. Just to confirm, from our discussion, I will do X, Y, and Z. If I’ve misinterpreted or misunderstood, please let me know at your earliest convenience. Otherwise, I will proceed.” And if she responds with a “call me” or “stop by” again, keep doing the exact same thing.
Caramel & Cheddar* November 8, 2024 at 12:06 pm Is she trying to hide something? like as the accounting person, is there something she doesn’t want to put in writing?
CommanderBanana* November 8, 2024 at 12:47 pm No idea. I’ve definitely had HR “professionals” that would never put anything in writing or over Teams – they always wanted to “hop on a call” or “pop by your office” so they could lie to you or later lie about what they said, but I have no idea why a question about something on a vendor request or expense report would be something she won’t put into an email.
Blue Pen* November 8, 2024 at 3:10 pm A former boss of mine did this, even though nothing to my recollection would be confidential or controversial if put down in writing. It was very strange and very annoying because, many of the times, the conversations we had would’ve been better-suited to an email format because they were usually around action plans on how to address a problem we were experiencing.
JustaTech* November 8, 2024 at 5:33 pm My FIL was like this when he owned a business – he is a terrible typer and honestly not much of a reader, so like 80% of the emails he sent in response to questions by other people in the office were “call me” or “come upstairs”. He wasn’t doing it to hide anything; he’s just a verbal thinker, but man it looks bad when people are trying to dig up dirt.
Unkempt Flatware* November 8, 2024 at 12:14 pm I deal with this person right now in my job. I refuse to call her and have gotten bold enough (irritated enough) to simply respond with, “nope. I need it in writing like always.” and I copy her manager.
Chauncy Gardener* November 8, 2024 at 1:35 pm I second refusing. I would just say “Need it via email, as always” For a Finance person to not want things in writing??? That’s really weird. Wonder if there are other red flags there.
OldHat* November 9, 2024 at 1:47 pm Our purchaser is like this. He will summarize things in writing and documents the final result, so people are like this that are not trying to hide anything. I think he prefers to talk it out and gets bored and talking something out reduces his boredom. Even if the end goal or perimeters has already been set. The issue is that he makes ant hills into mountains. Or tries to rope me into things I do not care about. I care more that the vendor tells us when they will be doing the service and actually do it (usually they don’t show up, but last year they showed up unannounced at the end of the year to make up for service we canceled at the beginning of the year). I don’t care about it costing 70 versus 75 because selected a different payment option. I try to redirect him when it’s a Teams message. Asking what it’s about helps. But he will sometimes call unannounced and turns what has already been hashed out into 30 minutes. We overlap days in the office several days, so he likes to drop by. I’ve tried to voice preferences, like if I say no to wanting pens for my cubicle don’t give me a status update of who is saying yes to wanting pens. It’s reduced it, but it’s still a lot. I’ve focused on when he ropes me into long conversations about work things already decided. He does this to almost everyone, so I’ve approached this as this is a quirk. So it’s more on reducing this behavior rather than it going away.
8765* November 8, 2024 at 11:58 am My company is somewhat unexpectedly throwing noncompetes at us, every member, as a condition of employment. I’m talking with a lawyer once a final version comes out, but I’m terrified and feel like I’m screwed no matter what. Anyone fight a noncompete and win? I don’t know how likely I am to refuse to sign, get fired, and then get forced to sign a new one at a different job, and I just need something, good or bad.
Roscoe da Cat* November 8, 2024 at 12:02 pm I am not a lawyer, but I think, in the US, the courts have significantly limited non-competes. I think having a lawyer review it is a good idea. They may tell you that it is unenforceable and not to worry.
Pay no attention...* November 8, 2024 at 12:35 pm I don’t think it’s the courts — the FTC issued a rule on April 23, 2024 that bans non-compete clauses for most workers in the United States and there are probably legal challenges to the rule. They’ve been banned for years in California. But are the non-compete conditions reasonable at all — like don’t give proprietary information such as client lists and budget/sales numbers to a competitor — or would it prevent you from finding another job in your career/industry, or demand something that is illegal — like you promise not be a whistleblower on illegal activity? If there isn’t anything in it for you, or it’s so restrictive you could never get a job again, I’m pretty sure it’s unenforceable.
Career Change?* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm No experience but oddly, we studied this last week (getting an MLS). They are usually enforceable unless they require an unreasonable time period, geographic range, or other unreasonable restriction. Not sure if any of those apply here but you do have some options.
When Is Retirement?* November 8, 2024 at 12:05 pm The FTC issue a final rule on this last April (barring them) but it is being challenged in courts, in like 3 separate cases I think. Some states also have their own rules – maybe start there?
ferrina* November 8, 2024 at 12:08 pm Having a lawyer review is smart, but non-competes are not usually a big deal in the US. They are usually unenforceable, and unless you are high level or have access to very, very sensitive information, it’s rare for a company to go after someone for breaking a non-compete. I do know someone who broke a non-compete in a big way. She went to a company that was a very direct competitor, and she had a mandate to build them a product that competed directly with a product that she had built at Old Company. Old Company tried to sue, but New Company refused to fire her and just decided that for 6 months, she couldn’t work specifically for clients that she had worked for at her last 3 months at Old Company. She had to pay for a lawyer, but she didn’t lose the job. *Note that this is also dependent on the relationship between the two companies. In my example, the New Company didn’t care about pissing off Old Company (and it may have even been a bonus)
RagingADHD* November 8, 2024 at 12:20 pm Generally speaking, any contract, including a noncompete, must be accompanied by “consideration” in order to be valid. Remaining in the job you already have, with the same terms, does not count. Are you getting a raise or promotion in exchange for signing?
Not Tom, Just Petty* November 8, 2024 at 1:42 pm So, “hey, to keep your current job that you currently have at the same seniority with the same salary and benefits, you need to sign this potentially professionally hindering document,” might not be as simple as they think it is?
Rick Tq* November 8, 2024 at 12:36 pm If you or your company is in California they are illegal and unenforceable if you aren’t the owner of a company. Full stop.
TheBunny* November 9, 2024 at 1:39 am Reason #654946 I’m not leaving CA. Added about 500000 to that list last Tuesday.
Cynthia* November 8, 2024 at 11:59 am Hi everybody! I work as an academic librarian, in a technology-heavy position, and for various reasons I’m interested in pivoting to corporate work. I’m looking at going into data taxonomy, or maybe data governance and compliance, something along those lines. Does anyone have any recommendations for certifications I could pick up that would make me a more attractive candidate? General tips are welcome, too.
Damn it, Hardison!* November 8, 2024 at 12:55 pm ARMA, a professional association for records and information managers/information governance has certificate programs in information governance as well as professional certification. AIIM is an information management association that also has certificate programs. Good luck!
Salesforce help?* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm My workplace (a nonprofit) uses Salesforce for recordkeeping. I suspect it’s messier than it should be, and I’d like to learn more so that I can understand and communicate adequately. My role involves inputting and reviewing data kept in Salesforce, and making some recommendations about how it could better serve our staff/org. I know about Trailhead but it feels giant and I don’t want to sink in tons of time. Any specific recommendations for beginner/intermediate level courses?
Tech Industry Refugee* November 8, 2024 at 1:36 pm Try some basic admin Trailheads, they cover a lot of data: https://trailhead.salesforce.com/content/learn/trails/force_com_admin_beginner I use Salesforce every day and I still get lost in Trailhead. It’s confusing.
Slow Gin Lizz* November 8, 2024 at 2:07 pm Are you an admin? That is, do you have the privileges you need in SF to rearrange how the pages look, which fields show up, etc., or are you just a standard user? If you are an admin, I suggest specifically the SF trailhead badges that are recommended for the Salesforce Administrator Certification (I’ll share a link in another comment). I know you said Trailhead feels giant, but the ones specifically recommended for the admin certification give you a pretty good baseline as to how you can move stuff around, hide things you don’t need on the screen, and clean things up to make it easier for you and your coworkers to see the things you need. There’s a good trailhead on reports and dashboards too, which can help you review data more easily. If you are just a user and not an admin, I’d suggest meeting with your org’s SF admin and discussing which fields and objects are needed and which can be hidden. It’s pretty easy to do, you just want to make sure you have buy-in from others that what you want will work for them too.
Slow Gin Lizz* November 8, 2024 at 2:09 pm Admin trailmix: https://trailhead.salesforce.com/users/strailhead/trailmixes/prepare-for-your-salesforce-administrator-credential. You don’t have to take the certification test, and you don’t have to do all of these, but there are probably a few there that you will find helpful. And if you really do want to take a class, Salesforce does offer admin certification classes. I took one and it was really helpful, but if you don’t need to learn a lot of really in-depth stuff, the trailhead badges are probably all you need. Also: there are a LOT of YouTube videos about SF too, so if you prefer video learning to reading, check those out too.
CheesePlease* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm Being a good LGBTQ Ally at work I work for a mid-sized company where leadership leans more conservative (we’re a manufacturing company). I heard from a friend in a different department (they work in Teapot Sales and I work in Teapot Quality) that a member of their team announced that they would be transitioning, shared their new pronouns and asked for support / understanding as things change. I don’t work with this individual and already have enough basic human decency to use people’s preferred pronouns / names and correct others if needed, not care about what bathroom people use etc. But I would like this individual to know they have an ally in another department, and moreover that I think it’s a very brave step to share with a whole team about their transition (especially this week!!). I try to keep political stuff off my desk but can add a pin or something. Is there anything else that has helped you while you transitioned at work? We have employees who were employed after their transition, but none who have actively transitioned while being employed.
Elsewise* November 8, 2024 at 12:17 pm Can you put your pronouns in your email signature? It’s such a simple thing, but it can be a strong sign of support. A tiny pin or flag button, a safety pin, whatever sign you like- I promise you, queer folks are always looking out for those. A few years ago, I worked in a conservative industry, and I was the only out queer person in our entire department. A coworker sent me an email after some local anti-queer action, basically saying he was an ally and if I needed anything, to let him know. In a more friendly environment I might have read it as performative, but in the moment it meant a lot to me. It sounds like your coworker may not be out outside of their team, if you weren’t told directly, so it might not be something you want to reach out about, but if you do ever hear it from them, don’t underestimate how powerful a statement of support can be.
CheesePlease* November 8, 2024 at 12:37 pm thank you from your perspective. I don’t want it to be like “hey people are talking about how your trans” so I think waiting until I hear from them directly is smart. I think adding my pronouns to my email is smart. thanks!
Hlao-roo* November 8, 2024 at 12:24 pm Check out these two previous posts for tips: “how to get better at using a coworker’s nonbinary pronouns” from October 28, 2019 “ask the readers: how can we help gender transitions at work go well?” from February 13, 2020 Most of the tips from the first post won’t apply if this person doesn’t use they/them pronouns, but the tip to practice using a person’s new name and/or pronouns is good advice for any name/pronoun change. Links in a follow-up comment.
Hlao-roo* November 8, 2024 at 12:24 pm https://www.askamanager.org/2019/10/how-to-get-better-at-using-a-coworkers-nonbinary-pronouns.html https://www.askamanager.org/2020/02/ask-the-readers-how-can-we-help-gender-transitions-at-work-go-well.html
handfulofbees* November 8, 2024 at 12:35 pm I love that you want to support them, but I’m not sure you’re close enough to do much for this particular person. My thoughts would be to add the pin, and also just set an example of treating trans coworkers well, which it sounds like you’re already doing. Honestly just being around people who treat others with respect puts me at ease.
Cheese* November 8, 2024 at 1:51 pm I had a colleague that transitioned who I kind of know but don’t work with directly – I just responded to her email announcement with congratulations.
Hastily Blessed Fritos* November 8, 2024 at 9:04 pm A pin at your desk is frankly not going to be noticeable. And while trans people’s existence is currently being *politicized* it is not inherently *political*. You want to be an ally? Speak up for trans folks when you hear others say bigoted things. Be there for them so they don’t have to do all the work themselves. Don’t know what to say? Educate yourself, don’t ask trans friends to do it for you.
Dissertation Gal* November 8, 2024 at 12:01 pm Hello! I am a fourth-year student in the School of Professional Psychology at Spalding University in Louisville, KY. I am inviting you and others you may know to join in a study about how different factors influence how individuals perceive real-world stalking situations. To participate, you must be 18 or older and must be a resident of the United States. You may be asked to read a short pamphlet about stalking and then complete a questionnaire; this should take about 10 to 15 minutes of your time. Your responses will remain anonymous, and there is no penalty for withdrawing from this study at any time. If you are interested in joining this study and completing the questionnaire, please click the link below. Thank you for your time! https://spalding.questionpro.com/t/Aa8QtZ3EQ5
Singularity* November 8, 2024 at 12:02 pm A few months ago I asked about taking an accounting 101 course at my local community college, and I decided to do it. At first it was fascinating, and I’m still interested in the organizational aspect, but I am pretty bored with the actual data entry part. Which is kind of odd because normally I like making lists of things. The teacher wants us to learn all the basics, of course, so we’re doing all the calculations with a calculator and typing everything in multiple times. We’re not using actual spreadsheets or accounting programs yet. I was hoping some of you could give me some advice/insight here: 1: If I got a short term certificate, would the jobs I qualified for mostly be doing data entry? 2: If I got the certificate, how far could I learn/expand on the job before I needed to get a proper degree to advance in the field? In other words, where’s the ceiling? I’m not interested in making a ton of money, but I don’t want to get stuck really low either. I’m fine with being the person who does the low level work really well as long as it pays decently. 3: How do I figure out what accountants actually do all day? What else is there besides data entry? I tried a few searches, but I’m having trouble visualizing what they actually do. 4: Are there related majors/jobs that involve the organizational aspect without as much of the numbers? Maybe logistics or supply chain type jobs? I’m kind of torn about pursuing this. I’m in a place socially/financially where I’m currently doing fine, but there are several things that, if they went wrong, I’d be left floundering. So I feel an urgent need to get myself out of this situation, but everything that’s quick pays less than my current job ($17/hr), and everything that pays more takes a degree or certificate of some kind. I’m afraid that in the amount of time it takes to get the education I need, the crisis will hit. If so, then I might as well be taking classes in a field that’s more interesting (though I still don’t know which one I’d want).
Name* November 8, 2024 at 12:24 pm It sounds like the certificate is for basic, entry level accounting positions. How far up you can go with that alone depends on the company you work for. Have you tried googling or asking accountants at your job what they do? Doesn’t have to be in a “I’m thinking of switching careers” but “I’m curious, what do y’all do in accounting besides making sure the money comes in and goes out without issues”. If the certificate is at your community college, talk to an advisor there or talk to an advisor at a nearby 4 year college that would be easy to transition to. I don’t know much about accounting but I know there’s more than just data entry (such as identifying patterns).
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 12:26 pm Accountant here – it’s going to vary, but it’s more data review and analysis than data entry. 1. There’s a couple of different roles that could get involved here. Bookkeeper – you are recording transactions. Level of data entry depends on how automated your company is. More common in smaller less automated companies, so it’s primarily data entry but it’s more specialized. AR clerk/AP clerk – you’re handling either recording invoices to customers and customer payments, or vendor invoices & payments, respectively. Low-medium levels of data entry, again depending on how automated the company is. Lots more data *review* – you need to be able to spot when an invoice is reasonable, when a check is off, and depending on where you’re working you might also be a client/vendor point of contract. 2. It’s going to depend what company you find – a really good bookkeeper is the backbone of the small company. That said, at least in the US, you’re only going to be able to get so high without a CPA license, so at least initially you’re looking at low-to-mid 5 figures in HCOL areas (looking at West Coast numbers, I’m not familiar with nation-wide) and are only likely to get higher than that with significant experience. 3. A full accountant does a lot more data review, looks for and resolves discrepancies, analyzes and interprets data to prepare reports, creates journal entries (which may involve any of the above), and generally keeps an eye on the flow of finances coming in or out. At higher levels it also involves some amount of forward planning and budgeting, compliance with applicable state and federal regulations, and review and approval of major financial questions. 4. If you haven’t looked into project management yet, that might be interesting for you! Also, look into Cost Accounting (also called management accounting). It’s still accounting but it’s aimed at operations specifically. I’ve found it’s a very love-it-or-hate-it subject and people who do it well are a valuable crossover between the operations and financial departments.
Pam Adams* November 8, 2024 at 12:39 pm I think something similar- the basic accounting courses are all facts and data entry, but once you have the skills, managerial/cost accounting is about using those facts to make decisions.
Chauncy Gardener* November 8, 2024 at 1:39 pm Completely agree with Strive to Excel. Payroll Accountant is another role to lump in with A/R and A/P. If your brain is wired for Cost Accounting, it’s a great field to get into. There are never enough Cost Accountants. But I’m hearing there’s a shortage of accountants in general, so good luck!
Igobymymiddlename* November 8, 2024 at 1:26 pm One thing to remember while you are taking the course. You do a lot of manual activity so that you have a better understanding of how accounting works. If you understand what the process is, you will know if the tools that you are using are working properly.
Hillary* November 8, 2024 at 2:05 pm This. We did everything on paper/with calculators in my finance & accounting classes because we needed to learn all the steps. In the real world it was all excel.
Strive to Excel* November 8, 2024 at 2:48 pm This so much. You have to learn the building blocks first.
D. B.* November 8, 2024 at 12:06 pm A coworker just said that someone she knows, who works for one of our competitors, told her that he had heard our company is going out of business. I haven’t heard anything to confirm this rumor, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I know I shouldn’t make too much of it, but right now it’s all I can think about. Anyone else had an experience like that?
Busy Middle Manager* November 8, 2024 at 12:17 pm Could be company is looking to merge/sell and not literally going out of business. Many companies do this for years before finding a company to merge with, so it’s not always a sign of immediate danger. So yes to your question but the actual event came a few years later.
CommanderBanana* November 8, 2024 at 12:51 pm Maybe check your state’s WARN rules? I am not a lawyer and this varies from state to state, but it’s my understanding that even if a business is in a state that requires a WARN notice to be posted, they don’t have to actually let employees know they’ve posted a WARN notice. (If I’m wrong, someone please correct me.)
MsM* November 8, 2024 at 12:53 pm If it seems plausible, then polish up your resume, put feelers out to your network, and keep an eye out for other job opportunities. Hopefully you can hold out for something you’d want to take regardless, but doesn’t hurt to be prepared.
Best Coke Ever* November 8, 2024 at 1:13 pm Normally I’d think it’s just a rumor, but if you aren’t surprised that it might be true probably time to start looking anyway
Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s* November 8, 2024 at 4:35 pm If you’re that preoccupied with the possibility, then there’s really nothing else to do except polish your resume and start looking for something else. I would definitely NOT recommend marching into your boss’s office and asking them to confirm or deny a rumor that you overheard.
When Is Retirement?* November 8, 2024 at 12:09 pm Hi, first, my thoughts are with all feds who might be impacted next year. I have friends and family who may be in the same boat. I’m looking for advice from those at the state level – when you have a feeling your state might flip – what did you do to prepare? Is it just the usual networking in the year leading up to it? Which would start now??? I am late 50s, nonunion, unclassified, on exec staff, and I may be on that ship this time next year after the 2025 election…..
Just a name* November 8, 2024 at 3:09 pm I wonder if early retirement might be a way to preserve some of the benefits that you have worked for. Although I know the benefits are not great with early retirement. Just a thought without any real research.
Commander Shepard's Favorite Store* November 8, 2024 at 12:14 pm I’m a woman in the US and want to escape for obvious reasons. People of AAM who’ve already done the same, please tell me what you do for work, how you went about the process, and especially how you found a job in the new country! Particularly interested in those who have no easy means of citizenship elsewhere and/or had to learn a new language from scratch, but any and all information helps.
Don’t make me come over there* November 8, 2024 at 1:14 pm The almighty algorithm served me up an ad recently for a company called Expatsi, which helps people select, prepare for, and move to other countries. I have no direct experience with it, but there is some info on their website that might be a jumping off point for your research.
Commander Shepard's Favorite Store* November 8, 2024 at 3:47 pm I’ll check them out, thanks for the recommendation!
ToLeaveOrNotToLeave* November 8, 2024 at 1:16 pm I’m a woman and US citizen working in Germany (because I have residency and speak the language), but I always maintained a home etc. in the US. I’m a little older so I don’t want to waste another four years waiting out an administration. After some serious soul searching, I decided to give up my US home, pull up my remaining roots, and work/retire in Europe. I can even apply for dual citizenship in Germany, then can live anywhere in the EU. That’s a privilege. I’ll attempt to answer your question in my next comment.
ToLeaveOrNotToLeave* November 8, 2024 at 1:44 pm A young lady I know in the US (Jewish and LGBT) asked me the other day about emigration to Europe, specifically Germany (I know, the irony). My answer: 1. Learn the the language of your preferred country as quickly and as well as possible. 2. Save lots of money (10 – 20k) 3. Finish any US training/education immediately (here: bachelor degree). 4. Get a visa. I’ll post links in my next comment because that will go through moderation. Germany has couple of different visas for non-EU citizens. Yes, that’s you. Get used to being a foreigner! – Student Visa: With a bachelor degree and proof of savings, you can apply for a student visa and enter a (often English language) Masters degree program. Gets your foot in the country. I’ve seen a number of Turkish students do exactly that. – Blue Card: If you land a decently paid job in Germany (income limits apply here), you’ll get the Blue Card which is a work visa. You might be tied to your first employer for two years, that keeps changing. – Opportunity Card: This is a job seeker visa that requires proof of savings and language. It lets you into the country for a year. Germany has a tremendous lack of qualified workers! – Restoration of German Citizenship: A veery long shot, but worth looking into under certain circumstances. If your ancestors were persecuted in Germany in WW2 and survivors emigrated, you as a descendant can apply to get German citizenship restored (and retain US citizenship btw). However, you’ll have to find some sort of proof. The German Foreign Ministry might be able to help.
ToLeaveOrNotToLeave* November 8, 2024 at 1:49 pm https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/knowledge/how-to-apply-for-a-student-visa-in-germany https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration/residence-permit/residence-permit-international-students-germany/ https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/types/eu-blue-card https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration/residence-permit/opportunity-card/
ToLeaveOrNotToLeave* November 8, 2024 at 2:02 pm Also don’t believe people telling you English is enough to get by on in Europe. IT IS NOT TRUE. Most European employers don’t like that either. They might use that to beat you down to extremely low pay, which can endanger your visa. (Have seen that happen.) Also prepare for tremendous culture shock. This is a real thing. People will not be as friendly as in the US, you’ll run into all sorts of trouble as a foreigner, you won’t find your favorite snack in the store, you can’t read a form or your work contract, you’ll be lonely…
Commander Shepard's Favorite Store* November 8, 2024 at 4:14 pm Thank you so much for the information! My two biggest issues are that I have no degree of any kind and only speak English. I am very good at my trade but it’s fairly niche (not something that *everyone* needs like, say, plumber or electrician). I took French in high school and have retained enough of it that I think I could jump back in and make significant progress in the next year-ish, but I’m a lot more concerned about starting from scratch on a different language. As for the degree, I was thinking that attending a European university to get an undergrad might be an option, but wasn’t sure how feasible that is (especially depending on how fluent I manage to get). Your links are a lot of help in that regard, I greatly appreciate it. Unfortunately my ancestors have been in the US for quite a while so I don’t think that’s a viable path for me. As for the culture shock…I realize it would be a huge adjustment, but I don’t think I care at this point. I’m an introvert already and don’t require tons of social contact, and frankly, people can be as unfriendly as they like to me if it means I can live somewhere that my rights aren’t endangered or taken away altogether. Right now I just want to be safe(er). Happy is something I can work on.