how can I convince a new job to let me work from home, staff gets ready to leave before the end of their shift, and more

by Alison Green on January 10, 2025

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. How can I advocate to work from home in an interview when it seems against company culture?

I have been a full-time remote employee since late 2017. This organization has always been fully remote and I have thrived in this environment. I do good work and feel close to my colleagues, whom I see in person once or twice a year. I do not feel I am missing out by being in an office nor do I feel my job would be better done in an office environment. Probably important to note is that my organization is a consultancy, working with clients across the U.S.

For reasons that have nothing to do with the work set-up, it’s time for me to move on from this role. A former colleague has offered me a position that would be very similar to my current role, except I’d be doing it in-house rather than for external clients. Salary is market-low and healthcare premiums are extremely expensive, but the work seems interesting. More than anything, I’m ready for a change from my current situation, so would be willing to give it a shot.

During my first conversation with my former colleague, who would be my boss, she reiterated that the role would be completely remote, but it’d be ideal if I could travel to the office for a few days once a month. The office is located 2.5 hours from my home, which is not ideal but fine.

Since that conversation, however, I’m getting the vibe that it might not be as remote-friendly as my former boss presented, and I am worried about getting into a situation where I may be forced into coming into the office regularly or losing my job. Glassdoor is riddled with reviews about how no one is allowed to work from home and how the CEO is vocally against it. Then, I received an email from my would-be-boss asking if I would consider moving to the area where the job is in exchange for $5,000 in moving expenses. (And no, I would absolutely not move to this area, especially for the salary offered.)

I am confident this will come up in my interview with the CEO, which is this Friday. What aspects of WFH productivity should I come prepared to defend? And how can I assess for red flags that might indicate a WFH bait-and-switch? My husband is a stay-at-home-dad with much less marketable skills than me, and being let go from a job would be financially devastating to my family. We already live paycheck to paycheck, so if I take this role, I need to make it work.

You’re not going to be able to change the CEO’s mind on remote work. The Glassdoor reviews make it clear people who work there have already tried; as an outside candidate, you’re not going to succeed where they failed.

More importantly, you should not take this job. Or at least you shouldn’t take it without a very direct conversation with the hiring manager about what you read on Glassdoor. Unless she says, “Oh, that was the previous CEO; the new one is much more WFH-friendly and the culture has totally changed,” this is a recipe for bad things.

Even if you get the remote work agreement in writing, they can decide to change it at any time, and you can end up subject to a lot of pressure to move … or not included in projects, info distribution, and collaboration that you would need to do well in the job … or may simply end up getting told they’ve decided it’s not feasible to have someone remote after all. If you were comfortable with that risk, it would be one thing — but you’re describing it as financially devastating. This isn’t even a job you’re all that excited about! Throw in the low salary and high health insurance premiums, and it’s not a job that fits your needs.

2. I accidentally left the pumping room a mess

I am so embarrassed right now. I want to hide under my desk.

I have been pumping in an unused breakroom/ storage room in our office. Cases of water bottles are piled so high that the space can’t be used for much, but there is a table and chair and enough space for my needs. There is no lock, but I have put up a sign and have had no issues thus far.

Monday, our afternoon meeting ran long (it is an at-work phone meeting, so I was pumping during it in the room). I had to rush out the office to get my daughter at daycare. Tuesday, I unexpectedly had to stay at home with my older daughter. I had the thought, “I should get my pump.” However, I would have had to make my six-year-old walk with me the few blocks from/to the parking garage in the freezing weather and then climb six floors to my parking space in the garage (the elevator is broken). So I just let it go.

Today the office manager let me know that my boss saw a mess in the pumping room and got very upset. There was dried milk on the table and pumping equipment out. I am sure it looked awful, and I am so humiliated. Yep — I left my pump, a boob flange, and my bag out on the table with the door open.

Of course I will not do this again, but should I tell my boss it was an anomalous occurrence? I don’t know how I will ever look at him again. He is older generation and so far I thought I was doing a good job of being discreet about having to pump at work. I am 100% sure he was grossed out. I don’t want to debate on whether or not he should have been grossed out. It was messy and had bodily fluids (can I crawl in a hole forever?) and things that go on my boobs on the table. Help!

You didn’t pee all over the storage room. You left a medical device there. It was an accident, one that won’t happen again. You don’t need to be this mortified!

I don’t think you need to address it with your boss unless it’s going to drive you mad if you don’t. But if you really want to, you can shoot him an email (to avoid the awkwardness that it sounds like you’d both feel if you talked face-to-face) and say, “Apologies for leaving the break room a mess — I had to leave unexpectedly, but it was an oversight and I’ll make sure it doesn’t happen again.” That’s really it! Unless your boss is truly out there, he’s not likely to spend a long time stewing over this.

3. Staff gets ready to leave before the end of their shift

Am I wrong to be annoyed that my staff — who cover the front desk — have a tendency to go to the staff room and gather their things up 10-20 minutes before their shift ends?

We see our last client at 5 pm, but the working hours are 8:15 am to 5:15 pm (with an hour for lunch), in case a client is a few late or someone on their way out needs something, and to just wrap up and close their computers down and whatnot. I feel it isn’t the best presentation for the front to be “pretty much closed” at 5 pm when there’s still a client to get settled.

This expectation has been communicated and has been reiterated. If I ask why they’ve gone to get their things before 5:15, the answer is, “It’s not like I’m leaving yet, I’m just getting ready.” The last time I told them that I did not want them to get their things before clients are finished, having their things on the desk looks like the client is not welcome or is intruding, they just stuck it on the floor.

I don’t feel like it is an unreasonable expectation that my staff doesn’t look like they are running out the door when the last client comes in. But am I being overly critical? Does it matter as much as I feel it does? And if I’m right, what do I need to say to change this behavior?

It’s reasonable to want the last client of the day to feel welcomed and not as if they’re intruding on people who are trying to leave. I don’t know if your staff gathering up their things early is making people feel unwelcome, but if you think it is, you should indeed explain that and tell people not to do it.

I’m curious how firm and direct you’ve been about the expectation: have you been crystal clear (as in “I need you to wait until 5:15 to gather your things”) and they’re flagrantly ignoring that and doing it anyway? If so, you need to get firmer when you see it happening: “We’ve talked about this. I do not want you gathering your things before 5:15 because of the impression it gives clients. If you have a reason to do it earlier, let’s discuss that now so we can hash it out and both be on the same page, but otherwise I need you to follow this job requirement.” But, alternatively, is it possible you haven’t been that clear? If you’ve used softer language (like “I’d prefer you not pack up until the end of the day”), the next step is to be firmer and clearer (“you need to wait until 5:15 to gather your things”).

It’s also possible there’s some complicating factor here like they only have three minutes to catch a bus when their shift ends and if they miss it they’re stuck waiting an hour for the next one … in which case you could explore other solutions, like whether there’s a more discreet place they can store their stuff so it’s not right in clients’ faces. (In fact, you might do that anyway, but that would be particular impetus.)

4. Handling persistent pushy requests from a professor when I’ve already said no

I’m seeking advice on an ongoing issue with a retired elderly professor emeritus. I am an adult learner in a graduate program.

The professor regularly attends our peer teaching session and uses these sessions to advance his own work, including pressuring students to help write chapters for his self published books. He also has sent me numerous emails insisting that I participate as an author in his projects and sign release forms for teaching materials that I created for other purposes for him to use for his own projects. Despite my polite but firm refusals, his requests persist both via email and in person. Although he often says he “respects my decision,” the constant follow-up and pressure to get involved continue.

I’ve discussed this issue with colleagues and other professors, and some have advised me to simply stop responding to his emails, as he sends long, stream-of-consciousness messages filled with various demands, random thoughts, and requests. Fortunately the emails to me have mostly stopped for the time being. It seems that most people have just stopped replying to him altogether.

I am juggling multiple other commitments and have no desire to be involved in his projects, so I’m leaning toward not responding to his emails anymore if he does this again in future. However, I’m unsure if this is the best approach, as I don’t want to escalate the situation or create any further tension. Should I continue to engage politely but firmly, or would it be better to stop responding entirely?

Stop responding. You’ve told him no multiple times and the answer hasn’t changed. And since other people have stopped replying to him, if he has an issue with that he’ll need to take issue with the whole group, not just you, which gives you some degree of cover if that happens.

If he ever asks you in person why you haven’t been answering, you can say, “Oh, I’m sorry if I missed something — I’d already answered you about X and Y and didn’t see an additional question in there.”

Also, is anyone willing to tell him to knock it off, like another professor? Is it something you and other students can raise on course evaluations? It’s obnoxious behavior, made worse by the power dynamics in play.

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{ 401 comments }

{ 401 comments… read them below }

  1. Martin Blackwood*

    I’m a little confused about #3—you see your last client *starting* at 5, or *ending* at five, with some extra time for staff in case appointments run long? The way you said there is extra time at the end makes me think its ends at five, but the way you say ‘still a client to get settled’ makes me think it starts at five. Not sure it matters, but I think i get the staff reaction a little bit more if clients are supposed to be done by five…but if theyre getting stuff ready to leave before five, thats so early, i dont get that.

    I think its reasonable to say the front staff needs to keep their bags/jackets out of sight of clients. I think drawing the line at keeping those things out of sight is the way to go.

    1. KateM*

      Yes, this wasn’t clear to me, either. I wondered if the visits are maybe supposed to last only 5 minutes, in which case there are extra 10 min?

    2. SPB*

      Another issue is what the job requirements are. If they were told they work until 5:15, it makes sense they would prepare to leave by then. Maybe it’s about making sure they are paid for that extra bit of time and are aware that they are, or that they know to expect that when they’re hired.

      1. Anononon*

        Agree.

        Perhaps it’s a broader question of, is packing up to leave part of work time or not?

        I can kind of understand feeling like 5:15 is the time you leave if that’s when your hours are up, rather than that’s the time you’re allowed to start getting ready to leave, but perhaps it’s the nature of this particular job that makes being present all the way until 5:15 necessary.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          I would understand it as the very last client appointment of the day being at 5, then there should still be somebody at the reception desk when they leave.

          Totally understand about tight bus/train/tram connections.

        2. Rapunzel Rider*

          I may be the outlier, but I have always considered packing up to leave not part of work time. My expectation is that I am clocked out so I can take as long/short of time as I need and am not milking the clock or not working on something I should be. It also means that if someone stops me in the middle of trying to get out the door, I can say I am not on the clock and can help them tomorrow, rather than having to delay my departure.

          1. All Het Up About It*

            I agree in general – but also don’t think running to the break room to grab your lunchbox and coat 15 minutes before you clock out, so you can literally pack up and go at your desk after you clock out it a wild idea.

            I’m really curious about this one, because I’m not sure what the OP’s real problem is. When they said “having their things on the desk looks like the client is not welcome or is intruding, they just stuck it on the floor” – that seems like a reasonable compromise to me. If the OP’s concern is what the client sees, then if the client can’t see anything – what’s the issue?

            I’m trying to be open minded and I know how frustrating it is as a manager if you and your team aren’t on the same page – but my past days as the front desk person and dealing with micromanaging bosses has my Spidey senses tingling on this one.

            In addition to making sure they are clearly communicating their desires – I’d urge the OP to really sit and ask themselves WHY they feel like they feel and if it’s really a big deal as they are treating it. Would you be willing to lose staff over it, for example? If the answer is yes, well, that’s the answer, but I just know sometimes in my time as a manager I’ve learned to pick my battles and just because I’m the boss doesn’t mean that everything has to happen exactly how I would have it done.

            1. yellowsprings*

              I read “they just stuck it on the floor” to mean “they were dismissive and didn’t take my complaint about packing up early seriously, because their only response was to relocate their personal items temporarily, apparently thinking that would solve the problem. They didn’t seem to register that the packing up early AT ALL is the thing that I have an issue with.”

              1. All het up about it*

                Ah – yeah, I could see that too.

                I really think that this is why Alison’s advice about being clear is so important. Even in the letter the OP focuses on the reason they don’t want them packing up early is because of how it looks to clients. So it’s perfectly logical that someone might interpret that as, I can pack up early as long as it’s not obvious to clients.

                If OP really cares about packing up early in general period then they need to stop focusing on using the clients as the excuse.

                I can’t really decide if I think this is a reasonable directive or not without more information, but hopefully OP will now realize that there are different ways that people can be interpreting what they are saying.

              2. AlsoADHD*

                Well the reasoning for the issues that seems legitimate is how it makes clients feel, so is it dismissive to address the issue given (clients might get a bad impression)? I am confused how that didn’t solve the problem since LW doesn’t share any other reasoning.

            2. GoodNPlenty*

              As a shift nurse, often in face to face shift changes (no overlap) getting your stuff to punch out was absolutely reasonable for your own sanity. If you dithered, you stood the chance of getting mandated for a double shift. I think it’s just human nature to want to make a smooth exit without wasting your own time. With commuting I found that 5 minutes could equal 20 in traffic. I think OP is annoyed by the optics, which can be managed. But it’s pretty reasonable to want to leave.

        3. Helen Waite*

          Everywhere I’ve worked, people are ready to go at quitting time. I’ve never worked a job that had zero downtime during the workday to get ready to go. Even that last trip to the restroom was possible without impacting productivity. Optimizing for a quick exit is everywhere, especially when you have to catch a bus in an area with inadequate public transportation.

          If you’re customer-facing, you should absolutely have a place under the desk to store your stuff.

          1. Ms. Eleanous*

            Is this a client situation where clients have appointments? If all expected clients are already checked in? That seems like easy to go gather stuff with no bad consequences.

            OP said ‘staff’ .. so is there more than one person at reception?
            Big difference if there is only one, and reception is unattended, or if there is still someone there.

        4. WillowSunstar*

          Maybe it’s just me, but it depends on the job. If you have to physically clock out, and it’s on the way to the exit, I can see getting ready to leave before then. If it’s digital on your computer/tablet/whatever device, then I wouldn’t do it. I’d wait til after I clocked out. In some jobs, optics do matter more, especially if they are client-facing.

          1. boof*

            Yeah, I’m thinking like, a store that closes at 5pm – in some places they’ll want everyone out at 5pm and be visibly shutting down at 4:30-4:45, other places that’s when they lock the doors so no one can come in but they’re happy for anyone already there to finish looking around and get what they want. I’d certainly hope staff at the latter place get paid for a shift that includes half an hour or an hour of closing up and restocking or whatever after official closing.
            So maybe LW should either extend their shift a little further if they don’t like it or else scheduling the last client a little earlier – basically not such a tight overlap between last client and staff actually off duty. I would agree though usually “gathering my coat and gear and empty out before hitting the road,” also isn’t something I’m entirely sure someone who was in such a customer facing role should be doing while doors are actively open for customers, unless they can do it in a way that customers won’t notice any difference at.

            1. boof*

              I should specify, not something staff s hould be visible doing while customers still have /scheduled/ appointments. The store example is a bit different / actually useful to do it as if it’s both an unscheduled visit and you need customers out by a specific time.

        5. Also-ADHD*

          If they have to grab their things from elsewhere, I think a *good* workplace would consider that “work time” (I know not all will, especially in say hospitality). I would say they should be able to either leave at 5:15 or be paid beyond it if the job is this “timebound” — that has to go in both directions. (As a salaried worker, I will sometimes work past my time, but I’ll also flex for appointments, leave early, etc. so that’s totally fine. Hourly/coverage based workers who are “held” to a time should also never be held past without additional pay, not even by a minute!)

      2. Dust Bunny*

        I don’t consider gathering my stuff to leave “work”, though. That’s personal. Closing up our warehouse space and shutting off lights is work, and I can’t do that until everyone is done using it so if that’s what’s causing me to run over time, that should be addressed. Putting my coat on and getting my lunch containers out of the fridge, though, is not part of the job.

        1. Rocket Raccoon*

          That’s how my bakery jobs always worked. If your shift ends at 7:00 then at 6:30 you start cleaning up, 7:00 you walk into the office and clock out, then you can take as short or long as you want to actually leave.

          1. Reluctant Mezzo*

            But then there’s Amazon, where they make you stand in line for up to half an hour which is unpaid (which the Court upheld, of course).

        2. Mango*

          Eh, I don’t bring my lunch and coat to work because that’s my personal hobby – I bring them because my employer wants me to be somewhere. imo that makes it part of an in-office job.

      3. JFC*

        This was my thinking. If I was told my workday ended at 5:15, I would take that to mean I could leave the building at that time, not that I could start packing up my things. In which case, I would do what the employees are doing and start shutting down a few minutes before.

        1. acl*

          And my understanding has always been that if my end time is 5:15, then I am working until 5:15. I get paid until 5:15 therefore that is the time I stop working, not the time I walk out the door.

          I do understand bus/train schedules. I do understand day care pick up times. If these are reasons that the person needs to be out the door at 5:15 and not 5 minutes later, then that is something to be discussed and (hopefully) agreed to. Perhaps that person can come in a little earlier and someone else can stay until 5:15.

          1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

            LW does not say that gathering things affects their work beyond optics (which was solved but she still didn’t like it).

            1. Orora*

              Was it solved tho? Putting items “on the floor” could mean that they are still in sight of clients. And what if a client comes in at 5:05 and no one is at the desk because they are getting their stuff? That’s a business need that is not being met.

              1. Triplestep*

                That’s why they are doing it 20 minutes early. So clients coming in at 5pm don’t come in to an empty desk.

                This sounds like it’s based in either a public transportation schedule or a traffic build up problem. People going off to collect their children often need to leave precisely at quitting time or end up spending more time in traffic and having to pay a fee to the child care for every minute that they’re late. It seems like the letter writer could be as sensitive to the needs of these employees as they are to the optics for clients.

      4. Jules the 3rd*

        This!
        The way I read it, that client appointments end at 5pm but there may be some closing up work to be done until 5:15, it seems totally reasonable that people would be getting their stuff together at 5:05.

        An example might be the bank. Say I walk in at 4:55 for a quick deposit, and there’s a line, and I get to the teller at 5:10. I would be unsurprised and completely understanding if I saw the teller’s person’s gear ready to go. It would not seem unprofessional. It would be like counting down a drawer, part of the closing process.

        If it bothers LW, then the right compromise is put the gear someplace discreet, like the floor, but anyone who’s coming in right at close should *expect* to rush through the process – they’re closing! They have child care and busses and all kinds of things based around when they close! Let them go, in peace.

        1. BigLawEx*

          This is how I see it. I know if I’m walking in anywhere, bank, doctor’s office, etc., for that last appointment, I assume those folks are following me out the door and I do not take it personally.

      5. DisgruntledPelican*

        If they were told they work until 5:15, they should be working until 5:15. Going to staff room to grab your stuff is not working.

    3. Pumpkin cat*

      I pictured a therapist’s office or a massage place you pay up front for. So the last appt starts at 5, but the front desk people are only needed to check them in, not out.

    4. Ron McDon*

      I agree the letter is a bit confusing about whether clients are arriving at 5 or leaving at 5, but I don’t think this affects the advice.

      I’ve always been of the opinion that if your hours are 8.15-5.15, you work until 5.15, then get your coat and bag and leave. I would never think I should be walking out the door at 5.15.

      The place I worked at before this had an employee who was supposed to finish at 5. She would go to the kitchen to wash up her mug at 4.45, shut down her computer, put her bag on the desk and stare out the window or chat until 5.00 then stand up and leave. Everybody else worked until 5, then shut down the PC, washed our mug etc. Our bosses told her she had to wait until 5pm to leave after she started walking out the door at 4.55, but had given up trying to stop her getting ready to leave early.

      We weren’t client facing, but sometimes people from other departments would come in and comment when they saw her sitting there with her PC turned off and her bag on the desk – it was obvious she was doing nothing!

      I’m thinking back through all the jobs I’ve had, and I can’t think of anyone else I’ve worked with who did this, so it must be pretty standard in my area of the UK that you work til your end time then get ready to leave.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I’m in the UK, and this was the standard in jobs like retail and other customer service work. But it wasn’t in most of the office jobs I’ve had since 2010, where it was quite normal for people to arrive between 8.30-9am and the office was usually nearly empty by 5pm.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        I figure starting up and shutting down your computer, putting away and getting out files and other work related tasks should count as work time, because they are work, not personal. Stuff like getting putting on your coat or going to the washroom leans more towards personal / not work time.

        1. Agent Diane*

          I agree that packing away the work stuff is work, and therefore within the working time. That’s also how letters about people setting up for the day have been treated – if you need to do it to do your job, it’s on the clock and management should factor the time in. It seems obvious to me that the same applies to packing up.

          I do think it’s reasonable to ask them to start packing up after 5.05pm. Clients who are running later than that can’t really be snotty about people who are aware of the time.

          And get a good coat rack for the reception so your staff can have their things ready to go at 5.15pm without looking messy. Right now, it reads like you are nickel and diming people who are probably your least well-paid staff.

          (Aside: this is the second letter this week to start with “Am I wrong to think…” which is a phrasing which always winds me up. It’s a rhetorical device that is trying to make people agree that whatever follows is fine.)

          1. Yes for coat rack*

            “And get a good coat rack for the reception so your staff can have their things ready to go at 5.15pm without looking messy.”

            That was my thought too. It’s such a simple solution: everything looks tidy and welcoming, and staff can get out on time.

            1. Sloanicota*

              Right! OP acknowledges they have a slightly unusual and probably inconvenient requirement at their business. Why wouldn’t you want to do what you can to minimize the impact of that requirement on your least-paid staff?

            2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

              If there’s room for it!

              When I worked reception, there was not much free space behind the desk (although there was enough room under the desk for me to store my coat and personal gear, and a drawer for anything personal I needed to lock up), and a great big company logo behind the reception desk that we couldn’t have gotten away with half-hiding.

              My manager could have found room somewhere that wasn’t behind the desk for some kind of wardrobe situation, possibly by moving some of the Corporate Art (dramatic action shot of sailboat with company logo on the sail, and similar corporate ego-stroking photos), but it would probably would have been some expensive and quirky thing in order to match the rest of the lobby.

              I was always a little out of step with the rest of my team when I was covering the desk at the larger of the locations in the city, because I was operating in the model where you keep working more or less until you clock out, and the rest of them were ready to go at five on the dot — and would wait for me while I made my last bathroom trip before the commute! I didn’t want them to find the desk unoccupied at 4:45 even for a few minutes as I felt it would look bad, and of course all the bathrooms in the building were pretty far from the reception desk.

          2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Your aside, yes! I also twitch at “Am I the only one who —“ because no, I can pretty much guarantee you are not.

            1. Ochre*

              on Reddit: “Has Anyone Ever Experienced [this]???” Yes. In the whole broad diversity of human experience, yes some other person has experienced [that].

            3. Aerin*

              It’s such a weird formulation! It’s like you’re trying to set yourself up to indeed be the only one with a completely unique outlier experience or opinion, in which case it’s probably extremely yikes.

                2. Freya*

                  @Kenelm I always liked the lyric in ‘Up Against The Wall’ by the Whitlams – “she was one in a million, so there’s five more just in New South Wales”

          3. Totally Minnie*

            Right now, it reads like you are nickel and diming people who are probably your least well-paid staff.

            This, right here. Front desk jobs tend to be both the least well paid and the most highly restricted jobs in an organization. At my last front desk job, we got held to so many standards that back office staff didn’t have to deal with, from whether we were allowed to have water with us at the desk to how often we could use the bathroom to our start and end times. I don’t think our back office manager worked a full 80 hour pay period the entire time I worked there and she never got talked to about it, but front desk staff would get points toward discipline for being 2-3 minutes late. It was so entirely frustrating.

            I can’t say for certain whether the difference is that start at OP’s office, but they should be aware that a front desk job has pain points that a back office job doesn’t, and staff aren’t even paid well enough that those pain points are worth it.

            How bad would it be, really, to make the end of the work day a little bit easier for those staff?

            2. Elizabeth West*

              This, especially if they have a ride waiting on them, need to negotiate a ton of traffic to get home, or have to catch a train or bus.

              1. Chirpy*

                This, I used to work somewhere where the traffic was horrible if I left at 5:05, but fine if I left right at 5:00. Leaving right on time saved me quite a bit of headache – those 5 minutes made a huge difference in traffic and how long it took to get home.

          4. Aerin*

            It makes me wonder how high-maintenance these clients usually are? Because if I walked in three minutes before closing because *I* was running late, I’d just be glad that anyone was there at all, and wouldn’t mind if they were clearly ready to bounce. If they can do what I need of them, they’ve done their job. I don’t expect them to act like their whole existence revolves around me.

            1. Periwinkle*

              I agree. Also if I had my appointment at the end of the day and happened to see someone with a coat or a bag and looking as if they were ready to leave, I wouldn’t be phased at all. It’s a human helping me, if it’s 5:00 they’re probably tired and ready to take off and enjoy their evening. Even more so if *I* was late and delayed *them*

              1. Mgguy*

                At the same time, I have an ongoing gripe with my local post office because, depending on the employee who’s there at closing time, they are CLOSED at 4:50 or so.

                I wouldn’t care if I walked in at 4:50 and I saw them covering the displays, had the roll-down door part of the way closed, or anything else that says “I’m locking the door and turning off the lights right at 5:00.”

                As it is, though, if I walk in at 4:50, more often than not the registers are shut down, the gate in front of the counter is closed and locked, and other than there being an employee there the office is functionally closed. If I come in with a pre-paid package that I need scanned, they won’t do it-they just tell me they’ll set it on the counter and do it first thing the next morning. And yes, I know that package isn’t LEAVING the PO if I drop it off at 4:50, but at least as far as Ebay is concerned, if I’m supposed to ship by EOD on the 10th, scanned=shipped on time, and scanned on the 11th=shipped late.

                Knowing that they do this, I do everything I can to get there by 4:40 or 4:45, but it seems like every week the shutdown routine starts earlier and earlier. I got some grumbling the other day when I walked in at 4:45 as the person there had walked out from behind the counter to start shutting down, but they did at least scan it for me.

                To me, open until 5:00 means I should be able to walk in the door at 4:59 and at least be able to hand a package to a PO employee. I’d understand them being grumpy if I walked in with a registered package or something else long and involved right at close, but I’m walking in with the easiest task the PO counter employee probably does all day.

                1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

                  I had SUCH a frustrating discussion with a manager once, who didn’t seem to grasp that the campus shuttle operation times listed in the directory needed to be the time that the shuttle was actually in operation, rather than the shift times of the shuttle driver. The shuttle riders have no need to know when the shuttle driver needs to clock in or how long after the last ride it takes the driver to complete all the paperwork.

            2. Lady Lessa*

              That happened to me earlier this week. I had to drop off (only) an item at the Dr’s office. I was there just before closing time (running later that I liked), and the woman was very nice, took the bagged item, and I even advised her what type pen to use. (Sharpies, which I saw in the pen holder) work nice on plastic bags.

              I greatly appreciate them.

            3. Katara's side braids*

              Right. I try very hard not to do it, but if I arrive somewhere within 30-60 minutes of closing (depending on the kind of business), I fully expect to see signs that closing is imminent – maybe only 1 front desk person, or people putting files away, or even putting coats on and saying goodbye to whoever is staying behind for the stragglers. In fact, I *hope* to see it, because it reassures me that those final “packing up” tasks won’t be added onto whatever delay I’m causing to the person helping me. I’ve been the one on the other side of the desk silently panicking about missing the last bus or hitting awful traffic, and would never want someone helping me to be in that situation because their boss thought I’d be offended by common-sense measures to prevent it.

        2. SarahKay*

          I agree with that split of work / non-work tasks. Not that I work in a time-sensitive role any more, but when I did, I counted the start of my day as the point when I sat down at my desk and pressed the on button for my computer, and the end of the day as when I put away my files and turned off the computer.
          Coats, hats, scarves, gloves, winter boots (why yes, the weather here is in the middle of a cold snap) I would expect to do in my own time.

          1. doreen*

            I agree with that split – but I also wonder what is taking them 10-20 minutes. Or does it take them a minute or two to get their things and they are just doing it 10-20 minutes before the end of the day>

            1. Jackalope*

              I normally take 20 min or so to get out the door since I commute by bike and I have to get all of my bike gear on; this time of year especially it takes forever to get all of the winter stuff on! That being said, my normal procedure is to start with the bike gear after I’m logged off, except on the rare occasion (every few months or so) that I have, say, a doctor’s appt right after work and need to skedaddle.

            2. Tio*

              It sounds a bit to me like at 5pm they’re going to the back room or wherever, gathering their lunch bag/coat/bag etc, bringing it all to the front and letting it sit on or next to the desk, which the boss thinks looks cluttered: ” having their things on the desk looks like the client is not welcome or is intruding”

              I think if the boss wants to draw a line about getting their personal things before 5:15, they can, that is not something that is necessarily an on the clock thing. But can they perhaps also clear out some space n a filing cabinet and get a coat rack like suggested above, so the bag and coat are right there when the person is ready to leave, and it’s much faster for them to go out the door?

              1. Venus*

                I’m not sure why they can’t just go get their things at 5:12 (or however long it takes them to get their things before 5:15). That seems to be the obvious, uncomplicated solution?

                1. Annie*

                  I agree with not nickel and diming the employees, but yeah, how long does it take to grab your coat and bag and put away something? Five minutes? Why not just say please do not go get your things until after 5:00 when the last client comes in (or leaves?)

            3. Coverage Associate*

              I do it slowly, and I’m salaried, but I give myself 10 minutes to pack up and shut down.

              There’s at least one trip to the kitchen to drop off whatever my water was in that day, even if it’s disposable, because we don’t have any waste baskets near our desks.

              Often there’s a trip to the copy room to put confidential papers in the special shred + recycle bins. (Any papers that don’t need to be shredded can go in the recycling in the kitchen.)

              I have to pack up my keyboard, mouse, mouse pad, pens, etc every day because we hot desk. And then I have to carry them in a bin to a closet.

              Then I put my laptop on sleep or shut it down completely and pack it up in my briefcase with any other work materials I will need before I’m back in the office.

              Then I put on my coat, which may be in a closet away from my desk because there’s also no coat rack or hooks near our desks. (If it’s short, I can keep it on the back of my chair.)

              So it’s usually at least 2 trips from my desk to other rooms, and sometimes 3 or 4. And that’s without going to the bathroom or any last-minute questions either in person or by email or Teams.

        3. Sloanicota*

          I agree. Obviously employers would love it if all employees were still working away at 4:59, and then the turning off / washing mugs / gathering coats stuff was all on the employee’s dime – meaning they’re actually leaving the office at 5:15. If you multiply that by enough employees that’s quite a tidy amount of extra time the company is getting, and I bet if the phone rings during that time someone will answer it, too, or if the boss comes down with a last minute request there’s people on site to deal with it. Nice for them! But I don’t think it’s *wrong* for an employee to arrange it so they’re walking out the door at 5:01. I guess they just need to be a bit less obvious about it than some of these examples.

          1. Liz Bender*

            I agree! Plus there is creditable data available stating that the average employee is only productive for 3 out of 8 hours a day. I see no problem with an employee using 15 minutes of the 5 non-productive hours to get ready to leave the building on time.

            I live/work in an area that has good public transportation and most employees including the senior leaders I work with commute that way. Even in coverage-based jobs at my employer it is completely acceptable to leave work 5 minutes before official end time to catch a bus. Plus our clock in/out system rounds to nearest quarter hour.

            1. Rocket Raccoon*

              Is that an average office worker, or an average employee? Because my fellow kitchen and warehouse workers would have something to say about that average -we are working our tails off for 7:10 out of an 8:00 shift so who the hell is dragging that average down and are they doing anything at all?

      3. JSPA*

        Agreed, but all of the hand-wringing over appearances could be much reduced by (say) having a coat rack by the door or by the desks (if the coats are always there, they’re not a sign of imminent departure) and not worrying whether someone has a handbag or backpack on the floor (likewise not a sign of imminent departure).

        Seems to me the LW could be projecting / worrying about the wrong metrics. (Especially as the last customer of the day knows people will be leaving, in any case…and that shouldn’t be a shock.)

        LW, are they as kind, welcoming, pleasant and thorough with the last customer? If not, shifting objects isn’t the problem. If so, then you likely don’t have a problem.

        Some customers will feel and act like they are intruding at any time of day. Some will feel hyper-entitled and thus underserved at any time of day. But most customers, if they are treated as valued customers and given full attention, will have no opinion on a bag of belongings behind the desk.

        1. Bruce*

          I agree in general about how to make this work better, but I think there should be a secure place to leave bags… just putting it on the floor invites theft even if it is behind the desk. So a locking drawer or cabinet.

      4. Baunilha*

        In every job I had, even the client-facing ones, it was a matter of reading the room and having common sense: if things were slow, it was ok for people to start getting ready to leave a bit early, so you’re out of the door as soon as your time is up. But even then, we were available if something came up last minute.

      5. Dust Bunny*

        Same. I can start shutting stuff down and packing up before my hours end at 4:30 but not if we still have patrons. If we still have patrons I either stay later and make up the time tomorrow or, more often, hand them off to someone whose hours end later (we close at 5:00 but have staggered hours; patrons do have to leave by 5:00, though). But putting on my coat, etc., is personal, not work and can wait until I’m actually off.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          At our library, we have a gong that sounds at 15 till (hurry up already) and then at 5 till closing (if you’re not in line, there’s the door, please). There is a certain amount of competition about who gets to bang the gong…

      6. spiriferida*

        I can’t say it’s true of this particular workplace, but in my experience in client-based work, it can be pretty common for people not to respect the time the front desk folks need to leave on the dot – even if the other staff do, the clients might not, and the policy is usually ‘make sure they have what they need before you close.’ If getting their coats 10 minutes before their scheduled end time allows them to shut down and leave at 5:20 instead of 5:25, (or at 5:40 instead of 5:45, depending on how late things are running) then I would look the other way when it happens at 5:05, especially if they’re still staying until 5:15.

        One of the reasons retail can be so scummy is because it often pressures hourly workers into doing unpaid overtime because it doesn’t budget in enough time to properly accomplish closing tasks. I’m not saying that’s what the LW is doing, but I’d consider how often the receptionists’ end times aren’t being respected as part of the calculus on whether grabbing their coat early is reasonable.

        2. CommanderBanana*

          ^^ This. I worked at a tiny little bodega in the evenings and on weekends (tiny as in, one person worked there at a time tiny) and the owner only paid through closing time, so if you stayed to clean, mop, etc., or if an annoying customer showed up at 8:59, you didn’t get paid for any time after the posted closing time. 15 minutes per shift times a few shifts a week quickly adds up to several hours of unpaid work per month.

          2. Texan In Exile*

            I worked at Macy’s one Christmas. Two college-aged women showed up at 11:58 p.m. one night with a bunch of clothes that needed a price check. The store closed at midnight and all the other registers were closed.

            When I expressed some frustration, one of them said snottily, “Well you are being paid.”

            I wanted to tell her that $11 an hour was not worth it to be on my feet at midnight after an eight-hour shift while they played. All I wanted to do was go home.

            1. I Have RBF*

              I would have been tempted to say “Not after midnight. My employer doesn’t allow overtime.” But I have never been able to keep a retail job.

        3. Chirpy*

          This, I’ve had to deal with customers that showed up five minutes before close and then CONTINUED SHOPPING FOR HALF AN HOUR because they thought they were fine to take their time since they were *in the door* before close. (One guy refused help/brushed off at least 5 employees telling him we were closed and continued shopping in the dark when the manager turned off the lights! ) SO inconsiderate.

          (We did at least get paid for standing there, but it happened almost once a week for a while.)

        4. Freya*

          Yeah, my workplace has the phones set to automatically divert to voicemail from 5pm for a reason!

          (those of us who work until after 5 generally find that last period of time after the office officially closes to be our most productive)

      7. Jules the 3rd*

        When I worked retail, my hours started when I walked in the door, ended when I walked out. I’ve been pulled into inventory questions in the parking lot, so ‘in the door’ seemed like a good compromise.

        When I worked service (lifeguard), it was more of a ‘when ready for action’, but changing in/out of bathing suits was a longer time than counting in a drawer, and I never got asked to watch people in the parking lots.

        I think that expecting to be able to walk out the door at 5:15 depends on the company / org culture, but that I would lean towards allowing it when there’s people who want it as long as it doesn’t affect their actual working ability. If they’ve got people waiting in line when they go for stuff: no. If they’re picking a quiet time and it doesn’t *directly* affect a client: yeah.

        If it truly bothers LW, compromise with a discrete placement, but otherwise, it’s worth it for employee morale.

        Anything that seems questionable, I tended to assess with “how does it affect business?” If I saw concrete impact, that I’d address, but if I just thought there might be an impact, I’d lean a lot more towards finding a way to keep employees happy.

    5. JSPA*

      I read that as getting their billing, accounts, documentation, referrals or other checkout items settled. (Probably accounts, as “settling accounts” is a standard phrase, with the use here being muddied by the attempt to generalize / anonymize.)

    6. Rosacolleti*

      Does it matter tho? They are contracted to work til 5:15, not walk out the door with coats and hats on at 5:15

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I agree that it isn’t 100% clear from the letter but what is clear is that the working hours are until 5:15, which doesn’t change even if clients are “supposed to be done by five”.

        1. That's Not How You Spell That*

          Yeah, it seems like a couple main points here. One is the optics of whether it looks welcoming to the last client to have staff packed up/possibly visibly waiting until 5:15 to leave (We’ve all worked with people like that at some point.) The other is whether getting your stuff ready should be paid or not. I say yes but it’s not 10 minutes for me, more like 1-2.
          I’m wondering if all the 5:15 people are necessary and could any of them leave earlier if they need to for traffic avoidance/public transportation schedule/etc?

      2. Happy meal with extra happy*

        Yeah, I agree. A lot of jobs can have flexibility about start/end times, but generally reception isn’t one of them, and I don’t think it’s egregious to expect people to be working their full shift.

        1. Cmdrshprd*

          But they are working their full shift, they just get their stuff ready to leave, and then go back to the desk, is how I understood it. Unless there are two of them at all times it is unreasonable to expect the desk to be staffed 100% of the time. I’ve been to offices that had people on break/lunch and I just called or rang a bell.

          I think saying doing have your coat on and bag in hand/visible is understandable, but saying you can’t grab anything until 515pm is unreasonable.

          Let them get their stuff just keep it out of sight.

          1. Periwinkle*

            I agree. I bet many of these people droning on about working your entire shift also take little breaks for personal matters throughout the day, whether getting coffee or water, having a conversation, reading and commenting on Ask a Manager etc. these comments are giving Dwight Schrute vibes.

    7. DJ Abbott*

      I am a front desk person. There is no place to hang my coat near my desk. I have thought about asking for a coat rack, but there’s no place to put it.
      If I leave five or 10 minutes after my shift, I get home 15 to 30 minutes later. I need to walk out the door at 4:30 to catch my train, so I bring my coat to the front early. I would be very unhappy if I was told I couldn’t do this.
      If management wants staff’s coats and bags out of sight at all times, they need to provide a convenient place to put them.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        You are exactly who Alison was talking about with her ‘LW may not know why people are doing this’ comment, but I don’t think LW needs to know the ‘why’, the action is enough of an indicator of employee needs.

        Mgmt should not judge the needs. Too much work, and usually none of their business. I wish Alison had been a little stronger pointing to that, but she went for tactful instead.

        Mgmt should look at the actions and assess business impact.

        Concrete impact (eg, line waits): Address the issue
        Intangible impact (eg, “I think it looks unwelcoming”): Leave it alone or find a workable compromise. So, you bring your coat up early, or mgmt provides an ‘up front’ place to put personal gear. Totally reasonable and doesn’t harm the business at all.

    8. Nightengale*

      From my perspective as a clinician working in an office setting – I interpreted it as “ending at 5” and the “getting settled” would be front staff checking the person out, making a follow-up appointment kinds of stuff. Ideally there is still a front person available to do that as the last person seen is leaving for the day. (In my real world, our front staff end at 4:30 and I have one day a week when my last patient finishes at 4:45 so we just. . . have to either try to reach them by phone to make a follow-up or hope they call us to schedule)

      1. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, I have been at medical/dental practices where the clinicians end at 5, but the reception staff leaves at 4:30. When that happens, they schedule the next visit themselves, or have the office people call me to schedule.

        1. Nightengale*

          My hospital system. .. . won’t let me schedule my own patients in this situation. I begged. They said “if we let you, we’d have have to let all the doctors do that.” Which I didn’t see as a problem but that was the end of that.

    9. Nameo*

      I agree, keeping bags out of sight solves LW’s stated problem and lets front desk staff walk out the door on time. However, the LW says “The last time I told them that I did not want them to get their things before clients are finished […] they just stuck it on the floor.”
      So I get the sense that LW doesn’t think of this as a solution.

      I think LW is, in fact, “being overly critical,” as she asks in the letter. If employees have greeted and checked in the last client ….just let them get their stuff before 5:15, and keep it under the desk in case an exiting client needs something.
      The time from 5 to 5:15 seems like it it exists solely to greet late clients or to help an exiting client, so most days employees are not doing anything with this time besides waiting anyway.

      1. Blue Pen*

        Yes, I agree. If keeping their things on the floor is an amiable solution between both parties, then I would also suggest supplying them with a bin of some kind so it keeps everything tidy and off the ground.

        If your employees are still checking your clients in according to your business needs, and their things are out of sight so as not to give any kind of intrusive impression, then I don’t quite see what the issue is.

        And taking a step back, if they’re gathering their things a few minutes early, as well, I also have to believe there’s something that’s making them do that — have they been burned in the past? Are clients usually on time or is lateness frequent? Do they need to run to catch a bus or train? If it were in fact so simple to pick up their coat and bag on the way out the door, why aren’t they doing that?

    10. LaminarFlow*

      This one is confusing. But, take eyebrow waxing appointments. They are typically 15 minute appointments. If a client is booked to start at 5pm, their appointment will end around 5:15, when they will check out/pay. If the front desk is basically closed, it isn’t the best experience for the client.

      Can the shift hours be moved a touch to account for this? I’m sure there are other closing duties that need to happen each evening. Closing for business at 5:15 to perform closing duties & be out by 5:30 could solve this problem.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        But that’s on the establishment to manage appointment times / front desk times appropriately.

    11. commensally*

      Yeah, I think this one depends heavily on the exact situation. But LW, if the problem was clients seeing staff looking like they’re packed and ready to go, and the staff are no longer letting the clients see that, then they have solved the problem, and it sounds like your objection is not actually about the clients. (Also, if you have no place for staff to put things at the desk other than a) the floor and b) visible to clients, maybe you should get some better furniture!)

      And if the time from 5:00 to 5:15 is supposed to be to “wrap up” — then don’t be upset they’re using it to wrap up!

      But I’m really curious about what happens after 5:15. Does the building get closed up and locked as soon as the last client leaves, so that someone taking awhile to pack up is delaying closing? Are you supposed to all leave together at closing for security reasons, like in some jobs I’ve worked? Either way you should be *encouraging* them to grab their stuff before closing. so that other staff aren’t getting delayed by waiting for people to pack up.

      And what happens when that client walks in at 5:10 and needs a long interaction? Are they walking out at 5:15 with the client still there or are they expected to stay “just a few minutes” late with no extra pay? Are they getting nickel and dimed on overtime? In that case, you should not be surprised that they’re making sure they can run out the door the minute the client leaves, and they aren’t worried about making the client aware that they’re inconveniencing the staff! They want to get home at the time they’re supposed to get home.

      On the other hand, if the building stays open late regardless of the desk staff’s hours, and they’re all just walking to the attached luxury parking garage after, and they’re all encouraged to clock out at exactly 5:15 regardless of whether you’re still working with a client… then sure, they should wait to pack their stuff until after they clock out.

    12. HonorBox*

      I think this might be a situation in which a client appointment begins at 5, and the front desk staff are there until 5:15 simply to ensure that if a client is a few minutes late there is still someone to greet them. The provider(s) may be doing whatever the appointment is past that time, but if all clients are in the building, front desk staff is free to go.

      The bottom line though, is that I agree with your last statement. If everyone has their own stuff out of sight so it doesn’t appear that they’re on their way out when someone arrives, no harm done.

    13. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Our office would encouraging gathering your stuff DURING the appointment so you can be unrushed when they are leaving. Client is walking out at 5:05, needs to book another appointment, that needs to be professional. And can be more relaxed if my lunch bag is packed and my coat is nearby and everything not needed is ready. We also shut down the break room, lights off, door closed while the client is there – that is part of work.

      There is a lot of discussion about whether this is ok on or off the clock – but the LW said this was about client optics, not that they had other work they should be doing that they were not doing. Sometimes at the end of the day you need to be cleaning up loose ends and that is it.

      Because you know what? When that client runs out the door at 5:15 and we still have to shut down our computers and the break room and lock up – then we are not keeping work within working hours either.

      It really sounds like the solution is to find a closer space for bags to be kept neatly.

    14. tina turner*

      Yes, I think a coat & umbrella, etc., sprawled over a credenza is kind of obvious. But if there’s a discreet way to do it, fine.

  2. AnotherLibrarian*

    #4: As someone whose worked in higher education for many years, I can promise everyone knows who this person is and know what a problem he is. Likely, folks have already attempted to get him to knock it off. Since professor emeriti don’t actually answer to anyone, there’s often very little anyone can do about them. He’s already retired, after all. Unless he’s on your PhD committee or has sway with the committee or something, just stop responding. You’re a student and you owe him nothing, if you’re not his student. Be polite when you engage in person, but please please don’t let him occupy any more of your headspace.

    1. Richard Hershberger*

      This. Pressuring grad student to write chapters for his self-published books? This guy is well past his use-by date, and everyone but he (and possibly even he) knows it.

      1. Cordelia*

        yes if he was still active in the field and a prestigious academic it would be helpful for you to co-publish with, he wouldn’t need to be pressuring grad students or self-publishing his work, he would still have other academics to work with. Ignore him. If you’re the only one in the group who keeps responding, he will keep pressuring you. Perhaps speak to the group and make an agreement that none of you will respond, and then make sure your professors know this and back you up.

        1. NotBatman*

          Also: there’s no benefit to OP if they do perform all that extra (unpaid) work. It’s not a peer-reviewed publication, it’s not a fruitful collaboration, and it’s not even something they can learn by doing. Block the guy’s email address, and on the extremely slim chance he asks you about it, say you’ve been having problems with your spam filter.

          1. Possum's mom*

            “I would be glad to collaborate on your self- published books when we agree ( in writing) to equally share credit and profits from them”. Then listen for the crickets.

      2. Sara without an H*

        Agreed. If he can’t publish with reputable academic presses anymore, it suggests that he’s outlived his own professional relevance. This is sad, but it’s not the LW’s problem to solve.

    2. StarTrek Nutcase*

      IME professors emeritus come in only two type. One is typically not seen outside events & interacts mostly with faculty. The other is a full-on PITA who pushes boundaries and expects more of students & staff than before retiring (even if not a PITA before). Well, there’s actually a subtype: the PITA + hoarder. As staff, with type 2, I quickly learned to ignore requests if possible and if not, comply VERY slowly & incompetently & use plausible deniability.

      1. Slippers*

        The hoarding tendencies of professors emeritus could be its own documentary. We have an office space shortage in our building, which is exacerbated by the fact that professors who are dead or close to dead have offices that their families can’t/won’t clean out and our staff is too afraid to do it. I walked into one last year and the first thing I see is stacks and stacks of papers on a cart, the top of which is a grant application from 1987. The radio was on his office. He hadn’t been in the office in over two years. I went over and turned it off and the admin audibly gasped, concerned she was somehow going to be in trouble for this.

        1. MCL*

          I’m at a large state university and those days are coming to a closed. We are absolutely strapped for office space and unless that emeritus prof is doing something actively in our department they don’t get an office. Also if they have an appointment in our department but are dean-ing in another building; nobody gets two offices any more. Office Realpolitik.

          1. Princess Tomato in the Salad Kingdom*

            Yep, I’ve been at colleges, where the tide is turning, and every ounce of space is worth gold. There is no room for emeriti at all. If they come in at all, they can sit with the adjuncts! There was one emeritus that had a full standing copy machine that I finagled out of the administration because he ran an institute. I think he officially left two years ago. And what of that beautiful copy machine?

        2. Paulina*

          And when they eventually do leave, they try to donate all of their books to the library or students, as if the hoard that they’ve been sitting on for decades is extremely valuable instead of largely outdated.

          Some people just don’t want to admit that they’re done, or that what they’ve been doing — at least recently — wasn’t really as massively important as the academic bubble enables them to believe.

        3. JustaTech*

          My mom used to work for a library at an Ivy League university, where the most prestigious offices were inside the stacks of the library. When the library went through a (much needed) renovation it was discovered that some of those 10,000 year old emeritus professors had hoarded literally hundreds and hundreds of books into offices that were approximately 8X6 (but tall).
          The worst part was that, because the books hadn’t technically left the library, or even the stacks, they hadn’t been checked out, so they’d been essentially lost, often for decades.

          Some of it was the hoarded tendency of some types of academics, and part of it was “well, I’ll be here until I die, so I’m going to get comfy.” Which was unnervingly true in some cases.

          1. Barefoot Librarian*

            Can confirm! I was an academic librarian for a decade and this was EXACTLY how the older, tenured and emeritus faculty were. They took books without checking them out or they did check them out but refused to return them for years or ever because they didn’t think silly library policies applied to them. It was more trouble than it was worth to try and reclaim the materials so most of the time we wrote them off as lost and ordered another copy. Then they’d die or leave the campus and think we wanted all of their crap that was stacked and horded in their office.

          2. SadieMae*

            JustaTech, I mistakenly read the beginning of your second sentence above as “When the library went through a (much needed) renovation, it discovered some of those 10,000 year old emeritus professors…”

            I was very startled for a moment, imagining a search turning up a collection of mummies in the stacks, still clothed in their now faded and tattered caps and gowns…

      2. BlueberryGirl*

        In my experience, there is a third kind of professors emeritus. They are the ones who have seen it all. Are still respected, if not super active in their field, and are welcome addition to the faculty. I knew one who helped the grad students on campus unionize, because he’d been there when the faculty had unionized and, in his own words, “What is administration going to do to me? I was in WW2. And I’m retired.” Too bad this isn’t one of those kinds.

        1. Jamoche*

          Yes! We have a lovely married couple of English professors emeritus (yes, they both got it, despite it being difficult for wives who were also professors back then. And they’d know the proper Latin plural, too) who run a reading club, are highly desired on dissertation defense committees, and are invited to more dinners than they can possibly attend because they have such amazing stories.

    3. Harriet Vane*

      This. I read the letter expecting to hear that this guy still had some power and … he just doesn’t. He’s an old crank who needs to get a hobby. Ignore him.

    4. Honoria Lucasta*

      It occurs for me to wonder, too, if this emeritus faculty member is emailing the letter writer because she keeps responding when nobody else even replies to his emails anymore. If LW has talked to other people who say they’ve just stopped replying, I think it’s perfectly fair for her to join their ranks.

      I’ve known a few of these in my time in academia, and often they’re very quirky and probably a little lonely now that they’ve retired and 50 years in the academy has eroded all sense of normal human boundaries (which would explain the rambly emails… I once had to work with a retired Professor whose emails honestly came across like found poetry, but not in a good way. )

    5. Sara without an H*

      What AnotherLibrarian said. If everybody else in your group is ignoring him, there’s really no other reason (other than excessive niceness) for you to keep in contact. Block him, or set up a rule in your email that sends any incoming messages from him to a folder. You can check on it periodically, if you feel like it, but if he’s not your advisor and not on your committee, you’re under no obligation to do so.

    6. commensally*

      You probably can’t stop him from being annoying, but if he’s coming to student-only sessions – which is sounds like he is – is there a way to enforce a rule that they are absolutely no professors allowed? I would be concerned at a university that couldn’t keep professors from coming to peer-to-peer student sessions they weren’t associated with in any way.

      1. Paulina*

        Yes, this. He’s disrupting the peer learning sessions with his off-topic intrusions. If it’s organized by a faculty member, OP should try to get them to help with the situation; if it’s a self-organized group, a clear rule that it’s for students only and needs to stay on topic.

      2. OP4*

        Thanks! Had to cut out some details in my letter for brevity/ anonymity. The major issue is that none of the faculty have the desire to stand up to him and tell him it’s time to retire for good. So he continues to do what he wants despite it being disruptive and we don’t have the power to stop him. All the faculty and department chair are all aware and everyone rolls their eyes about this and generally tries to ignore his various demands. He can be very demanding and even litigious (at a previous institution) when he doesn’t get his way so I think people just want to avoid the trouble that this would come with. But thanks Alison and commenters! I’ve just decided to ignore all his emails and not spend any more mental energy on this in the new year.

        3. GoodNPlenty*

          Is there food at these meetings? I once served on a state medical board and retired MDs would come just for the lunch. They hadn’t seen a patient since Truman but they wanted that London broil lunch….

        4. Lilian Field*

          Your real problem is not this jerk, but your chair. You have a weak chair who is weakening the grad program by tolerating this BS.
          If you feel like pursuing it further: get together a group of grad students, go together with evidence to your DGS, and then to your chair if needed, and explain the problem. Tell them, if warranted, that you are worried that these circumstances might harm the overall reputation of the grad program and could even lead to trouble with recruitment/retention.
          Incidentally, the time-honored way for a chair to solve this problem would be to create some kind of Extremely Fancy Emeritus Chair for the Study of Tiny Problem of Interest Only to Emeritus Faculty Member, and then assign that position a dedicated RA–or maybe one grad and 1-2 undergrad, or hire an inexpensive part time admin, or something–on the condition that the Emeritus stop harassing everybody else for free labor. Ideally, the Extremely Fancy Emeritus Chair would come with an office very, very far away from the department. The idea is to flatter someone into silence and irrelevance, and, for better or worse, it is often the likeliest solution in cases like this. It’s a combination of carrot and stick. But you need a resourceful and responsible chair to figure something like this out.

    7. Hyaline*

      I agree that it’s very likely that everyone knows about Professor Pest and he’s probably a department in-joke. However, on the off chance that this behavior hasn’t reached the ears or eyes of the graduate program chair and/or department chair, I would loop them in. They will absolutely want to know that a professor–emeritus or not–is making these kinds of requests for, essentially, free labor. They may not be able to get him to stop sending obnoxious emails (though they may well want to have a chat with him about the appropriate ways to request grad student support if that is still viable for him, which is NOT haranguing the grad students via email, and they may be able to enforce a “no crashers” policy for peer sessions), but it’s on their radar so they can warn/be on the lookout for other students. This is the kind of thing that could cause major headaches–a professor “hiring” a student but not paying them–so leadership probably wants to stay on top of this.

      1. Tupac Coachella*

        This is the big reason this letter grinds my gears. I suspect that Prof Emeritus is bugging OP in an attempt to take advantage of a real or perceived power differential. They bother grad students because they’re a free labor pool who should be grateful to associate themselves with his publications, who also may worry about academic or professional repercussions for angering an established person in the field. I’m glad OP has felt comfortable refusing.

  3. Sylvie*

    For #2, I’m a little horrified that the “pumping room” is a storage area with no lock that apparently everyone has access to. And the letter writer has to climb SIX FLIGHTS of stairs to get to/from the office? The company should be embarrassed, not the letter writer

    2. bamcheeks*

      Yes, I was thinking that whilst of course IDEALLY you would always pack up and tidy away, this is kind of on the company for giving you such a crap room. If this was a dedicated pumping space, you’d no doubt still feel embarrassed that you hadn’t tidied, but you wouldn’t feel the same shame at having Left Evidence That Your Boobs Exist. It sounds like this room just barely covers their legal responsibilities with no real thought for your comfort. Resolve to be a little more assertive about apologising and excusing yourself from an overrunning meeting in the future, but put the shame down!

      1. Let go!*

        “Left Evidence That Your Boobs Exist”

        Well said. Three letter made me feel really bad for OP because of the amount of shame that was in there. Even if the comparison is not ideal – would OP feel the same way if they had left their desk untidied with coffee stains and a dirty cup out there? It’s not ideal, but this happens to everybody at some point too.

        1. kalli*

          The comparison should be ideal, but coffee stains and a dirty cup aren’t exactly great to leave at work when you’re not in either.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Sure, but most of us would be mildly embarrassed to have left coffee stains and a dirty cup out. The OP says she’s humiliated. She describes the pumping equipment as if it’s sexual or shameful, and the breast milk as “bodily fluids” rather than the equally true and more specific “baby food”.

          2. Arrietty*

            But surely you’d agree that if you left a used coffee cup on a table in an unused room one time, it would be a major overreaction for your boss to call you to scold you about it?

            1. Starbuck*

              If I left a coffee spill on a table for an entire day in a room that other people sometimes use, yeah I think I’d be asked to not do that again. We’re definitely expected to clean up after ourselves. Boss didn’t call the LW about it though.

              LW’s room sounds unpleasant, maybe not ideal for pumping! But it’s still reasonable to be expected to not leave a mess behind. Acting like this mess is worse than any other is weird on boss’s part.

              1. Kella*

                Given how many letters we see about office kitchens constantly being a mess because so many people are inconsistent about cleaning up after themselves, I think it is not at all the norm for people to be spoken to by their supervisor for leaving an old cup and some splashes of coffee on a table for a day.

                Also, OP describes the space as an “un-used break/storage room” that “can’t be used for much” so it’s less “I left a mess in a room that other people sometimes use” and more like “I left a mess in a storage closet that holds supplies that only I use 90% of the time and that is intended to be a private space for me.”

        1. ecnaseener*

          I don’t believe a lock is legally required, at least at the federal level. The DOL’s fact sheet on it (#73a) has examples of acceptable setups including “Provide a space with a locking door or use of a sign that designates when the space is in use and off limits to others” (emphasis mine).

          1. Mockingjay*

            The Dept. of Labor website (under PUMP Act) mentions “space that is functional for pumping milk, shielded from view, free from intrusion, available as needed and not a bathroom.” “Employers must ensure the employee’s privacy, for example, by displaying a sign when the space is in use or providing a lock on the door.”

            It’s a one-off situation; Alison’s advice to proffer a quick apology and move on should be fine.

    3. Yvette*

      LW may want to look into what is legally required for a pumping station in her state. What she has may not be it.

    4. Dog momma*

      And it sounds like she left for a kid emergency, which should be taken into account, since she didn’t pack up and leave..just flew out the door

      1. Gray Lady*

        I think it wasn’t an emergency, but that her meeting ran late and she needed to get her from daycare before end of day. It was a different child whose needs made her stay home the next day.

        Of course I would still be understanding about that but it wasn’t the same sort of emergency.

          1. Venus*

            I don’t think it even needs to be stated as an emergency, but “This is a one-time mistake because a meeting ran late” would make it clear that the problem was due to OP’s prioritization of work.

          2. Gray Lady*

            I wouldn’t call that an emergency but rather a time crunch. I’m not suggesting getting out to get her kid isn’t important, but I tend to think of emergencies as sudden and unexpected situations. This is just the normal thing that happens if a meeting runs too late.

            Just semantics, really.

        2. ferrina*

          It was an emergency created by the work running late. Getting a kid before daycare closes is no joke- the daycares I’ve worked at/had my kids at all had a fee starting at the moment that they closed. It was something like $5 per minute, and most had a policy like 3 late pick-ups in 6 months will make you lose your spot at the daycare.

          1. ScruffyInternHerder*

            I swear that that last part (where 3 late pickups in 6 months boots your kid) is to handle folks like my former boss, who told me to, and I quote, “Well, just expense the fee incurred and we’ll reimburse you. We need to continue this meeting!” (A meeting that was planned at the last minute with no agenda and does not need me there)

            I almost considered submitting it JUST to see what his boss and grandboss would say about it!

            1. bamcheeks*

              This is a famous unintended consequence that gets cited in lots of literature: a nursery instituted a fine system for late pick-ups, and found that late pick-ups increased because patrons’ thinking changed from “oh, those people need to get home, I can’t keep them waiting” to “oh well, I’ll just pay for thr late pick-up”. A significant number of people just saw it as an extra service they could purchase.

    6. CityMouse*

      As a former pumper add me to being horrified.

      The idea that flanges must be hidden because they’re cone shaped is ridiculous. I used to dry mine in a rack in my office.

      1. run mad; don't faint*

        I agree. On the other hand, I had to share my office with an HR rep from another location while I was pumping. It was rather sporadic and I never had any idea when she would be there. One afternoon I came in to find her sitting at a conference table in the atrium looking horrified and uncomfortable. She couldn’t sit at the desk in the office because *waving her hand vaguely in the air* there were “things” on the desk. I had washed my flanges and left them to dry on a paper towels on the corner of the desk while I rushed back off to work. I think we were both relieved when another office opened up and she could go there during one of her flying visits to our location.

      2. Former Admin Turned PM*

        I was nursing in the dark ages before a pumping room was legally required, and I had an empty office near my cubicle that I used to use. I would put my parts on a towel on the floor behind the desk after rinsing them, then pack the whole deal up at night. One day my boss (thoroughly embarrassed) told me that our head Facilities guy had been offended by seeing the pump parts hidden away when he went looking behind the desk, and that I had to pack everything up and bring it back to my cubicle and put it out of sight there every time I used my pump.

        Some of our current employee fuss about the nursing rooms not being as nice as they’d like, and I tell them about the before-times when I once had to pump in a file room with a colleague guarding to door to make sure no one came in.

    7. 2 Cents*

      Agreed. Your office is barely (and maybe not even) meeting the needs of a pumping mother. Does this door have a lock and a way to indicate no one should barge in? Is there a chair or are you stacking water bottle packs for a seat? Really, “a mess” implies a bear got loose, not that you forgot your equipment in a moment of panic.

      1. Steph the Editor*

        Just wanted to offer support for letter writer #2. I have been in the crappy, barely adequate pumping room and felt the shame while washing equipment in the bathroom. Please be kind to yourself. You did not leave a mess. There is no need for shame. I’m not sure you need to apologize. I’m impressed you can produce milk in a space that is barely private. You are doing a heroine’s job. Give yourself a hug.

        1. BethDH*

          Yes! And until you’ve experienced a good pumping space at work, it’s easy to blame yourself and your body when the facility itself is the issue.
          When I changed employers and got pumping accommodations that were not begrudging, I was more efficient and neater about the whole process (and happier too). I didn’t realize the degree of mental and physical load added by substandard facilities until I didn’t have that barrier.

    8. No Tribble At All*

      THISSSSSS. I pumped in a tiny room with a minifridge and a chair, and I got them to expense a TV tray so I’d have a place to put my pump. But it LOCKED. And that’s way better than a storage room with no way to indicate it’s in use!! If your boss is upset at seeing your pump, maybe he should….. give you a room that he doesn’t need to go into… to pump!! Why did your boss even need to go in there?

      It’s impossible to pump without ever spilling milk anywhere. You’re doing important work, you’re doing great. Please don’t let this occupy any more of your thoughts unless you want to use it as an example of you needing a better room. It is a medical need for your baby.

      1. Lego girl*

        I get milk on everything somehow even when trying to not. I don’t know where it comes from! I also pump in a storage room and it sucks (and this room is going to be converted back to an office but retain the storage cabinets… not a great space).

        2. LibrarianCT*

          I scrolled down to say this, too. I am currently pumping at work in a windowless back office/storage room. Pumping is an imprecise technology even on a good day. Milk gets everywhere no matter how tidy you try to be. Drips, drops, sprays, spills… please give yourself some grace! It’s not embarrassing – you are doing the best you can and it sounds like you are doing an amazing job. Please be kind to yourself. I’m sorry your coworkers were jerks about it.

    9. Momma Bear*

      I agree to keep it simple with the boss, but I also think LW needs to revisit her rights as a working, pumping momma. It’s not just a problem that she left something there. It’s also a problem that the best they can offer her is a storage room. She should talk to HR about a better space for this. I was fortunate to have a shower room (no toilet). It was used by people who worked out/ran on their breaks but it was also an ideal place for me with a sink, power outlet, and a bench. I could even take my work with me if I needed to. Maybe there’s a space like that LW could reasonably share that would be better for all involved. She need not be mortified about nursing a baby and supporting her (and any other mother) is good for company retention.

  4. Artemesia*

    Wow #1. when your job is critical to your families survival you don’t talk yourself into taking a job with poor pay, poor benefits and which won’t accept your WFH requirement and is 2.5 hours away. You are thinking about something that could massively upend your life and there is no guarantee you would be able to find another job to recover from this. This has red flag flying. Keep looking and stay where you have a good thing until you find something as good.

    1. Absolutely*

      Absolutely. And even if OP could convince the CEO to be allowed to work from home, this is no environment to thrive. The organisation its not wired that way, starting with meeting culture to information transfer. OP is likely to miss out things (because everybody else is used to discuss things quickly in person) or annoy people at some point (there always needs to be extra effort because OP can only participate online).
      That would be ok if it was a short-term employment, but not as a next career step.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        The last line of the letter was rather alarming. I don’t think this is the right position to move to.

      2. DJ Abbott*

        It’s not realistic to expect the company to change its culture or work mode to accommodate one person. If the OP could convince the CEO to do that, the CEO would change their mind soon, and OP would be stuck.
        OP needs to look at what’s reasonable to expect on the long-term from the company and not try to bend the company to meet their expectations, because that won’t work.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          And even if LW does succeed and the CEO embraces the one-remote-worker, being remote in a company that doesn’t have that culture and doesn’t do it well is a nightmare. More boredom than real work to do, no challenges, no growth, forgotten more than remembered, poor reviews. A poor, vague reference if your next employer is into that woo.

          Alison’s advice is dead on. LW, either wait until the CEO and company are already going remote for their own needs and priorities, or find a new role with a company that’s already committed to remote and doing it well to pursue. The well you’re trying to dig has nothing but disappointment at the bottom.

        2. ferrina*

          It’s not realistic to expect the company to change its culture or work mode to accommodate one person.

          This. It will not happen. They may say pretty things to get you in the door, but once you are there, it will go right back to how it was, putting you in a worse spot than where you were before. Run.

      3. Antilles*

        Indeed. Especially when OP is brand new to the team, has no idea about company protocols, little/no familiarity with the team, etc. A company whose CEO is dead-set against WFH and with a flood of Glassdoor reviews about how the company refuses WFH is not one which is going to be able to successfully integrate a new hire remotely.

    2. Spooz*

      I’m baffled by this letter as it doesn’t sound like the OP could take this job anyway, even if it were fully remote.

      It’s market low pay with high health insurance, which makes it sound an awful lot like they will be taking home less money than they currently are. And they’re currently living paycheque to paycheque.

      So… in what world is this going to add up? It sounds like the fast train to debt and misery.

      1. Scarlet2*

        Yeah, I have no idea why LW wants to take that job. It sounds like their current situation is generally OK and they just feel it’s “time to move on”. Why leave for a job that only seems to have downsides? The situation would be different if they had been laid off or if their current job situation was unbearable and they needed to find a new job asap.
        But in this case, I really don’t understand why they try so hard to make this work when it looks like such a bad fit to their situation.

        1. CheeseFace*

          For context, sometimes in consulting “time to move on” isn’t always voluntary, even if you’re a high performer. I work at a major consulting firm that has an up-or-out model, meaning you have a limit to how long you can stay in a position without being promoted. There are also a million other reasons why “time to move on” can mean more urgency than you’d expect, especially in consulting.
          I think the important takeaway here for LW is that there are more than the two options of “stay” and “take this job that is obviously a bad fit.”

          1. Cranmore*

            This exactly. You basically have 10 years at most consulting firms to make partner. If you haven’t you will get pushed out – whether explicitly or implicitly.

      2. Sparkle*

        I wondered if LW has a personal timeline for their career and per that schedule it’s time to move on. Otherwise, I saw nothing in the job offer that was worth considering.

    3. Yvette*

      I Just somehow get the feeling that the letter writer is in a position where they almost have to take this job

      1. Seashell*

        I got the feeling that they thought getting a job through someone they know would spare them from doing a big job search. I can understand wanting to avoid that, but if the offer is worse than the current job’s situation, it seems like the big job search would be preferable.

      2. OP1*

        Yvette you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I have felt like I “need” to take this job. While market-low, the salary is still a bit higher than mine right now, and my health insurance premiums are also high and went up for 2025. I have casually looked for jobs for the past two years and this is the only one that I’ve been in the negotiations stage with that offers me a competitive salary. I live in a HCOL area in a generally LCOL state and have other high expenses that traveled with me when I relocated here. Local jobs simply do not pay. Obviously, roles designed as remote with large organizations are extremely, extremely competitive. It’s almost like I feel like I need to make this job work because I don’t know when another will come around.

        My current job has a lot of perks but the environment is becoming untenably toxic.

        1. Spooz*

          If you are going to have to travel into the office ever, I would be very very very careful to run the numbers on that and make sure it won’t eat up the extra pay.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          This sounds like a path out that will soon peter away into nothing–you need remote and the company is hostile to remote, and so very unlikely to keep to any agreements about being fully remote. And as Spooz says, if this turns into a 5 hour commute more than twice a year, that can turn into a loss both financially and in terms of what you can handle without coming apart.

        3. Sparkle*

          Toxic it difficult to navigate, but consider the bigger picture. Higher salary could easily be eaten up by transportation costs and travel time. WFH could be revoked entirely with no recourse.

        4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          While your current job is becoming untenably toxic, the proposed job does not work for you. If they are already talking relocation expenses WFH is not a realistic option. If WFH is a deal breaker for you, don’t waffle on it. You will only make yourself miserable trying to shoehorn yourself into a job that is not the right fit for you.

          Keep looking. Not just casually, really ramp up the search.

        5. Ally McBeal*

          Well, if you do decide to take the job, keep actively interviewing, and bail as soon as you get something actually better. Companies with industry-low pay and high health insurance premiums get the treatment they deserve from their employees.

        6. Abogado Avocado*

          OP1: I’m worried you’re about to jump out of the frying pan into the fire with this job that has a market-low salary, expensive health insurance premiums, and reviews on Glassdoor that suggest that bait-and-switch is the way they approach WFH. Yes, the job market can be very tough in some regions and I take you at your word that your current job is toxic, but it seems to me that you’ll be in consideration for other, better positions if you just keep at your job search. Further, I’ll bet you’ve got former colleagues in place with better employers who will be happy to help you find the right position. My hope for you is that you can withstand the toxicity at your current place a bit longer and hold out for a better job elsewhere.

        7. NotAnotherManager!*

          I think you need to realistically factor into the pay that they are openly hostile to remote work and you may need to spend some of that increased pay commuting to their location. Maybe that still works out financially in your favor, but I’m guessing it won’t. This is a situation where Glassdoor and the comments are telling you what you need to know – this is not really a remote job. If you still want it, that’s fine, but it’s unlikely that the interview with the CEO is going to be the pivotal point where they have a post-ghost Ebeneezer Scrooge experience and suddenly become supportive of remote work.

        8. Baunilha*

          There’s a good chance that the new job is going to be toxic as well: you know they are not pro-WFH and your future boss already asked you to relocate to the area. I think it’s very likely that they will either revoke the WFH policy (which seems like it would just be an exception made for you anyway) or at least hold you back career-wise since you’re not physically there. Wasn’t there a LW who relocated because they were told they would get better opportunities if they did, and then was let go right after buying a house?

          Also, “a few days once a month” are what? Two consecutives day where you would have to pay for a hotel? One day every week?
          It just seems like a lot of room for things to go wrong and you end up with even less money, since you could be spending so much on commute.

        9. Smithy*

          I got my job at an organization that only adopted more comprehensive remote work due to the pandemic, but for my specific team also had a genuine business need. I.e. it was better to have team members geographically closer to different hubs in our sector vs all working out of the same metro area.

          Despite my team wanting this set up for business reasons, adapting to a remote work style has been very uneven. There’s basically been a real lack of investment in what remote working structures, practices, etc.

          This is with a leadership desire for this structure, isn’t looking to take it away, and it has some significant weak spots. This inevitably has impacted the quality of work I can do on occasion. For example, I work with staff on other teams who can ignore my emails for weeks/months – but for someone who works in the office with them, can swing by their desk and get an answer immediately. I however, need to flag to my boss all of my efforts, the length of no answer, and then ask to either ask for me – or go after their boss.

          Now these are people who can always say that they’re busy/have other high priorities – but the main part is that the overall culture prioritizes those in person moments and it takes a lot to get them to see individual instances as problems. Forget that it’s a larger trend in many teams. I’m not saying that this would be a one to one issue for your job, but I’d expect to versions of issues like this.

          If you really need to take this job, I’d look to really investing in being in the office those two days a month and trying to see how to secure ways for that to be more comfortable. Like would it be helpful if the new job paid for a hotel so you weren’t going back and forth and could do two days in a row? Basically, super commit to being there in person up front, and not only get the chance to prove yourself – but also to figure out those unique remote work weaknesses that this company may have no desire to improve.

        10. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          OP1, please don’t fall into the trap of thinking “since my current job sucks, anything else is better.” This is NOT better. You’ll be trading one form of toxicity for one that could be worse. Please keep looking…and not casually.

    4. 653-CXK*

      LW#1: If your CEO is fully adamant against working from home, take that as a sign that there also other things that they’re adamant about, and that even with an interview to try to change their mind, it won’t.

      This sounds a lot like gumption, and you cannot make this work, I’m afraid. Your best bet is to withdraw from the CEO’s interview and find a place that offers much clearer expectations, does offer fully remote work, and has much better pay so you and your husband don’t live from paycheck to paycheck.

      1. Spooz*

        I don’t think the LW necessarily needs to withdraw from the interview, or not bring up the subject of remote work. But I think she needs to assume that this job probably won’t work out on that front unless she gets some new, surprising, credible information. Which might come out in the CEO interview! But… might not. And vague promises or “let’s try it” should not be regarded as trustworthy.

        Still, I don’t see any harm in going to the interview, laying out her situation clearly
        ONCE and asking if it would work for the company to have her 100% remote. Saying, “My current job is 100% remote, and remote work is very important to me. If I were required to come into the office, I would have to seriously consider how feasible that would be for me given where I live. I understand if 100% remote is not something your company can offer, but I’d also like to explore whether there is a way we could make it work for both of us.”

        That’s explaining it from her perspective but not trying to actively PERSUADE the company, which I do think is a hiding to nothing. But it would be a kindness to the company to make it clear how much remote work is important to her in case they can do something on their end. But if they say no? Then you do have to leave it there and not push it.

        1. Tio*

          This. I would still do the interview, to take a temp on the CEO, or even just for practice if OP can swing it. But this is a job that is not going to give you what you want for anything but a very short term, I’m guessing, and I’m worried OP will try and talk themselves into ignoring the very big red flags

        2. 653-CXK*

          Agreed with both of you. I think LW#1 should go through the interview, but not be surprised when the CEO won’t budge.

    5. Sloanicota*

      Look, I’ve been there when you just need to Leave Your Job now haha. I agree, this new job doesn’t seem like a fit. But I can’t pretend it’s quick and easy to get a great new job. I could understand if OP decided to take it for now and keep job searching just in case. Sometimes you’ve got to go!

      1. Jackalope*

        I hear that, but if the OP takes the job and then either loses it because the CEO tells her remote work doesn’t cut it, or gets told she has to be in-person and is stuck with a 5 hr round-trip commute every day, then she and her family are going to be in a MUCH worse place.

        1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          That’s a key point. Just because OP1 takes this job doesn’t mean they’ll keep it. If the CEO wants an in-house person and they aren’t that one, they can be terminated. OP1 could end up with no job.

      2. JFC*

        I hear you because I’m feeling exactly that way in my current position. I’ve certainly been looking but it’s slow going. All that said, I think the OP runs a serious risk of doing more harm than good if they take this job. It’s not great to be the new person who insists on WFH when it doesn’t fit with the company culture, and I’d bet there would be other aspects of the culture that aren’t a great match. Add in the low pay, high insurance and likely higher travel costs of going to the office even periodically, and it’s just not a good situation. I can totally see OP ending up in a less-than-ideal financial situation with poor rapport among the new colleagues and perhaps damaging their reputation and relationships with references down the line. Just hard to see the positives here.

      3. DJ Abbott*

        But it sounds like this job would be worse than the one they have, for all the reasons everyone has mentioned.
        OP needs to take care not to accept something even worse because they want to leave their current job.

    6. CityMouse*

      There are so many red flags – they’re paying low end with high premiums, they’re promising remote work but then hemming and having about it. This is not good. Do not take this job.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, they’re pulling the rug on their remote work agreements before they even get to the offer stage. Especially with the Glassdoor reviews, you cannot trust they’re going to stick with anything they negotiate.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Agreed. This is not a reasonable fit for OP’s needs and I would bet they’d end up leaving sooner rather than later.

    8. Momma Bear*

      Sounds like LW is mostly entertaining it because of the colleague but they should really take a step back and see the big picture. Surely there is something better closer to home. LW may not enjoy their current role, but they aren’t desperate and can keep looking.

    9. I Have RBF*

      This.

      You are looking at trading a 95% remote job for one with poor pay, poor benefits, and with a “culture” that is anti-remote. They will drag you in with a promise of remote, then change their minds and say you have to sit in their crappy open plan from 8 am to 5 pm five days a week, even though your commute would be 2.5 hours or more each way.

      There are enough red flags to be a communist military parade.

      My current job is remote. If I lived near an office, though, I would now have to go in to a damned office because our CEO has drunk the RTO koolaid. But I made sure that they didn’t have an office in my area – the closest is over 500 miles away, and no, I’m not moving. (Funny note: My boss recently moved across the country, away from an area that had an office. He prefers to work remotely too.)

    10. Former Govt Contractor*

      OP1, I’m agree there is too much risk in this for you financially because it really may well not work out. Given that we face 4 years of uncertainty with regard to health insurance and the economy with the new administration, I would sit tight. We have no idea what’s about to happen to us.

  5. Observer*

    #2- Pumping

    Some thoughts. Firstly, stop framing the situation in the most denigrating and embarrassing way. The flange is a flange not a “boob” anything. And your milk is a much “bodily fluids” and cows milk. And it’s a whole lot less likely to make anyone sick than mayonnaise, even if it were near food.

    Secondly, the room you are pumping is not a break room, no matter what they call it. It’s a messy and almost unusable storage room, which no one in their right mind is going to take their breaks in – which is probably why you have not had any problems so far, even without the ability to lock the door.

    Given the nature of the room, the fact that you left a bit of a mess is hardly a big deal. Sure, it’s not ideal. But it’s hardly the something to make this much of a fuss over.

    Considering you wound up leaving the mess because your meeting ran over time, so you had to rush out, that’s all the more reason to cut you some extra slack over something like this. And I would make sure to mention it if you email your boss (something like “I had to leave on short notice because our meeting ran late”).

    Someone is being a jerk here – and it is NOT you. I don’t know if it’s your boss being an idiot because you sullied the pristine (NOT) mess of a storage room or the office manager who is exaggerating your boss’ reaction. In either case, you have no reason to be embarrassed. If either of them brings it up again, be matter of fact about it. Sure, you’ll clean up in the future, even if it means you have to drop out of an over-long meeting before it’s over. But that no grovelling, and look him straight in the eye. I don’t mean challenging, but confident and calm.

    1. Yankees fans are awesome*

      “the fact that you left a bit of a mess is hardly a big deal.”
      —

      Tell that to the person who needs to use the space right afterward.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        So there’s some pumping equipment and a bit of spilled baby food; so what? Given the usual state of the office kitchen, that’s not going to move the needle for me.

      3. Observer*

        Tell that to the person who needs to use the space right afterward.

        If you have never walked into a shared room that was not immaculately cleaned up after someone else had used it, you are lucky. Even with considerate coworkers, stuff happens.

        And that assumes you are talking about a room that people *actually* use. The LW is *not* pumping in a room that others use. It’s stuffed full of boxes of water bottles with barely enough room for her to use. Who is going to be working in there? No one.

      4. I Have RBF*

        Who needs to use a storage room right afterwards? It’s not a break room. Hell, most break rooms have mess and food spills lying around, IME.

    2. RagingADHD*

      As someone who breastfed 2 children, let’s run with your equivalent of cow’s milk. Breastmilk is food. Breast pumps are food containers. They aren’t more gross than other food containers, but when used, they also aren’t magically *less* gross than other used food containers, either.

      In that sense, LW left lunch remnants and dirty dishes, which included splashes of milk on the table, sitting in a common work space for a day and a half. She didn’t mean to, but that is what happened. Milk gets gross if you leave it out, no matter what mammal it came from.

      It’s not the end of the world, and LW doesn’t need to be eternally mortified, but if a coworker left their dirty dishes and food splattered on a table in the storage room, or the breakroom, or on a conference table, or any other work space, as a coworker I would certainly expect the office manager to privately speak to them about it. Because leaving food and used food containers around is unsanitary.

      Nobody was a jerk to LW. The matter was handled appropriately and is settled.

      1. Observer*

        as a coworker I would certainly expect the office manager to privately speak to them about it

        Yeah, but the OM is claiming that the boss is “very upset.” That’s over the top.

        The matter was handled appropriately and is settled.

        Not when the reaction is so disproportionate.

        1. Bella Ridley*

          Disproportionate? No one can tell from this letter what “very upset” was, and this is about four levels removed from the actual scenario. Who knows what “very upset” was from the boss–maybe he was yelling and hurling staplers around the room, maybe he said sternly “I do not wish to see a mess left in there for days.” Maybe the office manager said the boss was very upset just to drive home the point that the space should be left clean when in reality he only said “Can you please tell Mary to keep the pumping room tidy? It’s a mess.”

          It is appropriate for the office manager to speak to OP to remind them the space should be left clean and sanitary. Everything else is speculation on everyone’s part here.

          1. Observer*

            Maybe the office manager said the boss was very upset just to drive home the point that the space should be left clean when in reality he only said “Can you please tell Mary to keep the pumping room tidy? It’s a mess.”

            Then it’s the Office Manager who is being the jerk. “Very upset” is simply not a reasonable response to what the LW did. And it’s also a bad move to exaggerate what a manager says. So, *someone* is reacting inappropriately.

            Everything else is speculation on everyone’s part here.

            No, someone told the LW that the boss is “very upset”. That part is not speculation. And it’s helpful for the LW to understand that while a quick apology makes sense, there is nothing there for that level of angst.

        2. Nancy*

          No one actually knows the boss’s reaction except the office manager, who is not OP. OP made a mistake, was called out, and presumably took care of it (or if not, should thank the person who did have to clean the space). OP doesn’t need to contact the boss, or spend any more time being upset over it.

      2. Nobby Nobbs*

        Yeah, spoiled milk is going to eventually smell like spoiled milk whether it’s vital nutrition for a human infant or not. OP should be no more or less ashamed than if she’d left half a latte in the storage room. It seems like a “stop beating yourself up over it; don’t do it again” situation to me. (Part of not doing it again might involve standing up for herself re: a more reasonable place to pump. It sounds like she’s been shoved in a remote closet!)

        1. Emmy Noether*

          In my experience, spilled milk will dry rather than spoil (and I don’t even live in a hot climate).

      3. Dahlia*

        Traces of milk sitting on a surface for a day are actually just gonna dry to like a slightly sticky film. It’s really not that gross.

        Source: I don’t do dishes every day and people in my house don’t like to wash their milk cups.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I think it is valid for individuals to have different tolerance levels for other people’s crusted-over food leavings. A workspace, however, should default to a higher standard than we might be prepared to deal with at home, when voluntarily washing dishes for people we chose to live with.

          1. Dahlia*

            Which is why OP doesn’t do that on the regular, but the one time she left her stuff unwashed in an unused storage room, she wasn’t stinking the whole office up from a few drops of milk.

  6. bamcheeks*

    LW5, the key word here is EMERITUS— this is a retired professor with no formal power, and if he’s pressuring grad students to contribute to self-published books, it is unlikely that he holds a huge amount of soft power either. (If he was still seriously active as a researcher in the field, he would be working with other academics.)

    This is someone you owe normal amounts of good manners too, but he is not a professional superior who you have to keep sweet because he has power over your hiring/firing/income. It’s fine to ignore his emails and and say, “oh how interesting, no I wouldn’t be able to but good luck!” in person.

    1. Upside down Question Mark*

      So much this. the problem with emeritus profs in some cases is they aren’t making enough pension and are pushed to keep publishing to try and make a bit of extra cash (very country dependant, clearly). Or it could simply be a retiree who just can’t let go, especially when his research was his whole identity. Unless he’s critical for a reference, board member nomination or the like, don’t feel bad about letting it go. The man needs a personal life to turn to.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I had to ruefully smile at the person so committed to delegating that even in retirement they are looking for someone to delegate their voluntary self-published chapters to. LOL. I knew a lot of professors who had no involvement whatsoever in that research “they” were publishing.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Omg. He’s creating work and then conscripting people to do it. This could would be funny as heck as a movie starring Peter Sellers.

        2. Paulina*

          Sounds like someone who can’t manage to transition to retirement. So he’s trying to keep doing what he’d always done, as a researcher/professor, even though he’s out of the game really.

          One thing to keep in mind is that “emeritus” is an honourary title. It’s granted in recognition of their past contributions to academia but isn’t taken away, so it doesn’t have anything to do with their capabilities now.

          It might be worth someone with actual power in the unit know that he’s harassing the graduate students, though.

  7. Clementine*

    For #1, it’s so obvious that a few days per month are soon going to morph into numerous required visits per month. I don’t think a 2.5-hour commute each way is sustainable for most people, even if it only is 1/3 or 1/2 the workdays.

    What isn’t clear is how urgent it is to leave the current job, and if there is any possibility of other prospects. This situation needs a major rethink.

    1. Jackalope*

      In addition to the time issue, which I agree is big, the cost of commuting would seriously eat into the salary increase (the OP mentioned in a comment above that the salary is market-low but a bit higher than her current salary).

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is exactly what happened to me with health insurance. NewJob chose to go with the absolute worst company on Earth for that (you know the one), and it’s more expensive than what I had previously. Luckily, I got assistance that helps with my premiums.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah, LW should only consider this job if it were TONS more money and/or a perfect fit. It’s neither and has additional downsides.
        Take yourself out of consideration now, LW.

    2. Ann Onymous*

      Even if it doesn’t morph into additional in-office days, I’d be cautious about basing your assessment of what remote work will be like for this job on what it’s like at your current job. Working remote while everyone else is in person can be a very different dynamic from a team where a sizable portion of the team is remote.

    3. JFC*

      My company has offices in four cities, and I occasionally have to go to the one that is 2.5 hours away. I love that office and the people there, but that commute is a GRIND. It makes for a really long day, not to mention I always feel like I lose a lot of productivity time because I obviously can’t do a lot of work while driving. I can’t imagine doing it more than once every couple of months.

    4. boof*

      I don’t see how a 5 hour commute even a few times a month is actually doable; I mean maybe if it was truly the only way to survive life finds a way but even if this is truly a 9-5 / 8hr day / 5 days a week job, that’s basically 13 hr days – I think this job would only make any kind of sense if OP was willing to move closer if they ended up liking it

  8. Palmer*

    #3 strikes me as being a minute counter.

    There is downtime between clients in most industries, and spending that time to get ready is reasonable, it is a task that needs to be done for workers to wrap up their day, they need to do that because of work. If they have to spend time after they clocked out to get their things together, that’s just a business trying to steal their time and is wage theft.

    Also, LW didn’t provide any complaints that the clients don’t feel welcomed, just their perception which seems in a sort of bad faith argument.
    If there is an issue with the business hours, the business should expand those hours, consider winding down who is up front on an alternating basis, or provide better storage locations for folks who are packed up.

    No mention of industry also leaves a question of how long clients take to handle. If it’s a long period, there needs to be a better organization, if it’s 5 minutes, then the end of the days are probably slow, it’s more motivating to let some workers get finished early.

    Overall it feels penny wise pound foolish. By micromanaging worker’s clocks that will discourage them from going above and beyond. That harms a business far more than a few ‘Oh, looks like its close to closing time’ perceptions from customers

    2. Cordelia*

      yes if I was a client arriving for the last appointment of the day, I’d want someone on reception to be there to let me in etc. But I wouldn’t mind if then they started getting ready to go, it would be obvious to me that it was the end of their working day – especially if I had showed up late. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest to see people packing up their bags and getting ready to leave, I recognise that receptionists are people and have lives too

    3. Chas*

      Agreed. If I walked in for an appointment and saw the receptionists getting ready to leave, I’d just be glad that they’d stayed open late enough for me to get there! (Assuming they did stop packing up long enough to deal with me, that is.)

      It reminds me of times when I’ve gone into Costa coffee for a hot chocolate right before their closing time- half the tables were already closed off with the chairs on top of them (because they’d already been cleaned for the night) and the staff were being very clear that I’d have to leave in X number of minutes so they could close. This did not affect my view of the coffee shop at all, and actually made me feel less bad for the staff than I would have if I’d walked in to find an empty room of tables that they would have then had to spend extra time cleaning after the shop closing time ended.

      1. londonedit*

        Yes…I’ve definitely had appointments in the past (something like a physio appointment, or a sports massage) where my appointment has clearly been the last one of the day, and by the time I’ve come out of the treatment room there’s been no one on reception and/or the reception lights have been off, etc. Never bothered me in the slightest – if their last appointment is at 6pm and they close at 7, there isn’t really much point in having staff hanging around if they don’t need to! And I’ve had the same experience as you with things like coffee shops – often they’ll say they’re doing takeaway only as they’re closing in 15 minutes, or there will be an area that’s already being cleaned, or they’ll make it clear that if you’re sitting in then you’ll only have 20 minutes before closing. And then after 15 minutes they’ll come round and say ‘Really sorry but we’re closing now, we’ll have to ask you to leave’.

    4. Anon for This*

      Not sure I agree. I think the issue is not really the coats, etc., but they are not working the last 20 minutes of the shift – and I would bet the time they stop working has slowly increased. The coats are just the outward sign. If the issue really is the coats, agree that the LW is the problem, but I’ve worked with people like those described – “I’m just getting my coat so I’ll be ready”, but they’ve also logged off the computer, put everything away, and play on their phone the last half hour of the day.

      1. Yorick*

        If I were a client and I came in to the receptionist packing their stuff away, I would wonder whether they’re going to cheerfully stop doing that to help me. I would wonder why they let me make an appointment for a time when their staff is actively trying to leave. It depends a lot on what they’re actually doing, but it is definitely possible they are behaving in a way that could be offputting to clients.

    5. PurpleCattledog*

      I think it really depends on what the business does. If these are stock standard appointments that are no big deal to the client I couldn’t see anyone care that staff are packing up to leave at the end of the day as they’re arriving so long as they are looked after.

      If clients are likely to be really stressed/upset eg a funeral home, I think it’s different. If the place is high end then they definitely need to be more polished.

      Having staff somewhere to keep jackets and bags out of site would solve the problem. But if stuff does need to be kept in a locker room nearby, it’s not unreasonable to require staff to go collect their things at clock off time. But only minute count if you have a genuine need.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, most reception desks I’ve seen have a drawer for people to put their stuff in, not make them go back to a break room/locker area.

    6. Blue Pen*

      Yes, thank you for saying this. I agree. And I don’t know if it’s fair to say because I have no idea what industry this is, but seeing clients that late in the day is something I’m not at all used to. And because I’m not used to it, I would have zero issue or qualms with seeing a receptionist getting ready to leave for the day—I wouldn’t blink an eye, and I would, in fact, expect to see that (if I even saw anyone there at all).

      At my PT office, the front desk crew tends to stick around until 5:30 pm or so, but they’re not personally checking people in at that point. Even though they’re there, they’re processing paperwork and clearing the phone system and putting things away and whatnot. Any clients with later appointments are reverted to a virtual check-in station at the side.

    7. Ms. Eleanous*

      Yep, sounds like minute counting to me.

      And reminds me of the bumpersticker:
      Jesus is Coming
      Look Busy.

    8. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I don’t think it’s wage theft to not pay someone to put their coat on. But I also don’t think it’s a big deal to put your coat on while still on the clock.

      1. Coverage Associate*

        In the United States, there’s a lot of case law on the donning and doffing issue. Not my area, but it’s my understanding that generally office workers don’t have to be paid for the time it takes to take off their coats and put them away, boot their computers, etc.; and then in the evening, don’t have to be paid for the time shutting down their computers and putting on their coats.

        But if they have to don and doff special clothing (usually for safety purposes, but maybe also uniforms kept on site, like at theme parks), then they have to be paid for the donning and doffing time. Also if they can’t leave without being inspected by a supervisor, then I think they have to be paid while waiting to be inspected and being inspected, but then wouldn’t be paid while getting coats and bags from lockers outside the inspection space. (These inspections come up when employees deal with small, valuable objects, like in gem mines.)

        I’m in Silicon Valley, but I don’t know where clean room procedures fall under the law. I understand it has to be pretty special clothing for donning and doffing time to be paid, like unique to the employer. Safety gear common across industrial or construction workplaces might not count.

  9. Carrie*

    For the remote-work LW, I was in a similar situation a few years back. My ‘remote’ job required at least 4 days a month in-office and it was a 5-hour round trip by car (longer and more stressful by bus/train). I was tired and miserable, unproductive during the office days due to being exhausted from the journey in and dreading the trip home, less productive the day following due to residual exhaustion; all I can say is don’t do it!

    1. Tiger Snake*

      I think this is where there’s different expectations about what WFH means too. LW1 used both terms interchangeably, but to me, WFH and remote are not synonymous.

      If I have WFH arrangement, then I still expect to live close enough to the office that I can come in if necessary. And I expect that if something happens so that WFH isn’t going to work (power outage for example), then I am able to come into the office to keep working that day without preplanning. Ergo, I would expect that a WFH arrangement still means I need to live in the same city, where as an explicit agreement to work remotely does not.

      I know that many businsses, including several Fortune 500 companies and large government entities, use that model. But dozens of people here will also comment that their business does not. And there will also be many more who’s companies technically hold that model, but have developed a culture with more leeway. There is no universally understand agreement about how WFH conditions work, which is why trying to get this as part of your agreement as a new hire is so tricky.

      1. OP1*

        These are good points. In this situation, a parallel job in the same department is being advertised as “fully remote.” My would-be boss actually thought I still lived elsewhere when she offered me the role and did not know I was semi-local.

        And she framed it as two-three days in office per month but with mileage and hotel provided. It would be one trip per month. Before she learned where I lived she said they’d pay me to “fly down and stay over”.

        1. Ash*

          That’s good, but remember, a CEO can override your would-be boss. I agree with Alison and the commenters that you should not take this job because they could quickly bait and switch. There are no protections that will allow you to WFH. If you are the only breadwinner for the family, I would be very, very cautious about this arrangement.

        2. Tio*

          So, a few things:
          Mileage reimbursements are usually way less than what you’re actually paying to drive somewhere. It’s usually less than a dollar per mile; I think mine, at a very big company with reasonable reimbursement and expense coverage, is like $0.67/mile. So don’t think that “mileage reimbursement” means you’re going to actually get what you’re paying to drive back.

          Second, assume it’s 3 days, and that’s 15 hours per month based on the info you’ve provided. Do you want to spend 15 hours per month driving to this place? Have you really thought about what leaving at let’s say 6 am to get there by 8:30, staying until 4:30 or 5pm, and then getting home, at best, by 7pm is going to feel like roughly once a week? That’s a LOT. And that assumes the best possible working time and commute options, and not that you’ll get stuck at a late meeting or in traffic.

          Finally, this “fully remote” job is already willing to pay to fly you in once a month, supposedly. Then it’s 2-3 times per month once they found out you were closer. THEN they offered to pay you to move even closer – why would they do that if they didn’t want you butt in seat at the office? Once you have the job and are kind of stuck, do you really think they won’t start pressuring you to come in more often, punish you in small ways for not doing what they want, or even just straight up make it required? Because that’s what the reviews are telling you. And companies like that, they have an idea that once you’re in, you’re kind of stuck – because you need a paycheck, because you don’t want to look like a job hopper, because you’ve already sunk time and resources into the job, whatever.

          Actions speak a lot louder than words in many cases, and every action they are taking here is just quietly shoving you towards that butt in the seat. Please believe them.

        3. juliebulie*

          I would worry that your remote/wfh arrangement would generate envy and resentment from coworkers who were denied such an opportunity, and then there would be pressure to end the arrangement. At best you would be at a disadvantage.

        4. MigraineMonth*

          OP1, I can see why you thought it might work initially and were suckered in. Knowing what you know now, though, would you even have applied? It seems like way too much stress and uncertainty for a job that doesn’t even have great pay and benefits.

          1. OP1*

            Had I researched the organization on Glassdoor and known there would be a relocation request, I would have plainly stated to my would-be boss that I would not be interested in proceeding unless she was certain the role would remain fully remote. And to Alison’s point, that of course can be pulled at any time.

            Really good question to consider.

        5. keyboards all the way*

          I’ll be honest, this all sounds like a bad idea. It’s a paycut, with more expensive insurance benefits–so an even bigger paycut especially in this economy. Your friend said it was mostly remote but everything else you’re hearing is not supporting that. And it seems pretty likely that if you took the job, you’d find yourself being pressured to move to a higher COL city for a primarily onsite role. I get that your current job is toxic but there are other postings out there besides this “probably also toxic for you” one.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        This is fascinating to me because I’ve never before heard a distinction made between “wfh” and “remote”. I don’t doubt in some contexts the line is where you say it is, but you kinda just blew my mind, and I’ve been (what you call) remote since the aughts.

      3. OP1*

        I met the CEO yesterday and you are so right, Tiger Snake. There is a clear difference between WFH and being a remote employee. I need to use my words more carefully.

        What was clarified to me is that there are remote employees at this organization—anyone who lives 60+ miles away from the office is considered a remote employee. These employees have individual agreements with their manager about how often they are expected to be in the office.

        Employees who live a shorter distance are expected to come into the office 5 days a week.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      Good lord – that’s 20 hours of commute time per month, which is basically another part-time job!

      1. Moose*

        People who commute an hour each way every day do the exact same amount of time commuting, it’s just spread out over a longer period. I wouldn’t want to have a 5 hour commute in one day but 20 hours in a month on its head doesn’t feel like much.

        But also I have to admit that my perspective on this is skewed.

        1. ASD always*

          There are 22 work days in most months, so 20 hours a month is just under an hour a day total, not each way.

          1. linger*

            Which reinforces Moose’s point that 20h/month is not an unusual amount of time to spend commuting, and so not in itself a dealbreaker.
            Of course, what is a dealbreaker here is that this company is likely to suddenly impose 5 times that amount of commuting.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        It’s a single in-office trip spanning multiple days with a hotel, not multiple days of 2.5hr commute.

  10. cncx*

    Yeah, we need more information for number 3. Like AAM said, is there a bus or train that needs catching? More importantly, how are these people being compensated: does their day’s compensation end at 5:15? Do they get paid for the time to pack up? Is there otherwise hard and fast minute counting rules about breaks and lunch? Because if I am only getting paid until 5:15, I am out the door at 5:15. If I am getting nickled and dimed on my lunch break, I am also out the door at 5:15. If, like in a previous employer, I am getting ridden to bill my hours down to the minute, I am also not staying past 5:15 because that is more minutes I “can’t bill.” This job had hotdesking. I couldn’t clock in until my computer was set up. Depending on windows updates and the like, I was already giving the company ten to fifteen minutes in the morning.

    1. gyratory_circus*

      I’m in complete agreement. And because of stuff like the computer updates you mentioned, my employer cut the guesswork out of when work actually begins and put into writing that logging in/starting your computer is part of your job and shouldn’t be started until your work time begins. I work remotely and we frequently have server issues with our virtual desktops and if takes me 10 or 15 minutes for it to let me connect then that’s a work issue and I’m going to get paid for that time.

      And same goes for the end of the day – logging off and shutting down is part of our job and should be completed by the time we log off. I commuted via metro in DC for the better part of a decade so I never stayed a second longer than I absolutely had to because if I missed my shuttle to the metro, or a train, it could double my commute.

      1. Aerin*

        Same. When we had desk phones you could hit the button as soon as you got to your desk and then would have a few minutes to get everything up and running. Now you can’t clock in until it gets connected, so while I don’t know if we have a firm policy about it, I usually clock in anywhere up to 10 minutes past the hour and no one has ever said anything about it to me.

        For the end of the day, we did actually introduce a formal policy that the last 10 minutes is “shutdown” time. This is mainly to avoid getting a call two minutes before your off time and being stuck late.

        When I first started the job was very “counting minutes,” which I was used to but also found stressful. Things have gotten more forgiving over the years, largely due to getting our staffing up to par, and life is so much better.

    3. C*

      This was my main question, yes. If you want them to stay at the desk until 5:15, are you paying them to close up after? Or are they clocking out at 5:15? Because I need time to close down the front office.

  11. Spooz*

    #2: You can recover from this! Truly! Send ONE email stating that you realise you left the room in a mess, explaining that something urgent came up that meant you weren’t able to tidy up as you usually would, you are sorry that this happened, and you don’t anticipate it happening again.

    You don’t need to make a huge apology but it sounds like it would make you feel better.

    Then scrub it from your mind and skip off into the sunset!

    1. 2 Cents*

      Also, I wouldn’t use the word “mess.” She left her MEDICAL equipment there in a moment of disarray, which is very unlike her (I’m sure).

      Is OP responsible for bringing her own wipes to clean said table? Or is there a sink in the storage room? She sounds like she’s stuffed in the janitor’s closet, which I know isn’t some place I’d like to eat my lunch.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Medical? Do you think think babies exist in a permanent disease state? It’s just food, the same as formula or baby puree, or a thermos of soup. Breastmilk is just an ordinary way to feed a baby. We are never going to fully normalize breastfeeding and pumping if we couch them in overwrought language.

        I don’t think she even needs to bring it back up or apologize, because it really was not that big of a deal, but yeah, it was a bit of a mess, just like if you spilled soup and left it there.

        1. Keyboard Jockey*

          Breast pumps are classified as medical devices by insurance. This is a pretty standard way to refer to them.

  12. animorph*

    #1 – Like Alison, I give you full permission to step away from this former colleague and this nightmare sounding job. Just because you’ve come this far does not mean you need to see the process out.

  13. FashionablyEvil*

    #2–I’d strongly encourage you to reframe this like you left your lunch dishes in the break room overnight. Is it somewhat inconsiderate? Yes. Is it mortifying and catastrophic? Definitely not.

    1. Aerin*

      I think OP is probably worried about her boss being grossed out by it. But that’s not really her problem! It’s not an inherently horrifying thing like something rotting covered in maggots, it’s just equipment showing signs of use. If the boss has an outsized reaction to it, that’s not on OP.

  14. Audrey Puffins*

    LW2, I once forgot to wrap and bin a used sanitary towel and just left it sitting on the side in the workplace bathroom, proudly displaying its handiwork. Absolutely mortifying, but a quick apology and tidy-up sorted the immediate issue, and we all just moved on. I’m sure most people will have regretted leaving a mess in a workplace when they didn’t intend to, we’re all just human! :)

  15. mbs001*

    LW3 – Frankly, as a manager, it’s frustrating to see employees come in to log in quickly (to start their pay clock) and then go to the break room to make their coffee, heat up their breakfast and take 30 minutes doing that in the morning. When they’re supposed to be working. Same in the afternoon. I’ve had to speak with people all ready to leave 15 minutes early and not working up to their departure time. If OPs workers are supposed to work until 5:15pm, then they should be working until then. Not packing up 15 minutes early. Aside from the optics for their clients, the company is paying them to work until that time.

    1. old job post mortem*

      Hmmm….what is your turnover rate like?

      Are your workers hitting their metrics? Are the things that are supposed to be getting done actually getting done? If that’s the case, I wouldn’t worry about what people are doing with their time.

    2. Blue Pen*

      But is there enough work to do from your employees’ start time and end time? And more importantly, is the work getting done and in at least acceptable condition? I get that it might be annoying to see someone take 30 minutes to socialize and get settled in, but this is nothing new in modern office life.

    3. Totally Minnie*

      Front desk jobs are a little different, though. The primary function of a front desk job is to communicate with customers. Workers will usually have a handful of other tasks that they do, like restocking brochures and tidying the reception area, but those tasks are not going to take a considerable amount of time, so most of their on the clock time will be spent either helping a customer or waiting for there to be customers that need help.

      If it’s the end of the day and you’ve already checked in the last customer and done your tidying and restocking, there’s no work left for you to do. I can totally see why the LW’s staff would grab their things during that kind of a lull, because at that point, their only official work task is “be in the building until 5:15.”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This. A lot of front desk work is being available — “engaged to wait,” basically — if the phone rings or someone comes in. Sure, you may have other duties you’re responsible for, but it’s not a big deal to take a quick minute to grab your coat or lunchbox when it’s almost time to go home.

        In this case, it seems like there is more than one person at the front so they’re not leaving it unmanned.

        1. spiriferida*

          The letter mentions wind-down tasks like turning off computers, so if I can’t do that because the client is still going to need their next appointment scheduled, but I can’t do anything else because I have to wait for their current appointment to finish… it’s a more effective use of my time to grab my coat, instead of sitting there doing nothing.

          And if clients are regularly late or otherwise require processing at the end of an appointment that keeps the receptionists here after their 5:15 end time… you bet I’m going to do everything in my power to leave on time the days I can. There is nothing more frustrating in a job like that than when staying ten-fifteen minutes late is expected, but two minutes early is a nightmare.

        2. MassMatt*

          Part of the front desk job is also being the first impression customers have of the business.

          Getting ready to leave when customers are still arriving is not giving a great impression, it makes the customer feel like they are an imposition and being rushed. If they take clients from 9-5 (or whenever) then the client coming in for the last appointment should get the same level service as earlier ones.

          Likewise, the first client of the day shouldn’t have to be kept waiting while the staff gets coffee, etc.

          1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

            I think it really depends on what “getting ready” is. Do they have their coats on and are standing glaring at the last client? That’s is a problem. Do they just have their coats on the back of their chair and putting items away on their desk. That’s not a big deal. Also, most people are going to know its the end of the day and realize that the front desk are going to be getting ready to go leave. Just like in a restaurant or grocery store there are going to be closing things to be done.

          2. Katara's side braids*

            This genuinely baffles me. I commented this above, but I simply can’t imagine being offended if I knowingly go to an establishment close to closing time and see signs that the staff do not, in fact, live at their jobs and would like to make their bus/avoid traffic/pick up their children. It’s not a different “level of service” if they still get you checked out, settled up, schedule your follow-ups, or whatever else they’re meant to do. The only difference is that they’ve partially dropped the polite fiction that they don’t have lives or other commitments outside of their jobs. If that’s so essential to you feeling like you’re getting an adequate “level of service,” maybe ask yourself why.

    4. LL*

      I’ve never worked anywhere where taking 10-15 minutes in the morning to get coffee or packing up 5-10 minutes early meaningfully impacted productivity.

  16. Tradd*

    #1 – I work at a company where remote work is not allowed. Owner doesn’t like it and that won’t change. Period. So I’m always baffled by people applying for jobs who think they should be allowed to work remote when no one else at the company is.

    1. 2e asteroid*

      That’s a fair point in general, but in this specific case she applied because the hiring manager told her the job would be remote! That seems very different from applying to random jobs and then hoping you can gumption your way into remoteness.

  17. JobLongevity*

    LW1, also consider that any job can go away at any time, including your current job. Layoffs happen all the time. I would take steps to shore up your current situation as much as possible too (consider if there are ways to build more of a cushion and make those changes if you can).

    Good luck!

    1. OP1*

      That’s so true. My current job is expanding and retains even terrible employees, so it’s never been a super present worry but definitely something to be aware of.

      My husband lost his business during COVID and it’s been a financial struggle to get back to where we were since then. The stress weighs on me daily.

      1. el l*

        Yes – it’s worth deep thinking on any job offer just how really secure it is. A good question to ask is whether it’s contingent upon one person’s good opinion of you, be that a client or an internal influential.

        That said, also worth reminding ourselves: The best chance you’ll ever have to get a raise and try to move the needle away from paycheck-to-paycheck is when you switch jobs. So if it’s not a pay bump, it doesn’t sound like a fit for your needs.

        1. OP1*

          This is such a good point. This would be an on-paper salary bump of $15k (which just shows how low my current salary is!). Not great but it does put me in a different bracket. If I were to take the position, I probably would try to leverage it into a higher bump a year or two down the road. But obviously that’s not a guarantee. Not sure I saw myself staying in my current role as long as I did, but the perks (fully remote even pre-COVID, four day workweek, ability to say no to travel) were and will be hard to let go of whenever I do.

  18. Suzy’s 5:00 Client*

    I feel like the 5:15 issue depends on the job and how it works. Do clients have appointments, or is there some expectation of which employee is taking the client(s) at the end of the day? What are the people without clients from 5 to 5:15 supposed to be doing?

    If Suzy is expecting a 5:00 client, she shouldn’t grab her stuff and have it sitting there. But if Johnny, Jimmy and Pam don’t have clients and are being made to sit there with nothing to do until 5:15 so Suzy’s client doesn’t feel like oh, they’re closing (which they are) then those three should be able to go back and grab their stuff when Suzy and her client are settled. It’s on Suzy at that point to ensure the client feels welcome. Making other people sit around for optics when the only thing they have left to do is get ready and leave is going to annoy everyone.

    Give Johnny, Jimmy and Pam real work to do for that 15 minutes or let them grab their stuff.

    1. Buffy the Redundancy Slayer*

      Agreed. There is a difference between sitting at a desk twiddling your thumbs and waiting and being visible moving around in the office space, but still easily available to do whatever “work” needs to be done. An earlier post suggested a nickel & dime mindset here and I agree. Is this manager also upset if the reception person gets up to send a fax or go to the bathroom? My guess is that is there is work to be done, it is being done. But most reception jobs have gaps and it sounds like OP is more concerned about the performative appearance of work rather than it actually being done when needed.

      1. Suzy’s 5:00 Client*

        I realize now I misread and the employees in question are working reception. That’s a little different since greeting clients is their job. But I also think if the last client is settled and their actual work is done, let them do their thing. If there is more work to do, like a check-out process when the last client is done, I agree that they should leave their coats in the back.

        It all comes down to, is there work to do or are they sitting there for optics?

    2. Colette*

      I’m thinking it’s more like a medical office – multiple front desk staff greeting clients who deal with multiple service providers – so Pam, Phylis, and Kevin are at the front desk welcoming clients are there to meet with Michael, Angela, Dwight, or Kelly.

      Since the last appointment is at 5, I’m not clear on what Pam, Phylis, and Kevin are supposed to be doing from 5 – 5:15. If a client is wait, they should be waiting, but if the last client is with their provider, does it matter if they start tidying up? Maybe it does, but the question is a vague enough that I’m not sure. (And are the appointments 15 minutes? If so, what happens if the client gets there at 5:05 – do the front desk staff have to wait?)

      I’ve had appointments where the front desk staff will leave while I’m in there so they ask if I can pay beforehand; it’s not a big deal from a client perspective.

      But maybe it is a big deal in the OP’s situation! So it comes down to what the real impact is on the clients and employees.

  19. A Book about Metals*

    I’m not sure of the answer to #3, but how long does it really take to “pack up” ? When I was working in the office I’d simply grab my coat, put a couple things in my backpack and head out.. Just took a minute or so

    1. JustKnope*

      Agree. It feels a little crazy-making to see people referring to not letting employees pack up on the clock as “wage theft.” Grabbing your coat and getting ready to walk out the door are not work tasks.

    2. 2 Cents*

      Ah, then you didn’t have my company-provided computer that I needed to transport back and forth due to hot desking that could take upwards of 15 minutes to shut down.

      2. Yankees fans are awesome*

        Okay, but it’s obvious that that’s a different situation than simply getting a coat and dropping a couple of items into a backpack.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          I’m not convinced it is obvious? They’re going to get their stuff from a breakroom. Then coming back. If the break room is far enough away that it eats into meaningful work time, but they can’t leave without doing it, aren’t allowed to keep their stuff at their desk, then they should be paid for the time it takes to go and come back. But if it’s not a meaningful amount of time, then who the heck cares if it’s done on the clock anyway?

    3. Off the clock*

      Yes, I had the same question. I had a former boss who was irritated when I left at 5:00 instead of performatively waiting until 5:15 or so.

      I was a receptionist, paid minimum wage, and there to answer phones and talk to customers. I’d been there for nine hours and wanted to go home! (Working through lunch was the general expectation for no discernable reason.) I wasn’t doing anything that required much concentration after about 4:30 because I was tired. By 5:00, I’d already asked the boss if he needed anything, wrapped up email, and made a to-do list for the next day.

      We did not have customers after 4:00, the phones automatically rolled over to the answering service, and my purse and coat were stored under my desk. “Getting ready to leave” took literally 30 seconds, and if I got out the door quickly, it cut my commute time down significantly. It achieved nothing if I waited around just to look busy.

      I absolutely had to be there, clocked in and working by 7:59am. 5pm was my time again.

      1. linger*

        Boss irritated by you leaving earlier also started later in the morning, I’m guessing.
        ‘Cause the only work hours that matter are their work hours. /s

    4. Dinwar*

      It’s highly variable. I’ve done the “Grab coat, get out the door” thing. I’ve also had to spend 20 minutes verifying that all my project-related documents were under lock and key, that the computer is turned off, that my access card has been turned in and I’m officially signed out, etc–a process that could take between 10 and 20 minutes, depending on how busy certain folks I had to check in with were. I’ve also worked in field offices where it was common to spend 30 minutes on an informal end-of-day debriefing.

      If you have an assigned desk it takes less time to wrap up–it’s your desk, you can leave stuff there. If you don’t, it takes longer–you need to make it clean for the next person. If your job requires equipment, cleaning, or other activities it can add time to it. If there are any sort of sensitive documents it can take a lot longer, depending on the documents.

      So basically, without knowing a lot more, we can’t really evaluate how long it should reasonably take to wrap up at the end of the day.

      1. Observer*

        I’ve also had to spend 20 minutes verifying that all my project-related documents were under lock and key, that the computer is turned off, that my access card has been turned in and I’m officially signed out,

        And all of that should be work time.

        Making coffee and eating breakfast is one setting up and tearing down your *work required equipment* is another thing. That needs to be paid time.

        1. Dinwar*

          I’m a coffee drinker; if you’re making coffee for the team, I’m willing to pay the five minutes it takes! Plus, most of the people I work with use this time fairly wisely–takes forever for our computers to boot up (thanks to security software), and making coffee is more productive than sitting at your desk watching the loading screen. And the amount of work that gets done in random conversations while waiting for the pot to brew is non-trivial–one reason we make a pot first thing in the morning is so the cleaning staff have fresh coffee, because we learned a long time ago keeping them happy pays huge dividends.

          Eating breakfast…yeah, I’ll agree with you. Either do that while working, or do that at home. I don’t mind someone having a biscuit while they’re reading reports or writing something or whatever, but just eating breakfast seems odd to me.

    5. Jackalope*

      I mentioned this above but for me it takes 20 min to change and get all of my bike gear on, get everything stowed in my panniers, etc. I’m an outlier in my office at least, but it does legit take that long for me to get ready to go home (and 10 min or so in the morning to leave, although that’s faster since I pack things up the night before).

    6. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      It sounds like they have to keep their things away from the front. So I’m wondering how far is the coat closet or wherever they keep their items. If its far from their desk I don’t see a problem with getting their bag and coat ahead of time.
      If they have their coats and stuff on and are just standing their waiting for the last client to leave, I can see how that could look unprofessional. Also, if they are turning off the computers, etc at 5 when they should do that at 5:15 that is a problem.

  20. HailRobonia*

    #4: I work at a university and like to say “you can’t say the word ‘difficulty’ without ‘faculty’!”

    (Variation: there are two kinds of professors. Faculty and “diffaculty.”)

    1. Foxglove Beardtongue*

      I worked on higher Ed for years and never heard that and now I’m mad. If I ever go back (dog forbid), though, I will remember this.

  21. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    1. My sympathies, because I get the impression you’re desperately looking to move out of a very toxic environment at work and NEED a job that you can live on while there’s nothing in your area? Been there and it sucks so much arse.

    (For context I left a job where if I stayed any longer my mental state would have shattered and was recently disabled so I can’t travel far anymore)

    Is it technically possible to argue WFH as an accomodation? Yes, but you have to bring some exceptional skills or experience to the table if the company culture (or in this case the CEO) is against it because it means your new manager has to fight for you. In my experience if you’ve got a disability you have to fight even harder (‘why should we hire inconvienient X who won’t come to the office when we can get Joe up the road who’ll do it?’).

    It’s a major battle with no guarantee of winning and can do an even larger number on your mental state. What I did was a temporary switch to unrelated work just to keep a roof over my head.

  22. Dinwar*

    #3 reminds me of when I worked as a cook. We always started cleaning early–after a few months you get a really good sense of when things are going to slow down, and we had over an hour of routine cleaning (plus periodic deep cleanings that took forever), so we always started early.

    If someone came in two minutes before close and ordered food, I’d still make it. It’s an extra round of cleaning, but the boss made it very clear when I was hired that this was not optional. Occasionally gave us bonuses if it was something absurd, but in general we were just expected to do it.

    Depending on your industry, I wonder if it would be worth it to change your hours. Either tell customers that the last appointment/walk-in is at 4:45, or tell employees that their official hours are until 5:15 (and that they will be paid accordingly!). Obviously employees think they need some time to get things together before getting out the door, so it is probably worth it to provide that time. Otherwise it’s going to come off as expecting them to work extra unpaid hours. You may not see gathering your things and getting to the bus as work, but your employees obviously do, and since it’s stuff they do in order to provide the company with services I’m on their side. (If I asked folks to stay 15 minutes extra without pay I would be in serious legal trouble.)

    1. HailRobonia*

      In college I worked at a deli/cafe/restaurant and encountered similar situations. I decided to lean into it and take is as an opportunity to fish for extra tips… the phrase “we’re closing but for you I am happy to help!” can work wonders.

    2. Bike Walk Barb*

      The official hours are 8:15-5:15 with an hour for lunch so they’re on the clock until 5:15 and being paid for it. From what OP wrote they need to be available that last quarter hour in case the last client’s appointment runs a bit long or something needs to be done on the computer so they really can’t shut down until 5:15.

      I’m salaried now but worked hourly and as an admin and can’t recall any boss ever paying attention to when I got my coat and bag any more than they watched what time I went down the hall to the bathroom. From reading other letters here I know I’ve clearly been lucky! But no front desk person can be there 100% of the time. Stepping away for a couple of minutes is going to happen, period. Saying they can’t step away for this one particular purpose doesn’t seem valid in terms of job performance.

      If the issue is the clutter at the front desk, tell them they can’t have stuff out that signals to clients that they’re an imposition.

      If the issue is two admins leaving the desk unattended, tell them they need to have one person at the desk at all times.

      These are both clear, specific, and job-related.

      If the coat/bag/stuff is out of sight under the admin’s desk, how is that harming anything? (assuming you can’t provide a coat rack and storage as others have suggested)

      Without more explanation, “I don’t want you to have access to your stuff 5 or 10 minutes before you’re going to need it” doesn’t feel really job-related.

  23. Poison I.V. drip*

    It’s 20/20 hindsight now, but it seems to me if you pump at work you should probably set yourself up with a couple of alllies among your coworkers who will have your back in situations like this. I realize that won’t be possible everywhere.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      No? How are you supposed to set yourself up with allies? Send around a survey: how should I feed my baby — (a) buy formula (b) pump milk out of my boobs during the workday? Unless you know of other moms who’ve pumped in the office, how in the world are you supposed to bring it up? I told my boss: “I need to block out this time to pump in order to feed my baby. When I WFH, I can work while pumping, but when I’m at the office, the room isn’t big enough for my laptop, so I can’t” and that was the end of the conversation. The LW obviously feels very ashamed about this whole situation. Talking to more people about it isn’t going to make her feel better.

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        I’m assuming they mean someone that you can text and say “I had to run out the door last night and left my pump supplies out; could you pack them up for me?” But as someone who pumped at work (albeit in a space solely dedicated and furnished for that purpose) I honestly can’t name a single person who I would feel comfortable sending that request to…and I work with great people who I like very much. It’s not asking someone to collect the charger I left in the conference room, it’s medical equipment!

      2. Dahlia*

        …it means “make friends”. Because a lot of friends wouldn’t mind giving a rinse to some plastic pieces and wiping down a table for you if you had an emergency.

        This is a little dramatic.

      3. Ginger Cat Lady*

        I wouldn’t mind occasionally helping out someone in her situation, and I think what Poison IV drop means is think about who might have your back in a situation like that. Building good relationships with coworkers where you can do small favors for each other can be a very useful thing. And not just a parent thing, either. A coworker once took an afternoon off to have lunch with her husband and drive into the city for a show. Realized she’d left her coat – and keys in the pocket! – at work. Since it was a Friday and she didn’t want to go the whole weekend without her coat and keys, she asked if I could bring them and drop them off at her house. We live about a mile apart, I was happy to help. She has given me a lift on a day when my car is in the shop. We’re not friends, exactly, but we have a friendly relationship. I’ve also spoken up in meetings when someone tried to claim her ideas. “When Suzy first told me about this idea last fall, Suzy envisioned……” and “Yes, Bob, it is a great a idea, and I’m glad Suzy suggested it.” type stuff. I know she’s have my back the same way if Bob ever tried that again. (I doubt he will, it did not endear him to the rest of the team.)
        No surveys needed, no requiring approval, etc. Just friendly helpful relationships with coworkers.
        And maybe, just maybe, talking about it gets rid of the shame and stigma she has had. Talking about stuff instead of hiding it does tend to do that.

  24. Enn Pee*

    To LW#4 – if the emails are frequent or distracting, and there is truly nothing you need to hear from this professor, I’d recommend routing all of his emails to your Trash. (I recently did this for emails from someone I never want to hear from again, and it’s really improved my mood!)

  25. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #3 The employees should be allowed to complete work shutdown – notes for the next day, filling in timesheets, clearing desks, switching off computers, washing coffee mugs etc – during the last 15 minutes of paid time.

    However, imo collecting coats, boots and bags is not work, so it is reasonable to require that this be done at 5:15pm.
    If the OP wants this, then she should clearly say so rather than dropping hints or looking irritated. Not “I’d rather you..” but “you need to …”

  26. CallYourMother*

    LW #2 – I hope you read this comment. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Literally nothing. Does your office have a lunch room? Are you telling me no one has ever left a spot of coffee, chili, dried peanut butter etc on the counter?

    This situation reflects the undue burden placed on new parents. Most people pump because they do not have adequate (if any) paid parental leave. Most workplace do not provide adequate support e.g. culture and friendly-policies. Many don’t even meet the legal minimum e.g. pumping room. Because pumping often involves the intersection of workplace, cultural hangups, and breasts, it creates a lot of weird unnecessary issues (that have nothing to do with you). I would guess this isn’t the only incident reflecting a less than friendly working mom culture. Why did the meeting run over? Why did you feel like you couldn’t leave to take care of a medical need? Be weary of your workplace and the Mom Penalty. I’ve been in similar situations, it sucks and feels like you are the problem. You are not.

    Please know there are other people out there who don’t see a “messy” pumping room, but see how hard you are working, how dedicated you are.

    1. samwise*

      The fact that the only place OP can pump is in a crappy supply closet without a lock tells us everything we need to know about how supportive this employer is.

      1. Drought*

        Yeah it wasnt lost on me that the state of the pumping room was of no concern until a spot of milk dropped from a flange and then it was red alert.

    2. NotYourMomOrMaid*

      It’s not a spot of coffee. It’s also the dirty equipment used to make the coffee, with the coffee dried in it next to the spot left for parts of 3 days.

      And it’s not coffee, it’s a bodily fluid that smells when left unrefrigerated.

      1. HonorBox*

        This isn’t a very helpful or kind comment. First and foremost, this is a supply closet that OP is having to use. Second, because it is a supply closet, it is likely not a place that people would be regularly. This isn’t the kitchen. Third, there were extenuating circumstances that caused the problem. Fourth, this is the one and only time this has happened.

        I’ve had employees who have pumped at work. Never in a million years would I have reacted like this to a one-time situation. And I sure as hell wouldn’t have expected one of those employees to pump in a room that DOESN’T LOCK and sounds incredibly uncomfortable. At my last workplace, I had an employee who needed to pump. Her office had windows, luckily with great window treatments on them, and a door that locked. But she and I definitely discussed alternatives because I wanted to ensure she was comfortable being able to pump at work.

        1. NotYourMomOrMaid*

          Downplaying this as a “spot of coffee” isn’t helpful either. It is more serious than that.

          1. Observer*

            You are not in a position to complain about mis-stating the severity of the problem, considering how wildly off base your assessment is.

            It’s not a spot of coffee. It’s a spot of coffee *with milk*. The horror!

            And the dirty machine is even less of a big deal, because unlike a coffee pot that is probably shared, no one needs to use the LW’s pump.

      2. Observer*

        And it’s not coffee, it’s a bodily fluid that smells when left unrefrigerated.

        *exactly* like the milk in the coffee.

        Please stop trying to play this off as some big deal. It’s not.

      3. Dahlia*

        No one else is going to use her pumping equipment.

        Have you ever actually left out milk? Like not a glass, a few drops. It doesn’t really stink. Like if you have a glass of milk, drink it and leave it on your counter, your house won’t smell like bad milk. It’ll just dry down to a sticky film in a couple hours.

  27. anonymous here*

    OP #4.
    Go to the graduate director for your department/major. You can also go to the department chair.

    This man is an emeritus professor = he is not a current member of the faculty. Some emeriti are wonderful and productive, or are important and have clout despite not being on the faculty. That is not this person. It’s very sad — I suspect he is lonely and misses being a faculty member, is feeling left out and unimportant. Which is why he’s pushy with students — they don’t have power and they don’t know how to respond to unprofessional and unpleasant behavior like this.

    Stop responding to his requests. And if you can keep him out of your peer sessions, do so.

    1. Hyaline*

      Yeah–I admit that my reaction (NOT being someone currently dealing with his annoying tendencies!) was “aw, shoot, this guy is probably not dealing with retirement well/is bored, lonely, or feeling unmoored/maybe even experiencing some cognitive decline.” But it’s definitely not the LW’s job or her peers’ job to deal with that!

  28. Parenthesis Guy*

    #2: I’m not sure I would say anything to my boss in your situation. It seems like due to the mutual discomfort that you’d both be happier pretending it didn’t happen. If he brings it up, I’d make sure to apologize and probably just try to forget about it as soon as possible.

    I don’t think it’s a big deal, but it’s probably more embarrassing than actually problematic. Best to try and get past it as soon as possible.

    I also think this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but you asked us not to make that argument.

  29. Drought*

    In umpteen years working in offices I have never worked anywhere that micromanaged leaving like this that wasn’t an absolutely terrible place to work in every other way.

    2. Myrin*

      That’s pretty mean towards a boss who cared enough to write in and ask for advice and even acknowledged that she might be overly critical and would like to hear Alison’s take!

      1. Dr. Rebecca*

        I didn’t read it as toward the boss, but toward the workplace culture. I had a situation like this where the *boss* was fine, but his father who owned the place…nope. Not fine. As the saying goes, shit rolls downhill; if the people at the bottom aren’t happy, it’s often because there’s a problem higher up, which may not be the LW.

      2. Saturday*

        I agree – I understand her concern for her clients experience, and she’s intentionally set her staff’s working hours to end at 5:15 with this in mind. As you said, she’s asking if she’s being too critical, not just dumping on the staff about it. People really tend to view bosses harshly here in general I think.

  30. JelloStapler*

    yes, if other professors said to stop replying, go with that for sure. they have probably been on the receiving end of it too.

    if he ramps up, is there an Ombudsman, Dean or Provost that can tell him to stop?

  31. Dust Bunny*

    LW1 don’t take that job. One, it sounds like a lousy job overall, regardless of your work-location preferences, but also it’s not going to be the situation you want. “Interesting” isn’t going to compensate (and I rather doubt it will be as interesting as you hope). Right now you’re hoping it will be something that the evidence you’ve presented says it won’t. Keep looking.

    1. I Have RBF*

      Yeah, the grass is not always greener. The new job looks possibly more toxic than the current one with it being “butts in seats” type management. (Aside: I literally got written up one time for referring to in-office demands being “butts in seats management”. The polite phrasing is therefore “presence based management”, as opposed to “results based management.”)

  32. ThatGirl*

    Reading a lot of these comments to no. 3 is making me exceptionally glad nobody is nickle-and-diming my time and that I don’t have to clock in or out. I know there are jobs out there where coverage is important and there truly is a lot of work to do (I’ve worked in customer service and retail jobs!) but thank goodness nobody gives me the third degree if I leave “early”, because I’ve shown I am trustworthy and always get my work done.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      If there are still clients then work isn’t over. That’s not nickel and diming–that’s completing the job before you start packing up.

      I’m hourly but nobody GAF if I leave “early”, within reason (we’re sorta coverage-based), and long as my work hours add up, and we can tell clients to leave by 5:00, but I can’t leave without making sure whoever I’m assisting is supported.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I’m talking more about the comments than the original letter – yes, if there are still clients around, there’s still work to do. But that’s not what I’m referencing.

  33. Empress Ki*

    3 : OP, when I read the title, I expected that you were going to complain about staff getting ready a couple of minutes before 5, but 10-20 minutes is a lot ! I don’t think you are wrong.
    I finish at 6. I start to lock up computer and gather my things at 57/58 but not before that.
    I don’t think my manager would be happy if I did it earlier than that (unless we have a prior arrangement.

    1. Totally Minnie*

      I think a lot of this depends on what “getting ready to leave” entails. From the way the LW describes it, I got the impression that it was mostly just that staff went to the back room to collect their things, and brought their stuff back to the front desk with them and kept doing their job until actual closing time. It doesn’t sound like they’re shutting down computers in a way that makes them unable to help customers or turning off lights or anything along those lines. If you’ve got a spare 5 minutes in the 20 minutes leading up to the end of the day, I don’t see anything wrong with using those 5 minutes to grab your bag and put it somewhere that will make leaving easier at the end of the day.

      1. HonorBox*

        If staff can put stuff somewhere nearby to make leaving easier, no problem. But if stuff is sitting on the desk, the optics for clients might be that they’re putting staff out by having a late appointment. If someone’s jacket is hanging on the back of their chair and purse/backpack is at their feet on the floor… no harm, no foul. But if someone has lots of stuff sitting on the desk, it doesn’t convey the same thing to a late client as the first or fourth client that day experiences.

  34. Murph*

    For #2, I have been shocked at how messy I am at pumping! I am normally a pretty neat person, but there is no way to keep breastmilk from dripping while you are pumping, storing, and moving the milk/supplies. Are they giving you Clorox wipes for this? If not, you should advocate/ask for some. From a fellow pumping mom, you have done nothing wrong!

    I realized yesterday that my coworker was in my office while my full pumping bottles were still on my desk because I hadn’t gotten a chance to put them away yet. At first, I felt embarrassed. Then I thought, she doesn’t seem to mind. It’s clear I jumped into this project right after a pump session. And I put them away after.

    I have found it helpful to take Alison’s approach/attitude that OF COURSE everyone will be understanding of your pumping needs because OF COURSE they want to be supportive of working mothers, both at my current workplace (very supportive) and a new job I’m negotiating with. It’s nerve-wracking, but giving everyone the benefit of the doubt has helped me make everyone else look good and not let it take up space in my brain.

  35. ZSD*

    #3 Do the front desk staff have access to a secure drawer (or safe) at their desk big enough to store their bags? If so, have them store their stuff there, and that way they can wait until 5:15 to take it out rather than having to go to a different room to grab their stuff. If they don’t have access to a large storage space at the front desk, then provide one.

  37. MillennialHR*

    Hey LW #2 – I’m a currently pumping new mom (my baby is almost 7 months old). I’ve been pumping at work since I went back at 12 weeks (and I understand how lucky I am that I got a full 12 weeks).

    You did nothing wrong. There’s nothing to apologize for. Boobs exist, and this is the purpose for which they do exist. You’re doing an amazing job feeding your baby and working at the same time, and the last thing you should feel is embarrassment or shame.

    When I first came back to work I was nervous about cleaning my pump in front of people in the kitchen because, well, the stigma around breasts and breastfeeding, and I work in an office of mostly women who are all mostly moms, and my VP is a man, but also a dad, who has been supportive of my breastfeeding choice! Your pump is a piece of medical equipment, not a sexual item, and milk is just that – milk. Has anyone ever spilled coffee creamer on a counter? It looks the same! You’re doing the best you can. Seeing a piece of medical equipment *should* not be a problem when they expect you to pump in a room that others have access to. I would also advocate for a better pumping setup and a lock!

  38. CubeFarmer*

    RE LW #2: Be blunt. I sometimes think certain professions lend themselves to people who don’t pick up on normal social cues (I’ve said NO, and constant badgering isn’t going to change my mind.)

    I just had a situation with a sales rep who would not listen to what I actually needed. After three requests where he wanted to push the conversation into his standard sales pitch instead of giving me what I needed, I simply said, “I’ve asked three times for X, and since you can’t provide that, your company isn’t a good fit for us. Please stop contacting me.” I promptly blocked his email address and I’ll ignore/block his calls when he inevitably reaches out.

  39. Dawn*

    LW4 – make an email filter that marks his emails as read and sends them directly to the trash. Seriously. You’ll feel much better and it sounds like you’re hardly the only one so you’re not going to stand out in so doing.

  40. HonorBox*

    OP3 – Without knowing the exact nature of the business and the length of the appointments, it is difficult to fully answer. I’m going to make an assumption though, based on experience I’ve had with some appointment-based providers, like a chiropractor I saw for awhile. Appointments were scheduled and sometimes the chiropractor stayed longer based on the patient’s need. I’d arrive, get checked in, and then by the time I was done with the appointment, the front desk staff was gone – either for the day or for lunch. If this is similar to what’s happening – where the front desk staff checks people in, takes payment, and doesn’t interact much/at all following, expecting them to be “at work” until the last client arrives makes sense… provided you’re paying them from 8:15 to 5:15 entirely. And if that’s the case, I don’t think there’s anything at all wrong with requiring them to keep their coats, purses, backpacks, personal items out of view of the clients until they’ve checked in. You want to give everyone the same attention and sense of importance regardless of when they arrive. And you want to convey the same appearance at 5:00 pm that you do at 10:30 am. Maybe you change coverage, so that instead of multiple people waiting for the last client, you only have one. Or maybe you provide a better place for them to put their stuff so they can lock up and walk out right at 5:15 rather than have to run to the back to gather it up. I’m understanding of being ready to walk out the door at quitting time… I am generally ready to go when it is time to go. BUT, it also shouldn’t be a situation that makes clients feel like they’re getting short changed nor should it be something that is allowed to creep backward and backward so that the 4:45 client is met by someone returning from the back with their coat and lunch box.

  41. Dawn*

    LW3 – if this is a job requirement, then treat it as a job requirement. You don’t have to “convince them” of anything – you just have to tell them that it’s a requirement of their job and that there may be discipline if that requirement isn’t met, and then follow through on that if needed.

    You’re the boss! You don’t need everyone to agree with you in order to enforce rules.

  42. mcm*

    for LW3, I would approach that conversation first with curiosity. There have definitely been work situations in my life where I was trying to leave as close to on the dot as possible to make a train etc. A few minutes can also make the difference between a train/bus you can comfortably get on and one that might be so packed you’ll have to wait for the next (and the next and the next)… this may seem like something that’s off the clock, but really, if 3 minutes saves someone an hour getting home, hopefully you can have some compassion for why they are so eager to leave.
    If there’s no particular reason and it’s just general eagerness to leave, then I think it makes sense to insist upon things looking welcoming at the front. But I’ve often been in the position where a boss who drives, or lives closer to the office, doesn’t consider how timely you have to be for a long commute on public transit. I think you gain a lot by being considerate of those circumstances, if that is something that’s contributing.

    1. HonorBox*

      I get where you’re coming from, but if working hours are 8:15-5:15, people should understand that it might mean that they’re walking out at 5:16. There’s compassion for someone who needs to catch a train, but also understanding that a client at 5:00 shouldn’t feel any different than a client who is there at 9:00. And if bags are packed and coats are on, that won’t feel the same.

      1. Lily Potter*

        a client at 5:00 shouldn’t feel any different than a client who is there at 9:00. And if bags are packed and coats are on, that won’t feel the same.

        Perhaps an analogy would be appropriate here. I have worked as an Election Judge for many years. State law says that any person who is in line to vote at 8 pm gets to vote. Our Head Judge’s directive is that any person voting gets the same experience at 8 pm as at 8 am. In other words, until the last voter has left the polling place (and some arrive at 7:59 and then take an hour to vote – no exaggeration!) we as judges stay at our stations. We do not take down signs off the walls. We do not remove the flag at the door. We do not all leave our stations to go get snacks or drinks. We do not goof off on our phones. We do not tear down all voting booths or move tables around. To do any of this might be construed (rightly, IMO) as rushing a voter out the door. Only once the last voter has left do we start the lengthy process of shutting down the polling place. That last voter is no doubt keenly aware that they’re the last one in the place. We as Election Judges don’t need to make matters worse by doing things to make him/her feel like an imposition.

        Likewise, OP3 is trying to avoid a perception of an empty office or that the person with the appointment of the day is an imposition. I can completely see where a person walking in at 5:01 to check in is going to feel less than welcomed if the receptionist has her winter coat on her chair and all her take-home stuff piled on the desk (screams “I’m outta here!”) or even worse if the receptionist is nowhere to be found because she’s in the back room getting all her stuff from the coat room.

        1. Kesnit*

          Except elections are only held a few times a year (at most). There is a difference between a 12-hour day 1-3 times a year, and being told that every work day, you have to extend your work day because leaving at 5:18 rather than 5:15 means missing a bus/train/etc and having to wait for the next.

        2. Insert Clever Name Here*

          It is good that your head judge takes it seriously that no voter feels like they are being rushed, but I’m uncomfortable with the idea of applying that same requirement to every other place I walk into though I can’t quite put my finger on why. Maybe because scheduling my next appointment is a much more mundane and normal thing than deciding on who to elect to make decisions that will impact many areas of my life? And a poll worker literally taking steps to turn the polling location back into the high school cafeteria feels much more aggressive and hurrying than the receptionist having her purse on the desk and coat on the back of her chair.

      2. Totally Minnie*

        I’m not trying to be mean here, and I will try to phrase this as kindly as I can.

        It’s difficult to keep reading comments about how the last customer of the day shouldn’t be made to feel like they’re causing an inconvenience to staff when, as someone who worked in customer service for 20 years, it was clear to me that the vast majority of my customers did not care whether they were inconveniencing me or treating me with respect or courtesy in my workplace.

        A lot of the comments for this letter are focusing on how staff should put their own convenience aside for the sake of the customer, and yes, to a large degree, that’s the job. But a lot of the people making those comments have never held the kind of job where whether they get to go home on time is entirely dependent on the whims of strangers who are very likely to treat them badly. When you regularly have to stay past your end time because a customer was late or was demanding things you cannot provide, it wears on you pretty heavily.

        This is especially true post-Covid, there was a pretty well documented spike in incivility when society reopened after the shut down, and it’s the primary reason I don’t work in customer service anymore. At a certain point, when this is how customers treat you, you kind of lose the ability to care if they feel they’re getting your undivided attention.

      3. I Have RBF*

        How much stuff are we talking about? A coat, with hat and gloves stuffed in the pockets, a backpack with lunchbox inside it, and maybe a purse? Because if the person is dragging half of their house with them to a receptionist job, they need to re-evaluate.

        When I worked in office, I would at most have a backpack with laptop, etc, a lunchbox because it wouldn’t fit in my backpack, and my jacket. The backpack filled in for a purse, or had the purse stuffed in it when I still carried one.

        IMO, you shouldn’t be carrying your entire skincare and vitamin supply to work, or a bunch of other non-essential tchotckes. My backpack had my First Aid Kit, my laptop and trackball, and a few other minor bits, and I would periodically clean it out. I am always aghast at people who have a backpack, huge purse, big lunch box, and an extra grocery bag of stuff that they hauled back and forth every day. They look like a pack mule.

  43. Sunflower*

    #1 Stay put until you find a job without all those red flags. Especially the low pay and high insurance premium. You don’t want them to promise one thing and then pull a fast one. You’d be stuck with a daily 2.5 hour commute or move to a place 2.5 hours away from your current house, neighborhood, and your children’s school.

  44. FunkyMunky*

    #1 “Salary is market-low and healthcare premiums are extremely expensive, but the work seems interesting.” nope, don’t do it

    1. Just Thinkin' Here*

      Right? Let’s ignore the whole commute thing, why would you take the position anyhow? If it’s not paying what someone is worth and the benefits are terrible, then keep looking elsewhere.

  45. Dee*

    The more I read about professors in higher education here, the more I question if a lot of them are truly in it to educate others or just to further their own gains. Not trying to overgeneralize or paint all educators in that light.

    1. Dr. Rebecca*

      Many of us aren’t really *taught* to teach, and many see teaching responsibilities as secondary to research. It even goes as far as our rank/position designations: I’m a “teaching assistant professor,” where if I was on a different track, I would just be “assistant professor.” And yes, many who focus on research never actually go out of their way to learn to teach, either, even if they know it’s going to be part of their duties. Whole system is in dire need of a sweeping overhaul.

    2. DancinProf*

      In my experience (coming up on 20 years in higher ed), universities have their own very strong cultural norms and lots of profs have had little to no professional experience outside the academy. Older faculty, especially, can get accustomed to a lot of privilege and a lot of autonomy. And it creeps up without one noticing: reading the earlier comments made me realize that I’m hoarding university library books because our library doesn’t enforce due dates on faculty check-outs. In 20 years I’ll have books stacked up to the ceiling in my office–but hopefully I won’t be bothering any grad sudents!

    3. Hroethvitnir*

      In most of academia, lecturers are researchers with teaching as an additional expectation (salaried: research is easily full time on its own). It sucks from both sides, because being good at research is not remotely the same skill as being good at teaching.

      There used to be more room for people whose primary strength and drive is teaching, but yeah. An awful lot of faculty either teaches because they have to or really genuinely want to educate but are crap at it.

      Caveats: I’m in Aotearoa, but it seems loosely similar internationally. I also only know sciences, so while I think humanities are similar, I can’t really speak for that.

    4. Scholarly Publisher*

      The vast majority of professors want their students to learn.

      That said, at a research university, a professor’s job is first to research and to disseminate the results of that research. Teaching undergrads is secondary; a brilliant teacher who hasn’t published can be denied tenure while a medicore teacher with multiple well-received articles or a book (depending on field) gets tenure.

      (The people who are teaching the undergrads are often adjuncts, poorly paid temps with no job security or benefits. They’re doing it for love of the subject and in the hopes that they’ll eventually get a permanent job, which almost certainly isn’t going to happen.)

    5. Pescadero*

      They are (at research universities) truly in it to educate the world through their research.

      They are not truly in it to TEACH university students.

      …and they are rewarded for research – but being a great teacher without research dollars means you probably never even get tenure.

  46. TSB*

    LW4: I work in higher education, and my advice is to bring this to the dean or department chair (whichever administrative role would have been this guy’s direct boss before he was emeritus). That person is in the best position to diplomatically but firmly tell him to knock it off, and perhaps constructively redirect his energies elsewhere. Ideally, you’d do this as a group, focusing on the distraction and pressure it puts on all of you as you pursue your own scholarship.

  47. fhqwhgads*

    LW3 is confusing to me and I think might actually be a little overreacting. The letter says the last client is at 5, but the 5:15 end time is in case they’re a little late. If the reason not to get ready early is truly about the perception of the last client, then presuming that last client already arrived – and presuming their entire appointment isn’t with the front desk person, how is it a problem for them to start getting ready at, say 5:05p so they can be out the door at 5:15?
    It seems like the problem isn’t so much “don’t start getting ready til 5:15” but “don’t start getting ready until after the last person of the day is settled”. Perhaps that amounts to the same thing? But the letter makes it sound like they’re two different things. Right now it sounds like LW is saying they’re upset on the clients’ behalf, but actually upset just about the time. To know if you’re being reasonable, you gotta cross reference. Are you upset because it’s not 5:15 yet or because the last client isn’t in yet? Then adjust from there.

  49. ZIPPIDY*

    As someone who just finished a grad program as an adult student, the elderly male professors are generally THE. WORST. Everything is about their own work, and they continually fail to show up for their students and supervisees. They only appear if they can shine a light on their own work. Honestly all the students complained about it and the department could do 0. So yeah, feel no guilt. Do not respond. I’m so happy that some of the younger male professors and all the women showed up constantly and went above and beyond. The old tenured male cohort will be gone soon and good riddance.

  50. Me*

    I see #4 as three problems:
    -He is turning peer teaching sessions into an “all about me show.” Which means that the students are not getting the sessions they need.
    -He is trying to get students to sign their work over to him so that he is the only one who can use the students’ work.
    -He is pushing students to do free work for him.

    OP, why aren’t professors/deans/other people with power telling him to knock it off? Being emeritus should not give someone unlimited power.

    1. OP 4*

      Hit the nail on the head! To your question, I answered this in another reply but essentially no one wants to take him on and to change the status quo now after years of this behaviour.

      1. Lilian Field*

        In classic AMA fashion: the real problem here is not this emeritus member, but your chair, who should be handling this situation very differently. (Speaking as a faculty member, who has not seen your other reply yet).

  51. Lilian Field*

    Faculty here, responding to grad student letter–are these peer teaching sessions, the ones being ruined by the emeritus faculty member, run as part of a graduate course? If so, it’s the job of the person teaching the course to put a stop to the problem. It’s a classic AMA situation–the real problem might not be the offender, but the person whose job it is to supervise the offender.

    If the peer teaching sessions are just generally part of the program, the most conventional way to handle this would be to go in a group of affected graduate students, first to the Director of Graduate Studies or equivalent, and then to the Chair. (The DGS would likely have to go to the Chair, themselves, anyway, before helping you out in any meaningful way, but you might want to honor the chain of command.) You could also go to both administrators at once; that would be fine, although a bit more aggressive. Collect these harassing emails, all of you, and bring them in as evidence. Handle it as if you were making a formal complaint, which you are. At the same time, be as discreet as you can. This whole thing is likeliest to go well if the emeritus scholar is allowed to save face.

    Even if the peer teaching sessions *are* part of a grad course with a single instructor, you could still take the DGS/Chair road, but I would definitely start with the instructor.

    A decent chair will put a stop to this emeritus’ behavior; this kind of cat herding is a significant proportion of the job of being a department chair.

  52. cheap ass rolling with it*

    LW1 – If you take the job and spend more time commuting you will not have the energy or time to look for another job. You are remote now, use the time you have (from not commuting) to look for a better job.

    Job searching takes time. You don’t have to take the first offer that comes.

  53. Raida*

    2. I accidentally left the pumping room a mess

    It’s bodily fluids, and can smell.
    There’s reason to feel mortified.

    Don’t necessarily need to *apologise* but I would be very direct about it just like if it were a work task that was completed but had an unexpected issue – Here is what happened (mess left out), I know why (time crunch and worry for kid), I’m taking responsibility for it (here i am saying that was me and nobody else), I’ve made changes (go in with a damp cloth to do a wipe down and the storage container which I could take home to clean if needed), I am responsible for it happening again.
    Do you want any details (all the bits in brackets) or the issue and the intended solution or is this sufficient?

  54. TaiL*

    I had a boss like this many years ago who insisted that we be “on” 100% all day, meaning no eating or personal interactions ever. I worked there for maybe 2 weeks and then quit. I don’t need that in my life. I am professional 98% of the time, but sometimes, yeah, I might need to call a doctor’s office or speak with my vet. I think this manager should speak with the employees and see what this is about. It might be about day care (child, pet or elderly parent), school (I’m in school after work, sometimes it’s tight!) or whatever else. I’m a person who keeps all my stuff in my bag, has a system for keeping food and drink cold without using the break room, and keeps my coat on a rack in my office. Can OP maybe figure this out so that people don’t need ten minutes to pack up?

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